# Outdoors > Outdoor Transport >  Robinson helicopters - new possible rules CAA

## stug

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti...ectid=11828807

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## zimmer

Just seen this US helicopter maker rejects NZ crash report | Radio New Zealand News

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## R93

Having quite a few hours in both R22 and 44 I reckon they should put a wind strength restriction on them that differs from the manual.

They can be pretty scary in anything over 25knts in mountainous areas.

But if you strictly follow procedures in those conditions they will get you home.



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## outdoorlad

> Just seen this US helicopter maker rejects NZ crash report | Radio New Zealand News


Worried about there reputation, sales, being sued so they will push the blame to pilots.

Unfortunately I think there are valid points on both sides here.

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## veitnamcam

Just to get this in my dumb engineer type brain.

For you clever pilot type fellas. Mast bump would come about from a negative g situation yes? like turbulence or up/down drafts caused by mountainous terrain?

Sorry if my terminology is off .

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## BRADS

Yes turbulence, but also the main cause with the robby is large or abrupt control adjustment at high speed and light weight creating zero g on the mast.
Treated right as Dave said they are good.


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## mikee

could it be that we do things here with them they were never really designed for??

I was under the impression that they were originally designed as a "commuter helicopter"

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## R93

> could it be that we do things here with them they were never really designed for??
> 
> I was under the impression that they were originally designed as a "commuter helicopter"


Spot on. We have been told by Robinson for years that we do things in NZ they are not designed for.


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## R93

> So what happens in the case of the helo flying along straight and level and then suddenly ceasing to fly straight and level and impacting into terra firma?  Do we have an issue like the Cessna's with the SIDS programme, old airframes that when given a really thorough inspection are killed off as beyond economic repair due to corrosion and stress cracking?
> 
> It just seems a bit weird that with all of the publicity of the mast bumping issues, and the causes being so well understood that we are having all of these accidents due to pilot error.  The pilots can't all be just acting like muppets and getting it totally wrong!!!


Once the machine is in Low G the recovery procedure to rectify it, is a totally unnatural cyclic input to what the machine is doing.




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## WhistlingWings

The aircraft affect from neg G is a right roll. well more like a really fast snap roll to the right. 
The natural reaction is left cyclic. But that lead's to catastrophic events. The real recovery is aft cyclic. As R93 said....unnatural to what the pilot is seeing. 
It isn't just confined to Robinsons. Any two bladed helicopter can be effected. 
However.....Robinson has had many many blade failures. Both departing in flight, to cracking. There was a series of blades coming off in flight in the 90s. 
For me, thats unreliable. 
I will never fly one again. 
Robbie lovers will give me shit. But tons crash, mostly unexplained. 
Robinson will never make composite blades, or make it a 3 bladed system which mast bumping doesn't occur in as it admits to design flaw. Robbies rotor design is completely different to any other 2 bladed heli.

Happy to go into more Principles of flight to explain MB more.

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## WhistlingWings

> could it be that we do things here with them they were never really designed for??
> 
> I was under the impression that they were originally designed as a "commuter helicopter"


yes, true. Designed as a commuter heli. 
But they still shouldn't break up mid flight. and small pilot errors shouldn't cause catastrophic events.

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## Moutere

> Just to get this in my dumb engineer type brain.
> 
> For you clever pilot type fellas. Mast bump would come about from a negative g situation yes? like turbulence or up/down drafts caused by mountainous terrain?
> 
> Sorry if my terminology is off .




This is not meant to be in any way an analysis of any of the accidents mentioned in the above posts, but will hopefully help explain what they're referring to as mast bumping.

Mast bumping is generally accepted as being caused by incorrect lateral cyclic inputs when the aircraft is in a 'negative g' situation.
'Negative g' can be caused by either turbulence, or induced by the pilot by 'bunting' the helicopter over as brads correctly explained.
If the 'negative g' unloading is sufficient enough, the thrust vector from the tail rotor can cause the fuselage to roll while the disk is in an unladen state.
The correct action is to first gently apply aft cyclic to regain the disk loading (to make the fuselages weight hang from the blades again) before any lateral (sideways) input can safely be made.
However, if lateral cyclic is used first to counteract this apparent uncommanded roll, the blades can flap excessively and possibly contact the mast with the inner head assembly at the blade root end. 
Two bladed teetering systems are particularly susceptible to this phenomenon and pilots are trained to understand, identify and correct this phenomenon associated with 'negative g' situations.

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## R93

I have been trained in low G recovery as much as anyone but I have no idea if I would react in a real event accordingly. 
Low G according to the report took my best mate. He was a 10000 hour pilot with above average skill. He has averted several emergency situations including failed tail rotor at AUW.
Total engine failure during a climb and in a turn at 200 AGL. Yet a bit of wind got him in a R22.

I am with WW. I doubt I will ever steer one again. I have flown in winds that caused my ass cheeks to rip a bit of the seat off😆
I was flying around in an area about an hour before 2 men lost their lives in an R22 due to suspected turbulence. It wasn't pleasant.


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## outdoorlad

There are several factors that can contribute/cause mast bumping, negative g loading, low rotor rpm, turbulence, light weight & high speed & incorrect pilot inputs.

Even the most experienced pilot can't predict when turbulence might occur all the time, the problem in the Robbies is if you make the wrong input it's all over, there's no second chance. Give me a H500 any day

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## shift14

The two blade teetering head design is not peculiar to Robinsons.

Among those heads I've maintained and overhauled are the Bell 206, and Hiller UH12-E and Soloy conversions.

Others are any of the Bells, from the Bell 47 (Souix in the RNZAF), UH1-D ( Iroquois) and civil derivatives up to the 212/214, and the AH-1 Cobra......

Mast bump is a possibility with that head design, but none of those machines mentioned fall out of the sky with the regularity of the Robinson.

Pretty easy for Robinson to point the finger at the pilot, when for the majority of the time the poor bugger isn't around to defend himself.

Myself and another member here had first hand experience of these POS's, we were interviewed by NZCAA as the last people to ride in a well known operator's R-66 prior to its fatal crash while returning to base after dropping us into our block. The thinking was he encountered turbulence/burble going through a high pass and the disc became unloaded, the mast bump scenario. RIP Mark.

"Death on a budget" is how I've heard a high hours fling winger refer to them.

I save my hard earned and pay for the 500...

B.       ( Fixer of flying objects since Feb 7, 1977 )

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## WhistlingWings

Most if not all operators in the Queenstown arena longer operate them. The risk to their business is too hight to have a fatal in a R44 when they have so much bad press. 
Any helicopter can have a accident. And everyday when I fly i remind myself of that. 
I consider myself a safe, cautious pilot and have flown all over the place. NZ, Canada, Papua New Guinea, Australia. 
But i consider the risk to myself goes up vastly when flying the robby. I have a lot of time in Bell helicopters also and I certainly do not have the same risk assessment compared to the Crapinson Heli.

On a side note, if I'm Not the pilot and getting flown into the bush. h500, AS350 and thats it.

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## stug

A while back I made a decision to not be a passenger in a robbi, after reading all this I glad I made that decision.

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## outdoorlad

The difference between the bell heli's etc & the Robbies is they have high inertia blades whereas the Robbies have low inertia blades which don't help. A mate used to have a Jet ranger years ago & said there was enough inertia left in the blades after doing an auto rotation to lift it up again.

When Over the Tops one went in, the weather was apparently good so a couple of these accidents have a ? Over them

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## WhistlingWings

Also the fact Robinson does and still have blade issues.
The modification for the dash 7 blast is fu*ked in my opinion. 
Tin snips!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2aPqgFq3A4

I was shocked when I saw this. This is after multiple cracks worldwide. A full recall would have been better. But nah, get the tin snips out!

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## WhistlingWings

Dash 7 blade I meant.
Some of the results of the mod look bloody ugly.

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## R93

> The difference between the bell heli's etc & the Robbies is they have high inertia blades whereas the Robbies have low inertia blades which don't help. A mate used to have a Jet ranger years ago & said there was enough inertia left in the blades after doing an auto rotation to lift it up again.
> 
> When Over the Tops one went in, the weather was apparently good so a couple of these accidents have a ? Over them


R22 has low inertia. R44 and 66 are high inertia.


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## mikee

Well I have flown onto and off purseiners for work quite  a few times but only the once in an R22 and that was enough. 
500's and Jet Rangers feel positively safe compared to a robbie
Unfortunately most of the vessels bar one have gone to robbies due to maintenance cost and the remaining one was sold last week so I hear 
Living in the salt ontop of a boat does  not in my opinion make a great living place for a helicopter full stop
Fortunately with my change of employer I may never have too set foot on another seiner again

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## Ryan_Songhurst

Haven't flown in a Robbie for years, when I was at school I had a holiday job with the pest board and we baited all the little islands in the waitaki river ( how/why there are actually possums living on them is still beyond me) and we did heaps of flying in a 22, he would drop us off, we would run a bait line and then radio him to take us to the next island, I thought it was great fun, and I got paid for it, couldn't believe my luck!
Now I'm a little older and questionably slightly wiser, you would have to pay me a shit tonne of money to fly in a Robbie

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## Smiddy

Had a close call in one coming into land at 1600m once, the pilot just yelled "hold on" as we hit the ground hard then she was back up and then down just before a major drop off - I told him it was my first time in a 22, he said nearly your last ......
Flew in one last week, just so cheap, $300 one way flight to the tops is so affordable, where if it was a 500 I suspect it would be around $600


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## Munsey

Flew in one last week, just so cheap, $300 one way flight to the tops is so affordable . Unfortunately they are know for the "one Way flights "

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## R93

> Had a close call in one coming into land at 1600m once, the pilot just yelled "hold on" as we hit the ground hard then she was back up and then down just before a major drop off - I told him it was my first time in a 22, he said nearly your last ......
> Flew in one last week, just so cheap, $300 one way flight to the tops is so affordable, where if it was a 500 I suspect it would be around $600
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No offence mate but unless you have a midget pilot that weighs 40kgs and running only 20mins fuel an R22 is over weight with a fella as big as you in it, at sea level. 
No way would I have ever flown you with a pack and rifle up too the tussock in 1 load unless the wind was favorable. 


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## veitnamcam

> No offence mate but unless you have a midget pilot that weighs 40kgs and running only 20mins fuel an R22 is over weight with a fella as big as you in it, at sea level. 
> No way would I have ever flown you with a pack and rifle up too the tussock in 1 load unless the wind was favorable. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Jeepers there weight capacity is that low?
Is that where the dragging 3 or 4 deer down a steep slope/over a bluff to get enough airspeed to lift the load came from?

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## TeRei

Wayne Pratt of Karamea caught/killed over 7000 deer in the early model Robbie and uses the R44. He is not dead. Phil Janssen was full time on venison recovery in an R22 for many years and is still alive.Rule of thumb is over 20knots in the R22 and you are in danger country. In the hands of a skilled pilot there is nothing wrong with the R22 including heli hunting. Just pick your pilot.

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## veitnamcam

> Wayne Pratt of Karamea caught/killed over 7000 deer in the early model Robbie and uses the R44. He is not dead. Phil Janssen was full time on venison recovery in an R22 for many years and is still alive.Rule of thumb is over 20knots in the R22 and you are in danger country. In the hands of a skilled pilot there is nothing wrong with the R22 including heli hunting. Just pick your pilot.


Thats pretty fucken slow for something that flys and is megabucks an hour to fly!

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## R93

> Jeepers there weight capacity is that low?
> Is that where the dragging 3 or 4 deer down a steep slope/over a bluff to get enough airspeed to lift the load came from?


Yeah, shouldn't even be doing that but everyone does.
How many times can ya stretch a rubber band before it breaks?

Their blades are crap imo and every heavy load adds a little more stress to them and the drive train as they struggle in their plane of rotation.

Saying someone has survived because of their skill until now, is neither here nor there and basically an insult to the pilots that have lost their lives in them. (Even tho I am sure that's not your intention.)
Where does 20knts fit in? 
7000 deer is only a couple seasons on venison. I know Wayne has done a few more than that. Hope he has many more. But I am sure he would be the first to admit that the R22 doesn't leave much to chance.





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## 6x47

VC: I think he was talking wind speed..

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## veitnamcam

> VC: I think he was talking wind speed..


Ahhh that makes more sense........thats not much wind tho either.

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## R93

> Ahhh that makes more sense........thats not much wind tho either.


It is, when its up your bum (in any machine for that matter) while working animals.😆

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## veitnamcam

> It is, when its up your bum (in any machine for that matter) while working animals.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


What I was going for is 20knt "measured" at presumably the local airport could mean back eddy's, up and down drafts and funnels that turn 20knt into 40-60knt in places.

presumably 20knt would be no problem at all over the likes of the outback of Australia(dust discounted) vs the mountains of NZ ?

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## R93

> What I was going for is 20knt "measured" at presumably the local airport could mean back eddy's, up and down drafts and funnels that turn 20knt into 40-60knt in places.
> 
> presumably 20knt would be no problem at all over the likes of the outback of Australia(dust discounted) vs the mountains of NZ ?


Yup. You're onto it. 
If the machine weather cocks when in balance, it is too windy to be in the mountains imo.
A 20+ knt S easterly or Northerly was unpleasant to fly in when up some major South Westland valleys in a 22 or 44.
We never hunted in anything like that as the animals were not about either.

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## Snowgrass

Mast Bumping: Has New Zealand Pilot Culture Cost Lives? - Heliweb Magazine Some might find it interesting.

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## 7mmwsm

> Wayne Pratt of Karamea caught/killed over 7000 deer in the early model Robbie and uses the R44. He is not dead. Phil Janssen was full time on venison recovery in an R22 for many years and is still alive.Rule of thumb is over 20knots in the R22 and you are in danger country. In the hands of a skilled pilot there is nothing wrong with the R22 including heli hunting. Just pick your pilot.


Was thinking the same.
Pratty was catching up to 50 reds a day in a 22 when they were in Argentina.

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## stug

I've got/had a pretty awesome photo of Wayne using his Robbi to herd a big red stag towards my brother on the ground in Argentina.

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## tetawa

Tell me you guys who travel the world flying helicopters, is there a problem with "mast bumping" with 22 and 44 Robbies elsewhere.

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## stug

If you read the article posted above by Snowgrass it seems NZ has a very high rate compared to US.

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## outdoorlad

Undetermined reasons: Are Robinson helicopters too dangerous?

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## R93

> If you read the article posted above by Snowgrass it seems NZ has a very high rate compared to US.


We do have a high rate but the majority of our country is mountainous with a different climate compared to the US.

The Yanks are right. If the machine is flown as per the manual when in turbulent conditions the machine will perform fine.

I personally think there should be a max wind strength restriction placed on them in NZ.
Sometimes you cant help or predict the wind strength on your flight route.
But limiting the chances will reduce the events aside from poor handling.


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## madjon_

> Undetermined reasons: Are Robinson helicopters too dangerous?


That was worth a read,thanks T

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## tetawa

> If you read the article posted above by Snowgrass it seems NZ has a very high rate compared to US.


Aware of that but most more interested in the input from pilots who may have  discussed it with other overseas pilots. Wondered if "pilot error" was being pushed there.

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## 7mmwsm

Very similar conversation could be had regarding 4 wheel bikes. Used as per instructions they are great machines.

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## outdoorlad

Interesting that the two non fatal must bump episodes that have happened in NZ, they didn't follow Robinsons procedure (for various reasons) & survived by doing something different, one of which is a technique advocated by Simon Spencer-Bower who is probably the most experienced Robbie instructor in the world.

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## R93

> Interesting that the two non fatal must bump episodes that have happened in NZ, they didn't follow Robinsons procedure (for various reasons) & survived by doing something different, one of which is a technique advocated by Simon Spencer-Bower who is probably the most experienced Robbie instructor in the world.


Care to elaborate? I have never heard of another recovery except one that was not proven at the time. May have been from SSB all the same.


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## outdoorlad

One was in New Plymouth, experienced instructor with a student, when it violently rolled right he followed it by rolling right into it to keep the disc alignment to fuselage, then flew it out of the dive. It did damage the rotor head but held together. 

Here's the Taic report
Aviation Reports[G]skins/taicAviation/skin_aviation

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## R93

> One was in New Plymouth, experienced instructor with a student, when it violently rolled right he followed it by rolling right into it to keep the disc alignment to fuselage, then flew it out of the dive. It did damage the rotor head but held together. 
> 
> Here's the Taic report
> Aviation Reports[G]skins/taicAviation/skin_aviation


Cheers. You would want plenty of height on your side.😆

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## WhistlingWings

Speaking to the caa guys, he was extremely lucky and was fractions of a mm from having a different outcome.

In regards to mast bumps overseas. There are numerous must bumping accidents. One recent one killed two extremely experienced and high time pilots in Canada. 
Aside from mast bumping, many people have been killed due to post impact fires. In accidents that should have been survivable.  The fuel tanks just couldn't handle a heavy landing and would rupture. You can change to a sealing tank but again at owners cost.

Don't forget, demonstrating mast bumping is actually illegal. Flight manual states it.

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## WhistlingWings

Sorry, demonstrating low G

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## BruceY

And in the Herald this week the Pilot /Owner of a company in Wanaka with several different Robby's has flown 22,000 hrs, 16,000 in Robby's no problems, skilled I'd say....like my mate Alan Beck, Eltham, skilled not killed...

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## Friwi

Just a question. Could a specialist manufacturer or another helicopter manufacturer be able to build some stronger or better blades for the Robinson?  Or adapt three blades instead of two?

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## WhistlingWings

Yes they could.
Van Horn made a new tail rotor for the b206 which gives it pretty amazing tail rotor authority. No problems with Loss of Authority landing at 11200ft. They have now made main rotor blades for the 206.
No doubt SSB and Mr Beck are extremely skilled pilots. But the fact that there are so many unexplained accidents in Robbies makes me concerned. CAA workers told me that most Robbie accidents, the actual cause of the accident are unknown.

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## Snowgrass

Thought Van Horn were designing blades for the 44 as well. Not sure what's happening with them now though.

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## WhistlingWings

Have not heard about the Robbie ones, but they are developing bell and md ones. 
Their website made no mention of it. 
Be good if they did, and made it a fully articulated head rather then teetering

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## R93

You would have to change the whole drive train and possibly the engine to modify them No?

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## Snowgrass

As a pure blade replacement I wouldn't think so but a redesigned head etc then more likely the drivetrain would have to be upgraded etc.

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## Smiddy

So does all this info that's been bought to everyone's eyes put people off flying in them?
My wife said "if I asked you to stop flying in Robbies would you?"
I said "probily not" so she never asked ha


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## Barefoot

> So does all this info that's been bought to everyone's eyes put people off flying in them?
> My wife said "if I asked you to stop flying in Robbies would you?"
> I said "probily not" so she never asked ha


Some of us stopped flying in them years ago.

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## norsk

> So does all this info that's been bought to everyone's eyes put people off flying in them?
> My wife said "if I asked you to stop flying in Robbies would you?"
> I said "probily not" so she never asked ha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes.

I won't get in one,this thread just made me more adamant that this attitude is permanent.

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## 199p

> Very similar conversation could be had regarding 4 wheel bikes. Used as per instructions they are great machines.


Yeah but where is the fun in that haha

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## veitnamcam

> So does all this info that's been bought to everyone's eyes put people off flying in them?
> My wife said "if I asked you to stop flying in Robbies would you?"
> I said "probily not" so she never asked ha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The 3 Time's I've flown in we have had way too much gear for a wee Robbie anyway.
I see the attraction  (price) For a solo trip to the tops tho.
Altho it's a bit like Helmets for motorbiking and the old saying "Get a cheap helmet if you have a cheap head"

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## outdoorlad

Depends on who is flying it?

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## R93

> So does all this info that's been bought to everyone's eyes put people off flying in them?
> My wife said "if I asked you to stop flying in Robbies would you?"
> I said "probily not" so she never asked ha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My wife made me promise never to get in one again and I won't. I used to own one and loved it. She was a grunty wee machine. 
It was destroyed by mast bump along with a damn good mate.


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## tetawa

> Depends on who is flying it?


"Richie"

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## 7mmwsm

> Yeah but where is the fun in that haha


You'll get old one day. Then you will find the words "fun" and "hurt" appear in the same sentence a lot more frequently.

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## H&K MAN

They are a piece of shit.With no structural integrity.Much Safer Walking...

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## WhistlingWings

Aviation Reports

The key lesson arising from this inquiry is that helicopter pilots must be fully aware that a condition of low-G (feeling of lightness or weightlessness) can result in: a rapid right roll; mast bumping; and in-flight break-up *before even the most experienced pilot can react and recover the situation*. Pilots need to fly in a manner that avoids low-G conditions rather than allow them to develop and then expect that they can recover from them.

Also, my concern is the construction and integrity of the blades.

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## Maxx

Some interesting parallels in some posts above with some of the more recent thinking and statements on workplace health and safety. Those of us in the forestry industry have all heard more than once recently the mantra ' you shouldn't die on the job just because you made a simple mistake....' and so have had to make changes to work practices and equipment to essentially protect people from each other and themselves.  Maybe that thinking is migrating into aviation (drivers and passengers) too?

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## Moutere

> interested in the input from pilots who may have  discussed it with other overseas pilots. Wondered if "pilot error" was being pushed there.


I haven't had anything to do with Robinsons for well over a decade and admit to being completely out of the loop with both the type and the NZ scene.
In 2004 I would have told you that when operated and maintained within the limitations of the Robinson manuals, they are an extremely safe and capable series of helicopter. I still run with that statement, however this thread has me questioning it pretty hard. There is obviously something going on here.

To answer your question Tetawa, this issue is not at the forefront of discussion in my wee corner of the industry, but it's prompted me to get talking. Those stats comparing the occurrence rates between NZ and the States would need to be broken down further to draw any hard conclusions that there is a 'New Zealand' aspect to the problem.

Eventually some poor sod will capture one on a GoPro, then there will hopefully be some hard facts to work with.

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## WhistlingWings

Watch: What is a Robinson helicopter


Interesting video for those who want to know more about Robinson rotor head design

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## TeRei

I spoke to my mate who did 2000 hours in his own R22 II on venison . His comment ...really.

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## nightowl52

Heard a joke some time ago.........How do you get yourself a Robinson helicopter? Buy 100 acres and wait.......!

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## Pengy

Heard a snippet on the radio a short while ago, saying that DOC were not happy with the Robinson safety record and were no longer going to use them for any doc work.

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## JoshC

Thats been the case for a little while now. Well down here anyway


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## R93

> Thats been the case for a little while now. Well down here anyway
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not just Robinson machines they're not using any piston driven helicopters.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

Interesting as old man just did a run on pigs and wallabies for DOC, in a Cabri. Does it only apply to work that involves their staff getting in the machine?

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## R93

> Interesting as old man just did a run on pigs and wallabies for DOC, in a Cabri. Does it only apply to work that involves their staff getting in the machine?


May be by district.
No piston helicopters used for Doc on the coast. I only got told last week by a fella that is always flying Doc around.
 @gimp might be a better source of info.

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## gimp

I don't know of any rule barring piston choppers in general for DOC, just Robinsons.

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## Maxx

> Interesting as old man just did a run on pigs and wallabies for DOC, in a Cabri. Does it only apply to work that involves their staff getting in the machine?



As  understand it is a national policy (though I hadn't heard about the exclusion of all piston engine machines until now), but it applies to DoC staff only.

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## Pengy

> As  understand it is a national policy (though I hadn't heard about the exclusion of all piston engine machines until now), but it applies to DoC staff only.


So they don't give a shit about contractors then  :Sad:

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## gimp

It also applies to volunteers, there was a fuss recently about some permolat volunteers not being allowed to use a R44 for some voluntary hut restoration work. If a contractor is considered a separate PCBU under the new act they may be able to use whatever helicopter they like? Not my area

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## R93

I took the fella at his word. He is a well known pilot here on the coast.
I did question him when he said piston helicopters as I also understood it was just Robinsons.
I could have misunderstood but apart from Robinson it only excludes the Huges 269 and Cabri as far as NZ goes.
Don't know of any other piston machine certified for ATO's

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## Ryan_Songhurst

As an aside old man reckons that the Cabri is an awesome shooting platform compared to a 22/44 shorter rotor span with the 3 blade head doesn't wallow through chop and more responsive in the tight stuff, much "safer feel" to it. Don't know what they are rated to with a hook as they were only doing search and destroy but doing some fallow soon.

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## outdoorlad

I believe it's Doc staff that aren't allowed "in" the Robbies. Some other govt organisations as well, like TB Free, etc

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## Huk

A very interesting thread thank you to all concerned :Thumbsup:

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## Sauer

R93 - quite a few years ago now, but a helicopter that I am sure had a piston engine crashed in a river bed west of Christchurch and I am pretty sure it was  an Enstrom. Was a long time ago though, so could be wrong. 

Organisation policy on aircraft engines is nothing new. I know plenty wouldn’t allow staff to travel in single engine fixed wing aircraft, and some required twin engine aircraft to be turbo-props

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## stug

New warning from Robinson - beware carrying passengers, they might distract you

Robinson Helicopter Co's passenger warning is 'bizarre', says expert - NZ Herald

Robinson Helicopter Company's warning about the risks of carrying a passenger is 'bizarre", an aviation safety expert told the Government.

The warning made by the helicopter company in a safety notice was possibly unique, John Fogden, director of the company Total Aviation Quality, told the Department of Conservation (DoC) in documents released to the Herald under the Official Information Act.

"I certainly haven't seen anything similar issued by any other helicopter (or fixed wing) manufacturer. To me it seems quite bizarre."

The safety notice warns that "carrying a passenger in and of itself increases risk because passengers add workload and distractions".

Fogden's take on it was that if the pilot was distracted by having a passenger, he may inadvertently fly the aircraft outside of its design limits, thereby inducing mast bump.

"Robinson seem to assert this 'risk' is because a passenger is on board and not in any way associated with a design fault of the helicopter."

Robinson helicopters make up 35 per cent of the New Zealand fleet but 49 per cent of accidents, 64 per cent of fatal crashes and all seven fatal mast-bump accidents.

The company has blamed many accidents on poor pilot training, while critics have contended the helicopter has a design flaw.

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## Konev

> New warning from Robinson - beware carrying passengers, they might distract you
> 
> Robinson Helicopter Co's passenger warning is 'bizarre', says expert - NZ Herald
> 
> Robinson Helicopter Company's warning about the risks of carrying a passenger is 'bizarre", an aviation safety expert told the Government.
> 
> The warning made by the helicopter company in a safety notice was possibly unique, John Fogden, director of the company Total Aviation Quality, told the Department of Conservation (DoC) in documents released to the Herald under the Official Information Act.
> 
> "I certainly haven't seen anything similar issued by any other helicopter (or fixed wing) manufacturer. To me it seems quite bizarre."
> ...


this is lawsuit protection in the USA, bit like the 'caution contents hot' on coffee cups. Same shit turned the Cessna 172 and 206 from work hourses to overweight shitheaps that cant do anything.

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## A330driver

Konev...so very true.....used to own a C-206G..Stationair .....it was a workhorse....the Hs Ive been told are what you say........shame really,





> this is lawsuit protection in the USA, bit like the 'caution contents hot' on coffee cups. Same shit turned the Cessna 172 and 206 from work hourses to overweight shitheaps that cant do anything.

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## Sideshow

Himmm Just read through this entire thread. Very interesting!
But the one thing that dose seem to crop up time and again is that maker wants to blame the pilot. 
Whos watched the movie Sully ?
That seems to strike a cord? He managed to land that plane on the Hudson and then got everyone off. They still tried to blame the guy at the controls. 
Conspiracy? Himmmm now passengers will distract you. Please all passengers keep your stick mags in the over head lockers so as not to spas out the pilot  :Wtfsmilie: 
Shit man.

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## A330driver

Sideshow...Interesting take....Sully made some huge mistakes....Read the NTSB Report......I flew for the same airline as “sully”...USAirways,he based in philly,me in Phoenix.....agreed,they did a great job with the final outcome,ie....no one died,only lost an airframe,.....I could bore you with some very fine politics about the “ miracle on the Hudson” .....a great PR scit for the FAA,USAirways,and the general yank public,....Airbus took a beating,some procedures never followed,a host of other “shit”.........they were bloody lucky...Period!.......I certainly get where you are coming from...outside looking in.......me...the inside looking out......

The pilot (just about)always gets blamed,the reasons,ha,count the stars....but major mistakes were made...you say,......well everybody survived...so true....I say,because I’m in the buisness,...he was lucky,me having the inside track and information the story is very different.....believe Hollywood all you like......this is not a sour-grapes post,this is a post of me knowing info you don’t...

To understand,you will have had to have flown the airbus,....he was close to retirement,but was retired”early”......to make a “hero”.....the yanks are good at doing that

....just look at how the AIRNZ crew were crucified with Erebus.....

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## Sideshow

Year cool no worries why let truth get in the way of a good story.
My point was the Pilot aways gets the blame. Some I'm sure it's justified but then I recon there must be a lot of others that don't add up.
As in some of these Robinson crashes.

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