# Hunting > Hunting >  People very sick after eating wild pig

## stug

Three people left in vegetative state after eating suspected poisoned wild boar - NZ Herald

Three adults are lying in a vegetative state in a North Island hospital and may be paralysed for life after eating what is thought to be contaminated wild boar.

The family trio from Putaruru are being treated in critical care units at Waikato Hospital after a severe case of suspected food poisoning.

Shibu Kochummen, his wife Subi Babu and his mother Alekutty Daniel were found by paramedics lying unconscious in their home on Friday night after Kochummen collapsed midway through making an emergency call for help.

The gravely ill husband and wife and mother-in-law are now largely unresponsive and in a vegetative state with only brief spells of consciousness.

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A priest visited the hospital on Sunday to pray for the afflicted family and friends from the Hamilton Marthoma congregation have been making daily bedside visits.

Close friend Joji Varghese said today it was widely suspected they had been poisoned after eating a dish containing contaminated wild boar that Kochummen had shot on a hunting trip.

Varghese said the game meat, which has been taken away for testing, was the only item of food the couple's young children did not eat during their evening meal.

"The neighbours told me within 30 minutes of eating their meal they were throwing up at 15 minute intervals. Shibu rang 111 and fainted through the conversation.

"When the ambulance arrived at the home they found three unconscious people in the house."

He found out a day later his good mate, wife and mother were hooked up to life support machines in hospital after he failed to turn up to his child's baptism on Saturday.

Since then neighbours and members of their Hamilton Anglican church congregation have rallied around the stricken family taking care of the couple's young children and liaising with health, embassy and welfare authorities.

Doctors are understood to be puzzled at the dire impact of the suspected poisoning.

Findings from a detailed toxicology report are expected tomorrow.

Varghese said it was incredibly difficult seeing his dear friend, who had embraced New Zealand life to the full since shifting here five years ago from India, in such a wretched state.

"These were extremely active, full of life people and all of the sudden, nothing," he said, breaking down in tears.

"When I visit him I imagine what's going through his head and I'm telling him to not worry about it, 'We've got the children and we're talking with your family and they'll be here shortly'."

He said medical specialists had indicated it could take up to two months for the poison to clear their bodies.

But there was a possibility if they ever regained consciousness they might suffer long term damage including paralysis or tremors.

The couple's two children - a 7-year-old and 1-year-old - are being looked after by the church group.

But the matter is complicated with the couple's mother, who is on a visitor's visa and does not have medical insurance.

She will need to foot full medical costs for treatment that could take up to six months or more.

The Indian High Commission and Ministry for Vulnerable Children have been approached to help the family.

Relatives in India say they are willing to come to New Zealand to care for their loved ones once they are discharged from hospital.

A plea has gone out to members of the Indian community across Waikato and Auckland for funds to pay for household bills and expenses associated with their health care.

"Please consider this message as a plea to the wider Keralite/ Indian / Kiwi community to support the family in this hour of crisis and uncertainty. The needs of the family are many and funds are few," said an email.

Indian High Commissioner Sanjeev Kohli said embassy staff were working with family and friends to do whatever they could to help.

"We remain deeply concerned," said Kohli. "It's a really unfortunate incident."

He said embassy officials were liaising with family in India as everyone worked out the best way to care for couple's children.

The Waikato District Health Board and the region's medical officer of health have been approached for comment.

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## 223nut

Secondary 1080 poisoning.....?

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## Boar Freak

That's not good.

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## GWH

Wow, be interesting to hear what the findings are of the tox report

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## gadgetman

> Wow, be interesting to hear what the findings are of the tox report


Yeah, want to know to avoid.

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## Marty Henry

> Secondary 1080 poisoning.....?


Very unlikely, if it was so heavily loaded with 1080 it would have been well dead.
Say the pig was 50 kg (a good sized pig) and you ate 1 kg (a bloody lot of meat in one sitting) you would only recieve 1/50 of the poison in the animal. Im no toxicoligist but botulisim is a strong possibility in my opinion.

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## StagDown

> Very unlikely, if it was so heavily loaded with 1080 it would have been well dead.
> Say the pig was 50 kg (a good sized pig) and you ate 1 kg (a bloody lot of meat in one sitting) you would only recieve 1/50 of the poison in the animal. Im no toxicoligist but botulisim is a strong possibility in my opinion.


botulisim doesn't explain the vomiting after 15 minutes does it? thought botulisim took awhile to set in also? Either way this is terrible my heart goes out to them.

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## Boaraxa

sounds serious , wonder how long it was hung for , pork on a hot day can go off same day it was killed

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## res

This report raises more questions than provides answers, the tox report will be welcom

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## 223nut

> Very unlikely, if it was so heavily loaded with 1080 it would have been well dead.
> Say the pig was 50 kg (a good sized pig) and you ate 1 kg (a bloody lot of meat in one sitting) you would only recieve 1/50 of the poison in the animal. Im no toxicoligist but botulisim is a strong possibility in my opinion.


Happy to be corrected, was just a passing thought

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## Marty Henry

@StagDown you are correct it has an incubation period, doesnt cause vomiting or unconciousness. I should have read the article properly, just saw paralysis which is a key symptom and made as ass out of myself.  No matter what its a pretty shit thing to have happen.

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## Blisters

Is there precedence for this surely someone's eaten wild pork before in nz and had this happen if it was the pork.... something fishy is going on! Either way as a new dad my heart goes out to the kids (I'm off to write my will)

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## Gibo

Dont let the truth get in the way guys  :Psmiley:  had to be 1080  :Wink:

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## Mathias

> Dont let the truth get in the way guys  had to be 1080


You must be having a boring day at work Gibo  :XD:

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## Gibo

> You must be having a boring day at work Gibo


Ive been at the airport in Whangarei since 3......plane jets at 5:30  :Sad:

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## Projects

It'll be interesting to see what comes of this. I really hope he (The hunter) didn't find a carcass and think it was easy picking then take it home after an unsuccessful hunt.

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## Blisters

> Ive been at the airport in Whangarei since 3......plane jets at 5:30


Beer! I prescribe beer

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## Gibo

> Beer! I prescribe beer


Yes doc but i have to drive from Tauranga to home when i get there at 8. So il be giving shit on here for a few hours yet  :Grin:

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## Projects

Must be old Winnie up to some tricks?? Trying to make awareness of 1080 poisoning and immigration at the same time. 2 birds 1 stone. 

P.S That is a joke.

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## Russian 22.

2 colleagues became deathly sick after eating a pig once. I'm gonna ask them tomorrow what they were sick with 

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## dansus

Maybe  Brodifacoum? I  think its worse for pigs than 1080 for secondary poison,  so if it was in the boar must have been pretty close to dead

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## Marty Henry

Anti coagulants take much longer to work than this but you are right they are very persistent in tissues taking month's to be excreted. Meaning repeatedly eating meat contaminated with a very very low levels of the material over a long period will result in cumulative poisoning. In this regard its worse than 1080

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## Paddy79

maybe who ever cooked it had enough of every one an thought fuck im a poison and kill us all and did not use enough poison. murder suicide

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## Pointer

Moonpork strikes again

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## Allizdog

Just an observation, but I noticed on 1 News they failed to mention it was wild meat that was consumed.

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## Gibo

It was wild with Trichinosis or most likely listeria meningitis

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## Smiddy

I thought it was common practise to freeze wild pork for a period of  time to kill any bacteria in the meat?


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## Spudattack

Too much curry powder......they will wake up in a few days with severe ring sting.


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## Rushy

> Beer! I prescribe beer


Waikato in fact.

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## 300CALMAN

zinc phosphide poisoning?

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## GravelBen

> Waikato in fact.


Maybe the problem is that they drank Waikato while eating the pig?

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## doinit

> Wow, be interesting to hear what the findings are of the tox report


If it is 1080 then I would imagine it will be kept very quiet..

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## 300_BLK

Did they eat the brain?

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## gadgetman

Gee you lot would get on well with Mrs Gadget. Always asking the impossible question form someone who has no knowledge in the subject.

Just quietly, my money is on aliens.

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## homebrew.357

The dam pig was probably radio active, strdiom 90, all that dust form chinoble , that place in russuer ummm. Any way I hope the poor buggers get better so they came enjoy life in good old N Z.

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## 300CALMAN

> Moonpork strikes again


  @Pointer What the F*** is Moonpork? Never heard of pigs intentionally mooning someone!

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## Munsey

> I thought it was common practise to freeze wild pork for a period of  time to kill any bacteria in the meat?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not something I've herd of ,but interesting enough not many dogs (with exception to Labs) will eat fresh wild pork . Freeze it or cook it they will .

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## 300CALMAN

> Not something I've herd of ,but interesting enough not many dogs (with exception to Labs) will eat fresh wild pork . Freeze it or cook it they will .


Smart dogs labs, and if a lab dosen't want it it really must be something to avoid!

Now would someone tell me what Moonpork is???

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## Allizdog

> If it is 1080 then I would imagine it will be kept very quiet..


You could bet your house on it . . . And win.

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## BruceY

Not a chance mate.....they would have to eat kgs of it neat to be poisoned.....

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## Friwi

If it was 1080, then there would have been and there will be more cases . But this one seems to be a first.
I wonder if they consumed the liver of the pig?
And yes, in france for exemple, any wild bore meat is kept in the freezer for a few months before consumption to kill some parasite present in the meat I believe.

I just asked a mate in france, and the parasite is the trichinosis.
See more here:Trichinosis - Infections - Merck Manuals Consumer Version

After reading the above article, it does not seems to be that , but it is still interesting to read.

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## BruceY

Gibo.. you been on the porangi waipiro AGAIN..... :Thumbsup:

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## Maca49

> Smart dogs labs, and if a lab dosen't want it it really must be something to avoid!
> 
> Now would someone tell me what Moonpork is???


Morepork, more pork,more pork, now there's ya prob! :O O:

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## Allizdog

What would be the effects of eating a TB infected pig?

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## Friwi

Another trail:
Listeria meningitis: Father-of-two, 46, left paralysed after eating undercooked pork chops | Daily Mail Online

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## Russian 22.

> Not something I've herd of ,but interesting enough not many dogs (with exception to Labs) will eat fresh wild pork . Freeze it or cook it they will .


Clay from the YouTube channel has an argentinian dog which eats pigs so maybe it depends on the breed.

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## 300CALMAN

> Morepork, more pork,more pork, now there's ya prob!


 :Psmiley:  oh yes a spelling mistake hehe

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## Pointer

> @Pointer What the F*** is Moonpork? Never heard of pigs intentionally mooning someone!



Moonpork is serious shit. It causes black plague, unwanted pregnancies, unconsciousness and death.

Its just an old myth that floats around the internet about pork going off in moonlight. Completely false of course.

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## Gibo

> If it was 1080, then there would have been and there will be more cases . But this one seems to be a first.
> I wonder if they consumed the liver of the pig?
> And yes, in france for exemple, any wild bore meat is kept in the freezer for a few months before consumption to kill some parasite present in the meat I believe.
> 
> I just asked a mate in france, and the parasite is the trichinosis.
> See more here:Trichinosis - Infections - Merck Manuals Consumer Version
> 
> After reading the above article, it does not seems to be that , but it is still interesting to read.





> Another trail:
> Listeria meningitis: Father-of-two, 46, left paralysed after eating undercooked pork chops | Daily Mail Online


Are you just reading my post and googlefooing it?

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## doinit

> Not a chance mate.....they would have to eat kgs of it neat to be poisoned.....


Please tell me your not serious.

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## stingray

> Moonpork is serious shit. It causes black plague, unwanted pregnancies, unconsciousness and death.
> 
> Its just an old myth that floats around the internet about pork going off in moonlight. Completely false of course.


Not only pork, my old man wouldn't kill a sheep or hang it in the full moon, ( no killing shed) so out the back under the willows hung in muslin. Reckoned the full moon meat/fat would not set... Bullshit / old wives talle maybe ...not sure myself  just the way he did it ...and the way I was brought up to do it.  

Any way, bone taint as I call it , is when the meat doesn't get cooled fast enough and rots / goes off! Especially wild pork ..well in my experince dogged pork ..stuck and packed out whole the lion and throat area in summer doesn't get enough time to cool ..chucked on the back of the truck ...drive home in 20 degree heat and the loin will be pink and unpleasant.

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## Rushy

> Moonpork is serious shit. It causes black plague, unwanted pregnancies, unconsciousness and death.
> 
> Its just an old myth that floats around the internet about pork going off in moonlight. Completely false of course.


Unwanted pregnancies?  Surely that is the Pork Sword that does that.

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## Pointer

@stingray bone taint is real, as you say it's caused by not cooling the carcass as quick as you can, or leaving it overnight with the gutbag in it and recovering it a day later - they take a long time to cool with the guts in.  But not hanging it in full moonlight for fear of moonpork had been proven false. There isn't enough uv or heat in moonlight to be a problem.

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## kiwijames

> Not only pork, my old man wouldn't kill a sheep or hang it in the full moon, ( no killing shed) so out the back under the willows hung in muslin. Reckoned the full moon meat/fat would not set... Bullshit / old wives talle maybe ...not sure myself  just the way he did it ...and the way I was brought up to do it.  
> 
> Any way, bone taint as I call it , is when the meat doesn't get cooled fast enough and rots / goes off! Especially wild pork ..well in my experince dogged pork ..stuck and packed out whole the lion and throat area in summer doesn't get enough time to cool ..chucked on the back of the truck ...drive home in 20 degree heat and the loin will be pink and unpleasant.


My Grandfather would also warn me not to hang pork or mutton in the moonlight.

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## Friwi

@Gibo, I did not realised you already talked about it. At least it gives a few more info about what those two things are and do.

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## Tommy

I just heard on the radio that the tox screen results will be made public this morning. Lock in your votes, BANZAI!

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## upnorth uplander

> Moonpork is serious shit. It causes black plague, unwanted pregnancies, unconsciousness and death.
> 
> Its just an old myth that floats around the internet about pork going off in moonlight. Completely false of course.


Is it false ??

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## Sarvo

> Is it false ??


I have lost meat hung in bush - but filtered Moon still got it.
Use Ponga frongs cover now if I have to leave overnight.

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## Marty Henry

> I just heard on the radio that the tox screen results will be made public this morning. Lock in your votes, BANZAI!


Thats quite quick, they must have had an idea of what to look for, otherwise saying test this for poison means thousands of different  tests would need to be run.

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## deer243

End of the day the media is now making a big deal its a Wild Boar that may have caused this. It doesnt matter , if its the meat its pork, could have been chicken or fish from the supermarket. If its undercooked you may get sick, or not looked after before eating etc like any meat you going to consume you risk getting food posioning.  Already people on the net on the band wagon for banning pighunting as wild pig not safe to eat. Its all Bull shit, its as safe as any other meat as long as you cook it properly etc.  So much wild game is consumed in this country its not funny. Some havnt been taken care of before eating as good as it should but more people get food posioning by chicken than what someone has shot in the bush.
Its all about how its prepared and cooked, simple as that

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> I just heard on the radio that the tox screen results will be made public this morning. Lock in your votes, BANZAI!


If it has anything at all to do with 1080 you can bet your bottom dollar we won't hear about it..

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## Biggun708

> If it has anything at all to do with 1080 you can bet your bottom dollar we won't hear about it..


And JFK was shot by the CIA... The conspiracy theorists continue.. Put your tinfoil hats on people...

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## Paddy79

> And JFK was shot by the CIA... The conspiracy theorists continue.. Put your tinfoil hats on people...


Armadillo shell works better  :Thumbsup:

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## Maca49

Geeze Friwi probably just Mad Pig desease! Talking UK!!

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## 7mmwsm

They are probably just on the dole. Half of those bastards lay about like they are in a coma.

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## Cordite

*"The neighbours told me within 30 minutes of eating their meal they were throwing up at 15 minute intervals. Shibu rang 111 and fainted through the conversation."*

Toxin-releasing bacteria and other food poisoning organisms do *NOT* fit the bill with such (1) short time between ingestion and (2) very severe effect.  

Look for yourself on this useful chart:  http://www.foodborneillness.com/incubation-ranges.pdf

Accidental spicing with hemlock could however fit the bill, what with paralysis.

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2015/0.../#.Wg4axEqWb4c

*Interesting quote from WebMD, about eating animals that in turn have eaten hemlock:*
(From:  https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...ntname=hemlock )
"Hemlock is a very poisonous plant. In fact, all parts of the plant are toxic. Hemlock is most poisonous during the early stages of growth in the spring, but it is dangerous at all stages of growth. *The poisons in hemlock are so deadly that people have died after eating game birds that had eaten hemlock seeds*."
"Hemlock is native to Europe and western Asia and was introduced into North America as an ornamental plant. It is frequently found in the US and southern Canada. Hemlock typically grows near fences, roadsides, ditches, abandoned construction sites, pastures, crops, and fields, where it can be confused with harmless plants. Accidental poisonings have occurred when people mistook the root for parsnip, leaves for parsley, or seeds for anise."

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## Blisters

Ive got half a pig in the freezer atm..... should I still eat it?

Jokes of course I'm going to

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## Nibblet

> Ive got half a pig in the freezer atm..... should I still eat it?
> 
> Jokes of course I'm going to


No you shouldn't, it is haram.

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## Pointer

The way the media goes on about it, there's going to be a ban on pigs next. "The war on boars" Doc will call it

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## MB

> The way the media goes on about it, there's going to be a ban on pigs next. "The war on boars" Doc will call it


I prefer the Boar War  :Have A Nice Day:

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## 223nut

Tutu poisoning??

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## GWH

So....has the tox results been reported as yet?

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## kotuku

hemlock has been used for suicide/execution since ancient greek egyptian .roman times.given pigs are omnivores -who knows it could have eaten anything from animal carcasses?grassgrub treated pasture ,tutu or any bloody thing and its sheer coincidence this bloke shot this ine and its turned out to be an ardent student of karma.
Trademe message boards are full of hysterical twats and c ts on it .was going to chip in but thought fuck it dont lower yourself.
anyone here with heart problems -used digoxin??thats originally derived from the common garden variety foxglove with its component digitalis.dont ingest a feed though to "see what happens"leave that to thick shits.
Hmmmmmmaybe mr piggy ingested a dose of a specially prepared cannabis crop???
 actually in hindsight im wondering if ESR or national poisons center are in fact have trouble identifying the toxin and may have had to go overseas for assistance -wouldnt be the first time.

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## Russian 22.

Hopefully the boar war turns out for us like the emu war did for the Australians 

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## Rushy

According to the news tonight they are strongly suspecting botulism. Turns out it may not have even been the pork.

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## Tahr

_Doctors believe three people left gravely ill after eating wild boar are suffering from botulism, a Waikato Hospital spokeswoman says.

"While we don't know the exact cause and source of this illness, we now believe it is botulism. The three patients are responding to botulism anti-toxin and are recovering in hospital.

"We have sent samples off to a specialist centre in Queensland for testing but it may take several weeks before we get the results. We have no evidence to believe there is any public health issue."_

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## kiwijames

> _Doctors believe three people left gravely ill after eating wild boar are suffering from botulism, a Waikato Hospital spokeswoman says.
> 
> "While we don't know the exact cause and source of this illness, we now believe it is botulism. The three patients are responding to botulism anti-toxin and are recovering in hospital.
> 
> "We have sent samples off to a specialist centre in Queensland for testing but it may take several weeks before we get the results. We have no evidence to believe there is any public health issue."_


Theres a silver lining there. At least they should come out wrinkle free

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## Shearer

No. Not Botox   @kiwijames
Wait.
I have just been schooled in what Botox actually is....

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## jakewire

Close, but I'm just not quite sure that botoxism is the same as botulism, but then again, ya knew that. :Have A Nice Day:

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## kiwijames

> No. Not Botox   @kiwijames
> Wait.
> I have just been schooled in what Botox actually is....


 *bo*tulism *tox*in

The shit people do

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## ANOTHERHUNTER

isnt botulism from badly cured meat ?

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## 300CALMAN

> Theres a silver lining there. At least they should come out wrinkle free


Only on the inside  :Sick:  

I have seen a few ducks with it. fracking nasty.

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## Pointer

Seen lakes full of ducks with it in Aussie. All unable to hold their head up drowning in the pond  :Sad:

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## kotuku

> Close, but I'm just not quite sure that botoxism is the same as botulism, but then again, ya knew that.


botox is a minor surgical procedure involving the localised injection of minute doses of the botulism toxin around mouth and eyes to temporarily paralyse minute facial mucles.repeats usually required every 3/12
hence the apparent smoothing out of wrinkles etc albeit temporarily.
Note this is a controlled dose of the toxin-should you of course have a gutsful of crook shellfish_mussels are numero uno, that is enough toxin on board to hibernate a very large PMT stricken grizzly bear in perpetuity 
 for you my human friend usually an appointment on the undertakers embalming table where the words "now stay still this wont hurt too much" are entirely superfluous as you are well in transit to the other side! judging by a brief eyeball mk1 scan of the latest MSM Stuff articles it would appearmy previous sentiments could be viable-it may be a variation of nast bastardus botuli ,but cuzzies over the water rquired to confirm kiwi suspicions.
regardless me thinks tis a one off and a lot of the present hysteria is overeacting and unwarranted.

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## veitnamcam

I didnt know there was any botulism antitoxin?
A while back i was bottling some Kahawai and was shit scared of poisoning my family so did extensive googling on the subject.
Everything I came up with on botulism was that there is pretty much no cure?

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## GWH

> According to the news tonight they are strongly suspecting botulism. Turns out it may not have even been the pork.


Very possibly leftover reheated rice would be my pick

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## 7mmwsm

> Very possibly leftover reheated rice would be my pick


Yeah but being poisoned by a wild boar sounds a bit more sensational than dodgy rice. Even the media would have trouble dressing that up.

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## Marty Henry

> According to the news tonight they are strongly suspecting botulism. Turns out it may not have even been the pork.


No suprises there

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## Cordite

> According to the news tonight they are strongly suspecting botulism. Turns out it may not have even been the pork.


Makes sense.  If it was the pork it cannot be botulism.  Botulinum toxin does not work that fast.  Not sure what ingesting megadoses of it would do though, perhaps faster acting???  Don't know.  Still, on the face of it, botulism does not fit the most obvious evidence and it's striking how the victims all succumbed straight after that pork meal (if it was from an earlier ingested substance, you might expect a bit more "spread" in the timing of their respective collapses).

One vet has a very striking contribution regarding the cause, which would fit with the pig meat.  Pig hunters with dogs beware:

"Vet Jenni Peterson said dogs suffer from an illness commonly known as "Go Slow" when they eat wild pork.
Ms Peterson said within minutes they collapse and get the shakes.
She said it was worrisome very little was known about the toxin, and there had been no investigation into whether humans can also suffer."

From:  https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/natio...ting-wild-pork

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## vulcannz

Something smells seriously fishy, makes you wonder if the conspiracy theories might be true:




> Health authorities *were yet to confirm botulism was responsible for their illness, but it's the only thing they're testing for and family members are responding to antitoxins for botulism.*
> 
> Samples had been sent to a lab in Queensland, Australia, but there was no timeframe on when they were due back, Varghese said. 
> 
> "*At this stage there are no test results showing that it is botulism*, so what do they do when you can't pinpoint what it is and what is happening?


How long do these tests take? Wouldn't they be urgent given the families critical health? Why are they only testing for botulism?

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## Sarvo

They were refused ACC too I read
The older woman still ill

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## Jit

I was just talking to a mate about this issue. The media has moved on which makes everyone happy, except those who hunt and eat our quarry.  This matter needs to be addressed properly in order that appropriate action can be taken and safeguards put in place. 
As everyone has acknowledged this doesn't feel right in terms of speed of effect and the symptoms if we are to believe the media.  It may have nothing at all to do with hunting for all we know and these poor folk  have corned into contact with another illicit subsrance and the pig taking the blame.

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## tetawa

Could be related to the "toxic sea slugs" that killed the dogs on Auckland's beaches and dead fish floating on the Firth of Thames a few years ago. The findings there never came into the public arena.

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## 223nut

One other thought that I had on this issue was what sauce did they use on the pork? Home made tomato sauce (gud old watties) some badly fermentented citrus chutney...

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## SiB

I thought the previously cooked rice, subsequently reheated was the suspect?

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## Carlsen Highway

The anti 1080 people have well and truly clouded this situation with conspiracy theories. But the symptoms match botulism and they are responding to botulism anti-toxins. So its botulism.

ACC does not cover cases like this, involving bacteria. The people who suffered from the bad water up North were not covered by ACC either.

How they got it would be interesting to know, bad meat handling (botulism is a bacteria that lives in the soil) or whatever. But it is rare in NZ, last case was in 1983. So I wouldn't worry too much. 
Last case I remember being told about was a chap who fired up his dinner on a frying pan that hadn't been washed in 10 days. Succumbed to severe death shortly thereafter. Like within half an hour. 
So botulism can work very quickly. 
I worry more about tainted cutlery and plates in a hut, than about the meat off a freshly killed wild pig or deer.  

About the most you can take from this case so far, is that curry will not kill botulism.

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## Rushy

Point of order Carlsen!  How does a severe death differ from say a mild death?  I am taking the piss but I really had never considered that there were differing degrees of death until I read your post.

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## Taff

I was always told "death can be fatal, if taken seriously "

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## shooternz

I suppose there are fast and relatively painless deaths i.e. bullet to the head, quick and painful going through a combine harvester, long and drawn out  with a lot of pain like cancer in your weanie,
take your pick there are some nasty ways to checkout, food poisoning is one of the most unpleasant ways to go

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## Cordite

> I was always told "death can be fatal, if taken seriously "


 @Taff

No, if taken internally.

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## Cordite

How to die from botulism:

Catch a fish, leave it on the ground and get soil into the gills.  - still safe to eat

Boil it too short time, not killing off the anaerobic (hardy) spores.  - still safe to eat

Pickle it, but with insufficient sugar / vinegar in and leave the airtight container aside for a few weeks.  - getting there boys!

Eat it.  - Die

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## kotuku

> The anti 1080 people have well and truly clouded this situation with conspiracy theories. But the symptoms match botulism and they are responding to botulism anti-toxins. So its botulism.
> 
> ACC does not cover cases like this, involving bacteria. The people who suffered from the bad water up North were not covered by ACC either.
> 
> How they got it would be interesting to know, bad meat handling (botulism is a bacteria that lives in the soil) or whatever. But it is rare in NZ, last case was in 1983. So I wouldn't worry too much. 
> Last case I remember being told about was a chap who fired up his dinner on a frying pan that hadn't been washed in 10 days. Succumbed to severe death shortly thereafter. Like within half an hour. 
> So botulism can work very quickly. 
> I worry more about tainted cutlery and plates in a hut, than about the meat off a freshly killed wild pig or deer.  
> 
> About the most you can take from this case so far, is that curry will not kill botulism.


No it is not botulism until such time as the specimen results are received from Australia that provide incontrovertible proof.this theory of it looks like a duck ,quacks like a duck flys like a duck 'is not 100%applicable and i dont give a rats arse who disagrees.we see this all the bloody time with mental illness -people who diagnose cause they think the symptoms fit a specific type .WRONG.this sort of shit is rampant these days due to the internet and the ability to self diagnose often due to quack sites.

----------


## deer243

> No it is not botulism until such time as the specimen results are received from Australia that provide incontrovertible proof.this theory of it looks like a duck ,quacks like a duck flys like a duck 'is not 100%applicable and i dont give a rats arse who disagrees.we see this all the bloody time with mental illness -people who diagnose cause they think the symptoms fit a specific type .WRONG.this sort of shit is rampant these days due to the internet and the ability to self diagnose often due to quack sites.


+1 Its not confirmed it is botullism and some experts think its not as some of the symptoms dont match (ie going into a coma so quick). Carlsen is jumping the gun and is a fool to say IT IS botulism when all hes going on are some experts that are saying it is when in actual fact no results have confirmed anything and until that time it MAYBE botulism end of

----------


## vulcannz

> The anti 1080 people have well and truly clouded this situation with conspiracy theories. But the symptoms match botulism and they are responding to botulism anti-toxins. So its botulism.


The symptoms don't seem to match food poisoning botulism though?




> Signs and symptoms of foodborne botulism *typically begin between 12 and 36 hours after the toxin gets into your body.* But, the start of symptoms can range from a few hours to several days, depending on the amount of toxin ingested. Signs and symptoms of foodborne botulism include:
> 
> Difficulty swallowing or speaking
> Dry mouth
> Facial weakness on both sides of the face
> Blurred or double vision
> Drooping eyelids
> Trouble breathing
> Nausea, vomiting and abdominal cramps
> Paralysis


FWIW 1080 poisoning symptoms seem different too, however some rodenticides do list coma's as a symptom of poisoning so who knows.

As for responding to botulism treatments you're a smart guy you know about cause and effect relationships (or not). These people are most likely on IV fluids, maybe oxygen (useful for cyanide poisoning) it could be there system is flushing whatever they have out from that. Doctors are assuming its the antitoxins that are working. Until that lab report comes back they are just assuming/guessing.

Don't you find it odd the lab report is taking so long - it's almost a month now?

and this could backfire on hunters, if it did turn out to be secondary poisoning say from feratox then it may lead to tighter restrictions on meat recovery and where people can hunt.

----------


## Woody

From  the outset, the family spokesman indicated the test would be carried out in Australia, and results would take a  month. I do not believe for one second that the cause is 1080, but rather a form of food poisoning. I contacted police the day after the initial news and suggested they investigate contents of the home and kitchen where the meal was prepared. They did not seem too interested. Whether the DHB has investigated the home or not I don't know.

----------


## Carlsen Highway

Well, a fool I may be. But considering no one on here is a goddamn doctor, I will go with the opinion of people who are for the time being, until I get my own PHD sorted out. 
And you just have to listen to some of these anti-1080 people sometimes and you realise that you really wouldnt want to be roped to them if you were mountain climbing.

----------


## Tahr

> From  the outset, the family spokesman indicated the test would be carried out in Australia, and results would take a  month. I do not believe for one second that the cause is 1080, but rather a form of food poisoning. I contacted police the day after the initial news and suggested they investigate contents of the home and kitchen where the meal was prepared. They did not seem too interested. Whether the DHB has investigated the home or not I don't know.


Interesting. Was your advise to them based on gut instinct or some sort of particular expertise/qualifications that you have?

----------


## vulcannz

> Well, a fool I may be. But considering no one on here is a goddamn doctor, I will go with the opinion of people who are for the time being, until I get my own PHD sorted out. 
> And you just have to listen to some of these anti-1080 people sometimes and you realise that you really wouldnt want to be roped to them if you were mountain climbing.


If you put your faith entirely in doctors then you've got some hard times in your future. Doctors are people just like the rest of us, they are open to mistakes and other influences. You also seem to be hung up on the anti-1080 thing, I and others have noted it doesn't sound like 1080.

It doesn't take a PHD to look at the symptoms and processes that happen with botulism toxin. It takes time to kick in, if those people ingested it from a meal it would have to have been one from a day or so earlier. If that were the case then you would expect the symptoms for each adult to kick in over a more diverse period of time. In this case the 3 adults came down ill simultaneously - which would indicate it came from that recent meal.

Here's a tip from an old fella, question doctors. It may save your life one day. I just had a work colleague diagnosed with an ailment by NZ doctors (cancer related), their option was surgery - nothing else. She hold dual citizenship, so she went back to her original country and the doctors there told here no it was easily dealt with with localized radiation treatment. She got 3 different opinions. She's back in NZ now all cleared up.

When a doctor says "we're only checking for botulism" that tells me they've already made up their mind. They have made an assumption, not a diagnosis.

----------


## Woody

> Interesting. Was your advise to them based on gut instinct or some sort of particular expertise/qualifications that you have?


The effects on the victims did not match my understanding of poisoning symptoms of any poison commonly used in the bush. Nor have I ever heard of botulism being caused to a pig hunter in NZ. There was more than one hunter according to the  news, yet no one outside that particular home  or meal reported any effects. I doubt the entire pig was consumed, and the pig must have been alive when shot, so if any artificial poison  was present in the pig, the meal consumers would have a much lesser portion than  what may have been contained in the entire pig body when the pig was alive.
The assumption that the pig itself caused the illness does'nt ring true to me.

----------


## Tahr

> If you put your faith entirely in doctors then you've got some hard times in your future. Doctors are people just like the rest of us, they are open to mistakes and other influences. You also seem to be hung up on the anti-1080 thing, I and others have noted it doesn't sound like 1080.
> 
> It doesn't take a PHD to look at the symptoms and processes that happen with botulism toxin. It takes time to kick in, if those people ingested it from a meal it would have to have been one from a day or so earlier. If that were the case then you would expect the symptoms for each adult to kick in over a more diverse period of time. In this case the 3 adults came down ill simultaneously - which would indicate it came from that recent meal.
> 
> Here's a tip from an old fella, question doctors. It may save your life one day. I just had a work colleague diagnosed with an ailment by NZ doctors (cancer related), their option was surgery - nothing else. She hold dual citizenship, so she went back to her original country and the doctors there told here no it was easily dealt with with localized radiation treatment. She got 3 different opinions. She's back in NZ now all cleared up.
> 
> When a doctor says "we're only checking for botulism" that tells me they've already made up their mind. They have made an assumption, not a diagnosis.


Maybe. But in this "pig" case internet jockeys are attempting to make a diagnosis with incomplete, subjective or imagined information. The Dr's are making it with all of the information to hand and on the back of specialised medical diagnostic training, at least four years of intense studies and the considered opinions of colleagues and specialists. I know who I would put my faith in.

----------


## outdoorlad

Someone ring Dr House & that hot sidekick chick, they will sort it.

----------


## Carlsen Highway

> If you put your faith entirely in doctors then you've got some hard times in your future. Doctors are people just like the rest of us, they are open to mistakes and other influences. You also seem to be hung up on the anti-1080 thing, I and others have noted it doesn't sound like 1080.
> 
> It doesn't take a PHD to look at the symptoms and processes that happen with botulism toxin. It takes time to kick in, if those people ingested it from a meal it would have to have been one from a day or so earlier. If that were the case then you would expect the symptoms for each adult to kick in over a more diverse period of time. In this case the 3 adults came down ill simultaneously - which would indicate it came from that recent meal.
> 
> Here's a tip from an old fella, question doctors. It may save your life one day. I just had a work colleague diagnosed with an ailment by NZ doctors (cancer related), their option was surgery - nothing else. She hold dual citizenship, so she went back to her original country and the doctors there told here no it was easily dealt with with localized radiation treatment. She got 3 different opinions. She's back in NZ now all cleared up.
> 
> When a doctor says "we're only checking for botulism" that tells me they've already made up their mind. They have made an assumption, not a diagnosis.



You may be right. But I question internet characters with strong opinions that are based on nothing at all, before a doctor.

----------


## kotuku

> You may be right. But I question internet characters with strong opinions that are based on nothing at all, before a doctor.


if youre taking a pot at me carlsen -i dont give a fat rats arse.my credentials are well known on this forum and i tell it how i sees it .
as started Is it not curious no one else was poisoned by eating this particular pig IIRC 3hunters actually secured the bloody thing.
secondly Isnt it curious that this by all accounts seems a one off .given the extreme popularity of pig hunting as a national pastime,I'd have expected to hear more reports of apparent botulism in pig hunters or dogs over the years .dunno about you but myaself im an avid reader and conversationalist and all the info ive gained on pig hunting has never mentioned botulism.ive read of cases where porcine TBwas suspected so carcasses were discarde(often characteriased by nodules of tumours attached to vital organs.
 BTW beofre I go -to all you cynics and doubters re doctors -if you dont like medicos ,try it out for yourselves -walk a mile in our shoes.
 believe me not a day goes past when i dont smile at at least one knowall pain in the arse,or stand there mute as a some knowall demanding petulant wee arsehole gives me an illfounded or unwarranted spray.some of you would have no bloody idea the filthy abuse thats hurled at us or the actual physical violence we suffer .
 no we dont reply with taser or pepperspray ,nor sidearm ,though its fucking tempting!
 wht do you think this country has a shortage of Drs and nurses.
Nuff fucking said :Pissed Off:

----------


## 300CALMAN

Botulism or other bacteria could have easily been introduced between him killing and them eating the pig. Weather it was bad preparation, rotten filth on cooking utensils or bad curry paste there are many possibilities. Food science 101, food can kill you.

----------


## Carlsen Highway

> if youre taking a pot at me carlsen -i dont give a fat rats arse.my credentials are well known on this forum and i tell it how i sees it .
> as started Is it not curious no one else was poisoned by eating this particular pig IIRC 3hunters actually secured the bloody thing.
> secondly Isnt it curious that this by all accounts seems a one off .given the extreme popularity of pig hunting as a national pastime,I'd have expected to hear more reports of apparent botulism in pig hunters or dogs over the years .dunno about you but myaself im an avid reader and conversationalist and all the info ive gained on pig hunting has never mentioned botulism.ive read of cases where porcine TBwas suspected so carcasses were discarde(often characteriased by nodules of tumours attached to vital organs.
>  BTW beofre I go -to all you cynics and doubters re doctors -if you dont like medicos ,try it out for yourselves -walk a mile in our shoes.
>  believe me not a day goes past when i dont smile at at least one knowall pain in the arse,or stand there mute as a some knowall demanding petulant wee arsehole gives me an illfounded or unwarranted spray.some of you would have no bloody idea the filthy abuse thats hurled at us or the actual physical violence we suffer .
>  no we dont reply with taser or pepperspray ,nor sidearm ,though its fucking tempting!
>  wht do you think this country has a shortage of Drs and nurses.
> Nuff fucking said


No, I was commenting to Vulcannz. His post is quoted within mine.

----------


## cambo

My 2C on this.......

Botulism has an incubation period greater than what it took "whatever" to overcome the family.

WHO | Botulism
"Symptoms of foodborne botulism

Botulinum toxins are neurotoxic and therefore affect the nervous system. Foodborne botulism is characterized by descending, flaccid paralysis that can cause respiratory failure. Early symptoms include marked fatigue, weakness and vertigo, usually followed by blurred vision, dry mouth and difficulty in swallowing and speaking. Vomiting, diarrhoea, constipation and abdominal swelling may also occur. The disease can progress to weakness in the neck and arms, after which the respiratory muscles and muscles of the lower body are affected. There is no fever and no loss of consciousness.
The symptoms are not caused by the bacterium itself, but by the toxin produced by the bacterium. Symptoms usually appear within 12 to 36 hours (within a minimum and maximum range of 4 hours to 8 days) after exposure. Incidence of botulism is low, but the mortality rate is high if prompt diagnosis and appropriate, immediate treatment (early administration of antitoxin and intensive respiratory care) are not given. The disease can be fatal in 5 to 10% of cases."

Family were overcome within 15mins of consuming the meat and lost consciousness very quickly. Botulism doesn't ring true, and even the WHO agrees it is unlikely to be botulism.
And with the DHB refusing to release the toxicity report that was requested under the OIA, it looks more like someone doesn't want the truth to come out.
If it was a poison, then whoever was responsible could face criminal charges.

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## muzza

https://envirowatchrangitikei.wordpr...ial-diagnosis/

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## 7mmwsm

I was always lead to believe that listeria (not sure if that's how its spelt) was the main disease associated with pork. 
Wouldn't have a clue what the symptoms are though.

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## Maca49

My sons a Doctor, reading the bullshit here on not trusting a doctor, I hope when you really get ill you don't scurry off to some poor Doc that's never met you before and has no history on you for treatment??
Go to your naturopath, or maybe post on here for advice or just curl up and die!! :O O:

----------


## vulcannz

> My sons a Doctor, reading the bullshit here on not trusting a doctor, I hope when you really get ill you don't scurry off to some poor Doc that's never met you before and has no history on you for treatment??
> Go to your naturopath, or maybe post on here for advice or just curl up and die!!


It's not about not trusting a doctor, it's about questioning and pushing for accurate diagnosis and accurate treatment. As for bullshit I almost died because I didn't push/question a doctor once (infected gall bladder, where overseas they remove it - but in NZ they give it a few weeks to see what happens... say hello to gangrene!). Since then I have started questioning doctors when I don't think they are acting appropriately (example our 3rd kid was diagnosed with severe G6PD deficiency , doctor had no inclination to test the other 2 until I asked for it).

As you get older you realize people of all trades are not perfect, and you need to take some responsibility for your health.

Or maybe your son is absolutely perfect and makes no mistakes?

----------


## Cordite

> Someone ring Dr House & that hot sidekick chick, they will sort it.


Yes, they'll go and break into the family's house and look through the kitchen herbs.

----------


## Cordite

> It's not about not trusting a doctor, it's about questioning and pushing for accurate diagnosis and accurate treatment. As for bullshit I almost died because I didn't push/question a doctor once (infected gall bladder, where overseas they remove it - but in NZ they give it a few weeks to see what happens... say hello to gangrene!). Since then I have started questioning doctors when I don't think they are acting appropriately (example our 3rd kid was diagnosed with severe G6PD deficiency , doctor had no inclination to test the other 2 until I asked for it).
> 
> As you get older you realize people of all trades are not perfect, and you need to take some responsibility for your health.
> 
> Or maybe your son is absolutely perfect and makes no mistakes?


 @Maca49 and @vulcannz

Well, according to the impression gained by @berg243 from his knowledgeable (doctor) sister, doctors are total retards because they occasionally write "L" when they were meant to write "R".

----------


## Maca49

> It's not about not trusting a doctor, it's about questioning and pushing for accurate diagnosis and accurate treatment. As for bullshit I almost died because I didn't push/question a doctor once (infected gall bladder, where overseas they remove it - but in NZ they give it a few weeks to see what happens... say hello to gangrene!). Since then I have started questioning doctors when I don't think they are acting appropriately (example our 3rd kid was diagnosed with severe G6PD deficiency , doctor had no inclination to test the other 2 until I asked for it).
> 
> As you get older you realize people of all trades are not perfect, and you need to take some responsibility for your health.
> 
> Or maybe your son is absolutely perfect and makes no mistakes?


I guess being around doctors you appreciate how caring they are and what they need to learn on an ongoing basis, so I think you need a good relationship with your doctor and don't be scared to ask for a second opinion. A good doctor should ask his fellow practitioners for that if he's unsure. Much like you I had a bad experience with a doctor which was life threatening. I took the opportunity to find another and for the passed 20 years, yep I'm getting older, Ive enjoyed excellent health care with a great doctor. Not trusting them, ask my sister in law today as she starts a battle with cancer, once again a good doctor and the healthcare system will see her through!

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## timattalon

It is a fair idea to question doctors. Asking questions does not mean that you think they are wrong. It is smart to question them. When the doctor has the correct diagnosis, the answers you will get will give you more information about what is happening to your body and what to expect, what to look out for and when you should return if something that is unexpected occurs. And if the questions raise information that affects the accuracy of the diagnosis, such as unnoticed symptoms or symptoms the patient has dismissed as "normal" the Doctor is then able to gather more information. 

Doctors can get it wrong sometimes. I would point out that some of this is because the patient may have left out vital clues for diagnosis as they were unaware of the importance of a minor symptom or may not have realised something was a symptom. And occasionally Doctors prove they were human too. At the end of the day, questions about what is happening will not harm a correct diagnosis and will provide you with confirmation and information, and these same qustions can clarify why the doctor is suspecting that diagnosis, and may be ale to verify or correct any diagnosis they have.

It is your health, and you should want to know as much about it as you can.

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## gadgetman

> My sons a Doctor, reading the bullshit here on not trusting a doctor, I hope when you really get ill you don't scurry off to some poor Doc that's never met you before and has no history on you for treatment??
> Go to your naturopath, or maybe post on here for advice or just curl up and die!!


It is not about all doctors being bad. It is about pushing a lot of them for proper diagnosis. I am missing a brother-in-law because of one, and I live in pretty constant pain and don't know if I'll be able to stand up each morning because of others. It is like any profession/trade. 

Like anything, if it doesn't fit your gut feeling and what you know vote with your feet and go elsewhere. In this instance there is a group of doctors that are ignoring the warnings of another group of doctors and experts and other reasonably informed and logical people.

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## Tahr

There is a big difference between sensibly seeking a second opinion from professionals or pushing your Dr for more information to what has been the main topic of this thread.

This thread seems to have been about second guessing with a paucity of information and no or little medical expertise, and building conspiracies out of nothing. There is an element of wishful thinking too...that the illness was somehow linked to poison residue. 

In my work I hear peoples delusions and alternative truths all day long. Some of these threads are like ground hog day to me.  :Have A Nice Day: 

But please don't tell me to simply not read them if I don't like them. There would be no fun in that.

----------


## vulcannz

> There is a big difference between sensibly seeking a second opinion from professionals or pushing your Dr for more information to what has been the main topic of this thread.
> 
> This thread seems to have been about second guessing with a paucity of information and no or little medical expertise, and building conspiracies out of nothing. There is an element of wishful thinking too...that the illness was somehow linked to poison residue.


I am a professional in my field (IT) and a lot of my work involves troubleshooting.

So from that point of view two things stood out too me:
 - the doctors are not seeking tests outside of botulism
 - the tests are taking up to a month

Sure some people are talking up the 1080 aspect and that is tin foil hat stuff. But lets get away from the hunting conspiracies, what if this was a case of poisoning where the husband found out his missus was cheating and dumped a sachet full of rat poison in their food in a murder/suicide setup? It's not unheard of in that ethnic group for such radical actions. It just seems very narrow minded to follow one potential answer.

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## kimjon

Oh Christ, I willed myself not to read this bullshit...but couldn't resist reading all 9 pages from start to finish. I feel dumber for having done so, and I'm pretty sure I've lowered my IQ a few points now by association.

Kj

----------


## Tahr

> I am a professional in my field (IT) and a lot of my work involves troubleshooting.
> 
> So from that point of view two things stood out too me:
>  - the doctors are not seeking tests outside of botulism
>  - the tests are taking up to a month
> 
> Sure some people are talking up the 1080 aspect and that is tin foil hat stuff. But lets get away from the hunting conspiracies, what if this was a case of poisoning where the husband found out his missus was cheating and dumped a sachet full of rat poison in their food in a murder/suicide setup? It's not unheard of in that ethnic group for such radical actions. It just seems very narrow minded to follow one potential answer.


I give the health services and the Police a lot of credit for problem solving and getting to the bottom of things. I'm sure that both are looking at this from every aspect and using all of the information that they have to hand. 

It's most likely a flawed assumption to think that either is on a single track, just as its probably a flawed assumption to think that all of the information available is in the public's hands. 

The assumption that certain scenarios are likely because that is what a particular "ethnic group" do is too far out there for me...but you might want to ring the Police and suggest it to them. They might not have thought of that.

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## Cordite

Discussion in a forum is very much an exercise in brainstorming - resulting in good and bad ideas, and in criticisms of both.  Nothing wrong with that.

It is a most curious case and the _apparent_ time window for the couple going down with poisoning does not fit with clostridium botulinum toxin ingestion, nor does their loss of consciousness.  

It carries little weight to cite that the treating team have the whole picture when the evidence that _is_ available _appears to_ exclude botulism. Not reassuring for hunters.

----------


## kotuku

yup macca i llikes ya style .same happened with me recently where my locum GP being a very honest prick said he was not trained in the arts of psych medicine so was not qualified to comment on my mental state and fitness to go back to work.line management in accordance with ACC protocols argued that he should until i found a very devious back door way round it.He became quite distressed so i told himand one of the "managers"that i admired his bloody honesty and id have him on my team anytime.

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## Maca49

Yep they ain’t god, but don’t knock em, they’re the first buggers you go to when your I’ll. Better they know you before you get sick instead of after! 
Had my Doc for 20 plus years, he’s changed my health so I don’t relay on daily doses of bad stuff, he’s been brutal when I’ve had a few scares and he’s the only one that I let check all my orifices! 
Get to know your Doc! That’s my advice.

----------


## Cordite

> Yep they ain’t god, but don’t knock em, they’re the first buggers you go to when your I’ll. *Better they know you before you get sick instead of after!* 
> Had my Doc for 20 plus years, he’s changed my health so I don’t relay on daily doses of bad stuff, he’s been brutal when I’ve had a few scares and he’s the only one that I let check all my orifices! 
> Get to know your Doc! That’s my advice.


Thanks @Maca49.  That's profound.  Yes, please know me as _me_, not as my illness.

----------


## Woody

Now seems the alleged "wild pork" was sourced from a home kill place   :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## cambo

I think you have misread the article Woody...... 

The Stuff article has used that case to warn against home kill or giving away or illegally selling game meat.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...-botulism-case

----------


## Pengy

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see Woody naming the source of his info in his post, so maybe you are being a bit presumptious @cambo

----------


## Gibo

:3 8 14:  :3 8 14:

----------


## StrikerNZ

The article has been changed.. when first published, it claimed that the family had bought their pork online somewhere..

----------


## Tahr

Interesting how we see things differently. It seems to me that the change was to make it _more_ truthful by correcting a mistake or assumption. That's good journalism in my view, not bad journalism. 

Sure the journo could have done some fact checking, but at least they made the change. That's more than what we often do on here.

----------


## Boaraxa

Here's some more media garbage the way I see it its pretty much fake news 
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...-mataura-river

----------


## tetawa

> Interesting how we see things differently. It seems to me that the change was to make it _more_ truthful by correcting a mistake or assumption. That's good journalism in my view, not bad journalism. 
> 
> Sure the journo could have done some fact checking, but at least they made the change. That's more than what we often do on here.


If they admitted they had fucked up originally I could follow your thought pattern, but when dramatizing is the NO 1 object can't go there.

----------


## deer243

> Interesting how we see things differently. It seems to me that the change was to make it _more_ truthful by correcting a mistake or assumption. That's good journalism in my view, not bad journalism. 
> 
> Sure the journo could have done some fact checking, but at least they made the change. That's more than what we often do on here.


Lmao hows that good journalism??? Before you release a story get the FACTS right first, thats good journalism, not  state something you havnt checked or dont really know for sure but hey, it sounds good and it sells papers.    Shit journalism is what it is, and the truth in the end comes out so what are they going to do.....of cause they going to correct the false crap they released as they look like complete knobs if they didnt.                Funny how we see things differently is right,  :Grin:

----------


## GravelBen

> Here's some more media garbage the way I see it its pretty much fake news 
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...-mataura-river


Another brain-melting reminder of why I usually stay away from the stuff website.

----------


## Tahr

> Lmao hows that good journalism??? Before you release a story get the FACTS right first, thats good journalism, not  state something you havnt checked or dont really know for sure but hey, it sounds good and it sells papers.    Shit journalism is what it is, and the truth in the end comes out so what are they going to do.....of cause they going to correct the false crap they released as they look like complete knobs if they didnt.                Funny how we see things differently is right,


Its a glass half empty or half full thing. I see it as a genuine journalistic attempt on informing the public about not buying game meat from a dodgy source. We all know that it goes on. 
They only mistake that they made was in one sentence suggesting a causal link between the dodgy game meat market and the wild pork saga. That is was they redacted.

----------


## Tahr

Correction to above: That is_ what_ they redacted.

----------


## cambo

> Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see Woody naming the source of his info in his post, so maybe you are being a bit presumptious @cambo


Not being presumptious at all @Pengy - simply said he must of misread something.
I was just being more accurate and quoting a source, seeing as some seem to jump to conclusions and fly off the handle far to quickly

----------


## Sideshow

Maybe the staff from stuf should try eating some pork from around Chernobyl our Fukushima  :Psmiley: 
Eat that stuf and you would be green all the way through.
I just read that a dead polar bear is considered toxic waste due to it being at the top of the food chain and all that good shit that is floating around up north :O O: 
Just look up radioactive boar :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## timattalon

The number of times I have read a story on Stuff'd website only to check back later and find they have changed it more often because someone calls them out on their bullshit....Being online they are able to fact check afterwards and there is no proof of wrongdoing...In pint they are more careful as now there is evidence of their sensationalism and they can be sued / charged . 

Its called stuff (d) ans in Go and get stuff(d)....

----------


## Maca49

> 


Hahahah should have used the experience of Fonterra to solve this riddle?

----------


## FRST

Don't know if this has been shared already, can't be bothered looking through 11 pages of comments. Apologies if it has.

https://envirowatchrangitikei.wordpr...ial-diagnosis/

----------


## Gibo

Nah I'd say considering its food a bloke who runs a rewind outfit would be far more qualified

----------


## tararua

Are there any tests being done to determine if it was secondary poisoning?

I suppose it would not be good for DOC's agenda to chuck poison out of helicopters if any poison full stop made them sick.

1080 is not the only thing we have so much of we need to chuck it out of helicopters. They use Brodificom too.

----------


## outlander

> Now seems the alleged "wild pork" was sourced from a home kill place


I recall reading on day one, that the fella actually hunted the pig that day and ate it the same day. I also thought that that was quite a feat for a Bangladesh bloke.

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## kotuku

> I recall reading on day one, that the fella actually hunted the pig that day and ate it the same day. I also thought that that was quite a feat for a Bangladesh bloke.


not a hungry one it wouldnt be :Thumbsup:

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## cambo

> Are there any tests being done to determine if it was secondary poisoning?
> 
> I suppose it would not be good for DOC's agenda to chuck poison out of helicopters if any poison full stop made them sick.
> 
> 1080 is not the only thing we have so much of we need to chuck it out of helicopters. They use Brodificom too.



No they're only testing for botulism, nothing else. Samples been sent to Aussie and could take a month to get results, from what I understand anyway.
If it was poison that caused the family's predicament, and I highly suspect it was imho, then ACC would cover them and whoever was responsible for the poison program could face criminal convictions

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## doinit

There is something not right about the whole testing thing. There has and still is a lot of advise coming in from experts etc saying that they should be testing for other poisons. I very much doubt we will see or hear any results if they do decide to test for other possibles.

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## Maca49

> Nah I'd say considering its food a bloke who runs a rewind outfit would be far more qualified


Friday's pie day! Survive another week! No porkies though!

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## Gibo

How are the effected people doing? Are they ok?

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## cambo

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...me-in-putaruru

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## timattalon

> now there is someone who went and cleaned the place before they went home and said the food on the plates from that meal had gone mouldy after 35 days but the meat looked like it had only been cooked a few hours ago.if true I would think that would rule out a bacteria wouldn't it?


I thought it was wild pork, not MacDonalds meat.....

If that was the case though (No mould on the meat) then whatever "toxin" was present, it is enough to make the conditions too nasty for mould as well.....

----------


## cambo

Suspect meat seemed in &#39;pristine condition&#39; after 35 days | Radio New Zealand News

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## doinit

Would the so called piece of meat that was left in the pan still be in pristine condition when the same piece of meat on the plates went 
mouldy, not in my book, why would it. Unless it had been replaced with another lot then it to would be mouldy.
I'm not wearing a so called tin paper hat but something aint right .
The original meat could have been swapped but if that was the case then why would the stuff on the plates be left, did some dumb bugger over look  that if it was swaped like.
Many a sneaky case has gone by in this country and evidence has either vanished or been planted,this just don't seem right.
And the biggy one is,why are they only testing for Botulism.

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## Paddy79

I have worked and been trained in use of poisons such as 1080. im not an anti 1080 nut but sounds like secondary poisoning not botulism, especially since pigs build a tolerance to 1080 it can be possible to shoot a pig that has 1080 in its system.

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## Marty Henry

The envirowatch article is focussed on1080 the same way botulism has been picked on by authorities. Both may be incorrect.
The article claims that with repeated exposure pigs can develop a tolerance to 1080 of between 4 and 10 mg/kg for Ld50 accepting this as accurate and assuming the pig was one of the lucky 50% it could have 4-10 mg per poison per kg of meat.
An 80 kg person would need to eat 1kg of the meat to get enough 1080 to reach the lower figure they quote as having possible effects on humans.
Try eating a kg of meat. There are other questions.
Was the animal taken in or near an area that a 1080 operation had recently been conducted in? As unlike anticoagulents brodifacoum etc 1080 does not accumulate and store in tissue being water soluble.
Lobby groups will use this case to push their individual barrows be it for reforming ACC, opposing the use of 1080, or banning migrants but the truth may never be known.
Having worked in analytical chemistry the idea of testing something for poison is next to impossible unless you have an idea of what you are looking for as the tests are specific.

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## Woody

If such a high concentration of  1080 were possible (which I doubt) then surly there would be a whole lot more vry ill pig hunters historically in NZ? Just does'nt add up for me. Something is screwy here.

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## doinit

> I have worked and been trained in use of poisons such as 1080. im not an anti 1080 nut but sounds like secondary poisoning not botulism, especially since pigs build a tolerance to 1080 it can be possible to shoot a pig that has 1080 in its system.


Same. I was once an approved operater  using 1080  and held the required paper work bla,bla. 
And yes have seen pigs cruising along just fine after scoffing on dead rabbits that had been killed using 1080,for how long I don't know as I never found them dead.

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## timattalon

I am not so sure it was 1080. While the symptoms may appear to fit, the dosage and timing seem wrong. Likewise I think botulisim does not really fit. I just hope whatever it is, is clarified so others dont experience the same fate. It sounds to me like a poison / toxin rather than organic / bacteria / viral etc. But I dont know. Not knowing is what worries me. How can I avoid something I dont know to avoid?

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## bigbear

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...ocid=ACERDHP15

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## Cordite

> https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...ocid=ACERDHP15


As often, the heading and first line are contradictory.  Illiterate journalists we shall always have with us, it seems:

_Heading:_   "Police *rule out* deliberate poisoning in suspected botulism case"

_First line:_  "Police *won’t be investigating* a claim that a family who were hospitalised with suspected botulism, were poisoned."

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## vulcannz

> My sons a Doctor, reading the bullshit here on not trusting a doctor, I hope when you really get ill you don't scurry off to some poor Doc that's never met you before and has no history on you for treatment??
> Go to your naturopath, or maybe post on here for advice or just curl up and die!!


Told you so:  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...waikato-family

 :Grin:

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## Boaraxa

Crikey the plot thickens , sounds like they didn't even bother to test for 1080 maybe if they just say botulism a few more times itl just go away

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## diana2

Hm, just came across this article...
*Carbon Monoxide*Most meat eaters may be unaware that more than 70% of all beef and chicken in the United States, Canada and other countries is being treated with poisonous carbon monoxide gas. It can make seriously decayed meat look fresh for months.
Carbon monoxide (often referred to as CO) is a colorless, odorless, tasteless gas, one measly oxygen molecule away from the carbon dioxide we all exhale. But that one molecule makes a big difference in that it does very, very bad things to the human body at very, very low concentrations.
CO is toxic because it sticks to hemoglobin, a molecule in blood that usually carries oxygen, even better than oxygen can. When people are exposed to higher levels of CO, the gas takes the place of oxygen in the bloodstream and wreaks havoc. Milder exposures mean headaches, confusion, and tiredness. Higher exposures mean unconsciousness and death, and even those who survive CO poisoning can suffer serious long-term neurological consequences.

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## Paddy79

> Crikey the plot thickens , sounds like they didn't even bother to test for 1080 maybe if they just say botulism a few more times itl just go away


just have to ignore a problem long enough and it will go away  :Thumbsup:

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## Boaraxa

> just have to ignore a problem long enough and it will go away


The Graf boys are onto it carnt see them letting a good story go 1080 or not its given them some more ammo ...incase you where wondering paddy ..that's a good thing  :Thumbsup:

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## Ryan_Songhurst

sooooooooo........ when I originally said that we could guarantee that if 1080 was involved we wouldn't hear about it I was laughed off....

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## Rushy

> sooooooooo........ when I originally said that we could guarantee that if 1080 was involved we wouldn't hear about it I was laughed off....


They just reported on TV3 that 1080 was tested for and eliminated.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> They just reported on TV3 that 1080 was tested for and eliminated.


not sure whats going on there because earlier reports today specifically said they did NOT test for 1080, and now they have changed their tune? hmmm

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## Rushy

> not sure whats going on there because earlier reports today specifically said they did NOT test for 1080, and now they have changed their tune? hmmm


Yeh that is what I heard as well Ryan so when TV3 said they had I was thinking HUH?

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## tetawa

IF, offal or stomach contents was eaten, would that raise the chance of getting a decent dose of poison if  it was a poison in the first place?

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## veitnamcam

It has got to the point that one cannot believe a single bloody thing in print or on video...I dunno why tv 3 even perservers(spelling sorry?) with  the "news" anymore...".mediaworks "have totally given up on bringing us the public any facts at all and now produce some "comedy" show for news . :Wtfsmilie:

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## sneeze

The family friend in the video spoke well I thought and seemed to have a good grasp of of the facts and time line. He said no pesticide tests had been done. Im inclined to believe him over a  TV news report at this stage. Something more concrete may come out.  I do think it would be a mistake to not test for 1080/brodi and  the relative govt departments should be pushing for it. Not testing will just add fuel to the 1080 debate.

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## veitnamcam

> The family friend in the video spoke well I thought and seemed to have a good grasp of of the facts and time line. He said no pesticide tests had been done. Im inclined to believe him over a  TV news report at this stage. Something more concrete may come out.  I do think it would be a mistake to not test for 1080/brodi and  the relative govt departments should be pushing for it. Not testing will just add fuel to the 1080 debate.


Absolutely Brodi and 1080 should have been tested for from the outset...saves a lot of speculation doesn't it.

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## Tahr

Family tested for 1080.

No evidence that it was the meat that made them sick.

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/natio...-was-the-cause

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## sneeze

> Family tested for 1080.
> 
> No evidence that it was the meat that made them sick.
> 
> https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/natio...-was-the-cause


Yes I read that but thats not what was being said ear;ier and  its in contradiction with  the report from the family spokesman in this interview. This ambiguity needs to be tidied up  
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...waikato-family

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## Maca49

Smoke and mirrors, and if some dick said it would take a "bowl full" to have ant affect, maybe 1/2 a bowl should be eaten by him, just to satisfy me?

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## vulcannz

OK can someone double check me.

Toxipedia says  a lethal human dose is 0.5 to 2mg per Kg. (DoC use the 2mg measure for LD50).

An small asian woman weighing ~50kg would to ingest 25-100mg of 1080 to reach a lethal dose.

Doc say they drop baits at 1.5mg per gram, with bait sizes ranging from 6 to 12 grams. So each bait contains 9-18mg of 1080.

So two 12 gram baits would deliver 36mg of 1080 and be enough to be within a potentially lethal dosage range.

How big are 12 gram baits? Are two enough to fill one bowl?

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## cambo

> Family tested for 1080.
> 
> No evidence that it was the meat that made them sick.
> 
> https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/natio...-was-the-cause


No they haven't been.
Only tests for botulism been done.
Family have confirmed authorities refused to test for any poisons.
All the meat in the family's freezer has been taken and destroyed without testing.......

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## cambo

https://envirowatchrangitikei.wordpr...aikato-family/

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## 300CALMAN

Unfortunately testing the family some time after the poisoning may reveal little. This is a common problem with a lot of poisons not just 1080, acrylamide and glycol. If they weren't tested for poisons on admission we will now have ongoing speculation by conspiracy theorists for ever. Not to mention all this flip flopping and typical low grade click bait media crap. Oh for some real news, just careful attention to the facts, opinions stated as such and at least half an attempt by the reporter/editor to be neutral  :Pissed Off:  You know let you make up your own mind....

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## Russian 22.

> No they haven't been.
> Only tests for botulism been done.
> Family have confirmed authorities refused to test for any poisons.
> All the meat in the family's freezer has been taken and destroyed without testing.......


That just makes it appear to be 1080. At least to me. If it wasn't then they wouldn't hesitate to test and release the findings. 

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

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## vulcannz

It almost appears that they didn't want to say they were testing for 1080 as that then made it a possibility which could then reflect badly on the potential for human poisoning.

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## Maca49

Fake news and convenient truth?

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## Rushy

> Fake news and convenient truth?


Like Santa is coming and I'm getting presents.  Ha ha ha ha

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## Maca49

Have a merry one @Rushy!

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## Rushy

> Have a merry one @Rushy!


Thanks Maca.  Back at you for you and your family as well.

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## Boaraxa

> Like Santa is coming and I'm getting presents.  Ha ha ha ha


Well @Rushy you should have behaved a bit more then you would get some presents ..we all no Santa's little helpers are always watching hoe hoe hoe , looking forward to tomorrow my anty (god mother) received her gun licence in the mail 4 days ago only one present shes getting from me  :Thumbsup:

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## Cordite

Well, there is more to the 1080 side than just settling public conspiracy theories:

If the tests done were negative for botulinum toxin, then ACC should not really decline cover for treatment citing that an infectious organism, not accidental poisoning, was to blame.

...Which is a very good patient welfare reason why the public health officials responsible should consider adding 1080 tests to the samples.

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## Malhunting

So it has been confirmed now that it was a misdiagnosis for Botulism so what was it?
ACC happy to talk now to.

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## 300CALMAN

Due to the time between ingesting and testing we may never know. Lots of poisons break down rapidly, especially in living victims. I seem to remember 1080 takes less than a week for a sub lethal dose. There are other toxins, both natural and man made that could be responsible.

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## 300CALMAN

Another thing occurred to me is that maybe the Botulism anti-toxin only appeared to work as the neurotoxin wore off anyway.

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## timattalon

> Another thing occurred to me is that maybe the Botulism anti-toxin only appeared to work as the neurotoxin wore off anyway.


That is what they were worried about. They were recovering much faster than the Botulism treatment was expected to work. That's part of what tipped them off that it may not be what they thought (guessed?) it was. In sayig that, if it was going to take weeks to get a test result, then they are not going to wait until then to start treating them as they could deteriorate with a lack of treatment.

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## Cordite

Link to article, which states 1080 was also tested for alongside botulinum toxin.  Both negative.  Creepy mention of a bowl of pork meal still appearing fresh after 35 days, everything else around it rotten...

*https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...waikato-family*

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## Malhunting

Sounds like the 1080 was tested for 18 days after the fact by which time it will be untraceable, We really should be testing for it straight away in cases like this or others when we spread it around like butter on toast and there is no antidote.
What could it hurt to test for it?

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## Maca49

Would it not have been negligent not to have tested all possibilities? Id have been pissed if I was in this situation and some Doc decided in his personal view not to test for 1080 when it was relevant to the case?
I meant Doctor, Fing Doc wouldnt be interested under any circumstance.

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## vulcannz

> Sounds like the 1080 was tested for 18 days after the fact by which time it will be untraceable, We really should be testing for it straight away in cases like this or others when we spread it around like butter on toast and there is no antidote.
> What could it hurt to test for it?


iirc other poisons like brodi/similar rat poisons linger for a lot longer and are easily detected (someone correct me if I'm wrong) - which starts to narrow the field of potential suspects I think?

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## vulcannz

> Sounds like the 1080 was tested for 18 days after the fact by which time it will be untraceable, We really should be testing for it straight away in cases like this or others when we spread it around like butter on toast and there is no antidote.
> What could it hurt to test for it?


iirc other poisons like brodi/similar rat poisons linger for a lot longer and are easily detected (someone correct me if I'm wrong) - which starts to narrow the field of potential suspects I think?

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## Marty Henry

There are literally  hundreds of bacterial toxins  from mouldy fruit or veggies or wild shrooms that could have caused it. 
 As each possible poison requires a specific test, saying they should have tested for "poison" is nonsensical that would involve thousands of tests, a huge number of samples, take ages and then possibly still draw a blank. They picked the most likely options based on symptoms and went with those.

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## Cordite

> There are literally  hundreds of bacterial toxins  from mouldy fruit or veggies or wild shrooms that could have caused it. 
>  As each possible poison requires a specific test, saying they should have tested for "poison" is nonsensical that would involve thousands of tests, a huge number of samples, take ages and then possibly still draw a blank. They picked the most likely options based on symptoms and went with those.


 @Marty Henry

Yes, looking at the other way, they did not know enough to justify NOT administering botulinum antitoxin.

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## 300CALMAN

From the symptoms it seems to be a neurotoxin, there are many out there.

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## Chilli_Dog

Didn't read all 14 pages, is it possible to get secondary poisoning from tutu plant/berries?

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## Marty Henry

Yup, best known example is tutu, people have been poisoned by eating honey containing tutu nectar. It has no effect on the bees and now beekeepers must test honey for tutu if harvested in areas where it grows.

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## cambo

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/100...ng-lawyer-says

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## 7mmwsm

Rumour has it that the old girl bought some dodgy shit back from India (or somewhere) recently. And MPI are running for cover to save their arses for letting it through the border.

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## Malhunting

> Rumour has it that the old girl bought some dodgy shit back from India (or somewhere) recently. And MPI are running for cover to save their arses for letting it through the border.


They make it seem like you couldn't get into the country with the remains of a Rogue Fart in ya jocks on TV.

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## 7mmwsm

> They make it seem like you couldn't get into the country with the remains of a Rogue Fart in ya jocks on TV.


I wish they really were like that.

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## 300CALMAN

> Rumour has it that the old girl bought some dodgy shit back from India (or somewhere) recently. And MPI are running for cover to save their arses for letting it through the border.


It could be anything then. They should just com out and say "we do our best to stop this happening but this is why it's a bad idea to bring back food from overseas"

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## timattalon

> I wish they really were like that.


You know those big container xray machines they scan all the shipping containers with that find drugs etc...?    There is one. Not one in every port, but one that they share....Tauranga, Auckland, Timaru, Nelson, Lyttleton and Dunedin etc...Its worse than the public health system waiting lists.......

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## Tommy

> You know those big container xray machines they scan all the shipping containers with that find drugs etc...?    There is one. Not one in every port, but one that they share....Tauranga, Auckland, Timaru, Nelson, Lyttleton and Dunedin etc...Its worse than the public health system waiting lists.......


Correct. Customs intercept a heap of P every year, but the price doesn't change: A fuckload gets through. It all comes through Timaru and Tauranga premade these days, only the small players fuck around with Contac anymore.

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## Rushy

> Correct. Customs intercept a heap of P every year, but the price doesn't change: A fuckload gets through. It all comes through Timaru and Tauranga premade these days, only the small players fuck around with Contac anymore.


And you know this how Pablo?

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## 300CALMAN

@Tommy escobar ain't a small player :Grin:

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## Pengy

> I wish they really were like that.


Impossible to achieve.

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## Gibo

Anyone else seen the video interview on this lately. Bit of a worry if true. Done by the Graf boys so take from that what you will.

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## BeeMan

Bias dribble n shit put together by activists, yep ask yourself.

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## Projects

@Gibo do you have a link to the video?

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## Gibo

Nah just saw it on facebook, seems all my mates are turning anti 1080 and I see it all come through

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## Russian 22.

> You know those big container xray machines they scan all the shipping containers with that find drugs etc...?    There is one. Not one in every port, but one that they share....Tauranga, Auckland, Timaru, Nelson, Lyttleton and Dunedin etc...Its worse than the public health system waiting lists.......


How much does one of them cost?




> @Gibo do you have a link to the video?


It's on their YouTube channel.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

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## Projects

> It's on their YouTube channel.


Am i missing something? who's youtube channel?

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## sneeze

> Bias dribble n shit put together by activists, yep ask yourself.


This one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjMCSjs8ICw

Its a close family friend recounting  events and timeline.   Putting forward a counter argument would be far more beneficial than just throwing the " activists" label at it.

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## sneeze

Or this one with the victims telling their  story  and  Graff (?) reading from the  nursing notes. ? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6i4pZ5RYI4

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## Gibo

Thats the one i watched sneeze

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## Danny

Makes interesting reading and a number thought along those lines immediately but unfortunately Graf and his bandwagon doesnt lend itself to being (neutral) which is a bloody shame, we only want the truth.

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## sneeze

Neutrality isn't a prerequisite for truth.  It can be those with a passion /obsession that dig deep enough to find it.

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## Danny

> Neutrality isn't a prerequisite for truth.  It can be those with a passion /obsession that dig deep enough to find it.


True!
I think this story would have been better picked up by someone else thats all.

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## timattalon

> Neutrality isn't a prerequisite for truth.  It can be those with a passion /obsession that dig deep enough to find it.


Dont let the press / herald hear you say that. they might get the idea that they are allowed to be onesided biased and do poor research or editing. (Some of their grammar should be charged as murdering the english language) I sometimes wonder if any of the reporters can actually read and write now.

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## NRT

Pigs are hard to kill with 1080 and so are humans u would need a death wish to try ,better off living your life and draining your soul on telling people it's the most evil thing since Hitler.Got a duty in this country though because the youth are lazy .

Sent from my TA-1025 using Tapatalk

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## sneeze

> Pigs are hard to kill with 1080 and so are humans u would need a death wish to try ,better off living your life and draining your soul on telling people it's the most evil thing since Hitler.Got a duty in this country though because the youth are lazy .
> 
> Sent from my TA-1025 using Tapatalk


The New zealand LD 50 for pigs is .4mg/kg so not much and given pigs feeding habits they are in the firing line, they do have a mechanism that allows them to vomit which will save a few Im sure .The LD 50 is simply a  lethal for 50% of a population. What isn't known is the maximum  dose a pig may ingest and still survive. There is also some question around the toxic dose for a human, it is mostly guess work as far as I can find and  comes from some quite old studies. 
 Has anyone seen,can link, any recent studies on the toxic levels to humans that isn't a regurgitation of old estimates ?





> Dont let the press / herald hear you say that. they might get the idea that they are allowed to be onesided biased and do poor research or editing. (Some of their grammar should be charged as murdering the english language) I sometimes wonder if any of the reporters can actually read and write now.


 I dont see a lot real investigative journalism in local media, I think the internet has turned news into a race to be first consigning facts to the back of the bus.

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## doinit

> Bias dribble n shit put together by activists, yep ask yourself.


I feel kinda sad for those that really have no f****n idea.

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## Nick-D

> The New zealand LD 50 for pigs is .4mg/kg so not much and given pigs feeding habits they are in the firing line, they do have a mechanism that allows them to vomit which will save a few Im sure .The LD 50 is simply a  lethal for 50% of a population. What isn't known is the maximum  dose a pig may ingest and still survive. There is also some question around the toxic dose for a human, it is mostly guess work as far as I can find and  comes from some quite old studies. 
>  Has anyone seen,can link, any recent studies on the toxic levels to humans that isn't a regurgitation of old estimates ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  I dont see a lot real investigative journalism in local media, I think the internet has turned news into a race to be first consigning facts to the back of the bus.


Facts are sooo 2005. It's all about opinions now. I though one of 1080's big selling  points was that it's structure was more toxic to mammals than to invertebrates and birds.

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## Moa Hunter

Israel has been using 1080 to poison Palastinians and their livestock under the guise of 'rodent control' perhaps they would have some figures on human toxicity ??

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## Moa Hunter

Perhaps they are Russian double agents? Novachok

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## Sarvo

> Perhaps they are Russian double agents? Novachok


Please no - not today  :Omg:

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## Russian 22.

> Israel has been using 1080 to poison Palastinians and their livestock under the guise of 'rodent control' perhaps they would have some figures on human toxicity ??


Quick! Rename 1080 cyclone b and watch it be banned faster than Australia banned semis

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

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## tiroatedson

> True!
> I think this story would have been better picked up by someone else thats all.


Problem is not many people got the gumption the pick up the 1080 hot potato option....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Rushy

> Problem is not many people got the gumption the pick up the 1080 hot potato option....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Unfortunately like common sense,  there is a severe shortage of gumption these days.  Hell it has been absent so long that many people don't even know what it is.

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