# Firearms and Shooting > Firearms, Optics and Accessories >  E-CAT Endorsement Requirements

## cambo

I've been looking into exactly what is required to get the E-CAT endorsement.
I can't be looking for the correct thing as I can't seem to find much at all.
What I can't find is application requirements, and a form for any endorsements. 

What I did find so far......

-Storage requirements
http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/defa...nts-pol67n.pdf

-Endorsement Fee's
Standard licence endorsement(s): $204.00 - For one or more endorsements to a standard firearms licence, for the posession of; Target pistols ("B" endorsement), Millitary-style semi-automatic rifles or shotguns [MSSA] ("E" endorsement), a collection of pistols or restricted weapons ("C" Collectors or Museum endorsement), Pistols or restricted weapons for performing a play/film/re-enactment ("C" Theatrical endorsement), Pistols or restricted weapons for hire or sale ("F" endorsement - dealers or their employees).

If anyone has more to add, please do  :Have A Nice Day:

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## foxhound

Go to your local police station and ask for the form for an e cat endorsment, thats the start and there is a number of questions on the form. Ring your AO and he/she will answer any questions you may have before submitting the application. 
Belong to a club that shoots military rifles and have two referees that shoot have E Cat thats the start. Will need an E cat safe or course. Good luck. Took 3months to get mine this year.

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## cambo

Trying to do as much homework as I can before going in to see the AO. 
Having them actually be there would make things easier though.

Getting info for A-CAT is straight forward, but any endorsement seems to be excessively hard.
I would've thought there would be info readily available. 

I have emailed the Police for all the info, so I'll see if they reply with anything helpful.

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## P38

Cambo

Join a Rifle Club .... even if it is only for a short period.

*Don't* mention anything about Hunting on your application form.

*Do* mention Membership of a Rifle Club, competing in Military and 3 Gun matches and/or Pest Control.

*Don't* pick Referees that will mention anything to do with Hunting

*Do* pick Referees that will mention Rifle Club membership, Military competitions, 3 Gun matches and or Pest Control.

Oh and dont say anything about needing an MSSA for Hunting when speaking with the Interviewing Officer.

Upgrade your security to meet E cat requirements, 6mm steel safe is easiest/cheapest, purpose built strongroom is hardest/dearest.

Good Luck.

Cheers
Pete

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## cambo

Cheers guys. Your advise and experiences are appreciated  :Have A Nice Day: 

I'm not applying yet...... I am getting my security upgraded while waiting to see what they will implement in the near future before going ahead with applying. 
Just trying to get as much info together as possible for now. 
Plus hopefully making it easier for others to follow as well.

I'm hoping, with the new "rules" coming soon, they will do some sort of deal for those who already have firearms that will be reclassified by the changes. Whether that be waivering the referee requirement or something else to make things easier......???

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## compound

PTP reasons stated can become conditions attached to the endorsement. If you dont state anything about hunting then by twisted logic you may not be able to use it for that purpose.

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## FletchNZ

> PTP reasons stated can become conditions attached to the endorsement. If you dont state anything about hunting then by twisted logic you may not be able to use it for that purpose.


As compound said, list everything you can think of, ill find what I wrote and post it up as its a common cover all statement. Also don't be discouraged when you first go to your AO to get the form, its their job to talk you out of getting it - mine was anti me getting it when I first went in but he's ok now he knows I'm a legit shooter.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

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## Chupacabra

Don't say I never got you anything :Have A Nice Day:  Possibly out of date though.

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## gimp

That's the same as the one I was given.

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## Bill999

whats reloading got to do with the price of fish?

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## gimp

About as much as what books I have does. It's an awfully small section to fill out with that information!

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## steven

Yeah they are profiling you.

 :Zomg: 

Obviously they are in yesteryear as well.  I dont subscribe to any physical mags, I am subscribed to a lot of sites like this though where the information is up to date and archived and hence searchable and I can ask Qs across the world and be pretty much guaranteed an answer within 24~48 hours...though usually 6 answers, some or all different, LOL

 :Wtfsmilie: 

Anyway it pretty much tells you how to answer,

Ar15, because its competitive (is there anything more competitive?)

Reloading well go buy a setup, $800ish....load a few rounds, who knows you might like it, I do fascinating if a bit frustrating.

 :Thumbsup:

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## dogmatix

Anybody have a pdf scan of the form please?

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## FletchNZ

The correct answer to question one is....

1.	Why do I need a MSSA?
For hunting, target shooting, SRA shooting, collecting and such other lawful uses that may from time to time interest me.

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## FletchNZ

Oh and here is a PDF copy of the form  - though I typed mine out in Word as it was a heap tidier than the form.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...pplication.pdf

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## steven

> The correct answer to question one is....
> 
> 1.	Why do I need a MSSA?
> For hunting, target shooting, SRA shooting, collecting and such other lawful uses that may from time to time interest me.


At twenty, thirty,  yeah I would have been utterly honest, something like the above.  At 50 ive learned the hard way that to get what you want you have to play in others arenas with their game rules in order to get what you want.  

So maybe we should all try and write out good, model answers for the model questions.  Here is my first stab,

So i'd say  I shoot Palma/FTR 308w at a club, I shoot 22LR at another club and I shoot service rifle(s) at another club. I aspire to be competitive at National level and even one day represent my country in international competition.  To do this I believe I need specialist, competitive firearms and use them in a variety of situations so I am safe, familiar and competent with them even in un-expected scenarios.  To that end after advice from my club and my own research I wish to acquire an AR15 and use it as much as possible for all my shooting, which will be target, hunting and competition.

I currently own cat A, an SKS, an SVD/tigr in 308wincester, a Mosin Nagant, and 2 x 22LRs. I also own 4 Lee Enfields so far, one acquired for bush hunting (which is now worn out), one for long range target shooting, the other two I am restoring to original, one for service shooting the last as I like collecting them.  

I reload for all of the above, so 7.62x39mm, 7.62x54R, .303brit, 308wincester.

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## Savage1

If you get caught lying then your whole application will be thrown out and receive a big black mark against your name I imagine.

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## dogmatix

I already use my A-Cat AR and Vepr for hunting, so when they are made MSSA's that will remain a valid use for me.

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## steven

> If you get caught lying then your whole application will be thrown out and receive a big black mark against your name I imagine.


Who said / suggested a lie?   Have you ever got your CV written up?  All I am suggesting is telling the truth but in a way that's a) good english (not my strong point) and b) gets across the valid and truthful points across that count.

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## gimp

Model answers can't hurt to help the less-articulate amongst us.

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## mcche171

Was talking to someone the other day who said that both referees you put forward must also hold an E cat. Is this right? Sounds bloody tough to me. I wouldn't have anybody to testify for me in that situation.

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## gimp

> Was talking to someone the other day who said that both referees you put forward must also hold an E cat. Is this right? Sounds bloody tough to me. I wouldn't have anybody to testify for me in that situation.


I don't think there's any legislation to support that and it makes it unreasonably hard for a lot of people to get

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## Burb122

I got my E and B finally 2 weeks ago. That form is still current. You don't need endorsed referees. My missus no licence   and mate with an A cat were mine. During the interview I was asked the same question many times. Why do I need these endorsements?! Overall it was pretty easy. Just takes a bit of effort on your side.

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## ishoot10s

> Was talking to someone the other day who said that both referees you put forward must also hold an E cat. Is this right? Sounds bloody tough to me. I wouldn't have anybody to testify for me in that situation.


From Section 16.5 of the Police Firearms Manual:

In addition to the usual two referees required for form Pol 67J, the application when
forwarded to the Area Controller shall also have attached two further references as to the
applicant’s character and fitness to possess MSSA’s. The referees* must be endorsement
holders or persons who are serving members of an organisation associated with firearms
or bona fide collectors or persons who are able to demonstrate a long term interest* in
firearms. References from acquaintances, no matter how worthy are of no value unless
they verify the applicant’s fitness for the endorsement.

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## mcche171

Thanks Burb. Good to know and completely agree gimp, would made it near impossible. O well time to get a nice new safe. Any advice on where to buy a good E cat safe around chch?? rather it not be from gun city but needs are needs.

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## steven

> Who said / suggested a lie?   Have you ever got your CV written up?  All I am suggesting is telling the truth but in a way that's a) good english (not my strong point) and b) gets across the valid and truthful points across that count.


Oh and in terms of a black mark that to me means you are not "fit and proper" to hold even a cat A if you have lied to get an E, So I'd expect and hope you would lose your FAL.

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## cambo

Well the reply I got from the Police was nearly useless.
They did however email me the scanned application form. Nothing else though, even though I did ask for ALL the information regarding endorsement requirements.
Not even a worded reply or anything, just the attachment of the scanned form.

It does state on the POL. 67H form that the referees "must be people with currant FAL's who are dealers, collectors, or serving members of a recognised firearms organisation. They must be able to demonstrate long term experiences with firearms. These referees are in addition to the referees nominated for an A licence". 

So they don't need to hold an E-CAT to be a referee, but reading between the lines it would be good to have someone that does.

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## 300winmag

There doesn't seem to be any conformity with AO's, I went around to the local Cop Shop this arfo to get an "E" application form, he was a crumpy bugger.
He crossed out the section on referees and attached another form for referees to complete. He was more worried how the safe was going to be bolted to the floor.
This other form only states that the referees must be over 20, know you well and must have a current FAL.

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## gimp

Everyone ought to just apply for their E. 2000 applications at once would be amusing.

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## cambo

> Everyone ought to just apply for their E. 2000 applications at once would be amusing.


Would be a bit like the Canterbury City Council building permit debarcle. lol

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## big_foot

> Everyone ought to just apply for their E. 2000 applications at once would be amusing.


Especially if all the answers were the same ^^^  :Wtfsmilie:

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## cambo

As an interesting thought with referee's......
Can you use a referee if they live in another city/town? If that person is someone that you hunt/shoot with very regularly, can they be used as a referee?

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## gimp

> As an interesting thought with referee's......
> Can you use a referee if they live in another city/town? If that person is someone that you hunt/shoot with very regularly, can they be used as a referee?


Definitely can for A, so I don't see why not

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## cambo

Cheers Gimp. Good to know.

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## outdoorlad

> Would be a bit like the Canterbury City Council building permit debarcle. lol


Don't fucking start me on that! Nearly 3 months & counting!

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## gimp

I'm going to list my collection of Hemingway novels as shooting related books.

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## R93

I had to have 2 E endorsed referees for my licence. I got it years ago when it first come out so they may have changed it, or have different standards.

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## Ryan

> Definitely can for A, so I don't see why not


Yup, one of mine was out of town and was simply visited by that city's appointed representative.

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## Bill999

fairwell to arms might be what you end up with.......

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## FletchNZ

> As an interesting thought with referee's......
> Can you use a referee if they live in another city/town? If that person is someone that you hunt/shoot with very regularly, can they be used as a referee?


Yes you can but dont, just use local people that you ao can interview easily. I did and it was the reason my e cat app took 6 months instead of 3 months.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

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## marky123

> Don't say I never got you anything Possibly out of date though.
> Attachment 11149
> Attachment 11150


Q.What firearms book,magazines or periodicals do you have or subscribe to?
A.nzhunting and 4 30 rounders under the bed....DOH!

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## 6MMBR

so having a B cat and in a club for a number of years help with getting this endorsement ???

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## mikee

> so having a B cat and in a club for a number of years help with getting this endorsement ???


Yea but don't limit yourself to "Just need it for 3 gun" reason as the endorsment might come with the condition attached (only for range use) or similar

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## gimp

Isn't the "condition" not actually recorded on the license? How can anyone check or enforce the condition? Come to it, I've never run into a cop out hunting anyway.

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## Chupacabra

> Q.What firearms book,magazines or periodicals do you have or subscribe to?
> A.nzhunting and 4 30 rounders under the bed....DOH!


I imagine Catcher In The Rye and Mein Kampf might not be the best to put down  :Have A Nice Day: 

Glad they didn't ask for my B cat about what movies are in my collection... Hitman, Shooter, Punisher and the soon to be added Dredd might raise a few red flags hehe.

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## Brennos

The adult DVD titles might be a bit much for them though.

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## Chupacabra

I quite like G rated movies too, but only if there's lots of sex and violence  :Grin:   :Grin:

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## steven

> I imagine Catcher In The Rye and Mein Kampf might not be the best to put down 
> 
> Glad they didn't ask for my B cat about what movies are in my collection... Hitman, Shooter, Punisher and the soon to be added Dredd might raise a few red flags hehe.


On the other hand, bambi would worry me more....

 :Wtfsmilie: 

I can just imagine it now......what would pass through the AO's mind, "oh god I bet he'll be polishing his AR15 while watching" bambi....

 :Sick:

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## Chupacabra

> On the other hand, bambi would worry me more....


Twisted hehe  :Thumbsup: 


 ... and singing, "This is my rifle this is my gun, this is for fighting and this is for fun"
 :Sick:

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## murky

FWIW, having relatively recently got around to going through the E & B cat process, and having asked the same questions along the way (being a lawyer, I like to know the rules) here's my experience:

It was difficult getting firm information, but the process for me was smooth and trouble free (although you do need to be patient). 

It seems the lack of definitive guidance may be intentional - a means of affording the police a fair degree of discretion. That said, there's plenty of info in the Arms Act, Arms Regulations, and Police Firearm's Manual. There's a lot of incorrect information on the web (gasp), so if you're serious and want to know, it's worth while reading the information available.

Most that have gone through the process will tell you that the police probably won't "encourage" you through the process. They may even seem to be a little "unhelpful" or "difficult". It's up to you to convince them that you're suitable to hold endorsements (rightly so IMHO). Remember, they have to structure their processes for the lowest common denominator and the process is a good way of weeding out the idiots and/or those that aren't really serious (do you really want them running around with AR's?). And before complaining that it's too difficult, remember, there are a lot of countries that have it a lot worse than us (Aussie & UK anyone?) - we've got it pretty sweet here (although perhaps not as sweet as the US!). 

Regarding references, it would seem that:
- The Police have a fair degree of discretion
- The quality of your references really is key, and will determine the number ultimately required
- Each district seems to have a slightly different approach
- For E alone, my understanding is that the minimum is usually two referees and your spouse. Your spouse will be interviewed - butter her up well in advance
- It seems that at least one of your referees must be "endorsed" and preferably hold the same endorsement as you. The endorsement held may however, not necessarily be crucial. For example, it may be possible for a dealer to be sufficient for an E. As mentioned, this is where the police discretion kicks in, and the key seems to come down to the quality of any particular reference. Bull$&it references are easy to spot. The comment made to me was that someone responsible who knows you well but holds a different but suitable endorsement, is better than someone who holds an E but doesn't know you well. 
- You may not get far if none of your referees are endorsed. 
- Additional referees may be required, but they may not be interviewed
- Out of town referees are acceptable, but it will take a lot longer as your file gets sent to the vetter in the other area, the interview conducted, and the file returned. IMHO, having one vetter involved would have to be preferable...
- As I understand it, family members as referees (spouse excluded) are discouraged. Likewise with "someone from the range" that doesn't really know you. 
- For me in Auckland: my spouse was interviewed, I had the Pistol NZ endorsement (mandatory for the B), one quality "endorsed" reference (dealer/E/C who I've known for 20+ years), and one quality personal reference (known for 10+ years, A-cat, and former B-cat). Both my referees were middle-age professionals, and what you'd probably call persons of "good standing". I know others that have struggled with their 25 year old mate of a year as a referee.....

Security - this may ruffle a few feathers but to be honest, if you're too cheap and irresponsible to arrange appropriate E-cat security, then IMHO you're probably not responsible enough to hold an endorsement. Yes it's a hassle, but the current minimum A-cat security requirements are a joke. If you do have genuine reasons for an E Endorsement, chances are security will probably be the one of the cheapest expenses in the long run, and it's there to protect a very "desirable" and dangerous commodity. You'll also have somewhere safe to store your wedding ring while you're on the turps...... 

As for your reasons for requesting an E-cat application - they have already been mentioned variously in previous posts. What I will add is that, again, it's probably very easy to spot the bull$hiters - if you actually have a genuine reason (i.e. a "need") for holding an E, then it should be obvious to you, and should make it easy to satisfy the police. Put all your reasons on the application (but only if they're genuine), because that's what the police will refer back to if there's ever any issue. Word of warning - if you put "hunting" down, you're going to have to be very convincing as to why you an MSSA is needed for hunting (you can use it for hunting, but is it "needed"). If you're working the other way around, have decided you want to be E endorsed, and are now looking for a reason - best go join some appropriate clubs, do your time, pay your dues, and earn it.....

Hope that helps. E&OE - remember this is just my experience, and I can't guarantee any of it is actually correct, nor that your experience will be the same.

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## Bill999

I wonder if "iv spent a lot of money on an ar15 and I an concerned that the upcoming law change will make it illegal for me to own, and iv grown quite attached to it" counts as a valid reason

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## Ryan

> I wonder if "iv spent a lot of money on an ar15 and I an concerned that the upcoming law change will make it illegal for me to own, and iv grown quite attached to it" counts as a valid reason


I think you know the answer to that one.  :Wink:

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## 308

Thanks murky - that was a cogent first post.

My opinion of lawyers has been raised a little

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## cambo

Thanks murky.
That's the sort of info I was after.   :Thumbsup: 

Bill999 - that's also where I'm coming from.

I've also spend a lot of time and money on my AR and use it a lot as it's my only centrefire at the moment.
I'm only looking at getting the E endorsement due to the change in regulations, brought on by knee jerk political reactions.

Security upgrading isn't an issue for me. I'll be doing that anyway.  I'm more than happy to be able to get a better/bigger safe. 

I will wait in anticipation to see what/if they will do to help those of us with rifles that may get reclassified as E-CAT.

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## P38

> Twisted hehe 
> 
> 
>  ... *and singing, "This is my rifle this is my gun, this is for fighting and this is for fun"*


Wish I has a $ for every time I had to repeat that ditty.  :Thumbsup: 

I would have been a wealthy young man after 8 weeks basic training.

Cheers
Pete

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## gimp

Problems I have with E-cat security:


-It's going to be very very difficult for me to implement either of the required methods of securing the safe in my house. There's no underfloor access or concrete floors. I will have to literally rip up the floor.

-Is there actually any proof at all that the bigger heavier and vastly more expensive safe actually reduces theft?

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## P38

> Problems I have with E-cat security:
> 
> 
> -It's going to be very very difficult for me to implement either of the required methods of securing the safe in my house. There's no underfloor access or concrete floors. I will have to literally rip up the floor.
> 
> -Is there actually any proof at all that the bigger heavier and vastly more expensive safe actually reduces theft?


Gimp

The bastards that burgled me barely put a scratch on my safe trying to bust into it.

It's made from 12mm steel and weighs 370kgs.

Cheers
Pete

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## gimp

> Gimp
> 
> The bastards that burgled me barely put a scratch on my safe trying to bust into it.
> 
> It's made from 12mm steel and weighs 370kgs.
> 
> Cheers
> Pete


Do you believe that a standard A-cat safe would have been insufficient? I am genuinely curious to see any information on this because it's very easy to go "well bigger safe = better" but that may not really be the case at all. I am interested to know.

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## P38

> Do you believe that a standard A-cat safe would have been insufficient? I am genuinely curious to see any information on this because it's very easy to go "well bigger safe = better" but that may not really be the case at all. I am interested to know.


Your right an A cat safe would have been sufficient in this case.
In fact they never discovered my A Cat safe, so didn't have a go at it.

It all depends on how determined you are, what tools you have with you and what skills you have.

With the right equipment it would take me 15 minutes to break in and clean out my E cat safe.

I accidently set the alarm off the other night ..... two patrol cars were on site within 3 minutes with the officers asking me who the Fu*k I was.

Cheers
Pete

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## Kscott

> It all depends on how determined you are, what tools you have with you and what skills you have.


This. 

A cat would stop an opportunistic burglar, slow down a well planned one with the correct gear. E cat would slow down the well planned burglar even more, and if it slows them down it's (A) a good deterrent and (B) creates a higher opportunity of being caught due to noise and time. Obviously it also depends on where you live - someone with a grinder at 2am in the city is going to attract more attention than someone living inland from Gore.

The only way to stop any burglar is to store your firearms in a concrete vault, inside a bank, which lives underground in a mountain.

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## murky

> Problems I have with E-cat security:
> 
> 
> -It's going to be very very difficult for me to implement either of the required methods of securing the safe in my house. There's no underfloor access or concrete floors. I will have to literally rip up the floor.
> 
> -Is there actually any proof at all that the bigger heavier and vastly more expensive safe actually reduces theft?



Have to agree, there's situations where the guidelines just won't work. I also think there's a balance to be struck - having a safe bolted to the concrete pad in your detached garage may not be as "secure" as a safe in your wardrobe bolted to the floor.  I'd have a chat to your local vetter - I know of instances where alternative arrangements have been acceptable. For example, huge steel plate bolted to the floor, safe welded or bolted permanently to the plate and floor (bolts were welded or loctite'd so they can't be undone). 

The safe room requirements can sometimes be a little easier if you're handy - from memory there's an option where you replace the gib with mesh and construction ply, and install a secure door (steel plate/locks etc). Need not be a room - could be a wardrobe or something.

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## Digit

> Have to agree, there's situations where the guidelines just won't work. I also think there's a balance to be struck - having a safe bolted to the concrete pad in your detached garage may not be as "secure" as a safe in your wardrobe bolted to the floor.  I'd have a chat to your local vetter - I know of instances where alternative arrangements have been acceptable. For example, huge steel plate bolted to the floor, safe welded or bolted permanently to the plate and floor (bolts were welded or loctite'd so they can't be undone). 
> 
> The safe room requirements can sometimes be a little easier if you're handy - from memory there's an option where you replace the gib with mesh and construction ply, and install a secure door (steel plate/locks etc). Need not be a room - could be a wardrobe or something.


That is what I was going to suggest. A safe room could be the way to go if you have a spare room available. Build a man cave while you are at it.

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## James J.

Is it possible, after serving the military it is easier to get your E-CAT, understanding you need an E-CAT when your in the military since they use 30 round mags. 
The reason could be your taking a break from the military and you need to keep your shooting at the same recommendations and your joined a rifle club.

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## Feral

> Is it possible, after serving the military it is easier to get your E-CAT, understanding you need an E-CAT when your in the military since they use 30 round mags. 
> The reason could be your taking a break from the military and you need to keep your shooting at the same recommendations and your joined a rifle club.


Far as I'm aware being military or ex military has nothing to do with it. You don't have an E-Cat in the military - you just get vetted for security and then trained on the range of weapons from 9mm to 105mm depending on your job  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Ryan

Just to add that someone mentioned that one of your character referees had to be E-endorsed. My AO did not specifically mention this at all - just that I required 3 of them, AO discretion perhaps? It's not listed as a requirement on the POL67 form.

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## cambo

> Just to add that someone mentioned that one of your character referees had to be E-endorsed. My AO did not specifically mention this at all - just that I required 3 of them, AO discretion perhaps? It's not listed as a requirement on the POL67 form.


Yeah, its not a requirement to have FAL endorsed referees, but it certainly does help.

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## TotaraHunter

TLDR

Looking at getting the E cat endorsement and reading up on the application. Is ONLY item 1 below a valid reason for getting E-cat endorsement. I was under the impression that all E-cat holders need to be involved with competition or a requirement for work. I have no intention of doing either. 

FYI my collection consists of a .22. Looking at a AR-15 to add to my "collection".

A few years ago I sold my SL8 to a friend. Apparently him having this rifle in itself was a good enough reason to get a E-cat.





> The individual applying for the endorsement:
> 1. seeks to possess the MSSA as part of a collection, and demonstrates
> that it fits with and enhances an existing or planned collection, or
> 2. participates in an identifiable shooting discipline or sport at an
> incorporated sports club with rules encouraging safe and legal use of
> firearms and a range certified for the shooting activity and intends to
> use the MSSA in an event at that sports club, or
> 3. wishes to use the MSSA in a capacity equivalent to that described in
> section 29(2)(e) of the Arms Act 1983 (theatrical purposes), or
> 4. requires the MSSA for occupational purposes.

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## Beavis

The only requirements for an E endorsement are that the individual is fit and proper and can satisfy security requirements. All the rest of it is made up. You have a right to apply for it and they have an obligation to consider all applications.

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## Koshogi

> TLDR
> 
> Looking at getting the E cat endorsement and reading up on the application. Is ONLY item 1 below a valid reason for getting E-cat endorsement. I was under the impression that all E-cat holders need to be involved with competition or a requirement for work. I have no intention of doing either. 
> 
> FYI my collection consists of a .22. Looking at a AR-15 to add to my "collection".
> 
> A few years ago I sold my SL8 to a friend. Apparently him having this rifle in itself was a good enough reason to get a E-cat.


You don't need a 'reason ' or be a member of anything.  Put down what you actually want them for, and include "and any other lawful purpose ".

The law only requires you to be "a fit and proper person ".

"30B Power to make endorsement in respect of military style semi-automatic firearm
On receiving an application under section 30A, a member of the Police may, subject to any direction from the Commissioner, make the endorsement applied for if that member is satisfied that the applicant is a fit and proper person to be in possession of the military style semi-automatic firearm to which that application relates."

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/p.../DLM72942.html

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## TotaraHunter

Ok doesn't seem to be that difficult then. I was wanting to build a precision AR and going E-cat is "only way" I can do it.

Wife has said straight out NO though. I'm having a very hard time convincing her and at this stage its not looking good.

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## specweapon

> I was wanting to build a precision AR and going E-cat is "only way" I can do it.


Why is E cat the only way totarahunter?

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## Sasquatch

Also why does your wife oppose it? Tell her its no different to getting your class 4 on your NZDL. It expands your licence & allows you to do more. Basically you can lawfully buy MSSA's in their normal config, not restricted due to essentially aesthetic reasons.

----------


## Carlsen Highway

Your wife knows the difference between an AR15 that is an A cat and an AR15 that is an E cat?

----------


## Jexla

He's talking about the cost alone I imagine....

----------


## 7mmwsm

> Ok doesn't seem to be that difficult then. I was wanting to build a precision AR and going E-cat is "only way" I can do it.
> 
> Wife has said straight out NO though. I'm having a very hard time convincing her and at this stage its not looking good.


Plenty of new wives out there.

----------


## dogmatix

I dread the day my wife finds out how many ARs I actually have. E and A.

----------


## MassiveAttack

> I dread the day my wife finds out how many ARs I actually have. E and A.


They all look the same to the uneducated eye.  Don't take them all out of the safe all at once.

----------


## dogmatix

The best thing about acquiring ARs, is that you can do it in parts.  :Grin: 

Her last week: 'What was in the courier bag?'
Me: 'Just some small parts'

----------


## Sasquatch

Nice @dogmatix I use that line to. Always emphasizing that it is something _small_ lol

----------


## systolic

> The best thing about acquiring ARs, is that you can do it in parts. 
> 
> Her last week: 'What was in the courier bag?'
> Me: 'Just some small parts'


You don't get gun related stuff delivered to your house do you?

----------


## dogmatix

Normally to work to avoid any 'issues', but was on holiday at the time.

----------


## systolic

> Normally to work to avoid any 'issues', but was on holiday at the time.


And people wonder how they get targeted for robberies of their guns.

----------


## Glycerine

> And people wonder how they get targeted for robberies of their guns.


where else would you get your parts sent to?
how does one even know whats in the package?

apart for overseas ones baring a declaration I've never received a package that says gun/rifle/gun parts on it

----------


## Tommy

> And people wonder how they get targeted for robberies of their guns.


You really say some dumb shit

----------


## dogmatix

> And people wonder how they get targeted for robberies of their guns.


Let's see, hmmm, how about from having gun related stickers on their cars, living in the countryside, talking to the wrong people, this includes your kids blagging off at school, having firearms with crap levels of security, ie under the bed, in a wardrobe, in a weak wooden cupboard or left in a car.

Care to enlighten us then how an unmarked small sized NZ courier bag with a private name address and private name return address somehow contributes to firearms theft?
This is different to the other 3 courier bags I had delivered from the Warehouse, Kathmandu and Barkers?

Eagerly awaiting your well researched with empirical evidence and peer reviewed thoughts.

----------


## 7mmwsm

> You don't get gun related stuff delivered to your house do you?


Yes I do. 
My drive is a km long. I can see most of it from my house. There's a whole pile stuff riddled with bullet hole along the length of the drive. I have a crazy dog wandering around. I have twin daughter's who are both first dan black belts. And here's a picture of my door mat. Try your luck.

----------


## 7mmwsm

I probably should add that I don't have anywhere else to get my mail delivered to either.

----------


## 308

Guys, under "Settings" ya find the "Edit Ignore User" tab in your sidebar and add a certain fuckwit's name to it - it's bought me a world of peace

----------


## stretch

> Guys, under "Settings" ya find the "Edit Ignore User" tab in your sidebar and add a certain fuckwit's name to it - it's bought me a world of peace


Unfortunately ignored user's posts still appear in the thread.

----------


## systolic

> where else would you get your parts sent to?
> how does one even know whats in the package?
> 
> apart for overseas ones baring a declaration I've never received a package that says gun/rifle/gun parts on it


How well do you trust the people sending you stuff? Not just gun parts.

I sold an old Swazi jacket to a guy a year or two ago on Trademe. Posted it to his home address. Google showed the address was a residential house with a trampoline in the back yard. 

A look through his feedback showed him buying and selling rifles and all kinds of related items, including lots of AR15 parts.  I recognized his Trademe name as very similar to his user name on a firearms forum (not this one) and saw he was a B and E licence holder and looking to get his C as well. 

In a few minutes, I had his name and address and even photos of some of his E cat guns. He was selling a motorbike on Trademe which gave me his mobile number as well. In the background of the motorbike photos was the trampoline, confirming where he lived. 

Remember Operation Eight when the cops gave shitloads of people's full Trademe details to criminals and their lawyers?

----------


## dogmatix

You raise valid points about online sales. Online sales was an avenue I meant to include in my reply.
The dodgiest sales, including firearms, were and are Facebook 'sales' forums. Even with FB blocking firearms related sales, they still happen via closed groups.
Anyone mad enough to join a general one is nuts.

However in all of this, I fail to see how a courier delivery in an unmarked bag to my home address *from a commercial firearms dealer (who already has my license details, credit card details, and home address*) has anything to do with me being robbed for my firearms as opposed to me having the same items delivered to my work (which is my normal delivery address, as the items can be signed for by reception).

----------


## systolic

> You raise valid points about online sales. Online sales was an avenue I meant to include in my reply.
> The dodgiest sales, including firearms, were and are Facebook 'sales' forums. Even with FB blocking firearms related sales, they still happen via closed groups.
> Anyone mad enough to join a general one is nuts.
> 
> However in all of this, I fail to see how a courier delivery in an unmarked bag to my home address *from a commercial firearms dealer (who already has my license details, credit card details, and home address*) has anything to do with me being robbed for my firearms as opposed to me having the same items delivered to my work (which is my normal delivery address, as the items can be signed for by reception).


Why would you trust a dealer to keep your information safe? Why would you get any gun related items, let alone guns, ever sent to your home? You are mad.

The wankers at gun city sold a guy with only an A licence 50 Ruger 10/22s, 50 pistol grip stocks, big magazines and lasers for cash. 

Man jailed for selling guns to gang | Radio New Zealand News

Do you think none of the staff of a gun shop would ever 'share' a copy of the dealers book if offered enough money?

How about the guy who worked at Carvell's up in Auckland. The dodgy old prick had a firearms licence in a false name and worked there for years and the owner never even knew his real name until he was arrested and deported! 

Most gun salesmen are on the same level as used car salesmen. Only interested in money. I wouldn't trust any as far as I could throw them.

----------


## dogmatix

There are dodgy people everywhere, again the examples I outlined are more likely to have you robbed than a courier package.
Joe Green will agree with me, as there is empirical evidence to back this up.

----------


## Tommy

Never mind just plain following you home from the range

----------


## Beavis

The only sure fire way to not be targeted for owning firearms is to not own firearms. If you ever go to a gun shop, do you park 3 blocks away from it and walk round in circles a few times to make sure you aren't being followed?

----------


## systolic

> The only sure fire way to not be targeted for owning firearms is to not own firearms. If you ever go to a gun shop, do you park 3 blocks away from it and walk round in circles a few times to make sure you aren't being followed?


No, but I don't have my car or motorbike registered to my home address and the gun shop doesn't have my home address either.

And my arms officer puts my delivery or PO Box address on all permits, not my home address where anything is stored.

----------


## Koshogi

> No, but I don't have my car or motorbike registered to my home address and the gun shop doesn't have my home address either.
> 
> And my arms officer puts my delivery or PO Box address on all permits, not my home address where anything is stored.


If your gun shop doesn't record your address when you purchase a firearm, they are in breach of the law. Reference: Regulation 7(4)(c) Arms Regulations 1992

----------


## systolic

> If your gun shop doesn't record your address when you purchase a firearm, they are in breach of the law. Reference: Regulation 7(4)(c) Arms Regulations 1992


They record an address, but it's never been my home address. How would they ever know anyway?

They simply write down what I tell them.

----------


## Koshogi

> They record an address, but it's never been my home address. How would they ever know anyway?
> 
> They simply write down what I tell them.


So your admitting to lying? "Fit and proper person"?

----------


## systolic

> So your admitting to lying? "Fit and proper person"?


Where in the regulations does it say _home address_ or the _address where the guns are stored_? 

I have a contact address that is recorded. The same one my arms officer uses for my permits. He knows its not my home address. And he knows it's used for security of my guns.

----------


## Glycerine

> Why would you trust a dealer to keep your information safe? Why would you get any gun related items, let alone guns, ever sent to your home? You are mad.


I hope so, they are fit a proper people after all,




> The wankers at gun city sold a guy with only an A licence 50 Ruger 10/22s, 50 pistol grip stocks, big magazines and lasers for cash.


my mum can buy these parts legally without a FAL, its not illegal to buy the parts, its what you do with them




> Do you think none of the staff of a gun shop would ever 'share' a copy of the dealers book if offered enough money?


I hope not, they are fit and proper... but some people have a price, does your A.O.? he might? paranoid much? 




> How about the guy who worked at Carvell's up in Auckland. The dodgy old prick had a firearms licence in a false name and worked there for years and the owner never even knew his real name until he was arrested and deported!


improper checks, happens in all jobs.




> Most gun salesmen are on the same level as used car salesmen. Only interested in money. I wouldn't trust any as far as I could throw them.


its there job... its how they get paid.

Seriously, where do you buy your guns/parts? you sound so fucken paranoid,
do you sleep with a loaded gun under your pillow? JUST IN CASE?!

you sound more dodgy than the people you claim to worry about...
your the one looking for peoples details,




> I sold an old Swazi jacket to a guy a year or two ago on Trademe. Posted it to his home address. Google showed the address was a residential house with a trampoline in the back yard. 
> 
> A look through his feedback showed him buying and selling rifles and all kinds of related items, including lots of AR15 parts. I recognized his Trademe name as very similar to his user name on a firearms forum (not this one) and saw he was a B and E licence holder and looking to get his C as well. 
> 
> In a few minutes, I had his name and address and even photos of some of his E cat guns. He was selling a motorbike on Trademe which gave me his mobile number as well. In the background of the motorbike photos was the trampoline, confirming where he lived.

----------


## systolic

> I hope so, they are fit a proper people after all,
> 
> 
> 
> my mum can buy these parts legally without a FAL, its not illegal to buy the parts, its what you do with them
> 
> 
> 
> I hope not, they are fit and proper... but some people have a price, does your A.O.? he might? paranoid much? 
> ...



To prove you are 'fit and proper' all you have to do is show you don't beat your wife or get too drunk too often. And a couple of people to say to the cops that you don't.

Your mum can buy 50 rifles, pistol grips stocks, silencers, lasers and 20 shotguns without a licence, really? She could supply the Head Hunters too.

I buy my guns, ammo and parts all over the place. Gunshops, Trademe, Carvell's and Rodgers' auctions. I import parts and accessories from overseas as well.

I just never get anything delivered to my home address to make it harder for criminals to rob my house.

Not paranoid, just careful. 

I don't want to end up like that collector in Dargaville in May or the one in Dunedin in October.

But some people are stupid enough to put enough information on the internet to make it easy for robbers to target them. Like the guy I sold the Swazi to.

There was two separate guys bidding on a 20 round AR15 magazine on Trademe yesterday (the auction has been taken down now). One in Wellington, the other in Whakatane.

Going through both their feedback pages you could see all the gun stuff they had both been buying. It was clear both owned a few guns, including AR15s and SLRs.

Both of them were selling cars and had their names and phone numbers in the listings. Any robber only has to ring up and say "Hey Vince, nice Holden. Where do I come for a look? and they have the address where there are guns kept.

Vince and Mark are fucking stupid for putting that kind of information online for any cunt to see with a few clicks of a mouse. 

The cops have my real address if they need it. Anyone else can get fucked.  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## 7mmwsm

Perhaps Vince and Mark might be smart enough to say "ok dude, catch you up outside the police station and you can check out my car there"(or some other neutral place) and go from there.
Systolic, have you by any chance posted in the "whats everyone do for a crust" thread? I would quite like to know a bit about your background.

----------


## Glycerine

> To prove you are 'fit and proper' all you have to do is show you don't beat your wife or get too drunk too often. And a couple of people to say to the cops that you don't.


yeah you had the same check... how do we know your more fit and proper than anyone else?




> Your mum can buy 50 rifles, pistol grips stocks, silencers, lasers and 20 shotguns without a licence, really? She could supply the Head Hunters too.


i said "parts" didnt say guns, anyone can buy scopes, lasers, stocks, barrels etc.

there not doing anything illegal buying parts, like i said.. its what you do with them.

----------


## systolic

> Perhaps Vince and Mark might be smart enough to say "ok dude, catch you up outside the police station and you can check out my car there"(or some other neutral place) and go from there.
> Systolic, have you by any chance posted in the "whats everyone do for a crust" thread? I would quite like to know a bit about your background.


So............., in a discussion about what I do, or don't do, to keep my address secret and stuff secure, you want me to tell you about my background?

How does "Not Fucking Likely!" sound?

----------


## 7mmwsm

> So............., in a discussion about what I do, or don't do, to keep my address secret and stuff secure, you want me to tell you about my background?
> 
> How does "Not Fucking Likely!" sound?


You make out you know a lot about everything. I didn't ask for info which would give any indication as to where you lived etc. But I do have reservations about your actual knowledge base. And fast drawing the conclusion that you are an "opinionated  wannabbee".

----------


## AzumitH

systolic is a low tier journo bouncing around the forum stirring shit so further down the track juicy screenshots can be clipped out for a scathing hit piece on why guns are the tools of satan himself, calling it now.

----------


## 10-Ring

> So............., in a discussion about what I do, or don't do, to keep my address secret and stuff secure, you want me to tell you about my background?
> 
> How does "Not Fucking Likely!" sound?


Paranoid Personality Disorder. Makes for some interesting reading. 

Paranoid Personality Disorder Symptoms | Psych Central

----------


## systolic

> systolic is a low tier journo bouncing around the forum stirring shit so further down the track juicy screenshots can be clipped out for a scathing hit piece on why guns are the tools of satan himself, calling it now.


No.

----------


## systolic

> Paranoid Personality Disorder. Makes for some interesting reading. 
> 
> Paranoid Personality Disorder Symptoms | Psych Central


My therapist says I'm paranoid. Well he didn't actually say that, I but I know he was thinking it.

----------


## Tommy

You can be paranoid and still have people out to get you.

----------


## Sasquatch

You are a strange one. I say lifes to short to always be arguing for the sake of arguing & going against the grain with others. 

Maybe try a more friendly approach @systolic to the forum. This forum has always had shit banta no doubt but as a collective of good _honest_ info & advice it's mostly been good. Also people here considering the times we are living in are sticking together more then ever now so rather then trying to criticize others heavily, perhaps consider a more helpful approach.

----------


## timattalon

> You can be paranoid and still have people out to get you.


Just because you are paranoid, it doesn't make you wrong.........

----------


## tommygun

A little paranoia is healthy I think, for example I am weary of security issues arising from tardme like mentioned above, so I use a different tardme account (a family member's one actually, having two yourself is against their rules I imagine) for anything firearm related, with anything that might give away my address (e.g. flatmates wanted, vehicles for sale) being listed on another. 

Getting back to the E endorsement question, I think mine was all sorted within 2-3 weeks, probably sped things along by listing two well-known collectors in town, both being on good terms with the arms officers through decades of shooting, hell the arms officer probably had them on speed-dial. My understanding is that if your referees hold the endorsement it helps, but if not then try to list dealers/gun store owners, police officers, people with a lot of experience in the Deerstalkers Association or Mountain Safety Council, that type of thing. As above, you may run into trouble trying to list hunting/pest control by itself, as I've heard they will try to make you justify it, as in at least 80% of your income must come from pest control services to warrant using those big scary magazines, but I'm not sure if this is true. The way I see it, if you are a serious shooter you won't have any issues as you'll inevitably have joined a club where they shoot service rifle, and can just say that. I see reloading the same way; if you do enough shooting you're eventually going to end up loading your own.

----------


## Savage1

Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of delusion and irrationality.

----------


## 308

> Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of delusion and irrationality.


I know some paranoid people who aren't like that, another type entirely - they have this belief that they are superior as they know the "real truth" and that the "sheeple" are being fed bullshit by the "lamestream media"
All terribly tiresome

I think being security conscious is fair enough but some paranoiacs have trouble understanding that they aren't worth being a target as they aren't that important

----------


## tommygun

> Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of delusion and irrationality.


The fear of having firearms stolen is a rational fear, something worth being anxious about, and taking steps to prevent.
The fear of the aliens (who are bankrolled by the Illuminati) reading your thoughts via a satellite is irrational, and wearing a tinfoil hat to prevent it is silly.

----------


## timattalon

> The fear of having firearms stolen is a rational fear, something worth being anxious about, and taking steps to prevent.
> _The fear of the aliens (who are bankrolled by the Illuminati) reading your thoughts via a satellite is irrational, and wearing a tinfoil hat to prevent it is silly._


I love these ones....Why would aliens travel that far and wonder what we are thinking? It would mean as much to them as us developing the same technology then using it on sheep to find out what they are thinking......And for the conspiracy that they are in league with other humans; well, would you conspire with a sheep to find out what other sheep are thinking? Or are you like everyone else and dont really give a toss what food thinks?

And finally as a paraphrase from a movie called "Paul" re the abduction and anal probing, would they really travel that far just to harvest farts?

----------


## Percy Jones

I have just read through 8 pages of this post looking for the information on how to beat the system and get an E endorsement. The Kiwi gunblog guy has posted the police association's, now not secret thanks to an OIA, submission to the arms inquiry committee and in it it specifically mentions them reading forums and seeing posts about how to beat the system to get an E. 
On their presentation notes they have the link to this forum and this thread.

So conclusive proof then that someone is following this and probably other forums and data mining it for their own ends.

----------


## 199p

> I have just read through 8 pages of this post looking for the information on how to beat the system and get an E endorsement. The Kiwi gunblog guy has posted the police association's, now not secret thanks to an OIA, submission to the arms inquiry committee and in it it specifically mentions them reading forums and seeing posts about how to beat the system to get an E. 
> On their presentation notes they have the link to this forum and this thread.
> 
> So conclusive proof then that someone is following this and probably other forums and data mining it for their own ends.


But you dont need to beat the system just need to have real reasons
 why your want to use a mssa over a non mssa firearm. 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

----------


## Beavis

I just skim read the whole thread myself and couldn't see anything that would suggest we have "cheated" the system either. But we now know the Police Association are a bunch of chicken little pricks that would rather nobody had an E endorsement.

----------


## Ryan

> Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of delusion and irrationality.


... And police and their association are demonstrating a firm grasp of this thought concept.

----------


## Koshogi

For those wondering what the NZ Police Association was saying about this thread in their submission:



and



As we know they are reading this, let's show them what the law ACTUALLY requires:

_Arms Act 1983
30B Power to make endorsement in respect of military style semi-automatic firearm

On receiving an application under section 30A, a member of the Police may, subject to any direction from the Commissioner, make the endorsement applied for if that member is satisfied that the applicant is a fit and proper person to be in possession of the military style semi-automatic firearm to which that application relates._

Where's the "_requirements on legitimate membership of Rifle Club, participating in’3 gun matches’_ " or "_ the need for pest control_ "? 

There isn't one. The drafter of that document (perhaps the President of the Police Association?) is either incompetent or a liar.

Any lawful purpose *IS* a valid use for a MSSA. Not the reasons that the NZ Police Association feel is 'suitable'.

----------


## 199p

> For those wondering what the NZ Police Association was saying about this thread in their submission:
> 
> Attachment 66926
> 
> and
> 
> Attachment 66927
> 
> As we know they are reading this, let's show them what the law ACTUALLY requires:
> ...


Exactly and hunting is pest control, I know a few farms i had access too had big old bull holes that the rabbets would love to dig and play in, sometimes u would walk up and 5 rabbits would take off in all directions.

----------


## systolic

> So conclusive proof then that someone is following this and probably other forums and data mining it for their own ends.


Shock horror! People are reading information on a public internet forum!

----------


## Danger Mouse

I hope the liars are still reading this thread. They just got called on their BS. Yet again making S&^t up to get their way, and not enforcing the law.

----------


## Beavis

Their lies and bullshit and own statistics are all ammo we can use against them.

----------


## Russian 22.

Just to add on to the manufacturing of arms. A quick YouTube and Google provides a wide range of information on how to make a fully automatic sub machine gun or pistols. Shit ones but nonetheless they'll still fire bullets and lots of them. They've found them in Australia so it's not inconceivable that the knowledge and experience has cone across the ditch.

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

----------


## Ryan

3D printing and someone who's "good with tools" can make anything now.

----------


## veitnamcam

You will need a permit to procure a printer or a lathe next 😣
Next stop dictatorship.

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## matto1234

i cant warrant applying for a E cat with my current shooting activities and the costs to do so but that doesnt stop me from owning exactly the same semi auto firearm with a smaller capacity magazine and storing it in a safe which wouldnt meet the standards of an E cat license holder  :Wtfsmilie:  makes me wonder if it is just a money gathering scheme cause it makes no difference what so ever to the functionality of the firearm.

----------


## Knoxy_09

> i cant warrant applying for a E cat with my current shooting activities and the costs to do so but that doesnt stop me from owning exactly the same semi auto firearm with a smaller capacity magazine and storing it in a safe which wouldnt meet the standards of an E cat license holder  makes me wonder if it is just a money gathering scheme cause it makes no difference what so ever to the functionality of the firearm.


Yea that's one thing I've never been able to grasp with E-cat, my A-cat semi auto functions exactly the same but it's just looks uglier and I have to reload more often. It would be nice to have my SLR looking 'proper' but in my current situation I can't justify spending that much more money on a new safe + licence just to have a bigger mag and better aesthetics. I guess that's why the Police are pushing to make ALL semi autos E-cat.

----------


## matto1234

Be looking forward to my new government subsidized E cat safe and endorsement fee waiver then

----------


## 308

Keeping in mind that this very thread was quoted by police in their secret submission regarding arms policy as a "cheat sheet" for people to get an E-cat license through some nefarious backdoor means (which were never quite explained) I would point out that the reason why you feel funny about the odd-seeming line between what is an E-cat and what is an A-cat is most likely to be for the extremely good reason that the whole E-cat definition concept is about as much good as a chocolate fireblanket and was invented by eedjits

It feels stupid because it is stupid, and I say that as a B/E/C endorsed shooter - it's the same fuckin gun just with different furniture

Now they want universal registration and these muppets have missed the bus totally - if they had wanted to limit high-cap mags for example then it would make some sort of sense but instead the police have chased after pistol grips and flash hiders which are red herrings - a pistol grip makes threequarters of fuckall difference to how deadly a firearm can be in the hands of someone with ill intent - how about limiting shoot-em-up zombie killing videogames? Someone could surely make a case for saying that they habituate users to killing human-like people
Not to dump on gamers, more to point out how pathetic the reasoning behind the secret submission has been

Instead of just ranting we can point out to the next non-shooting member of the public that they should care about the proposal to universally register firearms because it is a total boondoggle - remind your non-shooting mates that it will make Novapay look cheap and remember the magic word- "INCIS"



The police are meant to keep a register of current firearms for B / E / C cat users and in my case they can't even achieve that with any level of accuracy
If they had a record of showing that they are competent then I might consider it a good idea on its merits but they can't even keep up with the system that they run now, why the fuck should these spankcarrots waste my tax dollars for no damn good reason on a system that is set up to fail and will drive more legal fireams users underground?

You want my money to keep fucking up and you expect me to agree?

Go take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut

----------


## Ryan

> Be looking forward to my new government subsidized E cat safe and endorsement fee waiver then


Might be waiting a while.

I am, as always, up for correction but as far as I'm aware there's never been a government subsidised anything when it comes to _securing_ a firearm. However if one has satisfactory security in place already, all you need to do is register your firearm and your endorsement application fee of ~$200 is waived.

#priorities

----------


## matto1234

> Might be waiting a while.
> 
> I am, as always, up for correction but as far as I'm aware there's never been a government subsidised anything when it comes to _securing_ a firearm. However if one has satisfactory security in place already, all you need to do is register your firearm and your endorsement application fee of ~$200 is waived.
> 
> #priorities


Not everybody with an A Cat license has sufficient security to satisfy E Cat requirement though and not all can afford a $1000+ new safe

----------


## systolic

> Not everybody with an A Cat license has sufficient security to satisfy E Cat requirement though and not all can afford a $1000+ new safe


You don't have to get an E cat safe.You could sell your semi auto guns instead. Then use the money to buy a Tikka T3.

----------


## matto1234

Why on earth would i do that? Just because i dont need a 30 round mag doesnt mean i dont need a semi auto.

----------


## mikee

> Why on earth would i do that? Just because i dont need a 30 round mag doesnt mean i dont need a semi auto.


I suspect you might be being "trolled", because you are "fit and proper" and  I want one should be the only reason you need. Semi auto or not, big mag .........or not.

I have never quite worked out why you can be trusted with gun type "A" but not with type "B" as its somehow more dangerouser  :Grin:

----------


## Sasquatch

> You don't have to get an E cat safe.You could sell your semi auto guns instead. Then use the money to buy a Tikka T3.


Why not have both? Both are equally as good dependant on application/needs.

Dear God, does every single one of your posts have to be trolling you semi-auto hating fruitcake.

----------


## systolic

> Why not have both? Both are equally as good dependant on application/needs.
> 
> Dear God, does every single one of your posts have to be trolling you semi-auto hating fruitcake.


I'm simply giving him options to avoid buying an E cat safe. although if he's serious about security, he should already have one.

Oh, and you don't shouldn't use blasphemy in your posts. This is a Christian country.

----------


## dogmatix

Take your religion and discuss on another forum please. Ideally one where you are the only member.

----------


## 199p

> Why not have both? Both are equally as good dependant on application/needs.
> 
> Dear God, does every single one of your posts have to be trolling you semi-auto hating fruitcake.


Can people stop quoting him onky way i see his dribble 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

----------


## dogmatix

Just added the first name to my ignore list.

----------


## Danger Mouse

me too.

----------


## mikee

> me too.


Added to mine since ages ago  :Grin:

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## JWB

> Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of delusion and irrationality.


That must be why the police tool-up with assault rifles, hi-capacity pistols, stun guns and body armour, when they go out to mix and mingle with their public that loves them. When they get a little more anxious they go full Swat with the black ninja gear, attack dogs, helicopters, snipers, to arrest a fat man hiding in closet.

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## dogmatix

To be fair, they were tooled up because they were nervous of the fat mans's poorly paid security guards. Who were more personal assistants than guards.

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## Carlsen Highway

> I'm simply giving him options to avoid buying an E cat safe. although if he's serious about security, he should already have one.
> 
> Oh, and you don't shouldn't use blasphemy in your posts. This is a Christian country.



No it's not. Thank the fucking lord.

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## JWB

> To be fair, they were tooled up because they were nervous of the fat mans's poorly paid security guards. Who were more personal assistants than guards.


Surely you're not suggesting that plod believed that fat boy had armed security guards. Such a belief would have been acted on months/years beforehand, and would have resulted in his residency being revoked and said gent sent packing.
No what we saw then and now is plain fear and paranoia from the blue nancys. Apologists like yourself will always have some excuse, and can often be quite noisy, defending your pets, but I have a fond hope that you still are a minority.

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## Tommy

> Surely you're not suggesting that plod believed that fat boy had armed security guards. Such a belief would have been acted on months/years beforehand, and would have resulted in his residency being revoked and said gent sent packing.
> No what we saw then and now is plain fear and paranoia from the blue nancys. Apologists like yourself will always have some excuse, and can often be quite noisy, defending your pets, but I have a fond hope that you still are a minority.


Dude, you are so far off the mark it ain't funny.

[Edit - spelling]

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## JWB

You are absolutely correct! It's about power and intimidation. Sending the message that you can be killed if you step out of line.

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## Tommy

> You are absolutely correct! It's about power and intimidation. Sending the message that you can be killed if you step out of line.


Nah, If I'm working on loud shit I wear earmuffs. If a known fuckwit has guns and they have shit to do there, bloody right they should have all the gear necessary. It's real funny until you have rounds snapping over your head I'm told. ( The Big Fat German's guards [B]did/B] in fact have firearms by the way: Dotcom&#39;s former bodyguard escapes gun charges | Stuff.co.nz)

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## Savage1

> That must be why the police tool-up with assault rifles, hi-capacity pistols, stun guns and body armour, when they go out to mix and mingle with their public that loves them. When they get a little more anxious they go full Swat with the black ninja gear, attack dogs, helicopters, snipers, to arrest a fat man hiding in closet.


Yeah police show the following symptons of intense paranoia:
- No general arming
- Not wearing ballistic body armour when dealing with the general public that loves them
- Often work alone
- Don't have assault rifles
- Use standard capacity magazines in their pistols

Next time there is a high risk job with little intel I'll try my best to get them to contact you for some expert Internet Warrior advice on how to deal with the fluid situation.

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## JWB

> Nah, If I'm working on loud shit I wear earmuffs. If a known fuckwit has guns and they have shit to do there, bloody right they should have all the gear necessary. It's real funny until you have rounds snapping over your head I'm told. ( The Big Fat German's guards [B]did/B] in fact have firearms by the way: Dotcom's former bodyguard escapes gun charges | Stuff.co.nz)


Wrong this time. You are stopped on the roadside by the blue nancys. Your vehicle rego tells them that you have firearms. To play it safe you are treated the way the fat boy was.


> 72 police officers including the heavily armed Special Tactics Group and the Armed Offenders Squad descended on his family home on January 20, 2012.which included two helicopters landing just outside his family home with officers wielding M4 Bushmaster rifles who held The Dotcom family at gunpoint  and caused considerable damage to his property.


 It is about power and intimidation. That is why piggy baiting should be a national sport. Not brown nosing.

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## 40mm

> Cambo
> 
> Join a Rifle Club .... even if it is only for a short period.
> 
> *Don't* mention anything about Hunting on your application form.
> 
> *Do* mention Membership of a Rifle Club, competing in Military and 3 Gun matches and/or Pest Control.
> 
> *Don't* pick Referees that will mention anything to do with Hunting
> ...


I took my ak and 30rnd mag hunting. Saw nothing though. Will keep trying till I blast bambi with its iron sights. Why not. (ps, at my current rate of hunting trips, this might take a few years...)

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## Carlsen Highway

Just reading above, why should you not mention hunting when talking to the officer? If its legal to go hunting with an MSSA then how could they decline to give you an endorsement if you say that's what your going to do?

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## dogmatix

> Surely you're not suggesting that plod believed that fat boy had armed security guards. Such a belief would have been acted on months/years beforehand, and would have resulted in his residency being revoked and said gent sent packing.
> No what we saw then and now is plain fear and paranoia from the blue nancys. Apologists like yourself will always have some excuse, and can often be quite noisy, defending your pets, but I have a fond hope that you still are a minority.


WTF?
You are such a tool, its almost funny.

Another idiot to add to the block list, alongside systolic.

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## Carlsen Highway

Jesus steady on there, your going to block me next.

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## Tommy

As soon as a guy starts calling police 'pigs', we have a winner.

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## Walker

Just to calm things just a little, The Health and safty act demands that employers take all steps to ensure the safty of you employees, therefore PHQ are going to insist that any event, arrest etc has the troops tooled up incase of un-expected trouble.

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## dogmatix

> Jesus steady on there, your going to block me next.


Carlsen, I knew he was a tool back in July, no rush at all.
As Tommy mentions, this twit refers to Police as 'pigs' and Muslim  people as 'rag heads' online.

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## Steve123

> Carlsen, I knew he was a tool back in July, no rush at all.
> As Tommy mentions, this twit refers to Police as 'pigs' and Muslim  people as 'rag heads' online.


Is that the strange 'MuRiCaN from Florida? 

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

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## Tankd

> As soon as a guy starts calling police 'pigs', we have a winner.


   Actually the term "Pigs " is not a derogatory word when discribing the Police . It has a English reference ( to their beginings ,Bow Street Runners ) and the American term as in Pride . Integrity . Guts .
    And as the Devils advocate you have to ask yourself if it is O.K to go tooled up when there might be weapons on site . What would they do differently when they know their are weapons on site . Tear gas and Flash bangs all round no doubt , and all you did was to forget to pay the Gas bill .

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## Russian 22.

> Just reading above, why should you not mention hunting when talking to the officer? If its legal to go hunting with an MSSA then how could they decline to give you an endorsement if you say that's what your going to do?


I am guessing that they can then say that you could use an ar15 a category instead or a bolt action. Whereas the 3 gun requires a big mag capacity. 

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

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## stretch

> I am guessing that they can then say that you could use an ar15 a category instead or a bolt action. Whereas the 3 gun requires a big mag capacity. 
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk


I just had this same debate with another shooter online the other day. Remember that magazine capacity is only one of several MSSA features. Why shouldnt we have folding/telescopic stocks, pistol grips, flash suppressors or bayonet lugs on a semi auto used for hunting? The reason these features are used to classify MSSAs is because theyre fairly common features of the examples of firearms they wanted restricted post Aramoana. Nothing dangerous about them.

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## Russian 22.

> I just had this same debate with another shooter online the other day. Remember that magazine capacity is only one of several MSSA features. Why shouldnt we have folding/telescopic stocks, pistol grips, flash suppressors or bayonet lugs on a semi auto used for hunting? The reason these features are used to classify MSSAs is because theyre fairly common features of the examples of firearms they wanted restricted post Aramoana. Nothing dangerous about them.


Well unless you were using the bayonet to stick a pig then most of those features aren't too useful for hunting I think.

The restrictions were just reactionary behaviour from police failings. I agree with you that there isn't anything dangerous abbot an e cat.

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## 308

A large mag capacity is rather handy when you come across a mob of goats

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