# Hunting > Game Bird Hunting >  Is that a pukeko or a Takahe Oooops!

## stug

Deerstalkers mis-identify pukekos Hunters kill takahe during pukeko cull - National - NZ Herald News

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## GravelBen

Makes a change from DOC killing them I guess! They'll be glad to have someone else to blame this time.

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## Munsey

Ngai Tahu where none to pleased , would not like to be the person(s) getting arse kicking by them  . Good to see them also mention the  5 wood pigeons (no double standards)

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## Tommy

Takahe sandwiches better be the shit

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## Ryan

Takahe hors d'oeuvres!

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## kiwijames

It was a founding member of NZDA who found them (again) so lets just call this square?

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## 338 man

Thats a shame but lets keep it real. I seem to remember a DOC guy shooting one once on the coast.
Darwin had a theory once. If an Auckland NZDA member can get one then maybe they should be extinct. Ha Ha Ha Ha
Fuc i hope that was funny coz ive been drinking again and dont want a telling off

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## 7mmwsm

I wonder if this will go viral like poor old Cecil?

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## gimp

Someone fucking up and killing one in the past doesn't excuse this fuckup

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## Gibo

Poor form

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## gimp

Not only did some idiot[s] negligently kill 4 of 250 odd birds remaining of an endangered species, their fuckup reflects very badly on the rest of us, as does anyone that laughs it off

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## INOV8A

This makes me really mad!

Deerstalkers to shoot gamebirds??

To be fair most of the members are city folk who may get out once a month to take their gun for a walk. They are NOT experienced hunters and certainly not the professionals required to do a delicate job like this!

 :Pissed Off:

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## 199p

Don't the game bird relegations come in? i.e must be inflight?
Being that they cant fly ........... 

Ill put my hand up asking for an ass kicking session for the shooter

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## stug

It is quite clever of DOC, get someone else to do a job for free (probably) and then when it gets buggered up they have someone else to blame.

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## Gibo

> Don't the game bird relegations come in? i.e must be inflight?
> Being that they cant fly ........... 
> 
> Ill put my hand up asking for an ass kicking session for the shooter


The report did mention they were told to only shoot them on the wing........

"The hunters were carefully briefed on how to tell the difference between them, including instructions to only shoot birds on the wing, he said."

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## ebf

Not good at all. Takahe breeding pairs form very strong bonds. Considering that only a portion of the 200-250 remaining birds are at a viable breeding age, something like this can have a massive impact on genetic diversity and species survival.

It's gotten to a point where chicks from one pair are sent to a different part of the country to increase diversity. One of the female chicks from the pair at Karori Sanctury (when they were still breeding at Mana Is) went up to Mangatauteri.

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## Maca49

He probalbly miss understood on thought he said IN the wing, theres bugger all difference in the words? Where are the professional, experience people when you need them.DOC Have a poor record in this area IMHO

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## ebf

> Where are the professional, experience people when you need them.


They are all lurking here Macca  :ORLY:  Seems like DOC can do no right for a lot of folks on here...

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## gsp follower

presumembly doc let them know takehe were there and pointed out the simalarities??
tragic mistake but in the scheme of things pales in comparison to what 1080,s bowled over.
gives doc an excuse not to work with nzda tho.

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## Maca49

Should have painted a white cross on the Takahe before the event. Hope the meat didnt go to waste, Should have a a ceremonial lunch for the fat pigs in parliment.

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## Toby

Who cares? Honestly how many of you would even know they didnt exsist anymore if they all died and no one said a thing. Better things to spend money and time on rather then 250 fucking birds

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## Munsey

Toby when you see there natural habitat , you will then understand what a cool bird they are . We got to fly over the Murchison mts to the wapiti blocks . Impressive to say the least ! .

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## ebf

Toby, valid point of view, but I really hope you get to a point where trying to save species like Kakapo, Takahe and Tuatara means something.

The are absolutely unique, and tell the story of how NZ's ecosystem is so different from anything else in a fantastic way. Most folks would look at a Tuatara and go "oh, a big lizard", but they are endemic at the order level (uniqueness to the nth degree!)

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## madds

Deerstalkers hunt big brown animals that don't fly.
Game bird shooters including Game bird clubs and F&G  hunt flying game birds and make it their aim to be able to identify different types of bird.
Yet another DOC cock up, where does it stop?!!!

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## mikee

Using Volunteer's for a cull in the first place = Stupid move No 1
Then this

[QUOTE][/Deerstalkers hunt big brown animals that don't fly.
 Game bird shooters including Game bird clubs and F&G hunt flying game birds and make it their aim to be able to identify different types of bird.QUOTE]


and then heaven forbid why wasn't the Bigger Purple Pheasant "disappeared under the pile

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## TeRei

Stupidity knows no boundaries.

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## Kscott

> Deerstalkers mis-identify pukekos Hunters kill takahe during pukeko cull - National - NZ Herald News


Members of the NZDA.  Labelling them as just hunters is perpetuating the myth that it was folks who only hunt deer - the media is trying to id them as guys with guns having a blat, which is not the case.""It shows complete incompetence on DOC's part to bring in these Barry Crump-type good keen men." - Labour MP Rino Tirakatene. 

There's loads of people who are members of NZDA who don't hunt, and who are clay shooters, duck & game shooters, target shooters. 

They were also shot by shotgun, not a T3  :Wink:

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## madds

Kscott our newsroom could work it out this morning, Producers trying to understand what it meant, how can you shoot them in the wing.
Just ignorance of our sports. I was not in any way  denigrating NZDA as I think they do a fine outstanding job. 
You would think a Government Dept. would be required to source the best people for the most professional results, and yes I bet deerstalkers (Assn. or not) would be in that mix. 
If I offended any deerstalkers, sincere apologies, but it was to good a shot to not take it, in jest, in jest I add.

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## kotuku

lets face it -these birds hopefully were here one minute the gone unlike a bloody lot that suffered a lingering horrible death at the hands of DOC 1080.
Doc of course are too spineless to ever admit the wrongdoing and others which some canterbury folk are aware of but thats just repeating history eh.see old mad maggie the TV marigold mauler put her 5 bobs worth in.Katie Bradford(parliamentary TV reporter) ,bless her wee cotton knickers must have bumped into Maggie at the MPs canteen in parliament (or do they suck on the gin in bellamies for breakfast.?)and regaled her with the suitably tragic version of the tale!

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## stumpy

toby .....that's a terrible fuking attitude

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## jadeboyd7

What I find hard to believe is that the shooters did not identify there target beyond doubt whether is a bird or deer the same rules apply which nzda

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## jadeboyd7

Rules strongly adhere to

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## Maca49

> Who cares? Honestly how many of you would even know they didnt exsist anymore if they all died and no one said a thing. Better things to spend money and time on rather then 250 fucking birds


That's the problem Toby, they're not Fucking Birds! :Have A Nice Day:

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## shift14

> It was a founding member of NZDA who found them (again) so lets just call this square?



Yes, sadly ironic isn't it, 'Doc' Orbell, one of the founders of NZDA in 1937, rediscovered the Takahe in 1948.

He'd be turning in his grave..

All that hard work done by volunteers gone to waste.....tragic

B

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## mikee

> What I find hard to believe is that the shooters did not identify there target beyond doubt whether is a bird or deer the same rules apply which nzda


actually I would disagree as they look similar and would be hard to pick the difference if they were flying away from you at "Warp Factor 9, Mr Sulu" 

but more of a concern  

If I'm not mistaken Takahe are *FLIGHTLESS* so who was shooting them "not in flight"...........................................  ............

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## jadeboyd7

In that reasoning alot of protected waterfowl are fair game then

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## Maca49

I see Toby's point of view, the whole situation to me is a sham while we continue to poison habitats from the air and DOC has its head up its behind, I struggle to support the people trying to save birds in NZ. Cats Ferrets,Stoats Rats,Mice, some high end Moari thinking it's still ok to eat certain species, it's like pushing melted butter up a porcupines arse with a hot needle! We need a sane plan, but it ain't gonna happen with Mrs Smith and DOC, IMHO

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## veitnamcam

After having watched 1 news tonight and being told that the hunters were breifed to only shoot birds in the air and were even shown a live Takahe I can only say that this is a very disappointing result.

More bad press for hunters in  general.

Bad for NZDA is bad for all hunters member or not.

Doc have been working well with NZDA locally for the benefit of both party's tho I have privately heard of safety concerns from a involved member.

It would appear NZDA could do better in screening/training the membership joining these cull type events, That is where it gets really difficult tho...who is competent/capable and how do you determine that?

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## Maca49

> actually I would disagree as they look similar and would be hard to pick the difference if they were flying away from you at "Warp Factor 9, Mr Sulu" 
> 
> but more of a concern  
> 
> If I'm not mistaken Takahe are *FLIGHTLESS* so who was shooting them "not in flight"...........................................  ............


First shot head height, second shot in flight, but I've moved on :Grin:

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## jadeboyd7

> actually I would disagree as they look similar and would be hard to pick the difference if they were flying away from you at "Warp Factor 9, Mr Sulu" 
> 
> but more of a concern  
> 
> If I'm not mistaken Takahe are *FLIGHTLESS* so who was shooting them "not in flight"...........................................  ............


That comment also tells me that a deer looks like a cow

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## dogmatix

The retard antis are now using pages from this forum to back up their anti hunting comments on the Guardian's website

New Zealand conservationists apologise over accidental shooting of endangered takah

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## veitnamcam

> The retard antis are now using pages from this forum to back up their anti hunting comments on the Guardian's website
> 
> New Zealand conservationists apologise over accidental shooting of endangered takah



I cant see any reference to this or any other forum?

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## EeeBees

Nor I...

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## Maca49

Better to build 4 more nesting boxes in anticipation, you can bitch.moan,feel sick, protest, ring a few necks,and have an expensive enquiry, but you can't bring them back,

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## dogmatix

Comment has been deleted for not following guidelines.

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## 300CALMAN

no  @dogmatix I cant either...

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## Dundee

Oh Doc who the fuck is killing our birds now? Yes Doc you employed them. Four protected birds shot and no one gives a fuck about how many they 1080.....burp!

I haven't read all the posts yet :Sad:

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## MAJOR F

Bloody idoits they were told to shoot flying birds only ,they didnt follow instructions ........the public will think all hunters are idoits ...kick the sods in the arse they morons

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## doinit

> Oh Doc who the fuck is killing our birds now? Yes Doc you employed them. Four protected birds shot and no one gives a fuck about how many they 1080.....burp!
> 
> I haven't read all the posts yet


He who controls the media controls what the public are made to believe,yes it is sick.

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## gsp follower

> *Who cares? Honestly how many of you would even know they didnt exsist anymore if they all died and no one said a thing. Better things to spend money and time on rather then 250 fucking birds*


a little harsh toby i feel the same way about some silly plant they were wipin out the kaimanawa horses for.
but if it was say the last 250 wild pheasants or canadas even parries,id be screamin blue bloody murder.
perhaps the should have got fish and game shooters who i imagine would be fairly conscious of the shoot in flight rules??
perhaps the poor deer hunters thought they were popin the fattest trophy pooks they,d ever seen.?? :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
its not funny :Oh Noes:  well it kind of is :ORLY:  to see doc and ngai tahu stampin its feet over 4 rare birds givin 1080 and pidgygate.
''what did sony tau say when caught at customs in the republic of southland''' you could have knocked me over with a feather'' :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
he wouldnt have got up easily either loaded down as he was  :O O:

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## Toby

What even is that argument? errr they are nzda shooters thats why they shot the wrong bird derpp

Just cause they are NZDA members doesnt mean they only go deer hunting ffs

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## Nick-D

Pretty poor showing, from both DOC and the NZDS, screening should be on an individual basis for people involved around delicate species like that. 4/250-300 gone is a huge blow to the species.
Whats the bet all 4 were done by 1 knobhead with an itchy finger

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## Maca49

I think your onto it Nick, a shoot up for the boys, with the circumstances there should have been vetting of the shooters, if there was they need an internal enquiry as to who fucked up :ORLY:

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## kiwijames

Pay peanuts you get monkeys.

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## Woody

> Yes, sadly ironic isn't it, 'Doc' Orbell, one of the founders of NZDA in 1937, rediscovered the Takahe in 1948.
> 
> He'd be turning in his grave..
> 
> All that hard work done by volunteers gone to waste.....tragic
> 
> B


Actually, the fellow that discovered the Takahe was Edgar Williams. He told Orbell where they were and Orbell , being s "scientist" went and "officially re-discovered them.

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## Woody

Be interesting to see the official NZDA version of events.

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## gsp follower

> Be interesting to see the official NZDA version of events.


IF IT TWERE ME ID BE SAYING ''BOSS I THOUGHT  IT WAS A FUCKIN HYBRID''
''i must of mistook its jumpin and wing flappin for flyin''
''thought the only reason it twerent flyin was cos it was to fat'' :Sick:

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## EeeBees

Apparently NZDA members have been involved in more than one of these culls and there have been no mishaps...

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## Woody

I'm curious to hear the NZDA version because the birds weren't reported until DoC found them a couple of days later via their attached transmitters. That would indicate to me that the person or persons who shot the birds either did not confirm the kills or deliberately did not report they had killed birds carrying transmitters. 

Have the birds been autopsied and confirmed killed by shotgun pellets? 

Is it possible there were other "unofficial" shooters on the island either before or after the cull?

 is it a possible set-up?
It seems very fishy to me that official NZDA hunters did deliberately not report a mistake immediately, because they must surely have known the transmitters  and birds would be found and quite apart from that fact, would presumably have been of good character to even be nominated by their branch to undertake the task. (Stupid decision as that may be--.)

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## Dundee

I think it all comes down to the media Woody. We are never told the truth.They just want there story.

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## Woody

I'm sure  Mr O'Leary will fully investigate, hopefully along with police and forensic scientists independent of DoC , Media or extreme greens. The truth will be interesting.

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## Maca49

The truth will be buried! God I'm a cynical bastard, I must change my mind set, I must change my mine set, I must change my mine set..........hahahahahahaha

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## Moutere

Woody, do you think they were shot from a grassy knoll, or book depository?  >winkyface<

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## timattalon

> I think it all comes down to the media Woody. We are never told the truth.They just want there story.



Headline news:

Media reports the truth. Yeah right!!!  Theres a Tui ad for you if ever I saw one. 

they can never let the truth get in the way of a story.

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## Woody

I don't blame you. be careful though cos I'm a 1080 terrorist  "person of interest". Buggered if I know why though  :15 4 128:

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## Maca49

> I don't blame you. be careful though cos I'm a 1080 terrorist  "person of interest". Buggered if I know why though


Goes to show how screwed up the cops are if your a " person of interest" obviously they haven't travelled far in a car with you! :Grin:

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## Maca49

> Woody, do you think they were shot from a grassy knoll, or book depository?  >winkyface<


The grassy knoll! The book depository was a decoy, a red heron so to speak?

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## Woody

Oh, undoubtably a co-operative effort old chap  :36 1 5:

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## Woody

> Woody, do you think they were shot from a grassy knoll, or book depository?  >winkyface<


Possibly shot from a helicopter bucket stained green!

Don't forget the Kiwi's killed on Little barrier Island which DoC conveniently  omitted to report until weeks later when a weed spraying crew found them.

Or the penguins poisoned with brodifacoum in the gulf.

Or the fallow herds at Wakatipu and the Blue Mountains

Or Zealandia poisoning the Karori with Derris dust to kill the brown trout (and everything else),  with DoC's blessing.

Or the thousands of Weka and Ruru wiped out

Or the rat plagues that occur after 1080 drops

Or the imminent 1080drop  by  TB Free and DoC  over the Whirinaki Forest park, where there are no farms.

Pollution of rivers with poisoned rotting carcasses

etc etc etc

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## EeeBees

> The grassy knoll! The book depository was a decoy, a red heron so to speak?


Very witty, Maca...

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## kiwijames

> I'm sure  Mr O'Leary will fully investigate, hopefully along with police and forensic scientists independent of DoC , Media or extreme greens. The truth will be interesting.


From the email sent out to all NZDA members, Bill O'Leary has _conceded that a Department of Conservation investigation will determine that the birds were killed by a member or members of the association._

Im reading from this, that the guilty party/s has already been man enough and admitted fault and unless Bill just bought a jumbo box of tin foil it's not saying DOC is going to push NZDA under the bus regardless.

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## kotuku

> Possibly shot from a helicopter bucket stained green!
> 
> Don't forget the Kiwi's killed on Little barrier Island which DoC conveniently  omitted to report until weeks later when a weed spraying crew found them.
> 
> Or the penguins poisoned with brodifacoum in the gulf.
> 
> Or the fallow herds at Wakatipu and the Blue Mountains
> 
> Or Zealandia poisoning the Karori with Derris dust to kill the brown trout (and everything else),  with DoC's blessing.
> ...


oh yes and while were about it .lets not forget DOCs ownership and efforts building the so called viewing platform at cave creek on the
 west coast. Puit together with 4"nails which led to 14people losing their lives as the bloody thing fell into the ravine!

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## Woody

> From the email sent out to all NZDA members, Bill O'Leary has _conceded that a Department of Conservation investigation will determine that the birds were killed by a member or members of the association._
> 
> Im reading from this, that the guilty party/s has already been man enough and admitted fault and unless Bill just bought a jumbo box of tin foil it's not saying DOC is going to push NZDA under the bus regardless.


Yes, I see what you mean kiwijames. however, I will reserve judgement until I know for sure  NZDA hunters have admitted the killings. birds which have transmitters fitted and regularly get handled by humans get stressed and mortality is not uncommon as a result. At present the information available to us (the public) is far too vague to draw a proper conclusion.

In saying this; if it is properly established that NZDA persons DID kill those birds, then I will feel deep regrets for  NZDA. But the loss of those birds is a sad thing for all NZ, regardless of cause.

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## kiwijames

> Yes, I see what you mean kiwijames. however, I will reserve judgement until I know for sure  NZDA hunters have admitted the killings. birds which have transmitters fitted and regularly get handled by humans get stressed and mortality is not uncommon as a result. At present the information available to us (the public) is far too vague to draw a proper conclusion.
> 
> In saying this; if it is properly established that NZDA persons DID kill those birds, then I will feel deep regrets for  NZDA. But the loss of those birds is a sad thing for all NZ, regardless of cause.


Yes, sad for sure. There will be no winner from any outcome and I hope the people do not get vilified like in the ridiculous Cecil debacle.

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## timattalon

> Yes, I see what you mean kiwijames. however, I will reserve judgement until I know for sure  NZDA hunters have admitted the killings. birds which have transmitters fitted and regularly get handled by humans get stressed and mortality is not uncommon as a result. At present the information available to us (the public) is far too vague to draw a proper conclusion.
> 
> In saying this; if it is properly established that NZDA persons DID kill those birds, then I will feel deep regrets for  NZDA. But the loss of those birds is a sad thing for all NZ, regardless of cause.


If this mortality is the case, then have they or not confirmed whether the birds were shot or simply found dead? Would the noise of shotguns be enough to stress them out to a fatal extent? Autopsies? If this is the case then perhaps they will need to consider a more delicate approach to pukeko control...

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## Maca49

Grass grubs laced with 1080?

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## Woody

> If this mortality is the case, then have they or not confirmed whether the birds were shot or simply found dead? Would the noise of shotguns be enough to stress them out to a fatal extent? Autopsies? If this is the case then perhaps they will need to consider a more delicate approach to pukeko control...


Until we hear the full detailed report then all things are possible timattalon.

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## Nick-D

I believe the first thing I read about it said shotgun pellets found in birds, I will try and find it. Could still be sensationalism though

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## Kscott

They were found with shotgun pellets inside them.




> DOC confirmed this morning an examination of the dead birds on the island sanctuary early this week showed they were killed by shotgun pellets.


FFS IQ levels have dropped recently. DOC confirms it, NZDA confirms it. How hard is it to understand ?????

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## gsp follower

[QUOTEDOC confirmed this morning an examination of the dead birds on the island sanctuary early this week showed they were killed by shotgun pellets][/QUOTE]
you cant get much past those doc boys  :Grin: 
except maybe common sence the truth and political nuetrality :Wink: 



> is it a possible set-up?
> It seems very fishy to me that official NZDA hunters did deliberately not report a mistake immediately,


you,ve obviously never heartd of stompers woody :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## Pointer

You know what? I'm with @Toby. Regardless of what we do now, the damage is done. 250 birds is not a viable population. I hope they stuff those Takahe carcasses so my grandchildren can see what we wasted so much money on. Basic population genetics would tell you that even with an even sex split and the Takehe's generational interval producing a couple of eggs a year means it's buggered anyways. A lot of running around introducing birds from different reserves to maintain diversity only to have it all wiped out by disease

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## Toby

Causally give you a like for agreeing with me  :Grin:

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## Dundee

> You know what? I'm with @Toby. Regardless of what we do now, the damage is done. 250 birds is not a viable population. I hope they stuff those Takahe carcasses so my grandchildren can see what we wasted so much money on. Basic population genetics would tell you that even with an even sex split and the Takehe's generational interval producing a couple of eggs a year means it's buggered anyways. A lot of running around introducing birds from different reserves to maintain diversity only to have it all wiped out by disease


The IWI probably got them to make a cloak

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## Tahr

> You know what? I'm with @Toby. Regardless of what we do now, the damage is done. 250 birds is not a viable population. I hope they stuff those Takahe carcasses so my grandchildren can see what we wasted so much money on. Basic population genetics would tell you that even with an even sex split and the Takehe's generational interval producing a couple of eggs a year means it's buggered anyways. A lot of running around introducing birds from different reserves to maintain diversity only to have it all wiped out by disease


Didn't we get down to just a couple of Robins at one stage? And they have bounced back?

And wasn't it the same with Jersey cows at one time Dundee, and there must be at least a hundred or so of them now aren't there?

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## Dundee

> Didn't we get down to just a couple of Robins at one stage? And they have bounced back?
> 
> And wasn't it the same with Jersey cows at one time Dundee, and there must be at least a hundred or so of them now aren't there?


Unfortunately we will not have a 100 cow herd this year Tahr :Sad:   But I do have a dead Takahe on the deck tonight. I will get a pic tomorrow. :ORLY:

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## Pointer

> Didn't we get down to just a couple of Robins at one stage? And they have bounced back?


If you mean the black Robin, then no. They are confined to two small islands and are less in number than the Takahe. Still better than the 7 they started with and a fantastic example of conservation but they are hardly out of the woods yet so to speak

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## madds

Doinit, don't think the media shot the birds!!! I think, yes I do work for the media TV in particular, and why does everyone blame the media for just reporting a story?
And yes in this case a good story of another failed DOC escapade. I know you can 'spin' it many ways but the actual facts are just that, DOC employees, contractors, friends, whatever shot those birds under their guidance.
I just hope some one, maybe twig & tweet brigade and their multitude of Wellington lobbyists will take to court. Cannot see to much difference between this and Sonny Tau myself.

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## Kscott

Sonny didn't accidentally put the birds in his pocket, he had intent, whereas DOC and NZDA have admitted it was a mistake.

What hasn't been released by both parties yet is the experience of the shooters involved for the environment that was required, however NZDA did state they've worked successfully with DOC for years on pest eradication. Just not this time.

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## gsp follower

> You know what? I'm with @Toby. Regardless of what we do now, the damage is done. 250 birds is not a viable population. I hope they stuff those Takahe carcasses so my grandchildren can see what we wasted so much money on. Basic population genetics would tell you that even with an even sex split and the Takehe's generational interval producing a couple of eggs a year means it's buggered anyways. A lot of running around introducing birds from different reserves to maintain diversity only to have it all wiped out by disease


not a believer in the each species loss diminishes us ''pointer??
imagine doc if moa still existed ? there,d be all the excuses in the world for the damage they,d cause erosion forest stripping because they wouldnt dare cull them. any control would involve weeks of iwi consultation and heaps of dough.
no gunships no 1080 :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:  personaly id put sonny tau on a fast for a month then turn him loose on the pesky moa.

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## Dundee

Warning graphic image below

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## Pointer

> not a believer in the each species loss diminishes us "pointer??


Frankly, no. I forget the percentage, but it is something like all the species alive at this point today are only 1% of all species that have ever existed on this planet. Extinction happens, and often for the smallest of reasons. Keeping a fat flightless pukeko alive with oodles of dosh when our own species needs all the help it can get astounds me. 
I know the above statement has probably offended every kiwi who reads this so I may as well go balls deep. 

Speaking of kiwis, at their present rate of decline despite our efforts they have 40 years. Sobering? Yep. Our current conservation model is as unsustainable as the species they are trying to save

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## gsp follower

> Frankly, no. I forget the percentage, but it is something like all the species alive at this point today are only 1% of all species that have ever existed on this planet. Extinction happens, and often for the smallest of reasons. Keeping a fat flightless pukeko alive with oodles of dosh when our own species needs all the help it can get astounds me. 
> *I know the above statement has probably offended every kiwi who reads this so I may as well go balls deep.* 
> 
> Speaking of kiwis, at their present rate of decline despite our efforts they have 40 years. Sobering? Yep. Our current conservation model is as unsustainable as the species they are trying to save


not neccessarily pointer i speak as one who thought the kaimanawa horses could eat or crap on the dozy little bollock moss who 99.9%of us will never see or want to, or whatever the excuse for knockin the shite out of them was.
its interesting if something cant handle the enviroment as it exists today given intence predator and competition control methods we have now.
does it deserve to be artificially allowed to prosper in isolation where one desease outbreak or a storm could end it all. ??

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## Pointer

Or funding dries up. If money is the only thing keeping these creatures alive, then we have already failed

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## EeeBees

What is the figure per kakapo...80,000NZD ???? not sure...

Pointer wrote...
_I know the above statement has probably offended every kiwi who reads this so I may as well go balls deep._

sure does not offend me...logic...curious commodity logic, isn't it...spur wing plover, just about as dangerous to eggs and chicks of other species as the pukeko, stoat, ferret, feral cat...anyone done a population survey on our gorgeous Banded Dotterel lately...godwits/snipe etc illegal to shoot them here yet those very same birds that migrate to and from here are mist netted by the ton in the Northern Hemisphere...still, we cannot beat good old Tasmania...green twats are encouraging people to adopt a fox kit...go figure...

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## Pointer

Imagine a push to outlaw cat ownership in NZ! Completely sensible but it will never happen, there is no money in it to justify the hearts and minds campaign they would have to use to push the idea.

At risk of going against the foundation rules of the forum, I will brush on the political nature of conservation.

Anyone who thinks that buckets of green pellets blanketing the countryside from above is in the name of conservation is kidding themselves. It's a multimillion dollar industry. Lucrative. And regardless of if the greenies think so, so is conservation. Using tax payers money (ie. yours) to sell you a concept 'for the countries good' is Macheavallian in its splendour. They very facts they spout, the ones I have quoted above, also outline that they will never succeed, but will make you feel bad about it! Brilliance. 

Anyway rant over. I'm beginning to sound like Tussock

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## 300CALMAN

> Imagine a push to outlaw cat ownership in NZ!


heyheyhey now I wont take that too personally but you have to admit that Dogs get quite a few Kiwi :Yuush:

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## GSP

Mine have never got a Kiwi.   GSP was looking into a grass clump that was making a funny noise when out walked a Weka and pecked it on the nose.  Weka walked back into the grass clump.  Dog had a look of "what just happened?"

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## Maca49

Let's change the flag and start afresh, rewind the speedo to nought as to speak, start again with a clean slate! And we'd still take the same road! I thinker we are screwed! :O O:

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## Woody

> [QUOTEDOC confirmed this morning an examination of the dead birds on the island sanctuary early this week showed they were killed by shotgun pellets]


you cant get much past those doc boys  :Grin: 
except maybe common sence the truth and political nuetrality :Wink: 


you,ve obviously never heartd of stompers woody :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: [/QUOTE]

The unofficial definition of "Stompers' happens to be that they are first required to be smaller than your boot.  Therefore Takahe don't qualify.  :Innocent:

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## Woody

> Warning graphic image below
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks rooted; BUT there's no holes in it mate!

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## Woody

Climate change-global warming- the coming ice age- whatever;- the major changes which are cyclically altering the environmental characteristics which shaped the evolution of our present NZ ecosystem will have major effects on the less adaptable species and create opportunities for new varieties to adapt. This includes vegetation, stream temperatures, runoff, erosion rates, leaf litter decomposition rates, food chain, food type and availability. The economics and forms of energy necessary to make life comfortable for humans is changing; it has to; because the existing forms we create are fast becoming too expensive and or the resources required are finite, while we continue to breed like maggots. In the meantime and concurrently we have to farm crops, meat, milk, wool, etc more efficiently from the finite arable land and probably diminishing climate resources.

The forests offer far greater potential to us as hunters and fishermen, foresters and engineers, than any Takahe or Blue Wattled Crow and IMHO that Forest and Mountain resource should be recognised and managed for what IT IS AND CAN BE; rather than regarded by extreme greens as a tree huggers prayer room. I do not believe the ecosystem will collapse if Takahe vanish. However the basic infrastructure from microbes through to the ungulates are integral to managing the whole for a far greater potential benefit than the government recognises.

I do not wish to see more viable forests destroyed for farm or urban use, but believe as a Forester that our existing forests should be expanded , diversified and managed to realise their full potential as both a spiritual/ recreational as well as economically recognised massive resource. Inherent in this are the landforms and waterways and an inherent right for all New Zealanders to have access.

I'd better stop or will start a book.

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## gsp follower

what i wonder is who they,re saving them for??
is it a sop to the preservationists or a real effort to save a unique and important species or fighting a losing battle with a ultimatly unsuited anachronism ??
 should the public have a say in if the taxpayer funds it??and are we willing to give up some of our own domestic and wild species to have these endangered ones become widespread and safe again??

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## Woody

The changes of government structure of the public service in the eighties coincided with the then fashionable yuppie attitudes in corporates to "restructure". This process transferred power from practical management to management by bean counters and cloistered academic theorists and their inexperienced newly university brainwashed disciples, highly qualified and officially recognised as PC compliant, and therefore eminently suited to the "new' workforce management structures.

We lost the NZ Forest Service, DSIR, FRI, NZED, MOW, Internal Affairs, Acclimatisation Societies to the current self serving bureaucracies which serve themselves and fluffy  feel-good twerps and Ministers who rely on advice from the academics rather than practical experienced manager.  DoC and Regional Councils are classic examples of duplicitous burdensome blights on the reality , now buried, of the public common-sense and democratic process.

This takahe balls-up is symptomatic of the aftermath.   :15 8 212:

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## timattalon

> The changes of government structure of the public service in the eighties coincided with the then fashionable yuppie attitudes in corporates to "restructure". This process transferred power from practical management to management by bean counters and cloistered academic theorists and their inexperienced newly university brainwashed disciples, highly qualified and officially recognised as PC compliant, and therefore eminently suited to the "new' workforce management structures.
> 
> We lost the NZ Forest Service, DSIR, FRI, NZED, MOW, Internal Affairs, Acclimatisation Societies to the current self serving bureaucracies which serve themselves and fluffy  feel-good twerps and Ministers who rely on advice from the academics rather than practical experienced manager.  DoC and Regional Councils are classic examples of duplicitous burdensome blights on the reality , now buried, of the public common-sense and democratic process.
> 
> This takahe balls-up is symptomatic of the aftermath.


Well put.

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## Woody

Trouble is, we have government Ministers (and shadow Ministers) who in the main lack expertise in the portfolios they are responsible for. This means that moulding civil servants under God-knows-what influences become the advisors to the Minister's as "experts' while the public are relegated to ineffective, expensive emasculating "submissions processes". Result? Erosion of the NZ traditional ethos, and control of NZ by bean counters (BANKS) with little or no regard for hunters and fishermen's values, let alone what we all used to know as Moral Fibre and the "Fair Go".

Find me an honest political party please.

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## gsp follower

> Trouble is, we have government Ministers (and shadow Ministers) who in the main lack expertise in the portfolios they are responsible for


not only expertise but empathy because they know whatever happens they,re well off enough to piss off somewhere else or be guarenteed a cushy job for life by thier own govt mates or party supporters/funders. By the time the dairy fall off bites next year and the sneaky rape of more soe,s assets is realised the true incompetence and duplicitous betrayal of this country, by those who claim to love it as we do,may be to far gone to fix.
they even sdmitted theyve only spent 16,5 billion on the earthquake recovery so far they had 10 billion owing when they got in now we are upto 70 billion in debt with more planned borrowing ???
the list of incompetent/puppet ministers is unbelievable, guy, parata, tolley, lotuinga, smith,woodhouse, bridges, english. and that dont include the members kicked out for fraud or misbehavior.??
[QUOTE*]Woody, we have gone through easy times, and so we just lost interest in democracy.* [/QUOTE]
yep and replaced with foccussing on our own self interest and begrudging groups who got any money, even if it was redresss, from the govt,  to the detriment of our whole country

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## EeeBees

Now there are kea being damaged...oh dear...

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## Dundee

> Now there are kea being damaged...oh dear...


And we know who :Zomg:

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## Woody

I sent a request to several MP's and Ministers a few days ago requesting them to describe to me the course of action required to enforce and prosecute the rules of integrity contained in the Cabinet Manual, and also the codes of conduct for public servants. These rules state that public servants are not allowed to lie or give misleading statements to public and to Ministers.

So far, I have had no answers to my question.

Tussock, we cannot turn our backs. It would be like shutting your eyes and turning your back when confronted by an adder or hyena. Somehow New Zealanders must recognise our problem /s and then deal with it. The tolerance of governments to bullying and attempted takeovers by some factions, of our Forest Parks, exotic forests and other wild areas when the rest of us are then deliberately excluded from access and OUR traditional food gathering and fishing has now reached intolerable levels for most of us. The Takahe incident is very convenient isn't it.

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## Moutere

> The Takahe incident is very convenient isn't it.


Are you suggesting it was orchestrated?

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## Kscott

> I sent a request to several MP's and Ministers a few days ago requesting them to describe to me the course of action required to enforce and prosecute the rules of integrity contained in the Cabinet Manual, and also the codes of conduct for public servants. These rules state that public servants are not allowed to lie or give misleading statements to public and to Ministers.
> 
> So far, I have had no answers to my question.


I know you think this is democracy in action, but it's pointless even with an OIA request.




> Tussock, we cannot turn our backs. It would be like shutting your eyes and turning your back when confronted by an adder or hyena. Somehow New Zealanders must recognise our problem /s and then deal with it. The tolerance of governments to bullying and attempted takeovers by some factions, of our Forest Parks, exotic forests and other wild areas when the rest of us are then deliberately excluded from access and OUR traditional food gathering and fishing has now reached intolerable levels for most of us. The Takahe incident is very convenient isn't it.


Don't confuse dumb luck with a conspiracy  :Wink:  you'd be surprised just how inept people can be.

Traditional food gathering ?

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## 10-Ring

> Deerstalkers hunt big brown animals that don't fly.
> Game bird shooters including Game bird clubs and F&G  hunt flying game birds and make it their aim to be able to identify different types of bird.
> Yet another DOC cock up, where does it stop?!!!


I agree. Even though some NZDA members are bird and clay target shooters wouldn't it have made more sense for DOC to ask a Game bird club for their best and most experienced game bird shooters to participate in the cull instead DA members? I know that in my local NZDA among those that shoot birds most wouldn't have the experience to make the split second decision to tell a cock pheasant from a hen in flight etc. Even so, in this case, in flight means just that, in the air. Cowboys on the loose.

Watch out next roar good people, we have NZDA members out there who seem to be a little trigger happy or are just plain stupid.

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## 10-Ring

I bet they don't taste any better.

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## Woody

> You can turn your back on them. I personally think they are not worth acknowledging, and with a bit of concerted effort by a reasonable sized group, then within the bounds of the law they could simply be left behind.


Many others besides myself want to see the liars and spin doctors who are paid from taxpayers funds sacked. Accountability of these leeches is well overdue.

I am sure they will then get the point Kscott. And yes, I have fed my family on wild foods and my parents before me and before them,  my grand parents and great grandparents. Of course we have traditional food gathering and as far as we are concerned, we have customary rights just as much as any other New Zealander.

 DoC and government better respect this if they want any respect in return.

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## Woody

> Are you suggesting it was orchestrated?


It might as well have been.

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## Moutere

> It might as well have been.


That sounds more like political spin than a straight answer.

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## outdoorlad

Actually Tussock there are plenty of hunting groups out there that are looking after huts, repairing, upgrading, painting, etc, who do think did up the Growler hut? Built the Godley?
Plenty of NZDA branches doing trapping programs.

The Canterbury Jetboat assn look after two huts that DOC we're going to knock down.

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## gimp

Permolat do a lot of voluntary work in this area too

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## Woody

I can see your point Tussock, particularly the last line. I spent two years searching out two old NZFS culler hut sites and the old tracks from them into the heart of the Whirinaki with a view to taking some young people back into those areas to hunt. Now the area is to again be poisoned with 1080 by the TB Free / AHB even though there are no farms within miles.  My plans to help myself and others this coming spring have come to naught, and it is not the first time this has happened to me and others. Local further North are incensed and are now seeking not only a 1080 ban, but also exclusive rights to the north sections.
In another instance, I opened a track into a part of the central Kaimanawa.  Being nearly 70 I applied to DoC for permission to have food air dropped once I had opened up to 4 hours in, so I could carry on without the severe impediment of carrying heavy weight on the old knees. The official decision was NO, because a supply air drop was considered the same as landing an aircraft, which was not permitted in the area I was opening up. I feel I have invested a lot of wasted time, effort and energy, not to mention the pain.
Guess when they will poison this area again? 

I guess we are getting a bit off the subject of Takahe and Pukeko. Sorry. 
Incidentally, we shoot and eat a lot of Pukeko and it is very nice. Pukeko soup is just as nice as chicken soup.

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## Tommy

DOC ask for firearms suspension for takahe killers - National - NZ Herald News

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## stretch

> DOC ask for firearms suspension for takahe killers - National - NZ Herald News


Good luck with that. As far as i can tell, they've committed no offence under the Arms Act. The 7 Basic Rules aren't legislation, and the only one of them that it is a direct offence to break is the drugs/alcohol one. They appear to have committed an offence under the Wildlife Act, and since it was part of an organised NZDA activity, their liability insurance should kick in to cover the hefty fine.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Tommy

> Good luck with that. As far as i can tell, they've committed no offence under the Arms Act. The 7 Basic Rules aren't legislation, and the only one of them that it is a direct offence to break is the drugs/alcohol one. They appear to have committed an offence under the Wildlife Act, and since it was part of an organised NZDA activity, their liability insurance should kick in to cover the hefty fine.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


* and since it was part of an organised NZDA activity* Nope it was a DOC organised activity. The NZDA weren't being paid, neither were the volunteers. DOC can carry it.

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## GravelBen

Did DOC ask for a suspension of firearms licence when one of their own rangers shot a takahe a few years earlier?

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## Munsey

Legally I can't see them loosing there licence , but think they should ! . Reading that article if it was as DOC have stated regarding the briefing etc , you would have to be a complete moron to shoot a bird not on the wing . Would not want too share a roar block with them either

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## stretch

> * and since it was part of an organised NZDA activity* Nope it was a DOC organised activity. The NZDA weren't being paid, neither were the volunteers. DOC can carry it.


My mistake. I assumed DOC had commissioned NZDA to get some members together for the task.

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## gsp follower

[QUOTEIncidentally, we shoot and eat a lot of Pukeko and it is very nice. Pukeko soup is just as nice as chicken soup.][/QUOTE]

sorry woody id take some convincing  :Grin: 
the only way your gonna change doc is to change the people who ultimately tell it what to do.
really chain gangs to do the track cutting and other work ??
sounds like a recipe for more cave creeks and dodgy work.
and this is the outfit who would like to take over f&g not fn likely.
theres over excited nobs in every sport and i hope this is all it was rather than deliberate which i doubt.
maggie barry? really ??as if nick smith wasnt enough of a twat :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:  everything he touches turns to shite.
as i said doc claims poverty and no budget but they seem able to come up with dough to join joint venture buy ups of surrounding land on our biggest south island lake and others.??
biodiversity seems to only count with species they like? it should be the department of preservation not conservation .
game species were gifted to the nation and as the follower of the forest service they should be managing them .
if they cant which is glaringly obvious get the fuck out the way and allow someone else to do it with your input not interference .

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## top gun

It appears to my limited intelligence that the Dept of Corruption set this whole episode up to fail!!!!
 Why would you ask a deer stalker's fraternity to do a job that should really have been offered to Fish & Game and had experienced wing shooters who know the difference between flying birds & road runners?????

 I'll bet that the dept of Constipation's propaganda Dept is killing itself laughing about another blow for the tree hugging brigade and more demerit points for us hunters ( of all varieties).

 Lie in bed with the enemy & you get up with fleas!!!!

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## Woody

And maggots and probably communicable diseases  :Grin:

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## stretch

> DOC ask for firearms suspension for takahe killers - National - NZ Herald News


Good luck with that. As far as i can tell, they've committed no offence under the Arms Act. The 7 Basic Rules aren't legislation, and the only one of them that it is a direct offence to break is the drugs/alcohol one. They appear to have committed an offence under the Wildlife Act, and since it was part of an organised NZDA activity, their liability insurance should kick in to cover the hefty fine.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

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## Tommy

> Good luck with that. As far as i can tell, they've committed no offence under the Arms Act. The 7 Basic Rules aren't legislation, and the only one of them that it is a direct offence to break is the drugs/alcohol one. They appear to have committed an offence under the Wildlife Act, and since it was part of an organised NZDA activity, their liability insurance should kick in to cover the hefty fine.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


* and since it was part of an organised NZDA activity* Nope it was a DOC organised activity. The NZDA weren't being paid, neither were the volunteers. DOC can carry it.

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## GravelBen

Did DOC ask for a suspension of firearms licence when one of their own rangers shot a takahe a few years earlier?

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## Munsey

Legally I can't see them loosing there licence , but think they should ! . Reading that article if it was as DOC have stated regarding the briefing etc , you would have to be a complete moron to shoot a bird not on the wing . Would not want too share a roar block with them either

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## stretch

> * and since it was part of an organised NZDA activity* Nope it was a DOC organised activity. The NZDA weren't being paid, neither were the volunteers. DOC can carry it.


My mistake. I assumed DOC had commissioned NZDA to get some members together for the task.

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## gsp follower

[QUOTEIncidentally, we shoot and eat a lot of Pukeko and it is very nice. Pukeko soup is just as nice as chicken soup.][/QUOTE]

sorry woody id take some convincing  :Grin: 
the only way your gonna change doc is to change the people who ultimately tell it what to do.
really chain gangs to do the track cutting and other work ??
sounds like a recipe for more cave creeks and dodgy work.
and this is the outfit who would like to take over f&g not fn likely.
theres over excited nobs in every sport and i hope this is all it was rather than deliberate which i doubt.
maggie barry? really ??as if nick smith wasnt enough of a twat :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:  everything he touches turns to shite.
as i said doc claims poverty and no budget but they seem able to come up with dough to join joint venture buy ups of surrounding land on our biggest south island lake and others.??
biodiversity seems to only count with species they like? it should be the department of preservation not conservation .
game species were gifted to the nation and as the follower of the forest service they should be managing them .
if they cant which is glaringly obvious get the fuck out the way and allow someone else to do it with your input not interference .

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## top gun

It appears to my limited intelligence that the Dept of Corruption set this whole episode up to fail!!!!
 Why would you ask a deer stalker's fraternity to do a job that should really have been offered to Fish & Game and had experienced wing shooters who know the difference between flying birds & road runners?????

 I'll bet that the dept of Constipation's propaganda Dept is killing itself laughing about another blow for the tree hugging brigade and more demerit points for us hunters ( of all varieties).

 Lie in bed with the enemy & you get up with fleas!!!!

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## Woody

And maggots and probably communicable diseases  :Grin:

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