# Hunting > Hunting >  Warning Distressing and Disturbing Photographs- 1080 Poison

## Rushy

Scribe, has asked that I post these photographs in a thread as he has not been able to.  I am sure that he will add commentary once they are up.

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## Munsey

What a waste . Shame on you doc

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## Scribe

We have no right to inflict this sort of cruelty on any animal let alone a deer. The haemorrhaging from mouth, nose, eyes and tail end tell of a gruesome tale of suffering over many hours for these animals.

This area is no harder to get at, steep, inaccessible spot where they tell us they have to use 1080 because there is no alternative. This is Hihitahi Forest and it is just a kilometre off the main North South Highway just South of Waioru. I used to live next to and trap this forest and have carried many deer out on my back from this very spot.

 Where these deer are were found is in bush gullys surrounded by farmland. So far the searchers have found 10 dead deer and only seven dead possums.

It is an illegal act to target and kill deer with 1080 both DOC/AHB know this. Do they think the law does not apply to them???

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## Rushy

I know that there are many of us on this forum that hold strong contrary opinion about 1080 to DoC et al so I will not belabour that again but if you really want to send a shiver down your spine then take a look at the map in the first picture and consider how many of the water courses on that southern face of Hihitahi are carrying this toxin toward areas where that water is used for farm supply.

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## Dougie

Wow.  :Sad:

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## Gillie

This is really sad. My father and I were in Hihitahi the weekend after they dropped this. I believe they were planning to hand distribute that crap in the home bush as well. My father has been hunting up there for longer than i have been alive and this was the first place he use to let me tag along. I wouldn't have been 6 year old back then and we were living in Waiouru.

Shame, shame, shame.

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## Rushy

> Wow.


Damn, I didn't think a woman was capable of a one word sentence until that Dougie.  I had thought that was the domain of blokes up to now.  I have seen you take interest in this subject previously and now you can see why some of us are so passionate in our opposition to 1080.

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## Pointer

This is the visual that needs to be seen in the mainstream media - forward this everywhere!

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## Dougie

And wtf - Gillie has said, if someone is HAND distributing 1080, then why not just walk in and nail a few traps in????? Far out. It makes me sad to think that there are people in our beautiful country who think this is the only answer.

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## Summit

Cyanide would have been a better option there. It wouldnt take long for a few guys to cover that forest

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## Scribe

> Cyanide would have been a better option there. It wouldnt take long for a few guys to cover that forest


'Summit'  we believe DOC/AHB were targetting the deer in this drop...The local Farmers insisted on a possum monitor before the drop went in because the possum numbers were so low but the monitor was refused.

Google..... 1080-Related Animal Deaths A Shock to SPCA....And see what they have to say.

 The video of these clips will be posted on you tube in the next few days

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## Summit

Thats bullshit. We always suspected the reason they werent behind deer repellant was because they didnt mind deer being by-kills but to actually target them with a poison they know kills deer terribly slowly is just criminal. The SPCA just charged that trapper for using the wrong sized traps, they should step up on this.

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## Neckshot

Give that stuff straight to the media!

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## Scribe

> Give that stuff straight to the media!


We have been feeding this stuff to the media for years...They just wont touch it.

Doesnt matter whether it is baits in peoples water supplys...Cows poisoned drinking out of the local streams or what.

Google.... "SPCA Horrified 1080 Still Killing Deer"...and you will see more on the subject but not one newspaper has picked up on it. The Govt has got a hold on them alright...

The TV agencies have told us outright that they wont risk their "TV On Air" money they get from the Govt showing anything like this.

Hell though if this was all about a  little piglet in a Farmers pen they would be climbing all over it.

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## Scribe

More news just in...The Mayor of Taupo...Rick Cooper... Has offered to pay to have the samples taken from these deer tested for 1080 poisoning if DOC/AHB dispute the fact that it was their 1080 drop that caused these deer to die in such a cruel fashion.

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## Rushy

Excellent news. As you will no doubt know Scribe, Mayor Cooper has long been an opponent of the aerial dropping of 1080 and I hope on this occassion he prevails in bringing this to the forefront of public attention.

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## hunter308

It angers me to see this sort of crap knowing that two government departments are getting away with such a heinous crime against animals. There are other things I would love to say but could be taken as borderline political discussion which is a no no and I won't go there. I hope one day that the public and the powers that be wake up and smell the coffee and put an end to such an inhumane poison.

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## Neckshot

What about trying to apeal to peter dunn? after all he was behind deer stalkers standing up against the waro issue!.That was a case of House member vs DOC wasnt it? or am i wrong on that.

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## P38

> We have no right to inflict this sort of cruelty on any animal let alone a deer. The haemorrhaging from mouth, nose, eyes and tail end tell of a gruesome tale of suffering over many hours for these animals.
> 
> This area is no harder to get at, steep, inaccessible spot where they tell us they have to use 1080 because there is no alternative. This is Hihitahi Forest and it is just a kilometre off the main North South Highway just South of Waioru. I used to live next to and trap this forest and have carried many deer out on my back from this very spot.
> 
>  Where these deer are were found is in bush gullys surrounded by farmland. So far the searchers have found 10 dead deer and only seven dead possums.
> 
> It is an illegal act to target and kill deer with 1080 both DOC/AHB know this. *Do they think the law does not apply to them?*??


Yes!

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## veitnamcam

Unfortunately those pictures are nothing new to me.I have seen it for myself and need no convincing.
Likewise a large portion of the public have seen it aswell and need no convincing.
Unfortunately a much larger proportion of the public dont know/dont want to know/dont care.
How is it that some kids dressing up *ALREADY DEAD HUMANLY KILLED* possums makes national news when the SPCA complain about it but this sort of thing never gets a mention.

There seems to be two sorts of farmers in my experience pro AHB and the rest.

The powers that be that the masses elected (not me I voted for change)...........( Care takers take note no party names i dont want this political either.) are trying there best to keep a lid on this mass cruelty and destruction of our native species(as a by kill)

Where the hell is tonka? When I win ridiculous amounts of money on lotto(forever the optimist :Grin: ) I will be paying for prime time adds out of my own pocket to inform the masses about this heinous crime that is being performed everyday in our "clean green country"

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## stu#71

Got to get this mainstream. Campell Live?

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## H&K MAN

Brodifacoum killed those deer.Either mixed with 1080 or by itself.Unbeilevable they drop that from the air,be a lot of dead birds in there.Along with everything else .

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## Twoshotkill

FYI i have a mate that managed a DOC office (central North Island) in an area where 1080 is used often . He is also a very keen hunter and has a hatrid for the stuff.... Acording to him , the pest control board has absolute say over what doc think. His fight against and views on the poison has led to him being "re posted" to a lesser position in nowhere.
It still amazes me the underhanded tactics going on to keep things hidden.
In this area a few years ago now 1080 was "accidentaly" droped on private property and the property owners were paid out for stock on the strict condition that mouths were kept shut.

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## moonhunt

I have just spoken to a friend in the media, cross your fingers guys...

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## Twoshotkill

Good Luck Moonhunt

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## veitnamcam

> I have just spoken to a friend in the media, cross your fingers guys...


I hope your friend has some sway...........

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## Neckshot

+1

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## veitnamcam

If your taking it to the media you cant take the hunters angle. Been shot down to many times. Animal cruelty will grab the hearts of all those  big city folk.

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## moonhunt

I will try and hook scribe and co up with them... this could be one big can of worms

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## el borracho

that's just awful! I dont much care for Doc or some of the self righteous  hippys that work for them

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## Scribe

> I will try and hook scribe and co up with them... this could be one big can of worms


Hi 'moonhunt'..... I am up for it... I have a cupboard full of stuff some of it my worse than what has been put up today.

 I dont want to dishearten anybody but we have been to this place with the Editors of most of the major papers before but they always pull the pin on a story in the end.

I will answer your PM now.

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## R93

I have a good mate in the media circles as well and he wont touch it because of some of the reasons mentioned. 
Hes all good in my books, and thanks to him I got to take a very pretty young lady for a flap around the southern alps and later a wee walk where she seen her first deer being shot and dressed, she even gave a hand gutting IIRC.
She is now a regular on TV1 news.
It is too political and theres way too much money involved for anyone that can make a difference to stick there neck on the line. Bloody shame really.

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## Neckshot

Well i reckon Peter dunn would have a look! hes pro hunting and outdoors.

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## veitnamcam

Neckshot as much as I would like to agree/disagree with you this is not the place for it and this thread must survive!
No politics remember!

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## Neckshot

rito i hear ya

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## Chris

What a horrific way to die ,there is nothing remotely humane about it .

I wonder if these photo's etc could be posted on Face Book & made public .
Might be a good media to expose the facts about 1080 . 
Given how many people round the world use FB

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## R93

I would love to hack into a popular travel site, promoting a clean green NZ and chuck a few pics, vids and commentry.
It just needs a larger audience. I reckon 1080 use will actually die a slow death, I just hope to see it soon.

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## veitnamcam

Good luck Scribe and Moonhunt I hope some good will come of it.
However I think the only way we will bring any real change is to get the international media involved,as much as I hate to say it.
That would bring some real pressure to bear on our government (whoever that may be) to stop using this weapon of mass destruction and cruelty. If it got hyped up enough it would really hurt our tourism(unfortunately) reputation and revenue. And that they will have to listen to. They wont listen to their people.  :Sad:

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## veitnamcam

Im not on face book but by all means try, I bet you get shut down for whatever the word is........... "unsavory" pictures.
If enough people constantly post em on face book I guess face book themselves and everyone else would have to take notice.

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## Scribe

> Thats bullshit. We always suspected the reason they werent behind deer repellant was because they didnt mind deer being by-kills but to actually target them with a poison they know kills deer terribly slowly is just criminal. The SPCA just charged that trapper for using the wrong sized traps, they should step up on this.


In the Dom Post today

Possum Trapper was convicted and fined $300 plus $353 costs for using illegal leg hold traps.

Judge Hastings said despite possums being a pest there was still the obligation to treat them humanely......

Well what do you think of that then????.

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## Dougie

> What a horrific way to die ,there is nothing remotely humane about it .
> 
> I wonder if these photo's etc could be posted on Face Book & made public .
> Might be a good media to expose the facts about 1080 . 
> Given how many people round the world use FB


Facebook already done - I have a personal page as well as a 'military' page (I was not allowed to have subordinates as social media 'friends' so made a persona of my rank into a page) and have already had many friends share the link to this thread.

Over 500 military mates have seen the link.

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## Scribe

> Facebook already done - I have a personal page as well as a 'military' page (I was not allowed to have subordinates as social media 'friends' so made a persona of my rank into a page) and have already had many friends share the link to this thread.
> 
> Over 500 military mates have seen the link.


Well done 'dougie' I love ya.

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## hunter308

> Neckshot as much as I would like to agree/disagree with you this is not the place for it and this thread must survive!
> No politics remember!


Agreed cam like I said earlier I wish that I could say other stuff I want to say but I wish to remain within the rules of this forum. 




> I dont want to dishearten anybody but we have been to this place with the Editors of most of the major papers before but they always pull the pin on a story in the end.


To hear that members have had media all willing to do a write up in a national paper is good but why do they want to pull the pin on such an article that needs to be bought to the attention of the non outdoors people. What a good way to keep a truly evil product in supply and use to line the pockets of the shareholders of the company that imports the stuff, that is to keep everyones mouths shut by disallowing knowledge of the true side effects this stuff causes to a dying animal, plus compensating land owners for loss of stock when 1080 has made it onto private land under the agreement of non disclosure of the incident ever happening. Keep pushing the media to get a story out there until you can successfully get an article published by a paper who is not scared to tell the truth.

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## Chris

Couple on my face book page now too .

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## hunter308

> In the Dom Post today
> 
> Possum Trapper was convicted and fined $300 plus $353 costs for using illegal leg hold traps.
> 
> Judge Hastings said despite possums being a pest there was still the obligation to treat them humanely......
> 
> Well what do you think of that then????.


Prime example of double standards WE are not allowed to use any form of possum trap that is deemed cruel but yet certain departments are allowed to inflict even more inhumane forms of pain to an animal through poisoning and get away with it.  HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Dundee

> Well done 'dougie' I love ya.


Don't we all :Psmiley:  :Thumbsup:

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## veitnamcam

> Prime example of double standards WE are not allowed to use any form of possum trap that is deemed cruel but yet certain departments are allowed to inflict even more inhumane forms of pain to an animal through poisoning and get away with it.  HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!!!!!


"They" can get away with using all sorts of inhumane methods......sticky traps for rats mice is but one. Illegal for us tho

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## 7mmsaum

Could we work with, and support the Graf boys who have already walked a fair way down this path ????

Perhaps they would like to contribute to this thread?

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## Scribe

> Agreed cam like I said earlier I wish that I could say other stuff I want to say but I wish to remain within the rules of this forum. 
> 
> 
> 
> To hear that members have had media all willing to do a write up in a national paper is good but why do they want to pull the pin on such an article that needs to be bought to the attention of the non outdoors people. What a good way to keep a truly evil product in supply and use to line the pockets of the shareholders of the company that imports the stuff, that is to keep everyones mouths shut by disallowing knowledge of the true side effects this stuff causes to a dying animal, plus compensating land owners for loss of stock when 1080 has made it onto private land under the agreement of non disclosure of the incident ever happening. Keep pushing the media to get a story out there until you can successfully get an article published by a paper who is not scared to tell the truth.


Believe me '308' The information that started this thread has been doing a tap dance across the desks of every editor we think might publish the story for a few days now...You would think it was radioactive... they wont touch it.

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## Dundee

Well done Chris,I saw the images on facebook.

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## veitnamcam

> Could we work with, and support the Graf boys who have already walked a fair way down this path ????
> 
> Perhaps they would like to contribute to this thread?



They have put considerable effort into gathering evidence/footage and got a bit of air time but were immediately discredited and phoo hooed as hunters who want more game.
No doubt they probably have the most comprehensive video library of this atrocity but more air time in this country _could_ just come across as "oh not these pricks whining again'

What we need is a creditable internationally reconised scientist/biologist to take this to the media globally. And no doubt the graf boys could help with this with their extensive footage and local politics knowledge.

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## Scribe

> Could we work with, and support the Graf boys who have already walked a fair way down this path ????
> 
> Perhaps they would like to contribute to this thread?


Hallo '7mm' The graf boys have already contributed to this thread the figures in photo 3 and 9 holding the cameras are the Graf boys.

On there blogsite they do parallel autopsy's on a shot deer and one killed by 1080...Now that is something to see.

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## Scribe

> They have put considerable effort into gathering evidence/footage and got a bit of air time but were immediately discredited and phoo hooed as hunters who want more game.
> No doubt they probably have the most comprehensive video library of this atrocity but more air time in this country _could_ just come across as "oh not these pricks whining again'
> 
> What we need is a creditable internationally reconised scientist/biologist to take this to the media globally. And no doubt the graf boys could help with this with their extensive footage and local politics knowledge.


We have some great International Scientists working on the 1080 problem now.

Read here what they have to say 1080science

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## 7mmsaum

> Hallo '7mm' The graf boys have already contributed to this thread the figures in photo 3 and 9 holding the cameras are the Graf boys.
> 
> On there blogsite they do parallel autopsy's on a shot deer and one killed by 1080...Now that is something to see.


Thanks Scribe, I have met shorty and talked to them a few times now.

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## Spanners

What you need is a new and enthusiastic reporter...

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## Scribe

> What you need is a new and enthusiastic reporter...


You are right there 'spanners' we never stop hoping that one day the story written by the enthusiastic young reporter makes it across the Editors Desk. Thats why we still do story's.... to be honest there is no lack of interest in the subject from new enthusiastic reporters.

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## veitnamcam

> We have some great International Scientists working on the 1080 problem now.
> 
> Read here what they have to say 1080science


I read the one involving the maggot who shalt not be named, The rest will have to wait. Its not new to me and im not the one who needs convincing.
We just need to work out how to open everyone else's eyes with out being shut down before we get the chance.

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## Rushy

> When I win ridiculous amounts of money on lotto(forever the optimist) I will be paying for prime time adds out of my own pocket to inform the masses about this heinous crime that is being performed everyday in our "clean green country"


Good on ya mate!  Hope you win and keep just enough back for a good bottle of single malt as well.

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## Rushy

> I have just spoken to a friend in the media, cross your fingers guys...


All power to you moonhunt.

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## Rushy

> Good luck Scribe and Moonhunt I hope some good will come of it.
> However I think the only way we will bring any real change is to get the international media involved,as much as I hate to say it.
> That would bring some real pressure to bear on our government (whoever that may be) to stop using this weapon of mass destruction and cruelty. If it got hyped up enough it would really hurt our tourism(unfortunately) reputation and revenue. And that they will have to listen to. They wont listen to their people.


That idea coupled with the idea that Chris had to put on facebook are worth pursuing.

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## Rushy

> In the Dom Post today
> 
> Possum Trapper was convicted and fined $300 plus $353 costs for using illegal leg hold traps.
> 
> Judge Hastings said despite possums being a pest there was still the obligation to treat them humanely......
> 
> Well what do you think of that then????.


Too right Scribe, there is no equity in this situation at all.

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## Rushy

> Facebook already done - I have a personal page as well as a 'military' page (I was not allowed to have subordinates as social media 'friends' so made a persona of my rank into a page) and have already had many friends share the link to this thread.
> 
> Over 500 military mates have seen the link.


Damn Dougie, I love a woman of action.  I hope it goes absolutely viral.

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## Rushy

Go onto Youtube and look at "THE BEER FOR THE NOCTURNAL MIGRATION - Tooheys Extra Dry"

This advertisement for Tooheys extra dry beer aimed at the Australian market was shot using my and a near neighbours herd.  One of my hand reared hinds (Zoe) features prominently in the ad (looking out the window of the apartment, eating the burger at the pie cart, kissing the stag at the end etc).   Imagine the hue and cry here and abroad if I deliberately fed her some 1080 this evening.  In all reality, how would that be any different to what DoC and AHB et al do day in and day out?

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## Munsey

> Go onto Youtube and look at "THE BEER FOR THE NOCTURNAL MIGRATION - Tooheys Extra Dry"This advertisement for Tooheys extra dry beer aimed at the Australian market was shot using my and a near neighbours herd.  One of my hand reared hinds (Zoe) features prominently in the ad (looking out the window of the apartment, eating the burger at the pie cart, kissing the stag at the end etc).   Imagine the hue and cry here and abroad if I deliberately fed her some 1080 this evening.  In all reality, how would that be any different to what DoC and AHB et al do day in and day out?


The difference would be you would go to prison .

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## Rushy

> The difference would be you would go to prison .


Exactly my point Munsey.  Where would be the equity in that?

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## Dougie

Sidenote - cool ad Rushy!

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## Rushy

> Sidenote - cool ad Rushy!


Yeh, they paid me more to rent Zoe for a fortnight than I would have sold her to them for (let alone the rest of the herd).  There is a chance of a second ad with the same theme being shot and since then I have hand reared a young stag fawn that could become a star.  Bloody hand reared's are the biggest pain in the arse on the property until someone wants to pay you to borrow one for a while.  Dougie that ad is a typical example of what not to believe when you see something on a screen these days.  Not one of the stags still had antlers on when that was shot.  They are all digitally enhanced.  It was fucking chaos (and at times hilarious to watch) while they were shooting the various scenes as not one of the arty farty types had any knowledge of deer whose only instinct is to shoot the gap if you put pressure on them.

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## Pointer

Is there a facebook link or page for us to share?

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## Dougie

> Is there a facebook link or page for us to share?


I just linked to this thread.

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## hunter308

can you link the page in this thread too please ?

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## eltoro

> We have been feeding this stuff to the media for years...They just wont touch it.
> 
> Doesnt matter whether it is baits in peoples water supplys...Cows poisoned drinking out of the local streams or what.
> 
> Google.... "SPCA Horrified 1080 Still Killing Deer"...and you will see more on the subject but not one newspaper has picked up on it. The Govt has got a hold on them alright...
> 
> The TV agencies have told us outright that they wont risk their "TV On Air" money they get from the Govt showing anything like this.
> 
> Hell though if this was all about a  little piglet in a Farmers pen they would be climbing all over it.


10,000 marching down Queens St, with 5,000 outside parliament yelling and screaming and kicking up one hell of a fuss. The media is not going to ignore that, and our arrogant govt will have trouble ignoring it as well. This is a get off your arse and get angry, in numbers issue.

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## Scribe

> 10,000 marching down Queens St, with 5,000 outside parliament yelling and screaming and kicking up one hell of a fuss. The media is not going to ignore that, and our arrogant govt will have trouble ignoring it as well. This is a get off your arse and get angry, in numbers issue.


Hunters are there own worst enemy. We had a fairly successful anti 1080 march in Whitianga a few years ago. But there was hardly a figure at the march from the group most affected by 1080 drops in the Coromandel (the pig hunters) I bailed a few of them over the weeks and asked the where they were...They nearly all said..Aw we thought everybody would be at the march so we went and poached such and suchs block or the pines or some other bloody place.

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## Rushy

> 10,000 marching down Queens St, with 5,000 outside parliament yelling and screaming and kicking up one hell of a fuss. The media is not going to ignore that, and our arrogant govt will have trouble ignoring it as well. This is a get off your arse and get angry, in numbers issue.


I'd walk that mile down Queen Street to add voice to this issue.  Maybe someone on this forum has some experience organising such a demonstration of civil dischord.

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## Scribe

> I'd walk that mile down Queen Street to add voice to this issue.  Maybe someone on this forum has some experience organising such a demonstration of civil dischord.


It hasnt worked in Auckland in the past. We had a march in Auckland after the Rangitoto/Motutapu brodifacoum drop in 2009 that killed so many seabirds, fish, and marine mammals. It was embarrassing how few turned up.

99% of Aucklanders are so divorced from their roots in the Country that they really wouldnt know a native bird if they saw one nor do they have any interest at all in poisons or where they are being dropped.

It is better if we continue the way we are. Local groups all doing their own thing and all putting pressure on the Government all in their own ways.

Thames Landcare ran a petition here on the Coromandel and had it presented to Parliment along with the West Coasters ...The Then we all appeared before a Parlimentry Select Committee... That trimmed DOC/AHBs feathers for them.

Join a group ...The fastest growing group in New Zealand ..F.A.T.E... Farmers against ten eighty.

The most effective protest still, is all you farmers and town folk put up a dirty big sign on the roadside saying what you think of 1080 The proliferation of all the roadside signs on the West Coast is causing all our tourists to pay real attention to whats going on.

My sign on the Thames Coromandel Highway says,,,,
           TARGET THE PEST
NOT THE WHOLE DAMNED ECOSYSTEM.

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## eltoro

> It hasnt worked in Auckland in the past. We had a march in Auckland after the Rangitoto/Motutapu brodifacoum drop in 2009 that killed so many seabirds, fish, and marine mammals. It was embarrassing how few turned up.
> 
> 99% of Aucklanders are so divorced from their roots in the Country that they really wouldnt know a native bird if they saw one nor do they have any interest at all in poisons or where they are being dropped.
> 
> It is better if we continue the way we are. Local groups all doing their own thing and all putting pressure on the Government all in their own ways.
> 
> Thames Landcare ran a petition here on the Coromandel and had it presented to Parliment along with the West Coasters ...The Then we all appeared before a Parlimentry Select Committee... That trimmed DOC/AHBs feathers for them.
> 
> Join a group ...The fastest growing group in New Zealand ..F.A.T.E... Farmers against ten eighty.
> ...


I'm not the worlds most accomplished hunter but I've got lots of experience with activism. Working away diligently behind the scenes for year after year will not work. The cause must be thrust into public conciousness with as much force as possible and then kept there. Yeah you aren't going to get Aucklanders (in general) to rally on mass. But there needs to be a central point of focus. And all those who give a shit, and there seems to be heaps, need to get off their arse and make the effort. A lot of tough, manly, macho men to this forum probably despise the likes of John Minto but there's a good example of how to fight for a cause.

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## 12pointer

How would it go if large roadside billboards were produced depicting photos such as those above in this thread of the heamorhaging suffered by the deer before they die, and placed around the country, especially on popular tourist routes (probably have to be placed on concenting farmland or such) to bring pressure on the government by bringing this horror to the attention of one of the big income earners for New Zealand. In a similar way that the Drink Driving or Speeding billboards bring attention to road deaths. Or the graphic pictures on the backs of cigarette packets bring attention to cancer caused by smoking.
This may overcome the medias lack of willingness to get involved in 1080 matters.

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## R93

A heap of signs about 1080 were erected by land owners from Hokitika to Haast a year or 3 back.
All sorts of problems arose about sign size and regs by the regional council.
Heaps had to be removed the day after they were put up.
It seems there is always an answer for those that are pro 1080 and they get their way and pretty quick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

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## Josh

> A heap of signs about 1080 were erected by land owners from Hokitika to Haast a year or 3 back.
> All sorts of problems arose about sign size and regs by the regional council.
> Heaps had to be removed the day after they were put up.
> It seems there is always an answer for those that are pro 1080 and they get their way and pretty quick.


If a group up in Auckland can erect a certain sign saying that the cure for cancer is... "not the current norm", then we should be able to erect anti 1080 billboards. Just have to thoroughly go through the regulations first, and make sure the whole thing is above board.

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## Rushy

> How would it go if large roadside billboards were produced depicting photos such as those above in this thread of the heamorhaging suffered by the deer before they die, and placed around the country, especially on popular tourist routes (probably have to be placed on concenting farmland or such) to bring pressure on the government by bringing this horror to the attention of one of the big income earners for New Zealand. In a similar way that the Drink Driving or Speeding billboards bring attention to road deaths. Or the graphic pictures on the backs of cigarette packets bring attention to cancer caused by smoking.
> This may overcome the medias lack of willingness to get involved in 1080 matters.


Now there is an idea 12pointer.  Even something more subtle like these to add a bit of variety and not always be so graphic.

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## Josh

Taking a lead from the Drive Driving campaign, I'd say it either has to be funny enough to go viral (which is remarkably difficult to achieve), or graphic enough to stay in their minds. The pics at the start of this thread should suffice for that.

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## eltoro

How bout this?
People prepared to get arrested. Set a date and organise protests at MP's offices. This will require time, communication and fully dedicated people to drive it. Then at each office a nominated person dumps a box of dead animals on the counter of the office. And gets arrested and makes the news. A dozen people getting arrested on the same day for protesting 1080 is guaranteed to get it in the face of every single kiwi. Then you keep it up until you win.
I know I lot of you care very passionately about this subject as do I, but take it from a former activist, bar a few exceptions the fight fot this cause so far has been pathetic.

----------


## 12pointer

Hey Josh and R93, interesting replies about how the pro 1080 lobby having the answers. Seems funny how in the paddock next to my house is a billboard sized sign advertising the local pub (2km further on) which is errected on private land and obviously thats not classed as distracting or illegal because it's been there for years. Its probably 25 odd metres into the paddock so maybe that is far a enough into the private land to not be affected by any regs or bylaws.
Be interesting to suss the legalities in placing some graphic signs to stick it to the narrow minded uncomprimising government(s) we have.

----------


## Scribe

How about we run a good sign competition here on the Forum..I guarantee a good prize for it.

My own sign is 2 metres off the ground and measures 1x3 by 900 and is 3 metres off the edge of the tarseal. Its right on the main tourist route and you would be amazed how many people stop and take a photo of it.

I had a sign up in the same place that said 'Bugger 1080' but some old bird found it offensive so I had to take it down.

This sign has been up for nearly 5 months and though the Council has had a look at it they said I had a right to protest and so it stayed. 

Show us your signs folks.

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## Dougie

Can we see a picture, Scribe?

----------


## Dougie

Anti 1080 poison protest sign. 1080% Pure New Zealand, Thames-Coromandel District, Waikato Region, New Zealand (NZ). Stock photo from New Zealand (NZ). Photos and Stock Photography by Rob Suisted

I like this one.

----------


## Scribe

> Can we see a picture, Scribe?


If I could get my sign to fit in the scanner you might.. But I have the problem of reducing a photo to fit the forum max.

Here are some of the signs in the Coromandel..Someone made a good calender out of them.

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## R93

I think I have a sure fire way to hit a rather large audience.
I will reluctantly undertake this task as it will require a huge sacrifice and I couldnt really expect anyone else to do it.



I have decided to participate in a celebrity orgy with Katey Perry, Salma Hayek, Mila Kunis and Emily Browning.
It could last for days and be very taxing on me. Of course it will be taped in the best possible HD.
We can then upload it to the net to be watched for free, but in order to view it,  it will be preceded by a decent anti 1080 clip.
7mmsaum has also volunteered to do a  celeb movie with Danny Devito, Whoopi Goldberg and Steve Bucsemi. He wants Whoopi to do most of the camera work?!?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

----------


## 7mmsaum

Just for the record, Danny and Steve rang me.

----------


## Rushy

> I think I have a sure fire way to hit a rather large audience.
> I will reluctantly undertake this task as it will require a huge sacrifice and I couldnt really expect anyone else to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> I have decided to participate in a celebrity orgy with Katey Perry, Salma Hayek, Mila Kunis and Emily Browning.
> It could last for days and be very taxing on me. Of course it will be taped in the best possible HD.
> We can then upload it to the net to be watched for free, but in order to view it,  it will be preceded by a decent anti 1080 clip.
> 7mmsaum has also volunteered to do a  celeb movie with Danny Devito, Whoopi Goldberg and Steve Bucsemi. He wants Whoopi to do most of the camera work?!?
> ...


Ohh come on R93 you gotta be taking the piss otherwise you would use real women like Elle McPherson.

----------


## Scribe

> Anti 1080 poison protest sign. 1080% Pure New Zealand, Thames-Coromandel District, Waikato Region, New Zealand (NZ). Stock photo from New Zealand (NZ). Photos and Stock Photography by Rob Suisted
> 
> I like this one.


Thats funny 'dougie' I worked with Suisted in the Wanganui National Park monitoring 1080 drops when he was with Landcare Research.

I havnt seen this sight before but 5 of the signs he has photographed are ones that I have had up at my place over the last couple of years. He hasnt got my new one up yet though.

Mine were the 'bugger 1080'... '41% of Kea killed in South Island 1080 drop'... '1080 DOC Poisoned Paradise'....'1080 Kills All'...'1080% Pure New Zealand"

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## R93

> Ohh come on R93 you gotta be taking the piss otherwise you would use real women like Elle McPherson.


I would Rushy but its  meant to bring about awareness of 1080 not please dirty old men with a Milf movie.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

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## Scribe

The first Sign for best "Anti 1080 Sign Competition

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## Rushy

> How about we run a good sign competition here on the Forum


That is a good idea Scribe, I will see if my young daughter can whip one up.  I am as useless as tits on a bull when it comes to drawing!

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## Rushy

> I would Rushy but its  meant to bring about awareness of 1080 not please dirty old men with a Milf movie.


I resemble that remark!

----------


## Savage1

I don't want to start a shit fight but all they are is a bunch of pictures of dead deer, there are no signs that they suffered, we can only speculate. To be fair, a deer that has been shot looks a lot worse and that is what the media will look at, and the fact that hunters are mad that they don't get to kill them. They are after all, considered a pest.

Just trying to point out some of the other views you will encounter trying to take this public.

----------


## Timmay

I hear if you vomit blood before you die its a sign of a quick pain free passing.

----------


## stu#71

No-one's mentioned a slightly different angle.  What would your average Joe Public make of being shown all the cute little bambi's and rudolph's being poisoned inhumanely?  And all the cuddly wee moreporks etc. What about that?

Wouldnt that get the public all fired up?

Hunters cant do this - we shoot them after all !

----------


## Dougie

I still think coming from an animal lover's perspective is better, leave the hunting out of it. Average Joe doesn't understand that you can be both.

----------


## R93

Who's saying the outrage against 1080 has to come from hunters?
It could be from anyone concerned about it. 
I think the fact that it is happening would out weigh who brought it to peoples attention.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

----------


## Dougie

1080 Frequently Asked Questions | Forest and Bird

This is a very quick google search result. There will be many many other websites that are advocating 1080. This makes me sad. The answer to the deer question is comparable to "yeah, it kills deer, but so what?".

Interesting how there is no information on how the poison works and what is happening to the body of the animal while it is dying it's slow, painful death.

----------


## Twoshotkill

Hay scribe  ... what is the SPCA view on this?? Would they be intrested in hunter /animal lover financed court action against these cruel people.??? Even if it got nowhere fast surely it would hit the front page of most papers???
I know i would donate to such a cause and could drum up a lot of other donators.

----------


## Scribe

> Hay scribe  ... what is the SPCA view on this?? Would they be intrested in hunter /animal lover financed court action against these cruel people.??? Even if it got nowhere fast surely it would hit the front page of most papers???
> I know i would donate to such a cause and could drum up a lot of other donators.


This is the SPCA stand at the moment.

This is an article in our local newspaper the Peninsula Press December 15 2011

GOVERNMENT GUILTY OF 'RECKLESS' 1080 DEATHS.
"...effectively 'drift netting'...the forest causing uncounted deaths of both indigenous and introduced species.
The Government and its agencies can now be prosecuted and fined up tp $350,000 for the suffering and death of animals exposed to 1080. 
New legislation to the Animal welfare Act (AWA) policy earlier this year made it an offence to kill through the reckless use of 1080.
And with a Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To Animals (SPCA) statement saying that one agency Department Of Conservation (DOC)-are effectively "drift netting the forest" causing untold deaths of both indigenous and introduced species. Legislation has been put into place to stop this widespread 'illegal' suffering of animals.
Speaking this week Robyn Kippenberger Chief excutive of the SPCA said 'Whilst there is no provision in the AWA 1999 to take action on the poisoning of a pest animal  amendments to the legislation in July of this year provide for the reckless ill treatment of any animal................
The SPCA is is totally opposed to the use of 1080 in the control of deer as death of this species has been shown to be agonising and protracted with significant suffering. It is of deep concern that the Department Of Conservation are using this method to control deer numbers as 1080 is not licensed as a poison to control this species.
She added that "As 1080 is not species specific, the SPCA is extremely concerned by the by-kill resulting from the application of 1080. it is effectively 'drift netting' of the forest causing uncounted deaths of both indigenous and introducd species
Irrespective of all arguments on both sides of the 1080 debate scientific evidence proves that most affected animals will die agonising and likely prolonged deaths.

So yes we are hoping for a prosecution this year on "The reckless Misuse Of The Toxin 1080" and we are on standby to help when we are needed. Whether the help that is needed is financial or help in finding the right case to prosecute.

----------


## R93

That there would have to be the most promising thing I have seen or read in the fight against 1080. 
I hope they can front up.

----------


## Dougie

> That there would have to be the most promising thing I have seen or read in the fight against 1080. 
> I hope they can front up.


+1 on both those accounts.

----------


## Gutshot

Sick shit

----------


## Chris

I have heard this stuff is a residual poison,in that it absorbs into bone tissue not only muscle & soft tissue.Not sure how bio-degradable  it is either .The bulk on the animal breaks down but the bone may lay for 20 -30 years or longer.What happens if a dog eats one of these bones? If that's wrong I guess I'll be told but its what I have come to believe about 1080 .

----------


## veitnamcam

Not sure on the bones Chris but dogs are very prone to secondary poisoning.

----------


## Scribe

There was a report a few years ago of a dessicated possum carcases falling out of a woolshed roof and bein chawed on by a farmers dog...The dog died and tests on the dog proved positive to 1080 poisoning. It was years since 1080 had being used in this vicinity.
 I hope I am right in saying 7 years.

We use this rule of the thumb....If there is any trace of a bait its poisonous...If there is any trace left of animal killed by it, it poisonous.

We rate 1080 as an extreme residual poison because of its ability to go on killing down through the food chain to at least three levels.

Deer.... Invertebrate.....Native Bird

----------


## veitnamcam

Shit!.....................stags have been known to gnaw old antlers/bones looking for calcium

----------


## Scribe

My Dogs are old hands at this protest game.

----------


## Dougie

This stuff makes me angry.

*Edit*
Scribe that dog picture reminds me, on that link I put up it recommends to put a muzzle on your dog when you go tramping to keep it from eating anything that has been effected by 1080 to stop your dog from dying. I've got no problem going out for a tramp in a well populated busy area with a cage muzzle on my wee Jet and a jacket sign written that "1080 makes me wear this muzzle". He would be the most convincingly miserable looking pup. WTF eh. Should be provide muzzles for all the deer, kea, everything else that is "mistakenly" dying from 1080???!

----------


## Rushy

> Shit!.....................stags have been known to gnaw old antlers/bones looking for calcium


To true.  They do it quite a lot.

----------


## Rushy

> This stuff makes me angry.
> 
> *Edit*
> Scribe that dog picture reminds me, on that link I put up it recommends to put a muzzle on your dog when you go tramping to keep it from eating anything that has been effected by 1080 to stop your dog from dying. I've got no problem going out for a tramp in a well populated busy area with a cage muzzle on my wee Jet and a jacket sign written that "1080 makes me wear this muzzle". He would be the most convincingly miserable looking pup. WTF eh. Should be provide muzzles for all the deer, kea, everything else that is "mistakenly" dying from 1080???!


Dougie, not all of your post is showing above.  When I have gone to reply to you the rest of what you wrote to Scribe has become visible so I have left it here so that others can see what you wrote.

Anyway, I was wanting to say to you that in my view your anger is what any sane and rational person would feel toward the senseless indiscriminate killing that 1080 causes.  The important thing should you choose to do it now, is to channel that anger in a positive way toward opposing the use of this hideous toxin.

----------


## Scribe

> Shit!.....................stags have been known to gnaw old antlers/bones looking for calcium


But then we are all likely to pick up our own share of this poison from various other sources.

1994 - Milk from nine poisoned cow got into Kiwi Co-OP Dairies Ltd processing system. The milk got into Kiwi's tanker collection 
. Maf and MOH officials kept the case under wraps until June 11 six weeks after the event. Paul Marra, of Kiwi said the milk was processed into milk powder. (Rural News). 

2006 helicopter dropped a full load of pellets in Lake Taupo It was reported to be non-toxic pre feed bait.

Major Alert Child Chews Possum Bait... Rural News.
Natalie Albert ate a 1080 based cereal bait on Labour day....
 The Turner family were cleaning up a the Otukau Graveyard...
Mrs Turner said she was still picking up 1080 pellets around the marae on Otober the 31.

1996 10 bulls died from 1080 poisoning after drinking contaminated water. (North Pureora)

2002 At a meeting with the Ruapehu District Council, a local farmer spoke of deaths of his sheep and cattle soon after a previous 1080 drop, Autopsies confirmed 1080 poisoning as the cause of death of the animals. But in the meantime, the farmer had sent other animals from the same herds to the freezing works.

1999 1080 was detected in a processed deer carcase in Blenhiem for the second time in four months (Marlborough Express)

1992 70 deer lost in a Central North Island farm after a 1080 overfly..Of the remaining 48 hinds, only two bred the following season.

----------


## Dougie

Rushy - I really hope I can do something to help.

I am still so flabbergasted that this is happening in our home and has been happening for so long! 80% of the world's 1080 is used in NZ...how is that 100% Pure NZ?

What can we do??  :Sad:

----------


## hunter308

There was one man who protested this up until his death even when he was in his last days he camped on Tongariro as a protest and one last effort to get his point across, he was not the most popular man around because of some of the things he did but he was passionate about trying to stop 1080. Chris short we won't forget you or your contribution in the fight against 1080.

----------


## Rushy

> There was one man who protested this up until his death even when he was in his last days he camped on Tongariro as a protest and one last effort to get his point across, he was not the most popular man around because of some of the things he did but he was passionate about trying to stop 1080. Chris short we won't forget you or your contribution in the fight against 1080.


Yep I remember that.  The heightened awareness of the 1080 debate created by the television exposure him being prepared to die on Tongariro played a part in ultimately getting the program "Poisoning Paradise" to air.

----------


## Raging Bull

*Video: Deer mass-poisoned - Taihape farmer speaks out*

Deer mass-poisoned - Taihape farmer speaks out - YouTube

----------


## Rushy

> *Video: Deer mass-poisoned - Taihape farmer speaks out*
> 
> Deer mass-poisoned - Taihape farmer speaks out - YouTube


Thanks Raging Bull.  As always for people viewing this video clip, it is going to be contentious and polarising.  My views on 1080 are well known on the forum so it will be no surprise that having watched it I am left feeling further saddened and sngered that we as a nation allow this to occur.

----------


## 7mmsaum

At tvwild.co.nz there is some great info, footage, and a way we can vote 1080 out of New Zealand

----------


## Rushy

> At tvwild.co.nz there is some great info, footage, and a way we can vote 1080 out of New Zealand


My vote has been cast.  It was good to see that the site was smart enough not to allow me a second vote so the outcome ought to at least be seen to be credible.

----------


## Dundee

223 votes now!!

----------


## deerslayer

Were is the SPCA in all this shame DOC

----------


## TeRei

> In the Dom Post today
> 
> Possum Trapper was convicted and fined $300 plus $353 costs for using illegal leg hold traps.
> 
> Judge Hastings said despite possums being a pest there was still the obligation to treat them humanely......
> 
> Well what do you think of that then????.


Was up next to it today and got a big fat cat that did a huge dance and just about pulled out 2 big wire stakes. Luckily I had the trap tied down as well.There were some nice animals in there and I used to glass them quite often.They are going to hammer it again within 4 years. Nice perky job for the chopper.

----------


## mucko

Ok Guys good to see wild tv getting a spot on here share this link. but most importantly check out the reply Clyde got from the green party

Clyde Grafs Fotos | Facebook

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## Rushy

You gotta be shittin me.  A load of regurgitated propaganda thinly disguised as a letter.

----------


## Pointer

> Were is the SPCA in all this shame DOC




Here is a response I got from the SPCA, basically they don't like it but don't care enough to do anything.

Hello again,

We are aware of this and a national press release was sent out from our office to the media. Please see below:

RNZSPCA Press Release 01/08/12 - SPCA Horrified 1080 Drops Still Killing Deer

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
1 August 2012

Recent reports that 1080 drops have killed deer in the Taihape area have horrified the SPCA.

A family in Taihape reported to the SPCA that they had found four deer dead in bush adjoining their property after a notified Animal Health Board 1080 drop. The deer had died in distress, the son of the family saying that the deer he saw had bashed themselves around and died twisted around, obviously in agony.

In the past the SPCA has stated that as there is no approval to use 1080 as a deer poison in New Zealand and due to its excruciating effects on deer, all measures should be taken to avoid deer eating the baits. This would involve adding deer repellent to the 1080, adding a further cost to possum control that the Department of Conservation (DOC) sees as unacceptable.

It is totally deplorable that deer die in agony as a by-kill of possum control simply due to the cost of adding a humane repellent, says SPCA National CEO, Robyn Kippenberger. Pest control agencies know they cannot legally use 1080 to control deer numbers but appear to be doing this by stealth.

DOC asserts that the deer repellent is ineffective but the SPCA is asking for this to be added immediately to future drops, as 1080 drops are scheduled for the West Coast and other areas where deer are prevalent.

It seems disingenuous of any pest control agency, whether DOC or the Animal Health Board, to count their deer control where 1080 is dropped and then state that these animals are by-kill. 1080 is the driftnet of the forest, killing deer, native birds and other animals indiscriminately. This should never be acceptable, particularly animals that die in agony, Ms Kippenberger added.

The Taihape family noted that although they found four deer dead, they only found one dead possum, the species ostensibly being targeted.

Warnings to dog owners have been posted near 1080 drop sites on the West Coast as the poison is irreversible for dogs that will die a prolonged and agonising death. Any dog affected should be taken to a veterinarian for immediate euthanasia as there is no antidote.

For more information, please contact:

Robyn Kippenberger
SPCA National Chief Executive
Royal New Zealand SPCA
Mobile: 027 419 7722
Email: ceo@rnzspca.org.nz

And here is the SPCA stance on the use of 1080-

-          The SPCA is opposed to the use of 1080 but recognises the need for possum control within NZ, therefore we urge Government to seek more humane alternatives with urgency.

-          While it is proven that cyanide is a considerably more humane poison to control possums, the SPCA acknowledges that its application in deeply forested areas is not practical.

-          The SPCA is totally opposed to the use of 1080 in the control of wild deer as death in this species has been shown to be agonizing and protracted with significant suffering. It is of deep concern that the Department of Conservation are using this method to control deer numbers as 1080 is not licensed as a poison to control this species. 

-           As 1080 is not species specific, the SPCA is extremely concerned by the by-kill resulting from the application of 1080.  It is effectively drift netting' of the forest causing uncounted deaths of both indigenous and introduced species.

-          Irrespective of all arguments on both sides of the 1080 debate, scientific evidence proves that most affected animals will die an agonising and likely prolonged death.

-          Whilst there is no provision in the AWA 1999 to take action on the poisoning of a pest animal amendments to the legislation in July of this year provide for the reckless ill-treatment of any animal.  Should an operator be reckless in the application of 1080 (i..e. outside of the designated boundary) and a domestic or production animal suffers unnecessary pain and suffering as a result, the SPCA would consider prosecuting under Section 28A of the AWA 1991.

                       28A Reckless ill-treatment of animals

*   (1) A person commits an offence if that person recklessly ill-treats an animal with the result that
   *   (a) the animal is permanently disabled; or
   *   (b) the animal dies; or
   *   (c) the pain or distress caused to the animal is so great that it is necessary to destroy the animal in order to end its suffering; or
   *   (d) the animal is seriously injured or impaired.
(2) For the purposes of subsection (1)(d), an animal is seriously injured or impaired if the injury or impairment

   *   (a) involves
      *   (i) prolonged pain and suffering; or
      *   (ii) a substantial risk of death; or
      *   (iii) loss of a body part; or
      *   (iv) permanent or prolonged loss of a bodily function; and
   *   (b) requires treatment by or under the supervision of a veterinarian.
(3) A person who commits an offence against this section is liable on conviction on indictment,

   *   (a) in the case of an individual, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to a fine not exceeding $75,000 or to both:
   *   (b) in the case of a body corporate, to a fine not exceeding $350,000.
Section 28A: inserted, on 7 July 2010, by section 5<http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1999/0142/latest/link.aspx?id=DLM2747709#DLM2747709> of the Animal Welfare Amendment Act 2010 (2010 No 93)

Regards,

_(name supplied)_

----------


## Rushy

Good info update thanks Pointer.  It may be a long time coming but I look forward to the day that sanity finally kicks in and the use of 1080 gets banned after several successful prosecutions.  Not holding my breath though.

----------


## mucko

DO YOU MIND IF I SHARE THAT ON FACEBOOK POINTER. I HAVE ASKED CLYDE GRAF TO COME TO THE FARM IN NOVEMBER WHEN DOC WILL BE BOMBING THE RESERVE BEHIND THE FARM HOPEFULLY FIND SOME SUFFERING ANIMALS AND SEE IF THE SPCA WILL DO THEM. THINKING ABOUT GETTING THE WATER TESTED AS WELL

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## Pointer

Mucko feel free to use the offical press release. I don't know where else it is released mind you, could be a 'very quiet' press release

----------


## Sniper

Has anyone thought about setting up a protest in Wellington about the use of 1080? Surely there must be lots more hunters, trampers, animals lovers etc. Make some noise in there faces. 

I have been out of the country for a while so this might of already happened. Plus ive only read some of the 9 pages.

----------


## Bavarian_Hunter

fucking heroes arent they. I work in conservation and I'm all for sustainable management but there is no way in hell that should be allowed. 1080 is used on foxes and pigs here but its all tested for years before its used to make sure only target species get it. Still not good enough in my books. 

They should hang their heads in shame

----------


## LegaSea

> Has anyone thought about setting up a protest in Wellington about the use of 1080? Surely there must be lots more hunters, trampers, animals lovers etc. Make some noise in there faces. 
> 
> I have been out of the country for a while so this might of already happened. Plus ive only read some of the 9 pages.


It could have been done, from what I've seen on the telly, the media focuses on people looking slightly alternative.
Given I'm white, two kids, short hair, with a business degree - they'll not listen to me.

Maybe this could work:
We could try using social media (facebook, ...) to inform, inspire people to take action against DoC, AHB, regional councils and the government.
It’s an easy process to share The Graf Boys youTube videos like this one, New Zealand Rivers - The Fight to Keep Them Poison-Free - YouTube   to your facebook page and or to pages like New Zealand 100% Pure (https://www.facebook.com/purenewzealand?fref=ts ).

Ideally these videos will go viral and the resulting international public condemnation of the 1080 & Brodifacoum poison madness will stop.

These books are brilliant to help with the understanding that deer and possum are not the evil  and the extent to which government agencies/ministries will go to feather their own nests while mislead (deceive) the public.

Dr Graeme Caughley's book "The Deer Wars - The History of Deer in New Zealand", or
"About Deer and Deer Stalking" by Tony Orman, or
"The Third Wave - Poisoning the Land" by Bill Benfield

Other videos you might like to share:
Poisoning Stewart Island - updated version, including marine impact - YouTube
Deer mass-poisoned - Taihape farmer speaks out - YouTube
Poisoning Paradise. Shocking 1080 Documentary - YouTube 

Good luck

----------


## Bavarian_Hunter

Its scary when hunters and greenies both want the same thing, but when they do I think you really need to step back and think 

"Fuck this might actually be something important that we as deadshit bureaucrats should pay attention to, who knows it could even get us elected  :Grin:  " - too far? haha

----------


## veitnamcam

> Its scary when hunters and greenies both want the same thing, but when they do I think you really need to step back and think 
> 
> "Fuck this might actually be something important that we as deadshit bureaucrats should pay attention to, who knows it could even get us elected  " - too far? haha


Will never happen  :Grin: 

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

----------


## Dundee

I've done my bit we have to stick together to ban this shit!

----------


## Nibblet

Can you please pan the camera to the right

----------


## Dundee

> Can you please pan the camera to the right


Like the title said "distressing" I will work on the angle Nibblet :Grin:   Hold ya horses might lock another one in there yet :Thumbsup:

----------


## Toby

Few more in there since I was there  :Grin:

----------


## Maca49

Forest and Bird rang looking for a donation the other night, i asked whats the point when theyre dropping 1080 everywhere, she moved on fast

----------


## Dundee

For @Nibblet  :Psmiley:

----------


## Maca49

Is that the chart you marked off the countdown to cow ownership day?

----------


## Dundee

> Is that the chart you marked off the countdown to cow ownership day?


All about how many tits to x :Grin:

----------


## Maca49

Sucker!

----------


## Nibblet

need more right, can only see 6 months worth

----------


## Dundee

> need more right, can only see 6 months worth


I will send it to you it is past the expiry date :Grin:

----------


## Maca49

All the tities have  rub marks Nibblet

----------


## sAsLEX

Has anyone got some TomTits, Robins, Kea, Kaka and put them in a cage and dropped some 1080 pellets in there? 

Surely this simple, and pretty f**kin horrible little experiment will highlight the atrocities to the public? 

DOC seem to always say 1080 improves birdlife and yet everyone has walked through silent bush

----------


## Savage1

> I've done my bit we have to stick together to ban this shit!
> Attachment 21985


Not trying to start a shitfight, but I'm 99% certain they've never had a single kiwi death attributed to 1080.

----------


## Savage1

> Has anyone got some TomTits, Robins, Kea, Kaka and put them in a cage and dropped some 1080 pellets in there? 
> 
> Surely this simple, and pretty f**kin horrible little experiment will highlight the atrocities to the public? 
> 
> DOC seem to always say 1080 improves birdlife and yet everyone has walked through silent bush


It would be a few offences to do that and easily countered by doing the same but with a stoat/possum/rat.

----------


## Gibo

> It would be a few offences to do that and easily countered by doing the same but with a stoat/possum/rat.


Not really a valid comment sorry Savage. We kill mustalids etc to stop them killing birds. But if we kill the birds in the process are we doing the right thing? All day long i will support a move to spend 1080 money on paying experts to kill the vermin. Jmo

----------


## Rushy

> I've done my bit we have to stick together to ban this shit!
> Attachment 21985


What no sunnies Dundee.

----------


## Rushy

> For @Nibblet 
> Attachment 21986


Nibblet doesn't need the encouragement Dundee.

----------


## Savage1

> Not really a valid comment sorry Savage. We kill mustalids etc to stop them killing birds. But if we kill the birds in the process are we doing the right thing? All day long i will support a move to spend 1080 money on paying experts to kill the vermin. Jmo


It's a very valid comment, it shows what happens when nothing is done, which is worse than 1080, as the experts doing the research show.

----------


## gimp

> Not really a valid comment sorry Savage. We kill mustalids etc to stop them killing birds. But if we kill the birds in the process are we doing the right thing? All day long i will support a move to spend 1080 money on paying experts to kill the vermin. Jmo



bykill of non-target species is significantly smaller than the impact on target pest species, net positive effect

----------


## Gibo

> It's a very valid comment, it shows what happens when nothing is done, which is worse than 1080, as the experts doing the research show.


Ok, i still think a change in tact is needed.

----------


## Savage1

> Ok, i still think a change in tact is needed.


I agree, but we need to find a better option before making the tact.

----------


## gimp

Tack. Like, the yachting term.

----------


## veitnamcam

> bykill of non-target species is significantly smaller than the impact on target pest species, net positive effect


So if it kills 40-80 percent of kea each drop and they are very slow breeders and rats mice stoats ferrits possum are much faster breeders how can there ever be a net gain for the kea?

----------


## Rushy

:36 1 11: 


> So if it kills 40-80 percent of kea each drop and they are very slow breeders and rats mice stoats ferrits possum are much faster breeders how can there ever be a net gain for the kea?


 :36 1 11:

----------


## Sniper

I think you will find there is someone making too much $$ for 1080 ariel drops to stop.
My father in-law has been in pest control for close to 50 years. He tells me stories of how some people look out for number 1 only, who have a lot of sway. Of corse that is his opinion. But there is a massive amount of coin thrown around each year, and you could argue that not a lot is really changing.
With places where we have rear and precious birds, there should only be trapping to avoid any by-kill. Im sure there is enough $$ to get people in there to make this happen. Would you see 1080 dropped on Motutapu if they found rats running around? Nup, more trapping.

----------


## Neckshot

> So if it kills 40-80 percent of kea each drop and they are very slow breeders and rats mice stoats ferrits possum are much faster breeders how can there ever be a net gain for the kea?


Your not going to be this quick and intelligence in June are you? We will not entertain you with our intelligence  :Grin: 

Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2

----------


## veitnamcam

> Your not going to be this quick and intelligence in June are you? We will not entertain you with our intelligence 
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2


Entertain some common sense then ? Sorry I should not have used numbers I know you have trouble with them  :Grin:

----------


## Gibo

> Tack. Like, the yachting term.


Tact as in short for tactic  :ORLY:   :Thumbsup:

----------


## gimp

> So if it kills 40-80 percent of kea each drop and they are very slow breeders and rats mice stoats ferrits possum are much faster breeders how can there ever be a net gain for the kea?



Oh god I've walked into a 1080 argument in the year 2014 what the fuck is wrong with me

Where do you get 40-80% from?




> Since 2008, 155 kea have been monitored through ten 1080 operations with 20 (12.9%) recorded fatalities. 
> 
> Recent research at Okarito showed that following the 1080 pest control operation in 2011 kea nesting success in the treated area increased from 51% to 100%. Nesting success of 38% was recorded in a nearby untreated area.  The following year 69% of nests in the treated area succeeded, compared to 1% in the untreated area.  The Kea Conservation Trust is carrying out similar nest monitoring at Otira.


More work needed on kea repellent: Media release 21 August 2013

----------


## veitnamcam

> Oh god I've walked into a 1080 argument in the year 2014 what the fuck is wrong with me
> 
> Where do you get 40-80% from?
> 
> 
> 
> More work needed on kea repellent: Media release 21 August 2013


Docs figures when they killed almost all of our tagged kea near Okorito.

----------


## gimp

> Docs figures when they killed almost all of our tagged kea near Okorito.


Doesn't reflect the average bykill and positive effects, and also doesn't reflect the fact that there is ongoing research to reduce the bykill, etc


Like, do you guys not get that DoC actually like native species and really want to help them, and are actively trying to.

----------


## veitnamcam

I don't doubt most of them do, however they don't make the decisions.

----------


## gimp

yeah someone at the top really fucking hates kea and is secretly trying to poison them all

----------


## veitnamcam

Or rather likes lining pockets more than a few kea

----------


## gimp

Allegations of corruption would be very serious and perhaps should be directed to the police if there's any real reason to suspect it

----------


## jord

The shit is disguisting. Look at the first photos on page one of this thread and tell me that is ok. I'm sure you could pay/subsidise hunters to cull possum for a comparable price without the fallout to the birds, deer and livestock.

----------


## Dynastar27

i think we need to ram 1080 down docs throat and see how they like it 

shame on you  :Pissed Off:

----------


## 7mmwsm

> The shit is disguisting. Look at the first photos on page one of this thread and tell me that is ok. I'm sure you could pay/subsidise hunters to cull possum for a comparable price without the fallout to the birds, deer and livestock.


The photos on page one are of dead deer. There is nothing in those photos which suggest they died of any particular cause. They are merely in a state of decomposition. 
Chances are they did die from 1080 poisining. But dont let emotive propoganda influence the truth.

----------


## jord

Valid. I guess time will tell. I know west coast hunters who have had many of their best spots dropped on and it's now silent bush. Hopefully DOC don't f*** it up and get it wrong. Here's hoping. 


Sent from my Browning

----------


## kiwijames

> But dont let emotive propoganda influence the truth.


 and ruin a perfectly (ir)rational argument???? Oh you're no fun

I'm off to build an all wooden skyscraper and to encourage those on the benefit to trap possums either side of the Southern Alps while they wait for their job to come to them.

----------


## jord

The benefit. Eww. Don't even loosely reference another government department in the same thread. Playing with fire that is....as brilliant as your jest may be. 


Sent from my Browning

----------


## nelpop

Good on Rick Cooper for the offer. I dont think DOC/AHB would be dumb enough to admint that they cocked up. The sooner they are put before the courts on this sort of crap the better in my book. Dont know how  but its got to happen sooner rather than latter.

----------


## Dynastar27

> Damn, I didn't think a woman was capable of a one word sentence until that Dougie.  I had thought that was the domain of blokes up to now.  I have seen you take interest in this subject previously and now you can see why some of us are so passionate in our opposition to 1080.


do they do 1080 drops where we go @Rushy

----------


## Dynastar27

> yeah someone at the top really fucking hates kea and is secretly trying to poison them all


wel apprently the kea is in the top 10 ugliest birds 

me personally i think they are awesome

----------


## Sniper

They are awesome D27

----------


## veitnamcam

> They are awesome D27


They sure are, unless they are pulling out your window rubber at the ski field... Then they are ugly little pricks!  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:

----------


## Rushy

> do they do 1080 drops where we go @Rushy


Yep. The last one was in November 2012.

----------


## Marty Foote

Hi Savage,

You are not starting a "shitfight" about kiwi's dying from 1080 as DOC recovered two young dead male kiwi, in the early days of 1080 in Northland. This set up the experiments with the died bate and then looking at the kiwi scats (shit to the likes of you and me) to see if they had eaten the dyed bait....The answer was yes the kiwi shit had dye in it and it was accepted that the two dead kiwis had died of 1080 poisoning....Both these kiwis had already been tested, before the dyed bait was laid, and been proven to be 1080 poisoned, by DOC, and then DOC covered up the fact that 1080 had proven to kill at least 2 kiwi.....Cheers....Marty

----------


## Marty Foote

This is crap....I have just spent half an hour working through the process to even get the opportunity to reply to savage about his bullshit belief that Kiwi do not get killed with 1080....And then I get chucked into a totally different thread altogether....If you guys can't get your shit together so that good bushman are not superseeded by idiots that believe that kiwi, and other birds, do not get killed with 1080...Then I don not even want to have anything to do with you....You can keep the company of DOC, AHB, TBFree, F&B, John Key, Helen Clarkem and all the other bullshit artists.....KIND REGARDS....Martin Foote

----------


## Rushy

Welcome to the forum Marty. You are not alone in your passion.

----------


## veitnamcam

@Marty Foote

Welcome to the forum, you are in the same thread but any new replys are added to the bottom naturally.

I think you were replying to savage1 on page 10, you can copy the post by using the "reply with quote" button.

----------


## 7mmwsm

> This is crap....I have just spent half an hour working through the process to even get the opportunity to reply to savage about his bullshit belief that Kiwi do not get killed with 1080....And then I get chucked into a totally different thread altogether....If you guys can't get your shit together so that good bushman are not superseeded by idiots that believe that kiwi, and other birds, do not get killed with 1080...Then I don not even want to have anything to do with you....You can keep the company of DOC, AHB, TBFree, F&B, John Key, Helen Clarkem and all the other bullshit artists.....KIND REGARDS....Martin Foote


Great way to start buddy. Hope you're not the sensitive type because some of the characters on here prefer to go straight for the jugular. Have fun.

----------


## Maca49

Yep as I've said before my mate shooting the Taupo Napier Road and living full time in the bush said when 1080was dropped, the bush went silent at night, no nothing! Total kill, he was devasted by the dead animals and birds including Kiwi, I have no reason not to believe him. I don't understand how Nick Smith sleeps at night, and I'd like to see DOC opened up for scrutiny, especially right at the top, there certainly should be more discussion before we pour poison on OUR country, Clean? Green? Yeah right

----------


## kiwijames

I understand DOC and AHB are now branching out given there proven track record of deceitfulness and deception. A mate of mine, well his mates best friend, who knows a guy who's neighbours buddy, who was sold a dog by a guy at the pub, well he told him that DOC were behind the take over of the Crimea for their buddy Vladimir Putin! Supposedly there is also an old guy in Gore who is now in the protection of AHB who was the JFK shooter on the grassy knoll. Supposedly JFK was going to ban 1080 exporting from the US!
FFS, wheres the jugular again?

----------


## gimp

> This is crap....I have just spent half an hour working through the process to even get the opportunity to reply to savage about his bullshit belief that Kiwi do not get killed with 1080....And then I get chucked into a totally different thread altogether....If you guys can't get your shit together so that good bushman are not superseeded by idiots that believe that kiwi, and other birds, do not get killed with 1080...Then I don not even want to have anything to do with you....You can keep the company of DOC, AHB, TBFree, F&B, John Key, Helen Clarkem and all the other bullshit artists.....KIND REGARDS....Martin Foote


lol

----------


## gimp

> FFS, wheres the jugular again?


Did you look under the large pile of money you've made from The Ten-Eighty Industry?

----------


## kiwijames

> Did you look under the large pile of money you've made from The Ten-Eighty Industry?


Good idea, forgot about there. I'll check once Ive finished fluoridating everyones water

----------


## Walker

http://www.1080science.co.nz/1080%20Its%20Chemistry.pdf

Anyone who reads the DOC researce papers will plainly see they dont stack up against know researced published data. It's very easy to setup expirements to suit the out comes you want. Your processes just have to up to standard to be 'peer' reviewed.

----------


## Maca49

> Good idea, forgot about there. I'll check once Ive finished fluoridating everyones water


It should be mandatory along with vaccinations, of course selected taps should have arsenic and others Tui :Thumbsup:

----------


## kiwijames

> It should be mandatory along with vaccinations, of course selected taps should have arsenic and others Tui


Close enough

----------


## veitnamcam

Im so glad I live in the only country in the world where there is no corruption,the government doesn't lie to the people,and can be trusted blindly to do whatever is best for me :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Rushy

> I understand DOC and AHB are now branching out given there proven track record of deceitfulness and deception. A mate of mine, well his mates best friend, who knows a guy who's neighbours buddy, who was sold a dog by a guy at the pub, well he told him that DOC were behind the take over of the Crimea for their buddy Vladimir Putin! Supposedly there is also an old guy in Gore who is now in the protection of AHB who was the JFK shooter on the grassy knoll. Supposedly JFK was going to ban 1080 exporting from the US!
> FFS, wheres the jugular again?


Mate that stuck a grin in my dial. Ever thought of a career in stand up?

----------


## Dundee

I might have to move to your country VC sounds good :Grin:

----------


## kiwijames

> Im so glad I live in the only country in the world where there is no corruption,the government doesn't lie to the people,and can be trusted blindly to do whatever is best for me


Didn't we just top an international survey that stated exactly that?

----------


## kawekakid

Doc and AHB are linked to Ospri with has a link to the USA  . If you buy Nait tags your are supporting 1080 because Ospri supply nait tags and the poison

----------


## kawekakid

Doc and AHB are linked to Ospri who are linked to the USA  .If you buy the Nait tags your are a supporter of poison .Ospri run both the 1080 poison and the National Animal Identification Tags and two directors also work for Landcorp

----------


## kiwijames

We need a "breaks out the commercial catering roll of tinfoil" smileys face thing

----------


## Maca49

> Im so glad I live in the only country in the world where there is no corruption,the government doesn't lie to the people,and can be trusted blindly to do whatever is best for me


Quit ya belly aching! There's lots of other countries that kill you to fix the problem!! I bitch and moan, but I ain't moving anywhere else. Well presently that is! :Thumbsup:

----------


## hunter308

> It should be mandatory along with vaccinations, of course selected taps should have Viagra and others *Waikato*


Fixed  :Grin:

----------


## Maca49

I'd go Waikato and fluoride, don't need the other YET!

----------


## Micky Duck

> The difference would be you would go to prison .


which would put out a legal president(spelt wrong???) so no one could use it again or face the same.......either its ok to use or its not.



that doesnt make sence without first bit......poisoning pet deer on purpose to film it.

----------


## Ingrid 51

For those attending the Sika Show in a couple of weeks, a line of protest to this poisoning could be to let DOC and/or any associated stands at said show, aware of your displeasure. I’m intending to do that and if enough people do complain, there may be a ‘carry back’ to various powers that be.

----------


## Cordite

> For those attending the Sika Show in a couple of weeks, a line of protest to this poisoning could be to let DOC and/or any associated stands at said show, aware of your displeasure. I’m intending to do that and if enough people do complain, there may be a ‘carry back’ to various powers that be.


 @Ingrid 51  Send them this post card:

----------


## jim160

> @Ingrid 51  Send them this post card:
> 
> Attachment 95510


I know this would cause an argument, but they would reply asking for scientific proof it was 1080 that killed it.
Was the animal analysed to prove it was 1080 that killed it.  

And what state would the bird and forest be in if they stopped using 1080.

Pretty sure that the rats, stoats and possums would probably kill more birds and plant life than 1080 ever would.

----------


## 40mm

> I know this would cause an argument, but they would reply asking for scientific proof it was 1080 that killed it.
> Was the animal analysed to prove it was 1080 that killed it.  
> 
> And what state would the bird and forest be in if they stopped using 1080.
> 
> Pretty sure that the rats, stoats and possums would probably kill more birds and plant life than 1080 ever would.


never mind which is more deadly to the birds etc. that 1080 is nasty stuff. 
Id prefer to pay more for a humane way of doing things.

----------


## jim160

I agree if there is a better way to get it doen, then by all means that's what we need.

But what I was getting at is that the possums, rats and stoats will kill heaps of birds and plant life all by themselves than 1080 ever would.  
The 1080 controls the pest numbers so that they can survive.

----------


## Cordite

> I know this would cause an argument, but they would reply asking for scientific proof it was 1080 that killed it.
> Was the animal analysed to prove it was 1080 that killed it.  
> 
> And what state would the bird and forest be in if they stopped using 1080.
> 
> Pretty sure that the rats, stoats and possums would probably kill more birds and plant life than 1080 ever would.


 @jim160

Re whether it was 1080, the image is Rushy's from a posting here in 2012.  He pictured half a dozen deer which had suddenly decided to drop dead in a 1080 drop zone.  Not much math required.

Anyway, no one says we should do nothing to balance things in the bush, but "pest" eradication is a pipe dream except in fenced sanctuaries -- the only type of place where 1080 has a non-futile role.

New Zealanders need to step back and admit there is a status quo and pest species are here to stay - be they maori, rats, pigs, pakeha, deer, opossums.  Everywhere there will be a need to keep on trapping and hunting to keep the balance, that's just clean and green.

----------


## 7mmwsm

Have a look in the "What pests did you bowl over today" (or what ever it's title is) thread. There are some quite graphic pictures of dead animals there too. 
I'd suggest that if you want to dish up shit on one lot of pictures, be prepared to take heat on others which we may deem acceptable.

----------


## Cordite

> Have a look in the "What pests did you bowl over today" (or what ever it's title is) thread. There are some quite graphic pictures of dead animals there too. 
> I'd suggest that if you want to dish up shit on one lot of pictures, be prepared to take heat on others which we may deem acceptable.


   @7mmwsm


Yes, I have noticed that thread.  Some of it is gross, but that said, none of those animals died a lingering death from a slow acting poison.  Bad taste portrayal of the dead animals bodies, that is a fair criticism of that thread.  You on the other hand hear some here say that they'll never have a photo taken with them sitting on top of a dead deer.  

But on the pest bowl over thread, I suggest we look at the underlying thinking.  I perceive most of the offensive picture posters do hold NZ conservationist views --- whether they realise it or not.

There is flawed NZ assumption that because certain species are exotic/non-indigenous they are "just [worthless] pests [not deserving respect]".  It's disturbing to encounter such attitudes when you did not grow up yourself with NZ conservationism indoctrination.

'Pest free NZ' ideology is alive, rotten, and with us everywhere: from 1080 drops to massive Tahr culls to pest-bowl-over threads.  But it is quite easy to debunk.

----------


## Maca49

The pity is when you scone a small animal with a hi speed projectile it is usually messy? Ive posted some grim pics on that thread, it was instant death and not being morbid or for any other reason, that’s the outcome from the cause! It’s the outcome I see no reason to not post?

----------


## Cordite

> The pity is when you scone a small animal with a hi speed projectile it is usually messy? Ive posted some grim pics on that thread, it was instant death and not being morbid or for any other reason, thats the outcome from the cause! Its the outcome I see no reason to not post?


  @Maca49

Yes, quick and painless, but therefore gory.  On the other hand, it is ever so polite and quiet, even bordering on vegan, to slowly kill a fellow creature by poisoning it.  There, the problem of the urban sheltered masses who vote for those who wield the green poison.

----------


## Maca49

Ah but they believe in a pest free NZ and there’s only one way, been achieving the ultimate since way back in the 50s? Duh fail? Oh that’s right there’s NO other way, why? Because we make to much money out of the current way, don’t fix what ain’t broken? I don’t mine killing animals for food or if they’re a pest, in a humane manner, they’d is sometimes messy!

----------


## johnd

I think the hype on 1080 is misguided.
The VERY first thing you have to realise is that it IS A POISON. That means it wont kill things politely and let them rest on a feathered pillow in a quiet room to slowly and eventually shuffle from this mortal coil. Its a POISON they all kill things badly.
Even when we were knocking off naughty prisoners for murder they used a POISON.
Its not just 1080 that should be getting the flak here. ALL poisons will kill thats what they do.
When people say we need a better poison I just roll my eyes.
What we do need is less predators of our wildlife, and a way to achieve that on a large scale. To hopefully prevent the decline of some of our endangered species.
Knocking 1080 is an easy cop out, yes we know its bad ... read the above, its a fucken poison!!
The most cost effective method to kill target species is to apply it well, and accurately. That is what needs to be focused on here. With all the anti 1080 protest thats gone on for the last umpteen years here in NZ, what has been achieved?

End of rant.

----------


## Maca49

> I think the hype on 1080 is misguided.
> The VERY first thing you have to realise is that it IS A POISON. That means it wont kill things politely and let them rest on a feathered pillow in a quiet room to slowly and eventually shuffle from this mortal coil. Its a POISON they all kill things badly.
> Even when we were knocking off naughty prisoners for murder they used a POISON.
> Its not just 1080 that should be getting the flak here. ALL poisons will kill thats what they do.
> When people say we need a better poison I just roll my eyes.
> What we do need is less predators of our wildlife, and a way to achieve that on a large scale. To hopefully prevent the decline of some of our endangered species.
> Knocking 1080 is an easy cop out, yes we know its bad ... read the above, its a fucken poison!!
> The most cost effective method to kill target species is to apply it well, and accurately. That is what needs to be focused on here. With all the anti 1080 protest thats gone on for the last umpteen years here in NZ, what has been achieved?
> 
> End of rant.


I dont think theres been a Lot of energy gone into alternatives, for obvious reasons.

----------


## Rushy

> I think the hype on 1080 is misguided.
> The VERY first thing you have to realise is that it IS A POISON. That means it wont kill things politely and let them rest on a feathered pillow in a quiet room to slowly and eventually shuffle from this mortal coil. Its a POISON they all kill things badly.
> Even when we were knocking off naughty prisoners for murder they used a POISON.
> Its not just 1080 that should be getting the flak here. ALL poisons will kill thats what they do.
> When people say we need a better poison I just roll my eyes.
> What we do need is less predators of our wildlife, and a way to achieve that on a large scale. To hopefully prevent the decline of some of our endangered species.
> Knocking 1080 is an easy cop out, yes we know its bad ... read the above, its a fucken poison!!
> The most cost effective method to kill target species is to apply it well, and accurately. That is what needs to be focused on here. With all the anti 1080 protest thats gone on for the last umpteen years here in NZ, what has been achieved?
> 
> End of rant.


John allow me to marginally modify your penultimate sentence to pose a slightly different question.  "With all the 1080 that's gone on (our forests) for the last umpteen years here in NZ, what has been achieved"?

I admit that I am one of the anti 1080 members of our society (not a protester mind) and my opposition to its application is perhaps different to many.  Yes I abhor the hideous deaths it causes but as you say, that is the nature of poisons the world over.  My opposition hinges on the huge sums of money that this country has spent repeating for several decades the application of 1080 as a solution to a problem when it demonstrably has not produced the intended result.  We should simply be smarter than that. It is dumb of us in the extreme to keep doing the same thing in the vain and glorious hope that it will produce a different result.

----------


## Woody

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLV1uNaTlA0

Take a look at this. 

I hope the national and international communities all see this.

 :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## BRADS

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLV1uNaTlA0
> 
> Take a look at this. 
> 
> I hope the national and international communities all see this.


I wish it was possible to have a rational discussion with you about this one Woody.
More to this story than 1080......

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

----------


## Marty Henry

I really fail to see why there so much emotion around 1080. We have been poisoning, gassing, shooting, and using dogs and ferrets on Peter, Flopsy, Mopsy, and Cottontail pretty much since they arrived and recently have added what you could call a viral biological weapon to that list but no one seems to mind.? Whats the difference.

----------


## Woody

> I wish it was possible to have a rational discussion with you about this one Woody.
> More to this story than 1080......
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


I think there is more to come yet. The full pre drop details to get things very clear. However, what is abundantly clear is that there are very serious consequences that can and do occur associated with 1080 use. The risk to our agricultural industry is severe imo.

----------


## Cordite

> I really fail to see why there so much emotion around 1080. We have been poisoning, gassing, shooting, and using dogs and ferrets on Peter, Flopsy, Mopsy, and Cottontail pretty much since they arrived and recently have added what you could call a viral biological weapon to that list but no one seems to mind.? Whats the difference.


 @Marty Henry

In my book, the difference is unnecessary suffering, read cruelty.  Bullets/gas/traps kill quickly, but 1080 can take several days, and some animals even recover.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> I think the hype on 1080 is misguided.
> The VERY first thing you have to realise is that it IS A POISON. That means it wont kill things politely and let them rest on a feathered pillow in a quiet room to slowly and eventually shuffle from this mortal coil. Its a POISON they all kill things badly.
> Even when we were knocking off naughty prisoners for murder they used a POISON.
> Its not just 1080 that should be getting the flak here. ALL poisons will kill thats what they do.
> When people say we need a better poison I just roll my eyes.
> What we do need is less predators of our wildlife, and a way to achieve that on a large scale. To hopefully prevent the decline of some of our endangered species.
> Knocking 1080 is an easy cop out, yes we know its bad ... read the above, its a fucken poison!!
> The most cost effective method to kill target species is to apply it well, and accurately. That is what needs to be focused on here. With all the anti 1080 protest thats gone on for the last umpteen years here in NZ, what has been achieved?
> 
> End of rant.


John you are not at all correct in your statement 'It's a poison they all kill things badly'. For many years Cyanide has been used in various forms for poisoning possums. It kills very quickly (seconds) by acting on the part of the brain that controls breathing and at the same time binding oxygen. Before that Strychnine was used for rabbits. It also killed quickly. Phosphorous was used to poison wild pigs. It killed slowly with an agonising death. 1080 is used because it is stable in cereal baits and persists in the bodies of poisoned creatures for secondary killing.
The biggest problem with poison dropped from the air over bush is that up to 50% lands and sits in trees were it targets the birds we are supposed to save. Don't believe the official line - for example that possums predate on birds - Possums cant digest meat. When did you ever see a possum eating road kill?  
Continuous cycles of poisoning and predator population recovery/explosion cannot go on forever. Permanent kill trap barrier lines and humane poison bait stations are the only long term solution for areas without exclusion fences.
Addressing your other false assertions above,
When chemical execution takes place a sedative is first administered along with a lignocaine drug. Even the Nazi's used a humane gas - Zyclon B which is Cyanide based.
Perhaps instead of 'rolling your eyes' you should open them. If you think that inflicting intentional cruelty and death to our fellow creatures is right, then you have something severely wrong with your moral compass my friend.

----------


## Woody

Originally Posted by Woody  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLV1uNaTlA0

Take a look at this. 

I hope the national and international communities all see this.


 @BRADS comment---I wish it was possible to have a rational discussion with you about this one Woody.
More to this story than 1080......

Well Brads, when you get around to feeling rational then; feel free to inform us all what the "more to this story" actually is. I for one would like to see some more clarity about the whole incident. If you can provide that it would be good.

----------


## 7mmwsm

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLV1uNaTlA0
> 
> Take a look at this. 
> 
> I hope the national and international communities all see this.


Quite obviously a major balls up on someones part. 
The fact that it was a 1080 operation is really irrelevant, any poison would have had the same effect.
Doc appear to be carrying the can for a contractor. Pest control operations of this nature are usually contracted out.
I don't go much on the ways the graf outfit milk the bits which suit them.
And I don't like the chances of those chooks in the back ground surviving, being allowed to free range in that toxic environment.

----------


## Cordite

About as acceptable as 1080?

https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&so...Wekh7sbP9wum_k

----------


## kotuku

think about this -how many decades have assorted NZ govt via their agencies tried to wipe out red deer thar chamois etc and the old red&co just quietly bounce back .how fucking long has this 1080 shit been thrown about after a zillion cyanide gin traps motor vehicle tyres and assorted lead blow jobs have attempted to cull the fucking feral australian import?????????? ,but wait.....theres another ....bloody great jacko up the treee filling his guts and snarling or taunting you.
humans wake the fuck up youll never .repeat never ever beat the animal kingdom for surviving in an onslaught in modern times.
    its simple -ol ma nature as shes proven time&time again will decide when their reign is over and extinction follows-not some computer educated spotty arsed wee human herbert or some semi erected(oops elected)humanic variety called a minister of the crown.
  oh hold on our very acidic astute academic colony will say im talking shit-up yours the truth hurts!

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## Woody

@kotuku. I heard parliament is buzzing lately.

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## Nick-D

> John you are not at all correct in your statement 'It's a poison they all kill things badly'. For many years Cyanide has been used in various forms for poisoning possums. It kills very quickly (seconds) by acting on the part of the brain that controls breathing and at the same time binding oxygen. Before that Strychnine was used for rabbits. It also killed quickly. Phosphorous was used to poison wild pigs. It killed slowly with an agonising death. 1080 is used because it is stable in cereal baits and persists in the bodies of poisoned creatures for secondary killing.
> The biggest problem with poison dropped from the air over bush is that up to 50% lands and sits in trees were it targets the birds we are supposed to save. Don't believe the official line - for example that possums predate on birds - Possums cant digest meat. When did you ever see a possum eating road kill?  
> Continuous cycles of poisoning and predator population recovery/explosion cannot go on forever. Permanent kill trap barrier lines and humane poison bait stations are the only long term solution for areas without exclusion fences.
> Addressing your other false assertions above,
> When chemical execution takes place a sedative is first administered along with a lignocaine drug. Even the Nazi's used a humane gas - Zyclon B which is Cyanide based.
> Perhaps instead of 'rolling your eyes' you should open them. If you think that inflicting intentional cruelty and death to our fellow creatures is right, then you have something severely wrong with your moral compass my friend.


There is literally video of possums raiding nests and eating fledglings. However their primary predation is of eggs. Ever notice how the drops are often based around this time of year? Increasing fledgling recruitment is the primary goal. Questioning the verifiable science isn't the way forward if you are the opposed to the use of 1080. I'm not sure where you get your assertion that they can't digest meat. The science suggests otherwise.

No one actually laying 1080 believes it is going to eliminate predators from an area, but it does(in most cases) knock numbers down enough to increase recruitment and end up with a net gain in native bird population. Its surely not perfect, and its definitely overused, (ie around accessible bush) but it is for the most part better than nothing.

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## Woody

Stimulates rat breeding by 2-300% very well too, then followed by increases in stoat populations ay. Really clever. :Wtfsmilie:

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## craigc

@ Moa Hunter

Do possums eat meat? Well...

I saw a possum eating meat (another possum) on Coast Road, Wainuiomata earlier this year. All that was left of the earlier possum was the leg that the possum I saw had in its mouth. 

I was surprised and tried to video it, but it took off. 

Im not a massive fan of 1080, but I cant support the alternative at this stage. 

One of the private blocks that I hunt is now out of action for a short period of time as the adjacent public land was 1080ed last week. Ive waited out the stand down before and theres no shortage of deer in the Hauragis now. 

Its a senseless debate to get in online and I totally understand the passion that anti 1080 people have for the current program. None of them seem to have a viable, cost effective alternative at this stage. 

Either way its sad.

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## kotuku

cyanide is not always instantaneous .it acts by blocking the ability of the blood streams red cells to attract /bind to haemaglobin =how you get your oxygen,but the actual blocking of this aint always gonna stop ya on the spot .the tactics of nazi concentration camp staff and reports of evidence when chambers were subsequently opened to dispose of victims ,plus reports of executions in the good ol US of A ,shows some horrendous agony before the doomed finally succumb.still overall if its achoice twixt cyanide and 1080 its pretty one sided.
 actually pity that vertical rabid hursuite four eyed greenie wasnt made to sit and watch some of these bloody animals in their death throes. how in christs name some thing that was NEVER democratically elected can grandiosely state she speaks for me is well beyond my comprehension.

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## 7mmwsm

> Stimulates rat breeding by 2-300% very well too, then followed by increases in stoat populations ay. Really clever.


So if I have a rat problem, I should leave them to reek havoc, because if I kill them I will have lots more than I started with?
I too have witnessed possums eating meat. The nose of a very nice Sika stag which was to be head skinned the next day. It was definitely a possum, because it cost him his life.

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## Cordite

Cyklon-B, 20-25minutes before terrified screams ceased.  CO from Russian tank engine exhaust, slightly quicker.

WW2 SOE agents issued potassium cyanide capsules were told they would work instantly and painlessly... well, you'd not want to believe otherwise in their shoes, would you? But in fairness it was a matter of within a few minutes.. though with pain, frothing at the mouth and all.

Bullets, kill-traps, quicker acting poisons remain the kindest options to keep predator populations in balance.  In the end, predators need predators, and short of introducing such species the NZ Hunter has his and her place.

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## Nick-D

> Stimulates rat breeding by 2-300% very well too, then followed by increases in stoat populations ay. Really clever.


Link? Not being snidey I am legitimately curious. If it's the article I think it is they conveniently left out the fact it was a mast year which lead to huge amounts of mice and rats. 

But yeah competitive dampening is a very real negative. And hard to predict side effect of 1080.

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## Woody

Go to 
1080 Science | Scientific findings on 1080

There is all the proof you need there. And apart from the plethora of science on that site, DoC recently admitted to needing annual doses of poison on Heaphy track because the rats keep bouncing back after 1080 drops. It's well known, but took uears for doc to admit the fact.

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## Woody

Go to 
1080 Science | Scientific findings on 1080

There is all the proof you need there. And apart from the plethora of science on that site, DoC recently admitted to needing annual doses of poison on Heaphy track because the rats keep bouncing back after 1080 drops. It's well known, but took uears for doc to admit the fact.

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## Woody

> @ Moa Hunter
> 
> Do possums eat meat? Well...
> 
> I saw a possum eating meat (another possum) on Coast Road, Wainuiomata earlier this year. All that was left of the earlier possum was the leg that the possum I saw had in its mouth. 
> 
> I was surprised and tried to video it, but it took off. 
> 
> Im not a massive fan of 1080, but I cant support the alternative at this stage. 
> ...


Well, Craig, the alternative has been available for as long as 1080. The problem is that it has had virtually nil financial support (deliberately) from successive governments, and yet has been for the most part self financed. Nor has it been properly set into a managed long term publicly funded industry , while 1080 has. It has virtually nil by kill of non target species and has the potential to do as good or better job than 1080 with great socio-economic benefits as well, and virtually no pollution of waterways. 
If trapping in its many forms was financed equally as 1080 is, there would be queue a mile long to take the job on. 
The naysayers claim people wouldn't work in the conditions, cant be trained quickly  etc. However, that is not true either, as has been proven repeatedly by the keeness of Fijian, and other pacific neighbors eagerly wanting to come here, and are now some of the best forest and farm and horticultural workers in our country.
ONE CAN ONLY CONCLUDE THAT THE SUPPRESSION OF THIS VERY VIABLE ALTERNATIVE TO 108O IS DELIBERATE.
Currently we are being hooked well over $60 per ha to finance 1080. A reasonable trapper can traverse a prepared line of 200 ha per day. 200 * $60 = $12,000.  When you look into the economics you can see why the 1080 industry and DoC suppress the truth.

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## Woody

When I refer to 200 ha line, it is a line 10km long, with traps at approx 100m intervals servicing out to 100m laterally. (1 ha is 100m * 100m and 1000m per km. Ball park figures , but it gives the general picture. Light rat traps can be additionally spaced. The opportunity exists for crew fly camps serviced by helicopters in rugged remote areas. Also a percentage of fur, skins and meat can be recovered as suitable.

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## abbo

apparently the press and some mps were told that the dead birds were not all from a 1080 drop area, and that some were roadkill, yet on the news, they had been all bludgened to death. my friend gave a statement to tv3, after they had filmed it the camera man said  what a good interview, but it was never shown on tv3.

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## Woody

Typical by govt controlled media.

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## ebf

Woody, is it $60 per ha per year ?

So then a 200ha trapper would stand to make $12 K per year ?

What are the setup costs for traps, and how often do they need to be replaced ?

Does the $60 figure for 1080 include monitoring ? Who would do this in the trapping alternative ?

How would you incentivise trappers to go into hard country as opposed to easy stuff close to town ? And how do you incentivise them when trapping starts to have a effect on the numbers that they are catching ?

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## rewa

Someone is making a shit-load of money out of this (Tull-Industries) The locals there (USA) are spewing over its manufacture, so close to housing. The rules around it are close to their Nuclear Industry. Many (read most ) US citizens, Dont know about our opposition to it. It's considered so dangerous, it was on the Banned Terrorist Subtances List, then got removed with no explanation. No country or facility (including Tull), is allowed to hold in one place, the amount the facilities here do, when it is pelletised -so WTF IS going on. Historically, outside of Us and OZ, its mainly been intended for humans; briefly in Iraq,seized by US and apparently never deployed, and Nazi Germany, where its use for killing people was discontinued because it was too dangerous.(they didnt invent it..they discovered it; German Military Chemists, WW2) This is seriously not the sort of shit we should "sprinkling' from the air!  I think Tull should be forced to "Open-its-books", to see Who, is being paid-off. After thinking about this for years, its the only thing that makes sense given the amount of opposition within DOC itself.

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## Marty Henry

So one trapper in theory could manage 2 sq km, meaning a drop like the Hunuas would need around 170 trappers plus equipment.
Last time there was a fur industry the trappers farmed it so as to have a steady income, how would it be different now.

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## 7mmwsm

Sugar is possibly the most lethal poison (deaths per capita) we have in NZ at the moment.

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## kiwijames

> Someone is making a shit-load of money out of this (Tull-Industries) The locals there (USA) are spewing over its manufacture, so close to housing. The rules around it are close to their Nuclear Industry. Many (read most ) US citizens, Dont know about our opposition to it. It's considered so dangerous, it was on the Banned Terrorist Subtances List, then got removed with no explanation. No country or facility (including Tull), is allowed to hold in one place, the amount the facilities here do, when it is pelletised -so WTF IS going on. Historically, outside of Us and OZ, its mainly been intended for humans; briefly in Iraq,seized by US and apparently never deployed, and Nazi Germany, where its use for killing people was discontinued because it was too dangerous.(they didnt invent it..they discovered it; German Military Chemists, WW2) This is seriously not the sort of shit we should "sprinkling' from the air!  I think Tull should be forced to "Open-its-books", to see Who, is being paid-off. After thinking about this for years, its the only thing that makes sense given the amount of opposition within DOC itself.


Soooo..... not only is there some evil 1080 conspiracy in NZ that has the power to manipulate successive governments and successive departments, theres also the next level of ultra-villain in the US that can override all democratic processes to continue to sell its super poison to the bottomless cash cow that is..... New Zealand.

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## Maca49

Isnt it a pity DOC will not open it doors and let everybody see what they are doing? The fact it is a closed shop and is fighting the 1080 opponents tells me something is wrong. It aint rocket science, just be open and allow independents to tell the truth, whatever that is?

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## Woody

On costs. The difference between trappers businesses today and 1080, is that 1080 is paid for by taxpayer ($57 per in 2010 per audited AHB costs) while trappers get nil as a general circumstance. If a trapping industry were to be proerly established and funded to the same degree as 1080 is, then it would be "no contest" ,in favour of trapping; and without all the harm, pollution, by-kill and controversy. The rougher 1080 aeas are costing upwards of $80 per ha and some areas are been done annually, others commonly on an ongoing 3 yearly cycle. 

The base example I have given was of imo a typical average line of 10km with a base 1080 equivalent cost applied, which amounts to $12,000. The normal working year, 5 days a week, is 234 days. Assume 200 days actually worked per man. 200 * 200 ha is 40,000 ha per man per year serviced / covered. 1080 equivalent costs is at least $40,000* $60 = $2.4 million currently invested, along with all the negative unavoidable effects and low manpower / employment benefits.
I am aware of a few artificially high trapping payments being offered by AHB/DoC and these ofers are being used to blindside politicians into beliving (wrongly) that trapping is a high cost and non viable alternative and should therefore be discounted.
Permanent established trap lines serviced on going by traps and trappers well managed as an established control method can replace 1080 practically anywhere.
Against this comonsense solution is the fact that deer, pigs, chamois, tahr etc would not be victims, much to the chagrin of DoC and Twig and Tweet.
The three yearly poison and hope cycle of destruction with 1080 would cease and be replaced by semi permanent medium to long term control by trapping, probably with some ferratox as an adjunct in certain situations. No reason why rodent and mustelid traps cannot be included along set permanent lines in conjunction with the larger possum traps.
The thing is, if the same money currently being invested in 1080 operations was diverted into a well set up trapping department, we would see an end to 1080 and an end to the crap that goes with it. @ebf, of course there would be monitoring and some admin and o/head costs, including helicopters to service flycamps in remote reas, but so what! Just divert existing investment fully into this alternative.
As to manpower, I already covered that issue in an earlier post. In my earlier life as a professional forest /logging production manager I established training gangs for exactly this purpose. It can be done, and an important aspect is to ensure regular employment for security of family income.
For far too long NZ animal control has been mismanged and the obvious and pre-existing alternative has been deliberately suppressed.

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## ebf

Woody, you are bemoaning the economics of 1080, I asked you some really basic questions about the economics of your alternative.

Could you please answer them in point-wise fashion.

200 days, assuming 8 hour day is 1600 hours. divide that into the 12K, and you get $ 7.5 per hour. So you are proposing paying thousands of people well below minimum wage for extremely hard work, in rough terrain, in all kinds of weather ? And we have not paid for the setup or monitoring costs yet. Something does not make sense...

P.S. I'm off to go tramping in the Tararuas, so will read your reply tomorrow.

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## doinit

> Sugar is possibly the most lethal poison (deaths per capita) we have in NZ at the moment.


To compare sugar with 1080 bud you would have to be as stupid as DOC.
Sugar is bad news yes ,it just takes a hell of a lot more and years to take it's toll. And just like 1080 it breaks down in water  right? 
yeah but it's still there eh.
I've said it before and I'll say it again ..unless you have been in the 1080 industry then you only know what you have been spun.

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## Marty Henry

Some good points woody, but are the ahb and doc the same for funding?. I pay an ahb levy in my regional rates, and have 75 bait stations on my property the position of which are all gps recorded. Talking with the applicators they do not do the doc land in the district. Leg trap monitor lines have failed to catch anything for the last 3 years apart from some hedgehogs and a baby goat. There was a 1080 drop done here maybe 10-15 years ago on one huge scrub block after tb was found on neighboring farms. Since then the bait station program has been regularly pursued and last year we moved to 2 yearly testing.
The baits are brodi, but some ferratox was used last year. They dont like ferratox if there are rats as they chew the baits but their mouths dont crush the capsules.
No effort is made to harvest fur obviously and the stations are only checked annually, the old mouldy bait removed and buried and replaced with fresh.
You seem to be proposing a semi self funding harvest system which may work in more accessible areas but for a ground based operation in remote areas the ahb model would be more effective I feel.

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## Woody

200 days at $12,000 per day . C'mon ebf. Do the math properly. The cost equivalent at 1080 rates is $12,000 (per 200 ha line). Even if you assume that a line is serviced three times over a three man day period the earning is $4000 per day, less servicing costs. In a 40,000 ha block, I would be looking at a 10 to 20 man crew and it would be serviced in 600 man days @ 3 days per line / 20 men = 30 days for $2,400,000. In fact I reckon it could be done for less cost than that, but that is the transferred 1080 investment in todays figures.
Also there are heaps of areas that are tracked and roaded where costs would be considerably less, such that the saving in these easy areas would offset the higher costs incurred in very remote and rugged areas.

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## Woody

@Marty Henry.  It's "horses for courses" adaptations. Your point illustrates clearly that once control is established, then servicing becomes quite cheap. The thing is, that trapping can replace 1080 to knock down numbers and then the areas serviced on an ongoing basis. I don't believe the poison advocates are so dumb as to not realise trapping can replace 1080; therefore the current regime must be deliberate, and for the wrong reasons in my view.
The question of funding to AHB and DoC is really not an issue because at the end of the day all the money is provided by us, the taxpayer, just channelled slightly differently by the bean counters and bs artists. I all comes out of the same pot; us.

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## Nick-D

> To compare sugar with 1080 bud you would have to be as stupid as DOC.
> Sugar is bad news yes ,it just takes a hell of a lot more and years to take it's toll. And just like 1080 it breaks down in water  right? 
> yeah but it's still there eh.
> I've said it before and I'll say it again ..unless you have been in the 1080 industry then you only know what you have been spun.


Not really man. There is a tonne of independent, peer reviewed science you can read. Pretty hard to 'spin' that. The reading I have done paints a grim, non perfect but ultimately beneficial outcome for our native species. The spin by either side of the argument simply focuses on the positive or negative while ignoring the other.

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## Woody

@Nick-D. A load of diversion. 
If people want to study the science then go to 1080 Science | Scientific findings on 1080

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## Woody

@Nick-D. A load of diversion. 
If people want to study the science then go to 1080 Science | Scientific findings on 1080

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## Nick-D

> @Nick-D. A load of diversion. 
> If people want to study the science then go to 1080 Science | Scientific findings on 1080


Mate that site isn't science. It's opinions with references to studies. I've read plenty on there.

 She makes good points, but often attributes correlation as causation, and makes ideological leaps of faith. You have to understand it is just one person's opinion.

If you read the references often they don't even support the argument she is making.

 It's always good to question and review but you are only looking at the issue from one perspective. There are a platitude of resources to read and plenty of scientific findings to base your opinion on.

That site is the anti 1080 equivalent of the doc articles. Reference what's useful disgard the rest.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

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## Woody

Here is a straightforward challenge to the powers that be.
1  Create an independent department free of pollutants such as fanatical twig and tweeters etc. This new department could be accountable to Dept Internal Affairs and staffed by independent thinking pragmatists.
2  The department will call for proposals from interested parties to control possums rats and stoats in two sample areas; one of which will be a remote rugged area such as Te Urewera and the other to be a tracked area such as marginal farmland or exotic forest , for example Kaingaroa. Each area to be of equal size approximating 40,000 hectares. 
2a The proposals are to not include any aerial applications of 1080 or brodifacoum or similar poisons.
2b  The price to undertake the operation will be a total of $4.8 million  (the equivalent cost of 1080 operations) and is repeatable and refinanced on a three year cycle.
3  Proposals will be reviewed and the best proposal will be accepted for a fixed guaranteed fee of $4.8 million payable by the NZ government over three years with a renewal for period 3-6th year.
4  Performance monitoring will be independently conducted and normal penalties applied where contract obligations are not met.

I'd  bet there would be some very innovative proposals including several viable solutions.

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## Woody

> Mate that site isn't science. It's opinions with references to studies. I've read plenty on there.
> 
>  She makes good points, but often attributes correlation as causation, and makes ideological leaps of faith. You have to understand it is just one person's opinion.
> 
> If you read the references often they don't even support the argument she is making.
> 
>  It's always good to question and review but you are only looking at the issue from one perspective. There are a platitude of resources to read and plenty of scientific findings to base your opinion on.
> 
> That site is the anti 1080 equivalent of the doc articles. Reference what's useful disgard the rest.
> ...


Not true. A very large amount of the data, especially in the index section is derived directly from DoC's own science, plus Landcare Research , some of which had never been made available to the public.  Of course, we know it is in the interests of the establishment and the twig and tweeters to try to decry this valuable information base (probably the best in NZ) because it is comprehensive and honest.

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## doinit

> Not really man. There is a tonne of independent, peer reviewed science you can read. Pretty hard to 'spin' that. The reading I have done paints a grim, non perfect but ultimately beneficial outcome for our native species. The spin by either side of the argument simply focuses on the positive or negative while ignoring the other.


Nick-D I spent several yrs in both the Factory and out in the field,1080 is bad news full stop.
Seeing what it can do first hand is disgusting to say the least. There are many like myself that regret ever having to work with the shit.
DOC for one completely ignore the extreme hazards of 1080,along with all the other poison outfits.
Some of the lies you here from the likes of F&B are absolutely outright dangerous,they should be taken to task over that alone.
I don't need someone like yourself telling me right from wrong concerning 1080,you learn a lot over yrs of being a approved operator.
I know there are scientific reports on all the true (bad ) things associated with 1080 and things the public should be warned about and those aren't from DOC's own scientist's. 
These poison crazy groups are doing NZ more harm than good....and they know that.

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## Nick-D

> Nick-D I spent several yrs in both the Factory and out in the field,1080 is bad news full stop.
> Seeing what it can do first hand is disgusting to say the least. There are many like myself that regret ever having to work with the shit.
> DOC for one completely ignore the extreme hazards of 1080,along with all the other poison outfits.
> Some of the lies you here from the likes of F&B are absolutely outright dangerous,they should be taken to task over that alone.
> I don't need someone like yourself telling me right from wrong concerning 1080,you learn a lot over yrs of being a approved operator.
> I know there are scientific reports on all the true (bad ) things associated with 1080 and things the public should be warned about and those aren't from DOC's own scientist's. 
> These poison crazy groups are doing NZ more harm than good....and they know that.


Man I get what you're saying. I'm just saying there is plenty of quality information on which to derive an opinion from. You don't have to be an operator to be well educated in the subject. 

 It's entirely possible(if a bit long winded) to learn about 1080 without resorting to propaganda, be it forest and bird or Clyde Graf.

I've seen the effects. It's nasty. I would rather not see it on our landscape. But it's not as cut and dry as many make out

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

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## Nick-D

> Not true. A very large amount of the data, especially in the index section is derived directly from DoC's own science, plus Landcare Research , some of which had never been made available to the public.  Of course, we know it is in the interests of the establishment and the twig and tweeters to try to decry this valuable information base (probably the best in NZ) because it is comprehensive and honest.


Yeah man I get ya. She references real studies. I've read through the vast majority of that site.

However the information and summaries presented around those references are her opinion. She cherry picks what supports her agenda and discards what doesn't. That doesn't mean she is always wrong, but it's important to understand the difference between scientific study and journalistic review. 

As it is curated by her, and presented with an obvious agenda it is by definition opinion and not scientific theory.

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## Woody

@ Nick-D.  "As it is curated by her, and presented with an obvious agenda it is by definition opinion and not scientific theory."

That is a gross and unjustified statement. There are at least three PHd's contributing on that site, along with others experienced in forestry and long 'real" forest and mountain experience, each of whom expresses detailed conclusions based on the available data. (Much of which derived from information previously withheld from public scritiny by gov't departments and gov't financed NGO's.)  These are independent scientists who have the guts to provide balanced analysis of the data without the pressures of standover by employers such as DoC or "contracted scientists" ; nor are they bound by the confidentiality clauses contained in DoC and AHB employment or contract terms. The data and reports on that site are not biased and are therefore much more acceptable than DoC and AHB and F&B spin. 

AGAIN, I challenge the powers that be:__Here is a straightforward challenge to the powers that be.

1 Create an independent department free of pollutants such as fanatical twig and tweeters etc. This new department could be accountable to Dept Internal Affairs and staffed by independent thinking pragmatists.

2 The department will call for proposals from interested parties to control possums rats and stoats in two sample areas; one of which will be a remote rugged area such as Te Urewera and the other to be a tracked area such as marginal farmland or exotic forest , for example Kaingaroa. Each area to be of equal size approximating 40,000 hectares.

2a The proposals are to not include any aerial applications of 1080 or brodifacoum or similar poisons.

2b The price to undertake the operation will be a total of $4.8 million (the equivalent cost of 1080 operations) and is repeatable and refinanced on a three year cycle.


3 Proposals will be reviewed and the best proposal will be accepted for a fixed guaranteed fee of $4.8 million payable by the NZ government over three years with a renewal for period 3-6th year.

4 Performance monitoring will be independently conducted and normal penalties applied where contract obligations are not met.

I'd bet there would be some very innovative proposals including several viable solutions.

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## Cordite

Maybe it is worth considering the obvious benefit of the "Pest Free New Zealand" dream.  

It's a vegan wet dream of no top predators being needed anymore, and getting rid of hunting.

It is of course impossible, but the fantasy is cherished and so lives on.

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## 7mmwsm

> To compare sugar with 1080 bud you would have to be as stupid as DOC.
> Sugar is bad news yes ,it just takes a hell of a lot more and years to take it's toll. And just like 1080 it breaks down in water  right? 
> yeah but it's still there eh.
> I've said it before and I'll say it again ..unless you have been in the 1080 industry then you only know what you have been spun.


Whoops, wrong thread (my previous comment). Should have been in campfire humour you think?
And no I wouldn't swap sugar for 1080.

----------


## Nick-D

> @ Nick-D.  "As it is curated by her, and presented with an obvious agenda it is by definition opinion and not scientific theory."
> 
> That is a gross and unjustified statement. There are at least three PHd's contributing on that site, along with others experienced in forestry and long 'real" forest and mountain experience, each of whom expresses detailed conclusions based on the available data. (Much of which derived from information previously withheld from public scritiny by gov't departments and gov't financed NGO's.)  These are independent scientists who have the guts to provide balanced analysis of the data without the pressures of standover by employers such as DoC or "contracted scientists" ; nor are they bound by the confidentiality clauses contained in DoC and AHB employment or contract terms. The data and reports on that site are not biased and are therefore much more acceptable than DoC and AHB and F&B spin. 
> 
> AGAIN, I challenge the powers that be:__Here is a straightforward challenge to the powers that be.
> 
> 1 Create an independent department free of pollutants such as fanatical twig and tweeters etc. This new department could be accountable to Dept Internal Affairs and staffed by independent thinking pragmatists.
> 
> 2 The department will call for proposals from interested parties to control possums rats and stoats in two sample areas; one of which will be a remote rugged area such as Te Urewera and the other to be a tracked area such as marginal farmland or exotic forest , for example Kaingaroa. Each area to be of equal size approximating 40,000 hectares.
> ...


I think its a good resource and nice to have. But it is still opinion. 
You could extrapolate enough data from the references on that site to create a succinct argument supporting the use of 1080. If you think that site is free of bias I believe you are mistaken. It is well presented and a good resource, but should no be your only source of information. But clearly we disagree so probably not any point in arguing.

I do wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment that if we committed real resource into finding an alternative we could drastically reduce the numbers of 1080 drops needed to sustain wildlife populations.

I think the best model would be to lead the charge as hunters for conservation. Real science funded and implemented by us. Conservation from the pockets of the lands traditional custodians. I imagine a pay to play conservation model re the US would come up against much resistance, however IMO it is the best chance we have to maintain the hunting we love so dearly.

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## Maca49

> @ Nick-D.  "As it is curated by her, and presented with an obvious agenda it is by definition opinion and not scientific theory."
> 
> That is a gross and unjustified statement. There are at least three PHd's contributing on that site, along with others experienced in forestry and long 'real" forest and mountain experience, each of whom expresses detailed conclusions based on the available data. (Much of which derived from information previously withheld from public scritiny by gov't departments and gov't financed NGO's.)  These are independent scientists who have the guts to provide balanced analysis of the data without the pressures of standover by employers such as DoC or "contracted scientists" ; nor are they bound by the confidentiality clauses contained in DoC and AHB employment or contract terms. The data and reports on that site are not biased and are therefore much more acceptable than DoC and AHB and F&B spin. 
> 
> AGAIN, I challenge the powers that be:__Here is a straightforward challenge to the powers that be.
> 
> 1 Create an independent department free of pollutants such as fanatical twig and tweeters etc. This new department could be accountable to Dept Internal Affairs and staffed by independent thinking pragmatists.
> 
> 2 The department will call for proposals from interested parties to control possums rats and stoats in two sample areas; one of which will be a remote rugged area such as Te Urewera and the other to be a tracked area such as marginal farmland or exotic forest , for example Kaingaroa. Each area to be of equal size approximating 40,000 hectares.
> ...


 @Woody its a case of heads up arse and no competition :O O: theyed hate competition, the one thing that sorts, also unqualified ministers don't help, lobbied to death no doubt.

----------


## Woody

He he. Yep. Reminds me of a poster I brought back from when I was in logging camps in BC. It said; "don't steal; the government hates competition."
I am in no doubt the citizens of NZ are being burgled big time.

----------


## Woody

Here is a pretty decent summation as many see it.

"OPINION OF A 1080 NUTTER" 
by Bill Wallace, founder of the Ban 1080 Party
Published in the Greymouth Star, 21 September, 2108

"I became seriously opposed to the aerial use of 1080 in 2014.
At the time I was flying DoC staff and contractors into Kahurangi National Park to monitor rat numbers.
Those DoC workers were recording very low rat numbers in the remote valleys that had never been poisoned before, and could not sleep for Kiwi at night, and reported kaka and kakariki in the bush around them, as well as no shortage of blue duck.
When I asked the local biodiversity officer why they would poison this central area of the Park with virtually no rats, he responded, “We’ve got that much money for 1080, we don’t know where else to spread it.”

With a B.Sc. in Ecology, I decided to read the DoC science, and ask some official questions of DoC.
I asked which bird species were to be monitored, and where the unpoisoned control areas for comparison would be. Three separate DoC officers received the same questions; three different answers were received.
Greg Napp (13/4/2014 DoC) said “it is almost impossible to find comparable “control areas” because of Kahurangi’s unique characteristics'.
Jan Hania (6/6/2014 DoC) said the Haast Range and Lake Roe in Fiordland were the control sites.
Steve Deverell (July 2014 DoC) said that Abbey Rocks and Mt Stanley were the control sites.
But none of the same species were studied at both sites so any comparisons would be meaningless. Perhaps DoC staff should talk to each other before they just “make stuff up”.

DoC went ahead with poisoning the entire Park, in spite of low rat numbers. DoC’s own Compulsory Standards (June 2014) prevents 1080 drops unless rat monitoring is at 20%. The only exception to the Compulsory Standard is expert judgment of benefit to the birds.
When I requested the expert judgment that had convinced DoC to proceed ,Nelson’s DoC conservator said “The technical advice was given verbally and therefore a copy cannot be made available” (OIA reply Dec 18 th 2014)
In 2014 DoC claimed 95% of rats had been killed, and 85% of stoats. When I requested the rat and stoat data, it was clear there was only a 65% drop in rat numbers averaged over the poisoned valleys, and no stoats had been counted either before or after the drop. Rat numbers dropped also in the unpoisoned valleys as well, which happens every winter anyway. (OIA reply 20/11/15)
Also the 29 rock wren being monitored on Grange Range all disappeared at the time of the 2014 1080 drop, DoC attributed that total loss to a heavy snow fall. Now I can’t prove that these insectivorous birds died from secondary poisoning (1080 was designed as an insecticide), but neither can DoC prove it was snow.
And if the snow was responsible for 100% loss of rock wren, then it would also probably account for the 65% drop in rat numbers.(Stuff 17/1/2015)
There is no doubt in my mind that DoC manipulate their figures, they exaggerate their successes, and deny or ignore their failures.
DoC’s latest research paper on 1080 in alpine areas (O’Donnell, Weston, Monks 2017), concludes the evidence for success is anecdotal, but that is enough to justify continuation. Anecdotal means hearsay, and reading that paper, the hearsay comes from DoC’s most pro-1080 staff. Hardly indisputable, independently peer reviewed science.
What about the hearsay from WARO operators in Fiordland, the valleys recently poisoned, not a single kea at the gut heaps, whereas in the unpoisoned valleys, about 20 kea at each gut heap. 
And the 8 resident kea at the Kepler hut, which disappeared immediately after that drop.
When frustrated DoC staff do “out” their department’s cover-ups, and release the horrendous kea deaths (9 out of 27 Franz, 7 out of 11 Okarito), DoC come up with completely unsubstantiated claims about modification of behavior by humans, and always include photos of beautiful live kea, never the sad dead kea
which they recover and photograph. Convert these losses to percentages and you realize the 95% reduction in kea numbers over the 65 years we’ve been using 1080, is largely attributable to 1080.
The recent ZIP double dose, double strength insanity in the Perth River in South Westland, which is as remote as you can get, recorded 8 out of 11 kea had interacted with the pre-feed baits - no human conditioning possible here. DoC’s response was to shoot over 100 tahr, and leave their cut open bodies on
prominent ridges to hopefully attract the kea away from the poison baits. (ZIP 11/7/2018)
The supposed careful timing of the drops is also a myth, the idea is just before the birds nest when predator numbers are building. In late spring 2016, the Kaikoura earthquake followed by the Banks Peninsula fires tied up virtually all the heavy lift helicopters, and DoC were still dropping 1080 well into following winter, long after the birds had hatched and fledged, and rodent numbers would have been dropping naturally as they do each winter.

And the science is that the rat number always recover quickly after the drops anyway. The only science I can find on rat’s genetic resistance found the dose that killed 74% of rats (about DoC’s success rate), 4 generations on of survivors getting the same dose, was only killing 17% of rats.( Howard, March et al 1973)
Is DoC simply creating Super Rat.
DoC are now planning aerial drops every year on the Heaphy Coast, “each pest control operation will provide a window for native species to breed and thrive that lasts around 3 to 6 months before rat numbers begin to build again” (DoC
7/9/2018)
In Sept 2016, Civil Aviation released an urgent notice to helicopter operators to check their hooks, as there had been a spate of recent releases of poison buckets ( Continuing Airworthiness Notice - 05-005 Cargo Hook System ... 13/9/2016)
My understanding is that 3 buckets were dropped that year, 2 of them not recovered, so two 1 tonne heaps of 1080 poison in the bush or a river.
An OIA to then DoC Minister, Maggie Barry about these incidents, elicited this response “I am informed that the then Minister of Conservation was advised of one incident involving a departmental operation that occurred on 2 November 2013.”
The reason DoC don’t consider it an incident, is that the heaps are within an area consented for poison drops. Convenient logic, or just denial of the bad stuff ?
Perhaps the cruelty is the biggest concern for a lot of NZer’s. 1080’s cruelty ranking is 6, but because that is lower than the 8 rating of brodifacoum (which DoC also drops from the air), the claim is that 1080 is “relatively humane”. There is no 10 on the scale, so 9 is the most horrendous torturous death imaginable.
Our Govt’s scientists fed 1080 to 38 impounded dogs, and then recorded their deaths “continual barking and howling, the dog becomes over-active, and behaves as if terrified, but appears to be unaware of its surroundings. There are tonic convulsions (sustained muscle contractions) followed by running movements. Vomiting is common,…death is typically the result of respiratory paralysis. Death is never cardiac in origin, the hearts slows but continues beating for some time after respiration fails”
If Jan Wright and successive Ministers can defend this as “humane”, then they are as cold-hearted and callous as the scientists who administer the poison and witness the deaths, pretending this is conservation science.
New Zealand’s much touted Animal Welfare Act, has a special clause 30A which allows DoC and it’s contractors to “wilfully and recklessly ill-treat wild animals or animals in wild state”.

Gareth Hughes for the Green Party was last week attacking chicken meat processors for their animal welfare abuses (Stuff 10/9/2018), but across the hall, his associate Eugene Sage, is gleefully preparing for the torturous deaths of tens of thousands of mammals and birds in total breach of the Act, if it wasn’t for Sect 30A.
The Green Party’s close relative, Forest and Birds enthusiasm for 1080 suprises me. I wonder how many of their wealthy donors would revisit their bequests if they realized the level of support for this cruelty. If you’re about to write your will, Women’s Refuge or SPCA would seem much more deserving and caring organisations.
And the poor old possum, portrayed by DoC as a savage predator, but with the teeth arrangement and gut of a typical herbivore.
OSPRI claim possums spread Tb to cattle, but there is no evidence to support this claim. The Broadcasting Standards Authority found OSPRI guilty of false advertising as they could not produce a shred of evidence to support their claims.
(Herald 28/7/2016)
The actual transfer of Tb around NZ has always been on the back of trucks, and the recent M.bovis debacle has exposed how appallingly inept OSPRI’s management has been of the NAIT tracking system, which helps explains why Tb has never been completely eradicated.
So, while the taxpayer is forking out $1 Billion in a probably doomed attempt to clean up M.Bovis, OSPRI continues to collect 3.8c/Kg milk solids and $17/head cull subsidy from farmers, and wastes this $65M/yr on 1080 poison.
Of 124,000 possums autopsied in the last decade, 54 had Tb. In the same time frame, Landcare infected about 200 possums with Tb and released them into the wild in a bizarre experiment, which showed infected possums didn’t move beyond their home range before dying, further proof there is no possibility of possums transferring Tb between regions.

As for the threats to DoC, who doesn’t know someone who’s had a wheel come loose? All DoC’s claims of threats seem planned to attract attention away from the real arguments about the cruelty and stupidity of their continued drops. An OIA revealed there have been exactly SIX cases of threats reported to NZ Police since March 2016. And the details of these 6 cases - in 2 incidents the perpetrator was apparently identified and received a formal warning from Police. 3 cases were phone calls, 1 was a ‘flyer’ left on a DoC vehicle. None have progressed to prosecution. (OIA Police 27/8/2018).

DoC’s exaggerated escalation of the threat level, simply portrays their staff as pathetic paranoid poisoners, barricading themselves away in their offices, drawing lines on maps for the next 1080 drop, to justify their share of the budget.
And the repeated claim that the 1080 in the infant milk formulae was an anti-1080 protestor. Jeremy Kerr was a contractor to DoC, producing poison products of his own, so why do media, politicians and DoC keep repeating this blatant lie ?

A police investigator in that operation, Derek Shaw, said “I have to say that 95% of the anti-1080 group were just genuine good New Zealanders that were taking a well thought-out position on an issue and were following their passion. "I’ve got a new respect for the anti-1080 community because of their
genuineness and their honesty and their passion. I haven’t got an opinion one way or the other [about 1080] but for them, I can see that on the whole they’re not some kind of terrorist group or anything like that and were good to deal with."
(Stuff 22/10/2016 Thank you Derek)
And the 25,000,000 birds eaten a year by introduced predators. That figure comes from the back of an envelope calculation, 5 breeding pairs per hectare, 70% nests fail, 60% of failures because of predators, so 42% nesting failure to predators multiplied up by average clutch size, and hectares gives about 25 million.

I’ve researched DoC’s papers and find that their scientists believe that given their small sample sizes, and their lack of scientific controls, over 20% of birds could be killed in 55% of 1080 drops (Veltman Westbrooke 2010), so that’s 2 birds out
of 10 per hectare, that’s 40% nesting failure (assuming the 2 were from different breeding pairs) so on DoC’s own figures, again multiplied up by average number of eggs laid, that’s potentially 25,000,000 eggs not laid because of 1080.
As for the myth that 1080 is somehow selective, Professor Ian Shaw (NZ’s leading toxicologist) says “if anyone tells you that 1080 can discriminate between pests and native animals they are talking complete and utter rubbish.”(Stuff
March 13, 2015)
And how much of the DoC budget is wasted on the slick PR propaganda machine, churning out the glossy Battle for the Birds brochures for each of the drops ? These brochures always include photos of kea and rock wren as species being “saved”, but DoC’s Graeme Elliot tells us “The 1080 drop in 2014 killed four Keas and led to the death of Rock Wrens” (Fairfax Nov 16, 2015) It wasn’t just 4 kea. It was 4 kea wearing radio transmitters, 10% of the radio-tagged kea. In previous poisoning drops DoC have managed over 30% kill of kea. If 4000 kea were exposed to those massive drops, DoC killed at least 400, possibly a thousand, kea.

And my favorite line, quoted by successive ministers is “it’s the best tool we’ve got in our toolbox”. Well, if I was looking for a builder, and the best tool he had was a 65 year old chisel, with a broken handle, and a blunt rusted edge, I’m not going to give him $500 Million a year, and say “Carry On”
The anger against 1080 in rural communities is palpable, the majority of farmers I know, don’t believe for a minute, that 1080 is doing anything to protect them from Tb. Many rural families in our area (as do we personally) live largely on venison and wild pork. There’s no night clubs out here. Apart from rugby, our young men hunt on their weekends, but this recreational pursuit is disappearing, and many of them have witnessed the horrific loss of a dog to this poison.
And we also notice the loss of our native predators after the 1080 drops, no longer the haunting call of the morepork and the searching glide of the falcon around our home, and the shrill cry of the kea that were on Mt Burnett, until the first 1080 drop.
Am I a conspiracy theorist, I don’t believe so, but an old retired lawyer acquaintance of mine talked about the “collective institutionalized atychiphobia” he encountered when working for regional councils. It’s the fear of being wrong, and at a Departmental level it’s being the first to put your hand up and question what you’re doing, or admitting you’re wrong. The collective job security mentality kicks in, and the Council or Government department will go to Court, or employ the spin doctors, rather than accept liability.
The flood gates on the 1080 myth will open, it will be as big as the leaky home scandal when it breaks, but nobody will ever be held responsible, and as it’s all taxpayer’s billions, apart from the poor old farmers levies, no individual will be financially disadvantaged.
So, write us all off as nutters and extremists if you will, but don’t be surprised by the fervor of our hatred for this cruel indiscriminate toxin, and our disdain and lack of respect for DoC."

Bill Wallace
Founder Ban1080 Party
B.Sc.
Collingwood.

----------


## ebf

Woody, I am back from my tramp  :Thumbsup: 

You should really stick to anti-1080 activism and leave economics to other people ...

So the $ 60 / ha figure. That's maybe a bit on the high end (considering the source), some of the publicly available estimates are as low as $ 12 / ha. But let's not quible, I expect the real amount is somewhere in the middle...

Now the core problem with your argument. You somehow multiply that by your 200 ha example, and come up with $ 12 K PER DAY !!! Only one minor problem, 1080 is not applied daily. It is not even applied monthly or annually to the same area. Anyone who has had their favorite hunting area go through a stand-down period will know this very well. The reality is that 1080 is applied maybe once every 3 years for rats and 5 years or longer for possums. So even at $ 60 per ha, you are looking at an *annual* cost of $ 20 / ha or less. And by the way, that includes pre-bait and monitoring. It is the total operational cost.

All of this is easy to check. The EPA publishes annual info on the area in ha that was treated with 1080. The annual budgets for DOC / AHB / OSPRI etc are not that hard to find.

Anyone with half a brain should realize that trying to equate the effect of a a single application of 1080 to a couple of days worth of trapping is laughable at best, and that is ignoring your "creative" maths  :Grin:

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## BRADS

> Woody, I am back from my tramp 
> 
> You should really stick to anti-1080 activism


His mates have been busy defacing town signs...doing so much good work.


Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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## tiroatedson

> His mates have been busy defacing town signs...doing so much good work.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Theres always nut bars on each edge of the spectrum....meaning it works both ways. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## dannyb

> There’s always nut bars on each edge of the spectrum....meaning it works both ways. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


at least he spelt it right  :Thumbsup:

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## BRADS

> Theres always nut bars on each edge of the spectrum....meaning it works both ways. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are there really nutty pro 1080 people ?
So the anti 1080 Facebook pages talk about wanting to shoot down the choppers and kill the pilots what do the pro people get up to? 

That's a genuine question as Ive meet people who think 1080 is the best option at present but dislike it and have never actually meet someone who likes 1080.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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## tiroatedson

> Are there really nutty pro 1080 people ?
> So the anti 1080 Facebook pages talk about wanting to shoot down the choppers and kill the pilots what do the pro people get up to? 
> 
> That's a genuine question as Ive meet people who think 1080 is the best option at present but dislike it and have never actually meet someone who likes 1080.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


From my perspective the nutty pro people are ones who advocate 1080 to the exclusion of anything else. BTW I dont advocate the shooting down of choppers.. and vandalism. I get the frustration though....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Cordite

> Perhaps the cruelty is the biggest concern for a lot of NZer’s. *1080’s cruelty ranking is 6*, but because that is lower than the 8 rating of brodifacoum (which DoC also drops from the air), the claim is that 1080 is “relatively humane”. There is no 10 on the scale, so *9 is the most horrendous torturous death imaginable.*
> *
> Our Govt’s scientists fed 1080 to 38 impounded dogs, and then recorded their deaths “continual barking and howling, the dog becomes over-active, and behaves as if terrified, but appears to be unaware of its surroundings. There are tonic convulsions (sustained muscle contractions) followed by running movements. Vomiting is common,…death is typically the result of respiratory paralysis. Death is never cardiac in origin, the hearts slows but continues beating for some time after respiration fails”*
> 
> If Jan Wright and successive Ministers can defend this as “humane”, then they are as cold-hearted and callous as the scientists who administer the poison and witness the deaths, pretending this is conservation science.
> New Zealand’s much touted Animal Welfare Act, has a special clause 30A which allows DoC and it’s contractors to “wilfully and recklessly ill-treat wild animals or animals in wild state”.
> 
> Gareth Hughes for the Green Party was last week attacking chicken meat processors for their animal welfare abuses (Stuff 10/9/2018), but across the hall, his associate Eugene Sage, is gleefully preparing for the torturous deaths of tens of thousands of mammals and birds in total breach of the Act, if it wasn’t for Sect 30A.
> 
> The Green Party’s close relative, Forest and Birds enthusiasm for 1080 suprises me. I wonder how many of their wealthy donors would revisit their bequests if they realized the level of support for this cruelty. If you’re about to write your will, Women’s Refuge or SPCA would seem much more deserving and caring organisations.


The cruelty is the most persuasive argument against.

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## Cordite

*30A Wilful or reckless ill-treatment of wild animals or animals in wild state*
*(1)
A person commits an offence if the person wilfully ill-treats a wild animal or an animal in a wild state.*
(2)
A person commits an offence if the person recklessly ill-treats a wild animal or an animal in a wild state.
*(3)
A defendant has a defence to a prosecution for an offence against subsection (1) or (2) if the defendant satisfies the court that the conduct alleged to constitute an offence is or is part of a generally accepted practice in New Zealand for the hunting or killing of wild animals of that type or animals in a wild state of that type.*
*(4)
In determining whether wilful or reckless ill-treatment of an animal has occurred, a court may treat an act or omission as lawful (and not subject to subsection (1) or (2)) if satisfied that
(a)
the act or omission was done in the course of performing functions for the purposes of another Act; and
(b)
not to treat the act or omission as lawful would be contrary to the purpose and principles of that Act.
*(5)
Nothing in subsection (1) or (2) applies to
(a)
a wild animal in captivity (other than in captivity in a safari park); or
(b)
the accidental or inadvertent killing or harming of an animal; or
(c)
any act or omission necessary to protect a persons life or safety.
(6)
Nothing in subsection (1) or (2) affects section 179 or 181.
(7)
A person who commits an offence against subsection (1) is liable on conviction,
(a)
in the case of an individual, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to a fine not exceeding $100,000, or to both:
(b)
in the case of a body corporate, to a fine not exceeding $500,000.
(8)
A person who commits an offence against subsection (2) is liable on conviction,
(a)
in the case of an individual, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to a fine not exceeding $75,000, or to both:
(b)
in the case of a body corporate, to a fine not exceeding $350,000.
Section 30A: inserted, on 10 May 2015, by section 20 of the Animal Welfare Amendment Act (No 2) 2015 (2015 No 49).



Perverse that deliberate ill treatment of animals should ever be protected by legislation.  

Not talking about extreme notions of animal rights here --- just basic animal welfare with condemnation of ANY deliberate animal cruelty.

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## Woody

@ebf. It's your own math that are hopeless  ebf. The $12000 refers to the cost of a 10 km trapline 200 m width by 10,000m length. this is 200 ha. 200ha @$60 = $12,000. That is less than the average cost to apply 1080 over the same area. 
Simple math for even a schoolkid. Obviously far too difficult for you and A few other smart alecs on here to fathom. Obviously DoC and OSPRI are incapable as well; OR--- simply try to ignore the obvious truths.

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## kiwijames

> Not talking about extreme notions of animal rights here --- just basic animal welfare with condemnation of ANY deliberate animal cruelty.


Does that make you anti trapping as well then?

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## ebf

I can only hope that you have failed to carefully read my post...

Stick with the 200ha size you want.

You claim the 1080 cost for that will be $12K. Since 1080 is normally only spread around 3 years apart on any specific site,the annual cost for the 200ha is $4K. With me so far ?

How many trapping days can you provide for $4000 annual budget @Woody? And just so we are clear, I am talking total operational cost.

Don't really no how to dumb it down any more...

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## Woody

Don't be so smartass @ebf. That is only a single line, serviced over three days. Start considering number of lines per man per year ongoing and you might, just might actually twig.
The point is that I am advocating a switch of 1080 money to trapping. 
The challenge I laid down it the real oil of what DoC and OSPRI and regional councils should meet. Think instead of dribbling  man.

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## Cordite

> Does that make you anti trapping as well then?


    @kiwijames

Hmm, don't see why it should.  Certain traps perhaps, but not traps _designed to_ kill, or designed to humanely capture for later relocation/disposal.  Kill traps may occasionally maim, or just catch an animal by a limb, but the legal difference here rightly lies in the deliberate intent of the person setting the trap.

Individuals spreading a poison that they reasonably expect to cause a cruel death should have no legal protection just because they are "following orders" of a government department... we've heard that one somewhere before.  They should at least be politely and respectfully taken to task for their deliberate animal cruelty.  There is no legal protection against your own conscience waking up and smelling the coffee.

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## kiwijames

> @kiwijames
> 
> Hmm, don't see why it should.  Certain traps perhaps, but not traps _designed to_ kill, or designed to humanely capture for later relocation/disposal.  Kill traps may occasionally maim, or just catch an animal by a limb, but the legal difference here rightly lies in the deliberate intent of the person setting the trap.
> 
> Individuals spreading a poison that they reasonably expect to cause a cruel death should have no legal protection just because they are "following orders" of a government department... we've heard that one somewhere before.  They should at least be politely and respectfully taken to task for their deliberate animal cruelty.  There is no legal protection against your own conscience waking up and smelling the coffee.


It wasn't meant to be a facetious question but in this context a trap is always going to be a kill trap (direct or indirect), and by your reasoning, as it IS deliberate and it IS cruel is not in your code of conduct?
So, now that poison is out and traps are out (as they're too cruel) whats the next option? Genetic alteration? Well we all now know that scientists are all corrupt and greedy so thats out. 
Anyone got the number for the Pied Piper?

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## ebf

Not all traps are equal.

Leg hold traps in my mind fall in to the cruel category. Lines are supposed to be checked within a certain time to ensure the animal caught can be dispatched. I've personally come across several lines in the Welly region where it is crystal clear that the person running the line is not meeting that obligation.

The "set-and-forget" style of traps such as the Good Nature ones are a very different proposition. Automatically resets, very quick and clean kill, and requires minimal servicing or interaction. There is a very interesting research project in the Mangatarere Valley where volunteers are used to set and rebait these traps. The one downside is initial setup costs are high, but if you factor in the cost of a person having to visit the trap maybe once every 3 months as opposed to several times a week for a conventional type of trap, the overall cost picture is not bad at all.

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## 7mmwsm

> Don't be so smartass @ebf. That is only a single line, serviced over three days. Start considering number of lines per man per year ongoing and you might, just might actually twig.
> The point is that I am advocating a switch of 1080 money to trapping. 
> The challenge I laid down it the real oil of what DoC and OSPRI and regional councils should meet. Think instead of dribbling  man.


The opportunity to prove your system is cost effective is available now. 
It's called the tender process. 
Tender for some of these jobs and show us actual results alongside your forecast results.

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## ebf

> Don't be so smartass @ebf.


So I try to have a reasoned discussion with you, and demonstrate that your argument is fundamentally flawed, and that is the best response you can come up with ?  :Grin: 




> That is only a single line, serviced over three days. Start considering number of lines per man per year ongoing and you might, just might actually twig.


I AM considering the total number of lines required, and the COST (which you clearly fail to comprehend). Someone has to pay for this. Guess what, it's the taxpayer, you and me. Your solution (if you are actually willing to have a honest and open discussion and compare apples with apples) will cost so much more that it is a non-starter.

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## Tahr

> From my perspective the nutty pro people are ones who advocate 1080 to the exclusion of anything else. BTW I dont advocate the shooting down of choppers.. and vandalism. I get the frustration though....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have never met anyone or heard of anyone who advocate 1080 to the exclusion of everything else. I have met and heard many people who advocate trapping to the exclusion of 1080. I think the latter are the nuttiest.

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## Maca49

And I think anyone that supports the dropping of a deadly poison all over their country is beyond nutty, no matter what your trying to achieve!!

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## Nick-D

Trapping would have to be entirely gov funded, a hybrid model would not work. 

The influx of fur on this scale would drive price right down.

The structure would also incentivise possum trapping and encourage neglect of mustelid and rat control.

There is also the matter of areas that are geographically challenging many to the point of being almost impossible to trap.

I would like to see paid trapping operations become more prevalent in sensitive areas and in areas with good access.

1080 just isn't going anywhere anytime soon, regardless of how many people jump up and down

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

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## Maca49



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## Graeme Sturgeon

Ha ha ha. PRO 1080 GRAFFITI. This lot doesn't believe the propaganda that its harmless in water.

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## Maca49

Bullshite @Graeme Sturgeon , its as safe as houses!! Good to see a post from you, hope all is well

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## 7mmTom

Shame on Doc!

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## Tahr

> And I think anyone that supports the dropping of a deadly poison all over their country is beyond nutty, no matter what your trying to achieve!!


That is the thing. 

Most, and maybe all, pro 1080 people like myself have backed well off _"dropping of a deadly poison all over their country"_ and have landed in a more balanced place where they are ok with broad acre 1080 use for the most difficult terrain when it is well justified, and  single use ground application when it is well justified. 

And they acknowledge that there are many other methodologies that work. That has always been my view, and I think that it is the view of most in the middle ground, and I think the sensible one.

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## Marty Henry

Im with Tahr on that.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> Bullshite @Graeme Sturgeon , its as safe as houses!! Good to see a post from you, hope all is well


I am well Maca and yourself?. Just about run of our feet here though supplying up to date information and organising the huge influx of members into the 'POISON FREE NZ' Groups. This huge influx is made up of Maori and our young New Zealanders that are starting to wake up to what is going on in our forests and reserves. This bodes well for our future for sure.

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## Maca49

> That is the thing. 
> 
> Most, and maybe all, pro 1080 people like myself have backed well off _"dropping of a deadly poison all over their country"_ and have landed in a more balanced place where they are ok with broad acre 1080 use for the most difficult terrain when it is well justified, and  single use ground application when it is well justified. 
> 
> And they acknowledge that there are many other methodologies that work. That has always been my view, and I think that it is the view of most in the middle ground, and I think the sensible one.


I would agree but since the 1950s and no change? Just keep dumping it doesn't make sense, especially what's happening in Auck at present. Id be really pissed if that happened here, My logic is different to yours, Id like DOC to open up about their operations and drop the cloak and dagger its sinister.

----------


## Nick-D

> I would agree but since the 1950s and no change? Just keep dumping it doesn't make sense, especially what's happening in Auck at present. Id be really pissed if that happened here, My logic is different to yours, Id like DOC to open up about their operations and drop the cloak and dagger its sinister.


Agreed man. Greater transparency from doc would be a boon to all involved in the conversation

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## kiwijames

> Ha ha ha. PRO 1080 GRAFFITI. This lot doesn't believe the propaganda that its harmless in water.
> Attachment 95734


11 years old with a common sense notice for the 4 poisons listed. 
Good to see youre still as relevant as ever

----------


## gadgetman

> I would agree but since the 1950s and no change? Just keep dumping it doesn't make sense, especially what's happening in Auck at present. Id be really pissed if that happened here, My logic is different to yours, Id like DOC to open up about their operations and drop the cloak and dagger its sinister.


I think the initial use in the 50's was more for rabbit control wasn't it? And if I remember correctly it did do a good job of that and the problem has generally been kept in check since then.

I can see that in plague situations it is very effective and is a good tool. I'm not so convinced of it's wide spread application at other times though. I've not seen the cost/benefit analysis done of by-kill of protected species and their recovery rates compared to the target species kill and recovery rates. There does appear to be differences in outcome in various locations with different infestation levels and bait repellent use. Things would be a lot better with greater transparency so that these things can be checked.

Now off to pull splinters from my arse, ... from sitting on the fence so much.

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## Tahr

> Agreed man. Greater transparency from doc would be a boon to all involved in the conversation
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


What is it 1080 related that you actually want to know  that DOC won't or don't tell you, or that you can't find out through an OIA request?

----------


## Cordite

> It wasn't meant to be a facetious question but *in this context a trap is always going to be a kill trap (direct or indirect), and by your reasoning, as it IS deliberate and it IS cruel is not in your code of conduct?*
> So, now that poison is out and traps are out (as they're too cruel) whats the next option? Genetic alteration? Well we all now know that scientists are all corrupt and greedy so thats out. 
> Anyone got the number for the Pied Piper?


 @kiwijames, do I come across as a hand wringer?  I'd not consider any trap "cruel" simply because it kills.  What matters is HOW well/quickly it kills.  Should be a gold standard to have cull animals finish their journey unstressed, from "now what's in here?" to "blank".

A thought:  it's accepted fact that *intentional animal cruelty* goes on in this business, or legal protection would never have been set up to cover it.  It would therefore seem legally OK to shoot deer and goats with milsurp FMJs, and at dodgy ranges, because you can theoretically kill more of them that way.  But is it right?

----------


## Maca49

> Agreed man. Greater transparency from doc would be a boon to all involved in the conversation
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


And would help settle the argument, I don't see, if its all good, why they fight the protesters why they need the security, why they do things in secrecy, why they react so badly, why, when you talk to some employees they are apologetic?? Just open up, unless they cannot?

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## Nick-D

> What is it 1080 related that you actually want to know  that DOC won't or don't tell you, or that you can't find out through an OIA request?


I don't really have much I need personally

 I feel that easier access and reference to entire studies, and the science driving each decision would be a boon to doc and clear up much of the trust issues people seem to have with them. 

Most people aren't going to go through the trouble of making an OIA request, especially if they are allready heading into the argument with a heavy conformation bias. The information needs to be readily accessible, well presented and easy to find.

To be honest though many people will still probably ignore it in favour of a YouTube video from someone who has no idea anyway. But at least the information will be there and available 

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## 7mmwsm

I think that the argument people use that "1080 has been used for decades and we still have possums, so it doesn't work" is a flawed argument.
Trappers have been trapping for decades also and we still have possums. Woody even factored in follow up trapping in his program. No system we have at present is able to take out possums for good.

I also think it is good that this thread has gone on so long and things have stayed reasonably civil. Usually after twenty odd pages on 1080 someone has chucked their toys and there's often a banned sticker across someones name.

----------


## Graeme Sturgeon

> 11 years old with a common sense notice for the 4 poisons listed. 
> Good to see you’re still as relevant as ever


11 years 'Kiwijames' Hell! that is only a small moment in time compared to the years we have been involved in dropping this particularly dirty poison from the air. Many people are asking now if its still relevant to continue to use the same failed method of pest control for 64 years. 1080 has proved  a failure and our forest are in a much worse state than when we started dropping it.
 You might say we at 'POISON FREE NZ' have already found our voice as the Tahr Hunters and Conservationists are just starting to find their own. 
Hunters, trout fishermen, white baiters, and all those people who take food from the Forest have realised that if they want to continue to do this, things have to be brought rapidly to a head with this Government. The increasing number of drops, the increase in the potency of the pellets, the zip factor of three drops on targeted area within selected Forests in a month and the super drops planned for next year mean that you 'Pansy's are going to have to piss or get off your potty's very soon.

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## Tahr

> 11 years 'Kiwijames' Hell! that is only one sixth of the time we have been involved in dropping this particularly dirty poison from the air. Many people are asking now if its still relevant to continue to use the same failed method of pest control for 64 years. 1080 has proved  a failure and our forest are in a much worse state than when we started dropping it.
>  You might say we at 'POISON FREE NZ' have already found our voice as the Tahr Hunters and Conservationists are just starting to find their own. 
> Hunters, trout fishermen, white baiters, and all those people who take food from the Forest have realised that if they want to continue to do this, things have to be brought rapidly to a head with this Government. The increasing number of drops, the increase in the potency of the pellets, the zip factor of three drops on targeted area within selected Forests in a month and the super drops planned for next year mean that you 'Pansy's are going to have to piss or get off your potty's very soon.


You are attempting to create a link between your anti 1080 cause and unrelated issues, and gain leverage from them. That is mischievous. There is no link between the Tahr cull, whitebait and for that matter the trout and salmon issues with 1080.

Also, the Tahr Foundation have since 20 Sept raised $135,000 - that is what can be achieved when a reasonably minded Foundation and hunter support pull together. 

Why this has never occurred for your cause is a critical question that you should ask yourself.

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## BRADS

> You are attempting to create a link between your anti 1080 cause from unrelated issues and gain leverage from them. That is mischievous. There is no link between the Tahr cull, whitebait and for that matter the trout and salmon issues with 1080.
> 
> Also, the Tahr Foundation have since 20 Sept raised $135,000 - that is what can be achieved when a reasonably minded Foundation and hunter support pull together. 
> 
> Why this has never occurred for your cause is a critical question that you should ask yourself.


I was thinking the same thing at lunchtime Bruce when I saw the that very thing on a 1080 Facebook page...

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## Woody

The type of operations I outlined as a base principle are in effect "output contracts", which are geared to achieve a specific outcome for a specific cost. (the cost being at or close to the current 1080 aerial expenditures) This is essentially giving knowledgeable trappers the opportunity to come up with their own initiatives RATHER THAN the unimaginative rule, regulation and protocol burdened "Input contracts" currently insisted on by the government agencies, smothered with costly protocols and over regulation to protect inefficient personnel and taxpayer dependent departments from accountability. The contracts would operate on an accounting based on productivity rather than the archetypical civil service mentality of expenditure of the money bag which tends to drive growth of inefficient protocol smothered bureaucracies and pie in the sky distracting experiments. As I've said before; the knowledge and skills have been here all along but have been deliberately ignored and actively suppressed by various governmental agencies for decades.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> You are attempting to create a link between your anti 1080 cause and unrelated issues, and gain leverage from them. That is mischievous. There is no link between the Tahr cull, whitebait and for that matter the trout and salmon issues with 1080.
> 
> Also, the Tahr Foundation have since 20 Sept raised $135,000 - that is what can be achieved when a reasonably minded Foundation and hunter support pull together. 
> 
> Why this has never occurred for your cause is a critical question that you should ask yourself.


The link is easy to find 'Tahr'. 'EUGENIC RAGE' The unelected Green Party member who is the Minister Of Conservation. She has found 80 million dollars more for her budget. What she aims to do with this money does not have to be spelled out. It will be poured into extermination campaigns  Reduction of Tahr numbers by 27500 from a herd which may be less than 35000. Does she intend to listen to the hunters, no, she will continue to take her advise from City bred organizations until she is made to listen to the hunters.  

More mischief from the Minister is the desire to curtail the sale of whitebait and the numbers caught. There is no science that backs her claims of diminishing numbers of bait. When I talk to white baiters which I am one, they mostly have catch records, 'the best science of the lot' that show the fishery is alive and well. The white baiters are so suspicious of the 'unholy alliance' that they will not show their records to anyone If the councils would stop spraying the river banks and letting farmers cows trample the salt grass where the fish lay their eggs it would be of more use.

More from our Minister, Trout, I have heard them described by DoC and their partners in crime the Green Party and Forest and Bird as the possums of the waterways. I and all I speak to, don't believe that the mandate to poison trout even in our most Iconic waterways is a good policy. But 'Poisoners' think differently to the rest of the country we realise.

So this is why I think all these silken threads from the Hand of the Minister are what will be used to slowly strangle the fisherman and the Hunter/Gatherer. It will be done slowly and with such stealth that most will not even be aware that the cord is already around their neck. The raising of the $135,000 for the Tahr Foundation is admirable. But we count our numbers in troops and have much higher numbers than that of troops on the ground signed up. We count our successes in  the cases we have brought before the courts. The Brook Valley Case, The Poisoning of the Auckland water supplies, The case very soon before the Maori courts to stop the North Auckland, Russell 1080 drop. These have cost a lot of money.

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## Maca49

> I think that the argument people use that "1080 has been used for decades and we still have possums, so it doesn't work" is a flawed argument.
> Trappers have been trapping for decades also and we still have possums. Woody even factored in follow up trapping in his program. No system we have at present is able to take out possums for good.
> 
> I also think it is good that this thread has gone on so long and things have stayed reasonably civil. Usually after twenty odd pages on 1080 someone has chucked their toys and there's often a banned sticker across someones name.


Only cause I like ya :Grin:

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## chainsaw

to get back to the theme of this thread ...... distressing and disturbing photos.   :Omg:

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## Woody

Oh my gawd.

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## ebf

> The type of operations I outlined as a base principle are in effect "output contracts", which are geared to achieve a specific outcome for a specific cost. (the cost being at or close to the current 1080 aerial expenditures).


The cost is not even close to being similar. In your own words you are comparing the cost of 3 days worth of trapping to the cost of applying 1080 once every 3 years. The more you repeat it, the more your argument looks like a *joke*...

Woody, why is it that aerial 1080 is so much cheaper than ground-based 1080 ? The total cost to DOC for all predator control looks to be around $70 / ha. This is the average for different poisons, different techniques etc. Aerial spread (which is only a portion of the total 1080 operations), is by far the cheapest option.

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## Kiwi Greg

> is by far the cheapest option.


Cheaper is always better, Aye ?

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## ebf

Depends on whose money you're spending Greg  :Grin: 

I'm not making any value judgements on what is best.

But when someone says that can do do the job for the same cost when I know for a fact its going to cost many, many times that amount because they happen to not be working efficiently, or have the wrong skillset etc, and I end up having to pay for it, guess who is not going to be a happy bunny ?

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## Woody

Take a squiz at this  :Have A Nice Day: 

https://youtu.be/dXgaAGNpn9c

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## Woody

@ebf. Better go back to school mate and learn arithmetic.
 I am clearly talking full time operations on-going. It is so obvious that you exemplify the tunnel vision that typifies the DoC and OSPRI spin (and many Council civil servants). None so blind as those who refuse to see and try to force and coerce others to remain is a big pile of s--t with them.
  I reiterate my baseline challenge. I also predicted DoC et al would choke on it because they have dug themselves a great hole and a great bureaucracy with the entirely predictable result of fear of free enterprise, initiative and real threat to themselves (their wasteful jobs and waste of public money). 
Your comments are so narrow viewed and irrational that it is obvious you are one of those poor souls locked into the inane propaganda poison loop. 
I hope you pay attention to the youtube link above, actually produced by public at their own cost, to tell the truth, even though they, like the rest of us, have already been forced to help pay for the sad spin of the DoC and OSPRI agencies.

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## Maca49

> to get back to the theme of this thread ...... distressing and disturbing photos.  
> Attachment 95753


Looks like my grandmother??

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## Tahr

> Take a squiz at this 
> 
> https://youtu.be/dXgaAGNpn9c


I just can't take this seriously. 89 dead Kiwi in Tongariro attributed to 1080 - what a crock. I challenge you or anyone Woody to put up any proof what so ever a a single one of them were killed by 1080. 
Almost every time you guys put something up like this it discredits you.

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## Maca49

> I just can't take this seriously. 89 dead Kiwi in Tongariro attributed to 1080 - what a crock. I challenge you or anyone Woody to put up any proof what so ever a a single one of them were killed by 1080. 
> Almost every time you guys put something up like this it discredits you.


Same as when I here DOC have never killed a kiwi with 1080?

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## Tahr

> Same as when I here DOC have never killed a kiwi with 1080?


Same challenge to you then Maca, put up s single shred of evidence of Tongariro Kiwi being killed by 1080. I have never personally seen a single scientifically validated death of a Kiwi by 1080 - anywhere - ever. Have you?

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## Maca49

The problem Tahr, is its not our problem, DOC should have unequivocal evidence there is no harm to our native birds, they don't seem interested, or they cannot supply it

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## Nick-D

> The problem Tahr, is its not our problem, DOC should have unequivocal evidence there is no harm to our native birds, they don't seem interested, or they cannot supply it


They have never claimed that there is no harm or no by kill of native birds though. Just that in most cases the increased recruitment numbers mean the population as a whole benifits. 

There are however times when this by kill is very bad, such as drops in kea habitat. You will find that the numbers of dead birds in these drops are closely monitored and freely reported.

Kiwi are unique as their specialist diet insulates them somewhat from the inherent risks of a 1080 drop. With critically endangered species like the kiwi by kill is closely monitored and recorded. Any dead birds undergo a necropsy to determine cod and the results are published.

I would be willing to bet real money that more kiwi are killed by hunting dogs than have ever been killed by 1080

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## Tahr

This is the information that was miss-represented in the above video.

https://www.doc.govt.nz/globalassets...clyde-graf.pdf

https://www.doc.govt.nz/globalassets...-1080-kiwi.pdf

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## Woody

@Tahr. Hey. I only put up the link. I did not make the video .  However, I think it is quite interesting. Their comment about kiwi was about doubting DoC's claims of predator kills going on what they could see in a picture. (that personally I have not seen or commented on ever. However, I am very aware of kiwi deaths where DoC applied brodifacoum poison. Little Barrier island was one such instance.

My main interest is in getting the trapping alternative some traction.

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## Gibo

I firmly believe the best way to preserve a species is to farm it. I'd be keen as on a pet Kakapo  :ORLY:

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## Graeme Sturgeon

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

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## BRADS

https://www.doc.govt.nz/news/media-r...ly-misleading/

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## Rushy

> I firmly believe the best way to preserve a species is to farm it. I'd be keen as on a pet Kakapo


Gibo having pets is not farming.

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## Woody

There was a chap down Lyttleton way couple of years back trying to farm wekas. DoC didn't go for the idea much. He told them he thought it was the best way to protect endangered spp-- farm them. I reckon DoC thought the idea was a threat to be stopped at all costs.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## doinit

> Same challenge to you then Maca, put up s single shred of evidence of Tongariro Kiwi being killed by 1080. I have never personally seen a single scientifically validated death of a Kiwi by 1080 - anywhere - ever. Have you?


Could you put up any validated truth that none have been killed by 1080?

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## johnd

The problem with large scale trapping or similar labour intensive operations will be the quality of those tasked with doing the actual work.

There is enough of an issue getting modern day physically active young people to turn up to a regular well paid job in town.
Put them in a hut / camp far from home in a largely unsupervised role, i dont know what they will be doing most of the time but it wont be setting traps.

Sure there may be a small core of enthusiasts but typically this role is left to some start up or feel good "get the unemployed working" idealism

Add to that the figure fudging that would be done by their supervisory teams  ( that are financially linked to it looking successfull )

You think DOC look bad / corrupt ........

All control methods have their place and should be treated as  such. But i just cant see how conventional traplines or even ressetting stations can achieve the effectiveness that aerial poison over rugged terrain can. Dont forget that one of the main arguments against poison  ( any poison not just 1080 ) is bycatch. I have no figures but i would be pretty sure more Kiwi have been caught in a trap than killed by poison.

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## Maca49

But you dont know  @johnd and there the problem?

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## ebf

Well @Maca49, even if John had those figures, I'm pretty sure you guys would claim they were false propaganda by the evil DOC/AHB/OSPRI conspiracy... And lord knows the likes of the anti-1080 brigade (who seem to be the only people you think are speaking the "truth") would not publish something like that  :Grin: 

So it is a bit of a pointless argument, no ?

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## gadgetman

> Well @Maca49, even if John had those figures, I'm pretty sure you guys would claim they were false propaganda by the evil DOC/AHB/OSPRI conspiracy... And lord knows the likes of the anti-1080 brigade (who seem to be the only people you think are speaking the "truth") would not publish something like that 
> 
> So it is a bit of a pointless argument, no ?


Problem with polar positions. Both sides have those that tend to take the extreme stance and be very vocal about it. It is the majority in the middle ground with rational thoughts that tend to get drowned out.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

If you have never personally seen a single scientifically validated death of a kiwi by 1080 - anywhere - ever. Then Tahr perhaps you should take your own advice and put in an OIA.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

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## ebf

> Problem with polar positions. Both sides have those that tend to take the extreme stance and be very vocal about it. It is the majority in the middle ground with rational thoughts that tend to get drowned out.


Come on gadget, that is way too sensible ! You should know by now that you are either completely anti-1080 or completely pro-1080. There is no middle ground  :Wink:

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## Rushy

> There is no middle ground


Is too. It's 540

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## Nick-D

> If you have never personally seen a single scientifically validated death of a kiwi by 1080 - anywhere - ever. Then Tahr perhaps you should take your own advice and put in an OIA.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater


You realise that this is a table that shows there is 1080 in the liver of animals that have been necropsied, and is not a measure of if they were in fact killed by the 1080. You are assuming causation without sufficient evidence.

You do understand the liver is a cleaning device that filters and accumulates toxins and hence is why they use it to detect poisons.

Without a further indication of cause of death this data is entirely useless. 

This sort of ideological leap hurts your cause.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

You have forgotten some are still eggs. I think you are assuming causation without sufficient evidence Nick-D

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## Maca49

> Well @Maca49, even if John had those figures, I'm pretty sure you guys would claim they were false propaganda by the evil DOC/AHB/OSPRI conspiracy... And lord knows the likes of the anti-1080 brigade (who seem to be the only people you think are speaking the "truth") would not publish something like that 
> 
> So it is a bit of a pointless argument, no ?


I dont disagree with you  @ebf but DOC by their own actions cause this mistrust. My feeling are simple, NZ should not have this, or any other poison, dropped all over it. This is my homeland and it distresses my how easy it is for this to happen by one out of control group. By its very nature of operating, it knows it wrong. There seems to be very little activity or interest to persue any alternatives?

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## Maca49

> Come on gadget, that is way too sensible ! You should know by now that you are either completely anti-1080 or completely pro-1080. There is no middle ground


That’s incorrect, convince me this spread of poison is s good thing?

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## Maca49

> Is too. It's 540


Just about your age next birthday? :O O:

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## Nick-D

> You have forgotten some are still eggs. I think you are assuming causation without sufficient evidence Nick-D


I'm not assuming anything. I wasn't the one  implying 1080 kills kiwi and presenting that data as evidence.

Your claims, true or not are simply not represented in the evidence you supplied. Simply put, you are just making shit up.

You could given that evidence argue that 1080 bio accumulates in native birds, specifically in carnivorous species. That's much of my issue with the anti 1080 movement, much of the real issues(of which there are many) get drowned out by  nonsense claims and conspiracy theories.


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## BRADS

> You realise that this is a table that shows there is 1080 in the liver of animals that have been necropsied, and is not a measure of if they were in fact killed by the 1080. You are assuming causation without sufficient evidence.
> 
> You do understand the liver is a cleaning device that filters and accumulates toxins and hence is why they use it to detect poisons.
> 
> Without a further indication of cause of death this data is entirely useless. 
> 
> This sort of ideological leap hurts your cause.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


Well said Nick.
I just looked at that link and came to the same conclusion...none have died.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

Get your hand off it Nick-D. If we have poisoned their livers and their eggs then the rest of the birds pretty damned manky. I cant believe that you could claim only finding 1080 in the livers and eggs of our most iconic bird is hailed by you as some sort of a triumph.

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## BRADS

> Get your hand off it Nick-D. If we have poisoned their livers and their eggs then the rest of the birds pretty damned manky. I cant believe that you could claim only finding 1080 in the livers and eggs of our most iconic bird is hailed by you as some sort of a triumph.


Hes not saying it's a triumph mate hes just pointing out the birds are not killed buy 1080 as you first said...
A minute searching Kathy Whites history on Google certainly makes it not very valid data....

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> Hes not saying it's a triumph mate hes just pointing out the birds are not killed buy 1080 as you first said...
> A minute searching Kathy Whites history on Google certainly makes it not very valid data....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Nothing to do with Kathy White who is a much respected, long serving Waikato Regional Councillor Brads. But I thought you just might recognise an OIA when you saw one.

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## Nick-D

> Get your hand off it Nick-D. If we have poisoned their livers and their eggs then the rest of the birds pretty damned manky. I cant believe that you could claim only finding 1080 in the livers and eggs of our most iconic bird is hailed by you as some sort of a triumph.


I'm not claiming it's a victory. I'm not claiming anything. You're the one making claims.

Again your making a claim based on no evidence. Show me the evidence that this tiny level of accumulated toxin (.05 parts per million) in the liver is enough to effect or impact the animal in questions health.

 I'm not a toxicologist and neither are you so let's stop pretending you know what these results actually mean, cos I sure don't.

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## ebf

> That’s incorrect, convince me this spread of poison is s good thing?


You want examples of "positive" use ?

Just about every fenced sanctuary project in NZ, and most of the offshore islands used for saving species that are critically endangered.

----------


## sneeze

> You realise that this is a table that shows there is 1080 in the liver of animals that have been necropsied, and is not a measure of if they were in fact killed by the 1080. You are assuming causation without sufficient evidence.
> 
> You do understand the liver is a cleaning device that filters and accumulates toxins and hence is why they use it to detect poisons.
> 
> Without a further indication of cause of death this data is entirely useless. 
> 
> This sort of ideological leap hurts your cause.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


So what does ppm in a liver test represent in terms of toxicity? Or to put it another way, what would a lethal dose for a kiwi/weka  show in ppm from the liver? 
Anyone know?

----------


## Nick-D

> So what does ppm in a liver test represent in terms of toxicity? Or to put it another way, what would a lethal dose for a kiwi/weka  show in ppm from the liver? 
> Anyone know?


No idea man. That's the point.

There a bit of data around ld50 rates but I can't find anything that relates liver trace levels to toxicity or probable death.

Given the accumulatove filtration nature of the liver I would be inclined to think its not an accurate measure of toxicity at all. But that's purely speculative.

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## doinit

> You want examples of "positive" use ?
> 
> Just about every fenced sanctuary project in NZ, and most of the offshore islands used for saving species that are critically endangered.


Fenced sanctuarys and most off shore Islands aint whole bloody Mountain ranges and farm land oh and water catchments ,list goes on...nothing positive about that............What is it about DEADLY POISON  and the harm it is doing to the environment and humans that you don't understand?

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## doinit

> So what does ppm in a liver test represent in terms of toxicity? Or to put it another way, what would a lethal dose for a kiwi/weka  show in ppm from the liver? 
> 
> Anyone know?


No idea about liver tests sneeze..but have come across shit loads of Weka tipped up after a 1080 drop.
Most still had crumbs and dye in their mouths. Weka in my experience are one of the first ground dwellers to die from a drop.
The biggest upset for me was observing a pure white Weka..(very rare) for several weeks,then bang,,dead from a drop.
DOC were told about it before the drop but were not the slightest bit interested.
I believe it was the 3rd ever sighting,,with proof.

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## 300CALMAN

:O O:  plenty of study info out there if you want to read about LD50s etc  :Zomg: . I understand weka, kaka, kea etc were more likely to get poisoned. Kiwi poisoning seems unlikely.

"1080" is just another poison, there are many. My objection is that they do helicopter drops everywhere because it's cheap. If they really must helicopter drop poisons, leave it to only the most remote areas and the sanctuaries etc.. Let trappers and others do the accessible areas.

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## Tahr

> If you have never personally seen a single scientifically validated death of a kiwi by 1080 - anywhere - ever. Then Tahr perhaps you should take your own advice and put in an OIA.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater


Brodi, not 1080. Answer the question I asked, and not the one you wish I had asked.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Graeme Sturgeon

> Brodi, not 1080. Answer the question I asked, and not the one you wish I had asked.


If you look at the covering letter from Department of Conservation shown with the OIA 'Thar' you will see that the results asked for and given  cover both brodifacoum and 1080. The poisons shown here found in the Kiwi are 1080 measured in parts per million and is clearly labelled as such. It is well documented that no Epidrmilogical studies have been done on humans and that we could as suggested be effected by 1080 by parts per trillion and so possibly are the kiwi. Certainly the fertility of the birds will be effected.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

I would like to thank you Guys Brads, Nick-D, and Thar for teasing this story out and making sure that it is got down and properly discussed.  

It is enough to show that DOC, Ospri, and Regional Councils knowingly spread 1080 and brodifacoum in kiwi areas. As 'MACCA' stated above, it is not our job to prove that those mobs above kill kiwi, it is they who should have to prove that they do not kill kiwi. It is enough for now, for us to have proved that DOC knowingly poison them. These poisons are also found in their eggs and their dropping, but that is another story for another day. Whether the sadly now weak'nd kiwi now falls prey to predators, dies of starvation. is rendered infertile like so many raptors. is run over by a car becomes irrelevant.

I know DoC kills kiwi I worked for them as a contractor for over three years.

Never mind I have two days of whitebaiting ahead and then I will get back to work. Lots to do with the large numbers of members joining our ranks. Here's to be hoped that the next time I am on here that 1080 is just a fading but bad memory.

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## turtle

> If they really must helicopter drop poisons, leave it to only the most remote areas and the sanctuaries etc.. Let trappers and others do the accessible areas.


Isn't this what they are supposed to do ?

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## Nick-D

> I would like to thank you Guys Brads, Nick-D, and Thar for teasing this story out and making sure that it is got down and properly discussed.  
> 
> It is enough to show that DOC, Ospri, and Regional Councils knowingly spread 1080 and brodifacoum in kiwi areas. As 'MACCA' stated above, it is not our job to prove that those mobs above kill kiwi, it is they who should have to prove that they do not kill kiwi. It is enough for now, for us to have proved that DOC knowingly poison them. These poisons are also found in their eggs and their dropping, but that is another story for another day. Whether the sadly now weak'nd kiwi now falls prey to predators, dies of starvation. is rendered infertile like so many raptors. is run over by a car becomes irrelevant.
> 
> I know DoC kills kiwi I worked for them as a contractor for over three years.
> 
> Never mind I have two days of whitebaiting ahead and then I will get back to work. Lots to do with the large numbers of members joining our ranks. Here's to be hoped that the next time I am on here that 1080 is just a fading but bad memory.


They keep records of every necropsied kiwi. I'm not sure what else they can do to prove it to you.

Again show the evidence that doses in that magnitude in anyway effect health or fertility in kiwi. 

All the literature I have seen was using doses orders of magnitude higher than the residue found in the kiwi, and dosing for prolonged periods.

Certainly it is an area that could benifit from greater science, but that doesn't mean you can just make stuff up to suit you bias.

Don't get me wrong, given a better alternative I would prefer we weren't dumping poison into these environments. I just don't see another alternative. Without these periods of reduced predator pressure evidence suggests many of our bird populations would be even worse of.

Enjoy your white baiting, I miss the old wb fritters

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## Maca49

> I would like to thank you Guys Brads, Nick-D, and Thar for teasing this story out and making sure that it is got down and properly discussed.  
> 
> It is enough to show that DOC, Ospri, and Regional Councils knowingly spread 1080 and brodifacoum in kiwi areas. As 'MACCA' stated above, it is not our job to prove that those mobs above kill kiwi, it is they who should have to prove that they do not kill kiwi. It is enough for now, for us to have proved that DOC knowingly poison them. These poisons are also found in their eggs and their dropping, but that is another story for another day. Whether the sadly now weak'nd kiwi now falls prey to predators, dies of starvation. is rendered infertile like so many raptors. is run over by a car becomes irrelevant.
> 
> I know DoC kills kiwi I worked for them as a contractor for over three years.
> 
> Never mind I have two days of whitebaiting ahead and then I will get back to work. Lots to do with the large numbers of members joining our ranks. Here's to be hoped that the next time I am on here that 1080 is just a fading but bad memory.


Go and enjoy some "own" time Graeme!!

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## Maca49

Independent? enquiry into the dead cattle, lets hope this is the start of an open book policy by Doc, it could move them a long way down the correct road? But I think changes in the organization will also be required

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## Marty Henry

There are several things missing from that table that would make it more meaningful.
1/ a background zero level taken from animals in an area that has never been treated with the stuff. This is needed to determine what if any naturally occurring level of fluroacetate occurs in the environment.
2/ the size of the sample analysed and the percentage of tests were above that baseline figure
3/levels that have been recorded in dead animals that have been autopsied.

Someone mentioned LD 50 i dont believe the figures quote for rats etc can be applied across other species by extrapolation of body weight populations of animals historically exposed to naturally occuring fluroacetate in their diet have developed tolerance to high doses of the poison. 

This appears to be a good piece of scientific work to start with but because of its incomplete nature drawing conclusions from it is open to criticisim.
Another point is that fluroacetate does not bioaccumulate ie is not stored in body tissues like fat as brodi is. It is excreted and metabolised away so for it to be present in tissue there has to have been recent exposure. Brodi on the other hand can remain stored in tissue for years in the case of large ma

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## Tahr

> If you look at the covering letter from Department of Conservation shown with the OIA 'Thar' you will see that the results asked for and given  cover both brodifacoum and 1080. The poisons shown here found in the Kiwi are 1080 measured in parts per million and is clearly labelled as such. It is well documented that no Epidrmilogical studies have been done on humans and that we could as suggested be effected by 1080 by parts per trillion and so possibly are the kiwi. Certainly the fertility of the birds will be effected.


Yes, and I noted that after my post. Tried to delete my comment but failed (I'm out of the country at the moment). But in any event, these Kiwi were not killed by 1080.

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## sneeze

They probably died from a brain aneurysm after reading this thread.

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## 300CALMAN

> Isn't this what they are supposed to do ?


 :Grin:  yeah bro those were mountain cows a special breed of hereford crossed with chamois living above the tree line

And wow the Hunua's, such an impenetrable mountainside!

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## 7mmwsm

> I would like to thank you Guys Brads, Nick-D, and Thar for teasing this story out and making sure that it is got down and properly discussed.  
> 
> It is enough to show that DOC, Ospri, and Regional Councils knowingly spread 1080 and brodifacoum in kiwi areas. As 'MACCA' stated above, it is not our job to prove that those mobs above kill kiwi, it is they who should have to prove that they do not kill kiwi. It is enough for now, for us to have proved that DOC knowingly poison them. These poisons are also found in their eggs and their dropping, but that is another story for another day. Whether the sadly now weak'nd kiwi now falls prey to predators, dies of starvation. is rendered infertile like so many raptors. is run over by a car becomes irrelevant.
> 
> I know DoC kills kiwi I worked for them as a contractor for over three years.
> 
> Never mind I have two days of whitebaiting ahead and then I will get back to work. Lots to do with the large numbers of members joining our ranks. Here's to be hoped that the next time I am on here that 1080 is just a fading but bad memory.


I can't help notice the hypocrisy of your ways. Banging on about native birds being killed, but taking a break to target native fish.

This poison free NZ movement you talk of, What is it's intention? To eliminate all poisons ie pesticides, herbicides, animal remedies etc, or just the ones you disapprove of? 
Not meant to be a provocative question, genuinely interested.

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## doinit

> I can't help notice the hypocrisy of your ways. Banging on about native birds being killed, but taking a break to target native fish.
> 
> This poison free NZ movement you talk of, What is it's intention? To eliminate all poisons ie pesticides, herbicides, animal remedies etc, or just the ones you disapprove of? 
> Not meant to be a provocative question, genuinely interested.


One day you will understand,maybe after it's to late. Time to remove the blinkers.

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## Graeme Sturgeon

This is what its like on the frontline now. My lawyers bill was $22,336,75 of which the Poison Free NZ crowd funding paid $13,000

They should not have done this to an old soldier, he will neither forgive them or forget them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7_xZ4r49p4

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## Tahr

> This is what its like on the frontline now. My lawyers bill was $22,336,75 of which the Poison Free NZ crowd funding paid $13,000
> 
> They should not have done this to an old soldier, he will neither forgive them or forget them.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7_xZ4r49p4


Here's another perspective.

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/17-...-and-got-ugly/

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## Maca49

Geeze who wrote that dribble? DOC can write that, but still cannot see how to stop it? I think that shows they need to open up and truly show us just how good and friendly 1080 is? I think that maybe like pushing melted butter up a porcupines arse with a hot needle? If not, DOC have to show leadership and stop being bullies? I think the balls in their court to resolve it and stop bitching!

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## doinit

The poison crowd are under pressure , they'll never admit it like. The amount of people now against the crap is huge,that has to be good in the long term.
When a rat becomes cornered it'll do the unthinkable,don't think for one minute that the poison crew are any different.

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## tiroatedson

> Here's another perspective.
> 
> https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/17-...-and-got-ugly/


Albeit a mainstream media perspective....which is in no way biased...??🤨🤨


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## Nick-D

> Albeit a mainstream media perspective....which is in no way biased...??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah your right, we should probably stick to reliable honest media sources like Clyde grafs YouTube account.

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## tiroatedson

> Yeah your right, we should probably stick to reliable honest media sources like Clyde grafs YouTube account.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


Never said that. As Thar its about perspective. Funny though how a post was put up about a article of  how the antis have got/are getting a game plan.. to deflect from a article of someone that was actually assaulted(in front of witnesses) and was then charged with assault. Kinda cunning if you ask me...🤨


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## Nick-D

> Never said that. As Thar its about perspective. Funny though how a post was put up about a article of  how the antis have got/are getting a game plan.. to deflect from a article of someone that was actually assaulted(in front of witnesses) and was then charged with assault. Kinda cunning if you ask me...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah sorry that came off more snarky than intended. Point is bias and media spin exist on both sides

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## tiroatedson

> Yeah sorry that came off more snarky than intended. Point is bias and media spin exist on both sides
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


Definitely 


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## BRADS

> Never said that. As Thar its about perspective. Funny though how a post was put up about a article of  how the antis have got/are getting a game plan.. to deflect from a article of someone that was actually assaulted(in front of witnesses) and was then charged with assault. Kinda cunning if you ask me...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you read The post Tahr put up mate?
Sorry but assualting doc workers doing there job sits just as badly in my books.
I have a new respect for Graeme Sturgeon after what he did, but it wasnt his job he had a choice to go there, a lot of these doc workers are just like you and me trying to pay the Bill's and feed the family and there getting attacked we gotta clean it up a.

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## tiroatedson

> Did you read The post Tahr put up mate?
> Sorry but assualting doc workers doing there job sits just as badly in my books.
> I have a new respect for Graeme Sturgeon after what he did, but it wasnt his job he had a choice to go there, a lot of these doc workers are just like you and me trying to pay the Bill's and feed the family and there getting attacked we gotta clean it up a.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Ok...yes Brads I read the post Thar put up. The reason why I put mine up as I thought I explained to Nick-D was about media bias. 

Yes Graeme had a choice to be at the scene. He was still assaulted by a unregistered security guard. The security guard had a choice to be on scene ..or not. He chose to be there. He chose to assault Graeme..(according to what Ive read, I could be wrong). So that was a actual assault. 

As for Thars link. That was talking about threats to DOC staff. In no way shape or form I condone that. 
Yes you are right they are doing their jobs as you do put it to support them and there families. That again is a choice. Just like I choose my occupation and place of employment. Thats my choice. 
As I said to Nick-D Thars post/link was about deflection...deflecting from Graemes post about a actual assault, court hearing and how much its cost him. 

Yes you are right its gotta be cleaned up. That works both ways. 


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## BRADS

> Ok...yes Brads I read the post Thar put up. The reason why I put mine up as I thought I explained to Nick-D was about media bias. 
> 
> Yes Graeme had a choice to be at the scene. He was still assaulted by a unregistered security guard. The security guard had a choice to be on scene ..or not. He chose to be there. He chose to assault Graeme..(according to what Ive read, I could be wrong). So that was a actual assault. 
> 
> As for Thars link. That was talking about threats to DOC staff. In no way shape or form I condone that. 
> Yes you are right they are doing their jobs as you do put it to support them and there families. That again is a choice. Just like I choose my occupation and place of employment. Thats my choice. 
> As I said to Nick-D Thars post/link was about deflection...deflecting from Graemes post about a actual assault, court hearing and how much its cost him. 
> 
> Yes you are right its gotta be cleaned up. That works both ways. 
> ...





> Ok...yes Brads I read the post Thar put up. The reason why I put mine up as I thought I explained to Nick-D was about media bias. 
> 
> Yes Graeme had a choice to be at the scene. He was still assaulted by a unregistered security guard. The security guard had a choice to be on scene ..or not. He chose to be there. He chose to assault Graeme..(according to what Ive read, I could be wrong). So that was a actual assault. 
> 
> As for Thars link. That was talking about threats to DOC staff. In no way shape or form I condone that. 
> Yes you are right they are doing their jobs as you do put it to support them and there families. That again is a choice. Just like I choose my occupation and place of employment. Thats my choice. 
> As I said to Nick-D Thars post/link was about deflection...deflecting from Graemes post about a actual assault, court hearing and how much its cost him. 
> 
> Yes you are right its gotta be cleaned up. That works both ways. 
> ...


I agree with most of what your saying, except not everyone has a choice where they work, sometime it's all they've got.
I also dont think Tahr was defecting I think he was just pointing out this happens to Doc workers countrywide on a very regular basis...

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## tiroatedson

> I agree with most of what your saying, except not everyone has a choice where they work, sometime it's all they've got.
> I also dont think Tahr was defecting I think he was just pointing out this happens to Doc workers countrywide on a very regular basis...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Im not saying it doesnt happen to DOC workers around the country on a regular basis. Pretty suck if it does and certainly dont condone it. If theres being assaults the perpetrators should be charged and held accountable.  Again though threats not assault so possibly a degree of deflection going on....
As for choice..? Yes we still all have a choice...its that for some the choices arent flash...


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## Woody

Just goig back a little to fatal effects of poison. LD50 actually means 50% of the affected population will die. That is very high odds and totally unacceptable where an extremely lethal poision is involved. Where vulnerable species are concerned, such as humans or bats or kea or weka or dogs, surely an LD rating of only LD1 should be considered to vastly exceed any precautionary principle!
Put simply and realistically, the true risks of using this and sumilar poisons is being inexcusably downplayed.

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## Tahr

Here something interesting. 

No one is likely to come out of this smelling of roses but I've seen the farmer's version, and once again, here's another perspective.

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## Woody

Yep. The old story " he said; she said. " Few people will trust WRC as "independent" though. Shoukd be undertaken by truly independent agency that has no government affiliations whatsoever.

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## Woody

Even having Federated Farmers do the investigation would be Far better tha Waikato Regional Council.

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## Woody

Even the meat and wool board would be more trustworthy than WRC!

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## Woody

And; the fact remains that normal SOP's with aerial 1080 has a no drop buffer of 150 to 500 metres away from farm bounaries, stock snd dwellings; 200 m+ upstream of water intakes! WTF were DoC doing?

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## Marty Henry

You are wrong Woody, Ld 50 is a measure of the concentration of a toxin in relation to body weight where 50 % of individuals in a test group will as you say die. Figures are typically determined for rats, mice or other laboratory animals and usually extrapolated for other animals.
It is used to determine the concentration required in baits to achieve positive kill. It is not in a measure of lethality on a scale of 1 to 100.  It frustrates me that both sides of this debate often misinterpret scientific data or reinvent it to suit there ends.

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## Cordite

Interesting talk on getting your point across - any issue.

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## Marty Henry

Social media manipulation offers huge opportunities for any group savvy enough to do so look at safe.

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## Woody

Marty Henry; the LD50 will kill 50%of the population and in conjunction with this the ckassification of the poison must be taken into consideration. In the case of 1080 it classed by WHO as Class 1A-extremely hazardous. Thus any lethality risk is still massive and this poison is not for handling by cowboys, which looks to be occurring in NZ.

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## doinit

> Yep. The old story " he said; she said. " Few people will trust WRC as "independent" though. Shoukd be undertaken by truly independent agency that has no government affiliations whatsoever.


If the WRC is anything like most Regional Councils they'll more than likely find the cows choked on Dock leaves or some other shit..always someone covering someone's arse when it comes to utter carelessness with a deadly poison.

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## tiroatedson

> Yep. The old story " he said; she said. " Few people will trust WRC as "independent" though. Shoukd be undertaken by truly independent agency that has no government affiliations whatsoever.


Problem is whos that though...?


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## Woody

Well; the Feds wouldnt be a bad option since its a farm issue. Otherwise I suggest hiring an independent investigator of very high calibre from an offshore neutral country such as Switzerland, Germany , Sweden, Denmark, Finland or Belgium, or even Interpol. Gotta stay away from NZ Government influence Im sorry to say.

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## Tahr

The robustness of an investigation rests on the process, not who does it.  The starting point is rigorous terms of reference. 

However, the _perceived_ fairness of the outcome rests on the independence of who does it.

Woody's tongue in cheek comment is correct because it suggests that no person exists who would be independent _enough_. 

So just get on with it.

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## McNotty

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/discu...0-geoff-booth/

This popped up on my newsfeed the other day. Be interested in other peoples thoughts if they take the time to read it.

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## Marty Henry

Excellent article well written by someone who appears to have a creditable background. Thanks for that @McNotty

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## kiwijames

As above. Solid middle ground report.

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## BRADS

Should be compulsory reading, for all that want to debate 1080

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## veitnamcam

> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/discu...0-geoff-booth/
> 
> This popped up on my newsfeed the other day. Be interested in other peoples thoughts if they take the time to read it.


That has to be the best thing I have ever read on the subject.

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## Woody

> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/discu...0-geoff-booth/
> 
> This popped up on my newsfeed the other day. Be interested in other peoples thoughts if they take the time to read it.


You know; our Nz Wildlands Biodiversity Management Society tried for several weeks to provide  virtually identical evidence as Mr Booth has presented here, to Jan Wright and the PCE back in 2010 . PCE refused to hear us. We then documented it all onto CDs and sent 11 copies to NZ Parliamentary partys and to Mr Speaker and Clerk of the House. They have known for eight years and yet still quote the erroneous and misleading  PCE report !

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## 7mmwsm

Very good article.

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## time out

> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/discu...0-geoff-booth/
> 
> This popped up on my newsfeed the other day. Be interested in other peoples thoughts if they take the time to read it.


That is an excellent report - the cruelty associated with the use of 1080 is horrific

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## Moa Hunter

I am personally very greatfull that you posted the article Woody

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## Woody

Actually, it was posted by McNotty. I am also grateful he posted it.

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## Maca49

I think Al Gore should reply to it on behalf of DOC? :Sad:

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## sneeze

> I think Al Gore should reply to it on behalf of DOC?


That might be inconvenient

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## 300CALMAN

> I think Al Gore should reply to it on behalf of DOC?


He drops 1080 out of his personal jet burning thousands of liters of jet fuel on his way from his massive mansion to global warming conferences?

Awesome article thanks for sharing.

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