# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  ARMS OFFICE NEWSLETTER WAIKATO DISTRICT

## Baz

FYI

ARMS OFFICE NEWSLETTER
WAIKATO DISTRICT



WINTER 2013


Greetings to all Waikato Firearms Dealers, Pistol Clubs, Gun Clubs, MSC groups, Deerstalkers Clubs and anyone with a Firearms Licence!!  

Once again it has been a long time since I flicked out the last newsletter, so I suppose that gives a fair indication as to how busy the office has been.

We are heading into a very busy period due to the 10 year Re-Licencing system, and are gearing up to hit the peak period which will see us being extremely flat out for the next 2 or 3 years. 

Closest to my heart are matters concerning gun safety in our part of the world, so here we go...... 


CHANGE OF ADDRESS

You are required by law to notify Police of your change of address within 30 days of moving. 

We get very annoyed when we find out that a burglary victim had guns stolen and that they had failed to notify us of their change of address (which enables us to get a Security Check done & verify that they have taken reasonable precautions against theft). Be aware that under such circumstances the licence holder could easily have their firearms licence Revoked, and in fact this usually does occur.  There is little sympathy for someone who has failed to meet their security obligations.

Under section 34 of The Arms Act 1983, 'Failure To Notify Change Of Address' is a punishable offence subject to a fine. 


MENTAL HEALTH

Every few weeks it is my very sad task to become involved with a person who has suffered a serious setback in their life, and mental health has become a major issue which in turn can affect their Firearms Licence.

A lot of people fail to advise us of issues until it is too late. Sometimes it can involve an elderly family member who is developing problems and starts to act aggressively and may even lead to threats of violence with firearms or unsafe shooting practises.

Sometimes a person may be involved in self-harm.

Such issues are extremely difficult to sort through and at times we are very dependant on family members helping to make the situation safe by quietly removing the guns from the home and ensuring that the Firearms Licence card is surrendered to us.

Ignoring this problem is not a good option. Please - do something about it before someone gets hurt. If you need advice, call me. 


CUSTOMS, D.O.C. AND FISH & GAME

This last year has seen the further growth of information passing from the above agencies to our office. This has enabled us to respond quicker to those that break the rules & regulations relating to importing and hunting, and we are getting onto such offenders sooner than in previous years.

Every incident is treated on a 'case by case' basis, but as a general rule those who are involved in minor infringements (eg hunting ducks without a permit) will receive a Warning Letter. Of course, the other government agency involved may still choose to prosecute and that is their decision. If the occurrences are serious or too regular then we may even look at Revoking their Firearms Licence      

Be aware too, that Police are taking a hard-line on poachers. A poaching gang operating in the vicinity of the Kaimai's was recently busted. These folks had effectively destroyed a deer-farmers livelihood. They have all been prosecuted in court and their Firearms Licences have been Revoked. 

There is zero-tolerance for poachers in the Waikato! 


DANGEROUS SHOOTERS

There is certainly a growing trend of city/town folk who move to life-style blocks and believe that they are "living in the country", and that it is acceptable to discharge their firearms on their property. BE AWARE THAT TO DO SO MAY BE AN OFFENCE!  

Please be aware of the following extract from the Arms Act 1983:

48: Discharging firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon in or near dwelling-house or public place
	Every person commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or to a fine not exceeding $3,000 or to both who, without reasonable cause, discharges a firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon in or near
	(a) a dwellinghouse; or
	(b) a public place,
so as to endanger property or to endanger, annoy, or frighten any person.

Note that it states "annoy or frighten", and that's enough to get a visit from the boys in blue, which then comes through to me, which then can very easily bounce back to you via a Notice of Consideration to Revoke a Firearms Licence.  

Although it's still early days, I have been made aware of only a small amount of incidents due to the recent duck hunting season. The main one which you may have read about in the papers is in regard to some shooters who used their power-boat to cruise the Waikato River within the boundaries of Hamilton City and shoot at some ducks! 



We are currently investigating this occurrence so I can not yet say what will happen. However, given the fact that Police received several calls from frightened locals including one from a person who felt the bird-shot swishing around his legs, then it is highly likely that charges could follow and Firearms Licences could be Revoked as a result.

Luckily no one was hurt!!! 

And there is still the odd person who believes that it is ok to go 'spotlighting' around DOC campsites. It is not. It never will be. There are no excuses. It is dangerous and it will not be tolerated.


PISTOL CLUBS

It's that time of year again folks, where I will soon need your club attendance list. Please send these to me as soon as possible for the 2012/2013 year.

It has come to my attention that some members may be getting 'signed in' but not are not actually attending. There is a huge amount of trust in place between Police, the Pistol Clubs and Pistol NZ. Let's not blow it folks - please ensure that this point is raised within your committee and that steps are in place to prevent this from occurring. 

'3 Gun' shooting is gaining in popularity. However this is relatively new to the Waikato clubs, and there has been a lot of confusion about what clubs can and can not do in this regard. In fairness this is due to some mis-information available in the internet, and also an honest lack of experience. 

If your club conducts MSSA style shooting events, please contact me and I can steer you down the right track. It is extremely easy to sacrifice safety for 'fun' at these events, and in accordance with Pistol NZ there are strict guidelines. 

Remember - one 'accident' and the results could be catastrophic not only for some poor person who may receive an unwanted hole in their body, but also for your club.  


ENDORSEMENT APPLICATIONS

We are getting an ever increasing amount of applications for endorsements. Sometimes for more than one endorsement at a time, and although this is not illegal we can't help but think that this is done mainly to save $$$$$, which is definitely not a suitable reason. Such multiple applications do make us somewhat doubtful as to the validity of the applications.  

It can be very difficult for a person to gain an endorsement, and there is a lot of work involved in processing such applications. If you do not meet the requirements, and we are very strict in this matter, then your application must be Refused. 

To be a Collector - you must be able to prove to us that you have a specific interest and evidence of being a collector (ie in other areas such as A Cat guns, militaria etc).

To get an E endorsement for an MSSA - you must provide good reason such as proof of being a professional 'culler', or of belonging to a club/organization that participates in regular shooting events with MSSA guns.

To get a B endorsement for a Pistol - you must be a current member of a Pistol Club.     

If you don't meet the criteria, don't bother applying. 


ARMS AMENDMENT ACT

Sorry folks - still waiting for this to go through the system.

Be prepared for the possibility that if you currently own an 'A Cat' MSSA style gun (eg AR15), once the Amendment becomes law then you will most likely have 3 options:

1.	Dispose of your gun - Give/sell your gun to a person with an E endorsement or a Dealer, or surrender it to Police.
2.	Apply for an E endorsement and list your gun as E. Bare in mind that you will have to install E Cat security, and most likely will have to pay for the endorsement application and prove good reasons as stated above.   
3.	Ensure that your gun does not fall into E Cat description. 

Be aware that until clear policy is given by Police National Headquarters (which will occur once the Act is passed) we are not really sure who will be affected and how exactly. The above options are just an idea to give you the 'heads up' and warn you out.



So that's all of my news for the next few months. As usual, I have been out and about visiting as many gun clubs and people as I can, and it's always great to meet those folks who really enjoy their shooting in a safe way. 

We are all extremely fortunate that there are so many different types of shooting available to us in this country - be it clay-target, hunting, target shooting, pistol & rifle clubs, western-action etc etc.

Get into a club, meet some fantastic people and learn from their experience. It's ok to learn from books, but real-time experience is like GOLD!!!    

Kindest regards from us all here at Firearms office, and I look forward to meeting you sometime soon.


Richard Plas
District Arms Officer
Waikato

Phone: 07 8586247
email:  richard.plas@police.govt.nz

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## Beavis

Wuh? It's always been considered normal to apply for all your endorsements at once to save money. Maybe they're getting pissy cuz they're losing out on it.

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## Digit

Interesting.
He's telling everyone not to bother attempting to get an E unless you are a culler or belong to club but on the other hand if you buy an A cat AR now you can get a free E. 

That might explain why so many ARs are selling at the moment. Great to have it confirmed from the horses mouth. Buy now or forever miss out!

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## Ryan

Such a crock of shit, creating a solution to address a problem that doesn't exist.

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## Survy

Just quoting the following....

To get an E endorsement for an MSSA - you must provide good reason such as proof of being a professional 'culler', or of belonging to a club/organization that participates in regular shooting events with MSSA guns.


You know surely if you are a fit and proper person, why can't you have one ( AR15 ) pass the increased security checks etc
Why can't one enjoy the experience of a MSSA firearm ?

Although I don't own a AR15 and  considering NOW you can get one no probs all good ( A cat ) the only thing that changes is the law
and next minute you can't have one.

It's sad but I think the boat has already sailed on this one.

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## ishoot10s

> Interesting.
> He's telling everyone not to bother attempting to get an E unless you are a culler or belong to club but on the other hand if you buy an A cat AR now you can get a free E.


No mate, no free lunch. He says "Bare in mind that you will have to install E Cat security, and *most likely will have to pay for the endorsement application and prove good reasons as stated above*"

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## Happy

> Interesting.
> He's telling everyone not to bother attempting to get an E unless you are a culler or belong to club but on the other hand if you buy an A cat AR now you can get a free E. 
> 
> That might explain why so many ARs are selling at the moment. Great to have it confirmed from the horses mouth. Buy now or forever miss out!


Umm Digit read it again that was not implied IMO

2.	Apply for an E endorsement and list your gun as E. Bare in mind that you will have to install E Cat security, and most likely will have to pay for the endorsement application and prove good reasons as stated above. 

Such as


To  get an E endorsement for an MSSA - you must provide good reason such as proof of being a professional 'culler', or of belonging to a club/organization that participates in regular shooting events with MSSA guns.

Read it again that does not sound like ..

Interesting.
He's telling everyone not to bother attempting to get an E unless you are a culler or belong to club but on the other hand if you buy an A cat AR now you can get a free E. 

That might explain why so many ARs are selling at the moment. Great to have it confirmed from the horses mouth. Buy now or forever miss out!   

Where's the statement about free E ???

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## Digit

You're right, I didn't read it correctly. I was basing my interpretations on the previous thumb hole stock debacle.

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## Maca49

Might be easier on a C licence, then you can get some really good gear?

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## Happy

> You're right, I didn't read it correctly. I was basing my interpretations on the previous thumb hole stock debacle.


Roger that and don't worry I had hoped you were right and I was wrong 

Cheers Happy

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## ishoot10s

> Might be easier on a C licence, then you can get some really good gear?


But you can't use any of it...

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## National Shooters Assoc

THE FOLLOWING LETTER HAS BEEN SENT TO WAIKATO ARMS OFFICE


Dear Richard

We have recently had drawn to our attention a newsletter published by the Waikato Arms Office. It appears to follow a recent trend of police trying to "extend the provisions of the Arms Act" which is a matter that your superiors at PNHQ now formally deny (via crown law.)

You have said in that newsletter: "To get an E endorsement for an MSSA - you must provide good reason such as proof of being a professional 'culler', or of belonging to a club/organization that participates in regular shooting events with MSSA guns."

We should like to point out that to obtain an endorsement permitting possession of an MSSA the applicant for the endorsement needs to be considered "fit and proper."  There are no criteria set down in the Act for the fit and proper test. There is no legislative authority for police to prescribe what amounts to a lawful, sufficient and proper reason and therefore, by proxy, a fit and proper criteria. In the Hansard from 1992, the Minister of Police citied that "bona fide hunters" (without any further qualification) were considered to be eligible to possess MSSAs.  It is further noted that police do not have legislative authority to over-ride s50 of the Arms Act. A person who possesses a MSSA is entitled to do so for any lawful, sufficient and proper reason. Such a reason is a matter of law; not a matter of police opinion. It is not unlawful for any person to use an MSSA in any situation where he or she might otherwise use a non-endorsable firearm. It is also noted that police are not entitled to impose blanket policies circumscribing their discretion under s30B of the Arms Act (see PSI v COP 1992.)

We also find your complaining about multiple endorsements to be somewhat odd. It is clearly contemplated in the fees schedule of the Arms Regulations that a person may apply for multiple endorsements. We believe that the confusion arises due to the flawed police system of issuing 'alphabetic category endorsements' ; we take this opportunity to clarify:

There is no such thing as an alphabetic endorsement; an endorsement relates to a gun; not a letter of the alphabet.
There is no fee for an endorsement - the fee is for the application.
The application relates to one or more specific firearms (which attract an endorsement) on the basis of the firearms legal category: i.e pistol, RW, MSSA.
So for example a person who wants to possess three pistols and four MSSAs would apply for: 
3 pistol endorsements @$200
4 MSSA endorsements @200
Total $400.00

Once you understand the scheme of the Arms Act (as opposed to the scheme of the police alphabet) your complaints about multiple endorsement applications ought to be soothed.

Would you be good enough to publish a correction to your newsletter; that will mean that NSA will not have to escalate the matter further.

Kind Regards
National Shooters Association

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## Ryan

OK, before anybody says anything - please don't let this thread descend into a volley of name calling, accusations and general abuse.

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## Happy

> OK, before anybody says anything - please don't let this thread descend into a volley of name calling, accusations and general abuse.


  + 1 BUT  Reasonable response to the first post though I must say when I saw the must be a culler or club member I was surprised... Lets play nicely ...

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## steven

> Might be easier on a C licence, then you can get some really good gear?


Except you cant shoot it on a C? or take it out of your house without telling the police first and why? at least that's my understanding of a C.

regards

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## Scouser

"Would you be good enough to publish a correction to your newsletter; that will mean that NSA will not have to escalate the matter further."

Sweet reply......as in 'thumb hole stocks', the police 'do not' make the law, their job is to enforce it.......im starting to dig my trench now!!!!!!!

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## steven

I think the police are in between a rock and a hard place. I mean to me in some ways getting a cat e cause its shinny and pretty and goes bang bang fast, seems sufficient....

 :Thumbsup: 

Un-fortunately many other in-secure ppl seem to fill their underpants if they see you with a long black case let alone the actual gun.......yet I and most everyone else in here has undergone a police check to prove Im a fit and proper to hold and use one.  

I really wonder if its a case of over-sensitivity...

Of course sooner or later we'll see an incident and the Pollies and then the police will cop it and then we will

 :Sad: 

regards

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## veitnamcam

When i read the opening post i thought well there goes any chance of me ever having a rattle gun.(because there is no way i could attend enough club shoots same as pistols)

But there is hope it would seem 

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Savage1

> THE FOLLOWING LETTER HAS BEEN SENT TO WAIKATO ARMS OFFICE
> 
> 
> Dear Richard
> 
> We have recently had drawn to our attention a newsletter published by the Waikato Arms Office. It appears to follow a recent trend of police trying to "extend the provisions of the Arms Act" which is a matter that your superiors at PNHQ now formally deny (via crown law.)
> 
> You have said in that newsletter: "To get an E endorsement for an MSSA - you must provide good reason such as proof of being a professional 'culler', or of belonging to a club/organization that participates in regular shooting events with MSSA guns."
> 
> ...


The Police are the ones that administer that Arms Act, So if the definition of fit and proper isn't defined in legislation or defined in case law then what do you expect the Police to do? It is in fact in the legislation that it is up to the opinion of a commissioned Officer in the Police to decide whether a person is fit and proper to be issued a licence, so common sense would say that this applies to any endorsement within that licence.

Are you implying that nobody needs a licence to possess a firearm if it's for hunting or sports shooting? Or is that not a lawful? Are you saying that a normal FAL allows me to use MSSAs for shooting tin cans because I can lawfully use a A Cat firearm for it? So I can lawfully possess a E Cat firearm?! From what you're implying a FAL wouldn't be needed by anyone.

Police administer the Arms Act so it is up to their opinion, when not stated in law, whether it is lawful or not but the judge has the final say, if Police couldn't use their opinion then how much of the many acts (Crimes, Misuse of Drugs etc) could they really enforce?!

Stop playing word games with the Arms Act, some of those points are just silly.

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## Happy

The main point to me was the bit about being a club member or providing proof of being a professional culler.. The reply was correct to state that those two bits there are not in 
any documentation. So that's someone's personal spin on it. To also say if you cant meet those requirements don't bother applying well that hardly a how can we help you today welcome is it ?
You can gain E Cat if you meet the security requirements, the fit and proper person requirements etc. You don't have to be a club member or professional culler at all.

I m happy someone is trying to clear that bit up as its fairly important.. I was starting to think Hmmmm well this is getting harder by the minute same as VC...

Misinterpretation can cost people their rights , things need to be clear and cut and dried.

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## Survy

Happy, I kinda looked sideways at the point of being a pro culler too, I guess this is a letter from one arms officer in one part of the country ( as possibly their view spun into it. )
But reading other people's comments the arms act in itself hasn't changed ( yet )

What would be neat, is if the police website in their firearms category had a Q & A section where we as joe blogs can submit a question or seek clarification and get a "National Response" so there is no confusion.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I can see people's point buy an A class today all legit then next day it's an E and your behind the ball.

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## Sidney

> The Police are the ones that administer that Arms Act, So if the definition of fit and proper isn't defined in legislation or defined in case law then what do you expect the Police to do? It is in fact in the legislation that it is up to the opinion of a commissioned Officer in the Police to decide whether a person is fit and proper to be issued a licence, so common sense would say that this applies to any endorsement within that licence.
> 
> Are you implying that nobody needs a licence to possess a firearm if it's for hunting or sports shooting? Or is that not a lawful? Are you saying that a normal FAL allows me to use MSSAs for shooting tin cans because I can lawfully use a A Cat firearm for it? So I can lawfully possess a E Cat firearm?! From what you're implying a FAL wouldn't be needed by anyone.
> 
> Police administer the Arms Act so it is up to their opinion, when not stated in law, whether it is lawful or not but the judge has the final say, if Police couldn't use their opinion then how much of the many acts (Crimes, Misuse of Drugs etc) could they really enforce?!
> 
> Stop playing word games with the Arms Act, some of those points are just silly.


The police will interpret the law to suit themselves... the only defence we have to that is to challenge it.  That takes the form of an appeal directly to the police pointing out the law, which is created for us as well not just for them... and failing common sense being used in interpretation by them, directing that challenge to the court for decision binding on the police.

What sort of bullshit is the term "word games".... the law is all about words and their interpretation... we have the protection of the law and are entitled to insist that the police comply with the words of the law... a disagreement as to the meaning is settled by the court if it needs to get that far...

Compliance with any officials interpretation of the law without question, does not mean that you are complying with the law, and it certainly does not mean that they are....

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## ebf

For the record, user *National Shooters Assoc* are you Richard Lincoln, or is this user someone else representing the NSA ?

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## Happy

Me off to Aussie now be interesting to see how downhill this goes in a week or so he he The response from NSA was ok IMO anyway possibly a bit long but Ok 

Cheers. Happy

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## 300winmag

> For the record, user *National Shooters Assoc* are you Richard Lincoln, or is this user someone else representing the NSA ?


ebf - Please read Ryan's post above.

NSA's post above is bloody helpful for people with "A" cat semi's like myself and the thousands of others in this boat, put it bluntly if it wasn't for them we wouldn't be enjoying using them.

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## ebf

300winmag, Ryan's post asked people to "please don't let this thread descend into a volley of name calling, accusations and general abuse."

I am trying to establish in the user "National Shooters Assoc" is in fact Richard Lincoln or not. He has previously been banned from this forum for abusive behaviour under the username "krewzr". If it is Richard, then I am quite happy for him to join under such a public username, since whatever he says will be linked directly to his "organisation"  :Wink:

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## Sidney

Thats crap... you don't need to raise the issue if you follow your own logic...

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## ebf

> It is our understanding that the police executive agrees with us that police may not prescribe lawful sufficient and proper purposes to use firearms (including MSSAs) and refuse endorsements when the applicant's reasons for wanting a firearm fall outside that prescription.


Interesting statement this... wonder if the police executive would agree that that they agree with the NSA  :Grin:  Maybe best left for them to comment rather than putting words in their mouth ?

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## Sidney

Why don't you stop shit stirring...

You might not agree with everything the likes of the NSA stand for ... but frankly when people from the roughly the same side of an issue, want to continually chip away at others who actually try to do something about the likes of the police over-extending their authority.... then frankly you are just wrong..

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## 300winmag

Well he's not about to put his hand up is he, especially after all the other crap that went on.
Anyway I guess if a letter bearing the NSA letterhead gets sent to the coppers the Brains Trust will know about it of which he would be a member.
It's very well written and seems to be factually correct.

As an aside I was in the Manukau Arms office the other day getting an import permit sorted when I popped the question about getting an "E" 
The Arms Officer couldn't have been more helpful, seemed bloody easy to get but I might have been a tad to trusting, I'll wait and see what comes out of the NSA's legal stoush. The import permit was sorted on the spot, walked out 5mins later happy as Larry.

I loved his posts on both sites but shit there's some uptight gun owners out there. :Grin:  :Grin:

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## ebf

Sydney, mate - I think you read WAAAY too much into my posts  :Grin: 

Why don't we wait and see if there are some clear, no bullshit responses, or if it is going to be the same clever wording and legal semantics right ?

We live in a democracy. People are entitled to their views, and we have the luxury of deciding if we agree with them or not. Personally, I place a high value on the character of the people behind an organisation, and the tactics they choose to employ...

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## Sidney

So clearly I misunderstood ... your weren't shit stirring after all...   :Grin: 

I understand that you have a problem with people being clever... and you clearly have no understanding that legal issues are ALL about semantics..... if you can't cope with either cleverness or legal semetics... this may not be the debate for you...  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## R93

Back on topic a bit. ( Cheeky of me :Grin: ) We moved not long ago and of course had my security checked. I was here in Oz when it was done but the copper asked my wife to ask me, if I wanted to keep my E endorsment. (I dont own any E cat firearms at the moment)
It costs nothing to keep it so I am curious as to why he would ask if I wanted to remain endorsed. I needed it for my previous job and will no doubt need it again when I go back to it.

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## Maca49

Interesting R93, he shouldn't even discuss that with your wife, I'd be pissed as I see that as a sly way to have it surrendered

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## Dougie

Yeah, weird? Why would they ask that?

I'm in no way up to speed with all of this NSA vs the people or whatever the heck it is, but I am genuinely bummed that unless I get a job as a culler, I won't be able to get an E cat any time soon?  (I won lotto, you see  :Wink:  )

Why am I fit and proper enough to own a bolt action and kill things slowly but not fit and properererererr enough to get a cool MSSA? Will suddenly owning an AR15 mean I will grow an urge to gun down an entire high school? I don't quite understand the logic.

Apologies if that isn't really what all of this is about.  :ORLY:  Please help me out  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Beavis

I think it is policy to revoke endorsements if you cannot demonstrate an immediate need for it

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## Maca49

Your attachment to the army makes you a professional culler Dougie

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## Maca49

> I think it is policy to revoke endorsements if you cannot demonstrate an immediate need for it


I think your right, there seems to be an underlying intention to reduce licences or downgrade cats.

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## Dougie

> I think it is policy to revoke endorsements if you cannot demonstrate an immediate need for it


Rogee gotcha, thanks

EDIT - PS that sucks..

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## Rushy

There is an absurdity to the approach being taken.  If you had your class 4 drivers license but no longer made a living driving long haul you wouldn't be asked if you still wanted to have the class 4 endorsement just because you advised of a change to a new address.

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## gimp

The entire premise of the system is basically stupid so don't be surprised that the details are too

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## AzumitH

If I wake up one day and any of my A-Cat rifles have become E-Cat, my jim jams will be officially flim flammed.  Even more so if I am faced with any of the options put forward in that letter.

Interestingly, I'd wager that's the same arms officer that told my mate that the bullpup SKS stock he wanted (which is the most space-aged baby-killing E-Cat looking thing ever) was "awesome, really good to use, definitely A-cat".

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## ebf

> I'm in no way up to speed with all of this NSA vs the people or whatever the heck it is, but I am genuinely bummed that unless I get a job as a culler, I won't be able to get an E cat any time soon?  (I won lotto, you see  )


Dougie, culling is not the only acceptable route to get E cat. As per the original letter that started this thread:

_To get an E endorsement for an MSSA - you must provide good reason such as proof of being a professional 'culler', or of belonging to a club/organization that participates in regular shooting events with MSSA guns._

Pretty much the exact same regime that has been used for pistols for several years now...

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## veitnamcam

> Dougie, culling is not the only acceptable route to get E cat. As per the original letter that started this thread:
> 
> _To get an E endorsement for an MSSA - you must provide good reason such as proof of being a professional 'culler', or of belonging to a club/organization that participates in regular shooting events with MSSA guns._
> 
> *Pretty much the exact same regime that has been used for pistols for several years now..*.




Which makes it impossible for most people to obtain. There is no way I could get the time/money to attend a club shoot minimum 12 times a year.
If pistols are not relegated to museums by the time the kids leave home I might get there then.
If I wanted to shoot bunnys/goats/deer etc with a mssa(which is not illegal unlike pistols) why should I have to attend club shoots I may not even enjoy just to own it?

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## mikee

> Which makes it impossible for most people to obtain. There is no way I could get the time/money to attend a club shoot minimum 12 times a year.
> If pistols are not relegated to museums by the time the kids leave home I might get there then.
> If I wanted to shoot bunnys/goats/deer etc with a mssa(which is not illegal unlike pistols) why should I have to attend club shoots I may not even enjoy just to own it?


You don't, after the last fiasco they had to accept hunting as a legit reason however much they hated it (well for a while). Once you have your E there are no mandatory club shoots to attend as far as I am aware.
Had my E for 15 years.

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## veitnamcam

> You don't, after the last fiasco they had to accept hunting as a legit reason however much they hated it (well for a while). Once you have your E there are no mandatory club shoots to attend as far as I am aware.
> Had my E for 15 years.


From the opening post.

"To get an E endorsement for an MSSA - you must provide good reason such as proof of being a professional 'culler', or of belonging to a club/organization that participates in regular shooting events with MSSA guns."

This shows that in this region at least it would be exceptionally hard (ie impossible for the foreseeable future)for me to fitt there description of fit and proper.

How long untill all regions are like this?

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## mikee

This is the problem with a lot of AO's they "interpret" the regulations themselves.  VC if you want to do it I would be more than happy to be a referee for ya, We allow "associate" members to join the club at a reduced fee if they want to shoot in "service rifle type" events.  His comments in the article are misleading. pistol NZ only looks after IPSC and IPSC 3 gun events run by its members it has nothing to do at all with similar events run by others.

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## Dougie

Sorry *mikee*, "*had*" your E? You don't anymore? Why is that if you mind me asking? Was it because it was revoked or asked to be revoked because you weren't hitting up a club or knocking over goats and being paid for it? Just interested, not trying to be rude.

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## gimp

He has had and still has it, I assume

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## Maca49

I cannot see why I cannot just own an E cat firearm just because I enjoy them for what they are. Needing any other reason seems wrong if I am a fit and proper person to have a FAL. It's seems to bring in double standards. Same with pistols, would love to shoot pistol again, I have the chance to go with someone every week and shoot theirs, I also enjoy the mechanics and the work of art of a lot of firearms, especially old English shotguns and double guns. But the hassles of a B & E are too much for me. A C wouldn't work either as some times I like to put lead down the barrel, makes you feel like your a criminal or maybe becoming one.

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## veitnamcam

Cheers Mikee.
One day I will get there.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Col.Whiplash

I had my security visit last weekend and all of the serials are now recorded - even though I don't have any E types.  In Wellington they only check E cat security it would appear.

It would be good for a political party to push for a independent authority to administrate firearms instead of the useless Police bureaucrats and then I would know who to vote for next.

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## mikee

> Sorry *mikee*, "*had*" your E? You don't anymore? Why is that if you mind me asking? Was it because it was revoked or asked to be revoked because you weren't hitting up a club or knocking over goats and being paid for it? Just interested, not trying to be rude.


Sorry Dougie my bad gramma, I have had and still hold my E endorsement, won't be giving it up anytime soon either

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## P38

> I think your right, there seems to be an underlying intention to reduce licences or downgrade cats.


I agree Maca.

Surrender by stealth.

I've had an E endorsement since they were invented and every relicencing since then I have been asked in a subtle way to surrender it along with my C. 
The conversation usually goes along the lines of "I dont appear to be using these endorsements much so don't really need them do I" with comments like it's "Something to consider" then you won't have to have higher security costs or you could sell those firearms for a good price and use the money for a holiday or something etc.

The inspectors around here are all ex detectives and are all quite good but they also know what they're doing when they ask these questions, they may catch you at a weak moment or even sway your better judgement on the spur of the moment and with one stroke of their pen your endorsement/s, your legal right if judged a fit and proper person, is gone.... maybe for good.

My standard response is "No thanks I'll be keeping these" end of story.

I have also been asked each time to supply a list of all my non endorsed firearms for Police to hold on my behalf for "Insurance purposes" which I believe is just another way of obtaining information by stealth that the Police are not currently entitled to.
I always politely decline by saying my insuranced company already has this information.

Cheers
Pete

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## Beavis

> I agree Maca.
> 
> Surrender by stealth.
> 
> I've had an E endorsement since they were invented and every relicencing since then I have been asked in a subtle way to surrender it along with my C. 
> The conversation usually goes along the lines of "I dont appear to be using these endorsements much so don't really need them do I" with comments like it's "Something to consider" then you won't have to have higher security costs or you could sell those firearms for a good price and use the money for a holiday or something etc.
> 
> The inspectors around here are all ex detectives and are all quite good but they also know what they're doing when they ask these questions, they may catch you at a weak moment or even sway your better judgement on the spur of the moment and with one stroke of their pen your endorsement/s, your legal right if judged a fit and proper person, is gone.... maybe for good.
> 
> ...


That just makes me pissed. Why not be straight up with somebody than beat around the bush with clever wording. Interviewing you like you're a criminal, great. My AO has voiced his distaste for semi autos to me, but at least he is straight up and knows what he is an is not able to do under the law. He's great to deal with. I really feel for you guys who have to put up with all the bullshit from vetting officers and AO's who just can't keep their beak out of your rightful business.

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## Maca49

> I had my security visit last weekend and all of the serials are now recorded - even though I don't have any E types.  In Wellington they only check E cat security it would appear.
> 
> It would be good for a political party to push for a independent authority to administrate firearms instead of the useless Police bureaucrats and then I would know who to vote for next.


Nows that's a brilliant idea and this forum could become that authority? You wouldn't find any party better equipped and with more knowledge!
Colonel I vote you president of the board!

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## Maca49

> That just makes me pissed. Why not be straight up with somebody than beat around the bush with clever wording. Interviewing you like you're a criminal, great. My AO has voiced his distaste for semi autos to me, but at least he is straight up and knows what he is an is not able to do under the law. He's great to deal with. I really feel for you guys who have to put up with all the bullshit from vetting officers and AO's who just can't keep their beak out of your rightful business.


They way to really stuff them up would be for everyone on this forum to apply for a C cat, problem would be cost, but if I did apply I don't see how it could be refused based on my life long interest alone. I'll think about that.

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## gimp

The system is used to intimidate law abiding firearms owners away from doing things we're legally entitled to do. We're made to feel like criminals for wanting things we're legally entitled to own and discouraged from perfectly legal and honest actions like applying for import permits or mail order forms.

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## The Jackel

Well looks like there will be over 250,000.00 registered  NZ cullers businesses soon.  :Have A Nice Day:  

Problem solved  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Baz

Like it or not, its all in black and white.......... (until it changes....???)

Cut and paste from: Arms Code Section 3: Understanding firearms | New Zealand Police

Military-style semi-automatics (MSSAs)
MSSAs are used for hunting, pest control, and target shooting. The reason for which the endorsement is sought becomes a condition of granting the endorsement. This means that you must obtain Police approval for each activity you wish to undertake with your MSSA.

MSSAs may only be used by a person who holds an E endorsement, and only if they have obtained from the Arms Officer a permit to procure the MSSA they wish to use.

Cut and paste from: Arms Code Section 4: Firearms Licensing | New Zealand Police

B Endorsement (29(2)(a) Arms Act 1983) 
Target Shooting Pistol Club Members This allows the holder to possess and use pistols as a
member of an incorporated pistol club recognised by the Commissioner of Police. Pistols may only be used on a range approved by the Commissioner of Police.

E Endorsement (30( b) Arms Act 1983)
Military-style semi-automatics

This is required for people to have military style semi-automatic rifles and shotguns. MSSAs can only be used by people with an E endorsement. An MSSA cannot be used under supervision. No one may use an MSSA without this endorsement.

Revocation
A licence may be revoked as a result of irresponsible behaviour with firearms.
Your firearms licence or endorsements can be revoked by a Commissioned Officer of the Police if you act in such a way that indicates you are no longer a fit and proper person to be in possession of a firearm.

Domestic violence
Police may seize firearms and consider revocation of a persons firearms licence if that person is thought to be involved in family (domestic) violence.

A protection order issued under the Domestic Violence Act automatically revokes a firearms licence. If you wish to keep owning or using firearms when a protection order applies to you, you must ask the Court to allow you to keep your licence. This is usually done by responding to the notice sent to you by the Court when the order is first taken out.

It is an offence to be in possession of firearms or airguns after your firearms licence has been revoked.

Licence expiry
A firearms licence expires after 10 years. You should apply for a new licence, or surrender your current one, before it expires. Once a licence expires it costs much more to obtain another one. (This higher fee reflects the actual cost of issuing a licence.)

The application is for a new licence. Full vetting is carried out by Police. Security will be inspected. Police will ask how many firearms you possess so as to ensure that the security they inspect is adequate.

Endorsements
Any endorsements attached to your firearms licence continues if you apply for a new licence before the current one expires. Otherwise the endorsements expire with the licence and an additional fee is required to apply for any new endorsement(s). When you apply to renew your licence you will be required to justify continuing to hold the endorsement.

This is the requirements by law for any endorsement, you sign your life away to abide by when getting your endorsement:http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/services/firearms/safe-storage-requirements-for-endorsements-pol67n.pdf

I thought I had a copy of the E application form. It does state you must prove you have known your referees for at least .... years. Your referees must be people involved in the firearms industry or a club who can prove you are a fit an proper person. 

I will look harder and see if I can get a copy of what is written on the form.

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## Survy

So in short,

 I want and AR15.....
AO : ok sir and your reason...?...
I hunt rabbits....

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## gimp

> So in short,
> 
>  I want and AR15.....
> AO : ok sir and your reason...?...
> I hunt rabbits....



I'm doing this very shortly, I'll let you know how it goes.

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## Maca49

I want a pistol, for what purpose? To shoot paper and cuddle every now and then?

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## Toby

> I want a pistol, for what purpose? To shoot paper and cuddle every now and then?


I reckon that's gay as. I would like to hunt with a pistol but since you can't I reckon its a waste of time getting a licence for one.

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## Maca49

Yep so catch 22, B cat get all the hassles, C licence cannot shoot! And I don't have a police record

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## Littledog

> Yep so catch 22, B cat get all the hassles, C licence cannot shoot! And I don't have a police record


There's the answer, get a police record and then you can ignore all the rules and have what ever firearm you can get your mitts on. The Police wont know what you have so wont care. No background checks, no security to install, use it where you want, and you don't need to register it.  

Laws only restrict the law abiding! Seems only the police don't see the irony!

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## Maca49

> There's the answer, get a police record and then you can ignore all the rules and have what ever firearm you can get your mitts on. The Police wont know what you have so wont care. No background checks, no security to install, use it where you want, and you don't need to register it.  
> 
> Laws only restrict the law abiding! Seems only the police don't see the irony!


Always said the best way to own a pistol would be an illegal one, but I'm to old now for the repercussions. Seems silly an honest guy would think that way, sometimes the law is an ass  :36 1 5:  :36 1 5:  :36 1 5:  :36 1 7:  :36 1 7:  :36 1 7:  :Gangs:  :Gangs:  :Gangs:

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## steven

Speaking on getting an E licence, what deals are there on 5+ Cat E safes?  Looking on Trademe Edge want $900 for theirs, so I might as well get one from reloaders for the difference....at last I know it will pass E and I'll have someone's ear to bend....

regards

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## mikee

> Laws only restrict the law abiding! Seems only the police don't see the irony!


A policeman once said to me "we (public) are all guilty/criminals but some of us have not been caught yet." With attitudes like that its no wonder they have credibility issues.

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## P38

> A policeman once said to me "we (public) are all guilty/criminals but some of us have not been caught yet." With attitudes like that its no wonder they have credibility issues.


Bit of the Pot calling the Kettle black with the lastest headlines in the papers this week.

Seems it's getting quite common for Police officers to be outted recently.

Which is a good thing too.

Cheers
Pete

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## Kscott

They're like every other group in the country - human, and there's going to be bad apples in any group. Teachers who are alcoholics and kiddy fiddlers, taxi drivers who drink and drive, doctors who sleep with their patients, shooters who poach or buy ammo for their mate who doesn't have an FAL  :Grin:  The list goes on.....




> Would you be good enough to publish a correction to your newsletter; that will mean that NSA will not have to escalate the matter further.


Oh god no ......

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## P38

> They're like every other group in the country - human, and there's going to be bad apples in any group. Teachers who are alcoholics and kiddy fiddlers, taxi drivers who drink and drive, doctors who sleep with their patients, shooters who poach or buy ammo for their mate who doesn't have an FAL  The list goes on.....
> 
> 
> Oh god no ......


Your not Wrong Kscott

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## Maca49

One of the problems is no one faces up and says the truth, because of the PC brigade and somone may have their feelings hurt.I watched Q&A this am and I could scream.
The truth hurts sometimes, but it's the truth.

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## mikee

> Your not Wrong Kscott


Yep but the Police's job is to enforce the laws as written, not to interpret them and act accordingly. That job is for the courts.

It seems with the Arms Act there is a whole lot of "interpretation" going on by everyone especially some of the AOs round the country.

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## Littledog

> Always said the best way to own a pistol would be an illegal one, but I'm to old now for the repercussions. Seems silly an honest guy would think that way, sometimes the law is an ass


I really enjoy pistol shooting and see it as a great discipline. But do feel sorry for those who live so far away from a club to be able to join and commit to the required number of shoots per year-especially on joining and applying for your B as you need 12 shoots in 6 months to start with.

I would not like to see this rule applied to E cat shooters. I am lucky as I have my B and E and have clubs close by to enable me to participate regularly but for those far from the nearest club it does make it very unpractical to attend. I can see the Police future direction being that both B and E will require club membership which currently is not law for E but is on the Police wish list I am sure.

Why do the Police fear the so called MSSA when the endorsee has jumped thru all the hoops, security measures and been vetted and defined as fit and proper. The law abiding are not the ones the Police need to fear. It is sad they see us as such an issue.

I feel so much more safer in the bush or at a range around other firearm licensee's than I do down town on a friday night-why because the great majority of firearm owners are practical, polite and decent people who generally respect others.

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## Savage1

> Yep but the Police's job is to enforce the laws as written, not to interpret them and act accordingly. That job is for the courts.
> 
> It seems with the Arms Act there is a whole lot of "interpretation" going on by everyone especially some of the AOs round the country.


That is a very ignorant way of looking at it. 

It is a judges job to judge on the laws as they are written, when not written clearly then they have to interpret. Same with Police, they have to interpret the law and enforce it when it isn't clear, yet the judge can interpret the law differently and overrule them.

A lot of law needs to be interpreted as it isn't sufficiently clear, Police couldn't do their job without interpreting law which hasn't been clarified in court. 

People so often miss the forest for the trees when it comes to the Arms Act.

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## Ryan

> That is a very ignorant way of looking at it. 
> 
> It is a judges job to judge on the laws as they are written, when not written clearly then they have to interpret. Same with Police, they have to interpret the law and enforce it when it isn't clear, yet the judge can interpret the law differently and overrule them.
> 
> A lot of law needs to be interpreted as it isn't sufficiently clear, Police couldn't do their job without interpreting law which hasn't been clarified in court. 
> 
> People so often miss the forest for the trees when it comes to the Arms Act.


The problem arises when police become overzealous in their interpretation of the law and get it wrong. The legal system is weighted heavily in favour of the enforcement agents and they will sometimes use this to their advantage.  The average citizen does not have the same level of understanding of the law as the enforcement agent, so is already at a disadvantage before their case even comes to court.

Once their case goes before court, the average citizen does not also have unlimited funds to spend on defending his / her actions and the veneer of "fairness" afforded by a court appointed legal representation isn't worth a hill of beans.

Laws apply to everyone and as such, it should in my opinion, be a legal requirement that everyone can understand them instead of the obfuscation that we currently have. Citizens, police, judges would all be able to understand it, time in court and legal fees would be reduced.

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## Littledog

> That is a very ignorant way of looking at it. 
> 
> It is a judges job to judge on the laws as they are written, when not written clearly then they have to interpret. Same with Police, they have to interpret the law and enforce it when it isn't clear, yet the judge can interpret the law differently and overrule them.
> 
> A lot of law needs to be interpreted as it isn't sufficiently clear, Police couldn't do their job without interpreting law which hasn't been clarified in court. 
> 
> People so often miss the forest for the trees when it comes to the Arms Act.


Agree with you that the Police have to interpret the law to enforce it on many occasions. But they also get that interpretation wrong often on many occasions and tend to bring a over zealous and poorly informed interpretation to the table.

The thumbhole fiasco was a incorrect interpretation on a previously incorrect pistol grip interpretation (high court decision). Kiwi shooters were abiding by the Police's incorrect pistol grip interpretation to keep the peace with the police and due to many not knowing it was a flawed/incorrect interpretation, but then the Police decided to change the interpretation again to include a thumbhole as a pistol grip-this was a incorrect interpretation too far and action was taken against that.

The interpretation then created a wedge and ill feeling between a section of law abiding shooters and the Police which I hope will be able to be fixed and the good feelings return.
The Police have since retracted the thumbhole interpretation and do seem at the local AO level to be making attempts to repair the ill feeling generated. However the management still seem to be tracking in the wrong direction on firearm safety/control.

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## Beavis

I feel the biggest problem is that the laws themselves are written by people who don't know jack about firearms, and they are unwilling to listen to those who do. I think the rules could be a piece of piss to understand if they aimed for simplicity and deleted shit that is irrelevant. I think the E cat classification system should be trashed. The "features" on that list don't amount to anything. It was a copy and paste job done by people who don't really know how to classify what an MSSA is. For example, on the Sport Shooter board, there is a discussion about what exactly a flash suppressor is. If your muzzle brake also suppresses muzzle flash then...? What about your sound suppressor? If we don't know how is a cop expected to know?

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## roig

Interesting reading. It's going to get so hard to have any weaponry at some stage. I can see it getting to the point that one day an 'E cat' storage will be required for anything larger than what's classed as a pistol. As for the Police, some cops are clued up on the paperwork and will have you sorted whereas some are not.

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## veitnamcam

Congratulations everyone this is a great thread on a sensitive topic without delving too deeply into politics or personal attacks. :Thumbsup:

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## Maca49

It's not only firearms. I'm in the electrical game and I ask questions to interprete  standards concerning importation of electrical equipment, so I can electrically test and tag it. When I ask I get the roundabout, when I ask directly in black and white I just get ignored.
The first time I get it wrong I have no doubt every bastard concerned will know exactly what I got wrong. The long and the short of the problem is the government doesn't want to be sued, it is up to prosecution through the courts to sort.

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## Maca49

> Congratulations everyone this is a great thread on a sensitive topic without delving too deeply into politics or personal attacks.


Oh Fark sorry not being political it's just the system is court based

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## Bernie

I really hope it doesn't  become impossible for joe average to own an ar or semi of similar type, I'd hate to have to get rid of mine because it becomes to difficult to meet new license criteria ( it took me some hard work and saving to get a certain type of rifle I've always wanted and which is treated with respect and saftey I show to any firearm)

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## Maca49

Makes me feel like getting another outa bloody mindeness,

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## 300winmag

> It's not only firearms. I'm in the electrical game and I ask questions to interprete  standards concerning importation of electrical equipment, so I can electrically test and tag it. When I ask I get the roundabout, when I ask directly in black and white I just get ignored.
> The first time I get it wrong I have no doubt every bastard concerned will know exactly what I got wrong. The long and the short of the problem is the government doesn't want to be sued, it is up to prosecution through the courts to sort.


Dead right there, I'm in the process of applying for a temp firearms license in Australia, filled out the state police application form and when they issue the license they will also issue an import permit but aussie customs want a tree's worth of paperwork to fill out. Spent many hours on the phone to get sorted but can see if you get it wrong you lose your firearms and potentially get smacked a huge fine.

You can see a time when some Govt's want to de-firearm there citizens and we'll all be using clubs and bow and arrows.

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## marky123

Hello
I didn't emigrate from the country with the worlds most ill-thought and restrictive firearms laws to not get a semi automatic rifle here!
No way!
MARK

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## Baz

Yep, Read the editorial in the latest GUNS&GAME magazine. New South Wales has passed a Ammunition Control Legislation. 

Found info on the legislation here: Firearms Amendment (Ammunition Control) Bill 2012 - NSW Parliament

In the Editors own words "quote" "This legislation is all about annoying and frustrating gun owners, making it harder to use firearms so that you just give up and go and do something else. It is another veiled attempt to try and force people to reduce the number of guns in society as a means of gun control" "unquote"

In summary the bill requires a permit to purchase ammunition, which proves you own a firearm that takes said ammunition and a paper trail to show for the distribution and purchase of the said ammunition.

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## steven

I cant see what that achieves....unless its a way to make more money through getting the permit.  Unless unlike us right now they dont need a FAL to buy ammo?

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## ebf

Likely to up the cost of ammo, coz someone isgoingtohave to pay for the paperwork and beaurocracy...

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## steven

> Likely to up the cost of ammo, coz someone isgoingtohave to pay for the paperwork and beaurocracy...


Yes....mate at work thinks his archery club will see more and more ppl hunting with a bow to avoid the costs.  54R AX ammo just jumped to $43 for 20 in my local shop....I dont think I'll be buying it there....

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## Kiwi Sapper

This seems the most appropriate thread to post this link in as it relates to Waikato Police.

Lock those guns up or lose them | Stuff.co.nz

Interesting to note the use of the words;"......Police also recommend removal of a part of the gun (such as the bolt) which will ensure that if it is stolen at least the gun can not be used by the thief or any other criminal who may acquire it....."

*AS OPPOSED TO*,

".......Police also require the removal of a part of the gun (such as the bolt)..........................

Sadly, another example of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing......................

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## Dead is better

> I cant see what that achieves....unless its a way to make more money through getting the permit.  Unless unlike us right now they dont need a FAL to buy ammo?


In NSW you always needed a FAL to buy goddam airgun pellets. I wouldn't be surprised if they require a body cavity search and pre-emptive tazing (just to remind you who is the boss)

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