# Hunting > Hunting >  Thar extermination

## lumberjack

Copied from Facebook for those that haven't seen this.

Right, can of worms opened. Time to get serouis guys 

Eugenie Sage MP 

Every single person share this with your freinds and family. 

A Greens party MP and conservation minister is set to destroy one of New Zealands most famous game animals in a disgusting all out slaughter of thousands of animals with no scientific evidence to say anything and use platforms from 1990s as an excuse to kill anything that moves. 
.                                                                                                                            "Minister Sage has now come up with what Greg Duley has aptly termed Tahrmageddon. Her latest un-consulted edict is to require at least 17500 further tahr to be removed beyond the 5000 she said they had shot to mid July. This includes 10000 from the Rakaia-Rangitata and Gammack-Two Thumb area and to keep going until they remove that many  not clear there are that many so east coast hunting will be stuffed for a decade. Mt Cook NP and Westland NP are to be targeted to zero density. Hunters are to be given the task of controlling tahr in the remote experience zones which have expensive restricted access and the most challenging terrain so the intention is clear  to set us up to fail then step in.

The shooting on the east coast will be in the most accessible areas to rec hunters. They now also intend to shoot not only nannies and juveniles but also 30% of identifiable bulls. As her justification she is using the ignored for a decade Himalayan tahr control plan 1993 (HTCP) however thats BS and the plan has multiple requirements for consultation which have been ignored. This is her dogma driven final solution for tahr. There is no justification for this and it is simply her exterminationist dogma.

Her aim is to start the culling Sept 30th and finish it by mid November this year. If hunters are slow to react it will be too late, her intent is clear  to have the tahr dead before hunters have the chance to react effectively.

The NZ Tahr Foundation is likely to be the vehicle to challenge this and legal options are being explored, funding has been secured. For the first time the AATH guys, the guides, rec hunters are all on the same side adamantly opposed to her cleansing exercise, all have much to lose as does the nation  many tens of millions of visitor income.

Contact the minister and ask her to cease the intended action and hold meaningful consultation with all hunters as required by the HTCP, ask for the data to demonstrate the need, ask for maps of the areas affected etc etc. Note your concerns.

The Minister of Conservations email is eugenie.sage@parliament.govt.nz

We urgently need bulk numbers to grind her office to a standstill and create attention, nice approaches and reason do not work with her, GAC and the tahr community have tried it and failed, she is not listening yet. Also raise the issue with as many ministers and MPs as you can.

Spread the word. If she succeeds with this on tahr then its likely various deer herds are next and when there is little left to hunt why do you need firearms ?

Be polite please, ask lots of questions, note she has at most 20 days to respond and do it ASAP. Bulk lobbying is one of our strengths, use it.

Thanks"

So lads and lassies drop Auntie Eugenie a line and let her know that we care

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

----------


## Russian 22.

Best to write hand written letters.

She has to reply in kind. Couple thousand of those and she'll probably change her mind

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

----------


## Rock river arms hunter

Beat me to it.

She's a watermelon party member- enough said!

----------


## JoshC

People have to speak up and send an email or letter asap. 

You can't complain about lack of game animals in the next few years if you don't speak up now. The greens have made it clear that they don't care about hunters whatsoever.

The threat is real and the risk of numbers being heavily reduced in areas accessed regularly by many of us is pretty significant.

Even if you're not great with words, at least send something simple, constructive, even one short paragraph requesting they consult with the hunting community better.

----------


## veitnamcam

Done.

----------


## Tahr

Take a leaf out of their own book.

Writing to politicians | GREENPEACE New Zealand

----------


## 223nut

Done, small end of the wedge sadly... Aren't thar endangered in the Himalayas and new Zealand would be the only place in the world you can hunt them in the wild...

----------


## Boaraxa

I did an e mail highlighting a few question & I copied and pasted to a letter I will post as well just to be sure someone reads it ..anyone got a postal address ?

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

Have also written in, it's for a very good cause. Thanks for the heads up

----------


## gonetropo

cheer for the info. stupid bloody pollies

----------


## ebf

Well, Facebook seems to have gone wild with posts about "Tahrmagedon" today.

Other than the email from NZDA that seems to have started it, does anyone have links to "official" info that confirms the story ?

----------


## hotsoup

Shared, emailed Eugenie & also my local National MP

----------


## Rock river arms hunter

Found this ripper meme.

Sums it up perfectly

----------


## Boaraxa

So far this is the only mailing address iv come up with , can any confirm if this is correct ?

Private Bag 18888
Parliament Buildings
Wellington 6160

----------


## norsk

We need to put an alternative spin on this.

1)Animal rights groups need to be notified of the Slaughter

2)Demands must be made on the utilization of the carcasses

3)Qualifications and identities of everyone involved at the sharp end need to be made public.That way anyone can look for irregularity.

The Green party wouldn't trawl lake Taupo and kill all the Trout,then throw them back in to Rot.So why are they doing the same to the Southern Alps...

We can't say "please dont shoot all the Thar...We want to shoot all the Thar"

Contact Animal rights groups,shut this down the back way.

----------


## Boaraxa

> We need to put an alternative spin on this.
> 
> 1)Animal rights groups need to be notified of the Slaughter
> 
> 2)Demands must be made on the utilization of the carcasses
> 
> 3)Qualifications and identities of everyone involved at the sharp end need to be made public.That way anyone can look for irregularity.
> 
> The Green party wouldn't trawl lake Taupo and kill all the Trout,then throw them back in to Rot.So why are they doing the same to the Southern Alps...
> ...


Imagine the population explosion of all the Rats, cats, ferrets etc that will feed on the 20,000 odd thousand carcasses , the ones that land on ice will last for months and when the carcasses do run out the new plague of pests will turn on the native birds , bugs and fauna or how do they mitigate carcasses that fall into water ways , iv seen how far a dead Tahr can roll shot 1 on a scree a couple of years ago it rolled around 1.5 k,s !!

----------


## Hayden C

> So far this is the only mailing address iv come up with , can any confirm if this is correct ?
> 
> Private Bag 18888
> Parliament Buildings
> Wellington 6160


This is the only address I can find.    

I've emailed through a breif response/submission and will put one in the post on the way home from work as well.

----------


## lumberjack

Heres the original proposal by DOC and the minister

----------


## Ryan_Songhurst

Whilst I dont agree with the numbers, tahr need to be culled, theres bloody heaps of the buggers about and they build up into near plague proportions in some areas. They are a good freezer filler but dont really interest me as a game animal anymore as youre guaranteed success if you look in the right places and it seems every man and his dog can go out and shoot a 12 or 13 inch plus bull and a tonne of nannies and younguns for the freezer. Its a shame that this mad woman at the helm just goes and makes these decisions seemingly without any kind of dialogue with interested parties other than her own bunch and in true DOC fashion, facts and figures are pulled from antiquated studies and figures to suit her agenda.

----------


## lumberjack

I think most agree with you Ryan. They definitely need culled in certain areas as the numbers are ridiculous. What people are angry about is the outright slaughter that DOC has proposed 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

----------


## Sideshow

Think there is not really the worry about the numbers that need culling more the worry that we don't trust these buggers that they will stop! Time and again they have said one thing and then gone and done the exact opposite.
But yes get ya pens out boys  and girls and pester your local politicians as well as this main mp and the shadow mp. The more the better even if you don't live our hunt in the South Island. 
A reduction is needed by the sounds of it but from what I've just read here......can we really trust them to keep there word!?

----------


## Shearer

I just asked the minister why they were picking on Tahr and not introduced predators like Brown and Rainbow trout. :Grin:

----------


## Sauer

Whilst writing to MPs is better than nothing, the ONLY thing that seems to sway politicians is bad publicity.

What you need to do is to flood the public domain with photos of dead Tahr, accompanied by a photo of the politician who ordered it.

Just look at the politicians who have resigned from office recently. What made them resign wasn’t what they did, it was the pressure they came under for what they did by it being made public. 

I would bet that a very high proportion of the NZ public have never seen a Tahr - many probably wouldn’t know what one was, but that doesn’t mean they won’t be affected by photos of dead animals left to rot on the hillside. The reason this slaughter is going ahead is because most of the voting public are oblivious to the fact it is happening.

----------


## norsk

> Whilst I dont agree with the numbers, tahr need to be culled, theres bloody heaps of the buggers about and they build up into near plague proportions in some areas. They are a good freezer filler but dont really interest me as a game animal anymore as youre guaranteed success if you look in the right places and it seems every man and his dog can go out and shoot a 12 or 13 inch plus bull and a tonne of nannies and younguns for the freezer. Its a shame that this mad woman at the helm just goes and makes these decisions seemingly without any kind of dialogue with interested parties other than her own bunch and in true DOC fashion, facts and figures are pulled from antiquated studies and figures to suit her agenda.


I see you point.

However culling them and leaving them to Rot is only because they are classed as a pest.

If the Government is forced to recover the animals,the cost will increase ten fold. Then they will be forced to look at alternatives such as licencing foreign hunters or a quota system for guides. This could ultimatley cause a shift in the Thar status to game animal.

----------


## Beavis

My main concern is the seeming contempt that this woman and her Department has for public consultation

----------


## Fat ninja

They could let the crews recover the meat, that way there is no cost to the government, let the ground hunters have a good crack in the easy to get to places, if they don’t do the job to the standard let the WARO guys in, to get the numbers down, if they fail then cull them and let them go waste, just my thoughts on trying to keep everyone happy and have their slice of the pie, not too everyone’s liking I know, but hey I tried.

----------


## Sideshow

@Fat ninja this seems to be just the reason that we are at this point is that not enough have been taken by the recreational hunters.
Ask @gimp he knows more.

----------


## Bernie

Sent an email hope it helps reminded her she's a public servant  and wonder if this was really serving the publics interest  prob never get read

----------


## Mooseman

E-Mail sent, ground hunters have never had it easy in terms of access, take for example the wilderness areas which are only open to helicopter access for a few months of the year. Surly if they wanted to have recreational hunters  do more then the access should be opened up. DOC if they were serious about reducing numbers in areas of high populations could fly hunters in for culling operations at a reduced cost.

----------


## oldboy

I wonder where NZ First is in all of this. They say they champion the shooter rights, Wached Ron Mark stand in the house and gave a great speech re licenced shooters rights.
Has any one been in contact with NZF re this cull.

----------


## Reindeer

> E-Mail sent, ground hunters have never had it easy in terms of access, take for example the wilderness areas which are only open to helicopter access for a few months of the year. Surly if they wanted to have recreational hunters  do more then the access should be opened up. DOC if they were serious about reducing numbers in areas of high populations could fly hunters in for culling operations at a reduced cost.


I agree @Mooseman 
I reckon run a summer ballot.
Dec-Jan 8 periods summer tahr hunt.
I would be all over that. 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

----------


## Tankd

For what it is worth here they are get them while you can , with co-ordinates as well .   :Thumbsup: 

https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-re...ng-operations/

----------


## Rock river arms hunter

Sums it up pretty much

----------


## JoshC

Yes tahr need managed. I hate the word culled. Their numbers are too high in some areas. 

On my last trip we saw about 150 over a two and a half day trip, in three catchments and we walked over 75kms. There were five of us and we shot 18 tahr and took meat off them all. 

Management involves liaising and listening to interested parties, our values and opinions as recreational hunters are being ignored.

Their estimated tahr population range following the latest survey is 17,500 to 53,000. 

The numbers they are talking of culling will exceed the lower population estimate, so these operations will essentially eradicate the tahr from some ranges. That is the scary part.

No, they won't get all the tahr, particularly in South Westland, the bush will protect a few, but the East Coast blocks will easily be cleaned out.

Sage has made it clear that under her office, recreational hunting will have no purpose on the public estate. She is outright anti hunting.

Yes we've had it good, but that is about to change. No question.

----------


## Tahr

> Attachment 95356
> 
> Sums it up pretty much


This sort of rubbish does more damage than good.

----------


## Steve123

> Yes tahr need managed. I hate the word culled. Their numbers are too high in some areas. 
> 
> On my last trip we saw about 150 over a two and a half day trip, in three catchments and we walked over 75kms. There were five of us and we shot 18 tahr and took meat off them all. 
> 
> Management involves liaising and listening to interested parties, our values and opinions as recreational hunters are being ignored.
> 
> Their estimated tahr population range following the latest survey is 17,500 to 53,000. 
> 
> The numbers they are talking of culling will exceed the lower population estimate, so these operations will essentially eradicate the tahr from some ranges. That is the scary part.
> ...


I wish there was an "agreed" button. Fully get where your your coming from and agree totally but don't like what the closet commie's up to. Soon our wilderness area's will be full of freedom campers shitting all over the fuckin place as they do there great walks.

----------


## gimp

> Attachment 95356
> 
> Sums it up pretty much


Lol Godwin, punishing

----------


## Rock river arms hunter

Yea fair point but it's making a bold statement though

----------


## r87mm

Someone said to me a while ago why don't you hunters fight fire with fire? I said what do you mean? Their reply was aren't they trying to save the forests and animals. I said yes but in a deluded way with no accountability. They said what would happen if there was nothing to protect? What do you mean I enquired. Well say if the forest was say to have a fire or animals removed they would have no reason to protect anything. I said that's a bit extreme and unlikely to happen. They pointed out that perhaps since they take no consideration for our sport or interests you could do the same to them. Or at least point out  to them that there is direct measures. They also pointed out that doc has admitted to knowingly causing the death of birds etc with 1080. Why has there been no convictions as isn't it against the law? This was from some non hunting people. I guess at the end of the day you can only reason with reasonable people. History is litered with those that needed other means to stop them. Are we heading down the same road?

----------


## Tahr

> Lol Godwin, punishing


For those who didn't understand this (like me).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

----------


## Tahr

> Someone said to me a while ago why don't you hunters fight fire with fire? I said what do you mean? Their reply was aren't they trying to save the forests and animals. I said yes but in a deluded way with no accountability. They said what would happen if there was nothing to protect? What do you mean I enquired. Well say if the forest was say to have a fire or animals removed they would have no reason to protect anything. I said that's a bit extreme and unlikely to happen. They pointed out that perhaps since they take no consideration for our sport or interests you could do the same to them. Or at least point out  to them that there is direct measures. They also pointed out that doc has admitted to knowingly causing the death of birds etc with 1080. Why has there been no convictions as isn't it against the law? This was from some non hunting people. I guess at the end of the day you can only reason with reasonable people. History is litered with those that needed other means to stop them. Are we heading down the same road?


No

----------


## outdoorlad

> For those who didn't understand this (like me).
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law



Thanks for enlightening us, I was pondering it

----------


## Moa Hunter

> For those who didn't understand this (like me).
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


Gas The Tahr !!!

----------


## Tentman

Be interesting to know how many of those "outraged" on here have actually hunted Tahr regularly, or are they just bleating.

Hunters need to start and engage a bit, firstly with other hunters through NZDA or other organisations and then through those with Politicians and DOC.  Until the people making the decisions have a clear understanding of how many people and to what extent they "value" game animals through formal processes, moaning and yelling on forums is just wasted hot air.

For what its worth, be assured that East Coast Tahr will not be wiped out by even a concerted DOC effort - considerably reduced maybe.  From my observations their natural behavior when hammered is to disperse into smaller (ones and twos) and smaller groups, and the older nannies will get down into the scrubby gullies - and from there are probably harder to hunt than a deer from the air.

----------


## Nick-D

I haven't hunted thar. I would love the opportunity to though. I think the issue is the immediate and mass numbers being spoken. You are talking about eradicating a total 2/3 of the herd. Its a pretty extreme approach

Conservation is important, but following recommendations from a study/strategy that is 25 years old isn't good science. With-out good science you don't have good conservation. I wish they would be more transparent with study and information. I feel that if more actual information was offered on the effects and impact of thar in the alpine ecosystems, with actual consultation of the various interest groups we could move forward with less trepidation. 

This sort of axe to grind, militant approach just widens the void, encourages discontent and may well hurt the conservation cause as this mistrust manifests into action later down the line.

----------


## hotsoup

This appears to be getting some more traction. From what I hear the National spokesperson for Conservation is making an announcement to call of the cull until proper consultation is taken place

----------


## trooper90

> Yes tahr need managed. I hate the word culled. Their numbers are too high in some areas. 
> 
> On my last trip we saw about 150 over a two and a half day trip, in three catchments and we walked over 75kms. There were five of us and we shot 18 tahr and took meat off them all. 
> 
> Management involves liaising and listening to interested parties, our values and opinions as recreational hunters are being ignored.
> 
> Their estimated tahr population range following the latest survey is 17,500 to 53,000. 
> 
> The numbers they are talking of culling will exceed the lower population estimate, so these operations will essentially eradicate the tahr from some ranges. That is the scary part.
> ...


True it was tough to find a Tahr in the late 80s early 90s same as deer.

----------


## Rock river arms hunter

I spoke to my local Mps office(clutha southland) and it appears as though southlanders have been very very vocal!

On a side note Nationals spokeswoman for conservation Sarah Dowie Invercargill mp has demanded a immediate halt to the culls due to NO public consultation what so ever.

Well done guys keep it going !

----------


## Moa Hunter

> I haven't hunted thar. I would love the opportunity to though. I think the issue is the immediate and mass numbers being spoken. You are talking about eradicating a total 2/3 of the herd. Its a pretty extreme approach
> 
> Conservation is important, but following recommendations from a study/strategy that is 25 years old isn't good science. With-out good science you don't have good conservation. I wish they would be more transparent with study and information. I feel that if more actual information was offered on the effects and impact of thar in the alpine ecosystems, with actual consultation of the various interest groups we could move forward with less trepidation. 
> 
> This sort of axe to grind, militant approach just widens the void, encourages discontent and may well hurt the conservation cause as this mistrust manifests into action later down the line.


I agree with your comments regarding the science and strategy. What I would find very interesting is to compare the changes in alpine plant populations within the Tahr zone against comparable alpine areas outside the zone. That comparison would show the impact of Tahr, especially if areas of different population densities were compared.
Much extra area has been added to the DOC estate within the Tahr zone through tenure review of pastoral lease properties since the original Management Plan was written swelling the total Thar area and this needs to be taken into account - animal density per square kilometer versus total population.

----------


## hotsoup

https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-re...ng-operations/

FYI

----------


## Boaraxa

https://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-heral...s-hunting-flak

----------


## crocodiledavid

You wonder if the Minister has actually read the study that is publicly available on the DOC website.  The mean is at around 35000 but the 95% confidence interval goes from like 15000 to 54000 Tahr.  The study itself states that there are many variables that arent accountable for that makes data relatively poor in providing a true representation on population levels.....

If only they invested that $500,000 per year on better research methods and working to a greater understanding instead of just throwing a random number out there for the cull based on what essentially is an imperfect measure. 

Makes you angry that you actually pay tax for this.

----------


## stingray

We are not alone see the fishing section ...trout and Salmon are also to find themselves under the gun.

----------


## muzza

Unfortunately I can forsee helicopters been shot at , and Doc vehicles being burned and destroyed in the near future. This will make the 1080 protests look like a kids picnic.

I just hope it doesnt happen at all.....

----------


## Russian 22.

> Unfortunately I can forsee helicopters been shot at , and Doc vehicles being burned and destroyed in the near future. This will make the 1080 protests look like a kids picnic.
> 
> I just hope it doesnt happen at all.....


I hope that doesn't happen. It'd destroy any good will from the politicians and the public. 

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

----------


## oneshot

> Unfortunately I can forsee helicopters been shot at , and Doc vehicles being burned and destroyed in the near future. This will make the 1080 protests look like a kids picnic.
> 
> I just hope it doesnt happen at all.....


Plenty of nutters out there who would do this, and unfortunately be labelled "hunters" by the media making the rest of us look like shit.

----------


## Nathan F

I have sent several emails and a letter so far. The point is this ( in my opinion ). If this goes ahead and it will be detrimental for everyone make no mistake - What do you think the greenie slag will come for next ? Your sika herd in the Kaimanawas/Kawekas ? The Wapiti herd in Fiordland ? Once the deer are gone as well why the need for firearms ? Extreme ? 

Think about it . Shame on anyone who voted for this fucking rabble of a coalition . I hope the damage is not too great before they are turfed out at the next election. This may be political but make no mistake. Once they have killed our resources these fruitloops will come for your guns.

Stand up now and be heard .

----------


## Gibo

Well said

----------


## Cigar

> https://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-heral...s-hunting-flak


Funny (not) how the Conservation Authority say it's DOCs fault the numbers weren't kept under control, but the F&B person in this article blames it on hunters.

----------


## Boaraxa

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-count...ectid=12128057

Iv send a few e mails so far the only response has been an automated one from nzfirst ! be interesting to see if I get an actual reply , this could set the stage for something good if everyone gets behind it , the greens need to pull there heads out from under the rock and work with people as opposed to only working within there own group that almost no one voted for , I see in the article it mentions "The new Minister is positioning the direction of DOC away from recreation and visitor assets."

----------


## Gibo

> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-count...ectid=12128057
> 
> Iv send a few e mails so far the only response has been an automated one from nzfirst ! be interesting to see if I get an actual reply , this could set the stage for something good if everyone gets behind it , the greens need to pull there heads out from under the rock and work with people as opposed to only working within there own group that almost no one voted for , I see in the article it mentions "The new Minister is positioning the direction of DOC away from recreation and visitor assets."


That was just an opinion from National member Sarah Dowie

----------


## Tahr

> Unfortunately I can forsee helicopters been shot at , and Doc vehicles being burned and destroyed in the near future. This will make the 1080 protests look like a kids picnic.
> 
> I just hope it doesnt happen at all.....


So don't mention it then. Makes us all look like dicks.

----------


## Russian 22.

Saw on Facebook that it is already started. But keep in mind it is the fountain of totally legit sources.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

----------


## Boaraxa

I received a reply from Sarah Dowie , basically national want to put a stop to the cull until doc has consulted with the hunting industry & recreational hunters , she also said ms sage must ensure the Tahr control plan 1993 is still fit for purpose . a lot has changed in the last 20 odd years perhaps they could look at the bigger picture and include deer & cham while they are at it !

----------


## outdoorlad

Don’t mention Cham, they might be the last thing left to hunt at this rate.

----------


## Cowboy06

They have been consulted with. The tahr foundation has been at the table months ago with them all but the have ignored all the recommendations and done what they wanted any way. You guys don’t want to see the photo of pro 1080 supporter Richie McCaw with Eugene Sage.
Trout and Salmon are next.

----------


## Maxx

.

----------


## Maxx

> Attachment 95324Attachment 95325
> Heres the original proposal by DOC and the minister



Thanks....is a link to that available, or was it  personal correspondence?

----------


## ethos

> They have been consulted with. The tahr foundation has been at the table months ago with them all but the have ignored all the recommendations and done what they wanted any way. You guys don’t want to see the photo of pro 1080 supporter Richie McCaw with Eugene Sage.
> Trout and Salmon are next.

----------


## Micky Duck

FFS Ethos you will have them all crying in thier beerzies now....the beloved Ritchie is less than perfect!!!!!!!!!

----------


## ethos

Haha what an unholy match up. He schmoozing for helicopter contracts, her showing the cool people she hangs out with. Both knowing their supporters think they are knobs for doing it but doing it anyway.
Thats gold.  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## 257weatherby

> FFS Ethos you will have them all crying in thier beerzies now....the beloved Ritchie is less than perfect!!!!!!!!!


He is just an ex rugby player, yet he gets held up as an icon worthy of adulation, could have a knighthood if he wanted to, but how many here, would even recognise the names Rewi Alley and Fred Hollows? They both did something worthwhile for humanity, the other just chased a ball about. Perfect? not even close!

----------


## mikee

> He is just an ex rugby player, yet he gets held up as an icon worthy of adulation, could have a knighthood if he wanted to, but how many here, would even recognise the names Rewi Alley and Fred Hollows? They both did something worthwhile for humanity, the other just chased a ball about. Perfect? not even close!


Fred Hollow restored a lot of peoples sight if I recall correctly and his foundation is still at it

----------


## Micky Duck

Fred Hollows......blind foundation......operations to remove cateracts in poor countries and Rewi Alley.....I should know but cant think of it yet...probably wake up at 2 am now.

----------


## ethos

Richie was a good to Kaikoura after the quake particularly in the rural area he’s a decent bloke, Jesus reincarnated he is not.

----------


## Cordite

> Whilst writing to MPs is better than nothing, the ONLY thing that seems to sway politicians is bad publicity.
> 
> *What you need to do is to flood the public domain with photos of dead Tahr, accompanied by a photo of the politician who ordered it.
> *
> Just look at the politicians who have resigned from office recently. What made them resign wasnt what they did, it was the pressure they came under for what they did by it being made public. 
> 
> I would bet that a very high proportion of the NZ public have never seen a Tahr - many probably wouldnt know what one was, but that doesnt mean they wont be affected by photos of dead animals left to rot on the hillside. The reason this slaughter is going ahead is because most of the voting public are oblivious to the fact it is happening.


*Anyone* got photos???

----------


## Maxx

> Fred Hollows......blind foundation......operations to remove cateracts in poor countries and Rewi Alley.....I should know but cant think of it yet...probably wake up at 2 am now.


Rewi spent time living up the Moeawatea Valley....legend!!

----------


## lumberjack

> Thanks....is a link to that available, or was it  personal correspondence?


Sorry mate can't find it now. Was in the comments of a Facebook post by the NZDA or on one of the hunting groups. It's all on the DOC website as well. Will see if I can find that link. 
We are getting great traction with this and this is the most united New Zealand hunters have been on a issue ever I'd say. It's great to see some big names and companys getting in behind as well. The Tahr Foundation has served a letter letting DOC know that they will seek a injunction  on them if the cull is not called off until due process can be followed. 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

----------


## 257weatherby

Some years ago, was up the Macauly river, backcountry weekend with the wife, late winter, snow down to the valley floor. Wife with the truck, binos and radio, (and truck heater going flat out) spotting for me as I worked up the hill to get into a spot I had identified as good to ambush a large mob working their way down late afternoon. Doc sanctioned meat recovery chopper came screaming across the valley from North East Gorge just as the mob was coming into in my range, that chopper chased that mob all over the hill shooting them, some within a hundred yards of me. Wife on the radio screaming at me cause she thinks they will shoot me too.

She had heard me bang on about the times I got fucked over by chopper shooters lots of times before, and took it with a grain of salt. Like people do when hunters complain about anything.

That day she saw blood covered snow and dead tahr all over the hill. That day she saw animals desperately trying to escape the ultimate predator, some shot multiple times to get it down. That day she saw badly injured animals not dead struggling to reach cover and live.

Her perception of chopper operators and Doc have changed forever.

If the public get to see exactly what wholesale slaughter on the hill looks like, thing might change, might have to start carrying a video camera again.

----------


## kiwijames

Ms Sage has picked a few fights this week. She has recently drafted a sloppy bill around fresh water fish. This has not gone down well with anglers as it leaves big holes around F&G management and Treaty settlements. 
The response from anglers does appear a LOT more sophisticated. Sir Geoffrey Palmer has drafted an insightful evaluation and anglers are making, on the whole, intelligent submissions. 
Hunters are almost embarrassing in comparison. Like we dont deserve to be heard. From the ability to link EVERYTHING to a 1080 conspiracy, whinging overemotive nonsense, using near unintelligible social media comments placed with stupid threats and innuendo. We sound like the Neanderthals some want to portray us as. 
IF your going to reply, think first. Ask someone to assist you if you need (Davey Hughes and Black watch put some good stuff on Facebook) and sound like someone who should be listened to.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Ms Sage has picked a few fights this week. She has recently drafted a sloppy bill around fresh water fish. This has not gone down well with anglers as it leaves big holes around F&G management and Treaty settlements. 
> The response from anglers does appear a LOT more sophisticated. Sir Geoffrey Palmer has drafted an insightful evaluation and anglers are making, on the whole, intelligent submissions. 
> Hunters are almost embarrassing in comparison. Like we dont deserve to be heard. From the ability to link EVERYTHING to a 1080 conspiracy, whinging overemotive nonsense, using near unintelligible social media comments placed with stupid threats and innuendo. We sound like the Neanderthals some want to portray us as. 
> IF your going to reply, think first. Ask someone to assist you if you need (Davey Hughes and Black watch put some good stuff on Facebook) and sound like someone who should be listened too.


The sad fact of the matter is the hunter democratic are generally not littericy scholars myself included,my typing generally confuses spell check, I use punctuation badly if at all,Even I struggle to read my handwriting let alone anybody else.
That doest make my or anybody elses opinion less correct or less valid just because we cant speak politician speak.

----------


## Projects

> If the public get to see exactly what wholesale slaughter on the hill looks like, thing might change, might have to start carrying a video camera again.


I was trying to find a video. @The Hunters Club had posted on facebook earlier this week. Basically showed a helicopter hovering in a basin bombing up a hill side where they were glassing into, there were Tahr the boys were watching from the other side of the valley. 
This clip just seemed ruthless what the chopper guys were doing, obviously no evidence who it was or who they worked for though. 

P.S great series so far Dave @The Hunters Club

----------


## timattalon

Writing to MPs is a start, and one that needs to be done. But the next step is a big one....

How do we make sure this lot are OUT at the next election?

I doubt we will be able to stop all support but a proper campaign showing the environmental damage that the green party is responsible for would be a start. And we know they will go to bed with labour first chance they get so do we try get the other mob in? The way I see it, we need to get the green support down low enough that they are of no real help to forming a govt. They are a minor party with a small support base. 

Secondly 

Point out to them that Tahr are on the International Union for Conservation of Nature list of animals that are NEAR ENDANGERED. This means 

_that may be considered threatened with extinction in the near future, although it does not currently qualify for the threatened status. The IUCN notes the importance of re-evaluating near-threatened taxa at appropriate intervals.

The rationale used for near-threatened taxa usually includes the criteria of vulnerable which are plausible or nearly met, such as reduction in numbers or range. Near-threatened species evaluated from 2001 onwards may also be ones which are dependent on conservation efforts to prevent their becoming threatened_

So wiping out Tahr in NZ is pushing this amazing animal far closer to extinction which is NOT what conservation is about. The largest threat to its extinction is mankind actions- Reducing habitats, Over hunting it is original enviroment do gooders with no idea using choppers. The Greens actively support 1080, do you think that when they learn that helicopter hunting doesn't work they might think to sprinkle green rain on the snow? 

They call themselves Greens, and 1080 is green. If we keep making that association the world will see that our green movement is one of the biggest polluters in our country.  If you see a picture of a green party emblem or person, make sure the next picture you show next to it is 1080 pellets....If you say something often enough people will believe it - Its called advertising.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> The sad fact of the matter is the hunter democratic are generally not littericy scholars myself included,my typing generally confuses spell check, I use punctuation badly if at all,Even I struggle to read my handwriting let alone anybody else.
> That doest make my or anybody elses opinion less correct or less valid just because we cant speak politician speak.


I have been in contact with the Game animal Council since July. They are now looking to appoint a person to act as liaison to act for them in a paid position. Bearing VC's comments in mind would Peter Dunn be the right person, considering he moved the Bill establishing the GAC ?.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Writing to MPs is a start, and one that needs to be done. But the next step is a big one....
> 
> How do we make sure this lot are OUT at the next election?
> 
> I doubt we will be able to stop all support but a proper campaign showing the environmental damage that the green party is responsible for would be a start. And we know they will go to bed with labour first chance they get so do we try get the other mob in? The way I see it, we need to get the green support down low enough that they are of no real help to forming a govt. They are a minor party with a small support base. 
> 
> Secondly 
> 
> Point out to them that Tahr are on the International Union for Conservation of Nature list of animals that are NEAR ENDANGERED. This means 
> ...


what would happen if we all joined the Greens and could then have a direct influence on Party Policy ??

----------


## hotsoup

I don't feel like this is the best approach. It has the #BAN1080 hysterical vibe written all over it

----------


## Boaraxa

> Writing to MPs is a start, and one that needs to be done. But the next step is a big one....
> 
> How do we make sure this lot are OUT at the next election?
> 
> I doubt we will be able to stop all support but a proper campaign showing the environmental damage that the green party is responsible for would be a start. And we know they will go to bed with labour first chance they get so do we try get the other mob in? The way I see it, we need to get the green support down low enough that they are of no real help to forming a govt. They are a minor party with a small support base. 
> 
> Secondly 
> 
> Point out to them that Tahr are on the International Union for Conservation of Nature list of animals that are NEAR ENDANGERED. This means 
> ...


MP’s email contacts:
Jacinda.Ardern@parliament.govt.nz
Simon.Bridges@parliament.govt.nz
Kelvin.Davis@parliament.govt.nz
Sarah.Dowie@parliament.govt.nz
Paul.Goldsmith@parliament.govt.nz
Nathan.Guy@parliament.govt.nz
Shane.Jones@parliament.govt.nz
Nikki.Kaye@parliament.govt.nz
Jennifer.Marcroft@parliament.govt.nz
Ron.Mark@parliament.govt.nz
Todd.McClay@parliament.govt.nz
Clayton.Mitchell@parliament.govt.nz

----------


## Russian 22.

> The sad fact of the matter is the hunter democratic are generally not littericy scholars myself included,my typing generally confuses spell check, I use punctuation badly if at all,Even I struggle to read my handwriting let alone anybody else.
> That doest make my or anybody elses opinion less correct or less valid just because we cant speak politician speak.


It doesn't make your submission any less valid. It just makes it fair easier to take it less seriously. 

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

----------


## Nathan F

Also for the sake of $130 a year download a subscription form and join NZDA if your not a member already. Even if youre like me and are not active at all within a branch lend your support. United we stand .

----------


## Kooza

> Also for the sake of $130 a year download a subscription form and join NZDA if your not a member already. Even if youre like me and are not active at all within a branch lend your support. United we stand .


Well said mate, join and give back.

----------


## Cordite

> The sad fact of the matter is the hunter democratic are generally not littericy scholars myself included,my typing generally confuses spell check, I use punctuation badly if at all,Even I struggle to read my handwriting let alone anybody else.
> That doest make my or anybody elses opinion less correct or less valid just because we cant speak politician speak.


 @veitnamcam

Typos and perfect grammar are irrelevant as long as we're respectful and polite.  I think that's the main point.

If someone is a proud snob picking on others' grammar THEY have the bigger problem.

----------


## Cordite

> I was trying to find a video. @The Hunters Club had posted on facebook earlier this week. Basically showed a helicopter hovering in a basin bombing up a hill side where they were glassing into, there were Tahr the boys were watching from the other side of the valley. 
> This clip just seemed ruthless what the chopper guys were doing, obviously no evidence who it was or who they worked for though. 
> 
> P.S great series so far Dave @The Hunters Club


  @Projects

Were you thinking of something like this?

----------


## Cordite

This image really got to me:

----------


## Tahr

> @Projects
> 
> Were you thinking of something like this?
> 
> Attachment 95467


It seems 1080 always has to be thrust into every conversation. Its a distraction from the core issue here.

The proposed cull is by helicopter shooting of very large numbers and without any consultation or recognition of the current Tahr (albeit dated) plan.

1080 has nothing to do with it.

----------


## 7mmwsm

> This image really got to me:
> 
> Attachment 95472


Where is the actual evidence that animal was killed by poison?
It looks like any other dead deer which has been exposed to the elements to me. I suspect that it's eyelids have been chewed by rats (not a very clear picture, but rats often go for the soft bits). 1080 bowls rats, so perhaps that area didn't get 1080.
When people want to believe a scenario, they will often fall for any crap that is put in front of them.

----------


## Lukeduncan

An email I have just received from NZ First. I imagine that it has been sent to all that emailed him. The first half of the email sounded pretty good to me until the part where they say "The established Himalayan Tahr Control Plan accounts for only 10,000 animals and the population is now estimated at 35,000. Because of this the Minister has asked the Department of Conservation to step up efforts. It will take work from all interested parties to bring the population back down to a sustainable level.
Urgent, additional intervention is necessary to protect alpine habitats and prevent further population explosion."
It seems that they still don't understand that the current tahr control plan is 25 years old and needs to be reviewed to meet the current situation. The tahr need culled but not to the extent of what Ms sage is saying.

----------


## chainsaw

> An email I have just received from NZ First. I imagine that it has been sent to all that emailed him. The first half of the email sounded pretty good to me until the part where they say "The established Himalayan Tahr Control Plan accounts for only 10,000 animals and the population is now estimated at 35,000. Because of this the Minister has asked the Department of Conservation to step up efforts. It will take work from all interested parties to bring the population back down to a sustainable level.
> Urgent, additional intervention is necessary to protect alpine habitats and prevent further population explosion."
> It seems that they still don't understand that the current tahr control plan is 25 years old and needs to be reviewed to meet the current situation. The tahr need culled but not to the extent of what Ms sage is saying. 
> 
> Attachment 95482


Shit that reads like a real kick in the teeth,  like NZ First have washed their hands of it ..... "you've been consulted, the population is 35,000, so piss off and get out of the way. The Minister has decided what to do ...".
We need some one with political clout and balls to point out that the actual count might only be 19 - 20,000.
And that the DOC estate has increased by xx,xxx HA since 1990 when the Tahr Plan was drawn up due to retirement of HC grazing.
Ya might have 10,000 extra Tahr but  100,000 ? 200,000 ? (some very large number) of sheep no longer grazing that high country tussock.

----------


## Woody

Jenny Marcroft: is that the bird that replaced Richard Prosser who Peters betrayed three weeks before the elections?

----------


## Cordite

> Where is the actual evidence that animal was killed by poison?
> It looks like any other dead deer which has been exposed to the elements to me. I suspect that it's eyelids have been chewed by rats (not a very clear picture, but rats often go for the soft bits). 1080 bowls rats, so perhaps that area didn't get 1080.
> When people want to believe a scenario, they will often fall for any crap that is put in front of them.


 @7mmwsm @kiwijames @Marty Henry @nak

I found it!  Actually from an old disturbing posting on this forum by @Rushy

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....0-poison-2684/

----------


## ethos

Poison is the wrong topic to side track this issue with. F and B and DoC will happily paint hunters as self interested poison chucking crazies, all day long.
But yes if you thought DoC were treating hunters in good faith AATH, WARO in the Ruahines, and a good old fashioned impromptu tahr cull should speak volumes on trust.
Hunting in NZ will survive this, many peoples faith in DoC may not.

----------


## doinit

> Where is the actual evidence that animal was killed by poison?
> It looks like any other dead deer which has been exposed to the elements to me. I suspect that it's eyelids have been chewed by rats (not a very clear picture, but rats often go for the soft bits). 1080 bowls rats, so perhaps that area didn't get 1080.
> When people want to believe a scenario, they will often fall for any crap that is put in front of them.


Yi right...rats killed it,seen it many times myself.They somehow manage to crawl in through the arse whole,eat their way through the gut and end up in the brain area. They chew off the eye lids on their way out.


Back to the topic in question eh..............................THAR.

----------


## 7mmwsm

> @7mmwsm @kiwijames @Marty Henry @nak
> 
> I found it!  Actually from an old disturbing posting on this forum by @Rushy
> 
> https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....0-poison-2684/


Well done. I might have to eat my words on this occasion.
But I honestly believe that if all the anti brigade put the same amount of effort into killing possums as they do protesting and complaining about 1080, there would be no need for 1080.
For the record, I'm neither for or against 1080. There are places where it doesn't need to be used, but there are places where it is the best option.

----------


## timattalon

> It seems 1080 always has to be thrust into every conversation. Its a distraction from the core issue here.
> 
> The proposed cull is by helicopter shooting of very large numbers and without any consultation or recognition of the current Tahr (albeit dated) plan.
> 
> 1080 has nothing to do with it.


Until the helicopter cull does not work and they decide green rain is justified.....

----------


## ethos

Yeah so 1080 is shit but this isn’t that thread.

----------


## Woody

Trappers arent paid $60+ per ha to trap possums and rats. This is the cost (at least) of 1080 operations. It is not a level playing field and if it were, as the anti 1080 people have been advocating for over a decade, there would be a thriving trapping industry in NZ instead of a wasteful poisoning debacle.

Same applies to Tahr. If aerial access and incentives were given to hunters to cull, along with recovery, there would not be a problem.

----------


## Rushy

> @7mmwsm @kiwijames @Marty Henry @nak
> 
> I found it!  Actually from an old disturbing posting on this forum by @Rushy
> 
> https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....0-poison-2684/


Bloody hell.  Have I really been banging on on this forum for over six years?

----------


## 7mmwsm

> Yi right...rats killed it,seen it many times myself.They somehow manage to crawl in through the arse whole,eat their way through the gut and end up in the brain area. They chew off the eye lids on their way out.
> 
> 
> Back to the topic in question eh..............................THAR.


Really? You've seen that?

----------


## Marty Henry

No but ive seen pigs go in the bung hole of dead cows. Back to the photo thanks  @Cordite looking at the rest of thread there is a strong probability that poison was the cause. 
Its interesting to see a 6 year old photo trotted out with the implication its a recent event.
And now back to tahr.
In docs proposed genocide are there provisions for recovery of the carcasses and what is there final destination pet food or human food chain. Or will tourists be treated to the sight of carcasses littering the landscape.

----------


## Tentman

Behind the current Minister's and DOC's (and many previous administrations) lies the dogma and ideology that "introduced species" are bad.

Maybe we need widen the public's eyes a bit and think beyond the current situation.

Are we (NZ inc.) really going to be able to shoot or poison our way past possums, gorse, mustelids, trout, rabbits, wilding pines, undaria, deer, tahr etc etc ??

What are the long term implications of blindly pursuing the current dogma??

I think we need (as hunters) to work to change this dogma in the eyes of the public.  It's  long term strategy but unless we have a proper conversation with all Kiwi's about all introduced species it will never end.

Ideologies like "pest free NZ" need to be challenged and reconsidered in various frames e.g. are they best use of resources (money etc), are they practical??  are they what we really want??

----------


## timattalon

> Behind the current Minister's and DOC's (and many previous administrations) lies the dogma and ideology that "introduced species" are bad.
> 
> Maybe we need widen the public's eyes a bit and think beyond the current situation.
> 
> Are we (NZ inc.) really going to be able to shoot or poison our way past possums, gorse, mustelids, trout, rabbits, wilding pines, undaria, deer, tahr etc etc ??
> 
> What are the long term implications of blindly pursuing the current dogma??
> 
> I think we need (as hunters) to work to change this dogma in the eyes of the public.  It's  long term strategy but unless we have a proper conversation with all Kiwi's about all introduced species it will never end.
> ...


I laugh at Pest Free NZ. Especially when if it was possible, the rabbits would already be gone as the Mackenzie Basin Farmers have been trying to eradicate rabbits for nearly a century with (dare I say it) limited success......There is no way any of their stated goals are even remotely feasible without significant and dangerous developments in technology (biological has the most potential- Potential for success and potential for misuse). There in lies the scary stuff.

Any tech that is developed that will be effective enough to bring their goal into feasibility is one step away from misuse into a bio weapon of mass destruction against humans. Anything that has any chance of success will be either Viral, or genetic based. And consider some of the implications; What if we develop a perfect viral possum control for eliminating every possum in NZ- All it takes is a moment of thoughtlessness / carelessness and it gets carried to Aussie and the valued native animal is then extinct. Dont say it wont happen. RCD got into NZ. White tails got here. Snakes have made the trip. What happens if this effective killing development jumps a species barrier rather than a geographical one- Native birds feeding on the infected possums and the virus jumps to Falcons or Moreporks- Extinction here we come...And for a worst case scenario, bear in mind the hard part is developing a bio / viral control that does the task, altering it to change targets is a much easier task- Imagine if someone decided humans were a better target............. Far fetched as it may sound, there are people out there who want to nuke, bomb and cause maximum carnage against their enemies and we would become their shopping basket. 

Its OK to have a goal, but for a goal to be any point, it needs to be achievable and as such their goal is a pipe dream. And for the amount they have budgeted for their project, it will barely cover the advertising bill let alone any actual effort.But they are so blinded by their dogma that they cannot see any real common sense or truth. (not that many of these people would understand common sense or be interested in the truth to start with....)

At the end of the day, here in NZ, our history is littered with people releasing things into the enviroment (with good intent) that have not been good ideas as it turns out. If we could turn back the clock, would we have released Rabbits to NZ? No. Would we have released mustelid to control them? No.  But they are here now and are part of the eco system for good or bad. Our best efforts are going to be preserving as much of the flora and fauna that was here and reduce the impact of human mistakes in our past. We cannot unmake these mistakes, but we can try to make this country a better place.

----------


## Steve123

What DOC fails to realize is that every time they cull/poison whatever an area, the pests just re-establish themselves. The only way to do this effectively is to expand on area's that are already fenced off. You can drop, helishoot and trap for ever but re-infestation will always occur. I live a few K's from the Hunua ranges and see rats running across the road in front of me at night all the time so the councils 1080 drop will do fuck all (unless you own an aerial spreading business).
They need to get real and accept that expanding existing sanctuaries is the only way that's going to save threatened native species.
All there doing now is shutting the door long after the horse has bolted.
They need to stop blowing there conservation cash on making NZ a "great walk' freedom camping shit fest nature, used to be wilderness disneyland, get out of the tourism business and get back to their core values

----------


## Moa Hunter

The Minister is diligently doing the job for which she has been appointed, albeit coming to it with an anti introduced animal bias. I wouldn't like that job with all the vested interest groups wanting different things. 
Any decisions that she make will be based on the information provided to her by DOC staff and it hasn't mattered who the Minister is the attitude towards Game animals by those entrenched staff has always been the same. The last Govt allowed WARO in the best trophy stag areas here in Canterbury for example. Has anyone got information about how DOC comes up with the population estimates ? I have seen the flight counts but don't know how DOC interpret these and then come up with such a wide variation (guess) with their population estimates.
Is there any good science to counter what DOC are saying or are they correct ?. I am sure that the Minister won't want to find out that the info she has been provided is wrong.

Can anyone tell me what the total annual harvest of Trophy bulls is ??
Why I am asking this is because I want to write to the Minister with some basic population modeling figures. 
There is a great opportunity right now to keep the right ratio of animals and hopefully keep everyone happy

In a totally managed Trophy herd:
For every 1000 eight year old trophy Bulls there will be 1000 bulls aged 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 coming up. 8000 in total.                                                         8000
To produce 1000 young bulls every year only 1333 nannies are required given that half will have twins. 150% kidding                                             1333
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Tot  9333
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      +(166)
                                                                                                                                                                                Harvest:    Shot 1000 Bulls              
A further 166 young nannies as 8% female replacements are required but 166 old nannies would be removed.                           1000 yearling nannies shot

In an unmanaged herd there would be approximately equal numbers of male and female, so for every 1000 trophy bulls harvested there will be 8000 bulls and 8000 nannies but we only need 1333 nannies to maintain our Bull herd and replacement  females. We have a surplus of nannies of 6667. This means that in an unmanaged herd like we have now, that for every Bull shot we should shoot 6.7 nannies in the first year to hold the population and that is if we are keeping bull numbers in check.

These figures are subject to some variables I know, but regardless they will give a good idea of the ratio of Bulls to Nannies that hunters should take and that the ratio of nannies that should be removed in the cull is much higher than the Doc figures.
Sorry about the figures not being lined up on this posting, each time I edit correct and save they get moved out of line again and makes it look like a balls up

----------


## Tentman

Execellent post Moa-Hunter, I've made a donation to the Tahr Foundation, they need to be applying thought and funding to ensure your thoughts on numbers can be scientifically supported.   I suspect the debate needs data on their browse effects at various population levels.  Good science is expensive, if we value our Tahr resource we all might have to "dig deep" to retain it.

----------


## Cigar

@Moa_Hunter I know bugger all about tahr but a bit about sheep, goats and cattle etc, and I have a couple of queries about your numbers (genuine questions, I'm not suggesting your numbers are wrong)
150% kidding - is this realistic? Taking into account this needs to be survival to adulthood. If so, no wonder numbers have increased!
A 8% replacement rate for nannies would mean you are expecting them to live (and successfully breed) to 12-13 years. Do they? This one doesn't really affect the overall picture, even if replacement rate was 20% you still remove as many old nannies as you leave young ones so no net change in numbers.
Cheers!  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Snowgrass

Not sure if these will work. For anyone wanting a bit of extra info on how the count was done. Have a couple of excel data sets for 2016 and 2017 but unsure how to add them in. 

Changes to Monitoring of Tahr Jan 2017 2.pdf
Item 2 - Tier 1 Himalayan tahr abundance monitoring protocol.pdf
Item 5 - Tahr density estimates from aerial surveys.pdf

----------


## Moa Hunter

> @Moa_Hunter I know bugger all about tahr but a bit about sheep, goats and cattle etc, and I have a couple of queries about your numbers (genuine questions, I'm not suggesting your numbers are wrong)
> 150% kidding - is this realistic? Taking into account this needs to be survival to adulthood. If so, no wonder numbers have increased!
> A 8% replacement rate for nannies would mean you are expecting them to live (and successfully breed) to 12-13 years. Do they? This one doesn't really affect the overall picture, even if replacement rate was 20% you still remove as many old nannies as you leave young ones so no net change in numbers.
> Cheers!


Cigar you are correct on the replacement rate for the nannies, it should be 1/8th (12.5 %) not 8%. Thanks for spotting that
My uncle was employed as a Tahr culler for the forest service and had also worked as a shepherd , he supplied the data and made the qualified observations on kidding. The 150% kidding is correct and as you say survival to adulthood etc has to be accounted for(losses), however these figures do give us a good baseline picture of how a managed herd needs to work.
Further observations from the Forest Service were that it was the mobs of nannies and juveniles that cause damage and erosion. To the extent that hill faces could be seen running with mud pouring off in a rainstorm all caused by Tahr. This was because the nanny groups occupied the lower vulnerable slopes and would congregate (camp) in an area even after they had chewed out all the Tussock, their hooves cutting up the soil and loess.
The Bulls on the other hand caused little erosion because they occupied the much higher rocky zone which was eroded by frost and storms but not vulnerable to animal damage. They also occur in much smaller groups.
Gordon Roberts (field officer for the cullers) glassing from the creek bed counted 1700 during a single walk up Carneys creek

----------


## planenutz

Just as an "outside the square" input - 

People bang on that tahr are bad and that we need to exterminate them in order to "protect the alpine environment" - as quoted from Winston Peters' reply to the recent barrage. But are they? Are they really bad for the alpine environment? I admit I'm not a scientist and, no, I've not studied in depth the upper reaches of the Mt. Cook National Park, but the walking I've done after tahr hasn't shown me an environment that's devastated by unwelcome pests. 

What if we assume for a minute that the research carried out to date has been completed by scientists in the paid employ of the government. Surely a most significant portion of any research must have been completed in this way. Or if we assume that the research carried out by non-government funded people were doing so with their own predetermined bias? Some may think me just a cynical old bastard and have no doubt, I am, but I've heard stories over the years of researchers being told to rewrite their summaries in order to tone down certain points of view - because payment for the work done depended on obtaining a favourable outcome to the cause. 

What if pro-hunting groups did their own research and released "clear proof" that the environment benefits from the animals that enhabit the area? Looking at my own back yard I see clear proof that the complete extermination of the wild goat herds that once roamed the area was foolhardy - the wilding pines and other invasive plants are taking over at an alarming rate. In 5 years we've gone from tussocks to 10 foot tall pines. My high school biology lessons taught me that animal numbers are directly proportional to food availability so if the numbers are high is that not a clear indication that the environment is healthy? 

If their range is limited - and clearly it is limited not only geographically but also by the tahr's preferred altitude band - then would it not make sense to define their limit of migration, exterminate outside those borders and allow nature and hunters to look after the rest? By my observation the number of hunters chasing tahr has increased significantly in the last 25 years and the resource is becoming more and more valuable as time goes on. With the advent of extreme sports we see a crossover where adrenaline and technology empowers people to be more comfortable hunting in the harsh Southern Alps. The numbers are going to balance out one way or another. 

Wholesale extermination to an idealistic value determined by biased reseach in an era of ignorance without reconsidering the possibility of new evidence can only lead to the fullfilment of an unbalanced argument. The dreamers win - those who believe in the fantasy that we can turn back time. 

Now that fake news is a "thing", maybe its time to denounce previous reseach as "fake news" and go out and prove tahr are good for the environment.

----------


## The Hunters Club

> What if pro-hunting groups did their own research and released "clear proof" that the environment benefits from the animals that enhabit the area?


Not exactly "clear proof", but this is perhaps a start - https://www.facebook.com/huntersclub...06267502/?t=69

Filmed in an area that had plenty of Tahr 12 months ago, probably not so many now though...

----------


## planenutz

Exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about @The_Hunters_Club , presenting evidence like this isn't in the best interests of tree-huggers who are trying to push for extermination so its easy to ignore it and instead take photos of chewed-off plants. I bet there are more examples out there too.

We need to present this as "proof of the benefits" - and who can say we're any less correct than those who would disagree?

----------


## kiwijames

Couple letters from me. Just have to sign and put in the envelope. 
Hope you all can do the same.

----------


## kiwijames

Take a look at the Give a Little page too.
Hunting and Fishing NZ donation of $10,000.00. You little beauty.

----------


## Tentman

I think it is critical that we raise funds (by the likes of the TF Give a Little page and membership of hunting organisations) to have ideas and observations like Moa Hunters and The Hunters club confirmed by robust science.  Science and hunting may seem like unusual bedfellows to many NZ hunters but overseas they go hand in hand - because they (overseas hunters) value their game animals.  Its about time we grew up (as a nation of hunters) and did the same.

We need "conversation" to resolve the divides that fracture and weaken our various hunting ideologies (e.g. meat versus trophy versus guided etc.)

There is absolutely no doubt that "money talks" when it comes to politics, and since hunters will never have voter numbers to change things, we are going to have to pay if we want to even maintain the status quo.

----------


## Projects

I'm sure everyone else who sent emails requesting information from the "Hon." Eugenie Sage got back their generic reply today as well. This was what i recieved as an attachment to the message.

 "Tēnā koe

On behalf of Hon Eugenie Sage, thank you for your email regarding Himalayan tahr. Please find a response from the Minister attached.

Ngā mihi"

----------


## Gibo

Yip same email I got.....piss weak

----------


## Shearer

Just found this on the DOC website and highlighted a few interesting points

How will the control operations be done?
A meeting with the Tahr Liaison Group was held in Christchurch on 29 August 2018. The following approach to reduce the tahr population has been proposed:

NZDA, Safari Club International and Tahr Interest Group work together with their members to remove at least 2,500 tahr from public conservation land and provide evidence and data.

WARO operators (who are concessioned) to remove 3,000 tahr from public conservation land and provide evidence and data.

*AATH operators to remove 1,500 tahr from public conservation land* using offsets and provide evidence and data. 

*Professional hunting guides to remove 500 tahr from public conservation land* and provide evidence and data.

DOC to remove 10,000 tahr from public conservation land and provide evidence and data (excluding Westland/Tai Poutini and Aoraki Mt Cook National Parks). 

About DOC's control operations:

DOC control operations will initially focus on Management Units 1 (Rakaia-Rangitata) and  3 (Gammack-Two Thumb) before the breeding starts mid-November 2018. Control would then move onto the other management units through the year. The control operation will remove tahr from above 305 metres (1,000 feet) in these management units.
The 10,000 animals DOC will remove, will be made up of *3,000 male tahr* and 7,000 other tahr which will be a mix of nannies and juveniles (excluding animals removed from the Westland/Tai Poutini and Aoraki Mt Cook National Parks).
DOC control operations will target the highest density areas in the management units. 
DOC will not undertake control operations in any management units between 15 November 2018 and 15 January 2019. DOC will undertake control operations in the Northern and Southern Exclusion Zones and Risk Zones over this period and all tahr will be targeted in these zones as normal.
DOC will resume aerial control operations after 15 January 2019 as per the tactical plan if they have not achieved their target of 10,000 animals.
All tahr will be targeted in the Westland/Tai Poutini and Aoraki Mt Cook National Parks are per the 1993 Himalayan Tahr Control Plan.
DOC will stop control operations in the Wilderness Areas by 30 March 2019.
DOC will undertake control operations to recover any shortfall of animals not achieved by 1 May 2019.
How long will the control operations take?
Control operations will continue until the estimated number of tahr are below the maximum limit specified in the Himalayan Tahr Control Plan. The programme will be reviewed in April 2019.

Where have control operations taken place?
*DOC acknowledges the contributions made by recreational hunters. For hunters that are planning to go tahr hunting on public conservation land, DOC will be posting the following information on its website, so you can make an informed decision on where you would like to go hunting:*

Tahr sightings maps: The information on this page will show where tahr have been seen. There will be a map and supporting information showing the helicopter flightpath and the location of animal/s.
Tahr control maps: The information on this page will show where aerial control operations have occurred. There will be a map and supporting information showing the helicopter flightpath and the location of control work.
Ground control operations: The information on this page will have post trip reports on how many animals were removed as part of any authorised ground control operations on public conservation land.
Tahr ballot results: This information will be posted after the summer and winter tahr ballot periods have closed for the Hooker/Landsborough and Adams Wilderness Areas.
Tahr sightings maps
The maps below show helicopter flight paths and waypoints where animals were sighted.

The tables show the number of tahr sighted at each waypoint and the altitude.

Tahr sightings maps - Aoraki Mount Cook operation
Management Unit (MU)	Date of operation	Maps	Tahr sightings information
 	16  21 June 2018	Overview map (PDF, 1,361) (opens in new window)	 
MU-5	16 June 2018	Lower Ben Ohau Range map (PDF, 1,192K) (opens in new window)	Lower Ben Ohau Range table (PDF, 81K) (opens in new window)
MU-5	17 June 2018	Mid Ben Ohau Range map  (PDF, 1,056K) (opens in new window)	Mid Ben Ohau Range table  (PDF, 81K) (opens in new window)
MU-5	18 June 2018	Hopkins River map (PDF, 1,205K) (opens in new window)	Hopkins River table  (PDF, 80K) (opens in new window)
MU-4b	18 June 2018	Hooker River map (PDF, 1,414K) (opens in new window)	Hooker River table  (PDF, 90K) (opens in new window)
MU-3	19 June 2018	Gamack Range map (PDF, 1,464K) (opens in new window)	Garmack Range table  (PDF, 95K) (opens in new window)
MU-4b	20 June 2018	Murchison River map  (PDF, 1,466K) (opens in new window)	Murchison River table  (PDF, 96K) (opens in new window)
MU-4b	21 June 2018	Godley River map (PDF, 1,331K) (opens in new window)	Godley River table  (PDF, 91K) (opens in new window)

Tahr sightings maps - Two Thumb Range operation
Map number	Date of operation	Maps	Tahr sightings information
 	5 August 2018	Overview map (PDF, 3000K) (opens in new window)	 
1	5 August 2018	Lower section of the Two Thumb Range map (PDF, 3,559K) (opens in new window)	Lower section of the Two Thumb Range table (PDF, 83K) (opens in new window)
2	5 August 2018	Mid section of the Two Thumb Range map (PDF, 3,582K) (opens in new window)	Mid section of the Two Thumb Range table (PDF, 94K) (opens in new window)
3	5 August 2018	Upper section of the Two Thumb Range map (PDF, 3,102K) (opens in new window)	Upper section of the Two Thumb Range table (PDF, 100K) (opens in new window)
4	5 August 2018	Headwaters of the Clyde River map (PDF, 684K) (opens in new window)	Headwaters of the Clyde River table (PDF, 91K) (opens in new window)
5	5 August 2018	Headwaters of the Lawrence River map (PDF, 685K) (opens in new window)	Headwaters of the Lawrence River table (PDF, 87K) (opens in new window)
Tahr control maps
The maps below show helicopter flight paths and waypoints where animals have been shot.

The tables show the number of tahr seen at each waypoint and the altitude.

Tahr control maps - Aoraki Mount Cook operation
Management Unit (MU)	Date of operation	Maps	Tahr control information
 	16-21 June 2018	Overview map (PDF, 1,361) (opens in new window)	 
MU-5	16 June 2018	Lower Ben Ohau Range map (PDF, 1,192K) (opens in new window)	Lower Ben Ohau Range table (PDF, 81K) (opens in new window)
MU-5	17 June 2018	Mid Ben Ohau Range map  (PDF, 1,056K) (opens in new window)	Mid Ben Ohau Range table  (PDF, 81K) (opens in new window)
MU-5	18 June 2018	Hopkins River map (PDF, 1,205K) (opens in new window)	Hopkins River table  (PDF, 80K) (opens in new window)
MU-4b	18 June 2018	Hooker River map (PDF, 1,414K) (opens in new window)	Hooker River table  (PDF, 90K) (opens in new window)
MU-3	19 June 2018	Gamack Range map (PDF, 1,464K) (opens in new window)	Garmack Range table  (PDF, 95K) (opens in new window)
MU-4b	20 June 2018	Murchison River map  (PDF, 1,466K) (opens in new window)	Murchison River table  (PDF, 96K) (opens in new window)
MU-4b	21 June 2018	Godley River map (PDF, 1,331K) (opens in new window)	Godley River table  (PDF, 91K) (opens in new window)
Viewing files on this page
If you can't view these files contact us to request another format. About our files.



The main things I got from that are that between AATH, guides and DOC, they will be removing 5000 "trophy" animals from DOC land.
We can't complain about a lack of information about the process.
Here is a link to the site if you want to view the maps.
https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-re...ol-operations/

----------


## Maxx

> I'm sure everyone else who sent emails requesting information from the "Hon." Eugenie Sage got back their generic reply today as well. This was what i recieved as an attachment to the message.
> 
>  "Tēnā koe
> 
> On behalf of Hon Eugenie Sage, thank you for your email regarding Himalayan tahr. Please find a response from the Minister attached.
> 
> Ngā mihi"
> 
> Attachment 95624
> Attachment 95625



I wonder if there is any significance in the  statement: 

_"...even after this control work is done there will still be ample tahr to sustain guided tahr hunting and tourist ventures."_ 

No reference to recreational hunting?

----------


## McNotty

https://www.facebook.com/hunting.com...6277576141197/

I wonder if this is someone trying to make a quick buck off the back of the proposed cull? Hate to imagine the amount of gut/arse shot animals running round after a rookie chopper shooter has had a go.

----------


## Projects

This Tahr Liason Group? Who're they, iwi and 11 stakeholder representatives. Iwi i understand being in the group for any cultural concerns with regard to Tahr, cannot see that an issue. But, the 11 stakeholders, there should be some sort of expertise or common sense in these 11 people. Who're these 11?

----------


## Snowgrass

> I wonder if there is any significance in the  statement: 
> 
> _"...even after this control work is done there will still be ample tahr to sustain guided tahr hunting and tourist ventures."_ 
> 
> No reference to recreational hunting?


I wondered the same thing as soon as I read it.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Just found this on the DOC website and highlighted a few interesting points
> 
> How will the control operations be done?
> A meeting with the Tahr Liaison Group was held in Christchurch on 29 August 2018. The following approach to reduce the tahr population has been proposed:
> 
> NZDA, Safari Club International and Tahr Interest Group work together with their members to remove at least 2,500 tahr from public conservation land and provide evidence and data.
> 
> WARO operators (who are concessioned) to remove 3,000 tahr from public conservation land and provide evidence and data.
> 
> ...


From a population of ESTIMATED at 35,600 it is NOT POSSIBLE to have 5000 "Trophy" animals espesially when the current female bias is observed.

----------


## Tentman

> https://www.facebook.com/hunting.com...6277576141197/
> 
> I wonder if this is someone trying to make a quick buck off the back of the proposed cull? Hate to imagine the amount of gut/arse shot animals running round after a rookie chopper shooter has had a go.


Bloody awful, and we need Kiwi's to be aware of this sort of commercialization too.  I posted this up on their page but I doubt it'll stay long . . . 

"This is an appalling commercialization of our NZ game animals, bad enough that they have to be culled, completely unacceptable that it is offered as a moneymaking venture called "hunting". To anyone considering this be assured you will be seen as a pariah in NZ hunting circles and hopefully tossed head first out of any pub in the land. Don't be fooled into paying for this is you call yourself a hunter. I (and most anybody on the NZ Hunting and Fishing Forum) will gladly point you in the right direction to hunt (or cull) our game if you wish."

----------


## Tentman

Its also a puzzle as to how "all of a sudden" Tahr have become a problem, one would assume from their website DOC are supposed to have ongoing control plans, yet numbers have climbed "out of control" - so have they not being doing their jobs the last few years, perhaps someone needs the sack to wake the rest up.  In any case as with all matters requiring investigation I suggest the Foundation gets someone onto "following the money" as I suspect either DOC budgets or lobbying money will tell us a story.

----------


## 257weatherby

> This Tahr Liason Group? Who're they, iwi and 11 stakeholder representatives. Iwi i understand being in the group for any cultural concerns with regard to Tahr, cannot see that an issue. But, the 11 stakeholders, there should be some sort of expertise or common sense in these 11 people. Who're these 11?


We need everybody in this fight, but what the fuck has any "iwi" got to do with Tahr on "cultural grounds?

----------


## Shearer

> From a population of ESTIMATED at 35,600 it is NOT POSSIBLE to have 5000 "Trophy" animals espesially when the current female bias is observed.


I referred to them as "trophy animals" because that is what guides and AATH will be targeting. 2000 of them, whether they exist or not. They will not be out there killing nannies and kids. DOC are targeting another 3000 bulls (future trophies) and 7000 "other" which will no doubt include young bulls.
The figure of 35,600 was the median of the survey figures which concluded (with 95% statistical certainty) there were between 17,347 and 53,920 tahr on DOC land. A pretty big spread, and the author of the study said there was a large margin of error. After having read it, I couldn't see a better or more impartial way of doing it.

----------


## tikka

> Its also a puzzle as to how "all of a sudden" Tahr have become a problem, one would assume from their website DOC are supposed to have ongoing control plans, yet numbers have climbed "out of control" - so have they not being doing their jobs the last few years, perhaps someone needs the sack to wake the rest up.  In any case as with all matters requiring investigation I suggest the Foundation gets someone onto "following the money" as I suspect either DOC budgets or lobbying money will tell us a story.


I’m probably to share the blame, I’ve seen mobs of nanny’s 30s and 40s when bull hunting and only shot a couple of nanny’s on the trip out. I should of came back on a nanny meat but I shoot enough deer too keep me going. 
Numbers can build up e.g 10,000 nanny’s having kids,  one third being bulls so that’s 7,000 nanny’s, so every three years your numbers tripled in a best case scenario. Weather for the flying assessment on numbers could have been better than previous years or the helo operators putting DOC into high density numbers to line there own pockets in a extended cull operations? It’s happened in the past.

----------


## Cigar

> Numbers can build up e.g 10,000 nanny’s having kids,  one third being bulls so that’s 7,000 nanny’s, so every three years your numbers tripled in a best case scenario. Weather for the flying assessment on numbers could have been better than previous years or the helo operators putting DOC into high density numbers to line there own pockets in a extended cull operations? It’s happened in the past.


One third of kids born being bull's? Surely it's half male half female, like all other mammals (and most other animals).

----------


## Russian 22.

> Couple letters from me. Just have to sign and put in the envelope. 
> Hope you all can do the same.


What sort of things did you put in the letter's? Not sure what to put in them. But I know that they're the best way as they have to reply in kind.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

----------


## Sideshow

They look really good there @Russian 22. Force the buggers to do some work  :Thumbsup: 
For future tv interviews go in hard if she is only going to dismiss it out of hand!

----------


## Russian 22.

> They look really good there @Russian 22. Force the buggers to do some work 
> For future tv interviews go in hard if she is only going to dismiss it out of hand!


Not me yet hahaha. Planning on doing something other than donating.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

----------


## Kooza

> What sort of things did you put in the letter's? Not sure what to put in them. But I know that they're the best way as they have to reply in kind.
> 
> Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk



Awesome, sent some myself. Postage is free to parliament (well I guess we pay for it in tax money).

----------


## Sideshow

> We need everybody in this fight, but what the fuck has any "iwi" got to do with Tahr on "cultural grounds?


Well didn't you know @257weatherby that Thar guided  Hōne Heke over the southern alps when he was down there rounding up the southern Maori to take them north for a feed.....oh them being the ones being eaten  :Zomg:

----------


## outdoorlad

> https://www.facebook.com/hunting.com...6277576141197/
> 
> I wonder if this is someone trying to make a quick buck off the back of the proposed cull? Hate to imagine the amount of gut/arse shot animals running round after a rookie chopper shooter has had a go.



Piss poor shooting, not a good look and I wonder if he was licensed to be using an E Cat rifle?

----------


## Russian 22.

> Piss poor shooting, not a good look and I wonder if he was licensed to be using an E Cat rifle?


Probably an Aussie lol. So hell no.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

----------


## Reindeer

> Piss poor shooting, not a good look and I wonder if he was licensed to be using an E Cat rifle?


I think someone may have got the message?

"_This content is unavailable_"

----------


## indigo1

I'm just going to leave this here as my first post on the site. Greg Duley says it better than anyone could and backed up by actual facts - well done sir

https://www.facebook.com/nztahrfound...8868209477422/

----------


## Micky Duck

257weatherby me ol bud......the "iwi" in this context as I read it could be ngati Kiwi......or ngati NZHS for that matter...iwi being group of people/large family    we the large group of people who like to hunt thar...... tis a shit sammie of a situation we are finding ourselves in.

----------


## 257weatherby

> 257weatherby me ol bud......the "iwi" in this context as I read it could be ngati Kiwi......or ngati NZHS for that matter...iwi being group of people/large family    we the large group of people who like to hunt thar...... tis a shit sammie of a situation we are finding ourselves in.


Context is sometimes difficult to judge, tell you this though: getting out in the hills with a rifle and putting meat in the pot and sweat on the brow, is what keeps me sane, and I'll bet I'm not the only one.......

----------


## Bos

Yea well done to Greg and Willie Duley, and to the idea of the *Give A Little fund*.
Wouldnt be unreasonable to suggest that everyone who supports this forum should support that fund as well, imho

----------


## Sideshow

> I'm just going to leave this here as my first post on the site. Greg Duley says it better than anyone could and backed up by actual facts - well done sir
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/nztahrfound...8868209477422/


Top first post there @indigo1

----------


## Malhunting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6XNVKcfnzY

----------


## Tentman

Thanks for the video of Question Time.

I think as hunters we have to be very careful how we play this.  Sarah Dowie is my local MP and she is an underwhelming representative I have to say, basically I wouldn't trust her one bit and her judgement on a whole raft of local stuff has been suspect.  The petition she has put up is very badly worded and extremely self serving (an email capture thing for National - WTF).

As Winnie pointed out in the video (and illustrates by his rant), political parties of all colours have and will continue to punt hunters/hunting all over the place - witness how hard it was to get the GAC over the line.

While the political battle is essential, the war will only be won if we have a wider public who understand the basic issues and help keep the politicians in check.

----------


## chainsaw

Aye, it could be seen as self serving by the Nats ... but we (hunters) might as well have at least one political party batting for us.  
And Winnie has made an artform out of promising voters all sorts of things to get himself elected in order to maintain his lifestyle, bank balance & ego ..... and NEVER delivering.
Was NZ First not promising to do something for hunters & 1080 in the lead up to last election ??   :ORLY:

----------


## Shearer

I think it is important that we don't get confused about what we are trying to achieve.
I am not fighting conservation or conservationists. I want our forests and waterways protected and our land protected from exploitation.
What I also want is recognition of our game species as a valuable resource to be managed responsibly and be part of that conservation process irrespective of what government or party is in power. The Tahr management plan has been in place since 1992? and no government since then has actively managed or monitored it or, as far as I can see, made any attempt to change the status of our game herds.

----------


## JoshC

> I think it is important that we don't get confused about what we are trying to achieve.
> I am not fighting conservation or conservationists. I want our forests and waterways protected and our land protected from exploitation.
> What I also want is recognition of our game species as a valuable resource to be managed responsibly and be part of that conservation process irrespective of what government or party is in power. The Tahr management plan has been in place since 1992? and no government since then has actively managed or monitored it or, as far as I can see, made any attempt to change the status of our game herds.


The same as what the majority of us want. The 25 year old management plan needs updating with sound science backing. A lot has changed in the hunting industry since then.

----------


## Malhunting

Its been stopped for now!
https://www.facebook.com/HamishWalke...830087?__xts__

----------


## Lukeduncan

https://www.national.org.nz/minister..._her_tahr_hunt

Good start

----------


## planenutz

Excellent news. I'd like to say common sense has won but clearly thats not the case.

Now the onus is on those holding all our donations to:
1. Consult with us, the recreational and professional hunters who have deep feelings on the subject, and;
2. Take our voice to government, then;
3. Provide clear feedback to the hunting community on what they have achieved with our money.

----------


## Sideshow

It's not over yet. We need to keep the pressure on and make sure she our anybody else can't come creeping back in at a latter date to try the same thing.

----------


## outdoorlad

Yes she bloody well knows she hasn’t consulted properly and wouldn’t have faired to well in court, now we need to make sure there is proper consultation not a quick slap hazard one lime they did with the Waro.

----------


## indigo1

Anyone else notice the distinct lack of outrage from the #vegan #animalrightsforgaywhales #animalstoo crowd? I'd have thought organisations like Safe would be harping on about the welfare of the animals and that they should have the same rights as humans etc. etc. just shows how political and sincere those stupid little activists are.

----------


## Cigar

> Anyone else notice the distinct lack of outrage from the #vegan #animalrightsforgaywhales #animalstoo crowd? I'd have thought organisations like Safe would be harping on about the welfare of the animals and that they should have the same rights as humans etc. etc. just shows how political and sincere those stupid little activists are.


I noticed it but it might be a good thing.
If they were jumping up and down about DOC shooting tahr, they would probably jump and down about us hunters doing pretty much exactly the same thing.

----------


## oldboy

24-9-2018 Letter from Hon Eugenie Sage regarding Himalayan tahr.pdf Recieved this from her ladyship

----------


## Micky Duck

oldboy.....on the face of it that ALMOST reads as being reasonable...and note it says to cull 10,000 NOT cull down to 10,000......interesting difference,it also DOESNT take animals on leasehold or private land into the total figure...again most interesting......

----------


## Boaraxa

> oldboy.....on the face of it that ALMOST reads as being reasonable...and note it says to cull 10,000 NOT cull down to 10,000......interesting difference,it also DOESNT take animals on leasehold or private land into the total figure...again most interesting......


Notice she doesn't mention the "additional Figure to be culled " . I think it equated to 7.5k

----------


## GravelBen

> The 25 year old management plan needs updating with sound science backing.


Definitely. I haven't heard anything much about scientific backing for the cull, just sweeping general comments like 'tahr damage vegetation' and 'too many tahr'.

I was also thinking, DOC have acquired (through purchase and tenure review etc) a heap more high country land since that time - has anyone estimated what the population density of the 10,000 tahr in the old plan was, and how many more tahr would fit the same density over the increased land area?

----------


## Tentman

@GravelBen @JoshC - I couldn't agree more, I hope the Tahr Foundation will apply our donations to just this.

Before it got going I compared the kill figures (nearly 3000 Tahr in 6 flying days) for the June flights DOC posted on their website - its obvious there are likely very large variations in Tahr density.  I've OIA'd them to find out the actual flying hours and costs, and will extend my request to find out the area of land added to the Conservation estate within the Tahr range

----------


## Boaraxa

https://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-ti...ahr-cull-start

----------


## r87mm

I've donated and signed the petition but feel it is only a stop gap measure. I can't lobby my local mp as he was the minister of conservation and supported 1080 and I believe he's passed his use by date. If you read what I earlier posted that was told to me by a non hunter you would think it's totally extreme and really not in any way a good idea. But if you look at the under lying message it has more meaning. It took me a while to work it out but this is my take on what was trying to be said. You can petition , protest , go to court but you will never win. You are fighting a battle where the enemy has set the rules. Doc put a stop to removing bird carcasses as no body no evidence. They openly admit to killing protected species but are never prosecuted. Their scientists agree with what they are doing but independent ones find very different results. In essence the rules and laws were written to protect themselves and give them the right to do what they want without accountability from the general public first and foremost. Just because they have to consult doesn't mean they have to listen or take on board anyone's opinions or concerns. It just draws the process out a little. We are trying to beat them on their ground by their rules and wonder why it doesn't work. We need to to find another way to fight on our terms and remove their home ground advantage. I'm not sure how to do this but we really need a few politicians(one isn't enough) form a major party on our side and some how make them commit very publicly often and loud ( and us to them) so they can't wiggle out when the push comes to shove and they need to step up. Then get the rules changed to a level playing field for the future. Just my 2 cents worth

----------


## Sideshow

Yes but this issue I feel is giving us a foot in the door.
We need to lobby National as they have taken up the batten. So nat mp you say you support us?
Ok then if we vote for you what are you going to do when/if you get in power.....how about take our game animals of the pest list!
There wording 20000 of us hunt. You what our votes. Then let's see some election promises and that needs to be number one!
Once you remove that pest word from our big game animals we can start to move forward and manage our resources more effectively.
Till then we're just pawns in the big game. 
But if we can remove that word pest... we will have a foot in the door, you will have Mrs Sag to thank for it :Grin:

----------


## Nick-D

> Definitely. I haven't heard anything much about scientific backing for the cull, just sweeping general comments like 'tahr damage vegetation' and 'too many tahr'.
> 
> I was also thinking, DOC have acquired (through purchase and tenure review etc) a heap more high country land since that time - has anyone estimated what the population density of the 10,000 tahr in the old plan was, and how many more tahr would fit the same density over the increased land area?


There isn't any. It's an arbitrary number. In the 1996 study, I'll pull the excerpt later, it states there is no correlation between the population density indices set in the htcp and the health and recovery of the various tussocks.

The last study(that I can find) was completed in 2014 and show a very small decline in overall tussock health. This would logically conclude that we need to cull a small number of tahr in specific areas

There hasn't been any study done that I can see on the effect of that on any other species than tussock. It says as much in the 2014 study.

That's why her rhetoric is so vehemently set on the htcp number as she knows full well there isn't any scientific backing to support the large numbers proposed in the cull.
I'm not generally pre disposed to assuming conspiracy or deliberate malintent, but given the rhetoric and deliberate selection of language, it seems very much like it really is a case of personal agenda over science based conservation

----------


## r87mm

True but I'd like to see a more robust form of commitment rather than an election promise as these are often broken and battens dropped. I would like to see a full independent inquiry into doc and it's practices. Like it's removal of huts, wire bridges , 1080.As some of those would be against the health and safety act which doesn't appear to apply to local and central government.  Charges for huts and other activity's on our land. I pay tax each week and part of that goes to doc to up keep tracks and huts etc . Then when I want to use said huts I pay again. 
Why not increase the price for tourists to fully subsidize our use of them? Bit like going out for dinner ordering your meal and paying for it and then getting charged again when you want to eat it. If doc is in inefficient thats not my problem and like a leaking bucket, water will keep running out the holes no matter how much you put in it until the leaks are fixed. Not saying doc don't do a lot of good but imo they are doing a lot of the opposite as well and this needs to be addressed. Trouble is they are the ones who advice the ministers and governments. Again their rules. You don't see the police let alleged criminals investigate themselves as everyone knows what the out come would be. Until heads roll high up in doc and there's some sort of outside independent review by experts we stay fighting with both arms tied behind our backs

----------


## Sideshow

Who every her 2IC is there doing a good job on the spin front. 
Let's see how they answer those questions on Tuesday.

----------


## time out

I have done my give a little $50 - hope they use it well

----------


## Projects

A Post from Facebook this morning




> Hunting lobby wins concessions over tahr cull.
> 
> This was the Radio NZ headline this morning. The minister seems to have announced the outcome of yesterdays meeting, stating there will only be 6,000 tahr culled this year, plus up to another 4000 next year if needed. Basically DoC and the minster appear to have accepted the Game Animal Councils well thought out and whole of hunting sector consulted tahr management plan. It was a very constructive meeting yesterday and common sense appears to have prevailed. Doc in particular were very constructive and appeared to only want a workable and sensible outcome.
> 
> We posted up the link to the GAC plan a couple of days ago, but here are the most important points, as agreed upon by all of the hunting sector:
> 
> Initial cull before mid-November kid drop of 6000 targeting the hard to get at and highest density areas and leaving the most accessible areas for recreational hunters.
> 
> Any remainder to make up the initial 6000 to be taken in April 2019 so as to not early-wean any kids and stunt their growth in that most important first year.
> ...

----------


## chainsaw

thanks for the update - damn good outcome given what Sage was intending to do.  I guess we should keep the cork in the champagne bottle or cap on the rum until we see it in writing.
Creating a robust scientific data based approach is critical for all our game animals.  The battle for the Tahr is a win & getting them to HOSI status would be brilliant. But same needs to happen for trophy red stag herds with top genetics, Wapiti, Whitetail, Sika, etc.
So if one proves to be an easy win then the "spare" funds donated need to flow to these other worthy causes.

----------


## Sarvo

For those that want to read all the comments flowing in 

https://www.facebook.com/nztahrfound...2%3A%22O%22%7D

----------


## Moa Hunter

I suggest to keep in the back of our minds that if there is in-fact Ministerial sign off of a new Tahr management plan as we have read above, then we should each write to the Minister thanking her for showing wisdom and leadership in this matter. Nothing wrong with showing some appreciation to a Minister who has listened and wisely considered all sides and possibly set aside their own personal views. This bodes well for a sensible game hunting future.

----------


## Tentman

> I suggest to keep in the back of our minds that if there is in-fact Ministerial sign off of a new Tahr management plan as we have read above, then we should each write to the Minister thanking her for showing wisdom and leadership in this matter. Nothing wrong with showing some appreciation to a Minister who has listened and wisely considered all sides and possibly set aside their own personal views. This bodes well for a sensible game hunting future.


I agree and done, with a request that this be the beginning of DOC endeavouring to build a more mutually satisfying arrangement with hunters.

----------


## Mooseman

That has to be a great outcome at least they are listening and not just going ahead with no real direction. Well done to all the people backing this and hopefully we will have a new ,updated and workable management plan that will work for everyone.

----------


## Sideshow

We still need to get this in writing if it's not done already!
Also we need to plan so that this dose not sneak up on us again!
Last of all let's try and work this around onto other big game species. Then if we have all of this we can take this to parliament and get pest taken from the wording. Replaced by management and resource! :Thumbsup:

----------


## Sideshow

Oh and if this is the end result top one, to all involved  :Thumbsup:

----------


## mikee

While on the face of it it looks like a good win.................................the cynical part of me would suggest this was the outcome that was desired all along 

Ask for twice as much as you think you will get,  get those common folks all riled up and then it looks like you caved in to thier pressure and you still get what you wanted or Win-Win as the politicians would say.

----------


## oraki

> While on the face of it it looks like a good win.................................the cynical part of me would suggest this was the outcome that was desired all along 
> 
> Ask for twice as much as you think you will get,  get those common folks all riled up and then it looks like you caved in to thier pressure and you still get what you wanted or Win-Win as the politicians would say.


With you on that. Also wondering what else they're slipping through while everyone's looking over this way. Mr Cahill's been quiet lately....

----------


## hunt08

Good news alright but the guys that go hunt these better start shooting a few more for meat on the way out instead of just going for the Bulls or all this will be wasted if we can't keep nbs in check I'd love to come down to shot some but can't make it down

----------


## veitnamcam

I am sure Eugene called us Cunters this morning on breakfast, Freudian slip perhaps .

----------


## gonetropo

eugenie backing down will end up as famous as chamberlain holding up a letter signed by hitler saying everything is ok

----------


## time out

Not sure this can be related to the Tahr issues - but interesting to see how 150 CEOs rate the performance of Cabinet Ministers on their ministerial portfolio performance over the past year on a 1-5 scale, where 1 = not 
impressive and 5 = very impressive.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/...ectid=12135839

While Ministers outside Cabinet were not rated in this year's survey, a number of bosses had views. -Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage was slammed as a "real problem" — "Zero out of ten and only interested in a small minority of constituents.

----------


## duckdog

Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage was slammed as a "real problem" — "Zero out of ten and only interested in a small minority of constituents.

"She will have a negative impact on this Govt long term," said a construction boss. "This was a very bad and naïve appointment — a life member of Forest and Bird as Minister of Conservation?"

----------


## doinit

I think I'm in love with her :On Fire:

----------


## Moa Hunter

https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rc...C0IvBZdfZAnhIf
This is a link to a Ted Talk on desertification. Why has Moa posted that everyone thinks ?? Well I'll tell you, this talk shows how we can actually use wild animal grazing to repair the historical damage done to the South Island high country by sheep grazing. Because of the way in which Bull Tahr migrate they can work with nature to support revegetation of the denuded hills. Watch the video, go hunting and look at the ground under your feet - I mean the bare soil between the plants not the plants themselves and consider how animals are or are not affecting a given area. Looking into my crystal ball, this information will be very powerful to us in the future.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Good news alright but the guys that go hunt these better start shooting a few more for meat on the way out instead of just going for the Bulls or all this will be wasted if we can't keep nbs in check I'd love to come down to shot some but can't make it down


Shoot 7 nannies for each Bull

----------


## Divingmad

I would still like to know who eventually supplies the ammo and the helicopter operators involved, it will help to make informed decisions about who I support in the future.

----------


## Russian 22.

> I would still like to know who eventually supplies the ammo and the helicopter operators involved, it will help to make informed decisions about who I support in the future.


Probably an overseas distributor.

I too would like to know about the chopper companies. I am planning a trip and I won't use anyone who does the cull.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

----------


## Brian

I was told they wont use local operators because they leave pockets of thar for their helihunting.
Doc shooters and a doc observer on board to make sure the lot get shot.
Tungstan 223 at $5 each so no ricochets to hit the rotors.

----------


## Boaraxa

2 October  2018

Department  of  Conservation  

Attention:  Andy  Roberts  

By  Email



New  Zealand  Deerstalkers  Association  

Attention  Bill  OLeary  

By  Email

Dear  Messrs Roberts  and  OLeary  

TAHR  LIAISON  MEETING  

1.

We  are  writing  following  the  Tahr  Liaison  Group  meeting  yesterday.  We  were  troubled and  concerned  by  media  reports  that an agreement  had  been  reached  on  a  draft  operational  plan.  
In  particular,Radio  NZ  reported  that:  
1
Former  president  of  the  Deerstalkers  Association  Bill  O'Leary  told  RNZ  that  a  draft  operational  plan  was  agreed  on  at  the  meeting  which  would  reduce  the  number  of  tahr  to  be  killed  -but  he  did  not  give  a  number.
2.
This  is  inaccurate.  Nothing  that  could  be  described  as  a  draft  operation  plan  was  put  to  the meeting.  The  scribbled  notes  on the  whiteboard  could  not  properly be  described  a  draft  plan.  
3.
In  any  event, we  made  it  clear  that Forest  &  Birds  agreement  to  any  draft  operational  plan is
conditional  on  a  clear  undertaking  that  the Himalayan  Tahr  Control  Plan (the  plan) plan  would  be implemented.  
This  was  not  present  in  the  scribbled  notes  and  Mr  Roberts  made  it  clear  that  Forest  &Birds  position  
was  understood  and  indicated  that  this  would  be  the  subject  of consideration  over  the  coming  days,  including  discussions  with  us.
4.
It  is  also  disappointing  that  such  disinformation  makes  its  way  into  the  media.  Many attendees at  the  meeting  commented  on  the  productive  and  positive  nature  of  the  discussions.  This  is  
undermined  when  one  of  the  participants  seeks  to  write  into  stone  preliminary  views  of  the group  which  were  the  subject  of  serious  reservations  by  one  of  the  parties. This  undermines  any trust  that  might  be  built  between  participants.
5.
The  only  option  we  have  is  to  publicly  respond  to  such  disinformation,  which  is  likely  to further undermine  
the  trust  and  confidence  that  has  built  up  as  the  result  of  productive  meetings  like yesterday.
Royal  Forest  and  Bird  Protection
6.
In  our  view  the  legal  position  is  clear  and  unambiguous.  The plan is  a  wild  animal  control  plan  
under  section  5(1)(d)  of  the  Wild  Animal  Control  Act  1977.  The  Minister  is  required  to  manage tahr  in  accordance  with  this  plan.  
5B  Management  of  wild  animals
The  Minister  shall  administer  and  manage  wild  animals  in  accordance  with(a)  statements  of  general  policy  under section  5(1) (ca);  and (b)  wild  animal  control  plans  under section  5(1) (d) ; and (c)  conservation  management  strategies.
7.
The  reported  outcome  of  6,000  tahr  being  culled  immediately  with  a  commitment to further 10,000  by  the  end  of  July,does  not  implement  the  plan.  
Tahr  will  not  be  being  managed  in accordance  with  the  plan.
8.
The key  elements  of  the  plan  from  our  perspective  are: a.the  10,000  limit;
b.zero  density  in  National Parks; and
c.the  exclusion  zones.  
9.
For  the  avoidance  of  any  doubt,  we  reiterate  the  view  expressed  at  the  meeting  yesterday.  
Nothing  has  been  agreed  by Forest  &  Bird.  We  do  not  necessarily  oppose  the 6,000/10,000 proposal  reported  in  the  media  but  any  agreement  is  condition  on: a. a  clear  undertaking  by  the  Minister  and  Department  that  the  plan  will  be implemented;  and
b. detail  of  how  this  will  be achieved.  
10.
There  has  been  a  suggestion  that  the  plan  includes  some  form  of  adaptive  management. This is not  the case. If  there  is  to  be  any  change  to  the key  matters  set  out  in  paragraph  8  above,  this needs  to  be  done  by  amending  the  plan.    
At  the  current time  there  is not enough information available for  proper  decision to be made. Yours sincerely, Peter  Anderson  
Nicky  Snoyink  

General  Counsel  

Canterbury  West  Coast  Regional  Manager

----------


## Russian 22.

Good luck getting forest and bird to agree to anything reasonable.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

----------


## veitnamcam

> I was told they wont use local operators because they leave pockets of thar for their helihunting.
> Doc shooters and a doc observer on board to make sure the lot get shot.
> *Tungstan* 223 at $5 each so no ricochets to hit the rotors.


How does that work? I would have thought Tungsten being really quite hard would ricochet like a barstard! Also be not very humane if a non expanding bullet.

----------


## chainsaw

thanks @Boaraxa that quoted position of F&B spells out exactly where Sage is getting fed her "logic (& legal advice) from".  It also shows F&B are hell bent on totally undermining any dialog & compromise  .... or use of relevant  current science or data.
They are clinging to this 25 year old outdated 1993 Tahr Plan.   So as various others have stated above we need a clear and unequivocal statement from the minister as to exactly what/when/how the cull will proceed.
And even more importantly we need to insist on quality science and data (proving if Tahr above certain densities do actually cause any harm) as a PRE-CONDITION for any further cull beyond the 5- 6000 Sage talked about. At that data should then be used to scrap this farkn stupid 1993 piece of shit info that F&B are clinging on to.

----------


## Brian

> How does that work? I would have thought Tungsten being really quite hard would ricochet like a barstard! Also be not very humane if a non expanding bullet.


He said its supposed to shatter when it hits rock. Be hard on barrels but I guess it could be copper coated.
I'd never heard of them before.

----------


## Friwi

Probably copper jacket filled with compressed tungsten powder...

Corbin Tungsten Powder

----------


## veitnamcam

> Probably copper jacket filled with compressed tungsten powder...
> 
> Corbin Tungsten Powder


That makes more sense!

----------


## Friwi

I wonder what is the eatablility of meat once the tungsten powder is "vaporised" through it?

Better than depleated uranium I guess :-)

----------


## Sideshow

Posted on another thread but just for everyone to know who where dealing with!
Let's not steep to her level. Keep it clean. 

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1080.e.../?__tn__=-UC-R

----------


## Brian

> I wonder what is the eatablility of meat once the tungsten powder is "vaporised" through it?
> 
> Better than depleated uranium I guess :-)


If 1080 doesn't worry kea's they should be able to handle a bit of tungsten.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> 2 October  2018
> 
> Department  of  Conservation  
> 
> Attention:  Andy  Roberts  
> 
> By  Email
> 
> 
> ...


I am suspicious that this email is not genuinely from DOC but from F&B. #3 Discusses F&B agreement to 'a plan'. I do not believe that the Act requires consultation with F&B. That is, that it is not a legal requirement to have agreement from F&B.

----------


## gimp

Yeah it's *to* Andy Roberts from F&B

----------


## Boaraxa

> I am suspicious that this email is not genuinely from DOC but from F&B. #3 Discusses F&B agreement to 'a plan'. I do not believe that the Act requires consultation with F&B. That is, that it is not a legal requirement to have agreement from F&B.


Sorry I tried to edit it and put that the letter was from ( forest & bird ) but I left it to late to edit....

----------


## faregame

She used the C word

You bunch of c***ters ; I thought good c’s but ok say what you really think lady

https://spy.nzherald.co.nz/spy-news/...J8LDw-Y.mailto

----------


## Rushy

It is just an abbreviation for Canterbury Hunters.  Ha ha ha ha.

----------


## skyflyhigh

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...id=app-android

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

----------


## Cigar

On the drive home this afternoon they said on the radio that DOC were are opening up helicopter access this summer, I think on the west coast, and in the wilderness areas.

----------


## Reindeer

> On the drive home this afternoon they said on the radio that DOC were are opening up helicopter access this summer, I think on the west coast, and in the wilderness areas.


Yes you are correct.
They are calling it a summer ballot. Yet its not a ballot per se. Its first in best dressed.
4 periods 

1st period: 5 January – 11 January 2019
2nd period: 12 January – 18 January 2019
3rd period: 19 January – 25 January 2019
4th period: 26 January – 1 February 2019


https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-re...pSgLjlZh9GgsuQ

----------


## outdoorlad

@The Claw




> Yes you are correct.
> They are calling it a summer ballot. Yet its not a ballot per se. Its first in best dressed.
> 4 periods 
> 
> 1st period: 5 January – 11 January 2019
> 2nd period: 12 January – 18 January 2019
> 3rd period: 19 January – 25 January 2019
> 4th period: 26 January – 1 February 2019
> 
> ...

----------


## Woody

Good Lord !! Signs of intelligence   :Wink:

----------


## Boaraxa

Any word on what's happening with the cull , has it been postponed this spring/summer ?

----------


## Reindeer

24th Oct Tahr Foundation
DOC Update received

Reg Kemper, DOC operations manager, has confirmed that the tahr cull is on hold pending review of Department of Conservation procedures. The cull will proceed, but there is no time frame for completion of the review or recommencement of culling. The Department will make an announcement when more information is available.

26th Oct Tahr Foundation

While the DoC culling is on hold after the tragic helicopter accident in Wanaka last week, we need to be thinking about what we need to be doing as recreational hunters.
The biggie really is recreational hunter tahr tallies being able to be included in the management total. The GAC is working on a kill return system at the moment that will be reliable and provide accurate data. Once they have presented this to DoC, then we need to lobby the hell out of them to get them to accept it. Watch this space on that one. 
The kill return that DoC have on their website at the moment is not fit for purpose and DoC have said they aren’t going to include any numbers gathered in it anyway against the tally of 10,000 they are wanting to achieve by August. Please do not use DoC’s system. What we ask you to do is keep you own info on any tahr taken so that we can include it once we have the system accepted. What we will need for each animal taken is a GPS location, a geotag if you can or a photo of the animal in its surroundings, sex, and best guess on age. Please record and keep this information until we are ready to receive it.

Hunting wise, what we ask is you just treat it as business as usual at this stage. If you want to shoot some nannies for meat or a trophy for the wall, go ahead as per normal. But do not go crazy culling any nannies yet until we have DoC agreeing to the numbers being countered. And certainly do not go shooting/culling any young bulls. This age class of animal is going to be under enough threat from the aerial culls as it is even though they are not going to shoot them intentionally, so recreational hunters must show even more restraint than normal. 
We are going to have to live with a lower tahr population than we’ve had in recent years, and it is crucial those young bulls that survive the aerial culls get to grow into old bulls. If we can’t restrain ourselves better than we have in the past, there will be nowhere near enough trophy bulls to meet recreational and guided hunting’s needs. That will just create huge conflict that does nobody any good.

----------

