# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Could we do more

## chindit

After a long chat with a arms officer I will outline a few things she said and ask you a few questions. Plenty of police hate on here so you will probably hate me too after this.
Almost all drug busts dope/meths firearms are found.
I /we would be surprised the number of law abiding usually older rural people that have a gun with no licence and the number of rifles stored behind the door under the bed or in the wardrobe.
Its not unusual for a safe to be ripped of the wall and stolen and when the bolt and ammo are in the safe they have usable saleable guns.
People have no idea of the serial numbers they own, so when firearms are recovered we cant find the owner or link them to a theft.
So I ask you---is your safe / cabinet secure and well fixed. Big washers on the fixings. If you wanted to get into it or rip it off the wall how easy is it.
Bolts and ammo, are yours separate. If not why. You may have many guns or other reasons but the little box in the top of the safe is no better than the bolt in the gun.
Serial numbers, do you have a list of your serial numbers. If the worst happened could you say to the police this is what was taken and the serial numbers are ???. New laws coming and I think we could have done more in the past. I am off to take a note of my serial numbers as I don't have a clue what they are. Your thoughts, do you still love me or is it all over between us.  :Grin:

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## Timmay

Yea mate, those serial numbers are gonna stop those crim's dead in their tracks. 
To answer your question about safe security:  I wouldn't have a problem if everyone needed to store firearms in a safe as opposed to a locked hot water cupboard etc

However if they want it they will get it

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## Ryan

Serial numbers can easily be "scratched" anyway...

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## Kscott

> Serial numbers, do you have a list of your serial numbers. If the worst happened could you say to the police this is what was taken and the serial numbers are ???.


I had a similar chat with a work colleague over the weekend. My question which I repeated over and over - what exactly will Police knowing what the serial number is, achieve ?

It won't stop burglary.
It won't stop idiots who don't secure their firearms.
It won't stop those who are already in illegal possession of a firearm.
It will create a massive workload on an under-resourced department.

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## chindit

Yes I knew the serial number thing would get the hackles up. But if the weapon is recovered the serial number if still there  links that gun to that theft and back to you. If your car gets nicked you don't say it was a red Ferrari with 2 big fluffy dice hanging from the mirror. I never said data base, I said do you know your numbers so they can be passed onto police if you loose a rifle.

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## kotuku

why exactly do police need more rules when it seems they are struggling to do the job under existing rules.The endless stream of individual AO rulings on here suggests to me that in fact POLICE HQ  has not come to terms with existing regulations and issued a specific policy for ALL to utilise.
Hows about the judiciary and the polis get tougher on crims-me i'd give em a compulsory 5yrs extra for every firearm found illegally-no questions no discussions ,no bloody time off for contrition.that sentence to be served on a prison farm in the wapwaps of the waioru army training ground-discomfort gives a crim time to reflect.
BTW-I am not criticising individual police-more the bloody base wallahs and shinyarsed biro pushers at police national HQ who are highly paid to write SOPs/policys

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## gadgetman

I think both could do better. It needs to come from the top though and be consistent. When gear goes missing the police don't generally bother, other than sending you a form letter to say they acknowledge your gear got pilfered. They are not helped by the wet ticket brigade and limited funding either.

I do know of one traffic copper that had his wagon stolen and was not impressed by the lack of effort of his colleagues. In the end he did some sniffing around himself and ended up busting a theft, breakdown and export ring. Ended up with his wagon back to boot.

To be honest I think the Police HQ need to have a better look in their own backyard to find solutions rather than making it more difficult for the law abiding. If they made more of an effort to stop people becoming career criminals by more effective measures earlier in their careers things would improve.

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## 223nut

A change to the way firearms are stored makes sense, a chain round the however cylinder is stupid, everyone should at least have a safe, doesn't take much to have bolts in a small toolbox screwed to the floor in a different room.  As others have said serial number tracking starts down a slippery slope...

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## Kscott

> Yes I knew the serial number thing would get the hackles up. But if the weapon is recovered the serial number if still there  links that gun to that theft and back to you. If your car gets nicked you don't say it was a red Ferrari with 2 big fluffy dice hanging from the mirror. I never said data base, I said do you know your numbers so they can be passed onto police if you loose a rifle.


Not so much getting hackles up :-) but it's a genuine question.

I'm an endorsed license holder, so my gear is already registered with the Police. On a database too. But if the guns turn up as a result of a burglary, the Police would already know they were stolen, because I told them ? I'm just perplexed at how Police knowing every single firearms serial number will actually help, when there is already a (claimed) large number of illegally held firearms. 

Lax security of gun owners - "don't give a shit I'll do what I like and keep the gun under the bed" or bare minimum security because they don't want to spend the money, and a very low clearance rate of solving burglary, are the 2 biggest problems that face us at the moment. Followed by a judiciary who seem to view firearms offences on the lower end of the scale. And rounded off with opportunist politicians who love to grandstand and get their name in the news for another 24 hours.

As already mentioned, the current Police/AO situation is woefully under resourced, so adding more work and duties to them without a significant budget/people increase won't fix this magical problem of firearms being in the hands of those who legally shouldn't have them.

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## kidmac42

This sounds like another 'heather' conversation.

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## GravelBen

> I'm just perplexed at how Police knowing every single firearms serial number will actually help, when there is already a (claimed) large number of illegally held firearms.


He never said anything about police knowing all serial numbers did he? Just that its not a bad idea for firearms owners to record the serial numbers they own.

Which I agree with tbh - if your firearms are stolen then a record of the serial numbers could be a rather useful piece of evidence for prosecuting the thieves if they are found in possession. Not so easy to prove the firearms they have are the same ones stolen from you without that information.

Yes they could be filed off or whatever, but using that as a reason not to record them is like arguing that you don't need good security because a serious enough thief will still get through.

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## Beavis

I have photos and records of all the guns I own, more for insurance. I'll give them to police if they're stolen, but I've got no faith in them being found.

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## gadgetman

> I have photos and records of all the guns I own, more for insurance. I'll give them to police if they're stolen, but I've got no faith in them being found.


Same here.

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## Kscott

> He never said anything about police knowing all serial numbers did he? Just that its not a bad idea for firearms owners to record the serial numbers they own.


Very true.

I do feel though that those who do keep a copy of serial numbers, and ensure they have adequate security, are the minority of firearms license holders.

I'm with @Beavis, I've got little faith that any of my gear that would be stolen could actually be returned to me. Which is a shame, living in quiet, little ol' NZ.

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## stumpy

I have always wondered what the problem with the serial number of any weapon/firearm being logged against a person is .. 
if your the owner , when you buy a firearm , why cant it go ,against your FL ?
are people worried about the info leaking into the wrong hands? 
or being charged per firearm you own in some sort of registration scheme , like some on here all my firearms are of the endorsed type , I don't own any "A" cat firearms ... don't get pissy and come back in a rant , I am genuinely interested in the why not . 
I realise now that to get all of NZ to come up with the number on all their guns and get checked etc would fail ... but it has to start somewhere ... maybe from jan 2017 all weapons bought , new and used must be registred , and I think that a cop at a scrotes house who finds a stolen firearm , if he has a serial number and a previous owner who was burgled then they could tie that crim into that crime , the more he/she is charged with the more they go away for (hopefully ) I personally cant see the harm in it ... but im sure others will . 
cheers blair

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## Daggers_187

> I have always wondered what the problem with the serial number of any weapon/firearm being logged against a person is .. 
> if your the owner , when you buy a firearm , why cant it go ,against your FL ?
> are people worried about the info leaking into the wrong hands? 
> or being charged per firearm you own in some sort of registration scheme , like some on here all my firearms are of the endorsed type , I don't own any "A" cat firearms ... don't get pissy and come back in a rant , I am genuinely interested in the why not . 
> I realise now that to get all of NZ to come up with the number on all their guns and get checked etc would fail ... but it has to start somewhere ... maybe from jan 2017 all weapons bought , new and used must be registred , and I think that a cop at a scrotes house who finds a stolen firearm , if he has a serial number and a previous owner who was burgled then they could tie that crim into that crime , the more he/she is charged with the more they go away for (hopefully ) I personally cant see the harm in it ... but im sure others will . 
> cheers blair


Stumpy, 

People are concerned that registration of all firearms provides a "shopping list" for police in the event that they implement a buyback policy. This is how the buyback worked in Australia. One year they asked for registration, then all law abiding owners complied, and the next year they changed the law and had the buy back. Conveniently, due to registration, they could track down the firearms they wanted.

The other argument that people tote, is that registration, historically, has provided little benefit in terms of solving crimes. As with the Canadian registry, the main reason it was abandoned is that it had minimal statistical impact on the number of crimes solved. Although this is sometime held in contention.

EDIT: These are the two cases that I am familiar with, there are other examples of firearms registration schemes worldwide which work in different ways and may/may not provide benefits in terms of solving crimes. In summary, there are three reasons firearms owners in New Zealand seem opposed to general registration. 
1) Possibility of a buyback - firearms owners view registration as a precursor to this. 
2) Administrative and financial burden on police services
3) Data security concerns

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## WallyR

Historically (mid-60's), I got my 'first' FAL.
Wanted to get a cutdown milsurp 303, had to get a 'Permit to Procure', pay and collect rifle.
Take said purchase, PTP and FAL to local station for registration within 72 hours (I think).
At the station, the sergeant recorded all the above information and checked that I actually knew how to strip and reassemble the rifle.
A few questions to make sure I had an understanding of safe firearms use (some of the 7 principles were hammered very hard back then).
'Off you go son - if you get something, you know where the 'cop shop' is' - nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more.
After a shot of 'common sense' in the Beehive, the single page license disappeared and the 'little red book' came into existence.
Go to private seller/retailer, show your red book, record the details in the back (in front of the seller), he'd record your red book number in his red book and cross that rifle off his list of firearms (in the back of his red book).
While very 'manual', the system worked really well and all was roses.
We decided that the future held more promise in Aus., so sold all the rifles, using the above system (still have my little red book - changed I used to think because of the link to a certain Asian country's leader and his political leanings).
On our return recently - lo and behold - despite working for 15 years, IRD couldn't find my tax file number - so had to get a new one.
Drivers license - same result.
Applied for a new FAL - records kept and cost increased by $100 over a 'new application', as the old FAL was lapsed and only needed the MSC course to get it back - new number of course.
So records are useful, when applied 'intelligently'.

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## gadgetman

> 3) Data security concerns


This one for me. Particularly when not long ago one of their members was working with gangs.

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## sako75

> I had a similar chat with a work colleague over the weekend. My question which I repeated over and over - what exactly will Police knowing what the serial number is, achieve ?
> 
> It won't stop burglary.
> It won't stop idiots who don't secure their firearms.
> It won't stop those who are already in illegal possession of a firearm.
> It will create a massive workload on an under-resourced department.


Was that Heather?

I have no issues with numbers been logged as I have nothing to hide however it is only the “good guys” who would submit their numbers.
Rural firearms are a way of life. They won’t go into Fort Knox everytime there is a rabbit, possum or Magpie out the back door then put it back after
The drug growers, cooks and dealers have illegal firearms for their own protection against their own kind.
For a system to work it has to start sometime

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## lumberjack

Yes we could be doing more especially in the area of storage. Most people I know have just put a lock on a cupboard door and called that good where really you could put your foot though most of them. Changes need to come from the top and be clear cut and uniform across the whole country without impeding on the rights we have currently, possibly even doing away with some of the more useless laws. Basically streamlining the arms act and making it easier for everyone to understand while tightening up on the issue of criminals getting guns. Pretty much what all the other guys have said.

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## Kscott

> Was that Heather?


??? no, the lady in question, her name is Kimberly.

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## gonetropo

ive got photos of all mine, on the back of them is info on them inc serial number. no way would i ever trust a govt department with this info, they employ too many civilians who could give this info to criminals.

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## res

I have good security-the worst of it has passed endorsed standards and keep very good records with photos of the guns and the serial numbers (including all the places those numbers are marked) alarms cameras and soon dye sprayers. But I'll leave the bolts in thanks-taking them out is only practical on some guns(bit of a pain for semis) and opens up way to much chance of loss or mix up. 

I think the current minimum for "A" category is a joke  and that the cops struggle to keep track of the endorsed guns so have no faith in their ability to track all of them-and would point to Canada to show that even if they had more funding they probably still couldn't do it in a way that would help dove crime any more than private people keeping there own details to pass on in case of theft. 

It has been mentions in the past that extra controls on ammo wouldn't really help as crims don't use much of it.

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## 199p

I personally don't have an issue with police having a registration. I have an endorsed firearm as well as filling out mail order forms the police all ready know 3/4 of my safe.
how ever i think the budget for firearm registration is much better spent on front line police staff. 

If they could solve more burglaries than I have no doubt it would have a big effect on black market firearms especially if there was larger penalties just look at that kid who stabbed the rugby player he had something like 15 burglary chargers and he was only 17.

I do agree that firearms should be stored at least in a safe and personally I would like to see it to the current E cat level.

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## 223nut

> I personally don't have an issue with police having a registration. I have an endorsed firearm as well as filling out mail order forms the police all ready know 3/4 of my safe.
> how ever i think the budget for firearm registration is much better spent on front line police staff. 
> 
> If they could solve more burglaries than I have no doubt it would have a big effect on black market firearms especially if there was larger penalties just look at that kid who stabbed the rugby player he had something like 15 burglary chargers and he was only 17.
> 
> I do agree that firearms should be stored at least in a safe and personally I would like to see it to the current E cat level.


I agree with all of this except making everyone have an e cat. For Those that are renting or move a lot it would be a pain in The arse.

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## Dougie

I had the bare minimum security when I first got my FAL (a lock on a cupboard, didn't have a rifle there as my flat mates refuted it). 

When I got my first rifle, I had a gun rack. Easy to take with me when moving flats but still didn't let me sleep well at night. 

Saved up and got a safe. Seriously don't understand why anyone who owned a home wouldn't get one. I think the minimum security is a joke and I was very uncomfortable storing firearms that way. 

I'd like to see a much more secure minimum standard brought in, but understand the challenges of administration of enforcement. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Maca49

Let's go back to what was suggested, I think, in the 70s by the polies and put them all in armouries and you can book em out and put em back when you have finished. That's the real control they would like! :O O:

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## 199p

> I agree with all of this except making everyone have an e cat. For Those that are renting or move a lot it would be a pain in The arse.


That is a valid point. I do think the bar has to be raised with a lot of the converted locker safes that i personally know of 3 or 4 people using them.

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## Taff

I assume you all know that there is a register of all firearms sold from a dealer, new or S/H so I cannot understand what you are all complaining about, ok private sales are not recorded, but that maybe on the way, mainly due to gun owners selling or lending guns to people without licenses. It will take years for the records to catch up if ever.
As to recording your serial number for your own use, common sense really if you ever want to make a claim on your insurance.

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## Maca49

So I bought a rifle from a gun shop yesterday, everything recorded, sold it today at a profit to a bonifide person, I do not keep records, what's the point?

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## mikee

> I have always wondered what the problem with the serial number of any weapon/firearm being logged against a person is .. 
> if your the owner , when you buy a firearm , why cant it go ,against your FL ?
> are people worried about the info leaking into the wrong hands? 
> or being charged per firearm you own in some sort of registration scheme , like some on here all my firearms are of the endorsed type , I don't own any "A" cat firearms ... don't get pissy and come back in a rant , I am genuinely interested in the why not . 
> I realise now that to get all of NZ to come up with the number on all their guns and get checked etc would fail ... but it has to start somewhere ... maybe from jan 2017 all weapons bought , new and used must be registred , and I think that a cop at a scrotes house who finds a stolen firearm , if he has a serial number and a previous owner who was burgled then they could tie that crim into that crime , the more he/she is charged with the more they go away for (hopefully ) I personally cant see the harm in it ... but im sure others will . 
> cheers blair


From my own personal  experience, all my B endorsed pistols were "registered" and they could not get that right, ie serial numbers not recorded correctly, not transfered on to or off my licence how can they do better if you add all known licence holders to the system ???

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## Tommy

> I agree with all of this except making everyone have an e cat. For Those that are renting or move a lot it would be a pain in The arse.


I'm sorry, I have to disagree. I rent and have an endorsement, if you want to own these firearms, you need to be able to keep them secure. I believe this to be the case with all firearms too. 

I think NZ's sentencing laws are a real factor here. These dickheads getting busted in a crack lab with a stolen sawnoff or revolver get concurrent sentences, which is a joke. Commit 5 or 10 offences in a spree : rob liquor store, with a shotgun, punch the poor shopkeeper, flee in stolen car, fail to stop, while possessing class A drugs, with no license, on bail = should equal serving 8 or more sentences end on end for all 8 or more offenses committed. The more the merrier, they don't give a shit if they get caught, the wet bus ticket comes out for the most serious offense they've been nabbed for, it doesn't affect them very much if they get caught for a whole raft load or just the most serious on its own. There is next to ZERO deterrent factor in NZ sentencing laws, and it's bullshit. We even have instances of judges refusing to apply strikes (3 strikes laws) to these cretins when it's THE FUCKING LAW. I say to the NZ government, start there and leave little old law-abiding me the fuck alone until you sort them out.

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## GravelBen

> I think the minimum security is a joke and I was very uncomfortable storing firearms that way.


I talked to an AO about that once who said that its mostly about being fit for purpose - the minimum standard is not intended for long-term permanent storage, its more for the sort of person who occasionally has a borrowed firearm to lock up for a night, or at a bach so you can lock up your rifle when you're there on holiday. Seemed fair enough to me.

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## Savage1

> I had a similar chat with a work colleague over the weekend. My question which I repeated over and over - what exactly will Police knowing what the serial number is, achieve ?
> 
> It won't stop burglary. Actually by helping to identify stolen firearms and link them back to a specific occurence offenders will be able to be linked and often prosecuted, helping prevent futhur offending.
> It won't stop idiots who don't secure their firearms. Nope, but just because it doesn't fix all problems doesn't make it a wasted effort.
> It won't stop those who are already in illegal possession of a firearm. Nope, but it might help prosecute them in the future.
> It will create a massive workload on an under-resourced department. Nope, it won't make any difference.


Bottom line, if all people actually recorded thier own serial numbers and passed them to Police when their firearms were stolen then a lot more firearms would be returned to their owners rather than destroyed and criminals linked to specific offences, and prosecuted. Just like VINs and number plates on stolen cars. Sure an angle grinder can remove the numbers, however most won't bother, just like they don't bother removing VIN numbers.

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## Taff

> So I bought a rifle from a gun shop yesterday, everything recorded, sold it today at a profit to a bonifide person, I do not keep records, what's the point?


The fact is at this point there is no point, and if you logically think about it that unless everyone is willing to inform the police of the firearms you own, then there will be no point. Criminals will always obtain guns, either by thefts or illegal imports, but two wrongs don,t make a right.
As gun owners we need to set the agenda, not try closing the door after the horse has bolted.
If we offered some of the following perhaps we could offset further restrictions
1. Better security, safes as a minimum standard
2. Inform police who you sell a firearm to, the rubbish spoken about data base security is irrelevant, everyone on this site is easily traceable as is anyone who visits a hunting via there number plate.
OK some people may say give them an inch and they will take a mile, but if they really want that mile they will take it anyway, as any Aussie .

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## Maca49

Taff the law was changed, I think the current system is fine,maybe small tweaks but not wholesale changes. Security is something  change in society has brought us to. But as said here, concentrate on the law breakers, give the some consequences to face. I'd vote for the return of the death sentence today for drugs, no tolerance at all, and extremely tough sentences for firearm offences.

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## systolic

Whenever someone complains about security requirements, I think about that guy in North Auckland who had all those Accuracy International rifles taken from a piss arse gun rack during a burglary.

One was worth about $11000 or so. In a wall rack. Met the minimum requirements, but that's cold comfort when the guns are all gone.

The guns in the safe weren't touched.

Security requirements for all guns should be increased.

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## Beavis

> Whenever someone complains about security requirements, I think about that guy in North Auckland who had all those Accuracy International rifles taken from a piss arse gun rack during a burglary.
> 
> One was worth about $11000 or so. In a wall rack. Met the minimum requirements, but that's cold comfort when the guns are all gone.
> 
> The guns in the safe weren't touched.
> 
> Security requirements for all guns should be increased.


What do you propose the security requirements are for all guns?

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## res

> What do you propose the security requirements are for all guns?


And that's the crux of the issue right there, how do you draw the line?

Metal box?

What number of locking pins?

How thick?

Would be nice to have actual data on what sort of security most guns are stolen from but I doubt anyone has collected it in detail

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## 223nut

A safe screwed to the floor. Need tools / 10+mins  to remove it. Something made from thick enough steel that you can't kick it open

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## norsk

> Taff the law was changed, I think the current system is fine,maybe small tweaks but not wholesale changes. Security is something  change in society has brought us to. But as said here, concentrate on the law breakers, give the some consequences to face. I'd vote for the return of the death sentence today for drugs, no tolerance at all, and extremely tough sentences for firearm offences.


I would legalise every Drug.Drug "control" just puts money in big Governments pockets.We have already established that if criminals want guns then they can get them,thats the same reason that a little Country at the bottom of the world has a drug problem.Supply and demand.

I think tighter security in conjunction with harder penalties for improper storage,harder penalties still for illegal firearms possession.

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## norsk

> And that's the crux of the issue right there, how do you draw the line?
> 
> Metal box?
> 
> What number of locking pins?
> 
> How thick?
> 
> Would be nice to have actual data on what sort of security most guns are stolen from but I doubt anyone has collected it in detail


If the Government subsidized the purchase of the gun box,then they would really be doing something about the problem.Over here you can't get your licence untill you submit  a copy of the receipt of purchase of a approved gun safe.If you already have one in your house or your missus has one,you must document that fact and agree to the possibility of the Cops turning up to check it unannounced.

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## Taff

There is a standard already in the UK it's not difficult for them to copy it, safes are not expensive , the cost of a middle priced scope. Punishment for gun crimes and drugs / theft needs to be stronger, but that's not going to happen , if anything it's getting lighter.

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## Daggers_187

> I'd vote for the return of the death sentence today for drugs, no tolerance at all.


You'd be on your own with that one mate.




> A safe screwed to the floor. Need tools / 10+mins  to remove it. Something made from thick enough steel that you can't kick it open


The problem is you need to write a specification which isn't open to interpretation and quite clearly defines the performance expected. 




> There is a standard already in the UK it's not difficult for them to copy it, safes are not expensive , the cost of a middle priced scope. Punishment for gun crimes and drugs / theft needs to be stronger, but that's not going to happen , if anything it's getting lighter.


Sorry, but the UK can keep it's laws in the UK thanks.

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## Ryan

> I'd vote for the return of the death sentence today for drugs


And eliminate most of the alcohol consuming, tax paying populace? No thanks.

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## Beavis

I'd legalize all drugs to destroy the organised crime economy then address the issues that force people into poverty and crime. But hey lets just make gun owners get better safes cuz we're too fuckin lazy to do the above

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## Maca49

> And eliminate most of the alcohol consuming, tax paying populace? No thanks.


Dont be silly, Alcohol is not a drug! I can drink a little and not be off my head, P tends to send me spinning, Dope numbs my brain makes me sleepy gives bad breathe and makes me paranoid!! :ORLY:  Havent tried anything else

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## Maca49

> I'd legalize all drugs to destroy the organised crime economy then address the issues that force people into poverty and crime. But hey lets just make gun owners get better safes cuz we're too fuckin lazy to do the above


We need to become more addicted to our sport :Wink:

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## res

> Dont be silly, Alcohol is not a drug!


Sure it is, probably the one that does the most harm in NZ

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## 223nut

> Sure it is, probably the one that does the most harm in NZ


+1

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## GravelBen

> Sure it is, probably the one that does the most harm in NZ


Probably right, but only because the usage is so high. If other drugs that are claimed to do less harm were used as commonly (and excessively) as alcohol I think you'd probably see a much higher level of harm from them.

Bit off topic now mind you... how about I recommend people don't build or install gun safes while affected by alcohol or other drugs?

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## gadgetman

> The problem is you need to write a specification which isn't open to interpretation and quite clearly defines the performance expected.


The difficulty with this would be one off custom safes/strongrooms. To properly test performance they would be destroyed. I think the rules as they are with an engineers report is actually quite good.

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## res

> Probably right, but only because the usage is so high. If other drugs that are claimed to do less harm were used as commonly (and excessively) as alcohol I think you'd probably see a much higher level of harm from them.
> 
> Bit off topic now mind you... how about I recommend people don't build or install gun safes while affected by alcohol or other drugs?


Inclined to agree with every part of that. 

I just get pissed off when people try and claim there drug of choice is not a drug-even if half tongue in cheek like macka's.

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## Taff

> Sorry, but the UK can keep it's laws in the UK thanks.


You seem to have chip on your shoulder about things in the UK, which you seem to know little about, I did not mention laws, but a BS standard for gun safes, ( NZ uses BS standards in many situations) amazingly it is less than e cat

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## Tommy

> You seem to have chip on your shoulder about things in the UK, which you seem to know little about, I did not mention laws, but a BS standard for gun safes, ( NZ uses BS standards in many situations) amazingly it is less than e cat


The UK has some pretty shit gun laws we could do without.

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## Taff

Where have I mentioned gun laws, I know the standard of education is low in most country's but I assumed most people on here could read. Perhaps we need a BS standard for education.

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## systolic

> What do you propose the security requirements are for all guns?


Proper steel safes that take more than a large screwdriver to open. Securely fastened to the building walls and floor. 

Wooden cabinets or wardrobes could be acceptable as long as they were lined with something strong to prevent a robber simply kicking through the gib.

No crappy wooden cupboards, lockers that can be opened with a can opener, wall  racks or chains through the triggerguards.

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## Daggers_187

> You seem to have chip on your shoulder about things in the UK, which you seem to know little about, I did not mention laws, but a BS standard for gun safes, ( NZ uses BS standards in many situations) amazingly it is less than e cat


Yeah mate. I have a problem with people suggesting that any part of UK firearms legislation is an improvement on our laws and policing. 

Here's a guide I found on storage of firearms in the UK. 
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ty_leaflet.pdf

Published in 2005, so maybe abit out of date. 

From what I can see, it makes no mention to actual standards, only recommendations, and does not seem to be any different from New Zealand's "recommendations". 




> It is recommended that a cabinet should have the
> following featur
> es:
> • It should be made from sheet steel at least 14 swg
> (standard wire gauge) (2 mm) thick. All seams
> should be continuously welded, or the cabinet
> body formed by bend construction.


Yeah mate 2mm....that's about what most gun "safes" here are. 




> Lock mechanisms should be on the inside of the
> cabinet. The lock should contain at least 5 levers
> to BS 3621 standard or equivalent. Alternatively,
> good quality hardened padlocks and staples
> should be fitted to the cabinet.


Lots of the word "should" in there. Which says to me it's not actually a specification. Just a recommendation, much like how the arms code is just a guide, but not the actual law. 

The most glaring difference between New Zealand security requirements is that they recommend "gun clamps" or wall racks as we would probably call them. A method of storage which is only considered moderately acceptable here. 




> Gun clamps
> For one firearm, an alternative option to a cabinet
> may be a gun clamp. It should:
> • be made out of steel that is at least 14 swg
> (2mm) thick;
> • have seam-welded joints, or be formed by bend
> construction; and
> • have a lock that meets BS 3621 standard or
> equivalent. Alternatively a good quality hardened
> padlock should be fitted.


Lots of use of the word should. Good stuff. 

Finally, it says that steel cables are also a recommended way. 




> Steel cables
> In certain circumstances a high tensile steel cable
> secured with a hardened padlock may be an
> appropriate security method.


In summary - the UK appears to have the same ambiguity of storage and security standards as New Zealand. And appears not to be a suitable model for us to base our security requirements on. 

The end.

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## Taff

BS 7558 and BS3621, is the standard the rest is drivel, you also missed out the bits regarding cables/ bars etc which states you have to have a monitored alarm system and other high security options on doors and windows. Of course we could always encourage the NZ government to spend $000,000 on drawing up a standard as you suggest, as I wrote I never said follow UK legislation on firearms, just set a standard for gun safes, without spending my dollars to reinvent the wheel.
I agree that most safes are of the same quality here, but at the moment, as we are seeing with Ecat safes they are not approved, and people are having problems with getting them signed off, at present we are not selling E cat safes due to this problem

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## Daggers_187

> BS 7558 and BS3621, is the standard the rest is drivel


Compliance with those British standards is not legally mandated in British law. It's only recommended that you comply with them. But the firearms officer ("vetting officer" as we call them here) may, at their discretion, accept anything. If they were mandated by law, then there would be sections in legislation stating that gunsafes "shall comply with [insert standards here]."

Standard BS 7558 relates to testing methods and "withstanding attack." And not to the construction or installation of gunsafes. By mandating that "all gunsafes must comply with BS 7558", you would require independent testing, to destruction, of every gunsafe you wished to use and every installation method.

Standard BS 3621 relates to security standards of locks.

The reality is that British firearms storage law is no different to New Zealand firearms storage law.

NOTE: New Zealand already has an equivalent to BS 7558. AS/NZS 3809: 1998.




> you also missed out the bits regarding cables/ bars etc which states you have to have a monitored alarm system and other high security options on doors and windows.


Please cite the legislation which states that you "shall" or "must" have a monitored alarm system.

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## gonetropo

> I'd legalize all drugs to destroy the organised crime economy then address the issues that force people into poverty and crime. But hey lets just make gun owners get better safes cuz we're too fuckin lazy to do the above


problem solved: make all drugs legal but only obtainable from vodaphones help desk, after an hour or 2 on hold you will just give up

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## Jexla

Honestly, if you don't have the serial numbers written down it's not a big issue.
Even if the police do find your gun 6 months later, it's unlikely to be in the state it was before if it's even in a legal state at all.
By then you would have been paid out by your insurance company and the police will just go ahead and destroy it, where's the real harm to the community?
There is none, only thing you could argue is that there's parts on there you or someone else could still use.

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## GravelBen

> Honestly, if you don't have the serial numbers written down it's not a big issue.
> Even if the police do find your gun 6 months later, it's unlikely to be in the state it was before if it's even in a legal state at all.
> By then you would have been paid out by your insurance company and the police will just go ahead and destroy it, where's the real harm to the community?
> There is none, only thing you could argue is that there's parts on there you or someone else could still use.


But it can provide solid evidence that the gun found is a stolen gun, not just one the same model as a stolen one. Which obviously helps the police with the whole resolving burglaries and prosecuting offenders thing we all say they haven't been doing very well (well most of us say that , maybe not  Savage1).

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## Savage1

> But it can provide solid evidence that the gun found is a stolen gun, not just one the same model as a stolen one. Which obviously helps the police with the whole resolving burglaries and prosecuting offenders thing we all say they haven't been doing very well (well most of us say that , maybe not  Savage1).


Nope I agree with you, we haven't been doing well at it. Burglaries are notoriously hard to solve because a few basic steps means they leave no evidence, and without evidence you're never going to solve it. Police just don't have the resources to really hammer burglaries sadly.

I highly recommend you record all of your serial numbers from laptops, TVs etc. If it can't be identified as stolen then it has to be given back to them even if it is obvious it would've been stolen, like a gangmembers property I raided recently that had 7 55+inch TVs and at least 50 powertools and 15 toolchests full of tools. Only a fraction of the tools were identified as stolen, he got to keep the rest.

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## res

[QUOTE=Savage1;504391If it can't be identified as stolen then it has to be given back to them even if it is obvious it would've been stolen[/QUOTE]

Thats an interesting point and one I had never considered

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## Pointer

On the legalize all drugs idea, I think we should remove licencing on guns. Those that want them have them already. Would violent firearms crime rise? Or do we not trust ourselves?

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## Jexla

> Nope I agree with you, we haven't been doing well at it. Burglaries are notoriously hard to solve because a few basic steps means they leave no evidence, and without evidence you're never going to solve it. Police just don't have the resources to really hammer burglaries sadly.
> 
> I highly recommend you record all of your serial numbers from laptops, TVs etc. If it can't be identified as stolen then it has to be given back to them even if it is obvious it would've been stolen, like a gangmembers property I raided recently that had 7 55+inch TVs and at least 50 powertools and 15 toolchests full of tools. Only a fraction of the tools were identified as stolen, he got to keep the rest.


That's really weird, I always see my local police posting pictures of what they believe are stolen items asking for the owners to come forward?
Or does that just mean they've taken the items and asked then have to give them back if they're not claimed?
If not, what's the difference?




> But it can provide solid evidence that the gun found is a stolen gun, not just one the same model as a stolen one. Which obviously helps the police with the whole resolving burglaries and prosecuting offenders thing we all say they haven't been doing very well (well most of us say that , maybe not Savage1).


If someone doesn't have a licence which I doubt they do if they're stealing guns they're going to be charged with that regardless, maybe if that actually meant they didn't get a smack on the hand it wouldn't matter if you gave your serial numbers to police or not.

EDIT: But I understand what you're both saying, so in a way it's helpful, but honestly makes fuck all difference after sentencing.

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## Beavis

Labour MP's reckon "the horse has bolted" for gun registration but can't see why new guns couldnt be micro chipped and kept in a database. 

I'm curious where you would put a micro chip in a gun?

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## Beavis

I'm looking at it like this. They want to know how criminals get guns -> they get told the majority or procured through theft -> few stolen guns are ever recovered-> lets register guns so we know where they are -> registered guns get stolen and not recovered -> where are criminals getting guns? -> on and on

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## WallyR

> Labour MP's reckon "the horse has bolted" for gun registration but can't see why new guns couldnt be micro chipped and kept in a database. 
> 
> I'm curious where you would put a micro chip in a gun?


Down the barrel of course!
Plenty of length to deposit said microchip.
Then the next deer you shot, wouldn't get lost - Labour would find it for you - at great cost - so they could put another one, where the last one was  :Grin:

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## gimp

> Labour MP's reckon "the horse has bolted" for gun registration but can't see why new guns couldnt be micro chipped and kept in a database. 
> 
> I'm curious where you would put a micro chip in a gun?


It's probably not completely unworkable, except that no manufacturers currently embed id microchips in their stocks/grips/whatever, and it's also completely devoid of purpose, and all guns already come with unique identifying marks that anyone can remove if they've got an angle grinder, so a more expensive and complicated version of the same thing doesn't actually seem to have a point

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## gimp

Personally, I haven't shot anyone lately, so I don't think I need to do more

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## Taff

> Compliance with those British standards is not legally mandated in British law. It's only recommended that you comply with them. But the firearms officer ("vetting officer" as we call them here) may, at their discretion, accept anything. If they were mandated by law, then there would be sections in legislation stating that gunsafes "shall comply with [insert standards here]."
> 
> Standard BS 7558 relates to testing methods and "withstanding attack." And not to the construction or installation of gunsafes. By mandating that "all gunsafes must comply with BS 7558", you would require independent testing, to destruction, of every gunsafe you wished to use and every installation method.
> 
> Standard BS 3621 relates to security standards of locks.
> 
> The reality is that British firearms storage law is no different to New Zealand firearms storage law.
> 
> NOTE: New Zealand already has an equivalent to BS 7558. AS/NZS 3809: 1998.
> ...


You are now showing your lack of understanding of the judicial system and how guidelines work within it, the way the judicial system works is, that you must follow the guidelines or we will prosecute you using the guidelines as proof of your failure to show due diligence, this applies to H&S regulations as well, the firearms officer ( a police employee will not deviate from the guidelines ) 
As to all safes would have to be destroyed, another misunderstanding of the BS system , how do you intend to test all the buildings in NZ built to withstand earthquakes , create earthquakes ? How about your car, have you crashed it to see if the crumple zone comply so with NZ transport requirements, no as they only test a model during production testing and then apply those standards required to all models made, not sure if your on a wind up but this is fun.
Off Tmo to drive into all the bridges I can find to see if they are up to crash standards as set out by NZ transport, any volunteers. 😆

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## Maca49

> It's probably not completely unworkable, except that no manufacturers currently embed id microchips in their stocks/grips/whatever, and it's also completely devoid of purpose, and all guns already come with unique identifying marks that anyone can remove if they've got an angle grinder, so a more expensive and complicated version of the same thing doesn't actually seem to have a point


Numbers stamped into steel go very deep and you can grind/file them off, but they can be read again, I think they can be etched up

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## gimp

I believe so, yes, which reinforces my point

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## Chilli_Dog

> Numbers stamped into steel go very deep and you can grind/file them off, but they can be read again, I think they can be etched up


A few seconds in the microwave will kill a microchip

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## 10-Ring

> A few seconds in the microwave will kill a microchip


Interesting what things you can learn here. Of course, getting a rifle or shotgun in a microwave may prove problematic.

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## Daggers_187

> You are now showing your lack of understanding of the judicial system and how guidelines work within it, the way the judicial system works is, that you must follow the guidelines or we will prosecute you using the guidelines as proof of your failure to show due diligence, this applies to H&S regulations as well, the firearms officer ( a police employee will not deviate from the guidelines ) 
> As to all safes would have to be destroyed, another misunderstanding of the BS system , how do you intend to test all the buildings in NZ built to withstand earthquakes , create earthquakes ? How about your car, have you crashed it to see if the crumple zone comply so with NZ transport requirements, no as they only test a model during production testing and then apply those standards required to all models made, not sure if your on a wind up but this is fun.
> Off Tmo to drive into all the bridges I can find to see if they are up to crash standards as set out by NZ transport, any volunteers. 😆


I write engineering performance specifications for a living. 

You haven't read either of the British standards. If you had, you'd know that 7558 calls for submission of samples to be tested to destruction.

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## Taff

Exactly what I said , Perhaps you could write one for gun safes, or just copy bs7558 ?

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## Daggers_187

> Exactly what I said ��, Perhaps you could write one for gun safes, or just copy bs7558 ?


As I already mentioned in my previous post. 




> NOTE: New Zealand already has an equivalent to BS 7558. AS/NZS 3809: 1998.

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## Ryan



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## Chilli_Dog

> Interesting what things you can learn here. Of course, getting a rifle or shotgun in a microwave may prove problematic.


There are ways around that little problem, and a useful side effect is the possibility of  a significant reduction in the ability of the person doing it to reproduce.......

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## Steve123

> There are ways around that little problem, and a useful side effect is the possibility of  a significant reduction in the ability of the person doing it to reproduce.......


Imagine if they started doing that micro chipping guns in the States. The heavily armed Jesus loving survivalists would have a melt down .

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## gimp

> Imagine if they started doing that micro chipping guns in the States. The heavily armed Jesus loving survivalists would have a melt down .


and quite reasonably, because the idea is fucking retarded

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## Taff

> As I already mentioned in my previous post.


Have you read it ?

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## Wirehunt

I see the usual lack going on.   You lot do realize why safes/lockups were initially bought in?  Nothing to do with security and everything to do with stopping kids playing with guns....

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## 223nut

> I see the usual lack going on.   You lot do realize why safes/lockups were initially bought in?  Nothing to do with security and everything to do with stopping kids playing with guns....


Don't have kids and never have them over, does that mean I can have them sitting in the open....? No and I don't mind having them in a safe, piece of mind when I'm not home and someone breaks in

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## Wirehunt

Oh there is big kids around too.

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## res

> I see the usual lack going on.   You lot do realize why safes/lockups were initially bought in?  Nothing to do with security and everything to do with stopping kids playing with guns....


And the laws have been spectacularly effective in this regard

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## gadgetman

> and quite reasonably, because the idea is fucking retarded


Sir, you are a poet. Couldn't agree more.

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## Mooseman

Monitored  alarm is a good piece of mind. I have seen a 3mm steel gun cabinet attacked with an axe and after repeated blows (stuffed the axe) the frame by the top of the door was dented in some but it did not open.  This safe only had two locking pins by the lock so even the cheaper safes seem to be able to take a pounding. I think most people who value there firearms will do the best they can to protect them.

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## Wirehunt

Have you lot not heard of battery grinders?   Have a hole in  a flash safe in minutes,  not many of them.  Of course if there is power handy a 9" will do a safe fucking fast.  Hot knife through butter.

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## res

Yea, a good safe is only going to stop a  theft who is not prepared.regardless of category its certified for.    But a unprepared theft should not be able to kick open a safe like some of the stuff that being used-a bike lock would actually be more secure than some of that.

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## Jexla

[QUOTE=Mooseman;505695]Monitored  alarm is a good piece of mind. I have seen a 3mm steel gun cabinet attacked with an axe and after repeated blows (stuffed the axe) the frame by the top of the door was dented in some but it did not open.  This safe only had two locking pins by the lock so even the cheaper safes seem to be able to take a pounding. 

Monitored alarms are useless unless the security company is instructed to call the police on activation and then the police actually turn up in a reasonable time.
What do you think a security guard is going to do if he catches someone taking your stuff if he even turns up in a reasonable amount of time. 
He's legally not allowed to lay a hand on him, nor are you if you caught him.
Protection of property laws only allow you or someone else to go as far as pulling the item off them.




> I think most people who value there firearms will do the best they can to protect them.


Agreed




> Have you lot not heard of battery grinders?   Have a hole in  a flash safe in minutes,  not many of them.  Of course if there is power handy a 9" will do a safe fucking fast.  Hot knife through butter.


If they're in your garage/house wtf do they need a battery grinder for? Ain't no lock on your power plugs is there?  :Psmiley:

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## gonetropo

> Monitored  alarm is a good piece of mind. I have seen a 3mm steel gun cabinet attacked with an axe and after repeated blows (stuffed the axe) the frame by the top of the door was dented in some but it did not open.  This safe only had two locking pins by the lock so even the cheaper safes seem to be able to take a pounding. I think most people who value there firearms will do the best they can to protect them.


i have installed alarm systems for a damn long time, monitoring is fine providing that the security response can get there asap. nothing beats good neighbors for keeping an eye out though and the best thing is too make allot!!!! of noise.

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## Beavis

I work in the telco industry and never seen an alarm company make a follow up with a customer whenever I've done something to set it off. Some customers are extremely aggrieved when they realise.

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## gonetropo

> I work in the telco industry and never seen an alarm company make a follow up with a customer whenever I've done something to set it off. Some customers are extremely aggrieved when they realise.


firstly i am not associated with any monitoring company
but here in shaky town the only monitoring company that ever asked me for a password every time i rang them top put an alarm in "test mode" was code 9. some of the others did occasionally and some never asked at all

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## Mooseman

Agree with Gonetropo, neighbours are good value for keeping an eye and ear out. I would hope that an activated alarm would send the p*#%ks running before they got into the safe but as stated there is not a lot more you can do to protect your firearms.

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## Sasquatch

> Have you lot not heard of battery grinders?   Have a hole in  a flash safe in minutes,  not many of them.  Of course if there is power handy a 9" will do a safe fucking fast.  Hot knife through butter.


Won't be getting in to my safe easily... 4 gauge steel welded around reinforced concrete with steel meshing imbedded through all concrete plains among a myriad of other security measures put in place.

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## 223nut

> Won't be getting in to my safe easily... 4 gauge steel welded around reinforced concrete with steel meshing imbedded through all concrete plains among a myriad of other security measures put in place.


Half a stick of power gel taped to one side?!

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## Wirehunt

9 inch grinder, cut wheel, three minutes tops.

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## Taff

Yes we all know that if your determined enough, you can break into anything, but we all still lock our cars and house doors.

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## res

I wonder if we all had safes like this https://trademe.co.nz/1147254693 if it would make any difference? 

Please note I'm not saying that I think we should

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## Rwt

> I wonder if we all had safes like this https://trademe.co.nz/1147254693 if it would make any difference? 
> 
> Please note I'm not saying that I think we should


I cant see anyone running off with a safe like that!

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## GravelBen

> I cant see anyone running off with a safe like that!


I guess if someone really wanted to get into it they would just hold a knife to your throat and ask you nicely to unlock it...

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## WallyR

Always let my neighbours know when/how long we're going to be away.
Living in a dead-end street, with 7 houses on it - pretty good security.
Plus we all have contact numbers for each other's cellphones, so any 'suspicious activity', is checked out immediately.
At least 3-4 of us are always home, so - for me - best, cheapest security of all.
Have only phoned a neighbour once - turned out it was his son borrowing his trailer - which he'd forgotten to let us all know about.
Most theft is opportunistic, so if it looks 'too hard', they'll leave if be.
Have only had one suspicious looking vehicle in the street, when I walked out of the back shed and took a photo, it disappeared very quickly (smoking tyres to boot).
Never had any similar incidents since - word gets around the 'break in' crews.

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## Spudattack

> I guess if someone really wanted to get into it they would just hold a knife to your throat and ask you nicely to unlock it...


The African way! Don't break into shit, make the owners open it for you!

Sent from my SM-G360G using Tapatalk

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