# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Police called out for Duck shooting

## PestNightshooter

Interested in opinions on this and where/what it will lead to and if some proactive actions should be taken now or wait for letter to arrive and deal with then depending on what letter says.
Some quick facts around incident.
DOC ground encompassing riverbed (DOC Game bird Permit for area held and shown to Police)
Firearms license valid (Valid and viewed by Police)
Duck shooting license valid.
Firearm locked in case and opened for inspection by request for Police. Ammunition stored correctly.
This is rural environment, maybe total 5 farm houses within 3kms
Been shooting this area for 5yrs no issues until now.
Police... 3 cars...6 officers at exit gate from riverbed. Complaint about unsafe shooting, pellets have hit farm house roof.
Conclusion of interview at gateway, have been told will be getting written letter for "firing a weapon in unsafe direction"
Here is the interesting bit, I believe the complaint is false and is more likely a noise complaint or local not wanting it shot. (do shoot a limit here 5 or 6 times per season)
Why? There is only 1 houses within 1.5km and it is 736mts away.
From the research I have done it appears steel 4 shot is incapable of traveling that far.
When fired at a 40 degree elevation (apparently max range is achieved at 40 not 45) testing in England and America both say maximum with tail wind 350mts so that does not not even get 1/2 way to the closest house.

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## 40mm

was this you who was the shooter?

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## PestNightshooter

> was this you who was the shooter?


Shooter is family member and I have shot at this location with them as well regularly. (would normally have been present but was not on this occasion)

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## MB

Sadly, we'll see more of this kind of stuff as society moves away from guns and hunting.

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## dannyb

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like there was a reasonable and lawful excuse, and surely (I know common sense does not apply)
If there nearest dwelling is further away than the shotty is capable of throwing pellets in even the most favourable conditions a semi decent lawyer should be able to see this off without too much trouble. ...Unfortunately at the expense of your friends wallet.
I would be seeking qualified legal advice lickety split do not wait for an outcome.

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## tac a1

Make them prove that shot actually hit the house. If it is present it will be in the gutters etc etc.

Don't just lie down and take it from them, they will have your license revoked next time you have to renew it.

Good to see that everything else is on order with storage licenses etc.

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## 199p

Yeah i would fight tooth and nail

Don"t want it coming up in 10 years for a reason why they are no longer fit and proper. 

little money spend now is way better then a lot spent down the track.

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## 7mmwsm

If you seriously believe you are correct about the distance the size shot being used wont travel that far get an expert witness, such as   @gundoc to come up with evidence proving so.
Discredit the accusers opinion before it gets traction.

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## Cigar

I think I would be responding to the letter (when it arrives) with one of my own, stating pretty much what you have said here.
Get your family member's response on record with the police as soon as practical before any issues occur (e.g. don't wait until license renewal time).

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## Ross Nolan

https://www.shotgunsportsmagazine.co...statistics.pdf

Less than 400 yards.

It would be nice to see a false complaint charge laid if this is simply a malicious callout.

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## gundoc

#4 steel shot would not exceed 300 metres, more likely about 250.

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## gmm

Section 48 Arms Act

Discharging firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon in or near dwellinghouse or public place
A person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, or to a fine not exceeding $10,000, if the person, without reasonable excuse, discharges a firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon in or near a dwellinghouse or a public place so as to—
(a)
endanger property; or
(b)
endanger, annoy, or frighten any person.

This is the legislation, the burden of proof is on the Police to prove that an offence has been committed.

In this case they need to prove the following.
- Without reasonable excuse
-An intent to endanger property, endanger, annoy or frighten any person.  The intent is cover by the words "so as to"

The shooter had a reasonable excuse, proven by DOC permit and duck hunting licence.
If there was no intent to endanger, annoy or frighten anyone, there is no offence.

There is no such offence as discharging a firearm in an unsafe direction.

If they do send you a letter I would challenge it as if the circumstances are as you describe (not questioning you at all), then it is clear there is no offence.  If you do receive a letter I would dispute it.  To be honest it sounds like the Police in this case are not fully aware of the requirements of the legislation and you should have no problems.
Be interested to see how this goes.
All the best

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## no1_49er

> Make them prove that shot actually hit the house. If it is present it will be in the gutters etc etc.
> 
> Don't just lie down and take it from them


Be mindful that if the complainant happens to be some vindictive type of b------, they could arrange that shot be found in the gutters / on the roof.
I recall that a 22LR cartridge case was "found" at the scene of an alleged murder some years ago at Pukekawa. 
"Stuff" can be planted, to suit the cause.

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## PestNightshooter

This was my first instinct to want to follow up on, but will the police even be interested in or take seriously a false complaint allegation.
And should that matter be raised with the local area police?

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## PestNightshooter

> https://www.shotgunsportsmagazine.co...statistics.pdf
> 
> Less than 400 yards.
> 
> It would be nice to see a false complaint charge laid if this is simply a malicious callout.


Ooops my last reply was supposed to qoute this

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## Moa Hunter

Is there any actual evidence, pellets in the guttering ? I would ask Police ( by email ) to go with you to the complainants property and look for the pellets.

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## PestNightshooter

> I think I would be responding to the letter (when it arrives) with one of my own, stating pretty much what you have said here.
> Get your family member's response on record with the police as soon as practical before any issues occur (e.g. don't wait until license renewal time).


Thanks for your valued opinion, certainly where my thought process is at the moment.

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## PestNightshooter

> #4 steel shot would not exceed 300 metres, more likely about 250.


I agree, I was prepared to allow for tail wind to cover that scenario even though conditions were calm.
If 250mts is used then it is almost 3 times that to the house.

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## PestNightshooter

> Section 48 Arms Act
> 
> Discharging firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon in or near dwellinghouse or public place
> A person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, or to a fine not exceeding $10,000, if the person, without reasonable excuse, discharges a firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon in or near a dwellinghouse or a public place so as to
> (a)
> endanger property; or
> (b)
> endanger, annoy, or frighten any person.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that.

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## PestNightshooter

Another thought, what would the pattern spread be at 736mts....How many pellets would even hit the roof from a shot even if they got there. One or maybe two.

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## outdoorlad

I’d be getting some proof the pellets couldn’t have gone that far, measure the distance on google Earth, etc. and the info above and then I’d go and see the Police and present it before he gets a letter saying his license is gone.

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## PerazziSC3

Since you weren't actually there... I would make darn sure said family member didn't happen to shoot at something Going to the shooting spot or didn't go for a wee wander and fire a shot somewhere you haven't considered, e.g getting a wounded bird or something. Otherwise it's pretty clear cut, but nothing is ever that clear cut... 

Also.dont bring the how wide the spread would have been argument into it... that just discredits the original argument as you are saying it's impossible for a single pellet to hit the roof based on distance

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## PestNightshooter

> I’d be getting some proof the pellets couldn’t have gone that far, measure the distance on google Earth, etc. and the info above and then I’d go and see the Police and present it before he gets a letter saying his license is gone.


The 736mts comes from google earth, already have multiple world wide articles on steel shot max distances....thinking about having a chat with our local officer to make sure the lead officer involved has some insight.

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## vulcannz

Did the police take any samples of the ammo you were firing? no? Probably means they recovered no samples from the complainants house and/or the complainant had no samples to present.

Do everything in writing, as even if you do not get convicted it will all be on record.

Ask for a copy of the complaint.

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## Sako851

Will need to do a offical information act request to get copy
of complaint.

The Journee formula is another statistical way to determine a shotguns shell distance. It says that if pellet diameter (calculated in inches) is multiplied by 2200, then the resulting figure is a hypothetical distance of pellet (calculated in yards). For example, a gun pellet with 0.11 inches diameter covers 242 yards.

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## vulcannz

Also there was something recently in the news about "written letters" and the legality of them, have a read here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...ormal-warnings

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## PestNightshooter

> Also there was something recently in the news about "written letters" and the legality of them, have a read here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...ormal-warnings


Thanks for that info and link.

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## Bol Tackshin

I am no lawyer, but there are serious procedural issues here, if events occurred as reported. 

I would not be asking the police to look for any evidence so long after the fact. Indeed, if shot of any description is found, it just opens up a whole can of worms. 

I would be contacting a lawyer, and, based on the fact that evidence was not collected at the time of the complaint, and based on the fact that a shotgun cannot throw shot that distance, and since your mobile phone can be forensically examined to determine your precise location on the day, that there is grounds to believe that the complaint is spurious and any subsequent sanction by police is groundless. 

Any investigator worth their salt would have looked for evidence of shot in the gutter at the time of the complaint. Since the police inspected your weapons, they should have made a note of the exact type of ammunition you possessed at the time. That would be able to link you to any shot found in the gutter, if the shot matched the ammunition. It may be impossible to determine the weapon that discharged the shot, but the size of any shot found in the gutter, as well as metallic composition, degree of rust, etc. could have conclusively proved whether you could have been the origin of the shot or not. 

Without a record of the ammunition in your possession at the time they spoke to you and inspected your firearms, it would be very difficult to sustain your guilt even if shot was found in the gutter. 

The police could, however, simply point to the fact that the person was simply annoyed - the legal test for this is so wide open it would be virtually impossible to disprove such a claim, and the fact that they made a call to police probably means that they were. However, that is not why they called on you, and they never mentioned the person being annoyed - only that the complainant alleged that shot had struck their roof. 

Irrespective of the above, I would be very careful of shooting at that site again. If I were to do so, I would make sure that every member of the party had a GoPro recording everything that was said and done, every shot taken, and every word spoken to or by police, if that eventuated. Just like a dash cam, the footage could save your bacon, and serve as grounds for dismissal of the complaint against you.

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## Fssprecision

There is a lot to lose if this does not got correctly, without doubt I would contact Nick Taylor, specialist firearms lawyer.  A letter from him wont be cheap but could easily put this to bed before it escalates.

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## Ground Control

Were you the only hunter that had access and was there that day ?
Can the Police and complainant prove it was you and only you there if it’s a public / DOC area ?
Did you admit/say that you shot in the direction of the neighbour ?

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## PestNightshooter

> I am no lawyer, but there are serious procedural issues here, if events occurred as reported. 
> 
> I would not be asking the police to look for any evidence so long after the fact. Indeed, if shot of any description is found, it just opens up a whole can of worms. 
> 
> I would be contacting a lawyer, and, based on the fact that evidence was not collected at the time of the complaint, and based on the fact that a shotgun cannot throw shot that distance, and since your mobile phone can be forensically examined to determine your precise location on the day, that there is grounds to believe that the complaint is spurious and any subsequent sanction by police is groundless. 
> 
> Any investigator worth their salt would have looked for evidence of shot in the gutter at the time of the complaint. Since the police inspected your weapons, they should have made a note of the exact type of ammunition you possessed at the time. That would be able to link you to any shot found in the gutter, if the shot matched the ammunition. It may be impossible to determine the weapon that discharged the shot, but the size of any shot found in the gutter, as well as metallic composition, degree of rust, etc. could have conclusively proved whether you could have been the origin of the shot or not. 
> 
> Without a record of the ammunition in your possession at the time they spoke to you and inspected your firearms, it would be very difficult to sustain your guilt even if shot was found in the gutter. 
> ...


Agreed, reluctant to be bullied out of such a productive spot.

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## Husky1600

Do not ask for evidence! And dont tell them that shot cannot physically go that far etc etc. That is all information that you can pull out if it should proceed any further. Which will be valuable to prove innocence of any crime. Keep all of that info and knowledge to yourselves. And write down everything that was said, and done. Write down officers names and numbers. Write down conversations - everything. Cos if it should proceed to court, if you have taken the time to record all the details, and can prove that you did it on the day or the day after, then that written information is admissible as evidence. Keep a copy of that info, and post another copy to yourself and dont open it upon receiving it - proof that you did it at the time of the incident.

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## PestNightshooter

> Were you the only hunter that had access and was there that day ?
> Can the Police and complainant prove it was you and only you there if it’s a public / DOC area ?
> Did you admit/say that you shot in the direction of the neighbour ?


On this night only one shooter present, Sunday evening one week ago 4 legal/legitimate shooters present in area.
And yes pointed out highly unlikely on direction of shooting towards house, as the birds were almost 100% presenting from downstream. (so 90 degrees to house direction)
Complainant farm boundary 250mts from shooting position, apparently came to boundary to check shooters position before contacting Police.

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## Maca49

> Section 48 Arms Act
> 
> Discharging firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon in or near dwellinghouse or public place
> A person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, or to a fine not exceeding $10,000, if the person, without reasonable excuse, discharges a firearm, airgun, pistol, or restricted weapon in or near a dwellinghouse or a public place so as to
> (a)
> endanger property; or
> (b)
> endanger, annoy, or frighten any person.
> 
> ...


Thats interesting, the council or DOC I think, about twice a year, about 11 pm let strip at the ponds about 3-400 metres from my place. Theres two or three barrages, Im guessing they are shooting on the ground. I can lay in bed and judge the distance and direction. We get no notice this is going to happen. 111 next time and a complaint me thinks.
On Sunday, after opening day, there was one solitary shot from the same place about midnight, 
Maybe a pissed off shooter getting a few on the water? :Grin:

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## Cigar

> ...And dont tell them that shot cannot physically go that far etc etc. That is all information that you can pull out if it should proceed any further. Which will be valuable to prove innocence of any crime. Keep all of that info and knowledge to yourselves. ...


Why keep secret evidence of innocence until a prosecution, when you can use it to avoid the prosecution altogether?

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## Black Rabbit

This sort of thing, situations like this, always troubles me, let me feel anxiety when going to somewhere I am not familiar with, Even I followed all the rules, but still there are chances of getting called and the cost is I can `t bear. Thus, any suggestions...

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## PestNightshooter

> Why keep secret evidence of innocence until a prosecution, when you can use it to avoid the prosecution altogether?


Agreed again, this is not a TV show.
I very well would of usually been present which is another reason I am going to fund whatever needs to be done and follow this through.
Had I been present and it turns out this complaint does or could lead to license revocation that would of been my income gone from an industry I been in full time for 35+ years.

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## Woody

Darned if I know how a pellet can be matched to an exact gun or time. This may be classed as a vexatious complaint and wSting police time.

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## dannyb

> This was my first instinct to want to follow up on, but will the police even be interested in or take seriously a false complaint allegation.
> And should that matter be raised with the local area police?


I would

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## Tahr

This cant be true. I have never had steel shot reach any duck what so-ever. And some of them have been very close.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## gmm

Hi Guys

Just to clarify something here.  With legislation in order for an offence to be committed, there has to be evidence to confirm that each and every ingredient which constitutes the offence is present.  It is important to break each part of the offence down to understand what has to be proven for an offence to have been committed. (see the wording in my earlier post)
First ingredient is "without reasonable excuse".  In this case the shooter had a DOC permit and a licence allowing them to hunt ducks.  That is a reasonable excuse, so no offence committed.  There is simply on offence committed here as there is a reasonable excuse for the discharge of the firearm.
Irrespective of if anyone was annoyed or even endangered,  there is a clear reasonable excuse.
There is no offence here, end of story as all the ingredients which constitute an offence cannot be proven.

I cannot see this going any further as the shooter under the circumstances outlined as not committed any offence and the Police on review will clearly see this.  They cannot issue a warning or anything if no offence has been committed.

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## vulcannz

> Why keep secret evidence of innocence until a prosecution, when you can use it to avoid the prosecution altogether?


It sounds like there is no prosecution, only a written warning which is potentially worse than going through a prosecution which means you have no right to defend your innocence. A letter pointing out the impossibility of the claim and demanding that any formal warning be withdrawn would be the best action.

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## BSA270

> There is a lot to lose if this does not got correctly, without doubt I would contact Nick Taylor, specialist firearms lawyer.  A letter from him wont be cheap but could easily put this to bed before it escalates.


Nicholas J.B.Taylor  www.firearmslawyer.co.nz n.taylor@civicchambers.co.nz

As recommended by COLFO. They emailed out all relevant info quite a while ago re what to do if you are contacted by Police regarding any firearms matters. Good luck with this matter.

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## tac a1

> It sounds like there is no prosecution, only a written warning which is potentially worse than going through a prosecution which means you have no right to defend your innocence. A letter pointing out the impossibility of the claim and demanding that any formal warning be withdrawn would be the best action.


Agreed. That's the starting point. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it until you need to. 

Yes, the Police cannot issue you with a warning letter unless there is an offence that has been committed and can be proven. 

And lets face it. The Police are not going to conduct a forensic investigation with shot sizes and rust comparisons etc. This is hardly a murder scene. 

Keep things in perspective. Wait until any such letter arrives and then deal with it

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## Mr300WSM

> Nicholas J.B.Taylor  www.firearmslawyer.co.nz n.taylor@civicchambers.co.nz
> 
> As recommended by COLFO. They emailed out all relevant info quite a while ago re what to do if you are contacted by Police regarding any firearms matters. Good luck with this matter.


I’d be using the expert if it was me should be able to nip it in the butt. Good to see they had everything stored correctly and all the permits they needed, just means the police couldn’t do anything on the spot.

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## Mr300WSM

And six officers is a bit over the top there was a gang funeral at a bar by my house in the weekend not a cop to be seen. Gangsters riding there motorbikes up and down the roads disrupting traffic. Would have liked 3 cop cars and 6 officers around here

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## Savage1

FFS don't waste money on a lawyer.

Do an OIA request so you can ascertain what the complaint is.

If the complaint is BS then write a letter explaining your reasoning and not accepting the warning.

If you don't accept the warning they have no choice but to either charge in court or get rid of the warning.

Just remember that you've only heard one side of the story.

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## Maca49

> This cant be true. I have never had steel shot reach any duck what so-ever. And some of them have been very close.


Haha @Tahr many years ago as a young fellow, I was hare shooting with some mates up a valley at the end of the Kaituna Rd out of Masterton. A large flock of ducks came down the valley at 500 ft. I raise my old single shot Hollis hammer gun, with a round of orange eley 1-1/8 oz load and pulled the trigger sending all that #4 shot flying skywards, with my mates pissing themselves. Well bugger me, a mallard curled up and came earthwards into the pig fern, never to be seen again. Still rate it as my best every shotgun shot.

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## Tentman

> Haha @Tahr many years ago as a young fellow, I was hare shooting with some mates up a valley at the end of the Kaituna Rd out of Masterton. A large flock of ducks came down the valley at 500 ft. I raise my old single shot Hollis hammer gun, with a round of orange eley 1-1/8 oz load and pulled the trigger sending all that #4 shot flying skywards, with my mates pissing themselves. Well bugger me, a mallard curled up and came earthwards into the pig fern, never to be seen again. Still rate it as my best every shotgun shot.


And 3 miles away some bugger got a bit of shot i  his eye and started a massive manhunt . . .

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## BRADS

> FFS don't waste money on a lawyer.
> 
> Do an OIA request so you can ascertain what the complaint is.
> 
> If the complaint is BS then write a letter explaining your reasoning and not accepting the warning.
> 
> If you don't accept the warning they have no choice but to either charge in court or get rid of the warning.
> 
> Just remember that you've only heard one side of the story.


Nice 
I was about to tag you 
I suggest the op follows this advice 

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

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## Jaco Goosen

Sometimes and now is one of those times, when there should be said: proof it. 

Your family member should be OK, but her cant just let it go and hope for the best.

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## Micky Duck

talk to your local copper...you know the fella you always make a point to give a wave and say hello to.....sit down and have a yak,,,,fill them in on details and see what they have to say.
there is a whole heap of good advice here.

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## grandpamac

> Interested in opinions on this and where/what it will lead to and if some proactive actions should be taken now or wait for letter to arrive and deal with then depending on what letter says.
> Some quick facts around incident.
> DOC ground encompassing riverbed (DOC Game bird Permit for area held and shown to Police)
> Firearms license valid (Valid and viewed by Police)
> Duck shooting license valid.
> Firearm locked in case and opened for inspection by request for Police. Ammunition stored correctly.
> This is rural environment, maybe total 5 farm houses within 3kms
> Been shooting this area for 5yrs no issues until now.
> Police... 3 cars...6 officers at exit gate from riverbed. Complaint about unsafe shooting, pellets have hit farm house roof.
> ...


Hatchers Notebook gave te max range of lead no 4 shot at 286 yards so in line with the 350 m figure. You have to allow for bouncing of hard surfaces though which will increase the range. 700 m is a stretch though.
GPM.

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## Woody

Keep in mind also the the F&Game considered "safe" firing zone between mai mais is 90metres FOR BB LEAD SHOT and it's steel weight per pellet equivalent. Steel#4 would consierably less danger range.

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## 7mmwsm

> Keep in mind also the the F&Game considered "safe" firing zone between mai mais is 90metres FOR BB LEAD SHOT and it's steel weight per pellet equivalent. Steel#4 would consierably less danger range.


My dad dropped a parry stone dead at ninety meters with lead BB's.

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## gundoc

> Hatchers Notebook gave te max range of lead no 4 shot at 286 yards so in line with the 350 m figure. You have to allow for bouncing of hard surfaces though which will increase the range. 700 m is a stretch though.
> GPM.


At the maximum range shot comes down almost vertically and at low velocity. Even if it did bounce it would still remain within 300 metres. Remember to deduct about 10% from lead shot figures because steel does not carry as well as lead.

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## Tedz50

https://www.odt.co.nz/rural-life/rur...ooting-mai-mai
Not a good look for shooters in general

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## PestNightshooter

> https://www.odt.co.nz/rural-life/rur...ooting-mai-mai
> Not a good look for shooters in general


And what has that got to do with this and all other legal game bird shooting.

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## PestNightshooter

> And what has that got to do with this and all other legal game bird shooting.


Sorry I did not word that very well,
maybe that incident needs it own thread rather than be entangled in this one.

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## Allgood

Having been through a situation similar to what the OP posted, my advice is get in early and argue your case...
This is what happened to me about 12 years back.
Being a wildlife ranger, I got notified by F&G that the local council rubbish/recycling place had a problem with Pukekos that were pulling out plants in the educational facility on the property......(Schools visited the place and the kids planted vegetables etc in recycled waste then came back a few weeks/months later to harvest what they had planted.)
After getting the required permit, the only way to deal with the problem was to use a suppressed 22 with subsonics and because of the terrain, there was only one direction available to shoot. This direction was into a 25m high soft earth bank with trees lining 3 sides giving a firing lane about 30 m wide and about 50m long.  After setting up a 'Hide' before sunrise the following morning I duly dealt to about 25 pukeko's between 7.15 am and 7,45 that turned up, collected the carcasses and left.
Got back home and about 3 hours later one of my staff ( home business) said the Police were out back wanting to talk to me. It transpired that a person who was kayaking a local creek, and who was opposed to the pukeko cull had laid a formal complaint that they had been shot at, with the bullet hitting the water right next to the kayak. The Police then went on to say that the sound of the shot was witnessed by 2 other people who also heard the bullet hit the water. I told them that wasnt possible and described to them the area and the setup..then after they had checked out my licence, storage etc I accompanied them back to the scene and showed them the setup. They then left to discuss the matter with their Snr Sgt.

They arrived back later that afternoon with a formal letter of warning and told me that it would go on my FAL record. I refused to accept the warning and went down to the local station to talk to the Snr Sgt. The upshot was that the following morning I met the Snr and the 2 officers at the site at 7am along with my rifle/suppressor etc and showed them exactly what I had done....including firing 2 live rounds. ( Got 2 more Pukeko's btw) The police were standing about 30m behind me in the direction I had, according to the complainant, been shooting. They didnt even hear the sound of the the suppressed shots due to the shredding machine at the green waste section munching greenwaste along with all the other machinery that had started working. 
To cut a long story short, the police withdrew the warning letter, apologized and went back to interview the complainant and witnesses.....When they pointed out that the gate log showed my entry and exit times between 6.15 and 7.45, the complainant was adamant that the event took place between 8.30 to and 8.45 and that even if they dismissed the timing aspect, due to the noise of the the machinery there was no way they could have heard anything let alone a suppressed 22 from 300m away they ended up giving the complainant a warning letter for making a frivolous complaint and wasting their time.
I also asked for and got a letter stating the outcome of the investigation and stuck it to the back wall inside one of my gun safes in case the matter surfaced when I did my next FAL renewal. ( It didnt)

My suggestion is to gather the facts, present them in a concise and logical way and do not accept any liability whatsoever. It will save time, money and stress in the long run.

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## stug

The complaint can’t have been too worried if they walked closer to the shooting to work out where it was coming from. If you were worried about your safety you would not go any closer.

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## Chunk

This is interesting reading. One of my lads got in a bit of bother doing stupid shit in his younger days ( burnout with car). I talked to a lawyer at the local rugby club. First thing she said was “ has he talked to the police”. “ never admit guilt”. So from that I would take it that it is up to them to prove it was even you.? To prove it even happened.?
Would the complainant go to court to testify etc. just a few thoughts and all the best.

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## PestNightshooter

> Having been through a situation similar to what the OP posted, my advice is get in early and argue your case...
> This is what happened to me about 12 years back.
> Being a wildlife ranger, I got notified by F&G that the local council rubbish/recycling place had a problem with Pukekos that were pulling out plants in the educational facility on the property......(Schools visited the place and the kids planted vegetables etc in recycled waste then came back a few weeks/months later to harvest what they had planted.)
> After getting the required permit, the only way to deal with the problem was to use a suppressed 22 with subsonics and because of the terrain, there was only one direction available to shoot. This direction was into a 25m high soft earth bank with trees lining 3 sides giving a firing lane about 30 m wide and about 50m long.  After setting up a 'Hide' before sunrise the following morning I duly dealt to about 25 pukeko's between 7.15 am and 7,45 that turned up, collected the carcasses and left.
> Got back home and about 3 hours later one of my staff ( home business) said the Police were out back wanting to talk to me. It transpired that a person who was kayaking a local creek, and who was opposed to the pukeko cull had laid a formal complaint that they had been shot at, with the bullet hitting the water right next to the kayak. The Police then went on to say that the sound of the shot was witnessed by 2 other people who also heard the bullet hit the water. I told them that wasnt possible and described to them the area and the setup..then after they had checked out my licence, storage etc I accompanied them back to the scene and showed them the setup. They then left to discuss the matter with their Snr Sgt.
> 
> They arrived back later that afternoon with a formal letter of warning and told me that it would go on my FAL record. I refused to accept the warning and went down to the local station to talk to the Snr Sgt. The upshot was that the following morning I met the Snr and the 2 officers at the site at 7am along with my rifle/suppressor etc and showed them exactly what I had done....including firing 2 live rounds. ( Got 2 more Pukeko's btw) The police were standing about 30m behind me in the direction I had, according to the complainant, been shooting. They didnt even hear the sound of the the suppressed shots due to the shredding machine at the green waste section munching greenwaste along with all the other machinery that had started working. 
> To cut a long story short, the police withdrew the warning letter, apologized and went back to interview the complainant and witnesses.....When they pointed out that the gate log showed my entry and exit times between 6.15 and 7.45, the complainant was adamant that the event took place between 8.30 to and 8.45 and that even if they dismissed the timing aspect, due to the noise of the the machinery there was no way they could have heard anything let alone a suppressed 22 from 300m away they ended up giving the complainant a warning letter for making a frivolous complaint and wasting their time.
> I also asked for and got a letter stating the outcome of the investigation and stuck it to the back wall inside one of my gun safes in case the matter surfaced when I did my next FAL renewal. ( It didnt)
> ...


Thanks for sharing your experience, appreciated and enlightening.

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## Bol Tackshin

@Allgood - that was indeed an interesting post. The concerning bit is the effect of accepting the warning letter when renewing firearms licence. It will be too late to appeal or protest your innocence at that point.

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## tac a1

Wow thanks for sharing that Allgood. Just goes to show that things sometimes go very very wrong. 

Trouble is that the Police can only go on the information that is given to them. They don't seem to have the time to investigate anything properly these days, hence these terrible results and experiences that people are having with them. 

Doesn't do them any favors IMO.

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## Maca49

> And 3 miles away some bugger got a bit of shot i  his eye and started a massive manhunt . . .


And when I worked at Borthwicks Waingawa, old Jim and his mates would be shooting ducks from the Mai Mai in the swamp, by the potable water dam. Every shot landed lead on the smoko room, garage and blacksmiths roof. Everybody carried on as normal, nobody died!

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## Bill999

> https://www.shotgunsportsmagazine.co...statistics.pdf
> 
> Less than 400 yards.
> 
> It would be nice to see a false complaint charge laid if this is simply a malicious callout.


push for a false complaint and wasting police time 

push reeeeeely hard as physics are on your side

better yet ask someone smart to do the math and check the wind conditions of the day ie wind speed and direction

draw and quater them for trying to weaponise the police and do not let them escape punisment

write a letter to the local paper

but first get your facts straight with MV and BC of said projectiles

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## Sideshow

> Be mindful that if the complainant happens to be some vindictive type of b------, they could arrange that shot be found in the gutters / on the roof.


Thought you the same as above. Just to head this off, make sure you save or take picks of the shells that you used. Ie shot type and size. That way I doubt that they will get it right. Also dose anyone else shoot in the area? How they can go about proving that its from your gun I would really like to see.

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## PestNightshooter

> Thought you the same as above. Just to head this off, make sure you save or take picks of the shells that you used. Ie shot type and size. That way I doubt that they will get it right. Also dose anyone else shoot in the area? How they can go about proving that it’s from your gun I would really like to see.


Multiple farm ponds and a great duck creek through private property are far closer to the house than where we shoot, lots of shooting done in area.

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## Sideshow

Really good post here guys as I sit reading and waiting for the last leg to London from Dubai. 
Might pay to get someone to put a sticky on this thread.

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## PestNightshooter

During the process of writing down notes while memory was fresh something else has jumped out, one officer questioned about the "volume" of shooting.
They appear to have been concerned by either (1) loudness of shooting or (2) number of shots being fired (bear in mind 29 ducks were shot but no more than 40rnds were fired)
This line of enquiry makes the complaint sound even more suspect to me.
At one point was told had not committed any offence and could leave...then other officer (who was the only officer that referred to pellets landing on house roof) stated he would be getting sent a letter. (First contact officers said they were responding to shooting in riverbed "most likely duck shooter" call.
 Implications are shotguns are too loud, or you cannot shoot the legal limit of birds because it requires too many shots to be fired creating noise nuisance?

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## Micky Duck

nah...its Karens,who buy a house in the country and get all upset when tiddles the cat/dog/goldfish gets upset by the noise of shots going off...Tiddles is probably thinking its all good fun and wants to join in...... I was asked about this senario by a good mate DURING opening weekend from other side of fence angle...I SUGGESTED to put dog in wagon and go for a drive....or will be come the "bitch of a neighbour" forever afterwards.....MOST places will be luck to be shot 4-5 weekends a season.... if Karen turned up the radio Tiddles wouldnt even notice.

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## gundoc

> How they can go about proving that it’s from your gun I would really like to see.


That is simply not possible with shotguns. Matching a fired case to a gun is possible, and matching a wad and shot to a fired case is partially possible, but matching shot to a specific gun is impossible. I think this needs to be taken further as the complainant appears to be deliberately trying to 'set up' the shooter and waste Police time just to make a political point. I despise thieves, but they stand on the shoulders of scum who are happy to sacrifice innocent people for political or personal ends. My services are available if needed.

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## Sideshow

Yeah @gundoc it was a rhetorical reply. No rifling no proof. Really liked your response to the ops questions awesome  :Have A Nice Day:

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## PestNightshooter

> That is simply not possible with shotguns. Matching a fired case to a gun is possible, and matching a wad and shot to a fired case is partially possible, but matching shot to a specific gun is impossible. I think this needs to be taken further as the complainant appears to be deliberately trying to 'set up' the shooter and waste Police time just to make a political point. I despise thieves, but they stand on the shoulders of scum who are happy to sacrifice innocent people for political or personal ends. My services are available if needed.


 Really hoping this does not turn into a legal battle but up for it if required and while I am not aware of what services you may be able to help with I really appreciate your offer as I imply from others comments you could be very helpful.
Still feel need to receive letter to see what it says and plan/move/respond from there.

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## Sideshow

@PestNightshooter also pay close attention to what was said in post #47 with regards to written warning and accepting/Not accepting it!
Very important!

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## HNTMAD

Must be some steel pellets in the gutters

Sent from my SM-G996B using Tapatalk

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## PestNightshooter

> @PestNightshooter also pay close attention to what was said in post #47 with regards to written warning and accepting/Not accepting it!
> Very important!


Yes, noted. Thanks.

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## Moa Hunter

> Must be some steel pellets in the gutters
> 
> Sent from my SM-G996B using Tapatalk


Sneak round and chuck a few lead ones up there reckon

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## Cordite

> push for a false complaint and wasting police time 
> 
> push reeeeeely hard as physics are on your side
> 
> better yet ask someone smart to do the math and check the wind conditions of the day ie wind speed and direction
> 
> draw and quater them for trying to weaponise the police and do not let them escape punisment
> 
> write a letter to the local paper
> ...


AND don't stop going to that shooting spot.

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## Cordite

> That is simply not possible with shotguns. Matching a fired case to a gun is possible, and matching a wad and shot to a fired case is partially possible, but matching shot to a specific gun is impossible. I think this needs to be taken further as the complainant appears to be deliberately trying to 'set up' the shooter and waste Police time just to make a political point. I despise thieves, but they stand on the shoulders of scum who are happy to sacrifice innocent people for political or personal ends. My services are available if needed.


Yes, neither with steel or lead pellets when shot in a cup.

Smoothbore SGs and homemade pistols do however leave a mark, unlikely to be gone into by police unless dealing with a murder.
https://scholarlycommons.law.northwe...8&context=jclc

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## T.FOYE

Stick with it man. Its gonna be a bit of a stressful time but you'll get through it in the end. I reckon they would be unsuccessful to pursue this all the way to court 
Even if they do, after interviewing everyone its very likely they will just drop it cold. You cant go to court with hearsay and subjective opinions as evidence. Not when the physical evidence clearly exonerates you.

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## Moa Hunter

I have had two complaints made against me regarding the firing of firearms on my property - Both " Gunfire frightening us etc, bullets hitting trees above head", made by deranged neighbor.
Remarkable hearing considering only 22 subs fired through a suppressor / dates wrong etc Police said they could do nothing about fictional complaints and had to attend. 
So I went to the local Court and got all the info regarding a 'Non Harassment Order'. Told the Police that that is what would happen next. 
Police visited the neighbor at my suggestion, and explained the situation - result no more trouble.
If in the OP's situation I would go back to the location with a credible person GPS position and shoot, knowing that you can make a complaint of harassment at the court if it continues. You can also get the complainants ph no and let them know that you are off for a hunt and record the time of the call etc in your diary

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## Sideshow

Now there is some top advise ^^^ nice one

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## BRADS

Is there any update on this ? 

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

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## PestNightshooter

> Is there any update on this ? 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk


So far no letter has arrived, we feel we have our ducks in a row ready for if/when it does.

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## Savage1

> So far no letter has arrived, we feel we have our ducks in a row ready for if/when it does.


Wait a couple of months and do an OIA, regardless of whether a letter is received or not.

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## Savage1

> So far no letter has arrived, we feel we have our ducks in a row ready for if/when it does.


Wait a couple of months and do an OIA, regardless of whether a letter is received or not.

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## Sasquatch

> That is simply not possible with shotguns. Matching a fired case to a gun is possible, and matching a wad and shot to a fired case is partially possible, but matching shot to a specific gun is impossible. I think this needs to be taken further as the complainant appears to be deliberately trying to 'set up' the shooter and waste Police time just to make a political point. I despise thieves, but they stand on the shoulders of scum who are happy to sacrifice innocent people for political or personal ends. My services are available if needed.


Indeed. It is deplorable behavior resembled from falsehoods by these pests that make our sport a misery. To try and go through the dealings & stress, just to sort out a big pile of Bull-Shit.

At the end of the day, we just want to get on with it.

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## Seventenths

Here's a different story from a different angle.

My elderly mother in her 70's who resides by herself on a small life style block of land just east of Hamilton, she resides there with a few chickens, sheep, goats, couple of cats. She's no stranger to guns as she grew up in Otago as her father was a rabbiter so she's no stranger to hunting and guns, she even taught me how to skin rabbits and pluck ducks... how many mothers teach their sons that as mind you i never had a dad!

Mums house is pretty much next to the road, on the other side of the road is a kiwi fruit orchard which has an irrigation pond which would be no more than 90-110 mtrs from her door step. Also running alongside the road where the irrigation pond is are high voltage power lines.

In past years some muppets have shot on the pond on opening day which she's complained to the owners of the property who couldn't give a shit. This year they did it again so she called the police who showed up and promptly shut their shoot down and rightfully so as they were metres from the road with a number of lifestyle blocks with people living in close proximity with another two houses all within 250-300 mtrs of that pond.

She said pellets fell on her roof peppering the front side of the house hitting the windows and wall.

She's never been against duck shooting but that is not a pond you can safely shoot from.

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## No.3

As a young fella I had the opportunity to clean some pesky bunnies off a local small golf course as they kept making extra holes in the greens...

After the night's shoot (not that successful I might add) went home and packed up the air rifle and rimfire and after we sat down for a cup of hot milo the local blue knocked on the door.  Seems some idiot went and did a drive by in the local campground and ended up striking a caravan (unsure if intent or by design).  We got questioned very closely, and after explaining the parts of the course we shot using the course map the rest of the story came out with the shot up caravan.  Cop was happy, as our shots would have needed to turn 100deg, travel up, through a pine plantation, drop back down and then level out and turn another 90deg corner to go through the window of the caravan.  Cop then proceeded to say that he was 99.9% sure it wasn't us "but a bit of a fright would be character building" - this is the same cop that kept his steelcaps shiny as he reckoned it made for a less painful trip up your bum.  

I can tell you from that though, it is bloody stressful when these things happen to you and you've done everything right that you thought of to ensure everything is safe...

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## PestNightshooter

Finally a conclusion to this event.
Discussion this week with senior officer present.
No warning letter to be issued.
Acknowledged no offence committed.
Acknowledged all actions were legal including praise for firearm correctly stored in vehicle when initial contact made with Police.
So back to shooting this spot next season but will have a ring around reminding local land owners we are going to be there pre season.

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## Maca49

But no apology?

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## muzza

before next season commences a personal visit to them wot complained , explaining what you will be doing and that it is completely legal, and a suggestion to mind their own business , perhaps?

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## Moa Hunter

Would it be possible to notify the senior Police officer in advance each time you will be shooting ?

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## Lauries Hut

> Would it be possible to notify the senior Police officer in advance each time you will be shooting ?


I do pest control work (deer) on a doc block near Auckland. We always notify police, and put up signs weeks in advance.
We dont want to come back to AR 15s pointing at us. 
Forgot to call in our exit one night recently and had them phoning at 1am to see if we were ok. 
Works well, because they do get calls from concerned people.

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## Micky Duck

> before next season commences a personal visit to them wot complained , explaining what you will be doing and that it is completely legal, and a suggestion to mind their own business , perhaps?


and a suggestion to...turn the stereo up a bit and give the pets some calming drops the night before and continue in the morning....

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## Sideshow

As you have had trouble I'd definitley put a call into the loacl cops before going out.
Also if your confronted by anyone. Get your phone out and film them. Dont say anything. Helps keep you safe.

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