# Hunting > Hunting >  Has 1080 by kill struck again

## nelpop

Todays DOC release claims that there is inconclusive proof a recent 1080 drop in the Kahurangi National Park has killed 25 rare rock wren.
It makes you wonder is this going to be another cover up?
Mick Smith is already saying that the use of preventative additives mixed in with the baits is designed to stop the bi-kill of non targeted species. We all know that really works.
New Zealand Firsts Richard Prosser is calling for a MORATORIUM ON THE USE OF 1080. 
Is it time for the parties involved to be prosecuted if the 1080 drop was responsible for the death of these rock wren.
I guess we will have to wait and see what the investigation shows up.

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## veitnamcam

I wouldn't hold your breath for any prosecutions of anyone other than protestors.

The news said it was unlikely to be the result of 1080 poisoning(the rock wren deaths) as they eat insects, The in depth journalising failed to uncover again that 1080 is an insecticide  :Wtfsmilie:

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## TJM

it doesn't matter what the opponents say as long as there is plenty of money to spend on poisoning our environment you wont stop the distribution of 1080.
At the end of the day regardless if the pests or predators are natural or introduced they will win and endangered species will disappear.Sad but its true. Its happened since life began, species that cant adapt will eventually perish. All the poison in the world wont help long term.

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## kiwijames

Cause these guys couldn't have done it.  :X X: 



Nor does anyone offer the full story how more Rock Wren were found in the other survey site. You guys (and girls) are a crack up.

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## Kaimai Views

> Cause these guys couldn't have done it. 
> 
> Nor does anyone offer the full story how more Rock Wren were found in the other survey site. You guys (and girls) are a crack up.


Good ol kiwijames, sticking up for your industry mates again....   :Yuush: 
I can smell the 1080 on your breath !!

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## nelpop

Insects eat 1080 bait +  Rock wren eats insect = DEAD ROCK WREN. Sorry i forgot with the use of additives on the baits these no bi kill. Unfortunate as it maybe TJM might be right.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

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Kevin Hackwell F/B made two points in his interview that was supposed to cast doubt upon 1080 being responsible for the sudden population crash of the rock wren. 
1/ Rock wren are insectivorous...(and so are the birds below Kevin, but 1080 is a powerful insecticide)
2/ That a 6 gram 1080 bait weighs nearly the same as a rock Wren....Somehow this was to imply that a rock wren needed to swallow the whole bait. (1080 exits the hopper as chips and crumbs and part baits. Anyway the bird only has to wait a few days and the bait is like wet wheatbix).
This would be the worst attempt at throwing up a smokescreen that we have witnessed yet. 

Nick Smith mentioned that bird repelent is now used. Well "Nick" if only you know what it is why don't you just tell the rest of us

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## Toby

You anti 1080 lot are pest too

Everywhere you look on the internet these days its pointless ban 1080 crap. But keep going im sure telling us will make a big difference

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## Happy

Wairoa Beach this am...     :Grin: 

You ll all be good...

  :Killzonesmiley:

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## Kiwi Greg

> Cause these guys couldn't have done it. 
> 
> 
> 
> Nor does anyone offer the full story how more Rock Wren were found in the other survey site. You guys (and girls) are a crack up.


Without doubt that footage is really sad  :Sad: 

Just a couple of observations from the video. 

They could have easy taken stoat traps up there with them, saving numerous endangered birds, but that would have had an impact on the results.

Another thought is did the camera gear, activity etc help the stoat/stoats find the nests ?

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## kiwijames

> Without doubt that footage is really sad 
> 
> Just a couple of observations from the video. 
> 
> They could have easy taken stoat traps up there with them, saving numerous endangered birds, but that would have had an impact on the results.
> 
> Another thought is did the camera gear, activity etc help the stoat/stoats find the nests ?


Good question. They have a Facebook page which may have a couple of answers. Not DoCs page obviously.

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## BRADS

These 1080 threads always go south fast, why don't we put them with politics and religion??

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## Graeme Sturgeon

Why?, Are they politics or religion???.

I think we are discussing a decision Department of Conservation made even though the evidence was..

The rock wren should not be subject to a 1080 drop until the available evidence is studied more deeply.

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## BRADS

> Why?, Are they politics or religion???.
> 
> I think we are discussing a decision Department of Conservation made even though the evidence was..
> 
> The rock wren should not be subject to a 1080 drop until the available evidence is studied more deeply.


I was just suggesting banning the topic, its just my opinion.
It seems that every second or third thread is about 1080, and a lot of people have very strong opinions on it.
Hence the reason it turns into a shit fight imo.
you've lead the charge on plenty :Thumbsup:

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## Gibo

> I was just suggesting banning the topic, its just my opinion.
> It seems that every second or third thread is about 1080, and a lot of people have very strong opinions on it.
> Hence the reason it turns into a shit fight imo.
> you've lead the charge on plenty


Here is some advice that was given to me. If you dont like it, dont read it  :Sad:  
I hate 1080  :Grin:

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## kiwijames

> Why?, Are they politics or religion???.





> _Todays DOC release claims that there is inconclusive proof a recent 1080 drop in the Kahurangi National Park has killed 25 rare rock wren.
> It makes you wonder is this going to be another cover up?
> Mick Smith is already saying that the use of preventative additives mixed in with the baits is designed to stop the bi-kill of non targeted species. We all know that really works.
> New Zealand Firsts Richard Prosser is calling for a MORATORIUM ON THE USE OF 1080. 
> Is it time for the parties involved to be prosecuted if the 1080 drop was responsible for the death of these rock wren.
> I guess we will have to wait and see what the investigation shows up._


Yep  :Yuush:

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## Dundee

What gets me is that DOC are saying snow may have killed them.,well the rock wren lives in an alpine region surely it has evolved to the alpine conditions.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

When on active service, particularly if my memory serves me correctly before a shitty operation soldiers are reminded of what they are fighting for. One of the principles in particular I am always mindful of is the one "Freedom of Speech". 

And yet when the evidence for poisoning looks shady no one wants to talk about it. Prior to a poisoning you cannot get DOC, AHB or Regional Councils to attend meetings or consult with anybody that 1080 is likely to effect. Their operating procedure now is to declare interested parties hostile and refuse to meet or discuss.

Hunters of all people must discuss and keep themselves informed of what is going on, even just to protect their hunting, themselves, their families, their dogs and other people who are not in the same knowledge loop as most of us are

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## nelpop

> What gets me is that DOC are saying snow may have killed them.,well the rock wren lives in an alpine region surely it has evolved to the alpine conditions.


YEP Dundee, Green snow from the sky.

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## TJM

Personally i'm all for control of so called pests, bearing in mind nearly everything and everyone is an introduced species of some sort !
i just cant get my head around the mass spread of any dangerous chemical on the country side of what once was supposed to be an unpolluted pristine country with a reputation for fresh clean streams, fresh produce and relatively unpolluted fresh air. Well we will have to wait for nearly 100 years before the over application of fertiliser leaches into the once clear lakes (Taupo is an example)and if the process of fencing off streams and planting their banks with plant life is taken seriously then maybe the effluent from our dairy farms will be reduced and your kids will be able to swim in the streams with out fear of ingesting some bacteria or bug that could potentially kill them? The bush has been changed possibly for good by our grandfathers ( clear felling native trees),  deforestation of the land for farming etc etc. The good old possum was introduced originally for the  fur trade and at the time i wouldn't mind betting some one got a pat on the back for the potential income that this would have generated at the time? 
I just know that when i have hunted in forest that has been previously been subjected to intensive poisoning from aerial drops there is nothing around, no bird life no deer, pigs and may be the possums are reduced for a few months too. As a hunter i am amazed that some of us can still support poisoning on this scale. But hey this is a free country we are all entitled to an opinion !!

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## Dundee

Don't give me shit about dairy farmers! WE PUT UP WITH A LOT OF SHIT!!  those sheep and beef farmers graze the rivers with their stock

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## rambler

apparently 2 tagged key found dead too. Now the rat numbers have boosted up already,  doc and their dirty 1080 are looking worse n worse. big time fail nz

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> apparently 2 tagged key found dead too. Now the rat numbers have boosted up already,  doc and their dirty 1080 are looking worse n worse. big time fail nz


3 dead kea last report. More to be found yet I guess. The average kea deaths in previous 1080 drops is around 25%.

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## BRADS

> Don't worry mate, you're all bloody farmers to me.  I was putting forward the opinion the other day that farming should be lumped in with mining, they use diggers, dumpers, dozers and explosives farmers use animals...  I bet bloody greenies never considered that I should shut up!


Some of us framers look at ourselves as caretakers of the land, and hope to hand it on to the next generation better than we got it, how you can compare that with mining I'm not sure? 
I do know that we sure have given a lot of land to Queen Elizabeth Trust, that we have fenced, and planted at our own cost, fenced waterways etc etc 
Yes some farming practices do rape the land ''Dairy" :ORLY:  but don't lump us all in together :Thumbsup: 
I will add  that even the dairy boys have really upped there game in the last few years, and like poachers its just a bad few giving the rest a bad name.
I do no that when I give this game away I can say Ive done my bit to make that land 'better'

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## steven

> Todays DOC release claims that there is inconclusive proof a recent 1080 drop in the Kahurangi National Park has killed 25 rare rock wren.
> It makes you wonder is this going to be another cover up?
> Mick Smith is already saying that the use of preventative additives mixed in with the baits is designed to stop the bi-kill of non targeted species. We all know that really works.
> New Zealand Firsts Richard Prosser is calling for a MORATORIUM ON THE USE OF 1080. 
> Is it time for the parties involved to be prosecuted if the 1080 drop was responsible for the death of these rock wren.
> I guess we will have to wait and see what the investigation shows up.


and if you dont drop it a hell of a lot more native species will die.

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## steven

> apparently 2 tagged key found dead too. Now the rat numbers have boosted up already,  doc and their dirty 1080 are looking worse n worse. big time fail nz


Lets try and be scientific and not emotive on it shall we.

BTW,

"The "Battle For Our Birds" programme, which began in July, was in response to an unusually large beech flowering season which led to a proliferation of pests such as rats and stoats."

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## gadgetman

> Lets try and be scientific and not emotive on it shall we.
> 
> BTW,
> 
> "The "Battle For Our Birds" programme, which began in July, was in response to an unusually large beech flowering season which led to a proliferation of pests such as rats and stoats."


The science of the non target / secondary poisoning is pretty clear, along with statements from the manufacturer that 1080 is being used here in a manner for which it was not intended. It was only meant to be used in bait stations.

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## Maca49

> Personally i'm all for control of so called pests, bearing in mind nearly everything and everyone is an introduced species of some sort !
> i just cant get my head around the mass spread of any dangerous chemical on the country side of what once was supposed to be an unpolluted pristine country with a reputation for fresh clean streams, fresh produce and relatively unpolluted fresh air. Well we will have to wait for nearly 100 years before the over application of fertiliser leaches into the once clear lakes (Taupo is an example)and if the process of fencing off streams and planting their banks with plant life is taken seriously then maybe the effluent from our dairy farms will be reduced and your kids will be able to swim in the streams with out fear of ingesting some bacteria or bug that could potentially kill them? The bush has been changed possibly for good by our grandfathers ( clear felling native trees),  deforestation of the land for farming etc etc. The good old possum was introduced originally for the  fur trade and at the time i wouldn't mind betting some one got a pat on the back for the potential income that this would have generated at the time? 
> I just know that when i have hunted in forest that has been previously been subjected to intensive poisoning from aerial drops there is nothing around, no bird life no deer, pigs and may be the possums are reduced for a few months too. As a hunter i am amazed that some of us can still support poisoning on this scale. But hey this is a free country we are all entitled to an opinion !!


Forget all the crap! TJM is 100% correct WE SHOULDNT BE DROPPING POISON ON OUR COUNTRY FOR ANY REASON WHAT SO FCUKEN EVER!!
Its just bloody WRONG!!!!! :Omg:  :XD:

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## nelpop

Here Here :Thumbsup:

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## Woody

Hackwell, Forest & Bird, 3 News, Monday 19 Jan 2015:
They are insectivorous birds....so they are not going to be interested in eating a 1080 bait

the following quotes are from  Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand &ndash; Te Ara

Rock wrens eat a variety of invertebrates, including beetles, spiders, flies, caterpillars and caddisflies. They also eat berries and grass seeds. 

The rifleman and the alpine rock wren are the only remaining species of the ancient New Zealand wren family. Five other species  four of them flightless  were made extinct by introduced predators. Feral cats had wiped out the last Stephens Island wren by 1894. The most recent loss was the bush wren. Once widespread, its gradual disappearance went almost unnoticed. It was last seen around 1972.
Robins and tomtits have large heads, short necks, round bodies and an upright stance. They have short bristles around the bill. Robins have long legs, and are larger than tomtits. All are insectivorous. The oldest known bird lived 16 years, but their life expectancy is three years.

1080 poison is forst and foremost AN INSECTICIDE. 
ROCK WREN EVOLVED IN SNOW,  SURVIVE AND  :Wtfsmilie:  LIVE UNDER SNOW ALL WINTER AT HIGH ALTITUDE SO IT IS EXTREMELY UNLIKELY THAT A SNOWFALL WOULD KILL THEM--IMHO. They are known to be predated on by stoats. Stoats are carnivores and do not directly take 1080 baits. Any stoat deaths up there after a 1080 drop are more likely to be caused by the stoats eating poisoned rock wrens that have eaten crumbed baits or poisoned insects than by directly eating any baits.  :Wtfsmilie:

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## Dundee



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## doinit

Being involved with the mixing and the distribution of 1080 poison, then seeing what this poison actually does to animal, fish, bird and insect life is a heart stopper.
DOC brass already know this. Their findings are made to suit the ears of those who have come to believe what they are doing is for the greater cause { brain wash}
One of their greatest tools is the word BY- KILL. The word repellent is also added, that softens the blow a little also for the believers.
These users of 1080 are F***ing  with nature big time and they are well aware of this, that in itself is a huge mistake. {worry}
What you read is what they want you to believe, that alone is where the pro group was founded. First hand experience with this deadly poison and knowing damn well what it is capable of will soon put one into the anti group, there are many but not  all have had first hand experience.
Their TV spin docos are their way of recruiting the pro groups, they run the media. Average Joe  in the city has no real interest only a minority do.
One day { with a lot of luck} these criminal types will be exposed and you can be sure that not one of them will be held accountable for the destruction they have caused.
1080 = $'s   and total destruction at the same time.
What is the real reason behind all this continuation of deadly poison?

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## Dundee

Copied and pasted so don't shoot the messenger. :Yuush: 

"1080 was first patented as an insecticide. It even can kill aphids on a plant that takes it up through the soil and kills fleas on an animal sublethally poisoned. It is pure fantasy to imagine that the rock wren did not die from 1080 poisoning. Notman (1989) found insectivores are killed when they feed on insects, and on baits that are laid for possums and rodents. Cockroaches become slow and do not exhibit usual evasion of prey animals. Weta become hyperactive and both can take days even weeks before it kills them - if a bird or other animal doesn't eat it first. World Health Organisation noted 1080 as highly toxic to bees. It is not just a mammalian poison - it affects anything that uses oxygen - including fish. Both vertebrates and invertebrates, but at different rates because it is a metabolic poison. Clinical dose is hard to pin down. No antidote has ever been discovered. It is only broken down by microbial action usually of the soil but it kills the organisms that break it down. 1080 has not been studied properly here and the insect study that DoC arranged to replace the Mike Meads study that had 6 peer reviews and showed a problem for invertebrates (including insects) was not well done and not peer reviewed, but said what they wanted it say. That is a dangerous game and other countries do recognise NZ's misconceptions about 1080 including the water misconception. We are only hurting ourselves by carrying on with this charade for the benefit of a few business men hiding behind the state's skirts and falsifying facts. "

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## kiwi39

You can rant on about how safe this shit is until you're blue in the face, but to me the idea of spreading any poison across the countryside is reckless ...

Remember all the rest of the stuff that science said was ok ? 

Smoking ? Antiseptic ... Stops lung infections
Thalidomide ?
T45t awesome stuff. 
Agent orange ... Hey its ONLY a defoliant ...

Ring any bells ? 

For fucks sake

Tim

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## Kiwi Greg

> You can rant on about how safe this shit is until you're blue in the face, but to me the idea of spreading any poison across the countryside is reckless ...
> 
> Remember all the rest of the stuff that science said was ok ? 
> 
> Smoking ? Antiseptic ... Stops lung infections
> Thalidomide ?
> T45t awesome stuff. 
> Agent orange ... Hey its ONLY a defoliant ...
> 
> ...


Add to that 

DDT..... was used extensively.... Nek Minit...

Asbestos,  just report asbestos in a building or on a roof & see how you go with that...

Mercury, older guys might remember the dental nurse giving it to you to play with......

Spreading a deadly poison indiscriminately from the sky over thousands of hectares can never be a good thing no matter what it is supposed to be saving/helping.

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## moonhunt

Weed killer closes dams: Herbicide found in Auckland's water-supply lakes - National - NZ Herald News

Oh no bloody weed killer got into a couple of dams

Controversial Auckland 1080 drop decision today - National - NZ Herald News

Hey but we can drop 1080 without putting any injurious substance into the water supply

65% of Aucklands water supply from these dams

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## Woody

Recently there has been investigations into the long term dumping of nuclear waste into various seas around Europe. People in fishing oriented villages are dying of leukaemia but the mantra of the governments and military "scientists" and "vested interest experts" up till now continues to be "Dilution solves pollution" !

Unfortunately for us, this is exactly what we keep hearing from DoC,  ROYAL Forest  & Bird and the AHB /  TB Free NZ, NZ government and vested interests using the sodium monofluoracetate over NZ waterways and catchments via the pathetic media.

Personally, I continue to disbelieve their bland assurances.

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## veitnamcam

We were told we were at peak oil production years ago and to expect oil prices to rise and rise and rise...... yet diesel is 2/3 the price it was a few months ago?

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## moonhunt

Watch this space, 90% finished my perpetual motion machine

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## Dundee

These are Pete Lusk words below.   Well done Pete.

Today I decided to hand back an award I got from Forest & Bird. Its over their full-on support for 1080. I got this Old Blue Award 15 yrs ago for being a good conservationist but now I cant keep it. The reason: F&B is the main prop for TbFree and DOC's 1080 drops. The trigger for me to finally decide was DOC poisoning rock wren habitat in Kahurangi National Park with F&B's support. The population of rock wren is so tiny, probably less than 100 birds spread over 4 or 5 widely separated colonies. Now DOC is reporting that about half the monitored birds have disappeared. They're blaming a unseasonal snow, a very weak excuse. Anyway, the Westport News interviewed me this morning on my decision and mustve rung F&B for a comment. About 2pm I had a phone call from one of their chiefs, ecologist Kevin Hackwell. He tried to convince me for half an hour to change my mind. But I wont and Ill return my Old Blue when I go to Wellington tomorrow.

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## BRADS

This same guy cried when doc cut down a tree to make a hut safe....... 
Think he's a rambling fuckwit IMO 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Dundee

:Grin:

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## kiwi39

> Watch this space, 90% finished my perpetual motion machine


If it aint 100%, it aint perpetual motion  :Wink:

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## veitnamcam

Where as the 1080 supporters pile gets smaller by the day  :Thumbsup: 

you can fool some of the people some of the time but you cant fool all of the people all of the time.

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## Tommy

> Oil is cheap. Cheap because there was an oversupply. The over supply came, when the number of people who could pay for it fell. 
> 
> The oversupply has dropped the crude oil price to a point where a large portion of production is sub economic.
> 
> That cheap diesel has raised demand (I bought more) while the low crude price has wiped out a portion of production. 
> 
> This will spike the price, and even less people will be able to pay. 
> 
> Repeat cycle. Welcome to peak oil.


Nah. Russia has been misbehaving in the Ukraine and elsewhere, their books balance with oil at $100/ barrel plus. This is how the West keeps the bear in line.

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## Toby

I wouldnt call it 1080 supporters as such. Sure there may be better ways to go about it but do you really think hearing about banning 1080 on the internet is fixing anything? 

You give me some hard evidence and facts of another method for ridding our forest of pest I'll sign whatever needs signing and help push it (tell friends and stuff) but saying ban 1080 every 2 seconds on here/facebook is useless and annoying and you just look dumb. 

Heres a strange idea, spend those 5mins it takes you to write your ban 1080 post each day into thinking of new ideas, if you all done that together in a large room (this forum) you may actually come up with a decent way to have 1080 stopped and replaced with a safer method that everyone can live with.

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## nelpop

Thats easy. use the millions spent on 1080 to pay for a bounty on possum, stoats and wessals.

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## veitnamcam

> I wouldnt call it 1080 supporters as such. Sure there may be better ways to go about it but do you really think hearing about banning 1080 on the internet is fixing anything? 
> 
> You give me some hard evidence and facts of another method for ridding our forest of pest I'll sign whatever needs signing and help push it (tell friends and stuff) but saying ban 1080 every 2 seconds on here/facebook is useless and annoying and you just look dumb. 
> 
> *Heres a strange idea, spend those 5mins it takes you to write your ban 1080 post each day into thinking of new ideas, if you all done that together in a large room (this forum) you may actually come up with a decent way to have 1080 stopped and replaced with a safer method that everyone can live with.*


*

*
It has already been done many times if you care to look Toby

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## Toby

No I dont care. But seeing as you have all the ideas make them more public? Start bringing the threads up? Start letting these shit threads that are good for nothing die off and start making all these ideas known to everyone? 

I don't care much for looking for these threads but I'd much rather see a thread with some good ideas be posted each bloody week over this dribble

I look forward to your next post that gets you guys no where except getting me dislike your 1080 crap even more... Almost like you're trying to make it harder for people like me to support you guys.

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## BRADS

Great posts there Toby and Tussock.
Hell I'm as anti 1080 as the next guy, when I was at school I gave my   Spare time and money to Martin Benstrum when he set up TANNZ.,
I just don't think crashing our sweet forum with these pointless 1080 threads helps anyone.

End of rant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## kiwijames

> I wouldnt call it 1080 supporters as such. Sure there may be better ways to go about it but do you really think hearing about banning 1080 on the internet is fixing anything? 
> 
> You give me some hard evidence and facts of another method for ridding our forest of pest I'll sign whatever needs signing and help push it (tell friends and stuff) but saying ban 1080 every 2 seconds on here/facebook is useless and annoying and you just look dumb. 
> 
> Heres a strange idea, spend those 5mins it takes you to write your ban 1080 post each day into thinking of new ideas, if you all done that together in a large room (this forum) you may actually come up with a decent way to have 1080 stopped and replaced with a safer method that everyone can live with.


There no telling some people @Toby. 
After being internationally surveyed as one of the least corrupt countries in the world there are still people who cannot imagine anything other than some Lee Child novel sculduggery with multi faceted government department plots and clandestine public money rorts to push 1080.
I too have yet to see a sensible alternative with proven large scale methodology to offer a real solution. Nationwide pest control on a budget is ugly for sure, but whats the options?

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## kiwijames

> Where as the 1080 supporters pile gets smaller by the day 
> 
> you can fool some of the people some of the time but you cant fool all of the people all of the time.



You can probably fool all the fools all the time though

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## veitnamcam

> You can probably fool all the fools all the time though


Remember those words James  :Wink:

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## veitnamcam

> Great posts there Toby and Tussock.
> Hell I'm as anti 1080 as the next guy, when I was at school I gave my   Spare time and money to Martin Benstrum when he set up TANNZ.,
> I just don't think crashing our sweet forum with these pointless 1080 threads helps anyone.
> 
> End of rant.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I don't think it should be all over the forum either.
Maybe a dedicated section tho?
After all it affects all of us weather you believe the propaganda or not.

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## Kiwi Greg

> No I dont care. But seeing as you have all the ideas make them more public? Start bringing the threads up? Start letting these shit threads that are good for nothing die off and start making all these ideas known to everyone? 
> 
> I don't care much for looking for these threads but I'd much rather see a thread with some good ideas be posted each bloody week over this dribble
> 
> I look forward to your next post that gets you guys no where except getting me dislike your 1080 crap even more... Almost like you're trying to make it harder for people like me to support you guys.


Toby, have you had all your favourite hunting areas 1080ed ?, if so my condolences & you might understand a little better why some people get a little bent out of shape about it all.

BTW I don't much like all the pro/anti 1080 arguments, but I care for 1080 even less...

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## kiwijames

> I don't think it should be all over the forum either.
> Maybe a dedicated section tho?
> After all it affects all of us weather you believe the propaganda or not.


Here?

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## kiwijames

> Toby, have you had all your favourite hunting areas 1080ed ?, if so my condolences & you might understand a little better why some people get a little bent out of shape about it all.


Wow, theres an excellent argument against 1080. Fuck the birds, just don't kill my deersies?

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## TJM

it would be great if politics and religion weren't brought up here,, unfortunately the 1080 thing really is important for true hunters.We all accept that possums are a major problem in N.Z for farmers and the native forest ( whats left of it) but dropping expensive poisons year after year is it really the answer?? if it was so good why do we have to do it after so many years ?

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## veitnamcam

> Here?


Its not really politics tho is it?

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## Dundee

I'm sure you all can read the title of this thread if 1080 doesn't worry your interest of our wildlife and protected species in NZ why bother reading the thread in the first place?

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## veitnamcam

> Wow, theres an excellent argument against 1080. Fuck the birds, just don't kill my deersies?


My issue with the poison is with the birds.
One of my favourite areas had the green rain twice in 3? years and hasn't had it in 3-6 (excuse me for not keeping fastidious records of such things)

Deer have recovered,pigs I think were never affected to any degree as with goats. 
Deer have recovered by being fed by adjacent land that was unable to be aerial  1080d.

Bird song/life is still pretty much non existent.

James you are clearly pro and I respect that and I know you get out and about.

My question for you is " have you ever been in never aerial 1080d bush and regularly 1080d bush?"

Because I have and to me the difference is that obvious I cannot understand how any outdoorsman(note I did not use the word hunter,I am getting greener by the year) could possibly support the decimation of our native birds.

It is not saving them(the birds) it is hastening their demise  :Sick:

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## mikee

Interestingly enough we recently walked from Torrent bay to Bark bay and the missus remarked how quiet the bush was. 
There was sweet FA bird talkies of any description
Able Tasman NP was bombed in 2014
Like VC I don't really care about the deersies they will recover they are survivors but the birds might be not so clever.

However while DOC have $$ for Poison and Choppers they wont be getting any extra $$ from me for anything, they get quite enough from my taxes now

I have no issue with using poisons, 1080 or otherwise just the method of application and the bykill.
However some people are making a fortune out of involvement so nothing will change its not about possums its about money

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## kiwijames

> My issue with the poison is with the birds.
> One of my favourite areas had the green rain twice in 3? years and hasn't had it in 3-6 (excuse me for not keeping fastidious records of such things)
> 
> Deer have recovered,pigs I think were never affected to any degree as with goats. 
> Deer have recovered by being fed by adjacent land that was unable to be aerial  1080d.
> 
> Bird song/life is still pretty much non existent.
> 
> James you are clearly pro and I respect that and I know you get out and about.
> ...


Thanks Cam, I appreciate that. 
Yes I've been in both situations. I have not noticed enough of a difference to draw any conclusion from. You guys down South do have a few more species than us though. Wren, Kea etc. But, mind you, after the last weekend the irony is that while camping with my family we went to sleep with probably a dozen morepork singing and were woken by Tui and Bellbird. Thats woken, not woke to! All under 3 EPro signs for 3 different poisons (1080) included. 
You also want to know something funny? Im not pro 1080. Neve have been. Not anti either. Many assume Im pro because I have an opinion. I'll take fact every day over emotion and heresy. 
My main beef is twofold (actually threefold). 
Preaching to the choir. Really, the forum is completely the wrong vehicle to have these discussions. 
Every thread has eventually been locked by a mod that has a 1080 theme. They all have gone down the toilet. They are not constructive. There are other forums, with plenty of opportunity to air your concerns. 
As of yet, none of these 1080 threads have enough fact to qualify anything. From both sides. I just can't connect the dots many see as obvious, and then theres the conspiracy theory guys (and girls) who make anyone with half a brain switch off instantly. You've a better chance selling me a 10 year subscription to join Destiny Church. At least they're consistent.

Heres a scary thought. Check out Forest and Bird. If you want to see how its done with slick PR check out the FB page. Rope in a heap of city folk who like the idea but have hardly been in the bush let alone off a track. Just like the lemmings who part with money every year for a Greenpeace bumper sticker or even worse Sea Shepard :Sick: . Actually the Twig and Tweeters really do quite a bit of sensible stuff outside of the Gareth Morganesque drivel.

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## gimp

> If only we could find a way to harness the energy of 10/80 complainers. That seems to be fairly limitless.


lolllll

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## gimp

> Thanks Cam, I appreciate that. 
> Yes I've been in both situations. I have not noticed enough of a difference to draw any conclusion from. You guys down South do have a few more species than us though. Wren, Kea etc. But, mind you, after the last weekend the irony is that while camping with my family we went to sleep with probably a dozen morepork singing and were woken by Tui and Bellbird. Thats woken, not woke to! All under 3 EPro signs for 3 different poisons (1080) included. 
> You also want to know something funny? Im not pro 1080. Neve have been. Not anti either. Many assume Im pro because I have an opinion. I'll take fact every day over emotion and heresy. 
> My main beef is twofold (actually threefold). 
> Preaching to the choir. Really, the forum is completely the wrong vehicle to have these discussions. 
> Every thread has eventually been locked by a mod that has a 1080 theme. They all have gone down the toilet. They are not constructive. There are other forums, with plenty of opportunity to air your concerns. 
> As of yet, none of these 1080 threads have enough fact to qualify anything. From both sides. I just can't connect the dots many see as obvious, and then theres the conspiracy theory guys (and girls) who make anyone with half a brain switch off instantly. You've a better chance selling me a 10 year subscription to join Destiny Church. At least they're consistent.
> 
> Heres a scary thought. Check out Forest and Bird. If you want to see how its done with slick PR check out the FB page. Rope in a heap of city folk who like the idea but have hardly been in the bush let alone off a track. Just like the lemmings who part with money every year for a Greenpeace bumper sticker or even worse Sea Shepard. Actually the Twig and Tweeters really do quite a bit of sensible stuff outside of the Gareth Morganesque drivel.


yeeeeppppp

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## gimp

> DOC release....
> It makes you wonder is this going to be another cover up?



well


they're doing a shit job then aren't they.

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## Kiwi Greg

> Wow, theres an excellent argument against 1080. Fuck the birds, just don't kill my deersies?


Actually you have that around the wrong way, I care more for the birds than the deer, I haven't shot a deer in way too long.

Deer recover fast, the birds etc don't....






Same area I wonder if they are still there ?

BTW it has heaps of trap lines all through the area, has had 14 years.

"Our trapping programme covers over 8,000 hectares. We have 22 trapping lines with 1125 trap stations placed every 100 metres (a total of 112 kilometres of trapping lines)"

Same area.

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## gimp

> Same area I wonder if they are still there ?
> 
> BTW it has heaps of trap lines all through the area, has had 14 years.
> 
> "Our trapping programme covers over 8,000 hectares. We have 22 trapping lines with 1125 trap stations placed every 100 metres (a total of 112 kilometres of trapping lines)"
> 
> Same area.


Weka populations are increasing iirc. Yes weka and 1080 exist? that's what your video shows. Studies have shown that weka aren't really featured in bykill

Snails are eaten by rats etc and a photo shell next to a 1080 pellet is a fun implication but meaningless. I see about a billion snail shells in the bush. Shall I take a photo of one next to a native bird and suggest we ban native birds?

What's the area? there might be bird count data to refer to

e: If someone felt the need to drop 1080 with all those traps around either the monitoring showed that the traps weren't doing the job (bad news for the "use trapping for control" theory) or hey maybe the trapping and 1080 have different target species...

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## Graeme Sturgeon

1080 is INHUMANE
       Who Gave DOC, AHB, and Regional Councils the right to torture animals in my name.

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## Toby

That's a great argument! Well done must have taken a while to think that one up....

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> That's a great argument! Well done must have taken a while to think that one up....


Actually it was the RSPCA that came up with the finding. They will prosecute, and  the paperwork is available for inspection.

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## Toby

When do the hunters get banned for wounding animals?

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> When do the hunters get banned for wounding animals?


There isn't a correlation here unless you fail to take steps to end the animals suffering.

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## Dundee

Why haven't the RSPCA fought for a prosecution? They do anything to get the average Joe Bloggs.

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## GravelBen

The average Joe Bloggs is a much easier target!

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> Why haven't the RSPCA fought for a prosecution? They do anything to get the average Joe Bloggs.


I guess you have to be careful taking on for example Department Of Conservation. Just using say Cave Creek as an example.

We all know a shoddy platform held together with skew nails was built and hung over a 40m drop. Consequently the structure failed and killed 14 and injured another 3.

This DOC structure was not designed by an engineer.

A Building Consent was never obtained.

It was found that a building consent was not even lodged.

And yet nobody was found to blame for this.
Joe Bloggs would have been hung out to dry no doubt about that, if he had have built the Cave Creek Platform. So I guess the inference here is Joe Bloggs is a slow moving target that attracts the bullet and Teflon D.O.C just slithers away as untouchable as ever.

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## Woody

It's all gotten too much for McCrook; the greatest poisoner in NZ. He's chucked it in and done a runner. Perhaps the Feds have finally woken up to how much they've been scammed and how ineffective their millions of dollars of levies have really been; and kicked up a stink at last. Most of the justification for spending on 1080 has been via the bTB mantra, but we all know dammed well that most of the problem has come from and is still coming from the back of the trucks and perpetuated by piss poor testing regimes. 

The report commissioned by NZ Treasury which was authored by the NZ Institute of Economic research as far back as 2000 made clear that the program justification was doubtful. The report is titled "Coughing Up For TB" so if you Google it you can read the truth for yourselves; then sit down and wonder why the thing was allowed to continue a further 15 years , and on--

Oh never mind, we can pick on Rock Wrens and waterways instead---

It's about time John Key got hold of Nathan Guy and Smith and banged their heads together. Maggie wouldn't know squat and should be sent back to her garden show. 
Alternatives to using 1080 have always existed. It is the misappropriation, misdirection and misuse of public funds that has prevented the expansion to realise the potential of the trapping industry and the several by product utilisation industries that devolve from that which could see the job done without the deleterious side effects and with productive job creation and social benefits.

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## screamO

I wasn't going to comment on all the 1080 stuff, I don't know enough about it all. 
I do think its a good topic and enjoy reading everyone's point of view regardless of there view and find it a very relevant topic for a lot of New Zealanders.
One think I do know thou......I've been hunting in a 1080ed area and there were still deer there but no bird sound or anything just a silence, like a silence of death.
I also don't think spreading poison all over the country side is quite the right answer, it reminds me of having cancer (the pest) and treating it with chemo (1080), sure it does it's job ( if your lucky) but fuckin near kills you in the process and long term we will wait and see but she's no joy ride.

I'm sure it will all come out in the next 20 years like most things.

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## Woody

Well, here's a thought for y'all to ponder.

IMO.

The spread / application rate that the AHB / TB Free NZ and DoC  commonly use places a lethal bait about every ten paces square.  (1 bait is enough to kill 3 possums or about 20 dogs and a very large number of insectivorous birds)  

No way is there a "pest" every ten paces in our forests, and certainly not in any of our waterways or drinking water supplies.

The intensity and complete coverage of our lands with this type of lethal poison in relation to the actual land occupied by, the number and the spread of so-called "pest" animals beggars rational and reasonable assumptions as to the intended "well-being outcomes" to our lands. Overkill potential is obscenely high. Protected (like kea)and desirable non protected species (like children, birds and dogs) are vulnerable because the poison AND the application method are not exclusively target specific.

You must ask yourselves this very serious question;-In light of the mass broadcasting of deadly poison in a non target specific way;-What and where is the actual main target of the poisoning; is it the so-called "pests" or is it your country, your water and YOUR environment?

The truth and the reality IS that the poison is by it's very concentration and spread, affecting ALL, not just a few within the environment and is a staggeringly irresponsible and criminal affront to man and nature.

There is no insuperable obstacle standing in the way of trapping-- except irrationality within government and the selfish creation and sustaining of inappropriate misdirected and inefficient bureaucracies.

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## ebf

Pest control in an "open" system is in-exact science before you even start.

To understand what can be achieved native ecosystem restoration and especially bird numbers, a much better example to look at would be any of the fenced sanctuaries (Zealandia, Orokonui, Maungatuatari) or many of the off-shore conservation islands.

Just before he passed away, Sir Paul Calaghan delivered a very interesting lecture on using the fenced sanctuary concept to create a chain of ecosystem reservoirs, surrounded by buffer zones. You'd still need to use something like sodium fluoroacetate for the initial pest eradication, and depending on monitoring use that or another poison for annual pest control, but most likely at significantly reduced levels.

I do not see dumping tons of poison into the environment as viable long term solution.

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## Woody

Maungatautiri is a failure and a massive and very unpopular burden on Waikato Regional ratepayers who have been forced unwillingly to bail it out several times now.

Zealandia is also a failure and famous for it's poisoning of trout by use of Rotenone  placed into the streams. Incidentally some of the green extremists want to see Rotenone (derris dust0 used in waterways emanating from national parks in order to eradicate those pesty trout.

I cannot comment on Orokonui an=s I don't know it.

Shakespeare park in Auckland is another example, but rats are reinfesting by swimming around the fence. Ulva island is another example of a place where trapping was successful but not maintained so a great excuse for DoC to pour brodifacoum onto the place. IMO to create a precedent leading to intended complete poisoning of Stewart island. Rats are still swimming to Ulva island.

Sanctuaries are a reasonable step off starting block but trapping and or target specific well maintained bait /trap stations can be effective for possums, mustelids and rats, mice. This has been proven long term (18 years) in Northern Urewera.

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## ebf

Woody, those are some pretty harsh comments about the sanctuaries.

In what way do you think they are failures ? Financial, but then show me any conservation effort that is not a drain on the taxpayer...

Ecosystem restoration wise and species numbers wise, I would be interested to hear your argument if you think they are failures....

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## Woody

Certainly the debate will vary depending on the parameters being included /excluded / discussed. When I say failure I am speaking in very broad terms and fiscal balances are high on my personal list of priorities. Different sections of communities and ethnic groups will always have varying priorities.  The concept of sanctuary is good, and the concept of expanding a managed environment is good. However there is going to be a trade off between isolation by fencing, and management in practical terms in a  wider environment. The former is proving very expensive and far from meeting design expectations while the latter is being almost totally ignored in terms other than mass aerial poisoning.


Be good to sit down over a crock of beer and a cooking fire to have an amicable discussion about it all sometime  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Graeme Sturgeon

Maungatautiri...33 million dollars of wasted effort. Rats and stoats penetrated the enclosure 2 years ago finally forcing the removal of native species released since the massive brodifacoum drops over the years.

A small portion of this amount could have been used to station two permanent Trappers/Gamekeepers on the mountain.
This would have changed the pest/native balance for the good. The rest could have been used to set up the same in many other reserves all over NZ

Fencing a mountain like Maungatautiri is ineffectual as nature is all too powerful. Floods, landslides, washouts, falling trees take their toll on the fence and as we know nature abhors a vacuum. All that stands between the remnants of the original well poisoned native bird population and a few imports is a few strands of rusting Chinese netting.

Interesting it is that two airdrops went astray and fell among sheep and cattle requiring herds and flocks to be destroyed and the farmers to be compensated.

 The odd morepork has been seen on the Mountain recently after their numbers were greatly reduced by aerial dropped poisons. 
Such was the excitement of the birds return that a camera was set up to record the nesting event. Guess what the camera recorded??? a morepork flying into the enclosure with a live rat which it let go for its chicks to catch. The camera also recorded the fact that the rat escaped the attention of the morepork chicks and is now looking for a mate. Nature is a powerful adversary far too powerful for the schemes and machinations of a bunch shiny arsed desk bandits ego tripping on the publics purse.

Evidence is out that the material used in the construction of the enclosure was shoddy and is rusting out, making more penetrations from pests possible and there is a strong possibility that the fence will have to be replaced. Oh dear more ratepayer expense for what is already proved itself a great white elephant. Even farmers have stopped access to the fence and its early warning system until such messy problems as IWI joint Governence issues under a recent Treaty Settlement are cleaned up.

In the Conservation Field as a soakhole for money it has no equal in NZ. When I last went there entry was free but the mountain was still suffering the silence of a well poisoned forest. Now you have to pay, for what, I don't know.

----------


## Graeme Sturgeon



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## Woody

About bloody time! Many of us have been trying to get these bods to do something like this for several years now.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> About bloody time! Many of us have been trying to get these bods to do something like this for several years now.


They have tried for many years but trappers never had a level playing field. The Govt Departments never wanted them in their Forests and so tilted the ground in favour of the use of 1080/brodifacoum at every opportunity.

The Govt killed off the wild venison exports for the same reason.

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## ebf

Graeme, fenced sanctuaries are not caged zoos, they need to be open at the top to allow birds to come and go... Sometimes a tree falls on the fence, sometimes a bird brings in a pest animal, all of those factors are part and parcel of managing and running a fenced sanctuary.

The one that I am involved with has an annual program of pest control (mainly mice) using bait stations. Also constant monitoring using tracking tunnels etc to ensure that any pests are identified as soon as possible.

From first hand experience, I can tell you that the most surprising thing for me has been the regeneration of the native forrest. Increases in bird numbers is something you'd expect. 600% plus increases in Tui numbers, Kaka numbers increasing rapidly and some of the birds banded here being captured as far as Mt Bruce.

Have not visited Maungatautari yet, scaling the fenced sanctuary concept is something that may or may not work. Orokonui is similar to Karori in size.

I think sanctuaries like these give us tremendous opportunities to compare different pest control methods against each other in a more controlled environment, and also to build on the practical knowledge of what is required for more focused conservation efforts in future. It is also a very good test bed for ironing out partnerships with volunteers and other stakeholders. At any point in time, there are around half a dozen masters and phd students doing research, including the trial of rotenone in running water mentioned earlier (also being used in the western cape in South Africa btw). One of the current projects is to see if robins have the ability to count  :Grin: 

Then add onto that the thousands of visitors who get to see very rare species such as takahe, saddleback, tuatara etc, I see quite a lot of positives where others see failures.... :Have A Nice Day:

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## Graeme Sturgeon

As a ratepayer I payed unwillingly for this..
In Maungatautari I saw a so called sanctuary that had used up so much of the available money that little was left for other more useful projects like the Te Urewera Mainland Island Project.

I saw a very expensive excluder fence that did not exclude pests. (note the mouse plague in the sanctuary this summer that makes a mockery of any science projects concerning biodiversity}

We wanted to see how well the liberated Kaka were making out. We were shown a single kaka in a small escape proof enclosure inside the sanctuary it seems the rest had taken one look at the place and shot through. Quite wisely we thought with the amount of poison used around the area.

The kiwi were grossly underweight when weighted at the end of the year. Not surprising again with the amount of pesticides used over the years.

And the silence of the place was almost painful to hear.  

If I want to hear a healthy native bird population  I can go to my own Queen Elizabeth Trust Block and the two Council Reserves I have on my own place. Stepping stone blocks out of the Northern Ureweras Mainland Island Project.

Just a cattle and goat fence around these. Pest control methods... Traps and hand laid feratox.

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## Dundee

Don't shoot the messenger :Wink:   BAN 1080   just been copied and posted

HAPPY 1st BIRTHDAY TO US !!!!
To all of you , Id like to thank you all for liking , posting , sharing , spreading the word , buying t-shirts hoodies and stickers and joining in the debates . It would be great to thank you all in person but with the 16800 odd people that would be hard ! 
On this day last year I was on PIG DOGS AND GEAR FOR SALE NZ and joined in the conversation on 1080 . I decided that there was somewhere needed to get this horrible poison and what it does exposed to public view and DOCs lies to come to an end. I think we have defiantly exposed their crap they spin. 
To 1080 EYEWITNESS ..... thank you for being another cog in the chain , and for your support and backing!
To 1080 DOES THE JOB YOU DONT .... Your a bloody joke !! Abusive , and cannot handle the truth . 
To the ADMIN , Jonty , Jason , Chrissy and Michelle .... you guys are friggn awesome and keep this site alive with your posts , facts n figgures , apparel , stickers , all the research you do , and support.
Thankyou again everyone keep up the great work spreading the word about this site , 1080 eyewitness and 1080 .
Cheers guys and girls , 
DUNCAN.
I would also like to take this opportunity to comment well. Jonty.
Thanks for taking the bull by the horns and kicking this off Duncan, you have certainly shown your 'go getter' skills in getting this and the T-shirts etc going. Thanks also for having faith in me and adding me to the admin despite Barry Baxter whinging in your ear that I would destroy this site. The one directive you gave me was too "stick to 1080 and not to digress to side topics". which was a bloody great directive as it keeps us on the straight and narrow and focused on one thing. 
It is important to think back a year when this site first formed. We were constantly bickering and basically being shouted down and abused by the poison pushers. It was their objective to do this too scare as many people off as possible, which was working to an extent. this site has given thousands a chance to sit back and read about what is really happening and ask questions without fear of being abused. In those days there was a main crew that commented on other sites but only about 20 or so full timers, it is great to see that the number has now swelled drastically. 
Looking through the demographics and country stat's a lot of people are hearing about 1080 over seas and clicking 'like' here and it is great to see that happening and the word is increasingly getting out. I am surprised by how many young people actually mention to in conversation their view on 1080 and they don't know that I am involved with this at all. The word is getting out there and we will eventually reach tipping point where we will have to be listened to. 
Also many thanks to my wife who lets me spend hours doing this. Michelle the latest admin who's words her posts way more eloquent than I do and can, you bring a whole new dimension to this site. Jason , Chrissy for sorting out the t-shirts, stickers and such, I'm sure it's not that easy. Barry Baxter and Dan Kane (pro 1080 supporters) also thanks you because without your constant dribble and abuse that pointed out to me how wrong 1080 is, I would have walked away years ago. The hard core crew that is on here most days, you are a great help fielding questions and supplying articles, cuttings, audio, video etc wicked guys, you know who you are... Pete Lusk, bloody hell mate, what you just did was not an light call to make but you stood up and made that call for what you believe in, WOW you blow me away with your actions. The Graff Boys, Dr Pollard, Mike Meads, the O'Keef's and all the others that are the pioneers of this movement, you guys are an inspiration to me and I am sure to quite a few others. An lastly everyone out there for hitting 'like', commenting, sharing and telling others a very special thanks. Sorry if I have forgotten someone this was off the cuff.
Sorry if we don't get a chance to reply to everyone but it is a big job getting through it and we have a life to try and keep together outside of this.
Bloody that got a bit long winded, thank you all again from the bottom of my heart.
Jonty

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## Graeme Sturgeon

Naughty little Ginja Minge doesn't want any nasty sprays and poisons around her block but she is happy enough dumping it all over everybody else's.

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## ebf

> Naughty little Ginja Minge doesn't want any nasty sprays and poisons around her block but she is happy enough dumping it all over everybody else's.


Graeme, the sentence you typed after the attachment is not just offensive, it is dumb and childish. No matter how solid you think your argument is, if that is the way you engage with people, you are not going to get anywhere.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> Graeme, the sentence you typed after the attachment is not just offensive, it is dumb and childish. No matter how solid you think your argument is, if that is the way you engage with people, you are not going to get anywhere.


Yes it is hard for me to resist the urge to be offensive. As I and many others that served in the same war zone have suffered and our children and our children's children are suffering now. Why because we believed our government when they said Agent Orange 
( Produced at Paratutu by Ivan Watkins Dow) would do us no harm.

So just bloody excuse me then for calling her Ginja Minge.

So what are you going to do about it, go out and spread more 1080???.

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## BRADS

> Yes it is hard for me to resist the urge to be offensive. As I and many others that served in the same war zone have suffered and our children and our children's children are suffering now. Why because we believed our government when they said Agent Orange 
> ( Produced at Paratutu by Ivan Watkins Dow) would do us no harm.
> 
> So just bloody excuse me then for calling her Ginja Minge.
> 
> So what are you going to do about it, go out and spread more 1080???.


Did you even read what ebf had posted mate?
Sorry but what is it with you anti 1080 people?
Sorry Graham but Ive lost all respect for you on how you handle these threads.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> Did you even read what ebf had posted mate?
> Sorry but what is it with you anti 1080 people?
> Sorry Graham but Ive lost all respect for you on how you handle these threads.


What is it with you pro 1080 people???. You complain that you hate reading these threads and yet even when the thread is clearly marked as a 1080 thread you are first too it like pigs to a trough.

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## BRADS

> What is it with you pro 1080 people???. You complain that you hate reading these threads and yet even when the thread is clearly marked as a 1080 thread you are first too it like pigs to a trough.


You obvisiouly haven't read this whole thread?
I'm anti 1080 just like you, just don't see the point in going on about.
Im just sick of reading the same shit a few copy and paste in every thread. 
You come across as a washed up has been that just wants to moan about the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Graeme Sturgeon

[QUOTE=BRADS;334640]You obvisiouly haven't read this whole thread?
I'm anti 1080 just like you, just don't see the point in going on about.
Im just sick of reading the same shit a few copy and paste in every thread. 
You come across as a washed up has been that just wants to moan about the same thing.

I do read every thread carefully and you will find I have a reasonable grip of the written word me old mate. 

Find someone that has contributed more to this Forum the dear old Scribe who was disabled before Christmas without excuse or reason given.

Is it in your own judgement that I am a washed up has been Brads???  

If you don't like the 1080 threads its been said before and I will say it again. Don't read them.

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## BRADS

Maybe Scribe was put down?
I can think of many members who have contributed more than Scribe ever did.
Why do you need to bombard our forum with your views? We all no about 1080, some of us just chose do something about it rather than moan.....
But yes your right I will stay away from your silly 1080 threads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## kiwijames

Ha ha ha. Cause no one ever saw this thread ending up here. Agent Orange, snails, 1080, and the trough plus poor ol scribble banging on. Who would have thought. Anti 1080, right or wrong I'll tell you one fact for sure. You do yourselves no favours alienating the easy people and will gain about as much traction as a F1 slick on a winters dairy farm race.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

[QUOTE=BRADS;334644]Maybe Scribe was put down?
I can think of many members who have contributed more than Scribe ever did.
Why do you need to bombard our forum with your views? We all no about 1080, some of us just chose do something about it rather than moan.....
But yes your right I will stay away from your silly 1080 threads. [QUOTE}

As your views are important to you Brads mine are as equally important to me.

You seem determined to have the last word man. I have been involved with pest control all my life and are still are involved in the same.

 But please answer the question anyway "Brads" as you questioned my own ability to read and understand a thread. "In your your own opinion am I a washed up has been that wants to moan about everything.

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## Happy

You two really need to meet then both will realise the other is actually a good bloke, I think you re both pretty straight up and hate 1080. Some are more passionate about it than others
 due to their life experiences but its a common fight surely at the end of the day.
TBH you d probably get on very well together...like most of us do . Its no good rubbishing each other on here about something you probably both agree is totally wrong for NZ.
Theres a bigger picture...
It ll lead only to banning.... I cant see any reason to disagree with anti 1080 people because at the end of the day they are right to hate the shite.. 
One person hates the way another deals with a corrupt disgusting practise " REALLY ???? "  :Wtfsmilie:   :Grin: 
Buggered if I know.. Some take every chance to point out political correctness or incorrectness and spend more energy doing so than fighting for the bigger picture...     :Sick:   :Sick:   :Sick: 

 :15 8 212:

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> You two really need to meet then both will realise the other is actually a good bloke, I think you re both pretty straight up and hate 1080. Some are more passionate about it than others
>  due to their life experiences but its a common fight surely at the end of the day.
> TBH you d probably get on very well together...like most of us do . Its no good rubbishing each other on here about something you probably both agree is totally wrong for NZ.
> Theres a bigger picture...
> It ll lead only to banning.... I cant see any reason to disagree with anti 1080 people because at the end of the day they are right to hate the shite.. 
> One person hates the way another deals with a corrupt disgusting practise " REALLY ???? "  
> Buggered if I know.. Some take every chance to point out political correctness or incorrectness and spend more energy doing so than fighting for the bigger picture...


I enjoyed your post "Happy" You may not have noticed but I have been careful not to rubbish or insult anyone. I wish it was a two way street.

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## kiwijames

> I enjoyed your post "Happy" You may not have noticed but I have been careful not to rubbish or insult anyone. I wish it was a two way street.


MInisters don't count in your world then? Poor old Maggie

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> MInisters don't count in your world then? Poor old Maggie


I am sure its the truth. Can the truth ever be an insult???.

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## ebf

Lets see, whenever someone starts coming out with "if you're not with us you are against us" type statements, that (to me at least) is a pretty clear indication of fundamentalist or extremist thinking... not much point trying to have a reasoned debate with those types.

and Graeme, do you have a wife/mother/sister/daughter ? imagine for a minute that she ends up in public service and makes it to a ministerial post. then some guy comes along, and because he does not like what her department has been doing for the last 30 years, even though she has just been appointed to the position, he starts using sexist and derogatory remarks when referring to her. as someone who has served in the military, and who is supposed to have a better idea of honour than most, does that strike you as honourable or decent behaviour ?

now you might think that what you see as the opposition is not acting in a decent way, and that's fair enough. but what you can control is your own behaviour, and you are letting yourself and your side down by what I have seen here...

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> Lets see, whenever someone starts coming out with "if you're not with us you are against us" type statements, that (to me at least) is a pretty clear indication of fundamentalist or extremist thinking... not much point trying to have a reasoned debate with those types.
> 
> and Graeme, do you have a wife/mother/sister/daughter ? imagine for a minute that she ends up in public service and makes it to a ministerial post. then some guy comes along, and because he does not like what her department has been doing for the last 30 years, even though she has just been appointed to the position, he starts using sexist and derogatory remarks when referring to her. as someone who has served in the military, and who is supposed to have a better idea of honour than most, does that strike you as honourable or decent behaviour ?
> 
> now you might think that what you see as the opposition is not acting in a decent way, and that's fair enough. but what you can control is your own behaviour, and you are letting yourself and your side down by what I have seen here...


Refer to remark above

----------


## kiwijames

> I am sure its the truth. Can the truth ever be an insult???.


Derogatory insults regarding someone's pigmentation. 
Wars have started over less.
Your starting to resemble Colonel Walter E Kurtz more by the day.

----------


## Graeme Sturgeon

You guys are getting your moneys worth out of a thread you say you cant stand.

Well Done.

----------


## kiwijames

> You guys are getting your moneys worth out of a thread you say you cant stand.
> 
> Well Done.


Sorry, who had to have the last word?

----------


## GravelBen

> Sorry, who had to have the last word?


You apparently. 

Or me now. 

Or whoever posts next...

----------


## screamO

Is it just me or has this thread just gone off topic :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## Happy

Dam we need some unlike buttons here !
Young against old ha ha. Political correctness ha ha  Colonel Kurtz ha ha 
Pigmentation ha ha  Wars have stared over less ha ha  
Funnier than funny thing 

After 5 time for beer me thinks

----------


## Gibo

Wont you all just fuck up

----------


## Gapped axe

For what it is worth, I think Graeme and Woody do a pretty good job, When guys who have history and experience like these guys, it's probably worth taking notice.

----------


## Dundee

> For what it is worth, I think Graeme and Woody do a pretty good job, When guys who have history and experience like these guys, it's probably worth taking notice.


It is being noticed 9 pages now.

----------


## Moutere

Let's be honest though, and just to add to it further it is 9 pages of mostly drivel and mud slinging.
Best bit so far was the story about the Morepork liberating the rat into the fenced sanctuary.
You can only laugh at the irony of that one.

----------


## Danny

Most have strong beliefs about 1080.  However, unless we have a big wig amongst us I doubt, in fact I know we are simply banging our heads against a brick wall. 

I don't believe a 1080 debate really deserves 9 pages of korero, especially when some of us are just warming up it seems.  But there are always far too many personal attacks in such threads. 
In the interest of unity these threads are rarely worth reading and contributing to. 
Unfortunately.

----------


## Woody

:Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Toby

How many are under the pile they can't see?

----------


## time out

I am fairly new to this forum but I spent a long time on another forum - some of it on 1080 issues that have been debated extensively by very knowledgeable people  
I retired a couple of years back and spent more time on forums and learned a bit about 1080 - I was horrified to learn about the cruelty of 1080 - information that I picked up from anti 1080 people such as Clyde Graff
I spent a long time learning everything I could about 1080 and was sure that I would be able to find something from a scientist somewhere in the world  to stop 1080 use in NZ - but alas - the only information that I have found that has been useful to me came from Charles Eason - from the Cawthron Institute - Cawthron Institute: People People - one of his papers that resolved the cruelty issues for me - An updated review of the toxicology and ecotoxicology of sodium fluoroacetate (1080) in relation to its use as a pest control tool in New Zealand - Sodium fluoroacetate (1080) is a vertebrate pesticide, originally developed in the 1940s and... - New 
This indicates that in the final stages of death - animals are likely to have suffered a seizure and are unlikely to experience pain 
Dont get me wrong - I hate 1080 for various reasons - but it may be one of the more effective tools we have to save some of our birds. I do however believe that DOC are ignoring the opportunities for many parts of our bush and high country that could be trapped - as suggested by Marty Foote
I cant understand why the pro 1080 people continually try to stifle debate about 1080 issues on hunting forums - there are a few on here (they are the same guys on the other forum) that try to swamp debate with their highly educated speak where they try to put good ordinary people down 
For goodness sake - free speech is one of our great principles - we can actually learn from open debate on any subject - semi political or otherwise 
Most of us are hunters or have been hunters in our lifetime - most of us love the environment and most animals that live in it and will do anything to resolve issues for our birds - many of us are actually out there killing predators and saving birds - at considerable time and cost to ourselves 
There have been some great ideas floated on the hunting forums - if 1080 issues offend some members then maybe this forum should have a Politics of Hunting section - if you dont like thinking about 1080 - just dont go there 
I dont know why Marty Henry got kicked out of here - maybe he was getting political - but he opened up some great debate on the other forum - the man has some great ideas for alternatives to 1080
Some will say that you will never add any value to the 1080 debate if you take an extreme position - such as Clive Graff or Marty Henry - and that the population in general just switch off - maybe - but the general population has been significantly influenced by the Government and DOC publicity machines where money was no object 
Only time will tell about 1080 maybe the saviour of our birds - maybe neutral - maybe another environmental disaster - just be patient and give it time - read all you can from Charles Eason and you will know most of what there is to know about 1080  :36 1 7:

----------


## gimp

> Wont you all just fuck up


I have a great button that I can use to that effect.

----------


## res

> I have a great button that I can use to that effect.


Divisive threads, regardless of the subject matter, are the death of forums.  
How to control that is not a easy path for any mod,as they always have there own opinion like everyone else on the subject at hand. 
Is a divisive thread,or subject,worth the death of the group? Regardless of where the controlling mods stand on the subject. 

I'm glad I'm not a mod 

I can stand and say I hate 1080,and also say I don't see any compleat solution. 
Right now if the funding was there,and it's not, I would increase trapping with the newish c02 traps and Arial poison the areas that can't for whatever reason can't be trapped. Over time those areas will be reduced. But I don't ever see them being eliminated. 

My background?
I worked for doc,worked with 1080 amongst other things and other projects. 
Left doc because of both $ and the bs, I don't think I could say what was larger in my mind at the time. 
But since then I have worked as a volunteering on pest control projects wherever I have lived. 

These threads seem to have a lot of black and white true believers, and the Gray gets drowned out. 

I see the value as minimal, when compared to the disruption it causes to the forum it's on.

----------


## Inger

I'd like to see greater use made of the CO2, resetting kill stations that have come on the market.  They use poison free baits and can kill 10-15 times before the mini gas canister needs to be replaced.  We've just bought one for stoats/rats, as we haven't had any luck catching stoats with anything else.

The possum version can screwed onto the trunk of a tree, out of the way of other animals.  The replacement baits and gas canisters don't cost much either.  Which is more than I can say about the replacement margarine-container-type poison block that fits in a bait station attached to a tree.  Those things are a ridiculous price now.  I don't see why the price has gone up?  It'll be too expensive to use in any great quantity.

If the gas powered captive bolt killing stations had larger gas cylinders, they'd be useful in bush situations.

----------


## res

> I
> If the gas powered captive bolt killing stations had larger gas cylinders


Myself and undoubtedly others have found them easy to adapt to use much larger paintball co2 tanks. 
This greatly increases the cost and heft of the units. While  I would like to see this offered as a factory option it has not noticeably increased our activations per man hour-maybe our program needs to evolve more to make better use of the larger tanks. 
Right now,I would prefer a co2 trap that somehow reported back as to its status.

----------


## Graeme Sturgeon

Trapping is the way to go but the playing field is tilted badly against trappers and traps.

Anyone who has ever taken a kill trap through the Registration and testing processes know just how expensive and how loaded the process is against traps.

A kill trap owner must be able to demonstrate his traps ability to kill three animals. Each animal must have expired in under three minutes from the moment the trap is triggered. This process is carried out under a rigidly controlled regime at a testing facility.

Also the trap must demonstrate it can be made bird safe.

Whereas our two registered 'Aerial Dropped Residual Poisons' can take three days and three weeks respectively to kill an animal.
Aerial Dropped Residual Poisons, are not pest specific, nor are they selective, they kill all oxygen breathing creatures.

----------


## DavidGunn

Why is the trapping targeted at the possums death?, What research has been done into live capture in large numbers?, Certainly they are still going to die at the hands of the trapper, but what is the time frame for checking live capture traps?

----------


## veitnamcam

Somewhere on here is a member trapping extensively who has used the gas resetting traps and found them not to catch unless very high numbers? 

I am sure I read it on here?

----------


## Inger

My Other Half says that the ability for the unit to report back, would be hindered by the lack of cell phone coverage in most areas where there is a high number of possums.  

If there was good cell phone coverage, it should be possible to make a small printed circuit board that connects to the counter which is available for these kill traps.  It can then phone home and let you know how many times the unit has fired.

----------


## Dundee

> Why is the trapping targeted at the possums death?, What research has been done into live capture in large numbers?, Certainly they are still going to die at the hands of the trapper, but what is the time frame for checking live capture traps?


Its all legal mumbo jumbo now except for DOC and there supporters :Sad: 

A reminder of rules for the use of leg-hold traps | MPI Biosecurity New Zealand

----------


## Dundee

Yeah Rite.. :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Savage1

I'd believe science over the ranting antis on this forum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6hxo1sC-dU

When you put up the reasons for and against 1080 and leave all of the unsubstantiated BS out of it and look at what would happen without it, it's pretty clear why they use it.

Want to see how much damage deer do to the native forest? Go for a walk in a Northland forest, the difference is like night and day.

----------


## Graeme Sturgeon

> I'd believe science over the ranting antis on this forum.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6hxo1sC-dU
> 
> When you put up the reasons for and against 1080 and leave all of the unsubstantiated BS out of it and look at what would happen without it, it's pretty clear why they use it.
> 
> Want to see how much damage deer do to the native forest? Go for a walk in a Northland forest, the difference is like night and day.


Surely you 'savage' are not saying that you would condone illegal acts like poisoning deer with 1080.

You do understand that 1080 is not a registered poison to use on Deer control and therefore the person that targets deer with it is committing an illegal act.

Reason being that it delivers a sub lethal doses and is thereby inhumane.

Some science here www.1080science.co.nz

----------


## mucko

i see more damage by stoats and pigs, then deer or opussums, evidence and noted opinions points to deer doing more good then harm as they have replaced the Moa in the food chain which was missing in the ecosystem for hundreds of years. we humans are the ones fucking the bush it was in perfect balance before any human turned up and thought they knew better then mother nature.

----------


## Gibo

I have only one thought (sorry i'm simple) I would hate to see anyone banned over any of this. Having an opinion and learning/sharing info is what we are all here for. The anti 1080 people are far less offensive to me than the anti tikka and anti 270 hua's!!  :Psmiley:  

I dont read things if I dont care for them. Simple. I took your advice  :Wink:

----------


## Toby

> I have only one thought (sorry i'm simple) I would hate to see anyone banned over any of this. Having an opinion and learning/sharing info is what we are all here for. The anti 1080 people are far less offensive to me than the anti tikka and anti 270 hua's!!  
> 
> I dont read things if I dont care for them. Simple. I took your advice


You don't get an opinion while you own a tikka .270. go back to your cave  :Grin:

----------


## screamO

I enjoy reading the threads! I will also make up my own mind on the pro or anti and I also know I don't have to read it if it offends me.
I know it's not really achieving anything in the big picture off 1080 use, but it could be making more people a wear of the said problems? which in turn might make some people want to take it further.
What I do find annoying is how a bunch of grown men and women who all seem like good buggers can turn this into personal attacks against each other. If everybody just kept it on topic and supplied there information as they see it, it should be fine and make it easier on the mods that have to control it?
Everyone has a right to there opinion don't they.

----------


## BRADS

> You don't get an opinion while you own a tikka .270. go back to your cave


Post of the week :Have A Nice Day: 
Yes great idea tussock ban these shit threads :Have A Nice Day: 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## Savage1

> Surely you 'savage' are not saying that you would condone illegal acts like poisoning deer with 1080.
> 
> You do understand that 1080 is not a registered poison to use on Deer control and therefore the person that targets deer with it is committing an illegal act.
> 
> Reason being that it delivers a sub lethal doses and is thereby inhumane.
> 
> Some science here 1080science.co.nz


Did I mention poisoning deer with 1080? No, so your post is erroneous. 

I suggest you learn what science is before saying that that website represents science of 1080. Picking and choosing studies and not peer reviewing isn't science.

----------


## kiwijames

> Well, I read the last part of this thread. 
> 
> Here are my thoughts on the matter.
> 
> Anti-10/80 crowd seem to be achieving very little by bludgeoning people into supporting them, and should possibly be saved from themselves. They seem to be achieving more for the pro-camp with their approach. 
> People who find the discussions and the fact they always get personal annoying seem to outnumber pro and anti, and that is taking into account most will just ignore the thread. 
> Opinions seem fixed, making discussions pretty pointless anyway. Your either vehemently pro, or anti. Anyone floating will run a mile from the topic because of the amount of venom. 
> 
> I suggest we call this a fail, delete any mention of 10/80 on sight, and gift all 10/80 related traffic to FnH. They love that shit. 
> ...


You go to the pub to have a quite beer with your mates, shoot the breeze and wind down. You chose that pub because the publican politely offered a code of conduct that fits with you. There's quite a lot of you like that there, that's why you like it. 
If you wanted to go to the "doof doof" club down the road, where you cant hear yourself think for all the racket that's you choice, but you don't. 
I'm happy to offer directions to those who prefer the "rave" scene. Do we need to put up a streetmap down by the gents door?

----------


## kiwijames

> I enjoy reading the threads! I will also make up my own mind on the pro or anti and I also know I don't have to read it if it offends me.
> I know it's not really achieving anything in the big picture off 1080 use, but it could be making more people a wear of the said problems? which in turn might make some people want to take it further.
> What I do find annoying is how a bunch of grown men and women who all seem like good buggers can turn this into personal attacks against each other. If everybody just kept it on topic and supplied there information as they see it, it should be fine and make it easier on the mods that have to control it?
> Everyone has a right to there opinion don't they.


Not on a forum hosted by someone else who requested a very few rules were considered before you post. This is not a democracy.

----------


## Pengy

I cant afford to go to the pub, which is why I spend far too much time on here  :Have A Nice Day: 

"doof doof"...hahahah :Thumbsup:

----------


## Graeme Sturgeon

> Did I mention poisoning deer with 1080? No, so your post is erroneous. 
> 
> I suggest you learn what science is before saying that that website represents science of 1080. Picking and choosing studies and not peer reviewing isn't science.


Deer damage to the Forest and 1080 in the same thread??? I apologise if I read you wrong 'savage'

I am glad you have somehow worked out a way to avoid killing deer with aerial 1080. You should pass that information on you know.  

Mike Meads was peer reviewed 6 times.

Scribe

----------


## BRADS

> Deer damage to the Forest and 1080 in the same thread??? I apologise if I read you wrong 'savage'
> 
> Mike Meads was peer reviewed 6 times.


Chill bro :Have A Nice Day: 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## screamO

> I enjoy reading the threads! I will also make up my own mind on the pro or anti and I also know I don't have to read it if it offends me.
> I know it's not really achieving anything in the big picture off 1080 use, but it could be making more people a wear of the said problems? which in turn might make some people want to take it further.
> What I do find annoying is how a bunch of grown men and women who all seem like good buggers can turn this into personal attacks against each other. If everybody just kept it on topic and supplied there information as they see it, it should be fine and make it easier on the mods that have to control it?
> Everyone has a right to there opinion don't they.


Well I think I have just been proven wrong

----------


## mucko

its funny this thread we can all have a opinion as long as it suits a select few, we come from all different walks of life and have seen many things thats what makes our own opinion, regardless of the topic we are all within our rights to hold our own opinion without being verbally attacked or threatened. respect the fact we are adults and have formed our own opinions though our personal experiences and leave it at that. you are not held at gunpoint to read the thread yet feel compelled to comment, go read another thread or start your own. you dont have to antagonize people to have your opinion heard.

----------


## Graeme Sturgeon

> You go to the pub to have a quite beer with your mates, shoot the breeze and wind down. You chose that pub because the publican politely offered a code of conduct that fits with you. There's quite a lot of you like that there, that's why you like it. 
> If you wanted to go to the "doof doof" club down the road, where you cant hear yourself think for all the racket that's you choice, but you don't. 
> I'm happy to offer directions to those who prefer the "rave" scene. Do we need to put up a streetmap down by the gents door?


Hand up, I know, I know... The sort of pub where you are only allowed to talk Rugby.

----------


## Woody

> Did I mention poisoning deer with 1080? No, so your post is erroneous. 
> 
> I suggest you learn what science is before saying that that website represents science of 1080. Picking and choosing studies and not peer reviewing isn't science.


That is complete bollocks Savage1. The website 
1080science.co.nz

is administered by Dr J C Pollard, who has a PhD  (doctorate in zoology. Her associated contributors are also highly qualified and experienced scientists and foresters.

Parts of the site, including the ERMA index are faithful extracts from the ERMA review process. Another link is to the
www.rarebits.co.nz 
site also constructed by Dr Pollard which contains specific very interesting report notes by Department of Conservation.

Also on the 1080science.co.nz
site has a link named "Appeals" which details the extreme reluctance by the PCE to hear evidence against 1080 poison from numerous New Zealanders.

I would suggest that you are deliberately attempting to denigrate a qualified scientist and associated scientists, technicians and foresters, Department of Conservation science and the ERMA review science by inferring that only a narrow dictionary interpretations of what "science' is, is allowable on this forum or anywhere else , for that matter. If the forum applied your inferred rule of Peer review", is would cease to exist in every thread.
You are also attempting to dissuade members of this forum from viewing one of the best independent science websites in this country. 

Shame on you.

 I suggest you think again and allow others their point of view. Nobody is perfect, including me, but people are entitled to valid opinion, thoughts and to present their evidence and entitled to discuss and learn. What you are attempting is to stultify that and in the course of your own posts are simply applying gross generalisations as a means of criticising others. It seems you have an interest in trying to have this thread discussion destroyed, and thereby depriving concerned members from fair exchanges of information and concerns.

----------


## Woody

> Well, I read the last part of this thread. 
> 
> Here are my thoughts on the matter.
> 
> Anti-10/80 crowd seem to be achieving very little by bludgeoning people into supporting them, and should possibly be saved from themselves. They seem to be achieving more for the pro-camp with their approach. 
> People who find the discussions and the fact they always get personal annoying seem to outnumber pro and anti, and that is taking into account most will just ignore the thread. 
> Opinions seem fixed, making discussions pretty pointless anyway. Your either vehemently pro, or anti. Anyone floating will run a mile from the topic because of the amount of venom. 
> 
> I suggest we call this a fail, delete any mention of 10/80 on sight, and gift all 10/80 related traffic to FnH. They love that shit. 
> ...


Hi Tussock.
Personally I believe there is a place for the debate, albeit, contentious, surrounding the use of poisons like 1080 because the effects are perceived to be a threat to hunting and fishing and the related environments by more than just a few. Others may feel the use of such poison is of great benefit to their sports of hunting and fishing. It is an issue important to Hunters and Fishermen.

I think there should be a specific subject thread created for the issue such that it is not just randomly appearing within the Hunting, or the Fishing, dogs, or other thread main headings.

Obscene posts can be subject to the same discipline as on any other thread.

My 2 cents.

----------


## mucko

> Hi Tussock.
> Personally I believe there is a place for the debate, albeit, contentious, surrounding the use of poisons like 1080 because the effects are perceived to be a threat to hunting and fishing and the related environments by more than just a few. Others may feel the use of such poison is of great benefit to their sports of hunting and fishing. It is an issue important to Hunters and Fishermen.
> 
> I think there should be a specific subject thread created for the issue such that it is not just randomly appearing within the Hunting, or the Fishing, dogs, or other thread main headings.
> 
> Obscene posts can be subject to the same discipline as on any other thread.
> 
> My 2 cents.


Agreed

----------


## kiwijames

> Hand up, I know, I know... The sort of pub where you are only allowed to talk Rugby.


And cricket.

----------


## Gibo

> And cricket.


and Saabmarines

----------


## Toby

> and Saabmarines


And pretty much everything except politics and religon as well. Good pub that one

----------


## kiwijames

> and Saabmarines


And all sorts of light hearted uplifting stuff. Positive stuff. Not the reaper is on your doorstep so you may as well slit your wrists now stuff. There is the news and the thousands of other publications, both hard copy and digital to weigh you down.

----------


## gimp



----------


## mucko

he who has the power aye.

----------


## gimp

These threads are shit, you see. People are unable to not act like children about certain things and 1080 is one of them.

----------


## Gibo

and Saabmarines

----------


## ebf

Well, between Graeme and Woody, we seem to have 2 members hell-bent on turning every single corner of this forum into a 1080 debate/argument.

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...k-again-18453/
http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...-speaks-18669/
http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...-nature-18692/

This forum has a very simple rule : no politics or religion. i might be wrong, but in NZ the 1080 debate IS either politics or religion  :Have A Nice Day:  Every single one of the 1080 threads ends up in a typical NZHS goatfuck.

Two options I can see : either delete the threads, or create a separate board for 1080 issues, so that those of us who want to avoid it can do so and continue to enjoy the forum.

----------


## gimp

> create a separate board for 1080 issues, so that those of us who want to avoid it can do so and continue to enjoy the forum.


It's called "any other forum", and I suggest Graeme et al fuck off there before I get drunk and/or annoyed and use my buttons


oh no the mods are arseholes

----------


## screamO

> These threads are shit, you see. People are unable to not act like children about certain things and 1080 is one of them.


I disagree with the first part but you seem to be absolutely right about the second part. It's a shame really.

----------


## mucko

why is it such a big fucking deal to let people discuss 1080 for or against who cares if they are happy to debut it, is there a problem with having its own thread, you moderators can see who the shit stirrers are the ones that chime in just to get a bite out of someone for or against 1080, we can learn from both side and make our own minds up on the matter without the powers that be wielding the almighty delete button, who,s the one acting like a kid. let the forum be what you guys started it out to be. the feeling now is if we dont agree with the moderators its a fuck you your banned attitude.

----------


## mucko

> It's called "any other forum", and I suggest Graeme et al fuck off there before I get drunk and/or annoyed and use my buttons
> 
> 
> oh no the mods are arseholes


what a control freak

----------


## gimp

> what a control freak


actually I'm the opposite of a control freak, I don't like moderating stuff and threads like this fill my email inbox up with messages like "REPORTED POST ON NZHS FORUM BY <some whiner>" which I prefer not to deal with so it's easier not to have the thread, cheers.

----------


## gimp

Why do you want to find someone selling dildos? Questionable.

----------


## gimp

Dreadful moderators, but of course anyone who actually wants to be one and do stuff, oughtn't be allowed

----------


## gimp

Also it's fucking pouring and my truck is in the shop and I have to plan a trip to Fiordland tomorrow otherwise I'd be outdoors doing things rather than posting about posting, which is the worst kind of posting

----------


## mucko

> actually I'm the opposite of a control freak, I don't like moderating stuff and threads like this fill my email inbox up with messages like "REPORTED POST ON NZHS FORUM BY <some whiner>" which I prefer not to deal with so it's easier not to have the thread, cheers.


Fair enough @gimp is there a way it could work so it does not overburden the moderator team, yes 1080 is a heavy topic but if you could find a way for thread to work on the matter would be good for the mod team and members. you dont wont to sit there all day ready with the delete button when ever 1080 gets a mention. it will come up in a topic some where, tussock mentioned splitting posts when the subject changes direction. it would be much better to resolve a better way to manage it then telling members to fuck off.

----------


## ebf

Yeah, fair point about F&H being available for this type of "debate", only problem being that it is not sinking in with those that create these threads.

So, delete the threads, and if they keep appearing, delete the creators... Let the gimp unleash his button frenzy  :Thumbsup: 

Mods are damned if they do, damned if they don't. By banning the culprits you are just going to create martyrs and provide more fuel for the mod-haters on here. On the other hand, do you really want to create a sub-board where the lunatics can rant amongst themselves ?

----------


## Kiwi Greg

> So, delete the threads, and if they keep appearing, delete the creators... Let the gimp unleash his button frenzy


Deleting/banning posters doesn't always work....Guys just have a big cry....or text/contact mods until they are unbanned....

----------


## Toby

> Deleting/banning posters doesn't always work....Guys just have a big cry....or text/contact mods until they are unbanned....


Because Brads is a good cunt and its good he's back

----------


## Kiwi Greg

> Because Brads is a good cunt and its good he's back


Who was talking about Brads ?

----------


## Happy

> Because Brads is a good cunt and its good he's back


That language should get you told to pull your head in or banned . Some words should not be written on here.

----------


## Toby

Of course you weren't dear...

Good cunt is bad now happy? Cheer up cup cake

----------


## gimp

> Of course you weren't dear...
> 
> Good cunt is bad now happy? Cheer up cup cake


It is quite poor form. Very crass.

----------


## Shamus

> It is quite poor form. Very crass.


Out of interest what if any is the forum policy on offensive language/posts etc - a recent example

_"Post 13 , line 4 , 4th word in........ there,s your answer,  BITCH PIG, never met one that didn't wish she had a dick, the fact that she asked if you had a secure lock up in your vehicle when she knows you are NOT required to have one just goes to show the real attitude (bad day? maybe her husband ran off with her girlfriend ) ... "_

----------


## gimp

It'd be nice if people would self moderate their language and not act like morons because I don't want to have to do it, but that's pretty extremely uncool

----------


## GravelBen

Sometimes it seems like there are more argumentative posts about whether or not 1080 threads should be banned than there are about 1080.

----------


## steven

> We were told we were at peak oil production years ago and to expect oil prices to rise and rise and rise...... yet diesel is 2/3 the price it was a few months ago?


Peak oil refers to conventional peak oil, its conventionally extracted oil from a "traditional oil well", think Saudi Arabia, it was 2005~2006. What has happened is US shale oil has produced 4mbpd masking the conventional decline, til now. However the shale drillers are going bankrupt or are stopping drilling due to the price collapse of the over-supply they created.  So final peak oil including shale and Canadian tar is looking this year or next.    What you will see is a rising price which when it gets to about 6% US GDP causes a recession and hence loss of demand causes the price to collapse.  So what you will actually see probably  a saw tooth effect and not a sustained high price.  Oil has by the looks of it bottomed and is pushing $57 so your tank fill is going back up.

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## Dundee

Just the messenger here don't shoot me down.  Some hunters in the area should know about this if it's not you move along too the next thread.

This 1080 drop (weather permitting) will take place Saturday 14th February - Makarora is at the head of Lake Wanaka and the drop zone covers both sides of State Highway Six. The dispersal area is next to the Makarora River, within 200m of SH6, and within 500m of the Cameron Flat camping ground.

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## Dundee

:Sad:

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## GravelBen

Looks like trampers on the Young-Wilkin circuit will be getting a green shower too then!


I guess that land beside the main road is far to remote to even consider trapping or bait stations instead of aerial drops.

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## Sniper

[QUOTE= I guess that land beside the main road is far to remote to even consider trapping or bait stations instead of aerial drops.[/QUOTE]

Thats my thinking. I get there probably needs to be some ariel drops, but surely areas like this should be trapped, bait stations or shot. Just like the valley or whatever has endangered species in them, trap the surrounding area, ariel drop the rest. Surely this must be a better way than what DOC etc are doing now. After all, isn't the main / whole reason for this is to protect these species?

Dosent make sense to me.

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## hunter308

Just get rid of 1080 period and we won't have to have these discussions

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## Dundee

Channel 1 now

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## Maca49

What a joke that was FFS, airy fairy and bias to Dick Docs

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## 260hunter

Let them drop all the 1080 they want, kill all the birds, then there is no need for the stuff and the problem will go away. 

The problem is not the 1080, its the bloody birds so once they are gone there the whole place will quieten down. 

Problem solved

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## MattyP

Every time I see 1080 on the news none of the reporters seem to have been briefed very well - or just lack the balls to ask some tough questions or reference some studies, etc. Either that or they can't even get doc to appear unless they submit a list of questions they'll be asking beforehand. Wouldn't surprise me. If that's the case though then they should teach them a lesson and run a piece without them even being there to defend themselves.

If we lose ONE bait at work - ONE - we have to go through a lot of drama and paperwork. If a non-target species eats it through it being lost or the trap not being disposed of properly...then the shit really hits the fan. Did I emphasize one bait enough?

Then there is the New Zealand Department of *Conservation* nuking half the country with hundreds of thousands of baits in a completely non species-specific way. Blows my mind.

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## Maca49

MattyP if you lose a bait I'd bring that up in my defence, obviously the product is totally harmless to anything except targetted species because of the random spread of it from the air! Would be really good to bring up in a personal grievance situ, if someone was dismissed for losing a bait, might be a good way to lose your job, once you are sick of it :Thumbsup:

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## MattyP

> MattyP if you lose a bait I'd bring that up in my defence, obviously the product is totally harmless to anything except targetted species because of the random spread of it from the air! Would be really good to bring up in a personal grievance situ, if someone was dismissed for losing a bait, might be a good way to lose your job, once you are sick of it


Haha. Alas though, where I work stuff is actually backed up by science and evidence. If we found a dead animal from a bait that was targetting non-indigenous rats, we wouldn't be able to explain it away by some bullshit like snow killing it. Because they would test it, and then know. Crazy logical ideas, right!?

Bet they don't test those birds even if they do find any bodies. Easy enough to do.

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## Frogfeatures

Bet they don't test those birds even if they do find any bodies. Easy enough to do.[/QUOTE]

They don't WANT to find the bodies, cos until they do it's all 'posibilities' and nothing proven.
Common :Wtfsmilie:  sense has been replaced with 'pseudo science'

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## GravelBen

Looks like trampers on the Young-Wilkin circuit will be getting a green shower too then!


I guess that land beside the main road is far to remote to even consider trapping or bait stations instead of aerial drops.

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## Sniper

[QUOTE= I guess that land beside the main road is far to remote to even consider trapping or bait stations instead of aerial drops.[/QUOTE]

Thats my thinking. I get there probably needs to be some ariel drops, but surely areas like this should be trapped, bait stations or shot. Just like the valley or whatever has endangered species in them, trap the surrounding area, ariel drop the rest. Surely this must be a better way than what DOC etc are doing now. After all, isn't the main / whole reason for this is to protect these species?

Dosent make sense to me.

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## hunter308

Just get rid of 1080 period and we won't have to have these discussions

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## Dundee

Channel 1 now

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## Maca49

What a joke that was FFS, airy fairy and bias to Dick Docs

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## 260hunter

Let them drop all the 1080 they want, kill all the birds, then there is no need for the stuff and the problem will go away. 

The problem is not the 1080, its the bloody birds so once they are gone there the whole place will quieten down. 

Problem solved

----------


## MattyP

Every time I see 1080 on the news none of the reporters seem to have been briefed very well - or just lack the balls to ask some tough questions or reference some studies, etc. Either that or they can't even get doc to appear unless they submit a list of questions they'll be asking beforehand. Wouldn't surprise me. If that's the case though then they should teach them a lesson and run a piece without them even being there to defend themselves.

If we lose ONE bait at work - ONE - we have to go through a lot of drama and paperwork. If a non-target species eats it through it being lost or the trap not being disposed of properly...then the shit really hits the fan. Did I emphasize one bait enough?

Then there is the New Zealand Department of *Conservation* nuking half the country with hundreds of thousands of baits in a completely non species-specific way. Blows my mind.

----------


## Maca49

MattyP if you lose a bait I'd bring that up in my defence, obviously the product is totally harmless to anything except targetted species because of the random spread of it from the air! Would be really good to bring up in a personal grievance situ, if someone was dismissed for losing a bait, might be a good way to lose your job, once you are sick of it :Thumbsup:

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## MattyP

> MattyP if you lose a bait I'd bring that up in my defence, obviously the product is totally harmless to anything except targetted species because of the random spread of it from the air! Would be really good to bring up in a personal grievance situ, if someone was dismissed for losing a bait, might be a good way to lose your job, once you are sick of it


Haha. Alas though, where I work stuff is actually backed up by science and evidence. If we found a dead animal from a bait that was targetting non-indigenous rats, we wouldn't be able to explain it away by some bullshit like snow killing it. Because they would test it, and then know. Crazy logical ideas, right!?

Bet they don't test those birds even if they do find any bodies. Easy enough to do.

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## Frogfeatures

Bet they don't test those birds even if they do find any bodies. Easy enough to do.[/QUOTE]

They don't WANT to find the bodies, cos until they do it's all 'posibilities' and nothing proven.
Common :Wtfsmilie:  sense has been replaced with 'pseudo science'

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