# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  A few 375s

## Kiwi Greg

I have been "playing" with a few 375s over the last year or so, I grew out of the 338s   :Wink: 

Here they are with a 375 CE projectile & their water capacities, full to the top of the neck with filtered water.



375 RUM imp, 375 Terminator, 380 Terminator, 375 Lunatic, 375 DCM & 375 VM2 imp.

It has been interesting comparing performance   :Have A Nice Day:

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## 7mmsaum

Holy heck !

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## distant stalker

Nice. Be interested to see velocities and 1000 yard comparison of each

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## veitnamcam

He who dies with the most toys wins :thumbup:

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## Toby

Whats the speed of the vm2?

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## Kiwi Greg

> Whats the speed of the vm2?


"Disappointing" in the platform it is in.

It might go better in bigger action with longer barrel, ie a 20+ kg rifle....

The 375 DCM is the King of the 375s at this stage in a portable rifle  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Spanners

I thought the Lunatic was ~179gr ??

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## Kiwi Greg

> I thought the Lunatic was ~179gr ??


Yes that was what we were told....that is not the case, not even close.....maybe we have "special" water in Nelson...or a form of artistic licence was used when measuring it's capacity ???

In the same brass the 375 Lunatic & 375 DCM have basically the same capacity.......opps.... :Wtfsmilie:

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## Spanners

Maybe they used seawater?

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## bully

380 looks cool, does it have a parent case? what velocity on what grainprojectile does it do?

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## Kiwi Greg

> 380 looks cool, does it have a parent case? what velocity on what gram projectile does it do?


It has it's own proprietry case, which I'm still waiting for......might even cancel the order at this rate....

It gets along pretty well, I need to do more testing, but need cases to do it  :Oh Noes: 

Performance falls between the 375 Terminator & 375 DCM.

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## Callum

hows the 380 go? have you just used it in a rem 700 action?

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## Kiwi Greg

> hows the 380 go? have you just used it in a rem 700 action?


Yes I have got one on a 28" barrel in a 700 Action.

I don't have the data on me at the moment, sorry.

I only had limited testing with it, I only have 5 bits of brass to test the 300, 340 & 380 Terminator with.

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## Callum

no worrys mate, any word on my edge?

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## Kiwi Greg

> no worrys mate, any word on my edge?


I'm still waiting on the barrel, it can't be far away  :Have A Nice Day:

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## mikee

> He who dies with the most toys wins :thumbup:
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


When it comes to KG and his toys we are all screwed, impossible to keep up with that man. Mike Dillon might just about be there though



Skip to 1:03. They are shooting at remote control model aircraft, why because they can and its fun

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## 7mmsaum

I would hate to do his reloading  :Have A Nice Day:

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## BRADS

And the biggest one goes ka flaming boom :Have A Nice Day:

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## Kiwi Greg

> When it comes to KG and his toys we are all screwed, impossible to keep up with that man. Mike Dillon might just about be there though
> 
> 
> 
> Skip to 1:03. They are shooting at remote control model aircraft, why because they can and its fun


I've gotta have a go with a Dillon one day  :Thumbsup:

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## mikee

> I've gotta have a go with a Dillon one day


You'd be standing behind me. 

I guess you can afford to play with one when you own the business which makes em tho. I just love the sound thry make in action, not a gun  shot more of a ripping noise


Oh apologies for the thread drift too

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## Kiwi Greg

> You'd be standing behind me. 
> 
> I guess you can afford to play with one when you own the business which makes em tho. I just love the sound thry make in action, not a gun  shot more of a ripping noise
> 
> 
> Oh apologies for the thread drift too


No drama  :Have A Nice Day: 

I have a new toy on the way  :Thumbsup:

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## Kiwi Greg

I made this video this arvo because I was bored & wanted to try to clear a few things up.

It is pretty clear, simple & straight forward.

So you can see how easy it is to measure case capacity.

375 Lunatic & 375 DCM case capacity. - YouTube

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## Spanners

> I made this video this arvo because I was bored & wanted to try to clear a few things up.
> 
> It is pretty clear, simple & straight forward.
> 
> So you can see how easy it is to measure case capacity.
> 
> 375 Lunatic & 375 DCM case capacity. - YouTube


Nice vid. I would have to cut about 4 hrs and give it an R rating if it was me trying to do it. 

Can you tell me the speights capacity of the DCM??  :Grin:

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## Kiwi Greg

> Nice vid. I would have to cut about 4 hrs and give it an R rating if it was me trying to do it. 
> 
> Can you tell me the speights capacity of the DCM??


If you bring the Speights & I will tell you the capacity  :Have A Nice Day:

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## veitnamcam

The difficulty with speights measurements is that the specific gravity changes quite rapidly over time with dissolved gas escaping to atmosphere once the top is cracked .
You could need a large number of bottles to be accurate.
What was the problem again?

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## Toby

> What was the problem again?


Its speights for a start

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## BRADS

> Its speights for a start


Yep that's the first major flaw :Have A Nice Day:

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## mikee

> Its speights for a start


Good on ya maaaaaate!!!!!!

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## veitnamcam

Novices :p :Beer:  :Beer:  :Beer: 

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## Toby

> Novices :p
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## veitnamcam

> Attachment 13174


Two young lesbians hating on the girl that has all the guys after her?

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## Kiwi Greg

Well I've had a break through & finally found the missing 6 grains of water   :Have A Nice Day: 

Here it is.



Here it is pictured next to a 375 Lunatic & 338 DCM



It is a 50 cal Lunatic not a 375....  :Wink:

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## Toby

That .50's pretty ugly.

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## The Claw

I must be missing something here... Who cares?  :Wtfsmilie: 




> Well I've had a break through & finally found the missing 6 grains of water  
> 
> Here it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is pictured next to a 375 Lunatic & 338 DCM
> 
> 
> ...

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## R93

I don't get it? But glad, you found all 6 of them. :Have A Nice Day:

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## sneeze



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## Bavarian_Hunter

> I have been "playing" with a few 375s over the last year or so, I grew out of the 338s  
> 
> Here they are with a 375 CE projectile & their water capacities, full to the top of the neck with filtered water.
> 
> 
> 
> 375 RUM imp, 375 Terminator, 380 Terminator, 375 Lunatic, 375 DCM & 375 VM2 imp.
> 
> It has been interesting comparing performance


what came out on top in performance?

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## Kiwi Greg

> what came out on top in performance?


With the rig I used, Barnard P-Chey, 1.35", 32" barrel, the 375 DCM was the best.

I believe the 375 VM2 & a similar one not pictured will be faster than the DCM, but the rigs weigh considerably more useing a 50 BMG style action & 1.75" 36"+ barrel. 

There maybe only 50-150 FPS in it hard to say at present as there is so little data available for them.

They will also cost a fair bit more to build, so it is hard to say whether or not they will be worth it. 

Any increase in performance is helpful once you start getting out past 2000 yards  :Have A Nice Day: 

Depending on the outcome I may build one on my 416 Barrett, if it doesn't sell.....

I would like to put the brass & dies I have to good use..... :Oh Noes:

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## Tui4Me

Looking at those cases actual powder capacity (base to shoulder neck junction) would have to go to the lunatic?

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## Kiwi Greg

> Looking at those cases actual powder capacity (base to shoulder neck junction) would have to go to the lunatic?


The necks are the same length give or take a thou, in the same brass they have the same internal capacity.

The DCM diameter is smaller at the base & bigger at the shoulder than the Lunatic by a small amount each way.

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## L.R

> The necks are the same length give or take a thou, in the same brass they have the same internal capacity.
> 
> The DCM diameter is smaller at the base & bigger at the shoulder than the Lunatic by a small amount each way.


Actually that is not true Greg.  The Lunatic has more total capacity than the DCM in the same brass and even more so when measured to the neck shoulder junction.

If you are going to call others about misleading capacities don't start doing it yourself.

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## Kiwi Greg

> Actually that is not true Greg.  The Lunatic has more total capacity than the DCM in the same brass and even more so when measured to the neck shoulder junction.
> 
> If you are going to call others about misleading capacities don't start doing it yourself.


Thanks for your input Luke  :Have A Nice Day: 

Do you have a bit of 375 DCM & 375 Lunatic brass in front of you ?

Did you watch the video I put in this post ?




> I made this video this arvo because I was bored & wanted to try to clear a few things up.
> 
> It is pretty clear, simple & straight forward.
> 
> So you can see how easy it is to measure case capacity.
> 
> 375 Lunatic & 375 DCM case capacity. - YouTube


Yes the DCM had .5 grain less water in that video, .5 of a grain is very little water, I can weigh it again & get it .5 grain over no problem.

That video was made in one take no editing.....

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## L.R

That's correct Greg. Based on the early discussions I had with you the difference was about 1 grain of water in favour of the lunatic. 

It's ok to say the Lunatic had more capacity Greg, it also has a longer neck.  Both those points make it a slightly better designed wildcat of the cheytac case in my opinion. 

I don't care if its only 1gr or half a grain, the truth is the lunatic is bigger, and when you are calling others liars you better not be lying yourself.

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## L.R

This is a copy paste of the text you sent me. 

Just formed a piece of jamerson lunatic into DCM brass what an arse to do ... It holds 172.9grains of water so there is about 1 grain difference not 6 .... All BS ....

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## veitnamcam

So its not 6 then and its all bs?
Last time a checked the bullet goes in the neck so any extra capacity from a longer neck is null and void yea?

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## L.R

Exactly VC. That's why the Lunatic has a 50 degree shoulder not 40 degree. That gives the Lunatic the ability to have a longer body and slightly longer neck than the DCM. So if Greg measures just to the neck shoulder junction the lunatic will hold more water again than the DCM. 

The performance advantage of 1gr of water capacity difference would be next to nothing, however they are not the same.

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## Kiwi Greg

> This is a copy paste of the text you sent me. 
> 
> Just formed a piece of jamerson lunatic into DCM brass what an arse to do ... It holds 172.9grains of water so there is about 1 grain difference not 6 .... All BS ....


Since then it has been fired with a projectile in it & not just fireformed it has grown a little as you would expect from a case that went through what this one did to be formed... 

Like for like in the same brass they hold about the same amount of water.....half a grain either way is very easy to do, so measuring down the case would be even more inaccurate.

Do you have a piece of 375 DCM & Lunatic brass so you can see for yourself ?

This all started because GD said his 375 Lunatic was the biggest 375/408 Cheytac imp around & said it was 179 grains of water to prove it was the biggest.

We knew the 375 Cheytac imp I had held about 173 grains of water & a standard 375 Cheytac held about 167, we realised it was extremely unlikely for the 375 Lunatic to be 12 grains bigger in water capacity than the standard 375 Cheytac, but without brass we couldn't say for sure, with brass we can say for sure than the 375 Lunatics water capacity is not 179 grains of water as GD said, it is not even close.

Like Chris pointed out we are flogging a dead horse.....time to move on & shoot these big rifles at distances they were meant to be shot, beyond 2000  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Kiwi Greg

> Exactly VC. That's why the Lunatic has a 50 degree shoulder not 40 degree. That gives the Lunatic the ability to have a longer body and slightly longer neck than the DCM. So if Greg measures just to the neck shoulder junction the lunatic will hold more water again than the DCM. 
> 
> The performance advantage of 1gr of water capacity difference would be next to nothing, however they are not the same.


*VC* pop around & measure these cases some time please

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## L.R

> Since then it has been fired with a projectile in it & not just fireformed it has grown a little as you would expect from a case that went through what this one did to be formed... 
> 
> Like for like in the same brass they hold about the same amount of water.....half a grain either way is very easy to do, so measuring down the case would be even more inaccurate.
> 
> Do you have a piece of 375 DCM & Lunatic brass so you can see for yourself ?
> 
> This all started because GD said his 375 Lunatic was the biggest 375/408 Cheytac imp around & said it was 179 grains of water to prove it was the biggest.
> 
> We knew the 375 Cheytac imp I had held about 173 grains of water & a standard 375 Cheytac held about 167, we realised it was extremely unlikely for the 375 Lunatic to be 12 grains bigger in water capacity than the standard 375 Cheytac, but without brass we couldn't say for sure, with brass we can say for sure than the 375 Lunatics water capacity is not 179 grains of water as GD said, it is not even close.
> ...


We are not flogging a dead horse Greg you are. 

GD said correctly that his 375 improved is the biggest in NZ. It is bigger than the DCM even if only be one grain.

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## BRADS

I really wanted to stay out of this.......
The fact is Mr Duley came on this forum and told us all his case holds 180grns of water. It don't, he's full of shit.
The dcm and lunatic cases are almost identical :Have A Nice Day:

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## L.R

Mr Duley knew not to turn that P Chey action into a versico tho... He's pretty clever if you ask me.

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## veitnamcam

> *VC* pop around & measure these cases some time please


My point was missed, by however many moa the three oh eight would need at 2000.:rolleyes:

If the neck is longer on the lunatic and both the DCM and Lunatic are full to the top of the neck with near as dammit the same weight of water then the lunatic with the longer neck must have less effective case volume.
(because the bullet goes in the neck right? :Grin: )

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## L.R

No VC your wrong. The shoulder is steeper. This gives the ability to have either a longer neck a longer body or a bit of both as the lunatic has.

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## Kiwi Greg

> Mr Duley knew not to turn that P Chey action into a versico tho... He's pretty clever if you ask me.


I never said he wasn't clever, he is very clever & has a lot to offer the shooting faturnity, but......

If he knew not to put a VM into the P-Chey it was because of his dramas putting the Lunatic into a PL.....

There was little to lose by re chambering that Lunatic.

It will be reborn again soon  :Cool: 

Luke do you have a 375 DCM case to compare with the 375 Lunatic ???

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## L.R

Greg. You know I don't have a DCM case. However I have in my phone all the volumes ect that you measured yourself.  I can post up more of your texts if you want. Screen shot them even. 

If Duncan was one of GD's customers he would have been saved the expense of re chambering that barrel to something that went backwards velocity wise.

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## Kiwi Greg

> No VC your wrong. The shoulder is steeper. This gives the ability to have either a longer neck a longer body or a bit of both as the lunatic has.


The necks are basically the same length, the DCM is bigger in diameter at the shoulder than the Lunatic, which removes some of the 50 VS 40 degree shoulder advantage, the Lunatic is bigger in diameter at the base than the DCM where it makes the least diffrence to capacity because of all the brass in the head.

Luke quite obviously you don't have a 375 DCM case to compare to a 375 Lunatic so you are probably relying on something that someone else has told you that doesn't have a 375 DCM case to compare anyway..... :36 1 5:

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## Kiwi Greg

> Greg. You know I don't have a DCM case. However I have in my phone all the volumes ect that you measured yourself.  I can post up more of your texts if you want. Screen shot them even.


If you do Luke please make sure you put all of them up including the chamber ones

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## L.R

Greg stop trying to make it look like they are the same volume, they are not, you admitted it to me via text. The Lunatic is about 1gr bigger. 

How about you send me a DCM case and ill measure both to the neck shoulder junction since you don't seem to want to do that yourself. Wonder why......?

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## veitnamcam

Sit in on a third form physics class or primmer 4 maths class.

If they both have the same water capacity FULL TO THE TOP THEN EFFECTIVE CAPACITY MUST BE MINUS AREA DISPLACED BY BULLET! IE THE NECK!
if they are the same and you subtract more from one (because the neck is longer) it will be smaller regardless of shape body taper shoulder angle or hight.

Its splitting hairs but when water capacity is the same to the top of the case longer neck equals less effective capacity.
The only possible variance in this instance to effective capacity is seating depth.
Why would you design a cartridge with a nice long neck and then throat the rifle out so the bullet was barely seated to get more capacity? You wouldn't you would push the shoulder neck junction forward.

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## L.R

VC the neck is made longer to hold the Bullet straighter and more concentric.  The neck length is only a tiny bit longer on the lunatic as KG says. The rest of the extra volume is in the case. 

Go round to KG's and measure it.  Or better yet stick to reloading for ya 308.

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## veitnamcam

> Exactly VC. That's why the Lunatic has a 50 degree shoulder not 40 degree. That gives the Lunatic the ability to have a longer body and slightly longer neck than the DCM. So if Greg measures just to the neck shoulder junction the lunatic will hold more water again than the DCM. 
> 
> The performance advantage of 1gr of water capacity difference would be next to nothing, however they are not the same.


Read your post above again.

It was said they are within half a grain of water to THE TOP.
You said the lunatic had a longer neck.
Same volume at the top minus a longer neck equalls less volume. 
And it wouldn't matter if i had never reloaded anything or even knew what a rifle was.
On your information i am correct.
Simple maths mate

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## Spanners

Point of the whole thing is; Duley lied about 179gr capacity - yes/no??

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## gimp

Who gives a tenth of a fuck? They're all huge.

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## The Claw

> Who gives a tenth of a fuck? They're all huge.


Oh, come on! This is seriously important, credibility defining stuff (well apparently it is?) :rolleyes: 

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## tui_man2

Think you should go around and see Greg cam, not to measure but to give him a man hug. . . .

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## veitnamcam

I think its LR that needs a man hug  lol.
I couldnt give a rats Arse which one is bigger. Just pointing out the obvious :rolleyes:

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## sneeze

I think we should change Kiwi Gregs name to    "the water boy"

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## The Claw

> I think its LR that needs a man hug  lol.
> I couldnt give a rats Arse which one is bigger. Just pointing out the obvious :rolleyes:
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Define obvious?... It's obviously obvious that there is obviously some point to this thread... Obviously...

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## Tahr

> Define obvious?... It's obviously obvious that there is obviously some point to this thread... Obviously...
> 
> Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


Well, I've just read it through, and nothing is obvious to me.

But I've just gotta say guys, that your prick always looks smaller when you are looking down on it. So stop worrying about size.

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## The Claw

> Well, I've just read it through, and nothing is obvious to me.
> 
> But I've just gotta say guys, that your prick always looks smaller when you are looking down on it. So stop worrying about size.


That makes me feel better (the 1st statement that is!), I thought I had missed something important here...

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## Spanners

You guys pick up on every minor detail KG comes with but none of you groupies have acknowledged the fact that your 'idol' has been talking shit for years all over the world about the capacity, which is exactly what the thread is about. 
It's fact is that Duley has constantly lied about it from day one and now the attention is trying to diverted with the bollox of measuring to the base of the neck etc. 

regardless of how things are getting twisted, do you accept that capacity quoted is false and never existed nor could, or just want to the match the other lies and deceit that are far too often smeared around this forum to boost ones image?

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## sneeze

:Grin:  I'm on the wrong side of 50 and all my idols are dead. So from a neutral stand point this grains of water thing has gone on so long that any point is long lost and continuing with it just comes across as petty. You can poke it with a stick as often as you like but the horse is well and truly dead. 
Has been a good thread from a piss taking point of view though :Thumbsup:

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## Steve338

Farking funny this thread, some people take themselves wayyyyyyy too seriously

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