# Hunting > Hunting >  subsonic 44 for hunting pigs, the realities?

## sixtus

Was thinking about a 44 mag or 44-40 lever action loaded down with cast bullets for pigs at 30-75 yards. Cant user supressors here in the Republic of Australia-stan, after something still a bit less blasty for self and also dogs. How well do flat nose cast kill though at 1050fps?. I hear a few opinions on this from 'okay' to 'terrible' but assume a lot would come down to perspective. My thoughts they wont fall right over.But as long as they arent running a quarter mile to the next farm after a lung shot I'd be happy. Thanks for any experiences!

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## sixtus

Also how is accuracy with such light low pressure loads?

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## muzza

I have a single-shot 44 Mag rifle that is suppressed . Using approx 1000fps loads with the 240 grain XTP projectile you hear "click" then "whop" - but I dont take shots over 70 metres , preferable the closer the better .

Nothing I have shot with it has failed to die, pretty much DRT

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## McNotty

45-70 with 4-500 gr cast lead subs  :Thumbsup:  https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....ubsonic-35616/

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## The bomb

270g cast with 8.5g trail boss was my deer load in my 77/44,killed well within 50m and accurate enough,3in group.

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## Flyblown

We run a .44 Rem Mag with cast 270gr flat nose & hollow points.

They kill very well, because piggy is shot in the head, in the bail.

Load them right, and use a crimp to control neck tension, they are accurate for 30-40m headshots. Have shot a few bunnies a bit past that. But really you’re looking at a proper close range tool.

For additional range and accuracy, I’d use .308 cast lead 151gr. Mine is MOA out to ~80m, again as far as I’ve tested it. Deadly on pigs, goats, head or neck shooting mostly. With subs, the trick is to nail the CNS, that’s my view.

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## Moa Hunter

Go with the 45 70 as above McNotty. A 44 mag is actually a 41 cal projectile. What ever is used go with soft lead. I have a 44 with subs, the 300 grn XTP will go through a pigs neck above the spine and not drop it - this happened twice.

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## shooternz

Go with the .44 mag the 44/40 doesn't do well with bullets not designed for it, To keep the blast down use fast pistol/shot gun powder like AS30 Trail Boss is not happy
with heavy bullets AP70 is as slow as you should go in burning rate, Some of the guys on here use my cast bullets the mould I use is from http://www.mp-molds.com/index.php?pr=Molds
No 432-640  you get a FP and two HP pins my bullets are 280 270 260 grains Cast them as soft as possible and use a good lube not the Lee stuff, Check out Cast Bullet Engineering in Aussie 
they make excellent moulds, go for the wide flat nose type and don't worry about gas checks not really needed under 1500fps.

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## Flyblown

> Go with the 45 70 as above McNotty. A 44 mag is actually a 41 cal projectile. What ever is used go with soft lead. I have a 44 with subs, the 300 grn XTP will go through a pigs neck above the spine and not drop it - this happened twice.


Nope... .44 cal is 0.429”.

And no offence, but if .429” bullet is going straight through a pig’s neck and not dropping it, it’s all to do with the placement, not the bullet! A .45 cal won’t solve that particular problem...

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## shooternz

> Nope... .44 cal is 0.429”.
> 
> And no offence, but if .429” bullet is going straight through a pig’s neck and not dropping it, it’s all to do with the placement, not the bullet! A .45 cal won’t solve that particular problem...


I can make them .431" for that extra hole size, No jacketed bullet can out perform a good cast bullet at subsonic velocity unless you are willing to pay $2.00 and up for each projectile

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## Moa Hunter



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## Moa Hunter

> Nope... .44 cal is 0.429”.
> 
> And no offence, but if .429” bullet is going straight through a pig’s neck and not dropping it, it’s all to do with the placement, not the bullet! A .45 cal won’t solve that particular problem...


Yes you are right 44 mag is .429 and a 4570 is .458, a big difference. A while back Rossi45 posted photos of game - mostly Billy Goats Gruff that had been shot with a 4570 and subs. The damage was dramatic. Bottom line a 44 with subs will not do anywhere near the same damage as a 4570. I shot a big dog tucker ewe on Saturday morning with the 44 and a 300 grn Nosler HP. Hit in the Atlas at 40 metres it was nicely dead but no bruising or much damage away from the bullet path.

Ended up with two posts instead of the text and photo together sorry.

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## Tommy

44 is 0.429, yes, but .41 cal is another thing again (0.410)

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## Gapped axe

Bullet is slower than a deer can run. Good bail gun but thats about it. Bullet doesnt normally go right throu. I would of taken possibly a 1000 or so pigs over the last 40 yrs looking at the old albums, still prefered the short shottie with a solid for a bail or buck shot whilst sitting on a crossing track.

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## Micky Duck

what jumps out at me is what you said from begining....you CANT use suppressor but want less noise...so subsonic ISNT the b all and end all......a reduced load will give you less bang.....just how much reduced you go is entirely up to you.
a longer barrel is quieter than a short one......powder gets burnt in barrel completely...no muzzle flash = no explosion outside barrel = less noise.
heavy for calibre going slower than full noise (funny that expression fits well here doesnt it?) will kill your pigs at sub hundy without issues.
us KIWIs argueing about which sized hole in end of barrel is irrelevant ..WITHOUT suppressor whatever you use will still go BANG ....but with less powder wont go BOOOOM.

to put it another way...if you had 30/30  and 30/06  and 300 WM all shooting 150grn projectiles   the noise would go up as amount of powder went up....
Ive shot 151grn cast out of a 7.62x39mm both at subsonic speed through suppressor and with bare barrel.....the bare barrel times was very pleasant....similar to a .22lr if I wanted to do it again I would not bother trying to go below speed of sound just poke same volume of Trail Boss in behind a soft projectile as other powder listed and see how it "fits with your needs"

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## Tommy

> what jumps out at me is what you said from begining....you CANT use suppressor but want less noise...so subsonic ISNT the b all and end all......a reduced load will give you less bang.....just how much reduced you go is entirely up to you.
> a longer barrel is quieter than a short one......powder gets burnt in barrel completely...no muzzle flash = no explosion outside barrel = less noise.
> heavy for calibre going slower than full noise (funny that expression fits well here doesnt it?) will kill your pigs at sub hundy without issues.
> us KIWIs argueing about which sized hole in end of barrel is irrelevant ..WITHOUT suppressor whatever you use will still go BANG ....but with less powder wont go BOOOOM.
> 
> to put it another way...if you had 30/30  and 30/06  and 300 WM all shooting 150grn projectiles   the noise would go up as amount of powder went up....
> Ive shot 151grn cast out of a 7.62x39mm both at subsonic speed through suppressor and with bare barrel.....the bare barrel times was very pleasant....similar to a .22lr if I wanted to do it again I would not bother trying to go below speed of sound just poke same volume of Trail Boss in behind a soft projectile as other powder listed and see how it "fits with your needs"


Example: When I shoot 38sp out of my lever action, it's quieter to my ear than 22 subs out of my 22 rifle minus suppressor.

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## sixtus

> what jumps out at me is what you said from begining....you CANT use suppressor but want less noise...so subsonic ISNT the b all and end all......a reduced load will give you less bang.....just how much reduced you go is entirely up to you.
> a longer barrel is quieter than a short one......powder gets burnt in barrel completely...no muzzle flash = no explosion outside barrel = less noise.
> heavy for calibre going slower than full noise (funny that expression fits well here doesnt it?) will kill your pigs at sub hundy without issues.
> us KIWIs argueing about which sized hole in end of barrel is irrelevant ..WITHOUT suppressor whatever you use will still go BANG ....but with less powder wont go BOOOOM.
> 
> to put it another way...if you had 30/30  and 30/06  and 300 WM all shooting 150grn projectiles   the noise would go up as amount of powder went up....
> Ive shot 151grn cast out of a 7.62x39mm both at subsonic speed through suppressor and with bare barrel.....the bare barrel times was very pleasant....similar to a .22lr if I wanted to do it again I would not bother trying to go below speed of sound just poke same volume of Trail Boss in behind a soft projectile as other powder listed and see how it "fits with your needs"




As you say, I cant supress anyway, so getting rid of the sonic boom is not as important as just reducing the noise generally. For the record I am reducing blast for my dogs ears, as much as possible. And trying to keep farmers happy on certain farms- only smallish pigs and a few wild dogs accessing multiple banana farms. Farmers are okay with hunting but there is an unofficial limit of "22 Magnum noise" or less on some. Thats flexible, but trying not to abuse it as on a good thing. I am also trying to bring something to the party with a bit more go than a 22 mag.

I understand the basics of lighter charges, longer barrels and faster powders to keep muzzle exit pressures down.

These are the choices

1. 22 mag( its a not a great calibre for pigs, even over baits). I pulled a 22WMR apart too, it had about 6 grains powder surprsingly and factory pressure is 25,000 PSI as we know

2. Subsonic 44 mag as per this thread. 5-7 grain loads for 1000fps, I think about 15,000-18,000 PSi chamber pressure off the load books.

3. Anither plan, loading down a 357 lever with 24" barrel to 1200-1300fps with jacketed bullets. Can get there with 5-6 grains of the right powders, so same or less than above, similar pressure 18,000 PSI, "BUT" the extra supersonic crack. Would it be a f***** shedload louder than the top 2, I wonder? ( id assume louder than the 22WMR)

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## shooternz

> As you say, I cant supress anyway, so getting rid of the sonic boom is not as important as just reducing the noise generally. For the record I am reducing blast for my dogs ears, as much as possible. And trying to keep farmers happy on certain farms- only smallish pigs and a few wild dogs accessing multiple banana farms. Farmers are okay with hunting but there is an unofficial limit of "22 Magnum noise" or less on some. Thats flexible, but trying not to abuse it as on a good thing. I am also trying to bring something to the party with a bit more go than a 22 mag.
> 
> I understand the basics of lighter charges, longer barrels and faster powders to keep muzzle exit pressures down.
> 
> 
> These are the choices
> 
> 1. 22 mag( its a not a great calibre for pigs, even over baits). I pulled a 22WMR apart too, it had about 6 grains powder surprsingly and factory pressure is 25,000 PSI as we know
> 
> ...


I don't have much pressure data,  but one from a 44/40 205 grain load with Red Dot powder is 5.5 grains 7500 CUP 980fps, 6.5 grains 13.600 CUP 1125fps, 7.0 17.200 CUP 1180fps, 8.0 21.900 CUP 1290fps
the start load would be quite a bit less noisy than the max load in a 20" barrel, Over dogs you could drop the velocity to around 600 fps and still have a lethal load the old 455 Webley shoots a 265 grain bullet
at that speed  and is very deadly, the other problem is over penetration, A pest controller I supply 280 grn .44's to gets pass through shots on pigs at 100 metres with a velocity of 900fps so it takes a lot to stop
a cast bullet, They do not blow up like jacketed bullets.

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## Flyblown

> Another plan, loading down a 357 lever with 24" barrel to 1200-1300fps with jacketed bullets. Can get there with 5-6 grains of the right powders, so same or less than above, similar pressure 18,000 PSI, "BUT" the extra supersonic crack. Would it be a f***** shedload louder than the top 2, I wonder? ( id assume louder than the 22WMR)


It's a whole lot louder @sixtus. The supersonic crack is seriously unpleasant in tight bush in the bail, and that's what the dogs don't like. 

When I did the load development for the .44 Magnum, it was specifically to find a way to get rid of the sonic crack without compromising killing power. The new dogs were really struggling with it, and shooting over someone else's dogs that weren't used to a rifle was a non-starter. And not just the dog's ears, but the guys' ears too. 

I tried low velocity but still supersonic jacketed bullets - nope. 
Then subsonic jacketed bullets - ok but pretty ordinary expansion. 
Then Robert's subsonic cast lead hollow points with a good crimp - bingo. 

The guys I load for and occasionally hunt with are as hard case pig hunters as you'll meet, at it 2-3 times a week minimum, farm work allowing, and all three of them will never go back to full power factory ammo. I've seen myself the difference in dog reaction when the rifle is loaded and shouldered, they're no longer backing off the bail and nervously looking back to the shooter. This was a real problem with a couple of good staunch dogs - gun shy. Hardly surprising considering. 

One of the main considerations when building a good pig gun is what sight are you going to use? In our type of conditions, frequently nighttime, we've found a laser plus a red dot reflex sight is the best. Sometimes it's just not possible to get a good aim with the rifle shouldered, and a laser and shot from the hip is what's required. Works very well.

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## sixtus

Thanks for the post mate. Just wondering though regards all that and your buddies are they using supressors for the 44's? I cant use one here.  I just had to clarify ,being you guys have better freedoms with guns than we do, you might assume I can use one. 

if its a choice between equal powder loads in a "44 subsonic bang" and a 357 "low speed but supersonic crack-bang" not making much difference to a bare barrel, I would probably choose the latter just for the jacketed bullet expansion and trajectory.

A 44 subsonic is still not hearing safe but even if bare barrel its less disruptive than anything else for dogs, it will certainly get the nod.

As to sights, yes current 22mag , which is my mates rifle has a lazer with scope at present. Also Gen 1 NVG for a while( which was pretty piss poor performance)

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## Micky Duck

the 357 is to the .44 what the .410 is to 12 ga
it will do the job...but not with same authority.
I started my hunting life shooting bailed pigs with .12ga shotgun...because thats what they had to use in the pines I just followed suit.... the .30/30 was a hell of a lot better...mates had the .357s and they werent ANYWHERE near as good as the .30/30   most folks would say the .44 mag is better than or as good as 30/30   
a 200-240ish grn projectile at or just above speed of sound will shit all over a lighter one.
for bailed pigs a subsonic load will be fine....get out to 50 yards and a little more speed would be better...whatever you use ,you will have to KNOW drop at given range and for the love of all things good...be VERY carefull of ricochets...subsonic bounce around like blowfly in beer bottle if you dont poke them into something to stop them.

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## sixtus

id like to get a load accurate enough with scope too to about 75m. Trajectory will just scrape in with the right zero, wondering how accuracy will go if I tweak enough bullets and powder types... 6" at 75 yards would be no good for example

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## sixtus

> A while back Rossi45 posted photos of game - mostly Billy Goats Gruff that had been shot with a 4570 and subs. The damage was dramatic. Bottom line a 44 with subs will not do anywhere near the same damage as a 4570. I shot a big dog tucker ewe on Saturday morning with the 44 and a 300 grn Nosler HP. Hit in the Atlas at 40 metres it was nicely dead but no bruising or much damage away from the bullet path.
> 
> Ended up with two posts instead of the text and photo together sorry.


They were impressive. A couple of questions, Im wondering the advantage of a 45-70 with heavy subsonic bullets over say a 44 mag or 45 colt with 240-250 grain bullets. They all cut right through small game, have similar calibre and start at the same speed. What am I missing?

Regards the 300gn nosler my thoughts are it doesnt expand. The majority of jacketed 44 bullets wont expand at all subsonically. Off youtube there are a few bullets that do pretty well. The 200 grain gold dot for the 44 special gets .70cal at about 850fps impact, and stays together to about 1200fps. I think one of the XTP's does as well. very few others though.

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## Micky Duck

the day you have that BIG boar in your sights at 70 yards you will then wish like hell you had the extra couple of hundred grains up your sleave.... and I can say with hand on heart...the .45/70 is a hell of a lot of fun to shoot ,with less than full house loads,and it comes with 3 types of loads for different rifles so low loads are easy to make.ADI has a whole page of them recipes....its not overly loud and doesnt boot with the lighter loads even with 400 grn projectiles.

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## sixtus

been there , with eveything from 375H&H down to 22LR (lol) .

Trying to get my head around what the advantage is of the 45-70 hardcast using such a heavy bullet at the same speeds is though. 250-300 still drills this game fully in in a 44/45colt anyway doesnt it?

if it kills better Im guessing the longer bullet keeps up internal velocity better and cause more wound cavity along the full path?

Hollowpoints would agree the bigger 45-70 bullet using its momentum to push it would be good medicine. But 3x the powder charge and for small pigs, probably not needed for this one.

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## Micky Duck

buggered if I know.......mate has .45 long colt rossi lever rifle.....Ive shot pigs in pen with it...worked fine...seen him TRY to shoot hares with it....not so good. its quiet for sure but not overly powerful round...
I believe the above 240grn pass throughs are in .44 calibre not .45.....
end of day you will go with what works best for you...only way to find out is to try it.
big hollow points do work in soft cast projectiles of .45 calibre......well they expand a hell of a lot more in a dirt bank anyway.
I did manage to get the above mentioned .30 cal 151 grn cast to expand out to 14mm.....at subsonic speed.

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## Micky Duck

most guys will tell you if going subsonic you NEED TO hit CNS or double lung and expect animal to walk away then drop.....from my limited experience shooting my own sheep in small paddocks at 30-50 yards if you miss brain the animal will shake its head and walk off,even with a shot through parts of head not containing brain they will carry on....there just isnt the shock power of faster load...Ive shot close to dozen with subsonics and have gone back to 223 as just so much surer of instant result.
you already have a .22 magnum????? they make subsonic load for that now too.......small pigs up close,it will be quieter than std loads . for bigger pigs I would want as much up sleave as possible.

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## Gapped axe

It’s all fun till your under gunned.

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## Bill999

Iv got both 300blk and and 44mag and I'll take the 300blk every time 
Both subs both running cast projectiles

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## MB

Hi Bill. As you know, I've just got my 300BLK outfit sorted. Plan to use subs mostly. Can you tell us a bit about what you use it for, shot placement, range etc. Thank you!

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## Bill999

Pigs, brain or spine. In the bail or as I happen across them when hunting without dogs
I prefer an ear shot(base of the ear hole side on) with 30cal subs 
I dislike pork so would rather a pig walk away than let go a bad shot 
Front on ear to opposing eye cross works fine but side is just as good and is more often offered
Aim small miss small and keep it under 40m an you will never fail

I find accuracy harder with the 44 and acuraccy is everything when hitting the off button on pigs using subs
The joke is that 22 subs are nearly as effective as 30cal and 44cal subs but simply lack the penitration 
So treat your 44 or 30 cal as a subsonic 22 and it will drop everything with authority 
30 cal usually exits so more isn't useful in my mind

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## sixtus

Good point Bill about accuracy. Lever actions are what they are and I am guessing with subsonics a few grains of powder rattling about a case as large as the 44 mag and low pressure, doesnt improve accuracy either. I know you can slug bores cast .001 and .002 over groove diametre and some fellas get real target level results, but I'm not sure what my level of interest is in that. 

 If it wasnt such good situation you wouldnt bother hunting somewhere with a 22mag noise limit. But they get 1-2 pigs coming through a week, and its only 4km from town, very handy. We can larger numbers and hogs in the open areas, the state has the world largest populations, pigs outnumber people 3-1. easy choice there,  anything 243 and over is the go, shoot until the barrel melts.

I think the project has enough sides to it, its a case of just trying it and seeing what happens. Thanks all.

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## Flyblown

Saying it like it is @Bill999  :Thumbsup: 

My personal choice for subsonics is the 308 for the field, 22 for the yards. 

Whilst I get my mates’ desire for the traditional .44, it is interesting that when we go out in the open country I invariably end up taking my 308 as well, and in paddocks up against a fence, generally I’ll be the one to shoot the pig from 30 or 40 yards... It’s just a more accurate option. That’s with Robert’s 151gr cast lead HPs. Both of these caught a subsonic HP in the head... dead nae bother,

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## Bill999

A 308 with a long barrel makes a great sub gun
The extra case capacity seems less of an issue than I led myself to believe regarding subs and suppressor volume
You definitely don't need it but it doesn't seem to make a sound difference compared to 300blk if the barrel is long
Bullet speed seems to be the real difference, from 850fps to 1000fps with the same bullet the noise increases heaps
I slowed my 308 load down a little and it was mouse fart quiet

Im tempted to get some cast bullets in 6mm to try in the 243 as a pointless excersize that are around 80gr as I don't "need" the full power of the 30cal 151gr or 190gr sub-x to do what I do as I used my 10-22 for years to good effect
And shooting hares while hunting is fun too when it's quiet

I think use what you've got 
the minor differences in bore size don't count for much.
 7.62mm vs 10.9mm doesn't mean much if you are just poking a hole in muscle
Get close and crack their skull and it's game over. 
Too low is jaw and sinus cavity
Too high is forehead meat 
Neither kills the animal so it's worth looking at a diagram

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## Micky Duck

Flyblown....is it just my old eyes or had those two pigs been caught too many times before???? cant see any ears at all...Ive seen sow caught 4 times by same fella so he cut one ear off,caught her again,cut other one off so dogs couldnt hold...they did anyway so she got trip out on backpack express.

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## Finnwolf

> Flyblown....is it just my old eyes or had those two pigs been caught too many times before???? cant see any ears at all...Ive seen sow caught 4 times by same fella so he cut one ear off,caught her again,cut other one off so dogs couldnt hold...they did anyway so she got trip out on backpack express.



Likewise- no ears and no sign of blood there.

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## Flyblown

Well spotted @mickey duck. Behind that fence is a good 20m sheer drop into the gorge, classic papa rock country. On the adjacent property, the fences are shit and the pigs will keep breaking until they get to one of their many holes, then it’s Pig Base Jumping, sometimes with an unfortunate dog hanging off an ear, or ball sack. 

This time, the pigs were bailed up against a staunch run of fence that is good for a couple of km along the gorge. Nowhere to run! Oooops...

The pig on the right was completely earless. This pig had been observed going over the edge a good couple of times, SPLASH!, then swimming away. At the same location a couple of clicks from where these were caught, perhaps the biggest boar the guys ever caught did the same thing, over the side into the river, but it drowned probably because it was too tired, or injured. It caused huge upset and there was a crazy effort to try and recover it, but to no avail...

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## sixtus

> 7.62mm vs 10.9mm doesn't mean much if you are just poking a hole in muscle
> Get close and crack their skull and it's game over. 
> Too low is jaw and sinus cavity
> Too high is forehead meat 
> Neither kills the animal so it's worth looking at a diagram


 head shooting ihas its place, including with 22LR. Idea of this project is something to stick into a pigs lungs or chest before it buggars off in the spotlight. 22WMR can work but is marginal and not confidence inspirting following up.

Hmmm seems to be a few different opinions as to usefulness of bodyshots..

Suprised not many recommendations for any jacketed hollowpoints? Most 44 JHP wont expand  I see suggestions for  heavy stuff like 265 XTP and 300 grain noslers on various searches and none of these will be expanding as subs. There are a couple of 44 that will though and get an honest 60-70 cal expansion at 850-950fps impacts. I was thinking pushed to 1050fps they might be okay.

Only one way to find out I guess   :Have A Nice Day:

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## Bill999

Shotgun with buckshot would be the go for that

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## sixtus

Not at 50+ yards it isnt

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