# Hunting > Hunting >  World Record Red Deer!!!!......according to an American

## Bavarian_Hunter

I like the facebook page for Barnes projectiles and today in my news feed there is a lady who either works for them or owns Barnes that I've seen on their youtube and website videos. Apparently she has taken a "New world record free range red deer". Really? I'd say I've seen at least 20 stags in my time that would better it that have been certified.
Why do yanks have to be and have the the best of everything? Or am I just crazy and this is legitimately a new free range world record?

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## Tristan

There is also one on YouTube about a chick who has something to do with Remington and she claimed to bow a world record red in gizzy

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## Bavarian_Hunter

Got a link? I'm in the mood for a laugh! ha

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## R93

I have a good idea where it was shot and if I am right, it isint free range. Unless it was let out 30 secs before shooting it. It is a pretty awesome head 45-47" in length and amazing brows and bez tines. That right side is almost perfect.
Goes a bit rough up top on the left. Dunno about it being a world record head tho.

I dont even look at or rate at Nz red deer heads that are over 330 odd that are not shot in either South Westland, Otago or inland Cantabury. 
99% of the animals from outside of those areas that are over 330ish are not of original strain and are just plain bullshit presented by bullshitters imo.

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## Bavarian_Hunter

> I have a good idea where it was shot and if I am right, it isint free range. Unless it was let out 30 secs before shooting it. It is a pretty awesome head 45-47" in length and amazing brows and bez tines. That right side is almost perfect.
> Goes a bit rough up top on the left. Dunno about it being a world record head tho.


That's what I was thinking, not that I recognise the area, but i highly doubt its a genuine wild deer. Really? I was thinking it would be low 40's in length although that right antler does have a good royal. At any rate it's far from a world record in my books. Americans just seem to claim everything as a world record, there must be a lot of big heads with the equal highest score ever!!

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## veitnamcam

> I have a good idea where it was shot and if I am right, it isint free range. Unless it was let out 30 secs before shooting it. It is a pretty awesome head 45-47" in length and amazing brows and bez tines. That right side is almost perfect.
> Goes a bit rough up top on the left. Dunno about it being a world record head tho.


It looks a Hell of a lot like a place I know and if it is it will be free range. Just well protected and managed.

It looks about the average off the property.

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## phillipgr

Easy BH, you line up the shot, radio the guy 5km away at the gate to open it, then let rip. Free as the third vacuum cleaner attachment on But Wait There's More and other infomercials. 

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## R93

> It looks a Hell of a lot like a place I know and if it is it will be free range. Just well protected and managed.
> 
> It looks about the average off the property.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2



That is no average head for anyhwere. You fellas need glasses or some size perspective :Thumbsup: 
359 if free range, is surely friggin unique these days. The best I have heard of for ages that come out of a true trophy area is a 347DS it come out of a river near Haast.
It had more points and was 45"ish in length.

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## KiwiinSeattle

I also think this is bullshit !

Considering posting this on FARCEBOOK

The New Zealand Definition Of Free-Range, by www.huntingreport.com

The New Zealand Definition Of Free-Range

Published: August - 2007

Continuing subscribers know we report regularly on what we have been calling free-range hunting opportunities in New Zealand. Turns out we should have been more careful with our use of that term. Seems some operations down that way claim to be free-range because they say their animals are able to jump fences found on their property.
Not so fast, one Kiwi operator told us recently. A fenced property that allows animals to escape is not considered free-range. In fact, it is actually against the law to allow fenced animals to escape.

For a straight answer on this matter, we turned to our resident New Zealand correspondent, Greg Morton, who had this to say: Free-range in New Zealand indeed means no fences. A free-range animal must be born and must live in the wild. In New Zealand, most genuine free-range hunting involves tahr, chamois, goat, wild sheep and wallaby. All and I mean ALL - of those monster SCI deer trophies are from behind a wire, although some good free-range fallow buck and sika stag are occasionally free-range shot. Good free-range red stag are shot from time to time, but they are bronze or silver medal quality at best. NO gold medal animals are shot free range.

The free-range devotee should not be fooled into believing that those monster trophies you see on many web sites are free-range animals. An outfitter would never allow such valuable animals to come and go at will. They have been bred for the park and are harvested soon after release. If there are fences on a monster-deer property that animals can jump over, don't be fooled into thinking those are the only perimeter fences. They aren't! . . . More from link above

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## Happy

Does that mean though that all the Fallows herds hanging around on beef and sheep farms round Wanganui are not free range or are they considered free range ?
Once they move from public to private blocks are they no longer free range ?

We see them all time just crossing from one farm to the other and there is certainly the odd biggish head amongst them.. There's no perimeter deer fencing round where I m talking about just hills and sheep and Angus Beef and deer for miles but they are all mostly fenced farms not public land . The deer live there and come and go as they please. There's plenty of un farmable land round the edges that are probably not private. Funny how all the farmers just assume they "own" those animals on their places as well and some do sell them .. Great selling stuff you don't own .I suppose they could say they feed them as they don't look hungry that's for sure.  :Thumbsup:

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## KiwiinSeattle

Also found this via FARCEBOOK

August, 2013 Bullet-N | Barnes Bullets

I don't see NZ Trophy Hunting claiming "free range" on their web site.

NZ Trophy Hunting, deer, chamois, pig hunting in New Zealand back country

It makes me ill to think that some people call this "hunting" and there are plenty of NZ businesses willing accomodate this behaviour.

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## ishoot10s

For your SCI-type septic tank, "Free range" just means the 4x4, picnic equipment, feed trough full of enriched growth factor Lucerne chaff, gate, hobbles, and any other paraphernalia are not visible in any photograph of the "hunter" and the head.  :XD:

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## sako75

I always had a "soft spot" for Mars Bowman or whatever her name is (name is just a technicality)

The McLean Bowman Ranch
Invisible Buck - TexasBowhunter.com Community Discussion Forums

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## R93

> Does that mean though that all the Fallows herds hanging around on beef and sheep farms round Wanganui are not free range or are they considered free range ?
> Once they move from public to private blocks are they no longer free range ?
> 
> We see them all time just crossing from one farm to the other and there is certainly the odd biggish head amongst them.. There's no perimeter deer fencing round where I m talking about just hills and sheep and Angus Beef and deer for miles but they are all mostly fenced farms not public land . The deer live there and come and go as they please. There's plenty of un farmable land round the edges that are probably not private. Funny how all the farmers just assume they "own" those animals on their places as well and some do sell them .. Great selling stuff you don't own .I suppose they could say they feed them as they don't look hungry that's for sure.


I think wild deer jumping cattle fences are free range opportunists. :Thumbsup:  Deer shot within deer netting or where they breed animals for shooters, not so much.

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## veitnamcam

> That is no average head for anyhwere. You fellas need glasses or some size perspective
> 359 if free range, is surely friggin unique these days. The best I have heard of for ages that come out of a true trophy area is a 347DS it come out of a river near Haast.
> It had more points and was 45"ish in length.


350 is the average off of this property.
I said free range not public land.
True wild bloodlines just managed properly and heavily culled of inferior animals.

An orvill trophy winner came off there a few years ago.

Most of the property has no fences at all.

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## Rushy

World record pfffttt!

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## Twoshotkill

What makes it a wold record??? Bigger have been shot and well documented.!

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## GravelBen

I could go and shoot one half that size and it would be a world record for one shot by me!

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## Bavarian_Hunter

Rushy - What takes me a paragraph to get across you can always do so eloquently with several words!

TSK - That's what I'm scratching my head about! Granted it's SCI and not Douglas but in that case I've seen even more heads that would put it to shame!

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## Bavarian_Hunter

> 350 is the average off of this property.
> I said free range not public land.
> True wild bloodlines just managed properly and heavily culled of inferior animals.
> 
> An orvill trophy winner came off there a few years ago.
> 
> Most of the property has no fences at all.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


If 350 is the average off that place then they need to have a good look at themselves as to why the biggest ever (in the world too!!) is only 9 6/8 more!!!!

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## R93

350DS average off private land that are wild and from wild stock only Cam?

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## veitnamcam

Wild stock of the original strain released in that area.
20 years of management and good tucker will do that.

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## Bavarian_Hunter

> Also found this via FARCEBOOK
> 
> August, 2013 Bullet-N | Barnes Bullets
> 
> I don't see NZ Trophy Hunting claiming "free range" on their web site.
> 
> NZ Trophy Hunting, deer, chamois, pig hunting in New Zealand back country
> 
> It makes me ill to think that some people call this "hunting" and there are plenty of NZ businesses willing accomodate this behaviour.


Not that this is the original argument but I think we need to refer back to this post. There is no question as to where it was shot. and after doing a search for "Free Range on their red deer page it came up with this!

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## KiwiinSeattle

This story only gets uglier !

WTF are "heins" ?
_
Thad kept his eye on the Stag from behind, while Gus sneaked up to make sure all was good. To his surprise, the big Stag and six heins were just 80 yards away from us on a slight downhill. Gus reaction instantly told me I better get into position fast, so I moved as quietly and efficiently as I could to set up for a shot. The entire herd was staring directly at us  they knew we were there. Suddenly, the heins bolted on a dead run away from us with the monster in tow._ 

It sounds like their "professional management" has successfully eliminated every natural instinct that a true wild animal would have !

NZ Trophy Hunting, deer, chamois, pig hunting in New Zealand back country

Now the NZTH web site is singing the same song:

_Jessica Brooks-Stevens and the Barnes group hunted with us in March this year. Jessica shot her unbelievable free range Red Stag using a Fierce 270 WSM with Swarovski Optics and a 140gn Barnes TSX bullet. This pending new world record free range Red Stag scored an incredible 359 6/8 SCI_



New Zealand Trophy Hunting - YouTube

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## R93

They would not claim a world record unless it was in some way, would they?
Dunno what for, but maybe a WR for a deer shot by a chick with that bullet or cal, something like that anyway.
I have a lot of time for Gussy. He's a good bastard and he knows his shit, It also confirms my suspicions as to where it was shot. :-)


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## Bavarian_Hunter

> This story only gets uglier !
> 
> WTF are "heins" ?
> _
> Thad kept his eye on the Stag from behind, while Gus sneaked up to make sure all was good. To his surprise, the big Stag and six heins were just 80 yards away from us on a slight downhill. Gus reaction instantly told me I better get into position fast, so I moved as quietly and efficiently as I could to set up for a shot. The entire herd was staring directly at us  they knew we were there. Suddenly, the heins bolted on a dead run away from us with the monster in tow._ 
> 
> It sounds like their "professional management" has successfully eliminated every natural instinct that a true wild animal would have !
> 
> NZ Trophy Hunting, deer, chamois, pig hunting in New Zealand back country
> ...


I think they've just mispellled "Heinz" and are talking about some "Free Range" spaghetti can... about as much challenge to hunt though haha

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## Bavarian_Hunter

> but maybe a WR for a deer shot by a chick with that bullet or cal, something like that



I seriously wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be what it is.

In that case, everyone look at my world record, this is the biggest red deer taken from 132m using a .270 by someone wearing red undies and a birthmark on their leg. Will sign autographs at a small fee!!

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## Rushy

> I seriously wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be what it is.
> 
> In that case, everyone look at my world record, this is the biggest red deer taken from 132m using a .270 by someone wearing red undies and a birthmark on their leg. Will sign autographs at a small fee!!
> 
> Attachment 13430


I have exactly that same record but mine is the "while standing on one leg" variant.

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## ishoot10s

> Jessica shot her *unbelievable free range* Red Stag


He's right about that much at least...

Oh, and maybe she thinks they're "heins" 'cos, like her, they have a "heinie"  :Thumbsup: ?

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## Rushy

Classic

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## Bavarian_Hunter

> I have exactly that same record but mine is the "while standing on one leg" variant.


I've been trumped!!

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## Rushy

> I've been trumped!!


But only by the left bower.  VC has the ultimate standing on his head from off a beach ball

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## Dundee

World record or not still a bloody nice animal.

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## kokako

> World record or not still a bloody nice animal.


What one? two or four legs?

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## Timmay

If an American is talking, they are usually lying.

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## Gibo

She better keep an eye on it, seems to be plenty getting pinched lately.

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## Nesika

> I dont even look at or rate at Nz red deer heads that are over 330 odd that are not shot in either South Westland, Otago or inland Cantabury. 
> 99% of the animals from outside of those areas that are over 330ish are not of original strain and are just plain bullshit presented by bullshitters imo.


Don't forget Gisborne. Some big heads up that way R93. I recently roughly measured a big 16 point red from that part of the world that went around 350+ DS (scored as a 14). No fences, lived free as a bird in a very large forestry block all its life. If memory serves me correctly they have Warnham Court and Windsor blood lines in this block...amazing what protection, management, a ready supply a tucker and good blood lines can produce!

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## R93

> What about Gisborne? Some big heads up that way R93. I recently roughly measured a big 16 point red from that part of the world that went around 350+ DS (scored as a 14). No fences, lived free as a bird in a very large forestry block all its life. If memory serves me correctly they have Warnham Court and Windsor blood lines in this block...amazing what protection, management, a ready supply a tucker and good blood lines can produce!


How many heads anywhere near that caliber prior to the 90's come out of Gisborne over 350?
Cyclone boler and the venison crash helped Gisborne out. 
Banwell's books are all you need to work it out vol 1 is a good start.


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## Nesika

You are probably correct R93 however was just saying the blood line in this block as I understand it was from original NZ blood lines and not some imported genetically enhanced super sire. Interesting debate and one which the NZDA now have to deal with... pure original blood lines vs a wild stag stag with obvious high quality imported genetics.

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## Druid

What is the actual difference between the SCI and the Douglas Score , scoring systems ? I seem to remember the SCI system doubles all the longest points and the DS doubles all the shortest points and then only those who have a corresponding point on the other side ? If so the SCI score cant be compared to the DS scores of classic NZ heads

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## Spanners

I had the opportunity to take a world record sheep while in the US... If I'd shot it with a pistol ... 
I wanted a decent stalk, and even though I'm a pistol shooter, I think 25-40 yds for me is MAX kill shot on an animal- short of a contender with barrel chopped and a scope. 
I turned the hunt down and it was shot the next day

Each to their own ..

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## linyera

my country's record on free range dates back to 1970 and gave a score of 237 sic and is far superior to that head! I never agreed with the rankings and scores, in hunting the most important is the throw and that can not be measured!!

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## TeRei

> I have a good idea where it was shot and if I am right, it isint free range. Unless it was let out 30 secs before shooting it. It is a pretty awesome head 45-47" in length and amazing brows and bez tines. That right side is almost perfect.
> Goes a bit rough up top on the left. Dunno about it being a world record head tho.
> 
> I dont even look at or rate at Nz red deer heads that are over 330 odd that are not shot in either South Westland, Otago or inland Cantabury. 
> 99% of the animals from outside of those areas that are over 330ish are not of original strain and are just plain bullshit presented by bullshitters imo.


This is absolutely true. Look at her lipstick which proves it was a truly wild hunt and genuine wild stag.Just because she is a woman and her hair looks airbrushed does not detract one iota that it is a true record hunt. :Omg:

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## Bavarian_Hunter

Apparently Barnes wasn't very happy with my or another guys comments about this head and have contacted the guide asking whether it really was "Free Range" This is what they posted.....



*Barnes Bullets* For Mr. Nick Clyma and anyone else who has any questions about the operation Jess was hunting on, Mr Gus Bisset wrote us the following email to share:

Mr Clyma,
Thank you for your post on the results from our recent free range hunting adventure with our very good friends Jessica and Thad from Barnes Bullets.
As you can see, in was a phenomenal trip with an incredible array of superb free range animals and in fact the stag Jessica took is indeed a new free range world record that we are all very proud of and thrilled to be a part of.
Having been a very keen hunter all my life and as an outfitter ( NZ Trophy Hunting, deer, chamois, pig hunting in New Zealand back country), I would like to point out to you that I am very well aware of the difference between true free range and high fence game ranch hunting. I do this for a living and we offer hunts in both environments to suit the requirements of our many international and local hunting clientele.
We have a 3000 acre high country game ranch near Kurow in the lower South Island where we hunt for a number of species including massive red stag.All our hunters who choose to hunt in this area are well aware that this is a high fence situation and are very happy to hunt here as it is brush covered hill country and provides excellent and challenging hunting for several species.
We also have access to more than 250,000 acres of privately owned sheep and cattle ranch country in the Northern end of the South Island where we conduct TRUE free range hunting for many species including some of this countries largest wild, free ranging red stags.
There are no game ranches within hundreds of Kilometres of the remote ,mountainous areas we hunt and it is more than 500 Kilometres from our own game ranch.
Up until 6 years ago, the properties we hunt up there have not allowed any trophy hunting to take place for more than three decades prior to this and poor quality heads have been taken out and selective culls have taken place to manage the numbers and the quality of the animals. There is an abundance of red deer in the region and on these properties they get to grow old and some grow very big.
I have included a link to a free range hunt we filmed last year on the same property so you can see the type of hunt we provide in this area. The hunter is Gene Gordner, a custom gun maker from Montana and he took a free range black powder world record at the time with his 10 bore flintlock. Kilimanjaro Rifles & New Zealand Red Stag - YouTube
There are sheep and cattle low fences on the properties as they are working sheep and cattle ranches. You will see this on the film but as you will know, all deer species are more than capable of leaping these 4 foot fences and they do so daily.

I agree with you that there is some misleading information out there surrounding free range hunting in New Zealand, especially with red stags and yes, it is very difficult to find a true free range red stag much bigger than 300 SCI. However, small numbers of very big free range stags do exist on a few large expanses of privately owned land where there is careful culling, very low hunting pressure and good quality sheep and cattle pasture is present for good nutrition. This is the case on the free range areas we hunt.

Mr Clyma, I take a lot of pride in my hunting business and am very pleased to have been able to provide such a great free range hunt for my friends and to take a genuine world record while doing so, was an unexpected but well earned reward for all involved.

If you would like to know more facts about free range or game ranch hunting in New Zealand, or even if you want to experience this adventure for yourself, please don't hesitate to contact me direct on info@newzealandtrophyhunting.com or awateresafaris@gmail.com.

Regards

Gus Bisset
Manager & Professional Hunter
New Zealand Trophy Hunting
NZ Trophy Hunting, deer, chamois, pig hunting in New Zealand back country



My personal opinion is that the term "Free Range" can still be used loosely and I can't be convinced that high fenced deer don't "accidently" escape or aren't just blatantly released into the Free Range area. 
Australia in its true free range sense is stuffed really now. Half the heads in the record books are from NSW where there were no red deer liberations and have all come from escaped pen deer bred with superior genetics. It's the same here in VIC. I'm under no illusions about my big head I took a few weeks ago not having farmed genetics. which is part of the reason why I don't want to register him. In 2001 my old man took a red stag that was No. 20 in the Australian records with 270Douglas. He was a fair dinkum wild deer with no super genetics, now he's not even in there, my head makes him look like a 6 pointer. I agree its great having these monster deer but to me the true sense of "Free range wild deer" is gone forever in Australia. And by the looks of it, a lot of NZ

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## KiwiinSeattle

Hard to argue that the WORLD RECORD was in fact free range on a managed property.

_However, small numbers of very big free range stags do exist on a few large expanses of privately owned land where there is careful culling, very low hunting pressure and good quality sheep and cattle pasture is present for good nutrition. This is the case on the free range areas we hunt._

I fail to comprehend the "well earned reward" and "pride" associated with this type of activity - from either the customer or business perspective.

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## Bavarian_Hunter

> Hard to argue that the WORLD RECORD was in fact free range on a managed property.
> 
> _However, small numbers of very big free range stags do exist on a few large expanses of privately owned land where there is careful culling, very low hunting pressure and good quality sheep and cattle pasture is present for good nutrition. This is the case on the free range areas we hunt._
> 
> I fail to comprehend the "well earned reward" and "pride" associated with this type of activity - from either the customer or business perspective.


Too true my friend

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## KiwiinSeattle

While I do enjoy the challenge of hunting in NZ some may think it strange that I do not hunt in the U.S.A where I have been living for over 25 years.

Here are some photos that might help explain why. These were taken last July in the Pasayten Wilderness which is in the state of Washington just south of the Canadian border. We were 3 days out from the trail head where we started. These animals are truly wild and fearless of humans because no hunters would venture that far on foot and there are no other options for access - PERIOD.

Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest - Pasayten Wilderness

I have had similar encounters with truly wild deer in NZ around Te Anau whilst out fishing. They are fearless if they have never been hunted. We actually walked past three deer standing on the side of a DOC track one evening and then my mate shot one 20 minutes later after we crossed a river - 500m off the track.

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## GravelBen

That looks like a pretty sweet spot too, we certainly don't have a monopoly on scenery!  :Thumbsup:

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## Trusty222

> How many heads anywhere near that caliber prior to the 90's come out of Gisborne over 350?
> Cyclone boler and the venison crash helped Gisborne out. 
> Banwell's books are all you need to work it out vol 1 is a good start.


FYI R93, some stags from eastern Raukumara country, livies caught 1979, not in the 350 class , but some dam good feral blood all the same, sold for breeding stags back in the day
(Photos are my old mans)


I have these sawn off antlers at home and are about 38" to the cut at the brow tine



hot barrels

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## Rushy

Welcome to the forum trusty222

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## veitnamcam

That Vid posted above of the black powder trophy sure looks like the property i was talkin about earlier.


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## linyera

Really Wild deer in my country are characterized by not having lots of points in their horns because he used to walk in the deep woods, characterizes the thickness and length of the horns which is reflected in the weight of the head , that is more worth to qualify a good trophy according to my opinion

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## veitnamcam

Thats a beautiful head linyera

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## Rushy

> Thats a beautiful head linyera


Yep.  You would be chuffed with that if you shot it.

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## bsa89

Not my idea of hunting, but here a vid ive seen before

Winchester&#39;s Deadly Passion: World-Record New Zeland Red Stag - YouTube

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## Bavarian_Hunter

I've seen that BSA, haha I'm not sure there is even a criteria to claim a world record anymore. Just shoot one and its a world record. Although that one is clearly free range haha

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## linyera

unfortunately what most gives a trophy value can not be measured!! and is throw set itself ....that alone can measure the awareness of one hunter!....

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## phillipgr

This is why the trophy hunting game seems a bit silly to me. Here is a hunter who has never hunted even in the country where the trophy was taken, she hasn't spent any time map hunting, doing recces or learning the lay of the land, and the animal is taken from a place where there is little (or no) hunting pressure. The quality of a trophy says little about the quality of the hunter under these circumstances - so who is the record holder then? 

I like the way trophy hunting spurs hunters on to becoming highly skilled as to hunt an intelligent animal that "didn't get big by being dumb" but the head alone can't determine how hard it is to hunt the animal. 

I would be more proud of myself as a hunter if I took a 10pt off heavily hunted public land than I would if I shot the animal in the video above. 

Just my 2c and nothing against trophy hunters at all. 

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## Bavarian_Hunter

> This is why the trophy hunting game seems a bit silly to me. Here is a hunter who has never hunted even in the country where the trophy was taken, she hasn't spent any time map hunting, doing recces or learning the lay of the land, and the animal is taken from a place where there is little (or no) hunting pressure. The quality of a trophy says little about the quality of the hunter under these circumstances - so who is the record holder then? 
> 
> I like the way trophy hunting spurs hunters on to becoming highly skilled as to hunt an intelligent animal that "didn't get big by being dumb" but the head alone can't determine how hard it is to hunt the animal. 
> 
> I would be more proud of myself as a hunter if I took a 10pt off heavily hunted public land than I would if I shot the animal in the video above. 
> 
> Just my 2c and nothing against trophy hunters at all. 
> 
> Sent from my MT27i using Tapatalk 2


Very well said mate. Trophy hunting in itself isn't a dirty word depending on what you want out of it. My motto has always been that a trophy isn't measured in inches.

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## Happy

Shes got great TTTTTTTTT Teeth though ....

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## phillipgr

> Very well said mate. Trophy hunting in itself isn't a dirty word depending on what you want out of it. My motto has always been that a trophy isn't measured in inches.


Exactly. Thats something a love about hunting - you can't cheat it. The satisfaction I get from making a kill is directly related to the difficulty. Nothing can buy me the satisfaction, the only way to get it is to put in the hard yards. If I pay for an easy kill, it just won't be the same. 

As Rushy put it to me "every time I don't get one, I invest equity into the next time I do get one"

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## Gibo

Hurry up then!!!  :Psmiley:

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## phillipgr

> Hurry up then!!!


Didn't you listen to Rushy, I'm not a useless hunter I'm just saving up equity into my next kill  :ORLY:

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## Rushy

> Didn't you listen to Rushy, I'm not a useless hunter I'm just saving up equity into my next kill


Phillip if you are going to quote me you need to get it correct.  It is "sweat equity"

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## Bavarian_Hunter

Rushy I wasn't aware that you were a philosopher. Guess you're more than just a pretty face!

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## Rushy

> Guess you're more than just a pretty face!


Yes I am..  I am a fine judge of good whiskey and horse flesh as well.

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## Bavarian_Hunter

> Yes I am..  I am a fine judge of good whiskey and horse flesh as well.


I'm picturing you know sitting back on an Italian leather chair next to an open fire sipping on whiskey with a big mustache and a monocle surrounded by exotic game animal mounts on the high ceiling wall, most from Africa.

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## phillipgr

> I'm picturing you know sitting back on an Italian leather chair next to an open fire sipping on whiskey with a big mustache and a monocle surrounded by exotic game animal mounts on the high ceiling wall, most from Africa.


Don't forget the white suit.

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## Rushy

> I'm picturing you know sitting back on an Italian leather chair next to an open fire sipping on whiskey with a big mustache and a monocle surrounded by exotic game animal mounts on the high ceiling wall, most from Africa.


Steady on Jack.  I am just a boy from the bush.

----------


## Rushy

> Don't forget the white suit.


So that is how you see me Phillip.  Colonel fucking Sanders.  Ha ha ha ha

----------


## bsa89

I'm personally still after my 1st stag, but have definitely enjoyed learning the hard way bush hunting piropiro and the delicious meaty goodness I have got so far...

----------


## linyera

> This is why the trophy hunting game seems a bit silly to me. Here is a hunter who has never hunted even in the country where the trophy was taken, she hasn't spent any time map hunting, doing recces or learning the lay of the land, and the animal is taken from a place where there is little (or no) hunting pressure. The quality of a trophy says little about the quality of the hunter under these circumstances - so who is the record holder then? 
> 
> I like the way trophy hunting spurs hunters on to becoming highly skilled as to hunt an intelligent animal that "didn't get big by being dumb" but the head alone can't determine how hard it is to hunt the animal. 
> 
> 
> 
> I would be more proud of myself as a hunter if I took a 10pt off heavily hunted public land than I would if I shot the animal in the video above. 
> 
> Just my 2c and nothing against trophy hunters at all. 
> ...


totally agree !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!with you mate !!!! that is hunting !!! congrats !!!respect the essence of the hunt for the hunter

----------


## Druid

It must be very difficult to take a client on the hill and *guarantee* a free range trophy size deer head , no matter how well the property is managed , size would decrease unless new genetic stock is introduced , maybe in the shape of pregnant hinds .  It must be a constant worry trying to keep red deer from wandering into neighboring properties , All those farm tracks must help tho.

----------


## JP100

welcome to the world of bullshit guiding.
thats why I dont guide for red deer.

----------


## JP100

I am ashamed to say I have been involved in two 'canned' hunts.
its bullshit. Ile never do it again. I have lost alot of respect for gus after watching a vid of him involved in a heli hunt.

The rule with these stags(my understanding) is most properties like this have deer behind wire(a couple of thousand acres) which are truly huge. 
Then they have the rest of the farm(50 000+ acres) which has varying grades of deer on it. These are usually wild stock deer but every year they release a few big stags and cull the small ones. from what I have seen the big guys usually stay around the front of the blocks as the real wild stags beat the shit out of them come the roar.
they are "free range" as in there is no fence but it is no way hunting as we see it.
I can tell you after 2 months of guiding a wild stag on DOC land looks tiny. Stags in the 350+ range are very common on these properties

----------


## JP100

[QUOTE=Bavarian_Hunter;151338]Apparently Barnes wasn't very happy with my or another guys comments about this head and have contacted the guide asking whether it really was "Free Range" This is what they posted.....



*Barnes Bullets* For Mr. Nick Clyma and anyone else who has any questions about the operation Jess was hunting on, Mr Gus Bisset wrote us the following email to share:

Mr Clyma,
Thank you for your post on the results from our recent free range hunting adventure with our very good friends Jessica and Thad from Barnes Bullets.
As you can see, in was a phenomenal trip with an incredible array of superb free range animals and in fact the stag Jessica took is indeed a new free range world record that we are all very proud of and thrilled to be a part of.
Having been a very keen hunter all my life and as an outfitter ( NZ Trophy Hunting, deer, chamois, pig hunting in New Zealand back country), I would like to point out to you that I am very well aware of the difference between true free range and high fence game ranch hunting. I do this for a living and we offer hunts in both environments to suit the requirements of our many international and local hunting clientele.
We have a 3000 acre high country game ranch near Kurow in the lower South Island where we hunt for a number of species including massive red stag.All our hunters who choose to hunt in this area are well aware that this is a high fence situation and are very happy to hunt here as it is brush covered hill country and provides excellent and challenging hunting for several species.
We also have access to more than 250,000 acres of privately owned sheep and cattle ranch country in the Northern end of the South Island where we conduct TRUE free range hunting for many species including some of this countries largest wild, free ranging red stags.
There are no game ranches within hundreds of Kilometres of the remote ,mountainous areas we hunt and it is more than 500 Kilometres from our own game ranch.
Up until 6 years ago, the properties we hunt up there have not allowed any trophy hunting to take place for more than three decades prior to this and poor quality heads have been taken out and selective culls have taken place to manage the numbers and the quality of the animals. There is an abundance of red deer in the region and on these properties they get to grow old and some grow very big.
I have included a link to a free range hunt we filmed last year on the same property so you can see the type of hunt we provide in this area. The hunter is Gene Gordner, a custom gun maker from Montana and he took a free range black powder world record at the time with his 10 bore flintlock. Kilimanjaro Rifles & New Zealand Red Stag - YouTube
There are sheep and cattle low fences on the properties as they are working sheep and cattle ranches. You will see this on the film but as you will know, all deer species are more than capable of leaping these 4 foot fences and they do so daily.

I agree with you that there is some misleading information out there surrounding free range hunting in New Zealand, especially with red stags and yes, it is very difficult to find a true free range red stag much bigger than 300 SCI. However, small numbers of very big free range stags do exist on a few large expanses of privately owned land where there is careful culling, very low hunting pressure and good quality sheep and cattle pasture is present for good nutrition. This is the case on the free range areas we hunt.

Mr Clyma, I take a lot of pride in my hunting business and am very pleased to have been able to provide such a great free range hunt for my friends and to take a genuine world record while doing so, was an unexpected but well earned reward for all involved.

If you would like to know more facts about free range or game ranch hunting in New Zealand, or even if you want to experience this adventure for yourself, please don't hesitate to contact me direct on info@newzealandtrophyhunting.com or awateresafaris@gmail.com.

Regards

Gus Bisset
Manager & Professional Hunter
New Zealand Trophy Hunting
NZ Trophy Hunting, deer, chamois, pig hunting in New Zealand back country


Im calling  Bullshit here.




> We also have access to more than 250,000 acres of privately owned sheep and cattle ranch country in the Northern end of the South Island where we conduct TRUE free range hunting for many species including some of this countries largest wild, free ranging red stags.
> There are no game ranches within hundreds of Kilometres of the remote ,mountainous areas we hunt and it is more than 500 Kilometres from our own game ranch.


Considering the size of the south island(800km long) there is not many places that are "hundreds of kilometers" from deer farms. pretty much every where is close to a deer farm some where.

----------


## Wirehunt

Anyone thought it might be an sci record for a woman?

----------


## kiwi39

> Apparently Barnes wasn't very happy with my or another guys comments about this head and have contacted the guide asking whether it really was "Free Range" This is what they posted.....


where did you make the comments ? Just curious ..

----------


## Bavarian_Hunter

It was on their Facebook page a while back. I don't understand how every yank that comes over thinks they're going to shoot a world record. I wonder how many world record heads are on walls in North America with a duped bloke who's paid thousands of dollars for thinking he/she's it and a bit.

Wirehunt - No, it was number one wild red stag of all time.

----------


## veitnamcam

I guess if you have a few world record heads pre measured in the crush you advertise and sell them in order so each successive one is the new world record.
Be silly to sell the biggest of the season first if you had others that would also beat the current record.

----------


## JoshC

I may be wrong but...

....the largest free range truly wild red stag shot in NZ was taken in 1924. Douglas score 394 3/4, easily found on Google. 

Given Douglas score is measurement of smallest tine doubled, and SCI is adding up of length of every tine, one would imagine the SCI score of this head would be over 400 easily. 

World record for a lady makes sense, overall world record I'd find hard to believe (not a dig at you BH).

----------


## JP100

> I guess if you have a few world record heads pre measured in the crush you advertise and sell them in order so each successive one is the new world record.
> Be silly to sell the biggest of the season first if you had others that would also beat the current record.


Thats how it is at spey creek haha




> . Spey Creek is the place to go if you are after world records! Our hunters have shot three of the four largest stags in the world (#1, #3, and #4). They currently hold the #2 and #3 for rifle, the #1 and #2 for archery, and the #1 for cross bow!


Spey Creek Trophy Hunting New Zealand Red Stag Elk Hunts Kaikoura Lodge Deer Hunt Trophies Bow Rifle

----------


## Bavarian_Hunter

> Thats how it is at spey creek haha
> 
> 
> 
> Spey Creek Trophy Hunting New Zealand Red Stag Elk Hunts Kaikoura Lodge Deer Hunt Trophies Bow Rifle


Those things are vile!

----------


## Toby

Absolute rubbish heads. If anything they should be culled out of exsistance imo.

In saying that I bet the guys who shot them are pretty stoked

----------


## R93

Gussy B is just doing his job mate. He knows where it is at. I have and will hunt with him anytime. He is handy shooting from a machine as well.

----------


## Rushy

> Absolute rubbish heads. If anything they should be culled out of assistance imo.


Toby don't think of them as deer.  Think of them as product units that a business has developed to meet a growing demand.  One of the primary tenets of good business is to give customers what they want.  The safari parks through selective breeding and good stock feed management have continued to produce animals that meet the demand of global trophy hunters to achieve higher and higher scoring heads to set new world records.  As grotesque as they may look to the hunting purest that covets the perfect twelve or fourteen point red stag, these forty plus point animals make big money for their breeders/owners.  There is a stag on a neighbours property here that had forty eight points as a spiker and there are at least three adult stags over the fence that are worth at least fifty grand each where they are standing.  Think of my neighbour as a wholesaler and the safari parks as a retailer and you will get the picture that is a far better business to be in than my selling a run of the mill spiker to the meat works for five or six hundred dollars.

----------


## veitnamcam

Undoubtedly most of our original release bloodlines have been altered by escape and other releases to some extent.

My question is.
If one of these stags(probably die) or there offspring were released truly wild what would they likely develop head wise?
Would they be smaller lighter timber, points all over the place like a mad women's shit.
Or smaller lighter timber more traditional looking?

I think the former.

What say you lot?

----------


## Rushy

> Undoubtedly most of our original release bloodlines have been altered by escape and other releases to some extent.
> 
> My question is.
> If one of these stags(probably die) or there offspring were released truly wild what would they likely develop head wise?
> Would they be smaller lighter timber, points all over the place like a mad women's shit.
> Or smaller lighter timber more traditional looking?
> 
> I think the former.
> 
> What say you lot?


VC the access to good feed would be a large determinant in this scenario but it is likely the head would Still tend toward the mad woman's shit but just with fewer points.

----------


## Toby

Does the enviroment do much to the head. 

I can't imagine a stag with a head like that doing to well in proper bush

----------


## EeeBees

Toby, a classic example of what the environment does to heads and the size of the animals is to see the Stewart Island Whitetail (nutrition, nutrition)...in comparison, the whitetails I saw in Manitoba and Ontario are huge animals...I had the privilege of viewing a guy's Whitetail trophies...they were utterly fantastic...and they were not 'hedgehog' heads, but the real classic numbers...a friend of mine in upland Quebec, shot a two and a half year old whitetail stag...120 pounds of meat!

----------


## Rushy

> Does the enviroment do much to the head.


Hell yes.

----------


## phillipgr

A thought relating to toby's. Obviously the gene pool would have somethin to do with it too, but I wonder if part of the reason kaimai heads are so small is to do with the thick bush. Whether by natural selection (big heads were a survival disadvantage because they get tangled in suple jack) or by something else like the response of the antler to stunt growth in velvet when it gets battered around in the thick stuff so much.

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk 2

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## Dawg

Hey guys i am new to the form, as well as deer hunting but just wanted to share my unique perspective on what a  "trophy stag" is. In my opinion measuring the trophy value of a stag through the length and arrangement of the two bones poking out of its skull is a very primitive method of judging the true value of the animal. Instead i believe that the success of a particular hunt should be judged on the experience the hunter gains, and enjoyment of the meat he/ she harvests.

It seems Alien to me why many American hunters would want to come to a country that they probably would otherwise never have visited, to be lead up to and knock over a "trophy stag" that in my opinion has been breed solely for this purpose. Whats more is that they would then go and use a mathematical equation to measure the animals worth , before taking it home and dangling it off there wall in memory of a great "hunt".

Just my personal opinion...

----------


## EeeBees

I guess, Dawg, it all pretty much remains the individual's choices in the matter...I agree with you, any edible animal is a trophy with regard to sustenance.  Some hunters prefer animals with a rack that has great symmetry, not necessarily the measurations of it.   But we humans will collect articles that have meaning to us and if that includes taxidermy of every species of deer in the country, then so be it...to my eye, there is nothing quite as handsome as a very nicely mounted eight point Sika head...whether or not the oven was grateful!   And we can have a nonchalant view on the collection of trophies but when you bring down a stag with a head of great symmetry, you do feel greatly inclined to have it as an ornament on the wall.   And if you have hauled that animal out of rough country, and just about blown a gasket through your endeavour, after an exciting hunt where all your senses are on red alert, those eight points do really mean something...

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## Dawg

EeeBees, i absolutely agree with you that a hard earned stag that you have stalked, cleanly killed and carried out of the bush personally will have great sentimental value, and by all means have the head mounted and hung from your wall if you are so inclined. However what i find frustrating is when people, like this American woman and many others for that matter pay huge money to come to New Zealand solely to bring a massive stag head home to hang as an ornamental "hunting" trophy when i suspect very little hunting was actually involved. Personally the primary motive to go hunting is to hopefully harvest meat, after all ammunition and firearms aren't free and there has to be some economic return. If the animal that you happen to shoot is of trophy potential then that's a bonus, however i highly doubt that meat is the primary motivation for international trophy hunters travelling to New Zealand.

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## EeeBees

No meat is not the motive.  Hyperthetically, if you were given an opportunity to hunt Reds on an estate in Scotland would you decline?

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## MattyP

> Thats how it is at spey creek haha
> 
> 
> 
> Spey Creek Trophy Hunting New Zealand Red Stag Elk Hunts Kaikoura Lodge Deer Hunt Trophies Bow Rifle


God damn. At what point does it become animal cruelty making the things walk around with fucking trees on their heads?

I'm not against anyone making a buck or ripping some yanks off, but anyone ever worn even an older style (heavier) headlamp all night? Can be amazingly tough on the neck just a little bit more weight.

Pretty new to hunting and no trophy inclination. Any trophy I ever take will be something I did all on my own. Don't understand paying tens of thousands and having your hand held the whole way. Mind you, I guess it's not too different from feeders and tree stands so maybe that's where it stems from.

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## Dawg

EeeBees, Hypothetically if i was given the chance to hunt anywhere new i would take up the opportunity to gain experience and meet new hunters, however i would not be interested in paying money to be guided up to some animal regardless of its trophy potential, to shoot and hang on my wall whether it be in an operation run here in New Zealand or in Scotland.

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## deepsouthaussie

'Free Range' the term is used as loosley as the writing you see on egg cartons.. 

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

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## username

Sorry but if i won $1m bucks i would be on the next flight to the states to hunt moose, bear, caribou, Dall sheep, mountain goat.  I hope to hunt at least one of them before my time is up. Same diff! None of you want to do this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Toby

> Sorry but if i won $1m bucks i would be on the next flight to the states to hunt moose, bear, caribou, Dall sheep, mountain goat.  I hope to hunt at least one of them before my time is up. Same diff! None of you want to do this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd like to go shooting pigs from a helicopter in Texas that looks fun

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## JP100

> Sorry but if i won $1m bucks i would be on the next flight to the states to hunt moose, bear, caribou, Dall sheep, mountain goat.  I hope to hunt at least one of them before my time is up. Same diff! None of you want to do this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


shit yea thats the dream. but those animals are wild. not breed in pens.

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## veitnamcam

> Sorry but if i won $1m bucks i would be on the next flight to the states to hunt moose, bear, caribou, Dall sheep, mountain goat.  I hope to hunt at least one of them before my time is up. Same diff! None of you want to do this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Would you want to "hunt" any of the above that had been farmed and let out of the enclosure the day before just for you to shoot?

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## username

I was more getting at the guided part. My understanding is that you can only hunt these animals through outfitters


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## EeeBees

> God damn. At what point does it become animal cruelty making the things walk around with fucking trees on their heads?
> 
> I'm not against anyone making a buck or ripping some yanks off, but anyone ever worn even an older style (heavier) headlamp all night? Can be amazingly tough on the neck just a little bit more weight.
> 
> Pretty new to hunting and no trophy inclination. Any trophy I ever take will be something I did all on my own. Don't understand paying tens of thousands and having your hand held the whole way. Mind you, I guess it's not too different from feeders and tree stands so maybe that's where it stems from.


MattyP, you write you have no trophy inclination but you are ok with people 'ripping yanks off' as you put it...

----------


## MattyP

> MattyP, you write you have no trophy inclination but you are ok with people 'ripping yanks off' as you put it...


Yup. Nothing against someone selling something if there is a market for it. I'm just not in the market for it and don't understand those who are - so from my point of view they are being ripped  :Have A Nice Day: . 

The two are mutually exclusive I would've thought.

As mentioned, I do feel for those monsters poor necks though!

----------


## Bavarian_Hunter

> God damn. At what point does it become animal cruelty making the things walk around with fucking trees on their heads?
> 
> I'm not against anyone making a buck or ripping some yanks off, but anyone ever worn even an older style (heavier) headlamp all night? Can be amazingly tough on the neck just a little bit more weight.
> 
> Pretty new to hunting and no trophy inclination. Any trophy I ever take will be something I did all on my own. Don't understand paying tens of thousands and having your hand held the whole way. Mind you, I guess it's not too different from feeders and tree stands so maybe that's where it stems from.


That's not a very well thought out post.

----------


## Barnes Lady

Well guys, I just happened on your thread and thought I ought to put to rest all of these questions and misunderstandings I've read here! I'm Jessica Brooks-Stevens, the hunter who took the "world record reed deer" you're all discussing. I do not own Barnes Bullets, rather, my parents (Randy & Coni Brooks) purchased Barnes Bullets in 1974. They built the business from the ground up. I began working at Barnes when I was 4 years old stuffing lead cores into copper jackets, and have worked in just about every department here. I am currently the Marketing & Product Manager. I went on my first hunt when I was 4 years old - an elk hunt in the mountains of Colorado with my dad - and have been hooked ever since. I am both a trophy and subsistence hunter. I eat what I kill here in the states, and I love the adventures I've had hunting all over the world. I very much enjoyed hunting the South Island last April, and plan to come back this year. I prefer to hunt free range, although I do not castigate those who hunt high fence areas with reputable operations. The stag is a bona-fide true free range stag and I assure you as an American western hunter, this hunt was no hand-holding exercise. It was comparable to hunting mule deer and elk in our high Utah Rocky Mountains.

To clarify, this stag is currently the SCI FREE RANGE WORLD RECORD RED STAG, scoring 359 6/8 SCI points. SCI, and FREE RANGE. We are all well aware that this is by no means the ALL-AROUND WORLD RECORD RED STAG. This is only for SCI, and only for FREE RANGE. That said, when I saw this brute from afar, I couldn't have given a damn if he was a world record or not. He was absolutely beautiful on the hoof - a very majestic site to see him roaring and gathering his HINDS (yes, I realize I originally spelled it Heinz in my story, but I can hardly understand you damned Kiwi's sometimes! HAHA). The hunt was incredible - I was full of adrenaline and exhausted at the end. I can't wait to go back.

Now, I'm going to pontificate here based on discussions with Gus Bisset, who is a great personal friend, a solid business associate, a phenomenal PH who made this all happen, and works for New Zealand Trophy Hunting. NZTH has a 3000 acre high country game ranch near Kurow in the lower South Island where they hunt for a number of species including massive red stag. All of their hunters who choose to hunt in that area are well aware that this is a high fence situation and are very happy to hunt there as it is brush covered hill country and provides excellent and challenging hunting for several species.

Gus also has access to more than 250,000 acres of privately owned sheep and cattle ranch country in the Northern end of the South Island where he conducts TRUE free range hunting for many species including some of NZs largest wild, free ranging red stags.
There are no game ranches within hundreds of Kilometres of the remote , mountainous areas where he hunts, and it is more than 500 Kilometres from their game ranch. In fact, up until 6 years ago, trophy hunting was not allowed on the sheep and cattle ranches for more than three decades prior to this time. Gus put in a lot of hard work and selective culling to manage the numbers and quality of the animals. There is an abundance of red deer in the region and on these properties they get to grow old and some grow very big.

I understand there is some misleading information out there surrounding free range hunting in New Zealand, and that it is very difficult to find a true free range red stag much bigger than 300 SCI. However, as per Gus, I have it that small numbers of very big free range stags do exist on a few large expanses of privately owned land where there is careful culling, very low hunting pressure and good quality sheep and cattle pasture for good nutrition. This is the case on the free range areas where we hunted last year with Gus. We plan to hunt other areas with him this year for free range Tahr, Chamois and Fallow buck. So, maybe you ornery ol' Kiwis will be a bit welcome and keen to welcome a Yankee Girl to your land down under???  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Wirehunt

Good on ya BL.

----------


## andyanimal31

+1


> Good on ya BL.

----------


## Dundee

That was a good read Barnes Lady :Thumbsup:

----------


## Gibo

> Well guys, I just happened on your thread and thought I ought to put to rest all of these questions and misunderstandings I've read here! I'm Jessica Brooks-Stevens, the hunter who took the "world record reed deer" you're all discussing. I do not own Barnes Bullets, rather, my parents (Randy & Coni Brooks) purchased Barnes Bullets in 1974. They built the business from the ground up. I began working at Barnes when I was 4 years old stuffing lead cores into copper jackets, and have worked in just about every department here. I am currently the Marketing & Product Manager. I went on my first hunt when I was 4 years old - an elk hunt in the mountains of Colorado with my dad - and have been hooked ever since. I am both a trophy and subsistence hunter. I eat what I kill here in the states, and I love the adventures I've had hunting all over the world. I very much enjoyed hunting the South Island last April, and plan to come back this year. I prefer to hunt free range, although I do not castigate those who hunt high fence areas with reputable operations. The stag is a bona-fide true free range stag and I assure you as an American western hunter, this hunt was no hand-holding exercise. It was comparable to hunting mule deer and elk in our high Utah Rocky Mountains.
> 
> To clarify, this stag is currently the SCI FREE RANGE WORLD RECORD RED STAG, scoring 359 6/8 SCI points. SCI, and FREE RANGE. We are all well aware that this is by no means the ALL-AROUND WORLD RECORD RED STAG. This is only for SCI, and only for FREE RANGE. That said, when I saw this brute from afar, I couldn't have given a damn if he was a world record or not. He was absolutely beautiful on the hoof - a very majestic site to see him roaring and gathering his HINDS (yes, I realize I originally spelled it Heinz in my story, but I can hardly understand you damned Kiwi's sometimes! HAHA). The hunt was incredible - I was full of adrenaline and exhausted at the end. I can't wait to go back.
> 
> Now, I'm going to pontificate here based on discussions with Gus Bisset, who is a great personal friend, a solid business associate, a phenomenal PH who made this all happen, and works for New Zealand Trophy Hunting. NZTH has a 3000 acre high country game ranch near Kurow in the lower South Island where they hunt for a number of species including massive red stag. All of their hunters who choose to hunt in that area are well aware that this is a high fence situation and are very happy to hunt there as it is brush covered hill country and provides excellent and challenging hunting for several species.
> 
> Gus also has access to more than 250,000 acres of privately owned sheep and cattle ranch country in the Northern end of the South Island where he conducts TRUE free range hunting for many species including some of NZ’s largest wild, free ranging red stags.
> There are no game ranches within hundreds of Kilometres of the remote , mountainous areas where he hunts, and it is more than 500 Kilometres from their game ranch. In fact, up until 6 years ago, trophy hunting was not allowed on the sheep and cattle ranches for more than three decades prior to this time. Gus put in a lot of hard work and selective culling to manage the numbers and quality of the animals. There is an abundance of red deer in the region and on these properties they get to grow old and some grow very big.
> 
> I understand there is some misleading information out there surrounding free range hunting in New Zealand, and that it is very difficult to find a true free range red stag much bigger than 300 SCI. However, as per Gus, I have it that small numbers of very big free range stags do exist on a few large expanses of privately owned land where there is careful culling, very low hunting pressure and good quality sheep and cattle pasture for good nutrition. This is the case on the free range areas where we hunted last year with Gus. We plan to hunt other areas with him this year for free range Tahr, Chamois and Fallow buck. So, maybe you ornery ol' Kiwis will be a bit welcome and keen to welcome a Yankee Girl to your land down under???


Cool read  :Grin:  Got any photos?

----------


## Scouser

Well explained there BL, i hope you enjoy your next visit to our shores, and hope you haven't taken offence to some ambiguity from the post.....always good to get both sides of every story.....nice one chickadee!!!!!!!

----------


## Rushy

I don't mean to be antagonistic and I am going to probably step out of line here but if an animal is shot on a private sheep and cattle farm or estate (sorry I can't bring myself to calling it a ranch in New Zealand) then how can it be considered free range?  The bloody thing is behind wire (irrespective of whether it could jump the seven wire fence blindfolded).

----------


## Toby

> I don't mean to be antagonistic and I am going to probably step out of line here but if an animal is shot on a private sheep and cattle farm or estate (sorry I can't bring myself to calling it a ranch in New Zealand) then how can it be considered free range?  The bloody thing is behind wire (irrespective of whether it could jump the seven wire fence blindfolded).


I'm with you Rushy. even though most of my deer I've shot have been on private land I still kinda think of them as farm deer. Still doesn't stop me shooting them but not the same as a deer on public land anyone can shoot at.

----------


## Gibo

Agree guys, I buy free range eggs but they still have a fence between the nest and the supermaket shelf  :Grin:

----------


## Scouser

> I don't mean to be antagonistic and I am going to probably step out of line here but if an animal is shot on a private sheep and cattle farm or estate (sorry I can't bring myself to calling it a ranch in New Zealand) then how can it be considered free range?  The bloody thing is behind wire (irrespective of whether it could jump the seven wire fence blindfolded).


Agree Rushy, thats why i put up the thread on 'Canned Hunting', i wanted to see the forum members views on what they consider a 'Trophy Head'.......my first deer was on a farm on a guided hunt, i did not consider it a 'hunt'.....didnt want to be a hypocrite.....

----------


## ebf

> Gus also has access to more than 250,000 acres of privately owned sheep and cattle ranch country in the Northern end of the South Island where he conducts TRUE free range hunting for many species including some of NZs largest wild, free ranging red stags.
> *There are no game ranches within hundreds of Kilometres of the remote , mountainous areas where he hunts*, and it is more than 500 Kilometres from their game ranch.


Welcome to the forum BL.

Are you sure you are talking about the right island ? Maybe you are confusing it with West Island (aka Australia) ? If you look carefully at a map of the upper part of the south island of New Zealand, you will notice that the sea is never more than a maximum of 100km from any point...

"True free range" for most of us on here means public land - NO fences...

----------


## Gibo

> Welcome to the forum BL.
> 
> Are you sure you are talking about the right island ? Maybe you are confusing it with West Island (aka Australia) ? If you look carefully at a map of the upper part of the south island of New Zealand, you will notice that the sea is never more than a maximum of 100km from any point...
> 
> "True free range" for most of us on here means public land - NO fences...


Spot on

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## Wirehunt

> I don't mean to be antagonistic and I am going to probably step out of line here but if an animal is shot on a private sheep and cattle farm or estate (sorry I can't bring myself to calling it a ranch in New Zealand) then how can it be considered free range?  The bloody thing is behind wire (irrespective of whether it could jump the seven wire fence blindfolded).


Fucking bullshit Rushy.  You haven't seen the stations down here.  Or if you have you've got a fucking short memory.
Head out of arse about now would be fitting.

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## Rushy

> Agree guys, I buy free range eggs but they still have a fence between the nest and the supermaket shelf


That and the question of "Organic" is a whole other discussion we can have around a camp fire one night Gibo. "Organic Beef" pfffft, of course it is fucking organic, it lives and breathes. (We need a fuck me dead emoticon).

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## Gibo

> That and the question of "Organic" is a whole other discussion we can have around a camp fire one night Gibo. "Organic Beef" pfffft, of course it is fucking organic, it lives and breathes. (We need a fuck me dead emoticon).


I use this one  :XD:  or sometimes this one  :Zomg:

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## Ground Control

I have no dog in this fight , but always assumed that " free range " meant "public land" accessible to all ?

Ken

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## Toby

> Are you sure you are talking about the right island ? Maybe you are confusing it with West Island (aka Australia) ? If you look carefully at a map of the upper part of the south island of New Zealand, you will notice that the sea is never more than a maximum of 100km from any point...


I read it as the free range farm she shot the stag on was 500km away from the fenced farm in the lower south

Red being the 250,000 acre free range hunting blue being the 3000 acre gamepark

this is just a rough idea I have no idea where the property's are

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## ebf

yup toby, got that part, i was commenting on the "hundreds of km to closest game farm" nonsense.. yeah right, no game farms near aorangi, nelson, kaikoura etc, haha.

the guy might have access to 250K acre (if you add all the properties together), but how large was the actual block (or maybe I should say paddock) she shot the deer in ?  :Grin:

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## Bavarian_Hunter

The other thing is that the guide also offers estate hunts, so what, he's got this little mecca of free range 100's of miles from his farmed stuff and anyone elses? I'd think it'd be more likely he has the deer farm at (X) and bordering it literally on the fence line is (Y) a property with a less high fence (free range apparently!)

Free range or no though the only reason this would be number one is because its scored using a system that (basiccally) only guides taking Americans use, other than that, the Southern Hemisphere is Douglas Score. You want to get a true measurement of the head score it in Douglas and compare it to its cohort, being the other animals taken in the same country. 

I realise SCI is international, but its pretty much America's own international scoring system when they go somewhere else because they can't use B&C and P&Y.

What this hunt has done is essentially the same as me going to the USA, shooting a 2 year old 4pt mule deer, scoring it in Douglas and claiming it as a world record. 

I do have to agree with the comments here though, true free range hunting should be deer that can be hunted fair and square by anyone. Hunt on private with no fences but where you have exclusive access  - there is still a boundary albeit invisible that segregates you from others and who can hunt where. That's why I never used "free range" in my personal life until very recently (in the past year) because I hunt mostly private property where its just me, my brother and my old man that can hunt there pretty much. Not really free range if its us or no one that can shoot them. I call them simply "wild deer", because thats what they are, but then the lines get muddied again, what if you have a huge high fenced area like some properties in NZ with 100s 1000s acres where the deer live and breed essentially wild and free and are fearful of humans? Isn't that wild?

This politics and contradiction crap is why I hunt only for me, I personally wouldnt hunt in small pens, (though I have no issues with people that like to as long as they arent trying to pass it off as anything else) but for the most part I don't care whether its public or private or whatever as long as I'm enjoying it and having fun and that the animals if they outwit me can get away. But as soon as you start putting a label on something, along the lines of "I've taken a world record" then you need to be able to back it up. 

That's part of the reason why I don't score my heads, having blokes whinging and  arguing over an 1/8" here and 1/6" there, and debating whether to score a tine because iy is a couple of degrees in the wrong direction and crap like that. The measure of a trophy for me is in the blood, sweat and tears that have been put into getting them, the antlers sure are important and I refuse to shoot a stag I know I'll do nothing with just for the sake of shooting him but they're really secondary to the hunt and effort gone into it. 

At the end of the day though as much as I love venison I'm first and foremost a trophy hunter and because of that I love big deer and love seeing big deer other people take. (My favourites are big old heads as opposed to high scoring heads, nothing beats an old battler).
But a deer you shoot is what it is and I see people like Phillip who shot his first Sika hind last year and Scouser with his 8pt stag this year and I loved how excited they were and obviously truthful. But if you have to make one lie or exaggeration about your deer to make it seem better than what it is, whether its adding score, claiming it as "free range hundreds of miles from anywhere" or making an easy hunt into something gruelling then you obviously dont respect the animal for what it is and you didnt deserve to have it die at your hands. 
For example, my fallow buck I shot with my bow last year will probably be the best I ever shoot but I didnt need to make up any elaborate lie about the hunt, I rocked up Friday after work, sat on a game trail and within an hour or so he walked up to 35m from me and I shot him, the hunt doesn't rank amongst my most grueling or strategical best but it and the animal are what they are and I'm not ashamed of that.

I realise at times I've had strong opinions here, but that's all they are, my opinions, and just like arseholes, we all have em and they're all different so keep pinging off your own.

I will comment to BarnesLady on one thing though - I love Barnes, particularly the TTSX and will never stop reloading them BUT I contacted you guys with a fairly simple question last year and never heard anything back, bit disappointing on the customer service side of things though aside from that, they're the best hunting bullets in the world in my opinion.

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## Rushy

All fair comment BH

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## Scouser

> All fair comment BH


+1 this is what the forum is all about, free speech and opinions shared, feel free guys n gals.......

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## Barnes Lady

> Welcome to the forum BL.
> 
> Are you sure you are talking about the right island ? Maybe you are confusing it with West Island (aka Australia) ? If you look carefully at a map of the upper part of the south island of New Zealand, you will notice that the sea is never more than a maximum of 100km from any point...
> 
> "True free range" for most of us on here means public land - NO fences...


Having hunted Australia as well, I'm pretty sure I was hunting NZ. The plane did land in Christchurch and we drove north, but there are no land bridges from NZ to Aussie that I'm aware of? If you call that much acreage of cattle and sheep stations "high fence" then it might be you're a bit vertically challenged? Just because it's on private land, does not mean it is not "free range". By definition, free range animals can be taken on public or private land. The bottom line is that those red deer where I hunted can leave the station any time they want. They are not "fenced in". That is the definition of high fenced hunting - if the animal can leave the property on its own, it is "free range". Any fences on that place for the cattle and sheep can definitely be cleared by a red deer. You may have personal opinions to the contrary, and I will respect that, but for the books and professionally this defines free range vs. high fence.

Now, let's all be friends and play nice. I hope some of you are Barnes fans???

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## Barnes Lady

> The other thing is that the guide also offers estate hunts, so what, he's got this little mecca of free range 100's of miles from his farmed stuff and anyone elses? I'd think it'd be more likely he has the deer farm at (X) and bordering it literally on the fence line is (Y) a property with a less high fence (free range apparently!)
> 
> Free range or no though the only reason this would be number one is because its scored using a system that (basiccally) only guides taking Americans use, other than that, the Southern Hemisphere is Douglas Score. You want to get a true measurement of the head score it in Douglas and compare it to its cohort, being the other animals taken in the same country. 
> 
> I realise SCI is international, but its pretty much America's own international scoring system when they go somewhere else because they can't use B&C and P&Y.
> 
> What this hunt has done is essentially the same as me going to the USA, shooting a 2 year old 4pt mule deer, scoring it in Douglas and claiming it as a world record. 
> 
> I do have to agree with the comments here though, true free range hunting should be deer that can be hunted fair and square by anyone. Hunt on private with no fences but where you have exclusive access  - there is still a boundary albeit invisible that segregates you from others and who can hunt where. That's why I never used "free range" in my personal life until very recently (in the past year) because I hunt mostly private property where its just me, my brother and my old man that can hunt there pretty much. Not really free range if its us or no one that can shoot them. I call them simply "wild deer", because thats what they are, but then the lines get muddied again, what if you have a huge high fenced area like some properties in NZ with 100s 1000s acres where the deer live and breed essentially wild and free and are fearful of humans? Isn't that wild?
> ...


BH, your opinions are indeed strong, and frankly I very much appreciate your honesty. I completely agree with you that SCI is pretty much America's own scoring system, but again, I have always been forthright and claimed the stag as what it is: the SCI free range world record. And that is the truth. Guys, realize as well that I have hunted for all of these years not only because I love to hunt and enjoy venison, but also for business purposes. I would like to post a story as related to me by my father, Randy Brooks, for a past edition of the online Barnes Club-X Newsletter:

_The late, great Col. Charles Askins was an old and very dear friend of mine who taught me an invaluable lesson. Our relationship goes back to the early days when Coni and I were still learning the ropes about how to run a bullet business. Charlie called me up one day to order some of our old Barnes Original 416 caliber FMJs. He told me that he had killed 80 buffalo and was on his way to 100. I was flattered when he said Barnes Bullets would be used to accomplish this task, and promptly sent the package to him.

I received another call shortly thereafter from Charlie. He said Boy, I didnt order hollow-points, I ordered full metal jackets. I explained to him that the bullets were made from tubing and swaged closed at both ends, leaving a small pin-hole in the nose to give the appearance of a small hollow-point. I assured him they would work well on dangerous game. This was a bullet Fred Barnes began building in the 30s and hunters had been using them in Africa for years with great success. He politely listened to my entire sales pitch, and when I was done, he said Listen Boy, how many buffalo have you shot?

His question caught me way off guard because I hadnt taken any! I was embarrassed, and realized that although I was telling a seasoned veteran how well this bullet would perform, I had absolutely no personal experience to back up my statement. What gave me the right? So, I answered him honestly and said None. He replied, in true Charlie Askins fashion, Well, I dont want a horn up my ass! I was speechless because he had me cold. I realized that I was nothing more than a salesman at that point in regards to Barnes Bullets performance on dangerous game. When our conversation was finished I hung up the phone, turned to Coni and said something to the effect of Thats the last time Ill have a conversation with anybody where my experience is called into question. Within a few months, I was in Africa and had shot three Cape buffalo and an elephant. From that year forward I spent a minimum of 100 days a year in the field, hunting all types of game._

The reason I shared that story is to illustrate that Barnes builds excellent products because we use our bullets on a large variety of game the world over, and can speak to bullet performance based on experience. We do our best to get the word out about our experience to let hunter's know what they can expect on game they pursue, promote the product and promote the brand. That's the business side. I will also say that growing up, Barnes Bullets was like another child at our dinner table. Our family is passionate about this company and its products, and we would never intentionally do anything to damage the reputation we worked so hard for so many years to build. All that said, we hunt for ourselves as well with no company involvement or promotion. Last year, my absolute favorite hunt was our own Utah mule deer season. In Utah, we must draw mule deer tags. My husband, oldest son and I (luckily) all drew out. The season spans two weekends, so the first weekend I hunted with my son. He took a respectable muley trophy. His wife and my two grandkids were there to celebrate a successful hunt with us. Afterwards, I headed to the high country to meet up with my husband. He took a respectable muley as well. We hunted hard the rest of the week for me. I put a tough stalk on a huge buck and blew him out of his bed within bow range. It was so exciting!!! My husband watched the whole thing from atop a knoll - he said he could barely stand to sit still as he watched me get that close to a buck of a lifetime. Oh well, that's hunting, and we had a blast.

There will always be those with differing opinions from ourselves. As I said, I'm ok with that as long as we do it in a respectful manner and everyone's voice can be heard. I thank you for hearing mine, and wish you all good hunting, no matter your ideas about what hunting is to you - as long as it is ethical and promotes our sport in a positive way. Being one of the faces of Barnes, and for the love and preservation of the sport, I endeavor to do that very thing.

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## Rushy

Barnes Lady, it is a sign of maturity that people can hold differing opinions and agree to disagree and then get on with it.  In the instance of SCI's definition of free range I happen to disagree but let that not prevent me from welcoming you to our wonderful forum.  Your posts thus far have been frank and balanced and I look forward to your future contributions.

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## 7mmwsm

> Well guys, I just happened on your thread and thought I ought to put to rest all of these questions and misunderstandings I've read here! I'm Jessica Brooks-Stevens, the hunter who took the "world record reed deer" you're all discussing. I do not own Barnes Bullets, rather, my parents (Randy & Coni Brooks) purchased Barnes Bullets in 1974. They built the business from the ground up. I began working at Barnes when I was 4 years old stuffing lead cores into copper jackets, and have worked in just about every department here. I am currently the Marketing & Product Manager. I went on my first hunt when I was 4 years old - an elk hunt in the mountains of Colorado with my dad - and have been hooked ever since. I am both a trophy and subsistence hunter. I eat what I kill here in the states, and I love the adventures I've had hunting all over the world. I very much enjoyed hunting the South Island last April, and plan to come back this year. I prefer to hunt free range, although I do not castigate those who hunt high fence areas with reputable operations. The stag is a bona-fide true free range stag and I assure you as an American western hunter, this hunt was no hand-holding exercise. It was comparable to hunting mule deer and elk in our high Utah Rocky Mountains.
> 
> To clarify, this stag is currently the SCI FREE RANGE WORLD RECORD RED STAG, scoring 359 6/8 SCI points. SCI, and FREE RANGE. We are all well aware that this is by no means the ALL-AROUND WORLD RECORD RED STAG. This is only for SCI, and only for FREE RANGE. That said, when I saw this brute from afar, I couldn't have given a damn if he was a world record or not. He was absolutely beautiful on the hoof - a very majestic site to see him roaring and gathering his HINDS (yes, I realize I originally spelled it Heinz in my story, but I can hardly understand you damned Kiwi's sometimes! HAHA). The hunt was incredible - I was full of adrenaline and exhausted at the end. I can't wait to go back.
> 
> Now, I'm going to pontificate here based on discussions with Gus Bisset, who is a great personal friend, a solid business associate, a phenomenal PH who made this all happen, and works for New Zealand Trophy Hunting. NZTH has a 3000 acre high country game ranch near Kurow in the lower South Island where they hunt for a number of species including massive red stag. All of their hunters who choose to hunt in that area are well aware that this is a high fence situation and are very happy to hunt there as it is brush covered hill country and provides excellent and challenging hunting for several species.
> 
> Gus also has access to more than 250,000 acres of privately owned sheep and cattle ranch country in the Northern end of the South Island where he conducts TRUE free range hunting for many species including some of NZs largest wild, free ranging red stags.
> There are no game ranches within hundreds of Kilometres of the remote , mountainous areas where he hunts, and it is more than 500 Kilometres from their game ranch. In fact, up until 6 years ago, trophy hunting was not allowed on the sheep and cattle ranches for more than three decades prior to this time. Gus put in a lot of hard work and selective culling to manage the numbers and quality of the animals. There is an abundance of red deer in the region and on these properties they get to grow old and some grow very big.
> 
> I understand there is some misleading information out there surrounding free range hunting in New Zealand, and that it is very difficult to find a true free range red stag much bigger than 300 SCI. However, as per Gus, I have it that small numbers of very big free range stags do exist on a few large expanses of privately owned land where there is careful culling, very low hunting pressure and good quality sheep and cattle pasture for good nutrition. This is the case on the free range areas where we hunted last year with Gus. We plan to hunt other areas with him this year for free range Tahr, Chamois and Fallow buck. So, maybe you ornery ol' Kiwis will be a bit welcome and keen to welcome a Yankee Girl to your land down under???


Well said Barnes Lady. 
Some of the replies about your post appear to be from "hunters" who are so pure that they don't consider a trophy to be worthy unless it has never had the opportunity to jump over any man made structure.
They also need to remember that the ancestors of every game animal in New Zealand spent a considerable amount of time in captivity while being shipped here.
We also have islands in NZ which are smaller than some game ranches. The animals can not escape the island. But it is quite acceptable to hunt on these islands.

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## Toby

I'd use barnes projectiles if they didn't cost so much

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## kiwi39

I bought a box of Barnes for the 223 soon after I started reloading. They shoot sub MORA (minute of rats arse) and I thought then the best thing ever until I saw they were  basically double the price of the next best.

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## PerazziSC3

> Fucking bullshit Rushy.  You haven't seen the stations down here.  Or if you have you've got a fucking short memory.
> Head out of arse about now would be fitting.


yep totally agree.

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## R93

There is nothing free range about that animal at all. 
It was taken in an area that has never produced a stag close to that quality until deer farming or game parks started showing up. 
Shoot one like that out of the Olivine, Cascade or Aspiring areas like a couple have in the last 10 years and that is true non influenced free range hunting. Getting some random bits of Nz bush caught in your barrel channel would be impressive as well.
You paid serious money to have exclusive rights as far as access and rights to shoot it.
Not my idea of free range either.  

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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## Barefoot

> I don't mean to be antagonistic and I am going to probably step out of line here but if an animal is shot on a private sheep and cattle farm or estate (sorry I can't bring myself to calling it a ranch in New Zealand) then how can it be considered free range?  The bloody thing is behind wire (irrespective of whether it could jump the seven wire fence blindfolded).


There are fences in Woodhill, are the fallow deer there free range?  :Wink: 
Some of the gorges and mountains are a larger impediment to deer than any sheep fence.
Oh, and welcome Barnes Lady

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## Colorado

In the US there is a sizable amount of public land that is fenced and used for grazing. There is public land interspersed with private land. There is no way of knowing whether your trophy jumped over a public fence or a private one. 
A private land holder cannot round up the deer on his property,that would be illegal. The animals are free to move off of his land. By some hunter's definitions it seems they would be free range animals when on public land and not free range when they cross onto private land. I do not believe it is the owner of the land that makes a deer free range or not , but rather the height of the fence.

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## Rushy

> Fucking bullshit Rushy.  You haven't seen the stations down here.  Or if you have you've got a fucking short memory.
> Head out of arse about now would be fitting.


My head doesn't fit up my arse as it is to tight.  Which bit is fucking bullshit?

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## Rushy

> There are fences in Woodhill, are the fallow deer there free range?


No they are not.  They are on private land and are owned by the local iwi.

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## Wirehunt

> I don't mean to be antagonistic and I am going to probably step out of line here but if an animal is shot on a private sheep and cattle farm or estate (sorry I can't bring myself to calling it a ranch in New Zealand) then how can it be considered free range?  The bloody thing is behind wire (irrespective of whether it could jump the seven wire fence blindfolded).


This one Rushy.  
Plenty of stations where the back fence is actually just a ridge or a god damned range.   There is also plenty of stations that have harder ground than I'd normally hunt.
In fact I know of one where there is tahr (outside the tahr area)  I'll pay for you to come down and shoot an animal on it.  The tip?  Good luck.  You might not like going from 500 metres to 1500.  But there's a back fence you say, yep, that fucker is down by the road at 600 metres.  It's still all part of a station so it's not free range.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: 
I can take you to dozens and dozens of places like this.

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## Wirehunt

Barnes Lady,

Fiordland next April, consider this an official invite.  :Grin:  The heads are crap, but man alive do you earn them, and everything is pretty well shot at bow range.

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## Rushy

> This one Rushy.  
> Plenty of stations where the back fence is actually just a ridge or a god damned range.   There is also plenty of stations that have harder ground than I'd normally hunt.
> In fact I know of one where there is tahr (outside the tahr area)  I'll pay for you to come down and shoot an animal on it.  The tip?  Good luck.  You might not like going from 500 metres to 1500.  But there's a back fence you say, yep, that fucker is down by the road at 600 metres.  It's still all part of a station so it's not free range.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: 
> I can take you to dozens and dozens of places like this.


Hmmm, clearly we have completely different views on the matter and as Barnes Lady generously acknowledges, it is fine for that to be the case.   It comes down to which definition you subscribe to Wirehunt. For me any genetic influence in the animal from the intervention of man (selective breeding influence) rules the animal out of my definition of free range (as does its being taken on private land. No amount of debate will cause me to ever change my view on that. Thanks for the offer of the trip by the way. I just might take you up on that one day.

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## PerazziSC3

So the only free range deer you will shoot is doc land? As soon as you step foot on private land its not free range??? Even if thw private land doesnt have a deer fence in sight?  :ORLY:

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## Scouser

Agree Rushy, if i cant hunt it for 'free', free meaning i dont have to pay the land owner for the privilege of shooting it and paying extra for every point on its head, then its not free range,

It has been protected to grow that old and sprout those monstrous racks, so 'some' rich bastard can come and drop it.......I dont care how big the property is @Wirehunt or how long they took to drive over there in the landy.....just my 2c

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## Scouser

> Barnes Lady,
> 
> Fiordland next April, consider this an official invite.  The heads are crap, but man alive do you earn them, and everything is pretty well shot at bow range.


Now thats 'Free Range'........

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## R93

Speaking for myself only. For me to class an animal as a trophy it must have been able to be taken by anybody else. Not paid for and taken on private property where only a select few have access.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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## Rushy

> So the only free range deer you will shoot is doc land? As soon as you step foot on private land its not free range??? Even if thw private land doesnt have a deer fence in sight?


Yep.  That is my opinion. I acknowledge that others feel differently and I am comfortable with that.  For the record, if I am after venison, I will shoot deer anywhere I find them, that is legal for me to shoot at the time.  I am also equally happy to not pull the trigger for any one of a multitude of reasons.

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## jord

I'm with Rushy 100%. Free range is an animal that hasn't been interfered with in any way to benefit the hunter. Selective breeding or selected access ie. private land. That's what me and mine believe anyway. 


Sent from my Browning

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## Haggie

What if someone just owns a large parcel of land and only lets his mates/family hunt on it but at no cost (just doesnt want people all over their shit) and has some untouched (in the last few generations at least) animals roving around? youd have to consider those free range

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## Scouser

> What if someone just owns a large parcel of land and only lets his mates/family hunt on it but at no cost (just doesnt want people all over their shit) and has some untouched (in the last few generations at least) animals roving around? youd have to consider those free range


Hi Haggie, what constitutes 'large' in 'large parcel of land'?.....if the land owner leaves a certain stag he 'owns' that has symmetrical antlers, he then leaves it
to age long enough to grow 'royals' then shoots it and proclaims 'Free range Douglas score NZ record'....i would laugh in his face and say hes full of shit.....

Thats what this discussion is about, take away these misleading terms of 'free range & wild deer'....has the trophy stag in question been left alone for a long enough period to become a world class trophy, because they rarely exist on DOC land

they have (the majority) been shot out in consecutive years during 'Roars'....all these monster stags you see in hunting magazines with a smiling grey haired yank are on 'private property'..........just like the lady in question......again just my 2c

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## Bavarian_Hunter

> What if someone just owns a large parcel of land and only lets his mates/family hunt on it but at no cost (just doesnt want people all over their shit) and has some untouched (in the last few generations at least) animals roving around? youd have to consider those free range


Old mate down the road that isn't allowed to shoot on it wouldnt consider it so.

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## PerazziSC3

> Hi Haggie, what constitutes 'large' in 'large parcel of land'?.....if the land owner leaves a certain stag he 'owns' that has symmetrical antlers, he then leaves it
> to age long enough to grow 'royals' then shoots it and proclaims 'Free range Douglas score NZ record'....i would laugh in his face and say hes full of shit.....
> c


You no the only reason big stags are shot on doc land is cause some good bugger has likely seen him the yeat before and decided to leqve him. By your definition that means he's no longer free range cause its had influence

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## Scouser

> You no the only reason big stags are shot on doc land is cause some good bugger has likely seen him the yeat before and decided to leqve him. By your definition that means he's no longer free range cause its had influence


Hmmm.......I think you twisting my words a bit here...........'By your definition that means he's no longer free range'..............there is no guarantee that the 'good bugger' will 'bag him' next year when he has a better rack because he is on DOC land, free for all to shoot any time of the year......

on private land he is kept aside, till the guy/gal with the big wallet comes along....that is what i am trying to get across, i dont care how big /small the station/property is, he has been SELECTED for a special purpose....a 'trophy head'....and more importantly 'CASH'

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## PerazziSC3

> Hmmm.......I think you twisting my words a bit here...........'By your definition that means he's no longer free range'..............there is no guarantee that the 'good bugger' will 'bag him' next year when he has a better rack because he is on DOC land, free for all to shoot any time of the year......
> 
> on private land he is kept aside, till the guy/gal with the big wallet comes along....that is what i am trying to get across, i dont care how big /small the station/property is, he has been SELECTED for a special purpose....a 'trophy head'....and more importantly 'CASH'


Agree to disagree.

Im not talking about anybody paying any money or any game preserve. Im talking about joe bloggs going over to his mates sheep farm and bagging a cracker stag on the edge of a doc block. Just so happens the stag walked 100m onto the private side.... 
Still not free range enough?

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## subs

Dont really want to wade in on this but.... my two cents.
I hunt public, private and public that borders private that i can also access, I work just as hard for most of the private stuff as I do for public land animals, none of the private access is crawling with deer, what id call a natural level of animals and it hasnt been influenced by outside genes...yet.
I would consider a good stag from these private areas as genuine free range animal and would feel no different from shooting it on public land. 
I can understand where people are coming from with these managed high country station's that have heap of animals and farm genes in them, although it can be hardish hunting it simply dont count.
What im getting at is that alot of this backcountry private land is just as hard to hunt as public and with as few animals,  and its amazing how many of these cockies will let you on, if you just turn up and ask. Just dont turn up as a camo clad ballbag.
Its going to get harder to get these big genuine wild stags in the future, with all the escapees round, soon it will take a very remote stag to be wild blood.
That and the helicopters can fuck off.

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## PerazziSC3

Another one for you scouser. What about the joker that uses a chopper to get right up into some big country that would not be accessed by foot. Is this still free range? Or not because not everyone can afford a chopper to get there?

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## Happy

> Hmmm.......I think you twisting my words a bit here...........'By your definition that means he's no longer free range'..............there is no guarantee that the 'good bugger' will 'bag him' next year when he has a better rack because he is on DOC land, free for all to shoot any time of the year......
> 
> on private land he is kept aside, till the guy/gal with the big wallet comes along....that is what i am trying to get across, i dont care how big /small the station/property is, he has been SELECTED for a special purpose....a 'trophy head'....and more importantly 'CASH'


I got a big fat pile of CASH for my big fat two year old Private Block beefies the other day. The one I kept was shot through the fence .. 
They too were selected for a purpose !!

What's the difference between that and the above.. These had no hope in hell of getting away.. The deer on private blocks surely don't just walk up and say shoot me ??
Its what we all do in one form or another. Spend your money your way.. Others will do the same. Who cares you just need to be able to look yourself in the mirror and be sure if you choose to go to private blocks you act with respect and no wastage,,    :Thumbsup:   :Grin:

----------


## Scouser

> Agree to disagree.
> 
> Im not talking about anybody paying any money or any game preserve. Im talking about joe bloggs going over to his mates sheep farm and bagging a cracker stag on the edge of a doc block. Just so happens the stag walked 100m onto the private side.... 
> Still not free range enough?


I would consider that free range because of the circumstances you have explained, the animal in question was 'born' in the wild on DOC land and just happened to be shot on 'private land'....i think were getting away from the jist of this thread

Which is....drum roll please......Do the forum members consider a 'Douglas, SCI or any other organisation Trophy head, as a real, free range (as in ANYBODY can shoot it, not paying clients) Stag.....thats the simple question, although as we have all
seen there are many ways of looking at it....i think by now my position on this subject is well known & clear...if theres a vote and im in the minority, so be it, just want to sound out the members for their honest opinion, cheers

----------


## Scouser

> Another one for you scouser. What about the joker that uses a chopper to get right up into some big country that would not be accessed by foot. Is this still free range? Or not because not everyone can afford a chopper to get there?


If he/she shoots the stag, do they have to pay for it?....or are they choppered into DOC land like loads of hunters are at present for the roar, im not going on about 'access', im going on about 'selected large trophy stags that are kept for paying clients'

if you cant understand the difference between the two sides of the argument: 

1) an overseas client bragging "look at me ive just shot a world record free range stag" and 

2) you typical kiwi hunter who saves up for his/her once a year 'roar hunt' 

then we will get nowhere with this discussion, do you see what im trying to say here?

----------


## Scouser

> I got a big fat pile of CASH for my big fat two year old Private Block beefies the other day. The one I kept was shot through the fence .. 
> They too were selected for a purpose !!
> 
> What's the difference between that and the above.. These had no hope in hell of getting away.. The deer on private blocks surely don't just walk up and say shoot me ??
> Its what we all do in one form or another. Spend your money your way.. Others will do the same. Who cares you just need to be able to look yourself in the mirror and be sure if you choose to go to private blocks you act with respect and no wastage,,


Hi Happy, i have no 'beef' (pardon the pun) with what you've done.....but your not going public with your photo next to the beast with 'World SCI free range record' above your smiling dial....the lady in question (and that is what this thread is all about) IS.......

----------


## Scouser

This is what im going on about......Client Experiences - Hunting Trophy Red Stag in New Zealand - RedStagHuntingNewZealand.com - Sunspots Safaris

----------


## Wirehunt

Righto, here's one that's fuck you lot.
In the last 24 hours I know of a 10,12 and a 14 pointer getting knocked over.  Public land, yep, but landlocked almost by farms.  Still fucking good of the local cockies to get the feed into them so much with their winter swedes etc. Well? Are they free range or not?

By the way, this is true story, along with a 9 pointer last week. And some rather large mobs...

----------


## Spook

Fuck sakes...next it will only be those that take stags with sharp sticks that can claim trophy status.

A trophy head is in the eye of the beholder...no other opinion matters.

All deer in the Kaimai-Mamaku Forest have been genetically mismanaged due to the accidental release several years ago of two Wapiti/Red X stags escaping from the works near the summit.

----------


## deepsouthaussie

I buy 'free range' eggs from the cobber down the road. They've got a wee paddock they cruise round in. Could probably leave if they wanted to, but the feed and shelter are too good. Im yet to come across 'wild' chicken eggs.  I think the term ' free range' has been used appropriately by barnes lady. Lets not confuse it with a wild deer. Pretty simple.

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## Rushy

> All deer in the Kaimai-Mamaku Forest have been genetically mismanaged due to the accidental release several years ago of two Wapiti/Red X stags escaping from the works near the summit.


Duncan's Spook?

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## big_foot

> Righto, here's one that's fuck you lot.
> In the last 24 hours I know of a 10,12 and a 14 pointer getting knocked over.  Public land, yep, but landlocked almost by farms.  Still fucking good of the local cockies to get the feed into them so much with their winter swedes etc. Well? Are they free range or not?
> 
> By the way, this is true story, along with a 9 pointer last week. And some rather large mobs...


Haha I was waiting for this one to come up :ORLY: 

In terms of "paying" to hunt a block, Every so often I have to "spend" a couple of minutes of my time plus a peice of a4 paper and some printer ink to get my permit to hunt doc land, as little and insignificant as it may be, by "spending" these resources it gives me more rights to hunt doc land than some one who hasnt. 

A number of times we've read about guys leaving a stag to let it mature to a better head or taking a scruby one to get it out of the gene pool. Not to mention if we see a good stag in velvet and leave it till it hardens?

I'm not gunna tell anyone they are right or wrong but I beleive that if an animal is not liberated or a result of selective breeding and is not held on any one property by a fence or man made structure suitable of containing said animal then it is free range. Lets face it ALL land in New Zealand is owned by some one be it a high country station or a doc block in one way or another you have to pay for the right to hunt it, it might be a 1c peice of paper, a box of piss, a leg of venison or $10,000.

Anyway thats my opinion, on another note welcome along Barnes Lady, I think we should all appreciate the fact that youve set a bar that hopefully a lot of your countrymen/women can come down here and challenge it :Thumbsup:

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## kiwi39

All of this is a bit beyond me, I'm afraid. 

I love guns, and hunting. I shoot for meat, and to destroy pests, and I'm not really into trophies, but I do understand that others do enjoy the challenge of hunting the big stags. 

What I cant ever understand is paying to shoot a big stag thats bred for its trophy potential. Most of them are "free range" in as much as they are bred on a farm and released to be free range.

I know this happens in New Zealand - there's an entire industry built around breeding stags for the perfect form, perfect head, big Douglas score etc, and these stags are sold to hunting 

I really cant understand how you can pay to hunt a trophy class animal and be proud enough of your efforts that you claim it as a world record. Regardless of whether @Barnes Lady paid for her trophy or whether it was a purely marketing expense for the guided hunting industry, its not hunting as I ( and I suspect many of you) know it and love it. 

Each to their own, though, as @R93's tagline says .. "Do What ya want !! Ya will anyway !!! " 

Regards 

Tim

----------


## R93

I'm in the process now of planning a whitetail hunt in Canada. I can hunt on a non resident tag. Cheaper, but buggered if I can find a free range hunting outfitter. Got some help from a forum member that's been there and done that free range so I am hoping for a good result.
Can't think of anything worse than shooting a deer from a heated tree stand that's feeding from an automatic feeder. Seems to be the norm over there tho.
If I can't get a free range hunt I won't be doing a whitetail over there.


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## Dundee

genetically fucked up Whitetail

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## R93

That's just sad! 


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## FRST

The value of a true trophy is very subjective. 

But personally I can't imagine a canned hunt trophy would be nearly as satisfying as a trophy gained from pitting yourself against- Doc and their 1080 drops, helicopters thrashing the alps, hours of research into historically good hunting areas, winning a ballot, getting enough time off work, NZ's knack of producing trip destroying weather, rough interislander crossings, walking for days, trying to hold your mountain radio antenna wire high enough to get reception in pouring rain, turning down average heads, etc etc... 

I was so elated after getting my first Tahr trophy against these conditions that I couldn't sleep that night, I just kept replaying the hunt.

I ain't saying that a canned hunt can't be exciting for people. Just that everyone has a different threshold.

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## Scouser

> genetically fucked up Whitetail
> Attachment 22745


Fuk Dundee your a dagg.......crack up mate!!!!!!

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## 7mmwsm

> No they are not.  They are on private land and are owned by the local iwi.


I have hunted on ballot blocks at Woodhill which do have fences on them.

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## Scouser

> The value of a true trophy is very subjective. 
> 
> But personally I can't imagine a canned hunt trophy would be nearly as satisfying as a trophy gained from pitting yourself against- Doc and their 1080 drops, helicopters thrashing the alps, hours of research into historically good hunting areas, winning a ballot, getting enough time off work, NZ's knack of producing trip destroying weather, rough interislander crossings, walking for days, trying to hold your mountain radio antenna wire high enough to get reception in pouring rain, turning down average heads, etc etc... 
> 
> I was so elated after getting my first Tahr trophy against these conditions that I couldn't sleep that night, I just kept replaying the hunt.
> 
> I ain't saying that a canned hunt can't be exciting for people. Just that everyone has a different threshold.


MAAATE.......im in your camp......a trophy like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....hal ey fukin loooya!!!!!

----------


## Scouser

> Righto, here's one that's fuck you lot.
> In the last 24 hours I know of a 10,12 and a 14 pointer getting knocked over.  Public land, yep, but landlocked almost by farms.  Still fucking good of the local cockies to get the feed into them so much with their winter swedes etc. Well? Are they free range or not?
> 
> By the way, this is true story, along with a 9 pointer last week. And some rather large mobs...


Wirehunt, please mate, im NOT putting what your saying down, FFS im on about PAYING CLIENTS COMING FROM OVERSEAS AND 'STATING ON FACEBOOK' AND IN THIS CASE A WELL KNOW AMERICAN BULLET MANUFACTURERS WEBSITE THAT 'THEY' HAVE SHOT A WORLD RECORD and wait for it on 'FREE FUKIN RANGE' STAG......

thats the whole fukin point of my comments on this thread, its just (in my humble opinion, i might be be wrong, but i know im fukin not) my honest view on this emotive subject.......i know fuck all mate, ive only hunted for just on one year, shot 2 deer and one was guided  on a deer farm, im not trying to piss on anybodies parade or trophy stag wether they paid cash or sweat and blood........

----------


## Scouser

> All of this is a bit beyond me, I'm afraid. 
> 
> I love guns, and hunting. I shoot for meat, and to destroy pests, and I'm not really into trophies, but I do understand that others do enjoy the challenge of hunting the big stags. 
> 
> What I cant ever understand is paying to shoot a big stag thats bred for its trophy potential. Most of them are "free range" in as much as they are bred on a farm and released to be free range.
> 
> I know this happens in New Zealand - there's an entire industry built around breeding stags for the perfect form, perfect head, big Douglas score etc, and these stags are sold to hunting 
> 
> I really cant understand how you can pay to hunt a trophy class animal and be proud enough of your efforts that you claim it as a world record. Regardless of whether @Barnes Lady paid for her trophy or whether it was a purely marketing expense for the guided hunting industry, its not hunting as I ( and I suspect many of you) know it and love it. 
> ...


+ 1 Tim......thats exactly my view of 'hunting'.......

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## Wirehunt

Do any of these free range proponents duckshoot?

You better not say you feed the pond...

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## Scouser

> Do any of these free range proponents duckshoot?
> 
> You better not say you feed the pond...


Oh fuk mate, im not going there, haharrrrrr......i duck hunt on a river, it would all sweep past me......guys?????

----------


## 7mmwsm

> Wirehunt, please mate, im NOT putting what your saying down, FFS im on about PAYING CLIENTS COMING FROM OVERSEAS AND 'STATING ON FACEBOOK' AND IN THIS CASE A WELL KNOW AMERICAN BULLET MANUFACTURERS WEBSITE THAT 'THEY' HAVE SHOT A WORLD RECORD and wait for it on 'FREE FUKIN RANGE' STAG......
> 
> thats the whole fukin point of my comments on this thread, its just (in my humble opinion, i might be be wrong, but i know im fukin not) my honest view on this emotive subject.......i know fuck all mate, ive only hunted for just on one year, shot 2 deer and one was guided  on a deer farm, im not trying to piss on anybodies parade or trophy stag wether they paid cash or sweat and blood........


So do you know of a higher scoring stag being recorded under the same criteria as Barnes Ladies animal? 
I doubt a person of her standing would have written such a statement if it was not a world record. 
The rules will probably be avaiable for you to reserch if you can be bothered.

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## Scouser

> So do you know of a higher scoring stag being recorded under the same criteria as Barnes Ladies animal? 
> I doubt a person of her standing would have written such a statement if it was not a world record. 
> The rules will probably be avaiable for you to reserch if you can be bothered.


7mmwsm.....where do i (in any of my threads above) question the SCI score????.....i dont give a shit about the score, I GIVE A SHIT ABOUT IT BEING CALLED 'FREE RANGE'.........why is this so difficult to understand????

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## Happy

Wicked big stag. Totally natural I think perhaps not but I m not an expert in any way. Keep bringing your money over
and spending it here. I m sure there's more sent the other way by members of this forum alone
and thanks for promoting NZ as the PLACE to visit so your country men contribute to our economy as well.

 I couldn't do that. I don't have a room big enough to put it in !!  :Thumbsup:   :Grin:

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## 7mmwsm

> 7mmwsm.....where do i (in any of my threads above) question the SCI score????.....i dont give a shit about the score, I GIVE A SHIT ABOUT IT BEING CALLED 'FREE RANGE'.........why is this so difficult to understand????


So take it up with Safari Club International. Tell them you think their rules are crap.
Under their rules, apparently Barnes Ladies stag is a world record. WHY IS THAT SO DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?

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## Happy

> . WHY IS THAT SO DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?


She paid to hunt it and he doesn't like that part plus in his opinion its not a free range stag but by their rules it obviously fits that criteria ??
.. Each to their own I say ..
Spend your hard earned $ as you wish ...

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## Scouser

> So take it up with Safari Club International. Tell them you think their rules are crap.
> Under their rules, apparently Barnes Ladies stag is a world record. WHY IS THAT SO DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?


Sigh......Im done with this thread.......hope you all have an enjoyable w'end and shoot the Stag of your dreams this Roar..... whether it be 'free range'...'off the range'....or even 'out of range'......Bye

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## Happy

> 'free range'...'off the range'....or even 'out of range'......


Ha ha   :Grin:   :Grin:   :Thumbsup:

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## Barnes Lady

Look what I did!!! I created one big banter!!! One thing I'll say is that I enjoyed getting into it with you guys. It was, if nothing else, super entertaining! Good thing I've got thick skin. Some of this would make most women cry their eyes out, or tear out yours!  :Pissed Off: 

No worries, mates. All good discussion and I especially thank all the welcomes from the group. You bet I'll be back to spend money in your wonderful country, but maybe y'all could do something about those horrible photos on your derm packets? (smokes, cigs, or whatever Kiwis call them) Holy shit! The US government would never get away with making the cigarette makers put that stuff on their packaging! WOW!

Cheers! BTW, my friends call me "Jess".  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Spook

> Look what I did!!! I created one big banter!!! One thing I'll say is that I enjoyed getting into it with you guys. It was, if nothing else, super entertaining! Good thing I've got thick skin. Some of this would make most women cry their eyes out, or tear out yours! 
> 
> No worries, mates. All good discussion and I especially thank all the welcomes from the group. You bet I'll be back to spend money in your wonderful country, but maybe y'all could do something about those horrible photos on your derm packets? (smokes, cigs, or whatever Kiwis call them) Holy shit! The US government would never get away with making the cigarette makers put that stuff on their packaging! WOW!
> 
> Cheers! BTW, my friends call me "Jess".


Always a shame about the ciggy packets...but uncle Peter and aunty Tariana want their people to have longer lives.

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## kiwijames

> Look what I did!!! I created one big banter!!! One thing I'll say is that I enjoyed getting into it with you guys. It was, if nothing else, super entertaining! Good thing I've got thick skin. Some of this would make most women cry their eyes out, or tear out yours! 
> 
> No worries, mates. All good discussion and I especially thank all the welcomes from the group. You bet I'll be back to spend money in your wonderful country, but maybe y'all could do something about those horrible photos on your derm packets? (smokes, cigs, or whatever Kiwis call them) Holy shit! The US government would never get away with making the cigarette makers put that stuff on their packaging! WOW!
> 
> Cheers! BTW, my friends call me "Jess".


You'll want to ditch the darts anyway @Barnes Lady, for your upcoming Fiordland hunt with @Wirehunt you will need all the oxygen you can muster.

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## Dynastar27

> Always a shame about the ciggy packets...but uncle Peter and aunty Tariana want their people to have longer lives.


To be honest i dont even look at the pack haha tend just to ignore it now 

man this thread got a bit heated up was a awesome read lol  :Thumbsup: 

and barneslady welcome to the fourm  :Thumbsup:

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## Scouser

> Look what I did!!! I created one big banter!!! One thing I'll say is that I enjoyed getting into it with you guys. It was, if nothing else, super entertaining! Good thing I've got thick skin. Some of this would make most women cry their eyes out, or tear out yours! 
> 
> No worries, mates. All good discussion and I especially thank all the welcomes from the group. You bet I'll be back to spend money in your wonderful country, but maybe y'all could do something about those horrible photos on your derm packets? (smokes, cigs, or whatever Kiwis call them) Holy shit! The US government would never get away with making the cigarette makers put that stuff on their packaging! WOW!
> 
> Cheers! BTW, my friends call me "Jess".


Hi Jess, you've dragged me back in darlin....just so you know, i have no personal vendetta against you personally, if we ever meet i reckon we would get on like a 'house on fire', were both hunters after all.....its just that i have this 'opinion' about the term

'Free Range' when it comes to the (quite frankly) magnificent Stag youve acquired....i just have a really hard time when the animal in question is shot on a Hunting Business property!

If you venture onto the thread started by Roberto from Austria, you will see in my (biased) eyes an overseas visitor who will leave our shores with an entirely different take on hunting, all (to my knowledge) done on 'free range DOC land' where every person
entering the land has an equal chance, depending on your experience and skill set.....that is what I get from hunting, the challenge, were the animal gets a fair chance to live another day...especially when im after them!!!!!!!!

i can tell from your responses so far that you are 'thick skinned' and can take a bit of stick, (hope that does not get lost in translation) please down load a DOC hunting permit on your next visit and pit your skills against the animals on this land it is very
rewarding and any/every animal you take will have a very special memory when you leave

Cheers, BTW, my friends call me "Eric" (or arsehole!) haharrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........go girl!!!!!

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## veitnamcam

Welcome Barnes Lady, Im a big fan of the 130ttsx in 30 cal for short to medium range, has more than enough penetration for ANY animal we have on public land.

As for the whole free range thing my 2cents is there really should be some "managed" class to add to the free range sector of trophy's.

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## username

> Hi Jess, you've dragged me back in darlin....just so you know, i have no personal vendetta against you personally, if we ever meet i reckon we would get on like a 'house on fire', were both hunters after all.....its just that i have this 'opinion' about the term
> 
> 'Free Range' when it comes to the (quite frankly) magnificent Stag youve acquired....i just have a really hard time when the animal in question is shot on a Hunting Business property!
> 
> If you venture onto the thread started by Roberto from Austria, you will see in my (biased) eyes an overseas visitor who will leave our shores with an entirely different take on hunting, all (to my knowledge) done on 'free range DOC land' where every person
> entering the land has an equal chance, depending on your experience and skill set.....that is what I get from hunting, the challenge, were the animal gets a fair chance to live another day...especially when im after them!!!!!!!!
> 
> i can tell from your responses so far that you are 'thick skinned' and can take a bit of stick, (hope that does not get lost in translation) please down load a DOC hunting permit on your next visit and pit your skills against the animals on this land it is very
> rewarding and any/every animal you take will have a very special memory when you leave
> ...


A. she said her "friends" call her jess :Wink: 
B. We got your point pages ago no need to reiterate over and over.
C. Its not the New Zealand public land record. Or "what NZ hunters think free range is" world record. Its the free range world record with its own rules and regulations set by what ever international organisation. And i bet its not the only one on their  books shot in these circumstances.

It seems to me everyone is arguing about two different things the new zealand standard and the international standard.

Congrats @Barnes Lady


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## Scouser

Hi Username, i was only answering questions thrown at me....its called debate

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## Wirehunt

If that is the head BL got then it's very believable that it's free range.  Note, it's only a 15 pointer FFS.

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## Ground Control

I'd be interested in knowing if in all the years choppers have harvested Deer , and before them Government ground shooters , starting from when there really was a wild Free Range herds roaming NZ back country .
Has there been a Head of this type , configuration , recovered before , from the wild , by a hunter that's not from overseas ? 
Im not talking size , that could be explained by food quality animal health .
Or does this stand out as unusual and out of place ?
I'm not shit stirring , it's a genuine question .


Ken

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## craigc

What Jess did here in New Zealand is perfectly normal in her home country, NZ guides (outfitters) understand this and target cash rich Americans for a very good reason! It's a magnificent animal and I'm sure she and her party spent plenty of cash while they were here...

There's no way I would travel half way around the world to hunt unless I was guaranteed a animal, there's too much time and cash invested in it to take a chance.

We should be celebrating what Jess has achieved, she seems to be a remarkable person.

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## sneeze

> What Jess did here in New Zealand is perfectly normal in her home country, NZ guides (outfitters) understand this and target cash rich Americans for a very good reason! It's a magnificent animal and I'm sure she and her party spent plenty of cash while they were here...
> 
> There's no way I would travel half way around the world to hunt unless I was guaranteed a animal, there's too much time and cash invested in it to take a chance.
> 
> We should be celebrating what Jess has achieved, she seems to be a remarkable person.


 Yeah pretty much. 
 Holden held the nurburgring lap record  ............  for utes.  It is what it is and needs to seen as such.
Barns Lady  The only thing that annoys me a little is this habbit of  sitting way behind the animal in the photo to make it appear bigger. Its a great animal, be proud of what it is and get up close and personal for the pics. (But thats just me I guess).
 Give up the cancer sticks , take wirehunt up on the fiordland offer and bring a heap of 6 and 7mm free samples packs  :Thumbsup:

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## R93

Add .5 to those 6mm projectiles. Must be a typo surely  :Have A Nice Day:  
Shooting rat stags in Fiordland would be easier than the one you got. Couldn't think of anything less challenging as far as free range hunting goes. Like rabbits and just as easy in some areas.




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## sneeze

> Add .5 to those 6mm projectiles. Must be a typo surely  
> Shooting rat stags in Fiordland would be easier than the one you got. Couldn't think of anything less challenging as far as free range hunting goes. Like rabbits and just as easy in some areas.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



But finding a head like the one in the pic? Or a decent wap?
And what would you do with  a 7.5mm bullet?

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## veitnamcam

Hit it with a hammer untill it is 7.62mm?

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## R93

Your still good at maffs like me I see?
WH offered at rat stag hunt. Not a trophy hunt.
There are only a couple spots I would try and target trophy reds in Fiordland anyway. Chamois are better than anywhere else on average tho


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## sneeze

Hes from the coast remember, those extra thumbs make it hard to hold a hammer.

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## sneeze

> Your still good at maffs like me I see?
> WH offered at rat stag hunt. Not a trophy hunt.
> There are only a couple spots I would try and target trophy reds in Fiordland anyway. Chamois are better than anywhere else on average tho
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Ha... to many things going on here at once. i should pay more attention

Or.... why let that facts get in the way?

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## R93

> Hes from the coast remember, those extra thumbs make it hard to hold a hammer.


That's not true! Adam gave me his camera to take footage of him shooting a stag on Wed. I missed the stag part but got some awesome pics of my thumb?!? :Have A Nice Day: 
He couldn't go hunting yesty coz his girlfriend said so. 
After she seen my thumb pic she asked if I would take her hunting.


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## sneeze



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## kiwi39

> Hes from the coast remember, those extra thumbs make it hard to hold a hammer.


Yeah but we got one (or in some cases two) up on you guys when it comes to counting on our fingers ay

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## Ground Control

G'day

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## P38

:Thumbsup:

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## Sniper

Hi all. I haven't read this post through as I'm not really interested in it. But out of curiosity, if I roll a stag this roar, how do I go about getting it scored? Is it something people just do themselves, or is it a club only type of thing? Can anyone get a WR, or again only clubies?

Tim

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## Rushy

> Hi all. I haven't read this post through as I'm not really interested in it. But out of curiosity, if I roll a stag this roar, how do I go about getting it scored? Is it something people just do themselves, or is it a club only type of thing? Can anyone get a WR, or again only clubies?
> 
> Tim


Tim your local NZDA will be able to sort scoring for you.  NZDA use the Douglas score whereas this thread is about an animal scored under the SCI (Safari Club International) spring system. If you wanted an animal scored under the SCI system then game parks and or some breeders would be able to assist.

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## Sniper

Thanks @Rushy. Will have to go online and have a read up me thinks.

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## big_foot

> Thanks @Rushy. Will have to go online and have a read up me thinks.


Me thinks someones got a big boy lined up, hope its not one you've seen before and let mature...it might loose its "free range" status :Zomg:

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## Sniper

> Me thinks someones got a big boy lined up, hope its not one you've seen before and let mature...it might loose its "free range" status


Haha, not even close. There def isn't any thing on the radar. Was purely interested. But in saying that, if I get one, it was planned.

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## Barefoot

You never know what you will run into Sniper so good luck. :Thumbsup:

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## Sniper

> You never know what you will run into Sniper so good luck.


Yep, thats my attitude. My good mate bagged his first ever animal the other week. Nice 10 pointer. His brother  @bsa89 roared it in. Pearler first. Will see if Im allowed to put up on behalf.

 :Grin:

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## Moa Hunter

Personally I don't think that stag is very big.
For a start the score is SCI which optimizes the score by measuring every inch, whereas the Douglas method measures the shortest tyne and doubles it but does not score extra unpaired tynes. That woman is not very tall if you compare her to the rifle, in saying that I would probably let her score my inches if she asked.

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## A330driver

Quote..."That woman is not very tall if you compare her to the rifle, in saying that I would probably let her score my inches if she asked."

So mate..... lol ..... an awesome gesture on your part.......can't stop laughing.....a fine offer indeed,im sure amusement on both sides,

If it does happen ,please Fwd measurements so that the the " Boone &crockett"records can be adjusted ,as a world record kiwi Cock would be something to marvel...

Your a legend mate...pure and simple...lol...your killing me......and most of all......GOOD LUCK RAHORE!!!

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