# Firearms and Shooting > Firearms, Optics and Accessories >  At least it's a nice colour green - NZDF choose AR to replace Steyrs

## Kscott

New Zealand Army Selects LMT To Replace Steyr AUG - The Firearm Blog

NZDF






> Following the trials programme phase of the evaluation of tenders, the Ministry has selected Lewis Machine & Tool Co Inc of the USA as preferred Tenderer. Subject to the Ministry undertaking a Due Dilligence activity and negotiation of a contract package, New Zealand Government approval will be sought to proceed to award of a contract.


Just need Govt to sign the cheque.

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## 300CALMAN

> New Zealand Army Selects LMT To Replace Steyr AUG - The Firearm Blog
> 
> NZDF
> 
> Attachment 39785
> 
> 
> 
> Just need Govt to sign the cheque.


Yay bout time we moved to something decent, now how do I get back in??? Better call up the Sargent.

Oh that right I'm now far too old/fat/lazy and cynical.  :36 17 4:

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## MassiveAttack

I like to set trends in firearm fashion rather than follow them. Nzdf must have heard that I just brought an ar so have decided to follow suite.

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## Shooter

I am sure that the final product will look some what different to that picture in both colour and accessories/optics etc... As for the Steyr, it has served this country well, and if it wasn't so bloody expensive then we would most likely have seen it carry on.

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## dansus

Same company they selected for there designated marksmen rifles in 7.62. interesting to se what configuration they end up getting from then there was a lot of complaints about the effective range of the Steyr

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## Yukon

I wonder if their trial included the AK-12 or A-545.

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## Ryan

> I wonder if their trial included the AK-12 or A-545.


The following companies were selected for the Individual Weapon trials phase: 

Beretta New Zealand Limited 
Česká zbrojovka a.s. 
Colt Canada Corporation 
FN HERSTAL 
STEYR MANNLICHER GmbH 
XTEK Limited (Sig Sauer) 
Heckler & Kock GmbH 
Lewis Machine & Tools Co Inc 

No mention of Kalashnikov Concern.

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## Shooter

> I wonder if their trial included the AK-12 or A-545.


Nope, they did/would not fit the user requirement.

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## R93

The m16 A2 won the last IW trial hands down but it only took 30 yrs to get an AR platform in service.
Now they are back to square one retraining weapons techs and TOETS/drills among other things.
Good decision and about time.
As for the AK platform it would never get a look in with us or any Western block force for obvious reasons to the tactically minded.


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## 300CALMAN

> I am sure that the final product will look some what different to that picture in both colour and accessories/optics etc... As for the Steyr, it has served this country well, and if it wasn't so bloody expensive then we would most likely have seen it carry on.


Well from what I know the Army did want the AR-15 to start with (remember they had M16 A1s) but Colt was not prepared to allow local licensed manufacture and yes they were expensive. There was also the question of the Government of the day and the fact that they were an American product. The Steyer is technically advanced and has some nice features but it has fiddly small parts (seen the piston and gas adjuster!) and oddities like the sling swivel mount which holds the but pad and trigger mechanism in-place.  It is one thing to shoot something on the range and another to look after it in the field. Apparently it is not that popular with many of the troops (probably those who have used ARs).

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## Kscott

> I wonder if their trial included the AK-12 or A-545.


Should've just done a deal with Tipple and GC, would've saved the taxpayer a fortune  :Thumbsup:

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## 7mmsaum

> New Zealand Army Selects LMT To Replace Steyr AUG - The Firearm Blog
> 
> NZDF
> 
> Attachment 39785
> 
> 
> 
> Just need Govt to sign the cheque.


And for it to be chambered in 300 wsm

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## chrome

That could be our new flag


Sent from the swamp

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## Shooter

> Well from what I know the Army did want the AR-15 to start with (remember they had M16 A1s) but Colt was not prepared to allow local licensed manufacture and yes they were expensive. There was also the question of the Government of the day and the fact that they were an American product. The Steyer is technically advanced and has some nice features but it has fiddly small parts (seen the piston and gas adjuster!) and oddities like the sling swivel mount which holds the but pad and trigger mechanism in-place.  It is one thing to shoot something on the range and another to look after it in the field. Apparently it is not that popular with many of the troops (probably those who have used ARs).


I'm happy enough with the move to the LMT don't get me wrong but the media has painted a picture of how the steyr is "not liked by troops" or "Cant hit the side of a barn" or whatever but the bottom line is that it has serverd us more than well over the past 29 years! As for small parts, it breaks down in to 4 main groups for field cleaning... there is no need to be messing with it any more than that when on patrol.  Sure going to miss the bullup too.

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## dansus

Only thing that  let it down was the optics was not easy to identify targets greater than 100m even on the range all you would see is the stupid black donut  :Sad:

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## 300CALMAN

Yeah everyone has their opinion. Cant hit the side of a barn door? I won't accuse the Steyer of being inaccurate because a good one was easy 2-3moa.  I must say that I found the Australian made ones not quite on par with the Austrian versions as far as build quality goes. The 1.5 optics were a bit annoying, worst of both worlds, mud rendered them useless and not much magnification. The pistol sized iron sights are also too short for decent aiming. I think I would enjoy the rail version with a Trijicon more. Who knows one day I may get sentimental and purchase one of GunShittys over priced Acat ones  :O O:

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## Bonecrusher

> Should've just done a deal with Tipple and GC, would've saved the taxpayer a fortune



Isn't he still on the chain gang in a USA Facility breaking rocks   :36 17 4:

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## Daggers_187

> Yeah everyone has their opinion. Cant hit the side of a barn door? I won't accuse the Steyer of being inaccurate because a good one was easy 2-3moa


I managed to shoot an honest inch when I did my first zero before my first AWQ.

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## 300CALMAN

> I managed to shoot an honest inch when I did my first zero before my first AWQ.


Well done! An inch and a half to two was the best I managed from memory. It depended a lot on the ammo also, i think we had some european stuff at one stage FN? that was quite good.

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## R93

The AUG was friggin accurate despite the trigger and that was about it.
It was somewhat depressing shooting against USA Olympic team members using an AR with irons and getting toweled up at comps using the same ammo.
Poms with there 4x SA-80 were good as well. 




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## res

My civi aug seems very accurate, despite having one of the worst bang switch's I own-and it's by far the worst for the price bracket it's in. 
Under 1.5" at 100 with a acog and the same cheep ammo I use for service class in my ar

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## Daggers_187

> Well done! An inch and a half to two was the best I managed from memory. It depended a lot on the ammo also, i think we had some european stuff at one stage FN? that was quite good.


Yeah, and depends on what rifle you have as well. I never thought the AUG was too bad, it's actually very nice to carry in a conventional situation (no body armour, long distance dismounted patrols.)

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## Daggers_187

> As for the AK platform it would never get a look in with us or any Western block force for obvious reasons to the tactically minded.


I think it's more of a strategic issue than a tactical one.  :Wink:

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## R93

> I think it's more of a strategic issue than a tactical one.


Effective range and weapons employment is a tactical issue.
Not strategic.


RNZIR doctrine still dictates a 
section/det fire capability that would exceed the 7.62x39.




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## ZG47

> Well from what I know the Army did want the AR-15 to start with (remember they had M16 A1s) but Colt was not prepared to allow local licensed manufacture and yes they were expensive. There was also the question of the Government of the day and the fact that they were an American product. The Steyer is technically advanced and has some nice features but it has fiddly small parts (seen the piston and gas adjuster!) and oddities like the sling swivel mount which holds the but pad and trigger mechanism in-place.  It is one thing to shoot something on the range and another to look after it in the field. Apparently it is not that popular with many of the troops (probably those who have used ARs).


It was my understanding at the time that:

NZ was offered a very good deal, i.e. cheaper than the Absolutely Useless Gun, on the M16A2; because the USMC had yet to adopt it BUT the Aussies put the kibosh on that because they wanted the AUG manufacturing rights. Din Collings later advised me that the AUG purchase was finally swung by a butter deal.

The Steyr is lower quality in every way than the L1A1 and M16A1/2! Critical parts can become unserviceable after fewer than 1,000 rounds. The cocking handle is exposed and vulnerable to breakage. The rifle is excessively vulnerable to dust and dirt and, so far as I am concerned, the decision to adopt it was a treasonous act, constituting deliberate endangerment of NZ military personnel and those whom they are assigned to protect.

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## Shooter

> It was my understanding at the time that:
> 
> NZ was offered a very good deal, i.e. cheaper than the Absolutely Useless Gun, on the M16A2; because the USMC had yet to adopt it BUT the Aussies put the kibosh on that because they wanted the AUG manufacturing rights. Din Collings later advised me that the AUG purchase was finally swung by a butter deal.
> 
> The Steyr is lower quality in every way than the L1A1 and M16A1/2! Critical parts can become unserviceable after fewer than 1,000 rounds. The cocking handle is exposed and vulnerable to breakage. The rifle is excessively vulnerable to dust and dirt and, so far as I am concerned, the decision to adopt it was a treasonous act, constituting deliberate endangerment of NZ military personnel and those whom they are assigned to protect.


"Deliberate endangerment" Not a chance... Having used both weapon extensively I would grab a Steyr over a A1/A2 any day especially one of the same manufacture date. Never seen a cocking handle break and it is in fact in a far more "usable" position for combat then the AR platform.  I am sad to see it go as I would have loved to move to the enhanced Steyr as the our Aussie brothers are, but with a price tag in excess of 6K it was never going to happen. 

  It is annoying to see all this hate towards a weapon that is very capable and as I have said has served us well.  In saying that bring on the LMT! as evolution of people, weapons and other equipment is a fact of life and we must just get on with it.

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## matto1234

When do the old steyrs come on the market?  :Wink:

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## Daggers_187

> Effective range and weapons employment is a tactical issue.
> Not strategic.
> 
> 
> RNZIR doctrine still dictates a 
> section/det fire capability that would exceed the 7.62x39.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was referring to compatibility of ammunition and magazines with other nations.

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## jakesae101

> When do the old steyrs come on the market?


from what im told they wont the govt will pay to destroy them like some others that were destroyed recently

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## R93

A cocking handle or worse was broken just about every jump we did.

It wasn't grunt proof. It suited the Fibua role, not the green role imo.
Accurate, functioned well in the right environment and apart from the first few years of it inception it served it's time. 
But at the end of the day it was a political buy.
Some recent weapon purchases the military has made have been end user buys, and it is good to see.

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## R93

> I was referring to compatibility of ammunition and magazines with other nations.


Wasn't what I was referring to though eh. 😆

I was trained to pick up any available weapon on the fight through if I needed one, and continue killing bad guys until the re-org.
If you done your job right, the bad guys position would have a lot of small arms lying around with full mags attached.😊




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## MassiveAttack

> from what im told they wont the govt will pay to destroy them like some others that were destroyed recently


UN policy (which NZ follows loyally) is that military surplus arms should be destroyed rather than sold to the public so all that good stuff ended with the 303 era.

Even if they did by some miracle sell them then they would all be E cat.  The sad reality is that if you want to own a military surplus rifle you have to buy a chinese copy for most models.

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## Shooter

> A cocking handle or worse was broken just about every jump we did.
> 
> It wasn't grunt proof. It suited the Fibua role, not the green role imo.
> Accurate, functioned well in the right environment and apart from the first few years of it inception it served it's time. 
> But at the end of the day it was a political buy.
> Some recent weapon purchases the military has made have been end user buys, and it is good to see.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


Well the cocking handle would be the least of your worries these days, given the multitude of accessories that are attached to the weapon.  The term "Grunt proof" in my opinion is a cop out, it comes down to correct "equipment husbandry" as a weapon will only operate as good as the soldier behind it.  As for only been suited to FIBUA, are you referring to the caliber or the weapon?

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## R93

Weapon. Caliber is irrelevant.

Accessories? We are talking Nz Army yeah? Name one accessory employed by a private infantryman besides specialty optics or 40 mm in the light infantry role. There are none.


As for grunt proof the Army does not buy seperate weapons for a parade ground drill, weapons drill and the like. They get hammered everyday of service. Any soldier would find that obvious.

Over cleaning, highly repetitious TOET testing and the like, required by teeth arms, fuck a weapon more than any operational service.






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## Shooter

> Weapon. Caliber is irrelevant.
> 
> Accessories? We are talking Nz Army yeah? Name one accessory employed by a private infantryman besides specialty optics or 40 mm in the light infantry role. There are none.
> 
> 
> As for grunt proof the Army does not buy seperate weapons for a parade ground drill, weapons drill and the like. They get hammered everyday of service. Any soldier would find that obvious.
> 
> Over cleaning, highly repetitious TOET testing and the like, required by teeth arms, fuck a weapon more than any operational service.
> 
> ...


Well as you are referring to weapon, then you are indeed very misguided. They Steyr moves through the close country a tad better then your standard AR primarily due to overall length, the center of gravity due the bulpup design enables the non-master hand to move from the weapon to move foliage and the like without loosing stability of the weapon.

As for "grunt proof" 29 years and counting is a bloody good innings for a modern weapon systems that's for sure, if they were as bad as you remember then we would not have many left in service. But I still have a problem with the term as insinuates that a "grunt" does not take care of his gear. Milspec is just that, it is not bomb proof as with any weapon system.

Accessories... Acog, J-dot, Pec-15, PRR remote switch, Torch, UNS sight or T2 for a start. Things have progressed a shit load since you got out in 2001.  Contrary to popular belief the New Zealand soldier is one of the best personally equipped soldiers in the world.

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## Kscott

Meh, things went downhill after these were upgraded.



 :Thumbsup:

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## R93

Misguided? OK. 
I was on the trial that selected the AUG/C9 
I have 20 yrs of being trained and training infantry soldiers.
I carried an AUG for the majority of that time.
I could buy a Styer tomorrow but I would never own one based on my experience carrying one all over the world.
Take it for what you will. The defence force has made a good decision replacing them. Obviously others have the same opinion.


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## Shooter

> Misguided? OK. 
> I was on the trial that selected the AUG/C9 
> I have 20 yrs of being trained and training infantry soldiers.
> I carried an AUG for the majority of that time.
> I could buy a Styer tomorrow but I would never own one based on my experience carrying one all over the world.
> Take it for what you will. The defence force has made a good decision replacing them. Obviously others have the same opinion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


I'm not saying your full of shit and don't know what your talking about... But given that when you joined in 84 you were part of an era that had emotive ties to the previous weapon I can see why you are not a believer in the weapon, much like those who are in the same boat you were moving on to the LMT fully from the Steyr. Oh and by my maths 1984-2001 is not 20 years...

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## R93

You assume a lot. We were emotive over a weapon system? 😆😆


I work in the same capacity now. So over 20 yrs in that type of training environment. 

But this has been getting off topic for to long now. Something I tend to do.
As I said the defence force has seen fit to replace it so it's no longer an issue at the end of the day.
The new platform no doubt will have its own limitations.


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## von tempsky fan

why is it our SAS get issued better kit and weapons as in the Ar15 than our regulars? who have over the decades always had to either swap or steal better equipment from our allies in conflicts. Surely there wouldn't be that much difference in price?

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## 300CALMAN

:O O: 

Everyone has their opinion  :Grin: 

PRIOR to joining the army in the 1990s I came with no particular prior opinion of the Steyer or emotional attachment. Yes they worked and had some good and some bad. They are shorter than a AR and have longer range than a AK (well the Trajectory is flatter nothing more). But a lot of Grunts didn't like them, especially those who have used other systems. 

Regarding the coking handles, one of my mates had one break on patrol with the plastic coming off and the metal mount. Opened his hand up something nasty. He bled like a stuck pig.

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## Beavis

At least we aren't in the sorry state the Germans are at the moment.

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## Ryan

> At least we aren't in the sorry state the Germans are at the moment.


I guess the silver lining is that they found about the G36's shortcomings now rather than in large scale conflict.

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## Sasquatch

Isn't a civilian Steyer quite abit different from a Mil-spec one? Op rod and bolt in particular are different I think. So the now mil-surps couldn't be bought on E (if 'they' allow that to happen), would be classed as C because of the select fire.

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## Ryan

> Isn't a civilian Steyer quite abit different from a Mil-spec one? Op rod and bolt in particular are different I think. So the now mil-surps couldn't be bought on E (if 'they' allow that to happen), would be classed as C because of the select fire.


I'm up for correction here but my understanding is that select-fire weapons that are _imported_ have to be rendered as semi-auto prior to their arrival in NZ in order to be registered as E category? Have no idea what the rationale would be re local Steyrs.

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## Tankd

I think people need to back the bus up a little . All that has happened is that Bullsh@t Castle has said is that "We liked playing with a rifle ".
          There is nothing to say that they will get what they "want ". In the end they will accept what they are given and the Politicians will decide not the Mandarins of Bullsh@t Castle . The Aussies will be very unhappy of a different choice from them no matter what we think . Remember MonKey boy preferred a Softball game over a Funeral .

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## Ryan

> I think people need to back the bus up a little . All that has happened is that Bullsh@t Castle has said is that "We liked playing with a rifle ".
>           There is nothing to say that they will get what they "want ". In the end they will accept what they are given and the Politicians will decide not the Mandarins of Bullsh@t Castle . The Aussies will be very unhappy of a different choice from them no matter what we think . Remember MonKey boy preferred a Softball game over a Funeral .


I don't think the Aussies would care what rifle we had as long as it fires 5.56x45mm.

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## R93

> why is it our SAS get issued better kit and weapons as in the Ar15 than our regulars? who have over the decades always had to either swap or steal better equipment from our allies in conflicts. Surely there wouldn't be that much difference in price?


We used to joke about their lack of a budget. I think their role dictates state of the art gear and having it up-gradable. They are also only around 100 strong so compared to equipping the rest of the Army I spose it is cheapish. They smash the budget in other areas.

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## Koshogi

> Meh, things went downhill after these were upgraded.
> 
> Attachment 39816


Flash bugger.

I had to yell "stick, stick".

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## Barefoot

> Meh, things went downhill after these were upgraded.
> 
> Attachment 39816


Pfffft If you waited 20yrs they would have upgraded you to the one with the pointy end  :Grin:

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## Daggers_187

> why is it our SAS get issued better kit and weapons as in the Ar15 than our regulars? who have over the decades always had to either swap or steal better equipment from our allies in conflicts. Surely there wouldn't be that much difference in price?


SAS get issued equipment in line with their international counterparts. Interoperability or something like that.  :Wink:

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## Tankd

> I don't think the Aussies would care what rifle we had as long as it fires 5.56x45mm.


 Obviously you do not understand just how things work .This is as much a political decision as a millitary one

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## Shooter

> Obviously you do not understand just how things work .This is as much a political decision as a millitary one


Unfortunately I think it is you who does not fully understand how things work fully. There is no "conspiracys" involved.  The current weapon is coming to the end of its life and there has been a trial and LMT is the winner. Job done. That's it.

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## 300CALMAN

> Flash bugger.
> 
> I had to yell "stick, stick".
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


No Koshogi you would be yelling HIT HIT HIT other wise it would be like yelling RIFLE RIFLE RIFLE (silly aye!) not BANG BANG BANG or BULLETS BULLETS BULLETS! NAH never had to do that  :ORLY:

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## Beaker

Bit of a pissed post, but, sas (as only being small force and also unique in what they do) should get what ever they need. And lets face it, the general person will not know the true cost for these people - and i dont think they need to. We dont live in a third world nation and the people that run the country arent that bad, so give them the benefit of trying to safe guard these guys that do things that the norm dont need to know about.
General force, army navy air etc., need to have a somewhat balanced approached to gear. That Hopefully doesnt sound too bad, and i do think the people on the pointy end need the best, but $ do come in at some point. 
If there is any mention of back handers for deals, PROVE and expose.

And i dont think we spend enough on the military

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## res

> And i dont think we spend enough on the military


+1

There are a lot of others areas that could do with more $ as well, just getting the extra $ is the hard part as every current govt expense would be hard or ill advised to reduce. 
I'm actually surprised the current govt haven't come down harder on mil spending as they have been very hard on other departments,with mixed outcomes.

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## wsm junkie

> No Koshogi you would be yelling HIT HIT HIT other wise it would be like yelling RIFLE RIFLE RIFLE (silly aye!) not BANG BANG BANG or BULLETS BULLETS BULLETS! NAH never had to do that


Imagine how section gunners felt, having to yell 3-5 round burst, 3-5 round burst and then getting mocked by your 2ic that you weren't yelling loud enough to keep the enemies heads down while the rest of your section did a flanking attack on their position 350m away in pouring rain and howling gale - Oh you gotta love budget cuts eh :XD:

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## kotuku

illjust stick with the SLRgents .heavy yeah but if something got hit it stayed hit and also a 10 lb rifle makes a mighty fine bloody shin scraper! ore spine readjuster (oops did i say that) and i stillremebers me TF basic at burnham.very impressionable raw recruits see 4 grizzled RFsgts operating on a stumpwith SLRS. end of volley-our sgt "go have a look and t
ell me what you learned
Its a very powerful bullet sgt 
No son ,the correct answer is soldiers dont hide behind bloody trees-thats why god gave ya feet to keep your arse off the ground moving and keep you alive so the army can teach you to shoot back!
 had he not been in the military hed have made a topnotch stand up comedian.
 The M16-most outstanding feat I saw was it used as a chainsaw to chop a tree in half. 1x30rd mag +1/2 a mag. the plt commander concerned actually had a rather memorable conversation with the CO over that stunt
 i got out in 1991as the steyr was comin into general service and i was always told we got it because lithgow small arms in aussie tooled up to manufacture it etc etc and the anzac relationship.as a mere TF sgt I accepted the 
"official line -it seemed the simplest option and really who  knows how a bloody politicians mind works anyhow at the end of the day!

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## Shooter

> +1
> 
> There are a lot of others areas that could do with more $ as well, just getting the extra $ is the hard part as every current govt expense would be hard or ill advised to reduce. 
> I'm actually surprised the current govt haven't come down harder on mil spending as they have been very hard on other departments,with mixed outcomes.


Forced to save $400 Million by this year and with the redunacy of 300+ soldiers, airman and sailers I would think that would consitute "coming down hard" on military spending.  It is all relitive and if you don't see it then you may not realise how tight the purse strings really are.

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## Tankd

> Unfortunately I think it is you who does not fully understand how things work fully. There is no "conspiracys" involved.  The current weapon is coming to the end of its life and there has been a trial and LMT is the winner. Job done. That's it.


   Last time at the end on the Trials ,they said to the Government of the day "We want the Canadian C7/9 " . The Government said back "No you don't you want the Aussie Styer " and guess what we got ????.

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## 300CALMAN

> Last time at the end on the Trials ,they said to the Government of the day "We want the Canadian C7/9 " . The Government said back "No you don't you want the Aussie Styer " and guess what we got ????.


Yeh no conspiracy there.. just shity politics.

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## timattalon

> illjust stick with the SLRgents .heavy yeah but if something got hit it stayed hit and also a 10 lb rifle makes a mighty fine bloody shin scraper! ore spine readjuster (oops did i say that) and i stillremebers me TF basic at burnham.very impressionable raw recruits see 4 grizzled RFsgts operating on a stumpwith SLRS. end of volley-our sgt "go have a look and t
> ell me what you learned
> Its a very powerful bullet sgt 
> No son ,the correct answer is soldiers dont hide behind bloody trees-thats why god gave ya feet to keep your arse off the ground moving and keep you alive so the army can teach you to shoot back!
>  had he not been in the military hed have made a topnotch stand up comedian.
>  The M16-most outstanding feat I saw was it used as a chainsaw to chop a tree in half. 1x30rd mag +1/2 a mag. the plt commander concerned actually had a rather memorable conversation with the CO over that stunt
>  i got out in 1991as the steyr was comin into general service and i was always told we got it because lithgow small arms in aussie tooled up to manufacture it etc etc and the anzac relationship.as a mere TF sgt I accepted the 
> "official line -it seemed the simplest option and really *who  knows how a bloody politicians mind works anyhow at the end of the day*!


You are making the presumption that their mind works to start with.....?

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## timattalon

As for Budget cuts. they have XXXX Billion $$ to spend. SOme goes here, some goes there and some goes somewhere else. If you want more spent on the military (and I  am NOT saying it is not justifiable) then it has to come from somewhere else. Do you take it from:
Healthcare ( also needs more money), or 
Welfare (also needs more money),  or
Police and law and order (also needs more money), or
Education(also needs more money), or 
DoC (also needs more money), or 
the higher taxes and get it from the taxpayer (also needs more money) ....?  

Hang on, I think I see a pattern forming here....

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## Sidney

Nah what you do is just give everyone more money (except the taxpayer) and don't worry about where it comes from....  or in other words be a green party economics spokesman... or a labour party finance spokesman in opposition...  (at least they shape up a little when they have to be responsible)   :Grin:

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## 260rem

They had them in the past

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## jackson21

I used to get on the piss a bit with a retired Colonel who had a fair bit to do with the Steyr trial, R93 probably knows him. He got himself in a bit of strife later in life but was quite a good dude. I remember asking him about Steyr selection once and sorry to quell all the conspiracy/butter theories but vaguely(as was quite chopped @Cowboys Bar) remember him saying it tested far better than the other options available at the time. The AR's we get now are possibly made a bit better than the ones 20 odd years ago provided to be making fair comparisons with, as have tested up tops this time and as a result they have selected them.
Many grunts back then may have also had personnel preferences to AR'S like if everyone on here were told this is the one rifle you can buy to go hunting many would be pissed off.

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## specweapon

I hope they fit them with some Eotech's from Aliexpress to keep the costs down.

Also I remember years ago a few Airforce guys from Woodbourne turned up at the Blenheim Gun club with a couple of Steyrs and a carton of ammo, full auto'd them till they were glowing, from memory they ruined one and I heard they got in a world of trouble

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## R93

> I used to get on the piss a bit with a retired Colonel who had a fair bit to do with the Steyr trial, R93 probably knows him. He got himself in a bit of strife later in life but was quite a good dude. I remember asking him about Steyr selection once and sorry to quell all the conspiracy/butter theories but vaguely(as was quite chopped @Cowboys Bar) remember him saying it tested far better than the other options available at the time. The AR's we get now are possibly made a bit better than the ones 20 odd years ago provided to be making fair comparisons with, as have tested up tops this time and as a result they have selected them.
> Many grunts back then may have also had personnel preferences to AR'S like if everyone on here were told this is the one rifle you can buy to go hunting many would be pissed off.


If his first name begins with a G and last with a B then yeah I know him.
He was our shooting team coach for a number of years. And prevalent on a few weapon trials.
And he is lying thru his teeth😆

The A2 trialed the top in everything except accuracy and that would be due to the sights. To be fair tho, we were just the grunts and the end user. We didn't have to think about economics and such. We just said what we liked and why. There was set criteria we were familiar with and had to rate performance according to it

The AUG was defiantly a favorite and up there but we were surprised it was selected.

The sniper rifle trial in 90-91 was also a surprise selection as the M24 variant was the most popular with the users.
The AW although accurate was far to heavy and cumbersome for the intended role.
Most blokes shot a modified Hawkins style and it was achievable with great results with most other rifles on trial.
The AW raised your profile too much and a lot of blokes struggled with it when first in service. I hated the thing and especially the optics being fixed 10x. Vari powers were not known for reliability back then.
I still hate the system and hope they come to their senses and go to a more user friendly system in the future.
The AW would suit static positions on roof tops and rubble loopholes but carrying around in the green role it is poos.

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## Friwi

R93,I completely share your view regarding the AW.
The fashion is to things standing higher and higher, with scopes to fare up the bore axis that canting error are more likely to occur.
Carlos Hathcock would be spinning in his grave if he was seeing that!

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## R93

> R93,I completely share your view regarding the AW.
> The fashion is to things standing higher and higher, with scopes to fare up the bore axis that canting error are more likely to occur.
> Carlos Hathcock would be spinning in his grave if he was seeing that!


White Feather wouldn't give a fuck. His Military uses sensible gear. Ours on the other hand.
 It is all just personal opinion but pretty much shared from what I remember by most of my era of grunts. FNG's and pogues, especially pogues wouldn't know any different as they have not used or trained with anything else. Limiting their knowledge and experience.

The role of the infantry is to seek out and close with the enemy, to kill or capture him, to seize and to hold ground and to repel attack, by night and day, regardless of season, weather or terrain.

The role will never change. They just need sensible gear to achieve it. :Thumbsup:

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## jackson21

R93, to be fair, that is more correct what he told me, it was the accuracy tests the AUG topped and was why they chose it. Think he also mumbled something about was it Austrian Steyrs for tests but later supplied with Aussie built ones which weren't as good? Welcome to correct me here R93 also as was sometime ago and heavily on the diesels....

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## jackson21

Funny that about the Sniper rifles, I often think....fuck imagine trying to lug some of those heavy sniper contraptions around with all your other shit through bush with massive scopes on top, not like you're cruising around on a quad!

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## Savage1

> I used to get on the piss a bit with a retired Colonel who had a fair bit to do with the Steyr trial, R93 probably knows him. He got himself in a bit of strife later in life but was quite a good dude. I remember asking him about Steyr selection once and sorry to quell all the conspiracy/butter theories but vaguely(as was quite chopped @Cowboys Bar) remember him saying it tested far better than the other options available at the time. The AR's we get now are possibly made a bit better than the ones 20 odd years ago provided to be making fair comparisons with, as have tested up tops this time and as a result they have selected them.
> Many grunts back then may have also had personnel preferences to AR'S like if everyone on here were told this is the one rifle you can buy to go hunting many would be pissed off.


I know a retired Captain that participated in the AUG trial, @R93 will know him, first and last name start with a T and is a Vietnam Vet. 

He said the A2 won hands down and they were pissed when the AUG got chosen. He said it was pointless as they'd already made up their mind.

----------


## R93

> R93, to be fair, that is more correct what he told me, it was the accuracy tests the AUG topped and was why they chose it. Think he also mumbled something about was it Austrian Steyrs for tests but later supplied with Aussie built ones which weren't as good? Welcome to correct me here R93 also as was sometime ago and heavily on the diesels....


I think the Aussie ones had a problem with the mold for the stocks which was sorted rather quickly iirc. Few other minor issues they also sorted over time.
Dunno why they chose the reticle they used compared to ours. It was a weird decision imo. 
I managed to pass their AWQ using it when I was attached to one of their battalions for a while. Was difficult when you had to hold a fig 11 target central as best you could inside a large circle at 300😆

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## ZG47

> I think the Aussie ones had a problem with the mold for the stocks which was sorted rather quickly iirc. Few other minor issues they also sorted over time.
> Dunno why they chose the reticle they used compared to ours. It was a weird decision imo. 
> I managed to pass their AWQ using it when I was attached to one of their battalions for a while. Was difficult when you had to hold a fig 11 target central as best you could inside a large circle at 300
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


R93

As I recall, that was the Austrian Army reticle in the Austrian video that they showed us when we got our Austrian Steyrs,which were later swapped out for Aussie rifles (during another pointless reorganisation). Still not a good reason to choose it BUT ... what can you expect from people who get their gravy in red bottles labelled tomato sauce?  :Grin:

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## R93

Don't know who's reticle it was but ours was at least usable.
Still we never managed to be the Aussie service rifle team using it when I shot against them.
We have beaten them since a few times but.
They were caught out fudging results at times. But still won major events.

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## foxhound

Switching from the SLR and M16 to Steyr did improve shooters scores with the optic and the steyr was very accurate. Made the falling plate shoot a breeze. Personally I preferred the SLR and the M16. It did make us wonder why the Group still carried M16s around Papakura when the rest of us had Steyrs. Remember seeing the the odd long barrelled steyr with a bipod in the Armoury as well.

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## dansus

Bit more info  here

New Zealand selects LMT rifle for Steyr replacement - IHS Jane's 360

IHS Jane's understands that LMT offered CQB16 variants with 406 mm and 457 mm barrels for testing

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## res

Just had a look at that model on lmt's site, no way to mount a bayonet? Not needed anymore? Or just a addon part?

Not that I know much about such things but I would have thought the physiological impact would have still been useful for crowd control etc

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## Shooter

> Just had a look at that model on lmt's site, no way to mount a bayonet? Not needed anymore? Or just a addon part?
> 
> Not that I know much about such things but I would have thought the physiological impact would have still been useful for crowd control etc


All weapons trialled were able to be fitted with the the current issue M7 Bayonet.  As for there need/relevance these days, that is another debate altogether...

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## Shooter

The LMT had a bayonet attachment that was very similar to the current one on the standard size Steyr within NZDF, it is a add on as such.  The bayonet boss was also at 90 degrees to its normal position that most are used to as the M203 is interchangeable between weapons rather than having dedicated "grenadier" weapons of today.

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## res

That makes sense

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## timattalon

> Just had a look at that model on lmt's site, no way to mount a bayonet? Not needed anymore? Or just a addon part?
> 
> Not that I know much about such things but I would have thought the physiological impact would have still been useful for crowd control etc


I suspect it is supposed to read "_but I would have thought the psychological impact would have still been useful for crowd control etc_"  A visible deterrent that has a effect of "scaring" them to behave.....All bayonets have a physiological impact. They leave a bleeding hole the same shape as the blade in the person when stabbed. 

I also suspect you appreciate a good spell check program that thinks it knows what you mean....Mine is the same. I have to keep correcting my spell check. (On a side note I went to type Butter as in "Can you grab some butter on the way home". Spell check decided I wanted a pound of buttf__k from the supermarket....)

----------


## res

You would be right on all counts, but with the addition of predictive text-and that's probably the biggest culprit of all for me

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## Ryan

> All weapons trialled were able to be fitted with the the current issue M7 Bayonet.  As for there need/relevance these days, that is another debate altogether...


 @Shooter Looking at several British soldiers' CQB experience in Afghanistan, I'd advocate retaining bayonets.

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## Shooter

> @Shooter Looking at several British soldiers' CQB experience in Afghanistan, I'd advocate retaining bayonets.


I am a true believer in retaining our beloved weapon of the bayonet too @Ryan.  Unfortunately it is not a view that is expressed by all within the NZDF.  Like a few have alluded to above the bayonet is not just a "On guard, Parrie, In, Out, On guard" tool but the removal of such a "Last resort" weapon can have massive second and third order effect further on down the track be it the ability to show force in a crowd control type situation...

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## R93

Ya need bayonets for drill. 
They are a must have😆



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## jackson21

@R93, if compatibility issues, fact this would never happen and also putting aside platforms for now. 

With your experience military and firearms would we be possibly better off using a 6.5 to 7mm type of cartridge rifles/machine guns like poms wanted to go to years ago? Make everyone pretty much a designated marksman and use the 5.56 more in roles like 9mm and 45 cal submachine guns used in units?
Just curious?

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## dansus

or could go Dutch SF and get 300 BLK Carbines,

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## 300CALMAN

> or could go Dutch SF and get 300 BLK Carbines,


now that would be something.

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## R93

Unfortunately not everyone in the Army is capable of being a dedicated marksman.
I shot in every competition I could during my career because I enjoyed it and it got you out of some dull boring everyday stuff and away from the battlion.
Rugby was another bug bear to Plt commanders and the like😆

It was also the only time due to cost, the Army put anything into shooting apart from the yearly AWQ that everyone had to do.
Shooting used to be a hi priority when I first joined and before I left some years later training and time doing it was very limited.

Pretty much the same faces were present every year in most of those competitions. 

A mere handful compared to the potential selection base of shooters.

I do not have an opinion on what caliber should be used unless it is role specific.
5.56 is adequate for its general role imo.
Changing caliber for individual weapons would have to be done elsewhere in the world for us to consider it.

The first priority in any contact is to try and gain fire superiority. Win the initial fire fight. 
Deliberate shooting has no use or place in the first instance. 
Rounds in volume on the ground do. 
Therefore the amount of a munitions a soldier can carry has to be considered. Not only does he carry for himself but he will likely be carrying ammo and mines for other assetts.
I believe first line ammo is still 280 rounds and 2 grenades minimum so a change to a larger caliber would increase weight or reduce amount carried, so which ever way you look at it there would be substantial changes needed and quite frankly above any pay grade I would have made had I stayed in longer.


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## Shooter

> Unfortunately not everyone in the Army is capable of being a dedicated marksman.
> I shot in every competition I could during my career because I enjoyed it and it got you out of some dull boring everyday stuff and away from the battlion.
> Rugby was another bug bear to Plt commanders and the like
> 
> It was also the only time due to cost, the Army put anything into shooting apart from the yearly AWQ that everyone had to do.
> Shooting used to be a hi priority when I first joined and before I left some years later training and time doing it was very limited.
> 
> Pretty much the same faces were present every year in most of those competitions. 
> 
> ...


Yep still at 280 rounds but given the typical combat load is 2xfront line you can see how the weight builds up. The DMW on the other hand has a first line of 140 rounds which as a designated marksman is fine but as we know any member within the section must be capable of assaulting just like the other rifleman so they end up caring a min of 2 frontline, which you can imagine gets rather heavy very quickly.

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## 300CALMAN

> Yep still at 280 rounds but given the typical combat load is 2xfront line you can see how the weight builds up. The DMW on the other hand has a first line of 140 rounds which as a designated marksman is fine but as we know any member within the section must be capable of assaulting just like the other rifleman so they end up caring a min of 2 frontline, which you can imagine gets rather heavy very quickly.


lets not forget the poor bugger who also carries macine gun belts and 40mm rounds and oh yes the radio. :X X:

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## 300CALMAN

:Oh Noes:  those 40mm are flaming heavy.

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## grunzter

...those PRC77's were flaming heavy... with a spare battery as well...

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## Shooter

The radios today are far lighter than the 77 set that's for sure. Front line for the gun is 800rounds so once again 2xfrontline brings in a lot of weight, although this canbe distributed across the section.  All in all the 5.56 is the best of both worlds, like R93 said the aim of the initial contact is to win the firefight thus gaining the initiative/upper hand over the enemy allowing you to launch an assualt. So the more rounds you have the longer you can sustain a high rate of fire.

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## Shooter

It pretty quickly becomes apparent that light infantry is anything but light!

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## Woody

An interesting thread. Enjoying it.

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## dansus

Apparently the NZ Army uses, or is planning on using, heavy 77 grain 5.56mm ammunition

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## res

Have also heard that, probably a sensible change given that they are losing 4" of barrel. And the military 77gn stuff is moving impressively fast out of those short tubes-the same as the max I can get handloading for a 22" tube

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## 300CALMAN

> Have also heard that, probably a sensible change given that they are losing 4" of barrel. And the military 77gn stuff is moving impressively fast out of those short tubes-the same as the max I can get handloading for a 22" tube


I had a lot of problems getting velocity from 77grain projectiles and a 18" barrel. Wounder what the secret is?

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## res

I would guess a blended powder mix

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## stumpy

I have heard around the traps , that each one will come with a suppressor , as they are a tad loud .....

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## ChrisF

What is the story with the calibre ? , is this in 5.56 or 7.62mm , and why did the Scar do so poorly ? 

And as far as recent small arms buys by the Army , I think buying the LSW in 7.62mm was stupid , if you want a 7.62mm LMG , buy a real one , like the GPMG/MAG58 .

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## R93

OMG. Really?
I would have thought the term LMG was obvious.




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## ChrisF

Yes really , I donot care what you call it or the Army call it  , its a belt fed full auto machine gun , a  C9 in 7.62 or the MAG58 , I now which I would pick by a country mile , and its not the C9/Minimi , YES really .

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## stumpy

I think he meant as in LIGHT machine gun .... cause the gpmg is a heavy hua ...

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## R93

> Yes really , I donot care what you call it or the Army call it  , its a belt fed full auto machine gun , a  C9 in 7.62 or the MAG58 , I now which I would pick by a country mile , and its not the C9/Minimi , YES really .


Maybe try stomping or jumping with one?

But seriously. Unless you have experience with both platforms, what you would pick is a bit like........





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## 300CALMAN

_"I think buying the LSW in 7.62mm was stupid , if you want a 7.62mm LMG , buy a real one , like the GPMG/MAG58"_ FAAAA you must be big. Section maneuvers with an FN-MAG is not fun, 11.79 kg vs 8.17 kg for the 7.62 minimi. No question for SFMG role or off a vehicle I want the MAG but otherwise...

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## R93

Other considerations of an LMG/LSW is its role. The C9 can be mag fed with any AR type magazine. Very handy if you run out or cannot access your supply of link, when in the shit. The Belgian GPMG is a great bit of kit but its weight and cyclic rate suit DFSW, static and co-ax applications. (There are Para and lighter versions used by other forces around the world at section and det level)
In saying that. We used to have to carry it and the Bren around until the C9 come into service. It payed to have a 6' 4" 105 kilo brut in your section. He was always the gunner no matter how good he was at other stuff :Grin:

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## stumpy

I liked carrying the c9 ...... helped my street cred .... so young and so serious

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## sneeze

> Other considerations of an LMG/LSW is its role. The C9 can be mag fed with any AR type magazine. Very handy if you run out or cannot access your supply of link, when in the shit. The Belgian GPMG is a great bit of kit but its weight and cyclic rate suit DFSW, static and co-ax applications. (There are Para and lighter versions used by other forces around the world at section and det level)
> In saying that. We used to have to carry it and the Bren around until the C9 come into service. It payed to have a 6' 4" 105 kilo brut in your section. He was always the gunner no matter how good he was at other stuff




Would have to be  the thread with the  most initialisms  by a CM

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## R93

😆 sorry.

LSW=light support weapon 
LMG=light machine gun
GPMG=general purpose MG
DFSW= Direct fire support weapon. (Sustained fire from a fixed mount for the gpmg)
Co-ax= co-axiel machine gun used to range a larger main weapon and or strafe. Tanks, APC etc.
Used to be called the LG43 iirc when mounted in a Scorpion or M113 APC



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## 300CALMAN

SFMG=Sustained fire machine gun ie capable of maintaining a high rate of fire over a long time period.

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## stumpy

did sustained fire for the Gurkhas when they had their morter team over using tracer to id the targets .... the link and brass kept my fingers warm between shots ....

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## 300CALMAN

Yeah I always wondered how much "Sustained Fire" the C9 could take after heating up both barrels on 400 rounds and the first one still being toasty hot while we swapped it back. No question though I thought they filled the squad role very well.

Apparently the one of the best SFMGs was the Vikers which due to the water cooling could keep up neer continous fire for hours on end. Not exactly portable though.

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## R93

There is a Vickers in the Army museum that is said to have fired almost one million rounds in one week during the battle for the Somme.

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## Beaker

Had a go on a russian m1910 maxim(great fun, prob 100 rounds), a couple of years ago. Still using the canvas belt etc.... What a testiment to good old engineering, but be buggered if you'd want to be on the team to move it around! (i make toby look fat, just to give a idea on my carry abliity  :Have A Nice Day:  ) 

As a side, i would have thought that any firearm/ weapon that you could grab anyone elses ammo and continue firing would be a advantage? Ie magazine and belt feed?

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## stumpy

this was using the gymp ....not the c9 , I think if I remember I had to change barrels on the c9 every 250 rounds ,   only carried two with me ....





> did sustained fire for the Gurkhas when they had their morter team over using tracer to id the targets .... the link and brass kept my fingers warm between shots ....

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## Shooter

> As a side, i would have thought that any firearm/ weapon that you could grab anyone elses ammo and continue firing would be a advantage? Ie magazine and belt feed?


Unfortunately the new LSW (7.62) does not have the same functionality but given that the only same caliber weapon with a mag is the DMW, it would have been a wasted feature anyway.

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## Shooter

Check it out, you will see the advantages for weapon carriage and ease of use for the dismounted soldier.  The GPMG (or now the commonly used Mag 58) is undoubtedly the best SFMG weapon that we have and still have, but for a soldier that has to use it in the light role and shoot it from all position then this weapon gives you the same knocking down power with the benefit of a ergonomic friendly platform.

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## grunzter

That's cool.
...It would be fun to pick up a M249 (C9) for service rifle, especially for the 'rapid' match...  :Psmiley:

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## stumpy

SEMI AUTO BELT FED C9 IS IN THE STATES FOR CIVVIE SALE ...whoops had the caps lock on , too lazy to fix it ......

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## stretch

Word on the street is that the new LSWs have been pulled from service due to a wee problem with rounds exploding in the breech.

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## Shooter

> Word on the street is that the new LSWs have been pulled from service due to a wee problem with rounds exploding in the breech.


That is the word yes, but I think you will find it also had alot to do with user error and a general lack of education with the enhanced platform.  Time will tell...

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## 300CALMAN

> Unfortunately the new LSW (7.62) does not have the same functionality but given that the only same caliber weapon with a mag is the DMW, it would have been a wasted feature anyway.


Unfortunately the Steyrs didn't use AR mags so the functionality was wasted. Now when a 5.56 - C9 gunner yells "Mags To The Gunner" everyone can throw their mags AT the gun  :Ouch...it Hurts:  hopefully without doing damage, yet another reason to use ARs.

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## StrikerNZ

Floating around near Tekapo yesterday and could hear the effects of the live fire exercise from a fair distance.. couple of big boomers from time to time, with plenty of small arms burst fire mixed in. Sounded like 3-rnd bursts.

Moderately off topic for this thread, but it's close enough  :Thumbsup:

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## Shooter

> Unfortunately the Steyrs didn't use AR mags so the functionality was wasted. Now when a 5.56 - C9 gunner yells "Mags To The Gunner" everyone can throw their mags AT the gun  hopefully without doing damage, yet another reason to use ARs.


But the C9 is no longer in service within the NZDF.  The LSW replaced it some time ago.

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## Beavis

LSW was shitting a hydraulic buffer out the back according to a friend who uses one for his day job.

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## 300CALMAN

> But the C9 is no longer in service within the NZDF.  The LSW replaced it some time ago.


OK i thought that it was still being phased out, it usual takes a few years for the Reserves to get the latest issue.

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## 7.62

Question for the AR experts: if money was no object, which option would you have gone with? No surprise that they went with LMT, they already supply the marksman rifle and have a very good rep. I guess there's bugger all difference between the tier 1 ARs, all high quality and built to the same spec

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## res

Even with $ as no object I feel that lmt would still be a top contender

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## Shooter

And here it is...

New rifles for Defence Force | Scoop News

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## Kscott



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## Uplandstalker

I hear the Sig is getting dropped too for the Glock  :Sad:

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## Shooter

> I hear the Sig is getting dropped too for the Glock


The Sig is well past it's service life that's for sure! Good move I say, the glock preformed bloody well during the trials.

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## Uplandstalker

Yeah, they are a heap easier to operator compared to the Sig. Keep fresh springs handy and clean it(like any pistol), and the Glock we be fine.

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## MassiveAttack

Good to see NZDF followed my fashion trend and brought ARs.  I wonder if they will get carbon fiber stocks like I did.

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## 300CALMAN

Not sure about swapping SIGs for GLOCKs, do they all have horrible triggers or is it only the NZ Police ones. The AR15 is definitely a good move.

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## Jexla

Glock is the most sensible option any police force / military could ever make.

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## res

> Not sure about swapping SIGs for GLOCKs, do they all have horrible triggers or is it only the NZ Police ones. The AR15 is definitely a good move.


I believe the police ones have the extra heavy "new York" triggers fitted. Not that a standard glock trigger is good anyway 

I can't fault the choice of glock, even though they are far from my favourite pistol to shoot

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## 300CALMAN

Yes I preferred the SIG but then I liked the CZ75 that I tried even more. The truth is I haven't had a much pistol experience outside my air pistol  :Grin:  but I didn't like the feel of the Glock much. I suppose their super reliable and simple which would make them a top choice as a side arm.

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## R93

If you have to use a pistol as a grunt you're in severe shit generally.
I'm guessing it is a weight and servicing issue as much as anything where front line servicemen are concerned.

Certain branches of the army heavily rely on pistols and short weapons. They will have a huge influence on the decision as well.

When we went to the P226 they hated it and wanted to keep the L9 browning. Some of the slides were that sloppy on the browning they appeared to have a 45° cant when looking thru the sights.😆
Yet it didn't seem to bother the operators who were well trained with them.

Not a fan of anything glock myself but if the trial was as good as the trial I attended they are obviously the best choice. 
Glock seems to have moved with the times in terms of development but for some reason Sig has not.





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## Shooter

Not a bad article in the latest Army News (page 4 and 5) on the new pistol and Individual weapon...

http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/arm...rmynews469.pdf

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## R93

> Not a bad article in the latest Army News (page 4 and 5) on the new pistol and Individual weapon...
> 
> http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/arm...rmynews469.pdf


A few familiar faces in that issue.
Some dumb asses should know when it's time to leave. I would have 32 yrs if I was still serving. Stuff that😆
Didn't know they went for the Gen 4.....Yuck.

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## Ryan



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## jackson21

Good on them for going with the 77gr projectiles and not just being sheep. Very accurate in a 1/7 twist. Sux grunts get at shitty old retractable that bumps out of position all the time though!

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## 199p

Looks like a gun worth joining the army for haha

Whats the yellow think for removing the flash hider?

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## Friwi

Some kind of blank firing muzzle device.

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## jackson21

Now just need the Navy to start buying decent gear on aquisition programs......nah that will never happen

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## Shooter

> Looks like a gun worth joining the army for haha
> 
> Whats the yellow think for removing the flash hider?


Yep, like Friwi said. It is a BFA (blank firing attachment) so that the weapon functions like live with blank ammunition.

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## Shooter

> Now just need the Navy to start buying decent gear on aquisition programs......nah that will never happen


This weapon is for all three services... not just Army.

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## stumpy

that BFA is huge , at least the steyrs one was small and less obnoxious .....

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## Shooter

> that BFA is huge , at least the steyrs one was small and less obnoxious .....


You should see the Aussie one then!

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## jackson21

> This weapon is for all three services... not just Army.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk


_Was referring to Navy's vessel purchases_

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## 300CALMAN

Blank Firing Attachment BFA  :Grin: 

77grain SMKs are awesome (for a 223). My NEA could shoot consistent 15mm groups with them.

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## foxhound

> Blank Firing Attachment BFA 
> 
> 77grain SMKs are awesome (for a 223). My NEA could shoot consistent 15mm groups with them.


Havnt tried those in my NEA it shoots the 60g hornady soft point very well and they are cheap too, Whats the drop like on the 77 grain and powder weight, im running 24.5 grains with the hornadys.

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## Dead is better

> You should see the Aussie one then!


? They were just a 2"threaded rod with small cap that just covered the end of the flash suppressor  (painted red) back in the mid 90's. Did it change?

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## 300CALMAN

Cant remember exactly.. they were slow with ADI powder though. Think it might have been AR2208 getting around 2550 from the 18 inch barrel. I am sure you can soup that up (don't take my word for it and hurt yourself though).

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## Dead is better

This is what the new rifle will need to do. Who needs a gay looking BFA when yo gat looks vagazzled like this?

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## Dead is better

A mate of mine re-enlisted to prove a point that 38yr olds can still put boot to arse. He's back at 6RAR QLD again, 20 years after we marched out for the last time.

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## 300CALMAN

> Attachment 52169 This is what the new rifle will need to do. Who needs a gay looking BFA when yo gat looks vagazzled like this?


  @Dead is better have you been visiting some sort of gay military interest site?  :Wtfsmilie: 

So that must be the new Steyr. I can see why we chose the AR15.

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## Dead is better

Their new steyrs don't look too bad but apparently the triggers are just as bad as I remember. Hope the cocking handles don't snap off anymore

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## Shooter

> ? They were just a 2"threaded rod with small cap that just covered the end of the flash suppressor  (painted red) back in the mid 90's. Did it change?


The top one... they started using them a few years back, the are designed to stop a few live rounds,in the unfortanante event.



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## Shooter

As you can see they add at least another 3in to the weapons overall length. Bottom on is for the gun.

http://www.lithgowarms.com/portfolio-item/bullet-trap/

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## 300CALMAN

> Their new steyrs don't look too bad but apparently the triggers are just as bad as I remember. Hope the cocking handles don't snap off anymore


one of my mates cut his hand open when the cocking handle broke, bled like a stuck pig

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## dansus

I missed this if any wants vid of the new rifle,
not really a fan of stuff but



New $59 million weapons package begins Defence Force rollout | Stuff.co.nz

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## Ryan

Some of the comments on that article are painful.

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## 300CALMAN

Wow an increase in range from 300-600 meters! Unfortunately although they may be trained to shoot a rifle, some soldiers have only the most basic concept of ballistics.

OK so an ACOG IS way better than the old 1.5 Steyr scope but it wont magically double the range of the round. even if combined with 77 grain projectiles. We shot the AUG out to 600 m a couple of times and they still made holes in the targets...

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## Russian 22.

How come they're so expensive at 6.5 grand. Surely the army could get a better price than that.

the civilian price is 2 grand usa dollars. For a bare rifle. 

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## R93

> Wow an increase in range from 300-600 meters! Unfortunately although they may be trained to shoot a rifle, some soldiers have only the most basic concept of ballistics.


You would be surprised what is taught at section level.

Most section commanders have been there and done that.
600 would be section fire capability. Not individual.

A lot of shooting comps within the Army start out to 500.

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## Beaker

> You would be surprised what is taught at section level.
> 
> Most section commanders have been there and done that.
> 600 would be section fire capability. Not individual.
> 
> A lot of shooting comps within the Army start out to 500.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Wasn't the army using front stuffers and black powder, when you and rushy  were in ? 










 :Have A Nice Day:

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## 300CALMAN

> You would be surprised what is taught at section level.
> 
> Most section commanders have been there and done that.
> 600 would be section fire capability. Not individual.
> 
> A lot of shooting comps within the Army start out to 500.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


I would not be surprised what is taught at section level, probably has't changed much. I just learned to shut up and avoid being told to F**** off to OCS  :Grin:

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## R93

> Wasn't the army using front stuffers and black powder, when you and rushy  were in ?


I have seen some BP stuff shot accurately past 600.

Rushy had his ID card and dog tags made of stone. 

I was still serving this century😆

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## Ryan

> How come they're so expensive at 6.5 grand. Surely the army could get a better price than that.
> 
> the civilian price is 2 grand usa dollars. For a bare rifle. 
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk


The cost is not for the bare rifle, there are lot of ancillary costs. Spare parts, optics, RMRs, magazines, training aids / material, cleaning kits, slings etc.

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## R93

> I would not be surprised what is taught at section level, probably has't changed much. I just learned to shut up and avoid being told to F**** off to OCS


I must have been dumb coz I just got told to F off no where in particular 😆

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## 300CALMAN

> I must have been dumb coz I just got told to F off no where in particular 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Well I suspect by the way they said it that was what they relay meant  :Grin: 

I remember one smart arse sergeant telling me OCS was not for me but "Obstinate C*** School" was  :Thumbsup:  To be honest I was surprised he knew the meaning of obstinate..

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## Russian 22.

> The cost is not for the bare rifle, there are lot of ancillary costs. Spare parts, optics, RMRs, magazines, training aids / material, cleaning kits, slings etc.


Fair enough. I thought it was 6.5 grand for the kitted rifle and not all the training etc that comes along with it.

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## 300CALMAN

> Fair enough. I thought it was 6.5 grand for the kitted rifle and not all the training etc that comes along with it.


I would think the "System" comes with a lot of parts and tools also.

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## WallyR

> I would think the "System" comes with a lot of parts and tools also.


I'd also think armourers would need retraining too.
Most of the guys that knew/ had experience with SLR/AR gear retired long ago.
Steyr trained blokes will need to 'catch up' with the new weapons systems.
Spread the cost of this plus back up material as mentioned above and $6.5K per unit seems pretty reasonable, as the manufacturer recoups all his development, material and training costs in the first order.
Any later orders (assuming $6.5K/unit is still the buy price), is bulk profit.
Of course, the procurement boys would be aware of this - wouldn't they?
Bloody hope so, and a drop in price for later purchases.

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## Danger Mouse

> I'd also think armourers would need retraining too.
> Most of the guys that knew/ had experience with SLR/AR gear retired long ago.
> Steyr trained blokes will need to 'catch up' with the new weapons systems.
> Spread the cost of this plus back up material as mentioned above and $6.5K per unit seems pretty reasonable, as the manufacturer recoups all his development, material and training costs in the first order.
> Any later orders (assuming $6.5K/unit is still the buy price), is bulk profit.
> Of course, the procurement boys would be aware of this - wouldn't they?
> Bloody hope so, and a drop in price for later purchases.


It includeds maintenance tools, optics (seen the cost of the acog they are using!) mags, slings, documentation, storage cases, transport, and I think, the UGL as well (underslung grenade launcher). Its actually a reasonable price, and it wasnt the most expensive option on offer during the trials.

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