# Hunting > Hunting >  223 on deer

## NewbieZAR

hey guys

So i got me a sauer 100 in 223, its got a 10 twist barrel 


I plan on using it on fallow and the odd red. 

I plan on testing 53 vmax, and 60gr vmax in it, and the  use that for goats and stuff, while using the equivalent softpoint on deer.

But now i read some guys use the vmax on deer too, mainly at little bit longer distances.

Who shoots deer with the 223 and vmax bullets? What distances do you get them out to? 

Be keen to hear how they go for you.

Shot placement and all that is important obviously, i have no trouble putting a bullet where i want it, and i do let deer walk when i cant.

Cheers

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## 223nut

Used to use a 223 on stewart island thinking that small deer means you can get away with a smaller calibre. Worked fine if you stick to head and neck shots, lost a couple with chest shots and changed to a 308... crosshairs on front half, pull the trigger! (But quite but you get the idea) this is of course all short distances under 100m usually.

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## ebf

I'm curious why you want to restrict yourself to varmint projectiles for shooting deer ?

Personally I would rather go for a more traditional projectile, something like a Sierra Gameking, or Barnes TSX. There is a 55gr SP Gameking, I use the 65gr version in a 8.5 twist.

There is a ton of info on both those (in 223) on here.

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## veitnamcam

I've used the 60gr vmax a bit on fallow and yearlings, neck shots inside 200y.
Very messy on body shots even over 200y.

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk

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## Chur Bay

I'd be inclined to get some cheap Hornady 55 gr soft points and use them on everything.

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## 25 /08 IMP

Hornady 55 grn SP work very well.

Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk

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## piwakawaka

Used 53 vmax on a short range neck shot on a red yearling and it worked well but I would worry about them exploding on shoulders and not penetrating enough for other shots or on bigger deer. No other experience with them though. Federal 62grain yellow box and 55grain blue box work wonders have shot several deer with them reds and fallow

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## Marty Henry

Not an ethical choice in my opinion a bullet designed to fragment rapidly will a the fantail said blow a wide shallow crater. I've used the 62 grain belmont extensively on fallow to 200 yards but prefer the Sierra hpbt 55 grain it's an astonishingly good bullet and has accounted for quite a few red deer.

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## 7mmwsm

Personally I think you should just use a gun which is more suited to shooting deer.

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## Micky Duck

either the hornady 55grn or best of all barnes 50 grn ttsx....those wee mono jobbies are just the ticket....chest shots and down they go.

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## Marty Henry

I agree with 7mmwsm but if you are going to do it at least do it as well as you can.

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## Finnwolf

> Not an ethical choice in my opinion a bullet designed to fragment rapidly will a the fantail said blow a wide shallow crater. I've used the 62 grain belmont extensively on fallow to 200 yards but prefer the Sierra hpbt 55 grain it's an astonishingly good bullet and has accounted for quite a few red deer.


223 is an ok round for clear shots accurately placed but not so good for punching through scrub or poorly placed shots.

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## Yesmate

> Personally I think you should just use a gun which is more suited to shooting deer.


This is realistic, its the boy-man saying.A boy can't always do a mans job but a man can always do a boys job.

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## Howa1500

65gr sierras

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## doinit

> Shot placement and all that is important obviously, i have no trouble putting a bullet where i want it, and i do let deer walk when i cant.
> 
> Cheers


Spoken like a true pro  :Thumbsup:

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## XR500

Sierra gamekings in any of their flavours. Made for game. As others have pointed out those vmaxes are made for varmints. Doesn't mean you cant kill deer with them, just that you will kill more reliably and more humanely with a bullet designed for bigger game.

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## Moa Hunter

I sold my 223 but if I had kept it I would use the Norma factory Oryx loads. I found the American bullets too soft

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## Flyblown

This is one of those subjects that gets people a bit uppity. 

You have to look at the different classes of shooting to get your head around what best practice is with a .224 cal bullet. Obviously the term best practice invites all sorts of criticism depending on your own definition of best is. 

Youll always hear that it is unethical to shoot deer with a .223 when obviously there are numerous better choices. But the simple fact is there are lots of professionals who shoot deer with a .223. Ground-based shooters and helicopter shooters, typically with a 62 or 64 grain bullet. I cant speak for all of them but the ground-based professionals Ive come across all head shoot deer. I too shoot dozens of deer every year with my .223 1:12 with the 50gr Z-Max. Head shots only. The fellas I hang with all shoot .223, all head shoot, the only exception is the Roar when the 308 or 270 comes out for some close up big boy action. These guys are either shepherds or landowners and all carry a rifle on the bike and most days they will shoot a deer or a goat or several. See them in action and they are machines.

This is just the way its done and theres no point arguing it, especially if youre only an occasional recreational shooter. I get the concern but its just the way it is.

Something to consider is the culling of kangaroos in Australia. The industry standard is the .223 Remington and by law you must head shoot the animal. Chest shots are only permitted for injured animals on the run. A couple of fellas have tried to convince me that a deer doesnt behave the same way as a kangaroo but if you put some hours in on the hill you will know that a deer isnt a rooting pig, for example, and theres plenty of time to shoot it in the head. Just have to be patient and wait for the right moment.

so thats what I would do @NewbieZAR. Youll be a good enough shot for that no problem. If its not for you then use another cartridge with a wider, heavier bullet.

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## Micky Duck

great points flyblown...great indeed
varmit type projectiles come into their own for head/neck...the theory being a close miss will fragment enough to be fatal or immobilise allowing 2nd shot....stun/cut throat
the wee barnes 50 grn at under 200 yards preform very well and internal damage is similar to slow cup n core of larger cartridge...but damage is done on opposite sides eg lots on near and little on exit.
they great for chest shooting...Im not patient or exceptional shot so they give me a little leeway and confidence....
horses for courses

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## NewbieZAR

cheers for the feedback guys.

I geuss some clarity is needed, my main hunting rifle is a 270 out of which i shoot 150gr bergers at 2920fps

The 223 will be for when im blasting away at goats etc on the pine block, and a red or fallow steps out. And for when im hunting fallow on doc land as the 270 is a bit much for them.

I have shot animals out to 810 yards with it and can regularly hit a 200mm plate at that range with my 270.

More just thinking how they vmaxes would go if a red was to step out at say 300 - 400yards.

Cheers guys, will read up some more

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## Micky Duck

now me...3-400yards and 223 is a no no .....sure some folks will say they head shoot at that range...to which I will reply how many rabbits do you miss at that range????
I would seriously look at the hornady 55grn in 50 bulk pack if you dont reload...or grab a pack to try even if you do....they would be great goat medicine and will handle  bigger stuff too...but I wouldnt stretch the wee rifles barrel....they work great out to 200..after that use the mighty poohseventy,stalk closer or come back another day.

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## Seventenths

Go the "Mighty Mouse" as i love the .223!

I won't shoot deer over 250 with the .223 but most of my deer have all been bush hunting but my son who was 12 yrs at the time dropped a nice Fallow stag at 230 mtrs one day to a clean heart shot with 55 gr Sierras

I ran 55 gr V-max for a while with great results on Sika just shooting them in the chest where the chest cavity was mush and then switched to 55 gr Sierras but at least with them they mushroomed and most of the time i'd find them on the other side under the skin (chest shots)

Both types of projectiles killed well and it was a toss up of whether i stick with the vmax or Sierras and i think from memory i just went with the Sierras because i like a good lead tip.

Alot of people like to mention with .222/.223 to head/neck shoot deer where as with the sika and fallow i just shot them in the chest and down they'd go every single time but with reds and lets face it their a bigger bodied animal so with them you need to place the shot in the neck though I have heard of guys using barnes who just shoot the boiler room.

For what your wanting to do which is shooting goats/fallow and the ocassional red then get 55 / 63 / 65 gr Sierras or 55 gr Hornady's which are cheap but have also been very effective on Goats / Fallow for me.

Hot barrels  :Thumbsup:

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## TLB

Basics have been covered on this thread already but just thought I would reiterate the fact that a .223 for red deer is not really a 300 to 400 yard cartridge. Virtually no energy at that range and the margin of error for a .223 is very little as it is. Throw in a slight breeze or small movement on the animals part as you pull the trigger and you can say goodbye to it. 
I use a .223 a lot and have started steering clear of the pills that are lighter than 55gr, other than Barnes which punches well above it's weight.
As others have mentioned above, the basic Hornady and Sierra soft points are cheap and do the job. 
Shot placement is key.

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## Dan.22-250

I've used both a .22-250 and a .223 a fair amount on fallow and a little on reds. Shot two fallow with 50gr z/v max first one was a neck shot and she fell over straight away. Second one didn't go as well, was a yearling spiker and I aimed at the neck again. He appeared to stumble at the shot however ran of with the rest of the mob. Searching revealed no sign of a hit or deer. About 6 weeks later I shot a yearling spiker in the same place, this time with a 55gr soft point in the chest. When I boned him out there was some bruising/ wounding on its neck, can't be sure it's the same animal but was enough to make me avoid the varmint projectiles for deer. 
.223 will work fine just have to realise its limits better than I did that day.

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## stagstalker

Considering people shoot elk, beer, deer etc with bows I reckon a 223 with the right pill in the right range is just fine for a deer..

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## Micky Duck

at one point NZFS issues deer cullers with .22lr  browning t bolt I believe.....for both goats and deer... its all about shot placement and personal mindset/having confidence and dicipline to know when to shoot and more importantly when not to.

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## Carpe Diem

Quite happy to use a 55gnSP in the right circumstances when the shot is on. 
This one dropped like a stone @247y but again I was really confident of the shot (stopped, head down, grazing, no wind, good set up I trusted and not a rushed shot). I think that's a really good point @NewbieZAR raises that we sometimes miss because we are prepared to rush a shot, rather than respect the animal and let it walk.


I now have the luxury with a faster twist 1:8 .223 of using a 75 grain bonded Speer Gold dot - which I'm looking forward to using a little more with these and this cal across a wider range of animals. BTW the place was mainly Fallow, but when life gives you a upgrade who am i to say no...

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## Micky Duck

almost looks like on old bulldozed track too...how COULD a fella pass up that chance??? your barrel looks like it long enough to be half way there anyway...you would be at least 6" closer than alot of folks...good on you for not cutting it super silly short.

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## Sarvo

I have shot more Deer with a 223 than all other Cals put together
All I might add - were shot with full jacket - cheap Russian and I think Serbian Ammo
Hand on heart - I can only think of 4 or 5 that got away after been hit
That was actually more to do with the shitty Wichita base mount that was on my 1st Mini14 - it never held zero well and I jaw shot a few (poor beggars - no a nice way to die:-(
However – I would never go back to that Cal
It was purely to do with cheap ammo – semi auto 20 shot mags etc 
If Deer shot chest – would run like not hit at all – but dead within 40m
Norinco was common use back then too - think that's China made ??

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## 7mmwsm

> Considering people shoot elk, beer, deer etc with bows I reckon a 223 with the right pill in the right range is just fine for a deer..


Completely different method of killing though. 
With a bullet you are transferring energy. A broad head is all about chopping a hole.

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## Carpe Diem

> almost looks like on old bulldozed track too...how COULD a fella pass up that chance??? your barrel looks like it long enough to be half way there anyway...you would be at least 6" closer than alot of folks...good on you for not cutting it super silly short.


Hahaha.. Thanks  @mickyduck lets just say it wasn't too hard getting the sxs in there, and yes looks long in the photo but is factory length - plus a forward Waitaki suppressor I was lucky enough to win at the last Toby Shoot down in Kurow. Actually it balances very well with the paper weight added. I also have a .308 with 16.5" pipe for the bush, but that is in need of a re-barrel so its having time out in my safe for now while this get a few more walks and is becoming my go to...

CD.

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## doinit

> at one point NZFS issues deer cullers with .22lr  browning t bolt I believe.....for both goats and deer... its all about shot placement and personal mindset/having confidence and dicipline to know when to shoot and more importantly when not to.


At what point in time was that Micky Duck? .222,308 and .270 were the main flavours and on the odd occasion certain guys were supplied .243. that list was a definite on the Thar blocks. Although the majority of hunters on the Thar including myself carried .222's. I'm talking mid 60's-late 70's.

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## Micky Duck

> At what point in time was that Micky Duck? .222,308 and .270 were the main flavours and on the odd occasion certain guys were supplied .243. that list was a definite on the Thar blocks. Although the majority of hunters on the Thar including myself carried .222's. I'm talking mid 60's-late 70's.


not 100% sure of dates...I have read about it a couple of times in books and or magazine articles....one magazine article was in two bits...first bit was written as culler and 2nd was some 30ish years later back walking same paths. thats where the Tbolt bit came from..pretty sure writer said they only given HV ammo so it was still noisy... not as noisy as the trebly but couldve been much better with subsonic.
was deemed a failure so wasnt continued...pretty sure it wouldve been central north island and goat rich blocks...was definately bush and river flats..... Phil H used .22 magnum on goats at one stage.....

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## Finnwolf

Must have been a North Island thing as I knew a few NZFS guys way back  and only ever heard of 303, 222 and 270 being used by them.
Oh and the odd 308.

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## Timmay

> Must have been a North Island thing as I knew a few NZFS guys way back  and only ever heard of 303, 222 and 270 being used by them.
> Oh and the odd 308.


There is a spot I hunt occasionally in the Kaimaniwas, there is a well established camp with a large native nearby, the V's in the tree are full of .222 and .270 empties.

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## Hiawatha

Have shot plenty reds with a 223. Mostly just chest shoot. Some drop on spot but quite a few dash n die up to 70m away. I use Hornady factory 55 gn SP. They work fine. 3000fps out of a 16 inch suppressed barrel. Federal 55gn blue packet is 200 fps slower but kills just as well if not a touch better. Dont use varmint bullets. I love using a 223. So does my dog's ears. I use a 308 more though. Cheers

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## doinit

> not 100% sure of dates...I have read about it a couple of times in books and or magazine articles....one magazine article was in two bits...first bit was written as culler and 2nd was some 30ish years later back walking same paths. thats where the Tbolt bit came from..pretty sure writer said they only given HV ammo so it was still noisy... not as noisy as the trebly but couldve been much better with subsonic.
> was deemed a failure so wasnt continued...pretty sure it wouldve been central north island and goat rich blocks...was definately bush and river flats..... Phil H used .22 magnum on goats at one stage.....


Cheers there MD, gotta be from the North Bush hobbits eh..

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## caberslash

> Completely different method of killing though. 
> With a bullet you are transferring energy. A broad head is all about chopping a hole.


Sorta.

On the right compound bow/crossbow setup, you are transferring a huge amount of energy at shorter ranges, the right arrow with go straight through ballistic glass. 

Trajectory (and hence range) is the weak point of arrows, not killing power.

That being said I'll take a .223/.222 anyday!

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## Tahr

.223 tonight. 130 yds. 69grn Targex. Bullet recovered from off side, just under back steak. Bang-flop.

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## 7mmwsm

> Sorta.
> 
> On the right compound bow/crossbow setup, you are transferring a huge amount of energy at shorter ranges, the right arrow with go straight through ballistic glass. 
> 
> Trajectory (and hence range) is the weak point of arrows, not killing power.
> 
> That being said I'll take a .223/.222 anyday!


Based on your argument, a full metal jacket would be a better killer than an expanding projectile because it penetrates well but doesn't leave its energy in the animal.
There is basically no shocking power with a broadhead, but a large wound channel.

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## caberslash

> Based on your argument, a full metal jacket would be a better killer than an expanding projectile because it penetrates well but doesn't leave its energy in the animal.
> There is basically *no shocking power* with a broadhead, but a large wound channel.


Please explain 'shocking power'.

Read about this in lots of adverts for bullets but the only time I've seen (or felt) true 'shocking power' was off a fence wired up to the mains (they have a habit of doing that up here!).

If you mean soft tissue damage, plenty of that on a bow kill with the right equipment and shot placement, not just a narrow wound channel the size of the broadhead...

Expanding broadhead design has come a really long way, and arrows don't fly or travel perfectly straight (any arrow will flex, both in flight and when force is applied to either end).

So, with the arrow (usually) going straight through the animal (say a deer) at under 100m, you have a pretty serious wound channel from a 'behind the shoulder and through the chest cavity' quartering shot, a decent exit wound and a fair amount of bleeding. Add to this the lack of (or very small) report of the arrow being released and an animal which isn't spooked, it will be going down in a pretty rapid fashion.

Sure, you'll never get the massive nerve damage required for a bang-flop, but in terms of death by blood loss and soft (lung) tissue damage a modern, high performance bow and arrow will do just fine.

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## southernman

There's been Likely millions off deer, shot in New Zealand with a .222, was likely the second most common choice for cullers, The old man was NZFS OC, in Taupo, and  2IC down the coast, I remember a stack white, cloth sugar bags, of 2000-3000 brass (.222) , in the corner of the shed, And talk of rifles from old NZFS visitors, and all had a fondness for the humble .222 vixen, we had two on the farm, I've got the newer one, 
 I bet there are sum old cullers on here, with Tens of thousands of deer/goats shot with the .222, ( trusty .222 and Taraura hunter, Thar) 
 I've shot a few hundred deer with mine, never lost an deer, get in close, pick your shot, shoot twice if need, and be prepared to pass up game, from time to time, a quality soft point, (stay away form American made varmint bullets,) I like Norma soft points,  
 the .223 is just a touch more powerful, and with more options, esp with a fast twist

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## 300_BLK

65gr Sierra game king are very effective so are the cheap Hornady 55gr SP.

Dont know what all the hoopla is about small calibres. I reckon the 222 with 50gr sp kill deer far better than the 223.

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## Marty Henry

> Please explain 'shocking power'.
> 
> Read about this in lots of adverts for bullets but the only time I've seen (or felt) true 'shocking power' was off a fence wired up to the mains (they have a habit of doing that up here!).
> 
> If you mean soft tissue damage, plenty of that on a bow kill with the right equipment and shot placement, not just a narrow wound channel the size of the broadhead...
> 
> Expanding broadhead design has come a really long way, and arrows don't fly or travel perfectly straight (any arrow will flex, both in flight and when force is applied to either end).
> 
> So, with the arrow (usually) going straight through the animal (say a deer) at under 100m, you have a pretty serious wound channel from a 'behind the shoulder and through the chest cavity' quartering shot, a decent exit wound and a fair amount of bleeding. Add to this the lack of (or very small) report of the arrow being released and an animal which isn't spooked, it will be going down in a pretty rapid fashion.
> ...


Same thing can be said for hunting with a black powder rifle chucking a large lump of lead quite slowly, the big leaky hole theory pretty much works every time.

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## Flyblown

> Please explain 'shocking power'.


Well you've got winter coming and those short dark wet cold days, so good chance to read up on the different killing mechanisms.

Huge amount written on the various terms thrown around on forums - hydrostatic shock, cavitation, etc etc. It's well worth doing as its very informative and helps weed out forum bullshit and marketing hype.

There are some cool videos on how different bullets kill - fragmenting, controlled expansion, etc. Broad head arrows are different again. I think there's a lot of ignorance out there about broadhead arrows.

The biggest problem with the topic is that for every statement of "fact", someone will come along and try and disprove it with a tale and a couple of photos. Neither of the wound experts I'm thinking of will readily accept the use of 6mm on red deer sized game, so years of NZFS cullers were obviously all doing something wrong with their puny and unethical 5.56mm!

At the end of the day, there is no substitute for a knowledge of anatomy, and shot placement. Especially the role of the autonomic part of the central nervous system - what it does, where it is, and what happens when you put a bullet through the main autonomic nerves in the thoracic cavity. Put a .223 bullet of the correct construction and velocity in amongst the autonomic CNS, the animal is dead in short order. End of story. 

Where this falls down in the use of the lighter varmint bullets, which is why this thread has been good to review the importance of (a) twist, (b) weight, (c) construction, (d) terminal velocity.

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## 7mmwsm

Shocking power, hydraulic shock, foot pounds of energy. 
Shoot a plastic bag full of water with an expanding projectile. Then shoot another with a broad head. Reaction will be completely different. So completely different method of killing. One causes trauma, one cuts a hole for the purpose of letting the juice out.

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## grandpamac

> At what point in time was that Micky Duck? .222,308 and .270 were the main flavours and on the odd occasion certain guys were supplied .243. that list was a definite on the Thar blocks. Although the majority of hunters on the Thar including myself carried .222's. I'm talking mid 60's-late 70's.


Greetings All,
At one point NZFS adopted .270 Win as their standard animal control cartridge, mid 1970's I think. CAC made head stamped ammo for them. This was all written up in the hunting mags at the time. I found two discarded NZFS head stamped cases on the range, both expanded by egregious over loads. Whether these were factory or hand loads I don't know. Either is possible knowing CAC's later problems.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## Finnwolf

Hmmm.. @grandpamac.’’CAC problems’?
When did they occur and what were they?

I used to religiously use CAC 180 hollow-points in my Finnwolf with no issues ever.

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## grandpamac

Greetings Finnwolf,
I was referring to the High Flyer shotgun cartridges that were blamed for the destruction of a number of shotguns. I believe that CAC paid out to replace a number of these. Like you I used CAC cartridges, and later cases, without complaint. Still do for cases. I think their quality tapered of a bit towards the end.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## woods223

> At what point in time was that Micky Duck? .222,308 and .270 were the main flavours and on the odd occasion certain guys were supplied .243. that list was a definite on the Thar blocks. Although the majority of hunters on the Thar including myself carried .222's. I'm talking mid 60's-late 70's.


.222 was probably the main flavour top of south island late 70's to '87? when NZFS was abolished. 223 mainly with  DOC shooters now apart from some contractors who were using 22 magnums and heading dogs.

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## doinit

> Greetings All,
> At one point NZFS adopted .270 Win as their standard animal control cartridge, mid 1970's I think. CAC made head stamped ammo for them. This was all written up in the hunting mags at the time. I found two discarded NZFS head stamped cases on the range, both expanded by egregious over loads. Whether these were factory or hand loads I don't know. Either is possible knowing CAC's later problems.
> Regards Grandpamac.


Gidday there Grandpamac,  Yeah the .270 was supplied along with .308 at that time but .222 was used rather than the bigger calibers although  one of my bosses grabbed a .270 that was on offer at the time and he was not culling,rather an office type.
The Forest Service offered the Thar hunters in my area brand new CF2,s in .270. Those things were far too heavy and bloody noisey plus   the weight of ammo, hence the .222's being far more popular. When I worked in the Marlborough district They offered new Sako vixens in .222. Cullers moved around a lot from one district to another and at the end of the day the .222 was still very popular regardless of animal size.
cheers

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## doinit

My apologies NewbieZAR for getting side tracked  :Have A Nice Day:  on certain subjects I find my bleating  can sort of keep on keeping on eh.

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## gimp

47gr of nicely mushroomed 80gr ELDM recovered from under the offside skin of a red after penetrating shoulder, spine, lungs and opposite ribs at 250  V0 2800fps.

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## Micky Duck

> My apologies NewbieZAR for getting side tracked  on certain subjects I find my bleating  can sort of keep on keeping on eh.


you bleat away old chap...youve done the hard yards and shot more animals than most of us will ever get sights on....the years of REAL experience can not be discounted....you KNOW and us younger folk just think we know.
you will have forgotton more than a lot of us will ever learn.

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## Tahr

.223 neck shot couple of nights ago (graphic).

85 yards. 77 grn Sierra @ 2900 fps.

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## 7mmwsm

> .223 neck shot couple of nights ago (graphic).
> 
> 85 yards. 77 grn Sierra @ 2900 fps.
> 
> Attachment 151894
> 
> Attachment 151895


Three inches toward the shoulder on the same level and that deer would likely have got up again. Would have been a perfect crease shot.

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## deer243

> This is one of those subjects that gets people a bit uppity. 
> 
> You have to look at the different classes of shooting to get your head around what best practice is with a .224 cal bullet. Obviously the term best practice invites all sorts of criticism depending on your own definition of best is. 
> 
> Youll always hear that it is unethical to shoot deer with a .223 when obviously there are numerous better choices. But the simple fact is there are lots of professionals who shoot deer with a .223. Ground-based shooters and helicopter shooters, typically with a 62 or 64 grain bullet. I cant speak for all of them but the ground-based professionals Ive come across all head shoot deer. I too shoot dozens of deer every year with my .223 1:12 with the 50gr Z-Max. Head shots only. The fellas I hang with all shoot .223, all head shoot, the only exception is the Roar when the 308 or 270 comes out for some close up big boy action. These guys are either shepherds or landowners and all carry a rifle on the bike and most days they will shoot a deer or a goat or several. See them in action and they are machines.
> 
> This is just the way its done and theres no point arguing it, especially if youre only an occasional recreational shooter. I get the concern but its just the way it is.
> 
> Something to consider is the culling of kangaroos in Australia. The industry standard is the .223 Remington and by law you must head shoot the animal. Chest shots are only permitted for injured animals on the run. A couple of fellas have tried to convince me that a deer doesnt behave the same way as a kangaroo but if you put some hours in on the hill you will know that a deer isnt a rooting pig, for example, and theres plenty of time to shoot it in the head. Just have to be patient and wait for the right moment.
> ...


Mmmm... Questiond,  if these guys you talking about using a 223 and head shooting everything  with the exception of the roar why cant they head shoot stags in the roar with the 223??
Clearly the range is even closer so if they have no problem head shooting deer grnerally then surely they could do it in the roar up close....just saying

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## Mooseman

> Hmmm.. @grandpamac.’’CAC problems’?
> When did they occur and what were they?
> 
> I used to religiously use CAC 180 hollow-points in my Finnwolf with no issues ever.


I can't comment on the high powered CAC ammo but when I started on the Pest Destruction Board in the late 70's the old Rabbit Board 12 g shotgun ammo was alright.
The 22 ammo both sub and super was shocking. Subs would quite often go off like a super which was bad news especially when we were on der farms and needed to be as quite as possible so as not to Spook the animals. Super sonic ammo sometimes went off like a 22 mag or other times like a sub. One night me mate had one that barely made a noise and on inspection found the bullet stuck in the barrel, luckly he checked before firing the next round. Back then we used to get the CAC in a plain white box for subs and supers were marked SR5, interesting times. Sorry got a bit side tracked From 223 on deer thread.

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## R93

> Mmmm... Questiond,  if these guys you talking about using a 223 and head shooting everything  with the exception of the roar why cant they head shoot stags in the roar with the 223??
> Clearly the range is even closer so if they have no problem head shooting deer grnerally then surely they could do it in the roar up close....just saying


Can't speak for anyone else but personally have used a 223 for years during spring summer months and off a machine. Always go a bigger cal in the rut because head or neck shooting with a 223 doesn't help if you want to keep the capes.
Still shot a fair few stags in the rut, meat hunting non trophy areas with 223 no problem at all. Use an even smaller cal now for filling the freezer but never in a rush to do that and rarely shoot much over 50 yrds.


Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

----------


## Micky Duck

also...if the stag of a lifetime is departing and the only shot on offer is fair up his arse...well the 308 or mighty poohseventy will anchor him for finishing but .223 as good as it is will struggle.
larger margin for error with a rushed shot.....the .224 centrefires ARENT for rushed shots....

----------


## 7.62

I used a 1/8 twist 223 on deer pretty regularly for 9 years, generally with controlled expansion monolithics. I had a couple of heavier calibers at the time but I normally chose the 223, as I’m a meat hunter more than anything. I purchased it as a bit of an all rounder for varminting and meat hunting (fallow and smaller reds at shorter ranges). It filled that role pretty well but I don’t think the 223 is a great choice as a stand alone deer rifle. If a nice fat red spiker wanders out onto a clearing 250yd away, right on dusk and there’s no opportunity to get closer, I want a caliber that will reliably flatten that animal with a shoulder shot. So that means a 6mm minimum. Do yourself a favour and get a 243 instead

----------


## Timmay

> If a nice fat red spiker wanders out onto a clearing 250yd away, right on dusk and theres no opportunity to get closer, I want a caliber that will reliably flatten that animal with a shoulder shot. So that means a 6mm minimum. Do yourself a favour and get a 243 instead


I agree, slightly, If I only could have one rifle it would be a 6.5mm Fact is you can run 100gr pills easy as which will do everything a .243 will do but you can run 147s to shoot shit wayyyy out there. Plus how many people do you know that want to run heavy .243 rounds????

IMO the 6.5 (.260) is what the .243 should have been.

----------


## Tahr

With these neck shots and the .223 the margin for error can be pretty slim.
This was the other night too. You can see it was hit a bit high at 100 yards. Sighted in for 200 and I didn't allow for the plus 1.5". Could have been a miss - as it was it wasn't an instant kill. I still rate the .223 though.

----------


## nor-west

Are you going away from the coppers Bruce, for a while you said they were the bees knees?

----------


## Tahr

> Are you going away from the coppers Bruce, for a while you said they were the bees knees?


  @nor-west Im just a bullet slut  :Have A Nice Day:   I'm not using the Barnes at the moment because I need a duel load for wallaby and deer from the same rifle without too much mucking about. Barnes are too spendy for wallaby.

----------


## nor-west

60 grain partition, 63 grain Speer, 64 grain Winchester, can you give these a run please, will work in a slower twist barrel at 22/250 speeds which  is similar to your 223 speeds.  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## tim41

i use 64g winchester soft points and have never had a problem

----------


## 7.62

> I agree, slightly, If I only could have one rifle it would be a 6.5mm Fact is you can run 100gr pills easy as which will do everything a .243 will do but you can run 147s to shoot shit wayyyy out there. Plus how many people do you know that want to run heavy .243 rounds????
> 
> IMO the 6.5 (.260) is what the .243 should have been.


Agree 100%. 6.5 is the sweet spot for great ballistics, low recoil, and moderate barrel wear.  A 6.5x55, 260, Creedmoor, or 6.5x47 would all be very high on my list if I had to own just one rifle.

In regard to the 223 debate, many of us begin our hunting careers with reasonably hard hitting cartridges like a 7mm08, 308, 270 etc. And we soon come to realise that they are a bit overkill for shooting yearlings or spikers at shorter ranges. We start thinking about another rifle to add to the safe for our meat hunting endeavours; something that’s accurate, fun to shoot, with no recoil and a flat trajectory. So low and behold, a 223 finds it’s way into the safe. But I believe this is a mistake and most of us would be better served by a 243 for that role. Well that’s been my experience anyway

----------


## Happy Jack

Love my 22.250 as it falls somewhere between the .223 and .243 and shoots flat too

----------


## Taupohunter

I would not be using a Vmax on deer or goats. I have shot thousands of rabbits with them and a few goats...they explode. I have shot a plenty of goats and deer with a 55gr Sierra gamekings.

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## Tahr

Last night. .223...363 yards
77 grn Sierra TMK. Exit pic.

----------


## Tahr

> @Tahr do you find the 77gr better than the 69gr and how do they go on chest shots . just wondering as going to try one or other in my 16inch ruger. cheers


Better penetration and trauma with the 77 grn, but the 69 grn is pretty good too.
You will need a 1:8 twist for the 77grn. 1:9 is ok for the 69. Both will kill well with careful shoulder shots but the 77grn certainly penetrates a bit better. The beauty of the 77TMK is that they are designed for short AR15 type magazines so shoot very well at 2.3" from a Tika mag, whereas the 75 and 80 grn ELDM gobble up a lot of powder space. @gimp uses the .223 ELDM and knows a bit about them on deer. 

I would have been quite happy shooting last night's hind in the shoulder - but had to be a smarty pants  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## BlaserMac

Has anyone tried Hornady GMX projectiles in .223 or .243 on deer?

----------


## kiwigreen

> Has anyone tried Hornady GMX projectiles in .223 or .243 on deer?


Yep they work great at close range, usually zip right through with good entry & exits, definitely steps the .223 up at bush ranges out to 150m. I've shot animals as big as sambar in the shoulder/engine room.

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## gimp

> Better penetration and trauma with the 77 grn, but the 69 grn is pretty good too.
> You will need a 1:8 twist for the 77grn. 1:9 is ok for the 69. Both will kill well with careful shoulder shots but the 77grn certainly penetrates a bit better. The beauty of the 77TMK is that they are designed for short AR15 type magazines so shoot very well at 2.3" from a Tika mag, whereas the 75 and 80 grn ELDM gobble up a lot of powder space. @gimp uses the .223 ELDM and knows a bit about them on deer. 
> 
> I would have been quite happy shooting last night's hind in the shoulder - but had to be a smarty pants


Another one for the 80 ELDM, 190m heart shot, wobbled a few metres then dropped. Hit a bit lower than I'd like, but just soup on the inside

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## GWH

> Another one for the 80 ELDM, 190m heart shot, wobbled a few metres then dropped. Hit a bit lower than I'd like, but just soup on the inside


Is your barrel 8 twist,  or faster?

----------


## Timmay

> Is your barrel 8 twist,  or faster?


Yeah I'm pretty sure he had it replaced with a 1:8... I'm very jealous.

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## gimp

1:8, with modified mags that allow a longer OAL (Something like 65mm)

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## Bagheera

> Go the "Mighty Mouse" as i love the .223!
> 
> I won't shoot deer over 250 with the .223 but most of my deer have all been bush hunting but my son who was 12 yrs at the time dropped a nice Fallow stag at 230 mtrs one day to a clean heart shot with 55 gr Sierras
> 
> I ran 55 gr V-max for a while with great results on Sika just shooting them in the chest where the chest cavity was mush and then switched to 55 gr Sierras but at least with them they mushroomed and most of the time i'd find them on the other side under the skin (chest shots)
> 
> Both types of projectiles killed well and it was a toss up of whether i stick with the vmax or Sierras and i think from memory i just went with the Sierras because i like a good lead tip.
> 
> Alot of people like to mention with .222/.223 to head/neck shoot deer where as with the sika and fallow i just shot them in the chest and down they'd go every single time but with reds and lets face it their a bigger bodied animal so with them you need to place the shot in the neck though I have heard of guys using barnes who just shoot the boiler room.
> ...


Here we have they key issue with .223.
Ive seen seventenths shoot on paper and he is a phenomenal shot.
Competent and good dont even start to describe it.
It sounds as if he can also shoot enough animals that he can let them walk any time.
The later posts here are mostly from older forum members and past masters.
This is not a calibre for the beginner or youth.

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## veitnamcam

65gr SGK ,Fallow @247m ,hillar shot, broke both onside and offside legs took out both lungs and top of heart.
Expected to find it under the skin as couldn't find an exit on the hill but on skinning a few days later found it had just managed to exit.
Bit messy but it didn't argue the point at all.
It did well to exit after breaking both leg bones.
In


Out

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## veitnamcam

> dont you think " messy " might be a slight understatement .


Thats after I trimmed most the blood out so it didn't go off in the chiller!
Its not as bad as the 60grvmax tho I was surprised at the damage considering the range.
I think the fact it collected solid leg bone on impact contributed a lot vs a clean crease shot. Shot was to put it down on the spot and it did that.

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## Allizdog

Something like a 243win would be perfect for fallow and handle reds at sensible ranges too. One of the best in between cals for those animals I reckon. But realistically what ever you hit it with (hilar shot) at least one shoulder is usually fucked for meat anyway.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Something like a 243win would be perfect for fallow and handle reds at sensible ranges too. One of the best in between cals for those animals I reckon. But realistically what ever you hit it with (hilar shot) at least one shoulder is usually fucked for meat anyway.


While I agree in part I think the country you hunt rather than the game you hunt decides both the ideal caliber and the marginal calibers.

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## 7.62

> Something like a 243win would be perfect for fallow and handle reds at sensible ranges too. One of the best in between cals for those animals I reckon. But realistically what ever you hit it with (hilar shot) at least one shoulder is usually fucked for meat anyway.


+1.  The 223 is pretty effective when used sensibly, especially on fallow. But as soon as you run into a big red hind or spiker that’s spent most of its life gorging itself on good farm tucker, and it’s 250yd away and looking decidedly nervous, you’ll be feeling justifiably under gunned. Not so with a 243

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## TeRei

> At what point in time was that Micky Duck? .222,308 and .270 were the main flavours and on the odd occasion certain guys were supplied .243. that list was a definite on the Thar blocks. Although the majority of hunters on the Thar including myself carried .222's. I'm talking mid 60's-late 70's.


The cullers in the NW Ruas or some of them preferred the 243 and had to trade ammo because the powers that be did not like the venerable 243 yet was a fantastic calibre for slip shooting in the river catchments. Yes some idiots [aged 18] hauled around the BSA CF2 270. A railway track would have been lighter but with a 130gr pill it certainly hammered deer. Some used them as a replacement for the 303 spinner. Gary Sutton shot 7 deer above the Ironbark hut on the tops next to Mokai Station in spring 1976 using a 222 which was quite a feat considering he normally used a 270 which was bigger than himself.This hill was adjacent to the clip on the Redstag timber dude and Alipate? were shooting in the saddle during Covid period.

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## doinit

> +1.  The 223 is pretty effective when used sensibly, especially on fallow. But as soon as you run into a big red hind or spiker that’s spent most of its life gorging itself on good farm tucker, and it’s 250yd away and looking decidedly nervous, you’ll be feeling justifiably under gunned. Not so with a 243


I'd try and get a tad closer if possible,failing that,walk away.....guess it depends on the individual eh. Still...a large number of biggish animals have gone down over 200yds range...no worries. As mentioned,,,the 243 was favoured by a few cullers. Pretty sure ti say that the wee 22 calibers had a huge following.

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## vulcannz

> Something like a 243win would be perfect for fallow and handle reds at sensible ranges too. One of the best in between cals for those animals I reckon. But realistically what ever you hit it with (hilar shot) at least one shoulder is usually fucked for meat anyway.


I hunted a lot of fallow with a 243, then I got a 300BLK. What I noticed is that the 243 did considerably more meat damage across a larger area. The 300BLK has dropped them on the spot more, and does a tighter more violent area of damage (to the point my butcher/wife was much happier with the amount of meat recovered). I sold the 243.

I suspect it is to do with a bigger calibre and lower velocity imparting more damage.

----------


## 7.62

> I'd try and get a tad closer if possible,failing that,walk away.....guess it depends on the individual eh. Still...a large number of biggish animals have gone down over 200yds range...no worries. As mentioned,,,the 243 was favoured by a few cullers. Pretty sure ti say that the wee 22 calibers had a huge following.


Yeah when I had a 223 I shot the odd deer at over 200. A mate also used my rifle to tip over a couple of small red yearlings at about 250; they both ran but expired pretty quickly with lung shots. But I suspect that bigger tougher animals would’ve run quite some distance before expiring, and possibly been lost. After losing a good sized fallow spiker, and then having a few “runners” despite being hit hard, I got fed up with the 223 and replaced it with a 243. Sometimes you don’t have time or adequate cover to stalk in closer and that’s when the 223’s limitations were exposed to me.
 @vulcannz a slow 30 cal will definitely damage less meat than a fast 6mm. 300blk is a great bush cartridge but I need something that’s capable out to 300yd so that discounts it for me

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## MB

> I hunted a lot of fallow with a 243, then I got a 300BLK. What I noticed is that the 243 did considerably more meat damage across a larger area. The 300BLK has dropped them on the spot more, and does a tighter more violent area of damage (to the point my butcher/wife was much happier with the amount of meat recovered). I sold the 243.
> 
> I suspect it is to do with a bigger calibre and lower velocity imparting more damage.



I assume you're talking about 300BLK supersonic? I've got my little 300BLK outfit sorted now, but only used it with subsonic rounds.

----------


## vulcannz

Nah using supers (125grain American Gunner). I have it setup for subs, just never used it in anger.

----------


## vulcannz

> @vulcannz a slow 30 cal will definitely damage less meat than a fast 6mm. 300blk is a great bush cartridge but I need something that’s capable out to 300yd so that discounts it for me


I'd be happy out to 300m or a bit more with it. Sure it has a bit more of a rainbow that the 243, but it's very predictable.

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## MB

> Nah using supers (125grain American Gunner). I have it setup for subs, just never used it in anger.


Those rounds are listed as a varmint round. Sounds like you get on with them OK. Are they OK for hilar shots up to 100 metres?

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## vulcannz

Most of my shots are around 200m in the engine compartment. IMHO they drop better than the 243 (I was using 80gr fed powershoks on that).

----------


## gimp



----------


## Tahr

> 


That's cool.

----------


## gimp

I like that little rifle. Super quiet, light and zero recoil. Just works great.

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## Tahr

> I like that little rifle. Super quiet, light and zero recoil. Just works great.


Was that this one:

_Another one for the 80 ELDM, 190m heart shot, wobbled a few metres then dropped. Hit a bit lower than I'd like, but just soup on the inside_

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## gimp

Yeah, images don't want to upload properly off my phone for whatever reason.

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## vulcannz

Here's my son when he was 12 with the blackout. Overall length with suppressor is 115cm. IIRC that deer was around 180m, it reared up and rolled down the hill onto the track for us.



Scope is a Nikon Monarch 3 2-8x32, and DPT Can.

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## Tahr

> I like that little rifle. Super quiet, light and zero recoil. Just works great.


  @gimp. My Tikka. I just cant decide whether to cut the barrel back to 20" or not. I like the 2930fps it generates with the 77grn and don't want to sacrifice that really.

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## Micky Duck

leave it as it is mate.....wise man one said "if it works DONT FCUK with it"

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## gimp

> @gimp. My Tikka. I just cant decide whether to cut the barrel back to 20" or not. I like the 2930fps it generates with the 77grn and don't want to sacrifice that really.
> 
> Attachment 154922


18" = 2800 with 80gr, loaded long. 25gr 2208. Could probably get more out of it

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## Southerner223

16" Barrel on Tikka 1:12", use the 55gr projectiles, seem to work on sheep in the bush alright. On the spot,

----------


## tikka

> 16" Barrel on Tikka 1:12", use the 55gr projectiles, seem to work on sheep in the bush alright. On the spot,
> 
> Attachment 154930


What speed you getting with the 55gr

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## Dama dama

Nice ram!

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## Maxx

> I like that little rifle. Super quiet, light and zero recoil. Just works great.


Hi Gimp,

'Scuse the ignorance, but what is it? And does it have any modifications? 

Cheers

----------


## gimp

> Hi Gimp,
> 
> 'Scuse the ignorance, but what is it? And does it have any modifications? 
> 
> Cheers


It's a model 7 .223, Manners stock, 18" custom 1:8 barrel, with CDI bottom metal to use AICS .223 mags that allow long OAL.

----------


## Bushline

Has anyone tried the gorilla ammo controlled fracture ammo, I think its available in 62grain 223 ?

----------


## Tahr

77 grn Sierra TMK at 150 yds last week (shot off my knees). Reared backwards, gained its feet and departed. Dead about 30 yards away.



Entry into ribs under shoulder.

----------


## Steelisreal

@Tahr - do the 77 TMKs make it out the other side at all?

I just got a box to try in mine.

----------


## Tahr

> @Tahr - do the 77 TMKs make it out the other side at all?
> 
> I just got a box to try in mine.


Ive shoulder and lung shot about 6 deer with them and haven't had one exit. I did find the shredded base of this one just under the skin on the off side. 
They do exit on neck shots.

I have though shoulder/lung shot quite a few with the 69 grn TMK and had some of them them exit.

This is the exit from a 77grn at about 80 yards:

----------


## Bushline

> Ive shoulder and lung shot about 6 deer with them and haven't had one exit. I did find the shredded base of this one just under the skin on the off side. 
> They do exit on neck shots.
> 
> I have though shoulder/lung shot quite a few with the 69 grn TMK and had some of them them exit.
> 
> This is the exit from a 77grn at about 80 yards:
> 
> Attachment 156418


Is there an option of that projectile for someone who doesnt reload?

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## Tahr

> Is there an option of that projectile for someone who doesn’t reload?


Not that I know of, but Norma sell a factory load with the 55 grn Barnes that would be pretty good so far as you don't shoot over 200 yards or so.

----------


## gimp

This one exited (80gr ELDM). Worked as you'd expect

----------


## Been Upto

> Attachment 156744
> 
> This one exited (80gr ELDM). Worked as you'd expect


Beautiful bro! @gimp been missing your videos bro, you plan to make  anymore in the future? Cheers

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## caberslash

> It's a model 7 .223, Manners stock, 18" custom 1:8 barrel, with CDI bottom metal to use AICS .223 mags that allow long OAL.


Which model Manners is that?

Shame CDI is gone, always seems that in the firearms world when there is something you want/need it's no longer made.

Cracking setup!

----------


## gimp

> Beautiful bro! @gimp been missing your videos bro, you plan to make  anymore in the future? Cheers


At some stage, I'll start again. It's a lot easier just going hunting though

----------


## gimp

> Which model Manners is that?
> 
> Shame CDI is gone, always seems that in the firearms world when there is something you want/need it's no longer made.
> 
> Cracking setup!


EH8 I think 

Have CDI shut down? Bummer. There's Badger Ordnance and PT&G options though

----------


## Tahr

77grn TMK remnant from off side of shoulder shot hind. 156 yards.

----------


## gimp

Looks like it doesn't quite hold together as well as the ELDM

----------


## Tahr

> Quite happy to use a 55gnSP in the right circumstances when the shot is on. 
> This one dropped like a stone @247y but again I was really confident of the shot (stopped, head down, grazing, no wind, good set up I trusted and not a rushed shot). I think that's a really good point @NewbieZAR raises that we sometimes miss because we are prepared to rush a shot, rather than respect the animal and let it walk.
> Attachment 149348
> 
> I now have the luxury with a faster twist 1:8 .223 of using a 75 grain bonded Speer Gold dot - which I'm looking forward to using a little more with these and this cal across a wider range of animals. BTW the place was mainly Fallow, but when life gives you a upgrade who am i to say no...


 @Carpe Diem - reviving an old thread. Do you have anything further to report on the Gold Dot? Effectiveness, load etc? Thanks

----------


## Carpe Diem

@Thar - sorry Mate has been very busy last 6 months at work and have had some family issues to attend to so haven't got out enough to give you an apropriate update.

Hopefully there's a bit more rain soon up here and I can get back to the Forest (when it re-opens) and do a few experiments on some goats up here for you. 
I'll also start documenting the 223 accuracy journey as I was going to do a ladder next time out anyway to confirm a few things.

----------


## Tahr

> @Thar - sorry Mate has been very busy last 6 months at work and have had some family issues to attend to so haven't got out enough to give you an apropriate update.
> 
> Hopefully there's a bit more rain soon up here and I can get back to the Forest (when it re-opens) and do a few experiments on some goats up here for you. 
> I'll also start documenting the 223 accuracy journey as I was going to do a ladder next time out anyway to confirm a few things.


Great thanks

----------


## gimp

The 80 ELD-M works on big bull tahr, too. Shot 2 bulls, botg in the shoulder/lungs at about 60m, both ran a few metres then died, one bullet under the skin on the off side, the other must have hit more bone, the core separated and it didn't make it all the way through the off shoulder. Both 12"

----------


## veitnamcam

What's your COAL with the 80s @gimp ?

----------


## gimp

About 67mm from memory, a bit longer than most .223 mags will allow

----------


## veitnamcam

> About 67mm from memory, a bit longer than most .223 mags will allow


That is long! 
Jefferson's bottom metal on my Howa allows about 63mm....quite a bit more than the stock magazine but still a long way short of 67mm.

----------


## gimp

It's quite annoying that the Howa mini magazine is so restrictive for OAL. The modified accurate mags I'm using would allow longer if you wanted e.g. you could chamber for a longer throat and seat the 88gr ELDMs out further. My chamber is roughly set up for a 75-80 seated with the base at the neck/shoulder junction in the case.

----------


## gimp

Left - right: Red hind 250m, fallow buck 170m, bull tahr 60m. Nice little mushrooms

----------


## Nakivet

Those are 80 ELDMs gimp?

----------


## gimp

Yes, 80gr ELDM at 2810fps muzzle

----------


## Flyblown

> Left - right: Red hind 250m, fallow buck 170m, bull tahr 60m. Nice little mushrooms...


That is one of the most interesting recovered bullet photos I have seen in a while @gimp.

I’ve been a staunch advocate of ELD-M bullets in my homeland for a good while now - I am using the 6mm version and flattening reds, fallow and goats past 400m. Very happy indeed with the terminal performance. By and large I get lambasted by the Europeans for being an unethical heathen for even hinting at the use of “match bullets”. (Add that to the concept of using a .224 calibre rifle and I’d be put on the rack.)

I’d love to know what the expansion on those mushrooms is as a function of calibre. They all look over 2x and a bit more.

----------


## Tahr

It seems though that if the ELDM hit solid bone they do seperate (as per one of gimp's Tahr). Over all though the ELDM do seem to hold together better than the Sierra Tipped MK.

Ive just had 2 of the "Waters" 6 shot 2.6" (66mm) Tikka mags arrive so that I can try the 80ELDM, and seat the 77TMK I'm using a bit further out. I don't though expect to see a big advantage with the ELDM on deer.

----------


## gimp

I doubt you'd notice a difference. This little guy did separate, found halfway through the off shoulder. I didn't find the core but I also didn't really waste time looking as it was more or less dark and I had a big walk out

----------


## gimp

270m

----------


## Tahr

Go you   @gimp! Most excellent. You are a true .223 savant. I have put mine to one side until their antlers fall off.

Where did the ELDM strike and how did it perform?

----------


## superdiver

> 270m
> 
> Attachment 164417


Absolute savage. Love your work with the 223 mate

----------


## Dreamer

> 270m
> 
> Attachment 164417


Nice one and @gimp bring back your videos! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## gimp

> Go you   @gimp! Most excellent. You are a true .223 savant. I have put mine to one side until their antlers fall off.
> 
> Where did the ELDM strike and how did it perform?


I'd say I'm an unreasonable optimist, or purely irrational 

Hit high in the shoulder and broke the spine, died instantly.

----------


## Tahr

> I'd say I'm an unreasonable optimist, or purely irrational 
> 
> Hit high in the shoulder and broke the spine, died instantly.


Great! And it was a wonderful pic too.

----------


## Hunter_Nick

Good sh*t  @gimp

Love your confidence and the fact you go full send with the .223!

----------


## gimp

> Nice one and @gimp bring back your videos! 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I keep thinking about it, but I get a lot more hunting done just hunting...

----------


## grandpamac

> I think you have started something  @gimp. Since you have mentioned the 80gr ELD-M there seems to have been a run on them. I tried today to get some from Gunworks but it seems that they have a sudden rush on them. Not suprising when one does a ballistics report on this projectile.
> 
> ShootersCalculator.com | Ballistic Trajectory Calculator  80gr ELD-M .223
> 
> If you can get it out the barrel at 2800fps it is still travelling at 2372fps with 1000ft/lbs at 215 meters.
> I know that shot placement is vital and ft/lbs can be secondary......but to have 1000ft/lbs has got to give that little extra reassurance.
> 
> Almost make one think of trading in the .308
> 
> ...


Glad you were kidding Phil,
With a .223 and a .308 you probably don't need much else, unless you really want something else as well, in which case you definitely do need it. Clear?
Regards, with the right number of rifles, today anyway Grandpamac.

----------


## gimp

> I think you have started something  @gimp. Since you have mentioned the 80gr ELD-M there seems to have been a run on them. I tried today to get some from Gunworks but it seems that they have a sudden rush on them.


Unfortunate! The .223 took care of 19 Marlborough goats over the last few days for a bit of deer habitat improvement, and I only have 300 or 400 ELDs in stock so I might run out soon at this rate

----------


## veitnamcam

> 65gr SGK ,Fallow @247m ,hillar shot, broke both onside and offside legs took out both lungs and top of heart.
> Expected to find it under the skin as couldn't find an exit on the hill but on skinning a few days later found it had just managed to exit.
> Bit messy but it didn't argue the point at all.
> It did well to exit after breaking both leg bones.
> In
> Attachment 154687
> 
> Out
> Attachment 154688
> ...


Clean crease shot 65gr game king at aprox 160m
Collected a rib on the way in and way out.
Drunken walked 10ish meters with a fountain of blood squirting out the off side before falling over dead.

Much more like the performance I would expect of this projectile.

In



Out



In



Out

----------


## Tahr

> Clean crease shot 65gr game king at aprox 160m
> Collected a rib on the way in and way out.
> Drunken walked 10ish meters with a fountain of blood squirting out the off side before falling over dead.
> 
> Much more like the performance I would expect of this projectile.
> 
> In
> 
> Attachment 166512
> ...


Great. Good skinning job - looks like it was done cold, and they can be difficult - your back must be coming right.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Great. Good skinning job - looks like it was done cold, and they can be difficult - your back must be coming right.


Yep getting there getting strenght and mobility back slowly :Have A Nice Day: 

Yes done cold and thanks for noticing  :Grin:  was going slow and carefully to not hole skin to get tanned for Daughter.

----------


## doinit

I find it quite comforting to see and hear that there are dudes who have actually done some home work.
Realising that such a small pill can have such a huge effect if used appropriatly...good stuff and may the .223 live on eh..

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## kukuwai

> Yep getting there getting strenght and mobility back slowly
> 
> Yes done cold and thanks for noticing  was going slow and carefully to not hole skin to get tanned for Daughter.


Bloody nice shot placement for her first deer, awesome  some tasty eating right there  

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## Tahr

Here's another interesting bit of .223 performance and quite different to the soft ELDM & Sierra tipped. More like Cam's 65 grain but a bit harder and controlled expansion. This was shot not long ago with a Nosler 64 grain bonded solid base (not the old Nosler solid base-this is a modern bonded bullet that has sadly just gone out of production). I have 200 hundred of them. The 62 grain Speer Gold Dot perform in a similar fashion and they are still available. https://www.nzammo.co.nz/product/165...ategoryId=1513

Shot was about 120 yards and hit at an angle in the shoulder and the bullet penetrated right through and out the paunch. They penetrate like crazy and one went right through a big lump of a Red spiker. They are bowling along at 3150 fps.

In balance I think I prefer the big soft target bullets because they seem to have a higher shock and damage factor, but you need a 1:8 twist. In my 1:9 Savage theses little Nosler's are pretty damn good, albeit that Ive only shot 3 deer with them. All one shot kills.

Exit


In, under the shoulder.


Out.


The big Red that one went right through at 240 yards. Ran about 25 yards.

----------


## Rock river arms hunter

I'll offer my 2c here.

Got mates down these ways who use 223 for reds as bush rifles. They typically run 60gr + projectiles.

Sierra 65gr Gamekings being the go to for most. From what I've gathered their neck shooting, behind the shoulder aiming for the lungs in much the way a bow hunter would or shoulder shooting.

Most are having no problems with the deer dropping within  a few steps. I've shot a few fallow pre 2019 and it worked really well with the likes of the 64gr powershoks et  but I just dont for reds as although I can absolutely place my shot I like to know full well I've got plenty of gun. Hence why I own 7mm and 30cals.

One mate runs a 13" howa mini action, bush hunts and man can he put a few down.

I hope my rambling helps the OP  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Happy Jack

I run a 22-250 and am looking at putting some 62-64gr pellets through it instead of the standard 55gr that most ammo comes with off the shelf just to have a slightly better for bigger targets than goats.

----------


## caberslash

> I run a 22-250 and am looking at putting some 62-64gr pellets through it instead of the standard 55gr that most ammo comes with off the shelf just to have a slightly better for bigger targets than goats.


Sierra make a 63 grain semi-pointed flat base bullet.

It's rated for 1:14-1:12 barrels.

Don't let the 'Varmiter' tag fool you!

https://www.sierrabullets.com/produc...ber-63-gr-smp/

----------


## Strummer

So is there any accepted wisdom on what would be an 'ideal' barrel twist rate for dropping reds?

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## Micky Duck

> So is there any accepted wisdom on what would be an 'ideal' barrel twist rate for dropping reds?


anything tight enough to stabilize projectiles.... guys have been dropping reds with 50grn projectiles since the 222 was invented.... the deer havent got any harder to kill.

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## Strummer

Yes, I was more meaning: are the projectiles heavier than the 60ish grn mark better medicine? Faster twists can stabilise these better...so theyre the way to go?

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## Micky Duck

buy a 243......or a 22hp savage  both were made many years ago to do what a fast twist .223 is doing now...be able to shoot 80ish grn projectiles fast....
seriously if you arent shooting past 150 yards,just be happy with the rifle you have...pick your shots and enjoy  the venison.

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## 7mmwsm

> So is there any accepted wisdom on what would be an 'ideal' barrel twist rate for dropping reds?


One that twists around a 30 caliber hole is a good start.

----------


## erniec

> One that twists around a 30 caliber hole is a good start.


You do have a way with words.

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## gimp

> So is there any accepted wisdom on what would be an 'ideal' barrel twist rate for dropping reds?


1:8.

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## Tahr

1:9 up tp 69grn 
1:8 70-80 grn.

As per gimp above, 1:8 (and heavier bullets) is optimal.

----------


## Strummer

Good info.

Now we have twist wisdom sussed...what about ideal barrel length I wonder? How short is too short?!

----------


## grandpamac

> So is there any accepted wisdom on what would be an 'ideal' barrel twist rate for dropping reds?


Greetings Strummer,
1 in 8" twist for the .223 not only for dropping reds but for all purposes. I load both the 169grain and 55 grain projectiles in my 1 in 8" twist Tikka and both shoot equally as well and by happy chance almost to the same place. So far the .223 has been shouted down by other inhabitants of the rifle cupboard when a walk in the bush is considered but I really should include a load with a hunting projectile as well. I expect it will shoot just as well and likely to much the same place.
Regards Grandpamac.

Clearly that should be 69 grains. The 8" twist would not stretch that far. Note to self: Read through posts more carefully in future.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Good info.
> 
> Now we have twist wisdom sussed...what about ideal barrel length I wonder? How short is too short?!


If going to shoot heavy for cal leave it long or only minimal shortening....not starting with a lot of horspower to begin with.
That said I am going to take a couple of inches off mine so it will fit under the seat in the boat.

----------


## 223nut

So I chimed in on this thread at the start and haven't read much in between. 

T3 cut down to about an inch over legal length and a dpt on it. Have taken it out the last few trips, head and neck shots no problem out to 150m.

Discovered why I stopped using it after taking a chest shot at 120m (in the dusk on private land) it had only gone 30m but no exit wound made it hard to find.

So my take on it, 223 is fine for deer.... just be patient and wait for the right shot or let the animal walk (hard but as the years go by I find it easier)

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## Tahr

1:8, heavy projectile over 75grn, 20”. Breathes new life into the .223.

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## gimp

18 inch is working for me

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## Strummer

Thanks guys. Just curious what sort of velocities you're getting from these heavier pills?

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## gimp

2812fps

Optimal length isn't as clear as optimal twist. Longer will give you more speed but I like shorter barrels.

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## veitnamcam

> 2812fps
> 
> Optimal length isn't as clear as optimal twist. Longer will give you more speed but I like shorter barrels.


What powder under the 80s?

----------


## gimp

2208

----------


## Backsteaks

> 2812fps
> 
> Optimal length isn't as clear as optimal twist. Longer will give you more speed but I like shorter barrels.


Impressive out of a short barrel. What sort of velocity loss would you expect for another 2 inches shorter at 16”?

----------


## Ross Nolan

> Impressive out of a short barrel. What sort of velocity loss would you expect for another 2 inches shorter at 16”?


I'm getting 2780 out of 16" with a 75 Amax.

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## Tahr

2,930fps. 77 grn. 2206H. 21.5"

3K, 69grn. 2206H. 20"

3,130fps, 64 grn, 2206H. 20"

----------


## viper

> 2,930fps. 77 grn. 2206H. 21.5"
> 
> 3K, 69grn. 2206H. 20"
> 
> 3,130fps, 64 grn, 2206H. 20"


 @Tahr
so I have picked up a Savage / Stevens  with a 1-9 twist, apparently loves 69gr projectiles , do you have a bullet choice that would be suitable on Deer..mainly fallow and Reds. ??

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## Tahr

69 grn Sierra Match Tipped and 2206H powder. Lethal.

----------


## Trout

And thats with a 223,no walking away deer there.

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## Tahr

> And thats with a 223,no walking away deer there.


Sorry - I deleted the pic. Second thoughts about it being a bit gruesome.

----------


## Tahr

> @Tahr, sorry that you felt the need to delete the pics.
> I saw it before you deleted and also showed Sharon, who was rightly impressed.
> I am currently trying to encourage Sharon into using the .223 rather than exclusively shooting with the .22 Mag after her fiasco introduction with the Baikal .243....my fault....but that is another story
> 
> Why I am sorry that the picture has been removed is that it shows very graphically the true effect of the bullet on the deer and this I find a far better way of assessing the bullets effectiveness rather than the often overused phrases such as DRT, or it ran x meters and dropped.
> A verbal description is up for interpretation by the user and the reader and either can add a reasonable amount of variation to what actually occurred.
> A picture of the damage, even though graphically gruesome to some, shows exactly what happened, and is...for me at least....a better means of making an assessment of which bullets work.
> 
> This was also borne out by Sharon looking at the picture and making her own assessment that with an exit hole as shown, the animal had been dispatched in a very ethical manner and would be very dead. 
> ...


Here it is.

69 grain tipped Sierra exit @ 230 yards. Red spiker.

----------


## Ben Waimata

It's interesting reading this thread, many readers would get the impression you need 70gn+ and even then only the correct projectiles to make .223 a viable round, yet we've got most of our commercial pest control people culling deer very successfully with 55gn belmont (or whatever else is cheap), along with heaps of other shooters and hunters doing the same thing.

----------


## Tahr

> It's interesting reading this thread, many readers would get the impression you need 70gn+ and even then only the correct projectiles to make .223 a viable round, yet we've got most of our commercial pest control people culling deer very successfully with 55gn belmont (or whatever else is cheap), along with heaps of other shooters and hunters doing the same thing.


Exactly. Most .224 cal projectiles are good enough so long as their limitations are understood. The 55 grn Hornady that Belmont use are perfectly adequate and bowl plenty of deer. But there is better if you have the right twist and hand load.

----------


## gimp

> It's interesting reading this thread, many readers would get the impression you need 70gn+ and even then only the correct projectiles to make .223 a viable round, yet we've got most of our commercial pest control people culling deer very successfully with 55gn belmont (or whatever else is cheap), along with heaps of other shooters and hunters doing the same thing.


Sure, it's the difference between optimal and functional

----------


## Micky Duck

I guess its a bit like me using the 22-250 with explosive varmit projectiles going fast to shoot hares at 75 yards...I could do it with the humble .22lr  but its just so much more emphatic with big rifle.
I do understand the advantage of heavier projectiles (why I have 170grn rn for the .270) I also know I can kill deer deader than dead with 50grn load in the 223 IF I get in close and put it in right place.

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## Micky Duck

youve done opened a can of worms now Phil.......you will be going to cabinet and eni meany miny moe  from here on in...enjoy your venison ,it should be good n tasti eating.

----------


## grandpamac

> This morning, 0715 hrs, this little fallow turned up with two of his mates.....one of them being the "white buck" of a few days ago. 
> 
> Attachment 167659
> 
> In fact had I not spotted the buck standing out like dogs balls 700 meters away in a paddock I would have walked right past them as I went to the forest edge in search of the elusive pigs.
> Anyway, ducking out of sight and skirting around them through the forest and then crawling on my stomach to the 'grassy knoll' overlooking where they were grazing I managed to close the gap to 140 meters. One shot aimed at mid shoulder, passed through both shoulders and lodged under the hide on the other side. The wee fella jumped straight up in the air, took about 4 wussy steps and then collapsed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Greetings Phil and All,
That white fallow could have a nasty surprise once you get those TMK's loaded. And yes Micky there is a ruckus coming from my rifle cupboard every time the occupants think one of them might be taken out for a walk. And yet when I spotted that the Bergara single shots were chambered in 6.5x57R I got all weak at the knees thinking how great one would be to go with my .308. Fortunately after a couple of days I had persuaded myself that the two 6.5x55 rifles I already have should suffice. Then I thought that one in .357 Mag would be really useful. Oh well it is just a cross us rifle loonies have to bear, some more than others.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## veitnamcam

> This morning, 0715 hrs, this little fallow turned up with two of his mates.....one of them being the "white buck" of a few days ago. 
> 
> Attachment 167659
> 
> In fact had I not spotted the buck standing out like dogs balls 700 meters away in a paddock I would have walked right past them as I went to the forest edge in search of the elusive pigs.
> Anyway, ducking out of sight and skirting around them through the forest and then crawling on my stomach to the 'grassy knoll' overlooking where they were grazing I managed to close the gap to 140 meters. One shot aimed at mid shoulder, passed through both shoulders and lodged under the hide on the other side. The wee fella jumped straight up in the air, took about 4 wussy steps and then collapsed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful well done, enjoy the venison.

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## veitnamcam

I like carcass pictures if you managed to get it out whole and hang.
Tho I have a pretty good idea what it will look like.

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## andyanimal31

> I guess its a bit like me using the 22-250 with explosive varmit projectiles going fast to shoot hares at 75 yards...I could do it with the humble .22lr  but its just so much more emphatic with big rifle.
> I do understand the advantage of heavier projectiles (why I have 170grn rn for the .270) I also know I can kill deer deader than dead with 50grn load in the 223 IF I get in close and put it in right place.


Get in close and great placement is the operative words.
I have seen to many fuckups with bad shot placement guys that tell you they head shoot everything, they go very quiet when I ask how many deer have got away with a blown of jaw to then starve to death.
Horses for courses, I use the right chambering for the sized critters they are targeting.
A big stag shot with a 22-250 had nine shots in it by the time it expired.
Not impressed

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## Maca49

Fallow I got a few weeks ago, have ditched the 223, to fussy as a cartridge, have owned two Tikkas, 1:8and 1:12, both hopeless, a savage 1:12, best I owned for accuracy and a Kimber, yuck. Sold them all and just use a Sako 6.5 x 55. Clover leaf at 100 without trying, so this is now my go to.

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## Maca49

Double up

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## andyanimal31

> Attachment 167676Attachment 167677
> Fallow I got a few weeks ago, have ditched the 223, to fussy as a cartridge, have owned two Tikkas, 1:8and 1:12, both hopeless, a savage 1:12, best I owned for accuracy and a Kimber, yuck. Sold them all and just use a Sako 6.5 x 55. Clover leaf at 100 without trying, so this is now my go to.


Funnily enough my go to rifle is a tikka 6.5x55 to!
Punches way above its weight and scarily accurate.
On its 3rd barrel now

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## Flyblown

Tonight, just on deer o’clock. I’d actually gone up the hill with the intention of longer range rabbits and hares, but these two were in the way. The .223 Remington will always have its place when it comes to precision deer shooting.

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## MSL

> Tonight, just on deer oclock. Id actually gone up the hill with the intention of longer range rabbits and hares, but these two were in the way. The .223 Remington will always have its place when it comes to precision deer shooting.
> 
> Attachment 167684


I dont want to hear of your success


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## veitnamcam

> Attachment 167676Attachment 167677
> Fallow I got a few weeks ago, have ditched the 223, to fussy as a cartridge, have owned two Tikkas, 1:8and 1:12, both hopeless, a savage 1:12, best I owned for accuracy and a Kimber, yuck. Sold them all and just use a Sako 6.5 x 55. Clover leaf at 100 without trying, so this is now my go to.


You must surely be the first person in the world to call 223rem a fussy cartridge.
It along with 308win would have to be the most simple and forgiving and cheap cartridges to shoot and load for.... everything shoots well!

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk

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## veitnamcam

> It's hanging in a tree out back all skinned and gutted. Will try and get pictures before Sharon - aka Mac the Knife - gets to it and starts boning it out. Made a mess on the way through and nicked the heart but not an impressive wound channel or exit hole. Hence I look forward to the 69gr TMK's
> 
> Cheers
> Phil


You just wont get an impressive wound channel with 223.
Its 50 to 80 grain at quick to moderate velocities.

It didn't go far tho did it.

A decent projectile like the one you used or a heavier and soft one will do the job every time if you do yours.

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## 7.62

> Fallow I got a few weeks ago, have ditched the 223, to fussy as a cartridge, have owned two Tikkas, 1:8and 1:12, both hopeless, a savage 1:12, best I owned for accuracy and a Kimber, yuck. Sold them all and just use a Sako 6.5 x 55. Clover leaf at 100 without trying, so this is now my go to.


I’m with @vietnamcam on this one: a fussy tikka 223? Is there such a thing? But sounds like your 6.5 is doing the business, keep up the good work

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## Tahr

> Tonight, just on deer o’clock. I’d actually gone up the hill with the intention of longer range rabbits and hares, but these two were in the way. The .223 Remington will always have its place when it comes to precision deer shooting.
> 
> Attachment 167684


Projectiles/details?

----------


## Flyblown

50gr Z-Max, 3400fps, 150m. Mum and progeny I’m guessing. I shot the hind first, the others (4 or 5) ran like a boatload of illegals at the shot, but the young one stayed rooted to the spot staring at the recently departed. So together in life and in death, and now together in the chiller.

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## Finnwolf

> It's hanging in a tree out back all skinned and gutted. Will try and get pictures before Sharon - aka Mac the Knife - gets to it and starts boning it out. Made a mess on the way through and nicked the heart but not an impressive wound channel or exit hole. Hence I look forward to the 69gr TMK's
> 
> Cheers
> Phil


 Conversely Ive had a factory PMC projectile from my 223,Mini14 ( remember them?) go through a large red hind, made a neat hole between ribs, through the lungs and out between ribs on the far side.
Hind went about 30 yards before tipping up.

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## veitnamcam

Things to remember here Phil is that projectile construction and  (impact)velocity are the major players in terminal performance.

Inline with the opening posts question if constrained by twist rate then yes varmint projectiles in the heaviest you can stabilize are an option to extend effective range but a bad option for close body shots.

I have lost count of how many times I have heard someone say and this is with any caliber " they pencil threw up close"  "but work good out far"

This is the exact opposite of how bullets work and behave on soft targets.
Ask for more information there is none why?...because..they shot it in the guts in the thermal and it slunk off.

The higher the impact velocity the more violent the expansion, so if you took the same exact shot at 200y I would bet both my testicles it would have reacted simarly and the projectile would have exited.

----------


## 7mmwsm

> Yes, I remember the the M14. The only centrefire semi that I ever considered owning. Left my run to late on that one now.....
> 
> Cheers
> Phil


Pretty sure some of your work "associates" will be able to hook you up with a mini 14 Phil.

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## gimp

I recovered another 80gr ELDM from a fallow doe the other day, shot at about 20m high shoulder, nice mushroom under the skin on the offside. A 2nd doe shot at a bit longer range,maybe 40m, the bullet entered the brisket and exited behind the shoulder, not recovered.

----------


## gimp

The ELDMs are likely a problem to get working well from any factory rifle. The easiest solution for a good factory setup would be a Howa mini 1:8" and shoot 77gr TMKs.

----------


## veitnamcam

Yep and if you get a Jefferson outdoors bottom metal for the mini you get more overall lenght possible in the mag and a nice flush floorplate.

Mine is the older 9 twist not the new 8 however it did stabilise and shoot the 73gr eldm quite well but only at a low charge so that might be worth a try in your rem Phil

Actually I should revist it now I can load it longer.

----------


## Tahr

> OK, I had to go and clear a tree off a fence this morning but left instruction with 'Mac the Knife' aka Sharon. Bless her cotton picking socks.....she did take pictures before taking the knife to the animal but unfortunately her skills and appreciations of postmortem pictures doesn't match her skills at surgically removing fingers....
> 
> How ever, they give an idea. I also asked here to measure the holes and interestingly the the entry to the rib-cage was the same as the exit....1.5 cm
> 
> Exterior Rib-cage entry. Remember, this has already gone through the shoulder which we unfortunately don't have pictures of.
> 
> Attachment 167766
> 
> This is the interior picture of the same hole.
> ...


Thats good performance.

----------


## Tahr

> Yes, I have considered the 73 gr ELDM's as an alternative though I don't think there is much chance of sourcing them easily at present.
> I have managed to score 200 69gr TMK's and they are rated at 1 in 10 twist or faster so I am not anticipating any issues with those....I just need the time to develop the load and get to the range. 
> I will start with those, and who knows, I may find those to be all I need or want.
> 
> Cheers
> Phil


They seem to work from touching through to 20 thou off the lands

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## Tahr

@Phil_H while you are on a .223 roll this is worth looking at https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...-deer-antelope

In particular the post from "Formidilosus" (which should be on the page that comes up)

----------


## Tahr

> Clients @7mmwsm.....Clients.
> 
> Mind you, unfortunately, the distinction between colleague, associate and client can at times become very blurry....
> 
> Not proud to say that but at times a sad reality.....
> 
> Cheers
> Phil


Ha ha. Sometimes the wrong person has got the uniform on  :Have A Nice Day: 

Cripes those M14s' were rattly inaccurate damn things.

----------


## Micky Duck

SOME of them were accurate ..some were VERY ACCURATE...shot my first big game animal with one..nanny goat at 50 yards just after cullers had taken 1400 of the farm...headshot her ....was about 10 at the time.

----------


## Tahr

> SOME of them were accurate ..some were VERY ACCURATE...shot my first big game animal with one..nanny goat at 50 yards just after cullers had taken 1400 of the farm...headshot her ....was about 10 at the time.


Hah! A goats head at 50 yards is about 10 minutes of angle.  :Have A Nice Day:  On average their accuracy was shit  :Have A Nice Day:   :Have A Nice Day: 

(Mind, I've had a glass of wine)

----------


## 7mmwsm

> SOME of them were accurate ..some were VERY ACCURATE...shot my first big game animal with one..nanny goat at 50 yards just after cullers had taken 1400 of the farm...headshot her ....was about 10 at the time.


Unlucky goat, or extremely talented shooter?

----------


## Micky Duck

> Unlucky goat, or extremely talented shooter?


well before that all I had shot were rabbits...got VERY good at stalking in to 10-15 yards and popping them with 410...I can remember shooting hare at 30 yards and thought I was daniel boone.... the head looked like good place to shoot it,so I did LOL.
my older Bro had 3 mini 14s over the years,the first n third were accurate...not bruno fox accurate but plenty good enough to deal to goats at 250yards. the 2nd one got sent back quick smartly.

----------


## Jhon

I spent a lot of lockdown time last year at my reloading bench making up various test loads that are taking me a while to get thru at the range.  Had a few lovely sunny hours yesterday including with my little Ruger Ranch and thought these results might be useful.  Next step of course is to post real world flesh impact pics.  Hopefully before not too long. The range is only 38m cause I'm a lazy fella when it comes to traipsing back and forth to document and patch. And yes, there are 4 shots on each card.  I'm shooting seated at a table with the fore end resting on a cushion. The aberrant charge was excluded from the average, forgot to note that on the page. Anyway..

----------


## gimp

3031 is equivalent to BM2 and ADI book max for BM2 is 23.5gr, likely you can go hotter. It's also not the ideal choice for velocity with a 69gr, too fast burning - 2206H is probably best if you can get some.

----------


## bunji

@Phil_H I taught both of my girls to take larger game starting with goats, then Fallow & snack pack Reds by using loads like the very mild recoiling  Federal 55 grain soft points ,over a couple of years they would have shot over 250 goats & 14 deer with them .Even their first Stags were taken using  the Federal Premium load with the Nosler 55 grain BT as both loads shot 3/4 MOA ,5 shot groups consistently .I used that time to teach them stalking, so shots at the start were limited to under 80 yards & then 150 yards,they never lost any animal & most were shoulder shots that dropped them like sacks of shite & the majority exited,l often found the shrapnel effect from shattered bone in the chest cavity.

If the eldest daughter had not claimed the Howa mini l would still be using it  shooting the  77gr TMKs

PS may be the reason Sharon's photos were a bit shaky, was because she now has trouble reaching the shutter button  :Psmiley: .Hope she is mending well (obviously if she is out the back imagining a deer carcass is a giant carrot in revenge while hacking away at it ,she is doing well ) pass on our well wishes . :Psmiley:  :Thumbsup: 


   @grandpamac G'day Grandpamac I saw your " I spotted that the Bergara single shots were chambered in 6.5x57R I got all weak at the knees ." If you ever look at getting another close caliber or replacing those two 6.5x55 rifles ,l strongly recommend you look at a 6.5x65mm RWS a calibre IMO perfect for NZ & one of the most over looked cartridges in the word .It does everything the 6.5x55 does only better ,throws shade on the  260 & 264 Mag & does just about everything  the 270 can do, all with exceptionally mild felt recoil that comes back in more like a slow roll than a punch .I have used the 120 &130gn Barnes TSX  doing 3000fps +to take all our deer & a lot of plains game & took a Kudu at 314 yards with the 160gn while the wind was howling& it smashed both shoulders with a 3 inch exit & to this day have absolutely no recollection of the recoil ,one of the out standing features of the cartridge in the field  is due to the mild rolling recoil you have  the ability for quick follow up & staying on target .

Mine is high up on the should never have sold list ,it was only a budget build by a UK gunsmith for a work horse guide gun on the old Mark X Mauser actions & what l believe was a thinned down Boyd laminate stock that were both all the flavor over a 10-15 years ago, that l got cheap S/H in Africa.With the improvements in bullet construction & powders it would be a even better cartridge these days.
 @Jhon I used a similar load doing around 2400 fps to start my daughters off shooting center fires & it was very accurate in 2 separate rifles l tried it in ,after a couple of week ends they did not want to use their .22's again & l quickly had to find another 223 not long after.

On a serious note ,can l also ask the Admin's ban any future posts by @Jhon  showing his lay out of load testing notes .I spent 20 mins staring at my screen through  the tear stains & my missus has had to make a booking with a therapist for me so l can try to regain my self worth after comparing my own smudged ,written upside down ,crossed out 3 times & at varying angle jottings from my own load testing notes.Put simply in the words of WE'RE N0T WORTHY    .Seriously well done on showing us how it should be done  :Thumbsup: 

https://tenor.com/view/were-not-wort...ld-gif-9201571

----------


## Jhon

> 3031 is equivalent to BM2 and ADI book max for BM2 is 23.5gr, likely you can go hotter. It's also not the ideal choice for velocity with a 69gr, too fast burning - 2206H is probably best if you can get some.


Ok thks, yes I have AR2206H. Almost finished loading some up as I write this .

----------


## Tahr

> I spent a lot of lockdown time last year at my reloading bench making up various test loads that are taking me a while to get thru at the range.  Had a few lovely sunny hours yesterday including with my little Ruger Ranch and thought these results might be useful.  Next step of course is to post real world flesh impact pics.  Hopefully before not too long. The range is only 38m cause I'm a lazy fella when it comes to traipsing back and forth to document and patch. And yes, there are 4 shots on each card.  I'm shooting seated at a table with the fore end resting on a cushion. The aberrant charge was excluded from the average, forgot to note that on the page. Anyway..
> 
> Attachment 167837


   @top of the south and I shot a Fallow spiker at about 150 yards with my 20" .223 using Fiocchi factory ammo shooting the same 69grn target projectile at 2600fps. Lung shot and it ran 15 yards and died before I needed to get another shot into it. I found the projectile under the skin on the off side and it was nicely mushroomed.

Here 'tis

----------


## grandpamac

> @Phil_H I taught both of my girls to take larger game starting with goats, then Fallow & snack pack Reds by using loads like the very mild recoiling  Federal 55 grain soft points ,over a couple of years they would have shot over 250 goats & 14 deer with them .Even their first Stags were taken using  the Federal Premium load with the Nosler 55 grain BT as both loads shot 3/4 MOA ,5 shot groups consistently .I used that time to teach them stalking, so shots at the start were limited to under 80 yards & then 150 yards,they never lost any animal & most were shoulder shots that dropped them like sacks of shite & the majority exited,l often found the shrapnel effect from shattered bone in the chest cavity.
> 
> If the eldest daughter had not claimed the Howa mini l would still be using it  shooting the  77gr TMKs
> 
> PS may be the reason Sharon's photos were a bit shaky, was because she now has trouble reaching the shutter button .Hope she is mending well (obviously if she is out the back imagining a deer carcass is a giant carrot in revenge while hacking away at it ,she is doing well ) pass on our well wishes .
> 
> 
>    @grandpamac G'day Grandpamac I saw your " I spotted that the Bergara single shots were chambered in 6.5x57R I got all weak at the knees ." If you ever look at getting another close caliber or replacing those two 6.5x55 rifles ,l strongly recommend you look at a 6.5x65mm RWS a calibre IMO perfect for NZ & one of the most over looked cartridges in the word .It does everything the 6.5x55 does only better ,throws shade on the  260 & 264 Mag & does just about everything  the 270 can do, all with exceptionally mild felt recoil that comes back in more like a slow roll than a punch .I have used the 120 &130gn Barnes TSX  doing 3000fps +to take all our deer & a lot of plains game & took a Kudu at 314 yards with the 160gn while the wind was howling& it smashed both shoulders with a 3 inch exit & to this day have absolutely no recollection of the recoil ,one of the out standing features of the cartridge in the field  is due to the mild rolling recoil you have  the ability for quick follow up & staying on target .
> 
> ...


Greetings Bunji,
Thanks for your reply. I think that my 6.5x55 T3 I bought a few years back will do for the limited hunting I am likely to do in the future however I have to agree with you about the 6.5x65 RWS. Charles Benke (I think) wrote about it and the 6.5x64 Brenneke a few years ago in Handloader.  I currently provide what I call technical assistance to a friend who has a 6.5-06 and who does not handload. He absolutely loves it. There are just not that many gaps left to fill in the rifle cupboard which usually halts any new purchases as long as I think about it for a while. The 6.5x64 is the 6.5-06 with a longer neck and the RWS a bit different again. All truly great rounds, especially in NZ. As a retired draughtsman (amoung other things) my handloading notes are reasonably neat but not as good as they were 40 years ago so to remove any chance of offending I will refrain from post any pictures.
Regards Grandpamac.

----------


## Tahr

Here's a little Fallow I shot last night. 150 yards, 77grn Sierra Tipped. 

I was perplexed about the larger than usual size of the entry and that I couldn't find the projectile. No exit either. 

On reflection I recall that the front of the deer was shielded by light scrub which I shot through. I think that the bullet must have been expanded or busted up as it penetrated the scrub.
Anyway. Dead deer.

----------


## Tahr

> might have to get a packet of those to try, just got a packet of those gold dot 62gr yesterday as cant get the 69gr tmk for the ruger.



Gold Dot are very good too.

----------


## Tahr

@veitnamcam likes autopsies  :Have A Nice Day: 

From the last deer (above).
Looking at the angle of the shot and exit maybe the big entry was because of the angle of the shot rather tan a blow up, sort of scimming in a bit.
In


It did exit


But left some lead core under the skin. The jacket must have exited.

----------


## tiroahunta

> Ha ha. Sometimes the wrong person has got the uniform on 
> 
> Cripes those M14s' were rattly inaccurate damn things.


Yes. I owned two over the years...dunno why I bought the second one. Slow learner I guess...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## bunji

Just a heads up, just received info Belmont  Ammo is about to do another batch of their excellent 62grn SP load, which out of my Howa ran at just under 3000 fps.Very good performance on Fallow & Red Snack packs, as well as goats l used them on .These shot 12-18 mm in the Howa & under MOA in the Mod 7 & Sako.

These batches sell out in days normally, so we just buy the bulk packs that come at 1000 rnds loose in the ammo can& split them up among our hunting group.

----------


## Dama dama

> might have to get a packet of those to try, just got a packet of those gold dot 62gr yesterday as cant get the 69gr tmk for the ruger.


 @berg243  where did you get the 62gr gold dots from?  I've been trying track some down.

----------


## Dama dama

Bugger.  No can't help you there....

----------


## Dama dama

Mate, that would be awesome if possible!  Thanks for thinking of me.

----------


## charliehorse

I saw some 69g tmk's the other day, PM if you want the details

----------


## Tahr

55 grn Hornady exit @ about 220 yards (.223).
Bullet sitting under the skin. Hit in crease. Ran about 30 yards.

----------


## Micky Duck

cant complain about that !!!!!

----------


## Ben Waimata

> 55 grn Hornady exit @ about 220 yards (.223).
> Bullet sitting under the skin. Hit in crease. Ran about 30 yards.
> 
> Attachment 169748
> 
> Attachment 169749


That's good to know, this thread would otherwise make you think 55gn don't work on deer!

----------


## Jhon

On a serious note ,can l also ask the Admin's ban any future posts by  @Jhon  showing his lay out of load testing notes .I spent 20 mins staring at my screen through  the tear stains & my missus has had to make a booking with a therapist for me so l can try to regain my self worth after comparing my own smudged ,written upside down ,crossed out 3 times & at varying angle jottings from my own load testing notes.Put simply in the words of WE'RE N0T WORTHY    .Seriously well done on showing us how it should be done  :Thumbsup: 

https://tenor.com/view/were-not-wort...ld-gif-9201571[/QUOTE]

Ha, thanks!  I was too embarrassed to publish my handwritten rangebook page..its not a difficult template to create but if anyone wants it PM me, it's just a Word.docx file. The photos I take while my barrel cools. On my Android I found if I crop the photo immediately I take it, then edit details and change the default jpg file name to a detailed name such as "240gnHawkesT_AR220726gn-45m.jpg" then I forever have a labeled record of the group. And by the time I've walked back my barrel is back down to warm. Don't worry about deciphering my filename,  just make up one that is meaningful to you. From my phone I share the photos to a Dropbox folder and from there I insert them into the word document.  To publish them on the forum first off I took a photo of a printed page and uploaded that. Then I discovered a free windows 10 app to instantly convert a word file to a jpeg file. Voila!

A tip when you relable a photo via its filename, do the first one for a group, then copy it. Your clipboard will hold that available so the next group you just select the default filename the app has used and hit PASTE. then edit what has changed, usually just the powder charge. Sounds tedious but becomes very quick. Once done I patch the target and therefore have no worries about confusing groups. FWIW.

I only go to the trouble of making the record for range tests that are really meaningful to me.  All the raw stuff I keep anyway in my range book so I'm not repeating stuff because I forgot it didn't work.

----------


## doinit

Ha..been banging off a few of those Hornady 55grn soft nose jobs ? lately myself.  They are capable of wasting some good meat on occasions.

----------


## doinit

> That's good to know, this thread would otherwise make you think 55gn don't work on deer!


Hey?  I'd say there has been one hell of a number of different deer types put down with 55grn'ers...but hey we know that eh?  Smaller 50grn'ers have taken down a hellova number over many decades also ,fact.

----------


## Micky Duck

anywhere in the eye son,anywhere in the eye
get as close as you can,then 5 yards closer
pick your shot or let it walk away

----------


## Ben Waimata

> Hey?  I'd say there has been one hell of a number of different deer types put down with 55grn'ers...but hey we know that eh?  Smaller 50grn'ers have taken down a hellova number over many decades also ,fact.


That was a feeble attempt at humour on my part, about all the talk on heavier pills here. I'll go make a cup of tea now.

----------


## charliehorse

> That's good to know, this thread would otherwise make you think 55gn don't work on deer!


I stocked up on them a while back ready for the impending global shortage. A  very old old old wise man from the king country said many a deer has been dropped with with traditional projectiles. The fandangle ones are just a luxury.

----------


## doinit

> anywhere in the eye son,anywhere in the eye
> get as close as you can,then 5 yards closer
> pick your shot or let it walk away


Ha'ha..you been sittin round a fire with some ol koot eh  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Micky Duck

oih I resemble that remark.
I dont believe there are many hunting books written before 2000 that I havent read at least twice.... cut my teeth on Holden,Burdon,Orman and Co......
I learnt to shoot using single shot 410.....my 22 was remington single shot and man did that account for a LOT of animals over the years.... Ive never owned a semi,Ive inherited a semi shotgun now....but just as happy to take the break open
I will probably get flammed for typing this,but Im big enough and definately ugly enough to take it on the chin.....
In my opinion,it was the wholesale uptake of semi 223s that gave it bad reputation on deer sized animals......some folks had got into the spray n pray type of shooting..... when folks use ANY type of 222/223/22hp savage/22-250 and take time to get in close,aim properly and fire single round into boiler room or nervous sytem...animals fall over
when you KNOW you have 5-10-15-30 more bangs at your disposal just by another yank on trigger,that first shot CAN BE RUSHED,well thats what Ive seen over the years....I KNOW for myself,when using single shot break open,my shot to kill ratio has ALWAYS been very very high...as soon as there was more in mag, it went up.
Ive not buggered up a deer with 223 yet...cause I make plurry sure shot is going to do bizo or just dont squeaze off...my life experience has taught me I will only get one good shot,so make it count.
there are a lot of folks on this forum I would dearly love to sit around fire with.
cold beverage in hand,moreporks calling in back ground,dog curled up asleep by my feet,campoven feed filling puku to excess.

----------


## Trout

Me old dad manys manys yrs ago had a single shot 22 remmington.Fk could he shoot with it,deadly as.Even head shot ducks on the water at 70 80 yds with open sigths.

----------


## doinit

> oih I resemble that remark.
> I dont believe there are many hunting books written before 2000 that I havent read at least twice.... cut my teeth on Holden,Burdon,Orman and Co......
> I learnt to shoot using single shot 410.....my 22 was remington single shot and man did that account for a LOT of animals over the years.... Ive never owned a semi,Ive inherited a semi shotgun now....but just as happy to take the break open
> I will probably get flammed for typing this,but Im big enough and definately ugly enough to take it on the chin.....
> In my opinion,it was the wholesale uptake of semi 223s that gave it bad reputation on deer sized animals......some folks had got into the spray n pray type of shooting..... when folks use ANY type of 222/223/22hp savage/22-250 and take time to get in close,aim properly and fire single round into boiler room or nervous sytem...animals fall over
> when you KNOW you have 5-10-15-30 more bangs at your disposal just by another yank on trigger,that first shot CAN BE RUSHED,well thats what Ive seen over the years....I KNOW for myself,when using single shot break open,my shot to kill ratio has ALWAYS been very very high...as soon as there was more in mag, it went up.
> Ive not buggered up a deer with 223 yet...cause I make plurry sure shot is going to do bizo or just dont squeaze off...my life experience has taught me I will only get one good shot,so make it count.
> there are a lot of folks on this forum I would dearly love to sit around fire with.
> cold beverage in hand,moreporks calling in back ground,dog curled up asleep by my feet,campoven feed filling puku to excess.


Ha'ha'ha your a hard case Duck,good write up,fare enough although I think yi may have just picked it up a tad the wrong way.
The  Anywhere in the eye lad saying has been around for ever,was told to myself at the old age of 13yrs. My look up to hunter at the time was a culler and friend of my old mans. Many yrs on me myself and I would have used that old saying a lot and mostly to younger dudes keen to listen and maybe pick up on good hints in regards to hunting etc. And even tiday I still meet a few of those same guys who I used to help and they still to this day give me shit about how to use a small pill properly,followed by  anywhere in the eye lad,blah,bla hard cases.
I'll bet that ol saying will be still goin when I'm long gone eh.
And to be honest it says it how it is,,,and it sure as hell works.

----------


## Micky Duck

to look at it ANOTHER way...when the trebly fist hit our hunting scene...it was an amazingly light rifle that was incredibly accurate compared to MOST other rifles around at the time....so folks who used them,learnt to pick shots or they ended up with wounded game and chucked rifle away in discust.... the chapter 222 the controversial one...penned by Philip Holden all those years ago still hold merit today...NOTHING has changed with animals,we have faster twist barrels allowing heavier projectiles which MIGHT give SLIGHTLY more margin for error...but its slightly....
the folks who used them and loved them ,got in close and picked the shot.....that much HASNT changed.

----------


## gimp

This thread was dropping back a bit. .223 still works.

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## Tahr

> This thread was dropping back a bit. .223 still works.
> 
> Attachment 183363


Nice. Fat. Is that a girl one? That rock looks like a wall in the cafe after a gangster shoot out.

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## gimp

A reasonably aged nanny. Aka 15kg of shoulders, ribs, shanks  backsteaks and boned out hindquarters. Neck meat was a bit past it

----------


## Sideshow

I think @gimp means the neck came ready minced  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Ben Waimata

With all this talk about .223 it makes me wonder, has anyone got any observations about differences (if any) in performance between .223 and 5.56x45?

----------


## 300wsm for life

@Tahr where did you source your aftermarket T3 mag from?

----------


## Tahr

> @Tahr where did you source your aftermarket T3 mag from?


Australia. Easy too import. Someone will know the name, or I will look it up in a week when I get home.

Later, remembered. Waters magazines.

----------


## Steelisreal

> Australia. Easy too import. Someone will know the name, or I will look it up in a week when I get home.


 @300wsm for life - Waters is what you're looking for:

https://www.watersrifleman.com/

----------


## grandpamac

> With all this talk about .223 it makes me wonder, has anyone got any observations about differences (if any) in performance between .223 and 5.56x45?


Greetings Ben,
In a bolt action with handloads probably nothing at all. Almost the same case but with higher pressure in the 5.56mm. The tighter .223 chamber gives higher pressure with 5.56 ammunition and is not advisable for use.
GPM.

----------


## 300wsm for life

@Steelisreal thanks.

----------


## ozzyshane

Hey Gimp are you still using the 80g ELDMs

----------


## TeRei

> to look at it ANOTHER way...when the trebly fist hit our hunting scene...it was an amazingly light rifle that was incredibly accurate compared to MOST other rifles around at the time....so folks who used them,learnt to pick shots or they ended up with wounded game and chucked rifle away in discust.... the chapter 222 the controversial one...penned by Philip Holden all those years ago still hold merit today...NOTHING has changed with animals,we have faster twist barrels allowing heavier projectiles which MIGHT give SLIGHTLY more margin for error...but its slightly....
> the folks who used them and loved them ,got in close and picked the shot.....that much HASNT changed.


The diminutive culler in the NW Ruahines called Garry Sutton used to use a trebly but was forced to use a 270 because he said he lost too many deer and they got paid for by tails. Cullers in thne Ruahines were not given the choice of the 243. Either the 222, 270 or 308. Jim Warrren bought his own ammo to use a 243. Chris Satherley used a 222 and his sad tale of shooting himself in the foot is detailed in Holdens book. The distance Satherley had to crawl is hard to imagine if you have never been over the track. As Holden said it was a testament to his fitness.

----------


## charliehorse

> Hey Gimp are you still using the 80g ELDMs


 @gimp

----------


## gimp

> Hey Gimp are you still using the 80g ELDMs


Yes, I would highly recommend them to anyone with a magazine/throat combo that allows loading them.

----------


## Nathan F

> The diminutive culler in the NW Ruahines called Garry Sutton used to use a trebly but was forced to use a 270 because he said he lost too many deer and they got paid for by tails. Cullers in thne Ruahines were not given the choice of the 243. Either the 222, 270 or 308. Jim Warrren bought his own ammo to use a 243. Chris Satherley used a 222 and his sad tale of shooting himself in the foot is detailed in Holdens book. The distance Satherley had to crawl is hard to imagine if you have never been over the track. As Holden said it was a testament to his fitness.


 @TeRei do you remember which book that’s in ?

----------


## TeRei

> @TeRei do you remember which book that’s in ?


My error; Hunters and the Hunted by Graeme Sturgeon 'CHPT 2 pgs 21-24.

----------


## Bushline

https://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hun...3349454424.htm

Good little 223 package for someone

----------


## Nathan F

> My error; Hunters and the Hunted by Graeme Sturgeon 'CHPT 2 pgs 21-24.


Thank you will have to find a copy

----------


## 7mmwsm

> My error; Hunters and the Hunted by Graeme Sturgeon 'CHPT 2 pgs 21-24.


Pretty sure I read that in one of Holden's books too. Remember him stating that the guy had chopped a couple of inches off his barrel so had lost a couple of hundred feet per second, but it still had enough punch to hurt like hell. Or words to that effect.
That was some of my first "learnings" of barrel length having an affect on velocity. High tech stuff for a young teen in the seventies.

----------


## gimp

> https://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hun...3349454424.htm
> 
> Good little 223 package for someone


Shame they're 1:12

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## Tahr

223 at 30 yards tonight. 69 grn targex.

----------


## caberslash

> 223 at 30 yards tonight. 69 grn targex.
> Attachment 184261


More details of shot?

Did the projectile deflect inside the carcass and exit in an erratic manner?

I hear that this is why a .224 projectile is very deadly all other things considered.

----------


## Tahr

In neck and out shoulder. There was a bit of bullet in the back leg too. Don’t know what that was about.

----------


## chrishuntsnz

Took this fallow with a 223 yesterday evening

----------


## Tahr

229 yds 69 grn Targex. Lung shot. Wobbled around for 20 seconds and then came bowling down the slip.

----------


## 25 /08 IMP

Hornady 55 SP on a fallow at around 100 yards found under the skin on the opposite side.
Massive bruising.

Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk

----------


## Tahr

> Hornady 55 SP on a fallow at around 100 yards found under the skin on the opposite side.
> Massive bruising.
> 
> Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk


Ouch

----------


## ANTSMAN

> 223 at 30 yards tonight. 69 grn targex.
> Attachment 184261


holy hecka!

----------


## charliehorse

> Hornady 55 SP on a fallow at around 100 yards found under the skin on the opposite side.
> Massive bruising.
> 
> Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk


Bugger,  you lost a bit there. How far did it wobble off?

----------


## 25 /08 IMP

> Bugger,  you lost a bit there. How far did it wobble off?


It dropped on the spot I've shit a lot of animals with them and they are very impressive, but do alot of damage.

Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk

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## mawzer308

Sika shot yesterday at 100m with a 64gr Speer gold dot, animal quartering towards, plenty of damage taking out the heart, some lung and liver coming to rest in the gut and expanded very well.

----------


## Tahr

> Sika shot at 100m with a 64gr Speer gold dot, animal quartering towards, plenty of damage and expanded very well. 
> 
> Attachment 185440
> Attachment 185441
> Attachment 185442


Good. I haven't been able to get them to shoot that well. What is your load I wonder?

----------


## mawzer308

@Tahr, just a box of factory ammo Giles had left. Grouped just under an inch in the howa. Have some 60gr TMK and 68gr bthp to try next.

----------


## bumblefoot

I've had a really good run with the Buffalo River 55gr Sierra Game Kings. The Federal 223 Power-Shok 64gr shoot exactly 1" lower than the buffalo at 100m which is handy! 

This is one from the opposite shoulder of a fallow yearling at 346m (used a rangefinder). it held together really well Usually I wouldn't shoot that far with the 223 but had a perfect rest (used a red deer spiker on the front of the bike as a rest !). it was at the same elevation as I was shooting, no wind and a yearling.

----------


## Tahr

Shot this tonight with a 55 grn Sierra Game King. 230 yards.



This is the entry side. Found the mushroomed projectile in the off shoulder under the skin.

----------


## Tahr

55 Sierra from above Fallow.

----------


## Roarless20

All about shot placement and choosing when to take the shot or let them go... just like any cartridge really... 
My tikka .223 is a 1/2moa shooter

I've shot a couple of deer with the .223 77gr lapua scenars hpbt and a heap of goats.
I only head/neck shoot fallow to not waste meat, I carry them out whole and it also makes skinning clean as.



Different story when public land hunting though. Higher chance body shots and boning out. Below is chest shot sika @ 60m. Not a drop of blood at entry and no exit . Luckily he died in 14meters and i didn't have to look far. Will definitely go back to carrying the 6.5 in the bush to guarantee exits and blood...




Dad has shot a heap of deer (fallow, sika, reds, sambar) with the .222 vixen and hornady 55gr sp @3180fps over the years. 
90% neck or headshots as we were selling the deer (higher price for neck/head shot animals) and also because the 55gr SP bruise the whole front end with crease shots!
Just a tiny sample of some more recently shot.



The below was shot the other day with the new .222 barrel and 50gr vmax (fiocchi factory- just getting more cases to load in the new barrel).

----------


## gimp

Shot placement with the 80s is more or less whack it anywhere in the shoulder, anywhere out to 300m+

One of 4 the other weekend 200-300m

----------


## Tahr

This evening. 52 grn ELDM work too. Neck shot @ 177 yards.
3,300fps so it would have stung a bit.

----------


## Micky Duck

well here is as good of place as any to ask....
I have some hornady 60grn spire points and some 63grn semi point sierras...both will work in 22-250  this Im aware of...
is there any real world gain over a 55grn pill in the .223 if I used them in that instead....Im more than happy with how the few 50grn ttsx I have left are working on bigger stuff...but you know,would these be good too??? I assume they will stabilise well in 1;12 at 223 speeds.

----------


## Trout

> This evening. 52 grn ELDM work too. Neck shot @ 177 yards.
> 3,300fps so it would have stung a bit. 
> 
> Attachment 185785


Old eyes can still shoot straight.Well done.

----------


## veitnamcam

> well here is as good of place as any to ask....
> I have some hornady 60grn spire points and some 63grn semi point sierras...both will work in 22-250  this Im aware of...
> is there any real world gain over a 55grn pill in the .223 if I used them in that instead....Im more than happy with how the few 50grn ttsx I have left are working on bigger stuff...but you know,would these be good too??? I assume they will stabilise well in 1;12 at 223 speeds.


Should work fine.
Real world gain over a 55gr? Well maybe a bit more likely to get an exit on a bodyshot I guess.

----------


## Maxx

> This evening. 52 grn ELDM work too. Neck shot @ 177 yards.
> 3,300fps so it would have stung a bit. 
> 
> Attachment 185785


Nice...

Is that deer a bit lean?

----------


## Tahr

> Nice...
> 
> Is that deer a bit lean?


Yes. Fallow spikers are often lean like that.

----------


## Tahr

69grn Targex last week. 150 yds.

----------


## Pommy

65gr Gameking after punching through a red spiker. In through ribs, liver, lungs, recovered under the offside. 300m bang on.



Wasn't emphatic. Should have hit further forward but wind carried it back. No exit so very little blood. Lifted its head up as I got to within 50m and took another to the back of the head.

----------


## Southerner223

55gn PMC gold. $20 for 20. Go alright in a short 16inch barrel. Have some sierra 1365s load developed,  just using the last of my box ammo



Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

----------


## 7mmsaum

> 55gn PMC gold. $20 for 20. Go alright in a short 16inch barrel. Have some sierra 1365s load developed,  just using the last of my box ammo
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


The Sierra code #1365 are hammers on deer with well placed shots

----------


## Micky Duck

well I wasnt going to say anything...but why not...the good the bad and the ugly right????
lined up fallow stag in misty conditions last week...all of 75-80 yards,fired and unseen hind spun around all wobbly like....the 50grn sierra had hit her in bum...literally
side on it went through about inch forward and inch up from her anus.....and she went all of ten yards,fortunately towards me on front legs before laying down in tussocks with head up watching me...2nd shot in head finished it off.
now that is by far and away the worst place Ive ever shot a deer...shot plenty UP the bum with bigger rifles in 90s when few deer were seen and I took whatever shot was in offering before deer dissapeared...surprised me to find projectile still in otherside rump meat,perfectly expanded.
Im guessing the pure shock travelled up spine temporarily paralyzing back wheels not to mention the pelvis being broken.....I got very lucky...lesson learnt.
fallow are STILL my nemesis animal

----------


## gimp

Tonight's job. I'm dreadful at judging the size of pigs.

----------


## mawzer308

Yesterday evening with my boys, stalked to 150m and shot with a Hornady 68gr bthp. Very impressive damage, making a mess of the vitals, performance similar to that of an Amax. The boys did very well bashing our way through Manuka at night, all the way back to the top of the ridge.

----------


## Micky Duck

gimp...that size is the yum size....good work...and not too heavy to carry out either....I can almost see the spare ribs on your oven tray from that tasty porker.

----------


## Nathan F

Just been in and ordered my .223 this morning. I cant wait to join in this thread next year. .222 will retire to the safe for 15 years .

----------


## Tahr

> Just been in and ordered my .223 this morning. I cant wait to join in this thread next year. .222 will retire to the safe for 15 years .


 @Nathan F How long do you have to wait for the new one?

----------


## Nathan F

@Tahr Not long. The rifle is here Just need the mods done. I couldnt justify 6 k for another carbonlight. I brought a T3X superlight. Having the barrel cut 2". Lightweight over barrel supressor. Replace stock with a carbon one. Flute the bolt . Replace the bolt handle. Lighten the trigger. Put the swaro on top and job done. Hammer time !

----------


## Hahn

> @Tahr Not long. The rifle is here Just need the mods done. I couldnt justify 6 k for another carbonlight. I brought a T3X superlight. Having the barrel cut 2". Lightweight over barrel supressor. Replace stock with a carbon one. Flute the bolt . Replace the bolt handle. Lighten the trigger. Put the swaro on top and job done. Hammer time !


 @Nathan F Nice. A rifle like that is on the list for one day but a dream for now. What did it cost all up if you don't mind sharing?

----------


## Nathan F

> @Nathan F Nice. A rifle like that is on the list for one day but a dream for now. What did it cost all up if you don't mind sharing?


Honestly dont know. Didnt ask. Less than a carbonlight anyway

----------


## Steelisreal

I had the opportunity this past weekend to go fill the freezer with some venison and to help the farmer out with their deer 'problem'.

My usual deer huntin' rifle has no scope on it currently, so it's smaller sibling got to go out instead. I've got good loads with two bullets that are suitable for the job. Deer numbers one and two were poleaxed by a neck/base of skull shot and a head shot respectively. Realistically I could have taken these shots with the 53 V-Max I use on wobblies and smaller critters, but what I actually used was the Sierra 77g TMK as weilded very effectively by @Tahr. I thought if a shot on a fallow or red yearling presented itself I could slot one precisely through the ribs and would be fine. Circumstances meant I had perfect shooting position available and was able to take the very emphatic meat-saving head/neck shots - very happy with the outcome. I'll write up something about the weekend over the holidays.

Deer number three got smacked over by a different bullet - the Speer 75g Gold Dot. We had been told there was a good likelihood of seeing pigs in the area we went to Saturday evening, so the Gold Dot seemed like a good choice as they are reputed to expand well but not lose any weight of note. 

After my trusty offsider @Pommy had ventilated one unwary fallow spiker with an Eld-M from his 284 his two mates appeared to run off. But spikers being spikers at this time of year, they reappeared out of the scrub and mostly seemed confused as to why their mate was taking a nap! Now I had to get off a good shot promptly before they ran off and Pommy had my pack, so prone off the elbows it was, threading the shot through the tall grass in front of us. At the shot there was a solid whump and the deer reared up on its back legs then tumbled over and died. 

The bullet entered low in the chest smashing the near leg, travelling through the chest and popping out slightly higher at the back edge of the leg. I didn't gut it so wasn't able to examine organ damage. When we skinned and chopped it up there was considerable damage on the entry side including pooling of a clear jelly like substance.  The exit hole seemed to indicate it had expanded nicely - perfect result really.

----------


## Tahr

> @Tahr Not long. The rifle is here Just need the mods done. I couldnt justify 6 k for another carbonlight. I brought a T3X superlight. Having the barrel cut 2". Lightweight over barrel supressor. Replace stock with a carbon one. Flute the bolt . Replace the bolt handle. Lighten the trigger. Put the swaro on top and job done. Hammer time !


Yay.

----------


## Tahr

> @Nathan F Nice. A rifle like that is on the list for one day but a dream for now. What did it cost all up if you don't mind sharing?


Not hard to roughly figure.

1,600 for rifle
1,200 for stock
400 for sup and thread
100 for bolt handle

A half price carbon light and just as good.

----------


## Hahn

> Not hard to roughly figure.
> 
> 1,600 for rifle
> 1,200 for stock
> 400 for sup and thread
> 100 for bolt handle
> 
> A half price carbon light and just as good.


Thank you  :Thumbsup:  It's on the list for when I can justify it to the other half.

----------


## gimp

> @Tahr Not long. The rifle is here Just need the mods done. I couldnt justify 6 k for another carbonlight. I brought a T3X superlight. Having the barrel cut 2". Lightweight over barrel supressor. Replace stock with a carbon one. Flute the bolt . Replace the bolt handle. Lighten the trigger. Put the swaro on top and job done. Hammer time !


And a mag that allows a decent OAL to load an 80 out long  ideally

----------


## Nathan F

> And a mag that allows a decent OAL to load an 80 out long  ideally


Thanks for the tip. What sort of OAL are we talking ?

----------


## gimp

66mm in the case of these. https://www.watersrifleman.com/magazines/

I can't vouch for the quality of that option personally but there are other options also. A longer OAL mag gives a lot more options for flexibility with 75+ gr bullets

----------


## Tahr

> 66mm in the case of these. https://www.watersrifleman.com/magazines/
> 
> I can't vouch for the quality of that option personally but there are other options also. A longer OAL mag gives a lot more options for flexibility with 75+ gr bullets


 @Nathan F I have a spare Waterman Tikka mag if you need it - we can do a deal. They give you quite a bit of extra length and work just fine. But the 77 grain Sierra Tipped that I use are especially designed to operate in short magged MSSA rifles and work just fine in the standard T3 mag.

----------


## Nathan F

> @Nathan F I have a spare Waterman Tikka mag if you need it - we can do a deal. They give you quite a bit of extra length and work just fine. But the 77 grain Sierra Tipped that I use are especially designed to operate in short magged MSSA rifles and work just fine in the standard T3 mag.


Beautiful. Thank you @Tahr & @gimp . Will sing out once load development starts . Probably be late Jan im pcking. Have a good xmas. Chur

----------


## NewbieZAR

Here is another one i thought worth asking on here.
How does the 69gr SMK go on deer at 223 velocities? I have a little stash of them for on of my 22-250's and they work great at that velocity but have only shot animals up close with it so far.
Do they expand at 223 velocities out to say 300m? i read places that they pencil through deer whithout opening but i am a little bit doubtful of that.

----------


## Tahr

> Here is another one i thought worth asking on here.
> How does the 69gr SMK go on deer at 223 velocities? I have a little stash of them for on of my 22-250's and they work great at that velocity but have only shot animals up close with it so far.
> Do they expand at 223 velocities out to say 300m? i read places that they pencil through deer whithout opening but i am a little bit doubtful of that.


I had heard that they don't expand too. But I lung shot a Fallow at about 150 yards odd while wallaby hunting with fairly anaemic Fiocchi factory 69 grn SMK and it worked just fine. It ran about 20 yards and tipped over. The bullet was nicely mushroomed in the off side ribs. Its the only time Ive used them though. They killed wallaby just fine too.

----------


## Tahr

Steep 140 yard shot last night. 77 grn Sierra TMK into the high shoulder.

----------


## Flyblown

One for the Howa Mini today - thankful for the wee cheapskates precision and lightness for this shot. Used a thin leather sling as a shooter sling resting the elbows on my knees, really steadies things up Sat ready to go for about 20 minutes, waiting for this guy to browse out from behind cover. Had a fully numb bum when it was time to stand up from the crown fern. 

70gr Speer semi-point, about 3150fps. No quibble.

----------


## Trout

Plenty of meat on that fat boy,well done.

----------


## Tahr

> One for the Howa Mini today - thankful for the wee cheapskate’s precision and lightness for this shot. Used a thin leather sling as a shooter sling resting the elbows on my knees, really steadies things up… Sat ready to go for about 20 minutes, waiting for this guy to browse out from behind cover. Had a fully numb bum when it was time to stand up from the crown fern. 
> 
> 70gr Speer semi-point, about 3150fps. No quibble.
> 
> Attachment 189873


Great shot placement for the .223. Range?

----------


## Nathan F



----------


## Flyblown

> Great shot placement for the .223. Range?


Er, that wasn't’ where I shot him @Tahr. That’s where I’ve cut a blood letting hole. I shot him in the back of the neck. Destroyed the Atlas vertebrae. 50ish metres.

----------


## Tahr

> Er, that wasn't’ where I shot him @Tahr. That’s where I’ve cut a blood letting hole. I shot him in the back of the neck. Destroyed the Atlas vertebrae. 50ish metres.


Hah! I did think that it was a hell of a hole for that bullet  :Have A Nice Day:  Oh well, it_ would_ have been a good shot then at a longer range  :Have A Nice Day:  Atlas shot is good.

----------


## Makros

> Tonight's job. I'm dreadful at judging the size of pigs.


 @gimp are you happy to share the specs on your .223 there. It looks like a deadly little weapon!

----------


## Tahr

> @gimp are you happy to share the specs on your .223 there. It looks like a deadly little weapon!


Quote Originally Posted by Maxx  View Post
Hi Gimp,

'Scuse the ignorance, but what is it? And does it have any modifications? 

Cheers
It's a model 7 .223, Manners stock, 18" custom 1:8 barrel, with CDI bottom metal to use AICS .223 mags that allow long OAL.

----------


## Tentman

Hello all.  My model 7 223 with 1:12 twist is going very nicely with Hornady factory 55 grainers, intended for wallabies and goats.

But it seems I've got lucky and this rifle shoots everything I've tried in it to a very similar point of aim at 100M- within 10-12mm which isn't what ya usually get!

Anyhoo if a bloke wanted the most effective 60/70 gn bullet for the odd deer that pops up when a bloke is out and about (like the one  @Tahr is posing with in his nice green jacket) would one bother to change rounds (time permitting) and if so what is the optimum choice.  I'm more likely to trip over a Red where I mostly hunt . . .

----------


## Makros

> Quote Originally Posted by Maxx  View Post
> Hi Gimp,
> 
> 'Scuse the ignorance, but what is it? And does it have any modifications? 
> 
> Cheers
> It's a model 7 .223, Manners stock, 18" custom 1:8 barrel, with CDI bottom metal to use AICS .223 mags that allow long OAL.


Thanks! 
Have a Manners Carbon fibre stock on my .270 T3 and rate it too! I can feel a new toy build in the wings... been wanting a .223 again.

----------


## Makros

Actually found Gimps rifle's birthday post so to speak:
https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....n-223-a-58517/

Kiwi Greg put together a ripper by the looks.

----------


## 25/08IMP

> Hello all.  My model 7 223 with 1:12 twist is going very nicely with Hornady factory 55 grainers, intended for wallabies and goats.
> 
> But it seems I've got lucky and this rifle shoots everything I've tried in it to a very similar point of aim at 100M- within 10-12mm which isn't what ya usually get!
> 
> Anyhoo if a bloke wanted the most effective 60/70 gn bullet for the odd deer that pops up when a bloke is out and about (like the one  @Tahr is posing with in his nice green jacket) would one bother to change rounds (time permitting) and if so what is the optimum choice.  I'm more likely to trip over a Red where I mostly hunt . . .


Those 55grn Hornady SP pills are awesome on deer I wouldn't bother changing if a deer popped up in front of me.
The heavies are better at longer range with a strong wind.

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

----------


## Tahr

> Hello all.  My model 7 223 with 1:12 twist is going very nicely with Hornady factory 55 grainers, intended for wallabies and goats.
> 
> But it seems I've got lucky and this rifle shoots everything I've tried in it to a very similar point of aim at 100M- within 10-12mm which isn't what ya usually get!
> 
> Anyhoo if a bloke wanted the most effective 60/70 gn bullet for the odd deer that pops up when a bloke is out and about (like the one  @Tahr is posing with in his nice green jacket) would one bother to change rounds (time permitting) and if so what is the optimum choice.  I'm more likely to trip over a Red where I mostly hunt . . .


If they shoot in your rifle I would use the 69 Targex for every thing. Great on roos and good deer medicine. Not too costly to use on bunnies and paper.
Thats all I use in my Model 7 and it means I don't have to frig around with various loads for different purposes.

----------


## mawzer308

I must admit I'm a convert, the performance when loaded appropriately is not bad at all. Below is a sika stag shot at 140m with a 75gr eldm @2780fps, dropped on the spot and didn't move. Repeated that performance on a mature red hind @180, same thing happened, very happy.

----------


## Flyblown

Just now, 40m standing in the scrub. All instant collapses.

I find these classic 70gr Speer are very capable.

----------


## Micky Duck

man those goats are FAT..... 70grn speers you say...must have a look on my shelf LOL.

----------


## Hunty1

> 70gr Speer semi-point, about 3150fps. No quibble.


 @Flyblown what's the load? That's quite fast for a 70gr isn't it?  Just curious as my 75gr ELD Load only does 2750 out my howa.

----------


## charliehorse

Had to look in my book also @Hunty1

----------


## Micky Duck

> Hello all.  My model 7 223 with 1:12 twist is going very nicely with Hornady factory 55 grainers, intended for wallabies and goats.
> 
> But it seems I've got lucky and this rifle shoots everything I've tried in it to a very similar point of aim at 100M- within 10-12mm which isn't what ya usually get!
> 
> Anyhoo if a bloke wanted the most effective 60/70 gn bullet for the odd deer that pops up when a bloke is out and about (like the one  @Tahr is posing with in his nice green jacket) would one bother to change rounds (time permitting) and if so what is the optimum choice.  I'm more likely to trip over a Red where I mostly hunt . . .


I just carry a few 50grn TTSX or 55grn TTSX loads in my tit pocket....same load as all other loads just different projectile.... they tip deer n pigs over nicely.
did cock up the other day loading mag in the dark and I shot 3 wallabies with 55grn TTSX..... not ideal at all...far too pricey and too hard for them,did wonder what was going on when first one hopped off looking crook instead of expiring on the spot.

----------


## TeRei

> I just carry a few 50grn TTSX or 55grn TTSX loads in my tit pocket....same load as all other loads just different projectile.... they tip deer n pigs over nicely.
> did cock up the other day loading mag in the dark and I shot 3 wallabies with 55grn TTSX..... not ideal at all...far too pricey and too hard for them,did wonder what was going on when first one hopped off looking crook instead of expiring on the spot.


Barnes seem to have dried up in NZ. Targex 69gr seems the alternative or lighter pill Bryn makes.

----------


## Micky Duck

gunworks still showing 45-50and 53grn barnes in stock......

----------


## 223nut

Entry wound after skinning, head down feeding 50-60m. 55gr fioochi soft point (factory box doesn't give any other details) 223 t3 1/8 twist barrel cut down short (can't recall length but so the dpt just clears the stock)

Bit surprised exit wound wasn't any bigger but it had been a while since I used anything other than the 308.

----------


## caberslash

> Attachment 190204
> Attachment 190205
> Entry wound after skinning, head down feeding 50-60m. 55gr fioochi soft point (factory box doesn't give any other details) 223 t3 1/8 twist barrel cut down short (can't recall length but so the dpt just clears the stock)
> 
> Bit surprised exit wound wasn't any bigger but it had been a while since I used anything other than the 308.


Did the neck get broken by the bullet?

----------


## 223nut

> Did the neck get broken by the bullet?


Yep, I sometimes have trouble getting a join in the spine to take the head off, not an issue on this one.

----------


## Flyblown

> @Flyblown what's the load? That's quite fast for a 70gr isn't it?  Just curious as my 75gr ELD Load only does 2750 out my howa.


 @Hunty1, I should have the raw chrono speeds in a file somewhere. I remember being surprised at the speed, but then it is a hottish load of 2206H. Certainly above ADI book max but IIRC about the same as another sources book max. My Howa is 20 barrel.

But I do remember tuning the velocity and the BC to fit the drop data, which was a lot less drop than I expected at 300m. So I think the velocity and the BC both went up so I got a curve that matched the other drops. It hits where its supposed to farther out so, guess thats what counts.

----------


## Hunty1

> @Hunty1, I should have the raw chrono speeds in a file somewhere. I remember being surprised at the speed, but then it is a hottish load of 2206H. Certainly above ADI book max but IIRC about the same as another source’s book max. My Howa is 20” barrel.
> 
> But I do remember tuning the velocity and the BC to fit the drop data, which was a lot less drop than I expected at 300m. So I think the velocity and the BC both went up so I got a curve that matched the other drops. It hits where its supposed to farther out so, guess that’s what counts.


Thanks for that, I'm also running a hot load of 2206H and was surprised by my low velocity. Need to shoot it at range to confirm. As you say as long as it hits where its expected that's the main thing!

----------


## Tentman

Is it just me or are 223's particularly "unreliable" when it comes to predicting velocity against barrel lengths?

I shot my Rem M7 in the weekend, Hornady 55gn ammo with a specified velocity of 3240.  

The M7 has an 18" barrel with a muzzle forward suppressor.  I was surprised to Chrony the H55's at 3100, from everything I'd read they should have been around 2950??

----------


## NewbieZAR

> Is it just me or are 223's particularly "unreliable" when it comes to predicting velocity against barrel lengths?
> 
> I shot my Rem M7 in the weekend, Hornady 55gn ammo with a specified velocity of 3240.  
> 
> The M7 has an 18" barrel with a muzzle forward suppressor.  I was surprised to Chrony the H55's at 3100, from everything I'd read they should have been around 2950??


all depends on barrel and chamber mate. i have a 308 that gives 2820fps with the same ammo that gives 2700 in another 308 wiht a longer barrel, same i had a 16" 243 that gave 150fps more than another 22" 243 with same ammo

----------


## Moutere

> Nice one and @gimp bring back your videos!





> I keep thinking about it, but I get a lot more hunting done just hunting...



Cmon !

Make with the content already that cool little rifle is begging for a PATHFilmsNZ YouTube esposé.

----------


## Tahr

After a few thousand rounds my Savage Lightweight .223 has lost its accuracy with its favourite loads. I haven't looked into it too closely but because it still shoots with seated out projectiles Im thinking its throat erosion. Its probably only ever shot "warm plus" loads if the truth be known.

So Ive taken it as a good opportunity to re-barrel it from 1-9 twist to 1-8 in stainless and to go up one contour. The mag is 1.42" so it will handle 77/80 grn. I love this little gun:

Trueflight T3 contour fluted. Sandblasted.
20" threaded 1/2x20

It should still weigh under 6lb (5.5lb at te moment).

Smithing being done by a nice man on the forum.

----------


## Tahr

That should be mag is 2.42"

----------


## nor-west

That will be even more of a deadly weapon Bruce, "Warm Loads" lol I bet your brass wished for that.  :Grin:

----------


## Tahr

> That will be even more of a deadly weapon Bruce, "Warm Loads" lol I bet your brass wished for that.


Ha ha. Well they don't have a plimsol line so ive always thought you just fill them to the top.  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Ross Nolan

Reloading is a bit like the law - sometimes what you do matters more than your intent....

----------


## Tahr

We live and learn. Ive used hundreds and hundred of Targex 52 grn and 69 grn. Wonderful accurate killing machines for deer down.

I started cruising the internet looking for heavier bullets for my new 1:8 barrel and could only find what I already have (Ive got 2000 .224 bullets in stock - but use 600 a year at least). I like to try different bullets though. Mucking around, but I do have my main stays.

Anyway - a recess in my old brain told me that Targex make an 80 grain .224 and that would be ideal for the new barrel. And NZ made. An email, and yup Bryn does make 80 grn .224. BC .430. 200 in the making. Deer, be afraid  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## gimp

Excellent.

----------


## Southerner223

Purchased this off the forum couple weeks ago, 8 twister, barrel a tad shorter than I was looking for but hopefully I can work with it and took the punt, 16.5inch

Let's see how this combo goes,

----------


## Nathan F

Finally here - load development this weekend 

Weighs nothing either

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

Ok I couldn't take it any longer so had to get in on the act.

I picked this up today, sighting in tomorrow then an evening hunt.

Tikka 223 1.8 twist

----------


## Shamus_

I have got a M7 in 1:9 twist and it loves the Hornady 55 SP which is handy as I have got heaps. I am looking at getting another 223 and the Tikka T3x is the current favourite,  @Nathan F love your one mate  :Thumbsup:  How are these with the 55 grain in the faster twist? Anyone using this combo?

----------


## 223nut

Must be something in the air... I have a 1:8 ordered going in a carbon stock and z5 on top.

----------


## Ben Waimata

> Must be something in the air... I have a 1:8 ordered going in a carbon stock and z5 on top.


You're going to live up to your handle again.

----------


## Nathan F

> I have got a M7 in 1:9 twist and it loves the Hornady 55 SP which is handy as I have got heaps. I am looking at getting another 223 and the Tikka T3x is the current favourite,  @Nathan F love your one mate  How are these with the 55 grain in the faster twist? Anyone using this combo?


I got mine specifically for deer Shamus . Im working on 69gn and 77gn loads at the moment. I do have some 50 and 60g projectiles for stuff around the house but wont be fussy with that. Will prob just load to half of book max and get on with it.

----------


## 300wsm for life

Got my T3 with 55g hornady sp working quite well. Head shot a hind last week at 100mtr. Very satisfying on your own loads. Got some 73g eld m loaded to test groupings, struggling with OAL. The T3 seems to have a short throat so can only load them at 2.42in. Have a waterman Rifle magazine coming to allow me to use the longer bullets. Have a test sample of 69gr target so will see how they go. Is the maker of these a forum member?

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> I have got a M7 in 1:9 twist and it loves the Hornady 55 SP which is handy as I have got heaps. I am looking at getting another 223 and the Tikka T3x is the current favourite,  @Nathan F love your one mate  How are these with the 55 grain in the faster twist? Anyone using this combo?


It could be just my shooting but mine didn't like the 50gr or anything 55gr, I managed to pick up a box of 60 gr hornady white tail which went pretty good.

I have been looking for factory heavier pills but can't seem to get onto them. I might try a trip to Dunedin to check out what they have in the heavier pills in factory loads

----------


## viper

> It could be just my shooting but mine didn't like the 50gr or anything 55gr, I managed to pick up a box of 60 gr hornady white tail which went pretty good.
> 
> I have been looking for factory heavier pills but can't seem to get onto them. I might try a trip to Dunedin to check out what they have in the heavier pills in factory loads


PPU do a 69gr BTHP, might be worth a try.

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> PPU do a 69gr BTHP, might be worth a try.


Ok thanks @viper I will look out for some

----------


## Frogfeatures

> Got my T3 with 55g hornady sp working quite well. Head shot a hind last week at 100mtr. Very satisfying on your own loads. Got some 73g eld m loaded to test groupings, struggling with OAL. The T3 seems to have a short throat so can only load them at 2.42in. Have a waterman Rifle magazine coming to allow me to use the longer bullets. Have a test sample of 69gr target so will see how they go. Is the maker of these a forum member?


If you’re talking about Targex, then yes, Bryn is on the forum.

----------


## Tahr

> Got my T3 with 55g hornady sp working quite well. Head shot a hind last week at 100mtr. Very satisfying on your own loads. Got some 73g eld m loaded to test groupings, struggling with OAL. The T3 seems to have a short throat so can only load them at 2.42in. Have a waterman Rifle magazine coming to allow me to use the longer bullets. Have a test sample of 69gr target so will see how they go. Is the maker of these a forum member?


Yeah, the Tikka mag max's out at 2.3" OAL. A Waterman will fix that. Targex make an 80 grain too.

----------


## 300wsm for life

Yep that's them. Seems auto correct changed to target.

----------


## Tahr

My Savage lightweight is having a makeover.

Out with the old 1/9 well worn skinny barrel and in with a 20" Trueflight 1/8 Tikka profile with flutes.
Gun Smith (a member here) sent me a pic of the new barrel screwed in. Needs to be sand blasted and new bedding job. 
Hopefully be in action before the roar is over.

----------


## TeRei

Nice profile barrel.

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

It looks the part @Tahr

----------


## veitnamcam

65gr game king launched at 3100fps vs young fallow doe at 217y.
Animal ran 10m downhill then tumbeled
In




Out

----------


## veitnamcam

Fawn with no mum. 247y animal dropped on spot legs pumping on its side for a few seconds before death
In




Out



Considerably smaller animal and a touch more range way less meat loss due to drop on spot I think.

----------


## veitnamcam

Large mature doe over 250 y,clean crease shot collected off side leg. Rolled 100plus y down very steep face before coming to rest at the bottom.
In




Out

----------


## veitnamcam

Key point from that being if the animal is likely to tumbel a lot and you want all the meat perhaps best to neck shoot at the atlas joint.

----------


## Nathan F

> Key point from that being if the animal is likely to tumbel a lot and you want all the meat perhaps best to neck shoot at the atlas joint.


They are well conditioned

----------


## veitnamcam

> They are well conditioned


Yep they are.

----------


## 7mmwsm

Nice job of getting the hide off too.

----------


## charliehorse

> Key point from that being if the animal is likely to tumbel a lot and you want all the meat perhaps best to neck shoot at the atlas joint.


Something like these 2 with a 75g eldm


Bullet entered just above the eye on the 2nd one, and did a fair amount of damage

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

Its suprising the damage such a little pill makes, one of mine from the other night broke the solid bone on the front leg plus did numerous other damage

----------


## TeRei

> 65gr game king launched at 3100fps vs young fallow doe at 217y.
> Animal ran 10m downhill then tumbeled
> In
> Attachment 193120
> Attachment 193121
> 
> Out
> Attachment 193122


Strange result with the 65gr Sierra. Dont experience that sorta damage. We have shot 100's with that pill. Just about to use 69gr Targex and expect brutal damage like the 95gr Targex in the 243.

----------


## veitnamcam

> Strange result with the 65gr Sierra. Dont experience that sorta damage. We have shot 100's with that pill. Just about to use 69gr Targex and expect brutal damage like the 95gr Targex in the 243.


Its the tumbeling downhill that does it....see the next one I posted it was half the size and very clean damage wise.

----------


## Tahr

Here it is. I wore it out, so rejuvenated it.
  @Jaco Goosen on here did the smithing with a fluted 20" true flight 1:8 barrel. I went up a contour from the Savage Lightweight barrel to Tikka contour. It brought the weight up to 6.5lb bare, but wow it shoots. Jaco also re-bedded it nicely too

Tonight I fired a dozen shots using ammo loaded for the old barrel. 69 grn Targex and 69 Sierra Tipped averaged a bit over .5" for 3 shots. One single group with 77 grn Sierra Tipped loaded to just touch the lands of the new barrel went .75" with one flyer that might have been me. Pretty damned cool.

And to cap it after 12 shots, using Hoppes, there is no sign of copper. Jaco said that it looked a perfect barrel through the bore 'scope.

It isn't cheap this re-barreling thing but Im pretty damned delighted with the out come.

And, and, to double cap it off I'm baby sitting a Wairarapa sheep station for the owner for a few days and the Fallow are croaking here  :Have A Nice Day:   :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## 25/08IMP

> Here it is. I wore it out, so rejuvenated it.
>   @Jaco Goosen on here did the smithing with a fluted 20" true flight 1:8 barrel. I went up a contour from the Savage Lightweight barrel to Tikka contour. It brought the weight up to 6.5lb bare, but wow it shoots. Jaco also re-bedded it nicely too
> 
> Tonight I fired a dozen shots using ammo loaded for the old barrel. 69 grn Targex and 69 Sierra Tipped averaged a bit over .5" for 3 shots. One single group with 77 grn Sierra Tipped loaded to just touch the lands of the new barrel went .75" with one flyer that might have been me. Pretty damned cool.
> 
> And to cap it after 12 shots, using Hoppes, there is no sign of copper. Jaco said that it looked a perfect barrel through the bore 'scope.
> 
> It isn't cheap this re-barreling thing but Im pretty damned delighted with the out come.
> 
> ...


Nice one Bruce you going to try the 80grn in it.
I hope to have mine next week.

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## Tahr

> Nice one Bruce you going to try the 80grn in it.
> I hope to have mine next week.
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


Yes. I have 300 80grn Targex coming. If they don't work in this I have a long mag for my Tikka. If I die soon and you are the first person at our door there are 2000 .224 projectiles to sort through.  :Have A Nice Day:  In reality that is only 12 more Wallaby trips and a couple of years deer trips and I don't intend to be gone before then  :Have A Nice Day:   :Have A Nice Day:  Sorry.

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## 25/08IMP

> Yes. I have 300 80grn Targex coming. If they don't work in this I have a long mag for my Tikka. If I die soon and you are the first person at our door there are 2000 .224 projectiles to sort through.  In reality that is only 12 more Wallaby trips and a couple of years deer trips and I don't intend to be gone before then   Sorry.


I bloody hope not.
I've also got 300 on the way and 400 69grn.
Say hi to Stu if you see well farm sitting.

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## Tahr

> I bloody hope not.
> I've also got 300 on the way and 400 69grn.
> Say hi to Stu if you see well farm sitting.
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


Im well south of Stu. Down towards Riversdale.

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## 25/08IMP

> Im well south of Stu. Down towards Riversdale.


Ok enjoy your hunting.


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## Steelisreal

> Yes. I have 300 80grn Targex coming. If they don't work in this I have a long mag for my Tikka. If I die soon and you are the first person at our door there are 2000 .224 projectiles to sort through.  In reality that is only 12 more Wallaby trips and a couple of years deer trips and I don't intend to be gone before then   Sorry.


I have a selection of Targex 22 and 6mm projectiles here now - sorting loads for them. They really are beautifully made and we're lucky to have Bryn cranking them out for us!

When you get the 80 grain could we have a nice lineup of them, a 77g TMK and a 69 to see the difference please? Cheers

----------


## Nathan F

@Tahr what’s the bipod on it mate

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## Tahr

> @Tahr what’s the bipod on it mate


Backlanz

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## Tahr

Blooded the new barrel tonight. 69 grn Sierra Tipped. 160 yards. Angled lung shot exited in front of the flank. High shoulder shot dropped him.

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## 25/08IMP

> Blooded the new barrel tonight. 69 grn Sierra Tipped. 160 yards. Angled lung shot exited in front of the flank. High shoulder shot dropped him.
> 
> Attachment 193858


Well done nice buck too

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## viper

@Tahr  , rifle looks great mate, a really nice hunting setup. Enjoy

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## Tahr

You never know what bullets are going to do. This is the 160 yards entrance (above buck) of 69grn Sierra Tip. It was plenty deep enough into the vitals so penetration was ok but the hard resistance of the shoulder mass sure makes a difference. The first shot into the crease was just a pin hole and exited out the flank (or stopped) - when I took the HQ off I could see all of the bruising and blood shock.

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## Black Rabbit

By my little experience with deer encountering in north and south, 223 shall be my choice for multi purpose round, but not for open field.
150 yards max, should have good practices for good shoot placements, 55gr or 65gr is matter but not that necessary for close range.

----------


## Jaco Goosen

Well done Tahr. Beautifull animal and an awesome little gun.  Thanks for having me work on it.

Ps. Thanks for the back straps!

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## 7mm Rem Mag

Just out of curiousity what primers are you guys using in your reloads 223

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## Micky Duck

> Just out of curiousity what primers are you guys using in your reloads 223


small rifle primers cause the other ones dont fit LOL......seriously it matters not a hoot,and in these times of shortages even less than that. use whatever you have got at hand,if you change brand,double check pressure and velocity by all means,but fifty quid to a knob of goat shit your poi and group size wont have changed enough to miss a deer at the sub 150 yard mark.

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## 25/08IMP

> Just out of curiousity what primers are you guys using in your reloads 223


I use federal 

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## 7mm Rem Mag

All I could pick up was cci 450. At least I think thats what I orded. Any good?

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## TLB

> small rifle primers cause the other ones dont fit LOL......seriously it matters not a hoot,and in these times of shortages even less than that. use whatever you have got at hand,if you change brand,double check pressure and velocity by all means,but fifty quid to a knob of goat shit your poi and group size wont have changed enough to miss a deer at the sub 150 yard mark.


Yeah I agree there, I have 4 different types of small rifle primers and have mix matched them several times. For 223 ranges I have not noticed any difference. Might have to check it if you were right on max load for your rifle but other than that just fire away.

----------


## flock

Remington 7.5   supposed to be slightly harder and a bit more flash so more of a magnuim, better for the heavier projectiles.
 I use them for everything and the big plus is they are cheap.

----------


## gimp

CCI 450. Small rifle magnum. Cos I have a lot of them.

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## flock

Found this write up, way back and tried, it worked well.

As for the heavier projectiles H4895 works well for projectiles up to around 77gr but when you go over that use varget, Varget is the best powder for projectiles heavier than 69gr bar none, also a trick with heavy projectiles in a 223 use Remington 7 1/2 primers they burn hotter and help with case fuls of slower powders like Varget.

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## Tahr

> Found this write up, way back and tried, it worked well.
> 
> As for the heavier projectiles H4895 works well for projectiles up to around 77gr but when you go over that use varget, Varget is the best powder for projectiles heavier than 69gr bar none, also a trick with heavy projectiles in a 223 use Remington 7 1/2 primers they burn hotter and help with case fuls of slower powders like Varget.


Depends of the length of the chamber. With a short chamber/OAL 2208 gets very crammed. In my 2 rifles using 80 grn, 2206H has given best velocity and accuracy.

I use Federal primers but I'm not fussed.

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## 7mmsaum

60g Nosler Ballistic Tips @ 3100 fps 



Surgically precise  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Nathan F

No meat damage there .....

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## 7mm Rem Mag

Shot this red spiker through the neck at 125 meters straight down no questions asked using factory hornady 62gr whitetail ammo.

I'm really impressed with this little riffle, if my reloads beat this ammo I will be more than happy.

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## Trout

> Attachment 195932
> 
> Shot this red spiker through the neck at 125 meters straight down no questions asked using factory hornady 62gr whitetail ammo.
> 
> I'm really impressed with this little riffle, if my reloads beat this ammo I will be more than happy.


Nice shooting,the wee 223 does the biz.

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## Micky Duck

well I took its bigger brother out today and the fallow hind at 60 yards wasnt really a huge test,waited till she turned and had neck upright and poked a 50grn ttsx through it....in hole about an inch round...hit the deck and slid half dozen paces back towards me..... popped 2nd in head just to be sure...I dont like being kicked.... nope no meat loss LOL.the eye fillets on home baked bread for lunch were delishimo...2 hours from her grazing till I was grazing on her.

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## 7mm Rem Mag

> well I took its bigger brother out today and the fallow hind at 60 yards wasnt really a huge test,waited till she turned and had neck upright and poked a 50grn ttsx through it....in hole about an inch round...hit the deck and slid half dozen paces back towards me..... popped 2nd in head just to be sure...I dont like being kicked.... nope no meat loss LOL.the eye fillets on home baked bread for lunch were delishimo...2 hours from her grazing till I was grazing on her.


Good stuff mate   :Thumbsup:

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## Tahr

80 grn Targex. 2900 fps. 275 yards. Low shoulder shot. Ran 20 yards.



Bullet recovered from under skin on off side.



In through ribs



Out through ribs

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## 25/08IMP

> 80 grn Targex. 2900 fps. 275 yards. Low shoulder shot. Ran 20 yards.
> 
> Attachment 196088
> 
> Bullet recovered from under skin on off side.
> 
> Attachment 196086
> 
> In through ribs
> ...


Is that with 2208 

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## Tahr

> Is that with 2208 
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


Thats with 24.4 grn 2206H and 22" Tikka. The 2900 is just an estimate extrapolated from the 2837 with the 20" savage.

Tikka is accurate. Checked zero on way out yesterday.

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## Ross Nolan

You have to love those Tikkas. I'm already regretting selling mine.

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## Ground Control

I just found this thread and have been thoroughly entertained and educated  :Thumbsup: 
The .223 is a real favourite of mine .
Keep the photos and updates coming please .

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## Trout

Tikkas are very accurate and repeatable.Just dont let them heat up to much.Good shooting for old eyes Tahr.

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## Tahr

> Tikkas are very accurate and repeatable.Just dont let them heat up to much.Good shooting for old eyes Tahr.


3 of us got 150 wallaby and a couple of elusive quadrupeds (4 afternoons/evenings). All with .223. I shot them out to 375 yds, all with 80 Targex. The others used 55 Hornady (Sako A1 and  Howa). On our way home now.
We have culled a couple of thousand over the last few years.

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## Ground Control

My recent purchased Howa heavy barrel has impressed me with its accuracy with factory ammo .
It either hates a load or loves it with very few in between.
I settled on Fiocchi 60 gn Factory ammo and just went and bought enough to last me quite a few years .
Heres a couple of pics of the final sighting in process , and the final setup of 30mm high at 100m .
After I shot that group I just stopped shooting at paper and wont again until something changes

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## Tahr

80 grain Targex exit. 150 yards. This evening.

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## 7mm Rem Mag

Good stuff @Tahr keep the posts coming, love seeing the mighty 223 at work.

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## Tahr

Above deer in and out.

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## 25/08IMP

> Above deer in and out.
> Attachment 196816
> 
> Attachment 196817


You liking those 80grn then?

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## Ground Control

How fast do you think they would be travelling when they reached the animal at 150 yrds ?

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## 25/08IMP

> How fast do you think they would be travelling when they reached the animal at 150 yrds ?


About 2578fps as I'm loading the same bullet and are 2900 at the muzzle.

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## TeRei

> 80 grain Targex exit. 150 yards. This evening.Attachment 196806


Seriously dead. Bloody hell.

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## rockland

> About 2578fps as I'm loading the same bullet and are 2900 at the muzzle.
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


80 gr .223 at 2900 fps, that is impressive and is hard on the heels of many 80 gr .243 factory loads.

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## 25/08IMP

> 80 gr .223 at 2900 fps, that is impressive and is hard on the heels of many 80 gr .243 factory loads.


Yeah mine maybe closer to 2800 so i may have that wrong didn't have my book 

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## Tahr

> 80 gr .223 at 2900 fps, that is impressive and is hard on the heels of many 80 gr .243 factory loads.


I use the same 80grn load in 2 rifles. My 20 inch savage chronographs at 2837. Haven’t chronoed the 22 inch Tikka but I expect it’s close to 2900.

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## rockland

> I use the same 80grn load in 2 rifles. My 20 inch savage chronographs at 2837. Haven’t chronoed the 22 inch Tikka but I expect it’s close to 2900.


talk dirty to me!

sorry but I have a few .223's and your numbers almost make me want to take up reloading :XD:

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## Tahr

I really pushed the envelope with the 80 Targex and .223 this morning (with a grandson).

330 yards back of the shoulder hit (lung, where I mostly go for with the .223). There was a bit of confusion after the shot because instead of there being just 3 deer 10 scattered all over the show so I lost sight of the one I had fired at.

Another one at the same range presented itself and I dropped that with a spine shot. Long story short and after searching for an hour for the 1st one and giving up, when I dealt to the second one I had hit the same deer twice.   :Have A Nice Day:  

It had run 20 yards with a back of the shoulder hit and was probably dead on its feet but it was going to be a slow kill never the less and a good indication of the limit of these things. At these longer ranges I actually think the 77 grn Sierra tipped performs marginally better (softer I think).



This is the entry after penetrating the rear of the shoulder. I didn't look inside.

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## 25/08IMP

That's good to know the limit 

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## JohnDuxbury

Tahr, what velocity do you have the 69 grain Sierra going from your 20 inch barrel?

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## Tahr

> Tahr, what velocity do you have the 69 grain Sierra going from your 20 inch barrel?


3k

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## the.camo.butcher

Had this Tikka running for couple of years now and it can account for a large number of deer and goats.
Shooting the Belmont made Sierra 77gr HPBT through the 1/8 twist barrel. 
On the list is to cerakote the barrel and maybe shorten it up a tad.
Awesome rifle paired with the nightforce and super accurate.

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## Ground Control

Thought I’d bump this thread up to the top , because it’s one of my favourites.
Anyone done some more .223 stuff of any kind  ?
Also I’m interested in others opinions about velocity/ barrel length for the .223 , I see that there are a few here running shorter barrels ( mainly I suspect to accommodate suppressors) , but my thoughts have turned to trying to ring as much velocity out of the .223 as possible ( no matter what bullet weight) to increase on target performance/ energy ,  because any increase is a benefit with a cartridge as small as the .223 
Id be interested to hear others thoughts on that .

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## 7mm Rem Mag

Yep agree, one of my favourite threads as well. I love the mighty 223 and may not use anything else again if my early experiences are anything to go by.

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## Tahr

> Thought Id bump this thread up to the top , because its one of my favourites.
> Anyone done some more .223 stuff of any kind  ?
> Also Im interested in others opinions about velocity/ barrel length for the .223 , I see that there are a few here running shorter barrels ( mainly I suspect to accommodate suppressors) , but my thoughts have turned to trying to ring as much velocity out of the .223 as possible ( no matter what bullet weight) to increase on target performance/ energy ,  because any increase is a benefit with a cartridge as small as the .223 
> Id be interested to hear others thoughts on that .


Just me, but for an all round .223 I wouldn't want under 20". 20" is the ideal for me (I have 2 20", and a 22"). The folk with shorter barrels always seem to be chasing velocity. My theoretical minimum is 3 K for a 69 grain projectile (that is achievable in some 18" but you never know until you have made the cut). But all of that is just me.

Ive also gravitated towards faster twist barrels so I can use heavier for caliber projectiles. The 80 grain are something else for bucking wind and knocking over, but require a 1:8 barrel.

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## Ground Control

> Just me, but for an all round .223 I wouldn't want under 20". 20" is the ideal for me (I have 2 20", and a 22"). The folk with shorter barrels always seem to be chasing velocity. My theoretical minimum is 3 K for a 69 grain projectile (that is achievable in some 18" but you never know until you have made the cut). But all of that is just me.
> 
> Ive also gravitated towards faster twist barrels so I can use heavier for caliber projectiles. The 80 grain are something else for bucking wind and knocking over, but require a 1:8 barrel.


In my limited experience I would have to agree with you .
I have a 20 inch 1:8 barrel and a 22 inch 1:12 .
I’m leaning towards getting one that is the best of both worlds a 22 inch 1:8
I use Factory ammo ( gave up reloading 10 years ago ) and the true velocity of Factory is never what it says on the box .
My 22 inch barrel is probably only delivering what hand loaders are getting from a 18-19 barrel  :Have A Nice Day:

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## tikka

@Tahr did you long throat your chamber neck to run the 80 grainers? The ballistics look expressive for a 223.

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## Tahr

> @Tahr did you long throat your chamber neck to run the 80 grainers? The ballistics look expressive for a 223.


I told the smith I would use heavier projectiles and he set it up based on his .223 that he uses 69 grn in.  I get touching the lands inside the mag length and plenty of powder space so it is ideal.

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## veitnamcam

I'm getting 3100 with 65gr not sure how long it is probably 20-22".
I want to shorten it so it will fit under the seat in the boat but I'm scared to touch it because it shoots so we'll and I don't really want to lose the velocity either.
I only need to take a couple inches off I think.

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## caberslash

> I'm getting 3100 with 65gr not sure how long it is probably 20-22".
> I want to shorten it so it will fit under the seat in the boat but I'm scared to touch it because it shoots so we'll and I don't really want to lose the velocity either.
> I only need to take a couple inches off I think.


I'd cut the boat instead...  :ORLY:

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## gimp

I'm happy as with my 18.5 inch tube and 80s at 2800, could get closer to 2900 with 2206H but who cares for 50 or 100fps

I had some dud 2208 which was like 200fps slow and those loads still killed stuff fine too

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## Marty Henry

> I'm getting 3100 with 65gr not sure how long it is probably 20-22".
> I want to shorten it so it will fit under the seat in the boat but I'm scared to touch it because it shoots so we'll and I don't really want to lose the velocity either.
> I only need to take a couple inches off I think.


Thought about cutting it off the other end?

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## mikee

> I'm getting 3100 with 65gr not sure how long it is probably 20-22".
> I want to shorten it so it will fit under the seat in the boat but I'm scared to touch it because it shoots so we'll and I don't really want to lose the velocity either.
> I only need to take a couple inches off I think.


you need a bigger boat perhaps??

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## Micky Duck

> I'm getting 3100 with 65gr not sure how long it is probably 20-22".
> I want to shorten it so it will fit under the seat in the boat but I'm scared to touch it because it shoots so we'll and I don't really want to lose the velocity either.
> I only need to take a couple inches off I think.


take it off the other end and fit a slip on recoil pad maybe????

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## veitnamcam

> you need a bigger boat perhaps??


No perhaps about it I do need a bigger boat.

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## 7mmsaum

> No perhaps about it I do need a bigger boat.


Get a stabicraft 2050 or 2100 

Don’t need to touch your rifle then

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## veitnamcam

> Thought about cutting it off the other end?





> take it off the other end and fit a slip on recoil pad maybe????


I do have a shorter stock for it I had on for the son when he was smaller....... :Nose Pick:

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## Micky Duck

well then.....try it for fit in the boat...and pop slip on recoil pad on for useage..... it will be far better to retain what velocity/energy you have got  IF YOU CAN.....

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## Tahr

Pure meat collection for people in need.

200 and 150 yards yards and 80 grn Targex.

Bottom pic not for the squeamish but shows what these things can do.







I had 2 shots so I think there are 2 hits here. The 2nd shot was after it was down but it was flapping around a bit.

----------


## Freezer

Looks like a 270’s been to work . Impressive

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## 7mm Rem Mag

Yep 223 is plenty big enough on deer

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## Ground Control

That’s massive trauma even if it’s two impacts.
I’m trying to work out where you placed the shots on the animal

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## Tahr

> That’s massive trauma even if it’s two impacts.
> I’m trying to work out where you placed the shotson the animal


The holes are exits. It was quite an uphill angle too so the entries are lower than the exits but I was aiming 2/3 up the shoulder and towards the lungs. It wasn't proper broadside but I cant remember the angle.

----------


## ONYVA

After using a 243 for 45 odd years, a year ago I invested in a 223. Over the last 12 months I have shot 7 assorted Sika, over 70 to 145 yards, not one has taken a single step. All with Hornady Whitetail 60gn. The killing power seems to be well in excess of my 243, My favorite rifle at the moment by far.

----------


## the.camo.butcher

Another one for the mighty 223, this yearling look bigger from about 250m away because I didn't have anything to reference it against. Will taste delicious though.

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## charliehorse

@Tahr you might have to shoot them at a ratio of 2:1 if you're blowing holes in them like that.

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## tikka

> Another one for the mighty 223, this yearling look bigger from about 250m away because I didn't have anything to reference it against. Will taste delicious though.
> 
> Attachment 198026


Nice shooting and no meat damage.

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## 7mmwsm

> After using a 243 for 45 odd years, a year ago I invested in a 223. Over the last 12 months I have shot 7 assorted Sika, over 70 to 145 yards, not one has taken a single step. All with Hornady Whitetail 60gn. The killing power seems to be well in excess of my 243, My favorite rifle at the moment by far.


Don't kid yourself that a 60 grain from a 223 has more killing power than a 243. Unless you were using a reduced 243 load.

----------


## 7.62

> Don't kid yourself that a 60 grain from a 223 has more killing power than a 243. Unless you were using a reduced 243 load.


100%. There would be very few scenarios where a 223 outperforms a 243. Perhaps if you were using a hard bullet in the 243 and it was pencilling through with minimal damage. Otherwise, not a chance

----------


## Tahr

> After using a 243 for 45 odd years, a year ago I invested in a 223. Over the last 12 months I have shot 7 assorted Sika, over 70 to 145 yards, not one has taken a single step. All with Hornady Whitetail 60gn. The killing power seems to be well in excess of my 243, My favorite rifle at the moment by far.


There is a good chance that you are taking more care with your shots and placing them better. I know that I do with the .223.

----------


## NRT

This thread got me keen to take the browning micro bolt for a walk ,50 metres high shoulder Hornady 55 grain sp dropped on the spot

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## Tahr

> This thread got me keen to take the browning micro bolt for a walk ,50 metres high shoulder Hornady 55 grain sp dropped on the spot
> 
> Sent from my Nokia X20 using Tapatalk


Good stuff.

----------


## Trout

Nice eater there.

----------


## NRT

> Nice eater there.


A big hind for me normaly shoot blue Mt rats this one south Canterbury

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## 7mm Rem Mag

Well done @NRT enjoy the venison

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## Freezer

@Thar 
Youve had a go with lots of projectiles with good success. 
For a standard action length (Howa mini) where would you recommend starting?  (Bush hunting fallow with max 80m shots over the dog)

----------


## Tahr

> @Thar 
> You’ve had a go with lots of projectiles with good success. 
> For a standard action length (Howa mini) where would you recommend starting?  (Bush hunting fallow with max 80m shots over the dog)


55 grain Hornady or Sierra Game King.

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## Freezer

> 55 grain Hornady or Sierra Game King.


Wow, that’s unexpected.  Fast shock?  Vs the 70-80gr ?

----------


## Walker

Try the 65grn sierra game kings, kills very well out of my ruger ranch rifle.

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## 7mm Rem Mag

Anyone using the 64gr sierra game kings and the 73gr hornady eldm's with AR2206H in their tikka t3 if so how much powder are you using?

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## Micky Duck

> Wow, that’s unexpected.  Fast shock?  Vs the 70-80gr ?


nope..the KISS method......using .223 so 55grn is where its at....if you want to poke 80grns buy a 243 LOL.

----------


## whanahuia

A while back I was given 140 rounds of the cheap highland .223 ammo. Im really impressed with it and maybe its because my rifle likes it, but so far its almost shot for shot on big game.
Friday night and I shot a hind and yearling for the freezer, then as walking back to get the vehicle, I whacked a couple of hares as well.Thats one thing I like about it, I can shoot almost anything with that load and know it will work without being stupid.

----------


## Happy Jack

I took a red stag in the roar with 55gr Gamekings in a 22-250. Admittedly it was at 15m put it still went down.

----------


## woods223

> Wow, thats unexpected.  Fast shock?  Vs the 70-80gr ?


Just got back from overnight hunt. Shot my 14th red for the last 5? weeks all with .223  55gr SP. 3x with handloads using  Hornady SP, the rest Belmont Black ammo with what look to be Hornady 55SP cannelure projectiles. Shot at ranges from 78 to just under 300m. Most dropped on the spot or within 3-4 paces. One I shot on Friday morning, a trotting downhill crossing shot at about 170m made it about 40m before tipping over from a high lung shot.  So no, not unexpected. Like Tahr I've tried various bullet weights but keep gravitating back to 55gr SP because they work. KISS.

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## Tahr

I recommended the 55 because the question was "where to start". 55 is a good place to start 'cos they invariably shoot well and kill good enough. With the right twist there is no doubt 77 & 80 perform a lot better but a lot of people cant be bothered with the fiddling about with powders and loads to get them going.

----------


## Freezer

> I recommended the 55 because the question was "where to start". 55 is a good place to start 'cos they invariably shoot well and kill good enough. With the right twist there is no doubt 77 & 80 perform a lot better but a lot of people cant be bothered with the fiddling about with powders and loads to get them going.


I am extremely fortunate to know the chief fiddler @rambo-6mmrem so fiddling is part of the game. 
So very interested in the 70-80gr info

----------


## Tahr

> I am extremely fortunate to know the chief fiddler @rambo-6mmrem so fiddling is part of the game. 
> So very interested in the 70-80gr info


77 grn Sierra Tipped, 80 grn ELDM, 80 grn Targex are all outstanding. 

2206H or 2208. I use 2206H.

Need 1:8 twist.

Should get circa 2,800 fps from 20" barrel.

----------


## Freezer

Thanks Thar, much appreciated

----------


## Tahr

> Thanks Thar, much appreciated


80 grn Targex ex a Fallow doe at 270 yards. Low shoulder.

----------


## Micky Duck

mate that is PERFECT preformance fro mthe targex,at a fair decent range too.....them wobblies are in for a shock when you arrive.....its plurry chilly down here today,better pack your thermal longjohns.

----------


## Tahr

> mate that is PERFECT preformance fro mthe targex,at a fair decent range too.....them wobblies are in for a shock when you arrive.....its plurry chilly down here today,better pack your thermal longjohns.


Last trip I shot 50 with those 80 grn. None hopped away (if I hit them). Easy to get hits 'cos they fly well in the wind and shoot flat.

----------


## NewbieZAR

> I took a red stag in the roar with 55gr Gamekings in a 22-250. Admittedly it was at 15m put it still went down.


how do they penetrate in body shots? might give them a whirl in my 22 250Ackley

----------


## bumblefoot

I'm finding the 55gr Sierra Game Kings in the Buffalo 223 ammo really good. This is one from the opposite shoulder of a fallow yearling at 346m (used a rangefinder). it held together really well Usually I wouldn't shoot that far with the 223 but had a perfect rest (used a red deer spiker on the front of the bike as a rest !). it was at the same elevation as I was shooting, no wind and a yearling.

----------


## Tahr

55 Game King. 250 (odd) yards. Angled lung shot entrance. Ran 30 yards looking for the shittiest place possible to die. Good sized buck. (these pics are probably repeated back in this thread somewhere.)

Game King is a good bullet. There are 2 types of Sierra 55 grain - make sure that you get the ones labelled Game King.

----------


## TeRei

I have 400 of them to load but my mate is importing 4 packets of 55gr TSX. Wont use anything else. May put them into the triple deuce. Magic pill in 65gr. Looks very dead.

----------


## Micky Duck

@TeRei   do your own research but Ive seen/read reports of the newer TTSX not being anywhere near as good as older batches,its like metallurgy has gone haywire and they arent opening up...keep the speed up and smash shoulder on way in, and all should be good still would be my advice for him.

----------


## TeRei

My 50 year old eyes detects that the wording is 55gr TSX .LOL.  I loaded some 55gr TTSX a while back for my mate. He used words like F...L...O.R........  My ears got chewed. Back on the T7 and a batch of TSX. He was a happy chappy. The next trip 2 on the ground . He turned and gave me a smug look. His X Bolt is so accurate with the TSX.

----------


## TeRei

Micky Duck he took his cousin from America out when he was over here recently . His cousin shot 3 with the TSX. His cousin hunts elk and hence was impressed by the performance of the "tiny" pill. My mate being quick witted and aware the supplies had dwindled put the hard word on to get some sent out from the States. Not aware if there are any 55gr TSX left in NZ for sale.Cough cough there might be a packet some where which will materialise when NZ's fattest crays arrive via a chilly bin.

----------


## Micky Duck

all good bud.....its a strange thing how one pill in a lineup will be so much better than its nearest relatives,when you talking about monos....
I use the 50grn ttsx to good effect in the wee 223   havent really seen alot of difference with the 55grn load..but havent shot bugger all with them either, I DO KNOW when I loaded them by mistake they zipped through wallabies and killed poorly compared to soft nose or varmit pills.... but hardly surprising with the small amount of resistance offered.

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> 2,930fps. 77 grn. 2206H. 21.5"
> 
> 3K, 69grn. 2206H. 20"
> 
> 3,130fps, 64 grn, 2206H. 20"


Hi @Tahr is that 20" grains of powder or the length of your barrel? if its barrel length then how many grains of 2206H are you using?

----------


## Tahr

> Hi @Tahr is that 20" grains of powder or the length of your barrel? if its barrel length then how many grains of 2206H are you using?


Length of barrel. What bullet do you want the load for?

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> Length of barrel. What bullet do you want the load for?


I measured it at 540mm but if you take into account the projectile in it Then perhaps 510mm which I think is 20 inch. It has Fl20 on the barrel and its a standard Tikka laminated stainless.

I loaded some 69gr TMK's with 24.5gr of AR2206H which gives me around 1MOA at 100 metres but feel it could do better as it wondered a bit the further out I shot.

I also want to load 73gr eldm's, I got 1.25MOA at 100 metres with 24gr's of AR2206H the lesser loads were poor but was worried I could be getting near max so am a bit worried about going much more unless someone has a load which is ok.

I also had a wee play with the 64gr sierra game changers but so far no joy there so was hoping you could help with how much powder you are using.

Cheers Adam

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag



----------


## 25/08IMP

> Attachment 200065
> 
> Attachment 200066
> 
> Attachment 200067


I load 25.5 of 2206 behind the 69grn for around 3000fps.

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

----------


## Tahr

> I measured it at 540mm but if you take into account the projectile in it Then perhaps 510mm which I think is 20 inch. It has Fl20 on the barrel and its a standard Tikka laminated stainless.
> 
> I loaded some 69gr TMK's with 24.5gr of AR2206H which gives me around 1MOA at 100 metres but feel it could do better as it wondered a bit the further out I shot.
> 
> I also want to load 73gr eldm's, I got 1.25MOA at 100 metres with 24gr's of AR2206H the lesser loads were poor but was worried I could be getting near max so am a bit worried about going much more unless someone has a load which is ok.
> 
> I also had a wee play with the 64gr sierra game changers but so far no joy there so was hoping you could help with how much powder you are using.
> 
> Cheers Adam


I wonder if your barrel is a 1:12 twist and its not stabalizing them?

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> I wonder if your barrel is a 1:12 twist and its not stabalizing them?


1.8 twist is my barrel

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> I load 25.5 of 2206 behind the 69grn for around 3000fps.
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


Ok thanks, I did fire 3 25.5gr with the 69gr TMK's but I was rushed due to weather conditions and they did group pretty well under the circumstances so I will revisit that load as I feel I'm a bit light with 24.5.

Thanks again

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

The 73gr ELDM's tightened considerably at 24gr of powder compared to 23.5gr so I was thinking about giving it another .2 of a grain to see if that tightens it up some more.

----------


## Micky Duck

24.5grns of 2206h has been my load with 50-55grain projectiles for years......so you definately arent way too light,admittedly I use GI brass/milserp  what is the best group you have managed with this rifle period...... Im beginning to think something else is going on here....

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> 24.5grns of 2206h has been my load with 50-55grain projectiles for years......so you definately arent way too light,admittedly I use GI brass/milserp  what is the best group you have managed with this rifle period...... Im beginning to think something else is going on here....


I shot .8 of an inch with 62gr hornady white tail factory ammo.

----------


## Micky Duck

hmmmmmmm do me a favour mate....check your scope BASES,the rings aswell.... run bit of paper between the barrel and stock to ensure its not touching....
while you have screw driver in your hand ,make sure the action screws are at least firm.
my gut feeling is there is something amis.... EG the factory 55grn stuff SHOULD be under inch...it is in most .223s heck my rifle is lower spec than yours and will pretty much put any load into an inch or less including mixed loads into same group..... something isnt right....

----------


## rewa

> I shot .8 of an inch with 62gr hornady white tail factory ammo.


Try and duplicate that load , same OAL (to ogive) etc, maybe pull one and measure /identify powder projo etc . This worked for me in treble-2 , the 'Round' that is supposedly  the easiest to load for, but was rubbish till I duplicated Privi-ammo that it shot very well with

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> hmmmmmmm do me a favour mate....check your scope BASES,the rings aswell.... run bit of paper between the barrel and stock to ensure its not touching....
> while you have screw driver in your hand ,make sure the action screws are at least firm.
> my gut feeling is there is something amis.... EG the factory 55grn stuff SHOULD be under inch...it is in most .223s heck my rifle is lower spec than yours and will pretty much put any load into an inch or less including mixed loads into same group..... something isnt right....


Ok thanks MD, I'll give it a good once over.

Good advice mate

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> Try and duplicate that load , same OAL (to ogive) etc, maybe pull one and measure /identify powder projo etc . This worked for me in treble-2 , the 'Round' that is supposedly  the easiest to load for, but was rubbish till I duplicated Privi-ammo that it shot very well with


Thank you, thats also good advice

----------


## Micky Duck

> Thank you, thats also good advice


hmm that sounds familiar......set up your seating die using a load that works.....very familiar LOL.

----------


## XR500

> I took a red stag in the roar with 55gr Gamekings in a 22-250. Admittedly it was at 15m put it still went down.


That was my go to when I had a '250. Deer seemed to fall over even before you had finished pulling the trigger. And rabbits were just 'disappeared'. " Oh, must have missed it. Its not here???? Ahhh! is that a kidney hanging in the manuka!"

----------


## Tahr

400 yard wallaby today. 80 grain Targex.

----------


## 25/08IMP

> 400 yard wallaby today. 80 grain Targex.
> 
> Attachment 200946


Tikka or one of the others??

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

----------


## Tahr

> Tikka or one of the others??
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


Tikka

----------


## veitnamcam

> 400 yard wallaby today. 80 grain Targex.
> :O_
> Attachment 200946


You have trimmed up the hair around the exit?
Looks too clean.
Nice opening tho sure to let plenty of light in.
 :Thumbsup:

----------


## Tahr

The thread on here about firing 1 cold clean shot at a plate is great. Mate and I did it this morning at 300 yards. 8" plate prone (I used a bipod), mate over his pack. Mate's shot was spot on for elevation and 1 moa right. No wind.

Mine was perfect for windage and 3.5" low. 80 grn Targex. I expected that 'cos it was sighted at 1" high at 100 to fit with other loads I use. So I wound it up .75moa to make it 1.75" high at 100 and went hunting (Ive just been making the adjustment by aiming a bit higher when dialling up to now).

I was hunting wallaby but I spied a couple of fallow ...

425 yards. No wind. Wonderfully clean air so a good sight picture. Solid bi-pod rest. I dialled in the full validated elevation. Allowed about a foot for a light easterly.  Broadside. I had waited so that it was reasonably clear of the cover so I could track it at the shot.

It appeared un-hit and ran straight up hill 20 metres and then started doing the side ways gallop thing down hill and tipped over.

Hit in behind the crease angling up, and full penetration. Perfect for elevation. The bullet left a good hole through the off ribs and then broke up.

So thanks to the "plate" thread I got motivated to properly validate and dial in the rifle and it did the deed very well.

----------


## andyanimal31

> The thread on here about firing 1 cold clean shot at a plate is great. Mate and I did it this morning at 300 yards. 8" plate prone (I used a bipod), mate over his pack. Mate's shot was spot on for elevation and 1 moa right. No wind.
> 
> Mine was perfect for windage and 3.5" low. 80 grn Targex. I expected that 'cos it was sighted at 1" high at 100 to fit with other loads I use. So I wound it up .75moa to make it 1.75" high at 100 and went hunting (Ive just been making the adjustment by aiming a bit higher when dialling up to now).
> 
> I was hunting wallaby but I spied a couple of fallow ...
> 
> 425 yards. No wind. Wonderfully clean air so a good sight picture. Solid bi-pod rest. I dialled in the full validated elevation. Allowed about a foot for a light easterly.  Broadside. I had waited so that it was reasonably clear of the cover so I could track it at the shot.
> 
> It appeared un-hit and ran straight up hill 20 metres and then started doing the side ways gallop thing down hill and tipped over.
> ...


Like you thar, validation and zero. seen peacocks up on the farm when checking a .22.
Went and pulled the 204 out of the safe then remembered I had put another scope on but not zeroed. 
Sorted that and went and checked on peacocks but they had wondered off.
Seen a magpie at 405m.
Did the kestrel dance and vaporized that!
Last week got a big peacock at 715m ist round with the 6.5 as well.
Zeroed and validated rifles are a treat to use!

Sent from my SM-A226B using Tapatalk

----------


## Tahr

> You have trimmed up the hair around the exit?
> Looks too clean.
> Nice opening tho sure to let plenty of light in.


Nah. I won't touch the things except I turned it over with my foot. That side was laying on the snow though so that might have affected it.

----------


## mawzer308

Shot this sika hind right on last light 2 weeks ago,with the 75gr eldm at 150m, ran about 20m and collapsed. The 75gr eldm have been very reliable and consistent so far.

----------


## Marty Henry

The dog looks like he's wearing a goose decoy. (-:

----------


## mawzer308

Haha yeah, wife made a wee warm coat for her, was very cold, back to the hut at 1830 and it had already begun to freeze.

----------


## the.camo.butcher

Took this yearling last week, shot with a 77gr at 200m. They sure do damage if you forget to shoot neck or head 

Sent from my SM-N970F using Tapatalk

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## Tahr

168 and 154 yard neck shots today, 80 Targex.



Attachment 201283

----------


## rewa

That animal is in superb condition

----------


## yeah_na_missed

> That animal is in superb condition


Debatable...

----------


## Micky Duck

> Debatable...


well its not very healthy now is it....... bet it tastes pluury great.

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## Tahr

> well its not very healthy now is it....... bet it tastes pluury great.



I dropped one off for Andy with the pack.

----------


## Micky Duck

not this time bud....Ive been back n forwards from tarras since saturday...last run tomorrow and weather looks like crap... your meat bag is cleaned and waiting for you next time you coming past.
My Irish workmate with young family was absolutely stoked with last lot of fallow venison I gave him...some from your deer and some from mine.

----------


## Maxx

> 168 and 154 yard neck shots today, 80 Targex.
> 
> Attachment 201281
> 
> Attachment 201283


Nice........but what's that deer doing hanging around up there in that cold, bleak spot?

----------


## Tahr

> Nice........but what's that deer doing hanging around up there in that cold, bleak spot?


They seem to like it. Fallow don't seem to mind the cold.
This pic was taken from where it was. There were more higher up than lower down.

----------


## Nathan F

> They seem to like it. Fallow don't seem to mind the cold.
> This pic was taken from where it was. There were more higher up than lower down.
> 
> Attachment 201364


What are you poacher's doing in the south island anyways?

----------


## 257weatherby

> I dropped one off for Andy with the pack.



Look what I found in my garage!, if I'd known it was this easy I'd have given this hunting carry on a crack ages ago. Half a dozen people with their hands up for different bits, just spreading the goodwill, outside into the sun to break down, neighbor looks over fence and gets handed a big fat back steak   :Thumbsup:

----------


## Tahr

> Attachment 201371
> Look what I found in my garage!, if I'd known it was this easy I'd have given this hunting carry on a crack ages ago. Half a dozen people with their hands up for different bits, just spreading the goodwill, outside into the sun to break down, neighbor looks over fence and gets handed a big fat back steak


Excellent

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## Tahr

> What are you poacher's doing in the south island anyways?


We just watch the forecast. If snow is predicted we know the coast is clear 'cos all you SI lot will be wrapped up warm by the fire  :Have A Nice Day:   :Have A Nice Day:

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## Marty Henry

Have you left anything @Tahr?  Im there next week and was hoping for a bit of shooting

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## Tahr

> Have you left anything @Tahr?  Im there next week and was hoping for a bit of shooting


 @Marty Henry You will be just fine. They are still making them  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Tahr

Clean cold bore shooting today. Prone, bipod, no rear support. Model 7. 100 yards.

First 2 shots 52 grn Targex. 3rd shot on top 3" cross 60 grn Hammer Hunter.

Well happy. Dialed it up 1.5" for both loads to be dead on at 200 yards. Tomorrow, deer with the 60 grn Hammer maybe.

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## TeRei

> Attachment 201371
> Look what I found in my garage!, if I'd known it was this easy I'd have given this hunting carry on a crack ages ago. Half a dozen people with their hands up for different bits, just spreading the goodwill, outside into the sun to break down, neighbor looks over fence and gets handed a big fat back steak


Like the police officer many many years ago who pulled over a ute which had exited the Onga pub loaded with deer and pigs. Boys full and good mood. Officer have you ever seen such fat and juicy pigs. Officer looks around and seeing no other cars opens his boot. A fat pig is deposited and the parties seperate without another word spoken.Life was so different.

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## JoshC

This stag and five others tonight didnt know what hit them. This fella was solid. Just using 55gn hornady sp out of my 14.5 inch A-bolt. Longest shot tonight approx 180m.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Tahr

> This stag and five others tonight didn’t know what hit them. This fella was solid. Just using 55gn hornady sp out of my 14.5 inch A-bolt. Longest shot tonight approx 180m.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That stag looks in good nic. A tree eater I guess?

----------


## Tahr

Well that was fun. The 60 grain Hammer Hunters seem to work. Im pushing them at about 3100 fps with 2208. All around the 200 yards. 2 broadside chest shots, and one head on into chest. The head on one copped 2 'cos he was dallying around a bit. It will be interesting to see the damage when I break them down.

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## JoshC

> That stag looks in good nic. A tree eater I guess?


Shot him in a tree block, but hes living in the native and has winter crop paddocks a stones throw away. Was in very good condition 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Tahr

I broke the 3 deer from yesterday down today. Nothing exceptional about the damage or performance from the very expensive 60 grn Hammer bullets. No pass throughs which surprised me. Only minimal petal damage. While they are "good enough" in .223 ( because they all died) based on my sample of 3 I don't think they are better than the 80 ELDM, 77 Sierra Tipped or 80 grn Targex. And not much better than the common cup and core 55 grn.

On the other hand they are exceptional in my 6.5 prc and .270wsm.

----------


## kukuwai

And here is me in the local today...spotted a nice looking .308.....

When really what I need to contribute to this thread is a .223 



Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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## Micky Duck

> I broke the 3 deer from yesterday down today. Nothing exceptional about the damage or performance from the very expensive 60 grn Hammer bullets. No pass throughs which surprised me. Only minimal petal damage. While they are "good enough" in .223 ( because they all died) based on my sample of 3 I don't think they are better than the 80 ELDM, 77 Sierra Tipped or 80 grn Targex. And not much better than the common cup and core 55 grn.
> 
> On the other hand they are exceptional in my 6.5 prc and .270wsm.


maybe they are a shorter range/higher velocity type load....bugga they didnt work so well,but now at least you know...

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## Tahr

> maybe they are a shorter range/higher velocity type load....bugga they didnt work so well,but now at least you know...


I expect that the 52 grain going faster might have been better.

----------


## Micky Duck

hmm so pretty much in line with barnes projectiles then..... I really rate the wee 50 grainers ,but I wont use .223 on anything big past 150 yards.

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## Ground Control

Has anyone played with the Hornady 75gn ELD Match projectiles on Game ?

----------


## Tahr

> Has anyone played with the Hornady 75gn ELD Match projectiles on Game ?


Someone quoted using them above. I’m sure they will be very door. The 80grn eldm are excellent.

----------


## TLB

> Has anyone played with the Hornady 75gn ELD Match projectiles on Game ?


Yup, they are awesome. One of the better ones I have tried!

----------


## Ground Control

> I’m sure they will be very door.


Very Door ?

Auto correct must have stepped in , did you mean “ Poor or Good “

----------


## Tahr

> Very Door ?
> 
> Auto correct must have stepped in , did you mean “ Poor or Good “


Good.

----------


## Tahr

Even the 52grn eldm work ok. I’ve shot the odd deer with them when doing wallaby. Neck and lung shots. I think there is a pic of a neck shot one in this thread.

----------


## Ground Control

> Good.


Excellent news ,

Projectiles in the heavier weights are hard to come by here at the moment, but I’ve got onto a few boxes of the 75gn .
If they are hopeless I’ll blame you  :Thumbsup:

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> Has anyone played with the Hornady 75gn ELD Match projectiles on Game ?


I have a box of 73gr I'm loading at the moment, I will keep posted once I start using them on game.

----------


## TLB

> Excellent news ,
> 
> Projectiles in the heavier weights are hard to come by here at the moment, but I’ve got onto a few boxes of the 75gn .
> If they are hopeless I’ll blame you


If you find them not to your liking I'll happily relieve you of the burden  :ORLY:

----------


## charliehorse

> Has anyone played with the Hornady 75gn ELD Match projectiles on Game ?


We tipped over 5 fallow earlier this year with them. Did the job no sweat.

----------


## Ground Control

> Yup, they are awesome. One of the better ones I have tried!


Accuracy or Performance on Game .
Or Both ?

----------


## Ground Control

> We tipped over 5 fallow earlier this year with them. Did the job no sweat.



Did you recover any projectiles?

----------


## Kelton

> Did you recover any projectiles?



They should behave like the eldm earlier in this thread theres examples of the 80eldm pulled from Tahr and red deer from memory

Edit the ones Im referring to were  80gn not 75gn my bad but worth a look

----------


## gimp

I've shot something like 20 odd deer including red stags and a few other species with the 80gr ELDM and they work great for performance on animals and accuracy, no reason the 75s wouldn't be identical in performance, I have no intention of changing bullets in my .223 or taking the 6.5 out of the safe

----------


## charliehorse

> Did you recover any projectiles?


All went through, 1 head,  2 neck, 1 high shoulder and another shoulder I think....? Actually I think we may have got some of the jacket back on the shoulder. I can hardly remember last week let alone back into March.

----------


## Ground Control

> I've shot something like 20 odd deer including red stags and a few other species with the 80gr ELDM and they work great for performance on animals and accuracy, no reason the 75s wouldn't be identical in performance, I have no intention of changing bullets in my .223 or taking the 6.5 out of the safe


 :Thumbsup: 
I bought 300 of the 75gn eldm yesterday after Tahr responded to my post .
It will be interesting to see how they work and also how long I can load them in my 1-8 twist Howa 1500 , not the mini , but the SA version with the internal Mag .
I havent loaded for that rifle yet so have no idea what length will cycle through the Mag and also throat dimensions etc . 
Ill have a measure up next week when I get home .
Will be using Fiocchi brass , 2206H and CCI primers

----------


## gimp

You will need to single load, modify the magazine or get a different mag system. The 75/80 ELDMs are too long to fit a standard 2.25" OAL .223 mag without the ogive of the bullet being inside the neck.

----------


## Ground Control

> You will need to single load, modify the magazine or get a different mag system. The 75/80 ELDMs are too long to fit a standard 2.25" OAL .223 mag without the ogive of the bullet being inside the neck.


Bugger  :Oh Noes: 

Anyone know how long the internal mag box is in a Howa 1500 SA ?
I’m not home at the moment to measure .
Single loading is not an option for me .

----------


## gimp

77gr TMK would be an alternative that fits a standard (short) mag length.

----------


## gimp

I believe you can probably modify the howa mag and move the internal block to get a bit more length.

----------


## Tahr

> Bugger 
> 
> Anyone know how long the internal mag box is in a Howa 1500 SA ?
> Im not home at the moment to measure .
> Single loading is not an option for me .


If you can get them te 77 grain Sierra Malc Tipped are designed for short mags and shoot just fine at 2.3" OAL. They devastate deer.

(whoops, gimp as said this already)

----------


## Steelisreal

> Bugger 
> 
> Anyone know how long the internal mag box is in a Howa 1500 SA ?
> I’m not home at the moment to measure .
> Single loading is not an option for me .


From memory it was around 2.300" or so. As Gimp says you can do a little D.I.Y. and relocate the magazine block further back. At the same time you remove a little off the bolt stop and the back edge of the feed rails and you're done. 

I have pictures that I will track down.

----------


## Ground Control

> I believe you can probably modify the howa mag and move the internal block to get a bit more length.


I was just thinking about .
Do you have any idea what the shortest OAL of a loaded cartridge is with full neck contact of the 75 eldm ?

----------


## Steelisreal

> From memory it was around 2.300" or so. As Gimp says you can do a little D.I.Y. and relocate the magazine block further back. At the same time you remove a little off the bolt stop and the back edge of the feed rails and you're done. 
> 
> I have pictures that I will track down.

----------


## Steelisreal

I just worked out I don't have pictures of it once modified. The extra 'block' piece in the magazine just needs a couple of slots made for it with a Dremel cutting disc in the middle of the radius at the back of the magazine box. The excess folded over part that occupies the back of the magazine needs trimming back to make it sit correctly once the locating slots have been moved rearwards.

The feed rails possibly need the radius portion at the rear extended so the cartridges don't get misaligned. 

**IMPORTANT** Before anyone gets on my case about this, yes I know it's voids any warranty. Anyone who does this to their rifle will void their warranty as well. I'm more than happy to have done this work to my own rifle - if you're not, give it to a reputable gunsmith.

----------


## Ground Control

Did I read somewhere in the thread that the 73gn eldm projectiles are a better choice for using in a standard length magazine, or did I dream that ?
I rang the gunshop and can swap the 75’s for 73’s without to much hassle.

----------


## gimp

I believe 73s are designed to work in standard shorter mag lengths.

----------


## Ground Control

> I believe 73s are designed to work in standard shorter mag lengths.


 :Thumbsup: 

I’ve been doing some research today and I think you’re right .
I’ve swapped the 75’s for the 73’s , the Shop didn’t care .

----------


## caberslash

@Ground Control 

Waters Rifleman do a 'drop in' AICS kit for the Howa 1500, should make it possible to shoot 2.4"+ COAL .223 rounds:

----------


## Ground Control

Thanks for that .
At the moment I want to keep the internal magazine, but it’s good to know that there is that option available.
I just don’t like Magazines that protrude down out of the Stock .
They always annoy me when carrying the rifle and I never shoot more than a couple or three rounds when hunting so extra capacity isn’t a requirement.
The 73 gn eldm’s should do everything I’m after and the reduced BC compared to the 75 gn eldm doesn’t worry me any because I won’t be shooting further tham 300 anyway.
I’m just chasing a heavier projectile for Game shooting, not long range target shooting.

----------


## caberslash

> Thanks for that .
> At the moment I want to keep the internal magazine, but it’s good to know that there is that option available.
> I just don’t like Magazines that protrude down out of the Stock .
> They always annoy me when carrying the rifle and I never shoot more than a couple or three rounds when hunting so extra capacity isn’t a requirement.
> The 73 gn eldm’s should do everything I’m after and the reduced BC compared to the 75 gn eldm doesn’t worry me any because I won’t be shooting further tham 300 anyway.
> I’m just chasing a heavier projectile for Game shooting, not long range target shooting.


For 300m and in, I'd just run standard 55 grain SP rounds.

If you want to do further research, hit up Google and put in ' scenarshooter 220 swift 24hourcampfire ' and '  Formidilosus 77 tmk '  

The former has killed a ton of black bears with 55 grain SP's and the later loves 77 TMK's for elk out of a Tikka.

Personally would always choose a single stack AICS style mag if feeding longer than SAMMI spec rounds. Much harder to fuck up feeding them vs a double stacked floorplate.

----------


## gimp

> Formidilosus 77 tmk



It's worth noting that while the 77 TMK seems to work great, it appears from threads on other forums that this dude potentially has made up a lot of the stuff he posts on the internet

----------


## dannyb

> It's worth noting that while the 77 TMK seems to work great, it appears from threads on other forums that this dude potentially has made up a lot of the stuff he posts on the internet


Bunji returns ?  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

----------


## TeRei

> It's worth noting that while the 77 TMK seems to work great, it appears from threads on other forums that this dude potentially has made up a lot of the stuff he posts on the internet


Lacking a bit of powder upstairs? LOL.

----------


## Southerner223

Finally got around to load developing mine, been busy on my other rifles which are proving difficult. 

69gr targex, over 2206H. 2790fps average. Job done, time to mass produce 90x and bring home some free range critters

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> 18" = 2800 with 80gr, loaded long. 25gr 2208. Could probably get more out of it


 @gimp have you tried AR 2206H with those 80gr ELDM's? I see you use 25gr of 2208 but was wondering what that may convert to using 2206H.

Also what primers are you using?

Thanks Adam

----------


## gimp

Yeah kiwi Greg tried 2206H when developing loads and it was closer to 2900 at max, didn't get as good accuracy tho

I'm using CCI450s

----------


## Tahr

Last evening. 150 yds. 80 grn Targex (powder H2206). 
Point of shoulder heart shot.

----------


## Freezer

> Last evening. 150 yds. 80 grn Targex (powder H2206). 
> Point of shoulder heart shot.
> 
> Attachment 203198


Gosh I love that hut

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> Yeah kiwi Greg tried 2206H when developing loads and it was closer to 2900 at max, didn't get as good accuracy tho
> 
> I'm using CCI450s


Thanks for that info mate

----------


## Tahr

> Gosh I love that hut


  @Freezer the stove going full bore last night cooking dinner.

----------


## Trout

Youd be walking around in your shorts in there tahr.A glowing flu makes a hut very warm.

----------


## Dama dama

> Attachment 202729
> 
> Finally got around to load developing mine, been busy on my other rifles which are proving difficult. 
> 
> 69gr targex, over 2206H. 2790fps average. Job done, time to mass produce 90x and bring home some free range critters


What rifle and barrel length? Very similar load to what I have for my Howa Mini.  Mine 0.2gr less, but haven't really mucked around too much with it yet.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> @Freezer the stove going full bore last night cooking dinner.
> 
> Attachment 203199


  @Tahr, It is a few years since I was installing Log burners. Looking at yours and not being able to tell exactly the distances from a photo, it does look a bit close to a combustible surface - that being the ply. For an unshielded fire like a Pot belly the offset is something like 90cm. 
As your flue is unshielded ( no reflector ) the ply behind it is likely hotter than is safe. Wood will get dryer and dryer until a point where it combusts easily. From memory the surface cannot exceed 90 degrees, but I think that is of a non combustible surface.
A simple and tidy solution is to run a couple of sheets of baby iron up the two walls behind mounted on Rondo battens with airflow allowed by gapping the iron off the floor and leaving a gap at the top. My guess is that a camping type burner like that doesnt come with an install spec ?

----------


## Tahr

> @Tahr, It is a few years since I was installing Log burners. Looking at yours and not being able to tell exactly the distances from a photo, it does look a bit close to a combustible surface - that being the ply. For an unshielded fire like a Pot belly the offset is something like 90cm. 
> As your flue is unshielded ( no reflector ) the ply behind it is likely hotter than is safe. Wood will get dryer and dryer until a point where it combusts easily. From memory the surface cannot exceed 90 degrees, but I think that is of a non combustible surface.
> A simple and tidy solution is to run a couple of sheets of baby iron up the two walls behind mounted on Rondo battens with airflow allowed by gapping the iron off the floor and leaving a gap at the top. My guess is that a camping type burner like that doesnt come with an install spec ?Attachment 203252


I will measure the distance from the flu to the wall. I did put my and on the ply and it was only just warm.

It came from China. No specs.

----------


## Freezer

They are a tent stove, so adapting to a hut is certainly going to need common sense to be safe.  Pretty sure Thar has that in spades. 
Good points about distances, perhaps pop a reflector on the flue or a couple sheets tin on the wall?

----------


## Ground Control

Just finished working on a load with Hornady  60gn V Max bullets / 2206H powder and now want to load some Hornady 73gn eldm .
The ADI website suggests for a 70 gn bullet starting at 23gn and a max of 25gn ( 2206H powder ) , and for the 75gn bullet 22.5gn- 24.5gn 
Logic would say in the middle of these recommendations would be correct for the 73gn , is that correct ?
Any advice would be appreciated.

----------


## Micky Duck

heck I use 24.5-25grns wit ha 55grn and consider it hot enough..... its your rifle,your eyes n hands next to it... but yip your calculations look correct.

----------


## Micky Duck

if you use data for the weight ABOVE the weight you have...you will be fine.

----------


## Tahr

Sick of the rain and being cooped up inside...its been 2 days  :Have A Nice Day:   Im packed and ready for a night away tomorrow. .223 is ready.

----------


## grandpamac

> Just finished working on a load with Hornady  60gn V Max bullets / 2206H powder and now want to load some Hornady 73gn eldm .
> The ADI website suggests for a 70 gn bullet starting at 23gn and a max of 25gn ( 2206H powder ) , and for the 75gn bullet 22.5gn- 24.5gn 
> Logic would say in the middle of these recommendations would be correct for the 73gn , is that correct ?
> Any advice would be appreciated.


The 70 grain Speer is a very blunt projectile that has to be seated deep so you would be better to use the 69 grain Sierra for your comparison. You would be lucky to get much more than 24.5 grains of AR2206H in the case without compression depending on mag and throat length.
GPM.

----------


## Tahr

> Just finished working on a load with Hornady  60gn V Max bullets / 2206H powder and now want to load some Hornady 73gn eldm .
> The ADI website suggests for a 70 gn bullet starting at 23gn and a max of 25gn ( 2206H powder ) , and for the 75gn bullet 22.5gn- 24.5gn 
> Logic would say in the middle of these recommendations would be correct for the 73gn , is that correct ?
> Any advice would be appreciated.


 @Ground Control what is your internal mag length (i.e. the longest OAL that will fit). In imperial for this old guy please.

----------


## Ground Control

> @Ground Control what is your internal mag length (i.e. the longest OAL that will fit). In imperial for this old guy please.


2.32 in ( 58.92 mm )
That is the max length that feeds and functions reliability through my internal mag .

----------


## Micky Duck

> The 70 grain Speer is a very blunt projectile that has to be seated deep so you would be better to use the 69 grain Sierra for your comparison. You would be lucky to get much more than 24.5 grains of AR2206H in the case without compression depending on mag and throat length.
> GPM.


that mere 24.5grns of AR2206h is all some of us...well ME ...have used for over 20 years with 50-55grn projectiles and have NEVER once considered it underpowered.

----------


## TeRei

> Sick of the rain and being cooped up inside...its been 2 days   Im packed and ready for a night away tomorrow. .223 is ready.
> 
> Attachment 203453


Interesting placement for your torch. Too far forward? Tried that but couldn't see thru scope.

----------


## Tahr

> Interesting placement for your torch. Too far forward? Tried that but couldn't see thru scope.


Turret is too high to be behind it. Works ok. Mainly wallaby and they are usually quite close.

----------


## TeRei

We await with bated breath the next instalment of death by foto. LOL.

----------


## Tahr

> 2.32 in ( 58.92 mm )
> That is the max length that feeds and functions reliability through my internal mag .


My Load for 69 grain Targex in the same size mag length as yours is 25.2grns of 2206H. Compressed load but not overly so. 

If you are using 73grn eldm 23grns would be a safe place to start.

----------


## Tahr

> We await with bated breath the next instalment of death by foto. LOL.


Its time you bought yourself a foto taker and joined in.  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## MSL

> Its time you bought yourself a foto taker and joined in.


The correct term is photo grabber as my German friend used to say.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## 7mmwsm

You don't have to buy these new fangled foto machines. I remember making them at school in the seventies (back when they taught you good stuff, like if you play up you get a stick around your backside) out of a cardboard box and a bit of insulation tape. Might want to use waterproof cardboard for a outdoorsy model though.

----------


## MSL

> You don't have to buy these new fangled foto machines. I remember making them at school in the seventies (back when they taught you good stuff, like if you play up you get a stick around your backside) out of a cardboard box and a bit of insulation tape. Might want to use waterproof cardboard for a outdoorsy model though.


Black corflute for the water resistant version


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## flock

Just use your phone, tricky bit is transfering to computer, heaps of ways find the easiest.

----------


## flock

Using    microsoft phone link   , is the easiest for me.  Google it there is videos about it.

----------


## Ross Nolan

> Black corflute for the water resistant version
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you use cardboard wrapped in insulation tape you can reuse the tape for muzzle tape, closing up knife whoopsies and all sorts of useful stuff.

19th century solutions for 21st century problems.

----------


## Tahr

157 yds with 60 grain Hammer. Just a little guy.

----------


## Trout

> Just use your phone, tricky bit is transfering to computer, heaps of ways find the easiest.
> Attachment 203485


Thats a good time to try some long range target shooting.No wind.

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

Nice wee eater @Tahr well done

----------


## 25/08 IMP

Just been and sighted in a new to me Tikka .223 shooting 80 grn and 69 grn Targex with 2206 barrel length is 18" 

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

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## TeRei

> Just been and sighted in a new to me Tikka .223 shooting 80 grn and 69 grn Targex with 2206 barrel length is 18" 
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


What is that stock compared to the standard one. More comfortable? Curious. They look nice.

----------


## 25/08 IMP

> What is that stock compared to the standard one. More comfortable? Curious. They look nice.


It's the Aspire with a higher comb better scope alignment 

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

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## 7mm Rem Mag

> Just been and sighted in a new to me Tikka .223 shooting 80 grn and 69 grn Targex with 2206 barrel length is 18" 
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


How many grains of 2206 did you use with the 80gr slug?

Impressive group

----------


## 25/08 IMP

> How many grains of 2206 did you use with the 80gr slug?
> 
> Impressive group


I think its 24.5 ill check tonight it would have been a great 5 shot group if i hadn't pulled one a bit.
But I'm happy as it was just shooting prone off a bipod.

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

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## 7mm Rem Mag

> I think its 24.5 ill check tonight it would have been a great 5 shot group if i hadn't pulled one a bit.
> But I'm happy as it was just shooting prone off a bipod.
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


Thanks for that, I have loaded 23gr, 23.5gr and 24gr of 2206H with the 80gr ELDM's to give a crack next time I'm at the range.

Cheers Adam

----------


## Ground Control

Finally got around to shooting some 73gn elm load tests today , it was a quick session at first light .
These were just shot over the bonnet of the Ute with a bipod and jacket rolled up under the Butt of the stock .
I wasn't at my usual spot where I shoot so didn't have my usual setup .

The flyer's were mainly me I'll admit , but I'm happy to work with these results .
The 23.7gn load was the heaviest powder charge I loaded for in this test and there is zero pressure sign's so will keep upping the powder and see if it tightens up .
The group top centre is my chosen 60gn VMax load and the problem was me not the ammo in this case , I was struggling to get a good shooting position with this first group and this load usually shoots around 14mm-15mm at 100m

----------


## Black Rabbit

I like 223 & 556 even better, and AR platform, bush master is my favorite as well sako85. I shot an old M16 few times which is a Vietnam war capture I think, used standard FMJ 55gr, really nice! And, it was the reason for me wanted a 223, when AR still allowed and when I was in Akl. Very good tool for bush. Personally, I do `t enjoy 7.62x39 even these two bullets are designed for same purpose. I knew some people they use SKS sort for bush hunting, pigs, goats.

----------


## Tahr

80 grain Targex. 20 to 250 yards. All chest - shoulder shot. 5 shots for 4. One high shoulder shot needed a fixer but it wasn't going anywhere.

Breaking them down today so it will be interesting to see the performance on these bigger deer.



I had to do 2 loads on the quad. This was the next day.

----------


## Nathan F

Im surprised that ute could cope with the load more to the point  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Tahr

> Im surprised that ute could cope with the load more to the point


FORD. You should have great empathy  :Have A Nice Day: 

Suits me just fine...

*F*or *O*ld *R*ally *D*rivers

----------


## Ackley

Looks a tiny bit damp there Tahr  Good shooting, should keep the farmer happy
We have the same problem over here 4 gates open on the local dam and the big one up stream at 99% and probably will spill

----------


## csmiffy

Good stuff. It would take me days to choose them up

----------


## Nathan F

> FORD. You should have great empathy 
> 
> Suits me just fine...
> 
> *F*or *O*ld *R*ally *D*rivers


When you finally come to your senses I will be happy to take care of you

----------


## Tahr

> When you finally come to your senses I will be happy to take care of you


 :Have A Nice Day:

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## Micky Duck

back when owned a 1600 sport escort...I believed it was fs off rotary drivers.......

----------


## tiroahunta

> back when owned a 1600 sport escort...I believed it was fs off rotary drivers.......


Fix or repair daily....forever on rubbish dump...maybe....who knows

Sent from my SM-A135F using Tapatalk

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## Tahr

So the 80 grn Targex will gỗ right through a solid hind at 180 yards and a spiker at 250. The performance is very impressive. High SD sure makes a difference to penetration. The 69 grn seldom exit and then only on Fallow (still work though).



Out on the hind



In on the hind

----------


## Howa1500

> So the 80 grn Targex will gỗ right through a solid hind at 180 yards and a spiker at 250. The performance is very impressive. High SD sure makes a difference to penetration. The 69 grn seldom exit and then only on Fallow (still work though).
> 
> Attachment 204590
> 
> Out on the hind
> 
> Attachment 204591
> 
> In on the hind
> ...


coal w/ targex?

----------


## Ground Control

I just received some new projectiles to play with here in Australia .
They are Copper Monolithic bullets made by Outer Edge and they have been recommended to me by a couple of Blokes who shoot Big Pigs with their .223 rifles .
I'm going to assemble some load development rounds and start accuracy testing over the next few weeks ( their advice is to drive them hard )
I have no access to Deer when I'm over here , but Pigs do show their face occasionally on our place when it starts to get wet ( summer ) so thought I'd try to develop a load that will drive it's way through a Pig  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Micky Duck

bizzare...a 51grn pill that needs a 9" twist......... the 50-55grn barnes are happy in a 12" twist.
hopefully they work well for you,Barnes really make the wee cartridge shine sub 150 yards....

----------


## Freezer

> coal w/ targex?


Can you get the 80’s anymore?

----------


## Black Rabbit

> So the 80 grn Targex will gỗ right through a solid hind at 180 yards and a spiker at 250. The performance is very impressive. High SD sure makes a difference to penetration. The 69 grn seldom exit and then only on Fallow (still work though).
> 
> Attachment 204590
> 
> Out on the hind
> 
> Attachment 204591
> 
> In on the hind
> ...


Any suggestion for 223 rifle, except sako85? Thank you. Nice work!! But, all the guts, organs and tendons, how would you like to use or dispose them?

----------


## Ground Control

> bizzare...a 51grn pill that needs a 9" twist......... the 50-55grn barnes are happy in a 12" twist.
> hopefully they work well for you,Barnes really make the wee cartridge shine sub 150 yards....


It will be interesting to see how they fly .
The 57 gn ones are the business for bigger critters according to my advisors.
These projectiles do have a reputation for accuracy though and the company has made inroads into the extreme long range world .
The thing that holds them back is the cost , but each bullet is made on a CNC lathe not punched out of a mould in the thousands per hour .

----------


## Tahr

> coal w/ targex?


Long mag in a Tikka. I will look it up tomorrow. If your mag is under 2.3" (Tikka length) use the 77 grn Sierra TMK.

----------


## Micky Duck

> It will be interesting to see how they fly .
> The 57 gn ones are the business for bigger critters according to my advisors.
> These projectiles do have a reputation for accuracy though and the company has made inroads into the extreme long range world .
> The thing that holds them back is the cost , but each bullet is made on a CNC lathe not punched out of a mould in the thousands per hour .


so where the ones floating around some time back..GS Custom think they were....never heard a bad word muttered about them.

----------


## Tahr

> Can you get the 80s anymore?


No you cant. I don't think Bryn (Targex) will mind me saying that he can't get the Berger jackets for the 80 grn and he doesn't know know when Berger will supply him. But not any time soon. 

I have 200 left and they are now precious. Won't be blazing them at wallaby anymore - will use the 69 grn on them and save the 80's for deer.

Having said this the 80 grn ELDM are back in the retailers and they are pretty good. And I have 200 77 Sierra TMK so personally Im not desperate.

----------


## RUMPY

> Any suggestion for 223 rifle, except sako85? Thank you. Nice work!! But, all the guts, organs and tendons, how would you like to use or dispose them?


Hi @Black Rabbit,  I have a Weatherby Vanguard 223. It shoots very accurately and they are a fairly cheap rifle. I paid 600 for mine second hand. Made in Japan by Howa I think.

----------


## Tahr

> Any suggestion for 223 rifle, except sako85? Thank you. Nice work!! But, all the guts, organs and tendons, how would you like to use or dispose them?


The guts and organs rot on the hill but I always slash the stomach to get the break down going and I always put them in as a discrete place as I can. No matter whether Im on public or private land. I personally don't eat offal.

Often I bone the deer out on the hill and the same as above - everything is left out of sight if I can

When I was selling deer back in the day there was a market for tendons with the dew claws on them so I used to bring them out and dry them to sell. Now it all gets dumped or left on the hill.

The stuff that I take home that is not edible (like skins and bones on whole gutted deer) I put into black plastic rubbish bags and take to the City dump. Sometimes people take some bones for their dogs.

I don't know of a bad brand of .223. From my experience I would choose from a Savage, Howa, CZ, M7 Remington or Tikka. Tikka are the safest choice. Just my opinion. I would choose from those brands because they all have a faster twist. 1:9 or faster. I would go for a 1:8. Then you can shoot lighter and heavier bullets.

----------


## TeRei

> So the 80 grn Targex will gỗ right through a solid hind at 180 yards and a spiker at 250. The performance is very impressive. High SD sure makes a difference to penetration. The 69 grn seldom exit and then only on Fallow (still work though).
> 
> Attachment 204590
> 
> Out on the hind
> 
> Attachment 204591
> 
> In on the hind
> ...


The 95gr for 243 will blow your mind.A sensational pill.

----------


## Black Rabbit

> Hi @Black Rabbit,  I have a Weatherby Vanguard 223. It shoots very accurately and they are a fairly cheap rifle. I paid 600 for mine second hand. Made in Japan by Howa I think.


Thank you! Yeah, I heard Japanese does make rifle and parts with their high quality steel and machining quality, but only two types bolt action are selling in Japan for deer hunting.

----------


## Black Rabbit

> The guts and organs rot on the hill but I always slash the stomach to get the break down going and I always put them in as a discrete place as I can. No matter whether Im on public or private land. I personally don't eat offal.
> 
> Often I bone the deer out on the hill and the same as above - everything is left out of sight if I can
> 
> When I was selling deer back in the day there was a market for tendons with the dew claws on them so I used to bring them out and dry them to sell. Now it all gets dumped or left on the hill.
> 
> The stuff that I take home that is not edible (like skins and bones on whole gutted deer) I put into black plastic rubbish bags and take to the City dump. Sometimes people take some bones for their dogs.
> 
> I don't know of a bad brand of .223. From my experience I would choose from a Savage, Howa, CZ, M7 Remington or Tikka. Tikka are the safest choice. Just my opinion. I would choose from those brands because they all have a faster twist. 1:9 or faster. I would go for a 1:8. Then you can shoot lighter and heavier bullets.


Thank you for these details, I will keep it mind. My plan for 223 rifle is something actually has an iron sight on it. Good hunt!! Looking forward to your next :Thumbsup:  and may some day later will bother you again for those deer parts.  :Psmiley:

----------


## TARGEX

Hi everyone, what "tahr" said is right, I am out of the jackets I need to make the 80gr.224 bullets now & it is a waiting game till more jackets are available.
That could happen in a couple of months or six months, totally out of my control. Just have to wait till Bergers have more of the J4 jackets I need.
I still have jackets for the .224 69gr I make.
Most of the other bullets I make are available except for the 95gr .243 which I am also waiting for more jackets to be able to make them.
This is partly due to the shortages but it is also a thing I always have to deal with as the cost of jackets is high & to be able to make all the bullets I make I have to carry a lot of different jackets (money invested in other words) & I can only afford to carry so much.
Also for the 6.5 people out there I am still working on those & waiting for a punch I need to arrive from the States (its on its way), Once I am completely happy with their performance, they will be available. I won't be selling them in big lots to just see them being used on trade me to rip someone off.
Thanks for being patient & I'll do the best I can to keep those that want them supplied & hopefully hunting /shooting.
Cheers

----------


## Tahr

> coal w/ targex?


 @Howa1500

80 grn Targex 1.976" to ogive. That's 20 thou off lands. Rifle is a Tikka. Waters extended mag.

----------


## DeonK

> so where the ones floating around some time back..GS Custom think they were....never heard a bad word muttered about them.


 GS Custom Bullets really good. Use them mostly back in SA. I e mailed them a few times now but no answer. Their agent here in NZ also not answering so i doubt he still in trade.

----------


## Pommy

69gr TMK at 307yd. MV of 3050.



Centre shoulder shot dropped him on the spot. Tried to get up very briefly - a few seconds at most and no follow up required. Massive trauma behind the shoulder, big hole through into the chest cavity, the contents of which were pretty well soupified. No exit.

----------


## Ground Control

Shot some load development with the 57gn Outer edge copper Monolithic projectiles today .
I'm using 2206H powder and I just can't get enough in the case to get up to the next accuracy node , 25gn is compressed but shows no pressure signs  .
Outer Edge recommend BM2 powder , so might have to track some down .
I definitely found an accuracy node between 23.6gn and 24gn , but I have no idea of the velocity because I don't have a chronograph .
I'm confident that these things will be the ducks nuts , but they need to be driven fast to really shine and show their true devastation on target .
The top left target was using Fiocchi factory ammo to sight in because I'd had the scope off the rifle

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

23.6gr looks good, I would be going with that. Your powder could be a hot batch so may be going quick enough.

----------


## Micky Duck

see if you can find winchester 748 if cant get the BM2 as you will be able to fit more in the case being a ball powder.

----------


## Nathan F

You need to get a chronograph. I’m loading 26gns of 2206h with a 69gn pill.

----------


## Nathan F

Same book max for a 60gn pill. Be fine with a 57gn pill. Just work up your load.

----------


## Ground Control

> You need to get a chronograph. Im loading 26gns of 2206h with a 69gn pill.


A Chronograph is on the wish list , maybe a self funded Christmas present  :Thumbsup: 
The issue with these projectiles is that they are really long ( copper monolithic) and at the recommended seating depth they protrude down into the case quite a bit .
I knew when I started that 2206H wasnt probably going to be the right powder , but it is what I have on hand at the moment.
The good news though is that my little test yesterday has shown that they will shoot in my rifle/ barrel .
A couple of guys that Ive been in contact with who use these say that they up the .223 effectiveness by quite a margin on bigger / heavier Pigs etc and thats what Im chasing.

----------


## Ground Control

Here is link to a podcast with the owner/ developer of Outer Edge projectiles .
Hope the link works for anyone that might be interested .


https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcas...=1000531075357

----------


## Nathan F

> A Chronograph is on the wish list , maybe a self funded Christmas present 
> The issue with these projectiles is that they are really long ( copper monolithic) and at the recommended seating depth they protrude down into the case quite a bit .
> I knew when I started that 2206H wasn’t probably going to be the right powder , but it is what I have on hand at the moment.
> The good news though is that my little test yesterday has shown that they will shoot in my rifle/ barrel .
> A couple of guys that I’ve been in contact with who use these say that they up the .223 effectiveness by quite a margin on bigger / heavier Pigs etc and that’s what I’m chasing.


Fair enough. Just out of interest put the caliper's on the bullet for OAL . I will measure mine later and report back.

----------


## Ground Control

Just measured up some projectiles.
Outer Edge 57gn = 23.0mm
Hornady 60gn Vmax = 22.1mm

But a lot of the difference is in the Ogive , I don’t have a way of measuring the Ogive but for example.
When measuring cartridge OAL to the lands in my rifle the length is .

Outer Edge 57gn = 58.42mm
Hornady Vmax 60gn = 59.62mm
The  Vmax is seated out further before it touches the lands , so there is an immediate increase in available space in the case , that plus the fact that the Outer Edge is 0.9mm longer to begin with and that it needs a bigger jump to the lands all contributes to 2206H not being the best choice.
Outer Edge has recommended load data for their projectiles and I can see now why their advice is for BM2 .

----------


## Kelton

20 odd goats 3 spikers and 16 pigs for the .223 yesterday arvo on a sweap of the new pine trees over the back one 70pound sow shot in the crease with the 65gk made it all of 15 yards everything else was head shot

Absolute little laser and these 65 game kings hold their own when needed to put one threw the vitals fountains of blood from the pork

----------


## Micky Duck

> A Chronograph is on the wish list , maybe a self funded Christmas present 
> The issue with these projectiles is that they are really long ( copper monolithic) and at the recommended seating depth they protrude down into the case quite a bit .
> I knew when I started that 2206H wasn’t probably going to be the right powder , but it is what I have on hand at the moment.
> The good news though is that my little test yesterday has shown that they will shoot in my rifle/ barrel .
> A couple of guys that I’ve been in contact with who use these say that they up the .223 effectiveness by quite a margin on bigger / heavier Pigs etc and that’s what I’m chasing.


well I used 24.5grns of same AR2206h for many years with 50-55grn projectiles...still do,have upped it to 25.1grn with a barnes 50grn ttsx  with good results on deer n pigs...
the terminal result is like a mildly loaded .243 or .270 using cup n core projectiles but the damage is done in reverse order eg lots damage near side,little hole farside.

----------


## flock

Gees mate leave some for me, all in an afternoon. Good shooting also like the GKs.

----------


## Nathan F

All i managed to do with my 223 over the long weekend was "educate " a couple of stags  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Tahr

77 Sierra TMK (last night)

325 yards, chest.


220 yds, neck.

----------


## Steelisreal

Did the 325 yard chest shot exit @Tahr?  Looks like a yearling maybe, not very big?

Well done on the neck shot, very tidy! Pays not to be a deer when Tahr is about with a rifle

----------


## Barry the hunter

> 77 Sierra TMK (last night)
> 
> 325 yards, chest.
> Attachment 208909
> 
> 220 yds, neck.
> Attachment 208910


good on ya thats xmas BBQ sorted -

----------


## Tahr

> Did the 325 yard chest shot exit @Tahr?  Looks like a yearling maybe, not very big?
> 
> Well done on the neck shot, very tidy! Pays not to be a deer when Tahr is about with a rifle ��


It didn't appear to. I dropped the deer off whole for my son at midnight so I never really had a good look. She didn't go far. Ran 15 yards maybe.
She was heavy enough to make me grunt getting her on the ute  :Have A Nice Day: 


Here's the neck shot one

----------


## drunk_mexican

@Tahr you running those 77s at standard tikka mag length? any issues?

----------


## country cuts

> A Chronograph is on the wish list , maybe a self funded Christmas present 
> The issue with these projectiles is that they are really long ( copper monolithic) and at the recommended seating depth they protrude down into the case quite a bit .
> I knew when I started that 2206H wasnt probably going to be the right powder , but it is what I have on hand at the moment.
> The good news though is that my little test yesterday has shown that they will shoot in my rifle/ barrel .
> A couple of guys that Ive been in contact with who use these say that they up the .223 effectiveness by quite a margin on bigger / heavier Pigs etc and thats what Im chasing.


Out of my small experience there is a big difference in case capacity my staline brass is a compressed load at 25grn of 2206h but adi you can fit 27 grn of 2206h

----------


## Tahr

> @Tahr you running those 77s at standard tikka mag length? any issues?


Yes. Just a snug fit. No problems at all. 2900fps standard 1:8 twist barrel

----------


## drunk_mexican

> Yes. Just a snug fit. No problems at all. 2900fps standard 1:8 twist barrel


Thats hoofing it, good stuff.
How would you compare the 77 tmks vs the 69 targex on fallow?

----------


## Tahr

> Thats hoofing it, good stuff.
> How would you compare the 77 tmks vs the 69 targex on fallow?


Using 2206H. The 77TMK are next level but nothing wrong with the Targex on Fallow or Reds.

----------


## Oldbloke

To be fair 223 would be fine for goats, fallow. But reds, Its boarder line, use something a bit bigger IMO

----------


## JoshC

I would say theres probably been more red deer shot in NZ with .223 & .222 than any other caliber. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Nathan F

> I would say there’s probably been more red deer shot in NZ with .223 & .222 than any other caliber. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes the few ive shot with those calibres have not complained  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## 7mm Rem Mag

> Yes the few ive shot with those calibres have not complained


They would complain if they could but they are stone cold dead, best calibre ever the mighty 223   :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Micky Duck

> I would say there’s probably been more red deer shot in NZ with .223 & .222 than any other caliber. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


you could probably say there has been more deer wounded in NZ with then too.......... the .303brit was up there for many years,the .308,243,270,30/06 came along and killed it off... 
said it before..re read Philip Holdens chapter 222 the controversial one...... its as relevant today as when he wrote it all those years ago..the heavy for calibre and mono projectiles have changed things for the better but you still have to get in as close as you can and poke that wee bit of metal in the right place....a gut shot with a .50BMG is still a gut shot and will still crawl away to die horrible death....

----------


## csmiffy

@Micky Duck yip. Old acquaintance of mine spent a couple of years culling and such.
Wore 2 barrels out on a browning bar 308 using predominantly 180gr round nose.
Never had an issue.
Went to a sako 222 and first handful of deer were a right xock up. Had the habit of aiming for big bits usually and even if he was a little off the big pill still did the bizzo.
Had to quickly learn to aim at different spots. 
He was a good enough shot to make it work but had to change his shooting habits

----------


## Lauries Hut

In a way it’s a bit like surfing. 
If you’ve ever surfed some of the big waves at the internationally famous breaks like Pipeline or Waimea Bay, the smaller you call the wave, the bigger the man you are.
So 3 guys will go out, one will call it 30’ one will say it’s only 28, and so on. In actual fact it’s probably 35 foot.

Obviously successfully killing a deer with a light calibre at longer distances proves your hunting prowess. The lighter the bullet and the further….

----------


## Micky Duck

funny thats a bit like a pissing contest.... who can go the furtherest..
for ME harvesting a deer is NOTHING like that... NOTHING AT ALL.
I usually use my faithful .270  but at times feel like a change so carry something else,I KNOW the range will need to be closer and my aim better... if I do my bit and poke that tiny bit of metal in right place all is good.

----------


## Lauries Hut

> funny thats a bit like a pissing contest.... who can go the furtherest..
> for ME harvesting a deer is NOTHING like that... NOTHING AT ALL.
> I usually use my faithful .270  but at times feel like a change so carry something else,I KNOW the range will need to be closer and my aim better... if I do my bit and poke that tiny bit of metal in right place all is good.


Yeh mate, I’m sure that’s most often the case. 
I’m sure most of us have our favourites, and a few others in our collection, so we take them out for a walk. But I tend to refer back to type, my old faithful is my 308.
It’s a rare thing it’s found wanting, and by in large there’s enough overkill in it to make up for my inadequacies…
I’m no sniper or Peter Hathaway Capstick!

----------


## Nathan F

That’s not what this thread is about. It’s about killing deer with .223’s. Take the ethics and moral high ground elsewhere. Not on this thread. Phillip Holdens chapter may have had relevance in the 1970’s , not in 2022. Optics , reloading and bullet selection make a huge difference. Some points are valid. A lot are moot.

----------


## woods223

As posted on other threads I’ve used 222,223 &308 over last 46 years. Shot thousands of animals, lost one or two as you do. The lighter cals. are just as effective as bigger cal. as long as the nut behind the butt does their part. Just got to be aware of conditions and make allowance for them. As pointed out in post above one can get lazy or complacent about where they aim with larger cal. I have a soft spot for 308 but since shoulder surgery I tend to use 223 almost exclusively. It’s a lot easier on the body with multiple shots and just as effective   The only difference from Holden’s days is 50gr psp 222 back then vs 55gr psp 223 now. I do play around with heavier bullets but about 90% use 55gr.  Just my 2 cents.

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## Tahr

You can’t compare Holden shooting factory 50 grain .222 with a modern fast twist .223 with hand loaded heavy bullets.

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## Tahr

> In a way its a bit like surfing. 
> If youve ever surfed some of the big waves at the internationally famous breaks like Pipeline or Waimea Bay, the smaller you call the wave, the bigger the man you are.
> So 3 guys will go out, one will call it 30 one will say its only 28, and so on. In actual fact its probably 35 foot.
> 
> Obviously successfully killing a deer with a light calibre at longer distances proves your hunting prowess. The lighter the bullet and the further.


This thread is about the performance and capability of the 222/223. Its been on point for 46 pages. Now this. Why??

----------


## woods223

> You can’t compare Holden shooting factory 50 grain .222 with a modern fast twist .223 with hand loaded heavy bullets.


Wasn’t really trying to, just noted that 55gr 223 does the job as good today as back then. Only had trouble finding two out of twenty-seven deer in last few months. Of course faster twist barrels and heavier bullets add another dimension.

----------


## Micky Duck

thats the interesting bit.....you can get 55grn loads for the .243  too...... 
its all about putting that tiny bit of metal in the right place....for sure the heavier pills AND mono pills around today have upped its preformance no end.... yo ustill got to poke it in right place...THAT MUCH HASNT CHANGED.

----------


## Micky Duck

another way of saying what Im trying to get across.....any cartridge has good loads,OK loads, really good loads and some absolute shockers....
the secret is to use a good bugger or make plurry sure you poke it where its weaknesses wont stop it killing well.
I KNOW of members on here who bush shoot sika using 50-55grn vmax with great results...all about placement.
shikes my last deer I didnt use a 223.....I just happened to have its older smaller sibling in my hands,the wee fallow didnt complain,it took half dozen wobbly steps and fell over dead...JOB DONE.

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## TeRei

> You can’t compare Holden shooting factory 50 grain .222 with a modern fast twist .223 with hand loaded heavy bullets.


Or Rex Forrester recalling shooting deer with a .22 when possum hunting. Right off the topic now. So 65gr sierra or 52 Targex or 55gr Barnes. Might as well throw in a 53gr Barnes.

----------


## Tahr

Centre shoulder shot. Off hand at 80 yards.  80grn Targex drove right through into the off shoulder. I only found shards of copper. Ran a few yards, reared up, and died.

----------


## Nathan F

good back on track

----------


## 7mmwsm

> I'm going the next level up. 17 hornet with 21 or 25 gr hammers. Can't wait, just need the cops here to get a move on my fal


Test it on something that will stomp on you or chew you up  rather than run off out of sight to die if it doesn't work.

----------


## country cuts

223 is a great little round not ideal for a beginner hunter as said you need to poke the round in the right place and isn't as forgiving as a 308 or 270. That being said you know what the range limits of your 223 and projectile choice and half the fun is getting in close enough to make it count and satisfying that part of hunting/shooting

----------


## drunk_mexican

55gr Sierra game king, 3125 fps. 274m. dropped on the spot.

----------


## Barry the hunter

the size of some of the fallow now with numbers up a .222 or .223 bout all one needs otherwise mince meat -projectile choice though everything and where this forum is great for reloaders - and the new hunters - wise old heads who have actually tried various projectiles  - always seemed to me in DOC and earlier Forest Service the USA made .222 was crap on killing although accurate ( federal winchester ) the Euro made ammo especially Sako and Norma killed well on goats and deer .  Sako was always our favourite -I guess the USA made stuff was designed for gopher smoking- but in the red roar .308 every time

----------


## Tahr

Yes  @Barry the hunter . There are some pitiful Fallow around. 

I shot this pregnant doe culling a couple of days ago. She was poorly grown out and light.150 yards and the lung shot 80 grn Targex went right through her and left a gaping hole as you would expect. But in reality any 222/223 would have dealt to her.

----------


## Tahr

80 grn Targex. Took the top of the heart off and destroyed half the lung. 300 yards. A beautiful deer.

----------


## charliehorse

Jealous. Plenty of good grass for them by the looks too

----------


## Tahr

> Jealous. Plenty of good grass for them by the looks too


Its a magnet for them.

----------


## Nick-D

> 80 grn Targex. Took the top of the heart off and destroyed half the lung. 300 yards. A beautiful deer.
> 
> Attachment 210203


Damn that's an epic skin! Be good chewing too.

----------


## 25/08 IMP

I just wish we could get more of those 80 grn

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

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## TeRei

My hunting mate had a 7/08 which he shot with really well. Wanted a rifle both him and his son could use. Encouraged him to buy a T3 223. Has some spare Hornady 55gr [non cannelure] Rolled them up with BM2.  He sighted it in by blowing over a turkey @ 200m. Last night 2 deer both head shot @ 150m and 100m. He is very happy. They did the bizo for him.

----------


## +Snoop

They made me do it.  Browning BLR takedown in 223.  Brand new from a really cool guy on Trademe who ordered pre-covid then moved overseas.  For use on sika and reds in the bush - behind an indicating dog.  Always wanted a lighter calibre, and finding with the dog I'm getting time to place my shots.  Biggest decision right now is what ammo to run through it with many brands out of stock.

----------


## flock

Nice, I like

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## 7mmsaum

> Attachment 211061
> 
> They made me do it.  Browning BLR takedown in 223.  Brand new from a really cool guy on Trademe who ordered pre-covid then moved overseas.  For use on sika and reds in the bush - behind an indicating dog.  Always wanted a lighter calibre, and finding with the dog I'm getting time to place my shots.  Biggest decision right now is what ammo to run through it with many brands out of stock.


Anything pushing a 55g Sierra gameking projectile code #1365

----------


## TeRei

Putting aside personal views I think everyone will be informed about different perspectives on the thread TAHR mentioned which I have linked. There are are some quite witty comments which make a great read and a wonderful distraction form the painful political garbage we endure daily.

https://www.rokslide.com/forums/thre...130488/page-20

----------


## Sidetrack

Just back from 14 days on Stewart Island and after shooting a yearling buck with the wee Tikka 223, I have to say that the experience was less than satisfactory. Shot placement was the issue and that is on me. Walked in on it and a doe in waist high crown fern so only option was a frontal shot close in. Bullet (55gn) hit dead centre, travelling full length without hitting anything vital before exploding in the back wheels, decimating both hips joints. Wasnt going anywhere so quietly finished off with a knife. 
Not saying Im done with the 223 but I think this has just reinforced that time and shot placement is more critical with the light weights, for me anyway. I think a caliber with a bit more mass like the 270, which Im used to, would have gutted, skinned, and hung up the carcass with that shot.
I dont want to make excuses, it is what it is and on the odd occasion you cant allow for all the variables, its just that it created doubts and as we all know, doubt creates lack of confidence and that is the road to shooting hell.

The positive is that Ive been mulling over a more purpose built bush gun for the past year, light, compact, slightly heavier caliber, but will still comfortably wack em over out to 150-200yrds. Will progress that.

----------


## HUNTY

[QUOTE=Sidetrack;1389542]Just back from 14 days on Stewart Island and after shooting a yearling buck with the wee Tikka 223, I have to say that the experience was less than satisfactory. Shot placement was the issue and that is on me. Walked in on it and a doe in waist high crown fern so only option was a frontal shot close in. Bullet (55gn) hit dead centre, travelling full length without hitting anything vital before exploding in the back wheels, decimating both hips joints. Wasnt going anywhere so quietly finished off with a knife. 
[COLOR="#FF0000"]Not saying Im done with the 223 but I think this has just reinforced that time and shot placement is more critical with the light weights


I sold a 7x57 years ago because of the same experience that you have just described, except my bulls up was with 3 stags that needed finishing off with a knife, looking back now, i realize that it wasn't the caliber or placement that was at fault, it was simply a case of wrong projectile, you will never find a projectile that is suitable for all shooting distances or different deer breeds (fallow yearling- red stag) But some projectiles are better suited than others at covering all scenarios.
Not sure if you reload or were using factory ammo, but that projectile traveled a long way before mushrooming.

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## gimp

> Just back from 14 days on Stewart Island and after shooting a yearling buck with the wee Tikka 223, I have to say that the experience was less than satisfactory. Shot placement was the issue and that is on me. Walked in on it and a doe in waist high crown fern so only option was a frontal shot close in. Bullet (55gn) hit dead centre, travelling full length without hitting anything vital before exploding in the back wheels, decimating both hips joints. Wasn’t going anywhere so quietly finished off with a knife. 
> Not saying I’m done with the 223 but I think this has just reinforced that time and shot placement is more critical with the light weights, for me anyway. I think a caliber with a bit more mass like the 270, which I’m used to, would have gutted, skinned, and hung up the carcass with that shot.
> I don’t want to make excuses, it is what it is and on the odd occasion you can’t allow for all the variables, it’s just that it created doubts and as we all know, doubt creates lack of confidence and that is the road to shooting hell.
> 
> The positive is that I’ve been mulling over a more purpose built bush gun for the past year, light, compact, slightly heavier caliber, but will still comfortably wack ‘em over out to 150-200yrds. Will progress that.


Poor performance can happen with any bullet, but in this day and age it doesn't make any sense to be using 55gr bullets in a .223 with a fast twist barrel. The heavier 70-80gr bullets work a lot better if you select an appropriate option.


Also, shot the first spring deer with the .223 the other day after hibernating for winter, big fat red hind at 230m, shoulder shot with 80gr ELDM, wobbled a couple of steps and died.

----------


## Tahr

You certainly have to hit them in the right place. Regardless of caliber. But you do get a margin of error with the heavier .223 bullets.

Here's an example from a couple of days ago. Head shot with an 80 grain Targex at about 100 yards (in a torch on the way home), but someone had had a shot at it previously. Probably Mickey D or Lauries Hut with their 270 or 308  :Have A Nice Day:   :Have A Nice Day:  





I shot this earlier the same day in the trees at about 80 yards. Hit a bit far back with the 80grn and green stuff on the exit, but it still dropped within 10 yards.

----------


## Sidetrack

[QUOTE=HUNTY;1389572]


> Just back from 14 days on Stewart Island and after shooting a yearling buck with the wee Tikka 223, I have to say that the experience was less than satisfactory. Shot placement was the issue and that is on me. Walked in on it and a doe in waist high crown fern so only option was a frontal shot close in. Bullet (55gn) hit dead centre, travelling full length without hitting anything vital before exploding in the back wheels, decimating both hips joints. Wasn’t going anywhere so quietly finished off with a knife. 
> [COLOR="#FF0000"]Not saying I’m done with the 223 but I think this has just reinforced that time and shot placement is more critical with the light weights
> 
> 
> I sold a 7x57 years ago because of the same experience that you have just described, except my bulls up was with 3 stags that needed finishing off with a knife, looking back now, i realize that it wasn't the caliber or placement that was at fault, it was simply a case of wrong projectile, you will never find a projectile that is suitable for all shooting distances or different deer breeds (fallow yearling- red stag) But some projectiles are better suited than others at covering all scenarios.
> Not sure if you reload or were using factory ammo, but that projectile traveled a long way before mushrooming.


Running with the last of the H&F stuff that came with the rifle. Twist rate is 1:12 so running heavier bullets not really an option. Will start reloading early next year and be a bit more circumspect about shot placement. It’s still a great wee rifle and has plenty of uses around here.

----------


## 7mmwsm

A simple basic outlook is, a bigger caliber will do everything a little caliber will, but a little caliber won't do everything a big caliber will.

----------


## gimp

> A simple basic outlook is, a bigger caliber will do everything a little caliber will, but a little caliber won't do everything a big caliber will.



It's a nice thought, except that a .223 with good heavy bullets does kill deer of all shapes and sizes at all normal hunting ranges perfectly acceptably, with no recoil, quiet report, a light short rifle and very cheap handloads compared to anything larger

----------


## 7mmwsm

Sure, but, my statement is still correct.

----------


## gimp

When a little calibre does enough, I'd consider it irrelevant though

----------


## csmiffy

> Just back from 14 days on Stewart Island and after shooting a yearling buck with the wee Tikka 223, I have to say that the experience was less than satisfactory. Shot placement was the issue and that is on me. Walked in on it and a doe in waist high crown fern so only option was a frontal shot close in. Bullet (55gn) hit dead centre, travelling full length without hitting anything vital before exploding in the back wheels, decimating both hips joints. Wasnt going anywhere so quietly finished off with a knife. 
> Not saying Im done with the 223 but I think this has just reinforced that time and shot placement is more critical with the light weights, for me anyway. I think a caliber with a bit more mass like the 270, which Im used to, would have gutted, skinned, and hung up the carcass with that shot.
> I dont want to make excuses, it is what it is and on the odd occasion you cant allow for all the variables, its just that it created doubts and as we all know, doubt creates lack of confidence and that is the road to shooting hell.
> 
> The positive is that Ive been mulling over a more purpose built bush gun for the past year, light, compact, slightly heavier caliber, but will still comfortably wack em over out to 150-200yrds. Will progress that.


 @Sidetrack funnily enough @Moa Hunter and I were discussing my shot on the deer we got the other day while having a breather on the way down the hill on the carry out
He suggested much the same thing as you just did but I think he was referring to a bigger calibre on red deer.
In that central area of the chest, things are split to the sides and if you are dead in the middle and miss the heart it is basically a gut shot from the front unless you have something big enough to wreck any of the back boney bits, which actually yours did
he reckoned it was worth aiming a little bit higher into the base of the neck I think.
I had the same thing with a hind years ago with the 243 as a young fella. Not a hard shot, little over maybe, but not good enough to shoot at anything more than big bits.
On a slight slope facing away and could see the whole backbone
Reasoned with myself that if I aim right at the spine about half way along the back it would work mint, should cover all bases with all that stuff in the front to hit. yeah nah.
Dropped like a stone but got up again. Did get the deer but the autopsy basically suggested that I had just missed the spine (hence it dropping but also getting up and buggering off) but it had also missed pretty much everything else. Little bit closer to one side and it would've been dead on the spot

----------


## gimp

> In that central area of the chest, things are split to the sides and if you are dead in the middle and miss the heart it is basically a gut shot from the front unless you have something big enough to wreck any of the back boney bits


I'd like to see an entirely un-injured set of lungs, heart, aorta, spine out of a deer that has been shot thus, to demonstrate that it's possible. I've got a high degree of scepticism that it is possible however happy to be convinced otherwise by concrete proof. I can provide as many damaged sets of vital organs from deer shot this way as you'd like. The chest cavity is packed pretty full and while you might not inflict immediately lethal damage, it is likely impossible to put a bullet actually through it without hitting something important. 

The evidence would suggest generally that tales of deer magically shot in the chest cavity subsequently running away unharmed probably weren't actually shot in the chest cavity. probably due to bad shot placement with an excessively recoiling calibre in their rifle!

----------


## Tentman

For what its worth.

I was farm hunting with a cobber trying to get him his first deer.  We happened on 3 deer out in the paddock at 140M.  A big framed spiker was facing us so I got him lined up on it.  He took the shot with it just slightly less than square on.  The sound of a hit was very clear, "that's not going far with a 308 bullet in it" was my thinking.  Well bugger me it kept coming forward, head up and not looking the least bit crook.  It turned slightly sideways so I smacked it in the shoulder to make sure it didn't get away.

I gutted it, and the damage to the lungs from my shot was clear, no sign at all of the 308 hit.  I figured maybe he'd missed after all.

When we were breaking it down my cobber found his 308 bullet in the hip.

The 308 bullet had gone the whole length of the deer with bugger all damage, certainly none to any organs or even the stomach/intestines.

So funny things can and do happen.

----------


## gimp

> For what its worth.
> 
> I was farm hunting with a cobber trying to get him his first deer.  We happened on 3 deer out in the paddock at 140M.  A big framed spiker was facing us so I got him lined up on it.  He took the shot with it just slightly less than square on.  The sound of a hit was very clear, "that's not going far with a 308 bullet in it" was my thinking.  Well bugger me it kept coming forward, head up and not looking the least bit crook.  It turned slightly sideways so I smacked it in the shoulder to make sure it didn't get away.
> 
> I gutted it, and the damage to the lungs from my shot was clear, no sign at all of the 308 hit.  I figured maybe he'd missed after all.
> 
> When we were breaking it down my cobber found his 308 bullet in the hip.
> 
> The 308 bullet had gone the whole length of the deer with bugger all damage, certainly none to any organs or even the stomach/intestines.
> ...


What was the path of the bullet through the body?

If you apply occams razor to the 2 possible scenarios:

1: A .308 round travelled the entire length of a deers body doing no harm to the various extremely soft internal organs in it's path until it hit a bony bit
2: An inexperienced shooter shot at a deer angled towards him and hit it directly in the hip with a poorly placed shot


#2 seems much more likely and unless you could trace the path of the bullet through the body to demonstrate it's #1 it would not seem likely

----------


## Tentman

I should have mentioned that I did find the bullet entry point, went in highish where the shoulder meets the neck.  It is pretty peculiar because the 150gn projectile did expand normally.

----------


## Micky Duck

> You certainly have to hit them in the right place. Regardless of caliber. But you do get a margin of error with the heavier .223 bullets.
> 
> Here's an example from a couple of days ago. Head shot with an 80 grain Targex at about 100 yards (in a torch on the way home), but someone had had a shot at it previously. Probably Mickey D or Lauries Hut with their 270 or 308   
> 
> Attachment 211327
> 
> Attachment 211328
> 
> I shot this earlier the same day in the trees at about 80 yards. Hit a bit far back with the 80grn and green stuff on the exit, but it still dropped within 10 yards.
> ...


man My .270 projectiles MUST be powerful to have gone all the way up to north island from down here...so yeah maybe I was stretching barrel a bit and slighly over compensated for the wind factor over cook straight....

----------


## OGM

Thanks for sharing your hunting stories, what you used and your experience. For a newbie like myself its a good way to pickup useful bits of information :-) Of particular interest to me is the reports of the Tikka T3 as this is the CF rifle I am considering.

----------


## Chur Bay

> You certainly have to hit them in the right place. Regardless of caliber. But you do get a margin of error with the heavier .223 bullets.
> 
> Here's an example from a couple of days ago. Head shot with an 80 grain Targex at about 100 yards (in a torch on the way home), but someone had had a shot at it previously. Probably Mickey D or Lauries Hut with their 270 or 308   
> 
> Attachment 211327
> 
> Attachment 211328
> 
> I shot this earlier the same day in the trees at about 80 yards. Hit a bit far back with the 80grn and green stuff on the exit, but it still dropped within 10 yards.
> ...


Hey Tahr. What is your recipe please?

----------


## r87mm

OMG, tikka yes. 223 probably no for a beginner. The most important things you should have gleamed from this thread are. Most of the hunters using a 223 are very experienced and take the time and have the skill to take a shot , or walk away. They realise they have little room for era and hunt accordingly. 
Or some used a 223 because thats what was in their hands at the time. A step upto a 243 will have not that much more recoil , with a suppressor noise becomes a mute point. But you will have a lot more power and era margin.
 This thread isn't about recommending a 223 for deer. Just what can be done in the right conditions with the right person behind it.

Sent from my SM-A205GN using Tapatalk

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## Tahr

> Hey Tahr. What is your recipe please?


   @Chur Bay 80grn Targex and 77grn Sierra match tipped 24.4grn 2206H. 2900 fps Standard T3.

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## Chur Bay

chur. thanks

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## Nick-D

> OMG, tikka yes. 223 probably no for a beginner. The most important things you should have gleamed from this thread are. Most of the hunters using a 223 are very experienced and take the time and have the skill to take a shot , or walk away. They realise they have little room for era and hunt accordingly. 
> Or some used a 223 because thats what was in their hands at the time. A step upto a 243 will have not that much more recoil , with a suppressor noise becomes a mute point. But you will have a lot more power and era margin.
>  This thread isn't about recommending a 223 for deer. Just what can be done in the right conditions with the right person behind it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A205GN using Tapatalk


Agree but also disagree. A poor shot is a poor shot. You can injure a deer as easily with a 243 or 308 as you can with a 223, and it's a logic that doesnt really pay out as otherwise we'd all be shooting 50's. There is an arbitrary point at which we each decide a firearm has enough energy for a clean kill but not to much as to be hard to shoot accurately, or to cumbersome to carry. 



If you are buying a gun for. The first time with the express purpose of shooting deer a larger caliber will be a bit more forgiving on a few variables. Range, pass throughs, path deviation due to bush, and flexibility of suitable ammo choice without knowledge of projectiles and terminal performance. But it will also come at a cost of, ammo price, shoot ability, larger platform, etc

----------


## rimubay

> @Chur Bay 80grn Targex and 77grn Sierra match tipped 24.4grn 2206H. 2900 fps Standard T3.


 @Tahr what COAL are you running with the Sierras? Thanks

----------


## Tahr

> @Tahr what COAL are you running with the Sierras? Thanks


Tikka mag length. 2.3" OAL for the 77 grn

----------


## 25/08 IMP

I wish those 77 weren't so dam expensive.
I got a price the other day $120 per 100 

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## 7mm Rem Mag

Gunworks $112

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## TeRei

> Tikka mag length. 2.3" OAL for the 77 grn


You must be seating them deep? Hard on the powder column?

----------


## 25/08 IMP

> Gunworks $112


Bugger that I don't even pay that for 6.5 eldx

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## Tahr

> You must be seating them deep? Hard on the powder column?


Work pretty good. The 77grn Sierra Tipped are designed for standard AR mags which are 2.3".

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## 7mm Rem Mag

> Bugger that I don't even pay that for 6.5 eldx
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


The way I look at it I am using them on deer so 100 will last a long time as I don't shoot that many.

Also they fit the standard Tikka mag as Tahr said which I like.

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## Tahr

A couple around 100 yards. No problem for the 80 Targex.

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## outdoorlad

Some prime meat there Tahr

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## Tahr

> Some prime meat there Tahr



 @outdoorlad both went to a charity.

79 for the year. 53 with the .223.
(I keep the back steaks for ourselves, family and friends and do a couple for sausages -  the rest almost exclusively go to charity).

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## Shearer

Just found this on You Tube. A Chamois shot with a .223rem. Go to 9:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFzFURYEZhM
Didn't even look like it was hit.

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## Micky Duck

> Just found this on You Tube. A Chamois shot with a .223rem. Go to 9:40
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFzFURYEZhM
> Didn't even look like it was hit.


missed all the boney bits....could have been just about any cartridge/projectile combination and would see same thing...animal didnt go far all the same.
care to hazard a guess as to ammunition choice??? would just about put money on it NOT being a bog standard 50-55grn cup n core at 3100fps...the pop when hit would have been greater had it been I suspect.

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## Tahr

> Just found this on You Tube. A Chamois shot with a .223rem. Go to 9:40
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFzFURYEZhM
> Didn't even look like it was hit.


Yeah, surprising there was no reaction at all. If you slow the vid down you can see the shock of the bullet hit but it appears to be quite low down above the bracket. Maybe a heart shot, which would account for the run.

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## Tahr

> Yeah, surprising there was no reaction at all. If you slow the vid down you can see the shock of the bullet hit but it appears to be quite low down above the bracket. Maybe a heart shot, which would account for the run.


Correction: Brisket, not bracket.

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## Flyblown

> Correction: Brisket, not bracket.


He says in the comments that it was a badly placed shot.

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## Shearer

Must admit I have had the same (non) reaction with a buck chamois hit with a 165gn Nosler BT from my short barreled 308win. I though I had missed it as it just stood there, side on, looking in my direction. A second shot dropper it but the first, behind the shoulder, had done the business. I have since changed to 168 ELD-M in that rifle and they seem to go better. The BTs were great in the 300wm but I suspect a bit hard for the lower velocity of the 308win.
Sorry. As you were. Back on topic.

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## Micky Duck

> Must admit I have had the same (non) reaction with a buck chamois hit with a 165gn Nosler BT from my short barreled 308win. I though I had missed it as it just stood there, side on, looking in my direction. A second shot dropper it but the first, behind the shoulder, had done the business. I have since changed to 168 ELD-M in that rifle and they seem to go better. The BTs were great in the 300wm but I suspect a bit hard for the lower velocity of the 308win.
> Sorry. As you were. Back on topic.


if you hit shoulder bones...much different outcome...a chammy is no bigger than average dog/nanny goat so not a heck of a lot of resistance to a big projectile,slipped in behind shoulders,there is chance to hit a rib...or slip between them,if it slips between it has stuff all to make it expand...same goes for lots of animals.

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## Tahr

> Must admit I have had the same (non) reaction with a buck chamois hit with a 165gn Nosler BT from my short barreled 308win. I though I had missed it as it just stood there, side on, looking in my direction. A second shot dropper it but the first, behind the shoulder, had done the business. I have since changed to 168 ELD-M in that rifle and they seem to go better. The BTs were great in the 300wm but I suspect a bit hard for the lower velocity of the 308win.
> Sorry. As you were. Back on topic.


I see some cheeky sod has been commenting on your 300wsm vid  :Have A Nice Day:   :Have A Nice Day:

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## Shearer

> I see some cheeky sod has been commenting on your 300wsm vid


Haha. After 9 years someone finally watched it :Thumbsup: 
Yeah. Hit in the point of the shoulder. I was very surprised it stayed standing for as long as it did. Wagging their tail is usually a good sign though.

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## dannyb

> Haha. After 9 years someone finally watched it
> Yeah. Hit in the point of the shoulder. I was very surprised it stayed standing for as long as it did. Wagging their tail is usually a good sign though.


I feel like a link is required  :Grin:

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## Tahr

When the 80 grn Targex hits a bony bit (entry). Still enough penetration to kill it on the spot though. About 100 yards.

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## +Snoop

Managed the first deer with the Browning BLR in 223.  Put this one up on the trudge back along a ridge line.  She was tucked in under a log.  Boosted ahead about 20 yards, raised the rifle and managed to get the red dot on her, dropped on the spot.

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## 25/08 IMP

Checked the .223 load yesterday 69 grn Targex and 2206

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## Scotts

@Thar what speed did you have the 69gr targex going? Did you find it made any difference on animals?

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## Tahr

> @Thar what speed did you have the 69gr targex going? Did you find it made any difference on animals?


3K from a couple of 20" barrels using 2206.

80 grain at 2800 performs better than 69grn at 3000. But 69 grn at 3000 performs a lot better than 69 grn at 2800.

Targex 69grn at 2.9/3k are better than 55 grn cup and core at 3150 on deer.

From my experience only.

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## TeRei

> Checked the .223 load yesterday 69 grn Targex and 2206
> 
> Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk


Drag them in closer together so you dont get splotch marks all over the target. LOL.

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## Nathan F

Hind from last night 69gn smk. See hunting reports for the autopsy

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## Andygr

> Hind from last night 69gn smk. See hunting reports for the autopsy
> Attachment 213951Attachment 213951


I'm not sure who looks happier, boy or dog !!

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## Hayden C

One with the Ruger No1. 

55g soft point behind the ear.

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## Tahr

> Attachment 214282
> 
> One with the Ruger No1. 
> 
> 55g soft point behind the ear.


Good. They hate that.

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## Trout

Good shooting HC.

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## the.camo.butcher

Another one for the Tikka with the 77gr Sierra. Dog indicated it was over a small rise, popped over and it was standing 40 meters away in some native .

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## Nathan F

> Another one for the Tikka with the 77gr Sierra. Dog indicated it was over a small rise, popped over and it was standing 40 meters away in some native .
> 
> Sent from my SM-N970F using Tapatalk


It’s eyes must have popped out of its head when you appeared

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