# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  When will trade me sellers learn

## hunter308

That it is not safe to sell reloaded ammo for use in firearms other than the firearm the load was developed in. These guys are really risking their arses doing that especially if a round causes someone a serious injury. :Pissed Off:

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## R93

Not saying I agree with just anyone selling reloaded ammo but if it is loaded properly I dont see a problem. SAAMI spec cases with common projectiles seated correctly are easy to replicate and safe.
The Kaiser used to sell reloaded ammo and would never say where it came from exactly.

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## wiredkiwis

I saw that listing also... its been removed now anyway.
Not legal to sell it according to the arms code so far enough.
My version is a few years old and they spelled ammunition wrong under the heading.. "Reloading ammuntion" 
I guess it must be referring to 'munted'....

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## Chris

Always been illegal to sell reloaded ammo as far as I know & for the reasons already mentioned.

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## Dougie

> Always been illegal to sell reloaded ammo as far as I know & for the reasons already mentioned.


I was told by the MSC dude at my licencing meeting thingy that it is illegal to even GIVE reloads away. He said if you reload it, you fire it and no other (legal) option exists.

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## hunter308

I am only like that now after I had a reload blow up in my face and was reloaded by Mark Bridgeman the round was that fucking hot it jammed the bolt shut, the case head was firmly stuck in the bolt face and the case had to be tapped out of the face of the bolt to reveal the case head stamping was no longer there just a bright shiny surface, primer pocket had damned near expanded double its diameter and brass had flowed into the ejector hole, let alone the fucked extractor and chipped boltface. Before then I would fire anyones reloads if they were supplied with a rifle that I would be shooting and even costed me the confidence to fire my own for a while. Costed me a bloody nice rifle that incident which was a remington 788 in .243 and I had only bought it 3 days before hand and those loads were supplied with the rifle I was just lucky that the seller told me who did the loads.

The other part about buying reloads off trademe is how do we even know if the cases are necksized only therefore round not suitable to fire in any other rifle or FL sized to make them suitable for other chambers, is OAL suited for chamber of different rifle as all chambers are not exactly the same especially the throat there fore could end up with the ogive of the bullet being jammed hard into the lands, then there is the fact is the person a stoke it up till she cannot take any more or is the person a conservative reloader who would not go anywhere near book max. Just too much bloody variables to even consider when it comes to the welfare of your face and life. Once I start reloading and have another rifle again I won't even allow anyone to fire the rifle if I only have reloads on me unless I had a couple of factory rounds to spare.

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## Barefoot

Did you talk to Mark about it and if so what did he say?

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## Spook

> I am only like that now after I had a reload blow up in my face and was reloaded by Mark Bridgeman the round was that fucking hot it jammed the bolt shut, the case head was firmly stuck in the bolt face and the case had to be tapped out of the face of the bolt to reveal the case head stamping was no longer there just a bright shiny surface, primer pocket had damned near expanded double its diameter and brass had flowed into the ejector hole, let alone the fucked extractor and chipped boltface. Before then I would fire anyones reloads if they were supplied with a rifle that I would be shooting and even costed me the confidence to fire my own for a while. Costed me a bloody nice rifle that incident which was a remington 788 in .243 and I had only bought it 3 days before hand and those loads were supplied with the rifle I was just lucky that the seller told me who did the loads.
> 
> The other part about buying reloads off trademe is how do we even know if the cases are necksized only therefore round not suitable to fire in any other rifle or FL sized to make them suitable for other chambers, is OAL suited for chamber of different rifle as all chambers are not exactly the same especially the throat there fore could end up with the ogive of the bullet being jammed hard into the lands, then there is the fact is the person a stoke it up till she cannot take any more or is the person a conservative reloader who would not go anywhere near book max. Just too much bloody variables to even consider when it comes to the welfare of your face and life. Once I start reloading and have another rifle again I won't even allow anyone to fire the rifle if I only have reloads on me unless I had a couple of factory rounds to spare.


You are ready to put the knife into someone on the say-so of the person who sold you the ammo [illegal activity] and yet in your last sentence you say you don't trust your own reloading...just saying

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## hunter308

> Did you talk to Mark about it and if so what did he say?


I spoke to him the day it happened he admitted they were his loads and he didn't even offer to fix it at his cost. All he did was get his hammer out and belt the bolt open and destroyed the ammo.

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## hunter308

> You are ready to put the knife into someone on the say-so of the person who sold you the ammo [illegal activity] and yet in your last sentence you say you don't trust your own reloading...just saying



No spook I am saying if I fuck up on a powder charge I would rather it be me that gets hurt and not someone else. When I raised this at F&H without mentioning marks name four other members messaged me sharing the exact same experience and they were also .243's which were also damaged which he also did not want to fix or replace and they knew exactly who I was talking about so no knife in his back at all even H&F Taupo have had people say that they had rounds of his go chernobyl on them.

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## Bryan

Faaark thats not good at all Hunter308. Scary to think this is not a one off freak accident.  :Wtfsmilie:

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## Spook

You were lucky it was only a .243, had it been a 'real' gun it could have been mess mess mess. If, after the fuck ups you say happened, how come this person is still in business. Did you not think to strip the rest of the rounds to check loading?...before they were destroyed.

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## hunter308

At the time I had no bullet puller or scales and no reloading gear so could not check them myself because I had sold it all a few months earlier to pay off some debts, plus I was furious at the time and just wanted to get the rifle sorted as the incident happened in Taupo. He is still in business because many people praise his gunsmith work and his ammo and no one gets to hear the not very good things and if someone does mention these sorts of incidents too many people jump all over it and say they have had no issues and keep recommending him because they have had such a good run from his work.

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## R93

Not having a go here but I would like to know where it is said it is illegal to sell reloaded ammunition. I know it is done and there is supposed to be a licence but no one seems to know where to get one. ERMA?

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## Dougie

> Not having a go here but I would like to know where it is said it is illegal to sell reloaded ammunition. I know it is done and there is supposed to be a licence but no one seems to know where to get one. ERMA?


I've had a look and can't find anything either, hence my surprise when Mr Mountain Safety Council gave me a good finger waving.

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## hunter308

> Not having a go here but I would like to know where it is said it is illegal to sell reloaded ammunition. I know it is done and there is supposed to be a licence but no one seems to know where to get one. ERMA?


You have a good point, Probably falls into the category of gunsmithing as I know gunsmiths such as arthur cleland used to manufacture ammo quite some time ago and ammo manufacturing used to be part of gunsmithing from the understanding of a friend of my family who I class as an uncle pointed out to me a few years back as he is a qualified gunsmith that operated out of Tauranga and is also a former firearms officer who is now retired. In saying that there are many different takes and opinions regarding this area. Probably a question to a local manufacturer such as Belmont could answer this question appropriately with it being such a grey area of the firearms laws/act.

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## Spook

If I recall correctly there was a discussion held over not naming gunsmiths, good or bad, on this forum [makros ?]...the outcome was it was not to happen...I get really pissed off when people are named by someone hiding behind a computer screen with no real name showing, and that person has no chance of commenting on the situation...was it really necessary to name the reloader of the ammunition?

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## Spook

> I've had a look and can't find anything either, hence my surprise when Mr Mountain Safety Council gave me a good finger waving.


page 26 arms code

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## Dougie

> page 26 arms code


It just says to look at ERMA rules. Forgive me if I am wrong but I can't find much other than classifying what is a reload, can't see any laws about selling, gifting or firing rounds that were not loaded by the firer.

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## R93

> page 26 arms code


The arms code is not law but I am happy to be corrected on this.

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## Dougie

Good point Dave, Arms Act certainly is law. And again if you look at that page, it just redirects you to somewhere else anyway.

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## Dougie

> Good point Dave, Arms Act certainly is law. And again if you look at that page, it just redirects you to somewhere else anyway.


And a quick search of the Arms Code proves no result surrounding any information on reloading.

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## scottrods

so how come I can go to a dealer in chch and buy some shop loads?

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## Dougie

> so how come I can go to a dealer in chch and buy some shop loads?


Yeah, exactly....

I'm not trying to undermine the point about safety here but I don't appreciate stuff like this that is preached by MSC but there is no law behind it? People just believe what some volunteer with a name badge says when they are handing out licences. Ticks me off.

Even if this is law, hidden deep within some random act (I doubt it), it shouldn't be so hard to find. You can't prosecute people over a law that is near impossible to access. I have found the online legislation really helpful for many subjects and I just can't seem to find anything about reloading!!

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## Spook

..."it is unlawful to load or reload ammunition to sell or give away to another person". Seems straight forward to me.

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## R93

> so how come I can go to a dealer in chch and buy some shop loads?


Exactly my point as well. The Kaiser sells or did sell reloads. He is anal and I doubt he would break any laws.

So Dougie you can be charged under the arms code as law? I did not think it was a written law that you could be charged with as it is a code. You were charged under the act? 

I load ammo for a few people and have done for over 20yrs. I dont charge anything other than they buy dies and components required and they leave them with me. If they go elsewhere or have no use for me I keep the dies and components. Unlees they kick up a fuss and noone has yet.

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## Spook

> The arms code is not law but I am happy to be corrected on this.


Then what the hell is it?...paper it is made of is too tough to wipe my arse with.

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## Dougie

> Exactly my point as well. The Kaiser sells or did sell reloads. He is anal and I doubt he would break any laws.
> 
> So Dougie you can be charged under the arms code as law? I did not think it was a written law that you could be charged with as it is a code. You were charged under the act? 
> 
> I load ammo for a few people and have done for over 20yrs. I dont charge anything other than they buy dies and components required and they leave them with me. If they go elsewhere or have no use for me I keep the dies and components. Unlees they kick up a fuss and noone has yet.


Sorry, shitty wording. I meant that the Arms Act is law, I believe you could be charged under the Arms Act? For example Section 16 Unlawfuly importing a firearm without permit (although that is probably a shit example, I'm not sure there really would be a situation where that would happen - it would most likely be charged as an offence under the Customs and Excise Act as I am sure you'd be 'smuggling' if you didn't have a permit)

Get what I mean now?

And I am a good girl, I have never been charged for anything btw!

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## Dougie

> Then what the hell is it?...paper it is made of is too tough to wipe my arse with.


It's a code. Same as guidelines. Something to try to point you in the right direction. It is my understanding that you cannot be charged with not obiding to a code or guideline; it would be supported by an Act if it was a law.

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## Spook

> Exactly my point as well. The Kaiser sells or did sell reloads. He is anal and I doubt he would break any laws.
> 
> So Dougie you can be charged under the arms code as law? I did not think it was a written law that you could be charged with as it is a code. You were charged under the act? 
> 
> I load ammo for a few people and have done for over 20yrs. I dont charge anything other than they buy dies and components required and they leave them with me. If they go elsewhere or have no use for me I keep the dies and components. Unlees they kick up a fuss and noone has yet.


So...you are quite happy to ignore the conditions of your firearms license on one point...how many other points are you happy to ignore?

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## Spook

> It's a code. Same as guidelines. Something to try to point you in the right direction. It is my understanding that you cannot be charged with not obiding to a code or guideline; it would be supported by an Act if it was a law.


So...you say we should also ignore the road code?...love to see you run your theory past Mr Plod on either code.

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## Dougie

I'd not saying that they should be ignored. I am saying that if you ran a red light and were pulled over by a policeman, he would issue you a ticket under the Land Transport Act, not "the road code".

I also have no idea what you mean by the Mr Plod reference.

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## R93

> So...you are quite happy to ignore the conditions of your firearms license on one point...how many other points are you happy to ignore?


Really? Point out where I am breaking the law and I will revisit my activities, but FFS dont come off high and mighty and insinuate I am doing other things wrong. I have loaded ammo for  members of the police. I have enquired how to be licenced to cover my ass but no one can advise as to where or how, police included.

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## Spook

> Really? Point out where I am breaking the law and I will revisit my activities, but FFS dont come off high and mighty and insinuate I am doing other things wrong. I have loaded ammo for  members of the police. I have enquired how to be licenced to cover my ass but no one can advise as to where or how, police included.


page 26 of the arms code...read it...nothing high and mighty about it...loading ammo for members of the police does not make it "alright"

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## R93

> page 26 of the arms code...read it...nothing high and mighty about it...loading ammo for members of the police does not make it "alright"


I have read it. As previously stated it is a code. Point out to where it is in the act please. I have, as said, questioned the relavant police as to how and where I can get licenced and there is no such thing according to the advice I have been given. I cant do much more than that. 
The high and mighty reference was your stab at what other things I would be prepared to do against the code or act. A typical assumption of someone coming off high and mighty to me, considering one topic is being discussed.
However I will get something in writing from the police before I continue to load anymore ammo for mates or the like.

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## ishoot10s

> page 26 of the arms code...read it...nothing high and mighty about it...loading ammo for members of the police does not make it "alright"


Some recommendations in the Arms Code are not entirely backed up by the Arms Act. Whilst it is an offence under the Arms Act to supply any ammunition to someone who is not (a) the holder of a firearms licence or (b) a licensed dealer, the Arms Act makes no specific mention of reloads. However, they might be covered by another Act, such as the Hazardous Substances Transfer Regulations. 

The point is, the Arms Code is only a set of recommendations and it is entirely possible that some things the Code says are "illegal" are not in fact covered by any Acts and so are effectively loopholes open for exploit.

Ray.

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## distant stalker

> Some recommendations in the Arms Code are not entirely backed up by the Arms Act. Whilst it is an offence under the Arms Act to supply any ammunition to someone who is not (a) the holder of a firearms licence or (b) a licensed dealer, the Arms Act makes no specific mention of reloads. However, they might be covered by another Act, such as the Hazardous Substances Transfer Regulations. 
> 
> The point is, the Arms Code is only a set of recommendations and it is entirely possible that some things the Code says are "illegal" are not in fact covered by any Acts and so are effectively loopholes open for exploit.
> 
> Ray.


Well put, there are a lot of things within New Zeland that are suggested under codes or principals, it is best to remember it is the acts that provide the legislative backing for prosecution etc, codes etc give guidelines for conduct but the act brings the hammer in the court. At times codes/pricipals are not aligned with acts and things can be grey. At this point it is a subjective debate that would be hard to settle other than saying it is not evident in the arms act but is seen in the arms code. I'm not aware of any court cases relating to reloaded ammo in NZ, would be an interesting read if somebody could find one, see how the judge interpretted the situation

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## Dougie

Thanks guys, that was exactly what I was trying to explain!  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Rushy

Walks in, mutters something about "he only buys factory ammo anyway" then mutters "codes like rules are for the guidance of wisemen"  then saunters off looking for another thread.

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## CreepingDeath

Fuck ive braught literally thousand of handloaded rounds

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

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## jakewire

> Fuck ive braught literally thousand of handloaded rounds
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


So have I before I started to reload my own, I've used a gun shop and people who advertise just such activity specificly in hunting magazines.
I used to find most people who advertise load development will continue to reload for you.
Mind you I haven't looked for these ads for awhile, are they still about.
I have also given away my reloads when I have moved a rifle on, loads that have been taylored for that specific rifle.
Is this illegal?

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## Munsey

The" reloading room " in ch ch is registered or certified  reloader , I'll try find out more when I pick up my loads this week .

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## R93

> The" reloading room " in ch ch is registered or certified  reloader , I'll try find out more when I pick up my loads this week .


Ask to see proof Munsey. He says he is, yet I cant for the life of me find out where or who can licence you. I will happily get licenced if there is such a thing to cover the little I do.

Have they got your rifle and test firing it as well Munsey?

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## Munsey

> Ask to see proof Munsey. He says he is, yet I cant for the life of me find out where or who can licence you. I will happily get licenced if there is such a thing to cover the little I do.Have they got your rifle as well Munsey?


I'm trying to find his card and reloading data sheet he supplies , to see the wording of the" certified" reloader. He  has had my rifle ,this is a repeat prescription so to speak .  Don't quote me on this but have done some homework and am told you  have to be registered ( labour department ) just for the purpose of holding explosives , not reloading . But the amount of powder you hold for normal reloading is well under the threshold .

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## hunter308

What I am actually getting at is those who get rid of a rifle then go and sell the reloads that were designed for that rifle to other people whos rifle that the reloaded ammo they just bought was not developed in that is what I have an issue with.

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## Chicken

I was under the impression you could reload commercially if you had a dealers license?

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## R93

> I'm trying to find his card and reloading data sheet he supplies , to see the wording of the" certified" reloader. He  has had my rifle ,this is a repeat prescription so to speak .


When you collect your perscription can you ask where and how he was certified please??? Or if it is just under a gunsmithing thing. I have those credentials and if so I may be covered.

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## R93

> I was under the impression you could reload commercially if you had a dealers license?


Thats worth investigating.

Edit: Had a mans browse thru the act and could see nothing referring to dealers and reloading?

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## jim160

I beleive that if you dont follow or apply the arms code, they figure that you are not really fit and proper to have a licence as you dont follow general safety guidelines, the Police would probably look to revoke the firearms licence.

Its like storing ammunition, there is no specific offence relating to the security of the ammunition, but if you dont store it properly and safely, the Police will look to revoke the licence.  I have seen it done to a couple of people.

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## Barefoot

I believe the manufacture of ammunition will be covered by the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996 (and associated ammendements in 2001, 2005, etc).
Arms Act and Arms Regulations do not cover the manufacture of ammunition, only the sale to licence holders or unlicenced people.

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## Barefoot

Rushy 
I think the full quote deserves airing when it comes to reloading
*"Rules are for the obedience of the inexperienced and the guidance of wise men."* - Douglas Bader.

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## R93

> I believe the manufacture of ammunition will be covered by the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996 (and associated ammendements in 2001, 2005, etc).
> Arms Act and Arms Regulations do not cover the manufacture of ammunition, only the sale to licence holders or unlicenced people.


Got any confirmation on that BF? It would be good to find out how to become compliant, especially with all the butter wouldnt melt in their mouth types that are quick to point the finger around here :Grin:

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## Barefoot

No confirmation but I imagine an email to the EPA would get a yes or no. Ammo is considered hazard category 1.4S, safety ammunition.

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## R93

Cool thanks BT

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## distant stalker

I know a guy that said he's getting licensed I'll ask what he means by licensed and what's involved etc

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## R93

> I know a guy that said he's getting licensed I'll ask what he means by licensed and what's involved etc


Awesome, thanks HH that will be easier than my blindly fishing thru the web.

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## Spanners

NOONE can or will tell you what you need they keep referring you to someone else.
The old arms code used to say you needed a 'special licence' to sell reloaded ammo - however the Police had no idea of this 'special licence'

What I DO know, that you need a dealers licence to manufacture ammo (which is different from reloading - as the components are new)
You also have to comply with EPA, council zoning etc
This is where it gets messy, as depending on what and how much of what you have,  certified approved handler licence, hazardous substance location and site test certificate, resource consent etc

We're now sorted for manufacture  :Cool:

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## R93

So reloading some cartridges for a few mates will not justify getting all that or do you have to have a handler licence?

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## Spanners

> So reloading some cartridges for a few mates will not justify getting all that or do you have to have a handler licence?


I spose 'technically' you should, however......

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## R93

I will get something in writing from the police to cover my ass anyway. I have queried it with them and in several different areas and get the same answer. They dont know and cant see a problem unless it is a large commercial operation.

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## kiwijames

It will be covered under HSNO Dave. Fucked if Id even know where to start but it bet my left one you'll find something there. It will have changed when the Dangerous Goods Rules were taken over through HSNO. Im an approved handler for a bunch of chemicals and I'd be certain explosives would be in there too. Id also bet that there will be a threshold quantity you would require to require Approved Handler. Like 15+kg powder. This is typical for the likes of LPG and petrol so as to not make it an offence to fill your BBQ or lawnmower. 
Spanners and KG may fall into this catergory but I doubt many of us other mere mortals would :Thumbsup: 

I remember reading too (I think on FnH) that it pays to advise your insurance co. If you have more than a few kgs of powder it can void your house insurance.

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## R93

Cheers James I will try and find something. I have my DG for road and aviation up to certain classes. Mainly fuel.
I dont store or keep powder in the house so I am all good there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

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## 7mmsaum

I was advised in 2002 to do 5 things concerning making ammo availiable for sale.

To keep impeccably detailed records, to get an approved handler license, to have nothing stored at home, to consult my insurance company on the legalaties concerning saleable ammunition manufacture, and to manufacture ammo away from urban residential areas.
I made sure that i complied.

Am happy to answer any PMs on the subject.

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## walkabout

*You were lucky it was only a .243, had it been a 'real' gun* 

Tongue in cheek remark Spook???????????????

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## Spook

> *You were lucky it was only a .243, had it been a 'real' gun* 
> 
> Tongue in cheek remark Spook???????????????


Considering that the part comment was made about 10 days ago in a thread that since got side tracked, and your use of 15 ? marks I summise that it would not matter whether it was TIC or not. If there is a problem then I will move the comment to my WGAF filing system.

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## NRT

Allan Millers use to employ a reloader a few years ago Sid was his name ,got ammo off him know problems some of you folk a worse then old women.if you dont want reloads dont buy them .

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## Spanners

What about Belmont.. they 'manufacture' ammo using new components, they also use processed once fired brass, thus making them 'reloads'

So if you give a 'reloader' new brass, they are now 'manufacturing' ammo, and if its put in a Blue cardboard ammo box like a factory one with a sticker on it, how do they differ from say Hornady, Highland, Remington, Blackhills etc other than they are using single stage or progressive gear rather than automated machines.
Blackhills load on Dillons IIRC.

Those that wont buy 'reloads' but will buy 'factory' ammo in a cardboard box with a sticker on it?

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## lostlegend

this may not be what people are looking for as part of this thread, but i've been looking at getting my 17 years NZDF experience as an Armourer recognised in the real world.  As far as the manufacture of ammunion goes i've been told (by the head of the NZ society of Gunsmiths) that i need a dealers licence and it is reccomended that i obtain NZQA standard 9127 (Assemble ammunition using specialist equipment under supervision).  the standard references the following acts

Arms Act 1983;
Arms Regulations 1992;
Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act 1996;
Land Transport Act 1998

as stated at the start, not sure if this is what people are wanting but might be a starting place for people to get their skills recognised.

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## Rushy

Hey LL speak with the people at NZQA and NZDF to see whether you can get some or all of you time as an armourer to qualify toward units as "recognition of prior learning"

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## steven

I have an arms code in front of me which Im studying to get my licence.  Page 26 is the only reference I can see doesnt say its not allowed, in fact that a page it implies its OK as long as you meet other laws/regulations.  Things like you cannot store propelant powders (and I assume primer caps) in your house, that's easy I'll store them under my neighbours then....

;]

Seriously if you can point out an actual regulation/law as I cant find one. I looked at ERMA and smokeless powder doesnt need any further than you have to have a firearms licence.

Also a gun dealer in Wellington is selling reloaded ammo....he's full case resizing.

regards

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## Chris

Are you aware that the person that reloads the ammo is liable for any injury that may occur using it.
Its all about accountability.You sell your mate some of your reloads & he shoots himself in the foot with it.

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## steven

Chris, liable for any injury, I odnt believe so.  We have ACC, so as per say a car accident ACC pays for the personal injury. I am pretty sure its all encompassing, you cannot sue or claim off an individual.   Now if you did something wrong you may well face a criminal charge say the person dies from injury, or say civil damage costs (the gun explodes) via say the CGA if nothing else.

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## outdoorlad

I was talking to a guy at the range the other day who I know, who told me that earlier in the day a bloke had turned up with a rifle he'd just bought second hand & some reloads that came with it. He fired the first round off and the case head separated!! He asked Trev what he thought, and he suggested it might be a good idea to stop there!

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## steven

Re: Powder I did come across a comment that a council has proposed a bylaw to make limit powder below Govn legislation (5kg and not 15kg I think it was).  What worries me is that you think you are law abiding but unknown to you your friendly council says no. That also could have implications for your house / liability insurance....ie its voided as you were not obeying the [by-]law.  Ikky to say the least when different organisations have different standards, limits and rules and of course ignorance of the law is no defence.

 :Sad:

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## dogmatix

That was Dunedin City Council.

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## steven

@dogmatix, thanks. Yet apparantly 1 in 7 south islanders have a gun licence....that is some voting block to say no with.

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