# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  An accuracy challenge

## gimp

Everyone on the internet seems to have a "subMOA" rifle. Never seem to see too many at the range. Don't see too many subMOA shooters either... Let's see a bit of paper with 5x 5rd groups on it or I'll hit you with a wet fish whenever you mention how well your rifle shoots.

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## gimp

And here's mine I guess. Just mucking around at the range with 6.5x47 on bipod/rear bag at 100m. There were scope adjustments made between groups.





140gr amax, 42.1gr 2209, CCI450, unprepped (aside from FL sizing) lapua brass. 

More practice is needed.

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## leathel

most of my range shooting is just 3 shot check the close loads...then a 5 or ten shot check...... Most of the targets I keep are the test ones for record of the loads
 Like these
243AI


6.5x 6mmRemAI


then I do the odd throw a different pill in and do the same load as another with the same weight.... Not science but time is an issue to much
140sst load but put in 140vld and 140 Amax..2x 5 shot 


243AI 10 shot test, 2 shots then 1 moa left then the 8..... the one to the left the bolt was tight to close so the shoulder needed bumping, interesting that is threw to the left...Harmonics or bad shooting??



bott0m group was the W760 load, 2209 won and became the load I stuck with

7mmSAUM 5 group tests trying to finalize a load.... 140's sorted but still yet to get the time to sort the heavy pill load, got some good groups but yet to confirm them with more than 4 shots...

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## The Claw

I have shot plenty of sub MOA groups, I knew I should have taken photos for moments like this...

Shot 2 5 shot 1/2 MOA groups last night doing load (re)development with my 20 Tactical. Don't have a photo, and I imagine the target will be binned by the time I get home... So will have to discount that one as a myth... 

Only 3 shot groups... Does that count?
6.5-284 - 0.209


7mmWSM - 0.364


243AI - 0.128


Sold both the 7mmWSM and 243AI as sub MOA rifles - did it easily, and consistantly.

Just chucked out a target from my 6.5x47L when we shifted. Had 6 5 shot groups from load development. All measured under 1/2 MOA, 2 were .25 or better...

Just re-read your initial post Gimp, sorry my groups don't count... Not really in the habit of firing 25 rounds at a bit of paper at 100m, apart from load development. So unfortunately I'm just going to have to put you with a wet fish slap, or not mention my rifles accuracy ever...

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## Pop Shot

I know my rifle shoots better than I can with its current laod - is it a *TRUE* half moa rifle?....I would like to think it would come close but in reality probably not with what your asking.

25 rounds at a piece of paper - I'd rather go hunting and try and shoot 25 animals or practise at LR on steel then punch a few holes in paper. 

I will take up the challenge using the old faithful JW15 .22 though  :Have A Nice Day:

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## gimp

Practicing the fundamentals of shooting at 100 meters is a pretty good idea and not a waste of ammunition, at least in my opinion.

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## The Claw

> Practicing the fundamentals of shooting at 100 meters is a pretty good idea and not a waste of ammunition, at least in my opinion.


I agree about the practicing the fundamentals of shooting, and I certainly should practice more... Most of what I do is shooting rocks, plate, etc at longer ranges for practice. Doesn't prove that my rifle(s) is a sub MOA rifle, but what I have done during the load development with each of them gives me the confidence to say that they are sub MOA.

I think I might just put the wheels in motion to switch barrel my Barnard so I can practice more though...

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## mudgripz

Some nice shooting there guys.

Here are sub moa targets from some of my 22s using hunting ammos. Stock standard rifles.

nzrimfire.com &bull; View topic - Three .22 sharpshooters

and more from another marlin 60 - extremely accurate wee shooters. Forget the review and scroll down to sub moa targets.

nzrimfire.com &bull; View topic - Marlin 60 DLX: Range test and pics.

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## Philipo

If you're looking at shooting LR ( 400 + yards etc ) then you need to be testing groups at 400yards, 100y groups can mean diddly squat, whats good @ 100 can be shite @ 500 & vise versa 


also why do the fulla's that test rifles in magazines only shoot poxy 3 shot groups ?

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## leathel

> I agree about the practicing the fundamentals of shooting, and I certainly should practice more... Most of what I do is shooting rocks, plate, etc at longer ranges for practice. Doesn't prove that my rifle(s) is a sub MOA rifle, but what I have done during the load development with each of them gives me the confidence to say that they are sub MOA.
> 
> I think I might just put the wheels in motion to switch barrel my Barnard so I can practice more though...


The money you spend on the second barrel and fitting might as well go to the next 338 barrel....and just get used to shooting the big one so you know it inside out. You might even be surprised how long you barrel lasts if you dont shoot to many to fast  :Pacman: 
 Then one you know it in and out the need to practice lots is gone...just the odd refresher LR shoot :Grin:

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## leathel

> If you're looking at shooting LR ( 400 + yards etc ) then you need to be testing groups at 400yards, 100y groups can mean diddly squat, whats good @ 100 can be shite @ 500 & vise versa 
> 
> 
> also why do the fulla's that test rifles in magazines only shoot poxy 3 shot groups ?


the groups may mean less but the shooting practice re getting used to the gun is important....as long as its done in feild type shooting positions

3 shot groups are indicators...then fine tune with 5 shots is how I do it..... sometimes just the one 5 shot group is done and if it shoots OK good enough for me

 Little paddles make good targets too at 100  :Have A Nice Day:

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## The Claw

> The money you spend on the second barrel and fitting might as well go to the next 338 barrel....and just get used to shooting the big one so you know it inside out. You might even be surprised how long you barrel lasts if you dont shoot to many to fast 
>  Then one you know it in and out the need to practice lots is gone...just the odd refresher LR shoot


True, but I "need" a LR rifle thats able to be supressed... Everything other than ballistics will be the same with the switch barrel setup. Its not as though I don't fire the Lunatic (or am worried about barrel life either), I've put 150 odd rounds through it in the last year. 

There are some pesky hares living near our house (well 800-900m away) and her in doors isn't that impressed with the Lunatic being shot off the deck... I knew I would regret selling my Barnard 6.5x47L...

Anyway, back to the topic now, sorry bout the sidetrack...

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## gimp

> If you're looking at shooting LR ( 400 + yards etc ) then you need to be testing groups at 400yards, 100y groups can mean diddly squat, whats good @ 100 can be shite @ 500 & vise versa 
> 
> 
> also why do the fulla's that test rifles in magazines only shoot poxy 3 shot groups ?



If you've got the right twist rate and consistent speeds then an accurate load at 100 should be an accurate load further out. Load testing at 400 meters would be somewhat ridiculous due to wind etc.

If it's shit at 100 it's never going to be good further out. Your angular dispersion isn't going to improve once the bullet has left the rifle. If you're getting "better" results (in angular terms) at longer ranges than 100 meters it's parallax or something.

The magazines shoot 3-shot groups because it makes the rifles that they are trying to sell look better.


I don't actually like shooting groups at all, it's not the most practical training. That day I was just mucking around with my zero and found the target in my rangebag last night. Always see people saying "my rifle will shoot MOA all day long" etc. Okay, so prove it then.

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## gadgetman

Well you wont be targeting me with that fish either. I certainly can't claim a sub moa rifle, though I suspect I have one, but with my shooting I couldn't tell. I'm consistently getting 28-29mm groups but can't for the life of me figure out how to stop the point I'm aiming at dancing all over the cross hairs. :Pissed Off:  One of these days I should get someone to teach this decrepit old fool how to shoot.

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## The Claw

Sorry, getting off topic a bit here again, but I find the 1st and 8th post quite interesting here:

Severely Overbore Chartidges and short barrel life myths... - LongRangeHunting Online Magazine

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## Mike H

This was a .308 I used to own which I went mad and sold and regret! Typically shot inside half MOA and occasionally when I played my part would do this:

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## gimp

See, that's it. Everyone posts a single outstanding group and says "yeah my rifle will do that all day long". 


I don't even care much about accuracy - if I can consistently hit a 1moa target then that is all that I can practically use. This is why I use standard dies, don't muck around with neck turning and all that. 


Also it seems like people spend forever worrying about how their rifle shoots when it is the driver that is the problem.

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## Mike H

I don't normally save targets as half the time I'm experimenting and theres a few loads on the same page but if you'd like Gimp I shoot a series on one target for you  :Wink:

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## mudgripz

I tend to agree with gimp on one point. Only too common to hear someone say they have a sub MOA rifle, and then you find out it shoots one such group every several outings, or shot one last year or so - while all the other groups tell a different story.

Personally when range testing I* never* go by single groups - always by best four group average. For them to count they must be readily repeatable.

I don't agree however that shooting tight groups on range is of no value. That would be wrong - range shooting in fact teaches you field accuracy. Range and competition shooting sets the standard for precision shooting in the field.

And you would be surprised how many sub MOA rifles there are of various makes and models. Its the sub MOA shooters that are harder to come by..  :Have A Nice Day:

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## veitnamcam

I dont see anyone one here saying "my rifle shoots moa all day long" on here. Trade me yea
The big question is what makes a moa rifle a 3 shot group,a collection of 3 shot groups none of which are over.or a 5 shot group or a collection of em or 5 of those 5 shot groups all in one group.
How much accuracy does one need? two loads one of em factory will shoot constantly under half moa for 3 shot groups in my completely un fiddled with factory rifle.
The loads I actually use shoot a lot worse at around a moa for 3 shots.
Good enough for me. :Thumbsup:

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## gimp

> I dont see anyone one here saying "my rifle shoots moa all day long" on here.





> two loads one of em factory will shoot constantly under half moa for 3 shot groups in my completely un fiddled with factory rifle.




Do go on?

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## gimp

> I don't agree however that shooting tight groups on range is of no value. That would be wrong - range shooting in fact teaches you field accuracy. Range and competition shooting sets the standard for precision shooting in the field.


I never said it's of no value, just not the most practical.

I prefer to shoot single shots at individual 1moa squares, resetting position between shots.

It gives you a more meaningful result towards practical accuracy (ie, hitting things) than shooting a group

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## veitnamcam

One is Belmont 308 win 130gr hp. use as a check if it wont shoot there is some thing wrong with me or my rifle.
The other was a 150gr boat tail inter lock touching the lands with 46gr N140 cci primer fed brass.

Now running Barnes for most(im a bush hobbit) and amax for steel and the odd longish shot. For me this was the logical solution for the ballisticly challenged 308  

Ironically the Barnes close load shoots better(@100) than the amax

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## Tui4Me

Plenty of sub MOA rifles out there. Many of them will shoot well with factory ammo.

I have found more often than not it a persons rest and setup that let's them down rather than their ability to shoot.

Personally I am not interested In wasting time and ammo shooting multiple series of 5 shot groups before I can claim the capability of my rifle and myself.

I sight in my rifle every few months or so at 500 yards. Shoot x2 or x3 shots to check the height. If an adjustment is required I will usually go back the next day and put a single shot in the bull to double check.

Always < 0.5 MOA, less wasted time, components, cleaning and good enough to claim the accuracy of my rifle.

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## P38

Here's what my 112 year old Winchester 1892 25-20wcf can do.



And this is what my Brno ZKK601 .308 can do



Not too fly blown if I say so myself.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## gimp

> I have found more often than not it a persons rest and setup that let's them down rather than their ability to shoot.



You don't think that knowing how to rest their rifle is part of shooting skill?

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## Tui4Me

> You don't think that knowing how to rest their rifle is part of shooting skill?


As you would know there is often a rather casual approach to this. Many see themselves as hunters rather than target shooters and choose not to invest in a shooting bag or bi pod. The same people can shoot very well behind a rifle set up to do the job properly.

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## veitnamcam

> As you would know there is often a rather casual approach to this. Many see themselves as hunters rather than target shooters and choose not to invest in a shooting bag or bi pod. The same people can shoot very well behind a rifle set up to do the job properly.


You just summed me up Tui4me :Thumbsup:  Altho I did shoot smallbore as a kid(prone/sling no rest)
Bench and bags is best but I still prefer to shoot somewhere out of the way(solitude :Thumbsup: ) and prone resting on a rock with a shirt on top. :Grin:

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## Tui4Me

Each to their own aye, nothing like leaning up against a tree and shooting a deer  :Thumbsup:

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## gimp

The shooting culture in NZ is weird. 


For a website titled "hunting and shooting" and a thread in the "shooting" section, people seems strangely upset by the idea of actually shooting. 


I think that the skill of shooting is widely overlooked by the "She'll be right" NZ hunter, probably because it's not necessary for what they do.


Edit: now we're sort of on a different subject entirely than what the original post was, which was "ok, you say your rifle shoots sub "moa" consistently, prove it then"

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## veitnamcam

> The shooting culture in NZ is weird. 
> 
> 
> For a website titled "hunting and shooting" and a thread in the "shooting" section, people seems strangely upset by the idea of actually shooting. 
> 
> 
> I think that the skill of shooting is widely overlooked by the "She'll be right" NZ hunter, probably because it's not necessary for what they do.
> 
> 
> Edit: now we're sort of on a different subject entirely than what the original post was, which was "ok, you say your rifle shoots sub "moa" consistently, prove it then"


Who has said that and what is the criteria for a sub moa shooter? I take it its not 3 shot groups

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## gimp

No-one in particular said "my rifle shoots XX" specifically causing me to make this thread.


Post several consistent 3 round groups if you like. Just don't post "well my rifle shoots consistently less than half MOA" and then a single 3-shot group or worse nothing at all to back it up.

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## veitnamcam

> No-one in particular said "my rifle shoots XX" specifically causing me to make this thread.
> 
> 
> Post several consistent 3 round groups if you like. Just don't post "well my rifle shoots consistently less than half MOA" and then a single 3-shot group or worse nothing at all to back it up.


Ok point taken.I definatly dont have anymore interlock and might have some belmont somewhere hopefully. Otherwise Im sure i can post you some sub moa barnes or amax groups shot prone off a rock :Thumbsup:  It is a long weekend after all so should fit it in :Have A Nice Day:

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## Mike H

I've got a new .308 as of yesterday, if shes a sub MOA shooter I'm gonna take a heap of photos just for gimp  :Have A Nice Day:

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## veitnamcam

It will be its a 308 :Wink:  :Grin:

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## sneeze

Well iv only got 30 rounds left and im 3 weeks away from my reloading bench so im not puting a heap of 280ai through a piee of paper to prove what I already know but will these satisfy?
 600yds trying to sort the wind , nice and constant but some directions have a significant verticle component.
Shot the top and bottom shot then dialed 1//2 moa right as i feared it might miss the plate.


A few days latter still at 600


Few more days at 800yds,first shot was low so dialed up 1/2 moa and shot 3.The round is 3.3in long. just one group per day, cleaned after each outing.


The amax never shot worse than .7 counting all flyers and duffed shots during load development

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## gimp

Here is a bad video I made. Shooting this morning. Need to get a better editing program

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## jakewire

Damn, I'm sure I have a one hole group around here somewhere , and I didn't waste any more than one shot doing it.
Question.... If you have a 6.5mm bullet and all your bullets go in the one hole, does that mean you have a .264" group.
Seems harsh, especially if you do it with a 45-70.

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## gimp

What's up with the attitude that actually shooting is a waste?

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## jakewire

Shooting is not a waste, I like shooting, however on some days it a toss up whether I would rather shoot or wind you up. 
Hard choice sometimes.

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## gimp

> Shooting is not a waste, I like shooting, however on some days it a toss up whether I would rather shoot or wind you up. 
> Hard choice sometimes.



Shooting is easier

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## Normie

> Here is a bad video I made. Shooting this morning. Need to get a better editing program


Looks windy.

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## tui_man2

> *Here is a bad video I made.* Shooting this morning. Need to get a better editing program


+1 :Thumbsup: 

 so yo done a 2 shot group :Wtfsmilie: ......................... :Grin:

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## Philipo

> If you've got the right twist rate and consistent speeds then an accurate load at 100 should be an accurate load further out. Load testing at 400 meters would be somewhat ridiculous due to wind etc.
> 
> If it's shit at 100 it's never going to be good further out. Your angular dispersion isn't going to improve once the bullet has left the rifle. If you're getting "better" results (in angular terms) at longer ranges than 100 meters it's parallax or something.


Blahahaha, As usual Gimp you got the wrong end of the stick ( actually I think you got the end with shit on it   :X X:  )  I do'nt load test at 4hundy I do it at a hundy like most people, then always test & sight the load Ive choosen at 200. 

must admit though that I do'nt shoot as much as I would like to, I surpose it's all about making yourself find the time  :Have A Nice Day:  






> Here is a bad video I made. Shooting this morning. Need to get a better editing program


Fuck a bit slow, I would of blasted that plate with a dozen rounds out the Shorttrac in the time it took ya to shoot those two  :Brzzzzz:   :Grin:

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## Kitto

> Shooting is easier


I think most of the people reading this thread would come to the contrary conclusion  :Grin:

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## Norway

> Need to get a better editing program


...or more practice.
I use the free Windows movie maker, view format 16:9 for full screen.

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## gimp

> ...or more practice.
> I use the free Windows movie maker, view format 16:9 for full screen.



Windows movie maker loses the sound from the AVCHD files that my camera records to.

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## Norway

Challenge accepted. 
Todays shooting.
-6C and 1028 hPa.
Scope not adjusted between loads.
Vertical spread is shooter erro rmethinks.

I have a 0.6 MOA rifle ?

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## veitnamcam

Here is a target shot @ 200m(219y?) was checking POI difference off bags vs pod worst group 1.5" amax best group barnes .67"

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## Beavis

Rock River Arms Elite Operator, two 5 shot groups, 100m resting the vertical grip on a sand bag, rolled up swanny as rear bag, 77gr SMK, 24.1gr Reloder 15. 


Other three holes are from generic fodder made with bulk amount in mind



I'd call this load as "showing promise". Have shot a quite a few sub 1" 3&5 shot groups with a bunch of different factory loads over the time I've had it. It is generally a .75-1MOA shooter off the bench. It's average group size opened up quite a bit until I cleaned the tube properly, but this was after probably 300+ rounds with nothing but the occasional oily patch down it.

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## Wildman

I think gimp is trying to get at the difference in potential accuracy and consistent accuracy. I had a T3 once that every now and then shot a sub-MOA group with cheap ammo but most the time would shoot ~1.5"-2"... Potentially it was a sub-MOA rifle but not consistently... If you want to go bragging about small group sizes step up to the gimp's challenge.

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## veitnamcam

Thats why I posted 4 groups shot in two different styles with 2 different loads,worst under.75 MOA

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## Wildman

> Thats why I posted 4 groups shot in two different styles with 2 different loads,worst under.75 MOA


Was a general comment, wasn't aimed at you so don't panic.

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## veitnamcam

I wasnt :Grin:  
I haven't owned many rifles but I would have thought pretty consistent MOA performance would be the norm for a modern factory rifle with a load that it likes.
Certainly you would be pissed if your mega buck custom rifle wouldnt shoot MOA?

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## Beavis

Only reason I post those two groups is cuz it is the only photographic evidence of how that rifle shoots. Will update next time I shoot it for score. It's up to you guys whether you believe it or not. I won't lie, it shoots like a shotgun with some ammo. I will add that the "all day long" thing does sound really gay. It boggles my mind some of the stuff I've seen at the local range, where guys that have sunk a ton of money into rifles, optics etc have their shots going all over the place. Then the aforementioned " oh yea that's good enough to hit a deer" comes into it. My mate shot like a 7" 3 shot group at 200m with his .270 and thought fuck yea that's good.  You will usually find those kinds of people think that their gear is the shit and you're a wanker if you don't get this caliber or this rifle brand. It's a load of shit and all part of a dumb, immature fudd mentality. But I digress...

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## Wildman

At the Dunedin NZDA range a MOA is about as rare as a Moa most Saturdays, let alone one with 5 shots on 5 different targets.

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## The Claw

OK, here goes my very quick effort with my 20 Tactical. 25.4gr N133, CCI 450's 40gr vmax. Shot a group a minute with a minute between groups. Bipod with small field bag, same as when I'm rabbit shooting. Rate of fire is similar to what it can be like when rabbit shooting too! 0.681 average...

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## Spanners

I like this target as a true test of accuracy and shooting ability.

Maybe we should standardise it for 100??  :Grin:

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## veitnamcam

Or this one Official NRA Small Bore Rifle Targets Long Gun Shooting Targets

Dammit cocked that up but similar with scoring rings

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## Duck Gunner

I haven't really tried to shoot groups before, but I needed to get a windage zero on my f class rifle, so I zeroed my windage, then threw another 5 shots at it just for gimp  :Have A Nice Day: 

First shot was my point of impact, moved it over to zero the windage.

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## distant stalker

Only just read this thread, most of my ammo has been earmarked for the upcoming LR day but could probably manage a few groups with the 223 in a couple of days.

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## crnkin

I love how people complain about other peoples groups.

Its very easy to hold MOA with an accurate rifle and ideal conditions.

Its very hard to hold MOA with an accurate rifle and most hunting conditions.

Deal with it, practice, move on. 

MOA isn't even good, I dont think ive ever seen a rifle that couldnt shoot under MOA with tuning.

Chris

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## baldbob

> I love how people complain about other peoples groups.
> 
> Its very easy to hold MOA with an accurate rifle and ideal conditions.
> 
> Its very hard to hold MOA with an accurate rifle and most hunting conditions.
> 
> Deal with it, practice, move on. 
> 
> MOA isn't even good, I dont think ive ever seen a rifle that couldnt shoot under MOA with tuning.
> ...


I thought long and hard for something smart to say to you, but im so used to you and your "speakings" all ive got is "CRANKN" "CRANKN" "CRANKN" "CRANKN"  "CRANKN"  "CRANKN" .......

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## Dead is better

To me its not IF you can shoot 1" c/c at 100y...It's HOW. If somebody told me they did it on their guts with a bipod i'd be fairly impressed actually. If they did it in a fair breeze i'd also be very impressed. Putting 5 rounds on the same spot only tells me that your wind stayed nice and constant. You're also a guy that can keep his heart rate down too. But as for the capability of a modern rifle, i believe a good shot could pick up ANY T3 or remington or savage and shoot sub MOA. 

I've done it with a spring powered semi recoiless air rifle (an RWS '54) using a shitty simmons 4x scope off a bench. It took me 2 days of endless pellets down range until the wind stopped for a full 5 mins. Thats doing it with only 800ft/sec with 21gn 'barracouda' pellets.  

Im all for sending mountains of lead downrange (i wont be as i cant afford it ha ha). But i do think there's a good balance point between perfectionism and being practical. Enough range time / comp time to ensure that the hunting stays sharp and vice versa.

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## Malhunting

Done this today after i had my rifle bedded, it's only 3 but it is pissing down with rain sporadically today so it was a get it done and go situation.
At 100m of the bonnet of my truck.

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## Tui4Me

> Done this today after i had my rifle bedded, it's only 3 but it is pissing down with rain sporadically today so it was a get it done and go situation.
> At 100m of the bonnet of my truck.


Very nice, its a basterd shooting off a bonnet!

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## Malhunting

Yeah not at all easy but had to be done, away hunting this arvo just hope the rain stops at some stage.
Triangle is 26mm so just over an inch.

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## leathel

> Done this today after i had my rifle bedded, it's only 3 but it is pissing down with rain sporadically today so it was a get it done and go situation.
> At 100m of the bonnet of my truck.




Did that a couple of times in the weekend of my bonnet for the first three shots with the 22-250Ai with 75gr amaxs (well one like it and one close) but it was bloody hard getting five shot groups like it of the bonnet, Mind you I wasn't let it cool between shots either as I was just testing some loads quickly, Forgot the table so couldn't use the chrony...so just banged them off quickly and one load looks to be a keeper  :Grin:

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## Tui4Me

> Did that a couple of times in the weekend of my bonnet for the first three shots with the 22-250Ai with 75gr amaxs (well one like it and one close) but it was bloody hard getting five shot groups like it of the bonnet, Mind you I wasn't let it cool between shots either as I was just testing some loads quickly, Forgot the table so couldn't use the chrony...so just banged them off quickly and one load looks to be a keeper


Freestyler  :Cool:

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## crnkin

> I thought long and hard for something smart to say to you, but im so used to you and your "speakings" all ive got is "CRANKN" "CRANKN" "CRANKN" "CRANKN"  "CRANKN"  "CRANKN" .......


Haha penis. 

I need to come over there for cuddles now your allowed out after hours.

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## leathel

> Freestyler


No point waiting for the rifle to cool each time between shots to much as that is not how it happens in the feild.... Might get the tiny little group but at least the first three must stay tight..... and up here there is F/all rabbits so you dont shoot many more than that in quick repitition so this rig has a lighter barrel.... But it does seam to open up after the first three.....or my shooting turns to shit  :Psmiley:  

A couple of the shots the bypod slid on the bonnet but still happy enough with the load testing to load a bunch for now, will try another powder at some stage for max speed but this will do the owner of the rifle as it shoots further than he can see the rabits with the naked eye.

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## R93

Got a new stainless .223 barrel for the blaser and it shot very well with the first load tried.
Had sort of a go at this challange as well but only fired 5 rounds at 5 marks (not enough ammo) and managed .75 with one bad shot bringing it out to that. Due to having to change position between shots I found I had, as usual, a small vertical influence.
I did rush it and was having a play but I would be seriously happy if I could manage .75 over 10 rounds. I will give it another go with once I settle on a load and hopefully with a member as a witness.

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## kiwijames

> Got a new stainless .223 barrel for the blaser


 Pictures please. Who did the work? I see there is another German outfit selling R93 barrels now too. Did you get the rings you were after?

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## kiwijames

I wanted to try the challenge with my 6BR but the weather was crap and I did not have enough time before I pulled it apart and flogged it off.

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## R93

I managed to get a new saddle mount and 30mm rings for $390.00 Australian. The barrel is a Tiffen (trueflight) special. Yesterday I had to endure a period of ridicule about my liniage and other frailties and he still managed to squander more money out of me.  :15 8 212: 
No I did not know about the other barrels James. 
I will post ya a pic when I get tui mans can fitted in the next day or so.

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## Mike H



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## Tahr

That would be hard to beat Mike. Well done.

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## veitnamcam

From left field, best backing material or perhaps none to get nice round un ripped holes as above ?

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## Spanners

For Sale Signs  :Pacman:

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## Mike H

Took a member out from the FNH forum who wanted to check out his rifle before heading out for the roar. Couldn't help but shoot a couple more groups  :Have A Nice Day:

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## veitnamcam

Very nice Mike :Thumbsup:  Rifle details?

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## tui_man2

where is the target that was goint to be the standard? ddnt some one put up a target that was to be shot at for the challange?

I have a wee 7mm that was test friered tonight, rem700 S/A as a base an can push the 180gr bergers at 3200 accuratly :Thumbsup:  real accurate................i cant find the target to print out but will an will shoot if with witness, this thing blows me away :Thumbsup:  want it to be mine now :X X: 

Good shooting there mike h

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## Spanners

I personally like this one as a challenge

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## tui_man2

> I personally like this one as a challenge



Sweet.......100m or 100yds?

15shots an sighter at bottom so 16shots ill be up there for while........round 80mins to shoot that, but thats all good have other bits to do an test to :Thumbsup:

----------


## Spanners

yds?

----------


## tui_man2

> yds?


That will work im in m but yds will be fine :Thumbsup:

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## Mike H

> Very nice Mike Rifle details?


Its a rifle called a Tikka T3. They're not very common but if you look around you can find them  :Wink: 

This one is the .308 which I wrote about in the firearms section which has just been shortened and fitted with a Hardy suppressor.
Load is 165gn Sierra Gameking HPBT, once fired Winchester brass that was trimmed, primer hole deburred, chamfered, primer pockets cleaned, neck sized with a Lee Collet die etc, 46gns of AR 2206H powder(above max), Federal GM210M primers for 2660fps(at 6ft) and OAL of 2.67" which is well below the typical 2.801" length that most .308 ammo is loaded to. At this length though the projectile is touching the lands due to the long short distance back from the tip that the ogive is.

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## distant stalker

I had a rushed attempt at the challenge last night, barrel got hot so was dealing with a lot of mirage. This rifle will shoot .1" if you take your time and use a finer aiming point. The bottom 2 groups are actually 4 shots with the bottom shot of each being adjustment checks, The biggest group was .47"



I have been playing with my 7mm mag floating the barrel and stiffening the stock. I wanted to see what difference the bipod made in point of impact so shot a couple of groups. Not 5 because it would take me all night to do that and let the barrel cool down between groups. 

Fired one sighter then a group of three off the bags



then this off the bipod



no shift in POI when going from bags to bipod, I have found that to shoot groups like this with the 7mm mag it is best to allow your cheek to rest heavily on the cheek weld (although you probably want a soft one) I have shot a few groups like this with this rifle now.

Sorry about the pic quality, it seems i over compressed them

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## Spanners

115m over a box and Philipos Tactical Buck-wheat pillow - laying downhill

Gun is a Ruger 253 with the Paddle stock - wont shoot more than 2 rds onto A4 with factory ammo, has 6" of rotten barrel about 3" back from the muzzle.

Spanners Super handloads fixed that  :36 22 1: 
Group works out to be under 0.108  at over 125 yds  :Cool: ... soooo 0.08 MOA??

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## distant stalker

I thought thepoint was to do 5 groups not just post one good group.... :Psmiley:

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## Spanners

> I thought thepoint was to do 5 groups not just post one good group....


If you're referring to mine, that was a load development group, with the other 5 groups all being under 0.4

More a stroke of luck with a POS than the norm  :Grin:

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## distant stalker

> If you're referring to mine, that was a load development group, with the other 5 groups all being under 0.4
> 
> More a stroke of luck with a POS than the norm


 :Grin:  not yours on its own, everybody seems to be doing 1-2 group tests and posting them which is the complete opposite if what Gimp was talking about at the start of the thread

Tussock - I found the cheek resting heavy had most noticeable results in rifles with higher recoil, it seems to help make the recoil more uniform. Dont know the exact science but it works and is on its own makes a huge difference in shooting consistency

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## redbang

I have a strong feeling that the harder cheek weld is probably promoting better follow  through, which makes a big difference to accuracy and consistency. I see a lot of shooters who seem to be in a big hurry to get the rifle off the shoulder and the next round chambered before the bullets hit the target ( figuratively speaking that is ).

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## Dead is better

> The magazines shoot 3-shot groups because it makes the rifles that they are trying to sell look better.


Regular barrels are thinner and heat up faster. The forth and 5th shot are more likely to be fliers than with a heavy varmint barrel. Thats why the tikka sporter is guaranteed to shoot 5 shots inside of 1 MOA at 100y instead of the 3 with a regular T3. I'm a recent convert over from competition Air rifling - the sporter is my first firearm, though 16 years ago i was in the Infantry. I've only put 40 rounds through it in total and you can see it has potential. It is still set with a heavy trigger too. I slapped a Falcon Menace 4-14 scope on it with Burris Zee rings. All very much basic extras you'll all agree. 
Thats std Federal black tips on the left and Lapua in the middle and right (still managed to flick one somehow). Once i use up my 200 shiny Lapua factory loads and begin handloading I'll see if i can meet this 5 group 5 shot MOA test. Do i get a medal if i pass lol? or at least a discount coupon? I reckon all these 'sub MOA' rifles are exactly that, BUT... i'm personally only impressed if you do it prone or sitting. I'd be gob smacked if you did it offhand!!!


I'm still getting used to the rifle but i'm sure i could do much better with the Feds - i just ran out of them.

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## MEB

Why is it cool to shoot 5 little holes close together not that close to where your aiming?

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## leathel

> Why is it cool to shoot 5 little holes close together not that close to where your aiming?




you check the groups... the one that groups best then gets zeroed, every diffierent load will have a different POI so no point zeroing each load to shoot bulls, once sighted in its a waiste of ammo to check the group again...unless you want to prove something  :Wink:

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## MEB

So it's just to prove that your rifle shoots consistently, nothing actually to do with the shooter, or hunting. Kind of understand but don't see the fun in it myself.

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## el borracho

I was over at Barnard Pecision seeing my mate Steve and getting some stuff sorted when I saw his flash looking 10 /22 .Steve started telling me it was pretty accurate -now semi autos and accuracy sometimes leaves a bit to be desired but he assured me this thing could drill 1 hole -yes thats right 1 hole .A little later I asked him from how far did he drill these single hole groups -he said 10 yards  :Thumbsup: 
Get a fck job lol

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## leathel

> So it's just to prove that your rifle shoots consistently, nothing actually to do with the shooter, or hunting. Kind of understand but don't see the fun in it myself.


Working up a load that suits your rifle and being able to shoot a group sub .5" isn't as easy as it sounds, You and your gear have to do their bit... but once you have it sorted it gives you confidence in your gear, then its up to you the shooter to do your part. Once I have the rifle sorted the practice I do is free standing at 250mm gongs at 100-200-300... well 300 I use a larger gong and that gives you hunting practice  
Oh and most of my groups are shot off bipod in a way that can be done in the feild so its all practice and getting to know your rilfe

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## MEB

> Working up a load that suits your rifle and being able to shoot a group sub .5" isn't as easy as it sounds, You and your gear have to do their bit... but once you have it sorted it gives you confidence in your gear, then its up to you the shooter to do your part. Once I have the rifle sorted the practice I do is free standing at 250mm gongs at 100-200-300... well 300 I use a larger gong and that gives you hunting practice  
> Oh and most of my groups are shot off bipod in a way that can be done in the feild so its all practice and getting to know your rilfe


It seems to me that you guys who do this mostly have had a fair amount of time with rifles, hunting etc. I didn't get the group thing no where near the centre- that baffled me a tad. For me to go somewhere where I have access to 100 - 300m for target practise is the farm I shoot. And If I'm going there with my gun I'd rather shoot something for the pot - because I am still new to this hunting. But I am having a bit of fun with my .22 Anshutz and targets up the forestry on a Sunday arvo. If I could afford rounds for my centrefire I would practise with that a lot more. Currently all my rifles outshoot me.

I didn't mean to sound like I thought that pin hole accurate shooting you lot get up to was easy - far from it. I wish I had the time, money and skill to achieve that. :Cool:

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## gadgetman

> MOA off hand would be an interesting (and for me, close to impossible) challenge.
> 
> Heavy barrels dont heat up slower. The walk less as they heat. As each round adds the same amount of heat, regardless of which barrel its fired in, it would be fairer to say thin walled barrels cool down faster.


Umm. Where shall we start.

Assume the firing of a shot imparts energy to the barrel, and each shot imparts roughly the same energy (over simplified I know but a reasonable approximation). The steel has a certain heat capacity and we'll also assume that it same material is used in both a skinny hunting barrel and a heavy target barrel. The mass of the target barrel will be greater so the average temperature rise in the heavier barrel will be less per shot. Also the heat will travel reasonably quickly through the metal (being a good conductor) and the dissipation of heat will therefore be more dependent on the interface with the atmosphere, and the rate will normally be expressed as an amount of energy (ie speed) per given AREA per measure of temperature difference. Since the heavy barrel is wider it will have a greater surface area and hence dissipate the heat quicker, certainly to start with the hotter skinny barrel will loose energy faster, but the heavier barrel will always be a lower temperature.

Yes doing engineering I lived and breathed thermodynamics for months.

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## Dead is better

> So it's just to prove that your rifle shoots consistently, nothing actually to do with the shooter, or hunting. Kind of understand but don't see the fun in it myself.


Unless the rifle has a defect i'd say its more a case of the shooters personal skill (hence the fun). It goes to the core of marksmanship too. Being able to hit the same point everytime as opposed to the other guy. But you're kinda right - there's the other side which requires you to be able to hit random distances with one single shot. Also very hard to do. Personally i'm yet to find a boring sport involving firearms. Its all good to me

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## jakewire

Being able to hit at random distances with a single shot is very, very difficult, especially as those distances increase in randomness.[ if that is a word]
I have seen esteemed members of this fine establishment miss first shots at under 300yrds with rifle and scopes combinations that will shoot 5 shots under an inch at 100.I have also seen these same guys take first shot kills out to 500.
To me, shooting good groups is basic, it must be done at a nominated range, mostly at 100yrds, to enable the shooter to have confidence in his/her ability and the ability of the  rifle. Confidence in your rifle and your own ability, is to me at least 80% of the equation.
The harder 20% is reading the wind on longer shots.

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## Homer

G'Day Fella's,

Here is a 5 group shot with my .22-250AI.


I'm not sure what the rifle is capable of shooting, as it would need a better BR shooter than me, to do it!

Doh!
Homer

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## Kiwishooter

Gimp posted a challenge and so far in this post I've seen a few good groups but not 5 good groups, I have attached 6 targets all are 5 shot groups, 5 were shot at 100yds and 1 was shot at 200yds. All groups were measured independantly, all of the groups were shot outside with the wind doing what it does with bullets. Conditions were switchy and gusty.

 

 

 

So 0.192" + 0.242 + 0.211 +0.222 + 0.193" = 1.060" divide by 5 = 0.212" 
0.396" divided by 2 (to get the 100 yd measurement) = 0.198"

1.060 + 0.198 = 1.258 divide by 6 (to get the aggregate of the 6 groups) = 0.2097"

Can this rifle do this all the time YES if I feed it the ammo it likes and I do MY part........the limiting factor is can "I" do this all the time "NO".......Kiwi

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## Kiwishooter

> G'Day Fella's,
> 
> Here is a 5 group shot with my .22-250AI.
> Attachment 1448
> 
> I'm not sure what the rifle is capable of shooting, as it would need a better BR shooter than me, to do it!
> 
> Doh!
> Homer


What range do you shoot on in Canberra? Kiwi

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## veitnamcam

Impressive :Thumbsup:  Rifle/ load details?

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## R93

> G'Day Fella's,
> 
> Here is a 5 group shot with my .22-250AI.
> Attachment 1448
> 
> 
> Doh!
> Homer


I'm not sure what the rifle is capable of shooting, as it would need a better BR shooter than me, to do it!

It seems to be plenty good enough Homer. Its a hunting rig? If so and its consistent it wont need to be any better. Nice.

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## leathel

an example of the shooter not doing his part with my light rifle in 7mmSAUM.... Didn't let the rifle cool enough between shots, fluffing the odd one including one shot at the wrong target  :Zomg:  

3 shot groups are easy but with a light barrel and warm gun and starting to snatch the trigger (light rifle, no break and 180's doing 2700+ recoil is getting up there a little ) those last to shots quite often stuff things up. Recoil flinch is defintly part of it and I need to do more with the 243AI again to stop snatching at the trigger...no chance of whatching the impact with the 7mm  :Psmiley: 

 I should have taken more rounds for the other rifles I had there to do some free standing shots between shots with the 7mm so it let it cool me...to impatient...

And I will sort a break one day

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## Terminator

> Gimp posted a challenge and so far in this post I've seen a few good groups but not 5 good groups, I have attached 6 targets all are 5 shot groups, 5 were shot at 100yds and 1 was shot at 200yds. All groups were measured independantly, all of the groups were shot outside with the wind doing what it does with bullets. Conditions were switchy and gusty.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> So 0.192" + 0.242 + 0.211 +0.222 + 0.193" = 1.060" divide by 5 = 0.212" 
> ...



Very nice shooting were the targets in question shot in competition with a target rifle?

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## R93

> an example of the shooter not doing his part with my light rifle in 7mmSAUM.... Didn't let the rifle cool enough between shots, fluffing the odd one including one shot at the wrong target  
> 
> 3 shot groups are easy but with a light barrel and warm gun and starting to snatch the trigger (light rifle, no break and 180's doing 2700+ recoil is getting up there a little ) those last to shots quite often stuff things up. Recoil flinch is defintly part of it and I need to do more with the 243AI again to stop snatching at the trigger...no chance of whatching the impact with the 7mm 
> 
>  I should have taken more rounds for the other rifles I had there to do some free standing shots between shots with the 7mm so it let it cool me...to impatient...
> 
> And I will sort a break one day


Still, it is easy to see the rifle is a straight shooter taking all the factors you have mentioned into account. What do lighter projectiles shoot like?

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## leathel

> Still, it is easy to see the rifle is a straight shooter taking all the factors you have mentioned into account. What do lighter projectiles shoot like?


The 140 VLD's and AB's shoot very very well just run out of puff at 700 and more importantly hard to sort windage in the valleys we shoot, Mostly 600-700 across so the 180VLD is the ticket. It doesn't seam to like the 160AB and 162, Just can't get reliable groups with them ?????

 Never shoot more than 3 shot quick lots in the feild anyway and in the field flinch/ recoil is less of an issue. Those groups were the last for the day so allready had 25 rounds of 160's at 3K which kick just as hard so hense the snatching at the trigger  :Psmiley:  Looking at getting some Barnes 140's for bush but the mag length 180VLD still shot pretty good so will try that on animals first  :Have A Nice Day:

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## R93

> The 140 VLD's and AB's shoot very very well just run out of puff at 700 and more importantly hard to sort windage in the valleys we shoot, Mostly 600-700 across so the 180VLD is the ticket. It doesn't seam to like the 160AB and 162, Just can't get reliable groups with them ?????
> 
>  Never shoot more than 3 shot quick lots in the feild anyway and in the field flinch/ recoil is less of an issue. Those groups were the last for the day so allready had 25 rounds of 160's at 3K which kick just as hard so hense the snatching at the trigger  Looking at getting some Barnes 140's for bush but the mag length 180VLD still shot pretty good so will try that on animals first


I have a .223 that wont shoot 60-62 gr pills but shoots everthing either side. Annoying.
Where do the lighter pills lose it leathal, wind, stability or your just not happy with them.
Just reread your post properly. Gotya. I use 130's in my 6.5 and it is around the same, about 700 it loses it in energy. But I still in fair/good conditions push it further on targets. I like trying to nut out decieving winds. just dont like wasting the ammo it sometimes takes doing it

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## leathel

> I have a .223 that wont shoot 60-62 gr pills but shoots everthing either side. Annoying.
> Where do the lighter pills lose it leathal, wind, stability or your just not happy with them.


Lighter pills, the 140VLD has blown up to close (muliple exit holes even on goats) ...and the AB has penciled out further. Wind and lack of energy is the main reason I dropped them, the AB I would keep for a bush load if the POI was the same as the 180VLD but its not and I dont want to have to dial back to a different zero for the bush load. Will try the POI for the barnes but the 180VLD should be OK still up close.. I hope...

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## sneeze

sing out if you want some 140 ttsx to try, can spare a few  or a box if you need.

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## Kiwishooter

> an example of the shooter not doing his part with my light rifle in 7mmSAUM.... Didn't let the rifle cool enough between shots, fluffing the odd one including one shot at the wrong target  
> 
> 3 shot groups are easy but with a light barrel and warm gun and starting to snatch the trigger (light rifle, no break and 180's doing 2700+ recoil is getting up there a little ) those last to shots quite often stuff things up. Recoil flinch is defintly part of it and I need to do more with the 243AI again to stop snatching at the trigger...no chance of whatching the impact with the 7mm 
> 
>  I should have taken more rounds for the other rifles I had there to do some free standing shots between shots with the 7mm so it let it cool me...to impatient...
> 
> And I will sort a break one day


The groups look good, what direction was the wind blowing?? And in which order did you shoot the groups??......Kiwi

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## Kiwishooter

Terminator, yes those groups were shot in competition with a target rifle, were the rest of the groups as good as those "no" finished with a 0.29 agg for 15 x 5 shot groups at 100yds and 15 x 5 shot groups at 200yds, making a total of 30 x 5 shot groups. 
I have several "hunting rifles" that are occasionally able to shoot groups like those pictured but even they can't shoot aggregates as good as my target rifles.

Taking into account the shooting positition and the rifle used for competition and what is able to achieve, do I thing a shooter with a hunting rifle shooting off a bipod or even a bench and rest is capable of shooting 0.25moa consistantly "no" how about 0.5moa my answer to that is "show me" 

veitnamcam was that question directed at me?? If it was rifle is a Bat, Kreiger barrel, 6PPC and enough 133 to almost fill the case, 68gr bullet travelling at around 3450fps.........would this load be safe in a Sako 6PPC most likely not so I won't list the actual powder load.

Kiwi

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## veitnamcam

Yea cheers was  just wondering if it was a custom or a factory

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## Terminator

> Terminator, yes those groups were shot in competition with a target rifle, were the rest of the groups as good as those "no" finished with a 0.29 agg for 15 x 5 shot groups at 100yds and 15 x 5 shot groups at 200yds, making a total of 30 x 5 shot groups. 
> I have several "hunting rifles" that are occasionally able to shoot groups like those pictured but even they can't shoot aggregates as good as my target rifles.
> 
> Taking into account the shooting positition and the rifle used for competition and what is able to achieve, do I thing a shooter with a hunting rifle shooting off a bipod or even a bench and rest is capable of shooting 0.25moa consistantly "no" how about 0.5moa my answer to that is "show me" 
> 
> veitnamcam was that question directed at me?? If it was rifle is a Bat, Kreiger barrel, 6PPC and enough 133 to almost fill the case, 68gr bullet travelling at around 3450fps.........would this load be safe in a Sako 6PPC most likely not so I won't list the actual powder load.
> 
> Kiwi



Thank you for your honest answer it's great to see some one lay all there cards on the table in black and white about what to expect on the rang with a target rifle and in the field with hunting rifle, I think it answers most question asked here.

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## leathel

> The groups look good, what direction was the wind blowing?? And in which order did you shoot the groups??......Kiwi


very little wind, center first with a mag box length, Rifle was shooting high and right with the 162 amax and Munster Jnr was sighting his 308 in and need help hense the wrong target shot after being distracted in the first group...then top two which were at two different seating depths then the lower left, Lower left was with Retumbo as I am nearly out of 2225 so I will have to tweek the load a little by the looks but I will load the remander of what I have in 2225 to the top right setup as I know I pulled number five on that. I caught myself shutting my eyes while snatching the trigger on a couple of the later shots in the groups. More time needed on rifles like my 243AI as I have not shot much of late and that is a pleasure to shoot with the suppressor on and is just as accurate and the Rum that is loud but doesnt kick so between the two the flinch gets sorted pretty quick  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Kiwishooter

> very little wind, center first with a mag box length, Rifle was shooting high and right with the 162 amax and Munster Jnr was sighting his 308 in and need help hense the wrong target shot after being distracted in the first group...then top two which were at two different seating depths then the lower left, Lower left was with Retumbo as I am nearly out of 2225 so I will have to tweek the load a little by the looks but I will load the remander of what I have in 2225 to the top right setup as I know I pulled number five on that. I caught myself shutting my eyes while snatching the trigger on a couple of the later shots in the groups. More time needed on rifles like my 243AI as I have not shot much of late and that is a pleasure to shoot with the suppressor on and is just as accurate and the Rum that is loud but doesnt kick so between the two the flinch gets sorted pretty quick


I like the look of your groups, but my thoughts on the ones out to the left and right is more likely wind Do you use and wind flags when you are shooting? Any variation in wind will alter the impact point of a projectile. I've shot the rifle and others in conditions that don't  move windflags much at all and ended up with groups 3 times the size of the ones I posted.
Before I started competition shooting I never used windflags and spent quite a bit of time trying to get small groups and find out why the good load I found last trip to the range didn't shoot as well this time.....very frustrating. After taking up competition shooting it finally dawned on me how much the wind affects a projectile, now I'd never go to the range without wind flags.............even a simple ribbon tied to a stick placed at 20 40 and 60 yds is better than nothing.........Kiwi

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## Kiwishooter

> This was a .308 I used to own which I went mad and sold and regret! Typically shot inside half MOA and occasionally when I played my part would do this:


That's a nice group, but how did you measure it?? The only reason I ask is that the group is obviously just over 2 bullet widths from top to bottom.........Kiwi

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## veitnamcam

> That's a nice group, but how did you measure it?? The only reason I ask is that the group is obviously just over 2 bullet widths from top to bottom.........Kiwi


Spotting

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## Bagheera

I've been intrigued by this thread since it first appeared 3 years ago.
So far, after 7000 views and 125 replies, 5 people have posted 5x5shot groups:
Gimp
Norway
Claw
Leathel (twice)
Kiwishooter (but on 5 different targets)

No doubt it's tedious to truly compare accuracy because you do have to shoot 5x5 with each variation of ammo / technique etc.  Who would do it just to escape Gimp's wet fish ?

Yesterday, I had a few things to check and wanted to set myself a new benchmark now the gun has shot about 1500 rounds and I'm getting to know it.

This was at 100m and the grid is 1cm.  All metric here.  I calculated a MOA is 29mm at 100m (well got it from Wikipedia actually).  You'll have to take my word for it they were all shot back to back with no omissions.  I didn't have a big enough sheet of paper to fit 5 targets on.

Target 1


Target 2


Target 3


Target 4


Now I have to confess I only had enough rounds left to fire a 3 shot group to finish. ..

Target 5
200m


So, of course this isn't sub 0.1 mRad shooting.  Ha Ha.  Most of the 5 shot groups contained several sets of 3 that would go under MOA and several under 0.5 so 3 shots is not impressive.

Measurements


This is shooting with my hunting rifle, a Sako 85 with S&B PMII 3-12 and A-Tec CTM4 suppressor in 7mm08 with Norma brass, Fed 210, AR2208 and Nosler BT 140gr.  The factory ammo is also Norma with 140gr BT.

In the end, I've checked that point of impact and grouping is similar using a sandbag at the bench or prone and with a bipod and with the sling looped over the barrel instead of a swivel on the stock.  It also holds zero within the limits of my shooting and is stable over 50 shots without cleaning and with new brass or cases loaded 14 times.  Factory ammo has not shot quite as well as my handloads on several comparison tests.  With my standard hand load its close to "MOA" which doesn't sound that exciting but is good enough for the hunting and a bit of field target shooting.

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## gimp

Annealing your brass over those 14 firings?

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## Bagheera

No, I haven't at all.
Do yo think that would help ?
I'm thinking of sending them off to someone to get it done.

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## gimp

I've not got enough collected data to say for sure either way, but I noticed problems with my .243 cases approaching 10 firings per, fliers and erratic speeds etc, I think it would help, intending to anneal brass every couple of firings now - but I keep changing rifles and have 450 6.5x47 cases and 600 or so 6.5x55 cases so it hasn't come up yet

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## veitnamcam

Here is a 3 shot group at 107y and a 10shot group at 217y 
position had to be rebuilt for every shot as I had to use a cleaning rod to remove spent brass due to a rifle issue.

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...munition-8640/

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## NZVarminter

here is a seating test I did recently with my 20BR

[/URL]

100m, 9*3 shot groups, nothing over 0.9" (if you ignore my pulled shot).

Might try a 5x5 next time at range

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## 6x47

Just discovered this thread.

Here's the four five-shot groups I shot about 6 months ago with my son's FTR rifle which we'd just rebarrelled.
The groups were shot in "reverse order", ie bottom right first.
Shame I stuffed up the final shot on the top left one..  :Pissed Off:

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## veitnamcam

Interesting to note the POI shift between groups (nice small tidy groups show it up well :Thumbsup: ) 

Is this purely from changing position and hold slightly to switch targets or is there another reason do you think?

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## ebf

> Largely a lot of the rifles that people talk about that shoot xxx.xx" or xx mm, I suspect it's good luck more so than good management...


+100, hence the 5x5 - just a wee bit harder to get that right than the odd (lucky) super group  :Grin:

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## 6x47

> Interesting to note the POI shift between groups (nice small tidy groups show it up well) 
> 
> Is this purely from changing position and hold slightly to switch targets or is there another reason do you think?



That's a good question- it's gotta be a hold/position thing as the scope wasn't adjusted. I do recall really fighting position as the tube I was shooting down didn't allow me to get a proper setup on the rear bag rider.

The grid is at most 1/2" so the change is very little.
Remember the load is different bottom and top

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## Kscott

> +100, hence the 5x5 - just a wee bit harder to get that right than the odd (lucky) super group


But I shoot perfect 1 hole groups all day long  :Thumbsup:

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## PERRISCICABA

I don't know yet where you found the POI change. If you commenting about the Center diamond group you may observe that the diamond don't align with the top Center one, it is about 1/2" offset to the left.
In my opinion it is a very nice shooting with great reloading work.





> Just discovered this thread.
> 
> Here's the four five-shot groups I shot about 6 months ago with my son's FTR rifle which we'd just rebarrelled.
> The groups were shot in "reverse order", ie bottom right first.
> Shame I stuffed up the final shot on the top left one..

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## MattyP

Here's mine with my 308 and factory ammo. Was either the first or 2nd group I shot with it and hadn't zeroed it. Guy in the shop was pretty close with the boresight, haha. Have another somewhere with a blotted out bullseye, but I normally have it sighted 1.5" or 2" high at 100m.

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## Maca49

Ebf should be all over this, I'd post my BP express but only get one hole at 100metres so believe the next four just followed? :Thumbsup:

----------


## nicks_tricks

Out of interest, are these small groups being shot from a bag and the stock in a "bag" of some sort also? Im so new to shooting that I don't know how its all done. I would have thought shooting from a bag would be to easy?

----------


## MattyP

> Out of interest, are these small groups being shot from a bag and the stock in a "bag" of some sort also? Im so new to shooting that I don't know how its all done. I would have thought shooting from a bag would be to easy?


Most of them will be, yes. The aim when zeroing a rifle how you want (or testing loads) is to take the shooter out of it as much as possible. You want to see how that particular rifle with that particular ammo shoots.

You can't tell bugger all if you along and offhand shoot for example, because your point of impact will change every single shot, and there could be a thousand reasons why.

In saying that, I have found my ammo of choice (factory, I don't reload) so when I go to the range now I normally shoot off my bipod only, as that's what I need to practice. Need to practice offhand at some stage too but it seems to be frowned upon at ranges haha.

Hope that answers your question.

----------


## nicks_tricks

> Most of them will be, yes. The aim when zeroing a rifle how you want (or testing loads) is to take the shooter out of it as much as possible. You want to see how that particular rifle with that particular ammo shoots.
> 
> You can't tell bugger all if you along and offhand shoot for example, because your point of impact will change every single shot, and there could be a thousand reasons why.
> 
> In saying that, I have found my ammo of choice (factory, I don't reload) so when I go to the range now I normally shoot off my bipod only, as that's what I need to practice. Need to practice offhand at some stage too but it seems to be frowned upon at ranges haha.
> 
> Hope that answers your question.


Thanks for clearing that up. Now I don't feel like such a bad shot and it explains why the groupings are so good in this thread. 

Yesterday I shot in my barrel and managed to get some great groupings from the bipod, I have no doubt it would do 5 groups of 5 shots well under 1 MOA with it sitting on bags etc. Happy with my new machine!

----------


## MattyP

A bipod is almost as good as a proper shooting rest in my experience, but a bag or some sort of support at the butt does make a bit of difference over just the old fist underneath. Either way sounds like it shoots good enough to kill stuff.

----------


## Maca49

> Out of interest, are these small groups being shot from a bag and the stock in a "bag" of some sort also? Im so new to shooting that I don't know how its all done. I would have thought shooting from a bag would be to easy?


most of my shooting is offhand and usually snap shooting from years of hunting small game. If I muck about taking the off hand shot it will get worse! Shot a 50 metre target about 200 dia for a 44/50 using my 45/70 BP trapdoor off hand at the last shoot all snap shots, I not complain. Shooting Rushy win mag? The other day over 800 metres off bag rest I was consistent missing with every shot I took, I blamed the rifle!

----------


## veitnamcam

It is a different skill and IMHO the most important as a hunter to be able to shoot quickly and accurately off hand.

----------


## Maca49

Shooting of the bipod at longer distances can be tricky, I tend to pull the rifle back into me to load the bipod firm. Once again it will be a quick shot, nothing worse than waiting and waiting for some wacker to pull the trigger, indoor shooting over twenty metres, God I could make a cup of tea between some guys shots!

----------


## 6x47

If you really want to eliminate most of the human error, there is no substitute for a solid pedestal front rest and a rear bag. Bipods can work but technique is very important- the way you "load" them can have a great effect on elevation. 

This is my son's partner (no, she's not available..) shooting with a joystick front rest. 



You don't have to pinch the rear bag to get the final aim. Even with this rock solid setup, technique is still very important. Variable shoulder pressure / position, cheek pressure and trigger technique all affect where the shot goes

----------


## ebf

@gimp

Not 5x5, but a slight variation on your accuracy challenge.

My target from this weekend's North Island 300m champs in Rotorua. The red circles contain 2 shots each. The yellow sticker is a shot indicator from one of my other targets, it was "retired" after getting 4 hits.

X ring is 50mm, 10-ring is 100mm (8mm inward gauging used)

The group measures 2.598 inch / 66mm, I think that works out to a .75 MOA 10-shot group...  :Grin: 



go at it boys, see what you can do

----------


## shooternz

I was trying to find my bragging targets from the same shoot a few years ago but they got miss layed in my move, my overall group may have been larger  due to flyers the scores were 99.7 and 99.9 just have to miss a wind change and it costs you big time, great shooting ebf keep it up I hope to get back into F class next year, I just wish that the Rotorua shoot was at a warmer time of year, Robert

----------


## ebf

Yeah, pretty chilly working in the butts early in the morning that's for sure  :Grin: 

Tricky range to shoot at, like you say, wind swirls a bit, and the flags are below the flight line, so easy to miss a shift.

You are more than welcome to come join us, the field was pretty evenly split between ISSF, TR-Open, FTR and F-Open. The 300m group has been letting FTR shoot with them for a couple of years, and this was the first time we had FO entries, the boys had a good run on Sun morning with 599 and 598 scores !

----------


## scoped

hows the savage go at that range ebf?

----------


## ebf

Dunno M, still trying to find a projectile powder combination that goes at a speed I like...

One of the open guys this weekend was shooting a 6.5x47, I'm starting to think I might have to convert the savage to a creedmoor for LR gongs  :Zomg:

----------


## Micky Duck

my 7.62x39mm when our 14yr old son uses it with 4x scope goes 2-3" groups at 100
that's all it needs as 150 is realistic max range for deer etc.
have target here but not worth posting it
horses for courses ...

----------


## Breyt

100m and 300m groups

----------


## deer243

Heres my latest effort at the range. just on bag at front with a stiff crosswind at 100m.   Chaterarms fieldking 243, factory FED Powershok 100gr.  Group to right is .056 and group to left is .75, cant complain with the 3-9-40 elite and my shooting lol


Top shot is my girlfriends first shot ever at 100m , not bad lol  NB Adjustment made to left from first group

----------


## xring

My Vartarg when I was developing loads. 100m 5 shots each target. Started top left corner of the target.

----------


## Danny

Fuck me. That's some dead eyes and dicks there

----------


## 257weatherby

> Yeah, pretty chilly working in the butts early in the morning that's for sure 
> 
> Tricky range to shoot at, like you say, wind swirls a bit, and the flags are below the flight line, so easy to miss a shift.
> 
> You are more than welcome to come join us, the field was pretty evenly split between ISSF, TR-Open, FTR and F-Open. The 300m group has been letting FTR shoot with them for a couple of years, and this was the first time we had FO entries, the boys had a good run on Sun morning with 599 and 598 scores !


Umm, dumb question time, never shot in any competition, but allways practised at the ranges I expect to be able to competently put down game, my current favourite rifle, 2506 Rem, (25" Trueflite barrel, trued 700 Rem) will shoot inch groups at 300m and will still do it in a stiff crosswind if I judge it right, would that get me laughed out of a 300m competition if I rocked up with a hunting rifle?, had kind of figured that you had to have tacticool rig and one ragged hole out to 300 would be the norm, but maybe not?

----------


## gimp

You'd probably win if you showed up and averaged 1 inch groups at 300 meters, but it won't happen. You're falling victim to the same thing this thread was sort of about, and the same thing that allthe people posting a single good group in here are also.

----------


## Frosty

> Umm, dumb question time, never shot in any competition, but allways practised at the ranges I expect to be able to competently put down game, my current favourite rifle, 2506 Rem, (25" Trueflite barrel, trued 700 Rem) will shoot inch groups at 300m and will still do it in a stiff crosswind if I judge it right, would that get me laughed out of a 300m competition if I rocked up with a hunting rifle?, had kind of figured that you had to have tacticool rig and one ragged hole out to 300 would be the norm, but maybe not?


You might get laughed at for just writing it.

----------


## Danny

I'm fucken happy to punch a 1" hole at 100 with my rifles. This talk with regards to 300m... Gees.

----------


## PERRISCICABA

OK, so i decide to take some of the spider web from my Steel target rifle and the result is the following I don't know if it counts but the condition was 100mts, from the top of the bonnet in my truck without a rear bag as the setup didn't allow me to use it. I think i can "call" it a 1MOA rifle?

----------


## Maca49

Yeah but it's not accurate ?

----------


## gimp

yeah a bit off centre Mac


Also, sorry, but the whole thread is about looking at single groups being missing the point

----------


## 257weatherby

> You'd probably win if you showed up and averaged 1 inch groups at 300 meters, but it won't happen. You're falling victim to the same thing this thread was sort of about, and the same thing that allthe people posting a single good group in here are also.


Been shooting stuff since the mid 70's, seem to have been a victim more times than I can count. I used to shoot litre coke bottles offhand at 200 m for practice, averaged one round for one bottle for years, easy as for you experts I guess, but I was doin that with a .300 Weatherby not a 6.5 with .243 recoil.

It is just possible that there are others that don't shoot competitions, or have several thousand posts in an internet forum, that can shoot to an acceptable standard.

----------


## gimp

The thread, several years ago, was literally about people making claims like:




> will shoot inch groups at 300m



and yet somehow you never see these rifles or shooters at the range or see any proof beyond the cherry-picked single best groups devoid of context which people keep posting in this very thread declaiming the practice, for some reason


It's certainly possible to have a rifle that shoots submoa or 1/3 moa consistently of course, but people need to be honest with themselves

----------


## gimp

> don't ...have several thousand posts in an internet forum



don't worry, you'll get there.

----------


## 7mmsaum

Two barrel brands i consistently get load developments down to and often under .2 moa groups are Kreigers, and Blasers

I have tried to hate blasers but they are freakin accurate

I have a sako 75 in 223 with a 1 in 8 that shoots .2 with nosler BT projectiles but thats more the exception than the norm as usually Sakos can get down to .3 occasionally with the odd one at .25 moa.

The rest of course is up to the fella behind the trigger

----------


## MattyP

Interesting @7mmsaum . How do you find some of the cheaper rifles compared to those figures?

----------


## Jit

Happy with my R8. It's taken a while to get a good load. 168gr Amax .
This is from a fine day on Monday.  The best so far . 200 yards one 3 shot group one 4 and 1 shot from a lighter loads. Oops.

----------


## Jit

My Rem 700 based tactical in 300 win mag wasn't bad either with 208 gr reloads.  Again at 200 yards.
Measured in mm. But frustratingly doesn't do this every day.

----------


## Puffin

I checked a couple of loads at Kaitoke yesterday afternoon in perfect conditions; no wind and overcast. The long range hunting project is shooting well and as usual there is no way I can keep up. Shot prone off the grass with a bipod. One small change of position or slightly less preload and the shots pull out of the group.....damn. Three fouling shots then 10 shots into each.

----------


## 223nut

Those are damn good groups for 10shots!

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## Puffin

Thanks 233nut. 193metres (211 yards), the squares are half MOA. This one here but wears an NXS 5.5-22 now. 
http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...tml#post500862
It didn't help recording velocities on paper between shots and then the RO calling time for checking targets halfway during each group :Sad:

----------


## Cyclops

Finally I'm starting to shoot as well as my rifle can.

A 60.03 @ 800 yards in March and a 60.05 at 300 yards in June. 
Next challenge - do it more often.

Each square on the e-target screen is 1 MOA. 
The 6 ring is about 1 MOA in diameter, the X ring about 1/2 MOA.

----------


## suthy

I was going to go out skiing today but the weather was crap so I'd though I'd this a crack instead.

This is my standard Rem700 Tac in 233 wearing a HD5 5-25 firing factory OSA (Buffalo River) 55gr Blitzking ammo. All fire withen about a half hour so the barrel was pretty hot towards the end.

5x 5 shot group @ 104m. I thought I'd f#@&%d it up with the centre group which was the last one but it snuck in by less than a mm. Not to bad for factory ammo and a factory rifle!!

----------


## veitnamcam

> I was going to go out skiing today but the weather was crap so I'd though I'd this a crack instead.
> 
> This is my standard Rem700 Tac in 233 wearing a HD5 5-25 firing factory OSA (Buffalo River) 55gr Blitzking ammo. All fire withen about a half hour so the barrel was pretty hot towards the end.
> 
> 5x 5 shot group @ 104m. I thought I'd f#@&%d it up with the centre group which was the last one but it snuck in by less than a mm. Not to bad for factory ammo and a factory rifle!!Attachment 72452Attachment 72453Attachment 72454


Not bad for a factory rifle and ammo  :Thumbsup:

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## Dreamer

Gave the THLR test a go the other week. Pleasantly surprised how I went...



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## quentin

With the weather a bit on the rubbish side, I decided to pop out between showers to the 25m range in the back paddock with the CZ455. It's been ages since I put holes in paper with it (normally rabbits and hares). 



Don't think I need to look for different brand of ammo any time soon. 0.6 MOA with hunting ammo.

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## Gibo

> Gave the THLR test a go the other week. Pleasantly surprised how I went...
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Sweet man what was that with? You would have probably nailed the 1/2 moa one there with that shooting. I plan on doing it tomorrow, got the new paper too with the 100m proficiency test on it as well. Be interesting

----------


## Dreamer

> Sweet man what was that with? You would have probably nailed the 1/2 moa one there with that shooting. I plan on doing it tomorrow, got the new paper too with the 100m proficiency test on it as well. Be interesting


Was with the .223 that i've sold  :ORLY:  Yeah I see Thomas has changed it, will have to print some new ones once I'm back on nightshift  :Thumbsup:

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## suthy

Weather is mint this morning so I got the HMR out to shoot some groups. I thought it would go close as it had grouped very well in the past but I'd never put 5x groups down back to back.
Factory rifle and factory CCI 17gr TNT ammo @ 104m.

Not bad for a rimfire aye!

----------


## Danny

> Weather is mint this morning so I got the HMR out to shoot some groups. I thought it would go close as it had grouped very well in the past but I'd never put 5x groups down back to back.
> Factory rifle and factory CCI 17gr TNT ammo @ 104m.
> Attachment 72619Attachment 72620Attachment 72621
> Not bad for a rimfire aye!


Nice mate, what scope are you running on this?
Excellent at that range, I am yet to validate on paper at over 100 but have already tipped over a rabbit with one shot at 179m using a slight holdover (guess).

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## suthy

Yea it's a great wee calibre, I think there would be quite a few factory rifles out there that would be able to do this but as you can see on the target it is effected by wind a lot more than heavier rounds. Only downside to mine is it doesn't like the VMAX as much as it likes the TNT's.

It's just got a vortex diamondback 4-12 bdc on it so nothing flash however it does seem to dial alright although I've never dialed up more than 5.5 MOA with it.

----------


## Gibo

I suck

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## stub

Yeah but at least your shooting isn't to bad

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## Mooseman

Good day aye Gibo Ha Ha

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## Gibo

Prick of a day, i really do need to stay away from any sort of attempted accuracy shooting with a hang over, idiot

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## PERRISCICABA

What shall i call this kind of shooting? does "break the line" count as a hit or miss???



NOTE!!! The first shot at the 1/2 MOA icon i was aiming at the 3/4 MOA, so nothing more fair than keep shooting the 1/2

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## R93

Had a go at this with my .223 today. Called every shot as good but my cross hair covered the the 1/2 MOA marks even on 15x
My bad eyes probably don't help.

I shot it on 10x. Would have been a nice group and would appear my zero was out a fraction but I checked velocity on a 6 rnd group a bit before and all 6 went bang on but around the same height off center.
Dumb game this one


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## PERRISCICABA

[QUOTE=R93;621690]Had a go at this with my .223 today. Called every shot as good but my cross hair covered the the 1/2 MOA marks even on 15x
My bad eyes probably don't help.

I shot it on 10x. Would have been a nice group and would appear my zero was out a fraction but I checked velocity on a 6 rnd group a bit before and all 6 went bang on but around the same height off center.
Dumb game this one



  @R93, it is a "dumb" game but it is fun! It is how we "catch ourselves" doing thing for a "good cause"… I am 100% sure i had 2 big flukes on my shooting… Sometimes "just" a bit of "canting" can change "that" much the POI…
Keep the good work!

Mac

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## Boaraxa

I was pretty keen to give the dumb game a go today until a certain ^^^ smart ass made me look silly , its so much easier shooting deer you no the shot could be a few inches off but hey dead deer , on paper it looks so much worse  :Sick:  as if that wasn't bad enough the said smart ass had to start shooting things 728M away  :Psmiley:

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## R93

[QUOTE=PERRISCICABA;621701]


> Had a go at this with my .223 today. Called every shot as good but my cross hair covered the the 1/2 MOA marks even on 15x
> My bad eyes probably don't help.
> 
> I shot it on 10x. Would have been a nice group and would appear my zero was out a fraction but I checked velocity on a 6 rnd group a bit before and all 6 went bang on but around the same height off center.
> Dumb game this one
> 
> 
> 
>   @R93, it is a "dumb" game but it is fun! It is how we "catch ourselves" doing thing for a "good cause" I am 100% sure i had 2 big flukes on my shooting Sometimes "just" a bit of "canting" can change "that" much the POI
> ...


Good thinking. Most likely a canting issue. I was playing around with some .38 sp loads in my. 357 while the barrel cooled on the .223 after the first group I fired while velocity testing. 

I think I remember lining up with the straight lines on the target which were not level without a second thought. Rookie error. 
I was also shooting off a bench which I rarely do so I was thinking I may have changed my position slightly after the first shot.


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## Gibo

Excuses excuses

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## R93

> Excuses excuses


I will remember that for after the game tonite

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## Gibo

> I will remember that for after the game tonite
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Good, you'll need them

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## Puffin

Offset aside, very nice grouping if you put the shots all together. 

Unlikely to to be canting though isn't it at 100yds when the bullet fall is only 70-80mm.  10-15mm to the left would require the rifle to be rotated by 10 degrees. There must be some other reason for a change in zero, and as you say shooting position is always enough when you're operating down at sub-MOA.

----------


## R93

> Offset aside, very nice grouping if you put the shots all together. 
> 
> Unlikely to to be canting though isn't it at 100yds when the bullet fall is only 70-80mm.  10-15mm to the left would require the rifle to be rotated by 10 degrees. There must be some other reason for a change in zero, and as you say shooting position is always enough when you're operating down at sub-MOA.


Not sure myself to be fair.  I agree and on reflection it would have to be a major cant.
 Just one of those things. All shots felt ok. I called them all as good. Wind was very slight and coming down range into my face and pretty consistent. 

I realigned for each mark. Maybe I didn't do that well enough. I will try shooting it again but not from a bench.






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## ebf

Enjoying the new 10 twist Lilja 3-groover. It looks like a keeper  :Thumbsup:

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## veitnamcam

> Enjoying the new 10 twist Lilja 3-groover. It looks like a keeper 
> 
> Attachment 73637


Oh I bet that one flyer buggs the shit out of your OCD....what do you think may be the cause?
Still very nice BTW

----------


## MSL

> Oh I bet that one flyer buggs the shit out of your OCD....what do you think may be the cause?
> Still very nice BTW


Looks like they're all fliers?

----------


## veitnamcam

> Looks like they're all fliers?


How so?

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## MSL

Flippant comment. I am curious as to why the groups are not centred, where's the aiming point?

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## ebf

VC : the low right ones (B &D) are due to the monkey behind the rifle. E not 100% sure, probably wind - did not correct for wind age during the strings, mainly interested in elevation.

MSL : aim point was the central dot, groups not centered as this was for load dev, not zeroing. I'll zero the rifle once I've settled on a particular load.

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## MSL

Makes sense

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## andyanimal31

> Enjoying the new 10 twist Lilja 3-groover. It looks like a keeper 
> 
> Attachment 73637


very nice ebf!
308?

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## wsm junkie

@ebf are there 5 shots in that group on C?

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## ebf

wsm junkie : Yes, 5 into each letter

andy : correct, FTR rig

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## doinit

No reason at all why you cant head shoot sandflies  with that set up,very nice.

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## R93

Back in the late 80s early 90s I had an issue PH with a ZF84 Khales fixed 6x (post and hair reticle) a TX 1200 barrel that had a bit of use. (It failed the erosion gauge test) Armourers wanted to rebarrel it but it was always on exercise or away from camp when they came looking for it.


Anyway, that old thing would shoot groups like A all day long and the majority were like C with issue F4 ball ammo.

Don't know what happened to it once the AW come in. 

How much more mucking around to get it where you want it ebf? 
What type and weight projectile?

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## Nibblet

guessing 155gr?
Good shooting

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## ebf

Pretty much happy to call it quits with that sheet Dave. Just shoot over multiple days in different temp ranges to confirm consistency.

PM'ed you the projectile details.

You should have buried the PH & TX 1200  :Grin:  still see one of those come up on TM every now and then.

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## wsm junkie

@ebf what is the variable you are testing in those group? powder charge or seating depth?? Or is it more conformation of your end load?

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## Hunt4life

> I suck 
> Attachment 72715


Yeh, but you shot a magpie at 400 yards with an audience Gibo. A bit different to paper targets 


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## R93

> Yeh, but you shot a magpie at 400 yards with an audience Gibo. A bit different to paper targets 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He would have mis dialed his dope. Flinched and the stupid thing flew into the projectile. 
No other possibility accepted.
Or did his missus shoot it?

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## ebf

Wsm junkie : powder charge, looking for low elevation and low sd, see http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/f10/refining-loads-through-velocity-plateaux-36585/]this thread for process

----------


## wsm junkie

> Wsm junkie : powder charge, looking for low elevation and low sd, see http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/f10/refining-loads-through-velocity-plateaux-36585/]this thread for process


Cool, thanks

----------


## Gillie

> Back in the late 80s early 90s I had an issue PH with a ZF84 Khales fixed 6x (post and hair reticle) a TX 1200 barrel that had a bit of use. (It failed the erosion gauge test) Armourers wanted to rebarrel it but it was always on exercise or away from camp when they came looking for it.
> 
> Anyway, that old thing would shoot groups like A all day long and the majority were like C with issue F4 ball ammo.


Malcolm had one that would happily make head shots all day at 600... he shot a 5 shot 2.5" group with it at 600 not long before he got out. Some of those rifles were awesome and he was doing a lot of shooting at the time.

I have some plans to run a old style sniper match at some stage (500 and 600 yards) - Hawkins position, fire on command, sand bag barricades, loop holes, camouflage nets...  :Have A Nice Day:  Would be great to have a few entry classes (service pre-1990, service post-1990, and open class) but I am pretty sure most people will want to just shoot in open class.

----------


## R93

> Malcolm had one that would happily make head shots all day at 600... he shot a 5 shot 2.5" group with it at 600 not long before he got out. Some of those rifles were awesome and he was doing a lot of shooting at the time.
> 
> I have some plans to run a old style sniper match at some stage (500 and 600 yards) - Hawkins position, fire on command, sand bag barricades, loop holes, camouflage nets...  Would be great to have a few entry classes (service pre-1990, service post-1990, and open class) but I am pretty sure most people will want to just shoot in open class.


I am sure Malcolm does as well but I remember the badge shoot to the detail.

I shot a 245 in practice with that PH rifle missed one walking @500. My partner did as well and straight after me. He did it with hot barrel.
Best score with the AW was only 235.



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## Percy Jones

did some load development last weekend so i could mover to 2208. Zeroed on on the top dot then put 4 round into the bottom dot, but pulled the 5th with a bad recoil, then put the 6th into the same hole. 155 Dyers

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## Dreamer

Gave the THLR accuracy challange another go today and was pleasently surprised how well I went. Gave the 1/2 moa a crack. What do you think  @Norway?

----------


## Norway

Spot on, very very steady!  :Cool: 

Assuming a very accurate rifle/ammunition, the shift towards the right COULD be increasing tension in your thumb palm.
No way for me to know, and your accuracy is at a very high level which makes it difficult to say anything from an external point of view.

----------


## Dreamer

> Spot on, very very steady! 
> 
> Assuming a very accurate rifle/ammunition, the shift towards the right COULD be increasing tension in your thumb palm.
> No way for me to know, and your accuracy is at a very high level which makes it difficult to say anything from an external point of view.


Thank you for that! The shift towards the right does show itself out futher more so with this rifle scope combination? Photo is from the same day first 3 shots from the rifle at 360m

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## Dreamer

Gave the THLR Proficiency test a go today. Had 23sec spare and the shot felt good but the proof is in the pudding so to speak...

As @Norway pointed out from the other day "the shift towards the right COULD be increasing tension in your thumb palm" and it appears very apparent from this today I believe. I did this at the end of my shooting, next time I'll use the same piece of paper and shoot it at the start and see how I go.

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## 40mm

> Gave the THLR accuracy challange another go today and was pleasently surprised how well I went. Gave the 1/2 moa a crack. What do you think  @Norway?
> Attachment 88484


Hey @Dreamer where did you find that target?
cheers, Dave

----------


## Dreamer

> Hey @Dreamer where did you find that target?
> cheers, Dave


Took me a bit of looking but found it on THLRs website from memory 


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## 40mm

> Took me a bit of looking but found it on THLR’s website from memory 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


cool, was hoping to side step that part!!! ill have a proper look  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## stevodog

284win last weekend. 308 with the tape on it.
I don't consider myself a good enough shot to continue with load development beyond this point. (Both moderate start loads)

----------


## Percy Jones

0.7MOA group at 600 yards. Load development so only 5 shots, and it was done with a Rem 700

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## PerazziSC3

> 0.7MOA group at 600 yards. Load development so only 5 shots, and it was done with a Rem 700Attachment 88717


More like 0.1moa or are those squares not 1 "?

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## 6x47

Look in the green box...

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## PerazziSC3

> Look in the green box...


Ok yeah I don't target shoot but looks like a 0.7inch group to me

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## Danny

Are those squares 7x7?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## MSL

The squares represent 1moa

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## Percy Jones

> The squares represent 1moa


Correct, the squares are 6 inches and the V bull at 600 is 5 inches across

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## PerazziSC3

Shit that's a big target,  certainly makes groups look impreaively good! I was assuming the "bullet holes" were proportional to an actual bullet.

Good group anyway

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## ebf

> Shit that's a big target,  certainly makes groups look impreaively good! I was assuming the "bullet holes" were proportional to an actual bullet.


It is an electronic representation of a standard mind range fullbore target.

the X (inner ring) is around 0.5 MOA 
the 6/V (second ring) is 1.0 MOA

Try put 10 consecutive shots in the middle while dealing with wind and you may change yout mind about it being a big target  :Psmiley:

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## Percy Jones

> Shit that's a big target,  certainly makes groups look impreaively good! I was assuming the "bullet holes" were proportional to an actual bullet.
> 
> Good group anyway


This is a big target. These squares are 10 inches square, so still 1 MOA. The arrow isnt my shot, the target detected a hit from an F open shooter next to me, but you can work out the group size from the pic which shows you can keep your good accuracy at long distances.

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## Cowboy06

Didnt have any paper ones at 100 on my phone. So hope these will do. 750m 300win mag. The smaller group is 2.5 the other is about 4. The target in the tree was checking zero on a .270 at 425m only 2 shots though.

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## Cowboy06

Just checked my pen. More like 5.5”-6” for the bigger group.

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## Norway

> Hey @<u><a href="https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/member.php?u=512" target="_blank">Dreamer</a></u> where did you find that target?
> cheers, Dave


Download Shooter Error target here https://hf-files-oregon.s3.amazonaws...error%20v3.pdf

Here's some input on shooting the hunting rifles.
https://youtu.be/iLeJ8rRUSXc

It seems to be a neverending roundabout dance removing Shooter Error, new ones pop up all the time when shooting under pressure (time limit - or limited exposure as in hunting) but at least at this stage I am sufficiently aware so it is fast to peel it off again.
https://youtu.be/8aJByIP4CRE

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## Norway

> Gave the THLR Proficiency test a go today. Had 23sec spare and the shot felt good but the proof is in the pudding so to speak...


23 seconds to spare is right about where you should be as it gives you time to take fix any minor hiccups that occur.

Let's count a 40 second time budget backwards:
4 seconds: Effect of shot observed, reloaded and ready (36 sec left)
2 seconds: Decision to shoot, execute trigger pull (34 sec left)
4 seconds: Final aim (30 sec left)
6 seconds: Get windcall on scope (24 seconds left)
10 seconds: Observation of wind, ballistic calculation (14 seconds left)
12 seconds: Settle into position, setup rifle (2 seconds left)
2 seconds: React to "start", move to firing position (0 seconds)

The above is the induvidual workstreams/ tasks. As you see it is an awareness of environment and cutting down on wind observation and getting that on the scope that is the major timesaver (Insert advertisement for THLR Hybrid reticle holds  :Psmiley:  ). 
There's only so much that can be saved setting the rifle up not including getting range, the trigger work pehaps a second and hardly anything on observation/ reloading.

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## johnino

> Gave the THLR accuracy challange another go today and was pleasently surprised how well I went. Gave the 1/2 moa a crack. What do you think  @Norway?
> Attachment 88484


Does anyone have a link to the targets off Norway's video they can throw my way?

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## Larskramer

6.5prc built by greg @100m ( thanks greg!!) 

Creating a load for my .308 browning xbolt.  had 6 loads all around the same group like this @ 100m.

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## Cyclops

My best day from the 2020 Nelson Champs at Westport

3 ranges shot, 300 yards, 700 yards twice. 
Group sizes 0.9, 0.9 1.0 MOA respectively.

It's a good day when you keep all the sighting shots. 
The deleted shot on my 3rd target was a crossfire from another shooter.

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## Woody

The velocities at 700 look very fast. What load?

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## Cyclops

> The velocities at 700 look very fast. What load?


My standard FTR load - Lapua Palma Cases, 45.0 gr 2208 with 185 gr Berger Hybrids. 

Barnard 'P' Action, 32" 1:10 True-Flite barrel.
You get a little more velocity out of the longer barrel.

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## Micky Duck

strokes for folks........bush hobbits dont need interbalistic misiles for sub 50 yard shots

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## Cyclops

> 32"...That is a sexy-long barrel though.


Most target rifles have 30" or 32" barrels 
I can still  make the 8.25 kg weight limit (includes rifle, scope, bipod, rain cover) with the 32".

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## Spitfire

Some great shooting and discussion here.

Perhaps hitting a 1 MOA dot with a single cold bore shot is more relevant to most of us?

To prove consistency, hit it again with a single shot on a different day, or with a completely cold bore in whatever condition you like your bore (fouled, clean of carbon, clean of carbon and copper, whatever).

Lots of very impressive groups, but most aren’t bang on target (load dev accepted).

I’m not being at all critical - I enjoy shooting for small group sizes too.

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## Larskramer

N150, 178g eldx, standard xbolt but chopped to 15inch, trigger spring, dpt magnum supressor. That lying on the dirt with a bipod and a hoodie as a rear bag.

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## Woody

Five shot 1/2 moa group shot today at 200m wth my .308 win shultz and larsen classic dl.

Would have been tighter except for my own slight shakes. Standard jaktmatch bbl. 155hbc @2800 fps. Leupold vx3 4.5-14*40 scope.

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## flock



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## Fisherman

> Some great shooting and discussion here.
> 
> Perhaps hitting a 1 MOA dot with a single cold bore shot is more relevant to most of us?
> 
> To prove consistency, hit it again with a single shot on a different day, or with a completely cold bore in whatever condition you like your bore (fouled, clean of carbon, clean of carbon and copper, whatever).
> 
> Lots of very impressive groups, but most aren’t bang on target (load dev accepted).
> 
> I’m not being at all critical - I enjoy shooting for small group sizes too.


That's how I find my center. I get out maybe once a week and put a couple of cold shots into a target at 600 yards. The accumulated data gives me about 1moa with my 284.
Generally the two shot groups are way tighter than that but elevation variation from night to night pushes it out to moa, but more than happy with that.

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## Taupohunter

3 shot groups test the load and rifle. 5 shot groups test the shooter. Most shooters will struggle to put up a good 5 shot group with a heavy recoiling gun, even suppressed. Its all about shoulder pressure, and any subtle difference will throw a shot out of the group.

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## Fisherman

> 3 shot groups test the load and rifle. 5 shot groups test the shooter. Most shooters will struggle to put up a good 5 shot group with a heavy recoiling gun, even suppressed. Its all about shoulder pressure, and any subtle difference will throw a shot out of the group.


Agree for my shooting anyway, if I had more patience/time it would be single shots...but two with a few minutes wait time keeps the gun cold and keeps my shooting at its sharpest (which isn't all that flash)

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## HILLBILLYHUNTERS

3 shots  5 shots 6 shots . ya have it all wrong unless your target shooting . It's the FIRST shot that counts 
unless your doing control and even then if you can put it in the bull every time first time thats it .

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## Puffin

Not for the Gimp Challenge it ain't sorry. For what is now a forum institution,  it is 5x 5-shot groups, as per the OP - no alterations permitted. Keeps the playing field level. So while posting a single-hole 3-shot group (or multiple 3-shot groups) is fine, and you could've been a contender, you aren't unless you play by the rules. That's why it's the hunting AND shooting forum. Looking forward to the HillBillyHunter's Single-Shot Cold-Bore Challenge though. I'll be in for that.

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## MSL

Boring old tikka Rem mag.
First group at 100yards before zeroing.
Second group at 506y with no allowance for windage.
Plenty good for a hunting rifle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## NewbieZAR

I didn't know of this challenge till a mate told me last night so i dont have any 5 shot group pics, i have a 10 shot i did yesterday just off the bipod, i think i may have messed up the 10th shot as it went high right opening it up to a 1" group. All shot at 100 yards, all one string with no cooling down etc. Rifle is a standard Sauer 100, ammo is 223 fiocci 55gr vmax.


The rifle with the 10 shot lucky 13 mag


10 shots off the bipod.

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## blair993

Its amazing that people still cant or wont read. Read the op's post.

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## ebf

> Its amazing that people still cant or wont read. Read the op's post.


Blair, I don't think the problem is so much with people not being able to read... it is that they cant actually shoot the challenge with "postable" results.  :Psmiley:  :Grin:

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## blair993

lol. yeah maybe. but 5 shot groups dont matter "in the real world" only the first shot.

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## R93

I have got too old to care about tiny groups. Practical accuracy and consistency is where its at for me now. I spend more time ensuring my technique is where it should be than what my rifles can do. Fundamentals are the basis for all types of shooting and if you have them to a high standard, mistakes are less likely.
If I roll my ammo correctly I know my hunting rifles can shoot better than I can, so thats all that interests me these days.

I did get all excited when I first shot my Sig P320 9mm at 25, freestyle, not off a ransom rest.(With a dot) I put 10 rnds into 1.5 inches with 2 separate clusters. I have yet to replicate that even now that I am more familiar with the gun. Therefore a definite fluke. But its safe to say my pistol is now, a 6 MOA gun

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

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## NewbieZAR

Ah yeah just saw you meant to do 5 groups lol, ill have a crack next time im out, you right i didn't read the OP post lol.

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## 300LRH

With the help of OBT. Barnes was the second load I tested and Nosler the 3rd load I tested. Large calibers dont always need to be accurate, but they can be.

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## suthy

Here's some targets from my 22lr endeavors but they are only shot @ 50m if that counts

I've got a fck ton more @ 50m where I've had 1 or 2 fliers spoil it and a handful @ 100m that are pretty close as well

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## Allizdog

Some good shooting guys. Just realized this thread started 8yrs ago. Certainly has longevity.

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## Wingman

Spend the morning working up some new match loads with some new bullets for the desert tech bullpup in 6.5x47 Lapua.
I have only been using the barrel for hunting but decided to get back into a bit of club shooting so need a 1000y target worthy load.
Serious shortage of components out there at the mo so my choice of projectiles was decided by the current availability. 
The Berger 130gr OTM Hybrid VLDs and the new 130gr Sierra Hybrid Match King is showing promise with sub .5 MOA 5 round groups at 100yds but Ill spend the day fine tuning the loads to get it closer to its .2-.3 MOA groups it can achieve with lower BC hunting bullets. 
Might have another crack with the 130gr ELDMs too I tested about a year ago.

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## zimmer

Aha, just about to get my old 6 BR and my 6.5x47L up and running again.

6mm BR hasn't been fired since 2012, the 6.5x47L since 2017.

In 2017 I tried some loads using 2208, 130 gr Bergers. The results weren't great and I lost interest, instead of persevering. 
Normal range load was 130 gr Bergers (pointed) and Reloder powder. 
I still have a reasonable amount of Reloder left but wanted to use 2208 due to it being less temp sensitive.

I used to get cracker groups with the 130 gr Bergers and also 123 gr Scenars. Scenars a bit light though and didn't give me much ballistical advantage over using my 6 BR.

  @Wingman what sort of velocities are you getting?

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## Wingman

Can run up to 2900fps with the 130gr class and RL16 in a 24" Trueflite. Backing them off to about 2750-  2800 tomorrow to test a lower node with 2208. Had a brain fart this morning and used my 123gr load data for the 130gr so the 2208 groups above were way too hot at 2880fps
These Hybrid Bergers are suposed to be less jump sensitive so should find a load pretty quickly tomorrow.


I dragged the 6mm dasher out last weekend for the first time in ages and gave it a run at 1000yds too..

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## Wingman

Well that took longer than I hoped.. got a couple of usable loads. The Berger Hybrid Tactical bullets seemed to want to be on the lands or the groups were plagued with flyers. 

Finished up with this one and a 4fps ES with 3 duplicate readings of 2818fps.  



The Sierra match kings were much easier to tune and run at 2880fps with a higher BC than the Bergers so will probably sway that way once the Bergers are used up.





This has not been a fussy barrel but it definitely seems to favour the 130gr over the 140gr

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## Cyclops

Well this doesn't meet the original poster's requirements - but most of the post in this discussion don't.

Had to go to the range to retest a scope's zero. 
Had some old rounds (loaded 2016 & 2017) for another rifle, same calibre different rifle.
155 gr Lapua Scenars in Lapua Palma cases. 

At 100 yards 10 shots in a 1 inch square. Close enough.

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## Matt2308

Here are 10 - 5 shot groups, stacked on top of each other at 100m...50 rounds through my .223ai whilst forming brass.


I was forming brass and wasnt shooting for accuracy, but it still confirms that the barrel has some potential and doesnt shift zero as it warms up. 
Of course there had to be that 1 bullet that wouldnt conform! 

Here are a couple of 3 shot groups from my 338 Lapua Improved at 200m, this barrel shot pretty well!





And heres another 3 shot group from the same 338, cold bore on a 36 x 36 plate at 2003m just to prove that the last 3 shot groups werent a fluke. 



Ultimately accuracy is subjective and whether a rifle is accurate enough is something only the owner of that rifle can decide on.

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## blair993

@Matt2308 not bad shooting to break the world record. only for the yanks to change the rules.

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## Matt2308

> @Matt2308 not bad shooting to break the world record. only for the yanks to change the rules.


Yeh that was unfortunate. 
But all good, I broke my personal record and now I just have to do it again officially.

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## T.FOYE

> I have got too old to care about tiny groups. Practical accuracy and consistency is where its at for me now. I spend more time ensuring my technique is where it should be than what my rifles can do. Fundamentals are the basis for all types of shooting and if you have them to a high standard, mistakes are less likely.
> If I roll my ammo correctly I know my hunting rifles can shoot better than I can, so thats all that interests me these days.
> 
> I did get all excited when I first shot my Sig P320 9mm at 25, freestyle, not off a ransom rest.(With a dot) I put 10 rnds into 1.5 inches with 2 separate clusters. I have yet to replicate that even now that I am more familiar with the gun. Therefore a definite fluke. But its safe to say my pistol is now, a 6 MOA gun
> 
> Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk


Thats true. Sometimes i get bughole groups but the position on the target isn't where i know the wind should have put it. Meaning i replicated a shitty shooting position a few times... 
A good repeatable technique seems to require constant practice to maintain eh

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## MEB

And now, many years later all I do is shoot at paper or steel targets..

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