# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Cop beaten and side arm taken.

## veitnamcam

Could have been a lot worse.

Courageous volunteers and passers-by intervene but... | Stuff.co.nz

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## ebf

Yup, good outcome to a scary situation.

Big ups to all the folks in blue out in the rural areas. Doing that kind of work, often on your own, takes a special kind of courage.

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## Wirehunt

So they will start  screaming arm the cops again.
"Griffin had gone to arrest a 19-year-old, who was wanted on outstanding warrants, shortly before 6pm on Friday"  So why would he go sole on a job like that?  (Cause he had a gun so thought he was good....)
Sounds much more like a major procedure change is needed.

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## veitnamcam

> So they will start  screaming arm the cops again.
> "Griffin had gone to arrest a 19-year-old, who was wanted on outstanding warrants, shortly before 6pm on Friday"  So why would he go sole on a job like that?  (Cause he had a gun so thought he was good....)
> *Sounds much more like a major procedure change is needed.*


Yep this could well have ended in a dead cop and a pistol in the hands of a criminal.

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## Toby

If the cop had the gun out and the guy went to attack he could always shoot. I dont think any cop wants to kill another man but it hes outlaw and attacking...

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## Dougie

Didn't the stuff article say he was the only cop on shift...? (Again, I'd hate to be the one person on! Scary!)

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## veitnamcam

Only one in the area, Perhaps should have waited for backup?

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## Dougie

> Only one in the area, Perhaps should have waited for backup?


Hindsight is a great thing huh. I'm sure the man thought he could handle it. The time it look to explain the situation in that interview would be ten fold the time the actual event took place. That's scary though, OC spray not taking effect...that 19yo would have been wild to brush it off and keep attacking. Not a nice thought.

 :Sad:

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## ebf

Toby, its been proven over and over again that if someone is within 7m of a person with a holstered pistol, and rushes them, you do not have enough time to draw and shoot. Think about that for a minute, and match that to the typical style of policing in NZ. I've seen this first hand and trained for it, even against someone who has skills, experience AND is aware that you are about to rush them, you can still get to them with a knife / club ...

Dougie, pepperspray or teargas is no match for methamphetamine  :Grin:

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## Toby

That's a good point ebf.

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## Dougie

> Dougie, pepperspray or teargas is no match for methamphetamine


Yeah my thoughts exactly but didn't want to jump to conclusions  :Wink:

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## Wirehunt

> Toby, its been proven over and over again that if someone is within 7m of a person with a holstered pistol, and rushes them, you do not have enough time to draw and shoot.


And much past 7 metres the accuracy is terrible as shown by the high fail rate of NZ police accuracy tests.

This is a procedure thing pure and simple, in fact OSH should be stepping in and fining the police for procedure fails.

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## 7mmwsm

> So they will start  screaming arm the cops again.
> "Griffin had gone to arrest a 19-year-old, who was wanted on outstanding warrants, shortly before 6pm on Friday"  So why would he go sole on a job like that?  (Cause he had a gun so thought he was good....)
> Sounds much more like a major procedure change is needed.


Wirehair whats your point about thinking he was good? Your comment appears to me to be derogatory toward our police.
Griff is a sole charge officer whos next nearest station is about 60km away in Ototrohanga. He has done a great job of cleaning up numerous peices of shit like these in the past, so it would have started as a routine operation for him. He didn't go around to their place to bust them there. If that was the case he would most likely have taken backup. They were on the wharf so he would have had to take advantage of the opportunty available. To wait for backup from the nearest available source(which the media stated was Cambridge, about 100 km away) would have meant the offenders would have vacated the area by the time backup arrived. And then these peices of shit work out that policing is actually an hour away and start using that to their advantage. I presume most sole charge officers around NZ would have acted exactly the same as Griff did.

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## Dougie

Positive thoughts going out to Griff, and wishes of a speedy recovery.

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## Bulltahr

Let the disection by internet experts begin!!
BTW all my experiances with sole charge cops have been good, it's city ones that have P#$%ed me off.

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## veitnamcam

End of the day we can all coulda shoula woulda till the cows come home and change nothing.

Thing that concerns me is a handgun could have got into criminal hands directly from the police, the opposite of what should happen! and its not the first time!
I dont have the answers, no doubt there will be an investigation of some sort into what went wrong and how to prevent it in the future. 

I only hope they get it right!

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## Beanie

> And much past 7 metres the accuracy is terrible as shown by the high fail rate of NZ police accuracy tests.
> 
> This is a procedure thing pure and simple, in fact OSH should be stepping in and fining the police for procedure fails.


WIREHUNT you dont know what the hell you are talking about. Police arrest people with Warrants daily when they are found out and about. This is normal procude and there is no back up steps for one man stations to call for other staff. He was not at the offenders address looking for him he was in a public area. City staff have 2 up cars which turn the tide a lot more then 1 up cars.

If you know what the procedures are then you could comment, OSH has nothing to do with it. Police work like this all the time and he used all that he had to stop the people attacking him before he even got to the pistol.

7mmwwsm
Thankyou for a proper view on things, public live in there bubble and have no idea what happens on the street until it happens to them or they see it on the news and arm chair comments are great when they are not the ones doing the job.

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## Rushy

> And much past 7 metres the accuracy is terrible as shown by the high fail rate of NZ police accuracy tests.
> 
> This is a procedure thing pure and simple, in fact OSH should be stepping in and fining the police for procedure fails.


Wirehunt in my opinion the NZ Police will have conducted risk analysis of their common tasks / situations in conjunction with serving officers and they will have prepared safe work methods in conjunction with and taking into consideration the field experience of serving officers and they will have inducted and trained their officers in them.  I think this because that is what any employer needs to do in order to ensure a safe work place.   However, the best training in the world will never completely mitigate the exposure to incident in a role where there are so many variables.

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## Neckshot

I have to agree, 5 on one shoot one then overrun by other four could be another story.reality is to have more cop's imo

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## Wirehunt

> Wirehair whats your point about thinking he was good? *Your comment appears to me to be derogatory toward our police.*
> Griff is a sole charge officer whos next nearest station is about *60km away in Ototrohanga*. He has done a great job of cleaning up numerous peices of shit like these in the past, so it would have started as a routine operation for him. He didn't go around to their place to bust them there. If that was the case he would most likely have taken backup. They were on the wharf so he would have had to take advantage of the opportunty available. To wait for backup from the nearest available source(which the media stated was Cambridge,* about 100 km awa*y) would have meant the offenders would have vacated the area by the time backup arrived. And then these peices of shit work out that policing is actually an hour away and start using that to their advantage. I presume most sole charge officers around NZ would have acted exactly the same as Griff did.


Nothing derogatory in it 7mmwsm, it's a stated fact by the NZ police itself.  They are terrible shots as a rule with a high accuracy fail rate. So why would he go in if he felt so unsafe that unless there was a gun on board he might be in trouble.
But if you read the article it states *"He had discussed with his supervisor the need to have all his tactical options on him," Lindsay said.*  So they had talked about it before hand.  If they had time to talk about this one thing then they also had time to talk about other options.   Maybe one like sit back and wait for backup?...  Just a suggestion.

Or to put it another way, workplace health and safety would fine him maybe, his supervisor defiantly  plus the company (police) if this was any other workplace incident.

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## ebf

> This is a procedure thing pure and simple, in fact OSH should be stepping in and fining the police for procedure fails.


 :ORLY:  hope you never have to call on the police to help you in rural NZ, coz in your OSH world all the single-cop-on-duty stations would be closed

seriously mate, I think you've gone a bit off the reservation here. you'd fine them, i'd rather give them recognition for doing an extremely difficult and dangerous job, and wish this particular guy a speedy recovery.

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## Neckshot

I have a few cop mates who i joyride with all the time and doing warrant checks ,for a laugh theyd get me to do the check but there was still three of us at the time.Single cpos are always singled out as is what happens in dannevirke all to often under staffd is what the problem is IMO .handguns will only get you you so far i beleive we need more cops in the rural areas.

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## Dougie

Sounds like Bernie is in the know here...not many people use "1up" without knowing what it actually is....  :Have A Nice Day:  I'm obviously biast but thank you NZPolice!!! I love you (seriously I do!)

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## Chris

I certainly hope that the guy makes a full recovery ,tough guy doing a hard job we all need to be great full to these people.They doing their best to keep our communities safe places . I think when we factor Meth; into these situations perhaps a harder line needs to be adopted ,apparently pepper stray isn't doing it.Maybe the side arm should be used in the 1st instance.
I have a cousin was attacked while doing her duty ,now unable to work as a result of the bone in her nose being pushed back into her brain.On permanent medication to keep her functioning with some semblance of normality.

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## Wirehunt

> IMO .handguns will only get you you so far i beleive we need more cops in the rural areas.


Spot on!  At the very least any rural cops should have a dog.

ebf quote    "hope you never have to call on the police to help you in rural NZ, coz in your OSH world all the single-cop-on-duty stations would be closed

seriously mate, I think you've gone a bit off the reservation here. you'd fine them, i'd rather give them recognition for doing an extremely difficult and dangerous job, and wish this particular guy a speedy recovery."

Never said it wasn't a dangerous job or difficult.  But it is also no where near the most dangerous OR difficult job in NZ.  Yet we seem to be working on the usual different standards for different people thing yet again.  It's called risk assessment.  The rest of us have to abide by it (OR ELSE!!).

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## compound

This is a "live in" Police job out there. The guy is sole officer, lives there, technically on duty 24 hours. Backup is 45 minutes away in another district as such. Population maybe 600. Knows most people by first name basis. This is like being an outback sheriff but without deputies. Sad to see everyone stood back and just watched, obviously these guys have put some fear into the residents. Places like this sadly dont get backup, just mop up.

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## Wirehunt

> Wirehunt in my opinion the NZ Police will have conducted risk analysis of their common tasks / situations in conjunction with serving officers and they will have prepared safe work methods in conjunction with and taking into consideration the field experience of serving officers and they will have inducted and trained their officers in them.  I think this because that is what any employer needs to do in order to ensure a safe work place.   However, the best training in the world will never completely mitigate the exposure to incident in a role where there are so many variables.


I agree to a point.  Then add adrenalin into the equation and thing's go astray, procedures get forgotten, corners cut etc. Same in any trade.

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## Savage1

Yes Wirehunt you are a long way off.

If OSH had anything to do with it then Police would never be able to do their job, like sending OSH inspectors over with our troops to a warzone.

Have you ever been in a close quarters fight with a person and had your adrenalin pumping then tested your accuracy with a heavy triggered Glock? Pretty harsh to slag off their marksmanship just because others can shoot a 50c piece at 100m at a range.

Do you know how much time goes into training a dog? And when working alone they can become a liability in group situations?

Really looking at the basic facts the officer would have been justified in shooting the people attacking him, but imagine the headlines today. I'm sure there is more to this story than we have been told.

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## Wirehunt

> Have you ever been in a close quarters fight with a person and had your adrenalin pumping then tested your accuracy with a heavy triggered Glock? Pretty harsh to slag off their marksmanship just because others can shoot a 50c piece at 100m at a range.


One problem Savage, this is at police ranges without that pressure.

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## Dougie

> One problem Savage, this is at police ranges without that pressure.


Where are you getting Police range score information from?

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## Maca49

> Yep this could well have ended in a dead cop and a pistol in the hands of a criminal.


Shit the cops need more controls on their firearms!!

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## Maca49

Arm the police with 12g shot toys and return the glocks to the manufacture, if a cop needs to use a firearm it should be deadly force, no wing shots, and with a pump action there is the ability to get more than one, even two at once. P or no P

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## ebf

> Shit the cops need more controls on their firearms!!


 :Wtfsmilie:  maca, why don't you stop the next cop you see and have a chat to him/her about the controls they have in place regarding storage of firearms in response cars, and the process they have to follow before getting authorization to use the firearm...

Might be an eye opener for you...

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## ebf

Oh, and ask them what their thoughts are about your 12g idea, their response might make a fun video to upload to YouTube....

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## Maca49

> Oh, and ask them what their thoughts are about your 12g idea, their response might make a fun video to upload to YouTube....


I'd run from a pistol but not a shotgun

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## Maca49

Probably all about training and experience

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## Maca49

> maca, why don't you stop the next cop you see and have a chat to him/her about the controls they have in place regarding storage of firearms in response cars, and the process they have to follow before getting authorization to use the firearm...
> 
> Might be an eye opener for you...


They may also look at the rules of engagement

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## RimfireNZ

> If the cop had the gun out and the guy went to attack he could always shoot. I dont think any cop wants to kill another man but it hes outlaw and attacking...


Nah Toby, the public and media *crucifies* a cop over here if they shoot someone to defend themselves. You see it time and time again.

Not only would the officer have to come to grips with the fact they just killed someone, the media would drag them and their family through the news and papers, calling it "excessive force" and going on about how it wasn't necessary, basically calling for the cops head... without being there.

Screw sending our cops into some of the shit they have to deal with unarmed. It's not like the crims are unarmed.

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## Maca49

I think as a nation we need to harden up to criminals and give some real punishment. Assault a cop in he line of duty and get 20 years,if it doesn't work as a deterent well at they would not be causing no harm to others. I glad none of my kids are policemen

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## Rushy

Run for PM Maca49.  I will shift into your electorate and vote for you.

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## Maca49

> Run for PM Maca49.  I will shift into your electorate and vote for you.


I must be the most frustrated man on earth according to my wife, got to say we need to change the rules for crims.
Hanging a few would be a start.

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## Rushy

> I must be the most frustrated man on earth according to my wife, got to say we need to change the rules for crims.
> Hanging a few would be a start.


I have rope and although I have never understood why, my grandfather taught me how to tie a hangman's noose when I was a young fellah.  Now that that has come to the front of my mind I must see if I still remember how.

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## ebf

Macca, had a think about your initial comments again (tighten controls and 12g), and thought that you might have been taking the piss by applying gun-control rhetoric to the police. If that was the case, my brain was obviously not in first gear yesterday.

But having read your latest comments, I don't know - it's kind of Genghis Khan meets Jane Fonda  :Grin:

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## Happy

+ 1 on Time to suit the crime. Some standardisation for crimes taking out the wide range of options would make things
clearer to the crims. IE: Assault PO or his dog mimimum X Years sentence. Steal car same or burglary or assault or drug crimes or whatever.
Get firmer on them and no transparency do this result = you get this.
 Support Sensible Sentencing for sure.
 Seen results a few times its the victims and families hurt the most and then a soft sentence to the poor crim cos he s or shes had a hard little life..
 Thats the ultimate smack in the face for the victims and its bull really. Then it seems the crims get a reasonably soft ride through the prison system.. (Note "seems" have no experience at all about this)

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## Toby

Sisters fucking lame ex boyfriend had $15,000 worth of stolen shit, he got 3 months home d. Fucking bullshit as

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## Maca49

> I have rope and although I have never understood why, my grandfather taught me how to tie a hangman's noose when I was a young fellah.  Now that that has come to the front of my mind I must see if I still remember how.


Dont tell my wife she will want you to tie one for her use!

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## Maca49

> Macca, had a think about your initial comments again (tighten controls and 12g), and thought that you might have been taking the piss by applying gun-control rhetoric to the police. If that was the case, my brain was obviously not in first gear yesterday.
> 
> But having read your latest comments, I don't know - it's kind of Genghis Khan meets Jane Fonda


ebf Most is tongue in cheek, except when Im serious. Your choice, but this should never happen to a cop, I dont go to work and expose myself to this type of treatment, when it happens to a cop hit it with a sledge hammer, No cop should be hurt or killed in doing their job,
It is unacceptable.

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## Savage1

I don't think the problem is with lack of prison time, it's that life in prison is far to comfortable. They are in there with their mates and TV etc. Should be solitary confinement with nothing but educational books to read, you might even be able to reduce sentences if it is that much less desirable. IMHO

Most of the "hard" criminals I have met have either looked forward to prison or aren't fussed at all going back.

Pisses me off that the one assault charge that relates to assaulting Police holds less of a sentence than the equivalent common assault charge.

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## veitnamcam

A bit on one news about excessive force.
ffs he was disarmed and beaten, clearly not enough force was used.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Rushy

Yeh with you on that VC.  Seems that what was reported is being refuted by many good citizens.

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## Toby

See the thing on the news where they cut that guys hand off in mali or some place.

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## veitnamcam

Missed that

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## Toby

He broke the rules but they werent clear on what he broke.

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## Rushy

> See the thing on the news where they cut that guys hand off in mali or some place.


Yes I did Toby.  It has actually been a quite common punishment for theft in Islamic countries through the centuries.  the reason it is on the news is that the Al Queda sympathisers that are trying to take control of Mali are using that sort of punishment to make the locals toe the line.

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## Chris

[QUOTE=veitnamcam;74280]A bit on one news about excessive force.
ffs he was disarmed and beaten, clearly not enough force was used.

No where near enough force & the wrong guy in hospital .
Almost makes me wonder if he was set up for that beating .

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## Proudkiwi

I'm gonna make myself unpopular and say that while it was an unfortunate outcome for the officer, he made a bad judgement call in deciding to push for an arrest. When he realised it was going sideways at the very beginning he should have backed off and waited for another day.

The only time he should really have pushed his luck with the arrest is if other members of the public etc would have been put in immediate and serious harm’s way if the guy was left to walk around.

Short answer is he fucked up and paid the price.

Typically sole charge cops are chosen (even though you actually apply for the slot) because they tend to be a little more relaxed, realistic, calm and have a bit of experience. Unfortunately I'm not seeing those traits in this example.

Everyone makes mistakes though and ultimately he got away pretty lightly given the depth of poo he got himself into.

I hope that he recovers quickly, learns from the experience and comes back an even better cop than before.

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## peril 787b

Hold on there Kiwi, the cop was tackled by a guy who ran across from the other side of the road. Then everyone pounced on him. Had he waited for backup, the guy who he had the warrant for may have bailed. 
Kawhia is turning into a bad place compared to the quaint fishing town it used to be. Maybe Griff has been stationed there for ages?
Previous comments by others about prison being too nice, totally agree. It ought to be cold bare concrete floors, no windows, bad meals (with barely sufficient nutritional value) and make them work hard for no gain. 
3 serious convictions = string em up. No pussy footing "oh he's had a hard life" soft touch sentences...

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## 7mmwsm

Looks to me like Proudkiwi read and fell for the shit that was on the front page of yesterdays Waikato Times. A picture of a guy standing with his arms spread out wide, Griff is standing in front of him with his taser drawn. The subjects body language is saying "bring it on copper", the caption says the subject is in the in the act of surrendering. Typical of the media.

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## Proudkiwi

Peril 787b & 7mmwsm - I'm not sure if you have read and comprehended my post properly. My comments were based on facts submitted from both camps and regardless of those facts I still stand by my position.

Risk management is a factor in every job under the sun. For frontline cops, the consequences of managing the risk incorrectly are generally much higher than for say a retail assistant. I would like to think that every cop is aware of that when they sign up.

As for the guy on a warrant getting away before backup showed - who cares. Do you have any idea how many warrants are issued by the courts every week? A truck load!!!

As soon as he realised it was going pear shaped he should have backed off and sorted it another day. Instead we have what we have. It could have ended up WAY worse given he lost both his glock and taser.

In short, it was a fuck up.

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## Rushy

Proudkiwi, it had the potential to go pear shaped irrespective of the actions or inactions of the constable.  Imagine for a moment that the constable had acted as you suggest and stood down from attempting the arrest and the subject had then subsequent to leaving committed an heinous crime (assault, rape, murder).  Those circumstances would attract similar criticism of the actions of the constable from certain quarters of society.  The role of the Police is not an easy one and in my view they deserve far greater support from the community for the good (often thankless) work they do.  I know that they choose to enter the job knowing what it entails and I for one am grateful that they do.

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## Nibblet

> In short, it was a fuck up.


It was fucked up, fucked up at the lack of respect and help shown towards a Police officer. 
Walking away would be a lot easier said than done with the adrenalin going, wanting to carry out your job/not wanting to empower the bastard criminals by showing both them and the public that your 'scared' (view that would be perceived) of them.

As far as I'm aware none of us were there so its all if, buts and maybes. 

No one died and the gun made it back to police hands so maybe we should all just be thankful for small miracles?

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## Proudkiwi

Nibblet, you have just reinforced the position I have taken in my posts.

All of the reasons you have outlined for pushing forward with an arrest are the EXACT opposite of what a professional police officer should be considering. Its thought processes like that that lead to fuck ups.

Consider this. Offender is sitting with mates having a beer while fishing. Cop comes along knowing there is a warrant for his arrest and thinks to himself, 'score, I have been looking for you for a while.' He goes over and says "Hello sunshine, can I have a chat for a minute? Theres a warrant out for you that we really need to get tidied up"

Offender feeling all empowered bacause he has a bunch of mates around him says - "piss off

Cop realising that this could go sideways big time thinks to himself "yeah, this really isint worth me getting shit kicked over and its a warrant for a pretty minor offence" so says to the offender "sweet as, I'll do you a deal, if you come to see me at the station tomorrow we can sort it out then"

Offender doesnt lose face in front of his mates, cop looks like a seriously reasonable sort in front of everyone including the offender, his mates, all bystanders and the offenders family. And if he does come to the station the following day then even better. Not saying he will, but in my experience it happens at least 20% of the time depending on how you deal with it.

If the cop thinks there is very little chance he will come in, he waits and watches till the offender is on his own, ideally asleep, and goes and does the business on his terms.

Its what smart cops do.

What actually happened was anything but smart. It was a fuck up.

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## Nibblet

Yeah fair call.

From what I have seen and read it's pretty hard to tell how fast things went pear shaped though. So I think arguing either side of the fence is all heresy.

Something I think everyone in this forum can agree on is the lack of respect people in this country a beginning to show towards the uniform is unacceptable, from the amount of people who try to do runners in cars to those who just blatantly attack officers in the last few months. The speed at which the Police get lynched by the media and made guilty with 5/8ths of fuck all facts being known is astonishing. 

I personally would love to see BOTH harsher penalties AND Thailand-esk prisons. Give them a reason to comply. Won't deter all but will make most common people think twice.

That's my rant over.

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## Savage1

It was a fuck up, no doubt about it. But there are so many situations in everyday policing that can go pearshaped like this very quickly. 

Bail checks, traffic stops and domestics are all situations where there is potential for big fuk ups and no doubt than when they occur then people are going to sit on their keyboards and say there is no way they should've gone in there. Confrontation is a frequent part of policing.

He had backup there, the firebrigade were in the photos, not Police but can still act under instruction. This guy was obviously a high priority target and had a history of avoiding Police. The cop went in there as prepared as he could be except for waiting for other Police, in which time his opportunity may have gone. Why didn't his backup jump in straight away? They were right there. I think there is more to this than we know.

It's very easy to slag him off on here but we don't know the full circumstances and we also have the beauty of hindsight, the Constable didn't. As a nation we seem to call a person brave if they succeed and stupid if they don't.

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## el borracho

why didn't the cop use advanced Kung fu techniques on the 7 while shooting them all in the left knee because that's really easy and he is trained in all that stuff - he could have then used his wonder woman truth lassoo and interrogated them all at once --I cant understand why he didnt ??

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## Nibblet

> I cant understand why he didnt ??


Nor can I?

Wish I had fists as big as her!

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## Rushy

> why didn't the cop use advanced Kung fu techniques on the 7 while shooting them all in the left knee because that's really easy and he is trained in all that stuff - he could have then used his wonder woman truth lassoo and interrogated them all at once --I cant understand why he didnt ??


I am old enough to remember Linda Carter in her prime.  Thanks for the memory El B

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## Wirehunt

> Where are you getting Police range score information from?


We'll start with
"Dunedin is also revealed as the best place in New Zealand to pull off a bank robbery, after police admit that more than 25% of police who failed their firearms test were from the Southern region." from Ups and downs, but no worries | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News

It's been pretty well publicised Dougie.

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## Dougie

I wasn't having a go, I was just asking.

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## veitnamcam

The thing here is police dont join the force because they are interested in shooting, sure some are but most are not.
Its not uncommon to be shit at something you have no interest in.

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## Dougie

> The thing here is police dont join the force because they are interested in shooting, sure some are but most are not.
> Its not uncommon to be shit at something you have no interest in.


I think that's a really good point. However I could bet that most cops are interested in surviving  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Maca49

I really cannot understand anyone wanting to join the police force with the lack of tools they now possess to carry out their job. You would live in a world of scumbags. Give the force some force and forget the PC shit.

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## Wirehunt

They have enough force now Maca, however what happens in the courtroom is pretty useless.  That is what needs a real sharpen up.

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## 7mmwsm

> We'll start with
> "Dunedin is also revealed as the best place in New Zealand to pull off a bank robbery, after police admit that more than 25% of police who failed their firearms test were from the Southern region." from Ups and downs, but no worries | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News
> 
> It's been pretty well publicised Dougie.


Well it was in the news paper so it has to be true!!!

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## Wirehunt

Jesus 7mm, all I can do is take it at face value, don't have the time or a few spare million $$$ to get everything fact checked.

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## veitnamcam

I can say from seeing cops at a local range it was not spectacular.
And why would you expect it to be they are cops not marksmen.


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## Wirehunt

You want to try taking some of them out after small furry critters.   A rather large eye opener.  Cowboys and wild west rings true.   :Grin:   :Grin:   :Grin:

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## Chris

So how long have the police been subjected to trial by media.
Would like to see is if those media dick heads can do better.
If they think they can do the job more effectively ?

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## von tempsky fan

my missus is a cop here in tauranga and I get the shits when she says she had to get kitted up with a glock or m4 , the community would NOT be safe. she could not hit a barn door let alone an offender! Shes left eye dominant and right handed  and 55kg wringing wet -bad combo

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## Maca49

> They have enough force now Maca, however what happens in the courtroom is pretty useless.  That is what needs a real sharpen up.


When you can swear at a cop or spit in their face without charge they don't have enough force, we need respect for the police, as it was when I was young a quick kick up the arse never hurt anyone

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## Wirehunt

> When you can swear at a cop or spit in their face without charge they don't have enough force, we need respect for the police, as it was when I was young a quick kick up the arse never hurt anyone



See above Maca.  If the court grew a set that WOULD NOT happen.  Instead we have the soft cock version.

I understand the cops do the work then get let down from above and that should indeed be where the real work is happening.  The cops and those they bust know this.

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## Dead is better

A good shot with a pistol will take you out at 60m. Buckshot will be hard pressed killing at that range and beyond. If the police need more money for more practice at the range then so be it. Make it happen *politicians*! It what we pay your useless arses for

IMO kiwi cops are brave az. I wouldnt like to face some massive dude and his mates on my own. Especially knowing the bleeding heart public are going to second guess me no matter what. So much for that new legislation that was brought in 2 years ago - the bit that said it was a criminal offense to not render assistance to an officer in need. 

As for the OSH arguement. Aussie cops are some of the most law abiding cops in the world (these days). Never there when you need em 'cause they are controlled by OH&S as they call it. Tell em you're armed and going to sort the intruder out, then you'll see how close they really were all along!

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## Chris

I don't see how the police trying to do their duty is any business of OSH! Seems like a government department operating outside their designated role.I think the media ,OSH ,central government & the justice system needs a serious sort out . Give our police the tools,funding & empower them so they can do the job without all the B/S that isn't actually helping them .

The incident out at Waihi beach new years eve is an example.The guy hears a noise & goes out to investigate & gets stabbed in the head.The piece of shit that did it was on bail for a previous assult, he was apparently in breach of his bail conditions.No shit Shirlock .
The guy he stabbed has since died from the injuries. Whats the piece of shit doing out on bail FFS.

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## Wirehunt

> Aussie cops are some of the most law abiding cops in the world (these days).


Laughed my arse off at this.  Thing's must have changed a hell of a lot....

There's the point Chris.  The fucking beck should have left them in clink.

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## Maca49

> I don't see how the police trying to do their duty is any business of OSH! Seems like a government department operating outside their designated role.I think the media ,OSH ,central government & the justice system needs a serious sort out . Give our police the tools,funding & empower them so they can do the job without all the B/S that isn't actually helping them .
> 
> The incident out at Waihi beach new years eve is an example.The guy hears a noise & goes out to investigate & gets stabbed in the head.The piece of shit that did it was on bail for a previous assult, he was apparently in breach of his bail conditions.No shit Shirlock .
> The guy he stabbed has since died from the injuries. Whats the piece of shit doing out on bail FFS.


Because he has rights like everyone -except me I seem to have lost mine and am paying for all this - probably along with you and yours

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## Rushy

Oh yes Maca don't get us started on the amount of tax we pay otherwise I will start flooding the forum like a burst dam.  PAYE is the most unfair system as far as I am concerned.

Back to the Police discussion, I am an advocate for giving them all the support that they need and that continues through to tougher sentences being handed down by the courts.  Outside of this public forum I would say either hang the criminals or flog the pricks.

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## gimp

> We'll start with
> "Dunedin is also revealed as the best place in New Zealand to pull off a bank robbery, after police admit that more than 25% of police who failed their firearms test were from the Southern region." from Ups and downs, but no worries | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News
> 
> It's been pretty well publicised Dougie.


That doesn't actually say how many there were. 25% of those that failed were from the Southern region, but that could be 1 of 4 nationwide. It's useless.

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## R93

IMO, its money that in a large part, dictates competency with firearms where Police and dare I say it, military are concerned. I left the military a wee while ago but during my career I trained a fair bit with the police. They used to seek out the certain skills off the Army as far as weapons handling went.
Most if not all Police I came in to contact with, back then, were competent with firearms before they got too us. Budget cuts in both the Police force and Army and from what I hear from mates that are still serving, has resulted in a drop in proficiency across the board.
I seen it happen over the last 10 yrs I served. 

The queens medal cut off, used to be the top 40 shooters Army wide, with hundreds if not thousands of trialists from both RF and TF. This was after regional competition and selection. I am happy to be corrected, but I hear now, they are lucky, just too get 40 to attend the queens medal shoot.

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## Wirehunt

> That doesn't actually say how many there were. 25% of those that failed were from the Southern region, but that could be 1 of 4 nationwide. It's useless.


No gimp.  That tells you that 25% failed.  It doesn't matter a fuck if 25% is 1 or 500, it's still 25%

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## gimp

Did you not read what it says?

It doesn't say that 25% of police failed.


It says that (more than) 25% OF the police that failed, quantity not stated, were from the Southern Region. It doesn't support your argument at all.




> police admit that more than 25% of police who failed their firearms test were from the Southern region




I have no side in whatever this thread is about, but sloppy arguing techniques like that annoy me


It's also a terribly written article, but it's the ODT so that's business as usual.

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## Wirehunt

I thought it was simple maths. 25% from the southern region failed.  So of the 100% that are rated/tested for firearms use 25% aren't capable of doing the job. Is it not that simple?

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## gimp

Simple reading comprehension, because that's not what it says.


It doesn't say that 25% of police failed. 

It doesn't say that 25% of police from the Southern Region failed.


It says that of those that failed nationwide, more than one quarter came from the Southern Region. Indicating that perhaps the Southern Region has poor training compared to other regions, but nothing about the nationwide status of training as it doesn't give any % of police that failed nationwide.

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## Wirehunt

> A good shot with a pistol will take you out at 60m.


I'd like to see that.  A good shot with a pistol will hit the barn door at 60 metres.

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## gimp

Look up Elmer Keith sometime.....


Amongst his noted feats is the shooting of an Elk, wounded by his hunting partner with a rifle, at 500 odd yards with a .44 magnum revolver. He was a famous long range pistol shooter, and the father of the .44 mag cartridge. 


Pistols are a lot more accurate than often thought, just a lot harder to shoot accurately than a rifle.

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## Wirehunt

And how are they for snap shooting gimp at say 30 metres?

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## gimp

Pretty good if you have some proper training, should see what good IPSC, USPSA etc shooters can do, even in production class, or the 'tactical' instructors like Frank Proctor, Chris Costa, etc etc

I'd link some videos but my wifi and ipad are conspiring against me.

Obviously no rifle in terms of accuracy and power but can still be pretty effective

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## Savage1

When it comes to it the pistol 9mm pistol is pretty hopeless. All fine motor skills are lost including trigger control in a high danger situation so rounds get sprayed . The furthest a person in NZ has been shot by a Police pistol is 7 metres, people have been missed from much closer. 30m snap shooting may be achievable on a range with a fancy pistol but cannot be realistically expected by a Police Officer, or anyone, in a high stress situation with a glock, hence why they have an m4. The 9mm has much less stopping power than the .223 as well.

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## Towely

What Savage said ^^

Pistol -- very VERY easy to miss with, even at closer than 10 meters. It is very unfair to think that every cop is a Jerry Miculeck. This is not the movies.

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## Toby

Have a shotgun, sounds like they will have more luck hitting someone with it.

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## Herne

Slightly of topic here, but still relevant - I recently went through Christchurch Airport and with out thinking too hard about it, I walked past an armed police officer, who was helping some tourist's find the exit (?) or something. Thing was, this guy was totally distracted and as I walked behind him (very close) it would have been so easy to get my hands on that pistol. Scary to think about, and I hope I don't give some extremist an idea here.
In the States, no one gets within an arms length of an armed officer. 
That's a huge change of culture that our cops would have to face if they were to carry a sidearm routinely.

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## Maca49

> When it comes to it the pistol 9mm pistol is pretty hopeless. All fine motor skills are lost including trigger control in a high danger situation so rounds get sprayed . The furthest a person in NZ has been shot by a Police pistol is 7 metres, people have been missed from much closer. 30m snap shooting may be achievable on a range with a fancy pistol but cannot be realistically expected by a Police Officer, or anyone, in a high stress situation with a glock, hence why they have an m4. The 9mm has much less stopping power than the .223 as well.


So you been training the police?

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## Maca49

> What Savage said ^^
> 
> Pistol -- very VERY easy to miss with, even at closer than 10 meters. It is very unfair to think that every cop is a Jerry Miculeck. This is not the movies.


My record about 40 yrs ago was 100 rounds for 1 hare is just not economical either

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## gimp

I should point out that I was responding to comments that its impossible to hit anything at all with a pistol, not talking about the Nz police

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## gimp

> In the States, no one gets within an arms length of an armed officer.


I don't think this is true. It certainly isn't in Australia or Thailand, both countries with armed police. I doubt the US is any different. Can't be constantly spinning around suspiciously eyeing everyone who walks behind you all day.

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## Wirehunt

> I should point out that I was responding to comments that its impossible to hit anything at all with a pistol, not talking about the Nz police


Jesus gimp, and it's not impossible to constantly hit a target a 1000 metres either. But I don't expect general cops to be shooting at half that range.

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## gimp

Again, I wasn't talking about the police, it's pretty common knowledge that their training is shit


I was responding to 





> I'd like to see that.  A good shot with a pistol will hit the barn door at 60 metres.



Which doesn't say anything about police, neither do my posts

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## Savage1

> So you been training the police?


No way, I'm not even close to being qualified in any way to train the Police. I do know a bit about their training though.

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