# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  300 Rum Brass Cases

## Kiwi Greg

Late last year I tested some 300 Rum brass, trying to find "better" brass for the 338 Edge.

I got some Federal, old Remington, new Remington, Bertram, Nosler & Norma.

It was interesting.

The Federal was the smallest in diameter & the Bertram was the largest, therefore had less to grow to fit the chamber.

The Federal "lost" its primer pocket first & the Bertram last, The Bertram was showing bad pressure signs before the primer pockets got loose.

The Nosler/Norma was second softest after the Federal, then the Bertram, then the Remington.

I decided that I would continue to use the Remington over the Bertram & wasn't interested in using the Nosler/Norma even though it is very nice brass with thick necks great for turning, but price & primer pocket longevity were against it.

The Nosler/Norma is the same brass in this case, the same weight, diameter, neck thickness, capacity & head section.

It looks from the sectioned cases that the Norma 300 Rum brass has the same head structure/design as the New Blaser Magnum cases.

This makes sense as Norma can use the same tooling to make both.

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## L.R

So what your saying is that anything built on a blaser mag case will have shit brass life?  Seems like the only reason you have posted this now.

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## Kiwi Greg

> So what your saying is that anything built on a blaser mag case will have shit brass life?  Seems like the only reason you have posted this now.


So you are saying Norma brass is shit ??

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## L.R

No your saying its longevity is poor. I use it quite a bit and don't have any issues with it if its loaded to a reasonable level.

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## Kiwi Greg

> No your saying its longevity is poor. I use it quite a bit and don't have any issues with it if its loaded to a reasonable level.


I was talking specifically about 300 Rum brass because that is what I tested.

Yes its longevity can be poor if you load it to get the same speeds as other brass, say Lapua in 338 Lapua Mag for instance.

As I said it is very nice brass, in the 338 Edge I believe there are better choices, it won't stand up as well as Remington.

Yes it will last very well if loaded to a reasonable level, but so will all brass, if it doesn't it wasn't loaded to a reasonable level for that particular brass in that particular case.

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## scoped

so norma are making brass for nosler?

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## L.R

If you were talking specifically about Rum brass why did you reference the blaser mag brass at the end? You obviously haven't played with any of it, and you know that Abe's new wingman is based off it. Seems the whole post was just about trying to get a dig in about the wingman brass.

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## Kiwi Greg

> so norma are making brass for nosler?


That is the general concensus, but I am talking about 300 Rum brass.

300 Rum Norma Brass is *exactly* the same as 300 Nosler Brass that I tested, except for the headstamp.

Same weight, capacity, neck thickness, head diameter, velocity & pressure indications for given powder charge, same head dimensions when sectioned.

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## Wildman

> If you were talking specifically about Rum brass why did you reference the blaser mag brass at the end? You obviously haven't played with any of it, and you know that Abe's new wingman is based off it. Seems the whole post was just about trying to get a dig in about the wingman brass.


Be careful L.R. You're the one putting words in peoples mouths here. If you start a shit fight I will delete your posts. If you have evidence to the oppisite of what KG has presented then by all means publish it and contribute to the discussion.

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## L.R

What am I being careful of mate? 
You guys delete anything that is posted that doesn't suit you and your mates anyway. 

I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth, I'm simply questioning KG on his TRUE intent of his post.

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## veitnamcam

Why does the post have to have "intent" ?

Reading too much into it .

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## Wildman

> What am I being careful of mate? 
> You guys delete anything that is posted that doesn't suit you and your mates anyway. 
> 
> I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth, I'm simply questioning KG on his TRUE intent of his post.


You're assuming his "true" intent is what you percive it to be. If there were references published by KG that were directed at Abe then I would say the same to him.... Abe is a big boy and if he dissagrees with what KG has posted he too can post his points of view and any evidence to support it. Your first question is fine, albeit a bit blunt. Play the ball, not the man.

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## L.R

Then why is there a reference to 300 blaser mag? A Caliber that no one has had fuck all to do with.  Seems like a obvious dig to me. 
I'm sure Abe can stand up for himself, only problem is every time he does he gets the DELETE threats too.

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## tui_man2

> Then why is there a reference to 300 blaser mag? A Caliber that no one has had fuck all to do with.  Seems like a obvious dig to me. 
> I'm sure Abe can stand up for himself, only problem is every time he does he gets the DELETE threats too.


+1 
It's about 300 rum brass why even talk about blaser brass?

It would be like me going wank wank 284 lapua brass and Winchester but oh don't forget 17hmr brass. . . . . . .

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## R93

Dunno why you guys are arguing over anything Blaser. I got a pm yesty pointing out that owning a blaser, is just owning an over engineered status symbol :Thumbsup:  LMFAO

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## Wildman

> Then why is there a reference to 300 blaser mag? A Caliber that no one has had fuck all to do with.  *Seems like a obvious dig to me*. 
> I'm sure Abe can stand up for himself, only problem is every time he does he gets the DELETE threats too.


Assumptions is the mother of all fuckups.

Seems like a fair enough observation to says something is the same as something else? I see you have also put forward your point of view  in another post so why go make this personal?

Time to grow up and learn to play nicely is all I am saying...

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## Wildman

> +1 
> It's about 300 rum brass why even talk about blaser brass?
> 
> It would be like me going wank wank 284 lapua brass and Winchester but oh don't forget 17hmr brass. . . . . . .
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2


No it wouldn't you would need totally different tooling, you should know that.

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## tui_man2

> No it wouldn't you would need totally different tooling, you should know that.


I know this but if he had seen a blaser case it is different enough not to be able to use the same tooling anyway :Have A Nice Day: 

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## Wildman

> I know this but if he had seen a blaser case it is different enough not to be able to use the same tooling anyway
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2


Well that might be a good point to contribute to the conversation, no?

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## tui_man2

> Well that might be a good point to contribute to the conversation, no?


It would, but it's also funny letting people go on like they know an can compare it to something when it's quite different :rolleyes:. So it is like comparing what I said . . . . . So as Luke said it's a wined an has not point been there what so ever

Even more so when 300 rum brass was in the said test.. . . . . . , . . 

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## L.R

Wildman you are fueling the argument yourself mate. Why don't you just fuck off and let the thread roll.

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## Wildman

Abe if there is no point then why respond? If you think it is a wind up, why respond? If you think something is wrong , by all means point it out but don't make it personal please. 

Luke (I just learnt your name by the looks) it might be time to grow up buddy? I'm not fuelling the argument, I'm trying to keep the debate clean. You seem to be intent on  dragging it down to a shit fight. I am just trying to do my bit to keep this forum clean and tidy for al the other people who read it so it doesn't become a jelly wrestling pit for a few kids, fair enough?

I would do exactly the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

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## scoped

you guys.. haha!

it looks to me like he is trying to find differences between his brass that he has that is all. Get over it

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## tui_man2

I'll let it be them mate see where it goes. I don't really care if it is a wined personally. It was a forum post so was adding to the conversation  :Have A Nice Day:  I was even been nice :thumbup: :Grin: 

Back to the original post on 300 rum brass. . . . . . . . . . . 


There's a reason primer pockets give out . . . . . . . . 

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## L.R

What is that reason Abe tell me.....

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## Neckshot

I was looking forward to learning some more on these cases,Greg was simply doing comparrisons for people to look at like he dose with most of his post like the scope comparrisoms
It seems to me LR you should fuck off!!! not the moderators, I didnt read anything that had your name in it your not as special as you beleive yourself to be tiger!.good on you for fucking with this thread ya twit!.

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## dogmatix

Seems like a group hug is in order.  :Psmiley:

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## BRADS

> I was looking forward to learning some more on these cases,Greg was simply doing comparrisons for people to look at like he dose with most of his post like the scope comparrisoms
> It seems to me LR you should fuck off!!! not the moderators, I didnt read anything that had your name in it your not as special as you beleive yourself to be tiger!.good on you for fucking with this thread ya twit!.


Boom that man needs a beer :Beer:  :Beer:  :Beer:  :Beer:  :Beer:

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## Wildman

> I was looking forward to learning some more on these cases,Greg was simply doing comparrisons for people to look at like he dose with most of his post like the scope comparrisoms
> It seems to me LR you should fuck off!!! not the moderators, I didnt read anything that had your name in it your not as special as you beleive yourself to be tiger!.good on you for fucking with this thread ya twit!.


Now now don't make me put the shoe on the other foot, or better yet, take my jandel off...

Anyone object to me tidying this thread a bit?

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## L.R

Your right neckshot I'm not special....but you sure are. 

Honestly if you guys can't see KGs post as a dig at Abe's wingman you need to wake up!

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## Sidney

And you need to learn that the best way to minimise the effect of a dig is to ignore it

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## Toby

> Seems like a group hug is in order.


R93 will like that

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## Link

> Now now don't make me put the shoe on the other foot, or better yet, take my jandel off...
> 
> Anyone object to me tidying this thread a bit?


Please don't  :Grin:

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## Spanners

I spose this is time for Hitler to jump in..

L.R. - you can now join the group of those that have to play nice.
If you want to make something out of nothing - then here's your membership card. 

If you don't understand the principals behind the group you can ask those in it or PM me.  

It's not once sided or playing favorites as you will find those in the 'club' all got the same message. 

Cut the petty shit out between the 'teams'
Everyone else involved seems to grasp the idea to date - you can too I hope. 

Ill now goose step off to the fridge for another beer...

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## tui_man2

I'll contribute nicely to this thread now I just got back from a wee play. . . 

I got given a 338 edge to have a fiddle with after it wasn't performing so well. . . . . It had nice components and was put together well who ever done it, all I done was true it up (action, grind the recoil lug etc), re space it to suit and give it the once over, bedding was good had 2thou in it rings where straight etc after loading up his 'pet load' he was given up the range sight in 2 shots and fuck this. . . . . . . . 

Told him I would give it my special treatment. . . . . .here is same components and 4gr MORE powder them before for a extra 120ft


Don't worrie about creators to much as rem actions firing pin holes are always bit big.

Is this the rem brass is comment?

Top photo is 12thou head expansion. . . . 
Bottom is 1 1.5 over 30 rounds.

For sake of it pet load was 96gr, 2225, 215 primer, otm seated at 3.97" 

New load is same but 100gr an 4.05"

Looking forward to comments and thoughts?


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## Spanners

Hmmm. Lost me ?!?

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## Cyclist

Just gotta get it off my chest....   Wingman is a gay name for a chambering, Blasers are for pussies and only bogans own .300 Rums 

There, ive said it

 :Melt:

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## Kiwi Greg

> Just gotta get it off my chest....   Wingman is a gay name for a chambering, Blasers are for pussies and only bogans own .300 Rums 
> 
> There, ive said it


Ive only got one 300 Rum & it won't be that for long.

When its gone am I still a Bogan or is that a given with the munber of 338 & 375s I have  :Thumbsup:

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## R93

> Just gotta get it off my chest....   Wingman is a gay name for a chambering, Blasers are for pussies and only bogans own .300 Rums 
> 
> There, ive said it


So what are you trying to say?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

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## Spanners

> So what are you trying to say?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!


That real bogans have 30 cals!!
Where's my iron maiden tee??

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## tui_man2

No experts to the above?:confused:

I would say the pet load would be hard on primer pockets to. . . . . . Finding harder brass is trying to hide anything push the fact something is bloody hot and pushing beyond what it should. . . . ..

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## baldbob

> No experts to the above?:confused:
> 
> I would say the pet load would be hard on primer pockets to. . . . . . Finding harder brass is trying to hide anything push the fact something is bloody hot and pushing beyond what it should. . . . ..
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2


Y were u already shooting that load abe? We already. Know thats a hot load.. 94gn is about max with the edge with 2225 itspikes very quickly in the 338 edge.. you should know that!!! You also have to back off a fair bit from shown pressure if you want to get any caselife at all with your brass.. what looks to be a fairly safe load can actually be quite high pressure it just doesnt show!!! You can get over 3000fps with n570 too but while it looks ok its really not!!!
Must be something to do with the hard remington brass? Large chamber dimensions pushing a big bullet? Maybe the pressure is diverted out through the larger surface area of the chambering making it harder to see???

What speed did u get to with 869? 3000 as well?

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## stug

Abe, my take would be, by extending the length of the loaded round you have increased the volume in the case and therefore reduced pressures.

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## stug

Here is a link to a Brian Litz article which is good http://www.bergerbullets.com/wp-cont...13/03/COAL.pdf

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## R93

> No experts to the above?:confused:
> 
> I would say the pet load would be hard on primer pockets to. . . . . . Finding harder brass is trying to hide anything push the fact something is bloody hot and pushing beyond what it should. . . . ..
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2


Not sure where you're going here. A hotter load with less pressure? It has been AI'ed (improved in length or capacity) or it has been fired down a smooth bore :Grin:  You have increased OAL by 8 thou so I cant see that being a major diff?
But I dont use big homo guns so wouldnt know if it is possible.
Whats the point your trying to make. I am a bit lost.

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## tui_man2

Point is if a said chamber is 'warm' in some brass and burning out pockets Wtf is finding harder brass going to do? Hide the fact it's 'warm' for x speed ?

Next point is by changing a few things 'simular' to edge +p. . . . . The pressure can be dropped. . . . . . Charge can go up safely .. . . . . . . An speed increases naturally. 

I said tweaked, never said what I done. The loads where given to me, I fired it to see first hand. . .. . An modified after, I was putting the facts up of what was found an what it went to. . . . .Or do I hide that info?

I don't run any 338s personally either :Have A Nice Day: 




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## L.R

> Not sure where you're going here. A hotter load with less pressure? It has been AI'ed (improved in length or capacity) or it has been fired down a smooth bore You have increased OAL by 8 thou so I cant see that being a major diff?
> But I dont use big homo guns so wouldnt know if it is possible.
> Whats the point your trying to make. I am a bit lost.


It's 80 thou longer Dave not 8. So it is significant.

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## R93

> Point is if a said chamber is 'warm' in some brass and burning out pockets Wtf is finding harder brass going to do? Hide the fact it's 'warm' for x speed ?
> 
> Next point is by changing a few things 'simular' to edge +p. . . . . The pressure can be dropped. . . . . . Charge can go up safely .. . . . . . . An speed increases naturally. 
> 
> I said tweaked, never said what I done. The loads where given to me, I fired it to see first hand. . .. . An modified after, I was putting the facts up of what was found an what it went to. . . . .Or do I hide that info?
> 
> I don't run any 338s personally either
> 
> 
> ...


Wasnt a dig bro. I was just lost in your description. I am with you now :Wink:  We did it with my wee spud gun and it was an amazing the diff in pressure but I never gained much in speed. Maybe another powder?. :Thumbsup:

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## tui_man2

I'm not very good at explaining what I mean via writing i know what I mean but it never comes out right, I should just stick with letting my hands do the work.

It was simular Dave to this at this is little different again :thumbup:

Looking forward to other replies, everyone seems to scared to reply and just look. . . . . . Or throw in the trumps card?

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## R93

> It's 80 thou longer Dave not 8. So it is significant.


Duh!! I need to learn to read.

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## baldbob

> I'm not very good at explaining what I mean via writing i know what I mean but it never comes out right, I should just stick with letting my hands do the work.
> 
> It was simular Dave to this at this is little different again :thumbup:
> 
> Looking forward to other replies, everyone seems to scared to reply and just look. . . . . . Or throw in the trumps card?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2


Might be your dyslexia talking? Or maybe the fact you even confuse yourself alot of the time... :rolleyes:

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## R93

> I'm not very good at explaining what I mean via writing i know what I mean but it never comes out right, I should just stick with letting my hands do the work.
> 
> It was simular Dave to this at this is little different again :thumbup:
> 
> Looking forward to other replies, everyone seems to scared to reply and just look. . . . . . Or throw in the trumps card?
> 
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2



Its not a huge secret but it can be an advantage and seems to improve larger bores better. I may try some N560 Abe so I will grab some off ya if you have any as well as the other stuff I am bludging?
Just leave the reloading room open and KJ and I will help ourselves when we come up in a couple weeks  :Thumbsup:

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## tui_man2

> Might be your dyslexia talking? Or maybe the fact you even confuse yourself alot of the time... :rolleyes:


It will be :thumbdown: I do the old brain only processes so much at once I have alot of shit i have to write down these days or I forget. . . Must be getting old. ...




> Its not a huge secret but it can be an advantage and seems to improve larger bores better. I may try some N560 Abe so I will grab some off ya if you have any as well as the other stuff I am bludging?
> Just leave the reloading room open and KJ and I will help ourselves when we come up in a couple weeks


Its a little different to what we done though but not alot like everything small tweaks. Year mate ill have some of that there for you to.  Lol go for it the misses will clean up your mess even an put shit where I can't find it . . . . Like normal or my little helper does


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## R93

> It will be :thumbdown: I do the old brain only processes so much at once I have alot of shit i have to write down these days or I forget. . . Must be getting old. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Its a little different to what we done though but not alot like everything small tweaks. Year mate ill have some of that there for you to.  Lol go for it the misses will clean up your mess even an put shit where I can't find it . . . . Like normal or my little helper does
> 
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2


I am pretty sure I know what you did. Sneeze and I have discussed it over a whiskey. I havent even met your missus and she growled at me. She scares me! We will just raid Adams if she is home :Oh Noes:

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## Wildman

> Here is a link to a Brian Litz article which is good http://www.bergerbullets.com/wp-cont...13/03/COAL.pdf


Maybe its enough if you are approaching the extreme limits of pressures but if you run a "lab test" in Quickload by changing the COAL it makes bugger all difference apart from cases where the bore is large compared to case capacity, I.E. 30BR. In a case like the 300rum seating depth will have a very small impact on pressure due to the already huge case capacity and relatively small % change you are causing by seating the projectile deeper or not. Litz is right of course but he doesnt quantify it with numbers to say how much and he doesnt acknowledge the importance of relative bore size to case capacity. All in all buggered if I know why he is getting the results he is...

I would agree though that changing to a harder brass to stop getting pressure signs is not my idea of safe reloading practice, if you're pushing the envelope that hard you had better hope you have a good understanding of what your pressure is doing in different environmental conditions too...

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## stug

I had heard that Kirby Allen would use hornady brass to determine pressure with his 338 Lapua wildcats and then change back to Lapua brass

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## L.R

That's not really an accurate way of doing it either is it. Internal volumes and case shapes could very a lot, data gathered for one case could be dangerous in another potentially. 
I guess you have to determine pressure some how tho and it obviously works for him.

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## stug

Yes you are right normally, but Hornady 338 lapua brass is a lot softer than Lapua 338 lapua brass. Lapua 338 lapua brass doesn't normally show pressure signs until way past normal safe pressures.

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## The Claw

> Yes you are right normally, but Hornady 338 lapua brass is a lot softer than Lapua 338 lapua brass. Lapua 338 lapua brass doesn't normally show pressure signs until way past normal safe pressures.


What are safe pressures?  :Grin: 

Sorry, I couldn't resist it... Back to the interesting discussion :thumbup:

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## baldbob

> What are safe pressures? 
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't resist it... Back to the interesting discussion :thumbup:
> 
> Sent from my XT320 using Tapatalk 2


5psi is safe  :Have A Nice Day:

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## veitnamcam

> 5psi is safe


Not in this chamber its not.


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## R93

> 5psi is safe


Some of the pressure you relieved in my truck last month would exceed 20psi at least. Foul substance, it was, as well.

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## BRADS

> Not in this chamber its not.
> Attachment 9568
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


What is that VC?

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## baldbob

> What is that VC?


That was wee cammys brekkie

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## baldbob

> Some of the pressure you relieved in my truck last month would exceed 20psi at least. Foul substance, it was, as well.


That was coming from the back seat!!!! Pppllleeaaassseeee!!!!

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## BRADS

> That was wee cammys brekkie


That would hold a lot of porridge  :Have A Nice Day:

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## veitnamcam

I won't say anymore than it is /was a paint tank.

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## tui_man2

Bite the said tongue. ...

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## veitnamcam

> this thread is bit fucked now an away from over loaded brass.............nice work facts are hidden.............again


Ah this thread was never about overloaded brass?

You and Luke made it that and then you posted some numbers and pictures to prove what exactly?



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## Spanners

I'm with Cam. Lost like everyone else since your 1st post LOL

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## tui_man2

> Ah this thread was never about overloaded brass?
> 
> You and Luke made it that and then you posted some numbers and pictures to prove what exactly?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Again. .  . . 
Primer pockets don't loosen themselves :Have A Nice Day: 
Harder brass is trying to hide it. . . . .

I posted someone's pet load. . . . .
then posted ways around high pressure to make a fast safe load. . . . . Simple to me? No


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## veitnamcam

> Again. .  . . 
> Primer pockets don't loosen themselves
> Harder brass is trying to hide it. . . . .
> 
> I posted someone's pet load. . . . .
> then posted ways around high pressure to make a fast safe load. . . . . Simple to me? No
> 
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2


Na you didn't you posted two loads with no pressure data and didn't state if they were any chamber powder brass primer changes just this one is more powder and less pressure.

I can put 52 gr of 2208 in a 308 case with no pressure signs but i sure as Fuck wouldn't even try that with n140 both of which are the same proposed burn rate .



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## veitnamcam

Ie you didn't show ways around anything at all

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## tui_man2

> Na you didn't you posted two loads with no pressure data and didn't state if they were any chamber powder brass primer changes just this one is more powder and less pressure.
> 
> I can put 52 gr of 2208 in a 308 case with no pressure signs but i sure as Fuck wouldn't even try that with n140 both of which are the same proposed burn rate .
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2





> *For sake of it pet load was 96gr, 2225, 215 primer, otm seated at 3.97" 
> 
> New load is same but 100gr an 4.05"*



There i said it.......in the first post

SAME primer
SAME cases
SAME powder
SAME projectile
MORE powder

So where did the excuess pressure go?
Why would i tell everyone the little bits i done to reduce the pressure?

I showed everything that was needed................

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## Spanners

My RUM ended up with 100+ faster and 5 more grains in it for less indicated pressure on same brass

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## veitnamcam

> There i said it.......in the first post
> 
> SAME primer
> SAME cases
> SAME powder
> SAME projectile
> MORE powder
> 
> So where did the excuess pressure go?
> ...


I would gueSs it has been forced into and threw the lands before peak pressure rise with the higher load and not with the lower.
But Im just guessing.

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## tui_man2

> My RUM ended up with 100+ faster and 5 more grains in it for less indicated pressure on same brass


Same chamber that was showing pressure signs lower?
Or chamge of barrel chamber etc?

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## Spanners

> Same chamber that was showing pressure signs lower?
> Or chamge of barrel chamber etc?


Sames

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## veitnamcam

> Again. .  . . 
> 
> then posted ways around high pressure to make a fast safe load. 
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2


I must have missed this bit unless the way to make a safer faster load is make it a bit longer and put more powder in


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## tui_man2

> Sames


An changed noting but upping the charge?

Load info?

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## tui_man2

> I must have missed this bit unless the way to make a safer faster load is make it a bit longer and put more powder in
> 
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Google edge +p is what i always get told..............

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## R93

It has gone over a few heads and it did mine for a start until It was pointed out I couldn't read properly. The brass and chamber are the same. More powder than the original load after a process Abe has done has resulted in less pressure. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

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## Spanners

> An changed noting but upping the charge?
> 
> Load info?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2


+OAL

Normal loading for 300 RUM with 2225 in the 90s then +5 still in the 90s

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## bully

so what did you do?

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## Spanners

Plot pressure over time and bullet travel over time on the same axis and you will start to see things...

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## veitnamcam

The point i am trying to make is Tui said he had explained a simple way to increase speed and lower pressure. When really he had not explained anything.

Following his advice for a safe load i should cram 4 more grains of powder into my just touch load and increase length to a jam and i just know that will end badly in my 308 :Grin: 

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## veitnamcam

Or put another way as a complete novice reading this thread i will go out in the shed and load up a heap of rounds for ol Betsy 4 grains over pressure signs and a bit longer and its good to go cos that's the secret:thumbup:

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## tui_man2

> The point i am trying to make is Tui said he had explained a simple way to increase speed and lower pressure. When really he had not explained anything.
> 
> Following his advice for a safe load i should cram 4 more grains of powder into my just touch load and increase length to a jam and i just know that will end badly in my 308
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


I never said what I done, nor did I say to copy the load. . . .

Nor am I going to say that would be silly :Have A Nice Day: 

Anyone that has a standard edge will know NOT to go over 94gr or is that what people do to get speed? Next time I'll just get hard brass. . . . . .. an not worrie

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## tui_man2

> +OAL
> 
> Normal loading for 300 RUM with 2225 in the 90s then +5 still in the 90s


Nice facts. . . . . .  

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## R93

> The point i am trying to make is Tui said he had explained a simple way to increase speed and lower pressure. When really he had not explained anything.
> 
> Following his advice for a safe load i should cram 4 more grains of powder into my just touch load and increase length to a jam and i just know that will end badly in my 308
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


No. A bit more to it than that. And safer.
I think it was meant to be a question of how he achieved this. Not anything more.


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## Spanners

> Nice facts. . . . . .  
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2


I've got nothing to prove and am happy with the performance and results etc - thus no need to get into a pissing match on the data if anyone wants to disagree. 
Was simply pointing out it was in the regions of normal loading for the case. 

You may have noticed that I generally don't post any loads online unless they are pretty std like 125gr 9mm, 55gr 223, 150/168 308. 
That's 3 calibers from the 30? I load - all for good reason

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## veitnamcam

> No. A bit more to it than that. And safer.
> I think it was meant to be a question of how he achieved this. Not anything more.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!


Yea i get that but then stated that this is how its done nothing more nothin less

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## veitnamcam

People other than enthusiasts read these threads.

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## tui_man2

> I've got nothing to prove and am happy with the performance and results etc - thus no need to get into a pissing match on the data if anyone wants to disagree. 
> Was simply pointing out it was in the regions of normal loading for the case. 
> 
> You may have noticed that I generally don't post any loads online unless they are pretty std like 125gr 9mm, 55gr 223, 150/168 308. 
> That's 3 calibers from the 30? I load - all for good reason


Thats cool.

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## kiwijames

> Anyone object to me tidying this thread a bit?


No *please* tidy this up. It has gone down the shitter with a big handful of paper to block up all reason on the follow through

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## tui_man2

> Yea i get that but then stated that this is how its done nothing more nothin less
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


I did say few mods......never said what

Trying to put words in my mouth?




> People other than enthusiasts read these threads.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


And? i never said for people to add powder to get safe............anyone with brains would know not to take a load of the internet........was putting the facts there
Now on i should follow others like sheep an post x speed for x chambering
So heres one 17 fireball poking a 200gr at 3200 its ok tho its nice hard brass

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## veitnamcam

Oh Fuck it i can't work out how to put multiple quotes in.

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## Normie

Cam. I think a bit of deep throat will explain it for ya.

Or read the first few sentences of this link.

338 Edge + P now available from Defensive Edge - Long Range Hunting Online Magazine

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## R93

I wonder why he calls it a plus 'P' I reckon Cam knows more about this than he is letting on :Grin:

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## Kiwi Greg

> Cam. I think a bit of deep throat will explain it for ya.
> 
> Or read the first few sentences of this link.
> 
> 338 Edge + P now available from Defensive Edge - Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Or more specifically

Firearm Throat and Rifling Method - Patent application

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## Sidney

So if you are not getting deformation to hard brass, you are not getting deformation to the action...whats the problem?  Why the issue with quality brass not showing signs of pressure/deformation?

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## baldbob

> So if you are not getting deformation to hard brass, you are not getting deformation to the action...whats the problem?  Why the issue with quality brass not showing signs of pressure/deformation?


Is this not hiding it?

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## PerazziSC3

Yeah its hiding it to a degree. But if you change to harder brass and pressure signs are not appsrant I would say you would be a mile of reaching pressure that could damage yout action.  

Brass fails over time right? Say 5-10 loadings. Would a action fail over time?

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## Sidney

Of course... but everyone talks about pressure when surely all that this is, is the cause of what we are trying to avoid... deformation.  Tussocks point is valid its pressure/time = force which causes deformation which is what we are trying to avoid.  

Pressure in itself is only a component of the destructive force that we are trying to avoid... it would seem not sufficient to just be talking about pressure, particularly as we cannot reliably quantify it, and we do not know the strength of every firearm/action/brass being used and we have little idea over what time that the pressure is being applied...

No deformation = no issue yes?  I do acknowledge that the harder/better quality brass tends to be less progressive in showing deformation..... its good, its good, its good/its really bad  :Grin:  ... and this is an issue..

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## Cyclist

And ALLLLL this shit is what Roy Weatherby learnt yonks ago leading him to spec those long throats on his high pressure weatherby chamberings

Those same long throats that are considered a "problem" by lots of shooters because they cant load projectiles to "just touch" the lands so have terrible accuracy  :Zomg:  (there are a shitload of take off weatherby mk5 barrels floating around) (there are also plenty of people who cant shoot a .308 accurately let alone a .30-378) (there are also plenty of rifles which shoot MINT with long throats and massive jumps).

And now its all "new" and "secret squirrel" because blah blah blah

Yawn

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## Wildman

Show me these Mk 5 barrels :Have A Nice Day:  I could do with a few!

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## Sidney

Yep so Carlock is trying to deal with both issues, and good on him...

What pees me off is the patent bullshit.  There is nothing particularly ground breaking with Carlock's design, and sure he has spent money and time getting to whatever place, but the guy if he has his way, he will lock up the basic idea so that he is the only one to profit by it.  That always does the wider community a disservice... 

The vast majority are not going to buy his technology off him, he has no way of meeting the demand if its ground-breaking, and the pattern of behaviour for those holding valuable technology is to sit still, over-price the idea, do no development and nothing happens under the protection comes off...

He is better off to build brand identity into the idea and run as fast as he can with it... the wider community benefit and he remains an ideas man rather than just milking the cow for as much as its worth..

In our world I think the patent approach is gutless... as well as being really expensive...

And to be honest there is no way he can protect the idea, its not that original....

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## stug

If you can patent/trademark the WSM you can do what he has done. Would be reasonably easy to get around. He seems to use two/three steps in his throat. Use less or a gradual angle should get around it. Kirby Allen investigated a similar throat design but found it wore out too quickly.

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## Sidney

True... but he can't protect it... if I wanted a Blaser Mag/Dakota reamer I could get it any day of the week.  Waste of money to patent it.  Have a look around to see how many Dakota propriotery calibre's are in use...  In fact the Blaser is just a knock off on the Dakota anyway..

Trademark, brand identity is the only realistic way to go.. make sure you are the first thought in peoples head by identifying the product with yourself..
...Should call it the Carlock Imp. Chamber or something...

You also have to wonder what he is trying to protect... its not a cartridge he has developed.... how does he even effectively generate income from the idea other than by rebarrelling or building rifles...

Is that even worth the cost of patent... its probably not worth the cost of trying to defend the patent..   :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## Spanners

Maybe I'm super smart or something but you need to read the patent and drawings again.... This applies to 99% of you all LOL
I had t read it as I didn't know it existed till it was posted but my 'theory' was confirmed in writing 
I do struggle to see how you could patent it though...

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## Sidney

There's nothing to see...he puts a 2 stage step until full engagement.. its smart but hardly ground breaking.. I was speaking generically about patents assuming some sort of ground breaking development... this isn't.. which is even more reason to not bother..

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## Spanners

Read it again.. 
 :Grin:

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## Cyclist

Sooo the reamer extends beyond the chamber neck thinning out the start of the rifling and the engagement with the jacket builds up in steps.  Kinda like easing something hard into a tight place rather than just jamming it straight in thereby reducing the chances of things blowing up?

http://www.faqs.org/patents/img/20120117846_01.png

So its like freebore but with rifling - interesting.

Interesting to note that the Allen mag guy saying that people were returning his version of the same thorat to get them put back to standard throats due to shite barrel life  :X X:

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## Sidney

Nope not seeing anything... the first step is more tapered than the second.... thats all.....

Enlighten me.

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## baldbob

> Nope not seeing anything... the first step is more tapered than the second.... thats all.....
> 
> Enlighten me.


There are multiple steps of rifling so the bullet engages the bore gradually... so pressure  builds gradually rather than spiking substansially when a bullet hits the rifling as one instant engage from a single freebore throat.... supposedly  also causing bullet to travel down the bore with less impossed wobble!!!
This has been round for years.. carlocks just made it a step rather than. a taper like a few other guys have done!!

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## Spanners

I have nothing to gain in the whole thing  but read the patent and draw it to scale not view the (cool) basic hundred yr old drawing style (love it btw)

Basically a reduced extended free bore under throat diameter with a taper in the rifling.

Allen's version is different. 
His 'thump' into the rifling is more abrupt.

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## Spanners

> There are multiple steps of rifling so the bullet engages the bore gradually... so pressure  builds gradually rather than spiking substansially when a bullet hits the rifling as one instant engage from a single freebore throat.... supposedly  also causing bullet to travel down the bore with less impossed wobble!!!
> This has been round for years.. carlocks just made it a step rather than. a taper like a few other guys have done!!


100% correct 
Number of 223/556 chambers doing the same for YEARS

Hell look at the publication date. It's been public knowledge for a year. Anyone who claims to have invented anything similar since then is nothing more than copy cat.

As I hinted at the other day, plot pressure and distance over time on the same axis and you will see interesting things. 

There is little in this world that can't be explained by science/physics..

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## Sidney

So there is an extended taper of the rifling in the freebore area?

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## Spanners

> So there is an extended taper of the rifling in the freebore area?


 Nope- not as it reads in print or paper. 
Basically taper the rifling after the freebore. 
Blend it or shoulder it, quantifiable results are questionable but its all post freebore effectively.

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## Spanners

Don't get caught up in the piss and wind patent terminology. 
It's old school English and lawyer wording

Exactly the same as the 100+ yr old patent drawings I've playing with for the last few yrs (completely different topic)

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## Sidney

So due to the reduction in land profile directly in front of the projectile, it probably is going to allow reduced pressure because of the progressive nature of the engagement, but there is also less land material to resist premature wear?

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## baldbob

> 100% correct 
> Number of 223/556 chambers doing the same for YEARS
> 
> Hell look at the publication date. It's been public knowledge for a year. Anyone who claims to have invented anything similar since then is nothing more than copy cat.
> 
> As I hinted at the other day, plot pressure and distance over time on the same axis and you will see interesting things. 
> 
> There is little in this world that can't be explained by science/physics..


Everything has laws of physics to blame.. im not claiming to be einstein but i can see basic physics in everything we do!!!
Sort of like why cases such as WSMs get much better speeds than say a 30/06 based case with F-all extra capacity...  more surface area for pressure to build/disperse I suppose!

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## Spanners

> So due to the reduction in land profile directly in front of the projectile, it probably is going to allow reduced pressure because of the progressive nature of the engagement, but there is also less land material to resist premature wear?


Yes on the 1st part-exactly
 uncertainty on the 2nd
A large number of rounds would be the only certainly.
And what do you compare it to? Std or same performance ?

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## Spanners

> Everything has laws of physics to blame.. im not claiming to be einstein but i can see basic physics in everything we do!!!
> Sort of like why cases such as WSMs get much better speeds than say a 30/06 based case with F-all extra capacity...  more surface area for pressure to build/disperse I suppose!



And this is where we may disagree..  :Have A Nice Day: 
A 30.06 and 300 WSM run different pressures so no apples and apples. 
Wsm at 06 pressure would result in 06 speeds IMO

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## Sidney

Well there is less land material to resist wear....   :Grin:   I should have said would it wear at the same rate given the same loads being used.... and to that I guess we don't know...  if the pressure was reduced it may not I suppose

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## Cyclist

I think I'll stick with these

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## Sidney

you're probably not looking for an increase in fps with those.. :Grin:

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## baldbob

> And this is where we may disagree.. 
> A 30.06 and 300 WSM run different pressures so no apples and apples. 
> Wsm at 06 pressure would result in 06 speeds IMO


But thats exactly what i mean spanners.. the extra case capacity of the WSM is fook all over a 06 what 5gns?? but you can run much higher pressure and speed!! Due id say to the differing surface area and differing internal dimensions of the chambering to allow the pressure to be disposed of... so we do agree!!!

But ur well right apple with bananas!

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## crnkin

Short and fat is way better aye adam

 :Wink:

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## Sidney

> I think I'll stick with these
> 
> Attachment 9644


How well does the 168 Amax go expansion wise subsonic?

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## baldbob

> Short and fat is way better aye adam


I see ur jibe wee cranky  :Have A Nice Day:  but for the correct assumption of the more serious part ill refuse to bite!!! Just this once!!!

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## Wildman

> But thats exactly what i mean spanners.. the extra case capacity of the WSM is fook all over a 06 what 5gns?? but you can run much higher pressure and speed!! Due id say to the differing surface area and differing internal dimensions of the chambering to allow the pressure to be disposed of... so we do agree!!!
> 
> But ur well right apple with bananas!


You might want to consider the date of conception of both those rounds before making such rash statements.

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## baldbob

> The Wild One beat me to it.


No your not gettn it what i meant.. time of conception or so called pressure ratings i dont give a fuck... ive loaded 2506 6.506 .270 & 3006... 6.5wsm .270wsm & 300wsm!!!!  I was talking about performance relitive! not performance ralated to a friggin outdated action!!!! 
IM TALKING BOUT RELITIVE PERFORMANCE BETWEEN THE TWO CHAMBERINGS TO EMPHISIS WHAT SPANNERS SAID ABOUT PHYSICS AND SCIENCE!!!!

All you guys need a go get spelling lessons!!! EVERYTHING HAS TO BE SPELT OUT FOR YOU ALL LIKE kindergarten babies!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at this thread for example an entire thread of kids running round in a daze like babies goin duh what!!! Oh it was spelt out for me!!!! Duh oh i didnt read it properly duh naaaa i still dnt get it duh!!!!

You all wudnt even begin to understand what alot of this thread stands for lol....

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## veitnamcam

Oh really !

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## Wildman

Bro are drunk?

Talk about throwing rocks in glasshouses. Try a spell checker yourself. We get what you're trying to say but what we are saying is that if you ran your WSM and the '06 at the same pressure there would be bugger all difference in result...

This thread is great, i've been able to use heaps of mint one liners...

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## baldbob

> We would if it was written in English. 
> 
> Be honest Bob, were your the guy who had a copy of the great works of Shakespeare in the glove box of his Kingswood at highschool like me, or the guy in english class bothering girls and moaning about how "I already speak english, this is pointless"


Well actually i creamed english! 80% and onli showed up for like 56% of classes cos that shit was dumb bro!!!

But ur just tryna jibe my jibe now lol

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## baldbob

> I have one word for you. SCALING! Wish I want to school on the coast


I have one word for you wee tussy!!! IMPORT!!
That is correct iam from nelson and attended nelson boys  :Wink:

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## Wildman

A border no doubt.

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## baldbob

> A border no doubt.


Sorry wildone i wouldnt stoop to your level :Wink:

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## Wildman

Nayland mate, no single sex school for me...

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## baldbob

> Nayland mate, no single sex school for me...


My dad made me lol!!!
Fairfield park half way between boys an nelson girls made it all better!!!!
Nothing quite beat driving down nayland rd at 3.15pm tho lol

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## R93

> I have one word for you. SCALING! Wish I want to school on the coast


Oi!!! I went to school on the coast!...........Ill shutup now.

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## Kiwi Greg

> Nayland mate, no single sex school for me...


Good old Nayland.....& Mr Zac...

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## Cyclist

> I have one word for you wee tussy!!! IMPORT!!
> That is correct iam from nelson and attended nelson boys


Definately a dope smoker then...

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## Wildman

Only "probably" Cyclist, He's not from Mot....

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## baldbob

> Definately a dope smoker then...


What a brash accusation to make!!!
Maybe you should wean urself off the bulb!!! Might help releive such small mindedness

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## crnkin

> I see ur jibe wee cranky  but for the correct assumption of the more serious part ill refuse to bite!!! Just this once!!!


hahaha

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## Kiwi Greg

> Definately a dope smoker then...


I thought that was Waimea.....

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## veitnamcam

Yep

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## baldbob

> We would if it was written in English. 
> 
> Be honest Bob, were your the guy who had a copy of the great works of Shakespeare in the glove box of his Kingswood at highschool like me, or the guy in english class bothering girls and moaning about how "I already speak english, this is pointless"


Well actually i creamed english! 80% and onli showed up for like 56% of classes cos that shit was dumb bro!!!

But ur just tryna jibe my jibe now lol

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## baldbob

> I have one word for you. SCALING! Wish I want to school on the coast


I have one word for you wee tussy!!! IMPORT!!
That is correct iam from nelson and attended nelson boys  :Wink:

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## Wildman

A border no doubt.

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## baldbob

> A border no doubt.


Sorry wildone i wouldnt stoop to your level :Wink:

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## Wildman

Nayland mate, no single sex school for me...

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## baldbob

> Nayland mate, no single sex school for me...


My dad made me lol!!!
Fairfield park half way between boys an nelson girls made it all better!!!!
Nothing quite beat driving down nayland rd at 3.15pm tho lol

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## R93

> I have one word for you. SCALING! Wish I want to school on the coast


Oi!!! I went to school on the coast!...........Ill shutup now.

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## Kiwi Greg

> Nayland mate, no single sex school for me...


Good old Nayland.....& Mr Zac...

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## Cyclist

> I have one word for you wee tussy!!! IMPORT!!
> That is correct iam from nelson and attended nelson boys


Definately a dope smoker then...

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## Wildman

Only "probably" Cyclist, He's not from Mot....

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## baldbob

> Definately a dope smoker then...


What a brash accusation to make!!!
Maybe you should wean urself off the bulb!!! Might help releive such small mindedness

----------


## crnkin

> I see ur jibe wee cranky  but for the correct assumption of the more serious part ill refuse to bite!!! Just this once!!!


hahaha

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## Kiwi Greg

> Definately a dope smoker then...


I thought that was Waimea.....

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## veitnamcam

Yep

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