# Firearms and Shooting > Firearms, Optics and Accessories >  20,000 guns stolen per year according to the ODT

## Krameranzac

https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editor...rsation-needed

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## Tuidog

The fuckwit that wrote that must be Australian. Reads like the shit they spout over here.

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## 308

What a load of horseshit

Where's the idiot's fuckin proof?

Besides, what were the cops expected to do when confronted with a sawn-off - I reckon the AOS got that one spot-on.
If you front the cops with a gun then they have every right to take your dumb arse out

As for Cahill, that is just bollocks

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## StrikerNZ

55 guns stolen each and every day...  :ORLY:

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## johnd

Wow the black market in ammo must be huge!

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## MassiveAttack

Fake news.

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## 308

> Fake news.


True dat

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## Rushy

Don't panic guys.  The 20k number is pure cods wallop.

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## GravelBen

Does someone with too much spare time want to submit an official information request for the police figures on stolen firearms, and then lay a complaint about a police officer lying on public record if they don't agree with his claim?

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## zimmer

If you read it it says "or sold to offenders". So the 20k is not clearly the total stolen. Good bit of vague reporting to amp up the anti gunners.

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## Danger Mouse

Sent to the odt:
To whom it may concern,
the linked article is an absolutely appalling standard of journalism, using emotive statements and exaggeration in order to increase reader numbers. In a modern sense, it is click bait, and a sad display of the standard of NZ journalism. 

You talk about those that get caught in the cross fire. Do you have any evidence of this, or are you referring to innocent bystanders that get shot by AOS members when they miss their targets (Auckland North western motorway incident)?

What about the conflicting information that is also presented by the media such as:

9 Jan 2017 Radio NZ New Zealand | Radio New Zealand News ... union-says
"The problem stemmed from more than 20,000 firearms, including military semi-automatic weapons, entering the country each year, which were then stolen or sold to offenders, he said"

10 Jan 2017 Radio NZ New Zealand | Radio New Zealand News ... legal-guns
"Mr Cahill said it was estimated nearly 50,000 guns come into New Zealand to be sold each year"

So which is it RNZ?...neither i suspect, just the usual sloppy propaganda dished up for the masses..

I thought journalism was meant to be truthful, complete and accurate. NZ firearms owners have noted that your ‘publication’ routinely creates articles with an negative slant towards firearms in this country, without displaying all the relevant facts. 

I also note that there is ZERO evidence to back up anything in this article, just an attempt to create hysteria. It is pretty easy to realise that the numbers stated are fabrication (5 minutes on google and some common sense will show this).

As a result I and a number of other liecensed firearms owners will be laying complaints to the press council.

Poor form.

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## shooternz

> Don't panic guys.  The 20k number is pure cods wallop.


Very likely but the average Joe public doesn't know that they want to believe this BS, This new Wanker is far worse than the old wanker 
his lies are not believable and he doesn't seem to give a shit, We could be in big trouble very soon with this enquiry into illegal firearms
the Police don't mined lying to get the result they want it seems,
If 300,000 firearms owners withdraw their support from National and Labour it should send a message just don't give it to the Greens and United

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## tikka

Nah there's a balls up there some where.??

Australia
More than 6000 firearms stolen across Australia in two-year period, figures show

America 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...firearm-survey

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## Krameranzac

> Does someone with too much spare time want to submit an official information request for the police figures on stolen firearms, and then lay a complaint about a police officer lying on public record if they don't agree with his claim?


I believe a SSANZ OIA request found that in 2014/2015 there were 776 firearms recorded as stolen.

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## Chur Bay

> I believe a SSANZ OIA request found that in 2014/2015 there were 776 firearms recorded as stolen.



How the hell can they get away with printing such shit. 
Must be mates with Philip Alpers

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## Sideshow

That's just very poor journalism full stop if the 20000 figure was true, the journo would print the source of said information.
I do like this in the third paragraph from bottom though. 

"It is a difficult balance, given responsible gun owners will inevitably be tarred with any reactionary brush, "

But that's about it :Sad:

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## GravelBen

> That's just very poor journalism full stop if the 20000 figure was true, the journo would print the source of said information.


Pretty sure the journalist is just quoting the police union guy. Who really has no excuse.

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## Koshogi

> Pretty sure the journalist is just quoting the police union guy. Who really has no excuse.


Pretty sure the so called 'journalist ' is full of shit.

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## scotty

C'mon now he might be including nail guns rivet guns spray guns  glue guns and so on and such might boost the figures a bit .......can't let the facts get in the way of a good story

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## petronious_arbiter

that ODT piece is an editorial — essentially a puffed-up in-house column/opinion piece — so one shouldn't expect facts, balance or journalism.

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## Carlsen Highway

So in the last five years 100,000 firearms were stolen or sold to criminals? How many criminals are there in a country with only 4 million people?

More media releases by the POlice to bolster their coming attempt to convince politicians and the public of the need for a strict firearms law change once the inquiry results are published. 
If they have to make up figures it just shows how weak the need for it is.

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## gadgetman

> So in the last five years 100,000 firearms were stolen or sold to criminals? How many criminals are there in a country with only 4 million people?
> 
> More media releases by the POlice to bolster their coming attempt to convince politicians and the public of the need for a strict firearms law change once the inquiry results are published. 
> If they have to make up figures it just shows how weak the need for it is.


Personally I can see a case for a big shake up of the police hierarchy if they are allowing so much major crime to be happening and yet they are obviously not doing anything useful to counter it.

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## Rushy

> C'mon now he might be including nail guns rivet guns spray guns  glue guns and so on and such might boost the figures a bit .......can't let the facts get in the way of a good story


Now that you mention it Scotty, some bastard did steal my grease gun.  I wonder if that is in the number?

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## Maca49

@Rushy, you owned a grease gun! B or E cat! Hope it was unloaded, where do you store the grease? I bet you only owned it for the nipple!
Was it a Blouse! :Thumbsup:

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## Rushy

> @Rushy, you owned a grease gun! B or E cat! Hope it was unloaded, where do you store the grease? I bet you only owned it for the nipple!
> Was it a Blouse!


Very clever Maca.  Nothing wrong with a bit of grease on a nipple. Ha ha ha ha ..... and there you go folks, in one easy lesson that is how you go way off subject in a thread.

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## scotty

This just in.... ODT reports a man assaulted with stolen grease gun .... police haven't heard a squeak out of him

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## gonetropo

> This just in.... ODT reports a man assaulted with stolen grease gun .... police haven't heard a squeak out of him


dead clown found with a bullet wound to his head, he was also covered in crushed nuts, chocolate sprinkles and whipped cream. police think he may have topped himself

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## Sasquatch

"Has gun ownership evolved into a right, rather than a privilege?"

Considering the definition of privilege means special _right_ I'd say your repeating yourself you git.

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## Beavis

Again, this is all just part of a propaganda war.

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## Maca49

I think the comment by Dick O'Connor must be wrong as well, "police losing the arms race" shit if 20 k are going a year the horse has well and truly bolted! I'm  bugger if I know why we keep them secured, it's obviously not working and is just a small inconvenience to the crim.
How do thes wankers hold their jobs?? :O O:

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## zimmer

> I think the comment by Dick O'Connor must be wrong as well, "police losing the arms race" shit if 20 k are going a year the horse has well and truly bolted! I'm  bugger if I know why we keep them secured, it's obviously not working and is just a small inconvenience to the crim.
> How do thes wankers hold their jobs??


Losing the arms race
Losing the drug battle
Losing the speeding "battle"
What else is there to lose oh burglaries

On a brighter note I see El Salvadore celebrated its first murder free day in 2 years compared to around 11 a day normally.

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## timattalon

> Losing the arms race
> Losing the drug battle
> Losing the speeding "battle"
> What else is there to lose oh burglaries
> 
> On a brighter note I see El Salvadore celebrated its first murder free day in 2 years compared to around 11 a day normally.


No. I suspect with the ODT that it fails to mention the 11 El Salvadorian (?) people that went missing on that day. This just means the bodies have not been found yet....

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## Maca49

I'll go with the Phillipines man, 1M on his hit list and working thru them! What a guy!!! :O O:

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## systolic

I see only one person has bothered to put a comment on the ODT website instead of simply whining about it here.

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## screamO

> Personally I can see a case for a big shake up of the police hierarchy if they are allowing so much major crime to be happening and yet they are obviously not doing anything useful to counter it.


Not true, they are asking for them to be returned :Oh Noes:

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## Nickoli

> I see only one person has bothered to put a comment on the ODT website instead of simply whining about it here.


Back under the bridge troll: more sense discussing with people who aren't so one-eyed as those who are blinded by the media.
Constantly alienating those on the forum makes you a bigger dork than those who publish the ODT in my opinion.

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## Rushy

> I'll go with the Phillipines man, 1M on his hit list and working thru them! What a guy!!!


I am with you Maca.  There is quite a lot about Duterte's approach that has appeal.  No nonsense, says what he thinks. Of course you and I will have to accept that we would be in the minority in our thinking.  Too many overly politically corrected socialist in our society today that think you and I are obsolete in our thinking.

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## kotuku

I smell the doyen of left leaning MSM reporters experts one Prof Kevin clements pudgy wee digits behind this crock of crap.
PKC is head of institute of peace studies or something similar at otago university.a great academic institution that -has had 3convicted killers on its tutorial staff in last 10-15yrs.,but shit no ODT would never publicise that
  this bloke Cahill-does anyone find him odd -everytime i see him spouting forth about police matters ,i get the impression hes missing a diode in one of his circuits.
i watched him recently being interviewed and he came across as being on the point of tears.buggered if i know what it is but i just cant connect.at least with moosejaw oconnor you knew youd get a diatribe of good old socialist vernacular.

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## Sasquatch

> Again, this is all just part of a propaganda war.


Absolutely, and its a disgrace that we have been scrutinized over the media because of it. Why can't they provide actual sound facts or provide a story that has reason & balance. They can't

Instead we have people like that "journalist" who would rather fire off miss-informed, un-factual *blanks* _pun intended_

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## Tommy

It's pretty simple, Cahill is a fucking liar. And if he can lie this blatantly to promote this part of his agenda (whatever that may be) you can assume he lies quite readily. Liar + policeman = very dangerous indeed. It's this type of arsehole that gives decent cops a bad name and put innocent people in jail. He's a disgrace and needs to foxtrot oscar sharpish

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## systolic

> Back under the bridge troll: more sense discussing with people who aren't so one-eyed as those who are blinded by the media.
> Constantly alienating those on the forum makes you a bigger dork than those who publish the ODT in my opinion.


So you aren't going to actually take the ODT to task about their inaccuracies? Just preach to the choir instead?

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## Beavis

This is the day and age of shit posting. The MSM is literally no better than 4chan. CNN is literally fixed and fake news. Facts, logic and reason get lost in the ideological struggle. Breaking the board rules now, but the US election is a classic example of shit posting and propaganda squaring off. The alt right won big because their shit posting game was stronger than the lefts'. Having wiki leaks on their side was a huge help. Maybe taking something out of their play book might be the way forward. Just shit post and drown out their argument against us with noise.

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## 308

> This is the day and age of shit posting. The MSM is literally no better than 4chan. CNN is literally fixed and fake news. Facts, logic and reason get lost in the ideological struggle. Breaking the board rules now, but the US election is a classic example of shit posting and propaganda squaring off. The alt right won big because their shit posting game was stronger than the lefts'. Having wiki leaks on their side was a huge help. Maybe taking something out of their play book might be the way forward. Just shit post and drown out their argument against us with noise.


Agreed - I don't know if it is true that Cahill is in fact a transgender midget prostitute with links to the communist agenda and a strong interest in watersports (just like Trump, hmmm) but I believe that these allegations are serious and must be addressed

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## Maca49

> I am with you Maca.  There is quite a lot about Duterte's approach that has appeal.  No nonsense, says what he thinks. Of course you and I will have to accept that we would be in the minority in our thinking.  Too many overly politically corrected socialist in our society today that think you and I are obsolete in our thinking.


Hell everybody has rights today Rushy, you can do anything and the do gooders will still insist on your rights. Yep I'm obsolete in my thinking, but the ball will turn, I hope it doesn't get to late!

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## Nickoli

> So you aren't going to actually take the ODT to task about their inaccuracies? Just preach to the choir instead?


Righteous indignation won't get you anywhere either.
Lead the crusade if you must, you don't seem to interested in fitting in with the community otherwise. :Thumbsup:

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## Sideshow

> I see only one person has bothered to put a comment on the ODT website instead of simply whining about it here.


To right just posted :Thumbsup:

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## Carlsen Highway

Yeah, there's no point whining to each other here, you have to take it to the people.

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## Carlsen Highway

I am not sure if I am working the comments properly, or whether the ODT is declining to put up my comments, but the comments I made yesterday have not been displayed. 
I just made another version (not as good, but I cant remember exactly) which I put up just now;

We understand writing about guns is "sexy", but this sensationalist piece quoting figures from Mr Cahill of the NZ Police is disappointing. 
Mr Cahilll claims 20,000 firearms are stolen or sold to criminals every year. Every year mind. This would indeed be a flood of dire proportions if it were true. But it's not. 700 firearms were stolen over 2014 and 2015. That is only 19,300 less than Mr Cahill's figure. 
So lately we are left with the idiot up north who was caught with 14 hidden in his roof and no license, and the recent burglary in Dunedin. That's only 19,958 less than Mr Cahills figure. That's so far out, you might as well say that the 20,000 figure was just made up.
So there is not a flood of firearms falling into the hands of criminals. That should be a relief to whoever wrote this opinion piece. 
Mr Cahill is preparing the ground for an attempt to further stiffen firearms laws in NZ - but then Mr Cahill seems unaware that the firearms he is concerned about are already restricted, and already registered.
Meanwhile the writer of the piece got a sexy piece about guns printed, and didn't have to bother with the unsexy stuff, like fact checking.

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## Miami_JBT

Just to point out....

This appears to be a political thread. Some here to after me when I even mention who I voted for back on November 8th.


Also fuck those bullshit numbers.

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## timattalon

> Agreed - I don't know if it is true that Cahill is in fact a transgender midget prostitute with links to the communist agenda and a strong interest in watersports (just like Trump, hmmm) but I believe that these allegations are serious and must be addressed


And remember, He is not police heirachy, he is UNION Hierachy. Whoever sits in the position he is in now is no longer beating the Police drum, he is beating the Union drum. What he spouts is NOT for the good of NZ and its people. It is solely and completely good for the union members he represents (In his opinion anyway)....

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## 308

[QUOTE=Miami_JBT;555050]Just to point out....

This appears to be a political thread. Some here to after me when I even mention who I voted for back on November 8th.


Partly the mods are on holiday and partly we are fed up to the back teeth with the stupidity that is the US political circus

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## Beavis

> And remember, He is not police heirachy, he is UNION Hierachy. Whoever sits in the position he is in now is no longer beating the Police drum, he is beating the Union drum. What he spouts is NOT for the good of NZ and its people. It is solely and completely good for the union members he represents (In his opinion anyway)....


But if police don't refute their bullshit statistics then they are no better than them. 20,000 guns a year arming criminals makes them sound like a bunch of clowns. That would mean that their would probably be enough firearms to arm every criminal in the country, and yet how many times do you actually hear of someone getting shot?

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## Sasquatch

Someone needs to be held accountable for spouting off such a ridiculous number. Its so sensationalized its pure madness. How many personal are in our military? Would be close to 20k so these stats tell us the crims are almost as equally armed!?

What's worse is some antis will now quote that absurd stat as fact from here on.

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## zimmer

> Someone needs to be held accountable for spouting off such a ridiculous number. Its so sensationalized its pure madness. How many personal are in our military? Would be close to 20k so these stats tell us the crims are almost as equally armed!?
> 
> What's worse is some antis will now quote that absurd stat as fact from here on.


Yes unfortunately the harm is now done and any retraction/correction will be less effective than the first version. Look how the major rags issue their corrections - very small entries deep in the newspaper.
That's not to say there shouldn't be accountability.

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## Rock river arms hunter

In other words you wrote the truth which doesn't coincide with their agenda and god forbid the media much like CNN and Buzzfeed of late is found out to be lying.

Let's get a few of us to prove them wrong :-)

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## Sasquatch

CNN & Buzzfeed have slaughtered themselves. Running with that pathetic fabricated lie Completely back-fired on them, good riddance i say.

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## Carlsen Highway

Ha, they felt moved by our comments enough to post a rebuttal. 
Basically they are saying that even though the figures are crap we still are going to stand by this opnion, based on nothing at all.

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## Krameranzac

Ccahill@policeassn.org.nz should be Cahills email. Failing that here is the link to the associations website mail portal. https://www.policeassn.org.nz/contact-us

Someone may wish to ask where he gets his fantatstic figures from.

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## Chilli_Dog

Email sent to Paula Bennett about that one. Is there a version of the broadcasting standard for printed/internet media? I noticed that their rebuttal still said the numbers came from the Police not the Police Association..... Big difference

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## Carlsen Highway

As far as the ODT saying they stand by their stance taken in the editorial - The point is that the quote was from Mr Cahill, and the article was entirely based on the supposition that the figure was correct. And that would be fine if it were just straight reporting - so-and-so said this. 
But its an _editorial_ , which is an opinion piece and an interpretation. You can't base your editorial on utter nonsense and then pretend your not responsible for your conclusions. The claim that Mr Cahill's figures have been widely quoted in the media is no defense for being absurdly uncritical in an editorial.

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## foxhound

Looks like NZ media following the main stream media in the USA and spreading fake news, call them out on it no one believes the media anymore with access to the net and able make up our own minds. Its all political propaganda bullshit IMO of course.

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## shooternz

I received a reply to my letter to the Minister of Police basically a waste of time,

Dear Mr Walker

I am writing on behalf of Hon Paula Bennett, Minister of Police, who has asked me to acknowledge and thank you for your email of 14 January 2017 concerning Mr Cahills statement that there were 20,000 firearms stolen or sold to offenders. Please be assured that your comments have been noted.

I must point out that politicians cannot instruct Police in operational matters.  This is a long standing convention that was enshrined in law with the passing of the Policing Act 2008.  It ensures that law enforcement and investigation by the Police remain free of any political influence or interference.

Therefore, as the issues you refer to in your correspondence relate to matters that are the responsibility of the Commissioner of Police, I have transferred your email to his office for consideration.

Yours sincerely


Ali Sedgwick
Part Time Private Secretary (Police) | Office of Hon Paula Bennett | Minister of Police
7.6 Executive Wing | Parliament Buildings, Wellington 6160, New Zealand
Email: ali.sedgwick@parliament.govt.nz
www.beehive.govt.nz

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## Rock river arms hunter

> As far as the ODT saying they stand by their stance taken in the editorial - The point is that the quote was from Mr Cahill, and the article was entirely based on the supposition that the figure was correct. And that would be fine if it were just straight reporting - so-and-so said this. 
> But its an _editorial_ , which is an opinion piece and an interpretation. You can't base your editorial on utter nonsense and then pretend your not responsible for your conclusions. The claim that Mr Cahill's figures have been widely quoted in the media is no defense for being absurdly uncritical in an editorial.


-Face palming - fuck that's crap. I might do that OIA request as I'll have a short day tomorrow should someone point me in the right direction

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## stretch

> -Face palming - fuck that's crap. I might do that OIA request as I'll have a short day tomorrow should someone point me in the right direction


https://fyi.org.nz

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Chilli_Dog

Well the article has been amended now with "Chris Cahills mistake" being fixed, maybe some of the emails to Ms Bennett did get some sort of action after all

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## Krameranzac

Well done to all those who wrote in and called bullshit!

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## 308

That is good news

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## Daggers_187

> Police Association president Chris Cahill mistakenly gave an incorrect figure relating to guns in a recent media interview.


 :ORLY:

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## Danger Mouse

Lol, 'mistake' yeah right. And the police wonder why (they commented on it in the select comittee)  they are getting increased resistance from license holders.



In fact scratch that, I think they know why, and are actively causing it, while playing dumb to the public.

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## Sideshow

Funny I wrote in :Thumbsup:  not posted  :Wtfsmilie: but if you see the name Mrs Brown then yep that might be me :XD:

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