# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  NEW MSSA law ..?.......

## Survy

Ok I have gotten a few emails and a text re new firearm laws to take effect December 2013
Especially re police having the say over what is MSSA ?

Anyone got info on this ?

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## The Jackel

would be good to know what the "rules" are for the new definition of MSSA.

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## Ryan

The people who should have the info, namely the Police, aren't exactly forthcoming with the details. There are numerous threads on this forum that discuss this topic.

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...irements-8078/

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...district-7985/

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...-cat-cat-7001/

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...-changes-6441/

To name a few...

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## R93

No. But that sucks. Thats back around the moleberry bush FFS, aint it?

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## Happy

Yeehhaaaaaaa here we go round the Mulberry bush again , again, againio  .....
I'm just being patient.. patient that is of course... Be good to finally see what's the new laws or exactly what the requirements are 
and they surely cant expect compliance if there's differences depending where you live and how someone interprets things next to someone or someplace else.
Unless of course its real easy here then of course I'm happy as ... Hi ho Hi Ho its off to work we go !!!!

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## Beavis

So far:

No transitional provisions

No indication of what they have in mind

Need to define what a pistol grip exactly is before moving forward (They are meeting with an "arms advisory forum" comprised of COLFO, NZDA etc to help decide this)

Need to figure out what to do with all the guns that will become MSSA's, may have decided but aren't telling us.

All kinds of rumors flying around, nothing concrete. 

You know as much as I do.

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## Beavis

I guess the level of compliance will depend on how reasonable (or unreasonable) the regulations are.

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## Survy

Hmmmm the email I got dont know if its rumour or not it stated police will have the say of what is MSSA, not the law.
Was ther so etching in parliament passed today re this ?
Waiting til December I guess.

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## Beavis

Yea it's law. The police can't decide what is an isn't an MSSA, but in reality the tail wags the dog.

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## Kscott

> Ok I have gotten a few emails and a text re new firearm laws to take effect December 2013
> Especially re police having the say over what is MSSA ?


Who is sending you these emails and txt's ?

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## ebf

Well based on 74A, an MSSA is whatever the GG lists as one in an order, and the GG will take advice from the minister, who in turn takes advice from the Police...

So I think you'll find the police have a list  :Wink: 

If you think they are trying to play hardball, keep pushing, and well talk again when they declare any semi rifle or shotgun restricted, as is the case in Aus and SA

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## Ryan

> ... If you think they are trying to play hardball, keep pushing, and well talk again when they declare any semi rifle or shotgun restricted, as is the case in Aus and SA


And one just has to look at the amount of crime committed with AKs /R4 / R5 in SA to see just how (in)effective the law is...

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## mikee

Any changes will be what they will be, not point in getting you panties in a bunch in the mean time,

Best case things would stay as they are, worst case (for me) means I will have 3 new E cats and have to swap my brother his money  back again for the one I built him if he doesn't want to get his E

If I get too fed up I might just sell the lot and buy one of Kiwi Gregs suber duper extra long range rock stuffers instead.

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## Kiwi Greg

> Any changes will be what they will be, not point in getting you panties in a bunch in the mean time,
> 
> Best case things would stay as they are, worst case (for me) means I will have 3 new E cats and have to swap my brother his money  back again for the one I built him if he doesn't want to get his E
> 
> If I get too fed up I might just sell the lot and buy one of Kiwi Gregs suber duper extra long range rock stuffers instead.


It will be what it will be......

You know you want a big super duper extra long range rock stuffer as well  :Have A Nice Day: 

There is a couple of my shorter range ones on TM at the moment  :Wink:

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## mikee

> It will be what it will be......
> 
> You know you want a big super duper extra long range rock stuffer as well 
> 
> There is a couple of my shorter range ones on TM at the moment


yeah but my new scope sorta stuffered my wallet for a while!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! quite a big while

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## ebf

> Ok I have gotten a few emails and a text re new firearm laws to take effect December 2013
> Especially re police having the say over what is MSSA ?


Survy, copy and paste the email/txt so we can get some context...

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## hanse

In the july aug NZ guns and hunting, Nicholas taylor the firearms law specialist gives a fairly good briefing on what to expect. I was meaning to put it up last week but I am make you sick, what am I doing, fuck this, busy at the moment, so will endeavour to post the write up later in the week. Gist of it is, gun council formed from police and firearm specialists (just hope there is some decent reps on that) makes the rules. Any feature of any firearm can be deemed mssa, for example the colour black. Any part can be deemed a pistol grip and any make and model can be deemed a mssa, for example a mini 14 or 10/22. 

Id say those long range rigs in a tactical chassis will be in trouble too, pretty much we are all going to need our e cats.  

Everyone is worried that it is going to affect all the a cat ar's around, I would say that is barely the half of it.
Maybe time to wake up bolt rifle boys, your next on the list for a ten seven fist

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## Savage1

> In the july aug NZ guns and hunting, Nicholas taylor the firearms law specialist gives a fairly good briefing on what to expect. I was meaning to put it up last week but I am make you sick, what am I doing, fuck this, busy at the moment, so will endeavour to post the write up later in the week. Gist of it is, gun council formed from police and firearm specialists (just hope there is some decent reps on that) makes the rules. Any feature of any firearm can be deemed mssa, for example the colour black. Any part can be deemed a pistol grip and any make and model can be deemed a mssa, for example a mini 14 or 10/22. 
> 
> Id say those long range rigs in a tactical chassis will be in trouble too, pretty much we are all going to need our e cats.  
> 
> Everyone is worried that it is going to affect all the a cat ar's around, I would say that is barely the half of it.
> Maybe time to wake up bolt rifle boys, your next on the list for a ten seven fist


Bolt actions won't be affected by the new act, I suggest you read it before scaremongering.

Arms (Military Style Semi-automatic Firearms and Import Controls) Amendment Act 2012 No 117, Public Act Contents &ndash; New Zealand Legislation

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## hanse

> Bolt actions won't be affected by the new act, I suggest you read it before scaremongering.
> 
> Arms (Military Style Semi-automatic Firearms and Import Controls) Amendment Act 2012 No 117, Public Act Contents  New Zealand Legislation


Haha semi's first, bolts next. I don't think its scaremongering when posted on a firearms and hunting forum like this. That is all I was trying to say, that the bolt boys may want to think before saying " Ohh that doesn't affect me, its only about semi's.

Given the latest media scare about heaven forbid, "silenced high powered weapons" - (maybe scaremongering?)  :ORLY:   Read as Gun Shity suppressed 7mm08 T3s, I do feel it is only time before the once sacred, long range bolt brigade, get some police/leglislative attention.

I have re read my first post and need to edit it to say that it only affects semi autos. I am not however, reading the entire legislation, I will happily leave that up to a lawyer to summarise for me as in the article in NZG&H.

I am all for a lot of what is about to become law, especially the getting rid of those ridiculous easy to get, look like a real steel, paintball/air guns. Who gets the bad rep when some dumbass points one at the Police and then gets shot?? Not Dumbasses, but the genuine shooting community! I just think that the wrong end of the stick has been grabbed on a few points and I am sure we will get to discuss them all in full at a later date,  :Thumbsup:

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## ebf

> I am not however, reading the entire legislation, I will happily leave that up to a lawyer to summarise for me as in the article in NZG&H.


And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why politicians get away with writing crappy laws and lawyers smile all the way to the bank....

Hanse, can you find me ONE statement by the NZ Police or a government official that has even hinted at the fact that they are interested in bolt action firearms ?

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## marky123

Registration
Regulation
Restriction

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## scaggly

> And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why politicians get away with writing crappy laws and lawyers smile all the way to the bank....
> 
> Hanse, can you find me ONE statement by the NZ Police or a government official that has even hinted at the fact that they are interested in bolt action firearms ?


Ummm....  You might not have realised this, but if you were to go back to the original Bill that Police introduced for the latest changes, the wording in that did actually give the ability to classify bolt action firearms as MSSAs.  It was only as a result of the submissions in the select committee process that it was changed so that bolt guns weren't able to be declared MSSA.

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## ebf

> Ummm....  You might not have realised this, but if you were to go back to the original Bill that Police introduced for the latest changes, the wording in that did actually give the ability to classify bolt action firearms as MSSAs.  It was only as a result of the submissions in the select committee process that it was changed so that bolt guns weren't able to be declared MSSA.


Which version and clause Scagly ?

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## scaggly

Arms (Military Style Semi-automatic Firearms and Import Controls) Amendment Bill 285-1 (2011), Government Bill Contents &ndash; New Zealand Legislation

clause 4. interpretation.

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## Littledog

> Ummm....  You might not have realised this, but if you were to go back to the original Bill that Police introduced for the latest changes, the wording in that did actually give the ability to classify bolt action firearms as MSSAs.  It was only as a result of the submissions in the select committee process that it was changed so that bolt guns weren't able to be declared MSSA.


This is true, originally the Police did try to put through the ability to classify any firearm a MSSA. Thanks to a few who stood up to this and reasoned with the select committee this was changed back to semi only. One of the main contributors in getting the original wording changed was the NSA. 
Imagine the uproar if bolties required an E cat!

I find it very amusing that a bolt action could ever be considered a Military Style SEMI Automatic by our Police Force.

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## ebf

4 1 (a) ? I kinda though semi-automatic in bold right above it was pretty clear  :Grin:

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## Friwi

Yep, that is exactly what happened in France:in 1992 ( semi auto became restricted) and registration became compulsory then 1997 ( single shot 22 pistols and pump shotguns became restricted) and then anything that looks like an assault weapon or a military style weapon became restricted.Meanwhile the arsenals of Yougoslavia during the bosniac war got emptied and thousands of Kalashnikovs , grenades and rpgs and millions of ammo started to invade the European black market and ending up in the hands of criminals!
France is expecting its new act in September where military calibers in bolt action rifles will become unrestricted at last after 74years!( that law at been illigaly voted just before the Second World War when the power was weak and there was fear of having the anarchists raiding the national arsenals!). 50 bmg, 7,62x39 and 5.56(223) will still be subjected to restrictions.
But again the new act in France give the option to the local police to decide what can or can not be restricted . And we are not talking pistol grip here, they are introducing the notion of Dangerosity! How do you define the Dangerosity of something that can kill any way?!

Friwi.

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## ebf

If it is painted matt black the "dangerosity" level is very high  :Wink:

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## scaggly

I guess you don't do much legislative work huh? 

The clause structure would have enabled any 'firearm' to be classified as an mssa under 4(1)(b),(c), or (d).  No semi-auto requirement anywhere for that.

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## Toby

mssa=Military-style semi-automatic

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## scaggly

> mssa=Military-style semi-automatic


Not when you're writing a law it doesn't.  The thing that matters most in this particular case is the interpretation section.  IF that section defines an MSSA as any firearm the police don't like, then an MSSA is any firearm the police don't like.  Logic doesn't come into it, nor does common sense.  Hence why you can get screwed right royally for technically breaking laws, but in practice not doing much to warrant it.

In the original case I'm talking about, that is exactly what would have happened. Any rifle, or shotgun, even single shots could have been classified as an MSSA.

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## Toby

So we have people in charge of what we can and cant use and they can't even title it right. Sounds legit as

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## scaggly

> So we have people in charge of what we can and cant use and they can't even title it right. Sounds legit as


Welcome to the public service.....

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## gimp

Black is soooo 90's

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## Barefoot

Everyone knows that pink is the new black.
With new and improved dangerosity

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## Savage1

What people either don't see or prefer to ignore is that it was in the submission that may to future proof the bill. Already the NSA is coming up with stupid ideas such as the last bullet not being automatically loaded to circumvent the interpretation of "semi-automatic" in the bill. It mean't that they could have covered future issues such as caseless ammo.

People jump up and down saying they're targeting bolt guns etc with no evidence. They were doing the smart thing trying to plug future holes in the bill and avoid numerous court cases over interpretation in wording. This is how the lawyers are going to make their money while tying up police and court time.

The power for the GG to make changes to the definitions have always been there in the original Arms Act, just the wording wasn't so specific, so nothing has really changed in that aspect.

Hanse, your original post showed some serious flaws in it, which was why I suggested that you read the actual legislation, it's not that long and is better than getting a heavily biased opinion of it.

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## ebf

Agreed, now we have the term "semi-automatic", but that term is not explicitly defined. They tried in version 1, but that got shot down pretty quick.

And this is where it gets stupid, because you will get someone arguing what a semi is and is not...  :Wtfsmilie: 

Plus you get deliberately provocative statements such as "_Our expert firearms engineers are currently working on adaptations for AK / AR variant firearms. These modifications will prevent the last round loaded from chambering and discharging. Firearms modified in this way will no longer legally qualify as semi-automatic under the amended Arms Act._ " 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't  :Psmiley:

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## scaggly

> Agreed, now we have the term "semi-automatic", but that term is not explicitly defined. They tried in version 1, but that got shot down pretty quick.
> 
> And this is where it gets stupid, because you will get someone arguing what a semi is and is not...


Dude. WTF are you talking about?   :36 1 5: 

Semi-auto is explicitly defined in the new provisions.  Anyone with a basic understanding of what they're talking about can see that by reading the Act. 

One thing that is obvious from this and other legal threads is that pretty much no-one understands the first thing about how legislation works or how to interpret it.

Some might whinge about how it is defined, but it most definitely defined.  

As for other comments in this thread about people testing what the law means. Welcome to the real world.  This is why you don't legislate just for the lulz.  Every law change creates unintended consequences, new provisions get tested through the courts, particularly where you're messing with people who have the collective resources to take the government to court. The courts don't always side with the agency that came up with the original provisions.

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## Beavis

> Dude. WTF are you talking about?  
> 
> Semi-auto is explicitly defined in the new provisions.  Anyone with a basic understanding of what they're talking about can see that by reading the Act. 
> 
> One thing that is obvious from this and other legal threads is that pretty much no-one understands the first thing about how legislation works or how to interpret it.
> 
> Some might whinge about how it is defined, but it most definitely defined.  
> 
> As for other comments in this thread about people testing what the law means. Welcome to the real world.  This is why you don't legislate just for the lulz.  Every law change creates unintended consequences, new provisions get tested through the courts, particularly where you're messing with people who have the collective resources to take the government to court. The courts don't always side with the agency that came up with the original provisions.


Well said. At the end of the day, the courts will decide what exactly "semi auto" means as defined in the act.

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## Littledog

I guess if the Police had not started this all off with the illegal "butts" fiasco then we would all be abiding by their illegal pre "Butts" interpretation and they and us would all be happy and none the wiser. The Police have gone on record stating they wish to now return to the pre "Butts" interpretation. So we will have to wait and see if they are stating the truth.
If this statement is correct and they do infact wish to return to pre "butts" then the past 2 yrs has been a total and utter waste of time and money and someone in PHQ needs a rocket up there jacksee, as all this ammendment has done is to alleinate a high number of law abiding shooters and cause distrust towards the NZ Police in the eyes of alot of shooters. 

Sensible laws would be meet by sensible responses. Aboslute nonsense laws well-they deserve the response they get.

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## ebf

> Semi-auto is explicitly defined in the new provisions.


Scagly, my mistake, your are correct sir   :Have A Nice Day:

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## GravelBen

> Arms (Military Style Semi-automatic Firearms and Import Controls) Amendment Bill 285-1 (2011), Government Bill Contents  New Zealand Legislation
> 
> clause 4. interpretation.


So a semi 22WMR is allowed to hold 15, but a semi 17HMR can only hold 7.  :ORLY:

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## Littledog

> So a semi 22WMR is allowed to hold 15, but a semi 17HMR can only hold 7.


No the .17hmr can hold 15 as it is "rimfire of .22 inch or less" as defined in the ammendment. I think the "Less" was ammended more recently than the original wording as I remember hearing someone else mention it when the wording was different.

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## GravelBen

Whoops, missed the 'or less'. Thats what I get for trying to be a smartass.

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## scaggly

> So a semi 22WMR is allowed to hold 15, but a semi 17HMR can only hold 7.


You're looking at the wrong version.  If you want to know what the final interpretation section defines a semi as, then go look at the version that was enacted.

Arms (Military Style Semi-automatic Firearms and Import Controls) Amendment Act 2012 No 117, Public Act Contents &ndash; New Zealand Legislation

Edit. And yes, under the final wording, it does look a lot like .17 rimfire can only have a max of 7 rounds in a semi.

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## Littledog

> You're looking at the wrong version.  If you want to know what the final interpretation section defines a semi as, then go look at the version that was enacted.
> 
> Arms (Military Style Semi-automatic Firearms and Import Controls) Amendment Act 2012 No 117, Public Act Contents &ndash; New Zealand Legislation
> 
> Edit. And yes, under the final wording, it does look a lot like .17 rimfire can only have a max of 7 rounds in a semi.


Yes GB looks like you are correct. The Act only states .22 rimfire. The smaller rimfire round is lumped with centrefire. Crazy laws that do nothing for safety.

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## Beavis

Yip - gonna be a  a few .17HMR owners out there unwittingly in possession of MSSA's. Great law  :Thumbsup:  I'm glad they put so much thought into it.

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## Beavis

It was also great to see they took on the advise of experienced shooters, our MP's expertise in all things firearms was duly noted during the second and third readings. Was great to see they knew what they were talking about.

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## Survy

I have a nosey at the 3rd reading, almost fell asleep wish I had the audio version, I can see some MP gunning for increased amendments mind the pun, and then you read MP Prosser, and say yeah, don't punish the legit users because of idiots out there.

Guess we will have to see what happens later this year, I will sit on ye picket fence with my Marlin 917VR pondering the future.

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## GravelBen

> Yip - gonna be a  a few .17HMR owners out there unwittingly in possession of MSSA's. Great law  I'm glad they put so much thought into it.


I don't actually know of any 22WMRs or HMRs with bigger mags from factory off the top of my head, usually they're 5 or 7. Who makes semi-auto HMRs anyway? Can't be many around. Bolt actions can still have mags as big as you like if I'm reading it right.

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## Beavis

> I don't actually know of any 22WMRs or HMRs with bigger mags from factory off the top of my head, usually they're 5 or 7. Who makes semi-auto HMRs anyway? Can't be many around. Bolt actions can still have mags as big as you like if I'm reading it right.


Magnum Research, Excel Arms, Ruger, Marlin. Not all that common but they are out there. It is still a stupid omission.

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## hanse

> What people either don't see or prefer to ignore is that it was in the submission that may to future proof the bill. Already the NSA is coming up with stupid ideas such as the last bullet not being automatically loaded to circumvent the interpretation of "semi-automatic" in the bill. It mean't that they could have covered future issues such as caseless ammo.
> 
> 
> 
> People jump up and down saying they're targeting bolt guns etc with no evidence. They were doing the smart thing trying to plug future holes in the bill and avoid numerous court cases over interpretation in wording. This is how the lawyers are going to make their money while tying up police and court time.
> 
> The power for the GG to make changes to the definitions have always been there in the original Arms Act, just the wording wasn't so specific, so nothing has really changed in that aspect.
> 
> Hanse, your original post showed some serious flaws in it, which was why I suggested that you read the actual legislation, it's not that long and is better than getting a heavily biased opinion of it.


I think most of this post is bollocks, it barely makes sense.  Caseless ammo is hardly a serious, near future issue in NZ, or even the world bro, more an ideal solution to soldiers carrying too much useless case. Try gangs or separatist groups with illegal guns or unlicensed weirdos getting kit with big mags or belt feed, if you are looking for issues.

As for people trying to get around the law, a few common sense judges with a pair of nuts each will easily get around that by making good common sense rulings and setting a precedent. Worrying about people changing a semi to get around the law is bullshit, everyone knows what a semi is.

My first post was flawed in that I didn't say that the bill only affected semi's. I knew this but had failed to state it so addressed it in my very next post. I also read the legislation this morning before work. It doesn't change my first post. The ammendment is pretty much exactly as Nicholas Taylor summarised it in NZG&H, funny that with him being paid to do that sort of thing. 

The statement I made about bolt guns being next on the list, NEXT on the list,  had nil to do with the said legislation, more of a warning for what future laws or amendments may bring. 

Thanks for pointing out the errors in my post, posts sometimes don't come out how they are meant.

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