# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Sick of it all. Off to war.

## tararua

I am writing to you all in the hope of revving up the internet hate machine even more. I know a lot of you have been contacting local representatives lately, I ask you to double your efforts.

Police Association, who may represent a few senior members of NZPD, are out of touch with majority of officers on front line.

They are focusing on criminalizing law abiding citizens, and getting speed tickets to plug their leaky revenue. This is at the expense of the meth and related burglary epidemic. Our country is drowning in drugs, my scientist friend at a university has been spectroscopying synthetic cannabis lately, they have found lots of PCP or angeldust turning up in it.

My solution, call, send letters and berate our local representatives. I am going to be calling as many as possible over the next two days. I am not going to stop until I am asked to stop calling.

I am going to be asking why Chris Cahill's focus is on law abiding gun owners in the midst of what is possibly our worst drug crisis. I am going to ask why foreign fishing boats and mega offshore processing ships plunder our waters. I am going to ask why we don't scan incoming mail under a certain size/value for drugs. I am going to ask if the firearms report will be done and dusted by the election, or will it loom waiting for the next gun grabbers to come along in the next government. I am going to ask why are we putting 90,000 immigrants per year first and citizens second. I am going to ask if we can turn off the immigrant taps so one day I might be able to get a job and buy a house. I am going to ask why WINZ is shipping in foreign workers for freezing works while I am a trained butcher who was blackballed by alliance group limited (after they chopped my finger off and sacked me to avoid liability, no compensation) and can't get a job in the industry. I am going to ask where are all the jobs to stop kids turning to crime for work.

Why the heck can't we patrol our waters? We have how many private citizens in the jet boat club, but not one bloody speed boat in our navy to patrol what is going to be one of the worlds largest marine territories.

This is no longer about police association and a few lone anti gunners. It is about police not being able to do their job and this place turning to shit.

If anyone else has some good questions I can ask I am all ears. I am going to dedicate my full energy to this and hopefully make NZ better than I found it.

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## northdude

best of luck maybe join one of the partys as well

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## Dead is better

Me: "What's silly enough to still be in my fridge this fine morning"

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## matto1234

Dont forget giving away our fresh water resources for zero return in the country

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## Maca49

> best of luck maybe join one of the partys as well


Some days its good to be older and able to leave it to you young bucks, full of energy!!!  :Cool:  Get up em!!

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## Maca49

> Dont forget giving away our fresh water resources for zero return in the country


Who needs water when theres whiskey and coke!!

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## systolic

Looking at their web page, the police association say they represent 10 900 members both constables and police employees. That hardly looks like representing a few senior managers who are out of touch with the front line.

Why don't you spend more time looking for a job than staying up late at night ranting on the internet?

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## Danger Mouse

> Looking at their web page, the police association say they represent 10 900 members both constables and police employees. That hardly looks like representing a few senior managers who are out of touch with the front line.
> 
> Why don't you spend more time looking for a job than staying up late at night ranting on the internet?


are you always such a misery guts? every time somebody posts about tyring to help the cause you are doom and gloom. its boring.

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## northdude

As has been said before get back under your bridge

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## Tahr

> I am writing to you all in the hope of revving up the internet hate machine even more. I know a lot of you have been contacting local representatives lately, I ask you to double your efforts.
> 
> Police Association, who may represent a few senior members of NZPD, are out of touch with majority of officers on front line.
> 
> They are focusing on criminalizing law abiding citizens, and getting speed tickets to plug their leaky revenue. This is at the expense of the meth and related burglary epidemic. Our country is drowning in drugs, my scientist friend at a university has been spectroscopying synthetic cannabis lately, they have found lots of PCP or angeldust turning up in it.
> 
> My solution, call, send letters and *berate* our local representatives. I am going to be calling as many as possible over the next two days. *I am not going to stop until I am asked to stop calling.*
> 
> I am going to be asking why Chris Cahill's focus is on law abiding gun owners in the midst of what is possibly our worst drug crisis. I am going to ask why foreign fishing boats and mega offshore processing ships plunder our waters. I am going to ask why we don't scan incoming mail under a certain size/value for drugs. I am going to ask if the firearms report will be done and dusted by the election, or will it loom waiting for the next gun grabbers to come along in the next government. I am going to ask why are we putting 90,000 immigrants per year first and citizens second. I am going to ask if we can turn off the immigrant taps so one day I might be able to get a job and buy a house. I am going to ask why WINZ is shipping in foreign workers for freezing works while I am a trained butcher who was blackballed by alliance group limited (after they chopped my finger off and sacked me to avoid liability, no compensation) and can't get a job in the industry. I am going to ask where are all the jobs to stop kids turning to crime for work.
> ...


I admire your passion and enthusiasm, but I'm not certain that this is the correct approach. Something more measured might be more effective. The antis are hanging out for us to confirm their negative frames about firearm owners. And on the other issues you will sound just as repetitive as all of the others who share your views.

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## systolic

> are you always such a misery guts? every time somebody posts about tyring to help the cause you are doom and gloom. its boring.


Helping the cause?

Calling for concealed carry in New Zealand and blaming foreigners for him not being able to get a job?

Anti immigration, big chips on his shoulder and owns guns. Make us all look like loonies. Not what we need.

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## Tahr

> Helping the cause?
> 
> Calling for concealed carry in New Zealand and blaming foreigners for him not being able to get a job?
> 
> Anti immigration, big chips on his shoulder and owns guns. Make us all look like loonies. Not what we need.


At times systolic I really do think that you are off on a tangent and completely out of step, but on this one I'm inclined to agree with you.

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## northdude

Oh well let's all bag the guy and do nothing our selves I may or may not agree with they way he's going about it but but at least it looks like he's going to get off his Arse and give it a go

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## Tommy

> At times systolic I really do think that you are off on a tangent and completely out of step, but on this one I'm inclined to agree with you.


The problem is, if he does make a good point (and I agree this is one of them), because he's spent the rest of the time being a dick for the sake of it, no-one wants to hear it. You reap what you sow I'm afraid.

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## systolic

> Oh well let's all bag the guy and do nothing our selves I may or may not agree with they way he's going about it but but at least it looks like he's going to get off his Arse and give it a go


He would be better off putting the effort in to get himself a job than wanting to try to solve the whole country's problems, as he sees them, in one go.

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## northdude

Well that's your opinion and he has one as well  :Have A Nice Day:  how about showing him how its done then

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## Maca49

If you cannot get a job, sit down and have a bloody good look at yourself and sort what YOUR problem is, because most employers are looking for GOOD people and there maybe your prob. Its like owning firearms, jobs are not a right, they are a priviledge!! IMHO.

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## systolic

I have enough trouble with my own staff's problems without looking after anyone else's.

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## northdude

> If you cannot get a job, sit down and have a bloody good look at yourself and sort what YOUR problem is, because most employers are looking for GOOD people and there maybe your prob. Its like owning firearms, jobs are not a right, they are a priviledge!! IMHO.


There's that as well

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## systolic

> If you cannot get a job, sit down and have a bloody good look at yourself and sort what YOUR problem is, because most employers are looking for GOOD people and there maybe your prob. Its like owning firearms, jobs are not a right, they are a priviledge!! IMHO.


You might have to post this later in the day. He won't be up yet. 

He's been up late spouting his agenda about concealed carry and castle doctrine. 



Although I'm not sure how he's going to buy a castle without a job.

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## Boaraxa

Have a chat to oncle winny he,l sort it out

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## Sidney

> If you cannot get a job, sit down and have a bloody good look at yourself and sort what YOUR problem is, because most employers are looking for GOOD people and there maybe your prob. Its like owning firearms, jobs are not a right, they are a priviledge!! IMHO.


An opinion is evidence/information that has bearing on the issue.  Before it can be evidence it has to be relevant and admissible.  On that basis you are still wrong about firearm ownership, it is a legal right recognised in legislation.  So your opinion is worthless and not relevant - so not admissible, it also has no weight because you are just incorrect.

You are however correct about obtaining a job.  Its not a right.  Once you have it of course your ability to keep it is controlled by legal rights that apply to both parties.

Opinions are not feelings, nor are they unjustiable thoughts.  Opinions are information and analysis coming from competance and capacity, that has bearing on the issue.  It has to be relevant before it can be offered.  It shouldn't be offered unless it comes from competance.

So you are partly right about one aspect.  That would get you about 12.5%.... a bare pass mark for a quarter of the topics covered.

Why is it everyone seems to believe that their opinion actually matters, when all they are doing is saying what they want to think, rather than what actually is?

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## Tahr

> An opinion is evidence/information that has bearing on the issue.  Before it can be evidence it has to be relevant and admissible.  On that basis you are still wrong about firearm ownership, it is a legal right recognised in legislation.  So your opinion is worthless and not relevant - so not admissible, it also has no weight because you are just incorrect.
> 
> You are however correct about obtaining a job.  Its not a right.  Once you have it of course your ability to keep it is controlled by legal rights that apply to both parties.
> 
> Opinions are not feelings, nor are they unjustiable thoughts.  Opinions are information and analysis coming from competance and capacity, that has bearing on the issue.  It has to be relevant before it can be offered.  It shouldn't be offered unless it comes from competance.
> 
> So you are partly right about one aspect.  That would get you about 12.5%.... a bare pass mark for a quarter of the topics covered.
> 
> Why is it everyone seems to believe that their opinion actually matters, when all they are doing is saying what they want to think, rather than what actually is?


And dear Sidney before you can become any real practical use, that academic helicopter of yours is going to have to land.  :Thumbsup:

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## Sidney

Given the public perception, I am a lone voice....   :Grin: 

its all just so sloppy, and I reserve the right to exercise my grumpy old man about the idiotic public perception fed by stupid media that somehow everyones opinions matter.  Accurate, relavent and competant opinions matter... the rest is just useless white noise, that demeans relevant contribution and promotes misunderstanding.

Now while firearms ownership is a legal right, I choose to think of it as both a priviledge and a responsibility.  That promotes me to be careful and thankful for our legally recognised freedoms.

But don't let some knobby policeman tell me that my legal rights are a priviledge exercised at their discretion.  Wrong, they are agent for society to ensure that I meet the requirements of the law in order for me to be granted my rights under the law.

The finer points of that are of course lost on the masses with opinions.

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## MassiveAttack

> Who needs water when theres whiskey and coke!!


If you drink the whisky with out the e in it then you will mix it work water and leave the coke in the fridge.

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## Maca49

> If you drink the whisky with out the e in it then you will mix it work water and leave the coke in the fridge.


e by gum!! gets worser the more you drunk

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## Maca49

> Given the public perception, I am a lone voice....  
> 
> its all just so sloppy, and I reserve the right to exercise my grumpy old man about the idiotic public perception fed by stupid media that somehow everyones opinions matter.  Accurate, relavent and competant opinions matter... the rest is just useless white noise, that demeans relevant contribution and promotes misunderstanding.
> 
> Now while firearms ownership is a legal right, I choose to think of it as both a priviledge and a responsibility.  That promotes me to be careful and thankful for our legally recognised freedoms.
> 
> But don't let some knobby policeman tell me that my legal rights are a priviledge exercised at their discretion.  Wrong, they are agent for society to ensure that I meet the requirements of the law in order for me to be granted my rights under the law.
> 
> The finer points of that are of course lost on the masses with opinions.


Sorry Sidney i live in the real world..... doesnt mean your wrong.... just not right and employing people has lead me to believe many people are F... wits!!

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## Sidney

perhaps after you have explained how I am not wrong but not right and offered reasons for that....I might actually agree with you about a lot of people.... 

but that doesn't change what reality is irrespective of how you want to feel about it...perceptions are not the measure by which the law is applied....

and you ain't got a mandate on the real world either...

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## Rushy

> Who needs water when theres whiskey and coke!!


No self respecting Whiskey drinker would ever put coke in it you bloody heathen.  There are only two things to mix with Whiskey and that is either more Whiskey or more Whiskey.

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## Maca49

> No self respecting Whiskey drinker would ever put coke in it you bloody heathen.  There are only two things to mix with Whiskey and that is either more Whiskey or more Whiskey.


Mate I was taught how to drink whiskey by a couple of masters, my father in law, and a real master Rev K Elliott V.C. I was the water boy, easy job as they both had it straight, but liked the blessard water waved across the top first!!

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## Rushy

Very good then.

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## gadgetman

> Given the public perception, I am a lone voice....  
> 
> its all just so sloppy, and I reserve the right to exercise my grumpy old man about the idiotic public perception fed by stupid media that somehow everyones opinions matter.  *Accurate, relavent and competant opinions matter... the rest is just useless white noise, that demeans relevant contribution and promotes misunderstanding.*
> 
> Now while firearms ownership is a legal right, I choose to think of it as both a priviledge and a responsibility.  That promotes me to be careful and thankful for our legally recognised freedoms.
> 
> But don't let some knobby policeman tell me that my legal rights are a priviledge exercised at their discretion.  Wrong, they are agent for society to ensure that I meet the requirements of the law in order for me to be granted my rights under the law.
> 
> The finer points of that are of course lost on the masses with opinions.


Now how does it pan out when the white noise makers without accurate, relevant and competent opinions are the elected members making the laws?

Gee you lot are turning me into a cynic. Bad form!

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## Maca49

> perhaps after you have explained how I am not wrong but not right and offered reasons for that....I might actually agree with you about a lot of people.... 
> 
> but that doesn't change what reality is irrespective of how you want to feel about it...perceptions are not the measure by which the law is applied....
> 
> and you ain't got a mandate on the real world either...


You not wrong and your not right, you just express an opinion as have I! The law, in my opinion, is applied by a lot of weak knee , out of touch judges!!

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## gadgetman

> If you drink the whisky with out the e in it then you will mix it work water and leave the coke in the fridge.


Now while my uncle would agree with you, my father insisted that the water was only for putting under bridges and boats.

I'll have the Coke.

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## Maca49

> Very good then.


You would have enjoyed those Sunday school Rushy, I was very privileged to be in the same room!

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## Maca49

> Now while my uncle would agree with you, my father insisted that the water was only for putting under bridges and boats.
> 
> I'll have the Coke.


Sniff it up!!

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## Sidney

> You not wrong and your not right, you just express an opinion as have I! The law, in my opinion, is applied by a lot of weak knee , out of touch judges!!


No.. and I am pretty sure that you have missed the point....  I offered an opinion based on knowledge and capacity, and on any sensible analysis on what I offered, it is correct.  

You on the other hand offer no evidence, facts or information that can be relied on to form a legitimate opinion.  You only have a perception based on random unqualified pieces of media information, you offer no statistical understanding and no apparent understanding that media reports are based on statistically extreme pieces of information and bear no real reflection of the day to day situations, and normal performance.

You apparently have no ideal that our prison populations are at the highest levels ever and our offending rate/1000 people has been dropping consistently for years as well as has the total offences reported.  (At least up to 2012).  That don't sound like weak kneed judges to me, unless of course your argument was that they are obviously weak kneed because they respond to political and public perceptions, even when the stats apparently don't require it.  But I am pretty sure that isn't what you meant.

So what you know about the normal day to day work done by judges in this country doesn't appear to stack up.  Based on what I know, you have a pretty weak case for your latest attempt at a legitimate opinion.

Poorly created and uninformed perceptions aint opinions.  The're just feelings.

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## Sidney

> Now how does it pan out when the white noise makers without accurate, relevant and competent opinions are the elected members making the laws?
> 
> Gee you lot are turning me into a cynic. Bad form!


Media and pollies try to manage public perceptions, cause with numbers it doesn't actually matter whats right and wrong.  When they fail they get get Trump.  And he aint wrong about fake news, hes just too stupid to know that he's the worst at it.

What do they say... ? we live in a "post truth society."

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## northdude

Fukn hell @Maca49 have you failed to submit all appropriate documentation and and signed and witnessed checked by a lawyer to have an opinion  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Sidney

Its not Maca...

its everyone.... he was just the trigger.... :Grin: 

I'm sorry Maca...

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## Maca49

Your RIGHT Sidney, feelings, gut feelings, developed over 67 yrs of experience, no crap! Beats the theory boys of the world most times!
Of course today we are breeding that type of thinking from the world and running on smoke, mirrors and fairy dust!

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## Maca49

> Its not Maca...
> 
> its everyone.... he was just the trigger....
> 
> I'm sorry Maca...


Don't be sorry, I meet people like you most days sad to say, cost a fortune, take ages and del SFA, just my humble opinion, don't take offence!  :Wink:

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## Maca49

> Fukn hell @Maca49 have you failed to submit all appropriate documentation and and signed and witnessed checked by a lawyer to have an opinion


I think it's based on an extension of the RMA!

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## Sidney

I wouldn't assume that you know who I am Maca or what I can deliver...  that sounds like another unsubstantiable opinion...

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## northdude

> I think it's based on an extension of the RMA!


Umm what's that

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## gadgetman

> No.. and I am pretty sure that you have missed the point....  I offered an opinion based on knowledge and capacity, and on any sensible analysis on what I offered, it is correct.  
> 
> You on the other hand offer no evidence, facts or information that can be relied on to form a legitimate opinion.  You only have a perception based on random unqualified pieces of media information, you offer no statistical understanding and no apparent understanding that media reports are based on statistically extreme pieces of information and bear no real reflection of the day to day situations, and normal performance.
> 
> You apparently have no ideal that our prison populations are at the highest levels ever and our offending rate/1000 people has been dropping consistently for years as well as has the total offences reported.  (At least up to 2012).  That don't sound like weak kneed judges to me, unless of course your argument was that they are obviously weak kneed because they respond to political and public perceptions, even when the stats apparently don't require it.  But I am pretty sure that isn't what you meant.
> 
> So what you know about the normal day to day work done by judges in this country doesn't appear to stack up.  Based on what I know, you have a pretty weak case for your latest attempt at a legitimate opinion.
> 
> Poorly created and uninformed perceptions aint opinions.  The're just feelings.


Yes, the growing prison numbers are more an indication of society in free fall. The disaffected, and disillusioned who cannot maintain a job turn to drugs to numb the pain and crime to pay. A lot of this could arguably be attributed to the growing gap between the haves and have nots. When we had low unemployment and low crime we had greater productivity and our collective wealth grew as a country. Now we seem to be trying to soak up unemployment with created bureaucracy and inefficiency, with less and less productivity, and more and more overhead. These are generalisations of course and don't fit every scenario, but standing back and looking at the overall picture it is probably not too far off.

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## Beaker

> Umm what's that


If you don't know, don't ask....  :Have A Nice Day:

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## northdude

once upon a time we lived our lives not our excuses today we are encouraged to live our excuses and not our lives

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## Maca49

> I wouldn't assume that you know who I am Maca or what I can deliver...  that sounds like another unsubstantiable opinion...


Yep just my humble opinion formulated from my gut feelings, I think is time for me to run Forrest run? :O O:

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## Maca49

I


> Yes, the growing prison numbers are more an indication of society in free fall. The disaffected, and disillusioned who cannot maintain a job turn to drugs to numb the pain and crime to pay. A lot of this could arguably be attributed to the growing gap between the haves and have nots. When we had low unemployment and low crime we had greater productivity and our collective wealth grew as a country. Now we seem to be trying to soak up unemployment with created bureaucracy and inefficiency, with less and less productivity, and more and more overhead. These are generalisations of course and don't fit every scenario, but standing back and looking at the overall picture it is probably not too far off.


GM it's time we withdrew support for many and let them toughen up. There are others I think we should offer more to.
I remember a few years ago, talking to an older lady who told me about moving to Rarimu at the age of about 4 yrs and her dad digging a bank out to form a room and setting up a canvas on poles to provide a kitchen. That's the middle of the North Island, shitty cold and wet winters with freezing temps. They lived there for two years until her dad got enough money to build a small house! I think a car in Auck sounds much better. The diff is the struggle her mum and dad put in to achieve, he became a fairly wealthy guy in the timber industry, all through hard graft and belief in him and his wife. Now tell me things are different? Yep now we can put our hand out, and the govt will give you some of my tax money!

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## Sasquatch

@systolic Aggressively name calling someone constantly and complaining they have guns because they simply mentioned castle doctrine & concealed carry? Grow up. They are both _legal_ in other countries. It's not like he said lets buy machine guns on the black market and take this country back. I think _you_ are the weirdo. Your insecurity about this is beyond obvious. I've scene you obsessively pick at people for posting their somewhat personal info on the net claiming that "no wonder" you'll get burgled or "followed home" or "it's only a matter of time before they'll come & get ya"

But yet, you don't advocate any form of self defense or proper means to combat this? And if anyone does bring up some form of legitimate self defense, God forbid you are there to strike them down!

I don't see why people treat CCW or castle doctrine like it'll be the end of society as we know it, you'd think we were walking around with weapons grade plutonium in our pockets or something. It is statistical fact that states in the US have lower crime where citizens can defend themselves freely without heavy restrictions. The same would go here but _pigs_ would fly before that ever happens here.

Castle doctrine? Maybe. Certainly farmers, dairy owners and people living in dodgy areas would benefit from this. Regardless, everyone has the ancient right to defend themselves with whatever force is deemed necessary - just don't use excessive force. Remember though, if what the MSM and the police hierarchy are anecdotally claiming about methamphetamine & firearms to be true, then why can't the crowns subjects have the means to deal with the problem if it ever comes knocking on the door.

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## jackson21

> An opinion is evidence/information that has bearing on the issue.  Before it can be evidence it has to be relevant and admissible.  On that basis you are still wrong about firearm ownership, it is a legal right recognised in legislation.  So your opinion is worthless and not relevant - so not admissible, it also has no weight because you are just incorrect.
> 
> You are however correct about obtaining a job.  Its not a right.  Once you have it of course your ability to keep it is controlled by legal rights that apply to both parties.
> 
> Opinions are not feelings, nor are they unjustiable thoughts.  Opinions are information and analysis coming from competance and capacity, that has bearing on the issue.  It has to be relevant before it can be offered.  It shouldn't be offered unless it comes from competance.
> 
> So you are partly right about one aspect.  That would get you about 12.5%.... a bare pass mark for a quarter of the topics covered.
> 
> Why is it everyone seems to believe that their opinion actually matters, when all they are doing is saying what they want to think, rather than what actually is?


I'll give you a 10/10 for accuracy there

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## gadgetman

> I
> GM it's time we withdrew support for many and let them toughen up.


The trouble is that it would simply mean they have to steal more. It's a tough one. But it is a problem for us as a society, not just for the legislature/police/judicial system to sort out.

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## jackson21

> No.. and I am pretty sure that you have missed the point....  I offered an opinion based on knowledge and capacity, and on any sensible analysis on what I offered, it is correct.  
> 
> You on the other hand offer no evidence, facts or information that can be relied on to form a legitimate opinion.  You only have a perception based on random unqualified pieces of media information, you offer no statistical understanding and no apparent understanding that media reports are based on statistically extreme pieces of information and bear no real reflection of the day to day situations, and normal performance.
> 
> You apparently have no ideal that our prison populations are at the highest levels ever and our offending rate/1000 people has been dropping consistently for years as well as has the total offences reported.  (At least up to 2012).  That don't sound like weak kneed judges to me, unless of course your argument was that they are obviously weak kneed because they respond to political and public perceptions, even when the stats apparently don't require it.  But I am pretty sure that isn't what you meant.
> 
> So what you know about the normal day to day work done by judges in this country doesn't appear to stack up.  Based on what I know, you have a pretty weak case for your latest attempt at a legitimate opinion.
> 
> Poorly created and uninformed perceptions aint opinions.  The're just feelings.


Does the low offending rate possibly correspond with the high amount of offenders actually locked up? Can't offend from inside? Is that a bad thing?
Lets face it most of serious crime is probably (large assumption on my part) by a small % of full-time career pro's, I've come across a few and they find it hard to change.

Although I don't agree with the concept of Jail, putting all the bad people together to scheme up more shit for when they get out, making new acquaintances I do not have a suitable alternative solution.

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## gadgetman

> I'll give you a 10/10 for accuracy there


I wouldn't.




> Opinion
> 
> A view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.


An opinion is a viewpoint/judgement made by someone from what they have observed and know.

Sidneys very narrow opinion on opinion is just his and his trades opinion on opinion.

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## Maca49

> The trouble is that it would simply mean they have to steal more. It's a tough one. But it is a problem for us as a society, not just for the legislature/police/judicial system to sort out.


Agree 100% with you there GM, balls in the wrong court,

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## Rushy

The gap between the wealthy and the poor that exists now, has always existed and will always exist.  It may be broadening but so what?  As long as you are on the right side who really gives a shit? I don't. As for the number of people in prison there is 1 (rounded down for you nit pickers) for every thousand citizens in the country so big fucking deal.  If you don't like them being in jail and want a viable alternative then shoot the pricks and spend my taxes on something worthwhile.

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## northdude

the problem with our prison system is its suppose to be a deterant which ours isn't its a cushy holiday I like the idea I think Thailand has once convicted human rights don't apply to you any more also no food get your supporters to provide for you once your in there that would save a bit of tax

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## timattalon

> the problem with our prison system is its suppose to be a deterant which ours isn't its a cushy holiday I like the idea I think Thailand has once convicted human rights don't apply to you any more also no food get your supporters to provide for you once your in there that would save a bit of tax


Interesting concept. Push that a bit further and affluent crims would be reluctant to "eat well" as they would also become targets of those who had no outside support. Downside is loners or those who are jailed far from home and have no support would not be fed. (yes, they should have thought about this prior to committing the crime).

But I definitely agree that prison does not appear to be the deterrent that it is supposed to be.

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## gonetropo

i used to do allot of service work in the prisons, the food wasnt bad and the accommodation was pretty good especially in the rolleston hut compounds.
pool table, rec room etc, tv points in each cell (i installed them) clean clothing and linen and no compulsory work duty. pretty cushy really

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## Sidney

> I wouldn't.
> 
> 
> 
> An opinion is a viewpoint/judgement made by someone from what they have observed and know.
> 
> Sidneys very narrow opinion on opinion is just his and his trades opinion on opinion.



Well actually no not just mine.... that definition is a 100% correct for what is "legal opinion" and it is the criteria by which information is accessed before it can be offered as evidence to a court.

The reason that I promoted it is because of the sloppy public perception of what opinion is in the public arena these days.

As you illustrate in your definition it is apparently sufficient to form "opinion" without knowledge or understanding.  That definition is reflective of what has occurred, rather than what needs to be happening.

That is damaging, it is the source of many of our issues and preoccupations.  Macca for example and his weed kneed judges.  His gut feelings have not been checked, offending levels are lower and prison numbers are higher.  He's just wrong but apparently his gut feelings give him licence to express opinion without knowledge or understanding.  Thus perpetuating a myth in public opinion.

No harm in general discussion, no harm in talking about what we feel about issues, gut feeling can provide insight and knowledge from experience can be valuable, but it still has to be put into context and checked before it can be legitimate.  If is not weighed, its of no value and it can be problematic.

My father used to tell me as a kid to shut up and listen and learn.  These days apparently "everybody has a right to an opinion" apparently also means that no knowledge or understanding is required, and everybody must express what they don't know or understand to secure that right...  how stupid is that?

Let me paraphrase what this means......  "well thats my opinion anyway"   means, I haven't got a clue what I am talking about and I want you all to know that.

So my "narrow opinion" of opinion is merely offered as a counter to stupidity and the public expression of it....  you can all thank me now...  

And yes I know that this is an internet forum... :Grin:

----------


## Maca49

> i used to do allot of service work in the prisons, the food wasnt bad and the accommodation was pretty good especially in the rolleston hut compounds.
> pool table, rec room etc, tv points in each cell (i installed them) clean clothing and linen and no compulsory work duty. pretty cushy really


You telling me I dont have to work, but get fed and watch TV?? and I still get my pension, Geeze @Rushy theres an option for retiring, we could ask Trevor if he could get a petition for a rifle range, duck shooting, pistol range, few odd deer around the grounds, and a box of Waikato a day and rename it a lodge???? :Cool:

----------


## Maca49

> Well actually no not just mine.... that definition is a 100% correct for what is "legal opinion" and it is the criteria by which information is accessed before it can be offered as evidence to a court.
> 
> The reason that I promoted it is because of the sloppy public perception of what opinion is in the public arena these days.
> 
> As you illustrate in your definition it is apparently sufficient to form "opinion" without knowledge or understanding.  That definition is reflective of what has occurred, rather than what needs to be happening.
> 
> That is damaging, it is the source of many of our issues and preoccupations.  Macca for example and his weed kneed judges.  His gut feelings have not been checked, offending levels are lower and prison numbers are higher.  He's just wrong but apparently his gut feelings give him licence to express opinion without knowledge or understanding.  Thus perpetuating a myth in public opinion.
> 
> No harm in general discussion, no harm in talking about what we feel about issues, gut feeling can provide insight and knowledge from experience can be valuable, but it still has to be put into context and checked before it can be legitimate.  If is not weighed, its of no value and it can be problematic.
> ...


Sorry mate, you would tie us up in more red tape than one could shit. In all honesty if the politicians listened to more public opinion..... oh wait on say no more, Trump, Brexit and the next French revolution, alls OK with the world!! Now back to feeding my guts!! :Grin:

----------


## Sidney

I wasn't promoting regulation Macca... I was promoting integrity and that can't be regulated...

being informed and honest includes not letting ourselves be decieved by others or by our own gut feelings...

----------


## Savage1

Oh the irony of @Sidney giving his opinion about the meaning of 'opinion', which when compared to a definition from a dictionary is clearly incorrect. 

Everyone has the right to an opinion and the right to voice it, no matter how stupid or ill founded, this is at the core of a free society.

----------


## R93

> Everyone has the right to an opinion and the right to voice it, no matter how stupid or ill founded, this is at the core of a free society.


Can someone inform my wife of this please😆

Even though most of mine are probably stupid and I'll founded.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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## Tahr

An opinion is less strong than positive knowledge. Thus Sidney we all have them and are entitled to them, even if we do not have positive knowledge. Having a contra opinion to your opinion is ok too.

----------


## Sidney

> Oh the irony of @Sidney giving his opinion about the meaning of 'opinion', which when compared to a definition from a dictionary is clearly incorrect. 
> 
> Everyone has the right to an opinion and the right to voice it, no matter how stupid or ill founded, this is at the core of a free society.


if you could read Savaloy you might have been able to follow that this is the definition of "legal opinion" and its not just mine.  What is concerning of course is that your limited understanding of this should actually not be the case given your profession...

And of course no where did I actually say that you haven't the right to be stupid, say stupid things or form stupid thoughts from a lack of knowledge and understanding.

I am just concerned that you seem so determined to do exactly that.... :Grin:

----------


## Sidney

> An opinion is less strong than positive knowledge. Thus Sidney we all have them and are entitled to them, even if we do not have positive knowledge. Having a contra opinion to your opinion is ok too.


And we all have the right to express them, I just wonder why people are always in such a hurry in the abscence of any positive knowledge, understanding or competance.

There is no authority in having an opinion you are correct, it has to be evaluated before any "weight" can be attached to it.

This futile little diversion is not an attempt to tell people off, but rather to encourage them to form informed opinions and not to just express themselves authoritivly in the absence of an informed opinion.  Cause thats what people do.... people assume opinion has importance...

A post truth society is one filled with unjustifiable opinion.  I prefer some honesty.

----------


## northdude

Fuk me what a long winded explanation of an opinion I'll just go with every one has one and their entitled to it plus other than a couple of people noone gives a shit what it is anyway   :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Sidney

wouldn't it be better if what you had to say actually had some credibility?

that actually has to be earned...

----------


## northdude

We are on a forum where people share their opinions we aren't on trial in a court of law ffs OK yes you have an opinion as well but you don't need to ram it down everyone's neck

----------


## Sidney

well from that response... you clearly don't expect me to take you seriously

ffs     lol

----------


## Danger Mouse

well this thread went to s*&t

----------


## northdude

Went a bit off course didn't it

----------


## Tahr

> well from that response... you clearly don't expect me to take you seriously
> 
> ffs     lol


Sidney, you are probably sitting in a library researching and carefully collating your responses to this thread.

Before your next response, I would like to respectfully suggest that you pick up this book from the shelf, and read it...

Cloke, K. (2008)  Conflict Revolution Janis Publications, USA

In the event that you learn nothing from it, it will at the least keep you quiet for a couple of days  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Sidney

its all a matter of opinion

----------


## Sidney

You're right Thar, I am in the library but no not researching this just avoiding what I should be researching lol...... maybe I'm not interested in resolution and just want the conflict..?

certainly the general tenor of my argument is lacking in the public perception as shown in this thread....  And in my opinion that is a problem.  I don't really want reconciliation with the idea that uniformed opinion and the expression of it is at all desireable, outside of the process of reaching informed opinion.

surely the quieting of the debate because of artifical tolerance implies acceptance?  it is certainly one of the symptoms of a less robust and more dishonest society...?

thanks for the book ref though.... I will look at it sometime..

----------


## Savage1

> if you could read Savaloy you might have been able to follow that this is the definition of "legal opinion" and its not just mine.  What is concerning of course is that your limited understanding of this should actually not be the case given your profession...
> 
> And of course no where did I actually say that you haven't the right to be stupid, say stupid things or form stupid thoughts from a lack of knowledge and understanding.
> 
> I am just concerned that you seem so determined to do exactly that....


You lectured your opinion on the definition of opinion without revealing that you were speaking about the legal definition rather than he common English definition until the actual definition was posted, I'm unsure if you're trying to be smart or just arrogant.

I never mentioned that you denied the right to be stupid etc, it's stupid to imply that I did. 

You should be offering your opinion on how to weigh others opinions, not argue about the definition of a word, I understand what you're trying to do and I somewhat agree with you but you could go about it in a better way, but that's just my opinion.

----------


## Gibo

Spot on Savaloy  :Thumbsup: 

An opinion can only be derived from what one believes to be fact, even informed know it all's can be wrong, just depends where they got the info  :Grin:

----------


## Sidney

> You lectured your opinion on the definition of opinion without revealing that you were speaking about the legal definition rather than he common English definition until the actual definition was posted, I'm unsure if you're trying to be smart or just arrogant.
> 
> I never mentioned that you denied the right to be stupid etc, it's stupid to imply that I did. 
> 
> You should be offering your opinion on how to weigh others opinions, not argue about the definition of a word, I understand what you're trying to do and I somewhat agree with you but you could go about it in a better way, but that's just my opinion.


yep... i offered it as purely an argument without clarifying initially.... but then I did...

and the point is that you didn't recognise what it was... before or after that

and of course there is a better way... there is always a better way




> Everyone has the right to an opinion and the right to voice it, no matter how stupid or ill founded, this is at the core of a free society.


that in response to my posts implies that I didn't think that...  hence my response...

"weight" or credibility isn't the actual issue...  the issue is the proliferation and noise from uniformed opinion expressed because of percieved right.  Our world is full of information, the solution isn't more analysis of more crap, its less crap.

----------


## Sidney

> Spot on Savaloy 
> 
> *An opinion can only be derived from what one believes to be fact*, even informed know it all's can be wrong, just depends where they got the info


 Not according to the popular definition...

----------


## gadgetman

> if you could read Savaloy you might have been able to follow that this is the definition of "legal opinion" and its not just mine.  What is concerning of course is that your limited understanding of this should actually not be the case given your profession...
> 
> And of course no where did I actually say that you haven't the right to be stupid, say stupid things or form stupid thoughts from a lack of knowledge and understanding.
> 
> I am just concerned that you seem so determined to do exactly that....


Now the same could be said of your trade. Facts must be ignored because, even though they are correct, they are not admissible (due to a legal technicality as opposed to a just nature). As a result the legal opinion formed, by the legal professions own definition, is not based on full and truthful knowledge.

----------


## northdude

Any one got any popcorn left I've run out  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Maxx

I recall someone  said... "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.."

Often wish I was clever enough to have thought of that, first.

----------


## Happy

Having trouble sleeping print this lot off..  :Thumbsup: 

In my onion I reckon you ll be dozing off before page 4....

----------


## Sidney

> Now the same could be said of your trade. Facts must be ignored because, even though they are correct, they are not admissible (due to a legal technicality as opposed to a just nature). As a result the legal opinion formed, by the legal professions own definition, is not based on full and truthful knowledge.


ahhhh....a challenge....

evidence is often not admissible, but the system is trying to be fair.  The protagonists are charged to deliver to their best efforts for the parties they represent.  That is often considered to be unfair to the other party.  The courts are charged with enforcing the roles and deciding on the evidence allowed what the outcome should be...

some evidence while factual and truthful can create bias disproportionate to the real value of the information.  For example a defendants previous criminal history.  The court has to decide what is fair and equitable because proving guilt is the responsibilty of the prosecution and cannot be assumed with the introduction of material that creates prejudice and bias unrelated to the matter before the court.

the system is trying to be fair...  I'm more impressed about that than I thought that I could be, but  the components of the system often appear not to be  fair in order for the system to achieve that..  and that is a fact.  The reason that the general public think that the system is not is because that only hear about its failings and they only see the errant practitioners.... its actually not that bad at its purpose.  Where the system falls down is in the limited amount of resource and thought about how we should best deal with those who transgress.

Where we continue to fall down is in the ideal of punative deterent, and failing to try and equip our criminals to be better citizens on their evitable return to general society.

Justice is not an outcome its a process.... outcomes can never be equitable from the victims perspective.  The desire to punish is not beneficial after the fact.

Every system has failings, but this one is probably not as flawed as most think.  The primary issues of concern are sentencing options and access/cost for those at the lower ends of society.  

Always room for improvement though...

----------


## gadgetman

> ahhhh....a challenge....
> 
> evidence is often not admissible, but the system is trying to be fair.  The protagonists are charged to deliver to their best efforts for the parties they represent.  That is often considered to be unfair to the other party.  The courts are charged with enforcing the roles and deciding on the evidence allowed what the outcome should be...
> 
> some evidence while factual and truthful can create bias disproportionate to the real value of the information.  For example a defendants previous criminal history.  The court has to decide what is fair and equitable because proving guilt is the responsibilty of the prosecution and cannot be assumed with the introduction of material that creates prejudice and bias unrelated to the matter before the court.
> 
> the system is trying to be fair...  I'm more impressed about that than I thought that I could be, but  the components of the system often appear not to be  fair in order for the system to achieve that..  and that is a fact.  The reason that the general public think that the system is not is because that only hear about its failings and they only see the errant practitioners.... its actually not that bad at its purpose.  Where the system falls down is in the limited amount of resource and thought about how we should best beal with those who transgress.
> 
> Where we continue to fall down is in the ideal of punative deterent, and failing to try and equip our criminals to be better citizens on their evitable return to general society.
> ...


Indeed. It is like all other aspects of life, just costlier than even a partner. There is the definite perception that it has evolved into it's own self regenerating spiral of increasing complexity and cost, and moved into more of a legal system than a justice system.

I can remember a government vowing to sort the whole system out an simplify the laws. Of course they inevitably just introduced more complex and wordy laws that made the whole thing messier.

----------


## tararua

So it's too much to ask to shut down the border and control crime?

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## northdude

Yes  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Rushy

> Having trouble sleeping print this lot off.. 
> 
> In my onion I reckon you ll be dozing off before page 4....


Your onion is ill informed and has no right being an onion.  Ha ha ha ha.

----------


## gadgetman

> I am writing to you all in the hope of revving up the internet hate machine even more. I know a lot of you have been contacting local representatives lately, I ask you to double your efforts.
> 
> Police Association, who may represent a few senior members of NZPD, are out of touch with majority of officers on front line.
> 
> They are focusing on criminalizing law abiding citizens, and getting speed tickets to plug their leaky revenue. This is at the expense of the meth and related burglary epidemic. Our country is drowning in drugs, my scientist friend at a university has been spectroscopying synthetic cannabis lately, they have found lots of PCP or angeldust turning up in it.
> 
> My solution, call, send letters and berate our local representatives. I am going to be calling as many as possible over the next two days. I am not going to stop until I am asked to stop calling.
> 
> I am going to be asking why Chris Cahill's focus is on law abiding gun owners in the midst of what is possibly our worst drug crisis. I am going to ask why foreign fishing boats and mega offshore processing ships plunder our waters. I am going to ask why we don't scan incoming mail under a certain size/value for drugs. I am going to ask if the firearms report will be done and dusted by the election, or will it loom waiting for the next gun grabbers to come along in the next government. I am going to ask why are we putting 90,000 immigrants per year first and citizens second. I am going to ask if we can turn off the immigrant taps so one day I might be able to get a job and buy a house. I am going to ask why WINZ is shipping in foreign workers for freezing works while I am a trained butcher who was blackballed by alliance group limited (after they chopped my finger off and sacked me to avoid liability, no compensation) and can't get a job in the industry. I am going to ask where are all the jobs to stop kids turning to crime for work.
> ...


Anyway. I like your idea. If they are being fed biased information from one side then that should be balanced with some well thought out alternatives based on the truth that we know from this side.

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## tararua

Right I just saw this article and a few things jumped out at me. Soaring immigration levels positive for economy, no reason for xenophobic politics | Stuff.co.nz




> "Immigrants in Auckland contribute much more to taxation and economic benefits. Therefore, their net contribution is higher than the local population."
> 
> There will be some new migrants competing with Kiwi workers for some low-value jobs, but they are in the minority.
> 
> Skilled migrants make up 60 per cent of total immigrants. With these new arrivals come new business, new investment and new connections with key export markets.


There you go, 36,000 odd unskilled migrants coming in each year to compete with locals for jobs. Seems like they are winning. This is all I have to say on this topic.

I would like to move the discussion from us being on the backfoot defending our reasons and right to own semi autos, to discussing crime and how we can solve it.

Violent armed robberies on dairy owners have increased a lot as taxes have gone up on cigarettes. I am not a smoker, but are we putting a public health goal ahead of the personal safety of dairy owners?

Would dairys get robbed if the owners were allowed to defend themselves with the same sometimes lethal force the burglar brings?

----------


## ebf

> There you go, 36,000 odd unskilled migrants coming in each year to compete with locals for jobs. Seems like they are winning. This is all I have to say on this topic.


I am an immigrant  :Psmiley: 

The reason migrants are winning is coz they are willing to turn up, do the work, and not whinge....

And hey, if you want to stop immigration, wait till all your kiwi brothers currently working over in Aus get sent back (fair is fair), and you have to compete with them... Then we will see who starts crying...

Just saying  :Grin:

----------


## SlowElliot

> I am an immigrant 
> 
> The reason migrants are winning is coz they are willing to turn up, do the work, and not whinge....


Your better than us? Is that what your saying? 
You had better not whinge you get a damn good deal coming to new zealand.
You should show some respect to the locals because your gain is our loss.
Our country is now full. You come here take jobs, congest our roads and hike up the price of housing Alot of you don't even speak our language.
I don't blame the immigrants, I'd want to come here too.
 I blame the dickhead who opened the floodgates.
We are on the fast track to turning our country into the same shit holes these people are coming from.

----------


## Maca49

> You lectured your opinion on the definition of opinion without revealing that you were speaking about the legal definition rather than he common English definition until the actual definition was posted, I'm unsure if you're trying to be smart or just arrogant.
> 
> I never mentioned that you denied the right to be stupid etc, it's stupid to imply that I did. 
> 
> You should be offering your opinion on how to weigh others opinions, not argue about the definition of a word, I understand what you're trying to do and I somewhat agree with you but you could go about it in a better way, but that's just my opinion.


Geeze Savage you've screwed my brain!!

----------


## Maca49

> Any one got any popcorn left I've run out


You want the bits I've got tucked in my ears? Hahahahaha well said! In my opinion, I could be wrong?

----------


## Maca49

> I am an immigrant 
> 
> The reason migrants are winning is coz they are willing to turn up, do the work, and not whinge....
> 
> And hey, if you want to stop immigration, wait till all your kiwi brothers currently working over in Aus get sent back (fair is fair), and you have to compete with them... Then we will see who starts crying...
> 
> 
> Just saying


ebf yr whinging, and yr one we want? :Grin:

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## Rushy

> Your better than us? Is that what your saying? 
> You had better not whinge you get a damn good deal coming to new zealand.
> You should show some respect to the locals because your gain is our loss.
> Our country is now full. You come here take jobs, congest our roads and hike up the price of housing Alot of you don't even speak our language.
> I don't blame the immigrants, I'd want to come here too.
>  I blame the dickhead who opened the floodgates.
> We are on the fast track to turning our country into the same shit holes these people are coming from.


Can't agree with you I am afraid.  Give me a foreigner that contributes to our country over a Kiwi with a sense of entitlement who is on the bludge any day.

----------


## Maca49



----------


## Tommy

> Your better than us? Is that what your saying? 
> You had better not whinge you get a damn good deal coming to new zealand.
> You should show some respect to the locals because your gain is our loss.
> Our country is now full. You come here take jobs, congest our roads and hike up the price of housing Alot of you don't even speak our language.
> I don't blame the immigrants, I'd want to come here too.
>  I blame the dickhead who opened the floodgates.
> We are on the fast track to turning our country into the same shit holes these people are coming from.


Congratulations, that's the stupidest thing I've read on this forum

----------


## SlowElliot

> Can't agree with you I am afraid.  Give me a foreigner that contributes to our country over a Kiwi with a sense of entitlement who is on the bludge any day.


So would I, unfortunately we get both.
We aren't trading one for other.
My issue is with the population growth, not the individuals.
I'd rather give the guy on the bludge a job than keep him on the dole and import someone for the job instead.

Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk

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## SlowElliot

> Congratulations, that's the stupidest thing I've read on this forum


Care to explain why?

----------


## Friwi

> I am an immigrant 
> 
> The reason migrants are winning is coz they are willing to turn up, do the work, and not whinge....
> 
> And hey, if you want to stop immigration, wait till all your kiwi brothers currently working over in Aus get sent back (fair is fair), and you have to compete with them... Then we will see who starts crying...
> 
> Just saying


I thought only the laid back kiwis were going to Ozy to work! :-)

----------


## ebf

> Your better than us? Is that what your saying?


 No...



> You had better not whinge you get a damn good deal coming to new zealand.


I'm not whinging, you guys are whinging about immigrants. We could have chosen to go to any one of several countries (Aus, Canada, NZ) under skilled migrant criteria - we CHOSE this country.



> You should show some respect to the locals because your gain is our loss.


Are you saying you are better than me, coz that is what this sounds like. Have you considered that my gain is actually NZ's gain as well ?
You don't even know me. We came here, bought a house, have paid it off, and I started a business. We have made a point of not sticking to the clique of folks from my previous country, but rather gone out of our way to fit into NZ society and make kiwi friends (several on here). 

Before tarring every immigrant with the same brush and making all sort of general statements, you might want to consider individual cases and being slightly more open-minded.

Kiwis are known around the world for being open-minded, fair, and welcoming. I find this anti-immigrant stance very weird, especially considering the fact that working all over the world is part of growing up as a kiwi...

----------


## Tommy

> Care to explain why?


They don't call you slow for nothing eh?




> Your better than us? Is that what your saying? *I doubt it. Just stating facts as he sees them*
> You had better not whinge you get a damn good deal coming to new zealand. *So did you, immigrant*
> You should show some respect to the locals because your gain is our loss. *Bet you he shows up to work every day, works hard, has the respect of his peers and colleagues. He earns it. Do you? The chip on your shoulder says no* 
> Our country is now full. You come here take jobs, congest our roads and hike up the price of housing Alot of you don't even speak our language. * For fuck's sakes, he writes better than you do, with better punctuation, spelling, grammar etc*
> I don't blame the immigrants, I'd want to come here too. *Your family did*
>  I blame the dickhead who opened the floodgates. *Cook? or Kupe?*
> We are on the fast track to turning our country into the same shit holes these people are coming from. *NZ is very.... Commonwealth, if you know what I mean?*

----------


## Maca49

Ebf I don't care who comes, but I don't want to give this great little country away to anyone. We need those that fit in and don't want to change our country into what theirs was like. I realise everyone should retain and express their own cultures and share them with us, but there should not be wholesale conversion. I guess some people fit better than others. But I'm older and Sidney would have more facts I'm sure :Cool:

----------


## SlowElliot

> No...
> 
> I'm not whinging, you guys are whinging about immigrants. We could have chosen to go to any one of several countries (Aus, Canada, NZ) under skilled migrant criteria - we CHOSE this country.
> 
> Are you saying you are better than me, coz that is what this sounds like. Have you considered that my gain is actually NZ's gain as well ?
> You don't even know me. We came here, bought a house, have paid it off, and I started a business. We have made a point of not sticking to the clique of folks from my previous country, but rather gone out of our way to fit into NZ society and make kiwi friends (several on here). 
> 
> Before tarring every immigrant with the same brush and making all sort of general statements, you might want to consider individual cases and being slightly more open-minded.
> 
> Kiwis are known around the world for being open-minded, fair, and welcoming. I find this anti-immigrant stance very weird, especially considering the fact that working all over the world is part of growing up as a kiwi...


I'm not great at expressing myself, so apploggies for any offence caused.
I'm all for Immigration, if there's room.
But for me there isn't anymore. My problem is the out of control population growth.
I understand everyone is an individual.

I didn't like your statement about immigrats winning.
Not all of us kiwi are useless dole bludgers. Alot of us work very hard and for fuck all, just like Alot of immigrants.


Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk

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## northdude

> Sidney would have more facts I'm sure


fuk nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ive run out of pop corn

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## Maca49

> fuk nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ive run out of pop corn


You've eaten the plate I put on here to keep you going?

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## Maca49

This has to be the most convoluted thread every seen on here?IMHO of course FFS!

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## SlowElliot

Thanks that's better that just insulting me and running off.
I called myself slow, nobody else does.
I'll admit I'm not well written.
I do work, I have skillset that very few people have. I'm self tought, very good at what i do and have worked hard to get where I am.
Again my problem is with the population not individuals.
I was referring to John key.






> They don't call you slow for nothing eh?



Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk

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## veitnamcam

Opinions are a lot like Religions and Penises.
It is ok to have one and it is ok to be proud of the one you have but it is not ok to go waving it around in public and trying to ram it down other peoples throats.

----------


## Rushy

> Opinions are a lot like Religions and Penises.
> It is ok to have one and it is ok to be proud of the one you have but it is not ok to go waving it around in public and trying to ram it down other peoples throats.


That my friend is fucking classic.  I am chuckling away here with tears in my eyes after reading that.

----------


## stretch

Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one, and no one wants to hear yours.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## SlowElliot

Do you know how many kids they stuff into one classroom these days? I've seen 65!! I was in a class of 15.
Used the auckland motorway lately?
how can anyone think that we need more people?
Our infrastructure cannot cope.


Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk

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## SlowElliot

> Opinions are a lot like Religions and Penises.
> It is ok to have one and it is ok to be proud of the one you have but it is not ok to go waving it around in public and trying to ram it down other peoples throats.


Yip old as the ages that one.
I knew better and spoke up anyway.
I just really took offence to his comment.

Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk

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## Tahr

> Do you know how many kids they stuff into one classroom these days? I've seen 65!! I was in a class of 15.
> Used the auckland motorway lately?
> how can anyone think that we need more people?
> Our infrastructure cannot cope.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk


That's nothing to do with immigration and all about piss poor planning.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Do you know how many kids they stuff into one classroom these days? I've seen 65!! I was in a class of 15.
> Used the auckland motorway lately?
> how can anyone think that we need more people?
> Our infrastructure cannot cope.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk


We do not need more people however the worlds financial system revolves around growth and will collapse spectacularly without it.

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## northdude

don't get me started on this one

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## SlowElliot

> We do not need more people however the worlds financial system revolves around growth and will collapse spectacularly without it.


Very true, factual even.
But yeah don't get me started on that.
I've already dug myself a big enough hole.

Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk

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## SlowElliot

> That's nothing to do with immigration and all about piss poor planning.


Let's take the word immigration out of it and replace with growing population.

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## Maca49

> Very true, factual even.
> But yeah don't get me started on that.
> I've already dug myself a big enough hole.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk


And when in a big the best advice is to stop digging. :Have A Nice Day:

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## Maca49

Coronation Streets up shortly! Gotta go!!

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## SlowElliot

> And when in a big the best advice is to stop digging.


I'll take that advise.
BUT I'll close by saying I'm not a racist and I'm not an ass hole. 
I just want my kids and yours to be able to enjoy the same peaceful quiet new zealand I grew up in.

Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk

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## Tommy

> I'll take that advise.
> BUT I'll close by saying I'm not a racist and I'm not an ass hole. 
> I just want my kids and yours to be able to enjoy the same peaceful quiet new zealand I grew up in.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk


And nothing wrong with that

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## SlowElliot

> And nothing wrong with that


Thank you.
Like I said I'm poorly written and not great at expressing myself.

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## gadgetman

> I am an immigrant 
> 
> The reason migrants are winning is coz they are willing to turn up, do the work, and not whinge....
> 
> And hey, if you want to stop immigration, wait till all your kiwi brothers currently working over in Aus get sent back (fair is fair), and you have to compete with them... Then we will see who starts crying...
> 
> Just saying


Immigrants show that they have plenty of 'get up and go' by the mere fact that they 'got up and went.' They tend to bring in more cultural variety too.

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## SlowElliot

> Immigrants show that they have plenty of 'get up and go' by the mere fact that they 'got up and went.' They tend to bring in more cultural variety too.


It's hard to find good help. 
I've seen alot of people come and go.
To be honest, I see the same range of work ethic in them as everyone else, at least in my workplace. Some are great some are useless.
Most people do the bare minimum and aren't interested at all in our moto of constant improvement.

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## Sideshow

> don't get me started on this one


Why is the next plate of popcorn even bigger than the last :Psmiley:

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## northdude

No I need to go hunting not sit here all day  :Have A Nice Day:

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## possum_shooter

> Opinions are a lot like Religions and Penises.
> It is ok to have one and it is ok to be proud of the one you have but it is not ok to go waving it around in public and trying to ram it down other peoples throats.


Yep there has been a lot of cock fights on this forum recently....yawn

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## SlowElliot

> Yep there has been a lot of cock fights on this forum recently....yawn


I quess you'll get that in any social media.
Generally I don't like people, but admit ive met a handful of good ones on here.
Joining this forum is the only social media experience I've had. After this argument I've decided it's not for me and I'm going to stick to real life interactions.
Goodbye and best luck to you all.

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## Tahr

The funny thing about this thread is that the original poster only posted the once, and then it took on a life of its own.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Pointer

> I am going to dedicate my full energy to this and hopefully make NZ better than I found it.


He's really busy at the moment Tahr  :Have A Nice Day:

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## kotuku

> I quess you'll get that in any social media.
> Generally I don't like people, but admit ive met a handful of good ones on here.
> Joining this forum is the only social media experience I've had. After this argument I've decided it's not for me and I'm going to stick to real life interactions.
> Goodbye and best luck to you all.


good honest open debate is common on here squire and whilst it sometimes does get heated(Im no bloody angel in that respect),why not stay on and look a little further.a hell of a lot of postings on here are absolutely bloody priceless and full of good old commonsense which i s more than a bloody lot of social media forums ive seen.

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## 7mmwsm

> good honest open debate is common on here squire and whilst it sometimes does get heated(Im no bloody angel in that respect),why not stay on and look a little further.a hell of a lot of postings on here are absolutely bloody priceless and full of good old commonsense which i s more than a bloody lot of social media forums ive seen.



Holy shit Kotuku have you been ready systolics links on grammar etc. That's one of the most coherent pieces I've seen you post.
Or are you just messing with our heads?

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## Sideshow

Nar he's pulling the wool :Grin:  read his first post in the link http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...ll-arms-34435/

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## northdude

> Holy shit Kotuku have you been ready systolics links on grammar etc. That's one of the most coherent pieces I've seen you post.
> Or are you just messing with our heads?


Yea I actually understood that post  :Have A Nice Day:

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## norsk

Immigration does keep the wages low in certain sectors. I am a kiwi in Norway,started a business here in 2007. I found that i could make a profit running at 20% less turn over than my compeditors by employing non norwegians (other immigrants). Now ALL the other companies in town do the same to remain compeditive.

Sucks for the locals but thats the way it is.

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## 7mmwsm

> Nar he's pulling the wool read his first post in the link http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...ll-arms-34435/


That was the one where systolic (mr google) post the link. This last one appeared quite polished.
(my post was meant to read "been reading systolics links". Auto correct on phone thought it knew more than me.)

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## Pointer

I personally like kotuku's 'stream of consciousness' writing style. He's like a goose shooting Kerouac

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## 7mmwsm

Please don't think I'm have a negative shot at Kotuku. But I do have to be in the right frame of mind to properly decipher some of his longer posts.

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## Gibo

Waikato helps Jeff  :Grin:

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## Nickoli

> That was the one where systolic (mr google) post the link. This last one appeared quite polished.
> (my post was meant to read "been reading systolics links". Auto correct on phone thought it knew more than me.)


I'm surprised you have the time to read a troll's links...or even check if they are worthwhile reading... :Have A Nice Day:

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## systolic

> I'm surprised you have the time to read a troll's links...or even check if they are worthwhile reading...


You don't need to read the link. Your written English is fine.

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## 7mmwsm

> Waikato helps Jeff


Don't hate me, but I have head cold so have been administering the required dose of Chivas Regal. That helps too.
I'll  be back to Waikato when I come right.

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## Rushy

Chivas Regal is good medicine.

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## gonetropo

> Chivas Regal is good medicine.


talisker single islay malt makes chivas taste like jw red !

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## Rushy

> talisker single islay malt makes chivas taste like jw red !


I will concede that it is not the greatest Whiskey you can find but very few germs survive a gargle with it and he has a head cold and that is what he has at hand.

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## 7mmwsm

> I will concede that it is not the greatest Whiskey you can find but very few germs survive a gargle with it and he has a head cold and that is what he has at hand.


You sound like my kind of doctor Rushy. I don't suppose you could write me out a prescription for a couple of bottles?

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## Rushy

> You sound like my kind of doctor Rushy. I don't suppose you could write me out a prescription for a couple of bottles?


Sure, it's in the post.

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