# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  Brass damage ?? Help

## pepper123

Hi folks 
Just been up the range this arvo and I've used half a box of Hornady 168grain (308) . So the issue I have had is the brass is getting damaged by the bolt and 2 of the primers have turned a bluey dusty colour and the bolt is very sticky when unloading. Otherwise it's fine with the Winchester 150grain. The rifle is browning X bolt (308) . Here's a pic aswell 




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## P38

@pepper123

What you have described and shown in your photo is excessive pressure warning signs.

You'd do well to heed these warnings before it ends in tears

The signs are the evidence of gas leakage around the primer, the extractor marks on the head stamp and the sticky bolt lift.

What you haven't mentioned is this factory ammo or reloads.

In the meantime I'd just stick with the 150gr ammo.

Cheers
Pete

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## pepper123

> @pepper123
> 
> What you have described and shown in your photo is excessive pressure warning signs.
> 
> You'd do well to heed these warnings before it ends in tears
> 
> The signs are the evidence of gas leakage around the primer, the extractor marks on the head stamp and the sticky bolt lift.
> 
> What you haven't mentioned is this factory ammo or reloads.
> ...


Hi thanks for the reply there Pete , this ammunition is standard out of the box from hornady . 


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## P38

> Hi thanks for the reply there Pete , this ammunition is standard out of the box from hornady . 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Id be taking it back to whom ever I bought if from in that case as they are not safe to continue shooting in your Rifle.

On a warmer day these 168gr rounds may fail in a catastrophic way causing severe injury to the shooter and/ or anyone nearby.

Can you see any evidence of head spacing issues on the empty cases?

Cheers
Pete

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## Carpe Diem

Awesome Pete exactly what I was thinking and yeah a shot of the front part of the spent cartridge might be important to see and signs of head spacing issues as Pete has also suggested - but yeah classic pressure signs!

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## 300CALMAN

Was it Superformance? They had problems with some 30-06.

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## pepper123

> Was it Superformance? They had problems with some 30-06.


Yes it was I'll get us some more pictures soon . 


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## pepper123

> Awesome Pete exactly what I was thinking and yeah a shot of the front part of the spent cartridge might be important to see and signs of head spacing issues as Pete has also suggested - but yeah classic pressure signs!


I am not sure about the lingo of reloading so not sure what headspacing is but here's some pictures 


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## 300CALMAN

> Yes it was I'll get us some more pictures soon . 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 :O O: 

Some are OK but the leaking primers also look a bit flat. Time to go back to where you purchased them!

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## Gibo

Some good stamps in there

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## pepper123

> Some good stamps in there


Stamps ? 


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## MSL

> Stamps ? 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The raised circles where the brass has extruded into to the ejector pocket

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## Gibo

Yeah sorry mate. This bit

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## Carpe Diem

Hornady putting some extra super into supper performance - I guess!

Faulty load - I'd say they hadn't changed the fill from the previous on the line. A bit of a worry and explains a recent SP 308 box I bought can you show the lot number sticker in a photo and I'll grab mine too to compare ( if I can find it)

CD

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## pepper123

> Yeah sorry mate. This bit
> Attachment 69175


Oh that ! Ha yeah well I'm not that excited about this ammo anymore if it's going to effect my new rifle !! Thanks for pointing that out . 


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## Carpe Diem

Found the box mine was lot 3160564

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## P38

> Oh that ! Ha yeah well I'm not that excited about this ammo anymore if it's going to effect my new rifle !! Thanks for pointing that out . 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 @pepper123

Most of those spent cases show pressure signs, especially extractor marks on the heads of the cases.

Take the remaining back to the supplier and ask Hornady for a please explain.

I'd also get your rifle checked by a gunsmith to ensure there is no issue with headspace etc, especially if it's a new rifle.

Cheers
Pete

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## pepper123

> @pepper123
> 
> Most of those spent cases show pressure signs, especially extractor marks on the heads of the cases.
> 
> Take the remaining back to the supplier and ask Hornady for a please explain.
> 
> I'd also get your rifle checked by a gunsmith to ensure there is no issue with headspace etc, especially if it's a new rifle.
> 
> Cheers
> Pete


Okidoke, so what is headspace just so I understand what to tell them 


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## P38

@pepper

This may help explain head space.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_(firearms)

Cheers
Pete

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## pepper123

> @pepper
> 
> This may help explain head space.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_(firearms)
> 
> Cheers
> Pete


Ok I understand this now , so ...... if there has been some damage done then what can be done to remedy this ? 


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## P38

@pepper123

Can you post some close up photos of the empty 150gr loads just to be sure there are no early signs of excess pressure with this ammo too.

Cheers
Pete

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## P38

> Ok I understand this now , so ...... if there has been some damage done then what can be done to remedy this ? 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A good gunsmith can advise you if there is any damage or if the head space is within specification and what can be done to fix anything they find.

Cheers
Pete

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## pepper123

> @pepper123
> 
> Can you post some close up photos of the empty 150gr loads just to be sure there are no early signs of excess pressure with this ammo too.
> 
> Cheers
> Pete


Here we go , 




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## pepper123

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## veitnamcam

Over max pressure signs, stop firing that ammo.
I use superformance powder in hand-loads and while it it can be great for velocity there is some extreme batch variation and I have ruined a bit of brass as a result. :Sad:

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## zimmer

Check your bolt face for gas etching - a burn ring corresponding to the primer outer circumference.
Potentially a further complaint at the shop you bought the ammo from.

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## P38

> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 @pepper123

We need to see the other end mate.  :Have A Nice Day: 

Cheers
Pete

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## pepper123

> @pepper123
> 
> We need to see the other end mate. 
> 
> Cheers
> Pete






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## P38

> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 @pepper123

Mate there's excess pressure signs in this brass too.

Especially the bottom right hand case and 2nd down on the right have leaking primers and extractor marks in the head stamp.

Others have extractor marks in the head stamp.

I'd take all your ammo back to the supplier along with your rifle and ask for an explanation.

Can you post a photo of your bolt face.

Cheers
Pete

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## outdoorlad

That looks like the same hornady brass? Can we see the Winchester ammo you fired that was ok

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## pepper123

> @pepper123
> 
> Mate there's excess pressure signs in this brass too.
> 
> Especially the bottom right hand case and 2nd down on the right have leaking primers and extractor marks in the head stamp.
> 
> Others have extractor marks in the head stamp.
> 
> I'd take all your ammo back to the supplier along with your rifle and ask for an explanation.
> ...


Please don't tell me it's fucked 


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## P38

> Please don't tell me it's fucked 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 @pepper123

The dark ring you see around your firing pin hole has been etched into the bolt face by high pressure gasses leaking from the primers of the ammo you have shown us.
This is a direct result of the excess pressure signs we have seen in this ammo.

The bolt face may need some attention as a results.

I'd be looking to the ammo supplier to remedy this.

Cheers
Pete

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## P38

Do you have a photo of the Winchester head stamps?

Cheers
Pete

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## outdoorlad

Pepper, see if you clean that black ring off? If it's permanent I'd get it looked at by a gunsmith.

As an aside I had a primer blow a few months ago on a hornady case I had reloaded, it was from a super performance round.

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## veitnamcam

I would be taking the rifle bolt and fired cases and any remaining live ammo back to the point of purchase for a full refund of ammo and replacement/repair of bolt.
Accept nothing less if a factory rifle and factory ammo.

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## pepper123

> Pepper, see if you clean that black ring off? If it's permanent I'd get it looked at by a gunsmith.
> 
> As an aside I had a primer blow a few months ago on a hornady case I had reloaded, it was from a super performance round.


Ok yes I attempted to clean the ring but unfortunately it is etched into the bolt face and cannot be removed by cleaning.  Not happy! 


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## P38

> I would be taking the rifle bolt and fired cases and any remaining live ammo back to the point of purchase for a full refund of ammo and replacement/repair of bolt.
> Accept nothing less if a factory rifle and factory ammo.


What VC said  :Thumbsup: 

Cheers
Pete

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## pepper123

> I would be taking the rifle bolt and fired cases and any remaining live ammo back to the point of purchase for a full refund of ammo and replacement/repair of bolt.
> Accept nothing less if a factory rifle and factory ammo.


Ok yes I will be doing just that tomorrow!! 


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## P38

> Ok yes I attempted to clean the ring but unfortunately it is etched into the bolt face and cannot be removed by cleaning.  Not happy! 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nor should you be happy.

But on a brighter note , no one got injured.  :Thumbsup: 

Let us know how you get on.

Cheers
Pete

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## pepper123

> Nor should you be happy.
> 
> But on a brighter note , no one got injured. 
> 
> Let us know how you get on.
> 
> Cheers
> Pete


Cheers yep will do 


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## zimmer

Not sure if you posted pics of the Winchester 150gr cases (thread now quite long) but I assume from your first posting that those cases showed absolutely no signs of the Hornady issue. In that case, when you go to the gun shop, belabour the fact that the factory Winchester gave no problems whereas the Hornady did. Take the Win brass with you.

And unfortunately (and I hope I am wrong here) be prepared to have them try and fob you off. If possible take a mate with you to just watch and listen.

Sorry, my paranoia coming thru ha ha.

Good luck.

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## Gibo

Where are you based mate, if Tauranga il come with ya if you want

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## pepper123

> Where are you based mate, if Tauranga il come with ya if you want


Ha yea in Tauranga mate , I'll b heading to Hamills Cameron rd around 4.30 today 


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## Gibo

I'll be home by then  :Wtfsmilie:  but Stacey is a good bugger anyway, he wont fuck you around. 

As the guys said take all the fired and unfired ammo and rifle with bolt etc. He will know what has gone down.

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## pepper123

> I'll be home by then  but Stacey is a good bugger anyway, he wont fuck you around. 
> 
> As the guys said take all the fired and unfired ammo and rifle with bolt etc. He will know what has gone down.


Yeah I've got the ammo and the bolt but no rifle so should be interesting 


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## pepper123

> Not sure if you posted pics of the Winchester 150gr cases (thread now quite long) but I assume from your first posting that those cases showed absolutely no signs of the Hornady issue. In that case, when you go to the gun shop, belabour the fact that the factory Winchester gave no problems whereas the Hornady did. Take the Win brass with you.
> 
> And unfortunately (and I hope I am wrong here) be prepared to have them try and fob you off. If possible take a mate with you to just watch and listen.
> 
> Sorry, my paranoia coming thru ha ha.
> 
> Good luck.


Sweet , so I went and dropped it off to hamils on Cameron road and they aren't worried at all about the condition of the bolt and they didn't seem to want to look at the rifle , however they were concerned with the ammunition cases so I have left it with them for now and they are going to be in touch .  I'm still on the fence about my rifle so I might take it to the local gunsmith for a quick once over while things are underway . 


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## MSL

They weren't concerned about the bolt? Are they going to have it fixed?

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## pepper123

> They weren't concerned about the bolt? Are they going to have it fixed?


Nope ? 


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## MSL

Was it like that when you brought it?

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## pepper123

> Was it like that when you brought it?


No 


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## zimmer

Unfortunately the damage to your bolt face, now that the cause is known, and you have ceased using that cause and it won't get worse, is more a cosmetic issue. Still a mighty piss off though. Would gall me considerably and I would want some recognition of my anguish from the ammo supplier.

I have seen heaps of bolt faces like that and worse. Mostly rifles owned by NRA shooters who, in most cases seemed unaware or unconcerned and I would want some recognition of my anguish from the ammo retailer.

In recent years there have also been the issues with Winchester LR primers leaking badly. Some members of this forum were "victims" of those primers.

Real bad cases end up with debris going down the firing pin hole and repairs required to the bolt face and firing pin hole.

Yours shouldn't have got to that stage.

I am not trying to marginalise the issue in your case.

Run it past your gun smith when you visit him.

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## pepper123

> Unfortunately the damage to your bolt face, now that the cause is known, and you have ceased using that cause and it won't get worse, is more a cosmetic issue. Still a mighty piss off though. Would gall me considerably.
> 
> I have seen heaps of bolt faces like that and worse. Mostly rifles owned by NRA shooters who, in most cases seemed unaware or unconcerned.
> 
> In recent years there have also been the issues with Winchester LR primers leaking badly.
> 
> Real bad cases end up with debris going down the firing pin hole. Yours shouldn't have got to that stage.
> 
> Run it past your gun smith when you visit him.


Yea that's what I plan on doing I'll see how it goes 


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## MSL

Your happy to have acquired some etching on your bolt face? I wouldn't be.  It was caused by ammo they sold you so only fair they return it to its previous condition surely

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## pepper123

> Your happy to have acquired some etching on your bolt face? I wouldn't be.  It was caused by ammo they sold you so only fair they return it to its previous condition surely


Yeah well I don't think they are going to somehow unless my gunsmith reccomends that it gets replaced 


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## keneff

> The raised circles where the brass has extruded into to the ejector pocket


I also see some raised rims around the firing-pin indents where primer metal has tied to flow back along the firing pin. Definitely time to look for slightly reduced loads. There can be a price to pay for snug headspacing. I think I see some burnishing on the shoulders of a couple of those cases. Might also be worth taking the rifle to a gunsmith and have him check the chamber with  go no-go gauges? Or return it to the retailer as faulty and have HIM get it sorted.

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## P38

@pepper123

It will be interesting to see if the ammo supplier ( not the retailer) steps up and owns their issue and puts thing right to your satisfaction.

It is a good idea to have your rifle checked out buy a competent Gusmith especialy the head space if only for your peace of mind.

Cheers
Pete

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## pepper123

> @pepper123
> 
> It will be interesting to see if the ammo supplier ( not the retailer) steps up and owns their issue and puts thing right to your satisfaction.
> 
> It is a good idea to have your rifle checked out buy a competent Gusmith especialy the head space if only for your peace of mind.
> 
> Cheers
> Pete


Yea well the guys in the shop ran the vernier over the used brass and unused rounds and they were pretty concerned so I'll b getting a good checkup 


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## Gibo

Was it a brand new rifle? Who is your gunsmith?

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## pepper123

> Was it a brand new rifle? Who is your gunsmith?


Brand new mate yep , had 40 rounds of Winchester through it without a problem then this drama happened with the hornady ! I don't have one in particular but was going to ring that df maisey gunsmith? Unless u can recommend anyone local ? 


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## Gibo

No he should be fine, he will charge though so i sugest you ask Hamils to come up with a plan to make things up to you before spending more of your own coin. I can tell you now Dean will say 'yip, the bolt got some love' and thats all really. Maybe it needs a weld but i doubt it looking at your pics. Id be seeking a replacement bolt myself

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## 7x64

Would put money on it being Hornady lack of quality control, their brass seems to be undersize quite often, which makes it look like excess headspace - seen it in several calibers now. Someone at the range just the other day was having this issue but with 300blk. I've had it in 7x64 (not leaking primers fortunately). Likely your rifle is fine, especially if it looks ok with Winchester. They make good projs, but I'll give their ammo a miss from now on, not that I use factory stuff often fortunately.

Bolt etching is annoying rather than a real mechanical issue, but still hit them up about it. Like others have said it wasn't like that before, so why should you be stuck with it like that now?

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## Cigar

> Yea well the guys in the shop ran the vernier over the used brass and unused rounds and they were pretty concerned so I'll b getting a good checkup 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe overlength cases pinching the projectiles?

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## 6x47

> ..There can be a price to pay for snug headspacing...


All headspacing is snug- by necessity.

Maybe you actually mean something else?

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## keneff

> All headspacing is snug- by necessity.
> 
> Maybe you actually mean something else?


Yep @6x47. Actually meant too- tight headspacing. (Too little?) Thanks for pulling me up.

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## Danny

Is this an X Bolt? Be an interesting outcome for sure, please keep us informed as I would be actually more surprised if it is an ammo issue rather than a mechanical/ rifle issue. As already mentioned hit up the store with questions and write the replies down: questions re who pays from now onwards re gunsmith, who pays for the damage to the bolt, who replaces the ammo etc.
Just ask them mate, tick them boxes. 


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## pepper123

> Is this an X Bolt? Be an interesting outcome for sure, please keep us informed as I would be actually more surprised if it is an ammo issue rather than a mechanical/ rifle issue. As already mentioned hit up the store with questions and write the replies down: questions re who pays from now onwards re gunsmith, who pays for the damage to the bolt, who replaces the ammo etc.
> Just ask them mate, tick them boxes. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes I will keep everyone updated, can I ask why you would be surprised if it is the ammunition that is the problem? And you think it might be the rifle ? Yes it is a new x bolt and went well with the Winchester ammunition 


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## 300CALMAN

> Is this an X Bolt? Be an interesting outcome for sure, please keep us informed as I would be actually more surprised if it is an ammo issue rather than a mechanical/ rifle issue. As already mentioned hit up the store with questions and write the replies down: questions re who pays from now onwards re gunsmith, who pays for the damage to the bolt, who replaces the ammo etc.
> Just ask them mate, tick them boxes. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's an interesting take Danny. It looked like most of his empties were OK with only a few over pressure. Could it be that the head space is too tight in the rifle and ammo within acceptable limits and variability???

OH yes and Winchester shoots fine...

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## Danny

> That's an interesting take Danny. It looked like most of his empties were OK with only a few over pressure. Could it be that the head space is too tight in the rifle and ammo within acceptable limits and variability???
> 
> OH yes and Winchester shoots fine...


Yeh that's my line of thought. 
...the obvious money is on the Hornady ammunition after the readings from the likes of @7x64 and co's experiences however.

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## 300CALMAN

Yes it will be interesting to see. I guess there is a fair bit of variability in factory ammo. I thought though that Browning were generally more than ok with quality control BUT even the best can have a bad day...

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## veitnamcam

I fail to see how to tight a headspace can cause massive overpreassure and primer failure?
I dont size my brass till it is difficult to close the bolt IE negative headspace it is a head pressfit and only have pressure problems when I push too hard or when Hornady change batch of Superformance powder....Had to drop a full grain to get back to safe....they have large batch variation and I would say that is likely the fault here.

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## 300CALMAN

> I fail to see how to tight a headspace can cause massive overpreassure and primer failure?
> I dont size my brass till it is difficult to close the bolt IE negative headspace it is a head pressfit and only have pressure problems when I push too hard or when Hornady change batch of Superformance powder....Had to drop a full grain to get back to safe....they have large batch variation and I would say that is likely the fault here.


Yes that's where I would put my money.

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## Clint Ruin

I have had to deal with a similar case as this some time ago. Steves wholesale were great and had things sorted very fast .

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## pepper123

> I have had to deal with a similar case as this some time ago. Steves wholesale were great and had things sorted very fast .


Was there any repairs needed or anything got replaced in rifle ? 


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## Clint Ruin

Replaced it from memory. 

Steves are good to deal with. Far better then many I could mention .

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## Hunt4life

Did you buy the Browning off Hamills as well as the ammo??
If so, I'd be inclined to hand the whole kit back to Stacey and ask him to sort it all out...expecting a new rifle to be blunt. 
None of this is okay, and while not even indirectly any fault of Stacey or Hamills, the import distributors have an obligation to make this right, in the name of safety if not just fairness. 
Good luck mate and please keep us posted. 


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## Hunt4life

By the way, it wasn't until I got into reloading myself that I realised how much risk I was subjecting myself (and friends/family etc) to, when shooting ammo I'd paid a well known NZ commercial reloader to load up for me. 
We place a LOT of blind trust in ammunition manufacturers/commercial reloaders and my experience ensures I'll never trust anyone else's reloads again. 

I found 6.5x55 brass in with my 7-08!! Luckily the bolt wouldn't close, alerting me to the error. Where did my other 7-08 brass go? Another customer perhaps? I'm pretty sure a 7-08 case will close in a 6.5x55 action. Gulp!

Some cases were over length and should've been trimmed. 
Some loads (different brand brass) were bolt jamming hot and I blamed my shooting position when the rifle jumped almost completely out of my control with some shots...not to mention the sore shoulder. 

Once I started reading up on all the basic rules of metallic reloading, I was shocked at how lucky I (or a mate) was not to have been seriously injured by his complacency. 

Never again

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## pepper123

Okidoke everyone this issue has now been resolved, the rifle was sent to the gunsmith for a check up . His measurements came up really good actually he said the headspace was at a high tolerance which is a good thing apparently and the bolt was nothing out of the ordinary. Both rifle shops that I deal with were also not concerned so there we go . All is good . Free rifle inspection and a free pack of different ammo.  


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## MSL

Haha

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## nor-west

Sorry I wouldn't accept that. I would expect a replacement rifle from one of the parties involved. What would have happened if you had lost an eye or worse?

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## Danny

> Sorry I wouldn't accept that. I would expect a replacement rifle from one of the parties involved. What would have happened if you had lost an eye or worse?


Totally

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## pepper123

> Sorry I wouldn't accept that. I would expect a replacement rifle from one of the parties involved. What would have happened if you had lost an eye or worse?


I know where you guys are coming from but Really I need to stick with the professionals opinions over the internet guys opinions. They think that the rifle is fine and I really can't see a problem myself . The gunsmith was a really experienced guy. 


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## stug

Would you accept it if your car had been permanently damaged by something you had added to it?
Consumer guarantees act should see you right. 
Your choice though, good luck trying to sell your rifle if you ever decide to. The bolt damage will take hundreds of dollars off the resale value, if anyone did decide to buy it.

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## pepper123

> Would you accept it if your car had been permanently damaged by something you had added to it?
> Consumer guarantees act should see you right. 
> Your choice though, good luck trying to sell your rifle if you ever decide to. The bolt damage will take hundreds of dollars off the resale value, if anyone did decide to buy it.


But there is no damage done that was the whole point in getting it looked at and all second hand rifles have etching on the bolt face so I don't see any problem?  The bolt has no damage, the headspace is perfect. The brass has the only damage........... 


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## stug

Your boltface has been etched hasn't it? I have second hand rifle that have shot hundreds of rounds and none have an etched bolt face.  A friend bought a second hand 375 H&H with an etched boltface (that was not as bad as yours), he paid about $400 less than you would expect for the rifle

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## pepper123

> Your boltface has been etched hasn't it? I have second hand rifle that have shot hundreds of rounds and none have an etched bolt face.  A friend bought a second hand 375 H&H with an etched boltface (that was not as bad as yours), he paid about $400 less than you would expect for the rifle


All used browning x bolts have this etching from the precision headspace this is what 2 shops and the gunsmith have told me . And both shops showed me examples of there second hand x bolts . 


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## ROKTOY

> Hi folks 
> Just been up the range this arvo and I've used half a box of Hornady 168grain (308) . So the issue I have had is the brass is getting damaged by the bolt and 2 of the primers have turned a bluey dusty colour and the bolt is very sticky when unloading. Otherwise it's fine with the Winchester 150grain. The rifle is browning X bolt (308) . Here's a pic aswell


I'm curious, You have brass damaged by the bolt, if you continue firing the gun and continue to get damaged brass and more etching on your bolt face, then what? 
My apologies if this has been covered already.

edit to add,
I just googled "browning x bolt, bolt face etching" and the only relevant post I found was the one below and Winchester admitted the fault lay with them and replaced the guys bolt. This was from reloads using Winchester primers so may not be relevant?

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## pepper123

> I'm curious, You have brass damaged by the bolt, if you continue firing the gun and continue to get damaged brass and more etching on your bolt face, then what? 
> My apologies if this has been covered already.


So the problem was a bad load of hornady and the brass was expanding like hell making it difficult to unload. All other ammunition fired since then has been perfect


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## 300CALMAN

Unfortunately they did the typical NZ retailer trick and fobbed you off. They should at least give you a new bolt and have it fitted.

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## veitnamcam

> Unfortunately they did the typical NZ retailer trick and fobbed you off. They should at least give you a new bolt and have it fitted.


Yes you have been played..
Young wipper snapper  

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## MSL

> All used browning x bolts have this etching from the precision headspace this is what 2 shops and the gunsmith have told me . And both shops showed me examples of there second hand x bolts . 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is this a joke? 
'Etching from precision headspace' 
I'll make sure I get the gunsmith to build my next custom with non precision/sloppy  headspace so I don't get bolt etching

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## pepper123

> Is this a joke? 
> 'Etching from precision headspace' 
> I'll make sure I get the gunsmith to build my next custom with non precision/sloppy  headspace so I don't get bolt etching


I'm guessing everyone on this forum are gunsmiths? Lol 


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## MSL

No. Just not naive.

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## wsm junkie

> I'm guessing everyone on this forum are gunsmiths? Lol 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Na, you have missed the point mate, these guys are trying to tell you that etching on the bolt face is not normal but hey as long as you're happy with a box of ammo then best of luck to you.

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## pepper123

> Na, you have missed the point mate, these guys are trying to tell you that etching on the bolt face is not normal but hey as long as you're happy with a box of ammo then best of luck to you.


Lol mate do me a favour and go check out some second hand x bolts . Take a few pics and post them here and if they don't have etching I'll eat a whole couch . Lol .  Should I have dropped off my rifle to you for inspection? 


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## pepper123

> No. Just not naive.


Lol all you internet experts told me to get it properly checked so I did and gave you the answer that I got . So now you're all super gutted that you weren't right . X bolts have etching on the bolt face . Go and look for yourself at some second hand ones lol ...... talk about home internet experts 


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## wsm junkie

Na mate, it'd be a waste of time cos i would've just told u what the others are saying.
Don't need to be a gunsmith to know there shouldn't be etching on your bolt face. Surely if etching wasnt a problem then you would wonder why manufacturers polish the machine marks off the face.

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## pepper123

> Na mate, it'd be a waste of time cos i would've just told u what the others are saying.
> Don't need to be a gunsmith to know there shouldn't be etching on your bolt face. Surely if etching wasnt a problem then you would wonder why manufacturers polish the machine marks off the face.


So every browning x bolt needs to have the bolt replaced?? If you go and see it for yourself that every used one has this etching will all the experts still say this even with the proof right infront of them ?? Lol wtf is going on ..... 


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## veitnamcam

> Lol mate do me a favour and go check out some second hand x bolts . Take a few pics and post them here and if they don't have etching I'll eat a whole couch . Lol .  Should I have dropped off my rifle to you for inspection? 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You have been conned and now have become the internet expert you are wanking on about.

Every second hand xbolt has etching. ba ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
         


Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## pepper123

> You have been conned and now have become the internet expert you are wanking on about.
> 
> Every second hand xbolt has etching ba ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


Go look for yourself dickhead . Your the biggest expert around. Go fucken look instead of sitting behind a computer. You asked to get it checked and so I did pretty thoroughly and now u can't handle that u were wrong u stubborn faggot . I've got actual proof mate and all you have is your know it all shit for brain . Ha ha ha 


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## pepper123

> You have been conned and now have become the internet expert you are wanking on about.
> 
> Every second hand xbolt has etching. ba ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
>          
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


And why the fuck would 2 different shops and a gunsmith all try con me when there is literally nothing in it for them ??  You sir are a super douche know it all lol 


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## stug

WTF? You come on here asking for advice. People give you advice. They aren't trying to con you, they are looking after you. If that is the way you treat help, when you ask for it then go somewhere else.

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## pepper123

> WTF? You come on here asking for advice. People give you advice. They aren't trying to con you, they are looking after you. If that is the way you treat help, when you ask for it then go somewhere else.


Mate I was real grateful and then I came back with answers from the professionals ??? Then I got told I was conned . Wtf is going on 


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## veitnamcam

> And why the fuck would 2 different shops and a gunsmith all try con me when there is literally nothing in it for them ??  You sir are a super douche know it all lol 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bloody brilliant mate🖒

Get some wattles for that couch. 

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## pepper123

> Bloody brilliant mate🖒
> 
> Get some wattles for that couch. 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


Haha yep !!! And you got to smash back a couch if you a wrong how's that lol ? 


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## Gibo

Pepper you need to chill a bit. These guys are not attacking you. The reason these guys are saying you got conned is because not one rifle made gets etching on the bolt unless some gas gets past the primer. That is what the hornady ammo did. 
Can you pm me who checked it

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## pepper123

> Pepper you need to chill a bit. These guys are not attacking you. The reason these guys are saying you got conned is because not one rifle made gets etching on the bolt unless some gas gets past the primer. That is what the hornady ammo did. 
> Can you pm me who checked it


Lol yea I probably do . But the etching is only after being used . If it's hard to believe yous all need to see it for yourselves. There's no point trying to convince me when I've seen it for myself in 2 different shops . 


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## veitnamcam

It didn't strike you as odd that only x bolts apparently get gas cut bolts?

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## stug

> It didn't strike you as odd that only x bolts apparently get gas cut bolts?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


Another good reason not to buy a browning!

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## pepper123

> It didn't strike you as odd that only x bolts apparently get gas cut bolts?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


Bro !! You are a fuckhead 


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## Gibo

> Bro !! You are a fuckhead 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wrong!! You are a fuckhead. Piss off mate and grow up a bit. 

You're basically shitting on the most helpful and generous guy on here.

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## Spudattack

I think I see what they are telling you, and they are probably correct, that the headspace is fine and that the etching is not deep enough to cause any issues with function.

however, your brand new rifle has been damaged by some ammo they sold you, albeit cosmetic, I would still want it rectified.

Put it this way, you buy a brand new car and the dealership sell you a car care kit to clean it, the soap eats your paint and it starts peeling, you take it back and they check it over and tell you "nothing wrong with it mechanically, still safe to drive." They then show you 2 others with the same issue to prove this is normal. A mechanic also tells you it's fine to drive.
Would you be happy?

The thing is they do have something to gain, the gunshop will probably have another damaged x-bolt they will now have to try and sell, along with the ones they showed you. Perhaps points to a bad batch of ammo that they have been selling?

As for the gunsmith, I suspect he was more referring to the fact that the headspace is ok and the damage to the bolt is cosmetic.
I am pretty confident he will not deny that there is damage.


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## wsm junkie

Mate, no offense but the shop has got away with giving you a $40-50 box of ammo as opposed to forking out $800-900 to replace your bolt which you are well within your rights to demand. That is why people are saying you got conned.

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## veitnamcam

> There's no point trying to convince me 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then I suggest you go buy as much superformance ammo as you can and go shoot as much as you can.

Also a gunsmith told me that second hand x bolts like their ammo warm so best you put it on the dash with the heater on on the way to the range.

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## Sideshow

Is this a James Sully thread?

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## pepper123

> Then I suggest you go buy as much superformance ammo as you can and go shoot as much as you can.
> 
> Also a gunsmith told me that second hand x bolts like their ammo warm so best you put it on the dash with the heater on on the way to the range.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


Lol your such a fuckhead . The superformance is mint now . It was a shitty batch ,  .  If anything hornady would be forking out so why would a shop care it's not there fault . 


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## Spudattack

> Lol your such a fuckhead . The superformance is mint now . It was a shitty batch ,  .  If anything hornady would be forking out so why would a shop care it's not there fault . 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which is exactly what everyone has been telling you!
It will be a hassle for the gunshop, as the rifle is still safe they are happy to palm you off and not have to deal with it.

There are none so blind.....


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## veitnamcam

> Lol your such a fuckhead . The superformance is mint now . It was a shitty batch ,  .  If anything hornady would be forking out so why would a shop care it's not there fault . 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I prefer to be called a cunt but whatever you like buddy.
Are you 16?

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## pepper123

> Which is exactly what everyone has been telling you!
> It will be a hassle for the gunshop, as the rifle is still safe they are happy to palm you off and not have to deal with it.
> 
> There are none so blind.....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It doesn't need replacing clown it's a bit of dust etched into some steel it's so petty to ask to get that replaced its pathetic 


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## pepper123

[QUOTE=veitnamcam;600012]I prefer to be called a cunt but whatever you like buddy.
Are you 16?

Sent from my SM-G800Y using 
Fuck off idiot 


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## Gibo

With this attitude im glad your bolt has devalued your rifle and you got tucked, good job

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## Spudattack

> It doesn't need replacing clown it's a bit of dust etched into some steel it's so petty to ask to get that replaced its pathetic 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you even bother to read my post?

I said it's probably safe going on the gunsmiths report, however there is still damage (panel damage on a car is still damage, even though the car may be perfect mechanically) which means your brand new rifle is worth less as a result, if this doesn't bother you then carry on. 

Don't complain when you come to sell it, as people will view an etched bolt face as one that has had a lot of over pressure loads through it that have blown primers, despite how much you tell them it hasn't.

Stop being a dick to people that have tried to help you.


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## pepper123

> With this attitude im glad your bolt has devalued your rifle and you got tucked, good job


Your also a know it all fuck head 


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## Gibo

:Thumbsup: 
I know enough to tell your kind mate

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## pepper123

[QUOTE=Gibo;600029] :Thumbsup: 
I know enough to tell your kind mate[
 Fuckhead 


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## kidmac42

Calm down poppet, you'll give yourself a coronary at this rate.

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## Spudattack

I have a feeling it's just trolling now, who cares anyway

Don't buy a second hand x bolt from Tauranga though guys!


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## Gibo

> I have a feeling it's just trolling now, who cares anyway
> 
> Don't buy a second hand x bolt from Tauranga though guys!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its got a peppered bolt  :Grin:

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## Spudattack

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## pepper123

> I have a feeling it's just trolling now, who cares anyway
> 
> Don't buy a second hand x bolt from Tauranga though guys!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fucken oath it is . Bunch of fucken homos 


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## 25/08IMP

For what it's worth my son and the 2 that I have owned had no marks on the bolt face at all.
And have only shot reloads through them and never popped a primer.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

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## Clint Ruin

From that rather grainy photo of the bolt was it an actual gas cut or a sooty ring that has not actually cut into the metal?

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## gadgetman

> From that rather grainy photo of the bolt was it an actual gas cut or a sooty ring that has not actually cut into the metal?


http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...tml#post595951

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## Clint Ruin

> http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...tml#post595951


Missed that .
Interesting that the gunsmith says its not a issue .

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## Spudattack

> Missed that .
> Interesting that the gunsmith says its not a issue .


It probably isn't from a function and safety point of view, it would be to me from an aesthetic and rifle aspect though!


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## oraki



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## Chop3r

Well that all turned to shit rather quickly

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## 10-Ring

Exactly. 


> From that rather grainy photo of the bolt was it an actual gas cut or a sooty ring that has not actually cut into the metal?


Exactly. I've seen many bolt faces that had a sooty ring on them and that weren't etched. A lot of shooters don't clean their bolt faces and probably never will. 

The retailers that reckon X-Bolt rifles are prone to having etched bolt faces sounds like pure BS to me though.

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## gimp

> Your also a know it all fuck head 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Please take a week off, calm down, realise that people are trying to help you and that the "professionals" in the shops are 
a) incentivised to try avoid rectifying the (cosmetic) damage that the faulty ammunition they sold you has caused to your rifle, and 
b) are by no means more knowledgeable than many members here


Also homophobic slurs are a no-go, bump the brakes on that one right away.

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## gadgetman

> If anything hornady would be forking out so why would a shop care it's not there fault .


The consumers guarantee act puts the onus on the retailer to sort out the issue with the customer. It is then up to the retailer to deal with their supplier.

https://www.consumerprotection.govt....uarantees-act/




> be of acceptable quality (durable, safe, fit for purpose, free from defects, acceptable in look or finish)


Consumer Guarantees Act 1993 No 91 (as at 01 March 2017), Public Act Contents – New Zealand Legislation

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## P38

> I'm guessing everyone on this forum are gunsmiths? Lol 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 @pepper123

Mate I gave you my best advise based on being a Professional Engineer (Toolmaker) with many associated engineering qualifications to my name including a very good knowledge and understanding of fits and finishes and metallurgy, a Firearms Collector and a Reloader with over 40 years experience, based on the evidence you presented me with.

And while I respect the opinion your chosen gunsmith has given you based on examining your rifle, something which I haven't, I do agree with the general opinion given here.

The etching on the bolt face is not normal and while it maybe cosmetic it will have an effect on the resale value of this firearm as it indicates that the rifle has been exposed to over pressure loads at some stage during its life.

And whoever told you "All X-Bolts have etched bolt faces due to the precision head spacing" plainly has very little knowledge of what causes this etching.

There is no question in my mind that will diminish the resale value of your rifle.

The guys in the gun stores are salespeople, I'm an engineer so it would be expected that we would differ in our opinions
 based on our knowledge, experience and perspective.

Especially if a liability exists.

That said if your happy with the response you have been given from the gunshop and the box of ammo then End of Story as that's your business.

Calling people here that have tried to help and that I respect names is just mean spirited and way out of line.

For that alone I won't be willing to help you out any more.

Cheers
Pete

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## pepper123

> @pepper123
> 
> Mate I gave you my best advise based on being a Professional Engineer (Toolmaker) with many associated engineering qualifications to my name including a very good knowledge and understanding of fits and finishes and metallurgy, a Firearms Collector and a Reloader with over 40 years experience, based on the evidence you presented me with.
> 
> And while I respect the opinion your chosen gunsmith has given you based on examining your rifle, something which I haven't, I do agree with the general opinion given here.
> 
> The etching on the bolt face is not normal and while it maybe cosmetic it will have an effect on the resale value of this firearm as it indicates that the rifle has been exposed to over pressure loads at some stage during its life.
> 
> And whoever told you "All X-Bolts have etched bolt faces due to the precision head spacing" plainly has very little knowledge of what causes this etching.
> ...


Yea a qualified this and a qualified that like everyone else . I didn't ask for your help . It was all good until everyone made out like the rifle was a throwaway. Then obviously all the experts have piped up . Stating there huge qualifications over a bit of etching on a bolt . I couldn't give a fuck all I wanted to know if the rifle was ok. I'm not going to go out of my way to get a replacement bolt over a bit of etching . 


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## Gibo

You did ask for our help and took it until we told you something you couldnt comprehend. 
I dont rate your chances of getting anymore value or help from this forum

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## pepper123

> You did ask for our help and took it until we told you something you couldnt comprehend. 
> I dont rate your chances of getting anymore value or help from this forum


Bullshit you couldn't handle that the shops and gunsmith gave out proper information not like the muppet go get a new bolt comments 


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## WallyR

@pepper123

Mate - I've picked up a lot of useful information from the majority of the posters here.
I have an Omark 308 single shot target rifle that exhibits a 'smoke ring' around the firing pin.
Having read of the 'etching' problem that has been discussed above - a lot of the comments above, are throwaway lines that are purely to display the posters preference for X brand of rifle/firearm and their favourite calibre - are usually tongue in cheek replies - not always directed at you personally.
Don't worry buddy, I've been on the receiving end of 'being put in my place' by some of the Good Buggers above.
Let it go mate - these guys were offering various explanations for similar events they've seen or experienced.
Plus there'll be a certain amount of BS in the commentaries, which they hope will 'encourage' you to sell it cheap on the 'Buy, Sell, Swap' forum.
That way they'll get a near new cheapie and a big smile for pulling the wool over your eyes  :ORLY: 
Bye the bye - the 'smoke ring' around my firing pin?
Years of shooting and poor cleaning practise - scratched the smoke ring with the tip of my finger nail - no etching.
Several of the senior members here are practising gunsmiths and retailers, so their input is designed to help a 'newbie' make a decision on a course of action.
A second opinion always helps - you've received 10 pages of assistance from a lot of experienced people.
Rubbishing them and indulging in name calling will block this very excellent resource from helping you out in future  :Oh Noes:

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## pepper123

> @pepper123
> 
> Mate - I've picked up a lot of useful information from the majority of the posters here.
> I have an Omark 308 single shot target rifle that exhibits a 'smoke ring' around the firing pin.
> Having read of the 'etching' problem that has been discussed above - a lot of the comments above, are throwaway lines that are purely to display the posters preference for X brand of rifle/firearm and their favourite calibre - are usually tongue in cheek replies - not always directed at you personally.
> Don't worry buddy, I've been on the receiving end of 'being put in my place' by some of the Good Buggers above.
> Let it go mate - these guys were offering various explanations for similar events they've seen or experienced.
> Plus there'll be a certain amount of BS in the commentaries, which they hope will 'encourage' you to sell it cheap on the 'Buy, Sell, Swap' forum.
> That way they'll get a near new cheapie and a big smile for pulling the wool over your eyes 
> ...


Absolutely mate and I agree with some of what you're saying but a lot the opinions are rubbish and trying to get a bite and acting like know it all kids so that's how I'm treating them . They can't handle that I haven't made a huge scene in the shops demanding some full replacement over a bit of bolt etching even after 3 professionals have given it the thumbs up .  It's a load of crap to me so I'll just continue to treat these know it Alls how they behave 


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## 10-Ring

To the OP, I can understand your frustration at some of the replies on this thread. There is no need for anybody to criticise you for not demanding a new bolt. You can take their advice or leave it as it's entirely up to you what you want to do about it. Most on here however, have posted with a genuine concern for your issue.

If you have some minor etching of your bolt face and you decide at some stage to sell the rifle it may or may not knock the asking price down some. That's whether any potential buyer ever noticed the etching in the first place. Even so, the honest thing to do is to make it known to said potential buyer and explain what caused it.

Personally, as long as it was minor, it wouldn't bother me when buying a rifle. Also, I keep my rifles for at least twenty years on average and don't buy rifles to sell. Your mileage may vary - as the saying goes.

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## pepper123

> To the OP, I can understand your frustration at some of the replies on this thread. There is no need for anybody to criticise you for not demanding a new bolt. You can take their advice or leave it as it's entirely up to you what you want to do about it. Most on here however, have posted with a genuine concern for your issue.
> 
> If you have some minor etching of your bolt face and you decide at some stage to sell the rifle it may or may not knock the asking price down some. That's whether any potential buyer ever noticed the etching in the first place. Even so, the honest thing to do is to make it known to said potential buyer and explain what caused it.
> 
> Personally, as long as it was minor, it wouldn't bother me when buying a rifle. Also, I keep my rifles for at least twenty years on average and don't buy rifles to sell. Your mileage may vary - as the saying goes.


Too easy mate this is basically how I feel about the situation. 


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## Dougie

Thanks for the Friday arvo smoko entertainment, just know that a room full of mature engineers have had a good belly laugh at your expense 

Pretty much everyone has firearms too, no Brownings though? 


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## Dougie

> @pepper123
> 
> Mate I gave you my best advise based on being a Professional Engineer (Toolmaker) with many associated engineering qualifications to my name including a very good knowledge and understanding of fits and finishes and metallurgy, a Firearms Collector and a Reloader with over 40 years experience, based on the evidence you presented me with.
> 
> And while I respect the opinion your chosen gunsmith has given you based on examining your rifle, something which I haven't, I do agree with the general opinion given here.
> 
> The etching on the bolt face is not normal and while it maybe cosmetic it will have an effect on the resale value of this firearm as it indicates that the rifle has been exposed to over pressure loads at some stage during its life.
> 
> And whoever told you "All X-Bolts have etched bolt faces due to the precision head spacing" plainly has very little knowledge of what causes this etching.
> ...


Pete, when can I buy you that well deserved beer? 


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## Willie

> I prefer to be called a cunt but whatever you like buddy.
> Are you 16?
> 
> 
> Cam are you asking for consent or something? 
> 
> Yup this has been an entertaining journey to read indeed, thank you!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


.

----------


## 300CALMAN

> Thanks for the Friday arvo smoko entertainment, just know that a room full of mature engineers have had a good belly laugh at your expense 
> 
> Pretty much everyone has firearms too, no Brownings though? 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes this was far more entertaining than I ever expected! Someone should change their (full) nappy now and go back to pulling the wings of flies or whatever it was they were doing before they found this forum.

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## pepper123

> I have a feeling it's just trolling now, who cares anyway
> 
> Don't buy a second hand x bolt from Tauranga though guys!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Or any second hand x bolt like the thread gibo started proves they all have it and according to the huge list of experts they now have the proof that all x bolts have this etching which means every single x bolt ever produced will need to be returned to get new bolts lol !!!!! 


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## Spudattack

> Or any second hand x bolt like the thread gibo started proves they all have it and according to the huge list of experts they now have the proof that all x bolts have this etching which means every single x bolt ever produced will need to be returned to get new bolts lol !!!!! 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Those in that thread just had a carbon ring, your answer when you were asked if it was just a carbon ring and not cut into the metal you said that it was cut into the steel.

Therefore if it is just a carbon ring like those posted then you brought this on yourself by supplying false information.

Grow up!


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## pepper123

> Those in that thread just had a carbon ring, your answer when you were asked if it was just a carbon ring and not cut into the metal you said that it was cut into the steel.
> 
> Therefore if it is just a carbon ring like those posted then you brought this on yourself by supplying false information.
> 
> Grow up!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Na fuck of mate handle the proof 


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## Spudattack

> Na fuck of mate handle the proof 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think you lack basic understanding and reasoning.

What proof, you told us it was etched into the bolt not just a carbon ring.

Go and cry to someone who cares.




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## pepper123

> I think you lack basic understanding and reasoning.
> 
> What proof, you told us it was etched into the bolt not just a carbon ring.
> 
> Go and cry to someone who cares.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep etched into the steel and so are the ones in the pics . Nope Take it on the chin buddy the proof is right infront of you 


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## Spudattack

> Yep etched into the steel and so are the ones in the pics . Nope Take it on the chin buddy the proof is right infront of you 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think you know what etched means!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Go find a dictionary!


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## pepper123

> I don't think you know what etched means!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
> 
> Go find a dictionary!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure do mate . They even say they cleaned them and that's what's left . Take it on the chin buddy proof is right there 


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## Spudattack

> Sure do mate . They even say they cleaned them and that's what's left . Take it on the chin buddy proof is right there 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You are seriously stupid 

Nobody cares what you do with your fucked x bolt now, go and play with it!

You can reply if you like but I am done with arguing with someone who can't think!


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## pepper123

> You are seriously stupid 
> 
> Nobody cares what you do with your fucked x bolt now, go and play with it!
> 
> You can reply if you like but I am done with arguing with someone who can't think!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry buddy about the cold hard proof atleast we both know u were all wrong and u can thank gibo for setting up the kick in the nuts for u all . Lol yep played with it yesterday and went fucking awesome. 


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## gimp

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS

----------

