# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Nazis successfully complete invasion 70 years later

## Rock river arms hunter

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-z...with-guns.html

I don't condone the enactors actions in any way however.

But seriously though how much SOY can you have in one article? Like honestly it's like saying people who dress in red army uniforms are Communists.

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## ebf

I'm surprised systolic did not beat you to that one, He is normally all over any bad firearms press :-)

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## Steve123

> I'm surprised systolic did not beat you to that one, He is normally all over any bad firearms press :-)


Maybe the mythical Systolic was one of the re-enactors?

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## Rock river arms hunter

> I'm surprised systolic did not beat you to that one, He is normally all over any bad firearms press :-)


I'm fairly active on FB so I feel info I find on there for those on here who don't Facebook is beneficial

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## Taff

I love the way the complainant tied the trains to the Germans and came up with the holocaust, not belittling the holocaust but some people need to get a life.

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## systolic

> I'm surprised systolic did not beat you to that one, He is normally all over any bad firearms press :-)


Sorry I dropped the ball on that one. I was in the garage reloading the cases I fired on Saturday.

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## veitnamcam

Far better we sweep all those wars past under the carpet so our children never learn of the atrocity's of the human race. :Wtfsmilie: 

Honestly some people just need to get a grip on reality.

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## Beavis

It _almost_ sounds made up. Or a creative reconstruction of events.

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## Sasquatch

Considering that the nation war museum has conveniently let certain exhibitions lapse and guns taken away from the _publics_ view, it's hard not to draw conclusions.

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## res

> It _almost_ sounds made up. Or a creative reconstruction of events.


It does sound like it could be a bit of a beat up.

While I have no interest in reinacting I do know a fair number of people who are involved-some who were probably at the event in question-and I cant imagine any of them either behaving in souch a manner described or standing by if they knew of it.

The idea that they are glorifiying the Nazis just doesnt ring true to me as most renactors have the kit to to play several roles on both sides of whatever period they are interested-and these people need to practice if they are to continue putting on the well recived displays they do as part of larger events eg war birds over wanaka , or being an important resource for small scale film makers to polish there craft.

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## timattalon

> It _almost_ sounds made up. Or a creative reconstruction of events.


I can promise that the piece was published in Newshub so was clearly well researched and investigated......NOT. The media could not tell a straight story truthfullly without bias if it was written for them by a judge. They would still manage to twist it up. I can promise that the re-enacters will have a very different version of events. 

One point though, The parents sound like proper snowflakes that would have started it. Even with their biased view they still concede to starting the interaction (I wont call it a confrontation) by interrupting and telling them that they were glorifying Nazis. I would not mind betting that she was a little more heated when she spoke to them.....But would Newshub publish that? Hell no. Picture this, You and your mates are BBQing in a public park where you are allowed to be and some vegetarian social justice warrior comes up and informs you that you should not be eating meat....what would you say?  It would not be "_it's history - if you don't like it piss off_''. It would be more like F__K Off Go ant eat your Tofurkey elsewhere....

Bloody PC rubbish where everyone gangs up because someone got offended. Would she have said something if they had mob patches? Or if they were smoking weed openly? The enactors were clearly NOT being intimidating as she was obviously not afraid to say something.

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## northdude

> Far better we sweep all those wars past under the carpet so our children never learn of the atrocity's of the human race.
> 
> Honestly some people just need to get a grip on reality.


We live in a time where we are shelterd from reality and instead live a life of excuses and denial

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## Steve123

I'm offended by people that get offended easily

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## Cordite

> I can promise that the piece was published in Newshub so was clearly well researched and investigated......NOT. The media could not tell a straight story truthfullly without bias if it was written for them by a judge. They would still manage to twist it up. I can promise that the re-enacters will have a very different version of events. 
> 
> One point though, The parents sound like proper snowflakes that would have started it. Even with their biased view they still concede to starting the interaction (I wont call it a confrontation) by interrupting and telling them that they were glorifying Nazis. I would not mind betting that she was a little more heated when she spoke to them.....But would Newshub publish that? Hell no. Picture this, You and your mates are BBQing in a public park where you are allowed to be and some vegetarian social justice warrior comes up and informs you that you should not be eating meat....what would you say?  It would not be "_it's history - if you don't like it piss off_''. It would be more like F__K Off Go ant eat your Tofurkey elsewhere....
> 
> Bloody PC rubbish where everyone gangs up because someone got offended. Would she have said something if they had mob patches? Or if they were smoking weed openly? *The enactors were clearly NOT being intimidating as she was obviously not afraid to say something.*


Well pointed out @timattalon, I do not believe the complainer is entirely sincere either.  Feel sorry for the railway guy getting to be pig in the middle, trying to control damage.

I'm also sick and tired of all German servicemen of WW2 - never mind their re-enactors - being referred to collectively as "Nazis", which is dehumanising and inaccurate.

My grandfather in an occupied European country nearly got hanged in 1945 in the orgy of lynchings that took place, for having treated "a Nazi", a conscript, as a human being, but got saved last minute by someone brave who put the record straight about his good motives.

Sadly, hate/war mongers shall always be with us.

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## ChrisF

Hey ,

Im offended NOW , Warmongers are people TOO .

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## Friwi

You will notice now days that if you have the slittest thought slightly right of the left ,you are qualified of a nazi/ racist/antisemit...etc

It is even worst in France.

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## shooternz

The west is turning into a bunch of spineless pussies

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## Moa Hunter

> The west is turning into a bunch of spineless pussies


I like my pussy spineless

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## Sideshow

Damit there goes that WW2  re-enactment. No bother I didn't have the correct guns :Oh Noes: 

Oh but I do have a lever action :Thumbsup:  they have a train you say :Wink:  Anyone else here want to meet up for a bit of cowboys and Indians :Thumbsup:  now there is a thread on here about lever guns so........
Anyone want to try some "Once upon a time in the west "! Now that them Nazis have pushed off :XD:

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## rewa

Not that many years ago, you could walk down Broadway in PN with a rifle, sometimes you saw motorcyclists with them, across their back, nobody took much notice. The scare-mongering BS is the Media, the Entertainment Industry, and Politicians. The USA was first to get swamped with killing games, kids grew up with them, and 20yrs ago, they had veiwed more than 1000 murders on TV before they were 12. You cant brain-wash people, without consequences. Shit IS happening, and it wont go away if things carry on this way. Hysteria breeds hysteria and we all need to stop buying into it. Ditch your TV, and the kids tablets, in 3 weeks they'll be playing happily outside. Let the USA News be outlawed here, then the BS can stay where it belongs..it really should be illegal to "export" that crap

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## csmiffy

> Oh but I do have a lever action they have a train you say Anyone else here want to meet up for a bit of cowboys and Indians now there is a thread on here about lever guns so........
> Anyone want to try some "Once upon a time in the west "!


Seen Westworld? 
not so much lol

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## Sideshow

Bit one sided and a little racist that. They point out the German army but can't identify the other uniforms.......guess they might need a history lesson after all.
Do they know how much misery trains have brought? Take TB for example. A German microbiologist discovered tubercle bacillus in 1882, four years later it was discovered that it was spread by raw milk. Tuberculosis was the single greatest cause of death and disability in nineteenth century Britain. Why then. Because of the industrial revolution which saw Britain get trains access. Suddenly all those towns could get fresh milk. Which was all mixed. 
estimates indicate that at least half a million (and possibly 800,000) human deaths in the period 1850-1950 are directly attributable to bovine TB, especially among young children who were the main milk drinkers. (Unprocessed milk)!!
Here's the link.

http://dro.dur.ac.uk/10386/1/10386.pdf

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## Sideshow

> Seen Westworld? 
> not so much lol


Hahhahahaha didn't even think of that one :Thumbsup:

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## GDMP

Frankly,I believe there is a large element of 'Holier than thou' in all of this PC rubbish.....some people like to make a big thing of being offended by this or that,and making a point of telling anyone who will listen about being so offended.We really are becoming ridiculous as a country of PC handwringers.....I for one really miss the old NZ,and I despair at where we are headed.

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## Cordite

There is a present country with 800 overseas military bases, all full of Narzi re-enactors wearing Fritz helmets and using Jerry cans.

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## Friwi

At that size and presence worldwide ,It is actually called an empire not a country.

And if you look at most empires, they tend to suck out the resources of their colonies. 
They also have all collapsed at some point...

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## 300wsm for life

We had an open day here at Omaka air drome. Part of it had men and women dressed in both Germany and Allied uniforms. Also had a Nazi flag on display. It was fantastic to see the whole display. They got really positive feed back by all who attended. The fact the flag was real and not a replica was pretty cool. Taken from a captured building by a kiwi soldier who then brought it home. It's history and as such it should never be hidden. Even the atrocities.

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## timattalon

> We had an open day here at Omaka air drome. Part of it had men and women dressed in both Germany and Allied uniforms. Also had a Nazi flag on display. It was fantastic to see the whole display. They got really positive feed back by all who attended. The fact the flag was real and not a replica was pretty cool. Taken from a captured building by a kiwi soldier who then brought it home. It's history and as such it should never be hidden. Even the atrocities.


Lest we Forget....

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## Cordite

> Lest we Forget....


...or only selectively remember.  Alluding here to atrocities committed by non-Germans.  It is just that the Germans were so industrially effective at it (even had help from IBM computing to organise the genocide) PLUS they lost a war and really got found out, their own collated evidence of Allied war crimes confiscated and sealed for 100 yrs or more...

Here is an IBM tabulator card used in an IBM Hollerith machine by the SS Rassenamt (race bureau).  Even has causes of death include by special treatment (Sonderbehandlung).  The camps had rooms with IBM Hollerith machines and in case of doubt, the contract specifisd the cards should be supplied by IBM.



Article by clicking on image.

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## northdude

I read somewhere that they bought the gas from the yanks that they used in the camps noone kike talking about that,tho i think it was dupont supplying it

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## 40mm

id just like to say that without all these war mongers we would be woefully short of interesting items hanging on our walls.

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## Friwi

A few years back I was doing some work at Arapuni station (I think it was this one), and there is still the eagle with the swastika on the side of the Turbines frames. They were installed in the 30's i believe.

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## Gapped axe

build a bridge (biif the PC brigade off it)

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## keneff

> I'm offended by people that get offended easily


I'm offended by just about everybody and every thing. There is fuck all that aligns with my own prejudices and biases. Fuck it all.

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## Max Headroom

> I'm offended by just about everybody and every thing.


Being consistent is very important.

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## Steve123

I find that not giving a fuck about the small stuff really helps.
At the moment I'm stuck working in PC land so have to try to be carefull.

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

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## systolic

> I read somewhere that they bought the gas from the yanks that they used in the camps noone kike talking about that,tho i think it was dupont supplying it


Wrong.

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## 40mm

> A few years back I was doing some work at Arapuni station (I think it was this one), and there is still the eagle with the swastika on the side of the Turbines frames. They were installed in the 30's i believe.


better keep that quiet, some one might find it offensive and have the turbines replaced!

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## Cordite

> I read somewhere that they bought the gas from the yanks that they used in the camps noone kike talking about that,tho i think it was dupont supplying it


The first gas murders were done on mentally handicapped / mentally ill children and adults using bottled carbon monoxide gas.  As CO is a large component of coal gas, it may have been bottled coal gas from any local town supply, without a noxious detection agent added.  The shower ruse was invented during the "Aktion T4" euthanasia program, along with other experience gained from this, including the use of reassuring white lab coats.  Also doing dissections and organ preservations to give things a scientific air, helping participants to dissociate from what they were doing.

Later, in the first death camp, the crowded gas chamber was supplied with CO straight from the exhausts of two Russian tank engines.

Later Cyklon-B hydrogen cyanide tablets were used.  They were intended for fumigation and so had a cautionary eye irritant added to make the gas detectable.  Cyklon B was first made by a German company, Degesh in the early 1920s.  HCN had been used prior to this, since 1880, for fumigation and in late WW1 as a chemical weapon by the French, the Italians, and the Americans and as it is/was a common industrial chemical it is doubtful it would have required to be imported.  It was used by US authorities too, for delousing of immigrants possessions etc. and significant portions of the SS use of Cyklon B was for that purpose too.  Two Cyklon-B inventors/businessmen were hanged in 1946 for having knowingly sold it to the SS for use on humans, the SS business having accounted for 8% of Degesh's sales of the product.  They must have "cooperated" VERY well to deserve such punishment, I guess.

How it all started:  Yesterday afternoon I visited a German site where thousands mentally defectives were murdered, many by being fed a deliberate starvation diet of fake food.  The medical director of the mental institution in question got 10 years, possibly because there is an inner Nazi in many which agrees with eugenics and that some lives are worth less than others.


1938 poster showing a fake doctor behind someone obviously suffering from cerebral palsy reads: 
"60,000 Reichsmark is what this person suffering from a hereditary defect costs society during his lifetime. Fellow citizen, that is your money too. Read 'NEW PEOPLE', the monthly magazine of the Bureau for Race Politics of the NSDAP."

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## Sideshow

> build a bridge (biif the PC brigade off it)


Your industrial! What's wrong with how the lemmings do it :Thumbsup: 

Now don't some of these bikey gangs run around with German helmets? Himmmmmm maybe we can send the pc brigade in on them.......two birds one stone sorted  :Thumbsup:  :XD:

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## Cordite

> Your industrial! What's wrong with how the lemmings do it
> *
> Now don't some of these bikey gangs run around with German helmets? Himmmmmm maybe we can send the pc brigade in on them.*......two birds one stone sorted


No, I don't think they would feel "in a safe space" approaching them.

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## dogmatix

> The first gas murders were done on mentally handicapped / mentally ill children and adults using bottled carbon monoxide gas.  As CO is a large component of coal gas, it may have been bottled coal gas from any local town supply, without a noxious detection agent added.  The shower ruse was invented during the "Aktion T4" euthanasia program, along with other experience gained from this, including the use of reassuring white lab coats.  Also doing dissections and organ preservations to give things a scientific air, helping participants to dissociate from what they were doing.
> 
> Later, in the first death camp, the crowded gas chamber was supplied with CO straight from the exhausts of two Russian tank engines.
> 
> Later Cyklon-B hydrogen cyanide tablets were used.  They were intended for fumigation and so had a cautionary eye irritant added to make the gas detectable.  Cyklon B was first made by a German company, Degesh in the early 1920s.  HCN had been used prior to this, since 1880, for fumigation and in late WW1 as a chemical weapon by the French, the Italians, and the Americans and as it is/was a common industrial chemical it is doubtful it would have required to be imported.  It was used by US authorities too, for delousing of immigrants possessions etc. and significant portions of the SS use of Cyklon B was for that purpose too.  Two Cyklon-B inventors/businessmen were hanged in 1946 for having knowingly sold it to the SS for use on humans, the SS business having accounted for 8% of Degesh's sales of the product.  They must have "cooperated" VERY well to deserve such punishment, I guess.
> 
> How it all started:  Yesterday afternoon I visited a German site where thousands mentally defectives were murdered, many by being fed a deliberate starvation diet of fake food.  The medical director of the mental institution in question got 10 years, possibly because there is an inner Nazi in many which agrees with eugenics and that some lives are worth less than others.
> 
> Attachment 93949
> ...


You will find that the scientist who first developed the toxin for the company was like many leading scientists of the time, Jewish.

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## Cordite

> You will find that the scientist who first developed the toxin for the company was like many leading scientists of the time, Jewish.


 @dogmatix

Yes, talk of an own goal in attacking the Jews - but stupidity is no bar to entering politics.

Some clown in Sweden, leads a party which is reactive to Arab muslim immigration and unrest... but the clown seems to admire Hitler, and like Hitler is also a jew hater - like many arab muslims are.    I guess he is confused.

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## dogmatix

Fritz Haber was doing it to be a German patriot during WW1, he wanted to show that he (and other Jews) supported the war effort.

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## Rock river arms hunter

> Frankly,I believe there is a large element of 'Holier than thou' in all of this PC rubbish.....some people like to make a big thing of being offended by this or that,and making a point of telling anyone who will listen about being so offended.We really are becoming ridiculous as a country of PC handwringers.....I for one really miss the old NZ,and I despair at where we are headed.


Ah ha!
Your talking about the modern day Virtue signalling Social justice warrior 300 Genders brigade.

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## 300CALMAN

> A few years back I was doing some work at Arapuni station (I think it was this one), and there is still the eagle with the swastika on the side of the Turbines frames. They were installed in the 30's i believe.


https://imgur.com/G9Ft3At

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## Sideshow

Like this ah

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAlfredG...221760/video/1

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## Cordite

It's not a nazi swastika, which stands on end, but a traditional upright swastika, a symbol of good luck.  After the concentration camps the good luck bit never seemed right again, and the previous use of the symbol was all but forgotten, in Europe at least.

Carlsberg brewery in Copenhagen has several granite elephant statues each with a swastika - but they are from 1901, and named after each of Mr Carlsberg's then surviving children:



The ASEA company in Sweden had a similar kind of innocent good luck use of the old swastika - but they dropped it in 1933 due to it becoming associated with the Nazis in Germany.  Should date the generator quite well, unless they just installed some equipment with an old plate in NZ, after all, who would care to notice way out here?



Edit - a paste from Wikipedia Arapuni Power Station:
_"The station, complete with three turbines and provisions for a fourth, was commissioned in mid-1929. Shortly after commissioning, Arapuni was closed for two years while a water seepage problem was investigated and the headrace lined. The station, with the addition of a fourth turbine, was recommissioned in May 1932."_

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## Carlsen Highway

Death to the squarehead sausage-guzzling Krauts.

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## Cordite

> Death to the squarehead sausage-guzzling Krauts.


 @Carlsen Highway

You forgot baby-eating.

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## northdude

I think the hindus use a backwards version of it as well saw it at a hindu wedding i went to

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## Steve123

" Today Waiuku...Tomorrow the world" just doesn't have the same ring as "235 cunt!!!" though.

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## Carlsen Highway

> @Carlsen Highway
> 
> You forgot baby-eating.


And nun-raping.

I get tired of people explaining that everyone in Hitlers Germany wasn't a Nazi. As if that makes everything all alright. But I looked into the question and discovered I had it all wrong.

Apparently no-one in Hitlers Germany was truly Nazi I understand now, which surprised me no end. And apparently the whole nation wasn't rabidly anti-Semitic either. Someone on Youtube explained that none of the concentration camps had gas chambers too. Apparently that was some kind of mistake.  
If that don't beat all. I wish I could have run that past the woman at my work who had been at Auschwitz, but sadly she gone now, she could have confirmed that for me. 

I understood that the only underground resistance to the Nazi regime consisted of 6 teenagers armed with a typewriter, and an elderly couple who wrote some postcards, but I must have misunderstood that too. 

I would recommend a book to anyone interested, about the Police battalions on the Russian front. They were older men and other physically unfit for the military. Normal men, not soldiers. They didnt receive any special indoctrination or even training, and unlike the SS, they didn't have to be Nazi Party members. 
To a man they embraced the mass shooting of Jewish villagers in their thousands. They even volunteered to go on their days off and do it. There was only one chap who applied for a transfer because he didnt like the work, and they moved him without any fuss. There were no repercussions.
In 1940's you didn't need to be a Nazi to shoot naked civilians by the truckload. You just had to be German. It was an antisemitic culture, Nazism arose out of it, not the other way around.


I didnt actually read the article, so this post may be out of place or irrelevant. Slot in wherever appropriate.

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## Taff

To say there was no indoctrination, is stretching the truth a bit far, it occurred from the 1930s, until the hating of Jews, became the norm, so yes the whole country became nazi,s. Yet if not for the treaty of Versailles, hitler would never have come to power.
Yet the average soldier may not have been a rabid nazi, if he had been in the Africa corp, he may not have had a clue what was happening in the camps, he was fighting for his country or probably more for his esteemed leader Rommel. Why people would decide to hate another person to the point that they commit such atrocities we will never know.
Personally I collect knives, but for some reason can never bring myself to buy anything with a nazi emblem on it, and find it offensive when I see them for sale, yet have no problem with a Russian hammer and sickle, yet Stalin killed far more innocent people than hitler.
Alas we degrees from the original post.

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## Cordite

@Taff

Yes, antisemitism is/was also more widespread than just Germany.  British immigration policy reduced numbers of refugees escaping Germany pre-holocaust.

I was waiting for someone to mention the offensiveness of the hammer and sickle.  I agree with you though, I'd not want some nazi dagger in my house, even the garage.

How about a red flag with a central yellow-orange hammer and sickle?  Pol Pot.  But it's trendy wearing a hammer and sickle while listening to your ipod...

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## Carlsen Highway

> To say there was no indoctrination, is stretching the truth a bit far, it occurred from the 1930s, until the hating of Jews, became the norm, so yes the whole country became nazi,s. Yet if not for the treaty of Versailles, hitler would never have come to power.
> Yet the average soldier may not have been a rabid nazi, if he had been in the Africa corp, he may not have had a clue what was happening in the camps, he was fighting for his country or probably more for his esteemed leader Rommel. Why people would decide to hate another person to the point that they commit such atrocities we will never know.
> Personally I collect knives, but for some reason can never bring myself to buy anything with a nazi emblem on it, and find it offensive when I see them for sale, yet have no problem with a Russian hammer and sickle, yet Stalin killed far more innocent people than hitler.
> Alas we degrees from the original post.



I am not stretching the truth. Seven years of parades and posters doesn't suddenly make mass murderers out of peaceful people. They had a deeply anti-Semitic culture, which the Nazis made government policy.   

I have noticed people de-criminalising and inventing excuses for the Nazi in the last few years or so. There seems to be a new generation of young men growing up who dont want the Nazis to be bad guys. There is some kind of glamour there which they must still find attractive. Youtube is full of it.

And frankly, the men doing that re enacting in the article are the same. I saw the same crowd, at MOTAT once. They had all their Nazi army uniforms and some cars and so forth. There wasn't one of them under the age of forty and they were all running around breathing heavily pretending they were in a war and were 21 year old Nazi supermen. It was all vaguely embarassing and unsettling at the same time. Just don't. There has to be a better fantasy you can act out with your mates.

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## Ryan

You should probably be more embarrassed and unsettled about the fact that many of today's youth think that Communism is attractive. An ideology that killed infinitely more people in the countries where it was implemented, than their socialist competitors, the National Socialists.



Pictured Wellington, September 2017.

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## timattalon

> You should probably be more embarrassed and unsettled about the fact that many of today's youth think that Communism is attractive. An ideology that killed infinitely more people in the countries where it was implemented, than their socialist competitors, the National Socialists.
> 
> Attachment 94533
> 
> Pictured Wellington, September 2017.


Thats is scary. They want National out, but Labour would have to go as would the greens, Act NZ firstand almost every other party as none of them are far enough to the socialist side of things to want to go communist.....Well perhaps the greens do, but they have not said it yet....

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## Ryan

There were lots of those posters all down Courtenay Place, several students walking about wearing similar shirts.

Anyway, be that as it may - if someone wanted to dress up in a period correct uniform of a Red Army soldier with red stars and reenact the Battle of Berlin for example, then have at it. Historical reenactors in this country don't just wear German uniforms, they were WW I and WW II Commonwealth uniforms too.

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## systolic

Wasn't that firefighter who planted the fake bombs in Hamilton a few years ago an SS re-enactor?

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## Beavis

Most of the reenactors I have met personally, act out many different roles from many different nations, not exclusively Wehrmacht/Waffen SS.

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## Cordite

> Wasn't that firefighter who planted the fake bombs in Hamilton a few years ago an SS re-enactor?


The SS is not known for planting fake bombs.  He must have been re-enacting something else.

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## Cordite

Anyway, antisemitism shall always be with us, it is pretty mainline and fashionable - Not just available in red white and black, also available in "anti-zionism" palette.

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## Carlsen Highway

> You should probably be more embarrassed and unsettled about the fact that many of today's youth think that Communism is attractive. An ideology that killed infinitely more people in the countries where it was implemented, than their socialist competitors, the National Socialists.
> 
> Attachment 94533
> 
> Pictured Wellington, September 2017.



The Nazi's were not Socialists, despite their name. You couldn't get more right wing than a Nazi. 

There is a distinct difference between Socialism and Communism, which is what your equating these people with. They are not the same thing at all. 

And also, I will say it again, whenever someone brings up the Nazis these days someone has to bring up Communism and point out they killed even more people, thereby implying that the Nazi's were not so bad. The Germans don't get a pass for Belsen and Auschwitz. This is what is worrying the belittling of Nazi crime, rather then an infatuation of the part of the PC brigade with Socialism as a cause. Don't make the mistake Americans do, where anything Socialist (meaning communist)  is anti American. Scandinavia, Canada and New Zealand are very successful socialist nations. 

Socialism is a responsible civilised community taking care of its members. Communism is a leveling of society that you need to kill ten per cent of your population to implement. 


(Although admittedly, those above have stolen a 1930's Communist-style poster motif)

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## Beavis

There is quite a marked resurgence in people identifying with the far left though. There are armies of brain dead minions that will berate you and call you far right/literally Hitler/Nazi/Bigot/KKK/white trash... what ever for even slightly disagreeing with their world view. I don't ever remember people being as polarized they are now. I couldn't imagine living my life so offended all the time.

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## Ryan

> The Nazi's were not Socialists, despite their name. You couldn't get more right wing than a Nazi. 
> 
> There is a distinct difference between Socialism and Communism, which is what your equating these people with. They are not the same thing at all. 
> 
> And also, I will say it again, whenever someone brings up the Nazis these days someone has to bring up Communism and point out they killed even more people, thereby implying that the Nazi's were not so bad. The Germans don't get a pass for Belsen and Auschwitz. This is what is worrying the belittling of Nazi crime, rather then an infatuation of the part of the PC brigade with Socialism as a cause. Don't make the mistake Americans do, where anything Socialist (meaning communist)  is anti American. Scandinavia, Canada and New Zealand are very successful socialist nations. 
> 
> Socialism is a responsible civilised community taking care of its members. Communism is a leveling of society that you need to kill ten per cent of your population to implement. 
> 
> 
> (Although admittedly, those above have stolen a 1930's Communist-style poster motif)


[Carlsen Highway]
The Nazi's were not Socialists, despite their name. You couldn't get more right wing than a Nazi. 
[Ryan]
They are both socialist. Communism (economic socialism) is predicated on class, National Socialism is based on ethnicity or race. 

[Carlsen Highway]
There is a distinct difference between Socialism and Communism, which is what your equating these people with. They are not the same thing at all. 

[Ryan]
Both are totalitarian regimes. The only distinct difference is in the way that they divide and categorise and control and ultimately kill people.

[Carlsen Highway]
And also, I will say it again, whenever someone brings up the Nazis these days someone has to bring up Communism and point out they killed even more people. thereby implying that the Nazi's were not so bad. The Germans don't get a pass for Belsen and Auschwitz. 

[Ryan]
Nobody in their right minds is giving the Nazi regime or what they did a pass. History needs to be taken into context. The Nazi regime only lasted 12 years. You would do well to read upon the initial and superficial effects of communism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
This act was committed well before WW II by Communists who werent even of their own people. Subsequent history is replete with the successes of communism where it has been successfully (to the detriment of said country), implemented.

[Carlsen Highway]
This is what is worrying the belittling of Nazi crime, rather then an infatuation of the part of the PC brigade with Socialism as a cause. Don't make the mistake Americans do, where anything Socialist (meaning communist)  is anti American. Scandinavia, Canada and New Zealand are very successful socialist nations. 
[Ryan]
Nobody here, or the reenactors are belittling what the Nazis did. If anything, they are reminding the public that such deeds should not be repeated. None of those countries are socialist nations.

[Carlsen Highway]
Socialism is a responsible civilised community taking care of its members.
[Ryan]
No  your above suggests a preordained arbiter of what dictates a responsible and civilised community.

I counter that the community takes care of its members based on self-reliance, intercommunication, respect for the values of the host country. 

[Carlsen Highway]
Communism is a leveling of society that you need to kill ten per cent of your population to implement. 
[Ryan]
Thats how socialism starts, consult Marxs Theory of History.


(Although admittedly, those above have stolen a 1930's Communist-style poster motif)[/QUOTE]

[Carlsen Highway]
The Nazi's were not Socialists, despite their name. You couldn't get more right wing than a Nazi. 
[Ryan]
They are both socialist. Communism (economic socialism) is predicated on class, National Socialism is based on ethnicity or race. 

[Carlsen Highway]
There is a distinct difference between Socialism and Communism, which is what your equating these people with. They are not the same thing at all. 

[Ryan]
Both are totalitarian regimes. The only distinct difference is in the way that they divide and categorise and control and ultimately kill people.

[Carlsen Highway]
And also, I will say it again, whenever someone brings up the Nazis these days someone has to bring up Communism and point out they killed even more people. thereby implying that the Nazi's were not so bad. The Germans don't get a pass for Belsen and Auschwitz. 

[Ryan]
Nobody in their right minds is giving the Nazi regime or what they did a pass. History needs to be taken into context. The Nazi regime only lasted 12 years. You would do well to read upon the initial and superficial effects of communism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
This act was committed well before WW II by Communists who werent even of their own people. Subsequent history is replete with the successes of communism where it has been successfully (to the detriment of said country), implemented.

[Carlsen Highway]
This is what is worrying the belittling of Nazi crime, rather then an infatuation of the part of the PC brigade with Socialism as a cause. Don't make the mistake Americans do, where anything Socialist (meaning communist)  is anti American. Scandinavia, Canada and New Zealand are very successful socialist nations. 
[Ryan]
Nobody here, or the reenactors are belittling what the Nazis did. If anything, they are reminding the public that such deeds should not be repeated.

[Carlsen Highway]
Socialism is a responsible civilised community taking care of its members.
[Ryan]
No  your above suggests a preordained arbiter of what dictates a responsible and civilised community.

I counter that the community takes care of its members based on self-reliance, intercommunication, respect for the values of the host country. 

[Carlsen Highway]
Communism is a leveling of society that you need to kill ten per cent of your population to implement. 
[Ryan]
Thats how socialism starts, consult Marxs Theory of History.


(Although admittedly, those above have stolen a 1930's Communist-style poster motif)[/QUOTE]

[Carlsen Highway]
The Nazi's were not Socialists, despite their name. You couldn't get more right wing than a Nazi. 
[Ryan]
They are both socialist. Communism (economic socialism) is predicated on class, National Socialism is based on ethnicity or race. 

[Carlsen Highway]
There is a distinct difference between Socialism and Communism, which is what your equating these people with. They are not the same thing at all. 

[Ryan]
Both are totalitarian regimes. The only distinct difference is in the way that they divide and categorise and control and ultimately kill people.

[Carlsen Highway]
And also, I will say it again, whenever someone brings up the Nazis these days someone has to bring up Communism and point out they killed even more people. thereby implying that the Nazi's were not so bad. The Germans don't get a pass for Belsen and Auschwitz. 

[Ryan]
Nobody in their right minds is giving the Nazi regime or what they did a pass. History needs to be taken into context. The Nazi regime only lasted 12 years. You would do well to read upon the initial and superficial effects of communism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
This act was committed well before WW II by Communists who werent even of their own people. Subsequent history is replete with the successes of communism where it has been successfully (to the detriment of said country), implemented.

[Carlsen Highway]
This is what is worrying the belittling of Nazi crime, rather then an infatuation of the part of the PC brigade with Socialism as a cause. Don't make the mistake Americans do, where anything Socialist (meaning communist)  is anti American. Scandinavia, Canada and New Zealand are very successful socialist nations. 
[Ryan]
Nobody here, or the reenactors are belittling what the Nazis did. If anything, they are reminding the public that such deeds should not be repeated.

[Carlsen Highway]
Socialism is a responsible civilised community taking care of its members.
[Ryan]
No  your above suggests a preordained arbiter of what dictates a responsible and civilised community.

I counter that the community takes care of its members based on self-reliance, intercommunication, respect for the values of the host country. 

[Carlsen Highway]
Communism is a leveling of society that you need to kill ten per cent of your population to implement. 
[Ryan]
Thats how socialism starts, consult Marxs Theory of History.


(Although admittedly, those above have stolen a 1930's Communist-style poster motif)[/QUOTE]

----------


## Ryan

Apologies for the double post - I'm unable to edit it.

----------


## 300CALMAN

Socialism - A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
Communism - A theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.

OK definitions of the net, but that's about how I understand it. None of the western countries mentioned are socialist but have some socialist policies i.e. wealth redistribution. Even the US has social security, even if it's not great. Some countries have nothing ie no job no food no nothing.

I don't think anyone here would debate how evil the Nazis were, but to paint the Communist's as any better, especially Mao and Stalin is a gross distortion of history.

----------


## Carlsen Highway

> [Carlsen Highway]
> The Nazi's were not Socialists, despite their name. You couldn't get more right wing than a Nazi. 
> [Ryan]
> They are both socialist. Communism (economic socialism) is predicated on class, National Socialism is based on ethnicity or race. 
> 
> [Carlsen Highway]
> There is a distinct difference between Socialism and Communism, which is what your equating these people with. They are not the same thing at all. 
> 
> [Ryan]
> ...


[/QUOTE]


Seriously? 

The Nazis were not socialists. They were FASCISTS. I put that in capitals just to make sure. Someone must have told you this before now. Everybody knows this right? Fascist. They are the textbook definition of fascists. Fascists are extreme right wing groups. Once again: Nazi's = fascists.
They put "socialist"" in their name to try and steal working class members from the Communist groups that were popular at the time. It was a ruse.

I am well aware of the history of Communism, I am a historian. I don't need to read Wikipedia, but thanks for the link. But we were talking about Nazi's. We don't need "but what about the Communists" in the discussion, since the only point to doing that is to belittle the Nazi crimes, whether you intended that or not. I already addressed this in my earlier post but you did it again above when you say the Nazi regime ""only lasted twelve years."" and that history needs ""to be taken in context."
This is offensive, as its on the edge of holocaust denial. This is exactly what I was talking about earlier, this reimagining of the Nazi's with comparisons of them being ""not so bad"" compared to Stalin...

Start a thread about Communism somewhere if you want to talk about it, but you should stop making comparisons that come out in favour of Nazi's - in a thread that's about people glorifying Nazis.

----------


## Cordite

This thread started with a link to an incident of someone getting uber-offended at re-enactors of WW2 german soldiers.  

Too many nowadays get too offended by a lot of things - verging on and crossing into being oppressive of others.  Used to be the privilege of grumpy old men, like Victor Meldrew, but we have a generation of younger social justice warriors / Antifa taking it to an extreme (but by no means a modern phenomenon). 

Deliberately setting out to kill another IS deeply depraved - whether we justify it by ethnicity, sexual orientation, social class, mental capacity, political views, gestational age, associations, or just collateral damage.  But such is essentially a regularly occurring human activity.  "Crimes against humanity" - Tui

As for supposedly inappropriately absolving / humanising the Nazis etc. it is maybe rich at the same time to draw euphemistic distinctions between socialism and communism (I get it the words are sometimes synonymous, other times not, depending on who is doing the talking).

An interesting quickie look at the two words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-1k_MDB4J8

I'm with @Carlsen Highway in his distaste for anything with a swastika on it. It is an evil symbol as far as I'm concerned - but I'd maybe get a different opinion if I asked an Asian buddhist. What if the Nazis had used a normal Cross as their symbol?  Hey, wait, their national flag was a white cross on a red background.  Like the oriental buddhist, I'm not put off the cross for the reason of the Nazi Reich use of it, it means so much more than their distortion could ever undo.  Also, I own a Japanese Type 38 with an intact crysanthemum - did it get used to bayonet some pregnant woman, or a hospital patient in his bed?  But the Crysanthemum exists on, it's on the front of Japanese Passports to this date.  My Neighbour has a Mosin, was it used to keep Ukrainian rural folk from entering the cities for food? At least the Russians have gotten rid of that hammer and sickle on their flag now.  My Lee Enfields, was one of them used to strip Jewish settlers of their weapons before they drove on into an ambush? A bit blind and self-righteous to re-enact dressed as a British Empirialist soldier, really. British KZ Lager for the Boers?  Drives you nuts, but there's dried blood everywhere if you go want to go looking.  Again, very very human.

----------


## Ryan

> Seriously? 
> 
> The Nazis were not socialists. They were FASCISTS. I put that in capitals just to make sure. Someone must have told you this before now. Everybody knows this right? Fascist. They are the textbook definition of fascists. Fascists are extreme right wing groups. Once again: Nazi's = fascists.
> They put "socialist"" in their name to try and steal working class members from the Communist groups that were popular at the time. It was a ruse.
> 
> I am well aware of the history of Communism, I am a historian. I don't need to read Wikipedia, but thanks for the link. But we were talking about Nazi's. We don't need "but what about the Communists" in the discussion, since the only point to doing that is to belittle the Nazi crimes, whether you intended that or not. I already addressed this in my earlier post but you did it again above when you say the Nazi regime ""only lasted twelve years."" and that history needs ""to be taken in context."
> This is offensive, as its on the edge of holocaust denial. This is exactly what I was talking about earlier, this reimagining of the Nazi's with comparisons of them being ""not so bad"" compared to Stalin...
> 
> Start a thread about Communism somewhere if you want to talk about it, but you should stop making comparisons that come out in favour of Nazi's - in a thread that's about people glorifying Nazis.



Are you actually an accredited historian? Or just trying your hand at comedy? 

Instead of pearl clutching and breathlessly repeating the same rants about being "offended" and "holocaust denial", re-read my posts. All of your above accusations were previously addressed.

----------


## Maca49

> I'm offended by people that get offended easily


You just offended me, what the fuck do I do now!! :O O:

----------


## Steve123

> You just offended me, what the fuck do I do now!!


Seek counselling and blame others 

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

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## Cordite

I think re-enactors often do the Germans because they had smarter uniforms, better gear, better guns.  Naught to do with fascination with nazism.

Here is a 1910 postcard for us all to take in, reflect on, and even like.  It SHOULD really not be a big deal to see the odd Hakenkreuz but we are conditioned otherwise...



Best wishes for the coming year, you all.

----------


## Steve123

Seriously? 

The Nazis were not socialists. They were FASCISTS. I put that in capitals just to make sure. Someone must have told you this before now. Everybody knows this right? Fascist. They are the textbook definition of fascists. Fascists are extreme right wing groups. Once again: Nazi's = fascists.
They put "socialist"" in their name to try and steal working class members from the Communist groups that were popular at the time. It was a ruse.

I am well aware of the history of Communism, I am a historian. I don't need to read Wikipedia, but thanks for the link. But we were talking about Nazi's. We don't need "but what about the Communists" in the discussion, since the only point to doing that is to belittle the Nazi crimes, whether you intended that or not. I already addressed this in my earlier post but you did it again above when you say the Nazi regime ""only lasted twelve years."" and that history needs ""to be taken in context."
This is offensive, as its on the edge of holocaust denial. This is exactly what I was talking about earlier, this reimagining of the Nazi's with comparisons of them being ""not so bad"" compared to Stalin...

Start a thread about Communism somewhere if you want to talk about it, but you should stop making comparisons that come out in favour of Nazi's - in a thread that's about people glorifying Nazis.[/QUOTE]

All Totalitarianism is bad mmmmmmmmmmmkay

----------


## ebf

guys, for the love of dog or whatever you believe in, give it a rest...

go for a walk, have a wank, do whatever you need to do to stop discussing politics on the forum PLEASE !  :Grin:

----------


## Cordite

While aware of the horrors of Socialism/Communism we may be reluctant to discuss it in case it somehow lets the Nazis off the hook.  Really, it IS a given that even if everyone does something bad it does not absolve anyone else.  But ignoring widespread bad behaviour does not help objective historical enquiry.  We could also exclude from our discussion the equally imperial aspirations of Britain, Germany, France and Russia, the universality of antisemitism and the post-WW1 humiliation of Germany - but we'd never learn anything useful.

Nazis were people, just like us.  That should scare us.  But Germans have learnt more lessons than other peoples.  On my recent holiday which included Germany I noticed German cities and towns all have their own war cenotaphs that they must maintain as they're there, as is proper.  There is the occasional nonsensical inscription like "Died for our Freedom", but less frequently than in the English speaking world based on my observations, it is usually muted to the bare truth, like "Our Fallen".  One tiny chapel in a small village had a black and white passport size picture of a lot of young men, I did not have time to count, with their names.  The nazi death cult really brought in the grim reaper.  Back home again, a phrase like "Our Glorious Dead" does not belong on any cenotaph but rather on a Nazi Poster, tucked away in a library.

----------


## Max Headroom

The extremes of political belief be they left or right, are simply the glossy veneer over the soul of sick,selfish bastards.

----------


## GDMP

> While aware of the horrors of Socialism/Communism we may be reluctant to discuss it in case it somehow lets the Nazis off the hook.  Really, it IS a given that even if everyone does something bad it does not absolve anyone else.  But ignoring widespread bad behaviour does not help objective historical enquiry.  We could also exclude from our discussion the equally imperial aspirations of Britain, Germany, France and Russia, the universality of antisemitism and the post-WW1 humiliation of Germany - but we'd never learn anything useful.
> 
> Nazis were people, just like us.  That should scare us.  But Germans have learnt more lessons than other peoples.  On my recent holiday which included Germany I noticed German cities and towns all have their own war cenotaphs that they must maintain as they're there, as is proper.  There is the occasional nonsensical inscription like "Died for our Freedom", but less frequently than in the English speaking world based on my observations, it is usually muted to the bare truth, like "Our Fallen".  One tiny chapel in a small village had a black and white passport size picture of a lot of young men, I did not have time to count, with their names.  The nazi death cult really brought in the grim reaper.  Back home again, a phrase like "Our Glorious Dead" does not belong on any cenotaph but rather on a Nazi Poster, tucked away in a library.


I don't reckon "Our Glorious Dead" has much to do with the Nazi's......It was more a way to console people and give the terrible slaughter of both world wars some meaning,as so many families were touched by this especially in the Great War.War is not glorious and most died in horrible circumstances,but also most wanted to believe their loved ones did not die for nothing or in vain....and that I believe is where the use of such phrases on monuments,is really coming from.

----------


## Walker

Intrestingly going through some sociology/criminology stuff and turns out alot of the far left and right leaders have been genuine, what is now diagnosed as phycopathes. Politics seems to attract that inclinded individual.

----------


## Cordite

@Walker, high-functioning psychopaths are with us everywhere, often in chief exec positions, usually moving on to their next high-paid job before the damage they wreak catches up.
 @GDMP, I get those reasons, really do.  But problem is the Nazis had the same reasons.  The language deflects the bereaved from holding perpetrators in government to account for their very inglorious widow/orphanhood.  But maybe people knew anyway but preferred the shared lie as it gave some comfort.  Not blaming them for that.  The dead do not come back no matter how much you scream and hammer at the wall.

----------


## GDMP

If there is one thing I have worked out about Govt in general.....it is that they are usually the problem, rather than the solution.

----------


## Carlsen Highway

> Are you actually an accredited historian? Or just trying your hand at comedy? 
> 
> Instead of pearl clutching and breathlessly repeating the same rants about being "offended" and "holocaust denial", re-read my posts. All of your above accusations were previously addressed.


I am certain I have taught more history than you.  :Have A Nice Day:  My wife thinks I'm funny. Other people, less so. 
What clutching? Pearls?
My dear chap, your posts were written by a guy who didn't know the Nazis were fascists, is seemingly unaware that democracy is a basic tenet of socialism, and hasn't understood that Stalin's Russia was not really communist. 
Anyway. It's your keyboard. I can't stop you typing.

----------


## kotuku

> If there is one thing I have worked out about Govt in general.....it is that they are usually the problem, rather than the solution.


 yup 100001%correct-pity you couldnt claim a payrise for stating the very fucking obvious -no im not taking the piss.ive personally nursed 3 ladies whose families were executed and put up the chimney and seeing  those three Auscwhitz tattooes courtesy of the SS just makes me realise what ignorant cunts humans can be .  those ladies were absolute ladies warm engaging genuine -didnt need to be given this but they were and to them i bow my head in respect.
 if ya dont like what ive said fucking tough -i wont resile one iota!.
my late ex FIL was Charley Uphams batman at one stage-and his lifelong friend/racehorse trainer.Ive hear Charles Hazlett Upham VC&bar comment on the nazis -in a single word HATRED+
Reeneactors -well not my cup of tea ,but if the want to replay rommel in the desert -live&let live considering Rommel in all his brilliance was forced to suicide by this mob ofparanoid incestuous heathen syncophants!

----------


## 300CALMAN

> You just offended me, what the fuck do I do now!!


Melt like a snowflake  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:

----------


## GDMP

> yup 100001%correct-pity you couldnt claim a payrise for stating the very fucking obvious -no im not taking the piss.ive personally nursed 3 ladies whose families were executed and put up the chimney and seeing  those three Auscwhitz tattooes courtesy of the SS just makes me realise what ignorant cunts humans can be .  those ladies were absolute ladies warm engaging genuine -didnt need to be given this but they were and to them i bow my head in respect.
>  if ya dont like what ive said fucking tough -i wont resile one iota!.
> my late ex FIL was Charley Uphams batman at one stage-and his lifelong friend/racehorse trainer.Ive hear Charles Hazlett Upham VC&bar comment on the nazis -in a single word HATRED+
> Reeneactors -well not my cup of tea ,but if the want to replay rommel in the desert -live&let live considering Rommel in all his brilliance was forced to suicide by this mob ofparanoid incestuous heathen syncophants!


What a rambling,nutty reply.....

----------


## kotuku

> What a rambling,nutty reply.....


 really wiseass who are you johny come lately -yet another fucking keyboard expert eh big boy??

----------


## GDMP

Yep....just as I said,a Nutter.

----------


## Cordite

1 million Waffen SS soldiers, many of whom conscripts, couldn't all fit into those KZ Lager guard towers.  What a hateful rant @kotuku

----------


## Cordite

Had to look that one up, a very funny idiom @GDMP, these threads are very entertaining but not really worth losing sleep over.  It's all very old news we are discussing after all.

pearl-clutching - English
Etymology: From the image of a genteel woman clutching her pearl necklace in shock.
Adjective: pearl-clutching (comparative more pearl-clutching, superlative most pearl-clutching)
(idiomatic, derogatory) Prim, prudish, or easily offended. 
Related terms: pearl-clutcher

----------


## Cordite

Anyway, while researching "pearl clutching" I found these very entertaining cartoons from the US, largely irrelevant to NZ of course, except perhaps the first two which are universal, the trump of truth over evil...

 Nazism was a big user of political correctness.  If anything, PC may be a more reliable marker of nazi / totalitarian tendencies than SS re-enacting.  What a totalitarian regimes needs most of all?  Sheep. 

 In this drawing he got the Truimpant hairstyle right.

 a bit grotesque

 you can sit and pick things out of this one for a while.  I love the squawking spotter monocular atop.

----------


## 300CALMAN

> I am certain I have taught more history than you.  My wife thinks I'm funny. Other people, less so. 
> What clutching? Pearls?
> My dear chap, your posts were written by a guy who didn't know the Nazis were fascists, is seemingly unaware that democracy is a basic tenet of socialism, and hasn't understood that Stalin's Russia was not really communist. 
> Anyway. It's your keyboard. I can't stop you typing.


Those are some interesting definitions. "democracy is a basic tenet of socialism" not sure where that meets state control of supply and distribution. There

I also thought that the basis of communism was state ownership of land.

----------


## tiroatedson

> Attachment 94611
> 
> guys, for the love of dog or whatever you believe in, give it a rest...
> 
> go for a walk, have a wank, do whatever you need to do to stop discussing politics on the forum PLEASE !


Its not politics...its history. If you dont like it dont read it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## Taff

> I am not stretching the truth. Seven years of parades and posters doesn't suddenly make mass murderers out of peaceful people. They had a deeply anti-Semitic culture, which the Nazis made government policy.   
> 
> I have noticed people de-criminalising and inventing excuses for the Nazi in the last few years or so. There seems to be a new generation of young men growing up who dont want the Nazis to be bad guys. There is some kind of glamour there which they must still find attractive. Youtube is full of it.
> 
> And frankly, the men doing that re enacting in the article are the same. I saw the same crowd, at MOTAT once. They had all their Nazi army uniforms and some cars and so forth. There wasn't one of them under the age of forty and they were all running around breathing heavily pretending they were in a war and were 21 year old Nazi supermen. It was all vaguely embarassing and unsettling at the same time. Just don't. There has to be a better fantasy you can act out with your mates.


Nowhere have I attempted to excuse the nazi,s only point out some facts which the Majority of historians agree with, the problems in Germany started after WW1 with the reprimands demanded by the French , the Then German government blamed the bankers, unfairly , ( when did you last here of a politician/ leader owning up to there mistakes) who happened to have a number of Jews amongst them, so the indoctrination of the people did not start and end within seven yrs.

----------


## Cordite

> Nowhere have I attempted to excuse the nazi,s only point out some facts which the Majority of historians agree with, the problems in Germany started after WW1 with the reprimands demanded by the French , the Then German government blamed the bankers, unfairly , ( when did you last here of a politician/ leader owning up to there mistakes) who happened to have a number of Jews amongst them, so the indoctrination of the people did not start and end within seven yrs.


Tapping into an inexhaustible vein of antisemitism of course, which well predated WW1.  From "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" 1903 forgery to Martin Luther's inexcusable 1543 rant on "The Jews and Their Lies".  The protocols are still circulated, many an anti-zionist have read them and feels himself well-informed...

----------


## Tussock

Seriously? 

The Nazis were not socialists. They were FASCISTS. I put that in capitals just to make sure. Someone must have told you this before now. Everybody knows this right? Fascist. They are the textbook definition of fascists. Fascists are extreme right wing groups. Once again: Nazi's = fascists.
They put "socialist"" in their name to try and steal working class members from the Communist groups that were popular at the time. It was a ruse.

I am well aware of the history of Communism, I am a historian. I don't need to read Wikipedia, but thanks for the link. But we were talking about Nazi's. We don't need "but what about the Communists" in the discussion, since the only point to doing that is to belittle the Nazi crimes, whether you intended that or not. I already addressed this in my earlier post but you did it again above when you say the Nazi regime ""only lasted twelve years."" and that history needs ""to be taken in context."
This is offensive, as its on the edge of holocaust denial. This is exactly what I was talking about earlier, this reimagining of the Nazi's with comparisons of them being ""not so bad"" compared to Stalin...

Start a thread about Communism somewhere if you want to talk about it, but you should stop making comparisons that come out in favour of Nazi's - in a thread that's about people glorifying Nazis.[/QUOTE]
 the
New Zealand is the most libertarian country in the world, which makes it the most far right country in the world. NZ pioneered socialism, making them us most far left country. I would suggest this is because political terms like left and right are for politics, and thus are not required to make any sense. In a libertarian world, the economy is largely composed of collectives and cooperatives and whatnot, (NZs meat processors, irrigation companies, etc etc). As in communism. Likewise, in a libertarian country you can collectively decide to pool money and give it to poor people (ie, welfare). So extreme right and extreme left, in terms of economics come full circle. Most of the communist and libertarian youth have the same political position, they just don't understand it. 

The real argument is central planning and command and control economies. These run head long into physics, where they fight an endless battle with entropy they will inevitably lose. Much of that entropy comes from the fact people are the weak link. In order to get the system to run right, people must behave in a predictable fashion. Thus, the ultimate battle of a centrally planned economy, left or right, is getting the people to behave as numbers in a panning model. The only way to do that is authoritarianism and totalitarianism. This is why Russia has 48 million hectares of prime temperate farmland out of production to this day. Nature won't play the game. 

I think you will find a good percentage of the modern internet Nazis are Jews having a good laugh.

----------


## Cordite

@Apollo

National Socialism and Internationalist socialism were both genocidal ideologies, notwithstanding modern revisions of the latter (which however appear to have gone unnoticed by Mao Zedong and Pol Pot.

Very interesting article on precisely this issue, for those interested.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...m-1186455.html

----------


## sako75

FFS leave the politics out of this forum

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## woods223

FFS, have some of you  forgotten the name of this web-site?  New Zealand Hunting and Shooting

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## Cordite

I take it neither of you read the interesting article then?  (-:  

When did the history of genocide stop being interesting???

----------


## northdude

Theres a few areas of this forum that need to be deleted as they are topics other than hunting and shooting wonder how many of the whingers have taken part in them

----------


## Cordite

> Theres a few areas of this forum that need to be deleted as they are topics other than hunting and shooting wonder how many of the whingers have taken part in them


It's cool how we are all different backgrounds, and not stereotypical knuckle draggers, but able to have conversations on a wide range of topics.  I'm amazed by some people's niche expertises, like  @Flyblown with keeping dust out of a truck going through a dustbowl desert, etc etc.

The reservation of politics (noting this thread is about history, really, not politics) and religion is not because either is deemed inherently wrong --- but moderators just don't have time for heated arguments and forum members getting upset by one another and being put off interacting on the Forum.  It is about maintaining civility.

----------


## northdude

Yea wierd mentality some have if i read a thread i personally dont like or not interested in i dont take part in it but others are free to get involved i like the variety of discussions here i wouldnt be here if there was only 1 topic it would be boring as fuk

----------


## Tussock

History exists. Politics does not. Don't believe me? Find me single political position that actually exists somewhere. None of those mentioned above ever existed anywhere as more than a mongrel mix breed of a half dozen other positions. Like China, the capitalist communists. History is useful. Politics is not.

----------


## Woody

History is very useful helping to identify the foibles of politics and politicians. Lest we Forget.

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## Tussock

Without history you we might all end up shouting nonsense at each other, instead of just most of us.

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## shooternz

Most of the sheeple do not learn from history they keep voting for the same scumbag politicians that shafted them in the last 10 elections
The politicians know that the  sheeple are stupid and will keep voting for the same BS they always have, 
We are lucky our politicians are not extreme left or right they are just untrustworthy out for what they can pocket for themselves 
they forget that they work for the electorate  and  toe the party line,

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## timattalon

I still like the quote that nappies and politicians should be changed regularly and for the same reasons.......Correct me if I am wrong but I think it was Mark Twain....

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## northdude

Sheeple i like that one

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## Cordite

> Sheeple i like that one


Includes gutless politicians who go and vote with the herd, never ask pertinent questions, etc.

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## Tussock

You get drench and whatever veterinarian care the banks can afford and its 80 years since they sent you to slaughter. Quit your bleating, its time to get up and go to the shearing shed. Maaaaa.

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## shooternz

I like the Swiss system if your elected representative goes against  what the electorate wishes they can be fired
it has only happened once to my knowledge 
We should adopt it here it would sort the useless bastards out

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## Tussock

> I like the Swiss system if your elected representative goes against  what the electorate wishes they can be fired
> it has only happened once to my knowledge 
> We should adopt it here it would sort the useless bastards out


That is the old system. Good old Swiss.

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