# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  TV3 & Guncity mistake

## BobGibson

Looks like Guncity may have a problem after they supplied a .22 rifle to a TV3 staff member who did not have a FAL 
Watch TV3 7pm tonight.

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## Tommy

That would make the owners bunghole pucker a bit

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## BobGibson

I think what TV3 did was supply a fake FAL number on the online purchase form.
So I guess TV3 may have also committed fraud.

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## bully

Yes I thought this was what they were on about. On tv3 story show tonight.

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## mikee

> I think what TV3 did was supply a fake FAL number on the online purchase form.
> So I guess TV3 may have also committed fraud.


Listening to Duncan Garner on way home tonight he said they only supplied a Fake Name and Firearms Licence Number. 

If that was all then the Gunshop might also have some answering to do?

However   I was under the impression they should / would  have to have also supplied a completed mail order for which should have officers name, Station QID and signature stating they have sighted their (purchaser licence)

http://www.guncity.com/?syscmd=dl&ID...958F1B32FCC026 as an example

Soooooooooo while its bad enough they got the gun if they filled in the form and forged the Police details I hope they (TV3) get book thrown at them too
I do know with arms act, Its up to FAL holder to prove their innocence rather than police their guilt.

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## Daggers_187

> I think what TV3 did was supply a fake FAL number on the online purchase form.
> So I guess TV3 may have also committed fraud.


Yes but the legislation says it's an offence to supply a firearm or ammunition without the police mail order form being sighted.

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## BobGibson

If TV3 faked the Police use only part of the form I would expect them (TV3) to be in trouble not Guncity.
Dont know if we have got all the facts on this yet

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## Beetroot

> Listening to Duncan Garner on way home tonight he said they only supplied a Fake Name and Firearms Licence Number. 
> 
> If that was all then the Gunshop might also have some answering to do?
> 
> However   I was under the impression they should / would  have to have also supplied a completed mail order for which should have officers name, Station QID and signature stating they have sighted their (purchaser licence)
> 
> http://www.guncity.com/?syscmd=dl&ID...958F1B32FCC026 as an example
> 
> Soooooooooo while its bad enough they got the gun if they filled in the form and forged the Police details I hope they (TV3) get book thrown at them too
> I do know with arms act, Its up to FAL holder to prove their innocence rather than police their guilt.


My exact thoughts, I hope Gun city gets in trouble if they are at fault. 
But also hope Duncan Garner gets at least a fine or a serious talking to for being a wibbling media twat. I used to like him, but he is just the same as any other Journalist who would do anything to get a story.

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## Tommy

Looks like they faked the lot

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## Tommy

Except a legitimate FAL number, all other details being boogie

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## BobGibson

Hey Tommy is that the online form TV3 submitted to Guncity

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## Hades

Interesting.  Will be watching this.  Because TV3 won't tell us of this loop-hole as they put it, we will never know.

AFAIK, Gun City either sent without sighting the forms/accepting the forms incomplete or TV3 falsified information on the form- both FAL number and Police details.
The reason for the mail-order form is to verify, via the police, that the buyer is licensed.  

If TV3 falsified the documents including the police signature, Gun City is not to know any different and the system obviously needs to be revised.  Tv3 should also face a penalty.  If Gun City accepted an incomplete form, then they should skate for it.

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## tararua

They usually have a stamp too near the police use only section at the bottom? 

There has been lots of slander towards firearm owners in the media lately, looks like a useless reporter wants an easy promotion. Hope he gets promoted to prison for forging shit.

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## Tommy

> Hey Tommy is that the online form TV3 submitted to Guncity


Yep, it's on Whaleoil #dirtymedia Mediaworks programme Story breaks multiple laws to illegally obtain an firearm

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## BobGibson

So TV3 impersonated a police officer to trick a person into committing a crime.
Not a good look for them at all

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## Hades

That's a good read @Tommy.  So if the stamp is needed and was not there, Gun City takes a hit.  Either way, an example should be made of TV3.  There is no loop-hole, only crime.

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## 199p

I would say the loop hole is that you don't have to cheek the form at the police to ensure its legit. 
I have 4 times now and been told every time i don't have to get it cheeked as the police sighted his licence and signed
my reply being how do i know they didn't sign the police part.

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## outdoorlad

The police officer signing it normally stamps it as well, fault on both sides

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## kotuku

this stunt was done once before by MSM with a underage purchase of an air rifle by a well known actor (one Tim balme)with teenage stooge (the purchaser) ,the shit hit the fan when a scungy wee female photographer from the same rag was spotted lurking in bushes near the scene of the crime.
 if these fucktards resort to such extreme lengths to get ratings  then they deserve all they get.
HDPA should be made kim kardashians bitch and GO'C should be Craig Jouberts ball boy ! 
DG should be chained to a milking shed fence and sprayed with cowshit as hes another shithead!
 personally a very upfront conversation will be taking place between myself and a very high up person in TV3 in the very near future the precise axis being does he she sanction such shit and if so why .
in fact id suspect my brother may well also indulge in such a conversation!

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## rambo-6mmrem

next thing it ill be like oz where all gun transfers have to be done via a dealer

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## Beavis

If they forged the mail order form to illegally take possession of a firearm I want to see them charged.

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## kotuku

if this is how low they MSM will stoop with gullible advice from nzs police No1 union man then it says a bloody lot about honesty . can we in reply have 12 licensed FAL to compose the jury????

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## Koshogi

> next thing it ill be like oz where all gun transfers have to be done via a dealer


This was done through a dealer.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## Danny

Broken a lot of laws here. I will watch with interest and an agenda. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Beavis

Journalist Heather du Plessis-Allan uses fake details to obtain gun licence

Ha-fucking-ha

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## outdoorlad

Might put a damper on some of Heathers overseas travel if she gets convicted over it!!

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## Dan88

well there goes the ability to purchase guns and ammo online! how stupid do you have to be TV3. throw the book at them. bloody fear mongering

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## Tommy

> Might put a damper on some of Heathers overseas travel if she gets convicted over it!!



Here's hoping. Stupid cow. 

I'm less concerned about her compared to Greg O'fuckingConnor. How in the hell he thought that was a smart plan I don't know. Fecking eeejit!

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## Tentman

I think we all should be having a talk to our MP's (I certainly will be) as prosecution should be pursued to the fullest extent.  IMHO O'Connor is in this up to his neck and about time the gutless bugger was called.  Rank and file Plods have enough to deal with without having to put up with crap arising from his future political aspirations (which I'd say is behind this).

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## huntingkiwi

If criminals weren't thinking of it they will be now.    

Perhaps we should submit broadcasting standards complaints?

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## huntingkiwi

If criminals weren't thinking of it they will be now.    

Perhaps we should submit broadcasting standards complaints?


Don't know how that double post happened!   :Sad:

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## BobGibson

It will be interesting to see what happens on TV3 @ 7pm tonight. Given that the police are currently investigating them (TV3) they may pull the story.
I guess its all about the ratings though 
.

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## grunzter

...Oh I hope she gets prosecuted !
No bullshit such as "done in the interest of public safety..." super idiot!

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## Tommy

Also. Courier post have a no guns policy.

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## 199p

Really not hard nor a bad idea for people to have to verify the form is legit  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Simon

Cant believe that gun city didn't check the fire arms number.
Crazy.

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## Survy

Hmmmm, interesting comments, no doubt it's going to open some eyes up to a potential loop hole. 
I would really like to see an online registration check on licence numbers that shops and or the public can use, kind of how the police have the rego check on their website, that way it can done at the time and either tell you valid or not.

This could curb those who have had their licence revoked and failed to surrender their actual licence meaning they could potentially still purchase.

However this rolls out, I'm just happy they chose GC to fuck it up.

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## Steve123

I hope she gets prosecuted. If they forged the police use only part of the form they should have the book thrown at them.
NZ media tries to shape opinion rather than report facts most of the time.

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## dirtyhabit

> I would really like to see an online registration check on licence numbers that shops and or the public can use, kind of how the police have the rego check on their website, that way it can done at the time and either tell you valid or not.


Publically available info like address, phone number etc...?
As in a criminal shopping list? Pretty shit idea to be fair mate

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## Simon

They just said the system will change to where the current on line form will be sent to the gun store / firearm holder by the police after the firearms licence is sighted and confirmed by them.
Make sense since you need to visit them any ways.

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## Hades

AFAIK, they do not have access to a database to check against, nor do they, or anyone else have to check.

After hearing the report on TV, Gun City, and everyone else that has ever used a Firearms Mail order form is in the clear and innocent.

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## Survy

> Publically available info like address, phone number etc...?
> As in a criminal shopping list? Pretty shit idea to be fair mate


the idea is great dirty, your interpretation of it is shit. Thanks for the comment,
The police rego check in their website gives absolutely no information of the address or phone numbers or etc, it either tells you that rego is either stolen or not, an adaptation of this with the FLIC number could potentially tell you VAILD or INVAILD, in essence it can also be run by the police porting the information of the licence status the same way they do regos.

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## Jexla

Why'd they not check the FAL number? Because they can't. 
The form should have been stamped? Nope, out of all the ones I have gotten, my AO nor any police officer has stamped the form.
Stamping is NOT required.
Stop pulling shit out from no where guys, just as bad as the MSM you complain about.

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## Uplandstalker

> Why'd they not check the FAL number? Because they can't. 
> The form should have been stamped? Nope, out of all the ones I have gotten, my AO nor any police officer has stamped the form.
> Stamping is NOT required.
> Stop pulling shit out from no where guys, just as bad as the MSM you complain about.


Normally gets a stamp from my local too. 

I agree that its all a little to easy, but the alternative is what most of the old hands are very much against - firearms registration (here comes the real shit fight)

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## Jexla

"Normally" does not = legal requirement. Gun City were not wrong to not question the stamp being there.
Whether your AO or police officer stamps your form or not doesn't matter, Gun City is not required to ensure it is there.

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## Beetroot

Lets hope that all that happens is that the Police now send it/ a scanned copy to the seller.
Oh and TV3 gets their arse holes majorly reamed!

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## stug

All those things mentioned will need a change in the arms act, that isn't goin to happen overnight. The only thing that needs to change is how the seller can ensure that it was an actual police officer that signed the form.

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## Steve123

With all the reporting about crims having easy access to fire-arms and the current crop of fucktards not identifying their targets I'm detecting a fair amount of anti-gun hysteria getting worked up by the media. Simple fact is some dirt bag forged/impersonated an arms officer. and should be prosecuted.
I buy firearms in person mainly because I don't trust courier drivers not to screw things up but also because its way less hassle than getting the form signed etc. You can also see the sellers not dodgy as well.

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## Jexla

> Lets hope that all that happens is that the Police now send it/ a scanned copy to the seller.
> Oh and TV3 gets their arse holes majorly reamed!


If that happens you can expect it to take 2/3 months :/

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## tetawa

And wouldn't the retail outlets love it if you couldn't sell on Tard Me or on line like here.

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## ANTSMAN

isnt it far worse for someone to knowingly commit an offence,reporters/ratings or not, rather than a "possible" mistake on the shops part.....

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## Beavis

So is the form not legit if it doesn't have a police stamp? How easy would it be for a dedicated individual to forge a stamp or at least smudge something to resemble a police stamp? It appears to me that they have impersonated a police officer to fill the form in. Is this not a serious crime in itself? The police need to throw the book at these morons. Their careers need to be over. Police need to show the country that they don't stand for this kind of fuckery.

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## Jexla

> isnt it far worse for someone to knowingly commit an offence,reporters/ratings or not, rather than a "possible" mistake on the shops part.....


The police release said possessing a firearm without a legal licence was a criminal offence and if successfully prosecuted could lead to three months in prison or a $1000 fine. The charge for "obtaining by deception" carried penalties up to seven years in prison, the police statement said.

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## ANTSMAN

yeh it isnt the process itself thats at fault(other than the retarted ratings seeking reporters), what is at fault is someones inadherance to process. if they charge the gunshop, the other end should be similarly charged .

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## Jexla

> So is the form not legit if it doesn't have a police stamp?


Like I said, the stamp in not required.

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## Jexla

> yeh it isnt the process itself thats at fault(other than the retarted ratings seeking reporters), what is at fault is someones inadherance to process. if they charge the gunshop, the other end should be similarly charged .


Gun City have not broken the law, they're required to have the form filled out and sent to them completed, the form was sent to them completed and nothing shines out that it could be fake. No law broken on their end.

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## Tentman

@ Stug - So if we can't rely on the fact that if it says it was signed by a police officer it was, then about half of the "legal transactions" in the country will break down - just about every system has an element of trust involved, this is no different from any other bit of paper where you have your "status" confirmed by a lawyer or JP or the like.

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## Beavis

No real harm done at gun city's end (for once). But my statement stands - they impersonated a police officer. If I did that and got caught, I'd expect to end up in front of a judge.

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## 300CALMAN

> the idea is great dirty, your interpretation of it is shit. Thanks for the comment,
> The police rego check in their website gives absolutely no information of the address or phone numbers or etc, it either tells you that rego is either stolen or not, an adaptation of this with the FLIC number could potentially tell you VAILD or INVAILD, in essence it can also be run by the police porting the information of the licence status the same way they do regos.


unfortunately that was done by GC and by luck the number met the criteria. People could use this to find legit numbers.

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## timattalon

> Also. Courier post have a no guns policy.


Only for Joe Blow on the street. They happily ship from dealers. I had them tell me they would no carry one while talking to them on the phone while their van driver was unloading 24 rifles for us from a wholesaler........(to a gun shop no less)

And they deliver this to me too.... Guess what was in it.....



Well packed, what with it being wrapped in a towel and brown tape.......

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## 300CALMAN

> Normally gets a stamp from my local too. 
> 
> I agree that its all a little to easy, but the alternative is what most of the old hands are very much against - firearms registration (here comes the real shit fight)


Because it dose almost nothing. The biggest source of illegal firearms by far are stolen ones. To stop this you must ban the public (and police) from owning firearms.

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## Simon

Trade me asks for a fire arms licence number and its near on impossible to bid or even ask a question about a gun without having a valid licence number.
How do they do it but the gun shops don't or cant?

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## Jexla

Trademe's asking of a FAL number doesn't require the number to be valid, but only to meet the formula of a FAL number.
I know, they weren't happy when I kept using made up ones because I didn't have my wallet on me to get my FAL number.

P.S this is what HDPA done with the FAL she had on the form, she didn't "borrow" anyone's FAL number, she just learnt the format of a FAL number and made one up.

E.g is T519845 a real FAL number?

Looks it, could even be, but I just made it up. So clever huh? Not.

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## stug

Sounds like she was very lucky that the number she made up was an actual number. The Herald article states that Guncity checked the firearms licence number and it was real. 
I wouldn't be at all surprised if they used the licence number of the firearms licence holder they had on the TV program.

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## Sylvester

The courts should make an example of Heather and co, lets start seeing stories about our current firearm laws being applied.

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## mikee

> Sounds like she was very lucky that the number she made up was an actual number. The Herald article states that Guncity checked the firearms licence number and it was real. 
> I wouldn't be at all surprised if they used the licence number of the firearms licence holder they had on the TV program.


Well if they did use his FAL number and he gave it to them them he should be considered no longer "fit and proper" expecially since FALs now seem to be revoked for driving offences etc, etc. 

I'm tired of being thrown under the bus just because my hobbies are an easy target. For god sake more kids are beaten and hospitalised every week than people shot by criminals. ( yes both are bad bad things)

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## Ground Control

I haven't really kept up with this , but it seems to me the first breach of the law was falsifying the police clearance .
All other actions by other parties where thus the result of a misleading and unlawful action .


Ken

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## Gerbs

> Trademe's asking of a FAL number doesn't require the number to be valid, but only to meet the formula of a FAL number.
> I know, they weren't happy when I kept using made up ones because I didn't have my wallet on me to get my FAL number.
> 
> P.S this is what HDPA done with the FAL she had on the form, she didn't "borrow" anyone's FAL number, she just learnt the format of a FAL number and made one up.
> 
> E.g is T519845 a real FAL number?
> 
> Looks it, could even be, but I just made it up. So clever huh? Not.


Actually nah, not quite.
I don't know how they check, but they DO check you have a legit FAL. They refused to provide me the details on how they check.
I used to enter a false number that looked right (due to sharing of information etc) and they nailed me - wouldn't let me bid/question/sell anything firearm related until I provided them with a scanned copy of my license.

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## tararua

I am very impressed with the police response. Heather needs a big book thrown at her.

I think that O'Conner guy was in on this from the start, clearly this all being timed for his interview with that stooge Duncan Garner so he can give his opinion on how we need more legislative restrictions on firearm ownership.

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## tararua

> Actually nah, not quite.
> I don't know how they check, but they DO check you have a legit FAL. They refused to provide me the details on how they check.


You should know by now they have a big database of everyones info on everyone in NZ (and most developed nations).

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## tararua

I am curious to know why Heather Du Plessiallen still has this rifle and has not had her house searched by our boys in blue yet.

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## 300CALMAN

I am guessing it is a formula, essentially a simple encryption. If you have enough FALs you could work it out. Credit Cards have it also but a lot more numbers. If Gun City did check it and it passed then it is either a legit number or lucky. The cipher could be as simple as for instance if your letter is "H" the first three numbers are a multiple of 8. It's possible they simply obtained a legit number from someone.

Still fraud, most smart investigators and auditors use a legal means to test a system. IE begin a transaction but don't finish it, underage alcohol and cigarette purchasers are a good example. they set up the deal but don't finish it. Out of principle you don't actually commit a crime to prove one is easy to commit. GC has also not done a good job on this but nothing like Duncan Greg and Heather.

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## stug

> I am curious to know why Heather Du Plessiallen still has this rifle and has not had her house searched by our boys in blue yet.


They filmed them handing it over to the local police firearms guy this afternoon.

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## Tommy

> Actually nah, not quite.
> I don't know how they check, but they DO check you have a legit FAL. They refused to provide me the details on how they check.
> I used to enter a false number that looked right (due to sharing of information etc) and they nailed me - wouldn't let me bid/question/sell anything firearm related until I provided them with a scanned copy of my license.


I use a bullshit one on TM every time, I use my real one with the seller as its none of TMs business what my FAL number is. I just use the SAME bullshit number each time, no problems

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## gsp follower

> They usually have a stamp too near the police use only section at the bottom?


ok i,ve never struck the stamp i dont think  but not saying it dont exist.
story and that newsworthy are shit any way no loss.
 as for occonnor remember his 58 guns siezed in 7 weeks .
well considering most are probably replicas non functioning toys and air rifles technicly not firearms id take his figures with a grain of salt.bring back jc he never stooped to this shit :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## Beavis

Petition running now to have her charged. Getting shredded on the TV3 FB page.

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## oneshot

I hope that Auckland Police and Gun City fry that bitch...Put her in Jail!!!

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## 300CALMAN

> Petition running now to have her charged. Getting shredded on the TV3 FB page.


signed (with my REAL name :Grin: )

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## oneshot

Where is the petition ?

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## 300CALMAN

https://www.change.org/p/new-zealand...etition-no_msg

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## Maca49

Done! I guess I'm back to that queer little bugger Hoskins :ORLY:

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## Woody

Somebody ripped into TV3 and HDPS this arfo on the air big time,   until Garner cut him off--

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## Koshogi

It quite coincidental that the NZ Police Association President, Greg O'Connor opened a Police Conference today. Surprise, surprise, the theme is:
"In the Firing Line, highlighting recent firearms incidents and the police response. Well be looking at the availability of firearms to criminals and what's wrong with the Arms Act".

There is allegations that Greg O'Connor was involved in this. I hope he is fully investigated for Conspiring to Commit an Offence.

Crimes Act 1961
310 Conspiring to commit offence
(1)
Subject to the provisions of subsection (2), every one who conspires with any person to commit any offence, or to do or omit, in any part of the world, anything of which the doing or omission in New Zealand would be an offence, is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years if the maximum punishment for that offence exceeds 7 years imprisonment, and in any other case is liable to the same punishment as if he or she had committed that offence.
(2)
This section shall not apply where a punishment for the conspiracy is otherwise expressly prescribed by this Act or by some other enactment.
(3)
Where under this section any one is charged with conspiring to do or omit anything anywhere outside New Zealand, it is a defence to prove that the doing or omission of the act to which the conspiracy relates was not an offence under the law of the place where it was, or was to be, done or omitted

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## Keltic_Kiwi

> All those things mentioned will need a change in the arms act, that isn't goin to happen overnight. The only thing that needs to change is how the seller can ensure that it was an actual police officer that signed the form.


the police have said they are now taking responsibility for sending the mail order form to the seller direct

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## veitnamcam

> https://www.change.org/p/new-zealand...etition-no_msg


Done!

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## stretch

> Publically available info like address, phone number etc...?
> As in a criminal shopping list? Pretty shit idea to be fair mate


Would it worry anyone if I told you I could get a list of names and home addresses of thousands (but not all) FAL-holders off the interwebs right now?

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## Alonzo

@stretch Is there an open API somewhere?

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## BobGibson

Signed also.
I'm away bush hunting for a week
Will check on progress when I get back.

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## stretch

> @stretch Is there an open API somewhere?


Not that I'm aware of, but I've found a security loophole in a certain website many FAL-holders use..

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## Alonzo

@stretch Got it, I can probably guess

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## dirtyhabit

We can only be grateful that you have channelled your powers for good, not evil Stretch, thank Allah you are on our side :Have A Nice Day:

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## striker

> Would it worry anyone if I told you I could get a list of names and home addresses of thousands (but not all) FAL-holders off the interwebs right now?


I could have got at least 150 names, addys and FL numbers yesterday buying an item at HnF, book was open on the counter for all to see,  2 seconds and a single camera phone pic= possible info in the wrong hands

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## rockland

Disappointing to see such irresponsible journalism!
Thanks for link to Petition 300CALMAN...signed.

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## northdude

> Might put a damper on some of Heathers overseas travel if she gets convicted over it!!


she mightent get anything as our system works a conviction may harm her career but if it was you or I it would be a different story I bet

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## Greig1605

Just my two cents, most of it has already been covered by previous posts but I want to get it off my chest....

TV3 have fraudulently filled out a form, not only that, they also mislead viewers in their story as to what they had actually falsified.   I listened carefully to what they said about taking the form to the local police station, they said that they didn't, but they were very clever in NOT saying that they had fraudulently signed the form as a police officer...  Nor did they include that part of the form in the images they showed.   For me, that's just TV3 reporting done the only way they know how, the manipulation of truth they use to get all of the "TV3 masses" on their side and baying for blood is just amazing.   I wonder how many of those masses however would have turned the other way had they known that Heather had actually signed the form as the police officer....   Bearing in mind of course it's not the first or last time they will use this method to get a story, sell advertising and make themselves look like the saviors of NZ.

Maybe they should have the book thrown at them, maybe they shouldn't.   I feel like part of what they did has helped to highlight a bit of a "soft" area in regard to obtaining firearms from retailers over the interweb, it did all seem rather easy, whether it was done legally or not.  I'm in favour of the Police sending the forms to the seller on my behalf, seems to be a logical thing to do given that I have to go there anyway, and the police are just as capable of using a fax/email as I am.

At the end of the day, mediaworks and TV3 have just sold another $1million worth of advertising, the world will keep turning, and if they don't report on it any further it will probably just blow over like every other "investigative journalism story" TV3 has ever done...   The reason why I flatly refuse to watch any news bulletin anymore...  They're all full of shit.

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## Tentman

Interesting post Greg, I was wondering last night if "advertisers" are the key to this, if we raised hell with them then it might close a feedback loop, I know that this has worked in the US (but sometimes one has to be careful what one wishes for, and there's lots goes on in the US media we don't want here!!)

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## EVILWAYZ

signed and shared on facebook

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## 308

Signed

As Koshogi said - this looks like a standard PR stunt by Greg "The Police need to be armed!" O'Connor

A ham-fisted attempt to manipulate Mr and Mrs Citizen into worrying about firearms by using emotive terms like "firepower" and "weapons". I have no love for Gun Shitty but I certainly hope that this journo gets prosecuted.


After the "In the firing line" conference they have wheeled out Alexander Gillespie saying the usual stuff

Ninety Six percent of guns in NZ are not registered | Nine To Noon, 9:08 am on 22 October 2015 | Radio New Zealand

like that we need a buy-back and we need an amnesty and we need to register all firearms

Yeah let's punish the law-abiding FAL owners because they have been law-abiding, that makes a metric fucktonne of sense..



How about we require better security of A-cat firearms than simply a cupboard and put some funding into better training of new FAL applicants now that the Mountain Safety Council training brainfart has caused their system to implode - now that I would support but re-registering and an amnesty and buyback?
Yeah nah fuckoff with your stupidity, Greg.

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## Dangerous Dan

The show is passed off as investigative journalism, more like creative journalism. Until last night, I never watched Heathers show "Story" and indeed it is in this case aptly named as such. I suspect ratings a plummeting and she needed the attention ( viewers ) to justify the axing John campbell.

Moral of the story, according to TV3/ Heather/ Mediaworks fraud is just a loophole ... Today I've quit my job and signed up for all the benefits I can find, If anyone wants to visit I'll be on a beach in Thailand.

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## Danny

They wouldn't have done this shit in Singapore... Be hanging by now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## sparky1000

Not sure if this has been posted up here...

http://www.police.govt.nz/news/relea...earms-purchase

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## misha2001

Heather Du Plessis-Allan committed a 'pretty serious offence' - Police Minister - Entertainment - NZ Herald News


I say prosecute her to the full extent of the law. There is no bloody loophole, as she claims. Just because she managed to fluke the Firearms licence (FAL) number does not mean there is a problem with the system. The only issue is that the shop owners cannot verify that the name matches the FAL. They took all steps as far as they could using the systems available to verify that the FAL was valid.

Perhaps there are some miscreants who might use similar tactics to obtain firearms. BUT, those of us who have paid the money, gone thru the due process of character references and Police checks would not consider such a course of action to obtain a firearm. The point she is missing is that just about all violent firearm offences are committed by non FAL holders.

And, of course, now those twats at TV3 have shown everyone how to illegally obtain firearms (those that are not already sourcing them from the black market). Go TV3!!!

I fully support any legal action that will be taken against this reporter (and her employers for condoning such blatantly illegal activity).  TV3 must be starving for some real news.

----------


## Tommy

Much like that fucking idiot who published one of the cruder recipes for methamphetamine in the Akl Uni student magazine. Coincedantally it turns out he was completely fried surprise surprise

----------


## steven

[QUOTE  8><---

 The only issue is that the shop owners cannot verify that the name matches the FAL. They took all steps as far as they could using the systems available to verify that the FAL was valid.

[/QUOTE]

It can be and is done by some on line.  When I delt with Aoraki from the feedback I got I am pretty sure they had run my form past their local AO to get it/me verified as legit before they shipped me a boat load of 223, good on them.

On top of that it wouldnt be hard for a gunshop to buildup and hold a register (or get the police to supply it or have a restricted website) of known AOs / signers as a simple and quick cross check. Something as simple as Wellington AO = Mike Cole = AO666.   Ditto putting in the FAL licence and getting back the owner's name on a website (but no address).

It isnt rocket science, its dead easy IT stuff that wouldnt cost much to implement like a few thousands of $s.

----------


## Josh

I have a solution to this that I imagine is pretty unpopular - I don't see the issue as being a sales issue, but a shipping one. Shipping firearms to private addresses, specifically.

Easy solution, scrap the police order form entirely, instead of heading to the police station to fill out the form, you head to the police station to show them your license and pick up your firearm, which was shipped there by the seller... would take up a slight amount of police time but would be pretty foolproof.

----------


## 308

> I have a solution to this that I imagine is pretty unpopular - I don't see the issue as being a sales issue, but a shipping one. Shipping firearms to private addresses, specifically.
> 
> Easy solution, scrap the police order form entirely, instead of heading to the police station to fill out the form, you head to the police station to show them your license and pick up your firearm, which was shipped there by the seller... would take up a slight amount of police time but would be pretty foolproof.


I think that is a good idea though the cops would need some more funding for their FAL processing staff as they are behind the 8-ball at the moment

----------


## Tommy

Heather du Plessis-Allan under police investigation

"My understanding is one member of their team does have a firearms licence, and is licensed for Category E (semi-autos) and Category B (pistols)"

*ahem* anyone on the forum?

----------


## Maca49

Oh so they are now going to be fit and proper to continue with these licences?

----------


## Dangerous Dan

I'm very conscious of a "witch hunt" occurring - but shouldn't the person whom we only see their hands (oldish man) have their FAL at least suspended as a criminal investigation is now taking place? What part have they played in the supply of a firearm to an unlicensed person?

----------


## misha2001

Quote from Police blurb to media - Police is also updating the online/mail order firearms purchasing process, so that those buying guns in this way from now on will be required to physically visit a Police station and present their license to a Police arms officer before any purchase is approved. (Cool, we have to do this now) If approved, the documentation will then be passed onto the dealer directly by Police. (This could be trickier - due to cost cutting at a dept level within the Police)

But, a good workaround for the time being. I am surprised that there is not already access for dealers to the FAL database that Police hold. As someone posted earlier - that way the dealer could see (a) that the FAL is valid, and (b) the FAL holder is still cleared to hold and exercise the rights bestowed upon a FAL holder. With this being 2015, there has to be a secure electronic way to tidy this up - its not rocket science. It would certainly beat the old paper based book method that dealers use now.

As a side note - if Police want to get a grip of who has what weapons, the log book that dealers use now to record the FAL holders details, as well as the weapon they have purchased, could be digitised (easy..) as above if the dealers had access to aforementioned FAL database...

----------


## veitnamcam

That log book is completly useless as there is no requirement for us to record who we sell to just sight a license.

----------


## stug

This is all a huge witch hunt and seems to be jacked up by the Police. How come this has just been done at the same time that Greg O'Connor is wanting firearms access tightened up and the Police have just been looking into it. "Someone" will have told the reporters what to do and how to do it.
How is the Police workaround any different to what is suppose to be happening? every time I have bought a firearm this way I have had to take the form in to the Police and presented my firearms licence. The only difference is the Police sending the form on. Where in the Arms Act does it say the Police have to send the form on?

----------


## bully

What about doing what the u.s does if there has to be change.... Don't they basicly just send things to the arms officer closest to you then you go in show them who you are, pick up your stuff and leave.
Wouldn't have to worry about firearm related stuff being dropped at your door when not home, and you have to go in to get your form signed anyway.

----------


## Jexla

> Actually nah, not quite.
> I don't know how they check, but they DO check you have a legit FAL. They refused to provide me the details on how they check.
> I used to enter a false number that looked right (due to sharing of information etc) and they nailed me - wouldn't let me bid/question/sell anything firearm related until I provided them with a scanned copy of my license.


You're missing the point, every time you follow the right formula, you can bid or ask a question. Yeah they might email after awhile and ask why you keep using different numbers, but you could have bought firearms well before the send an email.

----------


## zimmer

Wow, I just got a personalised letter (as I am sure others will as well) from TradeMe. Usually I like getting letters.....

Hi,

We're getting in touch with members who have been active in a firearms category on Trade Me in the past few months. The online sale of firearms has become a hot topic this week, so we thought it would be helpful to send through a reminder about the ins and outs of how guns are bought and sold onsite.

We've put together a blog post which sets out the rules in detail and we also have some information on our banned and restricted list too.

We understand NZ Police are reviewing the law and guidelines around the sale of firearms online. This means the process for buying and selling selected firearms on Trade Me may change in the future. We will keep you updated with the implications of any changes for members.

If you have any questions, please feel free to get in touch with us.

Regards,

The Trust & Safety team
Trust & Safety Blog | Trade Me

----------


## Tommy

> What about doing what the u.s does if there has to be change.... Don't they basicly just send things to the arms officer closest to you then you go in show them who you are, pick up your stuff and leave.
> Wouldn't have to worry about firearm related stuff being dropped at your door when not home, and you have to go in to get your form signed anyway.


Not everyone works near a police station, nor at hours that are convenient to just pop in and out at will. I think we should concentrate on enforcing the laws that we already have (which seem to working more or less), rather than making more laws and hoops to jump through for people _who already obey the law_

----------


## stug

In the U.S. they send to an FFL which is basically a gunshop, so no different from buying from Guncity or H&F.

----------


## zimmer

> You're missing the point, every time you follow the right formula, you can bid or ask a question. Yeah they might email after awhile and ask why you keep using different numbers, but you could have bought firearms well before the send an email.


Had a mate who made an error entering his number (accidentally reversed 2 of the numbers from the previous time he entered it)and TradeMe picked up on it immediately and banned him.  I would say they look for differences between each time you enter your number. Although, there was a rumour a couple of years ago that TM were in possession of a full list of FA licence holders. Scary if that was the case but as I said a rumour.

----------


## Jexla

> It can be and is done by some on line.  When I delt with Aoraki from the feedback I got I am pretty sure they had run my form past their local AO to get it/me verified as legit before they shipped me a boat load of 223, good on them.
> 
> On top of that it wouldnt be hard for a gunshop to buildup and hold a register (or get the police to supply it or have a restricted website) of known AOs / signers as a simple and quick cross check. Something as simple as Wellington AO = Mike Cole = AO666.   Ditto putting in the FAL licence and getting back the owner's name on a website (but no address).
> 
> It isnt rocket science, its dead easy IT stuff that wouldnt cost much to implement like a few thousands of $s.


A few thousand dollars you reckon? What you're forgetting is the actual costs that government departments are charged for IT services.
This is something the would cost MILLIONS of dollars and would have an ongoing cost in order to keep up and would more than likely be down continuously.
Forgetting the costs of Nova pay? - regardless of the issues.





> I have a solution to this that I imagine is pretty unpopular - I don't see the issue as being a sales issue, but a shipping one. Shipping firearms to private addresses, specifically.
> 
> Easy solution, scrap the police order form entirely, instead of heading to the police station to fill out the form, you head to the police station to show them your license and pick up your firearm, which was shipped there by the seller... would take up a slight amount of police time but would be pretty foolproof.


Think about what you're saying, storing extra firearms at a police station that they then have to deal with, police budgets are stretched extremely thin as it is before having to deal with other people's firearms turning up and having to store them securely.

----------


## bully

> Not everyone works near a police station, nor at hours that are convenient to just pop in and out at will. I think we should concentrate on enforcing the laws that we already have (which seem to working more or less), rather than making more laws and hoops to jump through for people _who already obey the law_


I'm not for change either. Just if we had to. And yes it might be a chore to drive in there during business hours. But you have to anyway to get your form signed.
I was just throwing it out there.

----------


## Tommy

"A few thousand dollars you reckon? What you're forgetting is the actual costs that government departments are charged for IT services.
This is something the would cost MILLIONS of dollars and would have an ongoing cost in order to keep up and would more than likely be down continuously.
Forgetting the costs of Nova pay? - regardless of the issues."

Didn't Canada spend obscene amounts trying to do exactly this, figured out it wouldn't work, and just basically just gave up?

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## Jexla

> Didn't Canada spend obscene amounts trying to do exactly this, figured out it wouldn't work, and just basically just gave up?


Correct.

Forbes Welcome

----------


## ebf

gents, pls untwist your panties  :Grin: 

*there is a rather large difference between a central firearm register (ala Canada) and a simple process to validate licence holders for online purchases* (a small % of all firearm sales in NZ)

pls gawd, don't develop an IT system, the consultants alone would charge millions. should be possible to get this done with a simple email to the local AO. and if you have the desire, you can then print it out and file it away...

when I've sold firearms and had to post them, I've always gone to see the local AO to confirm that the details provided by the other party is legit. it is not rocket science...

----------


## screamO

Honestly I don't think anything will happen to her, the same thing happened in 2008 (I will try and find the link). 
If someone wants to acquire a gun illegally it's not that hard.
Impersonating a police officer, well that's a different story! but in todays age Impersonating anything isn't that hard with the tech we have, but still fraud! I think we are just unlucky that firearms are the topic this week. Next week it will be underage drinking / buying smokes where they use the oldest looking underage person they can find to commit a crime.

----------


## stretch

Make it a carbon copy form. Fill it out at the cop shop as you're meant to now. Cops keep one half on file. Dealer calls front desk at same cop shop to confirm details are correct.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Maca49

Do they still make carbon paper! You must be as old as me :Grin:

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## stretch

> Do they still make carbon paper! You must be as old as me


I'm about half your age! For the modern high-tech crowd, you could use a tear-along-the-dotted-line page. You take the bit with both signatures, cops keep the rest for when the dealer calls to confirm.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Maca49

> I'm not for change either. Just if we had to. And yes it might be a chore to drive in there during business hours. But you have to anyway to get your form signed.
> I was just throwing it out there.


And then you get the stations where the AO has decided nobody but him can sign the form, because he likes it that way, so you can only go get it signed when he's working. That means one month of the yr plus sick days he will be missing? :O O:

----------


## veitnamcam

> And then you get the stations where the AO has decided nobody but him can sign the form, because he likes it that way, so you can only go get it signed when he's working. That means one month of the yr plus sick days he will be missing?


More than that! our arms officer covers the whole top half of the south island so bloody good luck meeting him to get anything signed!

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## madjon_

3 years I still haven't seen him

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## stug

The only issue with the old system was the seller verifying that it was an actual Police officer that signed the form. The new rules haven't changed anything apart from it is now the Police that will send the form to the seller. 
Seems interesting though that the Police can make up anew rule when nothing in the arms act has changed.

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## Harryg

> I have a solution to this that I imagine is pretty unpopular - I don't see the issue as being a sales issue, but a shipping one. Shipping firearms to private addresses, specifically.
> 
> Easy solution, scrap the police order form entirely, instead of heading to the police station to fill out the form, you head to the police station to show them your license and pick up your firearm, which was shipped there by the seller... would take up a slight amount of police time but would be pretty foolproof.


easier solution ship to and pickup from local firearm dealer of buyers choice only or pickup

----------


## Beetroot

I like the idea of the Police sending it too the seller.
Seems to be a simple solution to the problem, which should work and not cause a huge influx of extra work to the Police (shouldn't need to charge us for it).

I recently bought a rifle and had it sent to me, I'd filled out a paper form and when I handed it over to the Firearms person they typed it out into some fandagled format I had not seen before. If that was then emailed/faxed by the cops not me, then that saves me time having to try scan it.

I still hope HDPE gets in trouble, $15,000 of fines should do that trick. Knock them of their perches a bit.

----------


## Spudattack

Ironically, she should be advocating that she gets the harshest punishment available as her whole point is that our firearm laws and consequences are too mild! Therefore she is being a hypocrite if she asks for leniency!

----------


## Kiwi Greg

> More than that! our arms officer covers the whole top half of the south island so bloody good luck meeting him to get anything signed!


Nelson, Tasman includes the Coast as well, bloody big area......

----------


## Maca49

Shit guys could we tender to do this on behalf of the police, we have people everywhere! Even off shore, I'm sure we could come up with an in house solution and all go into semi retirement,  :ORLY:

----------


## stretch

> I still hope HDPE gets in trouble


She sure is slippery, that HDPE...  :Wink:

----------


## jackson21

I really hope they do her, just watched tonight's show of them printing out form and sending away, just like that ....not mentioning about QID and police signature forged. Totally misleading public .She clearly had some help to fluke an actual firearms licence number, I don't believe for 1 minute that was luck

----------


## Maca49

Yep I'm also suspecting police help?

----------


## stug

They have several people in their office with firearms licences, bet they used one of theirs. I've finally read the article on the Whaleoil Blog (links in one of the posts on page one) Greg Oconnor suggested the idea to them, he probably told them they would have to use a real licence number or it wouldn't work. 
Typical journalists only telling the side of the story that makes the best story.

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## jakewire

I actually watched this one
Public service my arse.
Trash Journalism at it's worst, that woman is not a journalist she is a front person for a magazine show.
The whole thing tonight  was a public relations smoke screen to get the uneducated masses onside with the aim of making  the police  hesitant to take action
Her actions I believe were criminal.
I have no doubt if that was me I'd have been charged by now or at the least under no illusions that I would not be.
And
I thought rifle and bolt had to be sent separately ?
Is that just a Myth or did I miss the second package ?

----------


## Alonzo



----------


## Maca49

HDPA tit?

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## Rushy

> HDPA tit?


Trust you to notice anything that resembles a nipple.

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## sheppard84

Throw the book at her. I too watched the show tonight and watched as they "forgot" to mention they fraudulently filled out the police officers part of the form and they didn't even show that part of the form on the show.  I mean the term SHOW too, because it sure as shit aint news or journalism.

Signed and shared the petition on FB

That said, there is clearly a weak point in the online buying process that can be misused by those who are not afraid of breaking the law.

Cheers

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## Maca49

Could be a turd coming from her clinched cheeks, or should be!

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## jackson21

I can't see any criminals filling in an online form with a forged Police signature anytime soon. Even they know the potential charges and Lag for getting caught on that one it would not be worth it, far easier to steal one or just obtain black market. This whole article program is a red herring. Even though forms are easy to fill in I am convinced shes had some help from the inside. Think there is more to come out of this yet. Who is this Justin Devine, why do they not show him on TV, this fictitious criminal. They say Gun City rang them twice? Was she speaking in a Man's voice...."Ahem, Justin speaking....

----------


## Rushy

> Could be a turd coming from her clinched cheeks, or should be!


Nah it looks like the mole on my mother in laws ........

----------


## Maca49

> Throw the book at her. I too watched the show tonight and watched as they "forgot" to mention they fraudulently filled out the police officers part of the form and they didn't even show that part of the form on the show.  I mean the term SHOW too, because it sure as shit aint news or journalism.
> 
> Signed and shared the petition on FB
> 
> That said, there is clearly a weak point in the online buying process that can be misused by those who are not afraid of breaking the law.
> 
> Cheers


Yep but burgling the right house would be more productive and harder to trace, and you can sell on the ones you don't want! Yep that's what Crims do

----------


## mikee

> They have several people in their office with firearms licences, bet they used one of theirs.


if that is the case then I guess they ain't"fit and proper" anymore, I foresee license revocations in the future (at least I hope that's what happens cause it would have already happened if it were you or I)

----------


## Pengy

> Nah it looks like the mole on my mother in laws ........



good to have you back mate !

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## Pengy

> if that is the case then I guess they ain't"fit and proper" anymore, I foresee license revocations in the future (at least I hope that's what happens cause it would have already happened if it were you or I)


An interesting one is this.
A little story...
In very recent times, a "mate" and his wife decided that she should apply for a FAL so that she could join hubby on the odd occasion and have her own rifle. On hearing about this, I very quietly, after discussing it with my other half, had a word with the local firearms officer. I told him that the person in question had a history of suicidal tendancies and had been treated for such, so I was a tad concerned about her having a FAL. Ok, so she could most likely have accessed her hubbys firearms anyway, but that aint the point.
He thanked me for my concern, but in the event, was unable to act on the info due to the husband and wife both answering a big fat NO to her having received any physcho treatment.
She got her FAL  :Sad:

----------


## Tommy

> An interesting one is this.
> A little story...
> In very recent times, a "mate" and his wife decided that she should apply for a FAL so that she could join hubby on the odd occasion and have her own rifle. On hearing about this, I very quietly, after discussing it with my other half, had a word with the local firearms officer. I told him that the person in question had a history of suicidal tendancies and had been treated for such, so I was a tad concerned about her having a FAL. Ok, so she could most likely have accessed her hubbys firearms anyway, but that aint the point.
> He thanked me for my concern, but in the event, was unable to act on the info due to the husband and wife both answering a big fat NO to her having received any physcho treatment.
> She got her FAL


So they can't cross check for mental health issues/treatment/history? That's sobering

----------


## Beavis

I see Greg O'Connor is stepping down.

----------


## peril 787b

Noticed the suggestions of having firearms sent a police station or gun shop for collection,  that won't stop those that send it direct to the buyer, it will only affect the ones that follow the rules.

----------


## Tommy

> I see Greg O'Connor is stepping down.


Labour list 2017, guaranteed

----------


## Thirdguy

On a pleasant note, if the aim for this story was to boost the ratings for the poor excuse for a tv show they are running, last nights episode had around 25k less viewers then average according to Heather du Plessis-Allan gun controversy fails to help TV3's Story ratings | Stuff.co.nz

----------


## Spoon

^ That's very pleasing to see.

----------


## Maca49

I think the average NZer is over this type of journalism, bad when they think they are about the law, and especially if the police agree!

----------


## timattalon

> Yep I'm also suspecting police help?


There have been allegations that O'Conner may have been the one helping them. Possibly looking to have a legacy before he steps down. If that is the case (and I actually hope that it is not the case) I would expect him to be charged with "conspiracy to commit"

I think a lot of what O'Conner says makes sense and respect the effort he puts in to keep the police members safe from harm. I'm just not sure that this case showed good judgement.

----------


## 300CALMAN

NZPA president Greg O'Connor to stand down - National - NZ Herald News

Well we will have to watch that SOB lets hope he doesn't make Politician, unfortunately Greg O'Connor will use criminality as an excuse to introduce the laws he wants.

----------


## smidey

I'm sending a mail order form tomorrow, well GC are only accepting forms emailed from police. I spoke to the arms officer who said that it isn't law to do that but GC company policy. The fun thing for me will be seeing how long it takes for the scan an email task to be done as it's not a part if an officers job to be a secretary. 

Sent from my workbench

----------


## timattalon

On a side note did anyone else spot the manual.

My wife asked me what a "SPROTING" rifle is used for. Quality translation skills there........I sh_t you not, it says S.P.R.O.T.I.N.G RIFLE  on the front of the manual.......

----------


## Rushy

> I think the average NZer is over this type of journalism, bad when they think they are about the law, and especially if the police agree!


Maca, take a note of every article on the news tonight (any channel) and then sit back and analyse the content.  I can almost guarantee you that there won't be any actual news worthy articles in amongst it.

----------


## northdude

I think tv is mosty desighned to dumb the audience down and it works

----------


## 7mmwsm

> good to have you back mate !


I was thinking the same thing Pengy.
Rushy's back.

----------


## Grunta

> I'm sending a mail order form tomorrow, well GC are only accepting forms emailed from police. I spoke to the arms officer who said that it isn't law to do that but GC company policy. The fun thing for me will be seeing how long it takes for the scan an email task to be done as it's not a part if an officers job to be a secretary. 
> 
> Sent from my workbench


The local cop shop here has been scanning and sending them the last few years. I love it!, its so friggin simple and one less thing I have to do. they're pretty quick at doing it too surprisingly!

----------


## Rushy

> good to have you back mate !


All Kudos to our young friend departed.  His words of wisdom resonated.

----------


## kotuku

watched the crazy cow with lips like a piece of gashed meat ,and he mate the slobbering fatguts last night .very smarmy about how"they "revealed the loophole and kept the police informed .and how its seems so legit,blahblah.
oops cow ya forgot to inform the viewers that the auckland cops have you under investigation.
  the singular sobering thing they addressed is the worrying habit of some slack couriers dropping firearms on frontdoorsteps and just leaving them there ,apparently even if its a signature required case sometimes.that i do agree with. 
Oconnor stepping doqwn -well where theres smoke theres fire Greg and it seems to further your wee agenda youve shit in your own nest!
 the other thought i have is wtf if these two were so concerned ,why not speak with INSP.Joe Green of PNHQ as he oversees all fireams matters does he not .
 oh dear conclusion another bit of tabloid journalism by a couple of ex parliamentary press gallery bottom dwelling sewerage suckers!

----------


## stug

Be interesting to make a complaint to the Broadcasting Standard(?) in that they haven't shown a fair and unbiased view. They neglected to say that they faked the details of a Police Officer to fool Guncity. They said they did not take the form to the Police this implies that the form was not filled in by Police and makes it seem that Guncity accepted a form that had not been authorised by Police. They also claim to have made up a firearms licence number. This implies they put down any old random number, how Guncity claims to have checked the number and it was valid, so they either know the system by how the Firearms numbers are generated or they actually used a real number.

----------


## kawekakid

Gun city has been a target for a few years  and been the biggest supplier of firearms,  all it takes is  little issue over some stupid reporter to stuff things up for the rest of us 
Silly thing is, she a hopeless reporter trying to make a name for herself .

----------


## dskd

I have decided that we live in a very sad time if people think that most of the other people that live in their society are all that dishonest that they are wiling to do things like fraud and impersonating a member of the police to obtain something they are unlawfully allowed.

----------


## Moutere

Sooner or later we'll be able to trade gear through a smart phone application, exchange QR codes job done.
Then all the unpleasant trust issues and paperwork can be put behind us.

----------


## Woody

> Be interesting to make a complaint to the Broadcasting Standard(?) in that they haven't shown a fair and unbiased view. They neglected to say that they faked the details of a Police Officer to fool Guncity. They said they did not take the form to the Police this implies that the form was not filled in by Police and makes it seem that Guncity accepted a form that had not been authorised by Police. They also claim to have made up a firearms licence number. This implies they put down any old random number, how Guncity claims to have checked the number and it was valid, so they either know the system by how the Firearms numbers are generated or they actually used a real number.


The BSA is a farce and a sick joke. Some associates and I have taken them to task over bullshit spread through TV news in past programs;  (in those cases the issue was about misleading information which supported 1080 poison use) and after 6 months of correspondence going almost to the Courts, the BSA admitted that in law, the media journalists comments and news stories were only ever to be considered as "OPINIONS", and not to be taken as FACT.  While we were on the point of taking NZBC to court over misinformation, as well as the perpetrators behind the misleading reports, the admissions by the BSA meant that any such court action would itself be farcical and a waste of the judiciary's time (and our funds) because NZ journalism does not have to represent facts, but only "journalists opinions".

That the NZ Police or government departments, Ministers or other public servants can use the media to "inform" the public (you) via so-called  "journalists' when these  "non- accuracy rules" apply, is a disgrace and something the NZ public is largely unaware of and government should be ashamed of.  Oh, I forgot, the government is run by politicians! 
Do journalists try to run politicians???   :Wink:

----------


## gsp follower

i presume that imperonating a police officer is still an offence? 
did anyone note that when guncity rang twice a guy took the calls?
if this was you or i we,d still be smarting from the shafting the old bill would be subjecting us to.
done and signed.looks like quite a few yarpies might be in for some comeupppance quite soon :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
what are the odds of her random licence number bieng real given she,d of have to known the licence prefix for a start then pick a random number.methinks thier pet licence holder may have more to do with this than meets the eye.
john cambell is an example of what happens to good journo,s who embarass politicians to much so i guess that helped pull the others in line.

----------


## Maca49

So why no charges as yet! I think the next guy that deceases a scum bag should be able to use the same excuse?

----------


## zimmer

> i presume that imperonating a police officer is still an offence? 
> did anyone note that when guncity rang twice a guy took the calls?
> if this was you or i we,d still be smarting from the shafting the old bill would be subjecting us to.
> done and signed.looks like quite a few yarpies might be in for some comeupppance quite soon
> what are the odds of her random licence number bieng real given she,d of have to known the licence prefix for a start then pick a random number.methinks thier pet licence holder may have more to do with this than meets the eye.
> john cambell is an example of what happens to good journo,s who embarass politicians to much so i guess that helped pull the others in line.


Picking a random number that just happened to be real after all would have odds similar to Lotto methinks - well at least lower division odds.

Looks like dog turd, smells like dog turd, mmmm tastes like do turd.

----------


## gsp follower

i wonder if the cop details were real to given to them by old guns under every bed?? occonnor :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 

any way shit show shite stories and short attention span journolism.



> Looks like dog turd, smells like dog turd, mmmm tastes like do turd.]


maybe untill some bastard trys to chuck your mum out of a home she,s been in 3o plus years or some sack of shit sells you a car that dies the same day then blanks you.
there are journo,s and journos like very other profession :O O:

----------


## smidey

So the police now fill out there own form and attach the order form to it an email to retailer. As if 9am this morning that is the process so they lady at the cop shop said 

Sent from my workbench

----------


## Maca49

And supply the purchaser with all your personal details including your email, well that's watertight, a few gangs will love it. They can email you first to see if your going to be at home for the pick up. Where do all the rock heads come from?

----------


## smidey

It seems to be the right thing from what I can see. It ensures the verification of the buyer is solid and can't be forged

Sent from my workbench

----------


## mikee

> And supply the purchaser with all your personal details including your email, well that's watertight, a few gangs will love it. They can email you first to see if your going to be at home for the pick up. Where do all the rock heads come from?


Well that's the end of me selling with out buyer being able to pickup. No way I'm giving those details out when they are not required.

----------


## grunzter

Had this email from TM today...

----------


## Rushy

> And supply the purchaser with all your personal details including your email, well that's watertight, a few gangs will love it. They can email you first to see if your going to be at home for the pick up. Where do all the rock heads come from?


Where do you live Maca and when are you going out? Oh and where is your safe and what is the combination?

----------


## gsp follower

> And supply the purchaser with all your personal details including your email, well that's watertight, a few gangs will love it


why go thru that hassle when you can get your cuzzie who works in the civilian cop ranks to give you collectors details and pinch the whole lot.

----------


## MassiveAttack

It's amazing how fast the police dropped the "original form must be posted - no scanned or e-mail copies" policy on the transfer form when it suddenly became them who would have to pay for the stamp.

----------


## Maca49

> Where do you live Maca and when are you going out? Oh and where is your safe and what is the combination?


Don't worry Rushy you'd be unlucky to get a crim like Heather buying off you! I'll have to get another email and shipping address and give them an alias, might need a nick name on my licence! :O O:  really serious for E cat, B and C licence holders, stupid stupid

----------


## Maca49

> why go thru that hassle when you can get your cuzzie who works in the civilian cop ranks to give you collectors details and pinch the whole lot.


Yep I agree, we should challenge under the privacy act?

----------


## Grunta

I sold a rifle a few weeks back and the buyer  asked for all my details,  so I gave him them (all false except name) and I got an email back saying for some reasons my details didn't match up at the cop shop. I called him and said I wasn't surprised as they were false, explained I don't give my details out for security reasons. Told him to call me when he was at the cop shop and I'll speak to who ever he was dealing with. So I  got the ph call a day later and the Sargeant came on the ph. I told the Sargeant I wasn't trying to be difficult but I wasn't going to hand all my details to some random person I didn't know. He didn't care, and wanted them, so I politely said it wasn't happening, and that all I wanted to know was that this rooster held a current FAL, and as a seller thats all I need to know. He wasn't a happy chappy, but I couldn't give a fuck, policeman or not, a buyer doesn't need to know my shit!

----------


## 10-Ring

How did you know that it was the police you were talking to? Would of been better for the seller to phone you that he was at such and such police station and then you could've looked the phone number up and called the station yourself.

----------


## Grunta

> How did you know that it was the police you were talking to? Would of been better for the seller to phone you that he was at such and such police station and then you could've looked the phone number up and called the station yourself.


Could have been Tom, Dickinson or Harry, but seeing as he had been to the cop shop in the first instance and finding out my details were false (only the police would know) I would imagine he's got no reason not to go back, and more importantly, I didn't send the rifle till I had the appropriate paperwork.

----------


## Grunta

The system works as it is as long as your a responsible seller. No need to try and complicate a simple process is there?

----------


## PERRISCICABA

> Attachment 41625
> 
> Looks like they faked the lot


So, just my little opinion.
I don't know if this "phone photo" is the real police form thing, but, if it is i spot few problems in between buyer and seller.
*The buyer*: if they produce it to prove anything they are straight away WRONG, as they are falsifying a official document, then committing a crime, if they have use a supposed police officer name without permit they are wrong again
*The seller*: been the seller a very well stablished business the people work for them must be trained to deal with all kinds of situations they may come across, they should be able to identify a not fully completed document(in my opinion), i always have my online forms signed and stamped by the officer who do sight it.

So, in both ways they are wrong!

I believe all certified firearms, ammunition and its variants should have access to a national online firearms database, this way these retailers could double check the buyer information is correct or if the F.A.L. is actually current. For those who are selling privately it is a must to check the appropriate documentation and if not sure if it is legal or valid just call a police station/office and check the details of the person who you intend to "send/deliver" the goods.

Well, hope it make some sense to you guys.

Shame a lot of restrictions has been imposed on us "law" abide and responsible gun owners because someone want/need to prove a point(i must agree it unfortunately is/was a good point)

Cheers.

Mac

----------


## Maca49

Looks like Mr a key is happy with the sting and the way the the law has been amended to close the loop hole. So all ok Heather the criminal probably be knighted for her effort! Hope Tipple bankrupts her!

----------


## Rushy

> Looks like Mr a key is happy with the sting and the way the the law has been amended to close the loop hole. So all ok Heather the criminal probably be knighted for her effort! Hope Tipple bankrupts her!


Breathe Maca, breathe.  Rest in the knowledge that when anarchy descends, we that have access to our firearms will be the ones that will save the nation from all of the insurrection and rebellion.

----------


## jackson21

Hunting and Fishing didn't mind getting on the bandwagon to aid TV3's cause

----------


## zimmer

> Hunting and Fishing didn't mind getting on the bandwagon to aid TV3's cause


Typical business catyness/one ups man ship.
I buy less from H&F than I buy from GS.
I buy nothing from GS.

----------


## Maca49

I see theHearalds bringing up Tipples past to justify these criminal actions? Can't believe no reaction from the police! It's a fickle country we live in, laws for some no for others? Of course I only see in black and white! :Grin:

----------


## Rushy

> Of course I only see in black and white!


And yet you are so grey now.

----------


## 10-Ring

> Looks like Mr a key is happy with the sting and the way the the law has been amended to close the loop hole. So all ok Heather the criminal probably be knighted for her effort! Hope Tipple bankrupts her!


You're not wrong. 100 to 1 young Heather won't be charged and will probably feature in the next issue of Woman's Day as the country's new heroine.

----------


## Rushy

> You're not wrong. 100 to 1 young Heather won't be charged and will probably feature in the next issue of Woman's Day as the country's new heroine.


There is a thing called Woman's Day?  How long have you been in Tokoroa? I lived there in my youth.

----------


## Maca49

> And yet you are so grey now.


At least we still have some to go grey! :Thumbsup:

----------


## Maca49

> There is a thing called Woman's Day?  How long have you been in Tokoroa? I lived there in my youth.


I amazed you can remember back that far :O O:

----------


## Rushy

> I amazed you can remember back that far


First shoot, first beer, first fight, first feel, first car.  The memories are strong Maca.

----------


## Maca49

got any videos you could post? Specially the "feel" bit? :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Rushy

> got any videos you could post? Specially the "feel" bit?


Videos hadn't been invented back then.  I could draw you a picture if you want.

----------


## Maca49

He is my collection, see any we have shared?
All hand painted before cameras and videos :Cool:

----------


## Maca49

And you know what they are really? The result a teacher got when she asked her class to paint candle light! Pretty impressive? I bet she was mortified  :Grin:

----------


## Woody

:15 8 212:

----------


## Rushy

> He is my collection, see any we have shared?Attachment 41714
> All hand painted before cameras and videos


You don't need me to draw.  Centre row middle the one for sure.  Bottom left couldn't hold a candle to her. Ha ha ha ha.

----------


## scotty

> I see theHearalds bringing up Tipples past to justify these criminal actions? Can't believe no reaction from the police! It's a fickle country we live in, laws for some no for others? Of course I only see in black and white!


old news about tipple he committed a crime and did the time  in the states.......its just more journos trying to take the focus off one of their colleagues in the hope she wont get charged ...she committed a crime  so she should be made accountable..... for the greater good is no defense . .....if it was then the bloke who flew a couple of search and rescue missions unliscenced wouldn't have been before the courts...... in other words journos are not above the law.....even tho they may think they are....(.only politicians are above the law.....and a few rich people with really good lawyers...... )...oops was that last part out loud?

----------


## PERRISCICABA

So, Tipple has commited a crime right? And is also advertised that he did serve his time in prison, Right? So when will be the report start her time in prison in this so "righteous" country?
Just my thought.

----------


## Dynastar27

> They usually have a stamp too near the police use only section at the bottom? 
> 
> There has been lots of slander towards firearm owners in the media lately, looks like a useless reporter wants an easy promotion. Hope he gets promoted to prison for forging shit.


Yup when i got the form for my ar 
The officer stamped it 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

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## timattalon

> old news about tipple he committed a crime and did the time  in the states.......its just more journos trying to take the focus off one of their colleagues in the hope she wont get charged ...she committed a crime  so she should be made accountable..... for the greater good is no defense . .....if it was then the bloke who flew a couple of search and rescue missions unliscenced wouldn't have been before the courts...... in other words journos are not above the law.....even tho they may think they are....(.only politicians are above the law.....and a few rich people with really good lawyers...... )...oops was that last part out loud?


I see one difference between the chopper pilot and the reporter. And its a big one.  The reporter set out to INTENTIONALLY break the law. It was  deliberate act and she KNEW she was going to break the law when she did so. The Pilot did NOT go out with the intention of breaking the law. He was there in a guidance role and only made the decision to do what he did when he saw there could be fatal consequences if he did not.

SO

If a bloke who flew a helicopter while not currently licensed in a life and death rescue situation is not permitted to break the rules in that situation then no way in hell should a reporter allowed to break laws of a far more serious note without repercussions. (Fraud / forgery, and illegeally obtaining firearm and clearly her reason for obtaining a firearm was not for a legal purpose)

My thoughts.

----------


## veitnamcam

Big plus one there.

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## jackson21

I believe they conspired to break the law for pecuniary gain......TV3's Story's waning TV ratings and revenue.......they couldn't give a shit about the public as they know damn well no crook would try and obtain a firearm this way with a paper trail leading back to them and all the laws broken, all signed for on paper, Greg Newbold, an actual expert(former felon & Criminologist) backs this up.

The system is far from perfect, but the character of most firearms owners make it work for everyone's benefit.
Maybe there needs some changes, and Police were working on them anyway, but not like this with a headline grabbing journo and Police Union President wanting Police armed 24/7 being the driving force.

----------


## Koshogi

You can expect more "public interest" pieces from TV3. They have contacted Auckland gun clubs attempting to video unlicensed persons shooting.

This isn't over. Somebody at TV3 or their string pullers have an agenda regarding firearms

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## Rushy

> Big plus one there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


Agreed.

----------


## 10-Ring

> There is a thing called Woman's Day?  How long have you been in Tokoroa? I lived there in my youth.


There is such a thing as WD, I've seen women reading it. I've lived in this friendly South Waikato town since 1966 apart from the usual few years experiencing the 'great overseas experience' thing when I was younger plus a few short years in Wellywood.

----------


## Rushy

> There is such a thing as WD, I've seen women reading it. I've lived in this friendly South Waikato town since 1966 apart from the usual few years experiencing the 'great overseas experience' thing when I was younger plus a few short years in Wellywood.


So we were there at the same time.  I left town in 1971 to join the army.

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## Rushy

Shit I have just seen that we are the same age.  We could have gone to school at the same time.

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## Maca49

Hope he isn't a she with your history! :ORLY:

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## Rushy

> Hope he isn't a she with your history!


To classy for me to upkeep Maca.  10 rings is more than I have ever brought.

----------


## Tommy

:Zomg:

----------


## 10-Ring

> Shit I have just seen that we are the same age.  We could have gone to school at the same time.


Tok High School. 6th Form 1969. I'll be 63 this Dec so I might of been a year ahead of you Rushy.

----------


## Rushy

Yeh you might have been.  I am not 63 until next May.  I will PM you my name though just in case we know one another.

----------


## steven

> And supply the purchaser with all your personal details including your email, well that's watertight, a few gangs will love it. They can email you first to see if your going to be at home for the pick up. Where do all the rock heads come from?


Many ppl accept sighting of a licence, the difference is what to "knowing" your email and address?  Bear in mind the form should be legitimate and safe as it has been verified, also if something happens there is a point of investigation to follow.  Alternatively, how hard is it to sit outside guncity and follow you home? or a shooting range? take a picture of your number plate and get the address that way? Both would be harder to trace.

----------


## steven

I'm getting a bit concerned here by the gun fraternity's attitude. Put it this way as a "professional" in my line of work I am used to being tested and having my systems tested.   This brings about improvements by fixing bugs, holes and poor design.   As far as I am concerned the reporter did her job, she proved there was a hole in the system and it has been fixed.  

Gun owners have to be seen to be safe and secure IMHO so the ignorant non-gun users feel safe and have no concerns.  It should be very hard and preferably, impossible for someone without a gun to get  one, simple.  I mean if you are not mentally stable, and/or if you are a criminal then if its easy we legit owners will suffer.  Just look at the illogical, foaming at the mouth academics and other anti-gunners stance, do we really want to hand them an incident with ease?  Cause if one happens it will be bye bye semi-autos and hello "you can own 2 guns and 100 rounds of ammo and have to hand in the brass to get new" before you can eye blink.

----------


## Maca49

She did her job? I thought impersonating a police was a serious offence? Doesn't seem anybody cares. There's a difference between pointing out a " loop hole" and being a criminal on more than one level :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## Friwi

Doing the cleaning in front of our door step is not a bad thing.( revising ourselves any weakness in the system so that bad guys don't get their hand on our guns). But the media should do a bit the same with their shitty " un partial " news and reporters.

----------


## mikee

> I'm getting a bit concerned here by the gun fraternity's attitude. Put it this way as a "professional" in my line of work I am used to being tested and having my systems tested.   This brings about improvements by fixing bugs, holes and poor design.   As far as I am concerned the reporter did her job, she proved there was a hole in the system and it has been fixed.  
> 
> Gun owners have to be seen to be safe and secure IMHO so the ignorant non-gun users feel safe and have no concerns.  It should be very hard and preferably, impossible for someone without a gun to get  one, simple.  I mean if you are not mentally stable, and/or if you are a criminal then if its easy we legit owners will suffer.  Just look at the illogical, foaming at the mouth academics and other anti-gunners stance, do we really want to hand them an incident with ease?  Cause if one happens it will be bye bye semi-autos and hello "you can own 2 guns and 100 rounds of ammo and have to hand in the brass to get new" before you can eye blink.


Um, Thats all good but I think you miss the important points

1. Reporter broke the law
2. Reporter broke the law
3. Reporter  broke the law

If the system need fixing then the police would have done it.
All sales are recorded in the "Dealer Book" which i think must be retained for 5 years, 
It was payed for by C/Card number recorded on the order so its tracable if required

Where was the "licence holder" within arms length  when the picture was taken with the reporter holding the "gun"  (another offence??)

Having brought a number of firearms on line I have had the orders "stamped" or just signed and "not stamped" over the years so the big deal about no stamp is just another red hearing.

No matter what happens the reporter and all others found to be involved must be charged and court process followed. Otherwise we have one rule for us and another for "them"

----------


## Maca49

Yep but her husband is friends with the PM so I doubt anything will proceed :Yuush:

----------


## Krameranzac

And here is her latest attack on us. Apparently our firearm laws are on par with the US. Can you say scaremongering, alarmist lies?

In the gun with mum after rifle stunt - Opinion - NZ Herald News

----------


## Beavis

The way I see it, any potential flaw could have been pointed out with a simple story and discussion. But instead they chose to do something dramatic, to drum up ratings, to stir fear, to break the law and think that people won't bat an eyelid. This was just irresponsible behaviour through and through. Her logic that it's ok to break the law when you think you can advance a political agenda (and don't try and tell me that the MSM doesn't have one), just smacks of ignorance and pomposity. This is just an attack on gun ownership, she has shown her hand with the opinion piece in the Herald. For how many years have we been using the mail order system for firearm transfers? And how many crimes have occurred as a _result_ of us being able to do so? If there is any justice in this country, everyone complicit will be charged as a regular citizen would for committing equal crimes.

----------


## gsp follower

try robbing a bank then using the ''i was just trying to show thier security deficencies for the public'' defence.? :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
or stealing a car to show the owner ''they need better door locks and insurance'' :Wink: ??
dont people get charged for climbing up buildings to protest??
this bird and others conspired  to and falsly obtained a *GUN* and I*NPERSONATED A POLICE OFFICER.* :O O:

----------


## Beavis

Guys it's official, we're all a bunch of cunts.

Our gun-loving fraternity spiralling ?out of control? | Opinion | Stuff.co.nz

----------


## jakewire

Un ...... believable.
We do these people come from.

----------


## rossi.45

> I'm getting a bit concerned here by the gun fraternity's attitude. Put it this way as a "professional" in my line of work I am used to being tested and having my systems tested.   This brings about improvements by fixing bugs, holes and poor design.   As far as I am concerned the reporter did her job, she proved there was a hole in the system and it has been fixed.  
> 
> Gun owners have to be seen to be safe and secure IMHO so the ignorant non-gun users feel safe and have no concerns.  It should be very hard and preferably, impossible for someone without a gun to get  one, simple.  I mean if you are not mentally stable, and/or if you are a criminal then if its easy we legit owners will suffer.  Just look at the illogical, foaming at the mouth academics and other anti-gunners stance, do we really want to hand them an incident with ease?  Cause if one happens it will be bye bye semi-autos and hello "you can own 2 guns and 100 rounds of ammo and have to hand in the brass to get new" before you can eye blink.


this is the part where i get concerned  . ..  if a fallow gun owner thinks ' she ' tested the system and that she is a professional who did her job . .  . 

there was NO test, be very clear about that, GUNCITY was setup to fail with the help of the police . .  can ya not see when the game is rigged steven. . . does that not ring any alarm bells for you ?

----------


## Grunta

> Guys it's official, we're all a bunch of cunts.
> 
> Our gun-loving fraternity spiralling ?out of control? | Opinion | Stuff.co.nz


What a read! As Jake says - where do these people come from!! Granted, like anything in life, there's cowboys, but really??!!, I think theres an opportunity out there to make an actual worth while reading news website. Journalist  (shouldn't even use that word) really aren't what they used to be.  

Gave me a laugh whilst feeding one of the wee one's  so all good  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Beetroot

Unfortunately, many people in the general public no absolutely nothing about firearms and their owners and will blindly listen to these "journalists", without doing any of their own research.

It is extremely import that we as gun owners, set the best possible example we can of ourselves and to as many people as possible.
Otherwise we face becoming the opposition of most of the country and can kiss our rights goodbye, just as has happened in the UK and Australia.
I know most of us think Americans are crazy, but most of them are committed to positively influencing as many people as possible, even though they have it written in their Constitution they are allowed them, not a luxury we have.

----------


## Rushy

It would appear that it is a lot easier for firearms owners to be responsible than it is for journalists to be responsible.  Bunch of dickheads they are.

----------


## Maca49

Out for a good story, true, false, lies, deception, anything that sells  and self promotes, it's a worrying trend all right Rushy

----------


## Timmay

> Guys it's official, we're all a bunch of cunts.
> 
> Our gun-loving fraternity spiralling ?out of control? | Opinion | Stuff.co.nz


Stop reading stuff. It's cancer.

----------


## rossi.45

is there something we can do to make our displeasure felt about this matter, as individuals or as a group ?

my partner just got off telling me i am ' all talk ' bless her heart  . . in this case i don't want that to be true.

i am pissed off  . . i want that woman and those that helped her stopped in their tracks, because if we don't they'll do it again. they can't help themselves the sick little puppies.

first off i am going to email GUNCITY and offer them my support . .. its not much but its a start, i wish others would also do the same.

if they TV3 pulled this shite in the US the NRA and gun owners would be all over their arse.

----------


## Boaraxa

> Stop reading stuff. It's cancer.


This guy is a nutter looks like hes been at it for a while to there are older articles hes done previously about duck shooting I wont post them as there not worth reading its a wonder the paper even publishes his shit .

Must say though the guys got balls even if they are the size of 7shot & probably an inverted cock if wear as crazy as he,s making out its a wonder he puts his name on the article   :O O:

----------


## Nickoli

> This guy is a nutter looks like hes been at it for a while to there are older articles hes done previously about duck shooting I wont post them as there not worth reading its a wonder the paper even publishes his shit .
> 
> Must say though the guys got balls even if they are the size of 7shot & probably an inverted cock if wear as crazy as he,s making out its a wonder he puts his name on the article


This was my response to his article:

"Calm down Liberace, enough with the scare tactics and culture of fear. This is not the USA, and our record is better than that. Your baseless, bullshit article is neither addressing the cause of violent crime, or any of it's symptoms: you are targeting law abiding firearms owners. Any death that occurs as a result of a licensed individual is a result of failing to observe one of the 7 basic rules. Any death as a result of an un-licensed or criminal element is not the fault of those who are licensed (provided the 7 rules have been followed). More people are killed every year in drowning accidents: by your warped "logic" we should ban: swimming, boating, fishing, diving etc. Get out of town for a change instead of sitting behind a desk and spouting off rubbish on a topic you know nothing about!! This stuff gets media time? REALLY? Max Christoffersen - go back to your lattes and pink polo shirt collection."

----------


## Tahr

> This was my response to his article:
> 
> "Calm down Liberace, enough with the scare tactics and culture of fear. This is not the USA, and our record is better than that. Your baseless, bullshit article is neither addressing the cause of violent crime, or any of it's symptoms: you are targeting law abiding firearms owners. Any death that occurs as a result of a licensed individual is a result of failing to observe one of the 7 basic rules. Any death as a result of an un-licensed or criminal element is not the fault of those who are licensed (provided the 7 rules have been followed). More people are killed every year in drowning accidents: by your warped "logic" we should ban: swimming, boating, fishing, diving etc. Get out of town for a change instead of sitting behind a desk and spouting off rubbish on a topic you know nothing about!! This stuff gets media time? REALLY? Max Christoffersen - go back to your lattes and pink polo shirt collection."


Wow. That will certainly enhance his and his supporters' views of our tolerant, issue focussed and balanced approach. Not.

----------


## Krameranzac

C


> This was my response to his article:
> 
> "Calm down Liberace, enough with the scare tactics and culture of fear. This is not the USA, and our record is better than that. Your baseless, bullshit article is neither addressing the cause of violent crime, or any of it's symptoms: you are targeting law abiding firearms owners. Any death that occurs as a result of a licensed individual is a result of failing to observe one of the 7 basic rules. Any death as a result of an un-licensed or criminal element is not the fault of those who are licensed (provided the 7 rules have been followed). More people are killed every year in drowning accidents: by your warped "logic" we should ban: swimming, boating, fishing, diving etc. Get out of town for a change instead of sitting behind a desk and spouting off rubbish on a topic you know nothing about!! This stuff gets media time? REALLY? Max Christoffersen - go back to your lattes and pink polo shirt collection."


Where did you post that?

----------


## PERRISCICABA

If these reporters think like "Americans" they should think about this just for a moment. 



Mac

----------


## 300CALMAN

The problem is simple, these people don't want anyone except the Government to have a firearm. Regardless of what they may say that is the end game.

----------


## Nickoli

> Wow. That will certainly enhance his and his supporters' views of our tolerant, issue focussed and balanced approach. Not.


Nothing will change the opinion of a zealot. Sarcasm is the lowest level of wit, you should try to say what you mean rather than play games.

----------


## Nickoli

> C
> 
> Where did you post that?


Was pretty passive to be honest: posted a link on Faeces Book with the comment.

----------


## Chop3r

> Wow. That will certainly enhance his and his supporters' views of our tolerant, issue focussed and balanced approach. Not.


Oh so very true

----------


## Nickoli

> Oh so very true


As above. 
Granted, the response is perhaps a little heated, but you cannot change the minds of people like this: they have brought into their idiom hook line and sinker. 
The media aren't going to help either, yet no one is proposing a response that will work: attacking my response helps no one (my response may not have helped either, but it made me feel better).

----------


## PERRISCICABA

> The problem is simple, these people don't want anyone except the Government to have a firearm. Regardless of what they may say that is the end game.

----------


## gsp follower

he same week umpteen people died on the roads most armed with a weapon you dont need a licence to buy??
2 or 3 babies/children were killed by thier own family?? yet gun crime as the lowest homicide factor gets occonnors and storys attention. basicly cos the real crimes and thier fix are to hard to involve and might reqire some racially hard truths and a good long look at our own kids...we are a easy law abiding mostly target whose protests just getv written off as guncrazed.
 guess the real problems have lost thier pull and soundbite ability. hang on who havent we picked on for a while no real reason but lets pull thier chain anyway we know they.l bite but it,l just look like guncrazy neandathols. :O O:

----------


## Tahr

FFS. All of this defensiveness. And Americanisms.
We are killing each other with our guns for heaven's sake. That's why there is attention on us.

Deflecting the argument back to road, children and swimming deaths just illustrates our lack of self awareness about our inability to blame ourselves. We need to get our shit together, stop talking and behaving like cocks and every single one of us should present to the public as being responsible, with our guns and our mouths.

Nickoli. Is that plain enough for you?

----------


## Nickoli

> FFS. All of this defensiveness. And Americanisms.
> We are killing each other with our guns for heaven's sake. That's why there is attention on us.
> 
> Deflecting the argument back to road, children and swimming deaths just illustrates our lack of self awareness about our inability to blame ourselves. We need to get our shit together, stop talking and behaving like cocks and every single one of us should present to the public as being responsible, with our guns and our mouths.
> 
> Nickoli. Is that plain enough for you?


Thar - I addressed this in my response: any failure is because someone hasn't followed the 7 BASIC rules. Don't get your panties bunched up in a wad - I acknowledge that there are areas where work is needed. Sarcasm pisses me off. :Sick:

----------


## Savage1

I I never read all of this thread however I thought I'd add a few points of my own.

The current system is a farce and needs to be sorted, however that doesn't give a reporter a right to break the law in order to expose it, she could have gone about it in a much more sensible and organised way. I'd love to be the one charging her but that would go to somebody a long way above me.

Whenever I've filled out these forms for people I've always scanned and emailed them or posted them is offical police envelopes for them, saves the buyer a stamp and let's me sleep a little easier. I've been doing this for a couple of years now. I also make sure the delivery address is the address which the licence is registered too, when they want it sent to their work I confirm the address it is being sent to. 

O'Conner has always appeared to be a great representative of the cops on the street, I quite like the guy and I'm gutted that he's leaving. I will reserve any slagging of him until I actually know what involvement he has had, I'm sick of reading the bs speculation.

----------


## Beavis

> FFS. All of this defensiveness. And Americanisms.
> We are killing each other with our guns for heaven's sake. That's why there is attention on us.
> 
> Deflecting the argument back to road, children and swimming deaths just illustrates our lack of self awareness about our inability to blame ourselves. We need to get our shit together, stop talking and behaving like cocks and every single one of us should present to the public as being responsible, with our guns and our mouths.
> 
> Nickoli. Is that plain enough for you?


The reason we ought to draw attention to swimming, drinking, driving deaths etc is because it is a much greater problem than gun death. The amount of people killed with firearms is miniscule in the big picture. You would be ignorant of reality to think that people won't get killed with guns, regardless of what gun control measures are put in place. Think cause and effect. The deaths grabbing headlines are from people mishandling firearms and not identifying what they're shooting at. They aren't from people mail ordering guns to commit homicide. How will the media's firearm control measures stop licensed gun owners from fucking up and killing someone? I've heard things like gun registration, gun bans, make it harder to get a license. Great. It's not going to stop licensed shooters from unintentionally shooting another human.

----------


## gsp follower

> FFS. All of this defensiveness. And Americanisms.
> We are killing each other with our guns for heaven's sake. That's why there is attention on us.
> 
> Deflecting the argument back to road, children and swimming deaths just illustrates our lack of self awareness about our inability to blame ourselves. We need to get our shit together, stop talking and behaving like cocks and every single one of us should present to the public as being responsible, with our guns and our mouths.
> 
> Nickoli. Is that plain enough for you?


its not a epedemic tahr it one or two clustered together making it look that way.
shit the cops rightly or wrongly shot just as many in a week or so to put it in perspective.
yes where ever you have a potentialy dangerous weapon you ill have mistakes and stupidity.how we minimise that is upto every one of us. your right and yes americanisms dont apply cos we have no right to defence of ourselves or liberty in our constitution.
how is it that helped by someone pointing out that fraud and criminality will help you to make things worse.
by organising a conspiracy to defraud and taking advantage of a theoretical problem that i doubt is putting guns in crims hands cos its to much risk. i can see shipping guns privately becoming extinct and h&f and the like rubbing thier hands with glee.



> *Great. It's not going to stop licensed shooters from unintentionally shooting another human*.


sadly no even people who train week in week out to actually shoot people or not, get it wrong.
 how can we who dont be expected to be faultlesssly perfect? we cant but can do our best to be safe and instill it in others.



> O'Conner has always appeared to be a great representative of the cops on the street,


then tell the truth about the 58 FIREARMS  siezed in 7 weeks as usual its what he not saying that roots his arguement ie replica firearms air rifles :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

----------


## Rushy

Guys we are all like the white ( or black) pawns on a chess board.  We are on the same side.  There is sense in what Thar has said and sense in what Nickoli has said.  Passion as well in both.  

We should heed the wisdom of ancient strategists.  They still have application today.

Divide et Impera (Divide and Conquer) - Julius Caesar 

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. - Sun Tsu

Even one accidental death at the hands of a legitimate licensed firearms owner is far too many.

----------


## 300CALMAN

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/r...aths/toll.html

Ban Cycling
Ban Motorcyclists
Put speed Governors in all cars to 80kph

New Zealand statistics | Alcohol.org.nz

Ban Alcohol

Quad bike safety | Worksafe

Ban Quad Bikes

All kill more people than hunting accidents. I am not saying that we should not do more to stop accidents but collective punishment is just Stalinist politics.

Unfortunately it is a philosophical problem these people have with private firearm ownership. They will use anything they can.

----------


## PERRISCICABA

Forgive me if i "offend" any of you guys, it is/was not my intention at all, just "a fact" to me.
As i understand most of this "thing" that we are discussing right now came from people who "kind of" compare our NZ society with the "americans", so that hence my "american" post.(I am sorry @Tahr)
Yes, we do know that our law has problems and we should "ALL TOGETHER" work to help fix it, reporters who look at create havoc is in pursuit of disagreement, division and dissolution, this way they will win over us good people who follow the (may be "fail") but law.
We need to be together and support each other in this matter and stop find ways to justify GC or the reporter actions, what is right is right and the wrong will come up some time soon so the law breakers will be punished.
If "we" know so much about the law and the "loop holes" that it has, why not study it a bit more to help the police and other authorities relate to make it safer.

Thank you for your time.

Mac

----------


## jakewire

Surely didn't offend me Mac.

----------


## 300CALMAN

We are NOT the US and our laws cannot be compared.  If we want to give up our "Privilege" to own arms then just keep apologising and it will happen just as the unknown of journalist from the Waikato says. 

PERRISCICABA don't be an apologist ,there is still sense in some of those "Americanisms" or call them what you want. Still amusing :Grin: 

It's a Pity, I think we should all stick together and not fight.

----------


## PERRISCICABA

@300CALMAN, AGREED with the stick together!
My apologies are because I am a quiet polite guy and don't want to be miss interpreted. 
As you mention, I want to keep together and to wih all of you guys as one "team"!

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## Maca49

Guys at then end of the day the people that know the best will not consult, look at mountain safety treatment, and will change as they see best, no doubt a university qualification and a politician looking for a vote will be the most important qualification in changing into the law. 
I agree with the above comments, there are far worse things going on in NZ than legal firearms. The illegal ones are a different matter all together. Another interesting stat would be how many accidents the police themselves have in handling their firearms, I believe there's a few? Life's full of dangers it's one of the problems of being born! We are becoming to sanitized.

----------


## Krameranzac

COLFO statement from their Facebook page

COLFO congratulates the Police in moving quickly to correct a deficiency in the procedure to obtain firearms by mail order, as demonstrated by the illegal and fraudulent purchase of a .22 calibre rifle by TV3.

There is a process called internal or operational audit (including fraud) which, carried out properly by appropriately qualified professionals should identify system weaknesses such as the one highlighted here.  COLFO suggests the police use proper processes and appropriately qualified people in future and are available to assist in the provision of such professionals.

COLFO also  understands that this deficiency was brought to the attention of TV3 by the Police Union and we therefore wonder why the deficiency was not raised by the union through proper Police channels. What was the true motivation behind this public display of criminal behaviour?  Does this set a precedent that it is acceptable to break the law  just to show that you can.

 COLFO knows of at least three firearms dealers who have not been officially told of the change and hopes the police will quickly address this deficiency and communicate properly and directly with all affected parties

----------


## Maca49

Am I sucking cock here?

----------


## Rushy

> Am I sucking cock here?


I don't think so Maca, does your mouth feel full?

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## Maca49

You'll never know! :Thumbsup:

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## Sasquatch

That article from the Waikato times was psychologically disturbing, his "suspicious" views on Hunters is not only alarming but incredibly insulting to say the least. And ironically HE is the one that is "paranoid" especially trying to stipulate that we are all ticking time bombs being as he called it "nutters" 

I have met some of the nicest down to earth people in the firearm industry through reputable gun clubs and organizations like this site, COLFO etc. We are NOT nutters, far from it. Obviously I can't speak for everyone in NZ, no one can but we need to stick together on this "mass anti-gun hysteria" that's being portrayed on the TV. It's predominately infected with misinformation and deception which is why many of us law-abiding citizens frown and feel angry about it... 

It's a battle of the publics minds as of lately, that is the true reason that drives this agenda - They (The media in this case) want the masses to think we are ALL irresponsible, gun-loving nutters and according to the headlines in places like stuff (spew) or TV3, yes! There is a huge gun problem in NZ! 

What a total psyop. As many have said here, justice _needs_ to be served so yes, Heather should be prosecuted.

On a happier note COLFO will be our saving grace and we all should encourage more new/active shooters & hunters to sign up. 

Sasquatch out

----------


## Krameranzac

And timed nicely to coincide with up and coming changes to the arms act. See enclosed response from Police Minister to a letter of mine on the subject.

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## 300CALMAN

Differing points of view may skew focus on crime stats

Haha

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## timattalon

> Guys it's official, we're all a bunch of cunts.
> 
> Our gun-loving fraternity spiralling ?out of control? | Opinion | Stuff.co.nz


Going by his statistics there are nearly as many guns in country as there are cars. Cars kill hundreds of people each year and as mentioned before you dont need a license to buy one. Perhaps TV3 could do a story on that......Oh wait, then everyone will see how twisted they really are. As for stuff, there is a reason its names that- Stuff all fact checking, Stuff all truth, and Stuff you if you dont like all the fringe element reporters we found......

There used to be an editor who would fact check before something goes to print- now Stuff just prints what it likes and if it is later found to be (woefully) inaccurate or wrong, they just change it after everyone has already taken the lies for truth. They dont even check the spelling and I have spotted some real primary school level shockers in there.

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## Beavis

You'll get the argument that cars have a legitimate use so the risk is acceptable. This is where the argument between pro and anti and some in between breaks down. We don't see anything wrong with what we do. They hate what we do.

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## Krameranzac

And the Dom Post puts its two cents worth in.

Editorial: New Zealand's gun laws still too lax | Stuff.co.nz

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## keneff

I don't know why some have compared us, as gun owners, with the US. The US has the RIGHT to own and bear arms embedded in law by their Constitution. We don't even have a Constitution; and the PRIVILEGE of owning and bearing arms is "granted" to us by politicians elected by us to represent us - and Greg O'Connor wants to be one of them. He plans to ride his hobby-horse in to town and clean up. The sad thing is that he will quite likely to succeed. An even sadder thing is that we will likely let him. The woman broke laws and put herself in this position. And let's not forget the origin of this whole issue - Greg O'Connor. TV3's dumb reporter let her stupid self be manipulated into this situation. She should face consequences just as you or I would - for being so bloody stupid, if nothing else. The fact is, she has been used by O'Connor - no great intellect himself - but she has flopped straight into his agenda. Savage1, with all due respect, the boss of your union is a conniving, manipulative, self-serving, media whore with political ambitions. Good that a hole has been patched, but if O'Connor was for real he would have taken it to the Commissioner, not a so-called journalist. Fact is, he has dropped her in the shit. I hope he catches some of the splatter.

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## tetawa

When the day comes that it is as easy to get a Firearms Licence as it is to drive legally on our roads, I'll REALY worry.

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## Rushy

> When the day comes that it is as easy to get a Firearms Licence as it is to drive legally on our roads, I'll REALY worry.


I don't understand tetawa.  It is a lot more difficult to get a drivers licence than an FAL.  Learners can only drive under supervision (lessons really), restricted can only drive by themselves or with a full license holder, full license takes a couple of years to get.  Am I missing your point?

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## veitnamcam

My parents and or partner and a freind were not grilled about my sutability to own a motorvehicle before being given a drivers licence Rushy.

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## Rushy

> My parents and or partner and a freind were not grilled about my sutability to own a motorvehicle before being given a drivers licence Rushy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


OK I get that bit but I personally think it should be a tougher row to hoe to get an FAL as currently there is nothing in the process that even ensures that the recipient can handle a firearm safely.

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## veitnamcam

Weĺl even profesionally trained army and police still have incidents so what is a day at the range going to prove?

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## Rushy

> Weĺl even profesionally trained army and police still have incidents so what is a day at the range going to prove?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


Accepted, and so do professionally trained doctors and surgeons but I suspect it would be a whole lot worse without the training.  No level of training will ever completely eliminate the hazards associated with anything but training goes a very long way to reducing the likelihood that they will occur. There will always be the possibility of momentary inattention and all the training in the world will never get rid of the stupidity factor in those that have it.

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## Sidney

True Rushy.... but a license process that requires training would therefore only be required if it can be established that we have a significant problem as a result of inexperience.

If as I suspect, we have more issues with experienced people where is the benefit to reducing harm by evaluating those without experience....?  

Resources are scarce, and someone always has to pay... we better be certain we dedicate any resources to areas where it can be established that we have significant benefit, it is not necessarily conclusive that those without experience are more dangerous...

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## tetawa

I should have explained a bit better, it's very easy to visit this country, hire a camper van or car with close to zero experience and drive.

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## Kscott

'Let's ditch firearms hysterics' - stuff-nation | Stuff.co.nz

A bit of common sense by Gary here.

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## Sasquatch

@Kscott you bet me to it ;-) 

Yes great to see. It was getting hard reading all this negativity & made-up non-sense as of lately...

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## Rushy

Balanced and articulate.

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## Dan88

its a pity about some of the comments made on the opinion piece by anti hunters

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## Tommy

> its a pity about some of the comments made on the opinion piece by anti hunters


Yep some are on another planet. Went for a drive this evening to onehunga, and came across this in Mt Albert.. Had to do a U turn and get a picture or two:

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## Gibo

> its a pity about some of the comments made on the opinion piece by ignorant oxygen thieves


I agree Dan 100%

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## Rushy

Well bugger me

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## Maca49

No thanks! :Sick:

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## Rushy

> No thanks!


It was an exclamation not an offer.

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## Kiwi Greg

> It was an exclamation not an offer.


That's your story & you stick to it  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Savage1

> It was an exclamation not an offer.


Dam it! Talk about build us up then shoot us down.

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## jackson21

That's a great article, my feeling always were once all bulshit aside the amount of accidents to the amount of people engaged in firearms activity are relatively low to amount of use. Will never be zero unfortunately, nature of the beast. 
Our firearms laws, based on the actual person work well with ramped levels of compliance to category , maybe this simplicity and that it actually works well just annoys the anti-brigade

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## Friwi

Journalists are ranting at guns and guns owners ,and we are the target of thoses recent ( dramatic) news and articles, because they have nothing else to vomit onto at the moment and guns are an easy subject to talk about...
If next week a fleet of Japanese boats come and kills some whales in our waters, the attention of the public will change and refocus to that new drama, and we might even join the greenies on this one.
And back in Japan people will probably argue that they are doing scientific research on whales and that the killing is justified.
I recon they are doing culinary research on whales myself!

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## Rushy

> That's your story & you stick to it





> Dam it! Talk about build us up then shoot us down.


So I wake up this morning to "pick on Rushy day". Who knew?  I would have taken the day off work to celebrate.  Good on ya guys.

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## 7mmsaum

> So I wake up this morning to "pick on Rushy day". Who knew?  I would have taken the day off work to celebrate.  Good on ya guys.


Panic not Rushy i have your back, walk slowly but purposely towards fame and ignore their acrid odour and fashion sense 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## BobGibson

Looks like trash reporting by TV3s 3D program didn't work for them.
3D program is going to be axed Oh dear what a sham -NOT  ha ha ha

----------


## zimmer

> Looks like trash reporting by TV3s 3D program didn't work for them.
> 3D program is going to be axed Oh dear what a sham -NOT  ha ha ha


I thought all the mischief was from HdPA on Story @ 7:00?

----------


## BobGibson

oops yep my mistake

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## Beavis

So the net effect of this is that I can't get a mail order form for some ammunition because the arms officer has gone home. Fuck you TV3.

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## Moutere

What gets me is that the form is the method with which we which use to vet the purchaser as a licence holder.
Some one has to break the law in order to use it for false pretence. 
If the journalist doesn't get prosecuted, it demonstrates that there was never any consequence intended to keep people honest.

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## Sideshow

> What gets me is that the form is the method with which we which use to vet the purchaser as a licence holder.
> Some one has to break the law in order to use it for false pretence. 
> If the journalist doesn't get prosecuted, it demonstrates that there was never any consequence intended to keep people honest.


Yes she should have take the gun and investigated how hard it is to poach and rob a bank :Redbullsmiley:  What dose the police commissioner say about this?

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## timattalon

> Yes she should have take the gun and investigated how hard it is to poach and rob a bank What dose the police commissioner say about this?


Looking at the way she was handling it and trying to remember clearly (and poorly) rehearsed lines, I would suggest that she knows so little about them she would probably have trouble finding the dangerous end.......so robbing a bank would be a recipe for disaster. Someone would get hurt but it would be due to incompetence rather than anything intentional......I think she may have wanted to avoid receiving a Darwin award........Pity. I think she was on the right track to earn one....

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## gsp follower

i cant be fecked trolling thru the whole thread to see if you guys have picked up on this or not but.
did you see garner interview with a certain ex candidate for the hb coucil one lusk ??
now does garner possesss a firearms licence ?
if no as i suspect then cos lusk was supplying him with a rifle to shoot at deer in deer fenced paddocks what the hell was going on.
THE LAW NOW AS I UNDERSTAND IS IF YOUR TAKING A UNLICENCED  person out theres one gun?NOT ONE EACH
you do not supply him with a rifle to WANDER ABOUT and play silly buggers with cos he was obviously a novice at best just going on what was shown
selective enforcement a? just like tama iti but any restrictive laws will be on our arses not these sound bite seeking tosspots.

----------


## smidey

something is happening, hope it goes all the way
Police search home of Heather du Plessis-Allan - Entertainment - NZ Herald News

Oh, i see the herald has listed it under the entertainment section. ironic i think as that is what it is but would like to see it under criminal  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Maca49

Heathers having her apartment searched by police at present?? I don't think they'll find much, maybe just an old guy asleep in the bed?

----------


## Maca49

Shit her draws are messy :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## Woody

But but but-- Paul Henry says it was GREAT JOURNALISM on her part.   :ORLY: 

FFS :Sick:

----------


## Maca49

Yeah but hes a wanker anyway! :O O:

----------


## sako75

Do the crime do the time. Journalists cannot expect to impersonate a police office and get away with it by saying they were doing the public a favour

----------


## gsp follower

> Do the crime do the time. Journalists cannot expect to impersonate a police office and get away with it by saying they were doing the public a favour


not to mention fraudulent use of a document and possibly more supplyingg false details to police maybe.

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## Marty Henry

Will be interesting how this plays out there are multiple possible charges impersonating a police officer  fraudulent use of a document unlawfull possession of a firearm issueing a false statement possibly others. Considering the possible outcomes  could she be deported to SA?

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## Maca49

Yahoo she would have to take Mr Soper!!! an all round win!!

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## Kiwi Greg

> not to mention fraudulent use of a document and possibly more supplyingg false details to police maybe.


It appears the form never went to the police, if it had they would have found she didn't have a licence.

It appears she filled out the police part of the form, which is quite a serious matter apparently.

----------


## 10-Ring

As we all know, (or should do) these apparent flagrant criminal acts by Heather du Plessis-Allan were not done in the best interests of the public at all, rather, the public will have their best interests served by her prosecution if these crimes are proved.

----------


## gundoc

According to her husband (Soper) it appears that they were advised yesterday by the Police that a search warrant would be served today.  "Hello?  Mr Escobar, this is a courtesy call to advise you that we will be searching your home for drugs and other incriminating evidence tomorrow morning.  Yes Mr Escobar, that is my account number.  Thank you for your co-operation!"  What a fecking joke!

----------


## Maca49

Busy night in the Soper home last night then? Little fire going outback? :Yuush:

----------


## Carpe Diem

I thought it funny the camera shot was going through her paper receipts - Hang on wasn't this a online / mail order transaction? wouldn't all the incriminating document altering stuff be on the computers and be images printed off to be provided?

Maybe they are old school with their forgeries... but it looked like the boys in blue are still looking for the carbon copies... Don't get it??

----------


## Tommy

> I thought it funny the camera shot was going through her paper receipts - Hang on wasn't this a online / mail order transaction? wouldn't all the incriminating document altering stuff be on the computers and be images printed off to be provided?
> 
> Maybe they are old school with their forgeries... but it looked like the boys in blue are still looking for the carbon copies... Don't get it??


That's the thing, she forged the police bit which is handwritten

----------


## Rushy

> I thought it funny the camera shot was going through her paper receipts - Hang on wasn't this a online / mail order transaction? wouldn't all the incriminating document altering stuff be on the computers and be images printed off to be provided?
> 
> Maybe they are old school with their forgeries... but it looked like the boys in blue are still looking for the carbon copies... Don't get it??


They were looking for samples of her hand writing CD. So that they could prove it was her that filled out he form.

----------


## Carpe Diem

Gotcha - I guess I just thought Microsoft would have multiple saved copies of the document as it was altered and printed off would be enough to point the finger, but - yes you're right boys... first to prove its her writing - but if it was me wouldn't you get someone like a intern to do that for you... 'cos she and Duncan were laughing about it (in another un related situation) just the other day on the radio that you "always blame the intern for this kind of stuff" - Its never you ! so maybe a little trip into the office wouldn't hurt too?

----------


## outdoorlad

The way her hubby & a few friendly MP's are banging on about it in the media, I think she realises that a conviction might be rather inconvenient & being a journalist isn't going to get her a pass.

----------


## shift14

> The way her hubby & a few friendly MP's are banging on about it in the media, I think she realises that a conviction might be rather inconvenient & being a journalist isn't going to get her a pass.


Cry me a river luvvy.

You and I would probably loose our jobs mate....fit and proper, loss of security clearance etc., the Feds could make it as ugly as they wanted to for somebody without a media profile.

B

----------


## Rushy

Assuming that charges will be made against Heather, there is an opportunity here for the Court to make a real statement.  Send her arse to prison I say.

----------


## scotty

> could she be deported to SA?


we should be so lucky but

this isn't Australia....... (although she was suggesting we should be the other day)

----------


## 300CALMAN

> Looks like trash reporting by TV3s 3D program didn't work for them.
> 3D program is going to be axed Oh dear what a sham -NOT  ha ha ha


Yes it's "story" that's done the dirty. However I hope the demise of 3D makes TV3 either change it's nasty tabloid style journalism or puts them out of business.

----------


## keneff

I wonder where Greg Connor is right now? Remember, HE set this up. I hope the cops are checking out HIS knickers drawer as well. I hope the poo splatters far and wide on this one

----------


## kotuku

Seems in light of Dave T's getting the cops to check his GunCity records and their finding  no irregularities (contrary to media claims)that" Heifer DPA" is being hung out to dry .of course we have her dopey husband 'bawy sober",who looks like hes always been sniffing the pinot noir bottle ,chiming in supporting his bit of muff,plus the usual array of dopey politicians inclusive of Peter Dunne(what does Alan Simmons see in him for gods sake). One of course hopes also that greg oconnor gets a good arse kick as well if proceedings do eventuate!

----------


## GravelBen

I reckon it would have been more ironic if they got another 'journalist' to break into her house and steal some stuff, just to illustrate (in the public interest of course) how you can illegally obtain things by disregarding legal and ethical behaviour.

----------


## scotty

> I wonder where Greg Connor is right now? Remember, HE set this up. I hope the cops are checking out HIS knickers drawer as well. I hope the poo splatters far and wide on this one


I was thinking this myself..... call me a conspiracy theorist but....... maybe this is all his doing...... you know find a dumb patsy journalist to commit the crime show them how to do it  and sit back and say "I told you so" ....all to further his own political agenda.....last thing we need is this slimy little weasel sitting in an MPs seat, even the political parties should be keeping him at the proverbial bargepole length  , a dangerous little man who should not get any power

----------


## timattalon

> Gotcha - I guess I just thought Microsoft would have multiple saved copies of the document as it was altered and printed off would be enough to point the finger, but - yes you're right boys... first to prove its her writing - but if it was me wouldn't you get someone like a intern to do that for you... 'cos she and Duncan were laughing about it (in another un related situation) just the other day on the radio that you "always blame the intern for this kind of stuff" - Its never you ! so maybe a little trip into the office wouldn't hurt too?



Hang on, She is the intern..........

----------


## timattalon

I see she was advocating becoming part of Australia, but wasnt she also keen on a flag change? And correct me if I am wrong but isn't the main reason the flag change is warranted the fact that it looks like too much like Australia's? 

If we dont want to look similar to Ozzys flag, why in hell we want it  to be the SAME ????????????

She is about as ditzy as it gets. As soon as TV3 realises she is about as effective as a reporter as raw chicken is a cure for food poisoning, they will make the smart choice and dump them both. 

And its not like she could be considered the eye candy .....Clearly that could be the reason Garner is there...

----------


## gsp follower

aint it funny if the cops were,nt doing thier utmost to investigate a civilian lawbreaker she,d be all over them. :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
 YOU COMMITTED FRAUD AND IMPERSONATED A COP  TO HIGHLIGHT A SITUATION THE COPS AREADY KNEW ABOUT?? UNDER YOUR OWN ADMISSION,\.
GAME OVER

----------


## GravelBen

I'd say she impersonated a cop and commited fraud for financial gain - its a business and viewer attention means advertising money.

----------


## gsp follower

''i stand by the journalism'' then like a good journo you should be prepared to accept the consequences

British journalists face five years in Indonesian ...

Al-Jazeera journalists sentenced to three years in...

Two journalists arrested for story on intelligence...

your not in thier class nor is your exposay but you should be prepared to show some of thier integrity :Angry: .

----------


## C404

> I reckon it would have been more ironic if they got another 'journalist' to break into her house and steal some stuff, just to illustrate (in the public interest of course) how you can illegally obtain things by disregarding legal and ethical behaviour.


kaching!
 You win mate!This is what I have been trying to write, but couldnt find the words, she broke the law, plain and simple

----------


## Beavis

> I'd say she impersonated a cop and commited fraud for financial gain - its a business and viewer attention means advertising money.


 This is my thinking on the matter. Her job is journalism. She needs viewers to have a show and make money. She does sensational stories to get viewers. She did a story where she broke multiple laws to create a sensational story = committing a crime for financial gain.

----------


## R93

I can't believe all the support she is getting tho.
It is just wrong. 

If it was anyone of us that did it.....

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

----------


## Spudattack

> I reckon it would have been more ironic if they got another 'journalist' to break into her house and steal some stuff, just to illustrate (in the public interest of course) how you can illegally obtain things by disregarding legal and ethical behaviour.


The real irony is they would have to break fewer laws than she did to do this!

----------


## stug

An interesting take on was it a "loophole" by another journalist.

David Fisher: Did they prove a loophole? Or simply break the law? - Opinion - NZ Herald News

----------


## Tommy

> This is my thinking on the matter. Her job is journalism. She needs viewers to have a show and make money. She does sensational stories to get viewers. She did a story where she broke multiple laws to create a sensational story = committing a crime for financial gain.


Committing a crime for financial gain, with a firearm involved being an aggravating factor

----------


## Beavis

> I can't believe all the support she is getting tho.
> It is just wrong. 
> 
> If it was anyone of us that did it.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


The logic implied seems to be - what she did was ok because guns.

----------


## Thirdguy

https://twitter.com/barrysoper/statu...605440/photo/1
The search warrant was issued for Forgery and Obtaining by deception, I really hope the Obtaining by deception charge sticks and gets a decent sentence.

----------


## Tommy

Prison sentence possible for Heather du Plessis Allan's gun control story - National - NZ Herald News

So it turns out the police asked to speak to the staff involved, by they shut up shop and refused to be interviewed, hence the search.

----------


## Rushy

Hanging by the neck, drawing out of the viscera and quartering (as was seen in the Mel Gibson movie Braveheart) ought to be seriously considered.

----------


## Spudattack

For her next sting she plans to hold up a pharmacy with a knife, then tell us there is a "loophole" with regards to getting prescription drugs without a prescription, all you need is a knife.

Then when they arrest her for armed robbery and possession of controlled substances she will bleat that it was in public interest and demand leniency......

Sent from my SM-G360G using Tapatalk

----------


## 300CALMAN

> An interesting take on was it a "loophole" by another journalist.
> 
> David Fisher: Did they prove a loophole? Or simply break the law? - Opinion - NZ Herald News


Far out a Journo who looks at things logically... Big ups to him.

----------


## steven

I think you guys are missing the closure, here it is,

"It came after a former judge slammed the house raid, saying journalists who break the laws in pursuit of stories are acting as the "eyes and ears" of the public."

That strikes me as the closest thing to a judicial review / court case result where the police/Guncity have such a weak case the judge not only throws it out but awards costs against them.

----------


## Tommy

> I think you guys are missing the closure, here it is,
> 
> "It came after a former judge slammed the house raid, saying journalists who break the laws in pursuit of stories are acting as the "eyes and ears" of the public."
> 
> That strikes me as the closest thing to a judicial review / court case result where the police/Guncity have such a weak case the judge not only throws it out but awards costs against them.


Yeah it must be shithouse calling in favours from 'former' judges. The shame!

----------


## GravelBen

> "It came after a former judge slammed the house raid, saying journalists who break the laws in pursuit of stories are acting as the "eyes and ears" of the public."


Wonder if they'd say the same thing if a journalist broke into their house looking for a story...

----------


## Friwi

I think pretty much all the journos are hammering in the public head that what she did was for a good cause and that she should not be prosecuted. But that is plain wrong, I would love to see a down to earth judge sentence her behind bar and set a precedent ( or a reminder) to all those arrogant journos who think they can act above the law.

----------


## Maca49

Would this not set a precedent that the signing of the form can be done by anyone? The law has to be inforced, at the very least with a conviction, it cannot be swept under the carpet I'm appalled with the carry on, she was merely going for ratings for her show :X X:

----------


## Simon

This sums up the issue nicely.
TV3's gun purchase story may have created a problem not fixed one, says barrister - National - NZ Herald News
There was no problem.
Plan and simple she has broken the law and should face the consequences.

----------


## stug

This article says she can't use a "public interest" defence

Lawyer claims data shows criminals never interested in mail-order gun 'loophole' | Stuff.co.nz

Canterbury University media law expert Professor Ursula Cheer said journalists had to weigh up the risk of prosecution when they operated on the fringes of the law pursuing "public interest" stories.

Equally, police also had the discretion not to pursue a prosecution.

"Although the police have the power to search the homes of journalists, there is case law that states this should not be done in a heavy-handed way," Cheer said.

"So such searches should not be used unless truly essential and there must not be a substantial risk of journalistic sources drying up."

She added there was a common misconception that in cases such as du Plessis-Allan's, a journalist could claim a public interest defense.

That was only available in civil matters, such as when media defended themselves from defamation accusations

----------


## Kscott

> So it turns out the police asked to speak to the staff involved, by they shut up shop and refused to be interviewed, hence the search.


Just to put some perspective on this. You have the right, in New Zealand, to say "I am maintaining my right to silence" when question by the Police. This applies to you, me, your mate, your mother and everyone. This is the reason we have appropriate judicial law in NZ, rather than the ad-loc random legal process in Russia, Malaysia, Thailand, USA and many other countries. Want to live in a country where the answer to a Police question comes from the end of a baton ?

Just because you may disagree with the particular circumstances doesn't dilute the process you have the option to exercise.

The posts for death, evisceration, and avoidance of a legal process we all all entitled to, is today in NZ, somewhat sickening. Simply because of an opinion people have, publicly.

Discussion is one thing, rampant mob behaviour because of the belief and obsession one is right, is quite sad.

----------


## Friwi

Well, hopefully she will have a fair trial, and if she is not doing just home detention and community service, she will be able to write about the life conditions in  mt Eden prison.

----------


## Sidney

> Just to put some perspective on this. You have the right, in New Zealand, to say "I am maintaining my right to silence" when question by the Police. This applies to you, me, your mate, your mother and everyone. This is the reason we have appropriate judicial law in NZ, rather than the ad-loc random legal process in Russia, Malaysia, Thailand, USA and many other countries. Want to live in a country where the answer to a Police question comes from the end of a baton ?
> 
> Just because you may disagree with the particular circumstances doesn't dilute the process you have the option to exercise.
> 
> The posts for death, evisceration, and avoidance of a legal process we all all entitled to, is today in NZ, somewhat sickening. Simply because of an opinion people have, publicly.
> 
> Discussion is one thing, rampant mob behaviour because of the belief and obsession one is right, is quite sad.


Thats fine, but don't cry foul when the police then exercise a search warrant to ensure they have the necessary evidence to back up a potential prosecution.
The whinging from HDPA and Soper is not justified if they refused to speak to the police, the police are entitled to search under warrant on the basis of reasonable grounds for specified items, if a crime has been committed.  Its pretty clear that that is the case.

Whether the police choose to prosecute or not is a matter of discretion on their part, but they always do that with the consideration of the strength of their case in the first instance and then other considerations.  It is quite pathetic to refuse to speak to the police and then claim that a search shouldn't have occurred as they would have provided the information required.... they had already refused...!!

The fact is, in spite of the media dribble about this -  there was no loophole, and there was no actual problem.  Despite that this circus broke the law, and as Aunty Ursula points out, there is no defence of public interest for criminal activity.

----------


## gimp

I imagine there were approx zero cases ever of fraudulent mail order forms before this

----------


## stretch

> I imagine there were approx zero cases ever of fraudulent mail order forms before this


TV3's gun purchase story may have created a problem not fixed one, says barrister

_Nicholas Taylor said he has 18 years experience in firearms cases and reviewed almost 10,000 of those cases to find not a single one involved the mail order exploit currently the focus of the police investigation.

"What I discovered is I haven't had a single case in 18 years of being a barrister specialising in firearms law in which a firearm has been found by police or in someone's unlawful possession that has been obtained this way. There isn't a case I can name or have come across."_

----------


## Rushy

N


> The posts for death, evisceration, and avoidance of a legal process we all all entitled to, is today in NZ, somewhat sickening. Simply because of an opinion people have, publicly.
> 
> Discussion is one thing, rampant mob behaviour because of the belief and obsession one is right, is quite sad.


The comments made around hanging, drawing and quartering (and public flogging in another thread) were mine and no one else's so no rampant mob behaviour at all, just a single individual whose view on such things sits somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan. I am entitled to my view and absolutely defend  your right to the view you have that supports a more refined, cultured politically corrected and somewhat less barbaric New Zealand society than I would have.

----------


## Tommy

> Just to put some perspective on this. You have the right, in New Zealand, to say "I am maintaining my right to silence" when question by the Police. This applies to you, me, your mate, your mother and everyone. This is the reason we have appropriate judicial law in NZ, rather than the ad-loc random legal process in Russia, Malaysia, Thailand, USA and many other countries. Want to live in a country where the answer to a Police question comes from the end of a baton ?
> 
> Just because you may disagree with the particular circumstances doesn't dilute the process you have the option to exercise.
> 
> The posts for death, evisceration, and avoidance of a legal process we all all entitled to, is today in NZ, somewhat sickening. Simply because of an opinion people have, publicly.
> 
> Discussion is one thing, rampant mob behaviour because of the belief and obsession one is right, is quite sad.


If they were 'exposing a loophole' as they claim to be, you'd think they'd be upfront with what they did and how they went about it.

----------


## Kscott

> Thats fine, but don't cry foul when the police then exercise a search warrant to ensure they have the necessary evidence to back up a potential prosecution.


Oh I absolutely agree 100%.

I was merely pointing out the right to silence that everyone enjoys in NZ, and exercising that right appeared to be frowned upon.

----------


## Kscott

> N
> 
> The comments made around hanging, drawing and quartering (and public flogging in another thread) were mine and no one else's so no rampant mob behaviour at all, just a single individual whose view on such things sits somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan. I am entitled to my view and absolutely defend  your right to the view you have that supports a more refined, cultured politically corrected and somewhat less barbaric New Zealand society than I would have.


I should've explained, the rampant mob behaviour that has been displayed online in multiple forums, as well as FB and blogs. Yours isn't the only one Rushy  :Wink:

----------


## top gun

It is not just the silly bag at TV3 who is in deep doggy poo, it is her partner in crime Garner, the TV3 exec who authorised the scam to proceed AND a certain Police Assn president who had only a week or so previously been bleating about " not knowing how crims got illegal guns"?????   And, then this schemozzle occurred.  I don't believe in coincidences!!!  I firmly believe that this whole thing was dreamed up to try to expose a NON-EXISTENT loophole in the mail order procedure for us law abiding persons to legally obtain firearms by remote control.

 As others have stated " THERE WAS NO LOOPHOLE".

MESSRS "SILLY BAG",GARNER ETC ETC ARE ALL GUILTY OF SEVERAL SERIOUS CRIMES & IF THE COPS DON'T PROSECUTE ALL OF THEM???  THEN I AM QUITE CONFIDENT THAT SOMEONE IN THE VICINITY OF CHRISTCHURCH WILL!!!!!

  EVERYONE:  WATCH THIS SPACE.  JUSTICE WILL BE SERVED EVENTUALLY.

    Beers to all law abiding firearm owners.

----------


## zimmer

For your first posting mate you picked a doozie thread. You are not trying to draw us out are u?

----------


## Maca49

> Just to put some perspective on this. You have the right, in New Zealand, to say "I am maintaining my right to silence" when question by the Police. This applies to you, me, your mate, your mother and everyone. This is the reason we have appropriate judicial law in NZ, rather than the ad-loc random legal process in Russia, Malaysia, Thailand, USA and many other countries. Want to live in a country where the answer to a Police question comes from the end of a baton ?
> 
> Just because you may disagree with the particular circumstances doesn't dilute the process you have the option to exercise.
> 
> The posts for death, evisceration, and avoidance of a legal process we all all entitled to, is today in NZ, somewhat sickening. Simply because of an opinion people have, publicly.
> 
> Discussion is one thing, rampant mob behaviour because of the belief and obsession one is right, is quite sad.


The end of a baton sounds good to me in certain circumstances :ORLY:

----------


## Barefoot

> The end of a baton sounds good to me in certain circumstances


We don't need to know about your bedroom antics.

----------


## gsp follower

MESSRS "SILLY BAG",GARNER ETC ETC ARE ALL GUILTY OF SEVERAL SERIOUS CRIMES & IF THE COPS DON'T PROSECUTE ALL OF THEM??? THEN I AM QUITE CONFIDENT THAT SOMEONE IN THE VICINITY OF CHRISTCHURCH WILL!!!!!

EVERYONE: WATCH THIS SPACE. JUSTICE WILL BE SERVED EVENTUALLY

prety arrogant of garner to flout the laws by going with lusk a week or two afterwould and thumbing his/thier noses at the one gun  rule for non licence holders hunting with a licenced owner.

----------


## Maca49

> We don't need to know about your bedroom antics.


I was taught by a local cop, his trunnions always smelt funny :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## muzza

Methinks you used the wrong term , dude 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trunnion

----------


## muzza

Probably you meant this word

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baton_(law_enforcement)

----------


## Tommy

Truncheon my son

----------


## Woody

Dongey nockers; cosh's; f-kin CLUBS.
I knew one cop many years back who carried one in his hip pocket,  only 8 inches long, but with a lead core. Shit it was good fun watching him clean out the pub at ten past 6 O'clock. It worked good on knees and not too many of the hard bastards in that wild town came back for a second dose.

----------


## Maca49

Who gives a fuck, my computer tells me!

----------


## 300CALMAN

> Oh I absolutely agree 100%.
> 
> I was merely pointing out the right to silence that everyone enjoys in NZ, and exercising that right appeared to be frowned upon.


No not at all. But to complain publicly (as a Journalist) when the Police exercise their duty and then undertake a legal search?  Priceless.

Mob Justice??? Maybe but legit firearms owners are becoming pretty sick an tired of being demonized by the Media. Mob Frustration at injustice is more like it.

----------


## Rushy

> It is not just the silly bag at TV3 who is in deep doggy poo, it is her partner in crime Garner, the TV3 exec who authorised the scam to proceed AND a certain Police Assn president who had only a week or so previously been bleating about " not knowing how crims got illegal guns"?????   And, then this schemozzle occurred.  I don't believe in coincidences!!!  I firmly believe that this whole thing was dreamed up to try to expose a NON-EXISTENT loophole in the mail order procedure for us law abiding persons to legally obtain firearms by remote control.
> 
>  As others have stated " THERE WAS NO LOOPHOLE".
> 
> MESSRS "SILLY BAG",GARNER ETC ETC ARE ALL GUILTY OF SEVERAL SERIOUS CRIMES & IF THE COPS DON'T PROSECUTE ALL OF THEM???  THEN I AM QUITE CONFIDENT THAT SOMEONE IN THE VICINITY OF CHRISTCHURCH WILL!!!!!
> 
>   EVERYONE:  WATCH THIS SPACE.  JUSTICE WILL BE SERVED EVENTUALLY.
> 
>     Beers to all law abiding firearm owners.


Welcome Top Gun.  I'll have a Waikato please.

----------


## Rushy

> We don't need to know about your bedroom antics.


Now I know what all the noise through the wall at his Bach is about.

----------


## Rushy

> Dongey nockers; cosh's; f-kin CLUBS.
> I knew one cop many years back who carried one in his hip pocket,  only 8 inches long, but with a lead core. Shit it was good fun watching him clean out the pub at ten past 6 O'clock. It worked good on knees and not too many of the hard bastards in that wild town came back for a second dose.


Ahhh the good old days when police dispensed liberal doses of street justice.

----------


## top gun

Nope definitely not.  Wouldn't dream of provoking anyone (except people who try to denigrate us law abiding firearm owners)
 I have been watching this subject since day one & have been in communication with some of the people involved and I know that one + one = two  which makes them all guilty of fraudulently forging a police officer's name etc  & the illegal use of the Arms Office stamp.

 I'm in the trade ( 20 years ) & I know that there were/are NO loopholes in the mail order system to close.!!

  I think everyone on this forum wants to see the perpetrators get their collective beans!!!   If the police don't do their legal duty then the Tipple lawyer probably will ( I hope??) & from past incidents that is the most likely scenario.
 Keep watching this space!!!! 

 Note:  yesterdays NZ Herald had a pretty fair write up of the current state of affairs on this subject.( 3rd Dec page A15 )

----------


## 10-Ring

Did the fraudulent document have the Arms Office stamp on it?

----------


## top gun

> Hanging by the neck, drawing out of the viscera and quartering (as was seen in the Mel Gibson movie Braveheart) ought to be seriously considered.


Shit oh dear Rushy!!!!     I've only been here 5 minutes.   I hope I never offend you ????
Hopefully you'll give me a wee warning before the knife gets sharpened???? Eh???

----------


## Scouser

> Shit oh dear Rushy!!!!     I've only been here 5 minutes.   I hope I never offend you ????
> Hopefully you'll give me a wee warning before the knife gets sharpened???? Eh???


 @top gun  Rushy doesn't 'do' knives....uses an axe...... :ORLY:

----------


## top gun

> Welcome Top Gun.  I'll have a Waikato please.


    What sized jar Rushy?????

----------


## top gun

> @top gun  Rushy doesn't 'do' knives....uses an axe......


    A VERY blunt one naturally!!!, eh???

----------


## gadgetman

> No not at all. But to complain publicly (as a Journalist) when the Police exercise their duty and then undertake a legal search?  Priceless.
> 
> Mob Justice??? Maybe but legit firearms owners are becoming pretty sick an tired of being demonized by the Media. Mob Frustration at injustice is more like it.


And the media world are acting as a mob as well trying to dispense their own 'bush justice' trial by media of anyone else they have a gripe against. As has been pointed out that there are cars that can go faster than our open road speed limit, drugs can be sent via the mail system, you can rob a dairy with a knife, obtain and possess a firearm illegally, drive with no WOF/Rego, .... These are not loopholes they are criminal acts and if you get caught doing any of them you should not complain. Oh the hypocrisy.

----------


## Jexla

> Did the fraudulent document have the Arms Office stamp on it?


No it didn't, but this was never a legal requirement.

Also, went and got a mail order form signed today for some ammo, the form has now changed, I won't go over all the changes but the most odd part about it is they ask you what type of firearm you will be using the ammo in.... What the fuck....

Haven't seen anyone talk about this here yet, might have missed it, but now the police officer before they sign your form look your name up in their system to assure you're still fit to hold a FAL.
As if I had somehow not had my licence taken off me after being convicted of a crime where I should have lost it, I'd go and try get a mail order form? That'll catch lots of people out, not.
Then after this cops check the officer told me he now sends it to the firearms head office for more checks.

They really went a mile with this without any legislation change didn't they?

----------


## kotuku

well said gadget -youve smacked the bloody nail right on the swede!my only other comment is the learned judges so called letter to the police commissioner ,in my reading contained some subtle but definite hints of consequences if the matter was not seen in a more favourable light for our little stars. why allude to events that occurred 20yrs ago ,events it appeaers that consisted of police carrying out their duties and encountering a cocksure lawyer who due to an apparent shortcoming was able to prevent a search etc etc.
 i dont know how much regulation applies to these blokes once retired But if i was cheif justice Id be ringing and asking him to refrain from this type of tactic whilst an active police investigation is in progress,and as a retired judge he should stay retired and furthermore make his correspondence confidential!
 the right to hold an opinion is not denied -the modus operandi of expressing said opinion is in this case bloody debatable!

----------


## Tommy

@Jexla, did you have to show them your drivers license as well as your firearms license? So much wtf

----------


## Maca49

> No it didn't, but this was never a legal requirement.
> 
> Also, went and got a mail order form signed today for some ammo, the form has now changed, I won't go over all the changes but the most odd part about it is they ask you what type of firearm you will be using the ammo in.... What the fuck....
> 
> Haven't seen anyone talk about this here yet, might have missed it, but now the police officer before they sign your form look your name up in their system to assure you're still fit to hold a FAL.
> As if I had somehow not had my licence taken off me after being convicted of a crime where I should have lost it, I'd go and try get a mail order form? That'll catch lots of people out, not.
> Then after this cops check the officer told me he now sends it to the firearms head office for more checks.
> 
> They really went a mile with this without any legislation change didn't they?


Just tell bullshit, what rifle, I fire .22 thru my 12 gauge

----------


## Rushy

> Shit oh dear Rushy!!!!     I've only been here 5 minutes.   I hope I never offend you ????
> Hopefully you'll give me a wee warning before the knife gets sharpened???? Eh???


Top gun you will learn by the elapse of time that I am the forum's premier piss taker.  No subject is sacred (although I steer away from techno and dog discussions) and no one is immune and for fucks sake don't believe more than half of anything I ever say.  I have never been known to drink (guzzle, yes, but drink, no).  Grew up sitting on a crate of Waikato quart bottles just over the hill from your town in Tokoroa.  Quite partial to the odd drop still.

----------


## gadgetman

> Top gun you will learn by the elapse of time that I am the forum's premier piss taker.  No subject is sacred (although I steer away from techno and dog discussions) and no one is immune and for fucks sake don't believe more than half of anything I ever say.  I have never been known to drink (guzzle, yes, but drink, no).  Grew up sitting on a crate of Waikato quart bottles just over the hill from your town in Tokoroa.  Quite partial to the odd drop still.


Damn it Rushy! Now *you're* making the stuff sound like it has something to do with the long drop.

----------


## Jexla

> @Jexla, did you have to show them your drivers license as well as your firearms license? So much wtf


No, I assumed that was for purchase of an air gun and proving your age. I left it blank and the cop said nothing.
If he asked for it I would have said I don't have one, jumped in my car and left.

Be interesting if they come back to me asking about me writing CZ75 for my 9mm ammo when I am still waiting for my B,E,C interviews.

Now that I think about it I should have tried my luck and left them blank.

----------


## gsp follower

> Welcome Top Gun.  I'll have a Waikato please.


jesus i lived on that stuff when duck shooting there out of cambridge with me late uncle.
got marinated so often that i even ended up playing a rugby game for cambridge united seniors .
never while in charge of a gun or car  tho but any other time was open slather.
found waikato for morning tea about as hard to digest as old style tui tho..
found the close your eyes open the throat and tommorrow be damned method most helpful

----------


## Rushy

> jesus i lived on that stuff when duck shooting there out of cambridge with me late uncle.
> got marinated so often that i even ended up playing a rugby game for cambridge united seniors .
> never while in charge of a gun or car  tho but any other time was open slather.
> found waikato for morning tea about as hard to digest as old style tui tho..
> found the close your eyes open the throat and tommorrow be damned method most helpful


So you liked the King of beers then.  Good on ya mate!

----------


## Maca49

You'll also come to realise @topgun there are a few guys on here with very bad taste :Thumbsup:

----------


## gsp follower

> You'll also come to realise @topgun there are a few guys on here with very bad taste


''how very dare you sir'' :Grin: 
waikato and tui are nz,s guinness :O O:

----------


## gadgetman

> ''how very dare you sir''
> waikato and tui are nz,s guinness


Now I know why the stunted growth mate.

----------


## Maca49

Oh shit I've heard it all! Comparing two Shiite arsed production beers to that glorious Irish gem Called Guinness  aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhheeedddd :Thumbsup:

----------


## Sideshow

> No it didn't, but this was never a legal requirement.
> 
> Also, went and got a mail order form signed today for some ammo, the form has now changed, I won't go over all the changes but the most odd part about it is they ask you what type of firearm you will be using the ammo in.... What the fuck....
> 
> Haven't seen anyone talk about this here yet, might have missed it, but now the police officer before they sign your form look your name up in their system to assure you're still fit to hold a FAL.
> As if I had somehow not had my licence taken off me after being convicted of a crime where I should have lost it, I'd go and try get a mail order form? That'll catch lots of people out, not.
> Then after this cops check the officer told me he now sends it to the firearms head office for more checks.
> 
> They really went a mile with this without any legislation change didn't they?


I'd tell them through my gun....
If they then ask what gun I would say the one I use with this ammo..
If they still ask I'd then ask them to show me the legislation that states where I need to name this firearm.
If they can then point that out I'd then tell em..
 :Thumbsup:

----------


## Jexla

> I'd tell them through my gun....
> If they then ask what gun I would say the one I use with this ammo..
> If they still ask I'd then ask them to show me the legislation that states where I need to name this firearm.
> If they can then point that out I'd then tell em..


Pretty much, go order some rounds and tell me how that goes.

On second thought in the legislation it says the POL whatever form needs to be filled out. They've just changed the form....

----------


## top gun

> Did the fraudulent document have the Arms Office stamp on it?


   It should have?? & if it didn't then it should have raised alarm bells. I'll try to find out from my sources.

----------


## top gun

> No it didn't, but this was never a legal requirement.
> 
> Also, went and got a mail order form signed today for some ammo, the form has now changed, I won't go over all the changes but the most odd part about it is they ask you what type of firearm you will be using the ammo in.... What the fuck....
> 
> Haven't seen anyone talk about this here yet, might have missed it, but now the police officer before they sign your form look your name up in their system to assure you're still fit to hold a FAL.
> As if I had somehow not had my licence taken off me after being convicted of a crime where I should have lost it, I'd go and try get a mail order form? That'll catch lots of people out, not.
> Then after this cops check the officer told me he now sends it to the firearms head office for more checks.
> 
> They really went a mile with this without any legislation change didn't they?


   Are you able to tell us how you know that the form that GC received didn't have the Police " Arms Office" stamp on it?????   Without naming names!!!

----------


## Kscott

GC released an image of the actual form used, it's on the WhaleOil website.

----------


## Tommy

> It should have?? & if it didn't then it should have raised alarm bells. I'll try to find out from my sources.


Some stations did and some didn't. That was a cause of confusion, there's no standard way they did it. Some insisted on serial numbers, calibers, every single detail of the firearm or ammo(which they weren't really entitled to do), some wanted the sellers FAL number and address..  And some just looked at your FAL and signed and dated it without even looking at the rest, because that's all it is supposed to be: To check you actually hold a license on the day, and are in a suitable state of mind, period.

----------


## gadgetman

> Are you able to tell us how you know that the form that GC received didn't have the Police " Arms Office" stamp on it?????   Without naming names!!!


And earlier in the thread.

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...52/#post407467

----------


## top gun

> jesus i lived on that stuff when duck shooting there out of cambridge with me late uncle.
> got marinated so often that i even ended up playing a rugby game for cambridge united seniors .
> never while in charge of a gun or car  tho but any other time was open slather.
> found waikato for morning tea about as hard to digest as old style tui tho..
> found the close your eyes open the throat and tommorrow be damned method most helpful


   Too bad the old waikato XXXX died a death eh???   That stuff had lumps in it!!  & I used tell people that it was syphoned out of the waikato river just nth of Huntly and put straight into the bottles.   Shit it had a bit of character.

----------


## top gun

> You'll also come to realise @topgun there are a few guys on here with very bad taste


 Maca, I hope you're not saying that you drink Steinlager pure & hold your glass with your little finger cocked out to one side?????

           Jeez wayne, I hope that's not true!!!!!

----------


## top gun

> GC released an image of the actual form used, it's on the WhaleOil website.


 Did it have the pretty stamp on the bottom right hand corner????

----------


## Tommy

> Maca, I hope you're not saying that you drink Steinlager pure & hold your glass with your little finger cocked out to one side?????
> 
>            Jeez wayne, I hope that's not true!!!!!


The only people I know who drink Steinies are those speedway sidecar guys, even the solo guys drink Lion Red or better

----------


## mikee

> Did it have the pretty stamp on the bottom right hand corner????


FWIW all my mailorder forms have never had "the stamp" I think there was no set "standard" AO's worked to....................until now it seems

----------


## gsp follower

> Too bad the old waikato XXXX died a death eh???   That stuff had lumps in it!!  & I used tell people that it was syphoned out of the waikato river just nth of Huntly and put straight into the bottles.   Shit it had a bit of character.


thats one way of describing it topgun.
needing to be spooned out the can/bottle is another :Grin: 
my uncle used to give db to his sick stock seen it given to horses with crook guts to.

----------


## Maca49

> Maca, I hope you're not saying that you drink Steinlager pure & hold your glass with your little finger cocked out to one side?????
> 
>            Jeez wayne, I hope that's not true!!!!!


Nope and nor do the Irish! Another good one is Zywiec from Poland! I tend to try anything that's different, but not fussy  :Grin:

----------


## Rushy

> Oh shit I've heard it all! Comparing two Shiite arsed production beers to that glorious Irish gem Called Guinness  aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhheeedddd


Guinness pales by comparison to Waikato Maca.

----------


## Maca49

Your a sick man @Rushy

----------


## Rushy

> Your a sick man @Rushy


Haven't been to see the doc so wouldn't know Maca.

----------


## GravelBen

Until I joined this forum I never knew there was anybody that actually drinks Waikato. I guess I've known people who drink Ranfurly and Double Brown though, so I shouldn't be suprised.

----------


## Rushy

> Until I joined this forum I never knew there was anybody that actually drinks Waikato.


Oh what a sheltered life you have led.  Come North and we shall let you partake of the King of beers.  It comes with a free bowel cleansing for those that have never drank the elixir of life and nectar of the gods that Waikato is.

----------


## Barefoot

> Until I joined this forum I never knew there was anybody that actually drinks Waikato.


There are 5 or 6 in the country and they all hang out with Rushy

----------


## tiroatedson

> There are 5 or 6 in the country and they all hang out with Rushy


There's a few more than 5 or 6 ....I've been known to partake of that particular brew...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## Beavis

Confirmed reports that HDPA is attempting to gain access to lower NI ranges and look at people's gun licenses.

----------


## AzumitH

I admire her enthusiasm at least.

----------


## Rushy

> There's a few more than 5 or 6 ....I've been known to partake of that particular brew...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ignore Barefoot and good on ya for having superb taste.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Confirmed reports that HDPA is attempting to gain access to lower NI ranges and look at people's gun licenses.


To get their number?

----------


## jakewire

> There's a few more than 5 or 6 ....I've been known to partake of that particular brew...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That makes 7 of yous  then.

----------


## Beavis

> To get their number?


Who knows. Nothing good I would imagine.

----------


## Rushy

> That makes 7 of yous  then.


I sense an increasing ground swell of discerning Waikato drinkers in our membership.  The forum may need to change its name to nzhuntingshootingandwaikatodrinking.

----------


## Dan88

maybe she is trying to get someone elses FAL number to prove another "loophole" that you  can steal a FAL number or some such nonsense

----------


## Woody

I gallon of guinnes will sort him out Maca49

----------


## veitnamcam

> I sense an increasing ground swell of discerning Waikato drinkers in our membership.  The forum may need to change its name to nzhuntingshootingandwaikatodrinking.


Perhaps you could funnel, colonic irrigation style 152.9 quarts of it up HDPA arse and maybe she may see things in  a different light?

----------


## Maca49

> Haven't been to see the doc so wouldn't know Maca.


I've booked you in with my son, he's got  small dia, but very long fingers, he's happy, looking for new patients, not fussy  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Maca49

> Confirmed reports that HDPA is attempting to gain access to lower NI ranges and look at people's gun licenses.


I'd give her a look! :Psmiley:

----------


## Maca49

> I gallon of guinnes will sort him out Maca49


It would sort the entire forum Woody!

----------


## Rushy

> Perhaps you could funnel, colonic irrigation style 152.9 quarts of it up HDPA arse and maybe she may see things in  a different light?


Only if I can suspend her from the archilles tendons on butchers hooks VC.

----------


## kotuku

suprised no one suggested a quiet wee sneak up the rabbits ribcage!

----------


## Steve123

> Perhaps you could funnel, colonic irrigation style 152.9 quarts of it up HDPA arse and maybe she may see things in  a different light?


The old goat hubbies probably allready done that to her

----------


## kotuku

this whole issue can be summed up in newtons third law of physics
"for every action ,there is opposite equal reaction!
MSM are that far up themselves its doubtful theyd recognise daylight let alone 999%of what is old fashioned commonsense!
 i had a WORD TO MY  SOURCE(TV3) IN THIS ISSUE -ITS AGREED THAT THIS WAS A MASSIVE CLUSTERFUCK FROM THE WORD GO

----------


## top gun

> Confirmed reports that HDPA is attempting to gain access to lower NI ranges and look at people's gun licenses.


   We need to remember that no firearm licence holder is required to present his/her licence to ANYONE other than a UNIFORMED police office and the licence holder has 7 days to present it. Unless:  you are purchasing a firearm or ammunition from a legitimate source when it is legally required that a licence be inspected by the seller.

 Worth remembering.

----------


## top gun

> Perhaps you could funnel, colonic irrigation style 152.9 quarts of it up HDPA arse and maybe she may see things in  a different light?


    ONLY if it was done on peak viewing time on nationwide TV, with at least 7 days notice of when it was being aired ( sorry!!!!  "aired" I had a visual of IT with it's arse in the air with a funnel sticking out!!!!!  nightmare material!!!)

----------


## outdoorlad

> We need to remember that no firearm licence holder is required to present his/her licence to ANYONE other than a UNIFORMED police office and the licence holder has 7 days to present it. Unless:  you are purchasing a firearm or ammunition from a legitimate source when it is legally required that a licence be inspected by the seller.
> 
>  Worth remembering.


If a member of the public wants to shoot at our range on public night they have to present there licence if asked, it's a condition of use.
Most of the R/O's are warranted.

----------


## outdoorlad

> Confirmed reports that HDPA is attempting to gain access to lower NI ranges and look at people's gun licenses.


Really? If that's the case you should drop Mr Tipple an email, he might be interested in that.

----------


## Tommy

> Really? If that's the case you should drop Mr Tipple an email, he might be interested in that.


COLFO are aware

----------


## GravelBen

Hmm... someone with a documented history of fraud and deception (including obtaining a firearm by fraud) is trying to obtain firearms licence numbers? Maybe the police should be informed too.

----------


## timattalon

> Hmm... someone with a documented history of fraud and deception (including obtaining a firearm by fraud) is trying to obtain firearms licence numbers? Maybe the police should be informed too.


Thats 


> dodgy as all f__K


 , I mean very suspicious and definitely something the police should look into...

----------


## top gun

I'll make a prediction right now.  Knowing who her husband is and all the politicing & weaselling that he'll be doing on her behalf down at Fort Fumble ( parliament ), plus the failure of police to prosecute other high profile persons and for politicians to find ways of NOT prosecuting people involved in terrorist type training camps in NZ;
 The NZ Police will not be prosecuting anyone involved in this fiasco!!!! ( I hope I'm wrong)

  However I have strong suspicions that all the four or five people involved directly and/or those aiding a abetting the commitment of this crime WILL be prosecuted privately & brought before the courts on SEVERAL charges with the sort of sentences that would be handed down to any of us who were silly enough to try to be this dopey.

----------


## Gibo

You guys still going on about this?  :Zomg:

----------


## top gun

Anyone who has been following this attack on our firearm laws ( not you Gibo obviously) AND by association, us law abiding firearm owners  should check out page A10 of the NZ Herald ( 9th Dec 2015 )

         THE PLOT THICKENS!!!!!!!

----------


## res

> Anyone who has been following this attack on our firearm laws ( not you Gibo obviously) AND by association, us law abiding firearm owners  should check out page A10 of the NZ Herald ( 9th Dec 2015 )
> 
>          THE PLOT THICKENS!!!!!!!


Is this the article your referring to?

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti...ectid=11557932

----------


## Gibo

> Anyone who has been following this attack on our firearm laws ( not you Gibo obviously) AND by association, us law abiding firearm owners  should check out page A10 of the NZ Herald ( 9th Dec 2015 )
> 
>          THE PLOT THICKENS!!!!!!!


What's there to follow? Dickhead journo's getting let off for breaking the law?

----------


## top gun

No Res that was from last Thursday 3rd Dec. The one I referred to was today Wednesday the 9th page A10.
 Check it out.  It is very interesting as the net gets cast wider & wider & more of the conspiring arseholes are being dragged into the mire!!!!   & bloody good to see too.

----------


## top gun

> What's there to follow? Dickhead journo's getting let off for breaking the law?


Gibo,  As I have predicted ( I may be wrong) that if  the cops are politically nudged NOT to prosecute these shite heads
you can be assured that a private prosecution is sitting in the wings waiting to go.  At least the cops are providing more & more names to add to the charge sheets!!!!

----------


## res

> No Res that was from last Thursday 3rd Dec. The one I referred to was today Wednesday the 9th page A10.
>  Check it out.  It is very interesting as the net gets cast wider & wider & more of the conspiring arseholes are being dragged into the mire!!!!   & bloody good to see too.


3rd? It's dated 8th on there website 

Not all of us can just pop out and buy a heralded-in fact it's a uncommon paper in a lot of NZ. Could you give us a photo of the article or a link to a online version?

----------


## stug

> 3rd? It's dated 8th on there website 
> 
> Not all of us can just pop out and buy a heralded-in fact it's a uncommon paper in a lot of NZ. Could you give us a photo of the article or a link to a online version?


 @res The Big Read: Twist to TV gun-buying tale - National - NZ Herald News

----------


## Barefoot

> Not all of us can just pop out and buy a heralded-in fact it's a uncommon paper in a lot of NZ.


It's  even uncommon in Auckland, it's just a gossip tabloid these days.

----------


## res

> @res The Big Read: Twist to TV gun-buying tale - National - NZ Herald News


Thanks,but that seems to be the article I linked that I'm told is not the one we are told to look at.

----------


## top gun

> 3rd? It's dated 8th on there website 
> 
> Not all of us can just pop out and buy a heralded-in fact it's a uncommon paper in a lot of NZ. Could you give us a photo of the article or a link to a online version?


 Hi Res,
            I agree that the herald is just another tabloid & is full of recycled crap but it is the best of a bad choice around here & sometimes they have something worth reading. It costs me $6 a week to have it delivered, so it's cheaper than the local "culturally correct" rag!!!
    The clip that you sent on the forum was definitely from the paper of thursday 3rd Dec page A15.  But the article that thickened the plot was yesterdays ( 9th Dec ) Page A10. It is well worth a read because it names all sorts of interesting names.
 I'll be surprised if the forces of eve
il have managed to suppress the herald's online version.

 Sorry I'm computer illiterate & can't even cut & paste!!!!

  If all else fails let me know & I'll mail you a copy of the cutting.

         Beers to all.  ( except TV3!!!)

----------


## Rushy

> I got a phone call yesterday from the cops .... just checking up on a mail order form I sent to a sports shop in the North Island in Nov 2013 , to cover the trade me purchase of a .22. They just wanted to know if  it was actually me that sent the ( completed and police signed ) form and did I get the rifle . A very pleasant conversation  . They must be checking up of stuff  .


Wow.  Good on them for being sure but I bet that was the result of the HDPA shenanigans and it seems to me that the rim lays another charge for the needless misdirection od Police resources.  I would have thought that they would have had enough to do at this time of year without that sort of distraction.

----------


## 10-Ring

Your wife's cell phone number was probably on the vetting application file from when you were last interviewed. Your cell number may have changed since then so they used your wife's number to contact you.

----------


## top gun

Hamsav,

              Remember Big Brother is ALWAYS watching & recording!!!!!
 I was a suspect in the Fonterra 1080/milk powder fiasco & Big Brother had me in their sights!!!!

   Who knows what they know about each of us?????

        Keep your powder dry!!!!

----------


## jakewire

Interesting,
 I did the mail order thing for a new rifle today for the first time since the changes, sure the form is different, email both ends required etc but certainly no hassle
Funnily enough I expected the police to quibble about the PO box address I provided on the form for the seller but not a word mentioned.
Guess they can check by the persons Firearms licence anyways.

What surprised me is I live in a town or 15 thousand and a district of 20 thousand + and they still sent the form to the Dunedin police for emailing to the supplier.

I know this because the Dunedin AO rang me this arvo, ostensibly to check my email address, she was very polite and it all went without a hitch.

----------


## JoshC

Recently done the same thing. Form gets emailed from station to AO, who then checks details and emails to seller. In my case last week, they wouldn't let me use my work address as a delivery even though everyone at my workplace holds a valid firearms license and someone's there all the time to sign for it--we all hunt together. And I was then told I couldn't have it sent to my home address cos the wife doesn't have a firearms license. So the AO informed me that I had to organise shipping depot to depot. That's an unnecessary pain in the arse if you ask me.

----------


## Maca49

Backward SI AO I suspect :Wink:

----------


## Friwi

I got one done the other day. Got it delivered to work no problem.
With that new system , I hope you guys realise it is the beginning of some form registration...

----------


## jakewire

yeah course it is
serial number required etc or else no go
personally it doesn't bother me but I can see it would upset some people.

Interesting that @JoshC as my wife doesn't hold a firearms licence and there was no mention of any bother sending it to my place
Guess they would be the same AO, unless yours was done in Invercargill

----------


## Grubby

I used one of the new forms just over a week ago. I was thinking " here we go, how long is this going to take?" I was pleasantly surprised.
I filled out the form at 6pm thurs..... got a call from the arms oficer at 7am the next morning and the completed form emailed to me a couple of minutes later..... easy as!
Ammo arrived monday mornin!
Also delivered to my work no problem.

----------


## Sideshow

.


> Recently done the same thing. Form gets emailed from station to AO, who then checks details and emails to seller. In my case last week, they wouldn't let me use my work address as a delivery even though everyone at my workplace holds a valid firearms license and someone's there all the time to sign for it--we all hunt together. And I was then told I couldn't have it sent to my home address cos the wife doesn't have a firearms license. So the AO informed me that I had to organise shipping depot to depot. That's an unnecessary pain in the arse if you ask me.


You should have asked what is the difference if your wife had a licence, to the guys at your work? That argument would not stand up in a court. 
         1. They have all been vetted all hold valid licenes 
         2. As such there not braking the law.
         3. ...? So no difference bettween the two/ apart form the sexs :Psmiley: 
Wanted to put give me my facken guns but thought better of it :Thumbsup:

----------


## Beavis

Better not let the courier touch it then. Possibly  no license. What was once a usable system is now a cluster fuck. Nobody at the station in my town wants to know about a mail order form unless the AO is in. I usually never have time to see him because work, and usually when I do make time, he's not there. 

When I finally got a form done for some ammo, after over a week of fucking around, I found it interesting that they wanted to know what kind of rifle I'm gonna use it in. Thought it was a bit of a pointless question.

----------


## stug

> Better not let the courier touch it then. Possibly  no license.


The Arms Act states that couriers/freight firms do not need a firearms licence to carry firearms/ammunition.

----------


## Sideshow

Just goit this through nice to see some of them are on or side!

Westminster Hall debate on "usage of lead shot in ammunition" 

On Tuesday Gerald Jones, the Labour MP for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, secured a one hour Westminster Hall debate on 'usage of lead shot in ammunition'. Even the title of this discussion was odd in that it seemed to exclude discussion of lead bullets, but given that Mr Jones had never previously shown any interest in shooting it may just have been a misunderstanding.

He read out his opening statement from a script which sounded remarkably similar to the public statements made by the RSPB and Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust. Indeed it was noticeable that there were more staff from those organisations in attendance than the three MPs (including Mr Jones) who were willing to argue for further restrictions on lead ammunition. As I have said before it is very sad that two organisations that do so much brilliant conservation work give such priority to a campaign which, is at least in part, clearly motivated by an antipathy to shooting as a whole.

A number of MPs, led by our own Chairman Simon Hart argued forcibly that there was no justification for a ban on lead ammunition. Simon declared an unusual interest in the debate by stating the fact that he was “probably the only Member who has been shot by a lead cartridge… It was about 35 years ago and I still carry 20 lead pellets in my left knee"' he added that "colleagues will judge whether that has affected my physical or mental state.” 

Charles Walker MP stated that “tungsten, bismuth and hevi-shot cost five to seven times as much as lead. A significant part of most people’s shooting budget.”

Jim Shannon MP brought his experience shooting and wildfowling in Northern Ireland to the debate arguing that attempts to ban lead ammunition are “unjust and unfair and highlight the way in which science can be used and manipulated to suit a political agenda”.

Rishi Sunak MP and Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP argued that evidence on the impact of lead ammunition in the UK has failed to pass rigorous academic scrutiny and the risks have been exaggerated. They also stated that a ban on lead would have serious implications for the gun trade, the rural economy and the natural environment

Alex Cunningham MP, a shadow Defra Minister, was forced to concede that there was no evidence in the UK of any premature death caused by lead ammunition which prompted Simon Hart to suggest that “unless he [Cunningham] can come up with that evidence, he is doing nothing more than mischief making”.

George Eustice MP responded for the Government and stated that since half of the Lead Ammunition Group members had resigned “we are therefore in a position in which we have no expert consensus about the impact of lead ammunition on wildlife or human health”, but did acknowledge that current compliance levels with existing legislation were disappointing.

This is not a matter of debate and is something that all speakers agreed on. Adherence with the current restrictions for shooting wildfowl and shooting over wetlands is non-negotiable. Using lead shot in contradiction of the regulations is not only environmentally damaging, but also risks the future use of lead ammunition for all shooting. None of us should think that it is acceptable either personally, or from those who we shoot with.

----------


## Jexla

> I got a phone call yesterday from the cops .... just checking up on a mail order form I sent to a sports shop in the North Island in Nov 2013 , to cover the trade me purchase of a .22. They just wanted to know if  it was actually me that sent the ( completed and police signed ) form and did I get the rifle . A very pleasant conversation  . They must be checking up of stuff  .


Doesn't it make you wonder why they picked that transaction?

----------


## Jexla

> Recently done the same thing. Form gets emailed from station to AO, who then checks details and emails to seller. In my case last week, they wouldn't let me use my work address as a delivery even though everyone at my workplace holds a valid firearms license and someone's there all the time to sign for it--we all hunt together. And I was then told I couldn't have it sent to my home address cos the wife doesn't have a firearms license. So the AO informed me that I had to organise shipping depot to depot. That's an unnecessary pain in the arse if you ask me.


You sure are getting the short end of the stick there mate, I'd suggest implying to your AO that they should talk to a few other AO's around the country and see if they're making those same rules up too.

----------


## Maca49

AOs make their own rules! Shit it's different all over the country  :O O:

----------


## top gun

If the use of the Police "Arms Office" stamp was an absolute must in every police district, then these forgeries would be picked up very quickly.  I thought that this stamp WAS standard procedure everywhere in NZ but from a lot of comments here it obviously isn't!!!!    Was this the loophole that the feds have supposedly plugged?????
 We all get denigrated as naughty firearm owners because the police can't run a piss up in a brewery  OR  are the topdogs at police HQ deliberately allowing a fairly fail safe system to fail????

  I would never have actioned a mail order form that didn't have the Arms Office stamp in the bottom right hand corner.  Now people wishing to do a mail order transaction for a firearm or ammo have to coordinate their available time at work etc to meet the possibility of someone actually being in an Arms Office when they want a mail order form actioned!!!!!    How many non-event visits to the copshop would that take?????   & who can just get in their vehicle & leave work or the farm or wherever & front off down to an arms office?????   After 2 or 3 failed visits the boss may well get a bit testy eh?????

 Who is being put thru the hoops and seriously inconvenienced because of the police failing to have a standardised procedure right throughout NZ?????

     I'll bet that the police "Arms Manual" lays out the procedure very clearly but some arms offices fail to follow their own directions & guess who gets the shitty end of the stick????     Good old law abiding forearm owners, AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## zimmer

HdPA and others must be getting great glee from some of the comments on this open forum. There will be a fair few "I told you so's" and sage nodding of heads in the media.

----------


## Rushy

> HdPA and others must be getting great glee from some of the comments on this open forum.


Are you crediting them with the ability to read and research?

----------


## top gun

> HdPA and others must be getting great glee from some of the comments on this open forum. There will be a fair few "I told you so's" and sage nodding of heads in the media.


Zimmer me old trout, I think those wankers at TV3 will be shitting themselves not being quite sure whether "dear hubby" will get the heat taken off them or not being too sure whether GC will proceed with a private prosecution of the whole pack of the conniving bastards!!!!!

  If I was them I'd be getting my toothbrush & jammies ready for quite a few months in the slammer!!!!!

   Let's hope the hua's read THAT bit,eh????

----------


## zimmer

> Zimmer me old trout, I think those wankers at TV3 will be shitting themselves not being quite sure whether "dear hubby" will get the heat taken off them or not being too sure whether GC will proceed with a private prosecution of the whole pack of the conniving bastards!!!!!
> 
>   If I was them I'd be getting my toothbrush & jammies ready for quite a few months in the slammer!!!!!
> 
>    Let's hope the hua's read THAT bit,eh????


We can only hope but in this case I am fearfully certain there will be nothing nasty happen to them, but I hope I am wrong...
Maybe we can all wish it as a Christmas present for us. Better than the undies and singlets I normally get.

----------


## Koshogi

> If the use of the Police "Arms Office" stamp was an absolute must in every police district, then these forgeries would be picked up very quickly.


Surely they could just forge the stamp if they were so inclined.




> I'll bet that the police "Arms Manual" lays out the procedure very clearly but some arms offices fail to follow their own directions & guess who gets the shitty end of the stick????     Good old law abiding forearm owners, AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!


Nope. It just says that the form should be "endorsed' by a member of the Police. Which can include just signing it.

There never has been any legal requirement for a Police seal or stamp on any mail order form.

_7.14 Mail Order Sales of Firearms and Ammunition. 
Section 43A, Arms Act 1983 creates an offence to sell firearms or ammunition by mail order except pursuant to a written order signed by the purchaser and endorsed by Police that the member of Police has inspected their licence, and that they are fit and proper to purchase that firearm or ammunition._

Police Arms Manual 2002

----------


## top gun

Zim,
         I'm personally hoping that the cops fudge prosecuting them for whatever reasons ( political interference like the Urewera terrorist training camps) or whatever.
 If GC take a private prosecution then you can be sure that their "payback" will result in the whole slimy team of them, from O'Connor to the TV3 bosses, will be named & shamed & either booked into Mt.Eden or fined many zillions of $'s along with huge "costs awarded"!!!!!!

  That's what I've been kneeling beside my bed & praying for each night!!!!     Hopefully everyone of you law abiding chaps & chapesses are doing the same.

        The power of group positive thought works, believe me. I've helped a couple of negative karma cases here in Rottenrua lately,  VERY satisfying to see arseholes finally get their beans.   & I'm not really a vindictive person!!!!

----------


## gundoc

I have sold two guns by mail order in the last week and neither form had a Police station stamp on it, and as Koshogi rightly pointed out, there is no requirement for one.  In both instances they were also sent by the purchaser rather than directly from the Police.  Everything is back to normal it would appear.

----------


## Jexla

> I have sold two guns by mail order in the last week and neither form had a Police station stamp on it, and as Koshogi rightly pointed out, there is no requirement for one.  In both instances they were also sent by the purchaser rather than directly from the Police.  Everything is back to normal it would appear.


Are you serious!?!

Edit: I seriously suggest you call your local cop shop or go see them and check those forms are legit. There's no way a cop would sign the form and let it go out those doors now...

----------


## Tommy

> I have sold two guns by mail order in the last week and neither form had a Police station stamp on it, and as Koshogi rightly pointed out, there is no requirement for one.  In both instances they were also sent by the purchaser rather than directly from the Police.  Everything is back to normal it would appear.


I did one on Saturday at Akl Central, and it was the new one. Police must be doing it differently from place to place (imagine my surprise)

----------


## Maca49

Ok now just been to the Mount Maunganui police station to get the form filled out to purchase Dreamers rifle, Oh no not allowed to obtain from there??? The AO based in the Tauranga Police Station is the ONLY ONE that can now sign these forms locally?? REALLY! Did they change the law from a Sworn Officer or Heather (pending prosecution), did I miss something? or is the AO making his own law? Me thinks a phone call to Wellington is coming up!!
This is a real piss off.

----------


## jim160

> Ok now just been to the Mount Maunganui police station to get the form filled out to purchase Dreamers rifle, Oh no not allowed to obtain from there??? The AO based in the Tauranga Police Station is the ONLY ONE that can now sign these forms locally?? REALLY! Did they change the law from a Sworn Officer or Heather (pending prosecution), did I miss something? or is the AO making his own law? Me thinks a phone call to Wellington is coming up!!
> This is a real piss off.


Im pretty sure its any sworn cop can sign the form.  The arms officer hasn't signed any of my forms.

----------


## Maca49

Thats what I thought Jim but up here the AO has his own set of rules, thats a problem with the system, too many hymn sheets

----------


## Koshogi

> Im pretty sure its any sworn cop can sign the form.  The arms officer hasn't signed any of my forms.


It's any Police Employee.

----------


## Koshogi

Any member of the Police failing or refusing to perform their lawful duties should be referred IPCA for nonfeasance.

----------


## Maca49

No its not! Not in the BOP, Yep I think I will have to complain!! and my nice nature makes it hard for me to do!! Arseholes

----------


## top gun

> No its not! Not in the BOP, Yep I think I will have to complain!! and my nice nature makes it hard for me to do!! Arseholes


Maca,

        Yes the AO's in this region ( Hamilton,Tauranga,Taupo,Rotorua etc have been making their own rules.  I heard of a situation recently where gun cabinets (A cat) from a specific supplier were being rejected because this particular region had decided they weren't compliant.  What these turkeys didn't know was that the cabinets had already been to police Nat HQ & inspected by a team of 4 officers and WERE approved.  A complaint to the ISPCA soon sorted that problem out and I suspect that the same procedure will solve your problem????

  You might like to mention that the lack of uniformity in the use of the ARMS OFFICE stamp on mail order forms would have solved the TV3 fraud situation. GC ( & most dealers ) would have smelt a rat as soon as no stamp was seen on the bottom of the form. But as you have seen from posts here every bloody police region/district seems to have its own set of rules????   So much for being a national uniform service!!!!!

 If you're ever in Rottenrua send me a personal post & we could have an interesting chat.

         Beers.

----------


## Maca49

I just find it frustrating, like when are the traffic police going to start making their own rules?? Nothing like a little power to enlarge ones head.

----------


## gundoc

> Are you serious!?!
> 
> Edit: I seriously suggest you call your local cop shop or go see them and check those forms are legit. There's no way a cop would sign the form and let it go out those doors now...



Yes, I checked and they were kosher.  One came with a police business card and I rang the station then his cell phone to check, the other was confirmed by the station.  One was Wellington, the other a small station.

It is important to note that although the Police 'policy' may have changed, the law has not.  Consequently any Police officer may check the applicants licence and sign the form.

----------


## Jexla

> Yes, I checked and they were kosher.  One came with a police business card and I rang the station then his cell phone to check, the other was confirmed by the station.  One was Wellington, the other a small station.
> 
> It is important to note that although the Police 'policy' may have changed, the law has not.  Consequently any Police officer may check the applicants licence and sign the form.


I'm WELL aware, but when I done my form they took it and signed it and kept it (not much I could do about that) and then it went to my AO who then forwarded it to the seller after the AO done their whatever.
I expected this to be the same all over the country after what has happened and am very surprised to see it is not.
Also aware of others who have had the same, so thought it was very out of character for your buyers Police stations to not do the same, which would naturally ring alarm bells.


Maca:
Our AO's used to try the same thing before this even happened, you need to talk to them and explain to them that they need to inform the people who are on duty at the watch house need to know that they are required to fill these forms out and cannot say that only the AO will.
We no longer have this issue.

----------


## veitnamcam

Ask "are you a sworn officer?"  yes "you are legally required to sign this form then " good idea or not?

----------


## zimmer

Extract from the minutes of the Firearms Community Advisory Forum meeting held 3 Dec.


INTERNET  FIREARMS  SALES A  review  of  online  sales  was  started  approximately  1  month  prior  to  the  media  attention  created  by  Heather du  Plessis-Allan  and  her  purchase  with  a  mail  order  form  of  a  firearm  without  a  firearms  licence.    An  audit  had also  been  undertaken  of  300  mail  order  forms  (section  43A  forms)  received  by  3  selected  retailers.  Out  of  the 300  forms only one  had  an  issue  which  was  subsequently found  to  be  genuine  and  was  caused  by poor writing of  details.  Police  has  created  a  simple  and  effective  change  by  making  it  a  requirement  that  the  signed  section 43A  form  filled  out  by the  purchaser and  countersigned  by Police  must  be  sent  from  Police  direct  to  the  seller. It was commented by two Forum members that this was a good step forward and good follow-up by Police.

----------


## top gun

> Extract from the minutes of the Firearms Community Advisory Forum meeting held 3 Dec.
> 
> 
> INTERNET  FIREARMS  SALES A  review  of  online  sales  was  started  approximately  1  month  prior  to  the  media  attention  created  by  Heather du  Plessis-Allan  and  her  purchase  with  a  mail  order  form  of  a  firearm  without  a  firearms  licence.    An  audit  had also  been  undertaken  of  300  mail  order  forms  (section  43A  forms)  received  by  3  selected  retailers.  Out  of  the 300  forms only one  had  an  issue  which  was  subsequently found  to  be  genuine  and  was  caused  by poor writing of  details.  Police  has  created  a  simple  and  effective  change  by  making  it  a  requirement  that  the  signed  section 43A  form  filled  out  by the  purchaser and  countersigned  by Police  must  be  sent  from  Police  direct  to  the  seller. It was commented by two Forum members that this was a good step forward and good follow-up by Police.


 Yes Zim and I'll predict that there will be as many different interpretations of this amended system as there are police districts!!!!
  Remember,  there was NO loophole in the system that was in use except for the lack of any method of guaranteeing that the police section at the bottom of the mail order form had been completed correctly & authentically( & NOT forged!!!!!!).  The uniform use of the Arms Office rubber stamp ( which would be difficult to fraudulently copy)) in ALL police districts would have raised a red flag if it wasn't on the mail order form received by the firearm seller.

  I wasn't aware until I got onto this forum that the use of this stamp was NOT standard operating procedure right throughout the NZ Police.   Once again law abiding firearm owners get inconvenienced & have the finger pointed at them because of the inefficiencies of others outside of their personal control!!!!

 People who want a mail order form completed at an Arms Office still need to arrange their work schedule/personal comittments around the possibility of no one being at an Arms Office when they arrive to complete the formalities. It isn't possible to make an appointment with most arms offices and they usually close shop at 4 or 4-30pm weekdays, and if you lived a fair distance away it could involve a lot of k's and a lot of time.

 Several years ago I was given a number of mail order forms which the arms office people very helpfully completed,dated & stamped for me to take away to use at my convenience.  That's what I call cooperation but it ain't going to happen under this new system!!!!

  ONCE MORE UNTO THE BREACH WE GO!!!!!!!!

----------


## R93

Had a POL67X that was to run out yesterday.
No one has been manning the police station in town to sign it for the last week.

Firearm arrived but it needed to be viewed and serial number confirmed. Have a mate that is local police sign it for me.
He took the form away and I said I have copies all my previous forms for restricted guns in my safe.
He said that we will no longer be able to keep the forms as record because people have been altering the ones they have to buy other guns. Not sure how, but it isn't surprising.

Apparently we are our own worst enemy at times.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

----------


## jackson21

I can see that if you were motivated in such a way you could still easily get around new changes so not much has changed and we still operate under a deterrent based legal system to stop this.
Just more inconvenient to legally licensed firearms owners.
Nothing else has changed and neither would anyone wanting to obtain an illegal firearm obtain one this way, apart from struggling journos.

----------


## gsp follower

> Zim,
>          I'm personally hoping that the cops fudge prosecuting them for whatever reasons ( political interference like the Urewera terrorist training camps) or whatever.
> *If GC take a private prosecution then you can be sure that their "payback" will result in the whole slimy team of them, from O'Connor to the TV3 bosses, will be named & shamed & either booked into Mt.Eden or fined many zillions of $'s along with huge "costs awarded"!!!!!!*
> 
>   That's what I've been kneeling beside my bed & praying for each night!!!!     Hopefully everyone of you law abiding chaps & chapesses are doing the same.
> 
>         The power of group positive thought works, believe me. I've helped a couple of negative karma cases here in Rottenrua lately,  VERY satisfying to see arseholes finally get their beans.   & I'm not really a vindictive person!!!!


your dreamin mate cos you fail to realise who,s actually running tv3 now.
 who had the leverage to get cambell gone  who,s on the board now and who let them off the owed money??

----------


## 300CALMAN

Comparing murder rates and gun ownership across countries - Crime Prevention Research CenterCrime Prevention Research Center

Slightly of topic but good rainy night reading.

----------


## Friwi

I wonder how the Charlie and Paris terrorists attacks would be considered for the year 2015 statistics? Ah, yes, I think the numbers will be diluted by the huge influx of migrants France!!!! Thanks to them( multiple degrees of interpretation here!)

----------


## 300CALMAN

> I wonder how the Charlie and Paris terrorists attacks would be considered for the year 2015 statistics? Ah, yes, I think the numbers will be diluted by the huge influx of migrants France!!!! Thanks to them( multiple degrees of interpretation here!)


Yes interesting stuff I was surprised how the UK "dilutes" it's data. Quote:  _"Their homicide numbers typically “exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defense or otherwise”_  I wounder if they included the London Bombings where the bombers were dead? Still Murder if you ask me. On the other hand if you want to equate legal gun ownership with Murder you need to drill down into the type and source of the weapon used to kill. If you look at the US statistics half of their Murders are still non-firearm related... 

Yeah it's not surprising:

Quote: _"300 mail order forms (section 43A forms) received by 3 selected retailers. Out of the 300 forms only one had an issue which was subsequently found to be genuine and was caused by poor writing of details."_ 

So how many mail order firearms that we know of were criminally obtained? Apparently only one purchased by DG/HDA and co

I think TV3 should be more worried about a rise in criminality and loss of value for life/disrespect for the law and not legitimate firearms ownership.

----------


## Maca49

Talked to a guy at H&F about sending firearms between stores as a service to there customers. They now need a copy of the 43a form before they can send, are worried about their liabilities and have been advised this is probably the best way to do it. Some of their stores didn't want to offer the service at all. I think they charge $50 for the service. Prob I had was I purchased a rifle from a guy where we both knew we a legit FAL holders and didn't need a police form, therefore their service couldn't be used. I think they need to look again a their policy and build their business on offering a useful service to their customers. Just my thoughts

----------


## Beavis

If I recall it cost $60. You need to send a copy of the form. They open the package to make sure you are only sending what you claim and you haven't snuck in another gun or a restricted weapon. Last gun I bought I took my own advise and drove to get it. Took me the best part of a Saturday there and back but at least I had it and there was minimal fucking around.

----------


## top gun

> Talked to a guy at H&F about sending firearms between stores as a service to there customers. They now need a copy of the 43a form before they can send, are worried about their liabilities and have been advised this is probably the best way to do it. Some of their stores didn't want to offer the service at all. I think they charge $50 for the service. Prob I had was I purchased a rifle from a guy where we both knew we a legit FAL holders and didn't need a police form, therefore their service couldn't be used. I think they need to look again a their policy and build their business on offering a useful service to their customers. Just my thoughts


  Maca,
                  I don't think that any transfer of A cat firearms between dealers or from importers/agents requires any police documentation unless the sneaky sods have slipped some more inconvenient red tape under the door while we weren't looking????

  I have often helped customers by couriering firearms to other stores ( including GC in Chr.Ch) for someone to uplift. The info goes into both shop's firearm registers so that the movement is traceable.  $50!!!!!!  Jeez that's a bit steep!!!!

----------


## top gun

> your dreamin mate cos you fail to realise who,s actually running tv3 now.
>  who had the leverage to get cambell gone  who,s on the board now and who let them off the owed money??


  GSP,
              Please enlighten me as to who these untouchable turkey's are????
P.S.  I'd even be keen to pace a small side bet on what happens ( eventually) to these nice people & who starts the prosecution ball rolling!!!!   Any takers????

----------


## gsp follower

[QUOTE]


> GUEST BLOG: Rex Widerstrom – Thirteen things you (probably) didn’t know about Mark Weldon (CEO of Mediaworks)
> 
> By The Daily Blog  /   April 10, 2015  /   34 Comments
> 
> Rating: 4.3/5 (39 votes cast)
> TDB recommends Voyager - Unlimited internet @home as fast as you can get
> Is the move to axe Campbell Live motivated by ratings (it’s not advertising revenue, as advertisers strongly support the show) or by something else altogether?
> 
> Share      Print   Email
> ...





> the sacking of one well to do News Producer is equitable to the tactic by Talley’s to starve 5000 children in their 2012 industrial fight.
> Charming.
> The Producer in question is of course is the brilliant John Hale, whom I have an enormous amount of respect for and whom I wish no ill harm to. I respect many of the talented journalists on TV3. Mike McRoberts, Hillary Barry, Paula Penfold, Lisa Owen and Torben Akle do incredible work, but then again they also have Brooke Sabin that awful Tova O’Brien and the homicidal chipmunk on a meth bender, Government script writer, Patrick Gower.
> There are journalists who do great work on TV3, and I mean them no ill will to them or their craft, but the pro National Party agenda of TV3 management means that work is under cut by the knowledge that any journalism that hurts Key too much will get pulled.
> Can anyone honestly watch The Nation any longer and believe it’s not guest edited by Steven Joyce?
> So should the boycott against TV3 end?
> Maybe it won’t matter. Whispers are currently circulating that the American vulture fund that has bought MediaWorks – Oaktree, are quietly manoeuvring to cut off TV3 from the company and flog it off to the highest bidder. The money making part of MediaWorks is their radio advertising (the loss of Campbell to Radio NZ will be a particularly harsh blow), their TV branch is hurting and the meltdown in ratings is hurrying along the desire to sell it off.
> If TV3 management can’t reverse the ratings situation by the end of the year, it will be all over rover.
> - See more at: BREAKING – John Campbell joins RNZ – should the boycott of TV3 end and what is next for TV3? « The Daily Blog


hopefuly this gives you some idea :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

----------


## Jexla

So why are we feeling the need to pay $50 to ship a firearm through HF when we can pay less at fastway and they will shut the fuck up and just do their job you pay them to do, delivered right to their fucking doorstep.

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## veitnamcam

> So why are we feeling the need to pay $50 to ship a firearm through HF when we can pay less at fastway and they will shut the fuck up and just do their job you pay them to do, delivered right to their fucking doorstep.


Last time I used fastway it was 75 dollars.

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## madjon_

> Last time I used fastway it was 75 dollars.


Same.

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## Koshogi

For those who haven't seen it or are dealing with a Police Officer who are not aware of the new "policy", there is a NZ Police Guide for Applicants Mail Order Sales.

The new form is available online here.

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## Beavis

So nowhere in there does it say you are required to supply the serial number. Sweet. My biggest concern is, with regards to couriers, they often don't care and leave it at the doorstep regardless of whether a signature is required, and making it abundantly obvious that it is a firearm just puts "steal me" all over it.

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## Kiwi Greg

> For those who haven't seen it or are dealing with a Police Officer who are not aware of the new "policy", there is a NZ Police Guide for Applicants Mail Order Sales.
> 
> The new form is available online here.


I find it interesting that as a holder of a Dealers Licence I haven't been informed of any new policies or updates to procedures ....

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## Maca49

I


> For those who haven't seen it or are dealing with a Police Officer who are not aware of the new "policy", there is a NZ Police Guide for Applicants Mail Order Sales.
> 
> The new form is available online here.


So the police don't learn! They are as thick as pig shit! This form should only be available, numerically numbered, so they can be audited, from a police station! Not on line that's how all this bullshit started in the first place! Gun city having its own downloadable form on line so criminals like Heather could sign on behalf of a non existent police officer and purchase a firearm illegally, are there no brains left in a cop shop! FFS

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## Maca49

> So why are we feeling the need to pay $50 to ship a firearm through HF when we can pay less at fastway and they will shut the fuck up and just do their job you pay them to do, delivered right to their fucking doorstep.


Agree but if H&F showed some balls and you could register on their site to make you legit, they could have a nice little business and support the poor bastards, er loyal customers, with a nice easy service. They need to take control and the lead for us poor mortals with burning $$$s in our pockets

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## Chop3r

> If I recall it cost $60. You need to send a copy of the form. They open the package to make sure you are only sending what you claim and you haven't snuck in another gun or a restricted weapon. Last gun I bought I took my own advise and drove to get it. Took me the best part of a Saturday there and back but at least I had it and there was minimal fucking around.


My last one done by H and F was $20 between firms and that was 6 months ago

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## veitnamcam

> I
> So the police don't learn! They are as thick as pig shit! This form should only be available, numerically numbered, so they can be audited, from a police station! Not on line that's how all this bullshit started in the first place! Gun city having its own downloadable form on line so criminals like Heather could sign on behalf of a non existent police officer and purchase a firearm illegally, are there no brains left in a cop shop! FFS


Police are employed to collect tax not think.

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## Maca49

> Police are employed to collect tax not think.


You got that right VC, they have installed auto speed signs on the Kaimais, they control speed according to weather, well today it was raining and the speed limit on the Matamata side was reduced from 100 ks to 60 ks! I kid you not, what a cock up! Oh and the revenue gatherer was right there writing out ticket for those that had the skill to drive at 80 + ks. A bit of mist at the top and it was 80 ks till halfway down the Tauranga side. It beggars belief! But if this successful, probably based on income! Is to be rolled out over the country side. Oh well I'll save rubber on my tyres :Sick:

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## veitnamcam

FFS! :XD:

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## Maca49

If they dumb us down enough we will go back to walking and leave the roads to buses and trucks, cause they're just so bloody dangerous!

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## Beavis

> I
> So the police don't learn! They are as thick as pig shit! This form should only be available, numerically numbered, so they can be audited, from a police station! Not on line that's how all this bullshit started in the first place! Gun city having its own downloadable form on line so criminals like Heather could sign on behalf of a non existent police officer and purchase a firearm illegally, are there no brains left in a cop shop! FFS


Well said. Wtf am I supposed to do if I receive a forged online form from a faux police email address? Am I expected to try and track down the person that signed the form and ask if it's legit?

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## Maca49

Yes cause you will be guilty! Plead HDA made me do it. This is so simple to fix

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## Rushy

> Yes cause you will be guilty! Plead HDA made me do it. This is so simple to fix


It is for me Maca.  I just walk into a shop.  Ha ha ha ha

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## Koshogi

> I
> So the police don't learn! They are as thick as pig shit! This form should only be available, numerically numbered, so they can be audited, from a police station! Not on line that's how all this bullshit started in the first place! Gun city having its own downloadable form on line so criminals like Heather could sign on behalf of a non existent police officer and purchase a firearm illegally, are there no brains left in a cop shop! FFS


It's surprising that you are upset at the NZ Police over this, but not the many other unlawful "procedures" that they have enacted.

_*NB: Only a Police Form from a Police email address, or the original, certified by the Police District Arms Officer and mailed direct to the seller, will satisfy the Arms Act requirement for the seller to take reasonable steps to ascertain whether you are a holder of a firearms licence, or in the case of an airgun, are of or over the age of 18 years._

First thing, the NZ Police DO NOT have the authority to require you to use ANY specific form. The law only requires a "written order", and does not empower the police to set the format of the form, unlike other sections of the Act.

_Arms Act 1983- 43A Mail order sale of firearm or ammunition

(1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1,000 who sells by mail order a firearm or any ammunition for a firearm or restricted weapon otherwise than pursuant to a written order
    (a) signed by the purchaser; and
    (b) bearing an endorsement signed by a member of the Police and stating that the member of the Police
           (i) has inspected the purchasers firearms licence; and
          (ii) is satisfied that the purchaser is a fit and proper person to purchase that firearm or ammunition._

_Arms Act 1983 - 30A Application for endorsement in respect of military style semi-automatic firearm

(1) Any person, being of or over the age of 18 years and being an applicant for a firearms licence or the holder of a firearms licence, may apply at an Arms Office to a member of the Police for an endorsement permitting that person to have possession of a military style semi-automatic firearm.

(2) Every application under subsection (1) shall be made on a form provided by a member of the Police.
_


If the NZ Police wish to have a specific form to be used, then follow the process laid out by the Arms Act and have the Governor General make an Order in Council.
_Arms Act 1983 - 74 Regulations
(1) The Governor-General may, from time to time, by Order in Council, make regulations for all or any of the following purposes:
    (g) prescribing forms of applications, permits, licences, endorsements, registers, notices, and other documents required for the purposes of this Act, or authorising the Commissioner to prescribe or approve such forms, and requiring the use of such forms:_

I would be more upset about the ultra vires "Police Requirements" that they have imposed upon citizens without adhering to the legislative process, despite repeatedly being told by the courts that they do not have this authority. 

Such as:

_Forward the form to the District Arms Officer for completion and transmission direct to the retailer_

- The Arms Act states that "a member of the Police" may sign it and does not require or allow for any further appointment.

_Each and every firearm / airgun / ammunition transaction will require Police verification. Verifications will be valid for seven (7) consecutive days from the date upon which they are approved / completed by Police._

- Where does this limitation exist in the Arms Act or Regulation?

_The address for delivery of the items must be a physical address. In the case of firearms or ammunition, the address must be either the purchasers recorded and verified firearms security location address or the recorded and verified place of residence. i.e. the address values recorded by Police against the firearms licence number, which have been inspected by police. A licensed firearm dealers address is also acceptable._

- Where does this requirement exist in the Arms Act or Regulation?

_The purchaser must be present at the address to receive the delivery, or the goods are to be held at the premises of the mail /courier company which is making the delivery. Sellers are to give this instruction to the mail / courier company which they engage for the delivery._

- Where does this requirement exist in the Arms Act or Regulation?

_Purchase restricted airguns
People who do not hold a firearms licence who wish to purchase a restricted airgun from a licensed firearms dealer are required by Police to establish their bona fide membership of a NZ Police recognised airgun sport club. Proof of age must be established by a current NZ drivers licence or a current NZ passport. Club bona fides is established by providing to Police the original of a letter of good standing from the club which is dated within 14 days of the day of application to Police._

- Where does this requirement exist in the Arms Act or Regulation?


This is supposed to be a nation of laws and any new laws must follow the legislative process that we have agreed to be governed by. Not by the arbitrary decision of an unelected official.

*The legislative process*

*The law is the framework within which citizens consent to be governed, having elected their law-makers.

Parliament legislates by examining bills (proposed laws), making amendments to them, and agreeing their final form. The bills then become Acts of Parliament.*

----------


## Maca49

> It's surprising that you are upset at the NZ Police over this, but not the many other unlawful "procedures" that they have enacted.
> 
> _*NB: Only a “Police Form” from a Police email address, or the original, certified by the Police District Arms Officer and mailed direct to the seller, will satisfy the Arms Act requirement for the seller to take reasonable steps to ascertain whether you are a holder of a firearms licence, or in the case of an airgun, are of or over the age of 18 years._
> 
> First thing, the NZ Police DO NOT have the authority to require you to use ANY specific form. The law only requires a "written order", and does not empower the police to set the format of the form, unlike other sections of the Act.
> 
> _Arms Act 1983- 43A Mail order sale of firearm or ammunition
> 
> (1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1,000 who sells by mail order a firearm or any ammunition for a firearm or restricted weapon otherwise than pursuant to a written order—
> ...


No good talking to me about this, our AO does his own thing and works on the basis of "don't cross me!" Maybe you should be talking to the Minister of Police?

----------


## gundoc

> No good talking to me about this, our AO does his own thing and works on the basis of "don't cross me!" Maybe you should be talking to the Minister of Police?


Maca, it is up to you to take your AO to task if he tries to make his own rules!  Politely tell him that his requirements or interpretations are not lawful next time he tries something on.  If he uses that as an excuse to take some action, or refuse you something you are legally entitled to, then he is a gone-burger.  You immediately inform your lawyer with all the details and then go straight to the top at Police National HQ.  If that does not produce instant results then you have two legal recourses; an appeal under Section 62 of the Arms Act, or a Judicial Review of the Police actions.  Although there will be some expense involved, publicise your actions on this forum and most caring members will stump up a few dollars to help out.  I have been personally involved in several of these actions over the years and enjoyed a very high success rate.  I can state that I now do not have any problems with the Police (from PNHQ down to station level) when I make any requests under the Arms Act.

Remeber the following when making requests under the Arms Act;

1  The Police are Public Servants charged with the administration of the Arms Act.
2  You are a law-abiding licensed firearms owner making a legitimate request as required by law.
3  You cannot be refused any permit, etc. unless the Police have justifiable grounds to refuse you.
4  Those justifiable grounds are not at the whim of any one Police Officer.
5  Every contrary decision you get can be lawfully challenged.
6  ALWAYS get any contrary decision in writing and signed by a Commissioned Officer.
7  You are entitled to such written decisions, and on a timely basis.
8  If they refuse to give a written answer then their original decision has no legal validity.
9  NEVER raise your voice or use abusive or threatening language, merely ask which part of the Arms Act is the basis for their decision.
10 Police policy is NOT law.
11 Familiarise your self with the 1983 Arms Act, the 1992 Arms Amendment Act, and the Arms Regulations, all available free online.
12 Most AO's are civilian menbers of the Police and have very limited powers.

----------


## Maca49

I've thought about this for a while. I know of some things this guy has done dating back to the 80s but he, for some reason wears Teflon.
I'll think some more :Grin:

----------


## top gun

Thanks very much for that advice Gundoc.  Filed for future reference.

----------


## Sidney

Good summaries Gundoc and Koshogi... :Thumbsup:

----------


## timattalon

> Last time I used fastway it was 75 dollars.


It cost me $25 and that includes me buying packaging material and paper to wrap it. Once wrapped it usually fits under an Aqua label (courier version of a stamp. Up to 5kg nationwide.) which is $160 ish for a book of 10 from memory. $75 is too steep and an absolute rip off.

----------


## 300CALMAN

yep cost me $22 last time

----------


## veitnamcam

> yep cost me $22 last time


Did you tell them it was a firearm?

----------


## veitnamcam

How is the cops prosecution coming along anybody heard?

----------


## Tommy

> Did you tell them it was a firearm?


Last one I did was $25 and yes it was declared as a bangstick

----------


## 300CALMAN

> Did you tell them it was a firearm?


yes, even had the bolt in a separate box which they normally send separately. This time they just taped it to the main box :XD:

----------


## veitnamcam

Interesting, I didn't mention it and it was 20-30 bucks but they asked if it was a firearm to which I replied yes then it was automatically 75 dollars standard charge for firearms, it would appear it is different by depot.

----------


## Tommy

> Interesting, I didn't mention it and it was 20-30 bucks but they asked if it was a firearm to which I replied yes then it was automatically 75 dollars standard charge for firearms, it would appear it is different by depot.


You got reamed good and proper then. Bastards

----------


## Maca49

> How is the cops prosecution coming along anybody heard?


Vindicates as all if they don't prosecute her! We can be the police as well

----------


## Jexla

> Interesting, I didn't mention it and it was 20-30 bucks but they asked if it was a firearm to which I replied yes then it was automatically 75 dollars standard charge for firearms, it would appear it is different by depot.


They're franchises so each place has their own pricing, I got quoted $50 for a .22 I wanted to send and was like wtf, make it $20, then she goes, "oh we'd lose money on it if we done that" walked my ass out went and saw my old boss and shipped it via fastway (2 doors down from the depot) for $12.

----------


## Maca49

You look far to attractive to have carried on like that! Beauty is only skin deep! :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## P38

> You look far to attractive to have carried on like that! Beauty is only skin deep!


Hahahaha.

Believe me @Maca49 he doesn't look anything like his avatar ................. but then who does   :Have A Nice Day: 

Cheers
Pete

----------


## Reindeer

Cost $40 for me to send two packages, one for gun and one for bolt, from Wanganui to Nelson week out from xmas.
Rifle was paged in a plano locked case and bolt in courier bag. Sent via fastways they didnt give a rats that it was a firearm and there were another 3 in their depot at the time.

----------


## veitnamcam

So its just Nelson shafting us as usual then.

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

----------


## Rushy

> So its just Nelson shafting us as usual then.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


Looks like it VC

----------


## Gibo

> Hahahaha.
> 
> Believe me @Maca49 he doesn't look anything like his avatar ................. but then who does 
> 
> Cheers
> Pete


 @Tommy does  :Grin:

----------


## madjon_

> Cost $40 for me to send two packages, one for gun and one for bolt, from Wanganui to Nelson week out from xmas.
> Rifle was paged in a plano locked case and bolt in courier bag. Sent via fastways they didnt give a rats that it was a firearm and there were another 3 in their depot at the time.


Bloody Nelson franchise,cost me $75 to send it to you.( must be cause it's up hill from here) :Sad:

----------


## Tommy

> @Tommy does

----------


## Jexla

> You look far to attractive to have carried on like that! Beauty is only skin deep!


Why would you assume anyone looks like their display picture?
Most people's pictures are of things they like, just like mine.

----------


## GravelBen

I dunno, I reckon mine is a fairly accurate representation of me.

----------


## Gibo

> Why would you assume anyone looks like their display picture?
> Most people's pictures are of things they like, just like mine.


Why would you assume he was serious?

----------


## Tommy

> Why would you assume he was serious?


Well, I do live in a sewer.

----------


## Gibo

> Well, I do live in a sewer.


Pooh!

----------


## Tommy

> Pooh!


The dialling code for the sewer is 09

----------


## gsp follower

> The dialling code for the sewer is 09


the most expensive sewer in the country

----------


## Gibo

> the most expensive sewer in the country


Dunno, Christchurch must be getting up there in cost now  :Psmiley:

----------


## gsp follower

she,s bad if your renting even tho the insurance co,s stopped paying the scumlords but that still leaves the rip off the imigrent worker faction charging auckland rents for shitholes  :O O: 
 but apparently house prices have levelled off :Grin: 
god i love some  my fellow countrymen every greedy hand in your pocket,wallet throttling  bastard of one them :O O:  :Psychotic:

----------


## Maca49

> Why would you assume anyone looks like their display picture?
> Most people's pictures are of things they like, just like mine.


Sorry I've met @Gibo and he's a ringa for his :Zomg:

----------


## BRADS

As is Rushy for his :Have A Nice Day: 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## Maca49

He's actually older in real life @BRADS

----------


## Rushy

> He's actually older in real life @BRADS


Looked in the mirror lately pensioner?

----------


## top gun

TSK!!!!,  TSK!!!!!  Now now boys no need for nastiness eh???

----------


## Gibo

> TSK!!!!,  TSK!!!!!  Now now boys no need for nastiness eh???


This is just their pillow talk mate, they wont even notice we are listening  :Grin:

----------


## Maca49

[QUOTE=Rushy;430266]Looked in the mirror lately pensio

Get back on the carrots you old bugger, help your eye sight!! :ORLY:

----------


## Woody

Santa gave me a Swarovski spotting scope. There was note on it that is might come in handy when old coots tried to call shots :Grin:

----------


## Rushy

> Santa gave me a Swarovski spotting scope. There was note on it that is might come in handy when old coots tried to call shots


You should lend it to Maca then.

----------


## hotbarrels

So what's the latest on this topic - are the police prosecuting?

----------


## top gun

I received fairly trustworthy info yesterday from a source very close to the action  in a certain Sth Island town that " the police ARE going to prosecute". How many of the arseholes & who exactly not divulged yet.  The other question of course is WHEN are they going to have the hua's in court so we can all stick our knives in & give it a little/large twist!!!!!!??????????????

----------


## 10-Ring

Let's not hold our breath waiting then.

----------


## screamO

Police decide not to pursue charges over Heather du Plessis-Allan gun story | Stuff.co.nz

----------


## Tommy

> Police decide not to pursue charges over Heather du Plessis-Allan gun story | Stuff.co.nz


There's a surprise.

----------


## res

Not impressed at all!

All power to mr tipples prosecution then

----------


## PERRISCICABA

> Police decide not to pursue charges over Heather du Plessis-Allan gun story | Stuff.co.nz


The thing was done yo the "interest of the public", please what public other than "media havoc"???

I (personally) don't have any interest in how to "bend" the law, actually, I think I could figure out it myself without any alarm reminding that law abiding citizens and gun owners don't need this kind of behaviour to purchase a gun. 
Just my 0.02$c

----------


## Moutere

There was no bending involved, she broke the law.
Poor decision on their behalf.

----------


## Jexla

Don't bother going to the cops to sign your form, just fill that part in yourself, they won't charge you anyway.

/yawn

----------


## zimmer

Yeh she was OK because she had no sinister purpose whereas us licensed (ie legit) firearm owners/purchasers must all therefore harbour sinister purposes obviously. I am not stressed by the decision as I had already decided (and posted my opinion) way back at the start of this thread that nothing would come of her actions. I did my huffing and puffing way back then. Huffing and puffing again is pointless as it only makes their victory more galling.

----------


## mikee

> There's a surprise.


No................................... Really

----------


## top gun

> I received fairly trustworthy info yesterday from a source very close to the action  in a certain Sth Island town that " the police ARE going to prosecute". How many of the arseholes & who exactly not divulged yet.  The other question of course is WHEN are they going to have the hua's in court so we can all stick our knives in & give it a little/large twist!!!!!!??????????????


Jeez Wayne!!!   How wrong can someone be???    I should have relied on my instincts which said that certain people would put the"ARM" on the police NOT to proceed.  Bugger me & I thought that our police force was NOT subjected to political interference???  Silly me. :Pissed Off:

----------


## gadgetman

> No................................... Really


No ....... sarcasm.

Pretty obvious they were going to wait till the outrage quietened down before announcing they'd let it slide. Think there would have been a bit too much embarrassment for themselves had they pursued it.

----------


## bully

Typical!

----------


## Sasquatch

I wonder if the police will let the new 2016 Arms Amendment bill slide too?? Uhh I don't think so.

Ya know, I might take advantage of these "journalistic privileges" myself. I've got my FAL but no E endorsement so I'll go buy a stack of 30 round mags and the compatible weapon they go with just to _expose_ the "loopholes" all for the _public interest_ of course.

I wonder how well that'll will go down. I will report back once I've handed in my illegal MSSA to the police so we can crack down on the outrageous gun laws in this country.

----------


## kotuku

A slap in the face for all NZFAL holders!

i have a close contact high up in TV#mediaworks empire ,to whom i made my own and a few others sentiments very plain-the response "gets ratings though ,thats our gold".ratings so fucking beloved of MSM-the social concern utterances pure TV3 PR dept bullshit,
Bet me bottom dollar lil ol Heifer DPA& Duncy Garner are crackin the champers with associated newsroom cretins having put one up the man!
 warning my arse -that'll just go in the boardroom trophy cabinet.

Soooo-where can we obtain a copy of the grounds for this decision ,so when some proper license holder "offends"the blue brigade ,he can produce it as part of his defence
the DUPLESSIS ALLEN precedent shall we call it.

 lastly but more sinister is the thought that sooner or later some fucktard out there may well attempt to emulate these two and sadly suceed,again  claiming but they did it and got off so thought Id try it!

Humans -the most intelligent of all the species-cases like this do give me grave doubts!

----------


## Rushy

I cannot begin to say how fucking ridiculous that decision is.  Frankly I despair for what has become of this country in the hands of overly politically corrected dickheads and do gooders.  We may as well change the flag now because the current one stood for a far better country and a far better sense of justice than this country reflects today.

----------


## Rushy

> I wonder how well that'll will go down.


Like a cup of cold vomit I reckon.

----------


## Tahr

So, what would a prosecution  have actually achieved for gun owners? Someone please explain?

----------


## Rushy

> So, what would a prosecution  have actually achieved for gun owners? Someone please explain?


Happy to.  For me a simple sense of satisfaction that a smart arsed bitch that thought she was immune from the law because she is a journalist, got her come uppance. No one should be above the law.

----------


## Tommy

> So, what would a prosecution  have actually achieved for gun owners? Someone please explain?


You mean the decision to not prosecute someone for breaking the law, thus making it harder with more hoops to jump through, for people who DO obey the law? Amongst other things

----------


## top gun

> I wonder if the police will let the new 2016 Arms Amendment bill slide too?? Uhh I don't think so.
> 
> Ya know, I might take advantage of these "journalistic privileges" myself. I've got my FAL but no E endorsement so I'll go buy a stack of 30 round mags and the compatible weapon they go with just to _expose_ the "loopholes" all for the _public interest_ of course.
> 
> I wonder how well that'll will go down. I will report back once I've handed in my illegal MSSA to the police so we can crack down on the outrageous gun laws in this country.


And:  IF you was a budding All Black candidate or potential world class sportsman you probably would be as safe as houses from being issued a new toothbrush & jammies for your stay in the pokie,eh?????? :Pacman:

----------


## top gun

> A slap in the face for all NZFAL holders!
> 
> i have a close contact high up in TV#mediaworks empire ,to whom i made my own and a few others sentiments very plain-the response "gets ratings though ,thats our gold".ratings so fucking beloved of MSM-the social concern utterances pure TV3 PR dept bullshit,
> Bet me bottom dollar lil ol Heifer DPA& Duncy Garner are crackin the champers with associated newsroom cretins having put one up the man!
>  warning my arse -that'll just go in the boardroom trophy cabinet.
> 
> Soooo-where can we obtain a copy of the grounds for this decision ,so when some proper license holder "offends"the blue brigade ,he can produce it as part of his defence
> the DUPLESSIS ALLEN precedent shall we call it.
> 
> ...



   Kotuku me old trout,  I DO like the way you sling your words together!!!!    Couldn't have put it better myself.

 I have just sent Gun City the names of ALL the people ( six of the hua's) who should be on his lawyer brother's list of candidates for a private prosecution :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

----------


## Tommy

Gang-related shooting in Highbury | Stuff.co.nz

This knuckledragging scribbleface fuckwit obviously got his shooter via a boogie mail order form right? Or did he get it via that other highly used loophole - burglary? The gibbering media make me sick

----------


## kotuku

aye tommy youve got that in a nutshell.

----------


## kotuku

> Kotuku me old trout,  I DO like the way you sling your words together!!!!    Couldn't have put it better myself.
> 
>  I have just sent Gun City the names of ALL the people ( six of the hua's) who should be on his lawyer brother's list of candidates for a private prosecution


spot on me old china -get the whole internet and CHCH earthquake debris thrown at the pricks.

----------


## Moutere

There never was a loop hole, she broke the law to effect the purchase.

----------


## Maca49

I'm with Rushy there is something fundamentally wrong with the legal system in NZ. There definitely an eleat class of citizen that have become immune to to force of the law. Drug use, violence, impersonation, etc all dropped or sentences lessened. It's not a good trend long term.

----------


## Steve123

> I'm with Rushy there is something fundamentally wrong with the legal system in NZ. There definitely an eleat class of citizen that have become immune to to force of the law. Drug use, violence, impersonation, etc all dropped or sentences lessened. It's not a good trend long term.


Wasn't Mediaworks bailed out with @50 mil of our money? The same Mediaworks that used to be(???) owned by minister of almost everything Steven Joyce?

----------


## Tommy

> Wasn't Mediaworks bailed out with @50 mil of our money? The same Mediaworks that used to be(???) owned by minister of almost everything Steven Joyce?


He built it from scratch, and sold it in 2001

(ie 13 years before the bailout)

----------


## Steve123

> He built it from scratch, and sold it in 2001
> 
> (ie 15 years before the bailout)


You mean I made my tinfoil hat for nothing?

----------


## Tommy

> You mean I made my tinfoil hat for nothing?


Being paranoid doesn't necessarily mean that someone isn't out to get you  :Wink:

----------


## kotuku

gentlemen -your common garden variety mammalian omnivore of the lesser species will generally react in a simple manner if you offend em-"youre dead .."and "whammo" so you are ,and generally your miserable remains are dined upon!
Humans on the other hand are the only species who ,make a rule ,to cover a rule ,to cover a rule ,to cover a rule to cover a rule relating to some smartarse who has pissed you or society off with their dickhead actions!ah say the erudite noteworthy academics and nobel prize winning thinkers ,but this is what places us so far ahead of our mammalian relatives,this is human evolution blah blah blah.obviously them bastards dont read this forum!!!

----------


## Tommy

You can only possess a full auto on a C endorsement, and you can never fire it. However, if there's no "sinister intent", well gee whizz you're off scot-free now if you do, the police now don't prosecute that sort of thing. Now THERE'S a loophole eh?

----------


## Hayden C

> So, what would a prosecution  have actually achieved for gun owners? Someone please explain?


Nothing. But there's a saying: 

_No man is above the law and no man is below it._ 

The law should be applied equally and fairly. Prosecute the journalist or it sets a bad precedence.

----------


## Tommy

> Nothing. But there's a saying: 
> 
> _No man is above the law and no man is below it._ 
> 
> The law should be applied equally and fairly. Prosecute the journalist or it sets a bad precedence.


Pasted from another site: (which I won't name due to the NO POLITICS rule that some seem to miss)



> How many times do we see the Police proceed with prosecutions with the public statement that they must let the Courts decide and pass judgement as it is not their place to do so? The Police are normally very unwilling to make a judgment like this from what I have seen and experienced. It makes my especially grumpy as a Firearms License holder knowing what the responsibilities and rules are regarding ownership, storage and handling. The Police have made a mistake on this one.


and




> so if i have this correct, the police have discretion over wether to prosecute. this stunt by HDPA was done for ratings, not the noble sentiment such as "civic duty to expose a loophole" despite what media works say, and she gets a pass. greg carvelle, the auckland gunshop owner who made the headlines years ago when he defended himself and others in his gun shop against a machete wielding intruder, was prosecuted though. someone wake me up, puuuuulease. i feel sorry for the frontline police who go into every situation unarmed, not knowing if someone in the situation is armed, but they do themselves no favours with a decision like this.

----------


## Rushy

> Pasted from another site: (which I won't name due to the NO POLITICS rule that some 
> 
> 
> and


Whoa that shit is way to civilised and well thought out.

----------


## Maca49

> You can only possess a full auto on a C endorsement, and you can never fire it. However, if there's no "sinister intent", well gee whizz you're off scot-free now if you do, the police now don't prosecute that sort of thing. Now THERE'S a loophole eh?


Well I believe there is a loophole and you want to fire your auto, become a dealer as you have to know it is in good working order to sell it and therefore you must know it works, consumer guarantees act, you don't want no comebacks!

----------


## Sideshow

Tommy. What you posted from that other site. 
I was about to say the same..thanks you saved me having to type that out.
Really though so now the NZ Police are Judgers as well :Wtfsmilie:  :Yuush:

----------


## northdude

Who's keen to donate tipple some money to get this cleaned up I'd consider it

----------


## kotuku

the bizzare bloody thing is when Richard Grant took them on over the mssa freestanding pistolgrip issue in the palmy north court ,( i believe gundoc was the expert witness/)Hon Justice Jillian Mallons judgement specifically ripped the police(akacrown)a new arsehole over acting as judge jury and executioner. she spoke at length and very specifically lays out the roles of govt ,judges,and police.for the bloody life of me i simply cannot see why a certain element of Police HQ staff seemingly ignore such things.

----------


## Tommy

> the bizzare bloody thing is when Richard Grant took them on over the mssa freestanding pistolgrip issue in the palmy north court ,( i believe gundoc was the expert witness/)Hon Justice Jillian Mallons judgement specifically ripped the police(akacrown)a new arsehole over acting as judge jury and executioner. she spoke at length and very specifically lays out the roles of govt ,judges,and police.for the bloody life of me i simply cannot see why a certain element of Police HQ staff seemingly ignore such things.


Shit mate sometimes you make startling amounts of sense. One day we're going to have to have a beer and not try to punch each other  :Cool:

----------


## timattalon

> Being paranoid doesn't necessarily mean that someone isn't out to get you


Just because you are being paranoid, does not make you wrong......

----------


## Maca49

You could sell ticket to that fight Tommy

----------


## jackson21

Unfortunately no surprises here....Soper went crying into his handkerchief to Key, Mediaworks TV 3 also pleading they won't give the Nats too much shit in the next election if let Heather off their silly escapade. Police instructed to lay off.
Along with TV 1 being state owned should be nice smooth election media wise for govt
Welcome to democracy in action

----------


## gundoc

> the bizzare bloody thing is when Richard Grant took them on over the mssa freestanding pistolgrip issue in the palmy north court ,( i believe gundoc was the expert witness/)Hon Justice Jillian Mallons judgement specifically ripped the police(akacrown)a new arsehole over acting as judge jury and executioner. she spoke at length and very specifically lays out the roles of govt ,judges,and police.for the bloody life of me i simply cannot see why a certain element of Police HQ staff seemingly ignore such things.


Richard Lincoln, not Grant.  Yes, I appeared at that case and threw in my two cents worth, but Richard deserves all the credit for a superbly prepared and presented case.  Even the Crown Solicitor came and congratulated him for it after the hearing finished.

Did anyone also notice that there is to be no prosecution of one of their own shooting dead an unarmed man last year?  A bit like the fiasco that left an innocent van driver dead in Auckland.  I have no problem with armed idiots being tipped over when they present a clear and present danger, but at least see something that looks like a weapon before firing!

----------


## kotuku

thank you gundoc .For some peculiar reason I always get his(RL) name wrong. ive actually got a paper copy of her judgement in my files at home.A very bloody interesting read .

----------


## Savage1

> Richard Lincoln, not Grant.  Yes, I appeared at that case and threw in my two cents worth, but Richard deserves all the credit for a superbly prepared and presented case.  Even the Crown Solicitor came and congratulated him for it after the hearing finished.
> 
> Did anyone also notice that there is to be no prosecution of one of their own shooting dead an unarmed man last year?  A bit like the fiasco that left an innocent van driver dead in Auckland.  I have no problem with armed idiots being tipped over when they present a clear and present danger, but at least see something that looks like a weapon before firing!


You forgot to mention the rest of the story regarding the unarmed man, such as what he said to the officers and what his physical actions were. Pretty easy way to influence people with your possibly bias opinion. 

As for the rest of it, Im very disappointed and know a lot of others that feel the same. Police have always got, and have always had, discretion over charging someone or not, which is a good thing.

----------


## PERRISCICABA

OK, just another tough from me.
Questions:
1- Are we law abiding citizens really united?
2- Are the majority of us law abiding citizens against these people lobbing against lawful firearms possession?
3- Are we keen to make a difference and put ourselves together against this discrimination regards "people above the law"

I acknowledge the cost of a "civil" action agains the "machine" but would we be interested in a "fair" and a possible final decision in who is who to make rules and decisions about what is right or wrong? I am in this forum for just a little while and i meet and dealt with few great people in here and i meet and know a lot of great passionate people who own and love firearms and are very responsible for it. So i think why we don't ask the "above the law" people to go and take the "dodgy" guns from the hands of those who don't possess a F.A.L. or a "registered" legally purchased F.A.?

I am sorry if i am been a little bit over the top but where i came from is very difficult to prove you are responsible for a firearm and or process one, however own an illegal F.A. is easily achieved, but where i came from sometimes the police may shoot the person with a firearm first and them ask what is happening.

Cheers.

Mac

----------


## Tommy

> Police have always got, and have always had, discretion over charging someone or not, which is a good thing.


That sort of discretion cost Greg Carvell around a million bucks I heard. I wonder where the public good was there?




> As for the rest of it, Im very disappointed and know a lot of others that feel the same.


We know it's bullshit castle doing it, not you guys. It's very unfortunate, I feel for you guys, the shit you have to deal with because of decisions made by the brass (that they know will happen, know that you and not them will have to deal with it, but do it anyway)

----------


## Kscott

The problem with all the examples given is that they are simple examples believed to be black and white. 

Whereas in reality, cases are complex with various circumstances, some mitigating. Unfortunately that doesn't suit people's pre-concieved ideas.

That's life.

----------


## top gun

OK Team,

                    Here's the guts hot off the press.
 I have been talking to the people at the receiving end of all the TV3 shit and have it on good authority that a Private Prosecution of HER (at least) IS on the way courtesy of the lawyer chap in Auckland (Nic ?? ).  I have tried to persuade the owners of GC to add at least another 5 names to the list who were involved either directly ( like Mark Weldon ex-CEO of Mediaworks,who gave the go ahead) and a few others as well who aided & abetted.

 Will the guy who supplied his licence details keep his licence?????    Watch out for some curly "questions in parliament" from Richard Prosser & co too.

----------


## jackson21

I would like to see the firearms licence owners who were clearly involved in this stunt exposed whether actually goes anywhere legally or not to their peers in this process. If they had not of helped out giving correct details to subvent system this would not have passed 1st base.
Guarantee they will be following this post 100% if not popping the odd comment in.
We have some great laws in this country that are based on honesty. These are constantly being eroded by a few dickheads that end up with more and more red-tape and arse covering laws.

----------


## Cyclops

Get over yourselves people. 

Police have decided not to prosecute, a civil action may or may not happen. Whoopee - *NOT*

The stunt exposed a weakness in the system, and I for one am pleased that the weakness has been stopped. 
FWIW I have purchased since and have had to take the form to a local Firearms Officer who  then contacted the seller. Not a big problem.

Get a life folks, go use your firearms for the purposes which you bought them and give your keyboards a rest.

----------


## Dangerous Dan

The biggest disappointment and would have actually given merit to HDPA was if she had actually been able to demonstrate/investigate that the system was/has been abused by someone with ill intent.

She has created a solution for a problem that never existed?

That's the world we live in now? People come up solutions and then go and find/create problems to validate there efforts ...

----------


## Moutere

> The biggest disappointment and would have actually given merit to HDPA was if she had actually been able to demonstrate/investigate that the system was/has been abused by someone with ill intent.
> 
> She has created a solution for a problem that never existed?
> 
> That's the world we live in now? People come up solutions and then go and find/create problems to validate there efforts ...


Great post !

----------


## 10-Ring

> ...
> Get a life folks, go use your firearms for the purposes which you bought them and give your keyboards a rest.


So you don't believe people have a right to express their opinions, excepting yourself, of course?

----------


## kotuku

id suggest to you with all due respect that your opinion is in the minority and give its laced with sarcasm not overly valued cylops /

----------


## Tahr

> id suggest to you with all due respect that your opinion is in the minority and give its laced with sarcasm not overly valued cylops /


In the minority on here maybe, but what about out there where everyone else is?

----------


## Sasquatch

> I would like to see the firearms licence owners who were clearly involved in this stunt exposed whether actually goes anywhere legally or not to their peers in this process. If they had not of helped out giving correct details to subvent system this would not have passed 1st base.
> .


This part in particular to this whole _"inside job"_ this is the part that really irks me the most. Where is our true, lawful & righteous justice system gone? And why hasn't there been no revocation annouced by top official police??

I know the justice system has been wonky for awhile but this is turning in to some _next level_ s#%t!

Corruption or? 




> We have some great laws in this country that are based on honesty. These are constantly being eroded by a few dickheads that end up with more and more red-tape and arse covering laws.

----------


## Maca49

Not corruption more like manipulation of the system to suit certain people.

----------


## Jexla

> You can only possess a full auto on a C endorsement, and you can never fire it. However, if there's no "sinister intent", well gee whizz you're off scot-free now if you do, the police now don't prosecute that sort of thing. Now THERE'S a loophole eh?


You've just given me ideas...........

----------


## Maca49

> You've just given me ideas...........


You need ideas? Just bang it is seclusion! :O O:

----------


## Tommy

> You've just given me ideas...........


There's this dude Ted on youtube (kiwi guy), took his C cat Sten out on his boat into international waters for a few mag dumps and put the video on youtube. Got into major shit with his AO, had to say 53 million hail marys to keep his license and endorsements hahaha

Wait, advertising "loopholes" is a bad idea, right?

----------


## Jexla

> There's this dude Ted on youtube (kiwi guy), took his C cat Sten out on his boat into international waters for a few mag dumps and put the video on youtube. Got into major shit with his AO, had to say 53 million hail marys to keep his license and endorsements hahaha
> 
> Wait, advertising "loopholes" is a bad idea, right?


That is a fucking amazing story hahaha

----------


## Ryan

> There's this dude Ted on youtube (kiwi guy), took his C cat Sten out on his boat into international waters for a few mag dumps and put the video on youtube. Got into major shit with his AO, had to say 53 million hail marys to keep his license and endorsements hahaha
> 
> Wait, advertising "loopholes" is a bad idea, right?


Not his only _faux pas_. Also videod himself humping around in the bush with a pistol stuffed inside his waistband.

----------


## Tommy

> Not his only _faux pas_. Also videod himself humping around in the bush with a pistol stuffed inside his waistband.


Missed that one. He did some really dumb shit. Not short of coin though.

Also advertised where he lived, and that he had a ute load or two of pistols, all sorts of select fire longs, the lot.

----------


## res

He has a rather nice collection, but publicising some of his actions is hardly smart even though I very much doubt he is any sort of risk

----------


## Maca49

Is that because the actions are illegal? I've attended a few good shoots in my younger days! That's when the police and army use to turn up armed but in support! Oh it's a change world, but nobody got harmed back then  :Cool:

----------


## Kscott

> Not his only _faux pas_. Also videod himself humping around in the bush with a pistol stuffed inside his waistband.


Yup. That thread got quite contentious  :Grin:  Plus he got v shitty with CSI when he wanted to shoot zombie targets on the range.....

https://www.youtube.com/user/kiwitedferny/videos

----------


## steven

> Get over yourselves people. 
> 
> Police have decided not to prosecute, a civil action may or may not happen. Whoopee - *NOT*
> 
> The stunt exposed a weakness in the system, and I for one am pleased that the weakness has been stopped. 
> FWIW I have purchased since and have had to take the form to a local Firearms Officer who  then contacted the seller. Not a big problem.
> 
> Get a life folks, go use your firearms for the purposes which you bought them and give your keyboards a rest.


Agree.  What most in here I think fail to appreciate is many people  are afraid of guns and they vote.  So this is turning/turned into a PR disaster for us gun owners which could have been avoided and indeed used positively for us.  Really simple, "oops, a hole was found we have fixed this really quickly sorry about that. In fact we'll review the system to make sure there are no others similar holes"  the voting public would have been left with the impression that gun owners and shops take safety and security seriously.

Instead Guncity might prosecute, I dont think they will, if they do they'll get their ass handed to them in a court by a Jury and make gun owners look worse in the eyes of the clueless voter.

----------


## steven

> So you don't believe people have a right to express their opinions, excepting yourself, of course?


He's giving his opinion here is my one, gun ownership is a minority.  So whatever your opinion is just consider the 90%? of voters in our democracy's opinion who dont own a gun and of them probably a significant % who dont want you to own a gun may think come election time.    Appearing to be a bunch of uncontrollable nut jobs is one sure way to see us get draconian gun laws like OZ IMHO how ever unfair that is.

----------


## Roddy

Wait.. What.. I don't mean to hijack the thread and forgive me for my lack of naivety and at the risk of asking dumb assed questions.  Are you saying that you cannot fire your legally owned (C endorsment?) full-auto firearms, even on a range? ever ever? Also; can you not use your legally owned pistol to hunt in NZ?

----------


## Moutere

> Wait.. What.. I don't mean to hijack the thread and forgive me for my lack of naivety and at the risk of asking dumb assed questions.  Are you saying that you cannot fire your legally owned (C endorsment?) full-auto firearms, even on a range? ever ever? Also; can you not use your legally owned pistol to hunt in NZ?


Nope

----------


## mikee

> Nope


Not ever or even longer !!

----------


## Steve123

> Not ever or even longer !!


Are the police carbines capable of full auto?

----------


## Kscott

No, Police Bushmasters are semi auto only. Only NZA has full auto.




> Wait.. What.. I don't mean to hijack the thread and forgive me for my lack of naivety and at the risk of asking dumb assed questions.  Are you saying that you cannot fire your legally owned (C endorsment?) full-auto firearms, even on a range? ever ever? Also; can you not use your legally owned pistol to hunt in NZ?


You can't shoot it with live ammunition, but can shoot with blanks if demonstrating it to someone to sell to prove it works, and no, you cannot shoot your pistol outside an approved range.

It's all here.
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/p.../DLM72622.html

----------


## top gun

> Get over yourselves people. 
> 
> Police have decided not to prosecute, a civil action may or may not happen. Whoopee - *NOT*
> 
> The stunt exposed a weakness in the system, and I for one am pleased that the weakness has been stopped. 
> FWIW I have purchased since and have had to take the form to a local Firearms Officer who  then contacted the seller. Not a big problem.
> 
> Get a life folks, go use your firearms for the purposes which you bought them and give your keyboards a rest.



  I have been following this whole drama from day one.  No one has explained what the loophole/weakness in the previous mail order system was????

I f you know, please elucidate. :Thumbsup:

----------


## top gun

> Agree.  What most in here I think fail to appreciate is many people  are afraid of guns and they vote.  So this is turning/turned into a PR disaster for us gun owners which could have been avoided and indeed used positively for us.  Really simple, "oops, a hole was found we have fixed this really quickly sorry about that. In fact we'll review the system to make sure there are no others similar holes"  the voting public would have been left with the impression that gun owners and shops take safety and security seriously.
> 
> Instead Guncity might prosecute, I dont think they will, if they do they'll get their ass handed to them in a court by a Jury and make gun owners look worse in the eyes of the clueless voter.



   You can rest assured that GC WILL be prosecuting( no "might" about it)HER at least.  I have suggested several other names to GC. Names of people who were up to their eyeballs in this whole sordid affair.  Watch for it to happen!!!!

----------


## Steve123

> I have been following this whole drama from day one.  No one has explained what the loophole/weakness in the previous mail order system was????
> 
> I f you know, please elucidate.


The loop hole was that someone could use someone else's firearms licence number,and impersonate a police constable to make a fraudulent document to obtain a firearm through online/mail order sales.
Meanwhile crims continue to steal or get their scumbag uncaught ( yet) mates to supply them with weapons.

Moral of the story is to get a well connected journalist/political party PR sugar daddy twice your age and break the law to self promote yourself.
Wonder if the #@%^ will show TVland how to make meth for her next story?

----------


## Haggie

> you cannot shoot your pistol outside an approved range.


If your a keen bean you can build your own range at home if you have land and get it certified.

----------


## Kscott

Yes, a certified / approved range. Different word, same meaning. What you can't do is whip out your pistol on farmland, tuck it into your belt and go pig hunting.

----------


## top gun

> The loop hole was that someone could use someone else's firearms licence number,and impersonate a police constable to make a fraudulent document to obtain a firearm through online/mail order sales.
> Meanwhile crims continue to steal or get their scumbag uncaught ( yet) mates to supply them with weapons.
> 
> Moral of the story is to get a well connected journalist/political party PR sugar daddy twice your age and break the law to self promote yourself.
> Wonder if the #@%^ will show TVland how to make meth for her next story?



  Steve,
              You're forgetting that the first thing GC in Auckland did was phone the AO & checked the cosherness of the licence holder's details. All OK. And, the police checked over 2000 previously received mail order forms & found NO evidence of forgeries or fraudulence.ALL spot on. i.e. NO loophole!!

  The only hiccup that I have become aware of is the fact that not all arms offices in NZ actually authenticated the Police Officer's details on the bottom of the form with the Official " Arms Office" rubber stamp.   There is NO way for any firearm dealer or firearm seller to know whether or not that info is genuine????
 You'd have to be a bit bloody stupid to risk 7 years in the slammer to even think of forging the police info,eh????

   Good old Heather & team had no problems tho'   AND got away with it ( SO FAR!!!! )

----------


## Steve123

> Steve,
>               You're forgetting that the first thing GC in Auckland did was phone the AO & checked the cosherness of the licence holder's details. All OK. And, the police checked over 2000 previously received mail order forms & found NO evidence of forgeries or fraudulence.ALL spot on. i.e. NO loophole!!
> 
>   The only hiccup that I have become aware of is the fact that not all arms offices in NZ actually authenticated the Police Officer's details on the bottom of the form with the Official " Arms Office" rubber stamp.   There is NO way for any firearm dealer or firearm seller to know whether or not that info is genuine????
>  You'd have to be a bit bloody stupid to risk 7 years in the slammer to even think of forging the police info,eh????
> 
>    Good old Heather & team had no problems tho'   AND got away with it ( SO FAR!!!! )


Exactly. The only loop hole she found was fraud. Impersonating  police and using someone else's  licence number. 
No loophole just fraud.
incidentally sugar daddy is now doing PR for Dear Leader in the Herald.

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

----------


## stumpy

the guy who took his sten into international waters ...... would that be exporting/smuggling without a permit ?

----------


## Haggie

You can just whip it out and do what you want it just wont be legal  :ORLY:

----------


## systolic

> the guy who took his sten into international waters ...... would that be exporting/smuggling without a permit ?


Yep.

----------


## kotuku

> You can just whip it out and do what you want it just wont be legal


I just whipped it out and enjoyed the sensation of a nice long leak.ok mr lawman im sorry got caught short OK!

----------


## jackson21

> Yep.


Not so sure about that? Exporting would be taking into another jurisdiction. Outside of our 12 mile is only our economic zone to 200nm. This is why NZ had no legal standing over the Korean officers on the JV fishing vessels working here from bumming their Indo crew and ku fuing them when they felt like it. For criminal acts they were Korean jurisdiction as Korean registered vessels.
Think he should have been Ok with the sten but recent years there have been all sorts of international laws for firearms. NZ is always first at UN with ballpoint ready to sign some shit.

----------


## Beaker

My Google / YouTube search skills have departed, can someone put up a link to this sten / Ted guy?

----------


## gsp follower

what a fuckin surprise a slap on the arse and awy scot free 
guess impersonating a police officer and falsifying details aint an offence??
unless your some poor drunk hoon who gets popped on police ten 7 or on some money spinning police trap.
give me strength the cops wonder why they dont have the respect they used to  :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## 308

> My Google / YouTube search skills have departed, can someone put up a link to this sten / Ted guy?


Link published further back in thread to this guy's Tube channel

----------


## 10-Ring

> He's giving his opinion here is my one, gun ownership is a minority.  So whatever your opinion is just consider the 90%? of voters in our democracy's opinion who dont own a gun and of them probably a significant % who dont want you to own a gun may think come election time.    Appearing to be a bunch of uncontrollable nut jobs is one sure way to see us get draconian gun laws like OZ IMHO how ever unfair that is.


We don't know what percentage of the population don't want us to own a gun and to guess or suppose is pure speculation. Certainly, in the rural sector, it's been my experience that most folk are not anti gun.

----------


## Beaker

> Link published further back in thread to this guy's Tube channel



Missed that... Cheers  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## jackson21

> Missed that... Cheers


Couldn't find the sten gun video? Maybe he's taken it down.
Interesting other videos and interesting knowledgeable  guy though. Would make a good spokesman for our cause.
Must be hard having all those WW 2 goodies and not allowed to have a wee play...

----------


## Kscott

> We don't know what percentage of the population don't want us to own a gun and to guess or suppose is pure speculation. Certainly, in the rural sector, it's been my experience that most folk are not anti gun.


Don't worry, almost everything in this thread is pure speculation  :Thumbsup:

----------


## gsp follower

the strangest  thing is if a drunk driver has an accident or any driver  deliberatly kills someone .
presumembly cos people understand through familarity that the vehicle of the death is not to blame.
 its not the car thats demonised its the persons and i know yes they were designed to kill but if maybe more people were at least familiar with the uses and good side of gunownership then even that might change.
so take every opportunity to enlighten show but not brow beat into people what fun and safe enjoyment can be had.
the funniest part of the whole weeks news was that they,re putting guns into the hands of cops who have less trigger time than the sons or daughters of your average hunter.
aint we been saying that for years duh and these are the very people trying to lay down and enforce the gunlaws to us ????.
the worst part of that is they,re armed with the very weapons we are considered, without jumping thru umpteen hoops, incompetent and unsafe to have.
talk about the hieght of hypocrisy and stupidity.
i cant make up my mind whether its sad tragic or criminal that ive put more rounds thru my bolt action 22 in the last 2 weeks than the average cops with thier glocks and ar15 varients will use in a year.If i addded in the shotgun i could probably be hired as a instructor hope they supply armoured footware.

----------


## gundoc

> the guy who took his sten into international waters ...... would that be exporting/smuggling without a permit ?


Absolutely correct.  The border for import or export is the shoreline of NZ.  The harbours and territorial waters of NZ are outside the parameters of the act, therefore export and import only occur when the item crosses the land boundary.  Taking your C category item out to sea to shoot it is not an offence, but "exporting" it (crossing the land boundary) is (Section 38 of the Arms Act).  Bringing it back ashore also contravenes sections 18 and 19 of the act (Permit required for import, and Siezure of illegally imported firearms).  They would be technical offences, but certainly guaranteed to have your licence revoked and the siezure of the firearms in question.  PNHQ in Wellington would love the chance to nail someone doing that!  There are much safer legal solutions to finding out how your expensive collector's item works!

----------


## gsp follower

aint this ironic the cops cant solve burglerys including the theft of 136 guns fom one collector alone and when these guns finally appear in the hands they were stolen for everybody jumps up and down and blames every gunowner?

just a tip for you crusher get your officers you were so worried about getting shot to find the guns when they,re stolen??
step 2 give them enough training so that they can handle whats expected of them firearms wise before the aos turns up or you have call the ats.
why do i have this horrible feeling that the cop with the hand shooting injuryof the four shot  was self inflicted????




> *Waikato University professor Alexander Gillespie said there needs to be discussion about what firepower is lawful and where guns are sourced.*
> 
> "Governments tend to wait until an atrocity occurs or a massacre and then they legislate afterwards.
> 
> "It is very rare they're pre-emptive or do something in a precautionary manner, even thought, in my opinion, that it is foreseeable that unless we get in control of this problem something bad will happen"
> 
> Gillespie said a starting point would be tracking down the 100,000 guns that aren't with their original purchaser - having been passed on to a friend or family member.
> 
> 
> ...


apart from his bullshit figures bullshit cos the cops have no idea of the numbers so how could he?
theres some sence in his arguement :Grin:

----------


## Krameranzac

> aint this ironic the cops cant solve burglerys including the theft of 136 guns fom one collector alone and when these guns finally appear in the hands they were stolen for everybody jumps up and down and blames every gunowner?
> 
> just a tip for you crusher get your officers you were so worried about getting shot to find the guns when they,re stolen??
> step 2 give them enough training so that they can handle whats expected of them firearms wise before the aos turns up or you have call the ats.
> why do i have this horrible feeling that the cop with the hand shooting injuryof the four shot  was self inflicted????
> 
> 
> 
> apart from his bullshit figures bullshit cos the cops have no idea of the numbers so how could he?
> theres some sence in his arguement


What this person fails to realise is that there is an amnesty 24/7 for firearms in this country. They can be handed to Police or a licensed dealer at any time with no questions asked. And this is someone called a professor? Seems his research skills leave a bit to be desired.

----------


## Friwi

Well, what piss me off if that our taxes are paying those scumbags more than 100000$ a year to have their shitty ass at a uni, promote their crap around and write that type of bullshit.

----------


## Jexla

I actually had an email conversation with this fella today if anyone is interested in seeing it, I think I may have swayed his opinion a bit.

Let me know your email and I can fwd it to you if you're interested.

Guys I seriously suggest instead of getting mad at these people, CONTACT them and explain to them why they're wrong, they generally (surprisingly) listen.

----------


## Dead is better

I reckon the D's involved would love to have wiped the smile off her face. Would have been a bitter pill to be ordered to drop this. She came close though, the public interest was leaning more towards seeing her get her arse booted for breaking the law. Now there's a precedent for other criminals who wish to get away with this.

----------


## Krameranzac

> I actually had an email conversation with this fella today if anyone is interested in seeing it, I think I may have swayed his opinion a bit.
> 
> Let me know your email and I can fwd it to you if you're interested.
> 
> Guys I seriously suggest instead of getting mad at these people, CONTACT them and explain to them why they're wrong, they generally (surprisingly) listen.


Or contact the people they work for and ask why these people are allowed to go on television and radio, leave out a lot of relevant facts to support their anti firearm drivel and embarrass the institution they work for.

----------


## mikee

Apparently its not just TV3 journo's that get "special" treatment, I can only but imagine how specially one of us might be treated in the same circumstance (caught illegally hunting0

Police handling of hunting case slated | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News

----------


## Jexla

> Or contact the people they work for and ask why these people are allowed to go on television and radio, leave out a lot of relevant facts to support their anti firearm drivel and embarrass the institution they work for.


I think you will find that will do no good whatsoever.

----------


## Krameranzac

> I think you will find that will do no good whatsoever.


Can it hurt however? No boss likes to hear one of their staff is making their organisation look stupid. Just as every reporter who spouts inaccuracies should be contacted and their faults pointed out.

----------


## screamO

> Apparently its not just TV3 journo's that get "special" treatment, I can only but imagine how specially one of us might be treated in the same circumstance (caught illegally hunting0
> 
> Police handling of hunting case slated | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News


Well its no suprise unfortunately,  it happens around here to!!
But this coment doesn't work well for me, this is every body walking into the bush at night or early morning 

‘‘If someone is found in an area where wild animals are present, and the person has something they could hunt with, they are presumed to be hunting unless the opposite can be proved.''

----------


## Jexla

> Can it hurt however? No boss likes to hear one of their staff is making their organisation look stupid. Just as every reporter who spouts inaccuracies should be contacted and their faults pointed out.


I done that yesterday, he never emailed back. I told him if I was as bad at my job as he is his, I'd be fired.

----------


## 10-Ring

> I done that yesterday, he never emailed back. I told him if I was as bad at my job as he is his, I'd be fired.


Who did you e-mail Jexla?

----------


## gsp follower

just remember the public good excuse the next time your impersonating a cop or falsifying a document :Grin: 
cant help with having a tame cop union president on hand tho.
greggy boy was up to his atse cheeks in this story.

----------


## Jexla

> Who did you e-mail Jexla?


Nicholas Jones, a journalist.

----------


## Kscott

> just remember the public good excuse the next time your impersonating a cop or falsifying a document
> cant help with having a tame cop union president on hand tho.
> greggy boy was up to his atse cheeks in this story.


You think the Police, after investigating and seeking separate legal opinion, decided to not press charges because Greg O'Conner said so ???  :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## gsp follower

> You think the Police, after investigating and seeking separate legal opinion, decided to not press charges because* Greg O'Conner said so* ???


no but i bet the because of the look to the rest of the cops of thier union prezy bieng a nob.[ie saving face] plus if it did go further we,d have to know how it came about that he knew so much and whose cop number and or licence number was used??
why were those numbers so realistic because they had a knowledgable source ????
theres no doubt they coluded on this story




> *You think the Police, after investigating and seeking separate legal opinion*,


why was a seperate legal opinion needed??
did someone impersonate a cop YEPdid someone falsify a legal document to procur a gun YEP
if it was you or i would they have waited till the dust settled and let us slide NOPE
CAN ANYONE TELL ME IS DUNCAN GARNER A LICENCED FIREAM OWNER /USER

----------


## Maca49

There's no doubt in my mine she escaped conviction due to her connections to the govt, someone told the cops NO

----------


## Kscott

I don't think there's any chance of convincing you the NZ Police aren't that corrupt, especially for such a high profile case. Secrets are difficult to keep.

----------


## mikee

> I don't think there's any chance of convincing you the NZ Police aren't that corrupt, especially for such a high profile case. Secrets are difficult to keep.


You can add me to that list.................... our coppers just like the rest of NZ population are not squeeky clean BUT they should be squeeky cleaner than the rest of us and be seen to be so if they expect the general public to respect and trust them.


and you can bet your bottom dollar if it was a licensed firearms owner who "impersonated' a police officer on that form they would have had the whole "library" thrown at them

----------


## Jexla

Let's not kid ourselves here, it was wrong to not convict her, the fact it may have came from the police directly is probably more worrying than the chance it didn't....

----------


## stug

As much as i hate to say it, she would not have been found guilty at court. Even though she broke the law her intent was not criminal. And that is what the defence would have focussed on. I think though that should Tipple go ahead with his civil case he would win as the bar is lower for a civil conviction.

----------


## gsp follower

> As much as i hate to say it, she would not have been found guilty at court. Even though she broke the law her intent was not criminal. And that is what the defence would have focussed on. I think though that should Tipple go ahead with his civil case he would win as the bar is lower for a civil conviction.


is intent knowlingly breaking the law for some spurious supposed public good/ratings?? i think yes?did she talk to her boss about doing this i imagine she had to clear it in this litigious scratch my back era??
would she have got a legal opinion in this day of arse covering?probably

----------


## gadgetman

> As much as i hate to say it, she would not have been found guilty at court. Even though she broke the law her intent was not criminal. And that is what the defence would have focussed on. I think though that should Tipple go ahead with his civil case he would win as the bar is lower for a civil conviction.


Her intent was definitely criminal as that is what she was tying to show, if not then she wouldn't have had a story. It would be exactly the same as driving a car at 160km/h though downtown Wellington to show it can be done even though knowing that it is illegal.

----------


## GravelBen

> It would be exactly the same as driving a car at 160km/h though downtown Wellington to show it can be done even though knowing that it is illegal.


And the police response is the equivalent of using that as justification to lower the speed limit from 50 to 30km/h.

----------


## top gun

> is intent knowlingly breaking the law for some spurious supposed public good/ratings?? i think yes?did she talk to her boss about doing this i imagine she had to clear it in this litigious scratch my back era??
> would she have got a legal opinion in this day of arse covering?probably


 Mark Weldon was the CEO of Media Works at the time & according the NZ Herald clip that I have he gave the go ahead for the team to proceed with their scam.

When Nic Taylor finishes tearing the whole lot of the scheming bathplugs to pieces in court,  they won't know if they've been punched,drilled or countersunk!!!!   The sooner & more publicly done the better.

----------


## GravelBen

> And the police response is the equivalent of using that as justification to lower the speed limit from 50 to 30km/h.


Also it means we should ban Nissan Skylines, it doesn't matter if it was actually done with a rental Corolla because *everybody knows* that psycho drivers are attracted to Skylines.

----------


## gsp follower

> *Mark Weldon* was the CEO of Media Works at the time & according the NZ Herald clip that I have he gave the go ahead for the team to proceed with their scam.



jon boys bum chum you mean :Grin: 



> When Nic Taylor finishes tearing the whole lot of the scheming bathplugs to pieces in court, they won't know if they've been punched,drilled or countersunk!!!! The sooner &* more publicly done the better*]


how public will it get if the media sticks together and stays away or worse stays quiet.

im still waiting on a reply from story as to whether garners a licenced firearms user :Grin:

----------


## mikee

> Her intent was definitely criminal as that is what she was tying to show, if not then she wouldn't have had a story. It would be exactly the same as driving a car at 160km/h though downtown Wellington to show it can be done even though knowing that it is illegal.


Or being caught driving over the limit. "Sorry officer I didn't INTEND to drink quite so much but I was trying to show others its possible " try that one and see where you end up

----------


## gsp follower

thats what shit about the whole mess
the cops want public help when it suits them but when we want to see everybody treated the same, and therefore have something to base the old respect they used to have on ?they let us down .
percieved or not this is a nail in the coffin of the one law for all claims of crusher and the supposed law and order party. 
yep we are tough on boy racers tough on   fine dodgers
 tough on tax evasion oops firearms crime oops burglary including upteen dealer and collector firearms robberies still unsolved oops

----------


## GravelBen

As I was taught in a first year uni law paper... "Justice must not only be done, but be seen to be done"

----------


## gsp follower

> Police say they have recovered another pistol from a large collection of guns allegedly sold by a Coromandel collector on the black market.
> 
> The Glock automatic pistol was found in a bag by a man who stopped his car on State Highway 25, near Thames on Friday. A sawn-off shotgun was found nearby.
> 
> "Operation Might" head Detective Senior Sergeant Greg Nicholls said the pistol was one of 121 restricted weapons police allege collector John Noel Mabey sold on the black market.
> 
> Six other weapons have been recovered.
> 
> *Mabey's collector's licence was revoked at the end of August when he was arrested on 20 firearms offences and a charge of making a false statement to police.*
> ...


his best chance is to change his name to du plesssis allan: :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
:


> Most of the illegal firearms are *stolen in residential burglaries or from collectors by organised criminal groups, police documents released under the Official Information Act show.*
> 
> "Research indicates there is already a large pool of illegally held firearms in New Zealand and that* firearms of almost any type can be obtained relatively easily from within the criminal fraternity without needing to source illicit firearms from overseas,"* according to the 2011 National Strategic Assessment paper.
> 
> But a request for the *total number of guns reported stolen* in each police district over the past years was refused - *because the records do not exist.*


really really* fuckin realy* 
then get off our cases and catch the c...s who are doing it and put the blame and shame where it belongs not on the average law abiding gun owner/user

----------


## Tommy

> As I was taught in a first year uni law paper... "Justice must not only be done, but be seen to be done"


THAT is exactly the point.

----------


## Tommy

> his best chance is to change his name to du plesssis allan:
> :
> 
> really really* fuckin realy* 
> then get off our cases and catch the c...s who are doing it and put the blame and shame where it belongs not on the average law abiding gun owner/user


Three shorts out of the Mabey stash have been used against police already. How that fucker isn't in jail for 20 years I'll never understand. It's reasonably well-known who stood him over and why.

----------


## Ranger 888

I sent this to the "NZ Herald" this morning: Last year HdPA contravened the Arms Act wilfully by using another person's firearms licence and false details in order to purchase a firearm, thus committing a criminal act. Her rationale was to expose a "loophole" in the firearms purchasing system. The Police decided not to lay charges against her. Recently a man obtained some firearms by forging a firearms licence and using incorrect forms. If he is apprehended and chooses to use the same defence as Heather (exposing a "loophole"), will the Police treat him similarly? I think not.

----------


## gsp follower

[QUOTE ]I am the holder of a Firearms Licence and of 18 years of age and over. I acknowledge that all information I will provide during checkout procedure is true and correct and that it is an federal offence to offer false information reguarding this.
By law your name address and firearms licence details must be recorded on a reciept and kept ,for all firearms , and parts transactions.][/QUOTE]

lucky she didnt auzzie pull her stunt in auz.
 they really dont give a monkeys its only the law abiding they incovenience and put cost onto.
all the while living under the protection of the most damaging of guns ,in the hands of udertrained operators,which they wouldnt hesitate to call on if they felt threatened.

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## top gun

> I sent this to the "NZ Herald" this morning: Last year HdPA contravened the Arms Act wilfully by using another person's firearms licence and false details in order to purchase a firearm, thus committing a criminal act. Her rationale was to expose a "loophole" in the firearms purchasing system. The Police decided not to lay charges against her. Recently a man obtained some firearms by forging a firearms licence and using incorrect forms. If he is apprehended and chooses to use the same defence as Heather (exposing a "loophole"), will the Police treat him similarly? I think not.


  I may have missed the answer to this question somewhere in all the comments on this subject?? But:  What was the "loophole" in the previous mail order procedure?????

  F'kd if I could see one apart from forgery and impersonation of police arms office people!!!!! & other criminal  PREMEDITATED acts.

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## Gibo

:36 1 5:

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## Maca49

Now @Gibo HARDEN THE FUCK UP!!! :Thumbsup:

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## Gibo

> Now @Gibo HARDEN THE FUCK UP!!!


What are you on about? I'm rolling my eyes cause TG like clock work comes and stokes this one up with the same question  :Grin:  Take your advise above but swap harden with shut  :Psmiley:

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## Kscott

> I may have missed the answer to this question somewhere in all the comments on this subject?? But:  What was the "loophole" in the previous mail order procedure?????
> 
>   F'kd if I could see one apart from forgery and impersonation of police arms office people!!!!! & other criminal  PREMEDITATED acts.


Umm, this was answered and you ticked 'like' in March.




> The loop hole was that someone could use someone else's firearms licence number,and impersonate a police constable to make a fraudulent document to obtain a firearm through online/mail order sales.


Except it wasn't a loophole, but a flaw in the system that people believed a piece of paper mailed to them because they wanted to.

+1 for @Gibo , this is old news and has gone to bed a long time ago.

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## Steve123

> Umm, this was answered and you ticked 'like' in March.
> 
> 
> 
> Except it wasn't a loophole, but a flaw in the system that people believed a piece of paper mailed to them because they wanted to.
> 
> +1 for @Gibo , this is old news and has gone to bed a long time ago.


Then why bring it up again?

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

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## stretch

> Then why bring it up again?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk


topgun brought it up again, not kscott.

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## Steve123

It would be bearable if HDPA looked nice

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

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## Maca49

> What are you on about? I'm rolling my eyes cause TG like clock work comes and stokes this one up with the same question  Take your advise above but swap harden with shut


Well SHUT UP then, shit I enjoyed saying that! :Thumbsup:

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## Rushy

> It would be bearable if HDPA looked nice
> 
> Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk


So Steve you see the bulldog in drag as well huh?

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## Steve123

> So Steve you see the bulldog in drag as well huh?


The heads out of proportion to her body and I reckon there's a fair dollop of neanderthal in her gene pool. Good on the old goat who's humping her but I find it hard to respect any woman who's married to some one 30 years her senior.

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## Gapped axe

it's obviously not the sex then, oops sorry Rushy, :ORLY:  Maca :Wtfsmilie:

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## Rushy

> it's obviously not the sex then, oops sorry Rushy, Maca


I find that with age comes refined technique which has led to enhanced ability GA.  on the other hand Maca was telling me that by the time he takes his hearing aid off and takes out his false teeth his wife has given up waiting and has gone to sleep on him.

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## Maca49

What! ? I not complain :Wink:

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## mikee

:Have A Nice Day:

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## kotuku

well funky Duncy Garner has managed to make a c....t of himself by being a right cock this time without Heifer do see mee Allen. TV3 organise some nude dining item in some swanky jaffaland eating establishment then show all the waitresses  girly bits and waiters boy bits on primetime TV.
 all Duncy can do is get embarrased in the studio afterward. this is the same bunch of MSM retards who allow photos to be taken of a certain famous female and male announcer unloading copious quantities of piss for a party to celebrate the demise of the incumbent CEO.
 another pratt interviews one of TV3s senior female reporters(suitably indignant)on his radio squawkback show but both overlook revealing shes actually married to one of TV3s bigmouth reporters oft quoted about this crap!
 whats the old saying -inmates running the asylum!no wonder the cops didnt charge over the guncity issue -fuck me a defence of idiotic insanity would have blown it clean out of the water!

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## veitnamcam

Just another ratings stunt.

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## bully

Wouldn't know after the firearm stunt I don't watch there bullshit show.
I might of keep watching if the show was filmed from a jail cell.

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## veitnamcam

> Wouldn't know after the firearm stunt I don't watch there bullshit show.
> I might of keep watching if the show was filmed from a jail cell.


Iv never watched it!

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## screamO

> Iv never watched it!


I actually recorded the episode as I want to see what they were on about with the plumbers, then I heard about what had happened so I watched it last night :Thumbsup:  It's bullshit thou

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## Kscott

> some swanky jaffaland eating establishment


1st time I've ever heard Hamilton described in this way. Hopefully the last.

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## timattalon

> Just another ratings stunt.



No, sorry. I don't agree with this statement. It credits them with too much forethought and intelligence. They have proven often enough they are not that capable. 



(Of fore thought or life in general....)

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