# Hunting > Hunting >  WTF. B  FA  LEFT SOON.

## inozz

Just found this on FB deer stalking group..  Is this for real?  NZ has been taken over by a green dictatorship with no brains or brakes. Anybody know what is happening if this is correct.?

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## 40mm

The green party is an introduced species.

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## Rushy

Not good.

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## Tentman

Hmm - I feel some OIA requests coming on, this needs smoking out . . . .

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## Snowgrass

Rest of the item not shown in the above screenshot...


6. The Department is working with Ngati Porou and Te Whanau a Apanui to co-design
the project in the Raukumara.

7. Given that the distribution of deer and their impacts are not uniform across the country,
a multi-tiered regional based approach working with iwi, landowners, local recreational
hunters and the commercial deer industries such as wild animal recovery operators
and hunting guides will be required.
This allows each plan to be developed for the particular circumstances of each region
and identify the resources to deliver the outcomes required ecologically, culturally and
socially at that place.

8. There are two main themes for consideration which will likely require different
approaches in developing the plans forward;

a) The front country The build-up of wild deer herds on farm/forest margins in
lowlands and front country around bush remnants, covenants and reserves has
been consistently identified as a key issue. Landlocked small reserves and
private forest remnants are considered to have become safe havens for deer
breeding, with ready access to adjacent pasture.
Developing plans for these areas will require a collaborative approach with
Treaty Partners, landowners, regional councils and other stakeholders.
Access for hunters into many of these areas has often been identified as a key
issue to work upon in Stage 2 of the project.

b) The back country On public conservation land in the large forest and national
parks, monitoring of both deer populations and their ecosystem impacts has not
been prioritised in recent years. This absence of data on population trends, size
and ecological impacts reduces the quality of discussions between stakeholders,
and hampers good decision making around solutions in our large National and
Forest Parks in many parts of the country.
Developing cost-effective techniques to assess changes in ungulate abundance
and ecosystem health will be a priority for stage two of the project.
Developing plans for the backcountry areas in each region would be undertaken
with our Treaty Partners and in collaboration with other stakeholders.

9. The Department has no plans to fence small pockets of bush as a solution to the deer
concerns currently identified as that approach would prove costly and ineffective in
achieving any lasting outcomes.

10. A report of the findings will be made available at the end of June and this will form the
basis for the next stage of the project to develop the preferred response. Establishing
the preferred approach is due to be completed by the end of the year.
Section 4 Conservation Act

11. This issue is important to iwi. Their perspectives cover the full spectrum of the
positives and negative values of deer. It will be important to work with each Treaty
Partner to develop specific plans for their rohe or takiwā.
Conclusion

12. We are looking for solutions that will materially improve how deer are managed in the
New Zealand landscape to achieve better ecological, cultural, recreational and
economic outcomes.

13. Front country and backcountry will require different approaches to developing plans in
Stage 2 of the project.

14. The Raukumara project will be a valuable pilot for co-designing large scale forest
restoration projects with Treaty Partners.

15. This work is critical in improving ecosystems and preventing the deer from expanding
into areas such as Northland that remains free of wild deer.


https://ftp.doc.govt.nz/public/folde...lic-papers.pdf 
Thanks @cambo for the link in the other thread.

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## Mohawk .308

Working with Iwi, what a joke. More likely paying Iwi large sums of money to poison and slaughter deer on their land.

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## Cigar

The current minister is hopefully gone in a few weeks, but that probably won't stop this.
*IF* there is actually an increase in abundance, not letting us hunt in the first round of level 3 didn't help, and is their fault

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## Kopua Cowboy

"The department has no plans" usually means they have already paid the guy who is going to do the work... In my experience.

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## Mohawk .308

How can they justify giving these clowns $53 million when the country is heading into a major recession.

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## Steve123

> Working with Iwi, what a joke. More likely paying Iwi large sums of money to poison and slaughter deer on their land.


That's exactly what's happening with the Raukumara's.

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## Mohawk .308

> That's exactly what's happening with the Raukumara's.


It’s happened with Tuwharetoas Lake Taupo Forest too.

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## trapperjohn

I'll clean out the Raukumaras for $40,000,000.
I just need a cash advance of $10,000,000 to get started. :Wink:   any other bidders.

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## Mohawk .308

It’s a f*ckn disgrace what Iwi are stooping too. I thought Maori were all about the whenua and living off the land.

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## Cigar

The perfect solution to deer overabundance?

Semi-automatic rifles!

 :Psmiley:

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## Steve123

> It’s happened with Tuwharetoas Lake Taupo Forest too.


I don't why they want to turn the clock back to a pre-human massive Avery.Hopefully the Greens will be out this election but DOC is still stacked with twig and tweet fanatics.

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## Steve123

> It’s a f*ckn disgrace what Iwi are stooping too. I thought Maori were all about the whenua and living off the land.


The money doesn't filter down to the ones who live off the land.

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## imaca

If all the things the gubbermint should be spending our money on now , I struggle to see how this even gets a mention

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## Mohawk .308

Hopefully Shaw’s latest cock up will see the greens out of contention, I kind of which the election was sooner rather than later now...just want the muppets gone

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## Micky Duck

#11   YOU FELLAS MISSING THE POINT HERE......ALL partners..that means what it says...it wasnt just fellas with brown bums who signed the treaty it was a treaty for ALL K1K1s   so any approach that just listens to brown bums is rascist plain and simple and needs to be called out as such.

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## Micky Duck

and I use the term brown bums as maori means native...and Im native....yet not considered in same category.

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## Mohawk .308

> #11   YOU FELLAS MISSING THE POINT HERE......ALL partners..that means what it says...it wasnt just fellas with brown bums who signed the treaty it was a treaty for ALL K1K1s   so any approach that just listens to brown bums is rascist plain and simple and needs to be called out as such.


Apparently only white fellas can be classed as being racist

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## deer243

> Hopefully Shaw’s latest cock up will see the greens out of contention, I kind of which the election was sooner rather than later now...just want the muppets gone


the end is near....the greens wont go, and even if labour win without needing them they taking them in for the next 4 years and Sage will remain in charge of DOC...... from a good source

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## Mohawk .308

> the end is near....the greens wont go, and even if labour win without needing them they taking them in for the next 4 years and Sage will remain in charge of DOC...... from a good source


If labour can’t govern alone and the greens are out of contention, how do you think this scenario will play out?

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## Finnwolf

> the end is near....the greens wont go, and even if labour win without needing them they taking them in for the next 4 years and Sage will remain in charge of DOC...... from a good source


That made my day.... :Zomg: 

I’m off to bed now my days been ruined. :Oh Noes:

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## Cigar

> the end is near....the greens wont go, and even if labour win without needing them they taking them in for the next 4 years and Sage will remain in charge of DOC...... from a good source


Why does your source think we have a four year term?

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## Russian 22.

If true its hardly surprising.

What's surprising is the fact that hunters never effectively pre empted such plan by lobbying for a management plan that's favourable to us.

We have the tahr plan which they religiously use a crutch. Maybe stronger protections under the last national govt would have been a good idea.

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## inozz

> That made my day....
> 
> I’m off to bed now my days been ruined.


Crikey i know this is upsetting and disturbing, but sorry anyway mate. I think this ruins everyones day.

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## Flyblown

An alternative view... Not looking to upset any of you... But...

Maybe some of you fellas havent been hanging around the front country in the Central North Island much recently?

If you have, and you are connected in any way to the rural folk that farm here, then you would know that the deer numbers are a massive problem. Red deer in particular are totally out of control and have far too many small forest blocks in which to hide, landlocked by private land. Hence access to recreational hunters is only possible on a relationship-with-farmer basis. 

i.e. These small reserves dont appear on any DOC maps for a hunting permit as you need an access agreement with the private landowners that surround it.

Ive sat on top of a local high point and watched the chopper bombing the bush about 1,500m away with 1080. November 2017. Didnt make the blindest bit of difference to deer numbers in that area. String me up or stretch me on the rack, just saying it like it is. Didnt touch the pigs either.

Theres fuck all possums though.

I have five or six properties that I visit regularly, a couple several times a year, the others probably once a year. Honestly these days I cant really call myself a hunter. All I need to do is move my creaking middle-aged body a relatively short distance from my Hilux or quad to a half decent spot the glass from, and Ill see deer. At all times of the day. Its gotten so easy that Ive started to completely change my method of targeting deer to try and get more out of it on a personal level.

This is not good. It is the kind of blatant in your face ungulate proliferation that causes big problems for our primary producers and the health of our forests. I challenge you to go into these smaller native blocks and walk around under the canopy and see for yourselves. There is absolutely diddly squat palatable vegetation left within reach of a mature red deer standing up on its rear legs. 

In the document that was posted there is reference to making it easier for hunters to access private land, and these landlocked DOC owned reserves that have no public access. This is the key. And Im telling you shiny bum city types that really you just need to get out more. Drive a sensible vehicle, wear sensible clothes, be polite and open-minded, ask the right questions. Try and know a little bit about what these guys do and the challenges they face. You will be amazed what opportunities will open up for you, if you put in the hard yards. I know half a dozen cockies with big farms, four with multiple properties in a particular area, who rely upon visiting hunters to do their deer control for them as they either have no interest, or no time. There was a comment on another thread a couple of days ago that farmers are charging for this kind of hunting. Maybe on some properties that is true, especially where the farmer has put money into hunter accommodation and so on, e.g. Riversdale. But in the kind of areas that I go, Ive never been asked for a single cent contribution, the understanding is that it is my time, my ammunition, my deer to take home with me. But there is a really important aspect to this that you need to remember.

Have something that you can give back. Like if there is a hut for you to stay in, then make a trip there specifically to do some hut maintenance. Rehang some gates. Straighten and re-fix some batons - like not two dozen of them but a whole days worth of basic fence maintenance. Take a bag of wire tensioners and staples and an EeziPull and fix up a couple of long run slack fences. Cut some firewood, some scrub, especially around access points or buildings and places where its really obvious and appreciated. Not long ago, I dug out the dog shit from under a 12 dog kennel - about 15 years worth I reckon - pressure washed the kennels, rodent proofed the dog food shed, set 10 drainpipe style bait stations, installed simple solar powered LED strip lighting for feeding the dogs at night in winter, and built two wool insulated timber kennels for young pig dogs. Two easy days of work for free come-as-you-are deer hunting. 

Anyway, Ive gotten a bit off topic but the point is that there are way too many deer out there, but you all have more opportunities to get some of them if you know how. And I encourage you to do just that. Whinging about deer control from a distance is in my view completely missing the point. Especially all the way from WA. No offence intended mate.

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## Steve123

> the end is near....the greens wont go, and even if labour win without needing them they taking them in for the next 4 years and Sage will remain in charge of DOC...... from a good source


I kind of agree. Much like the blue assholes need act, the red assholes need the greens. It's easier to blame unpoular policy on a small coalition partner. But if the red assholes win with a clear majority it will be interesting to see if they do include the watermelons. The whole worldwide shift to Police States is worrying. Hearing how common land is getting referred to as either  Crown or Conservation estate also worries me. The removal of freedom of speech worries me as well but the most worrying thing is there's not really any better choices.

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## Flyblown

This isn’t a political issue, yet you fellas are intent on turning it into one.

The majority of the farmers want deer numbers reduced. I’d say the significant majority of them don’t vote for Labour, and definitely not the Greens.

Go out, ask them, talk about it with the people that count, not disaffected internet buddies.

There will always be deer out there.

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## Tommy

> This isn’t a political issue, yet you fellas are intent on turning it into one.
> 
> The majority of the farmers want deer numbers reduced. I’d say the significant majority of them don’t vote for Labour, and definitely not the Greens.
> 
> Go out, ask them, talk about it with the people that count, not disaffected internet buddies.
> 
> There will always be deer out there.


Always, is a long long time.

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## craigc

I reckon a number of you are kidding your selves, theres no political agenda here, the facts speak for them selves; theres miles too many deer in NZ. The collapse of the recovery industry and a number of other factors have influenced that. 
Im convinced that a Minister of Conservation, regardless of what party theyre from would support the reduction of Tahr, Deer and other pests. The fact that Ms Sage has expressed a personal dislike fir them, in the past is merely coincidental. 
1080 is an excellent example of this. No matter what party has been in government its use has been consistent.

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## Dago

> Working with Iwi, what a joke. More likely paying Iwi large sums of money to poison and slaughter deer on their land.


KFC and Ten Guitars CD time.

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## Ben Waimata

I've seen the damage even small population of red deer can do, I've lost well over $100,000 worth of tree plantings over the last couple of years.

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## Yesmate

> I've seen the damage even small population of red deer can do, I've lost well over $100,000 worth of tree plantings over the last couple of years.


you need to get the rifle out more often.id be peeling them out or getting people in to peel them out real fast if those numbers were happening to me, why are you letting this slide?

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## Finnwolf

> I've seen the damage even small population of red deer can do, I've lost well over $100,000 worth of tree plantings over the last couple of years.



Pay for me to come up there for a while cos I’m always where there are no deer. (Mostly)

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## joelhenton

I've worked in many North Island public conservation land forests over the years, there aren't many that don't show significant ungulate browse. Most have seriously browsed out understoreys, you need to go for a walk in an area that doesn't have ungulate species to really see the difference. You won't see many palatable seedlings and saplings on the ground.

Joel

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## Ben Waimata

> you need to get the rifle out more often.id be peeling them out or getting people in to peel them out real fast if those numbers were happening to me, why are you letting this slide?


Same old farm problem, periodic problems followed by long time of no deer or goats. Don't notice the damage until it's been going on a few weeks. 10-15 reds at a time, or 20-30 goats, this is why I got E cat. Every time I've had friends in for a shoot we've never seen a single deer, and I've spent many many hours looking for them. Usually only see them when not expecting to and no rifle. We're only a small farm in a fairly big roam range of the deer, and the goats are usually on the beach hills about 5km away.


HBRC Biosecurity guys say the feral deer population is at record high.

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## Allizdog

Lol. Must be different to the south island then, with some of the thick shit I've found myself in while trying to avoid it. @joelhenton

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## Finnwolf

> Lol. Must be different to the south island then, with some of the thick shit I've found myself in while trying to avoid it.


I watched Hunting Aotearoa a couple of night back and saw the bush they were in and thought wow, theres deer in there? And likewise the Red Stag program- really open bush.
Both in the South Island -  but not where I hunt!

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## Allizdog

Yeah I hear ya. The places I usually hunt you are better off watching the bush edges or walking up one of the rivers which has paid off.

But I learnt that the hard way. :Omg:

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## Friwi

The mamaku would be probably invalided by deer, as the access points are not great .
Targeting the females would greatly reduce the numbers.
The confinement did not help this year.

Was there not a program in place where farmers would indicate that they needed some deer culled on their property and would be put in liaison with hunters looking to shoot deer?

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## joelhenton

> Lol. Must be different to the south island then, with some of the thick shit I've found myself in while trying to avoid it. @joelhenton


Hi Allizdog, 

There is plenty of thick bush all over New Zealand, but remember that thick bush doesn't necessarily mean it's all comprised of palatable plant species. Deer are quite selective browsers that concentrate their feeding on plant species that are palatable, the likes of broadleaf (Griselinia littoralis), Coprosma grandifolia, lancewood (Pseudopanax crassifolius), kamahi (Weinmannia racemosa), mahoe (Melicytus ramiflorus), putaputaweta (Carpodetus serratus), five finger (Pseudopanax arboreus), to name but a few of the woody trees. And they will consume these at all stages of the plants life, seedlings, saplings, and mature trees (certainly up to browsing height). The palatables become fewer, while the non-palatables increase in abundance. Those open areas of bush sure are nice to walk around in, but it's not the signs of a healthy forest.

Regards, 
Joel

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## Ben Waimata

> Hi Allizdog, 
> 
> There is plenty of thick bush all over New Zealand, but remember that thick bush doesn't necessarily mean it's all comprised of palatable plant species. Deer are quite selective browsers that concentrate their feeding on plant species that are palatable, the likes of broadleaf (Griselinia littoralis), Coprosma grandifolia, lancewood (Pseudopanax crassifolius), kamahi (Weinmannia racemosa), mahoe (Melicytus ramiflorus), putaputaweta (Carpodetus serrated), five finger (Pseudopanax arboretum), to name but a few of the woody trees. And they will consume these at all stages of the plants life, seedlings, saplings, and mature trees. The palatables become fewer, while the non-palatables increase in abundance.
> 
> Regards, 
> Joel


Karaka seedlings are a good indicator plant here, they come up in huge numbers almost forming a ground cover, and you can see the damage to seedlings easily when deer or goats first show up. When the karaka seedlings are getting low, the deer and/or goat numbers are high. They also love nikau, I hand sowed many thousands of seeds before the deer arrived, had thousands of them up to about 1m high, almost all gone now.

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## Allizdog

Totally agree        @joelhenton. Just saying hunting the bush in the area I hunt is not as conducive as hunting the more open places in the same area because of the thickness of the bush. That's where the palatable for deer thing comes in. :Thumbsup:

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## Micky Duck

> Hi Allizdog, 
> 
> There is plenty of thick bush all over New Zealand, but remember that thick bush doesn't necessarily mean it's all comprised of palatable plant species. Deer are quite selective browsers that concentrate their feeding on plant species that are palatable, the likes of broadleaf (Griselinia littoralis), Coprosma grandifolia, lancewood (Pseudopanax crassifolius), kamahi (Weinmannia racemosa), mahoe (Melicytus ramiflorus), putaputaweta (Carpodetus serrated), five finger (Pseudopanax arboretum), to name but a few of the woody trees. And they will consume these at all stages of the plants life, seedlings, saplings, and mature trees. The palatables become fewer, while the non-palatables increase in abundance. Those open areas of bush sure are nice to walk around in, but it's not the signs of a healthy forest.
> 
> Regards, 
> Joel


GRISELINIA anyone

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## Spitfire

Those who were ambivalent regarding the tahr cull(s) should take note. Tahr were the thin end of the wedge. Deer, tahr, trout and salmon will be in the crosshairs next.

 Greens need to fu##ed off in the election and pressure put on Labour to stop this fundamentalist lunacy. Labour is going to win the election at a canter, which will consign Greens and Sage to the scrap heap where they belong, but Labour will have a stronger mandate than ever.

Get on to your Labour MPs and candidates and tell them how pissed off you are and will not vote for them unless they challenge what’s going on (as I have). Or just do nothing and watch our hunting lifestyle and future be destroyed in pursuit of some unachievable utopia for the greenies.

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## stagstalker

There are too many deer in so many places. That’s pretty obvious, and yes we as hunters play a part in managing them but that part is not big enough. Hunters simply do not shoot enough deer. There’s a few reasons for this such as access which has been mentioned like private property, landlocked reserves and remote public areas etc. Another is the fact so many hunters go out to target stags and leave the hinds and lastly we just don’t actually shoot enough in general, particularly hinds. Anyone who thinks we can continue the way we are is kidding themselves. The issue we face is getting a palatable well rounded solution for the ongoing management of our wild herds. Something that strikes a good balance between hunters mentality on what to shoot, access to areas for hunters to control numbers and then most likely a commercial component that then does the fine tuning but with goals that work for everyone. We need numbers that strike the ultimate balance with the ecosystem they are living in so the deer are healthy and provide good hunting whilst the environment around them is healthy too. Anyone who hasn’t listened to the podcast by the educated hunter with Cam Speedy needs to have a listen and get a bit more educated on the subject. If done right we can setup something good for the future. It will take hunters getting educated and onboard though rather then referring to the defence “entitled” attitude so often seen. It needs to be done, what we all need to worry about is making sure it’s done right. That is a whole other topic in itself and is the concern IMO.

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## Hiawatha

Are there too many deer in many areas? Yes! Are there not very many in some areas? Yes. Is there too much emphasis on shooting stags by all concerned and not enough on leaving stags to grow to a decent age? Yes. Are not enough hinds shot per stag? Correct. Are there many hunters actually effectively hunting the bush year round? Hell no. Are we overdue for a coordinated, collaborative, science based approach to manage numbers proactively and in line with the environmental carrying capacity area by area? Yes, absolutely! Will everyone's view on what that number per area is vary significantly? Absolutely. Do I hold out any hope of all government officials being reasonable and inclusive to the point that everyone's concerns are properly looked after? No. Do I hold out any hope that some hunters wont be ignorant dicks who really don't understand what is at stake outside of their wish of hunting a deer behind every tree area? Nope. So what do I want? I want a quality, sustainable hunting experience where the deer numbers are in balance with the environment I am hunting in, where I am bombarded by native taonga while I do, where the deer I hunt are healthy and there are enough to at least have a chance if I hunt right and where our hunting heritage is long term and protected, just like the environment we hunt in. When the decision made for so many has everyone from all sides a little bit pissed off, I call that a well balanced decision. Unfortunately often those in power think it is balanced when the group they personally disagree with is pissed off but not them. When everyone looks after everyone, then everyone wins. Sometimes the decision makers need to be reminded of that though.

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## Friwi

The number of deer can be greatly reduced by facilitating access to remote places of bush or forest.
Creating new access tracks for exemple.
Issuing special permits to allow the spotlighting of hinds on public land.

I know these radical ideas are out of the common ideas we have of hunting and in a way are extreme measures, but every year that pass by and actions are not taken to reduce the number of deer, the numbers are actually increasing, and eventually Doc and/or the green will take the decision of eradicating a good chunk of our animals with 1080 or shooting them  like they did for thar.

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## Moa Hunter

I dont see that there are 'too many' deer in Canterbury. I know for a fact that each spring the Wallis's fly through all the RHA Waro areas in the Rakaia and North Ashburton and knock the deer right back. Bill Hales shoots the rest.
I have seen a lot more deer overseas than Canterbury, Fallow in South Canty would be the exception.

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## stagstalker

> I dont see that there are 'too many' deer in Canterbury. I know for a fact that each spring the Wallis's fly through all the RHA Waro areas in the Rakaia and North Ashburton and knock the deer right back. Bill Hales shoots the rest.
> I have seen a lot more deer overseas than Canterbury, Fallow in South Canty would be the exception.


The over population definitely doesn’t apply to everywhere. Where places like Canturbury could get benefit from a management plan for the future would see things like a cap on the amount that can be shot by helicopter per area so you maintain the right number of healthy animals for their environment and then actually determine what they are allowed to shoot as part of those numbers. Such as no stags, but hinds as an example etc. A FWF type model for example. A solution that maintains commercial interest whilst also benefiting the recreational interest.

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## Moa Hunter

> The number of deer can be greatly reduced by facilitating access to remote places of bush or forest.
> Creating new access tracks for exemple.
> Issuing special permits to allow the spotlighting of hinds on public land.
> 
> I know these radical ideas are out of the common ideas we have of hunting and in a way are extreme measures, but every year that pass by and actions are not taken to reduce the number of deer, the numbers are actually increasing, and eventually Doc and/or the green will take the decision of eradicating a good chunk of our animals with 1080 or shooting them  like they did for thar.


I totally agree about facilitating access; to that end we can all do our bit to have unformed legal roads opened up for access. This can be a slow process with some district councils, it is councils who administer these roads NOT DOC !!.
AS an example on March 27 I hand delivered a letter to my local council regarding an unformed road which is a potential access point to a DOC hunting area. The road has a blocking fence across it where it intersects a formed road which is illegal. It also has a fence down the centre for part of its length, also illegal. 
It was only last week ( 5 1/2 months later ) after escalating the matter to the Mayor that there has been some action and as a result the public access will be re-instated.

We need to all do our part and identify these roads and keep at the councils to have them marked as access points. If we do not, there is potential for landowners to apply to Councils to have unformed roads closed permanently.

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## Yesmate

> There are too many deer in so many places. That’s pretty obvious, and yes we as hunters play a part in managing them but that part is not big enough. Hunters simply do not shoot enough deer. There’s a few reasons for this such as access which has been mentioned like private property, landlocked reserves and remote public areas etc. Another is the fact so many hunters go out to target stags and leave the hinds and lastly we just don’t actually shoot enough in general, particularly hinds. Anyone who thinks we can continue the way we are is kidding themselves. The issue we face is getting a palatable well rounded solution for the ongoing management of our wild herds. Something that strikes a good balance between hunters mentality on what to shoot, access to areas for hunters to control numbers and then most likely a commercial component that then does the fine tuning but with goals that work for everyone. We need numbers that strike the ultimate balance with the ecosystem they are living in so the deer are healthy and provide good hunting whilst the environment around them is healthy too. Anyone who hasn’t listened to the podcast by the educated hunter with Cam Speedy needs to have a listen and get a bit more educated on the subject. If done right we can setup something good for the future. It will take hunters getting educated and onboard though rather then referring to the defence “entitled” attitude so often seen. It needs to be done, what we all need to worry about is making sure it’s done right. That is a whole other topic in itself and is the concern IMO.


Good rant, mostly correct but it the main thing the hunting community is freaking out about(and rightly so)is the current govt is clearly pro eradication of all "pests"and if you think they might listen to a common sense approach recommendation from us your kidding yourself.Sage wants to eradicate everything except natives and will do it as quick as she can while in power.I think the hunting community needs some new tactics as talking about it aint doing jack.

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