# Hunting > Game Bird Hunting >  Crossing show lines

## el borracho

It is interesting talking to people that use dogs to hunt birds that cross with show lines to slow their dogs down to a sedate pace for Jo average. 

I have never agreed with this but does that mean the dog wont hunt well in our conditions ? I invite comments from your experiences either via first hand or what you have heard from others with credibility  - I say that because you can talk to any show breeder and their dogs are this and that birdy raingy and what ever all of course while "never being seen"

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## Pointer

to quote ex forum member Kawhia, 

"say no to show"

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## el borracho

whilst I 100% agree with you "is" there a case to be had for the average Jo who does not know how to train or doesn't give the time to do so .I recognize our Setters and Pointers can be Ferraris in the hands of the lazy ,ignorant hunter . 
I will state a case for a Setter breeder I have talked to that stated his clientele specifically ask for non field trial breed animals but bench dogs as they hunter closer and slower --potentially.

My personal thoughts if you cant cut it with a well breed Pointing dog get a fat lab or Spaniel .Anyway mine is not the only opinion that counts and it will be interesting to see the thoughts of others also

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## upnorth uplander

theres a line of pointers in NZ that is field trial/ working lines from Ireland, the line has only been bred to show lines in this country, to get that line into our working pointers here would meen a 3/4 working ,1/4 show bred dog, it wasn't done to slow a dog down like your asking and has nothing to do with your question but just wanted to put it out there.

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## el borracho

Never the less Z it has been done for a reason -do you know why other than for pure confirmation reason ? Do they hunt well or worse

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## upnorth uplander

theres one on the trial scene i think, but thats a 3/4 show,1/4 field , *pointer* knows which dog it is

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## el borracho

any idea of its performance at all ?  

Its an interesting concept if it works getting show into the faster dogs especially Setters and Pointers ----buttttt one could ask are they actually any slower or is that just a misconception spread around by those who have added this mix .
A Setter chap I have spoken to north of Auckland has used show blood and says his dogs hunt how he wants them to -now I don't know as I have not seen them but also an older dog of either breeding will hunt closer possibly due to sheer experience of the handler putting its brakes on a lot over time due to tight cover

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## upnorth uplander

Tony's setters are a mix of different blood lines and they dont hunt out very far at all, his dogs would get out 2x my spaniels and thats it

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## Pointer

Two things,

*El B* I think any breeder of pointers or setters, who puts show into their lines to '_slow them down for hunters_' needs to be shot. Thats what they have been selected for, for well over 150 years. I would advise anyone thinking along those lines to perhaps look at other breeds, plenty of closer ranging and slower running pointing breeds out there, take your pick. 

To follow on from *uplanders* train of thought, I'm going to play the devils advocate. I find this thread interesting so I'll leave two thoughts with everyone and I'd like to see how this topic develops. Should be a goodie if the spaniel cavalry arrives:



First, a quote - "the dog is more important than the pedigree" - Dr. Leon Mortenson

Secondly, a dog, 'Speckle of Ardoon'.

Thoughts anyone?

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## el borracho

First, a quote - "the dog is more important than the pedigree" - Dr. Leon Mortenson. 

This  statement above would back breeding to ability of  the dog not its breeding being either or either show or field



Ardoon Gundogs

Speckle of Ardoon





In the Sporting Dog (Oct-Nov 1989) Keith Erlandson looked upon by many field trial enthusiasts as one of the greatest gundog handlers of all time recalled candidly two of his finest dogs in an article entitled 'The Greatest Trial Dogs In My Life' one was Speckle of Ardoon, and the article is reprinted below.

Another client, Will Sloan from Northern Ireland - known as The Ardoon Man' and nowadays better known in pointer and setter circles than in spaniels - acquired by devious means a cocker bitch which would not work. He mated her to a golden show dog, from a strain which had still retained some working instincts and reared two pups.

He ran them on to seven months, developed plenty of drive in them by letting them free-hunt rabbits in thick whins and having the odd hare course.

He phoned me up and said he would send the bitch over for me to train. She was the greatest thing ever, he said. I told him I didn't believe him. She was by a show dog from a non working dam. It could not be done. Well, Nature, in her capriciousness, had decided to take a hand, just to remind us how little we know about breeding, and that at the end of the day, she is still the boss.
Keith Erlandson with Speckle


'Speckle' duly arrived and even thought the Irish are sometimes known to exaggerate this was not the case this time. She was everything, and more, that Will claimed. She would hunt any cover with absolute venom, with great drive and style. She would not retrieve to hand but invariably went in the opposite direction and buried the dummy or whatever.

This was rectified easily. It is frequently a feature of the breed, but once sound on retrieving to hand, she would throw a dead hare around like a sparrow.

She was red roan, like raspberry jam spread on concrete, weighed twentythree pounds fit and had the most perfect bone and balance, being short coupled and well up on the leg without being stilty.

Pound for pound, she was the deadliest working machine of all the twenty field trial champions I have made up, covering a period of thirtythree years. At this time, I had a team of seven trial spaniels, all requiring shooting experience, so the amount of game I shot for her was limited.

It didn't matter. She had such inbuilt quality that she could handle any trial situation without vast amounts of game being shot for her beforehand. In her first season, she only had eighteen head of game shot over her before she gained her title, and that includes game shot in the actual events. She won four open stakes that season and ran an exceptional Championship, but things seemed a bit political that year and she only won a diploma.

For the next three seasons I eased up on her in competition as I had another very good young bitch I was wanting to bring on, but in her second season I won the Cocker Championship at Blenhiem for Will Sloan. She came into my ownership at the end of that season.
Speckle of Ardoon
Keen in retirement
F.T. Ch Speckle of Ardoon at 12 years of age.

Altogether she won three Championships in succession, the only spaniel of any breed to do so, and the record remains to this day. She won the title of nine open stakes and won the Game Fair tests against springers when the test was an individual challenge and not an international team event.

Like 'Sele,' ( F.T. Ch. Dinas Dewi Sele) she never bred anything in her own class but her sons and daughters have had a tremendous influence on the breed. She retired from competition at four and a half but lived to be fourteen and four months. She was brilliant, dauntless and dangerous to know.

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## el borracho

who here uses a show dog line  to hunt

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## Ruff

You can always find an exception to prove a non existent rule... Speckle was a freak but what else was ever produced from the same show lines? nothing...

Mortenson was right, as he usually was, but he only used working lines himself. I believe the same things, pedigree are more likely to tell me what I don;t want than what i do. When I look over a pedigree I am more concerned with red flags than any super dogs. Leon also believed anything beyond grandparents really had bugger all influence unless it was prominent on both sides of the pedigree.

My experiences is that the main quality lost in using non working lines or show lines is biddibility... many of the show lines still hunt, but can be real buggers to train because no one has really selected proper hunting temperament in a while. Just my five cents worth....

Oh and the division is least most pronounced in versatiles, then labs then setters and pointers and finally is a huge freaking divide in spaniels. :Thumbsup:

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## el borracho

> You can always find an exception to prove a non existent rule... Speckle was a freak but what else was ever produced from the same show lines? nothing...
> 
> Mortenson was right, as he usually was, but he only used working lines himself. I believe the same things, pedigree are more likely to tell me what I don;t want than what i do. When I look over a pedigree I am more concerned with red flags than any super dogs. Leon also believed anything beyond grandparents really had bugger all influence unless it was prominent on both sides of the pedigree.
> 
> My experiences is that the main quality lost in using non working lines or show lines is biddibility... many of the show lines still hunt, but can be real buggers to train because no one has really selected proper hunting temperament in a while. Just my five cents worth....
> 
> Oh and the division is least most pronounced in versatiles, then labs then setters and pointers and finally is a huge freaking divide in spaniels.


some very interesting observations Ruff particularly about bidability and one I can imagine to be true given the working breeder recognizes these traits hopefully and breeds toward a trait like that .

I agree even the show dog can hunt but if the finer traits haven't been breed for it would be hit and miss to if you would get a workable aniimal to hunt over .
I am a doubting Thomas with many people that tell me of the wonders there dog can do without first seeing that dog work as I know they are not wind up toys and need input to create manners  even if birdy as a birdy dog can also piss off for the day and self hunt,

Does a show dog put the possibility of closer working into a line or just create a dog that hangs around your feet and ruin your day when a working line is running long and holding point and birds???

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## Ruff

I would doubt it but haven;t worked with a wide enough cross section of both lines to be definitive. 

I can ask Whitehead if you like?

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## el borracho

Ruff are you a Pointer and Setter man or a  Spaniel man? I chatted with Bob about his electric little cockers-great dogs!

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## EeeBees

You have to remember biddabillity in the show ring only has to last for 2 minutes...that is the allotted span for each individual evaluation...

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## EeeBees

> It is interesting talking to people that use dogs to hunt birds that cross with show lines to slow their dogs down to a sedate pace for Jo average.


Sounds more like an excuse than a reason.

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## Pointer

> You can always find an exception to prove a non existent rule... Speckle was a freak but what else was ever produced from the same show lines? nothing...


I agree entirely, I just put both points up to stimulate discussion, I thought you would have something interesting to add to the discussion, and more importantly word it better than me  :Have A Nice Day:  Another interesting thing is being such a violent outcross Speckle never produced anything in her own league.




> Mortenson was right, as he usually was, but he only used working lines himself. I believe the same things, pedigree are more likely to tell me what I don;t want than what i do. When I look over a pedigree I am more concerned with red flags than any super dogs. Leon also believed anything beyond grandparents really had bugger all influence unless it was prominent on both sides of the pedigree.


I think this is a very interesting point, anything over grandparents are 1/8 or less in the old speak... pretty minimal on their own. As a side note, there was a half show dog used by Mortenson, luckily the other half was the great FTCH Sharnberry Shooter  :Have A Nice Day:  He put this half-show half Sharnberry dog to two separate bitches, Honey and Intrigue, linebreeding on Shooter and minimising the show blood.




> My experiences is that the main quality lost in using non working lines or show lines is biddibility... many of the show lines still hunt, but can be real buggers to train because no one has really selected proper hunting temperament in a while. Just my five cents worth....
> 
> Oh and the division is least most pronounced in versatiles, then labs then setters and pointers and finally is a huge freaking divide in spaniels.


Seeing other peoples hunting dogs for remedial training every day, there is probably no one here more qualified to make that statement than you. Can't make a silk purse out of sows ear! Having seen quite a few pointers lately, draws me to the conclusion that the work/show split is as obvious as night and day in that particular breed, never the twain shall meet...

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## el borracho

I dont know Ruff but do you train others dogs ? I see from looking through dog photos you have a spaniel and a lab.

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## RCGSP

> she never bred anything in her own class


That tells me everything I have to know right there.

Freaks can come from many places. What I'm chasing is consistently good dogs.

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## el borracho

RCGSP - I couldn't even find that quote of mine you used , where was it from ?
Its a funny ol thing were talking here because there's several pups out there from this particular Northland breeder that he says people are very happy with for shooting pheasant and retrieving ducks . In saying that either their expectations are less than ours or the dogs work ok --the Dam is from working lines I believe though.
Interesting points raised so far though being bidability and trainability and also that a hunter that doesnt appreciate the finer points of working dogs should have a soft toy not a real dog  ---now at what stage will we then say these mix line dogs are from working lines if they are working ??

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## mikee

> who here uses a show dog line  to hunt


Me, 
2 reasons 
1. Make the best of what you got
2. my hunting style is more of a walk in the wild with a gun under arm and dogs about

Different from most

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## el borracho

with what type of dog  mikee and what kind of cover.

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## Wirehunt

> RCGSP - and also that a hunter that doesnt appreciate the finer points of working dogs should have a soft toy not a real dog  ---


See that's where it gets real interesting, cause mine are all working dogs, and X's. All hard apart from the whippet X's who are hard on the hill but soft arses at home.  As a rule first crosses, but I find pure breeds ALL a arse pain. Yes I've had a few and no doubt I'll have a few more too.

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## el borracho

> See that's where it gets real interesting, cause mine are all working dogs, and X's. All hard apart from the whippet X's who are hard on the hill but soft arses at home.  As a rule first crosses, but I find pure breeds ALL a arse pain. Yes I've had a few and no doubt I'll have a few more too.


Wirehunt are you talking crossing your dogs with different breeds ? This is really talking about pure breed bird dogs from both show and working lines being crossed and the effects from those crosses .
I take it your talking pig  dogs ??

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## Wirehunt

Nope, no pigdogs around here.  All hard working rabbiters, which is about the hardest life there is for a dog (but a hell of a lot of fun!)
Got some bird dog X's in there though, couple of springer/foxies, GWP and about 1/8 lab.  The foxie puts a bit of range into them.   It might take six crosses with purebreeds to do what can be done in one with the right dog mix.

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## RCGSP

> RCGSP - I couldn't even find that quote of mine you used , where was it from ?


The end of the article on that spanner

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## RCGSP

> See that's where it gets real interesting, cause mine are all working dogs, and X's. All hard apart from the whippet X's who are hard on the hill but soft arses at home.  As a rule first crosses, but I find pure breeds ALL a arse pain. Yes I've had a few and no doubt I'll have a few more too.


I mean no disrespect but breeding rabbiters isn't like breeding bird dogs. Rabbiters need to be bred/selected for a relatively small number of traits. Bird dog breeding, particularly the versatiles requires selection for a huge number of traits.

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## upnorth uplander

I wont hesitate to mate my dog with the 1/2 show, 1/2 working  pointer i mentioned earlier

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## el borracho

> The end of the article on that spanner


aaarrgghh yes there it is -I thought I had said it !Interesting about the sons and daughters also

Speckle of Ardoon
Keen in retirement
F.T. Ch Speckle of Ardoon at 12 years of age.

Altogether she won three Championships in succession, the only spaniel of any breed to do so, and the record remains to this day. She won the title of nine open stakes and won the Game Fair tests against springers when the test was an individual challenge and not an international team event.

Like 'Sele,' ( F.T. Ch. Dinas Dewi Sele) she never bred anything in her own class but her sons and daughters have had a tremendous influence on the breed. She retired from competition at four and a half but lived to be fourteen and four months. She was brilliant, dauntless and dangerous to know

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## el borracho

> I mean no disrespect but breeding rabbiters isn't like breeding bird dogs. Rabbiters need to be bred/selected for a relatively small number of traits. Bird dog breeding, particularly the versatiles requires selection for a huge number of traits.


I would agree with Ryan 100 % on this , there are many things in the ability frame work and temperament that must be recognized and breed for !! 

Upnorth Uplander is a good hunter of birds and has no problem with the mix "for only closer hunting " ? opinion on this Z or in general has it or do you think it isnt the hindrance we like to believe it is .

Now field trialing that dog may be very hard though!!!!!  ????

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## upnorth uplander

the cross i have been talking about was only done for looks, the breeder wanted a black dog to show.

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## Ruff

No I don;t have Lab, I have a lab in for training currently. Personally I run spaniels.

I train whatever comes through the gate, primarily gundog breeds but not always. New Zealand Gundogs. is my website.

My thoughts on the crosses is they are often extremely good dogs. (Mutt's not show/working crosses) but again, it's dependent on the parent selection whether you get all of the traits you want. While I see many crosses which are very capable *I have never seen one better than the best of the pure breeds made to make it.*

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## Wirehunt

> I mean no disrespect but breeding rabbiters isn't like breeding bird dogs.[/B] Bird dog breeding, particularly the versatiles requires selection for a huge number of traits.


I find that rather amusing.  Done much of it?  It is in fact one of the harder ones to do as so much is expected of them.
Kill ferrets, BUT not mine
Range long in open ground
Don't range in tight ground
Retrieve is very handy
Kill cats
Don't touch possums
Bail pigs if I say so
Indicate live holes
Don't touch dead shit (this is hardest of the lot)
DO NOT bark in the kennels
Bark when onto something

If your good enough come deer stalking with me, but don't chase them!

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## RCGSP

Versatiles have to be capable of all of that plus in addition retrieving isn't just handy, it's a requirement that they do it very well with a soft mouth. In addition when breeding you have to consider pointing instinct, bird handling, water work, and tracking.

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## Wirehunt

hahahahaha  All the rabbit dogs point if you can read them properly, tracking, hahahahahahahaaaaa  standard procedure!!

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## el borracho

im getting one of  Wirehunt dogs to field trial with -they do it all at half the price  :Wink:

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## Pointer

> Upnorth Uplander is a good hunter of birds and has no problem with the mix "for only closer hunting " ? opinion on this Z or in general has it or do you think it isnt the hindrance we like to believe it is


The thing is, you have to look at the dogs in question. *Uplander* had the half Irish bitch with him for a season or two, he knows her performance. I have seen her in person also, she is a hard running bitch, big and fast. Those in the know reckon she is better than her full work blooded dam. I think his male dog of the older NZ working lines, who I was fortunate enough to have had the pleasure of shooting over this season, would go well over her. While not a mating I would do, things can only improve, being 3/4 work.

As a side note, she was in turn mated to another show dog, so sadly those pups were unfortunately 3/4 show. I have seen pups from this mating as well; respectfully all I will say is, is that they a far cry from thier Irish FTCH ancestors. Two matings is all it took

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## mikee

> with what type of dog  mikee and what kind of cover.


2 Pointers and where ever we are, generally riverbeds, broken cover and some open paddocks. Versatile's would probably be better suited to the type of ground we normally stroll but hey I prefer the pointer(s)
Both our dogs are from Chesterhope if it means anything to you, means nothing to us, except they are pointer breeders (apparently good show lines).
Dogs are brother and sister (yes was a mistake) so both fixed

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## el borracho

I am enjoying the post but wish we had many more that could share their thoughts but thank you guys for sharing your thoughts even if they run against the grain of us purist working  lines people of which I am one .

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## Pointer

Why, are you not hearing what you want to hear? Pretty queer statement

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## TeRei

> 2 Pointers and where ever we are, generally riverbeds, broken cover and some open paddocks. Versatile's would probably be better suited to the type of ground we normally stroll but hey I prefer the pointer(s)
> Both our dogs are from Chesterhope if it means anything to you, means nothing to us, except they are pointer breeders (apparently good show lines).
> Dogs are brother and sister (yes was a mistake) so both fixed


Same here. Our dogs will go all day and go spastic if they dont get a real long work out each week.Love the breed. Unbelievable temperament. Not a purist because they are hunting dogs. :Wink:

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## Pointer

Te Rei, what do you have to compare them to?

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## el borracho

> Why, are you not hearing what you want to hear? Pretty queer statement


 There is no right or wrong answer only ones views and opinions and experiences which we are hearing which are interesting and evolve discussion amongst us all

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## Pointer

just the "us purist working lines people" made me chuckle

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## el borracho

you to are in the  ngati purist

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## Pointer

I've got so much to reply to that... all of it a mixture of rant and drivel  :Sick:  No one cares. Hows your bitch?

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## el borracho

I had an email from the breeder updating me on vets jabs and alike and all going well -6 months we will see her here and breed the first litter when she is around 2 years old -she is currently 7 months from memory.The first litter will be to John Pilchers dog which  Woody was the sire -looking forward to it for sure --how about your new pup?

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## Pointer

All good so far, waiting for rabies titre test at 6 months. Phil Ruge speaks highly of John Pilchers Woody son, reckons he is a machine

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## Ruff

Yeah, any pointer ever bred, even three legged ones will be considered "hard going" in comparison to the average Lab for instance... stay with me... unfair comparison I know... pointers are a hard running breed this includes the slowest to the fastest... as a breed compared to other breeds... To ascertain if you have a hard going dog of your chosen breed at some point it is imperative to run them against and with another dog of known quantity to know if it really is going as hard as you think, finding as fast as you think, etc. This was one of Leon's golden rules. He used the analogy that every racehorse looks fast galloping on it's own... all of these horses look fast galloping on their own... all of them are a class above the norm... one of them is possibly the greatest thoroughbred of modern day history, but you only know it because the others are there. If the all galloped individually they would all look like extremely fast horses.... one is supremely faster than the others... but only by comparison.

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## Ruff

I thought hunters with working lines were the purists?    :Pacman:

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## Pointer

Thing is Ruff, there are some real plodders out there. Calling her hard going was in comparison to our trials stuff. And it is unwise to compare pointers to pointers in NZ, you have to compare NZ pointers to NZ setters as the setters here are of a better quality in my opinion. As you say, they all look great by themselves

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## Pointer

> I thought hunters with working lines were the purists?


Long may it last  :Cool:

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## Ruff

> Thing is Ruff, there are some real plodders out there. Calling her hard going was in comparison to our trials stuff. And it is unwise to compare pointers to pointers in NZ, you have to compare NZ pointers to NZ setters as the setters here are of a better quality in my opinion. As you say, they all look great by themselves


Yeah I get that...  :Thumbsup:

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## el borracho

we have been very lucky over the years with the likes of Leon , Noel, Frank tommy  and Ian Hendren all who have imported excellent working animals in NZ and given many the opportunity to have excellent dogs .
Hopefully with   Gerald Devine young  GORTINREAGH bitch which is coming we can increase again the amount of good Setters in NZ .

link for anybody that cares to look at Gerald Devines line of Dogs 


Gerald Devine  GORTINREAGH « The English Setter Club of Ireland

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## Ruff

> we have been very lucky over the years with the likes of Leon , Noel, Frank tommy  and Ian Hendren all who have imported excellent working animals in NZ and given many the opportunity to have excellent dogs .
> Hopefully with   Gerald Devine young – GORTINREAGH bitch which is coming we can increase again the amount of good Setters in NZ .
> 
> link for anybody that cares to look at Gerald Devines line of Dogs 
> 
> 
> Gerald Devine – GORTINREAGH « The English Setter Club of Ireland


 :Thumbsup:

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## upnorth uplander

FTCH Wingfield Lace (Sharnberry Quin X Wingfield Jemima) is the setter Leon had with show blood in it. If I were to do a mating between my dog and the ponsonby bitch mentioned earlier, the pups would end up being the same mix of working/show as Lace

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## el borracho

Is that bitch from Ponsonby seen field action Z , maybe you might consider becoming a fine and elegant Setter man  like myself

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## upnorth uplander

I have no problem owning a setter, but I do have 1 problem with running them. I have hunted up north with you, F-T and Skid who all own setters, both Skid n F-T ran 2 dogs a day because of thier long coats causing the dog to over heat, I didnt have to with my pointer..

I had the ponsonby bitch for 2 seasons and she saw lots of field time, shes a natural retriever and she points

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## upnorth uplander

Spudattack, next time Im driving thru Whangas heading up home Ill have to stop in and smoke some of your good stuff, fucked if I know what your on about but im in

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## el borracho

Best to eat it smoking is bad for your health  LOL

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## upnorth uplander

HaHaHa spudattack removed his post, now I look like im already on the good shit

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## Spudattack

> HaHaHa spudattack removed his post, now I look like im already on the good shit


Haha, sorry mate, posted that on the wrong thread!

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## Ruff

LOL

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## Wirehunt

Maybe a better question to ask instead of this X between show/working would be "How often do you work your dogs?"

The whole reason the rabbiting pack do the lot is they work daily, you work a showpony cross everyday and I will almost guarantee it will come good.  My lot have had the last three weeks off then I took them out yesterday, a bit warm but they just didn't want to work.  :Grin:  Shit happens, but they have a lot in front of them.....
Oh, got three pure breeds coming, a straight lab and two straight whippets.  I also had a fucking good black lab all papered up there earlier this year and that fucker was HARD, right up till cancer got him :rolleyes:

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## Ruff

I think that's true of all dogs Wirehair... work and experience count for a lot...

but it comes under the category of "all things being equal".

My dogs work every single day too... I'm lucky, I'm rural, just walking my dogs they are working.

I am very lucky I have a very well respected dog here that is now in his twilight but I think I have seen several dogs from the same kennel with the potential to be as good as him, even though many consider him to be the cream of the crop, but at his peak he was picking up on driven pheasant shoots at least three days a week and walks consist of him, me and a shotgun busting bunnies... regardless of what genes are running through his veins, he KNOWS more than all those other dogs... He's had thousands of birds and bunnies, a few hundred ducks and has hunted all over the country in different terrains.... it has to help.

*BUT* If you took a X and one breed like him and gave the same exposure... I know which one would come out on top.

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## Wirehunt

Don't be so sure Ruff.  :Wink:

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## el borracho

If you want to cook a chocolate cake you put into that cake the right ingredients to make that cake, not just unknown  stuff   like  gravel as it will probably break your tooth , hey it might not to as you may just swallow it .
Working dog breeders do this to the best of their ability depending whats on the ground to breed to and breed to the traits they like in another dog and their dog - known ingredients versus  the show recipe which is all about coat , how far its tail is from its hips , are its ears pretty blahdy blahdy blah --it may end up pretty but you missed out putting the chocolate into the cake with no extra bird finding drive ,bidability and all the other fine points that make a working dog worth breeding to. The whole process has enough chance in it why make the devide bigger .
A questioned I posed before -at what stage does a show dog that hunts gets accepted as a working dog and worth breeding to though?

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## Wirehunt

Some of the best cakes in fact with any cooking is when you put in a twist, still got the basics in but when you change shit around is when you find gold.

Show mutts have as good a chance as any, it's just that it is never bought out in them.  Put them, or rather their pups in the right situation and give them the work and they will come to something possibly.  No point condeeming them _if they are untried_

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## Ruff

> Don't be so sure Ruff.


i kind of am....  :Cool: 

I've run them all... crosses and purebreds and for the longest time i would have agreed with you... 

The old man was on the rabbit board down south and he had lurchers, spaniels, terriers and mixes of all of these... and yes, for what you are doing what you run is the best, as with the old man.

But for what I do I've never seen a mutt yet that could match a top spaniel doing what it is supposed to do.

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## Wirehunt

What do you do apart from sitting here?   :Grin:   :Grin:   :Grin:

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## el borracho

He trains dogs for a living Wirehunt, did you not know,truth is I didnt till last week

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## Pointer

> A questioned I posed before -at what stage does a show dog that hunts gets accepted as a working dog and worth breeding to though?


Goes back to what I posted originally...

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## Ruff

Wirehair, I don;t think you should give my posts any more credibility than I have given yours... It's just an opinion. I think it's based on something, but you'd have to take that on trust and there's no need to... just believe what you believe and don't get all mixed up over it.

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## Ruff

> Goes back to what I posted originally...


I agree... performance alone would be enough for me... at some point you need to test of there is some ability to pass on the desired traits... it is unlikely the pedigree will indicate how.

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## upnorth uplander

"A dog has to be good to win a fairly judged chamionship trial, but a great dog not properly polished or handled, will not win much. Obedience that is not up to championship standard will let him down. When breeding, knowing a dog is far more important than his trial wins".  Quoted from "Bird Dogs, Yesterday Today & Tomorrow" by Dr Leon Mortensen

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## Pointer

> I agree... performance alone would be enough for me... at some point you need to test of there is some ability to pass on the desired traits... it is unlikely the pedigree will indicate how.


I agree. Measured as you said against other great dogs, if the show cross was doing well, then why wouldn't you use it. But as you put above, being a great dog is one thing, being able to produce one is quite a different thing.

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## EeeBees

To me, maintaining the integraty of the breed, in type, conformation, exemplary prey drive and soundness of temperament is paramount.   The European example where the dog must have a 'beauty' award in the showring as part of their field title helps in maintaining this integraty.

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## el borracho

Europe's a diverse place where are you referring to ? and are their aesthetic confirmations different to ours .

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## EeeBees

France...I do not know that except for those of the Epagneul Breton where musculature, allure, correct height, etc are greatly valued and even the dentation (with some judges being pendantic to the point of counting every tooth (they recognise the breed as a HUNTING DOG in the purest sense)...I do know however that the English Setter is highly regarded in France and Italy.  Furthermore bitches and dogs are confirmed before they can be bred from.

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## Hales Smut

As I am strongly involved in spaniels, I can see the positive and negative points of the system.  Along the FCI rules a dog needs 2 CACT or 2 CACIT's and a "very good" in show to become a FTCH or Int FTCH.  This also has bad aspects.  It would be O.K if they only accept dogs bred under this rules.  But it's perfectly possible to trial a dog ( spaniel, pointing breed or retriever) bred in the U.K for work only. These dogs frequently are superior in pace, drive, style, etc......  He might never become a FTCH but still win many trials.  Personally I think that the FCI system isn't good.  I do not longer believe in the " good and beautifull" idea.  In Germany there is a strong connection between field and bench for their working dogs and they have nothing to compete against the other countries in Europe.  Looking for a bird dog I would never buy a GSP in Germany.

Trial spaniels in the UK. , these days, are very fast and stylish. But also are far to small, light in body and most dramaticly lack hunting desire and gamefinding ability.  They look extremely spectacular on light ground but don't seem to know what they are doing.  The ribcage is that tiny that there is no longer place for decent lungs and so lack stamina. I've seem French dual purpose springers been mixed up with British trial stuff and produce good, strong spaniels with plenty of size, ribcage and stamina.  Dogs that still can fetch a pheasant out of a river with 3/4 feet high steep banks.

The same problem seems to be there with pointing dogs in France an Italy.  Fast, stylish, almost always further ranging, but so much difficulties finding and pointing the game. 
I work a lot with Irish working lines from people shooting woodcock.  In either breed I don't think show dogs are the answer.  Trying to find a decent kennel of shooting dogs, not selected on trial needs, but on shooting needd and try to mix this up with your trial dogs.

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## Pointer

> The same problem seems to be there with pointing dogs in France an Italy.  Fast, stylish, almost always further ranging, but so much difficulties finding and pointing the game. 
> I work a lot with Irish working lines from people shooting woodcock.  In either breed I don't think show dogs are the answer.  Trying to find a decent kennel of shooting dogs, not selected on trial needs, but on shooting needd and try to mix this up with your trial dogs.


Hi Smut. I can't speak of spaniels as I have no experience whatsoever with them, but I essentially agree with the rest of your statement. In regards to your comment about Italian and French pointers, I agree 100% - there was a thread on this forum a while back about it. It is too easy to get caught up in the romance of big running dogs, but some of these Italian dogs are taking 2 years to stand game - many hundreds of birds. Some are hunting with the eye and not the nose, and the fact that thier trials system doesn't select for the best hunting dog anymore. I feel someone here looking to bring in a pointer to NZ would do well to avoid those countries.

As for your comment about putting trials blood to a good shooting line, one of our great dogmen here in NZ, Dr. Mortenson reckoned it was the quickest way to ruin a good shooting line haha!

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## el borracho

Our trials line is our shooting line so whadya mean Pointer ? In saying that having seen some of the dogs run from Italy they appear to run hugggeeee on fairly flat ground with little cover -past that I know squat of them .
Our trial dogs must be able to hunt first and formost

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## upnorth uplander

El B, i think in NZ we have working lines and show lines, with in the working lines there is a split between the hunting and the trial lines, its small but its there

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## el borracho

I have always figured for "most hunters" a dog decision is made fairly blindly so they could be show breed dogs or just dogs breed with not always a great deal og knowledge going into the mix -of course there are some that make an effort .In saying that our trial pool is not so great that many would in affect have one of these dogs either from Pointer Setter variety especially from the GSP breed and certainly the lab , spaniel  bunch also .My thoughts

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## EeeBees

Pointer wrote...

As for your comment about putting trials blood to a good shooting line, one of our great dogmen here in NZ, Dr. Mortenson reckoned it was the quickest way to ruin a good shooting line haha! 

I do think there is merit in this especially regarding dogs run in pigeon trials....and begging your pardon El B, you can tell the trial dogs that are hunted from those which are not...

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## Ruff

> I have always figured for "most hunters" a dog decision is made fairly blindly so they could be show breed dogs or just dogs breed with not always a great deal og knowledge going into the mix -of course there are some that make an effort .In saying that our trial pool is not so great that many would in affect have one of these dogs either from Pointer Setter variety especially from the GSP breed and certainly the lab , spaniel  bunch also .My thoughts



Wow, a pretty Big claim there mate. I have always believe trials are an extremely valuable test but... and here's is my main axiom...* "when the trial becomes the end goal, the breed is fucked"*

A trial *MUST* always be a test of the *BEST* hunting dog... when it is the best trial dog the point is lost.... and I've been trialling in NZ since 1984 and Live Game trialling since 1989.

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## EeeBees

I agree, Ruff...people who are serious about shooting are not going to be bothered with just any dog..they want one that is going to bring home the game...the dog that takes your breathe away with their malicious intent and possession is what makes shooting over the dog so exciting and somehow hugely humbling...it is ancient...

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## Ruff

> I agree, Ruff...people who are serious about shooting are not going to be bothered with just any dog..they want one that is going to bring home the game...the dog that takes your breathe away with their malicious intent and possession is what makes shooting over the dog so exciting and somehow hugely humbling...it is ancient...


No, we disagree....  :Yuush: 

You see *some* use the axiom quoted above to dismiss why their dog does not excell in trials... that's just a cop out. 

A great hunting dog is a great trialling dog... until the trials are changed to suit the trial dog... to date, and from what I have seen, this has not happened in NZ.

But must always be forward in our thoughts.

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## Pointer

> Our trials line is our shooting line so whadya mean Pointer ?


Mortensons words not mine. I do, however disagree that the trialling line is the shooting line, especially in pointers, as *Uplander* said.

I'm with *Ruff*, the day the focus becomes titles and silverware, we're buggered. Our P&S system is a flawed enough yard stick as it is

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## el borracho

I cannot comment on the trialers of today as I really don't know many very personally but yes I agree first and foremost a dog ''must" be able to hunt .
The guys I trialed with when I last trialed all hunted to my knowledge and I hunted plenty of pheasants with a few of them 
As far as pigeon trials go some dislike them I enjoy them and see them as a place to show the skill and manners of an animal - some  what circus like to a degree but most certainly few dogs excell and the average dog and handler little to no hope .

I always believe the proofs in the pudding and although I dont shoot alot nowdays I still hunt my dog full on !

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## el borracho

> Mortensons words not mine. I do, however disagree that the trialling line is the shooting line, especially in pointers, as *Uplander* said.
> 
> I'm with *Ruff*, the day the focus becomes titles and silverware, we're buggered. Our P&S system is a flawed enough yard stick as it is


Please explain flawed ?All Contests are about silverware

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## Pointer

The flaws in our testing system have been thrashed to death, I'm sure you have heard it all before. Still, it's all we have. I'm all for it, as long as people can see it for what it is

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## Ruff

Well of course there is flaws... the difference, simply, between a scenario where it is you and your dog and when it is you, two guns, a judge, a steward and gallery must have an effect.... Trials are a wonderful judging standard, but should *never* be considered the be all and end all... there are many many ways to judge and astertsain a dogs ability and the thinking man who wants a *better* dog _(NOT a better trialling dog)_ takes all things into consideration as he or she makes decisions on how they wish to take the breeds forward. Trials are a wonderul benchmark, but they are not the ONLY one... We have new person here posting on the forum using the name "Hales Smut"... Hales Smut was the most influential dog on the modern spaniel breed, in my opinion, He may have won a trial, possibly not, but he certainly never titled, and yet he lives in legend as one of the most significant dogs in history.... I have Brick of Ballyblack so I understand this well... Trials are an indicator, they *ARE NOT* the only scale by which any thinking dog person will ever judge a great dog.

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## el borracho

Exactly !!!Its just about all we have given we don't have moor's and prairies full of game .I have never been one to complain about  a fun time and an opportunity to see great running and pointing by good dogs --it aint easy other wise we would all be winning .
The live game trials are where its at but as I said above -no facilities to successfully run them consistently with game.
Will I compete against you at some time Pointer ???

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## Pointer

No doubt *El B*, but not for a while, I don't have anything worth running at present

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## Ruff

> Exactly !!!Its just about all we have given we don't have moor's and prairies full of game .I have never been one to complain about  a fun time and an opportunity to see great running and pointing by good dogs --it aint easy other wise we would all be winning .
> The live game trials are where its at but as I said above -no facilities to successfully run them consistently with game.
> Will I compete against you at some time Pointer ???


Hunting or trialling.... I got grounds if you both want to come.... and if you trust me me to judge...  :Have A Nice Day:

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## el borracho

You mean just for me and Pointer.Id enjoy a catch up in bid season to run and or shoot over each others dogs

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## Pointer

If the match is based apon finds not polish, sure

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## el borracho

the lot , a finished dog.Id rather catch up for sheer dogging pleasure and leave contests to live game trials under pressure of performance and polish

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## Pointer

I do think that Ruff misunderstood. I think you initial comment meant compete against me in a trial, and yes that will have to wait until the next dog. If you meant a match, then if the match is based on polish and manners it would be waste of time for me to turn up, a triallists dog would always beat the hunters dog every time. However, if *Ruff* was to propose a match in which a way that the number of finds and shootable birds presented for the gun was the criteria, then yeah, I'd give it a go. Be a good day out. Getting to shoot *Ruff*s birds will always be a good day out   :Psmiley:  .


*edit* what does this have to do with show dogs?

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## el borracho

hell yes id hunt his birds too but in saying that what would a one off contest achieve ?nothing either way

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## Ruff

Well, I'm not stupid enough to invite you two bastards to shoot my birds, but you do have to make up your minds... LOL  :Grin: 

Let's not just wank on in a forum environment.... and I think we have here a perfect match... a trial dog and a hunting dog... kind of... 

I am gonna piss them both off now... cause the trial dog isn't going to hunt well, from what the handler says, and the hunting isn't going to have polish as the hunting fella says...


so from where i stand, neither of you have meet the standard because the standard requires a great hunting dog with polish... if neither of you have that you are blowing bulshit up  everyone's arse.

So the question is, do either of you have a great hunting dog that can front up in a trial and show how good it is, do either of you have a trial dog that can front up and show how well it hunts, or are you both just pissing on our shoes and telling us it's raining????

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## el borracho

my dog will hunt just fine,he is a hunting dog that trials also.do you have a pointing dog Ruff ?

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## RCGSP

If pointer shows up make sure you've got a set of binoculars handy

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## el borracho

for him or his dog  :Grin:

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## upnorth uplander

> No doubt *El B*, but not for a while, I don't have anything worth running at present


considering pointer posted this , I dont see any bullshit from him *RUFF*

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## Pointer

> considering pointer posted this , I dont see any bullshit from him *RUFF*


Thats exactly it, I'm honest about my dogs abilities. I'm the first to admit both of our shortcomings. But if there is one thing that dog does well, and it has saved him from oblivion more than once, is that he can find and handle pheasants. *Ruff* I thought you were being sporting in letting us both have crack at your pheasants haha!?

Most people who know me, know that I have made a habit over the last three years of inviting triallists and dogmen (dogwomen too) with known good dogs to my place or grounds I have access to hunt. So far I have I've seen germans, huns, good setters of both varieties (gordons don't count), even a frog dog once! As of recently I have spent a lot of time and money travelling far and wide looking at dogs and meeting people. Also, watching trials in a few different countries. Trust me, there are no rose-tinted glasses to be worn here when it comes to discussing my own dog. 

I would be mad to tell a guy whos' dog has won at champ level that my dog is better than his, quite frankly that is naive, and as *EL B* indicated better left to the trials format. The only way I could ever compete with such a dog wouldn't be on manners, it would be on finds, hence saying if the match was on equal terms, it would be a good day out. Especially when they are your birds  :Psmiley: 


Back to the discussion, I'm going to post a pedigree here, I think it is relevant to the initial discussion. My apologies if anyone owns this dog!  *El B* asked when does a half show dog cease to be show?

Here is a pedigree Ledgands Pointer Pedigree Database

The sire, is the greatest home bred pointer NZ has seen, the only dog to consistantly beat Woody, FTCH Wingfield Banner QC. As good a sire as you could find in NZ from what is considered arguably the best mating to happen in NZ. The Aussie dam,has show in her background. Both show dogs were mated to FTCHs, one of those champions being the sire of Banner, the excellent Irish import FTCH Innistona Shoot, making a useful 6.25% linebreeding on him, the best sire to come to NZ. The other half show mating produced a dual champion, and anything that can win under the Aussie trials format will probably be better than our stuff. 

Im my view, the show crosses has been proven, and obviously worked well to win in thier trials. This to me is an example of when its safe to say show blood has been mitigated successfully. Obviously the progeny will the ultimate test, this is was just a purely academic example.

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## el borracho

Good post Pointer -this is why I like controversial posts as they bring out some great information .
As far as a hunting and trial dogs go they should do the same in the field if the trialists hunts regularly -I have to say over the last several years I have done little with a gun but have often ventured out to my favorite training spot to keep my dogs nose in on birds .
The difference would be between the two dogs at best manners on backing and steady to shot but a hunting dog may back perfectly well and the rest is just drive and skill .

 It is said the trial dog will go faster and find more but a good hunting dog should be able to compete "I" believe . The cover we have here in NZ is quite different from an open field where we trial and big hard running does not always suit the grounds so a whistle or control must be used to rein a dog in .
Another thing is dogs are not wind up toys and have good and bad days -it not as though trialist get to train their dogs anymore than other people , either can spend time training if they wish and mold a dogs ability's

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## Ruff

I really just wanted to wind you both up... really... the discussion can on infinitely... the point I am really making in all this is actually how trials started.

At the end of the day... one dog running against another is the end of the discussion.

And Jim the answer, is No, not at the moment.

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## Pointer

Don't get me wrong *El B*. Speed, range and drive aren't Spots' issue, anyone thats seen him won't dispute that.... As for pointing and backing, its a working pointer, one that didn't do those things instinctively, usually has a pretty short sojourn on this planet.

I could see where you were going with it *Ruff*, it goes back to the silverware statement.. Trials were invented as tests for selecting breeding stock. When it becomes dog sport in place of the thing they were designed to emulate,  hunting, we are buggered. Look at the way the yanks have gone

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## Ruff

Exactly....  :Grin:

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## el borracho

to me its a matter of training either way ---pigeon trials , live game trials or general hunting it is practice of skill set and manners taught and if a dog has them or not . If you have been a consistent and frequent trainer chances are you will have a very good dog but there is also that natural animal that no matter what is just great and if your lucky enough to have one -your lucky!

I dont put my dog INTI above other dogs other than we have developed a set of manners which he uses and he has great drive -I do wish now in retrospect I had hunted all those years properly with him to make him great -but alas .

Contest do show a good dog and sometimes a great dog but it is consistent wins which show a consistent dog. Hopefully this  translates into the field also on wild game as one cannot profess to have a finnished dog if it cannot work game -feild trial champion or not

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## Ruff

I have to disagree... certainly a well trained dog can *appear* to be a better dog than an untrained one, and a great dog with massive drive untrained is a menace... but the old axiom of "you can kick it out of them, but you can;t kick it into them" holds true. No amount of training makes a poor dog good, although a skilled trainer can create the illusion... this is what buggers up breeding programs.

I have a mate, a great mate, who I think could title a fox terrier... it says nothing of the dog's ability.

Hale's Smut was wildly inconsistent... excitedly so... Earlandson always said whatever he did was SPECTACULAR whether it was smashing cover, flushing birds, running in or whatever... he was exciting... but he was untoward... GREAT breeding stock, poor trial quality.

There are so many variables and it is not a specific written formula... if it were we'd all be producing more champions than you can poke a stick at... (If you train like that).

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## el borracho

I sometimes wonder if were just juggling semantics - how many of us are really running and seeing enough animals hunting ,trialing to make proper decisions -I know I have not and dont really know any others that can as they are only seeing what they choose to see -its a great big community of unseen dogs and even a contest of 2 dogs does not answer to many questions

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## Ruff

Meybe you need to know a little more about some of us then.... I hunt dogs EVERY DAY!

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## el borracho

Im sure being a trainer that hunts everyday you have several FTCH behind your name ?

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## Hales Smut

Trials are the only possibilty to compare dogs in approxomatly the same conditions. The problem arises when the judging puts more importance in trained then in "born" qualities.  The only qualities wich go on from parent to pup are the "natural" qualities.  Training is human and not inherited. As Ruff says " you can kick it out but ........ " I agree some training is needed, but it should not become more important than the natural qualities.

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## el borracho

No NZ dog  in pointer and setter trials gets far without both quality's

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## RCGSP

> No NZ dog  in pointer and setter trials gets far without both quality's


Well that's just not true

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## el borracho

state your case

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## Pointer

> Well that's just not true


Yep... sad but true

I reckon our system rewards the wrong type of dog sometimes. What is greater, a  dog that puts on consistent displays of great work, ranging, finding and producing birds, or a mediocre dog that gets placings because it didn't do anything wrong?

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## el borracho

Mediocre dogs do plenty wrong and don't often get through due to manners . Part of a "finished" dogs make up should be their good manners both in trial and field especially when you hunt with other dogs --backing - obeying whistle commands consistently -retrieving game - utilizing the ground to best effect - finding finding finding ,hopefully holding 

 One could be critical of the type of ranging a dog does in the trials compared to the reality of cover we actually have on a whole in NZ but I haven't been to the live game trials for years and haven't seen the current crop of dogs work that cover -Ryan has . 


I haven't been around the current trial people long enough at all to know if they hunt their dogs or not but from my past years we were all hard out upland game hunters and for some with continentals both duck and upland game hunters .

My thoughts and experiences come from 10 years ago

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## el borracho

> Yep... sad but true
> 
> I reckon our system rewards the wrong type of dog sometimes. What is greater, a  dog that puts on consistent displays of great work, ranging, finding and producing birds, or a mediocre dog that gets placings because it didn't do anything wrong?


 this kinda doesnt make sense ??as the dog didnt do anything wrong , found pointed and had good manners --what more is it that you want to see

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## el borracho

I have been sent a very interesting article from Robyn Gaskin which is frank and honest about field trialing and have asked if I can publish it here .If so I will place it under a new thread -Its a good read !

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## Ruff

> Mediocre dogs do plenty wrong and don't often get through due to manners . Part of a "finished" dogs make up should be their good manners both in trial and field especially when you hunt with other dogs --backing - obeying whistle commands consistently -retrieving game - utilizing the ground to best effect - finding finding finding ,hopefully holding 
> 
>  One could be critical of the type of ranging a dog does in the trials compared to the reality of cover we actually have on a whole in NZ but I haven't been to the live game trials for years and haven't seen the current crop of dogs work that cover -Ryan has . 
> 
> 
> I haven't been around the current trial people long enough at all to know if they hunt their dogs or not but from my past years we were all hard out upland game hunters and for some with continentals both duck and upland game hunters .
> 
> My thoughts and experiences come from 10 years ago


It makes absolute sense and has been a problem with our pigeon trial negative judging system for a long time... Pigeon trials rewardthe training more than the dog. A dynamic with great pace style and finding ability can be penalised on a minor handling issue where as a mediocre dog, of less natural ability but with either better training, or by virtue of its mediocrity doesn;t put a foot wrong and wins... this is fine, but it does nothing for the future of the breeds.

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## RCGSP

Pointer and Ruff have already hit the main points I had in mind. I will say that I feel it extends beyond just the negative judging system though.

It's a bit difficult to explain in a post as I don't really have time to spell it all out. 

I think trialling is very important especially for breeders but I think what's important to take away from it is not the ribbons and toasted sandwich makers but what you learn from seeing your dogs run against others. People bag on pigeon trials but I like the because I can see my dogs run the same ground and the same birds as a variety of other dogs and to me it makes for the most accurate comparison.

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## RCGSP

> I sometimes wonder if were just juggling semantics - how many of us are really running and seeing enough animals hunting ,trialing to make proper decisions -I know I have not and dont really know any others that can as they are only seeing what they choose to see -its a great big community of unseen dogs and even a contest of 2 dogs does not answer to many questions


How much is enough? 

I've owned/trained/trialed/hunted 3 pointing breeds in 2 countries under half a dozen trial formats and 3 testing systems and I currently own dogs from whelped in 4 different countries and have seen and hunted over dogs from several others. I don't claim to be an expert but I think I have a reasonable perspective.

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## el borracho

> It makes absolute sense and has been a problem with our pigeon trial negative judging system for a long time... Pigeon trials rewardthe training more than the dog. A dynamic with great pace style and finding ability can be penalized on a minor handling issue where as a mediocre dog, of less natural ability but with either better training, or by virtue of its mediocrity doesnt put a foot wrong and wins... this is fine, but it does nothing for the future of the breeds.


 what your failing to recognize here is consistency of dog  !! 

Mediocre may have a win but the better dogs will win consistently .
What do you term as a minor handling issue ? 

One thing one notes about dogs is they also have their off days ,they screw up and dont do the best job on any given day so consistency over time and trials must be recognized rather than a one  win .

A negative judging system doesn't appeal to all but is based on your dog going about its work with the least amount of handling possible -a dog that knows whats it there to do gets on with the task at hand.A dog that consistently screws up may in fact be being handled poorly and the handler may need to revisit their training .I feel people make excuses for their lack of in put into training their dogs -if you feel you have lost consistently or seen this it might be you that needs to change their view on whose dog is better than another's   --I fail to have a problem with it personally --what would you all suggest is better given our poor game areas and numbers and ability to run live game trials ???

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## el borracho

This was said to me by a very knowledgeable and able Dog  person and I agree with  100%

I am constantly amazed by the attitude of people who don’t trial with respect to dogs who do. Every P&S dog who has been titled in NZ game trials (and I certainly would NOT claim this for pigeon trials) is a hunting dog. They are work-bred hunting dogs who have been taught manners and proven they can perform to a high standard in a public arena on WILD birds. There may well be better dogs out there, but we will never know unless they compete. 

Where do folk get the idea that you can win game trials (or braced pigeon trials for that matter) by being mediocre and doing no wrong? You must do a lot right! Judges withhold wins regularly from sub-standard performances. This is in contrast to conventional down-the-line pigeon trials where the dog with the most points wins, regardless of the standard on the day.

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## RCGSP

> This is in contrast to conventional down-the-line pigeon trials where the dog with the most points wins, regardless of the standard on the day.


There is a minimum standard in down the line as well. A dog must score at least a 75 to get a challenge point. It has been withheld many times.

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## el borracho

that is a good thing then as it doesn't  allow challenge point wins for sub standard work which would be  undermining  our ability to say we have high standards amongst our working dogs

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## Pointer

> Mediocre dogs do plenty wrong and don't often get through due to manners


Either you and I have different perceptions of mediocre, or I hadn't explained that properly. Ruff hit it on the head, how can a consistently great gamefinder who makes a mistake and is out worse than a mediocre gamefinder who gets the nod because he made no mistakes? Rewarding the handler, not the breeder.




> This was said to me by a very knowledgeable and able Dog  person and I agree with  100%
> 
> ...Where do folk get the idea that you can win game trials (or braced pigeon trials for that matter) by being mediocre and doing no wrong? You must do a lot right! Judges withhold wins regularly from sub-standard performances. This is in contrast to conventional down-the-line pigeon trials where the dog with the most points wins, regardless of the standard on the day.


Quoting other people without naming them means nothing...

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## el borracho

Short answer - your dogs ok your not that's how

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## EeeBees

It is utter folly to base your breeding programme on a competition base...especially when the  competition format has small or miniscle numbers involved as it is in this country...if there were entries of 40 plus dogs it might make some difference...in the meantime, any breeder with even only a couple of neurons synapsing happily will know that conformation, type, prey drive, stamina, courage yardy yardy yardy are really what allows a breed to sustain itself and to endure..

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## el borracho

?? What better view would you have than being able to see the potential dogs work and be handled --pretty good place to begin and end i would think -your going to see more working dogs at comps than anywhere else.And to boot most come from great working lines

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## EeeBees

So watching a whole heap of other breeds of dogs is going to teach me what about my breed...?


A competition may show case your dog's qualities, but it will never be the competition which put those qualities into the bloodlines.

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## el borracho

If its one run at trials yes if not best of luck

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## EeeBees

The dogs make a trial, the trial doesnt make the dogs.

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## el borracho

point was at trials if your breed is well represented you get to make good opinions on the dogs -how well they work and handle all in one place --hard to do that anywhere else .Most tend to have a solid line behind them also. what breed do you have

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## el borracho

i see its a Brittany! ive never seen one work

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## EeeBees

Epagneul Breton...aka French Brittany

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## Ruff

> The dogs make a trial, the trial doesnt make the dogs.


But trial results can and should shape a breed and is the best place to get an overview of the breed.

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## gqhoon

I used to have a similar view as *Victoria* regarding competitive types of Trials…..that was until I entered one. While I am a firm believer of ‘Test’ type evaluations as opposed to ‘Trial’, there is a tremendous amount of benefit to be had from running in competative Trials. However, they should never be the sole determining factor in breeding selection.

Often, running a good dog against a mediocre one will mean the good dog doesn’t put on much of a show. Rather, it just does what it needs to in order to get by. But if you run two good dogs against each other, and you will see the better one lift it’s game and really shine. A lot of the Specialists seem to do this naturally, but my GWP took a while to realise what it needed to do in order to become competitive. *Ryen’s* Quinn is probably the best example I’ve seen of a Versatile that really chomps at the bit to get out there and do the business.

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## el borracho

my Setter has been no different after a 7 year lay off of trialing -it wasnt quite sure how big to run especially in ground with very low cover but is now growing to understand .Most dogs that trial are reasonable -not all ! Often youll compare the dog for its benefits in its  work and certainly not against a flop beside it that is pissing around .

From my past trialing days over 10 years ago the standard was good for most but still only one can win and that is the dog that shows the best work "on the day" . My own dog has started out in a good fashion in the trials  but yesterday cleared a creek in our park of anything with feathers and certainly didnt stop to point or listen to my whistle -the little shit

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## EeeBees

ElB you write 

Most dogs that trial are reasonable

I do not want to breed gundogs that are just reasonable ...it is no good them being reasonable for 15 to 20 odd minutes...

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## el borracho

reasonable means they're not crap and quite acceptable .You may well want to breed super dogs but do you have the lines to breed to that are great and how many are you going to breed to get those dogs ?? Where will you prove them ?Im sure when you arrive at your finish dogs well see them but until then im sure they'll be "reasonable"

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## RCGSP

In the case of the versatiles, trials performance isn't the only thing that should shape the breed as their job entails more than just bird work but I definitely think it's important as an evaluation tool. 




> *Ryen’s* Quinn is probably the best example I’ve seen of a Versatile that really chomps at the bit to get out there and do the business.


Thanks. I'm waiting to see if his pups have the same kind of drive.

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## Ruff

> ElB you write 
> 
> Most dogs that trial are reasonable
> 
> I do not want to breed gundogs that are just reasonable ...it is no good them being reasonable for 15 to 20 odd minutes...


If you don;t run them against known quantities how do you know they are anything more than reasonable?

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## Ruff

> In the case of the versatiles, trials performance isn't the only thing that should shape the breed as their job entails more than just bird work but I definitely think it's important as an evaluation tool. 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. I'm waiting to see if his pups have the same kind of drive.


Always an exciting time.

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## Wirehunt

Sigh.  So long as your mutt isn't half pug put the work in and it will preform to a degree.  

The breeding the breeding the breeding.  But only to a point.  If you don't put the work into them then they are all just a mutt, maybe a good mutt, but just a mutt.  Some have a bit of inbuilt for some thing's but not other thing's, yet they can learn *IF* you know how to show them what you want.
Then you've got to get along with them and sync with them, which at times is way more then any breeding or anything else has to do with it.

*A bad trainer can wreak the best breed dog there is*.

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## RCGSP

The better bred the dog the easier they are to train and develop into a hunting dog and the easier they are to "sync" with.

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## el borracho

breeding for bidability  is very important if you want easier trained dogs.

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## EeeBees

> breeding for bidability  is very important if you want easier trained dogs.


temperament is fundamental to the scheme of things...

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## Ruff

> Sigh.  So long as your mutt isn't half pug put the work in and it will preform to a degree.  
> 
> The breeding the breeding the breeding.  But only to a point.  If you don't put the work into them then they are all just a mutt, maybe a good mutt, but just a mutt.  Some have a bit of inbuilt for some thing's but not other thing's, yet they can learn *IF* you know how to show them what you want.
> Then you've got to get along with them and sync with them, which at times is way more then any breeding or anything else has to do with it.
> 
> *A bad trainer can wreak the best breed dog there is*.


Absolutely!

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## el borracho

> Sigh.  So long as your mutt isn't half pug put the work in and it will preform to a degree.  
> 
> The breeding the breeding the breeding.  But only to a point.  If you don't put the work into them then they are all just a mutt, maybe a good mutt, but just a mutt.  Some have a bit of inbuilt for some thing's but not other thing's, yet they can learn *IF* you know how to show them what you want.
> Then you've got to get along with them and sync with them, which at times is way more then any breeding or anything else has to do with it.
> 
> *A bad trainer can wreak the best breed dog there is*.


as long as your realistic about the dogs temperament and potential I would agree with you wirehunt but to what level this dog can achieve compared to better breed animals will probably go untested and only ever end up a rural myth if its half good !

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## EeeBees

> as long as your realistic about the dogs temperament and potential I would agree with you wirehunt but to what level this dog can achieve compared to better breed animals will probably go untested and only ever end up a rural myth if its half good !


How do you mean realistic...if the dog has a iffy temperament...its a fact, no need to be realistic about it...it is either of good temperament or not.  I am however still caught up with the reasonable term...do you not think that the rough shooter, well some of us anyway, want a very high standard of  work in the field from our dogs, just as we would in a trial...if you have dogs possessed and totally driven in their work, I cannot see reasonable as being a good enough level...a very high standard of work, I correct myself, a focused, intense portrayal of their prey drive, with an acknowledged connection with the handler...I for one would not mind in the least my dog being the subject of a rural myth.

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## el borracho

Let your results speak for you

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## EeeBees

> Let your results speak for you


I do...

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## el borracho

then you probably got a reasonable dog

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## EeeBees

How do you see your dog, then?

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## el borracho

pretty reasonable given his lack of work time --I put him up to be tested against others and let that be his credentials and not what I might romance

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## EeeBees

if you are inferring that I am romanciing about my dogs, then you are wrong...I know how they work in the field, I do not need to compete with anyone to know that...and while I appreciate their pedigrees are liberally splattered with French trial successes and the care of those breeders, they being the end result of all that embues them with qualities that make them more than reasonable to me...work in the rough is what makes the gundog...

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## el borracho

> pretty reasonable given his lack of work time --I put him up to be tested against others and let that be his credentials and not what I might romance


I cannot see you mentioned there at all ! 
i do find this statement quite tell tale and well worn though of romantics "I do not need to compete with anyone to know that.."
What is it that you want someone to say of a dog they have never seen in the public arena being tested against its peers other than its probably quite reasonable ??

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## Ruff

I'm a dog man.

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## el borracho

Im a short man

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## Wirehunt

And that's where the whole thing goes to shit.   Cause some of those myths are just a bit true.
Myself if I had a dog that only worked feather, well, it would be long gone.  Which to me is why trials aren't much chop, if I can get a dog that looks the part preferably from hunting parents then it's a goer.
Then ball is my court.
I had one myth dog, a mutt no less who was fantastic on everything, but even she had a major issue.  Fucking possums.

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## Ruff

> Im a short man


Sorry if I came off as flippant, I wasn't, I meant it.

Over the years i have owned and hunted over Spaniels, Labs, a GSP, a few crosses.... In training I have worked just about every popular breeds, and many not so popular breed you can imagine on the NZ scene.

I have immense respect for good pointing dogs. I'd dearly love to own one if I felt it was the best hunting dog for the style of hunting I do most often. they aren't. I won't keep one just to trial it. Spaniels suit my work best these days... where I hunt and train owning a setter or pointer would be like owning a Ferrari in Tokyo...

Not everyone would agree with that either.... Bob, who I have immense respect for, believes and will happily tell you he shot more roosters when he hunted GSP's... 

I don;t get a choice about what I breed i get to work with as a commercial trainer, what they bring through the gate is what I work with... hence I don;t think it is fair to put a label on what I am other than a dog person. I keep the most suitable breed for the use I have for it and am suited too. but I don;t to be limited to that. If I moved to a different area with a different hunting style and terrain I would happily keep a breed most suited to that. If I won the powerball last (Haven;t checked) thenh I will have a kennel with everything in it by next Tuesday  :Have A Nice Day:

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## EeeBees

> What is it that you want someone to say of a dog they have never seen


Which is the point i am trying to make about you comment that my dog is simply 'reasonable'... :Grin:  :Grin: 

I hope one day we can sit down with a latte and discuss this...I dont know about you, but I am just glad that we gundog people have the privilege if you like to own, work and cherish our chosen breeds, to have the opportunity to hunt  them as they were intended to do and to compete against each other if that is our wish.

Regarding fur and feather, I agree with you Wirehunt.   The Epagneul Breton is colloquilly (dang) referred to as the Poachers Dog...he was created by peasants for peasants, thankfully some influential people embraced the little one and helped make him what he has been, become...his role was to augment the table of the peasant (and the peasant needed a little dog that was high voltage and low upkeep)...which meant fur and feather, poached or not. I think to take the fur out of his equation is wrong.

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## el borracho

I think that is a very sensible and honest assessment of why different dogs are kept over others .Living in the city generally means owning one or two animals and traveling to any area of choice and you know Jaffas wouldn't be seen dead in a anything less than a Ferrari  :Thumbsup:

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## Wirehunt

Yes well, that city thing has it's own issues when it comes to dogs el b, there is some rather heated discussions around here with council types.  Luckily I don't live at home much so can register out of area, all very dodgy but who can afford to rego a pack at $80+ each dog.  Well that and there is some shit about a three dog limit or some crap.........

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## el borracho

reg here i think is over 100 bucks. reg under your parents if retired its less

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## Wirehunt

Reg them out of this district as working dogs which they are and it's $5 a mutt.   There was even a rather heated discussion with said council type if they were working dogs.  The fucking idiot.

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## GSP

Mix of working and show lines in both these dogs.  In the Versatiles you can get beautiful dogs and good working gundogs.  It is easy in NZ, not many are shown.  The unregistered pet only bred are the real worry IMO.

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## Ruff

> Mix of working and show lines in both these dogs.  In the Versatiles you can get beautiful dogs and good working gundogs.  It is easy in NZ, not many are shown.  The unregistered pet only bred are the real worry IMO.


The split is certainly less marked in Versatiles than others, but it still should not be ignored. Compromise is compromise... and compromise never means better or best.

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## RCGSP

Historically the split has been minor but it is increasing in GSPs. There are some kennels out there now breeding for show only and there have been some imports from show lines.

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## Pointer

There has never been a working Vizsla import. Working being defined as European tested stock. There were two littermates out of a show sire of UK blood and a working bred bitch from a very old hungarian lines that ended up here, that was about it. Everything else has been show bred for many, many generations excepting the stuff behind the hubertus Pannonia mating and some early yank trials stuff behind the Paradox imports in the 80s. The show pundits will say, 'but our stuff still hunts', but what do they have to compare that to?

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## EeeBees

DFS Crufts 2010 Results |

This is how the show people get themselves or rather the genetics of their dogs in a twist; in fact the future of their chosen breed...this dog, after winning at Crufts went to so many bitches throughout the UK...because he won this prestigious show...to have his name on your puppies pedigrees might seem a big deal to a small brain, but what for the breed...I am not suggesting he is not a handsome dog...it is the fact that a win such as this can have so much influence on a single breed...thats the human condition for you...its pretty much nowt about the animal...
But conversely I have seen working spaniels who have shocking front legs, pigeon toed, lax pasterns, long dippy backs, loose shoulders, cow hocks etc ete...same for the labradors both in and out of the ring...boffy heads, size and height all over the place, heavy shoulders etc etc..it is not enough to laud the working ability of a breed alone...it is reaching for and maintaining work with conformation...conformation is paramount I believe to the health and long term endurance of the dog and therefore of the breed.

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## GSP

I've hunted wild birds with my hunting/show dogs since early 70's.  Some have been better than others just like any breed.

 It is sad to see the USA show lines of GSP coming in.   There are plenty of beautiful working lines to chose from that would win big in the show ring.

With Vizsla it isn't easy to get a proven working line close up now.  But there are many from show mixes that are working very well on deer, and birds.

What you don't take into account is you don't see these dogs because they don't go to field trials and they don't go to shows.

Also, every puppy needs exposure and if it sits in the back yard most of it's life or is just run at the beach or dog parks there is very little chance of it  showing what it could be, or have been, capable of as a working gundog.  They must be taken out regularly into areas where they experience game and different cover and water so that their instincts and desire get a chance to develop. Pets and show dogs seldom get this opportunity.

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## RCGSP

For the GSPs there's been working lines that have come in as well.

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## Gunzrrr

Interesting thread and I think I NOW sit on the NO side ... but it's a real dilemma for everyone. 
We all love our dogs ... sometimes more than the wife and kids!? 
We love their breeding with the hope that it will increase the chances of getting a great dog with superb skills. 
This documentary changed the way I look at our (humans) responsibility towards dogs ... do we genuinely love them? 
This is a YouTube documentary called "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" by the BBC.

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