# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  Wind ,  mirage the last Frontier

## el borracho

The subject of Wind and Mirage are not covered on this forum with any great note so a thread to do so would be helpful to "all" members .
I am going to post info from around the web that I have found that is interesting and certainly may help everyone become better with their wind calls and understanding of what the hell is happening out front before you take your shot 

I dont profess to be any whizz in this area but like many hold my own and take every bad shot as a lesson in  judgement or the lack there of and every day there is wind and mirage as a great day where I will learn  .

As not all on the forum are at the same level we should start from the bottom and work up with a goal of having online videos of the visible conditions one can see and understand once they are described to us .

The main focus points we could  talk about are ; 
1/accessing wind strength and direction 

2/Characteristics on foliage that give away signs of wind speed 

3/Mirage and what to look for when accessing its direction and strength

4/Wind in Valleys ,hills , passes and the affects terrain has on the wind direction and strength in general and what to look for when accessing those obsticles 

5/Multiple directions of wind and how to manage this shot

6/wind measurment devices 

7/How to counter a missed shot 

8/Spotting a moving bullet


I am sure as a collective we can post many examples from our experiences ,other sites , and even from youtube which has some great stuff on it .If I have left any areas out on this please do add to the list of wind related variables.
As I am not flash at adding images and stuff I may do multiple post with different stuff in PDF format

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## crzyman

"Nearly" All that is in Norways LR CD which we have been giving out free since 2006

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## el borracho

So you suggest Crazyman we stop this post right now ?Seriously Crazyman has everyone got this CD or is this site limited to 5-6 people who know it all and dont need any other input ?WTF

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## el borracho

Here are some good youtube links to some good visual aids about our subject matter for those who "want to learn" 

Ultimate Sniper Instructional - range estimation wind 2 - YouTube

Ultimate Sniper Instructional - range estimation wind - YouTube

Shooting Tip - Reading Mirage - YouTube

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## DAF

The cd mentioned is a great resource full of useful information in an easy to understand format.
I think the thread is a good idea, as I find there is always something worth learning

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## el borracho

Yes DAF this type of post once done should be a sticky for all shooting forums as it is probably the most interesing and most difficult area to master in LR shooting.Regards names El Borracho is my name here Senior

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## crzyman

> So you suggest Crazyman we stop this post right now ?Seriously Crazyman has everyone got this CD or is this site limited to 5-6 people who know it all and dont need any other input ?WTF


Hi Brian,

Did I say it should be stopped?

I said all the info you have asked for is on the CD, its not new and yes, there are hundreds of copys around NZ that people have asked for, from this site and F&H.

All CDs have been given out FREE since the orignal LR course and I still get requests even now.  I sent a copy out a month ago along with other useful LR shooting info on another CD.

Your additude will limit the amount of people that are willing to free up info for any thread you start, imho.

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## el borracho

Crazyman -if you dont like the thread I have started please refrain from posting -your statement right from the start was negative and said to me "weve already got it all so dont bother "  I hit the nail bang on the head with what I said to you !This forum will grow and this info that I will post as will others will help others grow -unless you got a boys club and dont want others here other than your mates pull your head in and enjoy what is posted , maybe even contribute -by the way my name is El Borracho   :36 1 11:

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## el borracho

Here is a PDF from the fire service in the USA is well worth a look at -also added some basic diagrames for wind

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## crzyman

Hi Brian, nice mountain bike you have on trademe.

Anyway, this is an open forum, I stated a fact and can back it up with a CD for you if you like.  I'm not going to copy and paste it here as its about 170 pages long.

Anybody can google sites in the states and look at youtube but if this thread was to gain anything it should be of facts and members own input.

Lets start it off with a data base of real NZ info, facts, weather and stuff that is ralevent to NZ, not what you can google.

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## el borracho

Once again -negative negative negative -shooting info works the same all over the world and to teach and show others how it works one is best to use known resources at hand -your view and my views on teaching are obviously vastly different -my offering will be from where ever I can take it as it "does not matter to me where I get it from" only that we can all use it and it is practicle and it works.If you want to use resources in NZ good luck to you but It will be a slow boat to china I imagine .
haha your are a care taker so must be able to see who I am and as I said to Daff my name is El Borracho

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## nzteza

whats the cd can i get a copie keen to have a look cheers terry

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## crzyman

Not negative about the sport or helping people, just people with big ego's that .

We have been collecting LR shooting data including wind read etc for 6+ years, its here in NZ already so no need to row the boat to china. :Have A Nice Day: 

As I said in my PM, happy enough to send you a copy

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## 7mmsaum

Easy to make a copy, I can make copies if anyone wants them, just send a PM with name and address.

Its a great CD, and just like Greendogs Curry, it will teach you a lot about the negative effects of wind.

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## el borracho

Guys its a great resource having a CD for sure and I myself will take one as Crazyman has kindly offered to send one .

Now as far as this post about wind and mirage go "BE INCLUDED IN IT AND OFFER ADVICE OR LEAVE IT ALONE" I am going to post stuff and I hope others do also so that any that are new shooters or old shooters that want to learn more can and that is starting from the basics .

At club meets sometimes I see hunters turn up that havent a clue but are to proud to say "I couldnt shoot my foot if I tried " -no problem lets inform you of the basics and get you on track .I have shot for a while and seriously wind and mirage kick my arse often !!! 

The things in this post be it from you or I or from the net are of value and if they are of value lets use them .

There are areas I do not know about and some in the south Island that shoot high hill tops into low gullies may help me with advice  .
Crazyman be it know this is not about ego -I can go to the mirror for that  :Thumbsup:

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## 7mmsaum

Thats great el borracho,  school me now....

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## Josh

Interesting read mate. Good way to fill a few minutes at work when the boss is in a meeting  :Thumbsup: 

Re. the CD, I've heard some very good things about it, but haven't yet got a copy, and this info is right here in front of me. It's a lot easier to discuss things if they're posted on here as well.

If people start posting wacky shit I'm sure someone can pull the CD out and copy some stuff in here  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Josh

> Can't copy it in here. That's the rule and the agreement people make when they receive the CD. Nothing gets put online. Hand to hand only.


Ah ok, that seems fair - Norway must have put a huge amount of time into it.

This thread is definitely helpful then, for me anyway  :Thumbsup:

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## el borracho

> Interesting read mate. Good way to fill a few minutes at work when the boss is in a meeting 
> 
> Re. the CD, I've heard some very good things about it, but haven't yet got a copy, and this info is right here in front of me. It's a lot easier to discuss things if they're posted on here as well.
> 
> If people start posting wacky shit I'm sure someone can pull the CD out and copy some stuff in here


Josh , there is some great reading in a few docos posted especially from the US FIRE SERVICE .

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## el borracho

> Thats great el borracho,  school me now....


Your Crayons and colouring book are in the post

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## el borracho

> Can't copy it in here. That's the rule and the agreement people make when they receive the CD. Nothing gets put online. Hand to hand only.


Tussock , your were wrong about 5-6 posts lol -hard crowd as they already know it all and certainly dont want to use your guys forum for a knowledge base to others -but alas lets carry on and I hope you input to show others "its ok to say "maybe a new line the hard crowd could go by .

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## longrange308

i would be keen on this cd that everyones talking about

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## veitnamcam

> "Nearly" All that is in Norways LR CD which we have been giving out free since 2006


Can I have one of these please.?

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## 7mmsaum

el borracho,

                 Great thread topic, my question is genuine, as you obviously have the burden to open up the discussion and science of this topic lets get it under way.

You mention 8 focus points, with the first being "Assessing wind strength and direction"

I use an anemometer and check my hunting log book notes -experience from previous shots at any given location, Ross and I always discuss the wind strength and it a source of much banter, mention wind when hunting and the jokes flow......

Wind direction is done the same way, an anemometer will give the highest reading when held facing into the wind, and as a check we use thistle down, dust, the flame from a lighter, watching flax, trees, bushes, clouds, breeze on yer face, and the same indicators in the target area/range, really whatever indicator can be found.


Early morning in the Wairarapa, wind speed approx 8mph R to L from the shots 2.30 position. Red hinds at 1429 yrds.



el borracho, I am keen to hear your factual and experiential contribution.

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## el borracho

Good to hear 7MMSAUM I am glad to see you post as this thread will be all the richer with many members thoughts - I hope my Crayons jab made you smile  :36 1 11: . I am writing somethin in word in between loading 200 rounds so I will post myself a little later .Long shot , did you hit them ?I myself am not a hunter of game only steel plate

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## 7mmsaum

Only after Stags this time of the year.

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## veitnamcam

Id like to see this thread develop.
 Im not a long ranger by any means but I would like to be able to shoot very confidently on game to 600 in most conditions. Have shot game this far(well 585) but only in perfect dead still conditions. I need to shoot more in the wind I know this. :ORLY: 
I think I have a fair understanding of how wind flows over ridges gullys etc but no idea at all of judging speed.


Would be great to see vids posted showing wind speed on a dodad and movement of vegetation.

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## Rich007

> Id like to see this thread develop.
>  Im not a long ranger by any means but I would like to be able to shoot very confidently on game to 600 in most conditions. Have shot game this far(well 585) but only in perfect dead still conditions. I need to shoot more in the wind I know this.
> I think I have a fair understanding of how wind flows over ridges gullys etc but no idea at all of judging speed.


+1

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## el borracho

Norway has done a good youtube clip well worth a watch -check it out -I always go back and look at it .Please go back to the start of this thread also as there are a few links there to look at which are great visual aids

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## veitnamcam

Nice, would be great to see some NZ Typical vegetation and MPH :Thumbsup:

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## el borracho

mmmm that would be hard unless someone has filmed it and can post .I suppose it depends where you shoot to what kind of vegitation you have -I have tea tree and pines but can use what Norway has posted to understand what I am looking for -everything is an estimation not an exact .Hopefully one of the guys can post something they have shot and explain what is happening ??

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## veitnamcam

> Hopefully one of the guys can post something they have shot and explain what is happening ??


Thats what I was hoping A series of short vids by people around the country in varying terrain/ veg/ wind with measured wind speeds would be a asset worthy of a sticky.

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## R93

> Not that hard. I will design a format and instructions when I am back from the bush (on IPhone in grass hut presently).


Got bone through your nose yet?

Posting on wind and mirage from my perspective would be a waste of time. I have a method and limits for LR hunting that I place on myself. Other people would easily surpass them.
Targets are where I lose any fear and experiment. I strive for cold barrel, central hits on steel/targets at any range under 1000. A number of factors, the worst being myself, influence the results, but in calm conditions it is getting to be consistent. 
Wind and mirage will never be mastered they will continue to frustrate many LR enthusiasts. I have had completely opposite results in a boiling mirage to what I was taught to expect. I have had plenty of head scratching moments in LR but the fun is trying to nut them out. I have accepted the fact wind and mirage will always be my greatest limiting factor in LR hunting and shooting. I can only try to build a detailed log so that I have an idea if I ever encounter similar conditions.

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## el borracho

!/ wind direction and strength 

This may seem like the ABC to most but this is such a vital part to making sure your projectile lands on target or bloody close.I would firstly suggest watching Norways video that I posted and also on the first page the other links that are very perternentto our conversation .There is no majic only basics to follow
One could think to know where the wind is coming from its just a matter of the directional pressure you feel on your face and body, point your kestral or wind device into the wind and viol’a you got it! 

If only it was “always’ that easy, some times it is but sometimes that wind is not actually doing what it appears to be doing and coming from where you think it is and discovering what is actually happening will get you to home base a lot quicker with your shot than wasting rounds unless of course you can easily see the splash of the bullet or a spotter follow the vapour trail .

 On flat land it is pretty much pressure direction and speed and it works to a greater degree with hill top to hill top shooting but more often than not condition’s are less than perfect and it ends up a little harder especially with longer range shooting so different decisions need to be employed to help you gain the upper hand.


Something I try to do is getting weather knowledge be leaving home or even while at the shooting pozzy , of course this is a reference as conditions constantly change but here is a reasonable site to check Current New Zealand Weather

Before setting up I try to take a compass bearing on a high point if possible or walk to an area where I have a better understanding of where the wind is coming from so when in position I know what the surrounding conditions are displaying be that the mirage , trees , wind, pollen or any other features that may help and they all do if you can read them and “remember the condition from shot to shot “-my memory is crap so I miss a bit .Also remember you can have micro conditions happening due to shapes bumps and dips –but that’s another post

There is a spot I have shot with Spanners out to 865yards and at the firing line it can be really hard to judge the wind as I am surrounded by Tea tree and also up higher than the valley floor which is basically high pines across from the shooting position right to the grass 800 yards away and all up the side of the hill to the left of us where the wind often comes from.
I can only see just see the tops of the pines until I hit the grass land toward the end of the range at around 800y and then the grass goes up a hill side.

The bottom of the valley is open but the top is higher up and wind funnels over the top and down or in from the bottom.
How do I handle this? I get of my arse and find a spot where I can get a better bearing, I look closely at the tree tips and see what they are doing-, how hard are they swaying, I would look for Mirage and see where it is flowing but it would be right at the target and I would rather view this at mid range .I have even used the pollen blown off the pines as an indicator –anyway hit and miss there sometimes on the first shot.
I recently shot a 1km contest which was interesting from multiple positions and distances and used the thistle down to help me .I was on top of a hill so had great clear wind which was around 10-20mph at times but mostly 10 –15 or so –I watched what was happening when the wind rose above 10 and got hard –the thistle down came off and flew. When I sat down to shoot I just adjusted for 10 mph from L to R from 7.30
And put 8 out of 10 into an 11 inch disc at 1000 yards-	 I guess no one else bothered to really view what was happening as I got double the next best score on that section and won the whole event by a fair bit –a lucky day.

When Picking direction and strength you will not always get this correct I will testify to still get beat often but I still follow the basics and get the best opportunity for myself 
 the following vids are of the comp day and also one of the shooting alley at 865y - sorry but the alley doesnt appear until the very end and I shot neither of these videos

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## el borracho

> Got bone through your nose yet?
> 
> Posting on wind and mirage from my perspective would be a waste of time. I have a method and limits for LR hunting that I place on myself. Other people would easily surpass them.Targets are where I lose any fear and experiment. I strive for cold barrel, central hits on steel/targets at any range under 1000. A number of factors, the worst being myself, influence the results, but in calm conditions it is getting to be consistent. 
> Wind and mirage will never be mastered they will continue to frustrate many LR enthusiasts. I have had completely opposite results in a boiling mirage to what I was taught to expect. I have had plenty of head scratching moments in LR but the fun is trying to nut them out. I have accepted the fact wind and mirage will always be my greatest limiting factor in LR hunting and shooting. I can only try to build a detailed log so that I have an idea if I ever encounter similar conditions.


I respect you willingness not to take that shot -advice many could learn from .Even though I get my arse beat in both wind and mirage sometimes I love the challenge -all LR shooters just keep learning its just the way it is never actually arriving !!

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## el borracho

If anyone is intending to do a wind experiment with smoke here is a very cool how to vid to watch

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## el borracho

2/Characteristics on foliage that give away signs of wind speed

This is a fun area to study and one covered I believe very well by Norway in the video already posted but It would be good to hear other peoples views that shoot areas with different foliage .
Where I live most of the foliage I shoot in is Manuka and Kanuka -truth is I wouldnt have a clue which is who and who is what and also dirty ol pine tree.
The signs from the trees and how they move are estimates I think really to confirm  the information you have gathered before the shoot on your way into your spot or from where you took some readings for direction and strength .Lets not re-envent the wheel so just  watch Norways video and get the idea of what you should be looking for  .I will post it again as not every body goes back and reads the other pages .
I work in areas od 0-3mph 4-6 -8-10 12-15  as these seem a little more obvious when each stonger pressure run starts up ,but then again I aint a wind meter just a guy guessing -generally pretty close though and using a Kestral to confirm your thoughs will make you a better wind guesser

As you use these signs more and more they do become more obvious as do most signs in shooting .
Thistle down appears to let loose around 12-15 mph if on an exposed area as the wind  whips it around -its worth finding the consistant point in the wind before the thisstle down lets go if it is below 12 mph and only shoot when those conditions show themselves -consistancy gets more hits more often !





meters per second  /mph - close enough speeds

1mps =2.25mph   2mps=4.5     3mps =6-7mph   4mps =8-9mph 
5mps =11-12mph

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## 7mmsaum

el borracho, 
Thats a pile of info, do you think caliber and projectile choice is important in windy conditions? 
And if so, what cartridge/calibre/projectile/rifle combination are you running and what distance/atmospheric conditions do you find your chances of a first round hit slipping away from you.

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## el borracho

I run a .284shehanein a single shot Barnard action with a 31inch true fligh barrel - takes about 3gr more powder than the regular .284 -54.5gr rl17 2950fps 180 berger vld pill .337 g7bc - and to answer your question it helps to have a higher bc in the wind -but you would know that as you shoot 1400 yards 

What distance/atmospheric conditions do I see not getting a first round hit - any of them especially when I miss , how about you

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## 7mmsaum

I think the 180g Berger is a great choice for the larger 7mm chamberings, no doubt about it.

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## el borracho

Ok we agree on that so how about sharing a little on your longrange shooting and cartridge/calibre/projectile/rifle combination  you are running and what distance/atmospheric conditions do you find your chances of a first round hit slipping away from you.

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## baldbob

> Ok we agree on that so how about sharing a little on your longrange shooting and cartridge/calibre/projectile/rifle combination  you are running and what distance/atmospheric conditions do you find your chances of a first round hit slipping away from you.


Mofo hot days coupled with high atmospherics are a prick

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## 7mmsaum

Im using a Sako 85 Finnlight 7mm rem mag with the newish Soft Touch stock,  and one of the great rem mag accuracy loads of 72g of ADI 2217 (pushes the 162a-max to 3050fps.)

Breezy days 1000yrds can pull you up pretty quick, but if its dead still early morn or late afternoon those 1200yrd Sika on Ferny Ridge suffer heavy casualtys  :Thumbsup:

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## R93

Nice Andrew. I have always wanted the SAUM in 7 mm. Got a model 7 in .308 with an HS precision stock that could do with a make over.
I have to come up one day to have a look at some new country.

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## el borracho

Some of the gullys and hills there would make a interesting converastion about what happens with the wind .For example if it is coming over the top of a hill into a valley say at 10mph on the top how much do you loose of the wind at the valley floor if shooting up the valley and is the valley changing the original wind angle by much by a funneling effect -of course all is dependent on width and angle for the wind to navigate

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## el borracho

This video has bullet trace and some mirage to view for those that havent seen much -always good to have visual aids

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## 7mmsaum

> Nice Andrew. I have always wanted the SAUM in 7 mm. Got a model 7 in .308 with an HS precision stock that could do with a make over.
> I have to come up one day to have a look at some new country.


Come up any time you want R93, bring your 308, Sika are great fun to hunt. I have some new lookouts cut this year and they are producing well.

The model 7 in saum is a winner, I loved mine for the Kaweka high country, light as.




And enough grunt to smote redskins

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## R93

They are great fun. I have fluked a nice eight but it lives in turangi somewhere. I have not seen it since the eighties. It will not be a .308 by the time it gets up there mate. It will be a poofter new latte cal or 7mmsaum. I want the 7mm if it is not to hard to get the magazine sorted.
I will bring the little .260 IMP so I can sneak around the scrub as well.

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## el borracho

With respect guys how about having your conversation on another thread and keep to plan on this one

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## 7mmsaum

Go 7mm, saves you from having two latte calibers.

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## 7mmsaum

> With respect guys how about having your conversation on another thread and keep to plan on this one


My pictures had wind in them...

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## R93

> My pictures had wind in them...


 :Thumbsup: 

Terribly sorry. I will refrain from posting on your threads in future.

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## el borracho

you guys have been on other forums -quickest way to ruin someones thread is post images that dont relate to wind and mirage and talk about your sticky grip rifle .This is about building information for others to read about Mirage and  wind -add to if you can or learn and ask releant questions and someone may help you unless you have finnished the journey of learning ???

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## tui_man2

> you guys have been on other forums -quickest way to ruin someones thread is post images that dont relate to wind and mirage and talk about your sticky grip rifle .This is about building information for others to read about Mirage and  wind -add to if you can or learn and ask releant questions and someone may help you unless you have finnished the journey of learning ???


No ones finshed there mate post up some more vids of you videoing yourself woffling about on an on yo have a few vids on youtube talking alotttttttttttttttttttt

to much spare time? make us a vid with your wind findings that will keep you busy :Thumbsup:

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## el borracho

it is a shame Tui_man2 you find a subject like this not worthy of adding to -I would ask is this forum just like at pub to you , chat with the boys tell how big your dick is and go home all proud having accomplished nothing -I would well imagine new shooters will be incouraged and helped by you to evolve this sport and forum  !! Yeah right
So far there are a few interested in this subject but it appear most are haters and tall poppy cutters that have little to nothing to offer ???

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## tui_man2

> it is a shame Tui_man2 you find a subject like this not worthy of adding to -I would ask is this forum just like at pub to you , chat with the boys tell how big your dick is and go home all proud having accomplished nothing -I would well imagine new shooters will be incouraged and helped by you to evolve this sport and forum  !! Yeah right


Dont know what pub you go to there in auckland mate.......but what ever floats your boat

Everone has there own ways of doing things thats what makes good shooters an average shooters

New shooters shouldnt be trying to go far enought for a start for these things to matter, so would be a case of learning the basics first

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## el borracho

Wind and Mirage are  the basics and the sooner you learn to use them to assist you the better .It appears several here feel uncomfortable with this great topic or the fact it has been posted ?? As this forum grows from friends to unknowns these topics will be asked about often -I am pressuming you guys want this forum to grow and have great info on it ??????? .
I am about helping people especially new shooters or those that know less than me hence this post -if you guys know it all add to the thread .

There are many good things on the net that one can post so you dont need to write a book or do a film if you have an offering that says what you want to portray- you dont need to envent the wheel or feel that you are cheating by publishing sound findings done by others .
I dont go to the Pub in Auckland and currently I dont drink -Charnui English breakfast tea milk no sugar with a dash of classical music to relax with

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## tui_man2

> Wind and Mirage are  the basics and the sooner you learn to use them to assist you the better .It appears several here feel uncomfortable with this great topic or the fact it has been posted ?? As this forum grows from friends to unknowns these topics will be asked about often -I am pressuming you guys want this forum to grow and have great info on it ??????? .
> I am about helping people especially new shooters or those that know less than me hence this post -if you guys know it all add to the thread .
> 
> There are many good things on the net that one can post so you dont need to write a book or do a film if you have an offering that says what you want to portray- you dont need to envent the wheel or feel that you are cheating by publishing sound findings done by others .
> I dont go to the Pub in Auckland and currently I dont drink -Charnui English breakfast tea milk no sugar with a dash of classical music to relax with


They might be basics but if you cant hit the arse end of a barn out to 500m then in the real world you dont have to know about wind an mirage as the distance you will be shooting they wont matter enough to miss anyway.

Mirages has never bothered me much for the target shooting days cant give away one easy way to limit that.......
Wind just look at the vegetation arond like what has been posted it takes time to learn an like i say people get use to things different ways, a with long range cals you can limit this to some degree also

I dont visit the pub much either but know how to have a drink or 2

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## R93

> Wind and Mirage are  the basics and the sooner you learn to use them to assist you the better .It appears several here feel uncomfortable with this great topic or the fact it has been posted ?? As this forum grows from friends to unknowns these topics will be asked about often -I am pressuming you guys want this forum to grow and have great info on it ??????? .
> I am about helping people especially new shooters or those that know less than me hence this post -if you guys know it all add to the thread .
> 
> There are many good things on the net that one can post so you dont need to write a book or do a film if you have an offering that says what you want to portray- you dont need to envent the wheel or feel that you are cheating by publishing sound findings done by others .
> I dont go to the Pub in Auckland and currently I dont drink -Charnui English breakfast tea milk no sugar with a dash of classical music to relax with


Thats where you IMHO are wrong, wind and mirage are not and should not be considered the basics when it comes to LR shooting. If they were, everyone that could shoot a reasonable group, say MOA at a 100 would be LR competent.
I have seen most of the posters on this thread shoot LR, they are above average shots and have heard good things about most of the others from those in the know. I have only read that you are any good from your posts. You are coming across as a little elitist on the subject, which is fine but maybe a reason the thread has not been added too by others.

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## el borracho

you and others would rather hate than help other shooters -move along and gas with your pals and brew up jelousy , tall poopy syndrome and hate  -itll get boring pretty quick -me I will focus on this thread and those that are enjoing what has been posted so fa and hope some positive people join in on it and give their opinion and knowledge -haha  elitist and  boring --oh god I think I sharded  -do you feel challenged by me not being a part of your click and being out going   R93 - you could see the latest Guns and Hunting magazine I think I get a mention for my shooting ability on "that day"-How about you , you any good?? I never forget though hero to zero zero to hero -its just the way it goes .

Now how about we stop this small minded shit and get a good thread happening again

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## baldbob

That awkward moment when elboringchoo realises hes just a plonker.......

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## el borracho

> They might be basics but if you cant hit the arse end of a barn out to 500m then in the real world you dont have to know about wind an mirage as the distance you will be shooting they wont matter enough to miss anyway.
> 
> Mirages has never bothered me much for the target shooting days cant give away one easy way to limit that.......
> Wind just look at the vegetation arond like what has been posted it takes time to learn an like i say people get use to things different ways, a with long range cals you can limit this to some degree also
> 
> I dont visit the pub much either but know how to have a drink or 2


Best keep off the piss Tui_man2 you can spend more on ammo ! I am a target shooter if you like in that I dont hunt .I shoot alot and anyone that shoots with me shoots a fair bit to .We have newer people out to shoot and theyre not thre to shoot 50-100 yards unless hunters -I expect someone with a rifle to know how to point and shoot -getting the other bit correct like trigger pull , natrual pont of aim , breathing , how to use their scope doesnt take more than a few lessons to makle them understand what is required -its upto them to perfect these things in time .From there they want to know why at 300 yards they can hit the small gong on a windy day --well you can imagine I dont keep the good oil from them .
After these things are passed on and understood it is up to the individual to ask for advice or practice what has been taught -problem with alot of hunting folks I have met they just dont shoot enough .Something I have found funny about many is they all say their rifles can shoot "basically"a one hole group-always amazes me

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## el borracho

How should I reply to you Bob -Ill give you some advice for free -go to  grabaseat.co.nz/ buy a ticket and take a holiday away from your small mind for atleast a week and then come back and we can talk further

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## crzyman

> Can I have one of these please.?


Burning some up now, I'll send them out on Monday :Thumbsup:

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## baldbob

> How should I reply to you Bob -Ill give you some advice for free -go to  grabaseat.co.nz/ buy a ticket and take a holiday away from your small mind for atleast a week and then come back and we can talk further


Im on holiday now, im sorry but I just dont apreciate the way u come on here an abuse long standing members and post and talk like you own the show... Its a good bunch on here thats come here from the other place to get away from people who know how to use the keyboard abit more than their abilities and certain politics.... Your more than welcome to become part of this what id call a club I suppose... Just dont come around posting as you know it all.. Spark a discussion sure, we are here to help each other and share our knowledge... I  do however know that the guys here are pretty close and also keep in touch via text and phonecall. 
We have a place where we can yarn away  as if were at the "pub"... Actions such as to tell members not to post as their posts are not following your tight guidelines obviously dont work for you.....

Put it this way... Think like were at the pub, uve had abit much to drink... Thats ok we all do.. So go home think about your actions and come back tomorrow with a smile on your face and embrace our culture... Else go  back to your old pub and stay there....

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## R93

> you and others would rather hate than help other shooters -move along and gas with your pals and brew up jelousy , tall poopy syndrome and hate  -itll get boring pretty quick -me I will focus on this thread and those that are enjoing what has been posted so fa and hope some positive people join in on it and give their opinion and knowledge -haha  elitist and  boring --oh god I think I sharded  -do you feel challenged by me not being a part of your click and being out going   R93 - you could see the latest Guns and Hunting magazine I think I get a mention for my shooting ability on "that day"-How about you , you any good?? I never forget though hero to zero zero to hero -its just the way it goes .
> 
> Now how about we stop this small minded shit and get a good thread happening again


I dont read magazines mate, I load them. Pointing out that you have had mentions in magazines is rather pointless and insecure? Seeing I dont know your real name, I dont need too either as I am not interested sorry. I dont really care if anyone thinks I am any good or not. I have done all right, I had a rewarding military career and have had you in a way, pay for most my LR training which is comforting and sort of amusing. 
I admitt to coming across elitist on some/many subjects as well El b I dont mean to be, its just the way it comes out. If I am pulled up on it I am not going to get too wound up about it. 
 I most likely lack your abilities at LR target shooting El b but I am sure I could hold my own in most other regards. As I have said before, I will refrain from posting on any of your future threads.

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## andyanimal31

> Thats where you IMHO are wrong, wind and mirage are not and should not be considered the basics when it comes to LR shooting. If they were, everyone that could shoot a reasonable group, say MOA at a 100 would be LR competent.
> I have seen most of the posters on this thread shoot LR, they are above average shots and have heard good things about most of the others from those in the know. I have only read that you are any good from your posts. You are coming across as a little elitist on the subject, which is fine but maybe a reason the thread has not been added too by others.


Trust me he can shoot and there's a couple of others on here know this as well
Get back on track guys

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## tui_man2

> Best keep off the piss Tui_man2 you can spend more on ammo ! I am a target shooter if you like in that I dont hunt .I shoot alot and anyone that shoots with me shoots a fair bit to .We have newer people out to shoot and theyre not thre to shoot 50-100 yards unless hunters -I expect someone with a rifle to know how to point and shoot -getting the other bit correct like trigger pull , natrual pont of aim , breathing , how to use their scope doesnt take more than a few lessons to makle them understand what is required -its upto them to perfect these things in time .From there they want to know why at 300 yards they can hit the small gong on a windy day --well you can imagine I dont keep the good oil from them .
> After these things are passed on and understood it is up to the individual to ask for advice or practice what has been taught -problem with alot of hunting folks I have met they just dont shoot enough .Something I have found funny about many is they all say their rifles can shoot "basically"a one hole group-always amazes me


Id be lucky if i spent 40 a week on piss i get most given to me anyway, i dont really see the point in shooting lots when you are happy an know your gear i shoot steel also with friends an to confirm an to try an push it a little but i wouldnt try to shoot animals that far as i know my limits an there can be few things to go against you, an putting a second round in something 700+ is not idea

wait time the middle of month an me an your mate *baldbob* will put you up a wee vid :Psmiley:

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## R93

> Trust me he can shoot and there's a couple of others on here know this as well
> Get back on track guys


And the rest of us cant? Oh, sorry you need a mention in a magazine or some other random endorsing you. Sorry.

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## el borracho

R96 this isnt about you or me it is a thread on Wind and Mirage not who can piss the futherst  - I would welcome your post most definatly and as you can see trying to get you guys to post but am takin flak for it , which doesnt faze me at all really in fact I find it humorous  but I would rather we posted some good stuff about the subject matter even if you find it on mars I dont care as long as it moves us forward in the learning process !! My name does not matter as I possibly will never meet any of you but have met some and shoot with others .And thank you R93 for your good millatary service and I dont mind a bit that my taxes were spent on you as it was a good investment -I am from a millatary family myself as my father was the longest serving officer in the RNZN

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## el borracho

Id appreciate that Tui_man2 cheers

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## R93

> R96 this isnt about you or me it is a thread on Wind and Mirage not who can piss the futherst


I just checked. I have not even undone my fly. I have made no claims on my ability, only mentioned the lack of them.

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## andyanimal31

> And the rest of us cant? Oh, sorry you need a mention in a magazine or some other random endorsing you. Sorry.


I dont know if the rest of you can shoot but some of the people i  have  shot with have proven track records which i use as bench marks against other shooters.
These people do it for jobs and their lives and makes me feel like a learner with their skills and knowledge they have which i sometimes have the privlidge  of been shared with me.
Thats what competitions are great for they weed out the b/s and are great levelers of over confidence of ones abillty .

A nice freindly get together would be well worth while for some interesting l/r shooting!

Cheers Andy

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## el borracho

I guess we differ greatly -you want a general chat forum with mates and nothing to serious or technical -start with wind and mirage and end up with recipes for making brownies -sensible , helpful and youll learn to make brownies but for get about the wind and mirage and forget about having stuff there for people that want to find this stuff out as you Tussock just want to gas with the boys- shoulda had that in the FAQ and we could have avoided the night of the living retards LOL :36 1 11:

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## el borracho

Andy I  look forward to shooting with soon and will call -like the sounds of the Pheasants down the road from you and would love to run a dog for you  - next comp I wanna beat you next time baddddddddddddddddddddddd

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## R93

> I dont know if the rest of you can shoot but some of the people i  have  shot with have proven track records which i use as bench marks against other shooters.
> These people do it for jobs and their lives and makes me feel like a learner with their skills and knowledge they have which i sometimes have the privlidge  of been shared with me.
> Thats what competitions are great for they weed out the b/s and are great levelers of over confidence of ones abillty .
> 
> A nice freindly get together would be well worth while for some interesting l/r shooting!
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers Andy


Ok? How do you do LR for a job and your life unless you are military? There is only handful that can attest to that. Seriously, I am curious.

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## el borracho

> Ok? How do you do LR for a job and your life unless you are military? There is only handful that can attest to that. Seriously, I am curious.


R93  Andy has friends that are very qualified shooters and the day he beat me at the "GUNSLINGER OOOHHH BAD WORD shoot his good made was calling his wind -he was the Senior Sniper Instructor from around his way -satisfied

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## tui_man2

HAHA your dragging this off topic just about more than anyone else there cheif

If you attend an do all this shooting a vid to tell us how to do it wont take that long?

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## R93

> R93  Andy has friends that are very qualified shooters and the day he beat me at the "GUNSLINGER OOOHHH BAD WORD shoot his good made was calling his wind -he was the Senior Sniper Instructor from around his way -satisfied


News for you ELb. There is *NO* such thing as a *senior sniper* instructor in NZ. And if anyone has told you that, they are most likely a wannabe pouge idiot that has never dawned a gillies suit.
Pm me the persons name please. I will confirm this further in minutes.
Also the day he beat you at GSlinger? Seriously? were you 2 the only 2 there?

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## baldbob

Lets see him show up in grey.... Hes welcome to come give us a lesson how to shoot... He can have his own wee competition in the corner against us while we all compete in a friendly manner and take the piss out of each other..

Hey abe 1st shot on the steel 1146m wit the 6.5 wasnt it lol

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## tui_man2

> News for you ELb. There is *NO* such thing as a *senior sniper* instructor in NZ. And if anyone has told you that, they are most likely a wannabe pouge idiot that has never dawned a gillies suit.
> Pm me the persons name please. I will confirm this further in minutes.


..................................................  ...................its ok dave ill own up mate its me iv been hiding this all along but now i have the burden off my back i feel free :Psmiley:

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## el borracho

Tui_man2 battling fire breathing dragooons tends to expend energy for sure and take us away from the topic at hand but it seems from the mod that doesnt matter as Hi-Jack is ok here as long as your one of the crew !
Now seriously me shooting alot -I shoot weekends as I am a worker 5 days a week at least 35 hours a week -I know I shouldnt put that much time into work and neglect the family but it is the big smoke up here and people demand alot .
I guess a video would be good but who has the time to make one -I do have a camera and will try to film the Tekapo shoot in two weeks and post if I can , me shooting myself in the foot at half a yard due to a bad wind call and being blinded by mirage -seriously I will post !!!! It will be quite cool with 30 other shooters out there flys down pissing far to impress- hopefully mine goes furtherest if not se' la vie there is always tomorrow .

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## R93

> ..................................................  ...................its ok dave ill own up mate its me iv been hiding this all along but now i have the burden off my back i feel free


 I knew it! Its that hair removal cream for men you use.......very decieving.

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## el borracho

> News for you ELb. There is *NO* such thing as a *senior sniper* instructor in NZ. And if anyone has told you that, they are most likely a wannabe pouge idiot that has never dawned a gillies suit.
> Pm me the persons name please. I will confirm this further in minutes.
> Also the day he beat you at GSlinger? Seriously? were you 2 the only 2 there?


Sorry R93 I may have got that wrong and actually only seen Andy with a bald Ken Doll dressed in cammies --- I dont know youll have to PM him -he must have been very senior though cause Andyanimal beat me good and proper and my egos so big and unmatch by my inability there was no way I thought I could have lost

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## R93

I am not interested as I know it is shit. There are only 3 units that employ these men in NZ. Courses and continuation trg are run at unit level. There is the School Of Infantry in Waiouru that used/maybe still does run cses. The best man they have there, is now a civilian.

I won a duckshooters sporting clay shoot once, can we start a thread so I can keep dropping this in? :Thumbsup:

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## el borracho

Maybe youd better wait for an answer before doing a bicarbonate of soda in the coke bottle !!!And then again if the civvy guys bald maybe it was him ??? Pm Andy , if he wants to say who it was I am sure youll get to know 

How long were you in the Wrens for

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## el borracho

R93 Im sorry I couldnt help that ! Give me a high 5  :Thumbsup:

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## andyanimal31

> I am not interested as I know it is shit. There are only 3 units that employ these men in NZ. Courses and continuation trg are run at unit level. There is the School Of Infantry in Waiouru that used/maybe still does run cses. The best man they have there, is now a civilian.
> 
> I won a duckshooters sporting clay shoot once, can we start a thread so I can keep dropping this in?


Are they at Papakura by any chance?

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## R93

> Are they at Papakura by any chance?



Obviously.

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## R93

> I think we need to add to the forum charter "this forum contains no zeros and no heroes". The guys on here, some are national champs of different things, some are sitting in the mountains, by themselves, shooting very very long distances unwitnessed, some are ex-military with detailed training and enviable trigger time, some are "love a weekend banging gongs" people, some are hunters, some are varminters, some are absolute novices.
> 
> The guys that founded this forum, and those that have been attracted to it, are the non chest beating, neither zero, not hero types, who have no desire to see their name in lights, or to kiss big name arse. The theme around here is, 20 years experience, or 2 weeks, a good idea is a good idea, and a bad one is a bad one. And everyone is allowed to have that idea, and have its merits weighed, and receive a reasonable answer. 
> 
> This thread, and the one before it are non stop squabbles, even though I think we are really all on the same page. El Borracho, take a little time to get used to the type of people on this forum, and our style of doing things, and the rest of you (myself included), cut him some slack untill he does.


Well said. You are right. I will take this aboard as I am just as touchy.

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## el borracho

> I think we need to add to the forum charter "this forum contains no zeros and no heroes". The guys on here, some are national champs of different things, some are sitting in the mountains, by themselves, shooting very very long distances unwitnessed, some are ex-military with detailed training and enviable trigger time, some are "love a weekend banging gongs" people, some are hunters, some are varminters, some are absolute novices.
> 
> The guys that founded this forum, and those that have been attracted to it, are the non chest beating, neither zero, not hero types, who have no desire to see their name in lights, or to kiss big name arse. The theme around here is, 20 years experience, or 2 weeks, a good idea is a good idea, and a bad one is a bad one. And everyone is allowed to have that idea, and have its merits weighed, and receive a reasonable answer. 
> 
> This thread, and the one before it are non stop squabbles, even though I think we are really all on the same page. El Borracho, take a little time to get used to the type of people on this forum, and our style of doing things, and the rest of you (myself included), cut him some slack untill he does.


Hero to Zero as you mention when I mention it means you do well one minute and screw up the next -alas that is shooting -it has nothing to do with individuals character !
The types of people on the forum you mention -I am sure you are just talking about  your mates as everyone is different and to date on my thread its been nothing but negative -is this the types you are refering to ??Put your head up and they want to take it off -a commonly talked about problem "some nz have " .
The truth is its been fun  and interesting seen people from different areas act in certain ways and then even admit it !!!
Ill carry on as I am friendly and willing to help and post good info and advice

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## R93

You just dont know when to shut up do you? 
I now hope to meet you in the near future. Come to a Greymouth LR day seeing BB has invited you.

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## el borracho

:XD:

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## baldbob

I think we should all just get along.

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## el borracho

I agree.

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## kiwijames

> I dont go to the Pub in Auckland and currently I dont drink -Charnui English breakfast tea milk no sugar with a dash of classical music to relax with


and yet you choose to call yourself El Borracho? 
No wonder you don't "get" the forum
Best you go get some sleep, wouldn't want that 35 hour working week to wreck you.

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## Normie

I don't think it is the topic or content of this thread, but the way you were policing it that has got people in a twist.. eg. Stay on topic, chit chat on another thread etc. The idea of this forum is to get a little off topic then get back on again. I think your style of moderating your thread has maybe stopped the experienced guys from posting their experiences? Maybe start a new thread and everyone might behave?

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## el borracho

> I don't think it is the topic or content of this thread, but the way you were policing it that has got people in a twist.. eg. Stay on topic, chit chat on another thread etc. The idea of this forum is to get a little off topic then get back on again. I think your style of moderating your thread has maybe stopped the experienced guys from posting their experiences? Maybe start a new thread and everyone might behave?


With respect Normie if I wanted to talk about someones pretty rifle with a sticky grip I would have startd a thread on it -nothing more annoying and rude as when people but into a conversation and change the topic -I am sure you would agree .

KiwiJames - I dont get the forum ?? What is there to get ? somethings just come down to good manners as with everything in life

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## baldbob

> KiwiJames - I dont get the forum ?? What is there to get ? somethings just come down to good manners as with everything in life


 :Have A Nice Day:

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## el borracho

> To our members. 
> 
> We have worked hard to maintain a harmonious atmosphere and developed a great forum culture, where people are free to post their ideas unmolested. The olive branch has been extended, and refused, repeatedly. By engaging El Boracho, all we do is continue the discontent this spreads on our otherwise blissfully cheerful forum. He has his back up, and any effort to explain to him how things work around here, and what we are trying to achieve, will clearly be met with more vitriol. It does our forum harm, and we gain nothing. 
> 
> I suggest we leave him to "his" thread, and generally ignore him and his opinions on our forum, till he settles down and relaxes. Dont respond or reply and let the spotlight drift off to somewhere more positive.


 Iam good with that Tussock  as your advice is good , ignore his opinions haha , I started an interesting good thread and would like to carry on -if you can delete everything bar posts that help this thread I would be very grateful  as you are correct that the victim mentality posters do the forum no good !As your forum grows you will understand you cannot carry on in the same manner as now -enjoy it while you are few - no offence intended or taken throughout   .
Regards El Borrachisimo

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## crzyman

This thead has no real info that you have provided other than googled links that could be put in the resources thread.

I'm going to have the last say here.

----------


## el borracho

> I think we need to add to the forum charter "this forum contains no zeros and no heroes". The guys on here, some are national champs of different things, some are sitting in the mountains, by themselves, shooting very very long distances unwitnessed, some are ex-military with detailed training and enviable trigger time, some are "love a weekend banging gongs" people, some are hunters, some are varminters, some are absolute novices.
> 
> The guys that founded this forum, and those that have been attracted to it, are the non chest beating, neither zero, not hero types, who have no desire to see their name in lights, or to kiss big name arse. The theme around here is, 20 years experience, or 2 weeks, a good idea is a good idea, and a bad one is a bad one. And everyone is allowed to have that idea, and have its merits weighed, and receive a reasonable answer. 
> 
> This thread, and the one before it are non stop squabbles, even though I think we are really all on the same page. El Borracho, take a little time to get used to the type of people on this forum, and our style of doing things, and the rest of you (myself included), cut him some slack untill he does.


Hero to Zero as you mention when I mention it means you do well one minute and screw up the next -alas that is shooting -it has nothing to do with individuals character !
The types of people on the forum you mention -I am sure you are just talking about  your mates as everyone is different and to date on my thread its been nothing but negative -is this the types you are refering to ??Put your head up and they want to take it off -a commonly talked about problem "some nz have " .
The truth is its been fun  and interesting seen people from different areas act in certain ways and then even admit it !!!
Ill carry on as I am friendly and willing to help and post good info and advice

----------


## R93

You just dont know when to shut up do you? 
I now hope to meet you in the near future. Come to a Greymouth LR day seeing BB has invited you.

----------


## el borracho

:XD:

----------


## baldbob

I think we should all just get along.

----------


## el borracho

I agree.

----------


## kiwijames

> I dont go to the Pub in Auckland and currently I dont drink -Charnui English breakfast tea milk no sugar with a dash of classical music to relax with


and yet you choose to call yourself El Borracho? 
No wonder you don't "get" the forum
Best you go get some sleep, wouldn't want that 35 hour working week to wreck you.

----------


## Normie

I don't think it is the topic or content of this thread, but the way you were policing it that has got people in a twist.. eg. Stay on topic, chit chat on another thread etc. The idea of this forum is to get a little off topic then get back on again. I think your style of moderating your thread has maybe stopped the experienced guys from posting their experiences? Maybe start a new thread and everyone might behave?

----------


## el borracho

> I don't think it is the topic or content of this thread, but the way you were policing it that has got people in a twist.. eg. Stay on topic, chit chat on another thread etc. The idea of this forum is to get a little off topic then get back on again. I think your style of moderating your thread has maybe stopped the experienced guys from posting their experiences? Maybe start a new thread and everyone might behave?


With respect Normie if I wanted to talk about someones pretty rifle with a sticky grip I would have startd a thread on it -nothing more annoying and rude as when people but into a conversation and change the topic -I am sure you would agree .

KiwiJames - I dont get the forum ?? What is there to get ? somethings just come down to good manners as with everything in life

----------


## baldbob

> KiwiJames - I dont get the forum ?? What is there to get ? somethings just come down to good manners as with everything in life


 :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## el borracho

> To our members. 
> 
> We have worked hard to maintain a harmonious atmosphere and developed a great forum culture, where people are free to post their ideas unmolested. The olive branch has been extended, and refused, repeatedly. By engaging El Boracho, all we do is continue the discontent this spreads on our otherwise blissfully cheerful forum. He has his back up, and any effort to explain to him how things work around here, and what we are trying to achieve, will clearly be met with more vitriol. It does our forum harm, and we gain nothing. 
> 
> I suggest we leave him to "his" thread, and generally ignore him and his opinions on our forum, till he settles down and relaxes. Dont respond or reply and let the spotlight drift off to somewhere more positive.


 Iam good with that Tussock  as your advice is good , ignore his opinions haha , I started an interesting good thread and would like to carry on -if you can delete everything bar posts that help this thread I would be very grateful  as you are correct that the victim mentality posters do the forum no good !As your forum grows you will understand you cannot carry on in the same manner as now -enjoy it while you are few - no offence intended or taken throughout   .
Regards El Borrachisimo

----------


## crzyman

This thead has no real info that you have provided other than googled links that could be put in the resources thread.

I'm going to have the last say here.

----------

