# Firearms and Shooting > Firearms, Optics and Accessories >  Minimum legal barrel length and overall length for firearms

## A.J.P.

Hi guys,

I just wanted your advice on whether there exists any current legislation in New Zealand relating to the minimum barrel length for either rifles, pistols or shotguns and OAL for shotguns? Having looked into this, all the information that I can find is that a pistol is defined in part as having an OAL of less than 762mm and a rifle as more than 762mm, but nothing specific to barrel length - and nothing at all relating to shotguns. Any advice you could offer would be gratefully received.


Cheers,

A.J.P.

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## Beavis

There is no law regarding barrel length. The overall length of the firearm is the deciding factor. As I understand it there is an agreement between pistol NZ and the police that pistols below a certain barrel length are not to be shot and are classified as "C" category. Somebody better informed can elaborate on that. There is no distinction between rifles and shotguns here.

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## Spanners

Beavis is right - although some will dribble on that min barrel is 16" which is bollox

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## Spiker

Minimum barrel length of 16" is a US law, perhaps why some think it applies, but it doesn't.  As long a the rifle or shotgun is over 762 mm all is well.

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## 7mmwsm

Minimum length for barrels on handguns on a B licence is 4 inches.

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## Kiwishooter

Aussie also has a minimum barrel length of 16" for rifles.........Kiwi

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## Toby

Do you think this will change anytime soon?

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## gimp

No reason to.

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## Beavis

Digit asked PNZ if they would be interested in working something out with the cops to bring in short barrel AR's (below legal length) on B cat, but they weren't interested in pursuing it.

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## gimp

Some kind of SBR/SBS category would be neat. Allow MSSA to be SBR/SBS, they're already registered etc

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## Beavis

Be sweet if MSSA's didn't have a legal length full stop. I want a short AR for reasons.

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## Beavis

Like these http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012armamen...590Silvers.pdf

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## gimp

I am a short skinny man and I like short guns.

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## Digit

Dan Hardy is building short 300blks with pinned can. I think he iis using sbr length barrels built by truflite?
I'm putting together a little 12.5" with an Oceania defence can that slips under a Samson rail back to the gas block. Will be 556 though.

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## Digit

> Digit asked PNZ if they would be interested in working something out with the cops to bring in short barrel AR's (below legal length) on B cat, but they weren't interested in pursuing it.


PNZ put the question to nz police but they said no. It's a pity as it would have been a very affordable 3 gun option at the time. It's fairly irrelevant now as you no longer need a hand in for importing a e-cat for target shooting.
.

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## Haggie

This thread inspired me. This is by no means an ar15 sbr but still a hell of alot of fun  :ORLY: 



overall length is bang on 800 mm or just a tad shorter so well over the legal length. jut did this a few hours ago cant wait to take it for a blast to see how it goes.

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## CreepingDeath

What cal is it? Or shotgun

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

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## Haggie

Shotgun, a 12g norinco i got for $80 a while ago.

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## Spanners

That forend looks like they should be on a single - not like my Baikals one
Need to attack it a bit more I think

Loud is a word that comes to mind when looking at that LOL

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## Haggie

> That forend looks like they should be on a single - not like my Baikals one
> Need to attack it a bit more I think
> 
> Loud is a word that comes to mind when looking at that LOL


It is a single lol yea loud with a big flash coming out the spout

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## Bill999

> Like these http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012armamen...590Silvers.pdf


that is all sorts of cool

what is the legality behind a really short 223 barrel with a suppressor pinned so It cannot be removed that the total package comes to 764mm?

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## steven

> Hi guys,
> 
> I just wanted your advice on whether there exists any current legislation in New Zealand relating to the minimum barrel length for either rifles, pistols or shotguns and OAL for shotguns? Having looked into this, all the information that I can find is that a pistol is defined in part as having an OAL of less than 762mm and a rifle as more than 762mm, but nothing specific to barrel length - and nothing at all relating to shotguns. Any advice you could offer would be gratefully received.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> A.J.P.



"A pistol is any firearm that is designed or adapted to be held and fired with one hand, and includes any firearm that is less than 762 mm in length."

https://www.police.govt.nz/services/...code-section-3

 :Have A Nice Day:

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## steven

> that is all sorts of cool
> 
> what is the legality behind a really short 223 barrel with a suppressor pinned so It cannot be removed that the total package comes to 764mm?


Ask your AO , let us know how it went when you get out...

 :XD:

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## Beavis

> that is all sorts of cool
> 
> what is the legality behind a really short 223 barrel with a suppressor pinned so It cannot be removed that the total package comes to 764mm?


Legal as. There is/was a 7.5" upper on gun stuff set up like that

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## Bill999

how was the suppressor attached? 
pins?

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## Beavis

To take it off you had to disassemble the upper in a way that rendered it inoperable

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## Bill999

or i suppose i could just tack it on with the welder

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## Bill999

has anyone ever seen the gasses from a suppressor bieng used to cycle the action rather than the gas block set up typically used?

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## Spanners

i talked to AO about a short 9mm barrel (5") with a supp that holds the barrel onto the upper - ie supp has barrel nut in it
Remove the supp, the gun falls apart.
AO refered it to the Police Armourer, and his FINAL say was that the supp could be removed and a normal barrel nut fitted and would not be allowed.
I suggested that if you did so you were making the gun deliberately illegally short, thus not the point of the exercise, and that if you WANTED to make an illegally short gun, you would simply get the hacksaw out and chop the butt or barrel off.

Its all BS as a punch and hammer will remove a roll pin (not 'legal'), but if it has a weld tack on it, its fine.

I've worked a way to run a super short barrel with a can on it - basically using a long flashider fitted to the barrel and a tack, and using that as the internal porting for the supp, while maintaining min OAL when totally disassembled.

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## Digit

Its a joke. You could have a gun like an AR just over the minimum length and you can remove the stock with a single turn of a stock screw to make the gun shorter therefore illegal. However a muzzle break fitted to the same gun with a crush washer requiring a vice an a barrel clamp to remove would be illegal in the length consideration.

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## steven

@digit and spanners, bear in mind the armourer is giving an opinion that may or may not be legally correct, only a court can decide that I believe. Given they lost on the pistol grip thing I'd suggest that if a suppressor is permanently fitted in such a way that if it or the bit its attached to was removed the gun was made in-operable I'd expect it to be legal, the law seems very precise to me.  Guess you need to make one and wave it in front of your AO and see how it works out for you....

Another thought, if the barrel and suppressor was machined in one piece how doesnt that work? or what about a barrel with a total length overbarrel suppressor?

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## Cyclist

Howsabout just having a nice normal length gun? 762mm is hardly a punt gun now is it...  Is this purely fashion?  something for 3 gun playtime? or have you lot taken to wearing overcoats and hanging around banks  :Zomg: 

Reading these things makes me wonder if people WANT to have greter restrictions placed on firearms owners - take the piss and you get noticed and legislation gets put in place to cover the loophole - and probably erodes the status quo at the same time.

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## Spanners

> @digit and spanners, bear in mind the armourer is giving an opinion that may or may not be legally correct, only a court can decide that I believe. Given they lost on the pistol grip thing I'd suggest that if a suppressor is permanently fitted in such a way that if it or the bit its attached to was removed the gun was made in-operable I'd expect it to be legal, the law seems very precise to me.  Guess you need to make one and wave it in front of your AO and see how it works out for you....
> 
> Another thought, if the barrel and suppressor was machined in one piece how doesnt that work? or what about a barrel with a total length overbarrel suppressor?


My reasoning to go super short is to keep all bullets subsonic, there is no need for another 6+ inches of barrel - maintaining legal OAL isnt really an issue.
A sub 10" barrel gun point like shit anyway
Porting the barrel to reduce velocity doesnt really work due to jacket damage and backboring relies on the bore being perfectly down the centre
The prob has been overcome in other ways, its now down to building another gas 45ACP to put into practice
Gun job #241 on the list  :Have A Nice Day:

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## gimp

> Howsabout just having a nice normal length gun? 762mm is hardly a punt gun now is it...  Is this purely fashion?  something for 3 gun playtime? or have you lot taken to wearing overcoats and hanging around banks 
> 
> Reading these things makes me wonder if people WANT to have greter restrictions placed on firearms owners - take the piss and you get noticed and legislation gets put in place to cover the loophole - and probably erodes the status quo at the same time.


I'm short and skinny and I like my guns the same way, and there's no logical reason why I shouldn't be allowed to

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## Bill999

Pinning with a blob of weld drilled thru the suppressor thread and barrel thread would work too. if your supp was alloy an alloy tig would be the business, then at least a gunsmith would be able to remove it for maintance if nessary

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## steven

hehe, i was tempted to ask the AO when he turns up to check things, but he might look at me funny..........

 :Wtfsmilie: 

LOL, all these odd questions....like can a stripper clip be loaded in a car and whats the min gun length incl supressor....he might just carry my sad ass away there and then and introduce me to bubba my new best friend I dont need....

 :Sick:

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## Bill999

better to ask and know I say. 

Bear in mind we are more up to date than most police officers, Im pretty sure that the "check your thumbhole"poster is still up in our police station
It pays not to piss the bear off tho, sometimes they try to bite

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## Bill999

Id really like to practice on a sks first, but chopping down their gass system may be hard with the piston set up
in the end the whole rifle would cost what a barrel would for an ar15

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## Beavis

> Howsabout just having a nice normal length gun? 762mm is hardly a punt gun now is it...  Is this purely fashion?  something for 3 gun playtime? or have you lot taken to wearing overcoats and hanging around banks 
> 
> Reading these things makes me wonder if people WANT to have greter restrictions placed on firearms owners - take the piss and you get noticed and legislation gets put in place to cover the loophole - and probably erodes the status quo at the same time.


So what just don't be different?

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## steven

@beavis, hehehe Ive asked my AO some Qs, "I'll get back to you"  .........

@cyclist, sometimes ppl like to play with things to see how they work/ work out...surely asking means we want to be legal?

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## SiB

So what's the story with pistol-grip (no shoulder stock at all) on a shottie (mav 88 or whatever) for example. Is the gun not legal at all or just in no-mans-land? (they work out to be over the 764mm limit)

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## 7mmsaum

THe latest Hunting and Fishing cattledog has a whole page of "Tactical" shotguns with pistol grips.

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## SiB

Yeah I looked at them - they all have shoulder stocks. It's the pistol-grip option alone ie no shoulder stock whatsoever that I'm unsure about.

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## gimp

If it's over 762mm it's fine. 

A pistol is 'under 762mm or designed or adapted to be fired with one hand' 

Pretty hard to fire a 762mm long 12g one handed

PGO shotguns suck at everything though

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## Bill999

iv had one of those 12ga 8 shot Mossbergs with just a pistol grip on. 
very dangerous to fire with one hand let alone incredibly hard to take the weight
firing it one handed it nearly hit me in the face
utterly useless gun, with out the shouldering capability it is nearly impossible to hit anything
took it off and put the original stock back on.

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## Beavis

Had a burn on a 590 with just a PG. Heaps of fun but as everyone else said good for fuck all.

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## SiB

> iv had one of those 12ga 8 shot Mossbergs with just a pistol grip on. 
> very dangerous to fire with one hand let alone incredibly hard to take the weight
> firing it one handed it nearly hit me in the face
> utterly useless gun, with out the shouldering capability it is nearly impossible to hit anything
> took it off and put the original stock back on.


Looks to me those PGO shotties are most appropriate in a personal-defense or 'house' gun scenario. Which doesn't quite match our 'hunting' or target-shooting purpose which most of us got our FAL under the guise of.

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## Bill999

honestly they are terrable for hitting things and incredibly hard to aim

if it was for anything that requires quick shooting the butt stock that comes on them from factory will do miles better for quick shooting like home defence suituations, they look like that to appeal to stupid kids that watch too much tv
I know, I use to be/still am one of them

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## gimp

> Looks to me those PGO shotties are most appropriate in a personal-defense or 'house' gun scenario. Which doesn't quite match our 'hunting' or target-shooting purpose which most of us got our FAL under the guise of.


Nah they really suck for everything

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## Bill999

> Nah they really suck for everything


+1

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## Cyclist

Hmmm - trying a short gun to be different, Hi, I'm the guy with the handcuffs on  :Pacman: 

Yes its an arbitary number, but so what: its the number.  The reason?  presumably about concealment or simply having a number which defines pistol vs rifle.  Can anybody come up with an actual REAL reason why they need a rifle which is shorter than short?  Plenty of blah blah but REALLY?????

And "asking so we can keep it legal?"  More like asking "whats the dodgiest thing I can do to stay sort of legal, maybe, Im not sure, oh well wtf..."

anyhoo, lose your license, your job and your guns just to have a short shooter = cool plan  :X X:   Even if you got pinged, challenged it and won (as in SL8 guy) imagine the hassle you are taking on.

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## Beavis

It's either legal or it's not. "Cuz I want one" is a good enough reason.

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## 308

> honestly they are terrable for hitting things and incredibly hard to aim
> 
> if it was for anything that requires quick shooting the butt stock that comes on them from factory will do miles better for quick shooting like home defence suituations, they look like that to appeal to stupid kids that watch too much tv
> I know, I use to be/still am one of them


Exact same experience here, the PG makes ya point it all funny and renders an otherwise good gun only useful as a movie prop.
Waste of $70 - hopefully my mistake saves the money of others

Mind you, in movies when someone gets hit with a 12G they go flying backwards about 3m so I should've known it was bullshit..

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## kieran

Build/buy a bullpup! I am building an SKS based one at the moment as a bush rifle, would have it functioning but for the damn shoddy machining inside the aftermarket gas tube scope mount I bought off trademe...
OAL is 782mm, this includes the rubber butt pad. I may pack it out to 765 over the hardware (limbsaver not included) just to be safe. It has a 20" barrel.
Black Sheep Compact carbine (Bullpup MkIV)
As for the PG shotguns, they make great doorknockers without too much OAL.

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## Brennos

Sorry if this has been answered, but how does one measure the over all length of a firearm with an adjustable, or folding stock?  Is it measured when it's fully open, or fully closed?

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## gimp

Fully open I think.

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## 6MMBR

cyclist, you should come hunt the Kaimais,, recon you will come back and cut inchs off your barrel.

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## Savage1

It's when the stock is fully closed, at its shortest position. Just remember if semi it will be classed E, no matter what the length, unless under 762mm, then it will be a B cat.

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## Digit

Its only B Cat if an approved pistol. Otherwise it will be C Cat

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## rs200nz

Just read this on the facebook page for NZAR15.com    Police have a new E Cat Folding/Collapsing stock interpretation.
It appears that if you have an E Cat firearm, you are now officially allowed to have a stock on that firearm that collapses below 762mm. Muzzle devices are not included in this length formula.
This opens the door for shorter barrel combinations as long as your guns total length can be extended to 762mm +
Note: this is E Cat only!

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## Timmay

Who came up with all this bullshit anyway? It only stops us honest people from owning more funs.

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## rs200nz

It's a bit of a weird rule in general.  You are saying someone is fit and proper to carry that e category firearm and protect it in the appropriate safe.  Then all of a sudden that person is going to potentially shorten it below a certain length and could possibly try to conceal it? oh right........

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## northdude

> I am a short skinny man and I like short guns.


ive got a small cock so naturally I like big blingy guns  :Thumbsup:

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## smidey

I've got a Jw15a that has the full over barrel suppressor. Suppressor off, its 800mm with an 11 inch tube. Its another 100mm long with suppressor fitted. Rules are only followed by honest people..... I forget where I was going with this after getting out the 22 for a measure, useless fucken post

Sent from my workbench

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## Beavis

800 mm is way legal

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## smidey

yeah the minimum is 762

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