# Hunting > Varminting and Small Game Hunting >  Taumarunui golf club cat / Facebook mob

## Flyblown

Some of you may have seen this news story this morning. Its certainly getting quite a lot of attention.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/justic...5IYZPL3LNODNA/

Whilst the video in this article has the old fellas face and rego blurred, he is not blurred in the Facebook version and most in the local community will know who he is by now.

I looked up the Facebook page referenced in the article and was predictably gobsmacked by the hysterical commentary. The SPCA did make a comment about the fact that it is not illegal to shoot a cat as long as it doesnt suffer, and that there is no legal distinction between a pet and a pest. 

But the issue here is the use of the firearm. I am really hoping this fella is able to prove he met the requirements of the law when he talks to the police. Else he's gonna be in a spot of bother. It's likely the golf club folks have been shooting rabbits for years and years.

Anyway, this is what can happen at the hands of hostile witnesses with phone cameras, irrespective of whether the actions or activities are justified or not. Maybe old mate wasn't too smart and was far too close to the houses, maybe not... but that matters not, for The Mob has spoken! This is a real risk for me in my area, as I've mentioned on here before - lots of anti-shooting cat-loving predator-denying ex-suburban rural-wannabees. 

This on the day that in Australia the feral cat was listed as the number one most expensive pest, with an estimated annual >$18 BILLION spent on trying to control them! Like WTF how much???

Attachment 173770

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## Russian 22.

If what the cat owner says is true then the shooter is not going to have a gun time. Pointing a gun towards a residential area will never end well

Can't say I care much about the cat though.

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## chainsaw

would have thought a 6 or 7 iron should have done the trick

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## ebf

Watched the vid. Shooters body language and response pretty much says it all. I think he knew he fucked up and was trying to make a dash for it.

I'd be seriously surprised if he keeps his 1) pest control job 2) firearms license

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## vulcannz

> I looked up the Facebook page referenced in the article and was predictably gobsmacked by the hysterical commentary. The SPCA did make a comment about the fact that it is not illegal to shoot a cat as long as it doesn’t suffer, and that there is no legal distinction between a pet and a pest.


While I despise cats that is not true. Companion cats are protected under law as a companion animal, and unlike dogs have a right to trespass. You can kill feral cats, but must be very careful to identify them properly.

That said it sounds like he was shooting at a built up area, and clearly with people around. Guy appears to be an idiot.

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## buzzman

Id be be pretty unhappy if it was my cat and I dont even like them


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## Flyblown

> While I despise cats that is not true. Companion cats are protected under law as a companion animal, and unlike dogs have a right to trespass. You can kill feral cats, but must be very careful to identify them properly.
> 
> That said it sounds like he was shooting at a built up area, and clearly with people around. Guy appears to be an idiot.


OK that's interesting @vulcannz, have you got the text that explains that somewhere? Would be good to compare that to what the SPCA is quoted as having said.

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## Flyblown

This is what one of the commentators on the Facebook page had to say; I would be very interested to hear if this is actually incorrect and if so what the law states in terms of shooting cats that are not on their owner’s property. As I type this I remember a case down in Wellington somewhere where cat owners got together to challenge the trapping of cats? 


I emailed the SPCA and got this response - which rather surprised me since numerous people said that killing pets was illegal "Thank you for your email. It is concerning to read about cats being shot, however the legal issue under the Animal Welfare Act 1999 (the Act) is ensuring that the method by which an animal is killed is humane. The Act does not distinguish between pets and production animals. Shooting, if done correctly, is considered humane for a cat if they are killed instantly. There is no legal requirement for a shooter to determine if an animal (including cats) is a pet, so it becomes more of an ethical issue. Therefore, the issue of cat ownership becomes a matter for the police as a potential 'theft of property' if a shot cat was found to be owned.

However, if a cat is not killed but only wounded, depending on the circumstances, a person may be investigated for potential offences under the Act by an SPCA inspector. In these circumstances the SPCA would require information such as the contact details of the person who shot the cat (name/address/phone number) to be able to follow up and conduct enquiries into the matter. Therefore, if you do have any information regarding the identification of the shooter please contact your local SPCA to discuss whether there are sufficient grounds to have an inspector investigate. You can find the SPCA Centres here: https://www.spca.nz/about#spca-centre-locations.

In order to change the law regarding killing pet cats, you would need to contact the government as they pass the New Zealand legislation in Parliament. Currently Meka Whaitiri is the Associate Minister of Agriculture (Animal Welfare). You can contact her via email m.whaitiri@ministers.govt.nz or through the parliamentary website https://www.beehive.govt.nz/minister/hon-meka-whaitiri.

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## trapperjohn

Just trying to think what a cat could be doing to make a nuisance of its self on a golf course.
Then remembered what it is that they would do in the sand trap.

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## Flyblown

I read my first post again and I don’t think I’ve done a very good job of communicating what I was thinking. It probably sounds like I’m defending the old fella for shooting someone’s cat, which isn’t really what I was trying to say. 

My point was if someone is unhappy with you, whether that reason is legitimate or not, there is nothing to stop them filming you and then starting a campaign against you. Which nowadays is extremely easy to achieve, inciting “mob justice” against an individual before any assessment of the case by the police / courts. At first glance it doesn’t look good for this bloke and if he has fucked up then he must face up to the consequences. But what if he hasn’t fucked up at all and is entirely within his rights to shoot that cat? I feel very strongly that Vinny’s owner should have simply gone to the police from the get go, and that starting a Facebook campaign was completely unnecessary. Sadly that it is very much a sign of the times.

Reading through the Facebook comments there were actually a few laugh out loud moments at some of the craziness on display. Primarily the insistence by several that there is no such thing as a feral cat in New Zealand, just lost and lonely abandoned strays looking for a home. Whatever.

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## GWH

If the story played out like described by the cats owner, he said the cat was shot while it was on his own section, and he said the shooter was pointing the rifle at the houses.  If correct then I wouldnt want to be the old boy shooter.

After watching the video footage captured by the cats owner, the shooter didnt deal with the situation in a great way at all. By doing what he did (nothing and just walking away) he has only inflamed the situation further.

Unless miles out in the backcountry well away from houses there is always that bit of doubt that can creep in as to if the cat is feral or potentially a pet.  Ive shot a few ferals over the years while out doing rabbit control in orchards that do have some houses not too far away.  

On these properties I always like to get a really good look at cats first before pulling the trigger, in my experience thus far the ferals are fairly obvious compared to domestic pets.  Of the cats ive shot upon recovery of them i havnt got it wrong yet, theres been some cats closer to the houses where i have my doubts about them being ferals and ive left them.

We have a pet cat, kids got it as a kitten in the last couple of years, but right from when we first got it, it gets locked in the house at night and sleeps on the end of my daughters bed, it's not free to roam around hunting, during the day it hunts butterflies and leaves blowing around in the breeze, it looks at birds and pukekos with interest but its too useless to catch any.

It's always an ethical thing with shooting cats I think, my wife really doesn't like me shooting them at all, but I know the damage a feral cat can do.  But I'd be a bit upset with myself if i did end up shooting someones pet, hence I'm very careful with getting a decent look at them first on the properties i shoot.

It'll be interest to see how this situation plays out.

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## GWH

> I read my first post again and I don’t think I’ve done a very good job of communicating what I was thinking. It probably sounds like I’m defending the old fella for shooting someone’s cat, which isn’t really what I was trying to say. 
> 
> My point was if someone is unhappy with you, whether that reason is legitimate or not, there is nothing to stop them filming you and then starting a campaign against you. Which nowadays is extremely easy to achieve, inciting “mob justice” against an individual before any assessment of the case by the police / courts. At first glance it doesn’t look good for this bloke and if he has fucked up then he must face up to the consequences. But what if he hasn’t fucked up at all and is entirely within his rights to shoot that cat? I feel very strongly that Vinny’s owner should have simply gone to the police from the get go, and that starting a Facebook campaign was completely unnecessary. Sadly that it is very much a sign of the times.
> 
> Reading through the Facebook comments there were actually a few laugh out loud moments at some of the craziness on display. Primarily the insistence by several that there is no such thing as a feral cat in New Zealand, just lost and lonely abandoned strays looking for a home. Whatever.


Yes the cat owner has definitely gone about things in the wrong way here, but as you say this social media naming and shaming has become the norm now.  I can understand the cats owner doing this, if he had already taken it to the police and they didnt want to know, but it doesnt sound like that is the case.

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## Sarvo

Stupid old goat !!
I know that area well - be the last thing you would do on that Golf Course 
95% chance any Moggy there be a family pet

No - he needs a good lesson
On Facebook or TV - no
Just dealt with in proper Official way

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## buzzman

> I'd be pretty unhappy if your cat was on my place...


He said was on his place?


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## Flyblown

> He said was on his place?


He's not quoted as saying "it was on my property". He says it was in the gully behind his property. If the cat was shot in his backyard it would say that. On the FB page he says something about wanting a guarantee from the golf club no more cats will be shot on golf club property. 

I'm thinking the cat was on the golf club land.

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## muzza

Wot he said ^^^^^

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## Boar Freak

> Seems perfectly reasonable to me? 
> What would you do if some rabid cat-feeding bookface twat was filming you? You know there's no reasoning with a karen...
> 
> If you don't want "your" cat shot, keep it on your place, with a fluro collar and a bell.


Pretty simple isn't it? I also wish people would stop dumping unwanted pets in rural areas. I could open a KFC with all the roosters dumped around us.

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## HILLBILLYHUNTERS

> While I despise cats that is not true. Companion cats are protected under law as a companion animal, and unlike dogs have a right to trespass. You can kill feral cats, but must be very careful to identify them properly.
> 
> That said it sounds like he was shooting at a built up area, and clearly with people around. Guy appears to be an idiot.


          So how the hell do you tell the difference .

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## Flyblown

For the purpose of covering my own arse and those of my neighbours where we remove pest cats (trapping & shooting), I took a look at the claim that as companion animals, pet cats have legal protection to trespass onto other peoples properties (see post #5).

Words to this effect can be found on numerous cat enthusiast websites, as well as in some of the media articles about this golf club incident. But it is also mentioned on legal websites:

Community Law
_Its generally accepted that cats are allowed to wander on to other peoples property and that the owner isnt responsible for any damage they do.

_Citizens Advice Bureau / Law Society
_Cats are allowed to trespass and their owner is usually not liable for damage the cat does to neighbouring property._

Turner Hopkins Legal - Neighbour Law Part 2
_Cats - unlike dogs, cats are not closely regulated, and are allowed to trespass. The cats owner is not usually liable for any damage made by their cat._


So I went looking for this law, and initially ran into a heap of dead ends as the references all linked to old MPI documents that have been removed.

So I started with the Animal Welfare Act (1999), which uses Codes of Welfare for each animal group. The one that applies to cats was first produced in 2007, but updated and replaced in 2018. All the dead end links point to the 2007 document, and I cant find that one now.

https://www.mpi.govt.nz/dmsdocument/...Companion-cats

The Code of Welfare: Companion Cats is the legal framework that links back to the Animal Welfare Act. Its against this code that any legal issues are judged. I havent been able to find anything else legal-like that talks about companion cats.

_Failure to meet a minimum standard in this Code may be used as evidence to support a prosecution for an offence under the Act._

Anyway, this code makes no reference to cats being allowed to trespass. It may have stated something along these lines in the previous 2007 version, hence the prevalent view online that cats are allowed to trespass.

The NZ Veterinary Association says in its Responsible Companion Cat Ownership policy (2018):

_To avoid companion cats having a negative impact on other people, animals and the environment, an owner should:__not allow cats to stray from their property__ensure cats do not predate on vulnerable, native wildlife. Measures to reduce predation include the use of deterrent collars, curfews, confinement and the use of cat aviaries.__ensure cats do not use neighbours yards or gardens for toileting_So has something changed? Did they drop the permissible trespass part? The only part of the current code that talks about cats wandering says:

_It is strongly recommended that cats are able to be accurately identified in case of loss, or being held in boarding accommodation. Cats are likely to spend some of their time outside of their owners legal property boundary. For the purposes of control, it is necessary to be able to identify whether a cat has an owner or not._

If any of you fellas know something about the legalities that I havent been able to find yet, then please post it because I would like to know exactly where we stand regarding the removal of pest cats in rural areas. I am specifically interested in this business of cats being legally allowed to trespass with no owner liability, which I have not been able to identify in either the act or the code.

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## Mohawk .308

As a young fella I used to go down to foxton dump rat shooting with my .22  you had to shoot the cats before the rats would come out. Lots of cats!!One night the local cop turned up as someone had complained about me. He wasn’t sure if I was allowed to be down there shooting and said maybe I’d better just go home for tonight and come back tomorrow night....life was so much easier back then

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## Puffin

I recall this article from several years ago, mainly because of the terminology:  "mischievous propensity"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-sta...ts-and-the-law
Again though no reference back to any particular piece of legislation for this aspect. It seems unlikely with the Author's legal background that some basis didn't exist for making this claim.

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## Flyblown

Righto, well that’s interesting, I’ve never heard of _mansuetae naturae._ What I’m detecting @Puffin is that there’s been a shift in attitude towards roaming cats, as there’s been an apparent hardening of attitude since 2018. I wish I could find the 2007 Code to see if there was reference to it in there.

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## XR500

Cats found tresspassing on my farm generally have blue eyes...

One blew over there and the other one blew over there. Thats a 22.250 for ya.

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## Micky Duck

well I know the area VERY well having spent my highschool years across the road from golf course.....residential properties close by...NOT an area I would suggest good place to be shooting cats,at that time the local rubbish dump was located less than km away..basically across the road towards river and maybe 500 yards down  road...old cut backs into pumice cliffs gradually getting filled up.
a dead cat is a feral cat......... and if I see feral cat morethan km away from houses and have ability to dispatch it cleanly it becomes a dead cat.

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## Boar Freak

> Righto, well that’s interesting, I’ve never heard of _mansuetae naturae._ What I’m detecting @Puffin is that there’s been a shift in attitude towards roaming cats, as there’s been an apparent hardening of attitude since 2018. I wish I could find the 2007 Code to see if there was reference to it in there.


Look up page 7 to see if your area have any bylaws @Flyblown ,that might help: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.publish.csiro  .au%2Fpc%2Fpdf%2FPC16022&clen=242157

This one is Welly. Read 3.3, it might been put in there to stop people calling every 5 minutes when a cat walks past a window. https://wellington.govt.nz/your-coun...-animals#four4

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## Flyblown

> Pretty sure Acts as-enacted are available at nzlii.org If you can be bothered searching back.
> 
> None of the sites you've linked are legislation. They're all policy, interpretation, 
> 
> "the law" is avail at legislation.govt.nz


Nope. I started with the Act, which is the high level law as applies to all animals, which in turn references the Codes. The codes are set by the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee and once issued are held by the MPI. It’s all explained in the Act section 5. Each animal or group of animals get its own code. I linked to the cat code, which says on the front cover “Issued under the Animal Welfare Act 1999”. 

The quotes from various entities are relating either to the previous code (2007), or to common law rulings where precedent was created by a judge at some point in time. I suspect the ambiguity of some of the references to trespassing cats (e.g. “generally accepted”) is relating to common law interpretation which is fluid, depending on circumstances. Either way, the NZVC is making its stance clear enough - don’t let your cat wander. 

Bottom line is if you shoot someone’s pet cat, and the court believes you knew it was their pet or it should have been obvious it was a pet, you have a case to answer. Which is why the NZVC (and SPCA) make strong statements in their policy about making sure your pet is identifiable as a pet (e.g. collar). Which is what we’ve told our new neighbours - always make sure your cat wears its collar. Not that a collar will save it from a Steve Allan trap.

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## Flyblown

Yup @Boar Freak, local bylaws are on the list. I can’t get that first link to work though.

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## Flyblown

Waikato District Council:
Section 5, Keeping of Animals
5.6 Any person keeping an animal shall ensure the animal is confined to the boundaries of the premises where the animal is kept.

That’s pretty clear.

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## Boar Freak

Its from here Google: Research challenges and conservation implications for urban cat management in New Zealand.pdf

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## Rush

As a cat and gun owner that story/video hurts both ways. You better be damn sure it's a feral cat if you're going to shoot it.

What a shit situation. Agree that online mobs are shit too.

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## Rush

> Do you "own" it though? Or just feed it and then let it loose to do what carnage it wants?


A bit of both I suppose - the curtains and armchair are buggered. I have two indoor cats. They're ragdolls and are known to be a bit dopey around vehicles, so they are kept inside.

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## flock

Had several cats and dogs, just like all creatures they all different, temperaments etc.
I've also shot cats out wide in the bush, and dump sights where there numbers had got away and they were suffering,  abandoned badly looked after cats left by tenants. 
One lasted 23 years, got dragged all over NZ with me and was a real mate, the hunting subsided with age and weight, the fighting part took longer determined bugger, that lasted until the last 5 or 6 years, after several hidings, he gave it away.
Perhaps I'm strange, but I relate and admire a creature, that hunts solo, washes itself and can take its self to the toilet, great pets, easy to keep, not in your face 24/7. 
For city folk they are the ideal pet, still need to be cared for, guess that includes humans as well as, like society today  (dam things gone wild!)

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## Cigar

I currently have a cat sitting half on the back of my neck, half on the back of the couch.

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## vulcannz

Interesting reading, @Flyblown my original statement came from some research I did many years back when we had a problem cat shitting around our property and I was trying to figure out my rights. Looks like as you have found a lot of documents have disappeared and may have not been as legally strong as they seemed.

Anyway, we got a dog who hates cats. That stopped the problem for me.

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## Flyblown

I took a look at the Facebook group set up by the cat's owner. 

Oh dear. 

If this is truly where our society is going with social media, we're going to be staring at the other side of the U-bend pretty soon. 

Not only is the alleged shooter named, there's been several nasty threats made against him. From what I can tell, numerous other comments naming him, posting his address and threats of violence against him have been removed in a vain attempt to keep the group reasonably above board. But there's still heaps there. Since when have ordinary people felt emboldened to make such threats publicly, under their own name (and photo)?! How nuts is that?! This old fella is in a world of bother now, that's for sure. 

There's been a few posters on the thread telling the cat's owner (Geoff) to take it down or at least make it private, as it's all pretty appalling. 

I've got a better understanding of why Predator Free NZ 2050 didn't go down the feral cat route now, and decided to keep that particular problem under wraps... I don't look at Facebook very often. Kinda wish I hadn't looked at this!

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## ebf

No different from what happens here. People regularly seem to feel "bold" enough to say stuff they would never say face to face... And remember when Hera Cook and other members of GF NZ had their address details exposed here. No different in my view.

People behave like retards online... It is what it is unfortunately.

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## Flyblown

> And remember when Hera Cook and other members of GF NZ had their address details exposed here. No different in my view.


I didn't know that. Crikey. At least there's a bit more policing going on around here now.

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## Mintie

Its an odd world out there for pest controllers for sure. 

Just last week I twice had one of my Pukeko traps pulled apart, damaged, and bits of it stolen to prevent me from using it to catch anything. After the first vandalism I setup a camera, mocked the trap back up again and bingo, within hours caught 2 old ladies with wire cutters trespassing onto my clients property to take my trap apart again because there was a duck in it - They even left me a note calling me a "rotten horrid duck killer" and telling me that SPCA would be there tomorrow to prosecute me. 

I choose to only live trap and check all my traps daily to release anything that isn't targeted/permitted, same with cats - I trap first then determine if they are wild or pet before dispatch.

Anyway, footage given to cops, they posted the old ladies photos to facebook and had their contact details within an hour. Will be interesting to see what they are charged with and how much reparation they have to pay me.

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## Trout

Just watched that vid grrr.If i was the cat owner,i wouldve stood in front of thats c...s drivers door and called the cops.F.... tosser.He can try and move my 140kgs if he likes.

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## Trout

> Its an odd world out there for pest controllers for sure. 
> 
> Just last week I twice had one of my Pukeko traps pulled apart, damaged, and bits of it stolen to prevent me from using it to catch anything. After the first vandalism I setup a camera, mocked the trap back up again and bingo, within hours caught 2 old ladies with wire cutters trespassing onto my clients property to take my trap apart again because there was a duck in it - They even left me a note calling me a "rotten horrid duck killer" and telling me that SPCA would be there tomorrow to prosecute me. 
> 
> I choose to only live trap and check all my traps daily to release anything that isn't targeted/permitted, same with cats - I trap first then determine if they are wild or pet before dispatch.
> 
> Anyway, footage given to cops, they posted the old ladies photos to facebook and had their contact details within an hour. Will be interesting to see what they are charged with and how much reparation they have to pay me.


Ducks are nice to eat,id ask you if i can have it for the pot.lols.Thats why we have duck shooting season,get rid of the millions out there destoying crops and doing a lot of damage.

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## Finnwolf

> No different from what happens here. People regularly seem to feel "bold" enough to say stuff they would never say face to face... And remember when Hera Cook and other members of GF NZ had their address details exposed here. No different in my view.
> 
> People behave like retards online... It is what it is unfortunately.


Except me!

I behave like a retard regardless where I am! :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 

But seriously, keyboard warriors abound even on this site.

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## Musclebob

Cats can be considered property, which opens up s269 of the crimes act.

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## Bill999

yeah I live on the road where people dump cats in my area to "set them free"
my best month I caught 32 
all live capture and all looked at very closely before dispatching
I also ask the nabours if they have a cat and what it looks like 

its not hard to avoid killing pet cats around residential areas that guy is just a clown. 
Its always best to let cats go if you are unsure and there are houses near by, easy enough to trap later in a live capture 

whether or not you like cats is inconsequential, that was a shitty move by the shooter not to see a cat and consider if it is someones pet when there are houses around that close

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What's all of this then, an order number for cat at your restaurant?

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## XR500

Its in VietNamese, so will be the order number for dogs, not cats :Thumbsup:

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## McNotty

You should’ve seen the back lash that ITM Marton got after the counter cat Rodney  (that no bugger could even get near) was dumped out of town by some of the workers. They were getting death threats from overseas, it was a bloody shit show!! Google Rodney the cat and you’ll get 10s of bloody articles pop up. It was Karen’s to the power of 100. 

I’m sick to death of the neighbours cats shitting on our lawn and vegie gardens, I like the neighbours, they’re good people. Apart from letting their bloody cats roam. Has anyone got any non violent solutions to the issue that they’ve had success with?

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## trapperjohn

High Voltage the higher the better.

Nah, seriously, Electric fence, small battery powered job connected to low wires, they make a hell of noise when they touch and run off all frazzled/fluffed up.
Bloody hilarious..

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## McNotty

> High Voltage the higher the better.
> 
> Nah, seriously, Electric fence, small battery powered job connected to low wires, they make a hell of noise when they touch and run off all frazzled/fluffed up.
> Bloody hilarious..


Bloody good idea!! I’ve got an old solar unit sitting at the olds place. Cheers

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## m101a1

corgi x 2 works at our place

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## Ben Waimata

> yeah I live on the road where people dump cats in my area to "set them free"



I have this problem too, with a constant supply of half starved kittens left down the end of the road. Which is part of the reason why we have 5 pet cats :Pissed Off:

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## Cigar

Cat just climbed in my lap and is deciding between olympics or reading NZHS forum…might not let her read this thread…

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## Jusepy

Yep same here , live rural and have had so many cats dumped on the road. Have to be a bit careful now as neighbours are popping up more and more as farms are being subdivided along the road.
Ive shot four cats and some kittens since ive lived here , sister in law who runs the farm tells me 'if you see a cat shoot it' .
I know what the neighbours cat looks like so i leave that one alone , but the rest of them , get lead sandwhiches.
Its interesting though , cats are clever . One ferral cat on the farm , as soon as you find it or disturb it , moves location time and time again. Have been looking for the bastard for fuck knows how long now. It wont go into a trap and is a big wooly bastard. A smart wooly bastard ! Ill get em eventually.

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## Micky Duck

> You should’ve seen the back lash that ITM Marton got after the counter cat Rodney  (that no bugger could even get near) was dumped out of town by some of the workers. They were getting death threats from overseas, it was a bloody shit show!! Google Rodney the cat and you’ll get 10s of bloody articles pop up. It was Karen’s to the power of 100. 
> 
> I’m sick to death of the neighbours cats shitting on our lawn and vegie gardens, I like the neighbours, they’re good people. Apart from letting their bloody cats roam. Has anyone got any non violent solutions to the issue that they’ve had success with?


hose them on sight....the wetter the better...sprinkler onto hose,hooked to washing machine tap inside,works for barking dog too,they dont know where its coming from,the hose suddenly comes to life.
but a dog loose in section is by far the best cat deterent...one of these days our cat will get in scrap and vault back over home fence and cat following her will land in waiting jaws of our dog....been close a few times now....and our cat stays at home all night,is fed so much doesnt need to eat anything else...and in 6 mths has caught 3 waxeyes,its not uncommon to have 30 of them eating the containers of fat I leave out for them.

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## McNotty

I’m very close to getting a live capture possum trap, catching the bugger and dealing to it with the hose while spraying it with that cat deterrent you can buy. I think it’d pick up the association of the water to the deterrent pretty quick.

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## erniec

You can get a sprinkler with a motion detector used to stop pigeons shitting everywhere it would work on cats.

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## Musclebob

> A) really?
> B) if you use, or allow your property to be used in the wanton destruction of wildlife, or to annoy or others...


Property is pretty broadly defined in the Crimes Act, so S269 could apply. Cats have common law rights of trespass and are also considered property under common law. 

I neither use, or allow my cats to be used to annoy (annoy hasnt yet been criminalised by our dear leader) or cause damage, regardless, what the cat does is not likely to be something I am liable for (common law again) though I do take steps to mitigate the risk of the cat doing damage.

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## Bill999

> I have this problem too, with a constant supply of half starved kittens left down the end of the road. Which is part of the reason why we have 5 pet cats


my missus got a live capture trap for her birthday (from me) that collapses and goes in the back of her car
she catches heaps of them and has three cats of her own but dropps all the "not too far gone" kittens that havent developed into complete psychopaths' get taken to the spca 
anything older gets the lead pill


I cannot stress it enough either let the cat out of you live capture trap without harming it or kill it immediately
anything else will constitute animal abuse and will leave you open to become the next big social media case as they drag you thru the courts
any form of teaching it a lesson while in a trap and then letting it go will be delt with very seriously

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## 2post

https://youtu.be/ElcviGYMb3U
I helped a mate make a cat deterrent with a washing machine solenoid valve a sprinkler and a motion sensor, it worked well and auto watered his vegetable garden.
I believe spraying pest animals with water is SPCA approved.
We have a dog and no cat issues but our neighbour has a beautiful tabby that our dog has almost got hold of more than once, I would hate that to happen but don’t want it in our vegetable garden.

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## Flyblown

> We have a dog and no cat issues but our neighbour has a beautiful tabby that our dog has almost got hold of more than once, I would hate that to happen but don’t want it in our vegetable garden.


I’ve run into the problem of my dogs catching wandering cats in our property… it certainly isn’t a positive step towards friendly neighbour relations. I always remember this article from a few years back because of the interview with the cat owner…

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/870...o-his-backyard

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## Musclebob

> ...Any evidence to back this up?


The fun part with common law is that it’s not written down, but found in case law and I’m not scrolling through pages of Lexis Nexus without someone paying for it.

If you check the law society pages wrt trespass and nuisance, you’ll find some info there. 

In a nutshell, dogs are regulated and have specific (statue) laws laying down owners responsibility. Cats are not highly regulated, falling under common (case law) in most respects.

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## vulcannz

Cat owners do have a duty of care to protect their pets though. Letting them wander could be considered failing in that duty.

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## Flyblown

> In a nutshell, dogs are regulated and have specific (statue) laws laying down owners responsibility. Cats are not highly regulated, falling under common (case law) in most respects.


This is the area that Gareth Morgan was working on through the National Cat Management Strategy. He got quite a head of steam going for a while but it seems to have petered out in the last couple of years. He wanted cats to be subject to the same kind of statute laws that dogs are. And the NZVC agreed and changed their policy in 2018, the first time they explicitly said cats should be kept on the owners property. Regional bylaws were drafted to demand that domestic cats are microchipped and registered, e.g. Wellington City in 2016. Its a bloody slow & contentious process though and I wonder if we will ever see cats subject to the same laws as dogs.

Politically its a hot potato because cat owners are often a one-eyed bunch who hysterically object to any potential consequences for Tiddles nuisance behaviour. The problem for New Zealand law making is that we have one of the highest cat ownership rates in the world, if not #1, and I can just imagine any government being highly reluctant to pass a bill clamping down on cat owners when probably more than half the voting population would object!

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## Bill999

> Ive run into the problem of my dogs catching wandering cats in our property it certainly isnt a positive step towards friendly neighbour relations. I always remember this article from a few years back because of the interview with the cat owner
> 
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/870...o-his-backyard





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Boar Freak

> Property is pretty broadly defined in the Crimes Act, so S269 could apply. Cats have common law rights of trespass and are also considered property under common law. 
> 
> I neither use, or allow my cats to be used to annoy (annoy hasn’t yet been criminalised by our dear leader) or cause damage, regardless, what the cat does is not likely to be something I am liable for (common law again) though I do take steps to mitigate the risk of the cat doing damage.


Unless you discharge a firearm in an annoying way , see Arms Act 1983 No44 section 48b.
I see this whole cats trespassing thing in a different way.
We are in a process of setting up a decent size joint QE2 covenant with a couple of our neighbours, about 106 acres.  We invested a good amount of time and money into this project to protect the native fauna and flora on our land, so did QE2. So as far as I can see in our case someone else's property is causing damage in our property(the crowns property) so we are taking steps to mitigate the risk of loosing protected species. We are required to have a pest management plan and control all species that do not belong here (mainly rats and possums). I am aware of stomach contents studies both here and other countries where I have been involved with wildlife management. I agree that rodents will be the dominant part of those research findings but the amount of NZ native species is still significant enough for me to care . NZ got about 1.1-1.2M pet cats, lets say they only kill one native animal each a year, that is a large amount of wildlife lost. Than add to that the unknown number of ferals , some say around 200,000.
I will give a free get out of jail (cage trap)card for each animal that has a collar or microchip (I have a reader) the first time, trip down to animal control then owner can pay to release the animal from there. Late night meetings during rabbit control usually have a different outcome. 
We are lucky to live far away enough from town to not have too many issues. Most people around here don't have cats, the ones that do got theirs microchipped and collared.

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## Flyblown

Well, the old fella that shot the cat on the golf club grounds got away with it no prosecution. Needless to say the justice for vinny the cat Facebook group is apoplectic. The cats owner said:

_The police advised me today that unfortunately they can't take the matter any further in terms of seeking a prosecution.  They have spent weeks looking at all possible angles, looking through legislation/laws, going through case law and thoroughly investigating all possible options, with assistance from a detective, and talking to prosecutions, but have been unable to establish a case that satisfies the requirements of the prosecution team.  It wasn't for lack of trying, and the officers who worked on the case are both cat owners and have no involvement with the golf club._

_The golf club have apparently changed their pest control practices to exclude shooting cats and some time after lockdown ends I'll be meeting with them, probably at the police station, to find out exactly what their new policy toward cats is._

_The shooter apparently feels bad about what has happened, and says he never intended to shoot a pet cat.  I don't think I'll ever believe him though.
_

Theres a backstory to this. The cat owner (Geoff) is a cat nut who has multiple cats that come and go, lots of rehoming of strays and so on. One of those community cat people. At any one time he has 8 or 9, sometimes more, sometimes less, and they are free to come and go as they please. I have a big problem with that. Something that hasnt helped him is that he has in the past posted several photos of the birds that his cats catch in the bush between him and the golf club. None too bright Geoff. The cat was shot a good distance away from his house. Definitely not in his backyard as originally intimated. 

Word is some of the locals nearby are none too impressed with the burgeoning cat population in the north end of town. It seems that Geoffs cats breed like flies. Again, all stuff he freely shares with the world. 

So my take on it is that he has lost one cat out of a transient number of waifs and strays, and the more permanent residents as his place.

I would love to know how far the Police _really_ took this investigation. If they were unable to secure a case against the shooter to the satisfaction of the prosecutor, then maybe some of the case law that has been mentioned in this thread isnt as strong as was thought. Maybe theyre just fobbing him off. Maybe the mood towards wandering cats has indeed shifted in favour of birdlife and fewer feral / stray / companion apex predators marauding around on private property and public land. Ultimately well probably never know.

Interesting case this, nothing is ever as it seems of course. Is it ever?

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## GWH

There's always two sides to a story and we only got to hear the cat owners story. It certainly seems it didnt quite happen as he indicated.  Ie not even a charge of careless use of a firearm (cat owner had said the rifle was discharged while pointing at residential housing).

Good outcome by the sounds.

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## vulcannz

Cat owners do have a duty of care to protect their pets though. Letting them wander could be considered failing in that duty.

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## Flyblown

> In a nutshell, dogs are regulated and have specific (statue) laws laying down owners responsibility. Cats are not highly regulated, falling under common (case law) in most respects.


This is the area that Gareth Morgan was working on through the National Cat Management Strategy. He got quite a head of steam going for a while but it seems to have petered out in the last couple of years. He wanted cats to be subject to the same kind of statute laws that dogs are. And the NZVC agreed and changed their policy in 2018, the first time they explicitly said cats should be kept on the owners property. Regional bylaws were drafted to demand that domestic cats are microchipped and registered, e.g. Wellington City in 2016. Its a bloody slow & contentious process though and I wonder if we will ever see cats subject to the same laws as dogs.

Politically its a hot potato because cat owners are often a one-eyed bunch who hysterically object to any potential consequences for Tiddles nuisance behaviour. The problem for New Zealand law making is that we have one of the highest cat ownership rates in the world, if not #1, and I can just imagine any government being highly reluctant to pass a bill clamping down on cat owners when probably more than half the voting population would object!

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## Bill999

> Ive run into the problem of my dogs catching wandering cats in our property it certainly isnt a positive step towards friendly neighbour relations. I always remember this article from a few years back because of the interview with the cat owner
> 
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/870...o-his-backyard





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Boar Freak

> Property is pretty broadly defined in the Crimes Act, so S269 could apply. Cats have common law rights of trespass and are also considered property under common law. 
> 
> I neither use, or allow my cats to be used to annoy (annoy hasn’t yet been criminalised by our dear leader) or cause damage, regardless, what the cat does is not likely to be something I am liable for (common law again) though I do take steps to mitigate the risk of the cat doing damage.


Unless you discharge a firearm in an annoying way , see Arms Act 1983 No44 section 48b.
I see this whole cats trespassing thing in a different way.
We are in a process of setting up a decent size joint QE2 covenant with a couple of our neighbours, about 106 acres.  We invested a good amount of time and money into this project to protect the native fauna and flora on our land, so did QE2. So as far as I can see in our case someone else's property is causing damage in our property(the crowns property) so we are taking steps to mitigate the risk of loosing protected species. We are required to have a pest management plan and control all species that do not belong here (mainly rats and possums). I am aware of stomach contents studies both here and other countries where I have been involved with wildlife management. I agree that rodents will be the dominant part of those research findings but the amount of NZ native species is still significant enough for me to care . NZ got about 1.1-1.2M pet cats, lets say they only kill one native animal each a year, that is a large amount of wildlife lost. Than add to that the unknown number of ferals , some say around 200,000.
I will give a free get out of jail (cage trap)card for each animal that has a collar or microchip (I have a reader) the first time, trip down to animal control then owner can pay to release the animal from there. Late night meetings during rabbit control usually have a different outcome. 
We are lucky to live far away enough from town to not have too many issues. Most people around here don't have cats, the ones that do got theirs microchipped and collared.

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## Flyblown

Well, the old fella that shot the cat on the golf club grounds got away with it no prosecution. Needless to say the justice for vinny the cat Facebook group is apoplectic. The cats owner said:

_The police advised me today that unfortunately they can't take the matter any further in terms of seeking a prosecution.  They have spent weeks looking at all possible angles, looking through legislation/laws, going through case law and thoroughly investigating all possible options, with assistance from a detective, and talking to prosecutions, but have been unable to establish a case that satisfies the requirements of the prosecution team.  It wasn't for lack of trying, and the officers who worked on the case are both cat owners and have no involvement with the golf club._

_The golf club have apparently changed their pest control practices to exclude shooting cats and some time after lockdown ends I'll be meeting with them, probably at the police station, to find out exactly what their new policy toward cats is._

_The shooter apparently feels bad about what has happened, and says he never intended to shoot a pet cat.  I don't think I'll ever believe him though.
_

Theres a backstory to this. The cat owner (Geoff) is a cat nut who has multiple cats that come and go, lots of rehoming of strays and so on. One of those community cat people. At any one time he has 8 or 9, sometimes more, sometimes less, and they are free to come and go as they please. I have a big problem with that. Something that hasnt helped him is that he has in the past posted several photos of the birds that his cats catch in the bush between him and the golf club. None too bright Geoff. The cat was shot a good distance away from his house. Definitely not in his backyard as originally intimated. 

Word is some of the locals nearby are none too impressed with the burgeoning cat population in the north end of town. It seems that Geoffs cats breed like flies. Again, all stuff he freely shares with the world. 

So my take on it is that he has lost one cat out of a transient number of waifs and strays, and the more permanent residents as his place.

I would love to know how far the Police _really_ took this investigation. If they were unable to secure a case against the shooter to the satisfaction of the prosecutor, then maybe some of the case law that has been mentioned in this thread isnt as strong as was thought. Maybe theyre just fobbing him off. Maybe the mood towards wandering cats has indeed shifted in favour of birdlife and fewer feral / stray / companion apex predators marauding around on private property and public land. Ultimately well probably never know.

Interesting case this, nothing is ever as it seems of course. Is it ever?

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## GWH

There's always two sides to a story and we only got to hear the cat owners story. It certainly seems it didnt quite happen as he indicated.  Ie not even a charge of careless use of a firearm (cat owner had said the rifle was discharged while pointing at residential housing).

Good outcome by the sounds.

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