# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  6.5 Creedmoor load development

## Wingman

I have fairly recently entered the world of 6.5 Creedmoor after 20+ years of favouring .308win. 
I strayed to this fad/trendy cal with scepticism and apprehension but a lot of curiosity and sat down to watch every youtube vids and read hundreds of forum posts etc 

I was torn between a custom build 6.5x47 Lapua or a factory 6.5 creedmoor and was leaning the way of x47 lapua but after finding a cheap platform in Creedmoor I decided that was a better way to cut my teeth on the 6.5cal . 

I eventually picked up a Remington 700 Tactical in Creedmoor and some Redding competition dies proceeded to experiment with accuracy and velocity. 



Id consider myself an experienced reloader with plenty of match load seasoning but Im am almost embarrassed to say that the Creedmoor cal has challenged me and taught me more it 6 months than my 25+ years of reloading match grade ammo in any other cal. 
It has been the hardest to tune load I have ever come across any has been plagued with pressure issues. I think I have tried every brass, powder projectile and primer combo out there available for this cal and very nearly threw in the towel writing it off all together as a bunch of exaggerated online hype. 

That was until I tried something a little left field and hit the mother load.
I am almost afraid to mention the powder I use here for the fear it will deplete the NZ supply with its sudden spike of demand. 
I can proudly say I have found my Creedmoor load nirvana.

The case is nothing more than a slightly oversized Bench rest style case and actually has a bigger case capacity than the 6.5x47 Lapua which seems to have no drama at the 3000fps mark. This was the mind frame that got my results. 

Sure Creedmoor can be loaded to 2600 to 2700fps in 24"+ tubes with fair hunting accuracy using many of the easy to get powders and loading components but when I finally had the break through that combated high pressure and hang fires (powder v/s primer related) I was reaching velocities over 3000fps with 139gr Lapua Scenars with perfect ignition and no dangerous high pressure signs.

I have actually cut my heavy barrel back to 20" from 24" to get the best efficiency/accuracy node to suit this load and have now settled on a ragged hole cutter load of 136gr L Lapua Scenars running at 2910fps at are still supersonic at 1450 yards. 

This cal has been an OCD adventure and a fun challenge that has had me pulling my hair out at times but looking back on it I learned so much from it that it has changed that way I look at reloading other cals.

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## Gibo

Trade it in for a 270 job tidy

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## Flyblown

So when you’re ready, I will be first in the queue of those dead keen on hearing all about how you managed it. Sounds like it could be an epic write up, with some potentially quite profound outcomes.

(For those that haven’t been on the 65CM journey, those numbers would rattle a fair few cages, if repeatable in other cheap standard factory rifles, for damn sure.)

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## Kiwi Greg

Nice  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Wingman

Yip this will be a lengthy thread boys so sit back and grab a brew, Ill add to this write up over the next few days and as time allows 


Now before I even start on the journey to velocity and accuracy I need to make very clear that high pressure loads in my rifles are not an option, even more so in this particular project rifle as it was destined to be bedded into a custom Bullpup chassis I have been working on which places my right nostril over the breech.

I guess what Im trying to say is there was no room for error in this process so I needed everything to be right with my final load to feel at ease when pulling that trigger.








During the load development stage I had it set up in MDT LSS chassis and glassed with a Tac Vector Optics Paragon 6-25x55. 
I started out with the full 24" 1-8" twist factory Remington tactical profile barrel (same as the varmint). The following months of load testing, chrono work and paper punching was done in this format.

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## Flyblown

Funny. I’d never thought about the consequences of a catastrophic fail in that config until you mentioned your right nostril. Now I get it.

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## Wingman

I guess I also need to mention that I intended from the start to cut this barrel down somewhere between 18" and 20" to keep it a super compact platform in the pup stock and end up at approx 765mm total length without the suppressor. 

So with that in mind I grabbed a few powders that I had on the shelf that I thought might achieve decent velocities in a shorter barrel. 
I have always favoured ADI AR2208 for my .308's and .223s as they have always grouped the best for me with a variety of rifles and projectiles so that was my first trial along with some 2209 that everyone else seemed to recommend in this cal. 



I was loading brand new Lapua small primer brass with federal gold medal match primers and a variety of decent projectiles with modest loads and firing them over a chrono in +2gr icroments until I was happy with a starter load. 

So started with lighter loads to fire form the brass to max capacity and to run in the new barrel.
I shot 5 shot groups from a prone position and off front and rear bags for all the initial testing.
I was pleasantly surprised to see all the breaking in groups all under an inch at 100 yards with the best one being a very respectable 5 shots in a 1/2" with 38gr of 2208 behind 130gr Sierra TMKs with a string of 2720fps, 2727fps, 2720fps, 2719fps and 2726fps. Unfortunately my wooden backboard was quite shot up in many of the spot behind these groups so it didnt make for many clean holes to measure centers etc.. take it for what it is and we will move on as its not until the next trip to the range thing got remotely interesting. 



Second best groups went to the 139gr Lapua Scenar with 36gr of 2208 shooting a .660" 5 rnd group  at 2570fps AV and 11fps ES with the same 139gr Lapua pills nipping at its heels at a .79" group loaded with 41.5gr of 2209. That 5 shot barrage got an AV of 2733fps with a ES of just 6fps.  Here's some pics of the targets from that day before I wrote all over them, for what its worth they are 1" squares and my groups were measured CTC. There was a light wind from right to left but it was fairly consistent. I still have this "paper work" as a reference but from here on is where the wheels of my Creedmoor experience really came of....

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## rambo-6mmrem

Started my creedmoor Journey today

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## Wingman

So I was happy with the accuracy but with a shortened barrel in mind the velocities were not quite what Id hoped for. This is where I admit I was green when entering into this rocky relationship. I honestly thought this cal could do much better. I kept falling back to my .308 pet loads pushing 150gr pills to 2850fps with very little effort and my trusty old .30BR pushing 130gr pills to the same speeds on a case half the size.  I guess I had been reading a lot of 6.5x47 results from guys with 28" tubes spitting them at mach 3 and didnt really think to hard on the possibility of slightly larger capacity Creedmoor case not doing the same on a shorter barrel.



After getting home, documenting my results and looking at the brass I found quite a few anomalies. 
Firstly the load of 2209 at 41.5gr behind the 139gr Lapua scenar was noted at the range as too hot. Although a very nice tight group and 6fps ES it had a slightly tight bolt lift, flat primers, sharp edged firing pin craters and a minor ejector ring mark.  

Now here is where I must make mention of my Remingtons normal characteristics and in fact nearly every Remington 700 Ive owned with the exception of my early Remington M700 Police LTR that went through remingtons custom shop.
The firing pin hole is over sized so primer cratering is a normal phenomenon in this rifle. I have polished the sharp edges of it to help a little but it is something I live with as I dont see a benefit in personal safety to do the popular bushing mod to it. 
The ejectors are also way over sprung and are prone to denting case mouths and scratching up the side walls of your expensive shiny brass as they withdraw from the chamber with way too much side loading... so it got the snip and the face of the ejector was rounded off and polished as was the sharp edged hole it protrudes from. 



Now these characteristics all come with new challenges as it makes it much harder to read pressures of your loads from the cases. 
Many years of reloading and knowing the M700 action well I took all of this into consideration while working up my next loads.
This is where I warn you all... if you intend to replicate what I am about to share with you, be sure you have a clue what you are doing or stop now as this can be dangerous. I can say now I am at the other end of it that the Creedmoor case though more than one surprise at me along the way that  ive never seen before in other cals and if it wasnt for me spotting early signs along the way it could have got nasty. 

Now at this point I could post a lot velocities or photos of cases and primers and go through all my ladder load tests I did with various components but I know you will blow past it and skip to the end anyway so instead I will share the following link... this guy spells it out better than I can and I really dont have the time to go through all of my test records and explain the relevance to this load work up.  

*https://www.primalrights.com/library...nding-pressure*

I know this link has been shared here before but it is important right now to every one of you, seasoned expert or beginner reloader, as like I said this case is full of strange surprises nothing short of possessed! 
Read it and read it again, understand every bit of it especially the last part where he is testing the Creedmoor case right to total failure. 
If you don't spot these pressure signs through all the other "quirks" of your rifles action you are asking for trouble.

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## Wingman

> Attachment 94062
> Started my creedmoor Journey today


Congrats! that looks great  :Thumbsup:  

I hope it will be a smoother journey than mine was and you can take something from this thread..

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## Flyblown

@Wingman, which powder or bullet manufacturer were you referring to for load data? Any or all?

There is a big discrepancy between them as you know. For H4350/AR2209 its now 40gr for Hodgdon, whereas Hornady is 41.5gr for the same powder (for a 140gr bullet). Several of the powder manufacturers seem to have _reduced_ their max loads in the last couple years, whilst heaps of BR and other shooters have significantly _increased_ the loads to past 43gr, especially since the advent of Lapua SR brass.

And of course we have popular YouTube channels testing Lapua brass past 43gr, Johnny, 65 Guys, etc.

I wonder if any of the powder or bullet manufacturers have done load testing with the thicker walled Lapua SR brass.

Right, well I am very keen to see the subsequent chapters, keep ‘em coming.

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## PERRISCICABA

Following!

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## Dorkus

@Wingman thanks for taking the time to write up your experience. That link is a very well written intro to pressure and one I am very glad I read. I think everyone who reloads or has a mate reload for them needs to read it. I know I will certainly be having a closer look at my fired brass when I get home as I learned a lot in reading that article.

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## Wingman

This stage of the development is were it got hairy and disappointing and I very nearly scrapped the cal all together. 
From here on my once fired Lapua small primer brass was tumbled OAL trimmed, deburred, uniformed flash holes neck sized only and I bump the shoulders back just a couple of thou.

I ran numerous ladder tests with both the 130gr TMK and the Lapua 139gr Scenar that were the favoured bullets at initial testing, both of which showed great dimension and weight consistency but pressure signs were very early to raise their ugly heads in both 2208 and 2209 powders. The 2208 was expected due to its faster burning properties and max loads for that in my rifle were around the 38.2gr with the 139gr bullet. 
The 2209 on the other hand was just disappointing in both early pressure signs and accuracy. Although slower burning than the 2208 it is a little bulkier which meant anything over 41gr had the projectile up against it and bordering on a compressed load.
Something I found out really early with this case even when I tested some slower powders is the adverse pressure gain as soon as the powder was at full case capacity or slightly compressed. 
I also noted some aggressive primer cratering with the Federal match primers *(more than my rifles normal rolled crater cause by the loose firing pin hole) and slow ignition on the compressed loads (mild hangfires) so I tried some of the harder capped and hotter CCI primers. I tried the std CCI 400, the hotter CCI 450 SR magnum and the benchrest CCI BR-4 primers all of which reduced the cratoring back to normal levels and showed a lot less flattening around the edges. I had to give the CCI BR-4 the slightest edge over the others but only because it showed a slightly better velocity std deviation than the others  although still not as good as the softer Federal gold medal match primers but the trade off for the risk of a punchered primer or hang fire to me was a no brainer. 

This month long escapade took me down the road of looking for lighter bullets as I was starting to think the 140gr realm for this cal was optimistic at best and maybe should be left for .260Rem and larger cals..  I was in the mind set that creedmoor will be more suited to the 120gr range. 
Even after testing some 123gr Lapua Scenars I have a stack of, (my Grendel's favourite diet) I was left feeling flat as unlike its 139gr big brother the group size with the lighter 123gr bullets opened up as the velocity increased in my rifle and my expectation of this cals long range ballistics faded. I already have a 6.5 Grendel capable of 1000yds with theses 123gr so why do I need a Creedmoor that does the same thing only a little flatter with all the extra powder inefficiencies and headaches it has brought me? 



So rather disappointed with the lighter bullets and both the ADI powders I shelved them and went searching for something that may get me a little more velocity in the 130gr to 140gr pills with a shorter barrel but keep the pressure to a minimum.

After a lot of research I found the Sierra web site mentioning some respectively fast loads for the 130gr TMK and 142gr SMK which my rifle seemed to favour, the powder they were listing was Aliant RL16 and RL17. Both seemed to get good speeds but after researching a little deeper the RL16 had better temperature stability and was a little slower burning so should produce slightly lower pressures than the RL17 in the Creedmoor case. 
It was ordered and I eagerly awaited its arrival.



While waiting for its arrival I also found the new match bullet, a 136gr Lapua Scenar L bullet which seemed like just what the doctor ordered, a super high BC comparable to the 139gr but shaped a little different in the boat tail and a sharper ogive angle like a Berger match bullet. Many match shooters will know this design can be a lot harder to tune a load for but can be more accurate than its counterpart once all things are equal. 

Left to right: Lapua Scenar 123gr, Lapua Scenar 136gr L,  Lapua Scenar 139gr 



I tried many other bullets and other components along the way but none of them are worth a mention here, just a lot of trial and error like most load development. Ill try and keep just to the relevant info. 

It was here that I had my first real win with this cal. The RL16 had arrived and I had worked up some much better velocities with the 139gr Scenars using ladder tests of 0.1gr increments again stopping at the first signs of pressure. The RL16 seems to be the ticket in this cal and I was reaching speeds of 2950fps with only minor pressure signs starting to show, nothing even comparable to the 2209 pushing the same bullet at 2730fps.
However I was noticing the same issue as the ADI powders where pressure spiked as the case got to full capacity and the projectile contacted the powder when seated.
This is where I started doubting the pressure signs I was seeing and started thinking maybe it was the small primer pocket masking a lot of what was actually happening. 
To rule this out I picked up some once fired Federal large rifle primed brass and fire formed them to my chamber, they got the same match case prep treatment as the Lapua brass got as well as annealing.  



I then loaded them with a Federal gold medal match large rifle primer, this is a primer I have used for about 15 years in many cals and was very familiar with it characteristics in .308win.
I dropped the same lighter charge of 42gr of the RL16 behind some 139gr pills in both the Lapua brass and the Federals and ran them over the chrono.



The Lapua brass shot an average of 2796fps and the Federal shot an average of 2875fps. Same Load, different brass....  80ish FPS difference in speed between the two, now Im getting somewhere. real world pressure signs I could read with confidence. 



(note: the very slight polished wipe mark close to the primer on the lapua brass was from an earlier firing before I polished of the sharp edges on my bolt face)

As you can see the Lapua case still shows no signs of high pressure, yes it has the rolled edge cratoring but as I have explained this is normal in my rifle and is no better with a super light load. Look closely at the edges of the primer and you can see it has barely flatted at all, it still has very rolled edges and there was no wiping or ejector marks which this rifle is prone to showing at the slightest pressure spike. The case grew within normal specs and there was no brass migration or gain in OAL. 
In fact I can run this lapua brass as high as 44gr with the RL16 (2950fps ish) before I start to see faint ejector rings and flatter primers in my rifle.

Now let's look at the Federal brass in contrast. It scared me a little and in hindsight I should have worked up from a lighter load with it to start this test. The primer was flat and the crater had sharper edges too. There was a definite ejector ring and wipe on all the federal brass and the bolt had a noticeable drag on the lift. Unfortunately this  picture doesnt show the wipe as bad as it was but it was the only pic I took of this test. 
Moving on from the obvious signs I started measuring the dimensions of it.. heres where it got ugly.
The primer pockets were stretched to a point where the primers could be seated by a push by hand on a table top.
The case had grown in length, (I didnt document the actual measurement) This brass had the same treatment as the Lapua brass with a neck size only and a slight shoulder bump of a couple of thou so it was not due to excess head space or or over resizing the shoulder etc..
This was an "all cards on the table" very high pressure load  brass migration was obvious and the swelling around the base of the cases cup was visible to the naked eye. The case had been pushed well beyond what its natural spring back allowed and pressures were far too high. Continuing on with this load in this brass would eventually result in case head separation and or primer rupture.

The Federal brass is at the front of this pic, Lapua behind it. Look at the dark section at the base of the federal and you can make out the bulge.




Now this part of the test although a little stupid on my behalf taught me something and changed my mindframe to what I now know and put me on a path to find better brass that can cope with what I feel is the Creedmoor's biggest design flaw.. spiking high pressures right as you reach respectable speeds and accurate velocity nodes.

Now I hear you all ask with baited breath "what brass is available that will trump  Lapua's offering of the small rifle primer brass that has got me to the results I have so far???....

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## Wingman

> @Wingman, which powder or bullet manufacturer were you referring to for load data? Any or all?
> 
> There is a big discrepancy between them as you know. For H4350/AR2209 its now 40gr for Hodgdon, whereas Hornady is 41.5gr for the same powder (for a 140gr bullet). Several of the powder manufacturers seem to have _reduced_ their max loads in the last couple years, whilst heaps of BR and other shooters have significantly _increased_ the loads to past 43gr, especially since the advent of Lapua SR brass.
> 
> And of course we have popular YouTube channels testing Lapua brass past 43gr, Johnny, 65 Guys, etc.
> 
> I wonder if any of the powder or bullet manufacturers have done load testing with the thicker walled Lapua SR brass.
> 
> Right, well I am very keen to see the subsequent chapters, keep ‘em coming.


I dont tend to follow any manufacturers data as you all well know every rifle has its own quirks and some can be pushed, some cant.
I start every adventure like this by lots of online reading and browsing the odd data sheet to find a starting point but I dont take anything as gospel until Ive tried it myself. 

From experience most bullet and powder manufacturers are very conservative and most BR shooters exaggerate. There is a happy medium but its for the individual to find the safest path. 

Something I will go into shortly is the massive variation in pressures with various bullets of different bearing surfaces and thinner jackets etc. 
I noted very interesting spikes in pressure with some lighter bullets compared to relatively low pressures with heavier bullets like the 143gr ELDX with the same charge behind them. I was and unusual creedmoor lesson on more powder behind a lighter projectile didnt always equate to more velocity than less powder behind a heavier one

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## Danny

Thanks for taking the time. 
With the increased popularity of the 6.5CM this will be down the path of many and may save some Headaches!
Many calibres are far from their potential best and while most are happy its a great feeling cracking some extra FPS or accuracy and knowing its safe as a house on fire. 
Hope you post again soon...

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## Flyblown

Loving it. Keep it coming.

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## rambo-6mmrem

Yeah @Wingman this is a good thread reading with interest

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## Gibo

Question on brass. If I have stamped brass in a previous rifle but it still chambers etc. fine in a new one, would you still bin it? What damage has been done would you suspect? That link has got me thinking all sorts of things about the way I treat brass  :Grin:

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## Flyblown

@Wingman, are you able to provide a lot number for the AR2209 you were using?

Thanks

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## 10-Ring

> ....The 2209 on the other hand was just disappointing in both early pressure signs and accuracy. Although slower burning than the 2208 it is a little bulkier which meant anything over 41gr had the projectile up against it and bordering on a compressed load......


Just goes to show how much variation there is between different rifles. With my Tikka T3x 6.5 CM 45gns of 2209 will only reach slightly below the neck shoulder junction with Lapua fire formed cases. My overall cartridge length with the 140gr ELD-M is 2.940 and the base to ogive is 2.240 - both measurements seated .010" off the lands. I don't use 45gn 2209 in my rifle but have done so safely.

The best thing I did after I bought my 6.5 Creedmoor was to ditch my old CHRONY as it was very inconsistent in it's accuracy and buy a Labradar. Currently testing the Peterson SR brass too.

Please keep up the excellent reports Wingman - very interesting.

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## johnd

@Wingman you have an excellent writing style, thanks for posting all this.

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## Wingman

> Question on brass. If I have stamped brass in a previous rifle but it still chambers etc. fine in a new one, would you still bin it? What damage has been done would you suspect? That link has got me thinking all sorts of things about the way I treat brass


If by stamped brass you are referring to extractor marks it really depends on severity and how you go about prepping that brass for the new chamber. 
Pressure high enough to give you that kind of marking can be minor with little lasting effects or like in the link I shared it may look minor but lasting damage has been done to the brass that has in turn shortened its life regardless of the chamber its fired in. it depends on where that brass has take the pressure damage and each piece should be inspected for tightness of primer pocket and over all dimensions. 
Brass flows and will be migrating every shot regardless of pressure so all cases have a lifespan... just what than span is depends greatly on the user and honestly Creedmoor and I are still not intimate enough in our relatively fresh relationship for me to even guess and average number of firings the Lapua brass will yield at any given load data. My Lapua brass is on its 6th load and it took a punishing with ADI 2209 tests so Ill watch it closely an retire it when it once its had a few OAL cuts or when the primer pockets lose their tension which is the norm with this thicker small rifle primed Lapua brass in most cals.
Many people over work their brass when full length sizing or even neck sizing by bumping back the shoulder excessively. it only need a couple of though to headspace correctly and chamber with a smooth bolt closure. The shoulder does blow forward to a certain extent if you keep up with your annealing and full lenth cutting etc but it also stretches the thicker cup out at the base of the case which runs a much higher risk of case head separation. This excessive shoulder bumping practice alone will kill your brass quicker than a few hotter loads will.  

Use light loads to reform the usable brass to your new chamber and inspect it again. A good s/s or media tumble will hide old ejector kisses but dont let this give you a false sense of security. Keep a close eye on the post fired dimensions above the cases thick section at the base.. if its bulging each time and then just getting resized, there is a good chance it getting thin and brittle.

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## Wingman

> @Wingman, are you able to provide a lot number for the AR2209 you were using?
> 
> Thanks

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## Gibo

> If by stamped brass you are referring to extractor marks it really depends on severity and how you go about prepping that brass for the new chamber. 
> Pressure high enough to give you that kind of marking can be minor with little lasting effects or like in the link I shared it may look minor but lasting damage has been done to the brass that has in turn shortened its life regardless of the chamber its fired in. it depends on where that brass has take the pressure damage and each piece should be inspected for tightness of primer pocket and over all dimensions. 
> Brass flows and will be migrating every shot regardless of pressure so all cases have a lifespan... just what than span is depends greatly on the user and honestly Creedmoor and I are still not intimate enough in our relatively fresh relationship for me to even guess and average number of firings the Lapua brass will yield at any given load data. My Lapua brass is on its 6th load and it took a punishing with ADI 2209 tests so Ill watch it closely an retire it when it once its had a few OAL cuts or when the primer pockets lose their tension which is the norm with this thicker small rifle primed Lapua brass in most cals.
> Many people over work their brass when full length sizing or even neck sizing by bumping back the shoulder excessively. it only need a couple of though to headspace correctly and chamber with a smooth bolt closure. The shoulder does blow forward to a certain extent if you keep up with your annealing and full lenth cutting etc but it also stretches the thicker cup out at the base of the case which runs a much higher risk of case head separation. This excessive shoulder bumping practice alone will kill your brass quicker than a few hotter loads will.  
> 
> Use light loads to reform the usable brass to your new chamber and inspect it again. A good s/s or media tumble will hide old ejector kisses but dont let this give you a false sense of security. Keep a close eye on the post fired dimensions above the cases thick section at the base.. if its bulging each time and then just getting resized, there is a good chance it getting thin and brittle.


Thanks mate  :Thumbsup:

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## viper

Geez this has sort of put me off the Creedmore, was on my maybe list at some time.

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## 10-Ring

> Geez this has sort of put me off the Creedmore, was on my maybe list at some time.


The 6.5 Creedmoor has a reputation for being an easy cartridge to develop an accuracy load for. I've found this to be true in my case, however that's with the caveat of only trying five powders and nine different bullets of various brands, weights and designs for only 800+ shots. Even the worst groups were well under an inch at 100m regardless of load I tried. Obviously though, Wingman's experience differs and he's done a very fine job of explaining his intelligent and methodical approach to come up with an accuracy load that suits his particular rifle. You may find your 6.5 Creedmore, if you obtain one, equally as frustrating or equally as easy I did to find a good accuracy node for the bullet you want to use.

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## Wingman

So a quick search of small primer brass available for the Creedmoor came up with Starline Brass and Peterson match brass. I ordered both.
Unfortunately while waiting for my Peterson brass from the USA I was notified the Starline brass was sold out.. I figured Ill try the Peterson first.

The weeks went by and I had an "all else fails" fall back load I was happy with that pushed the 139gr to 2890fps with 44gr of RL16  that was continuing to cut fantastic groups and would be a great hunting round too.

Now this is the part where I was torn.. to cut or not to cut... 24" was getting just enough velocity and great accuracy with the load I had, but my bullpup chassis was almost complete and I need to make a desision. 

Again I hit the internet and stumbled across this great bit of informative experimentation. 

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-5...p-a-creedmoor/

I wasnt too interested in velocities and temperatures etc but I did take one valuable piece of data from it. 
his barrel at 24" long shot the 142gr SMK at 2683fps and when cut back to 20" shot it at 2609fps.
A drop of 74fps using H4350, now that I could live with knowing my velocities are already respectable and I could still use the 130gr TMK if velocity truely fell apart with the shorter barrel and RL16.  So.... off it came.. 



I was very happy to find only lost 62fps with the same load. The rifle felt a lot more balanced and lighter in the MDT chassis too so I was really keen to get the pup chassis finished for it to bring the weight back even more. 

The Peterson match brass finally arrived after getting lost in transit and re-sent but I was impressed with what I recieved. Ive never used this brass before now so had no idea what to expect.
Very nicely packed in its own foam lined plastic box with anti-corrosion protection and a bunch of papers. 









So back to brass prep with a debur and a fire form then neck size and shoulder bump. 
The first thing I noticed was this brass was much thicker an weighed more than the Lapua brass. That's a positive thing for the tendency of high pressure in this Creedmoor case. 

My load of 44gr of RL16 in the Lapua case was not compressed and was just under the top of the case shoulder. The same 44gr in the Peterson brass was well compressed and was in the base of the neck. 

Instantly I could see this would follow the trends of high pressure as the case got closer to the full mark or was compressed by the projectile while seating. 

However I ran another ladder test with a much lower start load of 42.4gr and right up to 44.2gr. in 2gr increments. (my max safe charge in the lapua case is 44.5gr)

I reached the state of mild powder compression at 43.2gr and this is where the velocity dropped a crazy 100fps over the next 0.4gr.
This is where I should have stopped the ladder test and called my max load with this brass at 43gr. Interestingly the last velocity with the 43.2gr RL16 almost matched my load of 44gr in the Lapua brass at 2884fps.
The compressed loads continued to climb in velocity all the way to 2972fps at the max charge but also showed consistently increasing pressure signs of flatter primers and ejector rings the eventually turned to smears in the last two loads. I must mention that even though these loads were hot non of them had any inkling of a sticky bolt lift, a case stretch or primer failure..... many match shooters would still shoot them this way and just drastically reduce the working life of their brass.
This is not an option in my platform as I have talked about earlier.





So this new brass runs the same velocities and pressure as the Lapua brass does with 1gr less of the same powder and the added brass thickness was a welcomed upgrade. 
Now I just needed to find the answer to lower pressure while keeping as much of this available velocity that teased me at the upper end of the ladder tests...

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## Kiwi Greg

Very interesting reading but please get a better chronograph

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## 10-Ring

The Peterson brass is now available from Workshop Innovation. 

Have you tried RE26 Wingman? Not easy to obtain though.

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## Flyblown

> Geez this has sort of put me off the Creedmore, was on my maybe list at some time.


Id caution against being out off Viper - havent digested everything above yet, will go through it this evening - but neither my experience or that of my business partner (who I copied) were anything like this. Were not benchrest fussy, far from it, but achieving 2800fps and sub MOA was easy.

Im also with @10-Ring, my AR2209 has behaved itself and Ive also been quite high but not as high as him before selecting a node that worked for my purposes. Havent checked the lot number yet, will do later.

Love the detail @Wingman, already got a long list of questions, sure others will to. 

Ill also throw out a bone and say that Ive already told @Wingman by pm that my Creedmoor load dev was done with a dodgy chrono that was proven wrong by drop testing first time out in the field.

----------


## Wingman

> Very interesting reading but please get a better chronograph


I understand your concern but after many crossover tests with other chono's and rifles and matching my ballistic charts to its read outs, it is "bang on the money".. even if it didnt cost me much money  :Have A Nice Day:  

In the even of a chrono giving bad readings it is still valuable for shot string consistency and your true velocity can be tracked and pinpointed through a ballistic program.
It can also be checked with sub loads with a known altitude and speed of sound.  In this case my old trusty checks out. 
Ive owned many chronos over the years , some better than others but I trust my left nut on this one  :Wink:

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## Kiwi Greg

> I understand your concern but after many crossover tests with other chono's and rifles and matching my ballistic charts to its read outs, it is "bang on the money".. even if it didnt cost me much money  
> 
> In the even of a chrono giving bad readings it is still valuable for shot string consistency and your true velocity can be tracked and pinpointed through a ballistic program.
> It can also be checked with sub loads with a known altitude and speed of sound.  In this case my old trusty checks out. 
> Ive owned many chronos over the years , some better than others but I trust my left nut on this one


Having owned several Ohlers, a shooting cronie, magneto speed, now a Labradar & soon to be two I'm glad I'm not your left nut  :Wink:

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## Wingman

> The Peterson brass is now available from Workshop Innovation. 
> 
> Have you tried RE26 Wingman? Not easy to obtain though.


I did have RL26 on my radar when I first saw the Sierra load data but after reading about its temperature instability and the fact I was intending on running an 18" or 20" barrel the RL 16 was just a better first option. RL26 was nil stock when I bought the RL16 too so that decided it. 

I dont want to discourage anyone buying this cal or trying other things here, this is just a documentation on my rocky creedmoor journey.
To be honest if it wasnt for that early one 5 shot ragged hole group with the ADI 2208 at 2730fps (and a few others around 2550fps) I would have either sold the rifle and/or built a more suitable 6.5x47 on the bullpup chassis. those early groups showed that this cheap rifle could perform but my early high expectations of this cal fell short on velocity.

Id agree, 6.5 Creedmoor is a reasonable easy cal to work up loads for (even in my rifle) but I was trying to push it to limits I thought were the norm and falling well short with pressure problems. How ever I stand by what I said saying this cal is possessed and high pressures seem to come from very minor changes in components and dimensions so be on your toes or it will bite you on the ass. 
It nowhere near as easy to work up or as forgiving as many other cals out there but that depends on just how much of a OCD ballistic geek you are...

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## Wingman

Its interesting to me to hear about others experience with ADI 2209.. only a very light load of it shot remotely well ( MOA or better) in my rifle. I also favoured the 2208 over it as I knew it not only was a lower case fill it produced tighter groups and had a better chance of retaining the higher velocities in the cut down barrel. To be honest I havent revisited either of those powders  since the RL16 turned up and I have cut the tube down to 20". Maybe its worth a few loads on paper next time Im out. 
Out of all the powders and projectiles I tested in the beginning the 2209 was by far the most unstable in my rifle and the only powder that spiked the pressure fast enough to cause a stiff bolt lift and ejector smear with as little as 41.5gr which seems to be a mild load for this powder for many others loading this cal. Just revisiting my range note book and both the 143gr ELDX and 139gr Lapua Scenar with the same 41.5gr load was noted as "too hot, stiff bolt, do not excede 41gr".

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## Wingman

The final chapter in my story (not likely to be a sequel :Wink: ) was addressing the bullets over all length with the hope to gain back some more space in the case it was getting apparent to me that all of the tested powders were reacting badly to a full case or compressed loads. 
I am running the AI style mags in my pup chassis and selected the steel Accurate-Mag brand without the front block to get a total allowable total load length of 2.965". 

My loads till then however were loaded to give me a 20 thou jump to my lands which was just a starting point at the time, I was yet to revise this when I got to the fine tuning stage of the load. 
However, I decided to test a few of my new pet loads of 43gr RL16 behind the 139gr Lapua with a shorter jump of 10 thou to test my powder capacity v/s high pressure issue theory.  

Bingo! 40fps gain in velocity just like that with none of the pressure signs a 0.4gr powder increase would have induced at that velocity.
Now I got thinking... 

I was not sure what the std measurement of the throat length is on the SAAMI specs and didnt think to look it up at the time but I now knew how to ditch a lot of pressure... 
Im not sure if the Remington 700s throat is shorter than some other manufacturers throats but I didnt go searching either.. Im guessing it is a happy medium of matching with an average bullet weight and length to ogive and the M700s pathetic internal mag length.
At the time I just put it down to the fact the case was designed to run out of an AR10 upper which limits the overall bullet length to the std AR10 magazine internal dimensions. Again I still havent chased all those figures.
Without knowing all these figures I can only speculate that this is the reason for such a variation of results documented by other Creedmoor owners.

THE FIX: I seated some my rifles prefered projectiles to my max mag length of 2.965" and took some careful measurements from base to ogive and then took an average over the three 130gr TMK, 136gr Scenar L and the 139gr which gave me 100 thou to play with. This meant a minimum jump of 10 to 20 thou was possible with all three bullets loaded to full mag length. 
In the lathe it went and out came 100 thou of the factory cut lands with a piloted throat reamer. 

You can picture excitement as the first few test loads went over the chrono.. and yes you guessed it, another big drop in velocity but also a very low pressure load. I gained 100 thou of air space between the powder and the back of the projectile! This meant I could work my loads up further with additional powder and not see any adverse effects on the pressure until it got close to compression again. 

To cut a long story short this lead me to many more load tests to find a consistent tight sub 1/2" group and eventually had me decide on the 136gr Scenar over the 139gr scenar due to ever so slightly better groups at 200y and a fraction higher speed or slightly less pressure than the 139gr bullets.
I backed my speed off to a AV of 2910fps which gives crazy little ragged hole groups at 100y and a slightly better SD than the faster loads did. 

For the safety of those who will have skipped to this end of my thread to try the load at the end, I will keep my selected powder weight to myself but I will encourage you to at least try the Aliant RL16 and Peterson brass because its a big part of the battle behind you. Check your maximum load length in corolation to your lands and you magazine and find the best relation there too. Work your loads up slowly and stop at the first signs of pressure. 

All the other details of my pet load are as follows:

Peterson Match brass OAL 1.916", CCI BM-4 primer, Aliant RL16 powder, Lapua 136gr Scenar L bullet, OALL  2.965", 0.015" jump to lands.

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## Wingman

> Just goes to show how much variation there is between different rifles. With my Tikka T3x 6.5 CM 45gns of 2209 will only reach slightly below the neck shoulder junction with Lapua fire formed cases. My overall cartridge length with the 140gr ELD-M is 2.940 and the base to ogive is 2.240 - both measurements seated .010" off the lands. I don't use 45gn 2209 in my rifle but have done so safely.
> 
> The best thing I did after I bought my 6.5 Creedmoor was to ditch my old CHRONY as it was very inconsistent in it's accuracy and buy a Labradar. Currently testing the Peterson SR brass too.
> 
> Please keep up the excellent reports Wingman - very interesting.



Thank you for those OAL figures buddy, that goes to confirm my theory of various throat lengths from the various manufacturers. 
I can now make sense of how you fit larger 2209 charges without the high pressures I was seeing in early testing. 
My modified throat now take loads almost the same dimensions you have given me and Id have no doubt if I replicated your loads now they would be safe in this rifle "hypothetically speaking and considering all other variables such as barrel internal diameters twist rates and rifling design and drag were equal.."

When the Remington was set up in its std tupperware stock with the internal mag, the internal mag dimension was 1.80" give or take but there was no way you could seat your bullets out even that far in this rifle because even if you could get them to feed past the feed ramp they logged well into the lands at that length. 
I think it would be fair to say even certain factory loads in this rifle would be running too much pressure. The Hornady super performance for one would be a brass killer should someone want it to feed to one of these std factory chambered Remingtons.

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## rewa

Great thread, I wonder what the RL16 would perform like in 6.5x55SE. I have a Sako AV in this caliber, which appears to have a very short throat compared to others I have owned, and is giving similar pressure issues in what is not usually a "finnicky" caliber to reload.

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## Flyblown

@10-Ring, what does the Tikka CTR magazine you are using allow as a maximum COAL?
 @Wingman, my Howa Varmint allows a maximum COAL of 2.910 seated 0.010 off the lands, with the 143gr ELD-X. The action dimensions though only allow a COAL of 2.850 for ease of top loading and feeding. This doesnt have any ill effects though.

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## Puffin

I found Lapua brass in 6.5x47 seemed to stretch more on first firing with a moderate load than expected, giving the impression of high pressure on extraction. This may have been behind your AR2209 experience? Perhaps your brass is similar in composition and manufacturing process (as the cases are in design) and prone to the the same behaviour?  For a given load it affected some cases more than others in a way that could have been interpreted as "spiking". QuickLoad couldn't match the velocity and powder charge to the pressure signs by a large margin so I knew something odd was up.  It settled down on a repeat firing,  and then I lightly annealed and that fixed it completely.

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## Wingman

> I found Lapua brass in 6.5x47 seemed to stretch more on first firing with a moderate load than expected, giving the impression of high pressure on extraction. This may have been behind your AR2209 experience? Perhaps your brass is similar in composition and manufacturing process (as the cases are in design) and prone to the the same behaviour?  For a given load it affected some cases more than others in a way that could have been interpreted as "spiking". QuickLoad couldn't match the velocity and powder charge to the pressure signs by a large margin so I knew something odd was up.  It settled down on a repeat firing,  and then I lightly annealed and that fixed it completely.


A very likely theory, I didnt measure the virgin brass before the first firing and compare it to resized dimensions but that is very likely. However I fired about half that virgin brass with 2208 and hotter loads than the milder 41gr 2209 loads without any sticky bolt at all.. I would have thought the 2208 would have produced higher pressures than the 2209. This Is why I first suspected the full case was lifting pressure beyond what it should be as the 2208 had a lot of empty space under the projectile. 
I should try a few more 2209 loads with the same original deep seated COAL at some stage to try and replicate the initial results.

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## Flyblown

@Wingman, your AR2209 lot is different to mine. Mine is MEM5675. Its been used in Creedmoor and 243 without issues.

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## 10-Ring

> @10-Ring, what does the Tikka CTR magazine you are using allow as a maximum COAL?.


Flyblown - My Tikka 6.5 CM is a 24" barrel SS T3x Lite not the CTR. The magazine cartridge space is 75mm or 2.9527". Tikka did their homework on this model and have made available plenty of mag length and throat length to seat the longer 6.5 bullets out where they don't interfere with case capacity. They can do this as the Tikka T3/X action only comes in one standard, do all cartridges length.

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## ebf

@Wingman, interesting thread  :Thumbsup: 

assuming you mean BR-4 primer (not BM)

did you go back to check 2209 / Lapua brass combination with the longer throat ?

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## Wingman

> @Wingman, interesting thread 
> 
> assuming you mean BR-4 primer (not BM)
> 
> did you go back to check 2209 / Lapua brass combination with the longer throat ?


Yes sorry.. brain fart.. too many late nights... yes CCI BR-4.

No I havent revisited the 2209 at all since I got such great results with the RL16. Im off to punch some paper with it shortly so will load a few up and give them a go.

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## Flyblown

What H2O capacity did the Peterson brass yield? I've seen somewhere that it is listed at 53.1gr.

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## Wingman

I cant recall that sorry and I didnt write down.. they are all loaded up along with some Lapua brass with 41.5gr of 2209 and 143gr ELDX for testing.. Ill be back from the range in a couple of hours and Ill check for you.

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## 10-Ring

> What H2O capacity did the Peterson brass yield? I've seen somewhere that it is listed at 53.1gr.


I'll check it for you. Just resized 40 Peterson cases so I'll have to donate a live CCI 450 primer.

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## 10-Ring

Well, I tried. Filled a new case with water but it's just about impossible to get all the water out to weigh so gave up. Weighed the case dry and filled it up and it doesn't give reliable readings. I'll try again later.

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## Flyblown

Erm, how about weighing an empty case and then a full case? Appreciate you trying to help me calcs, I'll post you a primer!

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## 10-Ring

No need, I used a spent primer, just reseated it. Okay, after several tries. Had to poke the air bubbles out of the case with an Allen key got two readings of 50.90gn Will now try it on a new Lapua case. Both cases have been trimmed to the same length.

The Lapua case holds 51.14gn. A difference of .24gn. Not as much difference as I would've expected. Of course most cases of the same brand are going to be slightly different in weight anyway even if their capacity is the same. All measurements taken on an A&D FXi 550 scale which is accurate to 1/50th of a grain or 0.02gn.

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## Wingman

El cheapo Frankford arsenal digital scale but similar results. The Peterson case is about 4gr heavier than the Lapua brass and held 0.8gr less water.


Peterson



Lapua


Peterson


Lapua


Ill write up todays range report tonight.

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## Wingman

Got out to the range today and set up for some more test loads. I had to shoot from 110yds as my 100yd prone location was a mud pit after the rain. 

I loaded up a few rounds of the 143gr ELDX in Lapua brass and also twice fired Peterson brass with 41.5gr of ADI 2209 and seated them to my pre chamber mod COAL of 2.754" this gave a massive jump to the lands but Im really just looking at pressure not accuracy. I also loaded 5 with the same charge and seated them to fit my mag wich gave 15 thou jump to the lands, this is to see if the velocity and pressure dropped off and see if accuracy got better. 






This is 5 shots of the Lapua 136gr Scenar in Lapua brass with RL16 powder. 
The first cold bore shot of the day with a clean barrel (boretech eliminator) was the low one in the group  and showed a lower velocity of 
2862fps then 2895fps, 2898fps, 2893fps & 2900fps. Even with the low shot it is a 1/2 MOA group at 110yds. The brass shows nothing remotely exciting going on.





The next was 5 rounds is my other pet load of 130gr Sierra tipped match kings in Lapua brass with RL16 powder. 

2946fps, 2938fps, 2951fps, 2946fps, 2942fps

Another boring sub 1/2 MOA group.  Those are my control groups in which I hope to demonstrate the rifle shoots and my hand loads are consistent. The brass also shows no signs of high pressure.



Now for the 2209 that gave me so many problems at the start...
First up the exact same load with deep seated ELDX that I noted as too hot and sticky bolt in my notes. One thing to note is my old data was with the 24" barrel shooting an average of 2730fps but the extreme spread was terrible. It is now at 20" so the drop in velocity was expected.

2606fps, 2626fps, 2651fps, 2625fps, 2631fps

The brass showed the same high pressure ejector marks as before and the bolt had notable friction on the lift. The group was about 1.4"ctc which is by far the worst group Ive shot in this rifle, to be fair the drop in velocity probably can be blamed for that as they still shot under an inch in my first tests.






No this is where I got a bit negligent and put the same load and deep seated ELDX into a Peterson case knowing that these cases show higher pressure than the lapua have with the same charge and bullet. 

You will see I chickened out after 3 rounds but you get the gist of what the results were.. 

2590fps, 2562fps, 2587fps

Notice the additional drop in velocity as my fancy match brass takes the hit instead of the projectile.. :Oh Noes: 








A this point my barrel and suppressor were heating up and it was starting to rain, I pressed on and sent 5 rounds of the same 2209 load in lapua brass only this time pull out to mag length and 15 thou off my new lands..

2641fps, 2649fps, 2636fps,  2652fps,  2544fps,



Now here's where it gets interesting, no sticky bolt lift and only very minor ejector ring scuffs that are hard to see in these pics but it circles the 6 on the stamping.  But take a look at the primers.. this is the flattest I've seen a BR-4 primer, it is flat to the point where it is no longer round and material has flowed to the edges to form a mushroom like burr that you can catch a fingernail on when dragged over it. The firing pin cratering is also bad with sharp jagged edges. All 5 of these primers are in worse shape than the last 3 Peterson ones yet the brass only shows very minor wiping.  





Id love to hear some others on this one. Why is IMR AR2209 aka H4350 behaving so badly in my rifle yet it is the go to powder for 90% of other 6.5 Creedmoor shooters?

The only thing Im yet to rule out is a bad batch of powder. Its only a couple of years old and smells as it should but I guess I cant rule that out unless I try another batch.

A look back at have documented in my initial range testing notes says this:

143gr ELDX with 41.5gr of 2209  AV of 2726fps with 49fps ES and a group of .832" ctc "too hot, heavy bolt lift"

139gr Scenars with 41.5gr of 2209  AV of 2734fps with 11fps ES and a group of .791" ctc "light pressure signs"

130gr Sierra TMK with 42gr of 2209  AV of 2766fps with 8fps ES and a group of .710" ctc "light pressure signs"

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## rewa

See if someone here has a bit of "fresh" powder they can sell/donate ,to eliminate the powder-condition variable...

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## 10-Ring

Wingman. I would say almost certainly you have a bad batch of AR2209. The two 500g lots I've used up were ME M5675 and ME M5583 plus 1lb H4350. None gave any excessive pressure even up to 45gr with the 143 ELD-X and 46gr with the 129 SST.

With 44.6gr AR2209 and the 140gr ELD-M I got the follow this morning:

2772fps
2771fps
2767fps

ES 4.87
SD 2.67

Only fired the 3 shots as the range is only 2 minutes drive from my place and has good solid concrete benches. Might have to contact Kiwi Greg about a Bartlein as I love shooting the Creedmoor because of it's accuracy and the barrel won't last too long. 

I've found the 6.5 Creedmoor the easiest cartridge next to the 6 PPC I've ever developed loads for. Been reloading since 1974 and precision loading since 1988 when I bought a unused Remington .222 benchrest rifle with a Hart barrel and Jones Custom Products hand dies etc.

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## Moa Hunter

Slightly off topic boys but a friend has a creedmore and I suggested that the 125grn Partitions would be a very good hunting bullet balance to the creed. Good high velocity and extended hydrostatic shock range instead of the over-penetration and short hydrostatic shock range with the heavy for cal projectiles commonly being used.

Any thoughts ???
P.S this is a terrific forum and I appreciate the effort that has gone into these postings

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## 10-Ring

> Slightly off topic boys but a friend has a creedmore and I suggested that the 125grn Partitions would be a very good hunting bullet balance to the creed. Good high velocity and extended hydrostatic shock range instead of the over-penetration and short hydrostatic shock range with the heavy for cal projectiles commonly being used.
> 
> Any thoughts ???
> P.S this is a terrific forum and I appreciate the effort that has gone into these postings


Don't see why they wouldn't be good killers. However, some 6.5 CM's seem to shoot more accurately with the heavier bullets and they also generally have the advantage of a higher BC for long range shooting as well if someone is into that.

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## Flyblown

Yup @10-Ring, its the extended range accuracy that I like. The 143gr ELD-X deals with wind much better than my 150-165gr .308s, and I’m better at shooting them as the recoil is more manageable when shooting in tricky positions. After about 400m the 143gr 6.5 hits harder than the .308 and at 600m there’s no contest.

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## 10-Ring

Same as Flyblown, love those 143 ELD-X for their flat trajectory. This fat fallow was shot on a very steep downhill slope at 296 yards. Bullet entered just below the right eye and exited as in the pic.

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## NZ_noddy

This thread has been an interesting read. I've certainly found that AR2209 and 140gr ELD-M's in my Howa
chassis rifle with 24" barrel has been the easiest load workup in memory. I'm using 41.5gr @ OAL of 71.5mm
(2.815) in Lapua SR brass. 2680fps, tiny groups and no pressure.
Yes, I could load hotter, but the plates or the game won't pick the difference.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

Damn some of you guys make developing a load sound like a chore

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## Wingman

> Damn some of you guys make developing a load sound like a chore


Nope.. been a lot of fun  :Thumbsup:

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## Wingman

Thank you all for you contribution to this thread.

I have a new batch of 2209 to pick up on monday to do some load development on a friends .260 Rem so will try a few more loads in mine to see if the pressure signs remain.  Ive lost intrest in using this powder now anyway as the RL16 performs so well but I will be nice to curb the curiosity.
 @10-Ring,  Nice to see someone else who knows how to put an animal down humanely without destroying half the usable meat  :Thumbsup:

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## longrange308

So is the 143 the pick over the 147?

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## Flyblown

> So is the 143 the pick over the 147?


I haven’t tried the 147gr. It’s a totally different bullet to the 143gr, basically an A-Max.

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## 10-Ring

All shooting is good fun, but it can become obsessive.

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## Flyblown

Ive been doing some Quickload modelling of the AR2209 loads listed in post #53 with @Wingmans dimensions and the speeds are pretty much as expected. The modelled chamber pressure however is the same as the RL-16 loads that give 250-300fps higher velocity and considerably less pressure signs.

I have had problems getting AR2209 to model correctly in Quickload for my validated (drop tested) velocities, except I have the opposite problem, I have to increase the burn rate to match higher actual velocity compared to modelled velocity.

At the end of the day, I dont think Wingmans AR2209 velocities are too low per se. They compare pretty closely to many others listed on the interweb. The pressure signs at 41.5gr however are significantly different to the normal experience. I tested the exact same powder charge in my rifle during load development and didnt get a hint of pressure.

I think this is a case of Wingmans barrel doesnt like that particular batch of AR2209 as much as it likes RL-16 for whatever complicated interior ballistics reasons that Ill never understand. Whether it would behave itself with another batch is probably a moot point.

Whats great about this thread is that it proves something we read about reloading but sometimes (often?) fail to put into practice. And that is perseverance. I know Ive stopped at a point where its a case of meh, well, could be better, but cant be bothered. Thats for a near enough is good enough kind of load, like my .308 woods gun. But if you want to shoot goats in the head at 500m, this is the kind of effort youve got to put in. So thanks for sharing Wingman.

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## Flyblown

It is of course also worth pointing out that what Wingman has achieved is a semi-custom result, not one that will necessarily be possible in a lot of rifles. i.e. the extended COAL.

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## johnd

I think its also worthwhile to note from his tests that not all chambers and barrels are equal and a load from rifle A should not be used in  rifle B without working up.

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## chalkeye

Who sells RL 16 in NZ?

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## Kiwi Greg

> Who sells RL 16 in NZ?


I (Terminator Products) have some.

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## Wingman

No one sells it.. I bought it all before posting this thread mwaa ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... :Grin: 

To be honest I selected RL16 to shoot the 130gr TMKs fast in a relatively short 20" tube.. if your barrel is longer and you want to shoot the 140 + gr pills I'd go to RL26. You will get scorching velocities and much lower pressures.  

After my poor pressure and accuracy results with 2209 I was leaning towards 2208 a max load of 38gr gave me 2700fps with the 24" barrel but shot one holers all day long. The RL16 is a tad slower burning than 2208 but faster than 2209 and gave me 3000fps with 44.2gr. With the cut down 20" tube I got 2940fps but Ive back it off to a load of 44gr at 2900 which matches the POI and accuracy of my other 136gr lapua load at 2910fps.

The TMK is my hunting load and the Scenar is my paper puncher/varminter

The new Aliant powders have a great name for adding 200 to 300fps of velocity over other brands seemingly without the additional pressure. Their new temperature stability is an added bonus too. 
Like everything though it may be faster but not all rifles will group well with a particular powder. In this case Im glad mine did.

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## Kiwi Greg

> No one sells it.. I bought it all before posting this thread mwaa ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa...


LOL my DG store tells a different story, have RL26, 33, 50 as well as many others  :Have A Nice Day:

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## longrange308



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## rambo-6mmrem

Hay  @Wingman just finished reading all this 
You have probably saved me alot of time mate
Might just go to RL16 was gonna go try 26 but you seem to be getting good results 
Every rifle is Different as we all know  but hay if it works for you id be silly not to try it
Will order a tin tomorrow 

I plan to use 130gn vlds

I just got my can with the 20 inch tube its still pretty compact

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## Wingman

Yip can looks great! Id say RL16 will be the winner in your 20" tube too. Mine loves the 130gr TMKs and 136gr Scenars but will be testing some 130gr vlds this week. 
Post your results here as Id love to see how you get on with it. 

Tested my scales up against two sets of my mates scales tonight and they were spot on so that rules that theory out..

My brass has been tumbled neck sized and re-anealed today so all set for the next tests.
I also picked up my new batch of 2209 from him so Ill re-test that same troublesome load of 41.5gr in it too to rule out a bad batch of powder.

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## Wingman

Well after a couple of test loads of the new batch 2209 can safely say tht it was my other batch of 2209 that was giving me the pressure spikes. Very interesting and not something Ive ever seen to this extent. 
So 41.5gr of the new batch of 2209 shows no signs at all of high pressure at all. No ejector imprint or wipe, no heavy bolt lift and no flat primer or ugly sharp cratering. I would be more than happy to push this load much more. 

The pic shows on the right hand side; my pet load of RL16 with a 130gr TMK at 2927fps shot as a fouling shot right before the left hand case of 2209 loads which gave me 2659fps, 2653fps and 2657fps with 139gr Lapua scenars.

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## 10-Ring

Pleased you found the culprit Wingman. I've found AR2009 to be the most accurate powder in my rifle. Might try RE16 with the 123 SST for fallow as the 143 ELD-X is a little too heavily constructed for the little buggers.

I have a friend who likes to buy powder in bulk once he's found a load he likes. He has many kilo's of mostly Vihtavuori powder that is at least 20-30 years old. We tried some recently; no odd smell or colour - all useless.

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## Flyblown

Thought that might be the case. ADI has been known for iffy batches in the past. There’s a good example of batch variance written up on one of the Aussie forums, I’ll see if I can find it. But in a round about way you’ve probably ended up better off anyway as RL-16 seems to be a very well matched powder. 

I’d be inclined to get onto ADI and give them some straight forward feedback. You never know which one of the techs you’ll get, if they are the kind that gives a shit it might just result in something positive.

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## Puffin

Try the original AR2209 again and you'll conclude it was the issue I referred to earlier.

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## Wingman

> Try the original AR2209 again and you'll conclude it was the issue I referred to earlier.


I have.. the old batch gets similar velocity but high pressure signs on brass and sticky bolt lifts.

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## Wingman

@Puffin Yes I went back to find what you said in your post and I think that may have contributed for sure. However this brass is on its 6th load (anneald on the 5th) and I would have thought to see ejector prints disappear by now if it was just the  new case dimensions. I have only ever neck sized this brass and bumped the shoulder a couple of thou, head spacing on loaded rounds feels fine, no weight to close bolt or wiping on them when extracted unfired. 
There is nothing else obvious that I can see and with the new batch of powder the pressure signs have gone which leads me to believe that was the sole cause.
Regardless of resolving that  issue I dont think I will stray from RL16 now as 2209 may match it in accuracy with a little more load developement but will never match its speed.

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## ChrisF

Thats interesting , RE the maybe out of spec powder batch of 2209 , and Old Vit powder , I am still using a lot of OLD ADI 2208 powder from rusty cans that are around 18-20 yrs old , still GOOD .

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## 10-Ring

> Thats interesting , RE the maybe out of spec powder batch of 2209 , and Old Vit powder , I am still using a lot of OLD ADI 2208 powder from rusty cans that are around 18-20 yrs old , still GOOD .


Probably depends on the way the powder is stored.

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## rewa

Storage has to be really cool and dry, plus dont have your can in a warm room when youre reloading, or sitting around opened during the process. But even properly-stored, it will change over time and can only be compared to itself, ie it is whatever it is. I still use 20yr-old cans of IMR, still work, but I will get fresh, when the opportunity arises, and I bet I'll be happy with a modern improved powder

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## Tuidog

This thread has been awesome thankyou.

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## Wingman

Big thanks to Gibo for the 130gr Berger VLD hunting bullet samples! 
Loaded a few up today for testing. From what Ive been told and what I have read this Berger bullet design likes to be seated very close to the lands or even touch for them to group at their potential.  
In my rifle this came with a couple of hiccups.. firstly the seating depth of 5 thou off my lands only put about 75 thou (2mm) in the neck which meant not a lot of neck tension and it made it very hard to seat them concentrically. Alongside my other chosen bullets it has a much shorter bearing surface from top of the boat tail to the ogive which also means less generated pressure and more powder room in the case.




Left to right: 130gr Berger VLD, 136gr Lapua Scenar L, 130gr Sierra TMK, 123gr Lapua Scenar




It also put them at the absolute maximum mag length which had the tips getting caught under the feed ramp. 
It would require a small grind if I wanted to feed them from the mag. 








So once happy with that I put my same 44gr of RL16 behind them as I use with the 130gr TMK and the CCI BM-4 primers and put it over the chrono. 
As expected with less bearing surface and more space under the projectile the pressure and velocity was slightly lower than my TMK loads. 





I bump the load up to 44.4gr hoping to get closer to the 2910 -2920fps which the 136gr Lapua and the Sierra TMKs seem to respond best to in my rifle and took 5 rounds to the 100y range. 
There was a light wind but it was consistent not gusting but as usual I put 5 rounds of my control 130gr TMK loads on paper to check conditions and warm the barrel (and because I never get sick of seeing them do this) Note: the barrel had a few fouling shots over the chrono. 

 :Thumbsup: 



The velocities for this groups were 2898, 2904, 2892, 2890, 2893  and there were faint shiny ejector marks so Id call it a max load.



Not the best group by any means but I can't help but feel I was responsible in limiting its performance with my throat mod.  What works for some bullets clearly doesnt work for others.
Sure I could probably work up a load that may shoot them better, different powders etc or even go against Berger trends and seat them deeper but Im not sure Ill get the same consistent results as the TMK and Lapua bullet offerings which even before fine tuning a load recipee still punched sub moa groups at 100y. 
I have 3 VLDs left so maybe Ill load them tomorrow and seat them with a 50 thou just and 44gr to see how they respond.

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## Gibo

My 130 berger load is way off the lands. Short magbox on my mod 7 is a prick in that way. Shoots good though so dont be scared to jump the feckers

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## Kiwi Greg

> There was a light wind but it was consistent not gusting but as usual I put 5 rounds of my control 130gr TMK loads on paper to check conditions and warm the barrel (and because I never get sick of seeing them do this) Note: the barrel had a few fouling shots over the chrono. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The velocities for this groups were 2898, 2904, 2892, 2890, 2893  and there were faint shiny ejector marks so Id call it a max load.


What am I missing here ?

If the 130 TMK shoots that well why are you still testing ?

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## Wingman

> What am I missing here ?
> 
> If the 130 TMK shoots that well why are you still testing ?


You do seem to miss a lot.. don't lose any sleep over it.  :Indifferent: 
Diversity makes life interesting and variety is the spice of life that gives it all its flavor. 

ummmmmmm that and I enjoy reloading and shooting :Wink:

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## Smiddy

Since when do bergers shoot best closest to the lands? I thought you were supposed to check them at 20 thou intervals right back to 120 thou jump or so?
In all honesty I thought they were a projectile knows to not mind abit of jump 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Wingman

I dont have a lot of trigger time with Bergers, I ran them in my .338 Whisper as 300gr subs but that about the extent of my experience with this brand. The info I got was general online consensus and from a friend who shoots them (well).
Lets hope you thought right.. Ill give them another crack tomorrow with a bit of jump.

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## 10-Ring

QUOTE=Smiddy;743466]....In all honesty I thought they were a projectile knows to not mind abit of jump [/QUOTE]

On the their website they give a lot of information about their various bullet designs. This is some of their info on the VLD. VLD: Making it Shoot | Berger Bullets

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## Wingman

I loaded the last three and seated them back another 50 thou so 60 thou jump to lands which cycle through the mag perfectly. 
Take it for what it is (3 round group) but they didnt shoot any worse and if I had to put money on a guess of what two more rounds would have done Id say they were better loaded this way. 



The first shot was the far left and the following two walked to center. I didnt put a cold bore shot through but also haven't cleaned it since yesterday's groups so that may account for the 1st shot running wide. 
Im sure I could work a load for these should I ever want to use them but after reading about inconsistent hunting results with either explosive results or penciling right through with no terminal damage at the same range and on the same game Im not sure if Id trust them. Even reading that Berger link above doesnt install a lot of confidence in me... they basically had reservations about marketing them as a hunting bullet from the start. While the jacket is a little thicker than some target bullets there is no thicker base or tip to control expansion more consistently. 
The tiny hollow point suggests to me this is the reason for pass throughs with little damage, unless it contacts bone at longer range shots Id be surprised if it opens up much at all. 

Love to hear reports from guys running these bullets on game. What are your experiences with them?

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## ChrisF

My powder is just stored in a damp shed , so that did not HELP it , still OK

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## LBD

Thank you so much for the great write up.... I really appreciated it... it will get read again.... and again.

I have a 6.5 Creedmoor with a 26" barrel and are just getting into reloading ..  accuracy out to about 600m is my goal... limited by my eye sight more than anything else.

I had been looking where to start with powders and projectiles... I wish to try the 147 gn ELDs and after reading your comment..... _"if your barrel is longer and you want to shoot the 140 + gr pills I'd go to RL26. You will get scorching velocities and much lower pressures."_  I think I know which powder I will use first up.

Cheers

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## Wingman

Round two of my 6.5 Creedmoor journey.
I re-chambered a 20" long  1-8" twist light profile Trueflite Ultra Match barrel in creed for my Desert Tech SRS A1 rifle the was previously chambered in .260Rem by the late great Robbie Tiffen that will be my light weight walk about rig. 
I have another heavy fluted 26" Lothar Walther barrel in .260Rem for the Desert tech that I never shoot so really dont see me using two.


I have mostly been using the 6.5x47 Lapua barrel for hunting but it is a heavy 24" long axle of a barrel with another 1.3kg of DMRII tactical scope and mount which really excels in its long range prone role. 
I really went back in forward over whether to just chamber this barrel in 6.5x47 Lapua too and use the same loads but I still had a lot of Creedmoor Lapua brass and dies etc so figured I may as well make another Creedmoor instead. 



I ordered a Dave Kiff premium CIP chamber reamer which eventually arrived and did the job nicely. The std CIP freebore on this reamer is quite a lot shorter than the custom one I finished up with in the Remington barrel but I will see how it goes before any further throat mods.





RL16 was my powder of choice for this cal with the shorter barrel and that has not changed, I will continue to use it in this barrel but backed off a full grain to check pressure limitations of this barrel before carrying on where I left off. Pressure signs and chrono numbers were all in the same ball park as my last barrel so I had a good  load worked out before I even put them to paper. 

Being this will be my shorter range walkabout rig I decided not to test any lighter 123gr bullets and will run 130 to 147gr bullets instead. 
I have quite a few match bullet offerings in that weight range but also will sway toward a more hunting purposed bullet if they shoot ok. 




The line up I have chosen to test first is as follows:

130gr Hornady ELDM 
130gr Sierra Tipped Match King  (my go to in the Remington and also my new 6.5x47)
143gr Hornady ELDX 
130gr Berger VLD Hunter 
136gr Lapua Scenar L (more of a control bullet as this barrel shot them the best when it was a .260Rem at 1/4 MOA)

All loads tested here are Lapua small primer brass with CCI BR-4 primers, RL16 powder and bullets seated 5 to 10 thou off the lands. 

I shot a few of each over the chrono to find the pressure range for each bullet that I wanted to operate within which were all fairly predictable and no eventful apart from the 130gr VLDH and the 130gr ELDM  which were quite low in velocity due to the shorter bearing surfaces and higher case volume resulting from the bullets seated long to lands. 

This pic shows the 130gr bullets with the variation in bearing surfaces:



This is the 130gr VLDH next to the 143gr ELDX





The selected loads for each were selected with the intention of preserving brass life so nothing to hot. I get very mild primer cratering but not stiff bolt lift or any brass swiping/ejector rings. 





The chrono results of these first loads were as follows: (average of 3 shots)

136gr Lapua Scenar L COAL of 72mm with 42.5gr of RL16 (the exact same load I loaded for the .260Rem that gave 2700fps) gave 2878fps.
130gr Sierra TMK  COAL of 73mm with 43.5 of RL16 gave 2891fps (I ran 44gr at 2910fps with the longer free bore Remington) 
143gr Hornady ELDX COAL of 73mm with 42.0 of RL16 gave 2891fps
130gr Berger VLD hunter COAL of 73.5 with 43.0 of RL16 gave 2743fps which was very slow so I went with 44gr which gave 2772fps.
130gr Hornady ELDX COAL of 73mm with 43.0 of RL16 gave 2701fps which was also very slow so I bumped it up to 44gr which gave 2756fps.

The 130gr TMK seems to cope with a higher charge getting higher velocities than the other 130gr bullets which were starting to show the faintest of ejector kisses with the 44gr load so I have called that my max load.


To the 100 meter range...

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## Got Juice?

I did not subtract my bullet diameter....
H4350 39.4gn
Lapua SRP Brass
CCI SMPP
Hornady 140 ELDM
Tikka T3 CTR
KRG Bravo Chassis
Schmidt and Bender PMII H59
Cadex Brake
.246@100m



120gn



Rifle

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## Got Juice?

a Couple vides in slo mo to show brake efficacy.

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## Got Juice?

So.. as far as the Hornady bullets.  120's are good, as are the 130's up to 143.... but the 147's will not stabilize no matter what load I try.

My STAG10 DMR Build will have an IBI Barrel, and hopefully the twist rate change will stabilize the 147's.

Pics to follow when I get it sussed out.

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## 25 /08 IMP

> Round two of my 6.5 Creedmoor journey.
> I re-chambered a 20" long  1-8" twist light profile Trueflite Ultra Match barrel in creed for my Desert Tech SRS A1 rifle the was previously chambered in .260Rem by the late great Robbie Tiffen that will be my light weight walk about rig. 
> I have another heavy fluted 26" Lothar Walther barrel in .260Rem for the Desert tech that I never shoot so really dont see me using two.
> 
> 
> I have mostly been using the 6.5x47 Lapua barrel for hunting but it is a heavy 24" long axle of a barrel with another 1.3kg of DMRII tactical scope and mount which really excels in its long range prone role. 
> I really went back in forward over whether to just chamber this barrel in 6.5x47 Lapua too and use the same loads but I still had a lot of Creedmoor Lapua brass and dies etc so figured I may as well make another Creedmoor instead. 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome speeds there 

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

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## Wingman

So 5 rounds of each loaded I did the 100 meter paper work..

https://youtu.be/kBBK9-2n4UQ




No clear over achievers amongst them except maybe the 143gr ELDX which may need further group testing and I messed one shot up. The TMKs also excel for their velocity and proven hunting suitability but Id say all of these bullets could be fine tuned to shoot tiny bug holes.

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## 10-Ring

I must get to the range and shoot my 6.5 CM more seeing as it's only two minutes from my place. Last time I was getting 2,910fps average with 44.3gr of R16 with the Sierra 130gr Camechanger. Long throat and mag length so bullets are seated well out in my 24" barrel Tikka TSx Lite; good accuracy. For deer hunting though I'll stick with the 143 ELD-X with AR2209 (exact same powder as H4350).

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## Wingman

Thanks for the PM Marc, I made a typo in my write up, looking back in my range book the velocity for the 143gr is 2801 av not 2891fps

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## Steelisreal

That's still great performance and efficiency at 2801 fps! I only wish my rifle spat those ELD-X out that fast. It does group them beautifully though so I'm not complaining  :Have A Nice Day: 

Thanks for the in-depth write-up @Wingman. This thread is a great resource.

Maybe a little experiment is in order to find out what my rifle will digest. I didn't see any pressure signs with any of the Re16 loads that I tried.

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## Steelisreal

> I must get to the range and shoot my 6.5 CM more seeing as it's only two minutes from my place. Last time I was getting 2,910fps average with 44.3gr of R16 with the Sierra 130gr Camechanger. Long throat and mag length so bullets are seated well out in my 24" barrel Tikka TSx Lite; good accuracy. For deer hunting though I'll stick with the 143 ELD-X with AR2209 (exact same powder as H4350).


 @10-Ring - have you tried Re16 with the 143 ELD-X at all? I've tried it and got great accuracy but not quite the speed that Wingman is achieving (with the same load). What sort of results have you got with the 2209 and the 143? I got 2700 out of mine (20") but it felt 'warm'. So far the Re16 feels like a better fit for the heavier bullets. 

The 2209 seems to work very nicely with the 123 ELD-M in mine. Decent speed and great accuracy. And the classic 41.5 behind the 140 ELD-M isn't fast but shoots so well it is boring.

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## 10-Ring

> @10-Ring - have you tried Re16 with the 143 ELD-X at all? I've tried it and got great accuracy but not quite the speed that Wingman is achieving (with the same load). What sort of results have you got with the 2209 and the 143? I got 2700 out of mine (20") but it felt 'warm'. So far the Re16 feels like a better fit for the heavier bullets. 
> 
> The 2209 seems to work very nicely with the 123 ELD-M in mine. Decent speed and great accuracy. And the classic 41.5 behind the 140 ELD-M isn't fast but shoots so well it is boring.


I haven't tried Re16 with the 143 ELD-X. I get 2,760 fps with the AR2209; very accurate load. Could get more speed than that but not worth it in terms of reduced case and barrel life. Have tried Re26 with the 143 ELD-X and can easily get 2,800 fps without pressure signs, however it's not as accurate in my rifle as the AR2209. With the small primer pocket brass such as the Lapua by the time you see pressure signs you're way over pressure.

Incidentally, I've found the small primer Peterson brass to be even better quality than the Lapua.

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## Wingman

Another quick loading and range session today with two new projectiles. I picked up a box of Hornady 147gr ELD Match bullets and decided to give the 139gr Lapua Scenars a go too as I have quite a lot of them. 
I also decided to give the Hornady 143gr ELDX another go as I pulled one in the last trial ruining a sub 1/2 moa group.





I loaded a few of the 147gr ELDMs and 139gr lapuas with various charges of RL16 to find a max load then backed then off until the pressure only showed itself with a light primer crater like all the others tested.

The chosen loads for the paper tests were:

139gr Lapua Scenar 42.5gr of RL16, COAL of 72.8mm
These shot an average of 2884fps and brass looks good.



The 147gr ELD Match got 41gr of RL16 with a COAL of 74mm and gave 2731fps AV.
I tested right up to 42gr at 2785fps which just started to show a faint ejector print(just a shiny spot not raised brass) but it sounded louder and had heavier recoil. As soon as I shot the 41gr over the chrono it was noticably  
quieter and obviously getting a more complete burn within the barrel. The sound changes quite dramatically when you reach that point. I decide 41gr is a good start to test on paper. 

So armed with 5 of each I made my way to the 100m range and preceded with the paper work.
I started with the 139gr Lapuas which shot about the same 1/2moa as all the others tested as did the second test of 143gr ELDXs which was a little worse than my last test with them (excluding my pulled flyer) but still very good. 
The 147gr ELD Match really set themselves apart though! 
While not as fast as some of the 130s they made up for it in this tiny one holer and a ridiculous high BC figure of  .697!







While the 100 meter group was perfect it will be interesting to test it for retained stability at 500-600 meters as it slows up. Can anyone else comment on the stability of this long ass bullet in a 1-8" twist Creedmoor or Creedmoor velocities? 

I think the 143gr ELDX has more potential if I do some more group tests dropping the charge off 0.2gr at a time and I know from real world tests its still stable out past 1000 meters.

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## ebf

@Wingman, can you remember where you got that target ? it is a good layout.

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## SlimySquirrel

That’s good shooting with all of those.
The 147 are doing good speed man. That’s a nice load.

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## Wingman

> @Wingman, can you remember where you got that target ? it is a good layout.


Cant remember sorry, it was a download from the net about 10 years ago but has been a fav of mine.
P/M me your email addy and Ill sent you the A4 jpeg

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## johnd

Shot the 139 scenar and the* 140* ELDM out to 600 yd with repeatable 1/2 MOA with 41.5 of 2209 They seem to stabilise well, cant help on the 147.

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## Gibo

@gimp was running the 147s in his 260. He may have some experiences to add?

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## Wingman

Any experience would be greatly recieved. I may give them a try in my .260Rem barrel which is a 26" long 1-8.5" twist.
I suppose I could load them down to match the velocity they would give at 300 meters and test them at 300 meters.. (that's as far as I can get at my place) that should give an accurate indication of what the stability is like at 600 meters loaded to 2730fps

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## Mathias

I've had exactly the same grouping experience at 100m with 143ELD-X & 147 ELD-M with my 260Imp with 1:8 barrel as your grouping above. I haven't had a chance to stretch their (ELD-M) legs yet over distance for stability, so keen to see your results when done.

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## 10-Ring

Nice group with the 147 ELD-M Wingman. Haven't tried those yet but will. 

I use the 139 Scenar's in a reduced load of AR2209 for NZDA Hunter Class shoots. Always accurate and mild to shoot.

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## ishoot10s

I would have had all this to go through myself but, fortunately, Ive just bought a 6.5 x 47 Lapua that someone else has done all the load dev for, proven it in competition, and given me the details. Hopefully I will be able to duplicate the pet load, but even if I only come close, itll be fantastic.

Great skill and patience shown here by @Wingman to work through this process himself.😎

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## Beavis

Had good experiance with the 147's in a Bergara. Only a mild load doing 2520fps from the 22" tube. Tight groups and went where I told my scope to put them.

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## SlimySquirrel

Going the cheats route and getting someone to load develop for me with the 143 eldx in my Tikka.

Would do it myself but I’m living in Aus now so barely get any time to shoot let alone reload but a mate will have my rig and is learning how to reload for his 7-08 so he can replicate the winning recipe for me.
The rifle is heading to the smith to get bottom metal fitted anyway so thought getting a load developed would be a good idea at the same time.
Taking the advice of getting a decent chrony and will invest in a Magnetospeed for good measure.

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