# Firearms and Shooting > Pistol Shooting >  The future of 3gun in nz?

## rusl

Obviously center fire 3gun is dead, is any one considering running 3gun matches using 10 shot 22s and limited capacity shotguns?

Is this somthing people are interested in doing, it would involve altering the courses of fire a bit but I think it could still be fun and possibly encourage more people to give it a crack as the dollar outlay would be substantially less.

Just trying to get  feel if there's any support for it or others thoughts, it would be a shame to see I die off completely here in nz, I didn't even get to shoot a match I've spent the last year and a half getting endorsments and saving/buying gear and now it's gone.

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## dannyb

@R93

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## Micky Duck

pretty sure the cowboy action crowd do actually do a "3 gun" compitition....revolver,SxS coachgun and lever action rifle.....
the sport as you have known it might be dead in the water...but it COULD reform in some other shape or form...

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## Rushy

I still want to understand the real story about Pistol Carbine conversion kit.

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## mikee

> pretty sure the cowboy action crowd do actually do a "3 gun" compitition....revolver,SxS coachgun and lever action rifle.....
> the sport as you have known it might be dead in the water...but it COULD reform in some other shape or form...


I shot 3 gun proper. The whole dressing up/ silly name thing just didn't do it for me. From memory you cannot shoot on the move or move with a loaded chamber.
I would think there may be a chance of using 10 shot .22 semi's but

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## mikee

> I still want to understand the real story about Pistol Carbine conversion kit.


um because its a: scary and b: only the police and gubbermint employees are qualified enough to use them and c: because we said so

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## Rushy

> um because its a: scary and b: only the police and gubbermint employees are qualified enough to use them and c: because we said so


That is all hearsay and speculation Mikee.  Ha ha ha ha. At the end of the day things like the Roni and KPOS conversion kits are not firearms, they are only bits of aluminium.

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## mikee

> That is all hearsay and speculation Mikee.  Ha ha ha ha. At the end of the day things like the Roni and KPOS conversion kits are not firearms, they are only bits of aluminium.


we know that but again 


> because its a: scary and b: only the police and gubbermint employees are qualified enough to use them and c: because we said so


My best mate lived for shooting 3 gun and he still is not sure what he did so wrong to be punished like this, me neither

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## Micky Duck

> I shot 3 gun proper. The whole dressing up/ silly name thing just didn't do it for me. From memory you cannot shoot on the move or move with a loaded chamber.
> I would think there may be a chance of using 10 shot .22 semi's but


I wasnt suggesting you did do the dressing up/silly name thing........was more pointing out that other folk DO shoot competition with 3 different firearms.... there is no reason you couldnt do the same as you were doing with different firearms by tweaking the how you do it somewhat.
the 3 gun thing.......to me means ...3 guns,what 3 and how they used is up to you....years back the deerstalkers had a triangle shoot centrefire,22lr and shotgun. food for thought.

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## 40mm

> I still want to understand the real story about Pistol Carbine conversion kit.


Shit, if they let those kits fly then I expect my .45acp carbine to be given the tick too.
I love shooting that thing, have hoarded tons of brass and bits for it now just as I'm starting to get right into it, the rug has been sold out from under me  :Sad:

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## Towely

3gun needs to continue to be run to ipsc rules imho. Sticking .22lr rifles into the mix fucks it right up, not sure what phil is planning but 22lr rifle should probably be adapted to multigun only, i cant see the sub calibre attracting too much interest from any of us that are still serious about shooting ipsc rifle.

Manual action rifle is an official ipsc rifle division and my guess is thats where 3gun rifle is headed. The capacity limit to shotgun is what has fucked this whole sport up completely. That single change has made some of the better shooters of 3gun in NZ quit the sport.

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## rusl

When you say manual action rifle what does that look like? Are we talking a short timed / precision section using bolt actions or still a fast paced  close range kind of shooting?

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## Cordite

> 3gun needs to continue to be run to ipsc rules imho. Sticking .22lr rifles into the mix fucks it right up, not sure what phil is planning but 22lr rifle should probably be adapted to multigun only, i cant see the sub calibre attracting too much interest from any of us that are still serious about shooting ipsc rifle.
> 
> Manual action rifle is an official ipsc rifle division and my guess is thats where 3gun rifle is headed. The capacity limit to shotgun is what has fucked this whole sport up completely. That single change has made some of the better shooters of 3gun in NZ quit the sport.


Not quite the same, but not hopeless.  You hardly see it in real time, slow mo required.

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## Micky Duck

6 shots...if that isnt enough for current compitition make it 6gun and use 2 of each...or 18 gun and use 3 of each.... make them standard so it only needs 3 guys with same to have enough...... there is a way....you just need to think outside of the box to find it....
if formular1 motor racing had drastic rule change say complete ban on fairings and slick tyres..... you would still have formular1 just different. slower and more slipping n sliding but still F1. chin up.

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## Cordite

> 6 shots...if that isnt enough for current compitition make it 6gun and use 2 of each...or 18 gun and use 3 of each.... make them standard so it only needs 3 guys with same to have enough...... there is a way....you just need to think outside of the box to find it....
> if formular1 motor racing had drastic rule change say complete ban on fairings and slick tyres..... you would still have formular1 just different. slower and more slipping n sliding but still F1. chin up.


Not sure if gun grabbers have genuine sympathy for people threatening to spit the dummy out on a particular shooting discipline, or on shooting altogether.  Expect no mercy.

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## gundoc

When we started IPSC 3-gun shooting in 1983 we had to do it by working around all sorts of Police and Pistol Assn rules that were put in our way.  It is not about the firearm but the skill of the user.  If everyone is restricted to 10 round manual operation centrefire rifles and 5 round shotguns then so be it.  In all sports it is the skill of the participant that wins the day.  Semi-autos may make it easier and quicker but the more skilled shooters are still the ones that win.  Don't fall into the same twisted 'logic' of our lawmakers and believe that the equipment is the most important component.  It is not!  It is individual skill!  The old .303 Lee Enfield is capable of over 40 aimed shots per minute, starting with an empty rifle, one magazine, and loose ammo. A modern 60 degree lift bolt action with a belt full of 10 round mags must be competitive to an experienced shooter!

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## Towely

Manual action means you simply cycle the firearm manualy between shots. The main difference between semi auto and manual action divisions is that semi autos need 2 scoring shots per target and manual action scores just 1 shot per target. Its the domain of the bolt action or pump gun. I look foward to the challenge of it.

Shotgun is fucking dead to me, i spent alot of money setting up a standard shotgun and belt setup. Then they changed the rules and went away from grand tournament scoring so i had to spend alot more money to set up a fucking box fed shotgun and belt rig to stay in open division. If the capacity change had been more reasonable i just may have gone through it all again to continue to play the game but i think my time is finished in 3 gun  :Angry: 

If you want fast paced shooting then i suggest multigun, ipsc 3gun wont give you that buzz because of the way its scored.

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## R93

> @R93


We are just toying with an idea now.
It won't be happening for a while if it does. 

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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## Cordite

> When we started IPSC 3-gun shooting in 1983 we had to do it by working around all sorts of Police and Pistol Assn rules that were put in our way.  It is not about the firearm but the skill of the user.  If everyone is restricted to 10 round manual operation centrefire rifles and 5 round shotguns then so be it.  In all sports it is the skill of the participant that wins the day.  Semi-autos may make it easier and quicker but the more skilled shooters are still the ones that win.  Don't fall into the same twisted 'logic' of our lawmakers and believe that the equipment is the most important component.  It is not!  It is individual skill!  The old .303 Lee Enfield is capable of over 40 aimed shots per minute, starting with an empty rifle, one magazine, and loose ammo. A modern 60 degree lift bolt action with a belt full of 10 round mags must be competitive to an experienced shooter!


If I may add that the old bolt action battle rifles were also slowed by recoil recovery.  The .223 or 7.62x39 cartridge produce about half the recoil of a .303, and .303 battle rifles could have done with muzzle brakes.

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## johnd

Countries have lived with rule changes before ( admittedly not as drastic as our new laws ) Canada had a 10 rd mag limit?IIRC
I cant see a lot of IPSC 3 gun International events being held in NZ again.
But with the ability to manual load within the mag capacity rules and IPSC rules, those that want to will still be able to shoot
Cant wait to see an SMLE comped  :Pacman:  for major PF

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## Cordite

> Countries have lived with rule changes before ( admittedly not as drastic as our new laws ) Canada had a 10 rd mag limit?IIRC
> I cant see a lot of IPSC 3 gun International events being held in NZ again.
> But with the ability to manual load within the mag capacity rules and IPSC rules, those that want to will still be able to shoot
> Cant wait to see an SMLE comped  for major PF


Braked and with .303 cases loaded with pulled 7.62x39 bullets and loads, just need to get near to max COAL or the rimlock interruption in the design does not work.

Here is a Bloke on the Range video showing his Australian "Frankenrifle" conversion to 7.62x39 with external AK mag.  Could do well with a red dot and a brake.

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## Howa1500

Yeah screw using 22 semis either pistol carbines or pump arsmy understanding is proper carbines under 30 inches are legal even if the police dont believe this,I reckon fight the hell out of them as PCCs are still legal and then go coz scorpions/dig mod etc

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## gundoc

> Yeah screw using 22 semis either pistol carbines or pump ar’smy understanding is proper carbines under 30 inches are legal even if the police don’t believe this,I reckon fight the hell out of them as PCC’s are still legal and then go coz scorpions/dig mod etc


If your PCC is below 30" (762mm) then it is legally still a pistol and can be used on any pistol range.

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## rusl

Good to see interest in the sport continuing, I thought pcc's were now gone aswell but hav'nt had an official word on it yet. 

I'm interested to see where the sport heads, 22s interests me but so does manual rifle depending how a course of fire run. I guess it's up to the shooters to attend the events and keep it alive.

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## Kiwigunguy

This is a topic that really intrigued me, so I decided to do some digging on what options are out there.
I took some cues from what is used in Australia for Practical Shooting these days.
I certainly agree that being relegated to 22s in 3 Gun is bullshit and should be avoided.
That being said, 22 Magnum semi autos wouldnt be quite as bad.

I'm excluding pistol carbine stocks and pump action AR conversions while their legality is still in the air.
I will address those later when we have more reliable information.

For the most part we'll be looking at bolt action and pump action centrefire rifles, although I have included some more unusual choices as well.
The main factors that dictated my choices were that the rifles had to be fast cycling and able to be reloaded fairly quickly, so either detachable magazines or stripper clips.
While a Marlin 336 or Winchester 1894 might work, I doubt a Lebel would. If you like lever guns, try something mag-fed like the Browning BLR or Henry Long Ranger.

First, I want to establish that bolt action rifles can be fired and reloaded very quickly.
Here are some videos of Stangskyting, a type of competition shooting in Norway.
Competitors have 25 seconds to put as many rounds as possible on targets at ranges of 150-250 metres.
They use Sauer 200 STR bolt actions in 6.5x55 with iron sights and 5 round detachable box magazines.
They previously used Krag-Jorgensen and Mauser bolt actions, with quite a lot of success.
Current military shooters are allowed to use an AG3 (H&K G3 variant) or an HK416, but are still limited to 5 rounds per magazine in competition.
Despite having semi automatic rifles, the military shooters are routinely beaten by the shooters with bolt actions.
The competitions are very well attended and are broadcast on TV nationwide.
Here, take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsYpMzuArbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EuvkUAHEDg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrtI8wDj3aQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfY899uNOk0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC4_g6N3aLA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cnAwRJc7Sw


While those Sauer 200 STRs would be far too heavy for 3 Gun, a near identical action is available in the Sauer 100 series, which is much lighter and sold here.
The Mauser M18 features the same lightning-fast 60 degree bolt action and 5 round detachable magazines as the Sauer 100.

Another option would be to run a mil-surp bolt action with stripper clips. Lee Enfield variants would definitely do well.
Mauser bolt actions would work also, as would straight pulls like the Swiss K11 or K31. Hell, you could probably make a Carcano work.

A more modern bolt action option would be some form of scout rifle.
Scout rifles typically use 10 round detachable box magazines and are set up to be light and handy.
Steyr, Ruger, Savage, Sabatti, and Howa all make scout or scout-like rifles.

Any short throw bolt action should work, such as the Steyr Pro Hunter, Ruger American, Tikka T3, and Sako A7 and 85.
The Ruger American even takes AR mags in 223, Accuracy International mags in 308, and Mini 30 mags in 7.62x39.

There are also mag well adaptors made by Pacific Tool and Gauge that will allow the use of AR mags in the Remington 700.

If you want something wacky try the Voere S16, which is a light weight 223 bolt action that takes AR magazines horizontally from the left.
It comes with either a lightweight carbon barrel or an fully-integrally-suppressed one.

That brings us to the pump action rifles.
Im sure youre aware of the pump action ARs made by Troy Industries.
They look good but their reputation isnt great. I also cant recommend supporting Troy Industries either, due to their anti-gun business practices.

Kalashnikov introduced an awesome pump action 223 AK variant called the KSZ-223, but it was only made in a limited run for Russian IPSC shooters in 2017.

The most widely used pump action centrefire rifles are the Remington 7600 Police and 7615 Police.
Youll find plenty of them around in Australia, often totally tricked out.
The 7600 and 7615 have very similar ergonomics to the 870 and are compatible with a wide variety of parts and accessories.
They are somewhat pricey, but fast and easy to use. Probably one of the best all around options.

We arent completely screwed when it comes to shotguns either.
The 5 round limit applies only to the largest shell size the gun is chambered for, so if your 3 or 3.5 gun can hold 6 or 7 2.75 shells youre still good to go.
Also, the way the law is written, it appears that detachable mag semi auto shotguns are still legal as long as they hold 5 rounds or less.
Being limited to 5 rounds also gives us a good excuse to start running entry shotguns, which typically have a 14 barrel combined with a +1 extension.
They are very compact and handy while still having decent capacity. I plan on building something like that in the near future.
Ive noticed that Gun City have finally started bringing in the Mossberg Maverick 88 5 shot 18.5 model, which in my experience handles much better than the 20 8 shot models.
Those would be an excellent value choice, especially for beginners.

Here are some photos of the Kalashnikov KSZ-223 and some Remington 7600s and 7615s.

Cheers,
Kiwigunguy

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## jackson21

I had also been thinking about this, more in a belligerent attempt to keep sport going that they are trying to wipe out. Used to enjoy the Sunday hit out with some good jokers for the social aspect more than anything. Always lot's of smiley faces at Multi-gun!

While you can still do pistol fine, shotgun I guess more reloads, I did kinda like the idea of having a rifle marksman type stage 100-200m as anyone can pretty much Russell up a .223 bolt of some sort with scope that if shooting reasonably fast money/technology would not come into play on this part of equipment. 
Only problem is having a long enough range to do it as most pistol clubs have very short ones, would be cool though as bring in a broader range of skills than just blazing away at close targets.
Having to run to a longer range huffing and puffing to finish off with some measured longer shots under pressure with reactive or steel targets would be cool.
Even using a Lee-Enfield would be fun and part of our history, plenty of those around cheap, or people already have them.
Was thinking of putting my 1-4 Trijicon on my Jungle Carbine anyway.

Don't thing I could get into using Lever guns for Multi, nothing against them as like them but just doesn't seem the right fit to me for some reason. Maybe best just to leave them to Cowboy section.
Pump, yeah maybe. Just more mag changes again.

In the shorter term PCC looks like it will be the way forward. Factory pistols with up-graded triggers, aftermarket barrels, handloaded hollow points in a stock should shoot really well inside 100m. Also means you could use same mags, probably pay to have 2 pistols same rather than trying to put the glock in the box during course of fire.


I think at the end of the day once the dust settles we'll be trying to do something faster than one another with something that goes bang.

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## jackson21

> This is a topic that really intrigued me, so I decided to do some digging on what options are out there.
> I took some cues from what is used in Australia for Practical Shooting these days.
> I certainly agree that being relegated to 22s in 3 Gun is bullshit and should be avoided.
> That being said, 22 Magnum semi autos wouldn’t be quite as bad.
> 
> I'm excluding pistol carbine stocks and pump action AR conversions while their legality is still in the air.
> I will address those later when we have more reliable information.
> 
> For the most part we'll be looking at bolt action and pump action centrefire rifles, although I have included some more unusual choices as well.
> ...


Those guys are really good! 
Noticed on last video the guys trigger finger is second one down, interesting.

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## Kiwigunguy

Yeah, that's the correct technique for speed shooting bolt actions, particularly Lee Enfields. If you haven't tried it, you should. It's heaps of fun.

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## jackson21

> Yeah, that's the correct technique for speed shooting bolt actions, particularly Lee Enfields. If you haven't tried it, you should. It's heaps of fun.


Yeah, thinking I might get my old family hand-me-down shitta .303 re-barrelled at some stage and make some use of it.

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## Cordite

> Yeah, thinking I might get my old family hand-me-down shitta .303 re-barrelled at some stage and make some use of it.


Try fat lead boolits first, might hold a surprise.

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## Towely

Is that sport in the above videos always shot prone? Is there any movement or shooting around/through/under barricades/obstacles or from positions designed to be tricky to the shooter? And do they have a power factor of some description? Genuine questions.

Phils talking of maybe using ipsc mini rifle which is 22lr and colour coding targets on the longer distance ranges, it could work but sounds messy. But might be what happens when we run rifle nats next year.

Can you please point me to the wording that may still allow box fed shotguns to exist? Very interested in your answer to this one!

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## Cordite

> Is that sport in the above videos always shot prone? Is there any movement or shooting around/through/under barricades/obstacles or from positions designed to be tricky to the shooter? And do they have a power factor of some description? Genuine questions.
> 
> Phils talking of maybe using ipsc mini rifle which is 22lr and colour coding targets on the longer distance ranges, it could work but sounds messy. But might be what happens when we run rifle nats next year.
> 
> *Can you please point me to the wording that may still allow box fed shotguns to exist?* Very interested in your answer to this one!


Arms act wording:

2A Meaning of prohibited firearm
In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, *prohibited firearm

(a) means any of the following firearms:

(i) a semi-automatic firearm (except a pistol), other than*

      (A) a semi-automatic firearm that is capable of firing only 0.22 calibre or lower rimfire cartridges and that has a magazine, whether or not detachable or otherwise externally fed, that is capable of holding no more than 10 cartridges commensurate with that firearms chamber size:

     (B) a semi-automatic shotgun with a non-detachable tubular magazine or magazines that are capable of holding no more than 5 cartridges commensurate with that firearms chamber size:

(ii) a pump-action shotgun that is capable of being used with a detachable magazine:

(iii)a pump-action shotgun that has a non-detachable tubular magazine or magazines that are capable of holding more than 5 cartridges commensurate with that firearms chamber size:


The way I read this...
- semi shotguns may have only tubular magazines, and max 5 shell mag capacity.
- pump action shotguns may have tubular mags with max five shell capacity, OR fixed (non detachable) box mags with 5 shell max capacity.

So box mags are out for all practical time saving purposes, unless you miraculously manage to make them double stack, double feed and loadable by 5-shell stripper clips.  You can get speed loaders for tubular mags though, which have an advantage over the stripper-fed box mag that they may be topped up any time and with the gun in battery, safety rules permitting.

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## Kiwigunguy

> Is that sport in the above videos always shot prone? Is there any movement or shooting around/through/under barricades/obstacles or from positions designed to be tricky to the shooter? And do they have a power factor of some description? Genuine questions.
> 
> Phils talking of maybe using ipsc mini rifle which is 22lr and colour coding targets on the longer distance ranges, it could work but sounds messy. But might be what happens when we run rifle nats next year.
> 
> Can you please point me to the wording that may still allow box fed shotguns to exist? Very interested in your answer to this one!


Yes it's always shot prone. Those rifles are over 5kg, so it wouldn't really be practical to shoot them offhand or to have a lot of movement with the rifle.
The rifle is tightly sling to the left arm, which is why they only reload with the right hand, even on the G3 where the charging handle is on the left side.
You'd want to use the much lighter Sauer 100, 101, or 202 that use the same action for anything requiring fast movement and offhand shooting.

I got the detachable mag thing from a knowledgeable person I trust, although I wasn't 100% clear how they came to that conclusion.
It could be wrong for all I know. Then again, I'm not a lawyer, so take it with a grain of salt...

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## Towely

I thought that may be the case. If youre wanting to be competitive in ipsc rifle now youre going to want to be shooting a pump gun.

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## rusl

Interesting watching thos vids it would appear they are using thier middle or ring finger on the trigger so they can leave the hand still on the bolt, that's how it looks to me any way. Interesting new technique to learn.

Good to see there's plenty of interest in keeping the sport going, I have been thinking that if using pcc's or 22s it may open up more ranges as our range is no rifles excet 22,  I am guessing there are other ranges around with a similar setup that could possibly be opened up to 3 gun as well.

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## jackson21

Weight and sling explains a few things as was thinking their recoil control was outstanding. Wouldn't be surprised if shooting mild loads as well I was thinking?
Guess they must have a power factor to meet though?

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## Kiwigunguy

> Weight and sling explains a few things as was thinking their recoil control was outstanding. Wouldn't be surprised if shooting mild loads as well I was thinking?
> Guess they must have a power factor to meet though?


I'm fairly certain there is a power factor. They do need to shoot out to about 300m and they would probably want their ammo to be as flat shooting as possible.
It's probably similar to off the shelf or mil spec 6.5x55. They need a mirage strap for less than 20 rounds, so it must be putting some serious heat into a barrel that heavy.

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## 308mate

I agree with previous comments, pump rifles will be the way to go I think. I have a Kriss DMK .22lr it's great but it's no centrefire.

Those troy pumps can be quite quick.   

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=OkzzC01KodE

https://youtu.be/L64RRs6R0rg

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