# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  Subsonic 308

## veitnamcam

As promised tested out the 90 gr xtp pistol pills today on a couple of small pigs in a sty.
Unfortunatly the rifle i developed the load in was out on loan so used a full length suppressed Tikka i had in the safe.
So can't say exactly the velocity but i went up .1 of a grain for longer barrel and it was still quiter than a springer air rifle.
Im picking 900-1000fps.
First one was down threw head as it ate a pie and of course it dropped on the spot. Totally smashed top of brain box and exited threw jaw . Found a small shard of copper under skin of exit.
Second one wasn't very cooperative after watching his mate but eventualy got broad side shot on it threw the hillar zone.

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## veitnamcam

Lept 2 steps and fell on its side with a garden hose of blood spurting out the exit. Maybe 5 6 seconds till just nerves.
Exit



Heart and lungs left blood from chest cavity right.



Took out the major blood vessels above heart and one lung. More than cal damage here.



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## veitnamcam

Entry



Exit





I think i can safely say it expanded however this was at ten feet.
Further out could show issues but can't be tested till tested.
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## veitnamcam

40 odd veiws and not one comment :Wut:

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## Toby

Comment. There ya go VC

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## ebf

looks like it did the business  :Have A Nice Day:  be interesting to hear your results at 100 to 200m type ranges.

what powder and load ?

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## veitnamcam

> looks like it did the business  be interesting to hear your results at *100 to 200m* type ranges.
> 
> what powder and load ?


 :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin: 

You gotta be kidding right? 70-80 odd yards would have to be a realistic max range with subsonic ammo, Rainbow trajectory and bugger all energy means you are basically shooting a bow but with another 40-50y effective range.(and you would have to range to be sure of your drop and proper placement)

I will try them on some goats at some stage a bit further out, I dont like wounding things so pigs in the sty was a good controlled situation to se if the expand up close and will work out from there.

That was 5.9gr trail boss fed brass pmc lr primer.

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## ebf

hmmm, i guess 200 would be pushing it  :Grin: 

holy crap ! if I typed in the correct numbers, you are only getting 161.8 ft/lb at point blank range... at 200m it would be below 100

you using the hollow point 309 XTP, BC = 0.115 (flying brick) ?

xtp's were the heads I used for carry loads on the 40S&W

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## Ground Control

I've just got 700 of these,  I'm not 100% sure exactly what they are but I've been told they are for a 30 M1 Carbine , 110gn hollow points .
I'm going to try them in my 308 with trail boss .I will load them up though because there is no real reason to go sub sonic here because of the no moderators law .
Anyone have an idea of how fast trailboss will push 110gn bullets ,all the info I can find is related to 150gn




Ken

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## veitnamcam

Yea the 30 cal pistol pill. Dunno the bc, kinda irrelevant at the speed launched and intended effective range.
Be interestin to see how fast could get them goin but i don't have any powder fast enough for that.

Heavyer would be better to gain some energy.(cos speed is fixed) but they still have to expand at low velocity or your just goin to poke a hole threw with no real damage.
Can't wait to try some of spanners when he gets production up and running


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## ebf

what about using lite-ish solids ?

110gr 30cal barnes, or is that a dumb idea ?

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## CreepingDeath

I thought the idea was to use big long projectiles ie 220s that cause damage by tumbling through the animal

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## veitnamcam

> what about using lite-ish solids ?
> 
> 110gr 30cal barnes, or is that a dumb idea ?


Yep :thumbdown:

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## veitnamcam

> I thought the idea was to use big long projectiles ie 220s that cause damage by tumbling through the animal
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


If you can't get expansion and or fragmentation then that would be the next best thing.
How do you guarantee it tumbling tho and not just upsetting a bit and pissing off in a different direction in the animal.

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## Toby

> How do you guarantee it tumbling tho


Probably dumb answer but what if you took out all the rifling? I know you wouldn't do that to your .308 but a old .303 or something with a fucked barrel.

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## veitnamcam

Years ago i shot a red in the shoulder with military fmj that i hadn't cut enough off the tip out of my old 303 with almost no rifleing left and it ended up in the hind quarter, basicly turned 90 degrees to flight path inside the animal!

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## puku

> If you can't get expansion and or fragmentation then that would be the next best thing.
> How do you guarantee it tumbling tho and not just upsetting a bit and pissing off in a different direction in the animal.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Don't you just use the minimum about of powder to get the projectile out of the barrel and let the wind tumble it   :ORLY: 

On a serious note Cam, what would a projectile suited for the 30-30 go like as a sub?  Maybe even Hornadys 'FPX' projectile.

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## puku

AHH scratch that last comment, just re-read the first post "Pistol" projectile.  You are a bit more advanced than my thinking, with projectiles suited to sub sonic speed.

Looks like they were effective anyway, I wonder how far away they would be effective to.

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## CreepingDeath

Thats what i got from a greg duley arcitle on the subject. Also not long ago there was a write up called 338 ninja and he had special subsonic projectiles that were designed to fragment at low velocity and had like a 20 grain .17 sabot in the middle of it that went straight through

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## Gutshot

So any good recipes for subsonic loads for deer in 308? Cheers

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## veitnamcam

Can't say I have tried any others.
Still waiting on spanners :rolleyes: :Grin: 

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## Spanners

Send me your ph number Cam and we'll sort final billet size. 
Maybe then I can send you some to test  :Grin:

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## veitnamcam

Sent

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## hanse

> If you can't get expansion and or fragmentation then that would be the next best thing.
> How do you guarantee it tumbling tho and not just upsetting a bit and pissing off in a different direction in the animal.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Wee bit out of my league here but,  when the 5.56x45 was designed and tested before the "Nam" they were relying on the tumbling effect to cause massive wounding, now im pretty certain that the projectile was a 55gr pill called M193, Changed when the 556x45 became a Nato round in 77 because It was apparently inhumane due to the massive wounds it caused in comparasion to its small size.  It tumbled and yawed I believe because of its centre of gravity was close to the base of the pill. Its tendancy to yaw and tumble "could" well be recreated by using a 7.62 pill with a similar profile/scale to the M193. Unsure what the lower velocity will do but a naturally unstable projectile is just that so maybe worth a go. 110gr barnes hehehe

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## veitnamcam

Light weight 30cal pills are pretty much as long as they are round so even if it tumbles you might as well be shooting a round ball .

I can see the logic in tumbling but its to random and impact velocity is to low to produce significant wounding in a subsonic round.
You need a fragile copper jacket around a soft  lead core that will expand and fragment with sharp copper edges in heaviest weight you can stabilize .
Imho.

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## Spanners

> You need a fragile copper jacket around a soft  lead core that will expand and fragment with sharp copper edges in heaviest weight you can stabilize .
> Imho.


You're onto it  :Have A Nice Day: 
Want bonding?, hollow point?, plastic tip, lead tip, steel tip?

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## hanse

> Light weight 30cal pills are pretty much as long as they are round so even if it tumbles you might as well be shooting a round ball .
> 
> I can see the logic in tumbling but its to random and impact velocity is to low to produce significant wounding in a subsonic round.
> You need a fragile copper jacket around a soft  lead core that will expand and fragment with sharp copper edges in heaviest weight you can stabilize .
> Imho.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Sorry I think you misunderstood, I didn't mean use light pills, quite the opposite, the M193 was long so a 7.62 with a similar profile would probably be reasonably heavy. What I meant was that if the centre of gravity is towards the base, they are more likely to tumble.
 Heavy, long, frangible tumblers then are sure to be a winner!!
The ones you are using sure dealt to little piggy anyhow, so keep up the good work!

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## veitnamcam

> You're onto it 
> Want bonding?, hollow point?, plastic tip, lead tip, steel tip?


All irrelevant if it will expand violently fragment and retain around half its weight.

Whatever tip it needs to do that?

Bc is irrelevant also out to 80y 

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## Spanners

> All irrelevant if it will expand violently fragment and retain around half its weight.
> 
> Whatever tip it needs to do that?
> 
> Bc is irrelevant also out to 80y 
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Tip is more to initiate expansion
Something hard or non compressible will move something softer around it
Testing time soon  :Wink:

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## veitnamcam

> Tip is more to initiate expansion
> Something hard or non compressible will move something softer around it
> Testing time soon


Something hard but with very low density will have no momentum and stop suddenly while the projectile expands around it.
But if soft enough should not need anything ?

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## Spanners

> Something hard but with very low density will have no momentum and stop suddenly while the projectile expands around it.
> But if soft enough should not need anything ?
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


In theory
1/2 of this is still theory until we send finished lead ------> that way  :Have A Nice Day: 
Helping the expansion is the key and there is a number of options avail in the tooling that's done.

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## kimjon

The logic of using the big 240gr SMK's (that the original 300Wispers were shooting) is that the high BC of those bullets allowed it to retain about 90% of it velocity and energy all the way out to about 300m. It's like a giant freight-train...once it reaches top speed, it takes a long time to slow down again.

Energy is Ke=1/2m.v2       (2 is ment to be squared, but I can't figure out how to insert the correct symbol)

So velocity (v) is the most important part of this equation as it squared. But since we want to limit the velocity to subsonic, then to get some of the killing power back we need to up the weight as much as possible. If you could find a heavy (240gr ish) bullet that will expand at subsonic velocities, then you'll have a very good killer of game.

My 30Apache is average at best at killing using the 240gr SMK's. The results would be the same no matter what was driving it (.308, 300Wisper, 300blackout...doesn't really matter) as the exit velocity is going to be the same. Its the projectile that's the limiting factor and no matter what I've tried they all suck when compared to high velocity rounds.

Keep us posted VC if you do find a good killer, as I'd love to make my rifle more effective than it is now.

kj

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## veitnamcam

Yep dead right velocity is fixed so more weight= more energy, however unless you have built something with a fast twist with subs in mind you aint going to stabilise a 240 at sub velocity in your average 1 in 12-1 in 10 twist factory 308.

Dunno what weights Spanners has in mind but no doubt will find out shortly :Wink: 

Who wants to lend me some NV? just sorted some private access :Thumbsup:

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## Matt2308

Surely something along the lines of an upscaled .22lr hollow point projectile would be as effective as anything else!
At subsonic impact speeds, fragmentation of bullets is unlikely and certainly unpredictable, even if bone is hit.  
A cast lead projectile, with a hollow point, designed to expand at low speeds in .30 cal is going to make a big wound  and with enough weight, will still get good penetration. 
I've recovered .22lr bullets that have expanded to around .45 diameter so a .30 cal of the same design is going to be pretty effective!

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## Spanners

I hope to be able to go up to 260gr lead tip hollow point but it may top out at 240
260 would be a push to stabilize anyway depending on the nose profile. 
Have got 1.5 and 6S IIRC

The options I have avail are:
-jacketed lead tip hollow point
- jacketed hollow point
- jacketed plastic ball tip
- jacketed steel ball tip
- jacketed round nose

All nose lead sections split internally
Options for:
Serrated jackets
Bonded cores
Rebated boat tail

Also have 44 cal in the above less the split core and serrated jackets

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## veitnamcam

Penitration is not the issue, the issue is using all or almost all the avalable energy inside the vital zone of the animal.
Best way to do that is fragmentation and sharp edges to cut and cause damage.
Its not an easy ask of a subsonic projectile but Im sure it can be done.

Not that I would but Im sure I could put a round tip on a bit of 12mm round bar and drive it threw a deer in a crush, let it out and watch it trot round untill it staggered and fell over.

For me its not enough to poke a hole threw something,it has to cause damage.

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## kimjon

Hmmm just thinking out loud, but how about a massive dia 1/4" hollow point that is then re-packed with some lead shotgun shot?

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## veitnamcam

That could work.............maybe

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## Spanners

See the plastic and steel tipped options  :Have A Nice Day:

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## kimjon

I just made a prototype (rough as guts) but the light is too shit to get a pic. Will post pic tomorrow..
But basically i just used a mini cutoff wheel in my die grinder to cut 4 slits on the front 1/3 (but not the very tip) through the jacket of a 240smk so it will peel back like a banana?

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## Spanners

> I just made a prototype (rough as guts) but the light is too shit to get a pic. Will post pic tomorrow..
> But basically i just used a mini cutoff wheel in my die grinder to cut 4 slits on the front 1/3 (but not the very tip) through the jacket of a 240smk so it will peel back like a banana?


I've got a jacket serrater die for that purpose
6 serrations IIRC. Not at home at the mo to check

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## kimjon

Rubbish pic, but you get the idea. Kim's sub-smasher V1.1



Four slits cut lengthwise, starting a few mm from the hollow point nose. The idea is that the nose should tear off or expand on impact...then the jacket should rip apart along the four cut ''slits''. The rear section should remain fairly intact and would weigh about 160gr on its own, so hopefully this will smash its way right through both shoulders tearing a large hole along the way????

Well that's the idea anyway, only one way to find out? Will take it out for a hunt next week and see if the theory matches reality?

kj

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## veitnamcam

Post up results :thumbup:

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## Beavis

> Wee bit out of my league here but,  when the 5.56x45 was designed and tested before the "Nam" they were relying on the tumbling effect to cause massive wounding, now im pretty certain that the projectile was a 55gr pill called M193, Changed when the 556x45 became a Nato round in 77 because It was apparently inhumane due to the massive wounds it caused in comparasion to its small size.  It tumbled and yawed I believe because of its centre of gravity was close to the base of the pill. Its tendancy to yaw and tumble "could" well be recreated by using a 7.62 pill with a similar profile/scale to the M193. Unsure what the lower velocity will do but a naturally unstable projectile is just that so maybe worth a go. 110gr barnes hehehe


The cannelure on the M193 causes it to break apart when it tips over, if speed is sufficient. The change over I believe was due to concerns about defeating body armor - M855 has a steel penetrator. 

Back on topic, what about a 110gr V max? Yay/nay?

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## veitnamcam

Don't think the vmax would work being designed to be launched at well over 3k.  The pistol pills do work just need to be heavyer .

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## Beavis

Roger, was just thinking thin jacket might = some degree of expansion at low velocity

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## kimjon

Okay, getting serious now...the V1.1 sub-smasher is loaded ready to go. I'll load up ten or so and I'll take a day off work next week to find some goats to trial it on. Poor goats, they seam to be my default testing medium these days for all my projects.



If the general concept works out, then I'll make up a jig to get a more ''professional'' finish.

kj

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## PerazziSC3

looks like it could work. I have the powder now, all im waiting on is a decent projectile to start loading some of these for the 308. Following with interest

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## kimjon

And slightly more serious (yes I have OCD), just to make sure that my results are based on a few kills (hopefully?)



kj

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## veitnamcam

Let us know how they go 

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## kimjon

> Let us know how they go 
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2



Results here http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...94/#post117907

kj

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## Spanners

What thickness is the 240 SMK jacket in the nose section?

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## kimjon

> What thickness is the 240 SMK jacket in the nose section?


Ahh, you're onto it spanners, I just filed the tip off one to see and its real thick! Maybe 1mm and hard as fuck! The hollow point is only in the jacket material too, so nothing in the lead.

So this inspired V1.2

Braking news: Version 1.2 is now out!!!!

I filed the tip off, turns out the jacket material is very thick. Then I drilled a very long hole, and did my ''flutes'' as well, followed by using a primer flash-hole deburring tool to put a nice bevel on the inside of the hollow point.


Puling the bullet


Drilling the massive hollow point hole (20mm deep)


Cutting the flutes


Deburring tool used to open up the front of hollow point


V1.2   V1.1   and standard 240grSMK for comparison.


Now I just need some more time to fully test it again - fingers crossed?

kj

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## Spanners

The jackets ill be using are Hornady AMP jackets. 
Measure 0.4mm thick in the nose section 

The pushed base 1st through this die


The core is seated with this punch to weaken the core nose


Then hollow point cavity is made


Plastic or steel ball set into the hole then nose formed in 1.5 radius


On a note of progression, Vietnamcam made me some nice lead billet moulds which arrived today. 
If the rain does down ill try and pour one and make some wire for the cores

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## kimjon

A wee bit more professional looking than my backyard attempt. But hey, I'm still working out the bugs in the prototype.

I'll be very keen to see what results you get.

kj

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## Spanners

Ill send you some up to have a play with when done
Will just be flat base as wont have chance to sort the rebates boat tails immediately

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## kimjon

> Ill send you some up to have a play with when done
> Will just be flat base as wont have chance to sort the rebates boat tails immediately


That sounds awesome, thank you.

kj

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## veitnamcam

Id be keen on a few.

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## Spanners

> Id be keen on a few.


You'll get a few lol

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## Spanners

Found an off cut of wire so had a play
1st 4 30 cal
All with serrated jackets and split cores
They are rough as I wanted to see what  weights can be made
From left to right 230gr 1E, 245gr 1E , 245gr 1E hollow point, 245gr HP 6S nose 


The big HP measures 8mm deep and 3mm wide

208 for size comparison 


300 blackout/whisper case


All on all pretty happy for what was nothing more that proving time for the sizing of dies. 
Could prob go heavier on the lead tip HP and will go 220-230 on the ball tipped ones.

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## veitnamcam

How light can you go? Im 1 in 11

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## Spanners

Light as you want really within reason 
I was just jamming lead in to see how heavy could go
200gr would prob work sweet with jacket closing around the nose of the ball like my 44 cal ones I did ages ago

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## Spanners

Just for you cam- found another bit of wire 
204gr with ~7mm ball in the hollow point - fits jacket perfect
Next to 235 RN
I fucked up point form on the yellow tip- too much pressure hence the dent in the top from the ejection pin

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## veitnamcam

Reckon they will stabilize out of 1/11 at 1050fps?

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## veitnamcam

I think make em as frangible as you possibly can for a start, 200 odd grains is plenty of energy if you can just get most of it in the animal

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## Spanners

Maybe not?
I'm out of wire to try a 180
Started to melt some lead on the BBQ today and it started to spit. Fuck that for a laugh!

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## Spanners

> I think make em as frangible as you possibly can for a start, 200 odd grains is plenty of energy if you can just get most of it in the animal


Got all the possible bases covered that I can come up with
AMP jackets, serrated jackets, split core and ball to fill the tip and initiate exp

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## veitnamcam

Molten lead and molten water dont mix ay  :Wink:

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## Spanners

> Molten lead and molten water dont mix ay


Wasn't going to chance fate

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## Spanners

Just went to mates and poured a couple of billets in Cams sweet mould tubes he made
Perfect!
Billets just shock straight out. 
Wire making tomorrow  :Have A Nice Day:

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## kimjon

This is starting to get real interesting. Just one question; will the long bearing surface cause any perceivable issues? 

Kj

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## PerazziSC3

Anyone no what a rem model 7 .308 twist rate is? ? Bearing surface looks huge on those first pills. Following with interest

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## Spanners

Bearing surface IS huge
It will be reduced with the rebated boat tails and some more refinement work in the front end
I don't see it being an issue but if it is I have got a bore rider (stepped) die available if need be
I just wanted to make sure I could get into the top end of the weight range. 245+ is MORE than heavy enough as its prob getting to the end of a 1:8/9 twists usability 
I'm running down the path of fragile front end and  pushing the front end open from the inside out

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## Spanners

No wire making this weekend as the button I have is for the 44s- forgot to sort the 30 cal
Arse
Will get it sorted Monday

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## veitnamcam

Your targeting the black out guys obviously but if you could produce a sub pill that would perform in most 308 win(1/10 1/12) you would open up your market :Have A Nice Day:

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## Spanners

Not the BLK guys- 30 cal  :Have A Nice Day: 
End of the day it doesn't matter if its a WM RUM 308 or BLK, if its doing 1050fps the performance is going to be the same
I started on this 'project' prob before the BLK come out.FINALLY coming together 

It's a weight issue for twist
The big boys are going to need a fast twist obviously but the Balance is going to be almost the middle where the likes of a hybrid or Amax is a lot further back and need more RPM to stabilize

Time will tell
What do YOU want weight wise?

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## PerazziSC3

I would have thought 180grain would be pretty safe for stabilisation in most rifles whilst still having enough energy. As long as they EXPAND energy shouldn't matter AS much, dont think their will be enough energy for hydrostatic shock so you need lots of cutting edges and big frontal area to cause the trauma. my 2c

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## veitnamcam

Im no expert on stabilisation, I want as heavy as my 1/11 twist will stabilise at 1050fps.......... and I want it to explode! :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## kimjon

Sorry to parrot this in two threads, but I thought I'd chuck it in here just in case someone does a search and doesn't look at the results in my other one.

Okay, its going to be a few weeks before I can take another day off work to ''test'' this ammo on some game, so being a little impatient I decided to shoot it into a bucket of water instead. I had the bucket on top of some loose (wet) sawdust from the calf shed (last years calf shit = this years garden mulch). The shot ruptured the sides of the bucket and I had to dig the bullet out of the sawdust after the shot:







The long drill hole did its job, with two out of the four sides shearing completely off. If I were to take the cuts a little further forwards I believe that all four sides would shear off and that is basically what I'd call a success.

Next, to try it on some game to see if this is going to be a winner?

kj

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## Spanners

What size was the HP and how deep?

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## PerazziSC3

Nice kimjon, can i suggest you try one of your previous pills, the ones with just the cuts in the jacket, not the enlarged hollow point, in the same bucket of water test. Since you no how they perform on game you should be able to make a pretty good comparision to your new model!

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## kimjon

> What size was the HP and how deep?


Dia5mm x 20mm deep, then used the primer flash-hole deburring tool to further open up the nose a little more.




> Nice kimjon, can i suggest you try one of your previous pills, the ones with just the cuts in the jacket, not the enlarged hollow point, in the same bucket of water test. Since you no how they perform on game you should be able to make a pretty good comparision to your new model!


Normally I would, but I'm out of buckets haha...

I'm pretty sure my first modified SMK's (V1.1 flutes only, no hollow point) didn't open up at all judging by the pin holes it was leaving in the goats on the exit side. I know a few people who have tested the standard 240smk ''in the bucket'' a few years ago and it hardly deformed them at all...some even looked like you could use them again except for the rifling marks left behind :Have A Nice Day: 

As Spanners clicked onto earlier, the jacket material on the SMK is very thick and the hollow point itself is superficial i.e. only in the tip of the jacket and nothing at all in the lead behind. However by drilling the 20mm deep hole into them its seams to have fixed that issue.

kj

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## puku

How much weight have you taken out by drilling that hole? It must be a fair chunk

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## veitnamcam

Attn spanners.

How is production coming along?

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## Spanners

Funny you should ask. Waiting for a mate to arrive and we're going to squirt some wire tonight

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## veitnamcam

Sweet. 
Keep us posted .

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## Spanners

Wire making Vid

Turns a 110mmx19mm billet from the mould Veitnamcam made for me into 1100mm of 6mm diameter wire for use as cores for 30 cal jacketed projectiles
Uses approx 2000 psi to push it through 




Finished wire

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## veitnamcam

Sweet. I bet its pretty hot, were you dumb enough to grab it? :Grin: 

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## Spanners

> Sweet. I bet its pretty hot, were you dumb enough to grab it?
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Gloves  :Grin:

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## veitnamcam

Pussy  :Grin: 

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## Spanners

Fucking Chinese 3kw transformer puked on me  :Sad: 
Got cores swaged, seated and 1st stage of boat tail formed. 
Around 197gr at the mo IIRC.

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## ARdave

Looking good man  :Grin:

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## Spanners

Went and got another TX
Without ball 196gr, with 198gr - ball is 6mm. 
HP is almost 12mm deep and about 4.2 at case mouth. 
They should stabilize ok in a 10 or 11 twist as no weight up front. 
Jackets serated
Cores not X split as the punch is designed around ~220gr weight. There is a lot of dead space in the front of these an this a little short. 
Not sure if the RBT has enough forming pressure as the transition has a roundish corner on it and would like it to be sharper.

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## veitnamcam

Cool:thumbup:
Is there not enough length in the punch to run it further in separate the core?
How about if the jacket was shorter?


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## Spanners

Core splitter punch is used in the jacket after seated. If run down further the jacket gets stuck on the punch 
Not a prob where the lead is closer to the mouth  on a heavier pill. 
Could make jacket smaller but a lot of work. 
These are AMax AMP jackets

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## Kiwi Greg

> Core splitter punch is used in the jacket after seated. If run down further the jacket gets stuck on the punch 
> Not a prob where the lead is closer to the mouth  on a heavier pill. 
> Could make jacket smaller but a lot of work. 
> These are AMax AMP jackets


You going to send me some to test ?  :Grin:

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## veitnamcam

> You going to send me some to test ?


Get in line

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Spanners

You can see the split core in this pic. It has picked up copper and peeled it down on top. Looks mint but stuck on the punch 
Split about 1/2 from case mouth  :Have A Nice Day:

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## veitnamcam

That looks the biz

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Spanners

A lot more aggressive and split than the pic shows

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## ebf

Dumb question, but what are you going to end up with weight wise, and how does that differ from available 30cal heads ?

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## Spanners

150-250gr ish
RBBT
Serated jackets
Split core
Huge HP or balls
1E or 6S nose 
In a Amax AMP jacket 

Based on the current die selection almost endless options of things you can't buy.

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## kimjon

Looking good, keen to see how it goes on game?

kj

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## ebf

Kewl, designer ammo  :Grin:  had to look up RBBT.

Did you just get 30 cal dies or others as well ?

If you're coming out for a shoot tomorrow, bring you fly rod, can do version 0.1 of a casting lesson.

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## veitnamcam

Any closer to poking out some bullets  @Spanners ?

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## Spanners

I wish!
I'm in Korea doing stuff with this

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## Micky Duck

food for thought..... size 7.5 steel bird shot fits neatly into 40 grn Winchester subsonic .22lr ammo slight tap in and it stays in place and they really open up inside bunny........haven't been game to try #2 in 151grn cast hp off trademe but thought is there.................
they work ok as they are..head shot one of my sheep at 30ish yards and it went right through skull from front exiting in pithing hole...naaasty on bunnies,no goats to try it on and haven't tried it on wobblie yet.

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## veitnamcam

I cant see how a hardened steel ball would "open up" in anything or why you would shoot it down any rifled barrel you don't hate.

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## Micky Duck

well inside the lead, no show of it touching rifling or I wouldn't have done it...and same theory as ballistic tip..its harder than the surrounding lead so on impact drives back into it starting expansion

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## veitnamcam

oh I see, I was wondering how 7.5 fit down 5.56  :Grin: 

I don't shoot birds so not up on how shot size works sorry.

Have done some experimentation on balls in the nose, in theory a very light but hard ball should basically stop on impact due to lack of mass while the soft but heavy lead/copper carries on expanding around it.

in practise in my experimentation a decent hollow point/skiving and hydraulic action on the inside of the hollow point is more effective.

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## Micky Duck

#7.5 shot is tiny...maybe 1.5mm across for quail or pigeons.

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## Micky Duck

reason I tried it is the 42grn Winchester PP works a treat in my norinco and kills very well but the 40 grn not so much...thought to self why not???

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## Rocky

Cher.

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## Marty Henry

Trailboss isn't for speed it's for casefull fun!. the carbine bullets can be pushed to round 3000 fps in the 308 with the right powder, makes a good rabbit round and also works on hares and goat's

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## Marty Henry

> I've just got 700 of these,  I'm not 100% sure exactly what they are but I've been told they are for a 30 M1 Carbine , 110gn hollow points .
> I'm going to try them in my 308 with trail boss .I will load them up though because there is no real reason to go sub sonic here because of the no moderators law .
> Anyone have an idea of how fast trailboss will push 110gn bullets ,all the info I can find is related to 150gn
> 
> 
> Ken


Trailboss isn't for speed it's for full case fun. With the right powder you can push the carbine bullets to round 3000 fps in the 3006 and 308 pretty explosive at the terminal end red mist rabbits.

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## ANTSMAN

keen to buy some when theyre ready.

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## Micky Duck

update????????

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## Spanners

I'm in the shed right now clearing shit in the direction of the press  :Grin:

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## Dan88

i have just brought a suppressed .308 ans was thinking about subsonic rounds, did some searching and found this thread. very interested in hearing how everyone got on with this.
is the idea with subsonic rounds to get as heavier projectile as possible? to have the same ft/lb as a lighter faster travling projectile?
found these projectiles that seem fairly weighty
Frontier Projectiles 30CAL Game Ranger *Choose Your Weight & Type* 100x

cheers

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## Carpe Diem

> i have just brought a suppressed .308 ans was thinking about subsonic rounds, did some searching and found this thread. very interested in hearing how everyone got on with this.
> is the idea with subsonic rounds to get as heavier projectile as possible? to have the same ft/lb as a lighter faster travling projectile?
> found these projectiles that seem fairly weighty
> Frontier Projectiles 30CAL Game Ranger *Choose Your Weight & Type* 100x
> 
> cheers


I've got a few of these if you want to have a try. I've been using them in my 300 blackout with great success subsonically on goats and possums 9+ grains of 2205. 

www.lehighbullets.com they curl into 4 petals like a broad head and do some amazing terminal damage. Well worth a look.


I hear from the guys at reloaders that a few people now bring them in.

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## Spanners

I wish!
I'm in Korea doing stuff with this

----------


## Micky Duck

food for thought..... size 7.5 steel bird shot fits neatly into 40 grn Winchester subsonic .22lr ammo slight tap in and it stays in place and they really open up inside bunny........haven't been game to try #2 in 151grn cast hp off trademe but thought is there.................
they work ok as they are..head shot one of my sheep at 30ish yards and it went right through skull from front exiting in pithing hole...naaasty on bunnies,no goats to try it on and haven't tried it on wobblie yet.

----------


## veitnamcam

I cant see how a hardened steel ball would "open up" in anything or why you would shoot it down any rifled barrel you don't hate.

----------


## Micky Duck

well inside the lead, no show of it touching rifling or I wouldn't have done it...and same theory as ballistic tip..its harder than the surrounding lead so on impact drives back into it starting expansion

----------


## veitnamcam

oh I see, I was wondering how 7.5 fit down 5.56  :Grin: 

I don't shoot birds so not up on how shot size works sorry.

Have done some experimentation on balls in the nose, in theory a very light but hard ball should basically stop on impact due to lack of mass while the soft but heavy lead/copper carries on expanding around it.

in practise in my experimentation a decent hollow point/skiving and hydraulic action on the inside of the hollow point is more effective.

----------


## Micky Duck

#7.5 shot is tiny...maybe 1.5mm across for quail or pigeons.

----------


## Micky Duck

reason I tried it is the 42grn Winchester PP works a treat in my norinco and kills very well but the 40 grn not so much...thought to self why not???

----------


## Rocky

Cher.

----------


## Marty Henry

Trailboss isn't for speed it's for casefull fun!. the carbine bullets can be pushed to round 3000 fps in the 308 with the right powder, makes a good rabbit round and also works on hares and goat's

----------


## Marty Henry

> I've just got 700 of these,  I'm not 100% sure exactly what they are but I've been told they are for a 30 M1 Carbine , 110gn hollow points .
> I'm going to try them in my 308 with trail boss .I will load them up though because there is no real reason to go sub sonic here because of the no moderators law .
> Anyone have an idea of how fast trailboss will push 110gn bullets ,all the info I can find is related to 150gn
> 
> 
> Ken


Trailboss isn't for speed it's for full case fun. With the right powder you can push the carbine bullets to round 3000 fps in the 3006 and 308 pretty explosive at the terminal end red mist rabbits.

----------


## ANTSMAN

keen to buy some when theyre ready.

----------


## Micky Duck

update????????

----------


## Spanners

I'm in the shed right now clearing shit in the direction of the press  :Grin:

----------


## Dan88

i have just brought a suppressed .308 ans was thinking about subsonic rounds, did some searching and found this thread. very interested in hearing how everyone got on with this.
is the idea with subsonic rounds to get as heavier projectile as possible? to have the same ft/lb as a lighter faster travling projectile?
found these projectiles that seem fairly weighty
Frontier Projectiles 30CAL Game Ranger *Choose Your Weight & Type* 100x

cheers

----------


## Carpe Diem

> i have just brought a suppressed .308 ans was thinking about subsonic rounds, did some searching and found this thread. very interested in hearing how everyone got on with this.
> is the idea with subsonic rounds to get as heavier projectile as possible? to have the same ft/lb as a lighter faster travling projectile?
> found these projectiles that seem fairly weighty
> Frontier Projectiles 30CAL Game Ranger *Choose Your Weight & Type* 100x
> 
> cheers


I've got a few of these if you want to have a try. I've been using them in my 300 blackout with great success subsonically on goats and possums 9+ grains of 2205. 

www.lehighbullets.com they curl into 4 petals like a broad head and do some amazing terminal damage. Well worth a look.


I hear from the guys at reloaders that a few people now bring them in.

----------

