# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Firearm Storage Requirements

## rs200nz

curly question for you guys.  I have my E endorsement which obviously requires me to keep my rifle in an 'E" Endorsed safe and store ammo separately etc.   No problem at all.

What happens when I decide to go up north to my in-laws farm and do some possum culling.  Where do I store the rifle while away as it won't be in an 'E' endorsed safe that has been approved in my house?  I guess this applies to A cat gear as well as it needs to be locked in your house.  

Wondered what your thoughts were? 

Cheers.

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## 10-Ring

Good question. 

Strictly speaking I should imagine you'd have to keep the E Cat firearm with you the entire time. Highly impractical though if you wanted to go out to a restaurant for dinner or such with the in-laws. An Cat firearm could be stored in an A Cat safe at the in-laws if they have one.

Basically, the same situation arises when you may be away hunting and staying in a hut.

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## Cyclops

If I recall correctly I was advised you have to take all reasonable steps.

I have a hard case for an A cat rifle. The case gets padlocked and locked to a heavy chain which is in turn locked to attachment points in the vehicle. 
Bolt and ammunition stored separately.  Bolt taken with me when I leave the vehicle.  Locked case taken indoors where I am staying.

This is more than I see a lot of shooters doing.

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## kidmac42

I parked at supermarket the other day, looked over at ute next to me. Saw full gun bag on passenger seat, door unlocked and no one in sight. If I was inclined it would have been too easy to pinch

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## rs200nz

> If I recall correctly I was advised you have to take all reasonable steps.
> 
> I have a hard case for an A cat rifle. The case gets padlocked and locked to a heavy chain which is in turn locked to attachment points in the vehicle. 
> Bolt and ammunition stored separately.  Bolt taken with me when I leave the vehicle.  Locked case taken indoors where I am staying.
> 
> This is more than I see a lot of shooters doing.


Thanks for the post

Tried looking through the arms code in more detail but can't see anything.   I do recall something about taking reasonable steps but there really isn't anything defined but possibly i'm not looking in the correct spot.   The house I would be going to has no safe or storage as they don't have firearms.  Interesting....

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## rs200nz

> Good question. 
> 
> Strictly speaking I should imagine you'd have to keep the E Cat firearm with you the entire time. Highly impractical though if you wanted to go out to a restaurant for dinner or such with the in-laws. An Cat firearm could be stored in an A Cat safe at the in-laws if they have one.
> 
> Basically, the same situation arises when you may be away hunting and staying in a hut.


That would look great at the dinner table haha.  Me sitting there rocking backwards and forwards haha

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## JRW87

I thought you werent allowed to leave a firearm unattended in a vehicle. Mine gets padlocked to the bedframe when Im up at my inlaws.

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## rs200nz

> I parked at supermarket the other day, looked over at ute next to me. Saw full gun bag on passenger seat, door unlocked and no one in sight. If I was inclined it would have been too easy to pinch


Gezz that's bad!!  I hope to never come across someone like that in the bush.  Probably just as ruthless with their identification!

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## Cyclops

The Arms Codes says *"Licence holders must take reasonable steps to secure firearms against theft."* and *"Never leaving your firearm in an unattended vehicle."*

The second statement is very impractical. It would mean that you carried your firearm into the petrol station when paying for fuel or café when getting a coffee. If it is in a case it might not cause too much concern but it would be most unusual to see this done.

I focus on the first statement and (as I said above) the reasonable steps one can take.

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## Banana

_‘Unattended’ means no-one is in, near or able to watch the vehicle._

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## Banana

Arms Regulations 1992 (SR 1992/346) (as at 11 December 2013) 19 Conditions relating to security precautions &ndash; New Zealand Legislation 

Arms Regulations 1992 (SR 1992/346) (as at 11 December 2013) 28 Security precautions in relation to pistols, military style semi-automatic firearms, and restricted weapons &ndash; New Zealand Legislation

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## Cyclops

> _‘Unattended’ means no-one is in, near or able to watch the vehicle._


If you're in a queue paying for fuel &/or coffee you won't be watching your vehicle, not with the design of most petrol station forecourts.

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## Banana

_...able to watch the vehicle_

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## Trevs

I'll take my with me into the supermarket than leave it unattented in the vehicle. Good thing about an AR it can be broken down to fit into a backpack. Be interesting if they ask to do a bag check

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## kidmac42

If I had to, it would be covered, out of sight from the outside of vehicle, and vehicle fully closed and locked. But I don't leave my shootas unattended anywhere anytime. It just blew my mind that some people don't care bout the 'what if' senarios that can and do happen

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## Tommy

If me and my mate go to the range we usually stop for a snack at the hippy supermarket in Kumeu, we take turns going in or one of us lurks in the shade watching the car. Imagine some dropkick with your gun, imagine having to make that call to the police... Fuck that. 

As far as the E visit goes, I'm not a holder myself. The lower is the actual 'E' part? How long does it take to break down and pack into a small bag to take with you? You've jumped through some hoops to get the license, why not make a roll/bag/case for the important bits or something?

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## GravelBen

> I have a hard case for an A cat rifle. The case gets padlocked and locked to a heavy chain which is in turn locked to attachment points in the vehicle. 
> Bolt and ammunition stored separately.  Bolt taken with me when I leave the vehicle. Locked case taken indoors where I am staying.


I generally do the same thing, though with an alarmed cable lock rather than a chain and if I'm not using a hard case I thread the cable through the action. Also have those little action padlock things which live on the rifles when they aren't in use - might not stop a determined thief for too long, but for the small effort it takes I may as well put off any potential opportunists as well as covering them up and locking the car (which also has an alarm). Almost sounds a bit over the top now!

At a friends bach we used to stay in when shooting there was no gun safe, but there was a table made of solid 3-4" thick timber which we chained the guns to the supports of, that seemed safe enough.

All A-Cat though, not sure about any specific E-Cat requirements.

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## screamO

It's just another one of our horrible laws which is open to interpretation. I think I would much rather leave my gun in the car (no bolt) than walk into a shop with a gun even if it's broken down and in a backpack, imagine if some thing happened in the shop and someone searched your bag.....criminal intend comes to mind. No no officer I just didn't want to leave my gun in the car.
I'm still a big fan of, I shouldn't have to lock my car, house or anything.... if it's not yours don't fu#kin touch it, I know this isn't real life anymore but I still like to work on a handshake and a man's word.
As far as a gun goes being left at your in laws with no safe, if you have removed the bolt and taken it with you and the worst happens and someone steels the gun they are still buggered for a while until they get a new bolt.
Isn't our gun safety at home more to insure children don't get access?

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## Jexla

Yeah, love to see what the police would say if they caught you with an AR in your backpack.
I remember this question coming up at my mountain safety course and what the guys there suggested is that bolt hidden and gun locked in the car is sufficient.
Problem with our gun laws is that it's EXTREMELY open to interpretation and we need to push for all these things to be laid out plain as daylight, almost every situation explained, there's nothing worse for locking up law abiding citizens than confusing legislation.
Another problem being is they made this legislation very open ended on purpose so they can use it how they see fit.

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## Kscott

> The Arms Codes says *"Licence holders must take reasonable steps to secure firearms against theft."* and *"Never leaving your firearm in an unattended vehicle."*
> 
> The second statement is very impractical. It would mean that you carried your firearm into the petrol station when paying for fuel or café when getting a coffee.


No.

If you choose to visit a petrol station with your firearm in your vehicle it's up to you to take all reasonable steps against theft.

Its your choice to visit a petrol station. Or a bank. Or a supermarket with your firearm. Because you want to go to these places.

No one is forcing you to take your firearm with you when you choose to visit these places.

You choose.

And you choose to accept the consequences of your actions. Because you're an adult.

It works for everyone, whether it's an A cat sitting in the vehicle, or an E cat tucked in the boot.

As to the OP, if you want to use an E cat, store in E cat suitable security. B Cat has a Memorandum of Understanding with the Police, designed for shooters who travel with with pistol but I've yet to met a B cat owner who leaves their pistol unlocked in a bag, in an unlocked car. Dunno, maybe I just don't circulate in the same circle of people of people who just throw their firearms into a car for shits 'n giggles...

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## JRW87

> No.
> 
> If you choose to visit a petrol station with your firearm in your vehicle it's up to you to take all reasonable steps against theft.
> 
> Its your choice to visit a petrol station. Or a bank. Or a supermarket with your firearm. Because you want to go to these places.
> 
> No one is forcing you to take your firearm with you when you choose to visit these places.
> 
> You choose.
> ...


Thats the way I interperet it, I drive to where Im shooting and I drive back and lock up my firearms if Im by myself. If I am with others then they can go in while I wait in the vehicle.

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## GravelBen

> Its your choice to visit a petrol station.


I dunno, you might be going hunting somewhere that is far enough away from home that you need to refuel on the way. Not much choice about stopping at a petrol station then is there.

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## Kscott

Well to be pedantic, which the law is, yes you've made the choice to do that. Problem is the law, and people, can't be predicted for every possible set of circumstances.

Leaving a firearm unattended in a car, especially unlocked, in a public area is simply a no no. It would be no different to leaving it on the dining room table in a mates house while you're out the back having a barbi.

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## Survy

To sum it up.

Time, place, circumstance.

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## Savage1

Wow people over analyse, use simple common sense.

People look too far into things and complain that it's open to interpretation, no it's actually pretty simple.

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## Danny

Well said, people can never be predicted for every set of circumstances. Ever. Go spend a late shift out in an I car and see what I mean.

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## GravelBen

> Leaving a firearm unattended in a car, especially unlocked, in a public area is simply a no no. It would be no different to leaving it on the dining room table in a mates house while you're out the back having a barbi.


I wouldn't leave the car unlocked with firearms in it anywhere unless I'm in or right by the car, but I'm more than happy to go inside a petrol station with firearms out of sight inside a locked, alarmed car.

Most of them have big windows that you can see the car from anyway, so really its more like leaving it under a bed in a house with all the doors locked and a burglar alarm set, while you're outside having a barbie and looking through the window.

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## Jexla

> Wow people over analyse, use simple common sense.
> 
> People look too far into things and complain that it's open to interpretation, no it's actually pretty simple.


You come here say people do this that, have nothing to actually contribute, why are you here?

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## smidey

Locks only keep honest people out, in a car or house they count for jack shit. Hidden from sight to prevent the opportunist, locked to slow down semi determined but if a determined thief knows something is there and he wants it, its only a matter of time before he gets it I think

Sent from my workbench

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## 308

> You come here say people do this that, have nothing to actually contribute, why are you here?


You know Savage is a cop, right?

Personally I follow KScott and Cyclops' level of security which I think is reasonable
The rule I follow for B-cat is go straight to the range and straight back unless I'm going to a gunsmith.

Maybe I'm a bit too secret squirrel but I like to load firearms into and out of my vehicle in the privacy of my garage without nosy neighbours looking.

It's either that or pretend I'm carrying a bass guitar in the hard case - girls like guitarists..

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## 10-Ring

> .......The rule I follow for B-cat is go straight to the range and straight back unless I'm going to a gunsmith.....


That's the requirement for B-cat and it must be in a stout lockable container while being transported.

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## Jexla

> You know Savage is a cop, right?


Honestly, that makes no difference, if ANYONE no matter what their profession may be comes here and says something that puts others down and adds no contribution or solid reasoning for it, I will ask them the exact same question, he doesn't get special treatment.

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## rs200nz

Thanks for the info guys.  I guess just try and secure as much as possible and never let it out of my sight.   :Have A Nice Day:   Cheers, Looks like I may have opened a can of worms  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Moutere

> Honestly, that makes no difference, if ANYONE no matter what their profession may be comes here and says something that puts others down and adds no contribution or solid reasoning for it, I will ask them the exact same question, he doesn't get special treatment.


No, what you wrote was a put down.
Savage might have pointed out a fact about people being over analytical, but it was not directed at anyone in particular. His suggestion to use 'common sense' was spot on. Funny, as I see that seems to have been the basis of the OPs solution.

Chill.

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## 10-Ring

> Honestly, that makes no difference, if ANYONE no matter what their profession may be comes here and says something that puts others down and adds no contribution or solid reasoning for it, I will ask them the exact same question, he doesn't get special treatment.


I don't think Savage was putting anyone down. He has a right to express his opinion too and I agree with him that common sense should be paramount with regard to the firearms safety code. We all know the basic seven rules of firearm safety or should do.

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## Kscott

> ...Looks like I may have opened a can of worms


Nah, just another typical forum thread, goes in a weird direction after 3 posts - it's in the rules !

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## Jexla

> People look too far into things and complain that it's open to interpretation, no it's actually pretty simple.


His comment was directly pointed at me, I'm the one that said the legislation is open to interpretation.

Moutere, please quote the put down that you claim.

10-Ring, the question here isn't that commonsense should be paramount or not, that's obvious it should, but that's not always how the police see it and people need to remember that to avoid getting themselves in trouble when unnecessary.

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## Moutere

> You come here say people do this that, have nothing to actually contribute, why are you here?


But it's starting to get off topic now.

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## 10-Ring

> His comment was directly pointed at me, I'm the one that said the legislation is open to interpretation.


Bear in mind though, that is your interpretation of Savage's comment and may not be correct.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Savage1

> Yeah, love to see what the police would say if they caught you with an AR in your backpack.
> I remember this question coming up at my mountain safety course and what the guys there suggested is that bolt hidden and gun locked in the car is sufficient.
> Problem with our gun laws is that it's EXTREMELY open to interpretation and we need to push for all these things to be laid out plain as daylight, almost every situation explained, there's nothing worse for locking up law abiding citizens than confusing legislation.
> Another problem being is they made this legislation very open ended on purpose so they can use it how they see fit.


We'll since you're making such a big deal out of my comment and over analysing it, and somehow thinking that it constituted a put down,

The Arms Act is actually one of the easiest to understand and follow, you throw out a broad sweeping statement that it is "extremely open to interpretation", which is simply just your opinion, which in my experience is completely untrue especially when compared to other most other commonly used legislation. People such as yourself decide to exaggerate one section or subsection, often without looking at relevant case law or even the interpretation section of the act, and state the whole act is poorly written, which I disagree with.

You know what I would say if I came across a person with a ar broken down at in his backpack because he had no way to reasonably secure it in his vehicle and had to quickly nip into a shop? We'll it wouldn't be anything bad because he had taken reasonable and responsible steps to ensure the security of his firearm in the circumstances, the last thing I'd be doing is arresting him and putting him before the courts, I imagine the judge would throw it out and rightfully so as I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be an offence as he had a reasonable and responsible reason for being in possession of the firearm in the circumstances. It would get messy and awkward if it was on show though. Have a read of the solicitor general's prosecution guidelines.

I'm not sure where you get the "legislation very open ended so they can use it how they see fit". It's actually quite simple. 

You're missing the forest for the trees.

The last thing police want to be doing is locking up good people for silly stuff, the limited resources are better off directed elsewhere.

This is all just my personal opinion, as your post is yours. Neither really holds any more value than the other persons, unless you're a judge, then you win hands down. 

Is that a contribution?

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## Jexla

I appreciate the reply, and I applaud you for thinking as you do.
Problem being, you're a firearms user outside of the police force and that means you understand the problems that we can come across.
The same cannot be said for every other police officer, some who don't even know the laws themselves. There have been countless examples on this forum and others of police failing to understand and using the wording of the legislation to how they see fit.
One example as of recently, which I will link for reference is where the police took a mans firearm and firearms licence from him for shooting claybird with his shotgun in a rural area on private property.
There were no charges (yet?) and he has had his belongings taken from him.

Link: http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...i-stand-18527/




> ....the Sargent was asking the questions like who was shooting who's gun as who has the fal, she asked how the gun got here and I stated it got here in my ute and she asked if I had a secure lock up in my vehicle for it, to which I said you can carry a gun in a vehicle not loaded breach open for shotgun, she looked at me dead in the eyes and paused for a minute to which I know I was right


Then the Sarg asks him if he had a secure lockup in his ute for it to get it there, now all of us know that's not necessary to transport an A class firearm, but the Sarg didn't seem to.

This is one recent example of many, I'm not going to say you're wrong about anything Savage, but I will say I disagree about the arms act being written very clearly.
I hope if I ever have an encounter with the police related to me using my firearms lawfully it's with you or someone as knowledgeable as you about firearms.

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## Moutere

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...i-stand-18527/
Personally, my 'opinion' is that there is 3 sides to that particular story. I don't think it's necessarily a clear cut example of poor policing.
The other Nelson incident from the media is the only other one that comes to mind and I can't remember the outcome there. I don't really think that constitutes 'many examples'. However, there may be some support for the argument regarding regional differences in securing a safe.

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## stretch

Here's another curly scenario: what if FAL holder lives the house-bus / campervan lifestyle? Their home where they store their firearm(s) is also a vehicle. What, if any, security arrangements would be acceptable for him/her to be able to legally leave his vehicle/home unattended with firearm(s) secured inside?

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## 10-Ring

> Here's another curly scenario: what if FAL holder lives the house-bus / campervan lifestyle? Their home where they store their firearm(s) is also a vehicle. What, if any, security arrangements would be acceptable for him/her to be able to legally leave his vehicle/home unattended with firearm(s) secured inside?


Good question.

You covered it in your last few words, "secured inside". The FAL holder would have to have adequate security in his motorhome/caravan. That would be either a gun cabinet or a gun rack that meets the required security criteria. Doubt whether a strong room would be a viable option.

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## Kscott

Ask Mr Richard Lincoln when he was living in a house bus in ChCh. I can't remember the exact details on the court case but by memory it hinged around his E Cat application and security - and how which comes 1st.

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## Ayejay

If you have another safe at a bach are you required to inform the local arms officer that it is there? The firearms would only be there when on holiday.

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## 308

Common sense would say that you keep your firearms with you and store them in an appropriate safe in your bach too - E-cat firearms in an E-cat safe; A-cat firearms in an A-cat safe, etc

The thing I'm having trouble with is keeping an E-cat safe in my tent when I go out hunting

I think I need a bigger tent and that thing is getting heavy







> If you have another safe at a bach are you required to inform the local arms officer that it is there? The firearms would only be there when on holiday.

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## steven

Un-attended vehicle not out of view.  So if its locked while in the petrol station in full view of you all the time I dont see an issue.  There will be a camera and you can ring the police immediately from safety.  I mean if you are stopped at a zebra crossing and someone pulls open the door and takes out the gun what exactly can you do?

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## Savage1

> I've often wondered how the constabulary get on when leaving a vehicle unattended.  After all, their place of work is said vehicle, and they store the tools of the trade in it.  There's an unanswered question here as to the application of the law on firearms storage in vehicles, warrant from the queen be damned.
> 
> If it's good enough for them to store their tools inside a specially designed and secured and locked storage container securely fixed to the vehicle, why can't the rest of us get approval to do it?  Would make life a damn sight easier on long, multi-hour trips especially if you are say, hopping the divide between the islands and parking on the ferry etc.  
> 
> Aussie has it, as well as several other jurisdictions and it just seems to work in those.


The Police are exempt from the Arms Act if I recall correctly, however the lock boxes in the vehicles are very secure.

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## Kscott

> I've often wondered how the constabulary get on when leaving a vehicle unattended.  After all, their place of work is said vehicle, and they store the tools of the trade in it.  There's an unanswered question here as to the application of the law on firearms storage in vehicles, warrant from the queen be damned.


Police secure their firearms in a lock box. Regardless, in the execution of their duties they have a lot more free range than the public, from using a cellphone to driving above the speed limit. If they break those limits they are prosecuted, but comparing them to the general public activities is a losing battle.

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## 308

Also as regards Pelican cases there are some really cheap and not too shabby knock-off cases going at places like Super Cheap Auto and the like

A chain around the seat and that buys you 5mins against an opportunist thief

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## Yukon

My interpretation of the law regarding the leaving of a firearm in an unattended vehicle is:

You must keep your firearm with you at all time, even if you need to go into a bank, or a restaurant, supermarket or wherever.

You must not pass that firearm to a third party unless they are a firearm license holder

If it is an E cat firearm, you cannot let anyone be in possession of it, unless they have a dealers license.

This strictly follows the letter of the law. However, the letter of the law is open to interpretation until the existence of case law. Has anyone been prosecuted for leaving a firearm in an unattended vehicle? If so, what were the circumstances, and what was the outcome? A magistrate / jury will look at each case individually. Someone leaving a rifle on their front seat whilst ducking into a dairy to buy some fags (settle down you sickos  :Wink:  ), will be treated differently to someone who conceals their firearm whilst doing some banking. But the case law will set the legal precedent for either case. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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## Comfortably_Numb

The above post, with the line " you must keep your firearm with you at all times, even if you go into a bank"

Can you imagine waltzing into the bank with an ar15 on your back !!!!
men in black overalls would be all over you.

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## Kscott

Yeah pretty sure the FAL would be revoked for just being a fucking idiot  :Thumbsup:

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## 10-Ring

> My interpretation of the law regarding the leaving of a firearm in an unattended vehicle is:
> 
> You must keep your firearm with you at all time, even if you need to go into a bank, or a restaurant, supermarket or wherever..


 * Arms Act 1983*

51 Unlawful carriage or possession in public place of firearm, airgun, pistol, ammunition, explosive, or restricted weapon

(1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $4,000 or to both who, except for some lawful purpose,

(a) carries in a public place; or

(b) has in his possession in any public place any firearm, airgun, pistol, ammunition, explosive, or restricted weapon.

(2) In any prosecution for an offence against subsection (1), in which it is proved that the defendant was carrying in any public place or had in his possession in any public place any firearm, airgun, pistol, ammunition, explosive, or restricted weapon, the burden of proving the existence of some lawful purpose shall lie on the defendant.

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## Comfortably_Numb

Burden of proof.

That would also depened on the officer at the scene, would it not?
Pot kuck with the right or wrong officer.

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## Jexla

> Burden of proof.
> 
> That would also depened on the officer at the scene, would it not?
> Pot kuck with the right or wrong officer.


Yes as it's up to the officer whether he presses charges or not.
But there's few town cops who are understanding towards firearms, there's a reason my AO doesn't let them sign our mail order forms.

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## 10-Ring

> Burden of proof.
> 
> That would also depened on the officer at the scene, would it not?
> Pot kuck with the right or wrong officer.


I think the burden of proof referred to is after the defendant has been charged with the offense as defined in subsection (1).

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## Kscott

Correct.

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## Danny

> Police secure their firearms in a lock box. Regardless, in the execution of their duties they have a lot more free range than the public, from using a cellphone to driving above the speed limit. If they break those limits they are prosecuted, but comparing them to the general public activities is a losing battle.


And so it should be...

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## Kscott

Easy.

Tell the young one not to use their cellphone while driving unless it's a hands free kit.

If a Police car drove off a cliff, would they ?

News flash - people in authority are human and do shit that annoys others. Teachers, Police, Military, Politicians - the list is endless.

Not all teachers are pedophiles.
Not all Police are rapists.
Not all Military are gun toting bullies.
Not all politicians are liars. Well ok, I lied about that last one :-)

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## MattyP

> I dunno, you might be going hunting somewhere that is far enough away from home that you need to refuel on the way. Not much choice about stopping at a petrol station then is there.


Well, to follow along with Kscott's super anal logic - you should have taken 20 fuel tanks with you just in case such a situation arose  :Psmiley: . But then when you stepped out of your car would you carry the firearm while refilling with one of your 20 tanks, or would you still be in breach of the law by leaving it in a locked car a few cm away?

I do get what he's trying to say, but agree with others that not every situation can be predicted. If the worst thing that ever happens is you have to leave a firearm locked in your car while you go in and pay for your fuel then you're probably doing a lot better than most. If it's a choice between that and carry your rifle in to the servo I think I know what most of us are going to do.

At the end of the day the law can't account for every single possible situation. Some common sense has to be used at some point.

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## rs200nz

> ?  I see an officer driving a marked car through a roundabout yakking on a cellphone at the same time I'm trying to convince a young one that talking on a phone and driving is bad - not a flash look at all.  And, it's not a one off around here - I respect the job they do, but lead by example springs to mind.  If it's urgent they have lights and sirens otherwise set the example and pull the hell over like the rest of the known world...


Yeah unfortunately they are allowed to use the phone while driving while on the job. I don't agree with it either as it is still using up the same amount of concentration etc.   Pretty silly really.

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## 10-Ring

> .....At the end of the day the law can't account for every single possible situation. Some common sense has to be used at some point.


The common sense thing to do if you had to make a quick petrol/diesel stop is to make sure any firearm is covered up and the car is locked. If you had to answer the call of nature then ask the staff to watch your vehicle in your absence.

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