# Hunting > Hunting >  Hunter shot in Kaimai Range near Te Aroha

## Slug

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/102...-near-te-aroha

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## tanqueray

The Kaimais aren’t west of Te Aroha? Maybe on farmland, or more likely stuff reporting.

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## 223nut

Let's hope he makes it... And he is the only one this roar....

IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET

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## Ryan_Songhurst

This really makes my blood boil, EVERY bloody year some fucking retard does this, every year, without fail. Don't go giving me that "it could happen to anyone" shit either, it happens to asshole over inflated ego sociopaths that shouldn't be in charge of a firearm. Time to get tough on them, it's not manslaughter, it's murder, lock them up and throw away the key.

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## timattalon

Dont get all upset yet. It may not be a case of Identifying the target, it could be an accidental discharge which is breaking a very different rule...or even inflicted upon the shooter by themselves if that is the case.....Either way, IT SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED!

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## R93

> This really makes my blood boil, EVERY bloody year some fucking retard does this, every year, without fail. Don't go giving me that "it could happen to anyone" shit either, it happens to asshole over inflated ego sociopaths that shouldn't be in charge of a firearm. Time to get tough on them, it's not manslaughter, it's murder, lock them up and throw away the key.


I totally agree. If it is miss identification there seems to be science  providing excuses as well.
People seeing and identifying deer and firing.....killing or wounding a human.
Its bullshit imo. I have never seen phantom deer morph into humans or vice versa.











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## stretch

Although 64% of firearms incidents [not necessarily fatalities] while hunting large game ARE due to misidentification, perhaps we should wait a bit before analysing it. Nothing has come out about this fatality to suggest it's a case of target misidentification. It may have been self-inflicted during a trip or a fall. 




> This really makes my blood boil, EVERY bloody year some fucking retard does this, every year, without fail.


If you ARE indeed referring to target misidentification, records have been kept since 1979, and 26 of the 39 years since then have had a fatality attributed to target misidentification. So there have been 13 years where there were none.





> Time to get tough on them, it's not manslaughter, it's murder, lock them up and throw away the key.


No. If there was no intent to kill a person, then it's manslaughter.





> Don't go giving me that "it could happen to anyone" shit either, it happens to asshole over inflated ego sociopaths that shouldn't be in charge of a firearm.


Yeah, nah. Sorry, I'm going to go there. IF this was a case of target misidentification, then it CAN happen to anyone. Humans are fallible, and will always make mistakes. You can follow the 7 basic rules and still fuck it up.  In most cases of misidentification of the target, the shooter was adamant they were shooting at an animal. Confirmation Bias is a real thing where your brain tricks itself into seeing what it is expecting to see. It happens to pilots and has explained various plane crashes, and it happens to hunters who are searching the bush for a deer. They are thinking "is that a deer" and looking for things that reinforce that view, rather than asking " is it a person" and looking for evidence of that.

We ask ourselves the wrong questions in the heat of the moment and it sends us to the wrong conclusion.

There are no such things as accidents, so instead of pointing the finger at the shooter and saying "they fucked up. They didn't follow the rules", we need to find out HOW and WHY they messed up and got it so wrong. That way we can indentify the what went wrong and develop techniques to reduce the number of times it occurs.

There is a whole subject on this, called Human Factors - a study on how and why humans make mistakes and how they contribute to accidents. This is not unique to hunting, as it happens across industries. Aviation, Maritime shipping, Oil & Gas, Medicine, etc.

Yes, the shooter is to blame, but blame does nothing to prevent this happening again. I'm interested in the nitty gritty of the how and the why, and hopefully learning something from this tragedy. Cognitive biases do not make these mistakes ok, but it helps us understand how and why they happen so we can be aware of our own fallibility and develop techniques to mitigate it.

This is a good time to stop and have a read of Mountain Safety Council's research on hunting accidents and fatalities. https://issuu.com/nzmountainsafetyco...22887/44292171

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## A330driver

Quote..”It happens to pilots and has explained various plane crashes, and it happens to hunters who are searching the bush for a deer.”

That statement in itself is a very interesting point,I know I’ve been guilty of it myself(the aircraft side of things).....read impact Erebus,some very interesting info on this very subject.I think Stretch,makes a compelling argument here,yes there is carelessness,fuckwits etc,very hard to defend this action,and as R93 states,a deer does not look like a human,follow the 7 rules and your ticketiboo.....not so.....it will be interesting to read the dialogue from the shooter and the “shot”......

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## Rushy

Tragic nonetheless

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## viper

First one of the season, I hope it's the last but there's a pretty good chance going from years before it may not be. Roar has barely started.

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## stretch

> If it is miss identification there seems to be science  providing excuses as well.


Not excuses, but a reason. Big difference.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

@stretch get of the grass mate all you have done is explained the thought processes of a sociopath that thinks they are to clever to follow any kind of proper procedure and wrapped it up in a big old wet blanket of an excuse called "human nature"
I sure as fuck don't go through any stupid "heat of the moment" thought process that would result in me shooting another human being and if you really believe the dribble you have said then maybe you need to go hand in your licence.

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## Gibo

> Although 64% of firearms incidents [not necessarily fatalities] while hunting large game ARE due to misidentification, perhaps we should wait a bit before analysing it. Nothing has come out about this fatality to suggest it's a case of target misidentification. It may have been self-inflicted during a trip or a fall. 
> 
> 
> 
> If you ARE indeed referring to target misidentification, records have been kept since 1979, and 26 of the 39 years since then have had a fatality attributed to target misidentification. So there have been 13 years where there were none.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, not if you follow them.

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## huglife

Fukn pain in the arse this roar thing. Can't wait for duck shooting to start so I only have to share the hills with a few others. 

Bought a huntech blaze orange ghillie but now i'm not convinced that it is more safe than anything else, might just make me an easy target for some fuckwit dreaming of taking a photo for his facebook with my corpse.

I'll just be hunting by boosting up the main track to clearings looking at other clearings for the roar so hopefully i'll be safe. It would take a complete fuckwit and snapshot to shoot somebody sitting glassing from a clearing.

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## stretch

> No, not if you follow them.


Not true. "Identify your target beyond all doubt" SHOULD be enough, but it's not. People convince themselves it's an animal to the point where there is no doubt in their mind, yet they are still wrong. 

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## huglife

maybe hunters aged 50-64 should be banned during the roar as they account for 59% of human killers  :Psmiley:  :Thumbsup:

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## stretch

> @stretch get of the grass mate all you have done is explained the thought processes of a sociopath that thinks they are to clever to follow any kind of proper procedure and wrapped it up in a big old wet blanket of an excuse called "human nature"
> I sure as fuck don't go through any stupid "heat of the moment" thought process that would result in me shooting another human being and if you really believe the dribble you have said then maybe you need to go hand in your licence.


I don't get where sociopaths come into this. Is that where a shooter doesn't care one way or another if it's a human? I'm not calling Confirmation Bias an excuse at all. It's one reason these incidents happen, but it does not excuse the behaviour - it merely explains it.

Your second point makes it sound like you're saying "It'll never happen to me". That's a dangerous attitude. I think awareness of Confirmation Bias can make people safer hunters, IF they employ techniques to minimise it's effects.

Which bit do you think is bullshit? Confirmation Bias in general, or it's application to the scenario where a hunter misidentifies their target?

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## Gibo

> Not true. "Identify your target beyond all doubt" SHOULD be enough, but it's not. People convince themselves it's an animal to the point where there is no doubt in their mind, yet they are still wrong. 
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


It worries me that you see that as ok. You must to be so vocal to support that view.

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## A330driver

Just reading this,...something is so wrong....so called experienced hunters..REALLY??? The so called seven rules do not take into account human factors,when the hunt is on.......Im in the buisness of dealing with human factors.....humans make unbelievably stupid decisions,.....no amount of solid rules will solve this issue,.....the deaths and shootings prove that rules,no matter hard you stick to them ...cockups are inevitable......The human factors Gibo?,some/ many are better at dealing with them than others.....



Quote....Long senior mistook his son for a deer through about 20 metres of bush after spending a considerable amount of time trying to identify his target.

Tragically, he was convinced his target was a deer when he pulled the trigger.

An experienced hunter and member of the Southland Deerstalkers Association, Long  senior, like so many before him, failed to follow the basic firearms rule. Identify the target before pulling the trigger.

He isn't alone.

Just 11 months earlier, another experienced Southland deer stalker and hunting safety advocate, 56-year-old Wayne Edgerton from Tuatapere, accidentally shot and killed 25-year-old Adam Hill who was hunting with a separate party in the Longwood Range.

It was inexplicable, Judge Michael Turner said at Edgerton's sentencing, that a man with his background would pull the trigger without clearly identifying his target.

That appears to be the crux of the problem.

Both Edgerton and Stephen Long were convinced they had identified their targets and were shooting at deer, not people.

In Long's case, he told police he spent "two or three" minutes confirming it was a deer, both with his naked eye and by looking through the rifle scope. He moved left and then right to identify his target and he saw, he mistakenly believed, the deer feeding and antlers on its head before pulling the trigger, killing his son.

Edgerton, hearing several roars of what he believed was a stag, walked towards the sound and saw, both with the naked eye and through a scope, what he believed was a deer. He checked the target again with his naked eye, raised the rifle, and fired, killing Hill who was wearing brightly coloured hunting clothing. 

Only Davidson, Long and Edgerton, and the others who mistakenly shot people while deer hunting, know what was going through their minds before they pulled the trigger. 

But what is known is many hunters who fatally shoot other hunters convince themselves it is a deer - rather than prove to themselves it is not a deer.

New Zealand Deerstalkers Association president Bill O'Leary says hunters should treat every movement and sound in the bush as being a person.

"And it's only when the deer positively identifies itself that you pull the trigger."

Positively identifying a deer requires hunters to see the head, neck and shoulders of the animal at the same time, not pieces of a deer or what they think are pieces of a deer. 

He also stressed that hunters should wear high-visibility orange or blue so it was easier for other hunters to identify them.

They should never use their telescopic sights to identify deer, which Edgerton and Long had both done, because the sights magnified the image and often showed only a small piece of the animal.

O'Leary says about 60 per cent of people shot in mistaken identity cases while deer hunting were shot by people in their own hunting parties, as was the case with Vanderley and Long.

Reasons for the shootings vary, with mistaken identity and the accidental discharge of firearms prevalent.

Two of the five cases this year were the result of failing to identify the target.

"We know why they happen. They don't identify their targets. Why does it happen? That's got us flummoxed," O'Leary says.

"We traditionally thought it was people who were young and inexperienced. But we have got people who are middle-aged, experienced hunters, and they are failing to identify."

O'Leary, who chairs a multi-agency committee focused on improving gun safety, says a possible reason is that some older hunters have poorer eyesight and are perhaps a bit blase when hunting. They perhaps rely too much on their past deer shooting experiences to draw conclusions - instead of going through the methodical process of fully identifying their targets.

Older and experienced hunters were often looking for a flicker of movement, such as the white from a deer's tail, and not seeing the whole of the deer, O'Leary suggests.   

Hunting tragedies while spotlighting was another issue being looked at, but it comes back to the golden rule. It is safe if people identify their targets, O'Leary says.

O'Leary and Nicole McKee, the former NZ Mountain Safety Council programme manager for firearms and hunter safety, believe the increasing numbers of hunters in New Zealand is a factor in the increased number of shootings.

"Hunting nationally is on the increase, there's more people out there participating," McKee said when she was still working at the mountain safety council.

Her aim was to have the seven basic rules of firearms safety embedded into the brains of hunters, so they abide by the rules as naturally as motorists put seatbelts on when getting into their cars.

McKee says at least one of the seven basic firearms rules was broken in each of the reports about hunting tragedies she has read.

"When you read some of this stuff you will be pretty gobsmacked about how some of these events occurred. We are actually trying to say, these things have happened due to the breakdown of common sense and people failing to abide by the seven rules."

Richard Vanderley says each time another deer hunting tragedy hits the news, the death of his own son comes flooding back.

"It hits you like a wave again. You know another couple of families have been torn apart.

"Accidents, carelessness, stupidity ... but the fallout is just immense."

The NZ Mountain Safety Council, which is undergoing a restructure, plans to analyse hunting tragedies and injuries so trends and hotspots can be identified and new initiatives developed to try and keep hunters safe, she says.

But there is no simple fix, and McKee knows it, because the human factor comes into play.

"Once they are out there and in the thick of the roar and the adrenaline is pumping, people forget those things [safety rules]. It's still going to happen, but if we can reduce it because people think more and are better educated, it's worthwhile. If a life is saved, it's worthwhile."

With more than 241,000 licensed firearms holders in New Zealand, McKee suggests a way to get the message to the masses is to get alongside corporates and publicise safety messages ahead of the popular stag and duck hunting seasons, when accidental shootings often occur.

She believes the number of tragedies can be reduced.

But for some it is too late, and the pain doesn't go away.

Mark Vanderley, and 27 others killed in deer hunting tragedies in the past 24 years, aren't coming home.

"We just feel he has been robbed,"  Vanderley's mother says.

"He was a good person, he had a lot to offer. It's just so unfair."

 - Stuff

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## A330driver

Quote”The NZ Mountain Safety Council, which is undergoing a restructure, plans to analyse hunting tragedies and injuries so trends and hotspots can be identified and new initiatives developed to try and keep hunters safe, she says.

But there is no simple fix, and McKee knows it, because the human factor comes into play.”......end quote

Gibo...from the same article......this bloke must be full of shit too.....nothing personal,I have the opinion that you know your stuff,and are sure you personally would never make these types of errors,......we are all different,individuals “human factors” are different,...I see and deal with it every day,.......human factors fuck up basic rules

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## Gibo

> Quote”The NZ Mountain Safety Council, which is undergoing a restructure, plans to analyse hunting tragedies and injuries so trends and hotspots can be identified and new initiatives developed to try and keep hunters safe, she says.
> 
> But there is no simple fix, and McKee knows it, because the human factor comes into play.”......end quote
> 
> Gibo...from the same article......this bloke must be full of shit too.....


I'm not saying they are full of shit, I just don't support this easy excuse every time someone is shot. If you know what sex the animal is and a guess at its age I cant see how a human would fit into any of that. Some people also need to settle the fuck down when hunting, its only a bloody deer (or what have you).

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## stug

About 25 years ago I was hunting in Pureora when I heard a noise up the ridge ahead of me. I could see the rear end of a deer facing a way from me. I could see the rump patch and about half its back. I decided to move ahead of a small shrub before I took a shot. The deer moved a bit and looked a bit funny. It seemed to have two rump patches. It took a few seconds before I realised it was actually a hunter.

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## stretch

> It worries me that you see that as ok. You must to be so vocal to support that view.


Where did I say it was OK? It does not excuse or condone what happens, it merely helps explain HOW or WHY it happens, in some, not all cases. I'm vocal because these are not accidents. There are very few, if any, true accidents. The shooter messed up, but that's not the end of it. WHY did they? "Identify your target beyond all doubt" needs to be broken down further. Doubt yourself further. Don't trust your eyes or your ears or your brain.

I've seen first hand how confirmation bias has lead people to the incorrect conclusion in land navigation, air navigation, piloting, engineering, and I can see how it could affect someone trying to ID a target.

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## A330driver

Yeah mate,great points,I’m with you on that,........it’s incredible,sad,deplorable  how many of us are getting shot.......reading the words from these articles doesnt do us any justice,because it’s does not address the situation,the time and the happening event,.....fucked up I know.....I see pilots do fucking dumb shit in a simulator ,crashing airplanes,and it’s like,are you fucking serious,what drove you to that.......it’s a complete loss of your environment,situational awareness,rules etc etc.......but what drove them to that?????.....what drove them to disobey 7 basic rules that should have stopped these events...





> I'm not saying they are full of shit, I just don't support this easy excuse every time someone is shot. If you know what sex the animal is and a guess at its age I cant see how a human would fit into any of that. Some people also need to settle the fuck down when hunting, its only a bloody deer (or what have you).

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## Gibo

I think we are all thinking the same things just all a bit emo on it  :Have A Nice Day:  

Somehow we need to teach people to slow down, be sure and know what they need to see before pulling that trigger. Not easy I know.

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## Timmay

> About 25 years ago I was hunting in Pureora when I heard a noise up the ridge ahead of me. I could see the rear end of a deer facing a way from me. I could see the rump patch and about half its back. I decided to move ahead of a small shrub before I took a shot. The deer moved a bit and looked a bit funny. It seemed to have two rump patches. It took a few seconds before I realised it was actually a hunter.


For just that reason I carry a strip of Blaze orange cloth (about the size of a beanie unfolded) and a safty pin with me. If I shoot a deer close enough to the road as to carry the whole thing out I pin the strip of cloth the back of the deer.




> This is a good time to stop and have a read of Mountain Safety Council's research on hunting accidents and fatalities. https://issuu.com/nzmountainsafetyco...22887/44292171


Thank you for that link Stretch, That booklet holds a lot of eyeopening information. 

Perhaps a thread on near misses (ie slips/falls/what stug posted) might be educational for everyone?  Far more constructive than the direction this thread is taking.

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## A330driver

Ditto on that mate....the reoccurring them in the article above is....”they don’t identify the target”.....because if they did,we wouldn’t be having this conversation.......there has to be a much better attempt by all of us to figure this out and help one another out.....because sure as shit,I don’t want to be on either end of one of these stories





> I think we are all thinking the same things just all a bit emo on it  
> 
> Somehow we need to teach people to slow down, be sure and know what they need to see before pulling that trigger. Not easy I know.

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## tetawa

> maybe hunters aged 50-64 should be banned during the roar as they account for 59% of human killers


So being over 64 it's ok for me to hunt during the roar, thank you.

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## tetawa

Been out and about over Easter in Pureora, have met all sorts in my travels. Some on their only hunting outing for the year and have to shoot something. Others quite relaxed and waiting for the bush to go back to "normal". One thing that really stood out was the number of hunters in blue blaze.

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## stretch

Words from a mate of mine (no, not Ginger McScragglyBeard). Worth a read:

https://gearlocker.nz/well-the-roar-is-nearly-upon-us/

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## northdude

My opinion is that humans are actually pretty fukn dumb we can't even follow basic common sense rules we can't stick to a speed limit don't stop for red lights or stop signs don't stop for pedestrian crossings cross centre lines use phone when driving and the list is endless so its highly unlikely that your going to stop the dumb arses shooting each other most intelligent animal on the planet.  Yea right

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## Sarvo

> About 25 years ago I was hunting in Pureora when I heard a noise up the ridge ahead of me. I could see the rear end of a deer facing a way from me. I could see the rump patch and about half its back. I decided to move ahead of a small shrub before I took a shot. The deer moved a bit and looked a bit funny. It seemed to have two rump patches. It took a few seconds before I realised it was actually a hunter.


I want to relay a true happening in the same place - Pureora (been a few fatalities there to I might add)

Mate of mine came back to camp in a bit of a state.
He was coming down a ridge (a ridge that was reasonably open covered in Kidney ferns)
He luckily spotted approx 60m away a Hunter knelt down with rifle pointed directly at him - he yelled out (he does not remember what he yelled)
He also cannot remember the time frame between yelling and the Hunter standing with rifle down

That Hunter dropped his rifle and clasped his face in his hands 

After an emotional and most likely a verbal abuse from mate (he had a firy temper) the Hunter said to him over and over again
"mate - you were a Deer 110%  in my eyes"
How - how - he kept saying could I see a Deer when clearly now you are another man

It woke us all up - as then (80's) there were a few of us getting tipped over
The Hunter had been hunting a long time and he just could not believe what happened
If my mate had not of screamed out - as Hunter said - he would be dead !!

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## Bonecrusher

With it being my patch local and an area I hunt frequently knowledge indicates it was in the Tuahu Track vicinity. Very steep country on the Waikato side > I'm leaning to it having occurred in the exotic forestry block (Rayonier Forests ) 

Attached map for reference track > lakes private block 

Tuahu Track: Walking and tramping in Kaimai Mamaku Forest Park

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## Tahr

Its interesting that there are emotional responses here (anger is an emotion) from people who claim that they would never shoot anyone because they are rational and sensible. Its a paradox. In the moment who knows how we would respond. If we suffer from emotional over-ride on a hunting forum goodness knows what we might do in the bush.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

So you're saying there's a possibility you could shoot someone because you mistook them for a deer @Tahr?

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## GWH

I believe this particular instance was a case of mis-identification of target and the poor bugger was indeed shot by another member of his hunting party.

RIP

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## stug

> I want to relay a true happening in the same place - Pureora (been a few fatalities there to I might add)
> 
> Mate of mine came back to camp in a bit of a state.
> He was coming down a ridge (a ridge that was reasonably open covered in Kidney ferns)
> He luckily spotted approx 60m away a Hunter knelt down with rifle pointed directly at him - he yelled out (he does not remember what he yelled)
> He also cannot remember the time frame between yelling and the Hunter standing with rifle down
> 
> That Hunter dropped his rifle and clasped his face in his hands 
> 
> ...


Had the same thing happen in Pureora a few years after the first incident. My mate and I were stalking along a face I looked up and saw a hunter kneeling down aiming his rifle, looking through the scope, at where my mate was. I yelled out and the hunter put his rifle down. He had heard us coming through the bush. He was waiting for my mate to come out in the open before he took the shot. I not 100% certain he had seen him and mistaken him for a deer, but he was expecting him to be a deer. 

The mind set that needs to change is the expectation of seeing a deer. We need to expect to see another hunter, then realise it is a deer.

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## Tahr

> So you're saying there's a possibility you could shoot someone because you mistook them for a deer @Tahr?


I'm certainly scared stiff of doing it. I've never been tested and hope I never am. 

I know that my life has been full of important decision making that has affected myself and others'. Some decisions have been excellent, and some have been shit. The shit decisions have mostly been in emotional situations or when I haven't allowed enough time to consider the causes or consequence. In day to day life time-forced decisions are often the worst we make, and if you chuck in confirmation bias and emotion we are going to stuff up occasionally. 

No one is immune. None of us are infallible. Hopefully its this knowledge that keeps me and others safe.

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## Sideshow

Well in my opinion just be bloody careful make sure it's not you pulling the trigger.
When hunting in that area I heard guys coming through the bush. I got in behind as large a tree as possible and shouted out don't shoot!
Where blaze of some kind.
If you think it's that unsafe don't go.
Stay safe.
Shame it's happened on my old back door.
That's where I saw my first deer in the wild, on my very first trip. Took me three years to get my first. Patience girls and boys! 
Patience there's no do over, it's not a video game.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> I'm certainly scared stiff of doing it. I've never been tested and hope I never am. 
> 
> I know that my life has been full of important decision making that has affected myself and others'. Some decisions have been excellent, and some have been shit. The shit decisions have mostly been in emotional situations or when I haven't allowed enough time to consider the causes or consequence. In day to day life time-forced decisions are often the worst we make, and if you chuck in confirmation bias and emotion we are going to stuff up occasionally. 
> 
> No one is immune. None of us are infallible. Hopefully its this knowledge that keeps me and others safe.


Was a yes/no question..

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## 7mmwsm

> So you're saying there's a possibility you could shoot someone because you mistook them for a deer @Tahr?


I had the same attitude as you when I was about your age. 
Then I had a close encounter.

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## Martin358

> Been out and about over Easter in Pureora, have met all sorts in my travels. Some on their only hunting outing for the year and have to shoot something. Others quite relaxed and waiting for the bush to go back to "normal". One thing that really stood out was the number of hunters in blue blaze.


Im colour blind and orange blaze is to me a natural colour in the bush, leaves ect, but the blue stands out really well

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> I had the same attitude as you when I was about your age. 
> Then I had a close encounter.


And the reason your close encounter didn't turn into a tragedy? I'm gonna guess that you identified your target before just Willy nilly pulling the trigger.. well done, you are a rational person. 
I'm not saying that you're doing something wrong if you encounter another hunter in the Bush and have to go through the process of identifying if they are an animal or another hunter, I'm saying that if you don't go through that process then you are 110% to blame for your actions and you deserve to be locked away and the key thrown away. This attitude of "it could happen to anyone" is a pretty shitty way to think and you shouldn't be in the Bush if that's a concern for you.

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## Tahr

> Was a yes/no question..


There is no yes/no answer. Its the _impossibility_ of knowing that should keep us grounded and super-careful.

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## northdude

In this day and age as long as you have an excuse it makes everything OK

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## GWH

After my own personal close encounter a few roars ago,  I personally believe the blaze orange is almost the worst colour you could wear.

I will never wear it after what I saw, and I strongly advise my hunting mates against wearing it.

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## savage270

> I believe this particular instance was a case of mis-identification of target and the poor bugger was indeed shot by another member of his hunting party.
> 
> RIP


Why do people bother meat hunting at the busiest most dangerous time of the year? misidentification shootings would be eliminated in the roar if people hunting in april were only looking for trophy stags. Fill ya freezer up spring/summer. Iv never heard of a mistaken id shooting where the victim was mistaken for a “12pt stag with great length and strong tines” its 100% always just “thought he was a deer”

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## Pointer

> So you're saying there's a possibility you could shoot someone because you mistook them for a deer @Tahr?


We're all capable of it. I bet this weekend's shooter thought it would never happen to him, now he has one of our own's blood on his hands. 

Commiserations to the deceased hunters family.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

Still dancing around the question @Tahr. It's either a possibility for you or it's not. If you are not 110% certain you will never shoot another human in the Bush then maybe take up golf, try not to hit anyone with the ball ...

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## GWH

> Why do people bother meat hunting at the busiest most dangerous time of the year? misidentification shootings would be eliminated in the roar if people hunting in april were only looking for trophy stags. Fill ya freezer up spring/summer. Iv never heard of a mistaken id shooting where the victim was mistaken for a 12pt stag with great length and strong tines its 100% always just thought he was a deer


And maybe that's the answer right there.  Make it illegal to shoot anything but an antlered deer between mid of March to middle of may (or whatever). A bit like the tag system in the US. But only applies to the rut period here.  

It could make people more consious of what it is that they are shooting at.

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## Bagheera

Now were thinking out of the box. Not sure how wed implement that one but its the sort of idea we need

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## csmiffy

yup considering just out of Kumara on the coast had his 12 point pet stag shot out of paddock. so there are people out there who disregard the rules no matter what.
Not quite the same as firearms safety, but more in the vein of the stag only idea. If they can do that, they may still shoot a hind.
Mind you with the amount I get out, if I was looking for a stag and wasn't seeing much a hind may find its way to the freezer on the last day just so the trip wasn't a complete bust? 
Maybe not though as I usually only target what I'm originally after but if I can imagine it, I'm sure someone else would do it.

----------


## Tahr

> Still dancing around the question @Tahr. It's either a possibility for you or it's not. If you are not 110% certain you will never shoot another human in the Bush then maybe take up golf, try not to hit anyone with the ball ...


Your assertion is flawed Ryan. Does your unequivocal certainty keep other hunters' more safe than my uncertainty does? 

My view is that it is a possibility for everyone, including yourself and myself. However, I do and will do everything in my human powers to ensure that it never happens. I back my _vulnerability_ to keep others' safe, not my _certainty_ that I will do the right thing.

I dislike golf.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> Your assertion is flawed Ryan. Does your unequivocal certainty keep other hunters' more safe than my uncertainty does?


Well I know if you lined up a team of blokes on one side that were unsure if they might shoot someone in the Bush, and a team on the other side that were 100% certain they never would, and then asked me which bunch of blokes do you want in the Bush with you? I'm choosing the 100% sure team every time. 
Anyone who has ever shot someone in the Bush can tell me until they are blue in the face that they were certain it was a deer and all their other silly excuses but I'm not buying it, its not like any of them are ever going to admit the truth which is that no, they weren't 100% certain it was a deer.

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## R93

Imo there is a huge difference in how human factors affect aviation and hunting.  Apart from maybe some visual references they should not be compared.

Having concrete standards whether you are meat shooting or trophy hunting will also help prevent poor decision making imo.

Attitude and mindset are where the problem is imo.

Just a few days ago I had a stag come in on me after  yelling out "How are ya going" several times. We were on a ridge and I only roared the once around  5 mins earlier after smelling a stag had been up the ridge where we were.

It had the most pathetic roar and groan I have heard from a deer. I was pretty sure it was another hunter.

My mutt and I got a good look at him as he popped over a knob in front of us in steepish bush. He had that much momentum he just kept running 5 yrds past us and down hill. Dog almost yanked me down the hill after him.




Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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## huglife

All the I saw a deer and took 2 minutes to identify the target through both sight and binos stories would be more believable if there were some stories where the offending Hunter just said I heard a deer coming and popped the first thing I saw. No way did everybody that shot somebody spend the amount of time identifying their target as they say they do; it's the east get out of trouble card and as long as they say it amd can convince somebody it's true the  they will feel a little bit better about themselves

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## tetawa

> And maybe that's the answer right there.  Make it illegal to shoot anything but an antlered deer between mid of March to middle of may (or whatever). A bit like the tag system in the US. But only applies to the rut period here.  
> 
> It could make people more consious of what it is that they are shooting at.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


This is starting to sound like the answers we are getting to the road toll. Instead of looking at the real problem of NOT identifying your target. We could go one step further and ban bush hunting during the roar but if I remember rightly a few have been shot sitting out in the open.

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## savage270

> This is starting to sound like the answers we are getting to the road toll. Instead of looking at the real problem of NOT identifying your target. We could go one step further and ban bush hunting during the roar but if I remember rightly a few have been shot sitting out in the open.


Alot of the blokes pulling the trigger swear they ARE identifying their target tho, the theory is peoples brains are telling them it is a “deer”
Having to identify the type of deer and how good its rack is would surely eliminate this. Anyone who does enough hunting at some stage will know the feeling of thinking something is a deer that turns out is not, you cant eliminate that but you can stop people pulling the trigger on it, worded poorly but you get the idea

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> Alot of the blokes pulling the trigger swear they ARE identifying their target tho, the theory is peoples brains are telling them it is a “deer”
> Having to identify the type of deer and how good its rack is would surely eliminate this. Anyone who does enough hunting at some stage will know the feeling of thinking something is a deer that turns out is not, you cant eliminate that but you can stop people pulling the trigger on it, worded poorly but you get the idea


Yea but of course they're going to say that. There's no ifs or buts about it they know they're talking out their ass and trying to make themselves feel better

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## Bonecrusher

I always hunt with a dog several advantages - indicating game being one, two a good dog is great company, three they hear & smell better than us multiple times one of my dogs have picked human sound and scent before me

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## GWH

> Well I know if you lined up a team of blokes on one side that were unsure if they might shoot someone in the Bush, and a team on the other side that were 100% certain they never would, and then asked me which bunch of blokes do you want in the Bush with you? I'm choosing the 100% sure team every time. 
> Anyone who has ever shot someone in the Bush can tell me until they are blue in the face that they were certain it was a deer and all their other silly excuses but I'm not buying it, its not like any of them are ever going to admit the truth which is that no, they weren't 100% certain it was a deer.


Im not so sure Ryan, i believe that anyone that thinks that they are above this, or that this situation could never happen to them, could potentially be quite dangerous.  

My thinking is that if a person thought that theres no way that they could make this mistake, then it will not always be at front of mind. Whereas if we think that we all have the potential to make this mistake, then surely that must scare us to a certain degree and always be front of mind and we put our own proccedure in place where we perform multiple checks to confirm beyond all doubt that what we are about to shoot is indeed the intended target.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> Im not so sure Ryan, i believe that anyone that thinks that they are above this, or that this situation could never happen to them, could potentially be quite dangerous.  
> 
> My thinking is that if a person thought that theres no way that they could make this mistake, then it will not always be at front of mind. Whereas if we think that we all have the potential to make this mistake, then surely that must scare us to a certain degree and always be front of mind and we put our own proccedure in place where we perform multiple checks to confirm beyond all doubt that what we are about to shoot is indeed the intended target.


Yea.... the person that knows they won't ever shoot a human in the Bush is more dangerous than the person who wouldn't put it past themselves... do you guys actually think before you open your mouths/type things?

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## Moutere

Anyone that believes they're completely 100% infallible to this scenario is kidding themselves.
Also, no one is suggesting it as an excuse to escape blame, it's just part of why it happens.
Error due to human factors are a well studied and understood fact. We use this knowledge to change the way in which we reach conclusions and make decisions. 

Expansion on how to 'identifying your target' needs to be hunter driven.
Is this a game animal yes/no doesn't cut it.
Is this another hunter? Is it a deer? What type of deer is it? What sex is the deer? Is this another hunter? Why am I sure I'm looking at a deer?

The brain can and will try to rationalise what the eyes see and ears hear in order to come up with favourable outcomes. Some people are more susceptible and things like fatigue, past experience, expectation and mood come into play also.

Anyone ever been sitting at the traffic lights, you zone out a little and the truck in the lane next to you starts rolling forwards on a filter light and you almost put the brake pedal through the floor because you think your rolling backwards relative to the other traffic.
For a split second you were positive your stationary vehicle was moving.

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## Sarvo

> I always hunt with a dog several advantages - indicating game being one, two a good dog is great company, three they hear & smell better than us multiple times one of my dogs have picked human sound and scent before me


BUT ~~
I know of another case where a chap was shot (he lived - minus half his shoulder from a 270) In Pureora again :-(
He was huddled into a Toe Toe bush on edge of clearing on evening with his dog - shot from 200m - he never knew what hit hime - woke up in Hamilton Hospital later

I was going to make this comment to  @R93
The GSP breed are the worst - but any 4 legged animal tucked beside you is added danger
I used to put a knitted jersey on my GSP in blue - but it did not stay that blue for long

Yes - your dog would possible growl at the approach of another hunter - but its not you that we are talking about here - its another hunter shooting at you or your dog

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## GWH

> Yea.... the person that knows they won't ever shoot a human in the Bush is more dangerous than the person who wouldn't put it past themselves... do you guys actually think before you open your mouths/type things?


Ryan mate, take a deep breath buddy ;-)  

Back the truck up, have another read of my post.  

I have been tested in the situation in the roar, roaring stag moving in on me, i saw colour and movement thru thick cover at about 50 yards. I was pretty sure it was a deer, but at that point hadnt ID'd it, and my own proceedures meant that i wasnt going to shoot at colour and movement at something that i was pretty sure was a sika stag.

Everything was adding up that it was a stag, but i had not ID'd it beyond all doubt that it was.  Bushes below me started to shake and i expected the stag to emerge from that at any second......then it burst out of the thick cover into the open.........a father and son dressed head to waist in blaze orange.  We all shat ourselves (they too were certain they were stalking a jap stag).

At no point was my gun raised to my shoulder, instead it was in a state of very readiness, pointing 45 deg at ground, thumb on the saftey ready to go.  

I can so see how these things happen.  But it comes down to individuals own personalities, and self check mechanisiums. Everyone is different. But i honestly believe if we all go into the bush knowing that this type of thing has the potential to happen, even to us, then we will be far more consious of it and do the extra checks and confirmations needed to fully confirm ID before we pull the trigger.

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## Mathias

> Yea.... the person that knows they won't ever shoot a human in the Bush is more dangerous than the person who wouldn't put it past themselves... do you guys actually think before you open your mouths/type things?


Ryan, there's a post on here mentioning Wayne Edgerton, the Southland guy who shot another hunter in the Longwoods. I would have put Wayne into your team of 100% sure team, he went to extra lengths to promote hunter safety and identification in his region, even to the point of placing posters about identifying your target on public access-ways to hunting areas. Maybe you should try & contact this fellow and ask him some questions on how he made the mistake, when he had the same single minded viewpoint as your own.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> Ryan mate, take a deep breath buddy ;-)  
> 
> Back the truck up, have another read of my post.  
> 
> I have been tested in the situation in the roar, roaring stag moving in on me, i saw colour and movement thru thick cover at about 50 yards. I was pretty sure it was a deer, but at that point hadnt ID'd it, and my own proceedures meant that i wasnt going to shoot at colour and movement at something that i was pretty sure was a sika stag.
> 
> Everything was adding up that it was a stag, but i had not ID'd it beyond all doubt that it was.  Bushes below me started to shake and i expected the stag to emerge from that at any second......then it burst out of the thick cover into the open.........a father and son dressed head to waist in blaze orange.  We all shat ourselves (they too were certain they were stalking a jap stag).
> 
> At no point was my gun raised to my shoulder, instead it was in a state of very readiness, pointing 45 deg at ground, thumb on the saftey ready to go.  
> ...


Exactly Clint, point being you didn't pull the trigger because you are a rational person, these idiots that shoot people would have been all over that.

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## northdude

I think I have the right in my own country to harvest meat rut or no rut if we start down that track you may as well just ban shooting altogether then no one will get shot will they if you choose to take the shot your responsible for the out come no fuking excuses

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## BRADS

Attitude has a lot to do it i think.
There's a lot of people on this forum I wouldn't want to be anywhere near in the hills.
Not going near the Bush at Easter is a pretty good start, we where walking cows out of a road end yesterday and I counted 25 cars going in over 3 hours.
We Recently walked out down the sparrowhawk track where the soldier got shot it was pretty sobering looking at the scene maybe all hunters should be exposed to a scene  like this??
Having meet the guy that shot the soldier as we flew in at same time it was intersing to see the scene and finish the puzzle.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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## Bonecrusher

> BUT ~~
> I know of another case where a chap was shot (he lived - minus half his shoulder from a 270) In Pureora again :-(
> He was huddled into a Toe Toe bush on edge of clearing on evening with his dog - shot from 200m - he never knew what hit hime - woke up in Hamilton Hospital later
> 
> I was going to make this comment to  @R93
> The GSP breed are the worst - but any 4 legged animal tucked beside you is added danger
> I used to put a knitted jersey on my GSP in blue - but it did not stay that blue for long
> 
> Yes - your dog would possible growl at the approach of another hunter - but its not you that we are talking about here - its another hunter shooting at you or your dog


Not growl indicate 100% I would know that something or someone was incoming with a Labrador working 3M in front of you he would display signs,  air scenting , when his tail stops wagging it is game on.   It is just safer for several reasons if you have a well trained dog working for you

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## Pointer

Let me know when this 110% certain team is heading out hunting so I can be very far away  :Thumbsup:  I'd rather be around people who doubt what they see and hear and constantly check themselves.

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## Sarvo

> Not growl indicate 100% I would know that something or someone was incoming with a Labrador working 3M in front of you he would display signs,  air scenting , when his tail stops wagging it is game on.   It is just safer for several reasons if you have a well trained dog working for you


I have never known a dog to "indicate" another human
But I do not think you have understood my point - spoken from near on 50 years experience with dogs and people :-)

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## Ryan_Songhurst

So I was just talking with another member about this and I came up with an analogy to explain my feelings around this issue, maybe not the best analogy but the shoe fits...
Trying to justify this in anyway shape or form is like blaming a women for being raped because all men have the ABILITY to rape a woman. But do all blokes go around raping women? No they don't, because there are rational thinkers among us, and then there are assholes that don't give a shit what consequences come from their actions, these are the rapists, these are the ones that don't belong in our society or in our sport. All you fellas trying to say that you wouldn't put past yourself to make some kind of mistake are probably best off staying away from women while you're at it, because that is how your mentality comes across...

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## Gibo

> Let me know when this 110% certain team is heading out hunting so I can be very far away  I'd rather be around people who doubt what they see and hear and constantly check themselves.






That's way off what Ryan is getting at and you know it. That's what he is advocating.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> Let me know when this 110% certain team is heading out hunting so I can be very far away  I'd rather be around people who doubt what they see and hear and constantly check themselves.


Where did I state that I dont doubt everything I see and hear? Or that anyone for that matter who knows they're never going to shoot someone doesn't doubt what they see and hear? 
Did I say anywhere that I can tell from a mile off if you're a deer or not?

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## Bonecrusher

> I have never known a dog to "indicate" another human
> But I do not think you have understood my point - spoken from near on 50 years experience with dogs and people :-)


Question what does a Police dog do.... mate I will hit your fifty and raise you 5 ;-)

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## Sarvo

> Question what does a Police dog do.... mate I will hit your fifty and raise you 5 ;-)


You sure do not sound 60+
Police dogs are not normally used in Bush for hunting - but again you missing my point
Lets leave it at "just be careful with dog in populated hunting areas - even a Black or Yellow Lab"

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> Ryan, there's a post on here mentioning Wayne Edgerton, the Southland guy who shot another hunter in the Longwoods. I would have put Wayne into your team of 100% sure team, he went to extra lengths to promote hunter safety and identification in his region, even to the point of placing posters about identifying your target on public access-ways to hunting areas. Maybe you should try & contact this fellow and ask him some questions on how he made the mistake, when he had the same single minded viewpoint as your own.


I can guarantee that person had some internal turmoil going on due to the person he knew he was portraying himself to be, and the person he really knew he was.

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## Bonecrusher

> You sure do not sound 60+
> Police dogs are not normally used in Bush for hunting - but again you missing my point
> Lets leave it at "just be careful with dog in populated hunting areas - even a Black or Yellow Lab"


SAR, Cadaver, Drug dog .... careful is my middle name experience is the key out there doing it at least once a week minimum

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## northdude

> And maybe that's the answer right there.  Make it illegal to shoot anything but an antlered deer between mid of March to middle of may (or whatever). A bit like the tag system in the US. But only applies to the rut period here.  
> 
> It could make people more consious of what it is that they are shooting at.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


Non antlered deer will still get shot as people aren't IDing their target properly its actually illegal to shoot people anyway but that ain't working

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## GWH

> Non antlered deer will still get shot as people aren't IDing their target properly its actually illegal to shoot people anyway but that ain't working


Very true

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## huglife

> its actually illegal to shoot people anyway but that ain't working


Lol good call.

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## matto1234

> Question what does a Police dog do.... mate I will hit your fifty and raise you 5 ;-)


Ugh wrong quote... I have been tracked/indicated in the Bush by a weimaraner once

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## Tahr

> Dont get all upset yet. It may not be a case of Identifying the target, it could be an accidental discharge which is breaking a very different rule...or even inflicted upon the shooter by themselves if that is the case.....Either way, IT SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED!


You could be correct. Stuff say that the police are assisting the coroner, so that might indicate that a second or third party were not involved.

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## sometimes

> After my own personal close encounter a few roars ago,  I personally believe the blaze orange is almost the worst colour you could wear.
> 
> I will never wear it after what I saw, and I strongly advise my hunting mates against wearing it.


A huge amount of new zealand men are colour blind so orange looks brown

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## GWH

> You could be correct. Stuff say that the police are assisting the coroner, so that might indicate that a second or third party were not involved.


Ive heard to the contrary, that he was indeed shot by a member of his own hunting party

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## Woody

Its a bloody tragedy nonetheless. Personally, I have avoided hunting over Easter for 20 years now. I have known of four associates / friends killed in the roar, and another seriously injured. People are fallible. 
Ask any soldier who has fought within range of yankee field guns or bombers.

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## Pointer

> That's way off what Ryan is getting at and you know it. That's what he is advocating.


I may have misunderstood, as apparently others have too. But I'm sure he can speak for himself.

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## BRADS

> I may have misunderstood, but I'm sure he can speak for himself.


Go have a beer and a wank then have another read bro

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## PerazziSC3

I'm also never going to have a car crash because I'm a perfect drive  :ORLY: 

If you think you are perfect (will never make a mistake identifying target) I feel you have the highest chance of making a mistake as you will likely be more complacent. 

It's proved time and time again that's it's experienced hunters that shoot people, much like it's often experienced/over confident drivers that kill people etc 
 @Ryan_Songhurst nothing against you as you obviously feel strongly about the subject but your comments about being perfect sends shivers up me after reading/hearing horror stories from members of the other forum that have sworn they will never make a mistake and then have in fact shot and killed people.

Just remember it's a high chance the person or people involved are part of this community...

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> I'm also never going to have a car crash because I'm a perfect drive 
> 
> If you think you are perfect (will never make a mistake identifying target) I feel you have the highest chance of making a mistake as you will likely be more complacent. 
> 
> It's proved time and time again that's it's experienced hunters that shoot people, much like it's often experienced/over confident drivers that kill people etc 
>  @Ryan_Songhurst nothing against you as you obviously feel strongly about the subject but your comments about being perfect sends shivers up me after reading/hearing horror stories from members of the other forum that have sworn they will never make a mistake and then have in fact shot and killed people.
> 
> Just remember it's a high chance the person or people involved are part of this community...


Can you show me where I said I am perfect please? I said I'm not going to shoot anyone, nothing about being perfect? Bit of a difference between having a genuine accident in a vehicle and poking a bullet into someone.

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## gimp

> Bit of a difference between having a genuine accident in a vehicle and poking a bullet into someone.


Why do you consider them different?

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## gimp

The best way to not shoot anyone is to be like me, and never go hunting or shoot anything. Hard to shoot people by accident posting on the internet from home!

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## R93

> Why do you consider them different?


Scenario for one.

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## R93

> The best way to not shoot anyone is to be like me, and never go hunting or shoot anything. Hard to shoot people by accident posting on the internet from home!


You even let old slow bastards sneak up on you in a supermarket

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## gimp

Of course it depends on the scenario, but why is a "genuine accident" ok with a motor vehicle (kills a lot more people than firearms in NZ) but the same doesn't apply to a firearm? Either way there's been a cockup and you've potentially killed someone through negligence (depending on the scenario)

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## gimp

> You even let old slow bastards sneak up on you in a supermarket
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


enjoy your milk

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## R93

> enjoy your milk


It was sealed. I just checked

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> Why do you consider them different?


There is an absolutely failsafe process that will ensure that you never shoot a person in the bush which involves the simple procedure of identifying your target. Do that one thing, properly, and it will never happen. 
Yes the blokes who have shot people swear black and blue they saw a deer, of course they do, what do you expect them to say... "I saw something move and I thought that there was some kind of possibility it was a deer so I shot it" of course not, they admit that and it becomes the moment they can't live with themselves. 
A vehicle accident can happen for any number of reasons, sometimes because the driver was drunk, driving at excessive speed etc in which case they belong in the same basket as the shooters.

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## PerazziSC3

> Can you show me where I said I am perfect please? I said I'm not going to shoot anyone, nothing about being perfect? Bit of a difference between having a genuine accident in a vehicle and poking a bullet into someone.


Saying you are 110% sure you will never make a target identification mistake is where you said that. 100% is typically regarded as perfect, 110% is slightly better than perfect...

Also can't see the difference between having a genuine accident in a vehicle and a genuine accident with a firearm 

Accident is the key terminology

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## PerazziSC3

> There is an absolutely failsafe process that will ensure that you never shoot a person in the bush which involves the simple procedure of identifying your target. Do that one thing, properly, and it will never happen. 
> Yes the blokes who have shot people swear black and blue they saw a deer, of course they do, what do you expect them to say... "I saw something move and I thought that there was some kind of possibility it was a deer so I shot it" of course not, they admit that and it becomes the moment they can't live with themselves. 
> A vehicle accident can happen for any number of reasons, sometimes because the driver was drunk, driving at excessive speed etc in which case they belong in the same basket as the shooters.


Or the fact you swore you looked left and right then pulled out in front of a truck

Or you swore you stopped at the stop sign  and then got t-boned 

Or you swore you were driving to the conditions but then slid out on a bend 

It's all a decision,

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> Just remember it's a high chance the person or people involved are part of this community...


That would not surprise me in the slightest with the crazy mindset of all you blokes bsically admitting you don't trust yourselves or your procedures

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## PerazziSC3

> That would not surprise me in the slightest with the crazy mindset of all you blokes bsically admitting you don't trust yourselves or your procedures


It's not about trusting yourselves and procedures, I'm more than comfortable with my procedures and ability to identify a target animal 

I'm just not brash enough to say I'm never going to make a mistake, maybe if I was a keyboard  hunter I could say that

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> It's not about trusting yourselves and procedures, I'm more than comfortable with my procedures and ability to identify a target animal 
> 
> I'm just not brash enough to say I'm never going to make a mistake, maybe if I was a keyboard  hunter I could say that


So possibility you will shoot someone one day, yes/no?

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## Cordite

> @stretch get of the grass mate all you have done is explained the thought processes of a sociopath that thinks they are to clever to follow any kind of proper procedure and wrapped it up in a big old wet blanket of an excuse called "human nature"
> I sure as fuck don't go through any stupid "heat of the moment" thought process that would result in me shooting another human being and if you really believe the dribble you have said then maybe you need to go hand in your licence.


 @Ryan-Songhurst

This is an interesting comment.  Because actually sociopaths are given less to fear and often have better self-control than normal people when the heat is on.  They are thus less likely to shoot you - at least not by mistake, but therein lies their problem....

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## PerazziSC3

> So possibility you will shoot someone one day, yes/no?


Nothing is impossible so they say.

I honestly cannot say it would never happen, I could slip and trip cause an accidental discharge and shoot myself for all I know. 

Accidents happen and that's the fact, careless acts happen, people die. You cannot deny facts. 

I will leave it there as you have closed your mind off to others opinions

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## Maca49

On one of my first hunting expeditions, long before any of you bastards were born, I was with a mate the same age as me, his dad was a very keen hunter. We got on to a spiker, only separated by about 20 metres of bush. We could clearly see it head through the bush trying to reach the high branches, but we could not see his body. My mate was adamant that we could shoot until we identified it fully. Sat watching the movement for about 10mins till it decided to bolt. Great training from his dad that someone of 16-17 had the nous to identify the target completely. Must have left an impression as that was at least 50 years ago. Tally that weekend, two hinds, a stag and a different spiker. I was suitably shagged by the time I got back to the Hillman combie station wagon

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## outlander

> Ugh wrong quote... I have been tracked/indicated in the Bush by a weimaraner once


That must have been a huge 'Oh fuck' moment in your life. Did you throw stones and poke at it with a stick?

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## Moutere

> There is an absolutely failsafe process that will ensure that you never shoot a person in the bush which involves the simple procedure of identifying your target. Do that one thing, properly, and it will never happen.


That's the problem, these people are most often doing this but reach the wrong conclusion.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> Nothing is impossible so they say.
> 
> I honestly cannot say it would never happen, I could slip and trip cause an accidental discharge and shoot myself for all I know. 
> 
> Accidents happen and that's the fact, careless acts happen, people die. You cannot deny facts. 
> 
> I will leave it there as you have closed your mind off to others opinions


Like others you just danced around the question. I too could have a "genuine" accident with a firearm but I sure as hell will never line someone up and put a bullet in them. If you read the earlier post I made comparing these guys that shoot people with rapists, and then use your way of thinking, do you also come to the conclusion that since it's physically possible you could end up raping someone one day?

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> That's the problem, these people are most often doing this but reach the wrong conclusion.


No they're not. They SAY they are doing that, but they're not, or it wouldn't happen. The research is always going to be flawed because they are always going to stick to that same story.

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## Moutere

> No they're not. They SAY they are doing that, but they're not, or it wouldn't happen. The research is always going to be flawed because they are always going to stick to that same story.


There are plenty of cases where family or a member of their own party is brought down by a measured and calculated shot.
Your last line is just opinion.

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## Ryan_Songhurst

> There are plenty of cases where family or a member of their own party is brought down by a measured and calculated shot.
> Your last line is just opinion.


Yeap exactly, and they didn't identify their target did They? No they didn't, or they would have seen it was a person not a deer.

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## R93

> There are plenty of cases where family or a member of their own party is brought down by a measured and calculated shot.
> Your last line is just opinion.


They did not identify their target. End of story.

It is a scary scenario to think there are people running around the bush with firearms that see things that are not there 

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## Moutere

> Yeap exactly, and they didn't identify their target did They? No they didn't, or they would have seen it was a person not a deer.


Correct,
Show me a shooting accident or incident where one of the seven basic rules haven't been broken and I'll eat my hat.
I guess my approach is accepting in the heat of the moment it's not quite cut and dry as that.

My experience with decision making and succumbing to visual illusion is industry based.
It's easy to bring on certain visual phenomena in a flight simulator, I've had a couple of instances in the hot seat too.
Having experienced my eyes seeing one thing and my brain rearranging into something else I have no doubt it can happen with a hunter.

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## outlander

> Why do people bother meat hunting at the busiest most dangerous time of the year? misidentification shootings would be eliminated in the roar if people hunting in april were only looking for trophy stags. Fill ya freezer up spring/summer. Iv never heard of a mistaken id shooting where the victim was mistaken for a 12pt stag with great length and strong tines its 100% always just thought he was a deer


Perhaps in part, it's because NZ was know internationally as a sparsely populated, bush rich country with  deer behind every tree. A 303  to be bought at every country servo and to hunt, our god given right. Sounds plausible until about 35 years ago, when successive governments allowed immigration, foreign land sales and forests' to be sold off. All this in turn, has led to an over exuberance of 'hunters', vehicles and limited huntable land for the masses. This is my take, but I've been wrong before...

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## gimp

Firearms accidents have decreased massively over the past few decades, your hypothesis doesn't hold up very well.

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## BRADS

> It is a scary scenario to think there are people running around the bush with firearms that see things that are not there 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


I think that has sumed up the whole thread rather well mate 


Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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## northdude

I go out a bit but don't shoot many deer as I have passed up so many shots that were what appeared to be a deer and probably were but for me probably and appeared aren't 100% identifying the target so I went home empty handed which sucks a bit but at least I didn't shoot anybody

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## R93

> I think that has sumed up the whole thread rather well mate 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


I am sure all of us that venture bush have seen things at first glance we thought were animals. Shape, colour, movement, location etc.

A few seconds or minutes spent scrutinizing will usually sort it.

Seeing something within a few meters and being convinced it is an animal when it is not, is different level shit I have no experience with. I cant understand or fathom it. 
Probably happens to bigfoot witnesses

If I ever had an incident where I was 100% sure I am looking at an animal and it turned into a human I would hang up my boots. 

That is why I firmly believe miss identification stems from attitude.





Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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## BRADS

> I am sure all of us that venture bush have seen things at first glance we thought were animals. Shape, colour, movement, location etc.
> 
> A few seconds or minutes spent scrutinizing will usually sort it.
> 
> Seeing something within a few meters and being convinced it is an animal when it is not, is different level shit I have no experience with. I cant understand or fathom it. 
> Probably happens to bigfoot witnesses
> 
> If I ever had an incident where I was 100% sure I am looking at an animal and it turned into a human I would hang up my boots. 
> 
> ...


Great post 
Couldn't agree more


Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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## gimp

Just hunt spots with no deer, then you'll know that everything you see is a human. If anyone needs some suggestions for such spots I can point you in the right direction

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## matto1234

> That must have been a huge 'Oh fuck' moment in your life. Did you throw stones and poke at it with a stick?


Is that a serious question or? The bloke following the dog had a round in the spout and bolt closed so yeah 'oh fuck'

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## Pointer

I've never bought it up here as the family of the people involved are members here also, but stuff it, here goes. When I was a kid a mates dad had his head blown off by his best mate of 25 years. Both very experienced bushmen. Mate was carrying a set of hind quarters pikau style out on dusk, which matched his mousy brown/ginger hair perfectly. Shooter gave a whistle as you do to get it to stop and turn. The mate carrying the deer stopped and turned and that was that. These were seasoned sika hunters, very well respected in the area. He swore black and blue it was a deer, describing the deers coat (which matched the carried hind quarters) the behavior of the deer (stopping and turning) and the position of the front legs which he aimed above for the shoulder shot (a small tree which he drilled through and into his best mates head) 

Identify your target beyond all doubt please.The best piece of hunting advice I have been given, just like Maca49s mate, is that unless you can identify the age and sex of a deer, don't pull the trigger. Forget snap shots and running shots. 

Be safe and vigilant everyone, and don't ever think that if couldn't happen to you as complacency is a killer.

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## PerazziSC3

> Be safe and vigilant everyone, and don't ever think that if couldn't happen to you as complacency is a killer.


Summed up well and that is a very real story.

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## Cordite

So you shoot and kill or maim someone, of course not on purpose, but you did break one of the seven rules.  

And you claim what you saw it was a deer, your gun malfunctioned etc etc and you'll get let off with a rap over your fingers...

But in the courtroom and the personal jury of your own mind, you are found guilty, guilty, guilty, every night you stare at the ceiling and think about "the days before" when you could sleep.  There is no lawyer in that court room to defend you against yourself, no talk of confirmation bias... or that it's human to err.

There is no room for complacency.  We must both believe it could happen to anyone (even to Ryan Songhurst, God forbid), but we ALSO have to believe as strongly that it IS avoidable.

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## northdude

> Just hunt spots with no deer, then you'll know that everything you see is a human. If anyone needs some suggestions for such spots I can point you in the right direction


I've got a few secret spots as well I could pass on

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## bumblefoot

I had a "discussion" with an older "acquaintance" once about a shooting death. I think the shooting happened in the 70's. The guy was a very experienced hunter and was hunting from a camp with some young boys (scouts or similar I think). Anyhow; he was hunting with one of them and sent the boy back to camp. The hunter saw a deer and shot at it. If I remember rightly he winged it. Anyway; the young fella on his way back to camp heard the shot and turned around and came back to see what had been shot. The hunter was looking for the deer; saw a movement; fired and killed the boy..... :-(

I maintained that the hunter should have been tried for manslaughter for firing at movement. He did go to court but got let off because there was not meant to be anyone else in the area and it "wasn't the hunter's fault". The "acquaintance" was a friend of his and reckoned that the verdict was right. Whereas I adamantly reckoned that it was bullshit. Firing at movement for god's sake..... His continued argument was that no one else was allowed in the area. I brought up the fact that a lost tramper etc (and many other scenarios) could have wandered in etc; but I couldn't get him to change his opinion. It did get a tad heated ;-) And; the acquaintance" was a hunter..... Scary shit....

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## Micky Duck

shit sammie no matter how we cut it... the fella who made a fatal error of judgement will have to live with it for the rest of his life and the family of victim will have to bury someone long before thier due time
if you think "it cant happen to me" you are being part of the problem not the solution
if you think.....am I absofuckin certain its a LIVE,FEMALE/MALE DEER/ITS HEAD AND NECK ARE DOING PROPER HEAD N NECK THINGYS and DEFINATELY NOT a person...is firing zone safe, before you close bolt/fan back hammer/take off safety catch....well God willing you wont ever have to push your EPIRB for someone youve just shot,
did anyone notice 6 poor buggers also died on the road this weekend.

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## Pointer

That's the bit I left out   @Cordite, he topped himself not long after. Two families left without fathers.

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## Sarvo

> That's the bit I left out   @Cordite, he topped himself not long after. Two families left without fathers.


I hit the "Reply with Quote" butten 10 mins ago and still cannot put down words
You have hit the nerve - well and true

I wanted to say before - there are 2 fatilites in most of these cases/disarsters - I have often thought - it may have been easier on the one that took the unenteded bullet :-(

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## Pointer

Be safe Sarvo. Be safe everyone. RIP uncle John and Mark

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## A330driver

Quote....Imo there is a huge difference in how human factors affect aviation and hunting. Apart from maybe some visual references they should not be compared.

As you say,IMO.....let me know when you want to have that conversation,its all about decision making...explain to me where these two differ,as with many others vocations,....there is a plethora of information and studies that say otherwise.......kinda surprised you said that

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## Micky Duck

ok Im going to start another thread....there is one on other pub that gets bumped each roar.... please keep it to what we have seen/done and leave the judgements out.
the whole shit sammie brings tears to my eyes every year.

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## R93

> Quote....Imo there is a huge difference in how human factors affect aviation and hunting. Apart from maybe some visual references they should not be compared.
> 
> As you say,IMO.....let me know when you want to have that conversation,its all about decision making...explain to me where these two differ,as with many others vocations,....there is a plethora of information and studies that say otherwise.......kinda surprised you said that


I like many others aced my human factors exam Malc.

I know it is about decision making.

However it is also about how are senses are influenced and being able to recognise and cope.

You would have to agree that human factors come most into play regarding aviation because of some form of stress when it goes wrong.

There should be no stress when hunting and making stupid decisions.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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## A330driver

I would certainly agree with your point,but have you not actually answered why this is happening,those very statements are actually what is happening....or certainly contribute to this whole discussion,.....it is just “not” about identifying the target,it’s about the the “state” of the hunter,,the human factors that contribute to the demise of ones decision making abilities.......splitting hairs maybe,but the end result started with some flawed input,......stress or otherwise




> I like many others aced my human factors exam Malc.
> 
> I know it is about decision making.
> 
> However it is also about how are senses are influenced and being able to recognise and cope.
> 
> You would have to agree that human factors come most into play regarding aviation because of some form of stress when it goes wrong.
> 
> There should be no stress when hunting and making stupid decisions.
> ...

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## R93

> I would certainly agree with your point,but have you not actually answered why this is happening,those very statements are actually what is happening....or certainly contribute to this whole discussion,.....it is just not about identifying the target,its about the the state of the hunter,,the human factors that contribute to the demise of ones decision making abilities.......splitting hairs maybe,but the end result started with some flawed input,......stress or otherwise


Agree totally. But I have mentioned a few times in this thread as to what I believe leads to miss identification shootings......Attitude/mindset.







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## Micky Duck

for what its worth my hunting mates all really like the hunting n fishing tee we bought that is patch work in design....cant think of plurry name but it really stands out well as it has orange/blue/lime green/camo/green..... pink n purple work too but guys a bit funny about wearing it.
the tepari products hats from oamaru stick out like doggies danglies...smurf blue.

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## Mooseman

30 plus years ago one of my best mates was shot and killed by a hunter in his party, mistaken for a deer. They were hunting sika in summer my mate had ginger hair and while out hunting strayed from his intended area and was shot. It was a case of not identifying his target, at the court hearing the shooter swore 110% that he was looking at a deer but the judge said you were 110% wrong.
He was fined a $1000.
Another case I know of happened to a friend of my brother, hunting in the Kiamia Ranges many years ago. It had been raining and the guy shot was wearing a yellow rain coat ( no fancy gear back then) they ( three of them ) had been stalking an area heavy with deer sign the guy who was shot came out on a clearing and paused for a break, when the shooter came out on the bottom of the clearing and raised his rifle and let strip. The bullet hit the scope on his rifle and sent bits of bullet and scope through various parts of his upper body. Bleeding badly his brother managed to patch him up the best he could and got help and he survived. The guy shooting was convinced he was a deer. ( the mind had been made up the next thing he saw was going to be a deer due to the amount of sign about.)
It's hard to believe anyone could make that mistake especially when the one shot was wearing a yellow rain coat, but there you have it. It shouldn't happen if the safety rules are observed but it does happen. These two cases illustrate that we must be careful all the time, be safe this roar.

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## muka88

I  stay clear of the Kaimai's during the roar to many people in there, also a lot of people that only hunt once a year out for a easy stag, i think they get impatient bashing through the thick bush and end up not identifying the target properly. there must be some way to use GPS or some kind of tech to let guys know that there is another hunter in close proximity, say 200m, may cost a few bucks but its better than shooting each other, make it compulsory on doc land along with a emergency locator beacon,  just an idea

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## Mooseman

Good idea muka88 but it should be made cheaper so everyone has one, it would certainly alert you to the presence of another hunter before you see them. They did make vests that had strips on them that would let out a signal within a certain distance, the rifle had the transmitter attached. Once again good concept but every one would need to be set up for it to work.

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## Micky Duck

the issue with electric gadgets muka88 and there are some out there...is you could then shoot someone without one because you KNOW they arent a person cause they arent setting off your beeper etc etc
compulsory doesnt work for poacher or indeed even a tramper/bird watcher/pig hunter.

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## stretch

Was just having this discussion regarding electronic solutions. http://iris.huntersafetylab.com/iris/

The problem is cost, uptake and false negatives. The cost limits uptake, which makes it pointless if you're the only one using it, and it requires the other person to be wearing one too. Shooters could be lulled into a false sense of security, where the widget hasn't detected a human, so it could work against you and reinforce the belief that it is an animal.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Mooseman

Best to stick with the safety rules

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## muka88

I do see your point micky ,perhaps if it was as easy as downloading a free app  a good level of participation could be achieved, i don't think we can ever make hunting fool proof, basic firearms safety and education is still the best way forward.

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## northdude

> Best to stick with the safety rules


Which is the whole problem relying on electronic shit is just another excuse not to identify your target 100% before you shoot at it might sound a bit gay or out there but how about doing some kind of blessing or prayer type of thing to whoever or what ever you believe in to take your focus off the shooting and make yourself aware of what your about to be doing may sound stupid but that's what I do I just take a quiet moment and ask that they allow me to hunt on the land and to protect me and the people in my hunting party and just run through what we intend to do this possibly might work for some people as you refocus on what your about to do and start with a calm clear mind

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## FatLabrador

Another example is when you see objects in the clouds
Our brains lie to us all the time add low light, bad eyesight and exitment and well it gets a heap worse.

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## XBoltstalker

In my opinion people that ‘100% seen/thought it was a deer’ instilled in there mind that the next sound/movement/sight was going to be a deer, leading them to have a gun ready to pull the trigger at the first opportunity. 

Which is a scary thought and makes you think twice about going hunting as you want to come home to your family. Also makes getting time to go hunting hard as your family are scared you wont come back. Shouldnt be this way.

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## Woody

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f1G6Nx5VDw

Take a look at this. I remember a course I attended decades ago which featured this picture. Different people saw it differently and we learned to look for more than a single interpretation of what we first thought we saw or assumed; including the way we perceived people and events. I am always mindful of this when hunting and in everyday life.

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## Cordite

> That's the bit I left out   @Cordite, he topped himself not long after. Two families left without fathers.


 @Pointer

Sure he is not the only one who has ended up doing that.  We can talk about it, but who has the foggiest how it really feels?  To be put beyond the reach of your friends and family and you then kill yourself too.

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## Cordite

> Agree totally. But I have mentioned a few times in this thread as to what I believe leads to miss identification shootings......Attitude/mindset.   Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


A bit like, set out 20 mins earlier than you need to, and you'll be driving a lot safer.  Getting into and staying with the right mind set.

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## oraki

While I admire you're conviction to 110% positive id, I believe the human brain can see things that aren't there, or viceversa. Never been in the situation so can't really comment. 

Just wondering if that pivot span was identified 100% when it got drilled :Psmiley:

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## A330driver

1. Treat every  rearm as loaded
2. Always point  rearms in a safe direction
3. Load a  rearm only when ready to  re
4. Identify your target beyond all doubt
5. Check your  ring zone
6. Store  rearms and ammunition safely
7. Avoid alcohol or drugs when handling  rearms


8.Attitude and mindset



I dont have an issue with the term,..,Attitude/mindset,the term
by R93,encompasses many issues without getting too technical and in-depth as to how we perceive,and analyze information,based on a present situation.Ones background wil play a huge part in ones decision making.

There are many here loaded with hunting and shooting backgrounds,some not so.

This discussion is at least trying to address/discuss  a problem,and open a few eyes and minds,about...Attitudes and mindsets when hunting,....it can only be good

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## Carlsen Highway

> Although 64% of firearms incidents [not necessarily fatalities] while hunting large game ARE due to misidentification, perhaps we should wait a bit before analysing it. Nothing has come out about this fatality to suggest it's a case of target misidentification. It may have been self-inflicted during a trip or a fall. 
> 
> 
> 
> If you ARE indeed referring to target misidentification, records have been kept since 1979, and 26 of the 39 years since then have had a fatality attributed to target misidentification. So there have been 13 years where there were none.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a large difference that you are willfully ignoring in order to make your point, between target mis-identification and target non-identification.

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## Carlsen Highway

For all we know it was one of those AR15's, which are known to kill groups of people. So it might not be his fault anyway, it might be solely because of a semi-automatic high-powered rifle acting on its' own.

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## stevodog

I think the confirmation bias thing is being over reported. It is a solid "excuse" with a theoretical basis.
I think that recklessness plays more part in this. Just take a look at the driving behaviour on our roads. This alone is evidence that some people will not keep basic safety rules because they are f..k..ts.

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## timattalon

> 1. Treat every  firearm as loaded
> 2. Always point  firearms in a safe direction
> 3. Load a  firearm only when ready to  re
> 4. Identify your target beyond all doubt
> 5. Check your  firing zone
> 6. Store  firearms and ammunition safely
> 7. Avoid alcohol or drugs when handling  firearms
> 
> 
> ...


Does your spell check have something against the letters F I ?

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## A330driver

Apologies mate... I tried to change it later and couldn’t edit it..... then we started down.... didn’t have time

Thanks for the reminder and the fix... hopefully I can return the favour cheers





> Does your spell check have something against the letters F I ?

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## R93

> 1. Treat every  rearm as loaded
> 2. Always point  rearms in a safe direction
> 3. Load a  rearm only when ready to  re
> 4. Identify your target beyond all doubt
> 5. Check your  ring zone
> 6. Store  rearms and ammunition safely
> 7. Avoid alcohol or drugs when handling  rearms
> 
> 
> ...


Regarding attitude I spose one of the first things is, when a person even fires a shot at a misidentifed target they are wanting to shoot or satisfied with anything. They have no minimum standards and maybe have their own induced stress and mindset of having to be successful.

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## northdude

As I've always said there's hunters and then there's shooters

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## outlander

> Is that a serious question or? The bloke following the dog had a round in the spout and bolt closed so yeah 'oh fuck'


A bit of both, a shot at humour and the seriousness of the situation acknowledged. Nothing personal at all.

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## outlander

> I  stay clear of the Kaimai's during the roar to many people in there, also a lot of people that only hunt once a year out for a easy stag, i think they get impatient bashing through the thick bush and end up not identifying the target properly. there must be some way to use GPS or some kind of tech to let guys know that there is another hunter in close proximity, say 200m, may cost a few bucks but its better than shooting each other, make it compulsory on doc land along with a emergency locator beacon,  just an idea


That's my understanding. Too many people in the bush and not enough bush.

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## Gibo

> That's my understanding. Too many people in the bush and not enough bush.


Plenty of bush, just not a lot of easy bush so they get concentrated near road ends and walking tracks. Get 2-3 hours in off the tracks and you'll be a lot safer.

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## Milan501

Please excuse my ignorance here but I am keen to get out and bag my first stag was keen to get into the Kaimai's but after this incident, I am very hesitant. i wear orange blaze hat and other gear to make myself visible to other hunters as well and with @Pointers advise i move away from the tracks and will be hunting away from the beaten tracks 

What the safest way to get out on to DOC land and bag a Deer? 

I have a young family and I cannot take the risk of them ending up without me. or do I need to read between the lines here and stay out of the bush during the Roar, or hunt book a hunt on private land?

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## Timmay

> Please excuse my ignorance here but I am keen to get out and bag my first stag was keen to get into the Kaimai's but after this incident, I am very hesitant. i wear orange blaze hat and other gear to make myself visible to other hunters as well and with @Pointers advise i move away from the tracks and will be hunting away from the beaten tracks 
> 
> What the safest way to get out on to DOC land and bag a Deer? 
> 
> I have a young family and I cannot take the risk of them ending up without me. or do I need to read between the lines here and stay out of the bush during the Roar, or hunt book a hunt on private land?


Be as responsible as you can whilst hunting, you can't control the actions of others.

You take more of a risk driving on the road to your hunt than you actually do hunting.

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## northdude

I don't think there is a real answer to that one its like asking how not to get killed while driving on the road you can do everything right but there's always some fukwit that's to lazy or thinks they are more clever than everyone else

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## GWH

> Be as responsible as you can whilst hunting, you can't control the actions of others.
> 
> You take more of a risk driving on the road to your hunt than you actually do hunting.


I'd also loose the orange blaze mate

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## Milan501

> I'd also loose the orange blaze mate


 @GWH , why lose the orange blaze ?

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## GWH

> @GWH , why lose the orange blaze ?


It's quite commonly accepted that it actually makes you a target, in low light under bush canopy and when it's obstructed behind scrub etc it looks very similar to deer colour. 

I've witnessed this myself in a roar situation. Scared the crap out of me. 

Some of the more recent miss-ID shootings have involved the victim wearing blaze orange. 

I will never wear it! And many others share the same opinion.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

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## outlander

> Plenty of bush, just not a lot of easy bush so they get concentrated near road ends and walking tracks. Get 2-3 hours in off the tracks and you'll be a lot safer.


Aaah...thanks for explaining that Gibo. I've only ever hunted privately owned farms, hence my limited local knowledge.

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## Gibo

> Aaah...thanks for explaining that Gibo. I've only ever hunted privately owned farms, hence my limited local knowledge.


Its reasonably steep on the Waikato side but on the Tauranga side the bush goes for miles and miles.

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## Milan501

> It's quite commonly accepted that it actually makes you a target, in low light under bush canopy and when it's obstructed behind scrub etc it looks very similar to deer colour. 
> 
> I've witnessed this myself in a roar situation. Scared the crap out of me. 
> 
> Some of the more recent miss-ID shootings have involved the victim wearing blaze orange. 
> 
> I will never wear it! And many others share the same opinion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


Noted thanks , in that case what is the best to wear to make yourself visible to other hunters but not deer ??

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## Gibo

> Noted thanks , in that case what is the best to wear to make yourself visible to other hunters but not deer ??


To be honest worrying if a deer will 'see' you particular in a bush situation is the least to worry about, they will sooner smell and hear you.

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## BRADS

I'm going full left field on this and throwing it out there.
Why not ban Easter hunting?
Then old Johnny that gets his old 270 out once a year only at Easter gives it some crc and packs 48 lion browns into a pack and heads into the hills ain't in there.
He's the type of guy that won't go in during the week and won't go in normal weekend.
Remove old Johnny and she's safer for us All??
The one common thing it seems to me is someone gets shot ever Easter.. 
As hunters I think we can agree on the fact we are all over it.


Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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## Dead is better

I fear this is not a bad idea given the history of 'accidents' here in NZ

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## Spudattack

> I'm going full left field on this and throwing it out there.
> Why not ban Easter hunting?
> Then old Johnny that gets his old 270 out once a year only at Easter gives it some crc and packs 48 lion browns into a pack and heads into the hills ain't in there.
> He's the type of guy that won't go in during the week and won't go in normal weekend.
> Remove old Johnny and she's safer for us All??
> The one common thing it seems to me is someone gets shot ever Easter.. 
> As hunters I think we can agree on the fact we are all over it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Hmmmm....banning .270s would probably have a similar effect? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## bumblefoot

I remember sitting on a bike on a ridge waiting for 3 friends to come back from right down the end of the valley looking for deer. What amazed me was how clearly I could see the one wearing the bright fluro yellow vest as they walked across the clearing. The other 2 in camo were so much harder to see (obviously). The fluro yellow stood out like dog's "whats-its".... from what was probably about 1km away; it looked like a spotlight was on her it was so bright from that distance, . It was only a $5 Chinese shop vest; but it really got me thinking that it would be a cheap investment to help with safety.

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## northdude

> I'm going full left field on this and throwing it out there.
> Why not ban Easter hunting?
> Then old Johnny that gets his old 270 out once a year only at Easter gives it some crc and packs 48 lion browns into a pack and heads into the hills ain't in there.
> He's the type of guy that won't go in during the week and won't go in normal weekend.
> Remove old Johnny and she's safer for us All??
> The one common thing it seems to me is someone gets shot ever Easter.. 
> As hunters I think we can agree on the fact we are all over it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Not trying to pick a fight but yea that's all good and well if your lucky enough to have your own bit of private land to shoot on and can control who's there at given times some of us aren't so lucky and can only go when time and work permits may as well go the full hog and ban shooting all together then no one will ever get shot again possibly a better idea might be doing a safety course when applying for a permit

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## ebf

I don't think it is a particular type of hunter that does this - seems to be both once-a-year warriors as well as guys considered very experienced. If anything, I would say it is more likely to happen to experienced guys going on the incidents reported over the last couple of years.

Similar to motorcycle accidents. You get a lot of them in newbie riders, then it tapers off, and then a very high percentage in older riders who come back to riding in middle age.

I also don't think anyone specifically sets out with the intention of shooting a human being. Not saying this has not happened before, but pretty unlikely in the vast majority of these cases.

If you've been around guys with guns long enough, you WILL end up knowing someone who takes snap shots, who is suspect when it comes to safe handling or positively identifying targets.... And believing it will never happen to YOU is part of the problem - I think if you speak to any one of the guys who ended up shooting someone they will tell you they fell into that category before it happened

Every year we have the same debate, and yet nothing seems to change...  :Sad:

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## Steve123

Easiest way is to avoid the DOC bush during the roar.

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## chewy69a

> And maybe that's the answer right there.  Make it illegal to shoot anything but an antlered deer between mid of March to middle of may (or whatever).


I suggested this a couple years ago on here but got shot down (excuse the pun)

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....41/#post456336

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## Dead is better

Curious, has there been a single incident involving the Blue hi-vis yet? 

p.s ive experienced that orange 4pm sun on actual deer looking precisely like orange hivis colour. Not a nice sight. I dunno about the yellow ones though

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## gimp

Yellow is not good for hi-viz, can't even see it in the bush most of the time, looks like vegetation with the sun on it.

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## Nick-D

> Curious, has there been a single incident involving the Blue hi-vis yet? 
> 
> p.s ive experienced that orange 4pm sun on actual deer looking precisely like orange hivis colour. Not a nice sight. I dunno about the yellow ones though


Yeah I thought it was bullshit when I first heard that but then when I saw it, man it's crazy how similar it looks.somthing to do with the light coming through the bush makes it super bright orange

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## Mathias

:Wtfsmilie:  I can't see why you would wear bloody blaze orange in the bush, when it is been so obviously pointed out that at certain lights it resembles the colour of a fuckn deer. Orange works well out in the tussock when it's exposed to unfiltered light, but not in the bush. Give me blue any day if you want to be observed, as its a totally un-natural colour in the bush.

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## BRADS

> Not trying to pick a fight but yea that's all good and well if your lucky enough to have your own bit of private land to shoot on and can control who's there at given times some of us aren't so lucky and can only go when time and work permits may as well go the full hog and ban shooting all together then no one will ever get shot again possibly a better idea might be doing a safety course when applying for a permit


That's cool as mate 
It's just my opinon and a idea I had  
I can also only hunt when time and work permits 
I just choice to not hunt at Easter and was throwing out there as idea to see what people thought 
Talk of banning hunting all together is just a dick move.
All for Hunter education to make it safer for all of us. I'd certainly like to think with all the young guys I've taken out over the last few years I've done a fair bit of Hunter education with first timers.

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## bumblefoot

> Yellow is not good for hi-viz, can't even see it in the bush most of the time, looks like vegetation with the sun on it.


That's interesting and good to know. It stands to reason. It did work well on an overcast day in the open; but I hadn't thought about sunlight making it look like foliage etc

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## tikka

I wear orange blaze in the roar and hunting with mates or in high hunting pressure spots where I may run into other hunters. I would rather been seen than not. I feel a lot better I can see my mates and the dog easier.

It’s guys with the wrong mindset during the roar, they have already talked themselves into it, colour doesn’t matter, they in the thinking of

 “ its the roar, I must get a stag, I can hear a stag, it must be a stag, I’m going to shoot a stag, I can here a stag coming, then there’s some movement?, next identified the movement but not the stag, now it’s point of no return the trigger is pulled!!!” Ohh shit!

Instead of of thinking the other way around “it’s a person, its a person I can hear, it’s a person coming until you can identifying a stag”

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## northdude

Its a person is what I'm thinking when in the bush I will even drop the rifle down and look without using the scope up to 3 or 4 times

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## Allizdog

Just don't get into the mindset that because you are in the middle of nowhere that there can't be another hunter around.

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## Allizdog

> Aaah...thanks for explaining that Gibo. I've only ever hunted privately owned farms, hence my limited local knowledge.


Just don't get in the mindset that because you are in the middle of nowhere there can't be hunter/hunters around.

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## Allizdog

> Plenty of bush, just not a lot of easy bush so they get concentrated near road ends and walking tracks. Get 2-3 hours in off the tracks and you'll be a lot safer.


Agree with Gibo's advice. Just don't get into the mindset that because you're in the middle of nowhere there can't be other hunter/hunters close by.

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## Allizdog

Damn. Can't delete first one

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## XBoltstalker

Drill that point into them Allizdog haha

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## Friwi

One thing funny, is that this Easter weekend was really not busy at all where I am hunting usually. And talking to another party of 3 who went to Kaimanawas for sika hunting, they have never seen the place so deserted.
It does not stop accidents from happening obviously but maybe the message that there ll be too many fuckwits over this Easter weekend has prevented many more to be put at risk.
I have personally chosen to hunt with a bow during the roar, I have significantly less chances of shooting someone else at least.

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## Micky Duck

Ive seen the blaze orange deer thing..and are aware of it... loads of guys are red/green color blind so cant see it anyway....lots of different colors are good choice. hunting with only guys you can trust is good choice,trying to avoid public land over easter if you can is good choice,
oh and thought about it today while at work...this isnt a new thing..Philip Holden wrote of 2 incidents I can think of where he put scope on someone....first is in pack n rifle so its always been an issue.
take care out there.

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## Maxx

> One thing funny, is that this Easter weekend was really not busy at all where I am hunting usually. And talking to another party of 3 who went to Kaimanawas for sika hunting, they have never seen the place so deserted.
> It does not stop accidents from happening obviously but maybe the message that there ll be too many fuckwits over this Easter weekend has prevented many more to be put at risk.
> I have personally chosen to hunt with a bow during the roar, I have significantly less chances of shooting someone else at least.


Was heaps of groups set up in various places down the Desert Rd!

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## northdude

this place where this latest guy got shot is where we are heading for a look in a couple of weeks for a few days then heading to another place also I just wear camo as not many people shoot at plants  :Thumbsup:

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## A330driver

Quote...I just wear camo as not many people shoot at plants .....

Aaaaarh......not true......

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## veitnamcam

> Plenty of bush, just not a lot of easy bush so they get concentrated near road ends and walking tracks. Get 2-3 hours in off the tracks and you'll be a lot safer.


That is the false sense of safety/nobody else is here that contributes IMHO to these shootings/nobody else would walk in here it must be a deer....Id feel safer hunting 100m off of a state highway down here cos most just drive past, walk 3 hours and meet everybody else that thought they had to walk 3 hours.
As much as I love bush hunting roaring stags I think my days of it in the top of the south are over, just too many hunters and too many of them are complete and utter fuck wits! only got to look at all the doc signs shot up to see what sort of a shooting culture we are developing....it didn't use to be like this here....maybe up north but not here.

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## Gibo

I said safer not safe.

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## outlander

> Just don't get in the mindset that because you are in the middle of nowhere there can't be hunter/hunters around.


Try Northern Africa for 'middle of nowhere'. Might bring things into perspective for ya.

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## veitnamcam

> I said safer not safe.


Still think here at least safer would be 100m from state hiway than 3 hours walk in.

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## XBoltstalker

All we need is a picture of a person that looks like a deer. Then we will know what to look out for  :Grin:

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## outlander

> That is the false sense of safety/nobody else is here that contributes IMHO to these shootings/nobody else would walk in here it must be a deer....Id feel safer hunting 100m off of a state highway down here cos most just drive past, walk 3 hours and meet everybody else that thought they had to walk 3 hours.
> As much as I love bush hunting roaring stags I think my days of it in the top of the south are over, just too many hunters and too many of them are complete and utter fuck wits! only got to look at all the doc signs shot up to see what sort of a shooting culture we are developing....it didn't use to be like this here....maybe up north but not here.


I rest my case. NZ is over done in many things.

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## 300winmag

RIP - Gordon Leech

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## R93

> RIP - Gordon Leech


Very sobering. Rip Gordon.

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## BRADS

Opening weekend of the roar.....
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=12025847

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## northdude

Very sad

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## Rushy

Tragic as I have said previously.  Such a waste.  So unnecessary and avoidable.

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## Jimmy

It's an unfortunate fact that some people are more predisposed to filling in the blanks in a shape in a creative way. 
Therefore what is a deer to one person is not a deer to another.  There's been a heap of research into it.  Like seeing shapes in the clouds. 

Ever gone spearing flounder at night?  Many people spear the sand thinking it's a flounder 10 times before seeing a flounder.  They imagine the shape. 

The sooner everyone thinks "I could shoot someone when hunting" instead of "I don't get how people mistake s deer for a human" the sooner the hunting fatalities will drop. 

In hunter safety I firmly believe that everyone should be told that it is highly likely that you WILL mistake a person for a deer, and that it's hard to distinguish the difference.  This will change attitude away from the above.

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## BruceY

We should all just remember that when we are pointing the finger there are three more pointing back at us...

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## Boar Freak

> Try Northern Africa for 'middle of nowhere'. Might bring things into perspective for ya.


South east of El Gouera never used to see anyone walking the hills there  :Grin:

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## outlander

> South east of El Gouera never used to see anyone walking the hills there


They introduced Cameltoe Deer there a few years ago. You need to book a spot two years in advance now.

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## BeeMan

I have been hunting around 50 yrs , recreationally and commercially. I bet like many other hunters on this forum also, have seen and adapted to the nowday stalking and hunting. Gone are the days of deer hair covered swanis undies or shorts short enough so you could lift your leg higher than ur hip without castrating oneself, once hairy legs a mat of hookgrass, norsewear socks thick with biddy bidds, lace up gummys with horse shoe plates that sometimes left tell tale marks on dry rocks like a deer hoof print, oh.. and the swarm of blowflys that followed awaiting a kill, or if you stopped long enough a family gathering on your swani. "We" know from experience white in the bush sticks out like a sore thumb, or a sika bum, bright colours rather than flat to high light yourself for human eyes, it could bee that second look of disbelief that saves some ones life. Bright Blaze orange top, and if you have white hair a bright orange hat, made compulsory hunting attire. Might save a few deer as well.

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## TJM

Tragic stuff, one of the reasons I don,t go hunting on Easter. Trouble is from now on you have it in the back of your mind some one may have a scope on you!

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## Chop3r

I wonder if the guy is one of the Leech family from Paeroa. They run a large quarry there

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## GWH

> I have been hunting around 50 yrs , recreationally and commercially. I bet like many other hunters on this forum also, have seen and adapted to the nowday stalking and hunting. Gone are the days of deer hair covered swanis undies or shorts short enough so you could lift your leg higher than ur hip without castrating oneself, once hairy legs a mat of hookgrass, norsewear socks thick with biddy bidds, lace up gummys with horse shoe plates that sometimes left tell tale marks on dry rocks like a deer hoof print, oh.. and the swarm of blowflys that followed awaiting a kill, or if you stopped long enough a family gathering on your swani. "We" know from experience white in the bush sticks out like a sore thumb, or a sika bum, bright colours rather than flat to high light yourself for human eyes, it could bee that second look of disbelief that saves some ones life. Bright Blaze orange top, and if you have white hair a bright orange hat, made compulsory hunting attire. Might save a few deer as well.


Neat post, but the day that wearing blaze orange is made mandatory is the day i stop hunting, as i have said many many times before, IMO it is very dangerous.

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## huglife

I wish we could hear the shooters story and circumstance more promptly to take some learnings from it.. What was the guy wearing, what happened etc. But then again they are probably going to say what ever keeps them out of jail anyway. 
If the guy was wearing blaze orange I'm going to be selling a brand new blaze orange huntech gillie thats for sure. Are you guys against blaze orange reckoning its worse to wear than a normal camo?

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## northdude

> I wish we could hear the shooters story and circumstance more promptly to take some learnings from it.. What was the guy wearing, what happened etc. But then again they are probably going to say what ever keeps them out of jail anyway. 
> If the guy was wearing blaze orange I'm going to be selling a brand new blaze orange huntech gillie thats for sure. Are you guys against blaze orange reckoning its worse to wear than a normal camo?


as long as we have people wandering around not iding their targets properly it doesn't matter what you wear after thinking about it a bit it appears to me that complaicency plays a big part in these situations the attitude that ive been doing this all my life so I know what im doing mindset just my opinion tho

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## R93

I ran into a gimp today poaching one of my spots.

He lurched off rather quickly whimpering and squeaking when he heard a stag roaring. 


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## Wildman

> I ran into a gimp today poaching one of my spots.
> 
> He lurched off rather quickly whimpering and squeaking when he heard a stag roaring. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


Hope he shoots one, hasn't had the best of luck so far this roar

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## R93

> Hope he shoots one, hasn't had the best of luck so far this roar
> 
> Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk


He headed off on one roaring well. He should get a look.
Just hope he leave the couple I have got lined up for my boy alone. 

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## outlander

> almost want to go back to army way all camed up with face paint and ghillie suit then you only look like a bush.


I'd be wary...some bugger may cut a blaze on you to mark a trail.

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## Gibo

> don't worry I would wake up before they finished.


Wood you though?  :Psmiley:

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## Rusky

Condolences to the family. It sucks and makes me sick to my stomach with the thought of all those affected. Wish there was a way to stop this happening but we've been saying this for 30+ years now so I don't see it changing anytime soon.

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## Tahr

> Hope he shoots one, hasn't had the best of luck so far this roar
> 
> Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk


I think that he's had great luck (from what I've seen). Hunting with friends in paradise. Seeing a mixed bag of animals. Pitting vehicle and self against the elements. Thats what its all about.

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## tikka

> Condolences to the family. It sucks and makes me sick to my stomach with the thought of all those affected. Wish there was a way to stop this happening but we've been saying this for 30+ years now so I don't see it changing anytime soon.


There is but it will be at a cost to us in our freedom and with money, a nationwide public land ballot system for the roar. 

Maybe to go a little safer one hunter per block so some dumb ass doesnt shoot his mates?

Im not keen on this because where will it stop? and its the golden month I normally have 3 to 5 weeks off for the roar every year, also Ive got a better chance of getting shot than most spending that much time in DOC land hunting 90% inside the bush and 10% in the tops.

Is common sense to IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET too much to ask for hunting this time of the year or any time of the year?

Thats my rant over and out.

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## Rusky

I hear you Tikka. In logic it sounds simple but it happens almost every year. It's a risk you have to be willing to take as a hunter. Still far safer then driving our roads.

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## Sideshow

Identify your target yes
BUT DONT FOR GET YOUR FIRING ZONE!
That's how I got a load of shot to the body!
School mate so did not report it at the time. Would be done no quibble today!

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## Wildman

> I think that he's had great luck (from what I've seen). Hunting with friends in paradise. Seeing a mixed bag of animals. Pitting vehicle and self against the elements. Thats what its all about.


Just don't mention the panel damage... 

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## Boaraxa

Defiantly some idiots out there , me & my mate were camped up across a river a group of 5 turned up fluro orange from head to toe we told them where we where hunting for the couple of days which was fine they said were they wanted to go , sorted..  however latter that day I,d been sitting on my ass out of the raging wind watching a slip for 5 hours waiting for a stag to walk back out I could hear the stag roaring getting closer & closer to the slip his hinds poped out waiting waiting then the deer scarpered 10 minutes latter I could plainly hear someone roaring probably only a 100 meters off the slip...with the wind up his ass wtf ! then the next morning we headed down stream to locate a stag that was roaring in the night only 300 odd meters from camp we get down there next minute one of the oompa loompa,s appears from the other side  waving his arms & giving hand gestures like charades the clearest one we got was the rifle action pointed in our direction to say they would be shooting in our direction , some people & these guys had a private hut to stay in & around 5000 hectares of private property to hunt yet the halfwits are creeping around our camp  :Pissed Off:

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## Sideshow

Year @Boaraxa it's like your out at sea fishing away and next thing dickhead zooms up and around your boat full tilt :Wtfsmilie:  and you have your dive flag out :O O: 
Some people have no consideration for others it's all me mememememe :Yuush:  bloody sad really.

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## Paddy79

ahhhh the joys of hunting public land during roar your sure to see idiots with guns about doing idiotic things

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## Boaraxa

Bloody shocking these guys new exactly were our camp was on one occasion they would have walked passed it to get to were the stag was that I was waiting on , almost have a good mind to ring the station owner as I no they are very safety conscience .

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## Sideshow

@berg243 your idea is sound untill they do as happened to @Boaraxa I found it's best to have a talk found out what each ones plan is and then stick to what each is saying even if the hunting situation changes and you our out of luck. Not sticking to the plan is just asking for trouble.
You still need to remember that there could well be someone else there as well.

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## matto1234

> Bloody shocking these guys new exactly were our camp was on one occasion they would have walked passed it to get to were the stag was that I was waiting on , almost have a good mind to ring the station owner as I no they are very safety conscience .


I would give them a call, bloody rude and dangerous for them to keep hunting in your direction

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## jakewire

I also would call him, If it appears he likes the other fellow better than you and your hunting in  that area  is taken away...
So what.
At least you won't get shot.

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## A330driver

Quote...A man has been charged with Careless Use of a Firearm Causing Death in relation to a hunting incident last week.

The 37-year-old man was arrested last week after a man died in Kaimai Range 
on Monday, April 2.

He will appear in Hamilton District Court tomorrow.

Gordon Douglas Leech, 57, died from a single gunshot wound to the chest during the opening weekend of the "roar".



This will be interesting,...sentencing guidelines for this????

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## Gibo

Opening weekend of the roar? No it was Easter. RIP Gordon

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## Bonecrusher

Arms Act 1983 No 44 (as at 01 March 2017), Public Act 53 Careless use of firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon â New Zealand Legislation

Sentencing parameters

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## timattalon

Can anyone translate into English the last one....._"It shall be no defence to the crime of manslaughter that the guilty act or omission proved against the person charged is an act or omission constituting an offence against this section."_

Does this mean that if you are charged with manslaughter, that the punishments outlined above are not applicable?

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## Rushy

> Can anyone translate into English the last one....._"It shall be no defence to the crime of manslaughter that the guilty act or omission proved against the person charged is an act or omission constituting an offence against this section."_
> 
> Does this mean that if you are charged with manslaughter, that the punishments outlined above are not applicable?


Dunno!  I thought I understood English until I read that.

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## Sideshow

Where did thank quote come from "opening weekend of the roar"? Really wish they would do just a little home work before sending this rubbish to print.

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## Marty Henry

> Can anyone translate into English the last one....._"It shall be no defence to the crime of manslaughter that the guilty act or omission proved against the person charged is an act or omission constituting an offence against this section."_
> 
> Does this mean that if you are charged with manslaughter, that the punishments outlined above are not applicable?


I think its
"It is no defence to the crime of manslaughter if the actions leading to the incident and proved against the person are the same as those listed in this section of the act."
Which appears to make no sense at all.

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## stretch

It means if you get done for "careless use of a firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon", you don't get out of getting done for manslaughter, if the careless use caused a death. You can be charged twice, under two separate offences, for a single event.

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## timattalon

> It means if you get done for "careless use of a firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon", you don't get out of getting done for manslaughter, if the careless use caused a death. You can be charged twice, under two separate offences, for a single event.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


Thank you. That makes sense. Why cant they write this shit so people can understand it ???????

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## Gibo

> Thank you. That makes sense. Why cant they write this shit so people can understand it ???????


So odd sausages like @Sidney can  :Grin:

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## Sidney

:Grin: 

like the man said, charged with two one being an alternative, but usually convicted of one as determined by the court....  same with murder/manslaughter as  the default catch all...

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## chainsaw

"& these guys had a private hut to stay in & around 5000 hectares of private property to hunt yet the halfwits are creeping around our camp "

Fuktards for sure & dangerous ones at that. Rifle pointed at you ??!! wtf.
I'm guessing from your description you might have been in the Whitestone?

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## rewa

Remember the "school-teacher-death" ? that guy had just fallen asleep in his tent, when his mates woke him,telling him there were deer on the track. A few minutes later, they spot-lighted the school-teacher,and given in evidence, that someone said: "there's one ", and we all know the outcome. But, the person who pushed the most, for manslaughter and prison,through the Media, was the same guy who later shot a young fella by accident,down Wellington-way. That boy was wearing bright orange. He got home-Detention, from memory, and tried to pervert the course of justice by lying and denying he'd been there.He recently tried getting his licence back ! But the point is ; He said ALL the same stuff originally, that many are saying here, to sway those in power: It wasnt an accident, he didnt bother to identify target, I've been hunting for blah-years,member of nzda, I would know etc. etc And it worked; the young guy got 4 yrs..Then,common-sense-guy,does the same,in broad-daylight a few yrs later. We can get it wrong,He got it wrong, and he was the guy shouting the most,that there was NO excuse..just a thought...

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## stevodog

I think it makes a difference whether you are shooting in areas where shooting is permitted.

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## rewa

I believe it could happen to anyone,given the cases I have read here and overseas. A good example is ex-branch-President of NZDA, . Like Ryan above, he screamed for blood when the school-teacher was tragically-shot by a spot-lighter in Turangi. His calls for manslaughter, led to a gaol-sentence...fast-forward a couple of years later, where he himself, in broad-daylight, shot a guy through the head. The young guy was wearing a hi-vis beany. I wonder how many of the shooters are colour-blind, as no coroners reports, appear to address or mention this. As another member said, its tragic, but we do have to get a greater understanding about it, because its obviously not going away..

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## Paddy79

colour blind has nothing to do with defining the difference between human and deer and yes I am colour blind but still know what a deer looks like.

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## rewa

Remember that NZDA-branch-President, who screamed for blood when a woman was tragically shot, while cleaning her teeth.? Turangi campsite ? A year or two later. he shot a 29yr old through the head, and fled the scene...It can POTENTIALLY happen !...and all your comments are pretty-much the same as his, at the time . We DO need to understand it more..Dave

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## A330driver

Well mate,Im not sure thats the case,I tend to agree with rewa here,.......do you have any evidence or data etc that would disprove that......you being colour blind doesnt nessacerily prove anything......across the board it may be a huge issue





> colour blind has nothing to do with defining the difference between human and deer and yes I am colour blind but still know what a deer looks like.

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## rewa

Christopher Dummer.......

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## A330driver

Shooter breaks vow to dead mans mum.........please read it

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## Paddy79

colour has nothing to do with shape recognition. as for my colour deficiency I took multiple test to determine my colour deficiency and was the only reason I was turned down specific job oportunities  but I can still tell the difference between a deer and a person because I choose look and examine  before I shoot and not be trigger.

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## A330driver

It’s nothing personal,it’s interesting to hear something about this.......my question would be the severity of ones colour blindness,I think most here would have no idea ....I/we can be educated in this area,and whether t contributes to this issue





> colour has nothing to do with shape recognition. as for my colour deficiency I took multiple test to determine my colour deficiency and was the only reason I was turned down specific job oportunities  but I can still tell the difference between a deer and a person because I choose look and examine  before I shoot and not be trigger.

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## R93

I wonder if all the deer I/we bumped in the bush while on patrol as a soldiers were actually humans? 

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## A330driver

Lol

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## rewa

Light blue

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## Paddy79

I struggle between blue and green and red and green colours
blaze orange when faded will look like a red deer in certain times of the year weather you have colour problems or not.  
trouble is some people shoot before they can determine what it is they actually see. they see a movement see something and fire. game over regardless

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## A330driver

Interesting for sure,......just reading up about colour blindness ....certainly not irrelevant to this subject.....

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## Paddy79

> Interesting for sure,......just reading up about colour blindness ....certainly not irrelevant to this subject.....


not irrelevant no, but colour is not the only thing  you should base your shot on though is it?

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## Rusky

> not irrelevant no, but colour is not the only thing  you should base your shot on though is it?


I believe the advantage of people having high vis is to try snap your brain back into reality that the object moving is no longer a deer but a human. It's a visual aid and nothing more.

I've heard movement in bush several times and known it was too loud or constant for a deer, and one of them was wearing orange high viz. Immediately it was identified as human. 

Here's a sale on ridgeline blue jackets. Down from $200 to $70. I got one a few days ago and it looks like the bees knees.

Buy Ridgeline Mens Mallard Jacket Blue Camo online at Marine-Deals.co.nz

https://www.marine-deals.co.nz/ridge...cket-blue-camo

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## TJM

I think blue is probably the way to go, I have a blue camo hat, hopefully enough??

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## striker

I have used two colours in the past or should say still do,  I wear a blaze blue vest or shirt during the day and as dusk starts to fall I put on a fluro yellow vest with reflectors strips, but it has to be new and clean, as they age and or get dirty they can look different colours and the reflectors break down.

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## homebrew.357

I have a orange hat, a bright orange over jacket, a bright flashing bike light on my bum. The thing is you have got more chance of being killed on the road getting to your hunting ground. Or I properly will get flattened by a chopper that thinks I`m a landing pad. It`s a bloody shame there`s things happen, I feel for the family involved .

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## Sideshow

I won’t be wearing blue anytime soon as it’s one of the colours that deers see!
But I do hear you on the blaze orange looking like red. So I’ll be going with the camo pink!
Have yet to see a pink dear :XD:  :Wink: deer
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/dress...?source=images

Here’s a nice little number from Norway :Thumbsup:

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## Gibo

> I won’t be wearing blue anytime soon as it’s one of the colours that deers see!
> But I do hear you on the blaze orange looking like red. So I’ll be going with the camo pink!
> Have yet to see a pink deardeer
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/dress...?source=images
> 
> Here’s a nice little number from Norway
> Attachment 85741


Lots of pockets for your make up  :Grin:

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## Paddy79

I wear either an oilskin or a Swandri weather dependant of course, no camo, no blaze orange, no blue, no bells and whistles. All this targeted marketed stuff you need to kill a deer is a bunch of crap. Understand your prey know what your prey look like know what they sound like know how they behave and you will not mistake ol  Hill Billy Jack  for a god dam deer.
mistaken identity is just a bullshit excuse for a useless trigger happy poacher to get off murder.

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## Sideshow

Which eyeliner do you prefer @Gibo the blue, blaze orange  our the camo green  :Psmiley:

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## 7mmwsm

> Which eyeliner do you prefer @Gibo the blue, blaze orange  our the camo green


Gibo would look a bit devilish with black lipstick too.

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## Rushy

> Gibo would look a bit devilish with black lipstick too.


Now I am gonna have nightmares for a fortnight.

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## BeeMan

Even a top pocket for ur earings @Gibo  :Grin:

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## Sideshow

> Now I am gonna have nightmares for a fortnight.


Only a fortnight @Rushy the memory is not what it used to be ah.... @Gibo your next victim awaits  :Psmiley:  :XD:  :36 1 7:  :36 1 8:  :Blah:

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## Flyblown

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...-by-stag-fever

The end of this sorry tale detailed in this recent news story. 

The fact that Leech was wearing a brown oilskin jacket has attracted some attention round these parts. I don't wish to get some of you fellas all rarked up by recounting exactly what I was told this morning in Katikati, just know that over and above the trauma suffered by the families involved, there's some damn unhappy blokes who've lost a mate despite their best efforts to get him to change his ingrained habits.

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## Pengy

Very sad.
I wonder what is perceived as a higher level of carelessness, if this was supposedly in the lower  :Sad:

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## GWH

> Very sad.
> I wonder what is perceived as a higher level of carelessness, if this was supposedly in the lower


Possibly something like shooting someone brushing their teeth while spotlighting in a DOC camping ground

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## Sideshow

Just really tragic all round. 

As the judge said you are entitled to wear what you want. But this seems to make that statement seem rather hollow.

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## Flyblown

My understanding, @Sideshow is that it was the defendant’s lawyer that said that in a commendable effort not to communicate any blame towards the dead man. We talked about that in town today. However whilst that sentiment is understood and respected, hollow is one way of expressing the frustration that is felt. 

After these conversations on the way to Tauranga this morning, I invested in some new hi-viz gear today ahead of my first lengthy foray into public land for a fair while, including a blaze orange backpack cover.

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## GWH

> My understanding, @Sideshow is that it was the defendant’s lawyer that said that in a commendable effort not to communicate any blame towards the dead man. We talked about that in town today. However whilst that sentiment is understood and respected, hollow is one way of expressing the frustration that is felt. 
> 
> After these conversations on the way to Tauranga this morning, I invested in some new hi-viz gear today ahead of my first lengthy foray into public land for a fair while, including a blaze orange backpack cover.


Hope you still got the receipt, that stuff is as bad as the brown mate if seen in low light (under the canopy)  and seen behind/thru scrub, you might want to think about swapping it for blue - or do what I and many others now do, all green or camo and not be seen at all, rather than make yourself a target.

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## Flyblown

I hear what you’re saying @GWH. Down on our block we tested the good stuff and some not so good stuff not long after this thread started in response to some earlier comments, the proper glowing blaze orange e.g. Hunters Element, right down to full dark under the canopy. Twice, in different locations from numerous different angles, in the light, in the shade. The quality gear did not turn brown, not at all. Stood out like a luminous bloody beacon. But I wouldn’t say the same of an old faded Stoney Creek camo pattern fleece we tried, I got one of those that is well past it and that was pretty ordinary in low light, to say the least.

Me and the missus properly disappear in our camo but after lots of questions and a fair bit of argument we came to the conclusion that some top quality hi viz was the way to go and like I say we checked it properly. Things like the pack covers will only be used on the trails in the day when hiking in and out of basecamp, the packs don’t get worn when hunting. With those on you’ll be able to see us from 3 miles and 10,000ft.

Its an emotive subject and I don’t want to start another debate but our decision was clear to us, based on what we could see in real hunting conditions.

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## Sideshow

Yes blaze PINK is the way forward as not seen by deer, not like blue. And better than orange which seems when old our in poor like be mistaken by others for various reasons. At worst wear pink I might get mistaken for a grinder  :XD:

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