# Hunting > Varminting and Small Game Hunting >  Organic farm

## 199p

Hay guys

Have been contacted to rid a farm of pests. Only problem is its a organic farm so lead is out but is steel ok to use?

Anything else I need to do or not use?
They allready using traps but the fruit trees are getting hammered.
Any information would be great.

Cheers
Shane

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## Maca49

1080 seems to be harmless, ring Nick! :Grin:

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## Maca49

What about a 17 hmr nothing left really except slithers of brass?

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## 199p

> What about a 17 hmr nothing left really except slithers of brass?


Yeah not silly thinking. They are getting back to me in a few days with what they can find out

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## kiwijames

Barnes Varmint grenade!

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## Friwi

Steel shot

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## P38

Are you allowed to use Dogs?

A couple of good Whippets and Foxies will clean up the Rabbits, Hares, Possums, Rats etc.

Cheers
Pete

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## Rushy

Lead is organic.  It is on the same list as oxygen and sits at number 82 on the periodic table.  They wouldn't farm without oxygen so put it to them that lead is natural and very organic.

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## Marty Henry

> Lead is organic.  It is on the same list as oxygen and sits at number 82 on the periodic table.  They wouldn't farm without oxygen so put it to them that lead is natural and very organic.


Sorry but while Lead is natural its not organic nor is steel or copper. Chemical definition of an organic compound is one that contains carbon, hydrogen plus other compounds such as oxygen, nitrogen etc. Therefore Rocks arent organic so shouldnt be allowed on organic farms, but I digress as the definition of organic for most people is pretty airy fairy and means "not chemicals". Pointy sticks made from sustainably harvested forests are probably the most "organic" method.

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## 7mmwsm

Good luck. Sounds like more headaches than enjoyment to be had for you.

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## kiwijames

Organic vs non-organic milk solids payout at present. $9.20/kg vs $3.90/kg. 
It might sound flaky but it appears to pay the bills a lot better.

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## sako75

Get all the pests together, form a group hug and ask them to please go elsewhere as they are offending the land owners, theres a good lad. Now that is an organic solution and if it doesn't work then go conventional.

As any barista  (coffee maker to mainlanders) will tell you any arrogant customer orders something special they would not know if you used whole instead of trim or soy or that the Latte that ordered was a flat white. Little different with organic farming where there are more stringent quality controls

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## 199p

> Organic vs non-organic milk solids payout at present. $9.20/kg vs $3.90/kg. 
> It might sound flaky but it appears to pay the bills a lot better.



This and Grass fed beef is a niche market that NZ could be world leaders in if we played our cards right. 

p.s the wheels are starting to turn  :Have A Nice Day:

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## sako75

Fonterra says it is "desperate" to gets its hands on organic milk supplies because it is worth five times more than conventional.

Recently, in an offer that was not made public, Fonterra increased the premium it pays to organic farmers by 25c per kilogram of milk solids, to a total of $1.75. Added to the forecast price of $3.85 announced last week and organic suppliers will receive $5.60 per kg/ms for this season.

The international retail price of organic milk powder is $14,600 per tonne compared to about $2800 for non-organic. Skim organic powder fetches $12,500.

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## Kscott

Organic farmers doubt Fonterra's commitment | NZNews | Newshub

interesting story.

Wonder if you can use an air rifle instead ? Less lead, still effective.

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## 223nut

Air rifles do gold plated pellets dont they? Surely that would add to the value of it!

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## BRADS

> This and Grass fed beef is a niche market that NZ could be world leaders in if we played our cards right. 
> 
> p.s the wheels are starting to turn


Organic farmers are like worst stinking tramper you ever shared a hut with.
The costs of being organic have to be taken into account.

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## Rushy

I have to say that the whole "organic" thing seems like total fucking nonsense to me.  I would argue that any animal and any vegetable is organic particularly given Marty Henry's erudite description on the previous page.  A grumpy old bugger like me reckons a chook is a fucking chook regardless of what it has eaten.  The only difference between a chook that has spent it's life running around a paddock scratching in the dirt and a chook that has been caged, pumped full of growth hormones and fooled into eating a shitload more mash is that the latter is a damn site more tender and a whole lot more of a plate filler.

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## 199p

> Organic farmers are like worst stinking tramper you ever shared a hut with.
> The costs of being organic have to be taken into account.


I wont be farming them.

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## sambnz

Slightly off topic but if anyone's interested im the organic vs non organic food etc from a health/diet perspective, read The Omnivores Dilemma from Michael Pollan.  Great read. 


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## kiwijames

> I have to say that the whole "organic" thing seems like total fucking nonsense to me.  I would argue that any animal and any vegetable is organic particularly given Marty Henry's erudite description on the previous page.  A grumpy old bugger like me reckons a chook is a fucking chook regardless of what it has eaten.  The only difference between a chook that has spent it's life running around a paddock scratching in the dirt and a chook that has been caged, pumped full of growth hormones and fooled into eating a shitload more mash is that the latter is a damn site more tender and a whole lot more of a plate filler.


Consider it more from a business perspective than an ethical one. If the investment pays back better than current non-organic model then it's got to be worth the consideration. There is a push in Hawkes Bay to be more organic with our food crops and I'm interested. My interest is more from a value added perspective than a lifestyle one though.

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## Rushy

> Consider it more from a business perspective than an ethical one. If the investment pays back better than current non-organic model then it's got to be worth the consideration. There is a push in Hawkes Bay to be more organic with our food crops and I'm interested. My interest is more from a value added perspective than a lifestyle one though.


KJ I totally get the whole business perspective and lift hats off to anyone who can sell a two dollar turnip for ten dollars.  Back in the nineties I made a lot of money taking a service that every competitor sold for seven bucks a week while I sold the self same thing to customers at twenty eight bucks per week simply by promoting it as the best service available.  That said, I still think that the whole "organic" thing is a crock of crap and I believe that most of the people that buy organic whatever's do so because it is a trendy thing to do and they couldn't tell the difference between two steaks or two glasses of milk in a blind test.  What really shits me is the converts are worse than a reformed smoker or a born again religious fanatic when they start preaching the benefits and the truth be known they know jack shit about it.  Fuck mate you got me ranting.  Steady Rushy it really isn't that important.  Ha ha ha ha

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## kiwijames

> KJ I totally get the whole business perspective and lift hats off to anyone who can sell a two dollar turnip for ten dollars.  Back in the nineties I made a lot of money taking a service that every competitor sold for seven bucks a week while I sold the self same thing to customers at twenty eight bucks per week simply by promoting it as the best service available.  That said, I still think that the whole "organic" thing is a crock of crap and I believe that most of the people that buy organic whatever's do so because it is a trendy thing to do and they couldn't tell the difference between two steaks or two glasses of milk in a blind test.  What really shits me is the converts are worse than a reformed smoker or a born again religious fanatic when they start preaching the benefits and the truth be known they know jack shit about it.  Fuck mate you got me ranting.  Steady Rushy it really isn't that important.  Ha ha ha ha


Take a few deep breaths boss and maybe a Waikato or two. You'll be right.

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## Rushy

> Take a few deep breaths boss and maybe a Waikato or two. You'll be right.


Of course.  A beer is exactly what I need.

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## Boaraxa

> Organic farmers are like worst stinking tramper you ever shared a hut with.
> The costs of being organic have to be taken into account.


We are organic here 6 acres ... never intended to be that way its just im to tight to buy firt or drench or anything else  :Have A Nice Day:

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## BRADS

I like to think our meat is great eating, we don't drench ewes, Bulls only get one drench, never had a vet on the farm, but we ain't organic, we need fert and I hate weeds.
The current milk price is $5.65 for organic milk and even the big guys aren't profitable at that just to put it in perspective for you guys. @Dundee would be loving $5.65


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## SiB

This is actually a niche opportunity our ammunition manufacturers should get wise to; they certainly did re steel shot for example.  Whilst rim fire manufacturers would argue the economics I bet there's a centre fire possibility.....

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## Boaraxa

> This is actually a niche opportunity our ammunition manufacturers should get wise to; they certainly did re steel shot for example.  Whilst rim fire manufacturers would argue the economics I bet there's a centre fire possibility.....


You not heard of a potato gun  :Psmiley:

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## SiB

My laser cannon is on the workbench as we speak but the neighbours seem to object to the brown out the power supply causes. Yes brown out. Google it you grubby gigglers

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## southernman

I shot a farm in Canada for pheasants and grouse, the grumpy old bugger, said, yep but no lead, copper, steel or plastic, 
 Came back a couple weeks latter, and he insisted on pulling apart two shotgun shells, I used cork and felt, and bismuth, and sum old 16ga paper hulls, 
 he reluctantly let me have a go, as it was his way of saying no, and I had out smarted him, got a couple birds and gave a hand fixing an old tractor, and got supper and an invite back, 
 Think side ways a bit, I wonder if something like rock salt, might be enough to stone a bird or rabbit at close range, seen frozen paint ball's kill a cat, what about a wax sabot in a shotgun,

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## Chilli_Dog

You can get lead free air gun pellets, not sure exactly what they are though

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## Beaker

Having a rum, so the left/right/back/front, what ever side/area of brain that's responsible for random thoughts are well primed.

Cement projectile in a wax sabot. 
Oz hardwood (heavy and dense) - actually might give this a go myself.....  :Have A Nice Day: 
Small, maybe sieved local stones in a wax matrix/sabot.
cotton cloth, wound into cartridge then wax over top/through



No real ideas for a centerfire/rimfire though....

Also full support for the financial side of organics. Not 100% sold on the benefits to the consumer, but can appreciate the perceived benefits (and some do definitely taste much better).  100% against the ram down throat, hairy, unwashed, no understanding of world/local/tribe economics type folk that seem to push organics

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## Boaraxa

Crushed up iron stone or screened ironstone mite get close

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## gadgetman

Pepper corns in a shotgun shell. Game will come pre seasoned.

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## kiwijames

> Pepper corns in a shotgun shell. Game will come pre seasoned.


No no no no. I rooted a SKB U/O doing this. Not enough weight had a wad stuck halfway and the next bulged the barrel.

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## gadgetman

> No no no no. I rooted a SKB U/O doing this. Not enough weight had a wad stuck halfway and the next bulged the barrel.


Not sure how the lack of weight would cause the wad to be stuck. The pepper corns should go out in front of the wad, then the powder pushes the lot out. Maybe add salt and other spices to taste?  :Wink:  :Thumbsup:

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## kiwijames

> Not sure how the lack of weight would cause the wad to be stuck. The pepper corns should go out in front of the wad, then the powder pushes the lot out. Maybe add salt and other spices to taste?


Was a long while ago and thinking about it now I'm unsure of the logic but I do know for sure the barrel is toast with a nice big bulge.

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## gadgetman

> Was a long while ago and thinking about it now I'm unsure of the logic but I do know for sure the barrel is toast with a nice big bulge.


Maybe forgot the powder bit? Primer didn't have enough juice to push it through.

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## gadgetman

Note: I've never done this and hadn't heard of anyone doing it before @kiwijames.

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## Beaker

Rock salt , pepper corns, with a few chilli flakes all mixed with melted butter to form a solid.... Like the idea!  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Marty Henry

> No no no no. I rooted a SKB U/O doing this. Not enough weight had a wad stuck halfway and the next bulged the barrel.


Made some confetti loads for a stag do event once, tried them first luckily. Mild pop confetti out the end wad hanging out end of barrel, barrel full of unburnt powder
Not enough resistance to get the pressure up to make the smokeless powder burn.  Made up some bp blanks instead much more fun.

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## southernman

Yea you need the weight, if you remove an OZ of lead you need to get a substitute, of the same weight or at least close, 
 wax and iron stone said above, mostly its  waste of time, but its fun to play with shotguns and load up blanks,
 what else is natural and dense, and small enough to blast out a 12 bore. sum types of seeds I bet.
 lime is heavy, wonder if you can make lime and iron sand pellets, like buck shot, perhaps bake them hard, like concrete,

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## Rushy

You guys are nuts. Just hit the little fuckers with a big "organic" stick.

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## gadgetman

> You guys are nuts. Just hit the little fuckers with a big "organic" stick.


Of course we're nuts @Rushy. Life is far to short to be boring and normal, ... so they tell me anyway.

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## Nunga

> You can get lead free air gun pellets, not sure exactly what they are though


they are called PBA pellets (Performance Ballistic Alloy) they are very light and shoot very fast. but they are made by Gamo so they are crap.  :Have A Nice Day:  they are too light to do any real damage and they have been known to damage the internals of your gun (springer) because it is almost like dry firing the gun when shooting them.

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## Rich007

> Consider it more from a business perspective than an ethical one. If the investment pays back better than current non-organic model then it's got to be worth the consideration. There is a push in Hawkes Bay to be more organic with our food crops and I'm interested. My interest is more from a value added perspective than a lifestyle one though.


I think most dairy farmers in NZ pondered converting to organics after the recent announcement. However, it take 3 years of 'farming organically' before you are 'certified organic' and recieve the $9/kgms. Fonterra will pay you a little bit extra during the process. Unfortunately, to become organic you typically have to reduce your milk production by about 1/3, some costs will reduce but not enough to make up for the drop in production. (Most farmers will not have the cash reserves to fund this) Then........you finally achieve 'certified organic status', only to find that conventional milk prices have recovered and organic milk supply has increased and we are back to a $1.50/KgMS premium (not worth it)

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## Wanna_eat_meat

Rock salt in shotty shells, small amount of moisture and sit on window sill in the warm dry for a couple of weeks, i know of a farmer who accidentally killed his neighbours dog shooting it with one of these.

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## timattalon

Cross bow. Its still metal but because it is retrievable should solve your problem.

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## tommygun

Doesn't sound like metal-free is that plausible, but I looked into this someone who wanted to go lead-free for pest control. Hornady NTX (lead-free/non-toxic) ammo is available in .22WMR and .17HMR, CCI does a lead-free .22LR but Sportways don't bring it in to NZ. He ended up settling on alloy air rifle pellets for smaller critters and Barnes TSX .223 handloads for bigger ones. I haven't used Barnes before but they look like they have some impressive expansion.

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## Beetroot

Use steel shot in shotgun or 17hmr with 15.5gr NTXs (copper and tin, no lead).
Or if you want centerfire Hornady and of course Barnes have many lead free bullets.

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## Freezer

I work helping NZ companies export.  These days mainly in organic products.  Value added organics is where NZ needs to position itself. 
Plain and simple the worldwide market for organics over the next 10years will outstrip supply. 

Fonterra isn't making it easy though,  they killed their organic program 5 years ago to only now get back into it.  They need to show a long term stable commitment to organic.

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## chindit

Did kosher milk a few years ago, had a rabbi on farm making sure we didn't milk any pigs or camels. Organic, kosher, halal milk is the way to go, must be worth shitloads. Did you know all alcohol is kosher

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## Wirehunt

> I think most dairy farmers in NZ pondered converting to organics after the recent announcement. However, it take 3 years of 'farming organically' before you are 'certified organic' and recieve the $9/kgms. Fonterra will pay you a little bit extra during the process. Unfortunately, to become organic you typically have to reduce your milk production by about 1/3, some costs will reduce but not enough to make up for the drop in production. (Most farmers will not have the cash reserves to fund this) Then........you finally achieve 'certified organic status', only to find that conventional milk prices have recovered and organic milk supply has increased and we are back to a $1.50/KgMS premium (not worth it)


So some of these cockies would have a chance to stop with the over stocking?   As for milk recovering, we'll see.  By the time it does councils or more importantly the public will be playing mary hell with the cockies over water...

I shoot organic spots, they don't want pure copper as that is a bigger contaminator than lead.

Organic itself, sweet money maker and the market is only going to get bigger.  Faster.   Just think dairy farms that aren't killing the country by having half the stock numbers but earning the same.....   Silly not to.

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## kiwichrish

I shoot on two organic farms near home regularly for possums and hares using a .22  Neither of the owners have ever mentioned lead being a problem and I've been doing it for 13 years now.

Did the farmer say lead was a issue?  Curious...

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## 199p

> I shoot on two organic farms near home regularly for possums and hares using a .22  Neither of the owners have ever mentioned lead being a problem and I've been doing it for 13 years now.
> 
> Did the farmer say lead was a issue?  Curious...


Yip was about the only rule eh
Ended up not worrying about it. Between the houses on the boundary it wasnt worth the risk

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## Tim Dicko

so 338 edge is out of the question?

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## MassiveAttack

I am confused as to what the question is but I am sure the answer is to use an AR15.

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