# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  Keeping the 7mm ahead of the 30 cal?

## sneeze

Berger to introduce 7mm 195 gr EOL Hybrid Hunting Bullet - LongRangeHunting Online Magazine.

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## tui_man2

wonder how easy they will be to get?

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## 7mmsaum

They will be good if a RUM will push them at 3400fps out of a 30-34 inch tube with US869 powder.

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## tui_man2

> They will be good if a RUM will push them at 3400fps out of a 30-34 inch tube with US869 powder.


 
think you would be dreaming?

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## sneeze

> They will be good  .


Fixed it for you

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## Steve338

> Fixed it for you


lol

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## Spanners

If they can get that speed out of them - I'll build/buy a 7mm RUM - that 325 and 25 only cals I dont own under 338.. must be about time for a 7mm  :Grin:

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## tui_man2

anyone know when they will be out?

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## Wildman

> If they can get that speed out of them - I'll build/buy a 7mm RUM - that 325 and 25 only cals I dont own under 338.. must be about time for a 7mm


And a 257 Roberts :Have A Nice Day:

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## Kiwi Greg

They will be nice for the 7mm guys, F class etc if you can cope with the recoil & lack of barrel life  :OSMILEY: 

*IF* they get the BC they are looking for & they will stand up to the twist rate required without the jackets getting to thick, they will be good for hunting.

But in a Rum etc they will only be a whisker in front of a .338 300 Hybrid that will have 3-5 times the barrel life & the 300 will be miles easier to keep accurate over its life & will kill better  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Terminator

A 7mm rum should give you 3000-3100 depending on barrel length
The 7mm lapua imp 3200-3300 but dont expect the barrel to last to long.

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## The Claw

Nice... As KG said, the proof will be in the shooting though...

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## sneeze

It will be interesting but this is Berger and they've built a few hybrids now.They are already calling this a hunting bullet and giving estimated bc so my money is they will win with these.

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## andyanimal31

That would be a 7-08 for you kaftan wearers from the big smoke!


> If they can get that speed out of them - I'll build/buy a 7mm RUM - that 325 and 25 only cals I dont own under 338.. must be about time for a 7mm


Dont worry about us hillbillies downsouth but looks like another lr gong shoot coming up down our ways so you better get your work dates sorted so you can come play

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## Spanners

You better get the shoot dates sorted with my work dates dont you mean?  :Have A Nice Day:

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## andyanimal31

you know what i mean!

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## 7mmsaum

> A 7mm rum should give you 3000-3100 depending on barrel length
> The 7mm lapua imp 3200-3300 but dont expect the barrel to last to long.


I second that on the barrel life, I ran my RUM at 3471fps with the 180 Bergers in a 30 inch tube with a Gabe Zigliani suppressor and barrel life was woeful, I used a short throat and after 100 rounds of hunting and target shooting my OAL grew to keep a just touch.  200 rounds down the tube and I had to start slowing it down to 3400fps to keep accuracy, then to 3330 to keep it accurate,  then the accuracy just went.

I pushed the RUM hard as I wanted something for 1500 to 2000yrd practise.I'd say the barrel would still be alright if I had been more conservative.
All the practise confirmed one thing, a first round lethal hit on a deer past 1450yrds in a no wind situation is unlikely for me with a 7mm projectile.
A VERY stiff load in the saum pushes the 180 berger at 3000fps, I dont know what it would push the 195 at. 
As a hunting projectile im not sure if the 195 would be an improvement over the A-max in a saum.
Hard to knock the 162 a-max off its perch for a hunting projectile when comparing like with like at saum speeds.

And KiwiGreg has 5 very valid points here....
"IF they get the BC they are looking for & they will stand up to the twist rate required without the jackets getting to thick, they will be good for hunting.

But in a Rum etc they will only be a whisker in front of a .338 300 Hybrid that will have 3-5 times the barrel life & the 300 will be miles easier to keep accurate over its life & will kill better" 

Very hard to stay with the 7mm when shooting out past 1000-1500yrds........

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## tui_man2

> I second that on the barrel life, I ran my RUM at 3471fps with the 180 Bergers in a 30 inch tube with a Gabe Zigliani suppressor and barrel life was woeful, I used a short throat and after 100 rounds of hunting and target shooting my OAL grew to keep a just touch.  200 rounds down the tube and I had to start slowing it down to 3400fps to keep accuracy, then to 3330 to keep it accurate,  then the accuracy just went.
> 
> I pushed the RUM hard as I wanted something for 1500 to 2000yrd practise.I'd say the barrel would still be alright if I had been more conservative.
> All the practise confirmed one thing, a first round lethal hit on a deer past 1450yrds in a no wind situation is unlikely for me with a 7mm projectile.
> A VERY stiff load in the saum pushes the 180 berger at 3000fps, I dont know what it would push the 195 at. 
> As a hunting projectile im not sure if the 195 would be an improvement over the A-max in a saum.
> Hard to knock the 162 a-max off its perch for a hunting projectile when comparing like with like at saum speeds.
> 
> And KiwiGreg has 5 very valid points here....
> ...


that seams stupidly hot? for that speed?

what do you run in the rum now?

anyone know when they are coming out? tho i still use the a-max over the 168 an 180 bergers now anyway but mite be worth a try

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## 7mmsaum

> that seams stupidly hot? for that speed?
> 
> what do you run in the rum now?
> 
> anyone know when they are coming out? tho i still use the a-max over the 168 an 180 bergers now anyway but mite be worth a try


I just necked the RUM up to 338 and put a 300g Gen 2 Hybrid in it. Same velocity as Burtonators one.  Far better killing power.

Steve tried to talk sense into me years ago about the Edge but I wouldnt listen, and I should have.

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## Wildman

To think the Yanks never liked 7mm that much, just look at them now. Seems silly not to go to 338 really.

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## sneeze

Yes of course ,what was I thinking.No one wants to use a medium capacity 7mm and shoot less than a mile.
Im glad some of you buggers dont work as bullet designers, they only option we would have is a 300gr 338. :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:  :Grin:

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## Terminator

The big question of terminal performance and useful case size will be limited by the jacket thickness that berger ends up having to use to get them working well in a 1-8 twist only time will tell. But I would say this will probably limit the case size that they will be useful in to the bigger 7mms. The big 7mms should do well but like any extreme over bore case barrel life and keeping them turned through out there short barrel life have to be considered. Where I can really see them doing well is target shooting in windy conditions where they will be hard to beat. 
Would I choose the 195gr and a big 7mm probably not the 162 Amax at 3000-3100fps dose all I would need up to 650 yards very well so would a 195gr beat a 300gr berger for the longer stuff ? I know recoil has been a worry for some with the 338s in the past but new muzzle brakes now available here in NZ I'm sure will change this in the future.

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## Greg Duley

Andrew, you cannot get 3471 fps with a 180gn Berger out of 30 inch barrels RUM without out blowing cases. Either your chronograph is inaccurate, or you're talking BS. The Nosler RUM brass you were using won't take anymore than 65,000 psi without popping primers. A 30" RUM at just under primer popping pressure will push a 180gn at 3400fps max. We built your rifle, and many like it, and have strain gauges on enough of them to know exactly what they will do. Do not try and reach Andrew's claimed velocity or you will end up with molten brass in your eye at the very least!
Also, the only 180gn Berger that will stand 3400fps with accuracy is the Hybrid. Don't waist your time with the VLD's.
As Kiwi Greg and Don say, it depends on what you're trying to achieve. If you want the absolute best long range performance in the wind, with minimal recoil, in the lightest possible walkabout hunting rifle, then this new bullet with a projected .400 plus G7 BC may well be superb in our biggest fast twist 7mm's. The barrel life will be reasonably short in the likes of our 7mmSF or Kirby's 7mm AM, but as a specialist long range lightweight hunting rifle, who cares! If you can handle more rifle weight and recoil, then the biggest 338's will beat it in barrel life and killing performance for sure, but it will need to be a big, long barreled 338 to beat it ballistically for drop and windage. At the very least a 338/416 imp like our 338 Thor, or a 338 Cheytac imp like our 338 Lunatic. An Edge, Lapua, or Lapua AI won't touch it. The 375 Cheytac imp, if the new bullets/twists all work out, certainly will beat it *and* the big 338's.  But in a lightweight hunting rifle, I shot and killed a lot of deer with the 7mm 200gn Wildcat bullet (until Richard sold the business), and know exactly what a really big 7mm can do!  Bring it on!
 :Have A Nice Day:  :Have A Nice Day:  :Have A Nice Day:  
Greg

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## Terminator

> Andrew, you cannot get 3471 fps with a 180gn Berger out of 30 inch barrels RUM without out blowing cases. Either your chronograph is inaccurate, or you're talking BS. The Nosler RUM brass you were using won't take anymore than 65,000 psi without popping primers. A 30" RUM at just under primer popping pressure will push a 180gn at 3400fps max. We built your rifle, and many like it, and have strain gauges on enough of them to know exactly what they will do. Do not try and reach Andrew's claimed velocity or you will end up with molten brass in your eye at the very least!
> Also, the only 180gn Berger that will stand 3400fps with accuracy is the Hybrid. Don't waist your time with the VLD's.
> As Kiwi Greg and Don say, it depends on what you're trying to achieve. If you want the absolute best long range performance in the wind, with minimal recoil, in the lightest possible walkabout hunting rifle, then this new bullet with a projected .400 plus G7 BC may well be superb in our biggest fast twist 7mm's. The barrel life will be reasonably short in the likes of our 7mmSF or Kirby's 7mm AM, but as a specialist long range lightweight hunting rifle, who cares! If you can handle more rifle weight and recoil, then the biggest 338's will beat it in barrel life and killing performance for sure, but it will need to be a big, long barreled 338 to beat it ballistically for drop and windage. At the very least a 338/416 imp like our 338 Thor, or a 338 Cheytac imp like our 338 Lunatic. An Edge, Lapua, or Lapua AI won't touch it. The 375 Cheytac imp, if the new bullets/twists all work out, certainly will beat it *and* the big 338's.  But in a lightweight hunting rifle, I shot and killed a lot of deer with the 7mm 200gn Wildcat bullet (until Richard sold the business), and know exactly what a really big 7mm can do!  Bring it on!
>  
> Greg



The trouble with any extreme over bore case like the very big 7mms when you talk about barrel life isn't just that its short its that they are sometimes very hard to keep tuned with the best BC bullet on offer for the entire short life of the barrel. Often you have to go to another lower BC bullet to keep it shooting after just *half* of the short barrel life, yes the barrel is still shooting but the best BC bullet can no longer be used so greatly changing the great ballistics it once had. Kerby had this happen to his 7mm Allen mag having to change from the 200gr wildcat to the 160gr AB, I am in no way saying that the Berger 195gr want be a great bullet but you may have trouble keeping it shooting in the big 7mms, now the target guys who don't need to push it hard to get expansion at long range will be very interested in this bullet in a medium case as a great windy day bullet.

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## Greg Duley

Don,
That may have been the case with the thin jacketed VLD's in some barrels, but it depends more on how hard pressure and velocity wise you are driving them. I have had the old thin moly coated 180 VLD's shoot in a Kreiger barrel for well over 1000 rounds before it started to destroy them. This was at 64,000 psi and 3200 fps. Kirby ran a lot of rounds through that barrel doing testing for his customers, at some pretty serious pressures and velocities. You can get away with this due to the high quality brass they're based on. Someone else on this forum has a habit of doing the same thing occasionally, eh Kiwi Greg? :Wink: 

I have run many more rounds through one of our 7mm SF's than Kirby has through his own personal 7mmAM you're talking about, without any deterioration in accuracy, but we run the Lapua brass at 65,000psi, not the 70,000 plus some others run.
 Anyway, this certainly isn't the case with the Hybrids and other similar ogive and jacket thickness bullets. That's the advantage of them, they are very throat tolerant. If used as a lightweight hunting rifle/load combination, the barrel life even with the biggest 7mm's or any other overbore cartridge will last for years. If you want to bust lots of rounds at gongs etc, then don't pick a big 7mm or any other largest case in any calibre, whether it be 22 cal on up. Build a 338 Edge and bang away to your hearts content, but do realise there are other cartridges that are better in the wind if a high round count is not important to you.  
Horses for courses!
Greg

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## Terminator

The 195gr will be a hunting bullet so should have a hunting jacket? not like the 180gr target hybrid with a thick jacket that even you admit will only expand up to a modest distance.

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## Greg Duley

Don,
The 180gn 7mm and 300gn 338 Hybrid's I have lots of experience with expand just fine out to 1000 yards no problem. Not sure what you mean by modest distances? They are no different to SMK's, in fact expand better in my opinion. We have no issues with them terminally at all, and their superior ballistics makes them go to's for us. Sure, 180gn and 300gn A-Max's would be even better, but that's not likely any time soon by the sound of it. In the small and medium 7mm's out to 800 yards the 162gn A-Max is superb, but it ain't as good in the wind as the Hybrid, and that's a fact. I'll take hitting them in the right place first over a small terminal advantage any time! Do you think the CE's you've got for your 375 build are going to expand any better? Not in my experience they won't. I can show your footage of a Bull tahr hit smack in the middle of the shoulder with the 252gn CE doing 3550fps at 600 yards that takes off like he wasn't even hit. But we found him 100 yards away dead, hit exactly right in a very strong wind. There's no such thing as the perfect bullet yet, but they're working on it. When Smitty from CE puts his new alloy tips into his long range bullets, then we'll be almost there I reckon!
Anyway, the Red stag Willie shot at 720 yards on Monday night while we were in a "big country" headwater with a 180gn Hybrid out of the 7mm Fatmax just rolled over dead. Point of the shoulder, DOA!! :Grin: 
Greg

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## Terminator

Firstly I haven't had alot of experience with the 180gr hybrid but was quoting you from another post saying you had shot alot of them and they only expanded okay up to 850 yards in your big 7mms? and we all know that the 7mm SMKs don't always expand well at long range ie 1000 yards. Now the cutting edge is in testing so I have no experience with it yet but quoting one long range shot dosen't mean anything I've seen plenty of deer run of hit well with the old thin jacket 180gr VLD then full dead at long range, a 400grs 375gr will have alot more energy than a 252gr to start of with before you add in the bullet expanding anyway, also being very long 2.2100 inches long tumble may also help? Now back to what we were talking about will a hunting jacket 195gr stay tuned in a 7mm SF when the throat starts to look like a gravel pit???

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## Greg Duley

Don,
I expect the 195's will stay tuned as good as any other of the new Bergers etc. I presume they'll be better at this than the old VLD's, but we'll have to wait and see won't we!
Greg

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## Kiwi Greg

> Don,
> I expect the 195's will stay tuned as good as any other of the new Bergers etc. I presume they'll be better at this than the old VLD's, but we'll have to wait and see won't we!
> Greg


I expect it will be sometime before we see them, especially on this side of the world  

By then they may well be obsolete except possibly for a niche market to the LR F class boys & shooters with blinkers on that are extremely reluctant to embrace change. 

I say this because of improved muzzle brake designs that make even the biggest 338s etc far more manageable in light weight hunting rifles.

Also the 375 has taken over the higher ground in the LR performance stakes making even the biggest 338 look fairly average.

The bigger bore size means a quantum leap forward in barrel life, especially when coupled with much less powder burnt to achieve better ballistics.

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## Greg Duley

KG,
We'll see some as soon as they are off the presses. She's a global market place these days! We had 300gn Gen II's before most of the yanks had them. You will still be able to build a shootable lighter weight 7mm shooting 195's than a 338 shooting 300's, now matter how good the brake. The angled port etc brake recoil reduction applies to both 7mm and 338 etc. I agree the 338's will be easier, but there'll still be a place for the 195's in some situations, if they work out.
And you're right, the 375's should be the new king for big guns and will have better barrel life. But as usual we are waiting - for bullets, barrels, more testing etc...and in the meantime the proven 338's are still flattening deer and smacking gongs!
 :Grin: 
Greg

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## Kiwi Greg

> KG,
> We'll see some as soon as they are off the presses. She's a global market place these days! We had 300gn Gen II's before most of the yanks had them. You will still be able to build a shootable lighter weight 7mm shooting 195's than a 338 shooting 300's, now matter how good the brake. The angled port etc brake recoil reduction applies to both 7mm and 338 etc. I agree the 338's will be easier, but there'll still be a place for the 195's in some situations, if they work out.
> And you're right, the 375's should be the new king for big guns and will have better barrel life. But as usual we are waiting - for bullets, barrels, more testing etc...and in the meantime the proven 338's are still flattening deer and smacking gongs!
> 
> Greg


Some of us are already shooting the 375s Greg, with great results so far, admitably not on animals yet but that won't be far away.

Already better ballistics than the 338 Cheytac improved, with less powder  :Cool: 

Yes the great brakes make a big difference to any calibre.

If my 12 year old daughter can shoot my 338 imp easily then the 7mm Rum I have at the moment would be a non issue now it has a decent brake on it.

The rearward ported brake makes a big difference compared to convential ported brake any radial brake especially in the bigger calibres.


*I have been told to be carefull with my brake design as many people are concerned that it will be blatantly plagerised, like another popular kiwi made brake recently*  :Wtfsmilie:

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## Greg Duley

KG,
Looking forward to the results! And it would also be good to have some more readily available quality bullets.
Bring it on!
Greg

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## Greg Duley

KG, sorry missed the bit about brakes at the bottom of your post. What popular NZ brake has been plagiarized? All I've seen are based on various US designs of one sort or another. If you've got something truly new maybe you better try and patent it. Don't know if that's an easy process. We've never bothered with any of our stuff, and always give credit to anyone we borrow, modify ideas off. There's very little truly new around these days, certainly in the way of brakes anyway.
Greg

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## Kiwi Greg

Greg.
Thats true that not much is truely new & unique.
I chose the best imported brake I could find as my base line & modified to make it even more efficent.
I see that you have gone a similar route with a number of the products you sell.
I did that because I couldn't find a brake here that was what I was looking for as far as recoil reduction, call me soft if you like, but my Edge with an APS PK on it was beating me up.
Also it is getting harder & harder to get firearms parts out of the States through the front door, with most manufacturers not willing to export directly.

Most people in the industry are well aware of the recent radial brake debarcle & I'm sure you are well aware of it as well, news travels very fast in this little country & indeed internationally as well.

As far as the patent thing goes it is to hard to do & not worth persuing unless you are prepared to go to court against the person/company that stole/borrowed your design.

I feel that as I used an idea from another country & modified to suit my needs, that it isn't as bad as say, directly copying a brake from a local manufacturer, that also had previously supplied the product to me.

I know I would be very disappointed if some one copied my brakes but as they will hopefully be fairly cheap, the cost of tooling up for them would hardly be worth it.

I found from my extensive testing that even a seemly insignificant change can result in a major change in performance usually detrimentally.

Even if I sell very few, which seems quite unlikely given the amount of positive feed back I'm recieving, I feel I have achieved my initial goal to produce a brake that will tame the large amount of recoil associated with high speed & BC, heavy weight, LR projectiles in light weight rifles.

Any how what I do know is a great brake will be required for rifles/calibres capable of fully utilising the benefits new 195 when it finally gets here  :Grin:

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## Greg Duley

KG,
Good luck, if you have something new that works I hope your venture goes well for you. Our angled port brakes make our Lunatics pussies to shoot, but will be interested to see what improvement you've been able to make.
I'm still none the wiser about the recent radial brake debacle you talk of, but I have been in the bush recently until yesterday. Maybe you could email me if its too sensitive for a public forum?
Greg

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## Kiwi Greg

> KG,
> Good luck, if you have something new that works I hope your venture goes well for you. Our angled port brakes make our Lunatics pussies to shoot, but will be interested to see what improvement you've been able to make.
> I'm still none the wiser about the recent radial brake debacle you talk of, but I have been in the bush recently until yesterday. Maybe you could email me if its too sensitive for a public forum?
> Greg


I have had & will have a brake at my disposal that your angled port brake is based on for testing and as I managed to significantly better a smaller one I'm sure I can get the bigger one more efficent, time will tell.

I will be concentrating on the smaller ones first.

The Radial brake thing is not my fight so I will leave it at that, I have talked to victim, he isn't a happy camper & is seriously considering his legal options.

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## Greg Duley

Ok, good luck as I said. Any experimenting that furthers shooting knowledge for everyone can only be a good thing. 
As to the brake debacle, no doubt I'll hear about it sooner or later if its as bad as you say it is.
Greg

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## Kiwi Greg

> Ok, good luck as I said. Any experimenting that furthers shooting knowledge for everyone can only be a good thing. 
> As to the brake debacle, no doubt I'll hear about it sooner or later if its as bad as you say it is.
> Greg


I just want guys to be able to shoot the bigger calibres without having to worry about recoil.

It is truely incredible to be able to accurately shoot the distances that we do now with factory/semi custom rifles, that were thought to be impossible by most, a few short years ago.

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## Terminator

*I have been told to be carefull with my brake design as many people are concerned that it will be blatantly plagerised, like another popular kiwi made brake recently*  :Wtfsmilie: [/QUOTE]


 Mr Greg Duley have you been stepping on people toes again??

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## distant stalker

> I expect it will be sometime before we see them, especially on this side of the world  
> 
> I say this because of improved muzzle brake designs that make even the biggest 338s etc far more manageable in light weight hunting rifles.
> 
> .


Shameless plug there Gregg  :Psmiley:

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## kiwijames

WOW what an awesome swordfight :Yuush:

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## Kiwi Greg

> Shameless plug there Gregg


Some of us Gregs are better than others at shameless plugs, I'm still a mere amateur in this regard  :Grin:

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## baldbob

> WOW what an awesome swordfight


Absolutely hilarious.... take note "GREGS".. :Psmiley:

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## Greg Duley

> *I have been told to be carefull with my brake design as many people are concerned that it will be blatantly plagerised, like another popular kiwi made brake recently*



 Mr Greg Duley have you been stepping on people toes again??[/QUOTE]

Donald, 
Please do enlighten us all on what you are talking about? Have you something to say? You and KG certainly like dropping hints, so don't be shy with it. Post what you're talking about in the public eye so everyone can see what you're on about, then we'll see what the truth actually is!
Greg

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## Kudu

> And a 257 Roberts


Now there is a calibre worth talking about.....................

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## Greg Duley

Surprise, surprise, nothing from Kiwi Greg and Donald (terminator).  Quite prepared to throw innuendo and school yard rumours around but not prepared to back it up when asked to or check the truth behind what theyre insinuating before having a go. 

Now that Ive been home from the bush a couple of days and caught up, heres the goss for those that have only heard one side of the story, and for those that are wondering what the hell KG is going on about.

Heres the background. We have made our own non directional brakes for at least 15 years now, as evidenced by many pics in my magazine articles etc over the years. Yes, they were basically copies of the popular at the time in the USA radial and axial ported brakes typified by the Vais type brake, as are many others radial type brakes. Then, about 3 years ago a NZ gunsmith got his local CNC outfit to start making some radial brakes, which were also basically a copy of the Vais type. We got him to make some in our thread sizes for us as it was convenient, due to the numbers we were starting to use. Then he started having problems getting his local CNC outfit to make them when we needed, so we approached a local CNC outfit here in Napier to make some back on our old design in some sizes we were short of, and we now have them making our bigger 90 degree ported directional brakes as well. We are still fitting some of his NZ made brakes, as well as our ones made locally, as well as the angled port Stainless Steel and 7000 series alloy brakes we still make ourselves. 

As all brakes are just reinventions of brake ideas that have been around for ages now, it is pretty rich for someone to claim their improved version of someone elses brake is a completely new idea, whereas others are just blatant copies. That is just laughable! Not that we copied the NZ made brakes anyway as we can clearly show ours are the same as our original ones and we were making them long before he was. As for this BS about legal avenues etcwhat a bloody joke! It would get laughed out of court! If anyone has a grievance, it would be the person who originally built the first radial and axial ported brake in the US, and I wouldnt be surprised to find that wasnt even George Vais!

No smileys this time, I have done my best to get on with you both and wish you well with your various ventures. You guys need to get a life
Greg

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## madjon_

Oh F%$# here we go again :36 1 5:

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## Kiwi Greg

> Surprise, surprise, nothing from Kiwi Greg and Donald (terminator).  Quite prepared to throw innuendo and school yard rumours around but not prepared to back it up when asked to or check the truth behind what they’re insinuating before having a go. 
> 
> Now that I’ve been home from the bush a couple of days and caught up, here’s the goss for those that have only* heard one side of the story,* and for those that are wondering what the hell KG is going on about.
> 
> Here’s the background. We have made our own non directional brakes for at least 15 years now, as evidenced by many pics in my magazine articles etc over the years. Yes, they were basically copies of the popular at the time in the USA radial and axial ported brakes typified by the Vais type brake, as are many others radial type brakes. Then, about 3 years ago a NZ gunsmith got his local CNC outfit to start making some radial brakes, which were also basically a copy of the Vais type. We got him to make some in our thread sizes for us as it was convenient, due to the numbers we were starting to use. Then he started having problems getting his local CNC outfit to make them when we needed, so we approached a local CNC outfit here in Napier to make some back on our old design in some sizes we were short of, and we now have them making our bigger 90 degree ported directional brakes as well. We are still fitting some of his NZ made brakes, as well as our ones made locally, as well as the angled port Stainless Steel and 7000 series alloy brakes we still make ourselves. 
> 
> As all brakes are just reinventions of brake ideas that have been around for ages now, it is pretty rich for someone to claim their improved version of someone else’s brake is a completely new idea, whereas others are just blatant copies. That is just laughable! Not that we copied the NZ made brakes anyway as we can clearly show ours are the same as our original ones and we were making them long before he was. As for this BS about legal avenues etc…what a bloody joke! It would get laughed out of court! If anyone has a grievance, it would be the person who originally built the first radial and axial ported brake in the US, and I wouldn’t be surprised to find that wasn’t even George Vais!
> 
> No smileys this time, *I have done my best to get on with you both and wish you well with your various ventures.* You guys need to get a life…
> Greg


Thanks Greg.

Been away shooting Sika & at rocks out to 2380 yards with the 375.

Yep there is more than 2 sides to this story & judging by the emails that have been tearing around cyberspace you know that as well.

PS I said I improved a brake from overseas, it wasn't an APS.

As I have said before this isn't my fight so I am unable to comment any further on it.

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## The Claw

> Been away shooting Sika & at rocks out to 2380 yards with the 375.


Wow, shooting rocks at 2,380 yards... or shooting at rocks at 2,380 yards?  :Psmiley: 

I once shot at a mud puddle with my 22LR that was 2km's away...  :Grin: 

Look forward to seeing this 375 in all its glory on Saturday... :Thumbsup:

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## Kiwi Greg

> Wow, shooting rocks at 2,380 yards... or shooting at rocks at 2,380 yards? 
> 
> I once shot at a mud puddle with my 22LR that was 2km's away... 
> 
> Look forward to seeing this 375 in all its glory on Saturday...


Ha Ha Ha was waiting for that  :Thumbsup: 

Thats why I said shooting at rocks.

I only shot at it 5 or 6 times, got a 3 shot group 2ish moa group, 2380 is a fair way away  :ORLY: 

Shot a 1 moa 3 shot group at 1700, 2 of those were with in 1/2 moa third one dropped out, low left.

Looking forward to tuning the bullets a bit more & maybe a little more speed, these are still supersonic beyond 3000 now  :Zomg:

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## veitnamcam

> Ha Ha Ha was waiting for that 
> 
> Thats why I said shooting at rocks.
> 
> I only shot at it 5 or 6 times, got a 3 shot group 2ish moa group, 2380 is a fair way away 
> 
> Shot a 1 moa 3 shot group at 1700, 2 of those were with in 1/2 moa third one dropped out, low left.
> 
> Looking forward to tuning the bullets a bit more & maybe a little more speed, *these are still supersonic beyond 3000 now*


Thats impressive :Thumbsup:

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## L.R

> Ha Ha Ha was waiting for that 
> 
> Thats why I said shooting at rocks.
> 
> I only shot at it 5 or 6 times, got a 3 shot group 2ish moa group, 2380 is a fair way away 
> 
> Shot a 1 moa 3 shot group at 1700, 2 of those were with in 1/2 moa third one dropped out, low left.
> 
> Looking forward to tuning the bullets a bit more & maybe a little more speed, these are still supersonic beyond 3000 now



Old thread I know, but Greg I'm curious what bullet at what velocity were you using to be supersonic at 3000?
My Lunatic is miles away from being supersonic at 3000 with 400CE's.

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## Kiwi Greg

> Old thread I know, but Greg I'm curious what bullet at what velocity were you using to be supersonic at 3000?
> My Lunatic is miles away from being supersonic at 3000 with 400CE's.


I used CEs BCs & they seemed to work out fine for me with the 375 Terminator.
Time will tell if they still work with the 375 DCM, should do as it is pushing them about 200fps faster.
I guess it comes down to how fast you can sensibly push them or how fast you want to push them.

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## L.R

How fast we're you pushing them with the terminator? Even at 1.0 G1 they need to be going very fast.

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## Kiwi Greg

That was how I worked it out with JBM at the time, not sure on the altitude I used.
I was launching them 2920-30, I have a new reamer on the water so that may change.

Have you got your 375 back yet ?

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## L.R

Yeah in my program they need to start over 3200 fps with a BC of 1.0 to reach 3000 supersonic. My full size cheytac can't get anywhere near supersonic at 3000 at NZ altitudes. That's using a 400 CE with a G7 of .453 at 3035fps.

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## Kiwi Greg

I guess it depends on the BC & speed you choose to use.
So far I have got highers speeds with the 400s & my 425s with more to come, out of our 375/408 imp-375 DCM.
It doesn't really matter how fast it goes, it matters how accurate it is because accuracy will always be King followed by BC & speed.

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## L.R

Yes being supersonic at 3000 sure does depend on the BC and speed you use. Both have to be a lot higher than we will be able to achieve at present with CE bullets and the cheytac case. Tell me what pressure are you at with the 425 exceeding 3035?

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## Kiwi Greg

> Yes being supersonic at 3000 sure does depend on the BC and speed you use. Both have to be a lot higher than we will be able to achieve at present with CE bullets and the cheytac case. Tell me what pressure are you at with the 425 exceeding 3035?


Please don't go there again with the pressure thing aye, it was thrashed out quite well here

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...62/index2.html

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## L.R

I'm not trying to say that you are over loading or anything like that. You are free to load to any pressure you feel is safe. I'm just wondering how much more pressure it takes to get a projectile that is 25 gr heavier than the one I'm shooting at a higher velocity through the same barrel and action, and I'm not positive but I'm guessing a slightly Lower capacity cartrage.

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## sakokid

you dudes have lost me as far as that hight tech gun talk goes, get a deer in my scope pull the trigger they tip over. it cant get better than that.!!!

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## Kiwi Greg

> I'm not trying to say that you are over loading or anything like that. You are free to load to any pressure you feel is safe. I'm just wondering how much more pressure it takes to get a projectile that is 25 gr heavier than the one I'm shooting at a higher velocity through the same barrel and action, and I'm not positive but I'm guessing a slightly Lower capacity cartrage.


Time will tell there will be another one going very soon so there will be three lots of data for the Cheytac parent case, with the same barrel  :Have A Nice Day: 

As to who has the biggest case capacity I don't really care  :Have A Nice Day:

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## The Claw

Lots of riddles being spoken here...:confused::rolleyes:

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

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## L.R

Your right there I don't care who has the most capacity either. All I know is that you are driving a much heavier projectile faster than me and I want to get some info on how, before I race off and build a bigger chambering that does actually beat a 338 version, because at the mo my 375 wont

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## Kiwi Greg

> Your right there I don't care who has the most capacity either. All I know is that you are driving a much heavier projectile faster than me and I want to get some info on how, before I race off and build a bigger chambering that does actually beat a 338 version, because at the mo my 375 wont


Have you fired it yet ?
Do you have dies etc to reload for it ?
The VM doesn't seem to be living up to expectations & requires a long barrel to produce any speed much over a 375-408 imp.
I have wanted to build one for years, esp after seeing a case, but what action, barrel, dies, powder etc etc etc, so I didn't.
The 375/408 is fairly expensive the VM will be worst. 
I will post up more info on the 375 DCM once I have done more testing & got it back from slack couriers.......

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