# Hunting > Hunting >  45/70 Subsonic

## rossi.45

405grn RCBS design at 1060fps . . 197grn .30cal on left

first blood today at 50yds

107yds shoulder shot Fallow . . . smashed it

bullet exit . . 


very happy with the new Marlin Guide  . . its early days but accuracy looks like 1.5MOAish, good enough to stretch it a bit further yet.
on paper energy figures are impressive for a blunt nosed bullet . . . 1000lbs at the muzzle with more power at 600yds than my .30 caliber sub guns have at the muzzle.

present scope for the time being is a 6X Leupold with 80MOA remaining of elevation which could get me to 500yds if i was feeling dangerous  ... .

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## hotbarrels

Yep. About what I would expect. Older brother used to hunt with a Ruger No1 in 45/70 and it destroyed more meat than we ever took home. Was wicked on possums - massive muzzle blast, 2m of muzzle flash, wait 10 seconds for the shower of bits to start coming down!

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## Marty Henry

Nice little exit wound, a big slow lump like that does less tissue damage than a supersonic one. No lead snow storm, and as I once heard someone say you can eat "right up to the hole", but he may have been talking about something else

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## tikka

Mean shoulder damage there. The goats must do some awesome cartwheels being hit with a 405gr slug.

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## Boaraxa

After reading the post it got me looking at ballistics but I couldn't find much online for the 405grn how much energy has the beast got ?

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## homebrew.357

I`s the guide guns  Marlin action larger than a 3030 one and stronger, maybe I could rebarrel my 3030 with a 45-70 barrel. I always thought the 45-70 would flamox anything it hit, great stuff, instant field pizza.

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## Cordite

[QUOTE=
very happy with the new Marlin Guide  . . its early days but accuracy looks like 1.5MOAish, good enough to stretch it a bit further yet.
[/QUOTE]

Tried paper patching?

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## craigc

Mine is just off at SSRNZ getting a DPT can put on it. I'm starting with 325 Hornady projectiles for my sub loads. I'm going to use it for some 'sensitive area culling'. 

It's a mans rifle and I'm a boy! I cut my finger with it the first time I fired it!

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## rossi.45

> Nice little exit wound, a big slow lump like that does less tissue damage than a supersonic one. No lead snow storm, and as I once heard someone say you can eat "right up to the hole", but he may have been talking about something else


only my opinion here but i do think the nose profile of the bullet has a lot to do with the results . . a good meplat will cut/disrupt thru tissue while others such as round nose or non explanding profiles will part tissue at sub speed.

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## rossi.45

> Mean shoulder damage there. The goats must do some awesome cartwheels being hit with a 405gr slug.



no cartwheels  . . . smashes thru both shoulders, bullet exits, dropping them hard . .. the sledgehammer effect of a well placed heavy .45 bullet


bit of a ramble here loaded with opinion, not saying they're facts, just my thinking based on my experience  . . . others will differ

some say its a waste, somehow wrong to have incomplete transfer of energy with full penetration . . . which sounds kinda right from a efficiency point of view . . . but i don't care about efficiency in this case, if its heating a house yes, i don't with shooting, its about terminal performance   
with the subsonic .30 calibers with their lighter bullets you need a lot more care, knowledge to make it work successfully, they don't have the weight to smash thru in a straight line and anchor an animal of any size, it gets worse quickly as the range increases   . . . with the BIG calibers its best to look for information from the big bore handgunners and African shooters who use the heavies at modest velocities, their bullets and techneques are more appropriate . .. to many people try to transfer their knowledge from what they know, high velocity cartridges, it doesnt work, theyre different beasts  . . . ramble over

R.

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## rossi.45

> I`s the guide guns  Marlin action larger than a 3030 one and stronger, maybe I could rebarrel my 3030 with a 45-70 barrel. I always thought the 45-70 would flamox anything it hit, great stuff, instant field pizza.



i would consider the wildcat .35/30 @homebrew.357 or a .44mag/.45LC which would be cheaper with available factory ammo . . . handloading/casting is the way to go.

give Nelson a ring at Status Guns in Invers if rebarreling is an option you might like . . . good guy and always willing to talk guns

R

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## rossi.45

> Mine is just off at SSRNZ getting a DPT can put on it. I'm starting with 325 Hornady projectiles for my sub loads. I'm going to use it for some 'sensitive area culling'. 
> 
> It's a mans rifle and I'm a boy! I cut my finger with it the first time I fired it!


i didnt realise DPT did a .45 suppressor, thats interesting, thought i was stuck with a GunWorks maximus as the only option . . . be interested to see how that goes for you . . . and the 325s

R.

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## rossi.45

> After reading the post it got me looking at ballistics but I couldn't find much online for the 405grn how much energy has the beast got ?



i will try to get a screen shot later of the balistic chart of the load  . . R

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## rossi.45

> Tried paper patching?


funny you should mention paper patching . . these 2 on the left should be good candidates, meplats look perfect. . .

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## Bill999

I think my mold is for 500gr bullets, I was thinking I could hollowpoint them to make a oversized .22 subsonic
either that or cast two bullets and melt them together, 1000gr sounds even better in my head
my 45/70 is only a single shot so easy. 

before all that I still need a fireing pin

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## rossi.45



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## homebrew.357

Hi rossi.45, I was just having you on, I was wondering if the action had been beefed up for the 45-70 cartridge.  I will leave my .3030 as is, I call it "Sudden death" does the job really well in the bush. As I have my home made Sharps I`m into loading with pp bullets and 3031 plus black powder lube ones. But at 12 1/2lbs it`s a range rifle. 
, The Quigley 45-70.
, Paper patching bullets, shoots them the best.

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## rossi.45

your just the man i want to talk to then about paper patching   @homebrew.357

so how far can you hit a bucket with that rifle ? 

do you shoot LR with it ?

R

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## craigc

> i didnt realise DPT did a .45 suppressor, thats interesting, thought i was stuck with a GunWorks maximus as the only option . . . be interested to see how that goes for you . . . and the 325s
> 
> R.


I'll write up a report, if/when it proves to be successful...

The last subsonic project was a bit of fun, this is my fourth one.

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## rossi.45

> I'll write up a report, if/when it proves to be successful...
> 
> The last subsonic project was a bit of fun, this is my fourth one.


info on the suppressor would be appreciated, look forward to it, I'm probably a couple months away till i have the funds so your experience would be just what i need.


sub shooting can get addictive if your that type . . . this is my 3rd .45cal aimed at subsonic hunting, hopefully this one does it.
ive got 2 X .30cals - a 30/30 & a .308 going thru the proceess of getting setup for LR with subs
and a couple of .22s using subs setup for LR bunny shooting

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## Marty Henry

> only my opinion here but i do think the nose profile of the bullet has a lot to do with the results . . a good meplat will cut/disrupt thru tissue while others such as round nose or non explanding profiles will part tissue at sub speed.


Yep, a nice flat nose meplat does most of the work almost as effectivly as a hollow point i believe. I  shoot my 3030 exclusivly now with cast bullets, the lee 170 grain flat point over 9 grains of bluedot works a treat and chronied at an average of 1100fps. And my original trapdoor still occasionally speaks with authority on game with a 405 and black powder. I cant see what ive hit till the smoke clears so dont need a second shot

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## homebrew.357

Hi Rossi.45, Have to say no, not a long range rifle, not bad at 50m but spreads out a bit at 100m. It is a black powder cartridge so trying 65/70 grs 3f with lead bullets, 420gr and pp ones with 3031 powder. My barrel is not as good as your one being home made, with a left hand twist 1-20" and for lead bullets only. But the pp bullets are polishing the bore and less fouling than the black powder. I would love to see how it goes on goats , pigs, deer so it will be with me on my hunts, but mainly use the 3030. For the pp bullets I`m just using paper form my printer and I made a bullet mould to cast pp bullets.
, bullets for pp
, double mould 
, the real deal.

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## rossi.45

> Yep, a nice flat nose meplat does most of the work almost as effectivly as a hollow point i believe. I  shoot my 3030 exclusivly now with cast bullets, the lee 170 grain flat point over 9 grains of bluedot works a treat and chronied at an average of 1100fps. And my original trapdoor still occasionally speaks with authority on game with a 405 and black powder. I cant see what ive hit till the smoke clears so dont need a second shot


always think of Custers Last Stand whenever i come across a Springfield Trapdoor  . .. bullets from them with the power to shoot clean thru an Indians horse at 500yds with the original load of the day . . .  maybe hard for people raised with high velocity cartridges to appreciate what the momentum of a slow moving Big lump of lead can do when it hits something . . i liken it to if you got hit by a bike at 80ks or a bus at 30ks, both will hurt . . but it wont stop the bus.

the numbers in balistic charts dont do the big bores justice or reflect the true performance in the field  . . not sure if the Taylor KO factor is better but its something to consider for hunters

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## homebrew.357

The original loading was 70grs of black with a 500gr bullet, but in the light carbine Springfield it would knock the shooter off the back of his horse. So it was down loaded to 50grs and a 405gr bullet so they could shoot it. I`m loading pp with 35grs to 38grs of 3031 powder, M V about 1.200/300 , The bullets are smaller than the bore and its the paper that engraves in the rifling, on firing there is a paper shredding cloud in front of the gun. The Sharps rifle is no slouch in Africa, even with black powder loads and lead bullets, look up Bill Bagwells  Zebra on google, it fell over be fore it`s shadow.
, 14 shots, fore are touching.
,  dead deer if I can carry it to one.

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## rossi.45

Bill Bagwells name rang a bell               @homebrew.357  . . . is that the same chap in the US who makes Bowie knives ?

is that 5 shot group 50mm at 50M . . .  does that mean it'll do about 4 inch groups at 100 or does it open up more than that.

i had a wincherster trapper in .45LC that shot reasonably well ( 2-3MOA) out to 100yds but you were lucky to hit a dinner plate at 200yds, i had a mildot scope ontop so my older eyes werent the problem, sometimes they just spray past a certain distance and become useless to you.

cute rifle but definitely had problems with the design - oversized oval chamber, feeding issues  . . . i will say it did point well so not all bad if you can overlook the negatives  . . this was my second .45


my first .45 -  pity i couldn't mount a scope ontop, an older Rossi  . . a good honest rifle

R

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## homebrew.357

Yep , Bills the knife maker, and that 50m group was 60mm on the outer edge, at 100m it spreads to 150mm and I take a 6 0clock aim on target, at 50m and 100m it shoots 1-1/2 to 3" high. This is with the pp bullets, the lube black powder ones a bit more with the fouling. My Sharps barrel  is .458" at the breech end and .457" at the muzzle, if you have seen my thread on here of how I made it it`s a wonder it shoots at all. My Marlin has all the parts ground and polished and also the trigger so it`s a lot smoother action now and lighter trigger pull. It`s also been plated with nickel and hard chrome, looks like S Steel. 
, Sharps home made barrel.
, The Sharps to be.

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## homebrew.357

Talk about one rifle and post pic`s of another one! , :O O: . Here is my Marlin 3030.
, After the spruce up.

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## Cordite

That's it, boys, you got it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLP1s0IeIWw

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## rossi.45

always got time for leveractions        @homebrew.357, especially if theyre Marlins . . . good lookn rifle, especially with the straight grip 



first thing i did with my 336 was get rid of the front barrel band,  always disliked the idea & look of them,  probably why i like the 
look of the Guide gun with its short mag . .  . priddy sure there was a small improvement ( 0.5MOA) in accuracy but cant prove it. 


classic     @Cordite  . .. cheers

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## homebrew.357

Hi, Had a shooting session with my Sharps at the range today, not to bad at 50m with lube 420gr bullets and 65grs 3f black, mv 1.200/300 I think. It`s starting to shoot all bullets to she same point of aim, so must be polishing the bore. 
, Now for some goat curry.

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## Micky Duck

do the hollow point thing Bill....have a look at shootersnz .30 cal 151 grn pill....... in my humble opinion its just the ducks nuts at subsonic speeds...recreate it in .45 cal and it would be out of this world..

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## 223nut

Hmmm his thread has got me tempted to buy a big bore rifle and stop passing round with a. 30 cal doing both super and sub sonic

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## 223nut

> That's it, boys, you got it.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLP1s0IeIWw


That was bloody entertaining!

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## homebrew.357

Yep, That's me with the rifle,  :Grin: . Rossi .45 here is my pp bullets, 420grs the ones that hit the bucket, my Sharps likes them, well one is allowed to dream. 
, Bucket muckerupers.

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## rossi.45

last shots for the day confirming dialups with the last of the ammo . . shooting over my day pack

inside white square is 3 inches . . .



plan B if the 405grn doesn't perform at longer range  . . . big long bullets just look right.



the numbers look good . . .

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## rossi.45

here is the 30 caliber 197grn. subsonic for comparison  . . the big .45 has more energy at 700yds than the .30 at the muzzle

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## Marty Henry

Not really a suprise physics sets the rules, double the weight double the energy. But double the velocity and increase the energy 4x adding a few fps to the 308 wont help much but you might get another 100 ft lb and still be sub.

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## rossi.45

ya dead right MartyH,   not really a surprise that it would be more . . . but i kinda like to have a number to play with, even if its not the whole story.

gas checks arrived today 



next job is work up a load for 1600fps . . . not even close to full throttle but plenty of grunt to 300+ yards, recoil calculator predicts about the same kick as a .308
only 1 problem, the usual story . . getting the time this time of year to get out hunting, this is my busy time.



the numbers on the 530grn. bullet at 1600fps are very impressive  . . i might just have to get that mold.

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## gonetropo

if anyone has a 44mag subsonic load i would love  it. (for a rossi L/a)

cheers

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## Marty Henry

A quite managable drop at 300 and much authority at the business end

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## rossi.45

> A quite managable drop at 300 and much authority at the business end


i dont have a problem with bullet drop unless my scopes run out of elevation  . . . real keen to do some field testing to see what kind of authority we are talkn about.



Marlin has an older 6X Luepold i sent back to the custom shop to get German reticle, Target custom turrets installed  . . click value is .5MOA
has over 100MOA of elevation  . . . sits in Burris Signature rings with inserts . . . later a MK4 3.5-10 mil dot with M1 turrets on a custom canted rail will be going on.

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## Friwi

All that energy is not of much use unless you want to shoot 3 or 4 animals next to each other's with one shot.
I have been shooting a few goats with the 458 socom subsonic up to about 160 m. The projectiles go straight through.

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## craigc

I'm picking mine up from SSRNZ tomorrow. I've opted for a DPT can because of the short barell that I have.  

What's the best place to get the Lehigh projectiles from? Straight of their webpage?

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## Friwi

Reloading international web site maybe?

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## rossi.45

> All that energy is not of much use unless you want to shoot 3 or 4 animals next to each other's with one shot.
> I have been shooting a few goats with the 458 socom subsonic up to about 160 m. The projectiles go straight through.


i disagree  . . . i will take more energy every time, its not enough is more of an issue.

the idea that all the energy must be used inside the animal, or you must have expansion etc etc heard it all before  . . . it seems to me its taking the mindset of high velocity bullet techeque and trying to transfer it to subsonic shooting,  there is a better way ( to me ) look to Big bore hand gunners who hunt, they operate at similar velocities.

use a BIG flat meplat and disrupt tissue, go for thru iin thru penetration, smash the shouldes, stop the lungs working  . . . maybe you just need to hit them in the right place         @Friwi or maybe Lehigh bullets, XTP bullets are good, cut the range down untill you get better bullet placement.

i have shot literally thousands of Goats and a few Deer with a mixture of .223s and also cast bullets at subsonic velocity over the years for pest control, using .30 & .45 calibers, tried a lot of bullet designs at close range to +200yds,  thats my experience and it works for me, take it or leave it but don't try to tell me thru in thru penetration for subs is of " not much use "  . .. did you notice a picture of a Fallow Deer at the start of this thread, that was flattened at 100yds  . . Big bullets do that, in my experience, your mileage may differ !


R.

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## rossi.45

> I'm picking mine up from SSRNZ tomorrow. I've opted for a DPT can because of the short barell that I have.  
> 
> What's the best place to get the Lehigh projectiles from? Straight of their webpage?


i would be very interested n your opinion on the suppressor  . . price etc

R.

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## Friwi

Rossi, the goats I have shot with the 458 were with a 300 or 350 gr flat nose bullet . The first one I shot at 160 m was a three quarter shot and she flipped over and probably took 10 or 15 seconds to die. But on examination the bullet went behind the rib cage and through the opposite front shoulder , with a hole no bigger then the projectile diametre.

The two or three goats I shot side on after  (inside the vitals) all ran off and took more than 15 seconds to die. Again very little damage caused by the bullet. I have never recovered those projectiles .
So yes I don't think a heavier projectile would achieve anything else ( except if it was tumbling and creating a wider wound). I am completlety aware of how energy and energy transfer works at subsonic versus supersonic projectiles.

Re reading  an old article about elmer Keith and the development of the 44 magnum and deer shooting at long distance with a handgun( beyond 100 yards) you can clearly see that a good number of deer were running away when the bullets were not hitting the vitals. Some were incapacitated or slowed down and a second well adjusted bullet from the same handgun or a friend rifle was finishing the job. While Keith was certainly an exceptional handgunner I believe he was using his bullets beyond their practical limits on those animals.

Regarding suppressors on those big bore, don't expect much from any brand. I made a long and voluminous suppressor for the 458 socom , but it still make a lot of noise. That is the nature of the beast when you want to quiet 23 gr of trailboss. And that was with the 350 grain bullets. When you jump to 500 grainers , you have to quieten an even bigger quantity of propelling gases.
Good luck with your project . It is all good fun. Just don't expect too too much of it.

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## rossi.45

the difference between a handgun and a rifle at longer range is accuracy  . . . this is a target shot with the main subsonic rifle i used on Goats ( bit of a breeze moved the group over a tad ) the other rifle i used is a bolt action which is a little more accurate with a more powerfull scope.



.45 is going to be noiser . . . Trailboss is not my powder of choice,  a fast pistol powder, 12.5grns is better.

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## rossi.45

as far as expectations go theyre based on experience so i have no illusions there  . . . i chose .45s because they dump the animal to the ground with more authority . . others may have different mileage


bit of a ramble here  . . .  recently took a house guest for a walk up the hill to knock over some Goats, keen young fella, good guy  . . . told him how and where to shoot them, when not to  . . . well he had some cripples that needed finnishing.  The problem was he was still thinking like he had a high velocity cartridge, shoot them in the big bit stuff  . . . but it wasnt his fault, it was the subs, fckn useless, thats his story.

That was my lesson,  you can tell people the where and the how but they stay at their default settings mostly . . . i can tell you how it works for me, listen if you want but dont tell me your observations are better than mine based 3 or 4 animals


as i said earlier  . . . have a look at the picture of the Fallow,  what does that tell you @Friwi about the bullets performance ?

R.

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## Friwi

Did you reap the shoulder or did the bullet hit ball joint?

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## rossi.45

> Did you reap the shoulder or did the bullet hit ball joint?


i didnt open up the shoulder for a better look  . . . looked fckd, typical reaction to getting hit by a .45 caliber bullet with a Big sharp edged meplat.

i can understand why your having trouble believing me when i say such and such happens when i shoot animals with a .45 . . .  it doesnt happen in your limited experience, so why would you believe me, i do get it.

all i can say is in my experience a .45 with the right bullet in the right place will the knock the stuffing out of an animal, with a poor choice not so much.

as examples  . . . i use to sneak up on a mob of Goats to within 15 odd yards and open up with the .45Colt Rossi and later some with a mildot scoped Wincheter Trapper, the first shot is always the best hit followed by running shots, 95 percent of the time they were flattened or took a few steps before keeling over, the action is thick and fast with reloads untill they get out of range.
a memorable one was a BIG Fallow that broke cover 10yds away going like the clappers across me, this is first time i used 300XTP bullets  . . .  that knocked him down in mid stride with goop and clockwork spread across the ground, i could look inside his chest, they are a great bullet with similar performance seen often.
that kind of performance i expect with a .45 going because i have seen it many times . . . on my side which maybe you don't have is the amount of time i was shooting and the amount of animals i was shooting.   i had time to buy different molds and try each bullet in the field over years.

my advice is get into cast bullets, pick some that have sharp edges on the nose or SWC for pistol, the classic Elmer Keith is a good start .. . just out of interest he wrote a couple of books that are worth reading.

a last thought on the theory that the energy is wasted if it isnt dumped in the animal . . . as far as i can figure ALL the damage is done on the way thru that i need doing, i dont need more . . so what if a bullet that cost me 5c to cast goes into the countryside, i will take over penetration every time to under penetration given the choice.

what bullets are you using     @Friwi

thats my thoughts  . . others will have different opinions

R

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## Timmay

Hi guys, what is the recoil on these (subsonic 45/70) comparable to in terms of centre fire, 243, 260 or 308?
Im attracted to the cartridge and lever actions but don't like big kickers.

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## rossi.45

> Hi guys, what is the recoil on these (subsonic 45/70) comparable to in terms of centre fire, 243, 260 or 308?
> Im attracted to the cartridge and lever actions but don't like big kickers.


try this  . . . 

ShootersCalculator.com | Recoil Calculator

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## Marty Henry

Not as good a bush gun as yours being 1.35 metres long, but with a 82 cm barrel you do get a nice long sight base. The rear sight is ramped up to 2000 yards.
I suspect that even at that range if you hit anything it would be flattened.

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## rossi.45

there is something about older military weapons . . . always when handling them i cant help but think about the men that made them, those who used them and where.

looks in great condition  . . . bet you draw a crowd at the range when you bring that out

R.

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## Friwi

Hi Rossi,
I used 350 gr flat point Speer on the goats .I would not mind swapping some lead ( I have a few kg to get rid off) against a few of your cast projectiles to see how they perform. I would also need you to indicate me where to place that bullet in an animal with those cast.
By the way I got my powder wrong. I was using reloader 7 not trail boss.
Thanks.

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## Marty Henry

Barrels got some pitting and the wood has a few dings but if I look as good at 132 years old Ill be pretty happy. Took it to the Toby shoot last year, managed a gong at 475 and p38 did one at 250 but I reckon the star was the potato gun.

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## Cordite

The .45/70 is no sissy gun.

What must also have been some gun would be a Lee Metford .303/71.5 firing a 225grain bullet.  They actually managed to get 71.5grains of blackpowder into the case - which was of similar dimensions to a 30/40 Krag - by inserting a solid, oblong BP pellet, slightly rounded at its ends and with a hollow through its middle (first instance of a single solid BP pellet?), and only then bottlenecking the cartridge.  Obviously not with reloaders in mind.

I think from memory it had some 1800 fps muzzle velocity, whereas the much later cordite Mk 7 .303 fired a 174grain spitzer at up to 2400fps.  Can't help thinking what velocity that 174grain spitzer would have flown at if it had its ancestral BP pellet behind it.

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## rossi.45

> The .45/70 is no sissy gun.
> 
> What must also have been some gun would be a Lee Metford .303/71.5 firing a 225grain bullet.  They actually managed to get 71.5grains of blackpowder into the case - which was of similar dimensions to a 30/40 Krag - by inserting a solid, oblong BP pellet, slightly rounded at its ends and with a hollow through its middle (first instance of a single solid BP pellet?), and only then bottlenecking the cartridge.  Obviously not with reloaders in mind.
> 
> I think from memory it had some 1800 fps muzzle velocity, whereas the much later cordite Mk 7 .303 fired a 174grain spitzer at up to 2400fps.  Can't help thinking what velocity that 174grain spitzer would have flown at if it had its ancestral BP pellet behind it.


all i can say is you wouldnt find me around the potato gun  . . . i would be admiring the .45

well done on the LR shooting . . . i can imagine the scene  . . . BANG . . . wait for it  . . . wait for it  . . . Bong !

R.

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## rossi.45

> Hi Rossi,
> I used 350 gr flat point Speer on the goats .I would not mind swapping some lead ( I have a few kg to get rid off) against a few of your cast projectiles to see how they perform. I would also need you to indicate me where to place that bullet in an animal with those cast.
> By the way I got my powder wrong. I was using reloader 7 not trail boss.
> Thanks.



i can put you on the list for ' things to do ' but be warned its longer than the NZ health surgery list . . . doesnt help that i work split shifts and 13 days on 1 off  . . if it wasnt for the odd public holiday etc i wouldnt get anything done.


slightly off topic  . . . zeroed this morning the Brno with its new custom 25MOA rail, 4-16 Steiner Military in Burris rings with 40MOA inserts . . .. using subs i have enough elevation for 475yds.
ill push the distance out there for awhile before i go to high velocity LR work . . . thats the plan, i've been working toward this for a few years now and good to get closer.



put a few shots thru the Marlin . . . pity i couldnt get access to the other farm today, wanting to shoot a few big Billys length ways to test penetration





R.

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## Marty Henry

Up the bunghole, no bones till the brisket, better get 2 or 3 in a line if thats your plan to test penetration. That sounds a bit rude actually.

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## Maca49

The 577/450 they lined up 10 prisoners the first one new he was dead, but it stopped at 7.5 men down if my memory serves me correct.
I shoot 45/70 with 500 grain projectile on63 grains of FFG BP. Packs a punch both ways, but have never chrony it. I love the calibre, easy to reload!

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## rossi.45

managed to get permission, bless cellphones . ..

up the exhaust pipe for the Billy from 50yds, approximately 30 inches later came out the chest . . . didnt open him up, darn right unpleasant smelly old bugger

front shot for the nanny bullet came out the side . .



Fallow neck shot at 87yds  . . . why the pic is on its side i dont know . . cant seem to right it



Attachment 71118

wound was similar on both sides  . . . this maybe the entry



a good day off . ..  i will look forward to next in 2 weeks

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## Maca49

Ug! :Have A Nice Day:

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## Micky Duck

ah well you know it kills....what more is there to know? lol

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## rossi.45

> ah well you know it kills....what more is there to know? lol


the plan is to start moving the shots out further and see how we go  . . . . i only stopped at 200yds with the .30cal subs on animals because i didnt think they had enough grunt to be effective past that, accuracy was good enough on targets to well past 300yds . .  . all bullets inside a target size of 6 inches i consider good enough for field shooting . . . longest shots on one occasion was 400yds

----------


## homebrew.357

The G/Gun can use jacketed f n bullets, 300/350grs and with a m/v of 2.100fps can bugger up a lot of meat, so just shooting 420gr lead bullets at 1.300 f p s does the same job as subsonic with no mess. I don't like a small bit of pistol powder in a large case with maybe a filler, a good load of black or nitro gets the job done, but it`s all about trying to see what the gun likes. With the light weight G/Gun it can bite at both ends with larger weight bullets.

----------


## rossi.45

your not the only reloader    @homebrew.357 that doesnt like fast pistol type powders for reduced loads . . . but it is excepted by many using cast bullets . . its that well known its often called simply " The Load " 10grns. of Unique

.10 Grs. Unique. The Universal Cast Boolit Rifle Load?

with velocity its a personal decision  . . . for myself i need subsonic speed so no choice there . . with higher velocity i want a flatter trajectory so 1300fps isnt a worth while gain, 1600fps is closer to my ideal with no accuracy problems or stressing my soft lead alloy bullets . . . there will be a similar later for the .45/70

with my .30 caliber Subsonic loads i have a 50yrd zero . . . without changing my scope settings by simply changing to my higher velocity ( 1600) ammo using the same bullet the point of impact is now bang on 100yds giving me more smack down power and range before i need to consider pulling out the rangefinder etc . .. its a good simple system that works in the field so no fckups

have read heaps about Guide Guns that bite with hot loads  . . .  had plenty of experience chasing power using hot loads in my Rossi with its steel buttplate to appreciate how nasty it can get . . . mild loads definetly are easier.  

orderd some 350grn. jacketed bullets . . . not so much for animals but i will probably try a few out on Goats, mostly to run thru the barrel and smooth up the rifling.
one other benefit is it will give me a better idea of the Marlins accuracy potential, i then can aim for that if i choose with cast boolits . . .

R.

----------


## wsm junkie

Cool thread guys, very informative and very interesting on big bore subs.

----------


## rusl

Hey mate, don't wish to derail a interesting thread, but how did you reattach the magazine tube here? I would really like to do this to my 336 but hav'nt figured out the best way. Any pics or links on how to would be much appreciated.

----------


## rusl

Sorry guys I thought that would show the pic, new to this forum stuff, that was ment for @rossi.45

----------


## rusl

> always got time for leveractions        @homebrew.357, especially if theyre Marlins . . . good lookn rifle, especially with the straight grip 
> 
> Attachment 70646
> 
> first thing i did with my 336 was get rid of the front barrel band,  always disliked the idea & look of them,  probably why i like the 
> look of the Guide gun with its short mag . .  . priddy sure there was a small improvement ( 0.5MOA) in accuracy but cant prove it. 
> 
> 
> classic     @Cordite  . .. cheers


Had to use youtube but I have learnt how to do some thing new today, cheers.

----------


## rossi.45

> how did you reattach the magazine tube here


Nelson Collie at Status Guns did the work  . . . i told him what i wanted  . . a mortise cut into the barrel, wedgy thing put in,   the magtube is held with the screw that goes thru the mag end cap.

dont just screw the magtube cap directly to the barrel . . . not a good idea with the research i did.

Contacts

R.

ps . . . no worries with the thread drifting off subject a little @rusl . . i intend to keep this thread going for awhile and bring up related stuff i think will be relevant, its going to drift abit.

----------


## homebrew.357

My Marlin 3030 has a micro grooved barrel, is your g/gun the same, I`m trying cast in my 3030 but not much success with a 150gr gc bullet. I think a 170gr would better, may have to ream out the mould a bit. In the light loads with the 45-70 are you using a filler or wad to keep the small powder charge by the primer. I only like to have two powders, 3031 for my .308, 3030, 45-70 and black also for the 45-70 so there's no mistakes. And it`s so much fun when I`m at the range with my Sharps and there`s all the semi autos in .223 with a big muffler on the end and I let rip with a black powder load,  :Wtfsmilie:

----------


## Micky Duck

homebrew    Robert/shootersnz makes a flatnose 170grn that works fine in rifle like yours....did a few for my mate without issues...did appear to be close to rifling but worked just fine.

----------


## rossi.45

> My Marlin 3030 has a micro grooved barrel, is your g/gun the same, I`m trying cast in my 3030 but not much success with a 150gr gc bullet. I think a 170gr would better, may have to ream out the mould a bit. In the light loads with the 45-70 are you using a filler or wad to keep the small powder charge by the primer. I only like to have two powders, 3031 for my .308, 3030, 45-70 and black also for the 45-70 so there's no mistakes. And it`s so much fun when I`m at the range with my Sharps and there`s all the semi autos in .223 with a big muffler on the end and I let rip with a black powder load,


Yes a micro groove Barrel     @homebrew.357

i will run thru what i do with a new rifle to use cast in and maybe something will be of use to you .. . you probably know it already.

with a micro groove barrel especially bullets should be 1 or 2 thou at least over groove diameter, some molds your fcked before you start if theyre under sized.
your choice of alloy plays a part in bullet diameter.
mine go thru a .311 sizer when lubing, using gas checks.
choose the correct mold design for the 30/30 in lever actions. 
personally i like a bullet that slightly engraves the rifling on closing the bolt or lever.
a light crimp for hunting bullets in tube mags . . . 

i have used the 150grn. LEE .308 mold in the past but that was in my preMarlin days  . . . the mold was good to use, cast good bullets and it went as well as any others in my Brno, same 1-10 twist.

longer heavier bullets are my first choice . . they dont work any better than shorter bullets but they just look right to me. 


Yes to the filler with light loads . . which is something else to keep in mind, the amount of filler can be a factor in group size.
good news is using 7.0grns in my 30cal subsonic loads i get 1000 loads per pound of powder . . . with good accuracy . . but not for the sloppy reloader, a double charge things could get real ugly.

that black powder ( known as Holy Black to some ) will get peoples attention when it goes off . . . my first 45/70 was a Martini rebarreled with a Hawkins barrel that came with a swag of Black Powder ammo, liked firing the ammo but didnt like the mess/cleanup later . . . one of the worst guns i have owned with a terrable stock that smacked me in chops every time i fired it, a valueable lesson learned, stock design does matter.

----------


## rossi.45

just thinking on the way home  @homebrew.357 that i forgot to mention the M dies  . . . do you use those for reloading the 30/30, you'll have a flaring tool for your .45/70

i like them and have a set for the .30/30 and .308,   its those little extra steps that dont add much to accuracy by themselves but added together make a difference, especially as the range gets out there.

what kind of accuracy are you getting with yours at the moment ?

R.

----------


## homebrew.357

My bullets come out at .312/13 dia  and size to .310 , I found I was squashing the nose with g/c, lube sizing and chambering a round the bullet would be pushed into the case, or jam in the chamber, case neck to big. My new way was just seat the g/c, then size nose first and then lube, about 4/6" spread at 100m with 27/29 grs 3031. I have not tried cast in my .308 yet, something to look at, and I have just made a new bullet mould for my Sharps with better lube groves, I won`t know the weight till I do some casting, the 45-70 is easy to load, I have not got any dies for it, but still can load them up.
, Another mould.

----------


## rossi.45

@homebrew.357 are you using the LEE 312 mold meant for the 7.62x39 ?        .312/13 seems on the generious side for a .308 barrel, folklore has it that sizing down can only have negative effercts on accuracy.

if it was me i would buy a 309 170grn LEE mold just to try  . . . theyre a good hunting style bullet and ya can never have enough molds.

its been my experience that powder selection can make or break cast bullet shooting, jacketed are a lot more tolerant  . . . as an example my Marlin .30/30 is a 1.5MOA shooter at 1600fps with SR4759.
but thats discontinued, any other powder i have tried its a 3.0MOA shooter . . not that important because i only really wanted more smack as an option over the subs out to 100ish yards, still a good example that you only need to get one thing slightly wrong with cast and accuracy goes south.

look forward to seeing the results of the new .45 mold.

an old mate of mine for years refused to use dies, mind you it would have cost him a fortune to buy them for the weird n wonderful old military rifles he had all over his house, under beds, in every cupboard, behind every door.

a day off coming up on this Saturday, forecast is rubbish but i will try to get out for a shot n try the jacketed  350s on paper  . . . definitely go varminting in the morning and try for a Goat in the afternoon if everything lines up.

R.

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## homebrew.357

The mould I have is the Lee d/c, C309-160-R, Dia .309, 160gr, My lead,(pipe) is mixed with a bit of linotype and tin to harden it up a bit, could go a bit harder to see if it casts to size and stop them squishing the nose. Could use then in my .303 if I start loading for it and will be looking at Lee R E A L and round ball mould in .45 cal for my Hawken plains rifle as I have made a new barrel for it, needs some range time to see where it is shooting. All this shooting is a heap of fun and come September I will go bush for a few days to try and get something for the pot.
, The Hawken speaks loud!!

----------


## rossi.45

tried the 350grn. Hornadys in the weekend at 80yds. followed by some 405s . . . a little crosswind 



surprised at the vertical stringing of the 350s  . . . fired the 405s straight away to see if it was the forend bedding or shooting position that was the problem, nope, the usual group shape, around 2.0MOA

----------


## rossi.45

Fallow shot this evening at about 70yds

----------


## john m

Stringing is normal for many marlins as the barrel gets hot.Mine does it the first three go into 1.25 inch and then they start to climb but with a 45 70 not many shots used when hunting

----------


## rossi.45



----------


## rossi.45

leg/shoulder removed for a look . . .





shoulder broken, lungs hit  . . . surprisingly went 20yds before piling up.

----------


## Micky Duck

man a hole that big can sure let a lot of daylight in!!!!!

----------


## rossi.45

> man a hole that big can sure let a lot of daylight in!!!!!


ya know when you can look inside an animal youve done some real damage @Micky Duck . . . itll be interesting to see if that performance keeps up as the range moves out.

R.

----------


## rossi.45

> Stringing is normal for many marlins as the barrel gets hot.Mine does it the first three go into 1.25 inch and then they start to climb but with a 45 70 not many shots used when hunting



the stringing is surprising because its never done it before with cast . . . i have used 85 shots on paper sofar so i would have expected it to happened before now . .. but strange thigs happen when shooting groups, especially with a new rifle.

all of my shots have been slow fire without a rest period to cool down because the gun will be mostly used for Goat shooting with long strings of fire  . . . im not after great groups, i want to know what it will do in the field.

the weather here is definitely on the cool side so no worries with hot barrels with the sub load ( 12.5grns.) even after 20 shots at slow fire.

the interesting thing is not so much the length of the group but the width . . . less than .5inch

anyway  . . . its only of interest  . . i won't be using them in the field.


i will be dropping off the Marlin at the Gun Smiths next week to get a suppressor fitted.

R.

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## homebrew.357

Hi Rossi, Looks like it`s on the money in more than one way, on target and a LOT of lead poison there as well. Had a shooting session with my Hawken plains .45 muzzle loader and the Sharps at 50m, the M/L was about 2 1/2- 3" high with a patched round ball and 50/55gr 3f b/p , grouped quite well for a home made barrel, just needs a lot more shooting to polish it up. The Sharps was about the same with 65gr 3f black/p and a 405gr bullet at 50m and as I have made a new back sight my have to use a higher front one to bring it down a bit.  I had a go at casting bullets with my new mould, not to bad, came out at 410gr, so will be loading some up to see how they go. 
, Look good for hunting.
, Plenty of lube groves.
, The Hawken .45 p r b 50m.
, The Sharps, first group 6 ok holed, second, aimed a bit lower.

----------


## rossi.45

outstanding @homebrew.357    look forward to hearing how you get on hunting with the new mold/bullet


ordered a 25MOA picatinny rail for the Marlin today from Waitaki Engineering . . . then the 3-10 Leupold Mk4 will go on top . . getting there slowly

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## john m

Not subsonic but I was going to pull some 300 gr Hornady's untill I found a more fun use. There is an old gumtree near a deer fence that was going to drop a large limb over the fence and Murphy's law says we will not be home when it does and the deer will escape into the wild. So 33 rounds later 1 branch fell inside and 2 outside the fence.









Will this new use make the 45/70 and ammo a tax deductable expense  :Thumbsup:

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## rossi.45

several thoughts come to mind   @john m 


i am shocked  . . . that no one thought of this sooner

are you sure about the tax deductable thing for ammo

very nice lookn rifle/scope combo

so many trees in the background to cut down . .. 

good on ya mate  . . . R


ps  . . . . dont try this at home kids wihtout adult supervision

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## john m

We'll the chainsaw fuel is tax deductible so----- Imagine a team of 45 70 shooters felling that block over the fence

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## Marty Henry

I have shot pinecones and leaders with a shotty doing forestry (the bits are evidently used for testing). The shotgun beretta extrema had been bought as a business expence as well as a couple of slabs a year
The boss always seemed to have it over opening weekend.

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## homebrew.357

The hunting with my Sharps will be pretty slowwww, the beast weighs 12 1/2 lbs, so if I can find one or two goats ,  but I do take it with me on hunts and if the lands a bit flat, you never know. 
, Your right guys, just the thing for nocking down trees.

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## rossi.45

your rifle weights about the same as my heavy varmint rifle              @homebrew.357  . . . after a day carrying it around the hills here i feel like I'm carrying a truck axle over my shoulder on the way back to the vehicle - having said that i like heavy guns when it comes time to pull the trigger on something.

for hunting thru the tight stuff i am appreciating the Marlin Guide gun, it weighs fck all, its short, balances well, points well, the nice thin slab sided reciever fits the hand well . .. just about the perfect bush rifle i have ever handled  . . to me


hit this Stag at 60yds on the run last night  . . . he went another 20yds then hit the breaks, fell over 

a blood trail a blind man could follow  . . . this part i especially like



bullet hit behind the right shoulder, went between the ribs, thru the lungs, out between the ribs, missed the shoulder/leg bones  . . . no bones hit making a big difference to the size of the wounds . . but still dropped him in short order.

----------


## superdiver

@homebrew.357 were you at the range on Sunday??

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## homebrew.357

Yep, That was me making a fog over the range with old lead poison and the beast. Rossi you must like lots of venison sausages , this drilling large holes in small deer is becoming a habit, I`m dead jealous, I`m having to hunt my deer in pack and save. I can only carry mine for short walks as I have a meatal hip, so I mostly take my Marlin 3030, its only got a 16" barrel so nice and light for bush bashing.

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## superdiver

thought i recognised that beautiful rifle and the stand you carried in. I was the young crazy guy in barefeet at the other end.
Tell you what homebrew your gun was much more pleasant than the guy with the muzzle break down the end sending shockwaves through anyone within 10m.

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## homebrew.357

Yes they are fun guns to shoot and as Rossi.45 has shown sub loads get the job done . I`m just up a bit at 1.200/300 fps with black or nitro and with a 420gr slug it hits with the authority of flying bricks, well on my targets anyway, I have yet to get something for the table with it yet.

----------


## rossi.45

the DPT suppressor is now fitted  . . . shown with 1 baffle on making for a length of 20 inches



the plan is to add 2 baffles at a time to see what kind of reduction i get, how it handles, POI changes as i change the amount of baffles . . .  these modular suppressors are new to me but i do like the idea.



the work was done by Greg at Custom Guns . . . a really good guy to deal with, likes to talk guns, has a lot of experience with 45/70s suppressed and .45s in general.

showed me his personal Big hitter, a very nicely balanced rifle  . . . a 458 based on the RUM case with the potential to go +3000fps with 350grn bullets, what the recoil is like i dont want to know.

also a little Bergara singleshot in .45/70 in the shop took my interest, stainless, fluted barrel, threaded already . . . quality looked n felt good.



waiting on the 25MOA rail to put the Mk4 on and the major stuff is done  . . . may look at chopping the barrel/mag back later on.

----------


## homebrew.357

Being a Quigley Sharps man and of the old school a muffler on the end of a rifle just doesn't work for me. Will it work with a large bore rifle?, that big hole would just let the sound carry on through, ok the subs could be alright , I would take care if shooting pp bullets, could gum up the hole a bit.

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## rossi.45

first shots thru the suppressor last night  . . . fired over the bonnet of the truck, not the best for a true indication of precision but similar performance to what i can shoot in the field.



noise levels were ok with the pistol powder loads . . . outstanding with TrailBoss, a nice Boomff, POI was 2.00inches lower than the 1020fps load so at a guess somewhere around 950fps

later i will experiment with different amounts of baffles on . . . fine tune the load and barrel bedding



waiting on the canted rail now . . . R.

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## rossi.45

this is the TrailBoss load 12.5grns  .. . nice round group, definitely will load up some more over the next few weeks adding more gas till i reach a noise level/velocity that i am happy with

----------


## rossi.45

71 yards . . . . heart n lungs both hit with bone fragments  .. . smashed it.









i kept the back steaks, everything else i dropped off to my neighbours and some workmates.

----------


## rossi.45

2nd Fallow for the day

111 yards  . . . reared up and toppled over a bank,  good blood sign on the ground where it was hit, found 5 yards over the bank





chest cavity was filled with blood, top of the heart had been hit, no bones were hit   .. . and still it knocks it over with authority 

R.

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## rossi.45

slightly off topic ( i did warn there would be some drifting )  . . . this is for the .458 Socom operators . . some LongRange sub shooting 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcMiHEIFLWM

----------


## homebrew.357

AAHHH, I`v got it, your shooting on a deer farm, and more new rifles come out every week than you can shake a stick at. What`s a .458 Socom?.  :Sad:

----------


## homebrew.357

OK OK , I googled it, hell if the old buff hunters had that they would have wiped out the buffalo's in a week. Just shows you it`s gone the full round from .223 back to the old 45-70, sort of, all they have to do now is load it with black powder and lead bullets. Speaking of the 45-70, had a blast at the range this morning with pp 420 gr bullets, 35grs 3031, just love shooting that gun and it likes the pp loads . 
, Yep, the Sharps on full auto!. at 50ms

----------


## rossi.45

this is the new canted scope rail  . . . its on its way back to get fixed.



this is how it should look . . . below . . . the 45MOA rail on the .30/30 Marlin




if you look closely you will see the new rail is canted in the wrong direction.

bit of a pain having to wait to mount the 3.5-10 Mk4 on the Guide Gun but shit happens . . .

the plan is to swop the scopes over to the other lever action  . . . then i have enough elevation with the .30/30 subs to reach out to 700yrds on steel targets, now thats a challenge.

R.

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## rossi.45

> AAHHH, I`v got it, your shooting on a deer farm, and more new rifles come out every week than you can shake a stick at. What`s a .458 Socom?.


the population of Fallow has gone thru the roof around here . . . I'm seeing them on the roadside during the day, Pigs as well . . . Goats are everywhere . . . millions of Rabbits

the .458 Socom looks the goods, it should be a natural for hunters you would think . . . to me.

R.

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## rossi.45

the scope rail is back, bolted on nicely & now we're all set to shoot some longer range  . . .  lets hope the weather is good on my day off coming up this Saturday


Leupold Mk4  3.5-10 mildot with M3 dial ( 1MOA per click )

----------


## rossi.45

snow n rain on the hill today . . 

15 Goats shot


a Stag in top condition . . 75yds, had to shoot thru scrub for a neck shot, decked it . . wouldnt have tried the shot with a lesser caliber


bullet stopped in rear leg . . damage to the front, one side and the base of the bullet, impressive performance.



settled on a load for the time being of 14.5grns TrailBoss for 965fps  . . . . ran 3 shots across the Chrony working up and got 965, 966, 965fps and the tightest group so far, might be just luck but thatll do for now.

would be good to get the opportunity to get longer shots but so far the animals haven't cooperated . . . set up a few times but always the beggars moved off.

----------


## Micky Duck

looks like its working just fine n dandy. youve got to be happy with preformance like that.

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## homebrew.357

That is one lean, mean, machine, and it gets the job done real good. Bet your getting fat on venison sausage's and goat curries.

----------


## Marty Henry

Whats your alloy mix? I will find one of my 1:20 tin lead 3030s with much more expansion. But them you start at .45 so you are on a winner already!

----------


## rossi.45

> Whats your alloy mix? I will find one of my 1:20 tin lead 3030s with much more expansion. But them you start at .45 so you are on a winner already!


50/50 wheelweights & scrap lead with a little Tin added,  thinking i will add more soft lead and see what happens, not so much for expansion, i have a lot of it and not so much wheelweights which is harder to find.

yeah nodoubt the bigger .45 has an advantage over the .30 at sub speeds  . . . . bit of a ramble here  . . .  use to run a combo of  197grn RCBS bullets at 1050fps and 1600fps loads in my .30/30 with good results, the high speed load with cast lead bullets flattened anything it hit, hard for non-believers to imagine the power of lead bullets at modest velocity.


very happy Micky, homebrew with the caliber/rifle setup . . . . just wish i had more time to use it, hanging out for the school holidays in a couple of weeks and a chance to get seriously stuck into the Goats . . . especially at longer ranges

----------


## Micky Duck

next level will be stuffing the case with hand made/home brewed black powder....... now THAT  just has to be one hell of a lot of fun....and oh so cheap that even my Scottish blood would get excited and want to fire off more.

----------


## Friwi

How are you liking the shooting with the suppressor?

----------


## rossi.45

> How are you liking the shooting with the suppressor?


short answer  @Friwi is good . . . like the performance, price, build quality, ability to add more baffles

longer rambling answer  . . . to get the noise reduction i wanted ( added an extra 3 baffles ) the over all length is a little long for best handling, balance is ok tho, the DPT is certainly light weight . . . do i cut the mag back to the forend and shorten the barrel at some future date.
the downside to barrel chops, it makes them stumpy and Loud if i want to hunt without the suppressor, not to mention killing the resale value, which is bad enough with a stock rifle . . .  not sure, i will use it for awhile and see how we go.

more rambling  . . . i really need to get some +200yrd kills to behind me to workout my next move . ..  thinking this bullet will be ok but i dont know . . maybe a heavier bullet with BIG flat meplate, or maybe a .50 caliber  of some description, its all good tho, trying to  workout / build the perfect Mouse Trap.

R.

----------


## Micky Duck

have you tried one backwards yet?????? that would take up a bit more case room but give you big flat metplate and a super duper boattail lol.

----------


## rossi.45

cheers Micky . . . nodoubt it would leave a mark on anything it hit but its not something i would run thru a leveraction going for longer range, at this stage anyway, i will keep it tucked away tho  . . . R

----------


## rossi.45

a good day on the hill, a dozen shot . . no Deer seen but pushing the range out a little further . . so making progress

----------


## Marty Henry

So what was the mid range trajectory on that goat wearing the kneepads.

----------


## Micky Duck

man that looks like sooo much fun,would be great to do same with my x39mm with subs.

----------


## rossi.45

> So what was the mid range trajectory on that goat wearing the kneepads.


a bit over 2 feet . . .

----------


## mawzer308

Nice going mate, might have to try again with my guide gun but, could never get the projectiles to stabilize at subsonic speeds.

----------


## craigc

How quiet is it with the suppressor? I wasn't that impressed with mine. The .308 is much more quieter, mind you it's a smaller projectile...

And how many grains of Trail Boss did you use with the Hornady 350s?

Cheers

----------


## rossi.45

i would have to say      @craigc i am pleased with the DPT suppressors performance . . . starting out it was an unknown how much louder a sub .45 would be, the internet vids werent really helpful, certainly expected it to be more than a .30 caliber but thats all i knew.

my velocity is low at 975fps so that will help, also lead needs less powder than jacketed bullets  . . . also ordered an extra 3 baffles which did make a big difference, made the setup longer but i can live with that.

keeping in mind the performance gain over the .30s with lead bullets its been a good move, so far it tips them over every time at any range i have tried.
having the knowledge that the bullets will go the whole length of an animal at any angle, that it will smash thru anything in its path builds confidence in the setup . . . thats a good feeling when its time to pull the trigger. 

didn't do any more with the 350s  . . . first groups didnt look hopeful so that was the end of that.
whats your experience with the .45s been like so far ?   a picture of your setup would be cool. 


last animal taken .. .

----------


## Rich007

Any update on this thread? Sounds interesting.....

----------


## rossi.45

not much to add         @Rich007 . . pics from last outing in March

longest shot of a dozen Goats taken




Fallow,  standing shot at roughly 90 yards, uphill angle  . . . ran for 25 yards which was a surprise, usually they drop on the spot





still some fine tuning to do with the setup but its good enough to get the job done so i have been slack and gone onto other projects . . . trigger job is at the top of the list and some work on the forend, talked to @gundoc about it so its in the near future

----------


## ANTSMAN

awesome thread!

----------


## Moa Hunter

Some great info here. I am looking for some 450 grain Hollowpoints in a soft lead that will perform like a giant 22 sub for a new project. Have you got anything like that ??
In my 44 mag Rossi I have been running 300 grn XTP Hornadys but they are a bit hard and don't mushroom.

----------


## rossi.45

> Some great info here. I am looking for some 450 grain Hollowpoints in a soft lead that will perform like a giant 22 sub for a new project. Have you got anything like that ??
> In my 44 mag Rossi I have been running 300 grn XTP Hornadys but they are a bit hard and don't mushroom.


no sorry Moa,   but good luck  . . . whats the new project envolve ?

go for a bullet with a BIG meplat & sharp edges that cut a bloody great hole and punch thru an animal . . . expansion is over rated.

----------


## homebrew.357

A nice wad cutter type like what I accidently made, its a paper patch bullet, 420gr and on cardboard backing targets it cuts a neat round hole. Haven`t tried it on anything furry yet but think it would get the job done. 
,

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## Moa Hunter

New project is a Stirling Single Shot shotgun action - if you remember the ones with the pin hinge that fold in half. Anyway it has a 458 cal barrel tube on it now with a 1 in 16 twist. it is chambered in a shortened version of 45/70. So with a folding stock, should fit into a 40cm bag when trout fishing as a backup to the landing net. Currently modifying it to external hammer with manual cocking.  
Have you looked at Outlaw State Projectiles ?. 
Reason for going to the 45 is that while the 44 mag I have now flattens pigs goats and fallow as long as they are hit in exactly the right spot it isn't quite enough for a heavy red stag. Shot a bison heifer ( used to farm them )smack in the forehead at 70 metres and it was like slow motion, with a delay of one second before anything happened, then plonk over.
I don't know how the 300blkts etc really go with their low energy numbers, but out of all choices the 45/70 is probably the best.

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## rossi.45

i know the sterling single barrel shotguns very well  . . . owned one for many years but sadly sold off in a rash moment.
pictures of your project with ammo specs etc would be appreciated when it is done, sounds very interesting.
and look forward to your observations when the .45 is used in anger.

cheers for the mention of Outlaw State Projectiles  . . . dont know them, they look effective and nodoubt expensive, always a problem with high tech jobs.

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## rossi.45

bullet on the right ( 340grns ) is the one i have been paper patching . . . results so far average 1.5 inches at 50 yards, vel 1055fps average, POI is 2 mils higher than the usual 405grn. bullet ( centre ) suppressor was checked between shots & found to be clean

next step is to find the time to cast some more bullets, then move the target out in steps to get more data . . . then shoot some animals.
theyre a little lighter than than the 405s and they have a wider flatpoint ( meplat ) so performance will a little different, how much i am keen to see.

bullet on the left is 300grns

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## Moa Hunter

Them's sure big Metplats Rossi, Elmer Keith will be smiling down at you with joy

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## rossi.45

managed a fast and loose session today to roughly check f i am good to go hunting with this load / settings

the target squares are 1 inch  . . . full value breeze running 5mph
smacked the fry pan twice to Finnish .  . all good.

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## rossi.45

first 2 of 8 shot . . 75-90 yards






all good shots . . performance was good, need some more shooting to see  if there is any advantage over the 405s

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## rossi.45

> Them's sure big Metplats Rossi, Elmer Keith will be smiling down at you with joy


just thinking out loud here Moa  . . . if i set 405grns as an upper limit for bullet weight needed to do the job and increase the width of the meplat to the max and still get reliable feeding in the lever action using paper patched bullets,

like these designs




would Elmer approve  . . .. i think so

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## Moa Hunter

I have been considering my answer before putting anything to print here rossi. For a start Elmer would approve of those Metplats. For us to have a definitive answer I think we need to go 'Cap in Hand' to Bill 999 on the first page of this thread and get some of his 500grainer's and Hollowpoint them unless he has some he's prepared earlier and is just waiting for us to ask / kneel / beg / prostrate ourselves before him etc. (which I am willing to do if required) for a comparative test.
What I have noticed with my 44 and the 300grn XTP is that if I shoot a hare at any range out to 120metres there is a loud Wohck sound as the poor creature is dramatically flattened and lays without a single twitch or movement. Often in a rigid tense unrelaxed stricken pose in death. But the same projectile on a pig can do very little. For example two wild pigs shot in the neck just behind the head with the bullet passing just above the spine ran off with heads hanging down and unable to lift them because the muscles and ligaments had been cut. One needing shot again and the other a knife behind the front leg.
I thought 'bugger this' I'll drill the Hollowpoints out a bit more with a drill bit in the case trimmer, but what horrible dry hard- to- cut stuff it is. Not what I expected for a low velocity pistol bullet. The bullets don't mushroom or even toadstool more like a 'shaggy ink cap' than a Porcini.
So for a start we need to know what the recipe is for the lead in Winchesters wonderful 22 subsonics, procure some 450 grain HP's in that lead and compare them to your 'Elmers Delights'. Looking at the Outlaw State HP's they have mushroomed really well, with a much bigger frontal area than a big metplat.

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## Moa Hunter



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## rossi.45

good on ya Moa . .  . i will give this some thought

R.

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## Friwi

You could buy a box of those 22 Winchester , remove the projectiles from the cases, melt them and cast a few big bullets and test the hardness? At 42 grains you need ten to make one of your big pill

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## Moa Hunter

Not at all a meritless idea Friwi, in fact quite obvious but something that had never occurred to my very average powered brain !! Thankyou
Earlier today (it was raining) I googled up some interesting info about shockwaves and in particular 'Bow shock' as in 'Bow wave' (as in boat) not to be confused with Robin Hood. It would appear that the large Metplat creates a wide shock-wave and this is what causes the effect on the target not a pushing of material ahead of it. There was some ambiguity in the explanation regarding subsonic as opposed to supersonic shock waves, something that we probably need Sheldon Cooper to explain.

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## rossi.45

interesring Moa . . . i was thinking about this very concept yesterday   . .. the meplat is similar in action as when you push the flat of your hand away from you in water.

plus  . . . the sharp edge disrupts / tears tissue instead of allowing it to slide past . . . sounds good anyway

just woke up thinking about part of the answer to your ealier post  . . . this is interesting

R.

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## Marty Henry

> Attachment 87478Attachment 87479


Bit of work to do there by the looks of it.
That rifle looks a bit "modified" whats the alkathene jointer nut and poly tape do, hold the foreend or something more sinister like allow the fittting of a grenade launcher?.

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## Moa Hunter

Well all my advanced secrets exposed ! The tape enhances accuracy by holding the focus on the scope in the same place and the plumbing fitting is the end result of a great deal of experimentation so no scoffing from anyone please. In unmodified original form the fore-stock is held on by a silly pin brazed to the barrel. The fore-stock holds the barrel onto the action. I shortened the fore-stock and attached the plumbing fitting with casting resin which also fills out the hollow in the short piece of f stock left. This let me have the maximus sit back as far as possible and also allows the rifle to be quickly assembled or disassembled depending on the urgency of the situation prevailing at the time. One last secret is that the but-plate is modified and held on with a spring allowing a stash of ammo to be kept inside the stock for emergencies like when a Mob is encountered.

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## Moa Hunter

Well Rossi, as it was mothers day yesterday should we all presume that you conducted these experiments in the bath with your missus, good to know you maintained focus despite potential distracting factors !!

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## Marty Henry

> Well all my advanced secrets exposed ! The tape enhances accuracy by holding the focus on the scope in the same place and the plumbing fitting is the end result of a great deal of experimentation so no scoffing from anyone please. In unmodified original form the fore-stock is held on by a silly pin brazed to the barrel. The fore-stock holds the barrel onto the action. I shortened the fore-stock and attached the plumbing fitting with casting resin which also fills out the hollow in the short piece of f stock left. This let me have the maximus sit back as far as possible and also allows the rifle to be quickly assembled or disassembled depending on the urgency of the situation prevailing at the time. One last secret is that the but-plate is modified and held on with a spring allowing a stash of ammo to be kept inside the stock for emergencies like when a Mob is encountered.


Well it certainly works!. You have a bit of dicing and slicing to do there by the looks of it.

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## rossi.45

> I have been considering my answer before putting anything to print here rossi. For a start Elmer would approve of those Metplats. For us to have a definitive answer I think we need to go 'Cap in Hand' to Bill 999 on the first page of this thread and get some of his 500grainer's and Hollowpoint them unless he has some he's prepared earlier and is just waiting for us to ask / kneel / beg / prostrate ourselves before him etc. (which I am willing to do if required) for a comparative test.
> What I have noticed with my 44 and the 300grn XTP is that if I shoot a hare at any range out to 120metres there is a loud Wohck sound as the poor creature is dramatically flattened and lays without a single twitch or movement. Often in a rigid tense unrelaxed stricken pose in death. But the same projectile on a pig can do very little. For example two wild pigs shot in the neck just behind the head with the bullet passing just above the spine ran off with heads hanging down and unable to lift them because the muscles and ligaments had been cut. One needing shot again and the other a knife behind the front leg.
> I thought 'bugger this' I'll drill the Hollowpoints out a bit more with a drill bit in the case trimmer, but what horrible dry hard- to- cut stuff it is. Not what I expected for a low velocity pistol bullet. The bullets don't mushroom or even toadstool more like a 'shaggy ink cap' than a Porcini.
> So for a start we need to know what the recipe is for the lead in Winchesters wonderful 22 subsonics, procure some 450 grain HP's in that lead and compare them to your 'Elmers Delights'. Looking at the Outlaw State HP's they have mushroomed really well, with a much bigger frontal area than a big metplat.


strange as it may seem Moa i dont want an expanding bullet, for what i want to do with the animals i target at the range i want to shoot out to there is no advantage  . . . i will leave that in your capable hands,  i just havent got the time needed to do it justice . . .  but i look forward to your results as i am sure those watching this thread will as well.

R.

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## Moa Hunter

It certainly does strike me as strange rossi and more than that may I here express my genuine heart felt disappointment that the joyous youthful desire for experimentation and advancement you once held in your breast has drained from you like the used bathwater on mothers day (this is a reference to an earlier reply for anyone reading this post in isolation) All I can do is hope that the spark is not fully extinguished.

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## rossi.45

> Attachment 87652It certainly does strike me as strange rossi and more than that may I here express my genuine heart felt disappointment that the joyous youthful desire for experimentation and advancement you once held in your breast has drained from you like the used bathwater on mothers day (this is a reference to an earlier reply for anyone reading this post in isolation) All I can do is hope that the spark is not fully extinguished.


Moa ya rascal, i shall try to explain  . . . i thought you would have guessed i am a Zealot and a folower of the only true prophet Elmer Keith & his disciple Ross Seyfield of Big Bore handgun fame . . those who use hollowpoints are heretics and should be cast out into the wilderness as were the the lowly british infidels of DumDum infamy

bit of a ramble here  . . .

the pros and cons of hollowpoints vrs BigFlatPoints at sub speed  . . to me . .  & this is opinion not facts  . . hollowpoints are for close range use, they are a negative at distance and lesson the properties of the Big Meplat   . .  my interest is to push the range out to 200-300 yards with subs using cast lead bullets  . . . i have no interest with high tech / expensive bullets.
for i dont know how many years now i have been shooting out past 300yrds with .22 subs & sub .30calibers & .45s up close - i have tried hollow points, Big, small, deep ones, split nose bullets, SWC, all sorts  . . . and eventually decided they arent for me . . . now i am trying heavier .45 bullets n the .45/70 which so far look like the answer . . for me . . but its early days.
my style of hunting is to pass on tricky shots, i will let the animal walk  . . so i don't need the extra knockdown power or insurance of a hollow point if things don't go right at close range . . plus my hit list has only lightly built animals, no pigs with shields to cause me problems.  if i did have swine on the menu my choice of bullet would be different.
it is early days . . . started with the 405s and in the last few weeks onto paper patching the 340s to see if the techeque has anything to offer, it does, i am keen now to run with that for awhile  . . . but . . i dont chase the Goats or Deer that often, once a month or even less, any meat is mostly given away.

my main interest for the last couple of years is LR varmint shooting, i love it  . .  i get out on the paddocks at least 2-3 times a week if i can which means i also spend a lot of time reloading to feed the rifles as well  . . and bless my partner she encourages me to do it.

so Moa it will be up to you to run with the HollowPoints  . . . i hope you take up the challenge & report back on your findings

R.

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## viper

Make sure you keep the LR varmint faith going Rossi, interesting thread though, I had a 44 mag once and loved it. Think it kindled a fondness for slow moving large diameter bullets.
I think the discussion on big slow moving lead vs small high speed has been around for centuries and probably always will be.

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## rossi.45

> Make sure you keep the LR varmint faith going Rossi, interesting thread though, I had a 44 mag once and loved it. Think it kindled a fondness for slow moving large diameter bullets.
> I think the discussion on big slow moving lead vs small high speed has been around for centuries and probably always will be.


no worries there  @viper . . . hitting small targets at the edge of your ability is addictive . . . in some of the best country.
i was out n about yesterday with the heavy barrel Quad using subs - today it was the .223AI - tomorrow if all the stars lineup i plan on taking the .222 out for a run, if the weather gets worse the 6mm - there is nothing better than that  . . . to me.

why wouldnt ya have a fondness for big bullets  . . its like big country girls

my biggest problem is time  . . . i dont have enough of it

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## Moa Hunter

And God so loved the man, that on the sixth day he created the Chainsaw and Gunpowder, and he saw that it was good!
Today it was, as though another hand guided mine... ( No this is about religious enlightenment you perverts) to the keys and I made a remarkable discovery. In the same way as when God gave the stone tablets inscribed with the Ten Commandments to Moses (John Moses Browning that is) I was given enlightenment when I read 'The Gospel Of Glen Fryxell' translated from the original Hebrew texts. Glens Gospel can be read by searching the following on Google 'Cast Hollowpoints the next Generation' by Glen E Fryxell.
Repent thy sins Rossi and cast the flat point no more. Elmer Keith is a disciple but not a Messiah

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## Moa Hunter

With all this talk of Zealots, Prophets, disciples and infidels from rossi and keeping the faith from viper may I humbly suggest that you two both go to YouTube and watch/listen to 'The Dead South' and their song 'In Hell I'll be In Good Company'

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## rossi.45

Bravo Moa  . . . well done, you are a scholar and almost ( but close ) to being a poet, i like your style 

i remember when i found this site . . . back in the day  . . . it was a a wahoo moment, at last real information

Cast bullet reference on lead alloy's, min / max pressure, lube, shrinkage,

and thats when i started fcking around with hollowpoints in earnest  . . . damm you LASC

now i have always said its my opinion etc etc . . . and i do think Elmer strayed from the true path for awhile, now in hindsight its obviously the devils temptation at work . . . DO NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE,  there are only tears to be had there and years of wandering in the desert . . . if you go subsonic LR . .  HPs at close range or high velocity is a different kettle of fish, which should be eaten on Fridays

one last word of warning  . . . when you feel your hand being guided be doubly on guard,  its most likely the devils work  . . say these words out loud 3 times " Elmer is my protector, i shall not stray from the true Path "
as soon as you can paint a cross over your front door in blood  . . the neighbours will be alarmed but don't worry,  you'll be the one laughing the next morning after the angels have done their nights work.

R.

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## rossi.45

> With all this talk of Zealots, Prophets, disciples and infidels from rossi and keeping the faith from viper may I humbly suggest that you two both go to YouTube and watch/listen to 'The Dead South' and their song 'In Hell I'll be In Good Company'


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9FzVhw8_bY

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## Moa Hunter

QUID PRO QUO my friend rossi. I fear you may have bested me in this exchange.

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## rossi.45

> QUID PRO QUO my friend rossi. I fear you may have bested me in this exchange.


no way brother  . . . your holding your own

i was driving back from the farm this arvo thinking its a very good thing for this thread if you have 2, or even better, a few shooters trying to accomplish different things with this cartridge.
it was always my intention to keep this thread going over time as new developments occurred  . . . so i hope that you do stay on hollowpoints for awhile Moa and see how they work for your style of hunting/shooting and report back here, you never know i might even turn to the darkside if your results are convincing.

R.

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## pope2506

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9FzVhw8_bY



brillant, loved "that bastard son"

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## 223nut

Moa hunter and Rossi, love the banter this is the way the forum should operate. Everyone one has their opinions and ideas just love the way you are having a go at each other without any offence or bad feelings.

Think a 45/70 single shot will be the next big purchase...

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## Huk

> brillant, loved "that bastard son"


+++++5 good stuff :Cool:  :Cool:

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## Friwi

I have suppressed a Bergara barrel in 45/70 this avo.it is a take down model. It is quite cool, it comes at 20" long and factory threaded at 5/8-24. I cut it down a little bit and rethreaded at 18x1 which leave more meat and fitted an overbarrel suppressor magnum on it.

Just a quick picture.

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## Moa Hunter

Hi Friwi, great choice of cal and shooter.It is warming to think that the contributors to this thread may have helped guide you !

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## rossi.45

very cool Friwi  . . . what optic are you going to use

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## Moa Hunter

> Bravo Moa  . . . well done, you are a scholar and almost ( but close ) to being a poet, i like your style 
> 
> i remember when i found this site . . . back in the day  . . . it was a a wahoo moment, at last real information
> 
> Cast bullet reference on lead alloy's, min / max pressure, lube, shrinkage,
> 
> and thats when i started fcking around with hollowpoints in earnest  . . . damm you LASC
> 
> now i have always said its my opinion etc etc . . . and i do think Elmer strayed from the true path for awhile, now in hindsight its obviously the devils temptation at work . . . DO NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE,  there are only tears to be had there and years of wandering in the desert . . . if you go subsonic LR . .  HPs at close range or high velocity is a different kettle of fish, which should be eaten on Fridays
> ...


Dear Rossi to further my understanding of the Gospels, I have finished reading two of Ross Seyfield's writings translated from the original Greek of 45/70 AD. I don't wish to appear overly pious however, Ross does speak of "coveting" a certain firearm. As we both know, 'To Covet' is to break a commandment, the tenth to be precise. If that wasn't bad enough he owned a Colt 45 Peacemaker which we also both know is referred to as 'The Devils Right Hand' by Steve Earl in his inspired Gospel writings known today as the 'Copperhead Road album' and I quote "Nothing touched the trigger but the devils right hand" So Rossi, please don't like Lot's wife at Soddom and Gomorah look back at the flatpoints you have left behind but instead look forward to the bright future, a 450 grn HP 10% Tin shining in Gods enlightenment lest you too be turned to a pillar of salt.

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## Friwi

It is not mine but a customer's one who probably share the same religion as you two guys :-)
I am more modern, playing with  a 458 socom ;-)

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## Moa Hunter

> brillant, loved "that bastard son"


How outstanding, the Pope is tuned to the same music I love and I'm not even Catholic. Although sinful to admit, the chorus line in 'That Bastard Son' of "I just want liquor and dirty whores " is quite appealing. Just make sure you don't get caught singing it round the house !! Then there's the chorus line to Banjo Odyssey " I guess that she's my cousin but she needs some sweet lovin anyway" Darn good band to listen to whilst working on gun projects.

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## rossi.45

> It is not mine but a customer's one who probably share the same religion as you two guys :-)
> I am more modern, playing with  a 458 socom ;-)


its a nice looking rig and threading/crown job  . . . looking at the suppressor i am thinkin he might want to consider another 3 modules, mine needed them to get decent noise reduction.

458 socom has such a cool name  . . . just saying it makes ya think of Special Ops etc

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## rossi.45

> Dear Rossi to further my understanding of the Gospels, I have finished reading two of Ross Seyfield's writings translated from the original Greek of 45/70 AD. I don't wish to appear overly pious however, Ross does speak of "coveting" a certain firearm. As we both know, 'To Covet' is to break a commandment, the tenth to be precise. If that wasn't bad enough he owned a Colt 45 Peacemaker which we also both know is referred to as 'The Devils Right Hand' by Steve Earl in his inspired Gospel writings known today as the 'Copperhead Road album' and I quote "Nothing touched the trigger but the devils right hand" So Rossi, please don't like Lot's wife at Soddom and Gomorah look back at the flatpoints you have left behind but instead look forward to the bright future, a 450 grn HP 10% Tin shining in Gods enlightenment lest you too be turned to a pillar of salt.


now i dont think its Cricket Moa to imply with biblical references that somehow your adversary " Plays for the Other team " so to speak, even if its a rather vague reference . . . am i taking this out of context,   definitely,   desperate times call for desparate measures.

anyway . . . 

i do think that anything over 405grns. is getting into Cape Buffalo territory  . . . animals in NZ just arent that Big and tough to need more bullet weight, 400 is overkill now.

ramble alert  . . .

last time i went up the Hill with my Son to show him how the .45/70 is working, he has seen the .30cals in action so kinda knew what to expect  . . . he was amazed at the power of the .45cal 340s
they didnt fall down they were smashed down, the Big Billy was hit front on and his chest collapsed in on itself, fast, like being hit with a sledgehammer . . the others were side on shoots with full thru n thru penetration with bullets hitting the rocks behind them with a SMACK  . . . seriously dude i dont think you need another 100+ grains

but you want what you want, but talking time is over  . . . " lets get it on "  . . . get those bullets and get out there, do whats needed to make it happen.


i know i won't be doing any work with the .45 for a few months at least, busy trying to get the last diehard Rabbits cleanned up over the Winter, i have shot most of the stupid/unlucky ones . . . as a bonus i have the .223 setup finally sorted with its own scope ( VX3  4.5-14 Varmint Ret ) which is now a machine

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## 223nut

Rossi how come you can't use the. 45 on the bunnies.... Would turn into instant fertiliser  :O O:

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## rossi.45

> Rossi how come you can't use the. 45 on the bunnies.... Would turn into instant fertiliser


never thought of it to be honest 223  . . . . Moa describes the results with a .44 on Hares so a .45 should work fine

which brings me to another ramble alert . . .   

to me shooting Hares/Rabbits etc to get your eye in with a rifle setup is a great idea . . . if you can hit a little critter at 100+ yards your good to go on bigger game,  move the range out to when you cant hit them, you have learnt something important then.

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## rossi.45

as an interesting historical note  . . . as Elmer is credited with the .44mag

Ross Seyfield did a lot to bring the .475 Linebaugh & the man to the publics attention thru his writing in GUNS & AMMO  . . . back in the day.
i can remember well the look of the BIG bullets he was using . . . there is nodoubt from that time on i was a convert.
in some ways i consider myself lucky to have observed the steady rise of the BIG bores  . . . bless the US for all its faults it has given us some great toys to play with. 

ramble over  . . . R

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## Moa Hunter

> never thought of it to be honest 223  . . . . Moa describes the results with a .44 on Hares so a .45 should work fine
> 
> which brings me to another ramble alert . . .   
> 
> to me shooting Hares/Rabbits etc to get your eye in with a rifle setup is a great idea . . . if you can hit a little critter at 100+ yards your good to go on bigger game,  move the range out to when you cant hit them, you have learnt something important then.


Dear Rossi and 223nut, I did have the 44 zeroed at 100 mtrs but found that I would over-shoot big game animals because of excitement and rushing whereas Hares I would never miss. What I have done is re-sight the 44 dead on at 60 mtrs exactly the same as the 22 with subs. So now the shooting that I do with the 22 is directly transferable practice for the 44 if that makes sense. I would be very interested in what range rossi has found works best. I shoot over a dog for big game and rabbits.

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## Moa Hunter

> now i dont think its Cricket Moa to imply with biblical references that somehow your adversary " Plays for the Other team " so to speak, even if its a rather vague reference . . . am i taking this out of context,   definitely,   desperate times call for desparate measures.
> 
> anyway . . . 
> 
> i do think that anything over 405grns. is getting into Cape Buffalo territory  . . . animals in NZ just arent that Big and tough to need more bullet weight, 400 is overkill now.
> 
> ramble alert  . . .
> 
> last time i went up the Hill with my Son to show him how the .45/70 is working, he has seen the .30cals in action so kinda knew what to expect  . . . he was amazed at the power of the .45cal 340s
> ...


Dear rossi, you are 'straw clutching' at best and we both know it. To even hint that my reference to Lot's wife carried a tiny suggestion of getting your targets confused. We are both men of Honor and I would never stoop to such tactics. You are capable of much better humor filled retorts. 
As to Buffalo, I owned the biggest herd of Nth American Bison in NZ for a while (50 animals) and I can state with my hand on a stack of Bibles that a 300 grn XTP at 1025 fps is not enough for a bison. In fact a 405 grn at sub velocities would not be enough. At higher velocity yes. And while I am on this bit about Bison there are no doubt blokes reading this and wondering 'why so much religion boys' well guess the full name of the chap who made the Sharps Rifles - Christian Sharps !! So Rossi and I haven't  started something, we are just following those who have gone before.
My thoughts on bullet weight and performance are thus: We want stopping power and trajectory and subsonic quietness. Velocity with subs is a constant, we cant increase velocity for more target energy and a flatter trajectory. A long high BC bullet will give us a bit better trajectory and retained energy. So Hollowpointing allows a projectile to be made longer at the same weight. I think the Outlaw State designs probably have it for big diameter calibers. Look at some of those LeHigh subsonic bullets all Hollowpoints. The other important matter is energy transfer. My 300 grn XTP's will pass through like your 405's on fallow and small pigs which means that we are not achieving the optimum shock wave effect in the game. We all want humane quick kills. Here is an example to consider, I remember reading about the bloke who developed the 220 swift. He machined up some solids ( to withstand the velocity) for testing on rabbits. A feeding rabbit was selected, at the first shot the rabbit paused and then continued feeding, at the second shot it laid its ears flat, the third shot was with a projectile that had grooves machined in it, the rabbit was cut in half. All shots hit the target. I would like to achieve that 'instant rigor' effect I described happens with Hares and Paradise rabbits, or as near as could be.
PS if you are interested I have a 2506 AI that is very effective on 'the last rabbits' you are welcome to borrow

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## Friwi

I wonder if longer bullets with hollow points don't imply a slightly faster twist rate for stability?
The top black powder silhouette shooters in the USA are now using Krieger barrels with 1 in 17 or 1 in 16" twist ( I believe) with 500+ grains bullets in their "45" rifles. I ll try to dig out the articles from Mike Venturino on that subject.

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## rossi.45

this may be of interest to those who are looking for the perfect cast bullet . . online bullet design by mountainmolds.com

top left of the page is the place to start . . . its pritty cool

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## rossi.45

> @rossi.45 how quite is your 45/70 have a new one coming will have a dpt magnum with a stainless blast baffle as well as all the standard baffles greg at custom guns can source 405gr cast lead projectiles cheap for a subsonic load using trailboss. going to have a vx freedom 1.5 to4 scope with a mil dial and extra cross hairs on it.


i am very happy with the noise reduction of the DPT as it is . . . so often ya hear how loud the big bores are going to be compared to smaller calibers ( obviously theyre going to be ) but personally i think its overstated, maybe their expectations were to high to start with . . .  would be interesting if someone would keep adding baffles to see how it would go.

i can remember Greg showing me the 405s he had  . . . look forward to getting your opinion on how they go on paper & animals

also look forward to how the scope works out   . . . R

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## Boar Freak

> i am very happy with the noise reduction of the DPT as it is . . . so often ya hear how loud the big bores are going to be compared to smaller calibers ( obviously theyre going to be ) but personally i think its overstated, maybe their expectations were to high to start with . . .  would be interesting if someone would keep adding baffles to see how it would go.
> 
> i can remember Greg showing me the 405s he had  . . . look forward to getting your opinion on how they go on paper & animals
> 
> also look forward to how the scope works out   . . . R


I wanted to ask this too @rossi.45 . Using subs is it hearing safe or you still need hearing protection?

Poured some lead this week into the new to me RCBS 405 using straight WW. Was surprised to get projectiles in the 428-430gr range. Wasn't expecting this much difference compared to #2 alloy. Couldn't check diameter as my son used my digital caliper as a hammer to bang a nail back on the deck so its poked now. Toddlers and precision tools aren't a good mix.

----------


## rossi.45

@Boar Freak i would describe the noise levels when i am aiming away from bush or anything that will reflect the noise as a booomff sound, not much louder than my .30 caliber subs.
definitely louder in the scrub or aiming towards a hillside etc  . . . but not annoying or troublesome to Dogs who are use to gunfire.

never checked the weight of any bullets . . .  i have a good casting techneque now and close inspection of every bullet sorts out the obvious problems, if they dont look perfect they go back in the pot . . . if i was going longer range i maybe would. 

your Son sounds like a rascal  . . . bless 
lets hope the bullet is at least 1 or 2 thou over groove diameter 

look forward to hearing how you get on with the 405s  . . . . it is one good lookin bullet

R

----------


## Moa Hunter

> this may be of interest to those who are looking for the perfect cast bullet . . online bullet design by mountainmolds.com
> 
> top left of the page is the place to start . . . its pritty cool
> 
> Attachment 88472


I stood, waited, stroke of twelve at crossroads
Song by the 'Kongos' played to my fear
'Come with me now' 'Come with me now'

Ready to sell my soul tonight, perfect cast bullets my sought plight.
But just as 'they' said, the Devil wouldn't even take a Bite.
"Where's your guitar ? I've brought mine - boy- lets play.
I'll make thee the best there is for thy soul.

It's not for to play that I come here tonight but perfect bullets are my trade.
"Perfect bullets for a soul... in this box you might find..., but sign you must before you look!"
Just in time decision not made,
Elmer is my Proctor
I turned and walked away

----------


## Micky Duck

oh great and wise ones I hope you dont object to me injecting my humble opinion on your findings????
I do not own one of the great black hole barrels like your most worthy selves merely a humble chinese made rifle in a cartridge designed by a russian fella for to be made by the people ofr the people to kill the people...but maybe that would lead one to think of its big brother round not the humble x39 I cart around....
Ive tried many supersonic rounds and yip at close range they do the job no complaints
my subsonic loads use Roberts great 151grn hoho hollowpoints which look and behave pretty much like the before mentioned winchester subs...which reminds me you DONT need to melt .22lr rounds down to find hardness...it can be done with pencils from the stationary shop..... different hardness pencils will and wont mark different hardness cast lead (google is your friend)
because I dont have access to goat shooting 90% of the sub loads fired have either been plinking or hares...with the important/relevant ones being to kill my house muttons wandering around in paddock 30-50 yards.... to gain expansion/limit penertration I used old school trick and got out stanley knife and cut four slits down the tip /devided into quarters if you like... about 3-4mm deep/down into projectile sides..... so far Ive only managed to recover one and it measures 14mm wide so close to double diameter.
it will work with the 44mag moa hunter mentioned before but the law of unforeseen circumstances comes into play and may indeed OVEREXPAND at high velocity.you could also insert/glue a single steel shotgun pellet into cavity to assist expansion starting(#2 works perfectly in 151s) the theory isnt new as its what the fancy plastic bit on ballistic tips does.

----------


## rossi.45

ordered these 2 molds today  . . . the 360grn. (left) is i think about as big a flatpoint (meplat) which is practical for feeding in the Marlin, time will tell, may have to single feed . . . the 405grn. (right) is the backup plan, both will be paper patched.

these bullet designs are closer to my idea of ideal . . BIG flatpoints to smash into the animal with enough weight to drive thru the animal from any angle, no expansion required . . we will see

----------


## Araspring

@rossi.45 you may have mentioned earlier in the thread but cant seem to find it, what sort of alloy are you casting with for your wide meplat bullets?
Assuming your having good success with little expansion the alloy could be quite hard?
Thanks

----------


## rossi.45

> @rossi.45 you may have mentioned earlier in the thread but cant seem to find it, what sort of alloy are you casting with for your wide meplat bullets?
> Assuming your having good success with little expansion the alloy could be quite hard?
> Thanks


at the moment 25% wheelweights / 75% pure lead 

ramble alert.

i dont look or plan for expansion with cast bullets anymore, its a deadend road to me  . . . the question is why i wouldnt want expansion when it sems to be a mantra to so many shooters

the easy/quick answer is its not worth the effort and the choices you end up making to get it for the animals i target at the ranges i want to shoot out to. . . better to rely on more reliable/repeatable performance with good bullet design, accurate bullet placement . . . thats the direction i am travel in, so far its working OK and i plan to run with it for awhile longer and see where it goes.

----------


## Moa Hunter

[ATTACH]89205
This is only a three year old bull, a really big mature one will go 7 feet at the hump

----------


## homebrew.357

Bloody hell,!!, where's my Sharps!!.  :Psmiley:

----------


## Micky Duck

poohseventy with 170grn speers-------.308 with 180grn maybe????
in shadow of horn or....... level with same JUST right of the light coloured fur where it goes sort of chocolate like but is still long??????
yip the sharps would just feel right/correct.

----------


## 223nut

12gauge with solids...

----------


## csmiffy

416 rem mag. don't know whether solids or softs

----------


## rossi.45

> [ATTACH]89205
> This is only a three year old bull, a really big mature one will go 7 feet at the hump


i know how big they are face to face  . . . back in the day when visiting an animal park a BIG old grumpy Bull Bison took exception to me looking at him, wanted to get thru a fence to get at my mothers youngest son, very impressive animal, surprised how tall they were.

but  . . . they're not bullet proof 
watch this clip if you want to see a .45/70 with 405grn bullets do the business
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkssHWWJWjk

 . . . or even arrow proof
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yce8rhHpm4

----------


## Moa Hunter

> i know how big they are face to face  . . . back in the day when visiting an animal park a BIG old grumpy Bull Bison took exception to me looking at him, wanted to get thru a fence to get at my mothers youngest son, very impressive animal, surprised how tall they were.
> 
> but  . . . they're not bullet proof 
> watch this clip if you want to see a .45/70 with 405grn bullets do the business
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkssHWWJWjk
> 
>  . . . or even arrow proof
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yce8rhHpm4


Ahh, good on ya Rossi. I looked at both those clips and the first animal was pole axed for sure but then he was only a two year old meat job and probably a steer by the looks. Don't know why they shot him twice. Always hard to tell when listening to gun shots and not seeing the gun but would it be a fair guess that they weren't subs?? The second animal with the bow was a nice three year type and things went just as you would expect with a bow. There was another clip following I saw with a bison hunt 2015. A good sized bull was shot with a big pill out of a 30 06 and it just broke the right shoulder and the bull was left hobbling round waiting to be finished.
When the skin hunters were operating from camps on the red river and in the Texas Panhandle migration, the shooter would ride out and shoot animals on the edge of the herd from horseback ( not wanting to push the main bulk of the herd on or away which would draw the shot animals away too). They would shoot them in the heart / lungs and by the time the shooter had a dozen shot the first ones would be falling over. The skinners would then come out with a wagon and peel em as the herd grazed away from the fallen.
The best place I found to shoot big ones was in the Atlas joint ( where the first vertebrae meets the skull ) Those big bulls are seriously tough and strong. The bones are massive and the muscle and cartilage protecting the chest is like armour and not like domestic cattle. Those horns are for fighting and sharp yet a bull never gets poked by a horn in the neck / shoulder / chest. The hide and muscle is just too tough. Anyway if I were using subs in my 45/70 short ( when I get it finished ) to shoot a serious bison I would be looking for a 600 grainer- with a Big Metplat !!
Confessional, The poem was a way of thanking you for saving my soul. Did you listen to the Kongos ??

----------


## rossi.45

there are no Bison where i live, a few Reds, Fallow and Goats about which i will concentrate on in this thread . . . i will leave the Bison to you Moa 

R.

----------


## Moa Hunter

Fair enough Rossi, but it was one of us who introduced the Bison Factor by writing that a 45/70 could shoot clear through one and I don't remember it being me.

----------


## Micky Duck

have you lads contemplated rolling your own black powder to go with this????

----------


## Jit

> I have suppressed a Bergara barrel in 45/70 this avo.it is a take down model. It is quite cool, it comes at 20" long and factory threaded at 5/8-24. I cut it down a little bit and rethreaded at 18x1 which leave more meat and fitted an overbarrel suppressor magnum on it.
> Attachment 87787
> Just a quick picture.


I did exactly the same. Topped off with a vortex 1-6  viper gen2. Nice but kinda heavy. 
Recoil with 325ftx @ 2300 ahh erm , interesting.....

----------


## Moa Hunter

They are a nice unit the Bergara's. Will you be firing heavy subs as well ?

----------


## Jit

I reckon I'll get there. It's inevitable. I reload -45/70 but Id rather not roll my own projectiles as I've already hot 5 other calibres I reload for. 
Can one purhase or acquire good lead projectiles in NZ. 500gr lead at 1000 Fps sounds awesome.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> I reckon I'll get there. It's inevitable. I reload -45/70 but Id rather not roll my own projectiles as I've already hot 5 other calibres I reload for. 
> Can one purhase or acquire good lead projectiles in NZ. 500gr lead at 1000 Fps sounds awesome.


One of the blokes in an earlier part of this thread had a mold for 500's. I know that 405 is the standard and the deal that berg 243 mentions is very good, but doing a bit of a mental calculation a 405 will only have a muzzle energy of 1000 foot pounds and compared to my 44 with 300grns (muzzle 700 fp @ 1020 fps) I don't know if it is enough of a step up. For my new project gun I am looking for some 500 grn hp's myself right now too. It is an interesting debate over the Hp or big Metplat. My conclusion after looking at youtube big bore air rifles and tests on Black powder arms - minie balls etc is that if the projectile is 'long for calibre' and made of a lead /tin mix it can have both good expansion and penetration. Did you blokes have a look at the Outlaw State website ??

----------


## Marty Henry

The extra 500 grains going from 405 to 500 will only give an extra 100 or so fps keeping velocity the same. Cast lead at subsonic velocities behaves differently to what you would expect using the supersonic jacketed bullets rules of thumb. Everything Ive read about and seen happen with big cast bullets relates to meplat being the major consideration and not foot pounds. Hollow points often dont open up unless bone is hit, and a solid lead flat point will also deform quite nicely in this case. I shoot the lee flat base 405 in my trapdoor both for target and the occasional hunt. I think its a bit too easy to overthink things. Ive done that myself on numerous occasions end result a long trip back to where I started. Try the 405s get familiar and go from there.

----------


## Moa Hunter

Don't worry MH I have already been over thinking, complicating and driving myself crazy. I even suggested a song to Rossi by the 'Kongos' that I have been listening to which says' I think I nearly thought myself to death etc'. The extra 100 grns will give around 230 foot pounds more energy but more importantly gives length to the projectile, which in a soft projectile with a Hollow point will help hold it together I believe. In the 44 (.429) the 300grainers are too short but heavier than 340 won't stabilise. I am sure that you and Rossi are quite right that a 405 is heavy enough with a big metplat bullet but for a hollow point a 500 might well be better. The performance of 60 grain Aguila 22 ammo compared to 40 grain Win is something that I have considered as a reference.

----------


## Friwi

I am going to disgrace a bit here, but have you guys seen the new ruger number 1 in 450 bushmaster with its 1 in 10" twist barrel?
https://ruger.com/products/no1/specSheets/21304.html

----------


## Moa Hunter

That is not to digress at all Friwi, a very interesting and handsome gun indeed. The Ruger is though much too nice of a rifle to be let fall into grubby hands like mine own that would shorten the barrel and ruin it's classic lines and commit all sorts of mortal sins and blasphemous acts with suppressors and the like.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> if the ruger was a bit cheaper that would have been what I would have done.


If you are the type of person who would chop the barrel on a Ruger No.1 and fit a suppressor then I can only say that you have an impure mind and need help and soon, Berg. I hope this is not what you actually meant ??.

----------


## Friwi

With a 20" barrel already threaded, I would leave it at that first to try it and see how she behave. Then I would consider maybe shortening the barrel and rethreading.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> With a 20" barrel already threaded, I would leave it at that first to try it and see how she behave. Then I would consider maybe shortening the barrel and rethreading.


Blasphemy Friwi ! Whilst cutting the barrel on a No 1 might be legal in this country, it is morally wrong and should not be allowed !!

----------


## rossi.45

mold blocks arrived . . .

----------


## Jit

> guy in Invercargill casts 405gr lead for about 20 cents a projectile.will be what I will try first may hollow point them before loading them to see if that's any extra advantage .


Got any deets?

----------


## Jit

> yep nice as it is I like the ease of a short barrel with a suppressor for bush hunting.new bergara is getting chopped so the dpt magnum suppressor will be about 10mm off touching fore end think the barrel will be around 14 inches long.


Mine is 18in long. And DPT got the supressor to within 1mm of the foreend.

----------


## Jit



----------


## rossi.45

last of the 340grn. PaperPatched bullets used today - 111yrds ambushed a group of 8 Goats shooting up at an angle . . no Deer seen

nanny




Billy


all bang flops . . .

dont know if anyone saw the .50S&W Contender on TM . . it got pulled by TM for some reason . . but if it comes back can someone buy it, i would but a BIG spend up on optics / project rifle means i cant . . sadly

----------


## Micky Duck

that looks ever so gory.....good shit bud keep up the good work.

----------


## mawzer308

Nice shooting Rossi, impressive damage at subsonic velocities! Must get around to buying some trailboss and running some in mine.

----------


## Smiddy

Looks impressive, now to upsize and shoot a couple of stags,  watching with intent 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## rossi.45

> that looks ever so gory.....good shit bud keep up the good work.


just a bit gory  . . . i wouldnt put it on Facebook  

that old saying a picture is better than a thousand words comes to mind  . . it is a graphic demonstration of what a Big Flatpoint can do even when its traveled some distance and lost some of what little speed it started with.   
its not some super slippery AMax, more a flying brick, so some people won't be beleivers unless you show them the pics . . . . & even then some wont get it.
if i have time i will try for to put the bullet thru a leg bone  . . .  its not a must but it sure helps if you can to do maximum damage.

R.

----------


## rossi.45

a bit off topic  . . .  that 50 S&W contender i mentioned earlier thats on TM has certainly got my interest, some seriously BIG bullets / designs / molds out there that may work in it.





its not a bad lookn rifle  . . . be even better with a dialup scope / surpressor

----------


## Micky Duck

looking at that rifle it just screams great bush gun as it is.....might be quieter than expected stranger things have been known to happen.

----------


## Barefoot

Took the 45/70 to work today to check some new loads.
Got a much earlier test than expected when 3 of these guys came wandering down the road I was checking for slip and water damage.



14.6gn trail boss behind 345gn cast was giving 1075fps

----------


## Micky Duck

plurry AWESOME way to test her out.......make sure to have apple sauce on hand for the juicy roast pork....
now I really really want one.

----------


## Araspring

After being inspired by @rossi.45 and this thread I have got the big and slow bug.
Got a mold from CBE in Australia and cast up these 405 grain bullets after doing quite a bit of reading and research;

Loaded up a batch with 13 grains of Trailboss and got them going 990fps.
Went for a walk today and got a young fallow for the freezer, was only a 45 yard shot but dropped instantly.


Not real happy with the red dot so have got a leupold 4x33 with CDS turret coming and will get a suppressor put on once I have a few dollars saved up

----------


## Marty Henry

> Took the 45/70 to work today to check some new loads.
> Got a much earlier test than expected when 3 of these guys came wandering down the road I was checking for slip and water damage.
> 
> Attachment 91480
> 
> 14.6gn trail boss behind 345gn cast was giving 1075fps


Tripped up by a trapdoor, brilliant.

----------


## rossi.45

well done @Araspring  . . that is one good lookn bullet / Sledgehammer

scope choice sounds good  . . wonder if Leupold would put a mildot reticle in that model.

probably should have a discussion on scope choices for subs at some stage.

R.

----------


## Araspring

> well done @Araspring  . . that is one good lookn bullet / Sledgehammer
> 
> scope choice sounds good  . . wonder if Leupold would put a mildot reticle in that model.
> 
> probably should have a discussion on scope choices for subs at some stage.
> 
> R.


Yes a mildot would be nice!
I was having a hard time deciding what to put on it but the Leupold came up on Trademe and should do the job for now

----------


## Moa Hunter

I am wondering what scope to put on my 45/70 short. The 44 has a 4x32 Kahles with the very heavy outer crosshairs and that scope is great for quick target acquisition. I have been looking at the Leupold freedoms too and they have a 'black powder' reticle with heavy outer crosshairs and a sort of mill dot / drop lines system. Would a fixed 6x power be the go for accurate shooting to use alongside a rangefinder ?? Thoughts ??

----------


## Jit

> I am wondering what scope to put on my 45/70 short. The 44 has a 4x32 Kahles with the very heavy outer crosshairs and that scope is great for quick target acquisition. I have been looking at the Leupold freedoms too and they have a 'black powder' reticle with heavy outer crosshairs and a sort of mill dot / drop lines system. Would a fixed 6x power be the go for accurate shooting to use alongside a rangefinder ?? Thoughts ??


Hi I have a 1-6. I recommend a 1-4 or 1-6 with a nice quick reticle or illumination even better.  Good for close up shot gun style but also for 200m if the opportunity presents.

----------


## rossi.45

> I am wondering what scope to put on my 45/70 short. The 44 has a 4x32 Kahles with the very heavy outer crosshairs and that scope is great for quick target acquisition. I have been looking at the Leupold freedoms too and they have a 'black powder' reticle with heavy outer crosshairs and a sort of mill dot / drop lines system. Would a fixed 6x power be the go for accurate shooting to use alongside a rangefinder ?? Thoughts ??


finally got around to looking at the Leupold Freedom range of scopes,  the 1.5-4X20 with the Ballistic Reticle & dialable looks good   @berg243 . . . look forward to seeing how you go with it.

fixed 6X scope was a good start for me Moa . . . 200, 300 yard shooting a 6inch square plate wasn't a problem with my Marlin .30/30 with subs . . . magnification is still low enough that close range shooting wasnt a problem & it had enough magnification to make  +200 yard hits on Goats & 1 unlucky Deer doable.

----------


## Jit

Im looking for any advice on subsonic 400gr jacketed rounds. Ive got trail boss but most info is based on lead projectiles.

----------


## Micky Duck

> I’m looking for any advice on subsonic 400gr jacketed rounds. I’ve got trail boss but most info is based on lead projectiles.


ADI website...have to look around a bit to find it but single action rifle loads is where its at....heaps of great info there..trail boss ar2206 ar2208 three powders that popped out at me. looks to be very easy to go subsonic ..... oops just spotted the jacketed bit.... main screen will give infor on jacketed stuff. you could always use jacketed info/data as starting point.it wont be that far off.

----------


## Jit

Cheers. For my Begara 45/70 I Cooked up a 400gr Speer jacketed load with trail boss. 

1000fps , gentle on the shoulder and sub minute groups. 
Nice contrast to my 2200fps load.....

----------


## Micky Duck

right you lot its far past time for an update of this thread...hop to it LOL.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hun...1813454463.htm 
why hasnt someone bought this yet?????

price sure is reasonable.

----------


## john m

Something a little different. Neck shot 400gr Speer at mv 1677, it will make a nice rug.

----------


## Micky Duck

is that an old greenriver bushmans friend I spy?????
I take it thats a lama lama rather than the usual dama dama we have been seeing in this thread???

----------


## john m

1 out of 2
Lama's smaller cousin.

----------


## Micky Duck

and the black plastic handled knife????? bushmans friend or the boning one they replaced it with????

----------


## Marty Henry

> 1 out of 2
> Lama's smaller cousin.Attachment 97587


Hope you like neck chops because there looks to be a few. Actually its quite tasty should be quite a bit of steak there as well.

----------


## john m

2yr old a lot smaller with his coat off will be prime eating.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> 2yr old a lot smaller with his coat off will be prime eating.
> Attachment 97591


Looks like someone's dog has already had a chew on that neck

----------


## john m

That was Ol Henry the 45-70, just about took the head right off with no blood shot meat.Through the scope I saw a big glob of red fly out the back and the head snapped back as he dropped.

----------


## rossi.45

> Something a little different . . .
> Attachment 97582


" something a little different " is the Biggest understatement i have heard in a very long time @john m

nothing on Goggle for Llama/Alpacka Hunting or Shooting  . . . you Sir are an innovator  . . maybe . . only time will tell.
also couldn't help but notice how many of the critters are on lifestyle blocks on the way home from Wanaka yesterday . . could be opportunities there but not sure how to approach any owners

----------


## rossi.45

i havent done much with the big .45 for awhile  . . . cast some of the new 360s & 405s
the flat point is noticeably wider than the older designs 





ran into accuracy problems with both bullets  . . . good out to 75yrds which is a bit limiting but good enough around here to take out for a walk

shot 6-8 Goats with each bullet . . i was expecting better results than i got, damage was no better than earlier hits with the original 405grn. & definitely less than the 340s, 
why that is i dont know . . . wish i had some balistic gell and a high speed camera to see whats going on.

----------


## john m

Just for MICKEY DUCK my proper working knifes

I blued the new plastic ones for rust protection

There is a good chance alpaca farmers will be happy to get rid of surplus bucks how you do it is up to you.
Taste between beef/sheep mild flavour we ate the hart sliced thin dusted in seasoned flour and fried as part of our meal last night YUM.
The rest is in the chiller to be butchered next weekend.

----------


## Micky Duck

awesome man...my old eyes wasnt decievin me..... had one just like the 3rd in the line up for years,was my pig sticker and sheep knife...used it for everything then gave away to mate. got a couple of older wooden handle jobbies similar to yours and they get used more often than not when dealing to house mutton hanging in garage.

----------


## csmiffy

> awesome man...my old eyes wasnt decievin me..... had one just like the 3rd in the line up for years,was my pig sticker and sheep knife...used it for everything then gave away to mate. got a couple of older wooden handle jobbies similar to yours and they get used more often than not when dealing to house mutton hanging in garage.


 @mickey Duck Yup I got one just like the one you mentioned. Good idea about the bluing too @john m that 45/70 a S/S synthetic? the one on the drums in the background?

----------


## john m

Hard chrome and dark stained hardwood.

----------


## mawzer308

She's a beauty @john m , is that a vx Freedom on top, how do you find it?

----------


## john m

Yes vx freedom it is clear and adjusted easy.I like the all weather feature of the finish of this Henry.

----------


## Micky Duck

I like the magazine dropping out like .22lrs so you dont have to cycle all rounds out of action....first time Ive seen that on a centrefire.....

----------


## matto1234

Any idea how fast a 385 grain cast is going with 14gr of trailboss behind it?

----------


## rossi.45

> Any idea how fast a 385 grain cast is going with 14gr of trailboss behind it?


400s were doing 950fps with 14grns TB in mine  . . . R

----------


## A330driver

Just picked up one of these......not going to reload.....want to use off the shelf ammo ....any suggestions.....thanks in advance
.....also,still legal in kiwi right?????

Henry .45-70 Lever Action Rifle .45-70 Government 22" Octagon Barrel 4 Rounds Brass Receiver Adjustable Buckhorn Rear/Brass Bead Front Walnut Stock/Forend Blued Barrel

----------


## ebf

@A330driver, you still legal.

45/70 factory ammo is fairly mild for the most part, they need to cater for trapdoor etc

The "cowboy" loads are nice and mild. 400gr doing anywhere from 1000 to 1200

2 options in Hornady Leverevolution, 250 gr and 325, both doing around 2000 fps. The 325 has significantly more recoil.

And there are some what I would call medium loads like Winchester SuperX 300 @ 1880

You'd have a lot more choice in the states, some interesting +P factory options there.

----------


## A330driver

Thanks mate... looking at the Hornady 325

----------


## john m

WE NEED A PHOTO

----------


## A330driver

> WE NEED A PHOTO


Firstly mate... thanks for reply ,great info ,will find out re yr concern.... looking Fwd to shooting it.... out of the country so will post photo when I get a chance,still in the box..... couple of suggestions here already so will act on the information

----------


## ebf

The hot stuff in America is sold under Grizzly and Buffalo Bore brands  :Thumbsup: 

For what it is worth, all 3 mates of mine who shoot factory 45/70 seem to use Hornady 325 Leverevolution...

----------


## A330driver

Shot her for the first time ....bloody beautiful,325 grain as suggested,.....burger all kick,but a noisy bitch!!!!!

----------


## ebf

She is a beauty  :Thumbsup:

----------


## A330driver

> She is a beauty


This type of gun Im unfamiliar with... the advice is appreciated....it is a beast... bought 200 rounds of yr suggestion for $300... not cheap really,but what a pleasure to shoot

----------


## john m

shooting a 45-70 puts a smile on my face every time.

----------


## Micky Duck

bump so @Coote can have a read.

----------


## Jit

45/70 is just ridiculous. And fun. Im glad I owned and loaded for one. 

Literally pole axes animals. Subs gets for the kids with serous power and .5moa. Full power rounds enough for buffalo.

----------


## Coote

Thanks Micky, this is an inspiring thread.  Dang there are some humorous characters here.

----------


## A330driver

Thanks mate... looking at the Hornady 325

----------


## john m

WE NEED A PHOTO

----------


## A330driver

> WE NEED A PHOTO


Firstly mate... thanks for reply ,great info ,will find out re yr concern.... looking Fwd to shooting it.... out of the country so will post photo when I get a chance,still in the box..... couple of suggestions here already so will act on the information

----------


## ebf

The hot stuff in America is sold under Grizzly and Buffalo Bore brands  :Thumbsup: 

For what it is worth, all 3 mates of mine who shoot factory 45/70 seem to use Hornady 325 Leverevolution...

----------


## A330driver

Shot her for the first time ....bloody beautiful,325 grain as suggested,.....burger all kick,but a noisy bitch!!!!!

----------


## ebf

She is a beauty  :Thumbsup:

----------


## A330driver

> She is a beauty


This type of gun Im unfamiliar with... the advice is appreciated....it is a beast... bought 200 rounds of yr suggestion for $300... not cheap really,but what a pleasure to shoot

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## john m

shooting a 45-70 puts a smile on my face every time.

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## Micky Duck

bump so @Coote can have a read.

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## Jit

45/70 is just ridiculous. And fun. Im glad I owned and loaded for one. 

Literally pole axes animals. Subs gets for the kids with serous power and .5moa. Full power rounds enough for buffalo.

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## Coote

Thanks Micky, this is an inspiring thread.  Dang there are some humorous characters here.

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