# Firearms and Shooting > Projects and Home Builds >  Shotgun-9mm thing

## Toby

Righto first things first I was thinking something like this.



Barrel length suggestions? I was thinking where the scribes at

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## veitnamcam

Good photo shop skills.:thumbup: :Grin: 

Id go 5mm over min legal length as your insert is short as so you gain nothing by extra length except perhaps smoother swing which is sort of irellevent in this case?

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## Toby

Is min length 762mm?

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## veitnamcam

> Is min length 762mm?


Ill quote you but don't quote me when i say"yea think that's it"

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## gimp

762mm is minimum. Make it 763mm with a full-length 9mm barrel pinned inside the shotgun tube. Probably best to do in a 20ga or similar as a 12ga with a 9mm tube filling it out might get Heavy. Also make sure the action can take the pressure.... pretty sure SAAMI max for 9mm is much higher than any shotshell cartridge

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## gimp

For the love of god don't put a damn VFG on it

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## Toby

Yup just checked, 762mm, think I'll go 800mm still

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## Toby

> 762mm is minimum. Make it 763mm with a full-length 9mm barrel pinned inside the shotgun tube. Probably best to do in a 20ga or similar as a 12ga with a 9mm tube filling it out might get Heavy. Also make sure the action can take the pressure.... pretty sure SAAMI max for 9mm is much higher than any shotshell cartridge


I'll just stick to this little insert for now 




> For the love of god don't put a damn VFG on it


Whats a VFG?

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## veitnamcam

> 762mm is minimum. Make it 763mm with a full-length 9mm barrel pinned inside the shotgun tube. Probably best to do in a 20ga or similar as a 12ga with a 9mm tube filling it out might get Heavy. Also make sure the action can take the pressure.... pretty sure SAAMI max for 9mm is much higher than any shotshell cartridge


Maybe so but it is bearing on much less area.
IE 100psi on one square inch is 100 pounds and the base of both differ in large amounts.
A smart cookie like yourself would also know that half the bore size or case head dia doesn't mean half the thrust or pressure.

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## gimp

> Maybe so but it is bearing on much less area.
> IE 100psi on one square inch is 100 pounds and the base of both differ in large amounts.
> A smart cookie like yourself would also know that half the bore size or case head dia doesn't mean half the thrust or pressure.


yeah just be sure that's it's safe is all I'm saying


a VFG is a vertical foregrip.

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## Toby

righto I'll loose the grip

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## kimjon

I've seen it done before on a 12g with a 6" section of .38 special barrel inserted at the breach end, then the remainder of the 12g barrel was turned into an intergraded suppressor with baffles added. The rimmed .38 case is easier to extract, and all that was required was an extra bit braised onto the existing ejector/extractor.

Kj

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## Ryan

> righto I'll loose the grip


And then lose it?  :Psmiley:

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## Toby

> I've seen it done before on a 12g with a 6" section of .38 special barrel inserted at the breach end, then the remainder of the 12g barrel was turned into an intergraded suppressor with baffles added. The rimmed .38 case is easier to extract, and all that was required was an extra bit braised onto the existing ejector/extractor.
> 
> Kj


That sounds pretty decent. 

Should I lop the barrel off with a grinder or hacksaw?

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## Maca49

Laser the barrel off Toby, cleaner finish, Grinder should crown it just right, Hacksaw, then file? or turn in lathe :Wtfsmilie:

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## Toby

I went for the work out approach.

I sanded the burrs of the outside trying to keep it flat and used a small chainsaw file to take off the burr on inside of the barrel then a bit of sand paper

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## gimp

There's _probably_ a way to do it without taking all the bluing off

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## veitnamcam

Im impressed he got it pretty square!:thumbup:

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## Toby

> There's _probably_ a way to do it without taking all the bluing off


It's getting painted later so it doesn't really matter

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## Toby

> Im impressed he got it pretty square!:thumbup:


Hey hey, I didn't ace wood/metal at school sitting on my ass  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Toby

Gave the barrel a quick sand and de grease then measured up how the steel bar will be placed. Used whatever that thing is to get the contour of the barrel so I have an idea how much to grind off the bottom

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## Toby

Just got a cheap $25 rail off trademe. Will wait till it arrives and see how long the screws are on it so I know how thick the base needs to be.

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## Littledog

Good stuff Toby, you have restored my faith in the young again. That you are active and making your own 9mm and not stuck to your play station (the electronic one, not the one you were born with) shows great promise for the future. 

We need more young lads like you! :Thumbsup:

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## Toby

Guess what's been pulled apart and can't be put together again  :Sad:  

I'll keep at it should come together sooner or later stupid springs are bloody hard. At least I have a rough idea what goes where

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## ebf

Toby, I'm notorious for taking things apart and not getting them back together again  :Grin: 

Digital camera is your friend. Take pics of each sequence as you work, much easier to visualise how things go together.

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## Toby

I have most of it sussed now. One spring left no more pins left to put in place. Just have to compress the bugger somehow and slip it in its place and hope I set the trigger/hammer up properly or it'll have to come apart and try again

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## Toby

Here you can see the hammer comes back I can feel it locking then when I pull the trigger it releases so it must be done right just need to get the spring in, any ideas? I have tried ramming it in ended up with skinned knuckles  :Grin:

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## madjon_

Toby,there may be a hole in that shaft,compress the spring then slip a small Allen key or nail to hold it then slip into place and pull out nail

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## Toby

> Toby,there may be a hole in that shaft,compress the spring then slip a small Allen key or nail to hold it then slip into place and pull out nail


You legend!!!!

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## Toby

Worked thanks. A few failed attempts at using the vice to close it but ended up coming up with an idea that worked then had 3 attempts at putting it in. First one I found out I put it in upside down so took it out compressed the spring again put the nail in then went and put it back upside down again  :15 8 212:  #rd time the charm. Gun works again now though doesn't feel as nice as it used to might pull it up part one more time and move the spring around a bit see if that changes things.

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## Pointer

Ahhh, nothing like sawing a shotgun in half for the first time!

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## kimjon

Looking good, but I'd personally be looking at shortening and slimming down the forend as the proportions aren't quite right now with the short barrel.

Kj

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## Toby

> Looking good, but I'd personally be looking at shortening and slimming down the forend as the proportions aren't quite right now with the short barrel.
> 
> Kj


Sweet as, makes sense. I'll see what I can work up tomorrow

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## kimjon

Think English "rook rifle" and you'd know what I mean

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## longrange308

> Im impressed he got it pretty square!:thumbup:


i was too then i noticed he bloody cheated with the miter block :Psmiley:

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## Toby

Had to google those. Not sure if I will cut it back now that I think about it. I have stupid long arms and like being able to hold the gun out a bit further out

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## Toby

Well the rail was at the door when I got up so that was bloody fast. Now to find a way to mount it

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## mucko

Its coming along nicely Toby. how do you plan to fill the gap between the 12g barrel and the 9mm barrel.

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## Bill999

its just a chamber insert so not an issue,

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## Toby

Righto guys I'm quite proud of where I have got to today. Can say its shaping up. Went out to our scrap metal pile that I half ass made a year ago and grabbed a cut in half digger bucket and cut a bit for the rail then tapped it and well yeah pics tell the story.

Might also add I pulled the gun to bits again had a good look and put it back together a bit different and it works like it did before doesn't feel weird anymore. Quite happy I went with my gut instinct and rec checked it or could have been bad later down the track











Question now is do I wait for the weekend to go to the shop with dad and use the mig or have a jam now on the arc

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## Rushy

You have been a tinkering Toby.  What the hell are you doing that for?

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## 308

MIG it later - further down the track you'll look a the quality of weld and forget the few days difference

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## kimjon

How sbout silver soldering it? The join will be invisable using that method. Braising would be second choice. And say No to Arc!!!

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## Toby

I'm sure you lot will be glad I didn't have a go using the arc  :Have A Nice Day:  I wouldn't mind using a mig and making the cool spiral pattern.

I'll ask dad about the braising/soldering as I've never done though I've seen it done a few times so guess that makes me qualified enough to have a go

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## veitnamcam

Easy flow 20 percent silver,bugger all heat required will suck into joint,just make sure they are a nice fit it doesnt like filling gaps.

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## Toby

> Easy flow 20 percent silver,bugger all heat required will suck into joint,just make sure they are a nice fit it doesnt like filling gaps.


Ahh might have to use the mig then. The barrel isn't level and I never even thought/looked at it before I made the base for the rail and now sits about 5mm above the barrel when held on the chamber.

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## veitnamcam

Do little wee spots then not a full weld in one go or it will pull your pipe(barrel) so far out of round you wont get your insert in!

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## Toby

> Do little wee spots then not a full weld in one go or it will pull your pipe(barrel) so far out of round you wont get your insert in!


Yup, I had that in mind, Don't want to over heat anything. Since I have no idea how to get the fore end off without smashing the wood to get to the nut I have to be careful not to burn the wood as well. Was thinking a quick tac ad each end to hold it in postion and doing a few cm at a time letting it cool and so on

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## kimjon

The insert is now effectively the chamber, so heating the barrel won't be the end of the world. Just never use 12g in it ever again though.

Kj

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## Toby

I just looked and turns out I haven't seen silver soldering done before. I don't like the idea of naked flame around the gun mainly cause the fore ends still attached and I have no idea how to get it off.  I thought it was done with a soldering iron and spent about half a hour in the shed looking for the thing. I have the base all lined up and level if only I had a mig I could tack it on and take the tape and clamp off. Dad reckons I should make a whole new base and grind out the bottom to match the barrel which was my original idea but too much work for what it is imo

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## veitnamcam

You would have to have a nice fit to silver solder it anyway.
Make it a nice fit Toby, it will pull the barrel out of round less when you weld it.

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## Toby

I'd have to find thicker steel to make a new base that matched the profile of the barrel.

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## Toby

Little sneak peak



I hope it all works out

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## thejavelin

Amusing wee project - should be a fun shortrange gun.
Hey sorry to sidetrack - but where are you getting the 9mm insert from? I'd be keen to try one out in my cutdown.

cheers

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## Toby

> Amusing wee project - should be a fun shortrange gun.
> Hey sorry to sidetrack - but where are you getting the 9mm insert from? I'd be keen to try one out in my cutdown.
> 
> cheers



Yup that's the plan. Gotta say I'm happy with where it's at.

Got them from this guy on trademe

Trade Me - Sports from shumcr

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## Toby

> Looking good, but I'd personally be looking at shortening and slimming down the forend as the proportions aren't quite right now with the short barrel.
> 
> Kj



I ended up going with this idea

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## Toby

That silver stuff is flame proof paint not that it worrys me everything will be black at the end

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## thejavelin

> Got them from this guy on trademe


Thanks - ordered one!

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## thejavelin

BTW - not telling you how to suck eggs - but I noticed that you've painted the spring/action - when I got my single shot someone had done the same, and action was real stiff as a result.
Stripped the paint out of the action and its about 100x better!

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## Toby

> BTW - not telling you how to suck eggs - but I noticed that you've painted the spring/action - when I got my single shot someone had done the same, and action was real stiff as a result.
> Stripped the paint out of the action and its about 100x better!


Yeah that actually did cross my mind but I had that she'll be right attitude. If it gets stiff it wont be too hard to fix I spose

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## JoshC

> Yeah that actually did cross my mind but I had that she'll be right attitude. If it gets stiff it wont be too hard to fix I spose


That's something we all figured out in about October 2012. You're a crack up mate.

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## Toby

Need to buy black paint but here's where it's up to. Still need to get the base on though tomorrow I might make a decent base

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## Petros_mk

Toby, curious. What are you using it for?

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## Toby

Shooting cow shits? maybe a goat if I decide to take it bow hunting with my brother idk. Does it have to have a purpose?

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## Petros_mk

Personally I don't mind blowing random shit up... so I guess not...
Was just asking out of curiosity...

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## 308

I'm gonna try one of these things too - hell it's only forty bucks

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## gadgetman

Toby, with that green you have turned it into a zombie gun. Gimp will not be pleased.

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## Toby

Oh I got black spray paint this morning  :Grin:  

Gotta make a new base for the rail sometime today

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## gadgetman

Make sure you do a proper job aye! Make the rail a nice neat fit and not a bodge, then stick it on with the right stuff which wont include mig or arc.

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## Bill999

> Toby, with that green you have turned it into a zombie gun. Gimp will not be pleased.


as long as you draw a penis on the side he will let it slide

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## Toby

You guys are going to hate me but I used the arc, I just tacked on both ends was going to run along the side but I'd rather a mig so I can do it nicely. Looks pretty shit tbh I'm regretting it now. At least the rail fits and is still straight to my eye

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## Gibo

You better tidy that up young man!!

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## Toby

> You better tidy that up young man!!


Tidy? I'll get mum to

lucky she doesn't read these forums eh?

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## Rushy

> You guys are going to hate me but I used the arc, I just tacked on both ends was going to run along the side but I'd rather a mig so I can do it nicely. Looks pretty shit tbh I'm regretting it now. At least the rail fits and is still straight to my eye
> 
> Attachment 19410


Fuck Toby, a hunk of chewing gum would have looked better than that.

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## gadgetman

:3 8 14:  :36 7 5:  :15 8 212:

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## madjon_

> Looks pretty shit tbh I'm regretting it now. At least the rail fits and is still straight to my eye
> 
> Attachment 19410


You've got a grinder,French it,fill the gap with "no more gaps".9mm aint got that much recoil :Grin:

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## Toby

> 


Hahaha that sums my work up pretty well

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## gadgetman

Yup, after all the running around finding out what you should do you drop the ball.

That will take some fixing. Or do the thing an architect does when he messes up and it doesn't look as good as envisaged, ... suggest you plant a tree in front of it.

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## Toby

It'll live.

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## Toby

All done

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## Gibo

> All done
> 
> Attachment 19418


Looks hard case.
Righto go shoot something with it, show us your first group at 20m

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## Toby

> Looks hard case.
> Righto go shoot something with it, show us your first group at 20m


Not sure it will group at 20m  :Grin:  I'll have to wait till when ever dad goes trout fishing or luke goes hunting now since its meant to be loud

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## madjon_

> since its meant to be loud


Right stage 2,go to Repco and buy some Frostplugs to fit down the barrel,center dill them to 10mm,and drift them down to the 9mm insert.once you figure out what a frostplug is you'll work it out.

http://www.kerzan.co.nz/dbimages/sub...c35f8c1c9e.pdf

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## Toby

> Right stage 2,go to Repco and buy some Frostplugs to fit down the barrel,center dill them to 10mm,and drift them down to the 9mm insert.once you figure out what a frostplug is you'll work it out.


I was thinking about washers and springs though I'm not sure if its safe.

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## madjon_

> I was thinking about washers and springs though I'm not sure if its safe.


Now you worry about safe????????????????????

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## Rushy

Toby what do you call that colour?  And don't you be telling me Mauve.

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## madjon_

Link added

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## Toby

Haha! it's safer then if I go poking things in the barrel though I was thinking about putting the washers and springs into a ali tube then putting that whole thing in the barrel so its easy to remove. Once I know for sure the bullets are going to fly out properly then I'll have a think about though it sounds like a lot of work

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## Toby

> Toby what do you call that colour?  And don't you be telling me Mauve.


ebony, raven, dark, sable, inky, midnight, pitch, tar, jet

I prefer black though the pic makes the color a bit funny looking also I swear I can see a bit of green in the grips

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## Rushy

The picture makes it look an extremely dark iridescent green.

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## Gibo

Not enough coats of black ?

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## Toby

> Not enough coats of black ?


Had 3, I'll do more later.

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## Savage1

MOTHER OF GOD - YouTube

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## Spudattack

> MOTHER OF GOD - YouTube


Gotta love Supertroopers! Meeow!

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## Toby

> MOTHER OF GOD - YouTube


I'm not sure how mean that, but I'm taking it as a fuck yeah that's cool

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## gadgetman

Don't use springs to separate the washers use ali tube. But that frost plugs idea is even better.

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## Bill999

http://youtu.be/ytllVexL31E
mark 2

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## veitnamcam

MadJon bet me to it but yea just give the welds a grind then chain saw file then wet and dry around the file.
Bit of silicon in the sides let it fully cure and paint. It ain't coming off.

As for internal suppressor i would be goin for more than 10mm holes, you don't know how well it the insert will align.

Id go more like 12-13mm. To be on the safe side.

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## Toby

It's a bit rough around the edges but it'll do me for now. I think those frost plug ideas drilled to 12-13mm as VC says using ali tube like GM says would make a decent one. Can call it the mad gadgey cam suppressor  :Grin:

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## Vapour

good work Toby - a project is a project and you learn something everytime.  Looks ok to me if it's functional who cares, you even look to have a -20moa rail on it ;-)

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## Toby

Shot this thing today. It's the shit, so much fun. Hitting A4 at 20m but only just though I think the red dot isn't helping. Still awesome mate loves it though think he loved the wsm after he shot that

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## Rushy

Well it is a good thing you survived the exercise Toby.  A4 at 20 metres huh?

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## Toby

Mate shooting it. Looks pretty sweet if I do say so myself. I'd show the target but its just holes everywhere in the paper some hit side ways haha.

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## Ruger

I'd suggest you dont try suppressing the inside of the barrel based on the test fire results!. As the insert isn't rifled there is nothing to stabilize the 
projectiles hence the tumbling and hitting the target sideways?. If you're happy with the rest of the build, why not investigate getting a short piece of barrel 
blank made up to take the place of the existing insert?

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## Toby

Yeah the suppressor idea went out the window when I saw the target. I don't think I'll do much to this gun again but I want another one with a rifled barrel

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## gadgetman

So likely grouping just slightly worse than it would if left as a shottie?

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## Toby

Nah shotguns aren't this fun thought I should of brought some 7s and had a blast I bet that'd be fun

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## gadgetman

She'd be a real scatter gun now.

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## Toby

It served it's purpose.

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## Tarrbaby

was just trolling FB and saw your photos. How do you know Zane?
You mustve done something right cos he never wants to come shooting with us.

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## Toby

> was just trolling FB and saw your photos. How do you know Zane?
> You mustve done something right cos he never wants to come shooting with us.


Levis my nephew.

I'm good like that

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## kiwijames

> Mate shooting it. Looks pretty sweet if I do say so myself. I'd show the target but its just holes everywhere in the paper some hit side ways haha. 
> 
> Attachment 19476


Is your mate a giant or is that thing really small?

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## Toby

It's pretty small

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## martyk

New Member here - so G'Day All .  There's a guy in Wellington who advertises Chamber adapters for 12 gauge to .357 /38" etc. on TRADEME. - I bought one and no complaints as nicely made - something like a 'snapcap'.

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## Rushy

Welcome Martyk.

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## Toby

Brother put a #3 2/3" 36gram load through it today and didn't blow up. Can call it a success. Looked at some reloading data and saw it is very easy to make 9mm subsonic so at a later date I'll be reloading 9mm

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## 308

Is the sub idea to make it a quiet-ish up close pig/possum despatcher?

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## Toby

mainly just quiet. I can't run so pig hunting days are long gone but Im going to try get my brother to use it or a mate to try it out

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## 308

I got one of these inserts and tested it today through an old legal sawnoff breakopen 12G - it was probably fairly loud but wearing muffs I've no idea.
No aiming system just point it at things that I'd like to put a hole into and a 44 leaves a pretty big hole

As Toby says, it's good for shits and giggles, quieter than a shotgun shell out of the same gun and the only real surprise overall was that the recoil was guesstimated at about half that of a shotgun shell.
I expected much more of a kick

Range is pretty much point blank but a bit of fun for forty bucks so no complaints here

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## Toby

Righto guys, after shooting a few targets and then forgetting to bring the insert bit for the last look for a goat I remembered this time and have got 2 kills with her. Little one shot at 5m big one about 15m



This is the entry and exit of the little one



Little one was the photo of the wounds. It took about 2 steps and fall over the other one was shot under the jaw in the neck and dropped like a sack of shit

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## Rushy

That should feel rewarding Toby.

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## gadgetman

Seems to work right enough.

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## veitnamcam

Minimal meat damage. FMJ or expanding?

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## Toby

115gr JHP Which I think is jacketed hollow point? There's a lead tip flat with copper jacket. Must shred off the copper inside cause there were cuts through the lungs liver heart

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## veitnamcam

> _115gr JHP Which I think is jacketed hollow point?_ There's a lead tip flat with copper jacket. Must shred off the copper inside cause there were cuts through the lungs liver heart


Yep.

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## Toby

Not sure what to use next but they are bloody loud. Want to make subs for it now

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## veitnamcam

You could machine down the end of insert to thread and fit a small chamber on the end of the insert,with a fair bit of clearance on the projectile.

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## Toby

Thats not a bad idea cam. I was thinking a whole barrel in a new gun and making it so the extractor on the gun can pull the shell out as well

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## Toby

How much are pistol barrels? 

Thinking of making a sleeve to go over the pistol barrel like a bushing or even a thread so it screws into in the out side will be like the bit I have that fits the shotgun but it will be rifled. Surely that'd be better then no rifling?

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## Toby

Is it rifled? any pics please

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## veitnamcam

Garden gun?

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## Barefoot

> If you are really wanting  a 9mm shot gun as opposed to an interesting project , I have a 9mm bolt action  garden gun (and 200 rounds fiocchi ammo ) that I was planning on selling.


Is it a 9mm Flobert?

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## Dynastar27

dam thats pretty awesome  :Thumbsup:

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## Toby

@hamsav ?

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## Toby

That thing looks pretty neat but I'd rather a rifled 9mm luger

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## res

> That thing looks pretty neat but I'd rather a rifled 9mm luger


It looks like you have all the gear needed to make a semi auto sten style rifle,7round mag and it's a cat. 

Last one I know of cost the guy not much more than the barrel to make

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## Toby

That'd be cool to have

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## big_foot

> , Wow Toby ! I have just read your whole thread and I gotta say I admire your enthusiasm . Im real pleased I joined this website , they say every forum has "one" and Im sure it aint me this time  Dude , after seeing your work bench , the welding , the paint  job and the block ..........don't spose you'd post a pic of your girlfriend ( just joking  )


Haha we've definitely got our fair share of "one's" around here

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## Toby

Thanks hamsav

Whats the "one" you speak of?

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## Nibblet

> Thanks hamsav
> 
> Whats the "one" you speak of?


Keuano Reeves. He is the one.

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## Toby

Oh righto, nah no offence taken. I had no idea what you mean by "the one" still have no idea to be honest either

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## mikee

> Oh righto, nah no offence taken. I had no idea what you mean by "the one" still have no idea to be honest either

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## Towely

6 Inch bull barrel 9mm - For Sale - Auckland Pistol Club

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## Toby

that coat way too much. Hopefully a gunsmith will have a cut off or something laying around

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## res

What length do you want?

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## veitnamcam

Toby
I have a 6-8" sako barrel chambered in 308win you can have for this project if...

1 You do your research yourself and find the max pressures of the relevant chamerings(12g and 308 win)
2 Convert pressure over area to to thrust against the action comparatively.
3 Post it up here for everyone to pick holes in.

It would require some work to make it work but nothing a bright young mind with access to a lathe couldn't sort :Wink: 

Alternatively I have the other two bits of 30cal rifled barrel :Wtfsmilie:  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## Toby

Is 30cal the same as 9mm? I thought 9mm was bigger

I can't thread on a lathe I'd have to get someone else who can to do it. The teachers cant do it so I've never learnt which sucks

Unless you mean for a .308 insert which would be kick ass for subs aye. Will do the research and post it up here for everyone to pick holes in  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Rushy

PVC pipe any use to you Toby?  I have some that I could spare. Ha ha ha ha

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## veitnamcam

Yes a 308 insert,or perhaps a 30 pistol cal.
Do your lathes at work not have a lead screw?


Edit school

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## Toby

Whats a lead screw?

running for cover  :Have A Nice Day: 

No really the school has very basic equipment and the teacher is a wood work teacher. Kinda annoyes me but cant do shit about it

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## Maca49

If you have a half decent lathe you'll be able to cut a thread on it. Just get a good lathe book and nut it out, tooling is usually the expensive bit if you don't have any, if you need anything like that done I have a mate here who has a lathe and mill setup at home and could do it.

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## Toby

So the highest of the highest I have found in my data is 11,300PSI-12G and 61,500PSI-.308

I dont have sub sonic loads for .308 so will have to wait until I get on the computer to have a look for that. Also don't know the other bit so will also wait till I get on the pc and google it

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## Maca49

Well that will go well! :36 1 5:

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## Toby

I hope subs are better. I don't think a full load is bad either as its in its own barrel if thats right?

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## veitnamcam

Hint, work out the area of each case head.............................PSI stands for Pounds Per Square inch.

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## Rushy

> Hint, work out the area of each case head.............................PSI stands for Pounds Per Square inch.


And the calculation Toby should be simple for a fellah like you.  Just remember Big Ben Pies are Square.

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## Toby

Hopefully I've got this right

area for 12g - 0.6165"
"""""""".308-- 0.1750"

I can't do the litte 2 off my phone to show its sqaured

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## veitnamcam

So thrust or pressure applied to the action for each is?

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## Toby

I googled and can't find a formula for that. Do you know one I can work off?

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## Rushy

> So thrust or pressure applied to the action for each is?


VC you are subtly becoming quite the physics teacher. Keep it up and Toby will thank you for it one day.

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## Toby

Starting to think me ditching physics for computing was a silly move on my part

I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_thrust

Also got the formula 



6.96645 is a number I got for the 12g but have a feeling it's wrong and if it is right have no idea if it's N or lbs

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## veitnamcam

> I googled and can't find a formula for that. Do you know one I can work off?


Its pounds per square inch so

12g - 0.6165" x 11,300psi = 6966 pounds of force trying to break the action apart
.308-- 0.1750" x 61500psi = 10762 pounds of force trying (and possibly succeeding) to break the action apart.

So we can see its in the bad idea bucket to run max power 308 out of the shotty action.

If we take 6966 pounds of force as max and divide by 0.1750 case head diameter we end up with 39,805psi as max safe pressure.
This is right around starting loads for 150gr in 308win.
Data I have here for cast bullet loads(that you cant boot up the arse cos they are too soft) Is 170gr 2000 fps =37700psi, 1600fps= 21600psi.

So it should be safe as houses subsonic or at reduced loads, the issue is making sure it is(if it was made) never fired with a full power load.

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## Banana

12g case head roughly 1.9cm diameter.
1 inch = 2.54cm
1.9/2.54=0.748 inches 

Area of a circle
A=pi x r^2
pi x (0.748/2)^2 = 0.439 in^2

12g case head about 0.439 in^2

0.439 in x 11300 psi = 4966 pounds bolt thrust

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## Toby

It only be for subs. If I wanted a full .308 load I'd use the .308  :Have A Nice Day: 

So my calculation is right by vc and wrong by banana? I got the measurment off chuck hawkes which is different to bananas

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## veitnamcam

I dont have one to measure but a quick google suggests 6-7k pounds thrust for 12g

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## Banana

> So my calculation is right by vc and wrong by banana? I got the measurment off chuck hawkes which is different to bananas


No doubt that I'm off with the case head measurement.  I just roughly measured a 12g with crappy plastic ruler and rounded it to the nearest mm.  The working should be solid though.

If you're using 0.6165" as the case head area, seems like you're including the rim of the case in the external case head measurement. 
This would give you an optimistically large amount of force that the action could handle.  The pressure is only pushing on the internal case head area, which is much smaller than the exterior case head area if you're including the rim.

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## Maca49

Weld a bit of 6 mm steel to the face of the block and extend the firing pin! :Wink:

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## veitnamcam

Yes also using outside 308 case head measurment giving larger readings of force.

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## Toby

So I have tracked down a 9mm barrel off cut just under 4" long. So who here can thread it and drill out and thread the chamber insert for me?

 @veitnamcam @vietnamcam

Hope one of those is right  :Grin:

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## Nibblet

4"? Must be pretty cold steel?

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## Toby

Think its just stainless the chamber insert.

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## Nibblet

> Think its just stainless the chamber insert.


Haha whoooooosh!  :Wink:

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## Toby

I have no idea what you're talking about. But you would have guessed that from the first post

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## Toby

Hahaha I think I just got what you were talking about. Only took me a week

Anyway How much jump can you have between the chamber and rifling? I have the barrel its been thread before so Im thinking just threading the chamber insert and screwing it in like that. Would that work?
 @veitnamcam @tui_man2

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## veitnamcam

Send it down I will see what i can sort out.


Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Toby



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## Toby

Cheers VC, Hope this works well. Need that shell holder for a 9mm now some powder/ projectiles and primers. Gonna load up subs and test to see if it shoots straight out the barrel. if so then a suppressor of some sort is on the cards.



Note, it's not paint coming off it's just mud.

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## BRADS

That is a massive bolt on that bipod mate. Gun looks pretty sweet


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Toby

Yeah, I'm working on that. Just put it in for now cause the factory one is not long enough by about 1mm. If I used a proper stud it'll be fine but I only have one stud that was laying around not being used

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## thejavelin

You enthused me, and I built up one of these - will try and drop some goats with mine this weekend.
Also had a lot of fun with mine and making up wax slugs with cheapo skeet rounds !

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## Scouser

Hi Toby, just read this thread right through all 13 pages, well done mate, like your style!!!!!!

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## Toby

@mikee @veitnamcam

Barrel hasn't blown up so that's a good sign. Too dark to test for accuracy. What should be a subsonic load is bloody loud, I don't think the neighbors will be happy with that. Oddly enough .1gr less and it gets stuck in the barrel so I would have thought it would be sub sonic.

I'll need to play around with it more.

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## veitnamcam

Subsonic wont be quiet without a suppressor.

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## Toby

Yeah but I still thought it wouldnt sound like a shotgun....

I've shot .22 subs without a suppressor an its still quiet compared to a high velocity shell. I just want to get rid of the ear pirecing noise in the shot

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## veitnamcam

> Yeah but I still thought it wouldnt sound like a shotgun....
> 
> I've shot .22 subs without a suppressor an its still quiet compared to a high velocity shell. I just want to get rid of the ear pirecing noise in the shot



With the 12 bore extending well past the 9mm barrel you basicly have a loudener.

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## Toby

Righto, I'll somehow find a way to test that it comes out the barrel straight then make a suppressor somehow

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## mikee

> With the 12 bore extending well past the 9mm barrel you basicly have a loudener.


Just like boy racers have to have "big things" to make their cars louder  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Toby

Would putting a washer on the end somehow work? Would tape hold it? want it to hold but it if hits let go and fly off.

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## Spudattack

You could make the whole 12ga barrel into a suppressor, put a whole lot of washers wiith spacers down it, provided the bullet flies straight down it!

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## veitnamcam

> You could make the whole 12ga barrel into a suppressor, put a whole lot of washers wiith spacers down it,* provided the bullet flies straight down it!*


*

*

That is the issue

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## big_foot

Surely it should be straight for the first couple of yards at least?

Ive just been out making a new suppressor for the .22, center drilled the bases of some berocca tubes at 6.5mm the cut them off and slid them down a pipe. Should do the trick :Wink:

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## Spudattack

Good call, soft plastic baffles would not be a major even if the bullet touched one, you could then pull it apart and adjust to suit the bullet path.

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## Spudattack

You could cover the end with tape a fire it to see how true it flies.

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## Toby

Vc has come up with a good idea. Kinda thinking its more effort then its worth and might as well go full power house loads for hunting and just not shoot it around the house.

I'll still do the test though. And see its accuracy a well. Hopefully its an improvment

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## veitnamcam

The thing to remember here is that a standard suppressor is held true to the bore usually at the very least by a thread and shoulder or two point contact bush style and exit hole is no more than 6inches from the muzzle an requires at least 1mm clearance on projectile.

suppressor built into the shotgun barrel could be 16? inches from the muzzle of the insert whicvh is ratteling around in the shotgun chamber and will likely never be in the same place twice.

It would be like trying to shoot 243 ammo threw a 308 rifle with no sights and expecting all shots to go threw a 7mm hole 16 inches away without touching the sides of the hole.

Not saying it cant be done but would require lots and lots of clearance, a small suppressor on the insert itself would be the best option for getting everything aligned and you could possibly add a BIG clearance washer at the end of shotgun barrel could work okish, basically twin chambers.

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## Jimmynostars

Bang holes in 12g tube and find pipe to make overbarrel supressor out of it if too much clearance isnt a prob? / get a 45 insert to close the gap? 4jaw the silencer bits to make it hang under the barrel....

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## Toby

I've given up on the suppressor idea and will just stick to maxed out loads.

Shot it today and broke it. Hammer pulls back and pull trigger and it wont slam shut now. Hope the springs just come out and hasn't broken. If it has I'll be in need of a new spring.

On the plu side it's more accurate now so big thanks @veitnamcam top bloke. Nailed some shit floating down the river too so was a bit of fun before I broke it. If you're on fb you can watch the video when I finish uploading it and will chuck up a pic soon

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## Toby

Well I fixed it, was the bit that went to the thing slipped into a spot it shouldn't be but its good now

20m laying down then I moved in 15m and free stand shot 3

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## veitnamcam

If that's an A4 it is at least useable  :Thumbsup:

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## Toby

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...ideo_processed

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## Gibo

Looks lime an A1  :Psmiley:

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## Toby

A3 I think, idk but thats still a goats shoulder. I think I need to get rid of that red dot cause the dot wiggles everywhere when looking through it and I swear to god thats not helping.

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## veitnamcam

Cant view, which is normal but I am on lappy so it automatically opens the wife's dickbook account

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## Toby

I shoot at some sticks miss then fluke the last shot and hit this crap floating down the river

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## mikee

Toby, Red dot are made to be used with Both Eyes open. Concentrate more on the target then bring the rifle up till you see the dot over the target then follow the bouncing red ball on to the other targets.
Oh you're not shooting IPSC are you.  :Grin: 
Was that target shot with the proj's I sent ya??

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## Toby

Yup, sure are  @mikee . Thanks for them. I need to kill something with them now they look awesome.

Also here's a side by side of the old accuracy to what it is now. Just so you can see how much accuracy has improved 


Edit: Note they don't hit the paper side ways anymore either  :Grin:

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## mikee

> Yup, sure are  @mikee . Thanks for them. I need to kill something with them now they look awesome.
> 
> Also here's a side by side of the old accuracy to what it is now. Just so you can see how much accuracy has improved 
> 
> 
> Edit: Note they don't hit the paper side ways anymore either


No worries, If you need anymore I might have some somewhere which could beavailable at the same price as those ones  :Wink:  Just need to wade thru all the "stuff" I seem to have accumulated.

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## Toby

At that price I'd be stupid to pass them up  :Have A Nice Day: 

I was/am looking for them now but not at reloaders,gunworks, serious shooters(to be fair they have a shit website for finding projectiles and I gave up) and now checking gun city  :Zomg:

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## mikee

Oh Serious Shooters have em, If you are ready for a fright then click the linky

These are the nearest to the 125g JHPs I sent you 

Zero 9MM 147GR JHP 1000 - 9mm, 147gr, carbines, subsonic, loads, price, ... - Serious Shooters

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## Toby

I found some 125 jhp ones from gun city. they were seirras for $80 100pkt
and found the same projectiles at outdoors supplies for $44 a box

And that is why you should shop around. I have no idea what is cheap for pistol projectiles but reloaders supplies have 1000 for $130 but they look dumb. Just round nose though they probably do me for fucking around and can buy a box of good ones if I plan to shoot animals

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## mikee

most common would be solids (used for pistol shooting) most JHPs like Sierra or Hornady are designed for "Home Defense" 

If you want cheap and cheerful you can buy solid lead ones for less than a hundy to well over a hundy.

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## veitnamcam

> Oh Serious Shooters have em, If you are ready for a fright then click the linky
> 
> These are the nearest to the 125g JHPs I sent you 
> 
> Zero 9MM 147GR JHP 1000 - 9mm, 147gr, carbines, subsonic, loads, price, ... - Serious Shooters


That's frightening alight 3-6x the price for 30 cal rifle projectiles!

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## Toby

Berrys Bullets 9mm 124gr RN Box of 1000

This is more my pricing  :Grin: 

They'd do for shooting random objects I'd say. Then I can buy a box of the hornady ones for hunting.

Hornady 9mm .355 124 gr HP XTP® 35571 Box of 100

Probably need more brass as I only have 41 shells. All loaded atm just finished them a while ago  :Have A Nice Day:  brass seems cheap enough for once fired stuff. I don't need this stuff for a wee while yet though but good to know where to go when the time comes

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## Spanners

I've dug a heap of the frontier prog out of the sand bank that have come out if my CZ pistol. That have expanded REALLY well and are about 130/1000

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## Dublin

Great thread! Toby was the man! Sorry to see he passed.

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## Rushy

> Great thread! Toby was the man! Sorry to see he passed.


Toby was indeed a remarkable young man.  Thank you for your kind words.

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## canross

Have you proofed it with the 9mm yet? 12 gauges are sometimes proportionally weaker than smaller guns in 20 gauge etc and the breech face can sink/ collapse either suddenly with light actions or gradually with soft actions. 9mm should be ok in my mind, but I haven't crunched the numbers. Not trying to be a wet blanket, just figured I might save you some grief.

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## gimp

> Have you proofed it with the 9mm yet? 12 gauges are sometimes proportionally weaker than smaller guns in 20 gauge etc and the breech face can sink/ collapse either suddenly with light actions or gradually with soft actions. 9mm should be ok in my mind, but I haven't crunched the numbers. Not trying to be a wet blanket, just figured I might save you some grief.


Probably a bit past worrying about that sort of thing

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## canross

Edit - missed the last two posts - my condolences.




> Have you proofed it with the 9mm yet? 12 gauges are sometimes proportionally weaker than smaller guns in 20 gauge etc and the breech face can sink/ collapse either suddenly with light actions or gradually with soft actions. 9mm should be ok in my mind, but I haven't crunched the numbers. Not trying to be a wet blanket, just figured I might save you some grief.

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