# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  Long range shooting course

## ARdave

Seen this advertised in the lastest hunting mags Precision Shooting | Australia rifle training and Australian long range shooting , coming to nz in march. bloody expensive but looks magic. anyone else thinking of doing it or got any thoughts on it?

----------


## gimp

Nope

----------


## R93

Nearly $2200 NZ to learn what you could by attending a couple LR shoots for peanuts put on by forum members? Trust me there is nothing you could learn off them that couldnt from forum members and attending a couple of shoots. Go to the Auckland gong shoot and you will be surprised what you will take away from it.
You would either have been bluffed or have way too much money to attend that cse, my personal opinion of course.

----------


## ARdave

haha yea it is alot ...but i was just gathering some thoughts and opinions. in the process of putting together my own (first) LR rifle at the mo and saw that. thought it might accelerate learning or possibly be of interest to you guys. but maybe not hahaha. good to know that we got some volunteers to teach me too!!  :Wink:

----------


## madjon_

lookn at your avatar you don't need a lot of teaching

----------


## R93

I may not be much immediate help in the LR department but I could show ya how to dress an animal without getting blood all over yourself :Psmiley:

----------


## ARdave

> I may not be much immediate help in the LR department but I could show ya how to dress an animal without getting blood all over yourself


haha depends where you shoot it i guess  :Wink:  some deer are unco-operative ...

----------


## R93

Na, unless gut shot it can still be done. But who cares really when a wash sorts it. It was important when working on machines not to get blood everywhere. It wasnt a good look if you had loopy's to do later on and it looked like you gutted an animal inside the machine. Which happened when you had a newbie on the job.

----------


## R93

I hope it was only your hands. Oh! Sorry I forgot you dont live on the coast.  :Grin:

----------


## Rock river arms hunter

Terminal Ballistics Research 

He does similar shoots and at a fraction of the price! Dad and I are going with him at some point in spring

----------


## gimp

I love that guys website, it's all copy+paste from wikipedia calibre articles and articles that say like "hey bedding is the cause of all accuracy problems ever and also it's a service that we offer!"

----------


## ChrisF

Really , sounds like hype over substance , opps , Bad  Chris .

Want to learn about LR shooting , just join & shoot your local NRA club , Opps , and donot expect to learn IT all in 2 days etc .

----------


## LJP

> Nearly $2200 NZ to learn what you could by attending a couple LR shoots for peanuts put on by forum members? Trust me there is nothing you could learn off them that couldnt from forum members and attending a couple of shoots. Go to the Auckland gong shoot and you will be surprised what you will take away from it.
> You would either have been bluffed or have way too much money to attend that cse, my personal opinion of course.


I made the mistake of attending an Auckland gong shoot - made some great friends, drooled over some nice gear, shot some of the nice gear, went from thinking 200yds is a long way to thinking 600yds is doable.......then bewarned have spent a shitload of money since  :Thumbsup:  Long range is addictive & very satisfying. R93 is on the right track.

----------


## Lurcher

I like the advert for that course, think it went along the lines of  "learn everything you need to know to hit a clay target with your 1st round at 1000m" or something like that. 

So, I googled  and came up with this:

Precision Shooting Canberra - Shooting.com.au

seems to be a positive write up...   As others have said its a lot of money, so I will not be the one to write up the NZ course.

----------


## Dougie

> Depends how cold it is. Iv been in minus go knows what wind chill in a southerly and squabbled with a mate over who got to stick there hands inside the deer he shot. Deers insides are warm.





> And you thought they smelled bad on the outside.


 :Wink:

----------


## ARdave

^^^ ahaha. went your hands are red its all good. when their green or brown... wump wowww....

----------


## Dead is better

"Well I learned a lot about my rifle and it performed very well at 1000 yards. I think I need to do some more testing at 100 but it seems to be all good. When the instructors were spotting my shots they said they easily went into a 1 inch group at 1000 and that's all I really need."

Geez the Aussies like to settle for crap performance eh. Only 1" at 1000y accuracy??? Might as well throw rocks at 'em mate

----------


## R93

Think it was meant to be 1 MOA. 
1" at a K, would be a world record and I havn't bothered setting it yet.
 Cant find a mirror that I can hold steady enough while the rifle is on top of my shoulder.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

----------


## NZHTR

Typo may be .. 1 moa ,or 1 "

----------


## el borracho

> Nearly $2200 NZ to learn what you could by attending a couple LR shoots for peanuts put on by forum members? Trust me there is nothing you could learn off them that couldnt from forum members and attending a couple of shoots. Go to the Auckland gong shoot and you will be surprised what you will take away from it.
> You would either have been bluffed or have way too much money to attend that case, my personal opinion of course.



2k for a 5 day course isn't unreasonable but what would you really take away from it that you couldn't learn through being around others that shoot long range ?I would also ask anyone considering these courses to ask your self why? Have you watch Sniper one to many times on DVD  or do you think there are areas that they will cover in depth that you cannot find yourself with a search engine or by asking your peers ?
Well there probably are things to be truthful you could learn on one of these courses and those would be more around body mechanics and natural point of aim and trigger pull if the tutor was any good.
Other things a person interested in LR shooting will do is read about most subjects on the net as most things are very well covered in many forums -in particular SnipersHide which caters to the serious tactical shooter ,hunter , plinker and whatever else you might class yourself as .One other major factor in doing a course worth this money you would want  to come away with more than the basics if you are already a competent marksman -1ST round hits even with experienced shooter doesn't always happen as we well know as there are many variable that come into this equations and they keep changing especially wind .Wind will be the one that kicks your arse more than any other factor in long range shooting  .Only long hours behind the gun in different terrain will train you TO handle wind and the signs to look for like movement and mirage and even then you'll still eat plenty of humble pie
 I would attend a course if I had bucks to waste but I would I come back a better shooter -maybe a bit maybe not and I would rather spend the 2k on another bit of kit and go and practice more with my peers and discuss performance or that lack thereof with them.Bottom line if your not going to do a course of some sort shoot a lot with other enthusiasts that have a clue --come to the Auckland gong shoot as R93 suggests  if your close enough to come and quickly gain some good knowledge for free!!!

----------


## ARdave

> 2k for a 5 day course isn't unreasonable but what would you really take away from it that you couldn't learn through being around others that shoot long range ?I would also ask anyone considering these courses to ask your self why? Have you watch Sniper one to many times on DVD  or do you think there are areas that they will cover in depth that you cannot find yourself with a search engine or by asking your peers ?
> Well there probably are things to be truthful you could learn on one of these courses and those would be more around body mechanics and natural point of aim and trigger pull if the tutor was any good.
> Other things a person interested in LR shooting will do is read about most subjects on the net as most things are very well covered in many forums -in particular SnipersHide which caters to the serious tactical shooter ,hunter , plinker and whatever else you might class yourself as .One other major factor in doing a course worth this money you would want  to come away with more than the basics if you are already a competent marksman -1ST round hits even with experienced shooter doesn't always happen as we well know as there are many variable that come into this equations and they keep changing especially wind .Wind will be the one that kicks your arse more than any other factor in long range shooting  .Only long hours behind the gun in different terrain will train you TO handle wind and the signs to look for like movement and mirage and even then you'll still eat plenty of humble pie
>  I would attend a course if I had bucks to waste but I would I come back a better shooter -maybe a bit maybe not and I would rather spend the 2k on another bit of kit and go and practice more with my peers and discuss performance or that lack thereof with them.Bottom line if your not going to do a course of some sort shoot a lot with other enthusiasts that have a clue --come to the Auckland gong shoot as R93 suggests  if your close enough to come and quickly gain some good knowledge for free!!!


flying up to auckland and back several times to learn to shoot seems equally un-economical if thats the point your trying to make... whats with the weak "sniper" dvd referral u got going down there? and for the internet search issue...i have used google before and thanks.
 man i was just putting it out there no need to run me down or hint at my dvd collection... i work in western australia , come back infrequently to nz so it was more a time thing for me to learn as much as i can as quickly as i can while im working away

----------


## Spanners

We have shot put of wellie too Dave. Will hve to check to see if access is still available but couple hrs up the line is another option we have

----------


## el borracho

> flying up to auckland and back several times to learn to shoot seems equally un-economical if thats the point your trying to make... whats with the weak "sniper" dvd referral u got going down there? and for the internet search issue...i have used google before and thanks.
>  man i was just putting it out there no need to run me down or hint at my dvd collection... i work in western australia , come back infrequently to nz so it was more a time thing for me to learn as much as i can as quickly as i can while im working away


my post was talking generally not to you per se'.
The DVD referral is a very real happening and motivation for some to do tactical courses. Your welcome to fly to Auckland for the weekend and shoot with us

----------


## el borracho

I had to laugh about this also as I wanted to learn to fly after seeing top gun -haha what a wanker

----------


## crzyman

You put your name down yet B? I know you want to.......

----------


## el borracho

If I had the bucks and the time yeah I wouldn't mind hanging out in Aus sending a few rounds down the range and learning some stuff-but would it be stuff I would need not being a professional soldier -but I haven't so its Top Gun dreaming and aeroplane noises for me

----------


## Neckshot

If I shot a deer At 1k in the ruahines it would take me a half a day just to get to the area i thought i shot it at!.Then find it maybe! Or i could get a mate to spot for me and guide me in with a..........................morse code.

----------


## ARdave

> We have shot put of wellie too Dave. Will hve to check to see if access is still available but couple hrs up the line is another option we have


dead keen!

----------


## ARdave

> my post was talking generally not to you per se'.
> The DVD referral is a very real happening and motivation for some to do tactical courses. Your welcome to fly to Auckland for the weekend and shoot with us


hahah no worries then!  :Have A Nice Day:  ill have to take u up on that offer now

----------


## el borracho

Yes do that as you wont learn much through Wellington shooters -all wind down there  :Thumbsup:

----------


## gimp

> For me, $2500 = 1700 rounds (depending on how much powder I spill).
> 
> 1700 rounds will teach you a lot.


1700 rounds will reinforce a lot of bad habits if you are doing the wrong things


Training has value

----------


## rob270

Hello everyone,  I have just done the two day shooting school with GunWerks in Australia at the Ragland range in central Queensland. We shot at a starting distance of 500meters and then moved onto the 1000meter range . The school was very good and had a strong focus on long range hunting. Most of the shooters  shot groups of 5 inchers  at 1000 meters with Gunwerks rifles and Ammo.We shot  prone, shooting sticks, a bipod and rear bag and used 7mm Rem Mag with 168gr berger hunting pills. Worth a look!

Cheers Rob

----------


## el borracho

> Hello everyone,  I have just done the two day shooting school with GunWerks in Australia at the Ragland range in central Queensland. We shot at a starting distance of 500meters and then moved onto the 1000meter range . The school was very good and had a strong focus on long range hunting. Most of the shooters  shot groups of 5 inchers  at 1000 meters with Gunwerks rifles and Ammo.We shot  prone, shooting sticks, a bipod and rear bag and used 7mm Rem Mag with 168gr berger hunting pills. Worth a look!
> 
> Cheers Rob


What did you go there to learn to do Rob-or what was on offer

----------


## Kiwi Greg

> A girl I knew hit a 1000yard target on her first shot ever with a large centerfire.


+1 with the right set up & gear it is very possible.

My Daughter was 10 when see shot her first rabbit @ 95 with a 204 after 3 outings she had hit 2 out of 3 @ 309 yards.
She also shot out to 1125 yds & went to some LR steel shoots to show the boys how to do it  :Wink:  
Her first Fallow deer @ 317 yds on my birthday when she was 11 was a great day.
Earlier this year she shot her first Red at 600 yds  :Cool: 
GF shot her first rabbits @ 200 ish & her first Red at 525 yds so she has 3 victims so far  :Have A Nice Day: 
She has also shot steel out to 1475 yds.

The best thing I have done is gone out & shot steel at distance with other Forum members both up North & way down South, beware this can get expensive  :Grin:

----------


## Norway

> +
> The best thing I have done is gone out & shot steel at distance with other Forum members both up North & way down South, beware this can get expensive


+1
It is a very nice way to learn.
I see nothing wrong with paying money for a course, it's an honest way of making a buck, but beware that the quality varies enormously. There are many experts with partial and I have attended where the instructor were so embarrasingly underdog in skill we just threw him out.

(Anyone heard of the Lutz Muller bullets? 
Lutz Moeller in English on Bullets

We actually tested them and they work best on the internet...)

----------


## el borracho

> +1
> It is a very nice way to learn.
> I see nothing wrong with paying money for a course, it's an honest way of making a buck, but beware that the quality varies enormously. There are many experts with partial and I have attended where the instructor were so embarrasingly underdog in skill we just threw him out.
> 
> (Anyone heard of the Lutz Muller bullets? 
> Lutz Moeller in English on Bullets
> 
> We actually tested them and they work best on the internet...)


 Now thats funny !! The guy is a bit of a legend in different circles of shooters and a revered designer of stuff to others ,Interesting uncovering the layers of BS to see if he is as good as some say .Great thread went down on Snipershide about the BS some manufacturers spin especially the south African guy that make solids -he just failed miserably and you were paying a premium for his failures !

----------


## el borracho

There is much to get right with shooting accurately at all distances depending on the size of the object you are shooting  and I know all of you that enjoy this sort of target type shooting understand the difficulties one encounters even after you got you load down pat , are zeroed ,your body mechanics are oiled and functioning so you are correctly positioned and comfortable to shoot and watch you shot land .The greatest and hardest obstacle is the wind school and understanding what is happening in all the different terrain features that you encounter --basically I doubt you stop learning but its a lot of fun and a school  you don't mind attending as much as possible

----------


## Norway

Wind isn't that difficult, stick to the basics and add/remove a fixed amount if you encounter certain terrain features. There'll always be a wind that cannot be doped, but there are a lot of "impossible" winds that's just a matter of method. Then it is fairly easy to just hammer the target twice and have a very good chance of hitting.

I find that controlling shoulder pressure and relaxing right arm under stress is a huge obstacle for many.

----------


## andyanimal31

It must be you southislanders that have bomb ups, As philipo will attest there is none of that sort of behavior at the north island forum shoots.
All jokes aside there are places for paying to learn and picking up knowledge for free of others but pulling the trigger lots is the main source of learning in a controlled manner of course!
The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same eh! 


> I know from my readings on here my shootings not too bad these days. I can shoot very respectable groops with most rifles and I have good success at longer ranges in the right conditions.
> 
> But, I literally started out as the worst shot in history. Im confident I was. At 25m from a benchrest I would struggle to hit the paper. I would not shoot at an animal with a large center fire beyond 15m (seriously). I was the laughing stock of my friends on pig shoots.
> 
> I started at the range with Carlsen Highway aka James Passmore our avid new author. I had the mother of all flinches among many other sins, including gripping the rifle like I was hanging off it over a cliff. He did a wonderful job and trained me out of my flinch while I was still shooting a light hard booting rifle. No mean feat. I could then shoot ok, if not a little inconsistent groups at the range and my field shooting became respectable. I still didnt have the confidence to shoot my own groops for load development though. 
> 
> Then I met Norway and did his course and learned a bunch more. Iv practiced a great deal of what I have been taught, and picked up a lot in discussions on technique on the forum. The old one, and now here.
> 
> All of this was free of charge. Cost me nothing, and I met lots of cool people along the way. 
> ...

----------


## rob270

> What did you go there to learn to do Rob-or what was on offer


I went to the course to learn the basics of long range hunting. Most of my rifle hunting is varmiting with a 22-250 and bigger game animals with a old sako L61R 270 Win. After hunting in the Mount Hutt region in March this year the abilty to hunt at extended ranges, humanely and consistently place a shot with a hunting rifle.

The course was easy to understand and you put in practice what had been taught. 

For me the use of the G7 range finder along with the Gunwerks turret system, made the practical side of the course very easy.

They explain bullet drift and show you how to read the wind, mirrarge and its effects at a distance. 

Cheers Rob

----------


## el borracho

> ]Wind isn't that difficult,[/COLOR] stick to the basics and add/remove a fixed amount if you encounter certain terrain features. There'll always be a wind that cannot be doped, but there are a lot of "impossible" winds that's just a matter of method. Then it is fairly easy to just hammer the target twice and have a very good chance of hitting.
> 
> I find that controlling shoulder pressure and relaxing right arm under stress is a huge obstacle for many.


Do you win alot of competitions?

----------


## R93

Depends, do they involve a biscuit T? I reckon I would give the accountant with no fingers from Sons of Anarchy a run for his money.

----------


## gimp

> I think you would be surprised how few people are interested in competitions El Boracho.


Competitions are fun and don't leave you much room for illusions about your ability or the efficiency of your system, if you shoot the right sort of competition...

I wish there were cool practical LR comps in Nz.

----------


## el borracho

> I think you would be surprised how few people are interested in competitions El Boracho.


comps are a great way to test your theory's and pitt yourself against your peers -I tend to listen to those that have Identifiable track records .

----------


## Norway

I used to compete when I was a kid but not anymore, but  I often took a trophy and also had a few coveted ones before I binned them. I'm not willing to travel to shoot a few shots and we hardly have F-class here. Spare time is about the most valuable thing I have.

It actualle became a credibility problem for my writing, hence the witness in my last blog. (he is famous in scandinavian hunting circles)

----------


## el borracho

I dig competing and do a lot of club shooting but now enjoy the open terrain contests .Its a shame I am not close to the type of terrain you shoot Thomas but in the upper north Island where i live you'd have to travel a long way to find it .
Do you pass through Auckland on your trips as a lesson session as you've done in the south would be popular I am sure if you had the time

----------


## el borracho

Tussock there is a big difference when shooting time pressured comps than having a plink in your own time -it shows your flaws up as I had happen to me a while back in the mountains which is a place not at all familiar to me . Even the best come second

----------


## R93

> comps are a great way to test your theory's and pitt yourself against your peers -I tend to listen to those that have Identifiable track records .


I know heaps of people that could shoot the peanuts out of a flys shit that do not compete. The only regular competitions for LR shooting is F class if I am not mistaken. 
I would love to do it sometime but because it is so popular, they only run it in the North Island. 
For now I would rather spend my money with the NZCTA and the hundreds of affiliated clubs as I can win some back if I am up to it.

----------


## el borracho

Im not going to shoot as much Fclass in the next season and spend more time in the field and hopefully at some different locations  and terrain features .Fclass is fun but I hate shooting 36 rounds from 9-4pm long day with little trigger time

----------


## R93

> Tussock there is a big difference when shooting time pressured comps than having a plink in your own time -it shows your flaws up as I had happen to me a while back in the mountains which is a place not at all familiar to me . Even the best come second


How many overseas competitions have you shot in EL B?

----------


## el borracho

none ,to poor to travel.South Islands as far as I go thsee days. I  want to shoot down there more,great country

----------


## R93

Shame, I have a similar view as you and I tend to only listen to people with identifiable international track records.  :Thumbsup: 






Not true at all but I had to say it.

----------


## el borracho

why international,some great shooters right here  :Thumbsup:

----------


## gimp

F class seems awfully uninteresting and not particularly practical.

----------


## el borracho

its ok and test's your wind calls

----------


## Kiwi Greg

> its ok and test's your wind calls


Possibly a dumb question but.... do they have wind flags in F-Class ?

----------


## Norway

F-class seams like a great oppurtunity for people to learn and sort their workstreams in a controlled environment. 

If you have trouble sorting the workload on a mowed firing line you sure as hell will struggle to do it properly in the field. I'd love to do F- class but I'd just shoot with my hunting rig.

I wouldn't care for placement but I would glean towards the best and see how far I still have to reach.

----------


## Norway

There's always someone better or someone who does certain parts better.

Competitions are a brilliant way to meet these.

----------


## Norway

I thought myself to be on top of my game a couple of times only to learn "not really".

Maybe I am now? I'm eagerly awaiting my next fall. These have in the past been very useful.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Im not going to shoot as much Fclass in the next season and spend more time in the field and hopefully at some different locations  and terrain features .*Fclass is fun but I hate shooting 36 rounds from 9-4pm long day with little trigger time*


*
*

And you wonder why so many of us are not interested in competitive shoots.

----------


## Norway

It works as well but you frequently hit performance ceilings and it will take time to identify and break through.

...recently bought a book about olympic level shooting. Bloody useful for my positionbuilding and the result reflects in ELR. (these guys shoot 6mm groups prone)

...so I wasn't on top three weeks ago but I have certainly improved since then.

----------


## Norway

Time spent vs shooting done is possibly my biggest gripe with competitions.

----------


## Gillie

> And you wonder why so many of us are not interested in competitive shoots.


Yep it is a major challenge to setting a shoot to keep people moving, shooting and interested throughout the day. Trying to set up a shoot that will sufficiently challenge all those attend and still get just about everyone good success rates is very difficult. Shoots that are simply too hard are difficult to get many people back to.

----------


## el borracho

> Im confident that F-Class would show up my flaws for F-Class.
> 
> In the mountains, I find I am rarely found under time constraints. More commonly, I am found asleep under a tree. 
> 
> I shoot varmints. They are little. They run around, and they are a long way away when thats where I look. There are many of them in the hills who know my flaws.
> 
> Im of the opinion that honest self evaluation is key to improvement. As long as your fixated on where your at, and where you want to be, and put the time in you will get better. 
> 
> I would enter competition for the fun of it, and to meet a few people. But in my experience, egos usually play a part. I couldnt be bothered.


 I really cant understand this attitude Tussock .Ego , what wrong with EGO  .Ego drives people to be better -I wonder if the alternative is tall poppy cutter syndrome -which is worse -Id rather have a big Ego , lots of confidence and get up and go

----------


## R93

> I really cant understand this attitude Tussock .Ego , what wrong with EGO  .Ego drives people to be better -I wonder if the alternative is tall poppy cutter syndrome -which is worse -Id rather have a big Ego , lots of confidence and get up and go


Ego eh? Well if Gillie does not mind I would like mention his father. He has no ego that he displayed yet would be one of the best service rifle shots I have seen. He won 5 or 6 Queens Medals with 2 different service rifles over as many years.
I remember him as a quiet unassuming bloke that went about his business quietly. He may have loved competing, but did it humbly.

----------


## el borracho

Its  the beauty of life R96 -different colours

----------


## el borracho

Let me ask you also R96 did you quest to be in a top area of the army not get driven by your ego of wanting also to be better than average -I bet it did -use your ego well and go far NA noo na noo

----------


## Savage1

> Im confident that F-Class would show up my flaws for F-Class.
> 
> In the mountains, I find I am rarely found under time constraints. More commonly, I am found asleep under a tree. 
> 
> I shoot varmints. They are little. They run around, and they are a long way away when thats where I look. There are many of them in the hills who know my flaws.
> 
> Im of the opinion that honest self evaluation is key to improvement. As long as your fixated on where your at, and where you want to be, and put the time in you will get better. 
> 
> I would enter competition for the fun of it, and to meet a few people. But in my experience, egos usually play a part. I couldnt be bothered.


I have seen very few people in shooting competitions with big egos. I am assuming it is because the people with big egos get beaten the first time and because of their egos they don't want to come back and sacrifice winning for learning. Shooting is a sport where ego/confidence makes absolutely no difference.

----------


## el borracho

A big ego doesnt mean theyre going to rub it in your face every opportunity but they might say yes I shoot very well .For some tall poppy cutter types thats just the end of the world . For me I dont give a flying rats arse -great if the person believes in themselves and confesses it so what .Confidence does help Savage1 ,it might not make you win but confidence is very important in all you do even if your not as good as you think you are.
I think youre better around a big ego than someone that want  you to be at their level and never be any different to anyone else -tall poppy cutters -a dangerous breed that dont often want to recognize themselves

----------


## Gillie

> I have seen very few people in shooting competitions with big egos. I am assuming it is because the people with big egos get beaten the first time and because of their egos they don't want to come back and sacrifice winning for learning. Shooting is a sport where ego/confidence makes absolutely no difference.


Ego and confidence are different things. To be a top level shooter confidence is absolutely necessary. The mental game of shooting when you get to the top level is everything and if you are not confident that is reflected in your score. Ego and boasting about your prowess tends to help other people shooting but not necessarily your own. I have seen very few serious competitors with big egos. In my experience you are correct Savage1, the guys with big egos don't stay with the sport. 

And Malcolm hasn't changed from your description R93. What i really like about him and a few others i have met along the way are that they queitly shoot well and are the first to help someone out or volunteer to help run a shoot as well as compete in it.

----------


## el borracho

I bet Malcom likes winning and enjoys it like every body else -it does the ego wonders to get  a few under the belt -when no ones listning he probably shouts and hops around yelling  I beat you all you lame arses "YES"  LOL

----------


## el borracho

[QUOTE=veitnamcam;29616][/I][/B]

And you wonder why so many of us are not interested in competitive shoots.[/QUOTE

Another reason for the competitive type shoot that I want to run more often on the forum is it organizes people rather than have everybody shooting aimlessly "excuse the pun" and gives a day organization and goals to achieve . Growing in ability and knowledge makes people more excited and useful to themselves when using a rifle

----------


## James

> .Ego , what wrong with EGO  .Ego drives people to be better -I wonder if the alternative is tall poppy cutter syndrome -which is worse -Id rather have a big Ego , lots of confidence and get up and go


el borracho, in part I agree with you: what you have called "tall poppy cutter syndrome" (usually just called "tall poppy syndrome" in NZ) can be a real problem.

-However, I don't believe that is necessarily the exclusive alternative to "ego". It may be an alternative to egotism, but often I believe with see the worst examples of "tall poppy syndrome" from those who are in fact 'egotistical' in nature. (usually occuring when their egos have been damaged by someone doing something better than them).

-Finally, I agree with you that "ego" may motivate some people to success. However, I believe that people can be motivated to success by its own merits, without the need for egotism. I would suggest that being motivated simply by ego may be dangerous, as a lack of 'success' would then by definition damage the ego, and potentially remove enjoyment from the activity.

-A final danger to egotism lies in the way in which it is perceived/received by society. (I'm not picking a fight here simply showing a different view): "EGO drives people to be better", but many would also argue that: 'Ego can drive people to be Dickheads, even in the face of reason'.

----------


## Norway

Interesting developmet  :Grin:  
Not quite understanding the cultural references (too see me try and pick up a kiwi girl would be hilarious to onlookers, there are palpable differences in social code if minor).

Back to the LR courses:
- No I don't think I'll hold any courses on North Island. I love SI and that is where I'll go. The courses I hold (it's not really a course) is not really anything special, they are just basic introductions - putting the marksmanship principles into a workstream. There's plenty of expertise locally to hold the same course and better as you'd have more time and can do followups. People listen to me only because of a perceived skill, but I'm not doing anything you're not - I'm just systematic.

From what little I have gleaned, kiwi shooters are lacking in confidence but not skill. Link to last course and here the shooters grasped the principles quickly and were shortly shooting head sized targets at 7-800 meters with rifles as "unsuitable" as a Remington 7. In a short span as one day is, only forced progression can be offered, leaving the shooter to pick off bad habits and assimilate on his own accord later. All I can do is to repeat the same message again and again, there's no voodoo in physics and you must have the basics. Put the basics into a workstream routine and you'll see how remarkably effective you'll shoot.

You have shooters that are technically highly proficient, hunters that are highly experienced (I have met quite a few now, and kiwi hunters are on the average as good as they come) and participants who gladly share and put in an effort for others. 

My hope is that you'd stop looking to the US motormouths, replace "Norways LR CD" with an updated local version* and put what you already have into an accessible and inclusive system.

(* I'd suggest you divide various topics out to board members, telling them to make 3-10 "childrens book pages" (tons of pics, little text), collect them, put them in order and publish as a pdf.)

----------


## Tyke

> Not quite understanding the cultural references


Dont worry mate, I dont get half of it here either. Bit like the time at work with numerous girlies around as we talked about food, I took time to reminisce about as a rookie in the job on early turn  at about 7am I used to love to tuck into a fresh juicy growler.....

Apparently it has nothing to do with pies here  :Thumbsup:

----------


## James

> On a more serious note, I like what Norway said. It was kind.


Yeah, Pretty complimentary to NZ hunters and those of you who were lucky enough to shoot with him.

----------


## Kiwi Greg

> Possibly a dumb question but.... do they have wind flags in F-Class ?


????

----------


## James

> ????


Google says "Yes" Greg:

6.9.1 Wind FlagWind flags should be displayed at various distances between the firing line and the targets.
It is recommended that the flags be placed at 200, 500 and 700 yards. It is further recommended that the flag be
48 by 18 at tip and 12 in length. This flag will be of two colors, red and yellow.

----------


## R93

> Norway, if we came to Norway, we would not stand a chance with your women Im guessing. But you clearly do lack a little knowledge of our culture. Your a tall, non disfigured man with a funny accent. Walk into a Dunedin pub at 11:50pm on Saturday and say "Hi, Im from Norway" and you could have VD by Sunday.


Had many a messy night in Dunners when the only range open in the SI was Waitati. The Cook IIRC was the local STD factory :Thumbsup:

----------


## James

> The Cook IIRC was the local STD factory


-Sure was  :Thumbsup:  For the ultimate experience: Did you ever end up stumbling into "KC's"?? It was a dodgy upstairs nightclub on George St (a 4 minute crawl from the Cook).

Universally known as "K-Sleaze" -The dodgy owner used to stand at the top of the stairs giving Lollipops to girls as they came in.....I think I nearly caught HIV from the glassware.

----------


## el borracho

> I
> 
> My hope is that you'd stop looking to the US motormouths, replace "Norways LR CD" with an updated local version* and put what you already have into an accessible and inclusive system.
> 
> (* I'd suggest you divide various topics out to board members, telling them to make 3-10 "childrens book pages" (tons of pics, little text), collect them, put them in order and publish as a pdf.)


Thats a great Idea Norway ! I tried to start a thread on wind  and mirage sometime back, adding ideas of members and other people  from around the net others had published or  vids or diagrams that were sensible and had been posted .
Sadly your CD was seen as the be all and end all of wind  and I was informed we didn't require anything else and the thread turned in to a shit fight  LOL so good to see you promoting the idea of a NZ collections of info I ll support that .
Most things in shooting are mechanical getting the basics right the only one that has a little bit of je ne sais quoi is wind -  Wind is exciting and for ever changing

----------


## Norway

My CD is outdated

----------


## R93

> -Sure was  For the ultimate experience: Did you ever end up stumbling into "KC's"?? It was a dodgy upstairs nightclub on George St (a 4 minute crawl from the Cook).
> 
> Universally known as "K-Sleaze" -The dodgy owner used to stand at the top of the stairs giving Lollipops to girls as they came in.....I think I nearly caught HIV from the glassware.


No I dont think I did James. I actually liked Dunners, very nice town and seemed to have less agro in the pubs as some places I have been. 
I reckon no one makes a lollie pop look more inviting than Salma Hayek does in the film Dogma.

----------


## gimp

> Interesting developmet  
> 
> My hope is that you'd stop looking to the US motormouths, replace "Norways LR CD" with an updated local version* and put what you already have into an accessible and inclusive system.
> 
> (* I'd suggest you divide various topics out to board members, telling them to make 3-10 "childrens book pages" (tons of pics, little text), collect them, put them in order and publish as a pdf.)



I have actually written up something similar to this, a basic "everything" guide to LR. Hesitant to post it as I have no "credentials" I can point to.

----------


## James

> No I dont think I did James. I actually liked Dunners, very nice town and seemed to have less agro in the pubs as some places I have been. 
> I reckon no one makes a lollie pop look more inviting than Salma Hayek does in the film Dogma.


..you didn't miss anything that wouldn't be fixed by a dose of antibiotics  :Wink: 

Dunners was great. Nice atmosphere in general. And very little agro in the pubs. -I ended up working security in bars for my last 3 yrs as a student there, it was pretty stress-free and usually more funny than agro.
Then I moved to Chch, and couldn't believe the agro/violence, you would have thought it was a different country- not 4 hrs up the road.


As for Selma Hayek- I hear you. I could probably watch her talk for hours...on mute.

----------


## gimp

> My CD is outdated


I'm pleased you said it.

----------


## gimp

> -Sure was  For the ultimate experience: Did you ever end up stumbling into "KC's"?? It was a dodgy upstairs nightclub on George St (a 4 minute crawl from the Cook).
> 
> Universally known as "K-Sleaze" -The dodgy owner used to stand at the top of the stairs giving Lollipops to girls as they came in.....I think I nearly caught HIV from the glassware.



KC's is closed now

----------


## James

Thankfully.

Were they still doing "$1 Doubles nights" when you were there?

----------


## gimp

I think someone decided that it was illegal.

----------


## Norway

I have no credentials either. Go for it stooopid! If you want it done, do it. Someone always has to do the breachand get things started, that is the way of things.

If you can do by example people will listen. I suggest you stay away from the subject reloading ;D

----------


## R93

> I have actually written up something similar to this, a basic "everything" guide to LR. Hesitant to post it as I have no "credentials" I can point to.



Bullshit. You should post it.

----------


## andyanimal31

I have shot with Malcom and Simon Gillice once and found them extremely humble.They didnt say much but boy Malcom just let his 223 do the talking!
That was one of the shoots that Simon organised for Taihape deer stalkers.
Once we plyed them with some of the mighty Taihape truth serum did we draw some of their secrets out of them!
I must say it takes all sorts from large egos dickheads know alls smart bastards funny bastards lip draggers good c%unts    you name it but at the end of the day i have enjoyed 99% of the people i have met competitively and learn a shit load as well.
I am lucky as i can go and shoot at work pinging magpies hares rabbits and the odd sqawking bird so it does not worry me just shooting 20 shots for the day at a small comp.
There are arguments for both sides but if you dont have a go you will never know.
I wanted to try marriage so did that the other day, I have never been divorced so at least i can try that  now if the need arises!
See you at the next central north island gong shoot that me and plilipo are supposed to be organising!

----------


## el borracho

> I have actually written up something similar to this, a basic "everything" guide to LR. Hesitant to post it as I have no "credentials" I can point to.


post it Gimp always good to read someone else s ideas .The thing is plenty here know how to do most things but many don't and they will learn from it and of course it can always be added to !!

----------


## James

> I wanted to try marriage so did that the other day, I have never been divorced so at least i can try that  now if the need arises!



-Have you read KIWIGREG's forum signature line?  :Wink: 

Ps. Congratulations on getting hitched  :Thumbsup:

----------


## veitnamcam

Spent many a messy night at kcs and the cook and a couple of others,used to love docking in dunners. If a man with a wallet full of cash cant pull a root in dunners there is no hope :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 

Post it up Gimp.

----------


## gimp

I'll do it up as a PDF and post it when I'm back home next, it's on my laptop and I've only got iPad here. Much of it is influenced by Norway's method

----------


## gimp

> I suggest you stay away from the subject reloading ;D



Hahaha good call

----------


## el borracho

Something that Norway has done on film that I enjoy alot is foliage movement and different wind strengths -its great to be able to visulize these things and go to the field and watch and call wind

----------


## andyanimal31

> -Have you read KIWIGREG's forum signature line? 
> 
> Ps. Congratulations on getting hitched


I certainly have and more than a touch of truth to it i suspect!
Philipo  came and made sure ther was a forum presence at the subsequent piss up for my birthday slash wedding and got appropiatly rat faced
Next shoot we will book  some decent weather as 23 mph at a thousand was a bit of a challenge!

----------


## gimp

I never had a printer. Writing it on a bit of paper worked. Now I've got fancy made-in-excel ones.

----------


## Norway

> I'll do it up as a PDF and post it when I'm back home next, it's on my laptop and I've only got iPad here.


Do that and in accordance with the tall poppy syndrome we'll prepare to club you down as best we can  :Grin:

----------


## el borracho

youd better not make it to good gimp or watch out

Tall poppy syndrome (TPS) is a pejorative term primarily used in New Zealand's south Island to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticized because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers.

----------


## Norway

I know, there was a hint of humour. "Prepare to shrug it off and do your thing Gimp" was the message. It doesn't matter who you are or how nice you are, there will ALWAYS be a fair percentage that doesn't like you. The trick is not paying to much intention to them, but rather focus on the rest.

You don't picnic right next to the only dog turd in the park do you?

----------


## el borracho

I doubt there will be a single negative comment ,and I for one look forward to reading gimps analysis

----------


## R93

> youd better not make it to good gimp or watch out
> 
> Tall poppy syndrome (TPS) is a pejorative term primarily used in New Zealand's south Island to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticized because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers.


If you seriously describe yourself like the above, it is no wonder. Hilarious!

----------


## Kiwi Greg

> Google says "Yes" Greg:
> 
> 6.9.1 Wind FlagWind flags should be displayed at various distances between the firing line and the targets.
> It is recommended that the flags be placed at 200, 500 and 700 yards. It is further recommended that the flag be
> 48 by 18 at tip and 12 in length. This flag will be of two colors, red and yellow.


Thanks James, 

So getting back to an earlier post, F class has flags so that is very handy, shooting at animals in the feild is generally flag-less so you need to try & read the vegetation, stuff in the air, animals fur/hair, etc it also has angles, so what you are trying to read can be a long way from the ground, quite a lot removed from F-class target shooting really...... not saving it wouldn't be helpful though  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## el borracho

> If you seriously describe yourself like the above, it is no wonder. Hilarious!


your verging on tall poppy syndrome r93 -those with it will not even notice it flow from there fingertips onto the forum because they just feel subconsciously agrieved  
 :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

----------


## R93

> your verging on tall poppy syndrome r93 -those with it will not even notice it flow from there fingertips onto the forum because they just feel subconsciously agrieved


No, I dont think so EL B. I will admit now that I am average at most things I do and above average at none :Wink:  Oh...maybe one thing, coz people seem to keep calling me one.

----------


## el borracho

Im bloody excellent in my own mind at everything I do -reality may be different !! lol :Wink:

----------


## el borracho

> He would need to think you were a tall poppy before being motivated to chop you.


only tall  poppys can see it happening-ill let you know when :Thumbsup:

----------


## Norway

So much for a productive thread. I had such hopes :-p

----------


## el borracho

HaHA Dont sweat it Norway it will come good its just some of the boys like to have a chop and don't even know it LOL.
The thread originally was abouta  long range shooting course -of course ! I think they are worth doing but it needs to be proven worth while .Is it worth going ? well that depends what you want from that course -I would pay for a shooting course based in different terrain with an expert wind caller .As many can see this is the most interesting thing to me to make first shot hits at distance -why first shot hits -because it means I am doing something right !

----------


## Norway

I can smell the yellow man-water from across the globe...



... literary, the cleaning staff haven't done the toilets at work yet.

... Since I'm at 67 North and you are somewhere south, does that mean I by default piss higher than you ???

----------


## el borracho

that depends if you think north is the top or bottom

Norway what do you think of shooting courses ? I believe you teach in your own country

----------


## Norway

To believe does not make it true. 

What on earth are you really asking about?

----------


## el borracho

your opinion on shooting courses .There are many types  and do they offer enough to spend big dollars ?I am told you take or teach courses in Norway  so you would have an educated opinion on them,I have never attended one mind you we dont have any here as such

----------


## Norway

My unfiltered opinion:

They are offered by motormouth for military wankers.

Enlist, get the proper training and go kill people for real in a government sanctioned way and in defence of your comrades.

Otherwise, join the local club and get the technical proficiency required for all shooting.

----------


## el borracho

Fair answer .I have been dazzled in the past  by all there is learn as a non military person by ex soldiers who teach courses  - often their credentialed are displayed to say they can teach you more than you can learn yourself at a club or by a knowledgeable  peer who shoots .
I am confident with much of my shooting to help others but also not arrogant enough not to listen to good advice .The only thing that is a constant battle is wind calls for first round hits and that is just something I enjoy doing

----------


## veitnamcam

> HaHA Dont sweat it Norway it will come good its just some of the boys like to have a chop and don't even know it LOL.
> The thread originally was abouta  long range shooting course -of course ! I think they are worth doing but it needs to be proven worth while .Is it worth going ? well that depends what you want from that course -*I would pay for a shooting course based in different terrain with an expert wind caller* .As many can see this is the most interesting thing to me to make first shot hits at distance -why first shot hits -because it means I am doing something right !


So you only like to listen to people with a track record of winning shooting competitions.
Shooting competitions in the mountains are pretty rare unless you count the "bet you cant hit that rock over there" "bet I can" type and these dont usually end with a prize giving unless you count a impromptu hand full of dry wild animal shit being thrown at someone.

So you want a proven competition winner who is an expert mountain wind caller(if there is such a thing) to hold a course for preferably nothing in little ol NZ.........................Choosy much?

Best way to learn about wind in the mountains is spend some time up them..... Hunting would be as good a excuse as any. :Wink:

----------


## el borracho

Problem with Auckland Vietnamcam is we don't have those beautiful big shingle slope mountains .with a miss you can easily see the strike and make changes .I gotta say im at some months off 50 I am not even slightly as fit as I once was and having one knee and a wobbly joint to much time in the mountains would eventually mean a full knee reconstruction other wise I would come hunting down your way -I am not a hunter but would . 
Taking advice from winners is usually a good idea -now winner may just mean someone that I know that shoots well -you see everybody has an opinion and I have mates that eyes just bounce together as they splurge crap but they still think they're correct - you cant take advice from everyone! I shoot shitloads to -so much I'm broke at the moment but not in all the conditions and terrain I would like but that just means more traveling --remember boys if your ever in Auckland I am more than glad to take you plinking , hospitality means a lot to me

----------


## gimp

> Ever seen a body builder run up a hill? Me neither.



I don't get it.

----------


## James

> I don't get it.


I read it as: Some of the guys you see associated with such courses are massive body-builders in camo fatigue pants/tight black tee shirts. They are massively built, but they are also often claiming to be soldiers. ...and soldiers need to be able to run up hills- in order to get places, and avoid the whole 'death' thing.

....I think it ties back to his statement about "paramilitary wannabe wankers".

----------


## gimp

> So you only like to listen to people with a track record of winning shooting competitions.
> Shooting competitions in the mountains are pretty rare unless you count the "bet you cant hit that rock over there" "bet I can" type and these dont usually end with a prize giving unless you count a impromptu hand full of dry wild animal shit being thrown at someone.
> 
> So you want a proven competition winner who is an expert mountain wind caller(if there is such a thing) to hold a course for preferably nothing in little ol NZ.........................Choosy much?
> 
> Best way to learn about wind in the mountains is spend some time up them..... Hunting would be as good a excuse as any.


2012 STEEL SAFARI - - COMPETITION DYNAMICS

A competition like this would be very cool. A lot of fun, and test your skills in a very practical, directly translating to hunting, type of way.

I intend to run one when I have the time.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/steel-safari-2010/?p=1

http://demigodllc.com/articles/blue-...el-safari-2006

http://demigodllc.com/articles/blue-...el-safari-2007

http://demigodllc.com/articles/color...el-safari-2008


One of these links explains the concept well but my internet is too slow to load any of them.

----------


## el borracho

> I don't get it.


tussock just likes to see large muscled men run lol

Zak does Great stuff for sure but we have a contest in Tekapo that is worthy of participating in Gunslinger -it was fricken awesome!!!
Even my own gong shoot is a carry and walk to the targets ,nothing like Zaks shoot which is very cool

These are some more photos of the Gunslinger shooting down into the valley from 700 -just under one mile away .
Thats me with a spotting scope in the Green

----------


## gimp

I have no real interest in shooting at 1 mile, it's far from what I consider practical shooting and I don't have a rifle capable of shooting that far (Because of this lack of interest). I would participate in one of the Gunslinger events with more realistic ranges such as the upcoming "hunter challenge" or whatever it's called if I knew I'd be off work then, but I don't know that yet so I won't be registering.

----------


## Gillie

> 2012 STEEL SAFARI - - COMPETITION DYNAMICS
> 
> A competition like this would be very cool. A lot of fun, and test your skills in a very practical, directly translating to hunting, type of way.
> 
> I intend to run one when I have the time.


This style of course is surprisingly difficult. I ran a medium to long range course under this format in Rotorua a couple or three months ago. Learnt some lessons on how to run them. Out of the ten invited competitors i had there only really four were serious and of them only one got over halfway on points. Planning making the next one a bit easier. One competitor (who ended up 2nd overall) made 7 from 14 first shots on targets ranging from 350m to 960m. I made 5 first round hits from 14 and the first place getter only made 4!

----------


## el borracho

i missed the mile shots-not by a lot but missed never the less.This shoot had shorter distances also , in fact two separate distance contest running at the same time .We flew onto the top of the hill and walked from point to point to shoot with a range officer awaiting us at each point .40 shooters in all participated and all raved about it -it is NZ best long range event bar none

----------


## el borracho

> This style of course is surprisingly difficult. I ran a medium to long range course under this format in Rotorua a couple or three months ago. Learnt some lessons on how to run them. Out of the ten invited competitors i had there only really four were serious and of them only one got over halfway on points. Planning making the next one a bit easier. One competitor (who ended up 2nd overall) made 7 from 14 first shots on targets ranging from 350m to 960m. I made 5 first round hits from 14 and the first place getter only made 4!


what distances are you shooting Ghille and prone//standing/leaning?

----------


## gimp

> This style of course is surprisingly difficult. I ran a medium to long range course under this format in Rotorua a couple or three months ago. Learnt some lessons on how to run them. Out of the ten invited competitors i had there only really four were serious and of them only one got over halfway on points. Planning making the next one a bit easier. One competitor (who ended up 2nd overall) made 7 from 14 first shots on targets ranging from 350m to 960m. I made 5 first round hits from 14 and the first place getter only made 4!



Please post on here next time you run something, I'd be interested to attend...


How did you run the scoring, if the winner only made 4 first round hits? More than 1 shot per target allowed I guess? Or greater weighting for longer targets?

----------


## Spanners

> Do you have to wear matching camo? 
> 
> Who are they hiding from?


Zombies...

----------


## Gillie

> what distances are you shooting Ghille and prone//standing/leaning?


All prone, distance were as i mentioned - 350m to 960m. Long shots were accross two seperate gullies with almost no wind indicators (old man pines and short grass...) and a mean cross wind. Couldn't even spot misses in the grass. Afterwards some guys mentioned some positional shooting would be good as well - sitting, standing and the like. I have a few ideas on how to integrate this shooting into the event as well.

----------


## gimp

> i missed the mile shots-not by a lot but missed never the less.This shoot had shorter distances also , in fact two separate distance contest running at the same time .We flew onto the top of the hill and walked from point to point to shoot with a range officer awaiting us at each point .40 shooters in all participated and all raved about it -it is NZ best long range event bar none



The helicopter to the hill seems like an unnecessary expense and doesn't exactly scream practical shooting to me. Not hard to be the best when there aren't really any others....

I'm not meaning to be too critical, I would like to shoot one of these events when I get the chance, just don't think they're run quite how I would do it.... and I intend to give running something a go myself when I have the time.

----------


## gimp

I hate camouflage when target shooting. You see it at the NZDA range in Dunedin all the time. Fat old men in realmossydipshitadvantagecamo polarfleece trousers, sighting in at the range. It's so... unnecessary

----------


## el borracho

> Do you have to wear matching camo? 
> 
> Who are they hiding from?


all the french contingent came fully decked out in matching camo

----------


## James

> Who are they hiding from?


Tame Iti and the others who were training for "security work in the Middle East"??

...oh wait, 'Gunslinger' is in the South Island.

----------


## gimp

> You are a bizzare snob. Its not the wearing of camo, its the wearing of THE WRONG CAMO that bugs you. If they were in the latest fandangled digicam would that be ok?



Nope it's just as weird and dumb. I don't like wearing camo unless I'm trying to hide from something.

----------


## el borracho

It doesn't  worry me what people wear as long as they're comfortable- camo clothes are all good & cant see the dislike of them myself

----------


## Norway

What's wrong with camo? I'd wear it but presently the best weatherprotection is not found in any camo gear.

I do find it hilarious when K see highdollar tactical rings without the owner having bothered to learn shooting. That's just wanker bling.

----------


## Norway

Bloody phone neyboard

----------


## 7mmsaum

Those little buttons are a uck fup waiting to happen.

----------


## gimp

> Clearly your phone keyboard is worse than mine.
> 
> Every time I see Gimp wearing camo while not actively hiding, Im posting it on here.


Your posting rate isn't going to increase greatly then.


I dunno I just don't like it. It's ok to wear a jacket or whatever but when people show up in full camo suits at the range I find it a bit odd. I freely admit that I have some weird baseless prejudices and many and varied other character flaws.

----------


## gimp

Both photos show my baldness quite well.



To be fair, I was hunting while wearing my multicam jacket (it's not digicam).

----------


## Norway

> Both photos show my baldness quite well.


So what you really need is a camo cap then?

And I forgot to add in my previous post regarding bling:
... and are resistant to learning. Not to mention shoot or get water on their military grade abuse built rifle.

----------


## gimp

> So what you really need is a camo cap then?





I don't think that would be allowed in a muay thai fight.

----------


## Norway

Dudes, don't be so hard on the Gunslinger event - it is agood initiative that fills a need.

You might night agree with the profile or organizing (there are certainly "nonsense" items on the website) but it is an overall good initiative that get people shooting.

----------


## Norway

Hmm I see the tiny phonescreen hypa-active me makes. Feel the force of Samsung!

----------


## el borracho

> Dudes, don't be so hard on the Gunslinger event - it is agood initiative that fills a need.
> 
> You might night agree with the profile or organizing (there are certainly "nonsense" items on the website) but it is an overall good initiative that get people shooting.


Norway i posted some pics of the event page 10 on this thread.
What would you consider nonsense items?

----------


## el borracho

thats a bummer as some good pics-i didnt take them

----------


## Norway

Read the bit about spotting. A far cry from the service it mimics.

----------


## gimp

You can set your posts per page to be longer than default in your options. Makes it way easier to navigate threads. I'm showing us up to the 5th page of this thread right now.

----------


## Norway

... And I revisited Gunslingerwebsite which now is updated to start dialogue with Miss/Hit. But they still make it slow & long

----------


## el borracho

its there to give the average joe a clue i think to how things run,doesn't need to be taken as gospel

----------


## Norway

They put it there as "SOP" which translates to something firmer than a gospel.

And a SOP should at least point in a sound direction.

It is very theoretical  but much improved from what it was initially.

----------


## Norway

OMG!!! I've become a Tussock clone!!!!  :Grin:

----------


## Norway

... The Force in a Samsung!

----------


## Norway

> Read the bit about spotting. A far cry from the service it mimics.


... and forgot the CQB (close quarter battle) part...

----------


## Norway

That actually happens.

----------


## Norway

Ok. I was talking about the kind they obviously try to mimic and do battle with.

----------


## gimp

Wire is an awful way of hanging them. Don't know why we kept using it. I've got a much better idea.

----------


## el borracho

Im lost what are you guys referring to hanging wire ?  Gunslinger is the only current competitive long range event which has an online presence and should be supported as much as possible -like the saying goes use or lose it !

----------


## el borracho

Would you eather the shooting community didnthave this fantastic long range contest structure tussock

----------


## crzyman

Do your get a free blowjob for every time you give shane a plug?..

----------


## el borracho

> Do your get a free blowjob for every time you give shane a plug?..


Crazyman , you should really get over the  "so called bad history " What has he done to you or  any others that is so bad that you feel so agrieved to hang shit on him when possible  ?????
The  guy  has done a great things for competitive longrange shooters in NZ , even  this sites own sponsors like Dead Eye Dicks endorse it as do other companies that in reality get little trade from it but they see the long term value in a tremendous set of compititions that Shane Cossar has organized for the shooting community .

Bury the hatchet and participate in a something you know youd enjoy and we can have a beer togeather  and laugh at what a jerk youve been toward Shane who is such a gentleman and enthusiastic guy toward our sport and what a jerk I am anyway LOL  :Thumbsup:

----------


## leathel

> Norway i posted some pics of the event page 10 on this thread.
> What would you consider nonsense items?


Nice spot that too....much more interesting to drive up  :Psmiley: 



That shot was taken not far from the fence shot you have  :Wink:  

well at least I am 99% sure

----------


## el borracho

I tell you walking down the hill I was stuffed -never used the stopping down hill muscles in my legs and I couldnt walk properly for days -fitter guys than me felt it to .Its a pretty spot especially with the afternoon sun on the hills , I look forward to the event next year - you going ?

----------


## leathel

> I tell you walking down the hill I was stuffed -never used the stopping down hill muscles in my legs and I couldnt walk properly for days -fitter guys than me felt it to .Its a pretty spot especially with the afternoon sun on the hills , I look forward to the event next year - you going ?


Nup spent some time on the station a few years back but just for pleasure....I walked from there to the high point then back to the scree slope on the top right corner of your fist pic....from the top it looked to go all the way down for an easy out....but no at least I had a ride at the bottom and didn't have to walk back to the house....

----------


## Spanners

> Crazyman , you should really get over the  "so called bad history " What has he done to you or  any others that is so bad that you feel so agrieved to hang shit on him when possible  ?????


Its only 'so called' because you werent involved in it when it was going on.
There are more people on this forum who raised a middle finger to it than actually shot it even when the price was dropped to under 10% of original ie $20
You dont believe me and obviously anyone else who says the same
Noone that has put a LR event on has required ~$200 for you to come and shoot, justifying it with 'my flights and accommodation need paying'
We were all participating in something for free long before he even brought a rifle.




> The  guy  has done a great things for competitive longrange shooters in NZ


Its only you that seems to see it that way - all hes done is pad is pockets - not as much as he wanted to though.

I believe that maybe people here taught him how to shoot?

----------


## el borracho

You guys have such a problem with someone making money for the effort they put into something  :Wtfsmilie: 
200 dollars for the event I went to was money well spent -ask any member on here that has attended the Tekapo event and see what they say especially once you saw how much went into the organization of this event .

What did Crazy man do that for Shane that he thinks he owes him his left testy for ever and ever amen -nothing I bet !! . Cut the small minded  miserable whining about something that didn't actually happen and support the best long range comp in the country .

I think this is just a perfect case of tall poppy syndrome , nothing more than that !! Its not as though you my friend Spanner earn so little you cant afford to pay for a pass to a comp like this ! Now , what about if people hung shit on you for making a small profit for your efforts importing projos and bits ? Stuff that !you deserve to be compensated for your effort as does Shane .
And as far as some here taught him how to shoot -so what , does he owe them something for that ??? I help guys all the time for free 
The only dead horse being beat here is one of bad attitude from certain forum member toward a really top bloke

----------


## Spanners

Condensed - along the lines of this

"this event that I've been so good to organise and you're all keen for, its going to cost you $200 now"
what for?
"targets, my time, my accommodation, my flights, profit, $20ea for lunch, $40ea for prizes, $5 a rd for the ammo on the stage you shoot my gun, and $200 for the bottle of scotch I'll drink afterwards - oh and BTW you cant shoot most of your guns in calibres that are needed to get to the distances shot"
*crickets*
"fuck you all - its cancelled and I'm outahere- off for a cry"

Its not got anything to do with being able to afford it or not - I was ready to go, the flights alone were over $600 for me, and then a rental or hitching a ride
It wasnt a small profit, it was a big one.
Plain and simple... and if thats not how it went, then explain why everyone then decided to raise the middle digit to it and not go?
IIRC there was another shoot organised after that and held the same w/e for free with more attendees.

----------


## el borracho

''WE'' you and a few other misery's bearers!Discourage participants -don't think so !!!! Last event full and with 10 foreign guest participating -Amazing event that functioned very well due to a massive bit of organizing .This is an event that will grow and offers good value to a participant as an event -- Tussock it is best you don't come as your mind set would fit anyway ,this event is about positive and people that get up and go -you know people that actually do it !!

----------


## el borracho

> Condensed - along the lines of this
> 
> "this event that I've been so good to organise and you're all keen for, its going to cost you $200 now"
> what for?
> "targets, my time, my accommodation, my flights, profit, $20ea for lunch, $40ea for prizes, $5 a rd for the ammo on the stage you shoot my gun, and $200 for the bottle of scotch I'll drink afterwards - oh and BTW you cant shoot most of your guns in calibres that are needed to get to the distances shot"
> *crickets*
> "fuck you all - its cancelled and I'm outahere- off for a cry"
> 
> Its not got anything to do with being able to afford it or not - I was ready to go, the flights alone were over $600 for me, and then a rental or hitching a ride
> ...


Spanners , I dont know if this was Shane's first attempt at doing a comp he may have been trying to find his feet and what was a reasonable market rate for his input which given there may be little to compare to - He obviously thought it not worth the effort if some guys weren't keen to cover his costs that he considered reasonable -well after several successful contest he has found his footing and a place in the shooting market for his events yet a few people want to keep there foot on his throat and make snide comments for what sensible reason if not just small mindedness ??

----------


## Spanners

You insist on continually jacking him off all the time here, where its plainly obvious that noone here is interested, nor were after the 1st episode.
He thought it was not worth the effort as NOONE was interested in paying for his gear.

Was a nice looking sandwich but smelled like shit - and unfortunately you only remember the taste

----------


## Norway

Instead of bickering, can't Gunslingers be relegated to a section for paid advertisement?

It is after all a business taking money for a service and should perhaps be delineated as such to separete it from forum events?
Forum members interested in being customers of that business can go to that section, and forum members interested in participated in forum events can use the forum to find the events.

Just thinking out loud, I find the bickering unattractive, and if the number of participant in this thread is an indicator others do too...

----------


## leathel

> Instead of bickering, can't Gunslingers be relegated to a section for paid advertisement?
> 
> It is after all a business taking money for a service and should perhaps be delineated as such to separete it from forum events?
> Forum members interested in being customers of that business can go to that section, and forum members interested in participated in forum events can use the forum to find the events.
> 
> Just thinking out loud, I find the bickering unattractive, and if the number of participant in this thread is an indicator others do too...


Well put!

----------


## el borracho

[QUOTE=Spanners;30429]You insist on continually jacking him off all the time here, where its plainly obvious that noone here is interested, nor were after the 1st episode.
He thought it was not worth the effort as NOONE was interested in paying for his gear.

Was a nice looking sandwich but smelled like shit - and unfortunately you only remember the taste[/QUOTE]

There are several members here that shoot the Gunslinger Comps including sponsors on the site.Jacking Shane off-lol nah just supporting something that grows our sport in a positive way-Shane is giving us a platform to play togeather

----------


## el borracho

> Instead of bickering, can't Gunslingers be relegated to a section for paid advertisement?
> 
> It is after all a business taking money for a service and should perhaps be delineated as such to separete it from forum events?
> Forum members interested in being customers of that business can go to that section, and forum members interested in participated in forum events can use the forum to find the events.
> 
> Just thinking out loud, I find the bickering unattractive, and if the number of participant in this thread is an indicator others do too...


Norway , I have no financial interest in Gunslinger events -I am a participant like some others on this forum at these excellent events - it pisses me seeing snide comments about a  good guy and a great competition platform because someone got upset by the original costs the organizer wanted -a guys has to find his feet right ! I imagine you would defend some one you know that shouldn't be being slagged off also -type of guy I am !

----------


## Spanners

> ...  good guy and a great competition platform...


You seem to be the only one who sees it this way.

BTW, the 'sponsors' here pay for advertising, and thus are 'paying advertisers'

----------


## el borracho

No Spanners I am not , both the man and his comps are very well respected by members here that compete in them you just dont know them .
Of course advertisers should pay but that's not in dispute  is it as no one is formally trying to sell tickets just tell of their great experiences from a shooting perspective for our type of shooting which is entertained at this event .
Lets face it it is not about that anyway it is just you guys cant get over something you all should have put behind you years ago  - nothing more or less !

----------


## Norway

But you should consider the financial aspect of this. You have seen some of my blogs and might have noted that the view numbers are not very high. To use myself as an example and quote some numbers:

-The shooting mat. "Everyone" uses it now, even at indoor ranges.
-The cheekrest. Went from 20 sold total to 400/ year.
-The bipodpin. Increasing sales, manufacturer backordered.
-The boltknob. Suddenly sells, been on the market for years and years.
-Duracoat. Sales up xxx percent.
-PMII scopes. Used to be a special import, now keep a selection on the shelf and finding it difficult to stock enough scopes
-The rear bag. 1/2 crate sold so far this year (the truck kind crate)

That adds up to a LOT of money for the sellers. I see none of that money even though I help build the market and to be honest have a rather large expense doing it (edit: I kill one or two cameras each year with the abuse). New of this year is people contacting me wanting me to use their gear. A few of these offers are interesting and I'm likely to shake hands , most I can't be bothered with - I use what gear I bought & believe in and everyone that's helped me so far is small businesses (of the one-man-in-a-garage type, A-tec excepted). 

Is it worth it? Yes, LR shooting is almost a lifestyle choice for me. I get to met a lot of like-minded people, talk to manufacturers and my own skillset is ever expanding.
Could I make money off it? Of course, but why be a prostitute for peanuts? It wouldn't affect my lifestyle, have an economic impact of significance or open up new choices. I make my money elsewhere, not on forums.
Do I get free gear? Yes, probably could get a lot of trinkets out of it but whyyyyyyy?

But I'm not naive with regards to money, if you want to buy a service off me I present a four figure bill at the end of the day - I don't hide my profit or pass it off as anything but a sale of services. There is A LOT of money being made off LR these days and a business shouldn't be passed off as an idealist organisation.

----------


## gimp

The bipod pin is a good idea. I posted about how good 'tactical' bolt knobs are in like mid 2008 and everyone made fun of me.  :Sad:  guess I'm not influential.


Also I maintain that you copied me with the redtacgear rear bag  :Grin:

----------


## el borracho

I would agree with all you have said Norway about others making money that sell product -the shops here do OK I wouldnt think to many are making alot out of the Long range crew as we import a lot .You must understand we target type shooters are not a big percentage in the shooting community overall -most are hunters - I doubt id be wrong in saying 98% are hunters not target minded shooters .
A contest like Gunslinger doesn't have a big effect on sales in reality -me mentioning Gunslinger has in no way an intent to push tickets only to push our wonderful sport .I have an enthusiasm to see my sport and passion grow  hence why I will run my own events for the good of others and also give rave reviews about the Tekapo contest which is fantastic!!

----------


## Spanners

> No, we made fun of you because you sent your "tactical" bolt knob to an NZ "gunsmith" who chopped half your bolt handle off. Thats hilarious.


Hahaha - where the chode pic??  :Grin:

----------


## gimp

> No, we made fun of you because you sent your "tactical" bolt knob to an NZ "gunsmith" who chopped half your bolt handle off. Thats hilarious.


I always referred to it as an 'oversize' bolt knob because calling things tactical invites other people to call them 'tacti-cool' and I really really hate that word for some reason. Also 'tactical' is quite meaningless.

And the fucked up bolt handle was like a year later.

----------


## Cyclist

> The bipod pin is a good idea. I posted about how good 'tactical' bolt knobs are in like mid 2008 and everyone made fun of me.  guess I'm not influential.


Please let someone be able to find a pic of Gimps "Short throw" tactical bolt knob  :Pacman:

----------


## DAF

> Please let someone be able to find a pic of Gimps "Short throw" tactical bolt knob

----------


## gimp

> Please let someone be able to find a pic of Gimps "Short throw" tactical bolt knob




I've got one but in my Internet is too slow.

Edit: See?

----------


## Norway

Suggestion:
Instead of slagging the G event, organize a competing event.

I'll help you organize the event (stages/planning/organizing).

You do all the legwork and see what $ fee you can pull it off at.

Im sure it can be challenging, interesting and educational. You have to make it safe, accessible, smooth and cheap.

Any takers?

----------


## Spanners

> Attachment 2375


Owww.. and anyone got the pic of the cock on the stock with the bolt handle? thats some classic shit there - almost as good as Gimps hammer reloading  :Grin:

----------


## Cyclist

Tacti-fuckin-cool baby - its about as mint as this

----------


## gimp

> Suggestion:
> Instead of slagging the G event, organize a competing event.
> 
> I'll help you organize the event (stages/planning/organizing).
> 
> You do all the legwork and see what $ fee you can pull it off at.
> 
> Im sure it can be challenging, interesting and educational. You have to make it safe, accessible, smooth and cheap.
> 
> Any takers?


See PMs..

----------


## el borracho

> Suggestion:
> Instead of slagging the G event, organize a competing event.
> 
> I'll help you organize the event (stages/planning/organizing).
> 
> You do all the legwork and see what $ fee you can pull it off at.
> 
> Im sure it can be challenging, interesting and educational. You have to make it safe, accessible, smooth and cheap.
> 
> Any takers?


your very generous Norway and this will be interesting. Are you suggesting an on going type event  like Gunslinger.I'm sure those who think Gunslinger is a rip off will front up and find it a breeze :Thumbsup:

----------


## Normie

> Owww.. and anyone got the pic of the cock on the stock with the bolt handle? thats some classic shit there - almost as good as Gimps hammer reloading


Closest I could find

----------


## gimp

> your very generous Norway and this will be interesting. Are you suggesting an on going type event  like Gunslinger.I'm sure those who think Gunslinger is a rip off will front up and find it a breeze


I don't think anyone is implying that shooting the Gunsllinger events wouldn't be a challenge.

----------


## el borracho

Gimp shooting it is easy and fun , organizing it WOW that's one big job!! I have talked to Shane about it and it takes ages and a lot of effort and traveling

----------


## el borracho

> We were running shoots before he was. Just trim the fat. Minimum helicopters and dont import heavy steel targets from the states for $30000 when you can have them made in a local machine shop for $2000. Or make them yourselves from scrap for nothing.


you going to pay the $2000 Tussock for the targets ? Helicopters ride up the hill is only if you want it and well worth while not having to walk the hill -not all are young fit buck rats!
I can run a small shoot also but not one on the scale of Tekapo , you need many hands and co-ordernation - half the shoots most have your lucky to get many members at let alone have them not shoot and act as range officers all day while others have fun .Remmber this aint a one position shoot but all over a mountain side and in the valley also

----------


## el borracho

lets not sweat the first aid and see a well organized interesting shoot organized first eh.

----------


## R93

Well, if it is a commercial venture and you do not have actions on and first response, it isnt very well organised is it?.

----------


## el borracho

Look forward to seeing how this develops and seeing a COF

----------


## Norway

I paid $2000 for the first range. Built it, financed it in one summer and handed it over to the shooters.
Second range was $6000. Built it and left it open for all to use but remained in control of that one.

I believe Tussock already has steel after the first NZ shoot we had ? It was organized per internet as well.
Gimp has taken it upon himself organize stages, his suggestions are good and I've organized a fair amount of shoots up to a few hundred shooters, so should be able to put something up.

If it'll be Gunslinger type I don't know, never been to one as I didn't want to work for them. The extension of that would be someone else striking coin on my work, which I have expressly forbidden with the CD etc. Initial plan is to get Tussock out of earshot and help Gimp get a workflow that is managable by 2 or 3. 

Then they can set a date, get sponsors, prices and prizes etc.

*I will stipulate that in exchange for my help the prize rules will be:
Best performers get some sort of recognition for their skill
Physical sponsor prizes is divided by lottery - anyone can walk away with the prize regardless of how well they shot. The only requirement is that they participated.*

----------


## el borracho

> Well, if it is a commercial venture and you do not have actions on and first response, it isnt very well organised is it?.


You would have to come to the next  one and stub your toe and see how its handled R93

----------


## el borracho

> I don't think we will be calling anything a COF.


Why not,its good to understand whats involved in the shoot-as well as round count.we not talking a single position plink here

----------


## el borracho

> I paid $2000 for the first range. Built it, financed it in one summer and handed it over to the shooters.
> Second range was $6000. Built it and left it open for all to use but remained in control of that one.
> 
> I believe Tussock already has steel after the first NZ shoot we had ? It was organized per internet as well.
> Gimp has taken it upon himself organize stages, his suggestions are good and I've organized a fair amount of shoots up to a few hundred shooters, so should be able to put something up.
> 
> If it'll be Gunslinger type I don't know, never been to one as I didn't want to work for them. The extension of that would be someone else striking coin on my work, which I have expressly forbidden with the CD etc.


Now that's awesome Norway,youre very generous!I get the shits with shooters whacking my steel ,breaking it and when i turn up having to fix it all

----------


## Spanners

Do you just want to put camo on and play army man??

----------


## el borracho

strange comment Spanners,was it some sort of kinky invite :36 1 8: ?

----------


## R93

> You would have to come to the next  one and stub your toe and see how its handled R93




No thanks, I have seen enough carnage and poorly handled injurys that lead to death to last me a life time.

----------


## el borracho

yeah ,that's what I was hoping- who this Marc Whalberg? COF is a very normal word for a shooting event of this type.Now is there a special dress code also as camo is un cool

----------


## Norway

Moderator, please close the thread. It is just a pissmatch now.

----------


## el borracho

> No thanks, I have seen enough carnage and poorly handled injurys that lead to death to last me a life time.


understood r93,but for your info Tekapo had an RO on every station with a radio and all had at least a 1 hour plus safety and organizationl brief before the event

----------


## R93

> If you want an afternoon of legitimate grown up army make believe, I think you can't go past paintball myself.



Na, an afternoon of being abused as I administer foot drill. It would definitely be Dads Army with you lot. I miss yelling at cunts and it being considered normal :Thumbsup:

----------


## el borracho

> Moderator, please close the thread. It is just a pissmatch now.


an attack match-same crew

----------


## R93

> understood r93,but for your info Tekapo had an RO on every station with a radio and all had at least a 1 hour plus safety and organizationl brief before the event



Why didnt you say that when saftey was first mentioned. Sounds way better than first made out.

----------


## el borracho

> Na, an afternoon of being abused as I administer foot drill. It would definitely be Dads Army with you lot. I miss yelling at cunts and it being considered normal


you still fit as

----------


## el borracho

I hope Norway we can the BS on the thread and get a serious match happening

----------


## R93

> you still fit as



I would say a lot fitter than the average person my age. I even have abs! I had a big mono ab six months ago tho.
You dont have to be fit to abuse troops on the drill square tho, just yell and scream a lot, its fun

----------


## el borracho

i just lost 16kgs-need to lose 16 more and ill same weight as i ws 30yrs ago.im a lazy SOB though

----------


## el borracho

ive never done paint ball but it sounds like fun if not potentially painful if your not good -R93 my be the wrong guy to paint ball against!

----------


## NZHTR

> Gimp shooting it is easy and fun ,  organizing it WOW that's one big job!! I have talked to Shane about it and it takes ages and a lot of effort and traveling


Sounds like some one trying to turn a corner dairy into a super market here el-b , is a fart arse shoot like this such a big deal to event ? im not sure .the whole thing has a funny look to it form my angle - kinda like up skilling hit men for the brownie's . if i had 30 k to spend on targets they look very familia to animals we hunt here in NZ .

----------


## Norway

We usually run competition for 50-60 with three people. 7-8 to take on 3-400 shooters.

... Shooting competitions is a big thing in Norway. The nationals attract 5-7000 shooters...

It is not hard to pull off a well organized shoot.

----------


## el borracho

its funny Norway as I remember the late Ron Dent from a well know shop here in Auckland complaining how long it takes to shoot Fclass matches here compared to his old club in Sydney - I dont know what it is but were slow! I love the fact your country has such a great shooting tradition and passion !

----------


## Gillie

I was talking with a couple of competitors at the last long range event I ran and they thought the idea of a biathlon type event would be a bit of fun. The competitor moves through the course shooting at each stage and an overall time is recorded for them. You would either have a RO at each stage scoring for people that come through or a RO that accompanies each competitor. 

At the last shoot I ran the competitors basically RO’d for themselves i.e. you shot a stage, cleared your gear away and then RO’d for the next competitor. Once you have scored the guy after you, you picked up your gear and moved onto the next stage. Worked well I thought, we ran the whole shoot with just two people, and i competed as well as organised it! 

I always thought if you had a NZDA branch (or any group of people) running the shoot they could use the event as a fundraiser. At least then you would have guys there who can run the shoot without worrying about competing as well. I am yet to convince a branch that it would be a good idea though. Shane’s Gunslinger events add credibility to the idea though. If he can get 30+ competitors to an event paying a couple of hundred dollars each, that would be a serious fundraising event for our North Taranaki branch. Better than chopping firewood that for sure!

----------


## el borracho

Your Idea is good Simon but the time thing gives the youngest and fastest an advantage through speed rather than pure shooting ability one thinks ? Kinda like Matt Ryan on the jungle lane -hes a freak for running and shooting and winning

----------


## leathel

> Your Idea is good Simon but the time thing gives the youngest and fastest an advantage through speed rather than pure shooting ability one thinks ? Kinda like Matt Ryan on the jungle lane -hes a freak for running and shooting and winning


yes but skill in quick shots may overcome speed between stations if the coarse isn't too long.....and you can allways get fitter  :Psmiley:

----------


## el borracho

hahah yeah lethal I am trying mate 16kgs off now and no boozing for 6 months less last weekend which was a real blow out but now back on the wagon !

----------


## el borracho

> We usually run competition for 50-60 with three people. 7-8 to take on 3-400 shooters.
> 
> ... Shooting competitions is a big thing in Norway. The nationals attract 5-7000 shooters...
> 
> It is not hard to pull off a well organized shoot.


Norway with your shoots what format do they take that you can utilize a small amount of range officers ? At an fclass shoot we have 1 range officer for the whole shoot which is on a square range .
One an open country type shoot where competitors are scattered over the hills there is one for each firing point -to brief and keep things safe as shooters "often "make errors as we all can when we forget to perform a safety requirement .
One of the guys I shoot fclass with -no names-  he has discharged his pistol in an unsafe direction more than once because he forgot something ,if not everything !!!

----------


## Gillie

I would always try to prioritise hits over speed. Even on a long course the weighting of time vs hits can be such that speed is good but not that much of an advantage. Say a course that takes about 1 hour to go through with 20 shots would have say a 3 minute penalty for a missed shot. 

There will always be people who have "advantages" over someone else at a competition shoot. He has a bigger gun, he has a better scope, he practices more than me, he spent more money, etc ... Why should "he is fitter than me" be any different an excuse? Not to mention as soon as you are thinking about how he is shooting and not how you are shooting you have already lost! I prefer the shoots i run to reflect hunting conditions and as such they are not a test of simple shooting ability - that is what I use F-Class for.

----------


## el borracho

Obviously there are many ways one can present a shoot Gillie -speed is generally based around a military type shoot one thinks -how does it translate to hunting ? And is pure speed going to be a condition of a potential win or is it to just get the crowd moving at a sensible rate ?

----------


## Gillie

Sometime when you see an animal on the hill you are best to shift to a suitable shooting location. If the animal is moving in and out of sight you will need to move to that location, set up and shoot before it goes out of sight. And if you can do this efficiently under this type of pressure you should find "ambush" type long range shooting from a set location easy!

----------


## el borracho

> Forcing people to walk a decent distance between targets is a good match for hunting. That hunting especially. Get into position and your hearts probably trying to bounce out of your chest. 
> 
> It also influences rifle choice. Big 338 accuracy intrrnationals are built soldiers can abuse hell out of them. Unless you planning on dragging it around by it's barrel and using it to club things, you probably don't need one. 
> 
> Monstrous cannons become a disadvantage and the smaller, lighter more practical guns come out. Then you need to learn how to shoot!


im 6ft8 and 200kgs of muscle I can handle the AI no probs tussock  :Cool:

----------


## Spanners

You added 2 ft to your height....
Wheres that pic I have with the shell cases in your ears as earplugs... makes you look like Shrek

----------


## el borracho

:Yuush: hhmmm well yes ok- i may have miss measured and got muscle and fat mixed up

----------


## Savage1

This thread is still going?!?!?! And my one about firearms registration got shut down?!?!?!

----------


## Spanners

Wheres the Politics here???
Its a bunch of people giving El B shit  :Grin:

----------


## Savage1

> Wheres the Politics here???
> Its a bunch of people giving El B shit


Where was the politics in that one?! 

I guess I was just giving everyone shit.

----------


## el borracho

That was a bummer Savage1 ,have you been on this site Weapons | Whale Oil Beef Hooked | A blog by Cameron Slater

----------


## el borracho

> You can tell he loves it. We are all having a nice time.
> 
> Can't believe you went and banned him Spanners!


was that you Tussock? sweating all night and wham bam ban the man  :3 8 14:  :Thumbsup: i thought it was crazyman for a jab i gave him about a donkey wearing a hat on another thread lol

----------


## el borracho

:ORLY: thanks------- Spanners eh

----------


## Cyclist

> im 6ft8 and 200kgs of muscle I can handle the AI no probs tussock


And here we have proof

----------


## el borracho

Anyway Tussock no pins in vodoo dolls in my hands , what about this shoot format then ?

----------


## el borracho

LOVE IT Cyclist :Thumbsup:

----------


## el borracho

more like this

----------


## longrange308

tussock i would be dead keen on a shoot if u give a bit of notice :Grin:

----------


## el borracho

If its well planned ill come down if invited -that's if im more flush than i am now.We wont debate much once were pullin triggers having fun.
Depending on how many there are at the shoot and the format to how much pre planning and setting out  there will be -many hands make light work

----------


## gimp

I've basically got a rough map of stages for your place in my head already.. We'll sort it out when you're not in Nairobi and I'm not in a caravan in the Simpson Desert with slower-than-dialup Internet.

----------


## el borracho

what do you both do in respective country's?

----------


## R93

> I said "make believe". Your not supposed to inject too much reality. That ranges from getting yelled at as you mention, to getting shot at. Doesnt sound like fun to me. 
> 
> My mate owns Wanaka paintball. Consider yourself challenged. I warn you, I suck, but I always shoot for the face.
> 
> And your only allowed to talk in acronyms. ie. "Need an ETA on when the SOB will have the SOP for the COF".


Challenge accepted! Me and Thomas vs you and Pete. You can shoot me in the mask all you want. I am used to my targets spinning and falling when hit. Theres only one place worth aiming to make someone do that with a paint ball I expect :Psmiley:

----------


## R93

Bloody hell, cooking oil? Did not know that.

----------


## gimp

Earlier this year our muay Thai gym moved to a building that used to be used for indoor paintball, the walls and carpet were soaked with horrible sticky residue, took forever to get rid of. Nasty shit, never seems to dry.

----------


## veitnamcam

Glycol is antifreeze isint it?

----------


## Spanners

> Glycol is antifreeze isint it?


Ya Ethylene Glycol

----------


## outdoorlad

> I've basically got a rough map of stages for your place in my head already.. We'll sort it out when you're not in Nairobi and I'm not in a caravan in the Simpson Desert with slower-than-dialup Internet.


I'd be keen to attend if it fits in around my Roo, deer & tahr trips in Nov.

Simpson, think we flew over that on our way to Broome, i'll wave on the way back  :Grin:

----------


## el borracho

which little bear has been screwing with my  settings -Moma bear , dada bear or the little crazyman bear

----------


## Cyclist

Ethylene glycol = nasty poison in antifreeze
Propylene glycol = gloopy stuff in food

hopefully the latter one!

----------


## el borracho

Tussock , here is something you might like to use rather than type out for future matches so all are clear on saftey 






Safety
1.	Violation of any safety rules will result in banishment 
2.	Firearm  safety rules are the baseline for safety at this match. 
3.	Competitors shall practice good muzzle control and firearm safety at all times. Competitors that do not handle their weapons safely will be disqualified from competing. 
1.	Do not ever allow the muzzle of your weapons to point at anyone. 
2.	Do not load your weapons until directed to do so by a range officer. 
3.	Do not put your finger on the trigger until your sights are aligned with your target. 
4.	Obey all Range Officer commands immediately. 
4.	In addition an Accidental Discharge, the stage RO may call an A.D. using his own judgement. Example: if the competitor was clearly not engaging a target. Any round that does not impact within 10 yards of the target the competitor is engaging is declared to be an AD. 
5.	The entire competition area is a "cold range." 
1.	No firearms may be loaded at the match site except under the direct command of a RO. 
2.	Long-guns shall be kept unloaded, and carried muzzle up or muzzle down and the action open. 
3.	"Sweeping" any person with a weapon's muzzle will result in immediate D.Q. 
6.	All firearms must have a functioning safety, subject to verification by an RO at any time. 
7.	Any firearm or ammunition deemed by any RO or match staff to be "unsafe" for any reason may not be used in the match until a determination is made by the match director that it may continue 
8.	Any firearm that can be demonstrated by any RO or match staff to have a hammer/striker that will fall without the trigger being pressed shall be deemed unsafe and may not be used in the match until repaired. 
9.	Any rifle slung must have an empty chamber, unless directed by the stage RO. 
10.	No person shall consume or be under the influence of alcohol or non-prescription drugs at the match site. Any person found to be impaired and unsafe as a result of legitimate prescription drugs may be directed to stop shooting and requested to leave the range. 
11.	Eye and ear protection is mandatory. 
12.	This match includes dynamic shooting in natural terrain. Match staff will communicate what are safe directions to point firearms while shooting, or while waiting. This will typically be presented during a stage or match briefing. The competitor shall note and obey the safe muzzle direction guidelines. 
Equipment
1.	Rifle 
1.	Minimum caliber: .223 
2.	Maximum caliber: .338 Lapua Magnum 
2.	Any shooting accessories may be used provided they are carried by the competitor during every stage. Accessories include but are not limited to: 
1.	bipods, bags, shooting sticks, slings, jackets, gloves, or other shooting support devices 
2.	optics such as spotting scopes, binoculars, and range-finders 
3.	The competitor may use only one rifle during the course of the entire match. A rifle is defined to consist of a specific combination of receiver/action, stock, barrel, muzzle devices, sighting systems. 
4.	Ammunition and magazines may be replenished at any time. 
5.	Ammunition that must be "fired" to be unloaded once chambered is declared to be unsafe and may not be used in this match. All firearms must be able to be completely unloaded without firing a round. 
6.	No steel core, steel jacketed, armor piercing, incendiary or tracer bullets are permitted. 
7.	In the event a weapon breaks or becomes inoperable during the match, the shooter may substitute a weapon of substantially similar configuration for subsequent stages, but only after approval by the Match Director. 

SCORING
Each stage will be scored in a manner to reward accuracy,  other factors, or some combination thereof. Accuracy will be emphasized, and first-round rifle hits will be worth more than second round hits (if permitted by the stage brief). Stage scores will be normalized into match points to comprise the overall match scores. Full scoring details to follow. 
PENALTIES
1.	The Match Director has the right to disqualify any competitor for Unsportsmanlike Conduct based on his judgment. 
Note: rules are subject to change up until the match date. Final match and stage briefings supersede all prior information.

----------


## Savage1

Oh yeah El B, that picture you have is crap, Hitler did not institute gun control, neither did Stalin, not sure about the rest. Just another another anti control law propaganda bullshit. In pretty bad taste to.

----------


## el borracho

> Oh yeah El B, that picture you have is crap, Hitler did not institute gun control, neither did Stalin, not sure about the rest. Just another another anti control law propaganda bullshit. In pretty bad taste to.


In pretty bad taste to??  do explain please ! see links below and come back to me.look up 'sarcasm' also and the image may come a little more sensible.
Hows your roster for the 25th?

Gun Control Hall of Fame

The Gun Zone RKBA -- The True Face of Gun Control

Dictators and Gun Control « America In Chains

----------


## Spanners

> Oh yeah El B, that picture you have is crap, Hitler did not institute gun control, neither did Stalin, not sure about the rest. Just another another anti control law propaganda bullshit. In pretty bad taste to.


Do you survive to stir shit?

----------


## jakewire

Ahh, cool. Here was I thinking the thread had done it's dash. :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Savage1

Haha yeah I do enjoy stirring a bit of shit, the bad taste was about relating gun control to human genocide.

----------


## Gutshot

Mate went to precision shooting course run in Hamilton. 
Shot a shotgun clay at 850m with bush 308 over bag. 100mm to right at 900m and same at 1220m. Said it was awesome and instructors were great. Another course in future

----------


## Happy

> Mate went to precision shooting course run in Hamilton. 
> Shot a shotgun clay at 850m with bush 308 over bag. 100mm to right at 900m and same at 1220m. Said it was awesome and instructors were great. Another course in future


When you get details of when , where etc wanna pm me let us know would be keen to join in !Prodably 30calterry too.Cheers

----------


## Rushy

> When you get details of when , where etc wanna pm me let us know would be keen to join in !Prodably 30calterry too.Cheers


I could be interested in that as well.

----------


## R93

> I could be interested in that as well.


Its a longrange cse, not a long life one Rushy :Grin:

----------


## Rushy

> Its a longrange cse, not a long life one Rushy


You're a cheeky shit R93

----------


## R93

> You're a cheeky shit R93


Just keeping you on your toes.  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Rushy

> Just keeping you on your toes.


Yeh good on ya.

----------


## RUNAS

> Mate went to precision shooting course run in Hamilton. 
> Shot a shotgun clay at 850m with bush 308 over bag. 100mm to right at 900m and same at 1220m. Said it was awesome and instructors were great. Another course in future


Where was this held by whom ? Sounds interesting, sure have heard nothing about courses like this in Hamilton.

----------


## lost

> Where was this held by whom ? Sounds interesting, sure have heard nothing about courses like this in Hamilton.


Didn't run it yourself bro?  You wouldn't let a dirty old 308 shoot though would you?  :Grin:

----------


## RUNAS

> Didn't run it yourself bro?  You wouldn't let a dirty old 308 shoot though would you?


We cant shoot 1220m ? Thats what is confusing, 1015 yards thats as far as we shot that weekend, 900m ish, yes we had clay birds, balloons and steel.

Nup dont doubt 308's, wont own one though. :Grin: 

RUNAS

----------


## lost

> We cant shoot 1220m ? Thats what is confusing, 1015 yards thats as far as we shot that weekend, 900m ish, yes we had clay birds, balloons and steel.
> 
> Nup dont doubt 308's, wont own one though.
> 
> RUNAS


Hmm thats odd, maybe you're being left outta this cus you're too good mate  :Grin:  

However, a bush 308 @850m is no bloody easy feat!!

----------


## RUNAS

Thats the funny thing if it was that shoot, we didnt shoot at 850m, 300,500,600 and 1000 yrds that was it. hmm

----------


## lost

> Thats the funny thing if it was that shoot, we didnt shoot at 850m, 300,500,600 and 1000 yrds that was it. hmm


Dodgy ass rangefinder maybe?  Need to pop up for a shoot some time, and a feed while I'm at it  :Psmiley:

----------


## Gutshot

Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m

----------


## Gutshot

Why can't you shoot 1220m with a 308?

----------


## andyanimal31

have a look at the art of precision  shooting if  you want to see some impressive 308 shooting at a mile!

----------


## leathel

> Why can't you shoot 1220m with a 308?


bush 308 can go well, but unless you witnessed it personally its best not to post it..... just in case the tutor or one of the other shooters are on this forum and you mate's facts were flexable....

----------


## Happy

> bush 308 can go well, but unless you witnessed it personally its best not to post it..... just in case the tutor or one of the other shooters are on this forum and you mate's facts were flexable....


Are you saying its easy to get shot down here Leathel surely you jokin ?   :Thumbsup:   :Grin:

----------


## Proudkiwi

> Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m


1600mtrs........?

You sure about that?

----------


## RUNAS

> Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m


Yes footage will be great thanks!! Will sure be interesting watch. 

Yeah PK we can get 1600m out there, further actually 2.4 k is the limit.If it was held there.

AJF

----------


## Gutshot

Yea mate 1609m with two .338s. The great mile shot. Peice of...

----------


## lost

> Thats the funny thing if it was that shoot, we didnt shoot at 850m, 300,500,600 and 1000 yrds that was it. hmm


Dodgy ass rangefinder maybe?  Need to pop up for a shoot some time, and a feed while I'm at it  :Psmiley:

----------


## Gutshot

Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m

----------


## Gutshot

Why can't you shoot 1220m with a 308?

----------


## andyanimal31

have a look at the art of precision  shooting if  you want to see some impressive 308 shooting at a mile!

----------


## leathel

> Why can't you shoot 1220m with a 308?


bush 308 can go well, but unless you witnessed it personally its best not to post it..... just in case the tutor or one of the other shooters are on this forum and you mate's facts were flexable....

----------


## Happy

> bush 308 can go well, but unless you witnessed it personally its best not to post it..... just in case the tutor or one of the other shooters are on this forum and you mate's facts were flexable....


Are you saying its easy to get shot down here Leathel surely you jokin ?   :Thumbsup:   :Grin:

----------


## Proudkiwi

> Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m


1600mtrs........?

You sure about that?

----------


## RUNAS

> Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m


Yes footage will be great thanks!! Will sure be interesting watch. 

Yeah PK we can get 1600m out there, further actually 2.4 k is the limit.If it was held there.

AJF

----------


## Gutshot

Yea mate 1609m with two .338s. The great mile shot. Peice of...

----------


## lost

> Thats the funny thing if it was that shoot, we didnt shoot at 850m, 300,500,600 and 1000 yrds that was it. hmm


Dodgy ass rangefinder maybe?  Need to pop up for a shoot some time, and a feed while I'm at it  :Psmiley:

----------


## Gutshot

Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m

----------


## Gutshot

Why can't you shoot 1220m with a 308?

----------


## andyanimal31

have a look at the art of precision  shooting if  you want to see some impressive 308 shooting at a mile!

----------


## leathel

> Why can't you shoot 1220m with a 308?


bush 308 can go well, but unless you witnessed it personally its best not to post it..... just in case the tutor or one of the other shooters are on this forum and you mate's facts were flexable....

----------


## Happy

> bush 308 can go well, but unless you witnessed it personally its best not to post it..... just in case the tutor or one of the other shooters are on this forum and you mate's facts were flexable....


Are you saying its easy to get shot down here Leathel surely you jokin ?   :Thumbsup:   :Grin:

----------


## Proudkiwi

> Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m


1600mtrs........?

You sure about that?

----------


## RUNAS

> Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m


Yes footage will be great thanks!! Will sure be interesting watch. 

Yeah PK we can get 1600m out there, further actually 2.4 k is the limit.If it was held there.

AJF

----------


## Gutshot

Yea mate 1609m with two .338s. The great mile shot. Peice of...

----------


## lost

> Thats the funny thing if it was that shoot, we didnt shoot at 850m, 300,500,600 and 1000 yrds that was it. hmm


Dodgy ass rangefinder maybe?  Need to pop up for a shoot some time, and a feed while I'm at it  :Psmiley:

----------


## Gutshot

Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m

----------


## Gutshot

Why can't you shoot 1220m with a 308?

----------


## andyanimal31

have a look at the art of precision  shooting if  you want to see some impressive 308 shooting at a mile!

----------


## leathel

> Why can't you shoot 1220m with a 308?


bush 308 can go well, but unless you witnessed it personally its best not to post it..... just in case the tutor or one of the other shooters are on this forum and you mate's facts were flexable....

----------


## Happy

> bush 308 can go well, but unless you witnessed it personally its best not to post it..... just in case the tutor or one of the other shooters are on this forum and you mate's facts were flexable....


Are you saying its easy to get shot down here Leathel surely you jokin ?   :Thumbsup:   :Grin:

----------


## Proudkiwi

> Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m


1600mtrs........?

You sure about that?

----------


## RUNAS

> Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m


Yes footage will be great thanks!! Will sure be interesting watch. 

Yeah PK we can get 1600m out there, further actually 2.4 k is the limit.If it was held there.

AJF

----------


## Gutshot

Yea mate 1609m with two .338s. The great mile shot. Peice of...

----------


## lost

> Thats the funny thing if it was that shoot, we didnt shoot at 850m, 300,500,600 and 1000 yrds that was it. hmm


Dodgy ass rangefinder maybe?  Need to pop up for a shoot some time, and a feed while I'm at it  :Psmiley:

----------


## Gutshot

Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m

----------


## Gutshot

Why can't you shoot 1220m with a 308?

----------


## andyanimal31

have a look at the art of precision  shooting if  you want to see some impressive 308 shooting at a mile!

----------


## leathel

> Why can't you shoot 1220m with a 308?


bush 308 can go well, but unless you witnessed it personally its best not to post it..... just in case the tutor or one of the other shooters are on this forum and you mate's facts were flexable....

----------


## Happy

> bush 308 can go well, but unless you witnessed it personally its best not to post it..... just in case the tutor or one of the other shooters are on this forum and you mate's facts were flexable....


Are you saying its easy to get shot down here Leathel surely you jokin ?   :Thumbsup:   :Grin:

----------


## Proudkiwi

> Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m


1600mtrs........?

You sure about that?

----------


## RUNAS

> Long range shooting course was held by precision shooting Australia as advertised in magazine and first post on this thread.was held at whatawhata rifle range. Monday to Friday 40hrs total. Will try to get footage.338s were shooting 1600m


Yes footage will be great thanks!! Will sure be interesting watch. 

Yeah PK we can get 1600m out there, further actually 2.4 k is the limit.If it was held there.

AJF

----------


## Gutshot

Yea mate 1609m with two .338s. The great mile shot. Peice of...

----------

