# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  Call to Arms

## Koshogi

Our rights as firearm owners are under attack. The media, the Police Association and others are having a concerted effort to destroy the firearms culture of New Zealand.  They are lying and deceiving politicians and the public. *Now is the time to act.*

Write to the media. Write to your local representative, write to the Police Minister, write to the Prime Minister. Let them know,* no more.* *Now is the time to act.*

Call the lies out. Call the deception out. *Now is the time to act.*

This is my response to the Select Committee report, use it or write your own. 
*Response to the Law and Order Select Committee Report: 
Inquiry into issues relating to the illegal possession of firearms in New Zealand*
Dear Members of Parliament,

I write to you in response to the report by the Law and Order Select Committee released on 7th April 2017. I feel that the recommendations contained within the report fails to properly address any of the real issues of firearms crime in New Zealand, and instead seeks to encumber lawful firearm, the NZ Police and the tax payers, with administrative and financial burdens.

*Bias of Critical Submissions and Premise*
The entire premise of this enquiry has been tainted from its onset.  The media, NZ Police and the NZ Police Association have all perpetuated a misleading and often erroneous campaign against lawful firearms ownership in New Zealand. The New Zealand Police Association has routinely claimed in the media that _There is a "major problem_" with illegal gun possession in New Zealand, says the Police Association.(1) or that _Anyone with the right licence can import military assault style rifles, he said, but the problem was where they go once they're in the country.
"Because they're not registered to individual owners they go missing, they get stolen, and we don't even know what's out there_." (2). The fact is that firearm related crime is at a 10-year low, and the details of every MSSA legally imported into the country is recorded by the NZ Police. So where is the problem? Is there actually a major problem with firearms in New Zealand or is the NZ Police Association and media distorting the truth to fit a personal agenda?

Lets look at what the New Zealand Police in their submission (3) to the Select Committee, said about firearm crime:  


The firearm seizures are up though, so is that an indication of an increase in firearm possession? Once again, we will have a look at what the NZ Police said:


So what about illegal handguns?


Were they actually stolen pistols though?


So, can people just import a MSSA into the country with no restrictions like Chris Cahill, President of the NZ Police Association claims? No, it is an offence to import any firearm, pistol, MSSA or restricted weapon without a permit issued by the NZ Police Arms Act 1983 s16 Offence to import firearms, starting pistols, restricted airguns, or restricted weapons, or parts of firearms, starting pistols, or restricted weapons without permit.

Clearly the New Zealand Police Association, or just the President Chris Cahill, do not like law abiding citizens and residents of New Zealand owning firearms. This is clear from their presentation to the Select Committee:

Too many firearms? Where or why is there a limit on the number of firearms held by licenced citizens?

The presentation and submission continues with the Associations or Presidents anti-gun narrative with claims of:
	Numbers of firearms seizures, which do not correspond with official NZ Police figures;
	Raising the issue that someone could buy an A Category firearm and then fit a magazine with greater than 7rd capacity. Which would be illegal. Just like if someone bought a Ferrari, and then broke the speed limit.
	Raising the issue of .50 caliber rifles. Firearms used for long range target shooting, that cost in excess of $10,000, some costing more than $25,000. What criminal is going to spend that money?
	Referencing the New Zealand Hunting Shooting Forum thread about obtaining an E Endorsement. Claiming that it was Subverting requirements on legitimate membership of Rifle Club, participating in3 gun matches and claiming the need for pest control when the true intent is hunting.. What legislative requirement is this? There is no such requirement. The only requirement for an E Endorsement is that one be a fit and proper person.

*Reports Recommendations*
I will address each of the reports recommendations, including those that contradict themselves.
*Sale and supply of firearms and ammunition* 
1.	that the law be amended so that a firearms licence is required to possess ammunition, unless the person in possession of the ammunition is under the immediate supervision of a firearms licence holder (page 7). 

As it is already an offence to possess ammunition without a lawful, proper and sufficient purpose (Arms Act 1983, s45). What will a legislative amendment change? Effective enforcement by the NZ Police and courts of the current law would achieve the same goal.

2.	that the law be amended so that a firearms dealers licence be required to sell or supply ammunition by way of a business (page 7). 

What would this achieve? The law already prohibits sale of ammunition to unlicenced persons (Arms Act 1983, s43B).

3.	that the law be amended so that dealers be required to keep records of sales of ammunition (page 8). 

What would this achieve? Ammunition does not a have a unique serial number. So how would this control the supply of ammunition? Effective enforcement by the NZ Police and courts of the current law would achieve the same goal.

4.	that it create a Police registration process for websites that wish to facilitate the buying, selling, or trading of firearms, parts of firearms, or ammunition online. It would be an offence to operate such a website without current registration (page 8).

What would this achieve? Any person conducting the sale of firearms as a business must already possess a dealers licence. Any private sales are already controlled by legislation. So, what would this registration control or stop? 

5.	that the permit to procure process be extended to cover the sale or transfer of all firearms (page 9).

What would it achieve? 

The NZ Police have a difficult time processing the current applications for permits, with some persons waiting in excessive of two years for an application to be processed. How would this additional burden be met by current NZ Police resources? Who would pay for the additional resources? 

Current permit to procure procedures require the purchased/transferred firearm brought to a NZ Police station to verify the details of the firearm. This is often done in full view of the public, criminals and those on bail. Is this not going to increase the risks firearms in public and those with criminal intent identifying those with firearms?

Would criminals obtain a permit to procure? 

Would a licenced father need to obtain a permit to procure in order to borrow a firearm from his licenced son or daughter? Would another permit be required to return that to the father? What would this administrative burden achieve?

*Definition of military-style semi-automatics* 
6.	that the Police investigate the creation of a category of restricted semi-automatic firearm (rifle and shotgun) to replace the MSSA firearm endorsement category (page 10). 

What would this achieve? 

How many crimes are committed with MSSAs? How many are seized by NZ Police? According to the NZ Police submission, MSSAs accounted for 0.022% of all firearm seizures in 2013/14. (Table three: Seizures of firearms by Police, by type, 2005/5 to 2014/15. Reference 3)

How many semi-automatic .22LR rifles and 12 gauge shotguns will be affected by the creation of a new category? For what purpose? How many will disappear into the grey market?

*Effectiveness of licensing, training, and registering firearms* 
7.	that firearms prohibition orders be implemented in New Zealand (page 12). 

Is the possession of firearms by unlicenced persons already an offence? Yes. Arms Act 1983, s43B. *Will this make it doubly illegal?*
Effective enforcement by the NZ Police and courts of the current law would achieve the same goal.

8.	that the Police Arms Manual guidelines on determining who is fit and proper to possess firearms be codified within the Arms Act 1983, with any necessary modifications, to improve the overall certainty and consistency of the licensing process (page 13). 

The Police Arms Manual is not law. It should not be viewed as law. The current process has worked successfully since the enactment of the Arms Act 1983.
The NZ Police can continue to use their internally written manual as guidance in vetting applicants, but the decision should ultimately rest with the courts.

9.	that it implement a stand-down period after revocation of a licence, before a new application for a firearms licence can be made (page 13). 

What would this achieve? Any person who is not a fit and proper person as a result of their actions that caused the revocation of their licence, would not be issued a licence.

10.	that the Arms Act 1983 be amended to clearly state that a gang member or prospect must not be considered a fit and proper person to possess firearms and therefore must not hold a firearms licence (page 15).

This is already contained within the Police Arms Manual. If the NZ Police adhered to their own guidance material, they would achieve the same goal. As mentioned in the report, the NZ Police have not followed their own guidance and issued firearms licences to numerous known gang members.

The report detailed evidence of 44% of gang members and prospects having been charged with a serious offence involving a firearm. 9% had been charged with five or more offences in their lifetime. So what really have the courts done? Are these persons wo have committed serious violent offences free to roam New Zealand to commit further offences? 

The report also identifies that the NZ Police had issued 29 gang members with firearms licences. Six of these have since been revoked. Why were these issued in the first place? If the NZ Police Arms Manual states that a person who have affiliations with a gang involved in committing violent offences or in conflict with another gang is not a fit and proper person, why did the NZ Police issue the licence? Was each of those applications rejected and then appealed against? 

Who decides what a gang is? How do you identify who a prospect is?

Any person who has a serious criminal record should not be considered a fit and proper person. 

If you have not committed any crime, should you lose your rights? Every person should have the right to appeal against the NZ Police decision.

11.	that the law be amended to require the Police to record the serial numbers of all firearms possessed by licence holders upon renewal of their licence or inspection of their premises (page 16). 

The report contradicts itself here, it states We recommend that instead of creating a firearms register, the legislation be amended to require the Police to record the serial numbers of firearms owned by licence holders. Page 16 

Where are they going store the serial numbers of these firearms? In a register?

The report also provides a list of issues relating to registration:
_
There are several issues with registering firearms, many of which were raised in the 1997 Thorp Report and the 2001 report of the Law and Order Committee on the Arms Amendment Bill (No 2) 1999. These include: 
	the cost of implementation and the time it would take 
	lack of evidence that registration will result in a reduction of violence involving firearms
	difficulties with obtaining a high degree of compliance and accuracy 
	the number of illegal firearms that would remain outside the system (including those in possession of the criminal community), which would significantly reduce the benefits of registration._

How would these issues not remain with the proposed recommendations?

What would recording serial numbers of firearms achieve?

*Criminal offending with firearms* 
12.	that it review the penalties in the Arms Act 1983 (page 18). 

How often are the maximum penalties imposed currently?

In March 2017, a person who was convicted of unlawful possession of pistol, MSSA, other firearms and drugs, was only given 3 months community work. Under the current offences in the Arms Act 1983, the individual could have been sentenced to up 7 years of imprisonment and/or fines of $9000. Were these applied? No, so what will increasing the penalties achieve, if the current ones are not even enforced?

Effective enforcement by the NZ Police and courts of the current law would achieve the same goal.

13.	that the law be amended so that where a dealer has committed an offence under the Arms Act 1983, the court must treat this as an aggravating factor at sentencing (page 18). 

What type of offence? An administrative offence? Making a human error while completing paperwork?

14.	that the Police undertake further work to determine appropriate security standards for A category firearms (page 19). 
Why is this in the Criminal Offending with Firearms Section?

The NZ Police have a long history of ultra vires policies. They have recently attempted to impose new requirements on the storage for endorsed firearms. This is being challenged by a judicial review in June 2017. The firearm community does not trust their competence to make these decisions.

While improving security for A category firearms is a sensible goal. Caution must be taken to ensure that the requirements do not make an excessive financial burden, on farmers or those who use firearms as tools of trade.

15.	that the law be amended to make it clear that the secure storage requirements must be met to the satisfaction of the Police, before a licence or endorsement can be issued (page 19). 

Arms Regulation 1992, s19 and 28 require ALL firearms be stored correctly.

What would this achieve?

16.	that it extend the power under regulation 29 to allow the Police to enter premises to inspect the security of A category firearms (page 19). 

Why should law abiding person forego their rights? If the NZ Police feel an offence has/is being committed, should the NZ Police not have to provide evidence to a court and obtain a warrant?

Why do persons who have already demonstrated that they are fit and proper persons have less rights than a convicted criminal?

17.	that the Arms Act 1983 be amended so that failure to comply with the storage regulations must result in revocation of a firearms licence (page 19).

If the NZ Police have evidence that a person has contravened Arms Regulation 1992, s19 or 28, then they should lay charges. It is up to a court to decide the punishment for that particular offence. 

*Reducing the number of grey firearms* 
18.	that it clarify the amnesty in section 10 of the Arms Act 1983 and extend it to include MSSAs, A category firearms, and the handing in of firearms to the Police (page 21). 

May clarify some drafting errors.

19.	that the Police develop policy guidance so that, under the amnesty, when people hand in firearms that are unlawfully in their possession, or report firearms lost, stolen, or destroyed, the Police will have the discretion not to prosecute for the possession offence, subject to police inquiries not revealing offending other than breach of lawful possession of firearms(s) under the Arms Act 1983 (page 21). 

May clarify some drafting errors.

*Importing firearms into New Zealand* 

20.	that it ensure that visitors who have imported firearms and have been in the country for up to twelve months for a sporting holiday or competition should have the export of the firearms checked by the Police when they leave New Zealand (page 24). 

What resources do the NZ Police have to allocate to this? 

As of the 27th February 2017, 6727 firearm licences are shown to be expired. Only 2455 of these are in the process of renewed. What are the NZ Police doing about the other 4272? (5)

Can the NZ Police really commit to any more administrative burdens?

*
What should be done about the illegal possession of firearms in New Zealand?*

The best and clearly most effective method to tackle the illegal possession of firearms in New Zealand, is enforcement and application of appropriate penalties by the courts, under the current laws. The existing Arms Act 19834 and supporting regulations, supply sufficient penalties to punish those who misuse firearms in New Zealand. Increasing penalties mean nothing if the current penalties are not enforced.

The report identifies that burglary is a common source of criminal access to firearms. The current NZ Police resolution rate for burglary is 9.3% (6). What in the report tackles this? Nothing. The NZ Police should increase resources to reduce the burglary rates and to increase their resolution rates. Not wasting resources monitoring law abiding citizens and recording serial numbers.

Gun crime in New Zealand, including homicides, is down. 

New Zealand does not have a firearms problem. New Zealand has an enforcement problem.

Do not waste valuable Police resources with administrative burdens, that only monitor those who are already fit and proper citizens of this country. We are the doctors, the lawyers, the professionals, the tradesmen, the workers. New Zealand shooters are the backbone of this country. Do not punish us. Punish the criminals. 


Kind regards,

Koshogi












 
References:
1.	Gun inquiry will shock - Police Association: Gun inquiry will shock - Police Association | Radio New Zealand News
2.	Illegal guns a focus for new Police Assn president: Illegal guns a focus for new Police Assn president | Radio New Zealand News
3.	NZ Police Submission to Select Committee:
https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...c8a9bc1245bf62
4.	Stuff NZ March 29 2017:
Marlborough man Michael Just sentenced for weapons collection, cannabis grow room | Stuff.co.nz
5.	Kiwi Gun Blog: Thousands of Expired Licenses Go Unchecked: https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...-go-unchecked/
6.	Burglary exclusive: 164 burglaries a day unsolved:
Burglary exclusive: 164 burglaries a day unsolved - National - NZ Herald News

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## Ryan

Top drawer submission, everyone should read this.

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## ROKTOY

A very well written letter.

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## veitnamcam

> Our rights as firearm owners are under attack. The media, the Police Association and others are having a concerted effort to destroy the firearms culture of New Zealand.  They are lying and deceiving politicians and the public. *Now is the time to act.*
> 
> Write to the media. Write to your local representative, write to the Police Minister, write to the Prime Minister. Let them know,* no more.* *Now is the time to act.*
> 
> Call the lies out. Call the deception out. *Now is the time to act.*
> 
> This is my response to the Select Committee report, use it or write your own. 
> *Response to the Law and Order Select Committee Report: 
> Inquiry into issues relating to the illegal possession of firearms in New Zealand*
> ...


Can I send a link to my local paper and maybe they can contact you for a story?
There is a reason I am an engineer and not an English teacher or politician.....That kind of thing I just can't do.

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## Koshogi

> Can I send a link to my local paper and maybe they can contact you for a story?
> There is a reason I am an engineer and not an English teacher or politician.....That kind of thing I just can't do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


No problem. PM me for my email if you want.

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## Awaian

is it okay to 'cut n paste' this as an own submission?
maybe with 'I strongly endorse the above/following concerns regarding the reports recomendations'
I always wonder if it is acceptable?

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## stretch

You, Sir, are a wordsmith. Wordy McWordinson. Excellent arguments.

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## Danger Mouse

> is it okay to 'cut n paste' this as an own submission?
> maybe with 'I strongly endorse the above/following concerns regarding the reports recomendations'
> I always wonder if it is acceptable?


Yeah I'd like to print 120 copies and send it to every mp. I'm trying to find out if my contacts in the media are interested

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## Koshogi

> is it okay to 'cut n paste' this as an own submission?
> maybe with 'I strongly endorse the above/following concerns regarding the reports recomendations'
> I always wonder if it is acceptable?


Please do. Use all or any part you wish.

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## Koshogi

If anyone would like this in word format, please pm me.

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## stug

Well written. I have emailed a few MP's tonight and already got one reply. The more emails/letters they get the better their understanding of the issues.

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## Ryan

As an aside, Koshogi is also available for birthday parties and bar mitzvah.*  :Psmiley:

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## PERRISCICABA

Thank you for the write up, i have copy it and send it to Minister Paula Bennett, Hon. Winston Peters and Ron Mark I wish i knew few more that it would work on

Cheers.

Mac

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## Chur Bay

Just sent it to my local mp

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## Moutere

New Zealand does not have a firearms problem. New Zealand has an enforcement problem.
Thats the catch phrase right there.

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## stretch

> New Zealand does not have a firearms problem. New Zealand has an enforcement problem.
> Thats the catch phrase right there.


And a judiciary / sentencing problem.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## 199p

Love it mate

Will copy and email tomorrow as a follow-up to the emails i have already send.
Re media i also have a couple of contacts and will hit them up on your behalf 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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## Dorkus

I know Ron Mark for NZ first is all over this but I've pushed it through to another MP I know personally. The more of us who are in behind it the better

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## 223nut

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar...

Copied and sent to a the local mp and a few others

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## stretch

COLFO's analysis of the report is out, and it's well written. http://www.colfo.org.nz/22-colfo/law...9s-report.html

Everyone should be using COLFO's report;  @Koshogi's template; and some of the better comments on Paula Bennett's FB post to form their own responses to send to MPs. Much of the work has been done for you, so if you're not much of a wordsmith, copy and paste the bits you like into your own submission. Get cracking.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...53222321496908

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## 199p

Keep up the good work guys
Send a bunch of emails / fb posts this morning 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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## gonetropo

i got a reply from one of colemans lackeys informing me he had forwarded to the police minister, i kindly replies that hunting and shooting is a sport and recreation

what sort of muppets are we electing ??

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## veitnamcam

> No problem. PM me for my email if you want.


Emailed local rag and CCed you in, hopefully I done good.

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## Awaian

Yeah, I got the same from Mathew for Coleman, I also pointed out, well, here it is....

Hullo Mathew,
thank you for your prompt reply.
I have to differ with you on the relevance of the letter to your minister's portfolio.
As his office is responsible for sporting matters I believe this involves his office.

It was a firearm (and shooter) that brought New Zealand it's first medals (silver) in the latest Olympics at Rio (for instance).

The proposals in the report will have effect on lawful, licensed, "fit and proper" firearms owners/users and could affect individuals ability to easily pursue their pastimes, sport and recreation.
So, please have his office consider this and ensure all New Zealanders right to recreation and sport involving firearms.

Sincerely yours,
me!


However, Peter Dunne was responsive and acknowledgements from other Nats.
Other parties next!

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## Krameranzac

It should be sent to this guy.

https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...nash-responds/

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## 199p

> It should be sent to this guy.
> 
> https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...nash-responds/


This is his email address

stuart.nash@parliament.govt.nz

If everyone sends him a couple of emails it will show him numbers

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## stug

Send an email to every Labour MP and they will forward it to him because he is on the Law and Order committee. But send the emails individually because they will ignore it if it is a send to all email.

Here is a link to all NZ mp's email addresses 

http://1law4all.kiwi.nz/support-us/c...ail-addresses/

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## stug

And rebuttal for secure records at Police. 

Former cop charged with illegally accessing computer system

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## Sideshow

Thanks Stug and Koshogi! I'm seeing if me Old man will post this up in his local RSA.
Am also writing to the MPs on this list Stug, as a return NZ citizen concerned with the destruction to his sport and recreation!
MPs hate to loss those new voters ah :Omg:

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## stug

More evidence of corrupt Police

Police officers convicted of 52 crimes in three years | Stuff.co.nz

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## stug

Another source for Police charged with offences

https://fyi.org.nz/request/79/respon...m%20Mellor.pdf

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## gadgetman

> And rebuttal for secure records at Police. 
> 
> Former cop charged with illegally accessing computer system


And this one.

Police officer accused of working with gang | Stuff.co.nz

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## Krameranzac

> i got a reply from one of colemans lackeys informing me he had forwarded to the police minister, i kindly replies that hunting and shooting is a sport and recreation
> 
> what sort of muppets are we electing ??


I wrote back with the same thing.

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## Ernie

I suggest we just all copy and paste to our relevent MPs and choke their in boxes, get this message across For Clutha / Southland send to  

Samantha.Price@parliament.govt.nz 

Todd  Barclays PA

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## Ryan

This is what could happen - an example from South Africa:

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...tml#post583566

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## Koshogi

I have received a response to my email from the secretary of David Seymour - ACT Party.

It looks like it is only NZ First and ACT who publicly support firearm owners. 

Make sure you let your representatives know who you will be supporting in the upcoming elections. 

"Dear Koshogi

*

On behalf of David Seymour thanks you for the below email regarding Law and Order Select Committee. 

*

David recognises that the firearm proposals made by the Law and Order Select Committee go far beyond targeting illegal gun possession. These proposals would punish responsible firearm owners for the actions of a criminal minority.

*

ACT was not represented on this committee but if a bill is put forward reflecting these ideas, ACT will oppose it.

*

Kind regards

*

Nicole Wood | Senior Private Secretary, Office of David Seymour"

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## Ryan

Test.

edit: I had to write the above in order to be able to view page 3 of this thread. Clicking on the "3" or last page icon kept taking me to the NZHS landing page.

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## GravelBen

I'm surprised systolic hasn't popped up on this thread to tell us the only responsible thing to do is to bend over and take whatever the police want to give us.  :Wtfsmilie:

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## Savage1

> Another source for Police charged with offences
> 
> https://fyi.org.nz/request/79/respon...m%20Mellor.pdf


That's a very dicey argument to try, how would a list of offences committed by 'fit and proper' people look? And how would that list work for your argument.

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## stug

@Savage1 showing that the Police database is not secure because unfortunately some Police or Police staff (like all professions) are not honest and have/may used the police database for criminal means. Yes they would probably be caught, but the data would be out there. I realise the link posted did not state the offences, but it shows that not even the Police are able to stop their own people from acting in a criminal manner.

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## MassiveAttack

No database anywhere is secure, ever.

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## kiwijames

Reply from Stuart Nash to me. Probably the same cut and paste seen by many? At least I got a reply but it failed to answer any question asked in my own shamelessly cut and paste (Stug) letter. 

_Dear James,
Thanks very much for your email.

First of all, you are right when you say that the Select Committee inquiry focus was on how criminals are accessing firearms (title of the inquiry was 'Inquiry into Issues Relating to the Illegal Possession of Firearms in New Zealand'), but as part of the inquiry, we also investigated ways that made it harder for criminals and gangs to access firearms. 

The terms of reference for the inquiry were:
·        How widespread firearm possession is amongst criminals, including gangs
·        How criminals, gangs and those who do not have a licence come into the possession of firearms
·        What changes, if any, to the current situation may further restrict the flow of firearms to criminals, gangs, and those who do not have a licence.

The committee did note that the vast majority of firearms users in New Zealand are law-abiding, and we did not wish to impose any form of unreasonable cost or impost on them at all.
We received 99 submissions; including from Central North Island Club, Bruce Rifle Club, Council of Licensed Forearms Owners, Greater Wgtn Muzzle-loading club, Firearms Safety Specialist NZ, Mountain Safety Council, Paul Clark, Pistol NZ, Rural Women NZ, Sporting shooter association of NZ, NZ Customs, etc etc, so we had a wide and varied range of opinions and views. 

There were 20 recommendations as outlined in the Committee’s report in the link below:-

https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...6269b2427510b9

The process from here is that NZ Police has received a copy of the Select Committee’s report, and they will write a further report containing their own recommendations for the Minister. 
The Minister must then decide what to do with it and what, if any, recommendations she decides to pursue. 

If law changes are required as a result of any recommendations the Minister accepts, these will have to go through the full consultation process and members of the public will have an opportunity to submit their views at this point in time. 

It is my expectation that NZ Police will consult and work in partnership with the representatives of gun owners to ensure that what is finally recommended is sensible and achievable and does not impose undue cost or restrictions on law-abiding citizens. 

Thanks
Stuart_

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## tararua

Oh shit I knew I shouldn't have registered my serial numbers and gun details when the officer asked. I invested a lot of time and effort into my collection.

Now I have to live my life expecting gang members to come to my house and try pinch them.

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## Savage1

> Our rights as firearm owners are under attack. The media, the Police Association and others are having a concerted effort to destroy the firearms culture of New Zealand.  They are lying and deceiving politicians and the public. *Now is the time to act.*
> 
> Write to the media. Write to your local representative, write to the Police Minister, write to the Prime Minister. Let them know,* no more.* *Now is the time to act.*
> 
> Call the lies out. Call the deception out. *Now is the time to act.*
> 
> This is my response to the Select Committee report, use it or write your own. 
> *Response to the Law and Order Select Committee Report: 
> Inquiry into issues relating to the illegal possession of firearms in New Zealand*
> ...


Any one can import an MSSA, in parts, don't try and make out that the statement is incorrect.

Just because crime is at a "low" doesn't mean that it's not a problem or that there isn't going to be a problem, I'm actually finding there are more armed offenders out there, especially in the last 12 months, but this could just be regional, but there is a major problem.

The problem is that any person can import the parts to assemble a MSSA or buy up a-cat firearms and onsell them to anyone without any kind of trail. The Police assosiation example involving the head hunter is a perfect example, he hasn't been prosecuted as there is proof that he supplied to unlicenced people.

In the last six months I've been involved in two incidents where guns were pointed at frontline police, one incident shots were fired and it was a MSSA.

Just because something is an offence doesn't mean that it's a deterrent, just like speeding, lots of people speed on open roads, put a speed camera out there (a way of being caught) and they stop.

The PA presentation was reffering to too many firearms in the wrong hands, not in general.

1) Yes possession of ammunition by a non-FAL holder is already an offence, I'm unsure why he thinks otherwise but is a very minor issue here.
2)3)4) Agreed, not really needed.
5) I disagree with this as well, too much hassle. I'd rather a compulsory notification sent to Police via e-form or similar. It's not about whether a criminal would obtain a p2p, it's that the FAL holder wouldn't sell to a person without one as they could be traced.
6) they haven't defined what the new category would involve here so speculation can go both ways, it does need some kind of change to make less open to interpretation.
7)prohibition orders would stop people using them under someone elses supervision which isn't an offence and would remove any defence for having one, great idea for certain people.
8)fit and proper is subjective to the police, that is in law, so if they decide to put it in a code book then it is arguable whether it is law or not. Sure it can be challenged in the courts but anything can be. Your argument is irrelevant to the point.
9)stops muppets from intantly applying, getting turned down and dragging it through the courts. But agreed it's not really needed.
10) It's the courts that decided that being a gangmember alone isn't reason enough not to be considered fit and proper. Police are bound by the courts decision so your whole argument is unfounded.
11) I actually think this is ok, they're already recording B C E cat weapons and it appears to be effective, sure there are negatives but there are certainly positives as well, the main one being the deterrence of on-selling to non FAL holders.
12)Judges can't just dish out maximum sentences cumulatively whenever they like, they're bound by legislation and are also open to appeal. To increase the penalties would give the judges more freedom to give bigger sentences. it's much easier to give 2yrs imprisonment on a 10yr max penalty that a 2yr max penalty.
13) selling firearms to unlicenced people?
14) Who cares what section it is, that's erroneous. This is a great submission, financial burden? Do you expect them to spec bank safes? more likely BCE standards or less.
15)there is nothing to say an endorsenment can't be issued until there is suitable storage arangements, this would remove that.
16)Do you really have a problem with random inspections? I see no end of unsecured firearms by some great and generally responsible people, so many get stolen from unlocked safes too. It's hardly like your house is going to be searched whilst you're put in plasticuffs and are not free to leave. If all people were reasonable this kind of thing wouldn't need to be law.
17)actually it's the police who decides who is fit and proper so it's up to them to revoke FALs, it's in the arms act.

You talk about effective enforcement however the problem is that the Police aren't able to enforce some of the current laws because of easy defences and lack of accountability of FAL holders for the whereabouts of their firearms. Have you ever investigated a burglary? If so you'd know just how notoriously hard they are to solve due to lack of evidence, and if this is how FAs are mainly obtained then increasing security should be first priority. Preaching about Police needing to solve more burglaries is just easy scapegoating. 

Not all people that're vetted 'fit and proper' are 'fit and proper'

I'm not against you at all, just trying to add a bit of perspective and play devils advocate.

----------


## Ryan



----------


## Steve123

All the replies with original messages are gonna break the interweb. @Savage1 "When is the Police Association going to lobby for random searches on gang pads  and recidivist burglars? 

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

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## 223nut

Made a post on the other thread, don't agree with what everyone is saying. Some recommendations aren't entirely stupid some go to far. Have written my letters as should all of those making any comments on the forum. Hope everyone who is commenting on this subject has made some at least that might make a difference instead of batching about this here.

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## veitnamcam

> Any one can import an MSSA, in parts, don't try and make out that the statement is incorrect.
> 
> Just because crime is at a "low" doesn't mean that it's not a problem or that there isn't going to be a problem, I'm actually finding there are more armed offenders out there, especially in the last 12 months, but this could just be regional, but there is a major problem.
> 
> The problem is that any person can import the parts to assemble a MSSA or buy up a-cat firearms and onsell them to anyone without any kind of trail. The Police assosiation example involving the head hunter is a perfect example, he hasn't been prosecuted as there is proof that he supplied to unlicenced people.
> 
> In the last six months I've been involved in two incidents where guns were pointed at frontline police, one incident shots were fired and it was a MSSA.
> 
> Just because something is an offence doesn't mean that it's a deterrent, just like speeding, lots of people speed on open roads, put a speed camera out there (a way of being caught) and they stop.
> ...


Thanks for you input to this thread Savage1.

I have a major problem with "Random inspection" if a gang members p lab cant be randomly inspected at any time with no reason then why can I not tell police wanting to inspect my security(which is well above minimum A spec) to fuck off if I am in the middle of bumming the missus,celebrating an event, just dont feel like dealing with the man.
Why should I have less rights than known criminals known to be performing criminal acts?

And I also have another major problem with police telling us what arms are acceptable....in no short time we will all be using slingshots or be criminals....dont say it isnt so your spokesperson clearly wants no arms available to the public.

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## Beavis

The problem overall I have with the submission, is the fact it has missed the target. It isn't difficult to read between the lines and see that the police association are saying "actually you guys(licensed gun owners) are the problem". But are we? Are the criminal organisations not? So say the police get what they want, we still have these organisations and their members out there. Peddling meth. Stealing guns. Laundering money. And I'm left wondering what lobbying the police are doing to deal with them properly. Why should I be subject to this kind of scrutiny and warrentless inspection when these parasites have rights against this, and get pathetic sentances when caught? These people are half the reason we have to lock firearms away. They are the problem. Deal with them.

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## Jexla

Warrantless searches has to be the most fucked up thing a select committee has ever suggested in NZ history. We wouldn't do it to criminals, so why the fuck would we do it to those deemed fit and proper by the police themselves?

If you suspect someone of committing a crime get a fucking warrant like you have to with everyone else.

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## Savage1

> Warrantless searches has to be the most fucked up thing a select committee has ever suggested in NZ history. We wouldn't do it to criminals, so why the fuck would we do it to those deemed fit and proper by the police themselves?
> 
> If you suspect someone of committing a crime get a fucking warrant like you have to with everyone else.


Actually warrantless searches have always been around and are conducted on criminals daily, and if you had any understanding about law enforcement you would know why they're very necessary and what their limitations are.

And where was "searches" mentioned? I recall seeing "inspections", which are two completely different things. You don't like the other side exaggerating so why do it yourself?

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## Krameranzac

This is why I will never support registration.

----------


## veitnamcam

> The problem overall I have with the submission, is the fact it has missed the target. It isn't difficult to read between the lines and see that the police association are saying "actually you guys(licensed gun owners) are the problem". But are we? Are the criminal organisations not? So say the police get what they want, we still have these organisations and their members out there. Peddling meth. Stealing guns. Laundering money. And I'm left wondering what lobbying the police are doing to deal with them properly. Why should I be subject to this kind of scrutiny and warrentless inspection when these parasites have rights against this, and get pathetic sentances when caught? These people are half the reason we have to lock firearms away. They are the problem. Deal with them.


Hear hear!

----------


## Tommy

I really like how, when presented with the opportunity to ask for the courts to actually enforce the law as it already stands, and apply deterrent penalties, they instead go wobbly over a whole pile of other options that have been proven to not work very well or at all.

"Anyone can import an MSSA"  -  this report makes for increased border inspections?

" I actually think this is ok, they're already recording B C E cat weapons and it appears to be effective, sure there are negatives but there are certainly positives as well, the main one being the deterrence of on-selling to non FAL holder"   -   During my last interaction with the police AO, the records were 40% accurate on what I actually had. They aren't up to it. The AO was telling me an M1 carbine was a bolt action, while she held it in her hands. Had no idea what MSSA features actually were. Didn't care either. 

"12)Judges can't just dish out maximum sentences cumulatively whenever they like, they're bound by legislation and are also open to appeal. To increase the penalties would give the judges more freedom to give bigger sentences. it's much easier to give 2yrs imprisonment on a 10yr max penalty that a 2yr max penalty."   -  Why wasn't this this crux of the report? Penalise the lawbreakers!

13) That's already illegal last time I checked

14) There's already a shit fight going re certing perfectly good safes, while giving licences to HeadHunters. While I would personally agree that some of the police's own guidelines are pretty lax, the police at the moment are being pretty difficult for the sake of it, so not trusting bullshit castle is perfectly reasonable imho. They quit lying through their teeth on national TV, and Joe license holder might actually trust them. They aren't, so we don't.

16) Let's talk about that kilo of meth that went missing. When was that discovered? Where did it go? Maybe it should have been on a list? Who's accountable for that? Where are we with that investigation? How's Mike Sabin? (We trust you all, cos you're all good guys right? I'm pretty sure you are, but there are some pretty fucking bad eggs in the NZ police). My gear is locked up tight, cos I'm a fit and proper person. Why push for me to be checked without a warrant, at random, when you could push for checks of, I dunno, criminals?

17) Contradicts 10) 


Look I respect that you actually answered, but they just plain missed the point of this inquiry (purposely or otherwise). It's that simple. Opportunity lost. They didn't even bother to familiarise themselves with the current laws beforehand either, it was a lazy hackjob with an agenda. THAT is why people are angry with this.

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## Krameranzac

NZ First update. You do not need to be a Facebook user to view.

https://www.facebook.com/RonMarkMP/v...5599608986165/

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## Ryan

> Actually warrantless searches have always been around and are conducted on criminals daily, and if you had any understanding about law enforcement you would know why they're very necessary and what their limitations are.
> 
> And where was "searches" mentioned? I recall seeing "inspections", which are two completely different things. You don't like the other side exaggerating so why do it yourself?


Search / inspect... sama sama 

Inspect to see what is there. If it's not there, presumably there are grounds then to search for it.

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## Jexla

> Actually warrantless searches have always been around and are conducted on criminals daily, and if you had any understanding about law enforcement you would know why they're very necessary and what their limitations are.
> 
> And where was "searches" mentioned? I recall seeing "inspections", which are two completely different things. You don't like the other side exaggerating so why do it yourself?


You should be a politician next.

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## timattalon

> Any one can import an MSSA, in parts, don't try and make out that the statement is incorrect.
> 
> Just because crime is at a "low" doesn't mean that it's not a problem or that there isn't going to be a problem, I'm actually finding there are more armed offenders out there, especially in the last 12 months, but this could just be regional, but there is a major problem.
> 
> The problem is that any person can import the parts to assemble a MSSA or buy up a-cat firearms and onsell them to anyone without any kind of trail. The Police assosiation example involving the head hunter is a perfect example, he hasn't been prosecuted as there is proof that he supplied to unlicenced people.
> 
> In the last six months I've been involved in two incidents where guns were pointed at frontline police, one incident shots were fired and it was a MSSA.
> 
> Just because something is an offence doesn't mean that it's a deterrent, just like speeding, lots of people speed on open roads, put a speed camera out there (a way of being caught) and they stop.
> ...


I see and understand that there are clearly different perspectives on these issues. My biggest concern is around the sheer volume of resources in dollars and manpower hours that will be needed to cope with the suggestions. The delays show us they cannot cope with the resources that are available now. If we were to put a value or indication on the cost in staffing and dollars, would these resources not be more beneficial to be spent on actually targeting the criminals? The police , and especially the front lie cops, have enough of a challenge now. Let put the resources that we can into the place where it will do the most good. The Canadians spent over $2billion on registration before giving up. That is nearly $60 per person in Canada. To put that in perspective that would be about $227 million in NZ. Lets put that to better use.

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## tararua

If police are being confronted by criminals with guns, why don't we just allow police to carry all the time? It seems like a case of tail wagging dog to me.

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## Krameranzac

> If police are being confronted by criminals with guns, why don't we just allow police to carry all the time? It seems like a case of tail wagging dog to me.


That would get my full support. I have no concern with full time armed police.

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## Sideshow

> NZ First update. You do not need to be a Facebook user to view.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/RonMarkMP/v...5599608986165/


Thanks for that Karmeranzac just as I thought! Guys have a look at this ^^^^^^
They say it's a first draft but we need to be all over this like flys on poo. The Tory government did it to gun owners in a the U.K. Just like National will try to do it in NZ. We already know the usual suspects, but there seems to be a few wolfs in sheeps clothing out there! 
I think you also need to add a where do you personally stand on shooting and hunting to any letter to an MP make the question one that has to be answered with a yes or no so you know where to caste your vote!
Man can't trust any of theses buggers.
As Snowy said there all the bunch of the Thieves! (He was talk about Egyptians just before going in at ANZAC cove but it seems apt)
Get your letters out now guys!!!!
🍻 
Have a safe Easter ah!

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## Koshogi

> Any one can import an MSSA, in parts, don't try and make out that the statement is incorrect.


Not sure what you are on about with that comment. The law currently requires a permit to import ANY part of an MSSA. Can people do so illegally? Of course they can. Mr Cahill's comments were not about the illegal importation of MSSAs though.

Anybody can *ILLEGALLY* import drugs or slaves into this country too....




> Just because crime is at a "low" doesn't mean that it's not a problem or that there isn't going to be a problem, I'm actually finding there are more armed offenders out there, especially in the last 12 months, but this could just be regional, but there is a major problem.


The OFFICIAL NZ Police statistics and NZ Police submission to the Select Committee would differ with you on that.





> The Police assosiation example involving the head hunter is a perfect example, he hasn't been prosecuted as there is proof that he supplied to unlicenced people.


So he wasn't prosecuted because _there is proof that he supplied to unlicenced people._ :Wtfsmilie:  Maybe that's the problem, NZ Police only prosecute people were they don't have any proof....




> In the last six months I've been involved in two incidents where guns were pointed at frontline police, one incident shots were fired and it was a MSSA.


Two incidents, with no injuries, in 6 months, is a major problem?




> Just because something is an offence doesn't mean that it's a deterrent, just like speeding, lots of people speed on open roads, put a speed camera out there (a way of being caught) and they stop.


Your argument doesn't make sense.




> The PA presentation was reffering to too many firearms in the wrong hands, not in general.


Chris Cahill and his predecessor have made it abundantly clear their attitude about the number of firearms in civilian hands. 

_There appears to be a glaring omission in the report when it comes to tightening up on the tens of thousands of firearms imported into New Zealand every year. 

"We have to ask why on Earth we need all these firearms, why we need MSSAs and pistols, and why is it acceptable to not know where many of these weapons end up, Mr Cahill said._ Source




> 1) Yes possession of ammunition by a non-FAL holder is already an offence, I'm unsure why he thinks otherwise but is a very minor issue here.


The Select Committee not even knowing what the current law is, is a _very minor issue_ :Wtfsmilie: . It discredits the entire Report and destroys any faith the firearms committee into the competency of the Select Committee members.





> 5) I disagree with this as well, too much hassle. I'd rather a compulsory notification sent to Police via e-form or similar. It's not about whether a criminal would obtain a p2p, it's that the FAL holder wouldn't sell to a person without one as they could be traced.


Hmmm...sounds familiar "_Just because something is an offence doesn't mean that it's a deterrent_". How would the NZ Police even know they had them? They couldn't be stolen? 




> 6) they haven't defined what the new category would involve here so speculation can go both ways, it does need some kind of change to make less open to interpretation.


Open to interpretation? The definition is of MSSAs is pretty clear. It is only the NZ Police who likes to reinterpret the category of firearms. Thankfully the courts quashed their last attempt.




> 7)prohibition orders would stop people using them under someone elses supervision which isn't an offence and would remove any defence for having one, great idea for certain people.


If a 'fit and proper' person is supervising the use of the firearm, what is the problem?

If the person is not using it for a 'lawful, proper of sufficient purpose', charge them.

_45 Carrying or possession of firearms, airguns, pistols, restricted weapons, or explosives, except for lawful, proper, and sufficient purpose
(1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 4 years or to a fine not exceeding $5,000 or to both who, except for some lawful, proper, and sufficient purpose,
    (a) carries; or
    (b) is in possession ofany firearm, airgun, pistol, restricted weapon, or explosive.
(2) In any prosecution for an offence against subsection (1) in which it is proved that the defendant was carrying or in possession of any firearm, airgun, pistol, restricted weapon, or explosive, as the case may require, the burden of proving the existence of some lawful, proper, and sufficient purpose shall lie on the defendant._




> 8)fit and proper is subjective to the police, that is in law, so if they decide to put it in a code book then it is arguable whether it is law or not. Sure it can be challenged in the courts but anything can be. Your argument is irrelevant to the point.


Your argument doesn't even make sense.....




> 9)stops muppets from intantly applying, getting turned down and dragging it through the courts. But agreed it's not really needed.


Stops 'muppets' from using their right of appeal? How dare these people use the judicial system in their defence....




> 10) It's the courts that decided that being a gangmember alone isn't reason enough not to be considered fit and proper. Police are bound by the courts decision so your whole argument is unfounded.


So, my argument that if you _have not committed any crime, (you) should you lose your rights?_ is unfounded? :Wtfsmilie: 




> 11) I actually think this is ok, they're already recording B C E cat weapons and it appears to be effective, sure there are negatives but there are certainly positives as well, the main one being the deterrence of on-selling to non FAL holders.


Effective? You're joking right? 

I know dozens of people who have had incorrect details of BCE firearms on their licences.

The point you are really missing though. How many people will comply? How may will hide them away? 

If the NZ Police do not know what people have now, how will the deter selling to unlicenced persons? 

What was the compliance rate in Canada or Australia?




> 12)Judges can't just dish out maximum sentences cumulatively whenever they like, they're bound by legislation and are also open to appeal. To increase the penalties would give the judges more freedom to give bigger sentences. it's much easier to give 2yrs imprisonment on a 10yr max penalty that a 2yr max penalty.


Actually judges are REQUIRED to 'dish out' maximum sentences....

_
Sentencing Act 2002 - 8 Principles of sentencing or otherwise dealing with offenders
In sentencing or otherwise dealing with an offender the court
(a) must take into account the gravity of the offending in the particular case, including the degree of culpability of the offender; and
(b) must take into account the seriousness of the type of offence in comparison with other types of offences, as indicated by the maximum penalties prescribed for the offences; and
(c) must impose the maximum penalty prescribed for the offence if the offending is within the most serious of cases for which that penalty is prescribed, unless circumstances relating to the offender make that inappropriate; and
(d) must impose a penalty near to the maximum prescribed for the offence if the offending is near to the most serious of cases for which that penalty is prescribed, unless circumstances relating to the offender make that inappropriate; and_

Unless the possession of MSSAs, pistols and drugs is not a serious case....





> 13) selling firearms to unlicenced people?


That would already be an offence....




> 14) Who cares what section it is, that's erroneous. This is a great submission, financial burden? Do you expect them to spec bank safes? more likely BCE standards or less.


I care. It implies that it is 'criminal offending'. 

So a farmer with their single shot .22LR must get a $900 E/C rated safe? With an engineers certificate produced every 24mths, because you know....metal dissolves withing 2 years...




> 15)there is nothing to say an endorsenment can't be issued until there is suitable storage arangements, this would remove that.


Yet, their *IS* something saying that a person can not take possession of an endorsed firearm until suitable security is in place.

[_B]28 Security precautions in relation to pistols, military style semi-automatic firearms, and restricted weapons[/B]
(1)Every person who is lawfully entitled to possession of a pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon other than an air pistol by virtue of a permit under section 18 of the Act or a firearms licence endorsed under section 30 or section 30B of the Act shall ensure that, except when the pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon is in his or her immediate physical possession or is being used, in accordance with section 31 of the Act, for the purpose of making a broadcast or producing or staging a play or filming a cinematic production or television film or is in the custody of a licensed dealer or a member of the Police, it is
      (a)kept in a steel and concrete strongroom of sound construction and of a type approved for the time being in writing either generally or in the particular case by a member of the Police; or
      (b)kept in a room of stout and secure construction capable of being adequately secured against unlawful entry, being in every case a room which is approved for the purpose by a member of the Police and which meets the following requirements:
           (i)the room shall be in structurally sound condition:
           (ii)the doors that give access to the room, and their locks, bolts, hinges, and other fastenings shall be in good condition:
           (iii)the windows, skylights, or other things intended to cover openings to the room, and their locks, bolts, hinges, and other fastenings shall be in good condition:
           (iv)the doors referred to in subparagraph (ii) and the windows, skylights, and other things referred to in subparagraph (iii) shall be capable of being secured against unlawful entry; or
     (c)locked in a steel safe or steel box or steel cabinet (being in every case a safe, box, or cabinet of sound construction and of a type approved in writing either generally or in the particular case by a member of the Police) bolted or otherwise securely fixed (in a manner approved in writing either generally or in the particular case by a member of the Police) to the building within which the pistol or military style semi-automatic firearm or restricted weapon is kept._




> 16)Do you really have a problem with random inspections? I see no end of unsecured firearms by some great and generally responsible people, so many get stolen from unlocked safes too. It's hardly like your house is going to be searched whilst you're put in plasticuffs and are not free to leave. If all people were reasonable this kind of thing wouldn't need to be law.


Yes, I really have a problem with giving up my rights.

It's not like we haven't seen NZ Police acting unreasonable...




> 17)actually it's the police who decides who is fit and proper so it's up to them to revoke FALs, it's in the arms act.


So, you are saying that you already have the power. SO you don't need to change anything then.




> You talk about effective enforcement however the problem is that the Police aren't able to enforce some of the current laws because of easy defences and lack of accountability of FAL holders for the whereabouts of their firearms. Have you ever investigated a burglary? If so you'd know just how notoriously hard they are to solve due to lack of evidence, and if this is how FAs are mainly obtained then increasing security should be first priority. Preaching about Police needing to solve more burglaries is just easy scapegoating.


So, because burglaries are "_notoriously hard they are to solve_, you punish the victims? That's not scapegoating?

Police complaining about how hard it is do do their job, but want more work to do....OK.  




> Not all people that're vetted 'fit and proper' are 'fit and proper'


So maybe the NZ Police should stop giving out licences in Wheatbix boxes then....




> I'm not against you at all, just trying to add a bit of perspective and play devils advocate.


Good, I'm not against the NZ Police. I have great respect for the difficult and often thankless job you do. I just demand that the NZ Police are held accountable and operate under the legislative system that governs us all.

Making secret submissions to the Select Committee and lying to the media does not inspire trust though.

----------


## keneff

In a nutshell.




> New Zealand does not have a firearms problem. New Zealand has an enforcement problem.
> Thats the catch phrase right there.

----------


## 300CALMAN

This IS the big problem here when you give over law making to Police you WILL end with a police state.

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## 300CALMAN

> Actually warrantless searches have always been around and are conducted on criminals daily, and if you had any understanding about law enforcement you would know why they're very necessary and what their limitations are.
> 
> And where was "searches" mentioned? I recall seeing "inspections", which are two completely different things. You don't like the other side exaggerating so why do it yourself?


 :O O:  inspection = limited search

you already have us on facial recognition

New biometric photo technology will help police nab crims captured on CCTV | Stuff.co.nz

Exaggerations or lies?

The problem is @Savage1 whats next? once these changes don't work what will be the next phase of law changes. Maybe the police should be campaigning to deal with the apparent changes to our culture that have criminals arming themselves and acting violently toward the Police (if this is indeed getting worse)? Or is that just too hard? Easier just to have a go at firearm owners?

----------


## mikee

> inspection = limited search
> 
> you already have us on facial recognition
> 
> New biometric photo technology will help police nab crims captured on CCTV | Stuff.co.nz
> 
> Exaggerations or lies?
> 
> The problem is @Savage1 whats next? once these changes don't work what will be the next phase of law changes. Maybe the police should be campaigning to deal with the apparent changes to our culture that have criminals arming themselves and acting violently toward the Police (if this is indeed getting worse)? Or is that just too hard? Easier just to have a go at firearm owners?


Personally I think its just actually easier to appear to do something rather than actually do something.

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## Koshogi

Just in case you had any doubt about the intentions of the Police Association under Chris Cahill:

" _We need to examine why semi-automatics are needed in a hunting environment_ " " _bear in mind it's very easy to turn these weapons into full automatics and get them into the hands of criminals_ "

" _I've sat around a fire talking to hunters and duck shooters and they don't use semi-automatic weapons because they don't need to._ "

Morning Rural News for 20 April 2017 | Rural News | Radio New Zealand

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## Ryan

Weird - the only firearms I use when I do get to go hunting are semi-automatic. I must be unique.

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## Gibo

Sat around the fire talking out his arse I'd say

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## gonetropo

> Just in case you had any doubt about the intentions of the Police Association under Chris Cahill:
> 
> " _We need to examine why semi-automatics are needed in a hunting environment_ " " _bear in mind it's very easy to turn these weapons into full automatics and get them into the hands of criminals_ "
> 
> " _I've sat around a fire talking to hunters and duck shooters and they don't use semi-automatic weapons because they don't need to._ "
> 
> Morning Rural News for 20 April 2017 | Rural News | Radio New Zealand


well 10,000 bunnies so far. i would say well over 90% shot with a 10/22 or a semi 12gu.
deer and pigs shot with an sks or an l1a1 too. 
and to top it off for those of us with buggered shoulders a semi take lots of kick away

----------


## SlowElliot

> Just in case you had any doubt about the intentions of the Police Association under Chris Cahill:
> 
> " _We need to examine why semi-automatics are needed in a hunting environment_ " " _bear in mind it's very easy to turn these weapons into full automatics and get them into the hands of criminals_ "
> 
> " _I've sat around a fire talking to hunters and duck shooters and they don't use semi-automatic weapons because they don't need to._ "
> 
> Morning Rural News for 20 April 2017 | Rural News | Radio New Zealand


Easily turning semi's into full auto?
That can't be true is it?
How many criminal acts have happen in this country with full automatic rifles?

Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk

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## Ryan

Richard Prosser MP NZ 
Spokesperson for Outdoor Recreation 
20 APRIL 2017	 

POLICE SECRETARY OUT OF LINE OVER HUNTING RIFLE COMMENTS 

Police Association president Chris Cahill should stick to police union-related matters, and not interfere in the choice of legal firearms law-abiding licence holders use in the safe enjoyment of their sport, says New Zealand First Outdoor Recreation Spokesperson Richard Prosser

“Mr Cahill was on Radio NZ this morning repeating his questioning of the ‘need’ for-semi automatic hunting rifles and shotguns by hunters and duck shooters. 

“He claims* firearms which resemble military weapons and other semi-automatics pose a danger to the public.* 

The fact is police were unable to provide the recent Law and Order Select Committee inquiry into illegal possession of firearms with any figures to back up this claim – and that’s because they don’t pose any such danger.

“Sawn-off shotguns and cut-down .22s are the weapons of choice for criminals, not MSSAs that don’t even appear in the crime stats.

“Mr Cahill’s desire to further restrict and penalise law-abiding hunters and shooters will have no effect whatsoever on the criminals who are the problem.

“Frankly it’s none of his business what type of legal firearm people choose to use; he needs to focus on catching criminals and keep his nose out of law-abiding people’s business,” says Mr Prosser.

ENDS

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## Tommy

Cahill is a lying sack of shit. He needs to fuck off back where he came from.

----------


## Chur Bay

I couldnt believe the shit Cahill was spouting on RNZ today. 
What a cock smoker.
He's either dumb as shit or an out and out liar. 
Its* not* easy to turn semi autos into full auto
They are* not* more high powered than other firearms
They* are* useful in wide range of hunting applications.

----------


## oraki

Burn me at the stake if ya like, but some comments I've seen only confirm to Joe Public what Mr Cahill wants them to see. 
Sure get passionate about it, but keep your emotions and comments civil. This is a public forum, and to an outsider we appear to be a pack of Neanderthal beasts beating our chests, waving threats etc around. Calling him names and saying how you're not going to abide by the proposals that are out on the table, makes us look like vigilantes. 
Voice your concerns, with facts, but keep emotion and name calling out of it. 
I'm concerned what is being proposed, and all the untruths, and incorrect facts being spouted to the public, but we're a minority in the grand scheme of things. There's 240,000 odd licence holders and only a proportion of them know anything about this. Theres probably 2.5-3 million others that don't give a toss. They're easily swayed by the police word, because they're the law. Little Ol granny's etc don't want swearing,cussing, name calling beasts in charge of 'extremely high powered weapons of destruction'
This is what we're fighting against. 
Yes I have semi autos in my safe, and dammed if I want to give them up, but in the end majority normally rule. Next will be divide and conquer. 
I think all we can do is keep proving we are worthy off possession, and pointing out, in a civil manner how some facts and figures aren't quite as accurate as the leaders are portraying.

----------


## clickbang

> Burn me at the stake if ya like, but some comments I've seen only confirm to Joe Public what Mr Cahill wants them to see. 
> Sure get passionate about it, but keep your emotions and comments civil. This is a public forum, and to an outsider we appear to be a pack of Neanderthal beasts beating our chests, waving threats etc around. Calling him names and saying how you're not going to abide by the proposals that are out on the table, makes us look like vigilantes. 
> Voice your concerns, with facts, but keep emotion and name calling out of it. 
> I'm concerned what is being proposed, and all the untruths, and incorrect facts being spouted to the public, but we're a minority in the grand scheme of things. There's 240,000 odd licence holders and only a proportion of them know anything about this. Theres probably 2.5-3 million others that don't give a toss. They're easily swayed by the police word, because they're the law. Little Ol granny's etc don't want swearing,cussing, name calling beasts in charge of 'extremely high powered weapons of destruction'
> This is what we're fighting against. 
> Yes I have semi autos in my safe, and dammed if I want to give them up, but in the end majority normally rule. Next will be divide and conquer. 
> I think all we can do is keep proving we are worthy off possession, and pointing out, in a civil manner how some facts and figures aren't quite as accurate as the leaders are portraying.


Bang on. As frustrating as it is watching/listening to blatant lies.It drives us wild but the moment you start making silly threats, name calling and and swearing you do nothing for your/our credibility. 


Sent from my SM-A510Y using Tapatalk

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## Friwi

Can he be sued for misleading the public?

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## dogmatix

Yes, we do need to keep it civil and focus on the facts and message, not the messenger.
I'm no lawyer, but Cahill is not directly slandering as to cause a direct financial loss by drop in income earnings or directly harm a persons or groups reputation, so no legal action would work.
Nor is he a public servant anymore, he is employed by the union, so not subject to any State sector legislation.

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## oraki

Another thing.... Sensation sells stories. We've seen it over and over. Write a true and factual blurb, or film the whole story, it then goes to the editing room, and the published story bears no resemblance to the original. 


They try and hit you with a sledge hammer, create an uproar, then offer something not quite as bad as originally proposed. Compromise they'll call it,we'll let you keep this, but give us this

----------


## Ryan

Let's continue discussing the subject at hand in an objective and non-emotional manner.

Personally, I am pleased to see that this has finally brought to light just how devious these people (the Police Association and the upper echelons of the NZP) are in their approach to address "firearm crime". If it was actual crime they were talking about, they would not be making secret submissions. 

They would be very public about how they were going to do things - you know - to "send a message" to criminals. Like they do at press conferences when a uniformed panel sits in front of a Police banner in front of multiple cameras after a drug bust (like on Police 10/7). 

Drugs for example, are a far more serious problem than firearms in this country. The evidence is in the media coverage afforded to the number of:

* Lab / grow operations bust
* People arrested for drug related offences
* Properties that have meth contamination

Reduce drug offending and the criminal entity that controls their supply and maybe the number of illegal firearms in circulation will diminish? Too difficult? Easier to target and arrest the users arrested and increase their likelihood for dependence on the state (i.e. prison, rehabilitation programs, being a general social benefit sponge).  

The allusion that Customs purportedly have a lid on imports coming into the country is a joke - if that was the case - why does there continue to be such a significant influx of drugs and / or precursors into this country? Does it not stand to reason that firearms and / or their components can similarly be imported? Yet these "recommendations" by the select committee do nothing except pay lip service to addressing the (perceived) problem and only seek to further restrict the law abiding, quite non-criminal, vetted licensed firearm owners.

The absolute irony of the situation is that people will continue to use / misuse drugs, as they have done for millennia regardless of penalty.

----------


## Sasquatch

The part that gets me from what Mr. Cahill has said was this: _“He claims firearms which resemble military weapons and other semi-automatics pose a danger to the public."_ Little does he know that pretty much ALL firearms resemble military weapons one way or another. Where do you think your favorite hunting rifle originates from?

This comment annoys me because there seems to be a sector divided between firearm owners (fudds) about anything that resembles a black rifle. Not naming names but there are a few on this forum who certainly don't live in apathy about it and make it very clear they don't appreciate a certain type of semi-auto. You can't tell me you're that naive that your favorite Sako 85 in the whole wide world doesn't resemble a military weapon. 

I could use the same analogy on cars: fast cars, slow cars, electric cars, red cars, blue cars, ones with spoilers & wheels - you get the idea?

I care about your rights & right to own your firearm of choice just as *you* should do for mine.

----------


## Tankd

> Yes, we do need to keep it civil and focus on the facts and message, not the messenger.
> I'm no lawyer, but Cahill is not directly slandering as to cause a direct financial loss by drop in income earnings or directly harm a persons or groups reputation, so no legal action would work.
> Nor is he a public servant anymore, he is employed by the union, so not subject to any State sector legislation.


That is a maybe , it all depends on who negotiates his pay if it is the PSA then he falls under the Public service .

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## Steve123

Maybe we need to educate the public on what center fire ammo costs. Even a cheapy 7.62 x 39 would make a serious dent in the wallet on full auto.

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## dogmatix

I hope so Tankd. However the State Sector Act 1988 does not list Police as being a public service. 

State Sector Act 1988 No 20 (as at 17 December 2016), Public Act Schedule*1 Departments of the Public Service &ndash; New Zealand Legislation

PSA certainly covers Defence Force, MOJ and Corrections, not sure if it covers members of the Police who choose to be PSA rather than in the PA?

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## veitnamcam

> The part that gets me from what Mr. Cahill has said was this: _“He claims firearms which resemble military weapons and other semi-automatics pose a danger to the public."_ Little does he know that pretty much ALL firearms resemble military weapons one way or another. Where do you think your favorite hunting rifle originates from?
> 
> This comment annoys me because there seems to be a sector divided between firearm owners (fudds) about anything that resembles a black rifle. Not naming names but there are a few on this forum who certainly don't live in apathy about it and make it very clear they don't appreciate a certain type of semi-auto. You can't tell me you're that naive that your favorite Sako 85 in the whole wide world doesn't resemble a military weapon. 
> 
> I could use the same analogy on cars: fast cars, slow cars, electric cars, red cars, blue cars, ones with spoilers & wheels - you get the idea?
> 
> I care about your rights & right to own your firearm of choice just as *you* should do for mine.


I cant say I have noticed any anti black gun sentiment on this forum? plenty of reference to it but I dont recall seeing any?
Im not saying that there are no anti black gun firearm owners there are plenty it is just that most if not all that participate on here even if they dont personally like or own one support your right to have one and use it.I for one am the second.

----------


## Ryan

> I cant say I have noticed any anti black gun sentiment on this forum? plenty of reference to it but I dont recall seeing any?
> Im not saying that there are no anti black gun firearm owners there are plenty it is just that most if not all that participate on here even if they dont personally like or own one support your right to have one and use it.I for one am the second.


Oh it exists on this forum and I can certainly reference it if required, however doing so would be selfish and counterproductive as it only serves to achieve the PA's goal which appears to be "divide and conquer" (referring to Cahill's supposed campfire chat with hunters claiming that they don't semi-autos). 

We must not fall into that trap - we need to remember that this is about all licensed firearm owners.

----------


## Beavis

> I cant say I have noticed any anti black gun sentiment on this forum? plenty of reference to it but I dont recall seeing any?
> Im not saying that there are no anti black gun firearm owners there are plenty it is just that most if not all that participate on here even if they dont personally like or own one support your right to have one and use it.I for one am the second.


I have witnessed it from time to time, but I can't site any specific examples off the top of my head, mainly because I don't get hung up on other peoples ignorance or troll attempts. By far and large this is an inclusive board that paralells attitudes displayed on social media. Cahills comments provoked outrage among hunters and shooters on facebook yesterday. To be fair the select committee report has shaken the fence pretty hard. Regular Joe A cat hunters and shooters can see that the recommendations would have a direct effect on them, and they are not happy. This isn't just a pissing contest between MSSA owners and police HQ, like we have experianced being on the thin end of the wedge. Everybody is on board and it is great to see.

----------


## Nickoli

> I have witnessed it from time to time, but I can't site any specific examples off the top of my head, mainly because I don't get hung up on other peoples ignorance or troll attempts. By far and large this is an inclusive board that paralells attitudes displayed on social media. Cahills comments provoked outrage among hunters and shooters on facebook yesterday. To be fair the select committee report has shaken the fence pretty hard. Regular Joe A cat hunters and shooters can see that the recommendations would have a direct effect on them, and they are not happy. This isn't just a pissing contest between MSSA owners and police HQ, like we have experianced being on the thin end of the wedge. Everybody is on board and it is great to see.


Our current crop of leaders have a history of this sort of thing however - produce a report or series of recommendations that are over the top hard on a particular group, and then look like the good guys when they revise the proposals back: you still lose privileges but you feel better because it could have been worse.... Think recreational Snapper catch reduction not too long ago (with no commercial catch reduction...)
Incremental change doesn't hurt as much as radical change but long term it achieves the same result.

----------


## Sasquatch

> It is just that most if not all that participate on here even if they dont personally like or own one support your right to have one and use it. I for one am the second.


And it's guys like you who we really appreciate. A lot 

If the shoe was on the other foot and they were legislating bolt actions for "resembling" military sniper rifles because they can take out targets from a long way, we would be defending such preposterous claims. However, the police almost seem to be hinting at this for restrictions on importing .338 .50 cal, chassis systems etc.... (Watch this space)

And, I'd even jump in to the political fight in the future when laser beam guns like from star wars are under scrutiny. Even though I wouldn't personally procure them... Well, maybe!

----------


## screamO

The part that gets me from what Mr. Cahill has said was this: “He claims firearms which resemble military weapons and other semi-automatics pose a danger to the public." 
I hate to be the bearer of bad news.........but all firearms can pose a danger to the public? Actually I might be wrong......the firearm doesn't pose any danger to the public......I would be more concerned about the fuck knuckle holding the gun. It might be easier to restrict the amount of fuck knuckles?

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## keneff

> Personally I think its just actually easier to appear to do something rather than actually do something.


And cheaper, too. It's all part of the political smoke and mirrors. The  Illusion of reality, or vice versa. It's what Cahill and co are doing.

----------


## Savage1

I haven't been keeping up with his thread, but seeing what Cahill has been saying I'm going to take some time to write him a pretty firm letter.

----------


## oraki

> I haven't been keeping up with his thread, but seeing what Cahill has been saying I'm going to take some time to write him a pretty firm letter.


It's good to have someone on the other side of the fence. Even if if it does put you in no mans land. No doubt you see and hear more than general public, and must be tough having to sit on your hands. 
I know the feeling of wanting to say something, but can't because of the shit storm it would create. Good luck with your firm words, just watch the fence your straddling doesn't flick up and give you a boot in the nuts

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## Danger Mouse

Sent: Friday, 21 April 2017 9:06 p.m.
To: 'chris.cahill@policeassn.org.nz' <chris.cahill@policeassn.org.nz>
Subject: semi-automatic firearms comments

Mr Cahill,
You have certainly caused quite a stir amongst the 250,000 licensed firearms owners in the country and I am concerned with what can only be described as an agenda. You have risen through the ranks of police to Detective Inspector, you are not a stupid person.  Firstly, you mislead NZ about the purchasing of ammunition in NZ. You stated that a firearms license is not required to purchase ammunition in this country. https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...-police-union/ 

More recently you again misled the country in regards to semi-automatic firearms in the country. Mr Cahill, semi-automatic firearms are NOT easily converted to fully automatic. If they were, then they would be all over the place in criminal hands. But you already knew that didn’t you?  Apart from that, when a sample of a new semi auto firearm is assessed by PNHQ for approval, they check to make sure that it can't be readily converted to full auto. If it can, it won't be approved by the armorer. 

If you actually believe that semis really are "easy to turn into full automatics" then you must also believe that PNHQ, specifically the armorer, are incompetent and are failing to do their own jobs. You either deliberately mislead NZ, or believe that police staff are incompetent. But given your history of passing off anecdotes as hard fact (sitting with hunters by the campfire, really? Get a grip), and just plucking numbers to suit your agenda lying is the most likely scenario. 

I note that on the NZ police association web site mission/vison/values page https://www.policeassn.org.nz/about-...tives-/-vision it states: In the pursuit of our mission the Association will: 
•	Act with honesty and integrity
Your actions are not consistent with honest and integrity Mr Cahill. I am amazed that the police association is willing to accept the level of honesty and integrity from its president that you have demonstrated. To the point that if one of my soldiers had carried out similar behaviour, I would have charged them with bringing the service into disrepute. 

As such, complaints have been laid to the NZ broadcasting standards authority, Radio New Zealand, the IPCA,  the NZ Police association, and several MP’s. By many of us, the law abiding firearms license holders. The responsible people of society, deemed fit and proper to own firearms. You are persecuting the wrong people Mr Cahill, you should be focussing on actions that have an impact on the criminal elements of New Zealand, Not the law Abiding.

----------


## JasonW

> Sent: Friday, 21 April 2017 9:06 p.m.
> To: 'chris.cahill@policeassn.org.nz' <chris.cahill@policeassn.org.nz>
> Subject: semi-automatic firearms comments
> 
> Mr Cahill,
> You have certainly caused quite a stir amongst the 250,000 licensed firearms owners in the country and I am concerned with what can only be described as an agenda. You have risen through the ranks of police to Detective Inspector, you are not a stupid person.  Firstly, you mislead NZ about the purchasing of ammunition in NZ. You stated that a firearms license is not required to purchase ammunition in this country. https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...-police-union/ 
> 
> More recently you again misled the country in regards to semi-automatic firearms in the country. Mr Cahill, semi-automatic firearms are NOT easily converted to fully automatic. If they were, then they would be all over the place in criminal hands. But you already knew that didnt you?  Apart from that, when a sample of a new semi auto firearm is assessed by PNHQ for approval, they check to make sure that it can't be readily converted to full auto. If it can, it won't be approved by the armorer. 
> 
> ...


I wish I was that eloquent, really well written but a smackdown at the same time. 

Sent from my GT-I9295 using Tapatalk

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## PERRISCICABA

> Sent: Friday, 21 April 2017 9:06 p.m.
> To: 'chris.cahill@policeassn.org.nz' <chris.cahill@policeassn.org.nz>
> Subject: semi-automatic firearms commentso
> 
> Mr Cahill,
> You have certainly caused quite a stir amongst the 250,000 licensed firearms owners in the country and I am concerned with what can only be described as an agenda. You have risen through the ranks of police to Detective Inspector, you are not a stupid person.  Firstly, you mislead NZ about the purchasing of ammunition in NZ. You stated that a firearms license is not required to purchase ammunition in this country. https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...-police-union/ 
> 
> More recently you again misled the country in regards to semi-automatic firearms in the country. Mr Cahill, semi-automatic firearms are NOT easily converted to fully automatic. If they were, then they would be all over the place in criminal hands. But you already knew that didnt you?  Apart from that, when a sample of a new semi auto firearm is assessed by PNHQ for approval, they check to make sure that it can't be readily converted to full auto. If it can, it won't be approved by the armorer. 
> 
> ...


Has someone forward it to any "Media outlet" suggesting they do their job and find out what is really going on?

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## Beavis

Chris Cahill is single handedly destroying what is left of the relationship that exists with firearm user groups and police. While it is clear that the police, and the police association, are seperate entities, the police association claims to represent over 8000 police officers (ergo do they claim to represent all police?), and it's head has been pushing an agenda with flat out lies. It is ok to have a different opinion, but when you are actively pushing said opinion, in public, with lies and sensationalism, you are bringing who you represent into disrepute.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Has someone forward it to any "Media outlet" suggesting they do their job and find out what is really going on?


I tried with my local rag but did not even get a reply to my email.

Any half decent journalist who had done even one night of research would tear him apart.

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## Ryan

Just to attempt to dispel the myth that America is a "free for all" as far as firearms are concerned - a myth that has been debunked as much as it's been perpetuated. They have some pretty restrictive and ridiculous laws:

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## screamO

Shit they have some cool toys.

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## PERRISCICABA

Here is what Paula Bennett reply to my email I sent couple weeks back...
" 
Thanks for taking the time to write and provide your feedback on Parliaments report into firearms.

Ive got a family full of recreational hunters and fishers so I understand where you are coming from. My focus is on seeing fewer guns in the hands of criminals, and not on unduly burdening responsible firearms owners.

After an initial look at the recommendations I can see several that probably wont be progressed, but more work needs to be done. We are working through our response over the new few weeks and I will be getting in independent advisors from the hunting and sport shooting community to assist me.

I'll send you an update when we have some progress to report.  I do appreciate your feedback and officials are going through the almost 300 emails weve received.

Regards,

Paula Bennett
Minister of Police"

----------


## oraki

> Here is what Paula Bennett reply to my email I sent couple weeks back...
> " 
> Thanks for taking the time to write and provide your feedback on Parliament’s report into firearms.
> 
> I’ve got a family full of recreational hunters and fishers so I understand where you are coming from. My focus is on seeing fewer guns in the hands of criminals, and not on unduly burdening responsible firearms owners.
> 
> After an initial look at the recommendations I can see several that probably won’t be progressed, but more work needs to be done. We are working through our response over the new few weeks and I will be getting in independent advisors from the hunting and sport shooting community to assist me.
> 
> I'll send you an update when we have some progress to report.  I do appreciate your feedback and officials are going through the almost 300 emails we’ve received.
> ...


I got the same. What concerns me is the "almost 300 emails". Out of 240,000 licence holders, that's not much of a response. 
Not enough people know about the proposed changes. 
A bit of a rough workout: NZDA, and other shooting organisations......30,000 people?
                                     Forums,only about 20-30 people/forum acting on it....200?
                                     Facebook............maybe another 100?
This leaves a hell off a lot of people either not knowing, or sitting back thinking it won't happen. Of these people, most couldn't care about MSSAs being banned because it doesn't affect them. Some will accept that semi auto rifles and shotguns being changed category, because they only use them one weekend a year. 
They'll try and divide and conquer each group, but I hope everyone backs each group for the long haul. 

My challenge to all of you, is to let every licence holder know about this, and send emails etc to the relevant parties/people. 
Almost 90% of holders don't know what's going on, once it's done, it's to late to try and claw it back. 

As I said, those numbers are only a guesstimate. I could be well out, but the fact remains, only a very minute amount of affected people are reacting to this.

----------


## PERRISCICABA

I did and do share everything i can or get from Facebook to email's, to my NZDA branch to my still not so accessible Pistol club and i wish more people would act towards it as well I am sure many of us in this forum have expressed their concerns and opinions but we DO need more

----------


## Danger Mouse

> I got the same. What concerns me is the "almost 300 emails". Out of 240,000 licence holders, that's not much of a response. 
> Not enough people know about the proposed changes. 
> A bit of a rough workout: NZDA, and other shooting organisations......30,000 people?
>                                      Forums,only about 20-30 people/forum acting on it....200?
>                                      Facebook............maybe another 100?
> This leaves a hell off a lot of people either not knowing, or sitting back thinking it won't happen. Of these people, most couldn't care about MSSAs being banned because it doesn't affect them. Some will accept that semi auto rifles and shotguns being changed category, because they only use them one weekend a year. 
> They'll try and divide and conquer each group, but I hope everyone backs each group for the long haul. 
> 
> My challenge to all of you, is to let every licence holder know about this, and send emails etc to the relevant parties/people. 
> ...


it doesnt include the comments on her face book page, and comments by fish and game etc. Yes its a poor turnout, but i don think its QUITE as bad. I agree its probably due to people not knowing. Its pretty obvious to me its the government practicing the illusion of democracy. With the comments in the Australasian police document that is being shown around (before the select committee) and the UN stuff - the government is doing what it has to by law, and acknowledging commentary without committing in order to be perceived as listening. Ultimately doing the bare minimum, what is required by law, and carrying on with its own agenda. 

Look how many times cahill has been caught out lying. No comment from the police association, or the ministers. IPCA couldn't care less, they fobbed me off, and the media doesn't care because is only shooters that are being affected, they dont see the bigger picture of abuse of power. And lets face it, the average person is a complete dumb arse, so they cant see he bigger picture, which means it wont attract hits/views/commentary that the media is after. ergo, media doesn't care

----------


## Sideshow

Have not kept up with the thread but is this Cahill guy elected?

Also is this been posted in the other room?

----------


## Krameranzac

Stuart Nash in damage control mode. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...08580275872395

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## Danger Mouse

I think more people than we realise have registered rehired displeasure over this report. Seems some mp's are realizing just how many of us and our families there are. Hold the line, don't let these people convince you to vote for them

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## Sideshow

Thirty people posted there on his Facebook page.....ALL said he was wrong.......wonder if he's got the message :XD: 
Keep at em girls and boys :Thumbsup:

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## Sylvester

If you're in Hawke's Bay you should seriously consider heading along to Stewart Nash's public meeting to give feedback in person on the firearms enquiry reccomendations.

Thursday 27th April 7:30pm at Westshore Beach Inn.



https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...pier-shooters/

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...08580275872395

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## Longranger

It appears the Waiuku Pistol Club has a really bright Secretary......very ably supported by a lawful respectful Committee. There has been not a word of dissent from them.....!

This guy owns firearms.....maybe he should not be labled a "fit and proper person"........
https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...-useful-idiot/

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## Longranger

Anyone know this turkey......?

https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...-useful-idiot/

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## Sideshow

Apparently there appointing the independent advisors.
Who ever the independent advisor are they need to push for the status quo for law abiding firearm owners!

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## Friwi

A truly independent advisor is not going to stay independent long once he is presented with the bullshit from the media, nzpa, and other human right gangsta supporters!

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## Beavis

Is anybody on the board going to the Nash meeting tonight? Me and a couple others are going to do a mission over to see him if I knock off in time.

----------


## Sasquatch

A comment someone made on facebook about Nash's weak response video to the meeting, seems fairly accurate to me.
_
This looks and smells to me like a very similar scenario to a corporate restructure...the people who will be affected know they are screwed from the proposal, but the company "goes through the motions" to give the illusion they care and that you have a chance of swaying the direction, and to satisfy the law, but in the end nothing will change...difference is that this is right before an election...a lot of piggies scrambling as the trough is slowly pulled away._

----------


## Danger Mouse

> A comment someone made on facebook about Nash's weak response video to the meeting, seems fairly accurate to me.
> _
> This looks and smells to me like a very similar scenario to a corporate restructure...the people who will be affected know they are screwed from the proposal, but the company "goes through the motions" to give the illusion they care and that you have a chance of swaying the direction, and to satisfy the law, but in the end nothing will change...difference is that this is right before an election...a lot of piggies scrambling as the trough is slowly pulled away._


the illusion of democracy. I made a very similar statement, they know whats going to happen and are doing the minimum required by law (which they will ignore) to give the illusion of democracy.

----------


## systolic

> And if they do that (exactly what the Canadians tried) we just have to dig our toes in, refuse to comply and let the next batch of pollies scrap it in 5 years at hideous wastage of money, time and effort for absolutely zero gain (again exactly what the Canadians found).
> 
> What we all have to realise is that we aren't screwed, if we as the lawful sporting shooting community don't want this all we have to do is choose to not comply.  There aren't enough courts to tackle it for one, not enough Police to do anything about it for two, and for three ask the Canadians - they ain't stupid and they know when they can't do something.


Brave words until it's your door the cops kick in at 5.00am looking for the guns you haven't registered, shoot your dog and chuck stun grenades down the hallway.

Really worth risking for not registering a gun?

They don't have to do it more than a few times to make an example of a few people before the rest fall into line.

Fucked if I would risk that shit to own a gun I can't use, or even show anyone for fear of it happening to me. I'd rather buy another jetski or a faster motorbike.

----------


## dogmatix

You seriously post some absolute rubbish on this forum.

----------


## systolic

> You seriously post some absolute rubbish on this forum.


And what do you think will happen if the cops think you have unregistered guns?

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## Beavis

> And what do you think will happen if the cops think you have unregistered guns?


The same as they do with organised criminal gangs that have stacks of illegal firearms? The best part of fuck all?

----------


## outdoorlad

> Brave words until it's your door the cops kick in at 5.00am looking for the guns you haven't registered, shoot your dog and chuck stun grenades down the hallway.


Given their track record at trying to shoot dogs it would be pretty safe.  :Grin:

----------


## gimp

Re: inspections

It seems that a random inspection of security is next to useless unless it is functionally an unwarranted search of the property. Otherwise what do they do? Look in the gunsafe to check there aren't any guns not in there? Useless without knowing what should be in there. And of course registration is a massive headache for everyone involved in so many ways.

----------


## outdoorlad

I've just had a meeting with the local Waimak National MP about this, he said it's been pretty topical.

I explained that the inquiry had drifted off its mandate & that NZ First seemed to be the only ones who saw it. 

I expressed the shooting community's concern at the NZPA & NZ police making secret submissions & Mr Cahills tendency to make up stuff for the media & gave him an example.
We discussed sentencing or the lack of it for gang members caught with or using firearms, I also put forward that if burglars were targeted by the police the firearm thief rate would drop & to make the thief of a firearm an aggravating circumstance during sentencing, i.e you nick a gun & get caught you get 5yrs.
Interestingly he then brought up the cost of locking crims up & those who think we shouldn't be locking criminals up for long periods, etc I told him you can't have if both ways! 

We discussed registration, I pointed out it didn't work last time & doubt it will work again, explained Canada's 2billon go at it.
So I've asked him to submit two questions to the Police Minister for me.
1, What % of Police recovered B&E cat firearms are traceable back to there rightfull owners?
2, what % of all recovered firearms are untraceable i.e don't have a serial number still on them? 
It will be interesting to see what the answers are?

He agreed that even if the govt took all our firearms the crims would still get hold of them which lead us into discussing why punish us law abiding FAL holders when it won't change jack.

He said that Paula Bennett as Police minister has to report back to the select committee on what she thinks of the report by early July, I'd encourage all of you to email her outlining your concerns even if it's a quick paragraph.

I told him us voters would want to know Nationals policy on this before the election as a lot were worried about them pulling a swifty on it after the election (if they are still in!) 

He thanked me for my time & I'm now home having a cuppa tea.

----------


## Beavis

Good work outdoorlad thanks for putting the effort in.
With regards to your questions, I reckon the police response will be "no such data exists".

----------


## PERRISCICABA

In the other hand...  criminals are "not allowed" to stay long term in prison but we law abiding citizens "are allowed" to live inside our homes barricade as it is a prison so the criminals don't come inside... yeah, right!

----------


## mikee

> Given their track record at trying to shoot dogs it would be pretty safe.


yeah to be fair they have a far better record when it comes to "innocent passers by"

----------


## Koshogi

Police News April 2017

Notice the comment about "military grade sniper rifles that can kill a person a kilometre away"? That's every .30 cal hunting rifle..

They aren't just coming for the 'scary black rifles'..

----------


## Ryan

LoL how blames drugs for societal ills yet firearms are the "issue".

----------


## dogmatix

All this political gamesmanship by the union just shows its election year and is reinforcing who I'll be voting for.

----------


## Nickoli

> Attachment 68131
> Police News April 2017
> 
> Notice the comment about "military grade sniper rifles that can kill a person a kilometre away"? That's every .30 cal hunting rifle..
> 
> They aren't just coming for the 'scary black rifles'..


...all based on....? Lot's of assertions, no evidence and no basis in fact. 
Another Cahill acolyte for sure.

----------


## Gibo

Recent shipment smuggled and destined for Australia seized in US, same style can be bought here..... yeah with a lisence and correct endorsement. I really despise misleading story telling on matters like this

----------


## Steve123

> ...all based on....? Lot's of assertions, no evidence and no basis in fact. 
> Another Cahill acolyte for sure.


Maybe...just maybe ..... if the police put their speed camera's down, got off their arses and caught criminals they would be better off. Maybe if they lobbied the Judges and Politicians about deterrent sentences for firearms crimes they could chill out a bit.
I get a feeling the prick who wrote that thinks he's got a right to rule over us. Fuck him

----------


## Steve123

> Recent shipment smuggled and destined for Australia seized in US, same style can be bought here..... yeah with a lisence and correct endorsement. I really despise misleading story telling on matters like this


Military or plod grade could even mean a humble Rem 700.

----------


## mikee

> Military or plod grade could even mean a humble Rem 700.


exactly

----------


## Sylvester

Doesnt military grade just mean the cheapest crap that the army can get away with?

----------


## veitnamcam

Firstly not all cars in  the country are registered...not even close...... the writer needs to put the glass BBQ away.

Secondly I dont want any military grade crap I want GOOD gear!

----------


## veitnamcam

> Doesnt military grade just mean the cheapest crap that the army can get away with?


bet me to it.

----------


## oraki

> Attachment 68131
> Police News April 2017
> 
> Notice the comment about "military grade sniper rifles that can kill a person a kilometre away"? That's every .30 cal hunting rifle..
> 
> They aren't just coming for the 'scary black rifles'..


So who was this written by, hierarchy or a badge wearer. Seeing it's 'police news' I assume it's not Joe Public

----------


## stretch

Here's your military grade sniper rifle.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

----------


## Ryan

Or... Perhaps more famously:

----------


## PERRISCICABA

> Firstly not all cars in  the country are registered...not even close...... the writer needs to put the glass BBQ away.
> 
> Secondly I dont want any military grade crap I want GOOD gear!


It is why we buy TIKKA's!!!

----------


## veitnamcam

> It is why we buy TIKKA's!!!


No no no have you learnt nothing!  :Grin:

----------


## veitnamcam

> Or... Perhaps more famously:
> 
> Attachment 68139


I instantly recognize the top rifle but not the "more famous" one....what is it?

----------


## Beavis

> I instantly recognize the top rifle but not the "more famous" one....what is it?


Mosin Nagant

----------


## veitnamcam

> Mosin Nagant


ahh, is that actually more famous? I have seen and used many 303s as would have most kiwi hunters over 30 but I have never seen or used one of those.

----------


## stretch

> ahh, is that actually more famous?


Worldwide, probably.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Worldwide, probably.


Ok I am just a backwater hick sorry.

----------


## Tommy

> Ok I am just a backwater hick sorry.


Guess what tikka used to make? Mosins!

----------


## veitnamcam

Now I am really embarrassing myself but I thought they were Russian.
Thread off track far to much already tho.

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

----------


## systolic

Remington and Westinghouse ( the washing machine people) made them too.

----------


## Beavis

> Now I am really embarrassing myself but I thought they were Russian.
> Thread off track far to much already tho.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


Yea they mostly are Russian. The majority of Finnish rifles were assembled by Sako and Tikka out of Russian recievers. Much better quality guns than the Soviet ones. 

/end de-rail

----------


## PERRISCICABA

Hahaha! That was fun hey?!?!

----------


## Sasquatch

Back to that article, that was nothing more then emotive police propaganda. They're obsessed with the disillusion of civilians with anything "military-grade" 

Every single firearm on the planet was once or still _is_ military-grade or used by the military. Their argument has no boundaries & is somewhat dangerous.

----------


## Beavis

John Herbert, a representative on the Firearms Community Advisory Forum, had this to say about Polices intent, and its a worry!

--- BEGINS ---

I attended a Firearms Community Advisory Forum meeting yesterday and the purpose was to discuss the Select Committee's report on illegal firearms. The one clear thing to emerge from the meeting is that Police fully support EVERY recommendation.

They realise as we discussed this that quite a few of the report's recommendations would be hard to sell to both the Politicians and the general public but I can assure you Police have a positive spin on every recommendation and there was not one of the recommendations they thought could not help them. They truly believe all this is good, fair and reasonable.

Minister Bennett and other politicians are already starting to see the limitations of many of the recommendations but make no mistake Police will fight for everyone one of them to become law.

We need to raise our profile and our voices and send as much polite but firmly worded correspondence to the Ministers, including the likes of Stuart Nash so that are aware of the potential pitfalls.

Some thoughts:

Costs: If compliance is onerous people will opt out and this will create grey guns that eventually end up in the wrong hands.The budget to get much of this over the line is high and Police will look to claw it back off us.

Trust: NZ Firearms owners have low levels of trust for the Police and this again will impact compliance if the terms of compliance are too overbearing. As a Nation we value trust, transparency and integrity. The way Police have manage firearms over the last decade or so demonstrates none of these core attributes.

The report was about stopping Gangs and by default criminals getting guns, ask politicians how this will actually work in the real world, the Police were light on answers regarding many of the points so there is obviously still room for the TRUTH to actually get a fair hearing.

Many of the recommendations have a tenuous at best connection to the goal of the keeping firearms out of criminals hands. Remind the Politicians of this with as many examples as you can. The Police anwers are broad and undefined make yours specific and targeted.

Find 3 friends who have not sent a letter/email to a minister and ask for their support.

John Herbert 
New Zealand Service Rifle Association.

--- ENDS ---

Above copied from FOUNZ facebook page.

----------


## Danger Mouse

> Well, a non-exhaustive list of sniper rifles that were designed from civilian firearms tech or were used as hunting or target sport rifles (and are capable of taking down a man-sized target at 1000m as that was one of the design criteria for most of these firearms) would include Lee Enfield No1, No4, L39, L42, Enforcer, Mosin Nagant, Enfield P14 and M1917, Springfield 1903, Mauser (various), Parker Hale (various), a fairly wide range of African hunting double rifles (used to bust sniper plates in the trenches of WW1), a fair range of long rifles, Remington M700, Winchester M70, and to be fair the list includes just about anything that shoots.  I haven't started on semi-auto's or shotguns or pistols...
> 
> That article published in April '17 and signed under "Name Withheld" only proves that the author is seriously lacking in knowledge of history and the facts surrounding this issue.  One would expect less emotion and bullshit and a more thorough analysis of the facts prior to flapping the lower jaw or raising one finger in the process of repeatedly stabbing a keyboard to produce a "pie in the sky" dream land where there are no criminals.
> 
> Instead of dreaming of a rewritten Arms Act maybe they could try enforcement.  I have no concept of why the Police are concerned about what they consider high-powered firearms, after all we have concrete evidence that pneumatic firearms and rimfires will produce fatal wounds on humans (who are not in away way robust when compared to other mammal species).  I for one no longer have faith that the Police can actually do the job that the Arms Act empowers them to do due to the lack of leadership and vision from PNHQ, maybe it's time that we look to the LTNZ model where licensing is conducted by a standalone entity...


So we agree that it was Chris Cahill that wrote it

----------


## kotuku

> Attachment 68131
> Police News April 2017
> 
> Notice the comment about "military grade sniper rifles that can kill a person a kilometre away"? That's every .30 cal hunting rifle..
> 
> They aren't just coming for the 'scary black rifles'..


article makes me bloody laugh -methamphetamine -oh thats a fact but hey mr men in blue youe political masters are looking at legalising cannabis to buy the popular vote fuck me wont that make the road toll hilarious-road toll-yesssir your easy revenue earner.
oh and heres another wee conundrum-it seems NZpolice HQ are incapable of managing existing firearms laws and now want extra bought in -that dont float for a moment.Justice Jillian mallon has already given the police a right royal boot in the arse  in the freestanding pistol grip case,and now they want mummy government to fix it.
 also dont forget hansard has it on record these MP clowns debating firearms calling them Rambo guns etc etc-FFs these are meant to be intelligent people and most have a coterie of trough snufflers who should be put to work doing intelligent research on the issue before "yes minister"opens fat gob in the chamber!!

criminals are criminals and most of the major players couldnt give flying fuck about what society in general thinks of them.theyre init for the money&kudos and bugger any poor bastard who suffers as a result of their endeavours.all this bullshit about cost is beancounters&legal gougers speaking out their arses!!
IF YOU POLIS GAVE JUDGES FREE REINAND ENCOURAGED EM TI HIT HARD IN SENTENCING IT MAY WELL SHOW SOME DETERRENT.
I like to thank the judge here in CHCH whose just sent a 16yrold to the big mens house for a stretch.robbery with weapons son is a bloody serious issue!
aw but i fought id go to youf court and get a slap on da wrist-aw shit dis aint fair mammmmmmmmmmmmyyyhyyyyyyyy!!!!
It serves you bloody right and while your in there crapping yourself have thinkabout what youlldo when you get out!!!

----------


## systolic

> article makes me bloody laugh -methamphetamine -oh thats a fact but hey mr men in blue youe political masters are looking at legalising cannabis to buy the popular vote fuck me wont that make the road toll hilarious-road toll-yesssir your easy revenue earner.
> oh and heres another wee conundrum-it seems NZpolice HQ are incapable of managing existing firearms laws and now want extra bought in -that dont float for a moment.Justice Jillian mallon has already given the police a right royal boot in the arse  in the freestanding pistol grip case,and now they want mummy government to fix it.
>  also dont forget hansard has it on record these MP clowns debating firearms calling them Rambo guns etc etc-FFs these are meant to be intelligent people and most have a coterie of trough snufflers who should be put to work doing intelligent research on the issue before "yes minister"opens fat gob in the chamber!!
> 
> criminals are criminals and most of the major players couldnt give flying fuck about what society in general thinks of them.theyre init for the money&kudos and bugger any poor bastard who suffers as a result of their endeavours.all this bullshit about cost is beancounters&legal gougers speaking out their arses!!
> IF YOU POLIS GAVE JUDGES FREE REINAND ENCOURAGED EM TI HIT HARD IN SENTENCING IT MAY WELL SHOW SOME DETERRENT.
> I like to thank the judge here in CHCH whose just sent a 16yrold to the big mens house for a stretch.robbery with weapons son is a bloody serious issue!
> aw but i fought id go to youf court and get a slap on da wrist-aw shit dis aint fair mammmmmmmmmmmmyyyhyyyyyyyy!!!!
> It serves you bloody right and while your in there crapping yourself have thinkabout what youlldo when you get out!!!


Still havn't read the link? Punctuation | English Grammar Guide | EF

I hope you don't write clinical reports the way you write your posts on here.

----------


## Chilli_Dog

More dodgy reporting, Cahills firearm recommendations randomly tacked on the end of an article
Thousands of weapons intercepted at NZ borders as illegal imports rise | Stuff.co.nz

----------


## Sylvester

This seems like lazy reporting to me, he wasnt going to meet his word count so chucked in that last (one sided) bit as an easy fix.

----------


## kotuku

> Still havn't read the link? Punctuation | English Grammar Guide | EF
> 
> I hope you don't write clinical reports the way you write your posts on here.


 go look up tosser mate and insert yourself right there ignoramus .
In my late mothers terms 'oh dear still got the shit on your liver". 
My clinical report on you ;
This specimen is living proof that the act of sexual procreation is vastly overrated,and modern DNA even at its finest ,does show remarkable shortcomings" 
Whats ya job mate standin for sadsack or a test cadaver for embalmers?
pit Westinghouse &Remington didnt make arseholes -you'd have got the role as the perfect template!!!!

----------


## kotuku

now that d....d is out of the way ,and coming back onto the subject ,I see in Stuff today the owner of Guncity in timaru a Mr Wayne Golightly breathlessly telling all and sundry that the PoLiCe told him they have no way of tracing stolen guns,and hes all for a national guns register so they can trace em!!
Well bugger me with a pineapple and call me Nigel,wayne i can only guage from your comments that youre either a recent convert to the issue or youve in snug with em blokes.
 now look at history Wayne-it was late 1970s when there was a bloody paper register with assorted forms for assorted firearms lots of and all requiring police signatures.the cops got friggin rid of it cause it became too unwieldy-they went for a pretty little red license like the old style drivers license and you write each weapons details on a seperate page(IIRC).......oh no hold on new fangled computerised systems came in -the police system didnt cause it cost a fortune for a bloody failure???INCIS.

Ever heard of the Canadian Longarms Register Wayne???no ,well in short the canadian govt invested something like $3billion in this and it ultimately turned out a bigger failure than bloody INCIS!!

Finally if any of you want good peer reviewed research on the firearms issue ,theres nowt better than Professor Gary Mauser of Simon Fraser university ,Canada
 this man is amongst ,if not the top academic on the issue worldwide.
The local Coterie of so called Academics  our localMSM seek out are as much use as a babies nappy on a bull elephant with the shits in comparison to him.

He is on record ,and is not alone as saying NZin fact has the closest to ideal firearms laws of any country in the civilised world.

----------


## Krameranzac

@kotuku 

Do you have a link to that Stuff article?

----------


## Chilli_Dog

> @kotuku 
> 
> Do you have a link to that Stuff article?


No records on thousands of guns being stolen each year | Stuff.co.nz

----------


## Tommy

Hmm that article goes back to March last year

----------


## Chilli_Dog

> Hmm that article goes back to March last year


Didnt notice that I just searched the name, Stuff does have a habit of putting links to old stories in current articles, maybe thats how Kotuku found it

----------


## PERRISCICABA

Last time I went to the "GunCity" in Timaru it was a pawn shop who sell "gun related" itens and then it have very few rifles in the shelf. 
If has been around a year now but with the other great gun shops already stablished in there I think the owners should think a bit more before open his mouth. I know we have very nice and acknowledgeble people in this forum who live and "shop" around that area.

----------


## kotuku

> One of the reasons that the original Arms Act legislation did not specify the design of an acceptable gun safe is fairly simple to understand - like car steering wheel locks once someone has devised a way to quickly defeat them the entire class of lock is useless.
> 
> By not specifying the 'design' and giving construction guidance it prevents someone developing an 'unlock recepie' which is much better than the other option.
> 
> As far as that idiot in guncity in timaru, I have no idea what he's benefitting from by going down the line of promoting a registry - maybe a sniff of selling some gunsafes?  I still fail to understand how a registry will stop the theft of firearms, like motor vehicles once the numbers are obliterated who knows where the object came from...


 @Mauser308-thats exactly what intrigued me.this guy is in firearms retail surely he must be constantly exposed to shooters discussing politics of the sport ,and given the reputation of the franchise hes operating under does he deliberately flout popular opinion because he sees himself as a new age gun guru or is he just  ignorant.

----------


## Sylvester

> As far as that idiot in guncity in timaru, I have no idea what he's benefitting from by going down the line of promoting a registry - maybe a sniff of selling some gunsafes?  I still fail to understand how a registry will stop the theft of firearms, like motor vehicles once the numbers are obliterated who knows where the object came from...


I reckon he is only commenting to get some free publicity, no mattet the long term cost. Obviously not a very astute businessman.

----------


## Sideshow

> More dodgy reporting, Cahills firearm recommendations randomly tacked on the end of an article
> Thousands of weapons intercepted at NZ borders as illegal imports rise | Stuff.co.nz


I read that....."weapons"....that's how they spin this! They have included Knifes! How many Firearms! Not airsoft! But Firearms!
That's the number we need to know!

----------


## PERRISCICABA

> I read that....."weapons"....that's how they spin this! They have included Knifes! How many Firearms! Not airsoft! But Firearms!
> That's the number we need to know!


Cars and knifes are been used more and more as weapons, when will the "police" ban them too?
Honestly this "discussion only make me even more "upset", listening/reading about all the bullshit some idiots keep throwing in the "air" to get some "publicity", we MUST get ourselves "together" and fight these horrible allegations "some" people are PUSHING on us.

----------


## norsk

One way to avoid a serious challange to the Police's proposals is to have a "sweetner" in the deal for the Gun dealers.

Since any additional hassel involved in having a gun licence is likely to result in less firearms being sold,then pushing for all sales to go though dealers is a way of keeping them on side.

Gun dealers would love this.Especially when it comes to the sale of second hand Firearms,which going by the stock of the gun shops I visited in New Zealand is a market that has largely moved into cyber space.

----------


## gimp

I have emailed Stuart Nash, Paula Bennett, the "firearmsadvisers@gmail" or whatever it is, and my local MPs stating emphatically that I do not support these recommendations as a licensed and lawful firearms owner, and stating why. I encourage everyone else to do likewise.

----------


## Beavis

Done

----------


## Sideshow

Yep now's the time guys. Especially for those out duck shooting with mates that aren't on social media. Ask anyone you meet who you know has a ticket! A few letters from up and coming new voters i.e. The younger generation would not hurt either!
I wonder if there are any do your bit posted in any of the hunting and fishing stores gun city shooters and reloaders?
Might be time to email and ask them to put up notices. Anyone going in for ammo a new gun would then see this!

----------


## mikee

> I have emailed Stuart Nash, Paula Bennett, the "firearmsadvisers@gmail" or whatever it is, and my local MPs stating emphatically that I do not support these recommendations as a licensed and lawful firearms owner, and stating why. I encourage everyone else to do likewise.


Beat ya too it mate  :Grin:

----------


## gimp

Good. I've been meaning to do it for a couple of weeks, but haven't had time to sit down and do it til now.

----------


## mikee

> Good. I've been meaning to do it for a couple of weeks, but haven't had time to sit down and do it til now.


Great, I hope everyone else has also been doing the same and keeping it "polite but firm".

----------


## tommygun

> Great, I hope everyone else has also been doing the same and keeping it "polite but firm".


Started drafting this evening.

----------


## Beavis

Keep the pressure up guys. Nicole reports she has recieved hundreds of emails from a wide number of user groups. If you know someone that hasn't sent anything, flick them the email address. Even it is one paragraph, something like " I do not support any of the select committe recommendations because I do not believe they target criminals". Numbers matter.

----------


## Gibo

Can someone give me a big email list to send this to  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## stug

@Gibo Current MPs email addresses | 1law4all

----------


## Gibo

Shot Stug, just found that and they are  all getting a bomb  :Have A Nice Day:  Very polite bomb.

----------


## JWB

It is fairly clear that the vast majority of licence holders have no problem with police usurping the power of parliament and making up the law to suit themselves. Most have no problem filling out an  illegal form to purchase arms and ammunition by mail that allows police to compile an illegal register of firearms held by licence holders. Most have no problem purchasing more expensive lockups for their firearms when police demand the extra security in return for processing a licence application. Most have no problem with allowing contractors to record and photograph the contents of their safes to add to the illegal register.
So I expect that most will have no problem that the police have gone to their minister  with a request to have their illegal activities made Law. Most will welcome the additional restrictions on their sport as well as the warrantless searches of their properties proposed by the Law & Order committee as a condition of their license.
As can be seen from this Petition, it can't even attain 5000 signatures against illegal police policy measures.https://www.change.org/p/the-honoura...ot-the-problem

----------


## shift14

> It appears the Waiuku Pistol Club has a really bright Secretary......very ably supported by a lawful respectful Committee. There has been not a word of dissent from them.....!
> 
> This guy owns firearms.....maybe he should not be labled a "fit and proper person"........
> https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...-useful-idiot/


He was the President, and did some good work pulling the club back from the brink.
I think club rules dictated he couldn't do another term in that role, but is now the Secretary, but acts as pseudo President.....unfortunately he used his position to expound his personal views in the club news newsletter and is therefore seen as representing the views of the club members.
Personally I've come to dislike his sneering, condescending approach to others while on the range.

Now seen as a Toss Pot which is unfortunate.

B

----------


## Gibo

> It is fairly clear that the vast majority of licence holders have no problem with police usurping the power of parliament and making up the law to suit themselves. Most have no problem filling out an  illegal form to purchase arms and ammunition by mail that allows police to compile an illegal register of firearms held by licence holders. Most have no problem purchasing more expensive lockups for their firearms when police demand the extra security in return for processing a licence application. Most have no problem with allowing contractors to record and photograph the contents of their safes to add to the illegal register.
> So I expect that most will have no problem that the police have gone to their minister  with a request to have their illegal activities made Law. Most will welcome the additional restrictions on their sport as well as the warrantless searches of their properties proposed by the Law & Order committee as a condition of their license.
> As can be seen from this Petition, it can't even attain 5000 signatures against illegal police policy measures.https://www.change.org/p/the-honoura...ot-the-problem


Never seen it, as most wouldnt have.

----------


## gonetropo

the sooner politicians differentiate  the difference between law abiding FAL's users and crims the better. its election year so i encourage those who haven't to get off yer fat bums and start writing

----------


## Ryan

> I haven't been keeping up with his thread, but seeing what Cahill has been saying I'm going to take some time to write him a pretty firm letter.


  @Savage1

What did you say? Did you receive a response?

----------


## Ryan

...



> It looks like another A Cat Semi Auto has been added to the E Cat import list.
> 
> A dealer has been in touch with us about the new police policy that we highlighted in Saturdays post. This time the dealer was told he cant bring in A Cat, AK type firearms.
> 
> His AO informed him “Dealers can not stock a semi-auto that has potential to be converted to E”
> 
> This policy could be applied to all semi autos! Ruger 10/22’s, Berretta shotguns, you name it.
> 
> Are the police reclassifying all semi autos Paula Bennett? Just to remind you, the gun owning public slammed Chris Cahill over his attitude towards sportspeople who owned semi autos. Yet here we are with the police going ahead with a disruptive policy to prevent legitimate A cat sporting firearms into the country.
> ...

----------


## Ryan

It doesn't stop:




> Ron Mark – NZ First MP and Richard Prosser MP – New Zealand First List MP have posted about their disappointment of the Arms Officer not showing up at last weekends gun show.
> 
> An arms officer is required for the sale of endorsed firearms that occurs at these shows.
> 
> Its also a great opportunity for the Arms Officer to meet with the very people he represents.
> 
> What we are witnessing is the complete break down and dysfunction of Paula Bennett‘s arms office.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/RonMarkMP/post ... 9832912809

----------


## Beavis

I am applying for permits. See how I get on.

----------


## Sideshow

Year keep us  posted thanks Beavis. 

But either way you look at this it's not good, if this is what they are doing! 

Just goes to show they DO have a hidden agenda and they are now using it :Pissed Off:

----------


## Ryan

> I am applying for permits. See how I get on.


And then this... The plot thickens:

_FYI - Sent from AC Rusbatch today

Dear FCAF members,

You may have seen some social media commentary made over the weekend by FOUNZ members relating to the classification of MSSAs.

However, I can advise that this commentary is incorrect – Police has not changed its policy or approach regarding the classification of MSSAs.

In response, we will be providing the information below to the firearms community on our website and through other appropriate channels.

We would be grateful if you could please circulate this to your members.

Thank you


Mike Rusbatch
Assistant Commissioner: Response and Operations
Police National Headquarters | 180 Molesworth Street | PO Box 3017 | Wellington 6140 |
cid:image001.png@01D09399.1F756110

Police approach to MSSA classification remains unchanged

In response to recent information being circulated within the firearms community regarding the classification of A-category firearms – and in particular AR15 type semi-automatic firearms – Police confirms that the classification and rules regarding the importation of these weapons has not changed.

Specifically:

• People can still continue to apply to import A-category firearms as they always have – no special reasons are required. This classification and its interpretation by Police has not changed, despite what has been circulated through social media. 

• 28,000 A-category firearms were imported into New Zealand in 2016 and these will continue to be imported in 2017 under the same classification rules.

• There has been no re-classification of AR15 type semi-automatic weapons nor has Police made any proposal – an individual or a dealer can still continue to apply to import these weapons. These continue to be treated as an either an A-category or an E-category firearm depending on the individual specifications of the firearm.

• The Arms Act has always required importer to obtain a  permit to bring in “parts” of firearms to New Zealand and  a special reason is required to import MSSA parts.  To deliver on the intent of the Act  Police needs to consider whether the application relates to a part of a MSSA or part of an A category firearm.  Where it is possible that the part could be either for an A category or an E category firearm Police is required to  seek further clarification about the intended use of the part.  

• Police cannot change the classification of firearms by making an Order-in-Council.  Any such proposal would need to be approved by Cabinet and be signed by the Governor-General 

• Police continues to administer the Arms Act and remains committed to working with the firearms community to promote the safe use and management of firearms. Anyone with questions regarding Police’s approach to firearms licensing or management is encouraged to contact us directly or through the Firearms Community Advisory Forum.

• Police’s first priority remains the safe, secure and lawful use of firearms and effective administration of the Arms Act as part of our commitment to safer communities together._

----------


## Nickoli

Seems they have "Administration" confused with "Discrimination" - if the above statement is completely factual, we could all be excused for not believing it until the actions of the Police match their words...

----------


## Chilli_Dog

That sounds a lot like the response to the updated arms code, it was all of several minutes before the hard copies that haddnt been printed were being shown on here.... emails off to Gerry and Paula

----------


## systolic

> Seems they have "Administration" confused with "Discrimination" - if the above statement is completely factual, we could all be excused for not believing it until the actions of the Police match their words...


Surely it would make more sense not to believe all the hysterical shit posted about police reclassifying all AR15s without some proof other than what someone posted on Facebook?

----------


## Ryan

> Surely it would make more sense not to believe all the hysterical shit posted about police reclassifying all AR15s without some proof other than what someone posted on Facebook?


I tend to believe the dealers (whose livelihood depends on their dealing in firearms) that were approached by police and told this very thing:




> Fuck where do I start.
> 
> As a business I rely on a positive relationship with Police HQ. They administer the Arms Act. They control my business.
> 
> I have witnessed a lot of bullshit over the last 18 months from Police HQ. Implementation of policies that do everthing to hinder law abiding firearm owners. You will have seen a few of the antics published on FOUNZ. However I have ALWAYS played their game so that I could stay in business. I have gone beyond what I think any other dealer would do, to be seen as nothing but an honest and upstanding dealer.
> For example twice this year I have had parts that have come through customs that I didn't order. I asked the AO to come around and take them away for destruction. This was thousands of dollars worth of gear.
> So on Saturday why would I bite the hand that feeds me. Why would I take my version of events to FOUNZ?
> On Friday I was told by my AO that he could no longer issue import permits for A Category AR15s and A Cat AR15 receivers. That instead I need to apply for these as E Cat and provide a business case to convert them to A Cat on landing in NZ. Thinking of my business and my lively hood with alarm bells going off, I feebly agreed. In the meantime I rang the lawyer for advice. His recommendation was no don't do it. I quickly got back in touch with the Arms Officer and said no. I want these as A Cat only. He then resubmitted my permits as A Cat. I also told him I wanted a confirmation by the end of the day how they were going to treat my application.
> At the close of business I was told "Sorry but there will be no decision today - will keep you updated"
> ...


https://www.facebook.com/nzar15

So, the above combined with police's recent track record of releasing hard copies of their policy changes (at significant tax payer expense) and then suddenly performing an about turn on those policies, with the lamest excuse imaginable, their fabricated campaign with their media allies about the firearm crime "problem"... It's another in a series of events that does not cast their integrity in a positive light.

Or, if giving them the benefit of the doubt - it at perhaps shows the arms officer and POLHQ are not communicating effectively.

----------


## 300CALMAN

At the moment I am more likely to believe Farcebook than PHQ. Sad aye...

----------


## Nickoli

> Surely it would make more sense not to believe all the hysterical shit posted about police reclassifying all AR15s without some proof other than what someone posted on Facebook?


Re-read the post Trollboy: anything could be true with the current administration. I'm not ever going to believe everything I see on Faecesbook, nor am I going to take anything a Troll says seriously either.... especially when they chose to start a sentence with "surely"

----------


## Tommy

> Surely it would make more sense not to believe all the hysterical shit posted about police reclassifying all AR15s without some proof other than what someone posted on Facebook?


I dunno, I'd believe Ken over any AO these days, no problem, they're a pack of lying conniving cunts. Now, some random troll (#1003309) on the internet?

----------


## nzfubz

Ministers response:

Hon Paula Bennett
Minister of Police
14 June 2017
Media Statement
Government response to firearms select committee report
Police Minister Paula Bennett has today responded to the Law and Order Select Committee report on issues relating to the illegal possession of firearms.
The Select Committee’s terms of reference were to focus on how widespread firearms possession is amongst criminals – including gangs, how those people who don’t have a firearms licence come into possession of firearms and what changes, if any, would restrict the flow of firearms to criminals, gangs and people who don’t hold a licence.
“The committee made 20 recommendations. After careful consideration I’ve accepted seven, rejected 12, and recommended one proceed with changes,” Mrs Bennett says.
“We needed to strike the right balance between public safety and the rights of legal firearms owners. Although the report was well intended, I believe many of the recommendations would not decrease the flow of firearms to criminals and gangs but would unduly impact on legally licenced firearms users.
“I appointed two independent firearms experts to advise me. I’ve listened to their advice, advice from Police, read the recommendations from the select committee and I’ve taken on board feedback from the public.
“After careful consideration I have added two more recommendations to my response. One proposes the introduction of the power to suspend licences pending decision on revocation. This will give Police an alternative to cancelling a licence, for example in situations where someone has been charged with family violence, or where there are security issues that need to be resolved.
“I’m also proposing a Ministerial direction to the Police to require consultation with the firearms community when considering changes to the Arms Act and the interpretation of it.
“Nobody wants firearms getting into the hands of violent gang members but we also don’t want over the top rules and restrictions to be placed on hunters and shooters who manage their firearms responsibly.”
“My response to the report has been tabled in Parliament. We will now begin a policy process around the recommendations we are progressing which will involve consultation, looking at costs and any regulatory impacts before coming back to Cabinet for approval later this year,” Mrs Bennett says.
Summary of the Government Response
Recommendation Number
Summarised Recommendation
Government Response Summarised
Sale and supply of firearms and ammunition
1
A firearms licence required to possess ammunition
Reject
2
A dealer’s licence required to sell ammunition
Reject
3
Dealers required to keep records of ammunition sales
Reject
4
Registration process for websites facilitating trading in firearms, parts, or ammunition
Amend recommendation - Do not introduce registration but clarify ‘mail order’ process applies to online sales in Arms Amendment Bill
5
Permit to procure extended to cover all sales or transfers of firearms (i.e. include A category firearms)
Reject - but improve efficiency in current licensing and permitting processes.
Definition of military-style semi-automatics
6
Investigate the creation of a category of restricted semi-automatic rifle and shotgun
Reject 
Effectiveness of licensing, training, and registering firearms
7
Implement firearm prohibition orders
Accept - include in the Arms (Firearm Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill
8
Codify the ‘fit and proper’ criteria in the Arms Act
Reject
9
Implement a stand-down period after licence revocation
Accept - include a 12 month stand -own period in the Arms (Firearm Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill
10
Clarify that gang members or prospects must not be considered ‘fit and proper’ to possess firearms
Accept - include in the Arms (Firearm Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill
11
Require Police to record serial numbers of all firearms upon renewal of licence or inspection of premises
Reject – voluntary process to continue
Criminal offending with firearms
12
Review the penalties in the Arms Act
Accept - progress in Arms Amendment Bill
13
Treat dealer offending as aggravated at sentencing
Reject
14
Determine appropriate security standards for A category licences
Accept - Police/firearms community advisory forum already commenced this process
15
Secure storage confirmed before licence or endorsement received
Reject
16
Allow Police to enter premises to inspect security of A category firearms
Reject
17
Failure to comply with storage regulations to result in mandatory revocation
Reject - but note new suspension of licence
Reducing the number of grey firearms
18
Clarify and publicise the extent of amnesty provisions in the Arms Act 1983
Accept - to progress in Arms Amendment Bill
19
Police publicise amnesty provisions
Reject
20
Check that firearms brought in on visitors permit are exported or transferred legally
Accept (administrative)
Additional Government Recommendations
1
Provide the power to suspend licences
Include in the Arms (Firearm Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill
2
Police to improve its consultative processes with the firearms community
Propose to give a Ministerial Directive to this end

----------


## Gibo

I'm no expert but that seems quite reasonable? Can anyone call out any fish hooks?

----------


## Tommy

> I'm no expert but that seems quite reasonable? Can anyone call out any fish hooks?


That's a 10/10 result for us I reckon

----------


## Gibo

> That's a 10/10 result for us I reckon


 :Thumbsup:

----------


## nzfubz

I agree good result all things considered and how it could have gone.

----------


## Danger Mouse

The committee got a real slapping. Looks like the government is realizing the number of votes walking away. Now to give the nz police an equal slapping over their antics.

----------


## Pengy

:Thumbsup:

----------


## gadgetman

Yes, excellent result.

----------


## Ryan

https://www.policeassn.org.nz/newsro...-firearms-cont

The scaremongering continues...




> In one Police district alone, officers seized 525 firearms, and recorded 461 offences involving either breaches of the Arms Act or criminal use of a firearm in the last fiscal year, Mr Cahill said.


I'd be interested to know what number are air rifles or toys. Also glaringly conspicuous by its absence in this press release is the word "semi-automatic".

----------


## Danger Mouse

> https://www.policeassn.org.nz/newsro...-firearms-cont
> 
> The scaremongering continues...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be interested to know what number are air rifles or toys.


Id be more interested to know how the lying bullshit artist cahill, thinks that placing restrictions on the law abiding will magically stop criminals form having firearms.

We know he just makes shit up, wouldnt surprise me if those numbers were too.

----------


## Ryan

> Id be more interested to know how the lying bullshit artist cahill, thinks that placing restrictions on the law abiding will magically stop criminals form having firearms.


Well that part's easy. He doesn't have to because crime reduction is not the purpose of this whole palava - it's only being window dressed as such. It's simply about control. Meth is a far more serious problem in this country and causes infinitely more societal and structural damage than illegal firearms, the latter tending to be readily associated with the former. 

*#priorities.*

----------


## Sasquatch

From the Police Association's media release: _“The Minister’s concern about ‘over the top’ rules and restrictions on hunters and shooters ignores the reality that New Zealand is awash with firearms and the majority of them are stolen,” he said._

Mr Cahill should be freaking fired for what is an absurd blatant lie. Majority of firearms are stolen!? Wtf man.

And as for calling us out saying: _“Minister Bennett appears to have bowed to the pressure of the gun lobby which we believe  represents fewer than 10,000 of the 240,000 licensed gun owners._

*Bullshit* You wish it was that low but I bet you my socks it is much, much higher then _you_ have fabricated you absolute fruitcake.

----------


## Koshogi

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/l...nz-being-shot/

I thought they didn't want a register? Only to 'record' the details upon licence renewal or security inspection. ...




> "To be honest..."


 

 I think Chris Cahill may have a mental condition that causes him to compulsively lie. He should ensure he doesn't handle any firearms, as he shouldn't be deemed a 'Fit and proper person '. 

Apparently, those of us who submitted objections to the Select Committee report are the NRA style gun lobby, and not 'good gun owners'.

----------


## JWB

> Yep, serious kudos to Hon. Paula Bennet - that is actually an exceptional bit of work from a MP and we should really now be flicking through nice fluffy emails to her office!


I disagree. This is not a good result. Here is a reply I sent to the minister today setting out my immediate objections.

"The minister keeps referring to "Arms (Firearm Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill". This I know nothing about.
This report is a disaster for firearms owners, as it legitimises current illegal activities inflicted on us by police. Increases the potential for further persecution, while giving the public a sense of relief that, "well, that wasn't so bad after all".
The mail-order process doesn't need clarification. It is clearly set out in the legislation. The minister needed to instruct police to obey the law.
A stand-down period after licence revocation. Where the hell is that going? Given that most licence revocations are the result of acrimonious relationships or police punishment for a citizen insisting that police follow the law, will this be used to further intimidate the licence holder, should they show any semblance of developing a spine?
Recording of serial numbers- voluntary process to continue. There is no voluntary process. There is only the police assembling a dysfunctional registry to condition the public to accepting registration. Where is the secure storage for this illegal process and why are public funds supporting it.
Determine appropriate security standards for A licences. That is just weasel words for increasing the cost to licence holders  though increased security costs. Something the police are doing already through illegal policy and bullying. The legislation is quite clear as to the security requirements to deter children and opportunist thieves.
Licence suspension  Just another tool for the thugs and bullies to use against the dissenters to their vision of a police state. No proof required, just the word of the blue thug.
Require the police to consult with the firearms community! How do you do that, when there is no body that represents licence holders. FCAF? how well does that work out? There is a power imbalance. the police hold all the cards. Dissent is ignored and only agreement is allowed.
Nowhere in this report is there a rollback of the intrusive and  obscene conditions imposed upon licence holders by the 1983 act and it's amendments. The imposition of the need to prove ones innocence goes against the basis of our Westminster justice concept of innocent until proven guilty. The arms act  in itself is a direct affront to our justice system and society.
Nothing the minister is proposing will address criminal offending with firearms, or criminals acquiring firearms. The only thing that will achieve that, is for police to get back to catching burglars, instead of persecuting the victims of burglary. A return to the principles of policing as devised by Robert Peel might be in order as the police clearly lack direction."

----------


## Steve123

> I disagree. This is not a good result. Here is a reply I sent to the minister today setting out my immediate objections.
> 
> "The minister keeps referring to "Arms (Firearm Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill". This I know nothing about.
> This report is a disaster for firearms owners, as it legitimises current illegal activities inflicted on us by police. Increases the potential for further persecution, while giving the public a sense of relief that, "well, that wasn't so bad after all".
> The mail-order process doesn't need clarification. It is clearly set out in the legislation. The minister needed to instruct police to obey the law.
> A stand-down period after licence revocation. Where the hell is that going? Given that most licence revocations are the result of acrimonious relationships or police punishment for a citizen insisting that police follow the law, will this be used to further intimidate the licence holder, should they show any semblance of developing a spine?
> Recording of serial numbers- voluntary process to continue. There is no voluntary process. There is only the police assembling a dysfunctional registry to condition the public to accepting registration. Where is the secure storage for this illegal process and why are public funds supporting it.
> Determine appropriate security standards for A licences. That is just weasel words for increasing the cost to licence holders  though increased security costs. Something the police are doing already through illegal policy and bullying. The legislation is quite clear as to the security requirements to deter children and opportunist thieves.
> Licence suspension  Just another tool for the thugs and bullies to use against the dissenters to their vision of a police state. No proof required, just the word of the blue thug.
> ...


Too many new laws are being passed that make the citizen prove innocence. Especially H&S prosecutions. And has any one challenged the 4 km/hr holiday tolerance? Arn't speedo's only required to be accurate to 10%?

----------


## GravelBen

> And has any one challenged the 4 km/hr holiday tolerance? Arn't speedo's only required to be accurate to 10%?


Speedos are allowed to over-read by up to 10% but not under-read IIRC. Not sure what the accuracy spec of the police radar/laser units is though. 

To be honest the 4km/hr tolerance has failed to achieve anything for the road toll because its just another case of stricter enforcement on easy targets who aren't the problem, to make bureaucrats look like they're doing something without having to deal with the more difficult real issue (which is mostly down to poor driver training in that case).

Have you noticed that when the road toll is down the spin is "the policy is working" and when the road toll is up the spin is "people aren't obeying our policy well enough". Head I win, tails you lose!

----------


## Steve123

> Speedos are allowed to over-read by up to 10% but not under-read IIRC. Not sure what the accuracy spec of the police radar/laser units is though. 
> 
> To be honest the 4km/hr tolerance has failed to achieve anything for the road toll because its just another case of stricter enforcement on easy targets who aren't the problem, to make bureaucrats look like they're doing something without having to deal with the more difficult real issue (which is mostly down to poor driver training in that case).
> 
> Have you noticed that when the road toll is down the spin is "the policy is working" and when the road toll is up the spin is "people aren't obeying our policy well enough". Head I win, tails you lose!


I agree. There's some shocking driving in Auckland but so long as your not speeding you can get away with it.

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

----------


## 6x47

Was pissed off the other day- received a camera van fine for doing an outrageous 56km/hr!!  
You'll NEVER convince me this is anything but revenue gathering.

----------


## zimmer

> Speedos are allowed to over-read by up to 10% but not under-read IIRC.


And bloody Subaru decided in the mistaken belief of assisting road safety worldwide,  purposely calibrate their speedos to read over grrrr.

----------


## gadgetman

> Was pissed off the other day- received a camera van fine for doing an outrageous 56km/hr!!  
> You'll NEVER convince me this is anything but revenue gathering.


You are quite correct. If it was a safety thing they would be parked where traffic is held up by slow drivers. Instead they are waiting in the few straight stretches where there is finally a place to pass, and the slow driver speeds up.

----------


## MaW

> https://www.policeassn.org.nz/newsro...-firearms-cont
> 
> The scaremongering continues...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be interested to know what number are air rifles or toys. Also glaringly conspicuous by its absence in this press release is the word "semi-automatic".


   Yep, one said something like  'an air rifle and a snub nosed pistol was stolen from a car'.   That sings of airsoft all day long..

----------


## Ryan

> Yep, one said something like  'an air rifle and a snub nosed pistol was stolen from a car'.   That sings of airsoft all day long..


"stubb nosed pistol" actually, whatever that is.

----------


## Danger Mouse

> You are quite correct. If it was a safety thing they would be parked where traffic is held up by slow drivers. Instead they are waiting in the few straight stretches where there is finally a place to pass, and the slow driver speeds up.


Its the same as targeting crims instead of license holders. Too much hard work.

----------


## Sasquatch

> "stubb nosed pistol" actually, whatever that is.


Probably was a cap gun from the $2 shop.

----------


## Sylvester

> "stubb nosed pistol" actually, whatever that is.

----------


## Pengy

[QUOTE=6x47;604977]Was pissed off the other day

I got one of those recently too. 58 in non residential 50 zone

----------


## Sasquatch

[QUOTE=Pengy;605028]


> Was pissed off the other day
> 
> I got one of those recently too. 58 in non residential 50 zone


 @Pengy The officer was low on their quota for the month.

----------


## GravelBen

> The officer was low on their quota for the month.


Oh but they said they don't have quotas remember...









...its "performance targets" now.

----------


## oraki

> Oh but they said they don't have quotas remember...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


.......or contacts with public......

----------


## 300CALMAN

> From the Police Association's media release: _The Ministers concern about over the top rules and restrictions on hunters and shooters ignores the reality that New Zealand is awash with firearms and the majority of them are stolen, he said._
> 
> Mr Cahill should be freaking fired for what is an absurd blatant lie. Majority of firearms are stolen!? Wtf man.
> 
> And as for calling us out saying: _Minister Bennett appears to have bowed to the pressure of the gun lobby which we believe  represents fewer than 10,000 of the 240,000 licensed gun owners._
> 
> *Bullshit* You wish it was that low but I bet you my socks it is much, much higher then _you_ have fabricated you absolute fruitcake.


I think he just got fired from the firearms group today?

----------


## stug

Not Cahill, Scahill. Cahill as president of Police Association (Police Union) is not a Police Officer anymore. 
Firearms guy was Chris Scahill.

----------


## Koshogi

The NZ Police Association, under the control of ardent anti gunner and bender of the truth, Chris Cahill, has launched their counter attack to the Governments response to the Select Committee. In their recently published Police Association Election Policy Document, he makes it very clear that he still wants registration and a crack down on firearm owners. You will note that almost all of his policy targets licenced owners, and not the actual criminals.

_1.2 Firearms
The Police Association believes the government policy on firearms should:

» Move quickly to introduce the required law changes in order to implement the recommendations of the Law and Order Select Committee Inquiry into issues relating to the illegal possession of firearms.

» Introduce a firearms sale registration programme that requires the seller to notify Police of the certifiable details of the purchaser of all firearms.

» Introduce a firearms register which requires all firearms licence holders to list all firearms in their possession and advise Police of any purchases of new firearms.

» Stop any form of online sales of firearms and ammunition.

» Ensure legislation requires public safety to be the chief consideration of courts when adjudicating on firearm licensing issues.


1.2 Firearms
Possibly the most concerning issue facing policing in New Zealand in 2017 is the increasing availability of firearms to criminals, especially gang members. The Association receives almost daily reports from its members of officers being confronted
by offenders with firearms. There are also regular reports of gang affiliates located in possession of firearms, ranging from handguns to military style semi-automatic (MSSA) rifles. It is now commonplace to locate firearms when executing search warrants for methamphetamine.

This increasing availability of firearms to gang members, combined with the rising threat of inter-gang violence in an ongoing turf war for drug markets, poses a grave risk to public safety. Inter-gang conflict can result in innocent members of the public being caught in the crossfire. The tragic death of Jhia Te Tua in Whanganui in 2007 should not be forgotten. Stricter controls on the sale, supply and registration of firearms are required if New Zealand is to halt the flow of illegal firearms into the hands of criminals.

Customs figures show 40,000 firearms were imported into New Zealand in 2016 alone. While this includes soft airguns, it demonstrates that the legitimate supply of firearms is increasing at an alarming rate. Given there are only 242,000 licensed firearms holders in the country, and the vast majority of them will not have bought new firearms during this period, the Association is concerned about where many of these firearms end up._

In the reference for his statement of 40,000 firearms, he lists this:
_NZ Herald OIA request NZ Customs (13/02/17) revealed 31 muzzle-loading firearms, 5461 shotguns, 15,836 rifles and 18,480 air-guns imported in 2016, and 94 firearms seized by Customs during that year._

So only 21,328 actual firearms were imported. Are dealers not allowed to import stock for sale?

_Of 178 countries surveyed in the Geneva-based Small Arms Survey, New Zealand is 22nd in the world in gun ownership. We have an average of 22.6 firearms per 100 people, and close to one million civilian-owned firearms. However, the reality is that there is no accurate record of the stockpile of firearms in New Zealand at any given time. Nor is there an accurate record of the number of gun thefts and burglaries which are the easiest ways for criminals to access firearms._ 

That sounds like an NZ Police issue, not a legislative issue.

 [I]While the licensing procedures for owning pistols and MSSAs in New Zealand is more rigorous than that for other categories of firearms, the v*ariety of firearms New Zealanders can access is out of touch with similar jurisdictions such as Australia and the United Kingdom*. The British public lost the right to own pistols following the 1996 Dunblane School massacre, and Australians forfeited their right to MSSAs after the Port Arthur massacre in the same year.

The Association wants New Zealanders to be cognisant of the risks associated with *the existence of weapons such as non-sports use handguns and MSSAs in our communities.* We have not been immune to lone wolf shootings, and we have watched in horror as terrorist threats are realised in many parts of the world. We believe the trade-off for New Zealanders having access to these powerful weapons should be better registration, and tracking of ownership and sales of firearms.

The Association believes the Law and Order Select Committee Inquiry into issues relating to the illegal possession of firearms has missed a serious opportunity to tighten up on the tens of thousands of firearms pouring into the country every year. We would have liked the committee to ask *why New Zealanders need MSSAs and non-sports use handguns*, and recommend much tighter controls over these weapons.

There are, however, a number of positives from the Inquiry which may mean at least the whereabouts of many firearms will soon be tracked. *Amongst these is a recommended extension of the permit to procure a firearm to, in future, cover the sale or transfer of all firearms.*
Maybe he can't read very well...


_Over time this will allow Police to build a database of firearms possessed by individuals._

Is this supported by law Chris Cahill? 

_The Association also applauds the tough stance recommended with respect to gangs, and the call for the Government to categorise gang members and prospects as not fit and proper persons to possess firearms._



Make no mistake, this fight is not over. Particularly while Chris Cahill remains at the helm of the NZ Police Association, and continues to spread his campaign of misinformation and fear mongering.

----------


## Ryan

You bet. 

They do not want the public to have firearms. Lies, deception, scare mongering, ultra vires behaviour, double standards - whatever it takes - they will stop at _nothing_ until the population possesses firearms that only _they_ deem appropriate. Interesting that he refers to the "rights" of firearm owners in the UK and Australia. 

Rights aren't rights if someone can just take them away.

----------


## Sasquatch

Coincidentally I watched this earlier today, gun-control is what they talk about when _they_ don't want to talk about the truth

----------


## PERRISCICABA

> Coincidentally I watched this earlier today, gun-control is what they talk about when _they_ don't want to talk about the truth


The truth link actually don't work when in the page

----------


## Ryan

Obviously not directly applicable to NZ but there a few "takeaways" from it.

----------


## Sasquatch

Nice, a very well balanced informative video that didn't have to rely on "anecdotal" evidence and scaremongering to portray it's message. If only the _opposition_  could achieve this.

----------


## Koshogi

"As the Minister of Police, you're responsible for the Arms Act 1983 and we're responsible for administering and enforcing it," Bush said.

"*The act is overdue for amendment*.

"The courts have identified gaps and the need for clarification of drafting."

Bush said the previous government "signalled its intention to deal with these issues" through two pieces of legislation - the Arms Amendment Bill and an Arms (Firearms Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill.

"Criminal activity, combined with changing technology and marketing, have highlighted additional gaps in the legislation which, when exploited, have safety implications," Bush said.

"These gaps also present administrative challenges and *we have to rely on the overall purpose of the act to inform our decisions in the absence of explicit legislation.*

The previous Minister of Police agreed to introduce firearms prohibition orders (FPOs) for a small group of the most serous and violent offenders.

Should you wish to continue with FPOs, this could be progressed through a standalone amendment to the Arms Act 1983 or as part of a more comprehensive Arms Amendment Bill."

Briefings: Police urge new minister to make 'key' decisions on firearms - NZ Herald

----------


## Koshogi



----------


## Koshogi

Your 'open and fair' police. No secrets here....

----------


## Ryan

Here we go again. It just doesn't stop.

----------


## Sasquatch

*Police briefing to incoming Minister of Police*

_"This means we need to balance reasonable compliance duties on law abiding firearms users, with safeguards that protect New Zealanders from illegal firearm possession and criminal use."_

How would "reasonable" compliance duties on law-abiding fit and proper persons keep New Zealanders safe? Because so far they're anything _but_ reasonable. I would of thought harsher penalties for criminal firearm offending might be a start.

Oh and this bit:

"_As the Minister of Police, you're responsible for the Arms Act 1983 and we're_ responsible for administering and enforcing it."

Uhhh... Your're not doing a very good job the past 18 months NZ Police? - Infact, your "administering" of the act has been a total abolishment.

Finally:

_"Criminal activity combined with changing technology and marketing have highlighted additional gaps in the legislation which, when exploited, have public safety implications."_

The only people being exploited is us, law-abiding fit & proper persons - Read between the lines, changing technology and marketing?? I'm sure bringing down the evolution of firearm technology is going to keep us all safe.

----------


## JWB

> "As the Minister of Police, you're responsible for the Arms Act 1983 and we're responsible for administering and enforcing it," Bush said.
> 
> "*The act is overdue for amendment*.
> 
> "The courts have identified gaps and the need for clarification of drafting."
> 
> Bush said the previous government "signalled its intention to deal with these issues" through two pieces of legislation - the Arms Amendment Bill and an Arms (Firearms Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill.
> 
> "Criminal activity, combined with changing technology and marketing, have highlighted additional gaps in the legislation which, when exploited, have safety implications," Bush said.
> ...


This mans appointment shows the depth of contempt shown by parliament for the people of NZ. This is the man who said that Bruce Hutton was a "Man of integrity beyond reproach". The message to his troops is that any means justifies the end that results in a successful prosecution. Sacking should have been the result, yet he was rewarded with the post of commissioner of police and a 1/2 million dollar salary.

----------


## Sideshow

Good to see that the official information act there in black? ........ :Wtfsmilie:  its redacte  :XD:

----------


## 300CALMAN

> Here we go again. It just doesn't stop.


 :X X:  over it...

----------


## 300CALMAN

> 


Excellent speech, unfortunately I think a lot of kiwis also take this snobbish contempt for Americans.

----------


## Ryan

Unsubstantiated figures, again... just like their "policies" which they interpret and enforce as law. It's really the gift that keeps on giving - bullshit artistry at tax payer's expense.

----------


## Steve123

> Attachment 79615
> 
> Unsubstantiated figures, again... just like their "policies" which they interpret and enforce as law. It's really the gift that keeps on giving - bullshit artistry at tax payer's expense.


Maybe Cahill's members should do their job. Start solving burglaries, make getting caught a certainty, lobby for deterrent sentences.
Police's job should be to harrass criminals and help the law abiding not the other way round.

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk

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## 300CALMAN

> Maybe Cahill's members should do their job. Start solving burglaries, make getting caught a certainty, lobby for deterrent sentences.
> Police's job should be to harrass criminals and help the law abiding not the other way round.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk


Well said. If they want to influence the law why not to make it tougher on the bad guy? Some of the recent sentences for unlawful possession have frankly been a joke.

----------


## systolic

> Attachment 79615
> 
> Unsubstantiated figures, again... just like their "policies" which they interpret and enforce as law. It's really the gift that keeps on giving - bullshit artistry at tax payer's expense.


Umm... Looking _carefully_ at what it written, that article appears to be written by the police _association_ (union) not the police. So how the hell does a union interpret and enforce their policies as law like you say?

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## Ryan

> Umm... Looking _carefully_ at what it written, that article appears to be written by the police _association_ (union) not the police. So how the hell does a union interpret and enforce their policies as law like you say?

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## Sasquatch

> Umm... Looking _carefully_ at what it written, that article appears to be written by the police _association_ (union) not the police. So how the hell does a union interpret and enforce their policies as law like you say?


Is that some bad grammar I can see systolic?? Gee wiz, how ironic.

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## kotuku

police association -you old son are humanising an organisation-even with modern day technology noone else has acheived that yet from memory.you obviously mean this opinion was formulated by a member/members of said union.
no matter what or who it is still a simplistic repulsive piece of written orartory

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## Ryan

> Our rights as firearm owners are under attack. The media, the Police Association and others are having a concerted effort to destroy the firearms culture of New Zealand.  They are lying and deceiving politicians and the public. *Now is the time to act.*
> 
> Write to the media. Write to your local representative, write to the Police Minister, write to the Prime Minister. Let them know,* no more.* *Now is the time to act.*
> 
> Call the lies out. Call the deception out. *Now is the time to act.*
> 
> This is my response to the Select Committee report, use it or write your own. 
> *Response to the Law and Order Select Committee Report: 
> Inquiry into issues relating to the illegal possession of firearms in New Zealand*
> ...


A long time since this was posted. How much has changed since then? Not a lot on the burglary front, certainly.

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## Finnwolf

The number of people being shot and illegal firearms being recovered have escalated a ‘whole heap’ (technical measurement!) since then, almost every week and at times more frequently.

I’d love to see a graph showing the proliferation of shootings (fatal or otherwise) since 2017.

And another graph depicting shootings by lfo vs unlicensed shooters.

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## 35whelen

The UNs been looking for ways to stop Globally. Civilian ownership of firearms for years.... It's all documented on the United Nations Office for Disarmament Affairs. website  https://www.un.org/disarmament/strategy/

Cut and paste from a 1996 paper... and its Link below....
                                                                                  Whats happening "now" is the result of years of studies, meetings and planning...... 
The plan is already in place, The United Nations won't capitulate, We as civilians never get to Vote for  the UN and yet it gets too decide and implement the Rules that structure our society....? Make of it what you will.... No one man will ever defeat let alone escape their Charter! Their reason for it is that it will give a safer kinder society and will help save the planet..... Any hoot there it is in Black and white for what it's worth?

100.The main objective of the ad hoc expert group meeting will be to review the replies to the questionnaire andto prepare a substantive report on patterns and dynamics of firearms regulation, including recommendations forproject follow-up.  As planned by the advisory group at its meeting, consideration will be given to including in theglobal report on crime and justice a summary of the results of the survey.  Finally, subject to the availability ofextrabudgetary funds, an electronic database with the results of the survey on firearms regulation will be established,to be made available via the United Nations Crime and Justice Information Network.  The ad hoc expert groupmeeting  on  the  gathering  and  analysis  of  information  on  firearms  regulation  will  meet  at  Vienna  from  9  to 11 December 1996.

file:///C:/Users/User/AppData/Local/Temp/E-CN.15-1996-14.pdf

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## Finnwolf

> The UNs been looking for ways to stop Globally. Civilian ownership of firearms for years.... It's all documented on the United Nations Office for Disarmament Affairs. website  https://www.un.org/disarmament/strategy/
> 
> Cut and paste from a 1996 paper... and its Link below....
>                                                                                   Whats happening "now" is the result of years of studies, meetings and planning...... 
> The plan is already in place, The United Nations won't capitulate, We as civilians never get to Vote for  the UN and yet it gets too decide and implement the Rules that structure our society....? Make of it what you will.... No one man will ever defeat let alone escape their Charter! Their reason for it is that it will give a safer kinder society and will help save the planet..... Any hoot there it is in Black and white for what it's worth?
> 
> 100.The main objective of the ad hoc expert group meeting will be to review the replies to the questionnaire andto prepare a substantive report on patterns and dynamics of firearms regulation, including recommendations forproject follow-up.  As planned by the advisory group at its meeting, consideration will be given to including in theglobal report on crime and justice a summary of the results of the survey.  Finally, subject to the availability ofextrabudgetary funds, an electronic database with the results of the survey on firearms regulation will be established,to be made available via the United Nations Crime and Justice Information Network.  The ad hoc expert groupmeeting  on  the  gathering  and  analysis  of  information  on  firearms  regulation  will  meet  at  Vienna  from  9  to 11 December 1996.
> 
> file:///C:/Users/User/AppData/Local/Temp/E-CN.15-1996-14.pdf


A sad state of affairs......

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## 35whelen

I  don't think it's sad..... It's just the progression of the UNs plan.... I see "it" as a Group of semi like minded Nations that, "Just as a Farmer has to manage live stock". The UN member nations for whatever reason or reasons feels the need to be in control of Humans living on their land behind their nations fences...... You see a supermarket, I see a Human Feedlot? A mortgage as a property investment or 30yrs financial incarceration ?   I won't go on about it! It's just what I've seen happening in the world, traveling and working around the world. Mali West Africa was an eye opener..... UN planes jamming the International Airport UN soldiers everywhere...I left that job after 8mths.. Looked like "The Colonization wing" of the western worlds group of nations...I felt that I was part of the problem.. Nothing I say or do can or will ever change their will to proceed. Just my observations over time. Make your own minds up about it. I'll shut ma "Cake hole" now before I get pidgin holed and labeled as an over thinking, Intellectual risk to their Volcanic smothering creep," UNs progress"....... Bad feelings anyone???
Remember We're all British Subjects!

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