# Hunting > Game Bird Hunting >  Non toxic subgauge ammo

## mawzer308

Morning all

Have you guys seen any in your neck of the woods, specifically 28 gauge? I have seen 20 gauge and 16 gauge so far. All major manufacturers make non toxic for them now, so surely there is something out there.

----------


## mawzer308

Follow up to this thread, Giles at Taihape sports was able to source a slab of 28 gauge Federal speedshok, 5/8 oz, no.6 steelshot for me. By the sounds of it a small amount was brought in by the wholesalers, so expect to maybe see some in the bigger shops but not alot.

----------


## Ross Nolan

?Where did you see the 16Gauge

----------


## mawzer308

The 16 gauge was at H&F palmerston North. They only had one packet

----------


## GDMP

What was the approximate cost of the federal 28 gauge steel?.

----------


## mawzer308

$280 a slab or $28 a packet.

----------


## Micky Duck

#6 steel will be interesting......personally havent seen .12ga in anything less than #4   other than some sample packs of 7.5 which were still only 1100fps so were hopeless.

----------


## mawzer308

Yeah it'll be a nice dense pattern.  I'll use it on small streams and ponds in the evening when they're nice and close. Have used no.5 steel in 12ga which was great on decoying birds sub 30yds.

----------


## GDMP

Tried to order some,the importer had 9 slabs left but its all pre-sold.So I back-ordered a small quantity to try......although who knows when it may turn up.

----------


## southernman

I've got Mec 28ga, 20, & 12 press, plus the gear to adapt to 16ga, in Bell block, keep your hull's, and 5g of wads, and sum 20lbs bismuth and ITX shot, 
 Looking like I may sell, and be back in NZ, by mid 2022, so keep your old 28, 16 ga hulls, As long as bismuth, remains sum what resalable in price, I can build up non tox shot shells, for anyone dropping in.
 I have not had much luck, with steel shot, in the smaller gauges, smaller pellets, have less mass, and bleed off speed quickly, hand loading too large steel can cause bridging, in smaller bores, Speed is everything with steel shot, 
 The Federal 16ga steel shot, is quite slow, 1200fps, better is 1500 or more.
 Hopefully importers will bring in sum more sub gauge options.

----------


## Kiwi-Hunter

bismuth, I also was not wanting to run steel in the sub gauge, but have done some research! Here's my conclusion.
If you hammer lead it flatten's, hannner bismuth and it dusts up or blows into particles. The advise I received was, it cannot be driven at speed and therefore is a short range mix. In the same way you would be better shooting 3" with 7s 71/2 steel close in with more affect and 3s and 4s steel for 35yards and greater.
This is the advice form a Olympic and International shooter.
KH

----------


## Micky Duck

hopefully we will see some heavishot arrive on shore...I would buy it in a heartbeat if price was even semi reasonable......Ive been known to pull 12ga rounds apart to get shot for the 410........heavishot loads would be ideal to do this.

----------


## Kiwi-Hunter

> hopefully we will see some heavishot arrive on shore...I would buy it in a heartbeat if price was even semi reasonable......Ive been known to pull 12ga rounds apart to get shot for the 410........heavishot loads would be ideal to do this.


 :Grin: 
KH

----------


## southernman

I've loaded quite a bit of non toxic shot, I liked "nice shot" the best, but its no longer made,, same weight as lead, 
 I bought two 7lb bags of heavy shot, ten years ago, for $175 bag, now at $350 plus, so too expensive, 
 Been getting bismuth from BPI, its ok, but defiantly inferia to the above, sum new bismuth out now, that's coated in tin, I am told its better, still expensive, $250 for 7lbs, 
 ITX =-10 and ITX-13, I've used quite a bit, the -13,(denser and heaver) is way more expensive than the 10, bought 5 bag of ITX-10 many years ago, for $140, burned threw most of it, Now, $300 bucks a bag, But at least you can push it fast, 1450fps with 7/8oz in my 16ga. 
 I am complete out of non Toxic, now, Think  will try and sneek a couple bags ITX, threw the business as supplies, 
 Got a fair bit of non tox in NZ, as most of my duck shooting and hunting supplies, went back in the 2015 oil field slow down, the few decoys and shotgun reloading supplies I had here, were lost in the 2016 Fort Mac fire, mates garage burnt.
 There is no getting around, the cost having gone up for sub gauges, 
 Getting geared up, to chase more birds again, I've bought a ten foot, Jon boat, mate and I are getting a dozen decoys each, got lots 16ga wads, 
 Shooting mate up here blew up, his custom fair 16ga, (double charge), he gave me his hydraulic Mec 9000 loader and shopping bags of wad, hulls.

 Huge numbers of ducks up here, the Parries have been very wet, last three years, previous was in a ten year drought, 
 Besides, ducks and geese are far more fun, than deer, at least you get a bit off shooting in, before the work starts.

----------


## Got-ya

I reload for 12 and 20 and am keen to try some Bismith. Will have to track some down.

----------


## Perazzimx8

Gunworks have Bismuth for sale I have some on the way to try for a couple of old Belgium Browning A5 20ga I have.

----------


## Kiwi-Hunter

> Gunworks have Bismuth for sale I have some on the way to try for a couple of old Belgium Browning A5 20ga I have.


Don't mean to jack the main thought of the post. 
I've been a fan of the classic browning in 20g! wanted to get hold of one at one point. 
But ended up with the benelli M1 which is okay now that I have it! because of the 3" factor.
Post a picture of it or email me with a picture please. Year's ago there was one in 16g on tm, one of the should of. 
KH

----------


## Perazzimx8

> Don't mean to jack the main thought of the post. 
> I've been a fan of the classic browning in 20g! wanted to get hold of one at one point. 
> But ended up with the benelli M1 which is okay now that I have it! because of the 3" factor.
> Post a picture of it or email me with a picture please. Year's ago there was one in 16g on tm, one of the should of. 
> KH


I have one that’s a light 20 so 2 3/4 and a Magnum 20 in 3”

----------


## Got-ya

> Gunworks have Bismuth for sale I have some on the way to try for a couple of old Belgium Browning A5 20ga I have.


I have seen a couple over the years but they were 2 1/2 inch chambers so have let them go.

----------


## gsp follower

> I have seen a couple over the years but they were 2 1/2 inch chambers so have let them go.


has falcon come up with that bismuth load yet??




> We do have some bismuth coming our way quite soon. For reloading it can be ordered via Gunworks in Christchurch or any other reseller of reloading gear you could approach depending where you are. Looks like it’s being sold for $55.00 a kilo at retail which is a pretty fair price considering what it costs. It’s just one size #4 at this stage we will have available and it will be tin plated bismuth shot. We are considering a 12 gauge bismuth waterfowl cartridge of around 34-36 grams a bit like our SP 36 lead load equivalent but things are still being worked on so nothing finalised right at the moment. It has a different density to lead of course so we have to start with the basics and learn a bit about it. It will be more expensive but that’s the nature of the cost of bismuth which I think everyone already knows. It will be a Falcon brand cartridge loaded by us in Timaru. No idea at the moment when the first production will be run but things might happen quite quickly before opening day

----------


## Perazzimx8

> has falcon come up with that bismuth load yet??


Will be good when they do. Hopefully it’s a bit less than the Eley I got from H&F at $99. Would be nice to shoot my Grandfather’s old A5 a bit more. At $55 a kg for the shot I don’t think loading anything more than 7/8oz 20ga would be viable from what I can work out.

----------


## Got-ya

> Will be good when they do. Hopefully it’s a bit less than the Eley I got from H&F at $99. Would be nice to shoot my Grandfather’s old A5 a bit more. At $55 a kg for the shot I don’t think loading anything more than 7/8oz 20ga would be viable from what I can work out.



Yeah for the 32g 20g load I use thats $1.77 a shot before I even add the other stuff. However thinking about it with the density difference that 32g load by pellet count will be 27.4g which is still $1.52 a shot which is better, but still too much.

----------


## gsp follower

> Will be good when they do. Hopefully it’s a bit less than the Eley I got from H&F at $99. Would be nice to shoot my Grandfather’s old A5 a bit more. At $55 a kg for the shot I don’t think loading anything more than 7/8oz 20ga would be viable from what I can work out.


i hear plated bismuth is the go now
 as it overcomes bismuths tendency to fragment

----------


## southernman

Well I've just got current prices for Non toxic, 
 ITX #4 7lbs is CAD $292.41
 Bismuth #6 7lbs shot is 246.98, 
  Nickel plated lead shot #6 $94.98
  lead shot #9 25lbs is $75

 Ouch, last time I bought the CAD, was higher than the US dollar, now 30c less, brutal.

 I've got #4 Itx and #6 bismuth as well as the nickel ordered, last of the supplies in Canada, supplier not sure if/when any more coming given the USA gun buying spree, 
  He said last order was 40% of requested items. 
 debating on a bag of #2 ITX for geese, almost work out cheaper to by a new 12ga, and shoot steel instead.

----------


## Perazzimx8

> Yeah for the 32g 20g load I use thats $1.77 a shot before I even add the other stuff. However thinking about it with the density difference that 32g load by pellet count will be 27.4g which is still $1.52 a shot which is better, but still too much.


Out of interest what sort of Hull, Wad, powder are you using. My 20ga lead loads have all been AA hulls and claybuster wads but I’m not sure as most of the recipes I find for Bismuth are using a Remington wad.

----------


## Perazzimx8

> i hear plated bismuth is the go now
>  as it overcomes bismuths tendency to fragment


It would be nice to get some of the Boss Shotshells that are available in the states.

----------


## Got-ya

> Out of interest what sort of Hull, Wad, powder are you using. My 20ga lead loads have all been AA hulls and claybuster wads but I’m not sure as most of the recipes I find for Bismuth are using a Remington wad.


Hulls are just straight wall 2 3/4 trap load pickups. Powder is Winchester 540 but when that is gone will be using Hodgdon HS6 which is equivalent. Wads are just what Brian Thompson (who is now down your way) supplied me. Its not the fastest load in the world but well led ducks fall down. Make sure you pattern your load as shot sizes above 5 will often not pattern well though a 20g.
Gun is a Browning Gold Fusion.

----------


## Kiwi-Hunter

Well I still have a few wads for reloading if a good alternative can be had. 
Or just 12g steel and I don't like the thought of the shoulders being abused. 
Rock and a hard place for me, or move away from the ducks. 
KH

----------


## Micky Duck

.12ga steel isnt all bad and loads of 30-32grms do kill ducks ok.....falcon and winchester both put out good loads in that weight.the winchester is better for me.....
taken more than a few big canadas with steel now too,#2s work well for just about anything,smaller shot sizes might have denser pattern...but #3s are a good option for us...jump or lake shooting...tried lots of different steel #4s and cant say Im a fan.

----------


## Got-ya

> ].12ga steel isnt all bad and loads of 30-32grms do kill ducks ok.....[/B]falcon and winchester both put out good loads in that weight.the winchester is better for me.....
> taken more than a few big canadas with steel now too,#2s work well for just about anything,smaller shot sizes might have denser pattern...but #3s are a good option for us...jump or lake shooting...tried lots of different steel #4s and cant say Im a fan.


No just mostly bad, and "OK" is hardly a ringing endorsement. Density always wins.

----------


## gsp follower

> It would be nice to get some of the Boss Shotshells that are available in the states.


hallelujah your preaching to the already converted if thier loads are half as good as stated bring them on
if they,d been available id a kept my 20 gauge.
 bye the bye i patterned gamebores 12 gauge 30 gram steel 2.s at about 30 feet on the f&g mallard drake target.
oops 
the wad went thru the middle and the steel 2.s tore holes everywhere else lol looked like a buckshot strike.
hope falcon has the sence to go for the new plated bismuth for thier loads and not repeat the mistakes others have found with it.
im usein12 bore eley vip 3.s on parries and am so far not impressed out of twin imp/cyl chokes patterns great kills not so.

----------


## Perazzimx8

> hallelujah your preaching to the already converted if thier loads are half as good as stated bring them on
> if they,d been available id a kept my 20 gauge.
>  bye the bye i patterned gamebores 12 gauge 30 gram steel 2.s at about 30 feet on the f&g mallard drake target.
> oops 
> the wad went thru the middle and the steel 2.s tore holes everywhere else lol looked like a buckshot strike.
> hope falcon has the sence to go for the new plated bismuth for thier loads and not repeat the mistakes others have found with it.
> im usein12 bore eley vip 3.s on parries and am so far not impressed out of twin imp/cyl chokes patterns great kills not so.


I received my bismuth from Gunworks the other day which from what I can tell is the stuff from Falcon. It’s not a copper colour or anything but may be tin or a zink type plating I’m not sure. I’ll post a picture when I get home.

----------


## Perazzimx8

This is the Bismuth shot I got, I’m no expert but not sure on the plating.

----------


## Got-ya

At that price you should be making jewelry out of it not shotgun loads. Be interesting to see how it patterns.

----------


## gsp follower

> This is the Bismuth shot I got, Im no expert but not sure on the plating.Attachment 160903


the only bismuth ive seen was much darker
 so fingers crossed thats the plated  stuff



> At that price you should be making jewelry out of it not shotgun loads. Be interesting to see how it patterns.


if we were economists instead of bird hunters waterfowling/upland bird hunting would have died long ago :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

----------


## Got-ya

> the only bismuth ive seen was much darker
>  so fingers crossed thats the plated  stuff
> 
> if we were economists instead of bird hunters waterfowling/upland bird hunting would have died long ago


True, if I was stupid enough to price up what my roast duck actually cost me............

----------


## gsp follower

> True, if I was stupid enough to price up what my roast duck actually cost me............


was a change of undies called for :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

----------


## Got-ya

> was a change of undies called for



Lets just say a Tegal chicken looked bloody cheep. :Omg:

----------


## gsp follower

> Lets just say a Tegal chicken looked bloody cheep.


agreed but thats the problem.
 compared to a fat juicy sizzling roast ,mallard 
tegal,s not even in the hunt roast spuds and kumara/pumpkin not with standing

----------


## Got-ya

Yip which is why I still do it. Shot my first duck at 10 years old and now nearly 40 years later I have never missed an Opening. Numbers up here are nothing what they used to be though. the lower Waikato used to be called the duck factory  of NZ, that has not been the case since the late ninety's.
Which reminds me, time to go spray the pond.

----------


## mawzer308

Picked up the slab today hopefully get out to pattern it through all the chokes soon. Giles has another slab in stock currently, $35 a packet or $270 a slab.

----------


## southernman

shippment of reloading supplies arrived.

----------


## gsp follower

> shippment of reloading supplies arrived.Attachment 162361Attachment 162362


is the itx 10 shot sizes comparable to lead or steel
 IE do you have to go up or is it so hard/dense you can go down in sizes even

----------


## southernman

> is the itx 10 shot sizes comparable to lead or steel
>  IE do you have to go up or is it so hard/dense you can go down in sizes even


Its roughly the same size as comparable lead, slightly less dense, but can be pushed faster, 
 I mostly shoot a #4 7/8 oz load, at 1450fps in my 16ga for ducks, swats them out of the sky to 50m or so.

----------


## WireWorking

Great thread. I have purchased a couple of kilos of bismuth for a 7/8 oz load for the 20ga. I am still searching around for 28ga steel so my 11 year old daughter shoot some ducks aswell, it is a pity that Fish and Game didn't include the 28ga in the lead exemptions like the 410.

----------


## csmiffy

Silly question.
Is 410 ammo as expensive in comparison to 12g overseas?
Just talking standard lead, not the tungsten Turkey stuff

----------


## gsp follower

in typical high handed f&g fashion thier mags report on 20 gauge steel is full of shit.
the high handed test of ammo seemingly unavailable to us common hunters, just proves how out of touch they still are.
expensive duplex loads and drylock steel unavailable in your usual haunts
 or 39 t0 49 a box black cloud.and speed shock steel ive never seen  in 20 gauge.
 if your going to do tests tell us where we can source the ammo the retail price.
  not that we subcidised you into ''a case of drylock steel''available from where by the way  for the tests

----------


## mikee

Im still looking for a couple boxes in 20ga
I know federal make a good tss load but works out quite expensive at around $8 per shot and i have yet to find any anywhere but the report in f&g mag says its here.

----------


## tetawa

Maybe "RIO" will be the only choice of 20g in steel

----------


## mikee

Well I had a wee trip round the stores here in Nelson after reading in the F&G mag how widespread 20 non-toxic stuff is and how well it performs.

H&F in Nelson either had a single box or single variety (could not be sure no one seemed to really want to help me)
H&F in Richmond had nothing and when I asked if they were likely too get anything said maybe, maybe not not really sure
Kelly country had several varieties and not supprisingly were actually very helpful. 
Never went to GS as ran out of time

So its great that its so easy to get ammo so I can shoot the duckies (yes i have a 12g but its not the gun I hunt with or want to hunt with)
I would have brought a box of Federal TSS to try even at $8 a cartridge but I can find any

----------


## Micky Duck

it looks like falcon are finnally coming to party with some loads too.....tried to get them to push some lighter payload 12ga a few years back but not interested,that said the 30 grm loading if you can find it is good.
interesting in that article they stated WHO supplied rounds...maybe chase them up that way????
50 quid to knob of goat shit you will hear the covid excuse rolled out....

----------


## tetawa

Now Farmlands is out of ammo sales think a few other retailers are stocking Falcon. Is RIO only a GC product.

----------


## mikee

> it looks like falcon are finnally coming to party with some loads too.....tried to get them to push some lighter payload 12ga a few years back but not interested,that said the 30 grm loading if you can find it is good.
> interesting in that article they stated WHO supplied rounds...maybe chase them up that way????
> 50 quid to knob of goat shit you will hear the covid excuse rolled out....


I know all that but I should not have too, that article makes it sound like it is easily obtainable with a minimum of effort when that is clearly not the case. Not to mention I believe a lot was supplied by H&F / Sportways and Killwell. SO you would think being the first year that you have to use it (non toxic) in all guages except 410 you would / should be almost able to get it an any chemist so to speak.
I may have to yet buy a 410 u/o

----------


## Micky Duck

yes I do agree its been shoddy deal the major players not getting in large amounts quickly.....I have contact who deals in the b&p stuff in .12ga if you want I can flick you his dets and you could get in touch re getting in some 20ga.........

----------


## tetawa

Looking at Killwell's  non toxic sub gauge, arriving late April.

----------


## Micky Duck

late April is plurry close to early May...if delayed and youve waited for it ,your in the shit.....if youve waited for it and its $5 a shot.....not a lot of choice left....
remember what is it now???3-4 ??? seasons ago H&F did big speil on how good the eley stuff was then didnt get it in in time for DDay.....

----------


## mikee

> yes I do agree its been shoddy deal the major players not getting in large amounts quickly.....I have contact who deals in the b&p stuff in .12ga if you want I can flick you his dets and you could get in touch re getting in some 20ga.........


Got a couple boxes of the Mary Arms stuff to pattern, if it works then the local small guy gun shop have quite a bit. I can hunt with lead as I mainly shoot upland game but in the event of bumping into a duck or 3 its much easier to just use non toxic all round than just watch Mr Mallard fly by. 
That said its bloody frustrating. Ideally i would like some 7s in steel for quail preferably with disolving or fibre wads.

----------


## Micky Duck

the writeup on the eley stuff looked promising in that respect......awesome to hear you can get the falcon stuff.Mary Arms..... it should be ok as the 12 ga steel stuff they do has large fan base....

----------


## mikee

For what its worth the Mary Arms 20ga steel patterned real good in my 20ga (Beretta 687 ) and smashed clays well to 45 yards so i think it may be ok for waterfowl and possibly a bit much for pheasants

----------


## gsp follower

> interesting in that article they stated WHO supplied rounds...maybe chase them up that way????


yea i blew up before i saw before i saw the suppliers.
even so i bet you wont get much joy from wholesalers unless you buy quantity and who wants to buy quantity and find its a expensive crapshoot. sportsways does not list the 20 gauge speed shock steel as a option only federal black cloud and close range black cloud and i,ll bet its not south of 39 buks a box.
a amount  which they probably wouldnt supply you with anyway.
killwell does say late april but i hope its not stuck behind the ''ever given a kick in the arse '' in the suez.
i said at the time it would be a cluster just like the first phase out.
 shit ammo at expensive prices in loads to light  for most hunting or to heavy/ mauling for ducks and bloody pricey for our hunting.
i found the most expensive black cloud 2,s in 20 gauge highly suspect on geese and parries at normal ranges

----------


## GDMP

Does'nt H&F have the Eley 20 ga steel catridges available?.I thought they did.....

----------


## mikee

> Does'nt H&F have the Eley 20 ga steel catridges available?.I thought they did.....


Yes they did I think I counted 2 boxes  :Grin:  in one store and none in the other when I asked.

----------


## gsp follower

> Yes they did I think I counted 2 boxes  in one store and none in the other when I asked.


ive had some in steel 5.s so lead 7,s? for my 20.
missed 3 times in a row at quail thru a imp/cyl but thats just as likly me.
have a funny feeling had i connected it would have been quail mince.
might be a good night pond load if it patterns true to choke in your guns

----------


## Micky Duck

forget that whole 2 sizes bigger thing......for me #3s is where its at...... you MAY be better to try a modified choke....and see how it patterns.

----------


## mikee

judging by the way the Mary Arms load (mixed 4&5 Shot sizes) smashes clays it might pay to let the birs get out a little further or they might not be edible. 
But at least now i can get some

----------


## Micky Duck

well your imp cyl is possible better option then....some of the early .12ga loads were tighter than tight thing pattern wise too. more splits/slits in wad petals helps open pattern faster so it seems.
guess it will be pattern board time till you suss out whats best for you.

----------


## Micky Duck

gunworks have 1kg bismith #4 shot at $55    so yip expensive BUT its available at last....

----------


## gsp follower

> gunworks have 1kg bismith #4 shot at $55    so yip expensive BUT its available at last....


wonder how target products ae going with thier 12 gauge bismuth load

----------


## McNotty

Not my testing but something that popped up on Facebook today. Benelli Cordoba at 30 metres

----------


## GDMP

I noticed GC have the rio 20 ga steel loads in size 3 and 4 shot.Around $22 a box I think.

----------


## gsp follower

the latest from target products on thier bismuth load
.


> Hi Kevin.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately we have postponed the loading of our planned bismuth shot load due to delays and time constraints. We are hoping to load some in the next 2-3 months but nothing is certain at the moment. It will be a 34 gram 2¾ load with bismuth shot size 4 3.05mm with a fibre wad.
> 
> 
> 
> If you reload the bismuth shot is available from Gunworks in Christchurch.
> ...


 and a full list of thier outlets 



> Dargaville            	MCCOY & THOMAS HUNTING & FISHING	92 Victoria Street	09-4398520
>  	NOLAS SPORTS	126-130 Victoria Street	09-4398624
> Kaitaia	MCCOY & THOMAS HUNTING & FISHING	147 Commerce Street	09-4080906
>  	RIDERS SPORTS DEPOT	73 Commerce Street	09-4080240
> Kerikeri	MCCOY & THOMAS HUNTING & FISHING	25 Kerikeri Road	09-4017501
>  	NORTHLAND FARM AND FORESTRY SUPPLIES	2/8 Skippers Lane, Waipapa	09-4078969
>  	STIRLING SPORTS KERIKERI	10/19 Klinac Lane	09-4078447
> Whangarei	MCCOY & THOMAS HUNTING & FISHING	1-3 Rust Avenue	09-4389086
>  	STIRLING SPORTS WHANGAREI	5 Rathbone Street	09-4382700
> ...

----------


## mawzer308

Finally got out to test the federal no.6 steel shot in the 28 gauge. Initially I was pessimistic about its potential however I was very impressed with the performance, folding the ducks nice and cleanly, most shots around the 25yd mark, but also a 40ish yard passing bird that folded straight away too.

----------


## Micky Duck

pity we dont see #6 steel in the 12ga....a heavy payload would be ideal for the odd woundie.....we used to use a box of clay target 8s for the job....

----------


## mikee

H&F I think have steel 7's (clay target loads)

----------


## Micky Duck

tried them 5-6? years back...trouble is/was they are only going 1100fps so dont penertrate worth a damn.

----------

