# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  Scope levels - do they work?

## Norway

I remember a long thread about scope levels on the other forum.
Todd Hodnett also describes and stresses them as CRITCAL for longrange shooting in the Magpul Art of the Precision Rifle (or similar title) DVD.

I don't like them and can't see how such a level can work unless you have it in your field of view simultanously as you have your sight picture.
Here is a short film I made on the subject

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## Lurcher

the one I suckered myself into buying flips out and can be seen when shooting, so not so bad... still probably just unnecessary bling as you say but there you go.

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## geezejonesy

hey norway, watching your vids is very informative.and cool
 think i  remember you had a ballistics app vid once??   cant find it now  which phone app was it ?? are you able to repost the link again ..

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## stug

They work quite well with the Harris bipod when you can lock the swivel.

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## BRADS

> They work quite well with the Harris bipod when you can lock the swivel.


+1

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## Nzgunner

So you can judge well enough without one? 
As the range increases being level would be more important?
I guess I find it boosts my confidence to have a quick look  :Have A Nice Day: 
A scope with a bubble level inside the sight picture would be the best. Do US optics make one of these?
On a different subject I see you tensioning your sling when firing prone. Do you find it helps stability?
Thanks for the video.

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## kimjon

I wouldn't be without one myself for longrange shooting.

kj

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## R93

They were not around when I first started out LR shooting apart from the odd one on fullbore app sights.
Never used one and havent had the need too so far.
Cant see why they wouldnt be a useful aid though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

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## gimp

Trying to fix a training issue with a gadget.

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## Norway

> think i  remember you had a ballistics app vid once??   cant find it now  which phone app was it ?? are you able to repost the link again ..


It was this, horrible film!



I use Lapua Ballistics (superbly easy to use, Lapua bullets closely match my Scenar bullets) and Shooter/ Applied Ballistics but these are not reliable when working metric and with minus values.

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## Norway

> They work quite well with the Harris bipod when you can lock the swivel.


How do you control the cant when you lock the swivel?
Can you see the level and sight picture simultaneously?

Scope levels typically have about 1 degree resolution. How do you go about getting better than 0,5 degrees out of it? This is a typical/practical value for a scope level and very easy to beat just trusting your body.

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## Norway

> On a different subject I see you tensioning your sling when firing prone. Do you find it helps stability?
> Thanks for the video.


I shoot of a sling very rarely and don't have a good enough sling technique to teach it. If you're refering to the bipod shooting, the sling occasionally gets in the way when I grip the buttstock and tightens. As it doesn't interfere with the shooting I don't do anything about it.

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## gimp

People buy a scope level and say things like "Whoa I noticed every time before I fired I'd check the level and it'd be way off"

because they have it mounted level to the top of the rifle, not the way they hold the rifle, no-one naturally holds a rifle exactly vertical, with the level you're trying to force yourself to and will be canting away from what the level says is flat... which doesn't matter as long as the reticle is leveled to the way that you hold the rifle, and as long as you have a consistent position

People notice themselves missing, go read on the internet about cant and scope levels, and decide that it must be that, because it's easier to buy a scope level than think "hmm it might be my inconsistent position, lack of natural point of aim, poor trigger control etc" and work on that

That's my theory anyway.

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## Dougie

> People buy a scope level and say things like "Whoa I noticed every time before I fired I'd check the level and it'd be way off"
> 
> because they have it mounted level to the top of the rifle, not the way they hold the rifle, no-one naturally holds a rifle exactly vertical, with the level you're trying to force yourself to and will be canting away from what the level says is flat... which doesn't matter as long as the reticle is leveled to the way that you hold the rifle, and as long as you have a consistent position
> 
> *People notice themselves missing, go read on the internet about cant and scope levels, and decide that it must be that, because it's easier to buy a scope level than think "hmm it might be my inconsistent position, lack of natural point of aim, poor trigger control etc" and work on that*
> 
> That's my theory anyway.


I reckon that's a pretty good theory.

And cheers Norways for another awesome vid.

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## leathel

I use one... and lock the pod solid, I find most of the long hunting shots I take are not shot from flat ground so it is imposable lay behind the rifle the same each time to load the bipod the same each shot, so I set the level and free recoil shoot with no twist on the rifle, next to no hold to the rifle...so it is only lifted.. lever stays the same if its lifted up and down vertically, That way you can set up for a quick shot....rather than look for a better rest which is often not there... and then the animal is gone, most of what I shoot is not open Teriann so animals often pop out of site never to be seen again. Its not exactly easy to get level when its hard to see through the scope in a precarious position... You have to make sure parralex is right as often the eye alignment is not great.... Super long shots you need to position better but it seams to work the way I do it to 550 odd, I Don't take shots past that without good alignment with the scope  :Have A Nice Day:

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## sneeze

This is a bit odd really, identifying the benefit you may or may not get from an ACD is quite simple . A few bits from around the home and an hr on the hill will give you some very usefull information in real world terms. If anyones interested Ill post up the "how to" again.
Norway that's a nice video and the scenery is worth the download in itself  but shows a very limited  point of view with regard to a scope level.

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## veitnamcam

> People buy a scope level and say things like "Whoa I noticed every time before I fired I'd check the level and it'd be way off"
> 
> because they have it mounted level to the top of the rifle, not the way they hold the rifle, no-one naturally holds a rifle exactly vertical, with the level you're trying to force yourself to and will be canting away from what the level says is flat... which doesn't matter as long as the reticle is leveled to the way that you hold the rifle, and as long as you have a consistent position
> 
> People notice themselves missing, go read on the internet about cant and scope levels, and decide that it must be that, because it's easier to buy a scope level than think "hmm it might be my inconsistent position, lack of natural point of aim, poor trigger control etc" and work on that
> 
> That's my theory anyway.


If you hold your rifle on the Piss and level your scope then dialing will be "interesting" to say  the least!

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## L.R

I agree with lethal.  Most of the shots I take are from uneven ground, certainly not the position you set yourself up to practice from. So before I take the shot I will set up the cant of the rifle using the level then lock it out with the podloc, Works well for me and eliminates one more variable.
Norway in your video you show that you can put the rifle in position very consistently but can you do it from multiple shooting positions?  Also you have about 3 degrees of cant, are you happy to have that much?

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## Norway

> Norway in your video you show that you can put the rifle in position very consistently but can you do it from multiple shooting positions?


Yes absolutely, well within what a scope level can give me.
No I cant the rifle into me instead of leaning my head into my rifle. It makes for the most consistent shooting. The scope is however level/ without cant.

Your perception of cant works with input from both the vestibular sense and visual input, and they come to a consensus in telling your brain what is level. Learn to level the reticle after the 40-50.000 sensors you have in each ear and don't pay too much attention to what the visuals say you'll be fine, after all gravity is always straight down. However, this requires a fitted rifle so you get a cheekweld every time.

What I failed to express clearly enough was that I'm attacking the scope mounted, having-to-move-your-head levels. The ones you see simultaneously with your sightpicture is fine. However, you can do perfectly well without one.

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## Baz

This is my atempt at understanding why a scope level will help. the two RH theritical targets are the same target at the same range.

When dialing the windage and elevation on the scope turret you are moving the x hair to be 'zero' at the intended range. no vertical or horozonatal reference point needed.

When using hold over you need the reticle 'as a refrence point' level to gain an accurate point of aim. Any cant in the refrence point will compound your point of impact with vertical from gravity.

Think of a grid of dots (horus reticle for example) with a elevation and windage hold over point, hold it level over a target, then rotate it around the x hair when using the same hold over on the target and you will see what I mean.

I think I have just confused myself 

thoughts and comments welcome. I have the MAGPUL precision rifle dvd and understand it better from watching the dvd.

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## leathel

I don't think anyone thinks its not important to hold the scope (not necessarily rifle) level to the earth (gravity not the ground shape) Norway is just saying you dont need a level to do it... 

I like to use a level as I find it hard in some of the spots to hold it level while half laying down a hill with bad cheek weild and not a great position on the scope.

I Have no problem if you have a good area to lay behind the rifle

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## L.R

But Norway has 3 degrees of cant when he takes a shot, i have close to zero when using my level.  What are we saying is an acceptable level of cant?  Norway obviously docent have any problem hitting his target.

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## Norway

It is not the sights but the rifle that cants. My sights are level.

Look at the olympic shooters. "Everyone" cants the RIFLE. I'll try and post some pics later.

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## L.R

I must be missing something because the inclinometer is on the scope not the rifle in your video and it is at 3 degrees when you fire.

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## Norway

As the video states: It is not calibrated.

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## L.R

I see. So was the scope actually level when you fired?  I guess you don't know with out a device on there to check.

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## zimmer

> It is not the sights but the rifle that cants. My sights are level.
> 
> Look at the olympic shooters. "Everyone" cants the RIFLE. I'll try and post some pics later.


Yes Anschutz for example have their top of the line diopter sights able to be canted to compensate for the cant the shooter desires the rifle to assume.  The sights are then canted to maintain verticle and horizontal elevation/windage adjustments.  The rifle is then held in a repeatable postion each time by a spirit level in the front foresight tube (also adjustable for cant). This level is adjustable to suit the cant.  So the whole rifle can be at a severe cant but the sights back and front are "plumb" as is the target being shot at. Any adjustement made to the rear sight will be truelly vertical or horizontal.  They are shooting at fixed known ranges.  All this is a far cry from being out in the sticks I guess.

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## L.R

Yes so the scope must be canted on the rifle then, so at some point you must put a level on the scope while you are holding the rifle in its firing position and set the scope level.  

In my case I would never manage to hold the rifle in the same position every time in some of the positions I shoot from in the field.  So I feel a ACD is necessary for me.

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## Nzgunner

I have a Horus bubble level on the left side of my scope. I shoot with both eyes open so its quick to focus on the level to check if the scope is plumb. I only usually use it for 600 plus meters where you have a little more time to take the shot. I guess the most important part is consistency. Maybe my form isn't the best...I need all the help I can get  :Have A Nice Day:

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## R93

Id say any slight cant without using an ACD would only be noticeable at ranges beyond 6-700m TBF. If I was missing at either 10, 2, 4 and 8 o'clock consistently at range I would consider getting one as weapon cant may be the problem.
If I miss it is usually a bad wind call or high and low due to incorrect data or stock position. I have never considered cant as an issue personally.

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## Toby

Is their a formula to this cant thing, like so many degrees makes the bullet go here, Im not sure If I made my self clear sorry.

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## Neckshot

Nutt behind the butt! if you missed.......... YOU missed!

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## Norway

> So was the scope actually level when you fired?  I guess you don't know with out a device on there to check.


Yes I did know. *That is the whole point of this post about the vestibular sense*. Gravity is by default straight down; drop an item and it will always fall straight down.

What I repeatedly fail to communicate properly is this




> I don't think anyone thinks its not important to hold the scope (not necessarily rifle) level to the earth (gravity not the ground shape) Norway is just saying you dont need a level to do it...


What I fail to identify properly is that I'm attacking the scope levels were you have to move your head to see it - those are nonsense.
The scope levels that you can see simultaneously with your sight picture is ok; they do the job.
But I also say that you don't NEED one of these to shot properly at LR. Building position is as Gimp says a training issue, regardless of terrain, angle or position.

There are three ways of asserting consistency in your hold; crosshairs and scope levels is relevant to this discussion. Scope level is a good tool for checking consistency, but you need to have the right model and place it somewhere you can see it. AND you can do very well without one.


As for rifle cant, that is no problem. It is better to bring a rifle into a straight head than bringing the head to a straight rifle. The below pictures are all olympic medalists. Fixed range as some say, but amongst the most technically proficient position builders in the world and that is the part that is relevant regardless of what range/ position you shoot from.

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## Neckshot

Funny looking at these small bore shooter pics because former nz small bore lady shooter ruth mcneir from good old Dannevirke has a cant as dose her former nz smallbore shooter husband Robbie and they say the same thing aslong as its always the same every shot.And silly question but dose a projectile no up from down??

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## Toby

Can you get rifles with a twist in the butt so the whole gun isnt canted ?

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## Dougie

> Can you get rifles with a twist in the butt so the whole gun isnt canted ?


Why? Professional shooters don't..

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## Toby

So that the gun isnt canted.

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## kimjon

> Is their a formula to this cant thing, like so many degrees makes the bullet go here, Im not sure If I made my self clear sorry.



Yes, it’s a ratio i.e. distance the scope is mounted above the bore (the rifles bore is the pivot point just like a see-saw) V's the amount the bullet has dropped for the given range your target is at.

i.e.

Scope height above bore = 1.5''
Drop at 1000y = 230''

Therefore if your scope was 1mm off perfect alignment to the right, the cant would cause the following error to the left

[Ratio (230''/1.5'')] x1mm off centre (to the right) = Impact will be 153'' left of your aiming point

That in anyone’s language is a big miss!

kj

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## Toby

Would the measurements be taken from the center of the bore to the middle of the scope?

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## veitnamcam

Canting your scope to the rifle and holding the scope level and canting a level scope/rifle are two completely different things.

If for whatever reason you liked to hold your rifle at 45 degrees and leveled your scope like that, then if your scope was lets say 2" over the center of the bore then it would also be 2" left or right of the bore, Zeroed at 100y at 200y it would be 2" left or right and so on depending on your cant. Due to the scope and the bore being off set.

Norway 3 degrees is piss all but is it something you allow for? or use a program to compensate for?

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## kimjon

> Would the measurements be taken from the center of the bore to the middle of the scope?


Yes.

The bore is the pivot point (the constant) the bullet doesn't shoot at an angle, in simplified terms it still comes out and falls towards the earth in the vertical plane effected by gravity no matter what angle the rifle is on. What does change by canting the rifle is you aiming point will pivot with the canted rifle, so your aiming point will not align with where the bullet will actually hit.




> Canting your scope to the rifle and holding the scope level and canting a level scope/rifle are two completely different things.
> 
> If for whatever reason you liked to hold your rifle at 45 degrees and leveled your scope like that, then if your scope was lets say 2" over the center of the bore then it would also be 2" left or right of the bore, Zeroed at 100y at 200y it would be 2" left or right and so on depending on your cant. Due to the scope and the bore being off set.
> 
> Norway 3 degrees is piss all but is it something you allow for? or use a program to compensate for?


Yes they are two different things; but the topic of rifle cant or using a level to help reduce the effects of cant is what we are really talking about, this is the one that will have an effect on accuracy. 

Norway didn't tare his digital level so the 3' is a red hearing - what is important is the 0.5' accuracy he showed that is possible to get from the bubble level. If we do some quick maths on what effect 0.5' has at 1000y then the bubble level would keep you within +1.2'' at 1000y...that’s pretty dam good for a $50 item.

Now when shooting from shitty positions on lumpy ground with poor check weld and across a steep slope, then from my experience I've found that every time I check my level before taking the shot, my first estiamte is waaaay off level. A quick re-level with my ACD and lock in the bi-pod and then I can take the shot with more confidence of hitting the target. 

kj

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## kimjon

> Would the measurements be taken from the center of the bore to the middle of the scope?





> Yes, it’s a ratio i.e. distance the scope is mounted above the bore (the rifles bore is the pivot point just like a see-saw) V's the amount the bullet has dropped for the given range your target is at.
> 
> i.e.
> 
> Scope height above bore = 1.5''
> Drop at 1000y = 230''
> 
> Therefore if your scope was 1mm off perfect alignment to the right, the cant would cause the following error to the left
> 
> ...


Opps - Sorry guys I got my units mixed up on this one (mm v's inches) dam i hate working between imperial and metric.

But the same ratio applies and 154mm error for a minor cant of 1mm at the shooters end is still the difference between a kill and a gut shot.

kj

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## sneeze

Kimjon  that"s my take on it as well after some actual testing in a varrity of positions. The only question is can your vestiublar sences be relied upon in all situations the simple answer for me personally was no definatly not. 
Noway Iv lost count of the threads you've  posted in regarding scope levels. Seems like a whole lot of effort for a $50. item .I'm wondering  did you get chased up a tree buy a scope level when you where young?  Or maybe a scope level stole your girl friend?

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## Snala

Those pictures of the competitive shooters showing cant aren't relevant as their rifles are zeroed for one known specific range anyway so any variance from centre is only going to happen if they changed ranges without adjusting. For what you guys are saying here if a gun is always shot canted, it must be relevant, especially the further out you shoot from the rifles true zeroed range.

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## Norway

I surrender.  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
I simply fail to present the message correctly. It's all part pf my general "skill before gear" theme.

Here, enjoy the next segment of building position instead: Natural point of aim

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## L.R

Norway, would you let a builder build you a house with no level? Just using his sence of level?  I sure wouldn't.

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## zimmer

> Norway, would you let a builder build you a house with no level? Just using his sence of level?  I sure wouldn't.


Plumber that did my house didn't own a level...

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## L.R

And how does it look?

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## Rushy

> Plumber that did my house didn't own a level...


Water finds its own level Zimmer

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## zimmer

> And how does it look?


He proved the theory that water will not run uphill. Oh by the way I am from the ACD camp.

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## Nzgunner

That was a very intereting thread. I learnt a few things and great information for new shooters to read. 
I was given some good advice the other day about natural point of aim. When going prone the first thing to do is to look at the target as you lay down. Rather than finding a comfy spot to lay down then acquiring the target. A good place to start.

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## Norway

> Norway, would you let a builder build you a house with no level? Just using his sence of level?  I sure wouldn't.


Sorry, you are com-plet-ely missing the point.
A builder doesn't use a cheekweld or a rested position.

This is by far the single most blog episode were I have so thoroughly failed to get the message across  :ORLY:

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## R93

> Sorry, you are com-plet-ely missing the point.
> A builder doesn't use a cheekweld or a rested position.
> 
> This is by far the single most blog episode were I have so thoroughly failed to get the message across


I caught your drift Norway.
They may be handy bits of kit, but you dont need one to be successful.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

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## bully

i have a scope level that folds out so you can see it and the cross hair in your scope at the same time.
i didnt like it because even though you can get it in the same place every time it just didnt seem right as its just wierd trying to get the bubble centre when your not right behind it, instead your off to the side.
so iv taken it off, and i spend more time trying to read the wind instead.

i get what norway is saying... the moment you have the bubble level (the type thats on the centre of the scope) whats to say it didnt move when you shift your focus to the cross hair. instead you would probabley be better off trusting your natural sences.

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## bully

> Don't know why I'm on here on the wall home but right,  not don't know down from us,  but this bugs will do:p work dos
> 
> sent from my Samsung s3 using tapatalk 2





> Mate!!! Drive?  Jew in door I can hardly  walk let almost drive!!!  So 2 legs for me I'll be sweet after the 5ish kook home:thumbup:
> 
> sent from my Samsung s3 using tapatalk 2


 :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:  haha, on the tui.

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## sneeze

> This is by far the single most blog episode were I have so thoroughly failed to get the message across


I think most here understand the point your are making but myself and it seems  a few others just don't agree with it.  You claim that  our vestibular scenses will allow us to identify verticle anywhere in any position therefore not needing the information a simple level can give?. The problem is when determining verticel the brain will use all the information from  any of the body's senses it can  not just the vestibular and as is the case with many human factors it can be misled. Setting up on a nice level position, a familar spot Iv used befor or any postion that gives me something in the site picture to reference off and I will normally be close enough without relying on a level. Lying on a side slope and looking up at 30 degrees at a animal standing on a slope and I can be long way off. Thats *I* as in me personally. My human scenses  will no doubt  vary from other humans.
 I have it now, you had a scope level but it turned out to be a lesbian and left you for another lesbian scope level?

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## Norway

> [...] not needing [...]


Not *critical* for a hit. I tried to stress that word in the first post.

Position, regardless of terrain and situation, is a matter of training. A level can be a nice tool, but not an absolute necessity.

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## leathel

> Those pictures of the competitive shooters showing cant aren't relevant as their rifles are zeroed for one known specific range anyway so any variance from centre is only going to happen if they changed ranges without adjusting. For what you guys are saying here if a gun is always shot canted, it must be relevant, especially the further out you shoot from the rifles true zeroed range.


The rifle can be canted but the scope cant.... rifle canted & the scope not gets the bullets running parallel but to one side very slightly.... you dont have to adjust for it  you just aim for it and if its only a few degrees it will be sweet FA so you don't even need to aim for it ... The error comes in with dialing and if scope is set right the dialing will align with gravity  :Have A Nice Day: 

Now to watch the next video  :Grin:

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## sneeze

> Dave!!!!:p
> 
> sent from my Samsung s3 using tapatalk 2


Drunk and disorderly 
Indecent exposure
graftity using  obscene language.

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## sneeze

> Not *critical* for a hit. I tried to stress that word in the first post.
> 
> Position, regardless of terrain and situation, is a matter of training. A level can be a nice tool, but not an absolute necessity.


"Critital for a hit" will depend on the amount of cant errror ,target size and elevation dialed. A few things I use may not be "critcel for a hit" but they help a little  in some situations so Ill keep them till I find a better way. Seems we are starting to go in circles now.

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## Norway

Todd Hodnett raises scope levels to unreal importance in order to make money - he basically says you'll miss if you dont have a scope level.

I detest that.
AND for a skilled shooter "level" is a non-issue. I was simply looked into the discrepancy between the rumoured importance of scope levels and the LR results I've been able to firsthand see from shoters doing any range/angle/position and having absolutely no problem nailing it despite no scope level bubble thingie. What makes this possible is the vestibular sense and training.

By all means, be happy with your level.

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## tui_man2

Might want to edit my shit out:rolleyes:

I think level is needed for 600m plus stuff in hunting situation,  I also use 1 in smallbore rifle shooting,  like others said we zero an shoot at set ranges an get sighters at different ranges,  at 50m it's unlimited I have to click on couple side ways form 25m to 50m

sent from my Samsung s3 using tapatalk 2

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## L.R

Don't work on any of my shit today Abe!

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## sneeze

> Todd Hodnett raises scope levels to unreal importance in order to make money - he basically says you'll miss if you dont have a scope level.
> 
> I detest that.
> AND for a skilled shooter "level" is a non-issue. I was simply looked into the discrepancy between the rumoured importance of scope levels and the LR results I've been able to firsthand see from shoters doing any range/angle/position and having absolutely no problem nailing it despite no scope level bubble thingie. What makes this possible is the vestibular sense and training.
> 
> By all means, be happy with your level.


 :Grin:  Its not something I covert at all, I actually don't like the look of them on a scope and  I wont tell anyone  to get one  but from an individual point it dosn't need to be an opinion based decision, its easy to test  measure and calculate.You dont even have to burn any ammo.

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## rusl

Hey guys sorry to bring up an old topic, just trying to set up my first rifle to learn to dial my shots and reading thru old posts .
 I'm just not sure about canting my rifle to the scope . I under stand that you must have the scope reticle vertical other wise when you dial elevation you will dial off to the side and if the rifle is canted gravity only affects the bullet vertically so your elevation would be similar. And your scope is parallel to the bore so when you have scope zeroed at 100y you would have to have some windage dialed in, because the bullet isnt exiting directly inline with the relicle. So then when you wind up your elevation for 600y wouldn't you need to change your windage adjustment aswell because you would have gone from having say .25 of an inch windage to 3inchs and then when you are using a inclined base or rings like a 20 Moa base wouldn't your windage be off even more because of a greater bore to scope misalignment. You have now built in for eg if your rifle was canted 45degrees 10moa windage to the left. 
Sorry if its a bit confusing.

Thanks for your help.

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## Rushy

Welcome rusl

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## veitnamcam

Welcome.
Yep scope levels do work if set up correctly.
The question is do you actually need one,?

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Nibblet

> Welcome.
> Yep scope levels do work if set up correctly.
> The question is do you actually need one,?
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Last few times we went smashing gongs I never used mine. Folded it out once out of curiousity to find I was already more or less bang on. Cheap enough though.

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## rusl

Thanks guys
Yip not sure if you need a level or not that's really up to the shooter. 
The question I pose is if the rifle is canted as Norway suggests is proper form and the scope is levelled in this position so the bore is not vertical with the cross hairs, when I zero my rifle at 100y then dial up to 600y will my windage dope still be correct?
I drew some birds eye views and projected the bullets path with the sight line and it doesn't work out.
Or am I missing something really obvious?
Cheers.

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## Savage1

so long as your scope line is in perfect line with the barrel you'll be fine, with a canted base/rings it will throw it out.

If you have a canted base the cross hair should be in line with the barrel.

Well that's my theory, never experimented with the theory but would be easily tested.

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## rusl

Thanks savage1 that's exactly what I was thinking. Just thought I may have missed something.

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## shooternz

If your scope is setup with the reticule  lined up square to the barrel and you cant the rifle you will see that the horizontal cross hair is not level unless you have a problem with your eyes which is not likely, I've shot F class since it started and never needed a bubble level
out to 1000 yrds it's just something else to get stuffed up. Robert.

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## LBD

400m plus and you are starting to need one...

Here is a little trick to see how good you are without one... Get a 1m high sheet of card board and draw a straight line top to bottom.... mark a point 10cm up from the bottom. Use a spirit level and set the board up at 100m with the line absolutely vertical. Assuming you are zeroed at 100m, put 3 rounds on the bottom mark then adjust the elevation 8 mills up then repeat the 3 rounds while targeting the bottom mark.

I bet you cannot get the same size group, exactly on the line, exactly 80 cm above the first group, if you do not have a cant level...

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## NewbieZAR

People who say you dont need a scope level propably dont shoot far enough to realise you need one in my opinion. It is part of your shooting system, on its own if you dont have a decent system then a bubble wont help you

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## faregame

I was reading Bryan Litz’s book last night on this
And based on a 3 degree cant the bullet would move left or right 

A 243 vs 308 and yards/inches

At 300  1 and 1.4
At 500 3.1 and 4.4
At 900 12.4 and 18.5

The difference is the trajectory of the 308 vs 243 being flatter

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## Smiddy

I remember years ago some fat fucker at hunting and fisting tower junction I think his name was Tom I used to see him in the magazines for goose shooting, anyway I went in there for them to mount a scope for me with there levels and he was telling me he sees no reason why it has to be bang in level and that he shoots a 270wsm so he would know rah rah rah,  I dont think Ive ever been in again since 


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