# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  : Snipers vs. Competition Shooters

## el borracho

interesting observation

Shooting Skill: Snipers vs. Competition Shooters | Firearm User Network

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## Rushy

And quite understandable I would think.  El B a snipers intended target (note that I didn't say practise) is the human upper torso and that maintains the same physical dimension at 100 yards as it does at 1,000 yards so I would think snipers would spend much time shooting human shaped targets.  Whereas from what I have seen, a competition shooter engages targets of various sizes and could be shooting at a 3 inch target at three hundred yards and a 10 inch target at 1,000 yards both of which are much smaller than the human form.  In my opinion this alone would develop a higher aiming skill / capability in the competition shooter.

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## ishoot10s

It's even more discrediting to the snipers when you factor in that they are typically shooting off bags, bipods or fixed rests of some description. Sure, the HP shooter gets a jacket, glove and sling but is still shooting off his/her elbows, no part of the rifle is supported by anything other than the shooters own body.

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## GravelBen

Yep, quite interesting. That said, the military trained snipers probably maintain their standard better under pressure, in a hurry, when someone else is shooting back...

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## Barefoot

As at least one of the  comments below the article point out, its only comparing the actually shooting, not all the other aspects that go with sniper training.

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## Nibblet

This would be a good argument for opening up army ranges for public/competition use at least a few times a year. Be good free training for the people in service.

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## kiwijames

Do you think this will then dissuade the current obsession for tactical trinket based rifle necessities. 

The next fashion may be benchrestical  :ORLY:

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## el borracho

bottom line is in the US target shooters spend more time shooting than the snipers . That said I have wittnessed a top FCLASS shooter lose to some that shoot farm ranges more than target flagged ranges .do it all or or you will lose to one that has! Tactical shit rules , pencil barrels haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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## compound

> This would be a good argument for opening up army ranges for public/competition use at least a few times a year. Be good free training for the people in service.


And it is called the service rifle nationals, held in Waiouru.

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## Nibblet

> And it is called the service rifle nationals, held in Waiouru.


Cool thanks will have a look in to that.  Was thinking it would be nice to open up places like Army Bay range and the likes to the public occasionally. If they don't already.

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## Hunt4life

Where can we find out more about this Compound?

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## ishoot10s

> Where can we find out more about this Compound?


You're in the perfect spot to join ASRA since we shoot at Duders during the summer. You'll get all to info you need about the SR Nationals and any other SR matches. Auckland Service Rifle Assn

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## andyanimal31

Just join the taihape steer dorkers  as we go up every now and again for some range days. So far shot out to 600 and the next shoot hopefully out to 1000 next time.the local club just had our club shoot on steel out to 890 with a good turn out and some great shootingSMS


> Where can we find out more about this Compound?

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## 6MMBR

yeah interesting. but lying in your own piss in the snow or bull ants biteing your goosh desert ...then some goose saying that target and comp shooters are better.  cant compare the to. if you do your a dreamer.

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## Nibblet

> yeah interesting. but lying in your own piss in the snow or bull ants biteing your goosh desert ...then some goose saying that target and comp shooters are better.  cant compare the to. if you do your a dreamer.


Dead right. I still wouldn't fuck with a sniper.

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## el borracho

its such a misconception about snipers being great shots -they better intelligence gatherers that can and do hang out in all sorts of shit situations if needed  me thinks and very proficient shots .The way to become a better shot is to shoot all terrain -listen to others who may be better in different situations .I have shot a few contest and done ok but hit the big south island valleys and didnt -I need mountain practice  calling wind !!!

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## compound

ASRA or any of the other service rifle clubs will get you started. Needs lots of practice to be up in the top placings, as they say, practice more than everyone else for a better chance of beating them. I think the army team spent at least the whole week prior at the range and it showed in their scores.

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## 6MMBR

Only a week.HAHA The Army team started end of march to go to the service shoot in ozzy mid june.

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## Neckshot

the two groups in question are worlds apart and I don't even know why they would be compared IMO.target shooter's are just that.snipers arnt just targets shooters the shooting part makes up only a 3rd of what there about.

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## el borracho

> the two groups in question are worlds apart and I don't even know why they would be compared IMO.target shooter's are just that.snipers arnt just targets shooters the shooting part makes up only a 3rd of what there about.


10% Ive heard it said from a US sniper !

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## Neckshot

> 10% Ive heard it said from a US sniper !


so whats the point of them being compared then?.

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## BRADS

> so whats the point of them being compared then?.


Keep your pants on solider :Have A Nice Day: 
All the article said was they where similar in shooting ability.

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## hanse

> so whats the point of them being compared then?.


Think they were just seeing how often the best of the best missed so they could build some type of self aiming dohickey and accidentally showed that competitive shooters were better shots than Snipers

Doesn't really mean shit as both are experts in their chosen fields so there is really no competiton.

Be good to see a LR or HP guy belly crawl 2 km carrying their kit then take good shots haha

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## Neckshot

> Keep your pants on solider
> All the article said was they where similar in shooting ability.


Ah just get sick of this sort of shit really.im over it now :Grin:

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## Rushy

> Ah just get sick of this sort of shit really.im over it now


Forever green Neckshot. ONWARD

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## el borracho

> Ah just get sick of this sort of shit really.im over it now


it was an interesting insight and that's all , it also uncloaks the often mis held belief of super shooting ability .  Now as I mentioned before take a range shooter out of the range it "can" but not defiantly change their hit rate --add some pressure it surly would drop their hit rate more . All these factors recognized allow a shooter to practice differently to become a better shooter.

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## el borracho

> Ah just get sick of this sort of shit really.im over it now


what exactly do you get sick of Neckshot?

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## Dead is better

Snipers hunt men who are armed to the teeth and trained to kill, and are often dug in and hiding. Just like normal hunters, they only need to be accurate enough. Still, the long distance feats that we are all aware of in Iraq and Afghanistan demonstrate that they are expert marksmen in punishing environments. That is the clear distinction. 

Guess its like comparing drone pilots to real fighter pilots.

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## Nibblet

Would be a pretty interesting piece of kit. Bet the boys wanting to develop it were a bit pissed when the results came out.

"So as you can see here from our test results sir, we could spend millions developing some new equipment then millions more deploying it. OR.... we could just train our shooters better"

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## el borracho

> Snipers hunt men who are armed to the teeth and trained to kill, and are often dug in and hiding. Just like normal hunters, they only need to be accurate enough. Still, the long distance feats that we are all aware of in Iraq and Afghanistan demonstrate that they are expert marksmen in punishing environments. That is the clear distinction. 
> 
> Guess its like comparing drone pilots to real fighter pilots.


These examples are very few and t those ranges they have no return fire pressure -bullets travel longer also with less air density

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## andyanimal31

one thing i have learn't that some of the weapon systems snipers use with the ammo they are given ends up around 1 moa overall where as alot of the firearms sports shooters are using are rigs capable of 1/2 and better which is a consideration worth comparing.
when i ever start getting excited about my ability i have a good mate that will casually come along and make me realize i need more practice with skills i envy but will never get as not that keen in joining the army and becoming a moving target!

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## kimjon

When the US snipers took three consecutive head shots within 5 seconds at 800y on those ''pirates'' off West Africa a couple of years ago, from one rocking boat to another rocking boat...well that restored all my faith in the ability of (some) the US's top snipers.

But as already said, the skill sets are completely different. I'd say both Target shooters and snipers are head and shoulders above the rest of the general shooting population in accuracy, but then snipers have to be battle fit and be able to lug all of their gear around the hills, something a lot of the target shooters I've observed would struggle with - in fact most of them are puffing just walking from their car to the shooting mound  :Have A Nice Day: 

I guess this comparison could be used with pro hunters or cullers etc... just because they hunt for a living doesn't automatically make them a good shot with a rifle. A lot of the guys I've worked with were pretty average shots with a rifle at best, but they were still very good hunters.

kj

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## stug

> When the US snipers took three consecutive head shots within 5 seconds at 800y on those ''pirates'' off West Africa a couple of years ago, from one rocking boat to another rocking boat...well that restored all my faith in the ability of (some) the US's top snipers.
> 
> But as already said, the skill sets are completely different. I'd say both Target shooters and snipers are head and shoulders above the rest of the general shooting population in accuracy, but then snipers have to be battle fit and be able to lug all of their gear around the hills, something a lot of the target shooters I've observed would struggle with - in fact most of them are puffing just walking from their car to the shooting mound 
> 
> I guess this comparison could be used with pro hunters or cullers etc... just because they hunt for a living doesn't automatically make them a good shot with a rifle. A lot of the guys I've worked with were pretty average shots with a rifle at best, but they were still very good hunters.
> 
> kj


I thought it was actually only 30 metres, not 800.
From wikipedia 
U.S. Navy SEAL snipers, reportedly from the U.S. Naval Special Warfare Development Group,[25] on the Bainbridge's fantail opened fire and killed the three pirates remaining in the lifeboat with a simultaneous volley of three shots. The SEALs had arrived Friday afternoon after being parachuted into the water near the Halyburton, which later joined with the Bainbridge.[8] At the time, the Bainbridge had the lifeboat under tow, approximately 25 to 30 yards astern.[26]

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## gimp

Lol if you think this is relevant to anything or meaningful in any way

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## Beavis

> Lol if you think this is relevant to anything or meaningful in any way


This. Are they tryna say Snipers are shit compared to civvie shooters or what?

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## el borracho

> Lol if you think this is relevant to anything or meaningful in any way


its meaningful Gimp as it creates debate and knowledge about different sides of the fence - others have a keen interest in many aspects of the shooting art .

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## striker

> I thought it was actually only 30 metres, not 800.
> From wikipedia 
> U.S. Navy SEAL snipers, reportedly from the *U.S. Naval Special Warfare Development Group*,[25] on the Bainbridge's fantail opened fire and killed the three pirates remaining in the lifeboat with a simultaneous volley of three shots. The SEALs had arrived Friday afternoon after being parachuted into the water near the Halyburton, which later joined with the Bainbridge.[8] At the time, the Bainbridge had the lifeboat under tow, approximately 25 to 30 yards astern.[26]



Thats the big tip off there, DEVGRU aka Seal Team 6, if you go by how well trained they are- we are led to believe

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## el borracho

> one thing i have learn't that some of the weapon systems snipers use with the ammo they are given ends up around 1 moa overall where as alot of the firearms sports shooters are using are rigs capable of 1/2 and better which is a consideration worth comparing.
> when i ever start getting excited about my ability i have a good mate that will casually come along and make me realize i need more practice with skills i envy but will never get as not that keen in joining the army and becoming a moving target!


the Barret springs to mind , often said to be a 1-2 moa gun

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## kimjon

> I thought it was actually only 30 metres, not 800.
> From wikipedia 
> U.S. Navy SEAL snipers, reportedly from the U.S. Naval Special Warfare Development Group,[25] on the Bainbridge's fantail opened fire and killed the three pirates remaining in the lifeboat with a simultaneous volley of three shots. The SEALs had arrived Friday afternoon after being parachuted into the water near the Halyburton, which later joined with the Bainbridge.[8] At the time, the Bainbridge had the lifeboat under tow, approximately 25 to 30 yards astern.[26]


Wow pays to do your research eh. For some reason I recalled the distance as 800y - but it looks like I got that one completely wrong sorry.

kj

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## GravelBen

30yds, 800yds, close enough. Either is long range to a North Island bush hunter!  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## el borracho

mistakes , Chinese whispers and exaggerations are what many legends are made of

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## steven

> It's even more discrediting to the snipers when you factor in that they are typically shooting off bags, bipods or fixed rests of some description. Sure, the HP shooter gets a jacket, glove and sling but is still shooting off his/her elbows, no part of the rifle is supported by anything other than the shooters own body.


Not FTR, I use a bipod...

regards

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## ARdave

shoulda just put a plate sized gong up at 200 yards and give them all an air rifle. thatd sort the men from the boys haha

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## steven

similar for ammo, safety video

SAAMI - Sporting Ammunition and the Fire Fighter - YouTube

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## GravelBen

No wonder they have an ammo shortage if they do that with it!

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## Dangerous Dan

I'd like to see the avg. time for the best and worst of snipers vs. shooters on a 2.4km run ...

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## Dead is better

> These examples are very few and t those ranges they have no return fire pressure -bullets travel longer also with less air density


Dunno if its rare or common. The Yanks and Brits are the only ones who ever comment on their snipers - the rest of the world has more sense.
Rooftop Execution - NCIS report provides details of sniper deaths

The sad thing in that article was that one of the slain soldiers knew He had it coming. They constantly set up in the same spot, used the same routes etc. The urban environment is far more dangerous than any jungle I reckon. One kid with a cell phone and you're screwed. He'll even post it on youtube for ya, with aweful arab music too

Digressing from the thread tho - I still rate the snipers ability to hit moving targets and range find manually. Being able to wait all day in the sun wearing a ghillie-suit. walking back 50kms when you know they're pissed and are doing their best to kill you personally. Knowing what the enemy will do if they do find you. Being able to shoot straight and accurately under that kind of pressure makes a joke out of the 'pressure' us civies feel during a competition. That bit is chalk and cheese

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## R93

Pointless study, especially considering any fat prick can shoot targets and possibly achieve high honours. 
With a 1% pass rate in the  NZ Army and low pass rates throughout most Nato forces, not everyone can be a sniper. Shooting is at most 10% of the job. I bet no moving targets were shot in the test. 
I would have thought field firing in some testing conditions would be included to make the results accurate across the board.

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## el borracho

something few shooters do shoot movers at distance!! 2.4 run with kit -id get a bus!! remember these snipers are pretty young guys -early twenty's to mid one thinks so a healthy civvy who is active would compete with practice in the run  at least

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## Neckshot

still stroking your ego I see.well fuck a 2.5 run with kit.try full tack for two weeks covering in excess of 50km of ground on foot will staying undetected and actually completing your tasks.no???? to fucking hard??? but civis can use quads you say??.give me a break with this pussy shit fight, targets shooters are excellent target shooters.snipers train to kill and do it excellently!!!.

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## R93

Shame you were not around for the surprise battalion birthday Neckshot. One C.O bet the other that, his battalion could out walk the other. We all got to walk 134km in 36 hrs in FSMO to win a bet for the boss. I actually got/felt shitfaced on 1 can of beer after that wee jaunt. Never used to get blisters but I ended up with 18 between both feet.

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## Neckshot

> Shame you were not around for the surprise battalion birthday Neckshot. One C.O bet the other that, his battalion could out walk the other. We all got to walk 134km in 36 hrs in FSMO to win a bet for the boss. I actually got/felt shitfaced on 1 can of beer after that wee jaunt.


it definalty levels the shit talkers out and shuts them up.pitty the same cant happen on here.

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## el borracho

> still stroking your ego I see.well fuck a 2.5 run with kit.try full tack for two weeks covering in excess of 50km of ground on foot will staying undetected and actually completing your tasks.no???? to fucking hard??? but civis can use quads you say??.give me a break with this pussy shit fight, targets shooters are excellent target shooters.snipers train to kill and do it excellently!!!.


what are you reading neckshot?the thread isnt about athleticism but pure shooting ability although it has wandered .I dont think anyone's trying to steal your mojo either just bantering about shooting .

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## R93

I don't think Chris Kyle would have worried if he couldn't shoot v bulls all day. 
A movie coming out about him will no doubt confuse the differences between real soldiers and Hollywood fiction.

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## gimp

Purely better academic accuracy isn't the only factor to shooting ability, this is retarded

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## el borracho

hehe funny how this thread goes from an obvious observation to them and us . Kris Kyle rest his soul and well worthy of a movie. A large point about marksmanship in the article really is target shooter shoot shitloads snipers dont --pretty simple although it lacked in the reality of the extremes in  real pressure  versus target  and still versus moving

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## el borracho

> Purely better academic accuracy isn't the only factor to shooting ability, this is retarded


hehe your here posting Gimp

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## gimp

I'm here to call this retarded

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## gimp

> hehe funny how this thread goes from an obvious observation to them and us . Kris Kyle rest his soul and well worthy of a movie. A large point about marksmanship in the article really is target shooter shoot shitloads snipers dont --pretty simple although it lacked in the reality of the extremes in  real pressure  versus target  and still versus moving


I'm closer to a target shooter than a sniper and I think this is retarded because you can't draw any conclusions from a shitty 2 paragraph article about a meaningless bit of faux-trivia with no real data provided that doesn't take into account a hilarious number of variables

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## el borracho

the funny thing is the *retards* that tested this were --Project White Feather is a U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM)-sponsored effort to apply advanced sniper weapon fire control technology that will extend range and increase first round hit probability for special operations applications
but GIMP this is retarded

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## el borracho

one imagines they didnt fuck around while accessing things.Probably the bigger real point about this army test they were getting real about their shooting ability or lesser ability compared to the civvies they shot against . good on them as the honesty will see possible improvements in the skill levels

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## gimp

> the funny thing is the *retards* that tested this were --Project White Feather is a U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM)-sponsored effort to apply advanced sniper weapon fire control technology that will extend range and increase first round hit probability for special operations applications
> but GIMP this is retarded


Lol can you seriously not see why it's stupid to think you can draw any conclusions from that 2-paragraph "article" ??

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## gimp

> the funny thing is the *retards* that tested this were --Project White Feather is a U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM)-sponsored effort to apply advanced sniper weapon fire control technology that will extend range and increase first round hit probability for special operations applications
> but GIMP this is retarded


Lol can you seriously not see why it's stupid to think you can draw any conclusions from that 2-paragraph "article" ??

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## el borracho

> one imagines they didnt fuck around while accessing things.Probably the bigger real point about this army test they were getting real about their shooting ability or lesser ability compared to the civvies they shot against . good on them as the honesty will see possible improvements in the skill levels


this

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## gimp

Okay smartarse, since you obviously didn't actually read the paper it's talking about**:

1: it's estimated

2: it's sourced from a 1990 paper, which I haven't bothered to read yet so let me know if it has any profound revelations

3: read the key to the table, specifically (a) and (b) and think about the selection bias in (b)

4: drawing worthwhile conclusions from that terrible page you linked isn't possible

5: I'm going to bed, please read things



Table from the paper:

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## gimp

Also the conclusions you've drawn from the page you linked are pretty hilariously totally unrelated to what the paper is actually about so thanks for proving my point

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## el borracho

I dont know what your reading Gimp but ---According to their tests, the standard deviation of aiming error for the best, formally-trained operational snipers was three times worse than tested High Power and Long Range competition shooters sufficiently skilled to compete successfully in national level match competition at Camp Perry and the like. In fact, the worst competition shooters tested were as good or better than the best snipers in basic holding and shooting fundamentals.



Kraig Stuart
Aug 01, 2013 @ 15:14:18

Because I have a bit of experience in both sniping and competition I was asked my thoughts on this from a guy on another forum. As I said, I’m not surprised of the results. I’ve ran several sniper schools, the problem is once a person attends the school, they quit. I don’t mean totally, but they don’t practice their craft near to the point of a High Power shooter, both in practice and competition.

A high power shooter will practice several hours for each hour he spends in competition. You just don’t see that with snipers. I’ve had sniper students who “got hooked” and took up High Power, hitting me up for ammo and support ( I was also running the AK NG Marksmanship Unit as I was running sniper schools), Some, should I say most, I never heard of again unless they want to attend another course for “for a refresher”. The HP shooter/sniper didn’t need a refresher.

This only deals with the shooting aspect of sniping, not the observation/scouting aspect, but that too needs practice or its a lost art. I have guardsmen from urban areas and I had guardsmen from the Alaska Bush, mainly Alaska Natives who make their living off the land. Guess which one didn’t need refreshers in observation/scouting.

Kraig Stuart
Distinguished Rifle Badge #1071
USAMU Sniper School, Oct ’78

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## gimp

I'm reading the fucking paper the stupid page you linked is quoting, something you might benefit from doing instead of posting random quotes of comments some guy on the internet made on a shitty "article" that cherry-picks a bit of meaningless misinterpreted trivia from a paper about something entirely unrelated which actually completely ignores that piece of trivia in its own deliberations

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## gimp

In conclusion,




> 5: please read things

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## R93

> *one imagines* they didnt fuck around while accessing things.



Nuff said in your case as far as the military side of the equation goes. The whole motive is to sell a product to fix something that is not broken. It is the US forces we are talking about after all.
No corruption or hand-outs happen to ensure a big military deal goes through there. It would never happen. :Wink: 

The test is flawed and irrelevant in so many ways but you simply fail to acknowledge it. :36 1 7:  How would the results read if there were moving targets at 3,5 and 600? If being able to plug a v bull on a range ever overshadowed field craft and numerous other qualities, there will be a lot of dead, fat, tweed wearing cunts, covered in their own shooting mats on future battlefields :Grin:

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## gimp

R93: The point is there IS NO TEST


The page El B linked is a bullshit "article" totally misinterpreting a table in a study of something else, that the study actually decided wasn't important, and is sourced from a 1990 paper that estimated it (which I can't find online to read).

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## R93

> R93: The point is there IS NO TEST
> 
> 
> The page El B linked is a bullshit "article" totally misinterpreting a table in a study of something else, that the study actually decided wasn't important, and is sourced from a 1990 paper that estimated it (which I can't find online to read).




I know. I just cant help myself.

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## el borracho

what your talking of Gimp isnt obvious as there is no  hyper link to it --i found it but its 85pp -still some pertinent comment that back what im saying --practice more!ill look it over tomorrow

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## el borracho

page 16 it where this stuff comes from it appears --look it up by cut and paste 

weapon Fire Control Error Budget Analysis
Weapons & Materials Research Directorate, Army Research Laboratory
ARL-TR-2065

another interesting observation by the author on page 30

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## gimp

1: http://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/1999/ARL-TR-2065.pdf is the paper that retarded link is talking about
2: the authors of the paper ignored the table of ~*snipers vs competition shooter*~ for the purposes of their paper (Because it doesn't say what the retarded link says, and it's only estimated)
3: the paper is from 1999
4: the paper is about estimating how a fire control system could increase hit probability, there is no testing, and it focuses entirely on other variables than the shooter
5: fucking jesus christ next time just take my word for it that it's retarded

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## el borracho

are you suggesting Gimp you know more than these guys and they know shit? The special forces shoulda just called you for a savings of a few hundred thousand dollars  and you coulda put them right .

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## gimp

> are you suggesting Gimp you know more than these guys and they know shit? The special forces shoulda just called you for a savings of a few hundred thousand dollars  and you coulda put them right .


are you literally incapable of reading?

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## Bill999

Play nice children

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## ebf

oh gawd, 6 pages of wanabe forum "snipers" debating "special operations" stuff  :Sick: 

guys, if you really want to see who has the biggest winkie, just meet behind the boys toilet and whip em out ok

  :Psmiley:

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## gimp

My dick is probably tiny, it's been a while since I saw it because I'm so fat, but at least I can read.

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## R93

> My dick is probably tiny, it's been a while since I saw it because I'm so fat, but at least I can read.


Ha! I must be skinnier or have a bigger dick than you!! Even after putting on all my Gucci gear on.
I let it out and could see the tip!!!!

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## Toby

> Ha! I must be skinnier or have a bigger dick than you!! Even after putting on all my Gucci gear on.
> I let it out and could see the tip!!!!


You have a long neck, so that doesn't count

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## R93

True, and I may have sucked my gut in a little. :Grin:

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## el borracho

> oh gawd, 6 pages of wanabe forum "snipers" debating "special operations" stuff 
> 
> guys, if you really want to see who has the biggest winkie, just meet behind the boys toilet and whip em out ok
> 
> Attachment 13039


there you are EBF second from the left

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## el borracho

> are you literally incapable of reading?


I dont get ya Gimp -other than its way more pages than I want to read it is an analysis done for the Special operation unit and you think it shit --well Ok  :Thumbsup: doesnt alter the original point though -snipers shoot less than target shooters ...well in the US and hence their ability shoot first round hit at distance are less than a well rehearsed target shooter --no hard to comprehend in my view

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## R93

Why did you post this thread El b? Honestly? What bearing has it got on anything?

I am sure most serving soldiers would acknowledge that on average and in a one off comp the seasoned target shooter would have it over the unit trained sniper 9/10 times on a gazetted range, shooting F class or the like.
Military marksmen don't shoot V bulls. They are silhouette or 3 dimensional shooters. 95% of their targets are moving or snap. Any LR targets are/should be well thought out and only taken when there is a high % chance of hit.

Get yourself a head-shaped target, not modelled off yours as that would just be cheating. 
Draw a 100mm dia circle centred, from the tip of the nose.
Fix it to a long pole and get someone to operate it for you from the butts of an NRA range. 
Set yourself up at 300. Get the target op to give you 5 x 3 sec exposures in the center of your lane over 5 minutes. Then 5 x 3 sec exposures any height and anywhere in your lane across a 6m frontage over 5 minutes.

This was considered to be a gift serial at the start of a badge shoot. You get 5 points in the circle or cutting the line, 3 points outside but on the target.
Target is to spin and fall when hit. Target is to be snapped into and out of position. 
Worth 50 points. 
No sighters allowed, just rock up and shoot. Just a wee taste of Military type shooting if you fancy yourself.

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## Wildman

> I dont get ya Gimp -other than its way more pages than I want to read it is an analysis done for the Special operation unit and you think it shit --well Ok doesnt alter the original point though -snipers shoot less than target shooters ...well in the US and hence their ability shoot first round hit at distance are less than a well rehearsed target shooter --no hard to comprehend in my view


So you're saying Gimp is wrong because you're too lazy to read? I dont get ya?

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## ebf

> there you are EBF second from the left


Naa, that Gimp in his blimp suit  :Thumbsup:  I'm the bald dude on the right...

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## R93

> Naa, that Gimp in his blimp suit  I'm the bald dude on the right...




I thought gimp was a thai fighter not a sumo wrestler?

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## Toby

It's Gimp, he's a Thai fighter, sumo wrestler plus more

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## ebf

I've heard that he is bulking up for some MMA style fight in the upcoming redneck games  :Psmiley:

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## R93

> I've heard that he is bulking up for some MMA style fight in the upcoming redneck games


I have been working on my mono ab lately.

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## gimp

> I dont get ya Gimp -other than its way more pages than I want to read it is an analysis done for the Special operation unit and you think it shit --well Ok doesnt alter the original point though -snipers shoot less than target shooters ...well in the US and hence their ability shoot first round hit at distance are less than a well rehearsed target shooter --no hard to comprehend in my view


No the analysis literally has nothing to do with what you and your shit clickbait link think it does and you seem to be completely unable to read my posts pointing this out or, I dunno, the original source

----------


## el borracho

> Why did you post this thread El b? Honestly? What bearing has it got on anything?
> 
> I am sure most serving soldiers would acknowledge that on average and in a one off comp the seasoned target shooter would have it over the unit trained sniper 9/10 times on a gazetted range, shooting F class or the like.
> Military marksmen don't shoot V bulls. They are silhouette or 3 dimensional shooters. 95% of their targets are moving or snap. Any LR targets are/should be well thought out and only taken when there is a high % chance of hit.
> 
> *Get yourself a head-shaped target, not modeled off yours as that would just be cheating.* Thats good R93 good humor bwwhhhaaaaaaaaaaa .Ssdly Im not shooting enough nowadays and would just fall into the lowly sniper ability according to the article 
> 
> 
> Draw a 100mm dia circle centred, from the tip of the nose.
> ...


I would love to do all that shit -shame we dont have the facilities to do this stuff .
Now after all that back fanatical muslim back whipping and lamenting the original article was what it was -nothing more nothing less -a mans observation of a companies observation  about a versus b  -- 7pages of interest mmm not bad

----------


## el borracho

> No the analysis literally has nothing to do with what you and your shit clickbait link think it does and you seem to be completely unable to read my posts pointing this out or, I dunno, the original source


prove me wrong with a cut and paste -more than willing to take it on the chin Gimp !!!

----------


## Wildman

> prove me wrong with a cut and paste -more than willing to take it on the chin Gimp !!!


Single syllables and no more than 50 words. No numbers bigger than 10.

----------


## el borracho

> Single syllables and no more than 50 words. No numbers bigger than 10.


youve read the whole article have you wildman or just stirred from mental hibernation to add a worthless pennys worth

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## R93

> I would love to do all that shit -shame we dont have the facilities to do this stuff


And I would hazard a guess 99% of civilian target shooters have not done any shooting of that nature either. :36 1 5:

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## el borracho

yep Id go along with that about the movers .Movers are the main problem as one needs either permission to walk in the butts which generally arnt to big so you need to shoot pretty quick or a chain driven mechanism which is a real enthusiast domain .

In saying that it is still just a mathematical  shot depending on distance , wind and target movement speed .
Depending on distance many enthusiast could accomplish this I believe given the opportunity -its more a thing of distance I would think that would screw ones shot up with a longer distance wind call being that much harder .

Its all good fun though doing this stuff if you have a facility to have a go !

----------


## el borracho

come on Wildman Im awaiting another penny's worth

----------


## R93

> yep Id go along with that about the movers .Movers are the main problem as one needs either permission to walk in the butts which generally arnt to big so you need to shoot pretty quick or a chain driven mechanism which is a real enthusiast domain .
> 
> In saying that it is still just a mathematical  shot depending on distance , wind and target movement speed .
> Depending on distance many enthusiast could accomplish this I believe given the opportunity -its more a thing of distance I would think that would screw ones shot up with a longer distance wind call being that much harder .
> 
> Its all good fun though doing this stuff if you have a facility to have a go !


Yup, I don't need it explained. I took that type of shooting for granted my whole career. But as easy as you think it would be to adopt for a civilian. Isn't it fair to assume the soldier, with the same time spent shooting v bulls could be as good as any target shooter?

----------


## BRADS

Me thinks you guys are all nuts this is a very good read on the subject. :Have A Nice Day:

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## 308

El B, has it ever occurred to you that you come across as a bit of a cunt?

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## Gillie

Well this thread kindov deteriorated... i'll try a constructive comment.  

In my opinion, precision shooting is something like 90% in your head, 5% physical and 5% the firearm.

In top level benchrest and F Class shooting the firearm accuracy comes into it more and the physical aspect reduces, but it is still mostly a mental challenge. In military style competitions the physical aspect is more promenent and the rifle accuracy less so. Kinda pointless trying to compare them, they are simply different. 

Just about anyone (civie or military) who puts in the training, practice and mental energy into precision shooting could be as good as just about any competitive shooter in any competition (civie or military).

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## el borracho

> Yup, I don't need it explained. I took that type of shooting for granted my whole career. But as easy as you think it would be to adopt for a civilian. Isn't it fair to assume the soldier, with the same time spent shooting v bulls could be as good as any target shooter?


actually R93 I never did -As the original article eluded to "rifletime "was the key and it didnt compare any physical attributes -in fact reading pg 16 or point 5 i think said a prone rested position not under stress . Funny as hell as a few are showing fanatical attributes of some middle eastern people over this simple observation .

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## R93

Your old man Gillie, is walking proof.

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## el borracho

> El B, has it ever occurred to you that you come across as a bit of a cunt?


 your rudeness is not appreciated

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## el borracho

> Your old man Gillie, is walking proof.


here is my father r93

Men of 'forgotten war' remember - National - NZ Herald News

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## R93

> actually R93 I never did -As the original article eluded to "rifletime "was the key and it didnt compare any physical attributes -in fact reading pg 16 or point 5 i think said a prone rested position not under stress . Funny as hell as a few are showing fanatical attributes of some middle eastern people over this simple observation .


I don't think your a c#$t El B. Difficult yes, as are we all at times. But you never answer a simple question as it should be. :Grin:

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## el borracho

there was little to be answered on this article it was a straight forward observation --nothing more although it didnt go into the physical side of things which definatly as i mentioned early on would change the hit rate --but this article as i read both bits was prone non pressue shots or so the link said . 
To call someone a cunt isnt a nice thing to do , cheap very cheap shot

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## el borracho

I do enjoy a good tussel hehehe :Thumbsup:

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## R93

> To call someone a cunt isnt a nice thing to do , cheap very cheap shot


I agree. Especially in my case, some people would consider them useful  :Grin: 

Its the internet El B. Takes a while to realise it, but its not that personal. And doesn't matter in the real world.

Speaking for myself here, if I get addressed as one, I reckon I most probably deserve it. :Grin:

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## el borracho

I choose not to do that shit R93 it just aint nice and Im a very nice person if I say so myself  :Wtfsmilie: and enjoy fruitful debate

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## Wildman

> come on Wildman Im awaiting another penny's worth


Na mate I'm taking a leaf out of your book and making illogical statements based on what I think is in the given references...

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## R93

Fair enough EL B. I have just tried not to worry about it anymore. Life has just been awesome lately :Thumbsup: 

This Gentleman was the last member on my fathers side before me, to serve in the forces. I had the privilege of meeting him in the late 70's He was wounded and told he would not live out the war. He died in 1979 in his 90's. He was a soldiers, soldier. He had heaps of memorabilia that was stolen after he passed. His family farm was still running up Humphries until the late 1990's

Auckland War Memorial Museum - Mills-Edward-William-World-War-I,-1914-1918

Great site for anyone interested.

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## el borracho

you know I read this on another forum im on Snipers Hide , an excellent forum . This post was originally posted by an ex sniper school boss and this is what the boss of Sniper Hide and ex army sniper said about the piece and given that Ifind some statements here most unusual but maybe they know better

Most people don't realize the shooting part is really a tiny piece of the pie.

You have to get there, and then worry about getting back.

Observation, Communication, Land Navigation, all play just as big a roll in it, if not bigger.

Sniper School for me was 12 weeks, do you think we shot everyday ? I still have my daily schedule, so I can tell you everything that was done everyday for those 12 weeks... the majority of it was not shooting. I tell a lot of people, once you get there, they figure you already know how to shoot good enough. In most cases you had to have qualified expert at least 3x before going to Sniper School... So the instructors are not there to "teach" you how to shoot. I was much happier using my radio than I was worrying about the rifle. In places like CAX, calling for fire was much more enjoyable than shooting the rifle at the same old thing over and over. You would be more apt to have found me with a radio over a rifle.

Targets in the military are much larger, 20x40 in most cases, though nowadays they have reduced that thanks to outside training. Civilian shooters on the other hand are meticulous, passionate, and committed. They are not worried about the same things, so you really can't compare the two head to head. As noted above, combat is not the best teacher of the fundamentals. And while people do take away important lessons from combat, marksmanship fundamentals is not at the top of the list. That is why it is always interesting to read people chasing down someone for instruction because of the combat part of it. (if you're in CAG, sure, but a line unit ? )

On the combat side, since my experience was back when nobody was getting experience in combat, unlike today, we were tasked in a much different roll. It turned out to be the largest Naval battle since WWII, however on the ground pounding side, it wasn't much of a fight. We traded in our M40s for M16s and MP5s, as moving through ships, and oil platforms is much easier with those as opposed to a 44" bolt action rifle.

Sinister has a great post somewhere on the benefit of competition shooting for the Operational Sniper, since he was probably running around the AMU during this study, he would definitely be one to chime in. Needless to say, even when the opportunity is available to guys, they rarely take advantage of it. The military would rather the day off, and the cop wants to be paid.

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## el borracho

> Fair enough EL B. I have just tried not to worry about it anymore. Life has just been awesome lately
> 
> This Gentleman was the last member on my fathers side before me, to serve in the forces. I had the privilege of meeting him in the late 70's He was wounded and told he would not live out the war. He died in 1979 in his 90's. He was a soldiers, soldier. He had heaps of memorabilia that was stolen after he passed. His family farm was still running up Humphries until the late 1990's
> 
> Auckland War Memorial Museum - Mills-Edward-William-World-War-I,-1914-1918
> 
> Great site for anyone interested.


the old boy has a great shot of his father in the middle east next to an Egyptian I think dresses in there army kit =the Egyptian has a funny cone hat on and towers above grandad who is probably no bigger than me 5,4  standing on my toes --must get a copy and post it . Sadly grandad went nuts with shell shock and was fucked for years.

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## R93

Couldn't agree more with that fellas observations and I am sure I have said pretty much the same thing?

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## gimp

> prove me wrong with a cut and paste -more than willing to take it on the chin Gimp !!!



Okay you linked a page that is talking about a table that is used as a source in this study from 1999 



-The linked study is NOT about differences in theoretical accuracy of snipers/competition shooters - it is looking at the possible benefits of a fire control system on sniper weapons to increase hit probability, comparing the effect of variables on a baseline system of shooter/spotter vs a fire control system.

The author(s) of the page you linked clearly haven't actually read the study at all, and they've cherry-picked and mis-interpreted some parts of the table and written a stupid couple of paragraphs with an eye catching headline as "clickbait" to get views on their site. Either that or they did read it, and knowingly mis-represented it, to get views on their site.



-Even if the linked study was about differences in theoretical accuracy of snipers/competition shooters (which it isn't), it's FROM 1999 so it's highly unlikely that it would relevant today given the massive US military development over the last decade and a half, with 2 wars happening etc


-This is the table in question. The author of the page you linked has cherry-picked the numbers from it but disregarded the footnotes which explain that the "snipers" data is for "entry level snipers across all services", and the "competition shooter" data is for "national level competitors" and also applies to "experienced snipers"




-Even if the table WAS just comparing "snipers" and "competitive shooters at a national level" (which it isn't) it would be a biased comparison anyway because it would be comparing the shooting ability two groups, one of which has been selected for ability at shooting (competition shooters) and one that hasn't, and concluding that the selected group is better at it. No shit? 

-Even if theoretical competition shooters were proven to be more accurate on a flat range with known distance targets, sighters, unlimited time etc, that is only one facet of effective shooting and not important if others are "accurate enough" 

-The table itself is sourced from a 1990 study which I cannot find to read, the data was ESTIMATED and we have no idea how it was estimated or the sources/methods of gathering the data or real definitions so the table is utterly worthless, not even mentioning that it's two and a half decades old now. 



-The authors of the linked study completely disregard any theoretical differences in their deliberations of whether a fire-control system will improve hit probability



-You're trying to draw conclusions about a shitty article based on a mis-interpreted piece of worthless statistics. That's what I'm calling retarded, not your precious ~*special operations*~ study (which is actually 2 dudes, one of whom is a contractor from an external corporation, doing a theoretical maths problem in 1999 sooooooo.....). Read sources of stuff on the internet before posting dumb shit. Or just listen when I say something is retarded and save me all this fucking typing

-I don't give a shit about "snipers vs competition shooters" but I hate people who can't perform simple reading comprehension or critical thinking 

-Good thing I was mad bored today

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## el borracho

shit what an effort Gimp and thank you for taking time to do this!! Now even with this the practicality of the original post still stands --those that shoot lots get better than those that dont and target shooters for non pressure under fire shots will probably out shoot many Snipers in the same range test --the last post I did alludes to the mentality of some US based Snipers . No biggy just interesting 
-

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## el borracho

that last piece Frank says is funny shit !!

*The military would rather the day off, and the cop wants to be paid.*

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## Ginga

Might be a bit different than competition target shooting lying in the crap somewhere for days waiting for a shot at a human. And if you balls it up there will be problems coming your way fast. Even if you don't balls it up there may be problems coming your way!

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## Norway

Fascinating what threads that grow!

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## el borracho

it is Norway LOL

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## 6MMBR

Anyone keen to come shoot rabbits with me  2moro..???
you need to be able to start 450yards min.. :Wtfsmilie: .you can dress like a sniper if you want ,the rabbits dont care eather way :Grin:

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## R93

Im in! But can you please send me a photo of the AO so I can ensure my suit and sling-shot are matched to the terrain? Will you be taking your vehicle and shouting lunch?

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## el borracho

Yeah that'd be fun !was popping some with a standard 22 lr at 200-230 yards 7 power scope -which I thought was pretty good and easy to be fair

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## el borracho

> Im in! But can you please send me a photo of the AO so I can ensure my suit and sling-shot are matched to the terrain? Will you be taking your vehicle and shouting lunch?


 I think wearing kit would be fun --it does actually work as well .Nothing wrong with wearing what our soldiers wear -its respect

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## 6MMBR

ohh sorry wrong number.. is this not the longbow forum :Thumbsup:  interested in this long range slingshoting tho...

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## el borracho

long bow you say , Ill come dressed as Robin hood

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## R93

> long bow you say , Ill come dressed as Robin hood


Tights should be a breeze for you EL B. Have you green ones though? TBF I would rather wear tights than a ghillies suit any day of the week. I still have an old one and unfortunately you can smell it, a long time before you see it :Grin:

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## el borracho

did you make the guille yourself R93 ? I once made a hat but after gluing the netting on and tying the burlap it didnt fit my fat head LOL 
A bit of work in making a full outfit for sure --didn't you wash the bloody thing

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## 6MMBR

ohh new post.. what smells worse EL Bs tights or R93s Gillie suit.....lol

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## el borracho

the back of my tights after a boil up mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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## R93

> did you make the guille yourself R93 ? I once made a hat but after gluing the netting on and tying the burlap it didnt fit my fat head LOL 
> A bit of work in making a full outfit for sure --didn't you wash the bloody thing


You never wash a standard open country ghillie suit apart from when it is first completed, to frizz it up.

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## el borracho

do you have a cover all  suit or cape ? I imagine they weigh a friggen ton when wet ! have any advances happened in materials to counter this weight problem or are they still jute burlap . 
I would imagine a very light suit could be handy for varminting

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## R93

The base suit is issued now a days but you had to have a go at making one and passing a stalk or concealment with it. The issue ones are decent bits of kit that just needed adding to. Heavy pants and jacket that are padded on knees and elbows. You also still had to make your own head veil.

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## el borracho

Interesting R93 -I like military stuff and enjoy talking about it unlike many others  i have a keen interest in Tactical bits and bobs -Military and tactical shit is more interesting than hunting kit --in my opinion

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## Rushy

El B I hope you are not confusing "Tactical" with "tack tickle" (which is what my missus gives me with her jodphurs and boots on - riding crop in hand).

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## el borracho

hell Rushy is there another kind??? :Wink:

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## Dead is better

> The base suit is issued now a days but you had to have a go at making one and passing a stalk or concealment with it. The issue ones are decent bits of kit that just needed adding to. Heavy pants and jacket that are padded on knees and elbows. You also still had to make your own head veil.


I'm curious. On the modern battlefield - do snipers have to seek solid cover at night to avoid detection with thermal cameras ? The whole 'night ops' thing would only work against third world enemies surely.

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## el borracho

I would hazard there is a few guys here that might shed light on the question .It is amazing the tech stuff one can go into the field with .I wore some NV google some time back -high end ones from the states 3rd gen and was amazed at a pitch black area becoming green but the visibility was astounding

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## R93

Depends on how they are deployed I spose. Thermal avoidance is not that hard when static. It would really only be an opposing sniper or helicopter that would be a threat unless you fucked up majorly and they picked your general position quickly.

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## el borracho

so  avoidance by not sitting in the open is the method employed or are there cloths that help -ive seen a tent that does it but never more

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## el borracho

another questioned Ive seen posed but never really answered is how to escape the good old dog -if it was an English Setter :Psmiley:  tracking you your done but all other Im sure there is an opportunity if you know how to escape

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## Toby

> another questioned Ive seen posed but never really answered is how to escape the good old dog -if it was an English Setter tracking you your done but all other Im sure there is an opportunity if you know how to escape


Shoot the dog, its only a setter  :Grin:

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## el borracho

hahaha oh young Toby who has much to learn hahaha Ive got to give that the best funny  quote Ive seen in ages !!!

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## R93

You would never rely on any form gucci clothing to conceal you from any form of observation. You still have to use the ground and your wits. You can select a position in pretty much any terrain I can think of that will conceal you, even if an enemy on the ground was looking straight at you with the best of thermal gear. Concealing your self from both ground and air would be a challange unless using a static hide but.

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## el borracho

you say ground even though you say you can conceal while someone is thermal imaging you ?? The air observation  must be a bastard to get away from -insane what they see in a helo when blasting the insurgents , mind they appear never to have a clue theyre being observed for more points

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## R93

Yes. Just think how thermal works. Think how you can conceal yourself by using how it works to your advantage. 
No offence intended but I think you need a different mindset to understand or work out the answers your questions. Its all in the plan and you have an "actions on" most, if not all scenarios. Its warfare. Your expendable. Its up to you not to make it so easy.
Forgot to mention that armour would be a huge threat from the ground as well. They can observe you with out fear of exposing themselves in order to do so.

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## el borracho

not being a military man R93 my questions would appear naive Im sure sometimes never the less the technology and skill sets you and many others have learnt is fascinating  and I appreciate you sharing some of your insights with me and others that enjoy talking of these things

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## R93

Not naive, just of a different mindset and experience. It can be quite humbling and scary thinking like prey. The trick is I spose, not to think to much about it.

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## el borracho

farrkk yeah scarey as hell being hunted whilst hunting - I hope I never need to go through that !! I think it is a special character that would take these roles on and maybe a little more brave than others -I could be wrong but I know id be shit scared

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## el borracho

evading the dogs  is there special stuff you guys are taught or is it do the best you can

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## el borracho

quite a few reading these post so I hope we dont cross any info bounds you feel uncomfortable talking about regarding millatary technology or actions

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## Rushy

> quite a few reading these post so I hope we dont cross any info bounds you feel uncomfortable talking about regarding millatary technology or actions


El B, my understand is that the requirements for former service men and women to adhere to and observe the provisions in the Official Secrets Act endure until death.  That said, information that is already in the public domain (except by way of unofficial release) can be freely discussed.

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## R93

I am beyond my compulsory military extention so no worries there :Thumbsup:  Na, I dont think I have or would ever reveal anything considered classified. I have just mentioned that it is possible do something, not how.

With dogs, again you have to think how dogs will be used against you. They will be either controlled by a handler or not. I am sure you could think of several ways of dealing with each problem, knowing dogs, without immediately compramising yourself.

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## el borracho

dogs - seriously a good tracking dog would be hard to evade -other than crossing water and exiting a new point I would know how to evade one .
My dog if nose winding I can hide for a while if they have come from a distance and cant see me  ...............they usually find me

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## R93

If your dog was sent after me I wouldnt be to worried, unless it licked me to death :Thumbsup:  
A military/police trained dog would get a different reception if it got close enough. The pricks leading or following it probably wouldnt be to happy either. All things going well, I wouldnt have had to lift a finger :Wink:

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## Rushy

> All things going well, I wouldnt have had to lift a finger


Off the K-Bar

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## R93

> Off the K-Bar


Hell Rushy, if they ever got that close my little girl screams would have me buggered! I was thinking more like the pressel switch on the radio :Grin:

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## Gillie

Artillery (if it is in range) would be an awesome dog (or more likely dog handler) deterent... or a claymore...

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## Rushy

> Artillery (if it is in range) would be an awesome dog (or more likely dog handler) deterent... or a claymore...


Now you are talking.  How many clackers can you hold in each hand R93?

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## el borracho

I take it you just have to shoot and run if artillery is not available -if you gsp your position is artillary that accurate within several meters of a general position you want to deter

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## R93

> Now you are talking.  How many clackers can you hold in each hand R93?


Its called a clacker board Rushy :Thumbsup:  You should remember that! Electronic dets and triggers now a days.

Modern arty is scary friggin accurate. I would hazzard a guess only special forces, would regularly ever be out of Arty range. Never out of airstrike range though.

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## Rushy

> is artillary that accurate within several meters of a general position you want to deter


Ask the Aussies that were in 6th battalion RAR that fought in the battle of Long Tan what the Kiwi 161 Battery did for them

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## Gillie

> I take it you just have to shoot and run if artillery is not available -if you gsp your position is artillary that accurate within several meters of a general position you want to deter


I suspect that unless they were after a specific target a sniper would just call artilery rather than expose their own position by firing a shot. Situation dependant i imagine.

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## el borracho

So the snipers are always fairly close to the main group the the Spec ops are way out -they shoot and run to evade the dogs

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## ebf

> if you gsp your position is artillary that accurate


I have found that if you "gsp" your position, it only really works as a deterrent against vicious "sec ops" attack cats  :Wink:

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## R93

> So the snipers are always fairly close to the main group the the Spec ops are way out -they shoot and run to evade the dogs


Google some Artillery and Mortar capabilities like the 105mm and 155mm. 81mm and 120mm mortars and their different rounds and applications. Arty includes rockets as well EL B.
Besides, thats where I got all my info for this thread so far  :Wink:

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## el borracho

bwhaaaaaaa of course you did  :Psmiley:  these thread are interesting and I think many here are interested in  military technology and application , field skills especially even if described by some that read info from the net like ... haha

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## R93

I work with a bloke that has not long got back from Afgan. He still sometimes forgets he is out of the Army. :Grin:  We were in the same unit and worked together over the years. Good bugger. 
He thinks technology is slowly destroying how good the NZ soldier once was. He reckons essential basic skills are waning, which is a shame.

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## el borracho

Incredible -that is quite an observation and the worse thing one can take from that is the head has no fricken Idea how to run the body --WHY?? Its a little like volley fire until gorilla war fare was actually recognized as a better system .
Why did the navy by an Orange carrier ship ... the list of incompetent actions by the heads is insane

----------


## Rushy

> gorilla war fare


Gorilla????  Guerilla surely.  Unless of course you are battling Silver Backs.

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## el borracho

I wondered if anyone would pick that up hahaha Rushy you bloody spelling athlete

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## R93

> Gorilla????  Guerilla surely.  Unless of course you are battling Silver Backs.




Ha Ha I can now see a heap of silver backs attacking EL B's hiding spot with handfulls of shit :Grin: 

Scary Movie 5 has a similar scene in it, that had me pissing myself. Was quite clever.

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## Rushy

[QUOTE=R93;148573]Ha Ha I can now see a heap of silver backs attacking EL B's hiding spot with handfulls of shit :Grin: QUOTE]

El B beating his chest and standing his ground shakily.  Ha ha ha ha

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## el borracho

standing my ground -you kiddin Id be a headin for them thar hills

----------


## R93

I reckon if I ever went to prison, I would have to resort back to our primitive ways. Any homo's took a liking to my sweet ass, (who would blame them?) there would be shit rubbed and flung everywhere :Oh Noes:

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## el borracho

you like this guy

----------


## R93

LMFAO!

----------


## el borracho

I hadnt noticed I added the bloody forign version -English is funny as hell and for the first time after watching this multiple times I see the grandmother picking a dildo up at the start LOL

----------


## el borracho

my how our topic has wandered

----------


## Rushy

> my how our topic has wandered


There is a strong tendency for that to occur on this forum.  Must be the cross wind.  Should adjust for that.  BAM there you go El B, back on track.

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## gimp

[img]i.imgur.com/KXpXjC0.gif[/img]

----------


## R93

> [img]i.imgur.com/KXpXjC0.gif[/img]


?? Not working La!

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## el borracho

no I think it is Gimp is just speaking Klingon

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## R93

Copy and paste into google. Its just some muppet in his jocks and a tonka toy jumping out of the snow.

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## el borracho

some kinky  Dunedin thing  :Sick:

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## gimp

It's everything El B wishes he was

----------


## el borracho

you were in excellent form in that self promotion piece , possible role for you in a Dolf Ludgren movie -pays 10 bucks a day :Wink:

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## el borracho

> It's everything El B wishes he was


and by the way , what do mean WISHES!!!

----------


## el borracho

the British army

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## 308

Not fat enough, too well co-ordinated





> It's everything El B wishes he was

----------


## Friwi

> I hadnt noticed I added the bloody forign version -English is funny as hell and for the first time after watching this multiple times I see the grandmother picking a dildo up at the start LOL


that was the french version :-)

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## el borracho

> Not fat enough, too well co-ordinated


all quality unlike your foul mouthed poorly intentioned self

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## el borracho

> that was the french version :-)


i know , i had the sound down when i got it lol still funny as hell to watch

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## Wirehunt

Ok, I read some of the blah blah and gave up as it just got to thick in there, but here's what I can tell you....

I've had a couple or three army types out on the rabbits including a sniper, they didn't fair so well.   I would expect the target boys to be no better off the bat.  Simple reason is it's strange to them, something they haven't done before, now give them a month or two and I'm sure they would sort it but a strange environment fucks anybody for so long then they tune into it.

Tomorrow I'll ask headcase how the army-comp shooters did at the big shoot around Tekapo.

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## Rushy

> a strange environment fucks anybody..


Truer words are hard to find

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## Rushy

This subject is like comparing apples to dog shit.  The only true thing that can be said is they are different from one another.

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## el borracho

> Ok, I read some of the blah blah and gave up as it just got to thick in there, but here's what I can tell you....
> 
> I've had a couple or three army types out on the rabbits including a sniper, they didn't fair so well.   I would expect the target boys to be no better off the bat.  Simple reason is it's strange to them, something they haven't done before, now give them a month or two and I'm sure they would sort it but a strange environment fucks anybody for so long then they tune into it.
> 
> Tomorrow I'll ask headcase how the army-comp shooters did at the big shoot around Tekapo.


i know a couple of army snipers turned upto the gunslinger comp a few years back and didn't impress according to a friend competing there but the reality is as the original post alludes to --if you dont shoot alot those that do will probably beat you, And yes a strange environment certainly test you as i found out in the hills shooting the gunslinger -arrived with visions of Granger and left a humbled man

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## el borracho

> This subject is like comparing apples to dog shit.  The only true thing that can be said is they are different from one another.


rushy the subject was only ever comparing shooting skill nothing more so the comparison is fair and reasonable .

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## Toby

> rushy the subject was only ever comparing shooting skill nothing more so the comparison is fair and reasonable .


The test is comparing shooting skills on a range, target shooters home.

Lets compare them on the battelfeild now..

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## el borracho

its not what this was about but ok Toby , if the target shooter went to the army and the to war would he be a worse shot

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## Toby

> its not what this was about but ok Toby , if the target shooter went to the army and the to war would he be a worse shot


There you go. So isnt this arugment pointless?

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## el borracho

I think the media and Hollywood have constantly exaggerated sniper shooting skills far beyond a practical reality . When you hear a media coverage it usually in involves one mile shooting the nuts off a fly -its unfortunate they do that

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## el borracho

> There you go. So isnt this arugment pointless?


? his skill set would still be there Toby

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## Toby

> ? his skill set would still be there Toby


A bullet in his head would more then likely be there too

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## el borracho

not with you there Toby?

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## Toby

I'd be safe as, didnt you read about the 30Tobinator? Gazllion yrd rifle that is

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## Neckshot

The only person contributing the most to this pointless thread is you EL b its clear to  everyone on here its all about you and your ego mate.Im not going to call you names but really you need to face the facts that that's all this is about now the more you go on the more it stands out.Snipers generally try to keep low profile's if you want to be compared to one so bad try pulling your head in a little.

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## el borracho

> The only person contributing the most to this pointless thread is you EL b its clear to  everyone on here its all about you and your ego mate.Im not going to call you names but really you need to face the facts that that's all this is about now the more you go on the more it stands out.Snipers generally try to keep low profile's if you want to be compared to one so bad try pulling your head in a little.


i dont get you neck shot nor your comments . go and read the original post and come back --WTF has this got to do with me and my ego -you may have served but smarten up please . your offended by an practical and realistic observation and then dont like people taking about that - its a forum for ideas and interests LOL  -  do you disagree with the orignal observation????????

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## gimp

Jesus Christ shut up

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## Link

> i know a couple of army snipers turned upto the gunslinger comp a few years back and didn't impress according to a friend competing there but the reality is as the original post alludes to --if you dont shoot alot those that do will probably beat you, And yes a strange environment certainly test you as i found out in the hills shooting the gunslinger -arrived with visions of Granger and left a humbled man


I think you will find it was an off the cuff entry with a pair who hadn't ranged in with that ammo and rifle.
Intention being to interact/socialise with the civilian community, not seriously compete, or leave a don't fuck with us impression.
So I've been told.
7.62 and visual drop/wind estimation/compensation isn't very competitive when used against 338, with PDA etc at those sorts of ranges.
Funny how intentions can back fire aye El B.
I'm with the majority of other replies, your a douche.
I usually trawl here and read interesting shit which has taught me a shit load.
Your the exception

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## el borracho

that was no slight on the snipers link but does show how hard that contest is!! .  This post has wandered very badly as your own post shows with name calling .The original article was posted on another forum by a US army scout sniper /Sniper school instructor and answered rationally by other ex serviceman --some here are to precious to do that it appears and would rather attack me personally . It would be a shame if we agreed on everything as we would have little to speak about. :Oh Noes:

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## Frosty

I would agree that of course target shooters would out perform in their own environment against snipers, And if they did an assessment/comparison in a sniper environment, snipers would wipe the floor with target shooters.

Sort of seen this thing when I was lucky enough to compete in the queens medal comp a few years ago, Its pretty much target shooting with service rifles. The guy that won that year was just a normal old grunt. Some of the guys that were in the top 10 weren't snipers, But I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want to have a sniper up there ass in a combat environment no matter how many points they can score on a bit of paper.

Its a shame that people resort to personal attacks when they don't agree with a different opinion or don't hold the ability of a rational thought process, when one try's to generate conversation. Especially when all you get these days is the same old what caliber/gun/vehicle threads.

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## el borracho

just for anyone interested in reading about how a forum in the states handled this with professionals, snipers ex snipers  talking about it  here is a link --and none of them are douches for doing so so -its insightful and interesting

Shooting Skills: Sniper vs Competition Shooters

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## Savage1

What the hell happened?!

El B put up an article that showed that target shooters were more accurate than snipers. Everyone seems to be offended by this and just put up their opinion without any real evidence unlike El B. Never did it say that comp shooters were better than snipers at shooting on battlefeilds and crawling around in the crap for days on end, it was purely about putting the bullet on target.

Some of the personal attacks on here are just an embarrassment to the forum, Gimp you need to pull your head in.

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## andyanimal31

what gunslinger was that elb?



> i know a couple of army snipers turned upto the gunslinger comp a few years back and didn't impress according to a friend competing there but the reality is as the original post alludes to --if you dont shoot alot those that do will probably beat you, And yes a strange environment certainly test you as i found out in the hills shooting the gunslinger -arrived with visions of Granger and left a humbled man

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## el borracho

PM sent

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## el borracho

> What the hell happened?!
> 
> El B put up an article that showed that target shooters were more accurate than snipers. Everyone seems to be offended by this and just put up their opinion without any real evidence unlike El B. Never did it say that comp shooters were better than snipers at shooting on battlefeilds and crawling around in the crap for days on end, it was purely about putting the bullet on target.
> 
> Some of the personal attacks on here are just an embarrassment to the forum, Gimp you need to pull your head in.


bang on! dont know why some hard men here are are getting so sensitive  :Wtfsmilie: i some times it shows what a small country we truly live in

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## Wirehunt

Right, read another couple of pages of this shit and frankly the whole bunch of you fucking bitches need slapped up the side of the head.

Competition shooters shoot with there chequebook. Meatheads shoot with someone else's limited chequebook.

Almost anyone can be a top shooter, it comes down to rounds down the barrel.

This thread is fucking pathetic, and gimp, you (the big mod) have been about the worst from what I can see.  Sharpen the fuck up.

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## gimp

You guys didn't read it either huh

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## el borracho

maybe they also understood the idea behind it - it was pretty simple , Wirehunt sussed in in a said it in nutshell
 But lets not labour it -there's nothing more to be gained -an observation made and it made sense ..............

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## propfwd

A couple of notes to take into account from someone who has operated with the US military on a regular basis for over 10 years back in the 1980s-2000s  The Navy Seals who everyone is told are the greatest thing since sliced bread actually get a lot of their training from the Brit Royal Marines and Note the regular marines not the SBS as they were until combined with the SAS or any of the other specialised units. The US military has tended to rely on  its massive budget for toys that in the right hands are exceptional tools however they have tended to let the technology take over from basic military skills as an example for those of use who were in the various services during the first Gulf war the US army and marines were just introducing GPS publicly and what was found out is that due to the use of GPS the vast majority of their troops could not navigate by basic compass techniques as they had either not been taught or had forgotten due to the new toy, this led to all sorts of chaos when batteries died and there were non available to replace them. Now for the sniper v s Target shooter thing  the longest kills recorded were 1: Brit Sniper about 2-3 years ago at approx. 2450metres I can't remember the exact number but that is within +_ 15m and the second longest was by a Canadian sniper in Afghanistan about 7 or 8 years ago at 2350-2400m using a Harris .50cal issue sniper rifle. The biggest issue is the BS that Hollywood displays as all snipers including Police are trained not to shoot for the head at ranges longer than 3-400m as the risk of a miss could get the innocent people you are trying to save killed a civilian target shooter does not have this to consider when trying to kill a disgruntled piece of paper. There are a few locations in the world where a hunter can get some impression of the stress involved in sniping Africa where the game may well be hunting you and in North America where this may also occur. I have hunted in bear country in British Columbia and when you see fresh bear tracks in your tacks in Grizzly country it get a little hairy or fresh cougar tracks.

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## Norway

It's not so much about the shooting. More about the skill to determine if it is a legal target in asplir second.

There's a fine line between murder and target down.

...Internet war-ankers

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## ebf

> A couple of notes to take into account from someone who has operated with the US military on a regular basis for over 10 years back in the 1980s-2000s


Righto, since you decided to go there.

In which units did you "operate" ?
What was your specific role in those units ?

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## ebf

> ...Internet war-ankers


Fantastic term Norway +1  :Thumbsup:

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## Norway

Perhaps a bit rude and certainly off the hip as I havent read the wholethread properly.

Just seems that it deviates a lot from the original intentions (shot on paper, how well?) by adressing sniper subjects/problems in great detail without much insight or perhaps even relevance?

Off-season hunting forum idling???

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## Tahr

I've just read the first 4 of the 16 pages of this. If it didn't improve between 4-16, this truly is a shit thread.  :Thumbsup:

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## Rushy

> I've just read the first 4 of the 16 pages of this. If it didn't improve between 4-16, this truly is a shit thread.


It didn't improve Tahr.

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## el borracho

> Perhaps a bit rude and certainly off the hip as I havent read the wholethread properly.
> 
> Just seems that it deviates a lot from the original intentions (shot on paper, how well?) by adressing sniper subjects/problems in great detail without much insight or perhaps even relevance?
> 
> Off-season hunting forum idling???


Im glad you correctly noted that Norway as many didnt . as my original post said "interesting observation" *nothing more* !! lol
I think the most interesting thing from this was identifying that some in the USA forces dont get to shoot as much as they might !

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## Tahr

Jeez EB, I bet you were an annoying kid. I have never heard anyone ask so many questions  :Grin:

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## el borracho

haha well after the thread turned into Frankenstein thought may as well as there are some interesting characters here lol
Still beats me how it went from rounds on paper to comparing  feildcraft

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## propfwd

The Big thing not one person on this thread has bothered to mention and it probably based on the Hollywood crap is that the majority of target shooters spent a pile of cash on their race guns in all categories of shooting not just long range stuff and military snipers do not have this luxury. Yes an Accuracy Intl AW is a good rifle as is an M24 or M40 etc however they are not custom fit to the individual sniper as both he and his spotter are expected to be able to swap rolls as needed. Also the sniper rifles are not assigned to an individual for his sole use. Police snipers are closer to the Target shooters in that they tend to be assigned a rifle for their sole use however that is due to the smaller numbers involved. As for EBFs demands I will not go there other to say I served 11 years in the Canadian Armed forces in the regular force not reserves and spent several weeks every year operating and training with the US military and if he is upset that someone had the spin to call the US standards of training out too bad the best thing to happen for the US military has been the Second Iraq and Afghanistan wars as they have had to correct the standards that had been allowed to creep in since Vietnam.

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## ebf

> As for EBFs demands I will not go there other to say I served 11 years in the Canadian Armed forces in the regular force not reserves and spent several weeks every year operating and training with the US military and if he is upset that someone had the spin to call the US standards of training out too bad the best thing to happen for the US military has been the Second Iraq and Afghanistan wars as they have had to correct the standards that had been allowed to creep in since Vietnam.


prop, I am questioning YOUR credentials, you can make whatever claims you wish about the quality of training of US units compared to other countries.

the internet, and especially sites such as this is unfortunately full of war-ankers (cheers Norway) and wanabe rambos.

your initial post contained enough factual inaccuracies for me to question you...

you can go the standard wannabe route and claim that you were in such a super-secret unit that you can't disclose your service details, or maybe it was so super-secret that all the files were destroyed (yet another wannabe tactic). or, you can man up and simply state what capacity you served in and how that gives you the background and cred to be taken seriously. if you were an actual operator in a spec-ops team, PM me your operators badge number, this can easily be checked with the relevant association, and I will publicly apologize to you. if you served in a regular unit, you should have no problem saying something like "I served with xxx unit, as a front-line infantryman, and saw action in zzz. but then again maybe you were an admin clerk and never saw any combat ?

the ball is in your court  :Wink:

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## el borracho

Guys there is nothing to be gained carrying on this thread  :X X:

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