# Firearms and Shooting > Firearms, Optics and Accessories >  Calibre and Barrel Length Decision......

## Maxx

I am about to take the plunge and buy my first plastic and silver rifle. It will also be the first that has a suppressor.... It will be a Sako Finnlight, and all I now need to decide is whether to get a .260 or .308...and what will largely determine that is which will allow the barrel to be shortened while giving up the least performance? I already have a .260 and .308 so am familiar with them, but haven't bothered myself with the implications of chopping them in the past, hence this question. And I expect this rifle to do everything, from bush hunting to as far as it can reasonably reach.

Thanks in anticipation.

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## 25/08IMP

I wouldn't go any shorter than factory with the .260 as its already 20" and to get the best out of it I would rather have a 22" barrel.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

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## Gibo

Yip and go 16" with 308. I have both , 16" 308 with 165 BTs doing 2700 so sweet out to 500 and 21" 260 with 143 eldx doing 2820 so sweet to 700 odd based on the old 1000 ft lbs of energy theory. 

If you want short I'd go 308 of the two suggested.

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## Mathias

If you are going to chop up a Finnlight with the factory fluted barrel, then maybe you should buy the stainless synthetic version 85 and chop it. Its cheaper to buy for a start.

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## outdoorlad

> If you are going to chop up a Finnlight with the factory fluted barrel, then maybe you should buy the stainless synthetic version 85 and chop it. Its cheaper to buy for a start.


+1 and get it in 308

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## Maxx

> If you are going to chop up a Finnlight with the factory fluted barrel, then maybe you should buy the stainless synthetic version 85 and chop it. Its cheaper to buy for a start.


At the risk of sounding ignorant, can I ask why? Something to do with cutting the barrel back into the fluted section? And/or are you telling me the only difference between a Finnlight and S/S 85 is the flutes, and it would be better to get and 85, chop the barrel, and then flute that if so inclined?

TIA.

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## trooper90

Helluva a lot cheaper to buy a T3 and chop that...spend the extra $$$ on optics just my 2¢ :-)

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## veitnamcam

> Helluva a lot cheaper to buy a T3 and chop that...spend the extra $$$ on optics just my 2¢ :-)


Some people HATE rifles you cant topload.....just saying.

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## trooper90

Good point right there!

Sent from my HP 8 using Tapatalk

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## Mathias

> At the risk of sounding ignorant, can I ask why? Something to do with cutting the barrel back into the fluted section? And/or are you telling me the only difference between a Finnlight and S/S 85 is the flutes, and it would be better to get and 85, chop the barrel, and then flute that if so inclined?
> 
> TIA.


Was referring that it could be a cost saving by buying the 85 SS if shortening. You could probably buy & do the surgery plus put money towards the suppressor with the difference in cost between the two rifles. However if you intended to flute it, then the advantage is lost.

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## 10-Ring

> At the risk of sounding ignorant, can I ask why? Something to do with cutting the barrel back into the fluted section? And/or are you telling me the only difference between a Finnlight and S/S 85 is the flutes, and it would be better to get and 85, chop the barrel, and then flute that if so inclined?
> 
> TIA.


I don't know whether it's feasible to shorten a barrel down to the fluted section. I had a 20" .308 Sako fluted barrel shortened to 18" and the chap at DPT said something along the lines of it being doable because the flutes had not been reached at 18".

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## 10-Ring

> Helluva a lot cheaper to buy a T3 and chop that...spend the extra $$$ on optics just my 2¢ :-)


That may be the most economically sensible thing to do but buying a rifle isn't always about economics for many of us. A concept many tight arses find hard to get their heads around. You also get some nice features with a Sako over a T3.

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## Nick-D

Gimp seems to do plenty well with a 20 inch 260. 27-2800 should still be achievable with 140's no? go with the factory length and whack a suppressor on the end. Lop of an inch is you fancy it should still have you clear of the flutes. My rifle is an 18" plus can, honestly I dont think an extra 1 or 2 inches would make any practical difference in the bush

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## SlimySquirrel

> Some people HATE rifles you cant topload.....just saying.


I thought the new T3X is supposed to have a bigger port for single feeding?

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## Nick-D

Yeah you still cant top of the mag though

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## veitnamcam

> I thought the new T3X is supposed to have a bigger port for single feeding?





> Yeah you still cant top of the mag though


Yea that, if you feed the chamber from the mag as most would and dont fire you then have to drop the mag and reload the mag close the bolt and re insert the mag vs extract live round and stuff it down with your hand into the mag and close the bolt on an empty chamber.

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## Timmay

^ what he said, its a right pain in the ass. I've been a long time Tikka owner as a hunting rifle, but I've finally seen the light.

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## Shearer

I must be the odd one out here. I own two T3s. When I go hunting I chamber a round and put the safety on. If I see game, I disengage the safety and shoot it. If I don't, I unload the rifle at the end of the hunt. If I was a position that I did"t trust the safety (clambering around sketchy country maybe) I disengage the safety, squeeze the trigger and close the bolt (decocked on a live round). Pretty safe I recon. In order for it to fire the bolt would have to be lifted and closed again which is pretty hard to do accidently. When I am ready to start hunting again I lift the bolt, close it, and engage the safety. Done.
Even the rifles I can top load from I never actually find a need to.

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## veitnamcam

> I must be the odd one out here. I own two T3s. When I go hunting I chamber a round and put the safety on. If I see game, I disengage the safety and shoot it. If I don't, I unload the rifle at the end of the hunt. If I was a position that I did"t trust the safety (clambering around sketchy country maybe) I disengage the safety, squeeze the trigger and close the bolt (decocked on a live round). Pretty safe I recon. In order for it to fire the bolt would have to be lifted and closed again which is pretty hard to do accidently. When I am ready to start hunting again I lift the bolt, close it, and engage the safety. Done.
> Even the rifles I can top load from I never actually find a need to.


Each to their own but I will have an empty chamber when clambering around/threw shit....and so will anyone behind me!

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## Shearer

> Each to their own but I will have an empty chamber when clambering around/threw shit....and so will anyone behind me!


Yeah. Different story if I am hunting with someone else. Chamber is always empty until I'm shooting.

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## BSA270

Have just got my Tikka T3x Superlite back from DPT. Darren shortened it to 16". This model has the factory fluted barrel. He said it was no problem to do it when I asked it. Saved approx.$250-$300 by not having to get it fluted by a gunsmith. I put 2 extra modules in it. The first one is their stainless blast module. Overall length is the same as standard barrel was.

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## SlimySquirrel

Interesting. I top load mine all the time.

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## veitnamcam

> Interesting. I top load mine all the time.


Mind uploading a vid? I cant topload mine but I am not very clever.

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## SlimySquirrel

Nor am I. I get what you mean now. I can't load em in the mag from the top but can single feed it. My mistake!

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## stevodog

Hey Shearer, is there a safety issue with a decocked firing pin resting against a live round? I know its common practice lowering hammer down on lever rifles and pistols with one in the chamber.
Someone told me they can go off with a  solid bump on the butt...don't know if its true or urban/rural myth.

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## Danny

> Hey Shearer, is there a safety issue with a decocked firing pin resting against a live round? I know its common practice lowering hammer down on lever rifles and pistols with one in the chamber.
> Someone told me they can go off with a  solid bump on the butt...don't know if its true or urban/rural myth.


Lowering the hammer on a lever action be done without the trigger pulled through the entire action as it will be sitting rested against the firing pin. Where as the safety option on many Rossi etc it is safe and it can't be bumped closed. Hard to explain but very simple in principle. I like half cock as it's a deliberate action to close and I can also see where a mates at with his action if he's with me on a hunt. When the boots closed God only knows if there's one in or magazine only. 
I use safety only when I'm ready or a shot is expected. 
Tikka are not conducive to my line of likes. Top feeding and unloading from the top is another kick in the Tikka tyres. 

The 16" above sounds good.

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## 10-Ring

> Hey Shearer, is there a safety issue with a decocked firing pin resting against a live round? I know its common practice lowering hammer down on lever rifles and pistols with one in the chamber.
> Someone told me they can go off with a  solid bump on the butt...don't know if its true or urban/rural myth.


Apparently possible. Never tried it and don't want to go thumping my rifle on the ground even on an uncharged but primed case to find out.

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## northdude

It takes a pretty decent hit to get a primer to go off in my experience anyway when hunting alone which is most of the time that's how I carry mine decocked on a round in the chamber havnt had one go off in 34 years so far not to say it couldn't happen tho

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## Shearer

> Hey Shearer, is there a safety issue with a decocked firing pin resting against a live round? I know its common practice lowering hammer down on lever rifles and pistols with one in the chamber.
> Someone told me they can go off with a  solid bump on the butt...don't know if its true or urban/rural myth.


I have to admit to not testing it with the T3, but I would be VERY surprised if you could make it fire just by dropping or banging it. Some of the old military 303's were bad for that sort of thing and I think that's where the idea of it being unsafe came from. Not convinced you could make a modern rifle fire accidentally like that. The main reason I don't hunt with the chamber empty (unless I am with someone else) is the noise it makes loading. Enough too alert an animal and force a hurried shot.

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## Mathias

> I have to admit to not testing it with the T3, but I would be VERY surprised if you could make it fire just by dropping or banging it. Some of the old military 303's were bad for that sort of thing and I think that's where the idea of it being unsafe came from. Not convinced you could make a modern rifle fire accidentally like that. The main reason I don't hunt with the chamber empty (unless I am with someone else) is the noise it makes loading. Enough too alert an animal and force a hurried shot.


The real issue is rifles that have an exposed cocking piece or indicator that is directly part of or connected to the firing pin. A bloody good whack on these and it will likely discharge and that is just plain unsafe!

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## Gibo

> The real issue is rifles that have an exposed cocking piece or indicator that is directly part of or connected to the firing pin. A bloody good whack on these and it will likely discharge and that is just plain unsafe!


Like a Tikka?

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## Mathias

> Like a Tikka?


A Tikka is under cover (plastic) but does have an indicator, though this is not really exposed. I personally just don't condone the practice.

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## Shearer

> The real issue is rifles that have an exposed cocking piece or indicator that is directly part of or connected to the firing pin. A bloody good whack on these and it will likely discharge and that is just plain unsafe!


Good point.
The T3's cocking indicator is completely hidden under the bolt shroud when decocked.

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## stevodog

I see, thanks for highlighting these points. I could never quite decipher this story which was most probably told to me while twisting tops off brown bottles a wee while ago.
Sorry for thread highjack maxx...keep the 260 std or chop and can the 308 bro.

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## NZVarminter

leaving a live round in the chamber on a decocked bolt IS NOT SAFE

Regardless of whether the back end of the firing pin assembly is exposed or not, there is still a risk of discharge as the pin is sitting on the primer and under spring tension, so a heavy bump on the stock can be sufficient to bounce the firing pin causing a discharge.

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## Shearer

I had assumed that if the rifle was decocked the spring was NOT under tension???
Hopefully someone will try it to see if it will actually happen. :Have A Nice Day:

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## Kiwi Greg

> I had assumed that if the rifle was decocked the spring was NOT under tension???
> Hopefully someone will try it to see if it will actually happen.


Easy enough, prepped case with primer *ONLY* in it & full your boots...

BTW primers are pretty loud so be careful where you do this  :Wink: 

Oh & naturally keep the pointy end away from you  :ORLY:

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## Sideshow

> I had assumed that if the rifle was decocked the spring was NOT under tension???
> Hopefully someone will try it to see if it will actually happen.


I'm with Shearer on this.

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## Friwi

The de cocked firing pin will still be  in a very strong tension on most bolt guns. Good luck trying to bounce the the rifle hard enough to get enough energy for the firing pin to travel back (at all) and forth to strike the primer.

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## JWB

> I must be the odd one out here. I own two T3s. When I go hunting I chamber a round and put the safety on. If I see game, I disengage the safety and shoot it. If I don't, I unload the rifle at the end of the hunt. If I was a position that I did"t trust the safety (clambering around sketchy country maybe) I disengage the safety, squeeze the trigger and close the bolt (decocked on a live round). Pretty safe I recon. In order for it to fire the bolt would have to be lifted and closed again which is pretty hard to do accidently. When I am ready to start hunting again I lift the bolt, close it, and engage the safety. Done.
> Even the rifles I can top load from I never actually find a need to.


 It seems as though you have acquired a couple of bad habits and haven't thought through what is actually going on. Firstly, calling a trigger blocking lever a safety is where the head problem starts. A mechanical device is not a safety. If you think that a firearm is safe after engaging a mechanical block then you trust that it won't fire and will end up pointing it in all sorts of unlikely directions. The only safe rifle is an empty one that you treat as loaded at all times. The safety for a firearm is what is happening between a shooters ears. 
A primer is a delicate explosive device, designed to be detonated by having the compound crushed between the anvil and the cup by the impact of the firing pin. A de-cocked firing pin spring is always under compression. De-cock your bolt when it's out of your rifle, then try pushing the firing pin back flush with the bolt face if you doubt this.
It is the inertia of the firing pin assembly that could allow it to travel away from the primer under the impact of a fall or being dropped, and return under spring pressure with enough force to set off the primer. Some firearm designs have a floating firing pin, some times held away from the primer by a light spring. These floating pins are in turn hit by a hammer which energises them. Your Tikka in not made this way. When you close your de-cocked bolt on a live round your firing pin is sitting on a live primer, under pressure, waiting for a jolt or knock to energise it.
Firearms safety is about good habits.

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## northdude

> I had assumed that if the rifle was decocked the spring was NOT under tension???
> Hopefully someone will try it to see if it will actually happen.


ok tried it today with a primed case spent just under an hour and couldn't get it to go off I would of nearly fuked my scope and rifle if I got rougher with it

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## Shearer

> It seems as though you have acquired a couple of bad habits and haven't thought through what is actually going on. Firstly, calling a trigger blocking lever a safety is where the head problem starts.* A mechanical device is not a safety.* If you think that a firearm is safe after engaging a mechanical block then you trust that it won't fire and will end up pointing it in all sorts of unlikely directions. The only safe rifle is an empty one that you treat as loaded at all times.* The safety for a firearm is what is happening between a shooters ears*. 
> A primer is a delicate explosive device, designed to be detonated by having the compound crushed between the anvil and the cup by the impact of the firing pin. A de-cocked firing pin spring is always under compression. *De-cock your bolt when it's out of your rifle, then try pushing the firing pin back flush with the bolt face if you doubt this.*
> It is the inertia of the firing pin assembly that could allow it to travel away from the primer under the impact of a fall or being dropped, and return under spring pressure with enough force to set off the primer. Some firearm designs have a floating firing pin, some times held away from the primer by a light spring. These floating pins are in turn hit by a hammer which energises them. Your Tikka in not made this way. When you close your de-cocked bolt on a live round your firing pin is sitting on a live primer, under pressure, waiting for a jolt or knock to energise it.
> Firearms safety is about good habits.


Seems to me you comment is full of contradiction. 
Mechanical safety's DO work. Try and fire my T3 with the safety engaged. I have known shooters to nearly straighten their trigger trying to shoot game with the safety on. Americans firearm manufacturers condone their safety devices and in the liability capital of the world, they would be stupid to make one that doesn't work. The only reason it will not work is if it is not engaged.
I am VERY conscious of where I point a firearm - loaded or not, and having (and using) a safety has not and does not alter that fact.
If it is not possible to push the firing pin back when a rifle is decocked, how is the inertia from a fall going to push it back enough to detonate the primer???
You are correct. Firearms safety is about good habits, not misguided paranoia.

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## JWB

> Seems to me you comment is full of contradiction. 
> Mechanical safety's DO work. Try and fire my T3 with the safety engaged. I have known shooters to nearly straighten their trigger trying to shoot game with the safety on. Americans firearm manufacturers condone their safety devices and in the liability capital of the world, they would be stupid to make one that doesn't work. The only reason it will not work is if it is not engaged.
> I am VERY conscious of where I point a firearm - loaded or not, and having (and using) a safety has not and does not alter that fact.
> If it is not possible to push the firing pin back when a rifle is decocked, how is the inertia from a fall going to push it back enough to detonate the primer???
> You are correct. Firearms safety is about good habits, not misguided paranoia.


 Mechanical locks work when they leave the factory. They will work until they don't work. Murphy is a bastard! Take risks with your own safety by all means, but be considerate when among others.

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## Shearer

> Mechanical locks work when they leave the factory. They will work until they don't work. Murphy is a bastard! Take risks with your own safety by all means, but be considerate when among others.


Thanks, I will. As I said in a previous post, when hunting with others I always have an empty chamber until I am ready to fire. This is not because I feel how I normally hunt is unsafe, rather it is for the other persons peace of mind. I would expect the same in return.

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## stevodog

Interesting...I'm happy to resign that one to a theoretical high road. Thanks Northdude, I hope your scope reticles aren't shaking around loose after your testing.
How about the old chestnut of the "half cock" bolt position. Safe? I find that when moved down a little with the trigger pulled it will slam fire. I think this could inadvertently happen in the bush and would only use it in combo action with the safety on.

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## stevodog

Combination

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## northdude

Should I stop using the hand brake on my car

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## Friwi

As long as your car is pointed in safe direction ;-)

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## stug

NZ is the only country in the world that uses a "half cock". Every where else in the world uses the safety. 
To solve the issue just get a Blaser, the decocker does just that, decocks the firing pin.

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## sneeze

> NZ is the only country in the world that uses a "half cock".


And as most rifles  fully cock on opening we cant even get the name right.

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## Maxx

I've had some advice from more than one person that I should set aside my Sako obsession, and consider one of NZHunter's carbon stocked, T3 based builds. So interested (and appreciative) of any informed views on that?

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## Friwi

You get the weight and performances of the sako at a much cheaper price.
Just start with a factory fluted tikka( cheapest weight/price, and cheaper than a carbon barrel or a barrel fluted afterward), get a carbon stock on it and you can get the bolt fluted if You want. Barrel cut at whatever suit your boat , suppressed eventually, and the rest of the money can go toward a very good scope and the amo.

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## Gibo

If you already own a sako just get a carbon f stock for it

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## Pengy

Talking of stocks........

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## Gibo

> Talking of stocks........


Not yet  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Maxx

> If you already own a sako just get a carbon f stock for it


Yes, I have a handful of them, but none currently stainless.

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## veitnamcam

> Yes, I have a handful of them, but none currently stainless.


If you already have a few Sakos I doubt you will be happy with a Tikka....or maybe thats just me.

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## Gibo

> Yes, I have a handful of them, but none currently stainless.


Get a carbon stock and get the rifle coated for about $250. The coating is pretty hardy, better than blueing anyway. Why do you need it to be ss to get a carbon fibre?

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## shift14

> Yes, I have a handful of them, but none currently stainless.


Search Tikka carbon stock on TM, and have a look. They're bloody nice in the flesh, send the barreled action to him and he'll bed it for you

B

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## shift14

> I am about to take the plunge and buy my first plastic and silver rifle. It will also be the first that has a suppressor.... It will be a Sako Finnlight, and all I now need to decide is whether to get a .260 or .308...and what will largely determine that is which will allow the barrel to be shortened while giving up the least performance? I already have a .260 and .308 so am familiar with them, but haven't bothered myself with the implications of chopping them in the past, hence this question. And I expect this rifle to do everything, from bush hunting to as far as it can reasonably reach.
> 
> Thanks in anticipation.


There are better options IMO if you want to go Sako, than shortening a Finlite or an '85 Hunter.

This is THE nicest Sako I've handled, available in NZ and in .308. No need to chop, and easily threaded by removing the factory open sights and blanking the threaded holes that are exposed with grub screws.
Medium profile factory fluted barrel, nice soft touch stock, points beautifully.



A competent gunsmith should be able thread it without shortening it, and fit an 'invisible' thread protector that will allow you to refit the factory sights if you decide to sell it down the track.

I'm sure @10-Ring will chime in if you want load data etc.

B

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## Maxx

> Get a carbon stock and get the rifle coated for about $250. The coating is pretty hardy, better than blueing anyway. Why do you need it to be ss to get a carbon fibre?


Simple answer is I had assumed that coatings do not offer any additional protection to the bore, hence the inclination to go ss.

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## Friwi

You are supposed to maintain your weapon...
The black bear from sako is very nice but might be a bit heavy for what you want to do?

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## Kiwi Greg

> You are supposed to maintain your firearm...
> The black bear from sako is very nice but might be a bit heavy for what you want to do?


Its extremely easy to get rust in/on a chrome moly barrel/action whilst hunting in NZ for a few days  :Sad:

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## Friwi

Specially when hunting in Stewart island...
How ever I got two customers sakos this week, a 222 L461 and an A2 in 243, both with original barrels and their bore where in immaculate conditions inside.

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## mikee

> Its extremely easy to get rust in/on a chrome moly barrel/action whilst hunting in NZ for a few days


one of mine (and you know which one) rusts in the bloody gun safe and yet none of the other rifles / shotguns do

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## 10-Ring

The bore on chrome moly barrels take a little extra effort, like a minute or two. In damp conditions just pull a lightly coated oil patch through the barrel before beddy byes and a clean patch through in the morning. Nothing that hunters haven't being doing for over a hundred years. Stainless will rust too but not as fast as CM. I've seen a few SS bores that were pitted; it's not the same stainless as the kitchen sink is made of. 

Personally, I would never base the purchase of a rifle on whether it's stainless or not.

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## 10-Ring

> There are better options IMO if you want to go Sako, than shortening a Finlite or an '85 Hunter.
> 
> This is THE nicest Sako I've handled, available in NZ and in .308. No need to chop, and easily threaded by removing the factory open sights and blanking the threaded holes that are exposed with grub screws.
> Medium profile factory fluted barrel, nice soft touch stock, points beautifully.
> 
> 
> 
> A competent gunsmith should be able thread it without shortening it, and fit an 'invisible' thread protector that will allow you to refit the factory sights if you decide to sell it down the track.
> 
> ...



I bought a Black Bear based on it's handling - preferred it to the Finnlight because of this. Super accurate too and so is a mate's one. A little heavier than a Finnlight but not a huge amount more.

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## WillB

I am rethinking my attitude to weight having recently gone from tikka to a Blaser. It's 500 g heavier (4.6kg v 4.1 all up). It's easier to shoot. Have yet to take it on an extended walk but was up and down some steep hills yesterday and can't say I really noticed a difference.

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