# Firearms and Shooting > Firearms, Optics and Accessories >  New Defence Force rifles need firing pins replaced

## stug

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12128131

Every single firing pin in the NZ Defence Force's 9040 new infantry rifles has been replaced after a number of the rifles broke when the weapon was brought into service.

The firing pin is a critical part of any firearm - without one it won't work.

The rifles were part of a $59 million deal to provide military personnel with state-of-the-art weapons.

The MARS-L rifle was brought to replace the Steyr rifle, which had been the general infantry weapon since 1988.

The new weapon is based on the M-16/AR-15 type weapon and was intended to double the range effectiveness of those firing it out to 600 metres.

The first shipment of the 9040 rifles bought from United States manufacturer Lewis Machine and Tools arrived in May last year.

They have been gradually rolled out since, being introduced as military personnel trained with the new weapon during which time issues with the firing pin emerged.

Then other issues cropped up with about 130 rifles showing cracks around the mechanism which houses the bolt allowing the weapon to be fire.

NZDF confirmed: "Identified issues were the firing pins, trigger mechanisms and cracked bolt carriers.

"During introduction into service training a number of firing pins suffered breakages and to ensure all rifles are now at the highest standard, LMT has replaced all firing pins under warranty."

The replaced firing pins were now at a standard "higher than that of the US Military Standard". As it was done under warranty, there was no cost to the taxpayer.

The $59m deal with Lewis Machine and Tools included the rifles, sights, support weapons and training equipment.

The NZDF order was the largest ever to be filled by Lewis Machine and Tools and came after it bought specialist marksman rifles from the weapons manufacturer.

The firing pin breakages appeared linked to variations in strength across the entire shipment of rifles.

The NZDF statement said: "Root cause testing found some variations in the hardness of the metal firing pins and a new inspection procedure was developed and tested which gave the NZDF a higher assurance that the pins were heat treated evenly."

The firing pin issue, and a number of other issues identified as the rifle was introduced, have not cooled enthusiasm for the weapon.

Commanders and soldiers have offered rave reviews in a recent copy of Army News.

These views were endorsed by Defence minister Ron Mark, who told the Herald the Mars-L was a "vast improvement" on the Steyr.

"I've taken a close look at the Mars-L and also spoken to soldiers who are impressed with the new weapon, which to me is the best sign the project team got it right.

"The previous Government made the right call buying it, so credit where credit is due.

He said "minor issues" with its introduction were covered by warranty and the manufacturer had been "incredibly responsive and proactive in fixing the issues".

Private sector gun expert, Gun City owner David Tipple, said firing pin issues were not uncommon but a variation in the pin across the batch due to manufacturer was "not good".

He praised the rifle and the willingness of NZDF to buy it for their troops when other militaries had settled for the same style but lower quality.

"That rifle New Zealand Army bought was the Rolls Royce. I am so pleased that we made such an intelligent decision."

He said Lewis Machine and Tools was known as a quality manufacturer.

"They're a good company and its a beautiful rifle."

NZDF recently devoted two pages of Army News to highlight the new rifle.

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## planenutz

Great to see the Army are happy with their new toys. So often we seem to have ended up with lemons. I'm genuinely pleased for them.

Seems odd to me in this world of technology and daily advancement that we now have some flash new version of an AR-15... a design that dates back about 50 years. On the plus side, if the Army ever runs out of bits they'll be able to buy plenty of replacements on TradeMe. It would be cheaper to buy their parts on eBay of course, but we all know NZ Post won't ship gun parts from 'merica. 

Just curious - What's so good about these AR's over say, the array of generic versions we enjoy here?

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## omegaspeedy

The LMT is a sweet looking rifle and I'm sure it will serve us well. Why would they not just get Colt's which would perform the same but far cheaper and more reliable? Theres a great thread on AR15.com regarding high round count AR's. Guess what seems to perform the longest before failure? I'd still love an LMT!

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## Max Headroom

> Great to see the Army are happy with their new toys. So often we seem to have ended up with lemons. I'm genuinely pleased for them.
> 
> Seems odd to me in this world of technology and daily advancement that we now have some flash new version of an AR-15... a design that dates back about 50 years. On the plus side, if the Army ever runs out of bits they'll be able to buy plenty of replacements on TradeMe. It would be cheaper to buy their parts on eBay of course, but we all know NZ Post won't ship gun parts from 'merica. 
> 
> Just curious - What's so good about these AR's over say, the array of generic versions we enjoy here?




The only thing I can think of offhand is auto fire.

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## omegaspeedy

Guess they went with a high quality supplier who actually could supply?? Wonder who else they asked to submit a sample.

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## grunzter

they are cool, I've got one!

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## Max Headroom

> they are cool, I've got one!
> Attachment 95391


How are your firing pin and BCG looking?

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## rewa

Guess time will tell with the receivers, and if these are the dearer "Rolls-Royce," compared with what other Nations purchased, lets hope "The Enemy" bought the others. Still no match for the old SLR

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## faregame

Umm rolls Royce has some engine issues around the world at moment (air nz for one with their 787)

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## Banana

> Guess they went with a high quality supplier who actually could supply?? Wonder who else they asked to submit a sample.


_A Request for Tender for the provision of contemporary individual weapons, necessary training, and associated support to the NZDF closed on 12 November 2014. Following the evaluation of the tender responses, the companies listed below were selected for the trials programme phase of the evaluation, which was undertaken between 2 March and 1 June 2015.

The following companies were selected for the Individual Weapon trials phase:

Beretta New Zealand Limited
Česká zbrojovka a.s.
Colt Canada Corporation
FN HERSTAL
STEYR MANNLICHER GmbH
XTEK Limited (Sig Sauer)
Heckler & Kock GmbH
Lewis Machine & Tools Co Inc

Following the trials programme phase of the evaluation of tenders, the Ministry has selected Lewis Machine & Tool Co Inc of the USA as preferred Tenderer. Subject to the Ministry undertaking a Due Dilligence activity and negotiation of a contract package, New Zealand Government approval will be sought to proceed to award of a contract._

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## dogmatix

> How are your firing pin and BCG looking?


Its 'only' the semi auto version. So the round count is way less.

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## 300CALMAN

They get some pretty nasty abuse and heated up way hotter on auto than would be common with MSR versions.

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## tanqueray

How is the effective range doubled over that of the Steyr? They’re both 5.56x45, are these new M4’s twice as accurate?

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## Danger Mouse

> How is the effective range doubled over that of the Steyr? They’re both 5.56x45, are these new M4’s twice as accurate?


Greater inherent accuracy and much better optics, as well as new ammo.

Gone from 1.5x optic to 4x acog

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## systolic

> Greater inherent accuracy and much better optics, as well as new ammo.
> 
> Gone from 1.5x optic to 4x acog


You wont see much of the new ammo.

The 77gr M262 was too expensive, so they've gone back to using 55gr M193 ammo. 

Which makes the special ballistic reticle in the sight a bit redundant.

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## Toby132

Had a play with some of the mars-ls at the local territorial force base thing, recruiters, whatever you call it. dont ask me how. Pretty cool gun scope is pretty nice, red dot on the top etc. recticle is set up with elevation holdover out to 800 meters. No frigen clue how your meant to shoot someone at 800 meters with a 5.56 but hey, I guess you can use it for suppressive fire.

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## Toby132

> You wont see much of the new ammo.
> 
> The 77gr M262 was too expensive, so they've gone back to using 55gr M193 ammo. 
> 
> Which makes the special ballistic reticle in the sight a bit redundant.


hhm waste o money for the recticle than aye

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## Mufasa

> You wont see much of the new ammo.
> 
> The 77gr M262 was too expensive, so they've gone back to using 55gr M193 ammo. 
> 
> Which makes the special ballistic reticle in the sight a bit redundant.


MK 262 for deployment. MK262T a 62gr'. projectile for training and AWQ, has the same performance out to 300m matching reticle.

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## grunzter

> You wont see much of the new ammo.
> 
> The 77gr M262 was too expensive, so they've gone back to using 55gr M193 ammo. 
> 
> Which makes the special ballistic reticle in the sight a bit redundant.


They will use 62gr. 55gr is not ideal for 1/7 twist barrel.

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## Danger Mouse

> You wont see much of the new ammo.
> 
> The 77gr M262 was too expensive, so they've gone back to using 55gr M193 ammo. 
> 
> Which makes the special ballistic reticle in the sight a bit redundant.


Facepalm. I knew units were struggling to get live rounds but didn't realise this. What a dick move. Ammo is the cost of going business. 55gr is probably too light for the twist rate too

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## Luke556

Side mounted bayonet lug :Wtfsmilie:

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## systolic

> Side mounted bayonet lug


Keeps it out of the way of the grenade launcher I think.

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## Cordite

> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12128131
> 
> Every single firing pin in the NZ Defence Force's 9040 new infantry rifles has been replaced after a number of the rifles broke when the weapon was brought into service.
> 
> The firing pin is a critical part of any firearm - without one it won't work.
> 
> The rifles were part of a $59 million deal to provide military personnel with state-of-the-art weapons.
> 
> The MARS-L rifle was brought to replace the Steyr rifle, which had been the general infantry weapon since 1988.
> ...


Reminds me of an article I once read, on the Fallschirmsgewehr, mentioning the dropping metallurgical standards in 1944-45 Germany as explanation of a crack developing in the bolt face during the test.  But in a gun contracted in relative peaceful times?

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## Max Headroom

> Reminds me of an article I once read, on the Fallschirmsgewehr, mentioning the dropping metallurgical standards in 1944-45 Germany as explanation of a crack developing in the bolt face during the test.  But in a gun contracted in relative peaceful times?


The only plus to this apart from the components being under warranty is that swapping out the BCG can be done very fast. 

Does make me scratch my head as to why LMT didn't test their rifles harder. I wonder whether this is typical of problems encountered by militaries fielding new small arms. That said, it's basically a well developed design already.

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## Danger Mouse

> The only plus to this apart from the components being under warranty is that swapping out the BCG can be done very fast. 
> 
> Does make me scratch my head as to why LMT didn't test their rifles harder. I wonder whether this is typical of problems encountered by militaries fielding new small arms. That said, it's basically a well developed design already.


I think it might be one of if not the largest single order lmt has received?

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## MSL

Its says in the article that its their largest ever order

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## Cordite

Well, better to find out in peacetime.

Speaking of firing pins, you AR15 afficionados.   I suppose a lot of shots will not be squeezed off calmly using a bipod - so what's the lock time of an AR15?

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## Max Headroom

> Well, better to find out in peacetime.


Exactly.

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## Luke556

> I think it might be one of if not the largest single order lmt has received?


No quality control down in Mehico :Oh Noes:

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## csmiffy

> Every single firing pin in the NZ Defence Force's 9040 new infantry rifles has been replaced after a number of the rifles broke when the weapon was brought into service.
> 
> The firing pin is a critical part of any firearm - without one it won't work.
> 
> Then other issues cropped up with about 130 rifles showing cracks around the mechanism which houses the bolt allowing the weapon to be fire.
> 
> NZDF confirmed: "Identified issues were the firing pins, trigger mechanisms and cracked bolt carriers.
> The replaced firing pins were now at a standard "higher than that of the US Military Standard". 
> The firing pin breakages appeared linked to variations in strength across the entire shipment of rifles.


Doesn't say much for the US Military standard

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## outlander

> Facepalm. I knew units were struggling to get live rounds but didn't realise this. What a dick move. Ammo is the cost of going business. 55gr is probably too light for the twist rate too


I very much doubt that a shot will ever be fired in anger. A paper target will never know the difference.

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## Micky Duck

I struggle to see how the 55grn wont work just fine...it will be overstabalized so will be spinning much faster than it should making it more likely to do naasty things at business end... a fmj SHOULD stand up to the additional Gforces placed on it by the fast twist.... can anyone tell me WHY they wont work???? I understand a slow twist not making heavy stable enough but not the other way around....

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## GDMP

I know there were also issues with the selector levers on these new rifles wearing prematurely....and also trigger mechanism springs I am told.Does not sound very promising to me to be honest...this design has been around for a long time now.

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## csmiffy

> Well, better to find out in peacetime.
> 
>  - so what's the lock time of an AR15?


African or European?
Anyone?

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## systolic

> African or European?
> Anyone?


Holy Grail

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## Cowboy06

I got to try out the 308 version LMT 14.5” the local AOS got a year ago. They were brand new hadn’t been fired so I invited them out to break them in. Worked without any issues and were pretty accurate. Shot them out to 550 yards with the 1.5-8 mark 4 leupold.

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## 300CALMAN

> I struggle to see how the 55grn wont work just fine...it will be overstabalized so will be spinning much faster than it should making it more likely to do naasty things at business end... a fmj SHOULD stand up to the additional Gforces placed on it by the fast twist.... can anyone tell me WHY they wont work???? I understand a slow twist not making heavy stable enough but not the other way around....


My experience is that over-spun light bullets tend to shoot inaccurately, especial if low quality. I guess it's a bit like a badly balanced turbo...

I am sure 55 gr will still work fine at normal combat distances but you want the extra weight of the 62-77 gr at longer distances anyway.

I remember that the steyr had plenty of problems when new including breaking firing mechanisms.

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## jackson21

Try shooting 55grs in a 1:7 twist, then 62's will start coming good and then 75 & 77s seem to be sweet spot.
1:8 seem to shoot 55's ok, guess it all depends on your accuracy expectations and quality barrels like JP will probably group anything well.

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## Max Headroom

> Well, better to find out in peacetime.
> 
> Speaking of firing pins, you AR15 afficionados.   I suppose a lot of shots will not be squeezed off calmly using a bipod - so what's the lock time of an AR15?


Between 2-16 milliseconds, depending what site on the net you read.

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## Max Headroom

this is the best explanation twist v bullet weight that I have found.

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## timattalon

> Attachment 95449
> 
> this is the best explanation twist v bullet weight that I have found.


Well I can verify the findings in the Green circle....

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## Beavis

55gr runs perfectly fine through a 1:7 Twist. Poor accuracy would be a reflection on ammo quality, the rifle, the shooter, or all three. 55gr M193 generally has excellent terminal performance at closer ranges too. It will fragment in soft tissue out to 150m or so. Years ago the defense force purchased some 55gr from FN that would spin apart after leaving a 1:7 twist,  and it was consequently sold off as surplus.

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## omegaspeedy

50gr Z-Max out of 1:7 18" @100m.......Eotech with magnifier.

I know there are rules of thumbs and the military wouldn't waste time throwing such a light slug but never discount it for your own plinking. It might just work sweet.

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## Max Headroom

Another point of view. I have a 1:7 twist rate in my NEA DMR, and found 50gn to group significantly better than 55gn.

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## grunzter

I was shooting SA army 55g ammo in SA recently and I found it fine at 100m & not bad at 200m through a 1/7 16" barrel. 
When you get to 300m and 400m the groups noticeable start to open out, compared to SS109 62gr and similar ammo.

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## omegaspeedy

> I was shooting SA army 55g ammo in SA recently and I found it fine at 100m & not bad at 200m through a 1/7 16" barrel. 
> When you get to 300m and 400m the groups noticeable start to open out, compared to SS109 62gr and similar ammo.


Absolutely, probably where the light stuff just runs out of energy and gets affected more by the elements.

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## Cowboy06

Also you need to see if those 50 and 55 gr bullets were flat base vs a 62gr + bullet that is likely to be a boattail. The latter is going to stay more accurate the further out it goes compared to the flatbase in general terms. The flatbase will also loose velocity and energy a lot quicker too.

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## Cordite

> Also you need to see if those 50 and 55 gr bullets were flat base vs a 62gr + bullet that is likely to be a boattail. The latter is going to stay more accurate the further out it goes compared to the flatbase in general terms. The flatbase will also loose velocity and energy a lot quicker too.


  @Cowboy06

Correct, but only at the _end_ of the bullet's useful flight path, therefore it is not quite correct to state that a flat base spitzer will lose velocity and energy 'a lot quicker' than a boat tail.

There is no advantage from boat tail bullets at ethical hunting distances, only disadvantage, if you never need to shoot animals more than half a K away.  (OK, boat tails are easier to seat when reloading, but really!)

At supersonic speeds the front ogive is what matters in reducing velocity loss.  The lead and copper going into forming the boat tail is better used for forming a longer ogive at the front of the bullet when hunting distances are involved.  To increase your supersonic range, you need a long slender spitzer more than a boat tail.

Boat tail spitzers only have significantly lower drag than flat bottom spitzers once they both have slowed to transsonic/subsonic velocity. Only at that point do boat tails really start showing significantly less velocity drop than the equivalent weight spitzers.  But note, the boat tail only helps conserve trans/subsonic velocity, a bit like a coffee mug that is only insulated at the bottom third to keep the dregs warm.  The boat tail is thus for target bullets or for long range sniper bullets (where instant kill vs wounding vs slow kill is less important) but making an accurate long distance hole is everything.

For subsonic / transsonic loads however, a long boat tail is useful right from the muzzle, and a round nose better as it keeps centre of gravity forwards, something that is hard to do with a spitzer shaped for supersonic flight.  The "ideal" subsonic hunting projectile is thus similar in shape to a Berger VLD flying backwards!

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## rewa

Re our new Army "Guns", didnt we see a similar thing with the Steyr ? They demonstrated a well-made (..ish) German one, then supplied us with crap made elsewhere. I'll bet the demo-models were well-crafted, In-House,in The States, not Mexico

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## gonetropo

Steyr is austrian not german

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## csmiffy

> Holy Grail


 @systolic
Either the only one who got it or the only one who felt like responding.
Good job and the knights of Ni salute you.

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## Paddy79

Smart warfare is to wound not kill. It ties up more resources, an inaccurate gun is more likely to Wound not KILL

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## Cordite

> Steyr is Austrian not German


  @gonetropo

So was Herr Hitler.  Austria is a Germanic country, just as Sweden is a Scandinavian country.  The central point is basically accurate: you should expect German quality from Austria.

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## Micky Duck

yes and no...... wounded guys can still shoot back. if youve ever seen what a tumbling .223 round does when it hits flesh (as the origonal design called for them to do) it sort of blows that whole theory out of the water...... the yellow packet norinco .223 make a hell of a mess of wallaby sized game...can see the resistance level being much more. Ive skinned out wallabies with holes big enough to stick your whole arm in using them.... and if you watch the way some people shoot it would be just as dangerous to not be what they were aiming at.... accurate is only as good as the plonker pointing the thing LOL.

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## Max Headroom

I once talked to a guy who was ex British army, must've left around the time they were changing from SLR to L85. He had his doubts about the power of the 5.56 round. 

His verdict:"I don't like this idea of shooting people gently"

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## 300CALMAN

> @Cowboy06
> 
> Correct, but only at the _end_ of the bullet's useful flight path, therefore it is not quite correct to state that a flat base spitzer will lose velocity and energy 'a lot quicker' than a boat tail.
> 
> There is no advantage from boat tail bullets at ethical hunting distances, only disadvantage, if you never need to shoot animals more than half a K away.  (OK, boat tails are easier to seat when reloading, but really!)
> 
> At supersonic speeds the front ogive is what matters in reducing velocity loss.  The lead and copper going into forming the boat tail is better used for forming a longer ogive at the front of the bullet when hunting distances are involved.  To increase your supersonic range, you need a long slender spitzer more than a boat tail.
> 
> Boat tail spitzers only have significantly lower drag than flat bottom spitzers once they both have slowed to transsonic/subsonic velocity. Only at that point do boat tails really start showing significantly less velocity drop than the equivalent weight spitzers.  But note, the boat tail only helps conserve trans/subsonic velocity, a bit like a coffee mug that is only insulated at the bottom third to keep the dregs warm.  The boat tail is thus for target bullets or for long range sniper bullets (where instant kill vs wounding vs slow kill is less important) but making an accurate long distance hole is everything.
> ...


I thought a boat tail design can improve your BC over all velocities. Not a big issue at very short range but a low bc will sap bullet energy from the muzle. Have a look at the BCs for identically weighted projectiles of different design... However nothing is free, unfortunately making light projectiles with a spire point and boat tail can leave little bearing surface, I think that's some rifles hate Berger projectiles.

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## systolic

> Re our new Army "Guns", didnt we see a similar thing with the Steyr ? They demonstrated a well-made (..ish) German one, then supplied us with crap made elsewhere. I'll bet the demo-models were well-crafted, In-House,in The States, not Mexico


The trials rifles and the first batches delivered to NZ were Austrian made by Steyr.

The rest were made in Australia, as was always intended as the Australians were making them for their military. Some plastic parts were made in New Zealand. Wanganui possibly. NZ was always going to get the vast majority of the Steyr rifles from Australia.

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## GDMP

Most of the early problems with the Steyr,I am reliably told,were with the Lithgow made rifles.The Austrian made ones,the initial batch,were good to go.Lithgow asked for and were granted a significant number of minor changes to the original specs, and this is where a lot of the problems stemmed from.As for the new LMT rifles maybe the defence force should have just got Norinco's....would have cost a lot less and at least they have decent firing pins in them....

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## Micky Duck

> I once talked to a guy who was ex British army, must've left around the time they were changing from SLR to L85. He had his doubts about the power of the 5.56 round. 
> 
> His verdict:"I don't like this idea of shooting people gently"


nobody in thier right mind would claim the 5.56 is BETTER than the 7.62 (.223 Vs .308) and the SLR is a proven preformer....you could say same thing of the .303 brit the preceded it too. 100rounds of .223 is easy to carry as its small and light....... the other two,not so much.

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## outlander

> @systolic
> Either the only one who got it or the only one who felt like responding.
> Good job and the knights of Ni salute you.


The Knights of Ni... huh, indeed.

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## Cordite

> I thought a boat tail design can improve your BC over all velocities. Not a big issue at very short range but a low bc will sap bullet energy from the muzle. Have a look at the BCs for identically weighted projectiles of different design... However nothing is free, unfortunately making light projectiles with a spire point and boat tail can leave little bearing surface, I think that's some rifles hate Berger projectiles.


  @300CALMAN

Yes, agree BT helps at all velocities, less at the beginning.

The berger VLD reminds me of the .303 mk VIIIz bullet, which was designed for extended range MG fire.  Less bearing surface (look below at the narrow parralel portion, and cannelure further forwards - they would be far off the rifling when chambered) lovely spire, boat tail to boot.  Hate to think of how it did in variable-throated variable headspaced LE rifles - but accuracy is no concern with MGs if you get an extra Km max range!

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## Proudkiwi

> @Cowboy06
> 
> Correct, but only at the _end_ of the bullet's useful flight path, therefore it is not quite correct to state that a flat base spitzer will lose velocity and energy 'a lot quicker' than a boat tail.
> 
> There is no advantage from boat tail bullets at ethical hunting distances, only disadvantage, if you never need to shoot animals more than half a K away.  (OK, boat tails are easier to seat when reloading, but really!)
> 
> At supersonic speeds the front ogive is what matters in reducing velocity loss.  The lead and copper going into forming the boat tail is better used for forming a longer ogive at the front of the bullet when hunting distances are involved.  To increase your supersonic range, you need a long slender spitzer more than a boat tail.
> 
> Boat tail spitzers only have significantly lower drag than flat bottom spitzers once they both have slowed to transsonic/subsonic velocity. Only at that point do boat tails really start showing significantly less velocity drop than the equivalent weight spitzers.  But note, the boat tail only helps conserve trans/subsonic velocity, a bit like a coffee mug that is only insulated at the bottom third to keep the dregs warm.  The boat tail is thus for target bullets or for long range sniper bullets (where instant kill vs wounding vs slow kill is less important) but making an accurate long distance hole is everything.
> ...


Im not sure your understanding of BC is as strong as you think it is.

Drag is drag so its entirely accurate to state that a flat base spitzer will lose velocity and energy faster than a boat tail.

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## rewa

Re the .223-round, it was chosen for a bunch of reasons mentioned here already; to wound as mentioned;and tie-up more resources, again   as mentioned ,for weight of ammo and ability to carry more, plus a lot of pressure from other countries to standardise (for obvious reasons). I dont think they even considered the long-range effect of tumbling projo's, on size of wound-channels etc., as pointed-out on here also. There was a general mindset, that conflicts were going to be more close-up and personal (fek knows why) and they got proved wrong in the Middle-East, with longer range needed. It surprises me that they've stayed with the caliber, as they were openly discussing the need to go back to a larger caliber. Other countries have already done just that, I guess they dont want to turn up at a "Venue", with the Wrong-Bat

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## 300CALMAN

> @300CALMAN
> 
> Yes, agree BT helps at all velocities, less at the beginning.
> 
> The berger VLD reminds me of the .303 mk VIIIz bullet, which was designed for extended range MG fire.  Less bearing surface (look below at the narrow parralel portion, and cannelure further forwards - they would be far off the rifling when chambered) lovely spire, boat tail to boot.  Hate to think of how it did in variable-throated variable headspaced LE rifles - but accuracy is no concern with MGs if you get an extra Km max range!
> 
> Attachment 95511


Yes accuracy is apparently not a big issue with MGs, the story as i understand it was the BREN was considered to accurate too produce an acceptable beaten zone? Please someone who knows more correct me...

Unfortunately drag is drag, light high velocity projectiles which bleed velocity will loose terminal effect quickly.

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## 300CALMAN

> Re the .223-round, it was chosen for a bunch of reasons mentioned here already; to wound as mentioned;and tie-up more resources, again   as mentioned ,for weight of ammo and ability to carry more, plus a lot of pressure from other countries to standardise (for obvious reasons). I dont think they even considered the long-range effect of tumbling projo's, on size of wound-channels etc., as pointed-out on here also. There was a general mindset, that conflicts were going to be more close-up and personal (fek knows why) and they got proved wrong in the Middle-East, with longer range needed. It surprises me that they've stayed with the caliber, as they were openly discussing the need to go back to a larger caliber. Other countries have already done just that, I guess they dont want to turn up at a "Venue", with the Wrong-Bat


I guess you can't argue with the weight and capacity arguments. But everything is a trade off, ever carried 200 rounds of 5.56 link??? Well 7.62 link is a shit load heavier but if some sod is trying to RPG you from 800 m I bet you will be glad you brought that and not the 5.56.

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## Tankd

Why is it this "Wounding " myth keeps rearing its ugly head ? . Sheer logic shows it to be a load of rubbish . If you win a battle , and gain the field , do you not end up with all ( or most ) of the wounded enemy and therefore lumbering the victor with the burden of their care ?????? . :3 8 14:

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## 300CALMAN

> Why is it this "Wounding " myth keeps rearing its ugly head ? . Sheer logic shows it to be a load of rubbish . If you win a battle , and gain the field , do you not end up with all ( or most ) of the wounded enemy and therefore lumbering the victor with the burden of their care ?????? .


Haha and if you "Wound" someone with their finger on a suicide belt button.

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## ZG47

> @300CALMAN
> 
> Yes, agree BT helps at all velocities, less at the beginning.
> 
> The berger VLD reminds me of the .303 mk VIIIz bullet, which was designed for extended range MG fire.  Less bearing surface (look below at the narrow parralel portion, and cannelure further forwards - they would be far off the rifling when chambered) lovely spire, boat tail to boot.  Hate to think of how it did in variable-throated variable headspaced LE rifles - but accuracy is no concern with MGs if you get an extra Km max range!
> 
> Attachment 95511


Mk VIIIz was for belt-fed machine guns only. It was developed to compete with the 7.92x57 IS sS load, introduced by the Germans in either 1917 or 1918 (cannot remember which, right now).

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## ZG47

> Yes accuracy is apparently not a big issue with MGs, the story as i understand it was the BREN was considered to accurate too produce an acceptable beaten zone? Please someone who knows more correct me...
> 
> Unfortunately drag is drag, light high velocity projectiles which bleed velocity will loose terminal effect quickly.


Accuracy is necessary for accurate support fire during flank attack. The Bren and ZB26 are apparently very good in this situation. The MG34 vehicle mount guns and MG42 ground mount guns were reportedly ideal for mowing down soldiers crossing narrow streets and great for suppressive fire, so long as the ammo supply held out BUT I have heard a claim that they were not sufficiently accurate in the offensive role. I have just acquired a copy of Captain Shore’s book about sniping post D-Day in Europe. He reportedly makes some comments about the German machine guns but I have yet to sit down and read the book from cover to cover.

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## faregame

The days of gentlemanly warfare have changed in the last 20 years
The Geneva convention was signed in the days of people playing tag I’m out rather I’m going to get you anyway tag away we have now in a lot of conflicts - the ideas of wounding and extra resources don’t apply

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## Luke556

Replace the MARs firing pins by replacing the entire upper with this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BDyA6I2Ovk
Sh#t while we're at it may as well put a Geissele trigger in as well

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## Konev

> Why is it this "Wounding " myth keeps rearing its ugly head ? . Sheer logic shows it to be a load of rubbish . If you win a battle , and gain the field , do you not end up with all ( or most ) of the wounded enemy and therefore lumbering the victor with the burden of their care ?????? .


yeah it still confuses me.

223 was supposed to tumble on impact till the twist rate was cahnged and turned it into a needle shooter. the 'wound' excuse was to cover uip the stuff up. reality is a wounded solider will come back a bit smarter. a dead solider stays dead.

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## Tankd

The wounding "idea " probably was more a result of the turn of the 19 th century . Whereby people where supposedly "Enlightened " as to humanity , and there was an attempt to enshrine it into the Hague Convention ? . Unfortunately they found that spitzer projectile tumbled on impact after having to discard there soft points .
      I love the " The days of gentlemanly warfare have changed in the last 20 years " , the reason Gentlemen , officers , where introduced to Warfare was to limit the killing by bringing some order to the so called soldiers who where generally made up from the dregs and prisons . Some Officers feared their men more than the enemy .

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## Cordite

> Im not sure your understanding of BC is as strong as you think it is.
> 
> Drag is drag so its entirely accurate to state that a flat base spitzer will lose velocity and energy faster than a boat tail.


  @Proudkiwi

I agree.

What I'm specifically I'm talking about in terms of BC is that BC is not fixed for a given bullet, but BC varies according to the velocity the bullet is traveling at.  Causes of drag are made up in different proportions at different velocities as the bullet goes slower and slower, front drag predominant at the fast outset, tail drag dominant at the slower ending.

Both spire tip and boat tail do act in overcoming drag all the way. The spire tip is the star at the speedy beginning of the bullet's travel, and the boat tail gets its own Oscar at the final part of the journey. But for short journeys, as envisaged for say the 7.62x39, the added complication of a boat tail may not be considered worthwhile in an agricultural implement like the AK.  If you have a fine rifle that is sterling at handling Berger VLDs, you however have no reason not to use boat tails for work at any range.

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## Moa Hunter

> Im not sure your understanding of BC is as strong as you think it is.
> 
> Drag is drag so its entirely accurate to state that a flat base spitzer will lose velocity and energy faster than a boat tail.


Drag is a drag, but so is the friction / resistance of the air, which is greater the faster the bullet goes. My understanding is that a really pointy design will have less frictional resistance. As the bullet slows to subsonic speed it is the force of gravity that has more effect and all bullets are about the same because of time of flight is the same.

On a more important note where can I buy one of the ex service Steyrs ??

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## Toby132

> Re our new Army "Guns", didnt we see a similar thing with the Steyr ? They demonstrated a well-made (..ish) German one, then supplied us with crap made elsewhere. I'll bet the demo-models were well-crafted, In-House,in The States, not Mexico


Apparently, they had army armourers inspecting all of the guns before they even left the factory and were shipped to NZ

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## ChrisF

They should have gone to a proven military sized company ? , not a small custom shop , they donot have the experience of the bigger/older arms companies , ie  FN , HK , Sig Colt Canada .

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## Walker

From contact on the 'ground', a small batch of pins were incorrectly heat treated, so instead of suck it and see the whole lot are being replaced gratis. Those bigger companies still make the same sort of mistakes but will just say 'so what?' On the world stage NZ's requirements are less then some private security companies.
 Oh and the reason for the 1:7 twist is for the 223 tracer round.

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## Max Headroom

By comparison with the British L85 or the Indian INSAS, the problems outlined so far are small. Even the G36 has it's issues when hot.

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## Sasquatch

Didn't the G36 get canned by the German military last year?

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## 300CALMAN

> From contact on the 'ground', a small batch of pins were incorrectly heat treated, so instead of suck it and see the whole lot are being replaced gratis. Those bigger companies still make the same sort of mistakes but will just say 'so what?' On the world stage NZ's requirements are less then some private security companies.
>  Oh and the reason for the 1:7 twist is for the 223 tracer round.


Dam that's right 1:7 twist is for tracer. Twist is about the length of the bullet.

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## Max Headroom

> Didn't the G36 get canned by the German military last year?


Wikipedia says it will be phased out from 2020

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## Square22

Who sells the Civvy  LMT rifles in NZ? Is there an importer?

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## Tommy

> Who sells the Civvy  LMT rifles in NZ? Is there an importer?


All private imports so far as I know

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## 300CALMAN

The story on 1:7 twist and the new M855A1 ammo.

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