# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Licensing and mental illness

## ebf

With the last couple of incidents in the US, the whole issue of mental illness has come up again.

Interested to hear your guys thoughts on this.

I reckon most of the population suffer from some form of mental illness at some point in their life. Does that mean they should automatically be excluded from the licensing process ?

What about folks that suffer from mild depression and/or anxiety and are controlling it with medication ?

If someone had a mental health issue and has been treated and is all good now, how long should the stand-down period be ?

You can't really expect a doctor to say "well, John is ok now, all good", and then have the guy turn around and shoot someone down the line. So does that mean people simply do not declare any past or present mental health issues when applying ?

Other than looking at someones medical records (never going to happen with NZ privacy laws), how can the police effectively get a picture of the applicants mental health record ?

What if someone is "sane". Gets a license and then has a meltdown ? Should any mental health issues by "notifyable" in the case of a person who has a firearms license ?

Lots of tricky questions and no easy answers...

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## Mike H

I know of someone who had a bout of depression after a marriage break up. A mate let the cops know and they took his guns off him for the duration of his illness. Once he got through it he got them back.

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## mikee

> What if someone is "sane". Gets a license and then has a meltdown ? Should any mental health issues by "notifyable" in the case of a person who has a firearms license ?


From personal experience 20 years ago. My uncle suffered manic depression  with all that goes with it. Made all sorts of threats. His sister (my mum) went to police to suggest his licence be revoked and firearms removed. They didn't want to be involved / not their problem until and offense committed.
Mental Health people didn't want to know as didn't want to 'set him off"

I still had a reasonable relationship so I ended up going to visit him to "borrow" all his firearms as I wanted to go hunting and sold all mine to raise funds for the house we just brought,
They sat in my gunsafe till he passed away (brain tumor), but as far as I know he could have purchased more as his licence was never revoked.

Bottom line is it should not have been up to me to do this. I often wonder how many times this happens?

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## Kscott

1. Define mental illness.

2. See item 1

A high profile "mental illness" sufferer with a FAL is Cameron Slater aka WhaleOil.

I believe the biggest issue is actually looking at the American system and thinking there's a form of logic  :Grin:

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## Beavis

Can only rely on the quality and honesty of the referee's. Looking at the mass shooters they all were ticking time bombs with common behavioral history traits. Regular people don't just randomly flip out. And statistics seem to suggest that regular people who fall on tough times are more likely to turn a gun on themselves than a bunch of school children.

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## Dan88

I think that really bad mental illnesses would get picked up with the initial vetting process, just from talking to referees and talking to the applicant and seeing their home would defiantly give some clues. ( I was planning on asking the vetter how many applications get declined just out of curiosity but sadly forgot)
once the license was issued it becomes a real grey area, if it was me i would hope that a mate would notice and either take me out for a hunt or borrow my guns for awhile.

good topic for a thread, really got the gears turning

P.s dont ask me to define a bad mental illness

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## Flincher

My mother hates firearms with a passion. I had her as a referee for my license as I was still living with her at the time and had to have a family member.  I wasn't sure if she was gonna try and stop me from getting it. But she said she doesnt like them personally but has no problem with them. And did mention in my last year of high school I had mild depression (2 or 3 years before I applied).  I found out I couldn't be a Comercial pilot. Wasn't bad and didn't go on meds. I didn't know mum told the guy who interviewed me. I mentioned it when he asked. Didn't seem to be a problem.  I will happily be a reference for anyone wanting a firearms license. ESPECIALLY if I do not think they are not fit and propper.It is up to us to maintain the integrity of the system.

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## Beavis

Depression isn't an immediate give away of a pending active shooter. Everybody gets depressed. But if you look at the bulk of cases, depression is one part of the puzzle these people display. Off the top of my head - personality disorders, a sense of intitlement, a lack of meaningful friendships and relationships, childish anger issues, withdrawn from society. These were traits displayed by some of the most infamous killers. Now under our system it's pretty hard to get a license if you have no mates to be a referee. In the Oregon case it was noted that he was turned away from a firearms training group because they thought he was a weirdo.

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## Taff

The problem with stigmatising depression is a double edged sword , people with firearms licenses are less likely to seek help if they could lose there license, so a very mild case which could be talked through without any problems can result in a more severe case.

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## 7mmsaum

> Depression isn't an immediate give away of a pending active shooter. Everybody gets depressed. But if you look at the bulk of cases, depression is one part of the puzzle these people display. Off the top of my head - personality disorders, a sense of intitlement, a lack of meaningful friendships and relationships, childish anger issues, withdrawn from society. These were traits displayed by some of the most infamous killers. Now under our system it's pretty hard to get a license if you have no mates to be a referee. In the Oregon case it was noted that he was turned away from a firearms training group because they thought he was a weirdo.



Yes, personality disorders within the criteria shown in the DSM- 5 list should automatically disqualify 
an applicant

But, far too complicated to identify and enforce.

I know a few people in this category and they should not have a firearms license as generally their thought patterns and emotions are too unstable.

I wouldn't be happy with them using a sharp knife around me either...............




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## northdude

a couple of things are some people have depression and don't even relise they do so how do you actually test for it the other thing is just by taking away firearms it wont nessecarily stop people from hurting people who have their mind set on doing so a gun,car,knife,baseball bat,axe or whatever is a harmless object until you add a human to it I think guns seem so bad to some people because they are a tool of war

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## kotuku

right heres my story .Iam a psychiatric nurse (43yrs),i suffer from depression(25yrs+)and am on medication. When it came to my FAL renewal I was straight up with the boys in blue ,and gave em the OK to talk to my GP about it .sweet as ,all sorted.
  Access to firearms In terms of mental health Is always foremost in my present forensic setting.should anyone i nurse show more than a passing interest Its noted.anyone with active firearms experience or military experience -also noted. Why -because eventually that person could potentially have access to firearms to either self harm(suicide)or the other. Its also a question which is often asked of whanua.betyter safe than sorry!
 N z's mental health system has built in protocols re driving license-automatic revocation and the forms placed on file&computer, if you are detained in a under compulsory status and this requires permisson of the  govt transport HQ in wellington to be reinstated following a very arduous assessment process.have dealt with more than one who ran foul of the boys in blue based on that one.
   now I hear you say "he can check up on anyone _NO!Under present privacy laws and employer legislation its a sackable offence for me to even attempt to Access MY OWN RECORDS. communications to police ,dsw ,sis etc is allowed under specifically set out criteria within privacy laws ,but this would be undertaken normally by someone miles higher up the command structure than me.
   yessiree you read it right -I own that info ,but because I am not actively nursing me its regarded as a gross invasion of privacy.at times i may be away from my parent unit and have to access certain info but even then protocols are in place and make no mistake these are rigorously checked.
BTWnothdude -bloody nice summary that Its got it in a nutshell. Add socks to the list of dangerous weapons too -the last successful suicide i was involved in hung themseves from the bedroom door with nknotted socks.,successfully too ,despite my  cuttin off the socks and us doing CPRfor 15mins flat tack!

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## oneshot

The main concern for Police is if its the type of mental illness where Police have become involved due to an incident, or the individual has been committed for a period of time, or being on strong meds such as antipsychotics may play a factor in being declined a FAL. And of course if your partner says "don't give him a FAL he is crazy" that wouldn't help much either.

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## steven

> Yes, personality disorders within the criteria shown in the DSM- 5 list should automatically disqualify 
> an applicant
> 
> But, far too complicated to identify and enforce.
> 
> I know a few people in this category and they should not have a firearms license as generally their thought patterns and emotions are too unstable.
> 
> I wouldn't be happy with them using a sharp knife around me either...............
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just quit an interest group as frankly I think too many of the posters in there shouldnt be near a knife either let alone own Cat-E firearms.

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## MassiveAttack

The big problem is that if mental illnesss bars you from firearms ownership then people will avoid treatement so you have mentally unstable people without treatment who have access to firearms.  Think of the sutiation of someone coming back from the middle east with PTSD.  They have a choice of seaking treatment but loosing their firearms or avoiding treatment, keeping their firearms and living with the mental illness.

I honestly don't know what the answer is.

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## Haggie

I think people are missing that the source of the issue in the US is the absolute lack of anyform of public health care, with only criminally mentally ill and those with families that can afford some kind of treatment/care have any access to what anybody here does. There shootings are more a result of the lack of mental health reforms and less the availabillity of guns. In fact if you read into the stats areas with higher gun ownership have less mass shootings and mass shootings have less victims when stopped by anther armed individual than by the police. It seems backwards but in the case of the states more people carrying is safer in a sense. Side note if you remove gun deaths resultant from self defence the stats are much lower and even with all this gun crime the murder rate is still comparable per capita to Japan which has Zero personal gun ownership

We all ready vet potential candidates for fals pretty well, and as formentioned the police do remove firearms from people during bouts of depression if someone states that there may be a risk.

In short I dont think what happens in the US regarding shootings or mental health really has any correlation to NZ

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## Jexla

Slightly on topic about murders, not exactly mental illness. But just an informational video.

https://youtu.be/pELwCqz2JfE

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## res

> I just quit an interest group as frankly I think too many of the posters in there shouldnt be near a knife either let alone own Cat-E firearms.


If your (a) who I think you are, and (b) it's the farcebook group I'm thinking off-I wondered why your name had gone gray   :Sad:

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## kotuku

DSM as a diagnostic tool in mental illness is also under a cloud due to the "close" relationship between physicians /writers  and the american health insurance industry 
 ie he sc ores 5/10 markers theres  the illness and my bill ,wheres my cheque??the individual doesnt figure in that equation.
 The reason mental illness is so difficult (and in answer to you massive )is that there are no clearcut pigeonholes.ie  someone is depressed-?psychotic ,reactive ,postpartum etc etc oh but hold on they also show strong schizophrenic features,oh and a past history of drug/alcohol abuse plus there IQ is dull normal. dont recoil this is not uncommon and its a very bloody arduous process to actually untangle that web and decide where to start planning treatment and most important today where are we going to go with this person.society today care more about their arseholes than those unfortunate to suffer mental illness(90%of which is due to circumstances beyo nd that persons control)-
  The NZ police have only recently incorporated extensive mental health training in their basic phase .also CHCH and counties amnukau bases have specialists mental heatlh nurses installed in their watchhouses to deal with such people and liase with police ,justice ,corrections ,and hospitals.
 I hope this gives you some idea of what is a very valid but bloody complicated problem

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## screamO

Mental illness, It's a horrible word which nobody wants to talk about and yet it is becoming more and more common. Almost everyone could be diagnosed with a mental illness (at some stage) if they went to see a doctor while feeling down,relationship issues, family issues, health issues, money issues. Does it make them unfit to hold a FAL? Sometimes maybe, sometimes not. The problem I see with mental illness is it's very hard to diagnose compered to a broken bone, cancer, etc. I know of kid's that have been diagnosed with ADHD but instead of taking the drugs they changed there diet and are now completely different kid's. I also know a few people that have committed suicide, which now seems to be the latest trend according to the latest stats :Wtfsmilie:  most of the people I know off thou you would have never thought would do it eg: man with young kids, no money problems and seemed happy then other side off the coin a young boy who had tried at least three times before he got it right.
What's my point? I guess I'm trying to say unless they change the FAL to a 12 month re-newel with a full medical there will be plenty of people out there with a mental illness with a FAL because a lot of shit can happen in 10 years. Like what's been said before, guns don't kill people, people kill people! Lets face it guns aren't hard to get hold off with no FAL and I think they always will be. And while we are there trying to stop people with a mental illness getting there FAL maybe we should be drug testing everyone with a FAL? maybe once a month? P is bad shit but seems to be every where.
Any way, if they want to kill they will, with or with out guns!
I think the big question should be.......how the fuck has society got so fuckin bad????? pricks out there beating the living fuck out of people, rape, murder, bomb threats, parents beating there babies, bulling, shit I could go on all day.
I have a feeling that it has a lot to do with things like social media, movies, cartoons, PlayStation games and ok........... Tinder has had a couple bad wraps also.

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## Maca49

Knives cause much more damage and deaths in NZ than firearms! The problem of abuse and killing will never be sorted, there are to many variables. When a guy king hits an unknown person and puts them in hospital and gets diversion, there's buggar all hope.

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## Survy

@kotuku well said mate re you last post,

Over the years the scope of mental illness has expanded to capture a raft of disorders, such so that it's now being referred to as mental distress, which I believe accurately reflects that sometimes, some people have no control of their situation and need the help and support of others.
We can only hope that sometime in the near future government, private and community agencies can work through their red tape to be able to share information amongst each other on a more consistent basis than they are currently permitted to reduce potential risks.

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## kotuku

Screamo youre right re the media ,but IMHO a hell of a lot is these anonymous antisocial websites or F Bpages that kids become influenced by and alas as has been seen act out on either because of bullying or that greatest of all adolescent angst -losing face amongst your peers.
 Now Im no web genius -in fact I detest these things ,so really only use em if necessary, but Im astute enough to listen to my kids talking and occasionally they will show me stuff which frankly if it was in the open should result in the author being arrested pronto.
 had a young bloke and his not too bright lady friend here a while ago getting some car work done by my son.
these two were raving about the usual stuff ,but in a marked antisocial vein-
Son mentioned a suicide -little cow burst out laughing saying the victim should have smashed her face in before she finally succumbed.
Sons mate ,no  goody two shoes himself ,looks at me ,then says to these two 'this  is      .....old man -hard hua ,guess what he does.?"
   Sheiit the little cow turned about six shades of green ,wouldn't look at me and jumped in laddy bucks car.
   He tood there looking at me as though hed shat on my driveway, so I let him stew for a while whilst I drank a beer and just looked.
  A few "polite" words were spoken and views exchanged.
 Later I heard that she had txt my son saying she was scared shitless of me!!
My only conclusion is a lot of this crap is spoken for image -not really thought through in its entirety ,but hey we all do that periodically.
 anyhow its mental health awareness week so good on you guys for bringin the subject up and relating your own POV or experiences.
 always good to get another POV.Remember if you do have any queries im more than happy to help if you so desire.

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## kotuku

the ADHD scenario is also about as clear as a basket full of babies soiled nappies.
I hear frequently of assorted experts accusing the establishment of overdiagnosing and hence inept medicating,   but at the same time ,they themselves offer so called natural remedies.
Now don't get me wrong Im strictly neutral  theres always two sides to every story.
 however Iam inclined to the POV that with internet access and info with resultant hysteria there is a tendency to rely on not too infallible DIY diagnosis ,without professional investigation.
alas some GPs obviously cave in to pressures and go along with this just for their own pace of mind.

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## Friwi

In France, target and recreational shooters  with equivalent of B cat and E cat guns have to renew their licence every year and get it signed by their GP. ( that occurs for about 145000 participants and voters).
Hunters who mostly got A. Cat type firearms do not need to see their  GP when they renew their annual hunting licence.(1200000voters)

Now the signature of your GP on the licence is a bit like a warrant of fitness. It only says that you are good to go on the day of the issue! 
You can have a break down 3 days/ weeks/ months later , so what ?
This is in place because politics don't want to be held responsible in case of a problem, so the GP get the blame if things go wrong.
The shooting licences and right to get B and E cat are issued by the ministry of Sports... One could imagine the scandal "Pumped up" by the media in case of a mass shooting for exemple ?  By having the GP signing the licence the ministry is not " responsible"!

Hunters having a very strong voting voice are left with alone and do not have the GP burden. They also pay up to the equivalent of $nz800 to renew their licence every year, so that is a lot of money that goes to the ministry of Agriculture( in charge of the hunters)

Another group of people having guns are the police forces. Nearly 250000 people. I am not sure if they have to see a GP every year but About a 100 of them commit suicide every year and a good proportion with their service handgun. 

In the general public mind ,you d think police forces should be composed of strong minded people, that you can trust for having a gun . But helas, even in this group it is hard to predict who has personal problems and can blow up a fuse and take their own life.

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## 7mmsaum

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## kotuku

> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


  In hindsight :Pacman:  no ifs but a lotta but

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## kawekakid

LOL   you must admitted most of you are crazy on here .you love firearms that others don't  ,you want to kill wild animals for not reason, you shoot at targets to prove you can hit them . you lay in the lounge rubbing you rifle with a rag dreaming of what you are going to shoot next .You spend large amounts of money to have the best toys and gear . you plan your next trips before you have already had your first trip .You sight your rifle in but cant hit the target so you sell it to buy something that does  i sit and wait to pick up the deals from shops where rifles have been returned because they don't shoot well . Thank you for your           misfortune  .

On the otherside i have been through a lot of  over the last 18 months. i was  picked up by police, had time in jail  due to false statements by x . I  had my firearms taken and returned . Never did i ever think of using firearms to hurt people even under the stress i have been through .Depression effect every body at some stage ,but if you have it i am one person who will find where it has come from . i spend time doing a back ground check on your life right back as far as i can . 95% of the time, depression comes from your family back ground and family can be to blame

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## 7mmsaum

Kawekakid

us hunters are an incredibly kind bunch






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## Tentman

Much to think about here as firearms owners . . the guts of our system really is "we're all part of the system" and we all have a responsibility to all other firearms owners specifically and society in general to act if we think someone may harm another person with (or without for that matter) a firearm.

Having come across one violent death involving a firearm (that I couldn't have done anything about) it certainly sharpened up my awareness and determination to act should any similar situation present itself.

The mention of the French system is very interesting, with a relatively high number of firearms and firearms owners, their level of firearms incidents (suicides/murders etc as opposed to terrorism) is low (as I understand it) compared to the US and many other countries.  The US really is not a firearms problem as such, its societal and goes very much along the lines of "I have a problem, power/force/violence is the way to solve problems"..  The French are proactive in terms of mental health/anti-societal issues at both a police and civilian level.

The guts of it is that we all need to be alert of those among us with firearms who are not well or in a bad situation and as Mikee did, take some action.  There will almost certainly never be the "right thing to do" so ones popularity is always going to be at stake.

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## steven

> If your (a) who I think you are, and (b) it's the farcebook group I'm thinking off-I wondered why your name had gone gray


Yes well, there are some good ppl in there but also some not so great.  In effect I am a "libtard" who loves guns, odd I suppose.    I just got/get a bit tired taking it from libtards and then the libtard haters, neither are logical or balanced IMHO.

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## steven

@Tentman "The French are proactive in terms of mental health/anti-societal issues at both a police and civilian level."  so is NZ (police) I think, ie despite our overly "lax" gun laws we have low incidents of homicide etc and they are getting lower at or exceeding the drops achieved by say OZ who have stricter laws.  Ergo its not hard to conclude that really the argument is not about gun laws but how the issues leading to such incidents are prevented.    From what I can read the NZ police have the right idea.

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## res

> Yes well, there are some good ppl in there but also some not so great.  In effect I am a "libtard" who loves guns, odd I suppose.    I just got/get a bit tired taking it from libtards and then the libtard haters, neither are logical or balanced IMHO.


I understand completely

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## kotuku

well gents -yesterday i had to attend the funeral of a bloke in our nursing team ,a fellow mental health professional. who a week ago after a prolonged period of god knows what ,stepped into a caravan and put a bullet through his own head. g was an avid firearms owner and user, a good nurse and a decent bloke ,but life the old bitch got on top of him untilat some moment he decided that was it .finito.
  My point-quite a few of us have been mulling this over and even we as mental health professionals-highly bloody trained at that-had no inkling of his intentions-some thought him maybe a little quiet ,but we knew he had some issues but was sorting these. not until yesterday was the full tragic scenario revealed which led to his utterly pragmatic solution.Oh yes he planned this to the nth detail and left his sister a will which explicitly instructed her on how to deal with the aftermath.
 take it from me -no anti, politician or policeman  will ever come up with the so called solution to this perceived firearms problems whilst human arses point to the ground,cause as sure as christ made little apples if one invents a set of rules .the next bastard along will find the loopholes.
 as for main stream media -social conscience -theyve none ,they are whores at the altar of ratings!

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## Sidney

Thats not good...

Tell me, why do people shoot themselves when they could park up in a car with a hose in the window... do you think...?  A fella like this who has planned to the ninth degree doesn't consider the traumatic effort of shooting himself on other people?

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## kidmac42

Gassing yourself takes time. Time in which you can chicken out. A bullet takes half a second and there is usually no backing out once the trigger is pulled.

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## Sidney

Yep that might be true for some... I guess...  Being a hunter though, I think I would prefer the gas...

Doubly horrible for those finding them though

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## kidmac42

No suicide is pretty mate. Even car exhaust is ugly to come across.

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## Maca49

Lot of pissing round to gas yourself and you have time to think as your sucking up the shit? Bullet is over, hopefully, once you pull the trigger, I believe there is a way to do it with the correct barrel placement of a .22 that is instant death and doesn't disfigure the face or eye balls. Had a mate a few yes did it he was in an open casket with no damage. I prefer BIG red buses myself. It's sad but you must be in a dark space to kill yourself, problem it is a temporary space normally, I'm sure my mate had plenty to live for he just didn't open up a talk about it! And showed no outward signs, I felt very angry with him for what he did, sorry for him but not a lot of sympathy, taught me to tell those you love your probs, keep it open and assess changes in those around you,

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## R93

I know a few people that have taken or attempted to take their own lives. I used to think they were weak. Having worked a lot lately with people with mental health expertise I am now pretty sure if they are otherwise healthy, they are genuinely sick at the time they decide to do it.

I also always thought that people who are terminal and want to end things have courage.

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## Sidney

I've seen plenty...  and I agree that people must be sick/desolate when they do this.

It can be flippant to just say, we need to be open about stuff.... pride and shame, expectations and even occupational requirements often conspire against those who would like to be, or might know that they need to be...

Try being a pilot and admitting depression aye..  or not wanting to lose your firearms license...   the thought of those sort of losses isn't going to help with the issues

Its hard to know how to realistically bridge these gaps with people....  heck I don't even know how to do that for myself... how am I going to know how to identify and help another individuals private trauma?

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## kotuku

gents as i said -I dont know .with 40+yrs in the mental health field
 yes Im taught all the so called risk factors ,how to collate &assess that information,but ever elusive is that single trigger factor.
Me I subscribe to the theory that often suicide is an impulsive spur of the moment,a readily available escape from the maelstrom one is in ,an instant nirvana etc etc entirely selfcentred as one inevitably is. 
Alas the reality of modern society is ugly -most are simply too immersed in their own issues and keeping heads above water ,without taking someone elses burdens on board.
Alas often as nurses we are so immersed in others burdens its often too late to get to our own before the shit hits the fan.In fact anyone dealing with humans in adversity probably shares this same trait.
 In this case and in my direct experience this is only the second suicide ive ever seen that was 100%coldly preplanned.
 Furthermore with this pro euthanasia debate currently to the fore I sense it may also see a rise in these sorts of actions.
Myself honestly -Id be a bloody fool to deny I ve been privy to a few over the years ,buts thats a professional issue for me to deal with and it will remain that way.
Oh yeas ,whilst im about it -drug overdose is the most popular modus operandi ,very effective if rescuers have no idea of whats taken and how much.  Paracetomol -jees that made me laugh -i was was taught what constituted a lethal dose as a strudent nurse in 1972. 
Weedkillers&industrial chemicals are also more popular than most realise.
  Creativity .before Gs episode my last involved a guy who knotted his socks together made a noose knotted one end and jammed it in his close room door before stepping off his wee plastic rubbish tin.we didnt find him till we opened his door and he fell out dead.Oh 15 mins before Id had a yarn with him in passing -happy as larry ,no probs. what snapped -you tell me ,cause I still dont know.
 OK so where from here ?well you see we all are possessed of personality -its the way we function each individually .its gets us trust ,driving licenses ,firearms licenses ....etc etc etc 
as society says well he or she seems competent to do this. likeable sensible ,a trustworthy member of the group
 oops for one fleeting moment something clicks in the "trustworthy" and whoa devastation ensues tragedy ,carnage ,and society says someone or something must pay the price.
?????/-does making even more rules combat the situation or does it merely make the so called responsible ones feel smug via" there we know it all?????"

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## Maca49

The one thing here in this thread is we are basically all thinking down the same track, we all have a lack of time, always to busy, always wanting some time to ourselves, and dont want other peoples burdens The funny thing is I dont want to retire out of the race at 66, yet I know heaps of people that at 65 have hung up their gloves an taken the backseat, was thinking my old man at 66 had been retired for 8 yrs. I think my family is my driving force and im lucky with my set up. It will be interesting when the last one finally gets their shit together and can stand strongly on their own two feet in a couple of months if that sense of being a backstop can cease and Ill be free of those thoughts. It may change my attitude to slowing down. But I think a bit of stress and hard work is good for the mind and body and I like my toys, and death in any form would be a bastard inconvenience!! :O O:

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## Woody

I recently saw a quote written by an isolated man, almost a hermit, who knew he was about to die alone. He wrote; "happiness is sharing".

So much sadness is caused by isolation of people, associates, relatives, or even friends by persons afraid of recognising and accepting the other persons right to a point of view, their feelings and their right to live a little outside the dictates of perceived political correctness and then actually encouraging others to isolate or not have close associations with that poor person.

The manipulators of society feed on this trait. They break some people and cause others to retrench, retreat and hide. It may be true that social media like farcebook  et al are more lethal than firearms.

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## Maca49

> I recently saw a quote written by an isolated man, almost a hermit, who knew he was about to die alone. He wrote; "happiness is sharing".
> 
> So much sadness is caused by isolation of people, associates, relatives, or even friends by persons afraid of recognising and accepting the other persons right to a point of view, their feelings and their right to live a little outside the dictates of perceived political correctness and then actually encouraging others to isolate or not have close associations with that poor person.
> 
> The manipulators of society feed on this trait. They break some people and cause others to retrench, retreat and hide. It may be true that social media like farcebook  et al are more lethal than firearms.


So we're not going away together later in the month? :Grin:

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## kidmac42

On a brighter note,  the mate I'm spending time with who was on a dark road is surely feeling better and brighter, and is even going to counselling to help himself along. Non judgement on my part may have helped a little too maybe. I'm just glad he's doing better and hoping the worst is over.

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## Woody

Your not a manipulator of society MACA49; yur  just a layer of smoke   :Wink: 

6.5's don't make much though, do they.  nah; all good mate.

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## Maca49

> On a brighter note,  the mate I'm spending time with who was on a dark road is surely feeling better and brighter, and is even going to counselling to help himself along. Non judgement on my part may have helped a little too maybe. I'm just glad he's doing better and hoping the worst is over.


There's light at the end of the tunnel, it's just you think you will never be "normal" again, good you are supporting, it can be a taxing job! :Cool:

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## Maca49

> Your not a manipulator of society MACA49; yur  just a layer of smoke  
> 
> 6.5's don't make much though, do they.  nah; all good mate.


Your right Woody, a few hours in the car with you will be therapeutic! Looking forward to it :Thumbsup:

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## kotuku

> I recently saw a quote written by an isolated man, almost a hermit, who knew he was about to die alone. He wrote; "happiness is sharing".
> 
> So much sadness is caused by isolation of people, associates, relatives, or even friends by persons afraid of recognising and accepting the other persons right to a point of view, their feelings and their right to live a little outside the dictates of perceived political correctness and then actually encouraging others to isolate or not have close associations with that poor person.
> 
> The manipulators of society feed on this trait. They break some people and cause others to retrench, retreat and hide. It may be true that social media like farcebook  et al are more lethal than firearms.


 your last paragraph is spot on in regard to many suicides amongst the adolescent age group woody, aint that the bloody truth.

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## Woody

Yes. I find it very sad. Kids are coming out of school having not been taught that in the real world there are winners and losers, and it is really really important to try to be a winner. NZ did not win the rugby world cup by simple "participation".  I see many kids, including some close, who at 18 plus, have no idea what to do with their life, and are totally confused about what PC is and whether it is important as the authorities that have dominated them for so many years actually make out. In the meantime the authorities just create more and more restrictions and "rules". It is no wonder peoples attention span gets shattered. Short attention span plus distraction gets people hurt or killed.
Interestingly, I just made a comment to some other associates who are discussing firearms accidents. Compare the number of firearms accidents amongst deerhunters, where for most game is hard to access and hard to succeed in bagging; --with accidents involving pig hunters, where risks should be higher, but the activity is much more social, and the game more accessible and plentiful with a greater chance of success but few firearms fatalities!  Pig hunting today probably allows for more mentoring of youngsters , with more positive successes, than deer hunting, where the difficulty for a young person to succeed and be mentored on a regular basis is much less likely. A possible solution may be for more deer populations to be deliberately managed in higher numbers in accessible recreational hunting forest parks than is presently the case. DoC and TB Free and their poisons should be kicked to hell and gone away from recreational hunting areas and forest parks, while at the same time, better access including 4wd bike trails, helipads, roads and camp sites should be constructed to foster hunting opportunities and success rates. I feel these moves would encourage more regular mentoring of young people and increase participation and integration with their older associates to the benefit of both; and hopefully a reduction of deer hunter shooting accidents.

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## Rushy

That is very well considered Woody.

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## Friwi

Did you guys hear on the radio yesterday that the police in nz was attending about a100 incidents a day related to mental health issues?
That is definitely more concerning than the couple of guns issues of the last few weeks.
But if we were suggesting to register all those people with mental health issues, we would probably be qualified of nazi by the media?

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## Woody

One wonders about the mental health of the media at times eh.

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