# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  Winchester primer fail

## Kiwi Greg

An experienced reloader mate contacted me the other day with a serious problem.

He was loading some 7-08 bullets with 139s & 2209 for some young guys.

He was extremely concerned that the starting loads did this.



I'm not sure how old the primers are, but you can clearly see where they had pierced on the edge of them.

I think only two or three did this & they have gas cut the bolt face  :Pissed Off: 

I showed him some images off Google of exactly the same thing.

He got some different primers so will be good to go.

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## nor-west

What primers did you suggest, I've been told that some makes are slightly larger?

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## Toby

I rememeber this happening to me. You told me the same thing about google. Happens a bit which is a bugger cause I still have a few thousand here

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## 6mm ackley

That would piss you off with something in the scope :Pissed Off:

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## veitnamcam

Nasty.

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## Shearer

I have had that happen three times with Winchester LR primers in one packet. Tossed what was left and have gone to another brand. They still fire ok but make a mess of the bolt face. It is the brass coloured ones that fail. Never had any problems with the silver ones.

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## Kiwi Greg

> I have had that happen three times with Winchester LR primers in one packet. Tossed what was left and have gone to another brand. They still fire ok but make a mess of the bolt face. It is the brass coloured ones that fail. Never had any problems with the silver ones.


Yep I went off the Winchester ones years ago when they changed from Silver to brass.

I use mainly Fed 215 & CCI 450s now.

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## Kiwi Greg

> What primers did you suggest, I've been told that some makes are slightly larger?


They don't need to be larger, they just need to not get a hole in them.....

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## username

Thanks for posting this also happened to me. People tried to tell me i was overloading when i knew i wasnt. Confused the fuck out of me. Now my bolts a mess.  Thanks winchester u fuckers!

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## Spanners

Brass that's  had the primer pocket swaged wrong will also do this

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## username

> Brass that's  had the primer pocket swaged wrong will also do this


Swaged?

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## Steveh054

> Brass that's  had the primer pocket swaged wrong will also do this


What he said

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## Spanners

The Dillon super swage is the worst for it as the cases lay down and if not perfectly adjusted ramp on 1 side of the pocket and do exactly what posted in the pic
My 223 Tikka boldface is pocked to hell from it
Brass getting dumped

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## steven

Hi,

We just noticed this in the last few weeks. We have had numbers of these fail in moderate 308w loads recently in target shooting, So 1~3 failures per bag on 12.  It looks like the current winchester primers are crap.  Try a lighter load, we dropped from 45gr 2208 to 44.5 and find we seem to be mostly ok. If we go hotter to get out to 1000m though we get more failures.

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## steven

> Thanks for posting this also happened to me. People tried to tell me i was overloading when i knew i wasnt. Confused the fuck out of me. Now my bolts a mess.  Thanks winchester u fuckers!


Yep we caught it in time, luckily not damaged any club guns. I'd suggest going to the seller of the primer and asking for a new bolt.

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## Pnumatix

I posted a warning about Win LR primers way back (not this forum). All I got was a lot of dribble about hot loads from know-alls. Changed to Fedral 210's and never looked back. Did nasty things to a Win Mod 70 308,and a Tikka 243 bolt-face before I had figured it out though :Oh Noes: 
Never had the same problem with the Win SR primers though.....

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## Kiwi Greg

Here is a picture I got sent of what can happen if you fail to recognise there is a problem...... :Oh Noes:   :XD:   :Pissed Off:

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## veitnamcam

Yuk!

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## username

Yip i had 4 do it before i discovered the pitting. photos shit but u get the jist

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## Toby

Ever told Winchester about it and see what they say?

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## Kiwi Greg

If you spend a couple of minutes on Google there is a few pics etc to be found.

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## username

They will know and would do fuck all if i complained other than give me more shitty primers. Pick your battles.

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## Stonewall

The usual explanation from the primer companies is that the primers have been exposed to ammonia ions after leaving the manufacturer .
This etches the stressed part of the primer cup leaving a week point which fails under normal pressure.

Federal had this happen with small rifle primers years ago.
I use Rem 7.5 sr primers in 6 PPC .

Pity as the Winchester plated primers were very good.

The Russian primers do not seem to have this problem.

Glenn

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## steven

I asked my club armourer and he's saying he thinks its possibly the old batch of winchester primers that came in and did this some years ago now being sold again due to the shortages.  Certainly if Id bought these recently I'd be going back to the gunshop and getting them to pay for a new bolt. 

After that there is always the disputes tribunal.

regards

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## NZShoota

Had the same problem a year or so ago so told the importer about it, it was the first they had heard about it apparently so wanted the batch numbers and any remaining primers returned (plus any of the fired ones that had failed). Replaced them with no problems (I chose CCI's for the replacements).

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## Puffin

Same issue just cropped up here. Lot number DFL713G. 

Previous cartons of un-plated have been OK.

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## Neckshot

How did I miss this thread!!! :Angry: .Bought some winny primers a while ago they were cheap(first mistake) had been using fed lr primers no dramas then finally ran out swithched to winny for Hihitahi shoot and found out the hardway poped primers blown primers stuck case the list goes on.They are bloddy messy and totally unreliable and after only a few shots my bolt faced was scared up now pitted( I continued shooting as im stubburn and will now end up buying another bolt....second mistake).Ive tken some pics not good as ive got a shyte camera(third mistake :Grin: ).

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## Rushy

Yep mate they totally fucked the face of the bolt head on my long range rifle (severely pitted the face and welded the ejector pin to the bolt head) and I have been out of commission for over four months now, waiting for replacement parts. Winchester should buy us both a new rifle.

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## Toby

@Steveh054

Be careful mate

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## Neckshot

> Yep mate they totally fucked the face of the bolt head on my long range rifle (severely pitted the face and welded the ejector pin to the bolt head) and I have been out of commission for over four months now, waiting for replacement parts. Winchester should buy us both a new rifle.


Gutting mate, I love my rifle and this has really annoyed me. Lesson learnt im moving on and going back to Fed primers.

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## Kscott

Bugger indeed.

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## Steveh054

> @Steveh054
> 
> Be careful mate


All good, I will just use someone else' rifle. Nah she's good,
 I have a couple of old rifles to test with

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## Moutere

> got a shyte camera


Your camera looks fine, it is just focused on the background rather than the bolt face.

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## Pop Shot

> Gutting mate, I love my rifle and this has really annoyed me. Lesson learnt im moving on and going back to Fed primers.


 @Neckshot - are they the primers I sold you mate? That is the reason I got rid of them and switched to Fed 210's.

My bolt face took a hiding and as I was only learning to reload, I knew no better. Luckily Abe has cleaned it up my bolt face a lot compared to what it was.

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## Savage1

If the bolt still functions then don't bother replacing it, there is an old fella at our local NRA range that has a perfect ring on his bolt face from it happening so much and his rifle is a fricken laser beam.

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## gimp

Anyone had problems with WinSR?

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## Neckshot

> @Neckshot - are they the primers I sold you mate? That is the reason I got rid of them and switched to Fed 210's.
> 
> My bolt face took a hiding and as I was only learning to reload, I knew no better. Luckily Abe has cleaned it up my bolt face a lot compared to what it was.


Yea they are mate,It was when it was hard to get easy access to fed LR primers but all good.Better to happen in the comp environment than during a hunt.

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## BRADS

> How did I miss this thread!!!.Bought some winny primers a while ago they were cheap(first mistake) had been using fed lr primers no dramas then finally ran out swithched to winny for Hihitahi shoot and found out the hardway poped primers blown primers stuck case the list goes on.They are bloddy messy and totally unreliable and after only a few shots my bolt faced was scared up now pitted( I continued shooting as im stubburn and will now end up buying another bolt....second mistake).Ive tken some pics not good as ive got a shyte camera(third mistake).
> Attachment 21403Attachment 21404Attachment 21405


That's dumb mate :Sad:

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## NZShoota

> Anyone had problems with WinSR?


I've had no problems with the the SR only the LR.

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## killroy

Have had exactly the same problem with Murom primers, rifle owners not amused!

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## BRADS

Maybe this should be a sticky at the top. 
After so many threads you guys shouldn't be using them.

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## Kscott

> Have had exactly the same problem with Murom primers, rifle owners not amused!


Large or small rifle primers ? I've found some aren't seating properly in some brass for small rifle, but CCI's work just fine.

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## dogmatix

> Have had exactly the same problem with Murom primers, rifle owners not amused!


I'm using Murom small rifle primers, no problems.
I heard it was their pistol primers that had the issue, hence Reloaders in Auckland won't sell the pistol primers, only small and large rifle.

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## killroy

Murom - initially LR in a 25/06, then SR in my own .223. Strong loads in both cases but no problems with Federal or Fiocchi. Not tried Winchester lately, gave them away when it appeared that the brass-coloured generation was relatively under-sized, around .0008" according to me. Not much, but enough to cause loose fit in pockets prematurely.

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## Grasshopper

All Winchester primers?  I have Lot No. TEL287G.  Any one can check if any failure out of this batch?  So far I have no problem.  Thanks for helping.

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## Rushy

@AndrewH do you know the batch number that fucked up my bolt face?  If so then let Grasshopper know.

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## AndrewH

Don't know the batch no unfortunately. They were Magnum primers with a 20%ish failure rate. 


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## Grasshopper

Thanks guys, mine is standard large primers WLR.  I have check the bolt faces of the rifles that I have fired them and do not find any gas cutting.

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## ChrisF

Years ago , I had the same thing happen , in 223 calibre , I was using start loads from the current ADI manual , and Federal small rifle primers , had them blow out just like the pic , happened on a Sako 75 & a TC Contender , and up till then , I had never had a problem with my reloads , I thought it may be rifle , no , and then brass , used Win & then lapua .
Then talking to a mate that run the relaoding gear for Belmont , when I said I had problems with my 223 reloads , 1st thing he said are you using Fed , he said they where a known issue , and as soon as I stopped using Federal small rifle primers , never had issues with my 223 reloads .

So , now , I NEVER buy fed small , unless I want to run it in pistol ammo , 9mm & 38spl etc .
Opps , and YES the ammo gas cut the bolt face on both rifles , just like a small  gas axe would .

Later  Chris

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## Grasshopper

Chris, let me know if you are interested in buying my Winchester Large Rifle primers? Or anyone for that matter.  Now seriously, up till now, I have no problem but all these posted just gave me goosebumps.  As a matter of fact, I have just primed more brass with them.

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## ChrisF

Ive got some Russian LR primers you can have !!!
A mate gave me some to try , loaded up using my std 308 load , and they didnot pierce , BUT they totally flattened , so NO Russian primers for ME , least not in rifles .

Later  Chris

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## dogmatix

I use Fed small and Fed small match and Morum small primers.
Ditto for Fed large match.

Have previously used Win small and large, Fed large and magnum.
Never had any issues with this.

So judging by the comments here, no one should ever use Fed, Win and Morum primers ever again.
 :ORLY: 

Good luck with that...

Also changing primers but keeping the load the same is silly, the dynamics have totally changed, seems the primer was stronger or the flame bigger. Should really start the load development from scratch.

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## Gillie

@dogmatix, sounds like you will have to shift to CCI primers!

Well, i think federal match primers are extremely dangerous. In fact i think the best approach for everyone is to give me what federal match primers you have left so i can dispose of the safely. Someone just raided the stash and in a weak moment they managed to pry some from us  :Thumbsup: 

On a slightly more serious note I may be convinced to swap some federal large rifle magnum match primers for some federal small rifle match or large rifle match primers...

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## veitnamcam

I had a couple of cci lr do it to me a month ago,tho its possible the brass had been previously cut from a primer fail as it was second hand to me.

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## dogmatix

> @dogmatix, sounds like you will have to shift to CCI primers!
> 
> Well, i think federal match primers are extremely dangerous. In fact i think the best approach for everyone is to give me what federal match primers you have left so i can dispose of the safely. Someone just raided the stash and in a weak moment they managed to pry some from us 
> 
> On a slightly more serious note I may be convinced to swap some federal large rifle magnum match primers for some federal small rifle match or large rifle match primers...


Haha... nice try! 
And besides, I'm down to my last 1400 Fed Match Small, 1200 Fed Match Large and 1800 Fed small, its making me nervous!

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## Kiwi Greg

> Haha... nice try! 
> And besides, I'm down to my last 1400 Fed Match Small, 1200 Fed Match Large and 1800 Fed small, its making me nervous!


More primers are in the country, don't stress, if you want to stress look at your powder stocks......

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## Neckshot

> More primers are in the country, don't stress, if you want to stress look at your powder stocks......


Whew!!! got something right then :Grin:

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## Dead is better

> I'm using Murom small rifle primers, no problems.
> I heard it was their pistol primers that had the issue, hence Reloaders in Auckland won't sell the pistol primers, only small and large rifle.


Good to know but winchester just lost by meager business. A new bolt is way out of my budget

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## Gillie

> More primers are in the country, don't stress, if you want to stress look at your powder stocks......


Awesome news! Finally the back order might get filled!
Stocked up on powder for the time being at least.

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## 257weatherby

So, you can supply some fed 215's to a bloke in need?

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## Gillie

I don't have any federal 215s. I had... yes, HAD some federal GM215Ms. They have been grabbed by another forum member

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## Grasshopper

Guilty as charged  :Wink:

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## dogmatix

> So, you can supply some fed 215's to a bloke in need?


Magnum Imports has plenty according to his website. Email him, send him a TM question (Wchapman) or PM him (magimps)

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## ChrisF

Unlike , others here on this site , I have 1) No axe to grind & 2 ) have no hidden agenda , ie like I sell a make of primer , and am dising the others .

Had 2 brand new rifles buggered by Fed small rifle primers , so I chose not to use them at ALL .

I use Fed LR Magnum match , no problems so far , and will continue in 300WM & 338LM .

As to the comment as to switching out primers and not working up from scratch , the load I swapped was a mild load , and I saw no need to reduce that .

My std primer for 308 is CCI BR2 , very happy with it , and will keep using it .

Also , just to be clear , I have a number of mates that shoot a lot , and have never had any trouble with Win primers .

Be aware that some people on this forum , are maybe less than truthful ( ie lie ) , if it furthers there business interests .

YEAP , you guessed IT , I donot sell Win primers or CCI primers or Russian primers , OR any primers at all , amagine that .

.

Later  Chris

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## veitnamcam

Neither do I:rolleyes:

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## Rushy

> YEAP , you guessed IT , I donot sell Win primers or CCI primers or Russian primers , OR any primers at all , amagine that .


Nor do I Chris. I just have a severely munted bolt face caused by multiple failures with Winchester Primers and I have lost the enjoyment of using my rifle of 5 months and counting.

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## Neckshot

Just got  some more Fed lr primers so decided to have a compare in sizes.Expurts can decide if this is a contributing factor for falling out and popping after fireing and the other posted results. These are for my 260 lapua cases,i measeured random ones from both packets and they all came up with the same result.Ive also got batch numbers and if any one wants these at your own risk then there yours other wise there getting dumped down an offal hole.

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## Pop Shot

I've got another 300 odd with the same batch number.... I won't be using them eh.

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## Neckshot

HA ha nah!.Have you sorted your roar loads.

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## Pop Shot

> HA ha nah!.Have you sorted your roar loads.


Yeah mate.. Changed to Fed 210's and backed it off slightly. Results are now much more consistent.

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## BRADS

> Just got  some more Fed lr primers so decided to have a compare in sizes.Expurts can decide if this is a contributing factor for falling out and popping after fireing and the other posted results. These are for my 260 lapua cases,i measeured random ones from both packets and they all came up with the same result.Ive also got batch numbers and if any one wants these at your own risk then there yours other wise there getting dumped down an offal hole.
> Attachment 21969Attachment 21970Attachment 21971


If your primers are falling out I suspect you've hurt the brass.
As for the primers before yet another person destroys a bolt stick em in the offal hole mate best place for them :Have A Nice Day: 


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## Neckshot

> If your primers are falling out I suspect you've hurt the brass.
> As for the primers before yet another person destroys a bolt stick em in the offal hole mate best place for them
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Twice fired cases i don't reckon especially when there not hot loads 

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## Nibblet

Don't stick Em down the hole, use them as a target.

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## BRADS

> Twice fired cases i don't reckon especially when there not hot loads 
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2


I wasn't suggesting they are.
Have you swaged the primer pockets?



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## Pop Shot

> Have you swaged the primer pockets?


I've noticed loose primer pockets after around four firings (Lapua Brass - loads are warnish). 

I use this to clean the primer pockets out - https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=sw...er%3B880%3B660 

Likely cause?

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## BRADS

Your link is not working for me


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## Nibblet

> Your link is not working for me
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hornady primer pocket cleaner, the rough mill head looking one.

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## BRADS

> Hornady primer pocket cleaner, the rough mill head looking one.


I imagine if you went two town with it you could wreck the pocket?
What do others think,
Never cleaned a primer pocket in my life :Have A Nice Day: 


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## Nibblet

> I imagine if you went two town with it you could wreck the pocket?
> What do others think,
> Never cleaned a primer pocket in my life
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah mine are lucky if they get the lee pocket cleaner run over them, generally do for the 338, just feel like with that much powder getting burnt it might be wise but who knows.
My case prep is pretty much, deprime/resize, primer and seat bullet, after putting in powder of course.

Would guess that tool in a power drill could get away on you pretty quick

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## Neckshot

I don't clean my primer pockets never have.I think the size was the issue but like I said ill see what the expurt people say 





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## NZShoota

> As for the primers before yet another person destroys a bolt stick em in the offal hole mate best place for them
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Or contact the importer and return them. They might even replace them with something other than Winchesters. Like I previously mentioned they were only too happy to replace my unused primers with CCI (pretty much all they had in stock at the time). My batch came from Steves Wholesalers and were replaced through my local store after I contacted the importer direct.

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## BRADS

> I don't clean my primer pockets never have.I think the size was the issue but like I said ill see what the expurt people say 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2


Have you changed your load at all?



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## Rushy

I bet he haas shot his load more than he has changed it BRADS

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## Pop Shot

Seems I can forget about cleaning the primer pocket for now - eliminates one more thing haha.

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## veitnamcam

> Seems I can forget about cleaning the primer pocket for now - eliminates one more thing haha.


As long as you can still get them to seat flush.

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## Neckshot

Put ten rounds thru with fed primers this arvo everything is back to normal end of episode for me.

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## BRADS

> Put ten rounds thru with fed primers this arvo everything is back to normal end of episode for me.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2


Did you get a new bolt head?

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## Neckshot

> Did you get a new bolt head?


Nope dosnt seam to bother anything really .I'm just happy to be back to were I was before i head bush  :Grin: 

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## Pop Shot

> Nope dosnt seam to bother anything really. I'm just happy to be back to were I was before i head bush 
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2


+1 

It's only cosmetic damage eh. Luckily Abe cleaned most of my mess up!

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## 260rem

Out of 20 + years of reloading and many thousands of rifle and pistol rounds I have had no problems with Winchester primers but I have with federal

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## rogers.270

Bugger........................ now i know whats been causing the pitting.......................... pissed

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## longrange308

had zero problems with winchester in lapua brass
switched to norma 5 out of first ten blew

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## 260rem

I have done a lot of reloading for pistol revolver shotgun and rifle using Winchester primers and have never had any trouble with any of them

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## K95

I think some of the problem can be hot loads or old brass also. I have a gas ring on the bolt face of my 280AI using nosler brass and Federal primers.

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## longrange308

mine was brand new norma brass, you can feel the seating pressure change 
not as good as lapua they great even with hot loads and multi firings

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## K95

Federal primers 

image by AckleyImproved, on Flickr

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## Kiwi Greg

> Federal primers 
> 
> image by AckleyImproved, on Flickr


Is there anything wrong with that bolt face ?

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## veitnamcam

I couldn't see any pitting either.

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## Nibblet

Just a nice clean ring mark. Looks the same as my 308 bolt face, failure free.

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## K95

It has a cut ring. It can be felt and seen easily.

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## Nibblet

> It has a cut ring. It can be felt and seen easily.


Is it the darker looking ring? It looks almost perfectly cut. We have a dude at our FTR range with a bolt face looking very similar.

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## veitnamcam

> It has a cut ring. It can be felt and seen easily.


Bugger!

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## K95

Yes, the dark ring where gas has been slowly cutting the face. I'm not too worried, it still shoots fine.

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