# Firearms and Shooting > Projects and Home Builds >  Quality "everlasting" .410 shells

## Wingman

Before I even get started on this thread I would like to point out that @Micky Duck was totally responsible fore sending me down this rabbit hole. I was quite happy shooting factory loaded .410 ammo until this duck/pheasant season and I made mention that I was finding it harder to find decent .410 loads.  "Why dont you hand load some?" he said.... and then this happened... :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
My thread that got this started is here if you wish to see from the start. 

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....0g-walk-61464/

I shoot .410 over 12g and other sub bores for a few reasons, I like the light frame pointy little guns, they are still allowed to shoot lead over water, they are more challenging than a 12g and they are just flat out cool. 
The .410 is often thought of and referred to as a beginners shotgun, they are anything but. I would go as far as saying they are more of a professionals gun... dont believe me? Pick one up and go shoot some clays with one or use one on opening morning.. I love the challenges it throws over the 12g which I have hunted and competed well with for years, I actually quit shooting 12g 10 years ago, partly because I just dont like steel ammo and party because I got bored of it. 






There are some crazy tungsten pellets out there that extend the .410s range and will take out geese at 70yds+ with a, most onlookers would likely assume you were shooting a 10g with the killing range of these little guns when loaded with this stuff;

Prairiewind Decoys. 18 g/cc Tungsten Super Shot TSS - FREE SHIPPING

Personally I like to run lead and cant quite justify the cost of this unicorn fodder.
 I do tend to favour the heavier 3" loads with #4s and #6 shot. The only ammo I find sporadically in that loading is a 11/16oz Winchester Super X. 
Only a few manufacturers make the heaviest 3/4oz load and none are available in NZ. 


So out I went to pick up some 209 primers and some wads to see if I could replicate Winchesters 3/4oz load at 1125fps.
I pulled apart a few old 20g shells as I couldnt find anyone selling #4 or #5 lead shot either so robbed the shot from those for the trial. 
Id never loaded for any shotgun before which seems nuts as Ive never bought factory ammo for any of my centerfires sine I started out shooting. It was only a few loads in before I had already decided I hated loading plastic hulls and messing with crimps etc. in all fairness I dont have any shotgun loading gear and  fair to say I wont be buying any either... I was just doing it all by hand after watching a few youtube  vids of some rednecks doing the same with a soft face hammer and a dowel. 




I managed to get a 3/4oz load sorted that gave me 1100fps with Alliant 300MP powder but my crimps were splitting and hulls were dead after about 3 loadings. 
Another issue was that all the .410 wads available in NZ were also too short for the 3" hulls so only about 2/3rds of the shot was held in the wad and the rest was exposed. 
I had a mate in USA post me a couple of bags of these long wads instead;

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/TP...tinfo/3224100/

They are made for loading steel shot but they will also hold a 3/4oz load of lead. 

Then  I got chasing brass .410 cases made by Magtech, I soon found they only made the 2.5" shells and only recommended for use with black powder and felt wads. 
I found guys using .444 marlin brass and fire forming .303 brass but this was even shorter so it would get my full house 3/4oz shot loads in them. 

So after a lot of researching various rimmed cases I stumbled across the 9.3x74R case. It was the full 3" and had good quality Norma brass available. The rim was a few thou thicker than the .410 dimension so they needed a slight skim in the lathe off the front surface to get the gun to close properly on them.

Rather than waste components fire forming them I decided to make some forming dies to size it up to the straight walled .410 shell. 

I made a s/s die with a tapered expander ball  to neck the brass up and remove the taper from the body and then a second stage blunt end expander ball to open up the lower section above the cup to have a nice tight fit with my new longer plastic wads. 





















Ignore the short brass in that pic, it was just a cut off .303 shell I was using to set up the expander ball diameter. 

This new die made easy work of opening up the Factory 9.3x74R brass in 3 steps,  neck and body expander, lower body expander and a pass through a .444 Marlin body die to true it all up to final dimensions.   







I even repurposed and old Redding die box and printed a new label for my flash new custom die set.  :Thumbsup: 

One final tool was needed and that was a punch to cut out some over shot cards, I spun up a piece of stainless steel an drilled a precise hole in the centre of it to punch out cards that were a tight press fit into the sized brass. I sharpened the outside edge and it works a treat. 
The card sits on top of the pellets and then the brass gets a roll crimp in a .444 marlin seater die which holds it all neatly in place. I will probably seal them with wax or glue once I get a load sorted for the field.  The card is also good for noting the shot size on top. 










My first test loads in these brass cases were very slow which was not unexpected, the same load that got me 1100fps in the plastic Winchester 3" hulls only got me a little over 700fps in the brass. The powder charge sits in a lager cup in the brass than it did in the plastic and I run large pistol primers not the big 209 shotgun primer so there are big variations in pressure output. I planned to up the charge until I reach the 1100fps in the brass too. 



But wait... then there was another problem....
No one has stock of #4, #5 or #6 lead shot in NZ and no one seemed interested in getting it as it is now a very low demand product that will be banned around water for everything other than .410 in 2021. 
This had me researching how to make my own lead shot. 

A quick trip to town, and I picked up a $10 s/s baking tray, $17 of car wash detergent and $22 of brass hydraulic fittings. 



About 20 mins later I had assembled my prototype shot maker.
I made a baffle slide from a piece of angle 6061 alloy and drilled three holes for the brass fittings. I drilled a 1mm hole in each end cap to act as a nozzle. from What I read the nozzle size needed to be 1/3 of the size of the required shot. I had decided to make #5 shot. 
The baffle is coated in a dry spray graphite to stop the molten lead sicking and pooling. 









The lead is recycled air rifle pellets from my pellet trap  which all goes in the pan and is melted by an LPG gas burner, as it all comes up to temp the lead finds its way out the little nozzles and hits the baffle slide which starts it rolling into a neat little ball before being quenched in the warm detergent. 
Why not water you ask?  The higher viscosity of the detergent slows the balls decent and keeps it round rather than teardrop shaped and cools it a little slower preventing whats known as popcorn shot that hollows out and deforms itself as it pops wildly in cold water.   








https://youtu.be/lPf7yV9ij3o


It took a couple of attempts to get good round shot but I managed to work out the kinks. 
I drilled a bunch of 3mm holes in the bottom of an old s/s bowl to use as a sorting screen which also worked well, about 2/3rds of the shot fell through and the rest I dumped back into the melting pot. 

The final stage was to through it in my tumbler for an hour with some graphite powder and out came some very shiny and smooth #5 lead shot. 







Finally some quality .410 loads that run about 30 to 40 cents per shot and brass that will last forever.
I will get some chrony work and test patterns done next week some time.

Thats right Micky duck.. it was all you! see what you went and made me do!  :Grin:

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## Sarvo

A perfectionist!!!!!
Also, someone with a lot of patience and skill
PS
I now own a 410 too - not flash UO like your but :-(

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## northdude

very clever  :Thumbsup:

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## Scout

You are a clever bugger alright, making that shot was cool, it looks good to .

I used the 9.3X74 cases for making magnum loads in a .45 Colt/410 survivor gun, had power & was more accurate !

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## 7mmwsm

Great write up. 
If another bit of plastic in the environment doesn't concern you, try coke bottles for your shot cap. More resistant to water than card, and you can see what is in there.

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## Moutere

You should start a YouTube channel, your fabricating threads are great !

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## Boaraxa

That’s amazing , full credit to you I really like how you overcame every problem, awesome.

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## matto1234

Is there anything you cant do mate? Bloody impressive well done

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## Woody

@Wingman. Thanks for a very interesting report. Congrats on your success too.
One question: Have you considered the possiblity of tungsten matrix shot which may be usable in older non steel-proof guns as well as modern guns? I would be interested in your thoughts on this.

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## 300CALMAN

you have just convinced me to get a 410

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## Dublin

Absolutely Brilliant mate!!! Great inspiration!

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## Dan88

Bloody clever!! Love seeing threads like this.
I reckon you could have a pretty good market here for brass .410 cases, a good little side hustle 

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## SixtyTen

I started off reading this somewhat interested as I have always liked 410s. I finished reading this post with my mouth wide open in amazement.

I didnt know that shot could be made that way, and full brass shotgun cases are just my kinda thing.

I foresee a 410 in my cabinet in the near future.

Very impressive, thanks for taking the time to photograph it and post.

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## Flyblown

Excellent innovation. Also makes me yearn for a .410 again. I realised when reading this that it's a full 32 years since I left mine in England when I left home, never saw it again and honestly couldn't tell you what happened to it. Same with my 12ga!

What do you expect the effective range for running hares to be?

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## tiroahunta

Pretty impressive. You gotta do what chu gotta do. Havent the skills or patience for that kind of stuff. 


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## Wingman

> Great write up. 
> If another bit of plastic in the environment doesn't concern you, try coke bottles for your shot cap. More resistant to water than card, and you can see what is in there.


Good plan.. Ill give that a go too  :Thumbsup:

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## Wingman

> They look way cooler than my .303 blowouts... Would you sell 25 cases?


I only bought 50 new Norma cases for myself.. cant see me using any more than that in a good few days out.
They are $135 per 50 from outdoor supplies. Not cheap but I doubt Ill ever need more. 
There was a guy selling 100 used cases here, but they are stored at his mates place and I got over waiting for him to visit to pick them up for me.. chase him up if you like

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....r-brass-55653/

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## Wingman

> @Wingman. Thanks for a very interesting report. Congrats on your success too.
> One question: Have you considered the possiblity of tungsten matrix shot which may be usable in older non steel-proof guns as well as modern guns? I would be interested in your thoughts on this.


Thanks mate, Ive never used it personally but if you can point me in the direction of a supplier or send me some Ill share my thoughts on it.
Hell Ill even try some depleted uranium if someone can send me some melted into tiny balls.. oh and a lead lined underwear and ammo pouch to match  :Grin:

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## Wingman

> Excellent innovation. Also makes me yearn for a .410 again. I realised when reading this that it's a full 32 years since I left mine in England when I left home, never saw it again and honestly couldn't tell you what happened to it. Same with my 12ga!
> 
> What do you expect the effective range for running hares to be?


As you know I tend to push the normal boundries with most things and the .410 has been no different. I treat mine like a 12g and run tight full chokes with heavier loads of larger lead than most people would. 50y on a hare is totally doable. Shot size matters for the longer shots, as always slower moving heavier shot kills better than fast moving small shot when you add range to the equation. 
 Will put up some test Pattens in a few days. 
I may load some fast moving lighter loads of #8 shot for rats and weasels that make the mistake of venturing into the chicken/duck paddock

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## Cordite

@Wingman You have a lathe so you can also drill out the primer pockets and use shotgun primers.

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## Wingman

I could but I see no real advantage over the large pistol primers and another couple of grain of powder. 
I cant see these pockets ever getting loose from such low pressure loads compared to the comparatively high pressure of a 9.3x74R load but if they got loose they could be opened up for 209s for sure

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## Micky Duck

hehehehehehehehehehehe I told you it was addictive.......just for grins n giggles try a couple of loads with the shot you were going to throw back into melting pot.....might make an awesome closer range spreader load.
your skills amaze me.

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## Wingman

> hehehehehehehehehehehe I told you it was addictive.......just for grins n giggles try a couple of loads with the shot you were going to throw back into melting pot.....might make an awesome closer range spreader load.
> your skills amaze me.


Cant say I havent enjoyed the project.. and love the fact that .22lr ammo is the only "factory loads" I now buy.
I have been using the rejected shot for chrono work so not a big deal. Its not that bad.. just some bigger stuff and miss shaped lumps where more than one have stuck together under the lead nozzle. 
I got it running sweet once I found the best angle for the baffle slide it was making very even and round shot.

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## Wingman

> I started off reading this somewhat interested as I have always liked 410s. I finished reading this post with my mouth wide open in amazement.
> 
> I didnt know that shot could be made that way, and full brass shotgun cases are just my kinda thing.
> 
> I foresee a 410 in my cabinet in the near future.
> 
> Very impressive, thanks for taking the time to photograph it and post.


Thanks mate.
Cant say I knew how to make lead shot before this venture either.. I thought you needed a 30 meter high tower with a screen dropper and a bunch of baffles before a water trough at the bottom as that is how they used to do it. 
The story goes that way back in the day a high old church with a lead roof burned down and one of the fire fighters found lead shot in their water puddles in the basement after fighting the blaze. 
Melbournes historic old shot tower is still an iconic part of its retail sector that is worth a visit. 

Heres a slowmo vid of the version I made which shows the shot forming before its quenched.  Just a heads up.. its 5 mins of what you see in the first 30 seconds but strangly memorizing like staring into a fire..

https://youtu.be/NY_PsL9bA_o

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## Wingman

Im on the lookout for an older .410g side by side if any one has one they would like to sell.
One of the old Belgium made folding hammer guns or similar would be a cool addition to my collection.

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## Scout

Had lots of 410's singles & a couple of those Belgium doubles back in the day & was after another recently but my buddy just talked me into a 28ga O/U 

Man some of that TSS shot would be fantastic in the 28ga to I bet ?

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## Micky Duck

look up heavi shot.....the figures on the tss etc are mind boggling...heavier than lead so using smaller shot sizes and ranges are stretched accordingly.... pity its so darn problamatic to get. it would silence all the critics of non toxic pretty darn quickly.

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## Wingman

I thought Id finish working up the 3/4oz load today so using only the one brass case I loaded 15.5gr of H110 which is 0.5gr over the 15gr book max in plastic hulls and put it over the chrono. It only gave 780fps, a very slight increase in velocity to the first test shot at 15gr but not much. I tapped the old primer out and reloaded it again with 16.5gr.  This was closer to my 1100fps goal



Same case again loaded with 16.8gr of H110.



So close.. 17gr in the same case and just as I was ready to head outside it started pissing down.. that one will have to wait but Im quietly confident. 

I have 8 loadings on that one piece of brass without any resizing and it still slips in and out of the chamber perfectly. The loads are such low pressure that the only movement of brass seems to be in the top 15mm so I cant foresee any sticky brass issues so no resizing is nessesary. 




While I waited for the rain to ease I thought I work on the brass some more.
Even after the 8 loads the small ring around the top from the old 9.3x74R shoulder was still visible so I spun them all up in the lathe and polished them out with some wet and dry paper. 





I then annealed the old neck section to relax the brass in its new form and soften it so the roll crimp doesnt end up splitting the mouths. 



Into the tumbler for a few hours now to remove the sizing wax as its a pain in the ass with the super fine H110 powder that resembles fine glitter.. and they will come out all bling bling

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## rugerman

Awesome great write up and pics.
Makes me want to get my safe queen 410 out and ping off a few rounds  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Micky Duck

so for grins n giggles...fill that was column up with #00 buckshot and try a pattern.
I was using rio 3" case
win 209 primer
14grns of win 296 powder
winchester wad
6x#0   buckshot
my lyman manual has 5x #00 in its 3" loads.

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## Micky Duck

so roughly $30 per lb.........a pound is how many onces???? at 1/2oz per load   that is how many loads and price per load is???
uncle google says 16oz per lb   so 32loads per pound
so 224 loads...so roughly $1 per load for the shot......thats on par with good loads.

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## Micky Duck

aha thats about the figures I came up with...going to be closer to $3 per pop   so really really interesting concept IF the big suppliers bring it in...heck if target products loaded it up as "super falcon" and did say an once in .12ga   of #8s   and 1/2oz of same in .410   and it sold at $1.50 per round  $40ish a box  I reckon it would be a goer...all them folk who bitch about steel would have NO excuse left...buy the other then....

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## Wingman

They are all done.. 



Ill do some patten tests once the weather settles. 
Interestingly I put one of the SuperX factory loads over the chrono today too, it shot at 1200fps in my 28" barrel.. claims 1135fps on the box.
While the tungsten shot interests me its not worth that kind of money. Ill be sticking with my home made lead shot.

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## Micky Duck

ooooooouuuuuhhh shiney......I like very much.

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## Wingman

I found a sheet of thin clear vinyl that works perfectly for punching out over shot cards

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## LJP

Why did i have to read this thread  :36 1 8:  Now I have the urge to own a .410 again. Have many very fond childhood memories of a boltaction 410 I had!

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## 300CALMAN

I have a single shot 410 incoming! Can't wait..

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## Moa Hunter

I have a full unopened bag of lead shot in the shed if anyone is interested. Will have to check but think it will be #4

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## 7mmwsm

> so for grins n giggles...fill that was column up with #00 buckshot and try a pattern.
> I was using rio 3" case
> win 209 primer
> 14grns of win 296 powder
> winchester wad
> 6x#0   buckshot
> my lyman manual has 5x #00 in its 3" loads.


Or a couple of 38/357 projectiles. But do your homework on weight etc first.

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## Micky Duck

> I have a full unopened bag of lead shot in the shed if anyone is interested. Will have to check but think it will be #4


wingman will be all over that like a rash....maybe.....maybe he likes rolling his own too much LOL.

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## Wingman

> I have a full unopened bag of lead shot in the shed if anyone is interested. Will have to check but think it will be #4


Yip Id be keen as If we could get it northbound without it costing a kidney in freight..

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## Wingman

> actually some lead on the yellow site up your way @Wingman .if wingman doesnt want your shot i will @Moa Hunter.


 @berg243 I have had my eye on the yellow sight for months and it only ever comes up in southland.. 
The only lead shot I can see on there at the moment is this.. also in southland;

https://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hun...ser_district=0

Do you have a link to the stuff you saw up here?

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## Moa Hunter

> actually some lead on the yellow site up your way @Wingman .if wingman doesnt want your shot i will @Moa Hunter.


I had a quick look this arvo. One bag of what looks like #5 CAC ( pronounced 'Cack'). A further search is required as these are boxes that haven't seen the light of day for fifteen years + there is a Lee Load all as well. Perhaps it can be re-bushed to 410 ??

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## Wingman

> sorry nth island stuff has dissapeared again that stuff you looking at is in quake city. the shot that i see every so often in nth island is in bags  , eagle brand i think.have a look at precisionreloading.com their plain lead seems ok price even being in us dollars the hevi shots a bit dearer just not game to ask shipping price maybe if enough reloaders got together might get a decent price on shipping.


Not interested in shipping lead across the globe as Ive done that before.. the only way to make that economical is by the container load.

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## Wingman

> I had a quick look this arvo. One bag of what looks like #5 CAC ( pronounced 'Cack'). A further search is required as these are boxes that haven't seen the light of day for fifteen years + there is a Lee Load all as well. Perhaps it can be re-bushed to 410 ??


Happy to take tje shot off your hands if we can get it here cheap enough.
Any one else closer to me got some old shot in the shed they would part with? #4s #5s or #6s

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## MSL

> Happy to take tje shot off your hands if we can get it here cheap enough.
> Any one else closer to me got some old shot in the shed they would part with? #4s #5s or #6s


Have you got a 6-32 tap?


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## Wingman

> Have you got a 6-32 tap?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Im pretty sure I did.. its missing in action.. I have a 5-40, 8-36 and 10-32

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## MSL

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## Wingman

Cool, what size is it?

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## MSL

#5 apparently 


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## GDMP

Have you tried reloading any of the Russian Barnaul steel .410 cases?.

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## Wingman

> Have you tried reloading any of the Russian Barnaul steel .410 cases?.


Nah I respect all my firearms too much to shoot steel in any of them.

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## Cordite

> Nah I respect all my firearms too much to shoot steel in any of them.


Barnaul don't produce or sell steel shot, some reasons given on this page.  

They make .410 and 12G reloadable metal cases which look like brass on the images, but could be washed steel.  I doubt they'd promise so many reloads in a steel case though.

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## Max Headroom

So, what's next, Suppressor and sub loads, a la "No Country For Old Men" ?

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## canross

Wow - very, very neat and informative! Thank you for posting the pics and info. Always cool to learn something.

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## Wingman

> So, what's next, Suppressor and sub loads, a la "No Country For Old Men" ?


Nah "been there done that".. on to another 6x45 project

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## GDMP

The Barnaul cartridges contain lead shot or lead slugs....its the cases themselves that are made from soft steel.I should think they would be reloadable and are a ready made case without having to actually make them....

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## Wingman

> The Barnaul cartridges contain lead shot or lead slugs....its the cases themselves that are made from soft steel.I should think they would be reloadable and are a ready made case without having to actually make them....


Yes I knew that and my comment stands. I dont shoot steel cases in any of my firearms. Brass only.
Same goes for steel shot..

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## nowool

i now consider you the .410 shotgun GOD!  any plans to market?

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## Wingman

> i now consider you the .410 shotgun GOD!  any plans to market?


Thank you my pagan friend..
No plans to market anything? I listed all parts used and where to get them if anyone else wants to use brass in their .410g bores. The brass can be fire formed from 9.3x74R and .444 Marlin, no dies are really needed.
The rim thickness is not an issue on the brass but some .410 chambers have a radius on the front side of the rim rather than square so the brass need to a radius to lock the action properly. This can be done in a lathe, drill press or even a cordless drill with a file and some fine sand paper. 

It doesnt need much, just basically enough to take the sharp top edge off.. pic is of an un-modded 9.3x74R case on the left, the middle one has had a radius filed and factory hull on right. The important part is that the action locks up fully.

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## Micky Duck

my old winchester single had deep rim recess and short firing pin....SOME fiocchi loads had primer recessed and it wouldnt fire them.... the bakail has no such issues. my insert doesnt either as mean as machinist turned it up perfectly.

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## Russian 22.

> Nah I respect all my firearms too much to shoot steel in any of them.


That is some fudd stuff. If it's steel proof or modern it can handle steel shotl and cases. 

Steel case is so cheaply loaded for factory ammo that you will actually save money in the long run by shooting steel case. More than enough for a new barrel.

Unless your dies can't handle it there's really no reason not to use them.

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## Wingman

Spent some time developing loads today as some more components turned up from USA. 
I fine tuned the load of H110 for a 1100fps with 3/4oz of #5 shot.






Also worked up a 11/16oz load with my new max wads.
Amazed how 0.1gr of H110 can make such a big difference in velocity in this little shot shell. 
I started low as there is no data out there for these wads in brass cases. 1.5gr above book max for Super X hulls got me on the right track much like I did for the 3/4oz load then I slowly walked it up to 1200fps by incroments of 0.1gr at a time (1200fps is the same as Super X factory 11/16oz 3" loads in my gun) 











Very punchy little load! I will pattern them both once I find a bit of cardboard big enough.

Loaded up 12 to fill my belt pouch for evening walks. 
The neighbor has a heap of pigeons on his stock feed pad at the moment too so I will go test them out in the next few days.

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## Tommy

@Wingman, how are you getting along with the skyrats at you neighbours place?

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## Wingman

> @Wingman, how are you getting along with the skyrats at you neighbours place?


he no longer has a problem...

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## Micky Duck

man I hoped you breasted them all out......heap of good eating there....was that all .410???? or did you break out the .12ga and clay loads???

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## Wingman

Nah I was just winding Tommy up, this was actually a mate of mine with his Edgun .25cal PCP.

I jumped 3 of them from the maize feed lot and the others never came back.



PS: I dont own a 12 gauge, they are for beginners  :Wink:

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## Tommy

Ahahahaha crack up

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## Micky Duck

there is video clip on the net with a fella taking ?doves in Argentina? with a bow and arrows.......puts a lot of shotgunners to shame.

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## Wingman

These guys normally get a free pass around my house but this one was pushing its luck at the base of my trees..
#4 roll ya owns put him down instantly

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## Wingman

Sharing the .410 love with another 300+ brass cases made this weekend

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## Smallfoot

I've been led astray by a gentleman who's formed a pile of .410 bore brass for me... so I've started on some black powder loads.

 - large pistol primer
 - a scoop of black powder (about 35-40gr)
 - 2mm stiff cardboard firmly pressed down
 - 5mm felt
 - a scoop of mongrel shot from the bucket (1/2oz)
 - 0.5mm card glued on top.

These'll be for shooting on close-in steel targets, so not fussed about good patterns, I'll have a crack with some good shot later.



I  also had a go at some smokeless loads with Win 296/H110 and 3/4oz #7 shot.  Had some trouble igniting the powder until I pushed a thick card over the powder - but couldn't get the chrony to read my shots, will have another crack next week.

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## Smallfoot

Couldn't work out how to edit the last post! Attachment 169573

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## Micky Duck

looks like fun.....I take it you HAVE TO use 1/2oz for the steel targets???? 3/4oz is just better in everyway.... it SHOULD work well with black powder as it wont be honking along.....but that said be aware the wee 410 is more sensitive to change than any other guage...all of mine have hated #6 shot with vengence but #4 lovely tight patterns...best of all is a mixture of all sorts of sizes....
look forward to seeing more of this....

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## Smallfoot

Nah, I was just being lazy using the same scoop, more is always better - plus I'm after fun, light loads with a big boom for kids to shoot.

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## Micky Duck

yip ok that makes sense....old black powder rule of thumb is same volume of powder to shot.... cant see any black powder load being hard kicker from what Ive seen in 45/70....60 grns home rolled is still mild as....feels like a 410 I have been known to say.

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## Wingman

> I  also had a go at some smokeless loads with Win 296/H110 and 3/4oz #7 shot.  Had some trouble igniting the powder until I pushed a thick card over the powder - but couldn't get the chrony to read my shots, will have another crack next week.


Yes the brass cases definitely needs a nitro card rammed over the powder to keep consistent ignition. Even when I use a plastic wad I still use a thick nitro card as well. 
Did you get a chance to try some cork tile wads?  Did you end up having to round off the front of the rim to get a good action lock up?

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## Smallfoot

The Cork tiles didn't punch out cleanly, they crumbled a lot - I'll need to make a thinner walled punch.

The action l locked up on about 80% of the shells, but I've rounded off all the rims so they're ready for any other shotgun.

My #7 didn't pattern well beyond 10m, so I've cut up a few old 12ga shells to try different shot sizes.

There's a lot more case capacity after the first firing, so room for a more felt buffer.

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## Wingman

All my 410s have patterned best with #4s and #5s. The 11/16oz load in the 3" long plastic wads pattern the best followed by the 3/4oz load with the felt wads.

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## Micky Duck

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...oads-that-WORK!


oh boy will this wee nugget of gold open a can of worms when @Wingman sees it......

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## Wingman

Ive been testing some 1 oz loads in the .410 3" brass, so happened to have the little shotty handy when this little guy appeared this morning. I have chickens and ducks sitting on eggs so it was double satisfying to flatten the little shit.

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## MSL

Thats a trophy 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## 300CALMAN

I hate those things, had to share a flat with a pet one once. Horrible

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## rambo-6mmrem

Ive fireformed 303 British to 410
Works great 
But a forming die is definitely a better way to do it

I form my 38/50 rem hepburn brass with just a 375H&H expander ball installed in my lee universal de cap die

I would do the same for 410 but lee dont make the right size expander ball

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## rambo-6mmrem

Ive been asked to make some for a mates bolt action garden gun 
410 will probably just load up some 38-50 brass (aka) 38-303 with forming loads and just fire them off

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## MSL

> I hate those things, had to share a flat with a pet one once. Horrible


A pet stoat?


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## Rich007

This is an awesome thread

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## No.3

> The Cork tiles didn't punch out cleanly, they crumbled a lot - I'll need to make a thinner walled punch.
> 
> The action l locked up on about 80% of the shells, but I've rounded off all the rims so they're ready for any other shotgun.
> 
> My #7 didn't pattern well beyond 10m, so I've cut up a few old 12ga shells to try different shot sizes.
> 
> There's a lot more case capacity after the first firing, so room for a more felt buffer.


Try gasket cork from an engineering outfit, it's more flexible and better for cutting...

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## Wingman

> A pet stoat?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I had a flatmate that was a  bit of a weasel once.. but pet stoat? Nope

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## mikee

whats the .410 in the stoat pic @Wingman

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## Wingman

> whats the .410 in the stoat pic @Wingman


It's a Yildiz Silah Sanayi, one if the higher grade modern Turks, light framed but full size gun with nice dark high grade Turkish walnut and laser engraved nickel finish

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## mikee

> It's a Yildiz Silah Sanayi, one if the higher grade modern Turks, light framed but full size gun with nice dark high grade Turkish walnut and laser engraved nickel finish


I'm in the market for something similar maybe. Would like a .410 or 28g but dont want the ali frame all the cheaper ones have @Wingman is the fram Ali or steel?

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## Wingman

> I'm in the market for something similar maybe. Would like a .410 or 28g but dont want the ali frame all the cheaper ones have @Wingman is the fram Ali or steel?


All steel. This one may be for sale in a couple of weeks if I manage to land the vintage s/s I'm chasing

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## Micky Duck

@Smallfoot  all the .410s Ive used HATE #7 with a passion....#6 nearly as bad..#8 however is great...and a mixture of allsorts the best of all. havent seen a 1/2oz load of #4s that didnt pattern well...could be the 1/2oz loads are contained inside the wad,the 3/4 oz have 1/3 of payload infront of wad petals.

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## Wingman

I shoot full choke in both barrels and run the Yanky custom tungsten stretch wads that hold a full 3/4oz within the wad, the trade off is the lack of wad cushioning so the lead pellets probably squash up and dont patern as well as what steel or toungsten would in the same wad.
I really only shoot #4 and #5 lead shot now as I like to shoot max range with the little .410 magnum. 
My latest experiment with 1oz #5 shot loads and a felt wad in this brass are cranking out at 1100fps and patterning as good as the 3/4oz in the plastic wads. Noticeably more recoil but a lot more lead in the patern. 

I was very impressed with the 11/16oz and 3/4oz  hot loads I used this duck season and pulled out some really long shots on birds bugging out of the back side of the pond. The longest shots were easy 75 yds and it dropped them clean. I got a nice double when I took my boy out and jumped the pond one evening, one nice head and neck shot and the other in the rear as it was quartering away.. I was supprised to see how many pellets were on the bird at 75yds and how they all penetrated to the vitals.
Picked up a few bonus hares on the walk home too

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## 300CALMAN

> A pet stoat?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


OK so I can't tell the difference between a Stoat and a Ferret, Weasels etc. If a Ferret is stinky and bites, a stoat can only be worse.

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## MSL

I cleared my trap line before school one morning, and there was the biggest nastiest blonde ferret I had ever seen, in an old lanes ace trap.  I dare not club him like I would a possum, as I feared his foot would break off and hed have me by the throat.  So I ran back home and grabbed the Brno mod 5, and ran back to dispatch it.  My older sister came along, as she was excited about the prospect of tanning a lovely ferret skin.  After about 20 mins of dry retching while trying to skin it, she gave up and had to have a bath to get the stink off.  My father thought it was hilarious, as he had suggested it wasnt such a good idea.  The stink was something else, and was hard to get rid of.

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## Black Rabbit

> Ive been testing some 1 oz loads in the .410 3" brass, so happened to have the little shotty handy when this little guy appeared this morning. I have chickens and ducks sitting on eggs so it was double satisfying to flatten the little shit.
> 
> Attachment 204196
> 
> Attachment 204197


If you could got more stoats, and make a soft tippet, I can help you to sell it for at least 1k dollars.

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## mikee

> All steel. This one may be for sale in a couple of weeks if I manage to land the vintage s/s I'm chasing


 @Wingman If you decide to sell it I may be interested depending on price, really looking for a sxs in 28ga but I dont have a 410 either  :Grin:

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## Jusepy

@Micky Duck
maaaaate ive just found this thread. What a following these guns have wow !

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## Wingman

I've recently restored a 100+ year old .410 folding poachers gun. It is the lightweight model with the skeleton buttstock and half octagonal barrel. Ive been on the hunt for the side by side model of this gun for some time but still havent found one. 




The bore is good but the firing pin was missing so I made a new one and repared/refinished the stock. 



These guns were designed to fit under a trench coat and were availablein 2", 2.5", and 3" chambers.  Unfortunatly this one is chambered in the now obsolete 2" which left me a couple of options. Rechamber it or make custom shells for it. 

I carefully measured the chamber length and cut one of my 3" brass cases down to 2" to fit. 
I also had a handfull of .444 marlin brass which fits perfect! 



I spent days researching historic 2" .410 loads on the net and in old books but drew a blank on even starter loads. All I found was info from 1917 stating they used very light payloads with black powder. No mention of velocity but my guess is they were subsonic.
Historically the 2-inch .410-bore carried 3/10 ounce of shot, but later commercial cartridge makers such as Elley made  3/8 ounce in a 2" paper case. 
That 3/8 ounce was also the original 2 1/2 inch paper case load.

I saw no reason not to try a 3/8oz load in my brass with H110 and a plastic wad with the petals cut back to suit.
Unfortunatly even after trying 3gr more than my 3" brass loads and a tight rammed nitro card I couldnt get them to propperly ignite. Just a small pop and the lead rolled out the bore with a lot of unburnt powder. Such a small amount of shot couldnt build enough pressure in the brass case loads with H110.
I decided to ditch the plastic wad for a couple of felt wads and up the lead load to a 1/2oz. 

These worked a treat once I found the right load of H110 that gave me 1200fps and a nice tight patern with #5 shot.



There is actually room for more pellets so I might just fill the case to capacity and change the charge to suit. 
It doesnt quite have the reach and payload of my other 3" through the full chokes but it's a fun little lightweight gun. I have some #9 lead shot to try in it that will be great on the   stoats and rats.

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## Micky Duck

are you glueing in the over shot wad...... that will help add a bit of pressure.

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## Wingman

> are you glueing in the over shot wad...... that will help add a bit of pressure.


No I'm not, the clear vinyl I'm using as the over shot card is about 2mm thick and slightly rubbery so is very tight to get in place and once seated  is much more robust than glued in cardboard. 
A faster powder would have probably worked but it just made no sense to develop such a light load and then use up my precious pistol powders which are not replaceable at the moment. 
The 2" case with felt wads can actually  almost fit a 11/16 load so I'll likely just go that direction and forget about trying to use plastic wads in this one.

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## Micky Duck

the win296 charge was/is the same for both the 1/2oz in 2 1/2  and 11/16th in 3" cases
the extra space is taken up by extra shot ....I have complete confidence you will work it out.

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## GDMP

Eley still make the 2" .410 cartridge......

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## Wingman

> Eley still make the 2" .410 cartridge......


got a link?

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## Wingman

> the win296 charge was/is the same for both the 1/2oz in 2 1/2  and 11/16th in 3" cases
> the extra space is taken up by extra shot ....I have complete confidence you will work it out.


Yes the powder charge weight is the same in most .410 loads, my brass works the same but needs about 3gr more than the book says for plastic hulls due to brass volume and large pistol primers instead of the lively 209s.  Win 296 is the same powder as H110. 

I have even managed to work out a full 1oz load in the 3" brass.

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## Peteforskeet

Is there any sense in cramming a light 12g load into a 410 case?
It can't pattern as well as a 20g or 12g  1oz load the shot column must be 50mm or more long?
Let alone firing it a small light gun,

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## Wingman

> Is there any sense in cramming a light 12g load into a 410 case?
> It can't pattern as well as a 20g or 12g  1oz load the shot column must be 50mm or more long?
> Let alone firing it a small light gun,


I would argue yes there is.. the biggest advantage is the nasty 4 letter word... Lead

Youd be supprised what great patterns you can get from a 3/4oz or 1oz long column of #5 shot through a full choke at long ranges. 
Recoil is a non event. No different to a 12ga trap load or 1oz 20g

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## jakewire

I've just read this, great story , great work, pics etc.
I guess though,  @Wingman, you'll be glad Micky didn't talk to you about the 800 nitro.

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## GDMP

> got a link?


Its on their website....

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## Micky Duck

> Is there any sense in cramming a light 12g load into a 410 case?
> It can't pattern as well as a 20g or 12g  1oz load the shot column must be 50mm or more long?
> Let alone firing it a small light gun,


hmmmm...well lets see.it you have a long shot string,and you aim too far infront,you will still kill bird...for a rabbit/hare or possum it matters not a hoot. in fact its only on a true passing bird it makes much difference. it matters not a hoot if pellets arrive at target 1/4 second apart if they still hitting.
folks sing praises of 28ga and curse the .410.both fireing same payload at same speed.... its all about patterning,and thats done on a flat board so stringing doesnt come into it.

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