# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  44-40 Reloading/Shooting

## Jhon

Anyone reloading ? or shooting 44-40 WCF?

Picked up a Rossi Puma 20" unexpectedly lol. 

Another fun calibre to get into. I'm not into CAS so will be playing with Bush distance hunting loads.

If someone has a Rossi Puma can you confirm they used the .429 bore (44Mag) rather than the original. 427 ? Would simplify life if I use the same slug as for the 44Mag.

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## Frogfeatures

Yep, I’ve got a Rossi 92 as well
You can you 44 mag projectiles 
I use the Hornady 200gr XTP, and AR2205

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## Jhon

Excellent,  thks!

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## Jhon

.

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## Micky Duck

if you have any issues got a hold of Carlson Highway ...he still hangs out at the other pub...he seems to know a trick or three to get these working right.

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## Jhon

Hi Arthur, great info thank you! Will pay attention to it. For hunting I am ok with one in the chamber and one in the spout. Yes Lee FCDs are excellent,  I use several of them in different applications..A pkt of 20 Hornady factory loads came with it, rated at 730fps. I figured they would be useful to check the rifles operation and the brass to reload. Not much else. Starline brass I use in other calibres but will check that supplier out, had not come across them. I will have either a Red Dot or a low fixed power scope on it. Eyes no longer good enough for open and its missing the rear sight ramp any how. AP70N is interesting. I have older Nobel 78 Shotgun powder in qty and using Red Dot data to work up from it gives me excellent results in 308 reduced cast loads around 1600fps. Does not solve the bullet retention issue of course. Have you tried TrailBoss? Does a filled case give enough velocity. Yes, 1300fps would be fine. And do you favour any brand of dies over others for this calibre? I have mostly Lee with  a couple in Hornady, an old Lyman set in 7mmMauser and another in 222, and one set of Redding. None of them give me probs, just as happy with Lee as any. But I'm a field shooter not benchrest and 200m is about as far as I normally shoot.  I'll check those powders out, if I can find some. Otherwise it will be what I can find loads for for the powders I have. 

I have another couple of projects on the go so it will be a couple of months before I turn seriously to collecting brass and dies. Good to know 44mag pills will work as I have a stash of those of various types

Thks again! Will keep in touch

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## Jhon

So things progress...

Got the use of a set of Lyman Dies with a Redding Pro Crimp Die and a starter pack of half a hundred of Rob Walkers 215gn Cup point cast proj plain base, at .430 dia.. And 100 Starline brass. And a jug of AR2207 surprise surprise. Printed off a bunch of LOADDATA pages basically confirming what was already offered above. 

The issue of the bullet needing to be supported, originally by the BP charge, to stop it retreating into the brass occupied my mind a bit. I have other viable powders but none of them providing the bulk fill of AR2207. In making the crimp with the Redding Die, I seated the bullet so the front edge of the case was a gnats arse hair behind the front edge of the crimp groove on the bullet. Then crimped the case so the brass barely catches my thumb nail dragging it from bullet ogive across the brass mouth edge. Figuring that the case mouth itself should resist the bullet receding into the case under recoil pressure into the magazine tube of my Rossi Puma. I'm not even sure if the AR2207, at my first load of 25gn, is actually supporting the projectile. I'm making test loads at 25, 25.5, 26, and 26.5gn. 

If the crimp catching the cannelure front edge is sufficient to hold the bullet, then non-bulk powders using around the 6-9 grains for a charge should not be an issue re bullet telescoping. Right? Wrong? Hopefully?

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## Micky Duck

interesting..you are the first and ONLY person Ive ever seen complain about Roberts lube,or projectiles....

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## Jhon

Ok, anyone got a tub or part tub of AR2205 in the Sth Island that I can buy and have shipped to Arthur to exchange for some of his cast bullets? Or anyone driving from the North willing to carry it?

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## Jhon

To Arthur, thks for the further info/comments. Guess I'll stick to the AR2207 for the mo. Although crimping the case behind the bullet is an interesting idea. Surely some smart kiwi fella could make such a die 
As to black powder, loved shooting a mates musket a couple of times. Lungs couldn't handle the smoke. Lube smoke is bad enough.  And then the residue from that stuff is terribly corrosive. Happy to avoid.

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## Jhon

Here's a shout out for Robbie & Amanda at Gunworks. Found a Lee 44-40 FCD on their website about halfway thru yesterday, on my doorstep by 9.30am this morning. Price, $30 plus $7.50 courier. Awesome and not the first good experience I've had from them. Just saying...

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## Micky Duck

yes Gunworks is great...however Robbie passed away,what is it??? two??? years ago now.

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## Jhon

> yes Gunworks is great...however Robbie passed away,what is it??? two??? years ago now.


Ahhh...was not aware of that, email comes from "Robbie & Amanda..." for some reason. Thks for the nod.

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## Jhon

So I got out in the paddock today with some loads.  I know Arthur you said go straight to 26gn of AR2207, and you were right, but couldn't help myself lol.  Did a short ladder test per below.  I did not get to change the lube on the Walker Cast bullets.  There was no noticeable smokiness  and the velocities and 26gn group were pretty adequate.  i will try your recipe however next lot I get and see what diff it makes. Re the crimp and bullet movement issues,  I had done the roll crimp as per post above with the Lyman die before the Lee FCD came to hand.  Then, when it came,  I ran them all thru the FCD at max crimp setting.  I had the AR2207 loads plus some Trail Boss, some Red Dot and some Vhitavuori Tin Star.  I started off with just 3 loaded in the mag with 2 when first shot was fired.  Then progressed to 5 and 6.  None of the bullets showed any sign of moving in the case which is promising. As above, I seated the bullet so the case mouth when crimped was up against the forward edge of the crimp cannelure. 

I am only posting the AR2207 results.  The Red Dot (actually not Red Dot but a close analogue) had good consistent velocities but very poor groups.  The Tin Star I only loaded in 2's to gauge velocity as I was running out of projectiles at that stage.  It seemed promising - up around the mid-1300fps.  And it fills the case as much as the AR2007 so will do a proper range test of that down the track. 

The Vortex Scout Scope is a new piece of kit for me and was really nice to use. The rail is a Pearson's TacRail specifically for the Rossi Puma 92.

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## Jhon

Cool. I agree with what you say about the Rossi. Ive been shooting goats out to 200m with a 357mag, orig open sights and a 158gn pill but stopped talking about it when I got rubbished on an earlier post. I've decided my eyes are no longer up for that, and ethical kills become an issue, hence the rail and the scope. A Red Dot now lives on the 357. The Pearsons rail does not use the barrel band. Does not reach that far. I have a .454 Casull however dressed by LSI and their rail is tapped and screwed into the barrel band.  A more supported and stronger option. Looking forward to your posting your BP results. Unfortunately my lungs can't abide the stuff. Hope to chase some goats with optics this weekend.

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## Frogfeatures

@Arthur McBride  what position have you found best for bench rest accuracy ?

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## Micky Duck

just like a BLR...have off hand on the magazine NOT on forestock....actually come to think of it I did same with the old 94 30/30 too.... think its the flex of foreend not being same each time that throws shots.doesnt matter a bit when shooting offhand,you wont notice difference.
pleased these rifles are working for you.

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## Jhon

Mmmm @Arthur McBride love the wet t-towell, hadn't thought of that one. Count me in!

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## Marty Henry

Interesting @Arthur McBride that you mention smokeless under bp to assist ignition. My copy of Townsend Whelens book says it the other way round bp to spark the smokeless as primers were not always hot enough to ignite the early nitro powders.
But adding a slug of smokeless is a useful trick to reduce fouling with BP that ups velocity slightly and does improve accuracy -across a long string of shots.

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## Marty Henry

@Arthur McBride my memory played tricks on me it wasn't Townsend Whelan,  it was Frank Barnes and John Amber in a 1962 copy of cartridges of the world in a section on priming devices, propellants and projectiles. It took me a while to find it but here is an excerpt.

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## Micky Duck

now that explains a few things nicely....and really makes me wonder how I ended up with two 22-250 loaded rounds with copper primers..... have no idea why mate would even HAVE copper primers.

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## Micky Duck

had quite a read up on duplex loading last night.....1 grn of smokeless and drop 3grns of black powder seems to be the go to...and less than 10% smokeless seems to be ideal.....
different types of smokeless are mentioned.... has definately got me thinking trying small amount, say 4-5grns of smokeless in 45/70 case filled up with black powder...should make cleaning up afterwards much easier from all accounts.
interesting the black is easier to ignite than nitro.....
I was going to poke the little bit of smokeless in first..but it may be just as good in middle or on top...
the reason I thought about duplex in first instance was due to verdigrises on primers on two loads of black powder that have been loaded for six months....
one ignited after being hit 2nd time....the other load wouldnt go off....pulled it when got home and powder was caked in case but dry.primer had failed to ignite at all.
thoughts???
apoligies to OP FOR THREAD HI-JACK

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## Jhon

I love the way threads morph..fill yer boots.

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## Micky Duck

awesome thanks...I enjoy 45grns of 2208 for a smokeless load.....recoil is there but not fierce so perfect,should be about 1600fps with 390-400 grn projectiles.

will do as you have suggested and only put small amount on bottom of case.....you struck corrosion on primers before??? maybe they were kept loaded for too long....

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## Bryan Austin

> Anyone reloading ? or shooting 44-40 WCF?
> 
> Picked up a Rossi Puma 20" unexpectedly lol. 
> 
> Another fun calibre to get into. I'm not into CAS so will be playing with Bush distance hunting loads.
> 
> If someone has a Rossi Puma can you confirm they used the .429 bore (44Mag) rather than the original. 427 ? Would simplify life if I use the same slug as for the 44Mag.


Some modern 44-40 manufactured rifles use .429 bores BUT the twist rate may be different for the 44-40 and 44 Magnum.

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## Jhon

> Some modern 44-40 manufactured rifles use .429 bores BUT the twist rate may be different for the 44-40 and 44 Magnum.


Ha, sleepless night? Yes noted re twist. For 240gn projectiles I'm not sure there is an issue. Apparently all Rossi Pumas have a 1:30 twist. Have not measured that tho. What was the original twist for 44-40 do you know?

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## Tedz50

I really think that everyone is overthinking this topic.
20 Gr 2205 and cast hollow point knocks over Goats and Wallabies at reasonable ranges and 7 Gr AP70 for paper.
Only thing is Lee factory crimp die is essential for tube mags.I shoot original 92,s Remington pump and 73 Winchester and as long as crimp and length are right it shoots no problem.

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## shooternz

> Some modern 44-40 manufactured rifles use .429 bores BUT the twist rate may be different for the 44-40 and 44 Magnum.


All modern 44/40's have ,429" barrels the twist rates are more diverse depending on manufacturer the from 1:36" to 1:20"

This is the one I have should should shoot in all of them it is a clone of the original the important measurement is from the crimp groove
forward much longer will have feed issues.

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## Tedz50

> To Arthur, thks for the further info/comments. Guess I'll stick to the AR2207 for the mo. Although crimping the case behind the bullet is an interesting idea. 
> As to black powder, loved shooting a mates musket a couple of times. Lungs couldn't handle the smoke. Lube smoke is bad enough.  And then the residue from that stuff is terribly corrosive. Happy to avoid.


 Simple roller using small cut off saw blade with teeth dulled off.

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## Jhon

> Attachment 178745 Simple roller using small cut off saw blade with teeth dulled off.


For case crimp?

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## Tedz50

> For case crimp?


You can crimp the case at base of bullet or half way up bullet.Early british case crimped body of case not at neck.    
Early  snider rounds had 3 crimps in case half way up bullet.Kynoch rounds for lever actions had crimp in case at base of bullet.

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## Tedz50

> Magnificent. I imagined a devise like that, made from a pipe cutter, but never got around to it.
> 
> Can you post a picture of a cartridge with a crimp from your device under the bullet?


Pipe cutter cutter needs teeth or some means to turn cases but is also used to put crimping groove in bullets.

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## Jhon

> Winchester factory smokeless also had crimps at the base of the bullet. I used to have a box of Kynoch ammo like that, I used to wonder how old it was, I am pretty sure Kynoch originally went out of business in the late sixties.
> 
> Ted did you make that crimping roller device yourself?
> I might have another try with the old pipe cutter idea...


Ha, please make 2 lol

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## Tedz50

> Winchester factory smokeless also had crimps at the base of the bullet. I used to have a box of Kynoch ammo like that, I used to wonder how old it was, I am pretty sure Kynoch originally went out of business in the late sixties.
> 
> Ted did you make that crimping roller device yourself?
> I might have another try with the old pipe cutter idea...


Arthur. I had that picture stored away as I built similar units to Knurl bullets to hold paper patches and to provide for lube on smooth Prichard style bullets.These bullets [pictured] were cast at 300 grains and fired in a 44 mag using Lee Lube. I hope to adapt it or remake one to put grease grooves on these bullets to carry more lube.

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## Jhon

Came across this excellent site dedicated to 44-40. Lots of info. Check out the Shooting Times Heavy Loads article - 44-40 matching/outperforming 44 Mag - at your own risk I have to say...

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/introduction

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## 300CALMAN

Interesting calibre, I take it my lyman Mold 429-244 would would make suitable bullets?

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## Jhon

> Interesting calibre, I take it my lyman Mold 429-244 would would make suitable bullets?


Possibly. I have some 240g .429 Hawke Targets loaded up ready to try but can't go anywhere to shoot them at the mo. Flick me a few of yours and I'll report back  :Have A Nice Day:

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## shooternz

> Interesting calibre, I take it my lyman Mold 429-244 would would make suitable bullets?


You would need to be careful with that bullet in the 44/40 Lyman moulds with 429 000 are designed for the .44 Special and .44 Magnum
44/40 moulds are 427 000, 
The 429 244 is a 255 grain bullet the heavy 44/40 bullets are 230 grains the length of the nose is the important part too long and it won't
feed or chamber, I have a mould designed for 44/40 pistol use it won't chamber in a rifle the front driving band is too long.

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## shooternz

> Possibly. I have some 240g .429 Hawke Targets loaded up ready to try but can't go anywhere to shoot them at the mo. Flick me a few of yours and I'll report back



Got any pictures of those bullets be interested to see what they look like.

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## Jhon

> Got any pictures of those bullets be interested to see what they look like.


Small pic top of this page
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/categ.../lyman-429-244

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## Jhon

> Came across this excellent site dedicated to 44-40. Lots of info. Check out the Shooting Times Heavy Loads article - 44-40 matching/outperforming 44 Mag - at your own risk I have to say...
> 
> https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/introduction


Have any of you taken a look at this article "Heavy Loads" ?  The repo quality is poor so I painstakingly recreated the load data presented in a Word.docx table.  If you would like it PM me with your email. 
If I read the article correctly it is basically saying any 44 Magnum Load is a candidate for the 44-40, bearing in mind the caveats around rifles - strong action M92 only - and bullets, that are suitable. I need to study it some more. At this point I'm not so sure I need to be chasing 2500 fps ( 160gn HP/33gns 2400). 1400fps is likely to kill anything I want at the ranges I will be shooting. Nevertheless, an interesting premise. Interested in your thoughts...

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## Micky Duck

the 44magnum is one round that is ALWAYS being hotted up....often more than needed,its good as it is,why bother pushing it to edge and making stuff wear out faster,cant see pushing 44/40 being any different.

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## 6x47

Apparently reloaders in the 20's and 30's often hotted the hell out of them which is not clever with a '92 action and plain insane with a '73. I seem to recall reading vels up to 1800fps with 200s but that was ages ago. My orig '92 just gets fed a mild load of 11.5grs of 540 which only gives about 1150fps with bulk 200gr jacketed projs. Those cases are totally unforgiving compared to about anything else.

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## Jhon

> Apparently reloaders in the 20's and 30's often hotted the hell out of them which is not clever with a '92 action and plain insane with a '73. I seem to recall reading vels up to 1800fps with 200s but that was ages ago. My orig '92 just gets fed a mild load of 11.5grs of 540 which only gives about 1150fps with bulk 200gr jacketed projs. Those cases are totally unforgiving compared to about anything else.


Did you read the article?

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## Micky Duck

had quick search...it appears there are now newer stronger NON balloon head cases available so you could quite possibly beef up loads CAREFULLY.

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## 6x47

> Did you read the article?


If you mean your one, no. What I alluded to was over 20yrs ago so NO clue what it actually was now.

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## Jhon

> If you mean your one, no. What I alluded to was over 20yrs ago so NO clue what it actually was now.


Just learning about it myself. During the early days for the calibre there were specific hot loads for the 92 only.  Discontinued after, predictably, people had mishaps with them in revolvers. The article might be worth a read. Basically what it is saying is that, for e.g., if my Rossi Puma 92 in 44mag will sustain a particular load then the 44-40 in the same make/model of rifle will take the same load but achieve lower pressure due to greater case capacity. Or, the greater case capacity can be utilised to outperform a 44mag so long as you remain within the pressure boundaries for that action.  If I understand it correctly...

Apart from doing things because you can, it begs the question of why you would want to?  There may be valid answers to that question.  I'll see how I go, when I eventually get out there, knocking animals over with a pill doing around 1400fps. See how good my stalking is....

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## Micky Duck

https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...d-performance/


mentions the hotter loads in here.....

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## 300CALMAN

> Possibly. I have some 240g .429 Hawke Targets loaded up ready to try but can't go anywhere to shoot them at the mo. Flick me a few of yours and I'll report back


Trying to get wheel weights at the moment. difficult under current circumstances and apparently it's getting more difficult to find.

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## Jhon

> https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...d-performance/
> 
> 
> mentions the hotter loads in here.....


Yes pretty much the same story.  @arthur-McBride has given me a good steer on contemporary loads for Starline brass in my Rossi Puma 92.  Surgery and Covid have successfully interrupted my pleasurable journey with the round but given the issues with holding the bullet in the neck under recoil when in a tube mag, less case capacity in the Starline is, I think, to be favored over greater velocity from larger loads in the old balloon head brass. If you can still get it. Anyway, If I cant kill it with a 200+gn bullet doing in the vicinity of 1400-1500 fps I should probably be shooting something else. All good fun tho.

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## shooternz

> Just learning about it myself. During the early days for the calibre there were specific hot loads for the 92 only.  Discontinued after, predictably, people had mishaps with them in revolvers. The article might be worth a read. Basically what it is saying is that, for e.g., if my Rossi Puma 92 in 44mag will sustain a particular load then the 44-40 in the same make/model of rifle will take the same load but achieve lower pressure due to greater case capacity. Or, the greater case capacity can be utilised to outperform a 44mag so long as you remain within the pressure boundaries for that action.  If I understand it correctly...
> 
> Apart from doing things because you can, it begs the question of why you would want to?  There may be valid answers to that question.  I'll see how I go, when I eventually get out there, knocking animals over with a pill doing around 1400fps. See how good my stalking is....


It is not the action in the case of the 1892 action handling the pressure it is the cases the old ballon head cases are collectors items and were only ever loaded with black powder
they won't handle modern smokeless loading, The modern cases are not designed to handle .44 mag pressures either they are much thinner in the neck, 
There is no point in hot rodding the 44/40 until the 30/30 cam along in 1894 the 44/40 was the king of deer hunting with a velocity around 1200 fps it still kills deer and pigs

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## Micky Duck

so can you make 44/40 cases out of anything else???? and gain stronger brass or does it need to be super thin??? surely there is a longer case from something that can be resized to obtain thicker brass....

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## Micky Duck

so...if we look at comparable cartridges,how do they get around issue???
if we take .22lr its a projectile thats skinnier in the bum section inside case....if that was applied to 44/40 it would serve two purposes...
#1 allow thick walled brass to be used,thus upping case life and potential safe loading
#2 no need for worry about crimp,the fat section of projectile wont push back into case mouth,light crimp entirely feasible with thick brass anyway.

so what would it take...and would gains be worth the mucking around to achieve it.....
re donor cases...I was wondering what more common rimmed round shared head size.....

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## Micky Duck

lol...agreed,the .45/70 with cast and black powder puts a big hole in things...no fuss or bother,and they just die...deader than a dead thing. the hole is like someone has taken a apple corer and punched it through...just a hole with nothing inside it...plenty of daylight can get in .

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## shooternz

> so...if we look at comparable cartridges,how do they get around issue???
> if we take .22lr its a projectile thats skinnier in the bum section inside case....if that was applied to 44/40 it would serve two purposes...
> #1 allow thick walled brass to be used,thus upping case life and potential safe loading
> #2 no need for worry about crimp,the fat section of projectile wont push back into case mouth,light crimp entirely feasible with thick brass anyway.
> 
> so what would it take...and would gains be worth the mucking around to achieve it.....
> 
> re donor cases...I was wondering what more common rimmed round shared head size.....


I have seen a .44 heeled bullet mould listed some where, Didn't take any notice as it is not a good idea would probably 
need specialise dies to load it, The modern brass like Starline is very good much better than the older cases not much point in
makeing 44/40 brass out of other brass that costs more, Just buy a decent amount when it is available again and don't overload it
buy a .44 Magnum.

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## Jhon

> Got any pictures of those bullets be interested to see what they look like.


Re reading this thread and I realise  @shooternz that I mis-understood which bullet you were referring to.  Thought you were asking after the Lyman 429-244.  Here is picture of the Hawke Targets



I started drilling the noses of some to HP them but put it aside waiting for a suitable hobby vice to arrive from Ali to hold them etc.  That was before lockdown and moving so cant access them at the moment.  This image is from the Delta Mike Website.

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## Makros

> Re reading this thread and I realise  @shooternz that I mis-understood which bullet you were referring to.  Thought you were asking after the Lyman 429-244.  Here is picture of the Hawke Targets
> 
> Attachment 179609
> 
> I started drilling the noses of some to HP them but put it aside waiting for a suitable hobby vice to arrive from Ali to hold them etc.  That was before lockdown and moving so cant access them at the moment.  This image is from the Delta Mike Website.


I've just loaded a bunch of these projectiles up in 44-40 and will probably sort a few more out tonight. Going to the range Sunday so will let you know how I got on. Did notice I needed quite a bit of a flare in the case to get these started.
Based on Arthur's posts I've given then a rather solid crimp.
Hard to go wrong for the price I felt; 400 for 120 odd dollars or something.

I haven't added any lube as the coating seems quite slick and extra seems superfluous.

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## Tedz50

> It needs to be thin.
> The base of a .44 Magnum is smaller than a .44-40. I imagine if you resize it in a .44-40 die, it would blow the head if you could fire it, and split. 
> (Also, the thicker brass at the mouth means you would need a smaller diameter bullet in order to chamber, so you would be shooting say a .428 size bullet in a .430 bore.)
> 
> I just googled it and apparently you can make brass from .30-40 Krag, but need to neck ream the brass to make it thin enough. I am guessing the thicker brass will not expand and seal with the low pressures. 
> 
> I havnt tried it but I bet you could make it from .38-40 with one pass in a die, but it might be short.


This thread has become riveting reading for me,more than any other.
I have made 45 colts from 303 brit and also 44/40 cases when  45 cases were not available so the reverse must work,also 44/40s with crushed necks become 455 Webley cases.

Checking my ammo hoard I note that kynoch, winchester, remington and Imperial all crimp the case behind the bullet to stop it pushing into the case in tube mags.

I also note ammo prices have jumped recently as well.

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## Jhon

> That's a good hoard. I had a box of Kynoch with only three rounds missing. Kynoch and Winchester doesnt shoot in my modern rifles, eight inch groups at 50 metres, certainly because they would be .427 bullets and all my .44-40s have been .429 -.430 bores. I have been after a Winchester 92 rifle for years but all the ones I have come across have had rotted out pitted bores. There used to be lots of them floating around in Aus.
> 
> I am willing to bet that not many people more than Tedz40 and me are hunting deer with this cartridge in NZ. Hopefully you guys can join the club.
> 
> 
> I am going to have another go at crimping under the bullet over the weekend.


Well I certainly intend to join the club but I'll be starting on goats until I've completed relocation to NP.  In the meantime we are still in the gulag looking yearningly out the window with no bush or roiling hills in sight trying to think kind thoughts  :Pissed Off:  :Pissed Off:  :Pissed Off:  . 

At least I got the thumbs up from my surgeon today and got to ditch the sling. Keep the info coming. You guys have made this thread a good read.

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## Makros

> I've just loaded a bunch of these projectiles up in 44-40 and will probably sort a few more out tonight. Going to the range Sunday so will let you know how I got on. Did notice I needed quite a bit of a flare in the case to get these started.
> Based on Arthur's posts I've given then a rather solid crimp.
> Hard to go wrong for the price I felt; 400 for 120 odd dollars or something.
> 
> I haven't added any lube as the coating seems quite slick and extra seems superfluous.


Slight follow up. Don't try and reduce the flare. Do a good amount to the point the base of the bullet can be comfortably placed on top. Pain in the arse to have less. I ended up going back to the flaring die after seating a couple.

I also ended up seating them in maybe 1mm and the coming back down and rechecking the bullets are straight and then tweaking them if not before seating them home.

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## Jhon

> I've just loaded a bunch of these projectiles up in 44-40 and will probably sort a few more out tonight. Going to the range Sunday so will let you know how I got on. Did notice I needed quite a bit of a flare in the case to get these started.
> Based on Arthur's posts I've given then a rather solid crimp.
> Hard to go wrong for the price I felt; 400 for 120 odd dollars or something.
> 
> I haven't added any lube as the coating seems quite slick and extra seems superfluous.


I've long used the 158gn round and conical flat point in my 357mag. No lube is required with powder coated on any projectile. Would defeat the purpose of powder coating. Agree these are nice and slick.

The 158gn 357 are deadly on goats. I prefer the flat point as it cuts a better wound channel but the round nose is very effective and what I had first to use - same looking projectile, different manufacturer. I've never recovered one but I suspect they are soft enough to deform well. 

And yes, the price is hard to beat plus the RiverHawkes are a very uniform bullet. And with the 44 cal you do have to flare enough to seat them easily. Upside is there is a tad more grip from neck tension. I also took Arthur McBrides advice, loaded AR2207 to slightly compress, about 26gn,  and crimped hard with a Lee FCD

 I have not been able to get mine to the range in 44-40 to test yet so will hear your results with great interest. Cheers  J.

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## Micky Duck

> Slight follow up. Don't try and reduce the flare. Do a good amount to the point the base of the bullet can be comfortably placed on top. Pain in the arse to have less. I ended up going back to the flaring die after seating a couple.
> 
> I also ended up seating them in maybe 1mm and the coming back down and rechecking the bullets are straight and then tweaking them if not before seating them home.


turn case in die and continue seating does same thing...I do it for all my loads,with .45/70 and cast,will turn it a couple of times as it goes progressively deeper...seems to work ok.

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## Jhon

> turn case in die and continue seating does same thing...I do it for all my loads,with .45/70 and cast,will turn it a couple of times as it goes progressively deeper...seems to work ok.


Yes I do the same once its started in the flare, do it with factory jacketed in all rifle calibres actually,  helps wjth concentricity.

----------


## Micky Duck

my old mate with flashasmichaeljackson gear tested some of my hunting .270 loads in one of them guage thinggymabobbies...and my loads were as straight as his neck turned,batch sorted,loaded in expensive gear loads,LMFAO....

----------


## Jhon

> OK - I did it! 
> I am quite pleased with myself, its taken me over ten years to figure this out and would never have believed I could have done it so well or as simply as this.


Bloody Awesome! I'm quite pleased with you too. I'm off to buy one of those gadgets soon as Cindy let's me. Well done!

Update:  I've just checked on the Mitre10 website - that little gadget is now $16.31 - inflation!  lol

Cheap at twice the price....

----------


## Makros

At the range now.  Shooting the 44.40. Loads of 26 grains of Ar2207 shoot well faster than the factory ammo.  However the rifles sights seem to be way high.  10" high at 50m on lowest rear sight notch. Having to estimate hold under to keep on paper only manage 2" group.

----------


## Makros

> At the range now.  Shooting the 44.40. Loads of 26 grains of Ar2207 shoot well faster than the factory ammo.  However the rifles sights seem to be way high.  10" high at 50m on lowest rear sight notch. Having to estimate hold under to keep on paper only manage 2" group.


Ok turns out it shots 100% fine when you align the front sight in the little notch at the bottom of the buckhorn sight  instead of between the top ears of the sight.  Having never used v notch open sights I feel a bit dumb now.  It's bang on at 50m got a .7" 3 shot group.  Small black square is quite small with open sights!

.

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## Jhon

> Ok turns out it shots 100% fine when you align the front sight in the little notch at the bottom of the buckhorn sight  instead of between the top ears of the sight.  Having never used v notch open sights I feel a bit dumb now.  It's bang on at 50m got a .7" 3 shot group.  Small black square is quite small with open sights!
> 
> .Attachment 179768


Excellent result Sir, Id be happy with that. Are these with the HawkeRiver 240s?

----------


## Makros

Yes the Hawkeriver 240grn flat points.

----------


## Makros

> Excellent results. Well done!
> 
> Out of interest, the little notch is what you sight the rifle in for, to point of aim at 50 / 75 metres, (as you have done) then at 100m use front sight to shoot in the middle of the half circle wings of your buckhorn sight, sort of like half an aperture sight. TRy that and see where your point of impact is - should be about right at 100m. IF you hold the front sight level with the top of the buckhorns, it should be good for around 200 metres. 
> You have to test shoot and see where each alignment of the sights is hitting, but that is the theory of a buckhorn sight.
> 
> On my Uberti 73 and my Rossi 92, I have replaced the blade front sights with a bead, and fabricated my own express rear open sights. Like an Egnlish big game rifle or a double rifle. These are excellent sights for these rifles, and are capable of suburb accuracy despite everything you read about them on the internet. (You can just see my rear sight in the picture above with the pipe cutter and target in it)
> 
> 
> I would recommend using a four inch diameter black bullseye for shooting targets, like in my picture above - or - if your front sight doesn't stand out clearly on against white paper - then use a white circle on black (or grey) background.


Hey AM,

That makes a lot of sense, I'll test that out next time I'm out. I'm much more familiar with the aperture style sights of my Longbranch .303 was interesting trying the buckhorns. Staggered by the precision able to be maintained even for a beginner! 

Yes I'll be looking to replace at least the rear sight of this rifle. It's quite a flimsy sight I feel and it either came or has been bent by previous owner and it doesn't provide enough pressure to comfortably hold the sight adjuster firm and it moves under recoil (seems to be quite soft steel to be honest). I set it up, what I think is backwards, so recoil doesn't drop it down (highest side closest to receiver). My theory being the recoil pushes the sight ladder into the sight against the stop rather than dropping down to the next notch. I'll have a look around to see what is available aftermarket for this rifle.

Agree on the bigger target. I was using a 2x2 red square but decided to finish off the shooting with the small alignment block to see what I was capable of. Happy with the result of course. Emptied the rest of the ammo I loaded popping off pine cones at 50m which was fun. Both myself and my partner were quite enamoured with the Uberti 1873 44-40 that's for sure.

----------


## akaroa1

A couple of days ago I re read all of this thread because I'm just about to start reloading for a 44-40 carbine again

Read it all with renewed interest
And now today I find that all of @Arthur McBride s input to the thread has vanished !
He clearly had a wealth of knowledge about hunting loads in the 44-40 and that was what I was looking for
I can easily work up a plinking load with trailboss and cast lead projectiles

I'm in the process of cross checking his 240 grain projectile load with 26 grains of 2207
The crimping info was interesting but I am loading for a single shot so no big deal for me

Anyone using that 26 grain 2207 load with 240 grain jacketed projectiles ?
I'm not expecting anything great accuracy wise because the bore is only a 2.5 / 10
It's a big strong action but I sill want it to be safe because its circa 1888

----------


## Jhon

> A couple of days ago I re read all of this thread because I'm just about to start reloading for a 44-40 carbine again
> 
> Read it all with renewed interest
> And now today I find that all of @Arthur McBride s input to the thread has vanished !
> He clearly had a wealth of knowledge about hunting loads in the 44-40 and that was what I was looking for
> I can easily work up a plinking load with trailboss and cast lead projectiles
> 
> I'm in the process of cross checking his 240 grain projectile load with 26 grains of 2207
> The crimping info was interesting but I am loading for a single shot so no big deal for me
> ...


How did that happen? I thought that posts were, like, permanent???

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## Jhon

In fact I checked and states Arthur has been banned. WTF? 

If that means all his historical posts have disappeared what a waste of info. And what do you have to do to get banned?

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## akaroa1

Ok I'm assuming he was Carlson Highway  and then Arthur McBride  also
Maybe he will come back in another  Phoenix like persona 

At least the info was there and his reasoning and @Makros validated it

Just waiting for the dies to arrive and I will test his loads myself and get another piece of history out there hunting again

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## Makros

> Ok I'm assuming he was Carlson Highway  and then Arthur McBride  also
> Maybe he will come back in another  Phoenix like persona 
> 
> At least the info was there and his reasoning and @Makros validated it
> 
> Just waiting for the dies to arrive and I will test his loads myself and get another piece of history out there hunting again


Yea won't be the first time in the last couple decades over a couple forum platforms CH has been banned. I'm not sure he'll care and I'm sure he'll be back.

I can only assume he got a bit carried away with the "Thought Police" thread which also disappeared.

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## akaroa1

> Yea won't be the first time in the last couple decades over a couple forum platforms CH has been banned. I'm not sure he'll care and I'm sure he'll be back.
> 
> I can only assume he got a bit carried away with the "Thought Police" thread which also disappeared.


I very rarely read the " Off Topic" threads and even then only for a giggle

I hope the dies arrive soon and I can load some 2207 behind my 240 XTPs

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## Got-ya

Thought this may be of interest.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ads?authuser=0

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## Got-ya

Look who I found, and relevant.

https://www.levergunscommunity.org/v...hp?f=1&t=82002

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## Bryan Austin

> Ha, sleepless night? Yes noted re twist. For 240gn projectiles I'm not sure there is an issue. Apparently all Rossi Pumas have a 1:30 twist. Have not measured that tho. What was the original twist for 44-40 do you know?


LOL, I forgot about this forum....yeap, it was a sleepless night!!

My understanding is 1:36" twist on the original 73's

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## Bryan Austin

> All modern 44/40's have ,429" barrels the twist rates are more diverse depending on manufacturer the from 1:36" to 1:20"
> Attachment 178742
> This is the one I have should should shoot in all of them it is a clone of the original the important measurement is from the crimp groove
> forward much longer will have feed issues.


Here is a bullet I had custom made by Accurate Molds. It is simply a modified Lyman 427098.

This photo shows both the 43-214A and a JSP crimped with a Redding Profile Crimp Die


LEFT: new 43-214A vs a dissected bullet that shows how the Redding Profile Crimp squeezes the case mouth into the soft lead. The forward driving band cast to .429" and resized to .428". for my application. Once the case mouth is crimped, this squeezes that driving band down to .422". 


43-214A


I used this bullet to group 30 consecutive smokeless powder shots inside a 4" circle at 100 yards at 1,350fps.



6 September 2021

225 yards

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## Micky Duck

must look back to see...but believe if you quote someones post it stays put,even when everything else goes under ban hammer..... MAYBE when see something you want to re reference endless times in future.quote it.... maybe.
pretty sure it was in this thread CH gave advice re duplex loading..... and it works really well. eg tiny bit of smokeless under black powder.

re trail boss loads....have a good look at the load data and take particular note of the pressures...in the .45/70 the TB loads have HIGHER pressure than 2208 etc....

----------


## Micky Duck

> Pipe cutter cutter needs teeth or some means to turn cases but is also used to put crimping groove in bullets.


yes this post #32 prooves the theory........

----------


## Bryan Austin

> yes this post #32 prooves the theory........


I made a case canular tool from a small pipe cutter just like Carlson Highway did...no "teeth" needed. The case is thin and easily manipulated. Here is a photo of a case I did a while back...it is the cartridge on the left.

Winchester depth seems to very.
mine (left), Winchester factory case component (center), Magtech (right)



Winchester factory High Velocity cartridge

----------


## rossi.45

reading this thread makes me want to get out my 92 Rossi, cast & load some lead bullets and take the wee carbine for a walk . .

----------


## Bryan Austin

> reading this thread makes me want to get out my 92 Rossi, cast & load some lead bullets and take the wee carbine for a walk . .


Absolutely,

Took my 73' to the range this past Wednesday and made these shots at 265 yards, replicating the 1866 shots by Swiss Marksmen during the 1866 Switzerland Trials using Winchester's Model of 1866 44 Henry. Ignore the ugly guy, if you saw him, you'd shoot too!!!


More details can be seen here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ad-development

----------


## Jhon

> Absolutely,
> 
> Took my 73' to the range this past Wednesday and made these shots at 265 yards, replicating the 1866 shots by Swiss Marksmen during the 1866 Switzerland Trials using Winchester's Model of 1866 44 Henry. Ignore the ugly guy, if you saw him, you'd shoot too!!!
> Attachment 194357Attachment 194358Attachment 194359
> 
> More details can be seen here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ad-development


Great to keep the thread alive! Reloder 7? I'll have to go back thru the posts, not a powder I remember being discussed. Good to know! And good shooting at 250 yards!!

I had my Rossi 92 out to chrono some Vihtavuori Tin Star N42C . Not sure it is made any more but was developed i understand as a smokeless analogue for BP for CAS. I had high hopes that a lightly compressed charge would overcome bullet recession issues. I got reasonable accuracy from the 20" barrel at 50m with cheap Hawke River coated 250gn FP projectiles from Delta Mike, certainly M.O.D. My max load had the bullet firmly seated on the powder to the point where if seating deeper was attempted the neck tension was unable to hold the compression thus springing the bullet back. Nevertheless, the 4th bullet in the tube did recess about 4mm. None of the prior loads did. Velocity for this load was early 1400s fps.  Giving quite a good shoulder thump. One case had a very slight split at case mouth after firing. No other pressure  signs.

 Most accurate was a couple of half grain steps back, with the bullet lightly touching the powder, heaviest crimp I could manage. Velocity in the upper mid 1300s. Plenty really for the task. No signs of recession with 4 in the tube.

I have acquired a mini tube cutter. Employing that is the next task.

One issue I have with the rifle is an in-consistent very light nick/ding  appearing in he edge of fired case mouths, from first firing. I can find no pit or roughness in the chamber at the throat, but I guess it must be there. Unless it is happening on extraction. I think I'm going to have to borrow a bore scope one of these days

----------


## Bryan Austin

> Great to keep the thread alive! Reloder 7? I'll have to go back thru the posts, not a powder I remember being discussed. Good to know! And good shooting at 250 yards!!
> 
> I had my Rossi 92 out to chrono some Vihtavuori Tin Star N42C . Not sure it is made any more but was developed i understand as a smokeless analogue for BP for CAS. I had high hopes that a lightly compressed charge would overcome bullet recession issues. I got reasonable accuracy from the 20" barrel at 50m with cheap Hawke River coated 250gn FP projectiles from Delta Mike, certainly M.O.D. My max load had the bullet firmly seated on the powder to the point where if seating deeper was attempted the neck tension was unable to hold the compression thus springing the bullet back. Nevertheless, the 4th bullet in the tube did recess about 4mm. None of the prior loads did. Velocity for this load was early 1400s fps.  Giving quite a good shoulder thump. One case had a very slight split at case mouth after firing. No other pressure  signs.
> 
>  Most accurate was a couple of half grain steps back, with the bullet lightly touching the powder, heaviest crimp I could manage. Velocity in the upper mid 1300s. Plenty really for the task. No signs of recession with 4 in the tube.
> 
> I have acquired a mini tube cutter. Employing that is the next task.
> 
> One issue I have with the rifle is an in-consistent very light nick/ding  appearing in he edge of fired case mouths, from first firing. I can find no pit or roughness in the chamber at the throat, but I guess it must be there. Unless it is happening on extraction. I think I'm going to have to borrow a bore scope one of these days


Great report, thanks!!!

I am unfamiliar with Tin Star. I have been told it is much like our Trail Boss powder. If so, Trail Boss is a fast burning pistol powder and creates a lot of pressure and yields little in velocity. For example, during my pressure tests, a case-full of powder, where the bullet sits on top of the powder without compressing or crushing the grains, was 9.3gr and came in at only 1,250fps at a whopping 15,128psi, still should be safe in the Winchester 92' types. The 1903 to 1942 44 High Velocity loads created about 18,000psi @ 1,570fps and was used in the 92'. You will more than likely never ever see any signs of high pressures with this case unless you far exceed those 44 WHV pressures.

My Reloder 7 loads yield less than 12,000psi and clock in at 1,351fps, safe for the 73'. Same load with a hard crimp creates 1,400fps and I am sure the pressures are higher but accuracy seems to be worse.

Underestimating the 44 Henry and 44-40 Range and Accuracy at The Battle Of The Little Big Horn
https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...little-bighorn

----------


## Bryan Austin

The Battle of Königgrätz

Say what? During the time between 14 June and 22 July 1866, the Prussians fought the Austrians. These battles were well observed by the Swiss. It was here that the Swiss decided that they were in need of modern breech-loading weapons.

The Swiss made a Decree that they would find and arm their sharpshooters and Army with breech-loading rifles on 20 July 1866.

During the 6th and 8th days of October, Winchester had already shipped the Model of 1866 to Switzerland for the Swiss Trials. On these two days the aforementioned targets were made.

On the 12th of October the Swiss government proposed an order for 8,000 repeaters for their best outfits but soon changed the proposal to between 90,000 and 110,000 repeaters to arm all of their soldiers. A condition to the contract would be that Winchester would also provide all of the tooling necessary for the 66's to be manufactured in Switzerland. Winchester could not or would not agree and offered some sort of counteroffer with the Henry rifle. The deal fell quiet and eventually Winchester backed off. I am unsure of the details.

The Report To The Commission For The Introduction Of The Breech-Loading Arms was dated Oct 1866 and published in Winchester's 1873 catalog. The information I posted above is not included in the report. The report talks about the Winchester Rifle - A. The Trajectory, B. The Precision and C. The Rapidity of Fire. 

Now you know the rest of the story.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...zerland-trials

----------


## 7mmwsm

> Absolutely,
> 
> Took my 73' to the range this past Wednesday and made these shots at 265 yards, replicating the 1866 shots by Swiss Marksmen during the 1866 Switzerland Trials using Winchester's Model of 1866 44 Henry. Ignore the ugly guy, if you saw him, you'd shoot too!!!
> Attachment 194357Attachment 194358Attachment 194359
> 
> More details can be seen here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ad-development


Pictures of people being used as targets doesn't do us any favours.

----------


## Jhon

> Pictures of people being used as targets doesn't do us any favours.


I'm sure I agree but if there is going to be a thread stoush over this please take it to PMs - this is not a thread to loose because posters got banned. Too much good info. Please.

----------


## Bryan Austin

No need for any PM's. The picture is of me. This is to show the actual accuracy of the arms potential when used by the American Indians at The Battle Of The Little Bighorn. Many of the ranges used were 200-250 yards.

Details can be seen here:
https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...little-bighorn

----------


## Jhon

Handsome!

----------


## Bryan Austin

> Handsome!


Liar...LOL!!!!!

----------


## Tedz50

> must look back to see...but believe if you quote someones post it stays put,even when everything else goes under ban hammer..... MAYBE when see something you want to re reference endless times in future.quote it.... maybe.
> pretty sure it was in this thread CH gave advice re duplex loading..... and it works really well. eg tiny bit of smokeless under black powder.
> 
> re trail boss loads....have a good look at the load data and take particular note of the pressures...in the .45/70 the TB loads have HIGHER pressure than 2208 etc....


 Mickey Duck Can you help me find pressure data on using Trailboss.I have 2 large canisters to use up and can not find pressure data anywhere..
Also data for 500 gr projectiles in a sharps using trailboss.

----------


## shooternz

> Mickey Duck Can you help me find pressure data on using Trailboss.I have 2 large canisters to use up and can not find pressure data anywhere..
> Also data for 500 gr projectiles in a sharps using trailboss.


The only 44/40 with Trail Boss listed by Hodgdon is with a 200 grain bullet Max load is 6.5 grains pressure is 11.900 psi

----------


## Tedz50

> The only 44/40 with Trail Boss listed by Hodgdon is with a 200 grain bullet Max load is 6.5 grains pressure is 11.900 psi


Perhaps the wrong thread but all data for 45/70 and trailboss seems to stop at 405 grain bullets and pressure data seems to be thin on ground.

----------


## NZ32

> Perhaps the wrong thread but all data for 45/70 and trailboss seems to stop at 405 grain bullets and pressure data seems to be thin on ground.


Don't bother using trailboss for 45/70, lots of guys find the bullets don't stabilize properly with it. Try 28-30gr of 2208 with a couple of felt wads to take up the case space.

----------


## Barefoot

> Don't bother using trailboss for 45/70, lots of guys find the bullets don't stabilize properly with it. Try 28-30gr of 2208 with a couple of felt wads to take up the case space.


Trail boss works fine with the lighter projectiles

----------


## NZ32

> Trail boss works fine with the lighter projectiles
> 
> Attachment 194488


True, not used any below 420gr. Its a big case to fill so not sure what it would be like if you used a big trailboss load

----------


## Barefoot

> True, not used any below 420gr. Its a big case to fill so not sure what it would be like if you used a big trailboss load


True, I still put a full load trailboss as listed on the hodgdon website and a wad on top. You don't need speed when you have a big lump of lead.

----------


## Micky Duck

> Mickey Duck Can you help me find pressure data on using Trailboss.I have 2 large canisters to use up and can not find pressure data anywhere..
> Also data for 500 gr projectiles in a sharps using trailboss.


ADI website......

----------


## Micky Duck

what surprised the hell out of me when comparing load data..the same projectile at same speed .....the likes of 2208   had way less pressure than trail boss....

and then I found out how much fun black powder was for the lighter/slower loads...and then with thanks to this thread tried duplex.....and that is even better. trailboss can sit in cabinet untill I find another use for it...

----------


## Bryan Austin

In general, the 200gr 44-40 at 1,325fps and the 405gr 45-70 at normal velocities have nearly identical trajectories to 200 yards.

----------


## Jhon

> In general, the 200gr 44-40 at 1,325fps and the 405gr 45-70 at normal velocities have nearly identical trajectories to 200 yards.


I know which one I'd rather pull the trigger on lol

----------


## JohnDuxbury

> Great to keep the thread alive! Reloder 7? I'll have to go back thru the posts, not a powder I remember being discussed. Good to know! And good shooting at 250 yards!!
> 
> I had my Rossi 92 out to chrono some Vihtavuori Tin Star N42C . Not sure it is made any more but was developed i understand as a smokeless analogue for BP for CAS. I had high hopes that a lightly compressed charge would overcome bullet recession issues. I got reasonable accuracy from the 20" barrel at 50m with cheap Hawke River coated 250gn FP projectiles from Delta Mike, certainly M.O.D. My max load had the bullet firmly seated on the powder to the point where if seating deeper was attempted the neck tension was unable to hold the compression thus springing the bullet back. Nevertheless, the 4th bullet in the tube did recess about 4mm. None of the prior loads did. Velocity for this load was early 1400s fps.  Giving quite a good shoulder thump. One case had a very slight split at case mouth after firing. No other pressure  signs.
> 
>  Most accurate was a couple of half grain steps back, with the bullet lightly touching the powder, heaviest crimp I could manage. Velocity in the upper mid 1300s. Plenty really for the task. No signs of recession with 4 in the tube.
> 
> I have acquired a mini tube cutter. Employing that is the next task.
> 
> One issue I have with the rifle is an in-consistent very light nick/ding  appearing in he edge of fired case mouths, from first firing. I can find no pit or roughness in the chamber at the throat, but I guess it must be there. Unless it is happening on extraction. I think I'm going to have to borrow a bore scope one of these days



Jhon, the nick in the case mouth is caused by your extractor. Which will be strong enough to make that as the case gets drawn out and the mouth of the case gets drawn free of the chamber, it gets that nick in the thin brass. You might look at weakening the extractor spring a touch, which will stop that. Otherwise, just extract slowly and hold the case down until its pulled back far enough you can handle it out. 

Reloader 7 will make the same bulk smokeless load as AR2207 / H4198  with 26 grains. And both give excellent velocity (and pressures good for '73 rifles.)

My .44-40 is now the cheapest rifle to feed - brass lasts a long time, with 9 grains of AP70N per shell, powder is ridiculously cheap, and I make my lead bullets. I am paying for primers really. Now that I can make a crimp under the bullet to hold my projectiles in place over smaller smokeless loads with the pipe cutter, the last bulwark was overcome.

----------


## JohnDuxbury

> what surprised the hell out of me when comparing load data..the same projectile at same speed .....the likes of 2208   had way less pressure than trail boss....
> 
> and then I found out how much fun black powder was for the lighter/slower loads...and then with thanks to this thread tried duplex.....and that is even better. trailboss can sit in cabinet untill I find another use for it...


I have most of a jug of it here I have not touched for years. I dont use Trailboss for anything anymore. Its only good for gallery loads for CAS, which is what it was invented for obviously, but it does it with quite high pressures. To make light loads or even cheap full power loads you are better off with Unique, Universal, or AP70N. These were made for light centrefire loads and have worked well for decades. For examples, light "small game"" loads in big cartridges are ridiculously accurate. With the .308, 30/06 and AP70 and loads at around 1800fps I am shooting MOA or less groups, and the same with the .223 as well.

But if you have a .44-40 then black powder is the way to go, I would be loading some up now, but I cant find any AR2205 or any black powder around to make my duplex loads. So I am just using smokeless 2207 loads. For some reason its the only powder you can still find at the shops during this shortage, so thats fine with me.

----------


## Micky Duck

stop being lazy...roll your own BP ....you know you want to LOL....
must have another look at the two part containers of shotgun powder and see what they are....

----------

