# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Home invasion

## Got-ya

Worth a read.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/piopio.../?ref=readmore

And guess who is in court  :Wtfsmilie:  :ORLY:

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## McNotty

The original Stuff article this morning made the victims (house owner and son) sound like torturous psychos, it was later edited once more evidence had come to light, later in the day of trial. 
Totally deserved what happened to them.

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## Got-ya

If you break into someones house and attack them. All bets are off, you are fair game.

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## Hermitage

> If you break into someones house and attack them. All bets are off, you are fair game.


In the USA....in NZ you would have to prove self-defense.

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## Shearer

Unbelievable.

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## erniec

Sounds like he still had a knife on him and accidently cut his finger.
Will be interesting to hear the outcome.

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## ROKTOY

Wow, A lot different than the original article this morning

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## XR500

> The original Stuff article this morning made the victims (house owner and son) sound like torturous psychos, it was later edited once more evidence had come to light, later in the day of trial. 
> Totally deserved what happened to them.


Quite correct. Stuff's write up last night made the victims sound like psychos. Now today we have the little shit stating he was going to do them in. FFS Breaking in to the same  house 3 times!  Twice in a week.
If this piece of shit does not get to do jail time the entire system is completely fucked.

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## 6x47

I can hear them in Texas right now- "Nothing a bullet wouldn't fix"

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## Hermitage

> I can hear them in Texas right now- "Nothing a bullet wouldn't fix"


It's safer to say Texas than 'many of the members of this forum'.

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## gmm

IF anyone wants to see how little regard the media have for the facts when reporting, read the story published by stuff on this court case. No regard for the facts, sensationalised headlines, totally in favour of the burglar.  It shows how little regard they have for the truth.
I read the stuff report and it made the farmer and his son out to be real headcases, but it was hard to understand if they had acted as reported by stuff why they would have called the Police, so it didn't read true.
Another example of how sensationalised reporting is used to discredit one party over another, whip up the online judgement and vitriol, only to find that when the truth and facts are exposed the actual incident is much different.

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## JessicaChen

> IF anyone wants to see how little regard the media have for the facts when reporting, read the story published by stuff on this court case. No regard for the facts, sensationalised headlines, totally in favour of the burglar.  It shows how little regard they have for the truth.
> I read the stuff report and it made the farmer and his son out to be real headcases, but it was hard to understand if they had acted as reported by stuff why they would have called the Police, so it didn't read true.
> Another example of how sensationalised reporting is used to discredit one party over another, whip up the online judgement and vitriol, only to find that when the truth and facts are exposed the actual incident is much different.


Most of the mainstream media don't care at all about reporting basic balanced information. They seem to behave more like activists than journalists. And there is nothing that really encourages them to NOT behave like a bunch of activists reporting sensationalist biased news with catchy headlines to make people feel strong emotions. Get clicks make money. I always end up thinking back to the fairly recent incident of mass reporting of fake news with a very obvious bias is this 
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ent-smile.html
I can't believe that page is still up.

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## charliehorse

> It's safer to say Texas than 'many of the members of this forum'.


No thanks

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## McNotty

It’s actually really troubling what that young guy said in court. Pretty sure there’s some very serious mental issues there. Zero remorse and horrific intentions.

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## 7mmwsm

No mention of the previous entries to Bill's House. They mention two, but there have been others.
Also no mention of how the restoritive justice programme was being used between Bill and Old fingerless prior to this last event. The last get together only a matter of days prior.
I'd suggest Bill's son should be in charge  of the restoritive programme.

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## Longrun

I have dogs to safely account for this kind of BS

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## 6x47

Fair enough but many people don't want aggressive dogs simply to deal with this problem, and more importantly, shouldn't have to consider that option.

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## Moa Hunter

It does seem that every time the victim apprehends the criminal the Police charge the victim. Some would consider that it is best to just deal with the situation and not ph Police

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## gonetropo

35 years ago i installed alarm system in houses for people for when people went on holiday
25 years ago i installed alarms systems for people going out to the shops for an hou
10 years ago it was for people going out for 10 minutes to pick up the kids from school
now its for people who want them for while they are at home, they barricade themselves to a bedroom/ensuite and alarm the rest at night

and yet the crime rate has dropped? yeah right

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## 7mmwsm

> Fair enough but many people don't want aggressive dogs simply to deal with this problem, and more importantly, shouldn't have to consider that option.


You might be surprised how handy the good old family Labrador is in situations like this.

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## gonetropo

> You might be surprised how handy the good old family Labrador is in situations like this.


issue is if some scumbag breaks in, and a bloody bichon bites them then the dog will get put down!
home defence rules need to be put down in black and white not airy fairy " fair and reasonable force" which is open to the interpretation of judge of the day in the court.

ok: most of us have knocked on the wrong house door in the evening, and getting beaten to a pulp/shot etc is completely ridiculous.
some of us may have had the emergency urinary relief on the side of the road, dont expect a beating etc either
but if you have physically broken into a house or business, especially knowing that there are people inside including children then god help ya from what happens

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## McNotty

> You might be surprised how handy the good old family Labrador is in situations like this.


Dogs can definitely sense a situation like that, I’m sure there are plenty of people around that have been surprised by what they thought was their harmless family dog, when it arcs up in a dangerous situation. 0 - 100 real quick

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## chainsaw

as a victim in NZ you are allowed to use "reasonable and proportionate force" in self defense.  "Proportionate" is balanced against the level of threat or violence perceived by the victim.  The perp admits he's lying on the floor holding a knife and intends to kill the farmer if he gets the chance.  Surprised it was only a finger that cut.   Hopefully the court/judge has a brain and some morals.   
Original reporting by Stuff was truly awful, and flat out wrong (libelous) . They should be on trial as well.  Media behaviour wont change unless there are consequences.

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## Longrun

> Fair enough but many people don't want aggressive dogs simply to deal with this problem, and more importantly, shouldn't have to consider that option.


assess the risk for yourself I guess

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## tetawa

> as a victim in NZ you are allowed to use "reasonable and proportionate force" in self defense.  "Proportionate" is balanced against the level of threat or violence perceived by the victim.  The perp admits he's lying on the floor holding a knife and intends to kill the farmer if he gets the chance.  Surprised it was only a finger that cut.   Hopefully the court/judge has a brain and some morals.   
> Original reporting by Stuff was truly awful, and flat out wrong (libelous) . They should be on trial as well.  Media behaviour wont change unless there are consequences.


When you fly the Donald Trump supporters flag on your farm the chance of anything positive towards you from this media would be less than minimal.

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## Andygr

> Fair enough but many people don't want aggressive dogs simply to deal with this problem, and more importantly, shouldn't have to consider that option.


I agree that you shouldn't have to consider that option but I'd like to add that the dog doesn't have to be at all aggressive. They make superb early warning systems, as the people saved from fire by their pet will testify.
Dog alerts family to fire | Ashburton Courier

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## Longrun

Also, many guarding dogs aren't aggressive per se and are also family pets.

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## Longrun

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300...d-teen-burglar


It appears these 'good citizens' intentionally cut the burglars finger off as part of 'rough justice'

If so, its clear you can't do that without being prosecuted IMO.

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## 7mmwsm

Don't forget they beat the f... out of Bill before he got the better of them. He is lucky to be alive.

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## tac a1

> Don't forget they beat the f... out of Bill before he got the better of them. He is lucky to be alive.


In the eyes of the law the fact that they 'beat the fuck out of him' is irrelevant. What they will focus on is what Bill and his son did to them, and at the time that they did it to them what the offender / victim was doing. ie you cant cut his finger off when he is lying on the ground and is no threat to you presently.

I agree. He is a bad little bastard and probably needs a beating administered to him. 

They have no sympathy from me, but the law isn't interested in right or wrong or sympathy. Its only interested in what the law states and case law. If they get convicted they may get some credit for what has occurred that night, but they probably going to get smashed. 

That seems to be happens to good people when things go bad. 

Bad aye. All this does is encourages people to take things into their own hands and not tell the Police.

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## HILLBILLYHUNTERS

> https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300...d-teen-burglar
> 
> 
> It appears these 'good citizens' intentionally cut the burglars finger off as part of 'rough justice'
> 
> If so, its clear you can't do that without being prosecuted IMO.


That also depends on what religion you belong to as wall . Some Eastern and South East Asian religions have got that part dead right .

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## Longrun

A quick thrashing with a hockey stick about the body in 'self defense' would suffice.

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## Longrun

> That also depends on what religion you belong to as wall . Some Eastern and South East Asian religions have got that part dead right .


maybe you should go and live in these countries?

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## Synthetic

"Everyone please don't try to defend yourself when someone invades your home and attacks you and your family. We need to ensure the rights and wellbeing of the offender are fully protected."

If the law doesn't give criminals what they deserve, then members of the public will be forced to take the law in their own hands. To be honest I'm very disappointed that only a finger was cut off.

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## Longrun

If you defend yourself by cutting someone's finger off while they present no threat then you'll be prosecuted.

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## Moa Hunter

> If you defend yourself by cutting someone's finger off while they present no threat then you'll be prosecuted.


I imagine the crim cut his own finger when laying on the knife. It's his balls that really needed removed

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## 300CALMAN

> If you defend yourself by cutting someone's finger off while they present no threat then you'll be prosecuted.


While they posses a knife with intent?

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## erniec

> I imagine the crim cut his own finger when laying on the knife. It's his balls that really needed removed


My thoughts too.


Sent from my SM-J530Y using Tapatalk

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## Longrun

> While they posses a knife with intent?


while they are already beaten and incapacitated.

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## 300CALMAN

> while they are already beaten and incapacitated.


Incapacitated would be with both arms broken

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## Moa Hunter

Truss him up and ph the Gimp, he's not Marcellas Wallace

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## Finnwolf

> while they are already beaten and incapacitated.


And deservedly so some might say!

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## unmodified

I doubt if any of this would have happened if 9 finger hadn't been on someone else's property trying to fuck them.
Seems like it was more or less self inflicted.
Hope they made 9 finger clean up the mess he apparently made,leaking body fluid in those poor people's house

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## Longrun

> And deservedly so some might say!


yes, a good thrashing in 'self defense' you could make a case for IF it would even be prosecuted.

What's happened here is quite another matter.  @unmodified do you mind describing how this was 'more or less self inflicted'

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## Tahr

Assuming that they did cut the brats finger off how many of you LFAO's think it was justified? And if it was justified, just what punitive action would _you_ actually stop at? 'Cos thats the acid test - how good is our self control and rationality under testing circumstances.

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## Longrun

I think some here watch too many action/retribution movies.
Fair enough if you're indulging in some flippant fantasy but if these are earnest sentiments....

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## 7mmwsm

> while they are already beaten and incapacitated.


According to who?
He openly stated in court  that he was intending to stab Bill.
Everyone else is stating he was "incapacitated".

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## 7mmwsm

> Assuming that they did cut the brats finger off how many of you LFAO's think it was justified? And if it was justified, just what punitive action would _you_ actually stop at? 'Cos thats the acid test - how good is our self control and rationality under testing circumstances.


Tahr I doubt anyone who had just been through what Bill had been through in the previous hour would not want to get even and make the offender have a good think about doing such things again.

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## KeyMod

Everyone saying that use of force is justified as self defence under S48 Crimes Act needs to remember that its not a blanket "I can do what I want". 

"Every one is justified in using, in the defence of himself or herself or another, such force as, in the circumstances as he or she believes them to be, it is reasonable to use."

That force needs to be reasonable and proportionate to the threat that the person is defending themselves from IE if the offender is lying on the ground at gunpoint and beaten is it reasonable and proportionate to step forward and cut off his finger to defend myself? That act doesn't seem like something I'd do if I genuinely feared for my safety and isn't exactly a reasonable way of defending myself, particularly if I'm saying things like "it's so people know you're a thief" etc and filming it.

Since we all agree that some force during this incident was authorised by law that naturally leads us to S62 of the Crimes Act

"Every one authorised by law to use force is criminally responsible for any excess, according to the nature and quality of the act that constitutes the excess."

Based on the above it seems the appropriate place for this discussion is indeed the Court because it appears on the face of it that there is a case to be heard. What that outcome may be will be the Judge or Jurys call. As an aside I see the offender has already been charged with aggravated burglary and some other bits so is also being held to account under the law.

Remember that in these cases it's not what we may wish to see but what the law is. Like @Thar has mentioned LFAOs we more than most need to understand our obligations under the law and if we don't agree with them to vote accordingly for change, not decide to do as we may wish in the moment less we lose our license or end up in the dock ourselves.

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## Ftx325

Every one authorised by law to use force is criminally responsible for any excess, according to the nature and quality of the act that constitutes the excess.

so %50 of the police at the wellington protest should be in court then ....

In my opinion anyone who REPEATEDLY breaks in to a house , armed with a weapon - be it a knife or a wine bottle or both , assaults/beats the owner , threatens to kill them (and openly admits it in court)have VOLUNTARILY removed any rights they might have as a normal human being in a decent society and deserve everything they get ... with bells on .

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## KeyMod

> Every one authorised by law to use force is criminally responsible for any excess, according to the nature and quality of the act that constitutes the excess.
> 
> so %50 of the police at the wellington protest should be in court then ....
> 
> In my opinion anyone who REPEATEDLY breaks in to a house , armed with a weapon - be it a knife or a wine bottle or both , assaults/beats the owner , threatens to kill them (and openly admits it in court)have VOLUNTARILY removed any rights they might have as a normal human being in a decent society and deserve everything they get ... with bells on .


The problem there is that when our opinion differs from the law we end up in Court trying to defend those actions. And if there's no legal basis for our opinion we lose that defence. And rightly so, we all have differing opinions about all kinds of things. 

Example - Maybe I disagree with hunting and taking the lives of poor innocent deers. In my opinion I should be able to use force against the nasty hunters to save the lives of those deers. Legally not so much.

If we can't make that distinction between opinion and the law we can't really call ourselves LAFOs..

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## Ftx325

absolutely opinion and law often go in seperate directions . And yes as law abiding firearm owners we have to be very careful not to mix the two up .
But why does it seem that nowadays the criminals have more 'rights' than the victims ?
that is wrong in so many ways .

But I do wonder if the farmer will be facing firearms charges for threatening with a shotgun ....  
Again in my mind that was justified - they had just beaten him and threatened to kill him ....  
but does that qualify as reasonable force in the eyes of the police and judge ? And if not , why not , and then what is considered reasonable force in that situation when you have already been beaten and threatened with death ... ?

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## Longrun

> According to who?
> He openly stated in court  that he was intending to stab Bill.
> Everyone else is stating he was "incapacitated".


what generally happens before someone's finger is intentionally amputated?  Are they moving upon him with violent intent? 

They are generally subdued and presenting no threat.

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## Cigar

> But I do wonder if the farmer will be facing firearms charges for threatening with a shotgun ....  ?


He has already plead guilty to several firearms charges (including possession of a firearm without a license).

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## Ftx325

> He has already plead guilty to several firearms charges (including possession of a firearm without a license).


Ok , did not realize he was not licensed . 
What would the outcome be had he been licensed I still wonder ....

AS to the finger amputation , was he not lying on the knife waiting for a chance to stab the farmers , according to the news report , and as admitted in court ? Is that not why they cut the finger , for not moving his hand out from under him so visible or releasing the knife ?
 So not exactly what I would call subdued if that is the case .

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## KeyMod

> Ok , did not realize he was not licensed . 
> What would the outcome be had he been licensed I still wonder ....
> 
> AS to the finger amputation , was he not lying on the knife waiting for a chance to stab the farmers , according to the news report , and as admitted in court ? Is that not why they cut the finger , for not moving his hand out from under him so visible or releasing the knife ?
>  So not exactly what I would call subdued if that is the case .


If that was the case a better option wouldve been to continue maintaining cover on him with the shotty from a distance. Or kick him. Certainly not to get right up close and cut off a pinky with a butter knife.. AND even if that was the thinking saying things like its so people know hes a thief makes it kinda damning from an establishing intent point of view

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## 7mmwsm

> what generally happens before someone's finger is intentionally amputated?  Are they moving upon him with violent intent? 
> 
> They are generally subdued and presenting no threat.


He was not incapacitated. He was waiting to pounce.
Part of the problem here is, most of this information is coming from Stuff.

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## Tahr

If that is what actually happened, cutting his finger off with a butter knife was a stupid thing to do. Wasn't it?

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## Longrun

> He was not incapacitated. He was waiting to pounce.
> Part of the problem here is, most of this information is coming from Stuff.


If you say so. I will bet you $50 that he gets sentenced for it.

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## 7mmwsm

> If you say so. I will bet you $50 that he gets sentenced for it.


If you mean Bill will get sentenced for cutting his finger off, of course he will. I have never doubted that. And I have never stated his actions were justified.
The bit that pisses me off is fingerless will likely get portrayed as a victim again. He will give society the middle finger again. And he will continue down the same path.
Do some homework out side of stuff and see what started this string of events.

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## unmodified

You may well be right
Justice and "the law" do seem to be on divergent paths

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## Cordite

> It does seem that every time the victim apprehends the criminal the Police charge the victim. Some would consider that it is best to just deal with the situation and not ph Police


Not feasible af all. He had brought his mobile phone and as such his movements to the farm could and would get traced.  Only way to clean his DNA from the house would be to burn it down really well. And maybe feasible to bury bodies and a car on a farm, but pure fantasy to imagine you'd get away with that once someone comes looking.

Farmer Brown would ironically be in less trouble if he'd let this 140kg gang member get up with the knife and then shot him.  But when people are frightened and out of their depth they do stupid things instead.  I guess the shottie was unloaded.

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## Ftx325

victims in this type of situation should be able to fight back without consequence to themselves . We and the crims all know when left to the courts the guy is just going to be out on the streets again in short order , or at home , with no real consequence to his actions .
I am not saying that we can all start torturing anyone who crosses the gate and chopping off body parts , but the last thing I would want to be worried about in that situation would be trying to decide if I can legally defend myself without facing a trial myself on charges for something that was instigated by the criminal breaking in , on my own property in my own house in defence of myself/family and possessions . 
Or in a high stress situation like that you may not get the chance to think with all the conflicting emotions and threats upon you or your families person and may just react without thought , which would be understandable and possibly not within the exact wording of the law , which in itself is vague at best .
The victim is legally on the back foot from the get go .
 That is not how it should be . 
Why should the rights of the criminal come first as they appear to nowadays ? The crim is the one in the wrong , not the victim . If the victim is able to turn the tide on the crim it always seems to be the victim also ends up on charges as mentioned earlier . That is wrong . I guess you could use the excuse of being abused as a child to get off like all these retards seem to do ....
Again , as I mentioned before , I wonder if the farmer would have still faced firearm charges if he was licensed ? Even though a trigger was not pulled ... 

I for one believe my home is my castle , as the old adage goes , and would be prepared to do whatever it takes to defend it and those within it's walls .

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## Longrun

> If you mean Bill will get sentenced for cutting his finger off, of course he will. I have never doubted that. And I have never stated his actions were justified.
> The bit that pisses me off is fingerless will likely get portrayed as a victim again. He will give society the middle finger again. And he will continue down the same path.
> Do some homework out side of stuff and see what started this string of events.


???

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## 7mmwsm

> ???


I presume something is confusing you.

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## Ross Nolan

> while they are already beaten and incapacitated.


You read his comment in court when he said if he could have stood up he would have stabbed the Burrs, right?

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## Ross Nolan

I expect there is an additional layer, given he drove from Auckland 3 times to rob the same farm - there wasn't anywhere in the middle worth a look?
Something smells a little.

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## Moa Hunter

I think the moral of the finger story ( presumably it was the middle finger rendered inoperable ) is not to cut them off as per Old Testament, but to use a rubber hammer on the hand and possibly head as well until the crim is compliant ?

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## Longrun

> You read his comment in court when he said if he could have stood up he would have stabbed the Burrs, right?


fair enough. Maybe the pair of them can do a u tube video on how to effectively disarm someone with a knife lol

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## XR500

> If you mean Bill will get sentenced for cutting his finger off, of course he will. I have never doubted that. And I have never stated his actions were justified.
> The bit that pisses me off is fingerless will likely get portrayed as a victim again. He will give society the middle finger again. And he will continue down the same path.
> Do some homework out side of stuff and see what started this string of events.


I think you will find that fingerless is already in klink for other shite he has done

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## Moa Hunter

> fair enough. Maybe the pair of them can do a u tube video on how to effectively disarm someone with a knife lol


Disarming, finger by finger ?

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## XR500

Here's a bit more of the story: More and more its painting a picture of a 150kg out of control phsyco with a vendatta.. I reckon anything you can do to stop being killed by such an animal goes.

As the saying goes: better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/piopio...V4V3ZZZJC2R5M/

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## Longrun

> Disarming, finger by finger ?


Maybe eh?

Forcing the shoulder or putting your thumbs under his jaw or in his ears maybe?

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## Synthetic

> have VOLUNTARILY removed any rights they might have as a normal human being in a decent society and deserve everything they get ... with bells on .


I couldn't have said it any better. They do not deserve to be treated as normal human beings because that's exactly what they chose themselves.

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## Synthetic

> Why should the rights of the criminal come first as they appear to nowadays ?


This is what pisses me off big time.
If someone invades my father's house and attacks him, I will be removing A LOT MORE than just a finger.

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## Tankd

> Maybe eh?
> 
> Forcing the shoulder or putting your thumbs under his jaw or in his ears maybe?


You don't understand the idiot they where dealing with . To get to do what you have said means you have to get in close and in range of his knife . Add to that,that type of person would probably just ignore any pain as the knife or the threat of it was his only chance of escape.
     Fingers is not a normal person and only has one thought , Himself.

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## Cordite

> He has already plead guilty to several firearms charges (including possession of a firearm without a license).


Unlicensed firearm owner?!?  Sweet, so they can't take his FAL off him, and also he'll not do jail time. 

Also, gang members wishing to do a revenge invasion can't be quite certain he hasn't rearmed.

I know, it's f*cked up to say this, but isn't it reality?

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## Moa Hunter

> This is what pisses me off big time.
> If someone invades my father's house and attacks him, I will be removing A LOT MORE than just a finger.


Any home invading crims today should be aware that they will be mistaken for Ducks !

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## Longrun

> You don't understand the idiot they where dealing with . To get to do what you have said means you have to get in close and in range of his knife . Add to that,that type of person would probably just ignore any pain as the knife or the threat of it was his only chance of escape.
>      Fingers is not a normal person and only has one thought , Himself.


What range do you think the son was in when he was beating him and cutting his finger off?

Sounds like the fucker was beat, face down on the floor and covered by the dad with a shotgun.

In any event, its nothing to do with my life. I've shared my views in passing. This is the business of the courts.

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## 7mmwsm

> What range do you think the son was in when he was beating him and cutting his finger off?
> 
> Sounds like the fucker was beat, face down on the floor and covered by the dad with a shotgun.
> 
> In any event, its nothing to do with my life. I've shared my views in passing. This is the business of the courts.


Would you like to tell us why you appear to be so sympathetic toward this guy?
Even his own girlfriend stated he got what he deserved.
I don't entirely disagree with a lot of what you are saying. But if you do as I suggest and research this case, using a source other than stuff, or any media outlet for that matter, you will learn a lot about  this case.
Everyone knows Bill's middle name is contraversy. And as Tetawa mentioned, Bill flies a trump flag in his front paddock. Its highly unlikely someone with those views is going to get up and make you a cup of tea if you start bashing him around the head with a wine bottle at 1 am.

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## tiroahunta

Im thinking imagine the lawyers bill.

Dunno how Id react being woken up with a wine bottle over my head.most probably not too happy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## viper

I think the old boy showed remarkable self control . 3-4 home invasions by this piece of shit.  ( who by the way is on bail ) Wakes up not only to another home invasion but a repeated  unprovoked physical assault with a weapon at 1am.
The farmer has also seen a knife and has been threatened he will be stabbed . His wife and family now live somewhere else out of fear of this happening again.   
This whole scene could have ended very badly for the Farmer and to me this is a life threatening situation , he has every right to defend himself and end the event.

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## Cordite

That butter knife amputation though... bizarre. 
Putting spread on my toast will never be the same again.  And I'll be reading with keen interest once it's all out there.

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## 300CALMAN

> That butter knife amputation though... bizarre. 
> Putting spread on my toast will never be the same again.  And I'll be reading with keen interest once it's all out there.


I guess it's hardly a normal home invasion either, these guys kept coming back. I do wounder how some of the members here who are judging the finger cutter would feel about that? Maybe they would just cower in the corner...

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## Longrun

I'm ambivalent toward the finger cutter and co. I'm just stating the reasons why I think they will be sentenced.

Given the repeated nature I wonder myself what history/altercations have passed between the parties or associates involved.

As for cowering, I always own capable dogs and will make use of a hockey stick if need be. I'd be happier taking responsibility for that than pairing off someone a finger in retribution and gloating about it afterwards.

These are the choices these chaps made and if they're happy taking responsibility for that then all power to them.

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## Tahr

> I guess it's hardly a normal home invasion either, these guys kept coming back. I do wounder how some of the members here who are judging the finger cutter would feel about that? Maybe they would just cower in the corner...


Ive read through the thread and haven't seen anyone say the guy didn't have a right to defend himself. Of course he did. The law allows it and for some its a natural instinct.
The cowering in the corner snipe simply reflects a macho bullshit attitude. No one knows how they would react until they are in the situation.

But hammering a butter knife through a finger was truly bizarre.

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## jakewire

Even after many Googlings. The most puzzling part to me about everything in this thread, is...
What on earth "many of you LFAOs" means.

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## tiroahunta

> Even after many Googlings. The most puzzling part to me about everything in this thread, is...
> What on earth "many of you LFAOs" means.


The LFAOs bit is licensed fire arms owner


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Tahr

> Even after many Googlings. The most puzzling part to me about everything in this thread, is...
> What on earth "many of you LFAOs" means.


Licensed Fire Arm Owners. You know, rational and responsible people who ought to understand what a proportional response is  :Have A Nice Day:

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## viper

> Licensed Fire Arm Owners. You know, rational and responsible people who ought to understand what a proportional response is


And there is the whole crux of the matter " Proportional response " what will the law and this judge decide is a justified and allowable response to the situation under the law.

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## kidmac42

I've probably missed it somewhere, but, why did the perp keep making the journey to this guy's place time and time again. Did he have a chip about the old boy or just cos he appeared an easy target?

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## Moa Hunter

Faced with the same situation and gaining the upper hand by getting to a shotgun, I would have shot them both and worried about the consequences later.
I have asked several Police Officers over the years " Why dont Police aim to immobilize instead of aiming for centre mass"?  Ans - ' I am putting my life at risk when facing an armed ( Knife, club, Machete etc) wielding crim so I will shoot to kill. This is just a job and am going home to my family when I finish my shift'
I am sure that faced with the same situation - knife and bottle wielding nut job, the Police would have shot him and that would be that.

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## Cordite

Cops don't shoot to kill, they shoot to stop, which is centre-of-mass aim.  That's of course also shooting to kill, but only incidentally.  

Get this order right before you make any statement after such a situation, God forbid.

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## Cordite

> I've probably missed it somewhere, but, why did the perp keep making the journey to this guy's place time and time again. Did he have a chip about the old boy or just cos he appeared an easy target?


Yes. And the answer is pure terror.

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## Tahr

> Faced with the same situation and gaining the upper hand by getting to a shotgun, I would have shot them both and worried about the consequences later.
> I have asked several Police Officers over the years " Why dont Police aim to immobilize instead of aiming for centre mass"?  Ans - ' I am putting my life at risk when facing an armed ( Knife, club, Machete etc) wielding crim so I will shoot to kill. This is just a job and am going home to my family when I finish my shift'
> I am sure that faced with the same situation - knife and bottle wielding nut job, the Police would have shot him and that would be that.


Were is the logic in this? You would have shot them after gaining the upper hand because the Police can or do? Well, you sure would suffer the consequences.

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## Allizdog

As the saying goes "I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

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## Moa Hunter

> Were is the logic in this? You would have shot them after gaining the upper hand because the Police can or do? Well, you sure would suffer the consequences.


No not because the Police can or do do it. However the Police logic and training is to protect themselves whilst a threat still exists. They have training in these situations and we dont. The Police have examined how these situations play out and how to best handle them.
The crim still had a knife which he had not surrendered and would kill the farmer the instant positions were reversed which may well have happened had the crims mates (who had dropped him off) re-appeared. In that situation the farmer would certainly have lost his life.
What I am wishing to express is, that although I am not at all a violent person, if faced with a situation such as the farmer did with being attacked and traumatised, a bottle smashed over my head and told that I would be killed if I didn't hand over my keys, I know that I would be that wound-up and agro as well as protective of my family that I would shoot them as soon as I got the shotty. It is not a situation any of us who have not been in the services could handle rationally. If you yourself shot an intruder after that type of episode I would not think less of or judge you for it. In fact I am sure that most of us would shoot in the same situation - but then I also have a Trump sticker on display ... !

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## 300CALMAN

A knife is a very fast and lethal weapon at close range. Even if you have a gun in hand, a retained knife is very much a threat. God forbid I would have to face such a situation but in training I have definitely seen it demonstrated.

There's no question the butter knife thing is strange, but who knows, the truth will either come out in court or it will remain known only to those who were there.

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## Ross Nolan

It's not impossible that one or both parties in court could be lying about the events of the night either.
That does happen occasionally, and it isn't unheard of for the Herald to misrepirt it either.

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## Ross Nolan

Should have proof read. Try misrepresent or misreport, either would do.

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## Bill999

> It's not impossible that one or both parties in court could be lying about the events of the night either.
> That does happen occasionally, and it isn't unheard of for the Herald to misrepirt it either.


yeah theres usually three versions of a story
the "defender turned attacker" trying to justifying loosing his mind after bieng attacked in his bed by multiple attackers
the attacker turned "victim" 

and then there is the truth and the truth you can prove

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## paremata

not guilty    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300...und-not-guilty

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## Nathan F

Common sense has prevailed I see

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## Got-ya

There is hope for NZ yet.

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## nevereadyfreddy

> not guilty    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300...und-not-guilty


How bizarre how bizarre

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## Rushy

What a great result.

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## erniec

> How bizarre how bizarre


My thoughts too.
As it was reported the stranger it got.

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## XR500

Listening to the guidance the judge gave the jury before they retired I am fairly sure he was gunning for a Not Guilty verdict too.

Its all nice and rational to pick to pieces a situation like this from the comfort of your laptop at 7pm.

But get woken at 1am by someone smashing you over the head with a wine bottle, and threatening to kill you, and rationality can go out the window and survival should hopefully kick in.

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## 7mmwsm

The Burrs will likely have to foot the bill for all their costs.
The crown will likely pay all fingerless's and ACC will shell out for his finger.

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## Moa Hunter

> The Burrs will likely have to foot the bill for all their costs.
> The crown will likely pay all fingerless's and ACC will shell out for his finger.


The Burrs likely wont have to buy any rounds at the local for a considerable period though

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## Cigar

It would be interesting to see what sentence Snr gets for the firearms charges (dunno if he's been sentenced already or still to come). The charges seemed to about the fact he had the shotgun, not how it was used (possession of a firearm without a licence, and two charges of unlawfully carrying a firearm).
If you go on the sentences given out to other unlicensed people (e.g. the guy who had 19 MSSA's and got 9m home detention), it shouldn't be more than a slap on the wrist and a warning.

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## Cordite

Someone injured during the course of committing a crime will have ACC pay for treatment and rehabilitation. It's a no-fault system.  The line is drawn at paying compensation.  Won't get a finger's worth.

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## Cordite

> It would be interesting to see what sentence Snr gets for the firearms charges (dunno if he's been sentenced already or still to come). The charges seemed to about the fact he had the shotgun, not how it was used (possession of a firearm without a licence, and two charges of unlawfully carrying a firearm).
> If you go on the sentences given out to other unlicensed people (e.g. the guy who had 19 MSSA's and got 9m home detention), it shouldn't be more than a slap on the wrist and a warning.


Yep. Will show everyone if him getting a FAL would have been worth his trouble. Watching too how any fine stacks up against the cost of FAL + gun safe.  The story continues....

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