# Hunting > Hunting >  Kaimanawa Forest Park

## kawekakid

Rangipo intake road, State Highway 1 has got a gate coming ,posts are in and reduced access

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## Russian 22.

probably won't stay locked for long once the locals find out.

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## Hunteast

Any of you locals up that way further explain - DOC comment? I used to do alot of sika hunting down that road in my day. Pity if another access entry denied - and i don't want to hear access okay for 'walking'. You could use that excuse all over NZ and we would all be alot poorer for it. Not just trampers either.

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## PillowDribbler

There was a pass thru agreement with DOC,just had a look cant find anything about it now.

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## Blackfern

Sounds like waipakahi Rd has a gate as well. Not sure how far from the main road. I did hear a while back that the road crosses private Maori land and that a gate was going up to stop people driving through the private land. Not sure on the specifics though. Any Turangi locals on here might a bit more info?

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## PillowDribbler

Just guessing,i would say that DOC are the catylist for this.

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## Danger Mouse

Wonder how long it will be before it gets attached to a 4wd and pulled down

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## 300CALMAN

> Sounds like waipakahi Rd has a gate as well. Not sure how far from the main road. I did hear a while back that the road crosses private Maori land and that a gate was going up to stop people driving through the private land. Not sure on the specifics though. Any Turangi locals on here might a bit more info?


Can't find anything online but if true DOC are going to cop a crap load of crap, a lot of trampers use this area.

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## XR500

One of THE main access routes into the Kaimanawas for the past 65 years. DoC Will wear a lot of egg on the face if this is correct.

There will be a gate that restricts access to the new building off to the East of the tar sealed Waipakahi road that services the downhill mountainbiking route that comes off the top of the Needles though. Heli access to the top of the track I imagine. WAMS shows a new hut up on the upper bush edge too.

But if the tar sealed road itself has grown a barrier, well, lets say it won't take the locals too long to get imaginative...

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## Blackfern

> One of THE main access routes into the Kaimanawas for the past 65 years. DoC Will wear a lot of egg on the face if this is correct.
> 
> There will be a gate that restricts access to the new building off to the East of the tar sealed Waipakahi road that services the downhill mountainbiking route that comes off the top of the Needles though. Heli access to the top of the track I imagine. WAMS shows a new hut up on the upper bush edge too.
> 
> But if the tar sealed road itself has grown a barrier, well, lets say it won't take the locals too long to get imaginative...


My understanding is that both the rangipo access Rd and the waipakahi Rd have gates being constructed.

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## Hunteast

Next time you locals are passing, take some photos and put them up please.

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## XR500

I may be passing that way tomorrow, and was intending to do just that. 

I'm well aware that there is a large swathe of Maori land (Rangipo Waiu) that separates the Desert road from the Kaimanawa State Forest park. The Waipakahi road was formed during the Tongariro power project development, in the late 1950's/early 1960's. It was a busy place in the 1960's A big concrete batching plant was based down there. I remember a bailey bridge permitting access to the northern bank  of the Waipakahi river.

I would have expected there was some sort of agreement in place with the NZ Forest Service and LINZ (equivalent) to permit the continued access to the park through the Maori land. I would have expected that its successor, DoC continued or improved that agreement...but maybe not.

If what people have said is indeed happening, its a concerning escalation of the reduction in access to public lands. DoC have made it exceedingly hard to park your car out of sight of the Desert road at the Southern access corridor by installing all sorts of elephant traps and chains etc (complete with hidden hidden cameras). Now Waipakahi and Rangipo roads may well be being closed off. Pretty much no easy access to the entire western side of the Kaimanawas. Gonna be some pretty pissed trampers and hunters, given the lack of any discussion or communications from DoC to the Public about this.

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## PillowDribbler

No mention of Tree trunk yet.

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## Hunteast

I use to hunt the Waipakihi Valley accessing the Waipakihi Road early 80's. With the Bailey Bridge in place as stated above could access quite a way further up valley before parking by a stop bank, packs on and away. Sometimes camped at the car park and shot the odd red deer on the flats in spring. I was there when the Bailey Bridge was removed - which reduced vehicle access to a new car park area right next to the river. At the time they were extracting shingle from the Waipakihi river for the nearly finished Tongariro dam, this about 1981. The fishery was distroyed in the process though pockets of good rainbows (3-6lb) remained for another few years until they were fished out leaving tiddlers behind. Before quad bikes were invented spot lighters use to travel by horse back up the valley, then the odd motor bike started. We were woken up a few times with lights over our tent and the sound of motor bikes. Shot my first sika stag in the lower Waipakihi during a winter trip 1981, up an open side stream. Two other hunters turned up and put their dog on the scent before i got to where the stag had stood by the bush - the stag took off into the main river before succumbing to the shot (303 back then). I attempted to float the carcass back to the car - failed so ended up carrying it which weighed even more. Just a young 4 pointer. To lose reasonable access to this side of the Kaimanawa's sounds like greed in the making if true?

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## Shearer

A lot of speculation going on here it seems. Lets not start a witch hunt before we have some facts.

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## XR500

DoC Turangi phone number:   07 384 7106.   Will be ringing them first thing tomorrow to see what they know is going on...

DoC blurb on the Kaimanawa Forest Park still lists the Waipakahi road as one of the access points.

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## 7mmwsm

At a meeting today where it was discussed.
Maori land owners have had a gutsful of how their land and access is being treated. So access is being denied.

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## Woody

That won't stop trepass or poaching. There will be another agenda.

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## 7mmwsm

It's the shit getting dumped there that's the issue.

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## XR500

I get that, but that's not a unique situation. I live on a rural road that has almost zero 'tourist' traffic, and the crap and carcasses and bottles and nappies and sofas on the side of the road beggars belief. WTF do these (local FFS!) people creating all this crap have that passes for brains???

If that's happened, its a sorry day for CNI trampers and hunters

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## 7mmwsm

Yeah sure. But it's privately owned property and if the owners don't like the behaviour, they shut the gate.
Just like most of us would.
As always, the minority mess it up for the rest.

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## Rem260

Are the roads not public roads?

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## 7mmwsm

I must not be or they wouldn't be allowed to block the road.

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## XR500

Well, a sign of the times. You now can't call a DoC regional centre...all calls get vetted ooops, I mean transferred through to a National call centre. I think the give away initially was the recorded message asking if this call was about a seal sighting...Not too many seals in Turangi!!!

Bottom line, couldn't contact the appropriate staff, will give me a call back. Will see how that goes.

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## Tahr

30 0r so years ago Kaimanawa Road (access to Umukarikari and Urchin) was gated and the owners introduced a permit system. Neither lasted very long. The gate for obvious reasons and I think the permit system was too administratively cumbersome for the owners to maintain.

I thought at the time though that it was an indication of what might be in the future for hunters. All the more reason why we need strong but reasonable representation through NZDA, the Game Council etc. I say "reasonable" because there will be a natural reaction from the land owners if we are not.

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## XR500

> Are the roads not public roads?


Look it up on WAMS. Its not purple so its not.

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## Shearer

Hunters are only one user group of this area. NZAC, MSC and others will all be lobbying for continued access to this part of the Kaimanawas. Unfortunately, where Maori land is involved it is never a simple or fast process. I have seen situations in this area where land owners deny access just because they can, to prove a point. If this happens here the only ones going in there will be Iwi and poachers. Not ideal.

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## 7mmwsm

> 30 0r so years ago Kaimanawa Road (access to Umukarikari and Urchin) was gated and the owners introduced a permit system. Neither lasted very long. The gate for obvious reasons and I think the permit system was too administratively cumbersome for the owners to maintain.
> 
> I thought at the time though that it was an indication of what might be in the future for hunters. All the more reason why we need strong but reasonable representation through NZDA, the Game Council etc. I say "reasonable" because there will be a natural reaction from the land owners if we are not.


The main issue is a percentage of the population are entitled dickheads and treat other peoples property as a dump. Hunters included.
A recent example being hunters flown out of a restricted area and the campsites left like a tip. Including someone taking a crapp in the creek bed in close proximity to the camp. When questioned by the organisers the reply was it was the party before them.
Dumbarses forgot it was a new campsite and it was them.
So imagine the shit that gets dumped in the scrub close to the desert road.

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## Tahr

> The main issue is a percentage of the population are entitled dickheads and treat other peoples property as a dump. Hunters included.
> A recent example being hunters flown out of a restricted area and the campsites left like a tip. Including someone taking a crapp in the creek bed in close proximity to the camp. When questioned by the organisers the reply was it was the party before them.
> Dumbarses forgot it was a new campsite and it was them.
> So imagine the shit that gets dumped in the scrub close to the desert road.


yes

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## XR500

Soooo. Wheels within wheels.

Just had a very polite and informative conversation with a gentleman from DoC Taupo who rang me back. Said I was the first of what he was expecting to be a looong line of complainants.

Yes, the local Maori Trust has decided to close public access.

BUT, its a commercial decision, not soley  an environmental rubbish/illegal hunting one. HELISIKA have required the closure of the road so that they will pay the Trust considerable sums to lease long term the area and be able to use the end of the road there as a helicopter base during summer, to run downhill MTBing tours, and other scenic touristy stuff.

The hut on the tops and the heli base just off the tar seal road about 4km in are visible on G Earth.

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## Ned

Wonder if they can make this more viable than RAL's attempt to bus Taupo based tourists to the gondola for lunch.
I would have thought there is plenty of choice for mtbers that this would have to offer something pretty special.
Thanks for posting the info.
Good luck to them.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

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## Shearer

> Soooo. Wheels within wheels.
> 
> Just had a very polite and informative conversation with a gentleman from DoC Taupo who rang me back. Said I was the first of what he was expecting to be a looong line of complainants.
> 
> Yes, the local Maori Trust has decided to close public access.
> 
> BUT, its a commercial decision, not soley  an environmental rubbish/illegal hunting one. HELISIKA have required the closure of the road so that they will pay the Trust considerable sums to lease long term the area and be able to use the end of the road there as a helicopter base during summer, to run downhill MTBing tours, and other scenic touristy stuff.
> 
> The hut on the tops and the heli base just off the tar seal road about 4km in are visible on G Earth.


Okay. So they are putting the MTB tracks in on the private land?
As much as I would hate to see that areas access blocked off it is a pretty cunning commercial decision.

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## PillowDribbler

Money came from Provincial Growth slush fund for that development.

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## XR500

> Okay. So they are putting the MTB tracks in on the private land?
> As much as I would hate to see that areas access blocked off it is a pretty cunning commercial decision.


Yep, go to the WAMS website, you will see its all on private (Maori Trust) land.

But does cut off access to public land (Kaimanawa Forest Park) that's been used for the past 65 years. Pity the powers that be had not been pro active and secured access rights when the road was constructed. 

But that was in another era.

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## Rem260

> Look it up on WAMS. Its not purple so its not.


Main road isn't purple either?

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## XR500

Yep.

But the bit that will grind people's gears is that in essence, Public funds (the PGF) have been given to a private trust and a successful business that has resulted in the loss of public access to public land.

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## Maxx

> I may be passing that way tomorrow, and was intending to do just that. 
> 
> I'm well aware that there is a large swathe of Maori land (Rangipo Waiu) that separates the Desert road from the Kaimanawa State Forest park. The Waipakahi road was formed during the Tongariro power project development, in the late 1950's/early 1960's. It was a busy place in the 1960's A big concrete batching plant was based down there. I remember a bailey bridge permitting access to the northern bank  of the Waipakahi river.
> 
> I would have expected there was some sort of agreement in place with the NZ Forest Service and LINZ (equivalent) to permit the continued access to the park through the Maori land. I would have expected that its successor, DoC continued or improved that agreement...but maybe not.
> 
> If what people have said is indeed happening, its a concerning escalation of the reduction in access to public lands. DoC have made it exceedingly hard to park your car out of sight of the Desert road at the Southern access corridor by installing all sorts of elephant traps and chains etc (complete with hidden hidden cameras). Now Waipakahi and Rangipo roads may well be being closed off. Pretty much no easy access to the entire western side of the Kaimanawas. Gonna be some pretty pissed trampers and hunters, given the lack of any discussion or communications from DoC to the Public about this.


After enquiry, was because of motorised vehicle use of the access corridor, and surrounding lands, I'm advised.  :Thumbsup:

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## Mohawk .308

Time for  E bike

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## Puddleduk

> Soooo. Wheels within wheels.
> 
> Just had a very polite and informative conversation with a gentleman from DoC Taupo who rang me back. Said I was the first of what he was expecting to be a looong line of complainants.
> 
> Yes, the local Maori Trust has decided to close public access.
> 
> BUT, its a commercial decision, not soley  an environmental rubbish/illegal hunting one. HELISIKA have required the closure of the road so that they will pay the Trust considerable sums to lease long term the area and be able to use the end of the road there as a helicopter base during summer, to run downhill MTBing tours, and other scenic touristy stuff.
> 
> The hut on the tops and the heli base just off the tar seal road about 4km in are visible on G Earth.


Helisika? If so that might cause a controversy...

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## Bradp

So which roads are actually being closed?
Rangipo intake road?

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## XR500

No, only Waipakahi at this stage. The DoC guy said there was some maintenance going on along the Rangipo intake rd....we will see.

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## PillowDribbler

Convoys of 4x4s are poking further into some of that country and that land is very slow to recover. There was monitoring going on a couple of months ago so might be getting some medicine.

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## Ross Nolan

I wonder if this will impact on Helisikas hunter business. 
I'm disinclined to use them as a result.

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## Mohawk .308

> I wonder if this will impact on Helisikas hunter business. 
> I'm disinclined to use them as a result.


Heli sika used to be ok back in the early days but now they’re a rip off in my opinion. This is just another reason not to use them.

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## Shearer

Unfortunately they have a strangle hold on the private land around that area and right across to the Ahimanawas.

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## Huk

> Unfortunately they have a strangle hold on the private land around that area and right across to the Ahimanawas.


Spot on there, use them or dont go unfortunatley,they have no shortage of clients

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## Mohawk .308

Does anyone know exactly where this gate on Waipakahi Rd is be installed?

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## Blackfern

Well.. that sucks.

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## XR500

> Does anyone know exactly where this gate on Waipakahi Rd is be installed?


I was on the road today, and intended to come back via the Desert rd and take a photo. Unfortunately Mr Google said it'd be an additional 150km on my trip to New Plymouth, so at today's diesel prices that would have been a $70 photo, and I had to get back to feed the girls and only just got back on dark.

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## Hunteast

This situation also reminds me of Boyd's airstrip where Air Charter Taupo lost the lease to fly people in. Left to the local heli operator to expand their service and give less choice/competition.

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## Chelsea

The old guy who lives down rangipo road told us this would happen about a year ago. I think I had posted it somewhere on here. He pretty much said the Maori land owners have had enough of people leaving the land a mess, spotlighting and issues with peoples deer selection when hunting. He said Doc weren’t doing enough to take care of the land so they want it back under their control. I better clarify this is what he had told me so this is second hand information. 
I have spent a lot of time up rangipo intake road, about 6 weeks a year for the last 6 years and haven’t really had any issues. Sure some young spotlighters on a couple of occasions but they soon leave when you put lights back at them. Going to be really gutted if access is cut.

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## 7mmwsm

> This situation also reminds me of Boyd's airstrip where Air Charter Taupo lost the lease to fly people in. Left to the local heli operator to expand their service and give less choice/competition.


It wasn't the Boyd Chris and Arthur lost the lease on. That's DOC land. It was East Taupo Lands blocks. Oamaru, Otupua, Footy Field, Mangaroa, East Creek and North Arm. Plus the helicopter blocks Lake Land worked.

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## 300CALMAN

So these are not public roads then? The gates will need security guards or the cost of maintaining them will be substantial.

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## 300CALMAN

OK so it looks like Tree trunk could be in trouble but Ragapoi and Waipakahi are public as far as I can see. Can I block the road in front of my house because people dump rubbish?

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## Hunteast

Yep your right 7mmwsm about the East Taupo Lands saga. I think ACT figured it wasn't worthwhile with just Boyds as a desination? Air Charter Taupo were great operators.

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## 7mmwsm

The key was you had options.
Now, with only one operator guess which way the price has gone?
And if what some are saying about a base on Waipakahi Road is correct, things will only get worse.

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## Double tap

Was down waipakahi road a few weeks ago noticed a new building in there and was wondering what it’s for. 
There is agate on the drive way entrance to the new building.

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## striker

There was a heap of work going on down waipakahi road a while back, heaps of 70 series troopy land cruisers and hiluxs, SGS Gobal I think laying pipes or etc

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## Hayden

SRG global…. They are blasting and painting the pylons

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## striker

> SRG global…. They are blasting and painting the pylons


Cheers thought some one would know what they were up to

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## Cigar

> OK so it looks like Tree trunk could be in trouble but Ragapoi and Waipakahi are public as far as I can see. Can I block the road in front of my house because people dump rubbish?


According to a couple of websites I checked, none of those are public roads.

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## erniec

But they have been available to the public for a long time.
Legally I am pretty sure any road that is open to the public is public.
For example the access road to the power stations I work on are owned and maintained by the company, but are treated as public.
I am sure others on here will know what is correct.
But it is a time that all current users get together as a lot of users besides hunters use these roads.
Going by reports by trampers they probably use them as much if not more than hunters.
I can remember going on school camps at Waipakihi back in the 70s.

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## gimp

Not public roads.

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## 25/08IMP

> Attachment 201713
> 
> Attachment 201714
> 
> Not public roads.


How does one tell if they are or not?

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

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## gimp

Purple layer on WAMS GIS is road reserve.


Other coloured layers if they included the area of the roads could be public land access (e.g. if they were shaded green - conservation land).

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## 25/08IMP

Just found this which says it all.
Not looking good as deer numbers in that lower part of the river will really take off.

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

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## 25/08IMP

It sounds like Rangipo intake Rd is owned by Genesis energy.

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

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## erniec

One would think so as their access is essential.

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## In2thewild

Such a shame, great place to take groups of kids to get them into the NZ back country. 

Can only assume that it will be heavily monitored with cameras and alike to act as a deterrent to stop people biking in there.

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## Carbine

so thank you to helisika for shitting on ground hunters

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## Bagheera

I wonder if helisika or their associates have a concession to run mountainbiking business in the kaimanawa forest park ?

Current established cash flows from aerial access there are:
Recreational hunters
Predator control
Sika foundation herd management

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## Mohawk .308

I think the mountain biking is on private land. Needles block.

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## XR500

Its only going to affect the law abiding (sound familiar!!!)
The locals all know a dozen ways to get in there that's not along the sealed road.

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## ONYVA

Drove past the intake rd and large steel posts 40m from state h/way, nothing visible on kaimanawa rd

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## omark

> I think the mountain biking is on private land. Needles block.


They will still need a resource consent for a place of assembly I guess unless Māori land is exempt from the RMA

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## Bagheera

Access to the Urchin and Umukarikari tracks is also not on public roads.

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## Hindquarters

I'm lead to believe that the Kaimanawa road has an untouchable public right of way attached to it...

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## Russian 22.

> I'm lead to believe that the Kaimanawa road has an untouchable public right of way attached to it...


you might be associating decades of public use with public road. Let's wait for WAMS to ge tinvolved and see what they say.

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## 300CALMAN

> Attachment 201750
> 
> Attachment 201751
> 
> Access to the Urchin and Umukarikari tracks is also not on public roads.


The Council GIS shows Road Reserve on all except tree trunk.

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## 300CALMAN

> Attachment 201750
> 
> Attachment 201751
> 
> Access to the Urchin and Umukarikari tracks is also not on public roads.


What GIS is that?

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## stug

There is/use to be another road/track between Kaimanawa Rd and Tree trunk gorge. We used it once when Kaiwanawa Rd first went to the permit system. There was a footbridge over the river and came out on the Pillars of Hercules track. No place to leave the car though.

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## Reindeer

> What GIS is that?


If you are referring to the maps Bagheera put up, I dont think they are GIS maps but Topo with DoC overlay on. Could be wrong

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## erniec

Have a bit of a play on Taupo District Council mapping system.
Not sure how to use properly but somebody on here will know.
https://taupo.maps.arcgis.com/apps/w...0c3144560264f6

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## Bagheera

Thanks @erniec .
The Taupo Council map seems like the same tool as on the Walking Access Govt  site but with different data.
I can see a yellow line along some of those roads but it's just described as "road" and its' legal / public access status isn't shown.  This is what I could find for Waipakihi Rd:


I think on this forum we're limited in what we can reliably find out about the legal status, whether it's public road, easement, covenant  or customary use.  However, this is a great platform for spreading true, surmised or rumoured news.  It would be reliable if someone were to post photos or recount any experience of restricted access, preferably with a police file number if a complaint were to be made.  Representatives of Helisika and the land owners should also be respectfully invited to tell us what's up for them.  Often, there is a period before changes are finalised, when things can be negotiated, which is more efficient for all involved.

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## XR500

Unfortunately I think the time for that has passed. The initial leverage for maintaining permanent access would have been during the Tongariro power project construction phase, when public assets were constructed/placed at the end of those roads (water intakes/diversions, hydro power stations). There may well be ROW over the roads to enable the Ministry of Electricity and its successors to freely access/work/maintain that infrastructure. But possibly not over the Waipakahi road, as there's only a river level gauge down at the end of the road .

The only other possible period to have negotiated a right of way over the Waipakahi road would have been during the negotiations for the Provincial Growth Fund that paid for a lot of the works carried out. Trouble being I doubt that the public servants dishing out the PGF lollies would have had the foresight or acumen to have made Public Access a condition when doling out public funds in the form of the grant (i.e. for free) for a private Trust and a successful business to make money from.

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## PillowDribbler

https://www.lrft.co.nz/land.html    Third Schedule blocks,clickable link.

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## Nakivet

> https://www.lrft.co.nz/land.html    Third Schedule blocks,clickable link.


Interesting PillowDribbler
Looking at Rangipo North7C (the Waipakihi block) it clearly shows it in two land parcels, one on either side of the road with the Waipakihi road running up the middle of no mans land about 40m wide. 
Compared to the Rangipo North 4C block as comparison where Tree Trunk Gorge road runs through the middle of the block

I'm no expert reading this sort of information but my take is the land owners don't own the road

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## erniec

> Thanks @erniec .
> The Taupo Council map seems like the same tool as on the Walking Access Govt  site but with different data.
> I can see a yellow line along some of those roads but it's just described as "road" and its' legal / public access status isn't shown.  This is what I could find for Waipakihi Rd:
> Attachment 201761
> 
> I think on this forum we're limited in what we can reliably find out about the legal status, whether it's public road, easement, covenant  or customary use.  However, this is a great platform for spreading true, surmised or rumoured news.  It would be reliable if someone were to post photos or recount any experience of restricted access, preferably with a police file number if a complaint were to be made.  Representatives of Helisika and the land owners should also be respectfully invited to tell us what's up for them.  Often, there is a period before changes are finalised, when things can be negotiated, which is more efficient for all involved.


That's about what I found too.

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## Ross Nolan

I've emailed the registrar of the Maori Land Court asking for clarification. 

Tree trunk road appears to be fully owned, but Kaimanawa road has the same separation of the block to allow the road shown on the Land court website map..

I'll put the answer I receive up when it arrives.

On the map the block is shown in grey - Tree trunk road is shown in grey, not so for Waipakahi road or Kaimanawa road.

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## 25/08IMP

I phoned the taupo council and was told waipakihi rd does exist on their list of legal roads and Rangipo is owned by Genesis.

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## erniec

> I phoned the taupo council and was told waipakihi rd does exist on their list of legal roads and Rangipo is owned by Genesis.
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


When these power schemes were developed part of the deal was to create facilities such as boat ramps, toilet blocks and they also had to allow access for recreational activities.
One guys got in the shit for the rowing setup on Lake Ruataniwha and then got recognized for it.
I would be surprised if the right to to have power stations, headworks etc on public land the public use of access roads isn't a given as well. 
I know one or two people who work for Genesis so will make some enquiries but guys from Turangi should know some as well.

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## XR500

Interesting whats coming to the surface with all these junior sleuths doing their stuff!!!

I guess we need a photo of the actual intended barrier to see exactly where it is being placed. I do remember from about 3 months ago when I went down to the river there was a barrier arm blocking off access along a newly gravelled track to the south of Waipakahi road, close to the end of the long straight that leads to what we now know is going to be a summer heli hanger base. 

I'm sure there will be Trustees from Rangipo North 7c and Helisika employees that visit this forum, and it would be lovely to hear from them.

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## Bagheera

> Interesting whats coming to the surface with all these junior sleuths doing their stuff!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure there will be Trustees from Rangipo North 7c and Helisika employees that visit this forum, and it would be lovely to hear from them.



Bush Lawyer and Online Analyst would be the usual terms of endearment .:pacman 
Still, i expect there are some incognito here who do have professional standing in these matters and they will be sizing up whether anything needs to be done.

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## Bagheera

> Interesting whats coming to the surface with all these junior sleuths doing their stuff!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure there will be Trustees from Rangipo North 7c and Helisika employees that visit this forum, and it would be lovely to hear from them.



Bush Lawyer and Online Analyst would be the usual terms of endearment.  :Pacman: 
Still, i expect there are some incognito here who do have professional standing in these matters and they will be sizing up whether anything needs to be done.

----------


## Ruger7mm

Hi all
Just checked on the WAMS mapping page and the road is definitely in public ownership. This link will take you to the appropriate map, and if you zoom in on Waipakahi Road it clearly not part of the adjoining land parcels.
https://maps.walkingaccess.govt.nz/V...b90439761cccee

Cheers
Ruger7mm

----------


## Cigar

> Hi all
> Just checked on the WAMS mapping page and the road is definitely in public ownership. This link will take you to the appropriate map, and if you zoom in on Waipakahi Road it clearly not part of the adjoining land parcels.
> https://maps.walkingaccess.govt.nz/V...b90439761cccee
> 
> Cheers
> Ruger7mm


If I click on the road it gives exactly the same id and information as the surrounding land.

----------


## Ruger7mm

Hi Cigar
If you zoom in you will see the boundaries drawn that allow for the strip of land that is connected and contiguous with the DOC land to the west. These block boundaries define the edge of the two parts of the total area. The two parts are not contiguous or connected other than in title. I'll get it confirmed with WACNZ tomorrow.
Cheers
Ruger7mm

----------


## Cigar

Oh, yep zoomed right in and see what you mean now.

A gate seems a strange idea, as the MTB customers will still need to get in all through the day.

----------


## Shearer

> Oh, yep zoomed right in and see what you mean now.
> 
> A gate seems a strange idea, as the MTB customers will still need to get in all through the day.


If it is Heli Biking they will probably have "operating hours".

----------


## Bagheera

@Ruger7mm thanks
The land parcel info wasn't there when I last looked.
If you go to the outdoor access map it shows DoC conservation land (green) and roads like SH1 (purple) but that land parcel is not marked as either.  It shows up a bit like some stream & river beds.  We might be getting to the limits of what's displayed on these online maps.  They aren't the original legal documents, are they ?

----------


## Barefoot

> @Ruger7mm thanks
> The land parcel info wasn't there when I last looked.
> If you go to the outdoor access map it shows DoC conservation land (green) and roads like SH1 (purple) but that land parcel is not marked as either.  It shows up a bit like some stream & river beds.  We might be getting to the limits of what's displayed on these online maps.  They aren't the original legal documents, are they ?
> 
> Attachment 201799


You need to switch maps to the property information map, that will then show what Ruger7mm is talking about

----------


## Ruger7mm

Hi all
Further to this discussion both Waipakihi and Kaimanawa Roads were taken under the Public Works Act for the purpose of electricity generation development, and are still vested in the crown for that purpose.  When I get a reply from Walking Access NZ I'll post it here.
Cheers
Ruger7mm

----------


## Ross Nolan

I received an email from Heli sika this morning for their winter special and replied asking what was going on - their reply below.

Hi Ross

Helisika is currently in the process of opening a new base on waipakihi road in conjunction with the land owners who own that land. 

Our new base aims to be operating by this coming summer and for security reasons the trust has decided to put gates on the road to stop illegal poaching and 4WD access, also for security around the new base and infrastructure. 
We are yet to determine whether we will be able to grant walking access to the DOC land on the lower Waipakihi.

----------


## Ruger7mm

It would seem that to erect a gate on the road, would in fact be erecting a gate on land owned by the Crown, so essentially would need to approval of the Crown agency that holds responsibility over the land taken through the Public Works Act (PWC) in 1968. Interestingly section 48 of the PWC allows for the Crown to grant an easement over the land for access at their discretion, this could be an avenue to to pursue if needed.
I would have thought a gate on the Waipakahi Road would not be the best security for a helicopter base, a fence around the said facility would be more appropriate I would have thought?

----------


## Ross Nolan

I've pointed out to them (Helisika) that it does look like the trust doesn't own the road, so it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

The MLC haven't answered yet, but I'm not expecting a fast reply so will just stand by.

----------


## Mohawk .308

That’s interesting, obviously the land owners think they own the road.

----------


## Shearer

If this is all happening (bases being built, gates being erected) I think you can be pretty sure those involved have done their homework and gone through the right procedures. Ngati Tuwharetoa and Heli Sika are (if nothing else) very astute business people and would be unlikely go ahead with a project like this if they had not ticked all the correct boxes first.

----------


## imaca

> If this is all happening (bases being built, gates being erected) I think you can be pretty sure those involved have done their homework and gone through the right procedures. Ngati Tuwharetoa and Heli Sika are (if nothing else) very astute business people and would be unlikely go ahead with a project like this if they had not ticked all the correct boxes first.


Or, they operate on the principle of better to ask for forgiveness than permission

----------


## Woody

Money money money. And DoC can 't or won't match it.

----------


## XR500

> Hi all
> Further to this discussion both Waipakihi and Kaimanawa Roads were taken under the Public Works Act for the purpose of electricity generation development, and are still vested in the crown for that purpose.  When I get a reply from Walking Access NZ I'll post it here.
> Cheers
> Ruger7mm


So if that's indeed still the case I can see no ability for the Trust that owns the land _on both sides of the Waipakahi road_ to legally erect a barrier gate unless the Crown kowtows to the Trust  and leaves their employers, AKA The Public! high and dry.

----------


## Ruger7mm

Correct! There is a solution, but Cindy and co will not go against the adjoining landowners wishes even at the expense of letting thousands of visitors annually to that area down. I might ask LINZ if any permissions have been granted over the land they are responsible for and see what I get back.

----------


## Woody

The catchment Sth of Waipakihi is the waipahihi which is also moari. I seem to recall it was crown land and exchanged for some maori land bordering tongariro nat park. A helisika base on waipakihi rd would give cheapish heli access into waipahihi valley as well as waipakihi and sthrn kaimanawa and upper ngaruroro and rangatikie catchment ecology ck etcso I feel there is a business plan there and I also think DoC would be aware of this along with tuwharetoa. However the present vehicle access should not be denied to hunters and trampers as a result so some lobbying of parliamentarians is called for asap IMO. This jackup has obviously been in the covert pipeline for quite a while.

----------


## Woody

I can't see helisika putting in a mere pad and flying to it every day. More likely to be a base like at poronui plus a hut up the waipahihi. Just a surmise IMO but such a service would need some scale and security. Royalties to be paid as well etc. DoC ops would be serviced as well. 
Just my guesses.

----------


## kukuwai

> Or, they operate on the principle of better to ask for forgiveness than permission


Yea I'd say that's unlikely !!

Inclined to agree with Shearer, if they are investing that kind of capital in today's environment then I'm sure they have done their due diligence  

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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## XR500

That's the catch... They didn't have to invest... We did it for them, in the form of the Provincial growth fund. Was covered a couple of pages back.  And from some murmurings I hear they may not have done quite all they may want to have. Time will tell.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> That's the catch... They didn't have to invest... We did it for them, in the form of the Provincial growth fund. Was covered a couple of pages back.  And from some murmurings I hear they may not have done quite all they may want to have. Time will tell.


Wouldn’t that be great if it’s true, fuckn assholes IMO being involved in this. They’ve got a few dollars from me over the years but there’s no way they’re getting anymore.

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## PillowDribbler

https://www.lrft.co.nz/files/2021_LR...rt_-_FINAL.pdf      Page 23

----------


## Shearer

> https://www.lrft.co.nz/files/2021_LR...rt_-_FINAL.pdf      Page 23


Very interesting. Development plans all there in black and white.

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## Mohawk .308

> https://www.lrft.co.nz/files/2021_LR...rt_-_FINAL.pdf      Page 23


Been in the pipeline for awhile

(Joint Venture with Kaimanawa 3B2A/3B2B Trusts and a license agreement with Helisika Limited)
In 2019, this tourism venture operation for a Heli-biking experience was developed in a tripartite agreement with the Kaimanawa Trusts and Helisika. Other activities such as Heli- scenic flights, Heli-hiking, and Heli-hunting would also be delivered in this venture.
A Kiosk, Helicopter Hangar, and toilet are proposed to be built at the current car park area on Waipakihi Road (Rangipo North 7C Block), and these buildings are to be the base of operations. Construction would commence in early December 2021, with the tourism venture being in full operation in the 2022 summer season.
The Provincial Growth Fund funded the construction of all building and track infrastructure, the buildings maintained by Helisika for the duration of the Joint Venture (minimum of 15 years), and ownership of the buildings transferred to LRFT at the end of construction. In terms of the Joint Venture agreement, Helisika is to pay for any costs in excess of the Kaimanawa PGF funding amount, and Helisika will pay LRFT and the Kaimanawa Trusts for track/building use on a (royalty) per person basis.

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## XR500

Thanks  @PillowDribbler. Page 22 for those that don't want to wade their way through the whole report.

edit: Oooops, Mohawk .308 beat me to it!

----------


## Woody

Page 22. There ya go.

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## Tahr

> https://www.lrft.co.nz/files/2021_LR...rt_-_FINAL.pdf      Page 23


Extract:

Kaimanawa Alpine Adventures
(Joint Venture with Kaimanawa 3B2A/3B2B Trusts and a license agreement with Helisika Limited)
In 2019, this tourism venture operation for a Heli-biking experience was developed in a tripartite agreement with the Kaimanawa Trusts and Helisika. Other activities such as Heli- scenic flights, Heli-hiking, and Heli-hunting would also be delivered in this venture.
A Kiosk, Helicopter Hangar, and toilet are proposed to be built at the current car park area on Waipakihi Road (Rangipo North 7C Block), and these buildings are to be the base of operations. Construction would commence in early December 2021, with the tourism venture being in full operation in the 2022 summer season.
The Provincial Growth Fund funded the construction of all building and track infrastructure, the buildings maintained by Helisika for the duration of the Joint Venture (minimum of 15 years), and ownership of the buildings transferred to LRFT at the end of construction. In terms of the Joint Venture agreement, Helisika is to pay for any costs in excess of the Kaimanawa PGF funding amount, and Helisika will pay LRFT and the Kaimanawa Trusts for track/building use on a (royalty) per person basis.

----------


## Reindeer

So Helisika has entered into 3way for 15 years out of a base at waipakahi rd. Heli bike,hunt and scenic flights. Royalties on a per person basis paid to hapu. I'd say on same lines as DoC concession. 
It also reads everyone but that the hapu is stumping up cash.
Money for jam.


3 ways, always one person that feels left out. Wonder how long it will actually last.

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## Lauries Hut

It could or should also mean cheaper flights up into Thunderbolt and surrounds. Which by default will mean more hunters.

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## Mohawk .308

> It could or should also mean cheaper flights up into Thunderbolt and surrounds. Which by default will mean more hunters.


That’s all good but they’re looking at blocking public access to the Waipakahi, would you be happy with that?

----------


## Nathan F

> It could or should also mean cheaper flights up into Thunderbolt and surrounds. Which by default will mean more hunters.


Don’t count on anything being cheap with those money grubbers involved

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## Woody

Ok. So to attempt to secure ongoing public vehicle access to the kaimanawa park boundary will require lobby to MP's.

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## Tahr

> Ok. So to attempt to secure ongoing public vehicle access to the kaimanawa park boundary will require lobby to MP's.


My email to an official:

Hello xx,

Please can you confirm or not that the Waipakahi Rd access is going to be gated and closed in the (near) future?

If so, will DOC negotiate and ensure that alternative access to the lower Waipakahi Valley is available for the public?

Thanks

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## Lauries Hut

> That’s all good but they’re looking at blocking public access to the Waipakahi, would you be happy with that?


Definitely not. 
As Nathan says don’t count on cheaper flights. Heli Sika are a commercial enterprise, there to make money, not provide cheaper access into the back country. 
The cynic in me sees them making access difficult to the foot hunter so you have to pay them to burn kero to get you up there..

----------


## Hindquarters

> Definitely not. 
> As Nathan says don’t count on cheaper flights. Heli Sika are a commercial enterprise, there to make money, not provide cheaper access into the back country. 
> The cynic in me sees them making access difficult to the foot hunter so you have to pay them to burn kero to get you up there..


And probably a couple of new huts on the true left of the river..

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## Dazzh

This regarding paper roads.

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## XR500

Useful info there  @Dazzh , but we are not talking a paper road in this instance. Paper roads were a late 18th/early 19th century occurrence, back when New Zealand's economy was principally agriculture and (native)forestry.  Most paper roads soon became developed roads (dirt tracks, metalled roads etc). The roads most improved were those that led to a from the most productive lands. Paper roads that led to less productive land were not developed, or were man made tracks that when the area experienced the great depression became unmaintained.

The roads that lead off to the East of the Desert road were constructed as a result of the enormous Tongariro power project on the 1950's/1960's.  They were required to access rivers and tunnels to construct water diversion infrastructure and power station locations.

To permit this work to occur on Maori owned land (or NZFS/LINZ land), areas of land and road alignments were required to be set aside using section 40?? of the Public Works act, to ensure the Crown maintained permanent access and ownership of said infrastructure and roads.

As forum members have discovered (principally on WAMS) the Waipakahi road alignment itself appears to not be inside the private land boundaries that constitute the Maori land either side of the road. This would _INDICATE_ that the road itself is not privately owned... 

One of us is gonna have to go for a drive and see what, if anything, is actually happening on the Waipakahi road. Anything to either side of the road is no concern of ours, as its private land.

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## Ross Nolan

I'll be there on Sunday.

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## PillowDribbler

Somebody is paying $370,000 rates for Rangipo Intake Rd and environs,fits in with 25/08IMP info owned by Genisis.There is easement rights over the bits of Maori land that protrude into this block.If gates go up they might run some sort of token or pad pass system to get into the Kaimanawas to control some of the moron activity.

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## XR500

Can we please run a token/pad pass system on my rural road to control some of the moron activity :Omg:  :Thumbsup:

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## Woody

I have made a start to discuss with Taupo electorate MP but she is currently at a conference in Nelson. Secretary has a message from me to pass on. May hear more next week.

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## Tahr

Reply from DOC Turangi today:

_Kia ora xxx, 

Thanks for contacting us. Yes both Waipakihi Road and Rangipo Intake roads will closing. The land is privately owned and the owners are closing the roads. 

If you have enquiries please contact Lake Rotoira Forest Trust PH07-386 8834 https://www.lrft.co.nz/

The Kaimanawa Forest Park can still be accessed via other access roads such as Tree Trunk Gorge Road, Kaimanawa Road. 
_

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## Woody

How inconsiderate of DoC public servants to not advise public back at least two years ago. Lots of us need to get to MP's asap. The public has used these access roads for at least 56 years going by my experiences.

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## Ross Nolan

I'll wait until I see the title.

On  the one hand we have the Maori Land Court map showing one thing, and on the other we have someone who will benefit commercially saying another. They may well be correct, but the facts here matter more than anybody's opinion.

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## Tahr

> I'll wait until I see the title.
> 
> On  the one hand we have the Maori Land Court map showing one thing, and on the other we have someone who will benefit commercially saying another. They may well be correct, but the facts here matter more than anybody's opinion.


I would be gob-smacked if the Lake Rotoira Forest Trust and Heli Sika (and DOC on the side line) lawyers have got this wrong. 

Lobbying and public opinion may result in changes but I doubt very much if there is a legal remedy.

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## 25/08IMP

How about one of you guys with all the legal knowledge about the maps etc write us a letter that we can then send to our MP.

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## Tahr

Maori Freehold land map.

https://www.maorilandonline.govt.nz/gis/title/19948.htm

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## omark

> How about one of you guys with all the legal knowledge about the maps etc write us a letter that we can then send to our MP.
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


Rather than everyone putting their 2 cents forward, Shouldnt this be taken up by the local nzda branch? NZDAs national office lawyers can then write to the crown/minister with an accompanying media release as part of their hunter advocacy function.

Astounding that PGF money is being used to block public access.

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## stug

Weird. Looks like Waipakihi Rd is not Maori free hold but free trunk gorge is.

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## PillowDribbler

Would make a tresspass notice from police interesting. It would read do not know land owner pick from the following list.

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## Woody

Left a message on NZDA HQ answerphone this afternoon. Also Sika foundation and taupo nzda. 
No one available anywhere at present it seems.

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## 25/08IMP

> Rather than everyone putting their 2 cents forward, Shouldnt this be taken up by the local nzda branch? NZDAs national office lawyers can then write to the crown/minister with an accompanying media release as part of their hunter advocacy function.
> 
> Astounding that PGF money is being used to block public access.


One of our members has already been in touch with the president of NZDA who is a lawyer him self so im sure something will be done about it 

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## Tahr

> One of our members has already been in touch with the president of NZDA who is a lawyer him self so im sure something will be done about it 
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


CEO is a lawyer.

CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER AND GENERAL COUNSEL

Gwyn Thurlow is from Wellington and joined NZDA as CEO and General Counsel (in-house lawyer) in June 2020.

Gwyn has taken on the role to transform NZDA into a modern and professional organisation. He has been a long time member of NZDA where he is the treasurer of Wellington Branch and volunteers on the NZDA National Heritage Trust as secretary.

Gwyn is a keen alpine hunter and particularly enjoys hunting tahr and chamois.

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## 25/08IMP

> CEO is a lawyer.
> 
> CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER AND GENERAL COUNSEL
> 
> Gwyn Thurlow is from Wellington and joined NZDA as CEO and General Counsel (in-house lawyer) in June 2020.
> 
> Gwyn has taken on the role to transform NZDA into a modern and professional organisation. He has been a long time member of NZDA where he is the treasurer of Wellington Branch and volunteers on the NZDA National Heritage Trust as secretary.
> 
> Gwyn is a keen alpine hunter and particularly enjoys hunting tahr and chamois.


Yip that's what I meant.

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## Friwi

I ll see him on Thursday night and over the next weekend for our annual conference.

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## Ross Nolan

I put that map up earlier this week, and it shows the road as not being part of the block.
I've asked the Maori Land Court for clarification.

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## Maxx

> I would be gob-smacked if the Lake Rotoira Forest Trust and Heli Sika (and DOC on the side line) lawyers have got this wrong. 
> 
> Lobbying and public opinion may result in changes but I doubt very much if there is a legal remedy.


I'm inclined to agree.

And on the advocacy front, I kinda suspect it would be useful to collaborate with other representative groups, like FMC , maybe? If nothing else, that may help assuage the general low regard the authorities et al appear to have for hunters, and their passtimes?

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## Ruger7mm

Waipakihi Road is owned by the Crown full stop. Any closure needs to be approved by the Crown agency, which in this case to be confirmed but should be LINZ. When Shane Jones was travelling around with his PGF roadshow many applications were approved without due diligence. The minister of LINZ is Damien OConnor so send questions to him asking if his department have approved the establishing of a gate to stop public access along Crown owned land.

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## PillowDribbler

Go here https://www.taupodc.govt.nz/    Click maps/mapi/scroll down/go to mapi/scroll and adjust for area/zoom in.I used junction of SH1 and Rangipo Intake Rd. Left click on road for info then click arrow and three lots of info show up,click on info.

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## XR500

> Go here https://www.taupodc.govt.nz/    Click maps/mapi/scroll down/go to mapi/scroll and adjust for area/zoom in.I used junction of SH1 and Rangipo Intake Rd. Left click on road for info then click arrow and three lots of info show up,click on info.


Thanks for that. Shows it clear as day.

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## Hunteast

Down in the central south island when we had access issues denied, reduced through tenure reviews on farms/Stations sold to overseas interests or we were locked out by new owners we lobbied/wrote submissions to Central Govt and formed a South Island Access Committee with NZDA as main stakeholders. When labour got into Govt 5 years ago they stopped further tenure reviews and made LINZ take into account future access guaratees which was great but a bit late for many properties that closed access to the public land out the back. FMC stepped up too over these issues - worked together with NZDA.  In the meantime we have gained access to some public land that was difficult prior.
Get together - provide maps of the issue, accumulate your email replies from local DOC amd provide photo's of the road/gates being built. Then forward to your local NZDA branch in Taupo which may end up dealing directly with the Iwi land owners? I remain surprised Taupo branch haven't jumped on the bandwagon since this thread started? Problem is that many users of the Waipakihi Rd access and other access rds likely not in the NZDA? But want action. Its a numbers game - the bigger the group/NZDA etc the more resources you have to fight back. Work together on these matters. 
I personally would have thought this gate issue would have leaked out a while back to give stakeholders a chance to formulate a reply? 
DOC have a huge estate to look after with little funding change over the years - they are near the bottom of Govt portfolios as they don't make much money for Govt. Bet if Cam Speedy was the big boss for the area, we would have heard about this road change way back? Just an opinion mine you.

----------


## RUMPY

I have just sent a message to a local lady who is/was the president of FMC earlier this afternoon to raise her awareness of this access restriction. 
Haven't had a reply yet but hopefully she reads it.

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## Hindquarters

FMC have been notified.

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## 7mmwsm

> Down in the central south island when we had access issues denied, reduced through tenure reviews on farms/Stations sold to overseas interests or we were locked out by new owners we lobbied/wrote submissions to Central Govt and formed a South Island Access Committee with NZDA as main stakeholders. When labour got into Govt 5 years ago they stopped further tenure reviews and made LINZ take into account future access guaratees which was great but a bit late for many properties that closed access to the public land out the back. FMC stepped up too over these issues - worked together with NZDA.  In the meantime we have gained access to some public land that was difficult prior.
> Get together - provide maps of the issue, accumulate your email replies from local DOC amd provide photo's of the road/gates being built. Then forward to your local NZDA branch in Taupo which may end up dealing directly with the Iwi land owners? I remain surprised Taupo branch haven't jumped on the bandwagon since this thread started? Problem is that many users of the Waipakihi Rd access and other access rds likely not in the NZDA? But want action. Its a numbers game - the bigger the group/NZDA etc the more resources you have to fight back. Work together on these matters. 
> I personally would have thought this gate issue would have leaked out a while back to give stakeholders a chance to formulate a reply? 
> DOC have a huge estate to look after with little funding change over the years - they are near the bottom of Govt portfolios as they don't make much money for Govt. Bet if Cam Speedy was the big boss for the area, we would have heard about this road change way back? Just an opinion mine you.


I wouldn't be in a hurry to place bets if I were you.
Cam was able to shed some light on the topic so has probably known about it for awhile.
My interpretation of his explanation is that he is opposed to it from a hunting and animal control perspective but sympathetic to the landowners for their reasons. That is my interpretation, but I may be wrong. 
I have similar views.

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## Hunteast

Fair enough - all we want is guaranteed access along the road to the park boundary which due to the distance to the park more feesible by vehicle than walking from SH1. I used Cam as an example for exactly that - hunting access - game management, Iwi maintain their business side for operational interest but by default potentially get exclusive hunting access which may end up being an extension of the mountain biking? Time will tell i guess.

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## Tahr

I expect that in the eyes of the public, and commercial operators, mountain bikers and walking access for hunters with firearms will be incompatible. Damn shame but probably a game stopper. Hope not.

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## Woody

If it's good enough for pushbikes then it's good enough for horses. The've been there since end of WW1 and were transport of choice for hunters traditionally. We went thru paradise valley to  three kings range hunting when I was a nipper.

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## XR500

> I expect that in the eyes of the public, and commercial operators, mountain bikers and walking access for hunters with firearms will be incompatible. Damn shame but probably a game stopper. Hope not.


If you look on Google Earth and pick up the MTB track alignment on private land you will see its miles away from the Public land that the current legal access of Waipakahi road permits access to.

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## Mohawk .308

> I expect that in the eyes of the public, and commercial operators, mountain bikers and walking access for hunters with firearms will be incompatible. Damn shame but probably a game stopper. Hope not.


That argument doesn’t really stack up, there are lots of shared tracks around that both hunters and mountain bikers use. The Kaipo track into the Oamaru is one example, Moerangi track in the Whirinaki is another.

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## Ross Nolan

> I expect that in the eyes of the public, and commercial operators, mountain bikers and walking access for hunters with firearms will be incompatible. Damn shame but probably a game stopper. Hope not.


I walked with a rifle up the Te Iringa track this month, and shared it with a number of mountain bikers - lots of conversation, no problems.

Be the change you want to see.

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## 25/08IMP

> I walked with a rifle up the Te Iringa track this month, and shared it with a number of mountain bikers - lots of conversation, no problems.
> 
> Be the change you want to see.


So can you get all the way through to the Oamaru on a mountain bike.

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## Shearer

I am getting the impression there are different "facts" about the land tenure depending on what source you choose. Perhaps the information given to the PGF was that which suited the applicants and it was not scrutinised thoroughly. I am watching this space with great interest.

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## Shearer

> So can you get all the way through to the Oamaru on a mountain bike.
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


Yes. Over Te Iringa. Not up Porinui.

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## 25/08IMP

> Yes. Over Te Iringa. Not up Porinui.


Awesome ill have to go and check it out

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## Ross Nolan

> Awesome ill have to go and check it out
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


I beat the group of mountain bikers I left with to the old hut site- 2 legs is faster uphill than 2 wheels.

Came a bit second from there though....

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## Mohawk .308

> Awesome ill have to go and check it out
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


If your into your mountain biking check out the Moerangi  track in the Whirinaki. I walked in but it would a a great ride on a bike. Awesome hut and plenty of animals around. I saw two deer and a pig from the track.

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## Ross Nolan

> I am getting the impression there are different "facts" about the land tenure depending on what source you choose. Perhaps the information given to the PGF was that which suited the applicants and it was not scrutinised thoroughly. I am watching this space with great interest.


When Helisika replied to another of my emails they were careful to point out that the land owners were responsible for the gate.

I suspect that this is a case of people believing the version that best suits their purposes, and everyone thinking someone else has done the checking.

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## Friwi

It would be interesting to see when the resource consent was lodged to the local council for the building of the infrastructures.
And when a new business venture is opened like that, legally is there not some sort of announcements to has be made in the local press ? ( not that I read much about my local press either).

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## Hunteast

What happens on private land can stay on private land. But the road leading to the park boundary may be another story. This is the real issue we are all interested in?

----------


## Friwi

Precisely, at what stage did it transitioned from a a private land enterprise going to encroach onto public land access ?(without any sort of announcement or consultation or did I miss something there?)
Of course private enterprise do pretty much what ever they want on their property.

----------


## Hunteast

Well defining the status of who owns the road, is and has been the issue right from the start of this thread. From an earlier statement on this thread DOC Turangi appear to be aware of a gate going up on Waipakihi Rd so that is a sure indication of private road ownership whatever interpretation of your WAMS maps. Personally i would have thought the replies from DOC on the matter would have said yeah - private road or not - since DOC are a Govt Dept and should be able to confirm this? Then someone challenge the status if they are incorrect in their WAMs interpretation? I have to suspect there are groups of interest now checking all this out behind the scenes and we will be notified in due course? Fingers crossed.

----------


## Dazzh

I have spoken with the land transfer office who assured me the road is public and not part of the Rangipo block

----------


## Mohawk .308

It’d be a good day if it turns out they hadn’t done their homework.

----------


## Shootm

I might be completely wrong here 

Last times I have hunted from the  Waipakihi road end, yes there is a new gate but it is off to the right hand side of the road in the Maori owned land.
The road access was the same as it always has been.


I can’t say the same for the other roads because I haven’t been there, only been to the Waipakihi.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> I might be completely wrong here 
> 
> Last times I have hunted from the  Waipakihi road end, yes there is a new gate but it is off to the right hand side of the road in the Maori owned land.
> The road access was the same as it always has been.
> 
> 
> I can’t say the same for the other roads because I haven’t been there, only been to the Waipakihi.


That’ll be the gate to the new helisika hangar but they are,supposedly going to put a gate at the start of the road blocking access to public land

----------


## XR500

Ross said he's going there today. I'm sure he'll put up a picture here if there is such a gate being constructed on the Waipakahi road alignment. We can all keep our panties unbunched till then. :Thumbsup:

----------


## Mohawk .308

> Ross said he's going there today. I'm sure he'll put up a picture here if there is such a gate being constructed on the Waipakahi road alignment. We can all keep our panties unbunched till then.


Well given the reply Tahr got from DoC Turangi, I think we have every right to get our panties bunched up, unless you think they’re are telling porkies.

Kia ora xxx, 

Thanks for contacting us. Yes both Waipakihi Road and Rangipo Intake roads will closing. The land is privately owned and the owners are closing the roads. 

If you have enquiries please contact Lake Rotoira Forest Trust PH07-386 8834 https://www.lrft.co.nz/

The Kaimanawa Forest Park can still be accessed via other access roads such as Tree Trunk Gorge Road, Kaimanawa Road.

----------


## imaca

It's a blatant move to secure access for commercial gain.  If morons dumping or being general morons is the reason for the gate then access would have been cut off years ago. When it happens in conjunction with a commercial operation it is a cynical move to force the public to use that commercial operation to access the area, both the private land which I have no problem with, but also the public which I do.

A lot will depend on where the gate is though

----------


## Woody

DoC apparrently have said the Genisis Rangipo road is also to be closed. This also provides very good park access and the area is extremely scenic and great for family picnics near the lake surrounds. Genisis is an SOE and was publicly owned by NZED prior to the SOE splitups. I see no valid reason why or how this public access and amenity should be denied.

----------


## XR500

I'm just taking it one step at a time.

Though the evidence to date does seem to indicate that there's some crossed wires somewhere: Public ownerships vs private intent.

----------


## JustAnotherSpearo

Hi there guys, spent the night down by the river last night, I only come down to camp, relax get away from society. Noticed the bollards and wondered what is going on. Will be interested to see the outcome after reading the information on here. 

Hopefully it has uploaded but definitely looks like a gate will be going in.

----------


## Ross Nolan

Beat me to it

Absent a gate, this isn't a problem. Every official website shows this as a public road, so I'm wondering if the due diligence was done.

The only rubbish I saw on Waipakaki rd was at the sh1 end, but if the land owners are really upset as opposed to performatively so then I'd think that this would be a perfect pd project. The opportunity to learn about the whenua while doing a public good - awesome. I've got a truck with a 4.2m bed and 2t capacity I'd be happy to bring to the event, and if the tip won't comp the fees I'll stump up for them too.

----------


## Shearer

> Beat me to it
> 
> Absent a gate, this isn't a problem. Every official website shows this as a public road, so I'm wondering if the due diligence was done.
> 
> The only rubbish I saw on Waipakaki rd was at the sh1 end, but if the land owners are really upset as opposed to performatively so then I'd think that this would be a perfect pd project. The opportunity to learn about the whenua while doing a public good - awesome. I've got a truck with a 4.2m bed and 2t capacity I'd be happy to bring to the event, and if the tip won't comp the fees I'll stump up for them too.


You would have a labour force just down the road at Rangipo Prison. :Grin:

----------


## Ross Nolan

Pd is the place just before Rangipo.....

----------


## Shearer

I received this from FMC (Federated Mountain Clubs of NZ) today.

Kia ora.

Your query has been passed onto me. 

I actually only found out about this on Friday. These roads sit on private land, and so the landowner is within their rights to put gates on them if they like. Having said that, Waipakihi road access is quite critical for hunters, trampers and paddlers. I'm unsure if this has been taken into account before the gate was put across the road. I have some relationships with the landowners in the area, so I'm in the process of getting in touch with them to see if we can find an amicable solution.

Doesn't sound like they have had a heads up about it either???

----------


## Tahr

> I received this from FMC (Federated Mountain Clubs of NZ) today.
> 
> Kia ora.
> 
> Your query has been passed onto me. 
> 
> I actually only found out about this on Friday. These roads sit on private land, and so the landowner is within their rights to put gates on them if they like. Having said that, Waipakihi road access is quite critical for hunters, trampers and paddlers. I'm unsure if this has been taken into account before the gate was put across the road. I have some relationships with the landowners in the area, so I'm in the process of getting in touch with them to see if we can find an amicable solution.
> 
> Doesn't sound like they have had a heads up about it either???


Private land, huh. As expected.

----------


## Timmay

Those gates won't last long  :XD:

----------


## XR500

There. Fixed it for you




> Private land, _either side of a public road_. As expected.


Just about every bit of On Line data maintained by government departments responsible for such information, show it as a public road sandwiched between Maori Trust land.

The icing on the cake will be when a forum member who has asked for such information from the Maori land Court receives a copy of the Title.

----------


## Dazzh

Waiting on title as we speak. Ordered this morning.

----------


## Beavis

I saw it mentioned on a Facebook thread that Tree Trunk Gorge Rd is also being closed and gated off as well. I cannot speak to the accuracy of that claim but it would be good to know. Disappointing all around though. Lots of great memories made down the Waipakihi.

----------


## RUMPY

I have also been in contact with FMC and the executive committee member I've emailed has a meeting booked with one of the local Kaumatua next week to have a quiet chat about access on these roads. 
She has also asked me what hunting groups she could contact in regards to finding out the importance of access to this area. 
I have suggested Cam Speedy, NZDA, Greg and Willie Duley and the  Game Animal Council as possibilities. 

At this stage, depending on the title boundaries, I think that an amicable agreement may be what's needed.

----------


## erniec

I liked the previous post but I do urge caution.
Do not give away what you already have especially if it is a legal public access.
Take time to establish what is the rules of engagement.

----------


## Woody

Agree.

----------


## RUMPY

Yes exactly @erniec. If it's a public road then it's to remain open TO THE PUBLIC. 

I have looked at maps where as stated in other posts the land titles are on each side but the road is separate. 

Does anyone know who has maintained the road for the last 50-60 years?

----------


## 57jl

> I saw it mentioned on a Facebook thread that Tree Trunk Gorge Rd is also being closed and gated off as well. I cannot speak to the accuracy of that claim but it would be good to know. Disappointing all around though. Lots of great memories made down the Waipakihi.


I share the same sort of memories BEAVIS   from days gone by, bit gutted really we were the lucky ones. the world seems to be turning into a silly place and is catching up to us. sorry I meant the people with the big teeth that run us if you know what I mean

----------


## Blaser

In the past 30 years I've hunted up the Waipakihi the road has had very little if any maintenance, hence the massive potholes.

----------


## XR500

Have you driven it recently???

No one is the correct answer. The tar seal has done a good job holding hands for all these years, but the potholes are almost winning

----------


## RUMPY

If you're asking me, no I haven't driven it for about 10 years.

----------


## XR500

Yeah, I regularly (twice a year maybe??) drive it. Have done so from the late 70's till now. Can't remember ever seeing any work being done on the road.
Come to think of it, there may have been some work done on the steep incline the seal finishes  on now, and the washed out culvert in the late 80's. Would have been for the power board dudes to maintain access to the water gauge at the very end of the track. Once you hit the bottom of the incline, the legal road alignment turns right only. All those tracks heading downstream appear to be  on private land.

----------


## PillowDribbler

There is a change in 2019 where some of those blocks got a street address and started paying rates.Heading down Waipakihi Rd the first section pays no rates then after that the land is rateable. Those blocks either side of rd have now got a boundary line. Info from Taupo Council Map.

----------


## Cigar

> There is a change in 2019 where some of those blocks got a street address and started paying rates.Heading down Waipakihi Rd the first section pays no rates then after that the land is rateable. Those blocks either side of rd have now got a boundary line. Info from Taupo Council Map.


The first part of the road is on conservation land, looks like about the first 1km or so.

----------


## paremata

The ceo of the NZDA spoke at out meeting last wednesday and bought this up so they were aware of it . What they can do or are doing he didn't say.

----------


## PillowDribbler

Yep Cigar,Looking at it another way,that part of rd is Tongariro National Park and not classed as rd so therefore it is a track which means did Helisika get a special concession to use that piece.Only other rd is SH45 to Whakapapa.

----------


## 300CALMAN

> Those gates won't last long


My thoughts exactly, they will need a guard 24/7 and a very long and solid fence on either side (it will get expensive). You do wounder whats going on.

----------


## Maxx

> Yep Cigar,Looking at it another way,that part of rd is Tongariro National Park and not classed as rd so therefore it is a track which means did Helisika get a special concession to use that piece.Only other rd is SH45 to Whakapapa.


That could well be a question worth asking?

----------


## Ross Nolan

I've just had a reporter from Stuff on the phone, apparently this is getting more coverage than just the website.

If anyone wants to talk with him PM me and I'll send your phone number.

Also, the titles are in hand and the trust doesn't own the road - but I'm still waiting on the Maori Land Court to get back to me.

----------


## Woody

I've had nil response so far from the MP for Taupo.

----------


## Ross Nolan

I got an email saying she was going to talk to Helisika and the trust, and silence thereafter.

I think there will be some scurrying happening currently.

----------


## Cigar

I came across records of an easement on the title to Genesis and it's successors, I assume it's for access to the hydro sites, but that doesn't automatically mean access for everyone.

----------


## Dazzh

All information gathered so far ie: Title, deposited drawings, Gazette notices etc need further consideration as the nomenclature is from a by gone age to my mind. I will pass these documents on to people with the appropriate qualifications and experience. On that note, is there a registered surveyor on this forum who could clarify the information contained in the drawings?

----------


## XR500

> I've just had a reporter from Stuff on the phone, apparently this is getting more coverage than just the website.
> 
> If anyone wants to talk with him PM me and I'll send your phone number.
> 
> Also, the titles are in hand and the trust doesn't own the road - but I'm still waiting on the Maori Land Court to get back to me.


Somebody from FMC or NZDA should be fronting this. Its a bloody  public access issue, its not just of interest to a hunting and shooting forum.

----------


## hunt08

A big thanks to everyone who working behind the scenes on this one it way out my depth on what to do

----------


## PillowDribbler

Genesis have been pretty good so i imagine that access down Rangipo Intake Rd will be left as is.Helesika and DOC have got some shady stuff going on as regards Waipakihi Rd.

----------


## Hindquarters

That is being done by both as we speak....

----------


## pennyless

I was recently told by Mark , Taupo NZDA President that the trust had informed him that the road was Maori Land and therefore he was not concerned.
That may have changed :-) .
Others locally have done their homework and are convinced it is Public.
They  have been stirring the Council and other parties about it.
There is also an article in the the BFD complete with maps which support the Public Road status.
The problem is to motivate the relevant agencies to enforce that access.
Pennyless

----------


## XR500

> I was recently told by Mark , Taupo NZDA President that the trust had informed him that the road was Maori Land and therefore he was not concerned.
> That may have changed :-) .
> Others locally have done their homework and are convinced it is Public.
> They  have been stirring the Council and other parties about it.
> There is also an article in the the BFD complete with maps which support the Public Road status.
> The problem is to motivate the relevant agencies to enforce that access.
> Pennyless


Thanks for that. have you got a link to the BFD article?? I have tried but failed to find it. Appears they don't have a search function

----------


## Cigar

It wasn't an article as such, it was a Letter to the Editor.

https://thebfd.co.nz/2022/07/25/publ...-RUfN5_4zDTTII

----------


## Dazzh

I think it is important to understand that Waipakihi road is not necessarily a "PUBLIC" road as such. It is a road formed for public works. It is equally important to understand that it is not owned by Iwi. The two questions myself and others are endeavoring to clarify are -
- Do the public have a legal right to use as access.
- Do Iwi have the right to deny public access. 

Clarification is needed and I have no doubt that it will be forthcoming.

----------


## RUMPY

> Somebody from FMC or NZDA should be fronting this. Its a bloody  public access issue, its not just of interest to a hunting and shooting forum.


As mentioned earlier I have contacted FMC and Megan is going to have a quiet chat to a local Kaumatua first off. Below is a piece from her email to me.

"Happy for you to share that FMC are looking at it and provide my email address so people can contact me if they would like to contribute information."

megan.dimozantos@fmc.org.nz

She also mentioned that she has been in touch with the Sika foundation and Cam Speedy and Mike Main are also working on this.

----------


## Ruger7mm

Hi all
The land the road is currently on does belong to the crown due to been taken under the Public Works Act in 1969 for electricity generation, however section 48 of the PWA allows the crown to also further that use if they please. That could be public access along the road, however it would also mean that LINZ the controlling authority would have to also permit the construction of a gate and closing the access. As the road corridor is drawn there is no room for parking along it, and the current area used for parking and access to the Waipakihi River is definitely on private land, so I am sure a solution can be found. Megan from FMC has this information and is currently in discussion with the Trust so I think it would be timely to let her approaches be made and see where to from there.

----------


## Dazzh

As to parking; Waipakihi road is a nominal 25 meters wide. I'd imagine development of rudimentary parking would not be a problem.

----------


## Ross Nolan

Where is DOC and their statutory responsibility to foster outdoor recreation and the public use of the conservation estate?

----------


## RUMPY

DOC don't seem to gaf if you refer back to page 10 where they replied to @Tahr s email. They confirmed the roads will be closing.

----------


## chainsaw

> Where is DOC and their statutory responsibility to foster outdoor recreation and the public use of the conservation estate?


They’re in Wellington CBD politburo with their heads up some dark places

----------


## omark

> I think it is important to understand that Waipakihi road is not necessarily a "PUBLIC" road as such. It is a road formed for public works. It is equally important to understand that it is not owned by Iwi. The two questions myself and others are endeavoring to clarify are -
> - Do the public have a legal right to use as access.
> - Do Iwi have the right to deny public access. 
> 
> Clarification is needed and I have no doubt that it will be forthcoming.


Roads are defined under the LGA and there is no ability to restrict legal access unless in specific circumstances which dont apply here. Be interesting to see nzdas response.

----------


## XR500

> Where is DOC and their statutory responsibility to foster outdoor recreation and the public use of the conservation estate?


When the NZFS became DOC back in 1st April 1987 the original name was The Department of Conservation and Recreation.
......That name lasted about 7 months... The Green fairies sprinkled their fairy dust over the name and it dropped the 'Recreation' bit.

----------


## Woody

Don't forget the same DoC outfit got caught out hiring PD firm to spy on citizens not so long ago.

----------


## PillowDribbler

DOC havent put up much of a fight for this access. Some of the trustees insitu could be a bit grumpy after past dealings with DOC.

----------


## 300Shortmag

The gates in and currently bolted back to a concrete block.

----------


## Nick.m

Saw this on Facebook yesterday.

----------


## XR500

Thanks for that  @Nick.m

Looking at the wording of that FMC  post I get the feeling they have become woke like most all entities (OK, I've said it!). The more principled position  would be to treat the public's right to access public land along public roads as sacrosanct.  The access is not across private land, its BETWEEN parcels of private land.  There is ample evidence the road is public land. Unseemly behaviour? Welcome to the real world. If blocking off access to legal road ends was to solve the issue of "unseemly behaviour" then every single roadend in NZ would be blocked off by now.

The Trust is grumpy with DOC re past dealings?? Not the Public's problem.

Yes, the land for Waipakahi road was taken under the Public Work act for construction of the Tongariro Power Project... guess what, plenty of New Zealand farmers, land owners, home owners etc have had their land taken by the Public works act (or equivalent). No ones crying them a river.

This has all the makings of a very slippery slope...

----------


## Cigar

I’m not convinced the road is public.
But either way I think the best option is to start friendly negotiations for access.

The last resort is to get DOC to close the first kilometre or so of the road that is on conservation land, so no one can access the rest of it. Ok

----------


## Ross Nolan

> I’m not convinced the road is public.
> But either way I think the best option is to start friendly negotiations for access.
> 
> The last resort is to get DOC to close the first kilometre or so of the road that is on conservation land, so no one can access the rest of it. Ok


The point at issue is that the road is not owned by the trust.
They have as much right to block it as I do the road outside my house.

That is, none.

Still nothing from the Maori Land Court. I'm sure they are busy with important matters though, and continue to hope that an answer will be forthcoming in due course.

----------


## Cigar

> The point at issue is that the road is not owned by the trust.


I'm not convinced of exactly that point. At this stage I have seen no actual evidence that the trust does not own the land the road is on.

FMC have posted on FB that they and other groups are talking with the trust about access.

----------


## Chelsea

Iv just had a little catch up on this thread. Thanks to those of you who have gone out of their way to get answers and shared their disappointment with the appropriate people in the hopes we can keep these roads open.

----------


## Dazzh

I'm posting this so that members can appreciate better the road coverage. It is essentially the same width it's entire length.
I am as appalled as any environmentally minded hunter when coming across rubbish and general debris, but this is an issue for the local governing authority who administer roads in their ward. Any trash and their leavings I have seen in my decades using Waipakihi road has been within the bounds of the road, therefore the responsibility of that organisation.

----------


## jono7

Rangipo Intake Road

----------


## PillowDribbler

Its going to be interesting to see what the signage says.

----------


## Dazzh

> I'm not convinced of exactly that point. At this stage I have seen no actual evidence that the trust does not own the land the road is on.
> 
> FMC have posted on FB that they and other groups are talking with the trust about access.


Have you gone in search of evidence?

----------


## Tahr

> Have you gone in search of evidence?


This can only be settled through 2 avenues. Neither include conjecture through here.

1) Negotiated access with the Trust by a statutory or credible organisation.
2) A legal challenge against the Trust for access. W

----------


## Tahr

> Have you gone in search of evidence?


This can only be settled through 2 avenues. Neither include conjecture through here.

1) Negotiated access with the Trust by a statutory or credible organisation.
2) A legal challenge against the Trust for access.

----------


## Dazzh

> This can only be settled through 2 avenues. Neither include conjecture through here.
> 
> 1) Negotiated access with the Trust by a statutory or credible organisation.
> 2) A legal challenge against the Trust for access.


Neither can be entered into without evidence, have you gone in search of evidence?

----------


## Dazzh

> This can only be settled through 2 avenues. Neither include conjecture through here.
> 
> 1) Negotiated access with the Trust by a statutory or credible organisation.
> 2) A legal challenge against the Trust for access.


Neither can be entered into without evidence, have you gone in search of evidence?

----------


## Tahr

> Neither can be entered into without evidence, have you gone in search of evidence?


Of course. It is my job.
There is no unequivocal evidence.
Strong evidence may inform or sway negotiation. Alternatively the weight of public opinion might hold sway despite the lack of evidence. Unlikely.
In the the absence of a negotiated agreement the strength of the evidence will need to be tested in the Courts.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> Of course. It is my job.
> There is no unequivocal evidence.
> Strong evidence may inform or sway negotiation. Alternatively the weight of public opinion might hold sway despite the lack of evidence. Unlikely.
> In the the absence of a negotiated agreement the strength of the evidence will need to be tested in the Courts.


You’d make a good politician for the Labour Party.

----------


## Tahr

> You’d make a good politician for the Labour Party.


Why do you say that? Speak up about your strategy for a public access outcome?

----------


## john m

Not just hunters and trampers use these roads.

----------


## Tahr

> Attachment 202777
> Attachment 202778
> Not just hunters and trampers use these roads.


Exactly. Waipakahi Rd is an iconic access point into the Kaimanawas.

----------


## Cigar

> Have you gone in search of evidence?


Yes I have.
Some indicates it isn't public land.
Some indicates it may not be private land.
Some indicates the road may be an easement on the private title (which does not change the ownership, and does not automatically mean the public have right of access).

Websites that show some relevant information don't show all the information needed to find out the answer (e.g the WAMS website).
None of the posts in this thread or the social media posts on this topic have shown evidence of ownership either way.

----------


## Sauer

Well I would say, Tahr, that determining the legal status of the road would be a good place to start rather than suggesting negotiation with a body who may or may not have the legal authority to grant or deny use of this road.

----------


## Tirau

Looking at the wams map about this I couldnt help to look at the road through poronui, I thought that was private but its a public rd, how come thats shut off🤷*♂️

----------


## Woody

Yes. Apart from my own family wr have often seen and spoken to others whp are picnicing or simply enjoying the pleasant environments in all flur roads and in particular Rangipo, Tree trunk gorge and Waipakihi. Removing vehicle access will definately exclude families, children and older persons from the Kaimanawa Forest park  infact most casual visitors and campers. Be a great loss to thousands if 24/7 vehicle free access is denied.

----------


## Tahr

> Well I would say, Tahr, that determining the legal status of the road would be a good place to start rather than suggesting negotiation with a body who may or may not have the legal authority to grant or deny use of this road.


So tell me how the legal status of the road (and its relevance to access) can be determined without a legal argument in Court? The only possibility outside of Court are arguments for or against in an attempt to gain some negotiation leverage (if one legal opinion appears to have greater weight than another). The Trust will certainly have taken legal advice and will have relied on that in making their decision about access.

Public opinion and a principled argument (maybe bolstered by a strong legal opinion) is most likely to win the day. "We are right and you are wrong" is unlikely to.

----------


## Dazzh

> Yes I have.
> Some indicates it isn't public land.
> Some indicates it may not be private land.
> Some indicates the road may be an easement on the private title (which does not change the ownership, and does not automatically mean the public have right of access).
> 
> Websites that show some relevant information don't show all the information needed to find out the answer (e.g the WAMS website).
> None of the posts in this thread or the social media posts on this topic have shown evidence of ownership either way.


Thanks for the reply. I don't have anything suggesting Waipakihi road is an easement over privately owned land. Would you be willing to share this document with me?

----------


## Shearer

> Looking at the wams map about this I couldn’t help to look at the road through poronui, I thought that was private but it’s a public rd, how come that’s shut off*♂️


In the case of Poronui, I believe that the public access route and the formed road do not coincide therefore it is public foot access only.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> Thanks for the reply. I don't have anything suggesting Waipakihi road is an easement over privately owned land. Would you be willing to share this document with me?


The maps show the road with its own title number, separate to the trust title number - which is the same on both sides of the road.
An easement wouldn't have a separate title.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> Thanks for the reply. I don't have anything suggesting Waipakihi road is an easement over privately owned land. Would you be willing to share this document with me?


The maps show the road with its own title number, separate to the trust title number - which is the same on both sides of the road.
An easement wouldn't have a separate title.

----------


## Cigar

> Thanks for the reply. I don't have anything suggesting Waipakihi road is an easement over privately owned land. Would you be willing to share this document with me?


I'll see if I can find the website again, I think it was a Maori land one.
It didn't say the road was an easement, it simply stated there was an easement to Genesis and it's successors, but not what the easement actually is.

https://www.maorilandonline.govt.nz/gis/title/19945.htm

The last line of the last table mentions the easement.

----------


## Dazzh

> I'll see if I can find the website again, I think it was a Maori land one.
> It didn't say the road was an easement, it simply stated there was an easement to Genesis and it's successors, but not what the easement actually is.


That would be appreciated, even if only to discount it.

----------


## Cigar

> The maps show the road with its own title number, separate to the trust title number - which is the same on both sides of the road.
> An easement wouldn't have a separate title.


Which maps? The WAMS property information one that show the road may be separate just say "no information available".

----------


## Ross Nolan

> Which maps? The WAMS property information one that show the road may be separate just say "no information available".


From the land transfer office.

----------


## Hunteast

In regards to Shearer's comment - i believe the paper rd through Poronui Station is actually poled partly through a swamp to the left of the access road that Poronui has allowed the public to walk on to the upper Mohaka? At least you have a reliable car park to safely park your vehicle? Our forefathers may not have walked the route in the day to see it wasn't very practical for a vehicle for most of it? The Waipakihi Road in comparison is just that - a formed rd suitable for driving a vehicle on. Doubt anyone would want to park their vehicle next to SH1 and hope its still there when they return?

----------


## ANTSMAN

> In the case of Poronui, I believe that the public access route and the formed road do not coincide therefore it is public foot access only.


Yep the public road stops at the big stone gate. The walking access was or is called a paper road- it is the owners of the property that decide if the walking track can be used- this changed or came up again 10 or 20 years ago.Difference here is all of the land past the stone gate is private including the privately maintained road for the properties vehicles.

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## Sauer

I’m sorry Tahr, but your (as of late) increasing petulance and fist thumping doesn’t impress me. If a legal determination in court in required to establish ownership is what is required, then that is what must occur.

No amount of negotiation with a group who do not have legal ownership will result in an agreement that has any legal standing.

I have a problem with large trucks parking on the grass berm outside my place and rutting it so badly I cannot mow it. From what you seem to be suggesting, it will be okay if I fence it off so they cannot park there - even though I don’t own the land. What utter bollocks.

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## Ross Nolan

I've got the original survey map in front of me, and it specifically says "Land taken". I also have the latest copy of the LINZ record which says the purpose is "Water development" .

Something that may bear clarifying is that prior to 1968 this land was part of the National Park. In 1968 there was essentially a simultaneous creation of the road, and the Trust blocks.
As separate pieces of land. That is, there are two Trust blocks, with a separate road between them. 

I am still waiting on the Maori Land Court to reply.

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## Ross Nolan

Duplicate post

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## Ross Nolan

Duplicate post.

WTF is going on with the forum currently - the speed is so slow that people (and me) are accidentally double (or triple) posting thinking that the first hasn't gone through.

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## Dazzh

> I've got the original survey map in front of me, and it specifically says "Land taken". I also have the latest copy of the LINZ record which says the purpose is "Water development" .
> 
> Something that may bear clarifying is that prior to 1968 this land was part of the National Park. In 1968 there was essentially a simultaneous creation of the road, and the Trust blocks.
> As separate pieces of land. That is, there are two Trust blocks, with a separate road between them. 
> 
> I am still waiting on the Maori Land Court to reply.


I am holding documents that back this up. Something of interest is the the original survey shows the road being 100 feet (30 meters wide). The latest deposited drawings show it as 25 meters.

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## PillowDribbler

Add to Cigars,WAMS Property Information Map has those easements highlighted in black. First one down Rangipo Intake Rd is a triangle piece and the second is at the T intersection on sealed piece.

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## Dazzh

> Duplicate post.
> 
> WTF is going on with the forum currently - the speed is so slow that people (and me) are accidentally double (or triple) posting thinking that the first hasn't gone through.


Now now Mr Nolan, don't dis the forum or you may be gated.

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## PillowDribbler

Dont know about Waipakihi but Rangipo has had a lot of surveying done lately locating boundary pegs.

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## Ross Nolan

The Maori Land Court has just replied, as below. They misinterpreted the query, but the points are 1) this is Crown Land, and 2) there doesn't appear to be any agreement regarding any modification of the road.

_Tēnā koe Ross

Regarding your enquiry, the gazette notice NZG50/1344, its one of those attached documents you sent us with the LINZ reference 830361.2, it indicates that the area that goes through the middle of the Rangipo North 7C block was taken by the Crown for the purpose of the development of water power (Tongariro Power Scheme).  

Without access to the M.O.W. 22306 (S.O. 27023) plan which the gazette notice quotes, I can only assume that the 19 acres 2 roods 19.1 perches stated in the gazette notice is the alignment that you can see going through the middle of 7C.

As to ownership of the road that goes over this easement, technically it belongs to the Crown (local government) since this easement is owned by the Crown and what is on it belongs to the Crown.

If it is determined that another entity such as the Rangipo North 7C Trust is claiming ownership of the road, this may not be correct.  They may have built the road and laid out all the costs for the road construction however approval by the Crown would have needed to of been sought from the Crown first before the Trust built the road over the easement.  This scenario would come about if the road was built after the area was set aside as an easement back in 1968.

If it is determined that the roadway was already in place before the easement was established then the Trust should have at least been given permission by the Crown to continue using the road.  An arrangement that may be noted elsewhere on the LINZ record (we have nothing on our record other than a copy of the gazette notice) or is one that can be reached with both Trust and the Crown, if the Crown chooses to take that up with the Trust.

If the M.O.W. 22306 (S.O. 27023) plan verifies the 19 acres 2 roods 19.1 perches as being this alignment, then the information given above is correct.

I trust this helps to answer your questions.
_

This all seems pretty clear, and is in line with what I thought at the beginning. Everyone involved someone else had done the due diligence, or were just acting on what they knew, not what was actually the truth.

Might be time for a few people to reconsider their positions.

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## Longrun

So, public access should be maintained then?

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## Ross Nolan

Ask a Lawyer. @Tahr?

I believe so, and every document I have found, plus discussions with DOC would suggest the same. 

Over to Helisika and the trust now, but the gates are looking dodgy.

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## Shearer

LINZ may be the key to this. I believe they contract out their property management to private providers who may have been in a position to "do a deal" with the trust. Just because it is crown land does not guarantee public access.

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## Longrun

They look like a local with tractor and chains could minister to them.

We've probably seen a bit of should happen and what transpires over the last few years.

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## Dazzh

> So, public access should be maintained then?


Right now the answer to your question is yes as there is no agreement to be found between the crown and the private land owners. But access is far from being secure.

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## Ross Nolan

Something I should have said at the beginning is that I am in agreement with the Trust and DOC regarding some of the behaviours on the RHA. 4WDing up the river and the damage it causes isn't a good thing in my eyes - and I enjoy getting the 80 series stuck in interesting and unusual places. It would seem that the best solution would be to gate  the road at the bottom of the hill and put in parking there. Maybe a rubbish bin or two?

Personally, I'd like to see rubbish dumpers flogged (don't mind if it is in public or not), but I'll settle for the place being kept clean.

As Buddha said so perfectly, don't be an arsehole.

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## Dazzh

Given that there appears to be no agreement between the crown and any private land owner, the gate and adjoining walls (open or closed) represents an obstruction that has no legal right being there. 
This structure needs to be removed for a number of reasons including and importantly because it is divisive and serves no constructive purpose.

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## PillowDribbler

If all this has to go through the court system to sort out,could be years.

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## Ross Nolan

It doesn't have to go anywhere near a court.
The Authorities are in agreement on ownership. The Crown owns the land and the road.
If the Trust cannot produce an agreement giving permission to build the gate, they must remove it.

I'd suggest putting it at the bottom of the hill, next to a map showing the local boundaries.

----------


## Shearer

> It doesn't have to go anywhere near a court.
> The Authorities are in agreement on ownership. The Crown owns the land and the road.
> If the Trust cannot produce an agreement giving permission to build the gate, they must remove it.
> 
> I'd suggest putting it at the bottom of the hill, next to a map showing the local boundaries.


I agree with you about the trusts right to put a gate on crown land without the appropriate consent, but as I said, just because it is crown land that does not mean public access is guaranteed.

----------


## Woody

If it's "crown land" then it belongs to the NZ Citizens and there would have to a very strong reason to suddenly deny what has been normal public access established for around 50 years imo.

----------


## Shearer

> If it's "crown land" then it belongs to the NZ Citizens and there would have to a very strong reason to suddenly deny what has been normal public access established for around 50 years imo.


I agree. Just saying it's not a done deal.

----------


## Dazzh

No it is not a done deal, but we now have enough information at hand from the appropriate departments to understand ownership. People need to understand though that the crown can enter into an agreement that could still see a barrier in place. At this point in time, there doesn't appear to be such an agreement.

----------


## Ruger7mm

The title that is publicly available and the entry in the gazette (1969) on page 1334? shows that the land was taken by the crown through a process set down in the Public Works Act for the purpose of water control (electricity generation), that purpose did not include public access, however section 48 of the act allows for the controlling authority to grant an easement over the land for other purposes. It would also mean that for a structure such as gates to be built on the said crown land permission from the controlling authority would also be required. I believe the controlling authority to be LINZ (Land Information NZ) whose minister is Damien O'Connor. If LINZ did give permission without consulting the stakeholders with an interest such as DOC and the District Council then that is a very sad state of affairs, I think the question should be put to LINZ asking what knowledge they have of the situation and to come clean if they approved this in committee.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> The title that is publicly available and the entry in the gazette (1969) on page 1334? shows that the land was taken by the crown through a process set down in the Public Works Act for the purpose of water control (electricity generation), that purpose did not include public access, however section 48 of the act allows for the controlling authority to grant an easement over the land for other purposes. It would also mean that for a structure such as gates to be built on the said crown land permission from the controlling authority would also be required. I believe the controlling authority to be LINZ (Land Information NZ) whose minister is Damien O'Connor. If LINZ did give permission without consulting the stakeholders with an interest such as DOC and the District Council then that is a very sad state of affairs, I think the question should be put to LINZ asking what knowledge they have of the situation and to come clean if they approved this in committee.


Would such an agreement not need to be gazetted or otherwise published? There would have to be a record somewhere, but neither Land Transfer Office nor the Maori Land Court could find it.

Occam's razor suggests that nobody checked before starting the post hole borer.

Additionally, the Crown has shown no desire to restrict access over the last 54 years.

----------


## Dazzh

> The title that is publicly available and the entry in the gazette (1969) on page 1334? shows that the land was taken by the crown through a process set down in the Public Works Act for the purpose of water control (electricity generation), that purpose did not include public access, however section 48 of the act allows for the controlling authority to grant an easement over the land for other purposes. It would also mean that for a structure such as gates to be built on the said crown land permission from the controlling authority would also be required. I believe the controlling authority to be LINZ (Land Information NZ) whose minister is Damien O'Connor. If LINZ did give permission without consulting the stakeholders with an interest such as DOC and the District Council then that is a very sad state of affairs, I think the question should be put to LINZ asking what knowledge they have of the situation and to come clean if they approved this in committee.


Would you be interested in following that up? Both Ross and I have put considerable time into this matter, but as for me and I'm sure Ross, will not be offended if someone else steps up and fires off an email.

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## Ruger7mm

I have sent an email to LINZ following this up, will let you know what returns

----------


## omark

> Im sorry Tahr, but your (as of late) increasing petulance and fist thumping doesnt impress me. If a legal determination in court in required to establish ownership is what is required, then that is what must occur.
> 
> No amount of negotiation with a group who do not have legal ownership will result in an agreement that has any legal standing.
> 
> I have a problem with large trucks parking on the grass berm outside my place and rutting it so badly I cannot mow it. From what you seem to be suggesting, it will be okay if I fence it off so they cannot park there - even though I dont own the land. What utter bollocks.



Why do you need to go to Court. THE GIS maps, planning maps and LINZ records show it as road. if its a road under the LGA then the public have free right of access across it. End of Story.

----------


## omark

> Why do you need to go to Court. THE GIS maps, planning maps and LINZ records show it as road. if its a road under the LGA then the public have free right of access across it. End of Story.




also the Taupo District Council is I assume the road controlling Authority in this instance. The mayor is a good bloke. He should be able to shed some light on the matter from TDCs perspective.

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## Dazzh

> also the Taupo District Council is I assume the road controlling Authority in this instance. The mayor is a good bloke. He should be able to shed some light on the matter from TDCs perspective.


I have had communication with a TDC Councillor and have recieved information that is in conflict with much of what we have come to understand to be true. I am awaiting a response to an email sent this morning. I will be back in touch with this councillor tomorrow morning.

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## Tahr

> Why do you need to go to Court. THE GIS maps, planning maps and LINZ records show it as road. if its a road under the LGA then the public have free right of access across it. End of Story.


Opinions and interpretations seldom lead to "end of story" although they might add weight to an argument. What might appear to be black and white often becomes grey when opposing views are tabled. 

Hopefully though some sort of access can be maintained.

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## Shearer

> I have had communication with a TDC Councillor and have recieved information that is in conflict with much of what we have come to understand to be true. I am awaiting a response to an email sent this morning. I will be back in touch with this councillor tomorrow morning.


If that strip of "road" is not ratable then the TDC records are unlikely to be reliable as those records are only kept for rating purposes.
Also, has it been established that this piece of land is in fact legal road?

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## Dazzh

No. Although it is signposted as Waipakihi road, it is still unclear if it is in fact a "road". What is clear is that it is crown land ie: not privately owned. I will look back through what I have, but I think it is zoned "Rural Environment".

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## RUMPY

There's also references that the land was taken so with the current government the trust will just ask for it back if they have no legal ownership today. I'm on the fence between talking nicely for the best outcome or fighting tooth and nail for what the titles seem to be showing. 
I  haven't heard anything back from Megan yet but it'll be interesting to see how her chat goes.

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## Dazzh

The land was taken when it still existed as Tongariro national park, not private land. The term TAKEN may not mean precisely what you think. Maybe That could chime in here for some insight.

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## Woody

These four + access routes were built to be roads in the first place and used as such. Roads vehicular or vehicle access routes- tracks; same thing is'nt it.
Oxford dictionary definition:
road
/rəʊd/
Learn to pronounce
See definitions in:
All
Transportation
Mining
noun
1.
a wide way leading from one place to another, especially one with a specially prepared surface which vehicles can use.
"a country road"

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## Dazzh

> The land was taken when it still existed as Tongariro national park, not private land. The term TAKEN may not mean precisely what you think. Maybe That could chime in here for some insight.


Apologies for my spelling and grammar.
-  Not mean quite what you think.
-  Maybe Thar could give a little insight into the implications of "Taken"

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## Shearer

> These four + access routes were built to be roads in the first place and used as such. Roads vehicular or vehicle access routes- tracks; same thing is'nt it.
> Oxford dictionary definition:
> road
> /rəʊd/
> Learn to pronounce
> See definitions in:
> All
> Transportation
> Mining
> ...


Now look up the definition of "legal road".

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## Woody

Do you think NZED used "illegal roads"?

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## Dazzh

> Do you think NZED used "illegal roads"?


Yip, and they probably fined themselves for doing it.... As a tax break.

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## Woody

And the NZED spawned some SOEs which continue to use the ""roads"" !

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## Woody

Here is a bit of history that might be relevant.
Some of you may know of View road which connects Broadlands rd to Aratitia Dam and SH5. This road was built by NZED and was "unclassified as class 1 or 2 or 3  and commonly used by class 1 trucks to avoid the nth broadland rd class2 weight restrictions. My understanding was that it was an "unofficial road" built to allow the dam consyruction and servicing from Wairakie hydro village and to Broadlands road. Now today it still serves the dam maintainance role but also serves to provide public and tourist access to the dam and Aratiatia rapids, rapids jet, polocross grounds and walkway up to Huka falls  and the Rotokawa geothetmal power station and Fullfames rapids as well as a regular road traffic thoroughfare. 
I see the four access roads off desert road as qualifying to follow this and pther NZED  and similar public works precedents. Also note that the SOEs are still majority NZ public owned shares.

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## Dazzh

> Here is a bit of history that might be relevant.
> Some of you may know of View road which connects Broadlands rd to Aratitia Dam and SH5. This road was built by NZED and was "unclassified as class 1 or 2 or 3  and commonly used by class 1 trucks to avoid the nth broadland rd class2 weight restrictions. My understanding was that it was an "unofficial road" built to allow the dam consyruction and servicing from Wairakie hydro village and to Broadlands road. Now today it still serves the dam maintainance role but also serves to provide public and tourist access to the dam and Aratiatia rapids, rapids jet, polocross grounds and walkway up to Huka falls  and the Rotokawa geothetmal power station and Fullfames rapids as well as a regular road traffic thoroughfare. 
> I see the four access roads off desert road as qualifying to follow this and pther NZED  and similar public works precedents. Also note that the SOEs are still majority NZ public owned shares.


It is interesting that you mention this road, it is the very same road a resource consent specialist used as an example while talking with him about Waipakihi road today.

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## Ruger7mm

Waipakihi Road maybe a "road" in function and structure, however doesn't have the legal status of "legal road to pass and re pass", even if the title says it is owned by the Crown that doesn't mean it is actually a legal road. The land was aquired rather than taken through a process that pays the private owners going value for the land, although in my opinion the buyer has more advantage than the seller.

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## Woody

But also consider the tenure of the land when the Tongariro project initiated. Consider too the Mangakino village and Karapiro and Arapuni amongst others.

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## XR500

> Waipakihi Road maybe a "road" in function and structure, however doesn't have the legal status of "legal road to pass and re pass", even if the title says it is owned by the Crown that doesn't mean it is actually a legal road. The land was aquired rather than taken through a process that pays the private owners going value for the land, although in my opinion the buyer has more advantage than the seller.


It was "acquired" from one Government department (Tongariro National Park) by another (NZED). The land in question was gifted by  Horonuku Te Heuheu Tūkino IV, starting back in the late 1800's and finishing up as what we see as the TNP in the very early 1900's.  The land either side only became Maori Trust land at the same time as the road was surveyed off and became Crown Land.

For it suddenly to become not Crown land would seem mighty suspicious, given the 54 odd year history of the road being used by the public to access the Kaimanawa Forest Park.

With all the literature that's gone back and forth between forum members and government departments, it looks to me that this issue needs as much sunlight as possible...right now... to ensure ultimate transparency over what happens to Crown land and the public access it has afforded us all for over the last half century.

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## Tahr

The word "take" refers to the compulsory acquisition of land.

See here page 23
https://www.businessnz.org.nz/__data...mpensation.pdf

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## Dazzh

> The word "take" refers to the compulsory acquisition of land.
> 
> See here page 23
> https://www.businessnz.org.nz/__data...mpensation.pdf


A synopsis would have been sufficient lol!
Thank you for the info.

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## Ross Nolan

The land was taken from the Tongariro National Park, not iwi. The trust land holdings were created at the same time, in part as a compensatory land swap for the power scheme.

Regardless of whether it is a road or not, nobody other than the Crown has the right to erect a structure on it.

At the same time, only the Crown has the right to bar access, and for the entirety of the "road's" existence, the Crown has chosen to not do so. 

Edit to add XR500 said the same as I was typing

----------


## XR500

Here's where it all started. Great historic footage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kbg9_z0fGo&t=3s

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## Bagheera

Photos taken today down by the far end of Waipakihi Rd.  This seems to be a side road going into the privatre land.





Unfortunately, my mate didn't take much notice of an open gate across the Waipakihi Rd closer to SH1, but noted it would be a fair way to walk to the end of the road.   Presumably that is the one photographed under the power lines a few pages earlier in this thread.

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## Dazzh

> Here's where it all started. Great historic footage
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kbg9_z0fGo&t=3s


Love the center folds in the workshop!

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## XR500

@9min.22secs, must be one of the single lads off this forum :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:

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## Dazzh

Reminds me of the annex room off the workshop during my apprenticeship, just missing a half dozen bottles of Coruba and a bunch of drunken old Tradesmen.

----------


## Bagheera

Now for something completely speculative:

If there were a gate across Waipakihi Rd, then whatever may be said, there would be the possibility that someone could close it at some time.  It would be most inconvenient if it were closed while you were in the bush and had to negotiate nicely with the key holder to come and let you out.  From a practical point of view, whatever the law (and as Tahr points out there isn't just one black and white law), the existence of a physical gate is a real and ongoing threat to access.  Therefore, if at all possible it must be prevented before it can be completed.  Even if the gate has no legal standing, an ordinary person may not be entitled to remove it, as the materials would belong to someone else (the same as say your camping gear or a car parked beside the road).

Now, as for the land having been taken from the Tongariro National Park, it has been proposed that the wording of the gifting document may have differed in English and Maori ("The fate of our national estate" George Driver North & South magazine August 2022 p36) and that Tukino only agreed to share the taonga, not to give away all ownership.  A legal challenge to reestablish public access in the presence of an already locked gate would be an up hill battle, even if it could ultimately be vindicated.

----------


## Ross Nolan

The road easement is 25 meters wide, and the gate is considerably less than that.
Just drive around the bloody thing. DOC won't care, it isn't their land, and the trust don't own it either, so as long as you don't drive on trust land they have no standing.

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## stug

The original gifting of tongariro national park was quite a small area around the vents of the three volcanoes. The land down by the desert road was not part of the original gift.

----------


## stug

https://sacredland.org/wp-content/up...-mgmt-plan.pdf

----------


## Ross Nolan

> The road easement is 25 meters wide, and the gate is considerably less than that.
> Just drive around the bloody thing. DOC won't care, it isn't their land, and the trust don't own it either, so as long g as you don't drive on trust land they have no standing.


Note
Comment made for satirical purposes. 
Always consult with your lawyer before starting any course of action based on advice from Ross Nolan.

----------


## Bagheera

Could say the same about my comment. I meant prevent by legal determination like an injunction. 
Speaking as a bush lawyer

----------


## Friwi

So do we know who ordered the gates to be put in? There must have been some financial or budget approval for the installation of that gate?
Follow the money…

----------


## Ross Nolan

The money came from Shane Jones and the election bribe account (provincial growth fund), so in effect from you. 
The details are laid out early in the thread in the HELISIKA/Trust agreement.
Essentially the PFF pays construction costs, helisika pays maintenance and operational costs over a 15 year period and the trust owns the buildings and improvements.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> The original gifting of tongariro national park was quite a small area around the vents of the three volcanoes. The land down by the desert road was not part of the original gift.


The land the trust and road are on were from purchases subsequent to the original gift of the summits- as your pdf. Are you saying the purchases should not stand?
If so, I sold a house in Birkenhead last century I'd quite like back, and I'd quite like to reexamine the sale of my great grandparents farm at Pirongia also

----------


## stug

> The land the trust and road are on were from purchases subsequent to the original gift of the summits- as your pdf. Are you saying the purchases should not stand?
> If so, I sold a house in Birkenhead last century I'd quite like back, and I'd quite like to reexamine the sale of my great grandparents farm at Pirongia also


No, the way I read someone elses post it seemed as though they were saying the part of TNP near the desert Rd was part of the land gifted to the park. I was just showing the land near desert Rd was acquired through other means.

----------


## PillowDribbler

If he didnt see that other gate they might have been removed.

----------


## 300CALMAN

Maybe the gate is just a muck stirring exercise to get attention and maybe some Koha? It wouldn't be the first time...

----------


## XR500

They have already received 'koha' from the taxpayer to the tune of, (back of the fag packet calc) a million. Possibly a bit less.

----------


## Ranger 888

Guys, guys, guys.....wait until the "T" word creeps into this debate. Treaty. And the "C" word...Co-governance. The last 23 pages of facts/opinions on this thread may well become redundant. If Maori sense they have been wronged in any way, and they can gain from that, they will go for redress. Watch this space.

----------


## Tahr

> Guys, guys, guys.....wait until the "T" word creeps into this debate. Treaty. And the "C" word...Co-governance. The last 23 pages of facts/opinions on this thread may well become redundant. If Maori sense they have been wronged in any way, and they can gain from that, they will go for redress. Watch this space.


Got anything constructive to say about the topic? Or do you just want to voice your prejudice.

----------


## Dazzh

This morning I received this email from TDC CEO Gareth Green. 

Hi Darrin.



Further to the below email to Councillor Mack, he has referred it to me for further investigation.  My team are currently looking into who owns the land and therefore whos asset Waipakahi Road is, as well as what rights of public access are over this land.  While it is clear that it is not Council land or asset, we should be able to get that clarity for you.  This may take a few days, but I wanted to let you know that we will get back to you in due course. 



Cheers



Gareth Green  Apiha Iho Matua - Chief Executive Officer

Will keep you posted.

----------


## Ruger7mm

Hi all
My enquiry to LINZ has been acknowledged and passed onto Crown Property to respond. Will pass on any news as received.
Cheers Ruger7mm

----------


## Shearer

> Hi all
> My enquiry to LINZ has been acknowledged and passed onto Crown Property to respond. Will pass on any news as received.
> Cheers Ruger7mm


Is this where the Crown Property lease of that land parcel to the trust mysteriously emerges????

----------


## 25/08IMP

This was posted on a FB page 

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

----------


## Ranger 888

> Got anything constructive to say about the topic? Or do you just want to voice your prejudice.


I was being constructive, and voicing my freedom of speech, Tahr. I deal in reality, not prejudice.

----------


## Bagheera

Freedom of speech doesnt extend to inflammatory, divisive dogwhistling. Some statements are more an action of aggression than of persuasion or information. They can be called out for what they are.
There will be a variety of views among a forum like this but ethnic based ones will be a small minority. 
Trough snouting help yourself adventurism has been indulged in by all at times.
A rules based legal system can be hard to fully comprehend (for me at least) but will give us a good result if pursued early and forcefully.

----------


## Woody

Dunno about that assumption : going back to certain firearms related enquiry. Transperancy should also be a requirement.

----------


## Ruger7mm

Hi all
have received a reply from LINZ who confirm they are not the controlling authority or that the parcel of land on which the formed road sits is not in crown ownership,  and have suggested contacting the local council.

First reply, after which I asked if the land was owned by a SOE
Further to my email below our Crown Property team have advised that the land is not LINZ land. To determine the actual ownership is by you having a status report completed by an Accredited Supplier.  Please view the list of Accredited Suppliers on our website at https://www.linz.govt.nz/crown-prope...ited-suppliers

Thank you for your email.
Second reply, 

Unfortunately we are not able to confirm the ownership of the land. I note parcel 4574891 has a status of current and a parcel intent of "road". Roads are typically owned by local councils (except for State Highways, which typically owned by New Zealand Transport Agency), so you may wish to enquire directly with the local council to determine if they can confirm ownership.

Alternatively, you will need to contact an accredited supplier to conduct a status report, as per our prior response.

I think we now await the TDC response.
Cheers Ruger7mm

----------


## Dazzh

> Hi all
> have received a reply from LINZ who confirm they are not the controlling authority or that the parcel of land on which the formed road sits is not in crown ownership,  and have suggested contacting the local council.
> 
> First reply, after which I asked if the land was owned by a SOE
> Further to my email below our Crown Property team have advised that the land is not LINZ land. To determine the actual ownership is by you having a status report completed by an Accredited Supplier.  Please view the list of Accredited Suppliers on our website at https://www.linz.govt.nz/crown-prope...ited-suppliers
> 
> Thank you for your email.
> Second reply, 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have been contacted by council, I posted their email earlier this page. Will share any further communication coming from them.

----------


## chainsaw

> Dunno about that assumption : going back to certain firearms related enquiry. Transperancy should also be a requirement.


And honesty, full and complete disclosure. Qualities very much lacking at present

----------


## Shearer

> Yeah, I have been contacted by council, I posted their email earlier this page. Will share any further communication coming from them.


Amazing. Do I read this correctly.
TDC is saying it is clear that it is not theirs (probably because they don't receive any rates from it) but LINZ say it is a road and therefore is TDCs?

----------


## Dazzh

Yes, that is correct, but it isn't just that simple. We're hoping to get more clarification from a number of sources soon.

----------


## XR500

This has all the makings of every local and central Government agency having dropped the ball over the decades, as they have for a few other 'roads'.

What is clear is that is was taken by the Crown from the Tongariro National Park board and given to the (other) Crown NZED and formed into a road.

It can't magically then turn into Trust land without the relevant legal process occurring. If that legal process magically appears to have happened over the past year or so without Public notification, and whilst receiving more public largess (in the form of the Provincial Growth Fund) then I suggest we all know whats happened.

----------


## Shearer

And to add to that, where do WAMS get their information? Apparently they don't believe it's a road either?

----------


## omark

> Yeah, I have been contacted by council, I posted their email earlier this page. Will share any further communication coming from them.


Its council road reserve then

----------


## Woody

I wonder what Clements "road" is? -- and why it is maintained--; sarc.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> Got anything constructive to say about the topic? Or do you just want to voice your prejudice.


The sad part about it is there is probably an element of truth in what he is saying, especially with the current lot in charge.

----------


## Shearer

> I wonder what Clements "road" is? -- and why it is maintained--; sarc.


Maintained by DoC right from the lodge as it is all DoC land. Legal road up until there. :Grin:

----------


## Woody

Yes but what is it actually. 
It allows public vehicular access into the Kaimanawa Forest Park for many and varied users. 
Why not the four accesses off Desert road? 
Just saying.

----------


## tetawa

Bit like Waitaramoa Road into Pureora North Block, no one wants to own it when it requires work. DOC will come to the party for  a 1080 drop or other poison operation, logging companies if pines are being carted, otherwise ownership is denied by all including the 2 district councils.

----------


## Woody

There must be many examples throughout NZ. Access is not denied.
 Clements road was pioneered by a man of that name whose men cut and split red beech for posts and battens. I can recall when the gear and original huts were in place and the bridges were simple double planks with a big gap in the centre. The "road" is now an important public and tourist asset. (As is View road.)  They along with the desert road accesses are of economic benifit to the district and to NZ bringing in dollars including tourist dollars. These accesses should not be allowed to become private enterprise money pots for a few. They have been and should remain free to the publics use.

----------


## stumpys

As someone who has a great appreciation of freedom/liberty/access and the law, this will be a very interesting outcome that I will be following closely. 

However, it's not difficult to see why the local iwi are upset with the destruction of the whenua at the road end. A quick search of waipakahihi road 4x4 on YouTube shows vehicles travelling in the river, driving close to whio, dogs running free, chainsaw use and tree felling.

Sure I didn't see a "hunter" amongst them it does however reflect on all waipakahihi road users.

https://youtu.be/ZlVhJGtj1M0

@2min 30secs

----------


## imaca

> As someone who has a great appreciation of freedom/liberty/access and the law, this will be a very interesting outcome that I will be following closely. 
> 
> However, it's not difficult to see why the local iwi are upset with the destruction of the whenua at the road end. A quick search of waipakahihi road 4x4 on YouTube shows vehicles travelling in the river, driving close to whio, dogs running free, chainsaw use and tree felling.
> 
> Sure I didn't see a "hunter" amongst them it does however reflect on all waipakahihi road users.
> 
> https://youtu.be/ZlVhJGtj1M0
> 
> @2min 30secs


That maybe so @stumpys and had the gate had gone in 5 - 10 years ago, at the expense of the landowner, for the reason you state, I might be included to agree, but the timing of this tells us all we need to know

----------


## PillowDribbler

Im with Stumpy,the writing was on the wall it was getting pretty ugly.They still might let walking access.

----------


## Woody

The rule breaking looked to me to be within the park rather than on private land. A sign placed on the park boundary against taking vehicles across at the river as happens elsewhere should suffice.

----------


## stumpys

Absolutely, the "conflict of interest “ here between iwi and helisika stinks. Paying for a concession, Lock out the public and then day "we can fly you!" Is beyond reproach. I hope access remains and that people clean up their act, comprehend kaitiakitanga and respect the great asset that we should all have.

----------


## kickinwings

> Hi all
> have received a reply from LINZ who confirm they are not the controlling authority or that the parcel of land on which the formed road sits is not in crown ownership,  and have suggested contacting the local council.
> 
> First reply, after which I asked if the land was owned by a SOE
> Further to my email below our Crown Property team have advised that the land is not LINZ land. To determine the actual ownership is by you having a status report completed by an Accredited Supplier.  Please view the list of Accredited Suppliers on our website at https://www.linz.govt.nz/crown-prope...ited-suppliers
> 
> Thank you for your email.
> Second reply, 
> 
> ...


Bit late to this investigation but thought I'd post the relevant info for people to see. I'm a cadastral surveyor so have access to plans etc, have been involved in road taking and stopping by local government act in the past.

So a quick search of Waipakihi Road shows it is covered by two parcels, Part Rangipo North 7B Block and Part Rangipo North 7C Block. Both these parcels were created by survey SO 27023 1967 shown below....



The two parcels have a gazette reference to them - Gazette 1968 p1344 and p1362. The gazette is Government newspaper used for public notification/record to legalise processes and actions under various Acts and Regulations. Road taking or land taking is one of these processes. The two Gazette pages are shown below God Save The Queen!





As Ruger7mm has mentioned the parcels were taken for "the development of water power (Tongariro Power Scheme)

A more recent computed plan of the neighboring Maori land was completed in 2009 - ML 421774. These type of plans were an attempt to work out a more accurate area for blocks of Maori land all over the country. It also shows that the parcels covered by Wapakihi Rd are separate to and not included in the area of the neighboring Maori land. Plan below.....



It will be interesting what TDC say about who is in charge of the land as I suspect it will be them. There is some recent survey work being undertaken to the north on Rangipo Intake Rd by a surveyor which might be in a similar situation. Could be a good person to contact to provide more clarity.

----------


## Ruger7mm

Thanks Kickinwings, that helps clarify who doesn't have a legal interest in the road, and also the gazette notice that notes the land was National Park before the acquisition, meaning if the land was no longer needed for the purpose it was taken under the PWA it would be offered back to DOC in the first instance. I am looking forward to the response from TDC now, and whom probably do not wish to be responsible for a road in disrepair.

----------


## Woody

Bearing in mind that Genisis still reqykre these roads for monitoring and  maintainance of their assets so indicating a possible sharing of road maintainance.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> Absolutely, the "conflict of interest “ here between iwi and helisika stinks. Paying for a concession, Lock out the public and then day "we can fly you!" Is beyond reproach. I hope access remains and that people clean up their act, comprehend kaitiakitanga and respect the great asset that we should all have.


I hope people remember this before booking with a hunting trip with Helisika. I know there isn’t much competition but maybe consider walking in rather than supporting those pricks.

----------


## Ross Nolan

TDC initially said it was DOC land when asked via email, and when I checked with the DOC person responsible for boundaries and was told it absolutely wasn't.... TDC decided they would check and get back to us. As yet, nothing.

There is something going on in the background I am beginning to believe, and I would be very unsurprised to find that the "road" has been used as a bargaining chip in settlement negotiations. I would love to be proved wrong, and of course I realise that the Crown can pretty much do as it pleases, but it just isn't adding up.

Something else to think about is that everybody involved in the current talks -FMC, the Iwi, DOC, the settlement negotiators et al are aware of this thread. What I hope the parties who are in elected positions take time to think on is there is an enormous amount of feeling here for the continuation of this particular access point. DOC Turangi and FMC (singing from the same sheet, it appears- and I think there is another story tucked away in there) saying that there are other access points - seriously? I'd like to see someone get to the current road end in less than 8 hours carrying a pack. Essentially it would be a 3 day trip to go for a hunt where the old bridge used to be. 

I'm prepared to make this a vote deciding issue for me - in both local and national elections.

----------


## Shearer

> Bearing in mind that Genisis still reqykre these roads for monitoring and  maintainance of their assets so indicating a possible sharing of road maintainance.


Waipakahi road was formed to access a gravel pit required for the building of the power projects so as such may no longer be deemed as required by the power companies.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> Waipakahi road was formed to access a gravel pit required for the building of the power projects so as such may no longer be deemed as required by the power companies.


There is a river gauge at the bottom of the hill on the downstream side

----------


## Woody

Yep.

----------


## Friwi

What about contacting the local press and submitting an article about it?
Starting to make noiseand spreading  the noise.

----------


## Woody

CNI members have arranged a meet with TDC.

----------


## PillowDribbler

Desert Rd closed Thur/Fri 9 AM/6 PM.

----------


## Cigar

> The rule breaking looked to me to be within the park rather than on private land. A sign placed on the park boundary against taking vehicles across at the river as happens elsewhere should suffice.


One problem is the park boundary is on the far side of the river, so people have already driven across before they see the sign.

----------


## kickinwings

So "Woody" asked me to have a quick look at two other roads accessing the Kaimanawas from the Desert Rd and also asked me to post my findings. Tree Trunk Gorge Road and Rangipo Intake Rd. 

We use a website called grip.co.nz. It is a GIS website the at you pay a subscription. It is basically a user friendly version of our government cadastral system (called Landonline) and gives you access to survey plans and draft copies of titles etc as well as a NZ wide Aerial photo, it also shows ownership details and so on so is pretty handy (in my line of work anyway).  You can sign up for a free trail to check it out. 

My findings are below.

*Tree trunk Gorge Rd.* 

Goes through two separate parcels. Part Rangipo North 4B Block and Part Rangipo North 4C Block. 

The whole road was surveyed in 1981 on SO 33384-SO 33386 (attached) however it looks like this was never legalised through the gazetting process and so has remained in ownership/part of the original parcels. 

 Part Rangipo North 4B is the first section covering about the first 900m of the road.  

It was gazetted as National Park in 1953 

Gazette 1953 p1767 



The second half through  to the river is on Part Rangipo North 4C Block on Maori land (Title 494393). This is private land. 



*Rangipo Intake Rd* 

 Goes through Part Rangipo North No 6C Block  Maori Land 

Road was surveyed In 1971 by SO 28281 

The road has been separated from its original parcel however I hit a bit of a wall with trying to find more info on this lot. I suspect it will be in the old Deeds system which are physically held by LINZ and havent been entered online. You are able to get them to send a copy so Ill see if I can track down some more info.   

The parcels covering Rangipo Intake Road are split in two and there is a small section in the middle where the physical road isnt covered. There was a survey completed to fix this issue in 1974 but it appears that this was never gazetted and so never actually happened. There is a new recent easement survey (03/05/2022) showing that is being completed at the moment which might be the fix for Genisis for this issue. The gap in the road is shown below. The surveyor undertaking this survey is XXXXXXXX who seems to do a lot of work in this area (he has signed all the recent survey plans around the place). 

I have attached another more recent survey plan LT 454308 from 2018 that looks like Genisis have possibly attempted to buy the land covering Rangipo Intake Rd and the right bank of the dam. An LT plan is a survey plan that has been approved by LINZ (in regards to the survey work) but the legal process to complete it and make it legal hasnt been finished or has been abandoned. This seems to be a bit of a theme with the roads in this area so perhaps the land owners have been chopping and changing their minds or are tricky to deal with.  The newer easement plan I mentioned earlier is probably Genisis trying to secure access to the dam by easement (right of way) rather than buying the road parcels as separate lots.

So to me it looks as if Waipakihi Rd is the only one that actually got the road land "taken" (or removed from the original parcel) all be it for "Water Development" purposes.

Let me know if you need me to take a squiz at anything else.

Cheers

----------


## PillowDribbler

Thanks for the input on this.

----------


## Backcountry Bob

Time to buy an electric bike

----------


## Hunteast

An expensive toy to be flogged by the time you walk back to it. Same with vehicles parked near SH1 for a few days while in the bush. Happened to me way back on the Kaimanawa Rd carpark. Police found the culprits in Taupo - local scum who never worked aside from the drug trade.

----------


## Copelli

Do any of these attempted road closures affect vehicle access to the DOC tracks which lead up to Umakarikari or Urchin (i.e/ 'the Tops Loop')? 

Thanks

----------


## Mohawk .308

> Do any of these attempted road closures affect vehicle access to the DOC tracks which lead up to Umakarikari or Urchin (i.e/ 'the Tops Loop')? 
> 
> Thanks


 Kaimanawa Rd is ok it’s Rango intake and Waipakahi roads.

----------


## Cigar

From a 4WD facebook page...
"This has come in from the Outdoor Access Commission regarding Waipakihi and Rangipo access roads 
 Herenga ā Nuku Aotearoa — The Outdoor Access Commission has received a number of enquiries about the entitlement for public access to the Kaimanawa State Forest Park from the Desert Road and Turangi area.  Historically access for recreational pursuits like tramping, hunting, angling and four-wheel driving have used formed roadways like Waipakihi, Rangipo Intake.
These formed roadways originated from the creation of the Tongariro Power Scheme.  Waipakihi and Rangipo Intake roads were taken by the Crown in the 1960s under the Public Works Act for the development of the power scheme and held as Crown land.  Public access on the roadways (Crown land) has been accepted by the Crown during the time the land has been owned by the Crown.  This Crown land is now being returned to the original owners. 
The key is that these formed roads were never dedicated as legal roads.  Once the land that these formed roads traverse is returned to the original owners, the formed roads will be private roads on private land. 
Herenga ā Nuku Aotearoa will now work to assess the options for public access to the Kaimanawa State Forest Park.  Due to the level of interest in this access, the Commission’s Chief Executive has contacted FMC national office to engage on this matter"

----------


## PillowDribbler

Copy and paste for me as well.

----------


## Woody

SERIUOS QUESTION.
  It would be useful to us to have an estimate of total visitor numbers to the  access roads per year.
 Those of you who use these roads will have a few ideas on likely visitor numbrrs. These should include family picnicers, family campers, trampers, sightseers, fishers as well as hunters and assorted hangers-on. 
Please give it some careful thought. We need realistic figures and not stupid bs stories please.
Personally I think somewhere over 20,000 annually but you may have better info to base a figure on. 
Thanks in advance folks.

----------


## Dazzh

I have no input on visitor numbers, but I believe that yes it would be very handy to know.

----------


## Ruger7mm

So now the question is, will the current owner follow the PWA and offer back to the owner off whom the land was taken, which is DOC as the land appears to have been part of the adjoining National Park when it was taken for "Electricity development". I have put this question to Outdoor Access Commission and are awaiting their reply. To offer the land to anyone other than DOC in the first instance would be ignoring the requirements of the PWA, and if DOC have acquiesced and let it go then DOC is not fulfilling their own obligations under the Conservation Act, and some serious questions of them need asking.

----------


## Woody

That answer will be very interesting.

----------


## Dazzh

I think you are going to find guys, that Waipakihi road from the boundary of Tongariro National Park (where the gate now exists) was in fact taken from Maori owned land under the PWA, so will quite probably be returned to them. I would dearly love to see it remain as a public access for all to use, but the construction of the gate and the business partnership with Heli Sika would suggest there may be other plans.

----------


## Woody

We're working on "other plans".

----------


## Woody

Just to give a little more clarity folks. Information from sources indicate that of the four access roads from Desert rd to the park boundary; there will be two that will remain open. The open accesses are Kaimanawa road and Tree trunk gorge road. 
On the other hand the two which may be closed are Rangipo Intake and Waipakihi roads.
 Our Taupo small working group assisted by other forum members are steadily working towards meaningful cooperation wIth NZDA Natex and other branch execs and other significant players, obtaining facts and relevant considerations of parties involved.

----------


## Barry the hunter

I would personally like to thank all of you unsung heroes who are working hard behind the scenes to get some resolution from powers that be to resolve this if possible for the benefit of your fellow hunters. Good bastards all of you . To D.O.C  remember your public statements and policy - free and unrestricted access to all DOC estate

----------


## Sika stag

Question - 
Would it be an option for NZTA/DOC/Whoever to put a new access road in just slightly further south linking back to what left of the access road and National park?
Looking on the map it quite clearly shows that there is a section of Public owned land that crosses SH1 south of these accesses(Lost) and a new access road could be put in for park users linking to the existing tracks etc? 
Yes a bridge will be needed and a bulldozer etc... 

Just a thought... instead of fighting to regain access to lost access, just request a new access for majority of NZ's/public to still access?

----------


## Double tap

> I would personally like to thank all of you unsung heroes who are working hard behind the scenes to get some resolution from powers that be to resolve this if possible for the benefit of your fellow hunters. Good bastards all of you . To D.O.C  remember your public statements and policy - free and unrestricted access to all  DOC estate


free and unrestricted access to all DOC mismanaged estate

Fixed for ya

----------


## Tahr

> free and unrestricted access to all DOC mismanaged estate
> 
> Fixed for ya


Hardly helpful for the group from here who are talking to DOC.

----------


## HiTop

Hi All,

Kia ora koutou,



We have completed our research into the background and legal status of the land relevant to Rangipo Intake and Waipakihi Roads.  This information is now on our website and may be accessed through this link https://www.herengaanuku.govt.nz/abo...ipakihi-roads/



Nga mihi,



Ric





Ric Cullinane

​​​Tumuaki | Chief Executive
​​Aotearoa Outdoor Access Commission
​
​+64 48158509
​+64 274775042
​​herengaanuku.govt.nz

----------


## Cigar

> Question - 
> Would it be an option for NZTA/DOC/Whoever to put a new access road in just slightly further south linking back to what left of the access road and National park?
> Looking on the map it quite clearly shows that there is a section of Public owned land that crosses SH1 south of these accesses(Lost) and a new access road could be put in for park users linking to the existing tracks etc? 
> Yes a bridge will be needed and a bulldozer etc... 
> 
> Just a thought... instead of fighting to regain access to lost access, just request a new access for majority of NZ's/public to still access?


It would have to be a long road, there is a large block of private land south of the Waipakihi and north of the Waipahihi.

----------


## PillowDribbler

Just read that HiTop Good info,would you say that access is still available on these roads until sorted.

----------


## Woody

> Hi All,
> 
> Kia ora koutou,
> 
> 
> 
> We have completed our research into the background and legal status of the land relevant to Rangipo Intake and Waipakihi Roads.  This information is now on our website and may be accessed through this link https://www.herengaanuku.govt.nz/abo...ipakihi-roads/
> 
> 
> ...


An exellent post with a  very detailed link. Thankyou . Maps we have seen indicate the land owners as far back as 1891 were in The Crown.

----------


## Tahr

Good work being done here.
My view for what it is worth is that the truth is not always at the bottom of the well. Its easy to become distracted by the detail and lose focus on the goal. The goal being access for recreational users.

The deeper down the well you go the more entangled you will become in arguments over legal rights. Nice to have a legal argument in your back pocket if its a strong one, but far better to focus on a negotiated agreement based on the principles of fairness and reasonableness.

----------


## Micky Duck

and if B.W. is even half right in his number of animals "migrating " from public land onto private.......the private land owners should be very forthcoming with open access to public land to keep down the ravishing hoards or animals...

----------


## PillowDribbler

Its going to be busy in there with people going in for a look to see what all the fuss is about.

----------


## Steve123

> and if B.W. is even half right in his number of animals "migrating " from public land onto private.......the private land owners should be very forthcoming with open access to public land to keep down the ravishing hoards or animals...


Nice thought but can't see it happening

----------


## Woody

A meeting was help with TDC mayor and staff today. They have been brought up to speed as far as possible at this stage with further enquiries to be carried out. NZDA HQ are aware of the discussion and are also following lines of enquiry. Affected parties not only include us or hunters per se, but trampers, Genisis energy, and many other user groups access to this portion of Kaimanawa Forest Park. TDC is now fully aware of this wide band of interest.

----------


## Bagheera

"We understand the Waipakihi accessway land is going through a process to transfer the Crown land back to the former *or adjacent landowners*."

It's noteworthy that the Herenga a nuku statement doesn't name those who it is proposed might acquire the ownership.

I wonder what stage this process has reached.  That web site doesn't say.

One of the adjacent landowners is the Tongariro National Park and public good and the goals of Herenga a nuku would be best served by transferring it to the park. ("Our purpose is to provide New Zealanders with free, certain, enduring and practical access to the outdoors."
https://www.herengaanuku.govt.nz/abo...spe-2022-2023/  accessed 2022 08 12)

    @HiTop are you in a position to discuss this online ?

----------


## HiTop

Not my circus sorry. I'd let the processes of local government, the crown and the adjacent land owners sort it all out. The interest shown has signalled the need for a well negotiated outcome and it really is up to the parties to come to an agreement.

----------


## XR500

But local Government knew nothing about it, hence the desire by central North island forum members to go to the Taupo District Council and get as much sunlight on the issue as quickly as possible.

The parcel of land the tar seal strip (known colloquially as Waipakahi road as its not a 'road' in the legal sense) is still vested in the Crown, so the Maori Trust theoretically do not have legal ability to place bollards and a gate on Crown land.

DoC appear to have been singularly hopeless in doing anything to foster continued access to the Public Conservation Estate.

The Walking Access Commission on the other hand appear to be sticking to their stated principles and doing their best to maintain enduring public access.

----------


## Bagheera

> Not my circus sorry. I'd let the processes of local government, the crown and the adjacent land owners sort it all out. The interest shown has signalled the need for a well negotiated outcome and it really is up to the parties to come to an agreement.


Thanks @HiTop.
So the Aotearoa outdoor access commission / herenagaanuku is not going to take action to meet its statement of performance expectations 2022-2023 ?

----------


## Micky Duck

the more parties with SOME clout that come along and chip in to help keep access open the better,one would think.....

----------


## Woody

Hopefully they will agree to work closely together. The outcome will have effects elsewhere in NZ in the future.

----------


## HiTop

> Thanks @HiTop.
> So the Aotearoa outdoor access commission / herenagaanuku is not going to take action to meet its statement of performance expectations 2022-2023 ?


It would appear the commission has already responded to the concerns and has spent considerable time investigating. Resolution is a different matter and I think there will need to be further discussions between the parties before anything can be progressed. Clearly there are issues of clarification of who actually has title and what that title ensures or if that title will actually be given up in a restoration process. How much the public's interest will be considered I cannot guess. I look forward to seeing a resolution and if the road is illegally blocked then the blockages must be removed prior to any further discussion. Enduring public access is most certainly what everyone appears to be looking for and I sincerely hope that can be retained but I think we all need to be aware there may be a dispute over the ownership of the land the road sits on due to it being taken under the Public Works Act. Hopefully something will get sorted quickly and everyone can come to agreement and you can all get back to enjoying the place soon.

----------


## Micky Duck

SO.....if it was taken under the public works act.......... keep it under the same.....it has been requisitioned (correct term I believe) for the purpose of a road that is the best interests of the greater public to access public land.....maybe???? or charge current going rate to MAKE the road where it is as it stands to the person or persons who want the land back...its an improvement so therefore should be paid for....... couple of thousand bucks per meter was cost of Auckland footpath I believe....a raod out in middle of nowhere also has transporting heavy machinery to get it there in first place to take into account.

----------


## Ranger 888

> But local Government knew nothing about it, hence the desire by central North island forum members to go to the Taupo District Council and get as much sunlight on the issue as quickly as possible.
> 
> The parcel of land the tar seal strip (known colloquially as Waipakahi road as its not a 'road' in the legal sense) is still vested in the Crown, so the Maori Trust theoretically do not have legal ability to place bollards and a gate on Crown land.
> 
> DoC appear to have been singularly hopeless in doing anything to foster continued access to the Public Conservation Estate.
> 
> The Walking Access Commission on the other hand appear to be sticking to their stated principles and doing their best to maintain enduring public access.


In view of the strong possibility that the DoC estate will be handed to tangata whenua (Te Urewera), or at least co-managed with tangata whenua, DoC will keep their head below the parapet. This has been the experience in several scenarios in Auckland recently, including tangata whenua being handed control of kauri dieback disease.

----------


## Reindeer

If, and only if it is given back to tangata whenua it will be Ngati Tuwharetoa and administered by the Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust.
Not Te Urewera


Sent from my SM-G990E using Tapatalk

----------


## BSA

Article in Stuff this morning on the Kaimanawa Access issue. I'd say if they have gone public with this article closure is imminent but my opinion only.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...near-desert-rd

----------


## Ranger 888

> If, and only if it is given back to tangata whenua it will be Ngati Tuwharetoa and administered by the Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust.
> Not Te Urewera
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G990E using Tapatalk


I used Te Urewera as an example of DoC managed land being handed to tangata whenua, in that case, Tuhoe.

----------


## Happy Jack

Yep it appears it might be closed to allow for a private enterprise with Helisika according to the Stuff article this morning

----------


## Lauries Hut

One solution is to boycott Helisika. 
I suspect the vast majority of their business comes from kiwi hunters. They’re obviously branching out into mountain biking. Stop flying with them until they open up the road.

----------


## Barry the hunter

there is one statement there in that stuff article provided by BSA from DOC that makes my blood boil  "the Department is not obliged to seek access across private land " DOC if you read this that is a bloody gutless cop out -no other word for it -

----------


## Mohawk .308

> One solution is to boycott Helisika. 
> I suspect the vast majority of their business comes from kiwi hunters. They’re obviously branching out into mountain biking. Stop flying with them until they open up the road.


Yep and let them know too.

----------


## Steve123

It still gets me how National Parks which are public land are increasingly referred to DOC Estate land. DOC doesn't own it.

----------


## XR500

> there is one statement there in that stuff article provided by BSA from DOC that makes my blood boil  "the Department is not obliged to seek access across private land " DOC if you read this that is a bloody gutless cop out -no other word for it -


The first 1 km of that land parcel commonly known as Waipakahi rd is indeed in the Tongariro National Park. That's why the bollards and gate are 1 km in off the state highway. All private businesses that conduct money making activities on or through the Public Estate managed my DoC are required to obtain a concession from DoC.

Well there you go. There is a point of leverage if ever I have seen one: Manage public access along what is commonly known as Waipakahi road, or you don't obtain a concession to drive through the Tongariro National Park to run your private money making business. You'll have to fly clients and staff in and out of your base in there.  

But in this day and age....yeah nah

----------


## BSA

> It still gets me how National Parks which are public land are increasingly referred to DOC Estate land. DOC doesn't own it.


I refuse to use the terms DOC or Doc Estate. Call it what it is Public Land(s)

----------


## Siteline

> Article in Stuff this morning on the Kaimanawa Access issue. I'd say if they have gone public with this article closure is imminent but my opinion only.
> 
> 
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...near-desert-rd


Hi BSA
I saw the piece this morning but found it had been removed by this afternoon!!!!!

----------


## Cigar

> Hi BSA
> I saw the piece this morning but found it had been removed by this afternoon!!!!!


Article is still there for me

----------


## Mohawk .308

Same here

----------


## Tahr

It seemed like a balanced article.The MSM are ok when they are saying what _you_ want.  :Have A Nice Day:  

The overt racism on here and other places was noted.

----------


## Woody

@Tahr; I just took time to re-read this entire thread and I did not find any overt racism in it. The thread is in general very constructive and includes repeated acknowledgement appreciating the concerns of the Rotoaira IWI.

----------


## Tahr

> @Tahr; I just took time to re-read this entire thread and I did not find any overt racism in it. The thread is in general very constructive and includes repeated acknowledgement appreciating the concerns of the Rotoaira IWI.


You are correct. I had in my mind the thread about the DOC wild animal management job.

----------


## Woody

Thought that may have been the case.

----------


## Cigar

> @Tahr; I just took time to re-read this entire thread and I did not find any overt racism in it. The thread is in general very constructive and includes repeated acknowledgement appreciating the concerns of the Rotoaira IWI.


There is a bit on some of the Facebook posts.

----------


## Woody

We're not farcebook here though ay.

----------


## Ross Nolan

I read the article on stuff, and the one in the Sunday Star times, and note that they are different - and the Star Times paper version appears to say that the land parcel the road is on was given away in the 70's - contradicting what they also had said regarding ownership, but I guess editing or something.

What does interest me is the role of the Federated Mountain Clubs in all of this. Early on  reached out to their local rep and received an answer essentially saying we aren't looking to upset the adjacent land owners. She has asked me to keep the details of the email private, but the tone of the correspondence was not at all what I would have expected from a group who have among their stated aims (taken from their website)
_all New Zealanders should have free and enabling access to all public land.
FMC will promote the connectivity of public land 
where land under non-public tenure, including Crown pastoral lease, separates public land from public access then, following consultation, provision should be made for practical and enduring public access to the public land._ 

Elsewhere they claim to keep an eye on DOC and the Government, and I take this quote directly from their Vice Presidents online bio - it seems especially apt here
_This work has taught me that our conservation estate is managed by often-unaccountable officials,
behind closed doors and sometimes without, necessarily, recourse to the relevant policies or laws._

Finally, while I wonder if it is possible to separate the self appointed guardians of the conservation estate (Public lands, that is - owned by all New Zealanders) from being too intertwined with DOC, and thus concerned with their income as it is a small country, and there is always going to be the same people involved (I know that many DOC staff are there because they really do care).
I am struck by the VERY conciliatory attitude of the Rotorua rep, and note from her FMC bio that her day job is contracting to the Backcountry Trust - a group who do excellent work that should be applauded by all users of the land we all value and love. Digging a tiny bit into the backcountry Trust website give this regarding funding - 
Sponsors
_We are primarily funded by DOC_, but are also supported by a select band of like-minded corporate sponsors to whom we are very grateful. (Italics mine)

I am in an industry that is pretty much entirely to do with government funding one way or another - water and waste water. As a result I have to moderate my public utterances  on various subjects - Three  Waters, for example, for I know that it could have a direct effect on my ability to win projects, pay my staff and buy my groceries. 

I wonder if this applies to other fields as well? I wonder how other folks manage the conflict between their desire to do good and their need to not offend their paymaster? 

What we have here is a fairly simple matter -at it's heart is that the land, while not a road, absolutely is Crown owned. The question is, who is going to control it? As we have all seen, ownership is not as important as the ability to control what happens, and I would be very disappointed to see the loss of access that the Waipakahi road allows being lost to satisfy a group with their own commercial gain at the centre of their concerns. 

Helisika - I'm done with you.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> and if B.W. is even half right in his number of animals "migrating " from public land onto private.......the private land owners should be very forthcoming with open access to public land to keep down the ravishing hoards or animals...


Not a chance - I'd be willing to bet good money that Helisika will be doing flyin trips to the new Rangipo blocks, and too many deer wouldn't be an issue.

----------


## 7mmwsm

I am no Helisika fan for my own reasons.
But, has anyone discussed this with them?
I was speaking with one of their pilots a couple of weeks ago and his comments were that there were plenty of keyboard experts, but none had got their information from Helisika.

----------


## Ross Nolan

I contacted Helisika right at the beginning.

This was from them
Hi Ross

The new venture at Waipakihi road is between Kaimanawa Lands Trust and Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust who are the land owners for Rangipo North 7C.
 It is the Lake Rotoaira Trust who are assembling the gate, i will check in with their trustees and clear up the matter. 

Kind Regards

Helisika Team
Helisika Limited
07 3842816
info@helisika.co.nz
www.helisika.co.nz


Followed by this
Hi Ross

 I have been in contact with the head trustee for the Lake Rotoaira Trust. He has assured me in his words 'The road is on Rangipo North 7C which is “owned” by LRFT and we are within our legal right to protect our lands/assets'

Hope that clears things up for you.

Helisika Team
Helisika Limited
07 3842816
info@helisika.co.nz
www.helisika.co.nz


Which is absolutely incorrect. The land is owned by the Crown, and the Maori Land Court answered this point.

Does this make you any happier? I hope they care more for their machines than they do for the truth.

----------


## Shearer

> What we have here is a fairly simple matter -at it's heart is that the land, while not a road, absolutely is Crown owned. The question is, who is going to control it? As we have all seen, ownership is not as important as the ability to control what happens, and I would be very disappointed to see the loss of access that the Waipakahi road allows being lost to satisfy a group with their own commercial gain at the centre of their concerns. 
> 
> Helisika - I'm done with you.


You have hit the nail on the head here. I believe that this is the absolute heart of the matter and for the sake of continued public access (and to set a president) it is imperative that NZ sees this for what it is and does not sidestep the greater good for the commercial gain of a few.

----------


## Reindeer

> You have hit the nail on the head here. I believe that this is the absolute heart of the matter and for the sake of continued public access (and to set a president) it is imperative that NZ sees this for what it is and does not sidestep the greater good for the commercial gain of a few.


Completely agree with both of these statements.
The erosion of public access for the pecuniary gain of private individuals shouldn't be tolerated.
There seems to be a bit of smoke and mirrors at play around ownership of lands and Gaslighting around rubbish being dumped.
I am a little worried that miss Dimozantos is playing both sides too.

----------


## erniec

Comments elsewhere ring true trampers saying it isn't public land if you do not have access to it.
Public access isn't having to pay for a helicopter flight.  
The Kaimanawas need more access.
By all means stop the fuckwits driving all the way in 4wds,have a good roads and a safe carparks.
Surely that is not too much to ask.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> Comments elsewhere ring true trampers saying it isn't public land if you do not have access to it.
> Public access isn't having to pay for a helicopter flight.  
> The Kaimanawas need more access.
> By all means stop the fuckwits driving all the way in 4wds,have a good roads and a safe carparks.
> Surely that is not too much to ask.


Agree 100% about the need for access

One of my favourite memories of my daughters childhood was one of our walks into the base of Thunderbolt - mid summer when the river levels were safe for an 11 year old, and swimming in the pools on the way back to the car after a night under canvas and a quick look at the flats for a deer at dawn.

There is no way we could have walked over Urchin or through the Southern Access - regardless how easy accepting that as the New Normal (TM) would make life for DOC Turangi.

----------


## Bagheera

> . 
> 
> What does interest me is the role of the Federated Mountain Clubs in all of this. Early on  reached out to their local rep and received an answer essentially saying we aren't looking to upset the adjacent land owners. She has asked me to keep the details of the email private, but the tone of the correspondence was not at all what I would have expected from a group who have among their stated aims (taken from their website)
> _all New Zealanders should have free and enabling access to all public land.
> FMC will promote the connectivity of public land 
> where land under non-public tenure, including Crown pastoral lease, separates public land from public access then, following consultation, provision should be made for practical and enduring public access to the public land._ 
> 
> Elsewhere they claim to keep an eye on DOC and the Government, and I take this quote directly from their Vice Presidents online bio - it seems especially apt here
> _This work has taught me that our conservation estate is managed by often-unaccountable officials,
> ...


It appears the same with the aotearoa outdoor access commission who have a noble sounding title and yet say they have done extensive research but after that have declined to take any action despite it being in their statement of performance expectations to do so.

There is a piece of the jigsaw missing and its not that the Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust actually does own the land.

----------


## Bagheera

Apologies for the very long quote. I meant to trim it down a bit more.

----------


## Ross Nolan

I think the bottom line is that Government wants to give the piece of land to the trust. 
Nothing else would explain every party that receives funds from the Govt singing the exact same song.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> It appears the same with the aotearoa outdoor access commission who have a noble sounding title and yet say they have done extensive research but after that have declined to take any action despite it being in their statement of performance expectations to do so.
> 
> There is a piece of the jigsaw missing and its not that the Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust actually does own the land.


My suspicion is that during the current treaty settlement negotiations the Iwi were told that they would be given title to the land the "road" is on, and someone decided that today, tomorrow, whatever - let's build the gate now. The Crown won't prosecute anyone for being a little early - it was just an excess of enthusiasm.

LINZ, the Maori Land Court, everybody agrees on this though - right now, today, the land is owned by the Crown, and the trust have no right to build the gates. 

Will anything be done about it? Contact your MP and ask. That is the ONLY thing Government cares about - things that put their next election in jeopardy.

----------


## Woody

Caught with their  p.s. pants down makes the stink even  worse.

----------


## Shearer

What winds me up is the fact that the trust/Helisika got over half a million dollars of public money (through the PGF) to block access to the public. We have paid for the privilege of being locked out!

----------


## imaca

> What winds me up is the fact that the trust/Helisika got over half a million dollars of public money (through the PGF) to block access to the public. We have paid for the privilege of being locked out!


Its fucking insane isn't it?

----------


## Woody

Communication has been regularly maintained with NZDA execs and continues. They advise to check out  "new" on their website in the meantime.

----------


## PillowDribbler

Waipakihi Rd picture from weekend bolted open.Not mine.

----------


## Woody

The subject will be on the upcoming NZDA Board meeting.

----------


## Woody

The subject will be on the upcoming NZDA Board meeting agenda.

----------


## omark

> The subject will be on the upcoming NZDA Board meeting agenda.


It’s clearly not a done deal otherwise the gate would be locked. Knowing how quickly government doesn’t work (including LINZ) hopefully it’s dragged out until late next year when Louise Upston becomes a cabinet minister!!

Has anyone had feedback from her?

----------


## Woody

She has the info from several people but nothing substantial has come back as far as I know.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> It’s clearly not a done deal otherwise the gate would be locked. Knowing how quickly government doesn’t work (including LINZ) hopefully it’s dragged out until late next year when Louise Upston becomes a cabinet minister!!
> 
> Has anyone had feedback from her?


Her electorate secretary says she is 'working behind the scenes", and to give it time.

Which may or may not be the case, time will tell. I do know that this thread is on a handful of radars, and keeping it current is important.

It is very handy that it hasn't slipped into a bash fest on the trust - like everyone they are free to make their decisions, and to live with the consequences  (good or otherwise) of those decisions.

----------


## Ranger 888

I recall driving into the lower Waipakihi back in the early 1970s for a 3 day hunt..there was a gate (open) on an access bridge, but no sign. Three days later, when we started to drive out, the gate was locked. Luckily, I carried a hacksaw.

----------


## Maxx



----------


## imaca

Haven't we already identified that the access roads are public land and therefore we are all owners?

----------


## Cigar

> Haven't we already identified that the access roads are public land and therefore we are all owners?


Yeah but we aren't owners of the Rangipo North blocks on either side - and apparently they will soon be the owners of the land the road is on too. But it's good to see the future owners are discussing the issue, hopefully things come to an agreement that makes everyone happy (except the dickheads who have been dumping rubbish etc)

----------


## erniec

> Attachment 204021


You beat me too it.
Perhaps these discussions should have happened earlier.
Consultation with all users too in the public domain as well.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> Yeah but we aren't owners of the Rangipo North blocks on either side - and apparently they will soon be the owners of the land the road is on too. But it's good to see the future owners are discussing the issue, hopefully things come to an agreement that makes everyone happy (except the dickheads who have been dumping rubbish etc)


They’ve already put the gates up, I wouldn’t be holding my breath.

----------


## Woody

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/...3m-in-one-year

Genesis profit $231 million.

----------


## ROKTOY

> https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/...3m-in-one-year
> 
> Genesis profit $231 million.


Net profit $221.9m vs $33.5m previous year. That's vulgar.

----------


## Woody

They should be good for a few bob to look after those three roads.

----------


## stumpys

And here is the commercial venture website

Kaimanawa Alpine Adventures – Just another WordPress site

----------


## hotsoup

This explains a lot. Always wondered why there was a digger in the tops for so long

Hopefully high res enough

----------


## Ned

That'll make for a nice interlude if you're getting a bit fed up with the peace and quiet on the Tongariro Crossing  :Have A Nice Day: 
I can't wait to never spend any money with this venture.

----------


## Reindeer

The project seeking PGF funding is a construction project being undertaken by Kaimanawa 3B2A and 3B2B Ahu Whenua Trust in partnership with Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust to enable the two respective Trusts to operate a tourism venture. Kaimanawa 3B2A and 3B2B Ahu Whenua Trust was established to administer two Māori freehold land blocks (Kaimanawa 3B2A and Kaimanawa 3B2B), the land where the proposed tourism development is to take place. Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust administers Rangipo North 7C which is a freehold land block adjacent to SH1 (the Desert Road). The project is to construct a mountain bike and walking track that *can only be accessed via helicopter* (heli-biking and heli-hiking). PGF support is also required to construct associated infrastructure required to operate a venture of this kind. Following the completion of this project, Kaimanawa 3B2A and 3B2B Trust and Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust will operate the venture under the name Kaimanawa Alpine Adventures. The operation of Kaimanawa Alpine Adventures will be contracted to Helisika Ltd, an experienced third party that has extensive knowledge of the local tourism sector. 

So if they dont intend on using Waipakahi road at all for access, why the fk close it!!

The more information I have found about his the more the parties that claimed they had no idea were in fact "Balls Deep" in this. Taupō District Council were well aware and supported it. Same to Bike Taupō (council), destination Taupo and Enterprise Taupō.

----------


## Woody

Taupo Mayor Trewavas claimed he knew nothing of it and that there had been nil consultation as at last month (July).
 So where is your info from ?

----------


## Swamped

I don't know if this has already been shared. I assume its the same venture but 2020 dated??

https://www.mbie.govt.nz/dmsdocument...ine-adventures

Makes mention of the specific supporters and who is responsible for which tasks in the relationship eg mtb track construction

----------


## Reindeer

> I don't know if this has already been shared. I assume its the same venture but 2020 dated??
> 
> https://www.mbie.govt.nz/dmsdocument...ine-adventures
> 
> Makes mention of the specific supporters and who is responsible for which tasks in the relationship eg mtb track construction


Yes that is the document I was looking at. 13 Pages, unfortunately some is redacted.
I wonder if an OIA on this is worthwhile??

----------


## Mohawk .308

> Taupo Mayor Trewavas claimed he knew nothing of it and that there had been nil consultation as at last month (July).
>  So where is your info from ?


Yeah I’d like to know about these claims to, especially with council elections coming up soon.

----------


## erniec

This appears to have gone quiet has anybody had updates?.

----------


## Woody

Been taken up by NZDA and related groups. Ask them.

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## chainsaw

Very quiet , usually not a good sign. Status really needs to be clear & visible, together with the position of local councillors before the LB elections

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## 25/08 IMP

Had Cam Speedy at our NZDA meeting the other night he was adamant that the road was Maori land.

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

----------


## Cigar

Gates were open two weeks ago.
I'm guessing the land hadn't been transferred to private ownership yet.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> Had Cam Speedy at our NZDA meeting the other night he was adamant that the road was Maori land.
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


Cam Speedy is wrong. I have an email from the Maori Land Court that very clearly states the land belongs to the Crown.
People can believe what they want, but the facts are the facts.

----------


## 25/08 IMP

> Cam Speedy is wrong. I have an email from the Maori Land Court that very clearly states the land belongs to the Crown.
> People can believe what they want, but the facts are the facts.


Awesome that's good to hear 

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

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## Ranger 888

> Cam Speedy is wrong. I have an email from the Maori Land Court that very clearly states the land belongs to the Crown.
> People can believe what they want, but the facts are the facts.


How long ago was the email written, Ross Nolan?

----------


## XR500

About page 26 of this discussion.

So quite recently.

----------


## 7mmwsm

> Cam Speedy is wrong. I have an email from the Maori Land Court that very clearly states the land belongs to the Crown.
> People can believe what they want, but the facts are the facts.


Hopefully the facts don't get altered to suit one side or the other.
Like our court system has been known to do.

----------


## XR500

If you go onto woke websites like Wikipedia or our own Govt websites you will see our history is being quietly rewritten as we speak...

----------


## Ross Nolan

> How long ago was the email written, Ross Nolan?



As to ownership of the road that goes over this easement, technically it belongs to the Crown (local government) since this easement is owned by the Crown and what is on it belongs to the Crown.

Excerpt from email dated 1/8/2022

Recent and/or clear enough?

----------


## Cigar

The info we have seen says the roads and the land they are on is owned by the Crown, but ownership is planned to be transferred to the adjacent landowners.
The day that happens I expect the gates will be closed and locked, unless the groups involved in discussions with the future owners can negotiate some form of access agreement.

----------


## chainsaw

Any update on these public roads and access?

----------


## kawekakid

Another gate gone in 2 km down Waipakahi road

----------


## imaca

So "they" are forging ahead regardless of any access challenges then.

----------


## erniec

www.kaa.co.nz have a look.

Sent from my SM-A226B using Tapatalk

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## stumpys

Let's not forget they are offering this too from "their" Waipakahihi base

Hunting – Kaimanawa Alpine Adventures

----------


## Mohawk .308

Anyone that uses heli sika to fly in, don’t bitch about having your access to the Kaimanawa’s cut.
Vote with your feet fullas, don’t support these wankers.

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## Snow4wd

I have read much inaccurate information regarding the roads to access the Kaimanawa Forest Park from the Dessert Road.
Firstly each road must be treated as a different entity as each road was made via different mechanisms to do with the Tongariro Power Scheme phases 3 and 4
Secondly I am only referring to Waipakihi Road.

Waipakihi Road was Gazetted in 1974. When a road is Gazetted, there is a process in Central Government,  the survery, ownership, fell thru various agencies over the years from NZED to Lands and Survey and finally to Taupo District Council.

The Road now is in Private hands.

Rotoaira Forest Trust. Who also now own the land either side of Waipakihi Road.

Those of you who have a version 6 or earlier of TUMONZ with property owner module will be able to see who the previous land owners were.
A trust that went belly up some 3 years plus ago.

Waipakihi Road is the southern most road under Taupo District Councils area. The council does not use the same contractors for road maintenance as NZTA does for the Desert Road.  Thus Taupo Council has been "Forgetting" about the maintenance on the road. 
NB there is a back history of Taupo District Counci renegging on agreements to do with this road. Eg the Alternative Scenic Road Taupo District Council agreed to complete in 1975 when the Power Project was completed. The Ministry of Works made a well made gravel road linking the 4 roads from Waipakihi to Rangipo Power Station Road to keep the heavy earthmoving equipment off SH1. The Agreement was that Taupo District Council was to upgrade the Gravel Road to a Class1 road with many Campsites (DoCs commitment) along it, with the added feature of it being an alternative to the Sisters if a crash occurred.
When the Project Finished, Taupo Council removed the culverts on the Gravel Road and renegged on the Agreement. Interestingly they also never returned the Terrain or Flora to prior State. Hence the scars visable from Satellite Mapping.
So Taupo District Council, keen to remove a badly deterriated road from thier books, did a back room deal with Rotoaira Forest Trust, DoC, and Heli Sika.
There is also an implication of how the Reciever of the Bankrupt Previous Trust transfered the property into Rotoaira Forest Trusts ownership.
There is no documentation of this transfer.

Back to the Gazetted Road of Waipakihi Road. 
There is no paper trail of removal of the Waipakahi Road from the New Zealand Gazette. But Council and NZ Outdoor Access Commission say it is not a Gazetted Road, even though they cannot say how it has been removed from the gazette.
Land Information NZ (LINZ) say Waipakihi Road is still a "Surveryed Centerlined Gazetted Public Road" Still in ownership of the Crown. But they could not answer how the Council and Outdoor Access Commission think it is Private Land.

So Fact, LINZ and the NZ Gazette STILL have Waipakihi Road as a Crown Owner PUBLIC Road as far as the Old DoC Campsight upstream of what we all call the Washed Out Road/ Washed Out Culvert/ River Ford. From the Campsite on the South Bank to 300m beyond the joining of the Waikato Stream is designated as a Gravel Pit. Crown Owned.

Heli Sika and Rotoaira Forest Trust have a deal with DoC to fly Mountain Bikers who can afford it to the Upper Waipakihi Valley (Waipakihi Hut and/or Pinnicles) so the Cyclists can bike down to the new ShedBOSS building on Waipakihi Road. Interestingly Taupo District Council Approved and signed off on this building. In and area that actually needs a Resource Consent.

Taupo District Council DO run scared of the Lake Rotoira Forest Trust. As do many other organisations in the region who must deal with them. Including DoC and RAL.

There has been a full complaint submitted to the NZ Ombudsman regarding these Back-Room-Deals, and transfers without the correct process by Taupo District Council. There are another 8 Complaints being Investigated by the Ombudsman over other Back-Room-Deals Taupo District Council have made in "Closed Workshops"

Tree Trunk Gorge Road, Rangipo Dam Road, and Poutu Dam/Rangipo Powerstation Road have different Status as Roads, and as such are not included in my brief.

Taupo District Council have continually dodged the question, with time honoured techniques of distration, when did the process to remove Waipakihi Road from the NZ Gazette Occur. AND what was the process?

It is dificult to remove a Gazetted Road and transfer into Private Property. Plus via Treaty of Waitangi or Public Works Land Confiscation Act the process is longer and bigger.
Either Way there MUST be public consultaion of intent to remove a Gazetted Road from the NZGazette.
Non on record.

Final Footnote, NZ Access Commision is a Crown Entity the Crown uses to "advertise to the public" and to "Officially Notify". Also the Comission says they are a "Lobby Group" to gaurantee access to the outdoors for all NZers, however in practice the Government uses the Comission as a way of "we asked the public" for Parliamentary Select Committee Submissions and Feedback IN FAVOUR of what the Government is Trying to Pass as Law.

----------


## Snow4wd

Ross read my Article and deep research.
Anton, Matt's mate.

----------


## Ranger 888

I have learnt from a personal experience that deals aligned to Treaty decisions do NOT require public consultation. Welcome to our future.

----------


## erniec

Heli Sika will have made a commercial decision.
I do not imagine they have "ownership" of the road.
They may have helped it happen.

----------


## Ranger 888

And no, that's not a racist comment, but an observation based on reality.

----------


## Woody

@Snow4wd
 Thankyou for that very commendable work. I am sure many of us look forward to the Ombudsman findings. 
 However; my past dealings with Ombudsman indicate that office has no poers of correction but only to make recommendation to the appropriate Minister of the Crown. A usual prior requirement is that such Minister must have been approached prior to Ombudsman creating an investigation. Perhaps in this case it may be the Minister for Local government?  
 Three forum members approached Taupo Council about this matter and the Mayor Trewavas denied any knowledge of the issue and stated to me that he was unaware of any public consultation having takeb place. At a meeting we attended on the subject the legal advisors to TDC brought no light to the matter either. 
 NzDA chief and deputy execs were fully informed by us at that time. The only other update I am aware of was a proposed closed meeting within the Rotoaira forest trust for 12th Sept but I do not know what disussions actually took place; nor any outcomes since.
  Please keep us updated if you can. 
Kind regards--

----------


## Ned

> @Snow4wd
>  Thankyou for that very commendable work. I am sure many of us look forward to the Ombudsman findings. 
>  However; my past dealings with Ombudsman indicate that office has no poers of correction but only to make recommendation to the appropriate Minister of the Crown. A usual prior requirement is that such Minister must have been approached prior to Ombudsman creating an investigation. Perhaps in this case it may be the Minister for Local government?  
>  Three forum members approached Taupo Council about this matter and the Mayor Trewavas denied any knowledge of the issue and stated to me that he was unaware of any public consultation having takeb place. At a meeting we attended on the subject the legal advisors to TDC brought no light to the matter either. 
>  NzDA chief and deputy execs were fully informed by us at that time. The only other update I am aware of was a proposed closed meeting within the Rotoaira forest trust for 12th Sept but I do not know what disussions actually took place; nor any outcomes since.
>   Please keep us updated if you can. 
> Kind regards--


Sounds like the Taupo mayor was correct then that there were no 'public consultations having taken place'.
Rather, closed to public consultations may have taken place?

An issue that has recently been highlighted by the ombudsman regarding local government and democracy.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...ncil-workshops

Then again, here's an article from 2 years ago about the ombudsman looking into public excluded council workshops.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-sta...ssion-welcomed

----------


## Woody

In fact at the meeting we held with TDC Mayor and CEO REP and their legal advisor, that legal advisor specifically stated to us that TDC did not own Waipakihi road. I have now suggested to NZDA CEO to read the recent inputs in our forum on the matter.

----------


## Hunteast

I would not be voting for re election of the Taupo Mayor - he's full of sh.t.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> I would not be voting for re election of the Taupo Mayor - he's full of sh.t.


He didn’t get my vote this time

----------


## kawekakid

Taupo Mayor has no say .hes not aloud to make decissions ,he has to ring other parties first

----------


## Shootm

> Kaimanawa Alpine Adventures – Heli-Biking, Mountain Scenic Flights, Glamping have a look.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A226B using Tapatalk


Interesting. 
If you have hunted the valley you might know where the Glamping spot on their site is. Looks very much like Jap Flats.
Possibly going to push a cycle track up the true left of the river looking at their site.

----------


## kawekakid

https://www.mbie.govt.nz/dmsdocument...ine-adventures

----------


## Mohawk .308

So according to that document the Taupo council knew all about it.
Looks like the Mayor is full of shit.

Letters of support have been provided from all of the following: • Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust
• The Chairman of Kaimanawa 3B2A and 3B2B Ahu
N/A 12345
       I
       Whenua Trust
• Taupo District Council
• Enterprise Great Lake
• Destination Great Lake Taupo • Bike Taupo
N/A 12345
I

----------


## Lauries Hut

Im a mountain biker and hunter. Probably a better or more accomplished mountain biker. But hunting is my first love.
Ridden the Heaphy, Old Ghost Rd, a bunch of minor West Coast tracks, Nelson & Lakes, Motatapu and a shit load of North Island tracks & races.

Have to be honest, it looks awesome, Ill be lining up to do this. Its private land/property and good on them for finding a way to make a dollar from it. 

Of course the great shame should it eventuate, would be the denial of access for us as hunters into the doc estate, which is there for all.
And from what Ive read in previous comments, there seems to be little sound reason for blocking it now..

----------


## Mohawk .308

> I’m a mountain biker and hunter. Probably a better or more accomplished mountain biker. But hunting is my first love.
> Ridden the Heaphy, Old Ghost Rd, a bunch of minor West Coast tracks, Nelson & Lakes, Motatapu and a shit load of North Island tracks & races.
> 
> Have to be honest, it looks awesome, I’ll be lining up to do this. It’s private land/property and good on them for finding a way to make a dollar from it. 
> 
> Of course the great shame should it eventuate, would be the denial of access for us as hunters into the doc estate, which is there for all.
> And from what I’ve read in previous comments, there seems to be little sound reason for blocking it now..


Paid for by the tax payer and then denied access to New Zealanders to access to the Kaimanawa’s.
Remember that when your lining up to do this.

----------


## kawekakid

https://fb.watch/f_kWQP-Fp4/

----------


## erniec

Access to the park and what they want to do are not competing for the same bums on seats.
Trampers and hunters are not their targeted market.

Sent from my SM-A226B using Tapatalk

----------


## Hunteast

Well their website does quote hunter trip prices from the Waipakihi Rd base to Waipakihi Hut and other locations on that side of the park? Looks like they are covering all areas of recreational activities? The vid just focuses on mountain biking as a cover?

----------


## Lauries Hut

> Paid for by the tax payer and then denied access to New Zealanders to access to the Kaimanawa’s.
> Remember that when your lining up to do this.


Not saying I agree with the access/road issue, quite the opposite. But the mtb aspect is awesome.
Plus it should give hunters who want to fly, better access into the southern end of the park. 5 min flight rather than 15min. 

I’d expect with the nature of riding there will be plenty of empty return flights, so possibly Helisika will offer a walk in fly out options where we can snag a cheap ride out.

But then HS are not known for value for money, so I wouldn’t hold my breath..

----------


## XR500

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Helisika and 'snag a cheap ride out' have never gone in the same sentence :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:

----------


## imaca

> Not saying I agree with the access/road issue, quite the opposite. But the mtb aspect is awesome.
> *Plus it should give hunters who want to fly, better access into the southern end of the park*. 5 min flight rather than 15min. 
> 
> I’d expect with the nature of riding there will be plenty of empty return flights, so possibly Helisika will offer a walk in fly out options where we can snag a cheap ride out.
> 
> But then HS are not known for value for money, so I wouldn’t hold my breath..


But it gives hunters who want to walk no access.  It's a crock of shit and no amount of rolling it in glitter will disguise this.

To quote Aldo Leopold "Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal"  that is the standard we as hunters should hold ourselves and those we do business with to.  @Lauries Hut.  I respectively ask you to consider this when thinking about supporting this operation.

----------


## kawekakid

Helisika doing honey or hive deliveries into the park mow

----------


## Mohawk .308

> Not saying I agree with the access/road issue, quite the opposite. But the mtb aspect is awesome.
> Plus it should give hunters who want to fly, better access into the southern end of the park. 5 min flight rather than 15min. 
> 
> Id expect with the nature of riding there will be plenty of empty return flights, so possibly Helisika will offer a walk in fly out options where we can snag a cheap ride out.
> 
> But then HS are not known for value for money, so I wouldnt hold my breath..


They can still do the mountain biking operation, and everything else they wont to do with out block public access to the Kaimanawas.
Take a look at the big picture mate and what they are doing. Ive flown in with helisika plenty of times in the past but never again on principle.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> Helisika doing honey or hive deliveries into the park mow


 In the park or private Maori land? They’ve been flying hives in and out for ages to the private land.

----------


## ANOTHERHUNTER

Hunting – Kaimanawa Alpine Adventures
just looking at their price list. A few cheaper flights from their waipakahi base, but thunderbolt tops drop off for example  still the same price as from helisika base .

----------


## Ross Nolan

As noted several pages back, I sat in a meeting with Woody and XR500 at the Taupo Council offices.

Mayor Trewavas, the council counsel and the deputy CEO were there. The Mayor and counsel both said they were unaware of the issue before we contacted them, and initially claimed Waipakihi road wasn't even in the councils area of responsibility. We now see that the council had made a submission in support of the Trust/Helisika plan, as had Enterprise Taupo - funded in main by the council.

I am left with two possible answers as to the statements from the council

1) They are so fantastically incompetent that they were unable to recall writing a submission in favour of what I think is the largest landholder in the district, or

2) they were lying.

Anyone out there with an alternative scenario? I left Africa because of this sort of corrupt bullshit, and I am horrified to see it arriving here.

----------


## Hunteast

Hence my earlier reply that the Mayor was full of bullsh.t. He must think that's okay to lie? And on the topic of the heli price from the Waipakihi Rd for hunters - 2k to the Waiapakihi Hut isn't cheap compared to flying from their Poronui base? Though no option for anything smaller than the Squirrel from the Waipakihi Rd end? This Govt is allowing past public access that once was to be locked out unless you pay $$$ - go figure. And according to media statements online because of 'flytipping' in the area? Really. Also comments from the mods on the Huts and Backcountry FB suggest we are being racist about the Urewera's hut removal and things will get better though Tuhoe are quoted they wish to remove 'Western influence' from the park? All such a pity really - the downhill slide.

----------


## Maxx

> As noted several pages back, I sat in a meeting with Woody and XR500 at the Taupo Council offices.
> 
> Mayor Trewavas, the council counsel and the deputy CEO were there. The Mayor and counsel both said they were unaware of the issue before we contacted them, and initially claimed Waipakihi road wasn't even in the councils area of responsibility. We now see that the council had made a submission in support of the Trust/Helisika plan, as had Enterprise Taupo - funded in main by the council.
> 
> I am left with two possible answers as to the statements from the council
> 
> 1) They are so fantastically incompetent that they were unable to recall writing a submission in favour of what I think is the largest landholder in the district, or
> 
> 2) they were lying.
> ...


Yeah, I have an alternative scenario, based on the thesis _"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."_ though I'm inclined to substitute ignorance for stupidity in this case. I'm not at all surprised that the Council reps at your meeting didn't know of this . I'd speculate that providing a submission in favour of something like this  would not be something that crosses any of their desks, and if it did it would be supported particularly having regard for the party proposing it, and the current political climate.  

Also expect the proposal provided to Council and the PGF wouldn't have noted that the public access would be closed.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> Yeah, I have an alternative scenario, based on the thesis _"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."_ though I'm inclined to substitute ignorance for stupidity in this case. I'm not at all surprised that the Council reps at your meeting didn't know of this . I'd speculate that providing a submission in favour of something like this  would not be something that crosses any of their desks, and if it did it would be supported particularly having regard for the party proposing it, and the current political climate.  
> 
> Also expect the proposal provided to Council and the PGF wouldn't have noted that the public access would be closed.


That is generous of you, but having met the guy I'm inclined to go with 2).

We sent a precis of the issue through, and I cannot believe that nobody did a search of the database with the words Rotoaira trust + Waipakihi road in it before meeting with us.

----------


## Friwi

So if the people in that meeting did not have any clue, at least they must be able to point out who is/ the personal in charge of signing resource consents and stuff like that for the helisika development of their new venture.

----------


## Rusky

I'll conclude this whole thread in just a few words.  

You have sadly lost public access. Move on.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> I'll conclude this whole thread in just a few words.  
> 
> You have sadly lost public access. Move on.


You know where you can shove ya ‘move on’ mate

----------


## Shearer

> I'll conclude this whole thread in just a few words.  
> 
> You have sadly lost public access. Move on.


Move on. Really. How about we all just bend over and take another one for the team of 5 million.

----------


## XR500

> I'll conclude this whole thread in just a few words.  
> 
> You have sadly lost public access. Move on.


If we all thought like that we would very quickly find what used to be owned by every single New Zealander was shut up/off limits and would cost you in transport and royalties and other 'fees' to enjoy.

Luckily most of don't lie down that easily

----------


## m101a1

> If we all thought like that we would very quickly find what used to be owned by every single New Zealander was shut up/off limits and would cost you in transport and royalties and other 'fees' to enjoy.
> 
> Luckily most of don't lie down that easily


Spoken like a true trooper

----------


## Rusky

That was the exact response I was expecting. 

Good to see some fight is still in some of you. Regardless, do you actually think challenging those responsible for making these decisions are going to "back pedal" and make any sensible changes? 

The way I see it, it's a done deal.

----------


## Hunteast

True, but the heli company relies on likely more rec hunters throughout the year than just the mountain biking trails they now offer from the Waipakihi Rd end. Hunting clients having second thoughts about their public access routes denied aside from flying in would probably make some statement on what's not right if they looked elsewhere? Look at Lakeland Helicopters and Air Charter Taupo - great service in the past and good competition but locked out by..... the big picture is like an election - you get what you vote for.

----------


## Lauries Hut

> Hence my earlier reply that the Mayor was full of bullsh.t. He must think that's okay to lie? And on the topic of the heli price from the Waipakihi Rd for hunters - 2k to the Waiapakihi Hut isn't cheap compared to flying from their Poronui base? Though no option for anything smaller than the Squirrel from the Waipakihi Rd end? This Govt is allowing past public access that once was to be locked out unless you pay $$$ - go figure. And according to media statements online because of 'flytipping' in the area? Really. Also comments from the mods on the Huts and Backcountry FB suggest we are being racist about the Urewera's hut removal and things will get better though Tuhoe are quoted they wish to remove 'Western influence' from the park? All such a pity really - the downhill slide.



Yeh; I had a look the other day and thought; has to be a mistake.
$2,000 to the Waipakihi hut, and I think it was $1800 to the Thunderbolt pad.  Seems very high, for a short hop. I havent had a look on a map, to compare with their other distances. But looks like a decent Koha is going elsewhere, which I suppose is to be expected. If it was my land Id be wanting a cut of the action.

----------


## Ranger 888

> You know where you can shove ya move on mate


Guys, don't shoot the messenger. Do some research, check for yourselves. DoC is doing "covert" deals over land swaps with various iwi around the country, that don't require public consultation. There is a push for the DoC estate to be handed to the first settlers of this country (Te Urewera was not the first example of this- I'm personally dealing with another example). They have a different attitude to us in how land should be managed. In the news today, I learnt that our courts now have the discretion to apply tikanga in ANY case they deal with, including the Peter Ellis creche case. Withdraw your heads from the sand, gentlemen. You are entitled to feel indignant, to say it's not right, but it is our future.

----------


## Ranger 888

Google: "Govt. asked to hand entire conservation estate to Maori"- May 2021.

----------


## BSA

> Google: "Govt. asked to hand entire conservation estate to Maori"- May 2021.


As I have stated before the Stewardship Land Review is going to see big changes to NZ's Public Lands. Ownership/Access.

----------


## chainsaw

“ You are entitled to feel indignant, to say it's not right, but it is our future.”

This “future” only exists under the current political set up in Wellington where the red party are hostage to a certain faction in their caucus. Hopefully this ends in late 2023…. So best make sure you know which other parties are committed to ending the madness and changing laws accordingly

----------


## Steve123

> “ You are entitled to feel indignant, to say it's not right, but it is our future.”
> 
> This “future” only exists under the current political set up in Wellington where the red party are hostage to a certain faction in their caucus. Hopefully this ends in late 2023…. So best make sure you know which other parties are committed to ending the madness and changing laws accordingly


Looks like it's time to start lobbying our Mp's to see whats up 
I didn't see any reference to imposing apartheid in labours electioneering. Or stealing water and sewage or.   .....
The Labour Maori Caucus are showing just how racist they really are.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> Looks like it's time to start lobbying our Mp's to see whats up 
> I didn't see any reference to imposing apartheid in labours electioneering. Or stealing water and sewage or.   .....
> The Labour Maori Caucus are showing just how racist they really are.


Yep, Willie Jackson would have to be the biggest Racist in the country.

----------


## Tahr

This thread has turned to the usual un-constructive political and racial slurring. Hopeless.

----------


## Rusky

> This thread has turned to the usual un-constructive political and racial slurring. Hopeless.


Yes. Hence my conclusion statement earlier. Most threads die in this fashion.

----------


## Shearer

The crux of this is that the government appear to be able to give away public land to private enterprise (at the expense of other users) with no consultation or even informing affected parties. The race card is a total red herring. It makes no difference to me whether that private organization is Maori, European, Chinese or whatever. This should not be able to happen! I have no problem with government supporting business either, but not by taking from other New Zealanders.
All very well for some to say "Move on" or "Get over it. It is the future". Lets hope you have a good explanation for your grandkids about how this future came about when they ask you where all the back country huts and tracks went and why they can't walk into the Otane, Harkness, Cupola and Misery like you did as a young man.

----------


## erniec

It is interesting how other countries like Scotland have legislated public access across private and the public estate.
Maybe NZ need to look outside of out little world.

----------


## Rusky

> It is interesting how other countries like Scotland have legislated public access across private and the public estate.
> Maybe NZ need to look outside of out little world.


That's the exact "outside the square" thinking that is required in order for public access to remain in the hands of the public and not private entities. Crying wolf when something like public access is removed is a complete waste of time.  If these corporate bodies want to go behind closed doors without public consultation and overturn our public access rights, then having a legal road block (excuse the pun) is a system that would work for us in our favor to future proof history repeating itself.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> That's the exact "outside the square" thinking that is required in order for public access to remain in the hands of the public and not private entities. Crying wolf when something like public access is removed is a complete waste of time.  If these corporate bodies want to go behind closed doors without public consultation and overturn our public access rights, then having a legal road block (excuse the pun) is a system that would work for us in our favor to future proof history repeating itself.


The real concern here is not the private parties, but rather the Govt bodies that are flat out giving away the Public ownership of the Crown Estate.

Private companies, Trusts etc will (nearly) always game the system to their advantage, but the Govt is supposed to be working on behalf of ALL New Zealanders. They are giving away assets that are meant to be held in trust for all New Zealanders, for all time.

----------


## erniec

You are right, but we need to be able to say look this works for others keeps all parties happy and gives them a roadmap to work too.
Access like the Waipakihi needs to be recognised as a access that has been used and enjoyed by many for decades.
Looked after maintained and those who abuse it sorted.
Not just locked up.
I can afford the odd helicopter trip but happy to use shanks pony as well.
But their are many who cannot afford nor want a helicopter trip that need access kept for them.

----------


## 25/08 IMP

This was posted on FB by Kaimanawa Alpine Adventures today.

Hi --- , if you and any other user with concerns about the gate on Waipakahi road would like to send us an email to info@kaa.co.nz highlighting your concerns. Also ideally some suggestions on how you think access can be maintained, benefiting both land owners and park users. I will ensure this gets past along to the Trust as they talk with DOC to decide the best way to manage access.

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

----------


## Ross Nolan

Kaimanawa Alpine adventures are Helisika. 

Disingenuous is the politest word I can come up with for their FB post.

Also, I would remind everyone that both LINZ and the Maori Land Court state that the piece of land the road is on is Crown Land. I'd believe their research over the nonsense coming from the NZ Access Commission.

----------


## Shearer

I received this from HeliSika this morning.

As far as we have been made aware the road itself is owned by the trust, however this is not my field mate i'm just trying to mediate to ensure the best outcome for everyone.

If the road was crown owned then as far as i'm aware they legally can’t close the gate. However, I'm fairly confident the Trust have done there due diligence and the road is Trust Owned. 
Either way this is not my field that’s a job for the lawyers,

If the road is Owned by the Trust they have a right to close public access as you would if people were driving over your land. 

However, we don’t want to see this happen, we would much prefer a system to allow access for all users. That is where suggestions would be welcome on how this may work.
Possibly similar to Poronui with parking and a poled route so you can still access the park. 

The issue with leaving the gate open is 4WD vehicles can access the river bed. Over the years they have caused plenty of damage and left rubbish and permanent campsites etc up the river, and i'm sure nobody wants to see the area deteriorate in such a way. 

If you have any other suggestions you would like passed on to the people make the decision please let me know.

Kind Regards

Thomas Orr
Kaimanawa Alpine Adventures

----------


## Ross Nolan

I don't facebook, but if someone who does can pm me their email address I'll send them the email from the Maori Land Court,  and they can send it to Mr Orr.

----------


## Shearer

> I don't facebook, but if someone who does can pm me their email address I'll send them the email from the Maori Land Court,  and they can send it to Mr Orr.


I don't either. Just use the link in post #541. It should go straight to your email.

----------


## Cigar

Who owns the land now is largely irrelevant, it's who owns it in the near future that is the really important bit.

The gates were open last week, so I assume the land hasn't been handed over yet.

----------


## Shearer

Who owns it now is very important, because if it is the Crown there has to be a transparent and reasonable process observed to change that ownership which, if seen as unjust, can be challenged.

----------


## Maxx

> Who owns it now is very important, because if it is the Crown there has to be a transparent and reasonable process observed to change that ownership which, if seen as unjust, can be challenged.


I expect that any process around transferring ownership happened quite some time ago, and its just the 'i' dotting and 't' crossing left to do.

----------


## kawekakid

https://fb.watch/g7oP7SdQ2M/

----------


## Shearer

Personally I have no problem with HeliSika/KAA making a commercial venture on private land. Good on them. As long as it isn't at the expense of public access on public land.

----------


## XR500

> ... the Crown there has to be a transparent and reasonable .....


 :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :OSMILEY:

----------


## Tahr

> 


I think that 11 laughing faces breaches the cynical threshold  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## XR500

It was meant to :Cool:

----------


## ANTSMAN

> This thread has turned to the usual un-constructive political and racial slurring. Hopeless.


yep, i reckon its because most people are unable to listen or talk with others without stating their own viewpoint first/repeatedly   :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## lau lau

Has access been restricted or closed off to waipakahi?
Just curious as I normally head in after New years for a few days

----------


## pennyless

Last I heard about 2 weeks ago gate was still open. Pennyless

----------


## JustAnotherSpearo

Was still open on the 29th of Nov hoping to get in late January if possible

----------


## PillowDribbler

Rangipo was open on Thursday.

----------


## 300CALMAN

> This thread has turned to the usual un-constructive political and racial slurring. Hopeless.


The result of politicians creating division to their own gains and alienating hunters (and dare I mention shooters). It's easy for people who have access to private land etc to remain smug and calm but for the rest of us we look at a future where we will be severely limited in hunting and who knows for our kids. Censorship is what the people burning huts and cutting off access will most want.

But go ahead and moan to the censors.

----------


## kawekakid

Waipakahi road us open .End of road pretty washed out .First creek to cross before river is ok today.  River in flood so no crossing there .Up river  plenty  rocks moved so old track up river will need to be checked after river goes down .

----------


## Bagheera



----------


## Ratherbe

good to see the gates are still open for now. Hopefully if those who visit can keep the place tidy then the owners might not use that as an excuse to close them... heres hoping anyway. its a bloody great place to hunt, be a shame to lose it.

----------


## Nathan F

An Acetylene torch will be your best friend going forward

----------


## 7mmwsm

> An Acetylene torch will be your best friend going forward


With comments like that, a acetylene torch could be YOUR worst enemy going forward.
What goes around comes around.

----------


## Ranger 888

> Attachment 212957
> 
> Attachment 212958
> 
> Attachment 212959
> 
> Attachment 212960


Looking at photo number 1, you couldn't just drive around the right hand structure in a 4WD?

----------


## Nathan F

> With comments like that, a acetylene torch could be YOUR worst enemy going forward.
> What goes around comes around.


Maybe ? Can tell you one thing if I was still living up there and that was my local hunting area I wouldnt be lying down and taking that rubbish.

----------


## JustAnotherSpearo

> Looking at photo number 1, you couldn't just drive around the right hand structure in a 4WD?


At a glance last time I drove past the gate there was rather large concrete structures to the side. Maybe power poles or something to that extent laying down

----------


## XR500

There's numerous ways around that gate location, but that's not the point: the roads on Crown land. Period.

----------


## erniec

> There's numerous ways around that gate location, but that's not the point: the roads on Crown land. Period.


Agree and loss of access is/should be a concern to all access to most of NZs public land needs to be increased and improved.
And at the same time deal to shitheads, they reflect badly on all users be them hunters 4wds trampers or campers.
The Youtube videos showing dickheads cutting down trees, why weren't they prosecuted.

----------


## Tahr

I wouldn't be so certain about the illegality of the situation. If there was certainty it would be challengeable in court - and that hasn't happened.

What has really surprised me is the ambivalence DOC, the Access Commission, Tramping Federation/Fed Mountain Clubs, Taupo Council and NZDA etc have shown towards the situation.  I've pretty much talked to and raised it with every outdoors organisation I have contacts with and the answer has been the same. "We are watching the situation, we are concerned, there is other access, there is nothing we can do" ...

Has anyone got an update on if anything positive is happening to get the situation resolved?

----------


## erniec

Possibly not challenged in court because of the cost.
Others will know better than me.
But years ago, I was advised to challenge an irrigation consent  issue was $5k to lodge.

Sent from my SM-A226B using Tapatalk

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## 300CALMAN

I am guessing that until they actually shut the gate and block access it will be hard to make something stick.

----------


## Ross Nolan

The ombudsman is involved, with particular regard to TDC's role in the matter. They have been negligent in their responsibilities of maintaining the road, and have made statements both publicly and in meetings that are demonstrably wrong, that they knew were so.
It looks like the CEO has moved on before his contract is up also, so things are (veeeeert slowly) happening.

My personal belief is that both the Govt and TDC would prefer that the land was given to Iwi, and they could then wash their hands of the matter - "it's private land, nothing to do with us"

----------


## Nathan F

I think one thing is for certain - If the gate is locked and Helisika get their way it sets an extremely dangerous precedent for ALL back country users. Not just us self-centered hunters.

It will end badly .

----------


## Maxx

> The ombudsman is involved, with particular regard to TDC's role in the matter. They have been negligent in their responsibilities of maintaining the road, and have made statements both publicly and in meetings that are demonstrably wrong, that they knew were so.
> It looks like the CEO has moved on before his contract is up also, so things are (veeeeert slowly) happening.
> 
> My personal belief is that both the Govt and TDC would prefer that the land was given to Iwi, and they could then wash their hands of the matter - "it's private land, nothing to do with us"


Seems to me that the Ombudsman’s office typically says either ‘nothing to see here’ or on occasion ‘that was wrong’ , with the emphasis on the past tense? And even more rarely ‘ best you apologise’. I’m not aware of examples where the office says ‘back up and undo that’?

Good on you for trying, but I don’t understand how the Ombudsman can unwind this?

----------


## Woody

Ombudsman can make recommendations to the relavent ministers for action. Apart from that, if public servants have acted innapropriately that PS authority must take action.

----------


## Bagheera

> I wouldn't be so certain about the illegality of the situation. If there was certainty it would be challengeable in court - and that hasn't happened.
> 
> What has really surprised me is the ambivalence DOC, the Access Commission, Tramping Federation/Fed Mountain Clubs, Taupo Council and NZDA etc have shown towards the situation.  I've pretty much talked to and raised it with every outdoors organisation I have contacts with and the answer has been the same. "We are watching the situation, we are concerned, there is other access, there is nothing we can do" ...
> 
> Has anyone got an update on if anything positive is happening to get the situation resolved?


Yes, Ive also contacted FMC, NZDA and te herenga (walking access) and got the same response from each: Lets see how it plays out .

----------


## 300CALMAN

> Yes, Ive also contacted FMC, NZDA and te herenga (walking access) and got the same response from each: “Lets see how it plays out .”


I would love to get that response if it was access to the local park or a road to their house.

----------


## Woody

Re, the apparrent bs from TDC. The State Services Commissioner is the agency to examine conduct.

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## Tahr

> Seems to me that the Ombudsman’s office typically says either ‘nothing to see here’ or on occasion ‘that was wrong’ , with the emphasis on the past tense? And even more rarely ‘ best you apologise’. I’m not aware of examples where the office says ‘back up and undo that’?
> 
> Good on you for trying, but I don’t understand how the Ombudsman can unwind this?


Correct. The Ombudsman has no powers of enforcement but can be quite persuasive.

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## ANTSMAN

> I think one thing is for certain - If the gate is locked and Helisika get their way it sets an extremely dangerous precedent for ALL back country users. Not just us self-centered hunters.
> 
> It will end badly .


Yep agree with this.
It sorta seems to me it's like the "possession is 9 tenths of the law" type of thing.

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## Bill999

its how these things go
the gate is put in but never closed
then the gate starts getting closed
the gate then gets locked 
no access anymore

gas torches are big and messy, the ones that do it up here use 18v makita angle grinders and cut off disks

I do enjoy when small sticks and or super glue finds its way into the locks key part

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## Maxx

> its how these things go
> the gate is put in but never closed
> then the gate starts getting closed
> the gate then gets locked 
> no access anymore
> 
> gas torches are big and messy, the ones that do it up here use 18v makita angle grinders and cut off disks
> 
> _I do enjoy when small sticks and or super glue finds its way into the locks key part_


Yeah, understand that...but in cases like this that kinda response just helps validate the decision to close access, imo. Can help confirm the view that those who used/want to use the place are just arseholes ..... ?

As @Tahr said earlier, the silence from the various advocacy organisations (and public entities) is disappointing, if not unsurprising. And its nearly always easier to stop stuff from happening in the first place, rather than trying to reverse it once it has happened. Maybe crowd funding for legal advice as to what the options might be (or NZDA members asking their executive what their advice said)  ?

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## Ross Nolan

While speculation about vandalism of locks  that currently aren't in place is probably not in our interest, the facts seem to be that the only illegal action by anyone so far is the construction of gate structures on a Crown owned piece of land.

The Crown does appear to have given out a song sheet to the various interested (and some supposedly independent) bodies involved, as it is almost inconceivable that they could all be so closely aligned by some random arrangement of the stars.....

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## Cigar

> ... its nearly always easier to stop stuff from happening in the first place...


I agree 100%. It got to be a lot easier to try and keep the land in Crown ownership, than to get it changed back once it's been transferred to private owners.

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## PillowDribbler

This here has had a update back in October,a lot more research gone on.Kudos to researcher ya earned Christmas break.Cheers  https://www.herengaanuku.govt.nz/abo...ipakihi-roads/

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## Woody

Seems to be a government department  but what its maori language means is incomprehensible to me.

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## erniec

Outdoor Access Commission renamed apparently, interestingly appears to be involved in this case a reduction in outdoor access for the public.
My take on it anyway.

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## JustAnotherSpearo

Am I reading that correctly?? Definitely crown owned land for the road access, at the moment they can't do a bloody thing to stop public access and there is no real reasoning that it is going back to the Maori trust apart from back in the late 1800s there was no access routes or roads over the land (like most of the undeveloped country in that era).

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## Bagheera

Who was the “former owner” of the Waipakihi Road land ?  
I had thought it was taken from the Tongariro National Park or equivalent at the time.
This is the only piece if land that is proposed to be returned to “the former or adjacent land owners”. 
That strongly suggests that the adjacent land owners are distinct from the former land owners and that its transfer to the Lake Rotoaira Forest Trust is not inevitable.  
As @Tahr says, there is plenty of scope for legal debate but this may enable the road land to be transferred to secure publuc ownership and access.

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## stumpys

https://www.facebook.com/index.php?s...8VgA1u3hs-rzch

this post shows a lockd gate - presumably up to the hanger?

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## camenzie

Cant access the photo @stumpys. Can you save it and post it here?

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## kawekakid

Gates are not locked but road has been renovated and all the pot holes are fixed to native .As from there even a good 4x4 will have issues getting to the river after the last rain.

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## camenzie

> ...all the pot holes are fixed to native..


At least something good has come out of this debacle. Mind you, the pot holes did a good job of keeping out civvies looking for a spot to camp just off SH1. An increase in that won't help.

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