# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Un safety habits taught at Gun City.

## 257weatherby

Walked into Gun City this arvo, I don't shop there except for really good specials but was going past after going to a job nearby.

At the "gunsmithing" counter was a newby having his new rifle prepped for him while he got the sell speel about the cleaning gear and other accesseries he needed. Was appalled to have the supposed professional hand mr newby, a rifle with the bolt in and closed, and tell him to have a look, which he did by pointing it at me, with his finger in the trigger well ..........

I had a word about safe habits, but it was shrugged off with" he was just trying to get the eye relief sorted".

So, the gunshop "pro" believes it is ok to point a rifle around, with the bolt in and closed,and he teaches the newby it is ok to do that.

As my verbal approach was shrugged off, I have sent them an email pointing out unsafe actions that become the habit is ummm, wrong.

In my email, I did tell them I will wander into their store tomorrow with my rifle, bolt in and closed, and will wander around the store looking around through my scope, I await the response with trepidation....... (not)

Am I, in the estemed evaluation of the forum members, being a little precious, perhaps my pretty little knickers a little tight today?, Or in fact, should good firearm safety habits be practiced at all time irespection of situation ?

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## chrome

Well i got taught to treat every firearm as loaded so that tells me not to point it at anyone EVER!


Sent from the swamp

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## Gibo

You should have cracked them both  :Grin:

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## SiB

Ask gun shitty to explain how bolt in assists establish eye relief w a scope. There must some obscure science we don't know

To be fair it may well have been a completely genuine oversight and shop person was simply less than gracious. 

It does say treat every firearm as loaded in the police hand book so you were justified in raising ur concerns in my view

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## Dundee

Good on you 257 for having a go at them but maybe you should of left the second to last paragraph out,otherwise you are just as bad even though it was probably just a statement.

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## greghud

i am not going to get into the discussion other than to say if i had seen that done i would have sent the "pro" off to empty the bins whilst i finished fitting the gun to the customer.....
greg

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## Neckshot

You didn't really send
Them that Email did you???.you just wrote a big speil on firearm safety gone wrong and then sent them that email.you couldn't have?
I'm pretty sure almost every one on this forum knows about rifle safety and I don't think it needs to be constantly wanked on about.I do believe you were right to verbally say something but the rest is bullshit IMO. I will take it all back if you didn't send that email though 

bloody shit phone

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## Rushy

Entirely appropriate to have challenged the unsafe activity. The email content is dumb.

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## outdoorlad

Gunshops should be setting a good example.

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## Koshogi

That's pretty poor.

I was in a gunshop in Canada in the early 90's having a browse.  Turned around and one of the staff was pointing a pistol at my head. Then he pulled the trigger.  Bang! Thankfully it was a blank pistol. Was not impressed to say the least. 

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

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## AzumitH

> That's pretty poor.
> 
> I was in a gunshop in Canada in the early 90's having a browse.  Turned around and one of the staff was pointing a pistol at my head. Then he pulled the trigger.  Bang! Thankfully it was a blank pistol. Was not impressed to say the least. 
> 
> Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk


At least being Canadian his apology would have been well rehearsed and heartfelt.

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## veitnamcam

> That's pretty poor.
> 
> I was in a gunshop in Canada in the early 90's having a browse.  Turned around and one of the staff was pointing a pistol at my head. Then he pulled the trigger.  Bang! Thankfully it was a blank pistol. Was not impressed to say the least. 
> 
> Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk



Was said pistol forcibly applied to an orifice?

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## Dundee

> Was said pistol forcibly applied to an orifice?


Speak the correct language VC? :Sad:

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## 257weatherby

> You didn't really send
> Them that Email did you???.you just wrote a big speil on firearm safety gone wrong and then sent them that email.you couldn't have?
> I'm pretty sure almost every one on this forum knows about rifle safety and I don't think it needs to be constantly wanked on about.I do believe you were right to verbally say something but the rest is bullshit IMO. I will take it all back if you didn't send that email though 
> 
> bloody shit phone


Ever heard of being facetious to underscore a point?. Quite pissed I had a rifle POINTED at me with the bolt in and closed, worse in the hands of the clueless.

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## veitnamcam

> Speak the correct language VC?


"owe awl yu shulda shoved it up his arse bro"

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## Kscott

Yeah pretty shit behaviour to have someone point a rifle at you, and stupid for the shop assistant / gunsmith to allow it to happen.

If people in GC think dumb behaviour is ok, then we'll be reading about dumb behaviour on the newspapers with people shooting each other, sign posts, the odd teacher, and so on.

Next time ask them to go out on the street and give it a try  :Thumbsup:

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## Husky1600

One of the golden rules of firearm safety - always point your firearm in a safe direction! When I'm dealing with newbies etc I also tell them to never ever point your firearm at something you aint gonna shoot, and if you point it at me I will take it off you, take out the bolt and break the bloody thing around the nearest tree! And then never hunt with them again. 
This so called "pro" and newbie rifle owner were both way out of line and you were right in pulling them up on it. I would suggest you now let your wallet do the talking and not spend any more money in said shop.

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## veitnamcam

It would have got the point across if you theatricaly dived behind the nearest display and accidently knocked it all over in the process  :Wink:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin: 

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## peril 787b

In two visits to gun city auckland, buying 3 rifles, the two bolt actions were attempted to be handed across the counter with mags in and bolts closed. They also refitted them to the rifles once purchased. I told them in no uncertain or easily misconstrued terms that I would not accept them in that state. The dumbfounded looks I received back confirmed their stupidity and complete lack of knowledge regarding gun safety. The second visit to purchase a semi auto, the action was never cycled to show it was empty and the mag was put in the rifle before they put it into the gun bag. Again saying "I'm not taking that" was met with a confused look. It's not that hard to train a monkey, surely there is some gun safety taught to a gun shop's staff?

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## BRADS

As bad as this meat head :Have A Nice Day: 
Despite what he says its obvious someone is taking the picture.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hunt...-744066868.htm

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## bas

Back when Guncity had a store in Greenlane (cnr Greenlane west and Great South Road) there was an old style 50c sized hole in the ceiling. What had happened was that the Cormwall Park ranger was in the shop trying out a pump action shotgun, he'd managed to get a round up the spout but couldn't work the slid back. So he figured there must be a trick to it with the trigger and gave that a wiggle.....

Fortunately he was pointing the gun in a safe direction.

Mind you mistakes are also made by people who should know better. One experienced small bore shooter crapped her pants when she leaned in through the car window to pick up her rifle and it went off while the barrel was pointed in her direction!

These serve as reminders to always be vigilant!

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## 257weatherby

> It would have got the point across if you theatricaly dived behind the nearest display and accidently knocked it all over in the process 
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


And at the top of my lungs with "Contact front!!!!!!" I like good theater

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## kotuku

ages ago had the same experience in CHCH shop with one guy allegedly sighting in a scope.as i sidled past I quietly enquired if he thought i was of trophy class and possibly edible.one very apologetic and embarrassed staff member.

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## Banana

> In two visits to gun city auckland, buying 3 rifles, the two bolt actions were attempted to be handed across the counter with mags in and bolts closed. *They also refitted them to the rifles once purchased*. I told them in no uncertain or easily misconstrued terms that I would not accept them in that state.


So the bolt and mag were removed and checked?  What was your problem?

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## v1025566

> Walked into Gun City this arvo, I don't shop there except for really good specials but was going past after going to a job nearby.
> 
> At the "gunsmithing" counter was a newby having his new rifle prepped for him while he got the sell speel about the cleaning gear and other accesseries he needed. Was appalled to have the supposed professional hand mr newby, a rifle with the bolt in and closed, and tell him to have a look, which he did by pointing it at me, with his finger in the trigger well ..........
> 
> I had a word about safe habits, but it was shrugged off with" he was just trying to get the eye relief sorted".
> 
> So, the gunshop "pro" believes it is ok to point a rifle around, with the bolt in and closed,and he teaches the newby it is ok to do that.
> 
> As my verbal approach was shrugged off, I have sent them an email pointing out unsafe actions that become the habit is ummm, wrong.
> ...


I would be pissed about having it pointed at me, couldn't give a shit about the bolt and mag being in.

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## Trevs

Happens in most gun shops, I was in Sportsway Gunshed when they had a shop (now just an online site) when someone was trying out a handgun that was pointed my way... man I ducked for cover, they apologised but still they should know better.

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## v1025566

> Happens in most gun shops, I was in Sportsway Gunshed when they had a shop (now just an online site) when someone was trying out a handgun that was pointed my way... man I ducked for cover, they apologised but still they should know better.


did they take aim at you or did casually stroll into their arc?

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## Trevs

> did they take aim at you or did casually stroll into their arc?


I would say that I might of casually stroll into their arc but I was looking the other way at the time. But when I turned my head there it was pointing towards me.

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## peril 787b

> So the bolt and mag were removed and checked?  What was your problem?


My problem there is THAT IT'S ILLEGAL TO CARRY A FIREARM IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR A VEHICLE WITH THE MAG AND/OR BOLT IN PLACE. Don't you know your firearm regulations?

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## Tahr

Have your say. Then its over. We shouldn’t get too precious. I’m pretty damned sick of seeing hunting pics of rifles on half cock leaning against trees or draped over animals pointing all over the place. What the hell is that about? 

We need to clean our own act up a bit too. Remember the four fingers pointing at us, when we point one at Gun City or whoever. Our rifles are far more likely to be loaded than that one in a shop.

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## v1025566

> My problem there is THAT IT'S ILLEGAL TO CARRY A FIREARM IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR A VEHICLE WITH THE MAG AND/OR BOLT IN PLACE. Don't you know your firearm regulations?


isn't the bush a public place?

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## Banana

> My problem there is THAT IT'S ILLEGAL TO CARRY A FIREARM IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR A VEHICLE WITH THE MAG AND/OR BOLT IN PLACE. Don't you know your firearm regulations?


Obviously not.  Could you direct me to the part of the Arms Regulations that states this?

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## v1025566

> My problem there is THAT IT'S ILLEGAL TO CARRY A FIREARM IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR A VEHICLE WITH THE MAG AND/OR BOLT IN PLACE. Don't you know your firearm regulations?

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## ebf

Peril, I suspect you are thinking of the section in the land transport act or regs that prohibits loaded firearms in vehicles, it is worded in a way that also includes loaded magazines even if they are not in the firearm.

Not aware of any part of the firearms act or regs that says you can not have a bolt or mag in a firearm in a public place or vehicle.

The arms code (a police document, not actual law) may have this as a safety recommendation, and several rifle ranges discourage members from arriving on the range with a firearm in that state.

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## Banana

> My problem there is THAT IT'S ILLEGAL TO CARRY A FIREARM IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR A VEHICLE WITH THE MAG AND/OR BOLT IN PLACE. Don't you know your firearm regulations?


No wonder the staff gave you a confused look

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## peril 787b

Okay, I'm man enough to accept that I may be  wrong in this situation, but I'll check into the regs. Still feels uncomfortable being handed a rifle with a closed bolt.

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## veitnamcam

> Okay, I'm man enough to accept that I may be  wrong in this situation, but I'll check into the regs. Still feels uncomfortable being handed a rifle with a closed bolt.


Its all good as long as you have been shown it is not loaded.

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Neckshot

This is the  problem with this place FFs why is this being talked about the actual problem has been and gone but its still being fucken wanked on about!!!!...............................instead of writing a big fucking wank rant on safety just take the whole problem into your own hands and end the problem there and then instead of filling this forum up with this waste of time bullshit.
He pointed an unloaded rifle at you.................pretend you thought it was loaded grab barrel pull it past your head becuase you stated it was aiming at you r mellon then as his face is close enough fucken hit the cunt right in the kisser pull said rifle out of his hands take out bolt and ask to talk to the boss.the shop dosnt have a leg to stand on as you felt threatened with a potential loaded wepon they will say sorry job done.
find other shit to winge about like.................................well I dint know because I dint winge much I have a wife shes dose it all for me.

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## Rushy

> This is the  problem with this place FFs why is this being talked about the actual problem has been and gone but its still being fucken wanked on about!!!!...............................instead of writing a big fucking wank rant on safety just take the whole problem into your own hands and end the problem there and then instead of filling this forum up with this waste of time bullshit.
> He pointed an unloaded rifle at you.................pretend you thought it was loaded grab barrel pull it past your head becuase you stated it was aiming at you r mellon then as his face is close enough fucken hit the cunt right in the kisser pull said rifle out of his hands take out bolt and ask to talk to the boss.the shop dosnt have a leg to stand on as you felt threatened with a potential loaded wepon they will say sorry job done.
> find other shit to winge about like.................................well I dint know because I dint winge much I have a wife shes dose it all for me.


 :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Thumbsup:

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## Toby

> This is the  problem with this place FFs why is this being talked about the actual problem has been and gone but its still being fucken wanked on about!!!!...............................instead of writing a big fucking wank rant on safety just take the whole problem into your own hands and end the problem there and then instead of filling this forum up with this waste of time bullshit.
> He pointed an unloaded rifle at you.................pretend you thought it was loaded grab barrel pull it past your head becuase you stated it was aiming at you r mellon then as his face is close enough fucken hit the cunt right in the kisser pull said rifle out of his hands take out bolt and ask to talk to the boss.the shop dosnt have a leg to stand on as you felt threatened with a potential loaded wepon they will say sorry job done.
> find other shit to winge about like.................................well I dint know because I dint winge much I have a wife shes dose it all for me.


That sounds like something someone who doesn't want to have a FAL very long would do tbh

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## Neckshot

Some of the shit you post up toby is a bit rich TBO!!!.self defence buddy you can plead ignorance in saying he was pointing a loaded firearm at you!!!!! how were you to know it wasn't loaded,like I said stupid fucking prescious post at the very start.What is lacking is this forum isn't going to solve each mans problems yeah.....................solve them ya fucking self instead of piss whining on here looking for some love.

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## seano

> This is the  problem with this place FFs why is this being talked about the actual problem has been and gone but its still being fucken wanked on about!!!!...............................instead of writing a big fucking wank rant on safety just take the whole problem into your own hands and end the problem there and then instead of filling this forum up with this waste of time bullshit.
> He pointed an unloaded rifle at you.................pretend you thought it was loaded grab barrel pull it past your head becuase you stated it was aiming at you r mellon then as his face is close enough fucken hit the cunt right in the kisser pull said rifle out of his hands take out bolt and ask to talk to the boss.the shop dosnt have a leg to stand on as you felt threatened with a potential loaded wepon they will say sorry job done.
> find other shit to winge about like.................................well I dint know because I dint winge much I have a wife shes dose it all for me.


Bought your "Mates" with you Tonight  N.S    :Thumbsup:   :Beer:   :Thumbsup:

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## Toby

I agree about the safety stuff on here but walking up to someone in a gun shop and punching them in the face sounds like a bad oh never mind go do and see where you end up

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## Neckshot

> I agree about the safety stuff on here but walking up to someone in a gun shop and punching them in the face sounds like a bad oh never mind go do and see where you end up


well toby go and point a firearm at me and see what happens I agree whole hartedly to not point a firearm at someone.but in the real world the law looks at force vs force if you pull a knife but get smaked in the head with a fist whon is going to win in court???? if you point a high powerd fire arm at my head and I smak you in the chops who is going to walk out of court head held high??.

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## Banana

> but in the real world the law looks at force vs force if you pull a knife but get smaked in the head with a fist whon is going to win in court????


That's not how it works.  Assault the next person who muzzles you at a gun store and see how it works out for you.

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## Koshogi

> Still feels uncomfortable being handed a rifle with a closed bolt.


Doesn't bother me in the slightest, because I will:
◇Treat it as if it is loaded. 
◇Not point it at anything I'm not willing to destroy. 
◇Keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to fire.
◇Confirm the condition of the firearm upon receiving it.

I understand your concerns,  but if you follow the golden rules it is a non issue. I'm going to treat it as if it IS loaded even if it ISN'T.

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## 257weatherby

Funny,

You put up a post about something that happened you feel like sharing, and invite comment- some post in with related instances that have happened to them, some just to share their opinion as to right or wrong as sociable people do, weather they necessarily agree or not, but some........ jump in to post full of rage and vitriol and general antiness re the thread itself and those that post but don't agree with his point of view, people like that, might want to consider the following:

1- Platform shoes will solve the height problem,
2- Taking the pill will help adjust the "time of the month" problem,
3- Not posting in threads you hate will help your nerves,
4- Valium will help solve the rest,

If you recognise yourself here, pleased I could help! :Grin:

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## gadgetman

> This is the  problem with this place FFs why is this being talked about the actual problem has been and gone but its still being fucken wanked on about!!!!...............................instead of writing a big fucking wank rant on safety just take the whole problem into your own hands and end the problem there and then instead of filling this forum up with this waste of time bullshit.
> He pointed an unloaded rifle at you.................pretend you thought it was loaded grab barrel pull it past your head becuase you stated it was aiming at you r mellon then as his face is close enough fucken hit the cunt right in the kisser pull said rifle out of his hands take out bolt and ask to talk to the boss.the shop dosnt have a leg to stand on as you felt threatened with a potential loaded wepon they will say sorry job done.
> find other shit to winge about like.................................well I dint know because I dint winge much I have a wife shes dose it all for me.


The main reason for bringing up a subject like this is to get opinions and options on how to deal with the situation.

Myself:

1. If I was within reach I would push the barrel away to a safe direction else move to 2.
2. In a very loud, calm, clear, authoritative voice, so as many in the place can hear including other customers and staff, make it clear that I was uncomfortable having a firearm pointed at me and that both the customer and sales staff must ensure that it never happens again and that they are both responsible for the situation. Basically make them feel very uncomfortable.
3. If I felt the response to the above was inadequate proceed to ask for both their details for a formal complaint to the Police.

Admittedly I am a very quiet person but I have been in similar situations before and made plenty of noise about it. The trick is to be calm and authoritative and not resort to being abusive and antagonistic. The arms officers that vetted both TimeRider and myself said that we must take firm action if required.

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## Tahr

> Funny,
> 
> You put up a post about something that happened you feel like sharing, and invite comment- some post in with related instances that have happened to them, some just to share their opinion as to right or wrong as sociable people do, weather they necessarily agree or not, but some........ jump in to post full of rage and vitriol and general antiness re the thread itself and those that post but don't agree with his point of view, people like that, might want to consider the following:
> 
> 1- Platform shoes will solve the height problem,
> 2- Taking the pill will help adjust the "time of the month" problem,
> 3- Not posting in threads you hate will help your nerves,
> 4- Valium will help solve the rest,
> 
> If you recognise yourself here, pleased I could help!


So, I would have just said “Oi, don’t point that thing at me!”, an then tottered out in my high heels.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Rushy

> I am a very quiet person


I recognise the type GM. Capable of much. Dangerous to underestimate.

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## distant stalker

> I would be pissed about having it pointed at me, couldn't give a shit about the bolt and mag being in.


You know how guns work?
yes im bored.... :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## v1025566

> You know how guns work?
> yes im bored....


Not fully, I heard that they go off by themselves without any human intervention whatsoever and that if they have pistol grips and sliding stocks they are 3x more likely to be used in aggravated assaults against babies.
Go firearm shopping in the US and every AR in the shop has a fucking 30 rounder jammed up it's arse while it's on display, 787b would have a coronary artery spasm

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## AzumitH

So if forums aren't for discussing issues and topics of interest what are they for?  Typing practice?

Quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog?

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## gadgetman

> I recognise the type GM. Capable of much. Dangerous to underestimate.


There were quite a few that didn't unfortunately.

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## rambo-6mmrem

the issue imo is that in a shop there is very limited spots to point a firearm with out pointing it at someone (maybe not directly) but if a round were to go off *which it wont as the shop sales person and your self should of made 100% SURE  that the firearm was cleared and safe* a round would go trough displays shelf's etc with still plenty of power to kill someone standing behind maybe gun shops should have an proper spot for this with a barrier so no one can walk in front and maybe even a target on the wall to take aim at and dry fire a couple of times and no pointing of firearms is to take place unless its in that spot

that's the only way I can see of pointing firearms in a safe direction in a shop

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## ebf

Safe zone with a target on the wall would be a good idea.

Gives people something to aim at, kinda like a fly painted on a urinal  :Grin:

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## Rushy

> So if forums aren't for discussing issues and topics of interest what are they for?  Typing practice?
> 
> Quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog?


Ha ha ha ha you need more practice. You missed out the word "The" at the beginning of that sentence AzumitH.

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## Pengy

A 50 MTR range out back of every gun store with them providing half a box of amo to try out for free .  :Have A Nice Day:

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## K95

It's pretty regular to see someone pointing a shotgun at another's face at clay bird shoots, it's perfectly safe given the gun is checked and all people know what's going on. 

How on earth is someone ever going to look at a rifles muzzle if every firearm must be treated as loaded??? 

I agree, in gunshops, no one should be pointing firearms at others but only because not everyone in the store may know what is going on or if the firearm is safe or not. No live ammunition should ever be chambered either.

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## jakesae101

I've never seen anyone point a gun at someones face at a clay shoot pretty sure you'd get told to feck off and don't come back at the clubs i shoot at the usual action open gun in a safe direction applies you don't have to  stand directly in front of the barrel to check gunfit

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## Spanners

> I've never seen anyone point a gun at someones face at a clay shoot pretty sure you'd get told to feck off and don't come back at the clubs i shoot at the usual action open gun in a safe direction applies you don't have to  stand directly in front of the barrel to check gunfit


Ive shot at 10? clubs throughout the country and it is a VERY common practice for gun fit.
Guy that fitted my Mrs gun was ex H&H and did the same.. the medals on his wall from last 50yrs back up his expertise.. 

Id like someone to explain how you fit a shotgun without doing it..??

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## Spanners

> instead of filling this forum up with this waste of time bullshit.
> .


Yip...

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## ebf

If I ever had to point a shotgun at someone helping me fit it, I would make VERY sure it is unloaded, and pretty sure the pointee would do the same  :Grin: 

We are getting a bit far of the topic of someone having a firearm pointed at them when they have no idea if it is loaded or safe...

Context dear Liza

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## AzumitH

> Ha ha ha ha you need more practice. You missed out the word "The" at the beginning of that sentence AzumitH.


Product of my edumacation.

And to others comparing shotgun fitment to being muzzle swept by randoms with a gun you haven't checked have gone a little off track.

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## 10-Ring

Went in the Aucks branch Easter Saturday. Asked to see a Sako  Forrester .308 that I saw in the used section. Sales guy tries to hand it over to me with the bolt closed. "Lift the bolt and open the action please" I ask. Blank look and hesitation from the dude before he eventually does as I ask.

You have to wonder where they get these people from. 

.

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## 308

I have found a very simple solution to this problem

I don't set foot in gun city

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## stumpy

ok , so I am in chch for a few weeks , went into the guncity  here , .... nice big shop friendly enough sales people ... BUT .....a youngish female sales clerk was showing a young guy a trap gun , ... and from behind the counter was aiming into the store (ie at me ) .... now I know its 99% chance its empty .... but I still thought of this forum straight away , ...she then preceded to walk to the far end with the unbroken shotty over her shoulder barrel pointing backwards (into the store again) ...she was also very loud with all her advice , ... and was almost on show .... I believe (imho) that good firearm management should be shown at all times , . good practice is to not point a loaded or unloaded weapon at anyone , ever ... even if some one is just testing eye relief or butt length .. etc ... surely there is a better way . im not delicate ... but gun shops should be 100% professional at all times ....

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## 10-Ring

> Doesn't bother me in the slightest, because I will:
> ◇Treat it as if it is loaded. 
> ◇Not point it at anything I'm not willing to destroy. 
> ◇Keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to fire.
> ◇Confirm the condition of the firearm upon receiving it.
> 
> I understand your concerns,  but if you follow the golden rules it is a non issue. I'm going to treat it as if it IS loaded even if it ISN'T.


It's not a non issue to a lot of people and it shouldn't be to you either. Even though it's not a legal requirement it is a common safety procedure to not accept a firearm from someone with the action closed. It's mentioned in the Arms code as a safety precaution as well. Now one would assume that people who work in a shop selling firearms would know better, even from the point of view of their own safety. How are they to know that the firearm they pick up from the rack is not loaded unless they check it? 

From the Arms Code.

Rule 1. Treat every firearm as loaded.

. Do not take anyone's word that a firearm is unloaded. Check every firearm yourself. Only pass or accept a firearm that has the muzzle pointed in a safe direction; the action open; and is not loaded.

. If it someone else's, ask them to show you that it is unloaded.

Then when you accept the firearm, you check it again yourself, as you mentioned.

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## Koshogi

I think you might have misconstrued my statement.

I didn't say to not do it(it being; opening an action and showing clear prior to passing a firearm). I said it doesn't bother me and if you following the "golden rules" it's a non issue.

Yes it is in the Arms code. Yes it is probably common place in NZ, not in GC apparently though.

It is not standard practice in a military environment(AUS & CDN).

I have been handed or picked up a loaded firearm on numerous occasions. I did not have a choice in having them open the action first. I did not feel nervous or bothered. I followed the rules and handled the firearm safely.

If it IS an issue to you, and you wish to fully abide by the Arms Code, then by all means insist on the action be opened prior to you receiving the firearm.

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## Koshogi

One thing that DID bother me in the AUS Army was the policy that everybody points their rifles at everybody!

I'm not talking about in exercises when you have OPFOR role players.

I'm talking about in drill, on patrol, walking around the compound, freaking everywhere! Then they issue you with ammo and tell you not to point your rifle at anybody. The complacency of muzzle discipline has already been ingrained.

It's even in the pistol training manual

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## v1025566

> I think you might have misconstrued my statement.
> 
> I didn't say to not do it(it being; opening an action and showing clear prior to passing a firearm). I said it doesn't bother me and if you following the "golden rules" it's a non issue.
> 
> Yes it is in the Arms code. Yes it is probably common place in NZ, not in GC apparently though.
> 
> It is not standard practice in a military environment(AUS & CDN).
> 
> I have been handed or picked up a loaded firearm on numerous occasions. I did not have a choice in having them open the action first. I did not feel nervous or bothered. I followed the rules and handled the firearm safely.
> ...


Do you know for a fact it's not standard practise in the aussie military? NZ usually copies everything Australia does and in the nzdf accepting a steyr without being shown its clear will end up in a run to the top of that big fuck off hill over there or up downs.
surely legislation involving the removal of trigger groups on displayed firearms is the only way to go?

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## Dangerous Dan

OP, Are you implying the staff member would knowingly allow a customer to wave a loaded firearm around the shop whilst within arms reach?

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## 10-Ring

My point was (and remains so) that it can still be unsafe to accept a firearm from someone who hasn't checked to see whether the action is clear. There is the chance that the firearm is loaded and the unsafe dickhead who hasn't checked it may even have his or her fat little digit wrapped around the trigger when they attempt to hand it to you. They don't have to have the firearm pointing at you to make it an unsafe thing to do as it could be accidentally discharged by said dickhead resulting in someone else being shot apart from the person they're handing the firearm to. 

Therein lies the logic of my earlier reply to you that it's not a non issue and the reason why it's mentioned in the Arms code and taught by the Mountain Safety Council. 

I was a D.A. range officer for three years and I can tell you had anyone accepted a firearm that hadn't been shown to be clear from another person then both individuals would be severely reprimanded. If I failed to do so then I would get my arse kicked even harder by the other shooters present. 

You can never be too safe with firearms.

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## Koshogi

Yes, I know for a fact. I just discharged at the end of last year.

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## v1025566

> Yes, I know for a fact. I just discharged at the end of last year.


Thats fuckd up then.

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## Koshogi

> My point was (and remains so) that it can still be unsafe to accept a firearm from someone who hasn't checked to see whether the action is clear. There is the chance that the firearm is loaded and the unsafe dickhead who hasn't checked it may even have his or her fat little digit wrapped around the trigger when they attempt to hand it to you. They don't have to have the firearm pointing at you to make it an unsafe thing to do as it could be accidentally discharged by said dickhead resulting in someone else being shot apart from the person they're handing the firearm to.


Then they are not following the "golden rules' and so IT then becomes an issue. They probably shouldn't be anywhere near firearms though. Unfortunately, I don't think that example has much logic in it. You can play what if's all day if you want.

As I said, I'm not saying don't do it.

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## Koshogi

> Thats fuckd up then.


It is your responsibility to clear it upon receiving it. Somebody must watch you do it. 

We also take the barrel off every time we clear the F88(Steyr).

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## 10-Ring

> Then they are not following the "golden rules' and so IT then becomes an issue. They probably shouldn't be anywhere near firearms though. Unfortunately, I don't think that example has much logic in it. You can play what if's all day if you want.
> 
> As I said, I'm not saying don't do it.


Firearm safety is all based on eliminating the "if's" not playing with them.

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## Koshogi

You cannot eliminate the "if s".

You control them,  by following the golden rules. 

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

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## v1025566

> Then they are not following the "golden rules' and so IT then becomes an issue. They probably shouldn't be anywhere near firearms though. Unfortunately, I don't think that example has much logic in it. You can play what if's all day if you want.
> 
> As I said, I'm not saying don't do it.


I think what hes getting at is that in the highly unlikely event that a display rifle makes it from its country of manufacture, through customs at that country, then through nz customs, then from the importer to the retailer then onto display with rounds in it, there would be a chance that the shop person handing the rifle to you could discharge the rifle. So applying ypur golden rules would be too late. Improbable yes impossible no.

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## 10-Ring

> You cannot eliminate the "if s".
> 
>  You control them,  by following the golden rules. 
> 
>  Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk


That's not entirely correct. However, I'm not going labour the point with you because it's obviously a waste of everybody's time; mine included.

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## Koshogi

What if he discharges it while clearing it?

Most negligent discharges in the Army are when people are clearing their weapons. 

IF everyone follows THE(not mine) Golden Rules, it's not too late. 

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

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## 10-Ring

> So applying your golden rules would be too late. Improbable yes impossible no.


That's a damn good point.

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## Dead is better

> Thats fuckd up then.


That cant have been INF surely! When I was enlisted back in the late 90's we had that stuffed drummed into us word for word at every opportunity. I find it very hard to believe that riflemen arent being taught rifle safety in the Australian Army. They were OHS crazy as well.

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## Dead is better

I reckon there isn't a soul on here who hasn't accidentally pointed a firearm at somebody. I've done it once or twice but the important thing is to swallow ones pride and try not to f#ckup in future.

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## Ryan

I can safely say that I've never accidentally pointed a firearm at someone.

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## Koshogi

> That cant have been INF surely! When I was enlisted back in the late 90's we had that stuffed drummed into us word for word at every opportunity. I find it very hard to believe that riflemen arent being taught rifle safety in the Australian Army. They were OHS crazy as well.


Yes that was in Infantry.

I'm not saying that they did not teach firearm safety. I'm saying that muzzle discipline IS a flawed issue in the ADF. When marching with rifles (not slung) the rifle is carried horizontally, which is pointing at the person at your 11 O'clock when in formation. You are required to carry your weapon in this position around bases, the issue is dismissed because the rifles are "unloaded". People are constantly "muzzle flashing" each other, I feel due to this ingrained complacency. With the increased training with the USMC this is being improved upon, as the Marines were not impressed by this. 

Once live ammo is issued it is then stressed to not muzzle flash anyone.

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## Danny

> OP, Are you implying the staff member would knowingly allow a customer to wave a loaded firearm around the shop whilst within arms reach?


That MUST be a load of crap! So next topic please!!!!
Please... And if or next time u do see some idiot doing something dangerous; hit the dick head up and put him or her straight...Straight away. 


Dan

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## gadgetman

> ok , so I am in chch for a few weeks , went into the guncity  here , .... nice big shop friendly enough sales people ... BUT .....a youngish female sales clerk was showing a young guy a trap gun , ... and from behind the counter was aiming into the store (ie at me ) .... now I know its 99% chance its empty .... but I still thought of this forum straight away , ...she then preceded to walk to the far end with the unbroken shotty over her shoulder barrel pointing backwards (into the store again) ...she was also very loud with all her advice , ... and was almost on show .... I believe (imho) that good firearm management should be shown at all times , . good practice is to not point a loaded or unloaded weapon at anyone , ever ... even if some one is just testing eye relief or butt length .. etc ... surely there is a better way . im not delicate ... but gun shops should be 100% professional at all times ....


 @stumpy, that was likely to be Chloe Tipple, one of the daughters of the owner/founder David Tipple.

I agree on 100% (minimum) professionalism in shops. They are often dealing with newbies and should be reinforcing the basics with their actions. At Gunworks there is now a sign outside the door asking you to unpack your firearms and check them before entering; obviously come across too many that weren't.

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## kotuku

> @stumpy, that was likely to be Chloe Tipple, one of the daughters of the owner/founder David Tipple.
> 
> I agree on 100% (minimum) professionalism in shops. They are often dealing with newbies and should be reinforcing the basics with their actions. At Gunworks there is now a sign outside the door asking you to unpack your firearms and check them before entering; obviously come across too many that weren't.


 if it was Chloe ,shes an international trap shooter so should be well aware of safety protocols and i must say ive usually found her pretty switched on safety wise..I was in there recently to having a wee gaze on what is my next intended purchase.salesman was extremely adept with the safety precautions !00% so.in fact it struck me maybe someone has read the riot act to all the GC staff of recent times.

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## ROLR.NZ

I'm new so I will be brief, unacceptable and I would have told them in terms that would have left them under no illusion, basic arms code violation poor or no muzzle discipline, a call from the local arms officer to remind them of their responsibilities is in order. That is all.

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## timattalon

Going all the way back to the first post, I have one main comment to make. You do not need a bolt or magazine fitted to check eye relief. Whenever we are working on a rifle for what ever reason, the bolt and magazine (if possible) is removed. I understand them being displayed with them fitted. (Would you like to buy a rifle and find you were supplied the wrong bolt?) but there is no need for them to be fitted while working on them. You may need to test that the bolt clears the scope, and that it functions, but that is about it.

Second, ALWAYS point a firearm in a safe direction. That is not negotiable. And its simple.

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## 260hunter

> @stumpy, that was likely to be Chloe Tipple, one of the daughters of the owner/founder David Tipple.
> 
> I agree on 100% (minimum) professionalism in shops. They are often dealing with newbies and should be reinforcing the basics with their actions. At Gunworks there is now a sign outside the door asking you to unpack your firearms and check them before entering; obviously come across too many that weren't.


Yeah Robbies an old soldier from the old school. He was taught right at WTD. :Cool:

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## kotuku

yes and the latter stages of his career (illustrious as he is)were spent in my old unit 2.CantNMWC which alas is now a part of 2/4 BTN battle group. robbie was also one of thje NZ armies premiere shooting coaches Im led to believe.

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## rs200nz

Just had this the other day.  Guy handed me a Target rifle Remington 700.  He opened bolt, shut it and then handed it over.  Looks like things will never change

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