# Firearms and Shooting > Firearms, Optics and Accessories >  AR15 pending rule changes?

## Gemini

Obviously not a political topic....!!!

But can anyone bring me and others up to speed in the pending rule changes regarding AR type weapons?

And are retailers still bringing in new stocks of ARs?

Or is it a wait and see?

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## cambo

Still are AR's coming in, but very little due to the US situation.
It has gone through the 3rd reading in parliment, so it's now a matter of when not if.

I think this is the ammendment to the arms act....
Arms (Military Style Semi-automatic Firearms and Import Controls) Amendment Act 2012 No 117, Public Act Contents &ndash; New Zealand Legislation

I don't know if the new changes are in there yet or if there are still more to come. From what I've heard, there are many changes yet to be announced.

edit:
These are new amendments......
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/p...25_se&p=1&sr=2

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## Digit

We are still flooding the market with ARs. We got our latest import permit from nz police a couple of days ago. Never been a better time to buy!

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## steven

> Obviously not a political topic....!!!
> 
> But can anyone bring me and others up to speed in the pending rule changes regarding AR type weapons?
> 
> And are retailers still bringing in new stocks of ARs?
> 
> Or is it a wait and see?


"declare semi-automatic firearms (other than pistols) of a stated make and model to be military style semi-automatic firearms for the purposes of this Act:"

Looking how its going in the US, I'd consider waiting, they might be re-classed E here.

Im curious, why do you want one?

regards

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## gimp

It sucks, I want to bring in some stuff from the US, but it's not currently available due to US ban-panic, and if I get NZ permits now they'll expire before I can get it from the US, and if I wait I might not be able to get permits. Balls.

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## mikee

> It sucks, I want to bring in some stuff from the US, but it's not currently available due to US ban-panic, and if I get NZ permits now they'll expire before I can get it from the US, and if I wait I might not be able to get permits. Balls.


NZ Import Permits valid for 12 months, if they expire before your stuff is in stock then you can ask for them to be re issued as you have the stuff on back order. At least that's what happened in my case. Does mean you have to submit the documents again to get US Export re-approved as these permits only remain valid while your import permit is valid.
I have been waiting since April last year for 2 stripped uppers. Have everything else.

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## gimp

Okay, that's great, thanks for the info - I thought they expired after 1 month.

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## Gemini

I am just wondering about owners having to retrospectively change format, re license or surrender.

AR's are a good platform. And hopefully the survive in NZL post the changes...

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## G.K

> "declare semi-automatic firearms (other than pistols) of a stated make and model to be military style semi-automatic firearms for the purposes of this Act:"
> 
> Looking how its going in the US, I'd consider waiting, they might be re-classed E here.
> 
> Im curious, why do you want one?
> 
> regards


Why did you want your guns? Bit of a strange question to ask unless you are a AR basher!

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## PerazziSC3

So if ar15 get puts on e-cat will the owners of them have to either sell the rifle or get an e-cat licence?  I am really vlose to buying one but dont want to be stuck with something I have to sell or cant use because I only have a cat licence

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## gimp

Get your E if they change it.

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## compound

Why are so many scared of E cat licencing? Too scared of extra scrutiny and a decent quality safe?

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## veitnamcam

Price of the safe could put some off. Well me away.

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## gimp

Compared to the cost of my guns and optics, an extra couple of hundred bucks on a more secure safe to keep them in is a pretty small investment, personally, and I'd guess that's true of a lot of people here.

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## veitnamcam

True, Just depends how much play money you have I guess.

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## Digit

I think you will see affordable E-Cat safes in the near future once importers understand how the police will implement the new MSSA ammendments. Topmaq import an affordable 10 gun safe at the moment.

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## Beavis

Latest rumors I've heard is they were meant to start letting stuff be known March/April, but has been put off till June because they've realized the amendment could cause them dramas again, and further law making might be required to make it work. I can't confirm the validity of that though - changes might come out tomorrow.

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## steven

> Why did you want your guns? Bit of a strange question to ask unless you are a AR basher!


I asked a Q in order to understand.  Not an AR basher as such, sort of any semi makes me wonder....I can see some ppl have a real use for one just for most NZ hunters?  just wondering on the reasons.

regards

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## Beavis

> I asked a Q in order to understand.  Not an AR basher as such, sort of any semi makes me wonder....I can see some ppl have a real use for one just for most NZ hunters?  just wondering on the reasons.
> 
> regards


They're good hunting rifles, not everybody is a hunter either.

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## Happy

Easiest answer is take one rabbit shooting where's there's rabbits galore for a start . Goat shooting, fallow deer , red deer if you re good enough shot . Lightweight super accurate ergonomic to use . You do need to try one before you can say not for me cos try a good one and you could be saying wow that's light, wow that's nice to carry and wow that's my most accurate gun in the safe   Mind you if you do ALL your hunting for Reds and bigger animals no pest control or target shooting you may already have the tool that suits you for that 
If you really want to know why folks like them for safe shooting not wanly  bollocks Rambo shite try one . 

Cheers  :Thumbsup:  :Thumbsup:

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## G.K

> I asked a Q in order to understand.  Not an AR basher as such, sort of any semi makes me wonder....I can see some ppl have a real use for one just for most NZ hunters?  just wondering on the reasons.
> 
> regards


Hahaha that's a politician answer to a question answering a question with another question, I asked why you chose your guns? It's all a individual preffrance on what we shoot. I prefer semi's but I don't slag anyone's choice to shoot bolt actions that there choice and I don't have any right to judge them on it. And at the end of the day they all have a trigger and go bang    :Thumbsup:

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## Savage1

Our AO said the changes were being put off till June/July. She also said that if you already have a newly classed MSSA the fee for getting an E will be waived but the justification for needing one will be the same. Not sure how accurate this is though.

ARs are great for pest control and plinking, to loud to chamber a load for any type of stalking with others though. Nice to shoot but definitely attract a few muppets which is why having them go E will probably be a good thing. I much prefer a semi for hunting.

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## gadgetman

> Hahaha that's a politician answer to a question answering a question with another question, I asked why you chose your guns? It's all a individual preffrance on what we shoot. I prefer semi's but I don't slag anyone's choice to shoot bolt actions that there choice and I don't have any right to judge them on it. And at the end of the day they all have a trigger and go bang


On the other hand steven wasn't bagging the AR's either. Seemed like a genuine question to me. Like why did you choose a T3 over a 700. I had a play with an AR and was very impressed with it. Unlikely to buy one as I'm too much of a tight wad and tend to make every shot count. I bought a semi 22lr for rabbits but have hardly used it preferring the bolt action even though the semi is more accurate, and we have shot some serious numbers of rabbits.

Just quietly steven almost sounds like he could be finding reasons to decide if it could be a valid reason for him too.

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## scaggly

> ARs are great for pest control and plinking, to loud to chamber a load for any type of stalking with others though. Nice to shoot but definitely attract a few muppets which is why having them go E will probably be a good thing. I much prefer a semi for hunting.


You can chamber a round pretty quietly, ride the charging handle gently and finish with your FA. 

It is probably still also still a reasonable chance that ARs with thumbhole stocks will be able to stay as A cat, but only time will tell... Seems a bit counter-productive to suddenly have a flood of people who can legally add big magazines to their rifles, but logic doesn't always come into things.

Would like to build a dedicated .22AR for plinking/teaching new shooters etc, but will have to see how things play out in the next few months. Not much point building something for the kids to use if it is to suddenly become e-cat.

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## Beavis

They're still way to loud to load a round quietly when you are onto a deer in the bush. Just use the safety. 

It hurts my brain to think of them changing rules over a handle, but those that follow the issue closely know it's just a bull shit cover story for an ulterior motive.

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## scaggly

> They're still way to loud to load a round quietly when you are onto a deer in the bush. Just use the safety. 
> 
> It hurts my brain to think of them changing rules over a handle, but those that follow the issue closely know it's just a bull shit cover story for an ulterior motive.


Yep, I go for the safety too, but a lot of people are a bit leery of that option.

Agree entirely on the BS motives. Strange days....

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## gimp

Need? Come on. No-one 'needs' to hunt, if you want to get down to asking why anyone 'needs' any type of firearm. Who decided that murdering poor innocent animals is a more legitimate use of a gun than collecting, target shooting, etc?

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## veitnamcam

> Need? Come on. No-one 'needs' to hunt, if you want to get down to asking why anyone 'needs' any type of firearm. Who decided that murdering poor innocent animals is a more legitimate use of a gun than collecting, target shooting, etc?


I need to hunt.

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## Toby

You don't "need" to shoot the poor innocent paper either. Be a lot better if all firearms users got along.

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## gimp

> You don't "need" to shoot the poor innocent paper either. Be a lot better if all firearms users got along.


That's my point, there are all these people saying "well you shouldn't be allowed to own a semi auto because I don't think anyone needs one for hunting" as if "need" means a damn thing, and as if hunting is somehow so much more legitimate than "I want one and as a responsible licensed person there's no reason I shouldn't be allowed one to do whatever the hell I want with"

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## veitnamcam

I agree gimp but to say nobody needs to hunt is a bit harsh.
Some people earn there living hunting. I don't but if i didn't hunt i would have been bankrupt a couple of times lost my house and had a young family starving.
Actually they would never starve. I would do ANYTHING to ensure my family is fed.

I don't own a semi but see there purpose weather its hunting or fun. I have nothing against them i would have some if i could afford them and the safe and a couple hundred rounds at the range.

Just thought it was a very dumb comment from an intelligent man.


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## gimp

Hunting is basically a hobby for the vast majority of people, I was just making a generalisation to make a point.

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## Beavis

> That's my point, there are all these people saying "well you shouldn't be allowed to own a semi auto because I don't think anyone needs one for hunting" as if "need" means a damn thing, and as if hunting is somehow so much more legitimate than "I want one and as a responsible licensed person there's no reason I shouldn't be allowed one to do whatever the hell I want with"


Pretty much this. I don't fancy the idea of having to justify every facet of what I want to own, the whole nanny state thing. A lot of things I own just cuz.

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## gadgetman

> That's my point, there are all these people saying "well you shouldn't be allowed to own a semi auto because I don't think anyone needs one for hunting" as if "need" means a damn thing, and as if hunting is somehow so much more legitimate than "I want one and as a responsible licensed person there's no reason I shouldn't be allowed one to do whatever the hell I want with"


Exactly. I don't own one, nor want one. But till my last breath I'll stick up for those that wish to own one. If the "need" is a requirement, then the Queen just needs to drive herself around in a mini.

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## Happy

> If the "need" is a requirement, then the Queen just needs to drive herself around in a mini.


And that would be the only time you d stand for as long as it was less than 5 mins to watch it go past

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## Survy

So confirm for E Cat change, would a AR15 holder need to only

1. Upgrade safe
2. Reconfirm why they need E cat

.?

No gun clubs you have to a member of etc to retain it ?

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## gadgetman

> And that would be the only time you d stand for as long as it was less than 5 mins to watch it go past


Being a BMW now you'd probably have to wait a while for the truck to collect it and take it to the agents. The breed generally doesn't have a good rep from what I've heard.

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## mikee

> Price of the safe could put some off. Well me away.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


You could make your own, mate.

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## cambo

> So confirm for E Cat change, would a AR15 holder need to only
> 
> 1. Upgrade safe
> 2. Reconfirm why they need E cat
> 
> .?
> 
> No gun clubs you have to a member of etc to retain it ?




If you already have something that they have reclassified as Ecat, then you only need to change to ecat due to the fact that they have changed the regs.

Last time there was issues, the Police did a free upgrade to Ecat. You didn't need different referees and reasons to change (apart from ownership already) and only upgraded security is needed.
Hopefully they'll do the  same thing this time.

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## mikee

> So confirm for E Cat change, would a AR15 holder need to only
> 
> 1. Upgrade safe
> 2. Reconfirm why they need E cat  
> 
> .?
> 
> No gun clubs you have to a member of etc to retain it ?


Because it was a perfectly legal A Cat when I got it

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## cambo

Well said Mikee!    :Thumbsup:

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## Savage1

The "I want" is a good enough reason argument will never work, same principle could be applied to explosives, claymore mines, RPG, chemical weapons etc. Work on the "I need" argument, pest control,sporting etc.

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## gadgetman

> The "I want" is a good enough reason argument will never work, same principle could be applied to explosives, claymore mines, RPG, chemical weapons etc. Work on the "I need" argument, pest control,sporting etc.


Can we apply it to the subsidized bar a tucker at the buzzy house? The overweight polis don't need the grog, nor do a lot of them need to eat so much; they could exist on bread and water, everyone could. We don't need people to write fiction, nor make movies, nor music. But without choices the world would be an awfully dull place.

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## gimp

No one 'needs' alcohol at all and it sure as shit causes a thousand times more deaths, social and economic harm than semi auto guns do, it's literally poison, Ban alcohol.

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## gadgetman

> No one 'needs' alcohol at all and it sure as shit causes a thousand times more deaths, social and economic harm than semi auto guns do, it's literally poison, Ban alcohol.


Or at least limit them to a 7ml capacity, require an empty to be handed in before a full one is issued, ensure that the owner has security such that the under aged cannot access it, require a valid reason for requesting it, ....

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## Littledog

> No one 'needs' alcohol at all and it sure as shit causes a thousand times more deaths, social and economic harm than semi auto guns do, it's literally poison, Ban alcohol.


I never thought I would agree with Gimp-but he speaks the truth! Apart from fat chicks Gimp-they 'need' alcohol!!!

Im not for banning alcohol-I enjoy it (responsibly) just like many of us enjoy semis-responsibly! But gimp has hit on a valid point.

I have a car that can travel more than 100km/h (the limit to our speed laws) but it doesn't mean im going out and speeding at 150km/h every day and causing mayhem and carnage. I see many people with Holden or Ford V8s that can travel faster than our legal speed limits but these cars are not banned or require special endorsements to own-so why are AR and other semi rifles frowned apon or facing further restrictions?

If you are a vetted, legal and law abiding citizen then why to we have to pander to enjoy our sport?

Alcohol and cars cause so many more deaths, injuries and harm to our community every year than firearms do, but its easier to walk into a bar and buy a RTD or into a auto shop and buy a turbo Skyline than it is to own a semi auto in original issue!

But what is considered the bigger evil?-firearms!!!

Its a mad mad world!

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## gimp

Need based arguments are terrible. Come back with a good reason why I should be assumed to be a dangerous criminal who can't be trusted with things that look slightly different to other things that I can be trusted with. Don't make me submit to interviews, safety testing and background checks, all of which should add up to say that I'm in fact not a dangerous criminal, then say 'no, you can't have 2 functionally identical items, because one of them looks like something I saw in a movie with Ahnold and I'm scared of it'.

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## gimp

It's an emotive subject and I hope we can discuss it rationally without getting too worked up. The problem is that the arguements to ban things are largely from an emotive standpoint, much like people wanting to ban hunting because 'think of the animals'. Show me some concrete evidence that banning lawful, licensed, vetted firearms owners from owning certain things which are cosmetic features of a firearm will achieve any net good that is worth the reduction in freedom. Bayonet lugs, pistol grips,etc. 

I can't have an adjustable LOP stock on my AR, but it's okay for me to have one and pin it at the shortest position as long as it's over the legal minimum length, or have a gun with no stock at all as long as it's over legal length and not designed to be fired with one hand. It's ridiculous. Anyone who wants a short concealable gun for a crime is just going to break that law anyway, because they're already planning on breaking laws, they're not going to care if their sawed off 12g isn't over 762mm.

You can say 'that sort of gun attracts "The wrong sort of person". Well I like 'that sort of gun', (although I'm just as picky about semi-autos as I am about bolt guns, and everything else, because I'm a fussy bitch) so do a lot of others, and I'm not "the wrong sort of person", and I find it very insulting that the assumption is made, it's an intensely obnoxious and prejudiced phrase. "The wrong sort of person" shouldn't have any gun and that should be prevented in the initial licensing/vetting process. If "the wrong sort of person" gets their hands on any gun and intends to use it for nefarious purposes, they're not going to obey the laws regardless, it is just restricting the freedoms of one of the most heavily vetted to be lawful sectors of society.

And this is getting political I guess so I shouldn't even be posting this stuff. I don't know why I bother since people are very unlikely to be swayed from an opinion on an emotive subject like this by a discussion on the Internet, regardless of merit.

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## Beavis

I think a good rebuttal to the "you don't need an AR" argument is "you don't need an AR to go on a shooting rampage", which seems to be why everybody gets hurt feelings over them. You literally don't. No point restricting them.

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## Beavis

I'd also like to point out the fact that the ready availability of AR's to A cat holders, hasn't resulted in any increased firearms wrong doing. Think it pretty much kills the issue of cosmetic features.

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## Bill999

all we need now is for one violent crime to be committed with an Ar15  and were all fucked

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## veitnamcam

If you were the paranoid type you would be worried about the powers that be insuring that it happened so they had the ammo to push it threw 

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## steven

LOL, actually if I look at semi's then Im definately a SKS person, but purely because of the cheap fun aspect of them, 

 :Thumbsup: 

I can see them as a huge blast, just I wonder about say hunting with them.

I mean there is a huge difference from $2k for an AR10/15 v $400~800 for a chinese/russian sks to take down a range and throw lead down.  If I had $2k I'd be looking at or saving more for a quality bolt like a sako 85 I can hand onto my son one day.  Otherwise, yes I think an SKS should be in my gun safe...Im sure my son wouldnt let it sit there gathering dust.

 :Cool:

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## Towely

> I mean there is a huge difference from $2k for an AR10/15


WHOAH!!! An AR10 for 2k!? Where? Where?

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## Scouser

> LOL, actually if I look at semi's then Im definately a SKS person, but purely because of the cheap fun aspect of them, 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see them as a huge blast, just I wonder about say hunting with them.
> 
> I mean there is a huge difference from $2k for an AR10/15 v $400~800 for a chinese/russian sks to take down a range and throw lead down.  If I had $2k I'd be looking at or saving more for a quality bolt like a sako 85 I can hand onto my son one day.  Otherwise, yes I think an SKS should be in my gun safe...Im sure my son wouldnt let it sit there gathering dust.


Just my 2c....ive got both an SKS and an AR15.....do i NEED either of them for hunting?, no, ive got two bolt actions for that,....then why do i own them?
because i WANT to own them....ive been interviewed and vetted by the Police, my partner also, and i have more than adequate security to keep them safe....

As a law abiding citizen of this country where i have the legal right to own these 'classes' of firearms, that is all i have to say on the subject!!!!!!!!

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## Bill999

I agree steven. first you buy the sako hunting rifle then you buy the ar15

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## Savage1

I suppose you can argue all day either way but at the end of the day they aren't saying you can't have them, just if you want them there is an extra level of vetting and increased security. I personally see no problem with that, I don't know what the big deal is. 

You want the toys, get the endorsement, job done. I'm sure an extra level of vetting is a good thing when concerning rifles of this nature. 

The car argument hardly works as they aren't used or designed to commit mass killings, personally I couldn't care less if they restricted all civilian vehicles to 110km/h, they do it with trucks at 90 and buses at 100 in Europe. There is no "need" to go faster and "wanting" to isn't a good enough reason as it endangers others including the people who have to pick up your pieces lying on the road.

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## steven

In some ways I agree, ie why is it can I walk into a car showroom and buy a Porsche or a Ferrari both clearly capable of far in excess of the speed limit and no one bats an eyelid or asks you for a Cat E driving licence. Yet someone drools over a nice gun and the namby pampies think you are a nut job. Sit outside polishing one 4 wheel possesion and ppl smile, do the same with the other posession and ppl fll their undies and call the cops.  I wonder how life looked 100 years ago, read a piece where ppl would walk into a park and do their target practice there...in this case it was the guy who shot the crown prince and started WW1, somethings just dont seem consistant.

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## TeRei

Tell me the true figures of people killed by a semi AR15 type rifle in the last 10 years for all people charged with murder or manslaughter [excepting Aramoana out of the consideration]. Bet you it comes at the bottom and knives are top of the list.Bureaucrats do not like the truth much like politicians. Unfortunately we can vote out the latter but the former are a protected species in NZ. Even a noted judge Grant Hammond is appalled by the National govt proposal to legislate against bureaucrats being sued.You can see Mrs Crouch is very lucky to get any pay out and the incredibly stupid response by Anne Tolley about the case. Many many people are going to Aussie every day and for good reason.

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## Ryan

Personally, I find that a pistol grip on a rifle is more ergonomic than a traditional grip.

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## steven

> I agree steven. first you buy the sako hunting rifle then you buy the ar15


Actually I think the first thing is a good (enough) FTR gun (or 2), then do the Deer stalkers hunting course...then get a sako!

Actually I will probably do their course this spring, my eldest is very keen to do it just for the experience.

 :Thumbsup:

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## Bill999

what the hell is a FTR gun.

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## scaggly

> ...
> 
> The car argument hardly works as they aren't used or *designed to commit mass killings,* personally I couldn't care less if they restricted all civilian vehicles to 110km/h, they do it with trucks at 90 and buses at 100 in Europe. There is no "need" to go faster and "wanting" to isn't a good enough reason as it endangers others including the people who have to pick up your pieces lying on the road.


Whoa, there!!  Since when are sporting rifles designed to commit mass killings? If you don't like ARs, then fair enough, don't buy one. But don't buy into the hyperbole of the ignorant who promote gun hysteria either.  

At the end of the day all guns are dangerous, that is why we're all responsible adults who take great care with firearms.

ETA. Apologies if this sounds a bit grumpy, am at home today with toothache, so normal thought filters aren't working at their best.

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## mikee

> Whoa, there!!  Since when are sporting rifles designed to commit mass killings? If you don't like ARs, then fair enough, don't buy one. But don't buy into the hyperbole of the ignorant who promote gun hysteria either.  
> 
> At the end of the day all guns are dangerous, that is why we're all responsible adults who take great care with firearms.




Ohh that's about the most sensible , common sense reply i have seen on this topic..

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## gimp

> I suppose you can argue all day either way but at the end of the day they aren't saying you can't have them, just if you want them there is an extra level of vetting and increased security. I personally see no problem with that, I don't know what the big deal is. 
> 
> You want the toys, get the endorsement, job done. I'm sure an extra level of vetting is a good thing when concerning rifles of this nature. 
> 
> The car argument hardly works as they aren't used or designed to commit mass killings, personally I couldn't care less if they restricted all civilian vehicles to 110km/h, they do it with trucks at 90 and buses at 100 in Europe. There is no "need" to go faster and "wanting" to isn't a good enough reason as it endangers others including the people who have to pick up your pieces lying on the road.


I don't use my guns to commit mass killings? So they're not used or designed for that. Look at the end result of what happens with the item, not a nebulous theoretical idea of what it was designed for. Fast cars going fast on public roads dangerously result in people dying. Pistol grips on a rifle result in... people having cool guns and enjoying using them?

The problem I have is with what this thread was started about**: changing pistol grips back to E. it's bullshit emotive legislation based on fear of a cosmetic feature that has no actual benefit and is just going to inconvenience and cost law abiding firearms owners.

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## Happy

Orig question was kinda anyone know the result of law changes proposed or coming or whatever. Sounds like answer has been delayed some what. Yeehaa worry about it later. Be prepared to get E cat if need to. If it becomes law such is life and  all the rest of your firearms in an E cat safe will be safer and harder to remove by thieves etc  Just looks like this convo is going no where now . We can debate it for ever but why bother it ll become "political". If anyone does hear anything concrete please let us all know

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## Beavis

"To these old-timers, the AR-15 just didn’t seem like a “hunting rifle” in any meaningful sense of the word. In addition to its non-traditional look and the aforementioned stigmas attached to it, the AR’s small-caliber cartridge ruled it out for many hunters. Accustomed to taking down trophy bucks with a hefty .30-caliber round, they ridiculed the AR-15 as a “mouse gun” and feared that its smaller .223-caliber bullet would only wound an animal, instead of taking it down with a single, clean shot. Other hunters whose opinions of the AR were formed mostly by Hollywood movies hated the gun for the opposite reason, fearing that machine-gun-toting yahoos would be out shredding game, trees, and possibly other hunters with a spray of uber-high-powered bullets. Either way, traditionalist hunters felt that these modern “tactical” rifles were designed solely for armed combat, and therefore had no place in a sport where the prey can’t actually shoot back."

Full article here: The AR-15 Is More Than a Gun. It's a Gadget | Danger Room | Wired.com

I can personally attest they are excellent for hunting

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## gimp

> LOL, actually if I look at semi's then Im definately a SKS person, but purely because of the cheap fun aspect of them, 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see them as a huge blast, just I wonder about say hunting with them.
> 
> I mean there is a huge difference from $2k for an AR10/15 v $400~800 for a chinese/russian sks to take down a range and throw lead down.  If I had $2k I'd be looking at or saving more for a quality bolt like a sako 85 I can hand onto my son one day.  Otherwise, yes I think an SKS should be in my gun safe...Im sure my son wouldnt let it sit there gathering dust.


I'll buy a quality Noveske or similar AR that I can pass down along with my Benelli m2, Sako75, etc, and it'll be equally useful and used

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## gimp

> what the hell is a FTR gun.


In the only context I'm aware of, it's a subset of F-Class requiring a .308 or .223.

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## veitnamcam

Fast cars and or speed doesn't kill.
If it did i would be dead and so would anyone who had ever entered any sort of race.

Camper vans on the wrong side of the road and pissed Cunts kill.

Similarly i can't recall any case of a pistol grip or folding stock killing anyone ever.

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## gimp

> Fast cars and or speed doesn't kill.
> If it did i would be dead and so would anyone who had ever entered any sort of race.
> 
> Camper vans on the wrong side of the road and pissed Cunts kill.
> 
> Similarly i can't recall any case of a pistol grip or folding stock killing anyone ever.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


You're right, speed itself in suitable conditions and places does not kill anyone. I should stop making generalisations, but my posts are already too long

----------


## steven

TR = target rifle or a "palma gun", in NATO military ammo. So .308 or .223, peep sites up to 1000yds, usually 30in or so barrel length, 13:1 twist 155gr max bullet.  FTR is a TR / plama class gun but with a bipod and scope for us old gits who are half blind and too decrepid to hold the f**king thing up any more. 

 :36 1 5: 

You can use a hunting type .308, but its not competitive. .223 is an alternative....

 :XD: 

F-open is a "FTR" class where the caliber is free to 8mm and the front support can be a tripod, can weigh more I think as well. l 6MM, 6.5MM and 7MM seem popular.  Generally costs shed loads to do....

 :36 22 1:

----------


## Savage1

> Whoa, there!!  Since when are sporting rifles designed to commit mass killings? If you don't like ARs, then fair enough, don't buy one. But don't buy into the hyperbole of the ignorant who promote gun hysteria either.  
> 
> At the end of the day all guns are dangerous, that is why we're all responsible adults who take great care with firearms.
> 
> ETA. Apologies if this sounds a bit grumpy, am at home today with toothache, so normal thought filters aren't working at their best.


Yeah sorry I didn't mean that in the way it was taken, I mean't in the way that an AR is based on the M16 which was designed for killing people. As for used I am talking about how mass killings have been performed using guns but am un aware of any that have used a car.

I don't hate ARs at all, I own one myself!

Back to the original question, if you have an AR or AK derivative then I would be getting prepared to get an E endorsement, I have been.

----------


## gimp

> Yeah sorry I didn't mean that in the way it was taken, I mean't in the way that an AR is based on the M16 which was designed for killing people. As for used I am talking about how mass killings have been performed using guns but am un aware of any that have used a car.
> 
> I don't hate ARs at all, I own one myself!
> 
> Back to the original question, if you have an AR or AK derivative then I would be getting prepared to get an E endorsement, I have been.


Most bolt actions are based on the 98 Mauser originally, and that killed plenty of people. It's all about what you use it for now though that counts.

----------


## Savage1

Yes but bolt actions don't attract the kinds of nutters that go and shoot up schools. MSSA do. Like I said, if you want that type of rifle then get the endorsenment, they aren't saying you can't have one and I think that most people would agree that the current A cat FAL is a little easy to get.

----------


## Beavis

The A cat system should be enough to weed out nutters making endorsements moot. I don't like the idea of nutters having access to 10/22's, shotguns and Tikka T3's, let alone AR15's. I get that black rifles attract some people who's cheese ain't on the cracker, but really we have a vetting process to go through, that is meant to weed them out, if it doesn't we are doing something wrong.

----------


## Digit

> Yes but bolt actions don't attract the kinds of nutters that go and shoot up schools. MSSA do. Like I said, if you want that type of rifle then get the endorsenment, they aren't saying you can't have one and I think that most people would agree that the current A cat FAL is a little easy to get.


Depends on intended use. Even if you have an E-Cat licence, if you tell the AO you want one for hunting he will most likely tell you to go get a hand in first - thats almost as effective as saying you cant have one.

----------


## Savage1

> The A cat system should be enough to weed out nutters making endorsements moot. I don't like the idea of nutters having access to 10/22's, shotguns and Tikka T3's, let alone AR15's. I get that black rifles attract some people who's cheese ain't on the cracker, but really we have a vetting process to go through, that is meant to weed them out, if it doesn't we are doing something wrong.


Couldn't agree more Beavis, just wish the vetting process was better for A-Cat.

----------


## Towely

> Yes but bolt actions don't attract the kinds of nutters that go and shoot up schools. MSSA do. Like I said, if you want that type of rifle then get the endorsenment, they aren't saying you can't have one and I think that most people would agree that the current A cat FAL is a little easy to get.


I spewed in my mouth when i read this. I always do when i see utter dribble like the above post.

----------


## Bill999

> Yes but bolt actions don't attract the kinds of nutters that go and shoot up schools. MSSA do. Like I said, if you want that type of rifle then get the endorsenment, they aren't saying you can't have one and I think that most people would agree that the current A cat FAL is a little easy to get.


where did you study psycoligy again? 
peer reviewed examples to back up your claims please, to make them relevant NZ examples only please.
just to show us how the currant system is failing

----------


## Beavis

Benefits of E cat:

Use any stock you want.

Unlimited mag capacity.

Get a rifle in "as issue" format.

Compete in 3 gun and Service rifle

Downsides:

Can't lend your rifle to a mate, can't even let them hold it.

Need to get a permit to procure if you want to buy something. Need to hold onto it. 

Pain in the arse getting import permits. 

Storage issues if you travel with your rifle - you can't chuck it in your mates A cat safe if you want to go to the pub or do anything else after a hunt or whatever. 

E cat AR's are generally pretty expensive.

Limited pool of rifles and parts in country resulting in inflated prices. Can't just go out and import the shit you want. Need special reasons etc.

I'd probably prefer to keep at least one AR on A cat for the above reasons.

----------


## Happy

This is tongue in cheek but your comment above asked for it. Thats a blanket statement and possibly a little unfair to us non nutters ... who may or may not own MSSA s

   Laugh Im not trying to start an argument with you ...   :Thumbsup: 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  OOOhhh sounds like you are saying if you own an MSSA theres potential that you could be a nutter    :36 1 5: 

   Or if you are a nutter you buy a MSSA  ?  Strange old world if we all liked the same things ...  Nutter firearms should only be allowed to be owned by people who can pass the "Im not a nutter test "

  Do they get a weekly check up and all clear in case of head injury or in case they were disguised as not a nutter when they first passed ? .    :Psmiley: 

Utter Peanut Butter Nutter - YouTube

----------


## Savage1

> This is tongue in cheek but your comment above asked for it. Thats a blanket statement and possibly a little unfair to us non nutters ... who may or may not own MSSA s
> 
>    Laugh Im not trying to start an argument with you ...  
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>   OOOhhh sounds like you are saying if you own an MSSA theres potential that you could be a nutter   
> 
>    Or if you are a nutter you buy a MSSA  ?  Strange old world if we all liked the same things ...  Nutter firearms should only be allowed to be owned by people who can pass the "Im not a nutter test "
> ...


Once again you misinterpreted. Where did I say that all people that are attracted to MSSAs are nutters? There was no blanket statement made.

----------


## Savage1

> where did you study psycoligy again? 
> peer reviewed examples to back up your claims please, to make them relevant NZ examples only please.
> just to show us how the currant system is failing


I haven't studied psychology, I never said I did or professed to be an expert in the subject.

What kind of rifle were Mollenar and Gray using? I'm not aware of any NZ peer reviewed studies, there wouldn't be enough data.Should I venture overseas to use examples from them? Just look at what types of weapons are used in the shootings, MSSAs and pistols.

The current system wasn't failing but then the Police went a bit far with the interpretation and then the judge favoured to far back in my opinion. Is it wrong to be pro active with law changes to reflect how society is changing or just better to react?

----------


## Bill999

you might lose your temper and crash your car into a big group of people, better make it illegal for you to own one. 
with a slow motocycle would likely make you less inclined to do it

Lets ban all the cars so no one crashes them into a big group of school children
all you need to get to work is 50cc scooters

infact my friends sister was killed by a car intentionally driven into a group of people (actually true)

----------


## Savage1

> you might lose your temper and crash your car into a big group of people, better make it illegal for you to own one. 
> with a slow motocycle would likely make you less inclined to do it
> 
> Lets ban all the cars so no one crashes them into a big group of school children
> all you need to get to work is 50cc scooters
> 
> infact my friends sister was killed by a car intentionally driven into a group of people (actually true)


And my post gets called drivel, you can justify anything with unrealistic examples. I'm stopping now, no far off topic. PM me if you feel like it.

----------


## Bulltahr

Time to lock her up Mods, we are starting to look like the dark side.........................

----------


## Bill999

na mate I made my point, just wanted to show you what its like to be in the group loosing something that you legally own and safely use today, 

whats worse is that the people trying to remove ar15s dont even use them and probably never ever even shot one. 

Imagine twenty thousand people who dont own or have never even driven a car going to parliament trying to get them banned, and the parlorment listening to them and going thru the process of banning them

----------


## Beavis

Na if this was fishnhunt it would be worse. At least we can debate above primary school level. 

I just think there are more productive ways of enhancing "society" rather than shitting bricks over and spending god knows how much of our cash chasing after handles on rifles.

----------


## Ryan

IIRC Charles Whitman used a bolt-action Remington to shoot a bunch of university students in Austin, TX? Lee Harvey Oswald (allegedly) on JFK? 




> Yes but bolt actions don't attract the kinds of nutters that go and shoot up schools. MSSA do. Like I said, if you want that type of rifle then get the endorsenment, they aren't saying you can't have one and I think that most people would agree that the current A cat FAL is a little easy to get.

----------


## Happy

> Once again you misinterpreted. Where did I say that all people that are attracted to MSSAs are nutters? There was no blanket statement made.


And who could not like the peanut butter nutter.?   :Psmiley: 

Sorry my terminology may not have been correct. just saying if a nutter lives in a blue house and I live in a blue house does that mean I must be a nutter as well ..?

Lots different views on this topic. Its a hard one for all to agree on. Dont know the answer. I dont mind change and changes cos thats guaranteed in life. I dont really like change for the sake of change.
If it aint broke ,,, etc

----------


## gimp

> I haven't studied psychology, I never said I did or professed to be an expert in the subject.
> 
> What kind of rifle were Mollenar and Gray using? I'm not aware of any NZ peer reviewed studies, there wouldn't be enough data.Should I venture overseas to use examples from them? Just look at what types of weapons are used in the shootings, MSSAs and pistols.
> 
> The current system wasn't failing but then the Police went a bit far with the interpretation and then the judge favoured to far back in my opinion. Is it wrong to be pro active with law changes to reflect how society is changing or just better to react?


Molenaar was using illegal rifles because the police fucked up, additional restrictions would have made no difference. He was also hardly a mass killer, pretty sure some guy killed more people with a samurai sword. Samurai swords attract the wrong sort of person, ban them! Grey isn't relevant because it was before the current system, so how can it show a failure of the current system?

Making pistol grips on a rifle E cat again is simply a giant waste of time and money for legal, responsible gun owners as it's going to cost us either to change what was a legal rifle to make it compliant, or $200 for the endorsement plus safe costs plus the hassle of the interviews etc. And it is 100% banning based on cosmetics not any function, it is stupid as hell and will prevent nothing.

----------


## Savage1

If you read what I posted you would see that I was using them as examples of nutters wanting MSSA, Grey is very relevant as he was a nutter who went mad with an MSSA regardless of the legislation at the time. 

As for Molenaar not being a mass killer, he attempted to kill a lot of people just missed all but one of them, could have been very different.

I never said there was a failure in the current system.

The E cat laws are based on cosmetics as well hence the flash suppressor, cosmetics do attract some unhinged people. I personally don't have a problem in having to have an extra interview and upgraded security to make it that much more difficult for unsavoury people to get hold of these types of rifles, at least we can still get them.

Try reading my post properly before implying that I have said otherwise.

----------


## Scouser

Slight change of drift here....high cap mags.......i have a 'permanent' 7 cap mag on my SKS, an A cat AK47 (or chinese equivalent) is usually 5 cap, there is more or less no difference in these 2 firearms (IMHO)
but i can get an SKS for (roughly) $300 on Gun Citys weekly $1 reserve, brand new in 'cossy oil', while the 'chinky AK' costs around a grand more to buy, why? because through 'Hollywood' and the like, the AK has
reached 'ICON' status.....thats the only reason why, if you dont have the 30 rd 'banana clip' on full auto, the SKS is the same but much cheaper alternative......

I have been asked a couple of times by hikers/trampers, 'Ooo you have an AK' and there almost 'swooning'...'NO, I own an SKS' is my reply......'a what?'

its exactly the same with 'The Black Rifle'....its the 'three sixes' scenario, the 'horned beast' of firearms......not when it has a 5 rd cap mag..........my SKS would kick its arse all the way back to yankyville......

High cap mags....they need legislation....not semi-automatic 'whatevers'.......discuss

PS i own both an SKS & AR15

----------


## gimp

The A cat vetting ought to stop those "nutters" getting their hands on firearms at all, and you haven't supplied any evidence that it doesn't - Grey was before the current system, Molenaar had let his license lapse and no-one bothered to check that he had got rid of his guns. Molenaar is also irrelevant as there are plenty of people who have shot people with bolt actions, shotguns etc, why cherry pick one single example out of dozens to point to and say that he's the only 'nutter' and had some illegal 'MSSAs' therefore nutters are attracted to MSSAs? What about all the other 'nutters' who were attracted to ye olde .303? Or the 'nutters' who beat someone to death with a bar stool? Or a samurai sword?

----------


## gimp

> I never said there was a failure in the current system.


You literally must think there is a failure in the current system since you support changing it to make cosmetic features more restricted.

----------


## gimp

> Slight change of drift here....high cap mags.......i have a 'permanent' 7 cap mag on my SKS, an A cat AK47 (or chinese equivalent) is usually 5 cap, there is more or less no difference in these 2 firearms (IMHO)
> but i can get an SKS for (roughly) $300 on Gun Citys weekly $1 reserve, brand new in 'cossy oil', while the 'chinky AK' costs around a grand more to buy, why? because through 'Hollywood' and the like, the AK has
> reached 'ICON' status.....thats the only reason why, if you dont have the 30 rd 'banana clip' on full auto, the SKS is the same but much cheaper alternative......
> 
> I have been asked a couple of times by hikers/trampers, 'Ooo you have an AK' and there almost 'swooning'...'NO, I own an SKS' is my reply......'a what?'
> 
> its exactly the same with 'The Black Rifle'....its the 'three sixes' scenario, the 'horned beast' of firearms......not when it has a 5 rd cap mag..........my SKS would kick its arse all the way back to yankyville......
> 
> High cap mags....they need legislation....not semi-automatic 'whatevers'.......discuss
> ...


Mag changes take literally a second regardless of capacity. Legal restrictions on magazine size will not stop anyone who plans on breaking the law. No one is going to think "I'm going to shoot someone! But I'll only use a 7 round mag because anything else is illegal!" 

Shooting people is illegal. People need to realise that if someone is planning on shooting people, they will have no qualms about breaking any number of other laws. Before legislating, prove that there will actually be some benefit, because otherwise you are simply restricting the freedoms of honest and law abiding people.

----------


## Savage1

> The A cat vetting ought to stop those "nutters" getting their hands on firearms at all, and you haven't supplied any evidence that it doesn't - Grey was before the current system, Molenaar had let his license lapse and no-one bothered to check that he had got rid of his guns. Molenaar is also irrelevant as there are plenty of people who have shot people with bolt actions, shotguns etc, why cherry pick one single example out of dozens to point to and say that he's the only 'nutter' and had some illegal 'MSSAs' therefore nutters are attracted to MSSAs? What about all the other 'nutters' who were attracted to ye olde .303? Or the 'nutters' who beat someone to death with a bar stool? Or a samurai sword?


You're not reading what I'm writing, I said nutters are attracted to MSSAs hence the Mollenar and Grey examples, very relevant. Where are your examples of people going on shooting sprees with bolt actions? There will be the odd one but far out numbered by MSSA examples. If they had the choice I would put money on which one they would have chosen and how much more damage would have they done?

I have seen people I would consider a bit strange or unstable with a FAL, I've also met many criminals with a FAL, and I've done something about it. I don't need evidence that there are some unsavoury people with a FAL, I've seen and dealt with it myself.

The A-Cat should be perfect and stop the bad people getting a FAL but lets be realistic, it doesn't. For a start it is only once every 10 years without any requirement for inspections. People can change a lot in 10 years, join a gang, develop paranoid schizophrenia etc, at least with E-Cat they should be getting regular inspections and meetings with AO. Ideally the A requirements should be equal to the E IMHO.

Our laws aren't perfect but they are pretty good I think.

----------


## Happy

> I think the definition I used in that other thread was "if you are discussing the effect a rule, or a change in the rule will have on owners it is not political". If you argue it should be done one way or another, political. 
> 
> But I did just make this up on the spot about half an hour ago.


That is a fair call I reckon. Some just want to know how a change will effect them and what they are required to do to comply. Or even if they need to. Or even what the rule is.
Here is possibly not the place to air feelings about the whys and wherefores.. even if it is a piece of shite ...

----------


## Bill999

all changing the law does is makes it harder for law abiding citizens. crims dont care what the law says
crims will still get the guns the would have got because the way they get them is thru illigal channels

if there was a huge firearms related crime increase attributed to ar15 ownership Id probably agree with you
the truth is firearm crime related to ar15s is low, mainly due to their high cost. robbers usually like to get rid of the weapon they kill people with incase the ballistics can be traced. 

a $30 cut down 303 or cheep shot gun is a much better option. 

the fact is ar15s are scary, people see movies with other people killing people with them.

----------


## FletchNZ

> You're not reading what I'm writing, I said nutters are attracted to MSSAs hence the Mollenar and Grey examples, very relevant. Where are your examples of people going on shooting sprees with bolt actions? There will be the odd one but far out numbered by MSSA examples. If they had the choice I would put money on which one they would have chosen and how much more damage would have they done?
> 
> I have seen people I would consider a bit strange or unstable with a FAL, I've also met many criminals with a FAL, and I've done something about it. I don't need evidence that there are some unsavoury people with a FAL, I've seen and dealt with it myself.
> 
> The A-Cat should be perfect and stop the bad people getting a FAL but lets be realistic, it doesn't. For a start it is only once every 10 years without any requirement for inspections. People can change a lot in 10 years, join a gang, develop paranoid schizophrenia etc, at least with E-Cat they should be getting regular inspections and meetings with AO. Ideally the A requirements should be equal to the E IMHO.
> 
> Our laws aren't perfect but they are pretty good I think.


From Wiki:
The government was led to believe that Gray had shot all his victims with an AK-47 7.62x39mm assault rifle. It was subsequently proven that Gray used several firearms, none of which were an AK-47 assault rifle. Four of the Aramoana victims were proven to have been shot with a Norinco 84s .223 semiautomatic sporting rifle.

----------


## Towely

Ok so EVERYBODY is assuming that any gun restrictions being implemented regarding gunlaws has to have something to do with targeting criminal activity, right? I see the same trend through other forums both local and overseas.
But why has nobody decided to look outside the square and question weather any restrictive legislation is actually there to target the LAW ABIDING GUN OWNER? What better way to get the blackguns followed by every other type of firearm off the street then by targeting those that will comply with the states wishes? 

As you all seem to point out, criminals dont respect the law and will break it as they see fit. Law abiding citizens on the other hand will do anything there masters say..

----------


## Savage1

> From Wiki:
> The government was led to believe that Gray had shot all his victims with an AK-47 7.62x39mm assault rifle. It was subsequently proven that Gray used several firearms, none of which were an AK-47 assault rifle. Four of the Aramoana victims were proven to have been shot with a Norinco 84s .223 semiautomatic sporting rifle.


What's your point? The 84s pretty much is an AK47 but in .223. Looks the same and functions the same.

----------


## Savage1

> Ok so EVERYBODY is assuming that any gun restrictions being implemented regarding gunlaws has to have something to do with targeting criminal activity, right? I see the same trend through other forums both local and overseas.
> But why has nobody decided to look outside the square and question weather any restrictive legislation is actually there to target the LAW ABIDING GUN OWNER? What better way to get the blackguns followed by every other type of firearm off the street then by targeting those that will comply with the states wishes? 
> 
> As you all seem to point out, criminals dont respect the law and will break it as they see fit. Law abiding citizens on the other hand will do anything there masters say..


I was told the E cat system was there to make it harder for undesirable people who wanted to commit mass shootings to get their hands on an MSSA by targeting the things that appeal to them, eg large mags, pistol grip, flash suppressor. Not because they are any more dangerous than other weapons.

----------


## scaggly

I read a fascinating journal article by criminologist Greg Newbold who critiqued NZ gun law changes since aramoana and he concluded that pretty much all of them have little or no impact on the availability or use of firearms by criminals.  

Another fun thing is that of all the NZ mass killings, as far as I can tell, only Aramoana involved an mssa/evil black gun.  The others all involve sporting firearms. Makes cracking down on cosmetics seem a bit daft. 

Newbolds' research also suggests that cracking down on sporting arms won't do much good either, as so many are already in circulation (same as for mssas due to previous non-compliance with the advent of ecats, only around 7k of the est 15k mssa's were ever registered) and our huge and largely unpatrolled borders meaning that criminals already have a ton of restricted weapons and access to more of them if they really, really want them. 

The advent of internet plans and computerised CAD mills (and in future 3d printing) is only going to make it easier for those who shouldn't to get their hands on guns.  Only the law abiding obey the law and picking on those who obey the law won't make much odds in the long run.

----------


## Proudkiwi

> I was told the E cat system was there to make it harder for undesirable people who wanted to commit mass shootings to get their hands on an MSSA by targeting the things that appeal to them, eg large mags, pistol grip, flash suppressor. Not because they are any more dangerous than other weapons.


Just out of curiosity, who told you that? A name is fine, I can suss out thier role later.

----------


## gimp

> You're not reading what I'm writing, I said nutters are attracted to MSSAs hence the Mollenar and Grey examples, very relevant. Where are your examples of people going on shooting sprees with bolt actions? There will be the odd one but far out numbered by MSSA examples. If they had the choice I would put money on which one they would have chosen and how much more damage would have they done?
> 
> I have seen people I would consider a bit strange or unstable with a FAL, I've also met many criminals with a FAL, and I've done something about it. I don't need evidence that there are some unsavoury people with a FAL, I've seen and dealt with it myself.
> 
> The A-Cat should be perfect and stop the bad people getting a FAL but lets be realistic, it doesn't. For a start it is only once every 10 years without any requirement for inspections. People can change a lot in 10 years, join a gang, develop paranoid schizophrenia etc, at least with E-Cat they should be getting regular inspections and meetings with AO. Ideally the A requirements should be equal to the E IMHO.
> 
> Our laws aren't perfect but they are pretty good I think.


How do you definite nutters? What makes Molenaar more of a "nutter" that say, Clayton Weatherston? He stabbed a girl 217 times, that sounds pretty nutty to me. Or any of the many, many other people responsible for the 1200 odd other murders that have happened in NZ since 1997 (NZ police homicide stats). You can't claim that Molenaar's access to (illegal!) MSSAs made him a more effective spree killer since his killing 'spree' was a total of 1 person (thankfully). Since Molenaar is the only example you can point to of an MSSA being even related to a crime since the introduction of the new system, and it was illegal, doesn't that support the fact that current laws don't need strengthening and criminals are just going to ignore them anyway and find ways around them?

You're cherry picking a single murder out of hundreds/thousands, claiming that it makes some kind of point while ignoring the rest. There are hundreds of "nutters" and murderers who weren't attracted to MSSAs, the fact that one guy had some illegal MSSAs doesnt prove anything.

----------


## Savage1

> How do you definite nutters? What makes Molenaar more of a "nutter" that say, Clayton Weatherston? He stabbed a girl 217 times, that sounds pretty nutty to me. Or any of the many, many other people responsible for the 1200 odd other murders that have happened in NZ since 1997 (NZ police homicide stats). You can't claim that Molenaar's access to (illegal!) MSSAs made him a more effective spree killer since his killing 'spree' was a total of 1 person (thankfully). Since Molenaar is the only example you can point to of an MSSA being even related to a crime since the introduction of the new system, and it was illegal, doesn't that support the fact that current laws don't need strengthening and criminals are just going to ignore them anyway and find ways around them?
> 
> You're cherry picking a single murder out of hundreds/thousands, claiming that it makes some kind of point while ignoring the rest. There are hundreds of "nutters" and murderers who weren't attracted to MSSAs, the fact that one guy had some illegal MSSAs doesnt prove anything.


What the hell are you going on about?! I never said they are nuttier than others because they like guns or that people aren't mentally effected because they choose to murder with a knife!

We were lucky that Molenaar never hit most of the people he shot at but he tried to shoot many more, are you saying he would've been just as deadly with only a knife?! Would you have you prefered taking him on when he was armed with a knife rather than his SLR? How many people would have he endangered in that situation if he only had a knife. You can't claim that just because Molenaar had access to MSSA that he was no more dangerous or capable of carrying out murder.

Once again, I used Gray and Molenaar as an example of unhinged people being attracted to MSSAs. Should I use overseas examples of what weapons are used in spree killings since we don't have many spree killings here? 

They never expect to stop all murders with the law, but because it won't people seem to think it will be a waste.

----------


## gimp

You state that unhinged people are attracted to MSSAs, and therefore the guns are dangerous, despite the fact that only a tiny tiny fraction of murders (which are generally commited by unhinged people) are committed with them in civilised countries, including those where that type of rifle is much cheaper and more common and less restricted than NZ. Mass shootings with MSSA type rifles are scary and emotive but absolutely not significant numbers in the overall murder rate, especially in NZ, and if someone is planning on doing it they're going to have no qualms about breaking the E cat laws anyway. 

This is getting off base, the point is that further restricting pistol grips and other cosmetic features beyond the vetting etc at A cat level achieves nothing more than inconvenience and costing law abiding shooters money and time. 

You think it's not because 1 guy out of several hundred murderers in NZ had an illegally owned gun with that feature. It doesn't make sense, and restricting them didn't stop him from getting one anyway.
Yes there have been a handful of others overseas, Newtown (actually used a pistol I believe, AR15 was in his car or something), Port Arthur, Breivik in Norway, etc, but it's a tiny number compared to the overall amount of people that are murdered in other ways around the world and doesn't demonstrate any particular tendency for off balance people to go for that type of weapon, if anything the low number of murders with them in the US for example (rifles in total account for only 3.5% of murders) where they're totally unrestricted in most states beyond an age limit and background check if buying from an FFL indicates their unsuitability for murder.

----------


## gimp

People are going to commit murders. Only a tiny fraction of those who are completely free to obtain them, use rifles at all, let alone semi auto rifles with evil cosmetic features. 

Anyone who is going to break the law and commit a murder isn't going to care if they're breaking a gun law or two either. See for reference: Jan Molenaar.

----------


## Monsterbishi

> Personally, I find that a pistol grip on a rifle is more ergonomic than a traditional grip.


It's not just you, a pistol grip allows for a steadier grip using a small group of stronger muscles compared to the twisting action that is required to hold a rifle with a conventional stock.

----------


## Gemini

Hi guys, I started this thread. So think it is time to clarify what the original post was about.
I recently purchased an AR. My 2nd semi auto purchased in 13 years of being a A cat licenced firearm owner.
I have owned probably 30 bolt actions in that time. I hunt a lot. And I enjoy shooting.
I like to buy and try different rifles,  fix, tinker, customise my rifles. It's a hobby. A bloody expensive one, but one I really enjoy.

So my questions were about the pending changes. What modifications will be required to keep it at A cat std, if at all possible.

I did not want a pissing match. Or who killed who with what. Or for any of the crazy arse TROLLING that is going on.

More interested in time frame, and what stock will have to be fitted?

Also really interested in a 300 BLK as a suppressed subsonic.

But not because I am a nutter. But because I like to tinker.

Please STOP the arguments! Sorry to Tussock & co.

----------


## Happy

> It's not just you, a pistol grip allows for a steadier grip using a small group of stronger muscles compared to the twisting action that is required to hold a rifle with a conventional stock.


And as a person who has had two hand surgeries recently both hands plus a major shoulder surgery all due to misadventure I could not agree more I was the mongrel who put a rail under my 308 so I could fit a grip as couldnt hold on to the gun. Didn't work by the way so changed calibre   All good now tho . We do what we do. I suppose .

----------


## Clint Ruin

Last thing I heard was the stock on the rifle is not what they are looking at . They are going to look at the action of the rifle and the A or E classification will be based on that not on what type of stock it has.

But we are all in wait and see mode at the moment .

----------


## Digit

Ive heard different rumours from different AO's as to what is going to happen. Its interesting the info some of them are dishing out when actually none of them know any more than we do.
My best guess is that they will allow anyone with an A to migrate it to E if they want to. There maybe a licence cost involved and you will need to get an E-Cat safe. Im also guessing that they will allow the pistol grip semis to stay A in some sort of configuration - possibly with a thumbhole/drag/ stock or monsterman grip. This will be an interesting one as they would need to spec the interpretation of thumbhole/drag stock. GC have the monopoly on thumbholes at the moment and Im guessing they will hike the price just short of an E-Cat safe. I know of a couple of companies ready to manufacture a thumbhole option once the law is clarified.
Remember this is going to be a logistical nightmare for the AO's. They will probably be required to track down every A-Cat pistol grip Semi-Auto in the country - It will take a few years with insufficient staff numbers / cuts.
The above is my best guess based on a Joe Green led team. Unfortunately he's now gone - never thought I would say that.

----------


## Bill999

> Hi guys, I started this thread. So think it is time to clarify what the original post was about.
> I recently purchased an AR. My 2nd semi auto purchased in 13 years of being a A cat licenced firearm owner.
> I have owned probably 30 bolt actions in that time. I hunt a lot. And I enjoy shooting.
> I like to buy and try different rifles,  fix, tinker, customise my rifles. It's a hobby. A bloody expensive one, but one I really enjoy.
> 
> So my questions were about the pending changes. What modifications will be required to keep it at A cat std, if at all possible.
> 
> I did not want a pissing match. Or who killed who with what. Or for any of the crazy arse TROLLING that is going on.
> 
> ...


that ship has sailed mate, if you want answers its best to start a new thread with those direct questions
getting answers now is like pissing in the wind

----------


## Beavis

I have heard the Molenaar's SLR's were missing from an NZDF armory - can anyone verify?

A great number of Grey's victims were shot with a semi auto .22lr - heaps of those unrestricted

The last two mass shootings in Finland were committed with .22lr's

The Texas Uni shooting was done with a sawn off shotgun and a Remington 700

Derek Birds massacre was done with a CZ452 and a double barrel shotgun

----------


## dogmatix

> Last thing I heard was the stock on the rifle is not what they are looking at . They are going to look at the action of the rifle and the A or E classification will be based on that not on what type of stock it has.
> 
> But we are all in wait and see mode at the moment .


+1

That's what my understanding of the new powers given (orders under Council). They can now classify a rifle by type, rather than cosmetic features such as a psitol grip.

----------


## dogmatix

> Hi guys, I started this thread. So think it is time to clarify what the original post was about.
> I recently purchased an AR. My 2nd semi auto purchased in 13 years of being a A cat licenced firearm owner.
> I have owned probably 30 bolt actions in that time. I hunt a lot. And I enjoy shooting.
> I like to buy and try different rifles,  fix, tinker, customise my rifles. It's a hobby. A bloody expensive one, but one I really enjoy.
> 
> So my questions were about the pending changes. What modifications will be required to keep it at A cat std, if at all possible.
> 
> I did not want a pissing match. Or who killed who with what. Or for any of the crazy arse TROLLING that is going on.
> 
> ...


Best advice is get an E-Cat safe and to wait and see for the rest. 
Don't go spending money on a thumbhole stock, as that may be a waste of time if 'Council' define firearms by type.

----------


## FletchNZ

> +1
> 
> That's what my understanding of the new powers given (orders under Council). They can now classify a rifle by type, rather than cosmetic features such as a psitol grip.


That's my understanding too, though I believe if the NZ police do that they will be in for another shit fight in court as we have the rights to dispute it. I imagine this is something they will not rush in to and will possibly wait for some news worthy event to help get backing to any changes. 

At the end of the day an AR15 is a modern sporting rifle not an M4 or M16.

----------


## Scouser

Hi Gimp, dont want to hijack the present thread, but just wanted to say I totally agree with you!

I consider you and Beavis as the two AR15 forum 'gurus', i always take note of your comments in AR threads

My opinion in the thread was over the easy accessibility of 'high cap mags' and the fact anybody
can get one, in other words, you dont need an 'E cat FAL' to purchase one!

Im as pissed off as anybody about having to either, sell my AR if it becomes 'E cat' or spend extra
dosh to get to 'E cat' security....

Popular culture has caused the 'big two' of AK47 & AR15 to be 'demonised' by government & law enforcement
but as you know they only become 'mass killing' machines with 20 or 30 rd mags in them

My NEA 15 is presently in full 'sporting configuration' and i have a 'monsterman grip' as back up to hopefully 
beat the law change.....unless of course the government NOT the police make all AR15s E cat....

cheers Scouser

----------


## Rushy

> Pistol grips dont make guns more dangerous. .


They certainly don't Tussock.  Firearms owners are the only thing that make firearms dangerous and only a minority of them at best.

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## DAF

> Popular culture has caused the 'big two' of AK47 & AR15 to be 'demonised' by government & law enforcement
> but as you know they only become 'mass killing' machines with 20 or 30 rd mags in them
> 
> 
> cheers Scouser


I watched a shooting event the other day and I saw how fast the competitors  could change out a mag, at that point I felt the round limitation was is a bit pointless really

----------


## Beavis

> I watched a shooting event the other day and I saw how fast the competitors  could change out a mag, at that point I felt the round limitation was is a bit pointless really


Yea pretty much. I've got like 13? Can't even remember 5 and 7 round AK mags that I accumulated when I could get them cheap. That gives me basically the fire power of 3 30 round mags.  SKS is another good example. with a 7 round fixed mag and a pile of loaded stripper clips that's heaps of rounds you could put out. Mag restrictions start to look silly fast. I guess they're already undermined by the fact you can go and buy 30 round mags and you don't even need a license...

----------


## Scouser

> I watched a shooting event the other day and I saw how fast the competitors  could change out a mag, at that point I felt the round limitation was is a bit pointless really


I agree DAF, but im talking about the fuckwits/nutters/deathwish arseholes who go 'postal' in the good old US of A.......

A british RSM holds the world record for hitting a dinner plate sized gong at 300 yards using a 303 Lee Enfield in one minute.....38 shots!

but im not talking about that.....im talking about LEGISLATION TO PROHIBIT ANYONE PURCHASING A 'HI-CAP MAG' UNLESS THEY HAVE AN E-CAT FAL

If your A cat AR15 (like mine) is for hunting or target shooting, then you are only allowed a 7 rd cap mag.............

----------


## Scouser

> Yea pretty much. I've got like 13? Can't even remember 5 and 7 round AK mags that I accumulated when I could get them cheap. That gives me basically the fire power of 3 30 round mags.  SKS is another good example. with a 7 round fixed mag and a pile of loaded stripper clips that's heaps of rounds you could put out. Mag restrictions start to look silly fast. I guess they're already undermined by the fact you can go and buy 30 round mags and you don't even need a license...


Exactly Beavis....that is what i said in a different way yesterday.

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## JaseWalks

Facebook Photo Of Boy With Gun Sparks child Welfare... | Stuff.co.nz

Anyone see this today? A sign of things to come? the US is getting CRAZY!

----------


## Digit

Our facebook page features a mates 13 year old son with an AR in the title picture:
http://www.facebook.com/nzar15

NEAs facebook page features a kiwi kid in the facebook picture:
North Eastern Arms | Facebook

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## gimp

US assault weapons ban looks doomed - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


Excellent. Hopefully banpanic dies off! I want my shiny Noveske bits.

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## Beavis

I want my barrel which was apparently due in stock early Feb

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## mikee

> I want my barrel which was apparently due in stock early Feb


I want my stripped uppers............................................  .................................... ordered last April!!!

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## gimp

I haven't even ordered a barrel. Really should do that.

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## gimp

> I want my stripped uppers............................................  .................................... ordered last April!!!


What the hell brand stripped uppers are you waiting this long for? Who've you ordered them through?

----------


## dogmatix

I want a new STI or DD BCG to replace my Schmeisser one I put in the sonic cleaner without thinking.  :Oh Noes:

----------


## gimp

Have you worked out what's actually happened to it? Pics?

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## mikee

> What the hell brand stripped uppers are you waiting this long for? Who've you ordered them through?


DS Arms / Brownells. According to Sandy @ Brownells when you order they have to specify the Brand for the export permit, so they can't send you what they have but what you ordered and is specified on the paperwork . I am thinking of getting another permit and ordering something different. Already have everything else just being held up with the last bit which were ordered first. Now the rush will effect that too!

----------


## dogmatix

> Have you worked out what's actually happened to it? Pics?


Its removed some of the phosphate coating, so most of the BCG is now grey, not black. Also seems to have a rougher surface than before.

----------


## gimp

That sucks. Just shoot it so it gets covered in carbon. Good luck getting a BCG from anywhere in the US at the moment.


I'm waiting for the DD chromed ones to come back in stock, could be waiting a loooong time.

----------


## dogmatix

I'm not too fussed now (was at the time), its really only aged it by a few thousand rounds ahead of everything else.
There is a STI one I can get locally, but not cheap.

----------


## Beavis

> That sucks. Just shoot it so it gets covered in carbon. Good luck getting a BCG from anywhere in the US at the moment.
> 
> 
> I'm waiting for the DD chromed ones to come back in stock, could be waiting a loooong time.


They wouldn't ship me a DD BCG - told me it was significant military equipment. The chrome ones are AR15 carriers too, not M16.

----------


## gimp

Fucks sake. BROWNELLS!! They wouldn't ship me ASC 5rd mags either as they're not DDTC registered or some shit.

I know they're AR15 carriers, I don't mind as I'm going to get an adjustable gas block and I'm a sucker for the chromed look haha. Not going .223 this time...

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## Beavis

They're not on the last list that Sandy sent me. Was pissed to find B&C can no longer ship. The chrome ones are pretty nice, a well finished phosphate group is nice too though. .300blk?

Don't blame Brownells it's the US govt's retarded rules to make sure their gear doesn't end up with the Haji's in Afghanistan or what ever.

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## gimp

> .300blk?
> .


Nah, too slow from a short barrel and the BC sucks.


I'm going to have to just call someone and see what the hell parts I can actually export.

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## Littledog

> What's your point? The 84s pretty much is an AK47 but in .223. Looks the same and functions the same.


Well 4 out of 11 killed with a nasty semi auto assult style thingee, that leaves 7 killed with something else. A pistol x1? and a lever action 22lr x6? those pesky .22lr's again. Ban Ban Ban them I say!
But that wont happen, cause the ole 22lr is not fancied in the movies. But those evil black guns???

----------


## Glu

> Its removed some of the phosphate coating, so most of the BCG is now grey, not black. Also seems to have a rougher surface than before.


It should be anodised if it is alloy which means it should be able to be re- anodised

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## gimp

BCG are steel

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## Beavis

It sucks balls and you shouldn't need one. My opinion.

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## gimp

People hate spending cash and it has a rep for being hard to get. It shouldn't be, the police should want as many people as possible to get it, increased vetting and security. Their policy is really illogical.

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## dogmatix

> People hate spending cash and it has a rep for being hard to get. It shouldn't be, the police should want as many people as possible to get it, increased vetting and security. Their policy is really illogical.


And they can record the details of the actual firearms on their 'database', which you would think was their whole motive anyway.

----------


## gimp

> I dont need the magazines, or anything like that. Record number of rounds through mine to date is 4 in a row. And that was not fun, hare still got away! (check your windage people). 
> 
> Got no issues with better security though. I have the safe already, bought it to keep the existing lot safe.


Don't say need. Need doesn't matter.

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## veitnamcam

> People hate spending cash and it has a rep for being hard to get. It shouldn't be, the police should want as many people as possible to get it, increased vetting and security. Their policy is really illogical.


What is the cost and extra vetting required ?

Ie what are the requirements.
 and the same for pistols if anyone can outline it for me .

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## gimp

> What is the cost and extra vetting required ?
> 
> Ie what are the requirements.
>  and the same for pistols if anyone can outline it for me .
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


E-cat:
$200 fee for the endorsement
Safe that meets the requirements (at least $1000 usually)
2 referees, can't remember the exact requirements 
Interview
Police want 'a legitimate reason' to want it. (It should be that they have to have a legitimate reason not to give you one)

B endorsement:
$200 endorsement fee
Safe (can be cheaper than E cat cos it doesn't have to be so big, but can use E cat rifle safe for pistols as well)
Member of pistol club for 6 months
12 club events attended in those 6 months
Member of PNZ
Pass PNZ test
2 referees 
Interview

To keep B you need to attend 12 club events per year

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## Beavis

4 referees, two of them must have endorsements.

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## gimp

> 4 referees, two of them must have endorsements.


Which screws most people straight off the bat.

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## Digit

New 9 Gun E-Cat safes as cheap as $660 buy now...
GUN SAFE 9guns E CAT | Trade Me
GUN SAFE 9guns E CAT | Trade Me
E cat gun safe | Trade Me

----------


## Toby

> Which screws most people straight off the bat.


That would be me, I dont know anyone with a E-cat. Then my only reason for wanting it is so I can have fun which I guess it isn't a valid reason

----------


## gimp

> That would be me, I dont know anyone with a E-cat. Then my only reason for wanting it is so I can have fun which I guess it isn't a valid reason


If there isn't any valid reason why you SHOULDN'T have one (criminal, mentally unstable), then that is a perfectly valid reason, 100% as valid as 'I want a bolt action to go hunting for fun'.

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## Toby

Meh, I dont need my E-cat anyway

----------


## FletchNZ

I picked up my e cat safe for $450, an edge 5 gun one on special. 

The e cat application form only asks for 2 referees and it doesn't say anywhere they have to have e cat licences, only one of my references had their e cat.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

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## FletchNZ

Yes, I would say so because police HQ approve the licences not the local AO. The AOs do the interviews and paperwork then send it off to be approved but the end decision happens in Welly.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

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## Savage1

You don't have to have referees with an E endorsement, they just prefer them as they are generally good referees, you must have at least two with a FAL if you don't know any one who is endorsed.

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## ishoot10s

> But the "good reason" clause and the two existing E-cat referees rules, thats not really fair. Makes it to hard for someone who legitimately wants one to get it, and really has no bearing on the outcome


Not really, it encourages you to join a club, serving E cat purposes (Service Rifle etc), where you will meet people who might agree to become referees for you after they've observed you on their range a few times. Already being a member of such a club will almost certainly improve your chances of successfully getting the endorsement and, in fact, for B category, it's a prerequisite.

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## Beavis

Pretty sure it says in the act that two of them must be endorsed or in the firearms industry. I know my AO required at least two E cat referees or he won't process the app.

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## foxhound

> Pretty sure it says in the act that two of them must be endorsed or in the firearms industry. I know my AO required at least two E cat referees or he won't process the app.


Yea thats correct, just got my e cat in the mail this week, two referees that have known you for a while and both have E cat and serving members of a recognised club or organisation. And can demonstrate long term experience with firearms. I belong to two clubs nzda, and another club that shoots military rifles. 
Applied for licence mid jan and had safe installed before AO came around for inspection. ( pays to ring your AO like i did and ask about the extra security beforehand just speeds up the process)

----------


## Happy

> Hi guys, I started this thread. So think it is time to clarify what the original post was about.
> I recently purchased an AR. My 2nd semi auto purchased in 13 years of being a A cat licenced firearm owner.
> I have owned probably 30 bolt actions in that time. I hunt a lot. And I enjoy shooting.
> I like to buy and try different rifles,  fix, tinker, customise my rifles. It's a hobby. A bloody expensive one, but one I really enjoy.
> 
> So my questions were about the pending changes. What modifications will be required to keep it at A cat std, if at all possible.
> 
> I did not want a pissing match. Or who killed who with what. Or for any of the crazy arse TROLLING that is going on.
> 
> ...





> 4 referees, two of them must have endorsements.


Sorry going back a step can you list what we need to move from a correct A Cat to E so we can do the spending part before the application part Cheers

----------


## foxhound

Im sure just belonging nzda would be sufficient, as we do service rifle shoots at our club aswell, I bought a small e cat safe as soon as got wind of the pending rule changes.
Get others who have E cat help you fill out the questions on the application, preferbly members from the same club who can vouch that you shoot service rifle within your club.
I think the reasons for wanting a E cat if you already own an A cat ar15 will be different, time will tell?

----------


## steven

> +1
> 
> That's what my understanding of the new powers given (orders under Council). They can now classify a rifle by type, rather than cosmetic features such as a psitol grip.


Dont understand that, its splitting hairs on banning one semi-auto and not another IMHO, a pure political sop. You either ban or Cat E all semi-autos or none, that would be logical (it may not be fair). I mean whats the significant difference between a SKS, SVD and AK47?  really not a hell of a lot, shape change of a few parts, working principal is essentially the same and one cartridge is 39mm and the other 54Rmm. 

regards...

----------


## veitnamcam

Doesn't look like i will ever have a b cat. Minimum once a month at club would just never happen unless i was retired or something.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## gimp

> Doesn't look like i will ever have a b cat. Minimum once a month at club would just never happen unless i was retired or something.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


It's a pain. 

The Otago Pistol Club has nice facilities though, there are like 5 ranges, one of them a 50m range you can use rimfire and pistol calibre rifles on with covered firing points, couple of 25m ranges, club room with a wood stove, great for some casual shooting in winter on days when the weather is crap. 15 minutes drive from my place and I can park right beside it. I miss it.

I wish we had a similar quality rifle range that we could use! Only current one is NZDA range which is every second Saturday for a couple of hours, have to park on the side of the road and walk a km or so down a shit muddy hilly track through bush, pine plantation etc, facilities are minimal (3 target boards and 2 benches), ground is clay and it's basically unusable if there's any rain. Small firing area, often packed with really unsafe people.

Don't have the time to commit to get and retain my B at the moment though, unfortunately. Maybe when I do, I'll convince the OPC to build a range for 25/50/100m centrefire rifles.

----------


## foxhound

Our nzda club in the north is great, drive to the door can shoot out to 600 covered shooting up to 12 shooters at a time, plus a bench and a running boar range aswell, all members are safe and good blokes, members can use range other times on non range days, 3 other clubs use it as well. works well. One problem no DEER in the north that are free range or wild.

----------


## dogmatix

> Our nzda club in the north is great, drive to the door can shoot out to 600 covered shooting up to 12 shooters at a time, plus a bench and a running boar range aswell, all members are safe and good blokes, members can use range other times on non range days, 3 other clubs use it as well. works well. One problem no DEER in the north that are free range or wild.


No deer worth chasing.  :Wink:

----------


## Kscott

> New 9 Gun E-Cat safes as cheap as $660 buy now...
> GUN SAFE 9guns E CAT | Trade Me
> GUN SAFE 9guns E CAT | Trade Me
> E cat gun safe | Trade Me


Looks interesting. There's a Kilwell 10 gun I've been looking at for $1000 odd for my B & E. I wonder if a safe is a safe is a safe, or is there something with the cheaper ones that I may regret saving the $300 odd later ?

----------


## Digit

> Looks interesting. There's a Kilwell 10 gun I've been looking at for $1000 odd for my B & E. I wonder if a safe is a safe is a safe, or is there something with the cheaper ones that I may regret saving the $300 odd later ?


Safes are all different. Ive got the Kilwell 10 gun E-Cat and the Sentry 36 gun E-Cat and there is no comparison. The Kilwell is significantly better quality. I wouldnt judge based on price.

----------


## Kscott

Cheers. That's what I thought but it's always good to hear it from someone else  :Wink:

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## Haydendev

> Yea thats correct, just got my e cat in the mail this week, two referees that have known you for a while and both have E cat and serving members of a recognised club or organisation. And can demonstrate long term experience with firearms. I belong to two clubs nzda, and another club that shoots military rifles. 
> Applied for licence mid jan and had safe installed before AO came around for inspection. ( pays to ring your AO like i did and ask about the extra security beforehand just speeds up the process)


Guess depends on your AO, as for my E endorsement neither of my referees had their E cat, they are however both members of a recognized gun club etc, i think that is the more important point. in fact one was my father and the other was my uncle. haha

----------


## foxhound

Im sure just belonging nzda would be sufficient, as we do service rifle shoots at our club aswell, I bought a small e cat safe as soon as got wind of the pending rule changes.
Get others who have E cat help you fill out the questions on the application, preferbly members from the same club who can vouch that you shoot service rifle within your club.
I think the reasons for wanting a E cat if you already own an A cat ar15 will be different, time will tell?

----------


## steven

> +1
> 
> That's what my understanding of the new powers given (orders under Council). They can now classify a rifle by type, rather than cosmetic features such as a psitol grip.


Dont understand that, its splitting hairs on banning one semi-auto and not another IMHO, a pure political sop. You either ban or Cat E all semi-autos or none, that would be logical (it may not be fair). I mean whats the significant difference between a SKS, SVD and AK47?  really not a hell of a lot, shape change of a few parts, working principal is essentially the same and one cartridge is 39mm and the other 54Rmm. 

regards...

----------


## veitnamcam

Doesn't look like i will ever have a b cat. Minimum once a month at club would just never happen unless i was retired or something.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## gimp

> Doesn't look like i will ever have a b cat. Minimum once a month at club would just never happen unless i was retired or something.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


It's a pain. 

The Otago Pistol Club has nice facilities though, there are like 5 ranges, one of them a 50m range you can use rimfire and pistol calibre rifles on with covered firing points, couple of 25m ranges, club room with a wood stove, great for some casual shooting in winter on days when the weather is crap. 15 minutes drive from my place and I can park right beside it. I miss it.

I wish we had a similar quality rifle range that we could use! Only current one is NZDA range which is every second Saturday for a couple of hours, have to park on the side of the road and walk a km or so down a shit muddy hilly track through bush, pine plantation etc, facilities are minimal (3 target boards and 2 benches), ground is clay and it's basically unusable if there's any rain. Small firing area, often packed with really unsafe people.

Don't have the time to commit to get and retain my B at the moment though, unfortunately. Maybe when I do, I'll convince the OPC to build a range for 25/50/100m centrefire rifles.

----------


## foxhound

Our nzda club in the north is great, drive to the door can shoot out to 600 covered shooting up to 12 shooters at a time, plus a bench and a running boar range aswell, all members are safe and good blokes, members can use range other times on non range days, 3 other clubs use it as well. works well. One problem no DEER in the north that are free range or wild.

----------


## dogmatix

> Our nzda club in the north is great, drive to the door can shoot out to 600 covered shooting up to 12 shooters at a time, plus a bench and a running boar range aswell, all members are safe and good blokes, members can use range other times on non range days, 3 other clubs use it as well. works well. One problem no DEER in the north that are free range or wild.


No deer worth chasing.  :Wink:

----------


## Kscott

> New 9 Gun E-Cat safes as cheap as $660 buy now...
> GUN SAFE 9guns E CAT | Trade Me
> GUN SAFE 9guns E CAT | Trade Me
> E cat gun safe | Trade Me


Looks interesting. There's a Kilwell 10 gun I've been looking at for $1000 odd for my B & E. I wonder if a safe is a safe is a safe, or is there something with the cheaper ones that I may regret saving the $300 odd later ?

----------


## Digit

> Looks interesting. There's a Kilwell 10 gun I've been looking at for $1000 odd for my B & E. I wonder if a safe is a safe is a safe, or is there something with the cheaper ones that I may regret saving the $300 odd later ?


Safes are all different. Ive got the Kilwell 10 gun E-Cat and the Sentry 36 gun E-Cat and there is no comparison. The Kilwell is significantly better quality. I wouldnt judge based on price.

----------


## Kscott

Cheers. That's what I thought but it's always good to hear it from someone else  :Wink:

----------


## Haydendev

> Yea thats correct, just got my e cat in the mail this week, two referees that have known you for a while and both have E cat and serving members of a recognised club or organisation. And can demonstrate long term experience with firearms. I belong to two clubs nzda, and another club that shoots military rifles. 
> Applied for licence mid jan and had safe installed before AO came around for inspection. ( pays to ring your AO like i did and ask about the extra security beforehand just speeds up the process)


Guess depends on your AO, as for my E endorsement neither of my referees had their E cat, they are however both members of a recognized gun club etc, i think that is the more important point. in fact one was my father and the other was my uncle. haha

----------

