# Hunting > Game Cooking and Recipes >  Sourdough starter and bread making tutorial

## Friwi

Hi,
As promised on another post, I will write a tutorial on sourdough starter and bread making.

Starter:
3 ways of doing it:
1st: simply mixing two third of a cup with warm water and 1/3 with flour . 
Your water should be spring water or rain water but not town water containing chlorine as that will slow or even stop the development of the natural  yeast. Leave the mix into a large bowl somewhere reasonably warm. Top of cupboard should work. Do not cover it as the idea is to trap the natural yeast present in the air.

2nd method: mix 1/3 warm water, 1/3 of the juice of a squeezed orange ,1/3 flour. Expose into a bowl as mentioned above.

3rd method: get a handful of dried sultanas or raisins. Chop them in smaller pieces and mix with 2/3 Rd of a cup of warm water and wait for 1 hour. Drain the juice you get and save it to mix with 1/3 cup of flour. Again put into a bowl as mentioned above.

So in the three cases, we are exposing a little quantity of very wet flour to the environment where the natural yeast will start to develop. The advantage of using orange juice or the water juice from raisins is that a natural sugar is added to the mixture and does accelerate the fermentation. The ascorbic acid present in the orange juice helps a bit as well. And for the raisins they tend to have dried yeast on the outside of their shell as well.
The use of a brownish flower rather than a white flour helps to make for more interesting flavour. You can experiment with both white and brown in two separate starters if you wish to.

So I will carry on the tutorial tomorrow, but basically we are going to add a cup flour and cup of warm water to the starter once a day every day for the next three to five days.

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## ROKTOY

On the to do list, cheers.

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## stevodog

Thanks Friwi, will get onto that

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## Tankd

For those that are going to try this , this is not bread as you know it . Think of it as more of a cake , when it is warm it is more bread like . But when it has cooled it does not hold together very well because all of the gluten which holds it together has been removed and does not have that soft rubber texture .

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## gadgetman

What sized container is recommended to start with? The instructions give an indication it is going to get substantially larger.

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## Friwi

I started mine last night into a smaller dish. You can always poor it into a larger container as it goes on.

So today  ,I am going to add 1 cup of flour and one cup of warm water. Stir it well, and cover with film or a cloth the top of your container.
Translated from the French , it is called refreshing your starter.
What we are achieving is progressively feeding the yeast the complex sugars within flour and we are progressively getting the yeast to evolving and naturally selecting themselves to be more efficient at developing and reproducing into that flour environment.it is also the beginning of the fermentation stage where the Yeats is transforming the sugar into energy (heat) and CO2. The CO2 is what makes the bubbles into the bread.
Very little of the gluten is consumed by the yeast, if your bread crumbles it is because your flour is not right or the kneading process was not achieved properly.
You will see in the next few weeks, that your starter gets more and more efficient at consuming the flour and your bread will prove faster provided it is in the right environment ( temperature , moisture and atmospheric pressure to a certain extend all play a role in the dough proving)

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## Friwi

This is the link to bio grain . They produce some of the best flour you can get all Stone ground on French made grinding stones.
New Zealand Bio Grains Ltd. - Flours - Online Shop

This process is more gentle on the grain grinding and flour extraction and does not disturb the gluten the same way as on more modern cylinder grinding. Although the flour does not warm up during the process with the old grinding method.
It seems that people who are slightly gluten intolerant, can eat sourdough bread made with the older processed flour better than the more modern processed style white flour.

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## Moa Hunter

Sour dough fermentation uses bacteria as well as yeasts. The Bacteria digest the gluten and the yeasts are limited by the amount of sugar that is present. So sourdough bread is superior to modern yeast leavened bread from a health perspective because the bacteria have pre-digested the proteins that give us trouble, in the same way that yogurt is superior to milk because it is pre-digested by the lactobacillus. The downside is that the proving (rising) process is slower with SD.

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## hotbarrels

> Sour dough fermentation uses bacteria as well as yeasts. The Bacteria digest the gluten and the yeasts are limited by the amount of sugar that is present. So sourdough bread is superior to modern yeast leavened bread from a health perspective because the bacteria have pre-digested the proteins that give us trouble, in the same way that yogurt is superior to milk because it is pre-digested by the lactobacillus. The downside is that the proving (rising) process is slower with SD.


and the other down side ....... it tastes better so you eat more, and home cooked fresh bread DESERVES plenty of lovely butter (bad for the waist line)!

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## gadgetman

> and the other down side ......…. it tastes better so you eat more, and home cooked fresh bread DESERVES plenty of lovely butter (bad for the waist line)!


What's bad for your waistline may be good for mine.

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## gadgetman

Going to start on this tonight with a little luck. As the grandson of a baker I feel I should redeem myself for the fact I've never made bread. I've sort of done that for my father not being able to shoot, ... well at least by getting his granddaughter to shoot.

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## veitnamcam

> Going to start on this tonight with a little luck. As the grandson of a baker I feel I should redeem myself for the fact I've never made bread. I've sort of done that for my father not being able to shoot, ... well at least by getting his granddaughter to shoot.


Beer bread is about as quick and easy as bread gets.

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## gadgetman

> Beer bread is about as quick and easy as bread gets.


The first ingredient is not safe for me to work with.

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## 2post

I made this yesterday.
I have dried my sour dough starter as I was starting to eat too much bread.
Once every so often is enough for me, but Im looking forward to pictures of progress.
Good on you  @Friwi

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## stevodog

Do you have a dehydrator to dry your starter out?

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## gadgetman

Can you use Wholemeal flour?

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## jackson21

> Can you use Wholemeal flour?


Jeez don't ruin it!

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## Tankd

You can use pretty much any flour but some are better than others . If you have to much starter you can just freeze it or use it for pancakes or even for coatings of chicken etc .
      The fermentation removes / converts the Gluten so it is able to be used by the Celiacs / gluten intolerant lucky people . :Grin:

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## Tankd

> Attachment 134495
> I made this yesterday.
> I have dried my sour dough starter as I was starting to eat too much bread.
> Once every so often is enough for me, but Im looking forward to pictures of progress.
> Good on you  @Friwi


   so just as a question , Just how did you dry out the Starter , dehydrator ? , oven ? .
   The reason is I had not thought of using the starter as normal flour .

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## gadgetman

No sultanas, raisins or oranges, but chopped up and soaked some dates.



Added some standard flour for a kick off.



Bunged on the warm spot on top of my freezer in the office.

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## Friwi

Yes you can use wholemeal flour if you want.
Good idea to use dates. That should work fine.

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## veitnamcam

I started one this arvo....using town tap water, not ideal but have done it before and it went ok I just boiled it and left in a big open bowl to cool and evaporate.
Will see what happens, no better time to do this than now.

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## 2post

I spread some of it out on some plastic film and left it on the bench over night. It takes as long to revive as stating a new one so I would only recommend it if you’ve had your stater for a long time and it’s become special.
 @gadgetman yes whole meal is what I use, I’d follow @Friwi advice though.

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## hotbarrels

You can use honey as well in your starter and it is full of natural yeasts.  That's how traditional mead starts if fermentation.

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## veitnamcam

Not much going on in there this morning but I think it was too cool inside,topped up flour and water and left covered in the sun for a few hours and its off and racing with plenty of bubbles.

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## spada

Good to see the interest in this topic. But be Warned it's as addictive as the black art of reloading.
Here are some links I've found useful.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7e...MdiNYJg/videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJEHsvW2J6M&t=195s

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRK...u44Uzvw/videos

and a couple of my attempts

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## veitnamcam

Well as the supermarkets have flour but no yeast its going to be the go to bread!

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## gadgetman

Think I'll have to start again. Had a big drop in temperatures so freezer not having to work much so was warm surface was stone cold.

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## 2post

> Think I'll have to start again. Had a big drop in temperatures so freezer not having to work much so was warm surface was stone cold.


Don’t give up, only start again if it goes furry.

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## gadgetman

> Don’t give up, only start again if it goes furry.


It's separated with flour at bottom and liquid on top. No signs of life at all. Looks almost as dead as a politicians cranial cavity.

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## spada

> It's separated with flour at bottom and liquid on top. No signs of life at all. Looks almost as dead as a politicians cranial cavity.


Cold shouldn't kill it it just slows the process down heaps. 
Make sure you are feeding it 50/50 flour to water by weight not volume other,wise you will have too much water.

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## Friwi

[QUOTE=spada;975033]Good to see the interest in this topic. But be Warned it's as addictive as the black art of reloading.
Here are some links I've found useful.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7e...MdiNYJg/videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJEHsvW2J6M&t=195s

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRK...u44Uzvw/videos

Plenty of good tips in there. I did not realise how much the information on making sourdough bread was available out there.

Gadgetman, keep on feeding flour to your liquid and keep it warm and it is going to get there eventually.

You will notice that after a couple of weeks of regularly making bread and refreshing your starter it will activate better and faster.

Remember that as we are going toward winter months, the ambient temperature gets colder and the bread don't rise as fast.

Mine starts to gently bubble up as well but needs a few more days to get up there.

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## Friwi

There is the option to make a dryer sourdough starter if you want.
The one I was using professionally was 2 of flour for 1 of water by weight( 50% hydration). And you can go up to 200% hydration .
In high hydration environment there is an increase of the lactic acid and in a dryer environment it is an acetic acidity that develops.

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## gadgetman

Looking lifeless, but will keep feeding it.

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## veitnamcam

> Looking lifeless, but will keep feeding it.
> 
> Attachment 134733


Dump a bit of flour on top and stir it in while in a sink of warm to hot water, get the glass up to warm to touch like a good woman in a cold bed and stir til mix is warm cover and put up high (warmest place in house).
 once going warmth is not so much of an issue.

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## gadgetman

> Dump a bit of flour on top and stir it in while in a sink of warm to hot water, get the glass up to warm to touch like a good woman in a cold bed and stir til mix is warm cover and put up high (warmest place in house).
>  once going warmth is not so much of an issue.


That's what I did, figured it was probably 'drowning' under liquid. She's away.

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## Friwi

Mine is not taking off very fast either. I keep feeding it twice a day and hope to be able to make a loaf this week end. Keep record of how much flour you put in, as it will be used to calculate the quantity of salt required for the recipe.

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## veitnamcam

Impatient or just bored I went with a dry dough mix from one of those links today.
Suffice to say my dough handling skills are well short of that guys and I lack suitable equipment.


My starter was going ok but probably could have had a few more days.






Tryed a new to me method and while it looks great I think the combination of not quite ready starter and cool ambient temperature I didn't get as much rise as I would have liked.
Will cut in the morning when cool for a look.

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## madjon_

Could've done with 5 mins more.

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## stevodog

Nice loaves guys. My starter is cranking now, ill feed it this morning and mix this arvo.

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## veitnamcam

Also if you end up with lots of starter dont discard it, fry it up like a pikelet its delicious!

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## Friwi

I must admit that my starter is really struggling at the moment despite feeding it twice a day. Hence why have not wrote much about it.
I ll try a mix this avo and see how it goes.
The sourdough mix can be used to make pan cakes as well.
Don't forget the salt, about 2% of your total flour weight( sourdough flour and bread flour combined).

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## john m

First loaves from the sourdough starter.

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## Micky Duck

rightho...whats the recipe/how to proceed from here to loaf of bread please......

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## veitnamcam

> rightho...whats the recipe/how to proceed from here to loaf of bread please......


Have a look at some of those utube links Micky Duck.

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## Micky Duck

yeah.....old school wanted a written script to follow...will look tomorrow.

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## spada

> rightho...whats the recipe/how to proceed from here to loaf of bread please......


Here you go https://fgbc.dk/38p the loaf I posted (#27) first was made with this formula.

Hint 
Make sure your starter is really active (bubbly) before starting.

develop your gluten so that it passes the window pane test.

Retard the rise by proofing in the fridge overnight

Cook really hot with steam for first 15 mins straight from the fridge

The site I've given the link for is a great calculator for budding bread-men/persons

Good luck

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## Moa Hunter

> Attachment 134949
> Could've done with 5 mins more.


Years ago when I was a young fella I baked the bread every weekend for a bakery and hot bread shop in ChCh. To prove (rise) the loaves we used a small freezer panel room with submersible elements stuck in buckets of water to made a bread sauna / steam room. madjon's is the best proved bread here, with a thin crust and well distributed air bubbles. It must have been at exactly the correct balance between slack ( too wet ) and tight ( too dry ) this has nothing in common with grading fannys by the way. At home putting the bread tins in a roasting dish with some warm water ( 35 ish degrees )  and the lid on works very well. A sour dough probably wont need that as it is more a yeast dough method, however if the sourdough needs a boost that trick will do it

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## Projects

Been a nice read this topic. It really makes me want to try a bread starter. I made some awesone ham, cheese & onion scones today. I've been baking cakes with the kids daily. But i found this rewana bread recipe online. Thought someone might like this to try. Its a potato bug/starter.

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## Moa Hunter

> Been a nice read this topic. It really makes me want to try a bread starter. I made some awesone ham, cheese & onion scones today. I've been baking cakes with the kids daily. But i found this rewana bread recipe online. Thought someone might like this to try. Its a potato bug/starter. 
> Attachment 135154


Interesting,that recipe is from back in the days before commercial bread yeast became available although the temps have been changed from Fahrenheit. All the bakers used to make their own 'potatoe yeast in a drum just like in the recipe and keep it going. They would just ladle out liquid from the drum into the dough.

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## Projects

That's interesting to know. For me growing up visiting my nan's whanau there would always be a fresh rewana bread and i remember a container in the hot water cupboard and kitchen that had a 'potato bug in it'. As a little kid a bug living in a container was an odd thought. But i later understood it was a bread starter.

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## Friwi

The results of my first trial. I have some serious issues with my starter and the flower I am using. It has a very weak gluten structure.
That bread is going to be as dense as a brick.
I ll try another one as soon as I can put my hand on some descent flour. I am very disappointed by myself .

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## hotbarrels

I did two loaves in the WFO yesterday using different methods.  The first one is shown in the pizza oven threat https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....tml#post982275, and this is the other one, both cooked at the same time.

Both these loaves were hand mixed, one as the no kneed method, and the other with the folding method.  Both were super wet, >80% hydration  (too wet for me to handle and I had to add a small amount of dusting flow to get to something I could work with).
For the dough that was folded 5-6 times, I autolysed the flour and water for 2 hours before adding the starter and salt.  Man what a difference in the strength of the dough. Highly recommended.

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## hotbarrels

Here's todays loaves.

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## Dicko

Thats impressive!

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## Friwi

Decent

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## veitnamcam

My starter finally got going good then went funky so I discarded and started again...... waiting for it to get going good.

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk

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## hotbarrels

Put four in the oven this morning after an over night ferment in the fridge at 4 degC.  Two were with 25% Rye meal and two were with 25% whole meal flour.  The rye meal definitely had less spring due to rye having no gluten.  Kids got into them before I had a chance to get a photo - one is missing.

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## Kiwi Sapper

> ....The results of my first trial. .............It has a very weak gluten structure............I ll try another one as soon as I can put my hand on some descent flour. I am very disappointed by myself .


The gluten content of NZ flour is all over the place like a mad woman's droppings and trying to get information on the % content per 100 gramms is like trying to get rid of a Show Pony. I have been told that the gluten content per 100 grms of WHITE flour which produces well, is 14%

IF I AM TO BELIEVE what I have been told after many questions, Countdown High Grade Flour is 11%, standard 10.9% and Pams High Grade 9%.....Yes, I know but I can only ask .I suspect the Count Down figures to be more accurate than Pams as I was told that they had never been asked for their gluten content.
 I just boost gluten content of the flour required in the recipe by adding gluten flour, (Countdown and New World)



. ie  If the recipe calls for 1200 grms  of flour and I am using Countdown HG which is 11% gluten per 100 grms, with a shortfall of 3 grms of gluten per 100 grms of flour, then I calculate 12 x 3 = 36 and reduce the flour by 36 grms and replace it with 36 grms of gluten flour.

Rough and ready but it works for me,,,,,,,,,,,,so any experts out there, don't bother telling me I'm all wrong.

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## Friwi

Countdown has a bread and pizza doe flour that works pretty well. 
I have done 80% hydration, it is very sticky but the bread did turn up very well.

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## homebrew.357

I have a bread maker but when its finished baking it`s a hell of a job to get the loaf out of the backing tin, so just use the dough setting. When it`s ready into a baking tin or in this case a cake tin, my wholemeal cake bread, delish with lashings of peanut butter.  :Have A Nice Day: .
, It`s all gone.

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## 2post

> The gluten content of NZ flour is all over the place like a mad woman's droppings and trying to get information on the % content per 100 gramms is like trying to get rid of a Show Pony. I have been told that the gluten content per 100 grms of WHITE flour which produces well, is 14%
> 
> IF I AM TO BELIEVE what I have been told after many questions, Countdown High Grade Flour is 11%, standard 10.9% and Pams High Grade 9%.....Yes, I know but I can only ask .I suspect the Count Down figures to be more accurate than Pams as I was told that they had never been asked for their gluten content.
>  I just boost gluten content of the flour required in the recipe by adding gluten flour, (Countdown and New World)
> 
> Attachment 137784
> 
> . ie  If the recipe calls for 1200 grms  of flour and I am using Countdown HG which is 11% gluten per 100 grms, with a shortfall of 3 grms of gluten per 100 grms of flour, then I calculate 12 x 3 = 36 and reduce the flour by 36 grms and replace it with 36 grms of gluten flour.
> 
> Rough and ready but it works for me,,,,,,,,,,,,so any experts out there, don't bother telling me I'm all wrong.


I bought some before the lockdown because they only had standard flour, works a treat.

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## Dicko

Kiwi Sapper,

You are spot on. There is no such thing as 14% flour in ANZ unless it is fortified with gluten or bread improver which is a gluten mix.

Very little of our wheat makes 13% protein. Most flour is made from AH, ASW grade wheat or a blend to get 11-12% protein max. 

Pasta and Pizza bases are  made from Durum wheat flour. Durum is different to bread wheat and its flour does not bake as well. Different protein matrix in it.

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## Kiwi Sapper

> I have a bread maker but when its finished baking it`s a hell of a job to get the loaf out of the backing tin, so just use the dough setting.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.


I use this option  as a short cut if I'm lazy and can't be bothered  with kneading but wanting a reasonable shape and a large size loaf WITHOUT  A HOLE IN IT'S BOTTOM when the paddle is ripped out.

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