# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Media Firearms beat-up continues

## stug

Should the age someone can get a firearms licence be raised? - Opinion - NZ Herald News

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## Beavis

There is absolutely a concerted effort within the media to keep firearm issues (or should I say "issues") at the forefront of public debate. I feel they are clutching at straws now and almost detect a sense of frustration.

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## Rushy

It is interesting that the greater weight of opinion is against them in the responses

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## Flincher

This is like having a boat spring a leak and you decide to regular engine maintenance that you did 2 weeks ago. Completely useless and just keeping preocupided so you don't have to think about the real  problem.

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## Survy

As one great lady has said....

Beauty fades...dumb is forever....
Convert the saying into firearms lingo and you get,...

Raise the age....dumb is forever....

It ain't gonna fix dumb !

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## Friwi

I thought that with the win in the rugby over the week end those idiots would be off our back for a few more weeks....
But no:-(

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## Natatale

This is the same debate that we had in Oz, before some dick decided to kill 36 people with a semi auto 7.62. Soon made everybody realise that military style semi-auto weapons aren't safe in civilian hands, they were made for *War and Killing on mass*.
So while America keeps on having mass shootings and we have people killing each other here, then the media will take every advantage to make headlines. We are so lucky with the gun laws that we have, but I think they are too relaxed and require some overhauling.
Age limiting isn't one that needs changing, semi-auto high powered weapons in un-trained would be a good start.

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## Moutere

> This is the same debate that we had in Oz, before some dick decided to kill 36 people with a semi auto 7.62. Soon made everybody realise that military style semi-auto weapons aren't safe in civilian hands, they were made for *War and Killing on mass*.
> So while America keeps on having mass shootings and we have people killing each other here, then the media will take every advantage to make headlines. We are so lucky with the gun laws that we have, but I think they are too relaxed and require some overhauling.
> Age limiting isn't one that needs changing, semi-auto high powered weapons in un-trained would be a good start.


Australia still has regular shootings, their approach has had fuck all impact on gun crime. Regardless of type of firearm.

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## Beavis

> This is the same debate that we had in Oz, before some dick decided to kill 36 people with a semi auto 7.62. Soon made everybody realise that military style semi-auto weapons aren't safe in civilian hands, they were made for *War and Killing on mass*.
> So while America keeps on having mass shootings and we have people killing each other here, then the media will take every advantage to make headlines. We are so lucky with the gun laws that we have, but I think they are too relaxed and require some overhauling.
> Age limiting isn't one that needs changing, semi-auto high powered weapons in un-trained would be a good start.


So you reckon if we get rid of them, we won't have mass killings, or when we do, the shooter will kill people at a more acceptable rate, with something else?

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## Rushy

I just don't buy into the MSSA's are evil debate.  It only takes one crazy person to point one loaded single shot rifle at an individual and pull the trigger for there to be a tragic loss of life. Now ask yourself, how many times could an accomplished handler do that before being overcome. If the crazy can do it multiple times then you have a mass murder.  MSSA's or firearms of any kind are not the problem.

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## Natatale

> Australia still has regular shootings, their approach has had fuck all impact on gun crime. Regardless of type of firearm.


I'm sorry when was the last mass shooting ?? Did I miss something, I think it's gone a long way to make Oz a lot safer. There will always be shootings, get rid of guns totally, and the they will stab each other, take knives away they will stone each other.
We as humans are bloody dangerous creatures, always have been, and always will be, but limit to what we kill each other with, surely it will help the innocent bystanders from being shot in MASS. !!!

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## Dan88

please define a high powered weapon? .50BMG .600 nitro?
Aussie has more gun crime than nz.

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## Beavis

> I'm sorry when was the last mass shooting ?? Did I miss something, I think it's gone a long way to make Oz a lot safer. There will always be shootings, get rid of guns totally, and the they will stab each other, take knives away they will stone each other.
> We as humans are bloody dangerous creatures, always have been, and always will be, but limit to what we kill each other with, surely it will help the innocent bystanders from being shot in MASS. !!!


When was the last time there was a mass shooting in New Zealand?

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## Natatale

> please define a high powered weapon? .50BMG .600 nitro?
> Aussie has more gun crime than nz.


Yeah and there are a few million more Aussies so compare things in the right perspective, and can you quote me the gun death figures for both countries ???
And tell me what the fuck do you need with a semi auto 7.62, would you use it to stop a charging mob of goats from killing you ???
There are places for these types of weapons and NZ doesn't really need them !!

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## Moutere

> I'm sorry when was the last mass shooting ?? Did I miss something, I think it's gone a long way to make Oz a lot safer. There will always be shootings, get rid of guns totally, and the they will stab each other, take knives away they will stone each other.
> We as humans are bloody dangerous creatures, always have been, and always will be, but limit to what we kill each other with, surely it will help the innocent bystanders from being shot in MASS. !!!


In my experience, I'd say there is an agravated shooting most weeks in Sydney alone.
You have quite a pesimistic view of our sport.

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## Krameranzac

T


> I'm sorry when was the last mass shooting ?? Did I miss something, I think it's gone a long way to make Oz a lot safer. There will always be shootings, get rid of guns totally, and the they will stab each other, take knives away they will stone each other.
> We as humans are bloody dangerous creatures, always have been, and always will be, but limit to what we kill each other with, surely it will help the innocent bystanders from being shot in MASS. !!!


Thank you for wanting to sacrifice other peoples firearms privileges because you feel uncomfortable about semi autos. Thankfully you are the minority. You just stated we are lucky to have the laws we have and you advocate giving them away. Sod having laws anywhere like Aussie. Joe Stalin would find them oppressive.

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## Natatale

> When was the last time there was a mass shooting in New Zealand?


February 1997   6 dead and 4 wounded
December 2001 3 dead
They may not be on the scale of Port Arthur, but still listed as mass killings.

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## Beavis

> Yeah and there are a few million more Aussies so compare things in the right perspective, and can you quote me the gun death figures for both countries ???
> And tell me what the fuck do you need with a semi auto 7.62, would you use it to stop a charging mob of goats from killing you ???
> There are places for these types of weapons and NZ doesn't really need them !!


What do you need with a gun full stop? This is New Zealand. A first world country where normal people can buy meat from the supermarket. You don't need to hunt. What makes you think you should be allowed to own a high powered gun? How do I know you won't try and shoot me with it?

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## dirtyhabit

I don't think these anti fuckwits watch rugby??? Too violent...

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## Beavis

> February 1997   6 dead and 4 wounded
> December 2001 3 dead
> They may not be on the scale of Port Arthur, but still listed as mass killings.


So a semi automatic rifle was used in neither of those incidents, and there have been no "mass" shootings in 14 odd years. Yip ban semi autos, we have a problem.

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## Dan88

Compare Australia
direct comparison of firearm deaths

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## Rushy

February 1997 - Stephen Anderson - history of mental illness.
December 2001 - William Bell - after a night consuming alcohol and drugs.

The firearms are not the problem.

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## Dan88

Stephen Anderson used a single barrel shotgun hardly a "high powered MSSA"

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## Maca49

I guess I'd ban Shotguns cause I can't shoot with one so the just useless to me, I dont have an E cat or a B cat or  a C cat or a Dealers licence so all that shit can go! I don't like brunettes much either so they can go, get the message, it's not what we see as useless to us that's the prob. The real cause are the looneys and the Crims that need sorting, but it's easier to blame something that's easier to control. Knives are far more dangerous than firearms and there's no restrictions really. Now farking stones! I just don't want to think about.

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## Natatale

Hey I'm Ex-Military and love using firearms, but can you tell me where are there military shooting clubs that can train the novice shooters to use semi auto military type weapons?? 
Please get it that military rifles in the hands of civilians without proper training and guidance is a recipe for a mass shooting. May not be today or in a year but it will happen.
If you are a member of a military shooting club and want to go out with your mates and have a shooting comp, then I see that a legitimate reason.
Here is a very real possibility, Person 1 obtains a FAL, just "A" class. He goes and buys a SKS and 500 rounds in gun shop A. 
Fuck that was cheap and easy so he goes into Gun shop B and does the same. He can do this for every gun shop in NZ if he wants. Now he get together some of his not so friendly to our way's mates and you now you have a recipe for disaster to the innocent.

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## stretch

> And tell me what the fuck do you need with a semi auto 7.62, would you use it to stop a charging mob of goats from killing you ???
> There are places for these types of weapons and NZ doesn't really need them !!


Ummm... Weren't you looking for an SKS a while ago? Why the sudden change in attitude?

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...mi-auto-23324/
http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...ng-ammo-22300/
http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...4/index2.html#

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Beavis

@Natatale gotta love them semi auto 7.62's

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## Survy

> Hey I'm Ex-Military and love using firearms, but can you tell me where are there military shooting clubs that can train the novice shooters to use semi auto military type weapons?? 
> Please get it that military rifles in the hands of civilians without proper training and guidance is a recipe for a mass shooting. May not be today or in a year but it will happen.
> If you are a member of a military shooting club and want to go out with your mates and have a shooting comp, then I see that a legitimate reason.
> Here is a very real possibility, Person 1 obtains a FAL, just "A" class. He goes and buys a SKS and 500 rounds in gun shop A. 
> Fuck that was cheap and easy so he goes into Gun shop B and does the same. He can do this for every gun shop in NZ if he wants. Now he get together some of his not so friendly to our way's mates and you now you have a recipe for disaster to the innocent.



I acknowledge that you are trying to make a point, and some concerns, military firearms, civilian hands or not, training or no training...
The outcome would be the same if someone decided to have a bad day with a ruger 10/22.

It's starting to look like the haves and have nots...

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## Natatale

> Ummm... Weren't you looking for an SKS a while ago? Why the sudden change in attitude?
> 
> http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...mi-auto-23324/
> http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...ng-ammo-22300/
> http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...4/index2.html#
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


Hey no sudden change, I have the background and the experience to use one. 
But what I cant believe is that NZ doesn't have a basic fire arms registry, just for starters.
Which just leaves it wide open for mis-use.

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## Dan88

how does a registry stop mis-use? are the crims going to register their guns?

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## stretch

@Natatale, I think you're just pissed about the rugby and trolling us.

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## Friwi

Natatale,that is a bit hypocrite coming from you.
Being an ex army guy does not make you any better to own a mssa or any other gun actually. Look at all the vet from Iraq and Afghanistan who break a fuse starting by the one who shot Chris Kyle.
And I know a few civilians who could give a lesson or two of shooting to some police/ military personnel with their service gun.

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## GravelBen

> Please get it that military rifles in the hands of civilians without proper training and guidance is a recipe for a mass shooting. May not be today or in a year but it will happen.


Paranoid much?

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## Natatale

> how does a registry stop mis-use? are the crims going to register their guns?


I'm sorry is the crim going to have a fucking FAL, get a grip.

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## Moutere

I'm a bit sick of expats spouting on about how shit the law is in the new country in which they reside.
Maybe you'd feel much safer back in Australia?

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## Natatale

Hey I have a right to my say and you have a right to yours, so deal with it !!

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## Natatale

> I'm a bit sick of expats spouting on about how shit the law is in the new country in which they reside.
> Maybe you'd feel much safer back in Australia?


I didn't say it was shit, just that it is relaxed and could do with some fixing. I feel much safer right here thanks !

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## stretch

> And tell me what the fuck do you need with a semi auto 7.62, would you use it to stop a charging mob of goats from killing you ???


That's a really dumb scenario. Hunting is a perfectly legitimate use for a semi-auto 7.62. I'm yet to be charged by a goat, but using my SKS on my last outing, I was able to kill 7 out of a mob of 8. I was limited by A-cat magazine capacity. Guess I should've had 7 in the mag AND one up the spout. That's my kind of mass shooting. Might've been able to get 2/8 with a both action if I were lucky.

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## Friwi

I don't think we need your Australian gun laws experience in this country, we ve already seen that They do not work.

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## Nick-D

> February 1997 - Stephen Anderson - history of mental illness.
> December 2001 - William Bell - after a night consuming alcohol and drugs.
> 
> The firearms are not the problem.


Indeed, the fact does remain that firearms are a tool, and a looney with a firearm is more dangerous than one without. This is somthing that the yanks really dont seem to get.

So you must have an element of control over who recieves the firearms, in a sliding scale for risk level. IMO controling pistol grips and stock tubes are stupid and have no bearing, but controling magazine size does. Putting bans on the look of a weapon,(AR15 vs mini 14 say) is irrelevent and only serves to sooth political pressure, it does nothing to reduce guncrime or the danger of gun crime.
For the most part our laws do a pretty reasonable job, but like everything they aren't perfect. 

I think the licencing could be more practicaly based and the bar could be raised a bit higher. I know people who I wouldnt trust with a toaster and they have a FA licence.
I havnt been public land hunting for very long but have allready seen plenty of dumb shit. A few of the euro countries have seperate hunting licences, this whilst it would be a pain in the arse kinda makes sense to me

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## Dan88

most shootings are not carried out by people with a FAL, and they will be the only ones who register guns. so how does a registry stop mass shootings?
when NZ had a registry pre 1982 it was shown to have never been used to solve a crime.
Aus and the uk have a registry and gun crime has gone up, canada scraped their registry after a few years and after spending millions on it. why would they scrap it if it worked? oh wait it didnt work

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## shift14

> Hey I have a right to my say and you have a right to yours, so deal with it !!


Just edited my weak attempt at sarcasm in reply to your posts.....

I'm getting far more satisfaction watching the RWC for the sixth time.

B

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## Krameranzac

> Hey no sudden change, I have the background and the experience to use one. 
> But what I cant believe is that NZ doesn't have a basic fire arms registry, just for starters.
> Which just leaves it wide open for mis-use.


Really? What did registration get you in Aussie? The ability for your politicians to confiscate all your semis and pumps and later on handguns over 9mm. Now they are looking at lever actions. And you want that shit here? Who put you up to this thread reply? John Howard?

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## Koshogi

> I didn't say it was shit, just that it is relaxed and could do with some fixing. I feel much safer right here thanks !


You feel safer in a country with more "relaxed" gun laws than Australia, yet you want to change them to your "perfect" Australian laws. Right, that makes sense.

Australian gun laws are a joke. New Zealand has a substantially better vetting system. I held a Firearms Licence in two states (one was a territory actually), and was never interviewed or even had a conversation about my suitability for a license during any of application/re application processes in over 15 years. 

Police from New Zealand and Canada both stated before removing the registration in those countries, that no crimes had been solved using them and that they gave a false sense of security to responding Officers.

I can't stand people who move to a country because they don't like the system in their own, and then try and change their new country to emulate the country they left.

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## 300CALMAN

Actually Britan has had a mass shooting since banning semi autos.

He just used a shot gun and .22.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

The English Press said very little about that one. And on average another one will probably happen in the next 5 years.

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## Natatale

> You feel safer in a country with more "relaxed" gun laws than Australia, yet you want to change them to your "perfect" Australian laws. Right, that makes sense.
> 
> Australian gun laws are a joke. New Zealand has a substantially better vetting system. I held a Firearms Licence in two states (one was a territory actually), and was never interviewed or even had a conversation about my suitability for a license during any of application/re application processes in over 15 years. 
> 
> Police from New Zealand and Canada both stated before removing the registration in those countries, that no crimes had been solved using them and that they gave a false sense of security to responding Officers.
> 
> I can't stand people who move to a country because they don't like the system in their own, and then try and change their new country to emulate the country they left.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Who said that I wanted to use Australia's gun laws ???? I just said they need some tightening and suggested a registry. Having semi auto 7.62 readably available to ANY person with a FAL is a recipe for a mass shooting.
I didn't move here because I didn't like the Oz system, I'm here because I have family here, so I have no intentions of crossing the ditch.
Again I have a right to my say and you to yours, but you and everyone but @Nick-D have gone on the defensive about in my eyes a defective FAL system.

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## stretch

I'm on the defensive because you claim Semi-auto 7.62 (and I assume you mean all Semi-auto center fire rifles) should not be available in NZ, and that's bullshit. They are a useful tool.

You ARE entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't magically mean your statements are valid. If you make an outlandish claim, expect to be roasted by the rest of this community.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Moutere

Defensive, certainly.
Your advocating to impact on my sport negatively, without any sound reasoning and based on nothing more than selfish opinion.

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## 300CALMAN

> Who said that I wanted to use Australia's gun laws ???? I just said they need some tightening and suggested a registry. Having semi auto 7.62 readably available to ANY person with a FAL is a recipe for a mass shooting.
> I didn't move here because I didn't like the Oz system, I'm here because I have family here, so I have no intentions of crossing the ditch.
> Again I have a right to my say and you to yours, but you and everyone but @Nick-D have gone on the defensive about in my eyes a defective FAL system.


So your saying you need a 7.62 semi auto to do a mass shooting?? It's part of the Recipe... You might as well just join the Reporters. Reporters blame the firearms also. Why don't they blame bombs for bombings or knives for stabbings.

Actual they make the shooters famous which is what theses loosers want. To become famous which is the "famous" mas murders in OZ and NZ had paper clippings of other mas shootings. The Media sells papers and TV gives them what they want... This is part of a complex problem.

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## Dan88

as a fan of evidence based science and reason I haven't seen any evidence of a defective FAL system

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## Natatale

> I'm on the defensive because you claim Semi-auto 7.62 (and I assume you mean all Semi-auto center fire rifles) should not be available in NZ, and that's bullshit. They are a useful tool.
> 
> You ARE entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't magically mean your statements are valid. If you make an outlandish claim, expect to be roasted by the rest of this community.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


Why is my argument NOT valid ??? And what outlandish claims have I made ?? I said that they shouldn't be available to "un-trained" persons. In an "Ideal world" why do we need them ????

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## Dan88

a valid argument must be backed up by facts otherwise it is just an opinion

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## 300CALMAN

> Why is my argument NOT valid ??? And what outlandish claims have I made ?? I said that they shouldn't be available to "un-trained" persons. In an "Ideal world" why do we need them ????


Why do you need ANY firearm. They are designed to KILL? How about only licensed pest controllers, no one else has the need except the ARMY.

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## Beavis

Curious as to what this training is

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## Natatale

> Defensive, certainly.
> Your advocating to impact on my sport negatively, without any sound reasoning and based on nothing more than selfish opinion.


Do I have the power to change the law's NO so I'm not impacting on your sport.

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## 300CALMAN

Fireworks on sale at range of stores - Business - NZ Herald News

Beat up on fireworks, small distraction for the moment.

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## Moutere

> Do I have the power to change the law's NO so I'm not impacting on your sport.


No, like I said before. Your are advocating for it.

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## Krameranzac

> Why is my argument NOT valid ??? And what outlandish claims have I made ?? I said that they shouldn't be available to "un-trained" persons. In an "Ideal world" why do we need them ????


A classic quote of the anti's. Firearms should only be in the hands of professionally trained people. Personally I didnt need the military to train me how to use a semi auto military rifle competently. Its a very basic machine after all.

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## Dan88

firearms in nz are not designed to kill humans, they are designed to kill animals and shoot targets. the fact that they can kill humans is just another possible use much in the same way that a hammer, knife, machete,  chainsaw or other TOOL could be used to kill a human. 

if a gun is designed to kill people it would not have any features that reduce its effectiveness. so when an M16 has its ability to be fully automatic removed and made in its civilian version ie an AR15 with semi-auto only  and with a limited capacity of 7 rounds it can hardly be its most efficient but still perfectly alright for target shooting or general hunting

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## Natatale

> Fireworks on sale at range of stores - Business - NZ Herald News
> 
> Beat up on fireworks, small distraction for the moment.


Why what did fireworks do ?? Look we can debate about any subject any time over a beer at the pub or over a forum, just don't take it personally  :Have A Nice Day:

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## GravelBen

> And what outlandish claims have I made ??


How about this one...




> Having semi auto 7.62 readably available to ANY person with a FAL is a recipe for a mass shooting.


Sweeping generalisation not supported by available evidence, looks like an outlandish claim to me. It may be your opinion and you're entitled to that, but it will go down better if you don't try to present it as a fact.

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## Natatale

Ok so we have just taken up about 2 hours of our times, what else could you have done instead of arguing with me about my personal opinion ??  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Natatale

> How about this one...
> 
> 
> 
> Sweeping generalisation not supported by available evidence, looks like an outlandish claim to me. It may be your opinion and you're entitled to that, but it will go down better if you don't try to present it as a fact.


Ok sorry lets try it this way "In my opinion, having semi auto 7.62 readably available to ANY person with a FAL is a recipe for a mass shooting"  :Have A Nice Day:

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## 300CALMAN

Actually the Military is trained to kill people with said firearms. Maybe they are the last ones who should own firearms in Civilian life?

Natatale please educate yourself and talk from a position of facts. The world is a lot bigger that just the US, Australia and UK. Many other Countries allow people to own semi auto firearms and have few incidents.

Unfortunately psychos will be psychos and kill people, some cultures seem too breed more than others. :Psmiley: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childe...rs_Hostel_fire


We will swallow a chill pill if you do.

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## GravelBen

@Natatale - thats better  :Wink:  In my opinion you're wrong about that and having semi-auto rifles available to licenced owners does not significantly increase the risk of mass shootings.

PS it hasn't taken up 2hrs of my time because I just pop on for a few minutes, post and then go do something else. But it is far more interesting than washing the dishes.

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## Natatale

> Actually the Military is trained to kill people with said firearms. Maybe they are the last ones who should own firearms in Civilian life?
> 
> Natatale please educate yourself and talk from a position of facts. The world is a lot bigger that just the US, Australia and UK. Many other Countries allow people to own semi auto firearms and have few incidents.
> 
> Unfortunately psychos will be psychos and kill people, some cultures seem too breed more than others.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childe...rs_Hostel_fire
> 
> 
> We will swallow a chill pill if you do.


I agree and yep I'm into chill pills  :Thumbsup:

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## Natatale

> @Natatale - thats better  In my opinion you're wrong about that and having semi-auto rifles available to licenced owners does not significantly increase the risk of mass shootings.
> 
> PS it hasn't taken up 2hrs of my time because I just pop on for a few minutes, post and then go do something else. But it is far more interesting than washing the dishes.


Hmm I'm can agree to dis-agree, who's up for a debate on the Rugby cup 2015  :Grin:

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## stretch

> Why is my argument NOT valid ??? And what outlandish claims have I made ?? I said that they shouldn't be available to "un-trained" persons. In an "Ideal world" why do we need them ????


What's this 'ideal world' rubbish?

These claims of yours are outlandish (just plain wrong):




> This is the same debate that we had in Oz, before some dick decided to kill 36 people with a semi auto 7.62. Soon made everybody realise that military style semi-auto weapons aren't safe in civilian hands, they were made for *War and Killing on mass*.


Not EVERYBODY came to that realisation. Some more reasonable people would've figured out that ANY firearm is not safe in the hands of someone with serious mental health issues.

MSSAs are NOT made for 'war and killing en-mass' - they lack the full auto functionality of a modern military rifle.




> There are places for these types of weapons and NZ doesn't really need them !!


NZ is a great place to lawfully use a semi-auto 7.62, or any other cal, MSSA or not. NZ DOES need them. The Police and the NZDF for obvious reasons. But if by 'NZ' you mean NZers, for private use, then there's plenty of useful stuff an individual doesn't NEED.




> Hey I'm Ex-Military and love using firearms, but can you tell me where are there military shooting clubs that can train the novice shooters to use semi auto military type weapons?? 
> Please get it that military rifles in the hands of civilians without proper training and guidance is a recipe for a mass shooting.


You keep changing the terminology you use. You've said MSSAs, semi-auto 7.62, semi-auto military type, and military rifles. They're different things, and there's different rules for each. Please clarify which type of firearm, or which set of features you have a problem with an A-cat FAL holder using.




> But what I cant believe is that NZ doesn't have a basic fire arms registry, just for starters.
> Which just leaves it wide open for mis-use.


We had a firearms register, it did nothing to solve or reduce crime, so it was binned. Same thing has been found in other countries, such as Canada. Evidence-based policy making. More govts should try it in more areas.




> I feel much safer right here thanks !


You are advocating for tighter rules, yet feel safer in NZ than Oz, with its more restrictive gun laws. Doesn't make sense.



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## R93

> Hmm I'm can agree to dis-agree, who's up for a debate on the Rugby cup 2015


I am. But would prefer to have it with a Scott or Argie as the consecutive World Champs should have played either one of them in the final.😆




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## kotuku

> Should the age someone can get a firearms licence be raised? - Opinion - NZ Herald News


A load of the most contrived left leaning socialist tripe as big as any Ive seen from this rag! whose the gutless wonder author -another journalistic excuse with no spine for a shiver to run up I wouldnt insult my arse by wiping it with this peurile crap!this is the sort of rigged shit you get on the bastion of intellectual paddling pools -trademe message boards.

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## Ryan

> This is the same debate that we had in Oz, before some dick decided to kill 36 people with a semi auto 7.62. Soon made everybody realise that military style semi-auto weapons aren't safe in civilian hands, they were made for *War and Killing on mass*.
> So while America keeps on having mass shootings and we have people killing each other here, then the media will take every advantage to make headlines. We are so lucky with the gun laws that we have, but I think they are too relaxed and require some overhauling.
> Age limiting isn't one that needs changing, semi-auto high powered weapons in un-trained would be a good start.


I could go on about the mass killings perpetrated in South Africa on a _daily_ basis with handguns, semi-auto and select fire weapons of all types of calibres. 

Does it stop citizens in that country from owning handguns, modern sporting rifles (i.e. semi-auto centrefire rifles)?

No.

Does it have any relevance to New Zealand?

No.

Should military experience count as some sort of prerequisite for owning a semi-automatic rifle?

No.

----------


## MassiveAttack

> I'm sorry when was the last mass shooting ?? Did I miss something, I think it's gone a long way to make Oz a lot safer. There will always be shootings, get rid of guns totally, and the they will stab each other, take knives away they will stone each other.
> We as humans are bloody dangerous creatures, always have been, and always will be, but limit to what we kill each other with, surely it will help the innocent bystanders from being shot in MASS. !!!


Not sure about mass shooting but the other week some bloke wearing pajamers walked into the police HQ, followed someone out and then shot them with a pistol.  The fact that someone can get their hands on one of the most restricted weapons in one of the tightest gun control countries makes proves that the whole thing is pointless.

----------


## MassiveAttack

> how does a registry stop mis-use? are the crims going to register their guns?


Well we register cars now and they never get misused or used in a crime so sounds like a perfect plan to me.

----------


## oneshot

> Ok sorry lets try it this way "In my opinion, having semi auto 7.62 readably available to ANY person with a FAL is a recipe for a mass shooting"


What an incredibly sad misguided individual.

----------


## mikee

I find it odd that the very people who say our gun laws should be made tougher are the same  people who expect the "heavily armed " police or army to protect them (or is that that they only protect "Important People", Politicians or "Wealthy People" and possibly not the "Sheeple")

With firearms there are NOT "Degrees of Dangerousness" depending on the type. 

For example with a MSSA being a semi over 7 rounds capacity, can someone explain how the 8th shot is more "dangerous'er" than the 5th, 6th or 7th ones


You are either "fit and proper" or not.

----------


## Natatale

> I find it odd that the very people who say our gun laws should be made tougher are the same  people who expect the "heavily armed " police or army to protect them (or is that that they only protect "Important People", Politicians or "Wealthy People" and possibly not the "Sheeple")
> 
> With firearms there are NOT "Degrees of Dangerousness" depending on the type. 
> 
> For example with a MSSA being a semi over 7 rounds capacity, can someone explain how the 8th shot is more "dangerous'er" than the 5th, 6th or 7th ones
> 
> 
> You are either "fit and proper" or not.


WTF are you on about "Protect us from who ???" The gun nutter with AR15, with 10*30round mags who wants to shoot the shit out of anything that moves ???
Fuck we have people being killed by single shot rifles here, so wake up when I say we need more training !!!!! NOT Military training just fucking common sense training !!

----------


## mikee

> WTF are you on about "Protect us from who ???" The gun nutter with AR15, with 10*30round mags who wants to shoot the shit out of anything that moves ???
> Fuck we have people being killed by single shot rifles here, so wake up when I say we need more training !!!!! NOT Military training just fucking common sense training !!


Well Protect us from Criminals for a start.................

"The gun nutter" as you so eloquently put it,  with AR15 should have failed the Fit and proper test if the vetting was done properly!!

Not too mention have 30 round mags they waould have also been vetted again for their E Endorsement,


We are going to have to agree to disagree I'm afraid.

----------


## timattalon

> WTF are you on about "Protect us from who ???" The gun nutter with AR15, with 10*30round mags who wants to shoot the shit out of anything that moves ???
> Fuck we have people being killed by single shot rifles here, so wake up when I say we need more training !!!!! NOT Military training just fucking common sense training !!


I have had a few "former military" people who have been "trained" in firearms tell me they were son much better etc and that they were safer than hunters. I will say I never had to listen to a hunter ask for a semi auto AK with a 30 round mag (pre MSSA when they were still A cat) so he could shoot ducks on the golf course......And yes I did hear that discussion with a shop who RIGHTLY refused to sell that rifle. I have heard so many scary techniques that former military think is safe when hunters would flinch at the idea. In a military scenario the training they have is exactly what they need to survive in a combat situation, fast reflexes, snap shots, quick follow up, always ready, etc. Almost none of the training reflect "safe" firearms  use in a hunting situation. (think how many of the 7 basic rules are NOT used by these military training techniques. Load only when ready to fire, Always point in a safe direction, to name the first obvious ones.

I am on the fence with what you are saying. In some respects I agree with your intentions and ideas but the problem I have is the reasoning behind why you want this. Look at all the mass shootings, here and in the US. Look closely. They were NOT because the shooters were untrained, in fact, I am under the understanding that some of them have sought out training to make them more effective. They are almost all primarily due to failings in detecting or controlling mental issues or drugs and violent attitudes. Training people to use firearms safely is a good idea, and all shooters should search out this increase in skill level. But it will make no difference whatsoever to mass killings. If you really want to reduce that risk then you are needing to target mental health providers and policy makers to change THEIR ways. You need to target drug dealers and reduce the impact of these on society. Why is this not happening? Too hard.......

Gun registrys are a waste of time and resource. The only firearms that will be on there will be legally owned by law abiding citizens who are not the problem. The "nut jobs and druggies" that own or steal firearms, and criminals will not register theirs as they would be immediately seized.  Aussie has some of the silliest knee jerk rules around gun ownership and is following closely with the NATO premise that only military organisations should have firearms. Considering Aussie has a large number of animals that are hazardous to humans (crocs, snakes, huge razor back boars, etc) they should be the other way inclined to allow the citizenry protect itself from legitimate threats to human safety.

Finally my take is Guns dont kill people, Cars do. And registering those certainly stopped mass killing didn't it? Driver training helps but did that stop the deaths? 

How many people own guns in this country? Last I heard is there was nearly a million guns in NZ. That is one for every 4 people. How many cars? double that? More? 4 million? and how many people die by car each year.....?

Might I suggest you are barking up the wrong tree? More people in Aussie drown each year than sharks have killed in many decades combined, Yet are they more scared of the sharks or drowning?

----------


## Moutere

> You are either "fit and proper" or not.


That's it in a nut shell !

----------


## R93

Military trained people safe😆

Na. Obeying common safety in civilian circles is useless and counter productive in the military.
Common sense and trust amongst soldiers is the only strict safety observed away from a designated range.

I admit struggling with some aspects of civilian range rules when I retired. Still do.

Some things we took in our stride in the military would have people visably sick in civilian circles regarding safety.

How many of you would walk forward from 100 to patch out a target on a screen while another mate is shooting at a point 12" away on that same screen and continues to do so until you return.
That is just a tame example.😆

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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## rossi.45

what is it with this ' ex military ' that they think they're so much better with guns than anyone else  . . because they did some training for dummies back in the day.

this lack of thinking that says ' its a recipe for disaster if anyone but them has a semi-auto ' facts have no place with them  . .  you cannot fix stupid but you do have to spend so much time trying to fend them off before they do to much damage.

----------


## Moutere

> The gun nutter with AR15, with 10*30round mags who wants to shoot the shit out of anything that moves ???


Who are all these people that shoot the shit out of anything that moves?
In my experience most shooters and hunters are responsible, considerate and above all law abiding.

----------


## Cyclops

My 2 cents worth.

My son turned 16 last month and obtained a learners drivers licence and a firearms licence. 

Both were relatively easy to get. He had more vetting for his FAL than the drivers. 
He is more likely to injure or kill someone when using his drivers licence than his firearms licence. 

It is the misuse of vehicle or firearm that will kill regardless of the licence status of the user. 

I don't think raising the age for either licence would achieve any meaningful change.

----------


## Moutere

> Fuck we have people being killed by single shot rifles here, so wake up when I say we need more training !!!!! NOT Military training just fucking common sense training !!


I presume you're talking about hunting accidents here?
Have you ever stopped and wondered why so many hunting accidents are caused by experienced hunters. I think the discussion on human factors is a good direction. Sadly, I bet in nearly every situation the individual was convinced that they were shooting at game and not a person. No amount of competence based training will help someone that succumbs to visual illusions and incorrectly identifies their target.

----------


## Sidney

Yeah but I have no doubt that a process that we were trained to go through would help with that....  we just need to know how it happens, and how to best deal with it.. then perhaps we might be able to generate a mental exercise that is more highly likely to be the correct outcome.  The aim small, identify 3 parts of the animal sort of thing might be a useful part of that process...  I would make the point also that we will be unlikely to be able to realistically identify people more likely to have issues prior to an incident.  Eyesight tests and colour blindness and any potential susceptibility to optical illusion doesn't necessarily translate into poor decision making.  It often makes people more careful and less likely to have problems.

Also there is no evidence to suggest that only some individuals are susceptible...  I think that we all are.  There could be a genetic factor at work, but all of us are subject to optical illusion under certain circumstances.

----------


## Moutere

Exactly my point, anyone is susceptible to this phenomenon. All the things you added Sidney are all part of the Swiss cheese effect that lead up to an incident to where some is situationally impaired. Maybe that was a better term than visual illusion.

My previous post would be more correct to read...... 'someone that succumbs to *a* visual illusion and incorrectly identifies their target'.

----------


## Rushy

As a former soldier (ex military for you that are not in the know) I do not believe that the training that I received has made me a safer handler of firearms than anyone that has not been in the forces.  In fact when I first sat my FAL test I got one question wrong and that was one of the seven critical questions that cannot be answered incorrectly.  In hindsight on the day when reviewing why I had gotten all other questions correct and this one wrong it was simply because I had answered from a former soldiers viewpoint.  Being ex military is no determinant of safety.

----------


## Nick-D

> most shootings are not carried out by people with a FAL, and they will be the only ones who register guns. so how does a registry stop mass shootings?
> when NZ had a registry pre 1982 it was shown to have never been used to solve a crime.
> Aus and the uk have a registry and gun crime has gone up, canada scraped their registry after a few years and after spending millions on it. why would they scrap it if it worked? oh wait it didnt work


Yep firearms registries are a joke, and a nightmare to administer.

----------


## Sideshow

Ok so you join a branch of the military do you get a firearms licence?
If you leave the military do you instantly get given a firearms licence or do you still need to sit one?
Now join the military and don't have vehicle licence?

----------


## stretch

> Ok so you join a branch of the military do you get a firearms licence?
> If you leave the military do you instantly get given a firearms licence or do you still need to sit one?
> Now join the military and don't have vehicle licence?


Q1. No.
Q2. No.
Q3. If your trade requires a vehicle licence, the army will train you and get you your vehicle licence in the relevant vehicle class(es). The Army has its own LTSA certified instructors for this. 

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## GravelBen

> Ok so you join a branch of the military do you get a firearms licence?


Had a funny conversation with a cop mate at one stage about him being qualified to use handguns, AR15s etc on duty if necessary but couldn't go shooting in his own time as he didn't have a licence. Good bugger with his head on the right way, think I'd still trust him more than most people with a gun.

----------


## Shooter

A very interesting thread, with some very divided opinions...

----------


## Sideshow

> Q1. No.
> Q2. No.
> Q3. If your trade requires a vehicle licence, the army will train you and get you your vehicle licence in the relevant vehicle class(es). The Army has its own LTSA certified instructors for this. 
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


Yes already new the answer to this one. 
But while in the forces how many times did you see dick next to you do something so stupid you thought bugger that could have been me us?!
Don't get me wrong here any body who serves to protect hats off in my book...but not all are trained the right way!
If you have been tought in one envorment dose not mean that you can't retrain for a new envroment.

----------


## Roddy

Just to throw my 10c on the Military training discussion.

Not all military are fully trained in the art of war.  All are trained during basic, but at a basic level.  After that most would be lucky to fire their rifles more than a couple times a year, at the most.  

Just because someone has "got some time up" it dosn't mean they are jungle fighting snipers that fly Wokkers, jumping out of C130's while firing their cruise missles.  More than likely they are mechanic's, cooks, blanket counters etc that go to work just like Mr Civi

1/2 of them have to reminded that the sharp end is the bit that the bullets comes out of

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## R93

Doesn't matter what role you have. In the Army for example so many civilian safety rules are pointless and not practiced that I think teeth arms especially have a different approach to safety. And would go as far as saying they would come out of the service as complacent. 
I did.
If you sweep someone with a pistol in ipsc you are likely DQ and considered a safety risk.

You could be firing it to cover a withdrawal toward someone running straight back at you in the military especially during training.

Dunno about now as it may have changed but certain members of a patrol would be locked and loaded with safety off and auto selected for weeks on end whilst moving. If you are doing your job properly you would sweep other members of your team countless times.
I never gave it a second thought, it was a requirement.

My point being, soldiers are not imo, going to automaticly have better safety standards than civilians that have high standards.



Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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## Natatale

Hmm still not getting the point, don't care about military training, been there done that and I know what you are on about. 
But how many of the wantabee shooters get hold of a sks and a 100 rounds and haven't a clue of ANY form of training, only 1 hour of a safety talk that got them their FAL.
I would love to see 1/2 a day on a range as part of the FAL process in place of the 1 hour safety talk. Surely that's got to help ???

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## veitnamcam

The head of police/minister of police countered that question by quoting a shooting incident where the shooter aimed shot and killed his mate so he had just proved he knew how to aim accurately and hit his target so what more would a couple of hours at a range do for him?

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## Moutere

There shouldn't be any 'wannabe' shooters, people are either licenced or should be under the direct supervision of someone who is licenced.
There is an exam at the end of their 'safety talk' in which one must demonstrate their knowledge and understanding of the subject matter, the following of which should in theory preclude any accident or incident. Not to mention referrals and interviews.
Quit making generalisations about us a user group to be a bunch of muppets. Anyone with a computer can read this forum, they shouldn't have cause to form a negative opinion of us.

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## Beavis

> Hmm still not getting the point, don't care about military training, been there done that and I know what you are on about. 
> But how many of the wantabee shooters get hold of a sks and a 100 rounds and haven't a clue of ANY form of training, only 1 hour of a safety talk that got them their FAL.
> I would love to see 1/2 a day on a range as part of the FAL process in place of the 1 hour safety talk. Surely that's got to help ???


1) What difference does it make whether a "wannabe" shooter gets and sks, a jw15 or whatever?

2) Who is going to run this half a day on the range? 

3) Whose range are you going to use? Some towns and rural areas have no range.

4) How is your half a day on the range going to stop people from shooting at each other in the field, when the range is nothing like the bush?

5) Who's going to pay for all this?

----------


## veitnamcam

> 1) What difference does it make whether a "wannabe" shooter gets and sks, a jw15 or whatever?
> 
> 2) Who is going to run this half a day on the range? 
> 
> 3) Whose range are you going to use? Some towns and rural areas have no range.
> 
> 4) How is your half a day on the range going to stop people from shooting at each other in the field, when the range is nothing like the bush?
> 
> 5) Who's going to pay for all this?


Australia.

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## Dan88

I would think it very very rare for someone in New Zealand to apply for their license who has not had previous experience with firearms. and by experience I mean has at least fired a gun of some sort. most people applying for a FAL would probably have mates or family who are interested in shooting and from whom they caught the bug.

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## Pointer

Two of the biggest idiots I have ever shot with, both in unrelated time and places, were both ex army. Just saying

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## 300CALMAN

> Hmm still not getting the point, don't care about military training, been there done that and I know what you are on about. 
> But how many of the wantabee shooters get hold of a sks and a 100 rounds and haven't a clue of ANY form of training, only 1 hour of a safety talk that got them their FAL.
> I would love to see 1/2 a day on a range as part of the FAL process in place of the 1 hour safety talk. Surely that's got to help ???


No I don't think you do.
My first centrefire WAS an SKS, long before I had any military training. The Mountain Safety Instructor made it very clear to us that a semi auto could be just as safe as any other gun, you just have to always remember that another round is loaded after you fire it. It is also very easy to check the chamber in an SKS (or SLR) and see if you have a round in the chamber or magazine. Very simple safety also. NEVER had an incident...
The Mountain Safety Instructor also warned us about tube magazines. Much more dangerous as they require a more work to check properly. I know of several untended discharges with tube fed firearms. Some bolt actions are also harder to check.

----------


## Rushy

> Two of the biggest idiots I have ever shot with, both in unrelated time and places, were both ex army. Just saying


I hope one of these idiots wasn't me Pointer because I can't ever remember every shooting with you.  Have I? Surely not! Can't have could I?

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## Natatale

Hmm ok so all shooters are perfect, with a perfect FAL system and no one will ever shoot anybody else so what more can I say, nothing !!  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Moutere

In my opinion and experience.... it is a good, simple, robust, tenable system, where by far the majority do the right thing.

----------


## stretch

This chap is anything BUT 'fit and proper'. http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti...ectid=11541131

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## Tommy

> This chap is anything BUT 'fit and proper'. Alarming Facebook photos: 'Aucklander' holds machine gun, poses with Isis flag and declares 'holy war'


Faaaaaark....  And this is just the one stupid enough to put that on a public facebook post.

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## Moutere

Ha, can't blame that rooster for wanting to change his name, what a mouthful. 
Hopefully that's  just an airsoft BB gun for show. 
I'm glad the Feds are on to him. 
Religion cool eh !

----------


## Sidney

No... blaming religion for nut jobs is no different than blaming guns for nut jobs...  

In fact its actually worse and even more inaccurate... most extremists ignore what their religion teaches....because they are nut jobs..

Religion's got the same guilt by association bullshit that firearms have got.... try to be a little smarter than that....

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## MassiveAttack

> No... blaming religion for nut jobs is no different than blaming guns for nut jobs...  
> 
> In fact its actually worse and even more inaccurate... most extremists ignore what their religion teaches....because they are nut jobs..
> 
> Religion's got the same guilt by association bullshit that firearms have got.... try to be a little smarter than that....


Is not quite the same thing.  To be religious by definition you have to believe in a particular higher power without any concrete proof that he\she\it exists.  Once you start accepting ideas because of "faith" and you are in the same dubious group of people who believe in a flat earth and homeopathy.

Also in Islam the punishment for apostasy (leaving the faith or questioning its fundamental beliefs) is defined in the Qur'an is death so you can't deny that is a violent religion.

I am not saying Islam is any worse than any other religion, just that they are all illogical and violent.

----------


## MassiveAttack

> This chap is anything BUT 'fit and proper'. Alarming Facebook photos: Aucklander holds machine gun, poses with Isis flag and declares 'holy war'


So the GCSB is reading all of emails to protect us all from "terrorism" and they found out about this bloke by reading his Facebook posts?

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## stretch

One day religious belief will land you outside the 'fit and proper' classification.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## MassiveAttack

> One day religious belief will land you outside the 'fit and proper' classification.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


Hearing voices in your head used to be enough for the pope to make you a saint.  These days they call it schizophrenia.

----------


## gimp

> This is the same debate that we had in Oz, before some dick decided to kill 36 people with a semi auto 7.62. Soon made everybody realise that military style semi-auto weapons aren't safe in civilian hands, they were made for *War and Killing on mass*.
> So while America keeps on having mass shootings and we have people killing each other here, then the media will take every advantage to make headlines. We are so lucky with the gun laws that we have, but I think they are too relaxed and require some overhauling.
> Age limiting isn't one that needs changing, semi-auto high powered weapons in un-trained would be a good start.


Fuck off back to Oz, ta

----------


## GravelBen

> Is not quite the same thing.  To be religious by definition you have to believe in a particular higher power without any concrete proof that he\she\it exists.  Once you start accepting ideas because of "faith" and you are in the same dubious group of people who believe in a flat earth and homeopathy.


Every human being has beliefs that don't have conrete proof. If you deny that then I'd be inclined to think you're delusional.

----------


## stretch

C̶o̶n̶c̶r̶e̶t̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶o̶f̶ evidence

----------


## 300CALMAN

Evidence that Mohamed existed? Plenty of that. Evidence that he was a military leader and that his followers conquered large parts of the world? Also plenty of that. More evidence than for many historic figures that we accept as real. I guess they are just following their leader...

However The biggest butchers in history have mostly been Atheists like Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler etc trying to achieve some sort of very earthly goal (power). 

People can be led to do all sorts of evil stuff if you have the power and techniques to convince them (and they let you do it).

You can even convince people that gun owners are bad people if you control the press! :Wtfsmilie:

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## Beavis

> Fuck off back to Oz, ta


*Says what we were all really thinking but didn't want to be so ruthless*

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## 300CALMAN

> Hmm ok so all shooters are perfect, with a perfect FAL system and no one will ever shoot anybody else so what more can I say, nothing !!


Nah that is one of the biggest points. Nothing is ever perfect. There will always be some stuff ups and errors. Just part of life.

----------


## Tommy

> *Says what we were all really thinking but didn't want to be so ruthless*


It's his party, he chooses the music hahaha

----------


## Jexla

> It's his party, he chooses the music hahaha


In saying that, I like this song...

----------


## Savage1

> No... blaming religion for nut jobs is no different than blaming guns for nut jobs...  
> 
> In fact its actually worse and even more inaccurate... most extremists ignore what their religion teaches....because they are nut jobs..
> 
> Religion's got the same guilt by association bullshit that firearms have got.... try to be a little smarter than that....


Really?! That has to be one of the most Politically Correct but completely incorrect posts on here.

The greatest tragedy in Mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.

----------


## Tommy

> Really?! That has to be one of the most Politically Correct but completely incorrect posts on here.
> 
> The greatest tragedy in Mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.


Truth

----------


## GravelBen

> Truth


I was going to go with 'bullshit' myself, I guess that means we disagree  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Savage1

I was only talking about the religion part of the post, guns don't make "nut jobs".

----------


## 300CALMAN

:36 1 7: 

Wow I think this thread has gone a bit off base. I would like to blame the Australian.

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## marky123

well if you're gonna mention religion,I'm gonna mention Hitler.
Hitler.
MARK

----------


## stretch

> Wow I think this thread has gone a bit off base. I would like to blame the Australian.


Moral of the story is "convicts shouldn't have guns".  :Wink:

----------


## Moutere

> No... blaming religion for nut jobs is no different than blaming guns for nut jobs...  
> 
> In fact its actually worse and even more inaccurate... most extremists ignore what their religion teaches....because they are nut jobs..
> 
> Religion's got the same guilt by association bullshit that firearms have got.... try to be a little smarter than that....


I take your point and accept that mine is a gross generalisation, however in my eyes religious fanaticism is still religion.
This waste has been happening for thousands of years and no doubt will continue to do so for a long time to come. Having experienced murder on an extremely personal level at the hand of someone doing their gods work, I hope you'll understand why I struggle to be as smart as you suggest. I will admit to finding your post naive, but also accept that mine is prejudiced.
It is pure evil that someone can be motivated to take another life for no other reason than an opposing belief.

----------


## jakewire

> Is not quite the same thing.  To be religious by definition you have to believe in a particular higher power without any concrete proof that he\she\it exists.  Once you start accepting ideas because of "faith" and you are in the same dubious group of people who believe in a flat earth and homeopathy.
> 
> Also in Islam the punishment for apostasy (leaving the faith or questioning its fundamental beliefs) is defined in the Qur'an is death so you can't deny that is a violent religion.
> 
> I am not saying Islam is any worse than any other religion, just that they are all illogical and violent.


  @MassiveAttack and others.
Hey I think this is a topic for another day
probably another forum.
Just sayin, at the moment.

----------


## Sidney

> Is not quite the same thing.  To be religious by definition you have to believe in a particular higher power without any concrete proof that he\she\it exists.  Once you start accepting ideas because of "faith" and you are in the same dubious group of people who believe in a flat earth and homeopathy.
> 
> Also in Islam the punishment for apostasy (leaving the faith or questioning its fundamental beliefs) is defined in the Qur'an is death so you can't deny that is a violent religion.
> 
> I am not saying Islam is any worse than any other religion, just that they are all illogical and violent.


Actually it is the same thing... I wasn't talking about the veracity of either subject, merely the comparison of how people choose to treat them and the hypocrisy of that...

The reality of the many adherents who cause no offence, issues or violence being judged by the actions of the few that do....

Is that any clearer for you....?

----------


## Pointer

> I hope one of these idiots wasn't me Pointer because I can't ever remember every shooting with you.  Have I? Surely not! Can't have could I?


No mate not you. In a round about way we have shot together but we were at different sides of the paddock  :Have A Nice Day:

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## jakewire

Sidney , you have had time to read my post
So
Stop it.

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## jakewire

300CLAMAN
I have deleted your posts,
if anybody else carries on like this I will lock the thread.

----------


## Rushy

Guys we all have fervent and passionate viewpoints on the subject matter in this thread and I support everyone's right to have their personal view but we need to heed the warnings that are being given.  By my count we are at two strikes and a ball.  Jakewire I applaud your approach.

----------


## Rushy

> The greatest tragedy in Mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.


Savage1 you may well have just coined one of the top fifty most well reasoned one line statements of all time without even intending to do so.

----------


## steven

> So you reckon if we get rid of them, we won't have mass killings, or when we do, the shooter will kill people at a more acceptable rate, with something else?


Yep, the ignorance on the anti-gun side beggars belief frankly, even the so called academics dont seem to accept the statistics.  Just reading the anti-gun comments and I can see how clueless they are. 

Things like ban  "assault weapons" yet most mass killings in the USA are with handguns.  Which makes sense actually, easy to hide so you can get into the school un-noticed, and you dont want a "long ar15" when you walk into a class room. Surely you want a handgun (plus a spare in a holster) in each hand holding 15 rounds each or even one of those snail mags holding a shag load of rounds and just start blasting at 5metres.

had an interesting "discussion" with some americans they were all for banning ARs but wanted to keep their handguns for their own self-defence. Yets when I pointed out most killings were with handguns (accidents, mass killings, self-defence etc) they just could not accept that they and their handguns were the biggest problem and the easiest fix.

----------


## Koshogi

> the easiest fix.


No such thing when it comes to gun control in the USA.

Even if you banned handguns today, you would still have 50-90 million in circulation. How many of those do you think would be voluntarily surrendered?

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## Koshogi

> If you are doing your job properly you would sweep other members of your team countless times.
> I never gave it a second thought, it was a requirement.
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


What a load of horseshit. 

If you are sweeping your team mates while scanning your arcs, you doing it wrong!

----------


## Shooter

> What a load of horseshit. 
> 
> If you are sweeping your team mates while scanning your arcs, you doing it wrong!


I agree with what @R93 has said including the requirement to scan ones arcs which may or may not include a fellow patrol member.
 @Koshogi how would you do it?  I would love to know the "proper" way as you clearly have a ton of experience...

----------


## Koshogi

Unless your fellow patrol members are ANA.....

I'm glad you agree with R93, and think it's a good idea to point a loaded firearm at your comrades....

If I need to tell you how NOT to point a firearm at somebody, I'm probably wasting my time.

Ya, I've been on a patrol or two champ.


Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## Savage1

> Unless your fellow patrol members are ANA.....
> 
> I'm glad you agree with R93, and think it's a good idea to point a loaded firearm at your comrades....
> 
> If I need to tell you how NOT to point a firearm at somebody, I'm probably wasting my time.
> 
> Ya, I've been on a patrol or two champ.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Care to list you experience?

I don't know what R93's experience is but from previous posts I gather he knows a thing or two and I rate his contributions quite highly.

----------


## Koshogi

> Care to list you experience?
> 
> I don't know what R93's experience is but from previous posts I gather he knows a thing or two and I rate his contributions quite highly.


I've listed my experience previously.

I'm sure R93 is both experienced and highly qualified in the skill of arms. 

Experience doesn't always equate to competence (I'm not saying he is not competent. I just disagree with his opinion on this matter).

Just think for yourself. Does the idea of pointing a loaded firearm at people sound like a smart idea?

Just because it is taught in the military doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## Shooter

> I've listed my experience previously.
> 
> I'm sure R93 is both experienced and highly qualified in the skill of arms. 
> 
> Experience doesn't always equate to competence (I'm not saying he is not competent. I just disagree with his opinion on this matter).
> 
> Just think for yourself. Does the idea of pointing a loaded firearm at people sound like a smart idea?
> 
> Just because it is taught in the military doesn't mean it's a good thing.
> ...


Yes I have read your "Experience".  I am just wondering how you would skin the cat so to speak? You did say that R93 is did/doing it "wrong"...

Just remember that you are not the only one here that has had military experience so be careful how you word things in relation to a persons "competence".

----------


## BRADS

Fuck hang on chaps I'll just grab another beer this is going to get good


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## R93

> What a load of horseshit. 
> 
> If you are sweeping your team mates while scanning your arcs, you doing it wrong!


Fair enough😆 I must have been doing/taught wrong.

I have been told that a few times when I was young and eager........mainly by women.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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## kiwijames

> Fair enough I must have been doing/taught wrong.
> 
> I have been told that a few times when I was young and eager........mainly by women.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


I thought there was more than enough bait in the water to get a decent bite.

----------


## BRADS

> I thought there was more than enough bait in the water to get a decent bite.


Same, very controlled response though!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## R93

Meh. I just woke up. On night shift. 
Having a brew with a couple ex diggers now and they were not favorable to the suggestion that it doesn't happen. 
But then again what would they know.


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## 300CALMAN

:X X:  wait and the thread is OFF COURSE *AGAIN*!!! 

Time to buy another six pack and make myself comfortable  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

----------


## R93

For kiwis that do not know, the term "champ" used in Australian military circles is actually one of the lowest insults you can dish out or receive. 
Noted.😆



Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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## Shooter

Glad I was not the only one who picked up that term...

----------


## Koshogi

> For kiwis that do not know, the term "champ" used in Australian military circles is actually one of the lowest insults you can dish out or receive. 
> Noted.😆
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


I always thought "Jack c@nt" was the lowest. We used "champ" more as a friendly taunt.

YMMV



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## Rushy

> Just because it is taught in the military doesn't mean it's a good thing.


Agreed but in a theatre of war it probably does make it a necessary thing.

----------


## Shooter

Depending on the tone yes that would be up there.

Anyway @Koshogi, I am still waiting for your "method" to patrolling as we clearly are doing it wrong...

----------


## Koshogi

> Depending on the tone yes that would be up there.
> 
> Anyway @Koshogi, I am still waiting for your "method" to patrolling as we clearly are doing it wrong...




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## Shooter

As I thought. The way we patrol is "horseshit" but the way you patrol is with a clown.

We will continue on as we have, with the "Educated and accepted risk" of patrolling with intent regardless of what is presented within our arcs.

----------


## stub

No wonder everyone thinks gun owners are mental

----------


## Koshogi

> As I thought. The way we patrol is "horseshit" but the way you patrol is with a clown.
> 
> We will continue on as we have, with the "Educated and accepted risk" of patrolling with intent regardless of what is presented within our arcs.


What!!! NZ Army doctrine isn't going to change based on the opinion of some random guy on an internet forum? What a load of horseshit! 



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## Sideshow

I think you guys maybe a little way off thread.

----------


## Ryan

> I think you guys maybe a little way off thread.



(Been dying to use this again).

----------


## 308

"No politics or religion" - gosh I wonder why that rule came about

Getting back to the original idea of the thread - I'm curious as to whether this series of media releases will be sustained or will die out - I think that what works is to just smile and wave, provide facts where possible and not engage with the wingnuts - all of this will be forgotten in a few weeks

----------


## Rushy

> "No politics or religion" - gosh I wonder why that rule came about
> 
> Getting back to the original idea of the thread - I'm curious as to whether this series of media releases will be sustained or will die out - I think that what works is to just smile and wave, provide facts where possible and not engage with the wingnuts - all of this will be forgotten in a few weeks


You are right of course 308 but it will keep coming around like an orbiting comet.

----------


## steven

Indeed Rushy it will come around in the media again, so the thing is to be ready for it.

One thing I have learned is many ppl have an opinion that is not based on data, experimentation, maths, science etc but they just know they are right.   The anti-gunners are not an exception (in fact amongst the worst), its purely emotional.  So when ever I enter such a discussion of areas that interest me (peak oil, climate change, economics, oh and yes, guns) I try to ensure I have my facts right and know what their arguments are likely to be and have counters to them and provide evidence.   So an example when they say NZ's gun laws are too lax and we should be like OZ, I point out that NZ has less homicides per 100,000 than OZ and that stat been declining faster than OZ.  Same applies when they say our gun laws should match OZ, my answer is so you want more deaths? When they say the better OZ laws in 1996 dropped the suicide rate by gun, yes it did, but it was dropping anyway and the faster drop it caused lasted 3 years then reverted to the same trend as pre-1996.  Did overall suicide rates decline? didnt make a difference ppl just top themselves by other means.  Why are our stats better than OZ? probably because the police have a better relationship with the community where there can be problems though I am still trying to get info on that.  ie a law change wouldnt have any success.

The last thing we want is nutjobs posting in public saying "you cant take my guns".  "you cant make it harder for me to get gun stuff, I am a legit owner"  etc.  Fess up to our / any weaknesses and fix them, it makes us look good IMHO. While it wont make the emotional insecure feel any better the more rational joe bloggs voter on the street will hopefully look at both sides and decide who looks the bigger wanker, and in our favour.  The recent guncity fiasco was a case in point IMHO, I think we could have been way more positive and constructive.  

Now I am pretty sure some journalist will try to do something similar again, possibly via TM.

----------


## Shooter

Yes, I do think it will just die out and something will replace it(it seems that plane crashes and lack of security in international airports is the topic at the moment), or the national flag will be back in the lime light soon.

Although there has been the small change in the mail order process as a result of a long run of firearm news, ending with the stunt by TV3.

Will we go down the same road as Aus? Well I think not, but fear of moving to a similar system as Aus will hopefully keep us on our toes and hopefully increase overall vigilance.

----------


## Beavis

And again... Private gun sales 'thriving' | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News

^this cunt

----------


## Krameranzac

I would like to know who that dealer is. What a clown!

----------


## Rushy

A fair amount of conflict of interest bias in the quoted comments in that article I suspect.

----------


## stretch

I expect to see his revenue plummet. He's basically saying "private sales hurt my business. All sales should go through me so I can clip the ticket".

----------


## Kscott

> ''Over the internet, or a mate talking to a mate down at the pub, nine times out of 10 they won't ask to see a gun licence. And when someone messes up we all cop the flak."


Pretty much.But it would be interesting to see some statistical analysis of this.

----------


## kotuku

no doubt the reporter /s also rearrange off the cuff comments to asuit the spin they put on their articles too.never let facts get in the way of a good story -Prof Kevin Clements -everytime i see this peacenik quoted I feel the urgent need to go squat on the dunny!conspiracy peddler he is.
 Duh -doesnt the bloody gunshop owner know we had firearms rego systyem that the cops decided didnt work &dismantled!
 ive still got some of those docs around here somewhere.
 lets face it ,a lot of these MSM pricks should have been shot onto a hot tin fence and left to marinate in the sun-we'd frankly be better off without them!

----------


## Koshogi

*"He thought a month-long test should be introduced to ensure gun owners could safely operate a gun, store it securely and hit a target"

Month long test? Wow, gun owners/dealers are their own worst enemy.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## 300CALMAN

> And again... Private gun sales 'thriving' | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News
> 
> ^this cunt


''Private gun sales are a huge problem,'' he said.

What an ass we should encourage people to boycott his store. Pure self interest.

----------


## gimp

That guy is such a fuckwit

----------


## Krameranzac

I doubt the anonymous dealer will remain anonymous for long.

----------


## 308

Cui Bono

Firearms retailers are getting undercut by online-only stores which have been proliferating of late and suddenly Hey Presto! Look over here folks! These people are dangerous! Don't let people import their own parts and save money!
There's a dollar or two at the bottom of this dungpile someplace..

Why do I get the feeling that someone is pissing in my pocket and telling me it's raining?

----------


## tommygun

I work at McCarthys and overheard that interview. In the interest of keeping my job I won't talk about my own opinions here, but bear in mind how the media like to spin things. After the online threat regarding the Otago University a journalist from the ODT came and asked me some questions at work about obtaining a pistol and here is the article that resulted 'Good chance' of tracing threat | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News
What I tried to explain was that pistols can be owned in NZ, but will be held under a C or B license. That anyone with a firearms license could buy ammunition that a handgun might be chambered for, which makes sense as many pistols are chambered in calibres that rifles also take, e.g. .22lr. I said each handgun is registered under the name of the owner, and (In theory) the police know exactly which handgun is owned by which licensed owner, however they obviously couldn't keep track of ones that were already owned illegally or ones smuggled into the country e.g. in a boat.
This is how she interpreted it:  

"A Dunedin hunting and fishing store employee, who asked to remain anonymous, said the handgun posted with the threat online could be bought in New Zealand by a category C licence holder.

Bullets for the gun could be used for most category A (sporting) guns, so it would not be clear what the bullets were being bought for, the employee said.

Police kept a close eye on who owned handguns and obtaining one was a lengthy process.

However, they could not track stolen or imported guns, he said."

----------


## marky123

Lesson learnt?

----------


## Beavis

Lesson being nobody in the shooting community should give any MSM outlet the opportunity to twist their words, as in tell them to get bent.

----------


## GravelBen

''Over the internet, or a mate talking to a mate down at the pub, nine times out of 10 they won't ask to see a gun licence."

I call bollocks on that one. Nearly every private firearm ad I've seen on the net says something like 'no licence no sale', and most sellers are well aware that if they get caught selling to someone without a licence they'd probably lose theirs.

As for private sales being 'a huge problem', they might be a problem to his profit margin but thats about all.

----------


## tommygun

Yeah, I don't think I'll be speaking to them again.

----------


## shift14

> Lesson learnt?


Yep, say nothing and nothing gets said.

B

----------


## kotuku

> I work at McCarthys and overheard that interview. In the interest of keeping my job I won't talk about my own opinions here, but bear in mind how the media like to spin things. After the online threat regarding the Otago University a journalist from the ODT came and asked me some questions at work about obtaining a pistol and here is the article that resulted 'Good chance' of tracing threat | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News
> What I tried to explain was that pistols can be owned in NZ, but will be held under a C or B license. That anyone with a firearms license could buy ammunition that a handgun might be chambered for, which makes sense as many pistols are chambered in calibres that rifles also take, e.g. .22lr. I said each handgun is registered under the name of the owner, and (In theory) the police know exactly which handgun is owned by which licensed owner, however they obviously couldn't keep track of ones that were already owned illegally or ones smuggled into the country e.g. in a boat.
> This is how she interpreted it:  
> 
> "A Dunedin hunting and fishing store employee, who asked to remain anonymous, said the handgun posted with the threat online could be bought in New Zealand by a category C licence holder.
> 
> Bullets for the gun could be used for most category A (sporting) guns, so it would not be clear what the bullets were being bought for, the employee said.
> 
> Police kept a close eye on who owned handguns and obtaining one was a lengthy process.
> ...


thanks tommygun -you've just confirmed what I thought &wrote.

----------


## bully

5 kids a year are run over while backing out the driveway. 
Vs 28 hunters killed in 20 years. 
For those that want to save the world.... go jump on that band wagon!

----------


## Krameranzac

The reporters email if anyone wishes to point out that our anonymous friends ommited some facts in their interview.

e.aingeroy@gmail.com

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## kotuku

> The reporters email if anyone wishes to point out that our anonymous friends ommited some facts in their interview.
> 
> e.aingeroy@gmail.com


 I wouldnt waste my time.if she cant get it right first time or was after the ratings primarily.an email from us aint gonna make an iota of difference IMO.

----------


## Sideshow

> I work at McCarthys and overheard that interview. In the interest of keeping my job I won't talk about my own opinions here, but bear in mind how the media like to spin things. After the online threat regarding the Otago University a journalist from the ODT came and asked me some questions at work about obtaining a pistol and here is the article that resulted 'Good chance' of tracing threat | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News
> What I tried to explain was that pistols can be owned in NZ, but will be held under a C or B license. That anyone with a firearms license could buy ammunition that a handgun might be chambered for, which makes sense as many pistols are chambered in calibres that rifles also take, e.g. .22lr. I said each handgun is registered under the name of the owner, and (In theory) the police know exactly which handgun is owned by which licensed owner, however they obviously couldn't keep track of ones that were already owned illegally or ones smuggled into the country e.g. in a boat.
> This is how she interpreted it:  
> 
> "A Dunedin hunting and fishing store employee, who asked to remain anonymous, said the handgun posted with the threat online could be bought in New Zealand by a category C licence holder.
> 
> Bullets for the gun could be used for most category A (sporting) guns, so it would not be clear what the bullets were being bought for, the employee said.
> 
> Police kept a close eye on who owned handguns and obtaining one was a lengthy process.
> ...


I'd talk to any journalist, but I'd be asking to read the article before it goes to print to make sure that I have not been quoted out of context!
My wife is a racing journalist. When talking to horse owners, trainers she quite often has to do this.
What your seeing there is a very poor form of journalism.
The other thing I'd do is make an appointment with the journalist who wants to talk to you. Also record what is being said.
As I'm sure that you where recorded. 
It's also down to what the editor wants in the paper. 
Over here you generally get paid by the word. But this need to fill a limited space.
So if the interviewed gave a long winded answer then there going to cut it short.
A lot of journalist won't agree to letting you read the article but then you don't have to agree to talking to them!!

----------


## timattalon

> And again... Private gun sales 'thriving' | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News
> 
> ^this cunt


here's another question WTF is this title
"_The National Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies chairman and director_ " 

Sounds like a jumped up self important ego trip. Last time I heard of a director also being chairman and there being both positions it was a business with one employee- The director , chairman was also the lackey, coffee maker and shipping clerk too. I am in a business here too, I am the director of internet sales and advertising, and Chief financial officer of the entire online division.  I am also the shipping manager, packaging supervisor, and head of the communications dept and payroll officer. So does that mean I have a bigger _ _ _ _ than he does. (Wage for all you rude minded individuals.... :Have A Nice Day: ) 

No. It means everything is my responsibility and there is no one else to blame.

As for Peace and conflict centre chairman , sounds like a PC jargon for anger management therapy person who takes bookings for the next session......

----------


## steven

> And again... Private gun sales 'thriving' | Otago Daily Times Online News : Otago, South Island, New Zealand & International News
> 
> ^this cunt


"because of the rural make-up of the community,"

So you country folk are dis-honest bastards, there I knew it all along.

absolute bull cr*p.

and then this,

"Over the internet, or a mate talking to a mate down at the pub, nine times out of 10 they won't ask to see a gun licence"

So a vested interest, selling an un-supportable point of view.

His business should be boycotted IMHO, if he thinks gun owners are this bad, dont give him business.

----------


## steven

> I wouldnt waste my time.if she cant get it right first time or was after the ratings primarily.an email from us aint gonna make an iota of difference IMO.


Yes but write to the paper.

----------


## steven

> here's another question WTF is this title
> "_The National Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies chairman and director_ " 
> 
> Sounds like a jumped up self important ego trip. 
> 
> 8><---


Yes this academic has had an agenda as an anti-gunner for years.  In his case no matter the evidence the answer is get rid of guns.  The good thing is he has a tendency to say things that cannot be substantiated.

What I am going to do is collect articles from when he says something and keep it as evidence with replies based on data and research.

ie in a court of law a good lawyer would rip him apart. ie when he says "could" he cant prove it so its not a fact/evidence.

----------


## timattalon

> "because of the rural make-up of the community,"
> 
> So you country folk are dis-honest bastards, there I knew it all along.
> 
> absolute bull cr*p.
> 
> and then this,
> 
> "Over the internet, or a mate talking to a mate down at the pub, nine times out of 10 they won't ask to see a gun licence"
> ...


As long as this is what he said. Dont forget the Media never lets the truth get in the way of a story. 

Remember Heather D P A was told it there was a chance that an error could slip though and not be spotted and then Duncan went on to say later that the person said it was very likely never going to be picked up. These are not quotes and one is definitely not a quote of the other.

So it is possible the shop owner could have said something along the lines of "if anyone wanted to buy an illegal firearm, they are more likely to do this down at a pub face to face where there is no ability to track the transaction" and a reporter would repeat this as "all trades down at the pub are not tracked and are illegal" to make it sound more dramatic. (and wrong of course)

Is anyone on here working at or involved with that gun shop? Perhaps get him to answer in person on this thread and see what he actually said. I dont trust the media to get it right as I have not seen that happen much for a very long time.

----------


## Cyclops

> I would think it very very rare for someone in New Zealand to apply for their license who has not had previous experience with firearms. and by experience I mean has at least fired a gun of some sort. most people applying for a FAL would probably have mates or family who are interested in shooting and from whom they caught the bug.


Well by that definition I must be a very rare person.

My - then - 14 year old took up fullbore target shooting as his sporting hobby.
In order for him to have a rifle to use exclusively I had to get a Firearms License which I did.
I had no previous firearms experience and no particular interest in shooting myself. 

To own a firearm and ammunition I obtained my FAL, then a rifle, then began reloading for my son. 

We're onto our third rifle now for fullbore target shooting - this time a specialised target rifle built up from components.

----------


## Kscott

> Lesson being nobody in the shooting community should give any MSM outlet the opportunity to twist their words, as in tell them to get bent.


Also bear in mind emotive "they should be shot" posts, on a public forum that is read by anyone isn't helping either. 

It re-enforces the stereotype that shooters are crazy people.

----------


## kotuku

perhaps our friend Professor Clements may also share his opinion on the fact that his employers Otago university have twice featured in crime stats with academics being found guilty of murder -to wit psychiatrist          Dr Colin Bouwer (whose son is banged up in Sth africa for the identical crime)and last but not least the hideous reptile Clayton "chucky"Weatherston. 
This peace studies crap flourished under Jim Andertons mob ,the onerous highlight being when dopey Matt Robson minister. disarmament sent that ginga "anti "wally Professor Philip Alpers to a UN disarmament conference,which in itself was a bloody shambles 
.two week talk fest -two line statement saying nothing could be agreed on .half the parties knew nowt about the agenda ,the other half didnt even know where the dunnies where !
 Alpers incidentally is resident in a sydney varsity!
 Alpers-former "fairgo "reporter  had also authored some research along with  his aussie mate .This however was peer reviewed by Prof Gary Mauser of simon Fraser university in Canada(who does know what hes talking about)and found to be defective in virtually every aspect. So bloody much for legislators relying on this info to draw up sound reasonable laws!

 Any wee MSM reporter who comes near me will be met with 'whose shaggin ya now luv and canI quote you on that"-see how they like getting crap printed about em!!

----------


## stretch

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## tommygun

> Is anyone on here working at or involved with that gun shop? Perhaps get him to answer in person on this thread and see what he actually said. I dont trust the media to get it right as I have not seen that happen much for a very long time.


I do, but I doubt Selwyn would remember the phrasing he used and if it differed from how it was reported. From what I heard, the reporter probably just repeated some of the more negative things he said and left out the rest. When she was about to leave she asked if there was anyone else in the Dunedin firearms scene who she could talk to for another opinion. I gave her the number of a very talkative local advocate, who has written books on the statistics behind firearms in NZ. If she did bother to interview him too, she certainly doesn't seem to have included any of it. Maybe he used words with more than three syllables. Maybe his point of view didn't fit in with what she was trying say.

----------


## 7x64

> I do, but I doubt Selwyn would remember the phrasing he used and if it differed from how it was reported. From what I heard, the reporter probably just repeated some of the more negative things he said and left out the rest. When she was about to leave she asked if there was anyone else in the Dunedin firearms scene who she could talk to for another opinion. I gave her the number of a very talkative local advocate, who has written books on the statistics behind firearms in NZ. If she did bother to interview him too, she certainly doesn't seem to have included any of it. Maybe he used words with more than three syllables. Maybe his point of view didn't fit in with what she was trying say.


Might be in your bosses' best interest to clarify either here or somewhere else in public - taking what's out there at the moment I will be giving McCarthy's a wide berth in future, and likely not the only one. Usually made a point of dropping in there when in Dunedin...

----------


## Krameranzac

O


> perhaps our friend Professor Clements may also share his opinion on the fact that his employers Otago university have twice featured in crime stats with academics being found guilty of murder -to wit psychiatrist          Dr Colin Bouwer (whose son is banged up in Sth africa for the identical crime)and last but not least the hideous reptile Clayton "chucky"Weatherston. 
> This peace studies crap flourished under Jim Andertons mob ,the onerous highlight being when dopey Matt Robson minister. disarmament sent that ginga "anti "wally Professor Philip Alpers to a UN disarmament conference,which in itself was a bloody shambles 
> .two week talk fest -two line statement saying nothing could be agreed on .half the parties knew nowt about the agenda ,the other half didnt even know where the dunnies where !
>  Alpers incidentally is resident in a sydney varsity!
>  Alpers-former "fairgo "reporter  had also authored some research along with  his aussie mate .This however was peer reviewed by Prof Gary Mauser of simon Fraser university in Canada(who does know what hes talking about)and found to be defective in virtually every aspect. So bloody much for legislators relying on this info to draw up sound reasonable laws!
> 
>  Any wee MSM reporter who comes near me will be met with 'whose shaggin ya now luv and canI quote you on that"-see how they like getting crap printed about em!!


I enjoy writing to Otago uni and asking why they continue to let Kevin embarrass them with his drivel. I know a few other people do too.

----------


## kotuku

this common referral to pet academics is in reality a sign of bloody laziness on the reporters part -ie Cant be assed getting into gear and googling or scouting for fresh perspective,so will just ring my mate or the papers pet expert .not worried they trot the same line of drivel out repeatedly cause varsities are encouraged to be bastions of free expression and no one will contradict an academic.

----------


## Kscott

Family history boosts interest in World War I at New Plymouth gun show | Stuff.co.nz

----------


## timattalon

> Well by that definition I must be a very rare person.
> 
> My - then - 14 year old took up fullbore target shooting as his sporting hobby.
> In order for him to have a rifle to use exclusively I had to get a Firearms License which I did.
> I had no previous firearms experience and no particular interest in shooting myself. 
> 
> To own a firearm and ammunition I obtained my FAL, then a rifle, then began reloading for my son. 
> 
> We're onto our third rifle now for fullbore target shooting - this time a specialised target rifle built up from components.


You may be rare, but welcome none the less. I know of many parents who would go to the same lengths for their kids, but I also know there are many parents out there who would not do the same. Good on you for getting involved.

----------


## tommygun

Clements is a fear-mongering nut-job. Welcome to the gun show | Features | Critic Te Arohi

----------


## tommygun

I like the part where he suggests Dunedin's weather makes people want to shoot each other. You can't make this stuff up.

----------


## GravelBen

> Clements is a fear-mongering nut-job. Welcome to the gun show | Features | Critic Te Arohi


I'm guessing you didn't go to Otago uni or you'd already know to ignore anything printed in the load of bleating drivel that is the critic magazine.

----------


## Tommy

> I like the part where he suggests Dunedin's weather makes people want to shoot each other. You can't make this stuff up.


Is that why David Bain didn't like his paper run?

----------


## tommygun

> I'm guessing you didn't go to Otago uni or you'd already know to ignore anything printed in the load of bleating drivel that is the critic magazine.


As a student I should know better, but I had seen the cover of that issue when it was printed and was curious as to what they were going to say. I wasn't at all surprised.

----------


## 300CALMAN

Duncan Greive: Swapping news for reality - looking back on a bad year for TV3

How Sad

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## GravelBen

> As a student I should know better, but I had seen the cover of that issue when it was printed and was curious as to what they were going to say. I wasn't at all surprised.


I graduated in 2007, it obviously hasn't got any better since then!

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## Beavis

Nationally, Clements believes one positive step would be to require gun owners to register their guns. “We also need to have much more proactive mechanisms to ensure the police keep guns out of the hands of those who might use them for nefarious purposes. Police also need to be more vigilant in ensuring that weapons do not fall into the hands of those with protection orders against them. For example, in the recent Saint Leonard’s shootings, Livingstone had a protection order against him and shouldn’t have had access to guns. There should have been much closer monitoring of their availability for him.” My 

My question is how registration would theoretically prevent and unhinged individual from shooting people? Will they say, before shooting people, then blowing their brains out, "I better not do this because they know I have this"? In the case pointed out above, the gun was stolen, and easily traced back to the owner, without registration. I doubt he would have taken it in to get registered before he went to kill his kids. So the good professor is talking absolute shit. No surprises, it's his profession after all. 

In terms of what the University could do, Clements believes actively declaring the Campus gun-free would be a step in the right direction: “Just like a smoke-free environment I think it would be good for the University to declare this a gun-free environment.

This comment would be hilarious if the subject matter wasn't so grave. How many gun free zones in the USA have been shot up? I don't even really know what to say to this idiocy. It offends me that this "man" actually gets paid to be some kind of teacher. He just sounds like a butt hurt beta male. The left wing is a very bizarre place.

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## GravelBen

What kind of bizarre fantasy world is he living in that declaring Otago Uni "gun-free" would make any difference to anything? Nobody wanders around the campus carrying a gun anyway.

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## Tommy

> What kind of bizarre fantasy world is he living in that declaring Otago Uni "gun-free" would make any difference to anything? Nobody wanders around the campus carrying a gun anyway.


Socialists are big on pointless gestures.

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## 300CALMAN

Wounder if Gooner and HDA are worried about their jobs?

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## dskd

Krameranzac 
"I doubt the anonymous dealer will remain anonymous for long."

I can help you with that it wasn't taieri arms as i would never give media any crap like that to work with , that only leaves two stores and I could be wrong but one store owner is on hoilday

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## steven

> 8><-----
> 
> The left wing is a very bizarre place.]


Oi! I am a greenie voting leftie type person so go take a running jump.  

 :Psmiley: 

What you are really commenting on is the likes of Clements who sit out on one of the extremes IMHO. They exist on both sides and both want to influence/control the moderate majority for their own ends.

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## Dangerous Dan

> Clements is a fear-mongering nut-job. Welcome to the gun show | Features | Critic Te Arohi


This is meant to be satire?

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## kotuku

> Oi! I am a greenie voting leftie type person so go take a running jump.  
> 
> 
> 
> What you are really commenting on is the likes of Clements who sit out on one of the extremes IMHO. They exist on both sides and both want to influence/control the moderate majority for their own ends.


how ironic given your mission statement at the bottom :Wtfsmilie:  -as far Im aware  in 6+decades in this wart on the arse of the planet earth labelled New zealand ,the elected administration -to wit the government  :Psmiley: were for ALL no just MY. :Redbullsmiley:  if you did not vote for them -a consideration based on your declaring your left wing opining then your use of the adjective MY is pure hyperbole and a myth! :Sick: 
 i find pendantics very erotic -dont you :Thumbsup:

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## Rushy

My word you are a walking talking Dick and Harry (dictionary) Kotuku

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## steven

> how ironic given your mission statement at the bottom -as far Im aware  in 6+decades in this wart on the arse of the planet earth labelled New zealand ,the elected administration -to wit the government were for ALL no just MY. if you did not vote for them -a consideration based on your declaring your left wing opining then your use of the adjective MY is pure hyperbole and a myth!
>  i find pendantics very erotic -dont you


I dont think I can make a worthy reply, LOL.

 :Thumbsup:

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