# Firearms and Shooting > Pistol Shooting >  Aiming without sights

## Savage1

Is there a certain way to learn how to instinctively shoot without using the sights on a pistol? Especially at speed. Not after small groups.

I know about the sight picture/alignment but I'd rather keep my concentration on the target rather than have a blurry target and sharp front post.

I'm guessing it is just going to be 10s of thousands of rounds at paper and plates. I suppose I should join the club, just not interested in competition shooting, I just want to blast away.

I read about the technique in 'Inside Delta Force'  by Eric HANEY, great book.

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## Barefoot

buy an imitation air pistol of the one you use, that will save some money, then practice. I can't imagine its much different than using a shotgun for instinctive shooting. I know I never see the bead on the shottie if I'm doing it right, only the duck.

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## R93

If scores are anything to go by, I don't think I use my sights at all in competiton😆

I think as distance increases instinctive shooting for the average person would be all over the place. I would rather take the point whatever of a second it takes to get some form of alignment to shoot somewhat accurately. 

Everything would have to be perfect regarding grip, position etc to be on all the time.
In saying that I am sure there are a lot of good shooters who can shoot well instinctively and in turn speeding them up. 
I know I shoot a lot of close stuff, especially when on the move without having the gun at eye level. Again my scores usually indicate that😆


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## Kscott

I got taught close target = look at it, point and shoot. Medium range start looking for sight picture.

So stuff that's at under 3m, look at it and point. Try it on a target at home, I was surprised how effective it was (for me).



shows fast shooting by just looking and pointing.

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## 7mmwsm

> Is there a certain way to learn how to instinctively shoot without using the sights on a pistol? Especially at speed. Not after small groups.
> 
> I know about the sight picture/alignment but I'd rather keep my concentration on the target rather than have a blurry target and sharp front post.
> 
> I'm guessing it is just going to be 10s of thousands of rounds at paper and plates. I suppose I should join the club, just not interested in competition shooting, I just want to blast away.
> 
> I read about the technique in 'Inside Delta Force'  by Eric HANEY, great book.


Work related by any chance?

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## Towely

Experience, meaning lots of trigger time will teach you how to point shoot. As you get better you will be able to extend the distance at which you feel comfortable doing it. Everybody is different. I point shoot as i move past close targets, 8ft is my maximum comfortable range right now to hit alphas on the move, i wont point shoot at that range if i also have 2 or 3 targets to be shot from that position at longer distances, so stationary, i stay on my sights and just transition, i may point shoot the last target as i move off the position though. So its stage dependant for me.

When i do it im looking at the target and depending on what my body position is in relation to the target i may also be looking down the side of my gun or over the top of it. Theres realy no hard fast rule, its just what you feel comfortable with.

I liken it to shooting a shotgun at something from the hip, you just know wether you will hit what youre aiming at because you know your limits.

If youre talking about shooting steel targets at 30 meters from the hip and with ease then tell me what the secret is if you ever find it!

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## Spanners

Muscle memory is basically what it boils down to
After a certain time everytime the gun comes up its lined up.
When I was shooting 3-4 times a week in Auckland my muscle memory was awesome and IPSC times super fast. Blury front sight on target, pull the trigger
6 months off after a thumb injury and I sucked!  - still suck - The gun feels foreign in my hand..Its back to sights for me, and at this rate for a while yet as just dont get the time behind the gun.

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## Dan88

that is an awsome book and i think it just comes down to thousands and thousands of rounds. another good book that is quite similar is "cold zero by chris whitcomb" its about the FBI hostage rescue team

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## Maca49

Did the Sundance Kid put out a book on it? I remember him being very good! :Cool:

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## Rushy

> Did the Sundance Kid put out a book on it? I remember him being very good!


So was little Joe Cartwright but Savage1 is talking real world.

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## gundoc

The sights are there for a purpose.  Lots and lots of shooting using a flash sight picture will eventually produce good muscle memory and allow the development of close-range instinct shooting (up to about 8 metres).  Any further requires a flash sight picture.  All of this is dependant upon good shooting stance and trigger squeeze, built up over thousands of practice rounds.  Start slowly and allow your speed to increase naturally - don't force it or you will just be practicing poor techniques and never achieve your goal.  One medium speed shot delivered accurately is miles faster than 3 or 4 lightning fast misses!  Once you start getting good results you must still reinforce those skills with regular practice.  With the proper technique and sight picture, most pistols can be surprisingly accurate out to 50 metres, and good revolvers to well past 100 metres.  Joining a club is the best way to get the correct advice (provided you ask the right people).

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## Maca49

> So was little Joe Cartwright but Savage1 is talking real world.


Sundance was a real person Rushy. We shoot a competition with rifles from the hip at Xmas times, about a two ft disc at 50 metre, most people shoot low into the ground,

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## Rushy

I know that Sundance was real but Robert Redford only played him.......or was that Paul Newman.

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## Maca49

Roberto

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## Shooter

Once you build up your muscle memory by going over and over your draw or rapid alignment then your actions and shot placement will start to become instinctive.  I do not see any benefit of moving backward to a "BB pistol" as you will loose the "recoil management/control" part of the drill.  Remember that any change in stance or grip will make for inconsistent results.

"Speed is fine *Accuracy* is final"

Start slow, and get consistent shot placement before speeding up the drill. Eyes on the target and squeeze, you will be surprised.

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## Simon

Practice, practice and more practice.
Break a typical stage down into its basic components and practice each component separately. Concentrate on areas that you are weak at like weak hand.
Each stage is made up of dozens of components when you think about it.
Use a timer to measure your times (Try different things and see what works for you best) and your speed should be such that you shoot all A zones preferably.
Red dot or open sight I would still be trying to see at least a flash of dot or front sight on the centre of your available A zone even while point shooting.

Point shooting tips:
Practice your draws. I good clean grip on your pistol is vital, more so than the speed of the draw.
Practice drawing and engaging close targets stationary, moving forward, backwards, to the left and to the right.
Try strong and weak hand only with and without a prop weight.
Watch your moving speed while engaging targets as if you try moving too fast you may get trigger freeze and run past a target, normally breaking the 180 deg in doing so.
Finish each shoot before looking at the next target. Your pistol will follow your eyes and it can be common for the second shot to be missing from close targets as your eyes have already moved off the target before the final shot it released.

Good luck

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## hunt_fish

It's all about your vision. You see what you need to see to shoot alphas at different distances. At close range you can get away with three blurry bumps, at 25m you need a crisp front sight (or a steady dot in my case - open all the way!)


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## mikee

get yourself a copy of this

It wont make sense the first or second time you read it but it will...................

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## Ground Control

I know absolutely nothing about Pistol shooting . 
So my experience of instinctive shooting  is limited to watching some very good Shotgun shooters shoot clay targets from the hip , and then having a crack it myself .
I spent an afternoon and a slab of ammo ( 250 rounds ) shooting at some clays on a Skeet field .
By the end of the session I could hit targets on station 1 and 2 maybe 50 - 60% of the time , but the true crossing targets on the middle stations were a real lucky shot scenario ( I did hit some , but not many ) .
I'm almost positive though, if I spent a lot more time and a huge amount of ammo , then it would be possible for me to become proficient at hip shooting .

Ken

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## res

I'll second the call for a BB gun that matches your real one. But it must be gas blow back-the better blowback guns have adjustment that gets the recoil very close to the real thing-it's just not as sharp due to the difference in gas expansion speed. 
I warn you that such BB guns cost as much or more than the real thing-eg I just shipped a glock ond to a mate that's a cop and it cost almost 2k.  But if you use the refillable gas they are cheep to run so you can do ten mags a day of practice for very little ongoing cost-and you can do it in your home. 
Of course you need to practice with the real deal,but ongoing cost becomes an issue. 

I guess I'll find out at Xmas when I do a real 3gun shoot in the Philippines how much my fortnightly airsoft matches really help

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## Banana

SIRT

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## Uplandstalker

We had a stage on Sunday that included a target on a barrel that was about1m or less. Most people were shooting it while on the move as it was on the way to another group of targets. You had to turn you body 90 degrees while moving across the range. 

It was incredible how many shooters during this stage shoot C's and D's on this target with their second shot.

I remember shooting with my boss at a range in Ohio a couple of years ago, and he alway said that on close targets just shoot down your thumbs. It seems much faster than using the sights. I will add my boss cannot shoot a group smaller than two foot at 10 yards with his carry gun (Springfield XD in 40S&W).

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## gundoc

I should have mentioned in my earlier post that many IPSC/competition techniques are not safe to use in real world situations.  Tactical use of cover is vital to survival, and speed is not of much consequence.  Practice your gun handling and shooting skills while taking full advantage of available cover at all times.  A volley of instinctive shots is only useful to move from cover to cover.  Very few IPSC competition shooters would last long if their multi-target marathons were real.  One or two targets with a no-shoot or two in fairly short-range scenarios will prove much more valuable, but practice your basic skills to near perfection first.

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## Savage1

Cheers for the advice. I'm not sure how I'm going to find the time, but I'm going to try.

I think I have a bad habit of holding the grip with my trigger hand too tight.

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## 300_BLK

> Cheers for the advice. I'm not sure how I'm going to find the time, but I'm going to try.
> 
> I think I have a bad habit of holding the grip with my trigger hand too tight.


Get a copy of "Kill or be Killed"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_..._and_Applegate

Rex Applegate, Rex Sykes and William Fairbairn pioneered this for the OSS and it is still currently taught to multiple agencies around the world, not to mention the NZDF.

Fairbairn pioneered the techniques during his career with the Shanghai Municipal Police who were armed with the Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless .32ACP, if you look at the sights on them and the other service revolvers it is no wonder they just pointed  :Psmiley: 

They also developed what are now referred to as kill houses for training of the OSS and Commando regiments during WWII.

Or as I say practice makes better...

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## jim160

I cant shoot for shit using sights.  Shoot much better with the point and shoot way.
Even using the sights and taking my time I still don't shoot the best.
Its strange, maybe its just me.

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## Shooter

> Cheers for the advice. I'm not sure how I'm going to find the time, but I'm going to try.
> 
> I think I have a bad habit of holding the grip with my trigger hand too tight.


I am sure you are well aware of the 60/40 grip, but a this can be reduced even more.

The teaching that I am using at the moment is 60% Non master hand, 30% Master hand and 10% Chest, this allows for a solid grip.  As long as the web of the hand if firm into the tang of the pistol then the griping with the master hand only comes from the lower three fingers.  When checking your grip ensure that there is no daylight showing between your thumbs and that your master thumb is relaxed (a good way to check if your thumb is relaxed is to look at the thumb nail, if it is pink then it is good, if it is white then you are applying undue pressure).

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## R93

Wether you're using rifle, pistol or shotgun, by practicing slow, smooth and sound techniques you will over time build better instinctive results.

I still think and feel like I am pretty slow in an ISPC environment but I have actually sped up in a lot of areas dramatically from when I started. The shot clock doesn't lie.
Time and practice is all that is needed. 


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## SmithSights

Hello,

Fine muscle coordination breaks down under stress.

Train to index the sights to your eye, and the pistol to your body.

The only time I do not use sights is very close in.  I draw (strong side) and turn my gun hand palm up to shoot.  This locks my wrist and helps in recoil management and return to zero.

Regards,

Josh

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## Koshogi

> Is there a certain way to learn how to instinctively shoot without using the sights on a pistol? Especially at speed. Not after small groups.
> 
> I know about the sight picture/alignment but I'd rather keep my concentration on the target rather than have a blurry target and sharp front post.
> 
> I'm guessing it is just going to be 10s of thousands of rounds at paper and plates. I suppose I should join the club, just not interested in competition shooting, I just want to blast away.
> 
> I read about the technique in 'Inside Delta Force'  by Eric HANEY, great book.


You can't learn instincts.

Point shooting has commonly been given, incorrectly, the term "instinctive" shooting. Instincts, relate to a natural ability.

I took the Combat Focus shooting course many years ago, which expanded on the training and experiences that Applegate, Fairbarn and Sykes developed. I believe that training in a system using a point shooting method, does have a sound place in the training agenda for those employing small arms.

I would recommend the book "Bulleyes don't Shoot Back" by Michael Janich (a very knowledgeable, and nice bloke) and Col Rex Applegate.
Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back: The Complete Textbook of Point Shooting for Close Quarters Combat: Rex Applegate, Michael Janich: 9780873649575: Amazon.com: Books

Rob Pincus's book "Combat Focus Shooting" is not as good, but does offer some worthwhile input in the concept.
Combat Focus Shooting: Evolution 2010: Rob Pincus, Betty Shonts: 9780979150876: Amazon.com: Books

An older video on the Combat Focus Shooting Course is available on YouTube ( I haven't watched it, so can't comment on it's worth).

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## Shooter

> You can't learn instincts.
> 
> Point shooting has commonly been given, incorrectly, the term "instinctive" shooting. Instincts, relate to a natural ability.
> 
> I took the Combat Focus shooting course many years ago, which expanded on the training and experiences that Applegate, Fairbarn and Sykes developed. I believe that training in a system using a point shooting method, does have a sound place in the training agenda for those employing small arms.
> 
> I would recommend the book "Bulleyes don't Shoot Back" by Michael Janich (a very knowledgeable, and nice bloke) and Col Rex Applegate.
> Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back: The Complete Textbook of Point Shooting for Close Quarters Combat: Rex Applegate, Michael Janich: 9780873649575: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> ...


You are thinking of the term "Instinctive" or as you put it "Instincts" to literally.

*Instinct combat shooting:* The act of operating a weapon by focusing on the target and instinctively coordinating the hand and mind to cause the weapon to discharge at a time and point that ensures interception of the target with the projectile.

This is a skill that most definitely can be learned.  If it is the term (everyone is using) that you are worried about then that is just semantics...

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## stumpy

I turn my handguns on the side and never look down the sights ....that's why I suck ....

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## P38

> I turn my handguns on the side and never look down the sights ....that's why I suck ....


  @stumpy

If your aiming your Shoota Gansta Styles you'll never hit anything unless you also say these magic words

 "Yo Mo Fo!!!, Give it Up or I'll put a Cap in your Ass"  :Cool: 

It also helps if you have your hat on backwards and your oversize pants down around your knees too.   :Have A Nice Day: 

Cheers
Pete

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## Koshogi

> Instinct combat shooting: The act of operating a weapon by focusing on the target and instinctively coordinating the hand and mind to cause the weapon to discharge at a time and point that ensures interception of the target with the projectile.


While I can understand Chuck Klein's "interpretation" of the term 'instinctive shooting' to validate his opinion. In reality, he is merely attempting to change the definition of a word to suit his liking. The use of ANY weapon or tool by a human is not and can not be classed as instinctive. 




> If it is the term (everyone is using) that you are worried about then that is just semantics...


Yes, the meaning of a word is unimportant in a conversation.....

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## Shooter

Once again you are reading to deep in to the use of words. "Instinctive" can be used in many forms... "An action done or happening without logical thought" much like a sportsman throws or kicks a ball...

If you practice a drill over and over then yes your actions can become instinctive in that your actions will move quicker than your logical/cognitive ability.  Be careful buying in to some "FAD" course that you have recently done and then take for gospel.  Instinctive shooting builds the basis of all combat shooting techniques regardless of what professional force your were trained with... Yes that's right even your army (well past army) uses and employs "instinctive shooting".

Point and shoot is just an adaptation of the underlying fundamentals of "instinctive shooting".

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## Kscott

This isn't combat or defensive - it's running and IPSC. Look at the target close to you, point at it and shoot.

/end thread.

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## Shooter

What isn't combat? The technique or the situation that requires you to employ it.

Savage1 started this thread looking for advice on acquiring the skills to shoot without aiming.  This relates to instinctive shooting which falls very well in to combat shooting techniques regardless of your perceived relevance.  Look at the many books that have been suggested to read and the one he himself has read, most of which are combat centered.  Why? Because they are all realistic and experience driven techniques.  Much of what IPSC is all about was founded via combat training and adapted to suit mainstream competition minded shooters..

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## Koshogi

> If you practice a drill over and over then yes your actions can become instinctive in that your actions will move quicker than your logical/cognitive ability.


No, it will become a learned behavior. You will move quicker due to muscle memory and reducing the reaction time based upon repeated external stimuli. 




> Be careful buying in to some "FAD" course that you have recently done and then take for gospel.


Actually, I took the course over ten years ago. I have taken several pistol courses over the years, the Combat Focus Shooting course was the only one that taught point shooting. So I wouldn't quite say I'm taking a 'FAD" course as "gospel". 

You can certainly use your instincts to aid your shooting, but you can't instinctively shoot.

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## Koshogi

> I think I have a bad habit of holding the grip with my trigger hand too tight.


From "Kill or Be Killed" by Major(Col) Rex Applegate, Published July 1943

_"The grip of the hand on the weapon is tight-almost convulsive"

"The grip on the pistol or revolver is extremely tight. This is also a combat condition, because in the midst of a battle excitement, a man instinctively grips his weapon in this manner and certainly does not take time to hold his breath, line up the sights, and squeeze the trigger."_

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## Shooter

> No, it will become a learned behavior. You will move quicker due to muscle memory and reducing the reaction time based upon repeated external stimuli. 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I took the course over ten years ago. I have taken several pistol courses over the years, the Combat Focus Shooting course was the only one that taught point shooting. So I wouldn't quite say I'm taking a 'FAD" course as "gospel". 
> 
> You can certainly use your instincts to aid your shooting, but you can't instinctively shoot.


Well we will have to agree to disagree, which is a shame given your "elaborate" background.

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## mayfly

> From "Kill or Be Killed" by Major(Col) Rex Applegate, Published July 1943
> 
> _"The grip of the hand on the weapon is tight-almost convulsive"
> 
> "The grip on the pistol or revolver is extremely tight. This is also a combat condition, because in the midst of a battle excitement, a man instinctively grips his weapon in this manner and certainly does not take time to hold his breath, line up the sights, and squeeze the trigger."_


Koshogi,what discipline do you shot and what grade if I may ask?

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## mayfly

> get yourself a copy of this
> Attachment 42365
> It wont make sense the first or second time you read it but it will...................


That's  the one,and a great guy to top it of!

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## Koshogi

> Koshogi,what discipline do you shot and what grade if I may ask?


I don't compete in competitions currently. Planning on getting involved in 2016.

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