# Hunting > Hunting >  Long range kill damage

## Toby

Since there seems to be people here who hunt at long range so can you show me some pics of the damage to animals at certain ranges please, Im keen to see what differences there are between say 50-1000m with one of those big calibers.

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## Tahr

300 yards, 6.5x55, 140 grn AMax. Not "one of those big calibers" though. The hole is the exit.

Broadside, straight across gully. MV 2800 fps.

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## Toby

Still a damage report and it helps me understand calibers damage to different size animals so thanks.

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## Tahr

40 yards with 243 and 95 grn Targex. Yearling Fallow. Ouch!

Angled running away, low shoulder shot, no exit.

A good example why we have to be damned careful about where we point firearms and what we are actually shooting at, eh. No second chances.

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## distant stalker

If people could post impact velocity, shot angle, calibre and bullet type alongside the autopsy then there could be potential for some useful information, start tosee the real world terminal performance patterns over different velocity ranges. Would require quite a few posts to be definitive but could develop a good base over time

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## Toby

This wasnt long range or anything but a turkey with 7.62x39mm



A goat with my 6.5x55 at about 35m, was my mates first kill and first time shooting a big rifle he was pretty stoked, hes only shot the .22lr a few times when I taught him safety and how a bolt works



A .270 from about 60-80m


6.5x55 was using winchester super x 140gr and .270 was with highland not sure cause it wasnt my gun just saw him hand me bullets from a highland box but assume 130gr as thats what he says he likes for deer.

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## veitnamcam

Just remember you cant lump bullets/weights performance together. Impact velocity is the thing not range, differnt cals and cartridges Can push a pill to a wide velocity range.

30 cal amax 168gr impact vel 2180 fps
Behind shoulder meat no bone between ribs.




Both lungs anihalated run 50 odd yards due to taking out top of heart as well.

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## Toby

mint, yeah your right I wouldnt except to see damage like that done from a FMJ, still like looking at it though, is hitting bone good or bad for getting a fast kill?

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## veitnamcam

130ttsx30cal impact velocity 3180fps

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## Toby

Oh I like that hole, did it die on the spot?

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## Kiwi Greg

.375 400 Cutting Edge muxxle velocity of 2920 775 yards 

Red Hind





Stag that was on the ute behind the pic of the Hind.





Looking forward to seeing what another 200-250 fps muzzle velocity will make  :Have A Nice Day:

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## veitnamcam

> mint, yeah your right I wouldnt except to see damage like that done from a FMJ, still like looking at it though, is hitting bone good or bad for getting a fast kill?


That depends entirely on the pill and impact velocity, even thick skin eg roaring stag or matted coat full of mud can cause "Issues" with a very frangible pill at high impact velocity's(IE close) without hitting bone at all.
A "harder/Tougher" pill out of a smallish case and med ranges may "require" hitting bone or at least substantial resistance(thick skin/hair and a heap of shoulder meat) to even expand.

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## Toby

Holy fuck. That is wow. I want that lol the ole man will cry about meat wastage but it just means hunting more. Do you think ballistic tip projectiles work better then soft points of lead? for say around 80m in 6.5? Thats probably common range for deer with me I havnet shot many deer though but I buy Winchester super x's 140gr with the leap tips and they seem ok but some people told me they are shit and to use Ballistic tip projectiles and other's say keep using them cause there better, I dont trust any of them as they dont know shit, just old guys talking rubbish, I trust you guys to know what your doing.

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## veitnamcam

> .375 400 Cutting Edge muxxle velocity of 2920 775 yards 
> 
> Red Hind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stag that was on the ute behind the pic of the Hind.
> ...


I can see what killed it........... fist sized holes threw the engine room do that. :Cool:

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## Kiwi Greg

> just old guys talking rubbish,


Lol sounds familiar  :Thumbsup:

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## Toby

You guys dont seem to talk much crap from what I have seen, Although I haven't been here long  :Have A Nice Day:

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## veitnamcam

> Oh I like that hole, did it die on the spot?


Yep, 5 maby 4 yards on a decent sized billy front on. penetrated the full length and dragged 90 of the guts out unbroken :Grin: 
Iv got more Barnes shots somewhere Il try and find some tomorrow.

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## Kiwi Greg

> I can see what killed it........... fist sized holes threw the engine room do that.


That & straight out raw horse power or ftlbs in this case, obscene amounts  :Thumbsup: 

Bullet expansion is only part of the equation, 4-5000+ ftlbs is going to really sting  :Cool:

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## Kiwi Greg

> You guys dont seem to talk much crap from what I have seen, Although I haven't been here long


 :Grin:  you can't be looking in the right places *Toby*  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## veitnamcam

> If people could post impact velocity, shot angle, calibre and bullet type alongside the autopsy then there could be potential for some useful information, start tosee the real world terminal performance patterns over different velocity ranges. Would require quite a few posts to be definitive but could develop a good base over time


No like button on this post? I was going to like it :Have A Nice Day:

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## Toby

Yup sounds good, I will remember now when im hunting if i kill anything try to get a picture to help.

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## mucko

> Since there seems to be people here who hunt at long range so can you show me some pics of the damage to animals at certain ranges please, Im keen to see what differences there are between say 50-1000m with one of those big calibers.


Hi Toby check out Nathans website Wound Database this will go along way to answer your questions.

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## Rushy

All of these photographs of severe trauma are very familiar in that I have often seen the same sort of damage but I have just been racking my brain and I cannot recall ever having taken a photograph of a skinned animal hanging.

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## Tahr

243, MV 3080 fps, 95 grn Targex. 230 yds. Slightly down hill and quartering away, hit in crease. Lung and heart damage. Only bullet fragments found (scattered about in lungs and heart.
Large rib entry hole, but only pin prick in skin. I think all of the blood was pumped through the rib hole and couldn't escape so ended up between the ribs and the skin.



*Note: I'm happy to post these pics for the purpose of learning about how bullets work and how to cause quick and humane deaths. If it turns into a bullshit shock and awe thread I will pull my pics down.*

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## muzr257

Tahr was the meat on the front fore quarter ok? just congealed blood to cut away?
This is a good thread - normally you would look at that photo and go $%^@& was he using a 685 greg super cannon improved, with damage like that.
But your description changes how it looks - keep up the good work guys!


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And no i wasnt encouraging Kiwi Greg to make an even bigger cannon than the ones he used now :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## Toby

Did it drop on the spot?

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## Toby

> Hi Toby check out Nathans website Wound Database this will go along way to answer your questions.


Thanks

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## Tahr

> Did it drop on the spot?


If you are asking about my last pic, yes, it ran about 50 yards down hill. Bolted at the shot, but had a bit of a sideways run going on as it disappeared, so I knew it was hit hard. It was upside down in a creek.

Bolting at the shot is quite common with lung and heart shots.

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## Toby

What would a .223 be like damage wise to goats around 100m-200m just using cheap ammo 55gr or something around that? Would they go very far after a good hit in the shoulder? I want a goat gun to add to my collection but I like things with cheap ammo but I dont want to hit things and watch them run to far away.

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## Scribe

Toby it is like this. You can be like a road ganger swinging a hammer or a surgeon weilding a scapel. How dead do you want to make something...I prefer to eat right up to the bullet hole instead of throwing half an animal away. I have to admit to viewing some of this evidence here with a degree of distaste.

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## Toby

Yeah ok some people like to eat everything on the animal, I do when it comes to venison/pork but the goats roam around here in huge numbers so I just want something cheap but good to kill em

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## Scribe

Are you aware Toby that parts of these forums often turn up on various internet sights not connected to hunting.

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## Toby

Yes i am, nothing illegal going on so what is there to be worried about?

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## Toby

Is it good that the lead comes out from the jacket?

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## StrikerNZ

> What would a .223 be like damage wise to goats around 100m-200m just using cheap ammo 55gr or something around that? Would they go very far after a good hit in the shoulder? I want a goat gun to add to my collection but I like things with cheap ammo but I dont want to hit things and watch them run to far away.


I'm not too experienced, but having taken a reasonable number of goats (and roos) with a .223 in the last 6 months or so, here's what I've found -
I'm now using the Hornady 55gr sp training ammo, and while it's fine for decent chest/shoulder shots out to around 170y or so, I've found that approaching the 200 yard mark and beyond, it simply isn't killing acceptably with those shots. 

Admittedly they were big gnarly old goats, but I've found on several occasions ranging from approx 190-220 that a decently placed shoulder, chest, or even neck shot simply wasn't killing the goat. It knocked them down and would likely have killed them eventually, but a few too many times we've gone for the confirmation only to find the goat down but still alive, up to 15 or 20 minutes after. I've only really finalised this conclusion on the last trip, but with that in mind I think I'm going to be restricting myself to headshots only from 180y or so onwards, at least with this ammo.

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## Toby

Thanks for info, how much does that ammo cost?

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## leathel

> Is it good that the lead comes out from the jacket?


Not realy but non bonded bullets are dearer.... 

I will drag some pics from different cals and pills when I get a chance  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Toby

sometime's I find my projectiles the lead is gone, I will post pics when I go back home of them, Would it take weight of the bullet out if lead comes out making the jacket stop faster?

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## StrikerNZ

> Thanks for info, how much does that ammo cost?


$35 per 50 rounds from the local, so works out to 70c per round. Less if you buy it by the brick.

It's a pretty reliable shooter for cheap ammo, sitting right on the MOA mark in my rifle (rem 700).

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## Toby

Oh yeah thats not too bad

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## phillipgr

Out to how far would a 140gr 7mm08 have the power to kill? Obviously it would depend on the size of the animal and where you place your shot, but lets say its an average sized Red and placing the shot on the shoulder, how far (assuming you could calculate the drop) would you take the shot at? I can't see myself taking any shots further than 250m at the most, but its good stuff to know. Cheers

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## Tahr

> Toby it is like this. You can be like a road ganger swinging a hammer or a surgeon weilding a scapel. How dead do you want to make something...I prefer to eat right up to the bullet hole instead of throwing half an animal away. *I have to admit to viewing some of this evidence here with a degree of distaste.*


On reflection, agreed. I pulled my links down from photo-bucket but this place must not be linked because they are still here. Maybe the mods could delete my pics except the top one?

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## leathel

> Not realy but non bonded bullets are dearer.... 
> 
> I will drag some pics from different cals and pills when I get a chance


"Bonded bullets are dearer" that should read

The further away you shoot the more explosive you want so they reliably open.... so you either get a massive hole close and kills well at distance or a nice close kill with not tooo much waisted meat and pencil with a slow kill out further.... Will get sonme pic's in 243 and 7mm togeather  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Scribe

You understand I am not trying to be an ogre over this. Hunting is under pressure for various reasons...You can imagine how these photo's and associated remarks can be used against us by the Zambian Animal Liberation Front and the Biafran Association of Vegans.

When I bring an animal home considering I have a wife and two daughters I like to present it in its best light. A pinhole looking entry wound. They tend then not to think of an animal suffering. Present a gruesome bullet wound to 50% of the population and they will think animal suffering even if the animals head it torn right off. Human nature really isnt it.

Mutilation...interesting word this.

People can often accept the death of an animal....But death and mutilation, not so, this conjures up bad thoughts in people. So for this very good reason. Projectile  manufacturers, Gun manufacturer and various other people in the game shy away from displaying to the public gaze what their weapons are capable of doing to the bambi's of the forest. It would be a public relations nightmare for them.

I could I suppose find pictures and put them up on a sight showing the effect of different calibres and projectiles on the human body. Legally it is probably borderline but the point is some people would regard this as offensive, rightfully so from their point of view, but maybe not from a hardened soldiers point of view. I just think we should realise that a greater number of people than we think find the sight of mutilated animals offensive. We should remember this is a forum that is not exclusive and I can be entered and the material used buy the public.

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## Toby

I fully agree with you, thanks for sharing that, it never crossed my mind, What If we took this whole thing down but started a new one and keep it a little more clean, like keeping the comments of how awesome that huge hole is to pm's or if you ever meet or something, I can see how some animal loving person will take those comments and its their choice although I dont agree with it they can be who they want to be.

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## leathel

I will add some pics as to show what I have to help those that want to know.... None are all that far away as my longer shots are on goats and usualy done on distruction orders so not much meat is gathered and its only the close ones that are easy to get too

7mm 180 VLD with a impact speed of around 2600 fps ( smallish pig )



In hole circled, this animal was on the run and shot at 110 mtrs, the bullet went through the leg bone then had about a 2" hole in to the rib cage and a 6"+ exit on the other side of the rib cage, heart distroyed so only carried on through momentum.



Will post them as I find them...

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## leathel

exit of an 6mm 87gr Vmax on a fallow at 250 yards shot by my son...I put one in its head strait after as it was still moving but as his took out the back bone and some vitals it wasn't going to be moving long..... quite a violent pill to use and would not shoot a red deer in the shoulder with one but goats yes....

Neck shot goat with the same pill... The neck was quite hollow..... only had to cut the skin to remove it, only 80 odd yards



this goat was 326 yards away and was shot in one leg, through the ribs and out the other leg... with the legs hanging down it does show the rib damage but 2" in and 4" out hole... again the 87gr Vmax

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## Scribe

Please yourself. I prefer to downplay the gore in every which way I can. I well remember some Greenpeace members getting some shots once of a seal that was quite obviously dead but still kicking. It was being skinned when the film was shot. Those shots went right around the world in a matter of days and did the industry no end of harm. My daughters came home from school nearly in tears after hearing about it these live seals that were being skinned. 

Now no amount of logic ever made any difference after that. No sane person is ever going to try to skin a live seal they bite worse than a dog...Can you even imagine someone trying to skin a live possums. 

Mutilation...and that is what we are talking here conjurers up thoughts of goings on out in the bush that are not quite kosher. 

Look at the dramatization of events even in our own newspapers....Man kills cat and uses it as a football. Killing a cat is no problem and quite legal but the fact he didnt want to touch it and so he kicked it into the rubbish hole becomes the problem.

 What I am trying to say it is not the act of killing,  we all know what goes on, lets not glorify it though, lets be careful of the remarks that go with that act. Check Tobys remarks. I wasnt growling at him I was just a bit uncomfortable about where Toby was taking the discussion ...The evidence was graphic enough

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## leathel

Scribe I get where you are coming from but also see Tussocks side as well, I chose to post these.... and the ones I am still looking for

This is entry damage of a 7mm 140 Accubond @ around 3K entry on the back at around 250 yards... the exit was down through between the front leggs (I was up high compared to the deer) but I have no pics of the exit





Not not much damage to the actual steak being the bullet held togeather better......

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## Scribe

Dont worry "leathel" my remarks were not aimed at you posts I was answering "Tussock" and your post came in between the two of us.

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## Toby

Those V-maxs seem to be good from that picture,

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## leathel

Exit 7mm 140VLD @ around 60 yards and around 3200fps.... note not one exit hole, bullet blew to bits



goat again same pills but around 300 yards



front leg on this one is factory 308 150 corelokts..... dont know the speeds



Well that all I have on photobucket...dont have the time to upload more ATM, Have a pig in the fridge shot with a 270 140 AB that should have the pill still in it as I saw no exit hole so when I carve it up tomorrow I will take some pics

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## Toby

Sweet, Thank you for sharing

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## leathel

> Those V-maxs seem to be good from that picture,


they expand well but if you hit a solid Red bone or pig sheild they may not penatrate.... but very good for goats and lighter animals at most ranges

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## Toby

How cheap are they? The seem like something I would like but im pretty tight.

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## veitnamcam

130ttsx 30 cal impact velocity 2250fps




I cant find my other pics but can say the almost total lack of bruising is tippical They are like a super apple corer cutting a dead straight hole threw anything in there path.

A high lung shot on a small broadside red a while back cut a neat 50mm hole threw both lungs and dropped it on the spot. shot was a little higher than i would have liked but still didnt bruise the back steaks or shoulders at all.

If you want to eat right up to the hole highly recommend them but not for long range past about 400 depending on cal etc

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## leathel

> How cheap are they? The seem like something I would like but im pretty tight.


well tight and effective dont allways go together..... but they are actually quite well priced as they come in 100 count boxes... were as the 90gr ballistic tips I used to use came is 50's and weren't that much cheaper. The 90's worked well to 450 yards out of my rig (actaualy drops them better at 400 than 100), Vmax kills better a bit further due to better expansion  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Beavis

Exit wound from a goat shot at about 50yds running diagonally towards me. 55gr Hornady training (.223) shot out of 16" bbl AR. Dropped on the spot. Have had inconsistent experience with this ammo. Doesn't seem to do the business at times even with well placed shots. Longest kill I have got with it is just over 350m (multiple kills actually). Well, I shot one at 400m a couple times but it limped off into the scrub.

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## veitnamcam

I will add that one mans perfect performance is another mans blow up or pencil threw.
How you want a bullet to perform is a very personal thing.

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## L.R

Red Hind shot behind the shoulder with 300 Berger @600m muzzle velocity 2840.  Lots of meat damage from the shock, exit wound 1.5".

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## veitnamcam

> One of the issues with hunters and terminal ballistics is the small sample size. You need thousands of animals per projectile. For each angle of impact, and each impact velocity and each point of impact you need an example. Thats thousands and thousands of combinations of variables.


I aggree in part. Certainly need a decent sample but thousands? Id shot around 15 deer with a projectile I wont name or use again and thought they were the ducks nuts. No 16 was two blow ups without penitrating the vitals. I dont need to shoot another 984 with them to know they dont suit my use of them.
I run a short and long range(for a 308 :Grin: ) load. Iv found my minnimum range for the long load that gives terminal results I like. Max distance with the short load hasent really been tested yet but it has been tested past my min for the long load and still works well :Have A Nice Day:

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## Toby

Did that one drop on the spot?

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## L.R

Yes shot 3 at around 600m that weekend, not one took a step.

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## veitnamcam

Toby, you seem very interested in dropping them on the spot. Hitting the spine or shocking the spine is is usually what causes this so head/neck/ high lung shots are most likely to do it. Hopefully your chosen projectile and placement causes enough damage to make them bleed out before the central nervous system recovers if it hasent been destroyed.

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## L.R

I agree with vetnamcam, the deer in my pic above and the others shot that weekend had the spine pulverised by shock even tho all the shots were at least 4" below.  I wouldn't be to concerned if they take a few steps before falling over.

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## Toby

Yeah, lets be honest here, When you pull that trigger nothing feels better then watching it drop on the spot.

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## veitnamcam

And nothing worse than when it gets up and runs shortly after!

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## L.R

I guess thats whats good about the big cannons, even if the shot placement is poor it usually does enough damage to stop them going anywhere.

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## Toby

> And nothing worse than when it gets up and runs shortly after!


It's called .338  :Have A Nice Day:  jokes, yeah I hate that. Do you wait a little bit just in case?

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## Spudattack

> I guess thats whats good about the big cannons, even if the shot placement is poor it usually does enough damage to stop them going anywhere.


That was pretty much my point on the thread about using a .223 on deer, a bigger calibre gives you that much more margin for error.

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## Kiwi Greg

> I agree with vetnamcam, the deer in my pic above and the others shot that weekend had the spine pulverised by shock even tho all the shots were at least 4" below.  I wouldn't be to concerned if they take a few steps before falling over.


Always a nice feeling when they go down quick.

Were they with the 300 OTM or Gen I ?

What is the twist rate 1-9 or 1-10 ?

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## L.R

GenI 9 twist.

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## veitnamcam

> It's called .338  jokes, yeah I hate that. Do you wait a little bit just in case?


If im not 100% certain where it landed il watch it threw the scope, If you aimed at the neck and its lifting its head or waving it round youd better get there quick or give it another.  :ORLY:

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## The Claw

Bull Tahr @ 820m. Impact velocity 2,340fps. 300gr SMK. Broke both shoulders, projectile came to rest under skin on off side. Entry side first, then exit.


I'll let you decide if it dropped on the spot... tahr at 820m (med).m4v - YouTube

I have another photo of an exit wound on a nannie @ 650m but its not pretty so I'm not putting it up...

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## Kiwi Greg

> GenI 9 twist.


Thanks thats what I was hoping you would say, seen that a few times, not sure if the OTM is quite so aggressive at lower muzzle velocities.

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## Neckshot

I would try hard to close a gap on a animal so i dont waste so much meat as its what helps feed my kids! some of the pics here have wasted  some good meat.IMO

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## Toby

> I would try hard to close a gap on a animal so i dont waste so much meat as its what helps feed my kids! some of the pics here have wasted  some good meat.IMO


This is true, but then again they get to go hunting again faster  :Have A Nice Day:

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## The Claw

Fair enough too. If I close the gap when using my 338 it increases the meat damage... unless its headshot... In saying that, I have a much smaller pop gun that I hunt close with for the same reason you point out...

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## Kiwi Greg

> I would try hard to close a gap on a animal so i dont waste so much meat as its what helps feed my kids! some of the pics here have wasted  some good meat.IMO


Thats a fair comment, hit them behind the shoulders broad side on through the ribs & no meat loss.

I would rather have a big mess on the ground in front of me, than bugger all mess running around.....

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## tui_man2

> Bull Tahr @ 820m. Impact velocity 2,340fps. 300gr SMK. Broke both shoulders, projectile came to rest under skin on off side. Entry side first, then exit.
> Attachment 3667Attachment 3668
> 
> I'll let you decide if it dropped on the spot... tahr at 820m (med).m4v - YouTube
> 
> I have another photo of an exit wound on a nannie @ 650m but its not pretty so I'm not putting it up...



I have seen that photo looks like a hand grenade got put in it  :Thumbsup: 
like a home made bomb in a letter box :Have A Nice Day:  oh the days

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## Spanners

> Mutilation...and that is what we are talking here conjurers up thoughts of goings on out in the bush that are not quite kosher.


So I presume you shoot all your animals in the eye with a FMJ at 'the' distance where it doesnt over penetrate,  or under penetrate?

Can you advise that distance and the point of aim that results in no 'mutilation'?

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## CreepingDeath

Watch an episode of our world where two lions are holding down a zebra while the rest of them eat it arse first while its alive:eek: thats mutilation. What we do is quite possibly the nicest death on the planet. Greenies antihunters ect need a strong cup of h.t.f.u and start worring about something worth while. Its farfetched and unrealistic to think animals are killed without blood and or guts.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

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## Bill999

there is something nice about a neck shot deer with the whole body undamaged meat to eat. 
then on the other hand if you hit the neck bone at under 100m it nearly completly removes a fallow hinds head. very messy. 243 caliber 80gr soft points.

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## distant stalker

I like neck shots for the reasons listed. The Mrs is comfortable taking neck shots to 300 yards and has taken a few around that range now

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## Scribe

> So I presume you shoot all your animals in the eye with a FMJ at 'the' distance where it doesnt over penetrate,  or under penetrate?
> 
> Can you advise that distance and the point of aim that results in no 'mutilation'?


Cut the crap "spanners" it doesnt matter a damn what I think really does it. Posting pictures on here of goats with their guts shot out and mutilated deer shows we have very little respect for the animals we shoot or what other people think of what we do

A few months back I posted a thread on shooting a deer....How we should just spend a minute sitting next to touching and admiring the animal we have shot. Take another minute to wonder which set of mountains he/she was born in and contemplate the twists and turns of the animals journey to meet you here on this spot in the Forest where you have taken its life. There seemed to be a general agreement at the time about the need to show more respect for the animals.

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## Toby

Do you really shoot a deer and sit next to it and think about it? I dont do that, not saying theres anything wrong with that its your choice but I am normally happy as anything cause I managed to shoot a deer. The only sitting and thinking is after its gutted and how we are going to get it out.

also these pics go with hunting. spanners has a point. Hunting isn't flowers and perfume....

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## CreepingDeath

No, i dont give a fuck what people think of what i do. Respect yes. Subscribe to the life of bambi, no. Am I ment to have a service for every rabbit ,possum or duck are there lives worth less than a deer. Do you touch up stinky billy goats? I understand your point and agree somewhat but think you maybe taking it a little serious.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

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## Spanners

> Cut the crap "spanners" it doesnt matter a damn what I think really does it. Posting pictures on here of goats with their guts shot out and mutilated deer shows we have very little respect for the animals we shoot or what other people think of what we do
> .


I have shot animals and had to hunt around to see where the wound was, I've also shot the one beside it at the same time and its looked like a bomb has gone off inside it.
The fact of the matter is no 2 projectiles perform the same and 2 proj on 2 similar animals dont perform the same.

This thread is simply about terminal performance at 'long range' as per the title, a topic which is often debated due to the myths of projectiles not performing at range.

'Mutilation'? come on, thats just a bucket of shit; I doubt ANYONE here deliberately INTENDED to do as much meat damage as shown

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## Neckshot

bloody hell Toby! look what youve started,now sit back and watch! :36 1 7:

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## Toby

Oh dear, haha oh well I could do with some entertainment in this shithole(not forums, hospital)  :Have A Nice Day:

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## veitnamcam

I definitely respect the animal Scribe.
But we all do that in different ways. I dont sit down and say a prayer but there is always that touch of regret/sadness for taking an animals life.
We all owe it to the animal to end its life as quickly and painlessly as possible. 
Different tools for different jobs.
Not everyone has the same  experience/shooting ability/terrain/animals.
This thread if added to and culled of comments could become a valuable resource for both the novice and experienced alike.

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## Barefoot

> All of these photographs of severe trauma are very familiar in that I have often seen the same sort of damage but I have just been racking my brain and I cannot recall ever having taken a photograph of a skinned animal hanging.


Ditto, can't think of a single photo of bullet damage I've ever taken. Openned animals up to see what damage was done yes, pics no.
May I ask why people have?

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## Toby

Because it is something to use and compare to other animals shot.

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## Scribe

> Oh I like that hole, did it die on the spot?


So what are we are we achieving here.  Some sort of cheap gratification.

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## Toby

Im not here to argue. Its my choice that I like good exit wounds and animals dying on the spot. Its your choice you dont.

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## Scribe

> Im not here to argue. Its my choice that I like good exit wounds and animals dying on the spot. Its your choice you dont.


I bow my head to your superior knowledge about how to kill things.

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## CreepingDeath

Condasending much. I bow my head to your ultimate pretention and narrow mindedness

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

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## Toby

Come on guys lets just drop it.

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## Scribe

Go ahead just ignore the fact that some of us find the posting of some of this material offensive. I wouldnt take a photo of a goat with its guts shot out let alone post it on here.

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## Toby

You know what this thread is full of, Stay out, Super simple stuff  :Have A Nice Day:

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## L.R

> A few months back I posted a thread on shooting a deer....How we should just spend a minute sitting next to touching and admiring the animal we have shot. Take another minute to wonder which set of mountains he/she was born in and contemplate the twists and turns of the animals journey to meet you here on this spot in the Forest where you have taken its life. There seemed to be a general agreement at the time about the need to show more respect for the animals.





> Go ahead just ignore the fact that some of us find the posting of some of this material offensive. I wouldnt take a photo of a goat with its guts shot out let alone post it on here.


Fuck mate do you work for PETA or something?

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## Scribe

No I dont work for PETA. Our organization Thames Landcare have touched base with them a few time on animal cruelty issues over the last couple of years. They would thank you for handing them free ammunition in the form of some of the graphic images posted here and the comments that follow them. In time these images will pop up again and people will use them against the groups that publish them.

"Spanners" there is no sense in deliberately misunderstanding what I am talking about. Its not the damage a bullet does thats the problem here it the persception of us that is held by people that dont hunt, they see such displays asthose above  as a glorification of the mutilation of an animal by bullets.

Look at the "Sow Crate" a pretty innocuous piece of equipment really. Film it at night add some fairly innocent pig noises and pretty ordinary pig behaviour show it on TV and the pig farmers were fucked. Even the Government went into a tailspin over it and hurriedly belted some legislation in place to cover their ass.

Remember keep it clean or keep it to yourself because believe me these guys are going to come after us one day too.

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## Dougie

Personally, I do not find the photos offensive. I think this was in theory a great resource to be started. However, I am slightly offended by Toby's remarks that seem to glorify gore. 

I understand KiwiGreg's points too and Toby and Greg are probably feeling the same sort of thing (humane and effective kill) but somehow the language used by the younger of the two makes them seem like two different viewpoints. I can imagine Toby playing video games at home and fist pumping for graphically blowing a person's head off. Now that isn't a dig at you Toby it's just how I kind of percieve it. And I think what Scribe is trying to say that is if someone who doesn't understand why we all enjoy hunting and animal control might group us all together as physco killers based on the comments about holes in animals as above when really they are not intended to be taken that way.

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## Toby

Why would some one who doesn't like hunting go looking for pictures of holes in animals??? They are just there to cause shit, I guess the world would be boring without them.

Anyway I wont comment on the exit wounds or show any interest in the pics then, but I still want to see them posted.

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## Dougie

Comment away dude.

And I am asking myself the same question as you - silly people who like writing to the editor. And you're right, the world would be boring without them! Or at least quieter. I don't know. I guess it keeps us on our toes and makes life 'interesting'  :Wink:

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## Rushy

> Why would some one who doesn't like hunting go looking for pictures of holes in animals??? They are just there to cause shit, I guess the world would be boring without them.
> 
> Anyway I wont comment on the exit wounds or show any interest in the pics then, but I still want to see them posted.


Toby, some non forum folk with alternate agendas will take opportunity to place spin on our enthusiasm for our hunting / sporting pursuit and then they will use it to cause negative reaction / ill will toward that which we enjoy.  As Dougie has said above, carry on commenting.  You are entitled to your viewpoint and this forum is richer for your contributions since joining.  Our membership is quite diverse and I for one do not have a problem with the naivity and impetuosity of your youth.  On an entirely different note if you are still in hospital then tell the nurses how great they are for me (i may need them some day).

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## Toby

> On an entirely different note if you are still in hospital then tell the nurses how great they are for me (i may need them some day).


Yeah im doing chemo as we speak, my last lot ,I head back home for 2 weeks after this. The good thing about plamy is the student nurses  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Scribe

> Oh I like that hole, did it die on the spot?


Tussock I suggest you would be better off pointing out the flaws in this mans thinking above. Sort of a short explanation along the lines that accuracy is more important than how big the hole is would probably be more beneficial to this man. 

Possibly you might find this job more rewarding too.

 You are not going to convince me or a lot of other people that Toby's postings of plain gore on a public notice board is a good idea.

Do you really think PETA gives a shit about your opinions that such gore is required to learn how to shoot properly... PETA wants your guns so you cant hurt any other animals. 

Keep such gore off the forums...A moderators job is to moderate.... Do It

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## CreepingDeath

What peta want our guns so the government can poison our wildlife?  I think tobys comment is taken out of context. I like that hole to , i can tell from that hole that the animal most probably died on the spot frm massive blood pressure drop or if not i would not have lived for more than a few seconds with the blood loss that would have occured. If you put this much effort into exposing the evils of 1080 the worod would be a better place.

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## Toby

Rucka Rucka Ali PETA - YouTube

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## Scribe

> What peta want our guns so the government can poison our wildlife?  I think tobys comment is taken out of context. I like that hole to , i can tell from that hole that the animal most probably died on the spot frm massive blood pressure drop or if not i would not have lived for more than a few seconds with the blood loss that would have occured. If you put this much effort into exposing the evils of 1080 the worod would be a better place.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


Alright then I will play your game "creeping death" try your best to put Toby's comment in context for us all then.

I have seen many massive exit holes in animals that emptied the gut cavity and never hit a vital organ. We all have possibly. And spent an hour on our hands and knees tracking an animal gut shot with a 30,06 because some clown thought he only had to make a big hole in the middle of the animal to kill it.

Big holes are not very useful really???? Accurracy or bullet placement is what kills. 

As for the battle against 1080...I have fought it since around 1971and I have been active in this battle at all times.

In 2011 I was part of a delegation from the Coromandel to appear before Parlimentary Select Committee. This Select Committee was formed to examine a petitition organised by Thames Landcare. The Petition called for an examination by this select committee into 
The Criminal Misuse Of The Toxin 1080 On The Coromandel.

Come to to think of it I didnt see any "Creepin Deaths" around any of the meetings of the various 1080 groups around the country over say the last 10 years even.

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## Spanners

> Tussock I suggest you would be better off pointing out the flaws in this mans thinking above. Sort of a short explanation along the lines that accuracy is more important than how big the hole is would probably be more beneficial to this man. 
> 
> Possibly you might find this job more rewarding too.
> 
>  You are not going to convince me or a lot of other people that Toby's postings of plain gore on a public notice board is a good idea.
> 
> Do you really think PETA gives a shit about your opinions that such gore is required to learn how to shoot properly... PETA wants your guns so you cant hurt any other animals. 
> 
> Keep such gore off the forums...A moderators job is to moderate.... Do It


All down to interpretation 



> Oh I like that hole, did it die on the spot?


To _me_; the terminal performance is something he looks for in a projectile, as was asking if it was a bang flog.
D.R.T. with the exit wound that you prefer based on prior kills = perfect projectile
ie SST vs TSX @ 50yds - BIG difference. 1 will be 'gore and mutilation' where the other is 'I like that hole'




> You are not going to convince me


I think that is exactly the problem regardless of the discussion...

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## Toby

Do you really need to make a big fuss over my comment?

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## Toby

Here are some projectiles pulled out of things, I will take better photos when I go home but for now these should do. there is a shotgun pellet from a goose, 2 .22lr projectiles from turkeys, and a .44Magnum from my uncle, deer dropped on the spot from that shot about 15m away from memory, When he gave me them for my collection he had stroys with each one.

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## Scribe

> Fuck mate do you work for PETA or something?


Actually Tussock I dont work for PETA perhaps you missed that point. It seems here that L.R wanted to bring them into this conversation as you can see here. Perhaps you guys might like to ask him/her some of these questions.

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## Toby

> Actually Tussock I dont work for PETA perhaps you missed that point. It seems here that L.R wanted to bring them into this conversation as you can see here. Perhaps you guys might like to ask him/her some of these questions.


They way you are over reacting about nothing here is why some people would question if you work for peta.

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## CreepingDeath

Avast, i was there as my alter ego "killem all".

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## Toby

Just going through my old photos, Here is a goat shot with a .50cal muzzle loader, I stalked it to about 10m then shot it in the chest, that is where the ball exited. The goat ran about 15m and just died in mid run. Was my first goat I shot with a muzzle loader, The billy I shot first at about 25m ran into some bushs and I couldnt find it which pissed me off, I stalked it for over a hour to get that close.

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## CreepingDeath

150 sst 270 wsm . Shot high behind the shoulder blade on opposite side there were two exits around the same size. I think one was the jacket and the other the core.

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## Toby

Would that be good that it broke in half and made 2 exit holes, or would it be bad losing lead because you lose the weight? does the lead coming apart from the jacket make a difference in energy delivered?, sorry for asking heaps, also if you got a exit wound, would it mean that the projectile did not release all of it's energy into the animal?

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## leathel

I didn't get any pic's of the pig I carved up as I was short ot time and didn't have the camera with me but the 270 140AB went in the front shoulder one side down the length of the pig and ended up in the oppersite rear leg in a nice mushroom shape an weighed in at 95.5gr so it lost 44.5gr of its weight after breaking two legbones and some ribs...the rear leg had little damage... front not so much

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## CreepingDeath

Thats the million dollar question. I prefer pass throughs some prefer internal grenades. I dont think the sst did its job this time it is ment to be a tipped interlock. Ive never had failures with interlocks.

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## Scribe

> All down to interpretation 
> 
> To _me_; the terminal performance is something he looks for in a projectile, as was asking if it was a bang flog.
> D.R.T. with the exit wound that you prefer based on prior kills = perfect projectile
> ie SST vs TSX @ 50yds - BIG difference. 1 will be 'gore and mutilation' where the other is 'I like that hole'
> 
> 
> I think that is exactly the problem regardless of the discussion...


Well "spanners" me old mate the time has come around again. Two months ago I asked you to take my name off your members roll. 

You refused to do it for me....So I will ask again....Will you take my name off the members roll.
  Who the hell do you think you are to refuse that request anyway.... I have long ago figured that I have little in common with most of your forum members. 

You might be interested in why I made that decision at the time....
1/ Well at that time you banned a member...Fair enough, ban who you like but dont set out to destroy his character on this forum when he is unable to defend himself because of this banning.
2/ Gimp told me if wanted to discuss 1080 I could fuck off somewhere else. Good advice I thought at the time actually.

I have always had a sort of revulsion toward people that like to show gory photos around. We had a few in Vietnam that liked to take photos of people and animals that had been blown up or shot. History showed us that most of these soldiers had deep underlying character flaws. If you want to do this sort of thing email the photos to your mate who may have a similar bent, this public forum is not the place for you. 

Much of our 1080 work that is going on all over the country is centered around the cruelty side of death by 1080. We constantly have our work thrown back in our face by DOC AHB and Regional Councils because they often produce photo's and videos of hunters either packing a pig with dogs or some hunter showing a picture of a deer in some distressing position or other. Worst of all these videos/photos are taken by hunters themselves but we get them thrown into our face as examples that hunting is cruel.

So with that short sermon I bid you all adieu....I hope I dont meet most of you again. I dont want to belong to a Forum that posts gore  "spanners" So be a good boy and hit the button and send me spinning off into the ether.

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## Toby

Well I guess if you got a pass through it would help with tracking blood, but that is more of a bow hunting.

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## CreepingDeath

Im taking my bat and ball and going home.... meanies

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## Toby



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## Spanners

No probs Scribe. Will do ask you ask. 
There are 2 sides to every story and discussion and seeing both sides is unfortunately something you miss.

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## veitnamcam

> Would that be good that it broke in half and made 2 exit holes, or would it be bad losing lead because you lose the weight? does the lead coming apart from the jacket make a difference in energy delivered?, sorry for asking heaps, also if you got a exit wound, would it mean that the projectile did not release all of it's energy into the animal?


It all depends what you want from a projectile Toby. Frangible (explody) projectiles will drop a lung shot deer(slipped in behind the shoulder on a quartering away animal) like the hammer of Thor and often not even touch the far shoulder if closish. however that same pill up close on the shoulder of a hairy/ covered in mud/ thick skinned/big animal_ MAY_ just make a dinner plate sized mess of the shoulder without even penetrating the chest cavity. (Iv had it happen more than once,hence the Barnes for close now)
The slower a projectile is going when it hits(further away or low launch vel) the more frangible it must be to mushroom or fragment.
The slower it is going the more desirable fragmentation is for a quick kill.
Explody pills are also great for neck shots as even if you do miss the spine by a wee bit fragmentation will still damage the spine.

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## CreepingDeath

Heres the way i look at it toby. If you get bullet expansion like your sposed to and create a large wound channel through either vitals or blood vessels then a decent exit wound to dump the blood death is imminent. I understand the idea od explody type projectiles disintergrating everytjing in its chest cavity when it slips through the rib cage but they limit you in the shots you can take and give you slim margin for error. Hitting bone with these bullets can defflect or pain fail to penetrate causeing massive flesh wounds that can result in long painful deaths with nk recovery. This isnt set in stone its just the way i see it. And im also having a rifle built to shoot then162 amax a notoriously explody bullet but im counting on accuracy and bullet weight to counteract its downfalls.

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## Toby

There seems to be alot more to projectiles then I used to think. Thanks for helping out, I have become rather interested in them alot. It seems there is no god projectile then is there that would cover close/long range on any animal in NZ?

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## veitnamcam

> Thats the million dollar question. I prefer pass throughs some prefer internal grenades.* I dont think the sst did its job this time it is ment to be a tipped interlock. Ive never had failures with interlocks.*
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


+1 the plastic tip makes them much more violent, Not a bush pill IMHO unless you only shoot them in the neck or slip it in behind the shoulder and thats just not possible a lot of the time.

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## CreepingDeath

Not really. The nosler partition would be a good compromise with a decent b.c and solid rear section. The sst has worked well for me with that picture being the exception. But for real long range projectile you need an ecceptional b.c and realatively explody design to ensure expansion at lower velocities. The new monolithic bullet ie barnes gmx ect are indestructable and expand well creating good wound channels and normally always exit even in smaller calibres, but have poor b.cs im sure with technological advances this will change.

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## veitnamcam

> There seems to be alot more to projectiles then I used to think. Thanks for helping out, I have become rather interested in them alot. It seems there is no god projectile then is there that would cover close/long range on any animal in NZ?


Depends what you call long range and what cal your using. the 338s and 375s 416s etc im sure would kill up close with any projectile there is just so much energy.

Something like a interbond/sirroco/accubond would probably go well out of something that can push them fast enough out to 600 odd but i dont own anything that can. So I run Barnes/amax

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## Toby

Is reloading cheaper? or does that depend on how much you shoot.

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## CreepingDeath

The accubonds are HARD aim for bone

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## Scribe

> We did not remove you, as we figured (correctly) you would want to come back. Finding the website, logging in, and posting, is a conscious decision. If you really didnt want to be a member, you would not have gone through that process, would you. 
> 
> If you disnt like the place, you wouldnt post.


Tussock old fruit I came back to this forum for two reasons...

1/ To have a bit of a social chat and rest from writing all those hours every day.

2/ To get my name off the membership list.

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## CreepingDeath

Dont forget to twist your knickers

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## Lentil

> Tussock old fruit I came back to this forum for two reasons...
> 
> 1/ To have a bit of a social chat and rest from writing all those hours every day.
> 
> 2/ To get my name off the membership list.



Don't worry Scribe. I guarantee that most hunters have a reasonable empathy with the animals we hunt. I really like filming them, and also seem to spend more time on the video camera in the maimai. However, I also want to harvest the game for the table. We just have to accept that some people think deeply about the animals/birds, and others couldn't give a shit about them. They just want some meat. Doesn't mean that one point of view makes them superior - like a fly fisherman scorning the threadliner. After all, the animal still dies to provide food for us. 
I also don't particularly like if the graphic photos are used as a brag session, which I feel some were doing, however, there is merit in examining the end results of projectiles and their efficiencies. Don't leave the site just because some people don't like your point of view. Just accept that you have your beliefs and others have theirs which you do not agree with.

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## Scribe

> Don't worry Scribe. I guarantee that most hunters have a reasonable empathy with the animals we hunt. I really like filming them, and also seem to spend more time on the video camera in the maimai. However, I also want to harvest the game for the table. We just have to accept that some people think deeply about the animals/birds, and others couldn't give a shit about them. They just want some meat. Doesn't mean that one point of view makes them superior - like a fly fisherman scorning the threadliner. After all, the animal still dies to provide food for us. 
> I also don't particularly like if the graphic photos are used as a brag session, which I feel some were doing, however, there is merit in examining the end results of projectiles and their efficiencies. Don't leave the site just because some people don't like your point of view. Just accept that you have your beliefs and others have theirs which you do not agree with.


I am not worried 'lentil" I will devote the time I spend on here to 1080 work though I do enough of that as it is my Wife reconds.

I cannot reconcile my work with 1080 and this forums production of ammunition for the enemy just to throw back into our face. 

It is a bit hard to persuade landowners to accept hunting and trapping as a viable alternative to residual poisons like 1080 when I belong to a group like this.

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## Spudattack

> Not really. The nosler partition would be a good compromise with a decent b.c and solid rear section. The sst has worked well for me with that picture being the exception. But for real long range projectile you need an ecceptional b.c and realatively explody design to ensure expansion at lower velocities. The new monolithic bullet ie barnes gmx ect are indestructable and expand well creating good wound channels and normally always exit even in smaller calibres, but have poor b.cs im sure with technological advances this will change.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


Speaking of Barnes BCs, has anyone tried the new LRX's? From what I read they supposed to be the shizzle, they do a 168gr in 7mm but needs a 1:9 tist, i only have a 1:9.5.  :Oh Noes:

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## 7mmsaum

Give them a try Spudattack, you might be suprised.

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## CreepingDeath

You mite be surprised. Get a sample pack and see if they shoot. Work up to a warm load often a little more speed will sort stability issues. And your only half an inch of the suggested twist anyway

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## Spudattack

Was very tempted, might just go and do it now! I like the idea of those because at least if you stumble in on a deer a 50 yards you can still be confident they won't just blow up and not penetrate, while still doing the business in terms of BC. Have any of you tried them?

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## DAF

> Was very tempted, might just go and do it now! I like the idea of those because at least if you stumble in on a deer a 50 yards you can still be confident they won't just blow up and not penetrate, while still doing the business in terms of BC. Have any of you tried them?


I use the 7mm 145 Gn LRX for 200yards and under in my 7mmSAUM, they shot very well.


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## CreepingDeath

The amaxs will still kill there just messy up close.i used them exclusively in my 300wsm 155 grainers and they were humming. They killed up close but like I said messy.

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## NZHTR

> Here are some projectiles pulled out of things, I will take better photos when I go home but for now these should do. there is a shotgun pellet from a goose, 2 .22lr projectiles from turkeys, and a .44Magnum from my uncle, deer dropped on the spot from that shot about 15m away from memory, When he gave me them for my collection he had stroys with each one.
> 
> Attachment 3747


How many dirt banks you kill with these buba ?

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## Spudattack

> I use the 7mm 145 Gn LRX for 200yards and under in my 7mmSAUM, they shot very well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why only out to 200yrds? Or am I reading that wrong and you saying they work well under 200yrds? I am currently loading the 150gr ttsx and very happy with them, was more interested in something that would work out a bit further.

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## DAF

Agree they work great, but wanted to reduce the "mess" meat damage a bit


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## Toby

all the mushroomed ones are pulled from animals, those other projectiles dad gave them to me, they have rifling on them but no damage to the projectile it's self pretty strange although im sure there is a logical reason how they got there.

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## DAF

> Why only out to 200yrds? Or am I reading that wrong and you saying they work well under 200yrds? I am currently loading the 150gr ttsx and very happy with them, was more interested in something that would work out a bit further.


Nothing wrong with them at all, I think they are great, i just found the 162 A - Max was rather spectacular under 200 yards and the Barnes had the same poi out to about 250 yards. 



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## Spudattack

> Nothing wrong with them at all, I think they are great, i just found the 162 A - Max was rather spectacular under 200 yards and the Barnes had the same poi out to about 250 yards. 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sweet, get what you saying, did you by any chance try to stretch their legs or just leave em at that?

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## Spanners

Scribe if you want to go then go, it's your choice and you are free to leave. 
We didn't delete you after the last toy throwing episode as we knew you would be back- and you were. 
If you feel you have nothing more to contribute and don't want to be a part of this great place, then simply don't log back in. 
I think you have more than ran away with the wrong end of the stick, but end of the day it's your choice to stay here or go.

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## DAF

> Sweet, get what you saying, did you by any chance try to stretch their legs or just leave em at that?


I just left it at that as the 162 a-max has always been such a great performer for me.


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## tui_man2

Who shoots animals these days?:rolleyes:

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## Happy

More info than you can shake a stick at including pics is Terminal Ballistics Research. NZ guy Nathan hes knows more than anyone I ve spoken to about ballistics reloading projectile performance and how to make your factory gun a whole lot more accurate.
He is a very helpful guy.

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