# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  bolt failure P14

## mucko

hi chaps i will follow this up with some photos @gundoc you opinion please. i have(had) a P14 chambered in 264WM it hasn't done a lot of work on the barrel from new say around 200 rounds. nothing regarded as hot just played around with various loads and projectiles i have never loaded near max book value. i began a ladder test on sunday with a load of 61.2grs of 2213sc, start next was 61.4grs. pulled the trigger and the rifle destroyed itself. on investigation today the whole bolt face and recoil lugs blew to pieces in the receiver sending hot gas though the bolt and inflicting powder burns to my face. it looks as though there was fatigue in the boly metal and looks as thou both lugs had aged cracks. does anyone out there still use P14 or P17 beyond standard chamberings and has anyone else seen these rifles blow up before. cheers Mike

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## WallyR

Happy it was only your face that suffered mate, and not pieces of your head/hands/arms going AWOL.
Metallurgy back then was a bit 'hit/miss' compared to the last 50-odd years, and if the history of the rifle is not known, it may have been mistreated by a previous owner/shooter.

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## mucko



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## mucko

> Happy it was only your face that suffered mate, and not pieces of your head/hands/arms going AWOL.
> Metallurgy back then was a bit 'hit/miss' compared to the last 50-odd years, and if the history of the rifle is not known, it may have been mistreated by a previous owner/shooter.


im not sweating the small stuff now that for sure.

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## mucko



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## stevodog

Shit, what an awful fright and unwanted reminder of variable metallurgy.
Ironically, as you know they choose these to build big customs on as they were cheap and over engineered.

Maybe have a doc Check your eye for damage. Bit of cream and a patch to rest it might help.
A stiff drink has helped all round no doubt.

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## Micky Duck

oh well...find a new donor action to fit the barrel to....you got away with it without major injury...to some extent the rifles action "failed sucessfully"...Ive read elsewhere about the metal being suss on some of the older mauser actions,particularly if they have been played with....will watch this with interest to see what the gurus have to say.

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## Husky1600

Go buy a lotto ticket, and if you want to get rid of the whole bloody thing I'd be happy to take the barrel. Im very happy we aint reading a post with you laid up in hospital or worse.

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## 300CALMAN

faaaa lucky you kept your head!

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## swazi

Wow thats terrible. Glad youre ok. Was yours a Eddystone, Remington or Winchester?

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## Sideshow

Do you know what the original caliber used to be?
Was the bolt head machined to fit the new caliber?

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## mucko

> Shit, what an awful fright and unwanted reminder of variable metallurgy.
> Ironically, as you know they choose these to build big customs on as they were cheap and over engineered.
> 
> Maybe have a doc Check your eye for damage. Bit of cream and a patch to rest it might help.
> A stiff drink has helped all round no doubt.


went to eye clinc today referal from a&e yesterday. minor marks from gunpowder get recheck in 3 weeks

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## mucko

> oh well...find a new donor action to fit the barrel to....you got away with it without major injury...to some extent the rifles action "failed sucessfully"...Ive read elsewhere about the metal being suss on some of the older mauser actions,particularly if they have been played with....will watch this with interest to see what the gurus have to say.


its a bsa sportered P14 ex .303 was rechambered by gunsmith and done right.

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## mucko

done that.

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## mucko

i brought the lotto ticket today

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## mucko

very lucky

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## mucko

eddystone

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## mucko

> Do you know what the original caliber used to be?
> Was the bolt head machined to fit the new caliber?


.303 rechambered by reputed gunsmith

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## veitnamcam

Wow!
Glad you were not more seriously hurt!

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## Sideshow

Yes wasnt blaming the GS. Also very glad your ok!
Out of the millions that were made someone has to get the lemon :O O:  you may never find out why this happened. Could have been the last pore from the pot. Could have been the bolt was dropped in such a way that it was weakened. Might even have been a double load.
At lest you still have all your digits and toes....you may not have wanted new undies for Christmas and I dont want to ruin the surprise, but...

In saying all of the above if you do find why I am interested.
Load wise do you have any more of the same? Maybe pull those and weight them. 
Not sure how you could go about having the bolt tested.
Most of us have the wall of shame for reloads gone astray....thats sure a good one to put up there. :Have A Nice Day:  with them if you dont then wow what a way to start :Wink:

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## gundoc

A full inspection of all the bits is needed to come to any conclusion, however I wouldn't mind betting it was an Eddystone action.  They are notorious for being as hard as the hobs of hell and a bit on the brittle side.  They were perfectly fine with .303 loads at around 45,000 psi but the .264 and similar magnums run up 60,000 psi.  At those operating pressures it does not take much to get a case head failure which is what I suspect has happened, putting high pressure gas into the bolt body through the firing pin hole.  The black carbon in the hole is a good clue, and the gas pressure would have forced the firing pin backwards opening the passage for the gas which has then put the strain at the rear of the lugs inside the bolt body.  There is some faint evidence of a previous crack that could have totally given way.  What saved you from massive trauma was the bolt design that makes the root of the bolt handle the safety lug.  The Winchester actions are the preferred choice for magnum conversions.  BSA used the old P14 and M17 actions for their post-war sporting rifles and removed the original markings during construction.

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## swazi

Yes have heard Eddystone have questionable receivers.

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## pope2506

> oh well...find a new donor action to fit the barrel to....you got away with it without major injury...to some extent the rifles action "failed sucessfully"...Ive read elsewhere about the metal being suss on some of the older mauser actions,particularly if they have been played with....will watch this with interest to see what the gurus have to say.


MD is this what you are taking about in the mauser 98 actions ,the video presenter talks about the diff in psi pressure between the 308 and 7.62x51 rounds, it might be why the p14 blew up, too much pressure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5zFEKrA7o8

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## Cordite

Was the chamber and brass clean and dry?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...mh9m_s6O7zVuRe

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## mucko

> Yes wasn’t blaming the GS. Also very glad your ok!
> Out of the millions that were made someone has to get the lemon you may never find out why this happened. Could have been the last pore from the pot. Could have been the bolt was dropped in such a way that it was weakened. Might even have been a double load.
> At lest you still have all your digits and toes....you may not have wanted new undies for Christmas and I don’t want to ruin the surprise, but...
> 
> In saying all of the above if you do find why I am interested.
> Load wise do you have any more of the same? Maybe pull those and weight them. 
> Not sure how you could go about having the bolt tested.
> Most of us have the wall of shame for reloads gone astray....that’s sure a good one to put up there. with them if you don’t then wow what a way to start


yeah done all that mate, the remaining string was 61.2grs 2213sc, i use a rcbs electronic powder measure and double check on beam scales, there's not enough room in case for double charge and i keep a fairly good reload dairy and have good checks in place.

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## mucko

> Was the chamber and brass clean and dry?
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...mh9m_s6O7zVuRe


yes it was mint minus the base.

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## mucko

> A full inspection of all the bits is needed to come to any conclusion, however I wouldn't mind betting it was an Eddystone action.  They are notorious for being as hard as the hobs of hell and a bit on the brittle side.  They were perfectly fine with .303 loads at around 45,000 psi but the .264 and similar magnums run up 60,000 psi.  At those operating pressures it does not take much to get a case head failure which is what I suspect has happened, putting high pressure gas into the bolt body through the firing pin hole.  The black carbon in the hole is a good clue, and the gas pressure would have forced the firing pin backwards opening the passage for the gas which has then put the strain at the rear of the lugs inside the bolt body.  There is some faint evidence of a previous crack that could have totally given way.  What saved you from massive trauma was the bolt design that makes the root of the bolt handle the safety lug.  The Winchester actions are the preferred choice for magnum conversions.  BSA used the old P14 and M17 actions for their post-war sporting rifles and removed the original markings during construction.


your right on the money @gundoc it is a eddystone, its a bsa sportered rifle, i was running around that 58,000psi mark. im more then happy to send you the bits to analyze. the firing pin was forced back and was about 1/8th of a turn from releasing. as you pointed out you can see previous cracking, probably going to get all my bolts xrayed for cracks as i have a 30-06ai and a 6.5-06 both in P17 Actions.

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## mucko

> Yes wasn’t blaming the GS. Also very glad your ok!
> Out of the millions that were made someone has to get the lemon you may never find out why this happened. Could have been the last pore from the pot. Could have been the bolt was dropped in such a way that it was weakened. Might even have been a double load.
> At lest you still have all your digits and toes....you may not have wanted new undies for Christmas and I don’t want to ruin the surprise, but...
> 
> In saying all of the above if you do find why I am interested.
> Load wise do you have any more of the same? Maybe pull those and weight them. 
> Not sure how you could go about having the bolt tested.
> Most of us have the wall of shame for reloads gone astray....that’s sure a good one to put up there. with them if you don’t then wow what a way to start


it was a eye opener for sure, im healing fast, i even did a burn test with remaining case powder to compare with powder from the containers to confirm it was the correct powder. ive gone over everything i did and i am comfortable that i didnt stuff up. and bloody glad i didnt get a bolt through my face.

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## wanneroo

> it was a eye opener for sure, im healing fast, i even did a burn test with remaining case powder to compare with powder from the containers to confirm it was the correct powder. ive gone over everything i did and i am comfortable that i didnt stuff up. and bloody glad i didnt get a bolt through my face.


Always wear eye pro.

I saw a guy this year that had a Remington 700 blow and the bolt went back through his eye and took it out, so he's got one eye now.  Apparently he got a significant payout from Remington after he got lawyers involved.  He had no eye pro on, good impact resistant eye pro might have helped.

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## csmiffy

> A full inspection of all the bits is needed to come to any conclusion, however I wouldn't mind betting it was an Eddystone action.  They are notorious for being as hard as the hobs of hell and a bit on the brittle side.  They were perfectly fine with .303 loads at around 45,000 psi but the .264 and similar magnums run up 60,000 psi.  At those operating pressures it does not take much to get a case head failure which is what I suspect has happened, putting high pressure gas into the bolt body through the firing pin hole.  The black carbon in the hole is a good clue, and the gas pressure would have forced the firing pin backwards opening the passage for the gas which has then put the strain at the rear of the lugs inside the bolt body.  There is some faint evidence of a previous crack that could have totally given way.  What saved you from massive trauma was the bolt design that makes the root of the bolt handle the safety lug.  The Winchester actions are the preferred choice for magnum conversions.  BSA used the old P14 and M17 actions for their post-war sporting rifles and removed the original markings during construction.


  @gundoc interesting.

So in this case (obviously a bit more investigation needed) it wasn't actually the action that has failed? More so the case and that has found the weak point, in this instance a possibly weak bolt?
 @mucko that's shithouse but thank feck you are ok.
On a lighter note you don't have a slightly used 264 barrel for sale?

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## csmiffy

@gundoc I would also like to ask if you can crack test them yourself with industrial crack testing methods (aerosol type)? have used these a bit here and there over the years at work.
Otherwise I'll stup up the 20 bucks or so and give them to Zac for squiz.
I have a couple that it would pay to get looked at, although the reports seem to say the actions are the weak points usually not the bolts

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## NRT

> Attachment 126717Attachment 126718Attachment 126719


Christmas decorations up a bit early this year

Sent from my TA-1025 using Tapatalk

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## dogmatix

Holy moly.
Glad you are ok Mucko.

Personally I wouldn’t rechamber 102-103 year old receivers in a Magnum chambering.
But you wouldn’t expect that of a Mauser action.

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## mucko

> @gundoc interesting.
> 
> So in this case (obviously a bit more investigation needed) it wasn't actually the action that has failed? More so the case and that has found the weak point, in this instance a possibly weak bolt?
>  @mucko that's shithouse but thank feck you are ok.
> On a lighter note you don't have a slightly used 264 barrel for sale?


i have a douglas #6 profile in mint condition. 1-9 twist $$$ offers

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## scotty

> A full inspection of all the bits is needed to come to any conclusion, however I wouldn't mind betting it was an Eddystone action.  They are notorious for being as hard as the hobs of hell and a bit on the brittle side.


interesting ...... good having experts around  i was looking at the pic and thought the steel looked a bit too porous almost like cast but i dont know anything about these things so thought i would wait and watch with interest...... is it normal for the steel to be so porous?

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## csmiffy

mmmmm
called my bluff I think. I was going to tap you up for a 303 barrel. that would probably be cheaper
264 win mag......be nice to wack on the 25-303 if that turns to shit

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## gundoc

Commercial crack testing does work OK but it cannot reveal inherent hardening problems with steel itself, only existing cracks.  In this regard the Eddystone actions have always been a precarious proposition for high intensity cartridges (a bit like the low number Springfields).  Frankly, the prices of modern magnum caliber rifles are so cheap that they are a far superior basis for a custom rifle.  If you just want a good shooter then you are spoiled for choice these days.  A dollar saved in the wrong area is not always a wise investment!

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## mucko

> Commercial crack testing does work OK but it cannot reveal inherent hardening problems with steel itself, only existing cracks.  In this regard the Eddystone actions have always been a precarious proposition for high intensity cartridges (a bit like the low number Springfields).  Frankly, the prices of modern magnum caliber rifles are so cheap that they are a far superior basis for a custom rifle.  If you just want a good shooter then you are spoiled for choice these days.  A dollar saved in the wrong area is not always a wise investment!


whats your thoughts on the 6.5-06 in a P17 action and also 30-06ai.

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## swazi

> whats your thoughts on the 6.5-06 in a P17 action and also 30-06ai.


Make sure its not an Eddystone  :Thumbsup:

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## gundoc

Any good condition M17 will handle either cartridge well but I made sure I built my own .30/06 long range rifle on a Winchester M17 action.  M17 actions by Eddystone, Remington and Winchester were made of nickel steel as opposed to the carbon steel of the earlier P14.

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## stevodog

That's it mucko, back on the horse :Thumbsup:

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## Mooseman

Hell Mucko that was a bit close for comfort. Glad there was no major injury involved. Might be a bit shy to pull the trigger again on the 264 Mag.

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## mucko

> @gundoc interesting.
> 
> So in this case (obviously a bit more investigation needed) it wasn't actually the action that has failed? More so the case and that has found the weak point, in this instance a possibly weak bolt?
>  @mucko that's shithouse but thank feck you are ok.
> On a lighter note you don't have a slightly used 264 barrel for sale?


the fracturing bolt allowed the case to seperate it looks like the recoil lugs let go.

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## mucko

> Any good condition M17 will handle either cartridge well but I made sure I built my own .30/06 long range rifle on a Winchester M17 action.  M17 actions by Eddystone, Remington and Winchester were made of nickel steel as opposed to the carbon steel of the earlier P14.


the 6.5/06 is running psi in the 50's the 30/06ai i dont have pressure data but its pushing 200ft/sc faster then standard 30/06. would x raying them be of any benefit.

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## mucko

> Hell Mucko that was a bit close for comfort. Glad there was no major injury involved. Might be a bit shy to pull the trigger again on the 264 Mag.


hey mate, once i sort a new action it will be sweet. its just a barrel now action good for parts as it bent. in every way.

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## gundoc

6.5/06 and .30/06 run in the same pressure range. X-rays wont reveal as much as conventional crack testing.  If there was some major flaw (inclusion of foreign matter, etc) in the steel an x-ray would probably pick it up, but a major problem would usually be picked up in the proof testing which is in the order of 75,000 psi.

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## veitnamcam

I am not a gunsmith.
I dont work on guns for a living.

However I do do crack repair on a weekly basis, some non critical some extremely critical.

Having used penitrant dyes, mag particle testing and sending stuff away for xray reguarly I can say penitrant dyes would be a total waste of time and produce a unclear result on something like a bolt.....where the dyes are good is where you can see a crack and are looking for other cracks or the end of it on say a big housing or something like that....large non critical parts =good.

Mag particle testing with an experienced operator would pick it up tho most would be used to dealing with much larger parts so some could be missed.

Xray "should" pick up anything.....if the guy or girl looking at it knows their game.

If you are paying for it then tell them of the failure and what to look for.

Its your vision/life.

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## Jaco Goosen

Glad your OK - you sure are a lucky man.

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## mucko

> Glad your OK - you sure are a lucky man.


heck yeah man so lucky my dad wasnt picking body up off the paddock. even the extractor was blown to pieces only have the rear piece left the band that goes around the bolt was wrapped around the action. action is to bent to use. have a timmny trigger and a handful of bits left.

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## Tommy

@mucko, you win the NZHS award for most improved looks for 2019 though  :Thumbsup: 

Jokes aside, glad you kept your sight, that's a fucking biggie

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## Sideshow

> heck yeah man so lucky my dad wasnt picking body up off the paddock. even the extractor was blown to pieces only have the rear piece left the band that goes around the bolt was wrapped around the action. action is to bent to use. have a timmny trigger and a handful of bits left.


Man well what ever survived has to go on the next build.....as all the jinxed bits got fecked on that last round so only the good luck bits are left?   :Thumbsup:

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## Woody

@mucko. Glad it was no worse mate. Couple of questions. Forgive me please if you have considered these points, which is probable.
Trim length of cases compared to chamber length; was there sufficient clearance?
Seating depth of ogive relative to lands? I.E. Avoid jam.
Hot primers?
Heavy walled brass?
Basic stuff, I know, and most likely you had those things already sorted. The other engineering issues are something I am not expert in so cant comment on those.
All the best for fast recovery.

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## Boaraxa

Crikey , bloody mess mate , buy yourself another rifle for Christmas .

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## Gapped axe

Sneeze Mike that's bloody close. At least you get Christmas with your family. Get well soon mate and enjoy your break.

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## mucko

> @mucko, you win the NZHS award for most improved looks for 2019 though 
> 
> Jokes aside, glad you kept your sight, that's a fucking biggie


Wife reckons its a improvement

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## mucko

> @mucko. Glad it was no worse mate. Couple of questions. Forgive me please if you have considered these points, which is probable.
> Trim length of cases compared to chamber length; was there sufficient clearance?
> Seating depth of ogive relative to lands? I.E. Avoid jam.
> Hot primers?
> Heavy walled brass?
> Basic stuff, I know, and most likely you had those things already sorted. The other engineering issues are something I am not expert in so cant comment on those.
> All the best for fast recovery.


case length was fine, 
huge jump to the lands about 200 thou mag box restricted coal to around book value. 
federal mag primers
norma brass, had some loose primer pockets, never had tight fitting cases never had one hard to close.
checked burn rate to confirm correct powder.
metal were recoil lugs broke were a different colour to the fracture through the gas port suggesting a out fatigue pattern.
if i did something wrong i havent found it yet.
i surmise that when the bolt let go the ass blew out of the case, i dont have much of the brass base left, i haven't found evidence through reloading diary and my systems that i overloaded or produced a round outside the specs of the adi manual, pressure would of been around 58,000psi   and .8gr below max book load.

hope you and the boss are have a nice Christmas

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## mucko

> Crikey , bloody mess mate , buy yourself another rifle for Christmas .


i have a few spare ones for now. lol

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## mucko

> Sneeze Mike that's bloody close. At least you get Christmas with your family. Get well soon mate and enjoy your break.


cheers mate, it could of gone so much worse then what i got away with. black eye already fading but still got to be careful not to strain the eye.

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## Woody

@mucko. Fair enough. Just one thought. Seems more likely to me that case failed by head separation before the bolt. When you mentioned loose primer pockets I thought to myself that cases may be on the way out. Suggest you see if you have any cases left. Take into a dark room and look into them using a tiny light.Look for a dark groove up little from the web. I had one give way on extraction a few years ago. When I checked others I found several more. Resizing off the shoulder instead of off the belt is the only way to control this. The long chamber in that rifle was stretching brand new Norma brass about 12thou at shoulder, which transferred brass from above the web. Incipient Case head separation is sometimes hard to detect especially in belted magnums but I understand can in wordt case scenario create the situation like yours.

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## mucko

> @mucko. Fair enough. Just one thought. Seems more likely to me that case failed by head separation before the bolt. When you mentioned loose primer pockets I thought to myself that cases may be on the way out. Suggest you see if you have any cases left. Take into a dark room and look into them using a tiny light.Look for a dark groove up little from the web. I had one give way on extraction a few years ago. When I checked others I found several more. Resizing off the shoulder instead of off the belt is the only way to control this. The long chamber in that rifle was stretching brand new Norma brass about 12thou at shoulder, which transferred brass from above the web. Incipient Case head separation is sometimes hard to detect especially in belted magnums but I understand can in wordt case scenario create the situation like yours.


the cases were alway full length resized cases only done about 5 rounds each and nothing hot. im going to pull all the projectiles and bin the cases but will check them first.

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## jakewire

Really glad your ok mate.

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## Woody

@mucko. Yep. I found if I full length resized I had case head separation within 5 loads. Went to sizing for headspace off the shoulder which extended case life a bit.

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## mucko

> Really glad your ok mate.


cheers mate, im healing fast and thought doing a thread about it might find some answers to what happened and maybe save someone else going thou it.

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## mucko

> @mucko. Yep. I found if I full length resized I had case head separation within 5 loads. Went to sizing for headspace off the shoulder which extended case life a bit.


i had a google of failed h&h cases all the images show them failing about 4mm above the belt, from whats left of my it failed at the belt lower then where the die gets to. its hard to tell how thick it should of been or to tell if the case failed then the bolt or bolt then case. i would of thought a failed case would just gas out the ports and not blow it apart.

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## Woody

@mucko. Fair comment. Its jusy a possibility to consider is all. As you correctly state, head separation usually occurs a bit above the belt. Certainly in my experience too. 
The final analysis of cause will be of interest to all on here who reload. It is intriguing , but bloody bad luck it occurred at all.

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## mucko

> @mucko. Fair comment. Its jusy a possibility to consider is all. As you correctly state, head separation usually occurs a bit above the belt. Certainly in my experience too. 
> The final analysis of cause will be of interest to all on here who reload. It is intriguing , but bloody bad luck it occurred at all.


its all good mate, right or wrong i would like piece of mind to find the right answer to what happened, if there's lapse in my reload procedure i can improve that if its random metallurgy causing random bolt failure then i simply move on and buy a custom action brandnew that will handle the 62,000psi i might run, its been a good thread and getting some excellent questions and answers.

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## mucko

> First thought I had was Eddystone action - Gundoc confirms that.  Some of those were tested by writers in the past and failed at surprisingly low levels - the more work the actions had done the lower the margin for safety and the earlier they poos'd it.  Would suggest glass-hard action with a fatigue issue that finally let go.  That's the danger with the p14 scrubbed BSA actions - probably safe enough for .303 but they got a reputation for magnum conversions and the BSA ones don't have their parentage still visible...


your in my neck of the woods if you want to look at the bits and give your opinion. im in te puna

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## mucko

> First thought I had was Eddystone action - Gundoc confirms that.  Some of those were tested by writers in the past and failed at surprisingly low levels - the more work the actions had done the lower the margin for safety and the earlier they poos'd it.  Would suggest glass-hard action with a fatigue issue that finally let go.  That's the danger with the p14 scrubbed BSA actions - probably safe enough for .303 but they got a reputation for magnum conversions and the BSA ones don't have their parentage still visible...


you have to look at other bits to get a idea of parentage all attachments are E. my dad just built a 338 edge on the same action for him and his mate, after witnessing my injury he is pulling the pin on them and will look for another action.

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## 17brno

Damm might have a bit of a flinch next time you pull the trigger ,glad there are no permanent injures

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## mucko

> Damm might have a bit of a flinch next time you pull the trigger ,glad there are no permanent injures


just about normal again whatever normal is for me lol. i got off very lucky

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## csmiffy

> First thought I had was Eddystone action - Gundoc confirms that.  Some of those were tested by writers in the past and failed at surprisingly low levels - the more work the actions had done the lower the margin for safety and the earlier they poos'd it.  Would suggest glass-hard action with a fatigue issue that finally let go.  That's the danger with the p14 scrubbed BSA actions - probably safe enough for .303 but they got a reputation for magnum conversions and the BSA ones don't have their parentage still visible...


 @Mauser308 not saying the action is a bit dodgy but in this case it seems to be the bolt that let go. If so that's a different animal altogether

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## Woody

Its a rebarreled action in this instance. Nevertheless, for better case life with belted cases it is usually better to headspace from shoulder rather than the belt.
Regardless, it  appears , as Mucko and Gundoc surmise , the issue lies rearward of the cartridge itself.

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## grandpamac

Greetings Mucko, 
Congratulations on your escape. Looking at your load of AR2213SC at 61 grains I wonder if you have been the victim of old data. Hodgdon has produced some modern data for the .264 recently in psi which shows 61 grains as near max for the 129 grains and way over max for the 140 grains. Nick Harvey was giving much higher loads at least up until his 6th edition which would be excessive to dangerous based on the current Hodgdon data.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## mucko

> Greetings Mucko, 
> Congratulations on your escape. Looking at your load of AR2213SC at 61 grains I wonder if you have been the victim of old data. Hodgdon has produced some modern data for the .264 recently in psi which shows 61 grains as near max for the 129 grains and way over max for the 140 grains. Nick Harvey was giving much higher loads at least up until his 6th edition which would be excessive to dangerous based on the current Hodgdon data.
> Regards Grandpamac.


ADI data online and 9th edition print. thats their most up to date data specs and i was still .8 under max. but in saying that i dont know when the data was last reviewed. there was zero indication of high pressure in the 3 shoots beforehand. zero function issues to indicate bolt stretch or deformity, even the remaining case in the chamber looked normal minus the base.  Thanks for you feed back its worth looking into that further.

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## Woody

@mucko. Out of curiosity; what projectile? -and was it seated deeper than previous tests? An unlikely cause in light of no previous pressure signs though.

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## mucko

> @mucko. Out of curiosity; what projectile? -and was it seated deeper than previous tests? An unlikely cause in light of no previous pressure signs though.


127gr barnes LRX

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## mucko

> Ah, quite right. My bad.


i will double check but think the chambering is a deep throat so the power doesnt burn out the lands so bad.

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## mucko

> @mucko. Out of curiosity; what projectile? -and was it seated deeper than previous tests? An unlikely cause in light of no previous pressure signs though.


thats the bit that haunts me mate, i cant find the evidence of the failure, only the discoloration of the steel where the bolt blew apart.

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## mucko

> Greetings Mucko, 
> Congratulations on your escape. Looking at your load of AR2213SC at 61 grains I wonder if you have been the victim of old data. Hodgdon has produced some modern data for the .264 recently in psi which shows 61 grains as near max for the 129 grains and way over max for the 140 grains. Nick Harvey was giving much higher loads at least up until his 6th edition which would be excessive to dangerous based on the current Hodgdon data.
> Regards Grandpamac.


i checked the hodgdon data online its identical to ADI

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## grandpamac

Greetings Again,
I checked the Barnes on line data for the 127 grain LRX BT. They don't list H4831SC or H1000 (AR2213SC and AR2217 respectively) for that matter. They do list RL22 and IMR7828SSC (both slower than AR2213SC) at 58.3 and 56.0 grains max. The Hodgdon/ADI data is for the 129 grain Hornady Interlock. This is noted as a projectile developing less pressure than average while the Barnes projectiles develop notably more. Barnes even lists Retumbo (AR2225) at 62.7 grains max with the 127 grain LRX and this is way slower than AR2213SC. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but I think that the blow up was due to an overload. Barnes projectiles need special data with loading especially with the .264 Winchester which is known to be a bit grumpy at times. At least you didn't use Nick Harvey's 6th edition load of 68 grains. More than the rifle could have been scrap with that.
Regards and commiserations Grandpamac

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## mucko

> Greetings Again,
> I checked the Barnes on line data for the 127 grain LRX BT. They don't list H4831SC or H1000 (AR2213SC and AR2217 respectively) for that matter. They do list RL22 and IMR7828SSC (both slower than AR2213SC) at 58.3 and 56.0 grains max. The Hodgdon/ADI data is for the 129 grain Hornady Interlock. This is noted as a projectile developing less pressure than average while the Barnes projectiles develop notably more. Barnes even lists Retumbo (AR2225) at 62.7 grains max with the 127 grain LRX and this is way slower than AR2213SC. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but I think that the blow up was due to an overload. Barnes projectiles need special data with loading especially with the .264 Winchester which is known to be a bit grumpy at times. At least you didn't use Nick Harvey's 6th edition load of 68 grains. More than the rifle could have been scrap with that.
> Regards and commiserations Grandpamac


it seams to be the case, by switching to the barnes projectile from nosler lr 129gr i did not check the barnes site which had new data, last time i was on there there was no load data which could of been years ago. its not very well known or articulated just how different barnes bullets are to lead core copper jacket. thankfully i can walk away from this wiser, and able to help others not make the same mistake. @gundoc i seams through poor research i overloaded the old girl.

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## zimmer

@mucko I know you have posted load info in your original post and then bits thru the thread but would you mind reposting for both your previous load and the nasty Barnes stuff.

Also what is your barrel length, each load's catridge's OAL. I'm assuming you have jump as well?

Just playing with QL.

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## grandpamac

Greetings Once More Mucko,
I had the difference between the homogeneous and lead core projectiles recently when one of our club members had a near miss with his .260 rem with the same pill. He was about 2 grains over and his Sako escaped with no permanent damage. You mentioned a lack of pressure signs. Most of the standard ones such as primer appearance, bolt lift and ejector hole marks have been shown to be unreliable although some will dispute that. The best measure of pressure available to us mere mortals is the chronograph. Higher velocity means higher pressure. I use mine more and more. We are lucky that good modern pressure tested data is now available for the .264 due to Remington chambering it in their Sendero 700. Best of luck in your search for a modern action for your barrel. At least the Enfield barrel tenon gives you plenty of scope.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## mucko

> @mucko I know you have posted load info in your original post and then bits thru the thread but would you mind reposting for both your previous load and the nasty Barnes stuff.
> 
> Also what is your barrel length, each load's catridge's OAL. I'm assuming you have jump as well?
> 
> Just playing with QL.


i had used barnes before hand, then changed to nosler lr 129gr i had that load from 58.5-62.5gr in .2gr increments trim length 2.490 coal 3.184. i found nodes in the 59.5 and 61.5gr range. i then changed back to the barnes LRX 
i (foolishly) did not check the barnes sight for new data. when i first built the rifle 6 years ago there from my recollection no load data (could be wrong) i have never successfully had the time to find a load to suit the rifle so it spend plenty of time hiding in the corner. if i did everything over and could advise anyone regardless of your powder recommendation check the requirement of the projectile maker.

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## mucko

> @mucko I know you have posted load info in your original post and then bits thru the thread but would you mind reposting for both your previous load and the nasty Barnes stuff.
> 
> Also what is your barrel length, each load's catridge's OAL. I'm assuming you have jump as well?
> 
> Just playing with QL.


the load that blew it up was Barnes LRX 61.2Grs ADI 2213SC would have to measure a load but over all length was restricted mag box. there was heaps of jump about 200 thou.
can you check QL for loads using the same projectile in 6.6/06 using 2209

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## mucko

> @mucko I know you have posted load info in your original post and then bits thru the thread but would you mind reposting for both your previous load and the nasty Barnes stuff.
> 
> Also what is your barrel length, each load's catridge's OAL. I'm assuming you have jump as well?
> 
> Just playing with QL.


26 inch barrel

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## zimmer

> 26 inch barrel


Will have a fiddle tomorrow arvo.

Anyone else out there able to run thru QL so we can compare results?

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## zimmer

@mucko 
2 QL images. The first using AR2213 which myself and some of my shooting mates know, well in QL at least, is not the same as AR2213SC.
Second image is Hodgdon H4831 which is AR2213SC. 

Pretty basic analysis with more accurate results if measuring COAL and water capacity of a fired case.
QL can be brilliant or off the mark for some powders. Quite often you need to reverse engine QL to get relevant results ie fire a load,  then adjust QL to match real world velocity.

So, what I have posted may not be gospel and other QL users may pick up something I have done wrong.

The pMax in QL is the max pressure rating of the cartridge case, not the action being fired. QL obviously has no idea of the strength of the action being used.

Did you have any velocities for your first shots fired?

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## Tankd

The Rifle seems to be operating in the range of pressures it can hold ? . That being the 276 enfield and 30-06 , and there where a lot of 30-06 fired out of P17's .
           So what the question is what happened to the case ? . Because it all seems to point to what Gundoc has said with maybe some sort of case failure / maybe oversized / oil on case / something which contributed as a catalyst . With age cracking just behind the bolt ?????.
      So is there any pictures of the case ? .

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## Cordite

> The Rifle seems to be operating in the range of pressures it can hold ? . That being the 276 enfield and 30-06 , and there where a lot of 30-06 fired out of P17's .
>            So what the question is what happened to the case ? . Because it all seems to point to what Gundoc has said with maybe some sort of case failure / maybe oversized / oil on case / something which contributed as a catalyst . With age cracking just behind the bolt ?????.
>       So is there any pictures of the case ? .


And what about pics of the first (penultimate!) case fired?  Any clues from that?

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## mucko

> And what about pics of the first (penultimate!) case fired?  Any clues from that?


will try to get pics tomorrow, all my gear still at dads place. we actually looked at the cases and thought they were fine. will tag you when i put pics up.

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## mucko

> The Rifle seems to be operating in the range of pressures it can hold ? . That being the 276 enfield and 30-06 , and there where a lot of 30-06 fired out of P17's .
>            So what the question is what happened to the case ? . Because it all seems to point to what Gundoc has said with maybe some sort of case failure / maybe oversized / oil on case / something which contributed as a catalyst . With age cracking just behind the bolt ?????.
>       So is there any pictures of the case ? .


i use imperial sizeing wax on cases then ultrasonic clean and air dry before i load them, clean primer pockets etc, loaded rounds are stored in mtm case. the case that was in the barrel apart from no arse end had no splits and no signs of gas blowing past the neck. will try get fresh pics up tomorrow.

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## tetawa

For my 5 pence worth find that ADI have reduced their min-max loads by quite a bit over the last 30 plus years, I use their max load as starting load if I'm using different cases or projectiles from the norm, never struck a problem and most my loads are 3-4 grains above what they now class max in their reloading data, this is with medium - larger case capacities. Don't know what has happened here, go buy a lotto, you had luck on your side.

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## mucko

> For my 5 pence worth find that ADI have reduced their min-max loads by quite a bit over the last 30 plus years, I use their max load as starting load if I'm using different cases or projectiles from the norm, never struck a problem and most my loads are 3-4 grains above what they now class max in their reloading data, this is with medium - larger case capacities. Don't know what has happened here, go buy a lotto, you had luck on your side.


yeah bloody lucky, hows TK these days. bloody interesting QL data. im eyeing up a sauer 100 in 300WM. need to move some other toys to achieve it thou. will sell the 3006AI with timmney trigger and dies as wont need it with 300WM may even sell the 6.5/06 but thats a maybe.

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## gundoc

I use AR2213SC in a 26" barrel with the my .30/06 and the powder difference between hot but no pressure signs on the case to primers falling out is bugger all.  I am running 167 grain Lapua Scenars at 2950 fps, good extraction and no pressure signs.  3030 fps gives popped primers and stiff extraction.  The powder difference is 0.5 grains.  The action is a Winchester M17 with a Vulcan match barrel, and accuracy is about 0.5 MOA.  Clearly AR2213SC pressure spikes badly when the maximum load is exceeded by even a small amount.  When the load is right, and the barrel is long enough to burn it, the pressure is good, the bore stays clean, and the mean deviation is low.  I am happy with my load and will stick with it but as I am changing projectiles to 168 Sierra HPBT I will back off a grain and work back up, 0.1 grain increments and over my chrono until I hopefully get to 2950 fps again.

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## grandpamac

Greetings All,
First Zimmer I found the Quickload data interesting, if a little startling and appreciate the notes on reliability. I also would like to state that I am not having a go at anyone, just trying to put a little more info out for those that feel a little bewildered like myself. I note that the Quickload predictions are close to the data that Hodgdon provides for the 129 grain Interlock and wonder how or if they have allowed for the relative hardness of the Barnes projectile. Hodgdon also provides data for the Nosler 130 grain Accubond but cuts the load over 2 grains to 59.2 grains of AR2213SC. Nosler goes even further to 57.5 grains of the same powder. Barnes does not even list AR2213SC with the 127 grain LRX BT perhaps feeling that the powder is just too fast for the cartridge. Barnes did get over 3,100 feet per second with AR2225 (Retumbo).
All of the above is intended to show that the .264 Win Mag although capable of decent performance is cranky to load. Even Winchester struggled with high pressures in the 1950's when the cartridge was in development. Their answer was a two diameter projectile which solved the pressure problem but created an accuracy one. Due to Remington currently chambering the .264 in their Sendero we are lucky to have at least three sources of piezo pressure tested data available even though they don't agree on much.
Quickload like most predictive models used for all sorts of things is based on model created to match observed data. The loads do not come directly from actual test data. Something to remember.
Based on a number of articles in Handloader traditional methods for estimating pressure like bolt lift, primer appearance, ejector marks etc are unreliable often resulting in pressures around 70,000 PSI. A number of domesticated wild cats from the 80"s failed in the market due to velocities needing to be reduced to meet pressure limits. Remember the 7 mm STW? Hopefully I have not added to an already perplexing subject.
Grandpamac.

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