# Firearms and Shooting > Shotgunning >  English & Spanish side by sides

## el borracho

A thread on English & Spanish side by side shotguns , engraving ,marbled  walnut stocks , history of guns and makers and your photos of your guns and the work you are doing to restore your beautiful side by side be it a best gun or just your regular carry that you value .

I hope you all that enjoy this subject support it with loads of info and posts of your guns and story's of the old guns  

I know there are some passionate people here who like myself have a love of the fine shot guns built many years before we were born .  I am certainly no expert in this area but now would use in the field nothing other than my side by sides which are now starting to mount up "most cheap guns purchased for between  $250 -$500    although I am yet to have anything of real note as far as a best gun goes -one day !

I thought this could be a good thread dedicated to old guns,  restoration and the pains each of us goes through to make better a pitted barrel or a oil filled stock or any other fault that can be improves either by a competent smith or by a loving DIY man .

My latest purchase is from a well known London gun maker Charles Lancaster . A side by side , straight stock double trigger with a round box lock  action .  This gun weighs around 6.5 pounds pounds with 30 inch barrels  .
The barrels need some attention and I recently purchased a bench grinder and a buffing pad and block abrasive to  cut the rusty pitting from the surface of the barrel .I am a total novice but have observed another doing this and had a shot so will go with caution . I will strip the stock of its oil with a heat gun and what ever chemical will give me a hand - sadly the wood on this gun isn't worth a shit being totally without any marbling and couldn't be less boring  . There is no engraving on the action of this gun and only the makers name appears -not unattractive though mainly due to the very attractive rounded shape of the action .The forgrip is a classic narrow piece of would with well worn checkering  which will need cleaning of oil and re-checkered . Hopefully in time I can show what Ive done and if its a dogs dinner or semi respectable  .

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## el borracho

I saw this piece on buying British side by sides guns on an overseas forum  a forum the other day and also thought it worth reposting so I hope you enjoy -the commentator knows his stuff

  As many of you maybe aware, prior to ditching London life and emigrating to the sticks, I was the manager of a large gun factory in Hammersmith (the one beginning with P).

Anyway I get quite a few requests and PMs on here asking for advice, usually from folks looking to purchase their first proper side by side. So to save me replying each time, I thought I'd chuck a few top tips up here.

Obviously with the wealth of shooting knowledge on here, it would be cool if other shooters could also whack some tips up and turn this thread into a useful tool for everyone's benefit.

First things first, you need to decide whether you want a boxlock or a sidelock, what's the difference? Well in reality, not a massive amount, sidelocks look nicer, hold their value better, for sure you'll look like the lord of the manor when you go on a game shoot if that's your thing. Beware though, they are more complicated (read expensive) than boxlocks to maintain. Getting one restocked can often cost more than the gun itself is worth. Purdey, H&H or Boss will sting you for around 12 grand for new woodwork (yes really) so if you do go down the sidelock route, ensure the wood is in good nick and that it fits you, (more about that later). A tidy Birmingham boxlock will cost you less than an average London sidelock and probably give you less hassle in the long run.

Having said that, if you can afford a sidelock, it's worth it merely for the smug factor and the fact that it will probably increase considerably in value.

So now you've decided what you want, it's time to think about what you will use the gun for primarily. If you're going to be doing a fair bit of trekking around and carrying the gun, it's probably best to avoid a 10lb pigeon gun for instance. A good weight to aim for in a 12b side by side is somewhere between 6 and 7lbs and will be good for most things.

In my personal opinion, barrel length is largely irrelevant, if they are properly made, the gun should shoot well regardless. Having said that, I personally wouldn't get anything shorter than 28" or longer than 30", for resale reasons.

Stock measurements are vital, if you already have a gun you shoot well with, try and get a new gun with similar stock measurements. If you don't know your measurements, a gunfit at a reputable shooting ground is worth every penny. 14 1/2" long is about average, I'm 6'2" and shoot best with a 14 3/4" stock. Obviously bend and cast measurements will also affect things, but length is most important. Your chances of finding a second hand gun with your perfect measurements are very slim, so aim for something as close as possible, failing that go for 14 1/2" as it will be easier to sell in the future.

Makes to look out for: like cars, there are hundreds of different makers, obviously London guns are the holy Grail, but Birmingham, Edinburgh and Newcastle all had decent makers at certain periods throughout history. Do your own research on the different makes and find one you like. Remember many of the boxlocks you see were knocked up by BSA and Webley but have different makers names on depending on who finished them as such don't be afraid of buying a gun you've never heard of, there is a strong chance the barrels and action came from one of the well known Birmingham factories.

Top tip from me would be to check out Atkins. He was an ex Purdey man who went solo and the few guns I've seen of his are as good as any similarly aged Purdey but considerably cheaper. Good lick finding one.

So once you've found your gun there are a few points to look out for when assessing it's overall condition.

No big pitting or heavy scratch marks in or on the barrels.

It should go without saying that rust is to be avoided.

Barrels should be straight and free of dents and 'bruises.' To check hold them up to the light at about half arms length from your face, look down the bore and angle the barrel until you see the reflection of the light running down the length of the barrel. Rotate the barrel looking on both the inside and outside for any points where the beam narrows or thickens. If you own another shotgun, practice looking down those barrels to get your eye in. It takes time and at first you probably won't have a clue what you're looking at.

Ribs are fitted properly, i.e. no air gaps between the rib and barrel, in an ideal world they should be airtight to avoid moisture ingress. Older guns tend to have a bit of leakage, a sure sign of this is if a small hole has been drilled on the bottom rib or butt piece. This is the bodgeneer's way of sorting the problem out, it's done so you can squirt oil inside the barrels and keep them lubed up.

Plenty of wall thickness in the barrels is pretty vital, you don't want the expense of replacing them.

Tight joint between barrels and action, no rattles when it's open, no daylight between the barrels and the action face when it's closed. A little daylight between the flats of the barrels and the well of the action is ok.

Electors work and are in time together, take snap caps with you to test this. They should have enough throw to pop the caps out over your shoulder and both should land roughly in the same place. NB: Non electors don't sell as well but are worth looking at, they're especially good on walk up shoots where you need to pick up your cartridges.

While you've got the snap caps out, dry fire the gun a few times, make sure the trigger pulls aren't unduly heavy, see that it opens and closes nicely. If it's a Purdey style assisted opener, check this feels correct and isn't clunky, it should be easy to open but will be hard to close. If it's an H&H 'Rogers cocking' style it won't be as smooth.

Check that the strikers (firing pins to a military man) retract after each shot and sit flush with the action face. If they sit forward or rattle about, the return spring or striker itself might be broken.

Wood has no cracks or other heavy damage, a little wear is nice but you obviously want something with plenty of life left. Avoid very dark wood, especially if it is really dark around the hand, this can be a sign that oil has seeped in. There should be zero movement between the wood and the action.

Check the gun balances as close to 1/4" forward of the crosspin as possible, obviously stocks/barrels get changed over time and this isn't always possible. Close to the centre of the crosspin is OK, but of the balance point is just slightly forward of it, the gun will feel more agile in the swing.

Check the stock measurements feel comfy for you. Don't feel foolish swinging the gun around in the shop and pretending to shoot some birds. Make a few bang noises if you want, you'll feel more of a dick when you go on your first shoot and find the gun isn't comfy for you. Take into account what clothing you usually wear, if you always wear your favourite Barbour when you shoot, wear it when you try out the gun.

If it has interchangeable chokes, check they are properly lubricated and easily come out, you don't want one's that have rusted in.

Try to avoid single triggers, they always go wrong on older guns and are a nightmare to maintain.

That's about it really, obviously finding a perfect gun will be difficult and expensive but try to avoid any with really obvious snags. Some of the points above are fairly minor and you can probably live with them, just be careful, second hand gun dealers are like car dealers, many will **** you over given half the chance.

Have a skeg at the auctions too, often bargains to be had there.

If you require any tips on purchasing an OU or a foreign gun of any kind, please refer to my sig block.

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## Maca49

Elb I once owned about 30 old English SBS which I collected over many years, I have sold them on over the passed 20 years and have only two left, my great grandfathers single  barrelled Hollis hammer gun and my William Evans 1904 SBS, I'll post some photos later :Cool:

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## el borracho

I once had a beautiful Miroku u/o grade 3/5  benalli mi90 amongst others, all gone and I dont miss them at all . For me a time came where I realized I valued different things being a hunter and killing was defiantly  on the bottom of the list. Dogs and old traditional things taking a more senior place in the list nowadays  -bloody great getting older and appreciating things less commercial . I look forward to hearing about and seeing your guns .

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## Maca49

Much of my love of guns are old English shotguns and double rifles, they are absolutely works of art, :Cool:

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## Chop3r

I have done quite a few shotguns and at present have a Greener in the checkering cradle. The barrels have the look of damascus which are still to be blued but the action and associated trigger guard etc are complete. Heres a few photos for you, I hope. I was told that this was a greener as well but its not.






This one here shows before and after and I never did find out who the maker was.There was aname engraved on the action, one T R Mathews not Google didnt work for this one. Check out the butt plate


Before 





After

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## el borracho

those barrels on the box lock look very nice !   I have wondered if you can have the Damascus pattern on normal steel barrels ? Dont quote me on this but I know it is true for some Damascus guns that you can shoot a light skeet load through them . My Bonehill has a Damascus pattern also on the barrels and I shoot a light non black powder  load through it .The checkering on the first gun look nice , not real fine but well done .
The hammer gun looks like you have done a fair bit with the blueing of the action and barrel ? did you have this done or have a shot yourself -- trouble with some photos is they make an old gun appear blued when they possibly are not a before and after shots haha . The engraved butt plate is interesting and something you would imagine the Germans to do rather than the English ??? I did a seach on the name also but came up blank .Obviously some parts of shotguns were sent to other factories to be made and returned to the  Brand owners factory and assembled under their name even if the part has the actual manufacturer on it

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## Chop3r

I dont own either of the shotguns and the work was done in one case for a friend and in the second case for a customer. I think I have completed around 15 shotguns and rifles both bluing and stock jobs so far this year so it gets a wee bit busy in the shed at times.

Yep you can have the damascus pattern (patina?) on normal steel. As for the checkering, the panels on the double barreled shotgun were a recut of the original pattern and are flat topped cuts. Not that great in the field as the grip is not that great but thats what the English did.

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## Brian

I've got a db hammer gun with a similar butt plate but it's Bland and sons. I was told they were trade guns made with the retailers name on them.
Brought it for $5 second hand in the  chatams 1967. I haven't used it since I ran out of rabbit board ammo.

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## lophortyx

yes,i love my sxs.i have a good collection. just want to add a couple of comments to those of el barrocho. if you are buying an older gun,check carefully for pitting in the chambers and barrel. if the pitting is deep then this has a marked effect on the worth of a gun.minor pitting can be shot as is, or honed out but this is expensive and skilled work.hold the barrels by the hook and ring them.they should sound clear.if they sound dull,check out the rib.if it is loose, then is likely that there will be other issues, ie hidden rust between barrels, or someone has araldited up a loose rib. avoid such a gun as to get this work properly done is expensive and very skilled work.if you really like a gun get a real gunsmith to check it over. i have had a lot of fun shooting my guns.for upland i like 26 inch barrels,30 inch are fine for waterfowl.i use guagemates 12-16ga, these allow me to use 16 ga ammo and these are very effective. the guagemates fit into all my sxs so i can shoot hammerguns etc. and be legal. also many sxs stocks are oil soaked. if you submerge them in white spirits for a month or more then let it dry out.then submerge it in boiling water with a bit of detergent for 5 minutes at a time, you will be suprised how clean it comes up and how all the bumps and dents have disappeared.many a good gun was made outside london. nothing beats shooting than using a piece of real history between your hands to do it.it adds so much to the experience.

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## Chop3r

Yep the first shotgun shown had a loose rib but the customer didnt want to get it fixed and can understand that, as you say it is expensive plus it would have needed another blue job for the barrels. That in itself is no great drama but is a pain in the arse. I only noticed it when I could see water seeping out when the barrels came out of the hot water tank 
I do have set of barrels from a Greener that are stuffed and they also have a loose rib so will give that a try later on in resoldering that rib, cant stuff it up any more :Psmiley:

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## el borracho

I took the JD Dougal that I posted on another post here to Robert Dollimore and he noted the barrels had come unstuck but someone had tried a repair .He made a comment about the rust causing holes that you might not see until they breach the wall -that would be very dangerous .Also he said about "tinning" the barrels where there is a line of solder the length of the barrels between them and the rib which means the rust cannot penetrate that area -a poorly tinned gun would likely rust if there was any parting of the tubes and rib .

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## el borracho

> yes,i love my sxs.i have a good collection. just want to add a couple of comments to those of el barrocho. if you are buying an older gun,check carefully for pitting in the chambers and barrel. if the pitting is deep then this has a marked effect on the worth of a gun.minor pitting can be shot as is, or honed out but this is expensive and skilled work.hold the barrels by the hook and ring them.they should sound clear.if they sound dull,check out the rib.if it is loose, then is likely that there will be other issues, ie hidden rust between barrels, or someone has araldited up a loose rib. avoid such a gun as to get this work properly done is expensive and very skilled work.if you really like a gun get a real gunsmith to check it over. i have had a lot of fun shooting my guns.for upland i like 26 inch barrels,30 inch are fine for waterfowl.i use guagemates 12-16ga, these allow me to use 16 ga ammo and these are very effective. the guagemates fit into all my sxs so i can shoot hammerguns etc. and be legal. also many sxs stocks are oil soaked. if you submerge them in white spirits for a month or more then let it dry out.then submerge it in boiling water with a bit of detergent for 5 minutes at a time, you will be suprised how clean it comes up and how all the bumps and dents have disappeared.many a good gun was made outside london. nothing beats shooting than using a piece of real history between your hands to do it.it adds so much to the experience.


Is that right you can submerge the stock for a month in white spirits without any damage tot he wood ?? I would like to do this with my Charles Lancaster as it could certainly loose some "black " out of the wood . Today I had a chat with a smith friend of mine about getting ridd of any pitting from the outer barrel . I mentioned I had purchased a bench grinder which I was going to mount a buffing pad with cutting compound to buff the pitt out as I had seen done --well fuck me days did I get an earful !!!  He informed me that no good gunsmith does this and they all use files and I guess fine abrasive paper with a final finnish of 400 grit . I started my barrels with 320 grit and have removed most of the black and pitts for that matter and over the next few days will bring the Finnish to a 800 grit shine before having them hot blued .
Does anyone know what barrels can and cannot be hot blued because of the way they were done and their age ??or doesn't it matter

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## john m

My old SxS.

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## el borracho

A bit of history on E Patton the maker of this hammer gun above that I found on another forum .

Edward Paton was born in 1819 in Dublin, Ireland. In 1843 he took over the business of Robert Ancell of 44 George Street, Perth, this business had been founded in 1833.

Edward married in about 1846, the name of his wife is unknown. They had a son in 1847, Edward L Paton (Edward II) (b.1847 in Malta, and a daughter, Emma (b.1849 in England and notably not in Scotland!). No other children have been traced. It seems likely that Edward (I)'s wife died soon after 1949.

Reportedly, in 1854 Edward (I) made Charles Frederick Walsh a partner in the business and the firm became Paton & Walsh. This has not been confirmed, but on 12 September 1856 Paton & Walsh patented a type of rifling for a winged or ribbed bullet. On 12 December 1856 they patented an apparatus for charging and capping the nipples of firearms, this consisted of a metal tube containing another metal tube with a needle actuated by a spring. It injected powder into the touch-hole after a miss-fire.

Reportedly, Walsh left the partnership in 1858 and the firm again traded as Edward Paton.

In the 1861 census Edward (I) was recorded at an unspecified address in Perth with Edward (II) and Emma. At the time he employed 7 men and 2 boys. The firm became known for their conversions of muzzle-loaders to breech-loaders.

In about 1865, if not before, in addition to the main shop at 44 George Street, Perth, Edward opened a branch at Highland Club Buildings, Inverness. How long this branch remained open is not known.

In about 1870, Edward (I) was appointed Gunmaker to His Royal Highness The Prince Consort.

By 1870 the firm had been re-named Edward Paton & Son; it seems that Edward (II), ran the Inverness business while Edward (I) moved to London to open a new shop at 108 Mount Street, Grosvenor Square. At this time the firm finished guns for Boss & Co. This London shop may later have been managed by W H Watts, formerly a gunmaker in Winchester, Hampshire, and later a gunmaker at 54a Marshall Street, London. In the 1871 census Edward (II) was recorded in Inverness, he described himself as a master gun maker employing 6 men and 3 boys.

In the 1881 census Edward (II)'s address was given as 13 Athole Street, Perth. By this time he was married to Mary (b.1855) and their children were, Edward L (Edward (III) (b.1873), Mary E (b.1875), Robert M (b.1876), George S (b.1878), and Harry A (b.1879). All were born in Perth. The same census records Edward (I) as a widower living at 10 Argyle Road, Ealing, London. He described himself as a gunmaker employing 7 men and 3 boys (presumably one of the men was employed in London and the remainder and the boys were a duplication of the employees in Scotland).

In 1882 in Inverness, the firm opened a branch at 37 Church Street (one report states 38 Church Street). In about 1886 the Church Street branch moved to High Street (no number stated), Inverness.

The London gunmaker, Stephen Grant, was recorded in about 1883 at 39 High Street, Inverness. This branch of the firm was reportedly managed in the late 1880s by Richard Henry Grant who, in 1889 would have been only 17 years old. The branch probably closed in about 1890. It would appear that either at the same time or shortly after the branch was established, Stephen Grant and James Woodward formed the Grant & Woodward shooting agency. In doing this Grant & Woodward would have been in direct competition with Edward Paton, this would not have pleased the Patons.

In 1884 in London, Edward Paton's shooting agency and gun making business moved to 99 Mount Street. In 1885 they moved to 88 St James's Street.

In 1890 David Crockart of Perth bought Edward Paton's business at 44 George Street, Inverness. The Inverness branch appears to have closed at this time.

In the 1891 census Edward (I) was recorded as an estate agent (not retired estate agent) aged 72, he was living in lodgings. There appears to be no census or other record of Edward (II) or his wife, Mary, in Scotland or elsewhere.

It would seem that Edward (I) retired or died in the 1890s or early in the 1900s, possibly in 1902 because in that year the business moved to 35a St James's Place, and an additional office was recorded at 5 St James's Place. It seems that Robert Michael Paton took over the business. In 1902 Stephen Woodward retired, at some time he had taken over from Charles Woodward.

In 1929 the firm moved to 37 Bury Street.

In December 1943 the firm was sold by Robert Michael Paton for Â£250 to Stephen Grant & Joseph Lang Ltd, they amalgamated it with their own Grant & Woodward shooting agency which was re-named Paton Grant & Woodward.

In 1959 Strutt & Parker, Lofts & Warner (estate agents) bought the business.

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## el borracho

Can you still shoot it ??

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## john m

Yes it shoots and regulates well with a nitro for black load the barrels are mint.

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## el borracho

that must be quite a thrill using that fine gun to take game . i have a hammer shotgun DAMASCUS barrels I will shoot a pheasant with this year and am looking forward to it -sad its only a liege gun from Belgium  of no note

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## john m

It is a very satisfying to use a gun made 140 years or so ago and do with it what the maker intended when it left his shop. I think E Payton & Son would be pleased. It's not something I use often as it needs to be looked after for the next owner and I see no reason it cant still kill deer in another 140 years.

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## lophortyx

if the ribs are braised you will be able to hot blue,but this is most unusual.most ribs/barrels are soldiered, so to hot blue them would be a disaster.

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## Chop3r

You need to be carefull as most of the early shotguns are soldered together and hot bluing get too hot and the barrels fall apart which is not the desired result. If your friend metioned only going to a 400 finish then I would suggest that the original blue was a rust blue

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## el borracho

Interesting as far as the braise and solder -how do you tell which is what ? Also the grain of the abrasive , when do you go past the 400 grit ? I have successfully stipped my barrels right back with 320 and tonight will do a 400grit wet and dry rub and then onto 800 .

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## Chop3r

If it is a rust blue that you are using then you are wasting your time going to 800, to be blunt the rust might not even take on such polished steel. 400 grade is max and 360 is better.
 You only want to be going to 800 or finer, 1000, 1200 etc if you are hot bluing. You are using wet and dry paper?

You can rust blue any shotgun but you can only hot blue shotguns with a braised rib and for myself I work on the reasoning that any S x S is soldered unless it is a very modern S x S. Solder is silver in colour and brasing is a bronzy, yellow colour

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## lophortyx

if you look at the barrel end,give them an emery polish if necessary,you can tell if they are braised or soldiered.if only silver which i can almost guarantee it will be, it is soldiered,if you can see bronze/brass colour it is braised,but like chop3r says it is fatal to make a mistake and have them hot blued,the barrels just come apart. also in my previous post about soaking oil soaked wood, that should read acetone, not white spirits. white spirits is alright for short immersions,but acetone for long soaks,also remove the finish first with paint stripper etc.

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## Chop3r

> if you look at the barrel end,give them an emery polish if necessary,you can tell if they are braised or soldiered.if only silver which i can almost guarantee it will be, it is soldiered,if you can see bronze/brass colour it is braised,but like chop3r says it is fatal to make a mistake and have them hot blued,the barrels just come apart. also in my previous post about soaking oil soaked wood, that should read *acetone*, not white spirits. white spirits is alright for short immersions,but acetone for long soaks,also remove the finish first with paint stripper etc.


I was going to say something :Have A Nice Day:  It would be a very oily stock to need that treatment but it can happen. Gun oil has a lot to answer for

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## el borracho

great info guys ! im definitely soldered as i can see silver on the side of the rib . ill take the finish back a little from 8 to 360 ! the action i have on the C Osbourne action -may have called it a C lancaster at some stage - looks like the last owner hit it with a buff -badly also . i would like to get a consistent finish on the metal work . would you suggest wet and dry ?

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## Toby

This thread almost made me start cleaning up my old SxS since I got it working properly. But I don't have checkering tools or know how to checker yet. I might borrow the engaver from school and go over the old worn out engraving though and have a go at blueing the old metal.

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## el borracho

> This thread almost made me start cleaning up my old SxS since I got it working properly. But I don't have checkering tools or know how to checker yet. I might borrow the engaver from school and go over the old worn out engraving though and have a go at blueing the old metal.


Toby , start engraving on an old bit of metal as it takes alot of practice and you should do the same before checkering to . im going to do some checkering but fist have to make myself believe i will have the patience to Finnish it!!

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## Chop3r

Yes to the wet and dry sandpaper and do use it with water and or thin oil as it cuts better. Couple of tips, the use of latex gloves is well worth considering especially if you are doing a lot of steel prep and do use backing on any sandpaper

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## Chop3r

> Toby , start engraving on an old bit of metal as it takes alot of practice and you should do the same before checkering to . im going to do some checkering but fist have to make myself believe i will have the patience to Finnish it!!


And first you have to make the cutter to do that flat top checkering as you cant buy them. There are ways around that though

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## Shamus

> And first you have to make the cutter to do that flat top checkering as you cant buy them. There are ways around that though


I have seen more than one nice shotgun ruined by a so called 'restoration' job and one thing that really sticks out is when the original flat top checking has been redone with a Dembart checkering tool  :Sad:

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## el borracho

Know your limits ! I think that fixes many things Shamus lol but have a go if the gun isnt worth your  house .  What file do you use to take out pits in a barrel ?

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## el borracho

In fact not only which file do you use to take pitting out with but where do you buy a screw driver for the very fine screw openings the english cut for their guns .I have had not lucK even with a Brownells gunsmithing screw drivers-Nothing fine enough and wide enough ?????????

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## lophortyx

brownwells do a fine english gunmakiing tip set.order that. the one you have got is fine for rifles and american shotguns,but english and european shotguns have finer scew slots.its a lot of fun restoring old guns and it certainly enhances skill levels and appreciation for the craftsmen that handmade these guns, but also be respectful of the worn patina some of these guns have developed/earnt. do not destroy or bodge this away. if it is an honest gun just enjoy it. if has seen better days,ie needs bluing,restoration work then undertake it,but don't make those long gone tradesmen turn in their grave. save your practise for old wall hangers. also hot bluing is fine for the rest of your guns furniture,ie trigger guard ,top lever,screws escutchens etc. many older guns have been reblued ,refinished many times.in such cases the wood gets worn so that the metal becomes proud.you can reinlet the wood etc. or just leave it as is.i have an 1877 hammergun with a beautifully figured walnut stock,well shot but honest.so i have left it as is. i have shoot many  trap loads through it even though it is BP only. always check chamber size ,many old guns are chambered for 2 and half. yes, it probably won't blow on you if you put in a 2and 3/4 shell,but it will certainly boot and it is very hard on the action which it will eventually destroy. never take the risk.

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## el borracho

thanks good advice! 

last night i purchased two Spanish made guns , both with the label Sabel. Gunmark in the UK back in the 70s I believe decided to make an English styled at a fraction of the cost of an actual English one and went to Spain to do so .
Very interesting bunch they used to build these guns and all but one are considered the Best Gun Makers in Spain and around the world"there are bar one being Gorsable .

 Aguirre y Aranzabal (AyA), Arrieta y Cia, Pedro Arrizabalaga, Armas Garbi, and Grulla Armas , these 5 names represent the best of the Spanish builders which I will alter to Basque builder as they are only called Spanish having been conquered for the first time in known history in the Franco Spanish revolution .

I happened to live there in the region for 3 season working on the coast in the surfing industry .Of these famous gun maker names Gunmark had three of them build guns for them .

 Now I had seen a Sabel on trade me some time back and I did not know its worth and had never heard of it before but it stuck in my mind as it was a very attractive looking gun with some nice engraving for the price but sadly was a right hander .
On my searching for UK guns I encountered alot of them again and liked what I saw for the price point -not being a man of wealth one must be selective in ones purchases !
What really got me going though was starting to read the history of the gun and its makers . Arrieta y Cia, Pedro Arrizabalaga, Armas Garbi, three of the real biggies all made models and they all are guns of great value in that they are way less expensive for the English equal  -so I purchased 2 , an  Arrieta and a Garbi . Im afraid the images are not the best and one the images were not down loadable from the site but Ia will post once they arrive . I have pulled a little info from around other sites about these guns if anyone is interested in the history of this brand .The guns I have are Royale's

The Sabel range of sidelocks were made for Gunmark by Arrietta, Garbi and Gorosabel. I have an advert from Sporting Gun magazine (UK) December 1979 in front of me. The Black Sabel D/L with 27 inch barrels is shown as being made by Garbi while the Sabel 27 and Sabel 25 are shown as built by Arrietta (that's how it is spelt in 1979) and are quote "The most popular sidelocks in our middle price bracket."
Price for all three models in 1979 was GBP 570. Gough Thomas was very favourably impressed with the overall quality of the Sabel sidelocks. I have owned a Sabel 25 made by Arrietta which was marked Sabel 25 which was a very nice gun. In May whilst in England I bought a Gold Sabel, made by Garbi 27 inch barrels 1/4 and 1/2 choke easy opener modelled on the H&H Royal. In 1989 the Gold Sabel retailed (exc. tax) for GBP 3400 at which time an AYA model 1 sold in the UK for GBP 2500. Other models were the Imperial (Arrietta) Royal (Garbi) similar to the Gold but without the easy opener, Crown (Arrietta) and Silver Sabel (Gorosabel). By 1989 there was also a Gunmark Regale 27" which retailed for GBP 5400 I don't know who the maker was.

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## el borracho

Another review of these gun 


Previous Page
Gunmark 12-Bore Royale

Mark Stone looks at a pre-owned game gun thats a bit of a classic - the Gunmark Royale

If its a classic side-by-side youre after along with a decent slice of shotgunning history at a price that wont break the bank, head north to Bond & Bywaters in Preston and buy yourself the second-hand Gunmark Royale currently adorning their racks for the princely sum of £1,200. Not only will you get yourself a truly elegant game gun but one with a distinctly interesting heritage (but phone first to make sure the gun is still there!)

Originally built back in 1975, the Gunmark Royales were a range of Spanish built shotguns manufactured as the name would suggest on behalf of Gunmark  a company now better known as GMK. These shotguns were built to a very specific high quality English style and based on the Anson & Deeley sidelock action. Nothing especially unusual or new in this arrangement; numerous companies apply their name to a range of shotguns or rifles, the end result usually a high quality gun that can be offered at a slightly reduced cost given that its not theoretically a prestige name.

Produced by two well known manufacturers, the name Royale was chosen to differentiate between their shotguns and the Royal as offered by one of Londons premier gunmakers, it was considered that the addition of the letter e sufficient to ensure potential customers could determine the difference. Another major factor was that the original Royales retailed out for around the £1,000 mark whilst you could easily add at least another nought for the similarly named London best.

Arrieta and Garbi

However, history as we known doesnt always run smoothly and without going into great detail, the time eventually came when the e was insufficient and the Gunmark Royale ceased production albeit in name only. The good news is that occasionally a single or a matched pair of these guns hits the market just as this 12-bore did a few weeks ago.

More or less identical in looks, it was both the Arrieta and Garbi companies who produced these sideplate shotguns originally, with colour case hardened actions and both with engraving designed by the Giovanelli Studio who produced the plates. Although the actions eventually changed from case hardened to the more familiar brightwork, the game scenes continued, the gun you see here with flighting ducks on the left sideplate of the action, woodcock on the right and partridges on the base.

In most respects the actual manufacturer of each Gunmark Royale is relatively immaterial, given that these shotguns were built to a predetermined pattern. However, if you favour one over the other, all you need to do is take a quick look at the barrel flats. If the letters AR precede the serial number its an Arrieta, GA if its one of Garbis, as per the Royale you see here.
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Starting from the small brass bead that sits atop the ½ and ¼ chokes muzzles, the 28 barrels are well blued and in virtually new condition, the words Gunmark Royale in gold discreetly set into the concaved rib just forward of the external chamber and forcing cone taper. Apart from the heavy scroll engraved fences and game scenes, the sideplates, action floor, face and black top lever are once again as new, no hint of heavy usage or that the removable strikers have actually been extracted.

The well figured woodwork is undamaged, the semi-oiled finish still in excellent condition as is the chequering on the forend, grip and heel of the stock. Equally the small escutcheon still awaits the initials of its next owner, the previous holder electing not to personalise this particular 12-bore.

In the field

Anyone whose sport takes them after driven or walked-up game will immediately feel a familiarity with the Royale. Fast handling combined with the pointability that all side-by-sides of this ilk embody. A comfortably chequered straight stock and forend allow the user to switch rapidly between targets, whilst sliding the hand quickly down the grip for the finger to acquire the second trigger.

Shot over two round of Sporting, the first noticeable aspect of the Royale was that although this shotgun is chambered for most 2¾ rounds, those such as the hard hitting Express Super Game certainly make their presence felt. Although the Royale more than handled these potent loads, eradicating some fast flying targets in the process, it was a change to the Express Paper Case Game cartridges that showed the Royale off to its best.

Combined with these more traditional game loads, the Royale was a genuine pleasure to shoot. The guns ability on sporting style clays gives an indication of its competence as a lightweight, all-round game gun, this shotguns true purpose in life. When you combine this aptitude with the guns traditional looks, the sidelock action, drop points, detailed engraving and feel, it comes as a surprise that the previous owner actually wanted to part company with it in the first place.

If any slight criticism could be commented on - and its more down to my fingers than anything else - its that when pulling the second or rear trigger, the recoil, although virtually absent from my shoulder with the Paper Case Game loads, still forced the first or forward trigger back into my finger. In all probability this small inconvenience would be overcome by seeking out the services of a suitably qualified gunsmith or by wearing shooting gloves. Whatever the cure, this certainly wouldnt deter me from buying the Royale.
Gun Mart Shooters Forum - Get Involved in the Discussion!

Going for new

If your wallet allows and youre unable to source a second-hand example, its still more than possible to acquire an Arrieta that is more or less identical to the Royale, as GMK still import these beautifully built side-by-side shotguns. Called the Viscount and the Crown, the first is scroll engraved in traditional English style whilst the latter is a superbly proportioned round actioned gun.

Considered the equal of AyAs much revered No.2, these Arrietas start at around £3,000 and are available in 12, 16, 20 and 28 gauge along with .410 with barrel lengths of 28 and 30. Equally, for an additional 10% and a few months wait, either a single gun or a matched pair can be made to measure.

Conclusions

Timeless in looks and handling, this Garbi built Royale is available at a price that should see it quickly settled into its next owners gun cabinet. If not this particular example then any other Gunmark Royale should immediately become the focus of serious attention for any lover of classically proportioned shotguns, that will readily hold their own on the grouse moor of pheasant drive. All in at £1,200 this Royales a gift, given the guns quality and overall condition.

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## el borracho

> *brownwells do a fine english gunmakiing tip set.order that.* the one you have got is fine for rifles and american shotguns,but english and european shotguns have finer scew slots.its a lot of fun restoring old guns and it certainly enhances skill levels and appreciation for the craftsmen that handmade these guns, but also be respectful of the worn patina some of these guns have developed/earnt. do not destroy or bodge this away. if it is an honest gun just enjoy it. if has seen better days,ie needs bluing,restoration work then undertake it,but don't make those long gone tradesmen turn in their grave. save your practise for old wall hangers. also hot bluing is fine for the rest of your guns furniture,ie trigger guard ,top lever,screws escutchens etc. many older guns have been reblued ,refinished many times.in such cases the wood gets worn so that the metal becomes proud.you can reinlet the wood etc. or just leave it as is.i have an 1877 hammergun with a beautifully figured walnut stock,well shot but honest.so i have left it as is. i have shoot many  trap loads through it even though it is BP only. always check chamber size ,many old guns are chambered for 2 and half. yes, it probably won't blow on you if you put in a 2and 3/4 shell,but it will certainly boot and it is very hard on the action which it will eventually destroy. never take the risk.


ive looked on the brownells site but cannot fine anything that implies English set??can you post a link please

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## lophortyx

brownwells,gunsmithing tools, thin - bit magna tip, 080-120-000wb. its is complimentrary with the other set. good bit on the sable's. yes i remember the one on trademe.it looked a good gun but then he was asking a good price. i take it you have read terry weilands "spanish best", that certainly whets the appetitite for some spanish steel. if someone can lead me to the place where it shows you how to post photos i'll put up some of mine.

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## el borracho

when you post a reply go to "go advanced" on the bottom right --from there go to "manage attachments-the that will take you to add files top left -clik select file and press open --keep pressing select for each new photo and upload-one Finnish press done and press submit reply

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## Maca49

1904 William Evans restocked by Kevin Gaskill grade 5 webley scott action I believe

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## el borracho

beautiful!! nice engraving and nice choice of wood to restock with, thanks for posting

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## Maca49

Note the "From Purdy" Williams Evans got excommunicated from Purdy for dirty deeds I believe, so added this to get up them

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## el borracho

seriously!!! funny

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## Maca49

Had to restock it as I dropped it and splayed the original stock, which had been repaired once before :O O:

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## Shamus

Had this one for about 25 years - not English or Spanish ...

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## Maca49

China? :Wtfsmilie:

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## el borracho

Japanese

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## el borracho

do tell where is it from . obviously an expensive gun from whatever country

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## Shamus

> do tell where is it from . obviously an expensive gun from whatever country


Auguste-Lebeau, Belgium

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## el borracho

funny just tonight i was discussing guns from there with a guy that collects English guns . we were saying they were more known for average trade guns than best guns but that's looking pretty "best' at a glance!! show it in all its glory with a few more shots please

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## el borracho

A little something of interest with making turn screw tools

(Author’s note: this story was first published in Shooting Sportsman Magazine and is presented in as a chapter in my book Double Guns and Custom Gunsmithing.)

I was torn between desire and hesitation when contemplating this subject— gunsmithing screwdrivers. Desire, because I’m always interested in spreading knowledge about gunmaking and screwdrivers have not gotten a lot of ink in the past. Hesitation, because of educating—or encouraging—friends like Ian, who freely admits “a screwdriver becomes a dangerous weapon in my hands.”
Three of my friends have different skill levels with screwdrivers. Ian owns a set and is justifiably afraid of using them on his guns. Tim has a passable set, with blades I ground for him, and can mount a scope, remove a sidelock, or tighten a loose screw—though when I’m in his gun room he’s apt to say, “Here, you do it.” Ross, on the other hand, takes great pleasure in “raccooning” his shotguns. Thankfully, he doesn’t bugger his screws, and he’ll bring a problem gun to my shop before messing it up
I’ll issue a warning: The surest way to screw up a perfectly good gun is to forcefully apply chisel-like instruments to its external surfaces. At the very least, those thin, crisp screw slots can get buggered. Much more frightening is the possibilities of gouged lockplates, furrowed stocks, or screw heads so badly damaged they must be drilled out to be replaced. I’ve seen all these things result from good-intentioned but incautious disassembly.
#5 Buggered Screws-
Buggered and misaligned screws mar this otherwise lovely Austrian double gun.

My desire to provide information about screwdrivers comes also from the number of loose screws I see in pride-and-joy shotguns and the limited access to competent gunsmiths to tighten them. I’ve also seen a few cracked stocks because the tang screws had shot loose. Wouldn’t it be great if you could feel confident about tightening loose screws?
Most side-by-side shotguns have a similar number of screws in similar locations that fasten metal parts to each other and to the stock. Most screws have fine slots and should be installed tightly to prevent them from shooting loose.
We use screwdrivers, or turnscrews as some smiths refer to them, to install and remove screws. (A gunsmith’s joke: What’s the difference between a screwdriver and a turnscrew? About forty-five bucks!) The screwdriver rack above my bench holds nearly two dozen mismatched tools, some of which I use every day. Besides those, I have a set of precision jeweler’s screwdrivers with tiny blades, a bench block with another assortment of bits, several long-shank (ten inches to twelve inches) drivers for stock through-bolts, Phillips blades for removing recoil pads, and a drawer full of specially ground blades for specific applications.
Each screwdriver has a handle, a shank, and a blade. The handles are wood, metal, or plastic and should be proportional to the blade size to allow the application of proper torque to the screw head. I prefer wooden handles because I occasionally use them to tap gun parts into or out of place.
#2 Screwdrivers many-
Screwdrivers come in all shapes and sizes as shown in this portion of the author’s collection.

Most shanks vary in length from 3/4 inches to five inches and are round, rectangular, or octagonal in cross section. Round shanks are best for removing deeply recessed screws as they are less likely to mar the edges of the holes. Round shanks are also proper for removing recoil pads that are slit—as opposed to having removable plugs—for access to the screw heads. A wrench can be used with a rectangular or octagonal shank to increase torque, but this can be dangerous. I have no idea why shanks come in different lengths, but I like the shorter type—no more than three inches—because I prefer to stay close to the work.
Each blade is ground to fit a different screw head, slot depth, and width. Most blades are hollow-ground on both sides. Hollow-grinding makes the best blades for gun screws because the slots are cut with parallel sides; a properly hollow-ground bit also has parallel sides and will fill up the slot. It is equally important that the driver blade match the width of the screw head. It is less likely to slip out of the slot while transferring maximum force because it contacts both sides of the slot for its full width and depth.
For example, a screw with a 3/16-inch head and a .020-inch slot 1/8 inch deep should be matched with a .020-inch blade just shy of 3/16 inches wide that will fit snugly to the bottom of the slot. If the blade is too thin, or if it doesn’t contact the full width of the head or reach to the bottom of the slot, it is more likely to slip out and bugger the head or damage the gun. If the blade is even a tiny bit too wide, it can mar the surrounding metal when it’s placed into the slot.
I looked at several assortments of professional-quality gunsmithing screwdrivers in the Brownells catalog for this story. The Browning set is an economical starter set, made by Grace, and so named because the drivers were made to fit the Browning Auto-5, which, for a factory gun, has relatively fine-slotted screws. The five wooden-handled screwdrivers range in blade width from .200 inches to .275 inches and are ground from .022 inches to .030 inches thick. Unfortunately, they are not thin enough for most British and European screw slots. Through the years I’ve reground several of these sets for friends to match the slots of their favorite guns. If you know a sympathetic gunsmith or are handy, the low price plus regrinding will get you into the ball game.
These Browning drivers have square shanks, are forged of quality steel, and are appropriately hardened. I’ve used them for nearly two decades and have reground them many times. I suggest adding one smaller and one larger width and grinding them to fit the trigger guard and main tang screw (breech pin) of your favorite double. The screwdrivers are available individually or in sets from Brownells, Inc.
Brownells offers a mind-boggling assortment of screwdrivers for the gunsmith. Their “house brand,” Magna-Tip, employs separate handles and possibly one hundred bits that can be purchased individually or in sets. The bits are well made, precisely ground, and properly hardened. Each has a short six-sided section that slips into a magnetic socket on the handle shank.
I enjoy having a wide variety of bits available, and with three separate handles, I’m not changing them all the time. I do prefer fixed-blade drivers for stubborn screws, as there is some wobble with the bits and standard handles. Brownells offers a locking collet-type handle that holds the bits more positively, although they don’t interchange as quickly because the collet must be hand-tightened.
The most useful screwdrivers for double-gunners come in the Magna-Tip Thin Bit set. With eighteen bits in nine widths and .020-inch- or .025-inch-thick blades, these are the closest to correct size of any I’ve found. For the most part, this set will work well for the screws of many American-made doubles.

#1Screwdrivers-
A large selection of Brownells Magna-Tip screwdriver bits with many specially ground to fit thin slotted screws.

Brownells also offers the Forester-Bonanza set, with round shanks and blades from .023 inches to .035 inches. This set has been a useful part of my screwdriver collection for many years and offers the only through-bolt, extra-long-shank screwdriver I know of.
Pachmayr sells a Professional set of interchangeable-bit drivers. The plastic-boxed kit includes twelve straight-slot, seven Allen-head, six Phillips-head and three Torx-head bits. The slotted bits are .125 inches to .400 inches wide and the blades from .017 inches to .055 inches thick, with the wide ones having the thicker blades. This makes a good travel set for factory guns. The slotted heads could be custom-ground to fit your guns.
Unfortunately, none of these screwdrivers have fine enough blades for many of the screws on imported doubles.
I’ve seen various screwdrivers made in England and offered in this country as “gunmaker’s” or “best grade” or as rosewood- or ebony-handled masterpieces to grace felt-lined gun cases. I’ve heard that the drivers sold in the U.S. as the gunmaker’s variety are considered cabinetmakers’ tools in England; the published blade thicknesses I’ve seen were too coarse for British guns. In my experience, the fancy-handled, cased-set variety are of fine quality but aren’t ground for use, although they could be. Galazan offers a London Best working set I haven’t seen or used, and the catalog honestly states, “All are hollow ground on one side to facilitate custom grinding.”
The process of measuring screw-slot width is difficult and even dangerous. Using the pointed prongs of dial calipers (which are very sharp and will readily scratch gunmetal), I have carefully measured slots as thin as .012 inches. If you are going to attempt this, first practice on screw slots that aren’t in a gun. Then, after you’ve mastered the technique, secure your gun in a cradle so you have both hands to guide the calipers. I wouldn’t think of trying this without my magnifying visor on.
I prefer to determine slot width first by eyeballing, then by carefully trying different blades until I find the one that fits perfectly. You’re less likely to scratch the gun by tipping one edge of the blade into the slot. Once the thickness is determined, find a blade that is nearly as wide as the screw head. Never use a 1/8-inch bit in a 1/4-inch screw even if the slot-to-blade thickness is a perfect match. Maximum force is generated at the outer edges of the screwdriver, and buggering is achieved by using a narrow blade in a wide head.
Of course there are no standard slot sizes except in screws on machine-made American guns. To establish trends in slot sizes, I called gunsmith Pete Mazur, who has experience with doubles from all over the world. Mazur suggests that American screw slots are usually .020 inches to .040 inches; most English, Spanish, and German slots are from .015 inches to .030 inches, with some thinner; and Italian slots are the thinnest, at .010 inches to .015 inches. Keep in mind that these are only guidelines and that you can’t readily buy drivers for most of these screws.
Chances are, if you’ve purchased some screwdrivers, or bits, the blades don’t fit the screws of your double gun. They must be ground to fit. If you’re not handy enough to regrind blades, you should think twice about using them on a fine gun. You can always ask a gunsmith to tighten the screws or to grind the blades.
I regrind blades and Magna-Tip bits with a rotary stone chucked in a drill press. Brownells sells a large stone (1 1/2 inches in diameter) for Magna-Tip bits and a smaller stone (5/8 inch) for fixed or ultra-thin blades. I’ve found Brownells grinding stones to be aggressive and true, and they don’t load up with metal chips. These stones work well for hollow-grinding any screwdriver blades.
Brownells’ suggestion of holding bits in a drill press vise often works well. Some bits, however, have their hexagonal section askew to the flat of the blade and are difficult to hold in a vise. These bits I carefully handhold against the grinding wheel, as I do with screwdrivers with attached handles.
For those without a drill press, the grinding wheel can be chucked in an electric drill, which then can be securely held in a bench vise. If the grinding wheel isn’t firmly planted, it isn’t possible to correctly and efficiently grind screwdriver blades.
#3 Screwdriver Grinding-
One method of grinding bits to perfectly fit screw slots is chucking a rotary stone in a drill press and clamping the driver bit in a small vise.

Here’s how I do it: The larger grinding wheel is installed in the drill press chuck and key tightened. At the workbench, I clamp the driver bit in a small drill press vise, aligning the ground part of the bit perfectly vertical by holding a square to the bench top. I place the vise on the drill press table, then raise the table until the ground section of the bit is level with the middle of the grinding wheel. I then lock the table at this height.
It is important to note which direction the drill chuck is rotating and to make sure the bit only touches the wheel as it turns away from the tip. In other words, the wheel should sweep away the metal from the shank toward the tip of the bit. This means holding the bit on the right front side of the wheel in a drill press. If the tip is facing into the rotation, the bit could dig into the wheel and cause major problems. This works the same on any grinder; the wheel should rotate away from the tip of the bit. I adjust the speed to a relatively slow setting.
With dial calipers, I measure and note the thickness of the tip before grinding. I determine the desired finished thickness and divide it by two, as half of the metal must come off each side of the bit. (For example, to take a .025-inch-thick bit to .015 inches, I remove .005 inches from each side.) Always wearing safety glasses, I move the bit into the wheel, lightly starting the contact toward the rear of the ground area. I adjust the attitude until the ground section is fully contacting the wheel. Then I back it off and take a look at what’s happening.

#6 Hand Grinding-
The author carefully hand-grinds a driver bit to size.

The ground area should show an even, shiny surface where the bit was ground by the wheel. If not, I adjust the bit in the vise so there is even contact between the wheel and the bit. With gentle pressure, I’ll grind the desired amount from one side of the bit. (I verify this by measuring the tip with the calipers.) Then I’ll turn the bit over in the vise and grind the other side equally.
As a final step, I take a small sharpening stone—one I’d use for a pocketknife—and lightly dress each newly ground edge to remove any burrs that might scratch gunmetal.
Some points to remember: It’s a good idea to do a dry run without the wheel in motion. Always approach the wheel carefully and use gentle pressure when grinding. Grind lightly on the first pass to make sure the bit is truly aligned with the wheel. Check both the top and bottom of the tip with calipers to ensure even thickness. It takes less than a minute per side to remove .005 inches of metal from a wide blade. A narrow blade will grind much quicker and is more difficult to position. If you stop to check the evenness of the grinding and the thickness as you go, the bit won’t get very hot. Heat will draw the temper if it’s enough to change the color of the steel. I find grinding a hand-held bit much easier. Then again, my hand-eye coordination is fine-tuned daily, and I wear 4X magnifiers.
As I mentioned earlier, if you don’t have screwdrivers, I would recommend the Brownells Magna-Tip Thin Bit set for starters. Again, the eighteen bits come in .020 inch and .025 inch thicknesses, and I suggest grinding six or seven of the .025-inch bits down to .015 inches. Better yet, custom-grind them to fit your shotgun’s screws. Adding more bits for special applications is easy, and you can get them all in one place.
015 tip-
This bit has been carefully ground to a thin .017” to fit a screw for a Continental shotgun.

In sum, with English, Spanish, and most Continental guns, you will need different width blades, most ground to a thickness of about .015 inches. This is thin, but the slots on many Italian guns are even thinner. For most American guns, a variety of widths with blades .020 to .025 inches thick will work fine.
-END-

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## Chop3r

All of my screw drivers have been hollow ground and if you want to get some in NZ then go to Outdoor Supplies, they have several different brands for sale

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## el borracho

its the english fine screws that are the problem to find one fore . wide enough and thin enough --have you also ground your pwn to suit?

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## Toby

Do those wheeler sets have the right screw heads?

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## el borracho

heads would be fine but with the English guns some of the screw slots a very fine and a standard screw driver will not do the job and even damage the screw -something youd think would be so simple suddenly is hard without the correct hard to find bit

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## lophortyx

i have tried to upload some photos,but no success.anyway a little history of my shotgunning.early years.my first shotgun was a sarasqueta sxs.apart from possessing a gun licence and the safety rudiments i knew bugger all.i used it for duck shooting and the occasional pheasant.it used to boot like hell. one year i got a loan of an under and over, and it was a revelation,great to shoot, no twitching.i soon had that side by side gone and bought myself a skb 500 u/o skeet gun.that was a great pond gun and i was shooting a few quail as well.i was happy at that gun for years,until i spied a browning citori superlight which i bought.this had invector plus screw in chokes.this proved to be a great all round gun and i believe it is still a superb choice if you only could have one shottie.at this stage i began to read more wingshooting magazines,subscribed to shooting sportsman and before i knew it i was absorbing more about shotgun lore.i enjoyed reading michael macintosh books(i have the lot)and of course began to rekindle an interest in side by sides and good doubles.i began
 acquiring the odd gun,then i saw an aya no2 for sale on trademe which i bought.by that time i was up on proofmarks and date stamps, so i quickly established it was made in 1965. now the early 1960's was an interesting period as that was when the change over to plastic wads was occurring and this has some relevance. it was also apparent that the previous owner had bit of trouble with cheek slap with this gun, because on the stock was a stick on rubber pad,and this was the first thing i removed.i took it to my gunsmith,and as fortune would have he was a very knowledgable and a highly skilled man.anyway i got him to remove auto safety and put a pad on the gun.i then shot it,but took it back with some of the complaints of the previous owner.J. looked at it and said i will do the forcing cones.which he did,gradually lengthening them so that there is no chamber stop(i see some very modern guns are coming out with this feature) anyway the difference in shooting that gun was remarkable, it was a pleasure to shoot.the only difference in style i had to make was swing through the bird don't hold under like you do with a modern high rib gun.looking back i now realise that old sarasqueta i grew to dislke was probably chambered for 2 1/2 and i had been feeding 2 3/4 through it. also the lesson ,try to avoid plastic wads through older guns not designed for them,stick with fibre wads.they will pattern better and be more comfortable to shoot. i went on to get this gun refinished.all metal parts reblued and i sent the stock away to get refinished.i was a little disappointed when i got my wood back. the original french red finish was gone,instead it was walnut brown. the upshot was since then i have done my own stocks up - bought alkanet root online and made my colours,and have found this aspect very rewarding. i have gone on to learn that possessing fine guns is addictive,it doesn't seem to matter that you can only shoot one at a time,and you have to question,should you really buy another gunsafe? you know that some old women get a little mad and start collecting cats, is this a male equivalent?

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## el borracho

nice write up , thankyou . I would love to know more about your colour oil mixes for finishing your stocks!!!! very interesting 


and as this fits your last comment a bit of cat humor

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## Shamus

> funny just tonight i was discussing guns from there with a guy that collects English guns . we were saying they were more known for average trade guns than best guns but that's looking pretty "best' at a glance!! show it in all its glory with a few more shots please


Its a pretty nice old gun - seen a bit of use but hasn't been messed with too much. I will take some photos in the week if you are interested

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## el borracho

love to see it in all it glory for sure ! I purchased a nice looking Japanese boxlock yesterday also that will arrive this week ..since we are few on this thread may aswell pop up a few of our guns also even if they are not English or Spanish but look as tho they are . This is a Kawaguchia Firearms Co. Tokyo. SxS 12G  English type for grip nice and fine --I paid $450 for this on trademe yesterday ..a bargain 

 are!!!

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## Maca49

Nice straight English stock!

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## el borracho

I have uploaded these on behalf of lophortyx and he can share his story's of these guns . One is a Victor sarasqueta 12 E.... wow !!!very nice

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## Maca49

My old I. Hollis single barrelled 12 gauge, belonged to my Great Grandfather, who died about 60 years ago.
My very first shotgun! :Cool:

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## mikee

> My old I. Hollis single barrelled 12 gauge, belonged to my Great Grandfather, who died about 60 years ago.Attachment 26168Attachment 26169Attachment 26170Attachment 26171Attachment 26172
> My very first shotgun!


My shoulder is hurting just looking at the pictures  :Grin:

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## Maca49

Haven't fired it in 40 yrs, I must take it out and put some BP rounds thru it, it's as tight as the snappers from memory, remember firing at a flock of ducks, directly over head at and about 3 miles high! Stuff me one in the middle fell out of the sky and nearly hit me! Use to shoot many hares and rabbits with it when I was at college out at Kaituna west of Masterton :Psmiley:

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## Maca49

My Husqvana combination gun, 28 gauge/ .577 cal. RH barrel twist LH barrel straight rifling. RH 2-1/2" chamber very accurate, LH 3" chamber for cardboard and felt wadded shotgun, but have shot .577 lead projectile, drops more than the RH barrel. Built like a double rifle not a shotgun, fairly heavy, nice to shoot, has 3 leaf rear sight. Owners name on barrel, not mine! Cheek piece in stock with steel butt plate, nice hard cased blued/ browned action, deep blued barrels

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## kotuku

Now macca me old china judging by the size of them there lumps of cordite and lead youre flinging through the old girl,Im sure as hell not volunteerin to play wicket keeper.
 in fact im not suprised a bloody bird would fall out of the sky with a lump of lead like that up its jacksie!. that sorta stuff is whats used to drive commonsense in to politicians ;no wait a minute ,thats a little too optimistic.Ah bugger it one whistlin past their ears at least should make em sit up and take notice.
 actually ive got an old one here which was my late dads grandfathers(Circa mid 1860s,we think)-loverly english piece though ive rendered it non op as it was too dangerous(sloppy action badly pitted damascus barrels) and both firing pins were buggered.I might dig it out and post a little on it.

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## kotuku

el borracho-a classic crafted european gun like those is enough to give an amoeba a very swift rushof blood to its loins.they fair scream love ,craftsmanship and quality!
 gimme gimme gimme some more!

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## Maca49

> Now macca me old china judging by the size of them there lumps of cordite and lead youre flinging through the old girl,Im sure as hell not volunteerin to play wicket keeper.
>  in fact im not suprised a bloody bird would fall out of the sky with a lump of lead like that up its jacksie!. that sorta stuff is whats used to drive commonsense in to politicians ;no wait a minute ,thats a little too optimistic.Ah bugger it one whistlin past their ears at least should make em sit up and take notice.
>  actually ive got an old one here which was my late dads grandfathers(Circa mid 1860s,we think)-loverly english piece though ive rendered it non op as it was too dangerous(sloppy action badly pitted damascus barrels) and both firing pins were buggered.I might dig it out and post a little on it.


Get your photos up! We need a look at it. Nice to keep that type of history in your family :Thumbsup:

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## lophortyx

maca 49,great photos, i love the huskie.the swedes made great guns, very solid. that hollis single,i noticed the screw on the top level is not screwed in right.these screws are schampered so that they rest flush.so it either needs to be tightened or it has been overscrewed over the years,  it which case it needs to be packed out, a washer made out of gasket paper should do the trick.remember el boraccho's post, don't use an ordinary screwdriver,which are tapered to the slot, use a gunsmithing one,parallel to the slot,or grind one to suit. also that damaged top strap.if you remove the action from the stock, an expert tig welder should fix this.you then could get it engraved. you may already know this stuff, so apologies if you do.

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## Shamus

> My Husqvana combination gun, 28 gauge/ .577 cal. RH barrel twist LH barrel straight rifling. RH 2-1/2" chamber very accurate, LH 3" chamber for cardboard and felt wadded shotgun, but have shot .577 lead projectile, drops more than the RH barrel. Built like a double rifle not a shotgun, fairly heavy, nice to shoot, has 3 leaf rear sight. Owners name on barrel, not mine! Cheek piece in stock with steel butt plate, nice hard cased blued/ browned action, deep blued barrelsAttachment 26176Attachment 26177Attachment 26178Attachment 26179Attachment 26180


Outstanding! Love that old Husqvarna

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## Chop3r

Yep, plus I have set of hollow ground screw heads that you buy in a kit. I do make a point of checking that it is the right head for the right screw i.e. no slop at all

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## Maca49

> maca 49,great photos, i love the huskie.the swedes made great guns, very solid. that hollis single,i noticed the screw on the top level is not screwed in right.these screws are schampered so that they rest flush.so it either needs to be tightened or it has been overscrewed over the years,  it which case it needs to be packed out, a washer made out of gasket paper should do the trick.remember el boraccho's post, don't use an ordinary screwdriver,which are tapered to the slot, use a gunsmithing one,parallel to the slot,or grind one to suit. also that damaged top strap.if you remove the action from the stock, an expert tig welder should fix this.you then could get it engraved. you may already know this stuff, so apologies if you do.


This old gun hasn't been apart for 40 yrs, I just keep it stored in a box and see it every 5 yrs or so! Thank you for the comments

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## Maca49

Here another one that's passed through!
Spanish AYA, Aguirre Y Aranzabal copy of a Merkel, with cross bolt locking, side locks gold washed inside, nicely engraved, circa 1930, two sets of barrels, skeet and sporting,front trigger hinged forward for recoil, 12 gauge, side locks removed with hidden screw, gold inlaid. Nice gun?

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## el borracho

very nice !!  I know that gun is alot better than your photography!!! lol

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## Maca49

I auctioned this at Christies in London about 1995, bought it in the Hawkes Bay for $800.00, won't tell ya what I sold it for but the exchange rate was very much in my favour, dollars to pounds! Never recommend doing that unless you have some one in the UK to pick up if it doesn't sell, thankfully I got a good  :Thumbsup: sale, otherwise it had 6 weeks to collect if it didn't! These are photos of old photos

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## el borracho

very interesting types of colouring -- I be a lovin that blackning !!

Bone Charcoal Case Color: Our case coloring is prepared and processed to correspond with the different coloring patterns and designs set forth by the manufacturers. Special attention to detail here is of the utmost importance. As an example; a Colt, Winchester, and Marlin should not all look the same as there are differences between them. Antique firearms and new guns can receive this metal finish.
Cyanide Case ColoringCyanide case coloring. Provided in tiger stripe pattern and swirled. For all antique and custom firearms.
Cyanide Case Coloring: This finish is commonly found on single shot actions in the tiger stripe pattern, which we do provide. Parts can also be processed to give the mottled and swirled effect of the bone charcoal method. Some common examples of this finish are the Stevens Single Shot actions with the tiger stripe pattern like the Favorite, 44 & the 44½. We also find many of the A. H. Fox double guns with this process in the common swirl and mottled pattern.
Carbonia BlueCarbonia bluing for Colt, Winchester, and all fireams.
Carbonia Blue/Charcoal Blue: This finish is produced in a gas furnace which is exactly how it was done by the manufacturers like Colt, Winchester, Smith & Wesson, and almost all other arms makers before WW II. Carbonia blue is the Cadillac of finishes. It's glossy black in appearance which has a mirror depth to it (when the metal is polished to a high luster), and hard wearing. There are some different methods other shops may try to use and duplicate this finish, but for it to be a true Carbonia finish, it must be processed in a gas furnace retort.
Nitre / Fire BlueColt Single Action Army Niter Blue screws.
Nitre Blueing: Or sometimes called fire bluing, produces that brilliant iridescent peacock blue. Commonly seen on Colt Single Action Army screws. This finish is a great way to decorate the appointments of a gun, but it's not the most durable and not well suited for larger parts of guns receiving a lot of handling.
Slow Rust BlueRust Blue as found on Winchester Marlin and other antique and custom rifles and shotguns.
Slow Rust Blue & Browning: Our Slow Rust Bluing process is highly controlled in both the rusting environment, and processing time. Over years of research and development, R.G.S. makes every one of our own rusting agents, and when combined with expertly controlled rusting cycles it allows us to develop a finish highly superior to competitors. Rather than a soft etched finish commonly seen from other shops, our finish displays a very distinct keen black shimmer.
Best English BlackingBest English Blacking for fine quality antique, modern, and custom firearms.
Best English Blacking: Holland's, Purdy's, Westley Richards, they all use this finish on their Dbl. Gun tubes. The hallmark of Best English Blacking is a very glossy rich black color, which is still a Slow Rust Blue finish. This finish takes much more time than a normal rust blue, but the results are absolutely astounding! There's no better finish than this to adorn a custom rifle or shotgun.

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## lophortyx

[QUOTE=el borracho;265916]love to see it in all it glory for sure ! I purchased a nice looking Japanese boxlock yesterday also that will arrive this week ..since we are few on this thread may aswell pop up a few of our guns also even if they are not English or Spanish but look as tho they are . This is a Kawaguchia Firearms Co. Tokyo. SxS 12G  English type for grip nice and fine --I paid $450 for this on trademe yesterday ..a bargain 
Kawaguchia fireams co. or KFC.as it is often abbreviated is an old japanese firearms company.i think they are now part of the miruko group.for many years they were contracted to make the winchester 101, to give some idea of the esteem in which they were held.they mainly made for the japanese domestic market,but in recent years we have seen a number of KFC. guns come into the country,most common is the semi auto which is a copy of the browning A5. most of these guns have been brought via Gun City,who in recent years have established commercial contacts with japanese traders. forum members may be interested in a little background detail.in japan gun licences are restricted, read expensive. you are only allowed one shotgun. a few years ago restrictions were tightened to reduce the number of licence holders. now if you are well heeled and can only buy one gun, what are you going to buy? a brand new, expensive one. so the second hand market for guns in japan is pretty depressed.dave tipple is an astute business man.he saw the opportunity and has brought several container loads of guns back to nz.there have been a number of high class guns not normally seen in nz arrive this way, Boss,Purdey, Holland and Holland,Westley Richards, Churchills, etc,there has also been a number of good old shooters, a large number have been side by sides, they are all there, the good the bad and the ugly.there has never been in nz such a selection of used firearms. in terms of sxs. most know the familiar brands, the SKB royale,the Miroku sbs, as being good reliable guns, but there are some wonderful obscure japanese domestic brands. if you wait for the bi annual sale many of these guns are half price, and for those that can distinguish a good well made gun,you can get a wonderful sxs. but you have to be aware of pitfalls,loose ribs cracked repaired stocks and so on.the japanese made some quality shotguns and are great value for money.

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## el borracho

I had a browse over at gun city at the jap s/s   -typically over priced as gun city does but never the less nice enough field guns and id have one no problem at all owning one . i think miroku has stopped making s/s guns

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## el borracho

i gotta say im enjoying this thread and those participating in it with images ,storys and info!!!

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## Maca49

Go drool over "international guns"

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## el borracho

ill have alook over there Maca . 

just a bit more description on bluing than the other post -great what you can find on line and educate yourself with!!

Hot salts bluing.
This is todays bluing system as used by all gun makers.
The metal is boiled in a tank of chemicals which gives it a black-blue color.
This is actually "oxidation" or a controlled form of RUST, which has a blue-black color and is smooth.

Rust blue.
Rust blue is a process in which the metal is caused to rust with a chemical that gives a blue in color instead of the usual rust-red color.
The parts are boiled in water, removed and swabbed with the chemical.
The parts are allowed to rust, then "carded" off with steel wool. At this point the metal has a grayish streaked color.
As the process is continued the color deepens and darkens into a satin blue.
There are a number of processes in which rust blue can be done.
Rust blue has a more satin finish that's blue but not the glossy blue of other methods.
It is a durable, tough blue, and is one of the few methods by which double guns with soft soldered barrels can be blued.
Due to the amount of time and hand labor, rust blue is expensive.

Carbona blue.
Carbona is an advanced form of heat bluing.
This is the process many gun companies used years ago, especially Colt.
The cleaned parts are put in steel drums along with a mix of various materials, including charred leather, charcoal, bone meal, and other often "secret" materials, then the air-tight drums are put in a furnace at carefully controlled temps.
The materials give off a gas that drives out moisture and air, and the metal takes on a deep shiny black-blue color.

Heat bluing.
There are a good number of heat bluing methods, known by various names like "Fire Bluing". These are basically simply variations of heating the metal until it changes color.
The simplest method is to just polish the metal, clean it then heat it up.
As the metal heats, it starts to change colors, first a light yellow "straw" to a darker golden, to a brown, then purple, and finally a brilliant blue.
Most heat blues are very colorful, but very delicate and easily worn off.
All heat blues must take into account the hardness and temper of the metal. Some guns parts should not be heat blued.

Cold blue.
Cold bluing is a commercial chemical that works for touching up worn areas or scratches.
It's not very durable, tends to turn brown as it ages, and usually doesn't work well for large areas.
When used to blue a large area, it tends to give a streaked, cloudy gray-blue color.

Nitre Blue.
This is another heat blue method, only using a salts compound that melts when heated.
When the metal is submerged in the liquid hot salts, it changes color like heat bluing, from a light straw to a brilliant blue.
Again, nitre bluing is rather delicate.
Some people have done nitre bluing using stump remover chemical from the hardware store.

Charcoal bluing.
Simply another name for a variation of Carbona bluing.

There are other methods, all of which are variations of the above methods.
They all use either a heat system to heat the metal until it changes color, or a chemical that causes the metal to rust with a blue or blue-black color.

With all these systems, the color and how shiny the finish is depends entirely on how well the metal is polished BEFORE the bluing process.
As example, the only real difference between the Ruger's satin black color and the deep, dark blue mirror-like finish of the 1950's Python was the degree of polishing the metal received before the metal was put into the hot salts bluing tanks.

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## Maca49

I've got a good recipe on my desk at work for either bluing or browning can't remember but old one :Thumbsup:

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## el borracho

the English blacking is what interests me . is this just an extra  slow blue--i wonder if this is it?? the deep black finish on my first post colouring post at the bottom looks stunning

Rust blue.
Rust blue is a process in which the metal is caused to rust with a chemical that gives a blue in color instead of the usual rust-red color.
The parts are boiled in water, removed and swabbed with the chemical.
The parts are allowed to rust, then "carded" off with steel wool. At this point the metal has a grayish streaked color.
As the process is continued the color deepens and darkens into a satin blue.
There are a number of processes in which rust blue can be done.
Rust blue has a more satin finish that's blue but not the glossy blue of other methods.
It is a durable, tough blue, and is one of the few methods by which double guns with soft soldered barrels can be blued.
Due to the amount of time and hand labor, rust blue is expensive.

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## Chop3r

The end result depends on just how much work you do in the preparation and you can get a very nice shine using rust blue if you put the extra effort in.

The quality of the steel used in making a barrel can also reflect in the finish. I have two barrels in the shed, one being an old H & R single barrel and thats come out very well and yet I also have a Winchester Super X1 semi and the finish is more of a matt. With the rust blue you do get to a stage where the steel just doesnt want to take on rust nor colour any more. You just have to judge the right time to end the process

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## lophortyx

> Attachment 26160Attachment 26161Attachment 26162Attachment 26163Attachment 26164Attachment 26165Attachment 26166Attachment 26167
> 
> I have uploaded these on behalf of lophortyx and he can share his story's of these guns . One is a Victor sarasqueta 12 E.... wow !!!very nice


 Just a few notes on the photos.   that semi auto is a ring in i know, but i thought it might be of interest.i like shooting a few quail and as i live in ch.ch. i spend i bit of time chasing them around nth. canterbury.for the most part this is hard country,both to shoot and retrieve,riverbed,broom and blackberry, not your tussock, briar and matagouri of central otago and marlborough. so for most parts shooting is covey flushes,not often do you pin your covey. two shots is all you get. which is fine if you are a sport with the attitude of 'if i can't git 'em with two they can live for another day', and i'm fine with that. but there have been days when i just can't get 'em, and this led me thinkin', if only i just had another shot. then i read about the benelli ultra lite, lightest 20 ga in the world, 5lbs 6 ozs,3 shot. well i just had to get one didn't i.bought it online from a texas gunshop,and a couple of months later,i was able to collect from customs after shelling out for gst,MAF, bio and whatever else they bone you for.the gunsmith made up a new mag, you can't just add an extension, so it holds 3 shells and not the factory 2.to the amusment of friends of have add a steel rod to the forend knob to give it a little more weight forward, yes i'm trying to improve what benelli spent millions perfecting.i've had this gun for about 4 years and it is one of my favourites.  the next photo is my AYA. mentioned in a previous post and with it my lovely brie, now deceased.   the hammer gun,i went through a real fad for these, i still love them. there is a few lessons in this one which forum members might enjoy. this gun had done a couple of rounds on trademe.i watched it, because i liked a back action and it looked like a copy of the Holland and Holland Dominion(a gun in actual fact made by w.c scott but sold under H&H label) anyway i put a bid on $180 and this was the sole bid.the gun was local so i went around to collect and it was at a house full of students.one of them(off a farm) had two shotguns for sale.there was mine and had a quick look and realised it was one of those gun that had spent a fair bit of its time in the truck over the years. the other one had a split up the foreend and was cracked through the wrist. my one was loose in the action had mismatched hammers, a lever spring or firing pin was broken,had several dents in both barrels and when i peered down the tubes, the left barrel was pitted and hadn't been fired or cleaned in years.none of this had been mentioned in the description.i began to shake my head and say this gun is irretrievable,and the student said oh please take i need the money.he threw a side of wide pork and sucker that i am i found myself walking out the door to the chorus of ' love to see the gun again when you do it up'. well it sat for about a year before i did something with it.i took it to the gunsmith.he honed out the barrels,redid the chokes made up a new lever spring.i found a hammer.he had to shape it,file to fit the axle and then put a little fence around the top to match the others.this cost $350 and it was cheap at that.it still needs to be blued and the wood and checkering to be done,but i think i have spent enough.its a great gun to shoot clays with and have a bit of fun.i've saved this gun from a certain death but get my money back?  the next photo is my AYA, doesn't do it justice.these were/are one of the most popular guns in the UK often referred to as the poor man's H&H of which they are a copy. suprisingly expensive new here, about $8500, and with the makers leather case,$10,000.but not bad to buy 2nd hand from the UK where there are many to choose from.  the next gun is my victor sarasqueta 12 E.i guess i always had a soft spot for sarasqueta, victor not to be confused with other sarasqueta makers.this is the top production sxs model all crafted by hand. i have two other V.sarasqueta 7E models hand detachable sidelocks,i love this outstanding piece of Basque workmanship. having said that, the sidelock u/o AYA as shown by maca49 would take some beating. that was an outstanding gun and from that era.

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## el borracho

nice write up -shame the system didnt allow the photos to follow through . i tried also but did the same

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## Maca49

And I SOLD IT :Wtfsmilie:  but times in your life change with circumstances!

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## el borracho

buggered if i know what it is buy it is sure pretty in an ostentatious way

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## el borracho

ive also been on the scout for a few cases for some of my guns --a bit like having dolls and needing to dress them up lol

these all come from uplandfly and are reasonably priced $200us plus shipping  Uplandfly Hard Leather ShotGun Case | UplandFly Hard Leather Shotgun Case

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## lophortyx

that gun, decorated in turkish style? is ornamental or a garish work of art?it does not lend itself to shooting so in that respect has a dishonesty of purpose and it is not to be taken seriously. a good site for gun cases are jeffs outfitters in usa.the canvas ones are good,as are the leather.freight from the usa is expensive these days, about us$70 so watch the nz$400 limit, after which, liable for gst on total expenditure.

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## gqhoon

Support NZ artisans and talk to Les Matheson in Hawkes Bay about building a case for you. His work is exceptional.

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## el borracho

funny i was discussing this person with someone last night -comments were very expensive and does it when he is ready and if you ask when it takes longer ...so said to me!!  I doubt he could build a case for the price mentioned .. in theory i do agree with you tho Gqhoon its just the $ changes ones practices unless filthy rich

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## gqhoon

My experience of Les' work was quite the opposite. He made a bespoke cartridge bag for me for my UK trip last year, completed it in less than 4 weeks from time of ordering. A few days after recieving it by courier, he followed up with a phone call to make sure I was happy with it. I'll be getting a leather gun-slip to match sometime in the near future.

As for price, what's a fair hourly rate for a true craftsman? You certainly don't need to be filthy rich to experience his workmanship.

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## Pointer

That's the thing about one off jobs, what price does a person capable of such a job charge? There are tradesmen, and then there are craftsmen.

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## el borracho

yes one off stuff youd expect to pay more for sure but if its not a Purdey its going in a cheaper gun case :Thumbsup: i would think a case from this guy would be in the vicinity of a grand or more?

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## Pointer

that's true, a case triple the value of what your putting in it  :Thumbsup:

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## Chop3r

I have no doubt that there would be someone out there that would pay for that but its sure as shit not me. Ugly bling

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## gqhoon

> i would think a case from this guy would be in the vicinity of a grand or more?


I haven't enquired about a hard-case, but a cartridge bag was $400-$500 and a slip was $500-$700 depending on your requirements. So I would imagine a leather hard-case would be in excess of $1K.

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## el borracho

I would imagine his work would be exquisite and if I could afford to have a one off I would .There is certainly something special about a well made and adorned case

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## el borracho

Anyone heard of these guns ? Hartmann and Weiss from Hamburg.

 Had an interesting read from a chap as follows about Purdey design guns ....As lovely a gun as Purdey makes, they are middle to late 19th Century technology in design. Obviously the steel has markedly improved but they whole design concept is inherently weak, notably about the wrist. With the same or less outlay, one could have had a McKay Brown with the Dickson design action, (or even a new back action side lock). Nobody is going to be as pissed as the owner   if the thing breaks.I suppose the point is that the old and well established London makers have managed to pull an increadable amount of wool over the shooting public's eyes. Of such things are myths born. The English have done this with all manner of their home produced commodities for two centuries. If the new and enthusiastic well heeled sportsman really wants to splash out and acquire a fine sporting gun to be proud of, he could order a Hartmann and Weiss from Hamburg. However, makers like H & W don't bother to put themselves out there. The newly monied merely go for what they know or what their associates know, which is not necessarily a whole lot. Not a poke at their character but a comment that one can only know what he knows.

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## gqhoon

An unusual 'article' with a rather irellavent point being made. Yes, the Dickson design is claimed to being the strongest of all as it removes less material than say the Beesley action used by Purdey. But the Dickson design is the same era as the Beesley so is no more 'modern'.

Interesting the article doesn't mention the more intricate Beelsey spring design and function used by Purdey.

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## el borracho

over my head gqhoon this gun design stuff but it was not an article but banter on face book this morning when someone posted a purdey s/s .. interesting never the less for such a gun to be questioned

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## gqhoon

A cynic might suggest that the Facebook post was made by someone who couldn't afford a Purdey, so had to 'settle' for a Dickson instead. Despite the tone of the post, the factual information is correct...you could buy two McKay Brown for the price of a single Purdey...that doesn't lessen the enjoyment gained from possessing either.

Interestingly, Dickson made a number of guns using the Beesley action made famous by Purdey (10 or 12 I believe), so must have been comfortable with the more complex design to put their name to it.

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## Maca49

> I have no doubt that there would be someone out there that would pay for that but its sure as shit not me. Ugly bling


Gotta store you gold some where! :ORLY:

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## Maca49

> Anyone heard of these guns ? Hartmann and Weiss from Hamburg.
> 
>  Had an interesting read from a chap as follows about Purdey design guns ....As lovely a gun as Purdey makes, they are middle to late 19th Century technology in design. Obviously the steel has markedly improved but they whole design concept is inherently weak, notably about the wrist. With the same or less outlay, one could have had a McKay Brown with the Dickson design action, (or even a new back action side lock). Nobody is going to be as pissed as the owner   if the thing breaks.I suppose the point is that the old and well established London makers have managed to pull an increadable amount of wool over the shooting public's eyes. Of such things are myths born. The English have done this with all manner of their home produced commodities for two centuries. If the new and enthusiastic well heeled sportsman really wants to splash out and acquire a fine sporting gun to be proud of, he could order a Hartmann and Weiss from Hamburg. However, makers like H & W don't bother to put themselves out there. The newly monied merely go for what they know or what their associates know, which is not necessarily a whole lot. Not a poke at their character but a comment that one can only know what he knows.


A Purdys a Purdy, a Hartman and what? May as well buy a Norinco!

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## el borracho

Whilst i hear you that doesnt make them the best and it appears there are others out there with hugely respected names .Another David McKay Brown(Gunmakers) Ltd ex purdey out of Scotland
David McKay Brown (Gunmakers) Ltd Est. 1967

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## gqhoon

No-one said they were the best, although plenty of customers believe they are....the list of provincial gunmakers who are every bit as good as the best London gunmakers is almost endless. And yes, there are plenty in the north also as John Dickson originated in Edinburgh.

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## Maca49

Been to both Holland and Holland and Purdy in London, gotta buy the name ! William Evans are nice as well but runner up! Rigby and Boss are equivalents of the first two

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## el borracho

very beautiful guns some of these craftsman build on a smaller scale .David McKay Browns staff All four members of staff have been with the company since leaving school and have served a five year apprenticeship.impressive 


Douglas Proctor    - Lockmaker       -  37 years service

Jim McDonald       -  Barrel maker  -   32 years service

Robin Moir             -  Actioner           - 27 years service

Brian Sinclair         - Stocker             - 22 years service

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## el borracho

the gunmakers i always thought the best were Purdey , holland and holland and Boss , i truly didn't know these others until i started reading the opinions of others  who have seen these other makers

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## Maca49

Agree like the AYA I owned very nice and well built but an AYA! I'll post some nice photos I have!

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## lophortyx

yes,if money was no object,then mckay brown u/o 20 ga. with celtic engraving would be gun of choice. for a side by side it would be piotti in a 12 ga.  however i do have a round action rizzini which was designed by Piotti,and that is a gun i can afford.these round action rizzini's are the cheapest here than  anywhere else in the world.check them out.i like my beretta's but these are way more bang for buck.

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## Maca49

Yep and that's why I don't own a gun like that, but if I had spare $100k I'd buy a H&H, Rigby,Boss, Purdy ................ double gun

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## lophortyx

best gunmakers?thats a moot point.of the old established maker's using auction prices as a guide Boss would take it out.they are the rarer gun, and the 20ga u/o commands top resale.there are a number of makers with limited production that also get great prices.the italians are generally regarded as the top nation for design of u/o, and in the side by sides Piotti is second place to no one.conneticut shotgun manufacturing co. in the usa is rated in the top 5 manufacturers worldwide,and tony galazan's sidelock u/o are fantastic value for money.with cad and cnc machines the world is a different place.  even in good old england,high pheasant shooting's gun of choice is now the 30-32 inch u/0 sporter.

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## Maca49

Yep but I'm not into modern CNC means sterile to me, I'm hand made old school, enjoy the works of art!

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## el borracho

yes i think that has to be recognized hand made and CNC made , is AYA still hand made or are they CNC  ? I cant understand a high price point of a gun heavily made by machines just because of a name . to me if you knew for example Purdey did this you would soon loose some respect for their gun making art

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## lophortyx

i don't want to disillusion you brian,but purdey do in fact have cnc machines. for a start you can get tolerances far more accurately and consistently with a machine.also they take away a lot of the tedious work.but the finishing is all by hand. it is 2014.

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## Maca49

Yep, I look at the craftsmanship work, forget the name its not important, enjoy the hand work of a hacksaw, file and scraper, some of that work is straight art, I collected old guns as one would collect art!

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## lophortyx

they say a top shotgun u/o or s/s requires 1000 manhours to hand build it.now you do the maths. engraving? that is extra.a job by a renowned name, at least us$50,000.it's big boys only league.

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## el borracho

i had heard they were CNCNING some of the bits , what a shame considering the hit you up for 100-200k , I wonder how many they put out the door a year . 
There are those that still do it the traditional way and make best guns PEDRO ARRIZABALAGA.300 guns a year 
The main parts of a shotgun are: barrels, action, locks and stock. The Chromium nickel steel barrels are of the highest quality. They are a perfect balance of elasticity and hardness.

The forged steel action, specially designed to obtain a fine material in its handcrafted process and versatile for the thermal treatment, offers a high performance.

The locks, made up of tempered steel, require smooth perfect operation, which is essential for the life and good performance of a shotgun.

The walnut stock, which is selected by our expert stocker, undergoes a long and careful natural drying process.

All of the steps are carried out in the traditional ways and are entirely handcrafted. The maker is responsible for the barrels and the action. He takes care of the action forms and initial working, which calls for a long apprenticeship period and plenty of experience.

The stocker´s job is the next essential step in manufacturing a hand-made shotgun. His task is to join the stock to the action and locks. He is also responsible for all customer needs, making the hunter feel at ease with the shotgun. He works and shapes a fine piece of walnut until the beauty within its timber shows.

The engravings are entirely handmade. Although they are not significant to the performance of the shotgun, they provide beautiful embellishment. The engraver needs practice and experience to enable him to cater for all our customers likes and requirements.

The final ensemble should really be carried out by an expert who knows all of the intricacies and details of a luxury shotgun and is capable of assembling all of its parts to provide a perfect  overall performance. In short,  to be able to create a  luxury handcrafted shotgun it is necessary to find a perfect harmony between all components carried out by PEDRO ARRIZABALAGA.

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## Maca49

Oh yes but to hold one, caress that 1000 hours as I did with the Purdys a H&H in London! Selling the Bach to fund it wasn't on! The even had a second hand one with "Special New Zealand Model" on it.

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## el borracho

"Special New Zealand Model" on it. ?? made for someone here

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## Maca49

ElB it was about 50 thousand pounds I didn't get that far, guy said it was not unusual to have clients order a gun, with 6 weeks to finish after measuring and deciding on final finish etc, to write a 100 thousand pound cheque before leaving!

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## el borracho

there are a few guys in this country that can do it, sadly i aint one either  :Oh Noes:

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## el borracho

the thing is there are Spanish makers that are possibly as good but charge less and but for only  a name are less prestigious to own --the power of a brand !!!

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## Maca49

Yes I wear Nike and drive a FORD!

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## lophortyx

doesn't mean you have any more fun or shoot better.i love my shotguns,they all have a story.yes i could sell the lot up and purchase a second hand gun of my choice,but i would doubt if such a gun would make me shoot better,i think it would detract as i would then be overly concerned with it's welfare. to scratch or not to scratch?

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## Maca49

I wouldn't shoot it! :Wtfsmilie:

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## el borracho

id scratch bastard  :Grin:  and carry on

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## Maca49

Look what came into my office today! Thought it might make a nice 45/70 double rifle with a bit of work, blew the bottom barrel and what's left of those barrel are avail. Thinking of how to do it

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## Toby

Can you have barrel's just welded on or is it easier to have the barrels put together then rebuild the bits that make it lock into the action/fore end?

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## lophortyx

you can't stay away from those merkel copies and honest spanish wood?

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## Maca49

Those ferking merkels keep coming my way! This is a box lock the other was a side lock

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## el borracho

lovely looking action! 12-15 k to rebarrel?

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## Maca49

> Can you have barrel's just welded on or is it easier to have the barrels put together then rebuild the bits that make it lock into the action/fore end?


I'll wait till I see the rest of the barrels cause I think if they can be sleeved and welded on to the existing it will work better, ejectors will need modifying as well

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## Maca49

> lovely looking action! 12-15 k to rebarrel?


I was thinking 1.2 to 1.5 to re barrel, don't spoil the dream! :Wtfsmilie:

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## el borracho

who will do all the work?

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## Maca49

Me I hope with some help from some clever mates and some Norinco barrels!

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## el borracho

Sunday afternoon stock bending of one of the two s/s sabel shotguns that arrived from the UK last week . Both nice guns but the Garbi feels more English and of a higher quality build --will post images later once I take some

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## lophortyx

good simple techniques there.did you buy your guns online and then have them shipped?

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## Maca49

Nice, hope the wall hangs out with the side load! :Wink:

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## el borracho

yes i did buy online -got two as freight was the same for one or more . only trouble im having is putting the trigger guard back on -this gun is fitted tightly by the looks -to well made lol i need to do some bending but might get a smith to complete this or someone more competent than me !!

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## gqhoon

When you bend a stock through the wrist (depending how much you bend it), you will generally need to realign the face where the stock bolt tightens (otherwise tightening it just straightens it again) and recut the trigger guard inlet accordingly.

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## el borracho

mmm im not that a flasher smith !!! if it comes back ill look at that but wait until that day

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## lophortyx

i doubt whether either of the sxs of EL B's have a bolt through the stock,being a straight english style stock they will have a long trigger tang. rather than re inletting the stock so it fits, it would be best to heat, bend(cut and tig weld if necessary) then hot blue the metal.not a job for the faint hearted. the Garbi would be the keeper? also el b. with your set up for bending,did you get any issues with the cant of the stock.ie. did it alter at all and how much cast did you achieve.

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## Chop3r

> yes i did buy online -got two as freight was the same for one or more . only trouble im having is putting the trigger guard back on -this gun is fitted tightly by the looks -to well made lol i need to do some bending but might get a smith to complete this or someone more competent than me !!


Oh dear, a wee bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and cost heaps as well

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## el borracho

only needs a bend not surgery !

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## el borracho

> i doubt whether either of the sxs of EL B's have a bolt through the stock,being a straight english style stock they will have a long trigger tang. rather than re inletting the stock so it fits, it would be best to heat, bend(cut and tig weld if necessary) then hot blue the metal.not a job for the faint hearted. the Garbi would be the keeper? also el b. with your set up for bending,did you get any issues with the cant of the stock.ie. did it alter at all and how much cast did you achieve.


ill post soon but been sick with the flu and looking after 7 puppies is taxing lol

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## el borracho

A nice link to browning Damascus barrels . im going to search out a nice Damascus barreled s/s gun and have a play!!  anyway worth a look and some fine examples grace this page .https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...nEM/edit?pli=1

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## Chop3r

I have a greener shotgun in the shed right now which has a damascus look about the barrels, they arent but just look that way. They will need to be brought back
to the original pattern and this will happen when doing the bluing

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## el borracho

what mix are you going to use to do that?if it has the pattern it does mean different hard and soft steels blended in a damascus???i have a new book coming with a load of chemical blacking / browning formulas

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## el borracho

-An Aussi site with some nice kit -turn screws ,oil bottles , leather and bits ..turnscrews.html

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## Chop3r

> what mix are you going to use to do that?if it has the pattern it does mean different hard and soft steels blended in a damascus???i have a new book coming with a load of chemical blacking / browning formulas


No idea on the steels but it is definelty not a damascus barrel. With regard to the book on bluing, if it is an American book you will find some older formulae that you can no longer use due to the chemicals in the mix For example, some of the very good mixs use what is known as corrosive sublimate i.e. mercuric choride, not good for the body and lungs, tends to fuck them up a tad. Other mixs use highly corrosive chemicals so the punter does need to be aware of this and be carefull.

There are also some chemicals that will rust the hell out of any steel tools in the workshop so you dont mix them up in a place where all your favourite tools are stored. Even one of the more simple rust blue recipes creates fumes that can ruin your day in a big way.

Oh an extra bit, the process of browning is the same as bluing, its just that you dont boil the steel off. I could go into the equipment required to do a proper job but my fingers are tired

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## el borracho

yes the boiling will blacken the barrel if boiled . i am trying to get some better blacking liquid in , well see how that goes.the book i have is an oldy with all the witches brews im sure , its called Title: Firearm Blueing and Browning (Revised and updated

Author: R.H. Angier, Ned Schwing

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## Chop3r

From what I have seen there is only one bluing agent that can be imported to NZ. Most manufactors wont bother as it costs too much to get the proper export licence.
The one that can be imported is not that great. Angier is a old book and thence the old formulae will apply and therefore the warning as noted above does apply.

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## el borracho

hopefully the revised and updated version has some modern recipes .. from the sixty's lol

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## el borracho

my firearm blueing and browning by R H Angier ..foreword by Nick Schwing book arrived today --who would ever have thought id be excited reading a book on chemical mixes ??i have all the chemicals to make a rust blueing formula and cant wait to bottle that brew !!

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## el borracho

started making my blackening brew today --freak the shit outta me !! I dont like dangerous chemicals especially ones the below out yellow brown smoke when adding the additives being regent grade Iron into  2 mix acid solution.Tomorrow Ill try more until the acid doesnt want to accept more Iron -it may take a week but im in no hurry .After that 5 litres of distilled water and then I pout it into coffee filters to take the good brew out leaving the shite .Hopefully next week Ill have that which one cannot buy in the shops !!! oh and real black barrels soon

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## Chop3r

It does pay to be careful when mixing that brew together.

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## el borracho

I am going real slow -infact I am going to take 10th of the current brew of 600 cc hydrochloric and 400cc of the nitric  to make the final brew as in retrospect I have made to much .I am at the stage of adding the Regent iron power to the mix and it smokes like a chimney which I keep well away from  -I will then add the distilled water slowly in the smaller quantity of brew once the iron has caused the acid to stop eating it .I dont like playing with this stuff at all ! scares the hell outta me not being a person that has dabbled in this before

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## Chop3r

Shit you have made enough af the brew for several hundred shotguns :Psmiley:  I did a 1/3 rd of that mix and have blued 24 rifles, shotguns and still have shitloads left.
You can also just use degreased steel wool or horse shoe nails rather than that flash harry iron powder. The brew you have made is one of the most basic of recipies but it does the job

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## el borracho

can you suggest any other additive to this brew to flash it up ----so to speak lol

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## el borracho

i thought i might add a comment from another chap who commented on another forum about mixing chemicals that i have mentioned here -very important !

Adding iron to a nitric/hydrochloric mixture has to be done very carefully. The fumes you are seeing are probably nitrogen oxides (nitrogen dioxide is usual).

Professionally this would be done with active extraction to avoid exposure to the fumes, which are toxic and can kill or cause long term illnesses.

The minimum you should be wearing is acid resistant gloves and overalls, safety goggles and, if you do not have an active extraction unit, a face mask fitted with an acid vapour cartridge. Anything less and you are risking your life, even if you are doing it in the yard. Not just that, you may inadvertently expose passers-by, so please be very careful.
Brian Terry
Aerospace - Yeovil, Somerset, UK

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## Maca49

I'd paint blue EB now worth the risk :ORLY:

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## Chop3r

Where,s the fun in that? I wont tell you what I was dressed up in when I did my first ever brew but my wife damn near wet her pants laughing when she saw the outfit

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## el borracho

come on now Chop3r its the foot wear that would be interesting --high heels while carrying an acid brew :Zomg:

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## Chop3r

Can you get gum boots with high heels ? Well bugger me, learn something every day

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## Drahthaar

Ive recently got this a German Simson Shul 12g from the early 60s in pretty good nick. Have had the stock tidied up. Now a full oiled stock.

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## Maca49

Nice sxs  :Thumbsup:

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## lophortyx

these are a very good gun,strong well made.the german style of shooting means they are a little tight in the chokes.have these been opened ? these must always be done by an expert,never allow anyone less. i have a minty one in my safe. nice job on the stock.

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## Drahthaar

Thanks, yes the choking was full and tighter than full. Opened by an expert. Now 1/4 and 1/2

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