# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  Shooting: The sport all of us enjoy - do your part in preserving the ability to do so

## Ryan

Shooters: All of you - endorsed or otherwise, please read this.

New Zealanders have long enjoyed the pastime of hunting, target shooting and all other lawful recreational uses of firearms. Indeed, it is part of our national heritage.  A great many of us have been brought up among firearms, many are reliant upon it to put food on the table. Many are reliant upon it to destroy pests which would otherwise prevent food arriving at our tables.

There are also a significant number of sports shooters across various pistol, rifle and shotgun disciplines. Our men and women have and continue to win high acclaim throughout the years on the sports field in the safe pursuit of their shooting discipline. Fundamentally we all enjoy the same sport, regardless of discipline. 

Unfortunately, however, there are those who seek to impose further restrictions on law-abiding firearm owners without any substantial evidence to support these restrictions. They also seek to promote these restrictions outside the scope of New Zealand firearm law as defined by the Arms Act 1983 which is illegal.

As to why these agendas are being pursued is frankly not important right now. I urge you to familiarise yourself with the Arms Act 1983. 

Arms Act 1983 No 44 (as at 01 March 2017), Public Act Contents &ndash; New Zealand Legislation

Admittedly it is not easy reading but I urge every one of you to attempt to familiarise yourself with it as there are certainly policies that have changed recently (note: policies are NOT law) that could potentially become law. These will potentially affect all licensed firearm owners. 

These are changes that are occurring behind closed doors.

These should not be the actions of a democratically elected government.

We all have the power to change it. There are people in the recognised legal fraternity that have years of knowledge and experience with dealing with this. To support a recognised legal entity who is experienced in looking after your legal interests as a firearm owner please support Nicholas Taylor - Barrister BA LLB. 

For more information concerning firearms legislation and various other aspects pertaining to the subject please consult the KiwiGunblog. I encourage the observer to keep an open mind and view the facts and references as presented.

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## Ryan

...



> 23 March 2017 - I do not usually contribute to forums as it not the correct way for me deal with or give proper, considered legal advice, however in this circumstance I can indicate the following: 
> 
> The New Zealand Licenced Firearms Dealers (NZLFD) Trust has instructed me to being preparing for a Judicial Review proceeding (pursuant to the Judicature Act 1908) to be filed in June of this year against the Commissioner of Police. The NZLFD Trust is a registered legal entity for the purposes of this action. It has now received for legal services, from a total of 28 licenced firearms dealers, organisations and individuals in New Zealand, a total of approximately $30,000 the Trust Target is $50,000. As with any litigation that is commenced, it is critical to have enough funds to pay for legal costs, court fees and witness expenses, but in addition, to have sufficient available if the decision goes against you to pay for costs if awarded. Obviously if successful, then an award of costs with be folded back into the Trust for potential action for another time, or appeals if appropriate. 
> 
> The current issues that the Trust is asking me to seek clarification on, by way of declarations from the court, are:
> 
> 1.	Is the police policy in regards to Safes and Security lawful or ultra vires their authority under the Arms Act 1983 or Arms Regulation 1992?
> 2.	Is the police policy in regards to the measurement of MSSA firearms by police lawful or ultra vires their authority under the Arms Act 1983 or Arms Regulation 1992?
> 3.	Is the police policy in regards to the imposition of conditions on the importation for restricted firearms and air guns and other standard firearms by the police lawful or ultra vires their authority under the Arms Act 1983 or Arms Regulation 1992?
> ...

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## Jexla

Thanks for sharing Ryan, would have been good to see a few people replying to this thread. Unfortunately most just don't give a toss.

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## Ryan

Whilst it would have been good to have some discussion on the topic, my hope is that people have at least read it and taken on board what is happening around them. Today is *the day* folks - L&O select committee recommendations (read police's recommendations) are going to be made public. Reading is from 1000 to 1130:

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/sc/s...e-of-meetings/

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## Gillie

Yep, am watching with interest. 
We are also planning a shooting competition towards the end of May in which all proceeds will go towards the NZLFD Trust. Just have to confirm the date and we'll start advertising it. In the theme of our last couple of shoots we are hoping to put about $1000 into the NZLFD Trust fund from it. I can't do that personally but I can certainly run a shoot and donate the funds from it. 

Jonathon Young is also my local MP. Be interesting to read the L&O Select Committee findings and depending on what they recommend go and have a chat with him about it.

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## mikee

I do give a toss and will be supporting with dollars where and when I can,  but the pessimistic side of me can't help thinking that all the different firearms user groups will be falling over themselves throwing other firearms user groups under the bus in the vain hope they can keep there own stuff. Please god I hope I am wrong but ....................................

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## Ryan

> I do give a toss and will be supporting with dollars where and when I can,  but the pessimistic side of me can't help thinking that all the different firearms user groups will be falling over themselves throwing other firearms user groups under the bus in the vain hope they can keep there own stuff. Please god I hope I am wrong but ....................................


Well if people do adopt that attitude, they are stupid quite frankly. Selfish and stupid. They need to put the common good ahead of their own interests.

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## Beavis

May be different this time. Maybe. I've received messages from hunting friends that in the past haven't given a toss, but this time they're asking about what we need to do.

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## mikee

> Well if people do adopt that attitude, they are stupid quite frankly. Selfish and stupid. They need to put the common good ahead of their own interests.


I agree but past experience in other countries as well as here would indicate differently sadly

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## zimmer

> I agree but past experience in other countries as well as here would indicate differently sadly


Go no further than our closest neighbour to where I lived the Gun Club group publicly tried to distance themselves from the other shooting groups. (We are all respectable businessmen blah blah.)

And all ready at home a group has come across the same in recent past.

Same as the critical sentiment expressed towards the AR shooters by non AR shooters. I am non AR but understand their interest/enthusiasm.

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## Ryan

Should be about to kick off shortly - I don't have access to freeview otherwise I'd watch. Channel 36 I believe.

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## gonetropo

> Go no further than our closest neighbour to where I lived the Gun Club group publicly tried to distance themselves from the other shooting groups. (We are all respectable businessmen blah blah.)
> 
> And all ready at home a group has come across the same in recent past.
> 
> Same as the critical sentiment expressed towards the AR shooters by non AR shooters. I am non AR but understand their interest/enthusiasm.


i never thought i would own a "mouse gun" but they are fun and sort of like ikea furniture, you can keep swapping bits and improving them. unfortunately the wife seems to wan to own it despite the fact she has an sks to play with (among other toys)

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## Ryan

> Update: The L&O Select Committee has accepted the 5th and final draft of their Report on the Firearms Inquiry, by majority vote.
> 
> It will be tabled, at the earliest, tomorrow or Friday (probably), at which point it will become publicly available.


Great.

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## Sasquatch

> but the pessimistic side of me can't help thinking that all the different firearms user groups will be falling over themselves throwing other firearms user groups under the bus in the vain hope they can keep there own stuff. Please god I hope I am wrong but ....................................






I know things are vastly different in the US but the start of this video applies to NZ and what is going on currently as we speak.

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## R93

Very relevant clip. Well thought out.

Unfortunately most people against guns are just too stupid to reason with.



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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## Ryan

Common theme here is not learning from past experiences and that things cannot change. Change is borne not from an idea but an action. Easy to suggest to someone, "hey come and shoot with me". That's an idea. Actually take someone there and show them. That's an action.

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## Ryan

> Parliament isn't sitting today, but we are reliably informed that the Report will be publicly available later on today. We have people standing by to let us know as soon as that happens.


...

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## 6x47

Yep, now we see all the clever recommendations they've come up with. The only one that seems overdue is locking out gang members and affiliates from ownership.

As for individual registration of the actual firearms, where do I begin..?  Obviously the committee didn't bother taking notice of the Canadian failure.

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## Ryan

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-...ed-owning-guns

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## Ryan

It's up now:

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/sc/r...gal-possession

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## Beavis

So they acknowledge that registration is pointless, and they're not gonna do it, but they are gonna record all the serial numbers of your guns, and make everybody go through the permit to procure process to sell a cat guns...what?

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## zimmer

> So they acknowledge that registration is pointless, and they're not gonna do it, but they are gonna record all the serial numbers of your guns, and make everybody go through the permit to procure process to sell a cat guns...what?


Sounds like registration in another guise to me.  :O O:

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## Tommy

What a fucking joke

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## Beavis

The way they want it to be, they may as well just get rid of all firearm categories, and make EVERYBODY meet the vetting and security requirements for E category. This proposal is a total cluster fuck.

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## Danger Mouse

Yeah it conrtradicts itself below are the quotes. The MP's involved, can only be described as stupid. I will be emailing all of them:

We recommend that instead of creating a firearms register, the legislation be amended to
require the Police to record the serial numbers of firearms owned by licence holders.


We recommend to the Government that the law be amended to require the Police
to record the serial numbers of all firearms possessed by licence holders upon renewal of
their licence or inspection of their premises.





We recommend that a permit to procure be required for the sale or transfer of all firearms.
The permit process would give details of firearms transactions to the Police and it would
allow them to slowly build up a database of firearms possessed by individuals.

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## Ryan

_"...as a result of this discovery and a general increase in firearm seizures by the Police"._  

Still yet to see any data provided by police to substantiate the "increase in firearm seizures".

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## stug

Also would make it illegal to sell rifles etc on this site withput Police approval

4 that it create a Police registration process for websites that wish to facilitate the
buying, selling, or trading of firearms, parts of firearms, or ammunition online. It would be
an offence to operate such a website without current registration (page 8).

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## Ryan

https://www.facebook.com/firearmowne...697195769532:0

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## Ryan

Aside from the entire recommendation being a contradicting and virtually unenforceable waste of our tax-paying money - it does absolutely nothing to address the problem of illegal firearm possession. It lists four different sources where illegal firearms are obtained. 

Funnily enough the recommendation focuses exclusively on licensed firearm owners and completely ignores the others. I didn't see any recommendation for increased Customs screening of incoming shipments for example. Criminals don't care about permits to procure or endorsements or security standards. None of this is going to affect them.

The arms officers barely cope with the existing workload - the very document itself says that they are under-resourced and now they are suggesting a Permit to Procure to be required for every firearm purchase and in the same breath saying that registration is unenforceable but yet that's exactly what they are trying to do. They aren't even capable of doing a good bullshitting job!

_We recommend to the Government that the law be amended to make it clear that
the secure storage requirements must be met to the satisfaction of the Police, before a
licence or endorsement can be issued._

It wants clarity on the storage requirements yet, strangely is not clear on what these requirements are? As for the "satisfaction of the Police"... That sets a dangerous precedent in my opinion. Based on their recent track record, police's "satisfaction" can change depending on which way the wind blows. I'm referring to OAL measurement of MSSA as an example, originally it was measured extended - now it's apparently measured collapsed.

So my 6mm thick safe may suddenly become "unsatisfactory" tomorrow and police will require a 10mm safe to be installed. Effectively a possible attempt to price shooters out of the hobby.

It wouldn't surprise me if firearm and ammunition sales went through the roof in light of this select committee recommendation.

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## stug

They mention that they don't think A cat security needs to be as restrictive as pistols, MSSA etc so there is a light precident.

Regulation 28 sets out tighter security requirements for pistols, MSSAs, and restricted
weapons. One option for increasing the security of firearms would be to extend the
security standards for pistols, MSSAs, and restricted weapons to “A” category firearms. We
recommend that the Police undertake further work to determine appropriate security
standards for “A” category firearms. We think that the current standards need to be
increased. However, we do not think that the new standards need to be as restrictive as
those for pistols, MSSAs, and restricted weapons.

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## Beavis

I'm sure arms officers around the country are keen on a huge increase in their workload.

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## zimmer

It's about what I expected i.e. meets the requirements of the hidden agenda, not the stated agenda which has been put in the too hard basket. Hidden agenda being to progressively disarm the populous. That is the legal, law abiding populous. 

I think we all pretty well knew the outcome would be like this.

If only we could all vote with our feet on this single issue.

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## Ryan

> I'm sure arms officers around the country are keen on a huge increase in their workload.



Mad keen bro, I'm still waiting on an import permit for my stock lol.

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## stug

It is also terrible what they listed under Criminal Offending

Criminal offending with firearms

12 that it review the penalties in the Arms Act 1983 (page 18).
13 that the law be amended so that where a dealer has committed an offence under the
Arms Act 1983, the court must treat this as an aggravating factor at sentencing (page 18).
14 that the Police undertake further work to determine appropriate security standards
for “A” category firearms (page 19).
15 that the law be amended to make it clear that the secure storage requirements must
be met to the satisfaction of the Police, before a licence or endorsement can be issued
(page 19).
16 that it extend the power under regulation 29 to allow the Police to enter premises
to inspect the security of “A” category firearms (page 19).
17 that the Arms Act 1983 be amended so that failure to comply with the storage
regulations must result in revocation of a firearms licence (page 19).

How is point 14, 15 or 16 criminal?

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## zimmer

> I'm sure arms officers around the country are keen on a huge increase in their workload.


Unfortunately, when you are overloaded already any additional load has no effect. You just adopt an attitude of "I can only do so much in an 8 hour day". Anything not done that day just gets pushed fwd.

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## Sasquatch

It's beyond obvious they don't care about dealing with criminals and the misuse of firearms the logical way mentioned above ^^^ This only effects the law-abiding, plain & simple.

As for this "registration is un-enforceable but we'll do it anyway scheme" what on earth will that lead to I wonder??

Kiss my ass select committee, you're an embarrassment to us all.

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## Danger Mouse

> It's beyond obvious they don't care about dealing with criminals and the misuse of firearms the logical way mentioned above ^^^ This only effects the law-abiding, plain & simple.
> 
> As for this "registration is un-enforceable but we'll do it anyway scheme" what on earth will that lead to I wonder??
> 
> Kiss my ass select committee, you're an embarrassment to us all.




Easy, the sale of pvc pipe and end caps will jump, and thousands of firearms wont be registered.

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## dogmatix

I'm going to be visiting/emailing and calling my local MP for Hunua ad nuseum 'Tea Party' style to make my point. 
Lots of shooting clubs in that electorate.

If he doesn't live up to expectations, I'll be campaigning for the party that does.

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## stug

Problem is that all the parties will agree with the proposals because they will be seen by the general public as being tough on crime.

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## Beavis

> Problem is that all the parties will agree with the proposals because they will be seen by the general public as being tough on crime.


If only their was one that put New Zealand First? Imagine that.

This whole thing would have been brewing in the background for a while. They were just waiting for the right event to happen to push it.

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## Maca49

Go Paula the hunter!!

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## Danger Mouse

> Go Paula the hunter!!


Senidng to all of the comittee bar nz first, and also sending to paula bennett:

This is a response to the select committees final report on this subject, from a firearms license holder, a military officer and a voter. 

I am frustrated and alarmed at the findings of this committee. The findings will have minimal impact on criminal possession of firearms, while introducing expensive time consuming, and practically unenforceable regulations on law abiding firearms license holders.

My first concern is that the recommendations in this report focus on increasing regulations and restrictions on license holders. These people have been vetted by the NZ police and deemed fit and proper. We abide by the law. How does increasing draconian restrictions on the already law abiding reduce illegal possession of firearms? The answer is of course, it doesn’t. Criminals will just flout more regulation and continue their behaviour. If changes are to be made, the end state must be an impact on illegal possession, not on the law abiding. There is no recommendation for increased customs screening of incoming shipments for example, to reduce firearms smuggled into New Zealand. Why not? Was this even considered? This would reduce the number of illegal firearms entering the country, without placing ineffective restrictions on the law abiding. Criminals don’t care about permits to procure, or endorsements, or security standards. None of these recommended changes is going to affect them. 

Currently arms officers barely cope with the existing workload such as license renewal inspections and processing of permits to procure - the very document itself says that they are under resourced and now the committee is suggesting a Permit to Procure to be required for every firearm purchase and in the same breath saying that registration is unenforceable but yet that's exactly what they are trying to do. They aren't even capable of doing a good bullshitting job!

We recommend to the Government that the law be amended to make it clear that
the secure storage requirements must be met to the satisfaction of the Police, before a
licence or endorsement can be issued.

The report wants clarity on the storage requirements yet, strangely is not clear on what these requirements are? As for the "satisfaction of the Police"... That sets a dangerous precedent in my opinion. This ‘up to police interpretation’ policy has already been challenged by NZ license holders when Richard Lincoln took the NZ police to court and won his case. Several more instances of legal action are now pending as a result of police changing their ‘interpretation’ of the law. I'm referring to overall length measurement of MSSA as an example, originally it was measured extended - now it's apparently measured collapsed. If the storage requirements are left to police discretion my 6mm thick safe may suddenly become "unsatisfactory" tomorrow and police will require a 10mm safe to be installed. Which will be possibly regarded by many as an attempt to price shooters out of the hobby.

The recommendations do nothing to resolve the NZ polices embarrassing burglary of firearms resolution rate. (circa 9%). Surely even aiming to increase this, would have a greater result on reducing illegally held firearms, and not cause unwarranted restrictions on the law abiding? Was this raised during the select committee?

The proposals would Empower NZ police to decide what firearms they want restricted, with no justification (already happening and pending legal action as a result), to enter with no warrant, and inspect our bolt action firearms. Why is it deemed acceptable to effectively carry out warrantless searches on the deemed fit and proper, which by definition are held to a higher level of accountability that the general public, when this is not acceptable behaviour on criminals?

Police cannot cope with the current workload, eg license renewals, permits to procure and registration of ‘e’ and ‘b’ classification firearms in NZ, so how are they going to cope with the massive workload increase, and the associated costs?

Most embarrassingly, the report contradicts itself in regards to registration of firearms. Initially the report states

We recommend that instead of creating a firearms register, the legislation be amended to
require the Police to record the serial numbers of firearms owned by licence holders.

Clearly arguing against a register, which given the Canadian experience seems most sensible! The Canadians spent billions, far exceeding their budget on their registry, achieving a compliance rate far lower than what was required, and Canadian officials admitted that it had no net benefit! Worse, was the multiple security breaches of the database, resulting in a shopping list of firearms and their location for persons unknown. To date the Canadian registry has not been credited with solving ANY crime. It is no wonder that after several years, no benefit, and billions of dollars, that the Canadians repealed their registry. Simply, criminals will not register their illegal firearms before using them to commit crime. Maddingly the report later contradicts itself, stating

We recommend to the Government that the law be amended to require the Police
to record the serial numbers of all firearms possessed by licence holders upon renewal of
their licence or inspection of their premises.

This ‘database’ IS a registry. It is functionally identical, with the title being the only difference. So the committee doesn’t want a registry, but it does! It is later confirmed that although a registry is not recommended, it is exactly what is recommended, as per the following statement.

We recommend that a permit to procure be required for the sale or transfer of all firearms.
The permit process would give details of firearms transactions to the Police and it would
allow them to slowly build up a database of firearms possessed by individuals

The Canadians repealed their registry due to the time and expense involved, while providing no benefit to reducing illegally held firearms. Why is this being recommended? How is this meant to reduce firearms crime in New Zealand? I believe that the compliance rate will be very poor, due to what the firearms community has observed in Australia and the UK, where registration databases were then used to confiscate firearms at a later date after more law changes. I would sincerely appreciate any answers to the questions I have raised. 

Frustratingly, most of the changes appear to have an end state of making life difficult for the law abiding with now impact on criminals. I see this as an attack on me, a law abiding firearms license holder. As a result I will not vote for any party involved in this committee. NZ first was the only party to raise similar concerns during the process, and I will be encouraging all of the 250,000 licensed firearms holders to vote for NZ first in order to preserve our shooting heritage.

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## outdoorlad

I think we all need to take a bit of spare time & write to MP's outlining our concerns.

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## AzumitH

Time to get salty on them emails I think.  

May actually put together a few bulletpoints and arrange a short get together with my local MP.  Will put on my best smiley face  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Steve123

So what happens when a rifle that has its serial number stored in a "database" gets stolen?  Will the database magically track it down or will the licenced, fit and propper registered owner be prosecuted for insufficient storage?
WANKERS!! 

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

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## veitnamcam

> It's about what I expected i.e. meets the requirements of the hidden agenda, not the stated agenda which has been put in the too hard basket. Hidden agenda being to progressively disarm the populous. That is the legal, law abiding populous. 
> 
> I think we all pretty well knew the outcome would be like this.
> 
> If only we could all vote with our feet on this single issue.


Have not voted for either of the 2 major controlling party's ever...... short of blowing up parliament or somehow mind controlling "Sir Peter Talley"(What a fucking JOKE that is!) I dont know how we could effect the status quo other than halting immigration.....totally.

We are overfull already....and there is a lot that should go back whence they came , A bit redneck perhaps but I make no apology at all for that.

If every firearm owner voted for a keep your guns party maybe we would have a chance....but most would be more concerned with weather the govt will charge them tax on capital gains on the 15 houses they own :Omg:  than if they keep their guns they never use./

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## jackson21

They don't recommend registration because they don't think it will achieve anything, in the next sentence they recommend recording all serial numbers....permit to procure for ALL firearms, how is that not exactly what they recommended would not achieve anything?

Sounds like Police are going to have their wishes and be spending all day doing admin  recording and permitting firearms transactions and ammo sales. Be much easier for crims than is now. Sit outside Police station and watch.

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## Moutere

If this wider permit to procure recommendation came to pass, there are enough licenced firearm owners in this country to drown them in their own paperwork.
All a 230000+ strong user group would have to do is transfer possession of a single firearm each between a mate, each and every week and just break the system.

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## veitnamcam

> If this wider permit to procure recommendation came to pass, there are enough licenced firearm owners in this country to drown them in their own paperwork.
> All a 230000+ strong user group would have to do is transfer possession of a single firearm each between a mate, each and every week and just break the system.


All that would happen there is you would be prosecuted for transfering a firearm without a permit to procure and you would be in the shite and no longer a fit and proper user but a "criminal"

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## Moutere

> All that would happen there is you would be prosecuted for transfering a firearm without a permit to procure and you would be in the shite and no longer a fit and proper user but a "criminal"


No, transfer with a permit.
Snow the system under with their own pointless requirement.

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## veitnamcam

> No, transfer with a permit.
> Snow the system under with their own pointless requirement.


With a snowed under system you have no sale....sell anyway="criminal"

If you voted labour or national in the last 20 years you led us here.

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## MeOverU

Just wondering if this will mean there will be any changes on types of weapons we can by with each type of endorsement?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

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## Moutere

> With a snowed under system you have no sale....sell anyway="criminal"


I'm not suggesting selling anything illegally..... Ah forget it!

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## veitnamcam

> I'm not suggesting selling anything illegally..... Ah forget it!


Yes I know...but what of those who ARE trying to sell something?....fu8ck em for the greater good?...foreclose that mortgage ? and for what? sorry we are to slow to process sales so we must make it more difficult to sell,that would be the likely outcome.

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## Beaker

Can anyone give a list of names in the bee hive that are pro and neg firearms?

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## Beavis

> I'm not suggesting selling anything illegally..... Ah forget it!


No I get what you mean. 

Another consideration. Where does it leave people with regard to borrowing firearms? For pistols, MSSA's etc, you need a P2P to take possesion of a gun, then the old owner needs a P2P to take it back. What happens if a Dad lends his son a rifle, son gets stopped by a cop that wants to check the ownership of the gun, and finds it doesn't belong to him? Under the current system for MSSA's, both parties would find themselves in deep shit.

Also if I have read the recommendations correctly, police would now have the same search powers for A cat owners, that they do for restricted weapons. They can enter your premise and demand an inspection and audit of your firearms and security without a search warrant. Guys like me are used to that (and lol if they ever have the staff and time to do it), but how would it sit with the rest of the gun owning population knowing you literally have less rights than a real criminal?

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## timattalon

in the third paragraph of the introduction they wrote "_Thus, our recommendations aim to reduce the flow of firearms to criminals, gangs, and those who do not have a licence, without unfairly impinging on law-abiding firearms users_."

yet by their own comments and recommendations,  they seem to have disregarded the criminal element and have tried to place the burden right back on law abiding "fit and proper" persons.
*
    Recommendation to the Government that the permit to procure process be extended to cover the sale or transfer of all firearms.* Permit to procure for ALL firearms- It is already evident by the delays in processing that the Police cannot cope with the volume of work they have now, and this would likely increase the required resources many times over, and these resources would be better suited to targeting ACTUAL crimes. Also with a database and increased access to this by large numbers of people means it will essentially be a list of where you can steal what you are looking for....Criminal shopping list? And being electronic, the list of those who will have access will be huge. These registration lists are inaccurate, and become unwieldy and inaccurate. By their own admission, the paper based system was 66% inaccurate and from my professional experience, adding computers to this does NOT make it any more prone to accuracy. In fact, it will make it easier for larger numbers of people to access(and potentially alter) the information including non police personnel (Trade me is even specifically mentioned even though it is a corporate and insecure site.) And what does it gain? Registration and permits to procure will effectively become a bureaucratic entanglement where the only people who want to use it will be the very people who should NOT have access to that information.
* Recommendation to the Government that the Police investigate the creation of a category of restricted semi-automatic firearm (rifle and shotgun) to replace the MSSA firearm endorsement category.* There are so many semi auto 22 rifles alone (Think Ruger 10/22) that are not MSSA. To make these MSSA will not make any difference to the firearms going to criminals. In fact this will likely INCREASE the number of firearms being dumped into criminals hands as the cost of complying with the law (getting a license endorsement and / increased security costs) will far exceed the value of the rifle. An endorsement costs $200 and the 6mm safe is $500 to $1000 or more, where the rifles such as the Ruger 10/22 etc are $400 to $500 brand new and often half that for second hand. The cheapest option for owners will be to "give" them to crims" simply so they do not end up holding onto them. Add this to the many many semi autos out there (one of the cheapest rifles sold in NZ new is a semi auto) and this whole idea can be seen for the impractical and stupid idea that it really is. A better suggestion would be reduce the entire category back to A category and apply the endorsement for permission to own the large capacity magazines. Make the restrictions "specific and measurable" and not open to interpretation. How does the shape of a handle make a firearm more or less dangerous? Does the colour of a car do the same? If a car has a rear spoiler, does that mean it can go faster? The whole MSSA debacle and the definition problems have occurred because of an emotive and reactionary approach rather than a common sense and realistic approach. Clearly the government is able to learn from its errors. We have seen this in the way we now have LAMS motorcycles as an improvement on the 250cc restriction we used to have for learner riders. Common sense and someone who understood the dynamics of the problem was able to address this and made it safer.



* Recommendation to the Government that the Arms Act 1983 be amended to clearly state that a gang member or prospect must not be considered a fit and proper person to possess firearms and therefore must not hold a firearms licence.*Finally a bit of common sense.
* Recommendation to the Government that the law be amended to require the Police to record the serial numbers of all firearms possessed by licence holders upon renewal of their licence or inspection of their premises.* If this registration is such a good idea, why did Canada abandon it for being too expensive and not providing any actual practical use?

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## veitnamcam

> Can anyone give a list of names in the bee hive that are pro and neg firearms?


Not on this forum unfortunately.

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## veitnamcam

> in the third paragraph of the introduction they wrote "_Thus, our recommendations aim to reduce the flow of firearms to criminals, gangs, and those who do not have a licence, without unfairly impinging on law-abiding firearms users_."
> 
> yet by their own comments and recommendations,  they seem to have disregarded the criminal element and have tried to place the burden right back on law abiding "fit and proper" persons.
> *
>     Recommendation to the Government that the permit to procure process be extended to cover the sale or transfer of all firearms.* Permit to procure for ALL firearms- It is already evident by the delays in processing that the Police cannot cope with the volume of work they have now, and this would likely increase the required resources many times over, and these resources would be better suited to targeting ACTUAL crimes. Also with a database and increased access to this by large numbers of people means it will essentially be a list of where you can steal what you are looking for....Criminal shopping list? And being electronic, the list of those who will have access will be huge. These registration lists are inaccurate, and become unwieldy and inaccurate. By their own admission, the paper based system was 66% inaccurate and from my professional experience, adding computers to this does NOT make it any more prone to accuracy. In fact, it will make it easier for larger numbers of people to access(and potentially alter) the information including non police personnel (Trade me is even specifically mentioned even though it is a corporate and insecure site.) And what does it gain? Registration and permits to procure will effectively become a bureaucratic entanglement where the only people who want to use it will be the very people who should NOT have access to that information.
> * Recommendation to the Government that the Police investigate the creation of a category of restricted semi-automatic firearm (rifle and shotgun) to replace the MSSA firearm endorsement category.* There are so many semi auto 22 rifles alone (Think Ruger 10/22) that are not MSSA. To make these MSSA will not make any difference to the firearms going to criminals. In fact this will likely INCREASE the number of firearms being dumped into criminals hands as the cost of complying with the law (getting a license endorsement and / increased security costs) will far exceed the value of the rifle. An endorsement costs $200 and the 6mm safe is $500 to $1000 or more, where the rifles such as the Ruger 10/22 etc are $400 to $500 brand new and often half that for second hand. The cheapest option for owners will be to "give" them to crims" simply so they do not end up holding onto them. Add this to the many many semi autos out there (one of the cheapest rifles sold in NZ new is a semi auto) and this whole idea can be seen for the impractical and stupid idea that it really is. A better suggestion would be reduce the entire category back to A category and apply the endorsement for permission to own the large capacity magazines. Make the restrictions "specific and measurable" and not open to interpretation. How does the shape of a handle make a firearm more or less dangerous? Does the colour of a car do the same? If a car has a rear spoiler, does that mean it can go faster? The whole MSSA debacle and the definition problems have occurred because of an emotive and reactionary approach rather than a common sense and realistic approach. Clearly the government is able to learn from its errors. We have seen this in the way we now have LAMS motorcycles as an improvement on the 250cc restriction we used to have for learner riders. Common sense and someone who understood the dynamics of the problem was able to address this and made it safer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said but saying it on here will not make a lick of difference, we as a collective needed to vote the anti guns out, we had a clear choice the last two elections but struggeled to gain one seat.

apathy or more interest in your investments?

----------


## Moutere

What I found most disappointing was that there were only 400odd submissions made to the committee in the first place.
A real missed opportunity.

----------


## systolic

> With a snowed under system you have no sale....sell anyway="criminal"
> 
> If you voted labour or national in the last 20 years you led us here.


There's more important things to consider for New Zealand, when voting in an election, than permits to procure for what are essentially toys.

Like health, education, housing, employment etc.

----------


## jackson21

> Just wondering if this will mean there will be any changes on types of weapons we can by with each type of endorsement?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


Well yes as they have recommended the Police go away and come up with a new classification for ALL semi auto firearms and also Police to come up with what they think security requirements should be.

Basically whatever Police made in their secret submission.

As above, if the Police get what they want I think they just want to make it really hard to purchase and import firearms by making process difficult is I think their aim to restrict as they have not been able to qualify new laws on any other reasonable grounds.

On another note to understand police on this new Police Union boss doesn't believe we should be allowed to legally shoot any pistols or mssa, or A cat semis.

Despite I'm sure at some stage of being a cop he done some training at one of NZ's pistol or NZDA ranges that also cater to Police.

----------


## Pointer

I would support changes that allowed stricter penalties for people who breach the arms code or people that use guns in a crime, hopefully it becomes a deterrent. These recommended changes only penalize the law abiding. How do the police actually plan to enforce this? I waited two years for a safe inspection after moving house, and that only came after I moved again!

----------


## jackson21

> What I found most disappointing was that there were only 400odd submissions made to the committee in the first place.
> A real missed opportunity.


Well that is not entirely true as not necessarily a numbers game and there was some pretty good submissions made amongst some retard ones on the other side.

Not to mention select committee had a fair amount of time to accurately research facts on stated aim of enquiry and what they basically came back with is what everyone expected was what Police were telling them needs to happen.

I now believe NZ police top brass to be of a very low intellect level. They could have surely come up with some better ideas than they have.

I mean why have I ever been a little nervous being grilled by vetting officers over the years questioning anything and everything like exactly how many beers I drank when fit and proper person doesn't already cover gang members?

----------


## Moutere

> Well that is not entirely true as not necessarily a numbers game and there was some pretty good submissions made amongst some retard ones on the other side.
> 
> Not to mention select committee had a fair amount of time to accurately research facts on stated aim of enquiry and what they basically came back with is what everyone expected was what Police were telling them needs to happen.


A submission rate of less than 0.174% of affected stake holders basically said we don't really care what happens, you MPs work it out.

----------


## systolic

> A submission rate of less than 0.174% of affected stake holders basically said we don't really care what happens, you MPs work it out.


Isn't that what we elect MPs for? 

It's not like people weren't given an opportunity to make submissions. I don't make submissions on all sorts of thinks that I don't care about, even if they may affect me in some way.

Should people _have_ to make submissions?

----------


## Sasquatch

> There's more important things to consider for New Zealand, when voting in an election


 Yes, and fortunately for us shooters NZF is pretty good all round but we need at least _one_ party that has our backs or else we can kiss this sport good-bye.





> Than permits to procure for what are essentially toys.

----------


## 7x64

> A submission rate of less than 0.174% of affected stake holders basically said we don't really care what happens, you MPs work it out.


You do have to keep in mind that the vast majority of those licence holders won't have the foggiest idea any of this is going on. Hard to respond to something you don't know is happening.

----------


## Krameranzac

COLFO

Colfo breakdown of the report.

----------


## mkm

Well at least the army is doing their bit to inspire the next generation in to owning MSSA weapons! 

Guns big part of army leadership roadshow at primary schools | Stuff.co.nz

----------


## shooternz

I am going to write to the minster of Police the PM and my MP I know it probably won't have any affect other than add to the pile of emails they get each day as I have done it before all I got was a reply from their flunkies
saying thank you,
Any one who thinks there are more important issues like eduction, healthcare, housing in this election are fooling themselves if the police get away with it this time we may not have any firearms at the next election
so get your heads out of the sand and fight back or we are heading for a police state,
Don't vote for National Labour or the Greens all of them want your guns at present only NZ first has our backs I hope that the NZ Outdoors party can get organised in time would be good to have another choice for those
that don't like Winston, MMP is all about tactical voting unfortunately most NZ'ers can't seem to figure it out otherwise we would not be in the position we are now,  heading the way of the super nanny state England

----------


## Ryan

> There's more important things to consider for New Zealand, when voting in an election, than permits to procure for what are essentially toys.
> 
> Like health, education, housing, employment etc.


Don't see any proposed legislation to restrict any of the above though.

----------


## Ryan

> What I found most disappointing was that there were only 400odd submissions made to the committee in the first place.
> A real missed opportunity.


I made my submission. I suspect most people didn't because they know doing so doesn't change anything except provide a little bit of feel-good factor.

----------


## mikee

> Well at least the army is doing their bit to inspire the next generation in to owning MSSA weapons! 
> 
> Guns big part of army leadership roadshow at primary schools | Stuff.co.nz


Interestinglyly there seems to be no "direct supervision" here and given that these are most likely the real deal.......................... perhaps rules don't apply to the army as well as the police as they are not mere mortals like us

----------


## gadgetman

And the next big problem with the only useful bit they came up with will be the definition of 'gang member' without impinging on the rights of others. 

Everything else is a complete contradiction of the aims stated at the beginning.

----------


## gadgetman

> A submission rate of less than 0.174% of affected stake holders basically said we don't really care what happens, you MPs work it out.


A good number of those are carefully considered submissions from groups that represent large numbers of stake holders.

----------


## Moutere

That's true Gadget.

----------


## systolic

> Interestinglyly there seems to be no "direct supervision" here and given that these are most likely the real deal.......................... perhaps rules don't apply to the army as well as the police as they are not mere mortals like us


Of course the rules don't apply to the army. Why would they? 

Read the Arms Act.

----------


## systolic

> A good number of those are carefully considered submissions from groups that represent large numbers of stake holders.


Quite true.

I found this on the police association website: The New Zealand Police Association is a voluntary service organisation representing *8,600 constabulary police members* across all ranks of the NZ Police. The Association also represents over *2,300 Police employees.

*

----------


## timattalon

> And the next big problem with the only useful bit they came up with will be the definition of 'gang member' without impinging on the rights of others. 
> 
> Everything else is a complete contradiction of the aims stated at the beginning.


Section 5 part 2 of the Prohibition of Gang Insignia in Government Premises Act 2013 No 56, Public Act &ndash; New Zealand Legislation states

"_The Minister of Police may not make a recommendation under subsection (1) unless he or she is satisfied on reasonable grounds that the organisation, association, or group proposed to be identified has the following characteristics:

    (a) a common name or common identifying signs, symbols, or representations; and

    (b) its members, associates, or supporters individually or collectively promote, encourage, or engage in criminal activity_."

And this is referenced for definition of GANG in the report.  My problem is that it does not require proof of criminal activity only "reasonable grounds". And we know what "reasonable grounds"  means when they decide to assess whether a stock is E or A cat....

----------


## Krameranzac

Paula Bennett has this topic on her Facebook page and is calling for feedback.

----------


## 223nut

> Paula Bennett has this topic on her Facebook page and is calling for feedback.


Face plant.... N politicians using that and the us president twitter.... What's the world coming to.....

----------


## gonetropo

FB, a way to hide from the truth.
come on out and face a 1/4 of a million pissed off people paula

----------


## 300CALMAN

> There's more important things to consider for New Zealand, when voting in an election, than permits to procure for what are essentially toys.
> 
> Like health, education, housing, employment etc.


Well I think public ownership of firearms is a bit more than something about "what are essentially toys" and for a lot of us are pest control tools ect. It about the whole philosophy of citizens having rights/responsibilities and being treated as adults.

You are quite welcome to give up your "toys" (as you call them) to the police/government first (if you really have any). I am sure many others on the forum wont mind if you do.

----------


## Sideshow

Sorry I'm late to the party, but what if you and your wife and kids shoot....so now do you have to have on each licence all the firearms in your safe. This is a cluster Fcuk!!
So your picking up a gun for your mate to meet later for duck shooting, you have to leave and he brings it back to your home so you can lock it away.....how are they going to enforce this

----------


## 300CALMAN

> Sorry I'm late to the party, but what if you and your wife and kids shoot....so now do you have to have on each licence all the firearms in your safe. This is a cluster Fcuk!!
> So your picking up a gun for your mate to meet later for duck shooting, you have to leave and he brings it back to your home so you can lock it away.....how are they going to enforce this


simple.. make you a criminal

----------


## stug

Here is a copy of a letter I will send to my local MP and other politicians. Any advice on what to add, delete. Feel free to use it yourself. The more people that ask questions the better

I am writing to you to find out your parties position on the recent Law and Order committees findings on the illegal possession of firearms.
I am trying to work out which party to vote for later this year and your responses will help me with my decision.
I am a licensed firearms owner and passionate hunter and shooter. I have read through the committees recommendations and have some concerns.
I welcome recommendation 10 to make it difficult for gang members and associates to have a firearms licence, however most of the other recommendations seem to have a large effect on law abiding firearms owners and will have a minimal effect on  criminals.
Countries such as Canada have realised that a registry of licensed firearms is costly and impractical. The Law and Order committee also noted this, so why did they propose recommendation 11 to record serial numbers of firearms when doing security checks, and how will this reduce the illegal use of firearms? What will happen with the records of serial numbers? How secure will the information be and who will have access to the information. I have concerns that the information will just end up being a shopping list for criminals. Recent experience with Novopay and the Ministry of Social development having privacy concerns with their kiosks and the recent privacy breach with the providers of social services do not fill me with confidence.
Recommendation 5, the requirement to have all firearms sales require a permit to procure will create unnecessary expense and not prevent illegal sales. Criminals will not go to the police to get a permit when they buy or sell firearms. I live in the country and I have had to visit the local Police station four times before I was able to complete a mail order sale and purchase form.
The Police are already understaffed and under-resourced, their burglary resolution rate is evidence of this, so how is putting an layer of administration of firearms sales and security checks going to help this?
I am also concerned with the Law and Orders committees recommendation 14 to get the Police to review the A category security standards. The Police have recently changed their rules around B,C and E category security requirements. This has caused major confusion around the country about what is a complaint safe and what isn't. Different Police vettors are applying their own rules and causing confusion and extra expense to legitimate firearms owners.
At the moment buyers of ammunition need to have a firearms licence to purchase ammunition,  and   recommendation 1 proposes you must have a firearms licence to possess ammunition, so how is recommendation 3 going to prevent the illegal use of ammunition? Ammunition has no serial number or major identifying features. It is just going to add an extra layer of bureaucracy and expense to legitimate business owners and licensed firearms owners. 
I am also appalled that recommendations 14, 15 and 16 were put under the heading Criminal offending with firearms. How is the changing of security requirements or giving the police power to inspect A category security a criminal offence?  I am a licensed firearms owner with A category security, how does the Police coming to inspect my security make me a criminal?  

In summary; how will recommendation 11 prevent the illegal use of firearms? How will recommendation 5 prevent the illegal sale of firearms? How will recommendation 3 prevent the illegal use of ammunition? How will recommendation 14 not result in extra expense to legitimate firearms owners and end up being a de-facto way of preventing firearms ownership by setting unreasonable requirements for security?

I look forward to your responses to my questions and hope they will help me decide who to vote for in the upcoming election.

Yours sincerely,

----------


## Sideshow

Nice one Stug I suggest that all print this letter off sign it and send it!!!!

----------


## stug

Need to add this question towards the end

If your party is able to form a government after the election which parts of the Law and Order committees Inquiry into issues relating to the illegal possession of firearms in New Zealand will you pass in to legislation and which parts will you reject?

----------


## Sylvester

Looks good to me @stug these are all important questions that need to be answered. I sent a similarly themed email to Paula Bennett thie evening. Nice to see that alot of us are on the same wavelength regarding this.

----------


## norsk

> Sorry I'm late to the party, but what if you and your wife and kids shoot....so now do you have to have on each licence all the firearms in your safe. This is a cluster Fcuk!!
> So your picking up a gun for your mate to meet later for duck shooting, you have to leave and he brings it back to your home so you can lock it away.....how are they going to enforce this


Enforce through punnishment,both in the form of prosecution if you are caught and in the fee for applying for each and every gun you want.
Well...only if they think that you need it.

"You have a 243,why do you need a 6.5?"

This is the system most of Europe deals with,I cannot even take my Girlfreinds Rifle to the Gunsmith,even though we own identical models in the same caliber.Forget hunting with it too.

The application fee will in the begining rather small,to encourage people to comply.Then it will creep ever slowly up to discourage people from owning large numbers of firearms.Which at the mid point the Police will limit new applicants to "X" number of Long arms in "Y" calibers only.Untill most people can only own a handful of firearms,that require procurement fees of hundreds of Dollars,anual security inspections,compulsory club membership,mental health asessment etc.

Don't think that will happen?

In the 1980's in the UK you could own a Brengun and shoot it at the Range.Now they are licencing Air Rifles in Scotland.

----------


## Ernie

https://www.facebook.com/paulabennet...91649702567417

Get her Told !

----------


## mikee

> https://www.facebook.com/paulabennet...91649702567417
> 
> Get her Told !


Yes Yes and "polite but firm" should be the tone keep the bad words out of you comments no matter how annoyed you may be, we need to portray a united front that we "regular everyday people"  are not the "nutters" the police would have the general public believe we are !!

----------


## timattalon

> Sorry I'm late to the party, but what if you and your wife and kids shoot....so now do you have to have on each licence all the firearms in your safe. This is a cluster Fcuk!!
> [I_]So your picking up a gun for your mate to meet later for duck shooting, you have to leave and he brings it back to your home so you can lock it away.....how are they going to enforce this_[/I]


My question would be more along the lines of "Why in hell would they even want to put laws in the way of firearm safety?" Some of these permit to procure issues could have some very serious implications. 

Teaching young / new shooters firearm safety and introducing them to firearms. How will supervision be addressed?

----------


## 223nut

> My question would be more along the lines of "Why in hell would they even want to put laws in the way of firearm safety?" Some of these permit to procure issues could have some very serious implications. 
> 
> Teaching young / new shooters firearm safety and introducing them to firearms. How will supervision be addressed?


This was one of my first thoughts.... Only by 'qualified' instructors probably..

----------


## jackson21

> A submission rate of less than 0.174% of affected stake holders basically said we don't really care what happens, you MPs work it out.


Not entirely as some carefully worded fact based submissions were made from a number of organisations I'm a member of spelt it out quite clearly.

Numerous individual rants would not of changed a thing as they have followed whatever the Police "secret" submissions were.
This is neither Democratic to the process or followed the topic of enquiry and clearly shows attitude of senior Police to firearms licence holders and how they think.

Let's face it the findings are a complete and utter joke, it will now be played out in the elections. Vote NZ First seem to be only ones who clearly see what a crock this has been.
If they can get some reasonable representation at next election won't be a problem.

----------


## norsk

> My question would be more along the lines of "Why in hell would they even want to put laws in the way of firearm safety?" Some of these permit to procure issues could have some very serious implications. 
> 
> Teaching young / new shooters firearm safety and introducing them to firearms. How will supervision be addressed?


Through a minimum age of firearms useage.One can have a shotgun certificate in the UK at 14 years of age.At a fee of course.
14 is also the minimum age of leagle accompanyment on a big game hunt in Norway,un armed that is.18 is the age of leagle gun ownership here,which as you guessed comes after a course and a safe and fees for each indevidual firearm.Oh and yes an annual fee to the government in case you might want to think about hunting.

Politicians rarely come up with original ideas,modification of exisitng legislation is the norm,makes them look modern and compliant.

----------


## Beavis

The more I read it, the more it seems clear that they are trying to weasel in Australian gun laws.

----------


## Krameranzac

Remember also that as a firearm owner and outdoors person, you also fall under the portfolio of the Minister of Sport and Recreation. Shooting is a sport and a recreation. Once you have finished writing to the Minister of Police about this report,you may like to write to the Minister of Sport and Recreation (Jonathan Coleman) and ask what he intends to do to safeguard your sport and recreation from the suggestions in the report.

----------


## Krameranzac

Paula Bennetts Facebook Reply:  Update [please like so this appears near the top]: thank you all for your constructive comments and feedback, which we're compiling and is running to 420 comments over 49 pages (32,800 words).

With that in mind, you can continue to leave feedback here, or alternatively email me directly at p.bennett@ministers.govt.nz with something like "illegal firearms" in the subject line.

To clarify the process from here, the Government will now consider Parliament's report and must provide a written response by 6 July.

Thanks again for taking the time to state your position - we hear you, we are listening, and we want to work with you to ensure we get good outcomes from this.

----------


## timattalon

> Paula Bennetts Facebook Reply:  Update [please like so this appears near the top]: thank you all for your constructive comments and feedback, which we're compiling and is running to 420 comments over 49 pages (32,800 words).
> 
> With that in mind, you can continue to leave feedback here, or alternatively email me directly at p.bennett@ministers.govt.nz with something like "illegal firearms" in the subject line.
> 
> To clarify the process from here, the Government will now consider Parliament's report and must provide a written response by 6 July.
> 
> Thanks again for taking the time to state your position - we hear you, we are listening, and we want to work with you to ensure we get good outcomes from this.


Thats almost a TUI ad....Yeeeah Right!!!

----------


## JWB

> The more I read it, the more it seems clear that they are trying to weasel in Australian gun laws.


This is what you are up against.




> COMMUNIQUÉ
> Law, Crime and Community Safety Council, 27-28 April 2016
> The first meeting of the Law, Crime and Community Safety Council for 2016 was held over 27 28 April 2016 in Queenstown, New Zealand. Ministers from New Zealand, the Commonwealth and each state and territory with portfolio responsibility for law and justice, police and emergency management were in attendance, as was a representative of the Australian Local Government Association.  The meeting was chaired by the Hon Nikki Kaye MP, New Zealand Minister of Civil Defence the (Emergency Management Session), the Hon Judith Collins MP, New Zealand Minister (Law Enforcement session), the Hon Amy Adams MP, New Zealand Minister of Justice (Family Violence and Community Safety session) and the Commonwealth Minister for Justice and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Counter-Terrorism, the Hon Michael Keenan MP (Law Reform). 
> On 28 April 2016, the Hon Rene Hidding MP, Minister for Police and Emergency Management for Tasmania, asked Ministers to pause for a minute of silence to commemorate the passage of 20 years since the events of the Port Arthur tragedy – to reflect upon the ongoing suffering of those mourning the loss of the 35 people who died and the ongoing distress of many who survived appalling physical and mental trauma.  Ministers noted that the tragedy shaped the Australian community’s notions of trauma, loss and suffering and how these events resulted in an extended community recovery program which became the benchmark for similar international events in following years.  Ministers reflected on the decisive actions of all Australian jurisdictions in developing and achieving consensus on the historic National Firearms Agreement, which is the envy of many countries around the world and agreed to again restate all jurisdictions’ commitment to maintaining a national consensus on firearms as embodied in the National Firearms Agreement.
> [Session 2: Law enforcement
> National Firearms Agreement and other firearms measures
> Ministers noted a number of measures to deal with illegal firearms and the ongoing work of senior officials to update the National Firearms Agreement.


I suggest you download your own copy of the National firearms agreement to see what you government ministers and police policy makers have bought into. Note it is the Australasian police ministers council. Not the Australian police ministers council.




> AUSTRALASIAN POLICE MINISTERS’ COUNCIL
> SPECIAL FIREARMS MEETING
> CANBERRA
> 10 MAY 1996
> RESOLUTIONS
> 2
> 1. Bans on Specific Types of Firearms
> RESOLUTION
> Council resolved:
> ...


Police and Government have complete contempt for your views. What you are seeing is merely the Govt's nodding dog technique. Your future is already decided.

----------


## Ryan

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...jQ?usp=sharing

Some numbers finally. It's almost comical how flimsy this fabricated "problem" is.






Pistols and MSSA make up 4.19% and 1.62% respectively of firearms seized with a 10 year period.





Rising crime?




OK.



Wait... what? LooL.

----------


## kiwijames

> Here is a copy of a letter I will send to my local MP and other politicians. Any advice on what to add, delete. Feel free to use it yourself. The more people that ask questions the better
> 
> I am writing to you to find out your parties position on the recent Law and Order committees findings on the illegal possession of firearms.
> I am trying to work out which party to vote for later this year and your responses will help me with my decision.
> I am a licensed firearms owner and passionate hunter and shooter. I have read through the committees recommendations and have some concerns.
> I welcome recommendation 10 to make it difficult for gang members and associates to have a firearms licence, however most of the other recommendations seem to have a large effect on law abiding firearms owners and will have a minimal effect on  criminals.
> Countries such as Canada have realised that a registry of licensed firearms is costly and impractical. The Law and Order committee also noted this, so why did they propose recommendation 11 to record serial numbers of firearms when doing security checks, and how will this reduce the illegal use of firearms? What will happen with the records of serial numbers? How secure will the information be and who will have access to the information. I have concerns that the information will just end up being a shopping list for criminals. Recent experience with Novopay and the Ministry of Social development having privacy concerns with their kiosks and the recent privacy breach with the providers of social services do not fill me with confidence.
> Recommendation 5, the requirement to have all firearms sales require a permit to procure will create unnecessary expense and not prevent illegal sales. Criminals will not go to the police to get a permit when they buy or sell firearms. I live in the country and I have had to visit the local Police station four times before I was able to complete a mail order sale and purchase form.
> The Police are already understaffed and under-resourced, their burglary resolution rate is evidence of this, so how is putting an layer of administration of firearms sales and security checks going to help this?
> ...


Please excuse the plagurism but I have used the bulk of your letter Stu and emailed my local MP, the PM, Bennet and leaders of all other parties just now.

----------


## kiwijames

> https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...jQ?usp=sharing
> 
> Some numbers finally. It's almost comical how flimsy this fabricated "problem" is.
> 
> Attachment 66860
> 
> Attachment 66861
> 
> 
> ...


Oh. References to the NZHS forum. Obviously watching here.

----------


## Beavis

> https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...jQ?usp=sharing
> 
> Some numbers finally. It's almost comical how flimsy this fabricated "problem" is.
> 
> Attachment 66860
> 
> Attachment 66861
> 
> 
> ...


Ok so pistols are recorded via the permit to procure system. If police believe the majority of illegal pistols come from a formerly legal source, then in theory they could track that back to the origin by checking the pistol against a permit to procure. But they say they don't have much joy doing this. So why the fuck do they want to try and do it with the other 1 million + guns in the country?

----------


## gonetropo

> Please excuse the plagurism but I have used the bulk of your letter Stu and emailed my local MP, the PM, Bennet and leaders of all other parties just now.


also point out that shooting pest animals saves valuable nz bush and farmlands and at no cost to the govt

----------


## Steve123

> Ok so pistols are recorded via the permit to procure system. If police believe the majority of illegal pistols come from a formerly legal source, then in theory they could track that back to the origin by checking the pistol against a permit to procure. But they say they don't have much joy doing this. So why the fuck do they want to try and do it with the other 1 million + guns in the country?


When they say "seized firearns" are they including from licenced owners suffering mental health issues?

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

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## 223nut

> When they say "seized firearns" are they including from licenced owners suffering mental health issues?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk


Good call

----------


## Steve123

> Good call


I wish. The whole situation is severely fucked. Why the help should we follow any of Australia's laws. Useless pack of cunts we have representing us. 

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

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## 223nut

> I wish. The whole situation is severely fucked. Why the help should we follow any of Australia's laws. Useless pack of cunts we have representing us. 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk


Was meaning a 'good call' as in do those figures include those that should have their firearms sized. Someone who has had a few hard years (think earthquakes, death in the family, bankruptcy etc) is very different to a gang member getting firearms siezed.

----------


## Steve123

> Was meaning a 'good call' as in do those figures include those that should have their firearms sized. Someone who has had a few hard years (think earthquakes, death in the family, bankruptcy etc) is very different to a gang member getting firearms siezed.


I'm starting to get really concerned about police powers and the onus on having to prove innocence.
Any transaction over $10k, pretty soon all your firearms except your 10/22 & semi auto shotty coz they've been banned. Any of your comunications etc. Didn't out grandad's fight against this very same shit. Didn't we denounce this shit when the commies were doing it?
 What the fuck is going on?

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

----------


## Nibblet

Had no idea any of this was going one until the other day. 

#17 in regards to revoking licences for failure to comply with security standards is an interesting one,  especially when combined with those standards being at the discretion of the police. 

So when it all takes affect and those that have historically got away with a locked cupboard etc and their checks come up for review and having no idea of the new rules, as a lot of people busy living their lives will be, I wonder if they will be revoked on the spot or if they will be given a grace period in which to comply. 

The untrusting side says revoked as its a wick way to disarm a good portion quickly with the responsibility being put on the firearms owner to know all laws at all times in order to comply. 

Also that p2p crap is stupid. Would they rather my house have firearms in it with no one around when I go on holiday for a few weeks or that I leave them with another vetted individual?

----------


## Sideshow

Pretty hard to get an unbiased law when they have minute silence for port Arthur at the start! What's the minster for Tasmania doing here?
Underhanded muck tards! 
That shooter got his guns from ones handed into the police in another part of there country!
They caused there own problem, now they advise us :O O:  :Yuush:

----------


## mikee

> Also that p2p crap is stupid. Would they rather my house have firearms in it with no one around when I go on holiday for a few weeks or that I leave them with another vetted individual?


I think you will find that the Police prefer that we would not have firearms at all to leave at home. Infact they seem to believer we are fit and proper criminals. Or so it would seem from their secret submission

----------


## veitnamcam

@Savage1 and @Steve338 I would like to hear your opinions on this topic.

----------


## stretch

I'd love to see a televised interview/debate between Chris Cahill and someone from our side who would call him out on the bullshit stats the police provided the select committee, that don't even support the police narrative of increasing gun crime/violence.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Tommy

> Its clearly us and them...CUNTS.


Welllll sort of, I'd like to see what joe plod thinks of this, some stats too. Is it just the police assoc? Particular areas? Old copper/new copper breakdown? Hate to tar all the police with this guy Cahill (have yet to decide what this particular animal is.. Liar? Yes, he certainly is, but why? What's the game here?) 




> I'd love to see a televised interview/debate between Chris Cahill and someone from our side who would call him out on the bullshit stats the police provided the select committee, that don't even support the police narrative of increasing gun crime/violence.


Unions never debate. They just shout.

----------


## Sideshow

One of the troubles they have with the system here in the uk is if your firearms ticket expires while your waiting for your new one.....you are now in illegal possession of your own guns :Wtfsmilie:  that's because of there back log :O O:  even worse for gunsmiths and game keepers, sure they can issue you with a temporary permit, this makes you legal again.......BUT you can't use them our buy ammo :Wtfsmilie: .
So they want to bring that in our something worse to NZ idiots!!!!!

Still at least there dealing with the real problem criminals with firearms  :ORLY: .......idiots all a bunch of queer emus with there heads up there own ass.....

Feel for you guys :Sad: 

That's what you need to do make that the really question deal with the guys that are useing firearms in crime! If you make that the issue then you might come out ok, but at present I guess the police won't be back shooting at the gun club any time soon!

----------


## Beavis

This is supposedly part of the Police submission 

https://www.docdroid.net/euq1IzA/pol...f.html#page=11

----------


## Sylvester

> This is supposedly part of the Police submission 
> 
> https://www.docdroid.net/euq1IzA/pol...f.html#page=11


Do you know where this came from?

----------


## stretch

> Do you know where this came from?


It's all up on the official website. True story. The ones with (Private) in the title are/were the "secret" ones, I think.

http://bit.ly/2pk8za9

----------


## Carpe Diem

Ok so total issues for the community caused by firearms are trending downward. Cops by their own definition are seeing cut down rifles as the biggest source of hand guns and compared to population growth the total number of serious issues is downward trending. 

So despite all the rhetoric things are getting better not worse. So hey do we want to change things?..
#Justsayin

I think the current statistics support the status quo not undermine them.

----------


## Beavis

> Do you know where this came from?


Its been shared on face book by the gun groups. No idea how legit or where it came from. Take it for what it's worth.

----------


## stretch

The inquiry asked the question "how are gangs getting hold of guns". The simple answer is that the cops have issued firearms licenced to 29 or so gang members! Yet this is somehow OUR fault!

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Moutere

> This is supposedly part of the Police submission 
> 
> https://www.docdroid.net/euq1IzA/pol...f.html#page=11


Thanks for posting the link Beavis.
The data certainly does not support the committees recommendations.

----------


## zimmer

> So they acknowledge that registration is pointless, and they're not gonna do it, but they are gonna record all the serial numbers of your guns, and make everybody go through the permit to procure process to sell a cat guns...what?


I see on TV1 this morning the Pol Ass Sec said that "firearm registration numbers" (he quickly corrected that to firearm serial numbers) would be collected at inspections to create a "registry" (didn't call it a database). Clearly registration is what they have in mind.

----------


## Danger Mouse

> I see on TV1 this morning the Pol Ass Sec said that "firearm registration numbers" (he quickly corrected that to firearm serial numbers) would be collected at inspections to create a "registry" (didn't call it a database). Clearly registration is what they have in mind.



Will be told by me in no uncertain terms to sod off if its tried.

----------


## outdoorlad

I see in the Police assn submission he has referenced a couple of threads off this forum around E cat stuff, " how to game getting one"  there submission is quite emotive. 

https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...04a485842f216e

----------


## 199p

Send about 10 emails out to different members of parliament last night, Not a lot but everything helps.

----------


## Danger Mouse

> I see in the Police assn submission he has referenced a couple of threads off this forum around E cat stuff, " how to game getting one"  there submission is quite emotive. 
> 
> https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...04a485842f216e


Gaming the system? more lies from the police. that thread is what you need to do to get your license, no gaming in it at all.

----------


## 6x47

After seeing that Police Ass'n turkey on TV this morning, I emailed Breakfast to say he was plain wrong to assert you can currently buy any ammo without a licence. 
No reply as expected

----------


## Danger Mouse

> After seeing that Police Ass'n turkey on TV this morning, I emailed Breakfast to say he was plain wrong to assert you can currently buy any ammo without a licence. 
> No reply as expected




Did he actually say that? ill log a complaint with IPCA if thats the case.

----------


## systolic

> Did he actually say that? ill log a complaint with IPCA if thats the case.


How will that work when he's speaking as the union president, not as a police officer?

If indeed, he said, what someone else said, he said.

----------


## Maca49

Read and weep!!!


They didn't tell us about this. Read Australasian.
COMMUNIQUÉ
Law, Crime and Community Safety Council, 27-28 April 2016
The first meeting of the Law, Crime and Community Safety Council for 2016 was held over 27 28 April 2016 in Queenstown, New Zealand. Ministers from New Zealand, the Commonwealth and each state and territory with portfolio responsibility for law and justice, police and emergency management were in attendance, as was a representative of the Australian Local Government Association. The meeting was chaired by the Hon Nikki Kaye MP, New Zealand Minister of Civil Defence the (Emergency Management Session), the Hon Judith Collins MP, New Zealand Minister (Law Enforcement session), the Hon Amy Adams MP, New Zealand Minister of Justice (Family Violence and Community Safety session) and the Commonwealth Minister for Justice and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Counter-Terrorism, the Hon Michael Keenan MP (Law Reform). 
On 28 April 2016, the Hon Rene Hidding MP, Minister for Police and Emergency Management for Tasmania, asked Ministers to pause for a minute of silence to commemorate the passage of 20 years since the events of the Port Arthur tragedy – to reflect upon the ongoing suffering of those mourning the loss of the 35 people who died and the ongoing distress of many who survived appalling physical and mental trauma. Ministers noted that the tragedy shaped the Australian community’s notions of trauma, loss and suffering and how these events resulted in an extended community recovery program which became the benchmark for similar international events in following years. Ministers reflected on the decisive actions of all Australian jurisdictions in developing and achieving consensus on the historic National Firearms Agreement, which is the envy of many countries around the world and agreed to again restate all jurisdictions’ commitment to maintaining a national consensus on firearms as embodied in the National Firearms Agreement.
[Session 2: Law enforcement
National Firearms Agreement and other firearms measures
Ministers noted a number of measures to deal with illegal firearms and the ongoing work of senior officials to update the National Firearms Agreement.
I suggest you download your own copy of the National firearms agreement to see what you government ministers and police policy makers have bought into. Note it is the Australasian police ministers council. Not the Australian police ministers council.
Below is the National Firearms Agreement Mentioned Above. Smoke and Mirrors. Possibly looking to start implementing here in NZ. AUSTRALASIAN POLICE MINISTERS’ COUNCIL
SPECIAL FIREARMS MEETING
CANBERRA
10 MAY 1996
RESOLUTIONS

1. Bans on Specific Types of Firearms
RESOLUTION
Council resolved:
(a) that all jurisdictions ban the sale, resale, transfer, ownership, possession, manufacture and
use of those firearms banned or proposed to be banned from import other than in the
exceptional circumstances listed in paragraph 1.2 of the Commonwealth proposal (see
below).
para 1.2 The only need for the use of an automatic or semi-automatic longarm would be:
 military;•
 police or other government purposes; and•
• occupational categories of shooters who have been licensed for a specified
purpose (eg extermination of feral animals).
(b) that all jurisdictions ban competitive shooting involving those firearms banned or proposed
to be banned from import.
Council agreed to implement its resolution via the following action plan:
1. All jurisdictions to ban the sale, resale, transfer, ownership, possession, manufacture and
use of those firearms banned or to be banned from import other than in the following
exceptional circumstances:
 military use;•
 police or other• government purposes; and
 occupational categories of shooters who have been• licensed for a specified
purpose (eg extermination of feral animals).
2. All jurisdictions to ban competitive shooting involving those firearms banned or proposed
to be banned from import.
3. The Commonwealth to ban the importation of all semi-automatic self-loading and pump
action longarms, and all parts, including magazines, for such firearms, included in Licence
Category D, and control the importation of those firearms included in Licence Category C.
2. Effective Nationwide Registration of All Firearms
RESOLUTION
Council resolved:
(a) that New South Wales, Queensland and Tasmania immediately establish an integrated
licence and firearms registration system and that all other jurisdictions review their existing
registration systems to ensure that all systems are compatible.
(b) that these databases be linked through the National Exchange of Police Information (NEPI)
to ensure effective nationwide regist

----------


## Danger Mouse

> How will that work when he's speaking as the union president, not as a police officer?


IPCA complaint and complaint to tvnz laid. Bringing nz police into disrepute, and conduct unbecoming by lying to the public and government. 

and apart from that, even if it comes to nothing, they need to investigate. We get mucked around enough, the police can start doing some running around for a change.

----------


## jackson21

> Did he actually say that? ill log a complaint with IPCA if thats the case.


Yes, just watched it. He said currently you do not need a licence to buy ammunition.

Was this guy previously a Police officer? He seems to make it up as hes going....I'm sure he will end up in the Labour Party at some stage

He also said normal firearms users have nothing to worry about as changes will not affect them.....
Same guy published he wanted pistols, and other automatic firearms banned last week....

I'm sure Mr Cahill will be reading this...stop making shit up, you will keep getting caught out looking foolish.
Our firearms laws actually work quite well despite your "dirty politics" media misinformation campaign. 
Yes they can be tweaked and this can be done sensibly with consultation of firearms user community to get a successful result.

----------


## Danger Mouse

ill contact paula bennett again and advise her that cahill is blatantly lying

----------


## jackson21

Even the TV host knows the Law as she came back and repeated correctly the Law I think

----------


## Ryan

â€˜Daily reports of guns found on gang membersâ€™ â€“ Police Association President - TV News Video | TVNZ






> "... I encourage them to have a look at the recommendations".


Oh don't worry about that, we have.

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## Danger Mouse

The thing that really grinds my gears, is that cahill is a blatant liar, and there is no accountability. Yet for us, lose your license sonny.

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## 223nut

"police can't check the storage of all firearms" Ummm don't know bout you folks but I had to get my safe inspected before I could get my licence  :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## Danger Mouse

This seems timely; Undercover officers help in massive Wellington police drug raid | Stuff.co.nz

----------


## Maca49

That guy is not of suitable intelligence to hold that position, thats got to be a concern to all.

----------


## systolic

> "police can't check the storage of all firearms" Ummm don't know bout you folks but I had to get my safe inspected before I could get my licence


The police and their union want police to be able to do security checks at any time on people with A cat licences, just like they can do already with those who have B, C, and E licences. 

Sounds like a good idea to me. One every 10 years when you know the guy is coming is hardly enough.

NZ First have increased security inspections as one of their policies too.

----------


## Danger Mouse

> The police and their union want police to be able to do security checks at any time on people with A cat licences, just like they can do already with those who have B, C, and E licences. 
> 
> Sounds like a good idea to me. One every 10 years when you know the guy is coming is hardly enough.
> 
> NZ First have increased security inspections as one of their policies too.


Given the likely minimal benefit of doing this for a cat holders, I dont agree with it. It would be far more productive to you know, ensure people no longer have firearms when their license expires. Like how it wasnt checked with jaan molenar

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## Ryan

> The police and their union want police to be able to do security checks at any time on people with A cat licences, *just like they can do already with those who have B, C, and E licences.*


Supposedly. 

I have yet to have an annual check in 4 years - I even mentioned it to my AO last year during my last P2P - still waiting. Good luck expecting them to manage significantly increased volumes of checks!

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## Koshogi

> Given the likely minimal benefit of doing this for a cat holders, I dont agree with it. It would be far more productive to you know, ensure people no longer have firearms when their license expires. Like how it wasnt checked with jaan molenar


Or investigating crimes, like burglary. Maybe improve on the <10% resolution rate.

----------


## systolic

> Supposedly. 
> 
> I have yet to have an annual check in 4 years - I even mentioned it to my AO last year during my last P2P - still waiting. Good luck expecting them to manage significantly increased volumes of checks!


I said 'can do'. Not 'did do'.

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## Ryan

> I said 'can do'. Not 'did do'.


And I'm saying that they don't do.

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## Danger Mouse

> And I'm saying that they don't do.


do you do, the doo doo, if not, who do.

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## Koshogi

> And I'm saying that they don't do.


So let's task them with doing something else. That they won't have time to do... :Wtfsmilie:

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## Sideshow

Had to laugh at that last stuff article with the photo of the sawn off, title operation walnut  :XD:  guess that was one of "those unlicensed hand guns"! Not much walnut left on that though :O O:

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## Maca49

Who is losing all these firearms?

----------


## Steve123

> Who is losing all these firearms?


Last I heard Plod was leaving them in dunnies. Maybe if the pricks solved burglaries less shitheads would embark on careers as thieving cunts.

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## Maca49

I say hot water, TVs and wi fi removed from prisons.

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## Steve123

Maybe if they don't want gang scum to have guns they shouldn't give them firearms licences. Try random warrantless searches on gang members and gang associates maybe? This Cahill prick is quickly evaporating the respect I have for Plod.

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## Savage1

> @Savage1 and @Steve338 I would like to hear your opinions on this topic.


To be honest I haven't read all of this thread. 

In my opinion we have a problem with licenced people wilfully supplying weapons to non licenced undesirables, there is simply nothing that really discourages it. I personally know of a HH that bought 10+ AR15s over a few months along with a heap of other shotguns and had an empty safe when inspected and had no explanation for who had them. 

Firearm possession amongst the criminal fraternities and incidents relating to it definitely have been on a steep rise in my area, it's becoming normal for them. I come across them often and have had them pointed at me and have mates that have been fired at. 

I have only just read the summary, and the majority of it I agree with. I disagree with the permit to procure, no permission should be required, more of a electronic or simple form to notify where it's gone. Don't really agree with the 'make all semis Ecat' but can understand the thought process. Registering websites for sale of arms would never work. 

Registration doesn't worry me, if they wanted m guns they would just come and get them. 

I'm more of a 'what can I do to help' kind of guy rather than someone who sees them as the enemy. At a glance there was some very good points in that summary, re security and penalties etc. it certainly didn't look like the sky was falling to me but I haven't read the fine print. Having already having my E endorsement all this would effect me is by having some more paperwork out which is a bargain for some of the holes it will help to close. Except the P2P for all guns, that can piss off. 

I'm doing this on my phone so I've probably left a heap out.

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## Maca49

Where do live grenades come from? Army losing shit as well?

----------


## veitnamcam

> To be honest I haven't read all of this thread. 
> 
> In my opinion we have a problem with licenced people wilfully supplying weapons to non licenced undesirables, there is simply nothing that really discourages it. I personally know of a HH that bought 10+ AR15s over a few months along with a heap of other shotguns and had an empty safe when inspected and had no explanation for who had them. 
> 
> Firearm possession amongst the criminal fraternities and incidents relating to it definitely have been on a steep rise in my area, it's becoming normal for them. I come across them often and have had them pointed at me and have mates that have been fired at. 
> 
> I have only just read the summary, and the majority of it I agree with. I disagree with the permit to procure, no permission should be required, more of a electronic or simple form to notify where it's gone. Don't really agree with the 'make all semis Ecat' but can understand the thought process. Registering websites for sale of arms would never work. 
> 
> Registration doesn't worry me, if they wanted m guns they would just come and get them. 
> ...


So why are the police issuing HH firearms licenses in the first place?
Is not that a fail on the fit and proper for a start belonging to a criminal organization? 

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## Maca49

> To be honest I haven't read all of this thread. 
> 
> In my opinion we have a problem with licenced people wilfully supplying weapons to non licenced undesirables, there is simply nothing that really discourages it. I personally know of a HH that bought 10+ AR15s over a few months along with a heap of other shotguns and had an empty safe when inspected and had no explanation for who had them. 
> 
> Firearm possession amongst the criminal fraternities and incidents relating to it definitely have been on a steep rise in my area, it's becoming normal for them. I come across them often and have had them pointed at me and have mates that have been fired at. 
> 
> I have only just read the summary, and the majority of it I agree with. I disagree with the permit to procure, no permission should be required, more of a electronic or simple form to notify where it's gone. Don't really agree with the 'make all semis Ecat' but can understand the thought process. Registering websites for sale of arms would never work. 
> 
> Registration doesn't worry me, if they wanted m guns they would just come and get them. 
> ...


Savage the real problem for me is the police not being open to us about what they want, it's a little clandestine doing things behind doors in secret with many , I suppose, that are not active hunters or enjoy any of the other legal activities of firearms. You mention the "enemy" I suggest a great mis trust because of this and topped off by a dick head who doesn't know his own law. I'm not upset at tighter security as long as the crims are dealt to, in announced invasion of my privacy is another matter. The polictical agenders don't help, appeasing the masses for votes, by picking on law abiding people, but that's another matter!

----------


## Savage1

> So why are the police issuing HH firearms licenses in the first place?
> Is not that a fail on the fit and proper for a start belonging to a criminal organization? 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


I'm pretty sure a gang member had his licence revoked for being a gang member but challenged it in court and police were over ruled by the judge as apparently being a gang member isn't a good enough reason, but police still get blamed. 

Often police aren't aware at the time that they're a gang member or associate or they become one later

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## Steve123

> I'm pretty sure a gang member had his licence revoked for being a gang member but challenged it in court and police were over ruled by the judge as apparently being a gang member isn't a good enough reason, but police still get blamed. 
> 
> Often police aren't aware at the time that they're a gang member or associate or they become one later


So why aren't the Police Association making any mention of this? Or the fact current sentences for firearm offending are a joke? Why should some meth dealing stand over fuckheads have a right not to be searched but your union rep wants my right's as a citizen removed so my house can be searched at any time?

----------


## veitnamcam

> I'm pretty sure a gang member had his licence revoked for being a gang member but challenged it in court and police were over ruled by the judge as apparently being a gang member isn't a good enough reason, but police still get blamed. 
> 
> Often police aren't aware at the time that they're a gang member or associate or they become one later


OK fair enough on that point then.....it's the only point I think needs to change tho.
Police have shown over an over an inability to keep accurate records in the past what has changed that will enable them to have a fool proof,tamper proof,shopping list proof register of ownerships and sales? 


Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## Ryan

Thanks for replying to the thread @Savage1 - your input is appreciated.

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## Danger Mouse

The US and them divide is a result of police attitude and action. I have a problem with registration.  I have a problem with police wanting me to forfeit my right to not be searched without a warrant. I have a problem with increasing restrictions on my sport for no benefit to society, particularly when the justification is based on blatant lies and bullshit. I have a problem with proposed restrictions when the piss poor enforcementioned of current legislation is not being addressed.  And most importantly, I have a big fucking problem with police making shit up and calling it law


EDIT I realise that this is coming from bullshit castle and not the Frontline troops. They are going to inevitably wear some of the frustration

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## stretch

I noticed in one of the police submissions this fancy chart full or corporate-speak. The bubble that says "Be Safe, Feel Safe" reminds me of a gun control debate I had with wifey last year. The masses are being fed lies (alternative facts, if you like) by the police association that the stats don't support. The masses that aren't LFAOs (and some that are) will support further restrictions on the law abiding because it will make them "feel safe", even though there may be little to no change in actual, tangible, measureable safety. For most, a perceived increase in safety is enough to warrant infringing on the rights of others. Warrantless searches, no more nice things, etc.

Those that trade their freedom for security deserve neither.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Sylvester

> Where do live grenades come from? Army losing shit as well?


No idea, should probably stop the Army from having them though, on the off chance that it did come from them. xD

----------


## outdoorlad

> The police and their union want police to be able to do security checks at any time on people with A cat licences, just like they can do already with those who have B, C, and E licences. 
> 
> Sounds like a good idea to me. One every 10 years when you know the guy is coming is hardly enough.
> 
> NZ First have increased security inspections as one of their policies too.


They don't even have time to attend to burglaries so how are they going to have time to come annoy us?

----------


## veitnamcam

> They don't even have time to attend to burglaries so how are they going to have time to come annoy us?


Plenty of time for speeding tickets tho.

----------


## Ryan

> Plenty of time for speeding tickets tho.


#passiveincome

----------


## Beavis

Abit of an aside. With these ominous suggested law changes, the A cat hunting crowd is starting to get a taste of what endorsed license holders have dealt with for years. Most people don't realise the headaches of basic things - importing being a prime example. Some people have waited over a year to hear back on an import permit application for simple things like magazines. I don't seam to have half the problems others do, but, I have forgotten more than once that I'd even applied for permits, as they just dissappear into the ether, than half a year later I'll get a random phone call saying it's at the front desk.

Another problem as of late is security. Again, I seem to have dodged a bullet, but others have had E cat safes for years, and then been told they are no longer accepted by police. 

Another example of policy chopping and changing - we were once allowed to own rifles with folding stocks, that were still ok even if they could be reduced below 762mm, as it was considered that a folding stock was an integral MSSA feature. The police have even used the illustration of a Norinco Type 56s, with a folding stock, as an example of an MSSA. That rifle folds down well below 762mm. The former head of licensing and vetting Joe Green even issued a statement outlining why these were legal. In the last couple of months PNHQ changed their mind, and suddenly many of us found ourselves in possession of illegal firearms which we had to modify or dismantle.

We give up our rights for a warranted inspection of our property already. While I find the idea of this disgusting, in practice, the majority of people never get audited, I guess due to a lack of resources. How they propose to improve on this with their current budget and staffing levels, with the added burden of thousands of other people, I do not know.

Our firearm transfers are already controlled by the permit to procure system. The way things are written currently regarding MSSA's, nobody can even touch your rifle other than yourself, legally. Whether they decide to amend this with any law change we will have to wait and see. It would be pretty stink if a father/son could get in the shit for touching each others firearms without a P2P. 

Make no mistake, if these changes come to pass, down the road you will find yourself on the receiving end of policy changes.

----------


## Ryan

That's right Beavis. 

Thankfully my folders still are sufficiently long enough to meet police's ever changing requirements. It is however perhaps poignant that Joe Green set that precedent (762+ extended) and then somehow got "managed out" and then the _policy_ changed. As I've said and will continue to say, my security has not received any inspection since the endorsed application inspection.

Could it be that the initial inspection is really sufficient? After all, a safe doesn't just simply rot away... Well, not unless exposed to the elements for hundreds of years.

----------


## Moutere

I'd like to encourage the NZ based youtube channels and VLOGers that are hunting and firearm orientated to raise awareness of this issue and challenge their subscribers and viewers to correspond with their MP.

Leave no stone unturned.

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## systolic

> Plenty of time for speeding tickets tho.


Is that why they're getting rid of more than 100 traffic officers? They might get retasked to do security checks.

----------


## Ryan

> Is that why they're getting rid of more than 100 traffic officers? They might get retasked to do security checks.


How about they get retasked to conduct burglary investigations? #toolittletoolate

----------


## systolic

> Who is losing all these firearms?


Retards who leave their safes unlocked for a start:

Man 'duped' into posing as glazier before stealing guns worth almost $50,000 | Stuff.co.nz

_The court heard Mosley and another man*burgled the property of a Dunedin Pistol Club member on October 25.
The pair*stole*28 firearms –*including five rifles, 23 pistols*and a large amount of ammunition worth $50,000*–_**from an unlocked*safe and cabinet.

*

Edited to add: No wonder the cops want more power to check security. If a highly vetted 'fit and proper' pistol club member can't be arsed locking his safe after showing some 'ladies' his stuff, how can anyone have any confidence that a farmer or deerstalker will do any better?

----------


## Ryan

> Retards who leave their safes unlocked for a start:
> 
> Man 'duped' into posing as glazier before stealing guns worth almost $50,000 | Stuff.co.nz
> 
> _The court heard Mosley and another man*burgled the property of a Dunedin Pistol Club member on October 25.
> The pair*stole*28 firearms –*including five rifles, 23 pistols*and a large amount of ammunition worth $50,000*–_*[B]from an unlocked*safe and cabinet.


  @systolic Pity those Police _policy_ annual security checks didn't save us.




> Edited to add: No wonder the cops want more power to check security. If a highly vetted 'fit and proper' pistol club member can't be arsed locking his safe after showing some 'ladies' his stuff, how can anyone have any confidence that a farmer or deerstalker will do any better?


Now you're sounding more like a police plant. Please, do go on.

----------


## dogmatix

> So anyone who points out shooters, like this wanker in Dunedin, are there own worst enemies much of the time is a police plant?
> 
> Go fuck yourself.


If you can't be polite and mature with what you write, maybe its time for you to take some time out?

----------


## Maca49

> Retards who leave their safes unlocked for a start:
> 
> Man 'duped' into posing as glazier before stealing guns worth almost $50,000 | Stuff.co.nz
> 
> _The court heard Mosley and another man*burgled the property of a Dunedin Pistol Club member on October 25.
> The pair*stole*28 firearms –*including five rifles, 23 pistols*and a large amount of ammunition worth $50,000*–_**from an unlocked*safe and cabinet.
> 
> *
> 
> Edited to add: No wonder the cops want more power to check security. If a highly vetted 'fit and proper' pistol club member can't be arsed locking his safe after showing some 'ladies' his stuff, how can anyone have any confidence that a farmer or deerstalker will do any better?


Mate 50k of those type of firearms doesn't add up to many. We are talking thousands a year here, actual figures closer to ? 100? Nobody releases the facts, bulk shipments across the boarder? Look how many drugs get through and they are targeted with special forces?

----------


## Maca49

> Is that why they're getting rid of more than 100 traffic officers? They might get retasked to do security checks.


If that's a fact I'll will rejoice!!!!' Hold on cars are killing far more people? Maybe the police just care about their own arses?

----------


## Beavis

> Retards who leave their safes unlocked for a start:
> 
> Man 'duped' into posing as glazier before stealing guns worth almost $50,000 | Stuff.co.nz
> 
> _The court heard Mosley and another man*burgled the property of a Dunedin Pistol Club member on October 25.
> The pair*stole*28 firearms –*including five rifles, 23 pistols*and a large amount of ammunition worth $50,000*–_**from an unlocked*safe and cabinet.
> 
> *
> 
> Edited to add: No wonder the cops want more power to check security. If a highly vetted 'fit and proper' pistol club member can't be arsed locking his safe after showing some 'ladies' his stuff, how can anyone have any confidence that a farmer or deerstalker will do any better?


Not much point trying to random inspect another 200k people then

----------


## Danger Mouse

> If you can't be polite and mature with what you write, maybe its time for you to take some time out?


Leave him alone, he has issues.

----------


## mikee

> If that's a fact I'll will rejoice!!!!' Hold on cars are killing far more people? Maybe the police just care about their own arses?


Yes but speeding people are like criminals.................hard to find. Better to create new ones whose details we already have and know where to find..........................oh cynical me !!!

----------


## Moutere

> At the top right of your screen is the word 'settings'. Click on it and on the left hand side of the page is 'edit ignore list'. Then you can add the names of the people who upset you and you won't have to read what they say. 
> Then the bad man won't upset your delicate sensitivities anymore.


Doesn't work like that buddy. This place is essentially self regulating by the members, if you're going to be a 'dick' be prepared to get called on it.
If you don't like that, then change your attitude or post elsewhere.

----------


## Sideshow

> Where do live grenades come from? Army losing shit as well?


No I think the airforce supplied that one  :O O:  along with pistol parts?

----------


## stug

> Doesn't work like that buddy. This place is essentially self regulating by the members, if you're going to be a 'dick' be prepared to get called on it.
> If you don't like that, then change your attitude or post elsewhere.


I did what he suggested and now all his posts show as ignored and I don't have to read his dribble.

----------


## stug

The dude in Dunedin was a bit shady from what I read. The reasons the criminals knew he had firearms was because the guy was paying ladies to pose with his firearms. The ladies saw where he was keeping them and told her friends.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/south-isla...ectid=11792504

----------


## stretch

COLFO's analysis of the report is out, and it's well written. http://www.colfo.org.nz/22-colfo/law...9s-report.html

Everyone should be using COLFO's report;  @Koshogi's template; and some of the better comments on Paula Bennett's FB post to form their own responses to send to MPs. Much of the work has been done for you, so if you're not much of a wordsmith, copy and paste the bits you like into your own submission. Get cracking.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...53222321496908

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

----------


## Danger Mouse

From: Independent Police Conduct Authority <case.resolution@ipca.govt.nz> 
Date: 12/04/17 13:38 (GMT+12:00) 
To: xxxxxxx
Subject: Your online complaint to the IPCA 

Dear Mr xxxxxxxx
Receipt is acknowledged of your online complaint form received at the IPCA on 11 April 2017.  The Authority is independent from the New Zealand Police  and takes complaints against current police officers.  You should therefore direct your complaint to the NZ Police Assn.  Their website address is: New Zealand Police Association | Police Association
or phone : 0800 500 122

Case Resolution Team
Independent Police Conduct Authority

----------


## dogmatix

So you have to complain about Cahill to the Association he is the President of.
What a joke.

----------


## 223nut

> So you have to complain about Cahill to the Association he is the President of.
> What a joke.


Wonders never cease do they

----------


## 6x47

If the Police Ass'n is any sort of organisation, it will at least have a Code of Conduct for its members, and possibly a Code of Ethics.

In either case, he'd probably be guilty of  " ..conduct that brings members into disrepute", in this case, being ignorant of basic law when spouting forth on TV.

----------


## Danger Mouse

> If the Police Ass'n is any sort of organisation, it will at least have a Code of Conduct for its members, and possibly a Code of Ethics.
> 
> In either case, he'd probably be guilty of  " ..conduct that brings members into disrepute", in this case, being ignorant of basic law when spouting forth on TV.


Vision / Mission / Values | Police Association

value number 1: act with integrity and honesty. I cant find a comlaints field on the website so will have to use the contact us form.

IPCA is wrong as well, as per: https://www.policeassn.org.nz/about-...ure/key-people it clearly states: Chris is a Detective Inspector

----------


## Krameranzac

Anyone from Napier? Here is your MP's response to the select committee report. Someone needs to educate him.

https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...nash-responds/

----------


## Steve123

> Anyone from Napier? Here is your MP's response to the select committee report. Someone needs to educate him.
> 
> https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...nash-responds/


So he's just regurgitated standard chardonnay socialist " we know better than you silly peasants" shit then.

----------


## Danger Mouse

RE: complaint against Police associate president Chris Cahill

On the 11 April broadcast of the TVNZ 'breakfast' show, Chris Cahill stated on air to the country that currently a firearms license is not required to be produced when purchasing ammunition. As per the arms act this statement is FALSE. Mr Cahill Mislead (he lied) to the country with this statement, and seeing as firearms legislation is currently under review after the select comittee report that was recently released, he lied to the government as well. 

I note that The police association has previously mislead the country in stating to the media that twenty thousand guns are stolen from kiwi shooters each year. Which is interesting, as the NZ police do NOT keep records of this. 

Why is the nz police association tolerating such a blatant lack of integrity from its president? This behaviour is unacceptable not only for licensed shooters of this country, but the public over all. During my service with the NZDF, this behaviour would likely result in a charge of bringing the service into disrepute. 

Mr Cahills actions are at odds with your organizations own stated values, as per Vision / Mission / Values | Police Association which clearly states that your number one value is to act with integrity and honesty. Mr Cahills Deliberate misdirection is anything but acting with integrity and honesty. 

I Have also laid a complaint with the IPCA, and will be forwarding a copy to the police minister.

----------


## Maca49

> No I think the airforce supplied that one  along with pistol parts?


The Air Force have hand grenades? What the fuck for? Playing tennis?

----------


## Danger Mouse

> The Air Force have hand grenades? What the fuck for? Playing tennis?


I was in one of the more field orientated units for 7 years, I only saw smoke grenades. Hand grenades were only used on pre deployment training, which was with army.

----------


## Sideshow

> The Air Force have hand grenades? What the fuck for? Playing tennis?


Don't no I was referring to that guy busted for stealing gun parts.

----------


## Maca49

> Don't no I was referring to that guy busted for stealing gun parts.


I know, you know! Seems the police,army and Air Force all need new firearm security?  :Grin:

----------


## Steve123

> The Air Force have hand grenades? What the fuck for? Playing tennis?


Trout season!

----------


## Sideshow

:Grin: 
Just finished reading the below thread nicely written! Now is the time to act guys get stuck in :Yuush: 
http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...ll-arms-34435/

----------


## Ryan

Here's an example from South Africa as to what could happen:

"Raids" on expired firearm licence owners
Haven't seen this posted yet, but from GOSA facebook page (and I know a couple of other organisations have emailed it out:

Paul Oxley

15 hrs

It is now confirmed that the Western Cape SAPS are acting on instructions to raid both firearm owners who have expired licences, and firearm dealers.
Today the Foundation for the Defence of Democracy, acting for a large number of dealers initiated action against the specific officers involved in the harassment and intimidation of a number of dealers.
GOSA can advise that, on the face of it, any action against an individual based solely on an expired licence is ultra vires (unlawful), and a direct contravention of the commitment given by SAPS to the High Court. The SAPS actions almost certainly rise to the level of contempt of court.
Whilst we can never advise that a member confronted by a SAPS member, who seems to be in possession of a search warrant, should resist the orders of that officer, we would advise that you immediately contact the Foundation for the Defence of Democracy.
You can contact them by email at issueswithcfr@gmail.com or in emergency via our 24hr callcentre on 08 61 10 61 90.

Facebook

----------


## bolty

Perhaps he could go to 'Stralia he might like the gun laws over there better....I'm sure someone will start a give-a-little page to help fund his relocation

----------


## Steve123

> Perhaps he could go to 'Stralia he might like the gun laws over there better....I'm sure someone will start a give-a-little page to help fund his relocation


I'll chip in a size 11 boot.

----------


## mikee

> Lets bring Dougie back, and fuck off this systolic dude, dont need him on here!


Now now chaps everyone entitled to their opinions we cant always agree on everything. That's what makes us civilised.

Banning people for their opinions makes us no better than North Korea.

----------


## Savage1

@Danger Mouse
Cahill is not a police officer anymore so complaining to the IPCA is pointless. I'm betting it wasn't an intentional lie at all, more likely he doesn't know much about it. 

Reading some of the posts on here I must say that we come across as arrogant and unreasonable, too much emotion and exaggeration. Exactly which points are bad? Why are they bad? And think of how your responses will look to the average non firearm user. 


OJR

----------


## Ryan

> Cahill is not a police officer anymore so complaining to the IPCA is pointless. I'm betting it wasn't an intentional lie at all, more likely he doesn't know much about it.


But he should - he is representing your organisation. It's like Dr Nick Riviera from the Simpsons fronting a medical convention.




> Reading some of the posts on here I must say that we come across as arrogant and unreasonable, too much emotion and exaggeration. Exactly which points are bad? Why are they bad? And think of how your responses will look to the average non firearm user.


All the points are bad. Here's why:

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...ll-arms-34435/

----------


## outdoorlad

I've sent a few emails off to MP's,one of the suggestions I made was,

Stop the burglars & you stop opportunist theft off firearms. How do you do this, well one way would to be increase the penalties for firearm theft to discourage them, if a burglar knows they will get 5 years for stealing a rifle vs community service for stealing a TV etc. then hopefully they will think twice.

----------


## Danger Mouse

> @Danger Mouse
> Cahill is not a police officer anymore so complaining to the IPCA is pointless. I'm betting it wasn't an intentional lie at all, more likely he doesn't know much about it. 
> 
> Reading some of the posts on here I must say that we come across as arrogant and unreasonable, too much emotion and exaggeration. Exactly which points are bad? Why are they bad? And think of how your responses will look to the average non firearm user. 
> 
> And yeah, where is Dougie?



NZ police association needs to update its web site in that case. Thanks for the clarification.

Regarding the rest of your post, I think this is due to the increasing restrictions for no benefit over the last 15 years, and the people introducing these restrictions dont have a clear understanding of the current legislation. Its pretty poor form to recommend change to something that they havent even bothered to understand. 

The behavior of nz police in regards to policy over riding law isnt acceptable. Are they (or yourself) surprised at the increase in cynicism and change in attitude to nz police as a result? If you make unreasonable demands of me and demand compromise from me, but never compromise yourself, dont expect me to smile and say everything is good.

----------


## Sasquatch

> Cahill is not a police officer anymore so complaining to the IPCA is pointless. I'm betting it wasn't an intentional lie at all, more likely he doesn't know much about it.


 @Savage1 I believe it was fully intentional, this is not the first time he has done this. Remember the 20,000 guns stolen each year...??? And that was broadcast on air!!




> Reading some of the posts on here I must say that we come across as arrogant and unreasonable, too much emotion and exaggeration.


Well actually the points you've made right here ^^^ is _exactly_ how the police are behaving, no question about it. Look how they start their flaming submission: "_There are too many firearms, and too many of the wrong type, in the wrong hands"_ Key word there is wrong type. Given their ultra-vires behavior the last 18 months that could mean anything. To add, just look how the police word the start of the arms code, _"firearm ownership in NZ is a privilege, not a right"_ This is so backwards & in my opinion - arrogant.

Firearm ownership in NZ _is_ a right. Full stop.

You speak as if the police are not being arrogant or unreasonable but that's exactly how they have come across to law-abiding fit & proper persons!




> Exactly which points are bad? Why are they bad? And think of how your responses will look to the average non firearm user.


As mentioned before, all of it. We are not "gaming" the system and that was a blatant lie in the police's submission. Will you defend your organizations lies??

----------


## 223nut

Guys a think we need to let @Savage1 and others stay quiet, this whole situation is a sticky mess. I know for a fact that police officers aren't allowed to bring the organisation into disrepute. How can he answer these questions without putting his job on the line???

Would you be willing to risk your career over a) this forum b) recomendations that may not come to fruition and c) changing peoples ideas bout firearm ownership (some pig headed ignorant people on this forum [not meaning anyone individually])

We know they follow this forum so it wouldn't take much now would it.....

----------


## Danger Mouse

> Guys a think we need to let @Savage1 and others stay quiet, this whole situation is a sticky mess. I know for a fact that police officers aren't allowed to bring the organisation into disrepute. How can he answer these questions without putting his job on the line???
> 
> Would you be willing to risk your career over a) this forum b) recomendations that may not come to fruition and c) changing peoples ideas bout firearm ownership (some pig headed ignorant people on this forum [not meaning anyone individually])
> 
> We know they follow this forum so it wouldn't take much now would it.....



I actually appreciate the input from guys like savage. I think its important to distinguish between front line officers, and those rolling out 'policy' and advocating restrictions. They arent the same.

----------


## 223nut

> I think its important to distinguish between front line officers, and those rolling out 'policy' and advocating restrictions. They arent the same.


Very true,

----------


## stug

Agree, the Police staff in Canterbury have been awesome to deal with, pity Head Office seem to have it in for firearms owners.

----------


## Ryan

Whilst I don't agree with everything savage1 says - I'd certainly agree with his right to say it. 

As an aside, my recent dealings with the arms officer have been pretty good - it took me just over a week to get an import permit for a Zhukov stock for my AK, so things are still capable of being processed in a timely manner. YMMV.

----------


## Savage1

> @Savage1 I believe it was fully intentional, this is not the first time he has done this. Remember the 20,000 guns stolen each year...??? And that was broadcast on air!!
> 
> 
> 
> Well actually the points you've made right here ^^^ is _exactly_ how the police are behaving, no question about it. Look how they start their flaming submission: "_There are too many firearms, and too many of the wrong type, in the wrong hands"_ Key word there is wrong type. Given their ultra-vires behavior the last 18 months that could mean anything. To add, just look how the police word the start of the arms code, _"firearm ownership in NZ is a privilege, not a right"_ This is so backwards & in my opinion - arrogant.
> 
> Firearm ownership in NZ _is_ a right. Full stop.
> 
> You speak as if the police are not being arrogant or unreasonable but that's exactly how they have come across to law-abiding fit & proper persons!
> ...


You need to learn the difference between the Police Association and the NZ Police.

Just because you believe something doesn't make it true, if he was going to intentionally lie I'd expect them to be of more significance and harder to check.

What's incorrect about the opening statement? I believe there is too many firearms in the wrong hands, don't you? Surely you're not angry because you didn't like the wording which is pretty clear it's about the wrong people having them? I believe firearm ownership is a privilege, I realise that it can be argued either way but it can be taken away and is not granted at birth and is not available to all people and it's certainly not listed in the Bill of Rights Act. But this is just my opinion.

By saying that all of the submission is bad makes you appear to have a chip on your shoulder and doesn't look good when trying to explain what you disagree with to other people. This post of yours is exactly what I'm talking about, it looks irrational and unreasonable. 

"gaming the system" wasn't a lie at all, certainly not a blatant one. "Gaming" is a matter of subjective opinion and they probably aren't far off the mark, whether you or I agree or not.

----------


## jakewire

I am going to lock and clean up this thread, or maybe just clean it up I haven't decided

I realise sometimes some of us need a place to vent and an audience to vent to, however for a thread that is in the public eye, some of us, not doubt with good conviction have let our emotions run away to the point that the thread makes all of us look like exactly what the  anti public firearms ownership crowd want to believe we are.

Stop with the boorishness and I'll just clean it up
If anyone at all uses the c word or attacks another member in this thread again I will delete it.

----------


## stretch

Latest video address from NZ First MPs Ron Mark and Richard Prosser:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...12881728924623

You don't need to "do" Facebook to be able to view the video.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Krameranzac

@Savage1 

I would humbly offer that there are people who do agree with PARTS of the select committee report. However people are cagey about saying that because in submissions to parliament or politicians such a statement is often taken as agreement with the document at hand. As such people will often reject a report like this in its entirety so as not to be seen supporting it or giving anyone a chance to skew their response.

----------


## Ryan

Everything said in that video is 100% true. The police will never let up in their effort to use sneaky, underhanded and _ultra vires_ tactics to further encroach on the rights of law-abiding to citizens to legally possess and use firearms. They've been doing this since 1920 - every few years owning or wanting to own a firearm becomes more and more onerous. The evidence that they do this is clear as a bell to those of us that have been following this for a long time.

No offence intended against you personally savage1 - we've met before and we've corresponded a couple of times via PM. You seem like a good bloke but I really find it difficult to respect your organisation when your superiors are playing power games with our interests, without our involvement behind the scenes and then lying to our faces that it's all going to be okay and it's not going to affect us.

/ends

----------


## Danger Mouse

> Everything said in that video is 100% true. The police will never let up in their effort to use sneaky, underhanded and _ultra vires_ tactics to further encroach on the rights of law-abiding to citizens to legally possess and use firearms. They've been doing this since 1920 - every few years owning or wanting to own a firearm becomes more and more onerous. The evidence that they do this is clear as a bell to those of us that have been following this for a long time.
> 
> No offence intended against you personally savage1 - we've met before and we've corresponded a couple of times via PM. You seem like a good bloke but I really find it difficult to respect your organisation when your superiors are playing power games with our interests, without our involvement behind the scenes and then lying to our faces that it's all going to be okay and it's not going to affect us.
> 
> /ends


Its the common theme of the rich, the politicians and police HQ. Just lie.

----------


## Krameranzac

https://www.facebook.com/RonMarkMP/v...5599608986165/

Ron Marks latest update.

----------


## 308

I'll happily put my hand up in support of better security around ammo storage and cautiously support phasing in better A-cat safe requirements over time but overall they've royally screwed up the whole MSSA classification and are looking like doing the same for overall length of MSSAs with folding /collapsible stocks

Police hold inaccurate records of my pistols so how can I trust them to get it right with full registration? It's not just as a FAL owner that I oppose full registration, it's as a taxpayer I despair of the NZP doing the right thing with IT projects after INCIS and their current poor record keeping

I can see a lot of my hard-earned getting flushed down the toilet when it has been tried before (Canada) and shown to not work

In the UK it is extremely difficult for your average punter to get a FAL and the gangs are happily running around with Czech submachine guns because they are criminals



It's not a firearms thing, it's watching people going the wrong way and charging me to do it that gets my goat

----------


## Krameranzac

https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...642_1_A517097/...

This is the Police submission and Police Association submission

https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...642_1_A500340/...

----------


## Krameranzac

So looking at that submission the Police Association would like to see Australian and UK style firearm laws but need registration to make it happen. Another reason to fight it.

----------


## Sasquatch

> You need to learn the difference between the Police Association and the NZ Police.


I am aware of the difference but you can't tell me that the bias distrust felt from FAL holders across the country is only because _we_ believe it to be true when you think it's not. This distrust has formed largely from police & MSM propaganda. There has been countless lies & disinformation spread in and around the proliferation of firearms. That is a fact.




> Just because you believe something doesn't make it true


This statement is true, I agree. To add, people are entitled to their own opinions too but that doesn't mean they are fact. And this is where yours & my opinion varies especially on the Bill of Rights 1689. 




> What's incorrect about the opening statement? I believe there is too many firearms in the wrong hands, don't you? Surely you're not angry because you didn't like the wording which is pretty clear it's about the wrong people having them?


Nothing is incorrect with the opening statement, I agree that there are firearms in the wrong hands. Perhaps the police could remove the 29 FAL's held by gang members to help with this. Too many firearms in the wrong hands though? Well at the moment this is only backed up by anecdotal evidence and _firsthand_ accounts known only internally. I want hard statistical facts backed up by reliable data to be provided and to date things are contradicting themselves because firearm offending is trending *down* as the population is increasing but the police say otherwise? This to me is a good all round statistic that counters all of this babel that there is even a gun problem in NZ to begin with.




> I believe firearm ownership is a privilege, I realize that it can be argued either way but it can be taken away and is not granted at birth and is not available to all people and it's certainly not listed in the Bill of Rights Act. But this is just my opinion.


Which brings me back to yours & my opinion and where opinions don't always remain fact. Yes Firearms ownership is a "privilege" in New Zealand as the Arms legislation provides it as a right, immunity or advantage, protected by law, to those fit and proper persons who apply for a firearms licence (i.e. pay a tax) which a licence shall be issued to them as the legislation clearly states.

Not "may" be issued or "could" be - A licence *SHALL* be issued.

If you believe in the right to life as stated here: New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 No 109 (as at 01 July 2013), Public Act 8 Right not to be deprived of life &ndash; New Zealand Legislation Then surely you must realize that we have a right to defend one's life too.

Richard Prosser had this to say on another forum which sums it up nicely: 

_"Oh but it is a right. It is a timeless universal human right to be able to possess the means of ensuring one's survival, be that in terms of hunting food, or defending oneself, and one's home and family, or protecting the society or nation of which one is a part.

Neither the English Bill of Rights nor the US Constitution make reference to the right to have arms for the purpose of granting that right; the right exists, as do all elements of the Common Law, and it does not need to be granted, nor may it be denied other than within the Common Law. Rather, it is referenced in order to recognise and acknowledge that right, and to assert and affirm it so that it may not be forgotten or denied by those who make the rules and those who live under them, now and in the future.

The wording of the English Bill of Rights makes it in some ways a more elegant instrument than the US Constitution, because it states that the arms the citizens may have may be "suitable to their conditions", acknowledging that those conditions may change with time and circumstance. By definition arms used for one's defence must be capable of countering threats to one's safety, and as the means of threat evolve, so must the arms available to the citizens be able to evolve.

In the day of its writing, the Bill would have contemplated swords, pikes, muskets, and similar arms. Today it encompasses modern firearms. In the future it will encompass such technology as man is able to develop as time goes on. The conditions may change but the right does not.

The BOR also states that the having of arms shall be "as allowed by the law", meaning that the law shall allow it, but also that within the law there may be provisions to prevent breaches of the law, providing the law the ability to deny the having of arms to those who threaten the law so long as that law is lawful. That sounds convoluted but it means that the likes of criminals and the mentally unsound may be denied the having of arms, but also that no law that unlawfully denies rights under the law is a lawful law. 

This latter consideration is pretty much how the granting of firearms licences operates in New Zealand today - a person demonstrating that they have the ability to safely have arms shall be issued with a licence, unless there is some lawful reason why they should not. This is the only matter in which the concept of 'privilege' applies with regards to the having of arms.

For clarity, a lawful law is one crafted within the constraints of the rights of the People. Parliament is of course Sovereign, and can create whatever laws it chooses - but it must be remembered, within that, that the powers of the Sovereign are not unlimited. Sovereign Power is no longer the divine right of Kings to rule alone under God, but rather is contained within, and constrained by, the terms of the Magna Carta.

So a law passed by a Sovereign Parliament, which breaches the terms of the Magna Carta, is not a lawful law. Law abiding people are not bound by such a law, and indeed it is their duty as citizens to oppose it.

So mote it be."
_




> "gaming the system" wasn't a lie at all, certainly not a blatant one. "Gaming" is a matter of subjective opinion and they probably aren't far off the mark, whether you or I agree or not.


Well this brings me back to why I originally picked at the police's opening statement in their submission, they believe there are "too many of the wrong type" Your union president has been quoted saying "why on earth do we need MSSA's & pistols in the country"

But hey, you could be right, I might just be reading between the lines. Somehow though, my gut tells me otherwise.

----------


## Beavis

To be honest I would turn it around and say that police are the ones that are gaming the system. There is no other requirement for an E endorsement than the applicant being fit and proper, and having security of sound construction. The president of the police association has publically stated that he doesn't see why we should be able to own pistols and MSSA's, and the police associations submission leads one to believe that they think obtaining an E endorsement should be exceedingly difficult, if they think that "gaming the system" is giving advise to people who are applying for one.

Read the arms act. None of their made up stuff is in there.

----------


## Krameranzac

And then there is this gem from that buffoon Cahill.

Just in case you had any doubt about the intentions of the Police Association under Chris Cahill:

" We need to examine why semi-automatics are needed in a hunting environment " " bear in mind it's very easy to turn these weapons into full automatics and get them into the hands of criminals "

" I've sat around a fire talking to hunters and duck shooters and they don't use semi-automatic weapons because they don't need to. "

Morning Rural News for 20 April 2017 | Rural News | Radio New Zealand

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/pr...-20-april-2017

----------


## oraki

As I said in the other thread Call To Arms, we need to keep it tidy. That way we've at least keep some credibility to the general public who are able to see this, as well as the people who monitor all forums and feed back to whom it concerns. 
There's a lot of good stuff written here, but with abit if creative editing, can make us look like redneck buffoons, and that supports every untruth said about us legal, law abiding citizens

----------


## veitnamcam

Unfortunately I do believe the outright lies and sensationalism are in no way an accident.

Cahill knows he isnt going to be kicked off of the pigs back for telling a few porky's and he also knows telling the population lies repeatedly works, it is called propaganda and has been used by dictators to great effect threw-out the world and history.

He isnt stupid he is as cunning as a outhouse rat.

----------


## oraki

> Unfortunately I do believe the outright lies and sensationalism are in no way an accident.
> 
> Cahill knows he isnt going to be kicked off of the pigs back for telling a few porky's and he also knows telling the population lies repeatedly works, it is called propaganda and has been used by dictators to great effect threw-out the world and history.
> 
> He isnt stupid he is as cunning as a outhouse rat.


I'm guilty if not taking to much notice of this as there's abit going on here at the moment. But the timing for this is impeccable. Middle of the roar, leading up to opening duckshooting, last holiday rabbit shoot..... Historically the time most incidents happen, so more statistics to throw around to the easily mislead public

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## Tommy

> Unfortunately I do believe the outright lies and sensationalism are in no way an accident.
> 
> Cahill knows he isnt going to be kicked off of the pigs back for telling a few porky's and he also knows telling the population lies repeatedly works, it is called propaganda and has been used by dictators to great effect threw-out the world and history.
> 
> He isnt stupid he is as cunning as a outhouse rat.


I wonder how many people he has fucked over with that lying gob of his? I hear zero police distancing themselves from his position either.

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## veitnamcam

> I wonder how many people he has fucked over with that lying gob of his? I hear zero police distancing themselves from his position either.


When the police overthrow the govt it would be handy if the population was unarmed.

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## Longranger

We have firearms license holders also who think you guys have it all wrong.......and the Committee to all intents and purposes fully supports this view......there has not been a word of dissent from them......!

Have a read and let him know what you think.......https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...-useful-idiot/

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## veitnamcam

How does the latest policeman shooting his wife? play into this?

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## jackson21

> How does the latest policeman shooting his wife? play into this?


Nothing apart from the upside of poor Police training I think the guy survived being shot?

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## 308

> How does the latest policeman shooting his wife? play into this?


It doesn't

It's a sad fact of spousal abuse in this country that (mostly) men kill their wives/ girlfriends on a regular basis

Rifles, knives, cars, bare hands and usually cos they have decided to get out from under the bloke's abuse and make a new life for themselves

This one happened to be a cop but I reckon that it should have zero bearing on the current firearm legislation other than just being another grim statistic to add to the pile

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## Beavis

> It doesn't
> 
> It's a sad fact of spousal abuse in this country that (mostly) men kill their wives/ girlfriends on a regular basis
> 
> Rifles, knives, cars, bare hands and usually cos they have decided to get out from under the bloke's abuse and make a new life for themselves
> 
> This one happened to be a cop but I reckon that it should have zero bearing on the current firearm legislation other than just being another grim statistic to add to the pile


Pretty much this. After reading the shit storm of brain dead police bashing comments on face book, I am left wondering how many cases like this go unnoticed by the media because the perp is a nobody. I can see the irony of a police officer doing this, while their association calls for stricter gun laws, and I can see our favourite union man spinning it back onto us, but at this point in time I think it is in bad taste to comment. Makes us no better than the grave dancing antis.

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## Sideshow

Yep here here

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## Keltic_Kiwi

According to the labour party face book page it is National and the Maori party that are making these new laws not Mr Nash!

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## Ryan

LoL "paws".

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## Beavis

&#39;Old school&#39; hunter praises police inquiry into semi-automatc firearms | Stuff.co.nz

Be very very quiet. I'm hunting wabbits.

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## Steve123

> LoL "paws".


Wait till they classify double barrels as restricted due to the number of sawn offs in criminal hands.

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## Pineapple

> More correctly, it's a sad fact in this country that so many Kiwi's abuse others and the majority turn a blind eye.  Psychological abuse, child abuse, bullying, violence, it's just a factor of strength I think that the majority of damage is perpetrated by males IMO.  The numbers of women twisting the legal system in cases of seperation, or using controlling behaviours towards their ex by threatening to report for abuse of the children is a serious and growing issue.  I actually suspect it's a systemic issue with the social policy system, if you get a chance to talk shop with a social worker get them to give their trained opinion on domestic violence.  They are invariably conditioned to refer to the female as the victim and the male as the offender or the abuser, it's how they are trained.  Until we sort that systemic ignorance of the real issues out we are not going to sort the problem out.


This is not something I have turned my mind to previously, however I saw this last weekend. Witnessed a car pull up, male and female got out. Female was screaming at the male got right up to him and then grabbed his face with one hand, the guy pushes her away and starts walking away, female followed him and punches him in the back of the head and this happens a few more times. They see me approahing them and my wife on the phone and the female gets back in the car and drives off. I talk to the guy and he seems ok. My wife was talking to the police call centre and the odd thing was that they were taking far more interest in what he was doing "is following her?", "did he push her to the ground?" "Has he hit her" "whats he doing now" even asked for his description and the description of his car (that she drove off in) before asking for a descrition of her.

While I understand that they were confirming his actions in case of a he says she says but my wife said it felt like an uphill battle to get across that she was attacking him and he was trying to walkaway.

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## veitnamcam

> This is not something I have turned my mind to previously, however I saw this last weekend. Witnessed a car pull up, male and female got out. Female was screaming at the male got right up to him and then grabbed his face with one hand, the guy pushes her away and starts walking away, female followed him and punches him in the back of the head and this happens a few more times. They see me approahing them and my wife on the phone and the female gets back in the car and drives off. I talk to the guy and he seems ok. My wife was talking to the police call centre and the odd thing was that they were taking far more interest in what he was doing "is following her?", "did he push her to the ground?" "Has he hit her" "whats he doing now" even asked for his description and the description of his car (that she drove off in) before asking for a descrition of her.
> 
> While I understand that they were confirming his actions in case of a he says she says but my wife said it felt like an uphill battle to get across that she was attacking him and he was trying to walkaway.


It is always they guys fault when dealing with the police/justice system. My friend has been threw absolute hell because he impregnated a crazy woman, finally it looks like he will get full custody after she has spent 6 years screwing up a young boy. :Oh Noes:

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## jackson21

> It is always they guys fault when dealing with the police/justice system. My friend has been threw absolute hell because he impregnated a crazy woman, finally it looks like he will get full custody after she has spent 6 years screwing up a young boy.


Try applying for child support as a male and see how they treat you. Takes sometime for them to understand you are not a male  trying to slide out of paying but just want some of your tax paying money taken off their bludging benefit 😀 (I have fully custody) , the money amount is nominal, less than a packet of cigarettes a week but a fun exercise never the less .

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## jackson21

Back to the topic of thread 

Looking right back to the Heather Du Plessis Allan staged stunt and where this was likely driven from.  This has been a well planned political agenda by a certain association and organization.

Dirty politics of misinformation, lying to public through main stream media, secret submissions  it certainly hasn't happened overnight with a clearly driven objective from the people driving it.

Personally I think they have miscalculated as although they managed to get through simular laws on the back of an unfortunate mass killing in their previous home country. They might have tried to take to big a bite of changing the laws in this country in the same way due to arrogance and not understanding much of our history and culture.

Either way next election will probably spell it out where all hunting and shooting sports will end up in future for NZ.

Labour/Green coalition will see it gradually become  quite difficult due to mass beuractic paperwork(their tool)to own and participate in shooting and hunting sports and drive towards United Nations disarm citizens framework 

Right/Centre coalition will see a backlash from public and massive growth in all shooting sports in New Zealand due to publicity from campaign to restrict. 
Laws will be addressed in consultation with stakeholders and some sensible revamps to act updated that actually achieve something. Largely a continuation of NZ's successful focus on who should and shouldn't person basis of Arms act. Rather than endless regulations that achieve nothing.

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## Beavis

It was interesting at the meeting. Try as I might, I couldn't get Nash to say that registration was a waste of time. He acknowledged that it won't stop guns getting into the hands of criminals. He acknowledged that it was a failure in Canada, and it doesn't stop criminals in Australia getting firearms. He ackowledged that police here, don't have the resources or the technology to implement it effectively. But, he still said "but what if we can get the technology?".

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## jackson21

He's only just trying to get through the next election and have a job.
He thought he was on a cake run chairing that select committee sucking up whatever the Police told them and would pass through into law piece of piss on the quiet with the masses saying "here, here, ban the guns etc..".
Will be regretting it now, as he might have got away with it in say a central Auckland or Wellington Electorate. Napier being quite rural something like this seems to have the ability to focus away from what might be more important electoral issues.

Staggering they spent that much time on the Select Committee and to have such little understanding of the law(genuinely, not like Cahill who just lies).
He should have talked more to his "shooting mates" while ignoring all other stakeholders submissions.

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## Krameranzac

> It was interesting at the meeting. Try as I might, I couldn't get Nash to say that registration was a waste of time. He acknowledged that it won't stop guns getting into the hands of criminals. He acknowledged that it was a failure in Canada, and it doesn't stop criminals in Australia getting firearms. He ackowledged that police here, don't have the resources or the technology to implement it effectively. But, he still said "but what if we can get the technology?".


I wonder what technology Stuart means? Computers maybe? I am sure Canada had some of them when they tried and failed in the registration game.

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## gonetropo

> I wonder what technology Stuart means? Computers maybe? I am sure Canada had some of them when they tried and failed in the registration game.


you cpuld have HAL 9000 at your disposal it wont make a difference if people dont comply. the best firearms security you can have is people not knowing what you have

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## Sylvester

> you cpuld have HAL 9000 at your disposal it wont make a difference if people dont comply. the best firearms security you can have is people not knowing what you have


Probably don't even need non compliance for it to be worthless, just look at some of our other government led computer/software systems. Novopay and INCIS come to mind.

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## 308

> you cpuld have HAL 9000 at your disposal it wont make a difference if people dont comply. the best firearms security you can have is people not knowing what you have


Given what HAL does in the film, that may not be a good example

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## Ryan

> I wonder what technology Stuart means? Computers maybe? I am sure Canada had some of them when they tried and failed in the registration game.


I suspect he was referring to RFID.

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## Sideshow

Tourism roars past dairy as NZ's biggest export earner - Business - NZ Herald News
Bet there a few hunters in these numbers.  
And they want to change the laws and hurt the in come  :Wtfsmilie: 
Our maybe to many guns hurts this image......so what's 1080 doing

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## Danger Mouse

> Try applying for child support as a male and see how they treat you. Takes sometime for them to understand you are not a male  trying to slide out of paying but just want some of your tax paying money taken off their bludging benefit 😀 (I have fully custody) , the money amount is nominal, less than a packet of cigarettes a week but a fun exercise never the less .


Family court is EXTREMELY sexist.

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## Beavis

Nicole McKee and Geoff Thomas have been selected as our representitives to the minister of police.

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## veitnamcam

> Nicole McKee and Geoff Thomas have been selected as our representitives to the minister of police.


As in "outdoors with Geoff" Geoff Thomas?

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## JasonW

> As in "outdoors with Geoff" Geoff Thomas?


Yep...

Sent from my GT-I9295 using Tapatalk

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## veitnamcam

> Yep...
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9295 using Tapatalk


We are fucked.

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## JasonW

> We are fucked.


Yep... 

Sent from my GT-I9295 using Tapatalk

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## veitnamcam

Selected by whom?

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## gonetropo

ok, seen a few episodes of outdoors with geoff, is he an issue ??

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## veitnamcam

> ok, seen a few episodes of outdoors with geoff, is he an issue ??


Did he come across as sober/the full quid or ramble absolute nonsense as if it was fact ?

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## JasonW

> Did he come across as sober/the full quid or ramble absolute nonsense as if it was fact ?


"Now the .308 used to be called the .30-06" or something like that wasnt it oneday? 

Bombing up goats on the skyline with a semi. 

Pretty sure they choppered in above queenstown and he gutshot a deer they never recovered or that might have been old howie.

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## 308

Nicole is ok

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## Sasquatch

Came across this the other day, certainly can apply this to NZ

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## Frodo

I'll be unpopular...

I'm all for democracy and retaining our privileges, but if you subscribe to the idea that 'total freedom' is synonymous with a certain materialistic possession or activity, then you're essentially selling yourself away! ANY of our possessions can be taken away from us...so can our ability to do a certain activity (due to financial hardship, physical handicaps etc). But flexibility, mindfulness, the willingness and ability to adapt; we truly own all of that. I'd be temporarily devastated if I couldn't hunt or shoot or live that lifestyle -- but it would be unhealthy to assume that similar enjoyment cannot be obtained elsewhere in the event that life handed me a cruddy deck of cards or if a Hunger Games situation was forced upon the world...

In that sense, I see the gun debate as totally justified (and especially from a democratic standpoint) but some of the emotion fuelled drivel being spouted by the likes of the NRA is akin to a little kid being deprived of their toy and allowing themselves to be deeply and emotionally affected by it. "We're losing our freedom!! Our lives are at stake!!" A bit of perspective can go a long way...

Fight for it, but don’t allow the harrowing thought of losing your Tikka T3 to affect your libido or appetite. Your gun does not define your entirety...and if it had to, why a Tikka?

Just thought I'd be comforting... :Grin:  Lol
*Runs out the door*

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## Sasquatch

> . But flexibility, mindfulness, the willingness and ability to adapt;


I agree possessions _can_ be taken away, in the video she explains historically how this has happened. However, it doesn't mean we have to conform to anti-freedom agendas. That is not adapting.





> it would be unhealthy to assume that similar enjoyment cannot be obtained elsewhere in the event that life handed me a cruddy deck of cards or if a Hunger Games situation was forced upon the world...


Why should we have to substitute for something else? I certainly wouldn't want to. Aside from your "cruddy deck of cards" I'll use your Hunger Games situation whereas that would put us in a dystopian future ruled by a tyrannical govt and I would not want to be unarmed, would you?




> In that sense, I see the gun debate as totally justified (and especially from a democratic standpoint) but some of the emotion fuelled drivel being spouted by the likes of the NRA is akin to a little kid being deprived of their toy and allowing themselves to be deeply and emotionally affected by it. "We're losing our freedom!! Our lives are at stake!!" A bit of perspective can go a long way...


I hear your angst on some of what the NRA spouts off but honestly, that is justified. Just look at what is happening here especially in the last 18 months with PNHQ and the main-stream media, nothing but lies & deceit. A total disgrace and very undemocratic.

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## Frodo

Points taken

Yes, the NZ police and our government have a lot to answer for. 

Shooting and hunting make up a large part of the fabric that is NZs past and present, and it's vital we continue to voice our concerns about unjust restrictions being imposed on us.

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