# Hunting > Varminting and Small Game Hunting >  Tell 'em they're dreaming . . . Govt announces new policy, predator free by 2050

## Kscott

> The Government's announced an ambitious target to make New Zealand predator-free by 2050.
> Prime Minister John Key made the announcement at Wellington's ecosantuary Zealandia on Monday afternoon.
> He says the introduces pets such as stoats, rats and possums cost the economy and primary sector around $3.3 billion a year.
> "Rats, possums and stoats kill 25 million of our native birds every year, and prey on other native species such as lizards, and along with the rest of our environment, we must do more to protect them," Mr Key says.
> The Government will invest $28 million in a joint-venture company called Predator Free New Zealand in a public-private partnership.
> The money is on top of the $60 to $80 million already put into pest control by the Government each year, as well as local government and the private sector.
> 
> 
> Read more: Govt wants NZ pest free by 2050 | Politics | Newshub


I wonder how many countries in the world are rat free ?

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## gimp

Despite the title, their goals don't seem to actually reflect that at the moment




> 2020 goals
> • Develop a collaborative predator control strategy.
> • Another 175,000 hectares in addition to the current
> 1 million hectares on conservation land and 7 million
> hectares led by OSPRI are under some form of control.
> • Five projects supported by PFNZ are making progress,
> and sharing lessons.
> • PFNZ and DOC will tackle larger scale operations.
> • Collaborative results will show social and economic benefits.
> ...

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## grunzter

Carpet bombing with 1080...

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## WallyR

While 'uneducated' city dwellers continue to release part-grown cats into the bush (can't be bothered re-homing the cat, and other self serving excuses), cat predation of smaller birds and native wildlife will continue.
Rats are one of the most adaptable of all introduced predatory species, so look for heavy 'bombing' of 1080 poison in most of the favored hunting areas.
Stoats and ferrets are smart animals - difficult to find, hard to reduce numbers unless they partake of fresh poisoned carcasses.
Hedgehogs - a new one to me. Didn't know they ate meat of any kind.
Introduced bird species (larger breeds), contribute as much to the decline of native species as any of the above.
No study has been carried out - to my knowledge - on secondary, tertiary and quadrenary poison kills using 1080.
DOC and PCNZ need to clearly indicate through valid studies, that these latter stages of poisoning DO NOT CONTRIBTE to a reduction in the omnivorous native species - Weka, Kea, etc.
My 2c worth.

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## 223nut

Removing the animals is only half the battle, how do ylpoy stop a reinvention? Quarantine all ships coming into the country? Ban all imports? Never going to happen

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## Mooseman

The PM's comment that every part of NZ will be targeted is  a pretty big task, imagine how much this is going to cost. To be most effective it would need to be a rolling operation with no let up as reinvasion would be occurring straight away. I think any one who thinks eradication is possible especially with the species mentioned is dreaming.
When I was still employed as a Pest Officer in the BOP, DOC, EBOP and Environment Waikato agree to eradicate wallabies in our regions, I left 6 years ago and still the surveys continue to see how far they have spread, but no closer to eradication. It is a nice thought to do these things and rid the country of these pests but unless they develop better ways to do control work it won't happen.
We as hunters know the challenges of our back country and how difficult it will be to carry out the work, and if the powers to be think spraying 1080 is the answer they are wrong, look at how long 1080 has been used and still the pests are there.
Going back to the wallaby eradication plan we figured that after an area had it's initial control operation most likely 1080, contractors on foot would have to hunt the control area three times with trained wallaby indicator dogs before the area would be considered wallaby free.
That would mean every square meter would need checking not once but three times..... now apply that to this current plan and apply that to the whole country  for not one species but three ... who's going to pay.
Don't need to be a genius to work out it is highly unlikely this plan will not  work. Who's to say deer etc won't be targeted next?

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## viper

I am afraid it's well meaning but I think long term it will fall well short of it's objectives. 
I have a friend who is very high up in Veterinary science and on NZ animal and export boards. The work has been done through Gene's to make Possums sterile within a few breeding cycles but it can't be used because of NZ law's on Genetic engineering.
This big Rabbit virus that was supposed to be released that some guys talked about on here hasn't happened because the shit mutated in the Lab were it was been developed in Australia and suddenly it's got unknown risks attached.

I look at the massive and very expensive effort that went into the Fruit Fly control in Auckland years back with planes literally flying over the suburbs dropping insecticide on us, cost millions and millions to get on top of a very small area / outbreak, how the f#@k are they going to control multiple species over the massive areas they are talking about.
All I can see is 1080 thrown around like confetti , some poison companys making huge profits and some contractors also making a lot of money.

Like a lot of these idea's it looks great on paper but in the real world Mr Rat will get the last laugh

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## Maca49

And remember you entrust the running of your country to these dickheads. We really are rooted with decisions like this! I'd like to employ the salesman that sold it to them!

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## viper



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## Rushy

Pure fantasy.  Mission impossible.

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## Gibo

> And remember you entrust the running of your country to these dickheads. We really are rooted with decisions like this! I'd like to employ the salesman that sold it to them!


They are selling it to themselves

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## Wirehunt

> While 'uneducated' city dwellers continue to release part-grown cats into the bush (can't be bothered re-homing the cat, and other self serving excuses), cat predation of smaller birds and native wildlife will continue.
> Rats are one of the most adaptable of all introduced predatory species, so look for heavy 'bombing' of 1080 poison in most of the favored hunting areas.
> Stoats and ferrets are smart animals - difficult to find, hard to reduce numbers unless they partake of fresh poisoned carcasses.
> Hedgehogs - a new one to me. Didn't know they ate meat of any kind.
> Introduced bird species (larger breeds), contribute as much to the decline of native species as any of the above.
> No study has been carried out - to my knowledge - on secondary, tertiary and quadrenary poison kills using 1080.
> DOC and PCNZ need to clearly indicate through valid studies, that these latter stages of poisoning DO NOT CONTRIBTE to a reduction in the omnivorous native species - Weka, Kea, etc.
> My 2c worth.


Ask doc how much research has been done on the effects of poison on plant life.

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## timattalon

Problem is two fold. 

They want to eliminate all "predators" is the quote in the press. Possums included. I know possums are a pest but never thought of them as predators...(Carnivores?)

If they mean pests then they clearly forgot rabbits. 

And second, have they not learned that EVERY time man has tried to "help" nature in this country we have only ever succeeded in making the problem worse. Rabbits are getting away on us. Lets use mustilids (Ferrets, stoats and weasels) to get rid of them....Ooops seems they prefer easier feed like birds...bugger. Goats wil eat all the gorse.....Not once has mankind successfully assisted nature in this country. We, as a nation, have poo'd in our nest by introducing foreign species and let them get away on us. By trying to eliminate them all , the only thing we will succeed in is upsetting the balance and causing an increase in the prey. If we remove all weasels, cats ( good luck on that one) ferrets and stoats, then mouse and rabbit numbers will sky rocket.  

They probably have a better chance of putting razor blades on kiwis and teaching them to fight back.....and that aint gonna happen either....

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## Friwi

Let them eradicate the predators on Stewart island first without killing the kiwis, then we ll see how valid their strategy is for the two main islands.

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## EeeBees

@WallyR, re hedgehogs...they especially like canned cat food according to one person I know...they also eat ground laying birds' eggs...scabby mongrels...

In the "old days" when the rabbits were in plague numbers, my father shot thousands of them, and also poisoned them with phosphorus laced jam...can you imagine that happening today...??  they were that thick that cabbage trees were completely debarked up as high as a rabbit could get its teeth...

Talking to a young lad the other day about the possums when they were big in numbers...my brother and I shot 80 out of one big old kanuka tree...the boy stated he thought that was a mistake...I said, well, you had to be there, I guess... :Sad:

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## 223nut

> Let them eradicate the predators on Stewart island first without killing the kiwis, then we ll see how valid their strategy is for the two main islands.


geeez just make us the guinea pigs! got the same problem with reinvasion, boats coming over from bluff fishing, container ships waiting for a berth in bluff that are close to shore, deep sea trawlers taking shelter and cruise ships. all of the above have rats on them and come withen 500m of shore. not to mention the ongoing costs of running a quarantine within a habitated area, rat detecting dogs at ferry and plane... the list goes on

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## WallyR

> @WallyR, re hedgehogs...they especially like canned cat food according to one person I know...they also eat ground laying birds' eggs...scabby mongrels...
> 
> In the "old days" when the rabbits were in plague numbers, my father shot thousands of them, and also poisoned them with phosphorus laced jam...can you imagine that happening today...??  they were that thick that cabbage trees were completely debarked up as high as a rabbit could get its teeth...
> 
> Talking to a young lad the other day about the possums when they were big in numbers...my brother and I shot 80 out of one big old kanuka tree...the boy stated he thought that was a mistake...I said, well, you had to be there, I guess...


Ta mate - have been 'conversing' with an interested party on another FB post (no credits for the other site), and did say that 'hogs eat eggs, ground nesting bird chicks, lizards etc.. It appears that ol' Hedgy has quite a bit of support in the supposedly 'educated' halls of DOC. Go figure.

 @timattalon
Funny that eh. Although possum are mainly vegan, others have posted elsewhere that they're not above adding the odd egg or two to their diet.

A thought for us all.
When the Moa disappeared, there were no multi-level leaf browsers about, until the introduction of deer and the release of possum to the wild after failed fur industry breeders.
Native trees had adapted to being browsed as part of the tree's development - encouraging rapid growth during the early months/years, to take the leaves above Moa feeding height.
So perhaps not including possum (who leaf browse higher than Moa could reach), is an oversight - or not, as 1080 poison has been 'blanket bombed' to these two target leaf browsers (deer and possum), but conveniently for the manufacturers, gets altered to mice, rats and other ground dwellers (tahr, chamois, goats and deer), who are then targeted for 1080 drops. Not sure if DOC have done definitive studies on secondary and tertiary poisoning of wildlife that ingests insects and parts of poisoned carcasses, such as carrion eaters and omnivores. Most predators prefer their meat fresh, so 1080 is missing rats, stoat, ferret and weasel.
Just a 'bee in my bonnet' I have about poisoning in such an uncontrolled manner - my other 'bee in my bonnet' is about our supposedly 'pristine, wild bush', flooded with 1080 from the air and the expected 'life' of airdropped poison being active for 10-14 days.
Enough to have kill rates on other species for which the drop was not targeted - native birds and small animals for example.
Stopping here before I get really started.  :ORLY:

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## Dougie

So - in this plan they will ban all domestic keeping of rats, mice, stoats, ferrets, cats and rabbits? 

I think we are all aware that the true European feral rabbit only occurs in brown with some white colouring...how many rabbits have you disposed of that are black, white, grey...? Little Miss Snotrag can't look after her pet anymore so it's let to roam free.. 

And wtf, I bet there is no country with zero rats. I bet even the bases in Antartica have them.

What a joke. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## viper

Ok some boarders need to be set here Dougie.........RABBITS ARE NOT PESTS !!!!!!........they are sport: thumbsup:

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## gonetropo

sounds like a job for "the expendables", too big for chuck norris on his own

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## time out

> While 'uneducated' city dwellers continue to release part-grown cats into the bush (can't be bothered re-homing the cat, and other self serving excuses), cat predation of smaller birds and native wildlife will continue.
> Rats are one of the most adaptable of all introduced predatory species, so look for heavy 'bombing' of 1080 poison in most of the favored hunting areas.
> Stoats and ferrets are smart animals - difficult to find, hard to reduce numbers unless they partake of fresh poisoned carcasses.
> Hedgehogs - a new one to me. Didn't know they ate meat of any kind.
> Introduced bird species (larger breeds), contribute as much to the decline of native species as any of the above.
> No study has been carried out - to my knowledge - on secondary, tertiary and quadrenary poison kills using 1080.
> DOC and PCNZ need to clearly indicate through valid studies, that these latter stages of poisoning DO NOT CONTRIBTE to a reduction in the omnivorous native species - Weka, Kea, etc.
> My 2c worth.


Good 2cents worth Wally 
Cats are always a problem for me round holiday time - people seem to drop them off at the roadside picnic area just before the turn off to the beach - cats should be high on the PFNZ hit list - but it is a sensitive subject as most people have a cat sitting on their knee at night 
People also seem to be fascinated by hogs around their back yard - the bastards can eat meat, bones, eggs, chicks, invertebrates -  if you dont like skinning possums - just leave it for the hog to  clean it out for you 
Hedgehog Skull
If you have this shit on your lawn - you have hogs in your garden - trap the bastards 
Hedgehog photo - Erinaceus europaeus - A23201 | ARKive
hog eating a possum 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtQUaFotDnM
not much left of this one

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## gimp

It's very difficult to bother arguing with so many people who are wrong about so many things, so you're all just going to have to take my word for it. 


However a point to note perhaps ought to be that the focus of the previous/existing Predator Free Trust was largely to get communities engaged in predator control, the "army of volunteers" trapping and whatnot, and also research into predator behaviour (see ZIP), so the immediate negative response of JERKS MORE 1080 RAGHR BLOO BLOO BLOO is probably unjustified

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## Dougie

True gimp, but what's wrong with setting reasonable goals? Recently the govt said they would reduce reoffending by 25% by 2017...and that's where it ended. What's the actual plan here? Has their even been sufficient research done to know exactly how many pests we are dealing with and in what areas?


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## stretch

> True gimp, but what's wrong with setting reasonable goals? Recently the govt said they would reduce reoffending by 25% by 2017...and that's where it ended. What's the actual plan here? Has their even been sufficient research done to know exactly how many pests we are dealing with and in what areas?


It's all just headline-grabbing Trumpisms. "We'll build a wall", "We'll kill all the terrorists". Wonderful ideas that voters will love, with no plan on how to go about it, or the unintended consequences. 


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## gimp

> True gimp, but what's wrong with setting reasonable goals? Recently the govt said they would reduce reoffending by 25% by 2017...and that's where it ended. What's the actual plan here? Has their even been sufficient research done to know exactly how many pests we are dealing with and in what areas?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They have stated goals for 2020 and 2025 which seem relatively reasonable 




> 2020 goals
> • Develop a collaborative predator control strategy.
> • Another 175,000 hectares in addition to the current
> 1 million hectares on conservation land and 7 million
> hectares led by OSPRI are under some form of control.
> • Five projects supported by PFNZ are making progress,
> and sharing lessons.
> • PFNZ and DOC will tackle larger scale operations.
> • Collaborative results will show social and economic benefits.
> ...


There is all kinds of monitoring of pest numbers that goes on. The question "how many" is the wrong question, and I wish they'd stop using absolute numbers like "25,000,000" because they're not measurable or accurate, but they're easier for people to take in than concepts like "relative abundance", because, as demonstrated by this forum's response to this, reading comprehension isn't a common skill 

A little consideration and an open mind instead of a knee-jerk-burst-into-tears reaction at the idea of someone investing a relatively small amount of money in terms of government spending into trying to preserve our natural heritage might be a good idea

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## 223nut

Playing the devils advocate... If they do succeed with a genetic change and it's allowed to go ahead, why not! They stated that technologies are still being developed and my crystal ball doesn't work!

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## 7mmsaum

Lets keep this discussion tidy

Im all for our own Circulus in probando  (Ie: circular logic) around our thoughts on pest control and its a reasonable approach at times except in addition with politics


We have a no politics rule here.

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## viper

No shit they are a pest Mauser 308, I am living in Central, more rabbits than sheep and people combined.......my comment to Dougie was tongue in cheek

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## WallyR

@time out
Thanks mate - awesome links. Ol' hedgehog's on my 'hit list'.  :Thumbsup:  @7mmsaum
When the original post went up, it talked about 'Gov't plans' - politics already on the table.  :Grin:  @viper
Can I come down for a 'holiday', and help reduce your stress levels about the 'population imbalance'?  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:  @mauser 308
Can you post a vid of your 'outstanding driving skills'?  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
Cheers all - as the posters on this subject hunt, fish and shoot (my bones are over the climbing, falling and chills), I guess we have issues with the 'how', 'when' and 'what' of the Control Council.
Another thought - the GAC have been formed, are 'studying' the options for game herd management but one of the Council members (DOC), continues to use their current, outdated methodologies (ever hear of 'The Law of Diminishing Returns on Investment') with willing assistance of WARO operators, who conveniently ignore territory boundaries, when the above 'law' kicks in. If Predator Control are expecting wholesale support of their objectives, some of the fiercest opponents for cat regulation will be breeders and cat owners/lovers, to have cats taken off the list. I truly hope that, with the help of members of this, and other forums here, that some at least of the goals will be approached, and the knowledge/experience/practical advice freely given here, is utilized by the new Council.  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## viper

Wow interesting news Mauser, I moved to Cromwell from KatiKati about 4 months ago ( my wife thinks we moved here for the work,......I came for the rabbits :Have A Nice Day: . Numbers in Kati were really low but sounds like things are on the move with Rabbit numbers up there. I was kinda dreading my first central winter but so far it's been very mild. I spoke to a guy who was shooting rabbits for meat and he was saying that some of the Does are pregnant which is he thought very unusual and wonders if numbers aren't going to explode down here come spring......bring it on ( not good for the farmers )

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## Dougie

Roger that, thanks for the info @gimp 


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## EeeBees

> It's all just headline-grabbing Trumpisms. "We'll build a wall", "We'll kill all the terrorists". Wonderful ideas that voters will love, with no plan on how to go about it, or the unintended consequences. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


The way I see it, @stretch, is what we, you know, me, them, you, us and a dog named Boo will do...get out there and do it ourselves...as many of us have been doing for many years...all the pontificating and bombastic wankerism does not protect anything...except someone's backside...

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## EeeBees

> Not really my bad driving skills to be fair, I was driving on top of a little rise and the little rabbit hole 1m down the side actually wasn't a little hole.  There was a major highway intersection with about 6 interlinking burrow access tunnels running off from it, when I had a closer look I could damn near see straight through the hill...
> 
> The front wheel of the ute just pushed the lid to the cavern in which gave me a hell of a fright as it bounced back up the other side.  I swear it was nothing but flat grass in front of me...


ah, you encountered an infamous warren...works of art :Grin:  :Omg:

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## EeeBees

Just watching the latest episode from Fieldsports Britain where David states the eradication of predators in New Zealand...he quotes the figure of 25,000,000 native birds are killed by predators a year in this country...

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## timattalon

_The Government's announced an ambitious target to make New Zealand predator-free by 2050.
Prime Minister John Key made the announcement at Wellington's ecosantuary Zealandia on Monday afternoon.
He says the introduces pets such as stoats, rats and possums cost the economy and primary sector around $3.3 billion a year.
"Rats, possums and stoats kill 25 million of our native birds every year, and prey on other native species such as lizards, and along with the rest of our environment, we must do more to protect them," Mr Key says.
The Government will invest $28 million in a joint-venture company called Predator Free New Zealand in a public-private partnership.
The money is on top of the $60 to $80 million already put into pest control by the Government each year, as well as local government and the private sector._  (Quoted form the OP)

All well and fine to sayt lets get rid of all the predators. Here is 80million and we will top it off with another $28 million.....

How about we use that money to take real predators......Theives, scum, rapists, murderers and criminal enterprise...Yes our biodiversity is stuffed, And only a limit to how much we can repair the damage before we make it worse. But how about fixing things that actually need fixing......Under resourced Police officers, and more of them.....Medical budgets, I can think of so much more that can be done and the money has to come from someones budget...Where did they take it from? That is what is really scary. The bureaucrats in charge have not idea what is happening so they let a well intentioned tree hugger make the call, and we all know which road is paved with good intentions.... 

NB I would like to see it paved with the souls of good intentioned tree huggers and scum....

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## Ernie

> They have stated goals for 2020 and 2025 which seem relatively reasonable 
> 
> 
> 
> There is all kinds of monitoring of pest numbers that goes on. The question "how many" is the wrong question, and I wish they'd stop using absolute numbers like "25,000,000" because they're not measurable or accurate, but they're easier for people to take in than concepts like "relative abundance", because, as demonstrated by this forum's response to this, reading comprehension isn't a common skill 
> 
> A little consideration and an open mind instead of a knee-jerk-burst-into-tears reaction at the idea of someone investing a relatively small amount of money in terms of government spending into trying to preserve our natural heritage might be a good idea


This isnt the GIMP I knew, what have you done with the cynical young aspiring soldier/boxer. Ahhaaa. .. DOC has got you under their spell, given you a side interest (Ladeeeees) and lured you in to using management speak, using long words and wasteful spending as all Govt Depts do, mine included  :Wink:  plus saving NZ's natural heritage will do us all out of a lot of hunting opportunities, leaving us all to look for what little birdlife remains after by-kill decimates an '"acceptable percentage"

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## gimp

> This isnt the GIMP I knew, what have you done with the cynical young aspiring soldier/boxer. Ahhaaa. .. DOC has got you under their spell, given you a side interest (Ladeeeees) and lured you in to using management speak, using long words and wasteful spending as all Govt Depts do, mine included  plus saving NZ's natural heritage will do us all out of a lot of hunting opportunities, leaving us all to look for what little birdlife remains after by-kill decimates an '"acceptable percentage"


Not at all, I just actually have an open mind and don't approach things with a pre-conceived view. I'm gonna have to talk to you about this, you've been listening to the wrong people man


Besides which _the focus of the trust that this new initiative is based on has largely been community based trapping programs and whatnot, not 1080_. 

Also you'd think the anti-1080 people would be keen on actually eradicating possums/rats/stoats or finding other methods to suppress them so we don't have to use it any more, which is one of the stated aims of this new programme

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## chindit

I know little about 1080, so went to google to find out more. There is very little info on the stuff that's backed up with science. Same info repeated over and over. I avoided the ban it /best thing sine sliced bread sites. NZ use 80% of the stuff so not many studies have been done elsewhere. In one paper it states possible links with cancer but no specific testing has been done. It can last for months in a carcass in cold conditions. I hope a lot of this money is going to find a alternative, as I can see agent orange type thing here in future.

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## gimp

> There is very little info on the stuff that's backed up with science.


What do you want to know?



> It can last for months in a carcass in cold conditions.


Yes, and DOC (and presumably other agencies, I don't know what OSPRI etc do) conduct bait and carcass monitoring after drops to monitor decay/breakdown of baits and carcasses in worst-case climatic areas inside treatment areas, to determine the end of caution periods.

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## WallyR

@gimp
By it's own admission, DOC have stated that 1080 has a toxicity life if '10-14' days under normal temperature conditions. Interesting to see that they are admitting to toxicity lasting longer under cooler temperature conditions. So - IMO - if toxicity lasts longer than 10-14 days, does this not increase the opportunity for carrion eaters, insects (flies, maggots, etc.) and omnivorous birds/animals to ingest dangerous levels (read fatal), amounts of 1080? Since kiwi and other native/introduced birds/animals eat various forms of 'possibly' infected insects/carcasses of 1080 kill, wouldn't this 'partially explain' the increase in the endangered species list of NZ native species? I'm quite happy for introduced species to be reduced by this method, but I also feel that those potentially 'money making' species, such as red, sika, sambar, tahr, wapiti, chamois - among others - are being taken 'out of control' from control of groups like the Fiordland Wapiti Management group, GAC and similar supposedly NGO groups, whose function is to manage the various deer/alpine species.
It seems that Gov't itself has so many inputs from various groups, including entrenched philosophy DOC.
It's time for a review of how predators, native, introduced and 'cultivated' farming can be EFFECTIVELY managed, to satisfy the various aims of the - sometimes - conflicting aims of the various groups.
I'm of the opinion that Gov't should be 'managing' the process, procedures and potential conflicts, to give the 'optional' balance of aims.
If the Predator Control Group - assuming that hunter, self-educated predator practitioners and rewarding (bounty anyone?) demonstrations of predator control - are rewarded, then they'll have taken a giant step forward to achieving their aims.

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## time out

> I wonder how many countries in the world are rat free ?


Parts of some - Alberta has been fighting rats since 1950 - they set up a rat free zone 29km wide and 600km long along their border with Saskatchewan and despite some small incursions - it remains intact today 
Climate and population in the area is a bit different to NZ - Norway rats are unique because they must live with people or within their buildings. They cannot survive in natural areas and cannot overwinter in cultivated fields in Canada.
Amazing that it could be done and even more amazing that it can be maintained - they don’t even have 1080  :36 1 5: 

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex3441

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## 223nut

Another problem that arose with the island... All rats could be gone off public land, if you still have rats on your 300 acre bush block do you have to pay to remove them??

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## Kscott

> Parts of some - Alberta has been fighting rats since 1950 - they set up a rat free zone 29km wide and 600km long along their border with Saskatchewan and despite some small incursions - it remains intact today


That's my point, an area 29km wide by 600km isn't that big when compared to an entire country, with open coastline and numerous entry ports. NZ coastline runs for over 15,000km.

The Govt has taken the concept of some ideals working well in a small, isolated environment like an island, and are planning on spending more public money on an ideology that can't work.

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## Wirehunt

gimp gimp gimp, sigh.

I was talking with one of the doc field bosses the other day and rats came up.   Can you, without googling it tell me, cause this rooster couldn't.  What is the gestation period for a rat and how long before they are impregnated after dropping.   I maintain if you are trying to kill something you should at an absolute minimum know that.
Rabbits are 28 days and pregnant within 12 hours of dropping.
Does doc have a proper pest management plan in place?  No.  Maybe in some small areas, but even then I have my doubts after working beside them.  Would a proper plan make any difference?  Fuck YES.  Is the bullshit in doc so thick that they don't think straight?  You answer...

I was at a meeting the other day and the OSPRI boss rooster for the southern area was there, busy telling me how I was totally wrong on the cost to doc of 1080 operations.  The dickhead didn't realize that is a simple OIA, by the way that was $59.50 per hectare for the 2013/14 season
https://wrant.wordpress.com/2015/10/...ealand-part-2/

However gimp I also know of some damning evidence that hopefully in the very near future can be made public.  Oh, and a lot of it is docs own research.

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## Wirehunt

> Wow interesting news Mauser, I moved to Cromwell from KatiKati about 4 months ago ( my wife thinks we moved here for the work,......I came for the rabbits. Numbers in Kati were really low but sounds like things are on the move with Rabbit numbers up there. I was kinda dreading my first central winter but so far it's been very mild. I spoke to a guy who was shooting rabbits for meat and he was saying that some of the Does are pregnant which is he thought very unusual and wonders if numbers aren't going to explode down here come spring......bring it on ( not good for the farmers )


No, they are about bang on time,  start seeing young ones running around in August.   That is in fact an age thing, namely the old bastard doesn't realise he's getting old and time is slipping away on him.   :Grin:

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## EeeBees

Rats...googled this...

Brown rats live in large, hierarchical groups, either in burrows or subsurface places, such as sewers and cellars. When food is in short supply, the rats lower in social order are the first to die. If a large fraction of a rat population is exterminated, the remaining rats will increase their reproductive rate, and quickly restore the old population level

soooooooo.... :Sad:

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## Wirehunt

doc researched it with landcare research using 1080 EBs, seems they go well above pre-poison levels within 12-18 months.

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## timattalon

Her eis a thought, 

They found a few foreign Fruit flies in Auckland a few years back....How much did they spend to remove these pests from becoming established? They were in a small area, and in numbers that if they were natives would be condsidered extremely endangered. That level of effort across the whole country will destroy us.

I am not saying they did the wrong thing there, quite the opposite, it was something we definitely do not want here and they were right to pursue that course of action. But do they realise, that was like a teenager saying "I changed a light bulb in my car, that means I am ready to do a full strip down and restoration on it. Should be ready by the weekend...."

I like the idea they want to try, I like the idea that they want to do more to eradicate and control pests, but they are attempting something they cannot ever even hope to succeed at.

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## EeeBees

> doc researched it with landcare research using 1080 EBs, seems they go well above pre-poison levels within 12-18 months.


ye gods... :Omg:

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## veitnamcam

> doc researched it with landcare research using 1080 EBs, seems they go well above pre-poison levels within 12-18 months.


Which is perfect really as you have to re apply 1-2 years later due to a rat explosion due to a "beach seeding mast"  :ORLY:

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## gsp follower

listen the whole things easily solvable just get murray[bribe ,em] mcully involved.
within a week or 3 the preds will be toastin thier arses in a saudi desert *predator*  hub where not one will survive.
and for  4 million quid plus we can also  artificislly  boost air nz,s profit line by bookin the stoats and weasels the sheep seat s
[dammit i mean cheap seats]
the pred weasels and stoats i mean not murray and the big red dumb.
WHATS ARABIC FOR THANK YOU MR FERRET FOR YOUR KIND GIFTS OF WEASELS AND STOATS and cash shhh.
by the way effendi we,l find someone else to sell us live sheep with even less scruples and even less positive cash flow [i know you should laugh]
also your  saudi trade deals got as much chance as the tpp and cost as much to.
 so salaam salaam and fuck you very much :O O:  :Grin:  :Grin:

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## Carlsen Highway

You guys don't understand middle management speak. They don't actually mean predator free, they just mean they will have pest controls programs in place that will cost the full amount of money they have budgeted for. There is no way they would tie their jobs to actual results. That would be suicide.

But I will observe that it is good practice to make dramatic claims that will come to fruition after most of the people involved are either dead or retired.

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## Woody

Yep. Bureaucracies' prime function is self perpetuation. In DoC's and TBFree 's cases the rat rebreeding capacity is a business model. Fleecing the taxpayer is the incidental consequence and this income secured by statute legislation based on bullshit.

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## Maca49

Hello @Woody Happy New Year!

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## tetawa

> Hello @Woody Happy New Year!


+1

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## Woody

Yep; but I;ll be a damned sight happier when the green rain is stopped for ever.

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