# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Darwin is getting slow in his old age.

## steven

Toddler accidentally kills mother in Wal-mart | Stuff.co.nz

 :Wtfsmilie: 

I mean do people really need to carry concealed weapons in the USA?

----------


## Frogfeatures

Need ?  Probably not, want to, now's that's a different story entirely.
Quite why you'd carry a loaded pistol, with the safety off, in your purse God only knows
Still, she won't do it again.
Feel sorry for the kid.

----------


## Banana

Do people really need to wear seatbelts?

----------


## oneshot

or lock their doors at night.

----------


## Kscott

> Toddler accidentally kills mother in Wal-mart | Stuff.co.nz
> 
> 
> 
> I mean do people really need to carry concealed weapons in the USA?


It's the American mentality. Someone is out there to do you great harm and here's the ability to protect yourself. The real shame is some American's don't see just how fucked up their country has become, as extremism in violence by everyone is becoming the norm. 

Car jacking at the lights - better have a 357 in the car door. 
Home invasion - 12g loaded by the front door. 
Out supermarket shopping - have a loaded pistol in easy reach.

The pro-gunners say the increasing violence means someone with a gun is safer, the anti-gunners say the gun is causing the violence. And the rest of the world looks on and wonders why it's safer in Syria than Detroit.

I had a fascinating conversation with some Yanks in Florida last year over lunch at the local diner/lunch bar. They were all conceal carrying, all kept glancing to the door regularly, and all trained regularly for the 'what if' scenario - it's just a mentality that was hard for me to agree with. One was a former Army Ranger now professional shooter and instructor too.

----------


## Beavis

Nobody in the world needs to carry a gun, until you need to shoot someone. Americans just have the luxury of being given the option to legally do so.

----------


## P38

> Toddler accidentally kills mother in Wal-mart | Stuff.co.nz
> 
> 
> 
> I mean *do people really need to carry concealed weapons in the USA*?


steven

It is their Constitutional Right to Bear Arms (2nd amendment).

Some choose to uphold their rights and carry ....some don't.

Unfortunately people do need to carry concealed weapons in the USA and elsewhere for that matter, simply to protect themselves.

Having the right to carry a concealed weapon for protection and invoking your right to do so is one thing.

Carrying a loaded pistol in you handbag and allowing your 2 year old to play with it is another.

In this case she has paid for her stupidity with her life.

Cheers
Pete

----------


## stumpy

I was thinking about this yesterday , ... I have no prob with conceled carry or even open carry .... but one up the spout (if its a semi) is a little extreme , if it was a revolver then there is always one ready to go ..... and if its like mine , no safety then a pull on the trigger results in a boom .... its fukkin sad this has happened , that poor kid growing up will be scared for life ... killed their mom .... the purse should have been on mums shoulder , or elsewhere away from kids .... a few simple firearms rules were broken , and this is the result ....
happy 2015

----------


## P38

> It's the American mentality. Someone is out there to do you great harm and here's the ability to protect yourself. The real shame is some American's don't see just how fucked up their country has become, as extremism in violence by everyone is becoming the norm. 
> 
> Car jacking at the lights - better have a 357 in the car door. 
> Home invasion - 12g loaded by the front door. 
> Out supermarket shopping - have a loaded pistol in easy reach.
> 
> *The pro-gunners say the increasing violence means someone with a gun is safer, the anti-gunners say the gun is causing the violence.* And the rest of the world looks on and wonders why it's safer in Syria than Detroit.
> 
> I had a fascinating conversation with some Yanks in Florida last year over lunch at the local diner/lunch bar. They were all conceal carrying, all kept glancing to the door regularly, and all trained regularly for the 'what if' scenario - it's just a mentality that was hard for me to agree with. One was a former Army Ranger now professional shooter and instructor too.


Kscott

I disagree with the Pro-gunners here.

Someone with a gun is Not Safer.

However someone with a gun is less likely to become a Victim if they have the means to fight back if confronted by an aggressor. 
And aggressors, like all bullies, are less likely to confront you if they believe you may have the means and the determination to fight back.
Hence why open carry is becoming more popular.

And I strongly disagree with the Anti gunners

Guns aren't causing the violence.

People Are!

Cheers
Pete

----------


## TeRei

A client of mine said that the gun laws in the States are amazing as he did a 2.5 month tour thru on his Harley. No one is rude because you never know "if they are packing heat".He witnessed some scary incidents in family diners of thugs trying the tuff trick. Whammo the 45 gets pointed at the offender. Issue over.

----------


## Koshogi

> I was thinking about this yesterday , ... I have no prob with conceled carry or even open carry .... but one up the spout (if its a semi) is a little extreme


It is foolish to carry a firearm for defensive purposes which is not loaded. Do you think the Police would carry their pistols in condition 3? When you need your firearm in a potentially life threatening situation,  you do not want to be already at a disadvantage.

----------


## Koshogi

> A client of mine said that the gun laws in the States are amazing as he did a 2.5 month tour thru on his Harley. No one is rude


No one is rude in the states? Hahaha

----------


## stumpy

> It is foolish to carry a firearm for defensive purposes which is not loaded. Do you think the Police would carry their pistols in condition 3? When you need your firearm in a potentially life threatening situation,  you do not want to be already at a disadvantage.



from what I have seen of police with firearms , condition 3 may be the best for them ,.... situational awareness should be first , if it goes to amber rack the slide ....

----------


## Koshogi

> The pro-gunners say the increasing violence means someone with a gun is safer, the anti-gunners say the gun is causing the violence. And the rest of the world looks on and wonders why it's safer in Syria than Detroit.


Violence is not increasing,  it is decreasing. The US is at a 40 year low for violent crime. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html 

Gun crime has been dropping in the US (like everywhere else) since the 90s, which is when Americans started the push towards more CCW rights. Are they related? I would say they've helped, but wouldn't be the major factor. Correlation doesn't mean causation. 

The fact is though is that there are more guns in the USA than ever before and gun crime has fallen. Gun crime has many more factors than merely the availability of guns.

----------


## Koshogi

> from what I have seen of police with firearms , condition 3 may be the best for them ,.... situational awareness should be first , if it goes to amber rack the slide ....


It can go from yellow to black in the blink of an eye. 

If you carry a gun for a living,  it's loaded. 

I won't comment on the Israeli's technique. ...

----------


## gundoc

I have carried handguns for self-defense in various parts of the World.  They have always been fully loaded, either a revolver or a semi-auto.  Single-action autos (ie; M1911, etc) I have always carried cocked and locked.  D/A autos and revolvers have always been carried 'good to go'.  The US is basically a fairly polite society until you become a 'minority' interloper in various (predominantly poor) areas. Vigilance and confidence, coupled with sensible choices, have kept me from harm or having to reveal that I was carrying a weapon. Carrying one that is not ready for instant action is just plain stupid.  The alternative is only chosen by those that have a victim mentality, rather than confidence in their own ability to protect themselves or their family.  Such (fortunately rare) life-threatening events happen so fast that instant action is the deciding factor!

----------


## Kscott

> Violence is not increasing,  it is decreasing. The US is at a 40 year low for violent crime. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html 
> 
> Gun crime has been dropping in the US (like everywhere else) since the 90s, which is when Americans started the push towards more CCW rights. Are they related? I would say they've helped, but wouldn't be the major factor. Correlation doesn't mean causation. 
> 
> The fact is though is that there are more guns in the USA than ever before and gun crime has fallen. Gun crime has many more factors than merely the availability of guns.


The intensity of the violence has increased over the years, rather the actual numbers.

And for the USA, if a good guy carrying a gun can beat a bad guy carrying the gun, the USA should be the safest country in the world  :Grin: 

For a sheer numbers perspective, unfortunately this story is jut a blip on the radar.
Gun-death tally: Every American gun death since Newtown Sandy Hook shooting (INTERACTIVE).

Every icon is clickable to find out how/where they died. And that report ended Dec 2013.

We could go round and round in circles debating what happens in another country, but I'm very happy to live in good ol' NZ tbh  :Thumbsup:

----------


## stumpy

> I have carried handguns for self-defense in various parts of the World.  They have always been fully loaded, either a revolver or a semi-auto.  Single-action autos (ie; M1911, etc) I have always carried cocked and locked.  D/A autos and revolvers have always been carried 'good to go'.  The US is basically a fairly polite society until you become a 'minority' interloper in various (predominantly poor) areas. Vigilance and confidence, coupled with sensible choices, have kept me from harm or having to reveal that I was carrying a weapon. Carrying one that is not ready for instant action is just plain stupid.  The alternative is only chosen by those that have a victim mentality, rather than confidence in their own ability to protect themselves or their family.  Such (fortunately rare) life-threatening events happen so fast that instant action is the deciding factor!



victim mentality ? ....I fukkin hope that isn't aimed at me

----------


## Kiwi Sapper

> Violence is not increasing,  it is decreasing. The US is at a 40 year low for violent crime. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html ...........................


My immediate response is to show the date of your link.....*Published: May 23, 2011*I consider this irresponsible and if you are sincere, you should not use data 3 1/2 years old.

----------


## Jimmynostars

Funny thing about the "right to bear arms" is it's a throw back from Brittish occupation when they confiscated muskets etc.. from the general population - think Boston tea party era. 

Not really relevant in todays society - unfortunatly with such a large population changing laws , amnestys etc just wont work.

 I guess there's no relation between their liberal gun laws and their very high shooting rate then....

----------


## oneshot

I can see this thread getting ugly.

----------


## Koshogi

> My immediate response is to show the date of your link.....*Published: May 23, 2011*I consider this irresponsible and if you are sincere, you should not use data 3 1/2 years old.


So are you saying that the violent crime rates have not continued their downward trend since this 'old' 2011 article?

I wasn't using 'data', I was using an article from the NY Times as a reference point.

If you want data, here is a point taken from the overview from the most recent data collected by the FBI in their Uniform Crime Report 2013. 

_When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2013 estimated violent crime total was 12.3 percent below the 2009 level and 14.5 percent below the 2004 level._

FBI &mdash; Violent Crime

The article is still relevant irregardless of it being 3 years old.

----------


## Koshogi

> The intensity of the violence has increased over the years, rather the actual numbers.


That is purely subjective. Humans have always been incredibly violent. One only needs to read a history book or "the book" to see that. We just get to see it now in 1080p.

----------


## steven

> Do people really need to wear seatbelts?


The effect is NET though, so with a seat belt you dont tend to have a risk of ending up dead from using it, and it could save your life and/or reduce injury.

----------


## Koshogi

> and it could save your life and/or reduce injury.


One could say the same about CCW.

----------


## Kscott

Ultimately I'm very happy living in NZ  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Banana

> The effect is NET though, so with a seat belt you dont tend to have a risk of ending up dead from using it, and it could save your life and/or reduce injury.


Seatbelts can cause death, but they're more likely to save you than kill you.

Questioning CCW based on a single accident or even all the rare occasions where it has caused the death of the carrier and ignoring the lives saved/injury prevented by CCW, is like questioning seatbelts based on the tiny number of cases where they caused the death of the wearer.

----------


## Willie

Whether it is concealed or not doesn't matter a damn, you are the person responsible for the weapon and it should be in your command at all times. How the hell do you explain to a toddler by the way you killed your mother due to her stupidity.

----------


## Dundee

I heard a cop over there accidently shot his wife.

----------


## Koshogi

> I heard a cop over there accidently shot his wife.


I heard a hunter in New Zealand accidentally shot his mate.

----------


## Dundee

William E. McCollom, Georgia police chief, says he accidentally shot wife, officials say - CBS News

----------


## Colorado

In the Western US we just believe you can never have to many guns. Most accidents in the US leading to death are caused by first, prescription drugs, and second, automobiles. Guns are way down the list.

----------


## Banana

> I won a ( non transferable ) trip for 2 to  Orlando  Disneyland ............we didn't go ,wouldn't set foot in the place, Id rather visit Syria


Why?

----------


## Beavis

> Why?


Surely trolling

----------


## Toby

Have you ever been there or are you talking out your ass?

----------


## Willie

> Have you ever been there or are you talking out your ass?


What i hear from him is Waa waa, waa wa, wa wa waaa! Strange as that is the same as the teacher in Charlie Brown, which is American.
The saying 'if you keep your mouth shut at least people only think you are stupid, when you open it you just prove them correct' springs to mind. 
Hamsav you won't get car jacked, this is not The Terminator, like most places they are good people (I am so resisting the urge to say, that have been brain washed lol). Not everyone wants to steal from you, jack your car, or gang rape you.
Chill out and go get a beer fella.

----------


## Dundee

You could of given the tickets too one of us on the forum hamsav.  Not me though apparently I'm a nutter and can't leave this Country. :Grin:

----------


## Beaker

> You could of given the tickets too one of us on the forum hamsav.  Not me though apparently I'm a nutter and can't leave this Country.


This country or the country?

----------


## Banana

> 1stly I gotta say that my perception of life in the states is based mostly on what I see on telly news.


If the rest of the world based their perception of NZ off what they saw on the news, they'd think we're all a bunch of backward child beating neanderthals.

----------


## Beaker

I've been through 3 passports in the past 7 years, due to filling them. Many countries, great times and some interesting experiances. However i havent been to the states yet. Some by design and some by no option. I have meet and consider a few yanks mates. Most meet by work or them working where ive been. Some good people for sure. I've Also meet some pricks for the states, most tourists. Now the the % mix, is about the same as any other country.

I'd like to go for to go for the cheap shopping, some of the sights and to see the size of the dinner plates, but there is a few other places that are higher on the list.

The gun debate doesn't really concern me, as every country should do what they want and as a tourist you should respect therir right to run their country as they see fit. They also shouldn't have undue influence on our country either. Plus abide by our rules/norms  when here

----------


## EeeBees

Yep, we can go on and on about other countries' attitudes etc but what of our own, eh??  Lily white as a dried out heap of cowshit if you ask me...

----------


## steven

I object to being finger printed for on good reason, so I wont ever go there again or even pass through.

----------


## smidey

Has anyone been on YouTube and watched Jim jefferies comic routine about gun control? If not do so, you'll near wet yourself I reckon and what he had to say about it is what I'd like to say

Sent from my workbench

----------


## veitnamcam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP3HJVp3n9c

----------


## Banana

"Since the gun ban in 1996, there hasn't been a single massacre since"


 Childers Palace Fire - In June 2000, drifter and con-artist Robert Long started a fire at the Childers Palace backpackers hostel that killed 15 people.
 Monash University shooting - In October 2002, Huan Yun Xiang, a student, shot his classmates and teacher, killing two and injuring five.
 Churchill Fire - 10 confirmed deaths due to a deliberately lit fire. The fire was lit on 7 February 2009.
 2011 Hectorville siege - A mass shooting that took place on Friday, April 29, 2011, in Hectorville, South Australia. It began after a 39-year-old male,
  Donato Anthony Corbo, went on a shooting rampage, killing three people and wounding a child and two police officers, before being arrested by Special    Operations police after an eight-hour siege.
 Quakers Hill Nursing Home Fire - 10 confirmed and as many as 21 people may have died as a result of a deliberately lit fire in a Quakers Hill nursing home. The fire was lit early on 18 November 2011.
 Cairns stabbings - A woman stabbed 8 children to death on Friday, 2014, December 19, 2014, 7 of them were her own

----------


## smidey

> "Since the gun ban in 1996, there hasn't been a single massacre since"
> 
> 
>  Childers Palace Fire - In June 2000, drifter and con-artist Robert Long started a fire at the Childers Palace backpackers hostel that killed 15 people.
>  Monash University shooting - In October 2002, Huan Yun Xiang, a student, shot his classmates and teacher, killing two and injuring five.
>  Churchill Fire - 10 confirmed deaths due to a deliberately lit fire. The fire was lit on 7 February 2009.
>  2011 Hectorville siege - A mass shooting that took place on Friday, April 29, 2011, in Hectorville, South Australia. It began after a 39-year-old male,
>   Donato Anthony Corbo, went on a shooting rampage, killing three people and wounding a child and two police officers, before being arrested by Special    Operations police after an eight-hour siege.
>  Quakers Hill Nursing Home Fire - 10 confirmed and as many as 21 people may have died as a result of a deliberately lit fire in a Quakers Hill nursing home. The fire was lit early on 18 November 2011.
>  Cairns stabbings - A woman stabbed 8 children to death on Friday, 2014, December 19, 2014, 7 of them were her own


Is a comedy routine not a university lecture

Sent from my workbench

----------


## steven

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP3HJVp3n9c


Agree with him, I simply like guns, no bullsh*t on home defence or other crap, I just like shooting guns.

 :Thumbsup:

----------


## Banana

> Is a comedy routine not a university lecture
> 
> Sent from my workbench


And that's all it is.  Just about everything he said was based on lies, misinformation, twisted reasoning and a general lack of knowledge on the subject.  I mean his very first point, which his whole gun control argument/routine is based on, was a blatant lie.  He had a good point on the 2nd Amendment being exactly that, an amendment.

----------


## oneshot

Castle Doctrine Law or Stand your ground Law is what this country needs.

----------


## smidey

> And that's all it is.  Just about everything he said was based on lies, misinformation, twisted reasoning and a general lack of knowledge on the subject.  I mean his very first point, which his whole gun control argument/routine is based on, was a blatant lie.


and your point is?? i'll say it again....... it's a comedy show which means it isn't serious.

now i understand that laughter is not for you but there are many of us that enjoy it. chill out and watch his act on foreplay, you might learn something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5YCtTjalg4

----------


## Banana

> and your point is?? i'll say it again....... it's a comedy show which means it isn't serious.





> ...and what he had to say about it is what I'd like to say


Um, that.  You seem to have back tracked on your initial post.  

Yea, it's a comedy show. I found it fucking hilarious and laughed nearly the whole way through, but he's clearly trying to make a serious point with his routine and sway the audience to some degree.  From the sound of the audience in the clip, they were buying the bullshit he was dishing out.

----------


## smidey

haha so i refer to a comedy skit that makes it a serious statement? forget that, don't answer. i give up.

----------


## Banana

No, you mention his gun control routine and imply you agree with it, then later say it's just comedy and isn't serious.  What point are you trying to make?  You don't seem to be able to decide.

----------


## smidey

it's a joke, tough concept for you clearly but that's what happens on forums sometimes.

I'm not going to post any further about this with you.

----------


## Banana

Yes it's comedy, it's a joke, everyone realizes that and I'm not disputing that, please don't repeat it again.  I found it hilarious, so you can stop trying to make out I'm some caveman that doesn't understand humor.  

You mention Jim's routine and say "what he had to say about it is what I'd like to say" (i.e. you agree with his viewpoint on the subject), when it's pointed out that Jim's viewpoint is based purely on bullshit and ignorance, you back track and try to save face by repeatedly saying 'it's just a joke, it's not serious', like that somehow defends you from agreeing with him.

Now if I was an arsehole, I could write something like 'Rational thought, a tough concept for you clearly', but I'm not, so I won't.

----------


## ebf

Banana, so I take it you're one of the 10% he mentions  :Grin: 

I actually though a lot of what he said made sense, comedy or not.

And can you please explain to me how firearms started those fires ? I'm very confused on that point...  :Psmiley:

----------


## Savage1

> Yes it's comedy, it's a joke, everyone realizes that and I'm not disputing that, please don't repeat it again.  I found it hilarious, so you can stop trying to make out I'm some caveman that doesn't understand humor.  
> 
> You mention Jim's routine and say "what he had to say about it is what I'd like to say" (i.e. you agree with his viewpoint on the subject), when it's pointed out that Jim's viewpoint is based purely on bullshit and ignorance, you back track and try to save face by repeatedly saying 'it's just a joke, it's not serious', like that somehow defends you from agreeing with him.
> 
> Now if I was an arsehole, I could write something like 'Rational thought, a tough concept for you clearly', but I'm not, so I won't.


But you did write it, quite clearly.

This thread was good until your little spat.

----------


## Banana

No, like I said, I found it very funny.  The stuff about the constitution and and the 2nd amendment made sense, but a lot of the firearms stuff didn't (to me anyway), and that's to be expected, it's coming from a guy who admittedly hates guns and probably has no experience with them.

Where in the definition of massacre does it include that it had to be caused by a firearm?

----------


## Beavis

Fires and stabbings just aren't as sexy in the news as shootings. Guns strike a political cord in people.

----------


## steven

> haha so i refer to a comedy skit that makes it a serious statement? forget that, don't answer. i give up.


Problem is musicians and actors etc often try to make political statements through their art, which makes them "serious" as they carry more weight than just an ordinary Joe Blogs.    What is also a worry is that they can say any un-substantiated bull** they want and the other side has no right to reply on an equal footing.

I think there is a lot of peoples fear of the unknown being utilised by some to get what they want no matter the logic or fairness of the issue.

----------


## Banana

> But you did write it, quite clearly.
> 
> This thread was good until your little spat.


I rearranged an insult he used on me (twice) to reflect my feelings on his posts, and tried to make the point that only arseholes need to resort to insults.  No doubt there's a nicer way I could have put it, but I can't edit now.

----------


## ebf

> Where in the definition of massacre does it include that it had to be caused by a firearm?


Ye gawds, you're not studying to be a lawyer are you ?  :Grin: 

This is a thread about a *gun* related death.

The youtube clip was specifically about *gun* control, and I think it is safe to say that he meant *gun* related massacre, they did afterall introduce *gun* controls in Aus, not bans on matches, knives, motor vehicles, tsunamis or a horde of other things that may or may not cause massacres.

And if you think only people that are ignorant about firearms are pro gun-control I think you make a big mistake. I have been around firearms most my life, used them in military service, carried a concealed firearm for many years, and have competed in several competitive shooting codes, yet I am not opposed to gun control or firearm restrictions...

----------


## Kscott

> I can see this thread getting ugly.


 :Thumbsup:

----------


## jakewire

If it gets just an smigum worse, I'll edit it.

Definition of Smigum =  Bugger all, not much , a very small amount.

----------


## Banana

> Ye gawds, you're not studying to be a lawyer are you ? 
> 
> This is a thread about a *gun* related death.
> 
> The youtube clip was specifically about *gun* control, and I think it is safe to say that he meant *gun* related massacre, they did afterall introduce *gun* controls in Aus, not bans on matches, knives, motor vehicles, tsunamis or a horde of other things that may or may not cause massacres.
> 
> And if you think only people that are ignorant about firearms are pro gun-control I think you make a big mistake. I have been around firearms most my life, used them in military service, carried a concealed firearm for many years, and have competed in several competitive shooting codes, yet I am not opposed to gun control or firearm restrictions...


Maybe he did mean gun related massacres, but that's not what he said.  Even if it's what he meant it still wasn't true.  

I don't think that only people that are ignorant about firearms are pro gun-control, but I do think a lot of people that are pro gun-control have based their views on ignorance.  
If you've gathered the information, have experience, then reach a conclusion based on those things, your opinion is very valid, whatever it is.

----------


## EeeBees

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP3HJVp3n9c


That is fantastic...love the bit about the musket...

He did get it abit wrong...they banned semi autos...

----------


## Gibo

Jim Jeffries looks like another Jim I know  :Have A Nice Day:  @Pointer  :Psmiley:

----------


## grunzter

My early impressions of all americans were typical vietnam movie GI's and southern red necks you see in movies mixed in with everything you see on TV.

When i first went to mainland USA (not the Island in the pacific), I went to Greeley Colorado, and everyone i met was exceptionally nice and polite, wow, friendlier place than NZ!
I decided one weekend to pop up to the Rocky mountains to visit the Stanley Hotel where the movie the Shining was filmed, just in case there were some real Crazies up there, nope, still full of nice kind people...

Oh how my perception of Yanks changed!

Maybe all the nutters are in Hollywood...
Grant

----------


## Sasquatch

That Jim Jeffries skit was funny & it made me laugh, however he has a notable political agenda on gun control. It's a shame most of it was misinformation & lies. For example there was a huge increase in gun crimes since the semi-auto ban in Australia. According to stats it was up 60% since the ban

----------


## ebf

> It's a shame most of it was misinformation & lies. For example there was a huge increase in gun crimes since the semi-auto ban in Australia. According to stats it was up 60% since the ban


Can you please post a link to the source of your info ?

I seem to be getting some different info...

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia

Total Aus gun deaths 1996 : 516
Total Aus gun deaths 2011 : 188

And here:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_p...s_in_Australia

----------


## Beavis

I believe gun related death in Australia was declining before the bans. Gun related crime may well have increased. Just like in the US, gun violence has been measurably declining for some time, despite legislation for or against guns, and what the doomsayers report.

----------


## ebf

> I believe gun related death in Australia was declining before the bans. Gun related crime may well have increased.


Your first sentence is not supported by hard facts Beavis.

If you look at total gun deaths per 100k population from 79 thru to 96, it was always close to or above 3, with a peak of 4.5 in 82.

Since the ban in 96, total gun deaths has shown as rapid and increased decline. It dropped below 2 in 98, and was below 1 in 2011.

If you can find any stats or numbers to back your claims about gun crime, I'd be interested in seeing them.

Also, how can gun related crime increase but gun related violence decrease. Please explain that to me...

----------


## big_foot

I tend to stick to "read only" when threads get heavy but the readings going around in circles a little bit, I like some had a good laugh at the skit but thats all it was worth. He had an obvious political agenda that he was trying to push with a bit of humour, trying to do the old "spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down".

When stricter gun controls are introduced gun crime goes up, purely because what was ok yesterday is not ok today, this is despite the fact that gun related violence goes down. Im not good at explaining this shit (hence the first sentence in this post) but can you catch my drift?

----------


## Beavis

http://www.ic-wish.org/Gun%20related...20happened.pdf statistics http://www.ic-wish.org/Fact%20sheet%...per%20Year.pdf

 Crime and death/homicide/whatever you will (violence is a pretty broad term), aren't always the same thing. My statement that gun crime may have increased is not based on any facts I have read, rather a casual comment.

----------


## kiwijames

> My early impressions of all americans were typical vietnam movie GI's and southern red necks you see in movies mixed in with everything you see on TV.
> 
> When i first went to mainland USA (not the Island in the pacific), I went to Greeley Colorado, and everyone i met was exceptionally nice and polite, wow, friendlier place than NZ!
> I decided one weekend to pop up to the Rocky mountains to visit the Stanley Hotel where the movie the Shining was filmed, just in case there were some real Crazies up there, nope, still full of nice kind people...
> 
> Oh how my perception of Yanks changed!
> 
> Maybe all the nutters are in Hollywood...
> Grant
> Attachment 32797Attachment 32798


I  spent a lot of time in Florida (the supposed craziest state of the lot) and the people there were............nice. Nicer than nice really. 

I travelled down the PCH from Washington to California and the people were SO nice they did make the ones in Florida look less nice, but overall, all were nice, and polite, and courteous and well mannered and fun and lots of more niceness. 
I think they herd all the less nice ones onto cruise ships and send them south.

----------


## ebf

> When stricter gun controls are introduced gun crime goes up, purely because what was ok yesterday is not ok today, this is despite the fact that gun related violence goes down. Im not good at explaining this shit (hence the first sentence in this post) but can you catch my drift?


Ok  :Have A Nice Day:  Let's deal with this one, and then I need to spend some time drawing a picture to counter Beavis  :Grin: 

 @big_foot, yes, if you define "gun crime" purely as the infringement type offences that occur after a law change (being in possesion of an "E-cat" magazine etc), then I imagine you might well see a rise. And even more so if the law is drafted poorly. Also depends on how heavy handed the police are in enforcing those regulations. So I don't see how that tells us much at all... Let's be honest with each other, that is a bit of a "bullshit and lies" type argument that the pro-control guys get accused of... no ?  :Psmiley: 

In stats, the one thing which is really easy to measure all over the world is DEATH. Very hard for the police to fudge the numbers because other sectors like doctors, coroners etc become involved. There is also not really a chance of people not reporting it like what happens with other types of crimes... And we don't look at the raw numbers, but rather at the numbers expressed in terms of population, because that gives us a way to measure one country to another.

----------


## big_foot

> Ok  Let's deal with this one, and then I need to spend some time drawing a picture to counter Beavis 
> 
>  @big_foot, yes, if you define "gun crime" purely as the infringement type offences that occur after a law change (being in possesion of an "E-cat" magazine etc), then I imagine you might well see a rise. And even more so if the law is drafted poorly. Also depends on how heavy handed the police are in enforcing those regulations. So I don't see how that tells us much at all... Let's be honest with each other, that is a bit of a "bullshit and lies" type argument that the pro-control guys get accused of... no ? 
> 
> In stats, the one thing which is really easy to measure all over the world is DEATH. Very hard for the police to fudge the numbers because other sectors like doctors, coroners etc become involved. There is also not really a chance of people not reporting it like what happens with other types of crimes... And we don't look at the raw numbers, but rather at the numbers expressed in terms of population, because that gives us a way to measure one country to another.


I fully agree, I only waded in because it seems one party is arguing that gun crime is going up and the other was arguing that gun violence was going down, both of which could very well be true.

I take random stats that people use to support their argument with a grain of salt, heard a cracker the other day apparently wearing a bicycle helmet increases the injury rate..wtf   are they counting the fat kid catching his 2nd chin in the buckle and little girl getting her hair caught in the padding velcro :Thumbsup:

----------


## veitnamcam

> I take random stats that people use to support their argument with a grain of salt, heard a cracker the other day apparently wearing a bicycle helmet increases the injury rate..wtf   are they counting the fat kid catching his 2nd chin in the buckle and little girl getting her hair caught in the padding velcro


That was on the telly the other day, some cycling groups are trying to get the law reversed.

----------


## ebf

Here ya go Beavis:

Had to rework the deaths/100k to fit on the same X scale, so multiplied it by 100 (per 10M).

----------


## Jimmynostars

You can use stats to justify almost anything.... 98% of people know this......

----------


## big_foot

> That was on the telly the other day, some cycling groups are trying to get the law reversed.


Yea, I havent done any research on the subject but seems like a pretty backwards move, there other argument was that a lot of people dont like to cycle because wearing a helmet puts them off...... :Wtfsmilie:  seriously wtf do these people smoke

----------


## ebf

And then if we compare Aus to USA.

Numbers are not that important, different societies have different rates, but look at the slope of the line...

----------


## Toby

1980 looks like a great year

----------


## Beavis

> Here ya go Beavis:
> 
> Had to rework the deaths/100k to fit on the same X scale, so multiplied it by 100 (per 10M).
> 
> Attachment 32802


Does that not basically mirror the statistics proposed by "wish"? I could imagine that other factors like increasing population and a changing of culture such as a move towards urbanisation and less overall exposure over all to shooting might play a part. It would also be interesting but probably impossible to see who the victims of gun homicide were. Were there more criminals killing each other in previous decades? Have firearm users evolved into a more safety conscious entity resulting in fewer unintentional firearm killings? Has the reduced availability of guns made an impact on overall suicide rates,  or just ones involving one specific method (guns)?

All questions which are impossible to answer looking at raw numbers.

----------


## Spudattack

> 1980 looks like a great year


That is the year I was born, shit got real....

----------


## ebf

Beavis, the raw data might be the same, but the interpretation sure as hell is not  :Grin: 

"Wish" (a anti gun control lobby group by the way), tried to somehow prove that gun deaths in Aus are not decreasing, or that the decrease is not related to legislation implemented in 1996. The way they try to do this is by referring to the "difference" in yearly numbers. All that this proves is that the decrease is roughly linear...

Take a look at the Aus/USA graph. See what happens immediately following 1996 ? Those numbers are per 100k population, and compensate for increases or decreases in population. The anti control groups claim that "gun-crime" is falling in the USA. In my book the most serious consequence of gun crime, gun negligence etc is death. The green line seems to be fairly flat to me...

----------


## BRADS

This is a shit thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## Ryan

> This is a shit thread.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agree or disagree with the topic being discussed but at least for once it hasn't degenerated into another round of handbags at dawn.

----------


## EeeBees

@Beavis, in the instance of Australia, I do not think it is necessarily a reduced availability of firearms...it is just that semi-automatic guns are no longer in the mix.

----------


## EeeBees

Brads, it might be a shit thread but hey, I find it cool that we can discuss this matter...most of us on here have grown up with guns and learnt from early ages how to use  them and how to be safe with them...the psychology of it all is fascinating...shit thread, yes maybe you are right...13 people died on the roads this holiday period...I dont see anyone pushing for vehicles of personal use being banned...kind of ironic, methinks...

----------


## Koshogi

An interesting study on the effects of the Australian National Firearms Agreement.

_GUN LAWS AND SUDDEN DEATH
Did the Australian Firearms Legislation of 1996 Make a Difference?
JEANINE BAKER and SAMARA MCPHEDRAN_
http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/40534...aper_40534.pdf

----------


## Beavis

> Beavis, the raw data might be the same, but the interpretation sure as hell is not 
> 
> "Wish" (a anti gun control lobby group by the way), tried to somehow prove that gun deaths in Aus are not decreasing, or that the decrease is not related to legislation implemented in 1996. The way they try to do this is by referring to the "difference" in yearly numbers. All that this proves is that the decrease is roughly linear...
> 
> Take a look at the Aus/USA graph. See what happens immediately following 1996 ? Those numbers are per 100k population, and compensate for increases or decreases in population. The anti control groups claim that "gun-crime" is falling in the USA. In my book the most serious consequence of gun crime, gun negligence etc is death. The green line seems to be fairly flat to me...


Not sure where you got the statistics regarding the USA but the Berau of Justice Statistics found that firearm homicide decreased by 39% between 1993 and 2011.

Non fatal firearm violence declined by 69% in the same period.

I figure those are pretty significant reductions. Neither pro nor anti gun laws really explain it. It was a pretty tumultuous period politically for firearms.

----------


## Sasquatch

ebf I apologise I can't seem to find the report of that I had read and what I can find now seems to be from an obscure site with no reliable source whatsoever so I'm going to say it was bogus. But I do agree with what you have said. Gun deaths have declined, gun crime however is probably a different story but as you have mentioned earlier - who really cares?

On the topic of gun control though, which what I'm about to say might be a bit of a downer & I apologise on making a shit thread, even shitter... (We should really all be out shooting as much as poss and talkin about it) But lets be honest here ebf, it's not hard to see where the trends are taking us with gun control. Look at the stringent gun laws for AUS/NZ/UK & some states in the US. In the next 20 or so years where do you see NZ in it? We are unquestionably a guinea pig country and things are gradually tightening with gun control. I say gradual because it's exactly that, we are conforming to a slow process of gradualism.

The politicians along with the gun grabbers all lobby together to form stricter and stricter regulations on firearms. You regulate something and keep regulating it till it becomes redundant, unwanted or just plain useless. Take the "free standing pistol grips" for example?

Anyway, that's it for me rant over. Fire away

----------


## EeeBees

> I say gradual because it's exactly that, we are conforming to a slow process of gradualism.


Excellent, @Sasquatch...

----------


## Beavis

> @Beavis, in the instance of Australia, I do not think it is necessarily a reduced availability of firearms...it is just that semi-automatic guns are no longer in the mix.


Not quite sure what you meant but if it's a proposed correlation  between deaths and availability,  I would say look at us - shit loads of semi's,  not much death. Don't think I actually know a FAL holder who doesn't own a semi auto.

----------


## Dundee

> This is a shit thread.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just add 1080 then it will be terminated :Psmiley:

----------


## res

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it Australia has changed the way it counts gun deaths at some point since the law change and self harm is no longer counted. 

How about comparing the trends with another country with a similar culture and gun background as the USA hardly counts, I don't know ,but how about nz-we still have semis so what has our stats done one corrected for the different methodology.     

I think the vid is a pile of shit to sway the uniformed, just as some in this thread are making very uninformed comments on a unrelated subject.-let alone the one at hand. 

Having a degree in stats I find most of the ones in this thread worthless as presented from there sources, not a comment about those who use them in the thread-they just went looking for something to support there argument-and on the big wide web you can find stats to support anything.

----------


## res

> Just add 1080 then it will be terminated


If only 1080 had worked that well on possums. 

Threads like this just keep coming up on forums, and tend to make life hard on admin regardless on where they personally stand

----------


## Beavis

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it Australia has changed the way it counts gun deaths at some point since the law change and self harm is no longer counted. 
> 
> How about comparing the trends with another country with a similar culture and gun background as the USA hardly counts, I don't know ,but how about nz-we still have semis so what has our stats done one corrected for the different methodology.     
> 
> I think the vid is a pile of shit to sway the uniformed, just as some in this thread are making very uninformed comments on a unrelated subject.-let alone the one at hand. 
> 
> Having a degree in stats I find most of the ones in this thread worthless as presented from there sources, not a comment about those who use them in the thread-they just went looking for something to support there argument-and on the big wide web you can find stats to support anything.


I figured the CDC, dept of justice etc would be fairly credible sources. As for Australian gun death...

----------


## jakewire

Yip.
Try an keep to the original theme[ish] please ladies and gentlemen, or just let it die a natural.

----------


## Dundee

it will die good night forumites :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:  past my bed time :ORLY:

----------


## Sidney

> Here ya go Beavis:
> 
> Had to rework the deaths/100k to fit on the same X scale, so multiplied it by 100 (per 10M).
> 
> Attachment 32802


It would appear to me that the trend was well established long before the aberation of Tasmania and the knee-jerk legislation that resulted.  That seems to be well born out by the research paper referenced a couple of posts above.

----------


## ebf

Yup, the paper that koshogi posted a link to was very interesting reading. Would help the debate a lot if there was more solid research as opposed to little snippits taken out of context just to support a particular side.

and res, yeah stats can be used to prove just about anything  :Grin: 

i prefer looking at long term graphs for trends. whenever words are attached to it for an interpretation, things can get pretty screwy...

take the 39% drop in homicides "factoid"... the year used as the start of that "fact" was 93, the rate per 100k in US was 7.07 (Krug, E G, K E Powell and L L Dahlberg. 1998. ‘Firearm-Related Deaths in the United States and 35 Other High- and Upper-Middle-Income Countries.’ International Journal of Epidemiology; Table 1 (27), p. 216. Atlanta: National Centre for Injury Prevention & Control, Centers for Disease Control & Prevention / CDC. 16 April.)

but then if you look at this (http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/co...f_gun_homicide), a picture paints a very different story...

if the link does not work, go to http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states, click on Gun Homicides, and then the chart link next to Rate / 100K.

----------


## steven

@ebf Looking at the OZ trend it was and has been clearly declining, so in 1996 there was a small extra dip, then back to long term trend.  So really the claim that the 1996 ban achieved a great deal is questionable to say the least in fact its probably negligable. 

The thing to do here is look at the actual stats for those 2 or 3 years and determine why.  So for instance if the decrease deaths were 90% attributed to suicide by gun but those ppl topped themselves by another method anyway they are still dead just not in the stats for guns "being responsible", ergo the law appears to may have achieved nothing.

The other stat is to put up NZ deaths over the same period to see if there is a correlation, even look at the state of the economy might reveal something.  Once done of course it cant be un-done.

=======
edit
=======
In fact if you take 87, 88 and 89 and trend it the decline is pretty close the the 1996-99 ban drop, so what happened in those 3 years?

----------


## Beavis

@ebf I'd be pretty skeptical of any statistics compiled by Alpers. Just as you would rightly be skeptical of the ones presented by WiSH

----------


## ebf

the chart citation is Alpers, the data it is based on is from the CDC (see earlier reference)

----------


## steven

Having read some bits on gunpolicy its pretty clear there is some considerable cherry picking and presenting of data and opinions in an dis-honest manner.   For instance claiming that the drop was x3 v before, yes Ok however that effect only lasted 2 or 3 years then it returned to normal decline trend.    Good thing for us of course is when non-gun owners bleat such things we as gun owners can counter their fairy tales.  This thread has morfed a bit but I for one have learned a few things.

----------


## veitnamcam

> ‘Firearm-Related Deaths .


Always be sceptical of any "related death" depending on the data gatherer's particular bent, could mean fell down the stairs and broke a neck and police found a firearm in the house( ridiculous example of course but you get my drift)

Death by firearm would be a lot more specific.

----------


## kotuku

regardless gents -If you walk round with a dangerous weapon,be it martial art skills .knives a dog(or starved leopard on a bloody short leash)or a loaded firearm -one fact is inescapable -YOU are in control of that weapon- YOU also made a decision as to how it may be packaged in a state of readiness, YOU make the decision to use it.
 in accordance with newtons third law _"every action has an opposite equal reaction" if you take your eye off the ball(youre fucking careless) the great shit bombis gonna land squarely on you ,unfortunately often a fatal impact!!
 alas ,we in NZ are not immune as we well know,altho thank christ we dont have tragedies of this type very often.still one dead firearms owner or victim is still one too many IMHO.

----------


## Yukon

> regardless gents -If you walk round with a dangerous weapon,be it martial art skills .knives a dog(or starved leopard on a bloody short leash)or a loaded firearm -one fact is inescapable -YOU are in control of that weapon- YOU also made a decision as to how it may be packaged in a state of readiness, YOU make the decision to use it.
>  in accordance with newtons third law _"every action has an opposite equal reaction" if you take your eye off the ball(youre fucking careless) the great shit bombis gonna land squarely on you ,unfortunately often a fatal impact!!
>  alas ,we in NZ are not immune as we well know,altho thank christ we dont have tragedies of this type very often.still one dead firearms owner or victim is still one too many IMHO.


I disagree with some of this. Anyone can use a knife, dog, or loaded gun, but it doesn't mean they are in control of it. When the chips are down, they will be a danger to guilty and innocent alike because they won't have the skills to use a weapon effectively in a real life, dangerous situation. This is why a combat experience soldier is far more effective than one that has just finished training.

IMO, a true martial artist (not someone that has done a bit of boxing, kickboxing etc), will have a far greater situational awareness, can react to changing situations, keep focussed enough to 'self coach' under pressure, and most importantly, have an exit strategy. With an advanced level of martial arts skill, people shouldn't be harmed by mistake.

I'd rather not have a starved leopard, 'cause they are a bit bitey scratchy, and even a trained martial artist doesn't want to end up as a pile of cat poo.  :Sad:

----------


## Beavis

Most martial arts are rubbish and poorly prepare you for fights out side the dojo.

----------


## Ryan

> Most martial arts are rubbish and poorly prepare you for fights out side the dojo.


Care to elaborate?

----------


## Dundee

boof,bang,the end :Have A Nice Day:  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

----------


## Beavis

It's dancing. When you add stress from a fight you can't remember your dance moves. Cunts use bottles and sticks and shit in real life. I briefly did something that amalgamated karate, some form of Brazilian Jiu jitsu, kick boxing and some other stuff.  It was just too much to remember when it came to actually applying it. Half of it seemed useless.

----------


## Yukon

> Most martial arts are rubbish and poorly prepare you for fights out side the dojo.


You are dead right. Learn to fight first, then hone your skills in the dojo  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Ryan

> It's dancing. When you add stress from a fight you can't remember your dance moves. Cunts use bottles and sticks and shit in real life. I briefly did something that amalgamated karate, some form of Brazilian Jiu jitsu, kick boxing and some other stuff.  It was just too much to remember when it came to actually applying it. Half of it seemed useless.


Sure - it's a plethora of different moves and potential situations to use them, unless you're getting jumped every singly day of your life generally have few opportunities to use them. I can't even remember 90% of what I learned.

That said, when I trained (ages ago now) it improved my fitness (key in a fight), stamina, accuracy and I learned a bit more about body kinetics. Taking hits during sparring improved defensive work and gives one an idea of their strengths and weaknesses, so it wasn't a complete waste of time IMO.

----------


## kotuku

yukon - my use of control is precisely that be it total control or complete lack of.either way a human decision (conscious /reactive)make the person deploy the weapon- weapons dont usually deploy themselves. The intention to carry a weapon denotes a sense of control.
 as psychiatric nurses we unfortunately have to deal with aggression in various degrees quite frequently.a lot is generated by the fear/flight /fight syndrome,engendered by mental illness ,but deliberate provocation is not uncommon with truculent wiseguys and lassies deciding 'no f...ing nurse is telling me what to do."
 we undergo a weeks course in calming and restraint-theory &practical skills. beleive me at the end most of your joints ache like 40 ba...ds and you marvel how such small women can inflict such pain on uncooperative large men!(only did that once as i kissed the carpet in the blink of an eye.)this is followed up by yearly refreshers. it is based on modified jujitsu Im told and is certainly bloody effective in safely controlling a situation ,but its intended for a 3 person team at minimum.cops &prison officers have been dumbfounded when we execute this with zero protective gear.urine ,shit ,vomit ,cooked food cups of tea ,blood ,used tampons ....ive sween em all used as weapons in addition to other common things ,and they certainly dont make you attractive in anyway ,but thats humanity for you.
 ever see that happen on shortland street -na the only combat there is the implied unsheathing of some donkeys pork sword.

----------


## Scottishkiwi

Sad and avoidable... But, I still believe human beings should be allow to carry a concealed firearm with proper training and if they are mentally fit to do so.

----------


## 7mm-Mag

I spent 4 weeks in the USA (2 weeks in New York and the other 2 weeks in Texas) a couple of years ago. No matter where I went, I found the American people to be extremely friendly and hospitable. I wouldn't hesitate to go back again and I would recommend anyone go there.

In my opinion, so long as people have proven themselves to be fit and proper people to own firearms, then why should there be any issue owning any type of firearm?

----------


## Scottishkiwi

> I spent 4 weeks in the USA (2 weeks in New York and the other 2 weeks in Texas) a couple of years ago. No matter where I went, I found the American people to be extremely friendly and hospitable. I wouldn't hesitate to go back again and I would recommend anyone go there.
> 
> In my opinion, so long as people have proven themselves to be fit and proper people to own firearms, then why should there be any issue owning any type of firearm?


My thoughts on the topic exactly, It is kind of ludicrous that cosmetic features are deemed "scary" by the government, Even though we have to keep firearms concealed anyway whilst they are being transported so no one sees it anyway. I have never once seen an e-cat on the range and felt any differently towards it than I do to a .22 bolt gun.. Never mind feeling "Scared" of one. It is just ignorance. The same people I wouldn't trust with a firearm are the same people I wouldn't trust around a car either, But they can still go and buy a ferrari for their first car if their funds allow it.

----------


## Dangerous Dan

USA is an awesome place to visit, wouldn't mind living there. 

Of late, it seems the line has been blurred between being pro gun with everyone respectful of this right/privilege to recently the anti gun movement and implementation of restrictions in certain areas having heated up the issue to the displays we see now of people feeling they have to practice their right to bare arms to remind everyone it is legal/constitutional.

The biggest reduction to crime / homicides was the 1979 legalization of abortions in the US. Largest demographic of offences was from youths. As per the homicide per 100k graph care of ebf on page 4. About 10+ years later potential offenders whom would have come of age to create crime isn't available.

----------


## res

> Ah , bump em off at the foetus stage , I like that  , cant commit a crime if you didn't make it out of the 1st trimester


Sadly it worked, at first it was out down to the police cracking down on little stuff but then a few people looked harder.

----------


## stretch

This just in: Nine-month-old boy shot dead by five-year-old brother | Stuff.co.nz

----------


## Dundee

FUCK!!!

----------


## stretch

> This just in: Nine-month-old boy shot dead by five-year-old brother | Stuff.co.nz


_Indirect_ Darwin Award - the chance of Muppet grandfather's genes perpetuating have reduced by the death of one of his grandchildren.

----------


## Beavis

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Just like the pig hunter over here who left a loaded .270 with his two boys, youngest picks it up and shoots his brother in the stomach.

----------


## Dundee

> Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Just like the pig hunter over here who left a loaded .270 with his two boys, youngest picks it up and shoots his brother in the stomach.


Was that the end?

----------


## stretch

And again... Boy, 2, shoots himself in family car
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/america...-in-family-car

----------

