# Firearms and Shooting > Projects and Home Builds >  Forming 221 Fireball / 20 Vartarg brass

## xring

Hello, don't know if this is the right place to show some steps I form 20 Vartarg brass from 223 Rem. I am posting it cos I just received rifle back for rechambering. Had it before in 223 rem.

Tools used:

- 221 form die > chop excess necks off with cheapo mini cut off saw > run cases again thru 20VT type S busing FL die (.227" bushings) > trim cases to 1.4" > run cases thru expander die > turn case necks to 0.0125" thick. > anneal > again thru 20VT FL die > load > shoot (fireform).

I have here some pics of the steps taken. I turned down a few necks so when I get it running, I can post more pics if you guys are interested. Hope you enjoy  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 

20VT die and cases:



Trim die. I should have taken the ones with looong necks, but it works... :Psmiley:

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## xring

I don't know why I couldn't post more pics in the thread above.

Chopping necks off:


Trimming cases:


Trimming die. Cases for comparison:






Full length S die (.225 bushing in the pic, but I actually use .227 for necking down):


223 ADI brass:


Ready for neck turn


Food:


If you guys are interested, I can post the neck turn stage, loading, shooting and results in a few days.

Sorry for the awkward way I uploaded them cos its my first time posting something.

Cheers

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## ebf

Very interesting.

I'd be keen to see the other stages.

Nifty little chop saw  :Thumbsup:

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## Toby

I wanna see the other stages too, and the rifle. What speeds do you get from it?

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## Maca49

Have you got the pistol? That lovely bolt action baby from the 70s, the guy in the USA that was the first to shoot all major game animals with a pistol, used the 221 fireball for long range on sheep. Wish I still had the book

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## PerazziSC3

Cool thread. This is the sort of stuff I wish there was more of on the forum

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## yerimaginaryM8

I am interested in the way you trime the long brass

I run a wildcat based on a 7mm saum case shortened 200thou



For trimming I have been using a modified lee trimer followed by a wilson to finish but it is hard work. I bought a redding form die like the one you show and I can hacksaw the tops off but it is a bit rough and ready is that buzz saw thing your prefered trim method? are you in NZ and if so where did you get it/what did it cost?

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## xring

Hi guys, thanks for the replies. 
I posted the images, lets say, ramdomly yesterday cos it was late and my "google translate" in my brain was tiiiired. Yes I am in NZ, but my english is not that good, so sorry for that! 
I bought the mini chop saw at aliexpress.com, around US$ 55. I tried hacking saw the tops but it was a PITA. This saw chops necks off as butter and it was worth the money.
yerimaginary, its interesting your forming dies. It first pushes the bottom of the neck down and gradually the top as well. Nice!!!! What cal is that?

Here are some more images and I hope start necking turn them today, if wife and baby allow me.

Please guys, any comment, good or bad, should be left and I will appreciate messages from smarter people.

Cheers


Necks off. Cuts like butter. Saw was running while picture was taken


One more


Clean mini saw cut


Before/After FL sizing


Wet tumbling


Ingredients


More tumbling


Tumbling

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## yerimaginaryM8

So that saw runs on 240V? could you please supply a link? was the shipping expensive? I tried using a dremel cutoff bit and that was hopeless also that saw looks great. My wild cat is simply a 7mm saum shortened 200thou at the shoulder 
Here is my form die


if i were to do it again i might try it this way.

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## yerimaginaryM8

found it, took a while...
Mini cut off saw,Mini cut off saw/Mini Mitre Saw/Mini chop saw,220v 7800rpm cut ferrous metals non ferrous metals wood plastic-in Special Store from Jewelry on Aliexpress.com

I did think of trying a very fine (say 32 tpi) mini hand held hacksaw with the redding form and trim die did you try this by any chance?

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## BRADS

That's a lot of effort well done :Have A Nice Day: 
Not for me I'd loose the brass when hunting and have two start again :Sad: 


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## ebf

xring, if you could post some pics of your annealing setup/process that would be great thanks.

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## xring

Thanks again, guys! I tried the hacksaw but it kinda galled, lots of elbow grease and ended up with a bad finish around the case mouth. Previously, I was thinking about those Renovator tool, but was afraid to spend some money on that and it didnt work. On Youtube you can see some people making 300AAC out of 223 and most of them use this mini rotary saw.
About the annealing process, nothing special. Just a Bernzomatic propane torch, a cordless drill and any clock that makes some noise/tic tacs so I can control time. But in the near future I will build a proper annealer myself.
Here are some self explanatory images continuing the process.
Cheers

Cheap KMart oven

Simple ingredients to mak'em shine

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## yerimaginaryM8

kg copper cleaner works great for cleaning brass off the expander mandrel. I have the k&m neck turner but found it fiddly i then got a pma tools turner its much nicer to use with a micrometer style depth adjustment and the cutters come with different angles to match shoulder angles for running into the shoulder. The pma cutters are broader so its much easier to get a clean smooth cut than with the k&M. The expander mandrels are nicer too with an eliptoid shape to them http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-turning-tool/
you can buy a sleeve from pma that allows you to fit the carbide mandrel from the k&m to the pma turner so you can still cut the donuts. That carbide mandrel runs so much smoother on the brass than standard steel mandrels its the one really nice thing about the k&m set up

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## xring

hey yerimaginary, thanks for the tips. i was thinking about getting a second one from 21st shooting, which looks nice too, but they may not have those "adaptors" to use my k&m mandrel. i got some more images to upload now but i am sleeping sitting up so will post tomorrow. what is your main goal? hunting, paper shooting, long range, short BR?
cheers for the heads up again!

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## xring

Hi. Here follows some self explanatory images again. Although its not a deep step by step reloading technique, it can help some new reloaders (yes, I know, there are waaay more advanced techniques than that one). I will post my results when I return from the range.
Sorry some english mistakes cos I just have this time (2:20 AM) to upload and write it. Time when baby and wife sleep. Cheers

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## Maca49

Now show us the deliverer! Man you have done a very technical bit of work with impressive end product. :Cool:

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## xring

Hi, thanks for the compliments guys. Here is my last self explanatory images for this project. Also, I have received a few PM's/emails if I can turn some 223 into 221/20VT. Yes, I can do that. Let's see if its worth for both parts.
Regards

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## Maca49

What's the rifle? That's a nice bit of shooting, what distance? And what condition were the groups shot in? It's an accurate little beast. You take this pretty seriously compared to my mucking around, enjoyed your thread thanks! :Thumbsup:

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## Toby

Awesome stuff. Love this thread

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## Maca49

> Awesome stuff. Love this thread


Wish you could shoot like that Toby?

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## veitnamcam

Was that load development groups at different charges or seating depths?

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## yerimaginaryM8

> i was thinking about getting a second one from 21st shooting, which looks nice too, but they may not have those "adaptors" to use my k&m mandrel. i got some more images to upload now but i am sleeping sitting up so will post tomorrow. what is your main goal? hunting, paper shooting, long range, short BR?


The adapters were available from PMA via "special order" when I got mine I corresponded with them via email as they were not advertising the adapters on their website. If you are seating your bullets such that the tapered section of the boat tail is not below the donut you don't need to worry about the donut. 

I use my wildcat for hunting it has worked great except for the inevitable loss of brass. I use a rough homemade anealer with a timer and the same torch as you. I also use 450 temilaq below the shoulder and 750 inside the case neck to set it up for consistent annealing. It seems to work well

The link to the development of my wild cat are here and some more  here It took a while to iron out the bugs. The brass settles down after a couple of firings

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## Uplandstalker

This makes my 223 Maximus look dumb and simple. This is a really nice looking round and the end results look great.

Thanks for sharing this.

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## xring

man, thanks for the words. I really appreciated them.

maca, the rifle is a barnard, with TF UM barrel, 24 inches, 1X10 twist. I would like to use bullets up to 45 gr. Distance was 100 m, without NO wind at all. That was the most calm day I was able to shoot. To do some nice loads you have to have three things: patience (lots), right tools and wife/baby sleeping (or away).

toby, thanks for that!

vietnamcam, I ended up with two loads (17.5 and 18 gr of 2207) with 3 different seating depth each load. Next time I will try .002" and .003 neck tension.

yerimaginary, I will surely contact them. Do you turn neck with carbide cutter? Much better than tool steel? About th annealer, I am still gthering information on motors, speed, RPM's. I am not engineer, so it will take some time yet although the simple setup like I have does the job well. I keep a noisy clock besides me so I can hear the clicks. Good info on your links! Very good.

thanks uplandstalker!

I will soon start making .224 HPBT 52 gr bullets with Berger jackets and carbide dies and I can post the step by step w/ pics if there is enough interest in it.

Cheers

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## Maca49

Really interesting thread thanks heaps!

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## veitnamcam

yes please

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## Toby

Im with cam on this one. Love seeing this stuff.

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## yerimaginaryM8

> yerimaginary, I will surely contact them. Do you turn neck with carbide cutter? Much better than tool steel?


I am using carbide cutters in the PMA turner. I don't know if it is the shape of the cutter or the carbide vs HSS but I get  smoother cuts easier with the PMA. I think I only have a HSS cutter in the K&M. I did strike the problem that is known for the K&M turner that the alloy body heats up, expands and the cutting depth changes you can feel it getting warm in the hand so I bought that heat sink holder thing they sell. Since I bought the PMA with the micrometer depth adjustment it instantly became the go-2 tool.

 Also PMA sells this neckturning lube that is slicker than ky. It looks like ATF it's a reddish colour it is really good stuff

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## small_caliber

> Hi guys, thanks for the replies. 
> I posted the images, lets say, ramdomly yesterday cos it was late and my "google translate" in my brain was tiiiired. Yes I am in NZ, but my english is not that good, so sorry for that! 
> I bought the mini chop saw at aliexpress.com, around US$ 55. I tried hacking saw the tops but it was a PITA. This saw chops necks off as butter and it was worth the money.
> yerimaginary, its interesting your forming dies. It first pushes the bottom of the neck down and gradually the top as well. Nice!!!! What cal is that?
> 
> Here are some more images and I hope start necking turn them today, if wife and baby allow me.
> 
> Please guys, any comment, good or bad, should be left and I will appreciate messages from smarter people.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the post very informative, like the tumbler what make and model is it? Thanks

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## xring

Sorry for the tardy reply.
yerimaginaryM8, I just bought one PMA tool fr me after watching some videos and reading some reviews. I also got the sleeve for the K&M. Tks for the help.
small_calibre, HERE is the link for the tumbler.
Another grouping with the VT. I am getting there. Problem is I got the Timney trigger which is heavy to break and a not suitable stock for benchrest. 
Do you guys think its worth the money making a trigger job?
Cheers

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## xring

Forgot to say that each mark has 5 shots. Got error when trying to edit post above. Cheers

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## yerimaginaryM8

Hope you like the PMA very happy with mine. I Like that tumbler, how well do you think it will hold up to extended use?  where did you buy the stainless pins for tumbling? If you want to get a trigger job then ssrnz Scott Trail seems pretty good with triggers he may be able to improve the timney. Mitch Maxburry stocks jewel triggers but they are pretty expensive. I have two of the rifle basix ERV3's they seem fine but not probably not in the same class as Jewels

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## xring

I bought this tumbler some 3 months back and its holding pretty well. You know, chinese stuff, not the best quality, but is doing its job. I use to use it 2-3 times each weekend tumbling 100 223 or 100 20VT. For 50 bucks plus shipping, I cant complain. 
The SS media was bought on Ebay for US 40 + shipping. 5 pounds. I may have lost some 10% of the media already...

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## yerimaginaryM8

Any issues with peening of the case mouths? I read that this can be an issue with the ss media? did you try a sonicating bath on the path that lead you to the ss tumbler?

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## rupert

Xring: I'd appreciate a heads up about where you got the Chinese tumbler? I've been looking for one for a while to try out the s/s media tumbling routine but have not seen anything available.

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## xring

yerimaginary, no issues with cases mouth. The tumbler does a pretty good job. I use sometimes sonic baths. The problem is I have a small one and I realized that it cleans brass up if you put up to 25 pieces only in two baths of 8 min each, so 8 batches total for 100 pieces. That's why I went for the SS media tumbling (less work). If I had a 2 or 3 L sonic, I wouldn't change methods.
rupert, I put a link of it in one of my previous post (first one in this page).
Cheers

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## zimmer

xring - I am also very keen on a cheap tumbler.  Just to confirm, it is this one that you bought?

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## xring

zimmer, at first glance that's the one I bought. Don't know if its from the same seller, but looks pretty much the same I have at home, even the collour and price.

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## wbyhuntr

Great thread, very informative!

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