# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  Subsonic load for 308

## jim160

I realise each rifle is different but im after a starting point for some load data for subsonic loads in the 308.

Im after some loads for the 208gr and 212 projectiles I have if they don't sell.

Has anyone got a starting load for the 308 using either trail boss or even any of the ADI powders or pistol powders.

Any help would be appreciated.  Cheers.

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## Cigar

With cast 151gr bullets my 1:12 twist 24 inch barrel is subsonic at 7.5 grains of Trailboss. My 1:8 twist 16.5 inch barrel is 8 grains.
I have some 190gr Sub-X loads but can't get to the range until level 2, I've started at 9 grains for them assuming they will need a bit more push being heavier and jacketed.

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## burtonator

I run a 308 with 1-8 twist 18” barrel 
151g cast is 1000fps with 7.2grains of trail boss
168 Lehigh projectiles are 1000fps with 9 grains of trail boss 

Casts are great for possums and pests round camp and the Lehighs are awesome on big game

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## Gkp

You will probably find that closer to 10 grains is sub sonic for an over 200 gr projectile. Just have a play around, that's what reloading is all about.

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## aetchell

Tikka 308 with 18" barrel. I use 151gr casts and 7.5gr trailboss. Comes in at about 1040fps.

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## The bomb

8g trail boss with 151  and 170g cast is subsonic in my 16in A7

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## Flyblown

Its a really easy process @jim160. Load up five cases that span the point at which you think youll break the sound barrier. Work backwards, i.e. heaviest load to lightest load, and listen for the supersonic crack. It will suddenly disappear. Congratulations, youre subsonic. Now drop your load to 0.2gr below that, to be consistently below the sound barrier. Youre aiming for about 1,000fps.

Crimping cast lead bullets is essential to maintain consistent pressures.

As Gkp says, your load will be higher than those suggested for lighter bullets. I would start at 10gr and work back in 0.3gr intervals to 8.5gr, youll find it somewhere in there.

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## grandpamac

Greetings All,
What an excellent thread. I have a .308 in the cupboard that does not get out much. It has a 10 power Bushnell scope with target turrets so swapping loads and zero's should not be a problem. There are also some cast and plated projectiles on the shelves so a cup of coffee and out to the shed. Thanks Jim160 and others.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## jim160

> And since it hasn't been mentioned, do the testing WITHOUT a supressor. If you get em tumbling, you can kiss your can (or at least a few baffles) goodbye.
> 
> Shooting over a chrony is more reliable than listening for the sonic crack, and will give you more data to work with and you can aim for 1040-1090FPS depending on altitude and weather.


I've been lucky so far with the 300blkout.   They tumbled but luckily didnt hit the suppressor. 
Will  load some up and shoot to see if they tumble.  Then I will shoot through the chronograph to check velocity.

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## rambo-6mmrem

Would be hard to hurt yourself or even your rifle with trail boss 
Start with a full case (not compressed) and work down till you get what you want over the crony
That’s actually what the Instructions say on the website
Its Opposite to other powders as you work down not up

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## aetchell

> Greetings All,
> What an excellent thread. I have a .308 in the cupboard that does not get out much. It has a 10 power Bushnell scope with target turrets so swapping loads and zero's should not be a problem. There are also some cast and plated projectiles on the shelves so a cup of coffee and out to the shed. Thanks Jim160 and others.
> Regards Grandpamac.


Yep. Bushnell elite 4500 on my 308. I zero at 100 with 168gr fiocchi exacta then dial up 8moa to zero at 25 for the subs. It makes for a good day out. 

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## aetchell

> I've been lucky so far with the 300blkout.   They tumbled but luckily didnt hit the suppressor. 
> Will  load some up and shoot to see if they tumble.  Then I will shoot through the chronograph to check velocity.


Got a recipe for 300blk? Ive got the howa mini action in that calibre and want to make it a pure subsonic rifle. 

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## jim160

> Got a recipe for 300blk? Ive got the howa mini action in that calibre and want to make it a pure subsonic rifle. 
> 
> Sent from my ELE-L09 using Tapatalk


Not yet.  Was getting there but there was the lockdown so haven't got anywhere yet.  Had issues with them tumbling so need to sort them out first.
Have some 150s loaded up to see if they stabilise

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## jim160

Tested the loads today.  The 208gr subsonic tumbled but did group at 25m.  The supersonic 208gr ones worked fine.

The 150gr flat tip projectiles plus the 150 cmj ones worked as usual.  Chronographed at 1030fps.

The 174gr cast grouped with 8.7 & 9g of trail boss.
Will chronograph them at some stage and get them in the right speed range.

Then zero at 50m with drop chart for 25m to 100m.

The 300blkout stabalised as well and were very quiet.  Will need to chronograph them.  

At least I have a decent start point.

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## jim160

> Got a recipe for 300blk? Ive got the howa mini action in that calibre and want to make it a pure subsonic rifle. 
> 
> Sent from my ELE-L09 using Tapatalk


 @aetchell I will give you a start point with mine, but your barrel length and wear will show different speeds.
Most factory subsonic loads were for the short barrels on ar15s and were supersonic in longer barrelled rifles.

But will let you know.  I think the powder used is 2205.

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## Bill999

My tikka barrelled sako 75 uses 8.3 gr of trailboss for the 151grs and 8.5gr for the 165gr ballistic tips

I'd guess 9.5 gr for the projectiles you mentioned, start higher and work down 
Make sure the holes in the target are round before screwing on the suppressor

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## jim160

> My tikka barrelled sako 75 uses 8.3 gr of trailboss for the 151grs and 8.5gr for the 165gr ballistic tips
> 
> I'd guess 9.5 gr for the projectiles you mentioned, start higher and work down 
> Make sure the holes in the target are round before screwing on the suppressor


I think mine is 8.5gr for the 150gr which gives 1030fps.
Haven't chronographed the 174gr ones yet

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## Shearer

10.2gns of TrailBoss do it in my 16" 308 with 200gn Lapua pills.

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## G.I_Joel

Stupid question... take the can off and shoot subs through but leave your scope where it is? Then just see how the subs group? Change powder levels till your grouping well and below sound barrier?

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## stug

You will have a big elevation difference between subs and supers. My supers are sighted dead on at 100yds. I need 6MOA elevation to get subs to zero at 25yds.

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## jim160

> Stupid question... take the can off and shoot subs through but leave your scope where it is? Then just see how the subs group? Change powder levels till your grouping well and below sound barrier?


No you take the suppressor off and test to see the projectiles dont tumble.  If they tumble they could hit the suppressor and damage it.
Once they shoot straight and dont tumble, then put suppressor on and carry on

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## Cigar

> You will have a big elevation difference between subs and supers. My supers are sighted dead on at 100yds. I need 6MOA elevation to get subs to zero at 25yds.


4.5 MOA difference for me between supers at 200m and subs at 50m

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## jim160

I'm hoping for mine to be a dedicated subsonic rifle.
And supersonic as a secondary option

I will have a 260AI and a 6.5 creedmore for any hunting requiring higher velocities

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## Tararua Phil

Did you see this? a series of 3 vids...interesting. (hope it's the right one.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB1DpwMth98

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## aetchell

> @aetchell I will give you a start point with mine, but your barrel length and wear will show different speeds.
> Most factory subsonic loads were for the short barrels on ar15s and were supersonic in longer barrelled rifles.
> 
> But will let you know.  I think the powder used is 2205.


Cool, thanks. Ive got a 16" barrel on the howa mini action. 

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## aetchell

> You will have a big elevation difference between subs and supers. My supers are sighted dead on at 100yds. I need 6MOA elevation to get subs to zero at 25yds.


Yep. Same here. Zero for 168gr at 100, 8moa for subs at 25

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## jim160

Has anyone tried using 2205 for subsonic loads with the 208gr projectiles in 308.
Trail boss didnt work so I might try 2205 cause it worked in the 300blkout

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## Pommy

> Has anyone tried using 2205 for subsonic loads with the 208gr projectiles in 308.
> Trail boss didnt work so I might try 2205 cause it worked in the 300blkout


I've tried 2205 in 308 with 220gr RN's, and in 7.62x39 with 180gr RN's (bad bullet choice btw).

It works reasonably well. I got more consistent velocities than with trail boss. On the other hand, it's a lot slower burning than train boss - pressure is so low that cases don't seal the chamber, and there's more pressure at the muzzle meaning it's a fair bit louder.

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## faregame

Has anyone tried the Winchester super x subsonic loads?

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## faregame

Nah I don’t reload - maybe later I will, so the factory rounds appeal, if they work - I use a 300 BLK at the moment with supers and subs

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## Mohawk660

what is the maximum distance a 308 sub load would be good for?

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## aetchell

> Did you see this? a series of 3 vids...interesting. (hope it's the right one.)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB1DpwMth98


in the second video, that sweet dog is right up in the stinging nettle. its supposed to be deadly to dogs from what I ready?

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## stug

> what is the maximum distance a 308 sub load would be good for?


Depends on the sub projectile. I'm pretty sure one of the guys in here has shot deer at a couple of hundred yards with subs using the lehigh projectile. The lead HP ones, about 75yds would be the limit.

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## The bomb

I limit myself to 50m with the cast 150g and trail boss,look at it like bow hunting,unless you can brain or spine shoot them be prepared to do some tracking.

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## stug

@Mohawk660 check out this thread https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....ubsonic-23441/

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## Mohawk660

Thanks Stug. Am looking at doing some sub loads as want to shoot over my dog. Looks as if i will be spending plenty of time at the range

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## Tertle

@jim160 mate im sorry i haven't seen this post, probably best in some respects  :Wink:  this is my first 24hrs in months with NO meds....... so hang on with any ramblings....

so, rifle that i used in this project was / is a single shot omark, I had a little removed from the end, threaded and a Gunworks maximus suppressor made up for it. Love Omarks and for the purest, ive saved a fair few over the years and this one was never going to be a target rifle again....i digress, but ive just found some reloading 2B4 old reloading notebooks so.....

the following is only around the subsonic development, my goal was to create a hard hitting accurate quiet round, 

Powders that ive tried, 2206H, Alliant 2400, Trailboss, 700x wow a raft of them, found the 2400 lethal with a Carcano 6.5 with lead cast projectiles, the 308, it was trail boss!

Cast projectile weight ranged from 208Gr looks as if i sized to .312 of which with a very classic annoyed handwriting "with much annoyance, ive realised ive not properly written down the previous top load"  "the author is a poor recorder of loads, an idiot"..............which makes me laugh, and a little cry as from what i can tell i was making a 224gr projectile sized .310 GC with wool filler, with 9gr trail boss another with 12gr of 2204 i know one was super quiet and more than adequately accurate, how so i made up a box of 50, and am now down to only a couple, owell ill be more attentive!

i also found a load for a 150rn sized to 310, notation = "quiet, very accurate" was with a filler, possibly with flared case 1430,1418,1407,1385, 1399fps

i will keep looking and see what moulds i was using, i know i was even making my own gas checks, my go to guru was / is The Cast Bullet Kid, jeff is truely a legend! in fact i may bug him next now that im able too!

ramblings done!

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## G.I_Joel

I’ve seen people drill out the flash hole to guarantee a god burn rate when using trail boss? Is this necessary or just a waste of time?

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## Cigar

> I’ve seen people drill out the flash hole to guarantee a god burn rate when using trail boss? Is this necessary or just a waste of time?


I was told I didn't need to, so I don't.

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## grandpamac

> I’ve seen people drill out the flash hole to guarantee a god burn rate when using trail boss? Is this necessary or just a waste of time?


I skimmed through the Hodgdon sheet on using Trail Boss for reduced loads in rifles and a later article on the same subject by John Haviland on loaddata.com. Neither mentioned drilling out flash holes so I will not do it. Incidentally John got about 1050 feet per second from both 150 and 165 grain jacketed projectiles in a 16 inch barrel. 
Grandpamac.

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## shooternz

> I’ve seen people drill out the flash hole to guarantee a god burn rate when using trail boss? Is this necessary or just a waste of time?


Any body recommending drilling out flash holes steer clear of him he is an idiot, And knows little about reloading and nothing about cast bullets and loading subsonic loads.
I have a note on my pad to message you, I am back casting again, what was it you need I will fit it in some where I have couple of big orders to do but it is good to take a break
and cast something else.
Cheers
Robert.

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## Martin358

Hi Robert, are you casting any heavier projectiles than the 151

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## shooternz

> Hi Robert, are you casting any heavier projectiles than the 151


I have a 170 grain pointed GC mold and a 200 grain flat point plain based mold the 200 grain is not stable at subsonic velocity in some rifles
the 151 works in all barrel twists at all velocities

This is a 151HP  subsonic  taken from a pig shot at 20 metres,
All the recovered bullets look like this,
You can email me at  'robs.reload@gmail.com'
 I am still busy with orders but can probably do you some 151HP I am casting them this week
Cheers
Robert.

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## shooternz

You need to go back a long way in time before any of you were born to find why the Drilling out of flash holes was in use,
When the .30 government was all the rage, They use to shoot indoor gallery matches at 50 feet with 173 grain cast bullets
loaded with very light loads of Pistol/Shotgun around 3.5 grains of Bullseye and other powders in that burn rate with kapok 
as a filler, The problem was the pressure from the primer charge would cause the primer to back-out of the pocket and tie-up the bolt
so the solution was to drill out the flash hole to reduce the pressure, That is the simple version the long technical version is about a full page,
You can try it your self  Seat a primer in a full length sized case  and fire it , It may or may not back out of the pocket if you do it often enough 
you will get it to work, I and a couple of friends  did it one wet Saturday afternoon many years ago, 1969 don't remember which Saturday
Don't do it with subsonic loads it will increase pressure and pressure equals velocity and also stuff up the cases for higher pressure loads,
Use Trail Bass and other fast powders for subloads they give enough pressure to blow the case out to seal the chamber so you don't get
gas leaking back into the action and sooting it up, For reduced loads AR 2206H is the best loaded to 60% 2208 is marginal for this type of load.

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## shooternz

Photos pop up on websites once in a while of rifles having S.E.E  Secondary Explosive Effect or detention, The labs have never managed to duplicate it
so it must be rarer than getting struck by lightening, The labs maybe too well controlled Temperature and Humidity wise for it to happen it may need 
the right weather conditions to trigger it, One thing every one agrees on that it is light charges of slow burning powder that causes it, there are two main theories 
one is that the powder lays flat on the bottom of the case while in the chamber below  the flash hole when the primer fires the flash does the length of the powder
igniting it all at once, No two is that the primer fires and starts the projectile moving it stops when it hits the rifling and then the powder ignites and hits a pressure spike,
They probable other theories, Until it happens in controlled condition no one knows, So don't load below recommend start loads and you can't go wrong, well you can but that is another story.

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## grandpamac

> Photos pop up on websites once in a while of rifles having S.E.E  Secondary Explosive Effect or detention, The labs have never managed to duplicate it
> so it must be rarer than getting struck by lightening, The labs maybe too well controlled Temperature and Humidity wise for it to happen it may need 
> the right weather conditions to trigger it, One thing every one agrees on that it is light charges of slow burning powder that causes it, there are two main theories 
> one is that the powder lays flat on the bottom of the case while in the chamber below  the flash hole when the primer fires the flash does the length of the powder
> igniting it all at once, No two is that the primer fires and starts the projectile moving it stops when it hits the rifling and then the powder ignites and hits a pressure spike,
> They probable other theories, Until it happens in controlled condition no one knows, So don't load below recommend start loads and you can't go wrong, well you can but that is another story.


Greetings All,
There was an excellent article on SEE in Handloader Magazine some years back from memory in line with what shooternz has given above. I will retrieve the issue from the banana box storage system and report any additional bits I find.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## jim160

I will flag the 208gr or heavier.
Will stick with the 150gr ones.  And then leave it with the 8.5gr trail boss at 1040fps.
Might have to modify slightly with cast projectiles but not by much if any

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## grandpamac

Greetings All,
Articles appeared in Handloader Magazine in 1987 and 1990 written by Roger Stowers about loading for the 240 Gibbs. The 240 Gibbs was a wildcat from the 1950's developed by Rocky Gibbs. It was basically a 6 mm-06 Max with the shoulder moved forward and increased to 35 degrees. Roger's first article dealt with his struggles with start loads. Roger used 49 grains of IMR 4831 in fire formed cases with Speer 105 grain spitzer projectiles. This should have been a mild load but blew primers, case heads and extractors. Roger found that he could minimize the problems by elevating the muzzle prior to firing, seating the bullet backwards or increasing the jump to the lands. Velocity was 2,800 feet per second, a pedestrian load for the .243. In his second article Roger works up to a max of 57 grains of IMR 4831 with the 105 grain projectile for 3,224 fps with no problems. Roger felt that the excess air space in the case was the problem and eliminated all loads with more than 1/4 inch or more air space between the powder and the base of the bullet. Incidentally Roger had the same problem with IMR 7828 and a little less with H 4831.
So there you have it, pressure excursions with non case filling loads of a slow powder related by someone who was actually there and cleaned up the mess afterward. The factors seem to be: case large for calibre, steep shoulder? and load over 10% less than max.
Should this be a problem in the .308? No. Could we stick a projectile in the bore with a light load of powder? Definitely. .308 Mauser could be right that current powder has been improved to eliminate the problem but we should not take any chances.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## G.I_Joel

Sooooo, maybe slightly off recent topics but! I have gotten my hands on some of Roberts 151gr projectiles...and have loaded some into sub loads. Stupid question about to emerge from this... the projectiles are super short and only marginally seated into the neck of the case to get OAL, this is a good thing? That the projectile is only a small amount pressed into the neck?

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## The bomb

I had trouble with them feeding into chamber from mag on my A7 due to length and olive being a long way forward.

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## Cigar

> Sooooo, maybe slightly off recent topics but! I have gotten my hands on some of Roberts 151gr projectiles...and have loaded some into sub loads. Stupid question about to emerge from this... the projectiles are super short and only marginally seated into the neck of the case to get OAL, this is a good thing? That the projectile is only a small amount pressed into the neck?


I seat to the cannelure and lightly crimp the case. Other forum members have said crimping improved accuracy.

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## G.I_Joel

Does this look right? Ive just wound my seating die all the way out and press them in and continue to do so until I achieve the OAL. I mean they stay in there so shouldnt be an issue? Will add a light crimp when I know that they are seated correctly. I guess Im just so used to boat tail projectiles seating right in the neck...

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## Cigar

I seat so that the case mouth is at the top groove in your photo.
I don’t load to an OAL with the cast bullets, I don’t even measure them.

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## Cigar

Roll crimping must be into the cannelure, the Lee factory crimp doesn't, and I think taper crimp doesn't.

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## FatLabrador

Does shooternz casts come lubed up or do you do that yourself also how much $ are these for 100?

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## Cigar

> Does shooternz casts come lubed up or do you do that yourself also how much $ are these for 100?


Yep, they come lubed, with gas check. They were $40 plus postage per hundred last time I bought some (late last year), rural postage was $8.30 IIRC.

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## shooternz

> Does this look right? I’ve just wound my seating die all the way out and press them in and continue to do so until I achieve the OAL. I mean they stay in there so shouldn’t be an issue? Will add a light crimp when I know that they are seated correctly. I guess I’m just so used to boat tail projectiles seating right in the neck...


Seat to the crimp groove the bullet is designed to be seated so the base is flush with the base of the neck in a .308 give it a light crimp 
and you are set

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## Micky Duck

if you leave them like that Joel...the lube will either fall off/wear off/melt off or pick up every bit of grit around...seat them deeper ,to the crimp groove as Robert has said or at very least untill all the red bit is inside case mouth.

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## The bomb

Might find you will pull the bullet if trying to eject a unused round with them seated at that length,that’s what would happen with my A7 when I tried seating them long to help with feeding from the mag,the projectile was jammed into the lands due to the olgive

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## Travtravtrav

Hi all. Bit of a query. I have a 16 inch suppressed 308. Looking at seeing what sub loads are available, primary use being for farm jobs. It looks like the 190 sub x's are prevalent. But Trailboss isn't and looks to be less so. The Hodgson website states a list of powders possible with charges required to meet mach 1 (H322 - 13 gr, BM2 - 13.4 gr, H4895 - 13.3 gr). I have acquired H32 and H4895 lately from a relative. Has anyone used these before to make a subsonic load at their stated charges?

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## Micky Duck

dont do it......by all means go light load,but subs suck if your aim is slightly off..... and shooternz on here has awesome 151grn hp cast projectiles at a fraction of the price of other options...highly reccomended.

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## mikee

225gn ELD-M and 12.3gn Trail Boss

168gn Lehigh Controlled Fracture an 9gns Trail Boss

16 inch barrelled 1-8 twist  308Win

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## Travtravtrav

> dont do it......by all means go light load,but subs suck if your aim is slightly off..... and shooternz on here has awesome 151grn hp cast projectiles at a fraction of the price of other options...highly reccomended.


Ok thank you for the info. Looking at the other replies, it does look like the strategies are usually Trailboss based. Im new to asking questions on this site, but want to know if its legit to ask about sourcing powders from other members. Or is it likely that everyone won't want to budge on powders anyway?!

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## mikee

Most are trailboss based as its the easiest option (as long as you can find some)

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## Ground Control

Anyone have an idea of what velocities you get when reducing 2206H down to the 60% load .
My research says ADI says it’s safe to do , but I can find very little info on actual results and velocities.
Anyone tried it ?

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## Micky Duck

> Anyone have an idea of what velocities you get when reducing 2206H down to the 60% load .
> My research says ADI says it’s safe to do , but I can find very little info on actual results and velocities.
> Anyone tried it ?


if you get out a paper and pencil.....yes some of us still use them....and draw up a wee graph..powder weight on one axis and velocity on the other...you will find its pretty close to a straight line..put in what you know and then go forward /backwards to what you think you want and see where its at.....

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## MB

> dont do it......by all means go light load,but subs suck if your aim is slightly off.....


MD is right. I persevered with subs for a year. Most of the time they worked out well with good head and neck shots, sometimes they didn't. If I was shooting baited pigs from a stationary position (or something like that), I'd give them another go, but for snap shooting in the bush, you either don't take the shot or risk injuring an animal that just walks off. Not for me. Your experience may vary.

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## hunter Al.7mm08

> Anyone have an idea of what velocities you get when reducing 2206H down to the 60% load .
> My research says ADI says its safe to do , but I can find very little info on actual results and velocities.
> Anyone tried it ?


This may help? Believe it's the same powder, happy to be corrected 

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## Bill999

Subs work great if you understand their limitations 
Set your max distance and dont compromise 
Know your trajectory to your max distance 
Wait for the ideal shot to present 

My max is 30m and the shot is rising from the muzzle to there so I have to aim an inch high to 23ish m 

I either go bottom of the ear hole or forehead. 

If you dont get your criteria let the animal walk away and stalk in again, work the wind and predict where it will be and get a rest ready if possible (I like leaning against trees) if you miss its going to be real bad so dont miss





I near fucked this one up when I rushed the first head shot as I could see it was looking at me and about to break, if you miss the brain then the will run and it did, I followed it with a heart shot as it ran which was very ineffective. Breaking its spine with the next stopped it running 

Recovered this out of the obliterated vertebrate all others exited

This is the first one iv had take a step and it was all due to my poor first shot. 

It was all subx but I notice no difference using robs 151s they both work great put in the right spot. Know where the brain is and just scramble it If you cant just stalk closer


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## shooternz

> Anyone have an idea of what velocities you get when reducing 2206H down to the 60% load .
> My research says ADI says it’s safe to do , but I can find very little info on actual results and velocities.
> Anyone tried it ?


I shoot cast bullets with 27.0 grains of 2206H velocity will depend on your barrel in mine velocity is 1720fps or there about depending on bullet weight
 just load for accuracy any soft cast bullet will expand at 1500 fps HP's down to 900 fps,
Hard cast bullets will not expand but will shatter if not made properly, High velocity Cast bullets can be made but it is very expensive and not really worth 
the effort,
 I have the mould for The Extreme Cast Bullet it is a .30 cal 165 grain bullet and has been shot at 3100 fps in a modified 30/06 case
and has shot 2 MOA ten shot groups at 600 yards.

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