# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  Grouping problem 338LM

## redbang

Hi folks, got me a problem and am hoping someone can come up with a fix.
Brand new Savage 110 FCP in 338 LM, Sightron 8-32x56 shooting off a bipod and rear bag at 110yds. 285gr Hornady projectiles,H1000 working between 90-93grs, Norma brass.
Problem:- One shot jumps out of a group of 3 shots( by about 1-1 1/2") and sometimes its 2 shots jump out of a 5 shot group, the others shots are touching or pretty close.
I've checked all scope mounts, rail mounts, action screws and the free float is well clear. The powder loads are all exact, and round is concentric to within .001-.003.
Any and all comments welcome, cheers, Red  :Have A Nice Day:

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## R93

If everything is sweet that you can control then my guess would be she needs some attention in the bedding department.

Fire a couple groups again but on a cold barrel, say 5-10 mins between shots. If you get the roughly same pattern it will most likely be some action movment.

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## Herbmiester

Possibly bipod jump, make sure your technique is perfect, preload the bipod so that when it recoils it doesn't jump. Otherwise borrow a benchrest and do your accuracy testing there.

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## CreepingDeath

Sling stud hitting rear bag?

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## R93

> Sling stud hitting rear bag?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2




Whats your theory on this one sir?

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## CreepingDeath

> Whats your theory on this one sir?


Haha im ready to be shunned for this but aparantley the stud hitting the bag in a different way each time the rifles fired(especially heavy recoiling rifles) can alter poi. Now this isnt my theory but have two freinds that shoot f class and alot of long range who swear by this. 



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## R93

I fire oodles of rounds the same way.  I think it is worth looking at, not shunning as it may have a ton of merit. You see some BR shooters allow the rifle to freely recoil straight back by lying on top of the stock, not behind it.

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## Rich007

There is quite a bit of stuff that has been written about making sure rifles recoil in 'exactly' the same way each time. There was a really interesting article on here a while back about some guys in the US who used to shoot amazing groups in a great big building (static environment), they talked a about the way they held the rifle each time affecting group sizes.

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## ChrisF

I would check to see the brake is tight & shows no sign of getting in contact with the bullet .

It seems you have checked all screws etc , I would pull the bipod off and fire it off sandbags front & rear , and also use the free recoil style of shooting IT , BUT be aware that you may have large groups at 100 & at 500 they are much smaller moa relative , I think some times it takes the big pills a bit longer to settle down .
In a Sako TRG-41 , I found it was not that impressive at 100m ( approx 1 moa ) , but at 500 it was sub 0.4 moa ( 2.25 inche groups ) , just some thing to think about .

Later Chris

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## R93

I may be different to most, but I only allow the butt to rest against my shoulder and apply some cheek pressure, when lying prone. I do not load the bi-pod in any way if using one. I manipulate the trigger with fore finger and thumb pressure only. I never grasp the grip with my whole hand. I have a sling on my rifle and will remove it for load testing and such. I will remove the stud nxt time I am having a play and see if there is any difference. Cheers CD it may account for the rare wtf moments I get.

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## redbang

No sling stud on it, but take your point about keeping the bipod loaded the same each time. It's some thing I have to concentrate on, no doubt about that !

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## RUNAS

Its always a tough one this kind of thing,it really is.
I would double check things like bases,rings and action screws at the correct tourqe,while your there, check there is no oil or solvents under action or mating surfaces.

You may want to consider spikes on the bipod if you havent already,and while Im on Bipods, a little trick on the Harris's is to NIP up the thumb screw with a allen key.
If its not tight bipod will twist on the stock potentially "steering" the rifle under recoil,one shot wont make a difference, shooting groups without noticing it it may cause some unexpected and unexplained flyiers.

Also a slow rate of fire with the big boys helps too.

Hope this helps

RUNAS

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## yerimaginaryM8

I have read a few accounts of people tuning out fliers by adjusting seating depth and others that suggested that seating depth will only shrink or expand groups and not fix fliers. I don't know if it would help or not but if you have tried everything else might be worth a try..... Google seating depth and flyers and group and you will see what I mean. What happens if someone else shoots a group with your rifle? do they see the same thing?

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## redbang

Thats a good thought M8, I'll get someone else to do the biz and see what happens  :Thumbsup:

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## R93

You have 3 touching and 2 an 1" 1/2 away from the group yeah? Are the other 2 flyers close to each other RB?

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## redbang

These are some 3 and 5 shot groups. . .

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## R93

What order did the 5 shot groups fall RB? Are all groups shot without scope adjustment?

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## distant stalker

> What order did the 5 shot groups fall RB? Are all groups shot without scope adjustment?


I shouldn't laugh but that question is really going to rub salt in the wounds  :Thumbsup:  bit more head scratch
ing there red. I reckon it's the bipod mount but it's ok i have a spare spigot here we can drill into your stock....lol

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## R93

It was a serious question, sorry if it poses a problem. Not my intention at all.

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## distant stalker

> It was a serious question, sorry if it poses a problem. Not my intention at all.


Won't be real offence.I'm.just stirring him up lol

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## Kiwi Greg

Hi *Red* is the barrel getting "warm" before the third shot ?
Looks like it could be a bedding & or slight fouling "issue"
Getting someone else to shoot it might help.

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## faregame

May not relate to this issue, but this was a interesting read on group analysis

Shooting - Group diagnosis

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## Norway

Have you built a solid shooting position? The 338 can have a "longer push" and cause all sorts of problems. Lying straight behind the rifle works for me; nice vertical muzzle jump.

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## Towely

> Possibly bipod jump, make sure your technique is perfect, preload the bipod so that when it recoils it doesn't jump. Otherwise borrow a benchrest and do your accuracy testing there.



Mind my ignorance here but on all the slow motion shots i have ever seen of guns being fired i can clearly see the projectile and the gases have exited the barrel long before any sort of recoil happens. So is the issue with bipod jump more to do with the shooters stance and grip setup BEFORE they fire the round rather than AFTER the round has been sent?

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## ChrisF

Just saw the groups , vertical can be caused by the butt slipping against your shoulder , you could try some one else shoot your rifle to see IF you or the rifle has the issue .

Are you using Moly coated bullets ? , as they show a split group like that until fouled , they also require different technique in sizing after shooting.

You are no doubt aware that in the 338LM calibre , brass is critical , as the pressures are very high , most shooters get 8-10 reloads out of Lapua made brass in this cal , BUT only 1-2 reloads out of Norma made brass , as such that would suggest to me that the norma brass is not as tough , ie cannot handle the pressure as well , this may show up as losse primer pockets & inconsistant neck tension ? 

Later Chris

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## R93

What do you mean about different tecnique in sizing after firing, concerning moly Chris?

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## Towely

> Mind my ignorance here but on all the slow motion shots i have ever seen of guns being fired i can clearly see the projectile and the gases have exited the barrel long before any sort of recoil happens. So is the issue with bipod jump more to do with the shooters stance and grip setup BEFORE they fire the round rather than AFTER the round has been sent?



Thanks to the lack of an edit button my badly worded post is doomed to stay..

So heres goes again.

Once the round has left the barrel (which happens before any sort of recoil) then any poor follow through that happens is a result of bad grip and bad pre-shot setup/stance right? What i want to know is how can bad follow through effect a round that is already on its way? If the round kicks off when the reticle is where you want it then anything that happens after this event should have no bearing on where your round is headed should it? I hope that reads better than my last post.

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## veitnamcam

> Thanks to the lack of an edit button my badly worded post is doomed to stay..
> 
> So heres goes again.
> 
> Once the round has left the barrel (which happens before any sort of recoil) then any poor follow through that happens is a result of bad grip and bad pre-shot setup/stance right? What i want to know is how can bad follow through effect a round that is already on its way? If the round kicks off when the reticle is where you want it then anything that happens after this event should have no bearing on where your round is headed should it? I hope that reads better than my last post.



Perhaps to do with how the muzzle blast is affecting the bullet immediately after leaving the barrel?

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## redbang

R93, take no notice of that stirrer Horihunter, he's the sucker thats going to do the next lot of groups  :Grin: 

The bottom group was the 3 together 1,2,3,the other 2 were 4,5. Can't remember which way that other 5 shot group went.

ChrisF, no moly. It is Norma brass and I'm x2 and x3 reloads so far without problems, fingers crossed it lasts.

KG, the groups were shot pretty much one after the other, with pauses inbetween. Rifle wasn't feeling hot till the finish really, and not that hot either. Perhaps a bore snake pull through between groups might help.

I'm keen to see how Hori goes with it, but I'm thinking that it is me. I have been in the habit of writing down the speeds as I go, which means I'm disturbing my cheek and butt weld each time. That can't be good for consistency.

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## R93

Cool, will wait to see how James goes with it. I am still thinking bedding as it is classic 3 and 2 split.

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## ChrisF

The different tech for running moly bullets , is they seem to need more neck tension due to being so slippery , guys just chuck the necl expander  in a drill press and use some real fine wet & dry 800-1200 grit & lightly sand the expander , and knock a thou or 2 off the dia , this means you have a slightly smaller expander , and the neck is a little tighter if that makes sense .


Later  Chris

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## Smiddy

I'd try another load, I don't think it likes it.   But I'm a T-bag

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## R93

> The different tech for running moly bullets , is they seem to need more neck tension due to being so slippery , guys just chuck the necl expander  in a drill press and use some real fine wet & dry 800-1200 grit & lightly sand the expander , and knock a thou or 2 off the dia , this means you have a slightly smaller expander , and the neck is a little tighter if that makes sense .
> 
> 
> Later  Chris


Interesting. Used Moly for years and never had to do much but add more powder to achieve velocity. But use redding bushing dies without the expander to achieve a low runout so that is where I may have not noticed a requirement for more neck tention. Use HBN now and that is a bit more forgiving.

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## baldbob

> I'd try another load, I don't think it likes it.   But I'm a T-bag


Thats always ur theory!!!!!

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## baldbob

Bedding or scope!!! Has it been said????

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## distant stalker

I'm thinking bedding red considering the other groups you shot with my 7mm the same day I don't think it was you (no this is not me trying to weasel out of firing it for you) lol

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## Smiddy

Maybe its lack of hobnails

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## R93

Bwaaaaaa Haaaaa haaaa :Thumbsup:  Pissing myself!!!!! Good one Aaron.

Whats with this Hoki shit Aaron??? Who are you sniffing around?

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## Smiddy

Yes i have gone and got myself a westcoast girl Dave  :Thumbsup: ,   now i have 3 homes

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## R93

> Yes i have gone and got myself a westcoast girl Dave ,   now i have 3 homes




Well done mate! What sort of roaring horn did ya use to get her close?

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## Smiddy

> Well done mate! What sort of roaring horn did ya use to get her close?


LMFAO gold that is

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## R93

What? Its how I met Abe and Adam, they swear they are not gay but :Grin:

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## baldbob

> Yes i have gone and got myself a westcoast girl Dave ,   now i have 3 homes


 Its not ur fault you got out the packet of instant pudding and accidently opened a pack of instant family is it wee aaron :Have A Nice Day:

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## R93

> Its not ur fault you got out the packet of instant pudding and accidently opened a pack of instant family is it wee aaron


Ha Ha. Hes gone scrub for a few days Adam.

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## baldbob

> Ha Ha. Hes gone scrub for a few days Adam.


He saw it lol

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## R93

> He saw it lol




I said I would show him a few local places when he is nxt having a chew on his pudding.  I'll sucker him into lifting all the heavy stuff to help us move while I make out like I am doing something else. I hear he is a big boy and good at lifting things :Thumbsup:  I ll then send him up the Styx for a look, its not that popular of a spot eh?

You look reasonably fit in that photo Adam. Was it after ya guts almost fell out when you were crook or before?

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## baldbob

Two weeks after you popped into mine that night

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## R93

> Two weeks after you popped into mine that night


That doesnt read too good bro. It should say 2 weeks after I called round your place, too grace you with my presence! It otherwise reads like I popped into something else :Grin: 


Anyway, we should stay on Red Bangs topic. I am terrible for wandering. I still reckon its action/barrel movement but it is not bad.

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## baldbob

I possivly agree isnt savages barrels held on via a barrel nut? That combination not under correct tension could lead to slight movement....

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## zimmer

> Interesting. Used Moly for years and never had to do much but add more powder to achieve velocity. But use redding bushing dies without the expander to achieve a low runout so that is where I may have not noticed a requirement for more neck tention. Use HBN now and that is a bit more forgiving.


Curious... Same here, including the type of dies I own. Used moly in various cals since it first came on the scene. Never had an issue with neck tension.  Now only use it in a 6.5 Ackley F Class gun and with that I run almost no neck tension and soft seat with 8thou (initial) engagement into rifling.

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## R93

> Curious... Same here, including the type of dies I own. Used moly in various cals since it first came on the scene. Never had an issue with neck tension.  Now only use it in a 6.5 Ackley F Class gun and with that I run almost no neck tension and soft seat with 8thou (initial) engagement into rifling.


For what your doing I reckon moly is fine. If your out and about and coat hunting pills it was a pain in the ass whenever moisture was present....(all the time).
HBN takes all that hassle away. Reduces ES and no where near as messy. Definitely not as slippery as moly but.

Kiwi Greg put me onto it ages ago. He has been using it longer and may have more light to shed on it than I.
I just know it is good stuff and I have never had a visable trace of coppering since using it in quality barrels.
Dont even get a patch come out coated in anything but carbon.

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## Kiwi Greg

> For what your doing I reckon moly is fine. If your out and about and coat hunting pills it was a pain in the ass whenever moisture was present....(all the time).
> HBN takes all that hassle away. Reduces ES and no where near as messy. Definitely not as slippery as moly but.
> 
> Kiwi Greg put me onto it ages ago. He has been using it longer and may have more light to shed on it than I.
> I just know it is good stuff and I have never had a visable trace of coppering since using it in quality barrels.
> Dont even get a patch come out coated in anything but carbon.


Yep any moisture anywhere + moly = corrosion  :Omg:   :XD:   :Pissed Off: 

I don't know how much good HBN does, I have been using it for years, after hurting barrels with Moly.
I clean bugger all & once the rifle has settled down basically no copper fouling is evident even after 100-200+ rounds depending on calibre.
I don't really notice any carbon build up, although I don't have a bore scope yet, but don't know if I want one........
I have noticed that I have quite a few rifles now with silly single digit ES (more often that not), especially with mucking around with neck tension.
I haven't read or seen anything bad about HBN so I will keep coating all the pills for my own rifles, I'm careful not to use coated pills for customers rifles.
I haven't done enough testing yet to see how much difference it makes yet but will grab a nice consistent rifle & load to try with & without HBN.

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## zimmer

> Yep any moisture anywhere + moly = corrosion   
> 
> I don't know how much good HBN does, I have been using it for years, after hurting barrels with Moly.
> I clean bugger all & once the rifle has settled down basically no copper fouling is evident even after 100-200+ rounds depending on calibre.
> I don't really notice any carbon build up, although I don't have a bore scope yet, but don't know if I want one........
> I have noticed that I have quite a few rifles now with silly single digit ES (more often that not), especially with mucking around with neck tension.
> I haven't read or seen anything bad about HBN so I will keep coating all the pills for my own rifles, I'm careful not to use coated pills for customers rifles.
> I haven't done enough testing yet to see how much difference it makes yet but will grab a nice consistent rifle & load to try with & without HBN.


This is all off topic but here goes -
I am still not sure of the merits of coating although in the case of HBN the great David Tubb cannot be wrong (can he??..??).
I toyed with the idea of changing to Danzac when it came along and ditto for HBN but basically when my 6.5 is eventually toast I will cease using coated projectiles altogether.  
I am firing non coated in other target rifles and not having Cu problems.
The reason I went into moly with the 6.5 Ackley was more to test the point that the cartridge would have a barrel life exceeding the 6.5/284's .  So I use moly (which won't stop throat erosion I guess) and Win 760 powder because of its lower flame temperature.

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## tui_man2

> For what your doing I reckon moly is fine. If your out and about and coat hunting pills it was a pain in the ass whenever moisture was present....(all the time).
> HBN takes all that hassle away. Reduces ES and no where near as messy. Definitely not as slippery as moly but.
> 
> Kiwi Greg put me onto it ages ago. He has been using it longer and may have more light to shed on it than I.
> I just know it is good stuff and I have never had a visable trace of coppering since using it in quality barrels.
> Dont even get a patch come out coated in anything but carbon.


Adam had issues with it wet to poi changes so gone away from it now apart from his range guns?

sent from my Samsung s3 using tapatalk 2

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## R93

> Adam had issues with it wet to poi changes so gone away from it now apart from his range guns?
> 
> sent from my Samsung s3 using tapatalk 2


I have had no problems to speak of, wet or dry. 
Adam likes to tutu. :Psmiley:  
I dunked some rounds in the river, shook briefly and fired groups consistent enough to my MPI with my .223 and 6.5-06. This was after he told me he had experienced this. He must have got shrimp guts or something else on them. :Grin:

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## baldbob

Hunted in the rain for 3 days first ..  poi change of 2" at 100m with or without.... 200 rounds with an no fouling.. Good stuff but also bad stuff... I hbn my range warriors and stay naked on my hunting stuff now... Much more consistant.... Single digit freaky es with hbn is tge norm tho....

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## R93

> Hunted in the rain for 3 days first ..  poi change of 2" at 100m with or without.... 200 rounds with an no fouling.. Good stuff but also bad stuff... I hbn my range warriors and stay naked on my hunting stuff now... Much more consistant.... Single digit freaky es with hbn is tge norm tho....




I thought you were on the Turps???

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## baldbob

Iam

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## crnkin

There's a present for you on your safe...

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## R93

> There's a present for you on your safe...



Na, there isint, got the cook to have a look and there still is only cobwebs :Grin:

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## R93

Any developments on your issue Red?

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## redbang

Going to take it apart tomorrow and check recoil lug thingy and give it the once over for any shiny marks anywhere.

I did get a half turn on the front rail mount and 1/4 on the rear, but just put that down to settling in with everything being new. Don't think it would have caused the problem.

The Norma cases are coming up to x3 reloads with no issues as yet, which is pleasing, and haven't had any pressure signs either. The speeds for my loads are consistent with internet data. So, considering all things it's looking like a mechanical problem right enough, as has been pointed out.

I'll be paying closer attention to body position, and swap shooters to see where the problem emerges or goes away.

If it's still there at the next shoot it'll be a bedding job.

Thanks for the interest folks, I'll keep ya posted. . . .  :Have A Nice Day:

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## distant stalker

Came home early from hunt due to snow so could pop over if you feel like a range day

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## redbang

Ok, some interesting results today with Horihunters help. Groups were shot in the order of the circled numbers.

Hori is a leftie, so bear in mind for his groups the rifle was moved to a totally different position.




Then at home when the rifle was dismantled found this. . . . 


So, you can see the fluting marks on the lower part of the barrel channel, and the rubbing on the side about 5" long. The marks are more apparent on the channel than the barrel, as you can see only a light mark on the barrel.

Next question is, is this enough evidence to cause problems ?

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## distant stalker

Looks like you've found the problem

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## Toby

Good grouping Hori on the 2nd photo

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## Kiwi Greg

> Looks like you've found the problem


It would appear so, or most of it at least  :Have A Nice Day:

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## R93

Definitely not helping. Id say you will be sweet when removed.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

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## redbang

Well, thought all my troubles were over after the channel discoveries, but oooohhhh no, just beginning !

Loaded up and ready to go, fired first 2 shots, went where I expected them, first high(cold barrel etc. ) next through the centre of the bull Wahooo !

Next 3 all over the clock out to 4+" (100m),  WTF !

Ah well must have been me, too quick too keen  :Oh Noes: 

Try at 200m, well f#*k me, over 8" all over the place, bollox. . . . . . pack up go home, contemplate taking up full contact tiddly winks. . . . 

Next morn pick up rifle, scope and rail nearly fall off  :Wtfsmilie:   :Pissed Off:  

Off to Gunworks tomorrow for rectification.

The shooting Gods are obviously pissed off with me  :Sad:

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## R93

> Well, thought all my troubles were over after the channel discoveries, but oooohhhh no, just beginning !
> 
> Loaded up and ready to go, fired first 2 shots, went where I expected them, first high(cold barrel etc. ) next through the centre of the bull Wahooo !
> 
> Next 3 all over the clock out to 4+" (100m),  WTF !
> 
> Ah well must have been me, too quick too keen 
> 
> Try at 200m, well f#*k me, over 8" all over the place, bollox. . . . . . pack up go home, contemplate taking up full contact tiddly winks. . . . 
> ...


Bugger! Surely it will be sweet when thats fixed.

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## RUNAS

It's a Savage right ? This is the second
 time I've heard of this happening? First time was at a F Class shoot. 
I'd be getting out the epoxy as well as the allen keys. 
I hope you get it sorted.

RUNAS

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## redbang

Looks like it was Loctited on instead of epoxy, so new good quality rail ordered and going on properly. Also one of KG's Terminator T3's on it's way. 

Looking fwd to the next round of the saga  :Grin:

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## distant stalker

As am I....Haha

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## redbang

> As am I....Haha


. . . I seem to have mislaid/lost your rifle, gosh, wonder where it is. . . . . !

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## distant stalker

> . . . I seem to have mislaid/lost your rifle, gosh, wonder where it is. . . . . !


You could be forgiven for wanting to keep one of mine.....mine shoot....Haha

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## CreepingDeath

Haha asked for that

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## redbang

:Grin:  :Grin:

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## redbang

Well finally got the beast back, nice new rail and shiny( matte actually) new Terminator T3 brake on it. Took it for an outing yesdy, got it on paper and got good hits at 680 and 995yds. Well satisfied as it was a blustery windy day. The brake is bloody effective, it's taken the sharpness of the recoil right out and is now just a big push, sight picture is picked back up real quick. Makes it even more fun to use !  :Thumbsup: 
Have to run some groups at 100 next weekend, to confirm some loads and speeds. Pain in the arse now with the handloaders out of action, have to go further afield now.
Will be checking scope rail and mounts a bit more regularly now, don't want to embarrass meself again !

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