# Hunting > Hunting >  .222 .223 .222mag .5.56.. THE CALIBRE OF CHOICE FOR MANY HUNTERS

## Scribe

Attachment 27482

In the professional field of hunting.
 Bullet placement is of course the essence with these calibres as IS TRUE with every other calibre. An animal can only be so dead and a gut shot or leg shot is the same by any other calibre. Place any of these bullets above, forward of the last rib into the engine room of a deer and its yours. Remember one thing though, its not where the bullet hits an animal it is the path through the animal that counts.

Bush bucking capabilities of these rounds is not great but neither is the bush bucking capabilities of any high powered rifle. If you don't believe this then try firing a magazine of tracer 308 3006 303 on automatic into a forest at night you end up with a Catherine Wheel Effect of spinning bullet fragments that will come half way back to meet you.

In the NZFS in the sixty and seventies you could use whatever calibre you wanted but you were only supplied with 2 .270 and 3 .222 rounds per kill. Among the hunters I worked with and knew, the vast majority used the deadly little Sako Vixen .222. Second most popular calibre was the 243, the boys using this calibre, would trade the 270 rounds at the local sports store for powder and projectiles.

 I can only ever remember losing about one deer a month using the .222 and I wouldnt mind a dollar for every hour I have spent on my hands and knees blood trailing deer shot with other calibres 303's, 308's, 3006's and in particular 270's. The NZFS at this time had CAC producing a 270 rounds stamped on the base NZFS, using a 130 gr bullet that was spectacularly ineffective. When I started as a shooter I replaced a guy who had an accident and he was on 35th one shot kill so far that month using a .222.

My current and preferred deer rifle to this day is a Sako Vixen that began its life as a .222 and was re-barreled for .222 mag. This is a great cartridge and I used it until I started aerial shooting using an ar15 that I eventually brought. I then had the vixen re barrelled in .223 to use the same ammo. I have used a lot of 5.56x45 FMJ on deer with outstanding success. In the aerial shooting game many firms started there shooter of with the sig 308's but most gravitated quickly to the .223 an ar15, Ruger, HnK. 

Big deer, little deer, Red, Sambar, sika, fallow, wapiti, thar and chammy, never mind, they have all fallen in their thousands to the deadly family of cartridges above. So if you are sharing a hut with another bunch of hunters and there is an old bugger there with a well used Sako .222 keep your eye on him because he is probably a big tallyman in a previous life and he will clean out the valley.      

The Contract shooters of this day that I am in touch with all use .223. for goat control and deer control.  
As professionals shooters like us, they pride themselve's on having the best tools for the job. 

On the subject of range. I shoot with people who have found the lure of the long range calibre irresistible. They say we can shoot deer at 800 metres. I say I cant see the point in that as I have still got to wander over and carry the meat back or take its tail, so I would rather wander within 300 metres and put a neat hole through its ribs. A neat little hole  that spoils no meat and I can block with a plug of moss dipped in pepper or flyspray to stop the flies from blowing the bullet wound.

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## Gibo

Keep going  :Grin:  I was getting into that  :Wink:

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## Scouser

+1 Excellent scribe.......love learning new stuff all the time on our brilliant forum.....

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## Daggers_187

I already sold my AR. It's underpowered. I'm going to 76mm Shoulder fired. It's so ethical that i'm actually helping children in Gaza when I shoot a deer with it.

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## Scribe

A couple of my old kill sheets turned up in a cleanout of the Old Forestry Base. I would have used less than half of my allotted 3 .222 rounds per animal as we all finished the season with hundreds of rounds up our sleeve. These and what DOC has supplied me over the years have kept me pretty with rounds for all the meat hunting I do. I have reloaded for all the varieties of trebbly's above except the .222. I like using a long barrel for max speed and accuracy and 55gr hornady projectiles. I have gone away from the heavier projectiles as I think the above rounds are in better balance with the fast 55grainers.

Eugene Stoner was the man???. Experimented with the .222 and upgraded it. Designed the 5.56x45 around the requirement that it must penetrate the standard steal helmet a 500yds. So penetrating the shoulder of a large stag is not a big ask.

Stable in flight but becomes unstable in contact with flesh. Delivers Hydrostatic shock to an unquantifiable degree.

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## PERRISCICABA

> Attachment 27484
> 
> A couple of my old kill sheets turned up in a cleanout of the Old Forestry Base. I would have used less than half of my allotted 3 .222 rounds per animal as we all finished the season with hundreds of rounds up our sleeve. These and what DOC has supplied me over the years have kept me pretty with rounds for all the meat hunting I do. I have reloaded for all the varieties of trebbly's above except the .222. I like using a long barrel for max speed and accuracy and 55gr hornady projectiles. I have gone away from the heavier projectiles as I think the above rounds are in better balance with the fast 55grainers.
> 
> Eugene Stoner was the man???. Experimented with the .222 and upgraded it. Designed the 5.56x45 around the requirement that it must penetrate the standard steal helmet a 500yds. So penetrating the shoulder of a large stag is not a big ask.
> 
> Stable in flight but becomes unstable in contact with flesh. Delivers Hydrostatic shock to an unquantifiable degree.


Impressive! Legend! 
Thank you for share.

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## Matt2308

Scribe, I have read that the .222 FMJ would tumble dramatically as it cut it's path through a deer. Did you find this to be the case?  This would perhaps explain one of the reasons why it kills better than would be expected.
In the right hands with good bullet construction and shot placement, taking deer with a .22 centrefire is not a problem at sensible ranges. Get these factors wrong and things can go pretty ugly!

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## res

My only problem with .223 on deer (I have shot deer with .223 for the record) is that people often consider all ammo the same-I have seen a mate shoot a deer with a round that was made for varmints (he thought that as it was a "hunting" round it was ok) and the image has stuck with me,I also shot the deer and it went down(7mm08) and seeing the crater my mate caused,in the right place for the record, was horrific. 
Can a 22 cal projectile do the job? 
Hell yes! 
Is it what I would recommend to a new hunter? 
Hell no!
I have also killed game with arrows and bolts, perfectly capable in the right hands but also not what I would recommend to a new hunter. 

This debate has played out over a few threads, and I am concerned that to someone only reading one of the threads that the message may be lost. 
We are in a world where most people new to a activity google it, so even if they do not engage in a forum,the info from any thread could/can highly influence them as they get started.  As most new hunters do not have the upbringing and guidance that a lot of us have had.

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## Scribe

> Scribe, I have read that the .222 FMJ would tumble dramatically as it cut it's path through a deer. Did you find this to be the case?  This would perhaps explain one of the reasons why it kills better than would be expected.
> In the right hands with good bullet construction and shot placement, taking deer with a .22 centrefire is not a problem at sensible ranges. Get these factors wrong and things can go pretty ugly!


Hi Matt, I havnt had experience with .222 FMJ. But I have had a fair bit with 5.56 FMJ. First in Vietnam, I never carried the Armalite, I carried the M60. But I did closely examine some of the wounds made by this evil little bullet and said 'Lord if I am Going to be hit with anything let it not be with one of these little bastards". The entry would be a small innocuous looking pinhole with a 4 inch circle of blue destroyed flesh caused by the hydro static shock. If the projectile had hit bone the exit had to be seen to be believed. A bullet that passed through and arm would blacken the flesh from nearly the elbow to the shoulder.

This projectile was barely stable in flight but being pointed and boat tailed it had little surface area to keep it stable in flesh. The m16 and its attendant ammo 'I think' came very close breaching the Geneva Convention I can remember quite a fuss about it at the time.

I liked using the FMJ from the air on deer targeting the head neck and spine.

I even got a bit cocky in an ammunition crisis and started using the 5.56 in my .222 mag though the chamber was a little long. The experts warned against it and they were right. I blew the extractor out of the Vixen and got a snout full of hot particles it was a cheap lesson I suppose.

The 45gr were effective because they were hard and they were really travelling. Some loads were reputed to be up around the 3500 fps.

I do believe that the whole trebbly family has a killing power way beyond what you would expect from its statistics. I still watch with amazement as a stag hit through the shoulder can just buckle and hit the ground. Or I pull the engine out of a deer and find splits in the deers liver from the projectile passing through 18 inches away and the rest of the organs bruised and torn from the hydrolic effect of the fast expanding bullet and I say fuuuucccckkk.

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## Scribe

> My only problem with .223 on deer (I have shot deer with .223 for the record) is that people often consider all ammo the same-I have seen a mate shoot a deer with a round that was made for varmints (he thought that as it was a "hunting" round it was ok) and the image has stuck with me,I also shot the deer and it went down(7mm08) and seeing the crater my mate caused,in the right place for the record, was horrific. 
> Can a 22 cal projectile do the job? 
> Hell yes! 
> Is it what I would recommend to a new hunter? 
> Hell no!
> I have also killed game with arrows and bolts, perfectly capable in the right hands but also not what I would recommend to a new hunter. 
> 
> This debate has played out over a few threads, and I am concerned that to someone only reading one of the threads that the message may be lost. 
> We are in a world where most people new to a activity google it, so even if they do not engage in a forum,the info from any thread could/can highly influence them as they get started.  As most new hunters do not have the upbringing and guidance that a lot of us have had.


Hi res, Perhaps its time someone put a picture of a deer up here with the bullet strike area for a killing shot marked in red. We then would find that the target area is identical for a Trebble two as it is for any of the other reputed deer rifles. There are after all no degrees of dead.

Unfortunately it would not show the angles of the bullets travel through the deer which is so important.

I like to encourage woman and boys to use the Trebbly family. One.. it does away with the flinch.. Two it handles like a .22 off the shoulder. Three.. Ammo is cheap and they get plenty of practice on rabbits, hares, wallabies.

Quite quickly they learn to select the part of the animal they want to hit rather than aiming at the whole animal as some do with the larger calibres. This is a bit of a generalization.

With practise you can ride the bullet all the way to the target and see the hair flick as the bullet hits. The moment you know where the bullet hits you know what the animal is going to do next.

Neck.. down, thump.  
Shoulder...stumble, wheel down hill, fall dead.
Heart...Mad dash, will go up to one hundred yds and die in mid flight.
Lungs...Stand, walk backwards, stumble, crash, head swinging, dead .
Liver...Stand, ears droop, walk 30 yards, lie down, die quietly.

Heart... is a shot to be avoided. I find deer in the bush that have died and the shooter has not been aware he has even hit the animal. As the heart shot animal flees look for ears held at an unusual angle.

Lung shoot.. The leader of two deer and you will get to shoot the other as it will hold as long as the other stays on its feet.

Liver shoot.. The leader of a mob of five and He/She will move quietly at a walk and lie down and die quietly and you will get the lot. This shot is used a lot on velvety stags on steep faces so they don't crash down and destroy there velvet.

Ethics aside, I bet many trebbly users are still using these shots today. I do. Remember these shots apply generally to all calibre's but particularly to the Trebblys.

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## res

No problem with anything your saying three at all!
Some bow hunting sites have good graphics showing arrow path thru thru an animal, someone smarter than me could make a firearm version-it would be a good thing for all new hunters to see

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## Scouser

> Hi res, Perhaps its time someone put a picture of a deer up here with the bullet strike area for a killing shot marked in red. We then would find that the target area is identical for a Trebble two as it is for any of the other reputed deer rifles. There are after all no degrees of dead.
> 
> Unfortunately it would not show the angles of the bullets travel through the deer which is so important.
> 
> I like to encourage woman and boys to use the Trebbly family. One.. it does away with the flinch.. Two it handles like a .22 off the shoulder. Three.. Ammo is cheap and they get plenty of practice on rabbits, hares, wallabies.
> 
> Quite quickly they learn to select the part of the animal they want to hit rather than aiming at the whole animal as some do with the larger calibres. This is a bit of a generalization.
> 
> With practise you can ride the bullet all the way to the target and see the hair flick as the bullet hits. The moment you know where the bullet hits you know what the animal is going to do next.
> ...


Brilliant again mate, just upped my hunting knowledge big time.......big thanks

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## TeRei

> Hi Matt, I havnt had experience with .222 FMJ. But I have had a fair bit with 5.56 FMJ. First in Vietnam, I never carried the Armalite, I carried the M60. But I did closely examine some of the wounds made by this evil little bullet and said 'Lord if I am Going to be hit with anything let it not be with one of these little bastards". The entry would be a small innocuous looking pinhole with a 4 inch circle of blue destroyed flesh caused by the hydro static shock. If the projectile had hit bone the exit had to be seen to be believed. A bullet that passed through and arm would blacken the flesh from nearly the elbow to the shoulder.
> 
> This projectile was barely stable in flight but being pointed and boat tailed it had little surface area to keep it stable in flesh. The m16 and its attendant ammo 'I think' came very close breaching the Geneva Convention I can remember quite a fuss about it at the time.
> 
> I liked using the FMJ from the air on deer targeting the head neck and spine.
> 
> I even got a bit cocky in an ammunition crisis and started using the 5.56 in my .222 mag though the chamber was a little long. The experts warned against it and they were right. I blew the extractor out of the Vixen and got a snout full of hot particles it was a cheap lesson I suppose.
> 
> The 45gr were effective because they were hard and they were really travelling. Some loads were reputed to be up around the 3500 fps.
> ...


Hardie said when you were in Nam you were too scared to leave camp and he had to do all your shooting for you.Hardie also said you thought the Viet Cong were descended from the ghosts of Aorangi.

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## 308

Gibo stuck some pics up courtesy of Lentle & Saxon on an earlier thread

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...87/index5.html

here ya go, they might help

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## sakokid

Hey scribe thanks for sharing. Good  informative information.

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## Neckshot

This is what the forum needs Scribe good to have you back on here.

Jasen

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## Gibo

> Hey scribe thanks for sharing. Good  informative information.


+1

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## Scribe

> Hardie said when you were in Nam you were too scared to leave camp and he had to do all your shooting for you.Hardie also said you thought the Viet Cong were descended from the ghosts of Aorangi.


How would Hardie know what I was doing Te Rei. He was suffering MPI ( Mental Paralysis of the Insane) from a long untreated attack of syphilis.

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## Scribe

> This is what the forum needs Scribe good to have you back on here.
> 
> Jasen


Thanks Jason, I am going to burn out at this rate and have to retreat back to my books.

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## veitnamcam

I have a intense hatred for the heart shot and anyone I take will be instructed to shoot for the lungs and how to.
But more than that I really really hate how virtually every piece of literature instructs people to aim for a heart shot, It seems to be an American thing.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Dougie

Ah scribe, do you think Willie Peters would have liked me? I would have married him for sure!  :Wink: 

Great to have you back, thank you for sharing all of the above.

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## PERRISCICABA

It is why I love this forum. Every thread I go someone have a great subject to discuss, jokes apart this thread has been GREAT to me. I use a 7mm Mag for my general hunt and I shot 3 or 4 deer with my .223, all of them drop on the spot and one walk no more than 40 metres up hill, except one shot that was just over 100mts the others was around 50-60. 
In all the cases I did a neck shot.
Reading all the posts in this thread make me rethink all my attitude regards shot placement and if I will in the future try to shoot any animal further than 150mts with my .223. 
I use a heavier projectile(Sierra 65gr SPBT) than the ones described here. 
Thank you a lot all of you guys for make this forum so instructive. 
All the best. 
Mac

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## Spudattack

I am pretty sure the heart shot comes out of Africa, different situation and suits the style of hunting there, less hilly and normally hunting with highly skilled specialist trackers to follow the blood spoor that is still there because winter is dry and it doesn't get washed away, it is not unheard of to go back to a blood spoor after 3 or 4 days when trying to find a wounded animal.
I agree it is not a great shot for NZ conditions.

Don't want to get into this argument as I am firmly against using .22 centre fires on anything bigger than fallow.

All I will say is that Bell shot over a thousand elephants with a 7x57, yes he was an expert at shot placement and picking his shots, but I still wouldn't advocate it as a great elephant calibre.

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## Scribe

> Ah scribe, do you think Willie Peters would have liked me? I would have married him for sure! 
> 
> Great to have you back, thank you for sharing all of the above.


Its always good to hear from you 

I think 'Willie Peters' would have wanted to do lot with you than just give you a 'LIKE' Dougie.

I was a good thing I dropped off I got that book finished. I spend to much time on here. 

I will give myself the summer before I start another.

I plan on hitting the road this year and catching up on a lot of members.

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## Scribe

> I have a intense hatred for the heart shot and anyone I take will be instructed to shoot for the lungs and how to.
> But more than that I really really hate how virtually every piece of literature instructs people to aim for a heart shot, It seems to be an American thing.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Hi Cam, Yes its is amazing how little is really known about the heart shot. Probably the worst part of the deal is how many deer are lost from heart shots. When they break it is always directly downhill and 150 yards is a bloody big climb with a stag on your back just to get it back to where you started.

This has had me wondering for a while Cam. These serious shooting accidents where very experienced men have shot another hunter.

Have these very experience men actually shot many deer?. Because they aren't picking their shots. The evidence I have read gives me the impression that they are intent on driving a bullet anywhere into the body of what they have dimly perceived to be a deer. 

Surely with roughly only one third the target area being a fatal shot there is a basic flaw in many hunters techniques. Careful bullet placement techniques are indeed not being used here at all.

I have thought about this a bit. Commonly in bush hunting the first thing you see is head movement. So OK I got a head here. Now I got a leg. Now I got a back leg. Half way between these two legs, a foot up from the knuckle start looking for hair and the gap to slide the 223 projectile through. (Actually I am talking more sika here as they are always behind cover when they squeal at you). But it is similar with other species.)

Now if the people that are going to have shooting accidents were actually acquiring certain aiming spots on the deer then surely it would be nearly impossible to mistake a person for a deer?. Again to go further here Cam, as lots of forum members have pointed out already: To kill a deer with a 223 you have to be very selective as to the spot where you place your bullet.

Surely the sensible answer here is to throw the seven or nine rules, such as 'Identify your target' out the bloody window and make all hunters carry 223. There now, problem solved.

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## veitnamcam

Ha ha ha ha.
Unfortunately even then you would still have some people "aiming at the big bit"

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## mikee

> Ha ha ha ha.
> Unfortunately even then you would still have some people "aiming at the big bit"


You mean thats not how it works  :Grin:

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## Scribe

> I am pretty sure the heart shot comes out of Africa, different situation and suits the style of hunting there, less hilly and normally hunting with highly skilled specialist trackers to follow the blood spoor that is still there because winter is dry and it doesn't get washed away, it is not unheard of to go back to a blood spoor after 3 or 4 days when trying to find a wounded animal.
> I agree it is not a great shot for NZ conditions.
> 
> Don't want to get into this argument as I am firmly against using .22 centre fires on anything bigger than fallow.
> 
> All I will say is that Bell shot over a thousand elephants with a 7x57, yes he was an expert at shot placement and picking his shots, but I still wouldn't advocate it as a great elephant calibre.


Hi there Spudattack, I would suggest the danger of the job, his previous experience allowed Bell to pick the right tools for the job. From what I have read Bell used to shoot his elephants from a distance through two of its knees rendering it nearly harmless before closing in for a brain shot.

Interesting an old hunter and one of NZ greatest conservationist and NZ first recruit to The Wildlife Service in 1944 was Bill Axbey. He died a couple of years back. Along with a 6.5 that his friends built him for his 80th birthday he left me some boxes of papers among which is a finished manuscript and an unfinished manuscript. Bill has 3 published books, great stories especially 'Down The Track' and The Bird Hunters'.

The finished manuscript is called Teeth Of Gold and surprisingly, at least to me, it is about a NZ Elephant Hunter, 'Deaf Banks'. Banks was one of those great elephant hunters of bygone days. This manuscript has some wonderful pictures (Sales Cataloges) from the great English Gun Makers expounding their wares. Some of the descriptions by Bell of the weapons that were made for elephant hunting makes us realise how soft the NZ shooter is by comparison.

One double rifle fired a ball 'four to the pound' there is another described as firing two to the pound. Bell well described, I think it was the four to the pound, as on discharge it spun me around twice and caused my nose to bleed.

Such a weapon is bound to make you flinch, wouldn't you say 'Spudattack or ruin a quick second shot, so maybe at least in Bells case the safest and most effective rifle for him to kill elephants with was the 7x57.

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## Spudattack

Absolutely, my point is more that in the hands of someone highly experienced and hunting as a profession a light calibre is fine, I wouldn't recommend it to someone wanting to have a go at it though!
I would also suggest that something in between a 7x57 and a 4 bore might be more suitable for someone not as experienced! Bell was known for his dislike of recoil.

An interesting story was told by Selous when in the heat of and assault on a herd of elephant he handed his unfired muzzle loading 4 bore (I could be incorrect on the calibre as writing from memory but will check later) to his gunbearer who promptly put a second charge and ball on top of the existing one and then handed it back to Selous. He writes that the recoil threw him backwards and completely shattered the stock, but did not split the barrel!
He was extremely sensitive to recoil after that!

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## gadgetman

Thanks Scribe, brilliant information. I'm a new shooter (I call it my mid life crisis) and am working my way up slowly. Interested in your views on the 22x range as from what little experience I've had with my little 223 is that it is devastating and devastatingly accurate within it's, and my, range. This was brought to my attention when I shot a wallaby that was facing me in the neck. The little 55gn projectile went the length of its body and pulverised everything inside. I didn't harvest any meat off that one.

This spring/summer I will be having my first crack at deer. I'm very confident with my shot placement but will likely take a 243 along for the deer as I find I'm just as accurate with the slightly bigger calibre and they will probably give me a slight improvement with odds on my ability to pick the right spot to place the shot. Yes, I go by the thinking of "shoot big, aim small." Will have to drag young  @TimeRider along with me with her 243 as well, she needs to blood it still. Even she can happily shoot sub 15mm groups at 100m at the range and will place a shot on a rabbit exactly as I describe to her in the field.

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## Shamus

For another perspective on this, here are the calibre/projectile weight/impact energy requirements for hunting in Norway 

"For moose, red deer, follow deer, wild reindeer, wild boar, wild sheep, musk ox, wolf and bear, ammunition with expanding bullets weighing a minimum 9 grams is required. 
a) ammunition whose bullets weigh between 9 and 10 grams (139 and 154 grains) must have an impact energy of at least 2700 joules (275 kg/m) at a range of 100 metres. 
b) ammunition whose bullets weigh more than 10 grams (154 grains or more) must have an impact energy of at least 2200 joules (225 kg/m) at a range of 100 metres. 
When hunting roe deer, beaver, wolverine and lynx with a rifle, expanding bullets with an impact energy of at least 980 joules (100 kg/m) at a range of 100 metres must be used."

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## Scouser

> Thanks Scribe, brilliant information. I'm a new shooter (I call it my mid life crisis) and am working my way up slowly. Interested in your views on the 22x range as from what little experience I've had with my little 223 is that it is devastating and devastatingly accurate within it's, and my, range. This was brought to my attention when I shot a wallaby that was facing me in the neck. The little 55gn projectile went the length of its body and pulverised everything inside. I didn't harvest any meat off that one.
> 
> This spring/summer I will be having my first crack at deer. I'm very confident with my shot placement but will likely take a 243 along for the deer as I find I'm just as accurate with the slightly bigger calibre and they will probably give me a slight improvement with odds on my ability to pick the right spot to place the shot. Yes, I go by the thinking of "shoot big, aim small." Will have to drag young  @TimeRider along with me with her 243 as well, she needs to blood it still. Even she can happily shoot sub 15mm groups at 100m at the range and will place a shot on a rabbit exactly as I describe to her in the field.


Good luck to you both....you deserve a deer...or two!

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## gadgetman

> Good luck to you both....you deserve a deer...or two!


I know I can pass up a shot, ... I had five within 250m quietly grazing but since @TimeRider decided to sleep instead of coming I just lifted the bolt and watched for an hour. Would have been the first deer for both of us. Another time.

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## Scribe

> Thanks Scribe, brilliant information. I'm a new shooter (I call it my mid life crisis) and am working my way up slowly. Interested in your views on the 22x range as from what little experience I've had with my little 223 is that it is devastating and devastatingly accurate within it's, and my, range. This was brought to my attention when I shot a wallaby that was facing me in the neck. The little 55gn projectile went the length of its body and pulverised everything inside. I didn't harvest any meat off that one.
> 
> This spring/summer I will be having my first crack at deer. I'm very confident with my shot placement but will likely take a 243 along for the deer as I find I'm just as accurate with the slightly bigger calibre and they will probably give me a slight improvement with odds on my ability to pick the right spot to place the shot. Yes, I go by the thinking of "shoot big, aim small." Will have to drag young  @TimeRider along with me with her 243 as well, she needs to blood it still. Even she can happily shoot sub 15mm groups at 100m at the range and will place a shot on a rabbit exactly as I describe to her in the field.


Hi Gadget, With the skill to position yourself 250 metres from deer and the patience to walk away and leave them for another day tells me you wont have any trouble filling the freezer with the .223

My other favourite calibre, my big game, long range one I mean, was the 243. For those long tussock shots reaching way down into the basins that run deep into the bush that is.

We reloaded 85 Sierra boat tail, hollow points. Using 48 gr of Norma 205 behind them they were really moving along, but accurate too. Norma 205 has been discontinued for so long now I cant look up the speed they were supposed to be doing. I think 3400+. Norma 205 was a very slow burning powder.

There was always a very satisfactory thud when this bullet arrived at its target. And with shooting every day you became confident and tried the really hard shots and expected a hit. Because of such confidence you mostly did get a hit. Confidence makes up a good part of good shooting. I don't think I have seen a man who is losing confidence in himself or his rifle hit anything much after that.

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## Danny

> Hi Gadget, With the skill to position yourself 250 metres from deer and the patience to walk away and leave them for another day tells me you wont have any trouble filling the freezer with the .223
> 
> My other favourite calibre, my big game, long range one I mean, was the 243. For those long tussock shots reaching way down into the basins that run deep into the bush that is.
> 
> We reloaded 85 Sierra boat tail, hollow points. Using 48 gr of Norma 205 behind them they were really moving along, but accurate too. Norma 205 has been discontinued for so long now I cant look up the speed they were supposed to be doing. I think 3400+. Norma 205 was a very slow burning powder.
> 
> There was always a very satisfactory thud when this bullet arrived at its target. And with shooting every day you became confident and tried the really hard shots and expected a hit. Because of such confidence you mostly did get a hit. Confidence makes up a good part of good shooting. I don't think I have seen a man who is losing confidence in himself or his rifle hit anything much after that.


Thanks for the post all!

Experience isn't the best teacher,  it is the only teacher. 
I have seen my old man shoot, pigs (wild and tame), deer, dogs and goats easily with a .22.
I myself have found out the hard way that even a .243 used by a novice like myself can end in failure. We've all seen failures or heard of some by even magnums. 
A great old family friend used the 250 savage and he swore by it, he was also one of the pioneers with the 270 win and both my father and my grandfather said old Tom was a crack shot. 
One thing of note I value in these posts is the value one places in the recovery of eating meat. The last deer I took with a 7mm08 Gmx 140 was appallingly bad. The hit side was not even fit for dog tucker.  It was a lung shot so i had plenty to recover.
This put me right off the 7mm08. The 303, or 44 mag would have dropped this fine stag equally without the damage. 
I love reading this crap, I take the fish and leave the bones. Plenty of fish.
Thanks all.

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## Scribe

[QUOTE=Scribe;276070]Attachment 27484

If you look at the top left hand corner of the Token Destruction Form there is an example of the worst type of bureaucracy.

I was paid 7 dollars for every deer I shot up to a maximum of $80 dollars per week. The $80 dollar a week target was set so that the Base Stallions were not embarrassed by the fact we could earn a hell of a lot more than them.

So once you had shot your 45 for the month you had achieved maximum but you could credit extra tails to your next months tally.
So thanks to the system, once I had a few tails up I would have from the 1st of the month until tail destruction day (28th) to explore far distant country. I once found myself 80 miles as the crow flies from base and 2 days to get home.

And so a poacher was born, an honourable occupation it is too, ridding the country of noxious animals. How can there be any crime in that. The grass is always greener over the other side of the hill as we know and the best hunters always seemed to me to be the most adventurous. To lie near my little fire up on the main range near the 'Sawtooth' gazing down on the cities of Napier and Hastings and wondering what everybody was up to was a regular occurrence. 

 Unfortunately the dear old deer in this day and age are shown far less respect than in our day. It is now fashionable in the name of Conservation to drop 1080 poison into our mountains and forests to target our deer. Have no doubt about this, it estimated       
that between 20,000 and 50,000 deer are killed annually in this most inhumane fashion. This so called conservation has in the process pretty well destroyed the Wild Venison Recovery Industry with its dangerous aerial distribution of a residual poison that at many levels has penetrated the human food chain. This Wild Venison Recovery Industry was well able to keep the deer numbers in check as well as providing a secondary income for many hunters and it was worth around 200 mil a year the country.

After 60 year of 1080 use in NZ, if it was any good we would all know how good it was and we wouldn't have to create beech mast crisis and rat plagues to try to justify its use. 

After

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## Scribe

This was what destroyed the Wild Venison Recovery Industry. After all the work, the treasure we poured into this industry and the lives we lost.

Off these two shipments, one was returned from Germany and tested back in NZ for 1080 residue on a rumour that a helicopter was seen shooting deer in a 1080 area.

The second shipment had arrived in America and it was either disposed of there or dumped at sea because it never returned to NZ nor was it tested for 1080 residue. By these method we can keep up the pretence that 1080 has never been found in our food products.

It is obvious that there is a different mindset here, between protecting our reputation overseas and protecting the New Zealand hunter or his family from the effects of 1080.

The return or destruction of these two shipments cost Individuals dearly, not just monetary but in loss of trust and loss of contracts and the industry has never recovered.

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## Kudu

A while ago I got a .222 for all the fallow shooting I do. I have always been a "one gun" type of guy but there was just no need to use the .284 on Fallow. A few people said "Why get a .222? Get a .223" but I liked the traditional old .222. Anyway I have taken a few deer with it so far, always with neck shots as I realised it was such a light calibre. Anyway yesterday a fallow spiker was standing in front of me and he would not show his head or neck, so I thought what the hell, and I shot him behind the shoulder. The photo below shows the result! This is the entrance side! So from now on I will still be using neck shots, not because the calibre is to light, but I just don't want to waste so much meat!!

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## Scouser

First deer i ever shot (ive only shot 2!!!!) was a Fallow buck on a deer farm on a guided hunt, (i needed the experience of actually shooting an animal) the guide handed me his .222 rifle (sighted in to 100 mtrs) 

He told me to shoot the deer 'Just behind the front leg on the stripe'....with nerves ect, i shot him nearer the guts than the engine room, he dropped like a sack of spuds on the spot, no problem at all from approx 80 mtrs

He told me Fallow, in particular don't need a large calibre round to put down, but not to use a .222 on Reds or Sika unless i was a 'crack shot', especially in the Roar.....i carry a 7-08 for all my hunting, which is always bush and always Reds & Sika!!!!!

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## Scribe

> A while ago I got a .222 for all the fallow shooting I do. I have always been a "one gun" type of guy but there was just no need to use the .284 on Fallow. A few people said "Why get a .222? Get a .223" but I liked the traditional old .222. Anyway I have taken a few deer with it so far, always with neck shots as I realised it was such a light calibre. Anyway yesterday a fallow spiker was standing in front of me and he would not show his head or neck, so I thought what the hell, and I shot him behind the shoulder. The photo below shows the result! This is the entrance side! So from now on I will still be using neck shots, not because the calibre is to light, but I just don't want to waste so much meat!!


Way ta go 'Kudu'

.222... too much gun now???

Can you imagine trying to patch up that sort of wound in a human if it wasn't immediately fatal.

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## veitnamcam

Projectile selection is key.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Scribe

'Kudu' Just a question or two, The entry hole damage seems a little excessive. 
1/Did the projectile exit the animal.

2/ Did the projectile hit the ribs on the far side of the animal 

3/ Was the deer standing square on to the shooter or what angle.

4/ Is there a chance the projectile hit a Twig, bit of grass, etc on the way to the animal.

5/ Confirm what we see is the entry hole 

6/What load and projectiles are you using.

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## veitnamcam

Its just what they look like from the old mans 223 with Winchester varmint 55gr.
He always says his 223 stuffs more meat than his 30.06  but wont change from the varmint factory load as he might have to sight in again and waste some bullets  :Grin:

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## Average Joe

Thanks for that

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## Scribe

> Its just what they look like from the old mans 223 with Winchester varmint 55gr.
> He always says his 223 stuffs more meat than his 30.06  but wont change from the varmint factory load as he might have to sight in again and waste some bullets


The Old Buggar. Sounds like me. I just got around to ditching my old redfield 4x Power after 44 years as my main battle scope.

I thought me eyes were getting fucked. Wiping the lenses with toilet paper all that time, bits of grit slowly damaging them and wearing the surface. It was like looking through snot.

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## veitnamcam

> The Old Buggar. Sounds like me. I just got around to ditching my old redfield 4x Power after 44 years as my main battle scope.
> 
> I thought me eyes were getting fucked. Wiping the lenses with toilet paper all that time, bits of grit slowly damaging them and wearing the surface. It was like looking through snot.


I have just got back from the range sighting in his 30-06.
Put a luepold 4.5-14 power on it for him to replace the steel tube fixed 4x weaver that has had the same 20 or 30 years of cleaning with dunny paper or snot rag.
was like looking threw a coke bottle :Grin: 

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Scribe

> I have just got back from the range sighting in his 30-06.
> Put a luepold 4.5-14 power on it for him to replace the steel tube fixed 4x weaver that has had the same 20 or 30 years of cleaning with dunny paper or snot rag.
> was like looking threw a coke bottle
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


I mentioned this on here a while back. Mate used a Leupold for many year in the NZFS then his son started shooting for Doc and used it for years until one day he fell and bent the tube.

Now we all know that the Leupold lifetime warranty is pretty good but to be honest this scope was nearly through it second lifetime.

It had so much use that the alloy around the lenses on the right hand side where your arm rubbed against it had had worn quite thin plus it was bent. Leupold sent a replacement scope and a letter asking if they may keep the scope for their collection as they had no other that showed such obvious signs of hard use.

Throughout the years many scopes have come and gone among professional shooters but no company has ever been able to stand up to the quality, longevity, 'Tadpole Free', honest lifetime warranty of the Leupold Company.

I have replaced my Redfield with a Redfield only because I have had a spare one for many years

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## veitnamcam

Hard to beat their warranty alright.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## mikee

> I have just got back from the range sighting in his 30-06.
> Put a luepold 4.5-14 power on it for him to replace the steel tube fixed 4x weaver that has had the same 20 or 30 years of cleaning with dunny paper or snot rag.
> was like looking threw a coke bottle
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Did you get some rings to suit ?

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## veitnamcam

> Did you get some rings to suit ?


 Yep kiwi Greg had some:thumbup:

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## mikee

> Yep kiwi Greg had some:thumbup:
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Is there anything we DOESN'T have??

Was worried the "grinder of death" might have come out again  :Grin:

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## doinit

Bloody good to hear someone who knows what he's on about in regards to the treble Scribe.The subject seems to surface a lot among today's up and coming hunters,can be bloody  impossible to get through to many just how effective the treble is.
Keep up the good reports from back in the day eh.

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## Scribe

> Bloody good to hear someone who knows what he's on about in regards to the treble Scribe.The subject seems to surface a lot among today's up and coming hunters,can be bloody  impossible to get through to many just how effective the treble is.
> Keep up the good reports from back in the day eh.


Yes I hear what you say 'doinit' It seems we are doomed to have to listen to that droll, repetitive, mantra every time someone asks for advice on what calibre rifle to buy to hunt deer. 

1/ You have to hit them in a certain place.. (Yeah!!!!)
2/ It is a varmint calibre.. (You can buy a Varmint Rifle in 7.62..308)
3/ I wouldn't pick it for a first rifle... (Why not, a thousand Deer Cullers have) 
4/ It wont kill big deer.. 'Aye'

When the Deercullers were formed and began their huge task around 1938 the deer killing field were dominated by the venerable old 303. In 1950 the .222 Remington appeared on the scene and slowly but surely became the most popular deer killing calibre by the 60's and 70's. During this period a large number of Pigs goats and wapiti/wapiti cross animals bit the dust when they collected this deadly 50 gr bullet through the engine room. 

Since the end of the 70s the 222/223 has continued to dominate the field for people who make their living by the 'gun'.
Whether they now make their living from aerial shooting now or on the ground hunting for DOC this is a calibre of choice. If you had ambition to be a professional hunter, first you would buy this relatively expensive tool that you would have to rely on entirely to provide you with sufficient tails to satisfy your Field Officer and put money in the bank. This was never an easy thing as I am sure most of the Field Officers looked upon their own shooter's a something akin to a well bred racehorse's that should always be leading the field.

First thing a young builder or young mechanic will do before he buys his tools, if he has any brains that is, is to find out what the best in the trade are using before he makes his own decision, cullers were no different

The popularity of these calibres show no sign of disappearing real soon and I will go so far as to say that there is no other calibre except the venerable old 303, that has killed as many deer, pigs and goats in NZ as the deadly .222/223. In fact I would go so far as to say none are even close. Nor will any other calibre take that crown from the trebbly's in the future as deer and pig control is increasing being devolved to those firms that specialize in the aerial spreading of toxins such as 1080 and brodifacoum.

In the desire of a few to return NZ to a time called pre Maori

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## doinit

Cheers Scribe,could not have put it better myself. Long live those wee pills and the great memories from that other planet eh

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## R93

Yup! Just wish I seen the light regarding these calibres earlier than I did. Would have saved me some heartache and money☺

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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## Scribe

> Yup! Just wish I seen the light regarding these calibres earlier than I did. Would have saved me some heartache and money☺
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


Too true, Too true R93. I have started a few shooters on the .222/223 track and they have never looked back. I am pleased to see a steady stream of AR 15s entering the forum. One of the reasons I started this thread is because I would like them to have confidence in the calibre as a deer rifle. Without confidence you very seldom shoot well.

If they do their job, this wonderful little bullet will do its job.

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## jefftrevor

have you written any hunting books? I bet you could tell some good stories. the way you write makes easy reading .cheers

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## JoshC

> I mentioned this on here a while back. Mate used a Leupold for many year in the NZFS then his son started shooting for Doc and used it for years until one day he fell and bent the tube.
> 
> Now we all know that the Leupold lifetime warranty is pretty good but to be honest this scope was nearly through it second lifetime.
> 
> It had so much use that the alloy around the lenses on the right hand side where your arm rubbed against it had had worn quite thin plus it was bent. Leupold sent a replacement scope and a letter asking if they may keep the scope for their collection as they had no other that showed such obvious signs of hard use.
> 
> Throughout the years many scopes have come and gone among professional shooters but no company has ever been able to stand up to the quality, longevity, 'Tadpole Free', honest lifetime warranty of the Leupold Company.
> 
> I have replaced my Redfield with a Redfield only because I have had a spare one for many years


I was given an old Leupold m8? on my first rifle, a Parker hale 243. Scope was more or less rooted, lenses were poked, it was covered in scratches and worn out, and had a crushed tube. Sent it back to Leupold hopeful of refurbishment and they replaced it with a new scope also. Man I was stoked at the time. Pretty good service.

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## Nick-D

Sigh now I want a .223. Another thing to try get past the missus  :Oh Noes:

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## SiB

Leupold warranty? I have a basic VX1 3-9 x40 I bought s/h on my .223. No paperwork. If this scope craps out might Leupold honour the warranty or am I out of luck without orig receipts etc? It's an oldie that's for sure.

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## JoshC

> Leupold warranty? I have a basic VX1 3-9 x40 I bought s/h on my .223. No paperwork. If this scope craps out might Leupold honour the warranty or am I out of luck without orig receipts etc? It's an oldie that's for sure.


Most likely. The newer "cheaper" models I think only have a 10 year warranty now, but the gold ring versions still offer lifetime warranty. As far as I know. you don't need paperwork, I've had a couple of scopes sent back to the US and have never had an issue. One was a scope I bought there and brought home. The NZ distributors arranged all warranty stuff through Leupold in US.

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## Shamus

> Sigh now I want a .223. Another thing to try get past the missus


You missed the point - you can get rid of your other rifles the 222/223 replaces everything!  :ORLY:

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## Scouser

> You missed the point - you can get rid of your other rifles the 222/223 replaces everything!


Not during the Roar.......

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## Shamus

> Not during the Roar.......


Its magical killing powers are seasonally affected?

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## Nick-D

> You missed the point - you can get rid of your other rifles the 222/223 replaces everything!


I think you missed the point. More guns = better than less guns. This whole firearms mallarky gets addictive rather quickly. Just one more, honest, oh but wait, I dont have anything in 30 cal either....  :Grin:

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## Scouser

> Its magical killing powers are seasonally affected?


Testosterone....its a bitch....not saying a 222/223 wont kill a Roaring stag if delivered in the right place, but in the bush up close Shamus, you would have to be as 'cool' as your 'gun totin' avatar to drop the bastard!!!!!!!

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## bully

I see a few guys that like to wear dive boots or bare feet in the bush.... what did the old school guys wear?

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## madjon_



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## Scouser

> Attachment 27835


whoooo, old school racing slippers.....with cleats......nice, are they the 'bullers'?...ive got Ashleys...

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## res

> I see a few guys that like to wear dive boots or bare feet in the bush.... what did the old school guys wear?


Both my grandfather and my father thought double or triple layers of work socks was good stalking footwear

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## Hunt4life

I happen to have a Sako Vixen L461 .222 for sale if anyone wants one :-)
Check the Buy & Sell page.




> Attachment 27482
> 
> In the professional field of hunting.
>  Bullet placement is of course the essence with these calibres as IS TRUE with every other calibre. An animal can only be so dead and a gut shot or leg shot is the same by any other calibre. Place any of these bullets above, forward of the last rib into the engine room of a deer and its yours. Remember one thing though, its not where the bullet hits an animal it is the path through the animal that counts.
> 
> Bush bucking capabilities of these rounds is not great but neither is the bush bucking capabilities of any high powered rifle. If you don't believe this then try firing a magazine of tracer 308 3006 303 on automatic into a forest at night you end up with a Catherine Wheel Effect of spinning bullet fragments that will come half way back to meet you.
> 
> In the NZFS in the sixty and seventies you could use whatever calibre you wanted but you were only supplied with 2 .270 and 3 .222 rounds per kill. Among the hunters I worked with and knew, the vast majority used the deadly little Sako Vixen .222. Second most popular calibre was the 243, the boys using this calibre, would trade the 270 rounds at the local sports store for powder and projectiles.
> 
> ...

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## madjon_

> are they the 'bullers'?


Indonesian "bullers" with drains.
Years ago I bought 3 pair of real Skellerup bullers.When the last pair blew out I bought thesepieces of shit.
after 3 days wetwear(Otane/Otapakawa) I was looking for the dogshit I had sat in,then the eyelet pulled out.Also very dangerous on wet rock(greasey as a butchers "nornor")so back to "Bullers"

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## Hunt4life

> Indonesian "bullers" with drains.
> Years ago I bought 3 pair of real Skellerup bullers.When the last pair blew out I bought theseAttachment 27837pieces of shit.
> after 3 days wetwear(Otane/Otapakawa) I was looking for the dogshit I had sat in,then the eyelet pulled out.Also very dangerous on wet rock(greasey as a butchers "nornor")so back to "Bullers"


Mate, I feel your pain! I bought some Vasque last year and wore them in the bush twice. No other boots have ever hurt my feet like the Vasques. Not bloody cheap either  :Sad:

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## Scribe

> Attachment 27835



Hello madjon, That's a pair of high country or rock hunters set of boots if ever I saw a set. Many of the South Islanders used to do up their boots just like that. It was not so common in the north more bush hunting I suppose.

  I see the horseshoes on the heels and nails on the side. Are they just nails or do you run a set of tricounis either side.

We used to go through a set of bullers in 5/6 months and set of good leather boots in 3 months. The shingle slides cut the leather out on the toes and the sides. 

I and wife still wear bullers but I have to say they are not as good since they start making them in Malaysia.

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## doinit

The Bullers were the flavour of the day for sure.Like Scribe said some of us tried the leather boots, John Bulls,greeny coloured they were with metal loops (eyelets).
They were ok but didn't last as long as the Bullers. Horse nails like in the above pic shows but with added nails,,one in the instep plus a couple each side of the front of the boot. We also had a small hole in the instep to get rid of water,some guys put a metal eyelet there to stop any tearing.Two pairs of socks and all wrapped up with Horse bandage type putties and it was all go.Bloody hot at times during Summer but the Bullers proved effective.
Just to add,,,,,, As the rubber grip wore down it was out with the knife for a quick retread job' replace the torn out or worn nails and they were ready to go again.That's if you were a tight arse lol.

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## Scribe

> have you written any hunting books? I bet you could tell some good stories. the way you write makes easy reading .cheers


Hi jefftrevor, I have. If you look in the Forum Library section you will find a couple of my books. Though this is not exactly a hunting books 'Dustoff For Willie Peters' would suit a hunter. Just ask the previous reader and he will send it to you

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## TeRei

Ordered your new book today. Looking forward to reading it.

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## Scribe

> Ordered your new book today. Looking forward to reading it.


You have an advantage over most of my readers 'Te Rei'. In that you know much of the country in which the book is set and the hunters involved in the game at that time.

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## TeRei

At 4pm Aorangi had cloud around it but Mangaohane and Mokai had sun on them. We had 3/4 degrees warmth coming out of the beech.It was cold .

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## TeRei

Ploughing thru the book now. Many memories there. Great to see Ohutu Ridge again and the tiny Garry Sutton.He was a top bloke. Loved the Iron bark tent camp.Sent a message to Wayne Pratt for you.He is in Karamea and his bil was Len.Wayne had a permit to hunt on Ngamatea and nailed a few in the 500.He had one of the original Beta's either  number 7 or 27 and got over 7k deer in it.I was in Taradale Park when Joe did the loop de loop. You could hear the screaming by both Joe and his passengers. Funny when he flew us into the Kaimanawas and told him about it.The Mangatera had big deer but the best way was to whistle down there from Ruahine and on the left hand side were some lovely clearings. Only place I have ever seen deer go bug eyed and wide eyed as you appeared out of the blue.The dwarf rates it at 9.5/10 because it does not mention him other than his alter ego on pg 209.Got smashed many a time walking up from Ironbark to Otukota via the river even when it was too high.A fantastic contribution to the NZ hunting history. :Thumbsup:

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## Scouser

> Ploughing thru the book now. Many memories there. Great to see Ohutu Ridge again and the tiny Garry Sutton.He was a top bloke. Loved the Iron bark tent camp.Sent a message to Wayne Pratt for you.He is in Karamea and his bil was Len.Wayne had a permit to hunt on Ngamatea and nailed a few in the 500.He had one of the original Beta's either  number 7 or 27 and got over 7k deer in it.I was in Taradale Park when Joe did the loop de loop. You could hear the screaming by both Joe and his passengers. Funny when he flew us into the Kaimanawas and told him about it.The Mangatera had big deer but the best way was to whistle down there from Ruahine and on the left hand side were some lovely clearings. Only place I have ever seen deer go bug eyed and wide eyed as you appeared out of the blue.The dwarf rates it at 9.5/10 because it does not mention him other than his alter ego on pg 209.Got smashed many a time walking up from Ironbark to Otukota via the river even when it was too high.A fantastic contribution to the NZ hunting history.


Fuk TeRei, now ill have to read it to decipher what the fuk your on about!!!!!!!!!

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## Scribe

> Fuk TeRei, now ill have to read it to decipher what the fuk your on about!!!!!!!!!


Scouser, Te Rei is alluding to a character and places in my 'First Book' as well as the new book. I suggest you read that first as it will give you a better understanding of the history of the area.

Ask in the Library Resource section..Free Read.

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## TeRei

Nice to see you had the same trouble coming off Ohutu Ridge. We got lost heading to the Mangatera and Iron bark. Went over the end of Ohutu and down that face. 1/2 way down we realised we were in real trouble. Took us about 7 hours to climb out of it. Came to the top and went to walk back to Ohutu Hut and got whited out on Ohutu Ridge then a blizzard hit us. Man that wind just screamed all night. Did you take that old orange railway tarp onto the clearings at the start of Wild Sheep Spur?It was tucked into the manuka just before the track took off towards Timahanga.We used to camp on the river straight down from the top beech clearings. Man there were some coons along the river.Up and down the Ikawatea we used to find many dead deer especially yearlings and hinds at the bottom of those bluff faces.The creek you mentioned along the true left from Central Te Hoe wasn't Camp Creek? Walked up their from Charlies in late January. Charlie has done an amazing job of controlling the stoats along the river and the blue ducks are starting to make a come back. Seeing Charlie on Friday and will give him your book.Most of Joe's deer traps around the Te Hoe are gone or into disrepair.Walked over Bare Acre once. Magic place as well. Great view.

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## TeRei

Charlie Janes reading your book in the Ureweras this week end.You would have loved your old haunt today because it has a thick layer of white stuff. Should have dropped a copy into Jack. Hasn't changed one bit. There are about 21 gates from Pohokura to the road.Charlie rates Spence as a pilot.Dont know why you did not use the Murupara Moon beam because your tallies would have skyrocketed.

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## Scribe

> Charlie Janes reading your book in the Ureweras this week end.You would have loved your old haunt today because it has a thick layer of white stuff. Should have dropped a copy into Jack. Hasn't changed one bit. There are about 21 gates from Pohokura to the road.Charlie rates Spence as a pilot.Dont know why you did not use the Murupara Moon beam because your tallies would have skyrocketed.


Where did you run into that poaching old bugger Charlie Janes, Te Rei. Yes the boys tell me the Ruahine's have had some good snow coverings this winter. Hope to be up there this month depend on snow now I guess, what's up there now might stick around.

I don't think Jack is ever going to change. His greeting to me was always 'What are you doing up here' Even on the Gentle Annie Road. 

Ahh the Murapara Moonbeam. Well we used it up there with a good bit of success Te Rei. We would get 6/9 some nights but you were 
knackered most of the time. We found our tally's were just as good during the daylight hours and life was much more pleasant.

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## Danny

Mean hearing of special spots, Te hoe etc...
I need to read.

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## Scribe

> Mean hearing of special spots, Te hoe etc...
> I need to read.


A fine river 'Danny' a bit gorgey above and below Central but still fine hunting.

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## Danny

Indeed....!
Off to the upper Te Hoe in six weeks time.

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## Scribe

> A fine river 'Danny' a bit gorgey above and below Central but still fine hunting.


Not quite accurate 'Danny' Gorgey above central Te Hoe Hut. River is just a bit difficult downstream. 

Good sidle on the true right going downstream.

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## Chop3r

Its a good stroll going through the gorge. I have only been through it when the river was down a bit but it could be interesting with a bit of flow

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## Danny

Nice spots alright. Hoping the weather is ok and I'll do from old Pukahunui to Upper through Central.

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## TeRei

Be a sport and tell us about the pilot who had his air cut out by another pilot flying deliberately above him and what happened afterwards on the ground.Joe's other shooter [after you] your old possum mate was 64 today.

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## Scribe

> Be a sport and tell us about the pilot who had his air cut out by another pilot flying deliberately above him and what happened afterwards on the ground.Joe's other shooter [after you] your old possum mate was 64 today.


Nah, I made a deliberate choice not to use this book to settle old scores. Tempting as it was.

I settled their hash right then, though it was a big drama at the time. 

So how is Bill?

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## TeRei

Flying gliders now. Has 3 or 4 hangars for all his toys.Rusty told us about the former. He was also not impressed with Joe Collins antics turning up in the C model at Taupo within his crew dressed  like the Mexican bandidos. Hunting Aotearoa had Aorangi on last night. Cant say the hut was in top order . Going to be cold going over to Taihape tomorrow.

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## jefftrevor

got dust off for willie peters from the taupo library .at page 112 at the moment, great reading so far  cheers

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## Scribe

> got dust off for willie peters from the taupo library .at page 112 at the moment, great reading so far  cheers


I am glad you are enjoying it jefftrevor.

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## jefftrevor

have just finished dust off for willie peters really enjoyed it. my memories of news about Vietnam in the 60s and 70s was all about the protestors and the americans . I was led to believe the nz troops didn't do much front line fighting. it was good to read what actually went on over there.sounds like nz forces were in the thick of it.not a very nice place to be.

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## veitnamcam

Welcome Jefftrevor.
Any relation to Simontrevor ?

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## jefftrevor

no, sorry im not

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## jefftrevor

anyone in taupo wanting a good book to read. Dust off for Willie
Peters back at taupo library. cheers

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