# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  This question again

## screamO

So I've just had the meeting with the vetting officer for my FAL renewal, which I thing went well all but my security :Wtfsmilie: 
I know this gets talked about on here all the time but cant find exactly what I want when it come to security.

I have a room of "stout construction" in which I store my firearms and also in that room I have a lockable cupboard for my ammo, which I believe is adequate under the arms code?
I have now been told this is not up to standard and HAVE to remove all bolts and store separately (I have no problem with this) and have a chain running through the firearms (I have a problem with this). In my reading of the arms code I can't see where this is a requirement.

A firearm must not be put in any place where a child has ready access to it. Achieved 
Ammunition must be stored separately or the firearm made incapable of firing. If possible, remove the bolt and magazine and lock away separately from the firearm. Achieved
Make sure both the chamber and the magazine are empty. Achieved
For lever, pump or semi-automatic firearms, you may not be able to remove the action. Break-open types can be dismantled. N/A
Trigger-locking devices are recommended for firearms which cannot be taken apart. N/A

Licence holders must take reasonable steps to secure firearms against theft. These steps include:
Locking your firearm away in: A lockable cabinet, container or receptacle of stout construction i.e. strong enough to stop a child or casual opportunist thief getting access. Putting a lock on a cupboard, wardrobe or gun-case is not enough. Achieved
Generally, the cabinet/container must be used for storing firearms only. Achieved
A display cabinet or rack which locks in and immobilises firearms so they can not be fired. N/A
A steel and concrete strong-room.

Unloading and locking your firearm away whenever it is not in use or not under the immediate supervision of a licence holder.
Never leaving your firearm in an unattended vehicle.

So I'm struggling to see where I have gone wrong or am I missing something?

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## res

I can't see that your doing anything wrong, these story's of the inspectors making things up keep coming up. 
What area are you in?
Maybe email Wellington for a final word on it?

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## Pengy

I would print off exactly what you have  posted, and ask your officer very politely, to explain where they see a problem.

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## Shooter

> I would print off exactly what you have  posted, and ask your officer very politely, to explain where they see a problem.


+1

Stand your ground in a polite and professional manor and you will be surprised with their reaction.  It is the same when I get the occasional visit and am told that he has to take a copy of all my weapons serial numbers... I just say polity "no thanks, I keep my own record", there is an awkward pause but we move on.  It just annoys me how many people have been "bullied" in to giving serial numbers or changing security based upon opinion.

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## mikee

Yep have a chat with the local AO rather than the vetter.
Sooner rather than later too. I am not sure how the new AO views thing but the former ones had big "common sense' genes 
My rifles are stored in a safe with bolts in.

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## 10-Ring

From what I read you're saying that instead of a lockable cabinet, container or receptacle you have a room of stout construction? If this is correct, does the room have windows that are secured (barred) against entry, a quality security rated lock on the door or doors which have hinges with pins that can't be removed from the outside? Or, if your room doesn't meet these requirements, is your chain that runs through the trigger guard of your firearms, secured to the building in a secure manner?

Presumably you are referring to "A" category firearms.

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## mikee

> +1
> 
> Stand your ground in a polite and professional manor and you will be surprised with their reaction.  It is the same when I get the occasional visit and am told that he has to take a copy of all my weapons serial numbers... I just say polity "no thanks, I keep my own record", there is an awkward pause but we move on.  It just annoys me how many people have been "bullied" in to giving serial numbers or changing security based upon opinion.


I had this last time too (just this year). I just politly asked for the vetter to get the AO to contact me / or write to me and show me a copy of the legistlation requiring this then I would be happy to comply. Vetter mumbled about it "might be bad look" for my renewal but no one wrote/phoned me and licence was issued

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## 10-Ring

There is no legal requirement to have your "A" category firearm serial numbers recorded. It is however, advantageous to record them yourself for insurance purposes etc.

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## Shooter

> There is no legal requirement to have your "A" category firearm serial numbers recorded.


Your right there, never stops them trying their luck though.

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## Maca49

The AO up here gives an addendum of what he wants with the code when you renew your licence, I did mine at the beginning of last month, my "safe" is an old rolex panel steel cabinet ex IRD! I burnt all the files  :ORLY: bolted to the wall, it has a roller door with one modified locking pin at the bottom, with a good quality tumbler lock. The vetter was more than happy. I sold some ammo on t/me the other day, get a text from the purchaser wanting my full name and address! Said you have my FAL that's all your getting, get the lazy AO to check my details in the computer, AO wouldn't sign the form without me giving a stranger my details. Sale didn't go thru, rang my local AO and told him I wasn't happy, he replied that's the only way I would get it thru, no worries as the other person would be ok because he also had a FAL? All the worry of security and I have to give details of myself and where I live to a stranger, I'll make a point of not going thru with sales if this is the case. Others never ask for my details but the form comes through? Time to tell these buggers they don't make the law, there is a law in place, but seems everyone is scared to upset them?

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## zimmer

> There is no legal requirement to have your "A" category firearm serial numbers recorded. It is however, advantageous to record them yourself for insurance purposes etc.


Correct, they are just trying it on - maybe hidden agenda? Joe Green clarified that issue some time ago, there is no requirement for them to record serial numbers.

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## Savage1

Is your room a strong room? Or is it just an ordinary room with a lock on the door? You seem to have chop and changed the wording to suit.

Just buy a safe and be done with it. I take the security of my firearms seriously, not just as a hurdle to keeping my licence hence buying an E-cat safe when all I need is a crappy chain bolted to the wall.

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## veitnamcam

The way firearms move on this site and others i can see no benifit in the cops recording a cat firearms serial numbers.
So ten years on and twenty owners later is that serial number of any use at all?

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## Wirehunt

No.  Because you only have to sight a licence you don't have to record anything.

Got mine a few months ago.   Vetter looked at the safe made sure it had locks on it and done, no mention of even looking inside.

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## Maca49

> Is your room a strong room? Or is it just an ordinary room with a lock on the door? You seem to have chop and changed the wording to suit.
> 
> Just buy a safe and be done with it. I take the security of my firearms seriously, not just as a hurdle to keeping my licence hence buying an E-cat safe when all I need is a crappy chain bolted to the wall.


The point being there is a law covering it. It seems every AO has his own agenda outside the law, it's a bloody disgrace that the police carry on like this. Makes us all look muppets, I realise the job ain't easy when your dealing with such a diversity of people and it must be a challenge, but at least follow the law!

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## veitnamcam

Exactly maca49

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## CastleRock

Had mine renewed last year I think, vetting officer didn't even open the safes, wasnt required apparently. He offered to take serial nos but he said it wasnt necessary. He was a good bugger I'm not sure if he asked about bolts in rifles but most have their bolts in them depending on which safe they are in.

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## Maca49

I do take the bolts out of my rifles as I have a seperate safe for my ammo as well, mainly for nosy grand kids and wife! :Thumbsup:

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## misha2001

Hi guys. Just my ha'pennys worth. Just been vetted for a renewal as well ( now approved says the nice letter from my AO). 

When the vetter came round, he asked to see my security, so took him to my downstairs garage, pointed to the old steel locker wedged between the wall and my work bench, and told him it was bolted to the floor/ bench/ wall, and had 2 heavy duty padlocks on it.

He then asked where I stored the bolts and ammo, so I took him upstairs, pointed out the kitchen window at one of the sheds, and said, in there, inside locked steel ammo cases.

He didn't ask to unlock the safe, or want to view the ammo storage, just ticked the boxes on the form.

Interestingly, he did ask for 1) list of all my firearms, an 2) if I had the serial numbers. I raised my eyebrows at both questions, but listed the arms, but could not tell him the serials, as I hadn't got round to recording them ( tomorrow's job though). 

I guess there are huge variations between not only vetters, but also AO's. The AO in Upper Hutt seems ok, but the Lower Hutt one can be a bit of a grouch (especially if you are asking him to sign off an S43a form.). Still, maybe I caught him on 3 off days  :Have A Nice Day:

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## MattyP

The vetter I had tried to tell me that my safe wasn't good enough (typical $300ish job). Have to agree that I probably should have got a really good one, but it sure as hell meets the requirements of the law and I told him so. He had to back down and approve it in the end seeing as there are probably thousands of that particular safe that have already been approved. He could just tell I could probably afford better and tried it on.

At some point I will get a solid E-cat one even though I don't "need" it.

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## 10-Ring

> The point being there is a law covering it. It seems every AO has his own agenda outside the law, it's a bloody disgrace that the police carry on like this. Makes us all look muppets, I realise the job ain't easy when your dealing with such a diversity of people and it must be a challenge, but at least follow the law!


The question Savage1 asked is perfectly logical and yet to be answered by the OP. I think you're getting a little dramatic with, "It seems every AO has his own agenda outside the law". Some Arms Officer's may like the idea of recording serial numbers but I've never heard of any that insisted on it. 

Regarding the firearms vettor's interpretation of what is, _"A lockable cabinet, container or receptacle of ‘stout construction’ i.e. strong enough to stop a child or casual opportunist thief getting access"._ This is always going to be open to some interpretation. I would suggest that if anyone's current 'A' cat security has been declined as not having met the requirements and they think that it does, then discuss it in a calm and reasonable manner with the vettor and or their AO. It would make the firearm vettor's job a lot easier if the wording of the law was more specific in this regard such as it is for 'E' and 'B' category security requirements. Would the 'A' category firearms licence holder prefer a more specific and clearly defined law pertaining to this? By that I mean, a requirement for example, gun racks and strong rooms aside, that all 'A' cat gun cabinets or receptacles MUST be constructed of at least 2mm thick mild steel with a door of no less thickness than 3mm mild steel, securely bolted to the wall and the floor etc. This would surely upset the many thousands of 'A' cat FAL holder's who have various wooden and thin walled steel cabinets currently use. Even so, personally, I think the law needs to be more specific on this.

Regarding the sale of firearms and ammunition by mail order, TM etc. This has increased dramatically in recent years and obviously some variation in what is required by your local AO may exist. If you have a difference of opinion with your local AO on this and you're sure that you're right then discuss it in a calm and polite manner. 

The police are there to help you. Overall, they do a fantastic job under often difficult circumstances.

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## Sideshow

Why do they want to record your serial numbers?
Has it come back in that this is now put down on a national data base?
I thought that this went out an age ago around 1985/7 when the life time licences came in before that was changed to the ten year one after the Aramoana tragedy. The reason given by the police at the time was that there data was in such a mess that it was no longer fit for purpose.
They still record them here in the UK. It has it's pros and cons. 
To now try and go back and start up this data base would not in my option be very cost affective.
Judging from some of the posts on here about how long it takes for you to get your FAC. I think that the police have better things to do.
As a side note here in the UK your make caliber serial number of every firearm is recorded on your paper FAC and shotgun cert.
This is a big problem because if you lose it and it falls into the wrong hands they know where you live and what you have.
How's that for a security breach!!!!!!

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## screamO

> From what I read you're saying that instead of a lockable cabinet, container or receptacle you have a room of stout construction? If this is correct, does the room have windows that are secured (barred) against entry, a quality security rated lock on the door or doors which have hinges with pins that can't be removed from the outside? Or, if your room doesn't meet these requirements, is your chain that runs through the trigger guard of your firearms, secured to the building in a secure manner?
> 
> Presumably you are referring to "A" category firearms.


This is regarding A cat only.
Yes I have a room of Stout construction, No windows, security rated lock, hinges that can not be accessed, solid core door.
Not forgetting the code only states: stout construction i.e. strong enough to stop a child or casual opportunist thief getting access.

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## screamO

> Is your room a strong room? Or is it just an ordinary room with a lock on the door? You seem to have chop and changed the wording to suit.
> 
> Just buy a safe and be done with it. I take the security of my firearms seriously, not just as a hurdle to keeping my licence hence buying an E-cat safe when all I need is a crappy chain bolted to the wall.


I don't think I've chopped and changed any wording to suit myself or as you imply not taking my security seriously. I don't need to buy a safe as I already have a room of stout construction which is all that is required.
What is the difference between a strong room and a room of stout construction?

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## 7mmwsm

I know my vetting officer very well. We shoot together at the local pistol club. I enjoy the question on self defence. When he asks "would you use a firearm in self defence" my answer is always "Of course I would and so would you. Anyone who says that if they were in a situation where they could prevent the death of themselves or their family and does not do everything they can to prevent that happening, is not a fit and proper person". There is usually some disscussion on the subject while he hoovers down my coffee and biscuits.
I personally believe that if someone enters your dwelling uninvited, whether it is locked or not, they are not an "opportunist" thief. They went there with intent.
But laws are laws and we must adhere to them. Unfortunately with our laws and justice system, the more money you have, the greyer and more contestable they become.

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## zimmer

Long while since I lived in a house on a farm where a 22 was always at hand and could be grabbed at a moment's notice to deal to possums on the roof etc. Nowadays, even if I desired to self defend with a firearm I would have to get the felons to sit down for a coffee whilst I retrieved a gun, a bolt, ammo all kept in different secure locations throughout my house - maybe a 10 minute exercise. Practically I would be better off grabbing a carving knife out of the kitchen drawer.

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## R93

When asked this question I said it would be unlikely the assailant would allow me to open my safe to retrieve a firearm then grab some ammo from another location.
He thought it was a good answer but I was just thinking it was the one he wanted to hear.

I would do anything to protect my family and friends. 

Property is insured and can be replaced. So if that is all was what I thought they were interested in, I would just leave them to it.



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## Beetroot

> Long while since I lived in a house on a farm where a 22 was always at hand and could be grabbed at a moment's notice to deal to possums on the roof etc. Nowadays, even if I desired to self defend with a firearm I would have to get the felons to sit down for a coffee whilst I retrieved a gun, a bolt, ammo all kept in different secure locations throughout my house - maybe a 10 minute exercise. Practically I would be better off grabbing a carving knife out of the kitchen drawer.


Depends what story you give the police.
If you said you heard a crash and a bang from outside and had been having problems with possums, so you quickly got your rifle to deal with it, but was in fact someone trying to break in, after they tried to attack you you shot them. That is self defense and should be entirely legal, unless that is the police at the time decide to interpret the law differently, because it was a Tuesday.

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## Savage1

19Conditions relating to security precautions
(1)Every firearms licence shall be subject to the following conditions:
(a)the holder shall not put a firearm in such a place that a young child has ready access to it:
(b)the holder, where he or she has both a firearm and ammunition for it in his or her possession, either
(i)shall take reasonable steps to ensure that the ammunition is not stored in such a way that a person who obtains access to the firearm also obtains access to the ammunition; or
(ii)shall ensure that, where the ammunition is stored with the firearm, the firearm is not capable of being discharged:
(c)the holder shall take reasonable steps to ensure that any firearm in the holders possession is secured against theft:
(d)the holder shall, where he or she has possession of a firearm that is
(i)a flare pistol; or
(ii)a humane killer; or
(iii)a stock marking pistol,
keep it in a locked container, except where it is under the holders immediate and personal supervision.
(2)On and after 1 July 1993 the reasonable steps required by subclause (1)(c) shall include
(a)keeping on the holders premises
(i)a lockable cabinet, container, or receptacle of stout construction in which firearms may be stored; or
(ii)a lockable steel and concrete strongroom in which firearms may be stored; or
(iii)a display cabinet or rack in which firearms may be immobilised and locked so that none of them may be fired; and
(b)keeping locked or immobilised and locked in the cabinet, container, receptacle, strongroom, display cabinet, or rack required by paragraph (a) every firearm which is on the holders premises and which is not under immediate and personal supervision of the holder or some other holder of a firearms licence; and
(c)ensuring that no firearm in the holders possession is left in a vehicle that is unattended.




It doesn't say room of stout construction, it says "steel and concrete strongroom". In no part are 'strongroom' and 'stout construction' in the same sentence, hence the 'chopped and changed'.

From what I've seen a strong room needs to have steel door frames and plywood instead of gib. A hoolie bar or a good boot makes quick work of wooden framed doorways.

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## Savage1

> The point being there is a law covering it. It seems every AO has his own agenda outside the law, it's a bloody disgrace that the police carry on like this. Makes us all look muppets, I realise the job ain't easy when your dealing with such a diversity of people and it must be a challenge, but at least follow the law!


The point being is when you actually read the law and go off his description then he most probably isn't complying. He didn't mention his room being steel or concrete?

Actually reading the law is always a good start.

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## Maca49

O


> 19Conditions relating to security precautions
> (1)Every firearms licence shall be subject to the following conditions:
> (a)the holder shall not put a firearm in such a place that a young child has ready access to it:
> (b)the holder, where he or she has both a firearm and ammunition for it in his or her possession, either—
> (i)shall take reasonable steps to ensure that the ammunition is not stored in such a way that a person who obtains access to the firearm also obtains access to the ammunition; or
> (ii)shall ensure that, where the ammunition is stored with the firearm, the firearm is not capable of being discharged:
> (c)the holder shall take reasonable steps to ensure that any firearm in the holder’s possession is secured against theft:
> (d)the holder shall, where he or she has possession of a firearm that is—
> (i)a flare pistol; or
> ...


Can you ensure every AO in NZ gets a copy of this and abide by it? Fat chance I'd say. The fact this thread exists shows you what a mess the system is in IMHO

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## Maca49

Oh that's right they have a copy! They just want to do their own thing as well!  :Thumbsup:

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## 10-Ring

> O
> Can you ensure every AO in NZ gets a copy of this and abide by it? Fat chance I'd say. The fact this thread exists shows you what a mess the system is in IMHO





> Oh that's right they have a copy! They just want to do their own thing as well!


Silly talk. A man of your age should know better.

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## muzza

I suspect the original issue comes from storing the ammo - even in a locked container - in the gun safe . The law requires you store firearms and ammo " seperately". How your local vetting officer determines seperately is over to him, and his Arms Officer.

I had a similar issue with my ammo , now it is stored seperately and everyone is happy. I did tell the vetting guy to piss off if he thought he was going to record the s/n's of my firearms.....

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## Sideshow

Still like to know what they want the serial numbers for? Do they want a new data base?
If so you will see an increase in your FAC fee.

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## screamO

I was happy enough to supply my serial numbers. Didn't realize I had a choice. IMO I don't see any issues with it if they were going to create a database, on the other hand I can't work out why the wanted mine because I might sell them all tomorrow and I only have to sight there FAL.

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## R93

You can store ammo in your safe in a locked box but if you do, your bolts have to be out of the firearm.

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## Dan88

hi All

I have an AO coming over sometime in the next couple of weeks to check my safe and talk to the Mrs etc and all these posts are getting me worried.
At the moment i have a safe of stout construction and at the top of it inside the safe i have a compartment with another door and lock on it, this is where i was planning to store my bolts and ammunition.
so even if you get the main door open you still have to defeat another lock to get to the bolts and ammunnition.

Does this sound like it will comply? 
Cheers

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## R93

Yes. You don't even have to open the safe to show him anything unless you have restricted firearms he is checking on.


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## Maca49

> Silly talk. A man of your age should know better.


Mate I just get sick of the protection, listen to this thread and tell me there's not a problem there is and it's fairly wide spread!

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## Beaker

I was asked the other day, if it would be ok to have a firearm (any, shotgun, pistol or rifle - e or a), at your hand, inside, IF there were a lock down in progress due to armed folk expecticed in the area. This was around the time of those guys in the NI running around with guns and schools being shut etc.... 
So you do feel for you or yours life, due to nut jobs running around close to you, as notified by news and police, you have time to get to guns, bolts and ammo. 
If they do come onto your property, waving a gun in a threatening way to you or family, you allow them to remain on the ground until ambulance/black car removes them, then how to you fare in the law?





> When asked this question I said it would be unlikely the assailant would allow me to open my safe to retrieve a firearm then grab some ammo from another location.
> He thought it was a good answer but I was just thinking it was the one he wanted to hear.
> 
> I would do anything to protect my family and friends. 
> 
> Property is insured and can be replaced. So if that is all was what I thought they were interested in, I would just leave them to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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## Beaker

Oh and mine are in a E cat safe, ammo in a A cat safe, and both in a room of stout construction (inc steel framed and internal hinged doors, etc..) not only for police but for my own mental well being. It would piss me off if some dirt bag got their hands on my gear with out me allowing it. 
And i know the police dont need numbers etc, but i kind of trust the police system in nz, so dont mind giving them numbers if they ask. Plus we have a excellant AO here, really approachable and just a good barstard - but no bullshit/gray either way. Lucky we are....

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## deye223

> hi All
> 
> I have an AO coming over sometime in the next couple of weeks to check my safe* and talk to the Mrs etc* and all these posts are getting me worried.
> At the moment i have a safe of stout construction and at the top of it inside the safe i have a compartment with another door and lock on it, this is where i was planning to store my bolts and ammunition.
> so even if you get the main door open you still have to defeat another lock to get to the bolts and ammunnition.
> 
> Does this sound like it will comply? 
> Cheers


so why is he gunna talk to her is it her license or yours

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## res

His, but in NZ they chat to those close to you so any reluctance on there part to you having guns can be looked into. 
It's one of the best things in our licensing system and for most people it really helps them out in there application.

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## 7mmwsm

Locking ammo away isn't a big deal. Walk into any gunshop prior to duck shooting and there a usually cases of ammo on the shop floor. Don't use the  "under supervision" bullshit argument. Shoplifting is a major issue for most retailers. If their goods were supervised there would be no shoplifting.

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## Maca49

> His, but in NZ they chat to those close to you so any reluctance on there part to you having guns can be looked into. 
> It's one of the best things in our licensing system and for most people it really helps them out in there application.


Bit hard when they ask you to describe your relationship with your wife while shes in the room, hahahaha, the good thing is she gets asked the same question, I dont blush often! I take it an astute person would pick up the vibs of a relationship walking into a situation. I think you are meant to be spoken to separately and in some cases this would be of advantage. I thought the guy that just did mine was great, but we were of the same age group.also my independent referee was a person well known to the AO. I think that is important, He also speaks the truth, he told me the other day there are some that use him that he flags 
Older wiser man that one.

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## Gapped axe

Silly talk. A man of your age should know better.[/QUOTE]

Just about spilt my cuppa on that one Haha

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## Savage1

> Mate I just get sick of the protection, listen to this thread and tell me there's not a problem there is and it's fairly wide spread!


There most certainly is a problem, a problem with firearms being taken from substandard security and a relaxed attitude to firearm security.

I have been listening to this thread, but correct me if I'm wrong but it was started by a person who misunderstood the law and was inflamed by people who didn't bother to check the law.

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## timattalon

> I was asked the other day, if it would be ok to have a firearm (any, shotgun, pistol or rifle - e or a), at your hand, inside, IF there were a lock down in progress due to armed folk expecticed in the area. This was around the time of those guys in the NI running around with guns and schools being shut etc.... 
> So you do feel for you or yours life, due to nut jobs running around close to you, as notified by news and police, you have time to get to guns, bolts and ammo. 
> If they do come onto your property, waving a gun in a threatening way to you or family, you allow them to remain on the ground until ambulance/black car removes them, then how to you fare in the law?


It could be argued that seeing as you were stuck inside it may be an opportune time to thoroughly clean and check the condition of your firearms.......but in all honesty, in these situations I would much rather be somewhere else and let the authorities take the risks and exposure to danger. That's what they are trained for and paid for.

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## Savage1

> I was asked the other day, if it would be ok to have a firearm (any, shotgun, pistol or rifle - e or a), at your hand, inside, IF there were a lock down in progress due to armed folk expecticed in the area. This was around the time of those guys in the NI running around with guns and schools being shut etc.... 
> So you do feel for you or yours life, due to nut jobs running around close to you, as notified by news and police, you have time to get to guns, bolts and ammo. 
> If they do come onto your property, waving a gun in a threatening way to you or family, you allow them to remain on the ground until ambulance/black car removes them, then how to you fare in the law?


It's actually quite simple and common sense, people quite often try and over complicate it in arguments just to have a good old bitch.

S48 Crimes Act:
Everyone is justified in using, in the defence of himself or another, such force as, in the circumstances as he believes them to be, it is reasonable to use.

S62 Crimes Act:
Everyone authorised by law to use force is criminally liable for any excess according to the nature and quality of the act that constitutes the excess.

I've just recited them off the top of my head, they might not be quite verbatim.

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## 10-Ring

> Mate I just get sick of the protection, listen to this thread and tell me there's not a problem there is and it's fairly wide spread!


I understand where you're coming from. However, jumping on a keyboard and denigrating the police because you read things on an internet forum which may or may not be true is irresponsible behaviour IMHO. It's been my experience that some people always blame their unfortunate situation on somebody or something else. How hard is it for someone to sort themselves out with decent security? Instead of just meeting minimum "A" cat security, wouldn't it be better to well and truly exceed it? Sure, it's going to cost money but so do a lot of other worthwhile things. 

Some people, it would seem, like to fixate on one small issue and miss the big picture. The big picture surely is having good firearm safety practices and that includes strong security for our firearms and a gun owning public that works with the police to achieving that for the safety of all of us. The police are only human, trying to do the right thing, they sometimes make mistakes, who doesn't? If a particular AO or firearms vettor doesn't see it your way, discuss it with them and if you can't agree then you have the right to take the issue up with their superior officer.

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## Maca49

10-Ring, Whatever I do to make my enviroment safer is all to the good I agree. It is just the inconsistancy in interpretation of the law, when the AO thinks his opinions are better it blurs the black line when he decides to try to put them into practice. 
I dont see the other side of the people he deals with and Id believe that makes a difference, but we all have difficulties doing our jobs and should have the skills to perform them.
I know what I had approved just recently was flatly refused to another person by the same vetter. I know the family and I told them to query it, will be interesting to see if it changes.
I also think that maybe many of the people in the police force do not want to know about firearms? and this is why it is put back on the AO when it doesnt need to be.
Hey I support the police, think you do a great job working within tight restraints, I dont rate AOs or traffic officers in the same camp,  :Grin:

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## screamO

> There most certainly is a problem, a problem with firearms being taken from substandard security and a relaxed attitude to firearm security.
> 
> I have been listening to this thread, but correct me if I'm wrong but it was started by a person who misunderstood the law and was inflamed by people who didn't bother to check the law.


What get's me is I've upgraded my security from what was acceptable and still is acceptable to a far more superior set up which is now unacceptable. So have I misunderstood the law? Should I go back to my old setup which in hindsight I believe to be less than adequate.
At which point does a lockable cupboard become a room? Would it make it better if I said it was a cupboard?
And at no point have I got a relaxed attitude towards substandard security, I have four kids kicking about and there is no way they will gain access!

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## 10-Ring

> What get's me is I've upgraded my security from what was acceptable and still is acceptable to a far more superior set up which is now unacceptable. So have I misunderstood the law? Should I go back to my old setup which in hindsight I believe to be less than adequate.
> At which point does a lockable cupboard become a room? Would it make it better if I said it was a cupboard?
> And at no point have I got a relaxed attitude towards substandard security, I have four kids kicking about and there is no way they will gain access!


ScreamO,

It would probably be of benefit to you to discuss the above with the firearms vettor and/or the Arms Officer. Ask them to point out where they think your security has failed. Then at least you know where they're coming from and you can take it from there.

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## screamO

> ScreamO,
> 
> It would probably be of benefit to you to discuss the above with the firearms vettor and/or the Arms Officer. Ask them to point out where they think your security has failed. Then at least you know where they're coming from and you can take it from there.


Yep, the AO is going to make contact this week and we will go from there.

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## 10-Ring

> ....Hey I support the police, think you do a great job working within tight restraints, I dont rate AOs or traffic officers in the same camp,


Maca, you're entitled to your opinion but surely you don't rate all AO's and traffic police as one and the same because you've experienced an issue with one of them? Also, you're taking complaints about AO's from what you read on the internet as being gospel. You're only reading about the side of the complainant. Have you any idea of the volume of firearms related applications and issues most AO's have to deal with every day in this country?

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## screamO

> Maca, you're entitled to your opinion but surely you don't rate all AO's and traffic police as one and the same because you've experienced an issue with one of them? Also, you're taking complaints about AO's from what you read on the internet as being gospel. You're only reading about the side of the complainant. Have you any idea of the volume of firearms related applications and issues most AO's have to deal with every day in this country?


I should make it clear that I wasn't trying to offend the vetting officer nor the AO or police, I have a great deal of respect for them (most of the time). What I was trying to do is find out if he was right or not. By the comments made on this thread I'm thinking I have a right to stand my ground.
I think Maca49 has made some good points and instead of them being shut down, maybe they should be taken on board (I don't mean it in any way to be taken as a personal criticism :Have A Nice Day: .
Any way as an update I just got of the phone from the vetting officer who seems to be a good bastard (I will hold that judgment until I get my renewal) but it looks like I don't have to put a chain through my firearms.I will remove my bolts, not because I have too, but I do agree that it's a good idea and a little give and take goes a long way.
And thanks to all the posters, good and bad, that's what it's all about isn't it?

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## Maca49

> Maca, you're entitled to your opinion but surely you don't rate all AO's and traffic police as one and the same because you've experienced an issue with one of them? Also, you're taking complaints about AO's from what you read on the internet as being gospel. You're only reading about the side of the complainant. Have you any idea of the volume of firearms related applications and issues most AO's have to deal with every day in this country?


I guess I tainted by a bit more than I can say on here, and it has a long history.

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## Danny

We could all see valid and fair comment with what  @Maca49 has continued to say I do. However, I can also see fair and valid reason why any AO may need to ask to see serial numbers, open each and every lock, view where ammo is stored etc. 
The law is BERY black and white. 
So are people. 
So are hunters
So are AO's. 🏽
So are criminals. 

Most is tongue in cheek. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## screamO

So the AO turned up last night and had a quick look at my security. He was happy enough but would like another lock on one of my shed doors so that works for me. I almost thought he was turning up to take my firearms as I haven't heard any thing more about my FAL renewal.

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## 7mmwsm

> Maca, you're entitled to your opinion but surely you don't rate all AO's and traffic police as one and the same because you've experienced an issue with one of them? Also, you're taking complaints about AO's from what you read on the internet as being gospel. You're only reading about the side of the complainant. Have you any idea of the volume of firearms related applications and issues most AO's have to deal with every day in this country?


Regarding your last sentence, isn't that what they are employed to do, deal with firearm related issues? A lot of people nowdays expect to draw a wage and do as little as possible for it.
I don't believe they work on a level playing field. The environment is such that if someone dares question them, they have the ablility to make it hard.

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## Marty Henry

Missus had her renewal last week,I shoot with the cop who did it he told me her answer to the self defence question. Yes, but I'd prefer a hockey stick they're easier to swing.He laughed and carried on.

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## Maca49

Ive got ten more years as from today,unless they change the rules :Sick:

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## Maca49

> I had this exact issue , Buffilo river gunsafe with the separate lockable box inside main safe. The vetting officer said it didn't comply , the guy who sold it to me was "pretty sure" it did . H&F told me that these safes were approved by the NZ police  , and the AO  grudgingly agreed that they were compliant .... but shouldn't be.
>  The next vetting  ( moved house )  guy  had a dig about the safe but let it go , he seemed more concerned that the safe was visible from the window . he did try to get my serial #s , and  wanted to make a list of what I had.


You must look dodgy? :Thumbsup:

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## Sideshow

Sorry never got the answer to this what are they going to do with your serial numbers?
Do they have a data base?

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## zimmer

Joe Green clarified that a couple of years ago. DON'T give them your serial numbers, there is no requirement. But, keep your own records of all your serial numbers, take photos of each piece. Keep records in at least 2 different secure places. You are then covered for after theft and insurance claims. The more FA owners that "oblige" them the more it will become the unofficial norm.

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## zimmer

Who knows whether they now have a database of just scraps of paper lying around. I don't wish to have my FAs  become a shopping list by virtue of a hacked db or failed data security by whatever means. Maybe one of the FA owners who has given them access to their serial numbers can answer this question........

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## shooternz

They do have a data base of collected serial numbers they say it is so you can keep them safe incase of a robbery, A few years ago there were 5 burglaries in the Wellington area where only selected firearms were 
taken as if they had a shopping list all were cat B and C firearms turns out a cop in the know sold the information, don't know if anyone got charged for it but does not instil confidence in the Police to keep our
information secure, The less they know about what you have the better.

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## 10-Ring

> Regarding your last sentence, isn't that what they are employed to do, deal with firearm related issues? A lot of people nowdays expect to draw a wage and do as little as possible for it.
> I don't believe they work on a level playing field. The environment is such that if someone dares question them, they have the ablility to make it hard.


Well you could be right about some people but be rest assured the AO for the South Waikato works hard, is very efficient and she is very fair.

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## Maca49

She's not your wife is she?  :Thumbsup:

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## Kscott

> Who knows whether they now have a database of just scraps of paper lying around. I don't wish to have my FAs  become a shopping list by virtue of a hacked db or failed data security by whatever means. Maybe one of the FA owners who has given them access to their serial numbers can answer this question........


It's easier to just follow you home from a gunshop tbh than hack into a database to see a firearm make and model listed, with serial number. Of course, B, C, E holders have had the requirement of listing serial numbers for a while, as well as keeping a copy of the permit to procure with the make, model and serial number of each firearm on said license.

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## 10-Ring

> She's not your wife is she?


Nope.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## zimmer

> It's easier to just follow you home from a gunshop tbh than hack into a database to see a firearm make and model listed, with serial number. Of course, B, C, E holders have had the requirement of listing serial numbers for a while, as well as keeping a copy of the permit to procure with the make, model and serial number of each firearm on said license.


Agreed, or follow you home from the range. Or with minimal sleuthing, (in some cases) trace a Trademe listing, or even members of this forum. But the whole deal is about minimising risk and I do have direct control over giving out a list of my FA inventory as part of some nebulous requirement.

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## Tommy

I mostly trust the police, but missing glocks and the odd pound or two of meth going astray from evidence safes leaves me wanting to keep that info to myself thanks very much.

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## Kscott

> I do have direct control over giving out a list of my FA inventory as part of some nebulous requirement.


Each to their own, I just don't see the difference from buying from a shop, who records the details in a nice big book that sits in the shop, which can be accessed by the Police via a search warrant at any time. I can't know who in the shop has access to that book, what security measures are in place for data control and how up to date it is. But as an endorsed FAL holder, I already have my firearms logged and permitted with NZ Police, hence my perspective.

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## zimmer

Yep, you got it, each to his own, the beauty of a forum with diverse views presented  :Wink:

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## Kscott

:Thumbsup:

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