# Firearms and Shooting > Firearms, Optics and Accessories >  .22lr rifles when did it become ok that they were all just crap?

## Makros

Been looking for a new .22lr preferably a semi.
Happy to pay a bit of coin but not extreme amounts.

But when did it become ok that all of the general models on the market were just rubbish?
Ruger 10/22 - Rubbish trigger as per normal, sloppy fit and finish. Shouldn't be as expensive as they are if you want something more than plastic blue.
CZ 512 - Absolutely horrible and worse than the 10/22 foreend rattled when shook creepy heavy trigger (the 10/22 was better) an that magazine is awful. WTF CZ! Absolutely huge disappointment for a ~$800 .22lr (and i''d be happy paying more for a .22lr).
Marlin's all look, feel and function like cheap rubbish, I know their reputation for accuracy but I don't care - another pile of crap.
CZ's bolt actions don't deserve the praise they get fit and finish is average, wood is crap quality and are over priced in my opinion for what they are.
Other bolt actions are barely worth mentioning, savage may as well use sand for lubricant feels the same, ditto marlin bolts.

I am not prepared to pay the asking price for what amounts to rubbish standards and quality just because the rifles are .22lr and not a centerfire.

The worse thing is I was hopeful reading reviews online about several models and the reviewers say they are good, I say the are dropping their standards to accept rubbish because it is a rimfire and not a centerfire. I use my .22lr more than any other rifle, I expect the same performance, finish, and standard of fit that I expect out of my centerfires.

Are there options for someone that actually gives a shit about .22lr quality? Most of all I want value for my dollar which I don't see in the $1200+ .22lr bolt actions and certainly not for the absolute crap below that price point. I liked the feel of the Sako Finnfire but seriously it is not a $1800 rifle, upgrade an average action with a nice stock and better finish doesn't amount to charging twice as much as your competition.
Maybe I am picky but you should be I think.

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## Shamus

Some options based on first hand experience

Mauser 201 - I have got one in 22WMR and it is pretty nice and super accurate
Weihrauch HW60 - reasonable quality/price
Anschutz - pricey if you want one off their decent ones
CZ452 American - what I have in 22LR. As accurate as anything else available and can be got reasonably priced 2nd hand. Wood can be crap or awesome - mine is OK

Generally I would have to agree with you though - most of what is available is pretty rubbish even the pricey ones.

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## Makros

Yup would love to have a look at the Weihrauch .22lrs but haven't seen one around here, need to see and feel before ordering. Also not interested in open sights and hog back stocks.
Ditto for Mauser.
Anshchutz is over priced again I considered their action disappointingly flimsy feeling.

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## veitnamcam

Volquartsen ? if you can get one that is, I couldn't even get a reply to my emails from the NZ distributer.

The 512 in my safe has a nice trigger (for a 22,certanly miles better than a 10/22) doesn't rattle and has nice wood, not so keen on the plastic but what are ya gonna do.

Sako quad?

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## Shamus

Didn't notice that you were looking for semi-auto - I don't have any useful recommendations for that ...

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## Makros

I quick;y realised I would probably end up with a bolt even though me preference for a semi as they are just not up to standard.

Can't even find a Volquartsen or get a hold of anyone that has one to look at.

Sako quad, again not worth the 1700 for a plastic fantastic based around a platform of changing barrels which is a pointless endeavor for rimfires I reckon, especially how you have to sight in for every change or get their special scope.

You either got a good 512 or I handled a dog, no prejudice just absolutely a pile of shit and had just handled a 10/22, have owned a CZ and used many more was extremely disappointed as I would of brought one otherwise.

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## veitnamcam

It must have been a 430 Friday 512 if you can compare to a 10/22  :Grin: , disappointing quality control there...

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## Nibblet

Sako quad is where it's at! Aye @7mmsaum  :Thumbsup:

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## anderset20

Mate of mines selling a really nice ruger 10/22 that has had work done on the trigger, full over barrel carbon suppressor. Accurate which is rare. I got mine the same time and mines shit. He wants $850 it's been used twice. Just an option for you.

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## grunzter

I was looking at a CZ 512 but did not like the trigger...
The Marlin 795's are only $149 in the US. i thought that was fine...  :Have A Nice Day: 
I have a CZ452 and a Savage, both bolt action and i like them, i find the quality of the CZ to be great.

Has anyone tried the new Lithgow 22LR cross over, they look cool, and are not cheap if that helps.  :Psmiley: 
LA101


...whoops, not semi...

Grant

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## veitnamcam

I lost all interest @"military grade barrel" why would you advertise the fact you have shit barrels?

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## Proudkiwi

I have a mint Magnum Research .22LR I would sell if you're interested? Ticks all your 'want' boxes.
 @Makros

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## shift14

First .22 I owned was an Anschutz 520 semi auto, prolly quite hard to get today.....should tick your boxes if you can find one.

Wood blue Sako quad is nice. You don't have to get the whole quad set up, keep an eye on TM.

B

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## peril 787b

Personally I'd recommend a Remington 597, but have been told I must have gotten a freak good one. Mine's never missed a beat and only has the extremely occasional misfire, which I more or less solved by feeding it only CCI.

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## Makros

> I have a mint Magnum Research .22LR I would sell if you're interested? Ticks all your 'want' boxes.
>  @Makros


Would mind seeing some pics and what you're after for it.
Also what sort of trigger group does it have in it? I believe they used Ruger standard trigger groups in at least a few models if so not really interested.

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## Ruger

I just picked up a brand new 10/22 for $295 from a dealer. Blued/ synthetic, it's accurate enough for me. Yes the trigger is 5.5lb out of the box, but a $35US volquartsen hammer will cure that and it will still be a bargain.

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## BRADS

Suppose it's what "you" like, I brought a cz22 off @Proudkiwi and it's very accurate. Only every had a 10/22 before that and the two can't be compared in anyway.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## gundoc

> Been looking for a new .22lr preferably a semi.
> Happy to pay a bit of coin but not extreme amounts.
> 
> But when did it become ok that all of the general models on the market were just rubbish?
> Ruger 10/22 - Rubbish trigger as per normal, sloppy fit and finish. Shouldn't be as expensive as they are if you want something more than plastic blue.
> CZ 512 - Absolutely horrible and worse than the 10/22 foreend rattled when shook creepy heavy trigger (the 10/22 was better) an that magazine is awful. WTF CZ! Absolutely huge disappointment for a ~$800 .22lr (and i''d be happy paying more for a .22lr).
> Marlin's all look, feel and function like cheap rubbish, I know their reputation for accuracy but I don't care - another pile of crap.
> CZ's bolt actions don't deserve the praise they get fit and finish is average, wood is crap quality and are over priced in my opinion for what they are.
> Other bolt actions are barely worth mentioning, savage may as well use sand for lubricant feels the same, ditto marlin bolts.
> ...


If you can be a bit more specific about the uses you wish put the rifle to, and the accuracy you expect to achieve, then we can come up with some likely candidates.  Quality fit and finish comes at a price, compounded by the fact that the manufacturer, the shipper, the wholesaler, the Government (GST), and the retailer all expect to make a profit.

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## Makros

Will be used as a general hunter rifle, spotlighting for rabbits, cats, and possums. Also used to control mynas to stop them destroying nests of other birds sometimes at extended distances.
Must be accurate and reliable, and the trigger must be clean, crisp. Two stage trigger is fine. Even heavy is fine but creep is unacceptable.
Understand quality comes at a price, but I am not prepared to pay double for what amounts to be tiny steps above the competition.

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## Maca49

Why buy new? All the best 22s I've owned have been hi qual second hand. Currently have an early model 1450 Anshutz made in the early 60s with the match action, perfect. Early browning, unique, Krico etc just find a good one

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## jakewire

The most accurate 22 I owned isn't my current cz 452A made in 2003 though I cannot complain about it, but a Marlin model 39a I had and wished I still do, though neither are semis a couple of 10rd mags for the CZ helps and the marlin lever gun took, 15-17 or so does this sound right? maybe even 19 , was a high number anyways.
The only thing about the Marlin was the time it took to reload the tube.

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## Makros

Not restricted to buying new, have been looking around for second hand. Was more a comment on the current line up.

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## Toby

I'd own a sako quad any day. If I could afford it.

You must be overly fussy

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## Shamus

> I'd own a sako quad any day. If I could afford it.
> 
> You must be overly fussy


It's the guys money he can be as fussy as he likes

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## Spudattack

I agree with you, both of my .22s are Brnos older than 25 years, back when their quality was top notch, my model 2E doubles as my F class rifle and will put 10 rounds through 1 ragged hole at 50m. Even with this though my 1948 model 1 feels in a different league craftmanship wise, its nowhere near as accurate though!
The new CZs are still good, the actions slick up really quickly and you can choose a better wood grade but the older ones are where it is at!
But  I do agree with you, most modern .22s are a heap of shit!

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## Maca49

Best .22 I owned was a Brno mod2 1974, bought it off an old guy in Sandwich Rd Hamilhole, still pisses me off they I sold it. Only rule in buying a .22 apart from reliability is you can't outshoot itI have a norinco and it's just bloody hopeless for accuracy

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## Tommy

My 'new' Brno is delightful, makes my Marlin 795ss feel nasty and cheap. See how it shoots tomorrow and there could be be a marlin up for sale.

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## FRST

I'd recommend a CZ99 from Zastava if you are on a budget and a Ruger 77/22 if you are not.

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## Makros

I would love a BRNO 581, people are reluctant to sell them though, I wonder why haha.
Wouldn't mind a Izhmash Biathlon sporting rifle. Talon Arms were selling them for a while I think but like many of the more obscure models they seem to have dried up. Would happily have a Norinco Em322, ugly but good quality.
Ruger 77/22 I would have second hand but wouldn't pay close to the asking price new they do not deserve that price tag.

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## 10-Ring

> I would love a BRNO 581, people are reluctant to sell them though, I wonder why haha....


I have a near mint BRNO 581 made in 1959, and yes I'm keeping it. Shoots under .5" at 50m.

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## Tentman

I totally understand what you're saying, I've been ruing the same thoughts for some time.  The Unique BIZ-51 should be quite nice, but they are uncommon, and I've only ever held one example - and that was some time ago.  Mainly Hunting had one and I always intended to take a look if I was passing through, but that won't happen now !!

The Weatherby XXII also should be nice, but they are even less common here.  The only common one thats approaching good is the Browning Auto 22 but thats something of an acquired taste as well with its tube mag in the butt.  I had sort of decided to get an older one and have it rebarreled with a heavier barrel, and see if I could find a 'Smith with enough nous to really tune the trigger.

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## Nick-D

I love my poxy, cheap plasticy marlin 980s. Why? because it shoots. Cost me $350 bucks scoped and silenced, and is damn near as accurate as my mates $1800 KIDD 10/22.

I think people treat 22's more as a tool than show piece, And I guess if you want a nice wooded rimfire the same quality as a nice wooded centrefire, expect to pay similar prices

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## Ground Control

I've never understood why shooters accept paying large sums of money to acquire quality Centerfire Rifles and Shotguns , yet get grumpy when their .22 which they paid only a few hundred dollars for doesn't meet there quality and accuracy expectations .
Buying public mindset , and what people are prepared to pay influences what hangs on the gunshop wall .
One of my .22's has cost me more than a Tikka T3 with a European scope .
If you take your Rimfires seriously , then be prepared to pay .

Ken

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## Simon

Happy with my E-CAT Ruger SR-22.
Accurate and reliable as long as I clean it every thousand rounds.
Mounted with a Vortex Spark 2 red dot and a vortex 3X magnifier which can be flicked to the side when not required.
The trigger is average but it makes for good practice for shooting standard out of the box AR15 triggers.

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## gundoc

Based on your requirements, and on my 50 years of gunsmithing experience, I would suggest the following in bolt action:  CZ 452, Ruger M77/22, and possibly Ruger American.  In semi-auto there is only one rifle that will give a lifetime of trouble-free service (subject to normal maintenance) and that is the Ruger 10/22.  I must also state that none of these rifles will give you what you want 'out of the box'.  All of them will require some relatively minor tuning (well under $100) but the result will be a thoroughly reliable rifle with accuracy of at least 1/2" at 50 metres.  The Sako Quad gives the appearance of quality manufacture but it is not a good design and is grossly overpriced in relation to rifles that will out perform it.  The rifles I suggested will not need the attention of a gunsmith in your lifetime apart from the initial tune.  They are all well designed and of quality materials, but just need a minor tweak to bring out their best.  Most other rifles will eventually need repairs and/or replacement parts.  Some people spend big bucks on buying after-market barrels, triggers, etc (especially with the 10/22) but the reality is that the original parts are perfectly good with some skilled attention, and are quite capable of the requirements you seek.  The Ruger rotary magazine is miles ahead of any other magazine for reliability.  Back in the 1920's to 1950's there was no shortage of skilled workmen in the firearms industry, but today that situation is reversed.  Not only are there almost no skilled workmen in the industry, but the majority of them are, at best, process workers.  That is why virtually all modern firearms require some precision handwork to bring out their best.

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## small_caliber

Best Semi auto 22 I've owned is a Winchester 63, followed by a Browning and best bolt guns are a Cooper 57M,  followed by a used Anschutz Match 54action, Weihrauch HW60 and the CZ452 and for lever actions Winchester 9422 and the Marlin 39a.

Being factory rifles some can have nice wood and others not and none have that handcrafted finish that a custom rifle has.

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## Savage1

> Been looking for a new .22lr preferably a semi.
> Happy to pay a bit of coin but not extreme amounts.
> 
> But when did it become ok that all of the general models on the market were just rubbish?
> Ruger 10/22 - Rubbish trigger as per normal, sloppy fit and finish. Shouldn't be as expensive as they are if you want something more than plastic blue.
> CZ 512 - Absolutely horrible and worse than the 10/22 foreend rattled when shook creepy heavy trigger (the 10/22 was better) an that magazine is awful. WTF CZ! Absolutely huge disappointment for a ~$800 .22lr (and i''d be happy paying more for a .22lr).
> Marlin's all look, feel and function like cheap rubbish, I know their reputation for accuracy but I don't care - another pile of crap.
> CZ's bolt actions don't deserve the praise they get fit and finish is average, wood is crap quality and are over priced in my opinion for what they are.
> Other bolt actions are barely worth mentioning, savage may as well use sand for lubricant feels the same, ditto marlin bolts.
> ...


If you want centrefire quality then pay centrefire prices. It seems clear that you value looks and finish over function.

I have a SS marlin 795 and it functions flawlessly and is more accurate than I can shoot. I couldn't care less what the finish is like when it performs the way it does, and the finish isn't terrible. It certainly isn't "rubbish" or a "pile of crap" as you call it, I've owned a few now and all functioned flawlessly so i'm guessing by your comment that you've never seriously used one.
I also have a Norinco EM332 and it functions flawlessly. 

One good bolt and one good semi, I spent as much money as I needed to to get good accurate .22s, any more money spent would've been wasted. I think the my pair of .22s owes me less than $700.

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## jakesae101

If i was going to drop some serious coin on a .22 i think id go for a nea ar15 dedicated .22lr but in saying that my 70 s 10/22 still does me well

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## andyanimal31

> I was looking at a CZ 512 but did not like the trigger...
> The Marlin 795's are only $149 in the US. i thought that was fine... 
> I have a CZ452 and a Savage, both bolt action and i like them, i find the quality of the CZ to be great.
> 
> Has anyone tried the new Lithgow 22LR cross over, they look cool, and are not cheap if that helps. 
> LA101
> Attachment 32900
> 
> ...whoops, not semi...
> ...


Yep i have the lithgow and very pleased with how solidly built and machined it is.
It is also showing to be an accurate and precise rifle as i have been doing a bit of bench work with my 22s and rate it.
My marlin model 60 deluxe has nice wood and shoots well to.
Just depends if ya dont mind the 14 round tube mag.
you wilk get plenty of advice on here!

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## Tommy

Here you go problem solved

https://touch.trademe.co.nz/listing/view/832449675

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## Yukon

> I'd recommend a CZ99 from Zastava if you are on a budget and a Ruger 77/22 if you are not.


I've have a CZ99 in .17hmr, which I have head shot rabbits at 100 metres from a rest. It also has a very nicely figured stock, and excellent bluing. I did cause myself an eye injury by over lightening the trigger, which wasn't very nice.

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## northdude

iv also had a zastava cz99 easily the best 22 ive owned that was brand new all my one needed was a trigger smooth and find what ammo it liked and that was it

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## gadgetman

> Based on your requirements, and on my 50 years of gunsmithing experience, I would suggest the following in bolt action:  CZ 452, Ruger M77/22, and possibly Ruger American.  In semi-auto there is only one rifle that will give a lifetime of trouble-free service (subject to normal maintenance) and that is the Ruger 10/22.  I must also state that none of these rifles will give you what you want 'out of the box'.  All of them will require some relatively minor tuning (well under $100) but the result will be a thoroughly reliable rifle with accuracy of at least 1/2" at 50 metres.  The Sako Quad gives the appearance of quality manufacture but it is not a good design and is grossly overpriced in relation to rifles that will out perform it.  The rifles I suggested will not need the attention of a gunsmith in your lifetime apart from the initial tune.  They are all well designed and of quality materials, but just need a minor tweak to bring out their best.  Most other rifles will eventually need repairs and/or replacement parts.  Some people spend big bucks on buying after-market barrels, triggers, etc (especially with the 10/22) but the reality is that the original parts are perfectly good with some skilled attention, and are quite capable of the requirements you seek.  The Ruger rotary magazine is miles ahead of any other magazine for reliability.  Back in the 1920's to 1950's there was no shortage of skilled workmen in the firearms industry, but today that situation is reversed.  Not only are there almost no skilled workmen in the industry, but the majority of them are, at best, process workers.  That is why virtually all modern firearms require some precision handwork to bring out their best.


The Ruger is in general rubbish and has been outsold by the Marlin semi action worldwide by somewhere between 1:2 and 1:3 times. The Ruger magazine is a good design but not the best when teamed up with a semi auto as it is renowned for clogging up with blow back gases. To get Rugers shooting OK will cost you a lot more than $100 with todays gunsmithing rates.

If you want a nice semi look out for a Marlin 60 DLX. @sneeze has a very nice example and they do not cost the earth.

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## gundoc

> The Ruger is in general rubbish and has been outsold by the Marlin semi action worldwide by somewhere between 1:2 and 1:3 times. The Ruger magazine is a good design but not the best when teamed up with a semi auto as it is renowned for clogging up with blow back gases. To get Rugers shooting OK will cost you a lot more than $100 with todays gunsmithing rates.
> 
> If you want a nice semi look out for a Marlin 60 DLX. @sneeze has a very nice example and they do not cost the earth.


The two most common semi-autos that gave problems were the Marlin (misfiring, loose barrel, magazine problems) and the Sterling M20 (broken firing pins, incorrect assembly, loose/missing ejectors).  All .22 semi-autos need periodic cleaning to remove powder residue, and some are worse than others in this regard (the 10/22 not being one of them).  The worst thing that an owner can do with a .22 semi-auto is put oil in it.  This acts as a magnet for dust and firing residue.  The full tune on a Ruger 10/22 (2.5 lb crisp trigger pull, refit barrel, tune for subs, supply and fit buffer pin) should not cost any more than $60 from any competent gunsmith.  It was a job I happily did for $50 and made good money as it takes about 30-40 minutes, and still under 1 hour if you include a threading job.

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## Toby

the stats I saw were 10/22 over 5million sold and model 60 over 11 million sold

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## ChrisF

Most people look down on the 22lr , and as such MOST are willing to pay very little for one , so thats mainly why they are cheap and not well designed or made .

I would look out for a very good 2nd hand rifle  , like the Annie 54 or a Sako P94S Finnfire , at approx 1.5k , new your only option is a new Annie 54 from deadeye dicks for just over 2k , and thats good when they use to be 3k .

The Volqs are OK , again look for a 2nd hand one , and go for the Steel actioned one ie SS and not Aluminium .

Or the Weiranchs at 1.3k new .

Me , I have a soft spot for Annie 54s and P94S , of the 2 , the Sako is a little lighter , for hunting with , and barrel changes are easier , basically a allen key & a headspace guage .

Cheers  Chris

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## gadgetman

> The two most common semi-autos that gave problems were the Marlin (misfiring, loose barrel, magazine problems) and the Sterling M20 (broken firing pins, incorrect assembly, loose/missing ejectors).  All .22 semi-autos need periodic cleaning to remove powder residue, and some are worse than others in this regard (the 10/22 not being one of them).  The worst thing that an owner can do with a .22 semi-auto is put oil in it.  This acts as a magnet for dust and firing residue.  The full tune on a Ruger 10/22 (2.5 lb crisp trigger pull, refit barrel, tune for subs, supply and fit buffer pin) should not cost any more than $60 from any competent gunsmith.  It was a job I happily did for $50 and made good money as it takes about 30-40 minutes, and still under 1 hour if you include a threading job.


I would like you to find one that will do that work for that money *today*! The Marlin, out of the box, does not generally need anything other than a weaker trigger return spring (get rid of the ridiculous anti law suit one) and and if you want a slight change to the trigger blade to improve the trigger; mine took me about 10 minutes and a floppy disc. The open design of the Marlin mags makes them very easy to clean. The shops here seem to prefer to sell people the Ruger so they can also sell them the extras they require to make them do what they should have done from the factory.

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## Carpe Diem

My 2c worth is if you are hell bent on a semi - then buy a cheap Ruger 10/22 and then add the aftermarket replacement part as required (the Tony Kidd stuff) to bring it up to the top standard - This is what the guys use for inter-club but its not cheap. An entire Kidd would be somewhere around 1600 - 2k I'm thinking from when I enquired 6 months ago. The best thing about this is you could just swap the receiver and trigger if you are happy with the barrel and stock it comes with... or replace as you have funds or parts are available... becomes a pretty good project gun as you can add on the mods as required.

Here's the details for Darin from the Tony Kidd site.
International Sales

Other than that your best opportunity for good 22lr is a bolt action. CZ probably pound for pound the best with a trigger job/ replacement made then Anshutz 64 action models than top of the heap a 54 action. (depending on its history etc) being a lefty the CZ was the choice for me.

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## gundoc

You guys just don't get it!  The Ruger 10/22 does NOT need any aftermarket parts to make it a 100% reliable and accurate rifle.  It just needs lees than 1 hours work on the factory parts to get the job done.  The 10/22 after-market parts are for people with more money than brains!  I was one of the first professional shooters in NZ to use the 10/22 (1966) and I have been tuning them since then.  I have fitted new factory barrels to 10/22's that have done in excess of 100,000 rounds and they are still giving good service with professional shooters.  Maybe I should offer pre-tuned new wood/blue 10/22's to the NZ market (with 50 metre test targets) for $500 and make a killing!

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## ChrisF

YES ,

I will , BUY one .

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## GravelBen

> Maybe I should offer pre-tuned new wood/blue 10/22's to the NZ market (with 50 metre test targets) for $500 and make a killing!


You know, thats actually not a bad idea!

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## Shamus

> You guys just don't get it!  The Ruger 10/22 does NOT need any aftermarket parts to make it a 100% reliable and accurate rifle.  It just needs lees than 1 hours work on the factory parts to get the job done.  The 10/22 after-market parts are for people with more money than brains!  I was one of the first professional shooters in NZ to use the 10/22 (1966) and I have been tuning them since then.  I have fitted new factory barrels to 10/22's that have done in excess of 100,000 rounds and they are still giving good service with professional shooters.  Maybe I should offer pre-tuned new wood/blue 10/22's to the NZ market (with 50 metre test targets) for $500 and make a killing!


People 'learning' all they know from the internet and confusing that with first hand experience is the problem here I think @gundoc ...

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## gadgetman

> You guys just don't get it!  The Ruger 10/22 does NOT need any aftermarket parts to make it a 100% reliable and accurate rifle.  It just needs lees than 1 hours work on the factory parts to get the job done.  The 10/22 after-market parts are for people with more money than brains!  I was one of the first professional shooters in NZ to use the 10/22 (1966) and I have been tuning them since then.  I have fitted new factory barrels to 10/22's that have done in excess of 100,000 rounds and they are still giving good service with professional shooters.  Maybe I should offer pre-tuned new wood/blue 10/22's to the NZ market (with 50 metre test targets) for $500 and make a killing!


If you could do it you would make a killing.

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## gadgetman

> People 'learning' all they know from the internet and confusing that with first hand experience is the problem here I think @gundoc ...


There is nothing wrong with doing a bit of homework on the internet. You can tap into the knowledge of many thousands of people world wide. That is what this site is about; more than one opinion. I researched world wide on the internet and found that people that own both Ruger and Marlin semis would generally take the Marlin for a hunt as it was more far more accurate and reliable out of the box and with 10 minutes work the trigger could me made much better. They kept the Ruger for plinking and blinging.

There is a very good reason the Marlin has out sold the Ruger world wide, it is really just in NZ that the Ruger has a bigger following. There is also a reason there are so few after market parts for the Marlin (doesn't need them) and so many for the Ruger (does).

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## Ground Control

Just to add another aspect to this discussion of accuracy , and not the original topic of rimfire quality .
A number of times I've been asked to help someone at the gun club to sort out a problem .22 .
After the initial check of the basics - mounts , crown , trigger adjustment if its an option , then multiple ammo changes , the biggest hindrance to consistent accuracy is the cheap arse scopes that gunshops sell to customers with the advice that it will be fine on a .22 , but in the same breathe advise it would be no good on a Centerfire .
Parallax is a major problem with many scopes ( not just cheap ones either ) when used at .22 distances .
It can be overcome in a limited way if your aware of it and use a absolutely consistent gun hold and sight picture .
But even that can just leave you chasing your tail .
Everyone blames the rifle , but a large component of the problems can be the cheap Hong Kong Phooey Optics and Beer Can alloy mounts .

Ken

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## Carpe Diem

May be I should have bolded the most important words in my posts top line ... " *AS REQUIRED*

The best thing is actually, *you have options* e.g. trigger or trigger work to get it to exactly what you want a super light trigger well you can do that, new barrel or action you can do that- but rest assured once you start it becomes a bit of a arms race and hence I added Darins details  and at the end of the day comes down to peoples preferences out there.

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## Dead is better

> I lost all interest @"military grade barrel" why would you advertise the fact you have shit barrels?


I know exactly what you mean man. Those that win government contracts are always the lowest of low.

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## Spudattack

EM 332 | Trade Me

EM332 on TM

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## mudgripz

As a past comp shooter and long term rimfire hobbyist I would like to challenge some comments made here. The notion that most 22s now sold - marlin, cz, savage etc are all of very low quality and are absolute crap is opinion and nothing more than that. It is certainly not fact. It is quite opposed to the views and buying behaviour of most kiwi shooters/farmers who buy 97-98% of their 22s in the $0-800 dollar category, while just 2% of buyers choose the high priced Sako Quads/Weihrauch etc. This breakdown from manager of large rifle retailer.

We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.

Have had the opportunity to thoroughly bench test somewhere between 60-100 .22 makes and models in the last 20 years - new models from manufacturers and second hand units - and there are in fact some very sound 22 performers which cost very little but which function very well and shoot superbly on the bench and in the field. We have also shot just under 20,000 bunnies from just one of our stations alone in the last 7 years - in depth field testing which shows out the merits and faults of any rifle. And from this experience I have no hesitation in recommending a number of models and makes as having the right operating qualities for NZ conditions. These reliable and often inexpensive little performers include CZ and Brno models - excellent wee hunters - Marlin 925 and 980, Marlin 795 and model 60 semiautos, upgrade Savages, Winchester 9422, Norinco Em332, polished JW15s and others.

Each of these little units can be deadly effective off the bench as well as in the field in the right hands. Some have proven superbly accurate e.g. a Norinco Em332 which shot 4 consecutive groups averaging 0.6" at 100 meters; two Marlin 60 semiautomatics which touched 1/4" for groups at 50m (5 shot) and averaged 0.29 and 0.39 respectively for four group sets, JW15s which easily outshot Brnos, and Marlin 925s shooting into the 0.3s. They are well capable of matching any european sporters - and beat many off the bench. These same rifles have proven themselves thoroughly on the range and in the field. This is operational quality and its what most kiwi 22 buyers seek out.

Re semiauto 22s I've tested alot and ruger is one we no longer use - having had 6-7. They have consistently poor accuracy out of the box and I fundamentally object to buying a rifle then having to spend alot on getting it to shoot properly. The days are long gone when above mentioned ruger work would happen for $50-60. Two inexpensive semiautos that shine on the bench and in the field ( have tested maybe 12-15 of them) when doing side-by-side analysis with other makes are the two little marlins. The simple little 795 will comfortably shoot under 0.5" at 50 out of the box, and average round 0.58" for four group sets, and the 60s will drop to 1/4" at 50m - stunning accuracy. In terms of value/performance the little walnut stock 60DLX special at about $575 easily wins the semi race. We have used alot of these marlin semiautos in recent years - after they completely dismantled my own prejudice against semiauto inaccuracy - and we have almost zero reliability problems. Give them the right ammos and maintenance and they are trouble free.

I've had some beautiful 22s and tested others, but when it is time to head for the hills it is the highly competent super accurate wee workers that are picked out of the gunrack. And there are quite a number of these little units which give high quality performance in the field. That's the quality we most often look for in a 22, and it's what kiwis try to buy.

----------


## Savage1

> EM 332 | Trade Me
> 
> EM332 on TM


That's taking the piss, I paid $300 for mine not long ago.

----------


## moonhunt

> EM 332 | Trade Me
> 
> EM332 on TM


Trade me is supposed to email me when they get listed... but damn look at the price

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## Shamus

> As a past comp shooter and long term rimfire hobbyist I would like to challenge some comments made here. The notion that most 22s now sold - marlin, cz, savage etc are all of very low quality and are absolute crap is opinion and nothing more than that. It is certainly not fact. It is quite opposed to the views and buying behaviour of most kiwi shooters/farmers who buy 97-98% of their 22s in the $0-800 dollar category, while just 2% of buyers choose the high priced Sako Quads/Weihrauch etc. This breakdown from manager of large rifle retailer.
> 
> We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.
> 
> Have had the opportunity to thoroughly bench test somewhere between 60-100 .22 makes and models in the last 20 years - new models from manufacturers and second hand units - and there are in fact some very sound 22 performers which cost very little but which function very well and shoot superbly on the bench and in the field. We have also shot just under 20,000 bunnies from just one of our stations alone in the last 7 years - in depth field testing which shows out the merits and faults of any rifle. And from this experience I have no hesitation in recommending a number of models and makes as having the right operating qualities for NZ conditions. These reliable and often inexpensive little performers include CZ and Brno models - excellent wee hunters - Marlin 925 and 980, Marlin 795 and model 60 semiautos, upgrade Savages, Winchester 9422, Norinco Em332, polished JW15s and others.
> 
> Each of these little units can be deadly effective off the bench as well as in the field in the right hands. Some have proven superbly accurate e.g. a Norinco Em332 which shot 4 consecutive groups averaging 0.6" at 100 meters; two Marlin 60 semiautomatics which touched 1/4" for groups at 50m (5 shot) and averaged 0.29 and 0.39 respectively for four group sets, JW15s which easily outshot Brnos, and Marlin 925s shooting into the 0.3s. They are well capable of matching any european sporters - and beat many off the bench. These same rifles have proven themselves thoroughly on the range and in the field. This is operational quality and its what most kiwi 22 buyers seek out.
> 
> Re semiauto 22s I've tested alot and ruger is one we no longer use - having had 6-7. They have consistently poor accuracy out of the box and I fundamentally object to buying a rifle then having to spend alot on getting it to shoot properly. The days are long gone when above mentioned ruger work would happen for $50-60. Two inexpensive semiautos that shine on the bench and in the field ( have tested maybe 12-15 of them) when doing side-by-side analysis with other makes are the two little marlins. The simple little 795 will comfortably shoot under 0.5" at 50 out of the box, and average round 0.58" for four group sets, and the 60s will drop to 1/4" at 50m - stunning accuracy. In terms of value/performance the little walnut stock 60DLX special at about $575 easily wins the semi race. We have used alot of these marlin semiautos in recent years - after they completely dismantled my own prejudice against semiauto inaccuracy - and we have almost zero reliability problems. Give them the right ammos and maintenance and they are trouble free.
> ...


You are just challenging one persons opinion with your own, it doesn't make it fact ...

----------


## jakewire

I dunno if it's so much opinon as well documented actual testing and field work experience

----------


## gadgetman

> You are just challenging one persons opinion with your own, it doesn't make it fact ...


That is pretty balanced. An opinion that is backed up with testing and numbers. As he said his opinion was challenged, and it his opinion has now changed.

----------


## Ground Control

> As a past comp shooter and long term rimfire hobbyist I would like to challenge some comments made here. The notion that most 22s now sold - marlin, cz, savage etc are all of very low quality and are absolute crap is opinion and nothing more than that. It is certainly not fact. It is quite opposed to the views and buying behaviour of most kiwi shooters/farmers who buy 97-98% of their 22s in the $0-800 dollar category, while just 2% of buyers choose the high priced Sako Quads/Weihrauch etc. This breakdown from manager of large rifle retailer.
> 
> We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.
> 
> Have had the opportunity to thoroughly bench test somewhere between 60-100 .22 makes and models in the last 20 years - new models from manufacturers and second hand units - and there are in fact some very sound 22 performers which cost very little but which function very well and shoot superbly on the bench and in the field. We have also shot just under 20,000 bunnies from just one of our stations alone in the last 7 years - in depth field testing which shows out the merits and faults of any rifle. And from this experience I have no hesitation in recommending a number of models and makes as having the right operating qualities for NZ conditions. These reliable and often inexpensive little performers include CZ and Brno models - excellent wee hunters - Marlin 925 and 980, Marlin 795 and model 60 semiautos, upgrade Savages, Winchester 9422, Norinco Em332, polished JW15s and others.
> 
> Each of these little units can be deadly effective off the bench as well as in the field in the right hands. Some have proven superbly accurate e.g. a Norinco Em332 which shot 4 consecutive groups averaging 0.6" at 100 meters; two Marlin 60 semiautomatics which touched 1/4" for groups at 50m (5 shot) and averaged 0.29 and 0.39 respectively for four group sets, JW15s which easily outshot Brnos, and Marlin 925s shooting into the 0.3s. They are well capable of matching any european sporters - and beat many off the bench. These same rifles have proven themselves thoroughly on the range and in the field. This is operational quality and its what most kiwi 22 buyers seek out.
> 
> Re semiauto 22s I've tested alot and ruger is one we no longer use - having had 6-7. They have consistently poor accuracy out of the box and I fundamentally object to buying a rifle then having to spend alot on getting it to shoot properly. The days are long gone when above mentioned ruger work would happen for $50-60. Two inexpensive semiautos that shine on the bench and in the field ( have tested maybe 12-15 of them) when doing side-by-side analysis with other makes are the two little marlins. The simple little 795 will comfortably shoot under 0.5" at 50 out of the box, and average round 0.58" for four group sets, and the 60s will drop to 1/4" at 50m - stunning accuracy. In terms of value/performance the little walnut stock 60DLX special at about $575 easily wins the semi race. We have used alot of these marlin semiautos in recent years - after they completely dismantled my own prejudice against semiauto inaccuracy - and we have almost zero reliability problems. Give them the right ammos and maintenance and they are trouble free.
> ...


You bring up some interesting points .
Those group sizes are impressive .
You must have been using wind indicators and Target ammo ?
What groups did your Competition rifles shoot ?


Ken

----------


## Shamus

> We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.


Just to clarify my earlier post this is where the opinion is - I have had for years a lovely little German made 22 mag, lovely walnut stock, Kahles scope and it gets used - for everything. Has been bounced around in a scabbard on a motorbike etc. Its the rifle that gets used the most so I bought a nice one and I use it - it doesn't stay in the closet.

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## Shamus

> That is pretty balanced. An opinion that is backed up with testing and numbers. As he said his opinion was challenged, and it his opinion has now changed.


True - I wasn't arguing with his facts and figures but his opinion on what people buy and why - that is an opinion. My post was pretty poorly worded  :Sad:

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## jakewire

I now see your point of view Shamus.
cheers.

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## 10-Ring

Shamus, you're probably not like most kiwis who buy their working .22 rifles in the sub 1K category. 

When discussing the masses, generalizations have to be made.

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## gadgetman

> True - I wasn't arguing with his facts and figures but his opinion on what people buy and why - that is an opinion. My post was pretty poorly worded


With you.

One of my favourite rifles would be the second hand (probably a lot more than two) Norinco JW-15. Cost a whole $100. Got it cut down and took it to range to sight it in at 50m. First group (5 shots) was after bore sighting. Then shifted to the dot.



Finished with another group



Would be better if someone taught me how to shoot. Instructions I've had so far are load a round and keep it pointing that way.

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## Shamus

> With you.
> 
> One of my favourite rifles would be the second hand (probably a lot more than two) Norinco JW-15. Cost a whole $100. Got it cut down and took it to range to sight it in at 50m. First group (5 shots) was after bore sighting. Then shifted to the dot.
> 
> 
> 
> Finished with another group
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like you are doing OK  :Have A Nice Day:

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## jakewire

You seem to be doing not too badly on your lonesome there Gadgetman  :Have A Nice Day:

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## gadgetman

I'm getting there. I can see I kept pulling shots, and I knew as soon as I squeezed the trigger on those fliers. But you have to look to see how bad it is, just like when you cut yourself.

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## Makros

Certainly has made for some interesting reading and have been fervently looking around and have seen a few things on trademe etc. Re the EM332 - not at that price.
Have been swinging around to the CZ452 actually have used a Brno Mod 1 a lot and owned a Jw-15 for some time - it started to give trouble with inconsistent accuracy after about 1500 rounds went from extremely accurate to shocking and the zero moved around. Think it was the stock in the end that let it down and was the cause. Should have just relieved the barrel channel and probably would of fixed it but sold it on. Wanted a semi-auto but really I don't think I will be happy with one.
Like the Anschutz and Weihrauch but a: No shops around here have one to look and test for fit. b: for the weihrauch hog back stock should be obsolete these days with the predominance of optics. The CZ I know is a good fit/stock size, maybe get the barrel cut to 16" (what the other 6 inches are there for is anyone's guess on a .22lr).

A Model 60 DLX would be nice but a tube mag just doesn't fit my needs.

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## Spudattack

I think have moved away from the point of this thread, the OP wants something nice, he has money to spend but wants something that looks good, feels good and is finished nicely to a high standard and is struggling to find something that fits this bill.
He is not disputing that cheap .22s can be accurate, merely that most, even the more pricey ones,  look and feel cheap and are not something he can be proud of owning.
I agree with him in this regard. 
As much of a CZ fan as I am I still agree that the workmanship of the 452 is not what it was on the Brnos, I have not played with a 455 yet so cannot comment on those.

Maybe we should ask Howa to build a .22, they can make a centrefire to a extremely high standard that retails for under $800 so why not a .22?  :Thumbsup:

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## Makros

> I think have moved away from the point of this thread, the OP wants something nice, he has money to spend but wants something that looks good, feels good and is finished nicely to a high standard and is struggling to find something that fits this bill.
> He is not disputing that cheap .22s can be accurate, merely that most, even the more pricey ones,  look and feel cheap and are not something he can be proud of owning.
> I agree with him in this regard. 
> As much of a CZ fan as I am I still agree that the workmanship of the 452 is not what it was on the Brnos, I have not played with a 455 yet so cannot comment on those.
> 
> Maybe we should ask Howa to build a .22, they can make a centrefire to a extremely good standard that retailsfor under $800 so why not a .22?


You are right but this thread has helped make a decision to get something that may not be perfect but adequate and well matched for what I will do with it. Re the 455 I haven't seen close up or felt one but anything switch barrel must have a compromise to allow this in something I do not require to change the barrel ever (merely opinion about switch barrels maybe there is no compromise but it is my perception).

Your last line was pretty much the point of this thread, I am happy to spend but it must be good value for my money and rimfires compared to centrefires you must make a huge leap in cost to just take a somewhat minimal step up in quality.

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## Makros

@mudgripz Let me know when you've done a review and test of the Ruger American I would be very interested in your perceptions if you get to have a look at one.

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## gadgetman

Very true Makros. The difference in a bit of hand finishing and selecting a nice stock shouldn't be much.

I'm a tight arse and like to spend the least to do the best I can. Also like the odd occasion at the range where someone comes over to see what out shot their pride and joy, and they find it was a heap  of junk that looks a heap of junk. The annoying thing is I bought this as the kids gun.

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## jakewire

It has most certainly been an interesting thread.
I may well have to look closer at rimfires, I've always been a " buy a reasonable one and use it " bloke, however even my own earlier post about the Marlin 39a made me think there is a little more to them .
Howa make one, well thats certainly a good idea.

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## mudgripz

Mak - I think you've nailed it in the comment "something that may not be perfect but adequate and well matched for what I will do with it." Some of these rifles are quite humble but by heavens they are deadly at what they do. Give some thought to a marlin 795 which with an action polish, Mcarbo spring set to lower trigger to 3.5lbs, and a Boyds stock - can become an accurate wee shooter with real charm. Scroll down this rfc thread past the Boyds evolution 60 to the 795 in Target Hunter stock in Royal Jacaranda. Not near Weihrauch quality but a little carbine with real character.

Boyds target hunter stocks for 60/795s - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Ken - usually stick to hunting rounds for sporter rifle tests, though also some basic solids eg std vel CCI and Winchester Expert black packet. Have used at times SK, Lapua, Eley Club/Match/Tenex, Fiocchi Match/Supermatch but generally find there will be a hunting round they like. Can often be high velocity. I pop good scope on the wee rifles, run them through 8-15 types of ammo, then drill into preferred ammos. Mexican yeollow packet Aguila superextra of few years ago (almost identical to Fiocchi HV blue packet) would easily pop 0.5s and 0.6s at 100m in the EM332. That was overall the most accurate sporter round but not best in all rifles.

Very accurate sub 0.5" shooters (not just one occasional group which is meaningless) at 50m include: CZ, Brno, Norincos Em332/JW27/JW15, Marlins 980/925, and Marlin semiautos 795 and 60,Weihrauch HW 60 J. Consistently most accurate at 100m = Norinco Em332; most accurate at 50m = Marlin 60DL.

Other good performers 0.5 - 0.7" : Toz 78 (fine wee rifle for kiwi conditions), Winchester 9422, Savage Mk 2, and the excellent ruger 10/22 model 96 lever action - best of the rugers and a top hunter etc etc.

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## andyanimal31

> Certainly has made for some interesting reading and have been fervently looking around and have seen a few things on trademe etc. Re the EM332 - not at that price.
> Have been swinging around to the CZ452 actually have used a Brno Mod 1 a lot and owned a Jw-15 for some time - it started to give trouble with inconsistent accuracy after about 1500 rounds went from extremely accurate to shocking and the zero moved around. Think it was the stock in the end that let it down and was the cause. Should have just relieved the barrel channel and probably would of fixed it but sold it on. Wanted a semi-auto but really I don't think I will be happy with one.
> Like the Anschutz and Weihrauch but a: No shops around here have one to look and test for fit. b: for the weihrauch hog back stock should be obsolete these days with the predominance of optics. The CZ I know is a good fit/stock size, maybe get the barrel cut to 16" (what the other 6 inches are there for is anyone's guess on a .22lr).
> 
> A Model 60 DLX would be nice but a tube mag just doesn't fit my needs.


I have the cz 455 that came with the .22lr and 17hmr barrel.
I only swapped the barrels once and then sold the 17 barrel.
if the 22 wont do it i grab the 22-250.
I do like the quality of the wood and the finish of engineering  but would put the lithgow above it if you dont mind the synthetic stock.
I didnt have any issues with the switch barrel system which seemed to work well but i cant be bothered re zeroing  after barrel swaps.
Thats my 2 cents worth anyway!

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## anderset20

> The two most common semi-autos that gave problems were the Marlin (misfiring, loose barrel, magazine problems) and the Sterling M20 (broken firing pins, incorrect assembly, loose/missing ejectors).  All .22 semi-autos need periodic cleaning to remove powder residue, and some are worse than others in this regard (the 10/22 not being one of them).  The worst thing that an owner can do with a .22 semi-auto is put oil in it.  This acts as a magnet for dust and firing residue.  The full tune on a Ruger 10/22 (2.5 lb crisp trigger pull, refit barrel, tune for subs, supply and fit buffer pin) should not cost any more than $60 from any competent gunsmith.  It was a job I happily did for $50 and made good money as it takes about 30-40 minutes, and still under 1 hour if you include a threading job.


Is this tune up a common job? I think this is what I'll do to mine even if it costs more than that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## 10-Ring

For the money, if you want a high grade, well finished rifle I think the Weihrauch HW 60 J is a great buy. The hog back butt stock doesn't slope down too much compared to some others with hog back butts. I have a beautiful, very accurate Brno Model 1 that I use for rabbits but I really liked the Weihrauch I saw at Reloaders a while back. I had to control my emotions, take several deep breaths and walk out of the store.

The Weihrauch HW 66 Production has the American style straight stock and you should be able to order one through the NZ distributor. 
Weihrauch Sport - match and hunting

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## gadgetman

> Is this tune up a common job? I think this is what I'll do to mine even if it costs more than that. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The difficult part will be finding a gunsmith of @gundoc's abilities. Most will at most just replace barrels on a 10/22 and that is all they are interested in as far as rimfire is concerned. Gundoc still has a very enviable reputation around here. I'm still miffed at finding he had retired when I wanted some work done.

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## Toby

Dont get a 10/22 they said. You'll have to spend extra money on it they said

Get a marlin and buy a new stock and new spring then polish the action instead...


Haha righto

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## gadgetman

> Dont get a 10/22 they said. You'll have to spend extra money on it they said
> 
> Get a marlin and buy a new stock and new spring then polish the action instead...
> 
> 
> Haha righto


Cheeky little bugger. I found that a free floppy spring and 10 minutes worked just as well.

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## Toby

About the only thing that I didnt like with the 10/22 was the trigger. My marlin has a shit trigger so does the other marlin oh and the magtec and both winchesters feel like shit as well. Shit triggers all round 

Never stopped me killing whatever I pointed them at. Said it before and I'll say it again you dont need holes touching in paper to kill shit. Its literally that simple. 


Bit off topic sorry. I'll let you get back to finding a nice .22 now

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## Nibblet

> Dont get a 10/22 they said. You'll have to spend extra money on it they said
> 
> Get a marlin and buy a new stock and new spring then polish the action instead...
> 
> 
> Haha righto


Actually lol'd! 

I have a 795 and love it, expect nothing fancy from it bar good groups and doesn't fail me, after I fixed MY fuck up of bending the ejector she cycles mint. Just brought a sako quad so will have a mint bolt action to compare it to, my jw15 is a laser beam, 

wise man once said "to each his own".

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## mudgripz

Perhaps I should clarify - you can pop new stock on them and do some polishing with your wee marlin if you choose. The difference is that you don't have to - they shoot very well out of the box.

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## 10-Ring

The main disadvantage with semi autos are their triggers and that's why I'll take a bolt action any day over a semi. The two stage trigger on my old Brno Model 1 is set to about 1lb and it makes it much easier for head shots. The trigger on my Brno 581 auto is crap in comparison and that's why I seldom use it for rabbit shooting. Sure, you can buy a $400 plus Timney trigger for your 10/22 but what I've seen most owners of those rifles don't want to do that.

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## gundoc

> The difficult part will be finding a gunsmith of @gundoc's abilities. Most will at most just replace barrels on a 10/22 and that is all they are interested in as far as rimfire is concerned. Gundoc still has a very enviable reputation around here. I'm still miffed at finding he had retired when I wanted some work done.


I still keep my hand in for selected jobs/customers provided you are not in too much of a hurry (yeah, yeah!  I can hear you saying 'So what's new?').  PM me if you have a need.

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## Gerbs

> I still keep my hand in for selected jobs/customers provided you are not in too much of a hurry (yeah, yeah!  I can hear you saying 'So what's new?').  PM me if you have a need.


Careful, you'll have an inbox full of messages with an offer like that!

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## mudgripz

Weihrauch HW 60 J a delightful rifle - very well made. Was given one to range and field test in 22 magnum and straight away it dropped into 0.2"s for groups at 50m - averaged in 0.3s. Stunning. Took it on field trip and was very hard to give it back. One in 22 mag for sale on trademe went for just $640 - only reason I did not take it is would hate to scratch up that lovely woodwork.

Some other euro 22s are quite inexpensive 2nd hand here and are worth a look - Krico, Voere, anschutz 1450 etc and of course the occasional gevarm, and the Unique which has its own  following. They are generally fine shooters but by no means necessarily more accurate than other makes listed in earlier post. The liability you take on with them is parts supply - mags/springs/other components can be very difficult to source esp for older models and are often v expensive.

The one thing you need when testing and playing about with rimfires is a sense of humour. If you don't have one you'll soon get it. Its often the case that some of the cheapest little rifles can be absolute tackdrivers. You go out and bench test some more expensive make and it does ok, then you line up a scruffy little JW15 or something and it shoots superbly, and blows the expensive make out of the water. You end up looking down the scope at some tiny group wondering 'what the bloody hell just happened?'. Then it does it again! All you can do is shake your head and laugh. Example was Gadget's little JW bought for about $100. I go to pop a few groups through it and immediately it shoots 0.3" at 50m. What??? Then he takes it out and also gets tiny groups close to match rifle performance. Much amusement ....and a healthy dose of respect.

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## Tentman

Great Thread !

Has anyone ever had their hands on a Browning BAR-22, this is the one that looks like its bigger CF brother, with tube mag under the barrel.  Theres not much on the net about them, seems that parts are difficult and the occasional one has feeding issues.

----------


## Ground Control

The worst semiauto that I ever owned was a Voere . I don't remember the model but it fired from an open breach .
The Bloody thing would burst about 4 or 5 cases every box of ammo just below the rim .
You would get an almighty blast coming back at you and your ears would ring .
I had 3 so called qualified people look at it , but non of them could find the problem . I ended up scrapping the thing because there was no way I could sell it to someone .
I think now with a bit more knowledge under my belt that the thing had a rough chamber , as the bolt slammed the case forward into the chamber it meet resistance and the cartridge went off before it was fully home . It didn't have a traditional firing pin as such , it had a raised ridge vertically on the face of the bolt which hit the case fully across the end , not just the rim .
Nice rifle otherwise , from memory it was quite accurate when it wasn't going off like a stun grenade .

Ken

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## garyp

I have three .22 rifles. When I was 16 I bought a 1966 Brno model 2 and have 4x Leupold in modified Ruger rings on it. My second is a 1956 Brno that I bought as a project. I removed the sights, restocked classic style in fancy walnut, reblued it and fitted IOR 4x scope again in modified Ruger rings. My third is a Remington 541T with quite a beefy barrel compared to most rimfires. It wears a 2-7 Leupold in Conetrol rings. All have beautiful crisp trggers and are superbly accurate with CCI subsonics. I will never sell them as I have put so much work into them and I use them often . If I see any old Brnos with stuffed stocks I will buy them to do up as long as the barrel is fine inside.

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## Tommy

> I have three .22 rifles. When I was 16 I bought a 1966 Brno model 2 and have 4x Leupold in modified Ruger rings on it. My second is a 1956 Brno that I bought as a project. I removed the sights, restocked classic style in fancy walnut, reblued it and fitted IOR 4x scope again in modified Ruger rings. My third is a Remington 541T with quite a beefy barrel compared to most rimfires. It wears a 2-7 Leupold in Conetrol rings. All have beautiful crisp trggers and are superbly accurate with CCI subsonics. I will never sell them as I have put so much work into them and I use them often . If I see any old Brnos with stuffed stocks I will buy them to do up as long as the barrel is fine inside.


I've never seen a Rem 541T so I googled it and this image came up amongst others. Maple stock, I quite like it even though I'm not usually a fan of lighter coloured wood stocks

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## northdude

my most accurate 22 I own is my mod 107 mauser very accurate with win power points

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## 10-Ring

> The worst semiauto that I ever owned was a Voere . I don't remember the model but it fired from an open breach ....Ken


Gevarm also produced several different semi auto models way back, three were the A series which used the open bolt system you describe and one, the Gevarm E1, used a conventional firing pin arrangement. A childhood friend had an A2 back in the late 60's and it was an accurate rifle although the bolt slamming forward system didn't help.

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## res

Got to love a gervarm!
Not that I think they would meet the op's needs

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## Spudattack

Quality older .22, nice price too!

WINCHESTER MODEL 52 .22 | Trade Me

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## mudgripz

Mmmm...couple of real gems showing up here - the Remmy 541T and the Winchester model 52. Would be very pleased to have either.

Sold a brace of winchester 9422s last year - one in 22LR and one in 22 magnum. There are some delightful rifles out of the USA.

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## Shamus

> I have three .22 rifles. When I was 16 I bought a 1966 Brno model 2 and have 4x Leupold in modified Ruger rings on it. My second is a 1956 Brno that I bought as a project. I removed the sights, restocked classic style in fancy walnut, reblued it and fitted IOR 4x scope again in modified Ruger rings. My third is a Remington 541T with quite a beefy barrel compared to most rimfires. It wears a 2-7 Leupold in Conetrol rings. All have beautiful crisp trggers and are superbly accurate with CCI subsonics. I will never sell them as I have put so much work into them and I use them often . If I see any old Brnos with stuffed stocks I will buy them to do up as long as the barrel is fine inside.


 @garyp - how about some photos of the rifles?

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## Tommy

+1

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## ChrisF

That Win 52 , looks like the modern repro the company did in the 90s or later , IF so its made in Japan ?

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## steven

I have been looking at the CZ455 supermatch, seemed OK to me, but I'm hard pressed to pay $900 for it when a Norinco is more like $300.

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## Tommy

Have you worked the bolt on the norinco?

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## Shearer

> The Ruger is in general rubbish and has been outsold by the Marlin semi action worldwide by somewhere between 1:2 and 1:3 times. The Ruger magazine is a good design but not the best when teamed up with a semi auto as it is renowned for clogging up with blow back gases. To get Rugers shooting OK will cost you a lot more than $100 with todays gunsmithing rates.
> If you want a nice semi look out for a Marlin 60 DLX. @sneeze has a very nice example and they do not cost the earth.


Yeah. Michael Jackson sold more records than Smashing Pumpkins too.
Doesn't make him better though.

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## Tentman

Why is life so tough, and decisions so fraught . . . . 

Was in the local emporium today and good old Greghud just had to take something off the rack to handle . . . the only semi autos they have in stock besides some funny "black ones" are Ruger 10/22's

The "new" ordinary 10/22's have a new stock, its a beech copy of the old deluxe one, and its much better than the old style stock, which seems to me was sized for kids.   I rather liked it and  think I've talked myself into buying it, when all said and done a semi -auto .22 has to function first and for-most, and the 10/22's at least do that, and with the flush mag are nice to carry.  At something just over 500 notes, its quite a jump to the nice stuff at $1500 or so . . . .

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## Tommy

> Yeah. Michael Jackson sold more records than Smashing Pumpkins too.
> Doesn't make him better though.


Yes it does: Billy Corgan is nearly as big a twat as Bono!

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## mudgripz

Another 22 that tested out quite well on range - forgot to mention it in post above - is the Toz 78 bolt action. This is typical Toz - tough, durable wee unit and at $495 or so with four mags its a pretty good deal. Accuracy quite good at 0.7" at 50m. I thought it would be an excellent little 22 hunter for NZ conditions. The Toz 99 semi disappointed with accuracy but perhaps another example would shoot better - would have to.

In one particular four semiauto 22 side-by-side comparison for a magazine article a few years ago, I had a bit of fun with a Toz 99, ruger 10/22, Marlin 795 and Marlin 60. Ran them all through a heap of ammos, then driilled into the ones with which they shot best. The little marlins ran rings round the others on the range - in fact it was a treat coming back to them to shoot groups. All of the semis had ammo preferences and dislikes, but to my surprise over several hundred rounds the marlins also cycled best. Result was Marlin 60 1st, Marlin 795 2nd, then big gap back to Ruger 3rd and Toz 4th. This particular 10/22 was the most accurate stock rifle one I've used and had a 0.75" best and four group average of 1.04". Its only the averages that tell a true rifle's story.

Would like to play with the little Beretta semi - was tempted a while back. As an older Euro parts would be an issue if its under heavy use and wear and tear, but fun to play with.

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## timattalon

I would like to add a few comments. Knowing both Gundoc and Mudgripz, I have perhaps a better understanding of where they are coming from. I have a lot of respect for Gundocs experience and knowledge. And I know the extent to which Mudgripz tests the rifles and he knows his stuff. 

We sell the Toz 78s and the Toz 99s. And they come with spare magazines. If accuracy is more important, I would still say the bolt is the best way to go. The 78 will out shoot the 99 (semi auto) pretty much every time. But reliability of both will stand up against any other rifle. PM me or check trade me. I may still have a Sobol (Sporting version of the biathlon mentioned earlier.) But hey aint cheap and the Toz will usually be what I suggest.

With the Ruger 10/22 debate, I have had a few. I cannot comment on good ones versus bad ones but I know from my own experience, age matters. Older ones (pre 90s) seem to be of a better quality control than some of the ones in the 90s. And I had a bad experience with one of those and stayed away from them for the last 15 years. I own one now, though and am happy with it. Same for the Norinco. Some of the older ones circa 80s and 90s are much better made than SOME of the later ones. Hint: avoid any norinco that is branded polytech. I am yet to see a good one.....and consistent quality with that particular version seems to be an issue.

The EM332 is a very underrated rifle. If you get the chance grab one.

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## hunter308

My late 80's to early 90's series marlin model 60 is the best .22 I have ever owned I have had norinco both Jw15 and em332, toz 03-17, remington 597 and did not like any of them mainly due to poor shoulder fit but that marlin model60 you would have to pry it out of my cold dead hands before I ever give it up.

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## res

> The EM332 is a very underrated rifle. If you get the chance grab one.


Would if I could, be nice if another shipment of them came in

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## grunzter

Interesting look... if you are into that type of thing...

22LR JW-25A Mauser 98 Style

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## mudgripz

Post a pic Hamish - let's have a look at it. You'd probably want a norinco or Toz or something to do the hard yakka when things get marked up, but Beretta/Unique etc a treat to take out now and then. 

I have not really dug into the earlier americans and there were for the price some quite well made 22s there. Pre mass production days. Some gems that have real character like early Remingtons, Winchesters and also Aussie Sportco and Lithgow. I learned on I think a Lithgow model 12 - a simple, very accurate little 5 shot. Have my eye open for one but unsure now of bolt movement and scope setup. Some interesting rifles - which alot of guys may have tucked away in closet:

*  Remington 510 targetmaster single, 511 scoremaster 5 shot mag, 512 sportmaster 15 shot tube. Will grab a 512 to do up sometime. Likely side mount for scoping. Often nice timber - 26 barrels. Real character/

*  Winchester 52, 69, 9422 (lovely wee levers)

*  Remington 541T (mmmm..), Remington 581

*  Earlier Mossberg 22s

*  Marlin 981T,  990, 49DL, 39A lever etc  - nicely presented wee units and v accurate

There will be others too - simple, accurate but better made than some current entry level rifles. Some of these rifles offer a genuine alternative to some of the new bolt action 22s and they pop up on trademe for bugger all. If in great nick you wouldn't want to mark them up - and parts again an issue - but as with the euros you definitely buy character.

Gundoc - do you happen to know scoping on the Lithgow 12 - side mount, dovetails or rail? The early Remingtons will I assume be side mount due to bolt movement - but quite a few of these 22s are already tapped for side aperture sights which would be a treat to use if you could find them.

Quite a few interest me - a Lithgow 12, Remington 512, Marlin 981T.  Be good to hear comment/experience on any of these earlier americans - some dam good rifles there for the dollar. Here's a handsome little Marlin 981T of recent years:

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=ma...ml%3B800%3B300

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## mudgripz

Another group of 22s that are often forgotten but are very efficient for hunting are the wee lever actions.

We are lucky here as there are a number of surprisingly good shooters amongst the levers - the Marlin model 39 (Annie Oakley rifle), Winchester 9422 (beautiful wee 22. God uses one), Browning BL22 and Miroku ML22 (same rifle - fine little unit), Ruger 10/22 model 96 (super little hunter - no weaknesses and more accurate than the semiauto). Good wee rifles - all of them.

The Norinco JW21 lever is heavyish with fairly agricultural action but may well have typical norinco accuracy and could be good after a component polish. The Henry H001 (design bought from Erma Werke in Germany and also sold under other names like Iver Johnson/Ithaca etc) looks great and has smooth action but was a real crapper. Heat distortion in thin barrel meant groups opened out after 4-5 shots to 2-4" at 50m. Went back to shop. Winchesters other than the lovely little 9422 were pretty poor - the 150/250 etc - nowhere near the build of the 9422.  

The good levers are great wee hunters when you want a quick action plus safety e.g. when training kids. One of my lads had a 10/22 semi and the other a Ruger model 96 lever and in accuracy speed tests on the range (10 shots into target at 50m measuring speed and accuracy) the little lever wasn't much behind the semiauto timewise, and lever easily outshot the semi on the bench.

We also had a range of pump/slide actions in years past and many reading this will have grown up with them - old Browning trombones, winchester, Remingtons like the 121 and 572, the sportco pump (1970s) and the recent Henry 22 pump. Most will be classics now and after the Henry lever performed so badly I'd be doubtful about the Henry pump.

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## Tentman

Hmm - well I'll be able to give an opinion soon, a Stainless/laminated version of the Marlin model 60 (as new with a 4x scope) came up on TM and now its coming my way.  If it doesn't meet up to the expectations Mudgripz has given us, then you'll see it back here (in BSS) first!!  (just teasing Mudgripz - no pressure !!)  I also have a dark secret that I'll only share after I've shot it.

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## mudgripz

They like to run very clean, almost dry - just one drop of oil max on bolt surfaces, and have distinct ammo preferences like most semiautos. They usually like CCI subs, standard velocity solids for paper, and for HV they like CCI minimags and sometimes aussie Win powerpoints. Good rounds to start with - rifles will vary as usual.

Here's a rimfirecentral sticky with some marlin do's and don'ts on maintenance.      Basic Setup/Maintenance Guidelines for Marlin Semiautos - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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## Tommy

> Hmm - well I'll be able to give an opinion soon, a Stainless/laminated version of the Marlin model 60 (as new with a 4x scope) came up on TM and now its coming my way.  If it doesn't meet up to the expectations Mudgripz has given us, then you'll see it back here (in BSS) first!!  (just teasing Mudgripz - no pressure !!)  I also have a dark secret that I'll only share after I've shot it.


I saw that, very pretty rifle. Made me decide to get one of those stocks from boyds

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## hunter308

> They like to run very clean, almost dry - just one drop of oil max on bolt surfaces, and have distinct ammo preferences like most semiautos. They usually like CCI subs, standard velocity solids for paper, and for HV they like CCI minimags and sometimes aussie Win powerpoints. Good rounds to start with - rifles will vary as usual.
> 
> Here's a rimfirecentral sticky with some marlin do's and don'ts on maintenance.      Basic Setup/Maintenance Guidelines for Marlin Semiautos - RimfireCentral.com Forums


My model 60 hates cci minimags and remington subs but loves HV mexican fiocchi and winchester 42 max HV havent tried any other subs as I do honestly prefer to use high velocity for rabbits and possums

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## Tommy

> My model 60 hates cci minimags and remington subs but loves HV mexican fiocchi and winchester 42 max HV havent tried any other subs as I do honestly prefer to use high velocity for rabbits and possums


My 795 loves the 42gr stuff too but the 40gr won't cycle more than 2 or 3 rounds before it FTL. The Cci supers all cycle but group like a drunk. Power points are excellent in it too. My Brno is accurate with anything

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## hunter308

> My 795 loves the 42gr stuff too but the 40gr won't cycle more than 2 or 3 rounds before it FTL. The Cci supers all cycle but group like a drunk. Power points are excellent in it too. My Brno is accurate with anything


first rabbit I shot in the back of the head with the 42gr stuff gave the rabbit a very messy face when it exited never seen a .22 HV bullet cause so much devastation like that winchester 42 max stuff

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## Tommy

> first rabbit I shot in the back of the head with the 42gr stuff gave the rabbit a very messy face when it exited never seen a .22 HV bullet cause so much devastation like that winchester 42 max stuff


They're just teeny weeny miniature slugs!

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## gimp

@mudgripz please stop calling it a "10/22 model 96", it is 96/22

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## mudgripz

True - details:

Produced 	1996 - 2009 

Variants 	96/17 (.17 HMR)
96/22 (.22 LR)
96/22M (.22 WMR)
96/44 (.44 Mag)

Accurate at 0.7" repeatable best, quick short throw lever, safe manual action for youngsters. 13 year old put 10 shots in a 1" black dot. Gave it heavy use for years - one of the best wee hunters we've had.

Very interesting little Beretta Hamsav - unusual action setup. Good to play with.

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## 10-Ring

I know this is a long shot but my lady friend (can't really call her a girl at 53) has inherited a Baikal T03-17-01 in very good condition apart from missing a magazine. She is an excellent shot and a mad keen rabbit shooter and has asked me to try and locate a mag for the rifle, of which I've failed to do.

Any help or suggestions in locating a magazine for the rifle would be very much appreciated.

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## gimp

Also I agree that there is a paucity of "nice" .22LR rifles. Certainly some of the cheaper ones shoot well, but they're ugly and poorly finished and rather dreadful for that.

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## hunter308

> I know this is a long shot but my lady friend (can't really call her a girl at 53) has inherited a Baikal T03-17-01 in very good condition apart from missing a magazine. She is an excellent shot and a mad keen rabbit shooter and has asked me to try and locate a mag for the rifle, of which I've failed to do.
> 
> Any help or suggestions in locating a magazine for the rifle would be very much appreciated.


PM sent @10-Ring

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## timattalon

> I know this is a long shot but my lady friend (can't really call her a girl at 53) has inherited a Baikal T03-17-01 in very good condition apart from missing a magazine. She is an excellent shot and a mad keen rabbit shooter and has asked me to try and locate a mag for the rifle, of which I've failed to do.
> 
> Any help or suggestions in locating a magazine for the rifle would be very much appreciated.



Unfortunately these magazines are harder to find than a chunk of unicorn poo. They are very good wee rifles. If you have no joy in locating a mag, get a piece of polythene or plastic (or timber) and make a "fake" mag to fill the hole and use it like a single shot. If you locate a mag later then you simply drop out the fake mag and use a real one. 

All the best.

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## hunter308

> Unfortunately these magazines are harder to find than a chunk of unicorn poo. They are very good wee rifles. If you have no joy in locating a mag, get a piece of polythene or plastic (or timber) and make a "fake" mag to fill the hole and use it like a single shot. If you locate a mag later then you simply drop out the fake mag and use a real one. 
> 
> All the best.


Didn't take him long to locate one  :Grin:

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## Nibblet

> Didn't take him long to locate one


Where was the unicorn? Wouldn't mind a fly on one

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## hunter308

> Where was the unicorn? Wouldn't mind a fly on one


It just happened that I had a complete 03-17 that has been sitting in a mates gun cupboard for the last couple of years after I took off to aussie for wheat harvest so when 10-ring asked about a mag for one I offered him what I had as it never shouldered nicely for me anyway  :Thumbsup:

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## 10-Ring

Thanks to hunter308's generosity my friend has a rifle complete with scope and magazine which is in better condition than the one she inherited.




> Unfortunately these magazines are harder to find than a chunk of unicorn poo. They are very good wee rifles. If you have no joy in locating a mag, get a piece of polythene or plastic (or timber) and make a "fake" mag to fill the hole and use it like a single shot. If you locate a mag later then you simply drop out the fake mag and use a real one. 
> 
> All the best.


Thanks for the excellent tip timattalon.

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## hunter308

> Thanks to hunter308's generosity my friend has a rifle complete with scope and magazine which is in better condition than the one she inherited.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the excellent tip timattalon.


the stock was my handy work to tidy it up when I first got it the stock was pretty scratched up. The only original colouring on the stock is in the checkering the amber colour is the oil stain I used to give it colour prior to giving it a dose of tru oil after sanding it back to bare wood.

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## timattalon

> Thanks to hunter308's generosity my friend has a rifle complete with scope and magazine which is in better condition than the one she inherited.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the excellent tip timattalon.


These were (and still are in most cases) very well made and accurate wee shooters. We have located a company that advertises that they still make after market mags for them but they are in Germany and we have not been able to confirm o  make contact as to getting them. As for price......


Without a magazine the Toz 17 seems to sell around the $50 to $75 mark (thats bloody good value for a good wee rifle but people wont pay more for a single shot) up to around $200-$250 for a reasonably good one with a magazine or two. 

Big difference for a magazine.

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## grunzter

I see Savage have a new Semi out... not sure if it has already been mentioned here, but looks interesting...
Savage Arms > Launch > A17

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## res

I'm looking forward to hearing some feedback on it, I love 17hmr and love semiautomatic small game rifles but haven't had the best luck with the two combined with the couple I have tried

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## rambo-6mmrem

if you have the money (about 2k) the kidd is about the best semi auto 22 money can buy 
RIFLES

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## Nick-D

> if you have the money (about 2k) the kidd is about the best semi auto 22 money can buy 
> RIFLES


Yeah man, i've shot a couple, stupidly accurate

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## Gunzrrr

Having a bad day? Any rifle in NZ is expensive - the price you pay for living so far away. I love my 10/22, Weihrauch & Browning .22's.
You raise a good point - has the quality dropped?
35 years ago - my dad bought me a 'cheap' Stirling .22 for $125 and I shot the crap out of it. Today - buying a Ruger or CZ for ~$700+ is way cheaper and they are better quality rifles.
Just a thought ... cheers Gunzrrr

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## rambo-6mmrem

> Yeah man, i've shot a couple, stupidly accurate


I had one for a few years for indoor sporting rifle shooting (25m) toped with a Leopold vx3 6.5-20EFR target scope it was the 16 inch barrel version and could compete with any bolt action on the range I shot 4 top scores 500/500 and my average was 498/500 so yes they are dam accurate
also out of around 20,000 rounds (laupa target ammo) I had one jam I cleaned it every 400 rounds full strip and clean only takes 5 mins exactly the same as a 10/22 just 100 times better accuracy and reliability if you cant afford 2k for a full kid rifle the barrels are $450 and the trigger is about the same and fit it to a 10/22 action and it will be "almost" as good for around $1000 plus the cost of a 2nd hand 10/22 you also may want a few of the smaller bits like the charging rod etc which has interchangeable recoil springs for different ammos

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## 300CALMAN

My first .22 was a Heckler & Koch Model 270 .22 L.R. Semi-Auto, I know these are rare now and yes I regret selling it (when I moved overseas). Very accurate and reliable with beautiful H and K build quality. Only negative is that it would not cycle subs so was not worth suppressing.

If you see one on offer especially with the original peep hole open sights grab it!

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## northdude

> Yeah man, i've shot a couple, stupidly accurate


 you'd hope so at 2k plus

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## rambo-6mmrem

> you'd hope so at 2k plus


You get what you pay for

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