# Firearms and Shooting > Shotgunning >  12ga shotgun slugs

## Smallfoot

Anyone casting 12ga slugs that fit inside a wad, or know where I can buy 'em? 

I've been shooting factory slugs out of a smoothbore 12ga but it leads up terribly, keen to try the wadded ones before I buy a mold.

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## Kiwi Sapper

Um..... to be a little more precise, don't you mean inside a sabot?  Which I think is now illegal

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## Smallfoot

Nah, like those Lee key drive slugs, or Lyman giant airgun pellet slugs (I've only read about them in the forum, never seen them). Added a picture, that might make more sense!

Also, nope, they're not illegal nor are sabot shotshell rounds, can read here:

Arms (Prohibited Ammunition) Order 2019 (LI 2019/137) (as at 20 December 2019) Schedule Ammunition declared prohibited ammunition â€“ New Zealand Legislation

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## Micky Duck

they were for sale on trademe pretty much anytime Ive looked for last few years....you CAN get round ball sinker of correct diameter and drop that inside you wad too...not hard to work out correct diameter...better too small than too big.

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## Smallfoot

Yep, I'm keen to go the Rizla route. I didn't realise how much leading I'd get from the factory rifled slugs - I've only reloaded black shotshell before. I'm pretty keen to use a 12ga slug I can drop into normal wads, figure it's good to keep things simple (and cheap!).

On the illegal ammo thing - the order linked above banning ammo specifically exempts shotshell, sabot or otherwise :-)

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## Kiwi Sapper

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Your image tickled the little gray cells and I went searching and found i had a 100 pack of Lyman 520 gr  12gauge slugs.   Just like the right hand ones in your image. AS I remember they WERE illegal when the bozos were in a frenzy of law changes as they did not exclude them. SO I had put them aside. 

Seems, subsequently  they amended the "Law"

I could sent you some freebee slugs and sabots if you want to run  trials. PM me with your address.

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## Smallfoot

> Also, what the heck are you shooting with em?


Thanks! I'll keep an eye out on TradeMe!  I've been out goating with factory slugs a lot, good out to about 80m, but after a few shots I need to have a rod and lead brush with me or they start going all over the place.   It's also a lot of fun, if expensive, ringing gongs with slugs!

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## DavidGunn

These are fun on goats, go off like a crack from a rifle, good out to 100 metres...haven't made any for a while, usually make the slugs during the winter in the wood burner.

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## Smallfoot

> Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
> 
> Your image tickled the little gray cells and I went searching and found i had a 100 pack of Lyman 520 gr  12gauge slugs. AS I remember they WERE illegal when the bozos were in a frenzy of law changes as they did not exclude them. SO I had put them aside. 
> 
> Seems, subsequently  they ammended the "Law"
> 
> I could sent you some freebee slugs and sabots if you want to run  trials. PM me with your address.


Yes please!  Yeah, I'm still wondering if the muzzloaders are okay with patched ball, or if it's gotta be a lubed conical now!

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## Micky Duck

are you using rifled slugs in a rifled barrel????? because you shouldnt or will get the leading issues you talking about.... the rifled barrels are for sabotted rounds or indeed inside wadded ones...and dont bother trying birdshot or buckshot as it just makes pretty doughnut patterns ...really big doughnuts.

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## Smallfoot

> are you using rifled slugs in a rifled barrel????? because you shouldnt or will get the leading issues you talking about.... the rifled barrels are for sabotted rounds or indeed inside wadded ones...and dont bother trying birdshot or buckshot as it just makes pretty doughnut patterns ...really big doughnuts.


Never tried a rifled shotgun barrel, all smoothbore (not even pitted!), seems to happen with any factory slug - those Proshot Tornado brushes pull heaps of lead out after a handful of shots.

I kinda want to try the donut thing out of one now though... a good shot'd be a miss every time?

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## jim160

I know of someone who casts the lyman and lee mould ones.
I have a mould for the Lee one if that helps.  It's a little rusted, and a little rough, you can have it if you do any casting.

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## Marty Henry

If small footprint doesn't want the mold I'll definitly take it please.

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## jim160

> If small footprint doesn't want the mold I'll definitly take it please.


Ok.  Will wait for a response first, and then we can go from there.

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## Smallfoot

> I know of someone who casts the lyman and lee mould ones.
> I have a mould for the Lee one if that helps.  It's a little rusted, and a little rough, you can have it if you do any casting.


Please, yeah, I'm keen to try one.  If it doesn't work out for me I'll get hold of you @Marty Henry

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## Brian

I used a lee mold they have a bar across the inside of them. Just carefully cut the top off a shell and pour the shot out and poke the slug in the cup.
If you dont cut too much off you can roll crimp it. Surprisingly accurate.

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## Tertle

I cast my own Lyman 525gr slugs, reasonably accurate too, ive tinkered with cutting the petals back and off, even used ballistic product cushions wads, a load of fun!
 @Smallfoot if your really going to go down the rabbit hole flick me an email and ill send you some ideas on things to look out for

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## Ben-tard

> I used a lee mold they have a bar across the inside of them. Just carefully cut the top off a shell and pour the shot out and poke the slug in the cup.
> If you dont cut too much off you can roll crimp it. Surprisingly accurate.


I do the same with cheap clay shooting rounds, pick the star crimp open, pour out the shot, melt it and cast 1oz slugs with the Lee mold then poke them back in and roll crimp them. Haven't tried hunting with them but consistently does minute of A4 paper @ 50mtrs at the range

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## Finnwolf

> I do the same with cheap clay shooting rounds, pick the star crimp open, pour out the shot, melt it and cast 1oz slugs with the Lee mold then poke them back in and roll crimp them. Haven't tried hunting with them but consistently does minute of A4 paper @ 50mtrs at the range


They’ll be mild to fire compared to factory slug loads I dare say?

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## Brian

Yeah used the gun club ammo too. They will go right through a goats backbone at 60 yds.
Got a sxs shortened by 6in and express sights.
Poor mans double rifle.

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## Micky Duck

> Then there's the old, fill (still full of pellets) shotcup with wax.
> Never actually tested it's terminal performance, but they're a bit of a hoot at the blunt end.


doesnt work well...have tried and gave up....the old stories of doing so to increase range of birdshot have grain of truth as it was in days BEFORE plastic wad cups....
as for cut shells....yeah well at 5 yards maybe...but to say they as good as a solid is pure BS.
Ive shot bailed pigs with birdshot...at VERY close range eg under 3 yards payload still hits as clump and wad will often enter hole too. done it with .410 on wallaby under 5 yards as well....

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## Ben-tard

> Theyll be mild to fire compared to factory slug loads I dare say?


They do have slightly less boot I suppose, not much in it though. Dont know if I'd call it mild  :Grin:  still punting a 1oz lump of lead out the barrel. I would love to put it over a chrono just for interests sake

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## Micky Duck

logic would suggest it will be similar to what the shot was going to be doing...1100fps or thereabouts....it wasn't until steel hunting loads got tweaked that shotgun birdshot loads got above 1300fps,most have always been 1100-1200fps because with lead shot that's what patterns best.

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## Cordite

Prohibited ammunition:    

"Discarding-sabot ammunition (excluding shotgun cartridges)

Legal Definition:

"Small-diameter projectiles *designed to pierce armour* that are placed into 
a supporting plug (a sabot) and then pushed down the bore as an assembly; 
the sabot is stripped off when the assembly leaves the barrel"

---

This law clearly targets armour-piercing projectiles.

I read that you can have discarding sabot ammo as long as it is not armour piercing, whether rifle or shotgun.  Paper patching bullets / boolits has never been made illegal either.

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## outlander

> They do have slightly less boot I suppose, not much in it though. Dont know if I'd call it mild  still punting a 1oz lump of lead out the barrel. I would love to put it over a chrono just for interests sake


I never experience leading with any of the slug types. Here's a Lee 1oz @1330fps on a my chrony at 2 metres. 
The Lyman 525 gr ( pellet shape) slugs make a whistling sound and never hit anything that I aim at. Round ball 480gr are more accurate than they should be, roughly equal to the Lee 1 oz at a modest 50 metres, at anything more from my smooth bore guns, is a crap shoot.

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## Bob Da Browning

I am interested in doing a couple of single shot shotguns I have  up as sluggers with shorter barrels & rifle sights. Just as a novelty thing really but curious to see the results & maybe use them on a few Hares for giggles. I'm Christchurch based & would be keen to load some up or buy slugs or pool resources to load up some with other forum members as I have trapshooting reloading gear ( lots of wads, shot in various sizes, primers & shells. Just need powder to suit)

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## Smallfoot

Next time I get the pot out, I'll cast up some 1oz Lee Keydrives and send you some down to try.

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## Bob Da Browning

Cheers, that would be fantastic.

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## Marty Henry

I've been having a bit of fun with a pedersoli muzzle loading shotgun lately and patched 16 gauge round ball slugs.  The accuracy with just the bead is 6 shots into a 10 inch circle at 50 yards next step is to fit a low profile rear sight to see how much better it can get.

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## thejavelin

I went through a phase of all kind of crazy testing in my younger years.
Loads of wax/pellet slugs and the like - most interesting though, 15mm socket actually makes a good mould for a pretty decent slug. Amusing at short range, tumbles at any distance.

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## DavidGunn

> I am interested in doing a couple of single shot shotguns I have  up as sluggers with shorter barrels & rifle sights. Just as a novelty thing really but curious to see the results & maybe use them on a few Hares for giggles. I'm Christchurch based & would be keen to load some up or buy slugs or pool resources to load up some with other forum members as I have trapshooting reloading gear ( lots of wads, shot in various sizes, primers & shells. Just need powder to suit)


PM an address and I will send a few as in post #10

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## csmiffy

> I've been having a bit of fun with a pedersoli muzzle loading shotgun lately and patched 16 gauge round ball slugs.  The accuracy with just the bead is 6 shots into a 10 inch circle at 50 yards next step is to fit a low profile rear sight to see how much better it can get.


Strangely enough I read something other day on an african big game website.
Thread was poor man's double or something like that.
Fellow did some PH work and tried using buckshot for the smaller DG work ie wounded leopards. Not a fan.
Ended up shortening a SxS shortie and installing a rear peep and low front sight.
Still close range but way happier with brenneke slugs than buckshot.

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## Scout

Done lots of work with 12bore slugs & balls, balls are easy & all you need for most animals, think Musket for hundreds of years, I have rifled single barrel shoots balls into same hole 25yds & bigger hole at 50yd, got similar results with a double I fitted sights to, not that tight but usable .  

I also have a 15lb 12bore 3in Double Rifle by Tolley which is crazy powerful & would take all big game .

Buckshot is only for very light game, very close unless you have a specialized choke & cartridge I reckon .  

Here is some of the Buckshot out of a small Leopard, 2 different sizes & multiple shots with pistol shots added, only stopped when the 06 was used .

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## Marty Henry

On behalf of @ebf may I extend your and your 12 bore double an invitation to next year's biggish bore shoot. It would certainly make a hit with the targets.

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## csmiffy

This was the article in question. On tough muscled leopards, unless you got them right in the neck at very close range, buckshot was next to useless, hence evolving into a slugged up shottie. I do like the sights. Still did ok at reasonable distances
good use of a coach gun

https://www.africahunting.com/thread...e-rifle.47839/

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## Brian

Here's my one. Haven't fired it for a while but it will put a slug from each barrel 2 inches apart at 60 yds. 20 in barrels.

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## csmiffy

@Brian nice one mate

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## Scout

Here is my Tolley, its built on 8 rifle bore action or 4 Bore Shotgun action .

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## McNotty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYHvC9TtutU

Bit of a laugh, sabot rifled slugs out of a Browning.

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## csmiffy

@Brian what sort of sights did you fit?
Funnily enough i was out at my closest gunsmith, gundocs old apprentice and this came up. We were chatting while he was removing a busted stock out of a very glued together bedding job. Not him i might add
He has an old SxS that is only 16-18" long.
fitted some sights and then for shitz and gigs, fitted a scope mount on the rib with a pistol scope on there. Think he said it can flip over too real quick if you really need the opens.
Not everyone's cup of tea but the shotty cost about 60 bucks so nothing lost.
shoots slugs well and very close together at fiddy yards too

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## Brian

Don't know what sort they are. It was a long time ago.
Gave it to Din and asked for express sights. The back sight folds.

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## csmiffy

> @Brian what sort of sights did you fit?
> Funnily enough i was out at my closest gunsmith, gundocs old apprentice and this came up. We were chatting while he was removing a busted stock out of a very glued together bedding job. Not him i might add
> He has an old SxS that is only 16-18" long.
> fitted some sights and then for shitz and gigs, fitted a scope mount on the rib with a pistol scope on there. Think he said it can flip over too real quick if you really need the opens.
> Not everyone's cup of tea but the shotty cost about 60 bucks so nothing lost.
> shoots slugs well and very close together at fiddy yards too


i should say the barrels are that long..not the whole shotgun.
My bad

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## Kiwilad2021

Hi,do you happen to still have the slug mould? Im super keen to get one.
Cheers

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## Smallfoot

I've a Lee one, but afraid I'm mid-move packed. Can cast you some up when I've a garage back.

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## grandpamac

Greetings All,
If hurling large chunks of lead through the air is the object, why not just buy a 45-70. Hodgdon has data with cast lead down to 700 fps with Trailboss (485 grain cast LFP with 8 grains of TB check this for yourself). This would be less dangerous than using untested shot gun slug loads which may leave the odd slug in the bore. Things get a lot worse if it is fired again without clearing the obstruction. The late Wallace Labisky, I think, suggested that safely developing slug loads without pressure testing equipment was highly risky at best.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## Smallfoot

Mostly 'cos we want to :-) !  Gives a lot of flexibility when out bunny/magpie/possum shooting when there are bigger beasts around.  Plus, when you've already got a shotgun, $2,000+ for a 45/70 is a lot of coin!

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## grandpamac

> Mostly 'cos we want to :-) !  Gives a lot of flexibility when out bunny/magpie/possum shooting when there are bigger beasts around.  Plus, when you've already got a shotgun, $2,000+ for a 45/70 is a lot of coin!


Greetings Smallfoot,
I thought that might be the case. Please be cautious however as squib loads can be very dangerous in shotguns or rifles for that matter. All the best.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## Micky Duck

trailboss loads in 45/70 generate MORE pressure than lighter loads with other powders....by quite a large amount....
 plenty of load data around for slug loads...so its not really untested.
taking an once of shot out and replacing with once of slug.....yeah pretty similar pressure me thinks LOL.

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## Marty Henry

I believe slug pressures would theoretically be lower than shot charges of the same weight using the same charge.
Although the weight is the same the bearing area of the shot charge is larger than that of the slug due to its less dense packing of the pellets which in theory will produce more friction and resistance and therefore increase pressure. I could be wrong though.

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## Smallfoot

Ideally you want to use a snail, over a slug.  Better shell.

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## Kiwi Sapper

> ................Although the weight is the same the bearing area of the shot charge is larger than that of the slug due to its less dense packing of the pellets which in theory will produce more friction and resistance and therefore increase pressure. I could be wrong though.


Ummmmm. In the case of the Lee 1 ounce and the Lyman 525 gr, they both fit snugly into  waa12 wad....so is the "bearing area " of which you speak, the base of the slug or?

Asking for a friend  :>)

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## Micky Duck

have you pushed one through bore ,with ramrod,inside a wad yet???

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## Kiwi Sapper

> have you pushed one through bore ,with ramrod,inside a wad yet???


Nope. 
It seemd good odds that if the ingredients and instructions etc as named by the manufacturers were used and followed, then all should be tickety boo...So, brand new gun.... ended up firing them along with commercial loads with true cylinder. No problems.

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## Marty Henry

I know the air rifle pellet shaped ones fall through a cylinder bore they also fit snugly inside a 16 gauge brass case. As to my friction idea, in theory they only bear on the barrel at the skirt and nose.

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## Kiwi Sapper

> I know the air rifle pellet shaped ones fall through a cylinder bore they also fit snugly inside a 16 gauge brass case. As to my friction idea, in theory they only bear on the barrel at the skirt and nose.


Ummmm. Indeed they do but it is my understanding that they are to be used as a Sabot slug so no "falling" involved then. Used with the WAA 12 which is a perfect fit, they don't "fall" down the bore, thye will move smoothly BUT require to be forced through any choke.....which is not surprising as I also understand that choking is not recommended.

As i have to fit a choke to protect the inside barrel choke thread, I then find that neither of what I believe are my two true cylnder chokes appear to be "true" as they both impede a sabot Lyman. Bit of a puzzle that and not sure how to overcome it.

I don't have any wads with a thiner external petal diameter than the WAA12 petals so if anyone knows of such a wad with the same column height, or less, I would appreciate hearing about it.

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## Micky Duck

dont worry about it at  all...you CAN fire slugs through full choke...NOT RECOMENDED but you can do it...if you couldnt,you wouldnt be able to buy them or someone who did would sue...

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## Kiwi Sapper

> dont worry about it at  all...you CAN fire slugs through full choke...NOT RECOMENDED but you can do it...if you couldnt,you wouldnt be able to buy them or someone who did would sue...

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## outlander

> Ideally you want to use a snail, over a slug.  Better shell.


Beggars can't always be choosers. It just depends on what you have in your garden at the time.

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## Cordite

Lee has also brought out an alternative to their 1oz key drive slugs, the 7/8oz key drive slug.  

It's front heavy and really invokes musket slugs used during the American Civil War in its geometry, musket slugs appreciably increased the range of muskets but appear to be inherently stable in flight due to their skirt and front-heaviness. The Lee 1oz slug lacks the front heavy balance. The basic geometry of the 7/8oz slug is length = diameter, like the CSA Nessler Ball below.  Taofledermaus did a test which also showed one method of using preloaded shotshells by replacing shot with slug.

Link to Taofledermaus video if it does not load below.



  Note the drawing on the left is the original Nessler Ball with a hollow skirt.

The CSA .69 Nessler Ball was adapted with a Wilkinson Base, not hollow skirt and were used to get rifle level accuracy out of muskets up to 400 yards.  They conical base would basically compress and as a result the rear edge would obturate the bore.  Important to note, there should be no lubricant in the "groove" as the lubricant would prevent the cone from collapsing and obturating the bore.

(Makes you wonder - with lubricated cast bullets - will they obturate a bit better if you remove the lube from the rearmost groove???)

 (link to modern manufacturer's page)


You will note that the 1:1 length:bore relationship does not feature in this 1.23oz projectie when it's loaded, but once fired and obturated the ratio has become right as seen in this original recovered Nessler-Wilkinson bullet:


The massive remaining cannelure is thought to contribute to the skirt stabilising effect but the wilkinson base seems to have been better than the minie at obturating, the type of base certainly allowed the bullet to be denser for its length.

The Lee 1oz 7/8oz key slugs significantly are only .640" diameter, the modern Nessler equivalent is .69" and the 12 gauge is .729" upwards, probably a fair bit of inaccuracy is from windage bounce due to makers assuming every SG slug shooter is a drooling idiot who may have a tight choke installed and who also needs to be told not to drink the fluid in his car battery.

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## Three O'Three

Once I loaded some 1 ounce fishing sinkers in 12g, fitted inside a standard winchester wad with the support of a patch. shot surprisingly accurate and took a big chunk out of a fence post.

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## Micky Duck

yes the trick is to find CORRECT sized ball....

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## Three O'Three

> yes the trick is to find CORRECT sized ball....


The ones sold at thewarehouse worked well. A small gun cleaning patch helps the sinker sit snugly in the wad. If I remember correctly those sinkers are roughly .65 inch diameter. I've been trying to find a sinker mold that size.

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