# Hunting > Game Bird Hunting >  Proposed banning of lead shot in sub gauge shotguns report from Southland

## Mike H

*Sub Gauge Exemption to Lead shot  - a report on the research and consultation completed in the Southland region in late 2012.* 

The Southland Council is considering the final stage in the non-toxic shot transition, removing the exemption that allows the continued use of lead shot to hunt waterfowl in the so-called sub-gauges (.410, 28, 20 & 16 gauges).  While most hunters are now satisfied that steel shot ammunition has improved significantly and accept the need to use it to avoid poisoning waterfowl, others seem to be unaware or unaccepting of the need to stop using toxic lead shot.

The need to change to the use of non-toxic shot was identified by the Minister of Conservation back in 1998, who requested that Fish & Game examine the options.  
As a consequence, Fish & Game conducted research to assess the incidence of lead ingestion in waterfowl and concluded that lead shot ingestion was a significant problem in New Zealand (as had already been documented in many other countries). For example, in Southland 7.5% of mallards sampled had one or more ingested lead pellets. A #4 lead pellet is ground down to a point where it becomes undetectable by x-ray in around 20 days in a gizzard, so that 7.5% represents the proportion of the population that have ingested lead over the preceding 20 days. In science you cant really extrapolate from one 20 day period to an annual figure, because ingestion rates are likely to vary from season to season depending on a whole host of different factors such as water depth, seasonal habitat use, alternate grit availability and seasonal food preferences. 
However, if you did bend the rules so the 7.5% is a bit more meaningful and assumed that every 20 day period had the same ingestion levels, you could divide a year by 20 day periods and multiply it to get an annualised figure of 137% (365/20 x 7.5% = 137%). While not scientifically valid because of the assumed consistent ingestion rate, (and remember it could be higher in summer as water levels in wetlands drop) it does highlight that lead ingestion rates could have an effect at a population level. 

Observation of our rangers and anecdote from industry insiders shows that the use of sub-gauges, primarily in 20 gauge, is becoming increasingly popular with those who wish to continue to use lead shot. Unfortunately, this increase in use will invariably deposit lead shot into our ponds and wetlands where it will continue to poison waterfowl and thereby gradually erode the benefits achieved requiring the change in 12 gauge.

Steel shot loads are commonly used to hunt waterfowl in North America in 20 gauge and some of our Council who have used these loads report that they are surprisingly effective.  

*The consultation process undertaken with hunters of the Southland Region so far, and nationally with other Fish and Game regions.*

Submissions were sought from the public by advertising in the local daily paper.
There were 60 submissions; 57 in favour of retaining lead shot for 20ga shotguns, 2 in favour of removing the exemption and one that was not opposed provided suitable ammunition was available. 

Most of the submissions against the proposal cited the poor performance of steel shot and the cruelty to ducks that it caused. Many believed that there was little evidence for the poisoning of ducks by lead or that the research was poor or not applicable to NZ.

Many claimed that young people, women and the elderly needed to use 20ga shotguns as the recoil using steel, especially in 12 ga was too much.  Some said there was no evidence of more 20ga guns being used.

Those that favoured the change said it was unfair to allow some to use lead and not others, that Fish and Game was being hypocritical allowing the use of lead,  that lead poisoning was a real issue, and that Fish and Game was trying to protect the environment.

There were also 92 (9 received late) submissions on a pre-printed form that stated I am totally opposed to the introduction of STEEL for use in sub gauge shotguns for waterfowl hunting. Many of these were not legible but contained a phone number and address as well as a signature. Most of these contained no extra comment but a few stated that steel was cruel. Lindsay Duncan  (Shooters World, Gore) also sent in a petition containing 559 signatures. The petition had at the top In favour of steel shot and contained 5 columns, for name, address, phone and a tick for yes or no. Four people were in favour and the rest not in favour of steel shot.

We randomly chose 107 legible names and addresses from this petition list and found that 59% were current game licence holders, 24% were not on the database (no game or fish licence of any kind) and 17%  had no current game licence or had a fish licence, either a current one or one in the last 5 years. 

We also surveyed hunters from our hunter database.

125 hunters were selected at random from the licence holder database regarding the use of non-toxic shot in 20ga shotguns. Hunters were phoned by staff and asked the following question. 

Hi I am xxx from Fish and Game.  The council is considering the use of lead shot in 20 & 16 gauge shotguns for the hunting of waterfowl over water. Initially this exemption was allowed because non-toxic alternative ammunition for these smaller gauges was not available, which is no-longer the case.  Non-toxic shot is required when hunting waterfowl within 200m of a water body for 10 and 12 gauge guns, but smaller gauges can use lead. Do you think that this exemption should continue? 

Hunters were also asked  Do you use a 12 ga or a 20 ga shotgun for hunting waterfowl over water, or other

Generally a discussion occurred and staff recorded the responses and an explanation.

63 (50%) hunters favoured a change, 12 (10%) were not sure and  50 (40%) were opposed to a change. 4% of hunters used sub gauge shotguns(5 20ga and 1 16ga). 

The New Zealand Fish and Game Council has considered this matter at its November 24-25, 2012 meeting and has received responses from other regions.  Five regions are in favour of removing the exemption, with six in favour of retaining it and one region is undecided.  The undecided region (Hawkes Bay) wanted more information on the extent of use of sub gauge shotguns. 

Other regions made little comment although some were made;
Northland,  Auckland , Wellington, North Canterbury  - opposed to the change with no explanation
Eastern  - Agree with the change in a split vote (three against) but wanted a transition period.
Taranaki  no proof of more lead shot entering water ways, use of 20ga guns by juniors, females and those with injuries was considered to have merit. Opposed to the change.
Nelson, West Coast, CSI, agreed with the need for a change.  Nelson wanted more data about the number of sub gauge users to support the decision. CSI offered the strongest support with several reasons, similar to the ones proposed by this council for the removal of the exemption.
Otago  opposed to the change, use of 20ga by junior hunters is still a valid reason to retain the exemption, and sub gauge use is still minor. 

A reasonably common theme is that a change would disadvantage young hunters in particular and discourage their participation.  Various members of our Council have promoted maintaining the exemption for junior hunters, recognising the increased recoil associated with using higher velocity steel shot loads.  

At its December 2012 meeting the council considered this report and the written and oral submissions that were presented to it from hunters and the public.

At its February 2013 meeting the Southland Council considered all the evidence and submissions presented and other information they had research themselves and resolved:

That the Southland Council prohibits the use of toxic shot in all sub-gauges, excluding 410g shotguns while hunting waterfowl within 200m of a waterway 3m or more wide and that an exemption be allowed for junior hunters. This will take effect over a three year transition period commencing game bird season 2014/5 by encouraging the voluntary use of non-toxic shot, in 2015/6 by requiring the use of non-toxic shot on public waterways, and in 2016/7 by requiring the use of non-toxic shot within 200m on all waterways over 3m wide. With the proviso that the Southland Council would adopt an alternative transition to ban non-toxic shot in sub-gauges if proposed by the New Zealand Council.

Other fish and game councils will be asked if they would reconsider an amended phase out process based on the above.

Maurice Rodway,  Manager
February 2013

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## R93

FFS! That's the best bit of bullshit seen on here for a while!!
"Councillor's tested steel in 20g and found it effective" Ha Ha Ha 
That is hardly worth a mention when it is them pushing the change.
For one of the largest regions and most likely having the most sub gauges in use only 5 were surveyed??? 
Well done southland F&G !!!

It is unfortunately a personal agenda that has found like minded idiots to support it. 
Southland has the largest bag limits in the country. How about reducing them to protect waterfowl numbers instead of costing some hunters in your region and possibly the rest of country thousands of fucking dollars wasted on sub gauges and associated gear.
Wankers!!!


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## Toby

Why do retards run things and everyone knows they are retarded but they still run the place?

I hope this shit doesn't happen up here.

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## Munsey

The fist bit was utter dribble , and yes that bit councilors tested steel was lame , but I do give them some credit for doing there home work in the phone servey . Which there conclusion was 4% of hunters where using 20 g . Which is fuck all ,so why bother banning the exemption . Would be more informative if they asked those 4 % why they used 20 g , ie frail , youth , woman , or steel hater ? . Just my 2 cents worth . I use 12 g . Oh thanks for posting mike

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## R93

I am happy using 12g steel as well over ponds and tight creeks where there is limited range and pass shooting.
The 20 is for everything else and my boy to learn with. We don't shoot over any shallow water where birds will ingest lead for grit that I know of either. Apart from a couple tidal lagoons you would struggle to find areas like that on the coast.


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## Neckshot

I use twelve g and all my mates use 12 g but some use it so they can shoot lead over ponds its something that i didnt see the point of but each to their own as said.

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## Barefoot

I'm curious to see the complete results for the research. What other things did the ducks have in their gizzards? Steel pellets perhaps?

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## gsp follower

> *Sub Gauge Exemption to Lead shot  - a report on the research and consultation completed in the Southland region in late 2012.* 
> 
> The Southland Council is considering the final stage in the non-toxic shot transition, removing the exemption that allows the continued use of lead shot to hunt waterfowl in the so-called ‘sub-gauges’ (.410, 28, 20 & 16 gauges).  While most hunters are now satisfied that steel shot ammunition has improved significantly and accept the need to use it to avoid poisoning waterfowl, others seem to be unaware or unaccepting of the need to stop using toxic lead shot.
> 
> The need to change to the use of non-toxic shot was identified by the Minister of Conservation back in 1998, who requested that Fish & Game examine the options.  
> As a consequence, Fish & Game conducted research to assess the incidence of lead ingestion in waterfowl and concluded that lead shot ingestion was a significant problem in New Zealand (as had already been documented in many other countries). For example, in Southland 7.5% of mallards sampled had one or more ingested lead pellets. A #4 lead pellet is ground down to a point where it becomes undetectable by x-ray in around 20 days in a gizzard, so that 7.5% represents the proportion of the population that have ingested lead over the preceding 20 days. In science you can’t really extrapolate from one 20 day period to an annual figure, because ingestion rates are likely to vary from season to season depending on a whole host of different factors such as water depth, seasonal habitat use, alternate grit availability and seasonal food preferences. 
> However, if you did bend the rules so the 7.5% is a bit more meaningful and assumed that every 20 day period had the same ingestion levels, you could divide a year by 20 day periods and multiply it to get an annualised figure of 137% (365/20 x 7.5% = 137%). While not scientifically valid because of the assumed consistent ingestion rate, (and remember it could be higher in summer as water levels in wetlands drop) it does highlight that lead ingestion rates could have an effect at a population level. 
> 
> Observation of our rangers and anecdote from industry insiders shows that the use of sub-gauges, primarily in 20 gauge, is becoming increasingly popular with those who wish to continue to use lead shot. Unfortunately, this increase in use will invariably deposit lead shot into our ponds and wetlands where it will continue to poison waterfowl and thereby gradually erode the benefits achieved requiring the change in 12 gauge.
> ...


if you cant dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with bullshit :Grin: nice one mike h
all that aggravation and wasted time and money to find out that it was as the national councill had regulated for :Wtfsmilie: 
man southland voters must be kicking themselves about now :Bouaaaaah:

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## R93

Don't think it's fair giving Mike a hard time he just posted someone's letter from the F&G council.



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## mikee

> Don't think it's fair giving Mike a hard time he just posted someone's letter from the F&G council.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!


I would agree, cant shoot the messenger, at least he had the gusts to actually post it.
, although it may  or may not be his actual view.

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## gsp follower

> Don't think it's fair giving Mike a hard time he just posted someone's letter from the F&G council.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So please forgive my sausage fingers!!!


i would agree if not for the fact that mike h is one of the bans proponents and a southland f&g councillor. but yes good form for posting up the letter

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## R93

Ha Ha didn't know that!
It justifies a few of my opinions tho.


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## Lentil

Thanks Mike H for posting that info.
I have already posted elsewhere on this forum, but I recently read an article in "NZ Guns and Hunting" issue 132 - Sep/Oct 2012, written by Neil Hayes (QSM CEnv), which has some interesting theories on the demise of the North Island mallard. One theory is that the number of wounded ducks has increased under steel shot use, from around 7% to around 50%. That means we shoot a hell of a lot more ducks, before we recover our limit bag - especially those without a dog (and there are heaps of hunters in that boat). Won't take long to thin the mallard stocks when we shoot mostly young breeding birds, now that everyone has flappys out. They are suckers for flappy decoys, and many more are wounded and unrecovered using steel.

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## gsp follower

> Thanks Mike H for posting that info.
> I have already posted elsewhere on this forum, but I recently read an article in "NZ Guns and Hunting" issue 132 - Sep/Oct 2012, written by Neil Hayes (QSM CEnv), which has some interesting theories on the demise of the North Island mallard. One theory is that the number of wounded ducks has increased under steel shot use, from around 7% to around 50%. That means we shoot a hell of a lot more ducks, before we recover our limit bag -
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				 especially those without a dog
> 			
> 		
> ...


i think theyd ha:thum have got more support for making hunters use or have access to a decent gundog :Thumbsup:

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## Toby

I read that too. I agree with it seems to make sense

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## Wirehunt

Yer well, the fucking ducks are a pest issue so come under pest management and I'll smoke fuckers accordingly.  And with whatever I dam well please.

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## kotuku

having personally PM'd Prof: Mike Spray the Massey scientist involved in waterway pollution debate re his thought on this issue;his reply basically was this is a mere pimple on the elephants arse in comparison to "dirty dairying".says a lot about perspective

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## Mike H

KWB, I see you've joined another forum on which to talk your dribble. As said previously to you, if you've got some evidence to the contrary of all the F & G research as well as the overseas based research by all means send it through to our staff down here. I note you didn't in your submission.

Apologies to you guys who are against this decision but I must remind you our role as Councillor's is to manage the sport and ensure there is a resource for the future. To allow lead to continue to be deposited when there is an alternative that 96% of the population are happy to use is not able to be justified. And before anyone mentions wounding rates of steel it is not about that. If you think it is and want to refer to the humane society article on it I suggest you read the section where wounding rates on geese were higher with lead than with steel.

I know I've been as open about this as possible by putting up our meeting minutes the moment this came on the agenda, posting up the advert for submissions, ringing up people who put their name to the submission we received and finally putting the original post here up. I know its not going to gain me votes but I'm here to do the best I can for the sport. I'm not sure the lead users are as passionate as I or the others who have changed our ways to use steel successfully.

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## Toby

Maybe policing waterways may work. I heard storys where a few people shot 200 ducks and more on opening they were bringing back their limit and going back out. That was 2011 last year the season was that shit those same people complained wtf.

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## Mike H

Our rangers are very active down here and we unfortunately have a very high non compliance rate. We're still having guys caught on opening shooting lead through 12 gauges FFS! The only way for them to get around every maimai on opening would be to get more staff and that would mean more money required through increased licence fees. If your aware of people doing what you've said above I'd suggest a discreet word to F & G and they might just watch that spot next year.

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## Toby

Dont neet to be rising fees. Shhhh keep that idea out of the idea bucket

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## Wirehunt

FFS.  And the lead in the water does what Mike, sweet fuck all.   Go read the water reports on the Taieri and do something about that.  Money much better spent, and not just my opinion but fact.  Technically it's been years since the water has been clean enough to even swim in.  What is f&g doing about that?

Then there is the stupid ponds at the top of Henley.  Visa ad those fuckers.

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## Mike H

Wirehunt, you possibly have missed the last 10 years of lobbying by F & G about waterways which are the responsibility of regional councils. Everyone knows of the term dirty dairying, that was because of F & G's awareness campaign. They can lobby councils and raise awareness but they're prevented from directly taking action as the law doesn't allow it. True lead in water does F all while its sitting there, its when ducks pick it up while seiving for grit that it becomes an issue. They collect it in their gizzards, grind it up with the small stones they use to break down their food and either die or become infertile.

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## R93

The trouble with you types that are in F&G or any governing body for that matter Mike, is you think your position comes with a sudden onslaught of intelligence and knowledge. 
Who the fuck are you to say people against the ban dont care about our sport? 
That is however, the typical attitude of people in your position. You think you are better, because of your position, than the people you are supposed to be helping.

Lead has been used for over a 100yrs in NZ and yet for some reason duck numbers in some regions are lower than they ever have been, and thats just since the ban. I would suggest F&G efforts would be better finding out why that is, instead of making changes that will see no immediate results.
I am pretty sure I have held a game and fishing licence every year since 81' 
If I seen undisputed evidence provided over time and not taken from another country that lead use was killing a higher % of waterfowl than other issues we have in this country I would happily use steel. Period.
I personally do not think the lead ban has any merritt in all of NZ especially where I hunt, due to the lack of dabbling water and the number of floods. But what the fuck do I know, I am just a dumb cunt that buys a licence every year to keep some all knowing F&G idiots in a job.

My point being, there is plenty more things immediately reducing our waterfowl numbers that to me, need to be sorted before any reduction of bird numbers can be studied properly and attributed to lead

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## Barefoot

Mike H
During the research was any steel shot found in the gizzards of ducks?
Also what were the number of ducks autopsied and how many different areas and distance between them.
Is the raw data available to the public to have analysed by a third party?

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## Mike H

If someone can explain to me how to upload a document I can put up the paper from when the initial research was done. I can't find it on a website to put up a link.

R93, chill bro. People may care but they are hypocritical and ignorant to the facts if they think its okay to feed lead to ducks. We have dabbling water everywhere in this country. Ducks need it to gather and seive grit. They don't get it from paddocks.

I'm not an expert just because I'm on the Council. We have staff that are who present the info to us. Because you don't attend meetings and hear and see it your unfortunately not privy to it all. We make our decisions based off of that.

Have you ever read any of the available material when you say you've seen no evidence?

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## R93

I just cant be fucked anymore. Do what ya's want, ya will anyway. 
If this ban comes into the coast and I see it happening I will never buy another licence and just shoot sporting clays because shooting decoying ducks is to me is as boring as DTL, but easier. 
I cant be ass'ed funding a body that is happy too or does not even consider it has cost me large sums of money by their over zealous decisions.
I have no doubt lead is toxic to ducks. So I must be ignorant. Rusty steel pellets must be ingested by ducks for grit. It will not wear down like lead. Where are the toxicity results on that Mike?
But it is a percentage thing. The % of fowl reduction compared to other issues is minute. Starvation kills more ducks than hunters do IMO.

I have in my time attended a few meetings and frankly, wished I spent the time, listening to an hour of Jim Careys most annoying sound in the world.

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## jakewire

Mick H, I respect the time and the effort you put in to what is obviously a passionate cause for you. However if you honestly think that 96% of duck shooters up our way use steel shot for shooting ducks then, I truely don't know what to say to you.

Check sales man, do you really think all that lead bought in April is going to be used on clays.

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## Mike H

Are you talking 12 or 20 gauge?

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## R93

> Are you talking 12 or 20 gauge?


I would have thought it was obvious that he is talking 12g :Grin:

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## jakewire

Correct.

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## Mike H

Thats a worry then, their time will come.

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## kotuku

by the way mike H-you owe KWB an apology mr  wiseguy !This aint him ,and you know theres ample evidence to the contrary as well.but since youre mentioning KWB-its a case of tale wagging dog ,and as you can see southland F&Gpopularity is about as popular as dogcrap on the wifes new shoes.just setting out a few facts ,nothing personal ,its business.

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## Neckshot

Chuckling like a feeding hen with words rumbling around the large empty parts of my brain like...........toothless tigers and need more popcorn.

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## jakewire

> Thats a worry then, their time will come.


Fine Mike, then they will just stop shooting. It's as simple as that.
It's getting to damned expensive for a family man anyway.

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## Pointer

> Our rangers are very active down here and we unfortunately have a very high non compliance rate. *We're still having guys caught on opening shooting lead through 12 gauges FFS!*


You'd have a heart attack in Gizzy mate. Fuck steel

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## Mike H

> by the way mike H-you owe KWB an apology mr  wiseguy !This aint him ,and you know theres ample evidence to the contrary as well.but since youre mentioning KWB-its a case of tale wagging dog ,and as you can see southland F&Gpopularity is about as popular as dogcrap on the wifes new shoes.just setting out a few facts ,nothing personal ,its business.


Sorry to KWB, its the other one, Tube  :Have A Nice Day: 

I haven't seen anyone from Southland have a go at us yet , just the usual suspects from other regions  :Wink: 

And no I don't know that there is ample evidence to the contrary so would be delighted if you could share it please  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Mike H

> Fine Mike, then they will just stop shooting. It's as simple as that.
> It's getting to damned expensive for a family man anyway.


Why will they stop? The performance in their minds of steel or the price of it?

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## Pointer

> I haven't seen anyone from Southland have a go at us yet , just the usual suspects from other regions


Thats because Southland still has the duck numbers, give it a few seasons  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Mike H

Thats why we're taking measures now Pointer, we've seen the results in other areas of waiting too long. While it may not be popular its for the ducks that we're doing this. Like most regions we've been declining for 20 years (before steel shot).

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## kotuku

> Sorry to KWB, its the other one, Tube 
> 
> I haven't seen anyone from Southland have a go at us yet , just the usual suspects from other regions 
> 
> And no I don't know that there is ample evidence to the contrary so would be delighted if you could share it please


 absolute and utter piffle -its well documented on the other side -go read! BTWthe tone of your other posting is a trifle grandiose.

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## Pointer

> Thats why we're taking measures now Pointer, we've seen the results in other areas of waiting too long. While it may not be popular its for the ducks that we're doing this. Like most regions we've been declining for 20 years (before steel shot).


Can you honestly say that? That you are taking these measures for the game animals? for the sport? You mention decline before steel, so doesn't that tell you something?

Give it time, you will see what you are doing is short sighted.

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## Mike H

If by the other side you mean FNH theres no documentation there. Put up a link please if you can.

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## Mike H

> Can you honestly say that? That you are taking these measures for the game animals? for the sport? You mention decline before steel, so doesn't that tell you something?
> 
> Give it time, you will see what you are doing is short sighted.


Yes it does Pointer. Because of that Southland put up a proposal for a national research program around mallards. We proposed to put up $100k each year for three years if matched by some other councils. Guess what, none did. We decided we needed to do it anyway and as we speak a national program(albeit short of funds) is underway. Lead is a problem and we all know that thats why we aren't going against the research we've proposed by making this change. Hopefully the research will find out some of the other issues. We're prepared to accept whatever the findings of it are.

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## crzyman

I cant believe your all arguing with another brain washed f&g muppet

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## Mike H

I'll leave you guys to your caveman ways I think. In the meantime as I've demonstrated what we're doing, why don't you ask what your own councils are doing about the decline, you know what we're doing, its better than sitting on the fence taking licence money and watching a decline. I look forward to seeing what you come back with as far as what they're doing  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Pointer

> Yes it does Pointer. Because of that Southland put up a proposal for a national research program around mallards. We proposed to put up $100k each year for three years if matched by some other councils. Guess what, none did. We decided we needed to do it anyway and as we speak a national program(albeit short of funds) is underway. Lead is a problem and we all know that thats why we aren't going against the research we've proposed by making this change. Hopefully the research will find out some of the other issues. We're prepared to accept whatever the findings of it are.


How many years do you have left on the planet Mike H?  I bet you have a few years on me. I can't help but feel, that my generation of shooters will have to come behind you and your friends adgendas and clean up this god awful circus

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## Pointer

> why don't you ask what your own councils are doing about the decline, you know what we're doing, its better than sitting on the fence taking licence money and watching a decline.


Have you asked what shooters in my area are doing? You probably don't care

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## R93

Your between a rock and a hard place Mike. But good on ya for being here, weathering the storm sort of speak, seriously. You are never likely to change your mind on this issue and neither are most of us.
But you have too see that this forum and the other for that matter  has only has a small % of people that are into the sport yet most of the people that have posted on the subject are upset at what is proposed by F&G ref sub-gauges.
Do you think its fair to say this small % people is a fair indication of the overall feeling towards the issue? Therefore making the claimed research of F&G southland around the issue a bit weak.
My only problem with F&G is on this issue. I know there are more serious reasons for waterfowl decline in some regions than any type of shot used. 

I otherwise feel that F&G try to do whats best for the stakeholders. I have heard more about F&G West Coast in the last couple of years than I ever have since changing from the society. They are very active in our community and are even trying to get younger shooters into the sport by providing free clays, ammo and coaches at a couple gun clubs in our area. For some reason interest is low but they have to be commended for their efforts. I know one of the blokes personally and he is a keen hunter fisherman along with being a good bugger. I think he is the reason I am hearing so many good things lately about their efforts.

On the subject of steel performance compared to lead. Do you really think it is in everyones mind? Please dont dribble on about being better hunters and choosing your shots. Its old. Anyone can set up a reasonable spread and call ducks into 40 yrds.

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## R93

> Thats why we're taking measures now Pointer, we've seen the results in other areas of waiting too long. While it may not be popular its for the ducks that we're doing this. Like most regions we've been declining for 20 years (before steel shot).



FFS! All of a sudden too! What happened for the other 80 yrs when lead was used?

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## Pointer

> My only problem with F&G is on this issue. I know there are more serious reasons for waterfowl decline in some regions than any type of shot used.


Bingo. Address these issues Mike H if you want a place in history as a guy who did the right thing.

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## gadgetman

> Sorry to KWB, its the other one, Tube 
> 
> I haven't seen anyone from Southland have a go at us yet , just the usual suspects from other regions 
> 
> And no I don't know that there is ample evidence to the contrary so would be delighted if you could share it please


The writing style of kotuku is nothing like that of kWB or Tube. But I must say that the majority of what KWB has said is quite valid.

1. You asked for submissions which by what you have posted you have ignored if they don't fit what you want.
2. The statistics that you posted show that the %of shooters using the sub gauges is really insignificant. We should now be looking at 5% of 7.5% of birds currently affected, if 12 gauge shooters are using steel and the sub gauges effect is analysed. 
3. What is obvious is that you predetermined the outcome. This is not due process and quite frankly you should be ashamed of yourselves for not following due process.
4. If you want the people you are supposed to be representing to submit responses to back your view then you need to educate them and provide proof. 
5. The change that you have made is against previous reassurances that have been given to hunters.

These points you have not addressed in the slightest.

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## jakewire

> Why will they stop? The performance in their minds of steel or the price of it?


No you don't get it do you
Licence, desiel./petrol, shot.etc
people see steel as not as effective, have to pay more, fishing licence costs 115$ , nah fuckit.
I have several people my age , even less, that have just basically given up
they can no longer afford it.

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## Mike H

On the subject of steel R93 I can honestly say I have no problem with it. I use a wad wizard choke which I believe helps and am a reasonable shot I feel which helps also. 

What isn't known amongst the people on either forum is that like several of my fellow councillors I have access to a 20 gauge(my wife's). I took it out on the Sunday of opening weekend last year and using 3" 1 1/8 ounce of lead fives didn't find it killed ducks any better than the Remington 3" 1 1/4 ounce of steel 3s I was using the day before. 

I'm not sure what people think we're trying to do here? We are hunters like you who want to do more for the sport based on the facts put in front of us. So far for the last 6 months that this debate has gone on down here the only thing people keep raising is the wounding rate of steel. It is not an issue with me, the guys I hunt with or any of the other councillors. 

Some of us on the council shoot ducks in paddocks with lead. We get a similar ratio of wounded ducks with that. It is not the be all and end all magic bullet. Some people have had such a bad experience from when the first cheap shitty loads of steel came into the country that they've forgotten we wounded ducks before that with lead IMO.

----------


## jakewire

> I cant believe your all arguing with another brain washed f&g muppet


And we are not arguing, we are having a free and frank discussion, sometimes. :Have A Nice Day:

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## Mike H

> FFS! All of a sudden too! What happened for the other 80 yrs when lead was used?


We have no idea because no one counted ducks like they do now. The counts only go back 20 years sorry.

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## R93

> No you don't get it do you
> Licence, desiel./petrol, shot.etc
> people see steel as not as effective, have to pay more, fishing licence costs 115$ , nah fuckit.
> I have several people my age , even less, that have just basically given up
> they can no longer afford it.



Thats pretty sad having to give up something you enjoy because of cost. I dont see it stopping either. There will be a lot more giving up.

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## Pointer

> *I'm not sure what people think we're trying to do here*? We are hunters like you who want to do more for the sport based on the facts put in front of us. So far for the last 6 months that this debate has gone on down here the only thing people keep raising is the wounding rate of steel. It is not an issue with me, the guys I hunt with or any of the other councillors


What are you trying to do here?

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## Mike H

Remove a scientifically proven poison from duck habitat for the benefit of the duck. That is all.

Why do you think we're doing it?

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## Pointer

I actually don't know why you are doing it. We have shot in greater volume with lead for the last century. Something tells me the declining numbers aren't lead related...

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## Mike H

> The writing style of kotuku is nothing like that of kWB or Tube. But I must say that the majority of what KWB has said is quite valid.
> 
> 1. You asked for submissions which by what you have posted you have ignored if they don't fit what you want.
> 2. The statistics that you posted show that the %of shooters using the sub gauges is really insignificant. We should now be looking at 5% of 7.5% of birds currently affected, if 12 gauge shooters are using steel and the sub gauges effect is analysed. 
> 3. What is obvious is that you predetermined the outcome. This is not due process and quite frankly you should be ashamed of yourselves for not following due process.
> 4. If you want the people you are supposed to be representing to submit responses to back your view then you need to educate them and provide proof. 
> 5. The change that you have made is against previous reassurances that have been given to hunters.
> 
> These points you have not addressed in the slightest.


1. None of the submissions provided any reason for adults to continue with lead. Juniors were exempted as a result of the submissions received.

2. I'm a little suspect about how honest people may have been about their 20 gauge use given they knew why they were being asked. Judging by the uproar however its clear there is a significant number of people affected by this and they aren't the junior hunters who need it (if you read the submissions).

3. I have been open in all my posts prior to the decision that my mind was not made up. I went out of my way to let everyone know about the process and how to submit. Had people provided good reason to continue with lead I would have gone along with that.

4. We sent out quite a lot of information to those who signalled an interest in it. Lets be clear however, the oath of office which we sign as a councillor is not to represent hunters, it is about sports fish and gamebird management and the best things for that.

5. Southland F & G have never made any assurances about the continuation of 20 gauge use.

----------


## R93

> On the subject of steel R93 I can honestly say I have no problem with it. I use a wad wizard choke which I believe helps and am a reasonable shot I feel which helps also. 
> 
> What isn't known amongst the people on either forum is that like several of my fellow councillors I have access to a 20 gauge(my wife's). I took it out on the Sunday of opening weekend last year and using 3" 1 1/8 ounce of lead fives didn't find it killed ducks any better than the Remington 3" 1 1/4 ounce of steel 3s I was using the day before. 
> 
> I'm not sure what people think we're trying to do here? We are hunters like you who want to do more for the sport based on the facts put in front of us. So far for the last 6 months that this debate has gone on down here the only thing people keep raising is the wounding rate of steel. It is not an issue with me, the guys I hunt with or any of the other councillors. 
> 
> Some of us on the council shoot ducks in paddocks with lead. We get a similar ratio of wounded ducks with that. It is not the be all and end all magic bullet. Some people have had such a bad experience from when the first cheap shitty loads of steel came into the country that they've forgotten we wounded ducks before that with lead IMO.



Fuck it, I will say it, I am, when seasoned, well above reasonable with a shotgun. However since going too steel I have had too fire so many more follow up shots than I have had too, with lead. This is also evident in my birds in hand to shots fired ratio. 
I fired on average another 15-20 rounds to get my limits on opening compared to years previous using lead. I always take the same amount of ammo when I go out, and for interest sake count whats left compared to whats shot. I get sick of seeing a ball of feathers and the fuckers struggling away. I have an decent clay machine and practice with steel loads. I break the same amount of targets I would expect with lead.
I do agree lead is not magic, but it is way more effective in my experience. 
I must get one of these magic chokes? A restriction in the muzzle that will make my steel shot more effective as it leaves the wad?  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Mike H

Wad Wizard Choke Tubes - Shotgun Choke Tube System  :Have A Nice Day: 

Patterns beautifully, not sure about the whole shot stringing theory however  :Wink:

----------


## R93

> Wad Wizard Choke Tubes - Shotgun Choke Tube System 
> 
> Patterns beautifully, not sure about the whole shot stringing theory however


I think you will find that a decent shot string is relied upon more than most people realise to hit flying targets. Some of the best shotgunners in the world use it to great effect.

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## gadgetman

> 1. None of the submissions provided any reason for adults to continue with lead. Juniors were exempted as a result of the submissions received.
> 
> 2. I'm a little suspect about how honest people may have been about their 20 gauge use given they knew why they were being asked. Judging by the uproar however its clear there is a significant number of people affected by this and they aren't the junior hunters who need it (if you read the submissions).


From what I have seen around here I would say they are likely fairly accurate.




> 3. I have been open in all my posts prior to the decision that my mind was not made up. I went out of my way to let everyone know about the process and how to submit. Had people provided good reason to continue with lead I would have gone along with that.


Maybe just that they have not been convinced with the information they have received? Should something like the treaty of Waitangi be considered invalid if anyone who signed it did not also write their reasons for doing so? I do see your point though, you are looking for reasoning not postal votes.





> 4. We sent out quite a lot of information to those who signalled an interest in it. Lets be clear however, the oath of office which we sign as a councillor is not to represent hunters, it is about sports fish and gamebird management and the best things for that.


But without hunters they are not game.  :Wink:  Geese are by all means game and hunted, even if they are on a different schedule now.





> 5. Southland F & G have never made any assurances about the continuation of 20 gauge use.


But your national body has.


Note: I'm fairly new to game bird hunting and have not known anything other than steel. As such I am happy enough with it and know reasonably well it's and my limitations; too much Scottish blood and respect for the game for low percentage shots.

I have not seen your research but would be very interested in seeing it. Gut feeling is that if lead was responsible for low bird numbers then going by the period 12 gauge non toxic shot has been used and the life expectancy of the quarry that there should be a noticeable increase in population happening by. If this is not the case then the deaths due to lead as a toxin is likely insignificant. This would indicate that more research is needed to find out what the significant factors are.

Another point I'm interested in is the build up of shot in the environment that the ducks access. Just reasoning here, as I'm no expert, but these dabbling areas where the birds collect grit I would presume would tend to have more of a flow rather than slower/still water with a muddy bottom. The agitation provided by the flowing water I would have thought likely to cause the lead shot to drop through the stones, and the stuff that falls on a muddy bottom would tend to sink through the mud naturally anyway.

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## gsp follower

> KWB, I see you've joined another forum on which to talk your dribble. As said previously to you, if you've got some evidence to the contrary of all the F & G research as well as the overseas based research by all means send it through to our staff down here. I note you didn't in your submission.
> 
> Apologies to you guys who are against this decision but I must remind you our role as Councillor's is to manage the sport and ensure there is a resource for the future. To allow lead to continue to be deposited when there is an alternative that 96% of the population are happy to use is not able to be justified. And before anyone mentions wounding rates of steel it is not about that. If you think it is and want to refer to the humane society article on it I suggest you read the section where wounding rates on geese were higher with lead than with steel.
> 
> I know I've been as open about this as possible by putting up our meeting minutes the moment this came on the agenda, posting up the advert for submissions, ringing up people who put their name to the submission we received and finally putting the original post here up. I know its not going to gain me votes but I'm here to do the best I can for the sport. I'm not sure the lead users are as passionate as I or the others who have changed our ways to use steel successfully.


evidence thats a laugh coming from your neck of the woods mr4%

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## gsp follower

> If someone can explain to me how to upload a document I can put up the paper from when the initial research was done. I can't find it on a website to put up a link.
> 
> R93, chill bro. People may care but they are hypocritical and ignorant to the facts if they think its okay to feed lead to ducks. We have dabbling water everywhere in this country. Ducks need it to gather and seive grit. They don't get it from paddocks.
> 
> I'm not an expert just because I'm on the Council. We have staff that are who present the info to us. Because you don't attend meetings and hear and see it your unfortunately not privy to it all. We make our decisions based off of that.
> 
> Have you ever read any of the available material when you say you've seen no evidence?


hardcase when feeding leads shot to ducks was exactly what the aw researcher did
but dont reality ruin your overemotive arguement :Thumbsup:

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## gsp follower

> 1. None of the submissions provided any reason for adults to continue with lead. Juniors were exempted as a result of the submissions received.
> 
> 2. I'm a little suspect about how honest people may have been about their 20 gauge use given they knew why they were being asked. Judging by the uproar however its clear there is a significant number of people affected by this and they aren't the junior hunters who need it (if you read the submissions).
> 
> 3. I have been open in all my posts prior to the decision that my mind was not made up. I went out of my way to let everyone know about the process and how to submit. Had people provided good reason to continue with lead I would have gone along with that.
> 
> 4. We sent out quite a lot of information to those who signalled an interest in it. Lets be clear however, the oath of office which we sign as a councillor is not to represent hunters, it is about sports fish and gamebird management and the best things for that.
> 
> 5. Southland F & G have never made any assurances about the continuation of 20 gauge use.


but all the people supporting your position are a 100% above reproach huh :Grin:  :Wtfsmilie:

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## kotuku

mike ,in a similar vein to when JC was presented before Herod for judgement,I sense one of the thoughts going through your head is"this aint lookin too flash bro"".

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## gadgetman

> Sorry to KWB, its the other one, Tube


I stand corrected. I can see my good mates writing coming through.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Mike H

> evidence thats a laugh coming from your neck of the woods mr4%


Shooters wound ducks, not the shot itself. Shooters wounded ducks with lead also. If your wounding more now your doing something wrong. This can be changed, its up to the shooter.

Regardless of shooter technique, lead poisons the ducks that ingest it through picking it up as grit. Shooters can't change this. 

If you can put up the evidence to the contrary please do because as yet no one has put any up just as no one did this in their submissions.

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## Toby

How many ducks were found poisoned by lead?

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## Mike H

Toby, I don't have the numbers but if your suggesting its a fallacy then perhaps you should write to the minister and ask for 12 gauge lead to be reintroduced? 

Not one country in the world has gone back to it as it is proven. Find me one link to a single bit of published research which scientifically disproves this please. Alternatively do a google search of lead shot poisoning and let me know how many of the articles published you can disprove. Through this you'll find the mortality rates of ducks with ingested lead.

Like it or not we as Councillors cannot make regulations based on sub gauge hunter opinion, we need evidence and no one has put that up yet to support lead shot over water. The science backs it up as bad for our ducks and its there for you to see if you take the time to google.

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## gadgetman

> Toby, I don't have the numbers but if your suggesting its a fallacy then perhaps you should write to the minister and ask for 12 gauge lead to be reintroduced? 
> 
> Not one country in the world has gone back to it as it is proven. Find me one link to a single bit of published research which scientifically disproves this please. Alternatively do a google search of lead shot poisoning and let me know how many of the articles published you can disprove. Through this you'll find the mortality rates of ducks with ingested lead.
> 
> Like it or not we as Councillors cannot make regulations based on sub gauge hunter opinion, we need evidence and no one has put that up yet to support lead shot over water. The science backs it up as bad for our ducks and its there for you to see if you take the time to google.


Likewise I have not seen you post anything showing current NZ duck mortality rates due to lead poisoning. And by that I don't mean some hand waving summary. I mean a proper study with methods, analysis, results, etc.

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## Mike H

Gadgetman, there is no need to. You and others on here know this was done by F & G in the late 90's when the issue was first raised by the anti-duck hunting lobby. If you think this wasn't the case then do as I suggested to Toby and convince the minister we should be the first country in the world to bring lead back. Show the minister how our mallards are so different to every other mallard in the world.

I take it you'll be soon lobbying the CSI region with your evidence as you'll recall from the first post that they supported us when we put it out for discussion when there was no mention of an exemption for juniors?

Some on here are a bit like the smokers who fought against banning smoking in the workplace or pubs because they didn't believe it could affect non smokers.......

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## Toby

Has F&G done any count or research on ducks in nz found dead caused by eating lead pellets?

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## Wirehunt

I recall hearing some states in the US have in fact gone back to lead.

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## Mike H

> Has F&G done any count or research on ducks in nz found dead caused by eating lead pellets?


How's this? This is from the lengthy F & G paper produced at the time of the changeover. I suggest for the full report you contact you local office and ask for it. Alternatively PM me your email address and I can email it to anyone that wants the whole thing.

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## Mike H

> I recall hearing some states in the US have in fact gone back to lead.


Wirehunt, in many places the ban is for all game bird hunting. One state apparently has reverted back to lead in forested areas for hunting pheasants, not waterfowl, due to the issue with steel shot in trees which are to be milled.

No one anywhere has changed back for hunting waterfowl.

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## veitnamcam

Is this scientific evidence anything like the 1080 "scientific evidence" ?

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## gadgetman

> Gadgetman, there is no need to. You and others on here know this was done by F & G in the late 90's when the issue was first raised by the anti-duck hunting lobby. If you think this wasn't the case then do as I suggested to Toby and convince the minister we should be the first country in the world to bring lead back. Show the minister how our mallards are so different to every other mallard in the world.


So the lead ban for 12g & 10g was in place for several years prior to these studies in the 90's so that they show the significance of lead shot from sub gauges? Then post up these study details please, along with the even earlier study details from before the big gauge bans were brought in, as requested above. If this is not the case then research *IS* required. You simply cannot say that lead from these sub gauges is a significant issue unless you actually investigate it. If the only research you have is summarised in your earlier post then the expected significance would be 4% of 7.5% = 0.3% by *YOUR* numbers. You guys are the ones enforcing the changes, please feel free to demonstrate to those you serve that there is a significant issue here. Hell these sub gauge guys have some nerve picking on the 0.3% of breeding birds in the population!

An analogy for you. Would you accept a speeding ticket for being 5km/h over the speed limit from someone who was standing on a street corner without a means of determining your speed? I'd very much doubt it.

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## Mike H

Gadgetman, I don't intend to keep going on with a tit for tat like your so keen on. It doesn't matter what I say you'll not believe it. 

Like I said if you feel its wrong write to the minister, we've been through the due process and accepted lead is a toxin to our birds. 

Our decision was made at the last meeting and only applies to our region. If you want to make an effort to stop it happening in your area then I suggest you write to your Council who look like they may support us in this. I suggest you might also like to stand in your region at the next election and make it your promise that you'll fight to be a world leader in the reintroduction of lead. 

Let me know if you don't appreciate me keeping you guys up to date with whats happening before, during and after a decision is made with our Council and I'll ensure I don't post again on any of it.

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## Wirehunt

If it happens in my area that will be the last legal duck I will ever shoot.

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## R93

I for one, do not agree with this issue. But I appreciate the heads up, thats for sure.

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## gadgetman

Mike H, I am not going tit for tat. You have simply failed to convince anyone that there is an issue with the limited amount of lead that should be used on waterfowl. All you have said in reality is:

1. That the very vast majority of the submissions were against the change.
2. The studies that you have quoted are out of date and do not represent current lead usage.
3. In the absence of current figures you have used the old figures but not extrapolated the results to gauge estimated current effects.
4. Since you cannot produce any relevant information back your stance simply stated, "I'm here and get to vote."

Frankly your councils approach is so deeply flawed it's farcical.

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## gsp follower

> If you want to make an effort to stop it happening in your area then I suggest you write to your Council who look like they may support us in this.


dont believe nth canterbury did support you without evidence  :Wtfsmilie: 




> Let me know if you don't appreciate me keeping you guys up to date with whats happening before, during and after a decision is made with our Council and I'll ensure I don't post again on any of it.


when you ignore our submissions and opinions to the point you have you might as well.christ you hardly gave your own voters 3 weeks.[by the way what date was that paper the notice re submissions was in]
be nice if you consulted southland licence buyers  first not last.  after the fact you already had the decision in your pocket. do you really expect us to believe you didnt canvass support on the councill before the decision was made??.

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## scottrods

Most of Germany and some of Hungary banned lead in rifle bullets now too. RWS have developed an effective lead free replacement.

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## Lentil

_Let me know if you don't appreciate me keeping you guys up to date with whats happening before, during and after a decision is made with our Council and I'll ensure I don't post again on any of it._

I guess most of us appreciate you posting this info - I certainly do. But you must remember that by doing so, you have made yourself the face of F&G on this forum. As most of us do not write letters to F&G, we have suddenly found an outlet for our frustrations - you.
Comments are usually not directed at you personally, but I feel you should take note of comments posted. After all, you were elected to serve us in the management of fish and game.

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## mikee

> _Let me know if you don't appreciate me keeping you guys up to date with whats happening before, during and after a decision is made with our Council and I'll ensure I don't post again on any of it._
> 
> I guess most of us appreciate you posting this info - I certainly do. But you must remember that by doing so, you have made yourself the face of F&G on this forum. As most of us do not write letters to F&G, we have suddenly found an outlet for our frustrations - you.
> Comments are usually not directed at you personally, but I feel you should take note of comments posted. After all, you were elected to serve us in the management of fish and game.


Exactly, nothing personal but you shouldn't get all righteous when you ask license holders for there submissions and then do the opposite. To those of us on the outside it "appears" like you only asked for submissions to make it l*ook like* you were following procedure when your minds were already made up. 

If a ban on lead is whats needed then do it nationwide in one go and when viable alternatives are actually available *AND cost effective*. And have good science to back it up not adhoc 10 year old research of dubious origin.  Be prepared to find your licence revenue declining though.  

I would note the latest H&F I have just received has exactly no sub-gauge non toxic ammo listed, (at least I can't find any). 
If you don't like /can't use steel in your 12g gun then you a stuck with  single product, *Fiocchi Tundra 36gm 2 3/4 @ $39.99 for 10 shots.* I would be giving up and going back to shooting clays only (with lead)

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## Happy

Suppose thanks for the heads up. Don't try to be one of the boys though cos you ain't 
Your private agenda is hard to understand We don't agree with your policy .we don't agree with your outdated facts . I have a plan boys $5 a week in the  kitty I guarantee it buys you a gate person who using your walkie gives a nudge as to unexpected carrot peeling hippies arriving for the whole opening weekend cos I honestly reckon we could be pushed that far
Seems some of us orbit the earth and the rest orbit some other place I think it's called Uranus .maybe you prove us wrong next year and there's millions new ducks or maybe then you tell us no boys it ll take 20 years to get back. Yeah Right

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## Toby

What would happen if we missed a season? like just one season I would imagine a lot of un-shot ducks should rise the population up a bit. Although if F&G were doing anything constructive the population shouldn't have really dropped. This is my last year on a kid licence I think so gonna see how duck shooting looks next year to if I spend the whole adult fee to shoot fuck all. You dont need a licence on your own property right? so could always just shoot my maize paddock anyway.

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## Pointer

Seen it in Aussie Toby, been a few seasons dropped or cut drastically short in the last decade. Gotta do what ya gotta do

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## kotuku

It appears our mike has slid back into the shrek type F&Gcavern in invergigill to lick his wounds after everything bar the kitchen sink was thrown at him.
   Mike,you there Mike- email prof Mike Spray at massey university re evidence to back your"noble gesture". 
His reply to my email  briefly  was compared to the environmental disater of dirty dairying ,this lead issue was like a pimple on an elephants ass ,a minute one at that.that is the impending disaster theyre trying to resolve,. from what ive witnessed from another "southland" seminarspeaker ,lush dairy paddocks are a favourite haunt of your duckshooting buddies.
    furthermore would you be polite enough to answer the outstanding issues still posed on this forum.

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## gsp follower

> What would happen if we missed a season? like just one season I would imagine a lot of un-shot ducks should rise the population up a bit. Although if F&G were doing anything constructive the population shouldn't have really dropped. This is my last year on a kid licence I think so gonna see how duck shooting looks next year to if I spend the whole adult fee to shoot fuck all. You dont need a licence on your own property right? so could always just shoot my maize paddock anyway.


nothings certain unfortunatly tobyi would hope so but by the time desease and hunger kicked in we could be worse of if the extra birds became spreaders of botulism or salmonella.
the one bright light is the major research program f&g are doing according to the latest h&f catalogue

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## mikee

I am not closed minded. 
I will be the first to retire my 20 and 28g if you can show me recent and RELEVANT and Balanced  scientific studies supporting the argument and change to the rules. 

NOT Studies where the outcome is not decided first then supporting evidence gathered to support that outcome. But truly independent with unbiased  researcher(s).

I am more than prepared to *publicly* admit I am wrong should it be so proved that Sub Gauges are one of the major reasons for the decline in duck populations

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## john m

I will retire my 16 ga also

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## gsp follower

> I am more than prepared to publicly admit I am wrong should it be so proved that Sub Gauges are one of the major reasons for the decline in duck populations


your pretty safe there mikee
i dont think even the proponents of the change would even say that.
this is just a sideshow to test thier power to influence the national body and their supporters in other regions :Yuush: 
the end game is yet to be revealed but there is more a foot than just this proposed change i,l bet my left testicle on it. :Pissed Off:

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## gsp follower

please register your distaste over southlands actions with the national councill as it appears they still may have the final say before southlands changes go before the minister



> nzcouncil@fishandgame.org.nz

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## Kiwi-Hunter

Its going to turn into a bigger problem if we don't vote in the next fish&game election and get these members off the broad. Fred Inder along with Stephen Brown voted that Southland stay using lead shot in sub gauge till it became a National vote. They cannot leave things alone. They have not listened to the licence holders which puts this in their own agenda and breaks what they stand for to represent US the Licence holders on our behalf  .Well we can all flog this I didnt vote and didnt know about it either. But they have my attention now the BASTARDS.
In the USA they have taken the lead shot on waterfoul away then its lead shot on game birds. Then all game we have used steel shot on rabbits: :Pissed Off:  don't go there :XD:  :XD:  :Pissed Off: 
But I see that this bit of information on California which is below is how it may go in ten years or less.
Is this what Rodway was meaning by our credibility ( Fish & Game) *who's credibility* is all green machine anti gun, corporate Dollars. I think. FAT CATS
Here are the minutes and the page for more info
Local Council Downloads | Southland
http://southland.fishandgame.org.nz/...ary%202013.pdf
February 21, 2013
Lead Ammo: Animal Groups Push for Blanket Ban in California :Pissed Off: 
By Chad Love
California hunters  who already must hunt with lead-free ammo across the range (NO WATER HERE)of the California condor  are now facing a new push *to ban all lead hunting ammunition statewide*.
From this story on mercurynews.com:
Fresh off a wave of success in the state Capitol last year, animal welfare groups are taking aim at a new target this year: hunting with lead ammunition. The Humane Society, Audubon California and Defenders of Wildlife are behind a major push to make California the first state to ban lead ammunition for all types of hunting, setting the stage for a showdown with some hunters and adding another layer to the heated gun control debate. The state already bans lead ammunition for hunters in the range of the endangered California condor, but environmentalists say a statewide ban is needed because overwhelming scientific evidence shows condors, bald eagles and other birds are still dying from lead poisoning when they eat dead deer and other animals shot by hunters.

Thoughts? Reaction? What do you think, California hunters? Is this inevitable, or a winnable fight?

from Dann wrote 1 week 1 day ago 
This Californian hunter thinks they have a better than reasonable chance. HSUS has been making inroads into the Fish and Wildlife over the last several years. They donated money for the CALTIP poacher hotline, donated money for K-9 dogs and successfully gotten the name changed from Fish and Game to Fish and Wildlife.
Big money talks, I guess. I've written to the Commission asking for a refund on my lifetime license and threatened to hunt AZ where they know how to run a condor program without punishing hunters.

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## gsp follower

> Hi Kevin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Southland Fish and Game has announced at its February 2013 meeting to require the use of nontoxic shot for all waterfowl hunting over water, with a three year transition, but excluding junior hunters and 410 shotguns.  The transition would begin in 2014 with a voluntary change, then a ban on public waters and, finally in 2017, mandatory use of non-toxic shot over all water bodies.  The New Zealand Council does not favour the lifting of the lead shot exemption on sub-gauges.
> 
> Regards
> ...


some info from the top

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## Kiwi-Hunter

Your concerns therefore should be conveyed to the Southland Fish and Game Council.


They haven't listened to date what’s going to change.
See the big picture which will in time involve all of us.
1993 February-Netherlands bans the use of lead shot for hunting over wetlands.
1995 Netherlands bans the use of lead shot in all hunting.
2004 Netherlands bans the use of lead shot for clay pigeons.
There are 29 that I know of so far going down this slide .
The one above is just a look at what's happened in ELEVEN years.
DON’T THINK  THEY WON’T TRY IT IN NZ.

http://www.peregrinefund.org/subsite...15%20Avery.pdf

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## gsp follower

its not on the gazzette for this year so  that pushes back thier plans to introduce a phase in plan at least another year.
hopefuly the lack of support will change the other regions mind and see this fall away despite the deals bieng done. :Omg:

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## Mike H

It was never going to be put up for this years gazette. The rules for this year were made in December. The sub gauge decision wasn't till February just been with the intention of being set next December at the regulations setting meeting for gazetting February 2014.

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## kotuku

One can only hope the southland shooters whose sport is impacted by this devious action,gather en masse and demand a speciasl general meeting of the council.
    one hopes then a massive vote of no confidence is invoked and all you righteous weknow it all concillors are tipped out on your ear.
  thats NZs biggest problem at present .elected people who will not listen to those who put them there in the first place.
  BTWhave you emailed Prof mike Joy at massey varsity yet-or perhaps his opinion on lead will not suit "your rules" either.

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## gadgetman

> One can only hope the southland shooters whose sport is impacted by this devious action,gather en masse and demand a speciasl general meeting of the council.
>     one hopes then a massive vote of no confidence is invoked and all you righteous weknow it all concillors are tipped out on your ear.
>   thats NZs biggest problem at present .elected people who will not listen to those who put them there in the first place.
>   BTWhave you emailed Prof mike Joy at massey varsity yet-or perhaps his opinion on lead will not suit "your rules" either.


From what I gather they didn't have enough candidates down there to require a vote.

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## kotuku

gadget-mores the pity then.atlho ive heard it said 6fingers and a banjo never go astray at some gatherings!

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## gsp follower

> From what I gather they didn't have enough candidates down there to require a vote.


bet that changes next time round :Grin: might register myself just to make sure there a vote in csi and there :36 1 5:

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## Malhunting

Yep its never an election down here its just that some bastard left the door open and some deaf pricks with big heads walked through. Then after time there heads grew so big they couldnt get out again.

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