# Outdoors > Gear and Equipment >  ice axe and crampons reccomendation

## scottrods

I'm not a tahr hunter and not keen on mad out climbing but couple of outings recently have been touch and go on the return down in the cold where I needed extra grip.

Looking for reccomendation on an Ice Axe and crampons. Don't want to break the bank either.

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## stug

Go into an outdoor store, bivouac etc, take your boots in. They will put you right. Then learn how to use them properly before you go tahr hunting.

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## gundoc

Taking your boots in to get proper fitting crampons is good advice.  An ice axe can be bloody dangerous unless you have it in your hands and your rifle slung across your back.  If you need an ice axe when hunting then you will be way above the animals.  They don't like the snow and ice any more than we do, and they can be found at much lower altitudes during winter, often quite close to where you would leave your vehicle.

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## Wildman

Get the ice axe and forget the crampons. Just learn not to put yourself in silly situations.  there are plenty of tahr in places that don't need crampons and you're more likely to get yourself into trouble with them...

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## Aly

I'd easily argue that crampons are faaaaaaaaar more dangerous than ice axes. 

If you want crampons you'd probably wanna look at 10-12 pt ones. 

Great brands for both: petzl, grivel and black diamond (although some black diamond crampons are known for breaking bits off but good for ice axes!) 

And definitely get sized up for both of them.

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## scottrods

Tramping recently and was coming down snow covered tracks at dusk. Repeated snow and ice layers made the track just walkable with poles. Didn't have crampons or ice axe. 
So looking for something in this situation - not for hunting tahr. Its for descending in cold, dark locations esp in snow over ice.

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## kidmac42

I had a pair of zangs made by kovea up until recently. They were great for traction on the tussuck faces as well as icy tracks and snow. They fit in your instep and strap over the foot, with four prongs pointing down. Not sure if still availible these days.

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## GravelBen

You want an axe that looks like this:



And not like this:



Because you're mostly walking with it, not climbing vertical ice. Get someone to teach you how to self-arrest, and practice somewhere with a safe run-out until you can do it without thinking.

I'd recommend 12-point rather than 10-point crampons unless you're really light, it helps spread the load better. And learn how to use them on easy terrain before steep stuff too - for most people the biggest thing to learn is to bend your ankle and put the points flat against the ice/snow rather than trying to kick edges like a boot. Everyone walks like a constipated cowboy at first, otherwise you swing too close to your leg with each step and end up slicing your gaiters/legs or catching a point and tripping yourself up.

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## puku

@GravelBen
Here I was thinking that you were going to put a pic like this up

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## Shearer

> I'd easily argue that crampons are faaaaaaaaar more dangerous than ice axes. 
> 
> If you want crampons you'd probably wanna look at 10-12 pt ones. 
> 
> Great brands for both: petzl, grivel and black diamond (although some black diamond crampons are known for breaking bits off but good for ice axes!) 
> 
> And definitely get sized up for both of them.


Funny you should say this. I have used crampons a lot and found them totally secure and easy to use. I carry an ice axe as well but have hardly used it apart for a walking stick. A lot of the time I have been on crampons I have crossed places that would have taken 10x as long if I had only had an axe. If I had only had an axe I would probably still be up there.
My crampons are Black Diamond and never looked like having bits braking off either. @Aly, do you use 10 or 12 point? What brand? Are you technical climbing or just using them travelling in regular hunting situations?

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## Shearer

@scottrods. Something like Hillsound trail crampons will probably suit your needs.
Light and easy to use.

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## Aly

> Funny you should say this. I have used crampons a lot and found them totally secure and easy to use. I carry an ice axe as well but have hardly used it apart for a walking stick. A lot of the time I have been on crampons I have crossed places that would have taken 10x as long if I had only had an axe. If I had only had an axe I would probably still be up there.
> My crampons are Black Diamond and never looked like having bits braking off either. @Aly, do you use 10 or 12 point? What brand? Are you technical climbing or just using them travelling in regular hunting situations?


Crampons definitely cause plenty of accidents! But just like any snow and climbing equipment it takes practice to be safe with them, and it's up to you how secure and easy they are  :Psmiley:  . I use 12 point ones usually and don't do much technical climbing (but getting there) and I use them whenever in alpine snow conditions if appropriate. Crampon accidents involve broken ankles, legs, causing serious falls when they catch on your clothing or slip off incorrect boots, slicing your legs or even slicing other people's legs. Worst things to have on your feet should you fall because so many people make the mistake of trying to use their feet to slow down - snap their ankle or flip over themselves headfirst. 

Ice axes are definitely more for the security and I use mine mostly for support while walking too. But with crampons they are a necessity regardless - and best use is definitely for an extra anchor rather than emergency. Black Diamond have good ones and bad ones. Since I borrow most of mine I use grivels and black diamond, have had to wear some nasty black diamonds and some good ones haha! Grivels are some of the best you can get.

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## Smiddy

> Taking your boots in to get proper fitting crampons is good advice.  An ice axe can be bloody dangerous unless you have it in your hands and your rifle slung across your back.  If you need an ice axe when hunting then you will be way above the animals.  They don't like the snow and ice any more than we do, and they can be found at much lower altitudes during winter, often quite close to where you would leave your vehicle.


Sorry mate but your way off with the comment about being way above the animals 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Shearer

> Crampons definitely cause plenty of accidents! But just like any snow and climbing equipment it takes practice to be safe with them, and it's up to you how secure and easy they are  . I use 12 point ones usually and don't do much technical climbing (but getting there) and I use them whenever in alpine snow conditions if appropriate. Crampon accidents involve broken ankles, legs, causing serious falls when they catch on your clothing or slip off incorrect boots, slicing your legs or even slicing other people's legs. Worst things to have on your feet should you fall because so many people make the mistake of trying to use their feet to slow down - snap their ankle or flip over themselves headfirst. 
> 
> Ice axes are definitely more for the security and I use mine mostly for support while walking too. But with crampons they are a necessity regardless - and best use is definitely for an extra anchor rather than emergency. Black Diamond have good ones and bad ones. Since I borrow most of mine I use grivels and black diamond, have had to wear some nasty black diamonds and some good ones haha! Grivels are some of the best you can get.


I hope no one offers you nasty Black Diamond ones on you give me stuff thread then  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Aly

> I hope no one offers you nasty Black Diamond ones on you give me stuff thread then


You sound like you work for them!

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## Shearer

Haha. No, but never had any issues with their gear. Neither have any of my friends who use it (as far as I know).
I guess everyone makes a lemon at some stage though.
It is good to hear peoples experience with equipment. Can make the difference between choosing it or not.

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## K95

Get a black diamond axe. The Raven Pro model is reasonably cheap and one of the lightest axes easily available here. 
Camp make crampons that would suit, reasonably light weight. I use a Raven Pro and Grivel crampons. The crampons are heavy but should last.

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## Aly

> Haha. No, but never had any issues with their gear. Neither have any of my friends who use it (as far as I know).
> I guess everyone makes a lemon at some stage though.
> It is good to hear peoples experience with equipment. Can make the difference between choosing it or not.


Yup there's always gear that people just love. Good thing is that equipment does improve over time. Even the worst crampons these days Sir Edmund Hillary would have thought were the Bees Knees on Everest.

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## Aly

Know The Ropes: Snow Climbing - AAC Publications - Search The American Alpine Journal and Accidents In North American Mountaineering

This is also some really fantastic information for anyone using gear in the snow  :Have A Nice Day:

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## GravelBen

The Black Diamond crampons I heard about the problems with were the early version of the 'sabretooth' model - there is a weak point at the back of the heel which can fatigue and break from long-term use on hard ice and rocks. I have a pair of that model (for about 10 years now) and they've been fine. They're not really optimised for steep hard ice climbing anyway, they'll do it ok but aimed more at general snow and mountain use - easiest way to tell is the relatively thin horizontal front points, technical ice climbing crampons have more solid vertical profile front points.

A mate had the Petzl 'Vasak' model which used a gammy lever on the side to lock them onto the boot, which would sometimes spontaneously release themselves - they did it once while soloing 50 degree ice, after that hairy moment he sold them and bought something different!

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## GravelBen

I also have a BD Raven Pro, only weighs about 380g which helps justify carrying it on those trips where you aren't sure if you'll need it or not. The light weight is a downside when you're swinging it into hard snow/ice though.

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## scottrods

Got a free axe today. Thanks to a member on here for donating an old one. 
 :Have A Nice Day:

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## Aly

> Got a free axe today. Thanks to a member on here for donating an old one.


Good sorts on this forum!!  :Thumbsup:

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