# Firearms and Shooting > Firearms, Optics and Accessories >  How short on a 303?

## 300_BLK

Gonna do a short barreled 303 for bush hunting.

How short can I go for ease of moving through thick stuff?

I reload so could potentially use a faster powder?

Cheers

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## mawzer308

What pills are you going to use and how fast do you want them going? 303 isn't particularly fast to begin with. 16inch barrels have always been a good compromise between length and velocity. 2206h would be a good powder.

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## 300_BLK

150-180 grainers 

Just want the buggers  to stay on the deck is all

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## mawzer308

I reckon 150gr projectiles out of a 16inch barrel would be in the vicinity of 2400fps. Plenty of grunt to ground anything at bush ranges.

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## Beavis

The 125gr Barnaul soft points might be a goer for your purpose

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## Cordite

Go as short as you want, just avoid rifle OAL below 762mm as it then becomes pistol OAL!  Short barrel is just as accurate, and the velocity drop is insignificant for bush hunting ranges.  SMLE barrels are whippy so shortening has potential accuracy advantages.

But short barrels mean bigger flash, bang and kick, and the .303 is already loud!  If you can find a No 5 jungle carbine conical flash hider, it deflects some of that massive blast forwards and away from your ears  --- opposite to what a muzzle brake does.  Unfortunately the conical flash hider also increases kick.

If you have a SMLE to cut down, slug the barrel with a .32 lead buckshot, you may find the first portion of the barrel is nice and tight, then opens up the last 22cms or so.  I'd cut the barrel back to where its bore is tight.  No 4 enfields are usually uniformly bored so there won't be that dramatic transition in slug resistance about 22 cm from the muzzle.

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## Marty Henry

For short range in close cover forget speed concentrate on bullet weight and ideally use a round nosed one, 150 or 180 should be fine. As to barrel length jungle carbine length 20 inch is probably just right and will be no noisier than any other stumpy.
A fine choice of cartridge and rifle for the job in my opinion.

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## 300_BLK

Thanks for the replies guys!

I will slug the barrel but it is a No4 Mk2 and I will suppress it to remove the blast factor.

Certainly remember some loud booms and bright flashes spot lighting possums in my youth...

F.

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## Marty Henry

If its unbubbad so far (full wood etc) it may be worth selling and getting one thats been shortened in the forewood already. A mint no 2 fazakely went for $1100 at the ruahine auction and good no 1s $4-500. Sporterised only $1-200

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## kotuku

> Thanks for the replies guys!
> 
> I will slug the barrel but it is a No4 Mk2 and I will suppress it to remove the blast factor.
> 
> Certainly remember some loud booms and bright flashes spot lighting possums in my youth...
> 
> F.


betcha the bloody possums did too!
used my own beloved no4mk1* on a couple of occasions too on ye old jacko-bloody messy with a 180gnr nslug.second timeI had a dead one that wouldnt fallout of the tree unaided so .303chainsaw took the branch off!It was a no brainer as 5x.22slugs under his chin turned it into sludge !

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## 300_BLK

Don't worry it is an older PH Supreme model that I picked up for $150 not a minter

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## Tommy

Great for flames!

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## kotuku

most excellent too when covertly using 215gn armour piercing rds you suprise a regular force army NCO when you blow a hole in a steel target ,then much to his already considerable suprise you do it again.My TF platoon commander called a halt to my escapade as he was wise to me.bloody good laugh though.Old bloke firend of wifes family found a box or assorted sporting/exmilammo in his shed so i disposed of them.
sadly old thunderguts doesnt get as many outings these days,.

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## S.E.G

Currently putting together a 13 barreled cast bullet launcher it should be a fun shooter. 



The last 10 or so of barrel was pitted to buggery so it was shortened and recrowned and hand lapped and the bore is looking good to go. The barrel was also set back to allow the chamber to be cleaned up.

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## Marty Henry

The new sight radius will mean the graduations on the rear sight will no longer be correct which could cause misses. Might come in handy if you need to explain why you miss.

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## gundoc

My old 'truck gun' in Ashley Forest 40 odd years ago was 16" shortened MLE and worked very well on pigs and deer out to about 150 yards.

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## S.E.G

Ready for a trip to the range for this little lead launcher before I refinish the forend.

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## stug

Shot my first deer back in 1987 with a Jungle Carbine and 20yr old CAC 180vr ammo. My dad has one of the Bush Carbine rifles made in Canterbury. A little like the Jungle Carbine but different shaped top wood.

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## Marty Henry

> Ready for a trip to the range for this little lead launcher before I refinish the forend.


Interesting a .303 assault rifle! look out for Cursading Chris Cahill, did you cut the magazine down for any reason? Surely a bren mag would look more the part.

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## Chilli_Dog

> Interesting a .303 assault rifle! look out for Cursading Chris Cahill, did you cut the magazine down for any reason? Surely a bren mag would look more the part.


Not just an assault rifle but a battle assault rifle

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## Marty Henry

Whats your sight radius? Ive got a shortened ex pig hunters baikal single shot with an 8 inch radius that produced groups of 6 inches at 25 yards but with a red dot on will do 4 inches at 100,so dont blame the barrel if the results dont look so good

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## Cordite

> Ready for a trip to the range for this little lead launcher before I refinish the forend.


Phew, for a brief moment I thought you'd put a bump stock on her!

She'd also look cool and "right for the period" with a Stengun metal stock...  SMLE sporters just *beg* to get pimped, what with their two-part stocks.

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## Micky Duck

going that short with resulting low speed anyway you might want to look at how heavy a cast load you can get....... the 220grn .308 pills MIGHT be soft enough to expand and grip bore ok and group reasonably.... even a 180 grn soft cast might be better than std cup n core as it might just mash up better,worth a crack either which way.

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## 300_BLK

Thanks @Micky Duck I have some 212 gr lead round nose, dies and brass. I’ll cut her to 16” and throw the Ase Utra can on

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## Cordite

@S.E.G. 

Better not use .308 slugs - if bullets have to be upset / obturated a lot in order to fit the barrel they won't be consistently centered, leading to drop in accuracy.  I'd go for a subsonic heavy flat nosed hollow slug cast for the .303.  After all, no point in powering up for a 400m kill with that minimal sight radius (though the barrel itself would not be expected to have a problem with that just because it is short!).

There is a fellow on TM selling quite reasonably priced cast .308 hunting slugs, which he size at either .309 or .310 ...suggesting they are born a bit fatter out of the mould - maybe you could ask him to sell them to you "native" even though that would need to be unlubed.  Less need for lube with sub loads.

See: https://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hun...1463273144.htm 

Speaking of the sights (going back to the sten gun talk) you could remove the rear open sight and instead mount a small fixed piece of L-shape iron with a decent peephole atop the charger bridge?   Not much need for elevation adjustment at those ranges and you can readily drift as well as file down the height of the fore sight post.  

If you're really comfortable with open sights, you can go super-minimalistic: just file a deep "V"-notch atop the charger bridge!  It could save quite a few grams of weight to get rid of that open snaggy rear sight along with the massive steel brick it rides on, and won't interfere with stripper clips.

Hope some of the above is of use to you.

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## 300_BLK

Wasn’t there a rare Enfield pattern that had v notches in the charger bridges? Trench rifle of some description

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## Cordite

> Wasn’t there a rare Enfield pattern that had v notches in the charger bridges? Trench rifle of some description


 @300_BLK

No idea, but the charger bridge is far enough from your eyes to use for a V-notch sight.  As most WW1 shooting was <200yards it seems having elevation adjustment was superfluous.  Maybe the trench SMLE was an unknown No 1 Mk III**

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## Cordite

Come to think of it, average WW1 soldier age was about 35yrs, so having a V-notch in the charger bridge maybe not great idea - presbyopia often setting in about age 40...

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## Luke556

> Ready for a trip to the range for this little lead launcher before I refinish the forend.


That looks mean, I have a similar gun with a suppressor.
Its pretty heavy  -  an arm workout whilst walking around
It shoots/groups OK at 100m for a 60+ year old cannon

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## 300_BLK

Heys guys,

Want to follow this up. I have just switched jobs so have time on my hands again to get out hunting and follow up on all my ramblings...

Please let me know if I have anything wrong regarding my rifle as my Enfield Fu is weak.

So big thanks to  @gundoc who shortened my PH Deluxe in 303 to 16", threaded and mounted a rail on the gun.

I have put a Sig Sauer W3 3-9x40 on with sun optics alloy rings and have been reloading with some 150 grain Hornady interlocks with 40 gr of WW748, BM2 and AR2208. I used the hornadys as they were in my projectile box and are .312" which is good for the old girl. I used some once fired PPU and S&B some of which was donated...yeah there were dramas.

I tried some 212gr cast lead from  @shooternz with 30gr AR2208 but will need to up the charge as the LabRadar was set to Rifle and couldn't aquire (below 1800 fps IIRC). Groups were 4" plus so need to crank them up a bit or try some W748.

So factory S&B 150 gr is shooting one ragged hole at 50m and 1" or less at 100m which I was pleasantly suprised by. Av Vel from the 16" BBL and ASE Utra 2325 fps.

WW748 4" groups and 2010 fps  @ 100m
AR2208 3" groups and 2310 fps @ 100m
BM2 1-1.5" groups and 2380 fps @ 100m



Nice and handy



I suffered from the classic case head separation and managed to remove it with some CRC Penetr8 and a 28 ga brass brush on a short rod. 

Apparently this issue is widely known and can be avoided by only reloading brass fired in your gun and by running a small wire or paperclip into the fired cases to 'feel' if there is a rim / doughnut developing when the brass flows forward.

I have heard neck sizing should prevent this (to a point) and have on hand  a 30 cal neck die and that will work well enough on the once fired brass to try to prevent this problem, I don't think 6 thou will be an issue... The R hand loaded round has been neck sized by the .308 Neck die and you can see the base of the bullet at the neck / shoulder junction. This was a test on a shagged bit of brass with a rim on the inside to see if it works. 

Will see how they go...

F

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## Micky Duck

there is in deep dark recesses of my memory a method using braces rubberbands (teeth braces) on the case for first firing to hold it against bolt face...and resizing appropreately from there on in.... someone with better memory than mine will know it.
very tidy rifle...good on ya for giving old girl a new lease on life.....
was using the same S&B factory stuff the other day..the projectiles look shorter than other fmj types we had misfire issues till gave bolt a plurry good dung out.

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## Driverman

Use an o ring to hold the case against the bolt headfor the first firing. Neck size from that point on. I shoot 220 grain cast at 1800fps and don't size the neck at all. Most 303 have a .314 bore or bigger and using a 308 projectile will not be accurate.

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## csmiffy

> Use an o ring to hold the case against the bolt headfor the first firing. Neck size from that point on. I shoot 220 grain cast at 1800fps and don't size the neck at all. Most 303 have a .314 bore or bigger and using a 308 projectile will not be accurate.


 @Driverman O ring right down by the rim?

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## shooternz

> Use an o ring to hold the case against the bolt headfor the first firing. Neck size from that point on. I shoot 220 grain cast at 1800fps and don't size the neck at all. Most 303 have a .314 bore or bigger and using a 308 projectile will not be accurate.


Get the headspace checked if an O ring will let the bolt close you have a headspace problem, .303's headspace on the rim not the shoulder

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## Micky Duck

correct but what fellas are doing is letting case grow on first firing and then keeping it long and sort of partial length resizing (minimal case movement) from there on in so brass lasts longer as its a close fit to chamber to begin with and isnt getting worked so much....

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## shooternz

It's not the working of the case by sizing that causes case head failure it's flexing of the case by the Lee Enfield action that causes it,
cases last longer in the P14 action as it does not flex, using mild loads will help the original cartridge was loaded with black powder 
also the military only use cases once, nobody reloaded the  .303 until the mid 1960's, it amazes me that anyone still uses the .303
for hunting with the availability of much better cartridge/rifle combinations,
I'm not complaining I sell a lot of cast bullets to .303 shooters just surprised how many are still in use.

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## Russian 22.

> It's not the working of the case by sizing that causes case head failure it's flexing of the case by the Lee Enfield action that causes it,
> cases last longer in the P14 action as it does not flex, using mild loads will help the original cartridge was loaded with black powder 
> also the military only use cases once, nobody reloaded the  .303 until the mid 1960's, it amazes me that anyone still uses the .303
> for hunting with the availability of much better cartridge/rifle combinations,
> I'm not complaining I sell a lot of cast bullets to .303 shooters just surprised how many are still in use.


It's probably the nostalgia. Playing Barry crump and the whole experience of hunting with an old rifle. I plan on getting a good one using it in the bush.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

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## kotuku

> It's not the working of the case by sizing that causes case head failure it's flexing of the case by the Lee Enfield action that causes it,
> cases last longer in the P14 action as it does not flex, using mild loads will help the original cartridge was loaded with black powder 
> also the military only use cases once, nobody reloaded the  .303 until the mid 1960's, it amazes me that anyone still uses the .303
> for hunting with the availability of much better cartridge/rifle combinations,
> I'm not complaining I sell a lot of cast bullets to .303 shooters just surprised how many are still in use.


 well please excuse me as i find my beloved no4mk1.303 is extremely effective for composting possums.in fact the last one that got a 18ogn RN blowjob ended up spread as a fine mist over nearly two grid squares..not that DOC would thank me for it. they also make an extremely effective chainsaw in an emergency!-namely removing dead possums from high up trees too high for this podgy wee bastard to climb!

seriously ive had more than one case separate at the head
.Ive actually got a.303 shell remover from my TF days -but a rat tailed rasp will suffice if youre bloody desperate.
me -inspect all brass........ minute shiny ring in front of rim..... -biff it no shaggin round!
i rank the .303 up there with me 12g as my heavy artillery.
luv it clap of thunder and whoa -bloody great hole if im on form.Its asn allround sensual experience.
alas old thunderguts sulks in the cabinet as the chinese twins 7.62x39&.223 often get a wee workout instead.

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## Proudkiwi

^^^Shooting possums out of a tree with a center fire because you’re too fat and useless to climb it?!? And claiming it on a public forum.

Fuck you’re a unit!

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## Micky Duck

and why not...Ive done it more than once and plurry sure will do it again.....

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## tiroatedson

> ^^^Shooting possums out of a tree with a center fire because youre too fat and useless to climb it?!? And claiming it on a public forum.
> 
> Fuck youre a unit!


Bear in mind it might of had a back drop...


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## Proudkiwi

> and why not...Ive done it more than once and plurry sure will do it again.....


Read it again and think about consequences if he misses. Which is likely with a piece of shit .303

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## Proudkiwi

> Bear in mind it might of had a back drop...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Possible but unlikely given the context of the statement.

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## Marty Henry

> It's not the working of the case by sizing that causes case head failure it's flexing of the case by the Lee Enfield action that causes it,
> cases last longer in the P14 action as it does not flex, using mild loads will help the original cartridge was loaded with black powder 
> also the military only use cases once, nobody reloaded the  .303 until the mid 1960's, it amazes me that anyone still uses the .303
> for hunting with the availability of much better cartridge/rifle combinations,
> I'm not complaining I sell a lot of cast bullets to .303 shooters just surprised how many are still in use.


Actually performance is only a little behind the .308. For pest goat shooting a 303 is probably still one of the best rifles for the job. Fast reload with chargers, speediest bolt action out there, and plenty of energy to tip things over.

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## bumblefoot

> Actually performance is only a little behind the .308. For pest goat shooting a 303 is probably still one of the best rifles for the job. Fast reload with chargers, speediest bolt action out there, and plenty of energy to tip things over.


I've got a Marlin XS 7mm-08 and to be honest; prefer using the old "three oh" more..... It's short, I used to use it as a pig gun. It has a 2.5x Weaver on it and still shoots 3" at 100 yards with factory ammo. I've bought a Howa Mini 223 recently, but am seriously thinking of putting a 4x on the .303 and selling the Marlin.  I really enjoy using a 74-year old gun to hunt with. And really a .303 through the boiler room is going to kill a deer as dead as a .308  :Wink: 

Mind you; I am thinking of buying a Lyman Trade gun or Deerstalker to hunt with; so maybe I'm a bit strange......   :Wink:

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## Micky Duck

> Read it again and think about consequences if he misses. Which is likely with a piece of shit .303


the projectile wont be stopped by a possum even if you do connect which is highly likely with a trusty ol 3o..... and yes when shooting up into a tree you do try for the main trunk or at least solid branch to be behind target.....generally speaking if you are in a place where you contemplating shooting at a possum with a centrefire you will have plenty heaps of safe area around you to lob a round into......without risk of hitting anyone or thing.

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## Proudkiwi

> the projectile wont be stopped by a possum even if you do connect which is highly likely with a trusty ol 3o..... and yes when shooting up into a tree you do try for the main trunk or at least solid branch to be behind target.....generally speaking if you are in a place where you contemplating shooting at a possum with a centrefire you will have plenty heaps of safe area around you to lob a round into......without risk of hitting anyone or thing.


Wow. You’re really trying to justify it aren’t you?!? 

The level of retardation displayed on this forum occasionally scares the shit out of me.

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## rockland

Personally I think a shotgun is ideal for shooting possums out of trees...pellets fall to ground after a few hundred metres AND it's a hell of a lot of fun. However noise can be a problem in more closely settled areas so most people just use a .22 which can apparently travel 2-3 km. A centrefire projectile goes a bit further but it is the shooters responsibility to ensure a safe backdrop eg. tree trunk or mountain.

Some guys say use an air rifle but I find poss are hard buggers to kill even with a .22

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## Marty Henry

I recall visiting a property at arkles bay to mediate a dispute many years ago. While inspecting the exterior I found a .22 embedded in a weatherboard. It had struck at a 60 degree downward angle and all but the heel was fully in the matai weatherboard. I dug it out for interests sake. The house was on a ridge and the nearest trees were about half a k away. Since then I have always been cautious with fall of shot and backdrop with any rifle.

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## kotuku

> Wow. You’re really trying to justify it aren’t you?!? 
> 
> The level of retardation displayed on this forum occasionally scares the shit out of me.


Ipresume youre referring to my post in your nauseous righteousness.well let me assure you both those incidents mentioned occurred miles from any bloody housing or habitation and were not a habit of mine! as for this retardation comment  well it says more about you the person than any other person .good day to you and your misery -conversation finished!

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## kotuku

> ^^^Shooting possums out of a tree with a center fire because youre too fat and useless to climb it?!? And claiming it on a public forum.
> 
> Fuck youre a unit!


lookat yourself in the mirror you spot of reject DNA and BTW-to quote me late mum "get the shit off your liver ya git!"
christ youre not a labour voter by any chance?? :Wink:

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## dogmatix

And....... the next forum fight starts.

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## Russian 22.

> And....... the next forum fight starts.


For a bunch of old blokes there certainly is a hell of a lot of drama and it ain't coming from the millennials hahahaha.

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## noelfj

I have a smle with a so-called stuffed barrel, 6" groups at 25 yards, so we cut in down, 1 inch at a time to 12 inches long and it produced about 1900 fps.
So it was put away for a few years, however mt almost 60 year old son like it as a bush gun so we are doing a bit of work on it.
The bore, that is the reamed hole is about 0.307 to 0.308, the grove, that is the broached slot in the bore appears to be 0.320 but I think that the rust and debris is only just being removed, I am upsetting 308 berries bullets and driving them through the barrel.
This rifle could be a BSA 8mm which was made in 1924. The bore is shiny whilst the groves are dark.

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