# Hunting > The Magazine >  .223: The Ins & Outs of it

## Tahr

Ive always used a .222 or .223  and over the last 12 months have shot 18 deer with my .223's. I have 3 .223's - more by accident than design - but at least it means that I can have certain loads for certain uses (e.g. one is set up for wallaby and one for deer). My favourite is a little Savage Lightweight and the others are a Tikka and a Mod7. There has been a bit of revival in interest on here about the .222/.223 on deer recently and its got me using mine even more.   @Nathan F started an interesting thread about the .222.

So yesterday instead taking a big banger for a walk I opted for the Savage and a warm load of Nosler Bonded Solid Base 64 grain at 3150 fps. You can't get these bullets any more but I still have 100 and they are pretty damn good and very accurate in my rifle. 

It was also the first outing for my dog Tilly since she had a cancer op 3 weeks ago to remove a couple of tumours in her udder/breast.

It was pretty damned windy over on the Wairarapa coast when I arrived at 5pm and I had to shift location to get the wind right, but I had plenty of time. After a bit of a walk Tilly and I eventually parked up at a spot where I could get a good view and we relaxed a bit while waiting for deer o-clock. She was loving being out, albeit a bit annoying by rubbing against my face to show how pleased she was.



As the shadows got longer the wind abated a little bit, but still strong enough to mean that I needed to hunt the sheltered gully heads rather than the open bush line. So we dropped down and started to sidle around looking into the little sheltered nooks and crannies. Tilly wasn't much use because there wasn't any sort of updraft so I was on my own in terms of finding something. Usually I can rely on her nose a bit to at least give me a heads up.

It started to look like we were going to have a dry run as it got really gloomy but as we peeked into a sharp little creek I spied what I thought were dappled light spots. I raised my binos with one hand and saw what I first thought was a red fawn and then realised it was a Fallow. It was the first I had seen in the area so it was a surprise to see it. It was feeding and unaware and quartering towards me at what I thought was about 80 yards. I quietly sat down, and very quietly stuck a round up the spout (Im seldom on half cock) - put the cross hairs on its shoulder and sent a not very confident shot off.

There was a good "thwack" and it leapt in the air and then looked like it was tipping over, but regained momentum and disappeared into the the trees. Tilly and I sat for 5 minutes and then quietly dropped down towards where it had been. Tilly's nose told me it was dead close by and sure enough she found it less than 10 yards from where I had shot it. Her 210th deer with me. Bless her.



It was a big fat spiker, so that was pretty good. But there was a hole in its guts and at first I though I must have gut shot it and my heart sank, but then I realised it was on the wrong side and turning it over I found that it had a busted shoulder right where I had aimed. I had ranged the shot before we walked down and it had been 114 yards ((a bit further than I had thought but steep down hill can be deceiving).

You can see its busted shoulder in this pic.



What really impressed me was the performance of the little bullet. A diagonal pass through and a quick kill. Even with larger calibers the gut bag can be a bullet stopper. Big ups for the little bullet's design.

Here's a pic of the entry under the shoulder.



And here is the exit.



And here's the little .223



It was dark now and we had plenty of time so I leisurely boned the deer out ((discarded one blood shot shoulder) and prepared for the carry out. Tilly woofed down lots of scraps. We were a happy couple.



It only took 45 mins to get back to the truck and I was looking forward to getting home before midnight. But it wasn't to be. I had forgotten that the Rimutakas were closed for repairs for the next few nights and at Greytown was met by flashing "road closed" signs. Bugger. So I had to wake a motel owner up at 11pm and get a bed for the night. I finally got home at 7.30am this morning.

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## rugerman

Great stuff Tahr, good to see the Tillster out on the hills again  :Have A Nice Day:  she looks as happy as  a pig in muck in that photo  :Have A Nice Day:  
Geez at least you didn't come back around and over the track and back home the long way  :Wtfsmilie:

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## Tahr

> Great stuff Tahr, good to see the Tillster out on the hills again  she looks as happy as  a pig in muck in that photo  
> Geez at least you didn't come back around and over the track and back home the long way


haha. I  rang my wife and told her that's what I was going to do, but she put a stop to it. Best thing, because I was tired anyway.

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## grandpamac

> haha. I  rang my wife and told her that's what I was going to do, but she put a stop to it. Best thing, because I was tired anyway.


Greetings Tahr and Tilly,
I suspect that a lot of hunters today wouldn't have heard of the solid base. Nice deer should be tasty.
Regards Grandpamac.

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## rugerman

Good plan man  :Have A Nice Day:  there are a few cars that go off the side of the track road, it's pretty turny especially when ya tired.

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## Tahr

> Greetings Tahr and Tilly,
> I suspect that a lot of hunters today wouldn't have heard of the solid base. Nice deer should be tasty.
> Regards Grandpamac.


Hi GPM @grandpamac. These are different to our old Nosler "solid base". https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010872858

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## Flyblown

I’ve still got a bunch of the Nosler loaded up and ready to go. They are a hard little bullet - it’s designed to penetrate walls, glass, people’s vests, etc. I’ve got photos somewhere of the chest cavity from the inside showing what it will do to a red deer. 

Looking at the photo of Tilly with the deer, my instinctive response was “she’s had a blue rinse like my Nan”. She’d probably qualify now, definitely blue, not pink eh. Delighted to see her back on the job, good on both of you.

 :Thumbsup:

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## Tahr

> I’ve still got a bunch of the Nosler loaded up and ready to go. They are a hard little bullet - it’s designed to penetrate walls, glass, people’s vests, etc. I’ve got photos somewhere of the chest cavity from the inside showing what it will do to a red deer. 
> 
> Looking at the photo of Tilly with the deer, my instinctive response was “she’s had a blue rinse like my Nan”. She’d probably qualify now, definitely blue, not pink eh. Delighted to see her back on the job, good on both of you.


 @Flyblown I expect that she votes National, but she won't say. I've only shot 3 deer with those Noslers' so its hardly an extensive test. But I like them - accuracy is number one for me and these have that and great penetration. I have noted your comments previously though that they might not "do the damage". And my experience is that where there isn't foot-pounds there needs to be damage.

The best .223 projectile for me on deer has been the 77 grn Sierra tipped but my Savage has too slow a twist for them (1/9).

Its a load of fun though, loading stuff.

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## Micky Duck

awesome to see Tilly up and out again...great lesson on the wee 224s....you are 100% right,its a thinking game when using them,got to accept the limits and stick to them.

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## Nathan F

Nice one Mr C. Love your work. What a gem that dog is  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Tahr

> It's a hard life, but someone has to do it...


Im very happy for you to leave it to the old, while you thrust and parry your way life  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Mooseman

Good report on the bullets performance, always nice to see the real thing, it gives you confidence in them to do a good job. Great to see Tilly in her element long may it last.

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## Tahr

> Im very happy for you to leave it to the old, while you thrust and parry your way life


through ^

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## Micky Duck

I read that 3 times and my mind had put missing word in each time..... thrust and party might have fitted better (I seem to recall doing plenty of thrusting at parties as a young fella)

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## Synthetic

Great stuff, now I don't feel so guilty for having two 223's.

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## tiroahunta

Not sure what this resurgence thing is regarding the mighty .223....been using it for years....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## 25 /08 IMP

Awesome stuff Tahr I hope Tilly has no long lasting effects from the cancer opp.
I used alot of the nosler SB over the years they were awesome I used alot of 52 grn in my.223, I wish they still made them.

Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk

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## Tahr

> Not sure what this ‘resurgence’ thing is regarding the mighty .223....been using it for years....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ha. Not everyone has been around for years I guess. Am happy to pass on a little bit of old person experience and .223 Mana.

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## tiroahunta

> Ha. Not everyone has been around for years I guess. Am happy to pass on a little bit of old person experience and .223 Mana.


Fair enough. FYI Im shy of your age by 25 years (ish). Funny enough thats how long Ive had the .223 for....


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## nor-west

> Awesome stuff Tahr I hope Tilly has no long lasting effects from the cancer opp.
> I used alot of the nosler SB over the years they were awesome I used alot of 52 grn in my.223, I wish they still made them.
> 
> Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk


Ive got 300 odd saving them for the 22.250 1.12 twist

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## viper

Great story and photo's as always Tahr , thanks for the write up.

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## Tahr

> Ive got 300 odd saving them for the 22.250 1.12 twist


Nah  @nor-west and  @25/08 IMP, you guys are confusing the bullet I used with the old original Nosler solid base. I used a bonded solid base which is quite different to what you are thinking of.

Those old sold base were good though.

Nosler 22 64gr Protected Point /Cann 410 Bonded Solid Base (100 ct)

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## NZPureLamb

Nice write up! was a great read,

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## trooper90

Glad to see Tilly's out on the hill again. Nice autopsy!

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## Ftx325

all this talk of 223 and trebley's has me wondering if maybe I'm over compensating for something with the 308 and 338 ...?
Great to see Tilly out and about again @Tahr and the pair of you are back to business as usual .

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## Norway

Thanks! 
Strange how cultures differ. I know it's a real killerm, but here a 223 is considered ok for crow and smaller  :XD: 

Same goes for 6mm, considered ok for the smalles of deers but I find that it kills any deer just as good as anything else.

There's so many new hunting bullets coming out now, that cartridges only seem to get better.

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## flock

I tried the Noslar Partitions, they never made it out hunting as the the grouping was 2 inches plus at 100, when I commented  about the accuracy I got the reply well,  they are a hunting bullet. My  key to the smaller calibres is accuracy,  close up shots I'm sure they would work well, on larger animals. Like Norway said there are much better projectiles these days.

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## tetawa

Still use the old 55gr Nosler SB in 223, don't shoot over 180 metres, always do the job if I do mine.

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## caberslash

Bullet expansion does not matter if you go for the head  :X X:  :X X:

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## Dicko

And can consistently make the shot

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## bumblefoot

I'm finding the 55gr Sierra Game Kings in the Buffalo 223 ammo really good. This is one from the opposite shoulder of a fallow yearling at 346m (used a rangefinder). it held together really well Usually I wouldn't shoot that far with the 223 but had a perfect rest (used a red deer spiker on the front of the bike as a rest !). it was at the same elevation as I was shooting, no wind and a yearling.

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## Dicko

Bumblefoot, those projectiles are the ones sold here in bulk as Sierra Super Roo pills. $600/2000 if irc. Well known to be a hard cup and core projectile. Your data point probably supports this.

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## tetawa

> I'm finding the 55gr Sierra Game Kings in the Buffalo 223 ammo really good. This is one from the opposite shoulder of a fallow yearling at 346m (used a rangefinder). it held together really well Usually I wouldn't shoot that far with the 223 but had a perfect rest (used a red deer spiker on the front of the bike as a rest !). it was at the same elevation as I was shooting, no wind and a yearling. 
> 
> Attachment 162544


Excellent expansion from a 223 projectile at that distance, have you shot deer with it under 100 meters.

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## bumblefoot

> Excellent expansion from a 223 projectile at that distance, have you shot deer with it under 100 meters.


 @tetawa I've only shot 5 deer with it. The fallow buck below was about 100m away. All have dropped on the spot. This buck was above me coming down a hill (NOT sky-lined...) The projectile entered the chest (front on) smashed up the lungs, and ended up smashing the spine just in front of the rump.

On goats at close range they drop them like a sack of spuds with about a 50c size hole in and out the shoulder; but the lungs wrecked; same with fallow under 100m. My mate shot a big heavy billy right through the shoulder at 100m and it went 5m 50c hole either side and lungs wrecked too. Bugger all ruined meat in all cases.

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## bumblefoot

@Phil_H Just remember to get the Buffalo ammo with the 55gr Game King; not the 55gr Blitz King which is a varmint bullet. It easily puts 3 rounds into an inch through my Howa mini. It could probably do better with a better marksman as I don't pretend to be a sniper by any means!

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## tetawa

> @tetawa I've only shot 5 deer with it. The fallow buck below was about 100m away. All have dropped on the spot. This buck was above me coming down a hill (NOT sky-lined...) The projectile entered the chest (front on) smashed up the lungs, and ended up smashing the spine just in front of the rump.
> 
> On goats at close range they drop them like a sack of spuds with about a 50c size hole in and out the shoulder; but the lungs wrecked; same with fallow under 100m. My mate shot a big heavy billy right through the shoulder at 100m and it went 5m 50c hole either side and lungs wrecked too. Bugger all ruined meat in all cases.
> 
> Attachment 162567


Very good, did you happen to retain any of the projectiles, if so did they show great "mushrooming" like the long shot or break up.

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## bumblefoot

@tetawa @Phil_H This is the billy that my mate shot through the shoulder at 100m. It only went 5m. And it was a really big-bodied animal with a shaggy coat, so harder to knock down than a fallow doe etc. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65WkFb9gbUM

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## Marty Henry

When I used to reload for the 223 the 55 gr Sierras were  my go to, the hollow point boat tail version seemed to be the better bullet in my rifle but really drops off past 200 metres

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## Tahr

Lots of .223 projectiles work. I shot a Fallow at a couple of hundred with a Targex 52 grain not long ago. It did some impressive damage. Ive shot dozens with the 52 grn hollow point match. 55 grain. Sierra too - they are a good bullet to use on wallaby if there are deer around...just in case  :Have A Nice Day:

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## tetawa

Have shot more than a few deer with .222 and .223, 99% would be under 180 meters, was very impressed with the end result of the projectile at close to 400 meters, but still don't class the .223 a 400 meter deer cartridge.

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## gimp

I shot my first deer 17 years ago with a .223 and have always had a probably unreasonable enthusiasm for it. It seems to work well even with 55gr size bullets but there is a lot more potential if using heavier bullets. Factory rifles are a bit limiting for the best possible results with the longer 75-90gr bullets mainly due to restrictive mag length now that 1:8 twists are more available. Aftermarket mags like the AICS pattern accurate mags can be modified easily to allow about 70mm OAL, 10-15mm more than most .223 factory mags. This is a more modern and geeky approach than the spirit of the ol' .222 with factory 55 grainers but it does extend the capability of a .223 by miles, to within spitting distance of standard factory .243 maybe but for half the powder. 80gr at 2850 from an 18" barrel.

I like my custom model 7 and haven't taken another rifle out of the safe in the last 6 months but have only been out 4 times and shot 4 deer with it  so far.

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## gimp

I am thoroughly impressed with Bruce's dedication to continuing to get out in the hills also

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## Tahr

> I am thoroughly impressed with Bruce's dedication to continuing to get out in the hills also


This last night. 7-08 @ 110 yards though. Common garden 140 sst

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## Tahr

> I shot my first deer 17 years ago with a .223 and have always had a probably unreasonable enthusiasm for it. It seems to work well even with 55gr size bullets but there is a lot more potential if using heavier bullets. Factory rifles are a bit limiting for the best possible results with the longer 75-90gr bullets mainly due to restrictive mag length now that 1:8 twists are more available. Aftermarket mags like the AICS pattern accurate mags can be modified easily to allow about 70mm OAL, 10-15mm more than most .223 factory mags. This is a more modern and geeky approach than the spirit of the ol' .222 with factory 55 grainers but it does extend the capability of a .223 by miles, to within spitting distance of standard factory .243 maybe but for half the powder. 80gr at 2850 from an 18" barrel.
> 
> I like my custom model 7 and haven't taken another rifle out of the safe in the last 6 months but have only been out 4 times and shot 4 deer with it  so far.
> 
> Attachment 162583


Exactly. Im limited to the 77 Sierra tipped because of mag length but man they punch above their weight. Have just bought some 80 eldm and have a long T3 mag on the way from Aus. From what @gimp has posted (through pics) the eldm are a bit harder than the Sierra tipped. The Sierra at 2.9k are impressive all the same, and Im not quite sure why Im mucking around with the eldm. Maybe mu ocd  :Have A Nice Day:

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## 30late

> Greetings Tahr and Tilly,
> I suspect that a lot of hunters today wouldn't have heard of the solid base. Nice deer should be tasty.
> Regards Grandpamac.


I was thinking the same thing , back in the day when using a .243 the 100gr Nosler solid base was a very good pill on deer.

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## Walker

Still got some for my 243!

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## Tahr

This .223 theme.

2 last night. 77grn Sierra Tipped MK.

Fallow at 250 yds, boiler room. 



Big lump of a stag at 100 odd yards. High neck shot. 3 stags together, all still had their head gear on.

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## charliehorse

@Tahr how far did that fallow make it?

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## Tahr

> @Tahr how far did that fallow make it?


Less than 15 yards. Just a bit of a rush down hill. Have just skinned it - hit lowish centre shoulder.

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## nor-west

That Red is a big looking animal!

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## Trout

> That Red is a big looking animal!


Bit of wap in the red,its big allright.

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## Nathan F

@Tahr Im literally weeks away from taking the .222 on its first jaunt after deer. To say im fizzing would be an understatement .

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## Tahr

> @Tahr Im literally weeks away from taking the .222 on its first jaunt after deer. To say im fizzing would be an understatement .


Great! Looking forward to hearing how it goes. Nice bit of nostalgia. Your Dad was a culler wasn't he?

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## Tahr

> That Red is a big looking animal!


  @nor-west he was a big one alright, and not that old. The cocky was a bit pissed about a group of reds raiding his locked up weaner paddock so I swung past there on the way home - it was dark by then so I used the torch. I saw six and snuck in on 3. One was plenty because it took me 2 40 minute trips fully loaded to carry him out.

 @Trout - no wap. They are just big deer in that particular area.

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## Nathan F

> Great! Looking forward to hearing how it goes. Nice bit of nostalgia. Your Dad was a culler wasn't he?


No just nzfs

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## Tahr

> No just nzfs


The hills are in your blood.

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## Trout

Last week i did a couple of evening walks with the Serbian 222,expecting to see yearlings,no luck tho.Nice wee rifle on your sholder,hardley know it was there.

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## GWH

For some reason I've only just seen your original post from back in march @Tahr.  Very cool post mate and a neat thread.  :Thumbsup:

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## Russian 22.

What advantage do you perceive in carrying a 223 as opposed to something like a 6mmCM or 243 shooting 100 grains super fast? To me a bigger bullet and larger diameter is always better. both of the 6mm's have a longer effective range and still affordable/able to aquire projectiles.

I only had a 223 as it was cheap shooting in an AR. never seen the point in buying a replacement 223 when they were ban hammered. Never seemed like 223 was effective on goats and pigs but i was using barnaul. @Tahr

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## dannyb

I was using a 223 on goats out to 300 yards last week with standard fiocchi 55gn soft points, it was certainly effective and much cheaper to feed than a 243 or 6mm cm
My 2 cents

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## Russian 22.

> I was using a 223 on goats out to 300 yards last week with standard fiocchi 55gn soft points, it was certainly effective and much cheaper to feed than a 243 or 6mm cm
> My 2 cents


Bruce uses gucci barnes and noslers. they're up there in price. back when powder was well priced then using a pretty standard projectile a 243 wouldn't be too bad to reload for.

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## Tahr

> What advantage do you perceive in carrying a 223 as opposed to something like a 6mmCM or 243 shooting 100 grains super fast? To me a bigger bullet and larger diameter is always better. both of the 6mm's have a longer effective range and still affordable/able to aquire projectiles.
> 
> I only had a 223 as it was cheap shooting in an AR. never seen the point in buying a replacement 223 when they were ban hammered. Never seemed like 223 was effective on goats and pigs but i was using barnaul. @Tahr


Mostly, its the tradition. The meat hunting days and nostalgia for me.

With the 77-80 grn bullets at circa 2.9K in the .223 you are close to 243 performance with half the powder and less noise and fuss. And almost invariably deadly accurate.
And using any .223 bullet you are going to be aware of the energy and range limitations and take more care with the shot placement - that's very satisfying.

And to be honest, when I shoot a deer with the .223 I do feel rather smug.

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## gimp

It's so easy to shoot well from awkward positions, comes in tiny light rifles, and absolutely smokes things with the 75-80gr bullets. What's not to like.

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## Tahr

> Bruce uses gucci barnes and noslers. they're up there in price. back when powder was well priced then using a pretty standard projectile a 243 wouldn't be too bad to reload for.


On deer, yes to the 64 grain Nosler solid base bonded - I have 150 and then they are finished. They went out of production last year. 

55 Barnes were good but haven't used them for a couple of years.

One of my .223's is sighted in for the 69grain Targex and thats a good duel load for wallaby and deer.

Mainly use the 77 grain Sierra Tipped on deer now. They are wonderful.

On wallaby Im using what I can get: 69grn Targex (but they are nearly all gone and Targex cant make any more for quite a while because he doesn't have jackets) and 55 grain Sierra GK mainly. Quite a few 52 grain Targex (they are still available).

I have a few hundred 52 ELDM loaded but not used yet, and 300 55 grn Hornady to load.

Great versatile caliber and heaps of fun.

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## Flyblown

And you don’t need the flash harry high BC heavy .224 bullets either.

A well placed Belmont 62gr softpoint makes a beaut mushroom and red hinds bleed out very quickly or go down DRT if you judge it right and nail the hilar. Just wait for the angle quartering away, tucked in around rib #7 raking across the vitals - unsurvivable. I reload the Belmont / ADI brass with Speer 70gr semi-points and get exactly the same outcome, except the Speer sheds a little more weight. 

Just avoid the leg bones… wait for the angle.

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## 7.62

> What advantage do you perceive in carrying a 223 as opposed to something like a 6mmCM or 243 shooting 100 grains super fast? To me a bigger bullet and larger diameter is always better. both of the 6mm's have a longer effective range and still affordable/able to aquire projectiles.
> 
> I only had a 223 as it was cheap shooting in an AR. never seen the point in buying a replacement 223 when they were ban hammered. Never seemed like 223 was effective on goats and pigs but i was using barnaul. @Tahr


You’re right. The extra diameter, weight, and speed that a 243 has over a 223 make it a more emphatic killer as far as deer go. Do the numbers on a 243 with a 90gr eldx vs a 223 with a 73gr eldm; the 243 has almost as much energy at 300yd as the 223 at the muzzle. I found that deer hit hard in the chest with a 223 would often run some distance before expiring; not far but far enough to piss me off. Maybe it was the monolithics I was using, and in hindsight I would’ve liked to have tried something like an eldm, I’m sure they would’ve performed better. But there’s no such complication with a 243, just poke a no frills soft point in the boiler room and game over

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## Preacher

You are also correct @7.62.

Love my .243....but as many others above have pointed out the .223 can be a deadly, lightweight setup if used within the confines of the cartridge.  Like almost every calibre.

Pretty sure @Thar and @gimp know what they are on about.
 @gimp I'm sorry if it has been covered before but if you can be bothered could you please give us a run down on that rig?

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## caberslash

Would have thought the 69 grain+ bullets rule out the wee Sako Vixen as an action... anyone put a fast twist barrel on a Vixen?

That being said, having both a Rem Model 7 and L461, I'd be very tempted to turn the Rem Model 7 into a 1:7" twist .223AI...

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## Tahr

> Would have thought the 69 grain+ bullets rule out the wee Sako Vixen as an action... anyone put a fast twist barrel on a Vixen?
> 
> That being said, having both a Rem Model 7 and L461, I'd be very tempted to turn the Rem Model 7 into a 1:7" twist .223AI...


My factory Rem M7 stabilises the 69 grn no problem. 1:9 I think.
I use a 1:8 Tikka for 77 grn.

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## gimp

> @gimp I'm sorry if it has been covered before but if you can be bothered could you please give us a run down on that rig?


Model 7 stainless action, 18" bartlein 1:8 barrel, dpt mini, Manners EH8 stock, CDI bottom metal with modified Accurate mags allowing long OAL loads, timney trigger. Favourite rifle by far. It has a March 3-24 ffp on it now instead of the Mk4

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## Preacher

Cheers for that.  I like a lot.

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## TeRei

> On deer, yes to the 64 grain Nosler solid base bonded - I have 150 and then they are finished. They went out of production last year. 
> 
> 55 Barnes were good but haven't used them for a couple of years.
> 
> One of my .223's is sighted in for the 69grain Targex and thats a good duel load for wallaby and deer.
> 
> Mainly use the 77 grain Sierra Tipped on deer now. They are wonderful.
> 
> On wallaby Im using what I can get: 69grn Targex (but they are nearly all gone and Targex cant make any more for quite a while because he doesn't have jackets) and 55 grain Sierra GK mainly. Quite a few 52 grain Targex (they are still available).
> ...


The 77 because of the BC? My mate swears by the 55gr Barnes and mates in Auckland scream do not adjust the telly... 60gr Hornady in the Vixen. Last outing with my Barnes mate we got 3 with the 65gr Sierra. You look in the reloading cabinet and there is a whole load of different pills to use and you wonder if it will ever happen.

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## nor-west

Bugger you guy no sooner than I get some dosh in the bank I need a fast twist .223 so .224 Valkyrie in 1/7 twist be the go?

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## gimp

> Bugger you guy no sooner than I get some dosh in the bank I need a fast twist .223 so .224 Valkyrie in 1/7 twist be the go?


.223 howa mini, ken Henderson stock, 77 TMKs

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## gadgetman

A bit late to this thread. I love my cheap little Vixen clone, a Zastava mini Mauserish action with a 1:12 twist. It's fairly accurate and small things fall over to it on a regular basis. I nailed a little pig, about the same size as the one Gimp had on the previous page, shot over a rock at 250m and the 55gn Hornady soft point placed just behind the ear dropped it straight down. Such a pleasure to shoot and it's accuracy gives me the confidence with shot placement.

I was looking for a better quality 223, the Savage was at the top of the list at the time, but I just couldn't justify buying it as a replacement for this little thing that cost me $400 very used with a scope several years ago. I know it, ... it seems to know me, ... happy families.

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## Brian

Everyone who's got a zastava mini seems to like it.

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## Micky Duck

my wife was preggers with our first...I went hunting in greenstone for a week and took enough smokes for two days...came out and had enough $$$ to buy pack of John Brandon 15s or a meat pie...the pie won...my good wonderful Mrs said use your smoke money and pay off a rifle,so off to Dixs we went..the yhad mini mauser in hornet....oh boy was that tempting,even had open sights..but I ordered one in 223  as ammunition was cheap....it duely arrived and came home with a 3x9x40mm nikko stirling gold crown (Finnwolf has that awesome wee scope now)  and 100 rounds of norinco yellow packet FMJ to break rifle in.
down to local secluded beach..fire one shot,clean,shoot clean,shoot clean,shoot 2 clean,shoot 2 clean.... shoot 3 call it good.
went out spotlighting on mates place,20-30 hares dropped no problem...another place similar number of rabbits...mate loaded me up some reloads 55grn winchester projectiles and 24.5grns AR 2206 H   it shot tiny wee group.....WOW
 went up to my wallaby spot with my young bitch "Buttons" we walking around hill face and she started acting all goofey like (oh if I had only known about indicating dogs then) I EVENTUALLY twigged she knew something was around,looked across gully and say mob og pigs making good their escape,sat down,rifle braced elbows on knees,3 shots three neck shot porkers.....WOWY WOWY.....
 was close to dark by time they were gutte and propped open so returned next day to collect...I was hooked
many years of shooting wallabies,learnt to reload for cost....
then discovered varmit type projectiles..that was eye opener on wallabies,no more runners....
barnes 50grn ttsx  preform like a 130grn coreloct out of .270 just in reverse order of damage on animal... its the near shoulder that looks worst with barnes...
at a guess Ive fired 1000-1500 rounds through the wee Zastava and it still more accurate than me....half dozen folks have killed first animals with it....
put a 3x9x50mm older leupold on it,sighted in 1.5" high at hundy about 15 years ago and havent shifted it since...
it will put just about any ammunition from 45-64grns into ragged group hovering around inch...and thats a COMBINED group....eg it doesnt matter which ammuntion is in rifle it will hit within inch at hundy....... rifle cured flinch for me...its reasured "Royal twelve/Jasper" he could shoot...sub inch group with 5 mixed rounds prooved that.....so YES I do love my wee Zastava.
she sitting in gun case waiting to head out after wallabies tomorrow...RUMPYs young fella might just shoot his 2nd wallaby with it tomorrow,he sure pulled one out of box to get the first...RUMPY held forestock up on end of his upright barrel,young fella lined up rifle with butt OFF/ontop of his shoulder, as was too long I held buttplate in hands and he moved Xhairs onto wally and squeazed trigger...neck shot at about hundy yards..... try that with a heavier calibre.

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## mudgripz

Good tale Micky..

Pic of my new-to-me 223.  This is a worker rifle - Howa/Mueller scope/Gunworks.  Bought for the hills after wallabies, and 100-200m bunnies from the truck.  Should be spot on for the job:

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## Dama dama

> Everyone who's got a zastava mini seems to like it.


Not me, I've had two and didn't enjoy either.  I think I sold you one of them...?

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## Brian

Yep. Bedded and suppressed it. Been going like a dream ever since.

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## Jhon

> Yep. Bedded and suppressed it. Been going like a dream ever since.


what would a used Zastava 223, bare rifle, good bore go for these days?

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## gadgetman

> what would a used Zastava 223, bare rifle, good bore go for these days?


I've seen them in the $700-800 region.

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## gadgetman

> Yep. Bedded and suppressed it. Been going like a dream ever since.


I picked mine up cheap because it was shooting 3-4" groups at 100m at best. I figured that it would do for the odd pig walking out in front of me at 30m, a common occurrence while bunny busting with the 22lr. Without firing it I dropped it in to Gunworks for a suppressor because I didn't want to spook the rabbits. Went to sight it in when I got it back and everything was 11-13mm three shot groups at 100m. I did lodge a complaint with Amanda on my next visit to Gunworks. Completely ruined my _need_ for something better.

Wouldn't want it buried with me, mind. Be far more useful in someone else's hands.

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## Trout

Cheap enough toys there Phil. :Thumbsup:

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## Jhon

> Here's two of them sub $700 both at the same place....
> 
> https://www.shooterssupplies.co.nz/p...valkm85-10976/
> 
> https://www.shooterssupplies.co.nz/p...ionrifle-9797/
> 
> Cheers
> Phil


Well they didn't last long, both showing as Out of Stock

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## mudgripz

Mate just took my new-to-me Howa model 1500 223 (pictured in post above) out to range to shoot it in.  A very fine shooter - shot 0.32 and 0.35" three shot groups at 100m with his handloads, and 0.7" five shot groups with Fiocchi SP 55gr softnose bulk ammo currently available - which I'll be using. 

Will be a very precise worker...  Just proves old adage - you do not need to spend up on big names for a deadly effective hunter rifle

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## Trout

Well done Mdgz,.7" youll be doing head shots after a few dozen bunnys.Thats FIOCCHI ammo ok in the 308 too.

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## mudgripz

Quite impressed with Howa model 1500 tests on range few days back, and also with support from manufacturers Howa USA - owned by Legacy Sports.  

Was trying to figure out year of manufacture of this model 223 from serial number but no joy.  So last night left a question on the Howa USA site - it promises they will answer shortly.  They did...within 6 hours!  Howa's parent company (Legacy Sports) came back to me:

"Mike ~ Good morning, I hope all is well. Based off of your Howas Serial number (B167911), you have a Howa 223 made in August 2008 with a 22 standard barrel, and a ROT of 1:12.

 Thank You,  Chad J. Peters" 

Now that's good customer service,  Super quick response from across the world - and great to learn twist rate too.  Well done Howa.   :Thumbsup:

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## Jhon

> Quite impressed with Howa model 1500 tests on range few days back, and also with support from manufacturers Howa USA - owned by Legacy Sports.  
> 
> Was trying to figure out year of manufacture of this model 223 from serial number but no joy.  So last night left a question on the Howa USA site - it promises they will answer shortly.  They did...within 6 hours!  Howa's parent company (Legacy Sports) came back to me:
> 
> "Mike ~ Good morning, I hope all is well. Based off of your Howa’s Serial number (B167911), you have a Howa 223 made in August 2008 with a 22” standard barrel, and a ROT of 1:12.
> 
>  Thank You,  Chad J. Peters" 
> 
> Now that's good customer service,  Super quick response from across the world - and great to learn twist rate too.  Well done Howa.


Nice. Quite a slow twist tho if you want to shoot the heavier pills. 1:12 tops out about what, 62gn? Bit more?

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## bumblefoot

@mudgripz They know how to do customer service in the States...  :Have A Nice Day:

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## mudgripz

Quite happy with 1:12 for my particular uses, as for me its backup rifle for longer range varminting - for bunnies, wallabies and occasional fallow.  For that a 55-62gr softnose is perfect. 

Last sunday it shot four test groups between 0.7 and 0.9" with the Fiocchi SP 55gr softs at 100m.  That's sharp for factory ammo. 

For bigger game there's a Winchester model 670 .243 in the closet..

Yes ..very impressed that a US manufacturer would answer a query on a secondhand product from across the world in just a few hours.  I like that!!

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## Tahr

Ive contributed a lot about the benefits of "smart" bullets in the .223, but the reality is that the good old ordinary Hornady and Sierra 55 grn are very effective on up to deer. The smart ones give an extra margin of range and effectiveness but its a nice to have, not a necessity, to get a lot of fun from a .223.

A 55 grn "ordinary" into the lungs of a deer out to 200-250 yards will still be very effective.

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## tiroahunta

Yes Ive always run a 55 grain of some form. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Micky Duck

and within 200yards a 50grn ttsx is VERY effective.

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## flock

Love the 55 grain bt canalure Hornady sp  at 38cents a pill. Don't over push them at 3100 from a Savage model 10 lightweight , 1 in 9 twist. 200 Metres is child's play. 223 is just so nice to carry and use.

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## flock

Here s my Recipe if any is interested

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## Tahr

Shot this hind with Rem M7 .223 and 69 grn Targex last evening. 251 yds slightly facing me. Aimed for point of shoulder. She went straight down and rolled into a damn swamp.



These things don't muck around. Shoulder peeled back showing entry through rib cage.

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## 30late

Hey Tahr i like the look on Tillys face in that last post , to me she looks like shes just been asked to stand there for another bloody photo  :Thumbsup:

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## Tahr

> Hey Tahr i like the look on Tillys face in that last post , to me she looks like shes just been asked to stand there for another bloody photo


Exactly. She was checking it out and I said her name to get her to look up.

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## Rwt

I've tried 69gr targex projectiles, shoot really well and they seem to do the job on animals but my supply is somewhat limited, has anyone tried the sierra 69gr SMK as a substitute?

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## charliehorse

:Zomg:  not suprised she went straight down looking at that carnage

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## Nathan F

@Tahr I’m thinking I need a .223. Definitely a need not a want  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Tahr

> @Tahr I’m thinking I need a .223. Definitely a need not a want


They are next level up.

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## 7mmsaum

The 223 is seriously useful and even more so when suppressed 

The 60g nbt at 3100 great on rabbits a long way out there and fun on targets to 850 yrds 

The solid copper boat tail ensures penetration on deer and you often find the projectile under the far side skin or exited. 

The 55/65g gameking are hammers on deer as well. Often the most fun afternoons are to be had with a Mercator, a few rounds in your pocket and a 223 for company.

Both of these are 1 in 8 twist

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## tikka

Is that a carbonlite?

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## RUMPY

Well, thanks @Tahr and everyone else who has contributed to this thread. What a great amount of info in these 8 pages that I have only just discovered.
Really excited as I currently have a 223 in transit that I purchased from @Backsteaks.

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## Nathan F

Hmmmm Xmas is coming 

https://choose.sako.fi/global/sako_85/85-carbonlight

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## Chur Bay

Howa mini bro :Cool:

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## TeRei

> The 223 is seriously useful and even more so when suppressed 
> 
> The 60g nbt at 3100 great on rabbits a long way out there and fun on targets to 850 yrds 
> 
> The solid copper boat tail ensures penetration on deer and you often find the projectile under the far side skin or exited. 
> 
> The 55/65g gameking are hammers on deer as well. Often the most fun afternoons are to be had with a Mercator, a few rounds in your pocket and a 223 for company.
> 
> Both of these are 1 in 8 twist
> ...


Whats the glass on the carbo. Nice pic.

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## 7mmsaum

> Whats the glass on the carbo. Nice pic.


It’s a VX3i 3.5-10-40 I had on a Prosport

Nice and light and easy to use on a 223

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## RUMPY

> i bet most of your shots will be anywhere in the eye


Geez @Dusty Fog, between you and @Micky Duck people will start thinking I can hit what I'm aiming at.  :Grin:

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## XR500

With the current shortage of everything, 'efficient AND effective' pretty well sums up the 'ol 223.

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## Tahr

> With the current shortage of everything, 'efficient AND effective' pretty well sums up the 'ol 223.


Yes. And they can consume a big cross section of powders and projectiles which all work pretty well on most things. You can carefully pop a deer with a 50 grn vmax 
or destroy a bunny with an 80 grn ELDM without too much fuss. 

And put 2206, BM, 2208, CFE223, H335, 748 etc behind most of them.

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## RUMPY

Well, thanks @Tahr and everyone else who has contributed to this thread. What a great amount of info in these 8 pages that I have only just discovered.
Really excited as I currently have a 223 in transit that I purchased from @Backsteaks.

----------


## Nathan F

Hmmmm Xmas is coming 

https://choose.sako.fi/global/sako_85/85-carbonlight

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## Chur Bay

Howa mini bro :Cool:

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## TeRei

> The 223 is seriously useful and even more so when suppressed 
> 
> The 60g nbt at 3100 great on rabbits a long way out there and fun on targets to 850 yrds 
> 
> The solid copper boat tail ensures penetration on deer and you often find the projectile under the far side skin or exited. 
> 
> The 55/65g gameking are hammers on deer as well. Often the most fun afternoons are to be had with a Mercator, a few rounds in your pocket and a 223 for company.
> 
> Both of these are 1 in 8 twist
> ...


Whats the glass on the carbo. Nice pic.

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## 7mmsaum

> Whats the glass on the carbo. Nice pic.


It’s a VX3i 3.5-10-40 I had on a Prosport

Nice and light and easy to use on a 223

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## RUMPY

> i bet most of your shots will be anywhere in the eye


Geez @Dusty Fog, between you and @Micky Duck people will start thinking I can hit what I'm aiming at.  :Grin:

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## XR500

With the current shortage of everything, 'efficient AND effective' pretty well sums up the 'ol 223.

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## Tahr

> With the current shortage of everything, 'efficient AND effective' pretty well sums up the 'ol 223.


Yes. And they can consume a big cross section of powders and projectiles which all work pretty well on most things. You can carefully pop a deer with a 50 grn vmax 
or destroy a bunny with an 80 grn ELDM without too much fuss. 

And put 2206, BM, 2208, CFE223, H335, 748 etc behind most of them.

----------

