# Firearms and Shooting > Shotgunning >  20/12

## jakewire

Educate  me
Is there any advantage whatsoever in buying a under/over  or  SxS in 20 gauge when I bloke already has a 12 gauge auto
I don't mean not buying the gun , that's a given,  I just mean is there any point in getting the 20 gauge over the twelve.
there is a sweet 20g SxS in the local shop I've been looking at.
cheers.

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## Tommy

I know jack shit about shotguns, but isn't the ammo twice the price?

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## Marty Henry

Can use lead shot for ducks, 20 gage goes to about 1 1/4 oz maybe more same as std 12 gage loads. Dont care what anyone else says lead kills better.  Yes ammo is a bit more expensive but a lot of guys use them trap shooting. They look good and point well, nothing to dislike really.

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## Wildman

Lighter gun and usually less recoil.

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## jakewire

How can there be less recoil in a lighter gun?

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## Wildman

Lighter loads? Don't know really, just seems to be in my experience

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## jakewire

> I know jack shit about shotguns, but isn't the ammo twice the price?


Nope.

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## Maca49

Nice ladies gun :Grin:

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## jakewire

> Lighter loads? Don't know really, just seems to be in my experience


Loads lighter, hum. are you sure? guns are often lighter which ,,,,,
also
seems to me that there is a stringing pattern with the  20, no personal expertise, just What I'm reading.

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## Wildman

Yeah I've read that to but then I've never actually patterned my own shotgun...

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## Harryg

Was always looked at as being a beginers gun mainly because of the low recoil

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## Maca49

Ask @Woody

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## mikee

I use a 12g for clays and a 20g for everything else.
Heavy 1 1/4 loads will boot more in a 20g because the guns are generally lighter

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## Wildman

But smaller bore dia which also impacts on felt recoil

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## southernman

short answer is yes, :Cool:  esp if its build, on a scaled 20ga frame, and is not overly heavy, if you have never used such a shotgun in the field, once you start you will understand why, they are so common for upland. generally they are lighter and faster handling, less fatiguing to carry all day, and the slimmer stock and profile sits in the hands better. the 20ga is suitable for all NZ game birds and looses nothing to a 12ga esp with ability to use lead,

 a 1oz load of #5 in the right place beat a 11/4  slight behind or off. 

 Over the years I have loaded and fired, many thousands of rounds, in everything from 8ga to 410, Pattern test pretty much every shotgun, and most loads during development.
 every gauge has a max charge (weight and pellet size that they start to become over whelmed and pattern poorly, and like wise a excessivly heavy charge, of smaller pellets, tends to ruin what you hit, excessive dense patterns, don't much matter with clays, but shot a duck at 20 yards with a 1 1/4 of number #8, lots holes.
 What I am trying to say, is match the gauge to the job, sure you can use a 12 for every thing, but a heavy semi 12 is good in a duck blind, not so ideal hunting chucker all over the southern alps, you want light and fast handling, and not to be fatigued or tired, as reactions will be slow.
 quail are another game bird, that will leave you wondering, how the hell, I did I not, get a shot off, :Wtfsmilie:  there were a dozen.

 Over the years, as my ability with a shotgun has improved, I have chosen to shoot smaller gauges, mostly now I shot a 16ga for bigger birds and a 20 or more often a 28ga for upland, shot gunning is not about the size, or weight of shot, but pretty much putting it, in the right place.  :Thumbsup: 
 if the shotgun does not fell right, you will shoot it poorly, want to shoot well, get a shotgun fitted to you, 

 On a final note, for all the 12ga can do it all's.
 why do you need a .22, .223, a bush pig, a std cal and a long range rig, just get a 3006 and sell the rest.

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## southernman

> Loads lighter, hum. are you sure? guns are often lighter which ,,,,,
> also
> seems to me that there is a stringing pattern with the  20, no personal expertise, just What I'm reading.


Don't worry about stringing, its pretty much not a problem, unless you are using a very small gauge and a very heavy charge. 
 Have a read about square loads, this is what, the fore fathers figured out, before magnumits screwed shotgun loads up, 
 Basically a square load, is a charge that as deep as it is wide, this is normally, were you get the most consistent, even patterns, 
 so in a 10ga 11/2, 12ga 1, 1/8-1 1/4, 16ga 1oz, 20ga 7/8 oz, 3/4 in a 28ga, 
 Generally if you need a magnum shell, or think you do, really you properly need, more time on the trap and skeet field, or a bigger gauge.

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## jakewire

Got a 30 06 mate,  considered selling all and keeping that,
However, then I bought a 9.3
dammed if I don't want to sell everything and keep that.
Still like the idea of a 20g

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## southernman

> Got a 30 06 mate,  considered selling all and keeping that,
> However, then I bought a 9.3
> dammed if I don't want to sell everything and keep that.
> Still like the idea of a 20g


Ha, I got a husky in 9.3x62, :Thumbsup:  love that old girl, funny enough not as much as a meat destroyer, as the likes of my .264 win and .270. 
 250gr accubonds and a stiff load of varget, boom, thump, down, near or far, and fast enough to 300 odd. 
 I am trimming down numbers of rifles and shotguns at moment. bought back ten from overseas. 
 I just find it amusing that in rifle's, guys will have several, for different tasks/game, and then say get a 12ga you can do everything with one,

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## Woody

The post from southernman pretty well says it all. Smaller gauges of good quality are faster handling guns. Trying to carry a massive 12ga magnum goose gun auto around the hill hunting upland game when a quality 20, 0r 28 ga is available , is a no brainer.
In the right hands and with the right load smaller gauges are effective on waterfowl as well, but in the waterfowl situation your average punter -hunter is far better off with a big bore boomer. I would not go so far as to say big multi shot guns are the best option from a game ethics or management aspect though.

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## MAJOR F

I shoot most sub gs and a nice 20g sbs is a much better handling gun than a clunkly semi usually lighter and much better to get into action faster ,easier to use getting in and out of the truck allday in the forests and much nicer to carry allday in the field and you dont have to use super heavey loads 28 to 32g loads are fine ,heck i was shooting parries yesterday with the 16guage and used 1oz 4s got my limit and they all died in the sky nothing hit the ground flaping and trying to get away others were using 3inch  2 steel and were chasing wouned birds for two paddocks give the 20 ago youl love it

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## lophortyx

the fact that you have covetous eyes on a SxS 20 ga. tells me something. perhaps you are at a stage in your shooting life where you are pondering  -  is there more enjoyment in shotgunning than can be had by one shotgun? well yes there is. you don't play golf or tennis seriously with just the one club or racket.? the merit of 20 ga. has been well debated on this forum so no need to go there. i can tell you this, when you collect a double from that sxs 20ga. you will get a glow of satisfaction that cannot be duplicated by a semi-auto. but i must warn you more guns can be addictive.  now some people like taking out a 135 year old hammergun, a brace of birds, oh what a connection to the past.

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## mikee

> the fact that you have covetous eyes on a SxS 20 ga. tells me something. perhaps you are at a stage in your shooting life where you are pondering  -  is there more enjoyment in shotgunning than can be had by one shotgun? well yes there is. you don't play golf or tennis seriously with just the one club or racket.? the merit of 20 ga. has been well debated on this forum so no need to go there. i can tell you this, when you collect a double from that sxs 20ga. you will get a glow of satisfaction that cannot be duplicated by a semi-auto. but i must warn you more guns can be addictive.  now some people like taking out a 135 year old hammergun, a brace of birds, oh what a connection to the past.


Yep not much else to add

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## Micky Duck

your .20ga will do what you ask of it and be easy to carry BUT so will a similar .12ga
the above posts mostly all mention a big heavy semi but what about a nice SxS .12ga using loads of 1oz or 1 1/8th oz you are firing same shot at same velocity when talking upland or clays, and as for ducks well if you spend the time and find out what patterns well in your .12ga steel ISNT the big hoohaah people make it out to be. trying to shoot parries up the gunga at 40 yards with load of steel #4s is like shooting irate stag/boar with the .22 magnum....yip you CAN do it if you are close enough and place shot carefully but something with a bit more weight behind it works so much better. for what its worth I don't have trouble KILLING parries mallards or close geese with steel #2s but I pick loads close to 1550fps.
oh and Im a fan of .410s incase anyone thinks its .12ga or nothing.

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## gsp follower

[QUOTE]


> *Don't worry about stringing, its pretty much not a problem,* unless you are using a very small gauge and a very heavy charge.


i beg to differ a load that doesn,t string to much is preferable again its trial and error patterning wise.
 but if you want to see the 20.s stringing compared to the 12 say let a round or two rip on the water. 
it seems the 32 to 36 gram loads are worst for it while the british 28 to 30 gram loads seem to be better.
theres no clear winner but the bigger the birds[ it seem unless really a really  shit load]  the less of a problem it is especially with the larger shot .
strangly with the 20 the mid size 2s/3s lead shot loads dont seem to string as badly  i.l let you know how the 3 inch black cloud steel hangs together.
i was clipping far to many ducks last season with a load i normally kill cleanly no problem,.
i changed up one choke size than normal and problem solved it self back to kill or miss.
but i use mainly the eley hi flyer 6s or 5s if i cant get them and this change up to 5,s for mallards was enough to put me on the backfoot even tho they patterned almost as well .
but in the string test they were a bit more stretched out not much but enough to mean i wasnt getting enough of the front of the pattern on the smaller ducks even tho they were killer on parries.*well thats my excuse anyway* :Grin: 
the 2 3/4 inch  32 gram fiocchi 2, load is all im ever going to use on geese now with the modified choke in.
 it kills them as far and and as well as anything ive shot including the awesome falcon/hf 12 gauge 40 gram lead load of 2,s 
tho my long shot days are well gone anyway it still beats the 3 inch loads in the pattern, recoil ,price and stringing stakes [if you wanted to use it in other sizes on ducks]

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## R93

Shotgunning has never been so confusing to me as it is now😆

If you get a gun you like and it fits learn how to use it.
Choking and loads will become less of a concern when you can shoot it well.
I shoot half and 3/4 in my clay gun no matter what dicipline I shoot. 
I use the same gun for all diciplines including DTL.  It is flat shooting F3 sporter with 34" barrels. 
I use a full in my field guns including my 20g.
Wouldn't have a clue what sort of pattern any of my shotguns throw.
I shoot one ounce loads at everything, maybe 1 1/8 on game if I can't find lighter in the ammo I like.
Gamebore/Kent is my preferred cartridge for targets or game if I can get it.

A long shot string can actually be benificial on game and even more so on targets. Also not a concern in my experience.




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## gsp follower

yes r93 but you use 1 ounce loads cos that or less is all you are allowed to use for clays.
damn you must be built like a brick shithouse to use that gun for skeet or sporting 100 for instance even compaq?? :Grin: 
ive heard it said and believe it takes a good experienced  shot to use tighter chokes it may well be easier over a known starting distance like dtl  
but on anything smaller than parries out hunting  full dont do didly for me.

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## R93

Point being, I use ounce loads on ducks, geese, pheasants and quail not just targets.
You don't need heavy loads to kill game. 

I am not built like a brick shit house either. 
Shot hundreds of big matches with my F3 including shitloads of skeet. I dont remember it requiring any extra effort over any other gun I have used. 
Never used any of the other chokes provided with it either.

I use full in my game guns as I either crumple the bird or miss. I let upland birds get out a bit and s a result I get bugger all wounded birds.

You aslo know you're on when you pick up headless ducks😆










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## southernman

[QUOTE=gsp follower;445188]


> i beg to differ a load that doesn,t string to much is preferable again its trial and error patterning wise.
>  but if you want to see the 20.s stringing compared to the 12 say let a round or two rip on the water. 
> it seems the 32 to 36 gram loads are worst for it while the british 28 to 30 gram loads seem to be better.
> theres no clear winner but the bigger the birds[ it seem unless really a really  shit load]  the less of a problem it is especially with the larger shot .
> strangly with the 20 the mid size 2s/3s lead shot loads dont seem to string as badly  i.l let you know how the 3 inch black cloud steel hangs together.
> i was clipping far to many ducks last season with a load i normally kill cleanly no problem,.
> i changed up one choke size than normal and problem solved it self back to kill or miss.
> but i use mainly the eley hi flyer 6s or 5s if i cant get them and this change up to 5,s for mallards was enough to put me on the backfoot even tho they patterned almost as well .
> but in the string test they were a bit more stretched out not much but enough to mean i wasnt getting enough of the front of the pattern on the smaller ducks even tho they were killer on parries.*well thats my excuse anyway*
> ...


I don't really agree, the only way you can check a shoot string, is with high speed camera equipment, 
 Shooting the water, only tells you, You hit the water, too many variables, speed, choke, angle, quality of shot size, distance, and yes shot string length,  etc etc, but we both have the same thoughts on std loads over magnum's, 
 Some times I think, in hunting/fishing, we tend to over think, the technical  things a bit, esp when inside, and thinking about the next trip/mission.
 shotguning is pretty simple, a gun that feels good in your hands, balances and swings fast and true, an approate sized load, choke and shot, for the game.
 The rest, is pretty much up to the eyes, watch the intended target, neither thinking/ planing or aiming, 
 let the mind, hands and eyes, instinctively do the work.

 I found black cloud, cuts up the meat much worse that normal steel, but it does kill well, 

 I have long since drifted away from the 12ga, into the subgauges, hand loading, bismuth, lead, heavishot, feltcards and cork, yet to make it to paperhulls, and blackpowder, someday. 

 and go the subgauges,  :Thumbsup:  
  Someday I hope to own a blackpowder, hammer gun, and take a drake brace, or clean double, on cock pheasant, on a cool winter morning, a good dog for a companion, and the lingering smell of black powder, and smoke drifting off in the mist.  :Cool:

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## Bob Da Browning

My young fella (10yrs) is moving up in gauge this year & is going to run the 20g briley sidekicks in his skeet gun for up close or in my 12g side by side for the open. He ran the .410 inserts in the side by side a couple of years back & loved it.

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## R93

My boy is just on 14 and growing like bamboo.
But he is only now big enough to wield a stock standard gun.


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## Pointer

I use the 20g for everything so I can't really comment due to bias  :Have A Nice Day:  my twelves over the last three season would have had a packet of ammo through them. And that's between three 12g guns  :Grin:

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## gsp follower

> I found black cloud, cuts up the meat much worse that normal steel, but it does kill well,


yea they,ve got some murderous name for the shape of thier shot :Grin:  i have  noticed it in thier lead loads to its a butcherer of meat.
not to mention quite stout recoil in a supposed 2 3/4 inch one ounce load.



> I don't really agree, the only way you can check a shoot string, is with high speed camera equipment, ]


true its hARDLY SCIENTIFIC BUT IS VISUALLY QUITE SURPRISING even more so is the difference between strings from 12g lead to steel.
which generally seem to shoot higher
im dying to see if its the same for 20 gauge steel not :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
i could be wrong but the different stringing and shooting higher in 12.s especially is i reckon the reason its hard to kill wingers with steel.
im my experience you have to aim at the water line with steel where as with lead you could nut them with a point of aim shot.
but as said nothings more important than choke selection and patterning with steel  with stark variations often from load to load.



> Some times I think, in hunting/fishing,* we tend to over think, the technical things a bit,* esp when inside, and thinking about the next trip/mission.


some would say we clutch for straws to rationolise our poor shooting.
 or to make sence of the unsencible ability to kill cleanly and make every shot one day but be crap the next. 
but i couldnt possibly comment :Grin:

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## lophortyx

> I use the 20g for everything so I can't really comment due to bias  my twelves over the last three season would have had a packet of ammo through them. And that's between three 12g guns


  Alas pointer, we can only shoot one gun at a time.

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## Pointer

One of life's cruel truths  :Have A Nice Day:

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## kawhia

Wouldn't be without my benelli for ducks and geese, but my little 20g is priceless.
I still have a Brno single trigger SXS on my wish list, but have been tempted by those cheap 28g SXS at h&f.

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## MAJOR F

Hear what saying kawhia ive been looken at the akkar 28g with the english stock i dont know if i can get my head around the fact that it weights the same as my 20g yildiz although its lighter than all my other 20,s i dont think they that cheap either i dont need another shottie ............but you know ive been impressed with my 28g akkar semi just the wood work could have been a bit better finished off but a good light reliable shottie all the same,those brno sidelocks are a steal if you get a minter a bit heavy but well made ill get one one day

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## Pointer

My thought too on the akkar 28g sxs. Under a grand I'd probably give one a whirl but as it is they are a lot of money for what they are. Also the one I played with in hnf wasn't a true straight stock, it flared downwards towards the toe and didn't feel right to me

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## lophortyx

although this has morphed off topic, i might add that weatherby(turkish) make a superb 28ga semi-auto. available via brian thompson via  T/M.wood version retails for about $1200. the 28 ga is the darling of the american uplanders at the moment. i have an u/o in this gauge,(i indulged,rizzini round body),i tried it on quail with mixed results.when shooting pukeko it was deadly, and in one outing i dropped two cock pheasants for two shots about 25-30 metres out.ammo is not bad thru mai mai supplies.

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## Pointer

I know we are definitely off topic now, but what did you think of the round body?

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## lophortyx

i am probably the wrong person to ask. i saw this gun when the first shipment arrived.i walked along and saw them all.i fell in love with the wood on a 20ga. english straight stock.i handled all the guns and the one that felt right was the round body 28ga.i loved it.but i knew myself well enough,to go home and sleep on it,not to make a rash decision.so i decided to go with the 20ga.,because the wood was to die for,and it was a very versatile gauge and i did nearly all my shooting with 20ga. a month or two later that 28ga. was still in the rack and i still wanted it.a mate offered to buy my beretta 20ga.(yes i have too many) so with the cash and a bit of loose stuff i had lying around i went back and got the 28 ga. it is a delight to carry.my hand goes right around the action.it has 29 and half inch barrels so that it swings with a little carry.it feels delicate and precise.it is not a heavy cover weapon,great for pigeons.the round body i love,and manufacturers are increasingly turning out this style of action.

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## jakewire

So Akkar or Yildiz
in 20g double gun
What does the panel think?

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## blake

I shoot with a 20g Yildiz and it's a dream to use.Light,fast and if I point it right birds die.Love it and won't use anything else now.

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## kawhia

I like the finish of the Akkar, Yildiz has better wood but that plastic safety makes it look cheap.....more so
I like them sub gauge Fausti sxs but they cost a bit more lol......having a play with some high end guns this weekend.

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## Pointer

If it was to be 20g under over I'd say have a peek at the Webley and Scott, the stock dimensions aren't so 'Turkish ' in fact very similar to my Miroku mk10 sporter. If its to be a sxs I'd say Yildiz. The Y bangers have a good track record here, If you can live with the plastic safety and laser engraving. I've had a gunsmith say akkar put their money in to external finish as there sure isn't any on the inside!

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## MAJOR F

out of the two i would go for the yildiz they have a good rep here and overseas im not fussed on the engraving either but they are nice and light to carry allday chasing upland game i have one and its not given me any problems todate its the old story you get what you pay for   ps my safety isnt plastic have i been ripped in getting a metal one

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## southernman

yildiz over Akkar, but only, because I have had a play with yildiz 28ga SXS, and shot well with it, no experience with Akkar.
 for a cheaper line shotgun, CZ make a couple nice ones, ie redhead, keep an eye out for second hand as well.

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## gsp follower

give me a yell if your in this neck of the woods and want to try the 20 gauge  fiocchi 30 gram 2 3/4 inch load    just jacked up a case  in half 2,s and half 3,s for 5 buks a packet cheaper than h&F.OTHER sizes available on order are 4,s and 5,s,.
know wheres theres a brand new akkar 20 gauge semi for 720 to :Thumbsup:

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## Petros_mk

> If it was to be 20g under over I'd say have a peek at the Webley and Scott, the stock dimensions aren't so 'Turkish ' in fact very similar to my Miroku mk10 sporter. If its to be a sxs I'd say Yildiz. The Y bangers have a good track record here, If you can live with the plastic safety and laser engraving. I've had a gunsmith say akkar put their money in to external finish as there sure isn't any on the inside!


Both are turkish made tho, it aint the old W&S despite its name from what I've read... I did read on an Amercian forum the W&S were coming up with a problem of both firing pins going off at times, not sure mechanically how that works or how often that happens but it was enough to put me off from buying one (as well as its fit didn't suit me)... The other issue I had with the W&S was that the safety catch was too smooth and provided no grip for the finger to push it forward properly, every time I was pushing it forward my sweaty thumb were slipping... all in all I said "bugger it" Y-banger is the safer and proven option given the feedback from others.




> yildiz over Akkar, but only, because I have had a play with yildiz 28ga SXS, and shot well with it, no experience with Akkar.
>  for a cheaper line shotgun, CZ make a couple nice ones, ie redhead, keep an eye out for second hand as well.


Agree on some of the sxs 20gs the CZ are making, if memory serves me right they had a "Woodcock" model 20g with english stock that looked primo - (I think they are made in the land of Donald Trump? could be wrong).

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## Pointer

The CZ shotguns are Turkish made also  :Have A Nice Day:  I don't have a problem with Turkish guns, they are what they are.

The only reason I suggest the W&C is the stock dimensions aren't terrible like the yildiz over unders

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## Petros_mk

Ha. nice. News to me but not surprised given the price point.

I'll compare my Yildiz against yours next time they meet each-other. I think yours, being an earlier production batch, had a lower comb, mine feels just on the money...

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## Pointer

It's that gorilla like neck of yours  :Have A Nice Day:  closer to the stock

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## Petros_mk

thanks Giraffe... lol  :Grin: 

more to the point of what the thread was about...  @jakewire the point is, get a 20g, you won't regret it. the only issue i see is the ammo price for which there is some good deals at Maimai and reloaders.

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## jakewire

cheers petros.
there is a 20 Yildiz in my local, think they want 12 or 13 hundred 13 I think may even be 1399 best go have another look I think
thought it would be cheaper though.

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## kawhia

few on trade me under a grand

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## jakewire

cool I go look.ta.

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## MAJOR F

I have one of those cz woodcock delux in 20g ou its a nice gun sideplated boxlock case coloured with a great piece of walnut have had no problems with it but it is a bit heavy for a 20g ok in the maimai but not so much upland with carring it allday helps my swing i guess ,they are not the cheapest turk gun around at 1700 i think they are getting up there a bit

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## kotuku

GSPFshoots a 20g remingtonP/a and the rotund old bugger will down anything that gets in range be it airborne;swans .canadas ,parries mallards pigeons,or onthe grouns =pheasent quail rabbits  he holds his own with any of us 12gauge users.Hes of the same opinion tho not a lot of difference in load specs,and hitting power when ones on ones game.

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## Pointer

saw this and thought of you. Price is right 
Yildiz 20g Double Barrel U/O Shotgun | Trade Me

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## kawhia

ya need this pair of 16g..............worth more than my house

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## lophortyx

i could cut you a sharp price on this little number,us$99,000. a fabulous Piotti.

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## MAJOR F

Can you do me a matched pair please

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## lophortyx

are you sure your wife knows about this? a matched pair could be made,but this does carry a small premium of an additional $25 k. making a total of US $223,000.start as soon as you make a deposit,finish time late 2017/early 2018. can you speak italian?

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## MAJOR F

Fanculo meh morto :Yuush: quelloe famale

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## Sideshow

Ha have a look on the holts action site :Grin:  it is actually cheaper per gun to buy pairs :Thumbsup:

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