# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  Help design the NZHS Forum Wildcat - Part 1 - Action length

## Spanners

Alrighty - have come up with the idea to design a wildcat cartridge via the forum here
If it all works out, I'll get a reamer made and see how it goes, others will be able to borrow the reamer also.
It will become the .XXX NZHS or XXX Thingamahugit
Doesnt have to be a million fps with 500gr of powder based on 20mm case - something thats more practical - there are more than enough superboomers around
Something at the end of the day that is easy to form cases for , buy projectiles etc, and is usable for the majority of NZ hunting - sub 200m?

So will do it in stages with max length for action, caliber, speed, case, name etc

My vote is for something on a short action - max 223 length (SA or AR/SKS) or  max of 308 length (SA)

What do the rest of you think? give it a few days then move onto next stage once we have a clear winner.
You can choose more than one action size

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## veitnamcam

Dammit was going to say 50BMG/17
Your going to be making 30cal expanding subsonic pills right? 223 up to 30?

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## Spanners

223 up to 30 is a longish Whisper pretty much - and I'm still waiting on parts for my dies

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## lostlegend

how about something built around a wssm case with a big pill?  there is a guy in the states that makes a 358 WSSM for an AR platform, i've made a .338WSSM from a .25WSSM case it works quite well and they use a short action.

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## Spanners

I have bits for WSSM in an AR at home waiting  :Have A Nice Day: 

Vote and we'll see what the outcome is

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## P38

Shit where do you start?

When it comes to wild catting it all seems to have been done before.

I voted super short & short action..... or should that be Short & Medium action. 

I got a bunch of 284 brass just begging to be necked down ..... but thats already been done before too.

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## Makros

Most of it has been done before.
However I like the idea of improving either .338 Fed or .338-06 to straight walled case and short abrupt shoulder - no need for such a taper and sloped shoulder with such a large pill on the end.

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## crnkin

If its going to be practical, it rules out a lot of the above ideas.

Basically, I would start with a bullet weight (relating to intended use), then caliber (relating to desired SD), then velocity (for range), then grains of powder (to suit velocity), then case (to suit grains), then action length (to suit case), then your done.

Just my opinion, but I think your doing it backwards, therefore I voted long action, so that there is no limit introduced that will interfere with good choices down the track

Chris

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## Kiwi Greg

I've already done it after Gavins helpful suggestion  :Grin: 

Here it is the 416-223 Terminator beside it's parent case, sporting a 410 grain pill  :Thumbsup:

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## P38

Spot on Chris

Reverse engineer it.

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## 7mmsaum

What a great idea Spanners, 
                                        but could be a bit like building an AC Cobra one bolt at a time without the complete plan or picture in your head.


 We know a 308 case is roughly 2.015 inches in length, a saum is 2.035, and a wsm is 2.100, and that they all have enough capacity for under 300yrds. 
So with that in mind would you like a cartridge/caliber combination that has plenty of cool factor (25 wssm using a 115 BT or VLD) or do you want a bit more grunt, say a 150g Corelokt at 3000fps?

There is one constant to your plan and thats the desired end result..... the projectile must kill the deer, so with that in mind what projectile would you like to use to do it????

RPG ?  :Thumbsup:

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## 7mmsaum

Can we work outside the square with the rifle design itself??

Perhaps A light alloy receiver, with a Titanium sleeve, and light Ti or ss bolt, 
(Or a standard Tikka T3 stock and action as the donor rifle) modded with a floating Savage type bolt head for different case head dia, ensuring only a bolt head and barrel change when changing calibers, with a carbon fibre stock, and/or a XLR type chassis as an option. A barrel spanner can be supplied with the Barrel.

The design should suit the variety of all our applications, and light weight. And some of the chamberings we dream up can utilise the std T3 barrel with just a ream out.

Then all the forum guys that get one made can enjoy their rifle in whatever chambering/caliber thay want, whatever barrel profile and fluting type, if they dont like the power level then a "swap" can be made with another forum member, only the bolt head, barrel and brass need be sent in the post, easy and quite cost effective.

The price conscious would start with a std Tikka, pay for the bolt mod (and if the right cartridge) just a ream out for the new case design and barrel removable feature.

The non price conscious could have a multitude of bolt faces and barrels in their safe(s).

Not too hard to have a 223, 308, and a saum bolt face, and any others we dream up, over a period of time im sure barrels and bolt heads would do some courier miles as we all check out the merits of one caliber/ chambering over another.

Easy to send a T3 off to the designated gunsmith, have him mod the bolt to a floating replaceable bolt head, fit a barrel to be owner removable , standardise each calibre bolt head to headspace on its respective barrel.

I could get bored with a 204 then pick up a 6BR, or a 223AI, get sick of that and try a 223wssm, get tired of that, try a 25wssm, go 243 wssm, or make a 308 wssm, then plug away with a "anything I want"

Its only a thought.........


I know I would order at least one rifle set up this way.

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## Spanners

> What a great idea Spanners, 
>                                         but could be a bit like building an AC Cobra one bolt at a time without the complete plan or picture in your head.
> 
> p:


But you have a picture in your head - AC Cobra
The whole point is you're not building a gun around a case, you're building a case around your 1st limiting factor - action length.

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## Normie

How about a shortened and improved 6.5-284 so it fits in a short action properly?

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## LJP

> How about a shortened and improved 6.5-284 so it fits in a short action properly?


Hmmm a slightly porky 6.5x47....sounds interesting  :Cool:

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## baldbob

then we may as well go .260ai and save tedious case shortning then forming. internet experts like crankn will struggle...

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## distant stalker

I have a great idea, neck down a 308 to 7mm so you can make use of the far better selection and performance of 7mm pills,that would be the best option out there im sure of it  :Psmiley:

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## madjon_

> I have a great idea, neck down a 308 to 7mm so you can make use of the far better selection and performance of 7mm pills,that would be the best option out there im sure of it


works well with 2 sugars and a quiche :Psmiley:

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## DAF

> But you have a picture in your head - AC Cobra
> The whole point is you're not building a gun around a case, you're building a case around your 1st limiting factor - action length.


I chose the long action because of this as you should be able to mag feed just about most cartridges using a long eg. seating bullets right out or like the WSM doesn't seem to feed so nice in a short  :Wink:

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## DAF

> Hmmm a slightly porky 6.5x47....sounds interesting


sounds like one of these 6.5wssm

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## 7mmsaum

> But you have a picture in your head - AC Cobra
> The whole point is you're not building a gun around a case, you're building a case around your 1st limiting factor - action length.


Ok I see what you are after, and im with DAF, i should have voted for the long action. Tis a good thread

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## distant stalker

> works well with 2 sugars and a quiche


dont forget the froth (for the soy chai latte)

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## distant stalker

I voted long because you just know you are going to eventually want to try and shoot further with it eventually in which case you will want longer slippery pills and dont want to have to fill your case with lead instead of powder

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## Normie

[QUOTE=DAF;9658]sounds like one of these 6.5wssm
Attachment 861[/QUOTE

Slightly less porky and a bit taller I think but essentially what LJP said.

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## shaka

im thinking 284 short improved so it fits in a short action sako . ops thats what im doing :Thumbsup:

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## Spanners

Get the caliber and case out of your heads for now.. action 1st, then move from there.
Might end up with a 40cal in a 284 case on a supershort action for all we know yet.

Ride the wave....

will give it a couple more days and move onto the next stage.

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## Spanners

> I voted long because you just know you are going to eventually want to try and shoot further with it eventually in which case you will want longer slippery pills and dont want to have to fill your case with lead instead of powder


Thats not the point of the whole exercise though.. if it was we;d be at 338 LM improved or 338/408 or something already.
Might end up with a short 45/70 or maybe a AI 6mm on a 204 case...??

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## Normie

Are you going to establish a use for the calibre/rifle?

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## Mossie

> ............. and is usable for the majority of NZ hunting - sub 200m?


 Did anyone read this?

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## Wildman

> Most of it has been done before.
> However I like the idea of improving either .338 Fed or .338-06 to straight walled case and short abrupt shoulder - no need for such a taper and sloped shoulder with such a large pill on the end.


.338 -284?

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## gimp

Something you can buy in a box from the shop

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## crzyman

700 NE AI for kicks and giggles

The thought of a 1000 grainer traveling at 2500fps makes me horny

Just run the numbers, 620 ft/lbs of recoil from a 7lb rifle...... make it a Tikka of course

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## Wildman

> Something you can buy in a box from the shop


Dont worry we wont make you get one.

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## baldbob

Neck down a 308 to .277... be a perfect inside 500m allround NZ gun and different... even with all the gay pills you cant get for it

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## sniper80

How about a 7.62x39 necked down to 7mm (or even down to 6.5mm) It would be great for anything inside 200m and fit in your standard AK/AR. 

By the way I voted long action, coz it gives us options.

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## crzyman

> How about a 7.62x39 necked down to 7mm (or even down to 6.5mm) It would be great for anything inside 200m and fit in your standard AK/AR. 
> 
> By the way I voted long action, coz it gives us options.


Gunworks have a reamer for 7.62x6.5 and you can get lapua brass.

Just wondering what your trying to do, reinvent the wheel?? Next the forum will be making muzzle brakes :Pacman:

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## Wildman

25x39

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## Spanners

6.5x7.62 is pretty much a Grendel

Its more a exercise of majority rules rather than reinventing the wheel, to see what we come out with, and if its any different, the I'll get a reamer made and have a play.

i cant believe how many people are missing the point haha  :Grin:

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## 7mmsaum

> 6.5x7.62 is pretty much a Grendel
> 
> Its more a exercise of majority rules rather than reinventing the wheel, to see what we come out with, and if its any different, the I'll get a reamer made and have a play.
> 
> i cant believe how many people are missing the point haha


To be unconditionally gregarious is a luxury but Hunters are no exception to a quirk of humanity, we can be individualistic by our actions, and our nature.

Because of that I doubt many are keen to put their best ideas out there, as thats their intellectual asset.

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## Spanners

> To be unconditionally gregarious is a luxury but Hunters are no exception to a quirk of humanity, we can be individualistic by our actions, and our nature.
> 
> Because of that I doubt many are keen to put their best ideas out there, as thats their intellectual asset.


Still on wrong side of the road I think LOL

eg
Poll 1 Winner = Short action
Poll 2 Winner = 35 cal
Poll 3 Winner = 303 case
So you'd end up with a 303 modified enough to fit short action, with a 35 cal pill jammed in it and squared up and Ackley improved - or something

or if it went 
Poll 1 Winner = Short action
Poll 2 Winner = 6mm
Poll 3 Winner = 30 Rem case
You'd end up with a 30 Rem modified enough to fit short action with 6mm VLDs in it Ackley improved?


If everyone thinks its a waste of time I'll click the delete button......

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## 7mmsaum

Hey Spanners I dont think its a waste of time, but my little brain is sure on the wrong side of the road.

School me now................

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## distant stalker

> Thats not the point of the whole exercise though.. if it was we;d be at 338 LM improved or 338/408 or something already.
> Might end up with a short 45/70 or maybe a AI 6mm on a 204 case...??


I was not suggesting something so overpwered as that but I am somebody who is never pleased with mach 1 of a design hence wanting to keep options open, if I were to build a 2-300m rifle eventually I would want it to be more eficcient, be able to shoot them in the eye at 300m and even do it on a windy day (but i would still shoot them in the shoulder  :Psmiley: ). I like the idea of a short efficient case that will deliver all the energy you need for within the ranges you have suggested but would not want to be limited by action length and I wouldnt care if the end result was an action that was longer than the round needed (as seen in tikkas) I would go long or perhaps medium but definitely not short, you want to have good performance within 2-300 but that doesnt mean you cant ask for amazing perforamance to give spectacular results in both accuracy and terminal performance within those ranges firing heavy for calibre pills, doesnt need to be a marginal cartridge. 
I like using the 223 for killing things but its not my ideal for an across the board 2-300m rifle, what happens when you want to snot a stroppy boar you stumble across in the ferns while out looking for a deer or a bull tahr you cant quite close the gap on and is about to wander into a spot you wont be able to recover him from (this is what I consider everyday type hunting) and dont have an ideal shot?
I do however like the 6mm pills and have been wanting a 6br to fill a gap in the gun cabinet but would not consider this as something to fit the bill you have described
I think something in 6-7mm firing long pills with a square shouldered case would be cool so medium would probably fit the bill to deliver the performance but why handicap yourself if you are going to build on a tika (as suggested, which would be good for the AI designs) where you could just buy a medium magazine if the round ended up shorter

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## Cyclist

bajeezus its obvious: a 6.6/06 Beastman

(projectiles may be a little hard to come by - better order up some forming dies at the same time :-)

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## 7mmsaum

Can we think outside the square with the case material?

It seems brass no longer needs to be the the weak link.....

http://www.vigilancerifles.com/338yellowbastard.html

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## Spanners

No

lol

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## outdoorlad

Long action

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## crnkin

> then we may as well go .260ai and save tedious case shortning then forming. internet experts like crankn will struggle...


I always struggle, especially around you...

Are we talking shooting or in bed?

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## sneeze

> I always struggle,


Thats the way it seems     





Add
( 3 x some sort of smily to say Im taking the piss here but with the choice of thousands I have no idea what any of them actually mean)

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## crnkin

Adams just hiding behind his keyboard

Im always on top anyway

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## gimp

Oh it's a gay joke

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## 7mmsaum

Can we use Hornady Superperformance powder?

This is a seriously interesting read ..........http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/...technology.pdf

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## Spanners

Can use any powder

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## Terminator

If your looking at something in a short action to stop most things in there tracks up close that is short and very handy, what about a 416-300 saum shooting a 300gr-350gr Barnes TX

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## Kiwi Greg

> If your looking at something in a short action to stop most things in there tracks up close that is short and very handy, what about a 416-300 saum shooting a 300gr-350gr Barnes TX


That would need a great suppressor or muzzle brake........recoil  :Grin:

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## 7mmsaum

> If your looking at something in a short action to stop most things in there tracks up close that is short and very handy, what about a 416-300 saum shooting a 300gr-350gr Barnes TX



300 saum with 208 amax would be ok in a SA

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## Smiddy

338 wsm with 200gr sst would be my pick 
20inch suppressed

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Kiwi Greg

> 338 wsm with 200gr sst would be my pick 
> 20inch suppressed
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Built one years ago, identical performance to a 338 WM I had at the same time  :Have A Nice Day:

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## timattalon

I like the idea of basing it on easy to get donor brass such as 308. But I have a thing for double rifles so a slight taper with little or no neck. Something that uses lotsa lead and goes BOOOM instead of Bang.....Neck the case out instead of in, go slower (ish) and bigger with the projectile. Think 45/08 (or 45 /06 for that matter) Or 9mm x39 for shits and giggles........

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## MSL

I had a 338wsm that blew the guts out of a McMillan stock. 250gr Sierra's at 2680fps

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## Matt2308

I like the sound of the 338WSM and have been thinking about building one, should go well on a short barrel (maybe 18") and be an efficient and easy to make round. Would be an awesome bush gun for the roar and still be capable of some down range punch too!

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## 199p

Could be intresting build. Was thinking of doing 338-375r as i have a xtra magnum action and stock. Run the 225 ab

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