# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Morrinsville Shooting

## Dermastor

Been watching the coverage of this story and  the media are hamming it up again, all the gleeful talk of a MSSA firearm being used. Is it just me or does all the damage to the police cars appear to be the result of shotgun blasts. If its not he must of been one heck of a shot to group that well at night on a windscreen with up to 10 rounds.

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## Shooter

> Been watching the coverage of this story and  the media are hamming it up again, all the gleeful talk of a MSSA firearm being used. Is it just me or does all the damage to the police cars appear to be the result of shotgun blasts. If its not he must of been one heck of a shot to group that well at night on a windscreen with up to 10 rounds.


Just you mate. Looks to be what they have said thus far 😉

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## Chur Bay

It would be interesting to see how he got it. If it is an AK.

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## Sidney

Good point though.  it looked like good grouping to me..  it was also left side of the police car... so if directed it appears that he wasn't aiming at the driver

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## Pengy

> Good point though.  it looked like good grouping to me..  it was also left side of the police car... so if directed it appears that he wasn't aiming at the driver


Well that's ok then. Thew. For one moment I thought someone tried to shoot a cop doing his duty  :Sad:

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## Marty Henry

His grouping seems a lot tighter than theirs.

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## Sidney

don't be a dick..  it was purely an observation

he might have been and his sights could have been out or ???... but it sort of appears that he might have known something about what he was doing as evidenced by the grouping

or he could have simply been aiming at at an empty??   passengers seat to stop someone chasing him..  who knows

its a bit more interesting than the normal incapable moron stuff is all...

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## Boaraxa

> don't be a dick..  it was purely an observation
> 
> he might have been and his sights could have been out or ???... but it sort of appears that he might have known something about what he was doing as evidenced by the grouping
> 
> or he could have simply been aiming at at an empty??   passengers seat to stop someone chasing him..  who knows
> 
> its a bit more interesting than the normal incapable moron stuff is all...


He,s a moron of the highest degree , with any luck he,l start waving his empty gun around

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## Pengy

> don't be a dick..  it was purely an observation
> 
> he might have been and his sights could have been out or ???... but it sort of appears that he might have known something about what he was doing as evidenced by the grouping
> 
> or he could have simply been aiming at at an empty??   passengers seat to stop someone chasing him..  who knows
> 
> its a bit more interesting than the normal incapable moron stuff is all...



Only one possible reaction to that post @Sidney. 
Fuck right off

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## Sidney

ur a petulant little child aren't u now....

don't infer crap from what others contribute without understanding what is being said and then get ur nose out when they are legitimately pissed off with you...

why don't your take your incomphrehension somewhere else ....  dick... I was right the first time

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## Pengy

Whatever. Reports state quite clearly that perp fired several shots at police car. This seems to be supported by news footage.
You then suggest that he knew where he was aiming and /or his sights may have been off.  Grouping or otherwise. He shot repeatedly at a police vehicle. 

You resorting to name calling suggests you may be hurting...dick

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## Sidney

"whatever" the generational response to not being able to understand...  lol

unlike yourself, I know the difference between a car and a person...

and in so far as hurtin is concerned...  u apparently aren't able to understand how that the interwebby can't actually do that... u  must spend too much time listening to John Campbell..

still hitting that dick standard fella

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## rockland

> His grouping seems a lot tighter than theirs.


Well said Sir  :Have A Nice Day: 

I thought the Police car looked like it had been hit with buckshot. When the media tell me "AK47" I expect to see anything from an SKS to a black semiauto duck gun.

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## Cordite

Pretty nasty incident, and posters being nasty to one another.  Cops now seen running round with MSSAs (what do they wan't high capacity mags, pistol grips and bayonet lugs for?).  Whatever!  I'm out of here. Good night, Kids.

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## Marty Henry

This may get me crucified but here goes. The speed which frontline police replied with small arms fire proves they are armed at all times, now if suitable training was mandatory as well we might not have this current 3 ring circus. Police firearms training appears to be woefully inadequate.

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## systolic

> This may get me crucified but here goes. The speed which frontline police replied with small arms fire proves they are armed at all times, now if suitable training was mandatory as well we might not have this current 3 ring circus. Police firearms training appears to be woefully inadequate.


I think there might be a difference between being "armed at all times" and having guns locked in a safe in the boot of a squad car.

The media releases say it was only when the second squad car arrived that police returned fire.

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## Maca49

> This may get me crucified but here goes. The speed which frontline police replied with small arms fire proves they are armed at all times, now if suitable training was mandatory as well we might not have this current 3 ring circus. Police firearms training appears to be woefully inadequate.


Marty they might be better with Black Powder arms, give them a smoke screen to hide behind? :Wink:

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## stug

I must admit I looked at the grouping of shots on the windscreen and felt he wasn't aiming at the policeman. If he could group that tight he could easily have shot the policeman.

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## Gapped axe

What if the Police car was 2up, did the shooter know there was only a driver. Kudos to the NZ Police risking their lives in the middle of the night for you, how many of you away from a computer board would do such a thing. It would of taken some skill to shoot a group like that or a fluke, either way he fired at police and the outcome for him may not be so good. Just hope that no more shots get fired at our brave Force or they get injured or worse. Be save and I hope for an good outcome soon, only a matter of time I guess as he will now be a Nigel no friends.

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## Trout

> What if the Police car was 2up, did the shooter know there was only a driver. Kudos to the NZ Police risking their lives in the middle of the night for you, how many of you away from a computer board would do such a thing. It would of taken some skill to shoot a group like that or a fluke, either way he fired at police and the outcome for him may not be so good. Just hope that no more shots get fired at our brave Force or they get injured or worse. Be save and I hope for an good outcome soon, only a matter of time I guess as he will now be a Nigel no friends.


+1 Who would want to be a copper,shot at while you sit in a car.Hope the mongrel waves his gun in their direction.Game over,save our taxs looking after the bastard.

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## ebf

> Good point though.  it looked like good grouping to me..  it was also left side of the police car... so if directed it appears that he wasn't aiming at the driver


Ah Sidey, already thinking of defence strategies ? Of course a single photo on the internet must mean you know exactly where the shooter stood, the angle at which the bullets entered the windshield and where they eventually ended up, right  :ORLY:

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## Sasquatch

The shooter may of been aiming at the driver but his shots grouped passenger side, how would any of you know unless you were detailing the crime scene???

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## Boaraxa

Someone told me a while back that the police get 30 rounds each to practice with for the year is that true ? glocks with a 9 pound trigger pull ?, in situations like this they should be able to unleash some serious fire power if they had of used a rocket launcher job done could have been sitting back at the social club drinking a well earned speights on Saturday night

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## R93

I was secretary for our pistol club for the last year and can only speak on what I have witnessed about police firearms training while in that role. 
I had to invoice them for use of our facilities.
I was also present on many of their range days but did my best to not get in the way.
I will say this. The members that use our range spend a lot of time using it and their trainers are top notch. I served with 2 of them in the military.

They do their best with what they have. Time and money appear to be their largest obstacles.

It is the bean counters that are responsible for any lack of training imo.

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## outdoorlad

I think you might be surprised at how many senior front line staff are carrying pistols on the job, a lady from work husband is a Sargent & she said he always carrys one now on nights duties. Scumbags hopped up on meth, etc aren't rational folk to deal with.

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## Paddy79

> Someone told me a while back that the police get 30 rounds each to practice with for the year is that true ? glocks with a 9 pound trigger pull ?, in situations like this they should be able to unleash some serious fire power if they had of used a rocket launcher job done could have been sitting back at the social club drinking a well earned speights on Saturday night


Surley 30 rounds is not true. Shit I use 100 rounds a week at pistol club

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## Sidney

> Ah Sidey, already thinking of defence strategies ? Of course a single photo on the internet must mean you know exactly where the shooter stood, the angle at which the bullets entered the windshield and where they eventually ended up, right



Nah...  it was purely an observation..  I drew no conclusions.  I just object to others drawing them for me.

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## Sidney

> I think you might be surprised at how many senior front line staff are carrying pistols on the job, a lady from work husband is a Sargent & she said he always carrys one now on nights duties. Scumbags hopped up on meth, etc aren't rational folk to deal with.


We were routinely carrying on CIB car duties in the early 80s....

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## gonetropo

Latest comments in stuff.co.nz


Police have said Heke is actively avoiding police and is known to have links to Hamilton, Auckland and Tauranga.

Rollie James Heke went on the run in March after cutting off his electronic monitoring bracelet.

He had several existing warrants to arrest for methamphetamine related offences and breaching bail conditions.

In December 2014, Heke, who was in Rimutaka Prison at the time, was involved in a major methamphetamine importing ring allegedly run from behind bars. 

In September 2016 he was wanted for breaching bail conditions.

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## Maca49

> We were routinely carrying on CIB car duties in the early 80s....


Yep I remember my brother in law with a pistol on his belt back then. Mine you my mates brother worked for the BNZ and he carried as well. Aaaaahhhh the good ole days!!

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## Cordite

10 tight shots on a windscreen sounds more like something from a semi-auto .22 than any "MSSA".  Or even a repeater CO2 airgun?  Anyone got an _informative_ link?

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## Cordite

> Someone told me a while back that the police get 30 rounds each to practice with for the year is that true ? glocks with a 9 pound trigger pull ?, in situations like this they should be able to unleash some serious fire power if they had of used a rocket launcher job done could have been sitting back at the social club drinking a well earned speights on Saturday night


Does not quite sound right but here is my training program for the resource strapped:
1. Learn to hold the gun tight in one hand (as you will anyway instinctively do in earnest situations), and to let off trigger without dropping the muzzle.
2. Then raise it, focus eyes on the target and not the front sight (as you will do in an earnest situation), and shoot the target centre mass.
3. Practice (2.) with the other 29 bullets.

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## chainsaw

hope he's still got the firearm when the cops catch up with him & he decides to point it at some one. Community does not need scum like this.  End of

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## Smartie

Definitely confirmed as a 7.62 so SKS, AK etc does it really matter? There is a lot to this situation and the comments about not aiming for Police do not stand up at all when you hear what actually transpired...I'm thankful that the Police involved directly in this incident got to go home to their family's.

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## gonetropo

> Definitely confirmed as a 7.62 so SKS, AK etc does it really matter? There is a lot to this situation and the comments about not aiming for Police do not stand up at all when you hear what actually transpired...I'm thankful that the Police involved directly in this incident got to go home to their family's.


more holes in the windscreen for an sks even with a 10 round mag. skk maybe? or norinco (etc) 56.
guarantee it was an illegal firearm looking at the shooters history

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## Pengy

The gun went off accidentally. He wasn't really shooting at the police. He had a hard childhood..etc etc  Just some of the bs likely to be put forward by a defence lawyer  :Sad:

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## Savage1

I wouldn't even comment on the grouping until I knew the distance from the shooter to the windscreen.

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## Bonecrusher

> The gun went off accidentally. He wasn't really shooting at the police. He had a hard childhood..etc etc  Just some of the bs likely to be put forward by a defence lawyer


I salute you on your empathy Pengy, with those less fortunate than youself

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## Russian 22.

> This may get me crucified but here goes. The speed which frontline police replied with small arms fire proves they are armed at all times, now if suitable training was mandatory as well we might not have this current 3 ring circus. Police firearms training appears to be woefully inadequate.


My uncle was in the police and he said that there's always one cops per x thousand number of people who carry on their person all the time. He also told me about the special tactical squad or something. That was quite interesting. Especially all of the military weapons they have.

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## Mooseman

Hopefully the police sort this A....hole at soon with no blood  spilled but his. I can see cries from the Anti's about further tighter gun laws for the likes of us.
Sucks every time something like this happens.

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## Sir David Henery

I had thought too.

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## northdude

how about the judges that continue to let these useless pieces of shit back out to just carry on offending theres no actual deterrant

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## Paddy79

It's the law makers that need to change the terms if punishment. judges can only hand sentences acording to the law.

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## Gapped axe

That's kinda true, the judges have a maximum to minimum penalty threshold to pick from to the  offence committed. they also take into account other mitigating issues. i.e. 1st/2nd offence ,is justice best served with the offender incarcerated or paying a service to the community. The judge DOES has the last say on the penalty balanced to the crime, and yes the wet bus ticket does seem to be the preferred option

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## Daggers_187

> My uncle was in the police and he said that there's always one cops per x thousand number of people who carry on their person all the time. He also told me about the special tactical squad or something. That was quite interesting. Especially all of the military weapons they have.


STG

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## Russian 22.

> STG


That's the  one

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## Jexla

> It's the law makers that need to change the terms if punishment. judges can only hand sentences acording to the law.


You seriously think that judges are being let down by low max sentences? What planet are you on?

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## wsm junkie

Interesting to see on Breakfast today they are no longer referring to it as a MSSA but a semi auto firearm.

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## Paddy79

They are let down by both the minimum and maximum sentences that they have to adhere too. I personally know 2 judges in this country who if they could would be dishing out far more severe sentences but they can not. The law does not allow them to.

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## Jexla

> They are let down by both the minimum and maximum sentences that they have to adhere too. I personally know 2 judges in this country who if they could would be dishing out far more severe sentences but they can not. The law does not allow them to.


No one is going to believe that.

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## Gapped axe

I do

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## Paddy79

12 weeks Burnham or the other option? Burnham was the wet bus ticket

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## Maca49

> I do


I accept!

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## Paddy79

If I ad my way minimum would be increased 3x  maximum 2x but then how do we pay for this? Tax increases that is how. What Govt in power is going to say on election year lets increase penalties but as a result there will be a tax increase? NONE that's how many. So judges sit there fiddling their fingers at sentences.

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## 223nut

> I accept!


Now we know what happened behind the woodshed at last year's Toby shoot  :Sick:

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## Nickoli

As New Zealand has seen many of our core services outsourced - both government and private sector, I suggest we outsource custodial sentences.....to China or Saudi Arabia.... we pay a "general living expense" for the criminal to be "looked after"....for life. The receiving country can then determine how the convict is treated  :Thumbsup:  We could even send them first class.... :Thumbsup:

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## northdude

In a bag the problem is in nz we care more about the offender and couldn't give 2 fuks about the victims

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## Macca

@Jexla out of curiosity, are you actually the woman portrayed in your profile picture? Or is it a guide to make people have a different perception of you to make your comments and arguments easier in ways? In no way am I trying to offend you, but you certainly don't act like the girl portrayed would.

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## stretch

> @Jexla out of curiosity, are you actually the woman portrayed in your profile picture? Or is it a guide to make people have a different perception of you to make your comments and arguments easier in ways? In no way am I trying to offend you, but you certainly don't act like the girl portrayed would.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Stone

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## Tommy

> @Jexla out of curiosity, are you actually the woman portrayed in your profile picture? Or is it a guide to make people have a different perception of you to make your comments and arguments easier in ways? In no way am I trying to offend you, but you certainly don't act like the girl portrayed would.


Macca, I most certainly am a 6 foot 2 black guy in  a yellow suit. Keep an eye out for me at the range, I had my tailor make me one for every day of the week, all different shades of yellow. That photo was taken on a Tuesday in case you were wondering ("woundering" for old mate Lee at DPS)

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## Moutere

> Macca, I most certainly am a 6 foot 2 black guy in  a yellow suit. Keep an eye out for me at the range, I had my tailor make me one for every day of the week, all different shades of yellow. That photo was taken on a Tuesday in case you were wondering ("woundering" for old mate Lee at DPS)


A Le Sape Congolese Dandy
https://youtu.be/W27PnUuXR_A

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## Cordite

> @Jexla out of curiosity, are you actually the woman portrayed in your profile picture? Or is it a guide to make people have a different perception of you to make your comments and arguments easier in ways? In no way am I trying to offend you, but you certainly don't act like the girl portrayed would.


Time for confessions and coming clear about our avatars.  Myself, I actually DO look like a look like a bundle of uncooked spaghetti in a metallic yellow sleeping bag.  When I get turned on I like to bang big-time, and I don't fire blanks!  But sometimes I'm slow to pick up on the cues or I don't get turned on at all -  conditions known medically as hangfire and misfire respectively - and either will ruin a Sunday morning.

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## tiroatedson

> @Jexla out of curiosity, are you actually the woman portrayed in your profile picture? Or is it a guide to make people have a different perception of you to make your comments and arguments easier in ways? In no way am I trying to offend you, but you certainly don't act like the girl portrayed would.


Not a unreasonable question...I have wondered my self at times...just out of curiosity 


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## Paddy79

your not bitching or bitched about how hard it is to find a rental are you though @tiroatedson , and security for a-cat does not have to incur any damage done to a property, but once you get endorsements you need the right security which will lead to holes in walls and floors for securing safe.

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## Paddy79

@ROKTOY I have 4 daughters I am raising on my own I am 38 and in 12 years ill be mortgage free

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## ROKTOY

> @ROKTOY I have 4 daughters I am raising on my own I am 38 and in 12 years ill be mortgage free


I'm honestly pleased for you, I chose not to get a mortgage, I could have several times over.

But if I was to make comment of the fact that it was hard to find a place to rent and have firearms, which is most likely an honest fact in a lot of places. Does ta make me a c@t?  I hope not, it is just me stating a fact. 
And again, well done and I take my hat off to you for raising your kids singlehandedly, I know it won't have been easy.

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## 308

It was obvious that the perp needed to be stopped by the fact that he had a personalised plate - a sure sign of a tosser in any language

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## Marty Henry

Thank you 308 back on track

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## jakewire

Ok, I've had a bit of a clean up, some peoples posts that are not offensive have been removed simply because they have a quote in them.
 Stick to the topic or not I don't care but less of the personal attacks gentlemen.

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## 223nut

Trying to see page 6 but this thread seems to be misbehaving.

Now I made a comment I can see it... Odd

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## Sideshow

Heard they caught this clown :Thumbsup: 
Also heard an interesting theory on the grouping.
It was from the police officer returning fire through his windshield.
Kind of makes sense as he would have needed to reach across to the get his gun out.
Hope his ears are ok :O O:

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## Maca49

You'd have to be joking? Surely no ones that dumb? But hey they're tried it before!! :Grin:

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## Sideshow

I don't know but if I was in a that situation I'd shoot back anyway I could.
I looked at one of the first photos of that cop car. Looks to be around 17 holes in the passengers sides window. Glock takes a 17 round mag. Also there lights where shining down the road to where the perpetrators car was. Perp would not have known and would have gotten his head down was returning fire was coming his way. Would also explain the grouping. 
Your only exposing your hand and the rest of your body is covered by the engine. If it got him to stop shooting and made him run away (which it looks highly likely) and give your body's time to also return fire then :Thumbsup: 

Also if you look at the bullet holes on the drivers side you can see the slight mark running up the window like a commit tail. That to me looks like the bullet skidded up the window. I'd say that was in coming fire. You won't get strike marks like that from inside the window angel is all wrong for that to happen.
Hope they give th perp a long stretch.

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## Sideshow

There's another photo on News Hub says "bullet holes in back window of car"
 :Wtfsmilie: 
Ok so apart from that being wrong! 
Would an SKS round (if that is what it was) go right through from front window and out the back?
Here the photo with article attached.
Police shootout in Morrinsville | Newshub

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## Savage1

None of those shots were fired from inside the car, those guys guys wouldn't have anywhere near enough time to get a gun and they were likely jumping out already to run down the fleeing driver on foot, they were all incoming. Far too many holes for an SKS, looks like a mag dump, and yes the shots would go right through if the angles were right. 

I don't know who gave you that theory, but it's not accurate.

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## Sideshow

Ok no worries. But have a look at that article   @Savage1 no bullet holes out the back window.
Just a theory that made sense based on the photo evidence.

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## Savage1

> Ok no worries. But have a look at that article   @Savage1 no bullet holes out the back window.
> Just a theory that made sense based on the photo evidence.


There is a photo somewhere of the offenders car as well, you can make some assumptions on the range and angles from those which might explain the lack of holes in the back windscreen. 

i would guess that the range was less than five metres and at a large angle.

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## Maca49

Shit 5 metres would be real scary!!whites of the eye stuff!! :O O:

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## Beavis

Bullets entering a windscreen tend to arc downwards, bullets leaving arc upwards for what its worth.

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## Sideshow

Five ten five hundred not nice. Yep white brown pants stuff alright.
Thanks for that @Beavis didn't know that.

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## Paddy79

Im just glad they caught the prick and that no cops or public were shot

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## Martin358

I didnt hear whether they had found the perps rifle.

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## gonetropo

what is he getting charged with. attempted murder or something "softer"?

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## Nickoli

...and are the charges escalated if the firearm wasn't recovered? 
If the firearm wasn't recovered.....it is still out there in the hands of like minded ar$ehole$.... - this should be an aggravating factor at sentencing and something the Police should be advocating: give us the firearm, or face harsher sentencing!! Where is the outrage of the Police Association and the feedback loop to the media if this is the case? - Please correct me if I'm wrong....

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## Trout

Pity he didnt walk out to cops with a gun pointed towards them,save us yrs of taxs.

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## Cordite

One would expect a charge of attempted murder, times however many cops were within 30 degrees left or right of any of his shots.  

Apart from proving insanity, his defense might be to forward reliable testimonials to the effect that he is a good shot and then draw attention to the fact no cops were shot.  

And it would certainly not hinder his case to surrender that firearm.

Either way, he must go away for a long time.

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## Cordite

> Pity he didnt walk out to cops with a gun pointed towards them,save us yrs of taxs.


Mate, no cops killed, no cop arrived home thinking about a person he'd killed, and Rollie Heke was caught.  No down-sides to that, and worth my tax dollars.

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## Nickoli

> Mate, no cops killed, no cop arrived home thinking about a person he'd killed, and Rollie Heke was caught.  No down-sides to that, and worth my tax dollars.


Disagree. How do you rehabilitate someone who thinks this behaviour is OK? Best thing for all involved: he takes himself out - saves some poor Police or AOS member wondering if they could have done more and saves taxpayer dollars. 
I'm all for rehabilitation and looking after people and all that feel good $hit, but as part of living in a functioning society; there is a social contract.... then consider he was already on home detention? This prick deserves everything he gets and then some...

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## Cordite

@Nickoli

I agree Heke deserves everything that he is getting.  But Heke did not kill anyone and so hardly deserves to die (though this could well have been an immediate consequence of his actions).  Those of us who really would go for disproportional punishments could get a building job in Saudi and get a feel for that kind of barbaric society.

And Heke will be locked up for the safety of others.  Whether he "rehabilitates" or not is a separate matter.

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## Nickoli

> @Nickoli
> 
> I agree Heke deserves everything that he is getting.  But Heke did not kill anyone and so hardly deserves to die (though this could well have been an immediate consequence of his actions).  Those of us who really would go for disproportional punishments could get a building job in Saudi and get a feel for that kind of barbaric society.
> 
> And Heke will be locked up for the safety of others.  Whether he "rehabilitates" or not is a separate matter.


 @Cordite - I have advocated before for outsourcing our "corrections" (I use the title with a massive grain of salt....) to be outsourced to China or Saudi Arabia: people like Heke deserve no less than a first class ticket on their way to such "rehabilitation." 
That no one was killed by this ar$eholes actions is a moot point: he has proven that he cannot abide by the social contract, his history has proven this...why take the chance? Chris Cahill wouldn't take the chance on law abiding firearms licence holders - let alone criminals (and has continued to focus on us) - someone with this level of disregard for the law gets what he deserves with no harm to others - so what? 
Genuine question by the way - take out the emotive crap with previous Police shootings... what right does a criminal have where a demonstrated disregard for the law and human life has been shown? A dog who attacked someone would be shown less leniency....what's the difference?

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## 308

Anyone who shoots at cops is fair game in my book

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## Tommy

Along the same vein.. This is the guy that tried to kill that cop the other night in the Coromandel. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100014714474610

Truly, what do you actually do with scum like this guy and Heke? How much misery has this cunt caused? How many properties burgled, people stood over, cars nicked etc? Putting the fucker in a hole where he can't fuck anyone else's life isn't a loss in my opinion.

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## Cordite

> @Cordite - I have advocated before for outsourcing our "corrections" (I use the title with a massive grain of salt....) to be outsourced to China or Saudi Arabia: people like Heke deserve no less than a first class ticket on their way to such "rehabilitation." 
> That no one was killed by this ar$eholes actions is a moot point: he has proven that he cannot abide by the social contract, his history has proven this...why take the chance? Chris Cahill wouldn't take the chance on law abiding firearms licence holders - let alone criminals (and has continued to focus on us) - someone with this level of disregard for the law gets what he deserves with no harm to others - so what? 
> Genuine question by the way - take out the emotive crap with previous Police shootings... what right does a criminal have where a demonstrated disregard for the law and human life has been shown? A dog who attacked someone would be shown less leniency....what's the difference?


   @Nickoli,

As you rightly say, Heke has shown disregard for human life, which is bad.  But once we take offense at that we cannot simultaneously think of treating a human like a dog.  The two are opposites.  Treating a human like a dog is disregard for human life.  Avoid that path with extreme prejudice.

In the end, what you feel about a human life vs an animal life is a philosophical, religious, origin type question that you have to consider and make up your mind about.  Only do step carefully if your conclusion is at odds with the law of the land (which is based on one kind of view).

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## Tommy

> @Nickoli,
> 
> As you rightly say, Heke has shown disregard for human life, which is bad.  But once we take offense at that we cannot simultaneously think of treating a human like a dog.  The two are opposites.  Treating a human like a dog is disregard for human life.  Avoid that path with extreme prejudice.
> .


So the options are:

1) Let this guy out, he reoffends again, we lock him up briefly, out again, ruins someone else's life, repeat (current tactic)
2) Park him in a cage (expensive)
3) Cheer when he checks out early. (win for everyone else)

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## Nickoli

> @Nickoli,
> 
> As you rightly say, Heke has shown disregard for human life, which is bad.  But once we take offense at that we cannot simultaneously think of treating a human like a dog.  The two are opposites.  Treating a human like a dog is disregard for human life.  Avoid that path with extreme prejudice.
> 
> In the end, what you feel about a human life vs an animal life is a philosophical, religious, origin type question that you have to consider and make up your mind about.  Only do step carefully if your conclusion is at odds with the law of the land (which is based on one kind of view).


  @Cordite: we are back to outsourcing our corrections to Saudi/China etc. 
I have no problem thinking of people like this as animals where they have proven to be dangerous to society, incapable of living within society and incapable of working with others productively. This piece of shit can be let out to hurt others as you seem to advocate (bit of a stretch, but based on his history and trajectory - completely fair) or can be removed from society with a first class (trade deal approved and certified) ticket to Saudi/China justice....hell - we could even pay a token living cost for this a$$hole - regardless of whether the subcontracting jurisdiction keeps the prick alive or not...
I don't see a downside? 
Please tell me you have an alternative argument...

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## systolic

> Along the same vein.. This is the guy that tried to kill that cop the other night in the Coromandel. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100014714474610
> 
> Truly, what do you actually do with scum like this guy and Heke? How much misery has this cunt caused? How many properties burgled, people stood over, cars nicked etc? Putting the fucker in a hole where he can't fuck anyone else's life isn't a loss in my opinion.


So much for being innocent until convicted in a court of law.

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## Cordite

> @Cordite: we are back to outsourcing our corrections to Saudi/China etc. 
> I have no problem thinking of people like this as animals where they have proven to be dangerous to society, incapable of living within society and incapable of working with others productively. This piece of shit can be let out to hurt others as you seem to advocate (bit of a stretch, but based on his history and trajectory - completely fair) or can be removed from society with a first class (trade deal approved and certified) ticket to Saudi/China justice....hell - we could even pay a token living cost for this a$$hole - regardless of whether the subcontracting jurisdiction keeps the prick alive or not...
> I don't see a downside? 
> Please tell me you have an alternative argument...


 @Nickoli

I'm totally with you on his trajectory.  And I reckon you will of course agree with me that after a score years in prison, if he does make it out, he will be older and probably not that healthy either (probably didn't care much about his cardiovascular risk factors during life on the outside).  Problem largely sorted of his own doing.

If Heke had been shot dead or sent into a wheelchair by a cop bullet, there would be no end of whingeing from various brown-skinned racist groups, inquiries, stress on the cop(s) for having shot a person (predictable mental stress) as well as Police internal investigations which will cause no end of mental wear on good men / women.  Every so often a journo would dig up another angle on that "Morrinsville Maori Shooting".  No end ever in sight... and you can't speak too badly about someone sitting in a weelchair, never mind someone deceased.  In short, good outcome it played out as it did with everyone alive and the matter being able to be dealt with efficiently through the courts.  Saying that, if anything like this happens in future I guess our cops may have quicker access to guns and the perpetrator will not be able to be brought before the courts.

In terms of alternative argument, the question you asked is whether to treat other humans like animals.  If you treat another human as an animal, you have downgraded your own human status to that exact same worth.  You're of the same race as Heke, so how you treat him paints a similar invitation on your own back.  Straight logic.

As for a solution, fairness IMHO means proportionality of punishment.  Judicial capital punishment for murder is proportional.  Vindictive punishment, like the stocks or cutting off thieves' hands is animal behaviour.  Mohammedan societies do not go for the proportionality concept enshrined in "an eye for an eye" and if you ask for a downside it would be pandering to such barbaric societies, by ever holding them up as good examples to follow!

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## Tommy

> So much for being innocent until convicted in a court of law.


Hi Lee,

3) is the bonus prize

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## Sideshow

Just had a confirmation that the officer did shoot back through his windshield.
Sure this will come out in the trial. But due to it bing an ongoing investigation those involved can't comment.

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## Ben-tard

> Just had a confirmation that the officer did shoot back through his windshield.
> Sure this will come out in the trial. But due to it bing an ongoing investigation those involved can't comment.


Does match up with the pic as you said previously, will be interesting to hear the details if/when they come out.

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## Sasquatch

> None of those shots were fired from inside the car, those guys guys wouldn't have anywhere near enough time to get a gun and they were likely jumping out already to run down the fleeing driver on foot, they were all incoming. I don't know who gave you that theory, but it's not accurate.


Going from what   @Savage1 said none of the shots were taken from inside the patrol car - Where did you source your confirmation  @Sideshow?

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## Sideshow

@Sasquatch as per my previous post I can't say!

But have a look at some of the photos of that police officers car.
If all those shots where in coming they would have broken more than just the front window. 
Also the strike marks are all wrong for incoming! The two impact holes above the stirring wheel are incoming as you can see from the comet like tails above the house holes.
Glass dose not lie it show you in which direction it was broken from.

Also if you look closely at this pic you would think that with incoming you would see impact marks on the seats.
Remember that the rounds would be tumbling by now our starting to mushroom so that head rest behind really should look a little worse for wear.

Yes it dose depend on the angles but then the back window would have broken if it missed the head rest.
Our the side windows.
From the photos shown in the media this has not happened.
Cheers  :Thumbsup:

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## Cordite

> @Sasquatch as per my previous post I can't say!
> 
> But have a look at some of the photos of that police officers car.
> If all those shots where in coming they would have broken more than just the front window. 
> Also the strike marks are all wrong for incoming! The two impact holes above the stirring wheel are incoming as you can see from the comet like tails above the house holes.
> Glass dose not lie it show you in which direction it was broken from.
> Attachment 74984
> Also if you look closely at this pic you would think that with incoming you would see impact marks on the seats.
> Remember that the rounds would be tumbling by now our starting to mushroom so that head rest behind really should look a little worse for wear.
> ...


  @Sideshow, @Sasquatch,

I count about seventeen bullet holes ahead of the front passenger seat.  Say...how many rounds in a Glock 17?

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## stug

Typical glock mag would be 17-19 rounds, can't remember exactly. More than 15 though.

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## Sasquatch

G17 standard capacity mags are 17 rounds. I don't know if NZ police are issues standard magazines though.

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## planenutz

Understanding what we now believe we know, it is very interesting to go back and read some of the first two pages of this thread. 

Hindsight, and all that.

Pays to keep your words soft and sweet - you never know when you might have to eat them.

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## Pengy

"understanding what we now believe we know" 

Think you may need to expand a little on that one  :Wtfsmilie:

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## Cordite

> "understanding what we now believe we know" 
> 
> Think you may need to expand a little on that one


Well, that thread ran out of fuel, I think mainly from a fact hose vacuum.  

Did anyone ever finally hear what type of "MSSA" the offender used.  Or was it an over-reported 10/22?

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## 223nut

> Well, that thread ran out of fuel, I think mainly from a fact hose vacuum.  
> 
> Did anyone ever finally hear what type of "MSSA" the offender used.  Or was it an over-reported 10/22?


10/22 could have been an e cat but I see your point  :Thumbsup:

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## Boaraxa

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...-pleads-guilty

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## Cordite

> https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...-pleads-guilty


So, an AK style semi-auto 7.62mm rifle, methamphetamine, and cops returning fire.  Yep, could have ended much worse than it did.

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## A330driver

Yup.....from that photo.......he’s the whanau of......Hone Heke for sure.....

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## systolic

IPCA Report here: https://www.ipca.govt.nz/Site/public...e-waikato.aspx

16 rounds from a 7.62mm rifle fired by Heke, 29 rounds returned by cops.

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## Maca49

Nothing deliberate then? Just a good, old fashion shoot out? And no one took a hit?

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## shooternz

Snipers they are not, Cowboys yes!

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## Cordite

> Snipers they are not, Cowboys yes!


Cowboys they are not.  Would have been a much higher casualty rate from 27 shots.

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## shooternz

Only if fired by John Wayne

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## Sideshow

From the official report. 

29. Officer C immediately reacted by aiming his pistol at Mr X and firing several bullets at him through the patrol cars windscreen. Officer C believed he discharged these bullets in three groupings, leaning down behind the dashboard briefly between each one.

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## Sideshow

Question what is a representative charge?
From the report?
47. On 6 July 2018 Mr X pleaded guilty to a representative charge of using a firearm against law enforcement officers.

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## Sideshow

From the report who fired what.
. Officers B and C collectively discharged a total of 29 9mm bullets at or in the direction of Mr X, nine of which are known to have hit the Holden on the driver’s side and windscreen. None of the bullets are believed to have hit Mr X (and he did not have any wounds or injuries when arrested 12 days later);
 Mr X discharged 16 .762mm bullets from his semi-automatic rifle.2 Of these:
o One bullet hit Officer A’s patrol car. It penetrated the rear passenger door and travelled through the front passenger’s seat, lodging into the inner passenger’s door. It is likely this bullet was fired when Officer A was driving up the driveway.
o Three bullets, which were aimed at Officer B and C’s patrol car, hit Mr X’s Holden. (Shot his own car)!
o Seven bullets hit Officer B and C’s patrol car including the driver’s door, front bonnet and windscreen. The bullets penetrated the engine bay, sump and the front windscreen, with one lodging in the dashboard in front of the driver’s seat.
o The remaining five bullets were not accounted for but are believed to include the initial shots fired at Officer A when Mr X first got out of the Holden.

Man bugger being in the middle of that lot good on the police for keeping safe and picking him up without anyone getting hurt, apart from the stress of incident.

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## systolic

> Question what is a representative charge?
> From the report?
> 47. On 6 July 2018 Mr X pleaded guilty to a representative charge of using a firearm against law enforcement officers.


https://www.justice.govt.nz/about/la...ing-documents/

Representative charges
*
A charge may be representative if multiple offences of the same type are alleged to have been committed in similar circumstances* and

the offences are committed over a period of time, and the nature and circumstances of the offences make it unreasonable for the complainant to particularise dates or other details of the offences
or
it is likely that the same plea would be entered by the defendant to all offences if charged separately, and it would be unduly difficult for the Court to manage the charges separately due to the number of offences.

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## Sideshow

Right so here’s the charge your a bad bugger off you go!

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