# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  accurate rifles

## northdude

so im off work sick and decide to watch some you tube clips on gun stuff because ive never done it before. im amazed at what the guys in the us think an accurate rifle is they stand about 10 paces away from some cans and shoot at them with a high powered rifle and manage to hit them and think its got good accuracy the funniest one was a guy with a 1022 that shot a 2 inch group at 40 yards and thought it was really good  :Wtfsmilie:

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## oneshot

Americans are a different breed from us

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## Kscott

True. Mind you I've seen some _hunters_ who could barely hit the ground in front of them  :Grin:

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## 7mmsaum

I have seen hunters hit the ground in front of them  :Have A Nice Day:

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## 300CALMAN

Better not throw stones remember we have some youtube idiots as well, just there are not many of us in general. In my experience Americans come in all types, many are more like us (Kiwis) than most other cultures.

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## Tahr

I would put money on the average american hunter being a better shot than the average NZ hunter.
The american practices all year, and hunts once.
The NZer hunts all year, and practices once.

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## Dino

Spend a bit of time at any range in NZ and I think you will have a new appreciation of rifle accuracy, more to the point joe hunters ability.

Most guys spend their time shooting off benches at the range I go to, almost all the others are shooting off a bi pod

I get a few strange looks when shooting clays at 50M, be surprising how many wouldn't be able to hit a clay at 50m off hand.

Anyway my 2cents, I think I am with Thar on this one

Cheers

dino

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## jim160

> Americans are a different breed from us


Yep.  Especially this idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgmx_KgQZvI

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## Tahr

> Yep.  Especially this idiot.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgmx_KgQZvI


I dunno. He’s done it 6,925 times according to youtube, and he’s still alive.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## oneshot

do not try this at home, especially with a .45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paxk_LPmdMI

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## Ryan

A classic.

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## mudgripz

"accuracy - the funniest one was a guy with a 1022 that shot a 2 inch group at 40 yards and thought it was really good"

That's pretty normal for a ruger ......

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## steven

> I would put money on the average american hunter being a better shot than the average NZ hunter.
> The american practices all year, and hunts once.
> The NZer hunts all year, and practices once.


So many sit on a concrete bench and fire while sitting with bipods etc, I wonder I dont call that practice. Out in the real wild far more so, I'd take the opposite view myself.

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## Gibo

I was refreshed when shooting beside Jas in Dannevirke. Pulls out the pack at 300 and nails the gong each shot.  Nothing wrong with a bi pod but real hunting situations where they are usefull are few.

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## northdude

hey im not throwing stones im just stating an observation that ive made and put it in a thread and that's how I take the replys they are that persons observation  if anyone gets a bit funny on the subject best move on to the next thread

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## 10-Ring

The average American is pretty much like the average Kiwi.

Anyway, I've seen some pretty poor shooting lately and some of it has been mine.

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## BRADS

> I was refreshed when shooting beside Jas in Dannevirke. Pulls out the pack at 300 and nails the gong each shot.  Nothing wrong with a bi pod but real hunting situations where they are usefull are few.


Yes it was good shooting, it's always easy on your own gongs........you no the winds, range, where to aim in what conditions it gets to easy.....
Different gongs on a different range and you realise how average you are :Have A Nice Day:  


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## Toby

> Yes it was good shooting, it's always easy on your own gongs........you no the winds, range, where to aim in what conditions it gets to easy.....
> Different gongs on a different range and you realise how average you are 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Excuses!

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## BRADS

> Excuses!


Your just pissy cause first shot with your rocket launcher I smashed the gong you kept missing :Have A Nice Day:  


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## timattalon

> "accuracy - the funniest one was a guy with a 1022 that shot a 2 inch group at 40 yards and thought it was really good"
> 
> That's pretty normal for a ruger ......


I used to have a Ruger 10/22 that would struggle to hit a 3 foot square from 50 yards, but my cheap norinco would hit a 1/2 inch circle on the same day. Still have the norinco / scrapped the Ruger.

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## Happy

> I used to have a Ruger 10/22 that would struggle to hit a 3 foot square from 50 yards, but my cheap norinco would hit a 1/2 inch circle on the same day. Still have the norinco / scrapped the Ruger.


That's weird. I watched my missus shoot a myna bird at 30 mtrs in the head 2 mornings ago.. With sub sonic of course... 10/22 Ruger that's not been sighted in or cleaned for yonks ..
Must have got a good one ??

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## steven

> The average American is pretty much like the average Kiwi.
> 
> Anyway, I've seen some pretty poor shooting lately and some of it has been mine.


I started shooting small bore prone at 18, this year I started shooting non-prone in service rifle,  Im ***** awful with a capital F and A, LOL.

The only way I'd kill a deer at more than 50m is if it laughed itself to death....

 :Thumbsup:

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## Toby

> That's weird. I watched my missus shoot a myna bird at 30 mtrs in the head 2 mornings ago.. With sub sonic of course... 10/22 Ruger that's not been sighted in or cleaned for yonks ..
> Must have got a good one ??


My mate must have a good one too, I got a tidy 2 inch group at 100m. I thought that was ok considering it was a ruger

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## Yukon

I've got a pretty accurate 1022, though mine cost me $700 used. Target barrel, target trigger, laminated stock etc. It was shocking at ejecting spent cases, so I fitted a hardened ejector claw that I got from Brownells. It is an absolute shitter with most ammo, and a darling with the right ammo. For instance it hates Winchester ammo (stove pipes, misfires every second round, spill shells everywhere when trying to clear misfired rounds, etc), but loves Winchester lasers. It works a treat with Remington Subs.

I use it with a night scope for rabbit killin', though I still have to dry fire it into the ground when I've finished shooting, (removed mag etc), and occasionally it goes-off, which really gets my goat. Probably need to clean the chamber more often for try different ammo.

I have never properly tested it's accuracy, but I've been folding rabbits at 80m in the dark, so it can't be that bad.  :Thumbsup:

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## Beaker

I hear that!
I used to shoot .22 prone indoor, from 12, and was ok. Fast forward a few years of not shooting ( including a bit of not so good for body or mind persuites) then back into shooting, and i couldn't hit a barn door at 19m... Getting better, but getting older certainly slows the learning rate  :Have A Nice Day: 
Or maybe i just over think things these days.....


Oh and i think i got got a good one, my 10/22, all standard apart from buffer by me (got some nylon rod that fitted), polishing most things roughly by me and a dremal, seems to shoot under a inch at 98m with cci subs and win power point. About 4 in with win subs and cci stingers - go figure, role reversal.

 Now just need to find more cci subs........ ( and time to shoot  :Have A Nice Day:  ) 





> I started shooting small bore prone at 18, this year I started shooting non-prone in service rifle,  Im ***** awful with a capital F and A, LOL.
> 
> The only way I'd kill a deer at more than 50m is if it laughed itself to death....

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## northdude

i got a shit one cant even bring myself to sell it to some poor bastard my conscience would bug me

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## steven

"About 4 in with win subs and cci stingers"

Ive not seen a thing that says these shoot well, in fact about the worst, sure they are knock out rounds, shooting barn doors maybe.  Funnily enough as I went around the gunshops in Wellington looking for 22 first thing everyone tried to sell me were stingers, I dont think anyone wants them.  I have 5 x 22LR rounds to try in the cmmg conversion kit in my AR15, I didnt get stingers...CCI seem pretty good ammo, I have 50 "std" to see how they do.  Couldnt get velocitors however.

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## jakewire

> i got a shit one cant even bring myself to sell it to some poor bastard my conscience would bug me


Yeah, don't you just hate that.
You can't even bring yourself to trade it with a decent gunshop owner.
I got a Marlin .22 magnum like that at the moment, not that it's not accurate, it is , when it fires, which is most of the time, then occasionally it has extraction problems as well .
Dammed if I know what to do with it.

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## Tahr

> Yeah, don't you just hate that.
> You can't even bring yourself to trade it with a decent gunshop owner.
> I got a Marlin .22 magnum like that at the moment, not that it's not accurate, it is , when it fires, which is most of the time, then occasionally it has extraction problems as well .
> Dammed if I know what to do with it.


Biff it in a dam and forget you ever owned it.

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## sakokid

That's strange my 22 marlin mag it the most accurate shooter I own.

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## northdude

unusual for a marlin if its accurate it might be worth fixing

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## jakewire

Yes, thats why I've hung on to it, well actually it's because I don't know what to do with it and I suppose I'm hoping some sort of magical solution will present itself.
Its a 925m. I've hunted about for a fix and it appears my problems are not unique to my rifle
Extraction possibly can be fixed by carefully polishing the chamber and the occasional non firing could be an ammo or firing pin/ striker spring problem.

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## Tuidog

> Yes, thats why I've hung on to it, well actually it's because I don't know what to do with it and I suppose I'm hoping some sort of magical solution will present itself.
> Its a 925m. I've hunted about for a fix and it appears my problems are not unique to my rifle
> Extraction possibly can be fixed by carefully polishing the chamber and the occasional non firing could be an ammo or firing pin/ striker spring problem.


Probably an ammunition problem. My Dad had an anshutz 22mag that occasionally wouldn't fire Winchester ammo. Extracting the round give a turn when putting it back in the magazine it would fire next time around.

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## steven

> Biff it in a dam and forget you ever owned it.


uh no. hand it into your AO for destruction.

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## gadgetman

> Yes, thats why I've hung on to it, well actually it's because I don't know what to do with it and I suppose I'm hoping some sort of magical solution will present itself.
> Its a 925m. I've hunted about for a fix and it appears my problems are not unique to my rifle
> Extraction possibly can be fixed by carefully polishing the chamber and the occasional non firing could be an ammo or firing pin/ striker spring problem.


 @mudgripz

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## Dead is better

[QUOTE=mudgripz;321236]"accuracy - the funniest one was a guy with a 1022 that shot a 2 inch group at 40 yards and thought it was really good"

That's pretty normal for a ruger ......[/QUOTE

My ruger when standard did 1" at 50m. I bought a 16" kidd barrel for it and it now does 1/2" at 50m all day long using cci. Fancy bolts, springs, firing pins, general wankery dont really add much value to a ruger. Rip off that shitty barrel and you're good

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## smidey

Both my 10/22 and my Norinco Jw15a bulge eyes out if possums heads no problem so I like them both. I do use the jw more often though as it's much quieter as it has the over barrel suppressor. 
I'm a ruger fan, love my ruger hmr so much I just bought it's big brother in 223 all weather. I've never had or used an inaccurate ruger so can't complain about them.

Sent from my workbench

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## mudgripz

Got to bench test alot of 22 makes/models in recent years and some are consistently accurate and some quite poor. What I've often found is that often people call a rifle accurate when it made maybe one particular shot at distance, or fired a tight group once last April. But the ocasional group or shot never tells the rifle story. It is* group averages* that give an accurate picture. So rifles get found out off the bench at 50 and 100m. I don't take much notice of the occasional good group if I can't consistently repeat it - unless ammo testing.

Some basic sporter 22s can be extremely accurate e.g. a Norinco EM332 that averaged 0.6" over four consecutive groups at 100m. Others like the CZ, Brno, JW15, Marlin 795/925/980/60 have no trouble dropping under 0.5" at 50m - *and importantly - averaging close to that*. Always the averages that tell a rifle's real story. 

It is in this regard that 10/22s fail. They might nail the occasional good group but cannot hold consistency. We've owned 6-7 and tested more and none were good shooters - very poor. Group averages from 1-2" at 50m. Best of them averaged 1.04" at 50m for set of 5 shot groups. By comparison two marlin 60 semiautos surprised the hell out of me - both touching the magic 1/4" for 5 shots at 50m, one rifle averaging 0.295" for 4 groups, and the other 0.39". That's serious accuracy. For a cheaper rifle marlin makes dam good rimfire barrels.  Some ruger 10/22s do shoot well but they are rare - depends where they were sourcing barrels at the time. Odd Shillen barrels around. Have found older rugers tended to be better made, slightly better shooters.

After testing dozens of makes of 22 however the 10/22 rates bottom for accuracy. And when we pulled them down three reasons showed up:  loose chambers on some, loose barrel pinning on many, and poor rifling issues on others. For example - when barrels were removed and a 22 slug pushed down barrel it might start tight then almost fall down barrel before finding tight section of rifling again near end of tube. Impossible to get accuracy out of that poor rifling situation. The usual solution is rebarrelling, or if slug test shows barrel ok you can get gunsmith to chop off chamber end, mill new chamber and thread it into receiver rather than continue pin set up. Costs a bit but can solve problems. You can also thread barrel and chamber and fit a marlin microgroove barrel to it. We had only one 10/22 that shot well - and it was no longer a ruger. Had mostly VQ parts, green mountain heavy barrel etc and the only ruger bit left was the trigger blade - $1100 spent on it by someone. The Marlin 60DL would match it on the range and was untouched, straight out of the box.

Hard to know why your 925M is shooting/cycling poorly Jake - I'd also suspect ammo type, but would be worth getting a gunsmith to cast an eye over it. They are usually v good shooters. Could be an extractor or spring or two could solve problem - shouldn't be a hard fix as they're fairly simple rifles.

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## smidey

Thanks for the write up, very interesting

Sent from my workbench

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## andyanimal31

> Got to bench test alot of 22 makes/models in recent years and some are consistently accurate and some quite poor. What I've often found is that often people call a rifle accurate when it made maybe one particular shot at distance, or fired a tight group once last April. But the ocasional group or shot never tells the rifle story. It is* group averages* that give an accurate picture. So rifles get found out off the bench at 50 and 100m. I don't take much notice of the occasional good group if I can't consistently repeat it - unless ammo testing.
> 
> Some basic sporter 22s can be extremely accurate e.g. a Norinco EM332 that averaged 0.6" over four consecutive groups at 100m. Others like the CZ, Brno, JW15, Marlin 795/925/980/60 have no trouble dropping under 0.5" at 50m - *and importantly - averaging close to that*. Always the averages that tell a rifle's real story. 
> 
> It is in this regard that 10/22s fail. They might nail the occasional good group but cannot hold consistency. We've owned 6-7 and tested more and none were good shooters - very poor. Group averages from 1-2" at 50m. Best of them averaged 1.04" at 50m for set of 5 shot groups. By comparison two marlin 60 semiautos surprised the hell out of me - both touching the magic 1/4" for 5 shots at 50m, one rifle averaging 0.295" for 4 groups, and the other 0.39". That's serious accuracy. For a cheaper rifle marlin makes dam good rimfire barrels.  Some ruger 10/22s do shoot well but they are rare - depends where they were sourcing barrels at the time. Odd Shillen barrels around. Have found older rugers tended to be better made, slightly better shooters.
> 
> After testing dozens of makes of 22 however the 10/22 rates bottom for accuracy. And when we pulled them down three reasons showed up:  loose chambers on some, loose barrel pinning on many, and poor rifling issues on others. For example - when barrels were removed and a 22 slug pushed down barrel it might start tight then almost fall down barrel before finding tight section of rifling again near end of tube. Impossible to get accuracy out of that poor rifling situation. The usual solution is rebarrelling, or if slug test shows barrel ok you can get gunsmith to chop off chamber end, mill new chamber and thread it into receiver rather than continue pin set up. Costs a bit but can solve problems. You can also thread barrel and chamber and fit a marlin microgroove barrel to it. We had only one 10/22 that shot well - and it was no longer a ruger. Had mostly VQ parts, green mountain heavy barrel etc and the only ruger bit left was the trigger blade - $1100 spent on it by someone. The Marlin 60DL would match it on the range and was untouched, straight out of the box.
> 
> Hard to know why your 925M is shooting/cycling poorly Jake - I'd also suspect ammo type, but would be worth getting a gunsmith to cast an eye over it. They are usually v good shooters. Could be an extractor or spring or two could solve problem - shouldn't be a hard fix as they're fairly simple rifles.


Good summing up mg.
I have found the same thing as i sold my ruger and replaced with the marlin mod 60.
As a matter of interest what ammo was the most accurate in the mod 60?
The new lithgoww 22 that i bought is shooting as good as the marlin as i had my cz 455 mod 60 and lithgow out checking zeros for the kids swazi shoot and really pleased with all three.
I have dialing scopes on the cz and lithgow and let the kids loose at upto 200 yards with good results banging claybirds 
Accurate  rifles rule!

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## mudgripz

Marlin 60s tend to like all things CCI.  Most like CCI subs and standard velocity solids for range accuracy - and one of mine is also super accurate with 
winchester powerpoint. CCI minimag a good hunting round. So mostly CCI but each rifle will also have its own preferences.

I think ruger need a kick in the ar*e for not fixing the accuracy issues with 10/22s. They can make good accurate rifles when they wish to and should have solved this problem decades ago. Otherwise than its accuracy problems its a good wee carbine. It is notable that the marlin 60 has outsold it 13m to 6 million over last 50 years. Best 10/22 variant we had is the lovely little 10/22 model 96 lever action. Quite accurate at 0.7" at 50m, and no weaknesses - a wee gem and one of the best wee hunter 22s I've come across. Ruger can do it when they try!

I'd like to hear more about the Lithgow 22 Andy - discussion on this on nzrimfire.

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## TeRei

> I have seen hunters hit the ground in front of them


I have had a mate nearly shoot my foot off when climbing a fence with a 270 with a blind mag and he forgot he had chambered a round.

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## gundoc

> I used to have a Ruger 10/22 that would struggle to hit a 3 foot square from 50 yards, but my cheap norinco would hit a 1/2 inch circle on the same day. Still have the norinco / scrapped the Ruger.


Apart from a small number of 10/22's that came through with chatter marks in the bore near the muzzle about 6-7 years ago, most normal standard 10/22's can be made to shoot 1/2" groups at 50 metres without much hassle.  I used to do a 10/22 tune-up package for $70 ( thread the muzzle, crisp 2.5lb trigger job, tune for subs, buffer pin, and barrel refit) and that produced the 1/2" groups every time.  As they come out of the box they are hampered by a lousy trigger pull and poor barrel fitting (although the fit has improved a bit in the last 3 years).  Once the barrel fit problem is cured then the receiver and the barrel become one solid unit.  With a poor barrel fit and the scope mounted on the receiver, good accuracy is impossible to obtain.

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## anderset20

> Apart from a small number of 10/22's that came through with chatter marks in the bore near the muzzle about 6-7 years ago, most normal standard 10/22's can be made to shoot 1/2" groups at 50 metres without much hassle.  I used to do a 10/22 tune-up package for $70 ( thread the muzzle, crisp 2.5lb trigger job, tune for subs, buffer pin, and barrel refit) and that produced the 1/2" groups every time.  As they come out of the box they are hampered by a lousy trigger pull and poor barrel fitting (although the fit has improved a bit in the last 3 years).  Once the barrel fit problem is cured then the receiver and the barrel become one solid unit.  With a poor barrel fit and the scope mounted on the receiver, good accuracy is impossible to obtain.


That sounds semi easy and awesome


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## anderset20

@gundoc when you say you "used" to do a tune up is that something you could still do? Mine already threaded but just seems to shoot like shit. 


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## jakewire

Thanks for the comments Mudgripz, I've just come back to this thread, I still have the rifle in the corner of the cabinet so might as well get a varity of ammo and see how she goes.

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## Ground Control

Your ammo has more to do with your rimfire accuracy than just about anything else .
Unless the rifle has major problems , damaged crown , loose scope , bad chamber etc .
Most people know that they should try a few different types of ammo to find what their rifle likes , but usually that is 2 or 3 different boxes and then when acceptable accuracy isn't achieved the rifle is declared useless and a general waste of time .
I have about maybe 30 different types of .22 ammo in my cupboard and usually I can find something that the rifle likes . I've been asked a number of times to help get a 22 shooting right at my local club and ammo is the easiest thing to change and experiment with in an accuracy search .
You can't make a average rifle great , but you can make a great rifle average with the wrong ammo .


Ken

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## Breyt

Hi guys I'm stil South Africa but hopefully I will be in your country early Feb. I have been following your posts. Regarding accurate rifles what is the group size you shoot let's say at 300m ?.  What is your favourite caliber ?

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## mikee

> Hi guys I'm stil South Africa but hopefully I will be in your country early Feb. I have been following your posts. Regarding accurate rifles what is the group size you shoot let's say at 300m ?.  What is your favourite caliber ?


For me its as wee a group as possible, all thru the same hole is the preference but not there yet. Must practice more, must practice more.............
Something like this would be good (at 200m)

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## northdude

nice shooting

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## mikee

> nice shooting


not mine I'm afraid

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## mudgripz

+1 Ground Control's comments above. 

So often it takes just a little patience and 6-15 types of ammo (I keep maybe 20), and then you find what your 22 likes and it can be a very sharp shooter. Don't know how many times I've heard people comment on the poor accuracy of their 22 - a model that is normally sharp - only to find they are using crap or wrong ammos for it, don't bother to experiment, and just label it and the make/model a dud.

With a centrefire we experiment with loads - powder types/weights/projectiles etc to find an accurate round. In the same way with rimfires we experiment with different ammo makes to find a rifle's preferred round.

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## steven

Is any of the bulk 22LR worth trying?  my cmmg kit needs a hi velocity round to clear itself, and copper plated seems best, anything worth a go?

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## res

> Is any of the bulk 22LR worth trying?  my cmmg kit needs a hi velocity round to clear itself, and copper plated seems best, anything worth a go?


Maybe try cci blazer, cheep and solid nose for good feeding-made as a plinking round as I understand it and runs every semi I have tried it with. 
Did I mention that it's cheep? When buying by the case I couldn't find anything cheeper

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## steven

Highland hi vel is the best so far but that is about 2.5inch at 50yds.

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## Breyt

Thanks Mikee I note you also use a 6.5 . I just love my Tikka Sporter 260 shoots a similar group at 300m

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## Dangerous Dan

haha, those vids are terrible, but you are scraping the bottom of the barrel!

I would assume the avg. american is better than the avg. kiwi simply because of availability of rifles, ammo, pro gun culture (within reason) and proximity to range facilities means they simple can do more practice ...

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