# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  B Cat Holder Wanted!!

## Dougie

Hiya,

I am looking for a bit of a shooting coach in Wellington area, specifically for pistol shooting.

Very keen on getting some know-how from someone who might own a Glock or similar (Buretta 9mm or other 9mm for example). Preferably serving NZ Police or past Police member. Please PM if you are interested - will return your effort with some baked goods for the family, will pay for ammo. 

Cheers  :Have A Nice Day: 

Dougie

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## ebf

Dougie, if I was you I'd head to the closest IPSC club - there is one near Seddon (Heretaunga Pistol Club), probably one out Porirua way as well.

You can shoot to your hearts content, it will be practical, and no offence to service police members, but the typical member at your local IPSC club would have fired about 100 times more rounds and be in a much better position to coach you... unless you want training in police specific firearms procedures...

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## Dougie

Kind of do want some specific police training advice  :Have A Nice Day: 

I sit next to the AO at work, he agreed with me today that perhaps if I was a bloke and wore trousers and rocked up to a range and said "hey I want some help", I might get two genuine guys that could help me. But in my current position...I might get two genuine guys that could help, also mixed in with six weirdo guys that are, well, weird.

Care to chaperone me?  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Neckshot

I think some police want the same training :Sad: ,Ebf is right get to a pistol club and you will get bukku help there.failing that ive got a cop mate up here who shoots 9mm competitively who could help but he's here not there :Have A Nice Day:

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## Rushy

> I might get two genuine guys that could help, also mixed in with six weirdo guys that are, well, weird.


Dougie guys aren't weird. Women just don't understand them.

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## mikee

I could help but wrong Island and I no longer have a girls gun (shiny race gun with a Cmore same colour as my shooting shoes  :Have A Nice Day:   :Have A Nice Day:   :Wink:   , only a 1911 in .45. Find a club who shoots IPSC, You could ask on the Sport Shooters forum. New Zealand Travel ~ New Zealand Tourism ~ NZ Information.

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## ebf

most gun guys are weirdo's... haven't you learnt anything ?  :Grin: 

when mrs ebf gets her act together about joining heretaunga you can go with her, she takes no prisoners (no comments from the peanut gallery kiwi39 !)

see what you can arrange, will have to fit in with a fairly hectic target shooting calendar between now and feb... would be fun to have a blat with a glock again  :Psmiley:

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## Dougie

Maybe I should just take Mrs Safkiwi? That might be a better option. I just have my eyes on the top shot trophy. That requires practice.

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## Kscott

Suggestion : grip. Move left hand up so the web of your left hand between thumb and 1st finger is making the contact with the bottom edge of the trigger guard. That'll help you straighten out your right thumb and stop your left hand curling under the magazine. Can check grip by pulling your right hand away and gripping only with your left hand, should still be able to have a firm grip with just your left (weak) hand.

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## Littledog

If you were up in Aucks I would help but im one of those 6 weird ones!  :Wink:

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## mikee

> If you were up in Aucks I would help but im one of those 6 weird ones!


And I am the other 5

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## gimp

> Kind of do want some specific police training advice 
> 
> I sit next to the AO at work, he agreed with me today that perhaps if I was a bloke and wore trousers and rocked up to a range and said "hey I want some help", I might get two genuine guys that could help me. But in my current position...I might get two genuine guys that could help, also mixed in with six weirdo guys that are, well, weird.
> 
> Care to chaperone me?


like cops can't be weird/assholes

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## Rushy

> And I am the other 5


You and your multiple personalities Mikee, Mikee, Mikee, Mikee and Mikee.  Which one are you today?

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## Dougie

> like cops can't be weird/assholes


They might be, but they will have undertaken the tests that I want to ace..

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## Towely

If you want to shoot pistol well get a PISTOL shooter to teach you, not a cop. If you are taught properly first time and you avoid developing bad habits (hence not a cop for a teacher) your shooting skill will naturaly flow onto any practical test that the cops do.

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## mikee

> You and your multiple personalities Mikee, Mikee, Mikee, Mikee and Mikee.  Which one are you today?


Today I am Mikee and might be Mikee tomorrow, or maybe not............................................., I'll check with my wife  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Spanners

We prob put more rounds down range yesterday arvo than any copper would shoot in a year. 
The 'I'm in the police so therefore I'm an expert with a glock' is really chest puffing bullshit. 
If it was the police that taught you your grip I'd ignore EVERYTHING they say LOL
Might have been close for a webley in 1916 but its miles off

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## username

> Kind of do want some specific police training advice 
> 
> I sit next to the AO at work, he agreed with me today that perhaps if I was a bloke and wore trousers and rocked up to a range and said "hey I want some help", I might get two genuine guys that could help me. But in my current position...I might get two genuine guys that could help, also mixed in with six weirdo guys that are, well, weird.
> 
> Care to chaperone me?


I might have this wrong but what you are saying is that 6 out of 8 men are creepy weird bastards? WTF

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## R93

You dont have to fire thousands of rounds or be an expert to provide sound instruction on weapons handling. 
I may be assuming a bit much here, but Dougie being Army trained, is used to a standard and method of instruction that police and military trainers are trained to provide.
IMO, it is a superior method and format and better than I have ever seen from any civilian instructors that have neither military or police experience.
It is a skill sought out by many employers, especially here in Oz. I am in my current job because of my military experience as a trainer.

If I wanted the ultimate training and handling of a pistol, it would be from a black role special forces instructor. Those boys usually fire 3000 + 9mm rounds a day :Wink:

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## mikee

Todd Jarrett, And he is using a .45!!!!!!

Part of a training video done specifically for the military and law enforcement so not really aimed at Competitive shooters but good info on grip and sighting

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## Ground Control

> Kind of do want some specific police training advice 
> 
> I sit next to the AO at work, he agreed with me today that perhaps if I was a bloke and wore trousers and rocked up to a range and said "hey I want some help", I might get two genuine guys that could help me. But in my current position...I might get two genuine guys that could help, also mixed in with six weirdo guys that are, well, weird.
> 
> Care to chaperone me?


The police use a club that I'm a member of to practice and do secret police stuff at about 4 times a year .
Normal club members aren't allowed to watch what they do because of security and police procedures .
I have been there a few times to open up the place and to organise a few things in the clubhouse for them .
Before " leaving them to it " I have witnessed them starting their days shooting , and letting of rounds at targets .
I'm not trying to cause trouble or be derogatory to the police here , but they sure wouldn't win any prizes or even get a mention at one of our club shoots .
If you are after some specific police data of procedural techniques then I can understand your request . If you are wanting to learn to shoot better then go to a normal gun club . Contact the clubs president or secretary before going and ask them who they would recommend to give you some coaching .
If the police have done their job right , there won't be six weirdo's at the club , because they wouldn't have passed the police checks and club requirements to get their pistol licence ( well not here in Australia , I assume and hope its the same there )  .

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## Herbmiester

Dougie you should go to the Heretaunga pistol club on a Saturday after 1pm and just ask for either Bernie, Mark S or Herbie. We can show you how to shoot so that you will be safe and accurate. The skills you learn are directly transferable to anything the police do. If you need specific private training this may be possible just send me a PM and we can discuss. I have spent a bit of time with a couple of instructors at the Police college and what they teach about basic pistol shooting is very similar to what you would lean at a pistol club.

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## Dougie

"If you are after some specific police data of procedural techniques then I can understand your request "

That is exactly my request. Thank you for the PMs, I will be getting in touch  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Herbmiester

Just looking at some past comments, it looks like tactical training is being confused with firearms training. The two are separate and you need to master your firearm before you can look at how you can deploy it. I have the pleasure of shooting against soldiers every year and while the NZACST are excellent with a rifle many of them don't seem so confident with pistol or shotgun.

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## R93

FFS! :36 1 5:  :Grin:

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## Spanners

If you want to shoot a Police issue glock, I'd get onto a grip/ finger strength trainer ASAP
I know of a couple of females that struggle to squeeze the trigger let alone try to get any accuracy after the fact. 

NY or similar trigger kits from what I remember 14 or 17lb pull

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## Nibblet

> If you want to shoot a Police issue glock, I'd get onto a grip/ finger strength trainer ASAP
> I know of a couple of females that struggle to squeeze the trigger let alone try to get any accuracy after the fact. 
> 
> NY or similar trigger kits from what I remember 14 or 17lb pull


And isn't this way so many cops are average at best shots? 2lb trigger on a club members pistol vs 14lb trigger on a standard police issue trigger makes for some totally different accuracy.

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## Spanners

Yip definitely a contributor.

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## gimp

> If it was the police that taught you your grip I'd ignore EVERYTHING they say LOL


lolol

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## Neckshot

Put some shoe polish on ya mask put some black onseys on and beleive that your a bad mofo and your away,weather you can handle and shoot a pistol is errelivant these days isnt it you just have to read a book and look the part.

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## Neckshot

> Kind of the opposite. Its a piece of metal with bits that go click and snack and you put things in it that go bang. 
> 
> The idea they tell you some mytical secrets to how to deal with a small projectile launching machine, is essentially silly. Military and police are government departments. They are about as sophisticated and light on their feet as any other government department. 
> 
> The only time I have done weapons training with police officers, they had come to the gym I was in to learn from the guy I was learning from. He was marine scientist, former block layer and general clever/hard bastard. Those cops spent enough time with their guns to see holes in their training and look for ways to fill them (not NZ). 
> 
> Grappling with guns is actually quite fun. Adds a new/odd dimension. 
> 
> I guarantee you, your average Kiwi cop is as good as anyone at all the things required to not shoot a gun. 
> ...


You missed my point,having expelled a bucket load of rounds thru a Sig myself I don't class myself as an expert at telling someone else how to shoot a pistol 
But yet people still feel they know everything regaurdless of many rounds they have shot.Who care's how much people know because in the real world doing is far more important.

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## Ground Control

I have never had anyone shooting at me and I hope I never do .
I know a couple of people that have and they admit that when the lead started flying , finding something to hide behind and wishing they had been nicer to their wife and kids the last time they saw them , were the two most important things on their minds .
Correct technique of how high your elbow is and where your left thumb is positioned come very low down on the priority list at that point in time, in their opinion .
If you happen to stumble your way into the middle of a gun fight you probably stand a much greater chance of being hit as an innocent bystander , with all of the adrenalin pumping,  people don't hit what they aim at very often in those events   .

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## Neckshot

> I would find the old guy who who has ready every book and forum on the planet, and has been shooting pistols for 50 years. Or just read the books myself. 
> 
> If you don't know anything, the doing is pretty irrelevant. Its called being a moron. The world is full of morons doing things. Morons do heaps of stuff. Some people who know nothing, have been doing things for years. Arguably, you really only get better at being ignorant. 
> 
> A guy reads and studies and practices something for 50 years. What is the natural next step? Write a book. If you can read and remember the contents, you have the distilled version of his 50 years of experience. A far far better starting point for your own experience. 
> 
> You can teach yourself anything if you can read well. I taught myself to ski from online manuals. I read manuals all night Friday, went out Saturday and everyone said I was a natural. I was not. Experts allowed me to skip a whole bunch of experience by handing me theirs. I did the same thing with waterskiing.


I suggest you find the book on Cutting to the chase,you could just call me a mooron instead of waffling shit I wouldn't care.Ive learnt from doing so far in my life and its served me well, to think you cant do anything practicle without reading and understanding Is just arrogant bullshit.In the end this about Dougie having a go and it spirals into the usual game of 2 up witch dosnt have a book that im aware of.

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## R93

> I suggest you find the book on Cutting to the chase,you could just call me a mooron instead of waffling shit I wouldn't care.Ive learnt from doing so far in my life and its served me well, to think you cant do anything practicle without reading and understanding Is just arrogant bullshit.In the end this about Dougie having a go and it spirals into the usual game of 2 up witch dosnt have a book that im aware of.


I just want the book that will serve me better than any type of formal training, police or otherwise, that is now it seems, a waste of time.

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## Rushy

> I just want the book that will serve me better than any type of formal training, police or otherwise, that is now it seems, a waste of time.


I might go to the library tonight and get a book out on flying choppers R93. Watch your back mate I could have your job on Monday.  In fact fuck it I will have a good dream tonight and take it tomorrow. How hard can it be?

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## R93

> I might go to the library tonight and get a book out on flying choppers R93. Watch your back mate I could have your job on Monday.  In fact fuck it I will have a good dream tonight and take it tomorrow. How hard can it be?


If I can do it..............It would have to be pretty friggin easy Rushy. 
My flight instructors got sick of wiping my mouth with my bib to stop me dribbling into essential avionics :Grin:  I was also a handful when my sippy cup got empty :Psmiley:

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## Rushy

> If I can do it..............It would have to be pretty friggin easy Rushy. 
> My flight instructors got sick of wiping my mouth with my bib to stop me dribbling into essential avionics I was also a handful when my sippy cup got empty


Well I haven't read the book yet (nor had the dream) but hell two seconds of thought and I reckon up, down, forward, backward, left and right will have it mostly covered.  Ha ha Ha Ha. Now that I am on a roll I will read a book on Brian Barrett Boys and do open heart surgery on Monday instead. Your job is safe now.  On to loftier things.

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## R93

Anything to get a bigger sippy cup than mine eh? :Grin:

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## Rushy

Mine is a Tommy Tippee so I don't spill my juice. But I have got them all fucked because I just drop it over the side of my high chair and the top comes off.

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## R93

LMFAO!!!!! Tears in my eyes!

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## veitnamcam

If you really want to learn something and be good at it you will.
By any avenues you can.
Reading and instruction and practice is where everyone at the top of the game started.

If you are so committed to being the best or even just good at something you will read all you can on the subject. Filter the crap and digest the rest.

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## veitnamcam

In my other profession it was part of my job to train.
I tried to train people to think logically and laterally at the same time.
Where others would say you do it like this, i would say you could do it3 or4 different ways and explain the benefits and downfalls of each method verbally,with diagrams, and practically.

Invariably my trainees at the end of a trip would thank me and say they learnt more this trip than in their last 3 with someone else.

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## Rushy

You tripped on a training nugget of gold VC. We all learn best by a blend of seeing, hearing and doing.

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## R93

> Formal training means its all written down somewhere. In other words, its directly from a book.


I was just a dumb grunt. Your semantics are confusing me :Grin:

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## Toby

Personally I never got good at welding reading. I spent a hour each day at school for a solid 6months before it got good.

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## Toby

Mig welding. Compared to 99% of the other kids mine didnt look like birdshit. That welding is easy though (now) but the idea is still the same nothing beats doing it

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## R93

> It means you didn't get a copy of the book


I admit to being a dumb grunt and slightly in awe of your current training methodoligy. 

If I gave you all the written doctrine there is on say, a section sized attack on a fixed position. You should be able to train 10 of your chosen men how to accomplish this better than I could, going by your logic?
My experience in this regard counts for nothing?

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## Littledog

> but the idea is still the same nothing beats doing it


I 100% agree Toby, I love doing "it"! See I am one of those weird buggers! :Thumbsup:

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## Rushy

> I admit to being a dumb grunt and slightly in awe of your current training methodoligy. 
> 
> If I gave you all the written doctrine there is on say, a section sized attack on a fixed position. You should be able to train 10 of your chosen men how to accomplish this better than I could, going by your logic?
> My experience in this regard counts for nothing?


Add in the complexity of a mortar crew to provide cover and make it a nocturnal assault and I will join your section if you are short a man

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## R93

> Did you read anything I wrote? Where did I say experience counts for nothing? Suggesting experience alone is ever remotely productive is stupid. Suggesting just reading alone is remotely productive, also stupid.
> 
> However, if you gave me all the written doctrine available, that would only be a starting point. 
> 
> If I think "section sized attack on a fixed position" I think Charles Upham. Who was a surveyor, and is sited as having an utterly superb eye for terrain when attacking a fixed position. 
> 
> He had knowledge outside of the realm of military doctrine, and outside the realm of his own experience. 
> 
> Put it this way. If your rely solely on your formal training, plus the things you bump into (experience), you will never compete with someone who has the same experience as you, same training as you, but also has read widely, and therefore has the benefit of thousands of other peoples experience. 
> ...


Yes, I have read what you have written. You and others have in my opinion, have discredited formal training that is available to members of police and the like. 
Again my opinion, but I believe you are overlooking the reasons they are trained the way they are, by applying what is to you, a better and more logical approach. Yet, strangely you have no experience what so ever, being trained in and for their environment.

The police may not have the best pistol shots in NZ but I would expect they are trained to a standard that their current post/position requires. 
They are also trained in such a way that it may not show fruit in a pistol club competition, but it will give them the best chance of carring out their job of downing a crim if they ever need to.

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## R93

> Add in the complexity of a mortar crew to provide cover and make it a nocturnal assault and I will join your section if you are short a man


I am not short and only know the daylight "Up the guts assault" sorry, Rushy. You can go lead scout and I will call in DFSW and indirect, danger close :Thumbsup:

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## Dougie

Okay so if you guys are finished........

I am the one that started this thread. Simply put, I prefer someone who has been through the Police testing to give me a hand. Because they have done the test and know what it involves.

If the top shooter in NZ taught me, well cool stuff. I might still fail a police test because my technique might not be jumping through the hoops they require me to. Does that not make any sense?

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## R93

> Okay so if you guys are finished........
> 
> I am the one that started this thread. Simply put, I prefer someone who has been through the Police testing to give me a hand. Because they have done the test and know what it involves.
> 
> If the top shooter in NZ taught me, well cool stuff. I might still fail a police test because my technique might not be jumping through the hoops they require me to. Does that not make any sense?



+1 End of thread :Wink:

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## Dougie

> +1 End of thread


Thank fuck for that. Page one actually had it sorted.

Cheers mate.

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## veitnamcam

Just bet me to it dougie.

The trend here is, if you want to shoot well get trained by someone who can shoot AND train well.

Once you can shoot well a read of requirements for your test(or someone who has done it schooling you on what's involved) should allow you to practice any different points not covered by the sports shooter.

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## Dougie

> They might be, but they will have undertaken the tests that I want to ace..


Sorry it was in SECOND post, still before you started to rant.

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## Toby



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## Ground Control



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## Neckshot

I prefer pub logic............arguments start followed by some frantic windmilling cunts tip over and someone wins, weather you were wright or wrong or just plain fucken arrogant the missus always has the last word............weather your right or wrong you should learn to just fuck up sometimes.

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## Dougie

Look! I had the last word.

Word.

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## Spanners

Having a look back now, I originally interpreted it as wanting to learn to shoot properly and to the best of your ability rather than to simply pass a test. 
There is a heap of info and help presented here in more than one form, but end of the day it's up to the individual to decide what they want to do and achieve. 

I shot not bad for 2 yrs and 10k rd's... 5 mins of elbow work with someone that actually knew what they were doing instructor wise and my groups halved and speed almost doubled. 


I personally scoff when someone mentions guns and military training.. 
Because you get to qualify a couple times a year and use a gun as part of your job ans wear camo and march around 350days a year or issue speeding tickets doesn't mean they have any actual skills or correct training 
those involved usually have little to no actual skills and techniques that have been developed on the last 70+ odd yrs
Many procedures, postures and grips predate WW2.
I'm not going to try and justify my comments other than i have experienced it to a certain extent and if you WANT to shoot better and spend the time researching, reading and practicing and/or getting training from someone that has some idea, you will soon find out for yourself, the easy way of the hard way.

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## R93

> Having a look back now, I originally interpreted it as wanting to learn to shoot properly and to the best of your ability rather than to simply pass a test. 
> There is a heap of info and help presented here in more than one form, but end of the day it's up to the individual to decide what they want to do and achieve. 
> 
> I shot not bad for 2 yrs and 10k rd's... 5 mins of elbow work with someone that actually knew what they were doing instructor wise and my groups halved and speed almost doubled. 
> 
> 
> I personally scoff when someone mentions guns and military training.. 
> Because you get to qualify a couple times a year and use a gun as part of your job ans wear camo and march around 350days a year or issue speeding tickets doesn't mean they have any actual skills or correct training 
> those involved usually have little to no actual skills and techniques that have been developed on the last 70+ odd yrs
> ...


You are obviously after a bite but if thats your honest opinion ref the military, your ignorance is truely astounding. :roll

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## Tarrbaby

PM sent Dougie  :Thumbsup:

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## ebf

spanners, firearms training in a civilian competitive context and in a paramilitary context are two FUNDAMENTALY different things  :Wink: 

And to make a generalised statement that small arms training in the military has not advanced significantly since WW2 (your words, 70 years) is pretty astounding.

I've personally had the benefit of both types of training, chalk and cheese mate  :Grin:

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## R93

When the Army adopted the P226 in 92' I was sent on the original fam cse. It was run by the top shot and weapons instructor from SiG. Sweedish fella. He was ex-military, but what the fuck would he know. :Have A Nice Day:

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## R93

> Every territorial soldier who did his basic training will tell you he is the elite of the elite, the sharp end of the best fighting force the world has ever known blah blah blah. Really military training is not the best way to do anything. Its a way that most people can get right, most of the time, and a way that a bunch of guys that can't find their shoe laces most of the time let alone tie them can be made moderately effective. 
> 
> Some people come out of the military knowing all kinds of stuff. They are lost in the mire of the thousands of people grossly exaggerating their effectiveness. 
> 
> Before you all have a cry, I have spent plenty of time in the bush with ex-army guys. They are like a perfect cog in an awesome machine, trained extremely well to do the job of that cog. And what can a cog do if you take it out of the machine? Not much. 
> 
> Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. I will believe the "military elite" line when I see it. Yet to see it.


The Military would do it self proud having you and spanners giving the final stamp of approval on potential recruits so they can only hope to aspire to your level of..........Legen............wait for it.................dary. :Thumbsup: 

You should be given honourary Wings and Dager embloms and have your portraits in all unit headquarters :Thumbsup:

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## ebf

And we're off again  :Grin: 

In the same way that there is a fundamental difference between civilian competitive training and paramilitary training, there is also a world off difference between firearms training for basic army units vs specialised units. 

And Tussock, PLEASE READ THIS SLOWLY : *different*, not one is better or worse..., you are the guy who is making this a "military training sucks" debate.

In exactly the same way that I detest the typical wannabe TF weekender claiming to be the second coming of some elite force  :ORLY:  having someone who has sweet blow-all military training or experience spout off about how pathetic it supposedly is, is not a lot better in my book  :Psmiley:

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## Neckshot

> Every territorial soldier who did his basic training will tell you he is the elite of the elite, the sharp end of the best fighting force the world has ever known blah blah blah. Really military training is not the best way to do anything. Its a way that most people can get right, most of the time, and a way that a bunch of guys that can't find their shoe laces most of the time let alone tie them can be made moderately effective. 
> 
> Some people come out of the military knowing all kinds of stuff. They are lost in the mire of the thousands of people grossly exaggerating their effectiveness. 
> 
> Before you all have a cry, I have spent plenty of time in the bush with ex-army guys. They are like a perfect cog in an awesome machine, trained extremely well to do the job of that cog. And what can a cog do if you take it out of the machine? Not much. 
> 
> Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. I will believe the "military elite" line when I see it. Yet to see it.


Go fuck you're self  :Grin: 

Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2

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## ebf

Neckers, not really sure that is the solution...  :Wink: 

What if he manages to impregnate himself ? You'd get a super distilled tussock mini-me, imagine trying to have a debate with that  :Grin:

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## Neckshot

> Neckers, not really sure that is the solution... 
> 
> What if he manages to impregnate himself ? You'd get a super distilled tussock mini-me, imagine trying to have a debate with that


I'm just taking the piss I'm to retarded to be on this forum.
:what::eek::screwy::sly::confused:

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## Neckshot

> Why are you mad at me? Should not you be mad at the guy who told us he got his broken nose "training hand to hand combat with the SAS" but actually got it from a nerdy kid from Uni who weighed 40kg less than him? Or the guys who turned up in full webbing and talked for hours about their training, then got blisters and had to sit in the van? Or the guy who was "special forces" and only lasted 4 hours in camp (that is a actual record). Or the guy with 20 years in the army built a million dollar camp in a wadi in the dry season? One guy was pretty clever but he still wrote evac procedures which nearly got me killed. 
> 
> Like I said. All the good ones lost in the mire of the shit talkers. Its not my fault if all the stuff I have heard has never ended up matching up with what I have seen. So yeah, talk up the army shit to your hearts content. But you might want to do something about the tall tales.


You're just as big a shit stirrer as us common people tussock and your a moderator,of your so high and mighty why don't you set a good example.that's what clever cunts do


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## R93

> Why are you mad at me? Should not you be mad at the guy who told us he got his broken nose "training hand to hand combat with the SAS" but actually got it from a nerdy kid from Uni who weighed 40kg less than him? Or the guys who turned up in full webbing and talked for hours about their training, then got blisters and had to sit in the van? Or the guy who was "special forces" and only lasted 4 hours in camp (that is a actual record). Or the guy with 20 years in the army built a million dollar camp in a wadi in the dry season? One guy was pretty clever but he still wrote evac procedures which nearly got me killed. 
> 
> Like I said. All the good ones lost in the mire of the shit talkers. Its not my fault if all the stuff I have heard has never ended up matching up with what I have seen. So yeah, talk up the army shit to your hearts content. But you might want to do something about the tall tales.


Not mad at you all Tim, just amused tbh. You know I think well of you and would happily share a beer or a camp with you anytime. I just disagree with you in this instance. However, I agree, there is a lot of weekend warriors out there. But I am sure you will agree and would be able to filter out the weirdo's  when the credibility is just in their demeanor not their words. :Grin:

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## Kscott

> Look! I had the last word.
> 
> Word.


You'd hope. But no  :Grin:

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## Spanners

> You are obviously after a bite but if thats your honest opinion ref the military, your ignorance is truely astounding. :roll


It wasn't for a bite. 
There is a big difference to studying for a test and learning the content , rather than being given the answers the day before hand. 

So basically if you have anything to do with the armed forces you are automatically a pro right??
This is the attitude I disagree with. 
So many times we have army both current and past and police turn up to shoot with the attitude 'I'm in the army or police - I know what I'm doing' and proceed to grip the pistol like its their 1st time picking it up and generally shoot like shit. 'This is the way we are taught'
Doesn't mean its right or current and can't be improved but you hit a brick wall that goes up 'I'm in the armed forces, therefore I know'
The taught grip is 100yrs old.. For a gun 100yrs old that was out of date before WW2

If you can't seem room to improve and want to maintain the army or police knows best mentality then whatever floats your boat

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## Spanners

> spanners, firearms training in a civilian competitive context and in a paramilitary context are two FUNDAMENTALY different things 
> 
> And to make a generalised statement that small arms training in the military has not advanced significantly since WW2 (your words, 70 years) is pretty astounding.
> 
> I've personally had the benefit of both types of training, chalk and cheese mate


Fundamentally different ?? The fundamentals of grip, stance and sight picture should not change 

If you're into history or old military firearms etc have a look at the publications over the years and wars. Less the over the top bayonet march they are damn near the same from ww1 to Vietnam. Even looks like the drawings were done by the same fella  :Have A Nice Day: 
Some really neat old stuff

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## R93

Your latest post is nothing like your last. I would have to agree and sympathize with you on the last one. 
I know and accept the military or police do not know everything or what is best. But in some cases, the standard of training and expectations in certain roles is higher than you will ever encounter on the outside. It has to be, or any muppet could be SAS for example. 
As ebf said there are many different branches of both that require different standards. They can be worlds apart, even in the same unit.

Plonkers that show up to shoots and announce they are military or police are just plonkers. IMO they are generally dishonest and have not learnt that actions speak way louder than words.

I know a lot of people would disagree, but I get a tad defensive when the military (Army) is challenged on here. :Grin:  I always will, and make no apologies for it as long as I dont get banned :Thumbsup: . 
I have had a pleasure and the privilage as a soldier, to see and do things that a lot of people could or would not do. I was able to do it with some of the highest calibre Kiwis, I consider a privilage, just to know. :Wink: 
I know it is not always intended and usually I can handle being insulted personally, but not them.

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## R93

Analytical buggers, those "Drop Shorts" (Arty) :Grin:

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## ebf

> Fundamentally different ?? The fundamentals of grip, stance and sight picture should not change


Some of the fundamentals are different. Stance/concealment is a good example. Weapon retention is another, pretty important if you are a police officer,  a non issue for Joe Blogs at the range.

But I think you misunderstood me, the difference I am talking about is that military training (at least at the basic level) is all about bare bones competency, and also uniformity. In a platoon you want people to do things the same way. You also learn a different skill set in terms of firing while moving, house clearing etc. bottom line is they teach you how to be a soldier, and how to react in combat.

Civilian competitive shooting is all about individual excellence, and fine tuned to a particular discipline like IPSC.

Most first world countries, including New Zealand, now use electronic systems to do qualification, and also to diagnose problems with rifle skills. These things show you all kinds of detail about sights, barrel movement etc.

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## Spanners

And thus the issue of no tone and context via short text.
It's a lot easier to discuss with words spoken rather than iPhone screen
Intention/point/argument is still the same, maybe 5th time lucky we're getting there lol

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## kiwi39

For fucks sake. 

Are you guys trying to get fit by typing or something ??


Tim

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## Ruger1022

What a rant ! at the pistol club I belong to there are several serving police officers who shoot at the club to get more range time to improve their shooting skills - training and range time are both required to excell, just look at the rounds shot by the top IPSC guys or the military elite

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## kiwi39

> It's an internet forum not high tea.


Acknowledged , however 

FFS !!!!

Anyway all the foaming mouths seem to have died down now...

Or maybe they're Saving their energy  :Wink: 

Tim

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## Dougie

Shit is this thread _still_ going? I've been too busy down at the pistol range to notice....

 :Have A Nice Day:

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## mikee

> Shit is this thread _still_ going? I've been too busy down at the pistol range to notice....


mee tooo, .45ACP rules

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## Rushy

> Shit is this thread _still_ going? I've been too busy down at the pistol range to notice....


You started it Dougie.

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## Tankd

What some are missing is that when it comes to "Millitary Shooting" it is a case of "Fit for Purpose" .This is where the trainee only needs to attain a certain level of proficency.For example a ShitHawk piolot who got a score of(air to ground) 20 out of 100 was a good shot ,if a grunt got that he would have his arse kicked till his nose bleed.
     It is all about what use the Trainee will put his skills to ,a grunt dose not engage in individual combat where a SAS man will (so he needs to be more proficent in his shooting) and your Airforce /Navy types are better off dropping the rifle & running away.
    So if the purpose of this thread ,for Dougie ,is to pass a police proficency test then learn from a police shooter .If it is to learn how to shoot go to a shooting club.

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## R93

> your Airforce /Navy types are better off dropping the rifle & running away.


 :Grin:  :Grin:  :Thumbsup:  LMAO at that one. I have shot with some good shooters from either branch, but that was funny.

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## Rushy

> I have shot with some good shooters from either branch, but that was funny.


Yes but being Army you would never admit to it unless it was their shout. Ha ha ha ha

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## R93

> Yes but being Army you would never admit to it unless it was their shout. Ha ha ha ha


So very true.  :Thumbsup:

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## Kscott

Will this thread make it to 10 pages ?

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## MattyP

> But in my current position...I might get two genuine guys that could help, also mixed in with six weirdo guys that are, well, weird.
> 
> Care to chaperone me?


"Current position"? Is that liable to change? Hahaha.

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## Aurochs

As a former British Army Range manager, I would say go and see the best scoring IPSC shooter you can find and ask them for some help. Its not all in the handling of your wpn, a lot is mental stuff, thought processes and target/sight picture.

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## MattyP

> But in my current position...I might get two genuine guys that could help, also mixed in with six weirdo guys that are, well, weird.
> 
> Care to chaperone me?


"Current position"? Is that liable to change? Hahaha.

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## Aurochs

As a former British Army Range manager, I would say go and see the best scoring IPSC shooter you can find and ask them for some help. Its not all in the handling of your wpn, a lot is mental stuff, thought processes and target/sight picture.

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