# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Warning shot for gun owners

## Baz

Interesting article courtesy of Te Awamutu Courier, seems that finally people are being held accountable for dumb actions with firearms

Waikato police hope the loss of
two mens firearms licences will
serve as a timely reminder to other
shooters to use firearms responsibly.
District firearms officer Richard
Plas said two 28-year-old men from
Cambridge and Te Awamutu
recently appeared in Hamilton District
Court on firearms-related
charges.
The charges relate to an incident
in November last year where
the pair were caught spotlighting by
a Department of Conservation
ranger in the vicinity of a campsite
in the Pureora Forest Park.
Fortunately, the ranger happened
to be camping on site and was
quickly able to stop them before any
shots were fired, preventing any
tragedy from occurring.
Mr Plas said it was unfortunate
that the pair ignored the lessons
learned in light of an occurrence in
the Kaimanawa Forest Park where
a woman, who was staying in a
Department of Conservation
campsite, was shot by a hunting
party spotlighting for deer.
Both men were found guilty and
had their firearms licences revoked.
We hope that these revocations
serve as a timely reminder to other
shooters that the licensed ownership
of firearms is a privilege, not a
right and as such, there are some
serious responsibilities shooters
need to adhere to.
Mr Plas said it is illegal for
hunters to hunt on Department of
Conservation land during the hours
of darkness, and campsites are well
sign-posted so there is no excuse for
this kind of activity.

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## Dougie

Good work.

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## Rushy

II support the actions of the ranger and the district court judge on this. We share public lands with others that are not in the hunting fraternity and we need to respect their right to have a safe experience while there.

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## ebf

> seems that finally people are being held accountable for dumb actions with firearms


Good news

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## hunter308

When will people learn that is it illegal to spotlight on public land some people think that they can get a firearms license and then do whatever the hell they please. They should have gone looking for farms to spotlight after getting permission from the farm owners but clearly some people are too lazy to do that and prefer to hunt under cover of darkness and put everyone else in danger.

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## ebf

h308, i suspect that if these guys are willing to spotlight illegally on public land, they would be just as willing to poach or spotlight illegally on private land...

let's hope that their next step is not the typical "driving while disqualified" approach, but maybe illegal possession of firearm carries a slightly more severe penalty.

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## Ryan

I'm in favour of this too.

Firearm ownership is a privilege and they should be used responsibly.

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## Wirehunt

This privilege thing is an interesting approach.

For some a privilege maybe, but for others a way of life.

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## Ryan

> This privilege thing is an interesting approach.


From a legal approach, is what I meant.

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## Rushy

> This privilege thing is an interesting approach.
> 
> For some a privilege maybe, but for others a way of life.


Agree wirehunt but in this country never a right.

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## Ryan

> Agree wirehunt but in this country never a right.


And I think that the USA is the only country in the world where firearm ownership is a right.

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## Pointer

> Agree wirehunt but in this country never a right.


Bloody oath Rushy and we would all do well to remember that

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## veitnamcam

It is the *RIGHT* of every* FIT AND PROPER* Kiwi to hold and use firearms within the law.

Spotlighting public camping grounds probably rules out the fit and proper bit :Brains...!:  :15 8 212:

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## Ryan

> It is the *RIGHT* of every* FIT AND PROPER* Kiwi to hold and use firearms within the law.


Unfortunately nowhere in the Bill of Rights Act 1990 does it say that a New Zealander has a right to own a firearm.

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## MassiveAttack

> Agree wirehunt but in this country never a right.


It was an implicit right before it became a privilege.  The right to self defense is fundamental to all other rights.  The right to self defense means nothing if you don't have the appropriate tools.

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## ebf

VC, could you point me at the specific piece of NZ legislation defines that right pls ?

MassiveAttack - Self defense is possible without firearms. In fact I suspect that is you list self defense as a motivation for a NZ FAL, you will not get granted a license...

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## veitnamcam

> VC, could you point me at the specific piece of NZ legislation defines that right pls ?
> 
> MassiveAttack - Self defense is possible without firearms. In fact I suspect that is you list self defense as a motivation for a NZ FAL, you will not get granted a license...


Im not up on legals ebf, Im from the school of common sense.

If a NZ citizen is legally deemed "fit and proper" what piece of legislation denies the right to hold/use legally arms ebf?

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## ebf

Hehe, common sense and the law are not necessarily good bedfellows  :Have A Nice Day: 

I'm talking about the constitutional law difference between a right and a privilege.

Rights are normally explicitly defined, like in the USA - the right to keep and bear arms in the 2nd amendment

My understanding is that NZ does not have an explicit written constitution, the bill of rights (as de la Rey pointed out) does not contain anything about firearm ownership rights, and the arms code specifically states that firearm ownership is a privilege, not a right.

Happy to be corrected or educated otherwise... And if there are any lawyers on here, feel free to chip in.

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## veitnamcam

Im not a lawyer but Im pretty sure if you are a "fit and proper person" it is your right.
If not we should all storm parliament which would make us all unfit and not proper :Grin:

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## distant stalker

in .nz law you are meant to attempt to leave the scene rather than retaliate. self defense with a firearm isn't a wise way.of thinking. that and the fact if it's locked away properly you won't be able to get at it in time. my hands and brain have done all I've needed in the past and you don't need to find the keys to get them.out

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## Pointer

It's not a right whatsoever, we all have all been assessed for our worthiness to hold a FAL. The moment you play up, that privilige is taken from you. 

The moment we all stuff up, the privilege is taken from all of us

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## veitnamcam

> in .nz law you are meant to attempt to leave the scene rather than retaliate. self defense with a firearm isn't a wise way.of thinking. that and the fact if it's locked away properly you won't be able to get at it in time. my hands and brain have done all I've needed in the past and you don't need to find the keys to get them.out


Just to clarify I am NOT talking about self defence...I am talking about a fit and proper person being able to own and use firearms.

And Iv always thought the class system to be a crock of shit.  Im fit and proper to own/store and use something capable of killing @ 2km+ but on the same license Im not fit and proper to own/store/use a 22lr pistol.

Either your fit and proper or not right?

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## Toby

I agree VC

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## Ryan

> It is the *RIGHT* of every* FIT AND PROPER* Kiwi to hold and use firearms within the law.





> Just to clarify I am NOT talking about self defence...*I am talking about a fit and proper person being able to own and use firearms*.
> 
> And Iv always thought the class system to be a crock of shit.  Im fit and proper to own/store and use something capable of killing @ 2km+ but on the same license Im not fit and proper to own/store/use a 22lr pistol.
> 
> Either your fit and proper or not right?


Which is it? A right to firearm ownership or being "fit and proper"? They are two quite distinct and unrelated topics. 




> If a NZ citizen is legally deemed "fit and proper" what piece of legislation denies the right to hold/use legally arms ebf?


There is no legislation denying them the "right". To put the whole rights thing into context, let's look at the USA where the right to bear arms is enshrined in their constitution (the 2nd amendment).

This effectively means that as soon as someone is born and has legal status as a living human being that, along with the right to an education, freedom of speech and so so, they also have the right to own a firearm. As long as they don't fall foul of the law at any stage, they are entitled to own a firearm simply because it is their legal right to do so.

There is no such law in New Zealand where citizens are automatically entitled to own a firearm and they to need to prove that they are a "fit and proper" person before being issued a licence. If you like, have a look at this website - particularly the section entitled "Gun Regulation" and specifically the sub-section "Right to possess firearms".

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/new-zealand

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## Dead is better

> It is the *RIGHT* of every* FIT AND PROPER* Kiwi to hold and use firearms within the law.
> 
> Spotlighting public camping grounds probably rules out the fit and proper bit


Yeah i get you mean that it IS in the law. On the moral level though i know of so many who aren't fit to hold a crayon let alone a rifle. I respect those who are proficient, safe and considerate with their firearm ownership/usage. Since nobody is inherently born with these traits i don't regard ownership as a 'right'. It's a commitment IMO

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## veitnamcam

As far as im aware US citizens must have a permit
If you are fit and proper it is your right.
Just like a drivers license........At least that has an eye test. and a practical.and a probation period.

So you are saying that in America it is a 3 year olds constitutional right to own and use unsupervised a machine gun?

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## Ryan

> As far as im aware US citizens must have a permit
> If you are fit and proper it is your right.
> Just like a drivers license........At least that has an eye test. and a practical.and a probation period.
> 
> So you are saying that in America it is a 3 year olds constitutional right to own and use unsupervised a machine gun?


I think I've summed up what I'm saying pretty well already. Rights are a legal guarantee. There is a legal guarantee that one can own a firearm in the USA. There is no such legal guarantee in NZ or I'd wager anywhere else in the world for that matter.

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## veitnamcam

> Yeah i get you mean that it IS in the law. On the moral level though i know of so many who aren't fit to hold a crayon let alone a rifle. I respect those who are proficient, safe and considerate with their firearm ownership/usage. *Since nobody is inherently born with these traits* i don't regard ownership as a 'right'. It's a commitment IMO


Good post

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## ebf

> As far as im aware US citizens must have a permit


Nope, maybe you are thinking about concealed cary permit for handguns ?




> So you are saying that in America it is a 3 year olds constitutional right to own and use unsupervised a machine gun?


No they don't, there is a lower age limit for ownership. Determined by state legislation, so in Texas a 3 year old may well have that right  :Grin:

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## veitnamcam

> This effectively means that as soon as someone is born and has legal status as a living human being that, along with the right to an education, freedom of speech and so so, they also have the right to own a firearm. *As long as they don't fall foul of the law* at any stage, they are entitled to own a firearm simply because it is their legal right to do so.


The difference in NZ being you have to apply for a licence once 16 or over.

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## 7mmwsm

I take issue with people telling me that while I am considered a fit and proper person and I am obeying the laws of this country, that it is a privalige to own a firearm, drive a car etc.
If I were to rape a kid or bash an old lady those same people would put me in jail and tell me that I now have rights. Our system is arse about face.
As for the self defence issue, I have been led to believe that you may use what ever force you deem neccessary, but you may be judged on that decision.
Also, it is not illegal to use a spotlight on public property. The possesion of a firearm while using a spotlight is a different story.

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## SiB

> I take issue with people telling me that while I am considered a fit and proper person and I am obeying the laws of this country, that it is a privalige to own a firearm, drive a car etc.
> If I were to rape a kid or bash an old lady those same people would put me in jail and tell me that I now have rights. Our system is arse about face.
> As for the self defence issue, I have been led to believe that you may use what ever force you deem neccessary, but you may be judged on that decision.
> Also, it is not illegal to use a spotlight on public property. The possesion of a firearm while using a spotlight is a different story.


The line between defence and assault is grey. Essentially, you first have to prove that you believed the assailant had the "present means and ability" to assault you. (eg a 54kg woman threatening to thump me  - I'm 116kg - doesn't justify me bashing her in to 'defend' myself). Secondly there's the "subjective and objective test".

The subjective test is what you did on the occasion, based on the facts as you believed them to be at the time.
The objective test is what the Court considers; both what you knew at the time, and all the other facts and relevant case law that can be considered and debated at ease after the event. In other words, 'self defence' may pass your subjective test, but the Court, when applying the objective test may well find otherwise.

The reality is that possession of a 'ready' weapon for self-defense purposes can create an argument for pre-mediation - ie assault. 

Example: If I keep a loaded shotgun at my (urban) back door, it's hard to argue it was there ready for ducks..... (there is case law both ways on this). However, if I happen to have left a pruning saw in same location (and I have some shrubs in my garden), it's easier to argue I had left it there in anticipation of doing some pruning. 

A key point there of course is that many householders particularly fail to understand that the weapon will be taken (or attempted) off them by the alleged assailant. Pokers, softball bats and the like are just too easy to hold onto and use against yourself. Pruning saws are vicious, and work with the body's natural reaction to pull back when grabbed.

Get my drift?

Frankly I agree with the views of many forum members who hold a FAL: you will use all reasonable means to protect life and limb of your family and self. I will too. We just have to be intelligent about it.

A simple test is "what is the worst that could happen to me?". If you're more worried about trouble with the Police or Courts afterwards, then possibly the primary remedy you're considering might be excessive. Equally, if it's life-and-limb stuff, the 'reasonable' argument may stack up.

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## Beavis

As far as gun ownership goes, I think you have a "right" to apply for a FAL and that is about it - this was recently clarified in a court case. Other than that, I think you have a right to do or own what ever you please, as long as it is not expressly forbidden by the law of the land. You have a right to self defense, but it boils down to whether the courts and your peers deem it to be self defense. I have no idea what police policy is on the matter - it appears to be to charge anybody who uses force against another, then it is up to you to prove it was reasonable.

A shit system, but that's what we collectively choose to live in.

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## Ryan

To lighten the mood somewhat, here is George Carlin's take on "rights" and "privileges".  The actual rights part is about 3:50 into the video. It is well worth watching, trust me  :Have A Nice Day:

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## eddie gunks

> As far as im aware US citizens must have a permit
> If you are fit and proper it is your right.
> Just like a drivers license........At least that has an eye test. and a practical.and a probation period.
> 
> So you are saying that in America it is a 3 year olds constitutional right to own and use unsupervised a machine gun?


in most all USA states (i believe every state but lemme cover my arse) you can legally own a long gun with no permit......PROVIDED you have not had the right taken away from you, ie if you are a convicted felon you can not own firearms.....or vote for that matter!)

now,  some states and some cities have created a permite system for firearms......i live behind enemy lines in one such state......in NY you need a permit to own and carry a handgun.  in NYC you need apermit to own a long rifle....it is almost impossible to get a handgun permit for NYC.  my state  handgun permit is NOT valid in NYC!  sound stupid/crazy but it is not worth the felony charge it brings....so i basically am unable to protect myself in NYC....even most knives are outlawed there!  as a result the criminals fear no one (and we have all seen that the NYC police can not handle ther weapons so the crimnals do not fear teh police either)

sorry,  rant over.

there are some other states that require handgun licenses.  and then other state do NOT require any handgun licenses at all.  some states that do not require a permit  to open carry but you need  a permit to concealed carry.

i hope this helps.  

i am glad that the kiwis are allowed to own firearms.  (can you all own pistols?)

eddie

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## Rushy

Eddie, I am not a pistol owner but my understanding that there are restrictions around a firearms license for pistols in that you need to be a member of a pistol club and only use it at the club.  If I am wrong then someone will correct me.

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## ebf

Eddie, here's some background info for you

Gun politics in New Zealand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Self defense is not seen as a valid motivation for firearm ownership in NZ. Concealed carry of handguns is illegal, in fact the street cops don't carry firearms on their person. Locked in the trunk of their car, as well as some specially trained armed offender squads. The police here actually learn to deal with people, and I am constantly amazed by their level-headed approach to abuse and their ability to defuse potentially violent situations.

Pistols are allowed on a individual endorsement, and require specific storage, transport etc. A valid reason for handgun ownership for instance would be IPSC or Olympic type target shooting.

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## HeinB

> i am glad that the kiwis are allowed to own firearms.  (can you all own pistols?)
> 
> eddie


Very easy for a 'fit and proper' person here to own rifles and shotguns, even buying semi-auto ARs and AKs is no problem at the moment (if you can afford it!), but hand-guns are almost impossible for the average person to get hold of. They are seen and treated as a totally different class of weapon, I don't think my local gun-store even holds any hand guns,  they might be locked away in a separate room ?

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## HeinB

I should also add that I think our extremely low rate of gun-crime combined with relatively high rate of gun ownership is a pretty good endorsement on our own system, the combination of vetting and licensing the person rather than the gun and ensuring everyone has appropriate storage before being allowed a license surely seems to work well.

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## Tyke

FYI

Anyone eligable as per the relevant Act can apply for a FAL.  If they meet all the requirements and pass legislative tests then the Act states "a FAL shall be issued". So it is a right of sorts but only within certain defined parameters. And of course the FAL licence can be taken away and so in many ways I view it more as a priviledge and of course a great responsibility.

As for the self defence issue I dont think that should be used as a blanket reason for everyone to have a gun under the bed....

I would hate to think in any society firearm ownership was an automatic, unsupervised and unquantified right, met too many dickheads with one !.

(Sctn 24 Arms Act)

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## SiB

> Eddie, here's some background info for you
> 
> Gun politics in New Zealand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Self defense is not seen as a valid motivation for firearm ownership in NZ. Concealed carry of handguns is illegal, in fact the street cops don't carry firearms on their person. Locked in the trunk of their car, as well as some specially trained armed offender squads. The police here actually learn to deal with people, and I am constantly amazed by their level-headed approach to abuse and their ability to defuse potentially violent situations.
> 
> Pistols are allowed on a individual endorsement, and require specific storage, transport etc. A valid reason for handgun ownership for instance would be IPSC or Olympic type target shooting.


I agree ebf - the skill-set - as well as common-sense approach used by our boys (and girls) in blue is beyond question - they do a brilliant job in potentially life-threatening situations. It is a lesson we all need to remember; is there a non-violent alternative strategy that might de-escalate that situation?

I'm a responsible gun owner - and accept that with my priviledges, there are reponsibilities. The sad reality today is certainly one where we cannot even make flippant remarks about using firearms in less-than-responsible situations. 

Forum members may well bear to remember that trial-by-media can have far more devastating consequences than even trial-by-court; our words here are public record. let them be seen to be those of wise, considered and responsible gun-owners.

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## john m

Most gun shops will carry handguns in NZ but they aren't on show.Two classes of licence can own handguns B = can be used at a pistol club and C = owned but never used [collected]Neither licence endorsement is that easy to obtain any more.

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## Shaneo

awesome reading, its a shame that in-proper and unfit people can fake it till they make it when applying for a FAL..... coz at the end of the day its that unfit person who shines through, as shown in this case with the two spotlighters

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## krewzr

> I'm in favour of this too.
> 
> Firearm ownership is a privilege and they should be used responsibly.


Can you give me some advice Ryan? how to you determine that firearm ownership is a privilege? 

Cheers
R

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## kotuku

well its bloody good to see a judge use the commonsense approach.LIke DIU -the m ajority of us licensed persons know when ere told 'dont do it ,we are waitingfor you" we dont.
    whats more gutchurning is this is almost the identical setting to the now infamous tragedy,yet people still want to "do it"

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## scottrods

Can I ask a dumb question?

Lets say I'm on public land hunting until last light. On the walk back to hut/tent/bivvy I'm walking with a head torch on, rifle is still loaded in the magazine - am I technically spotlighting or not? Would hate to get rangered for this even though I'm not hunting.

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## Rushy

That is a good question Scottrods.  I think it would likely come down to the individual rangers interpretation.  To me you are not spot lighting

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## ebf

> Can I ask a dumb question?
> 
> Lets say I'm on public land hunting until last light. On the walk back to hut/tent/bivvy I'm walking with a head torch on, rifle is still loaded in the magazine - am I technically spotlighting or not? Would hate to get rangered for this even though I'm not hunting.


Well are you hunting or not ? If you are not hunting, why don't you just unload the magazine... Seems to me that would be the simple way to avoid any confusion.

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## Eion

I don't think you'd get pinged for that one but is it something worth risking? I'm sure if you wanna be on the safe side, mag out, debomb and remove the bolt.

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## krewzr

There was an assertion made on this thread that firearms ownership in New Zealand is a privilege; not a right. Just wondering if anyone can tell me where that came from?

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## Toby

If it was a right wouldn't you be able to do something if they refused to give you a firearms licence?

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## veitnamcam

Its the right of every fit and proper person.
If your not fit and proper you don't have the right. :Have A Nice Day: 

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## krewzr

> Its the right of every fit and proper person.
> If your not fit and proper you don't have the right.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


So you think it is a right but it only applies to a fit and proper person? Is that some sort of legal restriction ?

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## krewzr

> If it was a right wouldn't you be able to do something if they refused to give you a firearms licence?


Who is "they" ? Do you mean the police ?

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## veitnamcam

> So you think it is a right but it only applies to a fit and proper person? Is that some sort of legal restriction ?


Yep just like your right to have consensual sex with who ever you like it still has to be within the law ie not a 5 year old

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Toby

Well yeah I guess its the police that say yes or no

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## krewzr

I thought your right to have sex with anyone you like was also subject to consent from the other person.. as well as the restrictions such as age limits prescribed by law. 

So where can I find this legal restriction that says I have a right to own a firearm if I am a fit and proper person?

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## krewzr

I understood that if police refused to give someone a firearms licence then that person could appeal to the District Court or ask for judicial review in the High Court?

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## Toby

If it was a right everyone would have guns

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## krewzr

> If it was a right everyone would have guns


How do you figure that? Surely its a right to have a car or a fishing rod.. not everyone has a car and a fishing rod ? Or do you think having a car and a fishing rod is a privilege?

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## Toby

They are different things, you are just being an anal fuck about it.

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## krewzr

> They are different things, you are just being an anal fuck about it.


Wow.. that's a pretty strong reaction. I only asked a question. Why do you think I'm being an anal fuck because I asked a question comparing what you said about owning a firearm to owning a car and a fishing rod... it's OK to say "I don't know" if you don't know.

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## Toby

I don't know.

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## Happy

> Wow.. that's a pretty strong reaction. I only asked a question. Why do you think I'm being an anal fuck because I asked a question comparing what you said about owning a firearm to owning a car and a fishing rod... it's OK to say "I don't know" if you don't know.


On ya Richard   "The word smith"

 Cast your bait you get a bite eventually.. Toby how rude ...  :Psmiley:    Play nicely ...

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## veitnamcam

> I thought your right to have sex with anyone you like was also subject to consent from the other person.. as well as the restrictions such as age limits prescribed by law. 
> 
> So where can I find this legal restriction that says I have a right to own a firearm if I am a fit and proper person?


Yep that's what "consensual sex" means. I may have miss spelled Im not sure Im not an English teacher.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## krewzr

> I don't know.


Stay tuned then... hopefully some-one else will be able to enlighten both of us.  :Wink:

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## krewzr

> Yep that's what "consensual sex" means. I may have miss spelled Im not sure Im not an English teacher.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


So where can I find this legal restriction that says I have a right to own a firearm if I am a fit and proper person?

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## veitnamcam

Not sure what your getting at here, is it some legal definition of a right or something?
Im not a lawyer either. 

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Happy

Ha ha he knows the answers already hes trolling guys.. Must be too rough at sea today to be actually trolling catching some fish.

 Richard you hunting the roar this year ? Hows your hunting been lately down there ? Its pretty dry up here at present but a few Animals starting to come out to play .

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## veitnamcam

I already figured that and have been waiting for enlightenment .
Doesn't seem to want to share tho.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Eion

I'll chuck in my two cents. A right is, "something to which one has a just claim", or, "something that you are morally or legally allowed to do". So by the definitions, which are one and the same, owning a firearm isn't a right. We have the right to attempt to get a firearms license, when we have a license we have a right to a firearm. So because there is a legal requirement that is not met by everyone (having a license) it is not a universal right.

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## Kscott

Ohh ffs.

Can we PLEASE leave NSA stuff to the NSA forums ? 

Getting fucking sick and tired of reading on something somewhere where Krewzr leaps up asking about rights and privileges which then descends into a stupid shit fight. Richard you've got your own pool to play in, why pester people in other forums ? It's the same questions and the same answers over and over again.

It's really getting tedious.

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## Savage1

> I thought your right to have sex with anyone you like was also subject to consent from the other person.. as well as the restrictions such as age limits prescribed by law. 
> 
> So where can I find this legal restriction that says I have a right to own a firearm if I am a fit and proper person?


Are you talking about owning a firearm or possessing a valid firearms licence. Why don't you stop asking stupid questions that you know the answer to.

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## Towely

There is no such thing as "rights" as far as im concerned. "Rights" were created by people for people and some of you on here seem to look up to them as some sort of magical talisman to guide you through life. Just more words scrawled on some paper somewhere. Meaningless bullshit.

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## Happy

> Ohh ffs.
> 
> Can we PLEASE leave NSA stuff to the NSA forums ? 
> 
> Getting fucking sick and tired of reading on something somewhere where Krewzr leaps up asking about rights and privileges which then descends into a stupid shit fight. 
> It's really getting tedious.



  Seriously we were waiting for his conversation to drop into informative stuff like well     Hunting and Shooting with maybe some bush craft tips, Equipment reports, a story of the latest back breaking trip into the bush and the success, maybe some bush receipes
 a few good possum trapping spots and you know hunting and shooting stuff. He may have even shared some pics of his latest hunting rig in a hunting situation ...

 Oh shit sorry am I being sarcastic... Do I have that as a right or is it just a priveledge.. Now I ve confused my self ..    :Wtfsmilie:   :36 1 5:

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## krewzr

> Ha ha he knows the answers already hes trolling guys.. Must be too rough at sea today to be actually trolling catching some fish.
> 
>  Richard you hunting the roar this year ? Hows your hunting been lately down there ? Its pretty dry up here at present but a few Animals starting to come out to play .


Supposed to going out on Mnt White for the roar.. buts its way too hot; will have to take the nightvision me thinks  :Have A Nice Day:

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## krewzr

> I'll chuck in my two cents. A right is, "something to which one has a just claim", or, "something that you are morally or legally allowed to do". So by the definitions, which are one and the same, owning a firearm isn't a right. We have the right to attempt to get a firearms license, when we have a license we have a right to a firearm. So because there is a legal requirement that is not met by everyone (having a license) it is not a universal right.


So if there is no right to posses a firearm, why does the Arms Act say that a person cannot possess a firearm without a licence? Surely if the right does not exist in the first place, then there is no requirement to place a restriction on the right ?

----------


## krewzr

> Ohh ffs.
> 
> Can we PLEASE leave NSA stuff to the NSA forums ?


Why do you think firearms ownership is exclusively NSA stuff ?

----------


## Toby

> So if there is no right to posses a firearm, why does the Arms Act say that a person cannot possess a firearm without a licence? Surely if the right does not exist in the first place, then there is no requirement to place a restriction on the right ?


Unless Im not understanding this right you're agreeing with what he said. you have the right to apply for the licence but its not a right to own a firearm

----------


## krewzr

> Unless Im not understanding this right you're agreeing with what he said. you have the right to apply for the licence but its not a right to own a firearm


I thought firearms ownership was an inherent right in a free democratic society... but subject to any over-riding limitation in law. So there is a right to own a firearm, but to exercise that right, a person must have a firearms licence which provides an exemption from the general restriction preventing the exercise of that right - imposed by the Arms Act... but I stand to be corrected if anyone can provide an alternative explanation.

----------


## Happy

> Why do you think firearms ownership is exclusively NSA stuff ?


  It may not be the case but the point is this forum has a rule of no political discussions as experience has proven that it always ends in abuse and thats not wanted or tolerated here.
  Discussions on rights etc are open to personal interpretation so chances are high individuals will disagree, possibly why there are wars everywhere but who wants to talk about that.

 See even my example on wars can open a fight cos one individual supports one side and so on. 
 Do this : informative stuff like well Hunting and Shooting with maybe some bush craft tips, Equipment reports, a story of the latest back breaking trip into the bush and the success, maybe some bush receipes
 a few good possum trapping spots and you know hunting and shooting stuff. Out doorsy stuff equipment stuff and on and on .
 Dont do this :

1. So where can I find this legal restriction that says I have a right to own a firearm if I am a fit and proper person? 
2. There was an assertion made on this thread that firearms ownership in New Zealand is a privilege; not a right. Just wondering if anyone can tell me where that came from? 

 Or any of that other stuff you posted. Majority dont want it. Just upsets folks and I m pretty confident you know the law statutes and all the info/ answers possibly better than most so you re just winding folks up..
 Why not try using the forum in the spirit of others without all of the winding people up.. Happens nearly every post you participate in.

 Just my thoughts take it or leave it but carry on and some one will start a thread asking for votes about your place on this forum me thinks..

 Hope you get in the hills for a roar hunt , hot or cold good to just do it ...

----------


## POME

Wasn't this thread about 2 dumb asses having their FALs taken off them for spotlighting? I for one would take great exception to any one i knew who did this. Having had a spotlight come my way a few years back. I would even consider grassing them up. But a right or privilege? Who cares? Just be glad we can go out and put some lead in the air when we choose to. A lot of people in a lot of countries can not.

----------


## krewzr

> It may not be the case but the point is this forum has a rule of no political discussions as experience has proven that it always ends in abuse and thats not wanted or tolerated here.
>   Discussions on rights etc are open to personal interpretation so chances are high individuals will disagree, possibly why there are wars everywhere but who wants to talk about that.
> 
>  See even my example on wars can open a fight cos one individual supports one side and so on. 
>  Do this : informative stuff like well Hunting and Shooting with maybe some bush craft tips, Equipment reports, a story of the latest back breaking trip into the bush and the success, maybe some bush receipes
>  a few good possum trapping spots and you know hunting and shooting stuff. Out doorsy stuff equipment stuff and on and on .
>  Dont do this :
> 
> 1. So where can I find this legal restriction that says I have a right to own a firearm if I am a fit and proper person? 
> ...


There was quite a bit of discussion about this issue on this thread prior to anything I posted. I'm not sure why, just because I participate in a current discussion, it gets blamed on the NSA and certain individuals take offence. Perhaps I ought to create another profile with a different name?

I am simply interested in finding the source of the 'opinion' that ownership of firearms is a privilege in NZ..so far no-one has been able to explain to me where this opinion has come from?

Not sure why that qualifies as being controversial - again no-one has been able to explain why? 

Surely hunters and outdoors people are not so overly-sensitive that any discussion about their opinion is considered objectionable ?

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## Kscott

> Wasn't this thread about 2 dumb asses having their FALs taken off them for spotlighting?


Sure was.

----------


## Happy

> There was quite a bit of discussion about this issue on this thread prior to anything I posted. I'm not sure why, just because I participate in a current discussion, it gets blamed on the NSA and certain individuals take offence. Perhaps I ought to create another profile with a different name?
> 
> I am simply interested in finding the source of the 'opinion' that ownership of firearms is a privilege in NZ..so far no-one has been able to explain to me where this opinion has come from?
> 
> Not sure why that qualifies as being controversial - again no-one has been able to explain why? 
> 
> Surely hunters and outdoors people are not so overly-sensitive that any discussion about their opinion is considered objectionable ?


 Not sure but true the thread had some length before your involvement.
 Nek minute you then the words Fuck and Anal came along. I felt there was some some baiting being done..  
 Might be your interrogation style . ha ha ..
 Only my opinion.

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## krewzr

> Not sure but true the thread had some length before your involvement.
>  Nek minute you then the words Fuck and Anal came along. I felt there was some some baiting being done..  
>  Might be your interrogation style . ha ha ..
>  Only my opinion.


Or possibly when a younger person is asked a question that illustrates a fatal flaw in the reasoning underpinning their stated opinion.. they get frustrated and take the easy way of attacking the person rather than the argument ??

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## Toby

Possibly, and 99% likely, but don't forgot about the "Adult" who lacks common sense and is just here to shit stir and he knows dam well hes doing it.

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## krewzr

> Possibly, and 99% likely, but don't forgot about the "Adult" who lacks common sense and is just here to shit stir and he knows dam well hes doing it.


I hope you're not implying that I'm shit-stirring just by seeking information by asking questions... come to that, I also hope your not implying that I'm an adult.

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## BRADS

> I hope you're not implying that I'm shit-stirring just by seeking information by asking questions... come to that, I also hope your not implying that I'm an adult.


Sure seems that you are trying to get a bite

----------


## Toby

> I hope you're not implying that I'm shit-stirring just by seeking information by asking questions... come to that, I also hope your not implying that I'm an adult.


I'm implying both. From your intelligence post I thought you'd be intelligent enough to work that one out. Yup you can go say this boy said this and that and agrees with you on the other forum now...

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## krewzr

> Possibly, and 99% likely, but don't forgot about the "Adult" who lacks common sense and is just here to shit stir and he knows dam well hes doing it.


Don't take offence Toby. I'm just saying that we ought not fear evidence that leads us to the truth; even if that displaces our most deeply held beliefs. If someone asks you a question mate, and you feel the immediate need to attack the questioner...chances are your assertion has some holes in it - take a breath and come up with some reasoned answer. Adopting this approach will help you in all areas of your life... including hunting: if a deer gets away on you, review your facts and ask yourself why? Next time, you have a better chance of not repeating the mistake.

I'm not here to shit-stir. I'm just interested in where people get the idea that firearms ownership is a privilege... I'm hoping that someone who believes in the 'privilege hypothesis' can explain where that comes from? Few years gone by; many different forums, and I have found not a single person who can qualify the hypothesis.

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## Savage1

Here's a right for you Krewzer

You have the right to speak with a lawyer without delay and in private before deciding whether to answer any questions.

That is a right, I suggest you use it to answer your questions.

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## Toby

Sorry for calling you an anal fuck Krewzer. I got pissed off but am a little calmer now so sorry. Was going to Pm you to say sorry but be just as good here.

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## krewzr

> Here's a right for you Krewzer
> 
> You have the right to speak with a lawyer without delay and in private before deciding whether to answer any questions.
> 
> That is a right, I suggest you use it to answer your questions.


That would be good advice except that lawyers can really only give opinions on matters of law... I'm asking for advice on a matter of opinion about a purported privilege; not a matter of law.

I  spoke to one of New Zealand's preeminent constitutional lawyers the other day. He told me that the US constitution gave American's the right to keep and bear arms. He also said that there was no corresponding right in New Zealand. It took only two questions to have his mind changed  :Have A Nice Day:

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## krewzr

> Sorry for calling you an anal fuck Krewzer. I got pissed off but am a little calmer now so sorry. Was going to Pm you to say sorry but be just as good here.


All good.

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## Savage1

And what were those two questions?

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## krewzr

> And what were those two questions?


#1 Does the 2nd amendment grant the right to keep and bear arms?... or does it simply provide a constitutional protection against the infringement of what is recognised as a preexisting right?

#2 If there is no right to possess firearms in New Zealand.. then why is there a law which restricts people from exercising that right, and if that law was repealed , would we need further legislation to reinstate or grant us the right?

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## krewzr

How do you figure political ? This was discussion primarily about a purported opinion.. and some peripheral law issues. No mention of politics here ?

There was nothing in relation to NZ constitutional arrangements or the right to bear arms. The discussion was simply about what the legal landscape is in New Zealand in relation to the ownership of firearms; specifically if that is or is not a privilege.

Legislation is law Tussock... politics is what the politicians do.

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## BRADS

> How do you figure political ? This was discussion primarily about a purported opinion.. and some peripheral law issues. No mention of politics here ?
> 
> There was nothing in relation to NZ constitutional arrangements or the right to bear arms. The discussion was simply about what the legal landscape is in New Zealand in relation to the ownership of firearms; specifically if that is or is not a privilege.


Be a shame if *Tussock* makes you go bye bye

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## krewzr

> Be a shame if *Tussock* makes you go bye bye


I would view it as an illustration rather than a shame...

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## ebf

Tussock, could you guys pls do us all a favor and just delete kewzr as a member of this forum.

Richard, you hide behind clever words, fancy legal arguments, but in the end you do nothing but stir shit.

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## krewzr

> Tussock, could you guys pls do us all a favor and just delete kewzr as a member of this forum.
> 
> Richard, you hide behind clever words, fancy legal arguments, but in the end you do nothing but stir shit.


I don't hide behind anything EBF.. Everyone knows who I am, where I am and how to get hold of me.

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## krewzr

Does this email mean nothing ? Is it just bollocks ?

Hello, krewzr!

We've noticed that you've not been active on NZ Hunting and Shooting Forums for quite some time now, and we miss you!

Could we not tempt you back?

If you don't remember your password, you can request it here: Lost Password Recovery Form - NZ Hunting and Shooting Forums
We hope to see you soon

Kindest Regards
NZ Hunting and Shooting Forums
http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz

To stop receiving this email, visit this URL: http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/optout-reminders.php?u=1469&e=rlincoln@cit.net.nz"

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## ebf

> I don't hide behind anything EBF.. Everyone knows who I am, where I am and how to get hold of me.


and yet you seem to feel compelled to market yourself every couple of months by doing the same old bullshit routine...

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## gadgetman

> #1 Does the 2nd amendment grant the right to keep and bear arms?... or does it simply provide a constitutional protection against the infringement of what is recognised as a preexisting right?
> 
> #2 If there is no right to possess firearms in New Zealand.. then why is there a law which restricts people from exercising that right, and if that law was repealed , would we need further legislation to reinstate or grant us the right?


Just out of interest I'd like to know what you came up with.

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## krewzr

> and yet you seem to feel compelled to market yourself every couple of months by doing the same old bullshit routine...


I'm not marketing myself EBF.. I have not offered anything for sale on here. If you think intelligent discussion amounts to bullshit, then simply don't participate; no-one is forcing you. And don't send me whinging PMs.. I'm not interested.

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## Rushy

> Tussock, could you guys pls do us all a favor and just delete kewzr as a member of this forum.
> 
> Richard, you hide behind clever words, fancy legal arguments, but in the end you do nothing but stir shit.


I endorse this request. The posts above are divisive and antagonistic and not consistent with the community spirit of this forum.

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## krewzr

> An illustration of our policy on NSA grandstanding.


This has nothing to do with the NSA Tussock. I'm here as a private individual and I have made no mention of the NSA other than to say that it has nothing to do with the NSA.

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## krewzr

> Just out of interest I'd like to know what you came up with.


He conceded on both points

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## Happy

> He conceded on both points


 Told you earlier you were headed down the bye bye track.. Why you no listen ??? Clever , dumb is  what we call them ...

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## krewzr

> Told you earlier you were headed down the bye bye track.. Why you no listen ??? Clever , dumb is  what we call them ...


Because I have done nothing wrong and are simply participating in a discussion which was under discussion prior my involvement.. if a person can get deleted from the forum for that.. well then so be it; no great loss to me.

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## Happy

You just dont understand... Laters..

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## krewzr

> You just dont understand... Laters..


Yeah I do understand... it goes like this: anyone can say pretty much anything they want as long as: Firstly, I'm not that anyone, and secondly, what is said is only what is congruent with the popular view of the agitating minority.

I just don't agree.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## ebf

here it is in a simple mathematical formula, maybe you get this version ?

*agitating minority = krewzr / Richard*

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## Rushy

> There is no precedence for the members to have someone removed by vote from the members.


I respect that Tussock.  My view is simply that this thread has rapidly declined into exactly sort of situation that gave rise to your other thread entitled "a little reminder"

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## gadgetman

> Might be time to get out the brush and shovel. Who needs a cup of tea?


I'll put kettle on.

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## Kscott



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## Toby

Blonde and sweet for me

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## sood

Doesn't say a lot for this forum when someone gets banned for asking questions about things that others have said. Undermines the whole principle of freedom of speech and thought in my view.

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## veitnamcam

Burn baby burn

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## gadgetman

> Blonde and sweet for me


Got a sweet little strawberry blonde for you here Toby.  :Wink:

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## Rushy

> I'll put kettle on.


Milk no sugar thanks

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## ebf

> Doesn't say a lot for this forum when someone gets banned for asking questions about things that others have said. Undermines the whole principle of freedom of speech and thought in my view.


sood, welcome to the forum. head on over to the "introduce yourself" thread. looooong history with that particular user, we're a friendly bunch (mostly).

p.s. do you realize that your username, if you reverse it in Afrikaans, spells something pretty derogatory  :Grin:

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## Towely

> Doesn't say a lot for this forum when someone gets banned for asking questions about things that others have said. Undermines the whole principle of freedom of speech and thought in my view.


I agree. The amazing part is that all of you bitching and moaning were also helping to stoke the fire so to speak. If he had been ignored then he wouldnt have posted half the stuff he did. 

As i said before... Fucking amazing

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## Rushy

> Doesn't say a lot for this forum when someone gets banned for asking questions about things that others have said. Undermines the whole principle of freedom of speech and thought in my view.


Colour me very cynical but it seems to me that your arrival here has been particularly well timed in the prevailing circumstances.  Is that you by another name Richard?

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## gadgetman

> Milk no sugar thanks


Ready, ...

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## Rushy

> so make the most of it ladies.


Got my pinny on and my rollers in my hair.  Just waiting for the cuppa now!

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## gadgetman

Think he would get on better by not continually asking questions that the average Joe Bloggs cannot answer. It often gets read as a personal attack by whoever reads it. Kind of harassing with questions. Might be good for what he is doing but not here.

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## ebf

> Got my pinny on and my rollers in my hair.  Just waiting for the cuppa now!


Quick, we need a photo for the forum album  :Zomg:  And pls gawd, I hope you're not going Scottish on us and that you're wearing something under the pinny  :Sick:

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## 7mmsaum

> Doesn't say a lot for this forum when someone gets banned for asking questions about things that others have said. Undermines the whole principle of freedom of speech and thought in my view.


Welcome to the forum sood, and to your very first post, please help us understand who you are and where your coming from before you berate.

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## Toby

Forum tea lady makes sense now. That's a old kettle.

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## Rushy

> Attachment 8040


Perfect.  Just how I like it.  Now for a wee natter about this and that.  Isn't that Justin Beiber a cute wee lad?  I'll stop being silly now.

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## BS101

> Think he would get on better by not continually asking questions that the average Joe Bloggs cannot answer. It often gets read as a personal attack by whoever reads it. Kind of harassing with questions. Might be good for what he is doing but not here.


Well if the Admin on here has banned him from discussing his views... what else can he do but ask questions ? 

I agree with sood... very bad look for an open forum when someone gets harassed and then banned just for asking for questions ? Is this a forum or a side-show for despots ?

----------


## Toby

Is it me or does it seem he has got his mates or some shit to get on here too?

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## Rushy

> Well if the Admin on here has banned him from discussing his views... what else can he do but ask questions ? 
> 
> I agree with sood... very bad look for an open forum when someone gets harassed and then banned just for asking for questions ? Is this a forum or a side-show for despots ?


Gosh there seems to be an influx of new members defending this position or am I just being cynical as I said in a previous post?

----------


## Savage1

> Gosh there seems to be an influx of new members defending this position or am I just being cynical as I said in a previous post?


I'm sure it's just coincidence Rushy  :ORLY:

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## Happy

> Well if the Admin on here has banned him from discussing his views... what else can he do but ask questions ? 
> 
> I agree with sood... very bad look for an open forum when someone gets harassed and then banned just for asking for questions ? Is this a forum or a side-show for despots ?


OMG I can write and I was just born this morning. You have to be kidding.. If not welcome brother !!! May as well start it as you intend to finish ...

----------


## gadgetman

> Well if the Admin on here has banned him from discussing his views... what else can he do but ask questions ? 
> 
> I agree with sood... very bad look for an open forum when someone gets harassed and then banned just for asking for questions ? Is this a forum or a side-show for despots ?


Yes, I agree to a point. What I'm trying to say is he does have a habit of just asking questions. A different manner could improve his acceptance a great deal. Somehow he just seems to inflame a lot of people.

----------


## Toby

> Yes, I agree to a point. What I'm trying to say is he does have a habit of just asking questions. A different manner could improve his acceptance a great deal. Somehow he just seems to inflame a lot of people.


Its the way he comes across as, he knows it too and carry's on to do so.

----------


## gadgetman

> Its the way he comes across as, he knows it too and carry's on to do so.


Exactly, and I'd better start hobbling away as quick as I can before TR finds my earlier reply to you re the cuppa'.

----------


## Toby

> Exactly, and I'd better start hobbling away as quick as I can before TR finds my earlier reply to you re the cuppa'.


I lied, I prefer black tea with no sugar now.

----------


## gadgetman

> I lied, I prefer black tea with no sugar now.


Chicken.  :Grin:

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## BS101

So its one thing to call him and anal fuck and expect it to roll off his back without a word... but by asking a perfectly civil question he becomes Attila the Hun ? FFS now if that's not a double standard I don't know what is... I think there are some agendas coming into play here.

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## Rushy

All fellow members Shhhhh

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## gadgetman

> So its one thing to call him and anal fuck and expect it to roll off his back without a word... but by asking a perfectly civil question he becomes Attila the Hun ? FFS now if that's not a double standard I don't know what is... I think there are some agendas coming into play here.


Well I recall an apology, and acceptance, for the name calling. Sometimes when you see your comments/questions are just causing grief you just need to walk away. But constant blunt questioning is a tactic often used in interrogation. Taking a snap of a landscape is fine; 100 cameras with flashes going in someones face is generally not acceptable. I'm just suggesting a softer approach might prove more fruitful for everyone.

----------


## Happy

Thats polite of you Rushy. I was waiting for someone to say enough BS101 Starting to = Bull Shit 101
May have a masters in the subject.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Well if the Admin on here has banned him from discussing his views... what else can he do but ask questions ?


Oh that's easy. Its a hunting and shooting forum.
Discuss hunting and shooting.
Leave personal agenda out of it and politics religion no worrys.

I asked for a legal definition of a right but he couldn't give one or ignored it, and just kept on with silly questioning.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Survy

Hey fellas,
I saw the headline thought sweet I'm a Shottie bottie owner
Read first page then skipped to last page, something changed in between went back a page and laughed me hairy arse off

Trollol lol lol banned ...... Lol

Is it too late for a nice cuppa ? Milk with 2 thanks

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## gadgetman

> Hey fellas,
> I saw the headline thought sweet I'm a Shottie bottie owner
> Read first page then skipped to last page, something changed in between went back a page and laughed me hairy arse off
> 
> Trollol lol lol banned ...... Lol
> 
> Is it too late for a nice cuppa ? Milk with 2 thanks


And a biscuit?

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## gadgetman

> Thats a bit dark for me. I like my tea like I like my women, yellow and hot
> 
> If she sees this she will kill me, but well, she is after all (no smiley for man being hit with frying pan).


There is no point having a cuppa so weak you have to help it out of the cup.

If the pan sticks just paint it blue and call it a beret.

----------


## gadgetman

Well in that case you really want it to stew, ... or get some coffee.

----------


## BS102

Well now the banning and blocking has been running hard and fast. What an awesome forum... Thou shalt not give a dissenting view or ask serious questions and those who do will be blocked or banned !

So lets all sit around and agree with each other and have a really interesting discussion on the merits of having a good old cup of tea... what a bunch of wankers. I can see this forum has a great future.. I for one will be contacting all the advertisers and pointing out a few home truths... in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you find your server having a few problems in the near future..

Whats worse than a bunch of Hunting and Fishing forum wankers..... answer: a bunch of reject Hunting and Fishing forum wankers ! 

Wankers  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## R93

Does the forum tart have to take these new posters for a couple nights out in the scrub? :Wink:

----------


## veitnamcam

Bye bye then  :Have A Nice Day: 
If we are all such wankers you won't want to hang around.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## BS102

Oh... but I so want to hang out and do some hand-wringing, back patting and agreeing... that's whats we're all here for isn't it?

[sent from outer space by my Klingon communicator using plain old English]

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## R93

> Well now the banning and blocking has been running hard and fast. What an awesome forum... Thou shalt not give a dissenting view or ask serious questions and those who do will be blocked or banned !
> 
> So lets all sit around and agree with each other and have a really interesting discussion on the merits of having a good old cup of tea... what a bunch of wankers. I can see this forum has a great future.. I for one will be contacting all the advertisers and pointing out a few home truths... in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you find your server having a few problems in the near future..
> 
> Wankers


BWAAAAAA!!! HAAAA!!! HAAAAA!! I am LMFAO!!  You sir, come across as a complete Fucktard, there is just no other way of putting it!!!!!!

----------


## Toby

> \in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you find your server having a few problems in the near future..\


Is that a threat?

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## gadgetman

> in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you find your server having a few problems in the near future..


Interesting statement?

Someone doesn't seem to realise the metaphor of the cuppa'. How many battles do you know of where the army invade in bright flouro orange tanks? Try to blend and join in rather than rant and whine, these are traits not particularly popular in NZ.

----------


## BS102

> Is that a threat?


Ha ha haa... you wankers don't need a threat.. you're enough of a threat to yourselves ha ha

----------


## Toby

If this forum is so shit why are you here?

----------


## R93

> Ha ha haa... you wankers don't need a threat.. you're enough of a threat to yourselves ha ha


Your wit, I expect, is only exceeded by your ability to pick up women. Can you find somewhere else too use it please?

----------


## BS102

> If this forum is so shit why are you here?


DONT ASK FUCKING QUESTIONS... YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO... YOU'LL BE BANNED !

----------


## Happy

Beautiful bull shit 102 you have just threatened publicly an organization. My IT guy already knows where you are etc etc
Umm what happened to Bullshit 101 I  didn't think you had passed grad to 102 ?

----------


## Toby

> DONT ASK FUCKING QUESTIONS... YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO... YOU'LL BE BANNED !


That time of the month?

----------


## BS102

> Your wit, I expect, is only exceeded by your ability to pick up women. Can you find somewhere else too use it please?



How about we discuss sex and travel? I'll start:

FUCK OFF

----------


## Toby

> How about we discuss sex and travel? I'll start:
> 
> FUCK OFF




Except me

----------


## BS102

> Beautiful bull shit 102 you have just threatened publicly an organization. My IT guy already knows where you are etc etc
> Umm what happened to Bullshit 101 I  didn't think you had passed grad to 102 ?


OH OF COURSE HE DOES... ha ha your "IT guy" doesn't know shit... tell him to chase my IP and email address as much as he likes... right up to the nether-nothing

----------


## ebf

pass the popcorn pls  :Pacman:

----------


## BS102

There ya go... a new IP for you to chase... let me know when you get bored and I'll chuck another one at ya lol

----------


## BS102

WHAT DO YOU CALL HUNTING AND FISHING FORUM REJECTS?

NZHS WANKERS

----------


## R93

Ouch!! Please tell me your not old enough to have a FA licence? If you are, and have one, I have serious reservations about your fit and proper person status.

----------


## Toby

> WHAT DO YOU CALL HUNTING AND FISHING FORUM REJECTS?
> 
> NZHS WANKERS


Its fish and hunt, What if we didn't come from there?

----------


## BS102

> Its fish and hunt, What if we didn't come from there?


Actually its called FISH & CUNT and if weren't there first... then when you get there I'll be sure to call you a reject NZ Cunt and Shoot wanker.. you can avoid that for a while by not asking question on here and instead just agree with everyone.

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## StrikerNZ

> in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you find your server having a few problems in the near future..


Implied threat to commit a crime (hacking).

Nice to see you acting like a fit and proper person.

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## veitnamcam

> WHAT DO YOU CALL HUNTING AND FISHING FORUM REJECTS?
> 
> NZHS WANKERS


I will take that as a compliment .

Thank you very much!

Now off you go to fish n hunt.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Toby

> Actually its called FISH & CUNT


Im pretty sure its fish and hunt, I guess they hate you too?

Their Website agrees. New Zealand Travel ~ New Zealand Tourism ~ NZ Information

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## gadgetman

Time to leave it for now I think fellas. Let the mods clean up the mess.

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## Neckshot

What do you call a fucktard from another forum who loves butt plugs and babyoil?????????
BS102!

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## Happy

> Actually its called FISH & CUNT and if weren't there first... then when you get there I'll be sure to call you a reject NZ Cunt and Shoot wanker.. you can avoid that for a while by not asking question on here and instead just agree with everyone.


Holy smoke we broke you Rich !! We need to know what you did to BS101 or is he a bike stand someplace ? Could be aggressive questioning is not allowed if so sorry we ll miss you but you did start it bro !

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## gimp

Whoa, what the shit?

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## BS102

> Holy smoke we broke you Rich !!


Yawwwwwnnnnn of course you did... and the 'just can't be bothered' eye glazing boredom of the idiots is now too boring to take... bye bye

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## Neckshot

> Someone had a meltdown.


Nah he just needs to put his Dummy back in and hop into his cot and take all his toys with him!

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## Kscott

Ironically NSA fan boys also came along into a F&H thread in support of their boss after links to the thread were published on . . . NSA forums  :Grin:

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## R93

> Yawwwwwnnnnn of course you did... and the 'just can't be bothered' eye glazing boredom of the idiots is now too boring to take... bye bye


It is seriously a concern that someone like yourself and with your attitude should ever, have the audacity to think they can represent peoples rights to firearms ownership, Richard.

You seem to be a bit loose and wreckless. Not cool. :Sick: 

Things not going well at home? You wanna come camping?

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## gimp

I doubt that is Richard. He may be pedantic and love playing silly word games instead of just stating a point, but he's never seemed out and out retarded/insane.

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## Happy

> Yawwwwwnnnnn of course you did... and the 'just can't be bothered' eye glazing boredom of the idiots is now too boring to take... bye bye


We know Rich hard to type one handed but you gave it a go.

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## Kscott

Just ignore him. Like all children, they scream for attention and sulk when none is given.

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## 30calterry

[QUOTE=BS102;96136]Actually its called FISH & CUNT and if weren't there first... then when you get there I'll be sure to call you a reject NZ Cunt and Shoot wanker.. you can avoid that for a while by not asking question on here and instead just agree with everyone.[.  Nice rant buddy legendary !!!

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## gimp

If you read 'sood' upside down and back to front it reads 'poos'.


Thought of the day.

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## gimp

> If you read 'sood' upside down and back to front it reads 'poos'.
> 
> 
> Thought of the day.


This is a terrible post.

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## Kscott

"There are currently 10 users browsing this thread. (6 members and 4 guests)"

Polular with the general public it seems  :Zomg:

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## gimp

> Your worst yet, and thats saying something.


And yet 2 people "liked" it. Trap sprung.

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## ebf

the 4 guests are probably be BS103, BS104, BS105 and BS106, we just haven't met those incarnations yet  :Grin:

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## 30calterry

> This is a terrible post.


Exactly gimp if he had anything of any interest to this forum he would have said it by nw , in my experience u can't argue with people like that so let's not!! Anyway good bit of rain aye we had close to 80mm up here on the kaimais

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## Toby

I thought it was funny, small things amuse small minds I guess

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## 30calterry

> I agree. 
> 
> Although, Gimp was talking about his post. I agree with him too. It sucked.


Shit ! Was agreeing with to poos one to many tuis again

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## R93

> I thought it was funny, small things amuse small minds I guess


I just pondered the mind that studied it long enough to notice it.

But it is no surprise a disturbed prick like me found it funny  :Grin:

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## R93

> You guys think hes dumb? You have no idea!


Who?

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## gimp

> I just pondered the mind that studied it long enough to notice it.
> 
> But it is no surprise a disturbed prick like me found it funny


Ipad with locked orientation, read upside down while doing other stuff. It's funny what jumps out at you.

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## Kscott

> You guys think hes dumb? You have no idea!


He's a mastermind and a genius.




> I for one will be contacting all the advertisers and pointing out a few home truths...


Starting with Shooting Supplies, who are 1st up in the commercial advertisers section ?

It has been said before, despite best attempts, you just can't beat the stupidity out of people.

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## 30calterry

The deer will be out this weekend up here! Paddocks are greening up quick as

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## steven

> It is the *RIGHT* of every* FIT AND PROPER* Kiwi to hold and use firearms within the law.
> 
> Spotlighting public camping grounds probably rules out the fit and proper bit


There is some case law, or a judge saying that it isnt a right but a privilege.  Im not up on the ins and outs of english and maybe legal english but it would seem there is a clear difference.

regards

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## steven

> There was an assertion made on this thread that firearms ownership in New Zealand is a privilege; not a right. Just wondering if anyone can tell me where that came from?


Its NZ law or how a judge has said he see's it.  

regards

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## R93

> A real IT genius.



It would seem so. Impossible to track. He is bouncing everywhere. We should be nice and apologise before his IT genius is unleashed on us. He may tap in to N koreas red button?

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## gadgetman

Oh well Tussock, kettle on? Coffee this time?  :Grin: 

I believe he is of reasonable intellect. Not too sure on his people/communication skills.

So, anyone got dibs on the likelihood of the arms acts being repealed?

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## Spanners

Hes on 2 Degrees - hardly a genius

Clicked the ban button

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## Spanners

Nice look Richard

Krewzer, Sood and BS101 all the same IPs today...

Well done for making yourself look like an idiot

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## Rushy

Just caught up on the last four or so pages. Wow ten out of ten for tenacity.  Ten out of ten for stupidity.  Bristling with anticipation.  Hope to meet someday.  Long memory

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## Kscott

> Nice look Richard
> 
> Krewzer, Sood and BS101 all the same IPs today...
> 
> Well done for making yourself look like an idiot


Don't forget, the NSA are here to save ourselves from ourselves  :Thumbsup:

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## Toby

> Just caught up on the last four or so pages. Wow ten out of ten for tenacity.  Ten out of ten for stupidity.  Bristling with anticipation.  Hope to meet someday.  Long memory


Like a elephant aye.

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## Rushy

> Like a elephant aye.


Longer Toby.

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## Toby

> Longer Toby.


Now that's saying something.

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## kotuku

perserverative is the adjective describing the said "legal beagles"festering desire to constantly push his own agenda!
   No its nothing like what ya granny puts in jam jars!

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## Happy

> . 
> 
> So who's going to support the NSA?


 Funny you know mid last year I was going to. It was on the list of things to do. Quite glad that it got moved to the maybe when you get round to it list.
Frankly now theres not a chance in hell. Maybe the original intent was noble but they have lost it big time.. Be way too many ego s all beating each other up
Imagine keeping minutes at one of their tea parties ...

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## Toby

I sure as hell wont be, and if asked about it by someone I will steer them clear.

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## Rushy

Not me I am *N*ow *S*omewhat *A*nti

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## FletchNZ

Geez, What a thread. It makes me sad to read, I'm a paid member of the NSA and I believe in what the NSA is trying to achieve but I just wish he wouldn't go out trying to alienate the other shooting groups like this. If you want to ask some questions and this is the outcome you're doing something wrong.

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## gadgetman

Yes Tussock, from that little episode I would supporting the NSA would just be supporting an ego. He won a small skirmish, I can see him needling the authorities in the future, I see little else of note.

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## gadgetman

> Geez, What a thread. It makes me sad to read, I'm a paid member of the NSA and I believe in what the NSA is trying to achieve but I just wish he wouldn't go out trying to alienate the other shooting groups like this. If you want to ask some questions and this is the outcome you're doing something wrong.


+1

It is all good constantly asking questions, but every now and then he needs to quieten down and listen. Communication is a two way thing.

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## mucko

> Im not up on legals ebf, Im from the school of common sense.
> 
> If a NZ citizen is legally deemed "fit and proper" what piece of legislation denies the right to hold/use legally arms ebf?


Agreed Everyone haves the right to apply for a FAL if after vetting if they are proven to be fit and proper they are then issued a Licence. they are then privileged to hold a licence and exercise good judgement while using and possesing a firearm. if you are found to be in breech of the firearms laws then you can lose your privilege to hold a licence.

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## veitnamcam

Isn't what they won what's caused this latest lot of rule changes?

Has anyone managed to get compensated after they won that case?

Im just asking cos i don't know.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## dogmatix

VC, I think to be compensated, newly created E-Cat license holders had to give up their E-Cat license and safe after the Lincoln court case ruling.

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## Beavis

I love Richard's work, commend him highly, but sometimes I just wish he would speak as a layman or stfu. This isn't the way to get new members.

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## Towely

> Isn't what they won what's caused this latest lot of rule changes?


Not at all. The police were trying to change their interpretation of what features make an A cat semi auto into an E cat. Basically it would have been the end of A cat semis to some minor extent unless you were to not have a pistol grip or thumbhole stock. The adverts were in the papers telling us all about this. NSA challenged this in court and won. The police reinterpretation was deemed illegal. Now they are trying the same thing again but they are trying to do it properly through the right legal channels and close up all the loopholes. It is a blatant gun grab in my view and part of an agenda that has been around for years, if you care to look at trends from other countries that is.

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## Happy

> I love Richard's work, commend him highly, but sometimes I just wish he would speak as a layman or stfu. This isn't the way to get new members.


 He d be a great defence lawyer. Everyone would be so fuking sick of him youd be let go so long as you promised never to bring him back into court.

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## veitnamcam

I thought i heard the cops stood to loose millions compensating people who had to hand in one to destroy ?

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## Kscott

> I love Richard's work, commend him highly, but sometimes I just wish he would speak as a layman or stfu. This isn't the way to get new members.


He is his own worst enemy. Had the opportunity to simply say "oh, you think it's a right ? Why not pop over the our forums to discuss it further because . . . ?" and this simple, clear message which is read by many people just _might_ increase public awareness and actual membership numbers (actual, rather than the make believe ones claimed in Parliament). Those people, who are shooters and frequent forums - you know, the target market for NSA membership.

Guess the problem is, once you tell a lie, it's hard to keep track of which lie is said when and where. Pretty basic stuff for kids, must be a bit trickier for law students  :Grin:

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## gadgetman

> I thought i heard the cops stood to loose millions compensating people who had to hand in one to destroy ?
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


The hand ins for a new one?

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## FletchNZ

> I thought i heard the cops stood to loose millions compensating people who had to hand in one to destroy ?
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


That's a different kettle of fish being covered in the "statement of Claims" which has been filed in Court - I don't know the finer point other than its a separate thing an its in progress

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## R93

> I love Richard's work, commend him highly, but sometimes I just wish he would speak as a layman or stfu. This isn't the way to get new members.


Put him in a box like the gimp then, and only let him out when he is needed in court. He should stay away from forums other than his own.

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## Scouser

Read it all yesterday, and into the night, thought better to STFU and not comment, plenty of forum members put him in his place.......

regards his site, i mean the NSA, the advice to buy plastic 'drainpipe' and the equivalent of cosmoline to bury A cat ARs was pretty disturbing...

a bit like 'LOOK AT ME, IM BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW, AND I DONT GIVE A FUCK!!!!!!!!......cool, go for it matey....

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## kotuku

in actual fact gents the case of R Lincoln Vs NZ police and the judgement of Justice Mallon J .hinges on the expert testimony of one Rodney Woods ,gunsmith (retd)of Loburn nth canterbury.
   Rods testimony was such that despite WWW searches and documentary consultation ,the police via the crown were simply unable to refute it.
 This is in fact mentioned byJustice Mallon.
  Mr grant initiated the challenge but his claims to victory could in this case be somewhat contestable without that witness.
    In saying that however it certainly had the desired effect of the learned judge telling the lads in blue to pull their heads in and do what is expected of them ,not play legislators so thats a positive.BTW-i downloaded the judgement and have it in my "firearms "reference file"

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## ebf

> Geez, What a thread. It makes me sad to read, I'm a paid member of the NSA and I believe in what the NSA is trying to achieve but I just wish he wouldn't go out trying to alienate the other shooting groups like this. If you want to ask some questions and this is the outcome you're doing something wrong.


Hi Fletch, other than Mikee and Richard, you are the first real NSA member I've come across... Hope you don't mind if I ask you a few questions:

- Do you know anything about the management structure / executive of the organisation ? Are there regional co-ordinators etc ?

- Have you ever attended a NSA meeting (regional or national) ?

- As a member have you ever been sent any AGM minutes or information about the finances ?

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## gimp

I support the principles of the NSA, in theory. I think we as law abiding license holders shouldn't have to put up with illegal behaviour from the police abusing their power. Mr Lincoln stood up on the thumb hole stock issue when everyone else (NZDA, COLFO, etc) didn't do a damn thing. 

They don't do themselves any favours in terms of public image, but to be fair the reaction here (sorry Toby) wasn't great from some either. Simple reading comprehension goes a long way. Don't get mad/frustrated at someone if you can't understand them.

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## Toby

I know I over re-acted. But he didn't even answer a question he was asked, he just answered it with another question.

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## ebf

Gimp, are you a member ? If so, same questions I asked Fletch.

I have a strong suspicion that the NSA organisation is a bit of a lark dreamt up by a couple of students who

1) have way too much free time on their hands
2) think that causing shit-fights on forums is fun, and love proving just how "smart" they can be
3) have come up with an ingenious way to drum up support for their future law firm... even bad publicity is still publicity  :Wink:

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## gimp

No, I'm not a member because I think they're dicks. The 'bury your guns' thing on the website, the copy and pasted from the US NRA stuff they used to have up. Etc. Silly word games rather than just stating a point. 

I may join though, even though I think they're dicks, because they are at least pro-active in trying to help firearms owners (did the E cat handin case get decided? Was that even them?) and the membership fees probably aren't all that much compared to say, what I spend on ammo every year. If the cost of a brick of .22 ammo contributes to my continued ability to own and shoot that brick of .22 ammo, it's not a bad deal.

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## FletchNZ

No Worries ebf, just a quick reply as i'm heading out the door...

- Do you know anything about the management structure / executive of the organisation ? Are there regional co-ordinators etc ?

I know that Richard seem to be running the show and the organization was formed when he took them to court. He seems to be doing the majority the work, ie 6? odd months ago he was asking what issues people were having, getting evidents from everyone, lodging the statement of claims ( the one addressing the hand ins amoung other things)

- Have you ever attended a NSA meeting (regional or national) AND As a member have you ever been sent any AGM minutes or information about the finances ?

No, Nor would I attend or care. I joined the organization as it was the only one who stood up for shooters who were interested in various firearms effected by the touch our butts campaign when all other groups did nothing. There are no meetings, if anything need to be discussed it was done on the forum. I'm happy to donate $50 (approx) to the cause to help cover costs as I can see things are being done and he spends a lot of time and his own money doing it. I believe in what they are achieving and I because of the touch my butts campaign I was able to my first AR15 2-3 years ago and ended up joining the local Service rifle group, i've meet some great people and I love talking guns all day and I'm thankful for that. 

I'm not super active on the forum so some of this may be incorrect but it how I understand it

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## ebf

Tx Fletch, appreciate the answers

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## ebf

Hey gimp, how come your posts don't show "last edited by". I could have sworn reply 260 was shorter the first time...

Is it an admin thing ? Or am I hallucinating  :Grin:

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## gimp

I have magic powers.

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## Beavis

I'm some what (quite loosely) affiliated with NSA, not currently a paid up member. Pretty much as Fletch said, I fully support the battles they fight, but I don't see how stirring up people who don't agree with us 100% helps much at all. The old saying about how you piss someone off and they tell 9 others etc. Richard and his team play an important role, some body needs to be there with the stones to stand up to the authorities when they over step the mark.

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## ebf

> I have magic powers.


Sounds like that should end the with Tui ad wording  :Wink: 

Beavis, I must be hallucinating, coz for the first time in ages, I agree with about 3/4 of one of your posts  :Grin:

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## veitnamcam

While I support anyone fighting for our rights as firearms owners(whatever type of firearm that may be) I dont follow this type of news or politics.
I like to be informed tho, He failed to inform me when asked a direct question he insinuated he already knew the answer to. 

His statements on here and other forums would make most owners wonder if he was "fit and proper".

He may or may not be a brilliant lawyer specializing in firearms law, I wouldn't know Im just a dumb engineer.

He may or may not be a super geek capable of crashing our forum and all the police/govt shit, I wouldnt know Im just a dumb engineer.

What i do know is if he is the ambassador of all our sports we are all fucked. Like we really need a hot head young upstart advocating criminal behavior as an ambassador.

He would probably argue some shit about the legality of burying a firearm you arnt legally able to posses,, is that someone you want representing you?

I like the ideals, not the extremest viewpoints.

membership? na Il pass thanks.

The best thing anyone can do to further your sport(whatever it is) is to get more people involved, I really do try hard at this and urge you all to get as many new people into your particular gun sport as possible.

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## Spanners

100% on the money Cam
I've said the same about the whole thing since day 1. 

After the little outbursts from his numerous logins in the last few days, how can you even start to take someone like that seriously ??

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## Toby

Don't the police read these forums?

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## 7mmsaum

Yes they do Toby. Lots

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## Toby

Do you think they would bring this up if they go to court with him again?

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## gimp

Unlikely.

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## gimp

"Your honor, someone who may or may not have been the plaintiff was a kind of a dick on the Internet. I submit that the suit should be dropped"

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## Spanners

In sure they already know he's an idiot and don't need this thread to prove it  :36 1 11:

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## Kscott

> He may or may not be a brilliant lawyer specializing in firearms law


lol, not even close  :Grin:

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## steven

> 100% on the money Cam
> I've said the same about the whole thing since day 1. 
> 
> After the little outbursts from his numerous logins in the last few days, how can you even start to take someone like that seriously ??


Which is where I ended up....I was quite interested in supporting them until I read the pipe and chain lube bit...

 :Wtfsmilie: 

Then his last rant when we clashed and Im thinking this guy isnt all there in the head.....

 :36 1 5: 

Time to keep well away from. 

Of course its good to have someone who's prepared to push back, be a bit confrontational but not overly so, its a fine line I think. I do regard the Police as a very political organisation who will thus make (bad for someone) political decisions and not good rational legal/technical ones at times (but hell no ones perfect). Ergo they need to be reminded that thats a no no.  For me the pistol grip thing appears to be an excellent piece of work, the good however destroyed be the bury gun in a pipe on public property so its not mine line which is totally un-acceptable.

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## Dougie

Holy crud, I go away for five days and come home to 19 pages of this....  :Thumbsup:  I read to page seven and gave up!

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## ebf

keep reading, you haven't gotten to the swearing and minor mental breakdown part yet  :Grin:

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## Dougie

> keep reading, you haven't gotten to the swearing and minor mental breakdown part yet


Roger, I'll go put the kettle on first!

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## Dougie

Well, wow....

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## Scouser

> Well, wow....
> 
> Attachment 8192
> 
> Attachment 8193


Jeese, even your pooch gave up!!!!!!

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## Dougie

> Jeese, even your pooch gave up!!!!!!


I know eh!  :Grin:  He fell asleep before I even finished.

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## outdoorlad

3 biscuits, I hope you gave the dog one!

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## kotuku

> My dog bit a hole in her mangy blanket. Which is Ok, but this morning she bit a hole in MY mangy blanket!


 now tussock -nowt wrong with that as long as you and dawg aint sharin the same blanket.not questionin your integrity old boy ,but if so well id give her the side with the bloody hole in.she can stick her tail through and still keep warm ,but yourself........ :Omg:

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## Dougie

> keep reading, you haven't gotten to the swearing and minor mental breakdown part yet


Roger, I'll go put the kettle on first!

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## Dougie

Well, wow....

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## Scouser

> Well, wow....
> 
> Attachment 8192
> 
> Attachment 8193


Jeese, even your pooch gave up!!!!!!

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## Dougie

> Jeese, even your pooch gave up!!!!!!


I know eh!  :Grin:  He fell asleep before I even finished.

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## outdoorlad

3 biscuits, I hope you gave the dog one!

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## kotuku

> My dog bit a hole in her mangy blanket. Which is Ok, but this morning she bit a hole in MY mangy blanket!


 now tussock -nowt wrong with that as long as you and dawg aint sharin the same blanket.not questionin your integrity old boy ,but if so well id give her the side with the bloody hole in.she can stick her tail through and still keep warm ,but yourself........ :Omg:

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