# Firearms and Shooting > Shotgunning >  20g lead ban ?

## Munsey

Has this been put to bed or is it still  . I'm replacing my shotgun and am in two minds wether to get a 20g as most my shooting is on easy ponds and uplands . Lead will be my issue and I've never followed where this is heading . Any be kind as to fill me in

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## Spook

I, for one have never understood how the lead fired from a 20 gauge differs from the lead fired from a 12 gauge...I really would like someone to enlighten me.

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## greghud

heres it in a nutshell
4% of shooters use sub gauges. (under 12g)
southland fish and gayme wanted to restrict these 4% and make them suffer the poor performance of steel just like everyone else.
they kicked a hornets nest and had their arse handed to them by the local members who are sick to death of do gooders who think they are doing the rite thing by self inflicting restrictions on law abiding shooters in an attempt to appease the anti gunners (anti everyfuckingthingers) . (who will only stop when ALL shooting is banned full stop, but thats another subject)
so they have continued on their campaign (fuck knows why?) by submitting their recommendations to the national body in an attempt to get them to impose these restrictions.
short story long, if the current sitting members dont get told where to go next elections i suppose we deserve everything we get......
greg

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## gadgetman

And if I remember correctly greghud the national body vetoed it. So the lead ban in sub gauges is dead in the water at this stage.

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## madds

YAY  go 16 gauge.
I only hope those concerned way down South are voted off!!
END OF STORY.
Greghud, good version of events.

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## kotuku

i doubt it gadg,as we know the mooters of the proposal wont generally take NO for an answer so i'd suspect its still bubbling away quietly on the edge of the fire awaiting a reintroduction if opportunity presents.

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## gadgetman

> i doubt it gadg,as we know the mooters of the proposal wont generally take NO for an answer so i'd suspect its still bubbling away quietly on the edge of the fire awaiting a reintroduction if opportunity presents.


I agree, that's why I said at this stage. Hopefully this provokes local action at election time.

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## PerazziSC3

This rule seriously confuses the general public, it seems absolutely ridiculous that you can use lead in all sub gauges but not in 12....

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## greghud

go buy some steel shot for your 16, 20, 28 and 32 gauge, and grab a box of steel for the kids 410. then you will see the lack of confusion. ya cant get it. and because there is only a very small proportion of shooters using them (4% are sub gauges) there really is no point. also steel is bloody useless in a 12g can you imagine the performance out of a sub gauge?
greg

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## PerazziSC3

im not disagreeing, just stating a fact that the rule is ridiculous in a logical sense

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## Toby

> go buy some steel shot for your 16, 20, 28 and 32 gauge, and grab a box of steel for the kids 410. then you will see the lack of confusion. ya cant get it. and because there is only a very small proportion of shooters using them (4% are sub gauges) there really is no point. also steel is bloody useless in a 12g can you imagine the performance out of a sub gauge?
> greg


Pretty sure there is steel for a 20g, think NZhunter done a write up on using it a few years ago. iirc it was Kent

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## madds

PerazziSC3, another day, different post!!! I agree it is confusing, but being biased the owner of 3 16 gauges I'd fight for the status quo.
I'm suprised that it is only 4% with sub guages, in the two groups I'm lucky enough to shoot in there is always 2/4 sub gauges.
The way retailers are speaking you would think that 20 Ga. has taken over, obviously not so.
I suppose if they ban subbies totally I'll have to trade in the old 1187 and buy a 3 1/2 " Benelli, and start throwing steel all over the place.
Leave well alone I say!!

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## john m

I love my 16 ga Merkel for ducks so I hope I never see 16 ga steel for sale. It was made long before someone dreamed up the idea of shooting steel out of a shotgun. It does give the rangers a rush of blood when they ask if we are all using steel and I reply no with a blank look on my face.

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## greghud

the statistics dont lie, have a look at the volume of sub gauge ammo sold vs 12g and it tells the tail. 
i think the sub gauge ban talk is the reason everyone thinks there is far more 20g, it is just what is topical at the moment. 
i have a 410 for the kids, but i dont personally shoot with anyone else that shoots sub gauge, and i shoot with quite a number of shooters.
greg

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## madds

greghud I wasn't disputing the facts at all, I was just suprised as those statistics. BUT that is I suppose the issue. I'll be down at Target Products next Wednesday picking up our traps for the weekend, so I'll see how they see it, just out of interest. It would be hard to attribute all the 12 ga game ammo sold as 'duck shooting', but I suppose if its around that time then it would be logical really....
Either way personally I hope it just goes away, which is odd with us writing about it, or perhaps just common sence will prevail.

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## Spook

> I love my 16 ga Merkel for ducks so I hope I never see 16 ga steel for sale. It was made long before someone dreamed up the idea of shooting steel out of a shotgun. It does give the rangers a rush of blood when they ask if we are all using steel and I reply no with a blank look on my face.


So, how do the ducks know that the lead from your 16 or my grandsons 20 is safe to ingest, because isn't it ducks picking up the lead from the bottom of waterways what it is all about...and isn't there something about the width of the waterway that comes into it...all very confusing.

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## The Claw

> So, how do the ducks know that the lead from your 16 or my grandsons 20 is safe to ingest, because isn't it ducks picking up the lead from the bottom of waterways what it is all about...and isn't there something about the width of the waterway that comes into it...all very confusing.


The only lead that makes it into our pond would be from me having to finish off wounded birds as a result of steels ineffective killing power... Otherwise it lands probably 100m away from the pond (the stuff that isn't caught by the bird that is...). Out of the 40 ish shooters on ponds nearby that I know of, only one other shoots sub gauge. And that was only a result of witnessing the difference of killing power between the 3 inch steel hyper velocity ammo he was using and standard 20g 2 3/4 lead I was using. I now use 3" 1 1/8oz shells, the difference is more pronounced now.

I see in the 2014 printed Fish and Game regulations that there is a paragraph about banning of lead in sub gauges in Southland to be in force by 2017. "after careful consideration of submissions" was mentioned (they are obviously blind and deaf!) which is laughable. They were obviously pretty confident that it was going through when drafting the regulations for 2014. Luckily they have been set straight (for the time being)...

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## Toby

Its 8% of adult hunters using a 20g its increasing hence the lead ban.

Its a load of shit, thats about all fish and game can talk. I like the bit about how they say they followed the international trend to phase out lead in 12g

That sounds right to me, follow the fucking "trend"

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## Munsey

[QUOTE=Toby;229798]Its 8% of adult hunters using a 20g its increasing hence the lead ban.

Its a load of shit, thats about all fish and game can talk. I like the bit about how they say they followed the international trend to phase out lead in 12g

8% using 20 g doesn't mean shit ,as how many use 20 g as a upland gun only . Seems to be the trend with my hunting mates/ acquaintances . They still use 12 g on ducks and don't have a problem with steel at all .

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## Uplandstalker

[QUOTE=Munsey;229886]


> Its 8% of adult hunters using a 20g its increasing hence the lead ban.
> 
> Its a load of shit, thats about all fish and game can talk. I like the bit about how they say they followed the international trend to phase out lead in 12g
> 
> 8% using 20 g doesn't mean shit ,as how many use 20 g as a upland gun only . Seems to be the trend with my hunting mates/ acquaintances . They still use 12 g on ducks and don't have a problem with steel at all .


I'm one of those, 12g Steel for Mai Mai shooting on ducks, 20g for upland and jump shooting the backwaters etc. Of course the 12 is used with lead for geese and dry land ducks from the layout bind.

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## Toby

I'm the same, 12g steel over water 20g for pheasants and pigeons though I'll shoot a duck with it if it flew by

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## mikee

> I'm the same, 12g steel over water 20g for pheasants and pigeons though I'll shoot a duck with it if it flew by


Same now that I have a 12g but I haven't shot at ducks for many many years  :Have A Nice Day:

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## madds

The real shame of steel, 20 gauges etc is its become a huge rolling argument and no one is going to back down.
I personally think steel only was the worst thing to happen to us. Think of it, all the pro steel zealots argue, just let the birds get closer and pick your shots. Well suprise, suprise the majority of shooters are not expert shots, do not always pick the right spot and still like blazing away at long range. The argument of lead pollution in ducks is so far non existant. 
Most opening weekenders I would say, if we're lucky, may attend a duck shooters clay event just to blaze away at a few clays. Other than that their 'shotgun practice' is practically nil. I was with a group of duck shooters 3 weeks ago on clays and hell safety was basically non existant. Barrels lent on feet while loading and closing, gun waving all over the place, not to mention the lackadaisical attitude with semi auto's.
It's probably all right of you are an 'expert' and dedicated duck hunter, but for most it's just a social weekend away with mates and an excuse to get away from lawns and house maintence.
My view of it anyway.

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## Ground Control

Id be interested to know how many birds the average licensed shooter harvests in a season .
I suspect 10 percent of the shooters get 95 percent of the birds .
I only used steel for a couple of years before moving away . I only shot ponds , and from memory it performed OK , but at the close distances just about anything would work .
Unless I was shooting huge volumes of shells I would be buying some of the non toxic substitutes, Bismuth etc .
I know its expensive , but shooters are funny " head in the sand" type people sometimes . They will happily spend vast sums on new guns , waders ,camo , jackets , gloves , hats, decoys , callers , motorized flapping ducks , fuel , accommodation , air fares ,food , booze  , Transvestite hookers & blow up dolls ( sorry to give your secrets away Ron , but someone has to make it publicly known )  but then pull up short on the very thing that kills the target - AMMO .

Agree with you Ron about the safety side of things and the "Opening Weekend Warriors" , but at the same time ,those people are what makes Duck Shooting great . Come here to Queensland where there is no game bird hunting at all ( it is banned ) and you will quickly see what a treasure NZ has in the form of bird shooting .


Ken

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## madds

Just attended another 'Duck shooters' shoot which has done nothing really to change my mind re safety.
That said I did enjoy the day at Waihora with only a couple of dozen or so regular Sporting shooters and 80/90 duck shooters.
They did have a safety briefing for every squad by experienced and Safety Officers which I think was a very good thing and should be applauded.
Put on a decent gun and they come out of the woodwork. Just wish we could 'harvest' them for our regular club days and get them to join Sporting full time.
Have a new u/o 16 ga. sitting in Auckland Customs so can't wait to have a go at the clays before the big day!!

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## Ground Control

What have you bought ?
We must have pictures .

Ken

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## madds

Found a NIB Browning 16ga U/O. Its a White Lightning 28" barrels.
Don't know why really, had a 16 sxs and a new Browning Sweet Sixteen so wanted the trifector.
Looking forward to some quail and duck shooting with it I must say.

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