# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Semi Autos - Possible Interesting Development

## Beavis

Posted by Herbmeister:

I will try and give a full debrief of the latest meeting with Police over the next few weeks but one point needs to be raised now.

One of the options police are considering when it comes to "managing" semi automatic firearms is making all semi automatics including shotguns and rimfires "E" Cat; Regardless of magazine capacity, features etc.

I have no idea why they feel they need this strategy but it seems short sighted to say the least one thought that comes into my head is have they crunched the numbers when it comes to compensation? Please dont inundate my inbox with requests for more info I will get it all up here in the next week. In the meantime ask you local politician what his/her take is on it, write POLITE letters to the Minister of Police asking if this is party Policy etc.

Follow for updates: FCAF Update - NZ Sport Shooter Forum

----------


## Jacobite

Politely emailed the Minister, the Labour spokesperson, my local MP and Richard Prosser of NZ First (who I have found to be willing to actually engage with members of the public unlike some other politicians) asking for clarification on this and why I am against it.

I'd encourage others to do the same. Politely.

----------


## AzumitH

Lay the groundwork so the next time we're burdened with a Labour-Green trainwreck they can push for banning of all semi autos?

Can't even tell if I have my tinfoil strapped on too tight any more  :Sad:

----------


## Steve123

I wonder if I could make a profit on my sks?
And dud mini 30 come to think of it the JW15 outshoots the 10/22 .??????
Nah 

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

----------


## Jacobite

Well had Annette King and Richard Prosser email back within hours. Annette King has not heard of any such move but said she would investigate. I then asked her if it would be a policy that Labour would support. Waiting on a reply on that but until I get word back I'm not about to jump on and say Labour are for such a thing, they know how  angry it would make people. Richard Prosser can see how the Government would be for such an idea and he seems against it. He said that they have several members of NZ First who keeping tabs on the issue and Ron Mark, being the Police spokesperson for NZ is their go-to man on the subject but he will dig further.

----------


## Steve123

> Well had Annette King and Richard Prosser email back within hours. Annette King has not heard of any such move but said she would investigate. I then asked her if it would be a policy that Labour would support. Waiting on a reply on that but until I get word back I'm not about to jump on and say Labour are for such a thing, they know how  angry it would make people. Richard Prosser can see how the Government would be for such an idea and he seems against it. He said that they have several members of NZ First who keeping tabs on the issue and Ron Mark, being the Police spokesperson for NZ is their go-to man on the subject but he will dig further.


Sure to be a vote loser if they include semi auto shotguns

----------


## Marty Henry

I cant get the link to open, would like to read the background before making noises. Have already submitted on the review

----------


## ebf

Not surprised at all, it is the logical conclusion to the police's attempts to define a particular class of firearm having been circumvented at each turn.

Will be interesting to see how politically palatable this move is with the farming community, especially with regards to stuff like 10/22s which are common as. Farmers are a much larger and stronger political group in this country when compared to "ar" enthusiasts.

Bottom line is that for sporting use of a semi you are likely to have to belong to a club, much like B-cat

----------


## stretch

> Bottom line is that for sporting use of a semi you are likely to have to belong to a club, much like B-cat


That's a huge leap, right there.

----------


## Ryan

The police continually state that they are under-resourced which, given they've not received a budget increase for ~7 years, is hardly surprising. How then do they expect to enforce this proposed new law I wonder?

----------


## Steve123

> Not surprised at all, it is the logical conclusion to the police's attempts to define a particular class of firearm having been circumvented at each turn.
> 
> Will be interesting to see how politically palatable this move is with the farming community, especially with regards to stuff like 10/22s which are common as. Farmers are a much larger and stronger political group in this country when compared to "ar" enthusiasts.
> 
> Bottom line is that for sporting use of a semi you are likely to have to belong to a club, much like B-cat


There's going to be a lot of duck hunting clubs then. Plod hasn't thought this one through at all.

----------


## ebf

> There's going to be a lot of duck hunting clubs then. Plod hasn't thought this one through at all.


More than possible to restrict recreational hunting to non semi-auto. Make it part of the license conditions... Water-fowling with double barrel or single shot only is common in a lot of countries.

IPSC 3-gun, multigun and service comps I think are where the majority of non-hunting sporting use of semi shotguns would be.

----------


## Steve123

> More than possible to restrict recreational hunting to non semi-auto. Make it part of the license conditions... Water-fowling with double barrel or single shot only is common in a lot of countries.
> 
> IPSC 3-gun, multigun and service comps I think are where the majority of non-hunting sporting use of semi shotguns would be.


Yeah how many people own a semi shot gun at the moment?
what if they move to include pumps and lever rifles?

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

----------


## R93

Not saying I agree with this at all because I believe there is a hidden agenda if it comes to pass.
But say it does pass, it would create a heap of E cat applications when they struggle with what they have on their plate now. 
As Ryan said how will they even start to enforce this. Cost to them in time alone would be untenable imo.
Same old bullshit tho. Knee-jerk reaction that puts out and costs law abiding people.



Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

----------


## gonetropo

so no bunny blasting with a 10/22 ? its the best gun for the job

----------


## Chilli_Dog

Im new to all of this, can someone tell me who or what FCAF is? 

Being cynical it does look like the police are trying to push a firearm register, if this comes to pass I would not be surprised if eventually everything becomes E cat. It would be nice if they could look at useful avenues of reducing gun crime and firearm incidents, there is plenty of scope to require more secure A cat storage, increase penalties for firearm offenses (ie possession is automatically considered intent etc), more rigorous license testing/training (maybe even similar to the car license process). 

Then there is the question that needs answering, which is where do the criminal organizations actually get their weapons from. It would also be interesting to see why they want to target MSSAs, just from watching the news it seems they are very rarely if ever used in any of the firearm incidents, most seem to be old shotguns and .22s

----------


## GravelBen

> ...It would also be interesting to see why they want to target MSSAs...


Because politicians and bureaucrats watch hollywood movies and think they look scary?

----------


## R93

I do not think they are going for a register in total.
They do want to know where all the semis are.

I also think it is a round about way to ensure every firearm is stored in at least an E cat suitable safe. They don't stop theft in every scenario but they may reduce it.

They are still not tackling the issue they claimed they would and only forcing the compliant to even more restrictions and cost. Crims have no such issues😆
 I love this country but some of our decision makers are seriously stupid and lack any common sense.



Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

----------


## Vapour

you would like to think (wishful) that if this happened the E cat regulations would be watered down significantly to justify the huge increase in new applicants.  So basically semis on E but it's just like a A but with a better safe and a register.   Their end game has to be to reduce work load on themselves but improve the ability to restrict criminals from getting guns

----------


## AzumitH

> Their end game has to be to reduce work load on themselves but improve the ability to restrict criminals from getting guns


A registry is a poor way to get there that's for sure.

----------


## MassiveAttack

> so no bunny blasting with a 10/22 ? its the best gun for the job


No, an AR is the best bunny blaster.  Ideally one with a normal pistol grip and a normal magazine.

----------


## jim160

So am I right to guess that cause it has been suggested, then it is going to happen. They have also.mentioned a buy back and ban of certain types of rifles. But that never happened. 

Maybe we should wait for more info before we jump on the bandwagon. 

By all means be prepared, but for the right thing, not on a "maybe it will happen whim"

----------


## 199p

Hmm might be a good time to stock up on E cat safes  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## P38

Easy enough way too get a gun registry up and running too. 

Cheers
Pete

----------


## Beavis

> Im new to all of this, can someone tell me who or what FCAF is? 
> 
> Being cynical it does look like the police are trying to push a firearm register, if this comes to pass I would not be surprised if eventually everything becomes E cat. It would be nice if they could look at useful avenues of reducing gun crime and firearm incidents, there is plenty of scope to require more secure A cat storage, increase penalties for firearm offenses (ie possession is automatically considered intent etc), more rigorous license testing/training (maybe even similar to the car license process). 
> 
> Then there is the question that needs answering, which is where do the criminal organizations actually get their weapons from. It would also be interesting to see why they want to target MSSAs, just from watching the news it seems they are very rarely if ever used in any of the firearm incidents, most seem to be old shotguns and .22s



Firearms council advisory forum. It is a group comprised of industry members and representatives of shooting groups such as COLFO, NZSRA etc. They meet to discuss firearms policy issues with Police.

----------


## Jacobite

> Easy enough way too get a gun registry up and running too. 
> 
> Cheers
> Pete


Odd thing is police don't want that, they had it running till '83 and then gave up as it was too much work. I don't really see how making anybody with a 10/22 need an E-Cat endorsement is going to be less work for them or solve the problem of crims getting their hands on guns but then again if they take this track it's obviously going to be a blatant push to just simply get people to hand in their firearms. Now if the Police actually had the funding to tackle the actual problem at source then it would be a different story but a budget freeze for 8 years will have that affect. I can see why they are tempted to say "screw it, let's just get rid of them all so we don't have to bother with the problem", not that I agree with that approach at all obviously.

----------


## Beavis

It would turn into a nightmare for those tasked to administer it. Whether the policy makers care is another thing.

----------


## Steve123

> It would turn into a nightmare for those tasked to administer it. Whether the policy makers care is another thing.


Plods snowed under with all the vetting from the Vulnerable Children Act. Anyone who's job has the remotest chance of them having to go into a school or pre-school has to be vetted. We're meant to get vetted for some work we're doing at the University but plod done 1/2 the applications then refused to do the rest. I don't think Plod's bosses have much contact with reality. I think the average cop does wonders with the bullshit they put up with

----------


## Tommy

> I don't think Plod's bosses have much contact with reality. I think the average cop does wonders with the bullshit they put up with


Bingo

----------


## Tankd

This is nothing more than a bureaucratic space filler i.e its intention is to make a report whatever look like it has been "fully researched"
        MMP will render this a "not bloody likely",because of the backlash from not only Firearms users ,but their Wives/Girlfriends/Mothers etc .

----------


## veitnamcam

I don t own any semi's but think this is bullshit.

Any of you literate law/politics understanding type people going to post up something us semiliterate non law/politics understanding types can copy paste/add remove bits so we can lobby?

cos lets face it you dont want me or half of the rest of us spouting off incoherent misspelled unpunctuatted drivel cos it will just make us look bad as a whole.

----------


## kotuku

gundoc would be qualified to comment here based on his "starring" when the plods hamfisted attempts to classify MSSA's by a freestanding pistolgrip alone was challenged in the courts.
Justice Jillian Mallon made no bones about kicking police arse in her judgement -all 33 pages of it.
the crux of it is simple 
POLICE are not judge jury and executioner-poli's make laws ,courts interperet them -police act on those interpretations,and she was crystal clear on this.

----------


## Jexla

I imagine that if they were going to go down this route it would exclude rimfire and shotguns because of the many reasons mentioned here.

----------


## timattalon

> I imagine that if they were going to go down this route it would exclude rimfire and shotguns because of the many reasons mentioned here.


Indeed. They wont want to target what the crims are actually using as that will simply create a difficult workload. Better to concentrate on those that will probably comply......Less effort needed for stats to look good for the bosses.

----------


## tommygun

If I get a spare moment this week I will tally up the 100 most recent entries into the arms book at work into semi-auto A cats. and other A cats, but my guess at the moment is about 30% semi's. Multiply that even by the conservative estimate from the 1990's of 1,000,000 firearms in NZ, and you have 300,000. Imagine the poor cops/arms officers being told that: 
"Right lads, were looking to track down an unknown number of firearms, probably about three hundred thousand, we need to get the owners to register them but we have no idea who has what so here is a list of the 250,000 license holders. Hop to it."

----------


## sometimes

When they banned semi autos in Australia plumbers sold out of large plastic pipe and end caps  .Normal story make life hard for  law abiding citizens criminals get busted with illegal firearms what do they have to lose nothing  .In this day and age if you have the money you can get anything you want the law only works for the people who live by them

----------


## kotuku

> When they banned semi autos in Australia plumbers sold out of large plastic pipe and end caps  .Normal story make life hard for  law abiding citizens criminals get busted with illegal firearms what do they have to lose nothing  .In this day and age if you have the money you can get anything you want the law only works for the people who live by them


this is particularly apt cause I read recently somewhere that aussie "authorities" are complaining about container loads of assorted AK47 type arms entering the country illegally,and them being apparently unable to figure a modus operandi to counter this
.mind you given theaussie polis antics over there in last 2yrs Id be buggered if i could figure out a decent way to even govern aussie sensibly

----------


## Beavis

Firearms Community Advisory Forum Minutes | New Zealand Police

The May 2016 FCAF minutes can be found here. Some "interesting" comments from police here, IMO indicating a change of attitude towards our firearms control regime. I'll let you all think for yourselves but to me it seems they are keen for universal registration and the way they talk about semi autos is like they already don't consider them sporting firearms.

----------


## AzumitH

Still like to know what the fuck is a sporterized MSSA.

----------


## 300CALMAN

Had a quick read, looks like they don't know what they are talking about, oh well here we go again. 

Interesting commentaries about controlling ammo imports through import licenses. After conceding that it was not that easy to import ammo and that people would just "manufacture" they decided that maybe the import of powder would need a license.. then OK well that was controlled under hazardous goods legislation  :Wtfsmilie:  Are we paying these  people??

----------


## Beavis

I found the comment about people choosing to manufacture their own ammo particularly ridiculous

----------


## Ryan

Nowhere in there did I see any mention of improving the security of firearm storage. 

Given that most of the recently stolen "high powered assault rifles" have been A category firearms and that the minimum security requirements for this class of firearm is woefully inadequate, surely a fundamental principle of preventing these from falling into the wrong hands should be to ensure that they're difficult to get hold of in the first instance? 

Instead of going after things like magazines (the horse has looooong since bolted on that) and proposing buybacks (expensive), perhaps the government should look at offering a subsidy to those A category FLIC holders to upgrade their firearms storage to B/C/E standard as a more cost effective option and without pissing off thousands of people in the process. 

I lol'd at the proposed prohibition orders. If a criminal's offered an illegal firearm from someone, does one really think they're going to stop and think "hmm, I've a prohibition order against me, I shouldn't do this"? Probably not because criminals tend not to obey laws. That's why they're called _criminals_.

Just enforce the laws already on the books with regard to theft of firearms, illegal possession of firearms etc.

----------


## tetawa

With some of the blades and cutting wheels available today, a E cat safe is no hassle to enter. The deterrent needs to be in the courts, not the licenced firearm owner.

----------


## 7mmsaum

Had a quick read, lots of generalisations and exaggerations.

The comments around AR rifles in the latest minutes were incorrect, and angled to produce an effect.

Real shame, those people were meant to be intelligent.

----------


## 308

> With some of the blades and cutting wheels available today, a E cat safe is no hassle to enter. The deterrent needs to be in the courts, not the licenced firearm owner.


True that - what worries me the most is the idiocy of governments when it comes to data security - they know where all the E-cat owners live and that would be a helluva shopping list. I don't see any proposals on the part of them to secure that information above and beyond what they have already

----------


## Ryan

> With some of the blades and cutting wheels available today, a E cat safe is no hassle to enter. The deterrent needs to be in the courts, not the licenced firearm owner.


If a criminal wants something badly enough, nothing will stop them.

----------


## 300CALMAN

> If a criminal wants something badly enough, nothing will stop them.


True and a hand tool resistant safe will NOT stop all of them. But the need to grind their way in will make it harder especially if you have an alarm. 

At the end of the day these people should be kept off the streets.

----------


## sheppard84

I recently had an exasperated chuckle at a recent episode of police 10-7 where a shotgun was used in an offense.  All the emphasis was on removing the firearm from circulation rather than catching the person who used it/acquired it.

----------


## gadgetman

> I recently had an exasperated chuckle at a recent episode of police 10-7 where a shotgun was used in an offense.  All the emphasis was on removing the firearm from circulation rather than catching the person who used it/acquired it.


And far more motor vehicles are used by the crims, even in order to kill people. And knives, baseball bats, tools, .... Quite simply they need to sort the problem (crims) rather than ALL of the tools they use. Trouble is they go too softly, softly on them and by the time they get around to doing anything that could have been effective the crims are now career crims.

----------


## 308

Having said that, I have met a guy who made his own safe and the door is double-skinned. 
He filled the void with gunpowder and the outer skin is fairly light so the explosion would go outwards were anyone to try getting into it with a grinder.

Probably illegal but would certainly be gratifying

----------


## Tommy

> Having said that, I have met a guy who made his own safe and the door is double-skinned. 
> He filled the void with gunpowder and the outer skin is fairly light so the explosion would go outwards were anyone to try getting into it with a grinder.
> 
> Probably illegal but would certainly be gratifying


A big ass sticker on the door saying "WARNING, GUNPOWDER" and technically it's no longer a man trap?

----------


## 300CALMAN

> A big ass sticker on the door saying "WARNING, GUNPOWDER" and technically it's no longer a man trap?


HAHA you could just say. But "Your Honor" I thought it was the safest place to store my powder! Look I even put a sticker on it!

----------


## res

> Having said that, I have met a guy who made his own safe and the door is double-skinned. 
> He filled the void with gunpowder and the outer skin is fairly light so the explosion would go outwards were anyone to try getting into it with a grinder.
> 
> Probably illegal but would certainly be gratifying


Have heard story's of people storing there powder on the back of strong room doors etc. 

I really like the thinking behind it but the crims can have my guns rather than me ending up in jail after a successful mantrap activation. 

I'll just have to stick to strong storage that's has alarms-the company knows to ring the police of it goes off


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## 300CALMAN

> Have heard story's of people storing there powder on the back of strong room doors etc. 
> 
> I really like the thinking behind it but the crims can have my guns rather than me ending up in jail after a successful mantrap activation. 
> 
> I'll just have to stick to strong storage that's has alarms-the company knows to ring the police of it goes off
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes unfortunately in the PC society we live in that is the reality. Don't really want to burn my house down either, you can bet insurance wouldn't pay for it. The sad fact is you become the baddie defending what is yours.

----------


## ubique

For all the talk of breaking into safes etc,  has anyone else here actually ever known,  even second hand,  of burglars breaking into a proper gun safe  (not an a cat tin can) in nz? Not being sarky,  just interested in any real life examples

----------


## res

> For all the talk of breaking into safes etc,  has anyone else here actually ever known,  even second hand,  of burglars breaking into a proper gun safe  (not an a cat tin can) in nz? Not being sarky,  just interested in any real life examples


A mate had is old e cat safe (chub I think) cut into-fortunately he had built a strongroom a year or so beforehand so it was only used as a decoy and for stuff he still had to clean etc. 
they just cut a fairly small hole and fussed the ducked old .22s etc he had in it out through it. It was a targeted burglary and it has yet to be solved. I don't really want to say how they cut it but it was not that hard. It was a better safe than any I have owned. 

It can and does happen. 

Restrict working space around the safe if you can. Hide the safe if you can. Don't hang out with scum. Have insurance. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## Beavis

I've been told of a couple of cases of E category safes being defeated by burglars in our district, in recent times. 

Most A cat safes are honestly garbage. They can be pried open fairly easy if you are determined. Thin steel, poor design. Cases where B, C and E category firearms are stolen always seem to be targeted, and theives with time and tools will get in. 

I posed the question of how many stolen firearms get recovered, to somebody in the police with good knowledge of the issue. The answer was "basically none".

----------


## Rushy

> I don t own any semi's but think this is bullshit.
> 
> Any of you literate law/politics understanding type people going to post up something us semiliterate non law/politics understanding types can copy paste/add remove bits so we can lobby?
> 
> cos lets face it you dont want me or half of the rest of us spouting off incoherent misspelled unpunctuatted drivel cos it will just make us look bad as a whole.


Very well said VC.

----------


## Rushy

> If a criminal wants something badly enough, nothing will stop them.


The premises that cannot be broken into and the physical and electronic security system that cannot be overcome have both yet to be designed.  I spent several years proving to people that the thousands of dollars they had spent on their security could be easily overcome.  I recall one particularly wealthy individual spitting the dummy big time when I demonstrated that I could get into the middle of his highly secure fourth floor Remuera apartment and remove his most prized possession right under the eyes of his really expensive monitored security system.  Ahh those were the days.  Sorry for the thread deviation, I am just making a point.

----------


## kotuku

> The premises that cannot be broken into and the physical and electronic security system that cannot be overcome have both yet to be designed.  I spent several years proving to people that the thousands of dollars they had spent on their security could be easily overcome.  I recall one particularly wealthy individual spitting the dummy big time when I demonstrated that I could get into the middle of his highly secure fourth floor Remuera apartment and remove his most prized possession right under the eyes of his really expensive monitored security system.  Ahh those were the days.  Sorry for the thread deviation, I am just making a point.


and you Sir are right on the money-whats the old saying -the first man invents a foolproof system-the second comes along and finds the holes in it.
yes people need to understand -to the committed scum security is simply a series of obstacles to be overcome on your way to removing your ill gotten gains
universities of crime-Paremomo,Mt Eden Paparoa all no doubt offer easily accessed knowledge and tuition in this.
 congrats to his honour who sent Russell Tully ,the ashburton shooter down for 27yrs+-mind you should have got another five for an illegal firearm,but either way it puts a self entitled prick outta circulation for a good spell.

----------


## 308

Restrict working space around the safe if you can. Hide the safe if you can. Don't hang out with scum. Have insurance. 


These 4 things will help immensely and I'd add

Don't talk guns with your unknown colleagues
Don't put "I like guns" stickers on your truck
Load them into said truck inside the garage if you can

I'm not naturally a secret squirrel kind of guy but it is better to be discreet IMO

----------


## tetawa

> Restrict working space around the safe if you can. Hide the safe if you can. Don't hang out with scum. Have insurance. 
> 
> 
> These 4 things will help immensely and I'd add
> 
> Don't talk guns with your unknown colleagues
> Don't put "I like guns" stickers on your truck
> Load them into said truck inside the garage if you can
> 
> I'm not naturally a secret squirrel kind of guy but it is better to be discreet IMO


And be careful what details you show on here as anyone can look.

----------


## Ryan

> The premises that cannot be broken into and the physical and electronic security system that cannot be overcome have both yet to be designed.  I spent several years proving to people that the thousands of dollars they had spent on their security could be easily overcome.  I recall one particularly wealthy individual spitting the dummy big time when I demonstrated that I could get into the middle of his highly secure fourth floor Remuera apartment and remove his most prized possession right under the eyes of his really expensive monitored security system.  Ahh those were the days.  Sorry for the thread deviation, I am just making a point.


Point agreed. 

People too often lull themselves into a false sense of security by relying on only one aspect of security alone (e.g. the alarm system or the tough safe). The safe for example, should be the absolute last layer of security and the criminal should have expended a lot of time, effort and preferably have drawn attention to themselves in the process of even reaching it, let alone attempting to access the contents.

----------


## 300CALMAN

Totally agree, unfortunately security is about making yourself a less desirable/easy target than the next chump on the street. From what I understand there are a lot of opportunist theft where they will scope out places to do. Apparently the inorganic rubbish collections were a great opportunity to scope out houses. If you are specifically targeted by someone who knows what they are doing your best security efforts will be tested.

----------


## zimmer

> And be careful what details you show on here as anyone can look.


Dead right, I personally don't own a single firearm so there, leave me alone. I have a giggle at other forums where the posters list what they own. Pissing contest or shopping list?
The other giveaway is posting links on here to TradeMe auto sales, (sorry to those that post here). Doesn't require much sleuthing to... well most will get the idea.

----------


## Rushy

> Point agreed. 
> 
> People too often lull themselves into a false sense of security by relying on only one aspect of security alone (e.g. the alarm system or the tough safe). The safe for example, should be the absolute last layer of security and the criminal should have expended a lot of time, effort and preferably have drawn attention to themselves in the process of even reaching it, let alone attempting to access the contents.


Good security is about defence in depth.  Deter, Delay, Detect and Detain.  Make the offenders think twice and not want to take the risk (think warning signs, fences, locks, bars, lighting etc), then make it as hard as fuck for them to get in (again bars, locks, hinge bolts, dogs etc) , then catch them in the act (electronic alarm / CCTV detection, alarm monitoring etc) and then make it as hard as fuck for them to get out ( deadlocks etc).  Take an holistic approach to your security and the criminals will find somewhere easier to go.

----------


## kotuku

hows about signs"-how fast can you run-the dog does 5.38secs for 100m-slightly more with your balls in his jaws". :Wtfsmilie: 
 should you meet my wife whilst youre burgling -she'll smile :Psmiley:  and say "where do i send your flowers?" too late to run chump-you're well fucked: :Zomg: 

Im a piss poor shot -wife&daughters aint..fuck off and have a happy day! :Redbullsmiley:

----------


## dogmatix

> Restrict working space around the safe if you can. Hide the safe if you can. Don't hang out with scum. Have insurance. 
> 
> 
> These 4 things will help immensely and I'd add
> 
> Don't talk guns with your unknown colleagues
> Don't put "I like guns" stickers on your truck
> Load them into said truck inside the garage if you can
> 
> I'm not naturally a secret squirrel kind of guy but it is better to be discreet IMO


Plus don't be member of a Facebook sell/exchange group!

----------


## Rushy

> hows about signs"-how fast can you run-the dog does 5.38secs for 100m-slightly more with your balls in his jaws".
>  should you meet my wife whilst youre burgling -she'll smile and say "where do i send your flowers?" too late to run chump-you're well fucked:
> 
> Im a piss poor shot -wife&daughters aint..fuck off and have a happy day!


All have very good deterrent value Kotuku.

----------


## tetawa

> hows about signs"-how fast can you run-the dog does 5.38secs for 100m-slightly more with your balls in his jaws".
>  should you meet my wife whilst youre burgling -she'll smile and say "where do i send your flowers?" too late to run chump-you're well fucked:
> 
> Im a piss poor shot -wife&daughters aint..fuck off and have a happy day!


I wish the courts would give us some back up, wouldn't take many 10 - 15 years for the penny to drop, wonder if any of the political parties would have a hard nose policy on illegal firearm possession for next year.

----------


## 300CALMAN

> I wish the courts would give us some back up, wouldn't take many 10 - 15 years for the penny to drop, wonder if any of the political parties would have a hard nose policy on illegal firearm possession for next year.


Not able to go political here @tetawa (difficult at times, firearms are such a political theme). There is one who would but for most of them it's much easier to just blame us for the problem.

----------


## tetawa

> Not able to go political here @tetawa (difficult at times, firearms are such a political theme). There is one who would but for most of them it's much easier to just blame us for the problem.


Sorry, just slipped out, pd or home detention.

----------


## Kscott

> I wish the courts would give us some back up, wouldn't take many 10 - 15 years for the penny to drop, wonder if any of the political parties would have a hard nose policy on illegal firearm possession for next year.


Murder is still illegal, has a heavy sentencing structure and it's not a deterrent because murder still happens.

Unless there's a terrible, obscene tragedy due to stolen firearms, mandatory long sentences for illegal possession and/or use of firearms just realistically isn't going to happen. In as much as folks wanting to be able string up murderers at the nearest lamp post, also won't happen.

----------


## Ryan

> Good security is about defence in depth.  Deter, Delay, Detect and Detain.  Make the offenders think twice and not want to take the risk (think warning signs, fences, locks, bars, lighting etc), then make it as hard as fuck for them to get in (again bars, locks, hinge bolts, dogs etc) , then catch them in the act (electronic alarm / CCTV detection, alarm monitoring etc) and then make it as hard as fuck for them to get out ( deadlocks etc).  Take an holistic approach to your security and the criminals will find somewhere easier to go.


And even then, as bitter experience has taught me, one's security can still be defeated.

----------


## GravelBen

> Murder is still illegal, has a heavy sentencing structure and it's not a deterrent because murder still happens.


Thats a pretty illogical statement - by saying its not a deterrent you're effectively claiming that legalising murder would make no difference to the murder rate.

----------


## Rushy

> And even then, as bitter experience has taught me, one's security can still be defeated.


Yep.  Like I said, the premises and security that can't be breached have yet to be designed.

----------


## Ryan

> Yep.  Like I said, the premises and security that can't be breached have yet to be designed.


Fort Knox has held up quite well so far.

----------


## Rushy

> Fort Knox has held up quite well so far.


Hmmmm now there's a challenge!

----------


## Ryan

> Hmmmm now there's a challenge!

----------


## Beetroot

If this idea goes ahead I reckon everyone who owns a new E cat Ruger 10/22 or semi shotgun, should buy and sell (swap) them with their mates ones once a month so the police have a ridiculous amount of paper work, think they would get over it pretty quickly.

----------


## Jexla

> If this idea goes ahead I reckon everyone who owns a new E cat Ruger 10/22 or semi shotgun, should buy and sell (swap) them with their mates ones once a month so the police have a ridiculous amount of paper work, think they would get over it pretty quickly.


They'd stop you doing it however they pleased unfortunately.

----------


## Kscott

December minutes for the Advisory forum.

http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/defa...cember2016.pdf

----------


## Rushy

Thanks

----------


## 308

Thank you - looks like a screw-up as regards measuring certain E-cat items in a folded position

They seem to have got a bit of the message that we are watching them with suspicion and with good reason

----------


## dogmatix

So in other words, their 'interpretation' to MSSAs with folding/telescoping stock is not what the Act outlines.

----------


## Sideshow

The last part about the email I found rather interesting....the next minutes might be even more entertaining  :ORLY:

----------

