# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Firearms Project Community Discussion Sessions: FCAF update

## steven

Hi  All,

If interested,

Good morning FCAF members  

"In Polices effort to review and improve the administration of the Arms Act, the Arms Act Service Delivery Group is looking closely at how Police can best deliver firearms related services to the public in a timely, consistent, and cost effective manner.

To assist with this work, the project team are looking to meet with Police district staff and firearms user community members for participatory discussion sessions in all police districts.  These sessions are designed in a way that it will enable you to contribute creatively to the current thinking around challenges, opportunities, needs and wants of the firearms community when interacting with Police for Arms Act related services. We want to hear about any insights you may have from your interaction with the Police and external agencies involved in delivery of services. We will also spend some time to understand from you what you think are the areas we need to focus on and how we may improve our service model to deliver consistent, timely and efficient services to you. During the workshop, you will have a chance to ask questions, have open and genuine discussion and provide any feedback to help us shape our understanding of unique issues in your community.



The schedule of visits is shown below.  While the times and dates will remain unchanged, the schedule will be updated with venue locations as we finalise arrangements with venue providers.  Updates will be published on the News and Updates section of the Police website News and updates | New Zealand Police. 



All firearms community members are welcome to attend and I would be grateful if you could distribute this information widely across your networks. 



Firearms Community Sessions Schedule

District


Date


Session Time

Wellington


Friday 1 June


12.30pm to 2pm

New Plymouth


Tuesday 5 June


11am to 12.30pm

Taupo


Wednesday 6 June


10.30am to 12pm

Napier


Thursday 6 June


4.30pm to 6pm

Palmerston North


Thursday 7 June


4.30pm to 6pm

Rotorua


Monday 11 June


10.30am to 12pm

Tauranga


Monday 11 June


8am to 9.30am

Manukau


Tuesday 12 June


4.30pm to 6pm

Whangarei


Wednesday 13 June


4.30pm to 6pm

Gisborne


Thursday 14 June


4.30pm to 6pm

Greymouth


Monday 18 June


4.30pm to 6pm

Christchurch


Tuesday 19 June


4.30pm to 6pm

Timaru


Wednesday 20 June


4.30pm to 6pm

Hamilton


Thursday 21 June


4.30pm to 6pm

Nelson


Monday 25 June


4.30pm to 6pm

Blenheim


Tuesday 26 June


1pm to 2.30pm

Invercargill


Thursday 28 June


4.30pm to 6pm

Dunedin


Friday 29 June


2pm to 3.30pm



Kind regards,



Mike



Mike McIlraith

Officer in Charge
Arms Act Service Delivery Group

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## Pengy

Dates and times are not very user friendly to the  general WORKING interested party.  :Sad: 
Is that a deliberate ploy

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## SiB

Its important enough Ill be there regardless

Yes I appreciate not all workers will have the flexibility.  

But this is important.  Im certainly concerned that non-hunters/shooters loaded with media hype will present a skewed and disproportionate perspective on firearm safety in our community

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## 40mm

ill try, how about one on the shore???? manukau is  a prick of a place to get out of at that time.

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## kotuku

Given the high number of westcoast firearms owners would have thought their input would be sought .out of common courtesy at very least.

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## R93

> Given the high number of westcoast firearms owners would have thought their input would be sought .out of common courtesy at very least.


I agree. Its bullshit to be fair.  Maybe we are too feral 



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## SiB

If this is their consultation process, and you guys are raising valid concerns, then it is imperative those concerns are made public at the forums, or in writing via whatever process is established. 

Do not assume that by questioning, or, dare I say it, venting on this forum you have done your bit; you havent.  You need to ensure whatever concerns, questions and praise you might have are directed, and duly recorded within the appointed process.  

I for one am becoming increasingly aware that consultation requires active and intelligent participation. 

And if the implications are unclear to you, that in itself is a danger sign.

Ask yourself; 

How will these changes benefit me? 
How might these changes benefit my family, my community? 

How will this process benefit legitimate users of firearms per our current situation and classifications? 

How will this directly reduce the risks associated with firearms, including possession and use of firearms by non-licenced users, including criminal elements? 

My 5c worth

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## Cordite

> If this is their consultation process, and you guys are raising valid concerns, then it is imperative those concerns are made public at the forums, or in writing via whatever process is established. 
> 
> Do not assume that by questioning, or, dare I say it, venting on this forum you have done your bit; you haven’t.  You need to ensure whatever concerns, questions and praise you might have are directed, and duly recorded within the appointed process.  
> 
> I for one am becoming increasingly aware that ‘consultation’ requires active and intelligent participation. 
> 
> And if the implications are unclear to you, that in itself is a danger sign.
> 
> Ask yourself; 
> ...



Yes, put it into writing.  Danger is that "consultations" will otherwise be able to get abused in a cherry picking manner to push through predetermined agendas/"conclusions".  

Sorry, this is an ongoing thing: no end in sight.  Just gotta keep on keeping on.

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## csmiffy

> Given the high number of westcoast firearms owners would have thought their input would be sought .out of common courtesy at very least.


I doubt it very much-if they have an agenda to push through they will do whatever it takes to make it happen
My one and only experience with community consultation was as a chair on a board of trustees for a school in the firing line in a nationwide school review to close schools.
As far as I was concerned it was a farce. Anecdotal evidence of farming communities having their one and only community consultation meeting held right in the fat part of milking so few could turn up for example.
It was basically a forum where they could show that they consulted with us but were told all the way through that it may not make any difference anyway.
I found it was a classic example of "yes minister" where the staff of the ministry dept. managed to push their agenda onto a govt who were willing to barge it through care of their hit man Trevor Mallard. managed to keep our school but closed down 5 out of 8 schools and merged them.
So no I doubt they have common courtesy and do not trust them to do what's right.

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## Beaker

I'm keen to go along and throw my thoughts in the mix.
A concern is that for the Auckland region to have only one session is asking for trouble. Ie Timaru has one the same time length - 30k vers 1.5m people. Just doesn't seem right.
I might ask if Paula B is going to it........

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## Pengy

> If this is their consultation process, and you guys are raising valid concerns, then it is imperative those concerns are made public at the forums, or in writing via whatever process is established. 
> 
> Do not assume that by questioning, or, dare I say it, venting on this forum you have done your bit; you haven’t.  You need to ensure whatever concerns, questions and praise you might have are directed, and duly recorded within the appointed process.  
> 
> I for one am becoming increasingly aware that ‘consultation’ requires active and intelligent participation. 
> 
> And if the implications are unclear to you, that in itself is a danger sign.
> 
> Ask yourself; 
> ...


Maybe they should put it out the wider audience then, possibly by use of that little thing that just about everyone has access too, the internet. Rather than holding meetings at times and places that restrict input

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## kotuku

hahaha -no need to tell me about so called consultation -im a health professional -frontline -constantly subjected to consultations by spotty wee tertiary educated herberts who push the bosses agenda.what gets right up my clacker is when they start spouting off about "the process"
standard reply 
when was the last time you cleaned up a dirty jacksie 
when was the last time you sat on a dark stormy night holding the handof a lonely dying person as they breathed their last
when was the last time.......
one particularly virulent wee knowall got this 
I came here with my colours on my back before you or your origins even swam in ya old mans nutsack!
a prize dick who got the DCM shortly after.

Im well awar eof police HQ pushing an agenda ,but whats more worrying is Stuart Nash as police minister is starting to show signs of uncertainty.

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## gonetropo

> hahaha -no need to tell me about so called consultation -im a health professional -frontline -constantly subjected to consultations by spotty wee tertiary educated herberts who push the bosses agenda.what gets right up my clacker is when they start spouting off about "the process"
> standard reply 
> when was the last time you cleaned up a dirty jacksie 
> when was the last time you sat on a dark stormy night holding the handof a lonely dying person as they breathed their last
> when was the last time.......
> one particularly virulent wee knowall got this 
> I came here with my colours on my back before you or your origins even swam in ya old mans nutsack!
> a prize dick who got the DCM shortly after.
> 
> Im well awar eof police HQ pushing an agenda ,but whats more worrying is Stuart Nash as police minister is starting to show signs of uncertainty.


its not just in the health industry, the same thing is happening in the trades.
we have excuses for apprentices that think they know it all and have been brainwashed to think they can choose what to do. ive had them refuse to go into a roofs pace because of spiders! ask for safety equipment such as charcoal filtered fans for a 1 minute soldering job because of "toxins". 
i was on a roof in the rain, asked the young fella to go grab more cable. 20 minutes later he's not back i find him in the van eating smoko because "it was 10 o'clock"
and then we wonder why the hell we hire immigrants and import ready built product

back to subject, i will be there in chch to listen to the BS slant on lawful shooters.
hey kotuku hoped you enjoyed the disc

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## gadgetman

> Given the high number of westcoast firearms owners would have thought their input would be sought .out of common courtesy at very least.





> I agree. Its bullshit to be fair.  Maybe we are too feral 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk





> Greymouth
> 
> 
> Monday 18 June
> 
> 
> 4.30pm to 6pm


I always thought Grey was on the wet coast.

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## R93

> I always thought Grey was on the wet coast.


Never said I could read gud

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## Marty Henry

I just raised the subject of not enough meetings in metro areas with the local AO, yet to get a reply, has anyone else done the same, surely COLFO,etc will be on it.

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## gonetropo

anyone else notice the founz website is down for 3 days now

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## kotuku

> its not just in the health industry, the same thing is happening in the trades.
> we have excuses for apprentices that think they know it all and have been brainwashed to think they can choose what to do. ive had them refuse to go into a roofs pace because of spiders! ask for safety equipment such as charcoal filtered fans for a 1 minute soldering job because of "toxins". 
> i was on a roof in the rain, asked the young fella to go grab more cable. 20 minutes later he's not back i find him in the van eating smoko because "it was 10 o'clock"
> and then we wonder why the hell we hire immigrants and import ready built product
> 
> back to subject, i will be there in chch to listen to the BS slant on lawful shooters.
> hey kotuku hoped you enjoyed the disc


they never seem to shy away at the mention of payday though do they. always fucking eager to please when money is in the offing.still laughing mate still laughing.

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## Rushy

> ill try, how about one on the shore???? manukau is  a prick of a place to get out of at that time.


Right at peak hour traffic.  Genius!

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## Boaraxa

just had a look at the police website provided I see first up is upper hutt from 12.30-2 pm , iv never been to the upper hutt police station but is there room for 4-500 people or what ? , what sort of numbers are you guys expecting from the citys/provinces ? never been to any such meetings but im thinking any sensible licence holders out there need to be at these meetings even for solidarity , way I see it the only liberty's that need eroded are the crims.

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## Taff

4.30-6.00, so that rules out about 90% of people who actually work for a living, Typical civil service organisation.

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## Danger Mouse

> 4.30-6.00, so that rules out about 90% of people who actually work for a living, Typical civil service organisation.


It's deliberate. They get to day they did their consultation w while minimizing the type of comment they know they will get

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## csmiffy

> It's deliberate. They get to day they did their consultation w while minimizing the type of comment they know they will get


Yup definitely

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## ebf

> Never said I could read gud


Isn't that normal for the coast ?  :Grin:

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## R93

> Isn't that normal for the coast ?


Dunno. Ask me about extra appendages

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## SiB

The question of the timing of these fora, and the perceived agenda to make participation awkward for likely attendees is a question that should be put at EVERY meeting.

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## Russian 22.

I probably can't make the Manukau one cos of work but what sort of things are they asking to do and what sort of thing should we be raising.?

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## Jexla

> anyone else notice the founz website is down for 3 days now


We missed it being down for a couple days, our bad. I've been really slack with posting there and that's totally my bad, I've been deep in my studies. I will try my best to keep it updated.

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## 300CALMAN

I have NO idea how I could get to Manukau at that time and still get to work. CRAZY or intentional?

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## Gillie

Well the New Plymouth session is less than a week away now and they haven't published the location as yet... Assuming the location isn't too far away I should be able to make it along. Should be interesting if nothing else.

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## muzza

Spoke to the NP District Arms Officer this morning -looks highly likely that the NP venue will be the TSB Showplace / Opera House T 11 - 12-30 on Tuesday.

However Keep checking the Police page in the link given to confirm

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## Sasquatch

> Well the New Plymouth session is less than a week away now and they haven't published the location as yet... Assuming the location isn't too far away I should be able to make it along. Should be interesting if nothing else.


So let me get this straight. The forum is less than one week away and no info on _where_ it's being held?? Geez that makes sense. What also makes alot of sense to me is to post the date and time _before_ the location has been advised.

I'm starting to agree with this deliberate thing, especially when you analyze the times chosen per district.

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## muzza

so - if you want to attend and be heard , you will have to get over the fact that its poorly organised or advertised. You know where to look to find the information , make use of it and attend , and present yourself as a sensible  person with sensible ideas and input .

If we all rush in and rant at them that will simply play into their hands

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## SiB

Questions such as;

Whilst I applaud the principle of public consultation being applied here, I would appreciate some explanation regarding the process;re the  timing of these consultations, and notifications of the specific locations?

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## MrDrifter

I can tell you the Wellington session is a farce, holding it in Upper Hutt in the middle of the day is just ridiculous. A good portion of the population heads into the city for work via public transport which gives them no chance of attending. But if it was to be held in central Wellington, we could get a decent turn out.

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## SiB

An encouragement to any forum members who are also members of other clubs/forums; looks like most locations are sorted- start spreading the word!!!!

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## muzza

times and venues

News and updates | New Zealand Police

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## Rushy

I don't mean to be cynical but every one in Auckland needs to go down to the back end of Papakura.  Could they not have found a more central venue?

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## Russian 22.

Anyone got any suggestions on what to say. I can make the Manukau one after work. But no clue what to say.

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## muzza

how about - " why are these meetings at times and places that prevent most interested parties from attending " and "Why does the NZ Police treat law abiding firearms owners like criminals yet ignore the actions of actual criminals? " and " Please explain what is wrong with the current firearms laws in NZ " and "When will the New Zealand Police start enforcing the law consistantly throughout the country" and " why does the NZ Police allow the President of the NZ Police Assn to publicly tell lies and make up figures to suit his own agenda , when he knows that information to be patently untrue ".

Theres a few to begin with

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## 300CALMAN

Manukau - Tuesday 12 June - 4.30pm to 6pm Papakura Rugby Club, 2 Ron Keat Drive Papakura ! So not even really Manukau, Papakura.

Good questions @muzza
 @Russian 22. the question "what is wrong wit the current way things are done" is right on. The other question is "what is the point of this 1/2 ass consultation and what changes are you planning to make after it" and "can we quote you in parliament on that" 

It would be good to record it on your phone.

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## stretch

> Manukau - Tuesday 12 June - 4.30pm to 6pm Papakura Rugby Club, 2 Ron Keat Drive Papakura ! So not even really Manukau, Papakura.
> 
> Good questions @muzza
>  @Russian 22. the question "what is wrong wit the current way things are done" is right on. The other question is "what is the point of this 1/2 ass consultation and what changes are you planning to make after it" and "can we quote you in parliament on that" 
> 
> It would be good to record it on your phone.


"Manukau" as in the entire area covered by the Counties-Manukau Police District. http://www.police.govt.nz/about-us/s...unties-manukau



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## Rushy

The cynic in me says this whole charade is a farcical nonsense.

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## muzza

I tend to agree but if we all sit back then we wont be able to complain when "they" shove it collectively right up us.

The Police think that Forums are full of big-mouthed radicals - so my local Arms Officer told me the other day - so heres the chance to present ourselves as being sensible , reasonable , concerned citizens who also happen to have a Firearms Licence. If we dont take the opportunity then we will get screwed over......

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## SiB

Totally agree. Im not one for public meetings of any sort. But I dislike the hysteria surrounding guns and their lawful use, whilst appearing to ignore their unlawful possession and use by the criminal sorts.

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## Sasquatch

> The Police think that Forums are full of big-mouthed radicals - so my local Arms Officer told me the other day


To me it sounds more like your AO was describing the Police Association's President.

+1 On recording the meetings.

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## ebf

Similar to the map stretch posted about Auckland district, the Welly police district includes Wairarapa up to Masterton and beyond Martinborough, so Upper Hutt is centrally located if you look at it from a geographical perspective.

Heading to the meeting in a bit and will see how it turns out  :Have A Nice Day:

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## gadgetman

If you read the purpose of the meetings it is to discuss how to interact and deliver services to the firearms community. So a pretty narrow scope they are wanting to deal with. This is not about the actual laws, rules, etc.

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## ebf

Back from the Welly meeting. Around 20 shooting folk turned up, ranging from dealers, organizations such as service rifle, colfo, airsoft, pistol clubs, and individual license/endorsement holders.

Purpose of the meetings are two-fold:

1) to have meetings with local firearms staff, hence the timing/locations that may not make sense to some (they met with the Wellingtion, Hutt, Wairarapa etc staff this morning)
2) engaging with fire-arms community

Basically facilitated session where they are asking what is working, and what the pain points are...

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## muzza

Dunno if you are Facebookers but here is the link to the video of the Wellington meeting. May also be available at the FOUNZ web page

https://www.facebook.com/firearmowne...%20united%20nz

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## Ryan

> Back from the Welly meeting. Around 20 shooting folk turned up, ranging from dealers, organizations such as service rifle, colfo, airsoft, pistol clubs, and individual license/endorsement holders.
> 
> Purpose of the meetings are two-fold:
> 
> 1) to have meetings with local firearms staff, hence the timing/locations that may not make sense to some (they met with the Wellingtion, Hutt, Wairarapa etc staff this morning)
> 2) engaging with fire-arms community
> 
> Basically facilitated session where they are asking what is working, and what the pain points are...


Are you able to please provide a synopsis of what was discussed?

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## ebf

@Ryan, I attended as an individual license holder, not representing any particular organization.

COLFO, or some of the clubs/organizations may well release some info.

There is also a livestream of the meeting that was recorded by FOUNZ on their Faceplant page.

What I will say is that if you value shooting and the benefits of having your firearms license, make all reasonable efforts to attend one of the sessions or at least ensure that someone who represents you does so...

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## Sideshow

> Back from the Welly meeting. Around 20 shooting folk turned up, ranging from dealers, organizations such as service rifle, colfo, airsoft, pistol clubs, and individual license/endorsement holders.
> 
> Purpose of the meetings are two-fold:
> 
> 1) to have meetings with local firearms staff, hence the timing/locations that may not make sense to some (they met with the Wellingtion, Hutt, Wairarapa etc staff this morning)
> 2) engaging with fire-arms community
> 
> Basically facilitated session where they are asking what is working, and what the pain points are...


Are they want to know what the pain points are....let me clear my throat :Wink:  1. Cahill and his lying! 2.Poor customer service (waiting times in regards to license printing and processing) sure I missed a few but not a bad start

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## Sasquatch

Not long watched the video of the Wellington meeting, some good points were made. Ken from NZAR15 & Steve from Burley arms raised some very valid issues of the inconsistencies dealers are faced with from NZPHQ.

From what I heard, nothing sounded _radical_ to me.

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## Boaraxa

20 people from the capital is woeful

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## ebf

> 20 people from the capital is woeful


Hopefully more people make an effort to attend the other meetings.

Had a quick count as we went up to the meeting, I got to 18.

At least 3 were dealers. 2 from airsoft. 2 I knew as COLFO reps. So about 10 others....

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## 308

> 20 people from the capital is woeful


I would have gone but had to work and I'd imagine that a lot of others would be in the same boat

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## Gillie

Well I have just got back from the New Plymouth meeting (only maybe ~15 attendees). A very frank and open discussion about how Police are administering the act and what/how improvements could be made. Overriding themes were improving consistency (in everything from handling applications, to permit approval times, in vetting and referee interviews, in assessing security requirements, etc.), and also improving communication (both with the shooting community and particularly the media).

One of the suggestions was that when Police (NOT their Union) could post communication bulletins on their website i.e. when they are asked to comment or are interviewed for something a transcript of the discussion could be posted to take out the media bias in only quoting a small proportion of a discussion (potentially out of context), or they could write their own firearms update blog (license application numbers, firearm import numbers, firearms related offences, security threats and failures, etc.) basically along the lines on what KiwiGunBlog does but do it themselves. 

A whole bunch of other specific points were brought up and discussed as well around forms, vetting approach, criminal misuse and sentencing, etc. Yes, the timing and communication of the meetings was discussed as well. 

Mike was certainly approachable and it was good to see him take direct points (without watering them down) and acknowledge improvements that could be made. 

I hope that they take our feedback on board and suitable improvements happen.


Very interesting to hear Mike talk and explain the new practical portion of new licence application process. It will be interesting to see this get implemented.

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## ebf

Simon, when he introduced the team he had brought, did he mention anything about a Police Association rep being present ?

Curious how they are going to deal with this after they did this in the Welly session.

Would also be good for guys around the country to specifically ask at the start if a Police Association representative is present and why.

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## Gillie

@ebf - no, he did not identify or introduce a Police Association representative. We had a different facilitator than the Wellington meeting as well. 

There was some discussion about the perception of the Police Association and how they are damaging the relationship between the Police and firearms community. Hence the suggestion Police publish their own facts rather than have the firearms community only seeing small quotes taken potentially out of context, Police Association propaganda, or the media bias.

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## MrDrifter

It was interesting at the Wellington session to see how adamant Mike was to make clear the Police and the Police Association are different entities. The PA representative was also very adamant they weren't a spokesperson and didn't engage any further.

The audience suggested that Police call out that distinction more often in the media as the public had a perception that the Police and PA are the same and speak for each other.

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## Danger Mouse

> It was interesting at the Wellington session to see how adamant Mike was to make clear the Police and the Police Association are different entities. The PA representative was also very adamant they weren't a spokesperson and didn't engage any further.
> 
> The audience suggested that Police call out that distinction more often in the media as the public had a perception that the Police and PA are the same and speak for each other.
> 
> Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


Last time I checked, cahills bio on the police association web site says he IS a detective inspector. I get the impression he is playing both sides of the fence  representing himself as a police officer to establish delegated authority, and saying he is police association when it suits him - IPCA won't look at him and he has no accountability to nz police

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## ebf

> Last time I checked, cahills bio on the police association web site says he IS a detective inspector. I get the impression he is playing both sides of the fence  representing himself as a police officer to establish delegated authority, and saying he is police association when it suits him - IPCA won't look at him and he has no accountability to nz police


And that is exactly what Cahill is there to do. The police specifically point out that the Police Association is a separate organization (it is a union for rank-and-file officers).

What it means is that the police association can (and do) say things in the media which the NZ Police can not be seen to be saying...

It is time we as the firearms community start playing the same game. Some are already...

You will not get the IPCA to investigate the Police Association, nor will you get anywhere bitching to the NZ Police about them...

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## muzza

I was at todays meeting  , and I will put my hand up and say that I suggested the idea of the Police having a web page that was updated often with relevant information. I think that was reasonably received , and we may see that sometime in the future.

The Police are not going to muzzle that idiot Cahill. That is patently obvious - the Police appear unwilling to even discuss issues with him. I asked what they were going to do to counteract the outright lies that the guy tells and I got a sanitized , politicians answer that basically went " blah blah blah" - so dont expect to see anything there. Very little interest in countering those lies in the media , and not a very popular view of social media either .

But - Mike did listen , take notes , and appeared to be genuine . Only time will tell , I am not holding my breathe waiting...

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## Cordite

> If you read the purpose of the meetings it is to discuss how to interact and deliver services to the firearms community. So a pretty narrow scope they are wanting to deal with. This is not about the actual laws, rules, etc.


 @gadgetman

They say that, but whatever comes out of it that suits them, they'll use for other agendas too, like shooters figuratively throwing other shooters under the bus.  Not being cynical, just realistic.

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## ebf

@Cordite, I find the whole concept of "shooters throwing other shooters under the bus" a bit strange.

To expect all firearms users to share the same views is madness... People from all walks of life are firearms users, they have different requirements. To expect that a recreational hunter would have the same requirements as a top level Olympic or Comonwealth athlete is beyond me. Throw in some pistol shooters, service rifle competitors and the odd collector and you have about as diverse a group as you can get.

Maybe I am just involved in a wide verity of firearms activities (I loooooove shooting  :Thumbsup: ), but to be honest I think there is more that unites us than what divides us. Where things go pear-shaped is when people start expecting my views and requirements to match theirs EXACTLY and start thinking of me as a "traitor" when I have views that differ from theirs.

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## Cordite

> I was at todays meeting  , and I will put my hand up and say that I suggested the idea of the Police having a web page that was updated often with relevant information. I think that was reasonably received , and we may see that sometime in the future.
> 
> The Police are not going to muzzle that idiot Cahill. That is patently obvious - the Police appear unwilling to even discuss issues with him. I asked what they were going to do to counteract the outright lies that the guy tells and I got a sanitized , politicians answer that basically went " blah blah blah" - so dont expect to see anything there. Very little interest in countering those lies in the media , and not a very popular view of social media either .
> 
> But - Mike did listen , take notes , and appeared to be genuine . Only time will tell , I am not holding my breath waiting...


  @muzza

Yes. Next time Cahill opens his mouth to spout rubbish, maybe best to simply state the facts.  Then spend the rest of our energy on pointing out HOW CAHILL, AGAIN, IS IRRESPONSIBLY DAMAGING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LFAO'S AND POLICE.  

Decent rank and file cops need to know they have someone harmful [mis]representing them!

Cahill was made NZPA President in 2016 for a three year term, and so is up for re-election October 2019 at the Annual NZPA Conference if he seeks re-election.  If keen on re-election, one would naturally expect Cahill to seek as much publicity, likely at LFAOs expense, over the coming year and a bit.  .  He needs to get called out for what damage he is causing with his mouth, but less engagement with his rubbish.

  @ebf

Yes, slightly differing views will always be with us.  The only real problem out there for shooters is apathy.  And that most of us choose to work for our living and so we can't go to the meetings.

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## Sasquatch

> @Cordite, I find the whole concept of "shooters throwing other shooters under the bus" a bit strange.


The main divide between shooters that is most apparent to me has been between average-jo duck & deer hunters and people who shoot pistols/MSSA's. Their concept on the matter is "we don't need those type of guns" - We certainly wouldn't use them hunting so those guns should be gone. Even some pistol shooters are anti MSSA's. 

When you take a step back and try and look at it from an outside perspective, we all share a common hobby/sport we all enjoy. Why should one overrule the other? Just because one group might be a minority doesn't make them any less important. That it why we need to stand together on this critical matter and defend each others discipline. 

I care about deer hunters/long range shooters/clay-bird shooters - You name it! So they should return the favour.

----------


## Cordite

> The main divide between shooters that is most apparent to me has been between average-joe duck & deer hunters and people who shoot pistols/MSSA's. Their concept on the matter is "we don't need those type of guns" - We certainly wouldn't use them hunting so those guns should be gone. Even some pistol shooters are anti MSSA's. 
> 
> When you take a step back and try and look at it from an outside perspective, we all share a common hobby/sport we all enjoy. Why should one overrule the other? Just because one group might be a minority doesn't make them any less important. That it why we need to stand together on this critical matter and defend each others discipline. 
> 
> I care about deer hunters/long range shooters/clay-bird shooters - You name it! So they should return the favour.


Hi  @Sasquatch

I'm sorry about pissing into your "high-capacity" magazines some months ago.  

(I did achieve to fill four of them though, helped in all fairness by the displacement of the cartridges).

----------


## Sasquatch

> Hi  @Sasquatch
> 
> I'm sorry about pissing into your "high-capacity" magazines some months ago.  
> 
> (I did achieve to fill four of them though, helped in all fairness by the displacement of the cartridges).


  @Cordite If memory serves me right was that about service rifle shooting? No need for an apology your're all good :-)

----------


## Beavis

> The main divide between shooters that is most apparent to me has been between average-jo duck & deer hunters and people who shoot pistols/MSSA's. Their concept on the matter is "we don't need those type of guns" - We certainly wouldn't use them hunting so those guns should be gone. Even some pistol shooters are anti MSSA's. 
> 
> When you take a step back and try and look at it from an outside perspective, we all share a common hobby/sport we all enjoy. Why should one overrule the other? Just because one group might be a minority doesn't make them any less important. That it why we need to stand together on this critical matter and defend each others discipline. 
> 
> I care about deer hunters/long range shooters/clay-bird shooters - You name it! So they should return the favour.


This very thing was bought up at the Taupo meeting. One particular gentleman got very vocal about how MSSA's and A cat semi autos are useless for hunting, and that all of them should be restricted to E endorsement holders, because A cat shooters shouldn't have the same firepower as the police. Ironically didn't have an issue with 10/22's or semi auto shotguns. Got very excited again when somebody mentioned E cat security should be the standard across the board, said it would alienate too many people...

One of the main things to come out of our discussion, was that there should be an escalation for when you are having a dispute with an arms officer, without needing to take legal action, or attempt to use the IPCA (who are antigun and always rule in favour of police it seems)

----------


## Sasquatch

Did anyone counter that man's argument @Beavis? 

I struggle with people who choose to be that deliberately naive. Little does that ridiculous man know, LFAO's will _always_ have more firepower then the police which is a pointless remark regardless.

----------


## ebf

Yup agree with what you guys are saying. 

Those differences were clear in Welly as well. What gets me is that most of the B and E endorsement holders are very well aware of the fact that they need to be self policing their mates. It is in their interest to do so. We do not have the same understanding amongst the average A license holders.

Excellent point about escalation  @Beavis, hopefully that gets some traction.

----------


## Beavis

> Did anyone counter that man's argument @Beavis? 
> 
> I struggle with people who choose to be that deliberately naive. Little does that ridiculous man know, LFAO's will _always_ have more firepower then the police which is a pointless remark regardless.


I pointed out that:

There really isn't much evidance to call for that - our firearm crime is really low, despite the proliferation of semi auto rifles

The same A cat shooter can go to the local gun store and get a Beretta Extrema and fill it up with buck shot, have an equally deadly weapon depending on the circumstances

But the conversation got shut down by Mike because it was irrelevant to the meeting.

We also recommended that payment for licensing be facilitated online - Mike was keen on this, more or less said it should be a given in this day and age. 

I bought up examples of AO's interpreting the arms act to suit their own prejudices or what not. Mike stated that it is a training issue and they had dropped the ball on this. I also mentioned that front counter staff should be able to handle mail order forms without fobbing it off as no their responsibility. Another training issue to be resolved.

----------


## Jexla

> I pointed out that:
> 
> There really isn't much evidance to call for that - our firearm crime is really low, despite the proliferation of semi auto rifles
> 
> The same A cat shooter can go to the local gun store and get a Beretta Extrema and fill it up with buck shot, have an equally deadly weapon depending on the circumstances
> 
> But the conversation got shut down by Mike because it was irrelevant to the meeting.
> 
> We also recommended that payment for licensing be facilitated online - Mike was keen on this, more or less said it should be a given in this day and age. 
> ...


Yup Napier went much the same way.

Had fudd and son hunters there, trying to suggest there should also be a practical element to getting E cat also as well as the changes to getting a standard license, then when question about it started to tell us about the fully auto firearms we were shooting.
Was quickly cut down, but made a nuisance the rest of the meeting.

Mike asked me to email him details about my gas block import permit saga after telling him about it. Whilst he seemed genuine at the time, I continue to have little faith anything will come from it.

Link about the gas block import permit story: https://www.facebook.com/firearmowne...65547177117866

----------


## muzza

Unfortunately there is always that element out there who dont want to be all-inclusive as long - as they get what they want .

Mike appears to be a genuine guy but at the level this "review" is operating nice guys will fall by the wayside.

----------


## Backcut

> I was at todays meeting  , and I will put my hand up and say that I suggested the idea of the Police having a web page that was updated often with relevant information. I think that was reasonably received , and we may see that sometime in the future.
> 
> The Police are not going to muzzle that idiot Cahill. That is patently obvious - the Police appear unwilling to even discuss issues with him. I asked what they were going to do to counteract the outright lies that the guy tells and I got a sanitized , politicians answer that basically went " blah blah blah" - so dont expect to see anything there. Very little interest in countering those lies in the media , and not a very popular view of social media either .
> 
> But - Mike did listen , take notes , and appeared to be genuine . Only time will tell , I am not holding my breathe waiting...


I had a sit down with McIlraith a year ago about the website idea. He gave me the same shit. I followed up and even spoke to his tech guy about it. Same patronizing shit. Its something they could do fast and cheep and solve a lot of small issues. But no.

----------


## Backcut

> Dates and times are not very user friendly to the  general WORKING interested party. 
> Is that a deliberate ploy


They didnt even invite dealers. Or clubs. They just want to tick the box.

----------


## Backcut

> I just raised the subject of not enough meetings in metro areas with the local AO, yet to get a reply, has anyone else done the same, surely COLFO,etc will be on it.


Yeah.... COLFO are defending it. Saying that we need to understand that police are fitting us in around other things. Wow. You spoil us. Is this how a side chick feels?

----------


## Backcut

No. He is a time share salesman. Pure bullshit. I showed him that police had invented law in a mail order form. He agreed immediately. Nothing happened for months. After it was publicized too much for his liking. Zero trust left for the man. Have had MANY other dealings with him where he displays utter contempt.

----------


## 10-Ring

> No. He is a time share salesman. Pure bullshit. I showed him that police had invented law in a mail order form. He agreed immediately. Nothing happened for months. After it was publicized too much for his liking. Zero trust left for the man. Have had MANY other dealings with him where he displays utter contempt.


Backcut, is the "he" you are referring to here McIlraith or someone in COLFO?

----------


## 40mm

> Yup Napier went much the same way.
> 
> Had fudd and son hunters there, trying to suggest there should also be a practical element to getting E cat also as well as the changes to getting a standard license, then when question about it started to tell us about the fully auto firearms we were shooting.
> Was quickly cut down, but made a nuisance the rest of the meeting.
> 
> Mike asked me to email him details about my gas block import permit saga after telling him about it. Whilst he seemed genuine at the time, I continue to have little faith anything will come from it.
> 
> Link about the gas block import permit story: https://www.facebook.com/firearmowne...65547177117866


morons. or moreoffs

----------


## marky123

No,fudds who think firearms controls will stop at ‘a’ category definition.I did invite them to a club where they could see b and e cat guns but they didn’t take me up...

----------


## Sasquatch

Fudds mentality is poison to the firearms community. If you applied their "logic" to transport we would have no fast cars or motorbikes on our roads.

----------


## marky123

I get that.But what do we do?

----------


## Cordite

> I get that.But what do we do?


 @marky123

COLFO or FOUNZ might publish a version of The Arms Code, firmly based on the law, with FAQs addressing issues which clearly need clarification.

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## Sasquatch

We all feel like doing this to them. But I think persistence is key and to just keep doing what we're doing. Fudd has already had something to say at the meetings so far and will continue too. We need to be there and help re-educate them. Well done to the guys that spoke up and posted your comments on here.

----------


## Sasquatch

> @marky123
> 
> COLFO or FOUNZ might publish a version of The Arms Code, firmly based on the law, with FAQs addressing issues which clearly need clarification.


Is there any conformation for that  @Cordite? 

  @Jexla can you chime in on this? ^^^

----------


## muzza

I dont expect Colfo to do anything visible - they are pretty poor at responding at any level below select committee , so dont see them even making a statement about this process. Anyone who belongs to a shooting club or group with compulsory Colfo capitation fee should seriously ask what you get for your money.
FOUNZ and Kiwi Gun Blog are better at informing social media users , and social media is the thing that scares the Police more than other group

----------


## Feral

> @marky123
> 
> COLFO or FOUNZ might publish a version of The Arms Code, firmly based on the law, with FAQs addressing issues which clearly need clarification.


The arms code is a police document to assist them in administering the arms act. I can't see any good out of any organisation making up their own version and circulating it.

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## Feral

> ...social media is the thing that scares the Police more than other group


Ha, doubtful at best.

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## Cordite

> Is there any conformation for that  @Cordite? 
> 
>   @Jexla can you chime in on this? ^^^


  @Sasquatch

Sorry, no, I was making a suggestion, not reporting on something being done by COLFO.

  @Feral

I think the point of my suggestion is to take up police's admission that there are police "training issues" in matters relating to the Arms Act.  It is well within COLFOs ability to publish an authoritative plain explanation of the Arms Act, what it says... and what it does not say, with FAQs and practical examples.  And have the booklet endorsed by a couple of barristers.  Every AO and Application Assessor would get hold of a copy, I guarantee you.

I'd be happy to illustrate it with some line drawings, a bit better than the one below...



(-:

----------


## Feral

Clarity of communication and quality of training were two topics discussed at the Palmerston North firearms discussion. Commonality and quality of AO training was seen by the 12 or so people who attended as being necessary to avoid the different interpretations of legislation. Ie the Police needs to be accurate and within the law. The communication bit was in relation to things like the Arms Code using the right language (must, should, may etc) to take away any ambiguity and the need for differing interpretations.

An example of this was Mike McIlraith discussing the limits of unattended vs attended when leaving a firearm in a vehicle (say at a gas station during a journey). Like everything though it would end up being tested in a court of law.

----------


## striker

Had the Rotorua meeting today, I didnt count but there but someone mentioned there was 32 of us there.
Ill go in to a bit more detail in a bit

----------


## kotuku

shit on it -Im working afternoon shift when the grey meeting is on otherwise would have trundled along and lent an ear lug.

----------


## A330driver

That being said,I (as others) would be interested in how that discussion panned out.....thanks in advance 





> Had the Rotorua meeting today, I didnt count but there but someone mentioned there was 32 of us there.
> Ill go in to a bit more detail in a bit

----------


## Russian 22.

Heres the photos of the minutes from the Auckland meeting. 25 people turned up. Out of 1 million residents or so and how ever many people are licensed.



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## Russian 22.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

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## Russian 22.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

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## outdoorlad

The Christchurch meeting is scheduled for Tuesday 19th June at 4:30-6pm at the ChCh RSA, 74 Armagh st.

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## gonetropo

> The Christchurch meeting is scheduled for Tuesday 19th June at 4:30-6pm at the ChCh RSA, 74 Armagh st.


see you there !

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## R93

> see you there !


There is a few of us going to the Greymouth one on Monday.


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## Backcut

https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...t-with-police/

new arms code is delayed.

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## Jexla

> Is there any conformation for that  @Cordite? 
> 
>   @Jexla can you chime in on this? ^^^


We've talked about this previously, problem is the fine line on giving legal advice vs helping to understand what the Arms Act requires of you.

Also, @Beavis has joined us at FOUNZ, so there's 2 of us lurking around if you have any related questions or comments for us.

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## marky123

Why wouldnt the XO of Pistol NZ go to one of these?

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## Sasquatch

_"We addressed the elephant in the room. How were we to take their discussion of communication and transparency seriously when they flat refused to say what they had asked the Police Minister for when updating the Arms Act.

McIlraith dismissed the rooms concern here with a simple Nope. This would not be discussed."_

Does *this* have anything to do with the delayed Arms Code perhaps?

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## striker

> That being said,I (as others) would be interested in how that discussion panned out.....thanks in advance


It was interesting, seats for 10 people I think.
a few people brought up ideas of required alliances to clubs and learner licences with stand down periods.

permitting and lack of consistency in regards to permitting and security to the law

lack of correct and timely communication and notification of these events

Basically no idea how the system thats coming is actually going to function including choke points of applicant number vs trainers venues and time frames

He had quite a disregard and distaste for ( incorrect information and so called lies) from social media such as KGB and Founz. He didnt appreciate the dig at the tendencies and commonality of the nz police and nz police ass with there media efforts.

admitted the police not truly knowing firearms crime stats etc, wouldn't or couldn't be drawn in to producing numbers or any really meaning full data
Including other than being 20 years behind other government departments in technology and capability, but but running at a yearly deficient of over $5mil 

so over all, putting in place solutions to a perceived problem that they have been told to fix

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## Beavis

It is all well and good being critical of material posted by KBG and FOUNZ, but at least he/they could give some answers or information to counter what we may say. To date, many OIA requests go without a response well beyond the deadline, and are missing anything useful that could give an answer. A lot of data is poorly compiled or not recorded. Their idea of transparency is rubbish as long as they refuse to make public their submission to the last select committee, or their breifing to the incoming police minister.

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## Taff

> It was interesting, seats for 10 people I think.
> a few people brought up ideas of required alliances to clubs and learner licences with stand down periods.
> 
> permitting and lack of consistency in regards to permitting and security to the law
> 
> lack of correct and timely communication and notification of these events
> 
> Basically no idea how the system thats coming is actually going to function including choke points of applicant number vs trainers venues and time frames
> 
> ...


Went last night , all the above same answers, apparently the arms act is not being changed at all, as to the deficient,The licensing system is there for the benefit of society, not the benefit of the holder, so a large proportion of the cost should be covered by the tax payer , not the applicant.

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## Jexla

> Went last night , all the above same answers, apparently the arms act is not being changed at all, as to the deficient,The licensing system is there for the benefit of society, not the benefit of the holder, so a large proportion of the cost should be covered by the tax payer , not the applicant.


That's how I feel too. They claim in their report to the minister that changes need to be made to the arms act for the benefit of society then claim that FAL holders should cover the entire cost of administering these laws as they're the service users!
Zero logic to be found.

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## GDMP

License holders are not the users.....the state is,as its THEIR licensing system....we have no choice but to comply with it if we wish to remain within the law....

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## A330driver

Mate....thanks for the summation and reply......sounds like its the standard cluster fuck we’ve been in for years.Seriously,there are no surprises here,as others have posted,it cant be fair or transparent if your going to hide some of the chess pieces....






> It was interesting, seats for 10 people I think.
> a few people brought up ideas of required alliances to clubs and learner licences with stand down periods.
> 
> permitting and lack of consistency in regards to permitting and security to the law
> 
> lack of correct and timely communication and notification of these events
> 
> Basically no idea how the system thats coming is actually going to function including choke points of applicant number vs trainers venues and time frames
> 
> ...

----------


## Cordite

What withholding of the Police's submission details achieves is to circumvent FAL holders' ability to approach members of parliament and counter with some common sense.

In other words, it is accepted fact that MPs listen to FAL holders.  

So we don't have NZ Police's submissions.  Oh hey, safe to just do a cut and paste from NZP's previous submissions, no?  (-:

If I may add a force multiplier: keep it up with keeping the language and tone polite, especially when it gets difficult to do so.

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## muzza

yes - stay calm , repeat your question if need be , dont accept being fobbed off .

And dont let some numpty monopolise the discussion about he is happy with his little corner of the world and fuck everyone else.There are plenty of them out there....

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## gonetropo

who is going to the christchurch one tuesday ?

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## R93

Just driving to Greymouth for the west coast meeting now. 

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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## muzza

Heres the latest update from the Police website. Interesting for what they omitted to mention - like the general mistrust and why dont they muzzle the Police Association President ...

News and updates | New Zealand Police

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## ebf

> Interesting for what they omitted to mention - like the general mistrust and why dont they muzzle the Police Association President ...


The phrase "flogging a dead horse" comes to mind.

If you expect the NZ Police to "muzzle" the Police Association you are going to be in for a long and fruitless wait...

Try to understand what the 2 organizations are there for, and develop (realistic and workable) strategies for dealing with them...

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## Jexla

> The phrase "flogging a dead horse" comes to mind.
> 
> If you expect the NZ Police to "muzzle" the Police Association you are going to be in for a long and fruitless wait...
> 
> Try to understand what the 2 organizations are there for, and develop (realistic and workable) strategies for dealing with them...


Basically the association say what the police themselves cannot be seen to say.

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## R93

My take on it is at least they are making an effort by engaging with the user groups.

Our meeting had 19 attend. I would say the same old stuff was covered and imo I left thinking at least one person in the police wants to get things right for all involved.

It may take a while but I see things for endorsed firearms users improving regarding timings and paperwork.


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## Jexla

> My take on it is at least they are making an effort by engaging with the user groups.
> 
> Our meeting had 19 attend. I would say the same old stuff was covered and imo I left thinking at least one person in the police wants to get things right for all involved.
> 
> It may take a while but I see things for endorsed firearms users improving regarding timings and paperwork.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


You may be right, however they will continue to increase the number of reasons they use to refuse the applications, which is the REAL issue.
Personally I'd rather an approved application that takes 3 months than a declined one that takes 24 hours, not saying they're direct trade offs, just that the real issues are not being addressed.

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## Beaker

Does COLFO actually do anything?

Just about to renew some subs for the year, and at present they are not getting a cent.....

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## Jexla

> Does COLFO actually do anything?
> 
> Just about to renew some subs for the year, and at present they are not getting a cent.....


Do you read their news letters/follow their facebook page?

That's the best way to see what they're up to. Up to you to decide if that's something you want to financially support or not.

This is their latest news letter: Colfo News Issue - 3 2018

All COLFO news: News

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## Danger Mouse

I stopped a long time ago. Put money towards R lincoln instead.

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## stretch

> Does COLFO actually do anything?
> 
> Just about to renew some subs for the year, and at present they are not getting a cent.....


They have a seat at the FCAF table, and have the ear of politicians more than any other group. http://www.police.govt.nz/about-us/p...advisory-forum

Take a look at the bullet points on that page as to why certain organisations are invited to represent us. 

_Membership of the Forum comprises both Police employees and non-Police employees. The non-Police members were selected for their:

broad skills, knowledge and understanding of firearms and issues/legislation relating to firearms
relevant practical experience and networks within the firearms community
ability to represent a diversity of perspectives within the firearms community
personal attributes and ability to work constructively with, and make a contribution to the Forum
being a representative of an incorporated group (who can represent the views of the group rather than their individual view)._

While FOUNZ, KGB and NSA are more active in the blogging and social media environment (and they do great work), I imagine Police see them as hostile parties, so they don't get a seat at the table.

They're all fighting the same fight, they just go about it in different, complementary ways.

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## Beavis

According to police, we (FOUNZ) are "activists".

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## muzza

Sorry - COLFO are the invisible consumers of capitation fees extorted from you when you want to be a member of many shooter organisations. If they took a visible stand on firearms issues , stood up publicly to that fool from the Police Association , did anything visible to show why they exist then my view might change , but until that happens I will not pay them to "work" on my behalf , at my expense.

Others views may differ here , of course.

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## oraki

Aussie when they had to hand them in. Hope it never happens...

----------


## Rushy

Fuck that is just wrong.

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## Feral

> Sorry - COLFO are the invisible consumers of capitation fees extorted from you when you want to be a member of many shooter organisations. If they took a visible stand on firearms issues , stood up publicly to that fool from the Police Association , did anything visible to show why they exist then my view might change , but until that happens I will not pay them to "work" on my behalf , at my expense.
> 
> Others views may differ here , of course.


Who do you recommend supporting instead and how?

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## muzza

I dont recommend you supporting anyone. You have to make that call , based on whats important to you. If COLFO does it for you then I am happy for you.

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## Feral

> I dont recommend you supporting anyone. You have to make that call , based on whats important to you. If COLFO does it for you then I am happy for you.


Fair enough, personally I like to support a few different organisations, with time and / or money, locally and nationally. I think it's important.

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## gonetropo

was in excess of 100 turn up at the christchurch meeting tonight

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## Feral

> was in excess of 100 turn up at the christchurch meeting tonight


That's pretty cool. It's almost as if word has finally got around... That would be the biggest so far?

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## Pengy

> That's pretty cool. It's almost as if word has finally got around... That would be the biggest so far?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Word must have travelled via the internet, which would still, imho, be a better way to conduct such a survey.

----------


## gonetropo

yep, there was a call of show of hands who thinks cahill is ok. 100% no hands

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## Husky1600

I've just got back from tonights meeting in ChCh. Thought it was a pretty decent meeting, Mike spoke well, appeared to be honestly trying to do something positive, and had a sense of humour. After all the scaremongering from various people and groups, I was quite surprised at how well it went. There were a number of very good points put forward by some eloquent speakers, and they were listened to. We can only hope, but it looks like Mike may be in it for the long haul. And he said on a number of occasions " the Arms Act is not changing" However on a number of occasions he also said "they" are in the process of updating/writing policy, so the devil will be in the detail.

----------


## Cordite

> I've just got back from tonights meeting in ChCh. Thought it was a pretty decent meeting, Mike spoke well, appeared to be honestly trying to do something positive, and had a sense of humour. After all the scaremongering from various people and groups, I was quite surprised at how well it went. There were a number of very good points put forward by some eloquent speakers, and they were listened to. We can only hope, but it looks like Mike may be in it for the long haul. *And he said on a number of occasions " the Arms Act is not changing"* However on a number of occasions he also said "they" are in the process of updating/writing policy, so the devil will be in the detail.


What the... with all respect, last time I checked New Zealand was a democracy, and MP's had all been to school and could read letters.  Just saying.

----------


## Cordite

> Do you read their (COLFO's) news letters/follow their facebook page?
> 
> That's the best way to see what they're up to. Up to you to decide if that's something you want to financially support or not.
> 
> This is their latest news letter: Colfo News Issue - 3 2018
> 
> All COLFO news: News


 @Jexla

Writing style at COLFOs is professional, not too emotional/aggressive (but maybe not super for the age of sound bites).  Thanks for the link.

Problem with some firearm blogs can be rudeness / aggression, which does not sit well with a fit and proper person with access to firearms, and it is not likely to win converts.

On a more implicit level, aggression indicates someone on his/her back foot, that is, the losing side.  And readers (most being sheep) prefer to side with majority opinions, at least when it comes to getting counted.

Humour on the other hand can be deeply persuasive as you have to accept some element of truth in a joke to laugh at it.

----------


## ebf

Cordite, both serve their purposes.

Think of COLFO as the NZ Police and FOUNZ/KGB etc as Police Assoc, saying what COLFO can not be seen to be saying...

COLFO represents organisations and associations. They need to take direction from those organisations, many of those do not want to be seen to be rocking the boat. The exco of COLFO is publicly identified, as opposed to blogs, forums etc which may be one person ranting or have solid support. Richard Lincoln stood up in front of a select committee couple years ago and claimed to represent 250 000 license holders when it was patently clear that he did not have that support(anyone remember his farcical opt-out scheme ?). Politicians are not stupid, they are more likely to listen to reasonable articulate debate rather than ranting.

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## Danger Mouse

Article in the Herald this morning.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12073599

My response to the author.

Good morning,

I am writing to you to point out several falsehoods in this article. I Realise that you are quoting police association president Chris Cahill and that you may not personally have an extensive knowledge of firearms and firearms legislation within New Zealand, but I also feel it* is important to have complete and balanced reporting. NZ firearms license holders have become increasingly frustrated over misleading comments by Mr Cahill over the last 18 months. It needs to be realized that license holders are not the issue wihin New Zelaand.


Mr cahill has repeatedly lied to New Zealand throught the media. For example, hclaims that 55,000 firearms are imported into the country every year. This is a lie. offical information act requests show that the true number is half that. When you consider that there is 250,000 license holders in new zealand, this does not equate to huge number being imported. 


During the firearms select comittee that was establish to investigate how criminals are aquiring firearms, and how to prevent this, the police associations recommendations did not include any actions towards criminals. at all. Crimes with firearms in NZ frequently result in home detention. Why is crime with a deadly item not being punished severly? When questioned why Mr Cahill did not recommend greater sentences being used for firearms crime, he responded along the lines of 'becuase labour government will not do it'. NZ firearms license holders care more about police welfare in regards to firearms than the police association president!


In this article Mr cahill is essentially saying, our data is incomplete therefore firearms crime is a problem. This is completely illogical and would be a fail in statistics 101. The man is running is own anti firearms agenda and his focus of attention is the very people that are obeying the law - liecense holders. 


"Surely a small country that registers its cars, boats, dogs, births, deaths and marriages can co-operate on accounting for lethal weapons – who has them, who has on-sold them, who has lost them or had them stolen." This statement is based on logical fallacies and misleading inuendo. Certain types of firearm in NZ ARE currently registered, and the registry has an alarmingly high rate of innacuracy. It has also never been audited. How can registration be carried out if the current fraction of friearms that are registered be so horribly innaccruate? What does this registration achieve? Criminals will not register their firearms before comitting a crime. police do not even place any priority of thefts of firearms from license holders, with some thefts of firearms being unattended by nz police, and in other instances the 'attendance' being a phone call. 


Currently police do not data match with australia. This has resulted in deported gang members from australia being granted NZ firearms licenses by nz police. They have then gone on to purchase firearms for gangs, and Mr Cahill then attempted to blame law abiding license holders for this situation. This adversial attitude has been detrimental to police/license holder relationships within NZ. 


Surely it would be more effective to enforce* current legislation more effectively and to have meaningful sentences applied to firearms crimes, before demanding change?


The license holders want to work with NZ police, but the misleading statements from people that are seen to represent the nz police such as Mr cahill are a constant source of frustration (yes I am aware that he is not an active member of nz police in his role as police association president).


Please question some of the statements that are being made on this subject, and continue to think critically. Firearms crime in this country is thankfully very low and has been declining for quite some time, despite what you have been told and quoted in this article.


For further infromation to provide balance on the subject, the website 'kiwigunblog' is a source of OIA requests that have been carried out on this subject.


Thanks for your time,

----------


## gonetropo

bloody well said !

----------


## timattalon

I think Cahills use of the term "Hidden Arsenal" clearly shows his intention and perception on firearms. I dont have an "Arsenal" I have a small collection. 

I will also email the herald and Stuart NAsh about the misdirection of the article and Cahills clear acceptance of being able to make statements that are anything but the truth. If they can only achieve 5% accuracy in recording of crime, how in hells name do they expect a register to be any use to them. Even if the made a 200% or even a 1000 percent (ten fold) improvement in accuracy, it would still be unreliable for any practical use.

----------


## gonetropo

> I've just got back from tonights meeting in ChCh. Thought it was a pretty decent meeting, Mike spoke well, appeared to be honestly trying to do something positive, and had a sense of humour. After all the scaremongering from various people and groups, I was quite surprised at how well it went. There were a number of very good points put forward by some eloquent speakers, and they were listened to. We can only hope, but it looks like Mike may be in it for the long haul. And he said on a number of occasions " the Arms Act is not changing" However on a number of occasions he also said "they" are in the process of updating/writing policy, so the devil will be in the detail.


well he did chuckle when i said if his kids took up firearms they would never be able to afford drugs

----------


## rupert

Went to the Christchurch meeting. It was in a small room with chairs for about 30. But the audience was much bigger than the room and extended around the corner and out of the entrance. I was near the back of the large standing crowd. Could hear about 20% of what was said. Don't know about all of the tinnitus/deaf as a post affected hunters there. Obviously, there was expectation of a very few turning up. The most surprising thing was that the room for the meeting was over a pub: made a bit of a joke of the guns and alcohol don't mix element of the rules that we follow.

----------


## muzr257

Went to the Timaru meeting last night - approx. 45-50 attended. Meeting went well. Thought that Mike had the right attitude and seemed personable. Last questioned asked, by me, was "what is his realistic timeframe going to be to implement the changes" 12-24 months was the answer. 
"consistencey" was the biggest issue raised.

----------


## marky123

> I think Cahills use of the term "Hidden Arsenal" clearly shows his intention and perception on firearms. I dont have an "Arsenal" I have a small collection. 
> 
> I will also email the herald and Stuart NAsh about the misdirection of the article and Cahills clear acceptance of being able to make statements that are anything but the truth. If they can only achieve 5% accuracy in recording of crime, how in hells name do they expect a register to be any use to them. Even if the made a 200% or even a 1000 percent (ten fold) improvement in accuracy, it would still be unreliable for any practical use.


Countries have arsenals.

----------


## Beavis

His stats are just straight up fake. He says half a million guns have been imported in 10 years when  it is literally half that.

----------


## striker

Hamilton meeting was very close to 100 people

----------


## Cordite

> I think Cahills use of the term "Hidden Arsenal" clearly shows his intention and perception on firearms. I dont have an "Arsenal" I have a small collection. 
> 
> I will also email the herald and Stuart NAsh about the misdirection of the article and Cahills clear acceptance of being able to make statements that are anything but the truth. If they can only achieve 5% accuracy in recording of crime, how in hells name do they expect a register to be any use to them. Even if the made a 200% or even a 1000 percent (ten fold) improvement in accuracy, it would still be unreliable for any practical use.


Mr Cahill should be working for Shanghai police or something similar, he would appear to be quite at home in such a role.  Non-democracies require disarming of all citizens as the totalitarian state fears the populace and desperately needs to feel itself in full control.  That's why totalitarians don't like the thought of police being outgunned by lawful firearms owners.  Just look North: no firearms allowed for the Chinese, even airguns!

The NZ democratic state on the other hand does not fear NZ citizens, armed or otherwise - for the simple reason that we get to overthrow our government every few years or more, without bloodshed!

----------


## gonetropo

yep, there was a call of show of hands who thinks cahill is ok. 100% no hands

----------


## Husky1600

I've just got back from tonights meeting in ChCh. Thought it was a pretty decent meeting, Mike spoke well, appeared to be honestly trying to do something positive, and had a sense of humour. After all the scaremongering from various people and groups, I was quite surprised at how well it went. There were a number of very good points put forward by some eloquent speakers, and they were listened to. We can only hope, but it looks like Mike may be in it for the long haul. And he said on a number of occasions " the Arms Act is not changing" However on a number of occasions he also said "they" are in the process of updating/writing policy, so the devil will be in the detail.

----------


## Cordite

> I've just got back from tonights meeting in ChCh. Thought it was a pretty decent meeting, Mike spoke well, appeared to be honestly trying to do something positive, and had a sense of humour. After all the scaremongering from various people and groups, I was quite surprised at how well it went. There were a number of very good points put forward by some eloquent speakers, and they were listened to. We can only hope, but it looks like Mike may be in it for the long haul. *And he said on a number of occasions " the Arms Act is not changing"* However on a number of occasions he also said "they" are in the process of updating/writing policy, so the devil will be in the detail.


What the... with all respect, last time I checked New Zealand was a democracy, and MP's had all been to school and could read letters.  Just saying.

----------


## Cordite

> Do you read their (COLFO's) news letters/follow their facebook page?
> 
> That's the best way to see what they're up to. Up to you to decide if that's something you want to financially support or not.
> 
> This is their latest news letter: Colfo News Issue - 3 2018
> 
> All COLFO news: News


 @Jexla

Writing style at COLFOs is professional, not too emotional/aggressive (but maybe not super for the age of sound bites).  Thanks for the link.

Problem with some firearm blogs can be rudeness / aggression, which does not sit well with a fit and proper person with access to firearms, and it is not likely to win converts.

On a more implicit level, aggression indicates someone on his/her back foot, that is, the losing side.  And readers (most being sheep) prefer to side with majority opinions, at least when it comes to getting counted.

Humour on the other hand can be deeply persuasive as you have to accept some element of truth in a joke to laugh at it.

----------


## ebf

Cordite, both serve their purposes.

Think of COLFO as the NZ Police and FOUNZ/KGB etc as Police Assoc, saying what COLFO can not be seen to be saying...

COLFO represents organisations and associations. They need to take direction from those organisations, many of those do not want to be seen to be rocking the boat. The exco of COLFO is publicly identified, as opposed to blogs, forums etc which may be one person ranting or have solid support. Richard Lincoln stood up in front of a select committee couple years ago and claimed to represent 250 000 license holders when it was patently clear that he did not have that support(anyone remember his farcical opt-out scheme ?). Politicians are not stupid, they are more likely to listen to reasonable articulate debate rather than ranting.

----------


## Danger Mouse

Article in the Herald this morning.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12073599

My response to the author.

Good morning,

I am writing to you to point out several falsehoods in this article. I Realise that you are quoting police association president Chris Cahill and that you may not personally have an extensive knowledge of firearms and firearms legislation within New Zealand, but I also feel it* is important to have complete and balanced reporting. NZ firearms license holders have become increasingly frustrated over misleading comments by Mr Cahill over the last 18 months. It needs to be realized that license holders are not the issue wihin New Zelaand.


Mr cahill has repeatedly lied to New Zealand throught the media. For example, hclaims that 55,000 firearms are imported into the country every year. This is a lie. offical information act requests show that the true number is half that. When you consider that there is 250,000 license holders in new zealand, this does not equate to huge number being imported. 


During the firearms select comittee that was establish to investigate how criminals are aquiring firearms, and how to prevent this, the police associations recommendations did not include any actions towards criminals. at all. Crimes with firearms in NZ frequently result in home detention. Why is crime with a deadly item not being punished severly? When questioned why Mr Cahill did not recommend greater sentences being used for firearms crime, he responded along the lines of 'becuase labour government will not do it'. NZ firearms license holders care more about police welfare in regards to firearms than the police association president!


In this article Mr cahill is essentially saying, our data is incomplete therefore firearms crime is a problem. This is completely illogical and would be a fail in statistics 101. The man is running is own anti firearms agenda and his focus of attention is the very people that are obeying the law - liecense holders. 


"Surely a small country that registers its cars, boats, dogs, births, deaths and marriages can co-operate on accounting for lethal weapons – who has them, who has on-sold them, who has lost them or had them stolen." This statement is based on logical fallacies and misleading inuendo. Certain types of firearm in NZ ARE currently registered, and the registry has an alarmingly high rate of innacuracy. It has also never been audited. How can registration be carried out if the current fraction of friearms that are registered be so horribly innaccruate? What does this registration achieve? Criminals will not register their firearms before comitting a crime. police do not even place any priority of thefts of firearms from license holders, with some thefts of firearms being unattended by nz police, and in other instances the 'attendance' being a phone call. 


Currently police do not data match with australia. This has resulted in deported gang members from australia being granted NZ firearms licenses by nz police. They have then gone on to purchase firearms for gangs, and Mr Cahill then attempted to blame law abiding license holders for this situation. This adversial attitude has been detrimental to police/license holder relationships within NZ. 


Surely it would be more effective to enforce* current legislation more effectively and to have meaningful sentences applied to firearms crimes, before demanding change?


The license holders want to work with NZ police, but the misleading statements from people that are seen to represent the nz police such as Mr cahill are a constant source of frustration (yes I am aware that he is not an active member of nz police in his role as police association president).


Please question some of the statements that are being made on this subject, and continue to think critically. Firearms crime in this country is thankfully very low and has been declining for quite some time, despite what you have been told and quoted in this article.


For further infromation to provide balance on the subject, the website 'kiwigunblog' is a source of OIA requests that have been carried out on this subject.


Thanks for your time,

----------


## gonetropo

bloody well said !

----------


## timattalon

I think Cahills use of the term "Hidden Arsenal" clearly shows his intention and perception on firearms. I dont have an "Arsenal" I have a small collection. 

I will also email the herald and Stuart NAsh about the misdirection of the article and Cahills clear acceptance of being able to make statements that are anything but the truth. If they can only achieve 5% accuracy in recording of crime, how in hells name do they expect a register to be any use to them. Even if the made a 200% or even a 1000 percent (ten fold) improvement in accuracy, it would still be unreliable for any practical use.

----------


## gonetropo

> I've just got back from tonights meeting in ChCh. Thought it was a pretty decent meeting, Mike spoke well, appeared to be honestly trying to do something positive, and had a sense of humour. After all the scaremongering from various people and groups, I was quite surprised at how well it went. There were a number of very good points put forward by some eloquent speakers, and they were listened to. We can only hope, but it looks like Mike may be in it for the long haul. And he said on a number of occasions " the Arms Act is not changing" However on a number of occasions he also said "they" are in the process of updating/writing policy, so the devil will be in the detail.


well he did chuckle when i said if his kids took up firearms they would never be able to afford drugs

----------


## rupert

Went to the Christchurch meeting. It was in a small room with chairs for about 30. But the audience was much bigger than the room and extended around the corner and out of the entrance. I was near the back of the large standing crowd. Could hear about 20% of what was said. Don't know about all of the tinnitus/deaf as a post affected hunters there. Obviously, there was expectation of a very few turning up. The most surprising thing was that the room for the meeting was over a pub: made a bit of a joke of the guns and alcohol don't mix element of the rules that we follow.

----------


## muzr257

Went to the Timaru meeting last night - approx. 45-50 attended. Meeting went well. Thought that Mike had the right attitude and seemed personable. Last questioned asked, by me, was "what is his realistic timeframe going to be to implement the changes" 12-24 months was the answer. 
"consistencey" was the biggest issue raised.

----------


## marky123

> I think Cahills use of the term "Hidden Arsenal" clearly shows his intention and perception on firearms. I dont have an "Arsenal" I have a small collection. 
> 
> I will also email the herald and Stuart NAsh about the misdirection of the article and Cahills clear acceptance of being able to make statements that are anything but the truth. If they can only achieve 5% accuracy in recording of crime, how in hells name do they expect a register to be any use to them. Even if the made a 200% or even a 1000 percent (ten fold) improvement in accuracy, it would still be unreliable for any practical use.


Countries have arsenals.

----------


## Beavis

His stats are just straight up fake. He says half a million guns have been imported in 10 years when  it is literally half that.

----------


## striker

Hamilton meeting was very close to 100 people

----------


## Cordite

> I think Cahills use of the term "Hidden Arsenal" clearly shows his intention and perception on firearms. I dont have an "Arsenal" I have a small collection. 
> 
> I will also email the herald and Stuart NAsh about the misdirection of the article and Cahills clear acceptance of being able to make statements that are anything but the truth. If they can only achieve 5% accuracy in recording of crime, how in hells name do they expect a register to be any use to them. Even if the made a 200% or even a 1000 percent (ten fold) improvement in accuracy, it would still be unreliable for any practical use.


Mr Cahill should be working for Shanghai police or something similar, he would appear to be quite at home in such a role.  Non-democracies require disarming of all citizens as the totalitarian state fears the populace and desperately needs to feel itself in full control.  That's why totalitarians don't like the thought of police being outgunned by lawful firearms owners.  Just look North: no firearms allowed for the Chinese, even airguns!

The NZ democratic state on the other hand does not fear NZ citizens, armed or otherwise - for the simple reason that we get to overthrow our government every few years or more, without bloodshed!

----------

