# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  .308 Ballistics

## gimp



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## veitnamcam

Gimp every one knows the .308 win is the undisputed king of everything! :Psmiley:

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## baldbob

LOL Can you draw us a ballistic chart for a 6.5?

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## gimp

My graphing software won't go to "forever"


(I did not draw this chart)

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## veitnamcam

Actually If your talking animals you should bring that line back to 600

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## Spanners

That's gold  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Walker

Amusing, pity the graphs not particularly accurate.

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## nzteza

i still would not stand at 1000 yard as a target

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## gimp

> Amusing, pity the graphs not particularly accurate.


True. .308 bullets usually don't have faces.

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## 7mmsaum

Well spotted gimp, was trying to figure the error.

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## baldbob

> He is right, the main error I see, that .308 projectile is about 170yards long. I think you would struggle to load those to mag length.


Extended mag box will make short work of that :Thumbsup:

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## gimp

Need a long action too.

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## Garret

I'm not sure what I expected when I saw this title - this made me properly LOL  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## James

> He is right, the main error I see, that .308 projectile is about 170yards long. I think you would struggle to load those to mag length.


Good Call.

-There may also be an error in the maths: The graph suggests that a .308 projectile with a trajectory 50 inches high at 200yds will make it to 800 yds. I suspect this is an exageration. Perhaps they forgot to put a "x 10 to the power of" on the 50.

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## yogi

Then there's the compressed load .308 graph with the hot burning powder of course. That must have been the factory ammo graph that you found!! :Psmiley:

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## Chris

> i still would not stand at 1000 yard as a target


Probably why the armed forces use the caliber .

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## gimp

Or it's because of a bunch of bad decisions in the fifties and it would be a logistical nightmare to change

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## veitnamcam

> I'm going to go with that. 
> 
> It's popular because it's abundant. Not because it's any good. 
> 
> What I find interesting is how uniquely terrible it is. If you put it among the rounds we have today, it's right at the sweet spot of crapness. That dead place where the velocities are low, the BC is impossible to get above awful and still fit the action and it *has a lot of recoil for its meager performance.*


*
*

bwahaahaaha

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## Kiwi Greg

> I'm going to go with that. 
> 
> It's popular because it's abundant. Not because it's any good. 
> 
> What I find interesting is how uniquely terrible it is. If you put it among the rounds we have today, it's right at the sweet spot of crapness. That dead place where the velocities are low, the BC is impossible to get above awful and still fit the action and it has a lot of recoil for its meager performance.


So I see the anti-308 feeling is still strong then  :Grin:

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## Wildman

It kinda looks like you threw a joint 800yards and it hit some magical wall, not sure why you would throw such a thing, usually its smoked...

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## DAF

> I'm going to go with that. 
> 
> It's popular because it's abundant. Not because it's any good. 
> 
> What I find interesting is how uniquely terrible it is. If you put it among the rounds we have today, it's right at the sweet spot of crapness. That dead place where the velocities are low, the BC is impossible to get above awful and still fit the action and it has a lot of recoil for its meager performance.


7.62×51mm NATO - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
lt's a shame they didn't go with the British .280

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## Beavis

Hey it did spawn some nice cartridges. I could say the same for .223/5.56 - The BC's are terrible, energy levels are pathetic. After shooting a bunch of animals with it, some repeatedly, I now understand the hate it gets in the military. It's just such a sporadic killer. Sometimes it drops shit good, other times things walk away full of holes.

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## Beavis

Yip. The Grendel would be an obvious candidate for a service round. Can't really see it happening though.

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## veitnamcam

Granted the 308 is never going to be a 1000y legend (opps it already is)
but sub 400 (where most everything is shot) there really isn't anything to better it in a non magnum short action round, you cant beat poking a big hole in something for killing stuff.
If you want to deliberately seek to shoot animals further then ANYTHING on the 08 case is not going to be your thing. But we all know that already :Wink: 

Recoil LMFAO

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## Beavis

I actually wouldn't mind a .308 for fudding about *hides behind couch*

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## veitnamcam

.62 x 2-2.5x expansion :Wink:  If diameter made no difference to killing power everyone would be using 22 cal FMJ  on dangerous game.

Iv witnessed a 525y shot with a 223 at 21deg up on a fallow doe, leaning on a rock with 60y old eyes(not mine im not that fucken old :Grin: ) and a rifle that was sighted in at 25y 10 years previous with a different brand of factory 55gr varmint pills and a fixed 4x scope that looks like its been cleaned with scotch bright regularly.
It went 3 steps and rolled half way down to us, doesn't make it a long range cal, doesn't make it a consistent killer either.

As always performance on game is about matching projectile to impact velocity. Realistically 600 is it for 308 with available bullets both from impact velocity and windage.
But sub 400 Its hard to beat :Wink:

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## R93

I would never hesitate to use another .308 for hunting. Apart from 5.56 it is a rifle calibre that I have the most experience with.
I have once helped another soldier fire14,000+ rds of .308 in a day. It still brings a smile to my dial thinking about days like that, engaging targets over 2kms away.
Shot one in comps overseas and heaps of times here.
They are ballistic nightmares beyond certain ranges but if you can half way handle one, shooting ballistically better cals are easier.
They kill universally better in most bullet weights I have used as well. 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

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## GravelBen

> 7mm-08 has leaves it for dead


That extra 10yds of MPBR eh...  :Wink:

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## gimp

No, that extra .15 BC at 100fps faster

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## GravelBen

Quick check of factory ammo figures from Hornady website, as close as I can find to equivalent loads (both 'SST superformance')...

.308 150gr @ 3000fps, BC 0.415
7-08 139gr @ 2950fps, BC 0.486

And seeing as you made the comparison,

.223 55gr @ 3240, BC 0.255

Maybe I'm missing something... I might plug those figures into my ballistic calc and see how much difference 0.071 BC makes. I might learn something!

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## gimp

> Hey it did spawn some nice cartridges. I could say the same for .223/5.56 - The BC's are terrible, energy levels are pathetic. After shooting a bunch of animals with it, some repeatedly, I now understand the hate it gets in the military. It's just such a sporadic killer. Sometimes it drops shit good, other times things walk away full of holes.


Better bullets help, what're you using?

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## gimp

Woooo .308 argument!! Haven't seen one in ages.

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## veitnamcam

> Doesnt everything have enough ooomph at sub 400?


Apparently not going buy the ones iv finished off with the 308 :Grin: 

A 22lr has enough "oomph" to kill things with a lung shot at 120-150y but i still dont recommend it,As i saw a 223 has enough oomph at 525y but that was just silly.

I still cant tell the difference between my suppressed 243 and my 308 the old mans 30/06 recoil wise they all go bang and give a bit of a push.
No Im not a big guy by any means. I had free rein with a sporterised brass butt plate 303 from around 13y old, got a very light but fucked majestic at 15y in 308.
Talking *standard* cals recoil is in your head literally.Its the noise you react to.

My 308 un braked un suppressed with correct body position and hold i can spot my shots.
My suppressed 243 leaps off the bi pod like a 18 year old boy leaps on a willing participant.
Admittedly this is due to a shitty plastic stock but actual rearward thrust into my shoulder? all the same I reckon.
Recoil- ask Greg if you can shoot one of his new 375s without a brake :Grin:

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## GravelBen

> Maybe I'm missing something... I might plug those figures into my ballistic calc and see how much difference 0.071 BC makes. I might learn something!


Figures plugged, using 10mph wind for arguments sake (yes, I realise neither of those will be the best possible round for each, just wanted to use the equivalent common hunting rounds).

At 400yds that 7-08 has 0.3" less drop and 1.8" less drift (and slightly less energy)
At 600yds that 7-08 has 2.5" less drop and 4.8" less drift (and slightly more energy)

So the 7-08 is ballistically better as you said, but I can't see the night and day difference people seem to suggest. Or is this like a Ford/Holden thing around here? (yeah I'm kinda new here)

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## Spanners

And then we move to the 260 - king of the -08s  :Grin:

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## veitnamcam

> Figures plugged, using 10mph wind for arguments sake (yes, I realise neither of those will be the best possible round for each, just wanted to use the equivalent common hunting rounds).
> 
> At 400yds that 7-08 has 0.3" less drop and 1.8" less drift (and slightly less energy)
> At 600yds that 7-08 has 2.5" less drop and 4.8" less drift (and slightly more energy)
> 
> So the 7-08 is ballistically better as you said, but I can't see the night and day difference people seem to suggest. Or is this like a Ford/Holden thing around here? (yeah I'm kinda new here)



This is pretty much a long range site :Grin:  Now why on earth would you want to poke a big hole in something up close lol
http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...-45-70-a-2972/

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## gimp

> Figures plugged, using 10mph wind for arguments sake (yes, I realise neither of those will be the best possible round for each, just wanted to use the equivalent common hunting rounds).
> 
> At 400yds that 7-08 has 0.3" less drop and 1.8" less drift (and slightly less energy)
> At 600yds that 7-08 has 2.5" less drop and 4.8" less drift (and slightly more energy)
> 
> So the 7-08 is ballistically better as you said, but I can't see the night and day difference people seem to suggest. Or is this like a Ford/Holden thing around here? (yeah I'm kinda new here)


It depends on the bullet you use, you have the choice to use better bullets in the 7-08 at faster speeds than the .308 can manage for the same BC, ie, 162gr amax at ~2750fps

.30 cal 208gr amax is about the same BC but can't get it much more than 2500fps and it kicks much more than the 7mm. No not compared to a .375 but that's a kinda misleading comparison, the .375 kicks less than a .50BMG and then where do you go from there, it's not an apples to apples comparison is it

Is it waaaay better no, but it is better on the same case for less recoil and the same cost to shoot, there's no real reason to go with the .308 if you reload/shoot more than 200-300 meters, factory 7mm08 rifles will stabilise the good bullets, rah ran rah


I can't believe I'm so bored I'm posting on this thread. I should've known this would happen

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## gimp

If you're poking a hole in something up close, it doesn't seem to matter much what you use, I never had anything walk away from my .243, use the right bullet and hit it in the right place and it'll die with any reasonable calibre, therefore the only difference worth talking about is longer range difference 


Blah blah blah I'm going to go find something productive to do, like poking a taipan with a short stick

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## veitnamcam

Oh just to add if your a "recoil sensitive" person the best thing you could do is go bunny shooting with your hunting rifle. and i dont mean lying prone trying to shoot them from as far as possible I mean walking around shooting them at 25 75 y, you will be having to much fun to notice the noise or recoil :Wink:  shot heaps of bunnys with that 303 :Cool:

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## R93

> And then we move to the 260 - king of the -08s


If its AI' ed it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!

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## veitnamcam

> If you're poking a hole in something up close, it doesn't seem to matter much what you use, I never had anything walk away from my .243, use the right bullet and hit it in the right place and it'll die with any reasonable calibre, therefore the only difference worth talking about is longer range difference 
> 
> 
> Blah blah blah I'm going to go find something productive to do, like poking a taipan with a short stick


So of the literally hundreds(probably only just hundreds but hundreds non the less) of deer i have shot with the 308 how was i disadvantaged with it?

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## Spanners

> If its AI' ed it is.


Come on... you know its King in its factory form  :Have A Nice Day: 

308AI is actually something I have always wanted to do - I'm deff a 30cal bogan  :Thumbsup:

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## gimp

> So of the literally hundreds(probably only just hundreds but hundreds non the less) of deer i have shot with the 308 how was i disadvantaged with it?



If you shot them at short range, you weren't, because you could have used anything at all within reason and it would have done the same job

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## veitnamcam

The ORIGINAL post said about the invisible line at 800y
Once wind was sorted I have had consistent hits at 1140y EVERYONE needed sighters for wind that day.
Is it a long range cal. of course it bloody isnt. and as i said realistically 600 is it on animals.
708 is so small a gain its not worth considering.
Short range there is a definite cal advantage on game. If you dont believe this you need to shoot more game and watch more game be shot with differing cals. :Wink:

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## gimp

It must make things deader than dead. 


I actually own a .308 (it's my secret shame).

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## R93

> Yeah, but the original post was a joke......
> 
> I have long been a believer, that given the millions of different variable involved in terminal ballistics, a relevant sample, would be in the vicinity of 1000-5000 animals, per caliber, for the same shooter. Per projectile.



55gr hornady in .224 and buckshot win in my camp considering that scenario. Yay! Go buckshot. :Thumbsup:

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## Spanners

Its popularity is based on numbers

The most prolific caliber 2nd only to the 7.62x39?

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## gimp

.223 is probably more so


I think I have your dies. Or I gave them to Headcase. I forget.

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## veitnamcam

Yes I realize it was a joke as was my first post in the thread :Grin: 

It was only the recoil comment that drew me in....................Pussy :Grin:

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## Beavis

> Better bullets help, what're you using?


Yea I've been meaning to try some 75gr Hornady BTHP and Winchester power points etc. I've just been using Hornady Training loaded with their 55gr soft points. Lots of wtf moments with it. Example, I shot a big billy goat and a nanny in the chest at maybe 60m and they turned around and walked off. 10 minutes later I dialled out to 350m and was dropping goats across a gully like they were being hit by the fist of god. We jumped another mob that was about 150m away when we started firing. They were running across a hill side while we were laying into them and we thought we were missing. They started dropping and upon inspection they had multiple wounds, all of them in areas that should have killed or incapacitated them.

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## gimp

14.5"?

Too slow, maybe?

I'll go shoot some with 77gr SMK next week and report back. 60gr vmax maybe?

Pity the 75 amax won't fit in the mag.

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## Beavis

Na that was with my 16" Rock River. Velocity should be around the 3000fps mark, somebody told me they were getting 3100fps out of an 18" tube with it. 

On that same trip my mate shot a goat at about 20m with a 55gr Nosler varmint projectile, out of his 14.5" and it didn't fragment violently. It actually ran a few meters before collapsing. There was no evidence of bullet blow up, basically just performed like a soft point. I think that the 55gr Hornady soft point is just unpredictable. Sometimes it fragments, other times it pencils through. I did have one shot of it do catastrophic damage at closer range. Massive open exit wound in the neck/shoulder, arterial bleed and stuff, was pretty messy.

The 75gr BTHP (Hornady) is meant to be more reliable at killing than the 77gr Sierra's. Slightly higher BC too. I believe it is what they use in the 75gr TAP load. It is a shame you can't fit the A max's in an AR, I'd imagine they would be devastating, within reason.

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## gimp

Amax expands nicely in rabbits down to 1800fps impact IME so

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## Chris

[QUOTE=veitnamcam;38851]This is pretty much a long range site :Grin:  Now why on earth would you want to poke a big hole in something up close lol
So it drops on the spot & you don't need to chase the thing & finish the job.Like is often the case with a large bodied animal & a smaller center fire cartridge .I own 2 of them & not about to trade down any time soon .

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## baldbob

This thread has more go than a 308

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## gimp

Most things do.

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## Beavis

What about if you were shooting out to 600 yards max? Goats/deer. Still shit?

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## veitnamcam

Thats my realistic max with mine..........in good-make that perfect-conditions. Wind is your enemy even more than usual with the 308.
But on a good day with the right projectile it will flatten em.

To my knowledge there is no projectile that will *reliably*  expand on thin skinned game on a no bone shot past 700 at 308 velocity's.

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## Beavis

I really want a Howa. But they hamstring their choices by:

Not offering a .260

Making a Swede that doesn't shoot (don't think they make it anymore)

Making a 708 with a gumby pencil dick barrel

Making a .243 with a slow twist (not sure if it would have the remaining energy to work at that range)

Their .308 has a sensible twist - 1:10. But it still looks like crap compared to the 6.5's and 7mm's, even with the heavier pills.

I could get a blued Weatherby 708 but I really want a stainless

Guess I could get a Tikka in .260  :Sick:  But I want a Howa action.

I want a short action standard chambering, in a quality factory rifle, for normal hunting, a dabble in medium range hunting, and informal LR steel shooting. I've got first world problems. Seriously finding the right gun and caliber is doing my fucking head in.

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## veitnamcam

308 definitely isnt the pick of long range cals, impact velocity being the hold back on game.
Believe it or not mine was going alright at 1140y last time I tried on steel but windage is a lot more than the more sexy pills :Grin:

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## longrange308

mine goes through a waratah at 900m 
but like vc said you need a lot of scope adjustment :Have A Nice Day:

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## Beavis

I don't mind scope adjustment so long as it does the business. 600yds would be at the far end of the bell shaped curve anyway, on game. The price of the components is also attractive.

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## gimp

Will it stabilise 208gr? They make the .308 nearly attractive.


What's wrong with the Howa 6.5x55? It's sensible isn't it? 1:8" etc

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## Beavis

> Will it stabilise 208gr? They make the .308 nearly attractive.
> 
> 
> What's wrong with the Howa 6.5x55? It's sensible isn't it? 1:8" etc


I would presume so being a 1:10 twist. 

I've read a few forum postings on the interweb about guys who can't get their Howa 6.5's to shoot. Excessive free bore apparently, which I thought is a given with a Swede. I'd probably buy one if I saw it, just to try it. Wish they would just get with the program and make a .260

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## gimp

There are 6.5x55 Howas on t/me all the time


I bet SMK would still shoot

Not amazing for hunting, but.

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## Beavis

Wander what I'll end up with

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## gimp

I can sell you a used Howa in .308 with a 4x bushnell scope for $500. Screw a .260 barrel on, bingo, Howa .260 for like $1200.

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## Beavis

> I can sell you a used Howa in .308 with a 4x bushnell scope for $500. Screw a .260 barrel on, bingo, Howa .260 for like $1200.


I might actually be keen on that. That was a plan B - get a cheapish donor rifle. Got a pic or two?

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## gimp

Not currently, but I'll get back to you.

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## Beavis

> Not currently, but I'll get back to you.


Cool

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## veitnamcam

> Will it stabilise 208gr? They make the .308 nearly attractive.


If you run the numbers on 168,178,208 windage will be the same(or near enough not to matter) and they will all drop below 1600fps at about the same range 650y or there abouts. The wee case just cant push the big pills fast enough to take advantage of the bc.

However if just wanting to plink steel further out than that then the heavy pills start to win. :Have A Nice Day:

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## 7mmsaum

"wee little case"  hahaha, -for anyone wanting to keep their rifle but wanting more oomph with the heavier high BC projectiles Ream the chamber to saum, same case length, just check it fits in the mag.

Open up the bolt face, 300saum isnt so wee anymore  :Have A Nice Day: 

Scott trail at ssrnz.co.nz can do it for you in a heartbeat, just give him a call or email.

Otherwise the 308 with the 168 grainers is still good, just acknowledge its LR limitations and work within them.

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## Kitto

Because I'm not incredibly smart, I stubbornly decided to stick with 308 when I started looking at reloading/stretching the gun's legs. 
After a heap of shooting to get over recoil, addition of an uncomfortably loud muzzlebreak (ask gimps ears), a recoil pad softer than katy perry's tits, a tilty rail thing, and a heap of cocking around with 190 vlds, I've got a gun that performs as well as, well, a 7mm08. I've got an urge to start a 25-06 LR ability appreciation thread.

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## gimp

Mmm Katy Perry's rack

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## veitnamcam

> Mmm Katy Perry's rack


Meh

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## ChrisF

Hi Guys ,

Just saw this , NICE , however , PLEASE let no one show this thread to me 308 AW , as she thinks see is shit hot , and has more range than a blackpowder musket , however thats when she is running Lapua HPS ammo , 170gr lockbase at 2820 fps , nice bc and shoots into around 2.5 inche at 500yds .
She also shoots scenar 155gr at about 2950 fps .

Later Chris

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## distant stalker

trout certainly  gets a lot from his mossberg 308

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## Pop Shot

> trout certainly  gets a lot from his mossberg 308


Not to mention his Hawke scope as well.

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## Gutshot

Smashed a shot gun clay in 4 shots at 850m with tikka .308 monday. Today shot a clay in 2 shots at 850m. Good fun

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## ChrisF

Hi Guys ,

Just saw this , NICE , however , PLEASE let no one show this thread to me 308 AW , as she thinks see is shit hot , and has more range than a blackpowder musket , however thats when she is running Lapua HPS ammo , 170gr lockbase at 2820 fps , nice bc and shoots into around 2.5 inche at 500yds .
She also shoots scenar 155gr at about 2950 fps .

Later Chris

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## distant stalker

trout certainly  gets a lot from his mossberg 308

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## Pop Shot

> trout certainly  gets a lot from his mossberg 308


Not to mention his Hawke scope as well.

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## Gutshot

Smashed a shot gun clay in 4 shots at 850m with tikka .308 monday. Today shot a clay in 2 shots at 850m. Good fun

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