# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  Seriously underrated 6.5x47 Lapua

## Wingman

I have been having a blast shooting Creedmoor for the last year or so and have tested the crap out of that little cartridge to the point I feel it was time to move to something else to keep me entertained. 

I have been thrashing my Desert Tech with a new .308 barrel I made up for it and its been fun shooting the .308 again, I hadnt shot it in years and it still hasnt lost its hard hitting charm. I have shifted to shooting the heavier 175gr TMKs  from 150 and 168gr in previous rifles Ive owned and I have to say Ill never look back. Getting 2610fps from a 21" Trueflight match 1-10" twist I chambered with a 95 Palma match reamer it shoots some of the smallest sub .5" groups Ive ever shot in .308win. 







 @Flyblown fire forming some new Lapua .308 Palma Match brass for me on the 100y range






While it is fun and does everything I ask of it, it is a cal I first started shooting with, hunting with and competing with, its predictably boring and feels like a very old relationship. 
I worked up a ridiculously accurate load in about 20 mins and 15 shots in total with a couple of different powders 8208 and 2208 (BM 8208 was new to me in this cal) which just confirmed just how much time Ive spent with this cal before the 6.5 bug bit and challenged everything I thought I knew about reloading and ballistics.

So I wanted to make a new barrel that will become my "go to work horse".  
When I moved from .308win to 6.5 I was tossing up between 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5x47 Lapua for quite a while but after lots of online research (my first mistake) and seeing there was a shortage of Redding 6.5x47 dies at the time, in fact the the deciding strike was that none of the usual exporters in the states had them in stock, I went with Creedmoor by default. 

Some of you followed my Creedmoor journey but to cut a long story short,  I still really wanted to build a X47 Lapua. 
So.. With a big thanks to @graeme for retiring from F class shooting this year and selling me his 6.5X47 Trueflite match barrel and bucket of Lapua brass for up cycling to fit my Desert Tech.
It was a low use 30" long 1-1/4"  1-8" twist that had the first 6" turned to a step-down for the target stock mounting block which had to be cut off to use the full dia with the clamping system of the desert tech. this gave me 24" to work with which in x47 Lapua standards is quite short but I knew what I could get out of a 20" Creedmoor so 24" was definitely right where I wanted to be for this project. 

Here's the truck axle along side my 21" .308 barrel







Got to work on it, cut the rear 6" off and had a heap of meet taken off to match the factory Desert Tech profile.









I re-threaded it for the DTA barrel extension nut,threaded it for a suppressor and chambered it with one of Dave Mansons match reamers before dropping it off to @DPT for @Friwi to work his lightening magic cutting some flutes in it for me. Looks great mate, thanks again.







The growing 6.5 Family: .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x47 Lapua and 6.5 Grendel 



Load development to come.

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## Tussock

Easy to under rate perfection :Grin:  Starting to build my new one now on another Sako 75.

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## quadhunter260

Ill be going 6.5x47 once 260 barrel on my abolt is shagged i think fine little round it appears

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## Wingman

> Ill be going 6.5x47 once 260 barrel on my abolt is shagged i think fine little round it appears


A very easy mod to just re-chamber the existing barrel as long as the throat and bore is in good condition, the 6.5x47 is a straighter wall than the .260 and has a longer neck and 30 deg shoulder so will clean up your .260 chamber with only about 3.5mm trimmed off the thread and pushed forward on the threads shoulder. 

I have never pushed my .260s to their limits but by design they do best with higher charges of slow burning powders like 2213SC and longer 26" barrels. The shorter powder column 6.5x47 Lapua matches it and over takes it without even trying with a lot less powder and much shorter barrels. 
My current x47 load uses 3gr less of the same powder as my hot end Creedmoor load did using the same projectile and gets 500fps+ more than the Creedmoor without any high pressure signs. It is the pinnacle of efficiency with 123gr to 140gr bullets in this line up of 6.5 cartridges.

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## Micky Duck

ok I will ask a dumb question here....what happens if you do that same/similar alteration to a swede???? sharpen up the shoulder angle and straighten out the walls... so a 6.5x55mm imp

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## Ryan_Songhurst

Whilst that rifle is very cool is it not a pain in the ass to shoot repeated rounds? Seems you would have to move away from the scope/take your elbow off the ground every time you work the bolt? Just curious.. I keep coming back to this thread to look at it haha

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## Wingman

Ive never owned a 6.5x55AI and personally not a fan of long actions but a few F class shooters run that cal. There is one for sale on trademe now. It is much like the 260rem and 260 AI.. likes slow powders and long barrels. The .260 has the edge IMO as it has better small rifle primer match brass available so can cope with higher pressure loads without burning out brass/primer pockets.
Take a look at 6.5x55 in any reloading manual and you will see its max velocities come from slow powders and they are still nothing amazing.

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## 257weatherby

> Ive never owned a 6.5x55AI and personally not a fan of long actions but a few F class shooters run that cal. There is one for sale on trademe now. It is much like the 260rem and 260 AI.. likes slow powders and long barrels. The .260 has the edge IMO as it has better small rifle primer match brass available so can cope with higher pressure loads without burning out brass/primer pockets.
> Take a look at 6.5x55 in any reloading manual and you will see its max velocities come from slow powders and they are still nothing amazing.


6.5x55 is hamstrung in all the manuals and factory loaders because of all the old actions that could shit themselves with a proper load, loaded hard in a modern action the  Swede has legs that would astonish you as is breezes past the tiddler 6.5 cartridges  :Psmiley:

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## Wingman

> 6.5x55 is hamstrung in all the manuals and factory loaders because of all the old actions that could shit themselves with a proper load, loaded hard in a modern action the  Swede has legs that would astonish you as is breezes past the tiddler 6.5 cartridges


Ive heard that story a lot but yet to see any truth in the theory. While it was only one rifle, I did some load development for a mates x55 with a 24" barrel and it showed pressure signs consistent with loading manual data.

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## Wingman

> Whilst that rifle is very cool is it not a pain in the ass to shoot repeated rounds? Seems you would have to move away from the scope/take your elbow off the ground every time you work the bolt? Just curious.. I keep coming back to this thread to look at it haha


Nah it operates just like any other bolt action once you re used to it and you dont need to lift your head or elbow.. I have used bullpups for years and prefer them so a std rifle feels more foreign to me.. I often go looking for the bolt too far back :Wtfsmilie: 

 Have a quick search on youtube to see them in action. 
I will have it in the field this week for hopefully some soft target tests and plan to do some video work so will make a point to demonstrate this. 

Heres a newbie behind one being about as clumsy as any newbie gets..

https://youtu.be/GTKrPB6u1UM

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## Tussock

> Ive heard that story a lot but yet to see any truth in the theory. I did some load development for a mates x55 with a 24" barrel and it showed pressure signs consistent with loading manual data.


Which powder?

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## Tahr

> Ive heard that story a lot but yet to see any truth in the theory. While it was only one rifle, I did some load development for a mates x55 with a 24" barrel and it showed pressure signs consistent with loading manual data.


My 6.5x55 has a 21.5" barrel and with 140 Amax and N560 consistently chronos at 2840. So I guess it is rifle dependent. The first 6.5x47 I recall was @gimp 's, I think on a Sako75. He shot all sorts of stuff with it. Hell, the man himself might even come on and tell us about it.

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## gimp

It's fine get a 6.5CM instead it makes more sense now

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## Tussock

The velocity you get from the TINY 6.5x47L cartridge from a short barrel is extraordinary. Mine would put one round inside a 1cm dot without touching the edges, from a cold barrel every day. I did it for a few weeks before I got bored of it. Back when my range was behind the house I would walk up, fire one round, walk home. My only problem with my 2209 load was velocity spread, which was a bit of a non-issue as I never shot strings. 

Lapua put serious thought into the round and it shows.

Shot a lot of rabbits at over 400m with that rifle and deer and Tahr to 550m. I would not have shot the 550m Tahr but I thought it was one I shot at 400m that was wounded, so I ended up with two. 

My new one will also be on a Sako 75 but this time a sporter weight. I bought a barrel from Gimp because he ordered the wrong contour and ended up with a semi varmint barrel, sort of. Once my pretty 75 laminate channel was cut for it I was stuck with it. Made the rifle heavy and un-balanced but man did it shoot. I used to sight in in two rounds then knock all the drawing pins out of the paper. I cut that barrel from 26" to 20" with no loss of velocity. 

2810ft/sec with 140 Amax over 2209/Federal small rifle magnum primers. 

This one will get a 20" barrel in the original factory contour and a DPT muzzle forward can. 

I still had 6kg of 2209 and thousands of magnum primers till last week when I brought my gear home and my wife helped me unload. We were in a hurry and my 2209 ended up sitting inside a car next to a window and baked like a potato :Psmiley: . I assume its cactus. Was hot to the touch and stunk to high heaven. 

Anyone want 6kg of ADI22something? :Grin:

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## Tussock

> It's fine get a 6.5CM instead it makes more sense now


I thought you gave up shooting?

Why does more barrel for the same velocity make more sense? Are are you framing this within your own preferences? We have known you a while and which ever way your preferences are swinging, this is the advice you give, and these preferences are prone to extreme reversals.

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## Flyblown

> Whilst that rifle is very cool is it not a pain in the ass to shoot repeated rounds? Seems you would have to move away from the scope/take your elbow off the ground every time you work the bolt? Just curious.. I keep coming back to this thread to look at it haha


I found it very awkward to be honest, the bullpup design, having only over shot them on the odd occasional previously, like years ago. Once?  Hard to remember. But gut feel is that it is like anything else, you would quickly get used to it... e.g. I went from a rear drive Beemer track day car to a front drive Golf and I truly hated that at first, but got used to it soon enough, I went from a old early 70s British motorcross bike with the gears on the left to a jap bike with gears on the right... that certainly took some getting used to (highly un-entertaining).  Don't think it would be any different with a different configuration rifle.

What I found most difficult with the DTA was recoil control.  The different configuration meant that I was putting too much pressure in the wrong places and the front end was leaping around a bit.  I'm used to proper forend control but this rifle doesn't really have anywhere to hang onto that felt "right".  Again just a question of getting used to it. I managed an inch group after a couple of "sighters" which didn't go particularly well, whereas Wingman was shooting half that and looks so much more comfortable on the rifle, and he was shooting at least twice as fast as me. So really just a question of familiarity and practice I think. I really liked the rear mono pod, that was cool.  I'd be pretty confident that once I sort my shit out with position and control I'd be shooting that comfortably & reliably sub MOA in the field without bother.

It is still hard to get my head around the fact that such a short overall package has a 21 inch barrel and suppressor.  It's not particularly light but it is super portable, and very very accurate, up there with the most accurate rifles I have ever handled.  What you must remember is that as the photos above show, the shooting position is a pretty rough, sloping, pugged up dairy paddock, this isn't a benchrest shooting, so factor that in when you look at those sub half inch groups...

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## Wingman

> My 6.5x55 has a 21.5" barrel and with 140 Amax and N560 consistently chronos at 2840. So I guess it is rifle dependent. The first 6.5x47 I recall was @gimp 's, I think on a Sako75. He shot all sorts of stuff with it. Hell, the man himself might even come on and tell us about it.


The one I set up was tested with 2209 and 2213sc and maxed out at about 2750 from memory due to sticky bolt lifts. 

My 20" creedmoor ran 2900fps with 139gr lapua scenrs with RL16 and I can tell you that this 6.5x47 eats that for breakfast. 
I think with the right powder it could improve even more on my current loads.

I tested 2209 in it last week and it is fine for lighter accurate loads but you cant get good speed and spreads from it. Bm 8208 and 2208 works great with the lighter 123gr bullets but the RL16 and the 130 to 140gr bullets are next level fast and accurate!

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## Tussock

> I found it very awkward to be honest, the bullpup design, having only over shot them on the odd occasional previously, like years ago. Once?  Hard to remember. But gut feel is that it is like anything else, you would quickly get used to it... e.g. I went from a rear drive Beemer track day car to a front drive Golf and I truly hated that at first, but got used to it soon enough, I went from a old early 70s British motorcross bike with the gears on the left to a jap bike with gears on the right... that certainly took some getting used to (highly un-entertaining).  Don't think it would be any different with a different configuration rifle.
> 
> What I found most difficult with the DTA was recoil control.  The different configuration meant that I was putting too much pressure in the wrong places and the front end was leaping around a bit.  I'm used to proper forend control but this rifle doesn't really have anywhere to hang onto that felt "right".  Again just a question of getting used to it. I managed an inch group after a couple of "sighters" which didn't go particularly well, whereas Wingman was shooting half that and looks so much more comfortable on the rifle, and he was shooting at least twice as fast as me. So really just a question of familiarity and practice I think. I really liked the rear mono pod, that was cool.  I'd be pretty confident that once I sort my shit out with position and control I'd be shooting that comfortably & reliably sub MOA in the field without bother.
> 
> It is still hard to get my head around the fact that such a short overall package has a 21 inch barrel and suppressor.  It's not particularly light but it is super portable, and very very accurate, up there with the most accurate rifles I have ever handled.  What you must remember is that as the photos above show, the shooting position is a pretty rough, sloping, pugged up dairy paddock, this isn't a benchrest shooting, so factor that in when you look at those sub half inch groups...


I have heard "forend control" a few times on here lately. What do you mean by proper forend control?

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## Tussock

> The one I set up was tested with 2209 and 2213sc and maxed out at about 2750 from memory due to sticky bolt lifts. 
> 
> My 20" creedmoor ran 2900fps with 139gr lapua scenrs with RL16 and I can tell you that this 6.5x47 eats that for breakfast. 
> I think with the right powder it could improve even more on my current loads.
> 
> I tested 2209 in it last week and it is fine for lighter accurate loads but you cant get good speed and spreads from it. Bm 8208 and 2208 works great with the lighter 123gr bullets but the RL16 and the 130 to 140gr bullets are next level fast and accurate!


This is why I asked what powder. N560 for >2800 with 140s in x55

RL16 is your pick for 6.5x47? This may be why the gods incinerated my 2209 stockpile. Sounds like your RL16 load leaves my old 2209 load for dead and solves the spread problem.

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## Wingman

> This is why I asked what powder. N560 for >2800 with 140s in x55
> 
> RL16 is your pick for 6.5x47? This may be why the gods incinerated my 2209 stockpile. Sounds like your RL16 load leaves my old 2209 load for dead and solves the spread problem.


Interesting.. Ive never ventured into that powder. 

Yes RL16 has proven itself so far and I have 200 rounds loaded for long range trials this week. I have 5 shot strings down to sub 5fps max spreads and will max out on velocity at about 3080fps with 130gr TMKs with no pressure signs like the 2209 shows at about 42gr. 
The biggest problem with RL16 is its limited by its bulk in the small case. A powder of the same burn rate of RL16 but of smaller granules like 2208 or 2209 would probably exceed 3200fps.. I wonder is such a powder exists?   
RL16 is also quite dirty leaving barrels black and sooty but I read if you run it hotter it will clean up.

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## Kiwi Greg

6.5 x 47 everyday now for me over the Creedmoor & I've built a few of each now.

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....7-lapua-43552/

The range even had green grass then...

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....7-lapua-45237/

It lacks the outright grunt & velocity of its bigger 6.5 sisters, 6.5 CM, 260, 6.5 x 55 & 6.5-284 but is more inherently accurate in my experience  :Cool:

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## gimp

> I thought you gave up shooting?
> 
> Why does more barrel for the same velocity make more sense? Are are you framing this within your own preferences? We have known you a while and which ever way your preferences are swinging, this is the advice you give, and these preferences are prone to extreme reversals.


What I've given up is arguing on forums

aside from that my preferences haven't significantly changed in over a decade (and I don't own a 6.5CM but think it makes the most sense if buying a new 6.5 due availability of everything & essentially same performance unless you like splitting hairs)

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## Wingman

I have no doubt we could spend some time with you behind it this week @Flyblown and you will easily cut those groups in half. The x47 is much softer to shoot than the .308 is too. The .308 does jump around a bit when on the bipod. Ive never shot prone with a hand on the fore end so that is very foreign to me. I feel more control from holding the rear of the stock and apply downward and rearward pressure into your shoulder. Let the muzzle bounce.. as long as it bounces the same each time.. 
Yeah that paddocks 100y line is far from a comfortable shooting position but I am well used to shooting in less than stellar conditions and positions.. @Friwi may recall a very wet and muddy nationals day at Whatawhata 1000 yard range where my team were shooting off bipods rolling in the mud and sheep shit without mats like pigs while the old boys watched on and took the piss..  :Grin: 

It seems to be a bit of a theme for me.. the last time I took a mate goat shooting, I was getting pecked by a bunch of chickens as I was laying prone and sending lead out to 200 yards.. while it was very entertaining for him it was mildly off putting for my concentration levels.. lol. @Mintie do you still have that vid?  
Id probably shoot like crap in nice bench rest conditions.. lol.

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## Sidney

plenty of people ran around 2900 in 6.5x55 with 140's.  22" barrels.  I did...  my 6.5x55AI ran 3050 and up to 3200 before pressure 24" barrel.. it was probably an exception to the average result in that version..

its no theory that loading manuals ran low pressure loads for 6.5x55... it was standard practice for years particularly in the time that modern rifles were not being chambered in 6.5x55.  I would suggest that a lack of personal knowledge about stuff doesn't make it a theory.

I have run 6.5x47s and they tend to be 50fps-100fps light on the average modern 6.5x55... and well short of my AI version..

Small efficient modern cases get more bang for your buck not more bang in total...

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## Flyblown

> I have heard "forend control" a few times on here lately. What do you mean by proper forend control?


Exactly what it sounds like, controlling the forend, by holding it.

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## Tussock

> What I've given up is arguing on forums
> 
> aside from that my preferences haven't significantly changed in over a decade (and I don't own a 6.5CM but think it makes the most sense if buying a new 6.5 due availability of everything & essentially same performance unless you like splitting hairs)


I'm not arguing with you, but once apon a time you were the authority on how to split a hair. 

"It's fine get a 6.5CM instead it makes more sense now" is an argument, so what you really mean is you have stopped discussing things on forums.

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## gimp

I stopped making arguments until someone tagged me in this thread would be accurate

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## Tussock

> I have no doubt we could spend some time with you behind it this week @Flyblown and you will easily cut those groups in half. The x47 is much softer to shoot than the .308 is too. The .308 does jump around a bit when on the bipod. Ive never shot prone with a hand on the fore end so that is very foreign to me. I feel more control from holding the rear of the stock and apply downward and rearward pressure into your shoulder. Let the muzzle bounce.. as long as it bounces the same each time.. 
> 
> .


This is why I asked. I too shoot as you describe and just let the muzzle do its thing.

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## Tussock

> I stopped making arguments until someone tagged me in this thread would be accurate


You did pioneer 6.5x47L as a hunting round in this country. Go on, split a hair or two for old times sake. There is some good knowledge in there somewhere. Is there a zipper somewhere on your gimp suit that is stuck?

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## gimp

You can buy a factory rifle from almost any brand chambered in 6.5CM with a sensible twist rate, and a large selection of factory ammo with >.6g1 bc bullets at good speeds. To the handloader the difference is purely academic in terms of results for actually shooting things.

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## gimp

Hairs split I'm done

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## Flyblown

> This is why I asked. I too shoot as you describe and just let the muzzle do its thing.


Most people these days shoot prone/bipod with the non-trigger hand tucked in under the buttstock. And all power to them. I learnt to shoot prone a long time ago with no bipod, supporting the air rifle or .22 with my left hand, then the same with centrefires. And no amount of anything can get me to change that now, irrespective of what kind of rest is up front. 

Interestingly my wife who is army trained, also controls the forend with her left hand, for exactly the same reason, most of the training was done without a forend rest, especially with the R4.  Now she tells me this evening that when using the 7.62 R1 (FN-FAL) with the bipod, the taught position was still left hand on the rifle forend, which obviously is at odds with the US Military for example. 

Just a simple case of old habits die very hard, when the old habit doesn't appear to hinder you in anyway then why change?

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## Tussock

> To the handloader the difference is purely academic


This was the topic.

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## Wingman

> plenty of people ran around 2900 in 6.5x55 with 140's.  22" barrels.  I did...  my 6.5x55AI ran 3050 and up to 3200 before pressure 24" barrel.. it was probably an exception to the average result in that version..
> 
> its no theory that loading manuals ran low pressure loads for 6.5x55... it was standard practice for years particularly in the time that modern rifles were not being chambered in 6.5x55.  I would suggest that a lack of personal knowledge about stuff doesn't make it a theory.
> 
> I have run 6.5x47s and they tend to be 50fps-100fps light on the average modern 6.5x55... and well short of my AI version..
> 
> Small efficient modern cases get more bang for your buck not more bang in total...


Yes I agree with you on most of that and I can only speak from experience of one rifle.. 
You would think a case like x55 would leave a much smaller case like x47 well in its dust but this is simply not the case. The little x47 holds its own up against those larger powder wasters for sure especially once barrel length is reduced.  
Lack of personal knowledge for me most definatly makes it theory in my books until Ive tried something for myself its all just theory.  If I didnt operate with that school of thought Id be loading mild 2209 loads like every other sheep out there and be shooting 2600 to 2700fps.
Im confident that with the right powder if it exists yet the x47 could actually run even faster. 

My Creedmoor maxed out velocity due to pressure with 44.5gr of RL16 but the x47 shows no pressure signs with a compressed load of 42gr RL16 yet is already 150fps faster than that creed load. 
Its an interesting cartridge for sure and I have no doubt it ill be my daily shooter. I have more info on it by next weekend and will share some load development with several other powders and bullets too.

I had no intention of this thread becoming a 6.5 pissing match but will definatly aim to illustrate just how efficient this little case is when compared to its closer matched short action non magnum counterparts.

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## Flyblown

Hey! Who are you calling a sheep?!

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## Wingman

If the wooly hat fits..  :Grin:

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## Sidney

> Yes I agree with you on most of that and I can only speak from experience of one rifle.. 
> You would think a case like x55 would leave a much smaller case like x47 well in its dust but this is simply not the case. The little x47 holds its own up against those larger powder wasters for sure especially once barrel length is reduced.  
> Lack of personal knowledge for me most definatly makes it theory in my books until Ive tried something for myself its all just theory.  If I didnt operate with that school of thought Id be loading mild 2209 loads like every other sheep out there and be shooting 2600 to 2700fps.
> Im confident that with the right powder if it exists yet the x47 could actually run even faster. 
> 
> My Creedmoor maxed out velocity due to pressure with 44.5gr of RL16 but the x47 shows no pressure signs with a compressed load of 42gr RL16 yet is already 150fps faster than that creed load. 
> Its an interesting cartridge for sure and I have no doubt it ill be my daily shooter. I have more info on it by next weekend and will share some load development with several other powders and bullets too.
> 
> I had no intention of this thread becoming a 6.5 pissing match but will definatly aim to illustrate just how efficient this little case is when compared to its closer matched short action non magnum counterparts.


Absolutely - nor I and there isn't a 6.5 that I don't like well, maybe the 264WM is well overblown and I wouldn't bother.  I just wanted to contribute to your sample size - would hate to have you base your personal theory on one seemingly aberrant 55 -  :Grin: 

I'm running my 6.5SLR at 2750 with 130s out of a 16" barrel and building a 22" 6.5SAUM that will operate at 3100-3200 for the same pills

The 6.5 is a cool calibre - its ballistically efficient at a projectile weight range of 120-140gr which is perfect for most of our hunting, whilst at the same time being light enough to allow for small powder cases and low recoil.

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## Cordite

> 6.5x55 is hamstrung in all the manuals and factory loaders because of all the old actions that could shit themselves with a proper load, loaded hard in a modern action the  Swede has legs that would astonish you as is breezes past the tiddler 6.5 cartridges


Think it has something to do with the Norwegian Krag actions having single recoil lugs, or something to that effect.  Load to lowest common safe denominator.

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## Micky Duck

wingman.....you would love my buddies rifle...drop block Canadian action with superb walnut stock,chambered in  .204 ruger necked up to 6.5mm..... he has two of them,the kimber he can really crank it up to silly levels.... and then he goes n buys a .300 mag to use instead...go figure.
this particular chap is a classic..... uses a little case to reduce recoil then tries to load it up to duplicate a big case preformance thinking he will get less recoil??? Newton anyone...
SAME chap bought single shot .308 then tried to get 3000fps with 150 grn pill and wondered why recoil got steep!!!! wouldnt drop projectile weight to 130grn or go heavier and slower.... a real head scratcher...but the .300 kicks less than the .308 he tells me?????

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## Tussock

Gimp only irritates me because he now advocates factory ammo and it seems like going into a fly tying forum and telling them they are wasting their time because you can buy flies at the fishing shop. 

As much as he is the most irritating person at times he is frequently right so I had another look at 6.5 Creedmore last night. I considered it because it seems cheap and plentiful. I dismissed it because it lacks two characteristics I like about the 6.5x47L. First, it used a large rifle primer and the x47s small primer pocket (and thus thick solid case base) and the hard federal primers make perfect sense to me. I think a large rifle primer in such a small case plays more than a priming role. There seems to be abundant data that show a small rifle primer and a small flash hole produce a more accurate round. Lapua thinks so anyway. 

If I want a chambering, I look through Lapuas catalogue because I don't use other brass. Years ago I had a shitty time with mixed Hornady brass because it was inconsistent and it put me off. If I use Lapua, I know I can forget about the cases. 

Secondly, the Creedmore seems to need more barrel for the same velocity and for a dual purpose target/varmint/hunting rifle which I like to build, I want the shortest barrel I can get away with without sacrificing any velocity. I want single shot accuracy, up to 3 rounds. I don't actually care as much about groups as I do how much a single shot from a cold barrel deviates from the point of aim. Nothing has performed like the x47 in this regard. 

Can anyone shed some light on this? I see Wingman is getting better velocity from the x47, all things being equal. Does the Creedmore really need more barrel to match the x47 for velocity?

I also note the Creedmore has Lapua brass with a small rifle primer and flash hole. Has anyone tried this? This basically makes it a x47 with factory ammo which is attractive. If most of the deformation is in the case head, and you have a robust case head, a hard primer, a tight firing pin and you are not stretching your brass, you can handle more pressure. If I ever end up with a three lug Sako bolt through my head you will know I was wrong. 

I am not certain there is not some engineering magic in the shape of the x47 case that explains the inherent accuracy (which is phenomenal) and the efficiency. It is a rare example of a case engineered from the ground up by people who know about these things. There are not that many engineered rounds out there. Most are modifications of an engineered round.

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## Micky Duck

> Absolutely - nor I and there isn't a 6.5 that I don't like well, maybe the 264WM is well overblown and I wouldn't bother.  I just wanted to contribute to your sample size - would hate to have you base your personal theory on one seemingly aberrant 55 - 
> 
> I'm running my 6.5SLR at 2750 with 130s out of a 16" barrel and building a 22" 6.5SAUM that will operate at 3100-3200 for the same pills
> 
> The 6.5 is a cool calibre - its ballistically efficient at a projectile weight range of 120-140gr which is perfect for most of our hunting, whilst at the same time being light enough to allow for small powder cases and low recoil.


shite for a moment there I couldve sworn you were talking about the mighty poohseventy!!!!

----------


## Wingman

@Tussock The small rifle primed Lapua brass is all I use in Creedmoor and any comparison I make in this thread is with that brass. Same brass, same bullet, same powder, same primer and same barrel length.. the x47 wins with 3.5gr less powder and 150fps advantage. Creedmoor load shows pressure and x47 does not. I need a finer granule RL16 to get more in there to find where the pressure signs start

----------


## Wingman

> shite for a moment there I couldve sworn you were talking about the mighty poohseventy!!!!


Oh man.. who left that closet door open again?

----------


## Micky Duck

so I had a quick look for powder you dreaming about....hard to suss out where eggzachary RL16 sits when its now shown on ADI chart but ASSUMING its between 15-and 19.... as the numbers keep going up as you get further down the chart....it might just be SIMILAR in burn rate to good old winchester 760....... food for thought,something to look into.as you would fit more in case....I KNOW you wont go blindly and will triple check everything just thought the obvious might have been missed (train of thought started with superpreformance for similar reasons,the more in case is why I use lilgun in x39mm) hope that makes sence???

----------


## Wingman

Yeah super performance and 760 were in my sights..
Maybe even a blend of something lol

----------


## quadhunter260

My 260 has 21 inch tube and 1:9 twist cause im happy with 120-130gn pills yes bc not great but i only comfortable shooting game to 350ish
Ill go for 1:8 or 1:8.5 6.5x47 on next barrel fits my short arse mag length and be able to play 130gn or higher pills this thread making my wallet nervous lol

----------


## johnd

> Gimp only irritates me because he now advocates factory ammo and it seems like going into a fly tying forum and telling them they are wasting their time because you can buy flies at the fishing shop. 
> 
> As much as he is the most irritating person at times he is frequently right so I had another look at 6.5 Creedmore last night. I considered it because it seems cheap and plentiful. I dismissed it because it lacks two characteristics I like about the 6.5x47L. First, it used a large rifle primer and the x47s small primer pocket (and thus thick solid case base) and the hard federal primers make perfect sense to me. I think a large rifle primer in such a small case plays more than a priming role. There seems to be abundant data that show a small rifle primer and a small flash hole produce a more accurate round. Lapua thinks so anyway. 
> 
> If I want a chambering, I look through Lapuas catalogue because I don't use other brass. Years ago I had a shitty time with mixed Hornady brass because it was inconsistent and it put me off. If I use Lapua, I know I can forget about the cases. 
> 
> Secondly, the Creedmore seems to need more barrel for the same velocity and for a dual purpose target/varmint/hunting rifle which I like to build, I want the shortest barrel I can get away with without sacrificing any velocity. I want single shot accuracy, up to 3 rounds. I don't actually care as much about groups as I do how much a single shot from a cold barrel deviates from the point of aim. Nothing has performed like the x47 in this regard. 
> 
> Can anyone shed some light on this? I see Wingman is getting better velocity from the x47, all things being equal. Does the Creedmore really need more barrel to match the x47 for velocity?
> ...


 @Tussock i run a Creedmoor with Lapua SP Brass, I'm only on about my 6th firing for the cases though.
And @Micky Duck I use W760.

Never chrono'ed  the load but working backwards with a ballistic app it works out to about 2770 FPS for 139 grain Scenars

----------


## 257weatherby

> Most people these days shoot prone/bipod with the non-trigger hand tucked in under the buttstock. And all power to them. I learnt to shoot prone a long time ago with no bipod, supporting the air rifle or .22 with my left hand, then the same with centrefires. And no amount of anything can get me to change that now, irrespective of what kind of rest is up front. 
> 
> Interestingly my wife who is army trained, also controls the forend with her left hand, for exactly the same reason, most of the training was done without a forend rest, especially with the R4.  Now she tells me this evening that when using the 7.62 R1 (FN-FAL) with the bipod, the taught position was still left hand on the rifle forend, which obviously is at odds with the US Military for example. 
> 
> Just a simple case of old habits die very hard, when the old habit doesn't appear to hinder you in anyway then why change?


Not wrapping through the sling and locking the rifle in, just feels plain weird to me, and you shoot just as well as the guys that have bipods and rear rests. And you can transfer the same hold to kneeling, sitting and standing. Maybe I'm just a control freak.

----------


## Tussock

I don't use a bi-pod. I shoot off a backpack. As the guy who taught me to stop holding it said, "why bother, the projectile is long gone".

----------


## Danny

So tell me straight, same pressures same projectiles, same action, same 21 barrel will the x47 push past the x55?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Micky Duck

> I don't use a bi-pod. I shoot off a backpack. As the guy who taught me to stop holding it said, "why bother, the projectile is long gone".


I guess you best tell Tiger Woods he no longer needs to follow through with his golf swing too then...after all the ball is long gone....

----------


## Micky Duck

> So tell me straight, same pressures same projectiles, same action, same 21” barrel will the x47 push past the x55?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


same pressure from same barrel it cant....pressure=push so if push is the same so must be velocity to have higher velocity from same barrel it MUST push it harder so would NEED higher pressure. speed of powder wont come into it as barrel is same........is is not????

----------


## Tussock

> I guess you best tell Tiger Woods he no longer needs to follow through with his golf swing too then...after all the ball is long gone....


I think if you look, Tiger woods does not hit a gold ball at 3000ft/sec. The key is to not move at all for a tiny fraction of a second, so I'm not sure what a follow through might look like? Muzzle flip happens after the projectile leaves the barrel, it is the feeling of the gas leaving the barrel. So your saying by physically trying to control something that happens after the projectile leaves the barrel, this helps you to move less during that fraction of a second?

What does a follow through on a rifle shot mean? Because a golf swing is a dynamic movement and an accurate shot is the absence of dynamic movement. If I throw a punch, as a boxer do I need to follow through? Only if I want to get punched in the head. 

I do not think this is a universal rule.

----------


## Tussock

> So tell me straight, same pressures same projectiles, same action, same 21” barrel will the x47 push past the x55?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why would the pressure and the action be the same?

----------


## winaa

> Why would the pressure and the action be the same?


I think he is asking if you have the same Action (say Sako A7) and quality brass (Lapua) you could theoretically load to the same pressure. Having the same barrel length would there be any speed advantage of one over the other?

----------


## Tentman

Follow through is vital.  A rifle moves about 1/16" before the projectile leaves the barrel.  Can't avoid the laws of physics . . .

----------


## Tentman

're velocity.  A lot of the modern cartidge brass seem to be able to stand around 70,000 psi without showing the traditional signs of pressure.   Possibly you'll get away with it in a modern action but if there's a manufacturing flaw or someone with an old mauser gets your ammo by mistake - look out!.  

Leade design also plays an important part in velocities - a long leade is the same as seating out.

----------


## R93

I was always taught to follow thru or dwell after the shot was broken with a rifle. 
Pretty sure the projectile is still in the barrel during initial recoil impulse depending on a few things.

I don't have any accuracy issues if I do my part no matter how I shoot my rifles. Bipod, pack or any other traditional position. They all shoot within an acceptable POI inside say 500 yrds. 
I only hold/support the front when shooting without a bipod.

It is a concrete marksmanship principle.
Shot must be released and followed thru with minimum disturbance to the rifle or shooters position.


Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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## Tussock

It may be a concrete principle, but I have seen vastly better shooting from people who don't bother. If people are shooting 5 shot round bug hole groups from field rests with no fore end control, what are you expecting to gain?

How is it vital if people are shooting extremely well without it?

These are two three shot groups at 1100m from my old Savage F-Class. This is about 6-12 months after I abandoned trying to control the fore-end. When I tried to control the fore-end, this is what my 100m groups look like.  


I can only credit the people who taught me to shoot as before that I was hopeless, but those groups were shot leaning over the back deck of a flatdeck ute. Unless you can come up with a concrete reason, I will stick with being in awe of the concrete principles they taught me.

----------


## Gibo

F-Class .22 by any chance?

----------


## Tussock

> F-Class .22 by any chance?


I don't understand what you mean? 6.5x284

----------


## Tussock

> Follow through is vital.  A rifle moves about 1/16" before the projectile leaves the barrel.  Can't avoid the laws of physics . . .


Not questioning the laws of physics, but are you saying you grip the rifle and hold it to prevent that 1/16" movement?

I'm not over selling those groups. Clearly everything went right and I did bugger all (Crzyman did the load development) beyond lie down behind the rifle. It was a still day and we walked the round onto the target and shot groups because it was miles to the targets. Any forum member who has been to one of my LR shoots will recognize the target stands. Clearly everything went right. 

My question is, if it is a concrete principle and if the laws of physics say you must control the fore-end and follow through (still not sure what this means), then how is this possible? How can everything go right (frequently) even off makeshift rests, if a critical part of marksmanship is being ignored?

----------


## Gibo

> I don't understand what you mean? 6.5x284


I was taking the piss  :Wink:  a few here would claim that group at 1100 with their .22  :Grin:

----------


## Tussock

> I was taking the piss  a few here would claim that group at 1100 with their .22


Big Gav amused himself no end and probably did the barrel life no great favors by hunting blow flies with that rifle. I wanted 140s but he loaded 130s because they were freakish.

----------


## Sideshow

> Oh man.. who left that closet door open again?


Did some one say WITCH :Thumbsup:

----------


## R93

> It may be a concrete principle, but I have seen vastly better shooting from people who don't bother. If people are shooting 5 shot round bug hole groups from field rests with no fore end control, what are you expecting to gain?
> 
> How is it vital if people are shooting extremely well without it?
> 
> These are two three shot groups at 1100m from my old Savage F-Class. This is about 6-12 months after I abandoned trying to control the fore-end. When I tried to control the fore-end, this is what my 100m groups look like.  
> Attachment 105916
> 
> I can only credit the people who taught me to shoot as before that I was hopeless, but those groups were shot leaning over the back deck of a flatdeck ute. Unless you can come up with a concrete reason, I will stick with being in awe of the concrete principles they taught me.


You miss understood me. I am not saying it is critical to follow thru or hold the fore end. I rarely do either.
Totally agree with you on most parts.
Some people can break most of the principles and shoot awesomely. Just the way it is.

What I meant by concrete is that it is a principle of marksmanship. 
I will also bet dollars to donuts you follow thru to an extent without realising it. 




Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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## Tussock

> You miss understood me. I am not saying it is critical to follow thru or hold the fore end. I rarely do either.
> Totally agree with you on most parts.
> Some people can break most of the principles and shoot awesomely. Just the way it is.
> 
> What I meant by concrete is that it is a principle of marksmanship. 
> I will also bet dollars to donuts you follow thru to an extent without realising it. 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said, I don't know what you mean so I can't say one way or another. I want the cross hairs to come back to where they started, is this what you mean? Unless it is a field shot and I'm all twisted up. Realistically you should be able to shoot left handed lying on your back twisted round a tree stump and if you get the important stuff right, still get what you want. 

I definitely want the rifle to recoil and return to the same point of aim, or at least field of view.

Should add that with 6.5x47 burning no more powder than it needs, I could self spot with my heavy hunting rifle at 100m on quite high magnification. A Sako stock and a heavy over barrel suppressor help. Little recoil. 

Lets see if my new straight stocked sporter weight 7mm Rem Mag with its pencil thin barrel changes my tune. Could only get 175g factory loads locally :Grin:

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## R93

Yup. That's pretty much what a follow thru is. Watching the foresight or crosshair after the shot. 
If position and everything else is right, your sight picture should return to where it started. 

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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## Micky Duck

Tussock I do believe you have answered your own......query ??? in the last two lines..... for sure you can get away with a hell of a lot with a light recoiling heavy rifle.... try it with something that has a bit of boot and the results could be vastly different....YES there are alot of people out there who can shoot very well off a bipod without forend support BUT you can bet your bottom $$$$ thier rifles were sighted in this way and they have taken a bit of time to get that bipod in as stable a position as possible...not always an option in field conditions...I cant deny that in its place it works...but Im buggered if I can see how with a rushed shot in less than ideal conditions it can..to use your own exzample "left handed on your back twisted around a tree stump" now tell me how you are going to get a bipod rested on flat surface to allow the" return to battery" that we are talking about when saying follow through????

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## winaa

Wow this thread has gone off topic  :Wtfsmilie:

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## Gibo

> Wow this thread has gone off topic


Up to our necks in tussock  :Grin:

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## Tussock

> Up to our necks in tussock


Casual reminder this place started with a few specific gripes. One of which was the obsessive tendency to keep threads on topic. No one could ever explain to me what the point of this was. Someone will pop in and put it back on topic, or it will drift into the apocalyptic heap of abandoned threads in the background. Someone will start another 6.5x47L thread. 

The idea of forums is discussion. The "KEEP THE THREAD ON TOPIC" people can be seen to kill/damp down discussion as a matter of routine. You want threads to go off topic and get as many pages total as possible. 

Forums are killed by: policing content as if you are creating some important database of critical information
Forums a double killed by: people doing what @gimp is doing. Fatigued senior/long term member telling the new members not to bother doing what they did for the last decade. 

You are up to you necks in Tussock. If you want a strict set of rules ask admin for them, but they seem to have stuck with our initial plans, with great success.

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## Gibo

I was again taking the piss, not like I have never derailed a topic  :Wink:  Hell its my specialty

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## Tussock

> Tussock I do believe you have answered your own......query ??? in the last two lines..... for sure you can get away with a hell of a lot with a light recoiling heavy rifle.... try it with something that has a bit of boot and the results could be vastly different....YES there are alot of people out there who can shoot very well off a bipod without forend support BUT you can bet your bottom $$$$ thier rifles were sighted in this way and they have taken a bit of time to get that bipod in as stable a position as possible...not always an option in field conditions...I cant deny that in its place it works...but Im buggered if I can see how with a rushed shot in less than ideal conditions it can..to use your own exzample "left handed on your back twisted around a tree stump" now tell me how you are going to get a bipod rested on flat surface to allow the" return to battery" that we are talking about when saying follow through????


I'm not a beginner. I have owned and shit a few things, many of them hard booting. I don't mind, but I don't like the stock characteristics of this 7mm Rem Mag, I would usually avoid them. I'm going to leave it un-suppressed so I can maintain my ability to shoot uncomfortable things, not create it. Like I said, we will see how I go. 

You seem to have missed the part where I said *I DONT OWN A BIPOD!* :Grin: 

While I actually have a box of them, I don't use them anymore. Getting the tension in the legs even on anything less than a perfect surface is a huge pain in the arse. 

I also said that in the "left handed on your back twisted around a tree stump" I would expect the "return to battery". I said I would expect to make the shot, if I did all the other bits right. 

What I am talking about is natural point of aim. I want the cross hairs to rest naturally on the target, while my body is completely relaxed and the only muscles with any tension at all are working the trigger.

As I understand it, you are trying to physically control the movement of the rifle under recoil. I would have liked to know if @Tentman intended to stop the 1/16" muzzle flip before the projectile left the barrel. If so, the laws of physics say he can't stop it completely. So can he reduce it. My question is, can he reduce it by exactly the same amount every time?

Guiding the rifle back to its starting point is one thing. Physically controlling the rifle to prevent it from moving to some degree is another. 

How do you do this with no tension to be found anywhere in your body?

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## Tussock

> Up to our necks in tussock


I don't take anything personally. Just more shit talked :Grin:

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## Sideshow

Tussock can I barrow that bipod of yours I hear its SPECIAL  :Wink:

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## Micky Duck

I can assure you Mr Tussock...I control my rifle perfectly "fine n dandy peas n carrots" without excess tension,Im not having a wrestling match with the plurry thing,mearly holding it firmly by the natural way rifles have been held since the beginning of there use...why else do we have a forend if not to hold onto....LOL.

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## winaa

I was interested in Wingmans journey with the 6.5x47 Lapua. But all this BS about proper rifle hold, bi-pods bla bla bla has stuffed what otherwise would have been a good thread.
I,m gone.

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## Creeper

> I was interested in Wingmans journey with the 6.5x47 Lapua. But all this BS about proper rifle hold, bi-pods bla bla bla has stuffed what otherwise would have been a good thread.
> I,m gone.


To much follow through from a couple of pull throughs

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## Danny

I find that when I use a pull through it creates a lot less friction when I apply oil or some type of lube. Lubes is best. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## 257weatherby

> I find that when I use a pull through it creates a lot less friction when I apply oil or some type of lube. Lubes is best. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe you should give some to @Gibo for when he is deep in @Tussock........... I think @Creeper might want in too...........

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## Danny

> Maybe you should give some to @Gibo for when he is deep in @Tussock........... I think @Creeper might want in too...........


Those three pricks get down and dirty with each others barrels big time. Hoppes No 9 and they scissor away. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Tussock

This video will explain why, for anatomical reasons, you guys will talk a little shit on the forum, you will talk shit behind my back, but you will never say of this shit to my face.

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## Tussock

> I was interested in Wingmans journey with the 6.5x47 Lapua. But all this BS about proper rifle hold, bi-pods bla bla bla has stuffed what otherwise would have been a good thread.
> I,m gone.


I'm away for a few months and this place becomes A high school !  Then every melodramatic prick ending his posts with "I'm out" as if anyone cares. Where were you in?

What a bunch of princesses. Its not just how you like it so time for a dummy spit. I guess you guys see two conversations happening in one thread and you get all confused and angry. Too hard to tell the different topics apart. I understand. 

I wonder how many guys are lurking instead of posting because of the plague of territorial half men on here?

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## deepsouthaussie

Honestly @Tussock I actually believe you have valid well informed opinions on hunting related techniques and quipment most of the time from what I have read. Let's get this straight, I don't know ya from a bar of soap but your the one who seems like a moaning little drama queen in this thread man, take a joke,  take a hint and stop taking this shit so serious. 

If your whole keyboard warrior facade is just a joke,  well than its on me..  

As for the cartridge in question,  what a little rocket ship!  Is anyone offering a factory rifle in that chambering? 

Sent from my RNE-L22 using Tapatalk

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## Gibo

Yip old tussock back at his old tricks........you love to wind everyone up then try and reverse the negative feedback. If only you had some post history to quote.....oh funny how your entire history here was wiped. Shaping up for the same treatment from what I see.

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## Tussock

I hear ya, and I don't. I did delete my post history, that is correct. Three times now in total. About 20,000 posts over three forums. My content, not the forums as it turned out. See the color of my name? It is green, not blue. I was a terrible "caretaker" just like I was a shit mod on FnH. 

I will yield the point about thread hijacks. I have been bitching about this since about 2005, because the most fun we ever had with the widest range of people getting along, and the best atmosphere, was back when we were posting virtually everything in the same place. The more guys we got who could not cope with this, the more tedious things got. No going back I guess. This forum was originally designed to replicate that and again it was super popular and again, a bunch of guys who can't cope with no rules turned up (because it was comfy) to tell us what we were doing was wrong. Like panel rust I guess. To avoid the hassle, I will just start more threads. 

This is not complicated. There are a bunch of guys here who will insult anyone who drifts away from their approved way of being. You either think and act like them, or you get insulted. You get this "But all this BS about proper rifle hold, bi-pods bla bla bla" or you get "To much follow through from a couple of pull throughs".

A hell of a lot of guys will not post because they might cop this. The guys who are doing this are obviously big fish in whatever tiny pond they come from, that they think they are special and get to decide what is cool and what is not. Somehow they feel they can outright insult people with impunity. I agree with people ignoring this, it is just not my style. I'm not used to it frankly, this type of man literally crosses the street to avoid me in real life.

Years ago a bunch of guys who like to publicly hated me on the forum all stayed at my house, invited by another member. They were all very pleasant and we got on fine, because in person all this evaporates because they are acting. 24/7. The big talk evaporates in person. I have never had any trouble fronting up in person and talking exactly as I do here. Like anywhere, I will insist if you are to be insulting people and trying to dominate them, you start with me. I find it more peaceful this way. 

Like anywhere, there are a bunch of people here I have the utmost respect for and who I would go on another expedition with without hesitation. Like anywhere, there is a ton of dead wood and useless flesh. This is why I like doing things that are hard. These fuckers will never turn up because there is no chance to try look cool by insulting people while doing nothing. 

So fair is fair, I will cut the thread hijacks out. The guys with the insults and snide comments, I will continue to point out they are up to FA.

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## 257weatherby

20,000 posts........ you don't have something better to do? don't know If I qualify as your "keyboard worrier" (spelling deliberate) type, cause I am guilty of hanging bait from time to time, but your post does make it sound that you believe you are an intimidating hard man that scares people across the road (your real name isn't Bad Bad Leroy Brown is it?) In real life, I can be a very difficult bastard, and I cross the road for no one, one or six, it just won't happen.

You really can't take what gets put on forums to heart, we are all different and have differing perception about everything, it really does sound like, it is actually you with the biggest problem, or you like to wear your Klingon cloaking device and go fishing, here.

Of course, my perception could be way off, it's a long way to see down from my own ivory castle you know.

(Stamps foot!) I'M OUTA HERE!!!! (flounces out the door)

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## Dreamer

This thread didn't need to be filled up with all this f...ing bullshit! Why didn't/don't you start your own thread on holding shit!

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## deepsouthaussie

Any comments around factory offerings?

----------


## Gibo

> Any comments around factory offerings?


Pump some through Edendale mate  :Wink:

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## Sidney

> This thread didn't need to be filled up with all this f...ing bullshit! Why didn't/don't you start your own thread on holding shit!


Because its an effing conversation... this effing paranoia about thread creep does not mirror real life. Real conversations ebb and flow and dicks who throw tantees about not remaining close to original subject get dealt with in real life. What a winaa - are you sure you aren't missing a couple of letters?

The irony appears completely lost on those who want to wank on about 270s and waikato beer in every friggin thread.. queuing up here to bitch about thread creep???

Unlike those dicks there might have been some value in a discussion about bipods and forend control... irrespective of the original post..

Develop some ability to communicate and skilfully turn the conversation back to where you would like it to go rather than stamping your little feet....

for pities sake...

----------


## Tussock

For @deepsouthaussie to my knowledge there are no factory offerings unfortunately. Because a thread can come back on topic. It should be possible to get commercial handloads done for a similar price as ammo, or premium ammo (which it is better than). I never liked that I had to send my rifle off for this but it worked Ok. I got a very slow load that was extremely accurate the one time I tried it. 

As for this whole thread, Sidney is right. Conversations wander. I can't picture someone at the pub sitting around a table telling people what they can talk about when, but then I don't go to the pub much. Have we not had this entire discussion before? Have I not been bollocked by mostly the exact same people in exactly the same way on another forum? And what happened? We set this up and you all left a place where every section has a mod enforcing these rules you like so much. 
You guys followed everyone who was sick of you over here once you had completely dominated the discussion there, and thus killed it. You can go back. The mods are no doubt still there telling people where they are allowed to post. 
 @257weatherby I live in a small town where some people hang their heads and look around nervously because petty dominant types will pick on them. There are other people who are petty dominant like chickens, and they do all the pecking. They walk with their head up and they like to look people up and down. For whatever reason, the shy timid ones who get picked on find me approachable and the petty dominant ones seem to literally run away. 

Just an observation.

----------


## deepsouthaussie

All good, just tyre kicking anyway.. While I really like the Idea of a 6mm running high velocities with decent BC pills and low recoil, I think my next rifle is going magnum

----------


## dogmatix

I think I need to post a naval history comment to lighten the mood. 
Seems a bit grim.

----------


## Mathias

@Wingman, got any updates fella? Interested on how it's all behaving.

----------


## Nickoli

There's a guy selling factory chambered "Lynx" straight pull rifles on Trademe - and I've noticed the 6.5x47 is one of the chamberings available. Pricey, but they look like they could be a bit of fun.

----------


## Sarvo

Dam - what have I been missing here - "6.5x47 Lapua"  so wasn't the slightest interested in "another" primer induced explosion
All the time it was about everything else other than by the looks - have I missed it or is still running hot

----------


## Wingman

Shit guys I go away hunting for 4 days and you cant play nice and keep my thread on track?!

Actually I dont mind the secondary topic as it is quite relevant and an interesting topic. @Flyblown and I had quite a few conversations about this while we were in the field and we had some interesting related events which I will go into more about later. 
The 6.5 Lapua got a fair work out and lots of testing and I am more than excited about the results. 
We have a heap of pics and video footage which we will share in due time.

Just got home and need to clean the gear and process some meat.

----------


## Micky Duck

sorry to all and sundry for getting off track.....as for moderating it...well on yet another forum what we do is split off the off topic bit at moderator lever and chuck it back up as a seperate thread......doesnt happen often LOL keep the photos etc coming Wingman.

----------


## Tussock

People clearly just got over excited by the x47

I wonder if any of those who don't want us to discuss muzzle flip and recoil after the projectile has left the barrel are aware for a round that sends 140g at serious speeds there is virtually none of either? 

As in I don't thing there is a round that boots less for the ammont of downrange oomph.

----------


## Beetroot

> As in I don't thing there is a round that boots less for the ammont of downrange oomph.


Of course not, recoil is a linear relationship with muzzle energy. 
If you want more oomph down range you will inevitably get more recoil.

Whether the 6.5x47 hits the sweet spot between the two is down to personal preference.

----------


## Tussock

> Of course not, recoil is a linear relationship with muzzle energy. 
> If you want more oomph down range you will inevitably get more recoil.
> 
> Whether the 6.5x47 hits the sweet spot between the two is down to personal preference.


Recoil is quoted as a linear relationship to muzzle energy, but muzzle energy is divided between the projectile and the venting gas. The projectile and the venting gas have a different effect on felt recoil. Recoil is an equation with muzzle energy in it. Felt recoil is what transfers to the shoulder. 

Take a rifle and shoot it with a 26" barrel and then shoot it with a 10" barrel. Minus the difference in friction down the barrel, the muzzle energy is the same. See if they both feel the same to shoot. At 26" the energy is in the projectiles motion, and at 16" the gas discharge. At 16" some of the energy is probably in a huge fire ball of un-burned powder. Try a muzzle brake. The muzzle brake does not direct the projectile out sideways. 

A linear relationship between felt recoil and muzzle energy is an oversimplification. It comes down to efficiency. How much from the energy from the powder (the only source) can be transferred to the projectile. I personally think the projectile moves the gun very little compared to the high pressure gas at the muzzle and the diameter of the hole the gas vents out of. I think nothing makes more efficient use of the powder in a 20" barrel (or there abouts) than a 6.5x47L. I think Lapua planned that. It is not a consideration in most rounds. 

Be curious to know how many people have actually shot 6.5x47

----------


## Cliff

@Tussock

I want single shot accuracy, up to 3 rounds. I don't actually care as much about groups as I do how much a single shot from a cold barrel deviates from the point of aim.

Well said, the importance of this is often overlooked.

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## Wingman

Righto, hopefully this short vid touches on the fore mentioned questions of rifle hold/control, 6.5x47 Lapua's recoil and ergonomics of the Desert Tech's bolt configuration.

This was a quick check of my 130gr TMK load's ballistics correlation with my chrono and strelok. @Flyblown was spotting, I was shooting a rock at 497 meters (544 yards).




Following this test we moved out to 1012 meters and put this 5 shot group on a rock after a couple of sighters. 



The following morning we put a paper target  next to the rock to try and get a a better group. Unfortunately there was an ugly gusty wind and we couldnt see the hits so I only got one of 5 shots on the paper (4x A4 pages) you cabn see the hole on the R/H lateral line and the rest drifted off the paper to the right.

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## Russian 22.

How did it go on the deer?

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## Wingman

It went very well.. took some longer range goats too. 200 to 600 meter shots all were instant drop on the spots apart from one goat that I hit a little far back at 330 meters and required a follow up shot.
The Sierra tipped match king although a little lower in BC than some of the other 130gr range available it has been absolutely dependable on all game. All bang flops.. nothing walked. 
I did have one anomaly on a fellow at 200 meters that stepped forward as I shot. The bullet hit a little far back behind the shoulder turning the liver to pulp and passing through the front of the rumen which must have acted like a thick ballistic gel because the bullet didnt exit. I punched through a rib on the exit side but stopped under the skin. 
A 100% energy dump that dropped the fallow on the spot and caused some very interesting internal trauma that I have not seen before with this bullet.  
The norm with the TMK is a pass through with great expansion and wound channel with an exit wound of about an inch. Very little to no meet damage on most accounts if placement is right.

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## Russian 22.

Is that a grip pod? Do you rate them.? I saw one on Ali express for 20 bucks that I thought would be worth trying. I'd need an M lok adaptor though

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## Wingman

No its an Atlas bipod

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## Tussock

Good stuff. Nothing I shot with mine went far. Love those 6.5/140s.

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## Puffin

> Good stuff. Nothing I shot with mine went far. Love those 6.5/140s.


What 140s do you use please, and if more than one type, how would you order them in terms of accuracy in your x47 ?

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## Moa Hunter

> Recoil is quoted as a linear relationship to muzzle energy, but muzzle energy is divided between the projectile and the venting gas. The projectile and the venting gas have a different effect on felt recoil. Recoil is an equation with muzzle energy in it. Felt recoil is what transfers to the shoulder. 
> 
> Take a rifle and shoot it with a 26" barrel and then shoot it with a 10" barrel. Minus the difference in friction down the barrel, the muzzle energy is the same. See if they both feel the same to shoot. At 26" the energy is in the projectiles motion, and at 16" the gas discharge. At 16" some of the energy is probably in a huge fire ball of un-burned powder. Try a muzzle brake. The muzzle brake does not direct the projectile out sideways. 
> 
> A linear relationship between felt recoil and muzzle energy is an oversimplification. It comes down to efficiency. How much from the energy from the powder (the only source) can be transferred to the projectile. I personally think the projectile moves the gun very little compared to the high pressure gas at the muzzle and the diameter of the hole the gas vents out of. I think nothing makes more efficient use of the powder in a 20" barrel (or there abouts) than a 6.5x47L. I think Lapua planned that. It is not a consideration in most rounds. 
> 
> Be curious to know how many people have actually shot 6.5x47


Regarding recoil, can anyone answer the following question and not just guess or speculate on the answer: If two rifles of identical weight and effective barrel length ahead of the chamber, one a 6.5 06 and the other a 6.5 saum are loaded with identical powder charges and projectiles the 6.5 saum will achieve a higher muzzle velocity. Q Is there any difference in recoil ??

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## Tussock

> Regarding recoil, can anyone answer the following question and not just guess or speculate on the answer: If two rifles of identical weight and effective barrel length ahead of the chamber, one a 6.5 06 and the other a 6.5 saum are loaded with identical powder charges and projectiles the 6.5 saum will achieve a higher muzzle velocity. Q Is there any difference in recoil ??


Purely in terms of practical physics, as I think gas discharge creates more thrust into your shoulder (by working exactly like a thruster) then the saum would have to have less recoil, as in order to get higher velocity, all else being equal, it needs to make better use of the powder charge. 

In other words, more efficiency means more energy transferred to the motion of projectile and less to the rifle.

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## Tussock

> What 140s do you use please, and if more than one type, how would you order them in terms of accuracy in your x47 ?


AMAX, which no longer exist.

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## Wingman

I havent gone into my load development much on this thread and that was for a couple of reasons, the first being that I was rushing to get this barrel finished for this hunting trip and the other reason being that it seems to shoot everything I have run through it. 
I have lots of various 6.5mm bullets to test if any of you guys are interested to see that process but Im pretty decided on the 130gr TMK as my hunting load as it has done all I have asked of it in this rifle and my Creedmoor. 

I have also loaded 100x 123gr A-Max which also shoot surprisingly well, the BC is .510 which is almost that of the 130gr TMK at .518. 
I picked up 500 of the A-Max's at $50 per 100x for the Grendel so they will be put to good use. Its a pity they were discontinued only to be re introduced with a fancy new name (123gr, 130gr and 140gr ELDM) with a $35-$40 price hike of course, nice one Hornady!'

Both of the TMK and A-Max loads shoot sub .4" at 100 yards  between 2900fps and 3100fps so I just dropped back to 3000fps for the 123gr A-Max with 2208 which gives no pressure signs and 2950fps for the 130gr TMK with RL16 to combat a compressed load situation which cause ES to open up and made it a pain to seat bullets consistently. 

When I get a bit of time and suitable weather Ill test the other bullets I have on hand, the 143gr ELDX further (only did a ladder test), the 130gr ELDM, the 130gr Berger VLD hunter the Lapua 123gr, 136gr L and 139gr Scenar bullets.

I will test some other powders too, BM8208 showed great speed (3000fps) and ES with the 123gr Amax so Ill have to put that on paper. 
W760 and Hodgdon super performance also might be an interesting experiment along with RL17.













A big thanks to Robert at Workshop Innovations for the gentle nudge away from the Harrells bench rest powder thrower and supplying my new RCBS  Loadmaster light automated powder measure.. it has been great! Yet to throw and heavy or light charges! It has been spot on every time.

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## Moa Hunter

> Purely in terms of practical physics, as I think gas discharge creates more thrust into your shoulder (by working exactly like a thruster) then the saum would have to have less recoil, as in order to get higher velocity, all else being equal, it needs to make better use of the powder charge. 
> 
> In other words, more efficiency means more energy transferred to the motion of projectile and less to the rifle.


I am no expert on this subject and that is why I asked the question. I think that your answer is probably very close to the truth Tussock. Some formula would suggest that we divide the foot pounds of projectile energy into the weight of the stock to get recoil energy, this would suggest that blanks create no recoil, which is not true. Other formula take the weight of the propellant and divide that into rifle weight.
What happens to recoil if we fire two bullets from a 308, one at 130 gr and one at 150gr both with the same 40 gr charge of 2209 - is there a difference in recoil ???

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## Wingman

The only real question here is why would anyone use 2209 in a .308?  :Wink:

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## Micky Duck

the 150grn load WILL recoil more and pressure will be higher,you are shifting a heavier payload....back to that Newton fella again..equal and opposite and all that....oops sshhh we sidetracked AGAIN.... BEETER REPHRASE QUESTION to be a 6x47 case???

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## Tussock

> the 150grn load WILL recoil more and pressure will be higher,you are shifting a heavier payload....back to that Newton fella again..equal and opposite and all that....oops sshhh we sidetracked AGAIN.... BEETER REPHRASE QUESTION to be a 6x47 case???


Newton said for every action there would be an equal and opposite reaction. He did not specify what the reaction would be. In the case of gun powder turning into gas, stuff will move. The projectile will move, the barrel will get hot (atoms moving), the projectile will get hot, the gas will move and the rifle will move. 

So in this case, the rifle will go backwards (recoil) but it is a reaction to several things. So you can't back calculate from the projectile energy because it is not the only variable. 

It is a very good question this 150g vs 130g for equal powder. You say you are shifting a heavier payload, but the payload is moving slower. So recoil should be equal. 

What about case pressure and its effect on powder burn? The 2209 will be burning at higher pressure. Does a powders burn rate change as the chamber pressure during the burn varies?

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## Micky Duck

GENERALLY a hgiher projectile weight requires a lower powder weight somewhere around 2 grns powder for 10 grns projectile..so the 150 grn load will be a way hotter load than the 130..so it has TWO differences,or to flip it around the 150grn load so so and the 130 a piss weak/mild one.

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## Moa Hunter

> Up to our necks in tussock


Don't light a match Gibo

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## Tussock

> GENERALLY a hgiher projectile weight requires a lower powder weight somewhere around 2 grns powder for 10 grns projectile..so the 150 grn load will be a way hotter load than the 130..so it has TWO differences,or to flip it around the 150grn load so so and the 130 a piss weak/mild one.


Good point.

I guess we have no choice but to load these and strap an Iphone to the top?

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## Moa Hunter

> The only real question here is why would anyone use 2209 in a .308?


Because they want to remind Tussock of the 6kg that he ruined by leaving it in the sun of course

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## Tussock

> Because they want to remind Tussock of the 6kg that he ruined by leaving it in the sun of course


I had forgotten about that. It might be perfect for .308 now.

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## Moa Hunter

> GENERALLY a hgiher projectile weight requires a lower powder weight somewhere around 2 grns powder for 10 grns projectile..so the 150 grn load will be a way hotter load than the 130..so it has TWO differences,or to flip it around the 150grn load so so and the 130 a piss weak/mild one.


So if what you say is correct then recoil would increase at a linear rate with projectile weight if the powder charge stayed the same. However taking what Tussock has said about the different 'reactions', if the pressure/ heat/ vibration also increases then the recoil thrust may not actually increase as much as might be expected because the energy loss also increases ….
Can we have our cake and eat it too - a low recoiling but high performance superlight mountain rifle ??

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## Wingman

Im not sure where this convo is going or how it relates but I can shoot .260rem 6.5x47 Lap and 6.5 Creedmoor in this same chassis, if any of you can feel a difference in recoil you are doing better than me. All are light recoiling "kid friendly" cartridges. If you are scared of a little recoil its probably best you forget about hunting and take up cycling

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## Moa Hunter

> Im not sure where this convo is going or how it relates but I can shoot .260rem 6.5x47 Lap and 6.5 Creedmoor in this same chassis, if any of you can feel a difference in recoil you are doing better than me. All are light recoiling "kid friendly" cartridges. If you are scared of a little recoil its probably best you forget about hunting and take up cycling


Well Wingman, by your own pen hand you have written (typed) that for the same powder charge / projectile in the 305.5 you have greater velocity than the CM … so I couldn't help wondering if this is at the expense of anything, including an increase in recoil ??

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## Micky Duck

is a SIMILAR weight/shape projectile at a SIMILAR speed with somewhere around 15-20 grns LESS powder than another often slighted cartridge that is often said "to boot like a mule".....

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## Puffin

Recoil energy formulae typically attribute an average of 4700 ft/sec (or similar) departure speed to the mass of gas escaping behind the bullet treated as a point mass of the same weight as the starting powder charge leaving in the same direction as the bullet. Sum the momentum of the bullet and powder, apply conservation of momentum using the rifle weight, and then calculate the recoil energy from the resulting rearward velocity of the rifle. 

For a given weight of rifle and barrel length within a single calibre, bullet energy plotted against rifle recoil energy follows an efficiency curve for different cases and bullet weights. More efficient cases may move their data points somewhat above the average, and the converse is also true. The same applies to the suitability of powder in its ability to transfer energy to the bullet. But where a shooter chooses to operate on this curve depends more on where it is felt the optimal trade-off exists between bullet energy and rifle recoil. Tussock has identified what he considers to be the sweet spot on this curve for 6.5mm (probably also factoring in the ability of this calibre & bullet weight to kill red deer sized critters at normal hunting ranges), and it is a 140gr bullet in a 6.5x47 with a suitable powder - and I'm inclined to agree with him.

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## Wingman

> Well Wingman, by your own pen hand you have written (typed) that for the same powder charge / projectile in the 305.5 you have greater velocity than the CM … so I couldn't help wondering if this is at the expense of anything, including an increase in recoil ??


Yip all of about 100fps more.. but I bet there is no one that could tell the difference in recoil between those two cartridge loads in the same rifle.

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## Moa Hunter

> Yip all of about 100fps more.. but I bet there is no one that could tell the difference in recoil between those two cartridge loads in the same rifle.


What I find really interesting with this discussion is that in the past, to gain greater velocity a bigger case and more powder was needed. Now I am seeing that concept change from a bigger case to a more efficient for calibre case.

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## Tussock

> Can we have our cake and eat it too - a low recoiling but high performance superlight mountain rifle ??


6.5x47L

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## Wingman

> What I find really interesting with this discussion is that in the past, to gain greater velocity a bigger case and more powder was needed. Now I am seeing that concept change from a bigger case to a more efficient for calibre case.


Thats always been my jive.. high efficiently bench rest style cartridges with heavier bullets and  short actions

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## Puffin

> ...and chambered it with one of Dave Mansons match reamers...


Wingman, please tell me a bit about your reamer: your freebore length and neck diameter (clearance) choice and perhaps your thinking that led to these dimensions?   I think I would be right in saying that these are likely to be the two variables with everything else staying much the same at standard CIP  -  unless you also requested the leade angle be tweaked?

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## GWH

> 6.5x47L


or if you want a little more poke, 6.5 SAUM or PRC

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## Tussock

> Wingman, please tell me a bit about your reamer: your freebore length and neck diameter (clearance) choice and perhaps your thinking that led to these dimensions?   I think I would be right in saying that these are likely to be the two variables with everything else staying much the same at standard CIP  -  unless you also requested the leade angle be tweaked?


Somehow I have lost my custom reamer for a Sako 75 action. I guess one of my relatives thought it was a drill bit. Keen to see the answer to this.

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## madjon_

> Somehow I have lost my custom reamer for a Sako 75 action. I guess one of my relatives thought it was a drill bit. Keen to see the answer to this.


Was @gimp original 6.5x47L done with this reamer?

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## Tussock

> Was @gimp original 6.5x47L done with this reamer?


I don't recall. Have to ask him. I bought it from pacific tool and gauge. It was not actually expensive. I had it set up so I could seat to the lands in a Sako box magazine from memory. It was a while ago.

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## Nick-D

6.5x47L aka the 6.5 creed-before

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## Mathias

@outdoorlad are you running your 6.5x47L on an M mag on that nice Tikka of yours? Any OAL issues if so?

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## johnd

> The only real question here is why would anyone use 2209 in a .308?


Oh please lord dont let them introduce the .308 into  6.5 thread.

I have just come to terms with deep seating 155's into big round baked bean cans. I look at the the long throated 6.5's and think ... nah you cant do that!

 :Omg:  :Omg:  :Pacman:  :Pacman:

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## Tussock

> 6.5x47L aka the 6.5 creed-before


Still waiting for clarification on the barrel length for 6.5Creedmore. Can I get 2800ft/sec comfortably with 140s and a 20" barrel?

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## Wingman

> Wingman, please tell me a bit about your reamer: your freebore length and neck diameter (clearance) choice and perhaps your thinking that led to these dimensions?   I think I would be right in saying that these are likely to be the two variables with everything else staying much the same at standard CIP  -  unless you also requested the leade angle be tweaked?


The rifle is predominantly a hunting rifle so this school of thought was always foremost on the build specs. Tight neck reamers and long freebores with crazy lead angles for secant or hybrid ogive bullets would limit the range of suitable hunting bullets and adds possible mechanical complications in the field which I wanted to avoid.  
The reamer was ground to cut a .298" neck, my loaded non neck turned neck measures .290" and the free bore length set up for the 139gr Scenar at .235". This puts that bullet in 100% neck to bearing surface contact with 5 though jump and a 2.73" COAL. 
The lead angle is std CIP.
The 130gr TMK is very much the same dimensions as the 139gr scenar with the same boat tail and ogive shape, other than the plastic tip they almost measure identical which has made for easy tuning of that load. 
I look forward to testing  some other bullets but early signs show its really not that fussy to load for.

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## Moa Hunter

> Yip all of about 100fps more.. but I bet there is no one that could tell the difference in recoil between those two cartridge loads in the same rifle.


The lower the recoil the easier to shoot a really light rifle. I thought that a 260 AI would be where it's at but that thought is clearly wrong. I am now wondering how light I could go with a single shot rifle ??

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## 300_BLK

Should try the 6.5x48! its awesome!!!

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## gqhoon

> Still waiting for clarification on the barrel length for 6.5Creedmore. Can I get 2800ft/sec comfortably with 140s and a 20" barrel?


The internet says yes.

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....eedmoor-44462/

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## Kiwi Greg

> The internet says yes.
> 
> https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....eedmoor-44462/


Just to confuse you more  :Grin: 

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....7-lapua-43552/

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....7-lapua-45237/

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....eedmoor-38108/

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## Danny

I knew it, a 260 is waaay better. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## 7mmsaum

7x47 Lapua



https://www.accurateshooter.com/guns...cat-cartridge/

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## Wingman

Correction, after studying the badly photocopied paperwork closer it is a .293" neck and .135" Free bore

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## outdoorlad

> @outdoorlad are you running your 6.5x47L on an M mag on that nice Tikka of yours? Any OAL issues if so?


  @Mathias yes a M magazine, no problems, although I haven’t tried the 143/7 ELD’s in it.
The 140amax was fine.

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## Tussock

I just found an old thread from 2012 which had 5x groups from someone 6.5x47L. Compared to my old one, or the one in this thread, it shot like a bag of arse. No better than a good factory rifle. The groups mine shot would fit between the holes in the paper from his. This may explain why he sees them as a waste of time.

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## Wingman

Spent this evening loading up some test rounds finally. Nothing to scientific, just a full case of RL16 which is 41.5gr to the bottom of the neck. A small crunch on the longer 143gr eldx but no real compression or seating rebound. No pressure even on the heavier bullets with this full case charge so its the case volume that restricts any further velocity with RL16 however it still leaves the max charge of 42gr of 2209 velocity in its dust. 
This test is more a max speed test on each brand and weight and will test the extreme spreads. I'll run them over the chrono and put them on paper in the next couple of days. 
The projectiles to test are:

130gr Hornady ELDM
136gr Lapua Scenar L
130gr Sierra Tipped match king
139gr Lapua Scenar
143gr Hornady ELDX
130gr Berger VLD Hunter
123gr Lapua Scenar 
123gr Hornady A-Max

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## Puffin

Nice one Wingman - show us what the RL16 can do!  Any chance of also reporting the CoL with each please so we have all the necessaries for QuickLOAD comparisons?

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## Wingman

Sure I will list this for you here too. Thanks for the email too, Ive been meaning to return one but work has been crazy this week.
Forgot to mention, the 123gr lapua and A-max's are loaded with 39.8gr of 2208 (varget) not RL16. This is the max charge in my rifle for the 123gr bullets. 

I have already run tests with RL16 behind the 123gr bullets and the average velocity from 5 shots with 41.5gr (same load as above-full case) was 2954fps for the A-max and 2948fps with the Scenars. 40gr of 2208 gives approx 3030fps but was showing light pressure.

I have also tested BM 8208 with the 123gr bullets, my max load of 36.5gr  gives me an av of 2910fps with Scenars and 2938fps wit Amax's. 
36.0gr of BM 8208 behind the 130gr TMK gave 2818fps.

Will be shot from my 24" long Trueflite 1-8" twist. All primed with CCI BR-4s and neck sized twice fired brass. 
All seated approx 10 thou off lands.
COAL's as follows: 

130gr Hornady ELDM         2.755"
136gr Lapua Scenar L        2.740"
130gr Sierra TMK              2.775"
139gr Lapua Scenar          2.685"
143gr Hornady ELDX         2.780"
130gr Berger VLD Hunter   2.690"
123gr Lapua Scenar          2.720"
123gr Hornady A-Max        2.725"

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## Wingman

Results; shot prone off front and rear sand bags without any breaks. Barrel got hot but not so hot you couldn't hold your hand on it. Shot in the order of this list:

Cold bore but not cleaned.

123gr Hornady A-Max

Velocities FPS: 2988, 2996, 3007, 3012, 2997  ES: 24 fps






130gr Sierra TMK

Velocities FPS:  2909, 2899, 2899, 2898, 2896   ES: 13 fps (group was .447")





130gr Hornady ELDM

Velocities FPS: 2893, 2888, 2890, 2891, 2892  ES: 5 fps






139gr Lapua Scenar

Velocities FPS: 2858, 2861, 2850, 2852, 2853 ES: 11 fps





136gr Lapua Scenar L

Velocities FPS: 2904, 2898, 2891, 2898, 2899 ES: 13 fps




143gr Hornady ELDX

Velocities FPS: 2855, 2878, 2835, 2832, 2848 ES: 76 fps

Remember this load was lightly compressed due to the longer bullet, this is typical of a compressed load of RL16, the ES jumps and the groups open up. This barrel has shot half inch groups with the ELDX with 39.5gr of RL16 at 2780fps. 




130gr Berger VLD Hunter

Velocities FPS: 2904, 2909, 2904, 2900, 2906 ES: 9fps





123gr Lapua Scenar 

Velocities FPS: 3001, 3008, 2993, 3002, 3003 ES: 15 fps





So the groups were nothing fantastic but that was expected with a full case, the RL16 seems too like a bit of room to move. the TMKs and VLDs both did ok and this has in fact been my hunting load. Id be willing to bet most groups could shrink up to half that with .5gr to 1gr less powder.  It has not been a fussy barrel which give plenty of options but I am seeing a preferred weight of 130gr with the RL16 with 40.5gr to 41.5gr performing really well. 
I should probably get a bunch of other 140gr bullets to test too, they seem to sit best around the 2800-2850fps mark in this barrel.

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## Friwi

The 130 gr Berger vld hunter and target and the 130 gr hornady are what shoot best in my 1 in 8.5" 6.5 creedmoor. But I reload with 2209. I ll ave to try the Reloader 16 at some point.

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## Wingman

@Friwi I have a couple of Creedmoor barrels to drop off for fluting when finish machining them so will drop in some RL16 for you to try.

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## Friwi

Sweet.Thanks.

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