# Hunting > Hunting >  Resurgence of interest in the old "Three Oh"?

## bumblefoot

I dunno; maybe it's me. Or maybe I have too much non-hunting time on my hands during lockdown. But there seems to be a bit of resurgence in interest in using the old 303 for hunting. Or maybe I just tend to gravitate to "Three Oh" posts because I love my old 76-year old girl and have just fitted her out with a new Nikon Prostaff 2-7?

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## Dama dama

There does seem to be.  

I did the the .303 thing last year, bough a nice example of a cut down MkIII*, didn't put a scope on it, just used the original irons. I very much enjoyed mucking around with it at the range and getting it sighted in (which involved some mathematics not just clicks!).  I shot a couple of deer with it, and that achieved two goals, get a deer with a .303 and get a deer with iron sights.  
My goals achieved so I move it on to a fella who had similar plans.

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## stug

Shot my first deer with an open-sighted Jungle Carbine. One day I’d like to have a nice example of a Lee Speed in the cabinet.

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## 30late

Yes shot my first deer with a Parkerhale sporterised .303 (think that's what they were called) had a Bushnell Banner 4x scope on it .
I was 18 I think so 45 years ago and it was my most prized possession , and thinking about that rifle now it was actually a good reliable gun. Cheers

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## Rocco

Would love to get my hands on one to have a go at cleaning them up, but the prices of them do seem to have gone up a bit, even for one in proper rough condition. (doesn't help having a sprog on the way either)

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## erniec

Shot my first deer with a Parker Hale sporter .303

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## gundoc

I have some excellent examples of .303 rifles in my collection including two pristine Parker Hale standard sporters (No1 and No4).  Sadly I cannot focus on front sights anymore, and I have absolutely no intention to drill and tap them to fit scopes.  I used a .303 for about 4 years before I got my first .30/06 and shot literally hundreds of animals with it, both as a hunter and a professional shooter.  I think it is fair to say no other calibre I have used has accounted for as much game with the exception of a 12 guage shotgun, and possibly the .22 Long Rifle.

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## Gapped axe

I loved mine but have just passed on the love to another forum member. Reducing the number of firearms I own and I must admit the old 303 has a huge part in my past hunting exploits. I used to use a jungl e carbine whilst meat hunting. I also shaped the rubber pad into a pig hoof shape and used it to confuse my other hunting mates LOL.

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## Bagheera

> I loved mine but have just passed on the love to another forum member. Reducing the number of firearms I own and I must admit the old 303 has a huge part in my past hunting exploits. I used to use a jungl e carbine whilst meat hunting. I also shaped the rubber pad into a pig hoof shape and used it to confuse my other hunting mates LOL.


Great story @Gapped axe !

The pig hoof - what was it like under recoil ?

I'm the same, first deer with my dad's target III* and aperture sights then sporterised it and used it for 30 years.

Recently my strategy is to reduce number of guns in the cabinet and it was a choice between keeping the 303 or a Sako 85 as backup rifle ...
Gave the 303 away to a new hunter with all the old brass and Lee Loader.  A line under that chapter and a good chapter it was.

I'd assumed the recent interest is as a substitute for MSSAs, although head to head semi 7.62x39 or 5.56 are better for rapid fire competition. My 303 used to occasionally have a rimmed round step over another so, while trusty, it wasn't 100% reliable for that sort of thing.

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## Dama dama

Mine wasn't 100% reliable.  The safety flopped around under recoil, blocking the bolt and therefore unable to open the action and reload quickly.  I taped it forward when hunting and just ran it with the bolt half open.  Push it closed if a shot presented its self, actually a good way to hunt I found. 

It had a factory 5 shot mag and without a scope it was a joy to carry.

I discovered how hard it is to use open sights in the dark dank bush, I missed out on on a lot of opportunities that would have been easy with a scoped rifle.   That's the main reason for moving the rifle along, while it was cool, I didn't see myself using it again for hunting. My eyes seem to be showing signs of aging!  The two deer I got were in the open on a sunny afternoon (it had just cleared from several days of rain, they were enjoying the sun as much as I was!), about  60m away and slightly down hill, so easy shots in the end.

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## Cordite

> Great story @Gapped axe !
> 
> *The pig hoof - what was it like under recoil ?
> *
> I'm the same, first deer with my dad's target III* and aperture sights then sporterised it and used it for 30 years.
> 
> Recently my strategy is to reduce number of guns in the cabinet and it was a choice between keeping the 303 or a Sako 85 as backup rifle ...
> Gave the 303 away to a new hunter with all the old brass and Lee Loader.  A line under that chapter and a good chapter it was.
> 
> *I'd assumed the recent interest is as a substitute for MSSAs*, although head to head semi 7.62x39 or 5.56 are better for rapid fire competition. *My 303 used to occasionally have a rimmed round step over another so, while trusty, it wasn't 100% reliable for that sort of thing.*


Suppose like getting back-kicked by a really big pig?

I thought that too, for the full 10rd capacity and I agree with your comments on rapid fire.  You'd need to put a compensator or muzzle brake on it, or maybe download the rounds to something more manageable recoil wise.

The original spec for the .303 (like the 7.62x54R Russian) had radiused rim edges to help prevent rim lock, which few manufacturers bother doing, but it is easily done with a file and the round in a drill press. The magazine design also helps "arrange them right" when you push down on the back of the stach with your thumb - but ONLY IF the ammunition is loaded to full COAL so the bullet tips interact properly with the magazine front wall.

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## bumblefoot

> I also shaped the rubber pad into a pig hoof shape and used it to confuse my other hunting mates LOL.


You can use the brass buttplate on the SMLE to make a realistic boar print in mud too. Usually results in a "F&&&ing useless dogs, that's bloody fresh" type comments from their owner. Well he was usually right; it was VERY fresh......  :Wink:  Always a laugh when you told them you did it.

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## Moa Hunter

Terrible action, pathetic slow lock time, awful trigger creep. Probably the best NZ calibre for pigs matched with a poor rifle.

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## Finnwolf

> Suppose like getting back-kicked by a really big pig?
> 
> I thought that too, for the full 10rd capacity and I agree with your comments on rapid fire.  You'd need to put a compensator or muzzle brake on it, or maybe download the rounds to something more manageable recoil wise.
> 
> The original spec for the .303 (like the 7.62x54R Russian) had radiused rim edges to help prevent rim lock, which few manufacturers bother doing, but it is easily done with a file and the round in a drill press. The magazine design also helps "arrange them right" when you push down on the back of the stach with your thumb - but ONLY IF the ammunition is loaded to full COAL so the bullet tips interact properly with the magazine front wall.



The charger clips for Lee-Enfield is base of bullets 1,3 & 5 hard down in the clip and bullets 2 & 4 sitting rim on top of the other bullets rims.
That’s the official army method.

While it seems counterintuitive it worked and I can’t recall any jams caused by one rim ‘snagging’ on another.

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## Micky Duck

the old girls work......what more praise is needed.....the round itself doesnt give much to the .308winchester and you can now once again get new barrels for the calibre... If I end up with spare $$$$ I would like to get a single bakail 7.62x39mm and reem it out to 303brit....the recoil factor can be managed with loading,but if you look at the stats the old .303brit sits closer to .243 than .308......it was the SMLEs cut down and lightened that gave impression of boot...suppressed they tell me its like .223 .....I shot quite a number of goats and pigs with one before moving onto the .30/30..... shot a few wallabies with .303 years later,got one as spare rifle..sold them on when finaces were tight.....

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## Cordite

> Terrible action, pathetic slow lock time, awful trigger creep. Probably the best NZ calibre for pigs matched with a poor rifle.


Agree with all the above. Add clanky noisy magazine and trigger over-travel. It's a battle rifle which only does OK as a hunting rifle. It's ironic that it was often the beginner's rifle when it really should not be.

There are of course certain special features ... like the shorter travel of the rear locker bolt so you don't have to pull your face out of its way, only 60 deg lift so you don't lose your sight picture when cycling the bolt, and the ergonomics of cock-on-close bolt that allows fast follow up shots while maintaining a pinch grip on the bolt.

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## kotuku

I habve in my cabintet my 1st cntrefire my beloved No4Mk11943 longbrach .303.interestingly Gundoc once did some work for me on this very rifle!
she doesnt get out myuch these days but i lovingly refer to her as my 18' naval gun  if nowt else in my armoury will solve the problem a 180gn softnose trundling out of her suppreesed snout generally means me 1 problem zero. 
 heavy yep stock mods by me.until very recently she wore a Bentley4x40 scope which was of the same vintage (early 80's and interestingly also one of a pair(other 4x28 for my .22) I had richard wilhems recondition and refit with 30/30 reticles. IIRC$70.00 all up  Contrary to the call of experts Mr w said they were a decent budget scope for the time and he didnt see any reason not to do the work.
like GD another craftsman lost to our fraternity.
I now have a 7.63x39 B/A  also -from my readings Im suprised the ballistics appears uncannily similar.

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## grandpamac

Greetings All,
Thoroughly agree with all that supported the Lee Enfield .303. My scoped rifle is all ready to go on some outings once Level 2 has been achieved. 174 grain round nose Hornady projectiles at 2,050 fps should do the job. The same velocity with 215 grain solids did the job for Bell on elephants over 100 years ago. I have some charger clips and a couple of WW1 vintage leather pouches so may even add those to the kit. Can't wait (but will).
Grandpamac.

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## bumblefoot

Even though I have just bought a Howa Lightweight 308 I still love using the old SMLE. I love the fact of taking a 76-year old rifle out hunting and seeing the puzzled looks on the young fulla's faces when you drag the old girl out. I have to sight it in after taking the 2.5x Weaver off it and fitting it with a 2-7 Nikon Prostaff. It shoots well with Highland 150's. 3" at 100. Which is fine because to be honest that says more about my aging eyes than it does the rifle! Should do better with the 2-7. I'll also get a Lee Loader and have a play with some handloads; just for fun  :Have A Nice Day: 

I've had the old girl since I was 18; I'm 57 now. It was my pig gun back then and has walked a lot of miles! Shot pigs, deer and goats with it; not a shitload, but enough. I had the barrel shortened to about 17 1/2 inches when i bought it. It was already sporterised. And sounds silly; but I could never part with it.....

The rifle that has, and still will, keep my freezer full is the Howa Mini 223. As I mostly hunt goats for the freezer. but I am going to do more deer hunting this year. One of my dreams is to take a red stag (anyone with any bone on its head really!) with the three oh...... 



And back when I was about 20-years old with my dog pighunting with the old girl out the back of Whangamomona...

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## Marty Henry

I think it's one of the nicest bolt actions to use, cock on closing is a bonus IMO,  i like 2 stage triggers. There is have a cut down lithgow waiting for me to properly sporterise then it will  see some goat action in the forestry blocks around here.

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## csmiffy

@Marty Henry unless you get the early ones with the little cup on the end. No 2 stage there
 @kotuku all good with the smaller weights but you wont be pushing a 180 grainer out of them at the same speed

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## grandpamac

Greetings Bumblefoot and All,
I've found the Lee Loader is ideal for neck sizing the .303 as it doesn't over size the neck. I prime them with a Lee hand tool. I have, in the interests of science primed the cases in the Lee Loader (wearing a full face mask) but the thought of doing any more terrifies me. Currently I seat the projectiles in the press but the Lee Loader would also do the job and I might start doing that. Retro loading can be just as much fun as taking an old soldier for a walk, for me at least.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## Lucky

My first rifle was a sporterised .303 , shot my first deer with it , it was ok up close , but took on my first Thar hunt in 86 , was definitely not ideal , but shit I used to throw the lead at them anyway

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## john m

A mate took his iron sighted no3 to Stewart Island before the lock down and shot a Whitetail buck.

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## bumblefoot

@grandpamac There was an American YT channel I watched called Leatherwood Outdoors where the guy hunted whitetail with all sorts of old mostly lever action rifles and blackpowder rifles. He was using 1905 32-40's, 32 winchester Specials, Winchester Model 1892 25-20 etc. I really enjoyed seeing those old rifles in action. 

And yes; I will be getting the hand priming tool! I used to use one for my old Lee Loader when I had it. Will be looking out for another 303 Lee Loader Classic after lockdown. 

I'm probably sounding like a hypocrite because I have a 308 and 223 too, but i do think it's often too easy to over-think hunting rifles.....

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## Tentman

My Dads No1 Mk3 holds pride of place in my cabinet, it was one of the BSA sporterised ones sold in the early 1950's.  Dad was a "child of the depression" and his family did it very hard, he left school at 12 to work on a farm.  He bought the rifle off his brother (who had bought it "new") and was visiting the farm Dad had somehow bought on the Pelorus river halfway between Canvastown and Pelorus Bridge about 1955 - I think maybe with his returned serviceman's status.   Said brother must have gotten really hard up too - there was a story about a broken down motorbike needing parts or something, and Dad somehow traded into the 303.  Given that Dad was so careful with his money it must have been a very considered transaction.

Anyhoo he proceeded to shoot many hundreds of pigs and goats (goats often with his BSA Sportsman 15, which I also have, as the ammo was cheaper), pigs in particular wreaked havoc with paddocks and lambs.

He gave me the rifle when I was about 20 and he'd moved from the Canvastown farm - to him it was a tool that was no longer needed.  BUT he'd looked after it, despite firing at least 4 or 5 of the canisters (each containing several packages of 75 rounds - does anybody recall how many the whole cylinder contained?) of military ball with corrosive primers the bore was bright and shiny.  The rifle came with the special funnel to pour a jug of boiling water through it EVERY time it was fired.

So in 1980 I'd just sold a Tikka M55 308 (oh why one asks oneself now) to fund the purchase of Heym 6.5x55 and I got invited to make up the numbers at a big Deerstalkers shoot in Invercargill.  Bugger.   Got Dads 303 out, got a scope mount on it and put a trusty 4x32 on top, sighted it in with the last of the Mk VII ball he'd also given me.  To my surprise it shot pretty well, about 40mm groups as I recall.  Off I went to the shoot, albeit with pretty modest expectations. I'd been doing a fair bit of 3 position "field" shooting with the NZSGSA and winning quite a few matches, but I knew that I'd be up against some good shooters with the latest 243's and 222's etc.

Well Invercargill delivered that day, it blew like hell, first from the nor-west, then a horrible Sou-west change.  I was lying second or third at lunch, and by the time the 300 yard was cancelled due to weather (we'd shot at 100 and 200) I'd used a shitty old 303 to clean up about 30 blokes, most with dead modern equipment. I think the margin was about 20 points, with Dads old 303 !!

Dad has passed, but I hope to pass his 303 onto one of my boys or maybe a grandson.

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## bumblefoot

@Tentman  Great story!

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## Dama dama

@Micky Duck, I like the idea of a baikal with a chamber reamed to .303.  Anyone around here actually done it?

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## bumblefoot

I remember reading in an old Australian Sporting Shooter mag in the late 70's and they were re-barreling/re-chambering 303's to 30-30. Something to do with the regulations there at that time?

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## Kiwi Sapper

> My Dads No1 Mk3 holds pride of place in my cabinet,............... (each containing several packages of 75 rounds - does anybody recall how many the whole cylinder contained?) of military ball with corrosive primers the bore was bright and shiny.  The rifle came with the special funnel to pour a jug of boiling water through it EVERY time it was fired......


Can't help you with the cylinder's capacity as I have seen them in several lengths, but can comment re the funnel.  I still use mine.



and in use. Chap on left holding rifle correctly, chap on right, not, in case of boiling water spillage.

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## Kiwi Sapper

> I remember reading in an old Australian Sporting Shooter mag in the late 70's and they were re-barreling/re-chambering 303's to 30-30. Something to do with the regulations there at that time?


I think it goes back to the 40's  The 25 - 303 also appeared, filling a void for Australian hunters and farmers, because at the time there was not a wide variety of choice in firearms or calibers and civilians were prohibited from owning any military calibers.

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## Lucky

> Can't help you with the cylinder's capacity as I have seen them in several lengths, but can comment re the funnel.  I still use mine.
> 
> Attachment 137583
> 
> and in use. Chap on left holding rifle correctly, chap on right, not, in case of boiling water spillage.
> 
> Attachment 137588


Great pics , never seen one of those before , that’s the stuff I like to see on here

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## Tentman

After a bit of a hunt I found an old 303 ball ammo canister - here's a pic for ya's with the cleaning funnel that came with dad's rifle and some 4x2.

A canister held five packets each of 75 rounds, so 375 rounds in total.  I reckon Dad must have out between 1500 and 2000 rounds through his 303 pig hunting, and he stuck everything he could, so the only ones shot were big boars and pigs out on open faces - a lot of pigs!



I also have a nice example of a Parker Hale No 4 Mk1 that is for sale, see the Sell/Trade/Swap section.

Cheers

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## grandpamac

> Can't help you with the cylinder's capacity as I have seen them in several lengths, but can comment re the funnel.  I still use mine.
> 
> Attachment 137583
> 
> and in use. Chap on left holding rifle correctly, chap on right, not, in case of boiling water spillage.
> 
> Attachment 137588


Greetings Kiwi Sapper,
I knew those funnels existed but had never seen one. Thank you. From memory those card board packages contained 75 rounds. I used to see them in the sports shops when we bought the rounds for sixpence each. At the time sporting ammo from CAC cost 1 and sixpence each which I thought was exorbitant.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## clickbang

Would have came in tubes like this in a box.
750rnds in a box

Sent from my SM-A505GN using Tapatalk

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## GDMP

I like the old SMLE personally.......easy to carry with a smooth action and decent trigger pull.....the main issue really is that so many of them have shot out bores,but if you come across one with a decent tube then why not use it for hunting if you so wish?.

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## bumblefoot

@grandpamac I found a 1/2 box of my CAC 303 ammo. I'm going to sight it in with the Federal 150's and then see if the CAC shoots close enough to use. I haven't got enough to sight in with it. If it's not close enough for sub-100m then I won't use it. I would love to shoot a deer with the old SMLE and some CAC for old time's sake  :Have A Nice Day:  I used minimum handloads of 4895(?) I think and hornady 174gr round noses for pigs. They never moved far......  :Wink:  That's probably why I have the CAC rounds left over

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## Kiwi Sapper

> Would have came in tubes like this in a box.  750rnds in a box


Ahhhhhhhh. nostalgia.Those were the days, as @grandpamac says, 6d a round.

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## bumblefoot

@GDMP My SMLE still has an old leather sling held together with white boot laces. I'm sure the laces give me a few extra feet per second  :Wink:

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## doinit

Good grief the  three0..long long ago now.

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## grandpamac

> @grandpamac I found a 1/2 box of my CAC 303 ammo. I'm going to sight it in with the Federal 150's and then see if the CAC shoots close enough to use. I haven't got enough to sight in with it. If it's not close enough for sub-100m then I won't use it. I would love to shoot a deer with the old SMLE and some CAC for old time's sake  I used minimum handloads of 4895(?) I think and hornady 174gr round noses for pigs. They never moved far......  That's probably why I have the CAC rounds left over


I broke down some of  the later boxer primed CAC cartridges for the components a while back. Much of the powder had clumped badly and there was light corrosion inside the cases. I fired the primers, not wanting to trust then, and some were duds. I think that the powder was AR2201 which did not handle high temperatures that well. I use 32 grains of AR2206H which is below start loads but above the 60% minimum quoted for H4895.
Grandpamac.

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## bumblefoot

The CAC I have would probably mid to late 1980's

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## grandpamac

> Good grief the  three0..long long ago now.


That scope looks a lot like the 2.5 power Lyman that is on my scoped .303. Mounts are similar too.
Grandpamac.

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## doinit

Not really sure how,,,but I recall when slogging around the hill for the Government I was asked to accompany a staff member on a trek.
It turned out the top brass were slightly concerned about a supposed stash of very old 303 ammo. A stash not far from a popular hut at the time,,they said it was buried. Arriving at the hut we looked at each other and the terian that we knew very well and thought, well we would have more chance pissin in the Queens hat than finding buried treasure around here.
After 3 days at the hut we never did find the old ammo,we did do some serious scratchin about too.
To end this tale ..we both found out 1 year later on that it was dug up and destroyed 4 plus yrs prior...communication brake down.
The ol 303 took the lives of many,many four and two legged targets for sure ....fact  :Have A Nice Day:

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## doinit

> That scope looks a lot like the 2.5 power Lyman that is on my scoped .303. Mounts are similar too.
> Grandpamac.


It was a old 3x steel Weaver Grandpamac,,almost the same to look at as your 2.5 Lyman eh.

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## bumblefoot

Here's the old Three Oh with the 2.5 steel Weaver. Still have the scope

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## grandpamac

Greetings All,
What a great thread to brighten up what would have otherwise been a pretty slow day. I think we have all been a bit down at times over the lock down and anything that jiggles the brain cells around a bit is most welcome.
Thanks Bumblefoot.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## Pistov

Bought a Parker Hale sporter with "Luminar" scope--brand new barrel,very nice "walnut" stock,5 round mag, when I was 17! Cost me 27 pounds 10 shillings ($55), Best bush gun I have ever used! Can honestly say I never had to chase a animal I knew I'd hit, used to reload Norma brass with 150gn softpoints and they were super effective!! When they connected which was most of the time--- man what a mess, Worst decision I ever made was to sell it a couple of years ago! Bought a real nice 7x57 BSA, lovely rifle but too long and clumsy in the bush we were hunting, have a 30/30 Marlin now, very good but not a patch on the old PH! Big regret!!!
75 next birthday and having trouble with a hip so not getting out much now!

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## bumblefoot

Was just thinking that I started the thread the day before ANZAC day; how apt for the Three Oh!

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## Cordite

> I'd assumed the recent interest is as a substitute for MSSAs, although head to head semi 7.62x39 or 5.56 are better for rapid fire competition.


"Bloke on the Range" did a recent video (2 wks ago) on full vs light loads and timed shooting. The rate of fire was surprisingly similar but the group was smaller with the light loads.  

Firing fast from the bolt reaching the trigger with your middle finger seems to cause a 4-5 o'clock pattern.

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## stug

Here is my first deer. Shot in 1986 with a Jungle Carbine and 20yr old CAC ammo.

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## Finnwolf

> "Bloke on the Range" did a recent video (2 wks ago) on full vs light loads and timed shooting. The rate of fire was surprisingly similar but the group was smaller with the light loads.  
> 
> Firing fast from the bolt reaching the trigger with your middle finger seems to cause a 4-5 o'clock pattern.


Didn’t have sound on but why did he only load one five round charger at a time instead of filling the mag with ten rounds (two chargers) each time?

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## C404

on a similar note, would there have been any other round that has accounted for more game animals? From pigs to crocodiles to elephants?

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## Hiawatha

> Terrible action, pathetic slow lock time, awful trigger creep. Probably the best NZ calibre for pigs matched with a poor rifle.


And a host of memories for so many hunters who are very sentimental about it. It might be a sows ear but its main strength was that it never stopped working. It takes me back to when life was simpler.

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## Cordite

> Didn’t have sound on but why did he only load one five round charger at a time instead of filling the mag with ten rounds (two chargers) each time?


Convention.  The Lee Enfield's 10 shot magazine is really a 5 round magazine which can have 10 crammed in but does not do it too well.

Loading in the second 5 found charger is not smooth and slows you rather than just firing five and loading five, and as I said the rounds don't actually feed so nicely from a full 10 round magazine.  So he starts out with 10, fires 10, and then loads 5 at a time.

The original mad minute I believe you start with 10+1, fire 6, [5 left] insert 5, fire 6,[4 left] insert 5, fire 6,[3 left] insert 5, fire 6,[2 left] insert 5, fire 6, [1 left] insert 5, fire 6... and you have an empty rifle and have fired 36 rounds.

In combat you'd start out with 10, and fire away, any chance you got you'd drop another charger of 5 in. The idea of the larger magazine seems to have been to ensure that there (usually) always will be space to take a whole charger.

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## csmiffy

In the last couple of years I seem to be accumulating various 303's.
Not getting out to use them, just accumulating them lol
have to change that-get out and about with some of the forum members I reckon

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## Tentman

I've been shooting a light 303 load comprising 125's over 30 gns of Reloader 7, for about 2500 fps.  VV N110 with the same charge works really nicely too, very low ES, good accuracy and about 2600 fps BUT use at your own risk, as its not a load from a manual (VV do list N110 for reduced laods with light projectiles).

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## Huk

WHO IS THAT YOUNG FULLA  :Psmiley:  HA HA@ Stug good 1

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## Cordite

> I've been shooting a light 303 load comprising 125's over 30 gns of Reloader 7, for about 2500 fps.  VV N110 with the same charge works really nicely too, very low ES, good accuracy and about 2600 fps BUT use at your own risk, as its not a load from a manual (VV do list N110 for reduced laods with light projectiles).


What does "very low ES" mean?  Erosion of my Shoulder ?  :Thumbsup:  

Useful idea what with all that 7.62 Soviet lying about uselessly with projectiles waiting to be pulled. Another niche use for the old 3-oh in cleaning up Cindy's mess.

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## erniec

Have thought of picking up a Ruger #1 in .303 if one came up for sale.
The test reports indicated they were not that accurate.
Has anybody got one and what is their experience of it?.

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## omark

> What does "very low ES" mean?  Erosion of my Shoulder ?  
> 
> Useful idea what with all that 7.62 Soviet lying about uselessly with projectiles waiting to be pulled. Another niche use for the old 3-oh in cleaning up Cindy's mess.


It's the variation in velocity. Much care must be taken when using these faster pistol powders and jacketed bullets (cast bullets are different again) It can result in massive pressure spikes. Much better to spend 30 cents a round on the correct rifle powders is 2206h or 2208 than have a bolt come back through your head!!!
I would not recommend using the powder listed with jacketed projectiles and my strong advice is to never except any load data you see anywhere unless you verify it.

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## omark

> It's the variation in velocity. Much care must be taken when using these faster pistol powders and jacketed bullets (cast bullets are different again) It can result in massive pressure spikes. Much better to spend 30 cents a round on the correct rifle powders is 2206h or 2208 than have a bolt come back through your head!!!
> I would not recommend using the powder listed with jacketed projectiles and my strong advice is to never except any load data you see anywhere unless you verify it.



And I forgot to add that I have had good results from the X.39 bullets out to 300 . They don't like to be driven to hard though

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## csmiffy

> Have thought of picking up a Ruger #1 in .303 if one came up for sale.
> The test reports indicated they were not that accurate.
> Has anybody got one and what is their experience of it?.


There is something to do about the barrel. They were apparently way too big from factory-like 314-315" something like that. Only read about it recently on an aussie forum. Ruger went off some spec that said that was the way to go instead of doing some proper homework

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## Cordite

> There is something to do about the barrel. They were apparently way too big from factory-like 314-315" something like that. Only read about it recently on an Aussie forum. Ruger went off some spec that said that was the way to go instead of doing some proper homework


Maybe Ruger mixed up American convention with European convention.  The Americans measure caliber groove to groove whereas the self-confident Europeans with nothing to prove duly measure calibre land to land and end up with a lower measure of the same barrel.

Thus .303 Brit is actually a bigger calibre than .308 Win and 7.62 (.30") Soviet is also larger (Russians are Europeans).

.303 barrels land to land are .303" and grove to groove more like .315 with variation in the latter. 

.308 is .30" land to land and .308 groove to groove.

The Ruger Mini-30 in 7.62 Soviet(European) was originally shipped with a .30 (American) barrel causing some accuracy issues.

----------


## ROKTOY

> In the last couple of years I seem to be accumulating various 303's.
> Not getting out to use them, just accumulating them lol
> have to change that-get out and about with some of the forum members I reckon


I had one tucked away in the safe for years, never used it so sold it several months ago, kind of wish I had kept it now.

----------


## csmiffy

@ROKTOY the way i'm going I will probably have a spare one for you.
    @Cordite some seem to get theirs to shoot fine and the bores were OK. Maybe later models or just tighter?
here is a cut/paste from Nitroexpress forum-about halfway down. Must've been a kiwi on there that mentioned NZguns and hunting magazine and a review on one. The throats were way long and more suited 215grs as well. The pic is from the same nitro forum thread from another owner and his one in particular had a good sized bore but still a very deeply cut throat. he was happy with how it shot but not with the woodleighs. they shot crap in his rifle

"just thought I'd give an update of what has transpired in regard to my No 1 in 303 Brit. I started this thread after picking up my 303 and found the more the rifle was looked at, the more disappointed with its quality I became. I must admit that I really don't know how well it shoots because since I picked it up last November, I've fired only 5 shots with it. This is due to the completely "pissed off " effect and seeing how many were turning up for sale, I knew that being able to sell it and recover my money won't happen.
Then there was a little ray of hope when I saw that RULE303 had sent his back because the bore in his measured .315". Out to the safe I go and after doing a cast at muzzle and breech, mine turns out to be 315' too. So with high hopes mine is sent back to the importer here in Oz but in just a few weeks the gunshop rings and informs me it is back and I can pick it up. The importer says the bore is "within spec". A note at the bottom of the same letter states that "Ruger designed these rifles based on the the original 303 rifles which had a bore diameter of between 0.314 & 0.316 ".
So not only do I own a new rifle with poor fitting timber, finger prints in the stock finish and metal parts that should fit better, but also with a bore that is at least 3 thou. over any jacketed projectiles I can buy over the counter. I find it hard to believe that Ruger would dimension their barrels based on "original 303 rifles" when all the ammo available uses 0.312" pills ! As we all know these rifle were made in 2010. All modern 303 ammo uses 0.312 or even 0.311 projectiles so for the life of me I can't figure out, if its true, why that would make barrels at 0.315 or maybe even 0.316" !! To me a barrel this much over size is 3/4 worn out to start with. I don't mind playing around with oversize bullets to get a vintage rifle to shoot, thats part of the game, but its a bit rich to have to do it with a factory new one.
Anyway thats were I am at the moment, paid the money in good faith and ended up with a very suspect product that I believe will sit at the back of the safe for quite some time."

----------


## grandpamac

> @ROKTOY the way i'm going I will probably have a spare one for you.
>     @Cordite some seem to get theirs to shoot fine and the bores were OK. Maybe later models or just tighter?
> here is a cut/paste from Nitroexpress forum-about halfway down. Must've been a kiwi on there that mentioned NZguns and hunting magazine and a review on one. The throats were way long and more suited 215grs as well. The pic is from the same nitro forum thread from another owner and his one in particular had a good sized bore but still a very deeply cut throat. he was happy with how it shot but not with the woodleighs. they shot crap in his rifle
> 
> "just thought I'd give an update of what has transpired in regard to my No 1 in 303 Brit. I started this thread after picking up my 303 and found the more the rifle was looked at, the more disappointed with its quality I became. I must admit that I really don't know how well it shoots because since I picked it up last November, I've fired only 5 shots with it. This is due to the completely "pissed off " effect and seeing how many were turning up for sale, I knew that being able to sell it and recover my money won't happen.
> Then there was a little ray of hope when I saw that RULE303 had sent his back because the bore in his measured .315". Out to the safe I go and after doing a cast at muzzle and breech, mine turns out to be 315' too. So with high hopes mine is sent back to the importer here in Oz but in just a few weeks the gunshop rings and informs me it is back and I can pick it up. The importer says the bore is "within spec". A note at the bottom of the same letter states that "Ruger designed these rifles based on the the original 303 rifles which had a bore diameter of between 0.314 & 0.316 ".
> So not only do I own a new rifle with poor fitting timber, finger prints in the stock finish and metal parts that should fit better, but also with a bore that is at least 3 thou. over any jacketed projectiles I can buy over the counter. I find it hard to believe that Ruger would dimension their barrels based on "original 303 rifles" when all the ammo available uses 0.312" pills ! As we all know these rifle were made in 2010. All modern 303 ammo uses 0.312 or even 0.311 projectiles so for the life of me I can't figure out, if its true, why that would make barrels at 0.315 or maybe even 0.316" !! To me a barrel this much over size is 3/4 worn out to start with. I don't mind playing around with oversize bullets to get a vintage rifle to shoot, thats part of the game, but its a bit rich to have to do it with a factory new one.
> Anyway thats were I am at the moment, paid the money in good faith and ended up with a very suspect product that I believe will sit at the back of the safe for quite some time."
> 
> Attachment 137736


Greetings Csmiffy,
There are likely plenty of .303 Lee Enfields out there with groove diameter's that large that shoot quite well, especially the two groove barrels. I think where Ruger may have gone wrong is copying the groove diameter and using the narrow US style of rifling. Enfield style .303 barrels can shoot pretty well with .308 diameter projectiles. I tried 150 grain .308 projectiles in my no 4 two groove and they arrived point on but strung vertically with my light load. I will try a bit more coal and see if that helps. Other reports I have heard have found the later Ruger no 1 .303 rifles shot well so maybe there was a change.
Regards Grandpamac.
PS This is a great thread. No mention of the latest whizo cartridges, super television scopes or 0.5 MoA groups at 1,000 yards. Excellent.

----------


## grandpamac

Just checked with Hatcher's notebook. He gave the .303 bore as that with the grooves 0.0058 deep so the grooves would have been .314 to .315 inch as noted. The lands and grooves were equal width rather than the very narrow US style lands. Hatcher would certainly been aware of the reason for the wide lands (erosive cordite propellant) and the oversize groove diameter (providing space for expansion of the projectile as it was forced into the wide lands). It is a pity Ruger was not up to speed.
Grandpamac.

----------


## Mooseman

I like so many others started out with a 303, scoped, and couldn't hit shit with it. Missed the first 3-4 deer I shot at then sold it and bought a PH 270 and next hunt got my first deer.
Over the years I have dabbled with a few cut down 30's and shot a few animals but not a lot really. Currently I have two one scoped the other a 1945 Isophore which has been drilled and tapped but I took the scope off and have it set up for  open sights. Problem is the eyes don't focus to well on the foresight to well unless I use low powered glasses, then I can see them as well as the target. I need to take it out and put some rounds through it, they are a great caliber and rifle and have sure stood the test of time. My Isophore model has quite a shiny bore and has matching numbers the other has a newish shortened barrel but no matching numbers.
Would be good to have a forum shoot using these old warhorses.

----------


## G.I_Joel

Have literally just purchased one during lock down in anticipation for the unlock down. Cant wait to get it to the range and see how she fires then hope to knock over some goats. Once Im confident with the open sights then take her out and chase some deer with it. Cant wait!

----------


## Mooseman

Back in the Day (71) I use to shoot at the Auckland NZDA using borrowed 303's at first till I bought my first one for $60 scoped . Ammo at the club was military stuff and was 5 cents a round. Hell back then I used to think what a canon the old 30 was but compared to rounds of today it is quite mild. I think stock design has a fair bit to do with felt recoil.
Shot plenty of goats with mine when I first got it so it was capable but I think a bit of Buck fever crept in on those early day deer hunts which caused all the misses.

----------


## 7.62

Up until probably the late 1950’s the rifle of choice for a government culler was a cut down SMLE .303 (not that they had any choice!). The cullers generally rated the three ‘oh highly. Being a battle rifle it was rugged and could take a lot of abuse. Cullers operating in alpine regions could use the butt plate to bash steps into icey slopes, and if you went for a slide the foresight could be driven into the ice to arrest your slide. The 10 round mag and fast (for a bolt action) cyclic rate was also just the ticket for big mobs of deer or other game. It was a very effective tool for the job. 

In the 1960’s when most cullers and meat hunters had switched to more modern cartridges, a minority stuck with the 303 because it simply got the job done with a minimum of fuss. A prominent helicopter shooter chose a 303 over an FN 308, and achieved the same tallies as other teams with a shitload less ammo

----------


## john m

I have a tidy PH with from memory a .314 barrel.Never was a good shooter untill I tried the Woodleigh 215 gr now its sighted for 170 yds and groups 2" at 100yds.

----------


## grandpamac

And it will continue to smack deer dead far, far into the future.
Grandpamac.

----------


## Finnwolf

For left handers the Lee- Enfield bolt is murder on the outside of the left hand during rapid fire, many a blood blister have I had from that.

----------


## Cordite

> For left handers the Lee- Enfield bolt is murder on the outside of the left hand during rapid fire, many a blood blister have I had from that.


One is allowed to dream.  (o:



Question is, IS IT possible?  Cut off right side handle and reattach to left side.  Would just have to get used to up = locked and down = unlocked.  The safety catch would be sacrificed but no one relies on it nowadays, open bolt or not safe.  The LE bolt handle does not function as a last ditch locking lug.  If you have an old sporter... why not get the dremel out?  Or am I insane  @gundoc?

----------


## Micky Duck

there were limited numbers of left hand SMLEs if my memory serves me correctly.

----------


## Tahr

I had a vague recollection that "303" meant something to me  :Have A Nice Day:  Had to go well down into the old chocolate box to find this.

----------


## Mooseman

Here is a picture of my two 303's top one is the miss matched numbered one the other is the Isophore 1942 No 1 MK111 as I found out it has matching numbers on bolt ,action, magazine and presume the barrel but can't see as its under wood.

----------


## Mooseman

> I had a vague recollection that "303" meant something to me  Had to go well down into the old chocolate box to find this.


Nice one Bruce, worth rummaging through the old chocolate box for those old pictures. Back in the "old" days my old instamatic was next to useless and I missed out on many good photo's.

----------


## csmiffy

> One is allowed to dream.  (o:
> 
> Attachment 137867
> 
> Question is, IS IT possible?  Cut off right side handle and reattach to left side.  Would just have to get used to up = locked and down = unlocked.  The safety catch would be sacrificed but no one relies on it nowadays, open bolt or not safe.  The LE bolt handle does not function as a last ditch locking lug.  If you have an old sporter... why not get the dremel out?  Or am I insane  @gundoc?


 @Cordite a quick think about it would suggest that while you could just cut and shut the bolt, the physical clockwise action of closing the bolt couldn't be changed that easily. You would then have a bolt that would be pointing straight up when you were ready to fire.
don't know about a left handed one. Doubt if they did it for the military-you were just trained to use it the way it was designed. I cant remember the source but it suggested that the majority of soldiers weren't familiar with firearms anyway so it is less of an issue to teach a lefty to shoot right handed then make a bunch of rifles for a minority
Did find this comment on another forum:

"There were no left handed service rifles, leftys became proficient at using the rifle in right handed fashion under the gentle ministrations of Sergeants and other Non-Coms. I have seen a 303 from Qld at the Nationals where the bolt handle had been extended and bent back over the striker in such a fashion as to be readily manipulated with the left hand without having to reach over the stock or moving the head too much, and this enabled the shooter to use the left shoulder with ease."

----------


## Kiwi Sapper

> One is allowed to dream.  (o:.............


Perhaps, but the photo shopped image appears to show an American WW 1 M1907 leather sling...............  Let's stick with the webbing if we can.   :>)

----------


## Cordite

> @Cordite a quick think about it would suggest that while you could just cut and shut the bolt, the physical clockwise action of closing the bolt couldn't be changed that easily. *You would then have a bolt that would be pointing straight up when you were ready to fire.*
> don't know about a left handed one. Doubt if they did it for the military-you were just trained to use it the way it was designed. I cant remember the source but it suggested that the majority of soldiers weren't familiar with firearms anyway so it is less of an issue to teach a lefty to shoot right handed then make a bunch of rifles for a minority
> Did find this comment on another forum:
> 
> "There were no left handed service rifles, leftys became proficient at using the rifle in right handed fashion under the gentle ministrations of Sergeants and other Non-Coms. I have seen a 303 from Qld at the Nationals where the bolt handle had been extended and bent back over the striker in such a fashion as to be readily manipulated with the left hand without having to reach over the stock or moving the head too much, and this enabled the shooter to use the left shoulder with ease."


Ah... but the beauty of a Lee action is that its bolt handle does not stick directly up at any time.  The Lee's 60 degree lift (/) from the closed position (\) means you never need to lose the sight picture when racking the bolt.  I say "need to" because anyone who's shot a Mauser quickly learns to lift their face off the rifle when pulling the bolt back, and with that bad habit in place you never realise that with the Lee you can just keep your head down.  Also why you don't need a bent-down bolt handle to use a scope on a Lee Enfield.

I suppose you could manufacture a clamp-on bolt handle cross-extension to the other side, thus avoiding the dremel-&-weld scenario.  A variation on this guy's device: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzJdMc0Mpyg





> Perhaps, but the photo shopped image appears to show an American WW 1 M1907 leather sling...............  Let's stick with the webbing if we can.   :>)


Aaagh, I've been found out.  I confess, Windows "Paintbrush" horizontal flip, but nowhere near adobe photoshop. (o;

----------


## northdude

heres mine i can shoot the 3 better than the 4 but still need some practice

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## akaroa1

Vulcan Barrels has just brough in a heap of 303 gun drills and buttons to make 303 barrels more easily.
I recall maybe left hand twist to be authentic

----------


## Spitfire

Great to see they are still running and doing the business. I had a few shots with one around Christmas with ammo marked 1911! It would have struggled to hit a barn door with the almost smooth bore and ancient ammo, but it was an experience nonetheless.

I also had the privilege to be a part of a sniper specific battlefield tour to Ypres and Paschendale, where the first British sniper school was established. The range butts are still discernible, and we even found some projectiles there. To think some of these rifles are still active is amazing. Good on all who run them.

----------


## Micky Duck

hmmm

----------


## gundoc

> One is allowed to dream.  (o:
> 
> Attachment 137867
> 
> Question is, IS IT possible?  Cut off right side handle and reattach to left side.  Would just have to get used to up = locked and down = unlocked.  The safety catch would be sacrificed but no one relies on it nowadays, open bolt or not safe.  The LE bolt handle does not function as a last ditch locking lug.  If you have an old sporter... why not get the dremel out?  Or am I insane  @gundoc?


Nothing is impossible but it certainly is impractical!  I think the reversed photo is affecting you!

----------


## ROKTOY

> @ROKTOY the way i'm going I will probably have a spare one for you.


If you ever find yourself over run with them,  let me know, I could foster one of them for you. Might go browse the For Sale section now.

----------


## csmiffy

@ROKTOY there is a couple on there. A pair with only one bolt in the NI for not bad money

----------


## Cordite

> hmmmAttachment 137898


Only 12 months guarantee???  They last a lot longer.  Haha!

----------


## grandpamac

> hmmmAttachment 137898


Look Micky,
A left handed .303 for sale!
Grandpamac.

----------


## Finnwolf

> Look Micky,
> A left handed .303 for sale!
> Grandpamac.



Are the more pricy ones the left hand ones? :Grin:

----------


## Micky Duck

oh come along now fellas....I found you a genuine advert.....the picture tells all.......no photoshop back when that add was printed......

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## Cordite

> Look Micky,
> A left handed .303 for sale!
> Grandpamac.


Well spotted. Respect!

----------


## shooternz

> I think it goes back to the 40's  The 25 - 303 also appeared, filling a void for Australian hunters and farmers, because at the time there was not a wide variety of choice in firearms or calibers and civilians were prohibited from owning any military calibers.


Australia had a dumb law back then that banned military calibres  so resulted in the 25-303 270-303 and a few others I think a 375-303 was one.

----------


## zimmer

> Australia had a dumb law back then that banned military calibres  so resulted in the 25-303 270-303 and a few others I think a 375-303 was one.


IIRC that law banning mil calibres was in NSW only. Which was weird as Mick Smith Sports started out his business buying milsurp rifles an selling them interstate. Mick Smith also developed the 7.7x54  to get around the NSW laws of the day. Basically a 303 barrel set back 1 or 2 threads (cannot remember which).

The only people permitted to own an ex mil calibre in NSW were graziers, pest destruction, maybe a few others cannot remember. Micky D's posting of 303s for sale at Melbourne Firearms, Vic (a biggy in its time, still going) shows unadulterated 303s for sale.

In its day Mick Smiths in George Street Sydney was huge. Visited a couple a times in the 80's when the store was already in decline. Closed a few years ago.

----------


## johnd

Are the .303 gaining popularity ? Having a resurgance ?
I think yes, partly on the back of Jacinda bucks, and partly due to folk realising there is a lot of charm / history to these.
Growing up I spurned the "three oh " relying on levers, and shy of all the information regarding poor safety design ( the reason we are a nation of 1/2 cockers )
This was probably also due to my hunting mentor only having fingers on his off hand. He could fire and work a lever with his thumb more readily than work a bolt.
Most govt deer culling had gone by the way side and choppers filled the sky ( ten four good buddy ) as I approached hunting age..

Fast forward 40 years and I find my interest in them raised, and I can now usually tell the difference from a 3 and a 4. With taking up TR ( full bore ) I keep looking for something unmolested or even in traditional range configuration. 
But dare I say it a P14 would be betterer.

----------


## Cordite

> Are the .303 gaining popularity ? Having a resurgance ?
> I think yes, partly on the back of Jacinda bucks, and partly due to folk realising there is a lot of charm / history to these.
> Growing up I spurned the "three oh " relying on levers, and shy of all the information regarding poor safety design ( the reason we are a nation of 1/2 cockers )
> This was probably also due to my hunting mentor only having fingers on his off hand. He could fire and work a lever with his thumb more readily than work a bolt.
> Most govt deer culling had gone by the way side and choppers filled the sky ( ten four good buddy ) as I approached hunting age..
> 
> Fast forward 40 years and I find my interest in them raised, and I can now usually tell the difference from a 3 and a 4. With taking up TR ( full bore ) I keep looking for something unmolested or even in traditional range configuration. 
> *But dare I say it a P14 would be betterer*.


 :OSMILEY:  Gasp!!!

----------


## muka88

A mate gave me two well used old 303s when i was about 20 years old (2000's) as he didnt have a firearms licence, they were found in a family estate,fired one once it threw bullets end over end , at the time i thought "old peices of shit" after i offered them back to the guy that gave them to me (he didnt want them)  i took them to the cop shop.
kick myself every time i think about it,IDIOT

----------


## Cordite

> A mate gave me two well used old 303s when i was about 20 years old (2000's) as he didnt have a firearms licence, they were found in a family estate,fired one once it threw bullets end over end , at the time i thought "old peices of shit" after i offered them back to the guy that gave them to me (he didnt want them)  i took them to the cop shop.
> kick myself every time i think about it,IDIOT


 :OSMILEY:   Gasp!!!  (now also wheezing).

----------


## Scout

Haha I have a heap of them now after being bitten hard by the BSA Sporter/Lee Speed bug & this is after I got rid of ever single mag & part for MLE SMLE No4 No5 from when I was younger, spent last 10yrs getting the bits back .

In fact just today was give a nice old No3 SMLE from a old guy with no FAL !

----------


## Cordite

> Haha I have a heap of them now after being bitten hard by the BSA Sporter/Lee Speed bug & this is after I got rid of ever single mag & part for MLE SMLE No4 No5 from when I was younger, spent last 10yrs getting the bits back .
> 
> *In fact just today was give a nice old No3 SMLE from a old guy with no FAL !*


And you said to him, "Thank you for making New Zealand safer!"

----------


## Scout

Oh Crap, good point, I didn't, he gave it to me, are you sure that made NZ safer ??

----------


## northdude

i feel way fukn safer thank you @Scout

----------


## GDMP

Seeing as semi's are now gone,maybe there will be a resurgence in the classic bolt action milsurp rifles.There will still be quantities of such rifles in storage around the world, but they must surely be hard to find now even with the huge numbers manufactured in the past.I have always had a bit of a fetish for Mauser carbines myself.....

----------


## Cordite

> Seeing as semi's are now gone,maybe there will be a resurgence in the classic bolt action milsurp rifles.There will still be quantities of such rifles in storage around the world, but they must surely be hard to find now even with the huge numbers manufactured in the past.I have always had a bit of a fetish for Mauser carbines myself.....


Yes, the Americans have a thing for "scout rifles".  No real NZ equivalent, and "bushpig" does not quite have the same cool factor.

----------


## northdude

Or name

----------


## Kiwi Sapper

> Yes, the Americans have a thing for "scout rifles".  No real NZ equivalent, and "bushpig" does not quite have the same cool factor.


Really?  To me, the number 5 meets the criteria very well.


By Rama - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0 fr, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/inde...curid=76075779

----------


## grandpamac

> Seeing as semi's are now gone,maybe there will be a resurgence in the classic bolt action milsurp rifles.There will still be quantities of such rifles in storage around the world, but they must surely be hard to find now even with the huge numbers manufactured in the past.I have always had a bit of a fetish for Mauser carbines myself.....


Greetings GDMP and All,
Agreed. An excellent point. Lets hope some see the benefits of looking after and feeding some old soldier rather than hosing down cardboard soldiers with cheapo mil spec ammo, much more rewarding in the end. As Scout has found there lots of rifles looking for a new home in NZ. We just need to find them or for them to find us. Lets see what turns up next.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## grandpamac

> Seeing as semi's are now gone,maybe there will be a resurgence in the classic bolt action milsurp rifles.There will still be quantities of such rifles in storage around the world, but they must surely be hard to find now even with the huge numbers manufactured in the past.I have always had a bit of a fetish for Mauser carbines myself.....


Greetings GDMP and All,
Agreed. An excellent point. Lets hope some see the benefits of looking after and feeding some old soldier rather than hosing down cardboard soldiers with cheapo mil spec ammo, much more rewarding in the end. As Scout has found there lots of rifles looking for a new home in NZ. We just need to find them or for them to find us. Lets see what turns up next.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## kotuku

> @Cordite a quick think about it would suggest that while you could just cut and shut the bolt, the physical clockwise action of closing the bolt couldn't be changed that easily. You would then have a bolt that would be pointing straight up when you were ready to fire.
> don't know about a left handed one. Doubt if they did it for the military-you were just trained to use it the way it was designed. I cant remember the source but it suggested that the majority of soldiers weren't familiar with firearms anyway so it is less of an issue to teach a lefty to shoot right handed then make a bunch of rifles for a minority
> Did find this comment on another forum:
> 
> "There were no left handed service rifles, leftys became proficient at using the rifle in right handed fashion under the gentle ministrations of Sergeants and other Non-Coms. I have seen a 303 from Qld at the Nationals where the bolt handle had been extended and bent back over the striker in such a fashion as to be readily manipulated with the left hand without having to reach over the stock or moving the head too much, and this enabled the shooter to use the left shoulder with ease."


Ima true cackhander and have no major problems using normal firearms >im also a tightarse and im not paying an extra $100.00 simply for a LHmodel.
During my Tf careerall drill prior to firng done right handed -lasrt min flick to left shoulder to fire .did had some probs with ejection of5.56 cases from m16 causing a facial burn but easily sorted throwing shoulder forward shotty style .bren -nup right hand all the way left handed looks like an octopus trying to molest itself!
all my present arms cause me no probs whatsoever including the grand old dame my 1943 No4 Mk1*longbranch .303

----------


## kotuku

somewhere in my collection of old NZ hunting mags i have an article on a DIY gunsmith/farmer whose skills created about 9 different versions of our beloved .303
one of interest was a no4 which he rebarreled with an arisaka?? barrel set further back plus modified bolt face in effect making it 7.62x39-apparently with pigs a scourge on the farm it was a race to grab this and go deal .apparently all of his kids took pigs with it.bloody fascinating article to read and photos as well.
must see if i can find it amongst gear+++++++++++.
my 180gnrounds trundel along around 2100-2200FPS but the impact is the important one. 
regarding the scorn of some writers .(without names)one stated quite flatly given the differences between .303/.308  either was a bloody effective killer if used properly and he'd yet to see an animalthat knew the diference when dropped.
another rather quixotically condemned the .30 to history in modern hunting but in the next paragraph states hed be keen on a 7.62x39 for bush hunting inside 150m range .
 ballistics charts ive consulted generally show both rounds to have same specs give or take a few FPS so Im rather bemused.

----------


## Scout

Well I think a good time & thread maybe to post a warning on shooting off Old ammo, ALWAYS wear shooting glasses & ear protection !!

I mowed the lawn & thought ill stick a mag through that 303 I just got, I had checked & cleaned barrel, it looks good, all matching numbers so didn't check head space (to be fair I normally shoot all sorts of bitser 303's)  fulled up the mag with some old millitary rounds, all looked to be in good nick (again I shoot some terrible condition ammo but this was nice) stuck some ear muffs on SANS safety glasses (picked them up, dirty & have trouble seeing sights even with clean ones & only shooting a mag ! ?) shot like a Mad Minute & second to last round blew up, got a bit of crap in the eye & a little in the face, good really from the look of the case, no primer to be found !

The rest of the fired cases looked fine .

----------


## csmiffy

ouch-literally dodged a bullet there. To be fair it isn't the nicest looking bit of brass around

----------


## Scout

Looked the same as that unfired cartridge before firing, I don't actually know why it failed ?

----------


## csmiffy

that is a bugger then. Cant be too much of the rifles fault. You would've thought it would do it to a heap of them not just one. 
Split at the neck and down by the rim/web
Chamber might be a bit loose.
Considering that as per some of our PM's my P14 has a way bigger chamber than a couple of my lee enfields as I found out.

----------


## northdude

is it still under warranty

----------


## kotuku

ive had head/case seperations occur periodically when attempting to eject fired cases (milsurp).actually iwas even given a specific .303case  removal tool found in 2Cant NMWC  RQMS in the KEB in CHCH.the RQMSat time reckoned i was uglier than a fired.303 mangier than an unfed lab and the fact i was a"nuit nurse"scared the shit out of him .thanking you wo1Steve Witton
"hey you spotty herbert"
now ant round with a bright ring between case /head -out is goes no execeptions.a rattale rasp willaslo remove jammed broken cases if youre desperate.
Old bloke at deerstalkers shoot told me a cup of boiling vinegar down ya barrel periodically if using milsurp ammo  will clean out any shit &corrosive crap!
barrel dries quick with a shine any RSM would cry over!!

----------


## Scout

> is it still under warranty


Haha, right should have a go at CAC then, it has something to do with the 80yr old ammo !

Just thought I would post it as a reminder, I normally do wear safety glasses when shooting off crappy looking or old ammo in Older rifles !

----------


## Cordite

> Looked the same as that unfired cartridge before firing, I don't actually know why it failed ?


It the primer, usually potassium chlorate based, had mercury fulminate in it, could it have embrittled the case even if unfired? 70 yrs is a long time to store it, not designed to cope with that, mercury does evaporate even from amalgam tooth fillings and deposits on metals, why not internally in the cartridge?  Give it enough time and the effect may be significant.  Mercury fulminate primers are required to be made of copper, not brass, so the colour of the primers may give a clue.

I've had apparently good ww2 ammo split nearly every neck of a bandolier of 50, but again don't know if there was mercury fulminate in British/CAC primers.

Here's some cleaner ammo, but it might still split the necks at least.



As for splitting at the base... don't think mercury embrittling would do that.  The base of cartridge is meant to be hard, the same reason we never anneal the base of a cartridge.  I'd look for some reason the gun was just not supporting the cartridge base.

----------


## northdude

hope this isnt going to far off course but how about the 303 25 how good was that round always been curious do i need one a bit of aussie history

----------


## Scout

I don't think it was the rifle as the other 8 + one I shot after it were Ok but I have shot WAY worse looking ammo than this, it is 1940 & not a patch on your creamy looking ammo    @Cordite !

I have shot a heap of WW1 stuff & even 215gr Boer War ammo, all went well no problem, now case seps yes but that is normally too much head space with missed match bolt or such !   

25/303 was a great round back in the day, did same work as .243 really & we used a bit of 22/303 on Roo's & Pigs (head shoot Pigs), did the job of 222Rem - 22/250, we went to 222Rem when nicer rifles came along in the form of Tikka & Sako, then 223Rem in Sako & CMC Mountaineer/Howa  !

----------


## Marty Henry

I have had the same failure with adi 223 brass, 1 case in about 1000 fired. The primer what was left of it fell out.
I would say it was a flawed case. 
I see the rounds have nickel jackets and the headstamp shows 1946. I thought they stopped using nickel in the 30s.

----------


## Scout

My bad photo, it's a 1940 head stamp (I have said that twice before) & a few with it are 41 & yes all Nickel.

I have noticed if I shoot a heap of Nickel full metal jackets out of rough bores it seems to help clean them up !

----------


## GDMP

I reckon something like the Yugo/Zastava model 63 carbine might do quite well here.....they are a very short mauser carbine in military trim that was still listed on the Zastava website until about 3 years ago,newly made not cut down from older rifles.

----------


## GDMP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfHeJzvCVZ0

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings All,
Hatcher has an illustration of a head crack like that in his book. He found the cause to be an off center primer crimp that over hardened one side of the case head. In other words a manufacturing fault. The neck crack is from what is called season cracking. This is a natural hardening of the brass over time even in unfired cases. CAC cases, even late production sporting cases were prone to it. The case neck was likely cracked when it went in the chamber. Its my understanding that primers to all CAC military ammunition was both mercuric and corrosive. To Scout the apparent improved condition of your bore after firing cupro nickel jacketed projectiles was likely due to copper fouling (incorrectly called nickel fouling) from the jacket. This was a problem with that type of projectile only solved when jackets were changed to gilding metal. The copper needs to be cleaned out periodically with a copper solvent. Sorry about that.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## kotuku

> Greetings All,
> Hatcher has an illustration of a head crack like that in his book. He found the cause to be an off center primer crimp that over hardened one side of the case head. In other words a manufacturing fault. The neck crack is from what is called season cracking. This is a natural hardening of the brass over time even in unfired cases. CAC cases, even late production sporting cases were prone to it. The case neck was likely cracked when it went in the chamber. Its my understanding that primers to all CAC military ammunition was both mercuric and corrosive. To Scout the apparent improved condition of your bore after firing cupro nickel jacketed projectiles was likely due to copper fouling (incorrectly called nickel fouling) from the jacket. This was a problem with that type of projectile only solved when jackets were changed to gilding metal. The copper needs to be cleaned out periodically with a copper solvent. Sorry about that.
> Regards Grandpamac.


Thank you kindly for that info .Seems consistent with what Ive experienced

----------


## Scout

Lol  @grandpamac, thank you for that, yes I think it is the case to, the neck wasn't split until fired but for sure CAC are the worst for that & as you say even later sporting rounds, not normally a danger like a ruptured case head I think ?

On the Nickeling/copper fouling, that sounds good but I have done a bit also & know copper fouling, in these old barrels firing messy old ammo (the other was a 6.5X53R) & folks haven't cleaned them, I have used a bottle of bore cleaner & a few brushes to get the build up of crap out of the bore but found on the 6.5 that the 160gr full patch (ah hell could be steel as a magnet sticks to them) cleaned up the bore a treat & thought these may do the same as in the pass some 215gr slugs helped in a heavily fouled bore  !

----------


## Kiwi Sapper

> Yes, the Americans have a thing for "scout rifles".  No real NZ equivalent, and "bushpig" does not quite have the same cool factor.


I have already suggested the # 5 as a suitable "scout rifle" and now put forward my second "carbine" as a candidate, the Spanish FR 8 chambered for .308 

a video..........https://tinyurl.com/y9rytfvg

----------


## Scout

Gee guys neither of those Mauser rifles are in the Dreadnought 303 theme Eh ?

----------


## csmiffy

like the top 2
second one is a lees speed cavalry model?
The bolt shroud/cover smooths them out nicely
Interested to hear about the cleaning. Always knew about the hot water but after putting only a couple of old military rounds down the barrel thought just a normal clean with collings 90 would suffice. Lucky its not a mint barrel

----------


## Cordite

> Gee guys neither of those Mauser rifles are in the Dreadnought 303 theme Eh ?


Love the bottom one, that Mannlicher style full wood and nose cap is a beaut, and improves that ugly No 5 forend...

The Spanish FR8 is kinda cool, with the cleaning kit tube looking like a gas port and the CETME flash hider with wire cutting notches (designed to position the muzzle in line with the target wire).  Put a 10-round mag on her and you'll get a AOS callout after passing some trampers.  But alas, yes, .308, so another thread.

Here's one that could approximate to a .303 "scout" rifle.  It's an uugly contraption, including the cobbled stock extender but it works.  Screwed a picatinny rail to the left side of the receiver, some filing in the aluminium required, and put offset 1" scope rings on this, resulting in the scope riding just enough off midline to not obstruct charger loading. It is currently dismantled and will instead have a 1x red dot scope in the rings once I'm done with it.



And don't ask about the hole under the barrel.  It is quite shot out so may have been a wall hanger.

----------


## csmiffy

just spotted the tang safety on the top one-nice. Like the fish belly style mag more than the straight taper

----------


## zimmer

> Lol  @grandpamac, thank you for that, yes I think it is the case to, the neck wasn't split until fired but for sure CAC are the worst for that & as you say even later sporting rounds, not normally a danger like a ruptured case head I think ?


A bit of trivia -

Interesting comments re CAC quality. When I left school I joined a fullbore club. At the time we were using CAC 58 ammo which was excellent for accuracy. Club members paid 18/6 for 75 round which was about 3 pence a shot! This was just pre decimal currency. I recently gave away a part tub of 75 rounds of this vintage and it was still excellent with no splitting issues when shot.

When I was in the fullbore club we had an annual service rifle type shoot. For this the army gave us ex WW2 ammo (this was back in the days when civilian marksmenship was encouraged). I cannot remember exactly the headstamp marking of the ammo (I dont think it was CAC) but it came in sealed tins and was absolutely terrible accuracy wise. No splits though as the ammo was still quite young (like me then  :Sad:  ) at that stage.

A few years ago, when I still had my No 4 Fulton, I bought a lot of milsurp 303 from SAI. It had what appeared to be Arabic markings on the headstamp. My first (and only) outing with it I shot a stunning 5 shot group, then continued on to 10 shots at which point the groups disintegrated. On checking the bore it was plated from one end to the other with Cu. It took me around a day to remove the Cu.

Moving on to around 1968/69 fullbore clubs started to change to 7.62x52. The ammo was manufactured by CAC. To this day the brass alloy they used for cases is still held in high esteem it is also quite weight consistent. I know of a few FTR shooters still using it. I still have a large amount but now use Lapua. May the CAC drag it out and anneal it and use it again.

----------


## Scout

@zimmer did you shoot at the Waiuku Full Bore Club by chance, I went a few times with my Great Uncle Louis & it was great fun, wish I had kept some of those Card Board tubes the 75rd tubes were in, by a keep sake now ?

Yes that CAC ammo was great, I was thinking it was 56-57 or 58 & hitting the Center Bull at 1000yds with open sights lol !!

Uncle Louis still out shot me easy, even if we had to help him up !

----------


## bumblefoot

Interestingly; I've never liked Mannlicher stocks! Give me a Jungle Carbine any day ha ha  :Wink:  And; being a boring old fart; hate the "bush pig" name..... When i was a kid in the late 70's I used to look at the ads from the surplus store that were in dad's old farm mags and want one of their $26 brand spanking new/in grease Jungle Carbines......

----------


## zimmer

> @zimmer did you shoot at the Waiuku Full Bore Club by chance, I went a few times with my Great Uncle Louis & it was great fun, wish I had kept some of those Card Board tubes the 75rd tubes were in, by a keep sake now ?
> 
> Yes that CAC ammo was great, I was thinking it was 56-57 or 58 & hitting the Center Bull at 1000yds with open sights lol !!
> 
> Uncle Louis still out shot me easy, even if we had to help him up !


 @Scout the club I joined at the time was the Wanganui Rifle Club. Long since gone due to farm division/sell off, lifestyle blocks encroachment, dieing off of members, negative change in public perception of shooting sports........

Quite strange. I can remember all the "old guys" at the ckub who looking back now were in actual fact much younger than I am.

My first No 4 was purchased from the army. I cannot remember if clubs had a special arrangement but I filled in some forms, bought £5 in money orders and sent off to Linton army camp. Some time later I got notification from my local post office (2 storey brick building of the day, long gone) that they had a parcel due for my collection. Went in, teller passed over parcel heavily wrapped in brown paper. No mistaking the outline. Teller or other customers didn't react like people would today. The rifle was a 2 groove essential brand new except for square bashing damage to the stock.

My new rifle was promptly snaffled away by one of the "old guys" at tge club to be bedded. When I got it back he had also made me a set of different width foresight posts for the different ranges shot. All nicely dovetailed to fit the modified stump of the original foresight.

----------


## zimmer

Club not ckub. Crazy thing won't let me edit.

----------


## Marty Henry

I brought my first from sportsways in downtown auckland and took it home on the bus. I think it cost $17 it was a 2 groove longbranch. I shot at clevedon  when the range was up twilight? Road. There was an annual military shoot, and while no one offered to bed my rifle I was given a parker hale 5c aperture for it which improved things quite markedly.

----------


## Boxton

Mannlicher style is bloody nice
Actually.. farking nice

----------


## northdude

can never have to many pics

----------


## Mangle

That mannlicher stock is stunning...anyone know anymore about that rifle ?

----------


## norsk

I bought my first 303 off my Dad's boss for $60,it came with a 100 rounds of Ammo.

My second one I bought at 17 years old on a road trip to Invercargill,I paid $101 for it from a Shop in Dunedin,it's a MK3 and also came with a bunch of Ammo and a Bayonet.I lived in Waimate at the time and used the ammo 
shooting Wallibies  and Goats.

20 years later I bought another 303 in a shop in Timaru,again with a bunch of Ammo.My now wife and I spent an evening walking the Hunter Hills shooting Roo's.The biggest part of New Zealand that I truely miss is the freedom to hunt unhindered by too many rules.

Try your best to keep it that way.

----------


## Rusky

I have a 303 parker hale with scope mounted on it. Cant shoot past 100 yards without going all over the place. Pity as it has history and been in the family.

----------


## grandpamac

> I have a 303 parker hale with scope mounted on it. Cant shoot past 100 yards without going all over the place. Pity as it has history and been in the family.


Greetings Rusky,
Some of the scope mounts used on .303 rifles can be pretty dodgy. If the rifle has iron sights it could be worth taking the scope off and testing with those and some modern ammo.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Tussock

Said a while back I would have to get a  270 and a 303 and see if I can enjoy them, after my first rifles were not so flash. 

I bought a sporterised Lee Enfield with a non matching Monte Carlo rear stock for $185 from Allan Millard in Dunedin. 

Took it to Fiordland and all my first hunts. Shot a few pics with it. Missed everything else. 

I had a hard time hitting the A4 paper at 25m

My solution was to sit and shoot heavy loads off a bench at the 25m target. The aim was to get better. Largely I just exacerbated my flinch. 

Took it goat hunting where there were masses of goats. Missed everything. 

Going to have to get one and learn to shoot it or accept my shooting credentials are incomplete.

----------


## Tentman

> Said a while back I would have to get a  270 and a 303 and see if I can enjoy them, after my first rifles were not so flash. 
> 
> I bought a sporterised Lee Enfield with a non matching Monte Carlo rear stock for $185 from Allan Millard in Dunedin. 
> 
> Took it to Fiordland and all my first hunts. Shot a few pics with it. Missed everything else. 
> 
> I had a hard time hitting the A4 paper at 25m
> 
> My solution was to sit and shoot heavy loads off a bench at the 25m target. The aim was to get better. Largely I just exacerbated my flinch. 
> ...


In the bad old days saw lots of young guys do this, and end up with a similar result flinchwise, largely due to not wearing good earmuffs.  Wear good Earmuffs when target shooting!!

----------


## Tussock

> In the bad old days saw lots of young guys do this, and end up with a similar result flinchwise, largely due to not wearing good earmuffs.  Wear good Earmuffs when target shooting!!


You are absolutely right

Eventually I worked out I had a noise flinch not a recoil flinch

Plugs + muffs sorted it

----------


## Gapped axe

Loved the calibre, shot a few animals with different ones, but my favourite was the Jungle Carbine for sure. Wished i had never moved it on.

----------


## Tussock

> Loved the calibre, shot a few animals with different ones, but my favourite was the Jungle Carbine for sure. Wished i had never moved it on.


I would love a jungle carbine. It suits the chambering.

I think the obsession with high speed projectiles is behind us. 

Might I just say,  that a great big 180gr 30 cal soft point, that is good and soft and not going too fast, does a very very good job of making stuff dead. 

I recall a pig I shot, opening the diaphragm and finding nothing much left behind it.

----------


## Cordite

> That mannlicher stock is stunning...anyone know anymore about that rifle ?


Nicest sporterisation of a No 4 I've ever seen.  And the Mannlicher snub nose is in keeping with the No 1 Mk III heritage.

Here's another one, a .25 conversion of a No 1 Mk III, several photos.  http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...er-conversion&

Just need the correct nose cap, like this one at Brownell's.

----------


## johnd

Just to keep the thread going, here's a couple of veterans.
Just before lockdown a friend loaned me these, to fire at distance.
I never shot the Lee as its sights were in poor repair.
The P14 was better and actually has a shinny bore, I shot some old CAC ammo and returned some on paper shots at 300 and 600 yards I think from memory it gave 2 to 3 MOA at those distances.
Sadly for my friend I still have them, and with any luck he has completely forgotten about them.

----------


## Frogfeatures

1901 MLE
1943 Lithgow No 1 Mk 111*

----------


## bumblefoot

> Loved the calibre, shot a few animals with different ones, but my favourite was the Jungle Carbine for sure. Wished i had never moved it on.


 @Gapped axe The surplus store that used to advertise in the back of dad's farm mags also had new M1 carbines for sale as well as Jungle carbines..... I was about 15 and wanted both sooooooo badly!

----------


## grunzter

1942 Lithgow No1 MkIII, 1943 Longbranch No4 Mk1*, 1945 No5 Mk1... will make the wood look better when i can get around to it...

----------


## Gapped axe

I do remember something around those Carbines being advertised. I paid $80 for mine about 32 yrs ago. I had ruger 44mag but the bloody thing used to load it self when pushing throu thick scrub or cutty grass.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> @Gapped axe The surplus store that used to advertise in the back of dad's farm mags also had new M1 carbines for sale as well as Jungle carbines..... I was about 15 and wanted both sooooooo badly!


Valentines - they advertised in the Listener back when it was full sized. I went to their Gisborne shop in the 70's - what a fantastic place.

----------


## bumblefoot

@Ross Nolan   That's right it was in them too. I mostly remember it in the farm mag as I used to eagerly wait for them to arrive so I could see what was available. They used to have "Brit Army packs" with WW2 helmets, gasmasks etc as a package deal. The US Vietnam, era gear was being sold cheap too :-)

----------


## tonyd

Theres definatly a bit of interest in full wood original ones now. Did anyone here see that  .303 longbranch no4 T sniper rifle sell on trademe last night!

----------


## tiroahunta

> Valentines - they advertised in the Listener back when it was full sized. I went to their Gisborne shop in the 70's - what a fantastic place.


Ahhh...I remember Valentines in Barton Street Hamilton. Went there once. It was heaven for a young kid right into military stuff. I just just didnt have the pocket money to get anything at the time. When we went back it had changed...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## hebe

I'm looking to get myself one and hopefully shoot a deer over open sights with it, as well as wearing/using as much older equipment as I can find. 

A fellow forum member is loaning me his one which is bloody good of him. Hopefully I can bag a goat or two to get my eye in and then go after sika with one.
 The main goal will be to get a sika over my dog with an open sight 303, and I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun trying to get there!

----------


## hebe

> I'm looking to get myself one and hopefully shoot a deer over open sights with it, as well as wearing/using as much older equipment as I can find. 
> 
> A fellow forum member is loaning me his one which is bloody good of him. Hopefully I can bag a goat or two to get my eye in and then go after sika with one.
>  The main goal will be to get a sika over my dog with an open sight 303, and I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun trying to get there!



Update. Have gotten hold of an open sight .303 (borrowed from a fellow forum user) and on my first outing I managed to shoot 9 goats over the dog with it at distances ranging from 5-6 yards to about 120 odd. 

I think I'm converted.

----------


## Cordite

> A recrown/ *barrel sleeving* may be in order. But as above check all mounting hardware.
> Try Sellier Belliot 150gn, and if they don't shoot, try 180gn.


A barrel liner is appealing as most LEs have worn (out) barrels. There is a sound economic argument of just replacing the entire barrel, which also discards every historical stamp and serial number. But does anyone in NZ do barrel relining?

----------


## GDMP

Barrel relining is not cheap and is generally best suited to lower power calibers.......not full power hunting or military calibers like the .303.Making a new barrel from a blank for a lee enfield is not difficult though,I have done several over the years.The problem is that new barrels are so expensive now,even in blank form,that it makes re-barrelling such rifles not really viable economically.

----------


## Maxx

> Update. Have gotten hold of an open sight .303 (borrowed from a fellow forum user) and on my first outing I managed to shoot 9 goats over the dog with it at distances ranging from 5-6 yards to about 120 odd. 
> 
> I think I'm converted.
> 
> 
> Attachment 140396
> Attachment 140395


How's the dogs ears?

----------


## Cordite

> How's the dogs ears?


Probably keeps whining, head on a swivel looking around for another dog continuously whining somewhere nearby.

----------


## hebe

> How's the dogs ears?


I shoot a suppressed 7mm08 over him normally so he got a bit of a fright..in saying that he seemed to be pretty happy letting me walk infront of him to shoot once he had indicated on a couple. Hardcase how they figure things out.

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings All,
After seeing all those photo's of pristine Lee Enfields a few pages back I thought I would share a couple of my scoped .303.
Almost every major component has been altered (others may use the words bubba'd or bodgered depending on country of origin) but it has an excellent barrel and shoots really well.
Grandpamac.

----------


## bumblefoot

C'mon everyone..... No more pics of lovely 303's without an X-rated R18 warning please..... They are just too nice.......  :Wink:

----------


## grandpamac

> C'mon everyone..... No more pics of lovely 303's without an X-rated R18 warning please..... They are just too nice.......


Thank you Bumblefoot and Cordite,
Yes it is something rather different isn't it. In spite of the rather unique stock I find it comfortable to shoot and the trigger (also altered) is quite reasonable. It also once belonged to a departed friend so it will not be sold? traded or given away at least not by me.
Grandpamac.

----------


## 40mm

> No resurgence... I never stopped!
> 
> I shoot it with BP loads, so it's a proper smoke-pole.


Hey pal, do you use cast bullets? if so I am keen to pick your brains... I slugged my bore and from memory it was .313 or .314 so Ill need a large mould...

----------


## grandpamac

> Hey pal, do you use cast bullets? if so I am keen to pick your brains... I slugged my bore and from memory it was .313 or .314 so Ill need a large mould...


Greetings 40 mm,
I did a little bit with cast bullets over 40 years ago with limited success (due to my profound ignorance at the time). I am thinking of getting back into it. I still have a couple of 30 calibre moulds so will probably start with them, I don't think I would go as far as Mimms2 with black powder though
Grandpamac.

----------


## on2it

Talking about 40 years ago, it always amuses me when people get anxious at ranges over 300 yards
40 years ago as a kid I shot a 30 through peep sights at 300, 600, and 900 yards every week over summer
Every now and then I could get on the target at 900 :-)
Despite being tiny (8 stone say) I never had any trouble with a flinch although my shoulder knew I'd done 20 rounds...
It's all good

----------


## grandpamac

> No, thankfully cheap shit jacketed 150gn SPs shoot as accurately as the gun does. They're probably pretty soft lead, and the jacket forms the "gas check" so in a way... kind of.
> I can't remember what the bore mik'd at, and 174gn wont shoot for shit in it, so it's really about finding something yours likes.
> 
> is it shooternz on here who does boolits? Seen the name mentioned a few times.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, brass but plate and full house loads are pretty punishing. I added a limbsaver to "fix" length of pull, adding about 1.5" and it also makes it a joy to shoot even with factory. BP is a nice soft whumpf.
> Once upon a time I shot 900 with aperture sights, all rounds in 36". .303 Creedmore


.303 Creedmoor! I like it. As modern as tomorrow compared to the original 44-60 and 44-100 Creedmoor cartridges from around 1880.
Grandpamac.

----------


## grandpamac

> I had never heard of them. .44 (minie ball?) in front of 100gn BP would have done the business!


The projectile was 520 to 550 grains and shot over long range out to 1,000 yards on the Creedmoor Range in New York. Velocity was 1,300 to 1,400 fps. Similar to the cartridges used in the US now for black powder metallic silhouette which is shot out to 500 metres.
Grandpamac.

----------


## kotuku

my beloved.303 no4 mk1 is the quen of my collection-I do not give a iota of avian fornication regarding opinions about its deficiencies or age cause if i have to reach for it -tis a bloody serious issue and whats more when ilet a 180gn  soft nose go off a short run up aint ever seen anyone (even a bloody aussie) wanna take on the wicketkeeper job.
 I dontfirethe old sheila often but when i do wow the result is pretty spectacular !! 
No its not for sale-its my version of an 18"naval gun!!
add to my collection -a 7.57 mauser -mate had a mannlicher schoaneur with 4x81 pecar scope -butter on a hot knife
the immortal 7.62x51 SLR-heavy as fuck but as reliaible as a D8 dozer-plus its company for the big sis .303

----------


## Micky Duck

> The projectile was 520 to 550 grains and shot over long range out to 1,000 yards on the Creedmoor Range in New York. Velocity was 1,300 to 1,400 fps. Similar to the cartridges used in the US now for black powder metallic silhouette which is shot out to 500 metres.
> Grandpamac.


so along the lines of the .45/90 and the .45/110 just slightly skinnier barrel ???????

----------


## grandpamac

> so along the lines of the .45/90 and the .45/110 just slightly skinnier barrel ???????


Yes Micky,
The 44-100 Remington (Creedmoor) was a specialty load of the 44-90 Remington Straight intended for long range shooting, out to 1,400 yards. It had a 2.6 inch case. One of the go to cartridges for Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette shooting is the 45-90 aka 45-82 and 45-85 Winchester which has a 2.4 inch case. They shoot at silhouette's out to 500 metres (standing at 200 metres and prone with a crossed stick rest for the longer ranges) with iron sights. There is a class using period style scope sights for the old fudds as well. Black powder shooting is a rabbit hole I have not gone down, at least not yet.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Bol Tackshin

7.7 Creedmoor, anyone?  :Thumbsup:  let's keep it metric and modern!

----------


## Cordite

> 7.7 Creedmoor, anyone?  let's keep it metric and modern!


SAAMI may accept *7.7x56R Victoria*

----------


## grandpamac

> 7.7 Creedmoor, anyone?  let's keep it metric and modern!


Lets all remember that the 7.7 x 56 mm cartridge aka .303 was designed as a metric rimless cartridge by a Major Rubin in Switzerland. The only input the Brits had was to put a rim on it.
Grandpamac.

----------


## bumblefoot

Saw this on TM today; interesting. A rebarrelled Number 4 Mk2 .303 in excellent condition. Damn expensive; but interesting never the less! 

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/marketpl...ng/2937886324?

----------


## Kiwi Sapper

This springs to mind............




as does over capitalisation ..........May i be proven wrong.

----------


## Cordite

> Saw this on TM today; interesting. A rebarrelled Number 4 Mk2 .303 in excellent condition. Damn expensive; but interesting never the less! 
> 
> https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/marketpl...ng/2937886324?


Seller is a truly great guy, passionate about NZ shooting sports. Not out to rip anyone off.

----------


## Ingrid 51

I bought a 1943 No4 Mk1 star Longbranch on Sunday. It’s been refurbished and appears to have a new Criterion? Barrel fitted. All matching numbers, including forewood. Has what appears to be armoury stamp on the wrist like the Swedes did with their rifles. Also has NZ stampings. Shot it a couple of days ago using surplus Greek ammo. Not as accurate as any of my Swedes, but a completely different experience. I believe I will get used to it, esp now the trigger has loosened up so first and second stage are discernible.

----------


## northdude

Yea the old 3 ohs dont come anywhere near the sweeds

----------


## Micky Duck

> I bought a 1943 No4 Mk1 star Longbranch on Sunday. It’s been refurbished and appears to have a new Criterion? Barrel fitted. All matching numbers, including forewood. Has what appears to be armoury stamp on the wrist like the Swedes did with their rifles. Also has NZ stampings. Shot it a couple of days ago using surplus Greek ammo. Not as accurate as any of my Swedes, but a completely different experience. I believe I will get used to it, esp now the trigger has loosened up so first and second stage are discernible.


try box of 150 and box of 180 sporting stuff...one of the two will make it hum.....most SMLEs prefer one over the other.....if you have as you believe got one with a good barrel...for the love of God look after it,treasure it and clean it regularly...... I have fond memories of hunting with the 303.....funny having just purchased new rifle the comments about them are mostly good but folks whinge about 2 stage trigger......and its heavy......obvious they never cut teeth on a SMLE.....
if you going to reload...get in touch with shootersnz/Robert  he will sort you out with cast projectiles to feed the ol girl.... if you want low recoil (heck all 303 loads are low recoil) try some projectiles made for the 7.62x39mm   123grns   loads of folks have had them work well...and if your barrel is new and unworn they should work even better.

----------


## Ben-tard

> I bought a 1943 No4 Mk1 star Longbranch on Sunday. It’s been refurbished and appears to have a new Criterion? Barrel fitted. All matching numbers, including forewood. Has what appears to be armoury stamp on the wrist like the Swedes did with their rifles. Also has NZ stampings. Shot it a couple of days ago using surplus Greek ammo. Not as accurate as any of my Swedes, but a completely different experience. I believe I will get used to it, esp now the trigger has loosened up so first and second stage are discernible.


I did the same thing a few months ago using GCs Greek surplus and was all over the place but 180gr PPU was bang on for my no4mk1*

----------


## kiwiaviator

I shot my first deer with a Lee Enfield .303 Still have it. It has the long range sights on the side. I also had access to some aged ammo courtesy of my grandfather who was a gun collector and gunsmith. One day, I was wandering along a Urewera ridge and came face to face with a pig. Bolt closed, click...... All of a sudden all hell broke loose with her and piglets running everywhere. Very comical. I left the bolt engaged for a while after that. Tried firing that round later and it worked. After that, no more 50 year old ammo. Photo of grandad and I in his gunroom mid 70's I'm guessing. This was only one wall.

----------


## Ingrid 51

Thanks for advice guys. As a retiree, I intend to cherish this acquisition the same as I do my Swedes. I actually like the military trigger as was brought up with it. Will try a range of ammo as suggested.

----------


## bunji

Whoa @kiwiaviator ,l bet your grandad was a great Old School character, can you share any more details or photos etc ie how/why/when did he start collecting,did he have a particular favorite type he collected or a favorite gun from his collection . The older you get the more you realise what a shame a lot of these types of stories are lost too history apart from the immediate family .IMO if you have anymore info you would like to share it deserves its own post it would be of that much interest here,either way thanks for sharing . :Thumbsup:

----------


## kiwiaviator

> Whoa @kiwiaviator ,l bet your grandad was a great Old School character, can you share any more details or photos etc ie how/why/when did he start collecting,did he have a particular favorite type he collected or a favorite gun from his collection . The older you get the more you realise what a shame a lot of these types of stories are lost too history apart from the immediate family .IMO if you have anymore info you would like to share it deserves its own post it would be of that much interest here,either way thanks for sharing .


All good bunji. Unfortunately I don't have access to more photos etc as I'm stuck overseas until this pandemic settles a bit. Henry Victor "Vic" Ormond lived in Te Puke from the early '70's to his passing in 2008. He had a gunsmith workshop at his home and there was almost always someone there having a chat. He was also a very active Acclimatisation Society Ranger. My love of hunting, fishing and the outdoors came from him and my father.

----------


## Rees

the Cartridge Yes, not so much those old wood smelly clunky things that made the 303 famous  :Grin:

----------


## dogmatix

Missed this thread somehow.

My three complete Enfields

1917 SSA III* bitsa rebuild
1942 Lithgow No1Mk3*
1942 Longbranch No4Mk1*



Have another 1915 BSA III butchered for parts and a 1917 Enfield III* I'm leaving sporterised but I'm in the process of giving some love to.

----------


## bumblefoot

@dogmatix Please apply a XXX rating to such pics in the future please!  :Grin:

----------


## dogmatix

> @dogmatix Please apply a XXX rating to such pics in the future please!


Wait to you see Ray Trembath's milsurp collection!

----------


## Jusepy

Hey anyone have a 303 enfield slingfor sale ? Thought this would be the best place to ask

----------


## dogmatix

Send forum member 'private joker' a PM.

----------


## Jusepy

After picking up my 303 tonight , and reading this thread....'
Im looking forward to putting a few rounds through my "new" 30

----------


## Carbine

might have to dust off my Churchill 303 sporter and scope the old bitch up

----------


## Tedz50

I have my fathers .303 BSA re-barrel which he bought before I was born [now in my seventies ] Was first gun I used on big game,and I may take it out again.

----------


## Rees

just stepping into the world of cast for the 303 as a plinking load, save the jackets for hunting-  had no luck testing today but possibly running them too fast , will need to dick around with it more than i thought haha- soo it can wait for another day-
still happy with the speer hot cor 311s and 174 ppsn 312s though.

----------


## Tedz50

This thread has been a nostalgia trip for me.Of the 5 .303's I own this one will be pried from my cold dead hands.

----------


## Carbine

Looks abit dirty should cerakote it to tidy it up abit  :Psmiley:

----------


## bumblefoot

Time to get back to reloading ammo for my old WW2 1944 No1 Mk3 SMLE Lee Enfield .303!

----------


## Finnwolf

This thread made me dig out my 1942 Long Branch ‘3-oh’ that had been sporterised and barrel shortened and what looks like a home made foresight, the rear is still has the two position battlesight.

Forgotten it has the two groove rifling (in average condition)

Were many two grooves made and what accuracy did they have?

----------


## bumblefoot

> This thread made me dig out my 1942 Long Branch ‘3-oh’ that had been sporterised and barrel shortened and what looks like a home made foresight, the rear is still has the two position battlesight.
> 
> Forgotten it has the two groove rifling (in average condition) Were many two grooves made and what accuracy did they have?


 @grandpamac

----------


## hamish9701

> This thread made me dig out my 1942 Long Branch 3-oh that had been sporterised and barrel shortened and what looks like a home made foresight, the rear is still has the two position battlesight.
> 
> Forgotten it has the two groove rifling (in average condition)
> 
> Were many two grooves made and what accuracy did they have?


No clue how many were made but from what I have read it was faster and easier to produce and apparently had minimal effects on accuracy (they still had to pass the same tests). But it must have made some difference because they went back to 6 groove eventually. Someone else will probably have real experience and advice on this

----------


## Cordite

> This thread made me dig out my 1942 Long Branch ‘3-oh’ that had been sporterised and barrel shortened and what looks like a home made foresight, the rear is still has the two position battlesight.
> 
> Forgotten it has the two groove rifling (in average condition)
> 
> Were many two grooves made and what accuracy did they have?


I've heard of some No 4 (T) two-groovers.  

It was a manufacturing expediency to only cut two grooves, as rifling machines cut one groove at a time, but the two-groove barrels had to be shown to pass accuracy standards or this timesaving idea would simply not have been given approval.

Once button rifling came in, where each groove is made simultaneously by drawing or pushing a button through the barrel there was no advantage in two groove rifling. If anything, for button rifling it would take extreme force to make 2 deep+wide grooves rather than 5 or 6 small grooves.

----------


## AMac

Great thread - the 3 O is such a part of hunting history in NZ great to see such enthusiasm for the old rifles.

When my Dad died I ended up with his sporterized SMLE which he did a lot of hunting with in the 1950's to 1960's in Canterbury where he had access to a property in Lees Valley I think the owner of the property's name was Less Burnett. Dad used to reckon that in summer he would hop on his motor bike after knocking off work and ride up to the valley with the rifle over his back and reckon he could have a deer well before dark.  It had a parker hale aperture site adjustable for windage and elevation, initially he shot it right hand, but when that eye weakened he swapped over and shot it left hand - something the feels so uncomfortable to me. Eventually he put a 4x Nikko Sterling scope on it that I gave him but I can't remember if he went back to shooting with his right eye.  He could shoot pretty well with it - I can remember him knocking goats off a bluff up behind the bach shooting off his knees would have been 1970's - I have since ranged these at 400m+ he said he was taught to shoot when he had to do compulsory military training in the 1950's after leaving school. 

It spent along time in the ceiling space above their garage - when I got the rifle I could see a long dark patch half way down the barrel and no amount of cleaning made any difference took it to the range and could hardly hit a A4 sheet of paper at 50m. 

It would be cool to get the old cannon shooting again - could anyone suggest the best place to look at picking up a replacement  barrel ?

----------


## omark

> No clue how many were made but from what I have read it was faster and easier to produce and apparently had minimal effects on accuracy (they still had to pass the same tests). But it must have made some difference because they went back to 6 groove eventually. Someone else will probably have real experience and advice on this


Large quantities. Most of the savage no4s we’re 2 groovers. I have found that there is very little difference in accuracy out to about 500yds. There was a reasonable number of savage mk1*s which ended up in NZ service. The first ones delivered (3-4000)are easy to spot as they have the round cocking piece like an smle and are all Nz marked. It’s suggested that these arrived with US forces in around 42/43. 
They were not in common  issue until the very end of the war and even then the smle remained the predominant rifle. Large shipments were received in 1946 & 1948 from commonwealth reserves.
The early NZ marked 2 groovers regularly come up at auction and are very collectable. 
Of course many have been rebarrelled over the years. 
There are a couple of nice 2 groovers for sale at shooter ready in cambridge at the moment.

----------


## dogmatix

My 42 Longbranch No4Mk1* is 2 groove. Shoots stupidly accurately.

Here's my 1917 III* sporter mentioned earlier in the thread..

----------


## Finnwolf

> My 42 Longbranch No4Mk1* is 2 groove. Shoots stupidly accurately.
> 
> Here's my 1917 III* sporter mentioned earlier in the thread..
> 
> Attachment 175678


 Nice!
My Mk111 looks just like yours,  my sporterised Long Branch has a nicely made custom butt, unfortunately the comb is still too low. (As are normal Lee-Enfield)

----------


## Finnwolf

> Y'all know they're designed so you can cycle the action without breaking face-weld? Raising it up too high and you could be smacking yourself in the head with the bolt.


Im a lefty, the biggest danger is pinching the outside edge of my left hand between the bolt handle and the action when working the bolt rapidly, I dont do faceweld while cranking the bolt.

----------


## grandpamac

> This thread made me dig out my 1942 Long Branch ‘3-oh’ that had been sporterised and barrel shortened and what looks like a home made foresight, the rear is still has the two position battlesight.
> 
> Forgotten it has the two groove rifling (in average condition)
> 
> Were many two grooves made and what accuracy did they have?


Greetings @Finnwolf,
There were a lot of two groove barrels made during WW2 in Canada and the US. Target shooters used to replace two groove barrels with the more normal 5 groove thinking the two groove ones were a war time expedient and must be crap. That has not been my experience. My Longbranch scoped .303 had a very rough two groove that shot really well. It was just a pig to clean. Fortunately I had a mint two groove barrel in the cupboard so had it screwed in. It shot even better, around a MoA with my soft loads and the 174 grain round nose. The .303 two groove barrel dimensions are quite weird with very deep narrow grooves but they generally give good accuracy and long service life. I won't be parting with mine.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Russian 22.

> Great thread - the 3 O is such a part of hunting history in NZ great to see such enthusiasm for the old rifles.
> 
> When my Dad died I ended up with his sporterized SMLE which he did a lot of hunting with in the 1950's to 1960's in Canterbury where he had access to a property in Lees Valley I think the owner of the property's name was Less Burnett. Dad used to reckon that in summer he would hop on his motor bike after knocking off work and ride up to the valley with the rifle over his back and reckon he could have a deer well before dark.  It had a parker hale aperture site adjustable for windage and elevation, initially he shot it right hand, but when that eye weakened he swapped over and shot it left hand - something the feels so uncomfortable to me. Eventually he put a 4x Nikko Sterling scope on it that I gave him but I can't remember if he went back to shooting with his right eye.  He could shoot pretty well with it - I can remember him knocking goats off a bluff up behind the bach shooting off his knees would have been 1970's - I have since ranged these at 400m+ he said he was taught to shoot when he had to do compulsory military training in the 1950's after leaving school. 
> 
> It spent along time in the ceiling space above their garage - when I got the rifle I could see a long dark patch half way down the barrel and no amount of cleaning made any difference took it to the range and could hardly hit a A4 sheet of paper at 50m. 
> 
> It would be cool to get the old cannon shooting again - could anyone suggest the best place to look at picking up a replacement  barrel ?


Wait for a cheap sporter to pop up on trademe and go inspect the barrel. New ones are pretty expensive and usually come from USA.

----------


## Cordite

> Great thread - the 3 O is such a part of hunting history in NZ great to see such enthusiasm for the old rifles.
> 
> When my Dad died I ended up with his sporterized SMLE which he did a lot of hunting with in the 1950's to 1960's in Canterbury where he had access to a property in Lees Valley I think the owner of the property's name was Less Burnett. Dad used to reckon that in summer he would hop on his motor bike after knocking off work and ride up to the valley with the rifle over his back and reckon he could have a deer well before dark.  It had a parker hale aperture site adjustable for windage and elevation, initially he shot it right hand, but when that eye weakened he swapped over and shot it left hand - something the feels so uncomfortable to me. Eventually he put a 4x Nikko Sterling scope on it that I gave him but I can't remember if he went back to shooting with his right eye.  He could shoot pretty well with it - I can remember him knocking goats off a bluff up behind the bach shooting off his knees would have been 1970's - I have since ranged these at 400m+ he said he was taught to shoot when he had to do compulsory military training in the 1950's after leaving school. 
> 
> It spent along time in the ceiling space above their garage - when I got the rifle I could see a long dark patch half way down the barrel and no amount of cleaning made any difference took it to the range and could hardly hit a A4 sheet of paper at 50m. 
> 
> It would be cool to get the old cannon shooting again - could anyone suggest the best place to look at picking up a replacement  barrel ?


Has it got a mid-barrel bulge?  You'd feel the different resistance to a brush as you push/pull it through.  The dark section of the bore is usually caused by pitting, not bulging.

Before doing anything extreme to the barrel, don't write the bore off until you shoot good ammunition through it, not some old milsurp.  Rifles usually age well but their ammunition less so.  Also, the dark middle of the bore may have been present even when the rifle was a tack driver, it does not happen overnight even if the rifle lies unloved for 20 years.

I'd happily sell you a used replacement barrel, but ... caveat emptor ... will it shoot any better?  Don't buy a car or a milsurp barrel from a friend.  To get a dark old milsurp bore shooting better, first look into lead lapping. 

Article: "Lapping a Rifle Barrel", Shooting Times, September 23, 2010.

----------


## zimmer

> My 42 Longbranch No4Mk1* is 2 groove. Shoots stupidly accurately.
> 
> Here's my 1917 III* sporter mentioned earlier in the thread..
> 
> Attachment 175678


My first fullbore range rifle was a 2 groove Longbranch. I was never disadvantaged by it being 2 groove and it shot well at all ranges. Our club shot out to 800 yards. Other club members had imported A J Parkers (some purchased on trips to the UK) and Fulton Regulated. Also many imported Ball Burnished barrels to rebarrel their rifles. 
My 2 groover was virtually brand new barrel wise and only had some stock damage from square bashing. Paid £5.00 ex Linton Army Camp. Those were the days.

I later shot with a Fulton Regulated 1954 Fazakerley.

----------


## AMac

> Has it got a mid-barrel bulge?  You'd feel the different resistance to a brush as you push/pull it through.  The dark section of the bore is usually caused by pitting, not bulging.
> 
> Before doing anything extreme to the barrel, don't write the bore off until you shoot good ammunition through it, not some old milsurp.  Rifles usually age well but their ammunition less so.  Also, the dark middle of the bore may have been present even when the rifle was a tack driver, it does not happen overnight even if the rifle lies unloved for 20 years.
> 
> I'd happily sell you a used replacement barrel, but ... caveat emptor ... will it shoot any better?  Don't buy a car or a milsurp barrel from a friend.  To get a dark old milsurp bore shooting better, first look into lead lapping. 
> 
> Article: "Lapping a Rifle Barrel", Shooting Times, September 23, 2010.


Thanks Cordite - no bulge its pitting I think. Used modern ammo not milsurp. Lapping would seem a good step unfortunately living in a town house  I am not really set up for that sort of thing.  Maybe a clean with an abrasive of some sought - its it JB paste that is talked about when the topic of cleaning up barrels comes up?    Also on reflection I have only ever viewed the barrel as being the problem - never looked at the scope or mounts which could be the issue just as easily.  Might give her another clean, pop a better scope on her grab 20 rounds of new ammo and have another try next time I am at the range. 

It would be sweet to get it shooting again, I could keep it at the bach that Dad built 1972 and maybe one day nail one of the deer that are coming through these days during winter ! Neighbour rang Thursday to say they just arrived into the bay and found  their lawn is covered in hoof marks like a cattle yard and all the agapanthus eaten down to stubs. Reckon there is a herd of them around.

Cheers

AMac

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings AMac,
I think you said that the rifle is scoped. If so cutting a couple of inches of the barrel and re crowning could work wonders. Way cheaper than replacing the barrel.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## AMac

> Greetings AMac,
> I think you said that the rifle is scoped. If so cutting a couple of inches of the barrel and re crowning could work wonders. Way cheaper than replacing the barrel.
> Regards Grandpamac.


Hi Grandpamac

Thought of that but the dark area if nicely half way down for a good 150 mm so not much left after chopping. 

Cheers

AMac

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings All,
With this thread now up to 230 posts it would be safe to say that there is still interest in hunting with a .303 even if largely ceremonial. Most of those posting seem to have a few years on the clock and may need a scope to be confident on taking a shot in what appears to us to be gloomy conditions. Scoping Lee Enfields is a bit tricky so I thought I should share what little I have learnt over the years.
No1 rifles have usually been scoped using the Parker Hale base made for that purpose. One that I had done many years ago had high rings and I had always assumed that this was needed for the bolt to clear the scope. There was a No1 bolt in the cupboard and a couple of No 4 rifles so a check was made.

The No4 bolt is on the left and the No1 on the right. I popped the No4 bolt into its rifle and there was plenty of clearance so I screwed the bolt head of the No1 bolt and here it is in the No4.

The scope is a 2.5 power Lyman and the base is a No1 base that has been modified to fit the No4. It is quite rigid and shoots well and maintains its zero. It looks as though the low rings could be used for some scopes on the No 1. Check and see.
I have never liked the Parker Hale bases for the No4 as they seem to be lacking in rigidity. A rail type base modified to fit the bridge would seem preferable. A barrel mounted scout type scope would be better still.
Others may wish to respond with their scope solutions for the .303.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Cordite

@grandpamac

Removed the PH rail, instead put a mini red dot on a short length of weaver rail placed over the chamber, using the PH screw holes.  Not sure you can call it a scout configuration as it's not a telescopic sight.  Overall more elegant, beats iron sights, and stripper clips can be used again.

----------


## grandpamac

> @grandpamac
> 
> Removed the PH rail, instead put a mini red dot on a short length of weaver rail placed over the chamber, using the PH screw holes.  Not sure you can call it a scout configuration as it's not a telescopic sight.  Overall more elegant, beats iron sights, and stripper clips can be used again.


Greetings @Cordite,
I thought about red dot sights but have no experience with them so made no comment. Glad to hear it is working for you.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## bumblefoot

Well I scored a Lee Loader for the old 303 so am looking to start reloading for it again. Trust me to begin reloading when powder is as common as rocking horse s**t.... Anyway; powder's "meant" to be arriving next month.

I don't suppose anyone has a pdf or a jpeg of a modern 303 Lee Loader powder chart? There is one pic in a thread on the forum but it's too small to see. The model I have is older and many of the powders seem to be obsolete. I used to use IMR4895 in it shooting Hornady 174gr round noses. It was a minimum load as I used it originally as a pig bail gun (16.5inch barrel I think). But it sure knocked over deer and pigs too! 

I scored a box of Speer Hot-Cor 150 to use in it. The last box Gunworks had so I'm interested to see what it'll shoot like with them. It likes Highland 150 factory ammo. I'm thinking of picking up a set of Hornady Balance Beam scales too for experimentation. I was thinking about ADI 2206h or 2208 for it. But I see the ADI site doesn't have load data on it now; you have to buy the manual

When I was in my 20's I used to load for the 303 and 270. I used a Lee Loader for the 303 and a press for the 270. I stupidly sold all my reloading gear when on a bit of a hunting hiatus.... I also stupidly sold my Ruger M77 270 then too. Something I've regretted all of these years... Hindsight is wonderful.... Could never have sold the three-oh though! I bought it when I was 18; so have had it for over 40-years. If I had the m77 it would be 40-years old too......

I used IMR4895 in the 303 and H4831 for the 270. Now I have a 308, 223 and 303 but will probably only handload for the 303. More for the fun than anything else. I quite like the idea of shooting a goat/pig/deer with handloads through a 77-year old rifle and then processing, smoking and curing etc everything from it. Sounds silly, but will be fun.

----------


## Micky Duck

> Well I scored a Lee Loader for the old 303 so am looking to start reloading for it again. Trust me to begin reloading when powder is as common as rocking horse s**t.... Anyway; powder's "meant" to be arriving next month.
> 
> I don't suppose anyone has a pdf or a jpeg of a modern 303 Lee Loader powder chart? There is one pic in a thread on the forum but it's too small to see. The model I have is older and many of the powders seem to be obsolete. I used to use IMR4895 in it shooting Hornady 174gr round noses. It was a minimum load as I used it originally as a pig bail gun (16.5inch barrel I think). But it sure knocked over deer and pigs too! 
> 
> I scored a box of Speer Hot-Cor 150 to use in it. The last box Gunworks had so I'm interested to see what it'll shoot like with them. It likes Highland 150 factory ammo. I'm thinking of picking up a set of Hornady Balance Beam scales too for experimentation. I was thinking about ADI 2206h or 2208 for it. But I see the ADI site doesn't have load data on it now; you have to buy the manual
> 
> When I was in my 20's I used to load for the 303 and 270. I used a Lee Loader for the 303 and a press for the 270. I stupidly sold all my reloading gear when on a bit of a hunting hiatus.... I also stupidly sold my Ruger M77 270 then too. Something I've regretted all of these years... Hindsight is wonderful.... Could never have sold the three-oh though! I bought it when I was 18; so have had it for over 40-years. If I had the m77 it would be 40-years old too......
> 
> I used IMR4895 in the 303 and H4831 for the 270. Now I have a 308, 223 and 303 but will probably only handload for the 303. More for the fun than anything else. I quite like the idea of shooting a goat/pig/deer with handloads through a 77-year old rifle and then processing, smoking and curing etc everything from it. Sounds silly, but will be fun.


hold the line caller.....

----------


## longshot

If you want ADI load data its here 

Data – Rifle – ADI World Class Powders and Ammunition

----------


## Micky Duck

BULLET WEIGHT
150 GR. HDY SP
CASE
REMINGTON
PRIMER
FEDERAL 210, LARGE RIFLE
Starting Load		Maximum Loads
Manufacturer	Powder		Bullet Diam.	C.O.L		Grs.	Vel. (ft/s)	Pressure		Grs.	Vel. (ft/s)	Pressure
Hodgdon	BL-C(2)	BUY NOW	0.312"	2.995"		43.0	2,502	34,000 CUP		48.0	2,756	39,200 CUP	
Hodgdon	CFE 223	BUY NOW	0.312"	2.995"		40.9	2,558	38,100 PSI		44.0	2,699	45,900 PSI	
Hodgdon	H335	BUY NOW	0.312"	2.995"		37.0	2,430	34,700 CUP		42.0	2,706	43,100 CUP	
Hodgdon	H4895	BUY NOW	0.312"	2.995"		36.0	2,447	40,300 CUP		40.0	2,627	43,600 CUP	
Hodgdon	Varget	BUY NOW	0.312"	2.995"		39.0	2,458	39,600 CUP		43.0	2,656	42,700 CUP

----------


## bumblefoot

> If you want ADI load data it’s here 
> 
> Data – Rifle – ADI World Class Powders and Ammunition


Thanks; I realise now that I stuffed up by not clicking "ok" on the warning box.  :Have A Nice Day:  Senior moment on my part.....  :Wink:

----------


## Micky Duck

H4895.......is 2206
varget is 2208


I have full set of lee spoons and the chart to go with them...so if you want to know how much of certain powder a spoon holds...just ask.

----------


## bumblefoot

@Micky Duck Thank you

----------


## longshot

Also hornady 100gr .312 xtp on top a full case of trailboss goes well in the.303

----------


## bumblefoot

The dipper that came with mine is a 167 red dipper

----------


## bumblefoot

I am more excited than I should be to start reloading for the old girl again ha ha This is the old girl

----------


## Micky Duck

> The dipper that came with mine is a 167 red dipper


what CC is on it????

----------


## bumblefoot

It just has "167" on it

----------


## Micky Duck

12.9GRNS TRAIL BOSS
38.6 GRNS 2208/VARGET
39.2GRNS 2206

GOOGLE tells me your spoon 2.7366CCs
the above is with 2.8 so yours be fly shit less

----------


## bumblefoot

This is the chart that came with it, Maybe I should email Lee and see if they could email a modern copy?

----------


## bumblefoot

@Micky Duck  Thanks!

----------


## Micky Duck

well win 760 with 2.8CC spoon is 42grns so yip those above look about right...slightly above starting loads so good safe place to be at with an old gal.same for imr 3031
so your chart still relevant IF you can find right powder LOL.
email them...nothing to loose bud.

----------


## Jhon

> 2206 is now 2206H I think...


Nope, definitely not, please check the manufacturer website before saying things like that. Not to be rude but there is a significant diff between the powders. I have both of them. This is direct from ADI - "ADI AR2206H Smokeless Rifle Powder has a burning rate slightly slower than AR2206 and is between AR2206 and AR2208.

----------


## Micky Duck

and Ive used both with same charge rates in .308 and .223 for ever without issue...BECAUSE I dont load hot...if you in mild end of spectrum a slight change wont push you into eating bolt territory...a wrong or mislabeled powder will.

----------


## omark

> 2206 is now 2206H I think...


No they are different powders as is the load data

----------


## Micky Duck

hold the line caller...AGAIN......will dig out OLD ADI manual and new adi manual

----------


## Micky Duck

actually my old one is mulwex...1986
303 brit 150grn projectile41grs ar2206       43grs ar2208

newer one 2010 
303 brit  150grn projectile  AR2206H   start 36grn------40grns max
and,and,and AR2206....NO H
SAME START or 36grns--------39.5grns maximum
ar2208 39grns start--------43grns max

----------


## Jhon

> actually my old one is mulwex...1986
> 303 brit 150grn projectile41grs ar2206       43grs ar2208
> 
> newer one 2010 
> 303 brit  150grn projectile  AR2206H   start 36grn------40grns max
> and,and,and AR2206....NO H
> SAME START or 36grns--------39.5grns maximum
> ar2208 39grns start--------43grns max


   @micky_Duck, sorry mate, that does not make them the same powder. May be close, may have the same charge range for a particular calibre but that still does not make them the same powder.  Pedantic?  sure. An issue with this calibre, looks like not. Still does not make AR2206H the successor/replacement for AR2206. But, moving right along....

----------


## Micky Duck

1/2grn different in .223 for 55 grn pill
same at 69 grn pill

22-250   70grn pill    same start   1.5grn diffeence max


point Im making is that IF YOU FOLLOWING GOOD RELOADING PRACTICE eg starting low and working up...or just running with mild load...it will make no difference worth a damn...in fact I would go so far as to say if you dont fcuk around with a chronograph you would never in a million years pick a difference....
same thing happened when the folks at ADI changed AR 2213 into AR 2213SC.....folks got all antsy about data...all they did was cut it shorter sticks..thus the SC=short cut

made for easier metering in spoons and throwers.

look up data for 2213 and the hogdgon equivilent...and data will be higher for the Hogdgon powder yet it is made in same place just put in same jugs with different label.
for this fella in his 303 brit with LEE spoon mild loads it wont matter a fig.

----------


## Micky Duck

303 brit  same start .5 grn diference at maximum with 150 grn projectile
1 and 1.5 with 180grn
1 grn with 125 grn

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings Micky, Jhon and Mimms,
I ran some test loads that included AR2206, AR2206H and others in my .308 last year. In every case AR2206 was faster than AR2206H. With the 125 grain Speer TNT AR2206 was almost as fast as BM8208. I used 47 grains of each and the velocities were BM8208 2,948 fps, AR2206 2,938 fps and AR2206H 2,902 fps. With the 150 grain Hornady Interlok and 44 grains of each powder gave AR2206 2,698 fps, AR2206H 2,674 fps, IMR 4064 2,656 fps and AR2208 2,564 fps. With the 165 grain Hornady Interlock and 43 grains of each powder gave AR2206 2,585 fps, A2206H 2,575 fps, IMR4064 2,443 fps and AR2208 2,424 fps. Cases were new Winchester for the 125 and 150 projectiles and CAC for the 165's. Clearly the loads for the slower powders can be increased for more velocity but the aim of the test was verify the relative powder speeds. ADI has some recent loads for AR2206 and the .223 and .308 but some of their other loads are ancient and probably not pressure tested. As an aside I fired a fouling shot with 45 grains of IMR4064 with the 150 grain in a Federal case. These cases are heavy and the load has been cut from my usual 46 grains. This load gave 2,755 fps. While all the other loads gave velocity close to that predicted from the data once charge and barrel length had been adjusted for this load gave 70 fps more, equivalent to about 1.5 grains more powder. I have test loads for both the .223 and .308 using different weight cases which I will report on once shot.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Jhon

@mimms2 All in the words eh? And yet they are both current powders with their online web page, not their newsletter, stating that AR2206H lies between AR2206 and AR2208 with a different burnrate. And that AR2206 is still available but only in 1kg  (or was it 1.5kg) bottles. Anyway, as Micky Duck has gone to some length to state, they are so close in this application they are interchangeable  with the usual proviso of working up your own load. Fair enough.

----------


## bumblefoot

I emailed Lee about an hour ago and got this reply. A very fast reply! 

"Ross, The load data that we print is giving to us from the Powder companies with permission to print only, these cannot be downloaded or sent any other way than via mail. The part number that you are looking for is #CH1639-303B Charge Table and this is available for you to order at the enclosed link:

https://leeprecision.com/303b-charge-table.html

The part will come  up as no charge for one of these and you will just be responsible for the shipping and handling.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Brenda"

----------


## Jhon

> I emailed Lee about an hour ago and got this reply. A very fast reply! 
> 
> "Ross, The load data that we print is giving to us from the Powder companies with permission to print only, these cannot be downloaded or sent any other way than via mail. The part number that you are looking for is #CH1639-303B Charge Table and this is available for you to order at the enclosed link:
> 
> https://leeprecision.com/303b-charge-table.html
> 
> The part will come  up as no charge for one of these and you will just be responsible for the shipping and handling.
> 
> Thank you.
> ...


The last time I took advantage of Lee's excellent service I needed a small part for a Press. I discovered that they have a wide range of parts for their gear that is free for the first one as a no questions asked warranty replacement. Just pay a small one off handling fee plus shipping. So I figured out the weight breaks on the shipping, went to my club mates and put together a grab bag of free items to make up the weight, then shared the shipping and handling cost.  Several of us got parts we either needed or that would be useful to have on the shelf. It was worth spending some time on their site going thru the whole product range.

----------


## grandpamac

> actually my old one is mulwex...1986
> 303 brit 150grn projectile41grs ar2206       43grs ar2208
> 
> newer one 2010 
> 303 brit  150grn projectile  AR2206H   start 36grn------40grns max
> and,and,and AR2206....NO H
> SAME START or 36grns--------39.5grns maximum
> ar2208 39grns start--------43grns max


Greetings Micky and All,
Had a bit of a dig. The 41 grain load of AR2206 with the 150 grain in the .303 quoted in your 1986 pamphlet is a copy of the load in Cyril Waterworth's book for AR2201. This was a non canister powder that was both faster and slower than AR2206 depending on batch. The load dates from prior to 1970 and would definitely not been pressure tested. Both Mulwex and Nick Harvey copied these loads, Nick as late as his 6th edition, about 2003, which he claimed was completely revised. The ADI 3rd edition guide from 2000 gives a max load of 43 grains of AR2206 which seems a bit hot as they only list 44.5 of AR2206 in the .308 with the 155 grain. At the end of the day AR2206 is an orphan powder with modern load data only for the .308 and .223 for use in target rifles I expect. If we have a supply we can use it with care but if we don't then the data, such as it is, is only of historical interest. I definitely not use any AR2201 as it had a short storage life.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Carbine

Churchill 1945 SMLE , drilled and tapped an ati scope mount to the original mounting holes tapped into the reciever after it flew off and scoped me just need an old pecar scope and im away laughing

----------


## bumblefoot

Re: digital calipers........ I've been looking at them gun shop sites. Is there any difference between a brand name set of digital calibres (Fuller etc) from Bunnings ($45)and one for $85 with the Hornady brand on it. I'd only be using it to check cartridge length when seating projectiles for the old 303. I have bought a Lee cartridge trimmer, bullet chamfer and primer pocket cleaner. Way cheaper for the Lee versions than the other brands. Some of the primer pocket cleaners were $35+ ! The Lee was $8........... And looked no different to what I used to have

----------


## Jhon

> Re: digital calipers........ I've been looking at them gun shop sites. Is there any difference between a brand name set of digital calibres (Fuller etc) from Bunnings ($45)and one for $85 with the Hornady brand on it. I'd only be using it to check cartridge length when seating projectiles for the old 303. I have bought a Lee cartridge trimmer, bullet chamfer and primer pocket cleaner. Way cheaper for the Lee versions than the other brands. Some of the primer pocket cleaners were $35+ ! The Lee was $8........... And looked no different to what I used to have


Don't know about the Bunnings calipers, ive got Frankford Arsenal ones and older Lymans which are comparable to the Hornady.  Personally I don't know that they are all that flash, hard to get two readings the same in a row but maybe thats cause they are so finely tuned lol

I will venture an opinion on the primer pocket cleaner, unless you are a bench rest shooter (and then only maybe) they are a waste of time and money and effort.  I bet you can't tell the difference on POI at any distance across 100 cleaned pockets vs 100 uncleaned. Plenty of other things will bugger you up long before primer pocket cleaning comes into play.  The only thing I check for is when I've tumbled deprimed brass is that there is no media stuck in the flash hole. If there is an issue with your primer pockets it will more likely be to do with primer crimping and then you either ream them, swage them or chuck them. Having spent the money on a swager and done 1000 9mm for my long gone Ruger PCC I now have a redundant swager. Thank you Aunty.  Any new crimped pockets I now chuck.

----------


## bumblefoot

I used to always clean the primer pockets; and for $8 it's not a biggy  :Have A Nice Day:  I bought the 303 case trimmer, b pocket cleaner and chamfer tool for $35 total. Again; pretty cheap. I'm doing it for as cheap as possible for a simple set-up  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## grandpamac

> I used to always clean the primer pockets; and for $8 it's not a biggy  I bought the 303 case trimmer, b pocket cleaner and chamfer tool for $35 total. Again; pretty cheap. I'm doing it for as cheap as possible for a simple set-up


Greetings Bumblefoot,
I clean my primer pockets too but with a small screwdriver. I know it is supposed to be pointless but like doing it so why not. My callipers are a Mitutoyo metric set I bought 40 years ago. I doubt if I will need another set. I also have large and small primer pocket reamers. Handy as some commercial cartridges are now crimped.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## bumblefoot

Thanks; the one I bought has a large and small at either end..... As fr the calipers; it's just to measure the overall bullet length when seating projectiles. I didn't need one before as the 174gr RN I used previously had a cannelure, so made it easier! I've got Speer hot cor 150's but may try the 180gr Sierra Spitzer Hunter as it'll have longer legs than the round nose. Can't wait! gotta give my mate's Creedmoor a run for its money....  :Psmiley:

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings Bumblefoot,
Just spotted your post about your Lee Loader. Your .167 powder measure has 98% of the capacity of the 2.8cc powder measure that the Lee chart will give. This should give 37.5 grains of AR2208 (Varget) or 37.6 grains of AR2206H (H4895). 37.5 grains of AR2208 is about the start load for the 174 and 180 grain projectiles and should give around 2,300 fps. For the 150 grain projectile 37.6 grains of AR2206H is a mid load that should give around 2,500 fps. In my .303 I have tried 32 grains of AR2206H with the 174 grain RN that produces a little under 2,100 fps. I am thinking of working up to 34 grains which should give about 2,200 fps. I also tried 34 grains of AR2206H with the 150 grain which gave around 2,050 fps. I am thinking of bumping this load up a couple of grains as well. Both loads shot quite well for an almost 80 year old rifle and a 2.5 power scope and not too far apart either. Happy days loading for your 7.7mm rimmed Creedmoor.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## bumblefoot

"7.7mm rimmed Creedmoor"  :Grin:  My old girl's new name! It shoots Highland 150's into 3" at 100m. I think it will do better because that's with a Weaver 2.5x scope and I'm the weakest link in the chain because 2.5x is a bit of a stretch for my 58-year old eyes. . I'm putting a 3-9 Nikon on it next week. I bought a box of PPU 180gr just to see how it shoots them. I bought a Hornady Balance Beam Scale; should arrive next week. Getting hold of powder is the biggest hold-up at the moment. But all good; I've got factory rounds to play with

----------


## Frogfeatures

Hang on to the PPU brass, its good stuff.

----------


## bumblefoot

> Hang on to the PPU brass, its good stuff.


I have been as that's what I'd read  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## bumblefoot

@mimms2 Brilliant idea. I'd forgotten that the case is out of the die when seating the projectile. So I can loosen it off after putting the factory round in, put the bullet presser thingy in and screw down until it touches the projectile and then tighten it up1 Geez I'm a dumbarse sometimes! I suppose I could seat a 150 and 180 projectile in a case with no powder or primer and keep them with the Lee Loader as models for when I change the projectiles from 150-180. The old KISS method!

----------


## Micky Duck

some of us decide seating depth that way ALL THE TIME....and have done for 30 plus years.
I place loaded round in shell holder and lift ram to top of stroke,then start screwing die in untill the handle twitches. the projectile will be touching at this point. this assumes you have already sorted all cases to correct length. and you are screwing in the top of die not die body itself....BUT when I seating the fencepost 170grn loads in 270  I have to back main body of die well out to make things fit.... they just too fat up front for normal methods LOL.

----------


## bumblefoot

@Micky Duck It was so blindingly obvious it probably says something about my intelligence that I hadn't thought of it before!  :Psmiley:

----------


## Micky Duck

the day we stop learning,is the day we start to die.

----------


## bumblefoot

One step closer to reloading for my 7.7mm Rimmed Creedmoor.....  :Grin:  Scored some powder and some 180gr Sierra Pro Hunter projectiles.....

----------


## Micky Duck

love that companies mission statement...Hodgdon is good stuff to use...and you have data online at fingertips. have fun and be careful....yes you can do both at same time.

----------


## bumblefoot

@Micky Duck  Will do. I haven't done any reloading for nearly 30-years. I'm quite excited to be getting back into it. I have used H4831 before in my old 270. I used IMR4895 in the 303 behind the Hornady 174gr RN

----------


## bumblefoot



----------


## Jhon

> love that companies mission statement...Hodgdon is good stuff to use...and you have data online at fingertips. have fun and be careful....yes you can do both at same time.


And yet they have never been a powder manufacturer but a powder distributor that has bought up the manufacturers. Same old story, does not pay so well to be a primary producer, the money is at the top of the food chain.

----------


## Micky Duck

38.4grns fit in a 2.8CC spoon so your one will be fly shit under that....so ideal for the 150...and POSSIBLY just little too much for 180 so you could decrease slightly...a small piece of cardboard in bottom of cup will reduce volume..... scales would be ideal but that would be rough enough.... caution as per always.

----------


## bumblefoot

I've got some Hornady scales coming this week  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## bumblefoot

@Arthur McBride That's certainly a pretty grunty load! Good accuracy though  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## bumblefoot

And.... another step! Picked up some primers today so I'm ready to go!

----------


## bumblefoot

It may have been built in 1944 to halt blitzkrieg and banzai charges,  but the old 303 still fills the freezer.... Took the old girl out for a walk today; the first things it's shot in nearly 10-years! I am going to get a set of ear plugs though; I'd forgotten how badly that 17.5" barrel barks...........  :Wink:

----------


## bumblefoot

I love the old girl.... It's short because it was used for a bail gun many years ago

----------


## Micky Duck

you could always fit suppressor...... sacrilege but well worth it and still be awesome.
I could never do very well with the open sights....

----------


## grandpamac

> I love the old girl.... It's short because it was used for a bail gun many years ago


Greetings Bumblefoot,
Imagine how much better it would have been with your own loads. Next time perhaps. You can dial down the loads as well to reduce both boot and bark.
Grandpamac.

----------


## norsk

> I always love enfields. Don't know why, they're technically pretty average. But still a hoot.
> 
> The things we do when we're young and silly eh


Why are they technically pretty average?

----------


## norsk

> Rear-locking action (has pros and cons), horrendous trigger, skinny barrels, ancient (relatively speaking) chambering, loose tolerances (mostly age)... I always found the two-part stock thing hanging off the wrist a bit wierd too...


You are likely pissed again or have very little knowledge of Lee Enfields.

The Lee Enfield was a technological masterpeice in its time, 40 years ahead of anything else, double the firepower of a Mauser and constantly being improved upon . All the "faults" you list are what made it the best bolt action battle rifle ever produced.

----------


## Jhon

Which makes them technically pretty average as a sporting rifle, for all the reasons mimms2, gave plus a few. And I have 3 of them which I enjoy greatly. Haven't found a battle yet tho to test their original merits. Oh, and they got their arse kicked I believe by the Boers with the 7X57mm Mauser. But the Germans found them uncomfortable at close quarters en masses. And on the battle field they were prized above the P14 which was a damn fine design, just didn't suit the trenches mud and blood too much. Horses for courses yes?

----------


## norsk

> Which makes them technically pretty average as a sporting rifle, for all the reasons mimms2, gave plus a few. And I have 3 of them which I enjoy greatly. Haven't found a battle yet tho to test their original merits. Oh, and they got their arse kicked I believe by the Boers with the 7X57mm Mauser. But the Germans found them uncomfortable at close quarters en masses. And on the battle field they were prized above the P14 which was a damn fine design, just didn't suit the trenches mud and blood too much. Horses for courses yes?


No

You are as incorrect as  Mimms is

----------


## dogmatix

> Which makes them technically pretty average as a sporting rifle, for all the reasons mimms2, gave plus a few. And I have 3 of them which I enjoy greatly. Haven't found a battle yet tho to test their original merits. Oh, and they got their arse kicked I believe by the Boers with the 7X57mm Mauser. But the Germans found them uncomfortable at close quarters en masses. And on the battle field they were prized above the P14 which was a damn fine design, just didn't suit the trenches mud and blood too much. Horses for courses yes?


You are mixing up Long Toms and Cavalry Carbines used in the 2nd Boer War with the later SMLE.
Issues then were the ammo, single loading, poor marksmanship and training for the modern type of war.
All issues were resolved by the time WW1 broke out with the small, but superbly trained British Regular Army carrying the SMLE III with its adjustable windage, charger bridge feeding and spitzer ammo.

----------


## norsk

> Were any of the things I said incorrect?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not arguing they weren't good battle rifles. Nor am I arguing they were inferior to other offerings of their day. And it's not that I don't like them, even (I really do) You're just making shit up.
> 
> And I don't see how a crap trigger is any advantage to anyone anywhere...
> Maybe you're pissed again?


Everything in your first post is incorrect, the two stage trigger pull was ment to help stop ND's.

You alter it to single stage if you want to.

Go do some reading before you yodle more codshit.

----------


## bumblefoot

Geez; everyone calm down please  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## norsk

> Who pissed in your weetbix dude.
> 
> I keep my finger off it, to avoid NDs. 
> "Alter it" is not speaking to "the rifle as it technically is"
> 
> So you're saying enfields are not: 
> Rear-locking; 
> with a technically  horrendous trigger; 
> have skinny barrels;
> ...


You have missed the operative word your initial statement was based upon:

"Technically"

Instead you have simply listed your opinion without knowing why certain things you dont like were there in the first place, two stage trigger aside.

I would like to argue with someone semi lucid.

Can you put the booze and smokes down for a month and come back to this thread.

----------


## Tedz50

> Rear-locking action (has pros and cons), horrendous trigger, skinny barrels, ancient (relatively speaking) chambering, loose tolerances (mostly age)... I always found the two-part stock thing hanging off the wrist a bit weird too...


I think that two piece stock is a bit weird and wonder why Blaser Merkel Sauer and a million lever actions were ever built but I am afraid to say any thing in case I get dragged into this bun fight.

----------


## grandpamac

> Geez; everyone calm down please


Greetings Bumblefoot,
I'm with you on this one. To my knowledge (I must admit I skipped over some of the posts halfway through the first sentence) no one has suggested that the Lee Enfield is the last word in sporting rifle design. Some of us, perhaps a lot of us, just like to keep one or two around. Few if any of us keep one as a primary hunting rifle, we just like to load for and shoot them. We work around their shortcomings to produce usable loads suitable for the limited hunting and shooting we do with them. Some, like me have a long family association with the rifles and its cartridge. My first shot with any rifle was with my Uncles P14, at a rock, close to Makino Hut on the last Saturday in March 1963. No amount of jawboning will change that.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## Jhon

Well done Wallabies!.Go hard ABs!!

----------


## bumblefoot

Bloody hell; enough of the arguing already..... Shit it's making me think twice about even posting here anymore. 2 posts about having a bit of fun with an old 303 derailed by people starting shit storms... Probably simpler to PM people I think maybe able to help out with a question rather than start threads here.............

----------


## Marty Henry

Well I like lee enfields and don't care if they have a few eccentricities, at there age they're entitled.
I like the cock on closing system
I like the 2 stage trigger
I like the geometry of bolt handle and trigger
I like the short bolt throw 
I like the smell of Youngs 303 cleaner
Etc

----------


## bumblefoot

@Marty Henry I know of 2 goats that don't like them as of Friday!  :Wink:

----------


## bumblefoot

Oops; wrong pic

----------


## Jhon

> Bloody hell; enough of the arguing already..... Shit it's making me think twice about even posting here anymore. 2 posts about having a bit of fun with an old 303 derailed by people starting shit storms... Probably simpler to PM people I think maybe able to help out with a question rather than start threads here.............


Time for a couple of yellow cards perhaps ?

----------


## akaroa1

I would dearly love to own a left hand SMLE ( and yes I know it's no big deal to reach over and use the bolt ).
But I like things to be correct 

Doubt there has ever been a true left hand version made but happy to be corrected

There have been a number of wrong handed ones passed on and down to me over the years and I have moved them all on
But it always left me longing for that special one worth keeping

I think it a technically brilliant rifle for what it was intended
I think the 303 is superb for what it was intended and considering when it was conceived and is still a cartridge that could do practically everything most NZ hunters would ever want it for
I can see a whole lot of reason why some of its features that irritate some are taken out of context 
For instance a two piece stock is vastly more efficient if you are making a few million of them
Much easier to get a lot more units out of the same amount of materials
Regarding the light barrels. Once again it will be a saving in barrel steel and taken over millions at a time when resources were extremely valuable it all counts

Like I said I would love one in my gun cabinet And  would have lots of circumstances where it would be ideal
So I will just have to build a nice 303 single shot or buy a friend's 303 double rifle if I really want to scratch that itch

----------


## Danger Mouse

Enfield are awesome.

----------


## Cordite

> I would dearly love to own a left hand SMLE ( and yes I know it's no big deal to reach over and use the bolt ).
> But I like things to be correct 
> 
> Doubt there has ever been a true left hand version made but happy to be corrected
> 
> There have been a number of wrong handed ones passed on and down to me over the years and I have moved them all on
> But it always left me longing for that special one worth keeping
> 
> I think it a technically brilliant rifle for what it was intended
> ...


The Arisaka is two piece stock too, the toe of the shoulder stock is dovetailed on.  Also an expedient solution.

----------


## grandpamac

> I would dearly love to own a left hand SMLE ( and yes I know it's no big deal to reach over and use the bolt ).
> But I like things to be correct 
> 
> Doubt there has ever been a true left hand version made but happy to be corrected
> 
> There have been a number of wrong handed ones passed on and down to me over the years and I have moved them all on
> But it always left me longing for that special one worth keeping
> 
> I think it a technically brilliant rifle for what it was intended
> ...


Stop it you smooth talking devil. You will get us all into trouble. I have seen just one .303 double rifle and I really don't want to know what they cost. Had an old Martini Enfield but the barrel was shagged and the rest of it beggared. It is now a Martini Krag. It will have to do.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## bumblefoot

@grandpamac It'd be interesting to see what a 303 would do if loaded to higher pressures in a modern action.

----------


## bumblefoot

Those 2 goats are pretty chilled at the moment while mulling over their choice to walk out in front of the 7.7mm Rimmed Creedmoor.... :Wink:

----------


## norsk

Here is one of mine.

"Range pattern MLE" Heavy "H" Lithgow Barrel, single stage target trigger, its an 1MOA shooter produced in 1896...

Interestingly enough the 303 Cartridge was designed by a Swiss man and the Lee Action was American.

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings @bumblefoot,
I think that question has been answered. The .303 has a strong case approaching the capacity of the .308. Some have improved its performance in a P 14 up to .308 factory level.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## akaroa1

> Stop it you smooth talking devil. You will get us all into trouble. I have seen just one .303 double rifle and I really don't want to know what they cost. Had an old Martini Enfield but the barrel was shagged and the rest of it beggared. It is now a Martini Krag. It will have to do.
> Regards Grandpamac.


 @grandpamac I have a good friend with a Bonehill 303 double circa  1895 and proofed for 215 grain projectiles 
Bores are 9.5/10
Exterior is 9/10
I have handled it often but never shot it
He offered to sell it to me several years ago for 12k
Which I think was a fair price
When I asked to have a really good look at it some time later to dig in to it's value etc he couldn't remember which safe it was in
Just his way of saying he didn't want to sell it and maybe had thought 12k would kill my interest
My problem isn't the money it's that I would want to take it hunting 
And it's better that I not own high end collectors pieces
But one day when his guard is down I might mention it again and see where he is at in it

I can't find my images of it but it's barrel widths are identical to a Merkel 20 gauge shotgun
So you could build a very nice hunting 303 double rifle on a good donor 20 gauge

For a single shot
Well a #5 rolling block action would be perfect as they are later production nitro proofed

Failing finding a #5 I have ordered two sets of Field's patent 1877 rifle action castings from the USA and one of them might become a 303 one day

----------


## PadLo

Fucking awesome!

----------


## norsk

The thin barrel was designed to be supported by the wood in the middle of the forend and towards the nose cap of the two first Rifle Marks.This enabled a thin barrel to be "tamed" as it heated up,as well as insulating the barrel so mirage didnt disrupt the sight picture in addition to keeping flesh away from the hot barrel.

After 15 rounds through my K98 I have problems with mirage,I cant remember ever having problems with mirage from any 303 .

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings All, Here is my Martini chambered for the .30-40 Krag aka the 30 Purdey Flanged Nitro Express on one of its walkies in the Kaweka's. Light loads are used with in a 140 year old action and it shoots better than some Ruger No 1 rifles. 30 cal target barrel with 1 in 12 inch twist.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Maxx

> Attachment 179051
> 
> Enfield are awesome.


Wow....a couple that old they're mumifed?   :Thumbsup:

----------


## Danger Mouse

> Wow....a couple that old they're mumifed?


Photo courtesy of the owner. All made in 1955, we're they were put into grease wrap. 2 degreased and are used,  2 still in the grease wrap and will stay that way.

----------


## bumblefoot

A silly little video of the 303 hunt!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRAkYOWzXuA

----------


## Jhon

> A silly little video of the 303 hunt!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRAkYOWzXuA


Excellent! Well done and thks for sharing. Made me hungry for the bush sitting here in lockdown.

----------


## bumblefoot

@grandpamac How cool is this?  :Have A Nice Day: 

https://www.magnumimports.co.nz/coll...-rifle-303brit

----------


## grandpamac

> @grandpamac How cool is this? 
> 
> https://www.magnumimports.co.nz/coll...-rifle-303brit
> 
> Attachment 180680


 @bumblefoot you are a very bad man for drawing my attention to that rifle. The only thing that may save me is that it is a far too pretty rifle to take in the bush. Still good to know that there are still some rifles chambered in .303 Brit. The Winchester 1885 may have been chambered for it during its life, I know that the 1895 and the Remington rolling block were.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## bumblefoot

@grandpamac  :Grin:   I'd probably need a scope for my eyes though. A plain Jane 4x32 or 4x40 I suppose. I remember thinking when I was younger (and recently!) about having a custom 303 rifle made. Not a flash Harry; just a modern action, new barrel; and everyday hunting style stock.... I don't know why I love the 303 so much! I think it's the heritage and NZ history. I enjoy watching vids like this where they bring the old rifles out to hunt. In this case a 32-40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHf-H3MsVFA

----------


## grandpamac

> @grandpamac   I'd probably need a scope for my eyes though. A plain Jane 4x32 or 4x40 I suppose. I remember thinking when I was younger (and recently!) about having a custom 303 rifle made. Not a flash Harry; just a modern action, new barrel; and everyday hunting style stock.... I don't know why I love the 303 so much! I think it's the heritage and NZ history. I enjoy watching vids like this where they bring the old rifles out to hunt. In this case a 32-40
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHf-H3MsVFA


Greetings Again @bumblefoot,
I seem to have developed a strong liking for single shot rifles. Surprisingly there seems to be plenty available well north of a century after they were rendered obsolete as a military rifle. As well as the .303 and .30-40 Krag there are lots of really neat rimmed metric rounds in the 6.5 and 7mm range that would be ideal for all NZ hunting, the 6.5 x 57 R being a good example. I also could probably afford one at least but generally talk myself out of it. Not an uncommon event for those early boomers who heard the depression stories when we were young.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Micky Duck

> @bumblefoot you are a very bad man for drawing my attention to that rifle. The only thing that may save me is that it is a far too pretty rifle to take in the bush. Still good to know that there are still some rifles chambered in .303 Brit. The Winchester 1885 may have been chambered for it during its life, I know that the 1895 and the Remington rolling block were.
> Regards Grandpamac.


pretty sure I know where a sadly neglected winchester 303 is...one day may just have to chase that up...there is photo of one in Philip Holdens wild pig book I seem to recall.

----------


## Micky Duck

@Bublefoot......a 7.62x39mm Bakail can be rechambered........its one of two conversions on my radar to do...the other is same rifle in 223 converted to hi power savage with .224 diameter barrel.

----------


## gun guy

> Greetings Again @bumblefoot,
> I seem to have developed a strong liking for single shot rifles. Surprisingly there seems to be plenty available well north of a century after they were rendered obsolete as a military rifle. As well as the .303 and .30-40 Krag there are lots of really neat rimmed metric rounds in the 6.5 and 7mm range that would be ideal for all NZ hunting, the 6.5 x 57 R being a good example. I also could probably afford one at least but generally talk myself out of it. Not an uncommon event for those early boomers who heard the depression stories when we were young.
> Regards Grandpamac.


For some reason Ive got a thing for single shot rifles as well got a 223 and a 22 hornet

----------


## grandpamac

> @Bublefoot......a 7.62x39mm Bakail can be rechambered........its one of two conversions on my radar to do...the other is same rifle in 223 converted to hi power savage with .224 diameter barrel.


Greetings @Micky Duck,
I detect a case of singleshotitis, a newly described disease the afflicts many Riflemen as they approach their mature years. It is often accompanied by declining interest in the latest whizzo cartridges and kit. Fortunately there is no cure.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Jhon

> Wait for a cheap sporter to pop up on trademe and go inspect the barrel. New ones are pretty expensive and usually come from USA.


Don't Criterion have them in NZ? Around  $650-$800??

----------


## Micky Duck

> Greetings @Micky Duck,
> I detect a case of singleshotitis, a newly described disease the afflicts many Riflemen as they approach their mature years. It is often accompanied by declining interest in the latest whizzo cartridges and kit. Fortunately there is no cure.
> Regards Grandpamac.


so this diagnosis may well be why the .45/70 break open has been getting out of cabinet a lot lately....

----------


## bumblefoot

@Micky Duck  There is a 45/70 built on a P14 actin on TM at the moment!

----------


## Russian 22.

> Don't Criterion have them in NZ? Around  $650-$800??


yes, I was more talking about NOS which is very rare. Occasionally decent second hand pops up

----------


## gun guy

Your a bit early

----------


## Danger Mouse

> Don't Criterion have them in NZ? Around  $650-$800??


Out of stock last time I checked

----------


## Danger Mouse

> Your a bit early


It's a bot

----------


## bumblefoot

@Arthur McBride Warms the cockles of my heart!  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## grandpamac

> @Bublefoot......a 7.62x39mm Bakail can be rechambered........its one of two conversions on my radar to do...the other is same rifle in 223 converted to hi power savage with .224 diameter barrel.


Greetings @Micky Duck,
I read your post on the .22 Savage with a .223 inch groove barrel and thought "Micky has just reinvented the .219 Zipper". This is the .22 Savage shortened ever so slightly and necked down even more slightly.

This is the front page of one of the late Ken Waters Pet Loads articles from "Handloader Ammunition Reloading Journal" from 1974. Ken wrote these from 1966 until sometime after 2000 and died recently in his late 90's. An improved version called the .225 Winchester was brought out in the 1960's. Either would work in the Baikal but the loads for the .225 would need to be toned down a bit. Single shot rifles are still made in Europe for the 5.6 x 51R (.22 Savage) but they cost rather more than a SH Baikal. Norma sells ammunition and cases but a reamer is likely to be a problem. Let us know if the project advances. The other option would be a .222 Rimmed on a .222 Baikal which would only need a rim recess cut. Bertram in OZ makes the cases. I saw some in a sports shop in Tamworth a few years back.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## NZscopes

Boss&Co 303 at Holts auction few years ago.

----------


## paremata

Something a bit different, an early enfield chambered in 405 winchester 
https://www.shooterssupplies.co.nz/p...eespeed-10868/

----------


## Lucky

303 double rifle would be the ducks nuts

----------


## Micky Duck

> 303 double rifle would be the ducks nuts


Bakail make double rifles....seen them advertised here in .45/70   or 30/06   now either would just about have to be ultimate bush rifle.....
double .303 will be great to...more accurate barrel have a good load in it and other something big soft and heavy...say a 200grn cast....lookout stag behind horipito bush...clearly identifiable but partially obscured....

----------


## bumblefoot

> Bakail make double rifles....seen them advertised here in .45/70   or 30/06   now either would just about have to be ultimate bush rifle.....
> double .303 will be great to...more accurate barrel have a good load in it and other something big soft and heavy...say a 200grn cast....lookout stag behind horipito bush...clearly identifiable but partially obscured....


I once used the Hornady 174gr RH in my old SMLE. Nothing walked away.........  :Wink:

----------


## Tedz50

> Bakail make double rifles....seen them advertised here in .45/70   or 30/06   now either would just about have to be ultimate bush rifle.....
> double .303 will be great to...more accurate barrel have a good load in it and other something big soft and heavy...say a 200grn cast....lookout stag behind horipito bush...clearly identifiable but partially obscured....



I was offered a 30 06 double rifle and would have bought it but it would not keep barrels shooting remotely together,but I bought the two u/o versions they make as regulation can be adjusted. Unless you are buying quality makes a single shot is a better choice.Baikial make a 762x39 over 12 gauge or 762x39 over 20 gauge which could be a candidate for rechambering to 303.

----------


## akaroa1

I just thought it was time to bump the 303 thread buck up to the top

In the process of sorting out a Stevens 44 1/2 in the wildcat caliber 38-303 I was looking for decent 303 brass
Turned up what I needed and @Rambo-6mm formed the brass up for me
I also have more brass to collect

But an offer for 303 dies, new old stock Norma brass and projectiles was also taken

So now once again I have all the gear to reload and a new barrel blank  for a caliber of rifle I don't own !
 @Scout will be loving this joke 
The 303 items now join 30-30 ( complete set and new profiled barrel ) and 25-35 which I even have a new unused chamber reamer for 

So if anyone has a single shot action that deserves to be made whole and become a working rifle again in 303, 30-30 or  25-35 get in touch

----------


## Scout

I have a nice Martini action, its old/new barrel is waiting down South to go to a better place ,,,,,,, I think !

I just got the sight on the other yesterday, I'm now pissed off I missed a huge can of ADI 2201 from ancient times as I have been using up a small can I have & it is great for the Old girls !

----------


## muzza

If you have a 303 fetish there are a huge bunch of them on offer in the next Militaria auction in Feb.

----------


## akaroa1

> I have a nice Martini action, its old/new barrel is waiting down South to go to a better place ,,,,,,, I think !
> 
> I just got the sight on the other yesterday, I'm now pissed off I missed a huge can of ADI 2201 from ancient times as I have been using up a small can I have & it is great for the Old girls !


@@Scout That MG barrel is just waiting patiently to be whittled down to go in an ovate sewer pipe !

Many is the time I have looked at it and though you have so much tonnage stranded all over the world you won't miss one 303 barrel !
But I don't currently have a nitro proof action I can spin it on to

----------


## akaroa1

> If you have a 303 fetish there are a huge bunch of them on offer in the next Militaria auction in Feb.


Those bloody auctions just keep getting bumped 
And I'm fussy and not especially keen on martinis  ( despite owning a few ) for what I want the 303 single shot for

----------


## dogmatix

Sure I've posted this else where.
But had to stick my spare scope and rings on the Enfield 1917 III* sporter, as I don't trust my eyes hunting with irons. 
Thanks to the member for the free mount rail.  :Wink:

----------


## grandpamac

> I have a nice Martini action, its old/new barrel is waiting down South to go to a better place ,,,,,,, I think !
> 
> I just got the sight on the other yesterday, I'm now pissed off I missed a huge can of ADI 2201 from ancient times as I have been using up a small can I have & it is great for the Old girls !


Greetings @Scout,
If I may offer some words of caution about AR2201. AR2201 was replaced by AR2206 around 40 years ago. The Oz Army found that AR2201 produced variable port pressure in the 5.56 and had a poor shelf life especially at high temperatures. Mulwex developed AR2206 which was the first of what was later labled by Hodgdon Extreme powders. Mulwex never manufactured AR2201 as a canister powder for direct sale to the public only offering it to ammunition manufacturers like CAC which packaged it and sold to the public. For this reason load data is variable. I don't doubt for a minute that you are getting excellent results from some carefully stored AR2201 but you may wish to consider using AR2206H which should give as good or perhaps better results in your old girls. This is what I do in my old soldiers. To me using AR2201 with an unknown storage history creats an unneccesary risk.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Scout

@grandpamac lol yes I reckoned it was way old powder & that's why I didn't take the opportunity of the 5lb can but wish I had now,  as this stuff has been working great & it was in a CAC can as I remember .

When I was after data they said the military found it wanting in 7.62X51 - 308 used in the SLR as I remember but I think fine used in shooting boxes, rocks & cans, in my hunting loads I will use another fresh powder as a side bar the most accurate load in a couple of these Oldies has been using .308 bullets in fresh 303 barrels !

Thank you for the note on the powders use grandpamac, much appreciate the knowledge  !

----------


## grandpamac

> @grandpamac lol yes I reckoned it was way old powder & that's why I didn't take the opportunity of the 5lb can but wish I had now,  as this stuff has been working great & it was in a CAC can as I remember .
> 
> When I was after data they said the military found it wanting in 7.62X51 - 308 used in the SLR as I remember but I think fine used in shooting boxes, rocks & cans, in my hunting loads I will use another fresh powder as a side bar the most accurate load in a couple of these Oldies has been using .308 bullets in fresh 303 barrels !
> 
> Thank you for the note on the powders use grandpamac, much appreciate the knowledge  !


Greetings @Scout,
Thanks for your reply and kind words. I would be most interested in some more detail on your .308 projectiles in the .303 (.314) barrel. I had read of people using partition projectles in this way. One of my .303 rifles has a mint two groove barrel and shoots the .303 174 grain RN very very well. It also shoots the .303 Norma 150 grain BT quite well but 150 grain .308 projectiles not that well. I thought about getting some 170 grain .308 flat points for my .30-40 Krag Martini to also try in the .303 but have not done so yet. The Martini shoots the 150 grain RN projectiles so well in spite of a really long throat. All the loads for these rifles use AR2206H.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Micky Duck

if you think about it,a two groove barrel,is something like 80?%  at .303 of an inch sized hole...so a .308 sized projectile gets 5 thou grip over 80% of its surface....

----------


## JohnDuxbury

Try 220 grain .308 bullets in a good .303 bore. The longer bearing surface works better I think.

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## Scout

Yes I use a few of those in the real old Speeders that were regulated for the 215gr slug, but I haven't been shooting any game with them in the 303, lots in the 30/06 back in the day .

Grandpamac I have a mint barreled Westley Richards & she really shoots some 180gr Hornadys I had laying around, flat based slugs ! 

You know I haven't slugged the bores so who knows what they really are ?

I shot some .318 8mm bullets in my worn out BSA sporter & it went from a foot size key hole pattern to small group right on the sights, I first checked that a fired case would release a .318 size bullet !

----------


## grandpamac

> if you think about it,a two groove barrel,is something like 80?%  at .303 of an inch sized hole...so a .308 sized projectile gets 5 thou grip over 80% of its surface....


Greetings Micky and Scout,
That was my thinking. Some data for the two groove barrels that I found gave the bore at .304" and the groove from .316" to .318". The dimensions were developed to suit the Mk VII projectile and gave decent accuracy and long barrel life. Tests with the 175 grain Hornady round nose often give two shots touching at 60 metres but different lots of projectiles can give quite different points of impact. Current production has a blunter shape.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## bumblefoot

I went bush for the day for my 59th birthday. I took 2 goats with the trusty old 1944 Lee Enfield SMLE #1 mk3 .303. Saw another half a dozen goats, but only took what I needed. Filmed it all. Tried to be a wannabe NZ Hunter Adventures. More like Broken Arse Hunter Adventures....  3 cameras: the  phone, Gopro and Panasonic.  Shooting B-roll footage, the whole 9 yards. Even used the tripod....

----------


## Sideshow

This one’s up for auction. 
https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.co...7783&saletype=

----------


## JohnDuxbury

Sigh. They're called Lee-Enfields. Not Enfields. Never. You have to pronounce both of the words. Always goddamit. Dont be that American guy on youtube. Or just stick with three oh three.

----------


## bumblefoot

I've just uploaded a new vid hunting for a goat with the old 303. I've got my Howa's; but still love using the old girl. It has history and character! I'm going to start handloading for it very soon 

"Hunting with a 78 year old .303 British rifle. A hunt on my 59th birthday!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suAO86A8_3U&t=53s

----------


## bumblefoot

My new baby! A BSA 1916 .303 SHTLE III* (FTR) Rifle; now sporting a Nikon 3-9x scope! Going to be so cool hunting with 106-year old rifle!

----------


## Jhon

> My new baby! A BSA 1916 .303 SHTLE III* (FTR) Rifle; now sporting a Nikon 3-9x scope! Going to be so cool hunting with 106-year old rifle!
> 
> Attachment 197612
> 
> Attachment 197614
> 
> Attachment 197617
> 
> Attachment 197622


I think we need to get together and compare notes, tell lies etc as we're almost neighbours lol

----------


## Tahr

What would happen if you took a SMLE and put a decent new modern barrel on it and used appropriate handloads and a half decent well mounted 'scope? What sort of accuracy would it be capable of? Easy MOA?

I would like to go back to the old 3-oh but wouldn't be able to tolerate that awful old 3moa group business.

----------


## bumblefoot

> I think we need to get together and compare notes, tell lies etc as we're almost neighbours lol


Should do eh. I still need to photograph that Lee Loader sheet for you. I keep forgetting; sorry

----------


## bumblefoot

@Tahr  Pretty good I'd say. My 1944 SMLE shoots 3" at 100yds (3 shots) and it only has a 16.5" barrel. I'm not a long range shooter. I do have a Howa 308 and a Howa mini 223; I call my 223 the freezer filler! But my Howas are my Toyota Corolla's; the 303's are me going for a spin in an old jalopy for the sheer hell of it. But really; for the vast majority of NZ hunting (unless you're a LR shooter) a 303 will do the job  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Jhon

> Should do eh. I still need to photograph that Lee Loader sheet for you. I keep forgetting; sorry


Ha, thought I'd have to come knock on yer door:-)

----------


## Cordite

> What would happen if you took a SMLE and put a decent new modern barrel on it and used appropriate handloads and a half decent well mounted 'scope? What sort of accuracy would it be capable of? Easy MOA?
> 
> I would like to go back to the old 3-oh but wouldn't be able to tolerate that awful old 3moa group business.


Tahr, shoot your .303 unsupported and you won't mind or notice it's a  3 MOA rifle. The awful trigger alone will see to that.

----------


## grandpamac

> What would happen if you took a SMLE and put a decent new modern barrel on it and used appropriate handloads and a half decent well mounted 'scope? What sort of accuracy would it be capable of? Easy MOA?
> 
> I would like to go back to the old 3-oh but wouldn't be able to tolerate that awful old 3moa group business.


Greetins All,
I think I have part of the answer to that question. My No4 with a near new two groove barrel often shoots MoA groups with the 174 grain Round Nose Hornady and light loads. It is sensitive to different batches of those projectiles and needs a few shots to settle down after the fore end has been off. My son has requently fallen under the Lee Enfield spell via one with a like new .308 groove barrel and the .303 case. It will be interesting to see how this shoots. There are also some test loads made up to test how much difference there is between my 5 and two groove barrels. The loads have the 174 grain projectiles loaded to 76mm LOA giving a jump of 1.6mm in the two groove and 5.8mm in the 5 groove. Comparing different sets of .303 load data hows some considerable differences in velocity for the same load so this test looks at possible reasons why this is so. Will report results in due course.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Double tap

> What would happen if you took a SMLE and put a decent new modern barrel on it and used appropriate handloads and a half decent well mounted 'scope? What sort of accuracy would it be capable of? Easy MOA?
> 
> I would like to go back to the old 3-oh but wouldn't be able to tolerate that awful old 3moa group business.


I was given a long branch no 4 mk 1* it has had a barrel swap at some time and the bolt is also not original but it shoots very well my first 3 shot group at 100 yards blew me away at just over an inch with mill surp ammo using the aperture sight 
So yeah they can be very accurate with a good barrel

----------


## 6x47

The big issue is that they don't tend to stay accurate. The bedding is so tenuous that the "tuning" drifts over time.

In the old NRA days of .303 shooting, the guys that won invariably had clever gunsmiths that could get them into tune. These days, TR shooters can buy damn near any second hand rifle and have a good chance if their skills are up to it.

----------


## 6x47

..

----------


## Jhon

> The big issue is that they don't tend to stay accurate. The bedding is so tenuous that the "tuning" drifts over time.
> 
> In the old NRA days of .303 shooting, the guys that won invariably had clever gunsmiths that could get them into tune. These days, TR shooters can buy damn near any second hand rifle and have a good chance if their skills are up to it.


Treat them like a bow,   get closer  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## 300_BLK

i ike many would love a ruger single shot (No 1) in 303

----------


## akaroa1

> i ike many would love a ruger single shot (No 1) in 303


Sort of an old school Ruger #1 303

I just brought this 
Remington sporting rolling block #5 303

----------


## rockland

very cool akaroa1

I read a great review of the Ruger No.1 .303 in NZ Guns magazine, it was throated for the long 220 gr projectiles.  I guess your Remington will be too?

let us know how she shoots!

----------


## akaroa1

Well @rockland you don't see any shooting reviews on rifles like this

They very rarely for shot and even less hunted with
But I have been after one of these for a while 

There were only ever 198 sporting rifle  #5s made in a handful of calibers 
It is thought that only 28 were ever made in 303 British
It looks like at least 5 are known to be in NZ 
So that's a fairly high number of the original 28

And this will be shot and it will be hunted with
I expect it to be pretty effective 
First up are some new old stock Norma 180 grain spire points

----------


## JohnDuxbury

> What would happen if you took a SMLE and put a decent new modern barrel on it and used appropriate handloads and a half decent well mounted 'scope? What sort of accuracy would it be capable of? Easy MOA?
> 
> I would like to go back to the old 3-oh but wouldn't be able to tolerate that awful old 3moa group business.



Tahr, my .303 has an excellent bore and will shoot 1.5 inch groups with the army open sights. With a scope who knows, maybe a bit better. But this is with handloads. With PPU or Winchester factory ammo it will do 3 - 4 inch groups  so I thin a lot of the problem is the factory ammo. (When I say "handloads", I mean I loaded up the cheapest bullet with the max load in the ADI book and then shot it a couple of times. It's a .303.)

----------


## JohnDuxbury

I am thinking of putting one of those mini red dot sights on my .303, like the Burris Fastfire. The coolness of this idea has quite overexcited me.

Heres on on a Garand type thing:

----------


## JohnDuxbury

> Well @rockland you don't see any shooting reviews on rifles like this
> 
> They very rarely for shot and even less hunted with
> But I have been after one of these for a while 
> 
> There were only ever 198 sporting rifle  #5s made in a handful of calibers 
> It is thought that only 28 were ever made in 303 British
> It looks like at least 5 are known to be in NZ 
> So that's a fairly high number of the original 28
> ...


Goddamit where do you find these things. I would kill for that one. But is it for blackpowder or cordite does it say on the barrel?

----------


## akaroa1

@JohnDuxbury the RRB #5s are full nitro proof 

This model is from 1897 because it has the high extractor location screw 
There were a number of subtle variations on the #5 action but they were all nitro

There were thousands of military #5s made 
Mostly in 7x57 and they had a different extractor that's screw was much lower in the frame

----------


## JohnDuxbury

> @JohnDuxbury the RRB #5s are full nitro proof 
> 
> This model is from 1897 because it has the high extractor location screw 
> There were a number of subtle variations on the #5 action but they were all nitro
> 
> There were thousands of military #5s made 
> Mostly in 7x57 and they had a different extractor that's screw was much lower in the frame


Yes, you're right, I forgot about all the 7x57's.

----------


## bumblefoot

@akaroa1 Did I see that on TM? It looks familiar  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## grandpamac

> i ike many would love a ruger single shot (No 1) in 303


I am part of that extensive club as well. Contemporary reports on accuracy or The Riger No 1 in .303 varied between tack driver and poor accuracy which put me of rather. Hard to justify when you already have two No4's and a Martini in .30-40 Krag all of which shoot pretty well.
GPM.

----------


## grandpamac

> Sort of an old school Ruger #1 303
> 
> I just brought this 
> Remington sporting rolling block #5 303
> 
> Attachment 198129
> 
> Attachment 198130


 @akaroa1,
You are a very bad man. Fancy posting pic's of a rifle like that without prior warning. I fired a Remington rolling block in 50-90 IIRC and a Remington Hepburn in 38-55 many years ago which has left me with a weakness for nice old single shot rifles, or nice not so old single shot rifles. Every time I see one I have arguments with myself which go like this:

Gee thats a nice rifle.
What would you do with another rifle. You hardly use some of the ones you have?
But a (insert name of current rifle of interest here) would be good for (insert current fantasy uses here).

You get the idea. This can go on for a few hours until my tightwad tendancies triumph and nothing happens. One day perhaps.
Regards Grandpamac

----------


## Danger Mouse

303 no4 mk2 at 100m

----------


## akaroa1

> @akaroa1,
> You are a very bad man. Fancy posting pic's of a rifle like that without prior warning. I fired a Remington rolling block in 50-90 IIRC and a Remington Hepburn in 38-55 many years ago which has left me with a weakness for nice old single shot rifles, or nice not so old single shot rifles. Every time I see one I have arguments with myself which go like this:
> 
> Gee thats a nice rifle.
> What would you do with another rifle. You hardly use some of the ones you have?
> But a (insert name of current rifle of interest here) would be good for (insert current fantasy uses here).
> 
> You get the idea. This can go on for a few hours until my tightwad tendancies triumph and nothing happens. One day perhaps.
> Regards Grandpamac


 @grandpamac I'm genuinely sorry to have caused so much pain and torment

I will PM you with 24 hours notice before I drop any images of a single shot vintage rifle

----------


## Pengy

I have a 303 here suitable for a project or parts. Bolt is broken. Cant find the mag. No butt plate.
Not interested in posting at all, so will need to collect from Nelson area. 
FREE

Previous owner has returned to Texas

Stamped : GR BSA 1918 Sht LE

----------


## XR500

> What would happen if you took a SMLE and put a decent new modern barrel on it and used appropriate handloads and a half decent well mounted 'scope? What sort of accuracy would it be capable of? Easy MOA?
> 
> I would like to go back to the old 3-oh but wouldn't be able to tolerate that awful old 3moa group business.


My old fully wooded free floated barrel #4 mk2 with peep sights regularly shot 25-30mm 5 shot groups with ex mil ammo. It sure was a honey. Should have NEVER got rid of it :Sad:

----------


## Nzcoup1

Sounds good, will take her.

----------


## akaroa1

So what's the best 174 / 180 grain  jacketed bullets available in stock for deer out to 200 yards ?

----------


## grandpamac

> So what's the best 174 / 180 grain  jacketed bullets available in stock for deer out to 200 yards ?


Greetings,
I have found that the 174 grain Hornady round nose has given excellent accuracy in 3 different barrels, one of them badly pitted. Can't comment personally on performance on deer though. Availability could be another matter altogether.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Pengy

> Sounds good, will take her.


I sent you a PM with contact details

----------


## bumblefoot

@grandpamac I used to use them in my SMLE. No goat, pig or deer ever walked away. I've been trying to source a box or 2 but every store is out Cheers  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings @bumblefoot and all.
This thread has struck again. Barrel looked very good until I ran a couple of patches through it and it looked even better. From a friend as surplus to requirements. Just need to sort out some sights, cook up some light loads and we are off to the bush. I had forgotten how light these No1 rifles can be.
Regards Grandpamac.Attachment 198374

----------


## akaroa1

[/quote] Contemporary reports on accuracy or The Riger No 1 in .303 varied between tack driver and poor accuracy which put me of rather. .[/QUOTE]

Contemporary reports on people's ability to shoot vary between tack driver and poor

So I would hardly blame the rifle

----------


## bumblefoot

@grandpamac Awesome. I haven't even had time yet to put a shot through my new/old rifle. How dare work get it in the way of fun  :Wink:

----------


## bumblefoot

Well I took my new/old girl out to the farm to stick a few shots through her. I just bore sighted it and fired 6 shots. The last 3 I fired at a 30m target to get a rough idea what she was shooting like. 

I was shooting off a Caldwell Tackdriver that was sitting on a wooden fence at about 3/4 below my usual standing shooting position. So not the most sturdy or stable. But my bore-sighting was pretty close. It shot 2 shots into 2-inches even from that unstable position. I can't wait to see what it'll do from a stable prone position. I'm stoked the way it shoots for a 106 year old rifle! I was using PPU 180-grain ammo

----------


## bumblefoot

Actually; looking again, it's closer to 1" Here's a short vid of the first shots out of the old girl. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl46ATbxkq0

----------


## bumblefoot

@grandpamac  Finally put a few rounds through the old girl!

----------


## Micky Duck

watching the video ...you arent wrong about handicapping yourself!!!!!

----------


## bumblefoot

The 2 shots at the target were worse.... Balancing the bag on the fence and bending the  knees like I was doing a 3/4 squat  :Grin:  I just wanted to see how she'd go. The shots in the vid were just me killing a clay bank  :Wink:  A proper sight in will be in the next week or so; weather and work depending!

But it definitley looks promising. I'd say the rifle has hardly been used since the FTR was done. The action is super tight

----------


## PeteD

Out of intrest what sort of groups are people getting out of the old girls?
There note really bench rest rifle's and my aging eyes are probably the limiting factor but intrested to know what people are able to achieve.

----------


## PeteD

Out of intrest what sort of groups are people getting out of the old girls?
There note really bench rest rifle's and my aging eyes are probably the limiting factor but intrested to know what people are able to achieve.

----------


## grandpamac

> @grandpamac  Finally put a few rounds through the old girl!


Greetings @bumblefoot,
I am going to scope my latest .303 but I am dithering about mounts. The rifle has bee drilled for a Parker Hale base and I have both some low and high rings that I could use plus I have the screws I would need. To me the rear screw holes look a bit out of line and I would need to find a base. The option in to modify a one peice Weaver base to fit so a bit of head scratching is needed. It is not as though I need the rifle for next week end. Time will tell.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Micky Duck

> Out of intrest what sort of groups are people getting out of the old girls?
> There note really bench rest rifle's and my aging eyes are probably the limiting factor but intrested to know what people are able to achieve.


3-4inches was the specs they were built to achieve.....any better than that is very good going. still a very dead deer at under 200 yards.

----------


## bumblefoot

Well the old girl delivered the goods today. 106 years old and still filling the freezer  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## HILLBILLYHUNTERS

Hell you don't look that old .

----------


## Micky Duck

lovely eating them there "handbag deerzies"  lovely to carry out too.....much easier than a big red LOL.

----------


## bumblefoot

> Hell you don't look that old .


I feel like it some days  :Wink:

----------


## bumblefoot

> lovely eating them there "handbag deerzies"  lovely to carry out too.....much easier than a big red LOL.


No reds where I was. Today was one of those "It it's brown. it's down" days. Just to try the old girl out

----------


## -BW-

I wish that increased popularity of using the .303 translated to more importers and retailers stocking more variety of .311 projectiles  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## akaroa1

> @grandpamac I'm genuinely sorry to have caused so much pain and torment
> 
> I will PM you with 24 hours notice before I drop any images of a single shot vintage rifle


 @grandpamac I feel it only decent to warn you that the Remington #5 303 is now in my possession where it belongs
It has passed inspection this evening and after a decent bore cleaning in the morning and some hand loads being constructed it is likely to be fired and the results posted here 
With graphic pictures 

So you might want to look away for a few days  or weeks
I'm not responcilble if you do peek

----------


## RV1

Out of interest, does anyone still make new rifles in .303 ?  Or is it simply seen as an old-fashioned and out-dated cartridge and manufacturers need to sell product so...

----------


## akaroa1

> Out of interest, does anyone still make new rifles in .303 ?  Or is it simply seen as an old-fashioned and out-dated cartridge and manufacturers need to sell product so...


Uberti do a Winchester 1885 303 reproduction 
But in my opinion they got it all wrong with the stock and the modern scope rib

----------


## grandpamac

> @grandpamac I feel it only decent to warn you that the Remington #5 303 is now in my possession where it belongs
> It has passed inspection this evening and after a decent bore cleaning in the morning and some hand loads being constructed it is likely to be fired and the results posted here 
> With graphic pictures 
> 
> So you might want to look away for a few days  or weeks
> I'm not responcilble if you do peek


Thankyou @akaroa1,
Over the past week or so I have developed some coping straregies and have a back up plan of a quiet room with some soothing recordings of rifle fire on the range that I have recorded for this purpose. With this and your kind warning I should be OK. I must say that I am quite looking forward to your report. This last week I gave my son my No4 iron sight rifle that I no longer use and he sent back a photo of it with fore and top wood very similar to that used on some No4 .308 conversions. It certainly looked better than when it left here. This was useful training for your forthcoming report.
Many thanks Grandpamac.

----------


## bumblefoot

Here ya go @grandpamac Who says Lee Enfields have weak actions?  :Wink:  "Lee-Enfield No.4 Action Extreme Stress Test"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bhWxFbYdyw

----------


## akaroa1

> Thankyou @akaroa1,
> Over the past week or so I have developed some coping straregies and have a back up plan of a quiet room with some soothing recordings of rifle fire on the range that I have recorded for this purpose. With this and your kind warning I should be OK. I must say that I am quite looking forward to your report. This last week I gave my son my No4 iron sight rifle that I no longer use and he sent back a photo of it with fore and top wood very similar to that used on some No4 .308 conversions. It certainly looked better than when it left here. This was useful training for your forthcoming report.
> Many thanks Grandpamac.


 @grandpamac you are safe from the padded room for a while more
I struck a very significant problem this morning and won't be test firing for some time

The joys of owning historically significant vintage rifles and wanting to shoot them
I don't blame the previous owner because unless you were going to shoot it you wouldn't have found this problem

Problems are just solutions waiting to be implemented

----------


## bumblefoot

A real short vid of the first shots through my new girl  :Have A Nice Day:  I've fallen for an older lady called Lee..... Lee-Enfield.....  :Grin: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-42KMIazSzY&t=3s

----------


## Double tap

100 yards using knee as a rest 
It’s all over but the grilling.

----------


## grandpamac

> 100 yards using knee as a rest Attachment 200177
> Its all over but the grilling.


All that and with iron sights too.
GPM.
PS. The dog looks so happy I have to ask. Did you shoot the deer or was it the dog?

----------


## Double tap

> All that and with iron sights too.
> GPM.
> PS. The dog looks so happy I have to ask. Did you shoot the deer or was it the dog?


Ha yeah he probably thinks it was all his doing

----------


## bumblefoot

Spent the afternoon sighting in the old .303 . Absolutely stoked the way the 106 year old girl shoots. Averaged 3 inch, 3-shot groups at 100 yards when I did my job correctly, and even a couple of 2 inch groups! And that was using PPU ammo too. I  found that the PPU wasn't as accurate in my 308 as the Sako Gamehead

It would probably do better with a more accomplished shooter as my shooting ability is always the weakest link in the chain. For me, the lack of a cheek weld is the hardest thing to overcome.

The Nikon Buckmaster scope was problematical. It holds zero, but it's click adjustments aren't as accurate as I'd like. When I start reloading for the rifle I'll probably replace the scope. I have a Bushnell Elite 3-8x on my 308 and an Elite 2.5-10x on the 223 and their adjustments are reliable. So I'll keep my eye out for a suitable 3-9x

----------


## Micky Duck

the cheek weld thing has been fixed many times over..pair of wooly socks,one over the buttplate up onto stock and stuff the other one inside it to raise check rest...I must have seen 50-100 different solutions to this over the years.close cell foam mattress and duct tape.... block of wood cut to shape and glued on... fancy doweled on piece of wood.... plastic riser..... canvas pad laced on..... try the socks first...cheap as .

----------


## bumblefoot

I will try the socks for sighting in. It's in too nice condition to alter the stock. I'm stoked with how well she shoots though

----------


## Allizdog

Well 2 inches is easy a deer down at 100 yards at least going by the dinner plate rule.

----------


## bumblefoot

> Well 2 inches is easy a deer down at 100 yards at least going by the dinner plate rule.


Definitely. It really amazes me how well it shoots  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## grandpamac

> the cheek weld thing has been fixed many times over..pair of wooly socks,one over the buttplate up onto stock and stuff the other one inside it to raise check rest...I must have seen 50-100 different solutions to this over the years.close cell foam mattress and duct tape.... block of wood cut to shape and glued on... fancy doweled on piece of wood.... plastic riser..... canvas pad laced on..... try the socks first...cheap as .


I get a reasonable chin or jaw weld aided by some natural facial padding but thats just me.
GPM.

----------


## akaroa1

@grandpamac warning !

I have the repaired hammer back in the Remington rolling block no5 303 and expect to fire it tomorrow 

This might cause some distress so You might want too look away now

----------


## akaroa1

While I had the scales in the workshop I put it on and it's exactly 7 pounds even 
So a bit on the light side for a 303 but handy in a sporting rifle that won't be shot often

----------


## akaroa1

First range session was a total success 
5 rounds at 50 yards from a standing rest
Worse than useless buck horn sights 





The tang is tapped for a Lyman or similar staff tang sight 
These are pretty challenging as is 


And as expected if you get this in the wrong position with a 7 pound 303 it's has a nasty bite

----------


## grandpamac

> First range session was a total success 
> 5 rounds at 50 yards from a standing rest
> Worse than useless buck horn sights 
> 
> Attachment 202227
> 
> Attachment 202228
> 
> The tang is tapped for a Lyman or similar staff tang sight 
> ...


Greetings @akaroa1 and all,
Well I survived that well. Any envy quickly turned to sympathy for akaroa1 when I saw that brutal but plate and remembered some very impolite things said about vintage Remington butt plates in articles I have read. My mind has had a work out lately on things .303 which has made me wonder just what it is that drives our interest in these neat old rifles. Most of we men of a certain age have enough modern rifles for any conceivable use plus more but we still delight in playing about with these old war relics. Yesterday I visited one of our local bang stick emporiums to pick up some surplus Greek projectiles for you know what. There was an impressive rack of new rifles mostly stainless synthetic but right down one end there were some .303's incuding some original ones (there was one Martini), The prices taped to them showed plenty of demand. 
So what is it that drives us to collect and use these old rifles? Is it their age or use in most of the great battles of the twentieth century? Is it the challange of getting them shooting well? Is it the challenge of hunting with something that is older than most of us? Frankly I don't know but am just thankful that something does.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Micky Duck

you do realize there are still slip on recoil pads in the shops??????

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings again @akaroa1, 
What was the load you were using? Those last three shots are a pretty decent group regardless of the sights. Probably the first time it has been fired in a bit.
GPM.

----------


## akaroa1

@grandpamac it was a very respectful load of 41 grains W760 ball powder behind 180 grain Norma projectiles

And somewhat surprisingly the bullets are .310 and boat tail so more likely to be sub optimal in a vintage bore

But I'm very happy with the results
Have 20 more loaded ready to go
And looking for a suitable tang sight to make it more practical to shoot

----------


## akaroa1

By respectful I mean a very mild load in a rather valuable 122 year old rifle that's unlikely to have been fired in a very long time

----------


## Micky Duck

if she does that good with a boat tail hard as nails Norma ......... the mind boggles what she will do with a flat base speer....

----------


## akaroa1

> if she does that good with a boat tail hard as nails Norma ......... the mind boggles what she will do with a flat base speer....


Yes it's a respectable first got out

Because it's so rare I won't fire it at targets again until I sort a tang sight
Pointless exercise the way it is because so difficult 
But it's hunting ready as is

----------


## akaroa1

If anyone knows where I can buy  .311 flat base 174 - 180 grainers please advise

----------


## omark

> If anyone knows where I can buy  .311 flat base 174 - 180 grainers please advise


Pull from the Greek junk that gun city are selling

----------


## akaroa1

> Pull from the Greek junk that gun city are selling


Sporting soft point !

----------


## bumblefoot

@grandpamac  For me, the old rifles and particularly the 303 is that they have character and an iconic NZ history. I love my little 223, but now reach for the 303 more often. What I've found interesting is that the "birthday hunt with my 303"  YouTube video I posted a couple of months ago has already gone through 19k views and will do 20k by next week. That shows me that there is still a lot of interest in the 303. And; the vid was just me shooting a goat for the freezer; nothing exotic!

----------


## Jusepy

Wish this weather would clear up so I can fire a few rounds through the ol 303.

----------


## grandpamac

> @grandpamac  For me, the old rifles and particularly the 303 is that they have character and an iconic NZ history. I love my little 223, but now reach for the 303 more often. What I've found interesting is that the "birthday hunt with my 303"  YouTube video I posted a couple of months ago has already gone through 19k views and will do 20k by next week. That shows me that there is still a lot of interest in the 303. And; the vid was just me shooting a goat for the freezer; nothing exotic!


Greetings @bumblefoot and all.
I think for me it is the association with people I know or more often these days have known. The current .303 of interest was given to me by a friend who can no longer hunt. It will also be a rough copy of my first ever rifle bought in the late 1960's. More info will follow with pictures even.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings All,
Have just been up to my bench to put a couple of rounds through my new to me No1 .303. It is close to centre at 60 metres so will do a final zero at the range on Sunday. ome Grandpa walks are planned with it once things dry out a bit.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Barry the hunter

yes the old faithfull 303 - shot my first deer at 16 with my fullbore rifle -complete with parker hale aperture- tunnel foresight and blade -had shot 200 and 300 shoot day before at Gisborne range -was all I had and it did the job -army ammo and all

----------


## omark

The Best Buy was a cut down smellie at the tauranga gun show with a shot out barrel for $650…. I tried to convince some of the lads but they were not keen. 

The usual Junk that gets rolled out was there. I’m a little sick of the dealers using it as a venue to get rid of their junk
Apart from a couple of dealers I don’t know and the likes of graham champion at least 50% of the stuff on the tables should be taken to the tip….

----------


## Barry the hunter

yes I know what you mean  If you want to see a shocker have a look at the early Browning semi auto .22 for sale on trade me out of Tauranga - now it says some corrosion in bore and they at least have been decent enough to provide two photos - holy crap it has major compression rings and really should not be fired

----------


## bumblefoot

Took the 106-year old girl out for a walk the other day. Been a heap of pigs out, but think the pig hunters beat me to them. Waited til dark, but no luck. Nice to take the rifle for another walk though

----------


## shift14

Dads sporterised Long Tom. Bolt and action numbers match, but has been rebarreled.



In use 55 I think, Fiordland.

Going by the wood, its the center rifle.





He would have been 100 this November. 
So this is quite timely.
Ive scrubbed and patched it out. Had it all apart and scrubbed and degunged everything.
When weather and time permits Ill go out to the farm and have play. 
I have zero expectations, but our boy wants to use it as is down south, so fingers crossed.

B

----------


## bumblefoot

@shift14  That's awesome!!!  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## john m

My Long Tom sporter

----------


## grandpamac

Greetings @bumblefoot and all,
A nice calm day today so I finally got to do a rough sight in on my latest new to me .303. As reported earlier in another thread the rifle was given to me by a friend and has been returned to shooting condition using components from my parts cupboard and those donated by others including Forum members. The rifle had previously had a preliminary firing using loads cobbled together with some of the Greek 174 grain projectles. Today the loads contained 174 grain Hornady round nose projectiles and had been adopted from another .303 that now lives somewhere else. These were very light loads used for shooting targets. Scope is an old 2.5 power Tasco that I bought new around 40 years ago. First shot was right followed by an adjustment. Next shot was left so split the diff and the last shot will do for now. Shooting was done on my 60 metre Casual Sighting in Range here at home and further testing, including some more load developement, will be done on one of the two rifle ranges I frequent.
Many will wonder why I bother with an old relic when my rifle safe bulges with more modern and more capable rifles and I can only say that it I enjoy doing it. At some time in the coming weeks the rifle and I will embark on one of my mid week grandpa walks in the Kawekas and I will enjoy that too.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## bumblefoot

"Many will wonder why I bother with an old relic" People have often said that about me.....  :Grin:

----------


## bumblefoot

Here's a little vid I did of my first hunt with the 1916 girl in case anyone has a lazy 8 or so minutes  :Have A Nice Day:  No big stags/bucks, but a fun hunt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwbXTk3mSW0&t=426s

----------


## csmiffy

> "Many will wonder why I bother with an old relic" People have often said that about me.....


Nah maybe they said that about your missus lol

----------


## Russian 22.

> Dads sporterised Long Tom. Bolt and action numbers match, but has been rebarreled.
> 
> Attachment 204240
> 
> In use ‘55 I think, Fiordland.
> 
> Going by the wood, it’s the center rifle.
> 
> Attachment 204241
> ...


Your dad looks like he's taking a gentleman's retreat just after ww1 with the way his uniform looks

----------


## Old_School

Very interesting read in this thread.
Seems im not the only one after a three oh, it was about 10 years ago when we bumped into a DOC ranger in the bush while on a hunt and he looked my mates .303 and said to him it would have been better to have left it in the cabinet!

----------


## bumblefoot

> Very interesting read in this thread. Seems im not the only one after a three oh, it was about 10 years ago when we bumped into a DOC ranger in the bush while on a hunt and he looked my mates .303 and said to him it would have been better to have left it in the cabinet!


I have people look at me like that too. But who cares eh?  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## bumblefoot

@grandpamac My mate in Aussie just sent me this. It's not very high resolution, but interesting. I didn't know they re-barrelled .303s to .375?

----------


## akaroa1

I have generally found the exact opposite down here 

Leave my muzzleloader or vintage rifle outside when I arrive at a hut
Meet the strangers there and just look like an average old guy out hunting 
Quietly bring rifle inside when I know they aren't freaked out by such things
When they notice it's a bit out of the ordinary then they all want to see it

Met some nice guys this way and kept in touch with a few

Some are astonished when you shoot a deer 10 minutes from the hut while they are still sleeping off their excesses of the night before

----------


## grandpamac

> @grandpamac My mate in Aussie just sent me this. It's not very high resolution, but interesting. I didn't know they re-barrelled .303s to .375? 
> 
> Attachment 211058


Those are all pre WW1 rifles with the bolt cover and magazine cut of. Eight pounds five shillings ($16.50) for the cheapest, and with a pistol grip stock too. Possibly the .375 cartridge was just a .303 necked up? Or it could be the .375 Flanged Nitro Express (2 1/2") which has a slightly longer case.
GPM.

----------


## akaroa1

@Scout will be able to expand on the 375s in LEs

He's either got or had some of them

----------


## Sideshow

https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.co...185990&image=0

Here ya go boys drool over this…. :Thumbsup:

----------


## bumblefoot

> https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.co...185990&image=0 Here ya go boys drool over this….


Could you put an R18 XXX rating on that please? To much for my old ticker.....  :Grin:

----------


## akaroa1

> https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.co...185990&image=0
> 
> Here ya go boys drool over this….


Pretty low estimate on price and glaring typo 1980 probably should be 1890 ?

----------


## JohnDuxbury

> Pretty low estimate on price and glaring typo 1980 probably should be 1890 ?



Thats a sporting rifle built on an SMLE. Its probably from the 1950's going by the stock. not the same thing as the fine sporting rifles they were making pre WW1...

----------


## JohnDuxbury

My old BSA sporting rifle with the Lee Speed tang safety...

----------


## akaroa1

> My old BSA sporting rifle with the Lee Speed tang safety...


Nice walnut

----------


## csmiffy

> My old BSA sporting rifle with the Lee Speed tang safety...


Yeah that is a cracking rifle

----------


## Scout

> Yeah that is a cracking rifle


Yes one of mine & looking much better now with a Lee Speed Full Rib barrel fitted as opposed to the stuffed MLE barrel that was on it then.

As stated above .375 in the Speeders is the .375 EX 2 1/2in, I have a couple of them & one 8mm which is the 8X50R that I'm after the brass for just now .

Funny I just got home this very minute with another SMLE 303, fitted with a nice H barrel in good nick & P&H target peep sight.

Greener was one of the few company's that built there own Sporters & Lee Speeds (which are mostly BSA Sporters/Lee Speeds) I have one of those also, it is a cool old rifle, mine unfortunately has a very tired barrel, the early ones were full Lee Speeds, that one at Holts may have been reproved in 1980 ?

----------


## akaroa1

> Yes one of mine & looking much better now with a Lee Speed Full Rib barrel fitted as opposed to the stuffed MLE barrel that was on it then.
> 
> As stated above .375 in the Speeders is the .375 EX 2 1/2in, I have a couple of them & one 8mm which is the 8X50R that I'm after the brass for just now .
> 
> Funny I just got home this very minute with another SMLE 303, fitted with a nice H barrel in good nick & P&H target peep sight.


Makes a nice change from the rusty garden stakes you usually get given

----------


## Scout

Haha yes that is very true bud !

I actually just rang him to say I need to give him more money as barrel is excellent, he couldn't get the bolt out because of the P&H sight & assumed it was poked !

----------


## JohnDuxbury

Just spent an hour loading up some military ball for my old SMLE. It has a like-new barrel on it and shoots very well, my eyes are getting too old to shoot with open sights like I used to, but I can still shoot the .303 although I now have an aperture sight to put on it (not a target sight, just a little peep sight. This is a hunting rifle) This is how it shoots with 180 Speer round noses and full load of AR2209:

----------


## csmiffy

Out of interest what has everyone found as the best 180ish grain hunting projectile assuming it shoots ok out of particular rifle?
170gr sst, 180gr RN?

----------


## csmiffy

Apologies, thought the sst was 170. It's only 150

----------


## Scout

I shoot .308 bullets in a couple of mine that have good bores 180gr Hornady Spitzers & in a couple of worn Speeders I shoot Norma 196gr .318 bullets .

Before that the Hornady 174gr RN & Spitzer, don't shoot the Old girls far so RN is Ok !



The 180gr Hornady.

----------


## JohnDuxbury

180 grain Speer RN is good, the 174 grain Hornady RN is good. The Winchester 180 Power Point SP is good. The Highland / PPU 180 Grain BTSP is good. (I have not shot anything with 150 grainers as far as I know. I think.) 

If you have an old bore, dont shoot boat tails in it, flat base will shoot better. 220 grain .308 may shoot in a good .303 bore.

Good idea from SCout re shooting .318 bullets in a worn or large bore

----------


## csmiffy

Haha seems all the good flat base are round nose.
Pity powerpoint arent available to reload

----------


## JohnDuxbury

That's more my selection bias, I like heavy round nose bullets on game; they are also very accurate.

----------


## Mooseman

Been mucking around with my 80 year old Isophore MKI No III for a while and recently got hold of some PPU 180 gr SP bullets. I loaded some up with 39 grs 0f Win 748 which clocked just under 2300 fps. I also have recently found some Staball 6.5 which is suitable for the 303 along with a raft of other calibers ( burn rate similar to AR 2209) so is a useful powder. These were loaded at 46 grs with the 180 gr PPU.( 47.8 grs is Max )and clocked in at 2341 fps av which isn't to bad a speed. My rifle has a 25 inch barrel.


Anyway today I took it out for a bit of a shoot, my rifle has open sights, V rear and a straight blade up front. I set up a target (4 inch squares ) at 60 yards, I have great difficulty using open sight now and even with glasses on the rear sight is a bit fuzzy making precise aiming hard.
I shot three rounds of each of the 180 gr loads and 2 rounds with some 150 Hornady loads I had on hand and was pretty pleased with the result.
Load one with 39 grs Win 748 / 180 gr PPU put three shots into 1 3/4 inches, load two 46 grs StaBall 6.5 / 180 gr PPU did 2 inches and the 150 gr Hornady with 42 grs RL 15 went into 3.5 inches.




For an 80 year old rifle and some tired eyes shooting it it was a pretty good result I thought.

----------


## Trout

Good shooting for old eyes and rifle,i wouldnt want to be your target at a hundy.Yrs ago i worked with a guy who use to be in his fathers fencing gang around TeAnu and up the milford road abit(1950-60s).They always shot deer where ever they had smokos.Thing was they never left their smoko wagon to shoot deer.Deer were always in range of their 303s.They made more money selling meat than fencing.

----------


## 00buck

Good idea from SCout re shooting .318 bullets in a worn or large bore


Just make sure your seating/crimping die has enough clearance for the oversize bullets- mine didn't.

----------


## JohnDuxbury

Here is the military ball load I have been shooting, its Greek 174 grain FMJ, loaded with 42 grains of 2208. Shot this group below at 100 m with the military open sights, two inch group which I consider good enough for government work. Velocity clocked at 2525 fps (which is just slightly over book velocity.)
(To be honest I just wanted a cheap load to shoot, but I am also satisfied that deer die just as well with FMJ bullets too...)




Here is a better shot of the rifle itself, standard Lithgow SMLE with a good bore:

----------


## Micky Duck

> https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.co...185990&image=0
> 
> Here ya go boys drool over this….


1980....hmmm suspect thats a century out LOL.

----------


## Cordite

Try again, please, with the image, @JohnDuxbury

At 2" you're getting better accuracy out of the pulled + reloaded HXP than I ever got from HXP factory loads.

----------


## Cordite

> Pretty low estimate on price and glaring typo 1980 probably should be 1890 ?


Not with the charger bridge, that was introduced in the 1900s.  Beauty all the same.

----------


## bumblefoot

My 1916 girl regularly shot like this when I sighted it in with PPU 150's . I think it all comes down to how poked the barrel is. Also; I used a 3-9x scope. My eyes aren't good enough for irons or low powered scopes! It'll be interesting to see how it shoots when I start handloading

I hit the big six-oh in Feb so am thinking about what trip I should take the rifle on as a celebration...

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## Cordite

> My 1916 girl regularly shot like this when I sighted it in with PPU 150's . I think it all comes down to how poked the barrel is. Also; I used a 3-9x scope. My eyes aren't good enough for irons or low powered scopes! It'll be interesting to see how it shoots when I start handloading
> 
> I hit the big six-oh in Feb so am thinking about what trip I should take the rifle on as a celebration... 
> 
> Attachment 211688


That's dinner plate accuracy, as in, venison on the plate.

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## bumblefoot

> That's dinner plate accuracy, as in, venison on the plate.


That's around 2" group, the dark square outlines are 1" The stick-on dots on the target are the small ones   :Have A Nice Day:

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## Jhon

Try 180s

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## akaroa1

> Try 180s


Or even better try 190s
These powder coated, gas checked and sized .314 weigh exactly 190 grains

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## Driverman

> Or even better try 190s
> These powder coated, gas checked and sized .314 weigh exactly 190 grains 
> 
> 
> Attachment 211868
> 
> Attachment 211869


Looks like your casting and coating techniques have really improved. Does the gas check help?

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## akaroa1

> Looks like your casting and coating techniques have really improved. Does the gas check help?


Well my thoughts are that the gas check cant make it any worse and if you want to push cast lead to a decent speed then gas checks and powder coat are the easiest way to do that without having issues with the bore

I'm just having fun making bullets and giving them to friends to try in a range of rifles

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## Cordite

> Well my thoughts are that the gas check cant make it any worse and if you want to push cast lead to a decent speed then gas checks and powder coat are the easiest way to do that without having issues with the bore
> 
> I'm just having fun making bullets and giving them to friends to try in a range of rifles


Most sources on a quick search give reduction of barrel leading as the main purpose for gas checks. Also increased accuracy, but the accuracy could be due to less leading.

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## akaroa1

> Most sources on a quick search give reduction of barrel leading as the main purpose for gas checks. Also increased accuracy, but the accuracy could be due to less leading.


Yes both PC and GC are incremental improvements 
 @Scout has had good results with the 170 grain sized .311 from my other mold

So getting good results with lead in 30 / 303 / 8mm is pretty achievable 
The next big challenge is an accurate cast 22

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## paremata

375 win mag on a Lee Enfield action    https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/marketpl...1?bof=1irf8frd

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## csmiffy

Nice one but a bit steep. Could've done it in 375 2- 1/2 lol
And it's a no4.
They have been done in 45/70 as well

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## akaroa1

> Nice one but a bit steep. Could've done it in 375 2- 1/2 lol
> And it's a no4.
> They have been done in 45/70 as well


Add says 375 Win Mag ... no such thing ?
Barrel engraving is 375 Win

More likely the latter I guess and makes more sense

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## akaroa1

Here's my Remington rolling block no.5 303 ready to go hunting 

Fitted a Marbles tang sight


Made a custom globe front sight



50m two shots with staff at lowest elevation
One shot to correct for windage on rear sight
Ready to test when it's not wet



Ready to go hunting 

Just a shame Remington designed and fitted a pathetic steel butt plate that looks and feels like a ball peen hammer !

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