# Firearms and Shooting > Shotgunning >  Reloading for black powder

## el borracho

I have a s/s shotgun being sent to me to purchase which was built in the late 1800s   .The gun is quite beautiful with ornate engraving over all of the round action and side lever  .I am looking forward to using this for my upland game shooting and believe it is not a heavy gun which suits me even better as I walk for 4-5 hours in the day .
Anyway the gun is a Damascus barreled gun and will require black powder loads .Who knows about reloading in a modern cartridge for black powder ? I know squat

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## mikee

Have a chat to Neil Hayes (Hayes and Associates)
He sells BP guns including new Muzzle Loading 12g SXS's cause I was looking for options just in case ( you know the whole lead vs not lead shot debate)

Black powder and muzzle loading accessories

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## el borracho

cheers Mikee good advice !  Iam wondering if a black powder s/s gun ever gets to use the second barrel given the smoke  lol

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## mikee

And another post since I can't edit my original

Beautiful gun by the way, is it 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 chambers?

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## el borracho

got the specs at work ! Will put some chamber gauges in on Friday -yes beautiful looking gun but we will see on Friday when we snap lock it together.Given its age -circa late 1800s it will have a bit of wear   and the stock is not the original although not an unattractive piece of wood  .The side lever was a transitional phase going from under lever to top lever .The case is original with the matching numbers for gun and case

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## lophortyx

the gun looks in very good order. provided the bore thickness is close to original and you know the chamber size,it should be no problem to shoot up to 1 1/8th loads using modern powder. i shoot with a w.greener hammer gun made in 1877,it has been BP. only ,but i have fired falcon 30gm 2 i/2 inch nitro through it no problems. i have two other damascus barreled guns a 16ga and a 12ga i regularly shoot modern powders through, no problems.these guns where made in 1884 and 1888.quality damascus is just as strong if not stronger than the steel of the day, just don't put waterfowl loads through them. i love the sidelevers, stephen grant made them popular, and some manufacturers still make them today. there is a lot of uniformed tripe about steel shot which has led to the demise of many a good sxs and u/o.  long live two barrels.

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## mikee

but the smell of BP is soooo much cooler and not to mention safer too either that or Pyrodex if you can find it

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## Maca49

I've got some 12 g brass if you want a couple

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## el borracho

> I've got some 12 g brass if you want a couple


what is the brass for?

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## res

Trying to stop dogy old Damascus barrels coming apart-they need all the help they can get as rust can form between the folds. 

Cool old gun, if your planning on shooting it I hope it's been checked out by someone you trust

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## Maca49

To put the load in ah you need it and it doesn't melt

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## el borracho

can you post an image of it? I have zero experience with black powder and its components

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## Maca49

Later today

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## el borracho

> Later today


thanks Maca49 !

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## Pointer

As mentioned above, get the wall thickness measured before you shoot it ( you should have asked for measurements before you brought it to be fair if is to be shot), Robert Dollimore at Tarawera is the man for all things old and nice. Don't let Damascus barrels put you off but er on the side of caution. If it is 2 3/4 chamber then I would be its been nitro proofed at some stage. Put a pic up of the markings under the barrel if you can

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## el borracho

It arrives Friday and I will seek clarification from the seller on this and also have the walls  measured myself with a Scientific Mcwallometer.

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## Pointer

Taking any metal out of a Damascus barrel for the sake of polishing out some pitting would relegate it to wall hanger in my opinion, in fact I have a nice sidelock here I'm afraid to use for that reason. I wasn't aware of it until I ran maybe 100+ nitro loads through it (it is nitro proofed but machined out too thin to get rid of pitting) and I was beginning to notice some existing bulges and creases slowly growing  :Grin:

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## el borracho

I will be very pleased if this gun is in a purchasable useable state as it looks like a very pretty piece and one Id be proud to own

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## Maca49

12 GAUGE BRASS So load powder (grade FFG) then cardboard wad from milk carton, then grease cookie, then maybe two wads from beer mats/coaster, bit of a cushion for the shot, then shot,then wad held with small dob of wax. I have load data at home. I usually mount a new, old, gun in an old tyre and fire with a string attached first few times for safety. Have used light smokeless loads as the proofing, as Bp wont have the same pressure. but be careful first few times

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## el borracho

very interesting  Maca49 !! Can one buy the 12g brass any where still ? I might catch up with you at some stage if your free in BOP this season

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## res

> Can one buy the 12g brass any where still ?


I got some from gunworks a year ago

Still have 19 of them I would sell as the gun started coming apart under very light loads.

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## Maca49

> very interesting  Maca49 !! Can one buy the 12g brass any where still ? I might catch up with you at some stage if your free in BOP this season


You can buy it from the states, They are allowed to ship shotgun brass direct, its cheap but I might have some new stuff at home, Ive got a 1904 William Evans ive been shooting BP with but it leads the barrel and its a pain to remove! Always keen for a shoot and if you miss theyll choke to death

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## Maca49

> 12 GAUGE BRASSAttachment 25147 So load powder (grade FFG) then cardboard wad from milk carton, then grease cookie, then maybe two wads from beer mats/coaster, bit of a cushion for the shot, then shot,then wad held with small dob of wax. I have load data at home. I usually mount a new, old, gun in an old tyre and fire with a string attached first few times for safety. Have used light smokeless loads as the proofing, as Bp wont have the same pressure. but be careful first few times


You cant use Platic wads or Hulls as the heat of the BP burning will melt it enough to finely line the bore with plastic, dangerous after a while! It comes out like a plastic condom when you put a cleaning rod thru

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## el borracho

who sells paper cartridges ? Probably the English one thinks? So the brass shells help to create more pressure is that correct ?

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## el borracho

Interesting read !!!

There’s something tremendously satisfying about walking into the field with an antique black powder hammer gun and bagging a bird or two.

Letting loose with an old gun and feeling the slow, gentle and unmistakable push of recoil from black powder is an altogether different experience to that of firing nitro cartridges.

For a start there’s a real sense of history to the occasion.

And then there’s the wonderful smell of powder and clouds of smoke billowing away on the breeze. Magical!

I won’t tell you how long I’ve been loading centrefire black powder shotgun cartridges but the first I made were for a hammer Purdey that cost me £5, so you can see that it was a fair while ago.

I shot the Purdey for years and ‘black’ became something of a trademark.

It had the advantage that those in charge told me it was reassuring when they heard a shot somewhere on the estate, to know it was me and not someone who had no right to be there.

That Purdey was my pride and joy and exposed me to the pleasure of shooting a top quality gun, which is why I tell people who own a vintage black powder gun to use it with appropriate cartridges and enjoy the experience.

GETTING LOADED
There is no mystery or difficulty producing cartridges once you have the powder and a police licence to store it at home.

To get it you have to jump through a few official hoops, but I can honestly say that, with the police forces I have dealt with, I have never had any problems.

Considering what it does, gunpowder is remarkably easy to use.

Of course you have to be sensible – it’s very flammable, so no smoking or ignition sources, please. It is also a laxative, due to the sulphur content and was once used as a medicine – so don’t lick your fingers!

Beyond keeping it dry and using the appropriate grain size – ‘medium’ does most things for a breech-loader of medium calibre – there’s not much else to say.

The first cartridges I loaded were intended to mirror the ammunition that was fed to the Purdey when new – that’s to say roll-topped paper cases. We didn’t have plastics then!

Luckily I was much into patterning my guns and soon discovered that about one in five shots produced ‘cartwheeled’ patterns.

That’s to say that at 40 yards there was an 18in – 24in hole in the middle of the pattern with all the shot arranged as a ‘rim’ about six inches wide around it.

Roll-turnover cartridges can sometimes throw cartwheeled patterns. To avoid these David now reloads plastic cases with crimped ends.

I changed to waterproof plastic cases with a folded crimp and never saw another cartwheel, which provoked more than one discussion with those who love their roll-top paper cases, and the evocative smell of the Shellac varnish.

CARTRIDGE COSTS
In round figures you can load black powder cartridges for half the price of those few commercial brands, which are still available.

More importantly, you can produce ammunition that is tailored perfectly to the gun you’re using. My main output today are 25gm 12-bore loads in a 65mm case and a 21 gm 16-bore load, again in a 65mm case which are done on a modern multi-station Texan reloading machine tool that produces neat crimps, re-sizing the cases, de-caps, re-caps and measures the charges.

Given all that has been written about shooting with black powder remarkably little has been said about the lubrication of the obdurating wad.

When I started I used Kleena wads for the simple reason that these were the only items available in the gun shop and I knew no better.

These vegetable fibre wads were coated in what I believe was hard paraffin wax and while OK for smokeless powder, something else is needed to deal with the much greater residue produced by black.

I learned this lesson shooting a muzzle loader with commercial wads, which had been soaked in vegetable oil.

When I came to clean it the lack of fouling was a revelation. Now, of course, a muzzle-loader wad makes two trips through the barrel, one slow – powered by the shooter – and the next, a lot quicker with the powder gasses behind it.

The problem is that, while a wad almost oozing oil is OK in a muzzle loader, centrefire cartridges have to be stored, get warm and are carried in a jumble.

You can still buy commercially loaded black powder cartridges, but it’s cheaper to load your own.

Someone suggested that oily wadded cartridges should be stored crimped end down in the fridge, but I can’t see that playing well.

FOUL STUFF
My suspicion is that any oily lubricant will soften powder residue in the bores sufficiently to allow the wad to remove most of the fouling left by the previous shot.

Current favourite is a mixture of mutton tallow and some sort of oil – either cooking or neat’s foot – to get a better consistency.

This is melted and the home-cut felt wads rolled in it. To help keep this goo away from the powder, a wad cut from a waxed carton goes underneath the main wad. Which neatly brings up the whole question of cutting wads.

A wad punch is a very useful tool. With it you can cut a greater variety of wads than can be bought and in small quantities as needed.

These I cut on the end grain of a log that’s about three feet long.

Reloading with black powder is a piece of cake on David’s multistation Texan machine.

If a lot are being cut at once, pull up a chair and sit like a cobbler with the log held between your knees and work in comfort.

FELT OR PLASTIC?
On the subject of wads, there is much discussion for and against the use of plastic. Personally, I believe an over-powder wad cup gives a better seal which is why I use the cut off bottoms of fired wads harvested from the clay shooting ground.

I wash and dry them to ensure they are free of grit and they seem to work well. No plastic fouling is left in the bore as some sages predict and I suspect the reason for this are those fatted felt wads which leave the bores well-oiled.

Another debating point is the amount of pressure that should be applied to the wad during the loading process.

My belief, based on the views of 19th century writers, is that you only need to use sufficient pressure to seat the over-powder wad firmly.

I see no virtue in trying to crush the powder grains, even if you could.

The heavier ramming action given to a muzzle loader is simply done to ensure that the powder charge gets to the bottom of the nipple.

COME CLEAN
When all the shots for the day have been fired, the barrels have to be thoroughly cleaned to stop the corrosive black powder residues pitting the bore of the barrels.

You can use boiling water and detergent (all that is needed), but if well greased wads have been used a screwed up ball of newspaper or kitchen towel will remove most of the residue in a couple of passes.

The hot water then does the final clear up. If, however, the wads are not properly lubricated, then the hot water will remove the caked-on hard fouling.

All of this loading and cleaning combines to give the user greater involvement with his gun – just like a muzzle loader, but different. Give it a try!
Read more at Black powder cartridges! - Shooting UK

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## Maca49

Thats interesting using plastic, but my experience says no, nothing more disconcerting than pushing a plastic tube from the barrel or your gun, but I believe some guys do it. Pressures must go up, but thats my mechanical brain saying shit on that. I use cork tile for wads under the shot or you can get industrial felt, its expensive. My cork wadded loads using #7 shot are quite OK on clays. I think I have some #6 and #8 shot as well. I have a few cardboard cartridges but brass is easier. I cant see the pressures being greater using brass, its all in the same chamber.I have made wad cutters and loading tools. I also dont believe in crushing the powder, but on on the most important things in loading BP is NOT to have ANY air space in the loaded cartridge, be it shotgun or rifle. Ive got some loaded 12 G if you want to bang some thru.

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## Maca49

Oh on the brass, regarding pressure I see what you could mean YOU DONT CRIMP BRASS like cardboard, the last over wad you "fix" with a touch of silicone or wax

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## el borracho

gun arrived and its a beauty butttttt!!! . The ribs and barrels have come unstuck and need reattaching $1000 --the stock is a refurb or new and very nice buttttt cast hard right not straight as told, you guessed im a cack hander .Anyways in short of to Robert Dollimore for a consult to see if its worth doing as the now price due to this has become very attractive .The scrolling is nice also but the pics are nicer than reality as the action inst as silver bright as what ive posted  ........

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## Maca49

Was there rust/pitting under the ribs or clean?

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## el borracho

tomorrow we will do a quick survey for barrel wall thickness and to see its in proof and then discuss altering the stock.If ....if..if these things are all good and Mr Dollimore says its worth throwing a little at it i will . if not it goes back to the seller. I like it and hope its worth the effort

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## Maca49

Make sure he takes you into his gun room! Drool drool drool!

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## Maca49

Here a couple auctioned at Christies in 1995

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## el borracho

i had a very good few hours with Robert Dolimore  today and learnt alot! We decided not to proceed to do more with this gun at this stabe as the potential for heavy rust pitting once the barrels are taken off the ribs was great and as i haven't paid for it yet we laid it to rest . its a shame as the action on this gun is very nice

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## Maca49

Get some new barrels made! Rob priced a total refurb on my William Evans inc new stk at 15k asked what it would be worth finished and he estimated 10k so that was a dead duck! Rob is an amazing craftsman looking at some of his work and it's a privilege to spend some time with him, especially in that gun room!g :Thumbsup:

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## Pointer

Glad you took some of the advice above on board and didn't get stuck with a lemon! 

There was a Powell in his lock up that fitted me like a glove - Could spend hours in his workshop! Maybe be better off buying something hes already restored, like that pair of Westley Richards he has (had?). Nice and short in the stock, ready for a man of your stature  :Have A Nice Day:

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## el borracho

yes that pair was nice and affordable but to much cast to bend for a lefty .Robert is going to make a few calls to see if he can find something for me . the trip was well worth while for sure and his advice invaluable

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## el borracho

funny also yesterday i met gappedaxe of the forum in person . he happens to be habour master , medical officer , security for the tarawera area he is in . He saw my setters in the car and saig hey i know you! nice to meet him in person

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## Maca49

Another forum good dude! :Thumbsup:

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## Pointer

Are you actually left eye dominant?

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## Maca49

He's one for your quail! 4" bore!

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## yosamitesam

> 12 GAUGE BRASSAttachment 25147 So load powder (grade FFG) then cardboard wad from milk carton, then grease cookie, then maybe two wads from beer mats/coaster, bit of a cushion for the shot, then shot,then wad held with small dob of wax. I have load data at home. I usually mount a new, old, gun in an old tyre and fire with a string attached first few times for safety. Have used light smokeless loads as the proofing, as Bp wont have the same pressure. but be careful first few times


This was a really helpful guide thank you. It seems reloading these is more trial and error / experience as there's little load data. I personally want light loads for cowboy action and was hoping to use Trail Boss not BP.

I've read issues with these specific hulls in 'some' cases where the recess around the primer in the brass head has left some slower powders unburnt. In some articles people plug the bottom with plastic, I was thinking to fill up the base with a little molten lead, then copy your load data but adjusted for Trail Boss. Is lead filler a good idea?

On a side note, I'm not a hot glue fan, wax seems ok. What was used 'back in the day' to seal off loaded hulls? Pitch? Pine resin? Shellac? Just curious.

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## zimmer

When I loaded for my 16 gauge bp using plastic hulls I sealed the overshot wad in place with a run of PVA glue around the outer edges of the wad.
The PVA is normally not suitable for gluing the plastic used in shotgun hulls but I never had a wad come loose.

Good test was after firing just one barrel with a side by side, all the shot didn't run out of the second barrel when the gun was lowered due to the wad being disloded. Seen thus happen to other shooters.

Don't think the PVA would be suitable with brass hulls though.

Back in the day they roll crimped over the overshot wad with the original cardboard type hulls.

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## Micky Duck

couple of dabs of $2 shop nail polish will hold most things in place.

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## yosamitesam

I was thinking nail polish/shellac or waterglass (sodium silicate) from somewhere like this.

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## Micky Duck

cowboy action loads with trail boss should be piece of wees to make up..... you want ????oz of 7s??? old rule was same VOLUME of shot as black powder..... strangely enough the starting point for trail boss in centrefire is 80% of volume of smokeless...... PERSONALLY I would run with load of same volume and see how it feels.... you shooting break open gun with no chokes...wads are surplus to requirements,circle of felt/cork is perfect,card over top of shot and nail polish it in place......it wont matter if case is only 3/4s full UNLIKE plastic hulls,you wont have wad pressure to worry about,just make sure no airspace around BP..... but you using TB so not so much of an issue.sounds like you have primers sorted.... have a look at Wingmans thread on everlasting .410 shells.....that will answer some questions and give you ideas.

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## Kiwi Sapper

Ye Gods,,,,,,,,yosamitesam has been excavating and has has revived  "el borracho." 

 Well done, but let us hope that he has not also awoken "The Mummy".



What ever happens , the development of an active BP thread is something to be looked forward to.

P.S. @yosamitesam  my thanks for the link to Sodium Sillicate....I have been looking for as supply to use as a sealant for the over shot card in my period 12 bore brass.

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## Marty Henry

You can use plastic cases for bp ( I do) but don't expect too many reloads from them, if you have one a roll crimper works well simply cut the petals off put a card over your shot and crimp away.

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## Maca49

> You can use plastic cases for bp ( I do) but don't expect too many reloads from them, if you have one a roll crimper works well simply cut the petals off put a card over your shot and crimp away.


If you use a plastic wad, you can line the barrel with plastic, I used plastic once and a full length condom was the result when cleaning. Never used plastic again?

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## Marty Henry

Don't worry  @Maca49 I only use greased pinex ones. Made that mistake about 30 years ago and won't be doing that again!

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## Micky Duck

steel shot wads seem to handle it ok..the plastic hulls dont like crude BP very much,the wee lumps of sulphur stick to inside case walls and burn their way out LOL.

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## Marty Henry

Use a better class of bp then, or is that being elitist?

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## Kiwi Sapper

> Use a better class of bp then, or is that being elitist?


"Elitist?"...The Jury is still out on that, but definitely illogical in view of the current powder range shortage worsening.

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## Micky Duck

that would also entail forking out $$$$$$$ to purchase commercial BP.
That would spoil the appeal for me.
cheap cheap cheap goes the sparrow.

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## Kiwi Sapper

> that would also entail forking out $$$$$$$ to purchase commercial BP.  That would spoil the appeal for me.
> cheap cheap cheap goes the sparrow.


Should "Push come to shove" and you need to look for new employment, you will have experience for this........

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## yosamitesam

My pleasure @Kiwi-Sapper - I do like to dig until I find something shiny.

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## yosamitesam

> cowboy action loads with trail boss should be piece of wees to make up..... you want ????oz of 7s??? old rule was same VOLUME of shot as black powder..... strangely enough the starting point for trail boss in centrefire is 80% of volume of smokeless...... PERSONALLY I would run with load of same volume and see how it feels.... you shooting break open gun with no chokes...wads are surplus to requirements,circle of felt/cork is perfect,card over top of shot and nail polish it in place......it wont matter if case is only 3/4s full UNLIKE plastic hulls,you wont have wad pressure to worry about,just make sure no airspace around BP..... but you using TB so not so much of an issue.sounds like you have primers sorted.... have a look at Wingmans thread on everlasting .410 shells.....that will answer some questions and give you ideas.


Appreciate the tips. Much of what I read on T.B. used in shot shells is it's mass is bulkier but I think I'll load a few at different weights and try through a chrono. My shotgun is like an anvil so if I blow a hull it's no great loss though Cowboy loads are usually pretty weak. Now to get a cartful of #7

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## Cordite

> You can use plastic cases for bp ( I do) but don't expect too many reloads from them, if you have one a roll crimper works well simply cut the petals off put a card over your shot and crimp away.


You can also just not crimp. Instead, put a bead of hot melt glue around the edge of the card covering the shot.

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## Micky Duck

> Appreciate the tips. Much of what I read on T.B. used in shot shells is it's mass is bulkier but I think I'll load a few at different weights and try through a chrono. My shotgun is like an anvil so if I blow a hull it's no great loss though Cowboy loads are usually pretty weak. Now to get a cartful of #7


if you down this way I could chuck a pound or three at you no worries at all......stop me kicking it every time I go to use vice on bench.

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