# Hunting > The Magazine >  Subsonic 308 project

## Clubbie

Hey everyone!
I've been on a bit of a journey to create a subsonic load for my 308 Bushpig.
Mainly to protect the hearing of my indicating dog.
It's been a heap of fun with some great learning along the way.

I've made a series of videos from load development to hunting various species.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...iZXGwajUZ62Z9l

I hope you enjoy!

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## viper

I have just been given a nice Remington 788 in 308 so will watch the series with interest.

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## Mooseman

> I have just been given a nice Remington 788 in 308 so will watch the series with interest.


You would be a lucky bugger, those 788's are usually very good shooters. Had one in 222 many years back when I started culling goats and it was a tack driver.

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## KiwiinSeattle

> Hey everyone!
> I've been on a bit of a journey to create a subsonic load for my 308 Bushpig.
> Mainly to protect the hearing of my indicating dog.
> It's been a heap of fun with some great learning along the way.
> 
> I've made a series of videos from load development to hunting various species.
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...iZXGwajUZ62Z9l
> 
> I hope you enjoy!


Great videos !

What is the barrel length and twist rate of your rifle - .308 subsonic ?

Thanks

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## Preacher

I'm thinking of attempting to do similar with a Baikal in 7.62x39.  Need to equip the loading bench first.  Also, loving the vids dude.

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## viper

@Clubbie, just watched them all, awesome mate and I picked up some useful info. Cheers and keep making the odd video .

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## aetchell

I use 7mm-08 subsonics and I've had a play with .308 too. Really fun to shoot.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Stocky

Have you managed to recover a projectile. I haves seen any recovered 200 grain subs from @shooternz. I have a bunch but thinking of trying some 194 Lehighs out as a premium subsonic round for bigger game.

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## Sparrow

I have a box of Belmont 220gr subs in .308 keen to try them for goats any thing I should worry about? rifle is 1:8 twist

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## Clubbie

> I have a box of Belmont 220gr subs in .308 keen to try them for goats any thing I should worry about? rifle is 1:8 twist


I think you'll be fine.  They will probably exit, but they'll still expand.
Pay attention to shot placement.  Goats will absolutely be no problem.

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## Clubbie

> Great videos !
> 
> What is the barrel length and twist rate of your rifle - .308 subsonic ?
> 
> Thanks


Thanks for your support!
 The twist is 1:12 (so I'm rapt these short heavy projectiles stabilise)
 The barrel is 15"

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## Clubbie

> Have you managed to recover a projectile. I haves seen any recovered 200 grain subs from @shooternz. I have a bunch but thinking of trying some 194 Lehighs out as a premium subsonic round for bigger game.


Not yet, they've all exited. TBH I'd be inclined to go Lehigh for big game...but on the other hand, if it's your bush gun you're shooting them at very close range anyway.
 I'm yet to have the opportunity with a red at close range with this rifle.
 So you have the $3 vs 40c debate, but also the ethics of a clean kill, so I'm looking forward to seeing what they do to answer the ethics question.

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## Stocky

Yeh @Clubbie. But the cost of developing a load for the Lehigh I'd say is at least $60 of projectiles. Plus the casts I have I'd happily shoot a hare or rabbit for a feed while hunting which is likely the most common use id have for the subs. My "bush gun" took a chammy at 420 a few weeks ago before I came to aus. It's pretty similar a 308 Single shot. But I have the 1 in 8 twist so should stabilise the Lehighs. Expensive exercise though! 

Sent from my SM-A320Y using Tapatalk

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## Clubbie

> Yeh @Clubbie. But the cost of developing a load for the Lehigh I'd say is at least $60 of projectiles. Plus the casts I have I'd happily shoot a hare or rabbit for a feed while hunting which is likely the most common use id have for the subs. My "bush gun" took a chammy at 420 a few weeks ago before I came to aus. It's pretty similar a 308 Single shot. But I have the 1 in 8 twist so should stabilise the Lehighs. Expensive exercise though! 
> 
> Sent from my SM-A320Y using Tapatalk


Yep, I hear ya!  Reloading can get pretty addictive (and expensive as you tune the load).  I agree with the shooting of other stuff with the casts too - I'm not even slightly worried about shooting a goat, or a hare or a rabbit, because it's not a fancy $3 projectile.
Then again, $3 for a feed is still cheap as chips too  :Thumbsup:

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## Cordite

Great videos. Thanks for your time in putting it all together.

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## Flyblown

> Not yet, they've all exited. TBH I'd be inclined to go Lehigh for big game...but on the other hand, if it's your bush gun you're shooting them at very close range anyway.
>  I'm yet to have the opportunity with a red at close range with this rifle.
>  So you have the $3 vs 40c debate, but also the ethics of a clean kill, so I'm looking forward to seeing what they do to answer the ethics question.


An enjoyable watch.

I’d actually found you and subscribed before you pitched up here cos I was searching 308 subsonic recently, as it is my next project. A suggestion that would be helpful for me is next time would you be able to show us the wound channel, entry and exit wounds? Its a wee while since I watched the vids, don’t think you covered that?

Regarding the Lehigh question, have read up a shit load on this subsonic business and concluded that we can spend up big on components, and still very easily put the bullet in the wrong place. Won’t matter a damn whether its one bullet or the other in that situation! I love the design and reputation of the Lehigh. But I reckon with our soft deer and the use of subsonics, the “ethics” question is better answered by practice, detailed knowledge of your ballistics and deer anatomy, and then more practice, much more than it is by which bullet you use (within reason)... Just my take. I’ll be trying @shooternz’s cast bullets, and regular hunting bullets that will readily tumble.

(Basically I really don’t like the whole “ethical kill” thing, as responsible hunters I think our ethics are sound from the get go... when you look at the dictionary definition of the word. If you’re a moron being moronic as unfortunately I come across from time to time then that’s where ethics should be discussed cos those wankers dig a big whole for the rest of us to fall into whether we like it or not. Anyway I’ll shut up.)

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## flock

I've played with this to, tried 200g casts lead at 25y they keyholed  / 11 twist not enough  / so 150s better but hard to keep subsonic, got a bit concerned about lead fouling; so I tried 175 flat point 30-30 type projectiles and they worked well out to 50 metres. Was a ridiculous amount of trail boss about 8g or so. Tried drilling the flash holes but didn't find a huge advantage, used magnum primers and that  seemed to do the trick. Loverly to use, so soft and quiet.

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## Clubbie

> Great videos. Thanks for your time in putting it all together.


Thanks so much for your support  :Thumbsup:

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## N&B

Great videos Clubbie, I've watched nearly all of them. I recently did the HUNTS course, so always looking for new stuff to learn so I can get out there at some stage and also take my 8 year old son who's dead keen.

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## Clubbie

> Great videos Clubbie, I've watched nearly all of them. I recently did the HUNTS course, so always looking for new stuff to learn so I can get out there at some stage and also take my 8 year old son who's dead keen.


Awesome mate, thats what its all about- making memories with the kids on adventures!

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## Flyblown

So thanks to @Clubbie for the motivation to get onto this...8gr of Trail Boss, 165gr Sierra Gameking. ES of 9fps, average velocity of 1010fps, into a 0.6" group at 50m. I've run out of projectiles so will pull some old rounds I'll never use, and load up 20 cartridges for a bigger test and therefore better stats, but pretty stoked with the initial results.









I'm likely to stick with traditional hunting bullets with some modifications to the nose, and rely on tumbling for the wound channel.

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## Nugget connaisseur

Awesome, i have a bunch to try in the weekend, i have done a ladder test with one round per load, going down in 0.5 grains per round to find subsonic velocity then will go home and load up for groups. i have 150 gr. 180 gr round nose and 208 gr eldm but i doubt the eldm will be stable.
150s are reasonably close to 50% case capacity around where im expecting them to be subsonic. So ill probably try to use a 165-180gr projectile to increase the fill volume.

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## A330driver

Hearing protection for dogs.....just a thought 

-

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## Flyblown

I have about as much chance getting my dog to wear that, as he does getting me to wear a tweed Deer Stalker hat and plus fours.

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## A330driver

Just taking the piss mate.......wasn’t serious

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## Flyblown

Probably a completely daft question, but has anyone considered or even tried these bullets in a subsonic Blackout / .308 Win?

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifl...hort-jacket#!/

Hornady Short Jacket

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## Micky Duck

looked at those plinkers,then decided there is no way in hell they could be any better than shootersnzs 151s   they wont expand more and have less weight so wont penertrate as far if hit bone... on side note the 200grn jobbies he makes work fine in my .308 but I will need to drop below 10grns TB as they still pretty loud.....goes to show every rifle is different.

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## Flyblown

Yeah scratch that Hornady bullet off the list, contacted the seller and he told me they got down to very low powder charges (Trail Boss) to get them subsonic, too low, and they didn’t like it, so stopped. Minimum velocity they felt was safe was 1500fps, and they expanded well enough.

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## shooternz

You need a HP to expand lead bullets at subsonic velocity the solid versions of mine will expand at 1400fps and they are as soft as I can get them and still cast properly,

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## Flyblown

I got hold of some of Robert's (@shooternz) 151gr cast lead bullets and gave them a whirl this morning. Here's the outcome. 

I started at 9gr of Trail Boss and was at 1200fps. So I dropped the loads down in 0.5gr increments until I dropped below the sound barrier, and then by 0.2gr to make sure. So I settled on 7.8gr of Trail Boss and made up five rounds. 

The first cartridge I over did the seating depth, so I gave it some taps with the puller and long story short buggered it up a bit. The neck tension would have been looser than it would have with one clean pass through the seating die, and the bullet was a bit deformed by the time I'd finished. In the image below, its the one off to the bottom right.

Shot #1: 1070fps
Shot #2: 1081fps
Shot #3: 1081fps
Shot #4: 1089fps
Shot #5: 1085fps

Shots 2-5 had all gone in a tight little group so I went back to the shed and made up one more for a five shot group, all at the same seating depth with no buggering around. 

Shot #6: 1089fps

Very happy with the outcome, 0.44MOA at 50yds (cheating, by leaving out the buggered bullet). Yes, there are 5 shots in those two touching holes. I think there's actually four shots in one hole, hard to tell. 

Low ES, low SD. Can't ask for more than that. Definitely suggests that you have to be careful with neck tension. Considering its blowing a bloody gale here today, not too shabby for handmade bullet with a massive meplat. 

The point of aim was the bullseye above the groups, the rifle is zeroed for my GameKing supersonic load. Wind was gusting strongly from about 8 o'clock.

Looking forward to getting back onto the goats with these subsonics.

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## Flyblown

Sorry @Clubbie for hijacking your thread. Too late now  :Thumbsup: .

Nothing else for it, it was time to kill some plastic and water and do a little test. So having learnt lots from YouTube, we set up our experiment. We shot a .308 151gr cast lead bullet at 1085fps from 50 yards and wondered what would happen next. 




We can even do slo mo, very advanced we are.  




The 151gr cast lead bullet made it into the fifth milk bottle. We were well pleased to retrieve the bullet in a perfectly formed mushroom. 





The diameter of the mushroom is 0.566" at its widest, and 0.522" at its narrowest.





Fair to say then that these bullets do what they say on the packet. Would have no hesitation shooting these into the shoulder of close range medium deer and goats.

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## shooternz

Well that is the best mushroom so far, Can I put that video on my listing Flyblown?
For those that keep asking no the gas checks do not come off this proves it.

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## Flyblown

No problem @shooternz. I’ve got another short video of the bullet coming out of the milk bottle too but the GoPro went flat and one of my fool sons had hidden the charger and usb cables. But I watched it just now. Will upload it later and send you the link.

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## wsm junkie

This makes me want to buy a 308 :Cool:

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## Micky Duck

this retrieved from pot we cooked neck chops in,head shot sheep at 30ish yards.

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## shooternz

> This makes me want to buy a 308


Every body should have a .308 one of the most useful calibres there is, If I could only have one rifle it would be a .308
can be loaded from pip-squeak can killer to deerslayer

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## Cordite

> Every body should have a .308 one of the most useful calibres there is, If I could only have one rifle it would be a .308
> can be loaded from pip-squeak can killer to deerslayer


Or a.303 as you make 204 grain hollow points for those.  Just about to order some.

Btw, your 7mm 133 grain HPs - are you set up to swage them to 6.7mm for a 6.5 Arisaka/Swede?

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## Micky Duck

oih Cordite get in line....he has to swag them down to 6.8 first so they can be used in the mighty poohseventy LOL

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## shooternz

> Or a.303 as you make 204 grain hollow points for those.  Just about to order some.
> 
> Btw, your 7mm 133 grain HPs - are you set up to swage them to 6.7mm for a 6.5 Arisaka/Swede?


No but I may buy a 6.5 140 grain mould designed for the 6.5 Creedmoor, the 7mm is considered marginal for hunting with cast bullets mainly because the twist rate 
is to fast for cast lead the high rotational speed stuffs up the internal structure of the bullet and basically it turns into plastic and it flops about, Very hard bullets
can be shot at high velocity but they are too hard to expand, 
There is a test done buy a guy with a 7mmBR reached 3000 fps with a 110 grain cast bullet with a 12"
twist the bullet was mostly Linotype which will shatter rather than expand, He was actually testing bullet the good news the best lube from his test was the one I use 
so the lube is up to the job, .30 cal and above are the choice for cast bullet performance

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## Shootm

@Clubbie where are you buying your trail boss from?
I’m in the Manawatu and interested in developing a load for my 308. 
Like your video clips and can see this getting an addictive project.

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## Clubbie

> @Clubbie where are you buying your trail boss from?
> I’m in the Manawatu and interested in developing a load for my 308. 
> Like your video clips and can see this getting an addictive project.


Heya, thanks for watching, I appreciate the support :-)
I had to really shop around as nobody really freights the powder anymore.

I ended up buying 2.5Kg from H&F - which is enough for about 3,500 rounds! 
I think Dead Eye Dicks had some too, down in Levin.

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## Shootm

> Heya, thanks for watching, I appreciate the support :-)
> I had to really shop around as nobody really freights the powder anymore.
> 
> I ended up buying 2.5Kg from H&F - which is enough for about 3,500 rounds! 
> I think Dead Eye Dicks had some too, down in Levin.


I rang H&F yesterday and they were sold out.
I’ll have to try DED today.

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## Clubbie

> I rang H&F yesterday and they were sold out.
> I’ll have to try DED today.


Let me know if you get stuck.... I really don't need all 2.5Kg!! I'll hook you up.

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## Cooper

Any more info on loading these? I am also playing with the cast bullets, last week I tried a few 200gr with 10gr of trail boss, 66mm COAL and a 3mm drilled flash hole and some federal magnum primers and they shot around 1150fps with 2 a bit higher, looked like one keyholed on target.
Rifle is a 16in barrel Tikka.
At 66mm chambering a round in my rifle is still swaging rifling marks in the bullet however I shortened it up so it is still easy to chamber. Interested in what OAL everyone is using?
Is anyone using any fillers or having issues with inconsistent velocity?

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## Flyblown

@Cooper I assume it is a .308?

If so, then sounds like the 1:11” twist is not fast enough to stabilise the longer 200gr bullet.
 @shooternz’s 151gr bullets are specifically designed for .308.

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## shooternz

> Any more info on loading these? I am also playing with the cast bullets, last week I tried a few 200gr with 10gr of trail boss, 66mm COAL and a 3mm drilled flash hole and some federal magnum primers and they shot around 1150fps with 2 a bit higher, looked like one keyholed on target.
> Rifle is a 16in barrel Tikka.
> At 66mm chambering a round in my rifle is still swaging rifling marks in the bullet however I shortened it up so it is still easy to chamber. Interested in what OAL everyone is using?
> Is anyone using any fillers or having issues with inconsistent velocity?


Stop drilling out flash holes and there is no need for Magnum primers you are not tried to ignite coal, If standard primers will ignite 46.00 grains of 2206H why won't they 
work with Trail Boss that is even easier to ignite,
Give your barrel a good clean any copper in there will cause lead fouling, the 11" twist will stabilise the 200 Grain but try the 151HP that works in any .30 cal.

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## Cordite

> Any more info on loading these? I am also playing with the cast bullets, last week I tried a few 200gr with 10gr of trail boss, 66mm COAL and a 3mm drilled flash hole and some federal magnum primers and they shot around 1150fps with 2 a bit higher, looked like one keyholed on target.
> Rifle is a 16in barrel Tikka.
> At 66mm chambering a round in my rifle is still swaging rifling marks in the bullet however I shortened it up so it is still easy to chamber. Interested in what OAL everyone is using?
> Is anyone using any fillers or having issues with inconsistent velocity?


...and don't use fillers with Trail Boss as it's not position sensitive.  Does not have to be stuffed back up against the primer hole.

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## KiwiinSeattle

Has anyone tried these Winchester Super Suppressed - $60 / per box of 20 at the usual places.

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## Micky Duck

why would you when its only for target work????? kind of a giant leap backwards wouldnt you think...

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## Cordite

They might be made for the military (the bullet although open tip is not designed to mushroom so "legal") and also sold to civilians who want to be very civil at the range -- maybe also sipping tea from a cup and saucer at the shooting bench while the barrel cools in between.

Someone somewhere will do a water jug experiment before and after annealing the tip, but I doubt it will do quite as well as HP soft lead boolits.

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## shooternz

Yes check my TM listings

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## KiwiinSeattle

> They might be made for the military (the bullet although open tip is not designed to mushroom so "legal") and also sold to civilians who want to be very civil at the range -- maybe also sipping tea from a cup and saucer at the shooting bench while the barrel cools in between.
> 
> Someone somewhere will do a water jug experiment before and after annealing the tip, but I doubt it will do quite as well as HP soft lead boolits.


Yes, it looks like this ammo uses Open Tip Match (OTM) projectiles and I'd be curious to see a water jug experiment !

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## Cordite

> Yes, it looks like this ammo uses Open Tip Match (OTM) projectiles and I'd be curious to see a water jug experiment !


They will not do well, beyond tumbling as spitzers do.  OTM is not the same as what gets sold as a "hollow point".  OTMs are not designed to expand, HPs are.

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## Cooper

> @Cooper I assume it is a .308?
> 
> If so, then sounds like the 1:11 twist is not fast enough to stabilise the longer 200gr bullet.
>  @shooternzs 151gr bullets are specifically designed for .308.


Yes, is a 308, my barrel was pretty filthy after that, wasn't that clean to begin with.
I had a bag of the 151gr too but started with the 200gr going with the theory of bigger is better.
Used a standard primer and copied @Flyblown and loaded up some 151gr with 7.8gr of trailboss and had a chance to put them on paper and over the chronograph today and am happy with the results.
Will have another crack at loading the 200gr in the future

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## Shootm

I’d be happy with that. 
Just waiting for projectiles to turn up and I’ll be into it.

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## shooternz

> I’d be happy with that. 
> Just waiting for projectiles to turn up and I’ll be into it.


They are in the mail NZ Post #LD006896237NZ should see them Monday
sorry for the slow delivery I have been flat out since boxing day.

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## The bomb

What range is that group shot at?50 or 100? Nice group,

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## Cooper

> What range is that group shot at?50 or 100? Nice group,


Closer to 40, was more interested in velocity at the time.
I'm planning on testing them out to 100 just to see what they drop like vs my standard zero.

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## Micky Duck

probably ABOUT 8-12"

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## The bomb

My 151g cast subs drop 11-12in from 50 to 100m zero.

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## aetchell

Did some testing of the 150gr .308 casts today. We clocked them at an average of 1140fps and using algebra and and some magic we worked out the coefficient to be approx 0.15 

Drop was about 37inches at 188 yards.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Flyblown

> Did some testing of the 150gr .308 casts today. We clocked them at an average of 1140fps and using algebra and and some magic we worked out the coefficient to be approx 0.15 
> 
> Drop was about 37inches at 188 yards.


Handy info!

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## aetchell

> Handy info!


I think it needs a bit more tweaking and testing but it should help out anyone else trying to create charts. I personally wouldn't use them beyond 75 - 100yrds though

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## poodle

> Yep, I hear ya!  Reloading can get pretty addictive (and expensive as you tune the load).  I agree with the shooting of other stuff with the casts too - I'm not even slightly worried about shooting a goat, or a hare or a rabbit, because it's not a fancy $3 projectile.
> Then again, $3 for a feed is still cheap as chips too


$3 a shot to put holes in paper while developing a load starts to add up though...

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## Micky Duck

$15 per trial load....... to test....it depends on what you end game expectation is.....if you after a say 200 yard deer rifle  you realistically need to achieve betterthan 3"....MOST loads should do that without any real fuss or bother (I cant think of ANY load Ive made over the years other than one that was that bad...and I killed many wallabies with that load...retweaked it for a mate and its MOA in his rifle) you will pay more for petrol to get to your hunting area than you ever will on load testing with a single shot rifle.

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## poodle

:Have A Nice Day:  fair call.

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## Flyblown

Though I'd check out the subsonic 308s again on a recent trip. Did some drop tests to set up a new scope with BDC reticle. 

What I've found with the reloading is that a final crimp makes a _massive_ difference to accuracy. The uncrimped loads would go ok with perfectly acceptable accuracy, then you'd get one or two fliers that were way off. A bit of checking, and there's a few reloads in the batch where the neck tension is insufficient to hold the cast lead bullet, you can move the bullet with the thumb and forefinger. I experimented a bit with crimp strength and settled on a kind of "medium" crimp that firmly holds the bullet in place. 



Since then we've been pinging coke cans at 100m, and accuracy on goats has been more than good enough to put the bullet where it counts. 



Incidentally, on goats I have found that the best way to achieve a bang-flop kill is to wait (if you can) for the animal to be quartering away or towards, so that you get a raking shot across the chest cavity. If they are a smaller animal and broadside, you probably won't get the expansion for a super-quick kill and they'll run until they bleed out. Both of these were shot in the front chest while facing me, and they went down hard on the spot.

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## The bomb

Great info thanks,only ever had the balls to use my cast loads on small game..Just got expanding die and crimp die as well so looking forward to trying out the new and improved versions.

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## NewbieZAR

@shooternz do you know of many people using your 151 on reds and pigs? I currently load some 160gr Peregrine/Discreet ballistics copper bullets (same concept as the lehigh ones) as subs but be good to use some of your bullets especially under 100 yards but always concerned they wont penetrate enough for a big red or pig. I also currently use your 151's on goats and it works great.

I get great accuracy with the Peregrine/Discreet Ballistic bullets out to about 200 yards and they sure are deadly, but i only have a very limited supply which i only get to restock once a year when i go on holiday so would prefer a local bullet for the majority of shooting.

One thing with the 151's, they dont feed in my magazine, i have to single feed. Is this common or do i just have a shit rifle?

FYI, my drop for the 160gr copper bullets at 1050fps 2mills at 100m and 8 mills at 200m with a 50m zero if that of any use to anyone. the Mill reticle in the ATN sure is handy for this, as the internal ballistic calculator is junk, so i work it out on Applied Ballistics and then just holdover.

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## The bomb

The 151g cast don’t feed well in my A7 either I just single load.the 170g pointed non hollow point version do but don’t expand very much at sub speeds.

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