# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Im lost for words

## screamO

Officer acquitted after accidentally shooting man during AOS raid | Stuff.co.nz

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## mikee

> Officer acquitted after accidentally shooting man during AOS raid | Stuff.co.nz


Not surprised you gotta remember the Police are "special (highly trained )people" not at all like us mere mortals.

 God forbid a licensed firearms user did that in self defence they would be financially ruined among other things.  More and more it seems "do as we say not as we do ......" and they wonder why their credibility is shattered with the public at large

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## Tommy

"_The jury heard from experts that it was most likely that the officer's Bushmaster rifle had been in safety mode, but was put into "fire" mode accidentally as the rifle brushed against the leather holster holding his Glock pistol, attached to his vest.

This probably occurred as the officer pushed the rifle to his side as he knelt on the man. The officer rose from the man, took a few steps back, then came forward again to help the man off the ground.

At some point one of the buckles on the officer's vest entered the trigger guard of the rifle, which was hanging from a harness over his shoulder, and when he crouched down to raise the man, the weight of the rifle forced the buckle to pull the trigger and the rifle fired_."

Hahaha you've got to be kidding me, pull the other one - it's got bells on


"*Krebs said the officer should never have been put in the position he was as he was not a fully qualified AOS member and had not completed his training*"

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## screamO

What I can't work out is, they have the man in hand cuffs and he's not putting up a fight but you still walk around with a loaded gun relying on the safety  :Wtfsmilie:  it sounds like they went out of their way to concoct a story as to why it went off. Sure shit happens but 4 little things all in one hit :ORLY:

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## Maca49

Note a loaded rifle is not referred to. I really wonder if there is any organised training for this to occur

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## screamO

> Note a loaded rifle is not referred to. I really wonder if there is any organised training for this to occur


That's because it was unloaded after it happened  :Grin:  nope that can't be right ..........it would have put another in it after the first shot wouldn't it? Lucky the AOS didn't bend down again.

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## GravelBen

> More and more it seems "do as we say not as we do ......" and they wonder why their credibility is shattered with the public at large


Yep, one rule for them and one rule for everyone else!

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## bully

Haha, why am I not surprised.

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## jim160

Did anyone here go to the trial and hear all the evidence or are we just listening to what the media says.  Because we all know how accurate they are with their information.'

Besides, jury trials require every member of the 12 person jury to say guilty, or 11 if there is a rogue jury member.  So basically, if 2 people say the person is not guilty, then he is acquitted.

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## Maca49

Good defence if I sadly shoot you in the bush huh? I'm gonna add a Glock holster and many more buckles to my tackle :Thumbsup:

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## R93

I am on the police side for this one. 
Very few people in society will ever have to carry a firearm and required equipment for a job where they have to physically manipulate other people.

Training aside, I am really surprised it hasn't happened a lot more.
If every possible scenario could be anticipated......


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## veitnamcam

> I am on the police side for this one. 
> Very few people in society will ever have to carry a firearm and required equipment for a job where they have to physically manipulate other people.
> 
> Training aside, I am really surprised it hasn't happened a lot more.
> If every possible scenario could be anticipated......
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


What is someone who isnt trained doing in the AOS? heads should be bloody rolling.

If I sent the apprentice to weld the cracked chassis on your kids school bus and it broke causing an accident and deaths I would be doing Jail time most likely.

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## 199p

Makes you think if the Jury had any firearms knowledge before hand.

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## R93

Not my call. I don't know the requirements to be in the AOS. Like the military suitable people operate in roles they might not nessasarily have done a course for.
If the incident described is true, a course with a wee certificate would not have prevented it. It could have potentially happened to anyone trained or not imo.


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## Maca49

They are doing a job they should be trained for and Workforce should be up em like anyone else. It's just a job their salaries tell you that, it's their choice, don't try to screw my head, some guys work in War situs for wages! Their choice!

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## R93

I never mentioned stress.
Not the issue in this case at all imo.

I have my opinion and will stick to it.

The rest of you can carry on...


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## 308

If this isn't careless use of a firearm then what the fuck is?

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## Tommy

> If this isn't careless use of a firearm causing injury then what the fuck is?



..

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## Maca49

He was not the guy for the job and his boss should take the rap

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## Savage1

> Yep, one rule for them and one rule for everyone else!


And how would Police do their job effectively by adhering to each one of the 7 rules? It's like asking a soldier not to load his rifle until he is ready to fire. Police have to abide by the same rules with some small exceptions.




> Good defence if I sadly shoot you in the bush huh? I'm gonna add a Glock holster and many more buckles to my tackle


That comment is so stupid, pointless and full of holes it doesn't warrant an answer.

Policing isn't 'just a job', if it was then they aren't getting paid enough to be punched, kicked, spat on and then hung out to dry at the first opportunity by the organisation and members of the ignorant public that think that they know all. With attitudes like yours it's a wonder why they want to do their job at all.




> If this isn't careless use of a firearm then what the fuck is?


It's a very unfortunate accident




> Then what aspect of carrying a fire arm and restraining someone was it then, that could function as an excuse? I'm confident its reasonably hard to accidentally shoot someone. We have 5000 members, who carry fire arms frequently. How often do they accidentally shoot something?


I believe the reason or 'excuse' was that the M4 got caught up in the officer equipment he was wearing. Nowhere did it say anything about an over excited or stressed officer. How often do the people on here have to wear AOS equipment and deal with violent mentally impaired violent people? Are you saying no one on here has ever shot somebody by accident?

But then again, what would I know, I've never been in any kind of situation like that. He's a cop so it must be a cover up and he must be guilty.

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## Shooter

Oh the arm chair critics...

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## screamO

I think the only thing that will happen now is they are going to spend millions on designing new uniforms so it can't happen again..............and once they've  done that they will spend millions on redesigning as the one they just done didn't work.

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## kiwijames

The solution is pretty simple. Don't give anyone an excuse to turn up at your doorstep with a gun. Cop. Gangsta. Jealous husband. YOU are the master of your own destiny. Really.

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## Shooter

> If this isn't careless use of a firearm then what the fuck is?


Accidental shooting in South Auckland - National - NZ Herald News

I would say this would be what you are after...

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## veitnamcam

> The ever increasing tone of a war zone for New Zealands deadly streets. Endless references to the "front line".
> 
> "It's like asking a soldier not to load his rifle until he is ready to fire."
> 
> It is just a job. People do dangerous jobs. People talk to armed mobs with machetes in a calm and conversational manner. People get punched, kicked and spat at as doorman for $20 and hour and if they put the slightest bruise on someone its and assault charge. 
> 
> Its a safe country, there is no need to go all world war three every time a nutter goes nuts. The militarisation of police forces is ridiculous, but when they don't seem to get any training other than being convinced they are going to war on joe public its scary and a bit weird. 
> 
> The language, the guns, the costumes. Ridiculous. 
> ...


Well said.

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## veitnamcam

> The solution is pretty simple. Don't give anyone an excuse to turn up at your doorstep with a gun. Cop. Gangsta. Jealous husband. YOU are the master of your own destiny. Really.


It will be funny when your vehicle is stolen and used in a armed robbery and the AOS storm your house.

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## Pointer

> The solution is pretty simple. Don't give anyone an excuse to turn up at your doorstep with a gun. Cop. Gangsta. Jealous husband. YOU are the master of your own destiny. Really.


Yep, in a nutshell. Amazing how many people don't understand that absolutely everything that happens to you in life is a direct result of the choices you make.

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## mikee

> I have seen similar set ups in police states. The crims are nothing compared to the cops once they think they are soldiers.


Given some of the countries I have lived / worked in this is a very true statement indeed. Cops in Turkmenistan were more feared by the public than the local crims there. Same in Philippines and ditto Panama. Corrupt as all hell and looked after their own.

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## Maca49

Ditto Tussock well said, amazing how those involved close ranks and stick their heads in the sand! It's just a job people choose to do, it's as bad as being a care giver to me. Stop fucking trying to cover up. Open up an face the facts, it's a fuck up and him and his boss should be done! The situation was under control and still someone gets shot! It could have been a fellow cop or a person walking past. Why the protection?

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## mikee

> Add Ethiopia to that list. Very stable, but very brutal. Most of the lovely peaceful middle class friends I had there had nasty scars on their scalps.


Yemen looked the same although I was only passing thru on a visa run  :Grin:

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## Savage1

> The ever increasing tone of a war zone for New Zealands deadly streets. Endless references to the "front line".
> 
> "It's like asking a soldier not to load his rifle until he is ready to fire."
> 
> It is just a job. People do dangerous jobs. People talk to armed mobs with machetes in a calm and conversational manner. People get punched, kicked and spat at as doorman for $20 and hour and if they put the slightest bruise on someone its and assault charge. 
> 
> Its a safe country, there is no need to go all world war three every time a nutter goes nuts. The militarisation of police forces is ridiculous, but when they don't seem to get any training other than being convinced they are going to war on joe public its scary and a bit weird. 
> 
> The language, the guns, the costumes. Ridiculous. 
> ...


Remind me what experience you have with policing in NZ, police training and dealing with the criminal element, because your comments seem to display a distinct lack. 

Cops talk to armed people in a calm conversational manner, but it often doesn't work through no fault of the officers. Doorman don't get charged for putting bruises on people, most of the time it's justified, and when it's not that is when they get charged, much like a Police Officer. Cops don't get much more than $20 an hour either. 

NZ is a safe country as a whole, and I'd like it to stay that way, but parts of it aren't safe, funnily enough Police spend most of their time in those areas, areas I'm guessing you don't go by choice. 

Cops don't get trained that they are going "war on joe public", however they do get some training on how to lessen the risks to themselves.

Language ridiculous, how so? Guns ridiculous, how so? Should they get a Tikka or a 10/22? Costumes ridiculous, I'm guessing you're talking about the AOS 'costume'. Have you got a more practical way of carrying the necessary equipment along with body armour? Militarization or just practical and safe in a given situation?

I've seen and dealt with some corrupt Police forces overseas, luckily the NZ Police is a long way off of that.

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## screamO

> Ditto Tussock well said, amazing how those involved close ranks and stick their heads in the sand! It's just a job people choose to do, it's as bad as being a care giver to me. Stop fucking trying to cover up. Open up an face the facts, it's a fuck up and him and his boss should be done! The situation was under control and still someone gets shot! It could have been a fellow cop or a person walking past. Why the protection?


Agree, but the problem is we don't know who this guy is or why the AOS where called. If it went more along the lines off............AOS accidentally shots rapist while handcuffed........I wonder how this thread would be tracking :Grin:

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## Savage1

> Ditto Tussock well said, amazing how those involved close ranks and stick their heads in the sand! It's just a job people choose to do, it's as bad as being a care giver to me. Stop fucking trying to cover up. Open up an face the facts, it's a fuck up and him and his boss should be done! The situation was under control and still someone gets shot! It could have been a fellow cop or a person walking past. Why the protection?


What cover up?! The officer was charged by Police and the prosecution was handed on to the Crown then he was acquitted by a jury who were presented the available facts! Who closed ranks? Who conducted the cover up? What protection was offered to the officer? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

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## Maca49

I'd be fine with that, would have shot him myself :Thumbsup:  but it's very basic to have a loaded gun when the situ is under control. Hope he's not a weekend hunter!

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## Kscott

> Not surprised you gotta remember the Police are "special (highly trained )people" not at all like us mere mortals.
> 
>  God forbid a licensed firearms user did that in self defence they would be financially ruined among other things.  More and more it seems "do as we say not as we do ......" and they wonder why their credibility is shattered with the public at large


Farmer walks free after fatally shooting intruder - National - NZ Herald News

And no I'm not defending the Police officer in this action, sweeping generalisations do no-one any good.

_Needing_ to have a firearm to do your job for safety ? No thanks.

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## veitnamcam

> Yemen looked the same although I was only passing thru on a visa run


Argentina too, when I was there cops earned around $100US  and had to supply their own sidearm and most if not all Govt employeys were getting IOU slips instead of pay.
They were expected to be corrupt to earn a living. Little ol country boy me first time ever overseas had been in the country less than a hour and was being led running threw riots in the st where I saw a cop shot presumably dead and all I could think was dont loose that guy(the guy who picked me up from the airport)
Everything was done with bribes,company even allocated me bribe money(not enough)

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## Sideshow

> Accidental shooting in South Auckland - National - NZ Herald News
> 
> I would say this would be what you are after...


Himm read that...."Police were called to a house on Tyrone St in Otara about 5pm after reports there had been a shooting - and arrived to find a sawn-off shotgun and a man with a serious head wound."
Sawn-off shotgun?
Since when are they legal?

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## Pointer

> Yeah, nah. It is in the utopia we live in, but we live off borrowed money. People make the decision not to take an interest in what can be done to them or the erosion of their liberties. 
> 
> Most of the world lives in fear and the nasty shit that happens to them is due to the wealth gap. The very rich people start to sweat when they are surrounded by the very poor, and increasing brutality is required to keep the rabble in its place.


What a load of dribble. Every time I have ended up with a bunch of cops kneeling on my chest I dammed well deserved it  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Maca49

> What cover up?! The officer was charged by Police and the prosecution was handed on to the Crown then he was acquitted by a jury who were presented the available facts! Who closed ranks? Who conducted the cover up? What protection was offered to the officer? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.


Savage the protectionism and closed ranks is all over you. If any business, and policing is a business, it has to be open, totally open. The police are not there yet. I respect the fact you have a job that burns you, but you need to look through it and see it is not perfect.As I've said before I respect the police and the law, but there are times a wound has to be opened and cleaned out correctly for it to heal and consequences faced squarely. Leave excuses behind.

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## Shooter

> Himm read that...."Police were called to a house on Tyrone St in Otara about 5pm after reports there had been a shooting - and arrived to find a sawn-off shotgun and a man with a serious head wound."
> Sawn-off shotgun?
> Since when are they legal?


As long as it is over 762mm then there is nothing wrong with it.  I have one that I have "sawn" off sitting at 765mm, whats your issue?

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## Savage1

> Savage the protectionism and closed ranks is all over you. If any business, and policing is a business, it has to be open, totally open. The police are not there yet. I respect the fact you have a job that burns you, but you need to look through it and see it is not perfect.As I've said before I respect the police and the law, but there are times a wound has to be opened and cleaned out correctly for it to heal and consequences faced squarely. Leave excuses behind.


I think you are talking about an old Police force, I'm the first to admit the Police aren't perfect but corrupt? No way, not in my experience, and is also shown clearly by how quick Police are to prosecute their own, just as in this case. I'm not sure what you've experienced in the past, but I can assure you that things have changed.

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## Tommy

> Tribe my girl lived and worked with file their teeth down to points. This is because when they win a fight, they rip their opponents nuts off with their teeth, then either hang them from the rafters in their hut, or wear them around their necks.


You go out with Sue Bradford?

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## stretch

> Tribe my girl lived and worked with file their teeth down to points. This is because when they win a fight, they rip their opponents nuts off with their teeth, then either hang them from the rafters in their hut, or wear them around their necks.


Sounds like the Helen Clark School of Dentistry.

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## kiwijames

> It will be funny when your vehicle is stolen and used in a armed robbery and the AOS storm your house.


Cool story.

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## Maca49

> I think you are talking about an old Police force, I'm the first to admit the Police aren't perfect but corrupt? No way, not in my experience, and is also shown clearly by how quick Police are to prosecute their own, just as in this case. I'm not sure what you've experienced in the past, but I can assure you that things have changed.


There's to much internal assessment, there should be an independent body that looks at this, open is a great free word, releasing it is a prob in most companies. 
You know if the police opened up the general public would be even more supportive,

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## Kscott

I think the chip on your shoulder is blinding you to see the world the way you want to, not the way it actually is.

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## 308

> Accidental shooting in South Auckland - National - NZ Herald News
> 
> I would say this would be what you are after...


It sounds like this guy was being a numpty and would be right to be charged if there were any details but presumably he shot himself through stupid handling yes but my point is that the officer in this incident also displayed very poor handling skills and the case shows that we need to train the cops more often as, just like everybody else, some of them are a bit dense

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## Savage1

There is an independent body:

IPCA - Independent Police Conduct Authority of New Zealand

The general public is very supportive in my experience, issuing traffic tickets is probably the biggest hindrance to public support.

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## screamO

> There is an independent body:
> 
> IPCA - Independent Police Conduct Authority of New Zealand
> 
> The general public is very supportive in my experience, issuing traffic tickets is probably the biggest hindrance to public support.


Yep I think your right on that one :Thumbsup:

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## MassiveAttack

> It will be funny when your vehicle is stolen and used in a armed robbery and the AOS storm your house.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting

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## veitnamcam

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting


Yea those guys.

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## kiwijames

> Yea those guys.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


So overrun by US anti terror forces in Taradice. 

You must read Stuff a lot.

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## Jexla

Explain to me, why at any point during a resolved situation do you sling a loaded firearm, safety on or off.

I just can't get my head around it. It's like just putting the safety on and leaving a round in the chamber at a range while everyone walks down, even then, it should still be untouched but would still be considered a massive fuck up!

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## veitnamcam

> So overrun by US anti terror forces in Taradice. 
> 
> You must read Stuff a lot.


No I just have had a vehicle stolen and used in a armed robbery.
You have your head in the sand if you think the cops will never come see me if I am a good boy.
You cannot predict what the rest of the population will do at any given time.
To say everything that happens is the result of your actions is retarded in the extream.
If an 80year old  lady is raped and bashed in her own home by a prospect looking to earn his patch is that her fault for getting old and frail?

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## kotuku

opinions are like arseholes feet&armpits -we all have em and often they stink.sad to say some of the opinions on here seem to point more to an underlying anticop bias than the actual incident itself.as for NZ herald reports ,Iwouldnt trust that leftist rag -its only use is to wipe ones arse.
tussock-do you sniff any of those rocks you play with cause at times your words seem to be delving a little into the magical.but then again like savage what would i know im just a little old psychiatric nurse.eh guys.have a nice day enjoy your lattes.

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## BRADS

> tussock-do you sniff any of those rocks you play with cause at times your words seem to be delving a little into the magical.


+1


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## kiwijames

> No I just have had a vehicle stolen and used in a armed robbery.
> You have your head in the sand if you think the cops will never come see me if I am a good boy.
> You cannot predict what the rest of the population will do at any given time.
> To say everything that happens is the result of your actions is retarded in the extream.
> If an 80year old  lady is raped and bashed in her own home by a prospect looking to earn his patch is that her fault for getting old and frail?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


Goodness me, a rather dramatic start to the morning Cam?
 So you're telling me after having your car stolen AOS stormed your home and put you in a position where they could have accidentally shot you? 
IIRC you were whining about how little Police attention you got after it got nicked.

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## ebf

> Explain to me, why at any point during a resolved situation do you sling a loaded firearm, safety on or off


Er, just cause one guy is on the ground and cuffed does not mean the situation is "resolved". Your comments on police procedures make me wonder if you ever exited the vehicle on the ride-alongs you claim to have gone on.

I spent several years carrying a firearm while at work. We would only ever unload the firearm back at base when the shift finished. Carrying a loaded firearm with the safety on is very common practise.

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## Dougie

Just my opinion, not a trained AOS member or anything, but if it was me and the original situation called for me and my AOS buddies to be called there in the first place, I wouldn't have my weapon at any state other than ready until all the bad guys were cuffed and in the back of a car. 

None of us were there. 

This was investigated independently and had a jury trial. What more do people want? 


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## Kscott

> Explain to me, why at any point during a resolved situation do you sling a loaded firearm, safety on or off.
> 
> I just can't get my head around it. It's like just putting the safety on and leaving a round in the chamber at a range while everyone walks down, even then, it should still be untouched but would still be considered a massive fuck up!


I think you'll find, including military, that when firearms are in use they are cleared and emptied after the situation is resolved and is closed. Resolved isn't just having someone handcuffed, it's when they've left the scene.

A situation of having Police unload and show clear to a colleague while people/perps are still being engaged with would create a very unsafe environment, for everyone, especially the public. It would be difficult to protect the public - after all, that's what they're there for with loaded firearms - if the situation escalated and Mr HandCuffed Fucktard or an unseen associate decided to cause more trouble.

There's plenty of body cam videos on YT showing how quickly a benign, quiet scene can escalate to the use of firearms very, very quickly.

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## Woody

Sensible comment Dougie.

There are two issues here it seems. 
1     It was necessary to have armed police. 
2     One of the police made an error while carrying out his duties.

The issue is one of human error /carelessness.

But then so are most of the fatalities in hunting, and what are the courts going to the hapless perpetrators of those tragedies.

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## Maca49

> I think the chip on your shoulder is blinding you to see the world the way you want to, not the way it actually is.


Im perfectly balanced I have a chip on both shoulders :Thumbsup:

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## Maca49

> Sensible comment Dougie.
> 
> There are two issues here it seems. 
> 1     It was necessary to have armed police. 
> 2     One of the police made an error while carrying out his duties.
> 
> The issue is one of human error /carelessness.
> 
> But then so are most of the fatalities in hunting, and what are the courts going to the hapless perpetrators of those tragedies.


Yep the rose tinted glasses come off for those poor buggers

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## veitnamcam

> Goodness me, a rather dramatic start to the morning Cam?
>  So you're telling me after having your car stolen AOS stormed your home and put you in a position where they could have accidentally shot you? 
> IIRC you were whining about how little Police attention you got after it got nicked.


Yes 3 armed police and two detectives entered. That was 20 odd years ago so imagine the reaction now.
As for when my jetski was stolen nobody came to look or question anyone nothing.
Same when the wifes car was stolen recently....they were only interested when freinds of ours saw it so effectivly you have to find it yourself.

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## BRADS

Shit it's almost the weekend boys go hunting.


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## screamO

> Sensible comment Dougie.
> 
> There are two issues here it seems. 
> 1     It was necessary to have armed police. 
> 2     One of the police made an error while carrying out his duties.
> 
> The issue is one of human error /carelessness.
> 
> But then so are most of the fatalities in hunting, and what are the courts going to the hapless perpetrators of those tragedies.


It's number 2 where I see the biggest problem; sure accidents happen (I know this), I saw somewhere the police don't call accidents "accidents" any more as it's harder to charge them when it's an accident (please don't quote me on this until I can find the information). In my trade I'm not allowed to have an accident / human error or carelessness and if I do someone is going to come down on my like a ton of bricks! 
Sure hunting accidents happen all the time (to often), but when a highly trained AOS (not forgetting the A stands for Armed) has a f#*k up it seems to just be the nature of the beast. The AOS are getting called out for all sorts of shit these days because someone heard fireworks and thought it was gun shots :Wtfsmilie:  Now I wouldn't like to be the one letting of the fireworks when 10 or so AOS turn up with loaded firearms all with there safety on.
IMO I think there should be a lot more cops having accidental shootings, would help take some pressure of the prisons (shit did I just say that).
I have a lot of time for the police and most seem bloody good people but it's the whole system that winds me the wrong way and unfortunately its the cops that cop the shit for it, not the ones higher up the food chain.

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## mikee

> Shit it's almost the weekend boys go hunting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought about it but that's as far as i got.

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## Jexla

> I think you'll find, including military, that when firearms are in use they are cleared and emptied after the situation is resolved and is closed. Resolved isn't just having someone handcuffed, it's when they've left the scene.
> 
> A situation of having Police unload and show clear to a colleague while people/perps are still being engaged with would create a very unsafe environment, for everyone, especially the public. It would be difficult to protect the public - after all, that's what they're there for with loaded firearms - if the situation escalated and Mr HandCuffed Fucktard or an unseen associate decided to cause more trouble.
> 
> There's plenty of body cam videos on YT showing how quickly a benign, quiet scene can escalate to the use of firearms very, very quickly.


I agree, and honestly I'm not entirely sure I would have liked to see the cop charged, I just wish that something comes from this even if it means more emphasis on checking your safety during training or something that will help avoid this happening again.

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## screamO

I actually thought this whole thread was going to go off topic about here :XD: 




> Tribe my girl lived and worked with file their teeth down to points. This is because when they win a fight, they rip their opponents nuts off with their teeth, then either hang them from the rafters in their hut, or wear them around their necks.

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## Pointer

> To say everything that happens is the result of your actions is retarded in the extream.
> If an 80year old  lady is raped and bashed in her own home by a prospect looking to earn his patch is that her fault for getting old and frail?


No, but how she deals with it is entirely up to her. Bad shit happens to good people every day. It's how they respond to it that defines them. A young fella that used to hang around here taught me that. You might remember him?

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## Maca49

> Shit it's almost the weekend boys go hunting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Check yours safetys on, and dont let Mucko walk behind you

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## Maca49

> No, but how she deals with it is entirely up to her. Bad shit happens to good people every day. It's how they respond to it that defines them. A young fella that used to hang around here taught me that. You might remember him?


But thats accepting bad shit will happen to by some ring gear who is acting outside the law, and that is not acceptable! In the work place now it is not acceptable to have bad shit happen to you any more, and if it does the shit of a thousand camels will land on you as the owner/manager of a business and you are likely to lose everything. Now accepting that criminal shit will get you, and in most cases that is intentional shit, shouldnt the pentalty be worse than it is for someone who owns or runs a business? What am I missing? The fact you own/run a business doesnt mean you have more money than a crim? or is that the perception and it is just another way to gather money for the govt. Now the threads way off course  :Thumbsup:

----------


## Pointer

'Man's search for meaning' by Frankl will be a good start for all you victims on this thread  :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## Pointer

Read it before you make assumptions. It's not really what it's about at all. 

Maca is aggrieved, a victim and he wants justice. VC is worse, he's afraid of being a victim. It happened to him once and it can happen to you! 

Has anyone stopped to ask how this man came to have the armed offenders there? I bet our 'victim' is under no illusions at all as to why they paid him a visit.

----------


## Kscott

> Im perfectly balanced I have a chip on both shoulders


Noice !  :Thumbsup:

----------


## veitnamcam

> Read it before you make assumptions. It's not really what it's about at all. 
> 
> Maca is aggrieved, a victim and he wants justice. VC is worse, he's afraid of being a victim. It happened to him once and it can happen to you! 
> 
> Has anyone stopped to ask how this man came to have the armed offenders there? I bet our 'victim' is under no illusions at all as to why they paid him a visit.


Yes read it before you make assumptions.

I am not a victim or afraid...I was making the point that everything that happens in your life is not in your control as you and kiwi james suggested.

I dont think Tobys cancer was his doing just life being life and further illistrates my point that you are clearly missing.

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## Gibo

> Yes read it before you make assumptions.
> 
> I am not a victim or afraid...I was making the point that everything that happens in your life is not in your control as you and kiwi james suggested.
> 
> I dont think Tobys cancer was his doing just life being life and further illistrates my point that you are clearly missing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk


I think they said everything that happens in your life is a result of your decisions, no mention of control. The result of your decision could however be good or bad. i.e. lady goes outside and is attacked as there was a shitface out there vs. lady went back inside to get something and shitface moved on unknowingly. Her decision changed the result but they were here decisions.

----------


## Pointer

Yep. This guy didn't wake up this morning and think 'I'd love a cop to shoot me today' he did however make a decision to do something to attract an armed policeman to him.  

In the same way that out little old lady didn't choose to be attacked, but she can choose to deal with it, or dwell on it and die inside.

Which raises an interesting side point. I believe an 80+ year old person would deal with it better than younger people. Most people that age know real hardship and trouble of a global kind. We have grown up in good times.

----------


## Jexla

> Accidents happen. When it's the general public having an accident makes you a criminal and when your a cop, not so much.


He was just doing his job!

Imagine if that line worked for us....

----------


## veitnamcam

Exactly

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

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## Savage1

> Imagine going to a safety meeting and trying to use the justification that because an object is dangerous it makes stuffing up with it more acceptable.


Imagine if Police had time for a safety meeting before each job, and they had all of the information needed for such a meeting, imagine. 

You talk about if it was a civilian then they would have had the book thrown at them and their lives destroyed, you can't compare the two, a civilian would never have been in that situation, but then I guess that wouldn't support your argument.

If Police aren't working in the real world then I'm not sure which world they are working in considering they're dealing and reacting to what happens in front of them. I've never known a Police Officer to be accused of not living in the 'real world'.

A builder with a nail gun wouldn't be going into a hostile house with an armed offender to arrest him. Another completely irrelevant by you Tussock, however I do enjoy them, maybe it's a glimpse into the real world for me.

----------


## Savage1

No cops aren't civilians, try looking up the definition of 'civilian'.

I absolutely agree that weapons are a poor substitute for respect and sympathy from the population, lucky you can (and we do) have both.

All the cops I know use their communication skills first, but they don't always work so they must be able to step it up when needed, it's up to the subject how the officer will react.

----------


## Savage1

> I agree on the term civilian. I also think the term "the public" is in more common use for a reason. 
> 
> Unarmed policing is a founding premise of the respect and sympathy of the public is it not. So I imagine when they are armed, they are prepared to accept the same level of suspicion or mistrust as any other armed police force? 
> 
> The sympathy comes from doing a dangerous job in a vulnerable way. Once they are doing it in a forceful way, whats the point of feeling sorry for them?


I disagree, I think what tools an officer has on his belt has nothing to do with sympathy and respect coming from the public, that sympathy and respect comes from doing a job that helps people and is often dangerous and thankless while maintaining a high level of respect and integrity.

I think you're way off.

----------


## Savage1

> Yeah, and the attitudes of the public in this thread reflect that............
> 
> I don't think cops spend enough time listening to "civilians".


Using this thread as a gauge of public opinion towards Police is just stupid. As usual, the antis make the most noise. Police are generally held in high regard

Don't just take my word for it:

Trust survey results revealed: MPs, journalists least trusted - National - NZ Herald News

Surveys show few agencies are more trusted than NZ Police | Integrity Talking Points

Police, health, courts most trusted by M

The job of Police revolves around listening to civilians, you're not getting the policing and justice sector confused are you?

----------


## Gibo

This thread is going well ah  :Grin:

----------


## Maca49

Savage open business is good business believe me, if the police opened up and were more transparent to the public I':O_Om sure 99% would be behind them helping. When some in the police make their own law its just wrong, a smart AO is one that realises the guys with FALs are his friend in nearly every case, benign lovers of firearms, but sadly in most case they are the enemy to be controlled.

----------


## Maca49

> This thread is going well ah


Shut up, go fishing or do something useful!! :Psmiley:

----------


## kotuku

tussock old chap just as i said youve got your opinion ive got mine .youve also mooted youre a bit of ye old anarchist at heart ,so no doubt that may colour ya thinking somewhat .pleas do not try to interpret my role in this world based on your own philosophies though as tis very easy to make errors ,which frankly may cause me to react a little .craziness ok--its mental illness in this day and age,your phraseology is that of the unruly unkempt ignorant ,which i clearly know youre not
/
I float my stick with dougie &co-we were not present at the initial incident ,we do not know when where what what  ,only the slanted left wing utterances of an outfit whose by word is sleaze.
  what we do know is that jurisprudence has been actioned and a result obtained. 

of course,there is indignation galore,well hows abouts the age old mantra "if you think we aint up to scratch ,feel free to show us how to do it better"
 the blunt version being of course "put up or shutup". cops like us nurses are only HUMAN,got that HUMAN.humans can and do make mistakes-thats how most humans are produced!
  when we are in a bloody life /death situation with screaming aggro or terrified humans from arsehole to breakfast ,turmoil is a fertile breeding ground for things to go tits up and alas it does happen.
Theres not denyin your concerns but for gods sake lets put those concerns into a little context eh,including perhaps a little more respect for those who choose to man the thin blue line dealing with humans under bloody adverse circumstances. the guy who fucked up is probably feeling like shit ,and will carry that feeling for a lifetime-,do you really think your wee shovelful is gonna make him feel any better about it.

----------


## nseagoon

cops armed would mean more training and more use. Therefore more familiarity with firearms.
that means the potential for these incidents of cops shooting themselves could go down.

To be honest they're not particularly common. It's just NZ is a pretty cool place and when they do happen they make national news because not much else bad is happening.

I wouldn't treat them different whatever they have on their belt either.

----------


## Jexla

> cops armed would mean more training and more use. Therefore more familiarity with firearms.
> that means the potential for these incidents of cops shooting themselves could go down.
> 
> To be honest they're not particularly common. It's just NZ is a pretty cool place and when they do happen they make national news because not much else bad is happening.
> 
> I wouldn't treat them different whatever they have on their belt either.


As you can see from the above image, when the glock was introduced, police were given 20 hours training with it.
20 hours.

----------


## nseagoon

One military service trains once a year.  On specialised weapons some only train on pre deployment training. 
That service has had a few people shoot themselves and have plenty of negligent discharges. 
If they have to use it they shoot 50 rounds once a year. 

That sounds like not enough training to potentially use a weapon to shoot a person and defend peers.
Now think that police requirements are even less....

As always is a budget and HQ/heirachy problem

----------


## Shooter

> One military service trains once a year.  On specialised weapons some only train on pre deployment training. 
> That service has had a few people shoot themselves and have plenty of negligent discharges. 
> If they have to use it they shoot 50 rounds once a year. 
> 
> That sounds like not enough training to potentially use a weapon to shoot a person and defend peers.
> Now think that police requirements are even less....
> 
> As always is a budget and HQ/heirachy problem


Well that is a ton more training than they used to do  :Have A Nice Day:  And they are some what better for it too given the other training that is conducted at the same time.

----------


## jim160

> One military service trains once a year.  On specialised weapons some only train on pre deployment training. 
> That service has had a few people shoot themselves and have plenty of negligent discharges. 
> If they have to use it they shoot 50 rounds once a year. 
> 
> That sounds like not enough training to potentially use a weapon to shoot a person and defend peers.
> Now think that police requirements are even less....
> 
> As always is a budget and HQ/heirachy problem


Which military service is that.

----------


## 308

Definitely yes more training for police no question about it

But hiding behind this "my buckle did it" bullshit does not engender my faith and trust and as for quoting surveys only old people with landlines answer surveys

----------


## Shooter

> Which military service is that.


That is a smaller post than the one you deleted...  I am sure you can work it out given you were in the service yourself at some point.

----------


## jim160

> That is a smaller post than the one you deleted...  I am sure you can work it out given you were in the service yourself at some point.


Yes I know.  Didn't like the last one as it was more of a rant.  Which I don't like.  I try and have tact, well try to most of the time.  I have probably posted and deleted a dozen posts before.
I just get frustrated when people claim to know what and how much training people get, when clearly they have no idea.  Im not trying to offend people but there are a lot of people out there which the closest they get to the Army is Call of Duty and to the Police is Grand theft Auto.

And these people are the ones we get our opinions from.  Not to mention the Facebook Valour soldiers out there who say we should fight ISIL, yet 80% of the same people refuse to enlist or protect their country.

All mouth, and no balls to stand up and protect, they rather bitch and moan about the Military / Law Enforcement.

Pretty much, if you want it to change, then step up or shut up.

Now this ended in sort of a rant.  Nevermind.

----------


## Shooter

> And these people are the ones we get our opinions from.


I hear you mate!

Remember "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and most of them stink".

There are always some gold nuggets when reading through this stuff.

----------


## Maca49

You could learn to fly an aeroplane 8, then get chucked into a dog fight, 20 hours is more than enough :Have A Nice Day:

----------


## screamO

I might just wait till the morning before I reply to the  last few pages.

----------


## Maca49

> As you can see from the above image, when the glock was introduced, police were given 20 hours training with it.
> 20 hours.


Problem probably lies in the fact most know nothing about firearms, never been actively involved in hunting, then get one scary bit of steel in their hand and 20 hour to get to know and use it professionally, just my guess

----------


## southernman

I have a few questions, luckily the man isn't dead, and a number of things were done very wrong in the lead up to this.
 how many officers would normally deploy to a call out,
 is it normal for an armed officer, (with a carbine or long rifle) to be directly involved in detaining the suspect, I can understand a pistol.
 I would have thought, once suspect was cuffed and on ground, that all arms would then be safed,  right away, is this the case, or standard practice is.

----------


## Danny

> Remind me what experience you have with policing in NZ, police training and dealing with the criminal element, because your comments seem to display a distinct lack. 
> 
> Cops talk to armed people in a calm conversational manner, but it often doesn't work through no fault of the officers. Doorman don't get charged for putting bruises on people, most of the time it's justified, and when it's not that is when they get charged, much like a Police Officer. Cops don't get much more than $20 an hour either. 
> 
> NZ is a safe country as a whole, and I'd like it to stay that way, but parts of it aren't safe, funnily enough Police spend most of their time in those areas, areas I'm guessing you don't go by choice. 
> 
> Cops don't get trained that they are going "war on joe public", however they do get some training on how to lessen the risks to themselves.
> 
> Language ridiculous, how so? Guns ridiculous, how so? Should they get a Tikka or a 10/22? Costumes ridiculous, I'm guessing you're talking about the AOS 'costume'. Have you got a more practical way of carrying the necessary equipment along with body armour? Militarization or just practical and safe in a given situation?
> ...


Indeed.

----------


## Jexla

> Pretty much, if you want it to change, then step up or shut up.


I like how you think that by just joining the police you can change how the whole organization works, that's like saying if you want the country to change, become and politician and you can do it....

AS IF

----------


## kiwijames

For a thread that was "lost for words" there sure are a whole bunch of em

----------


## Kscott

> Problem probably lies in the fact most know nothing about firearms, never been actively involved in hunting, then get one scary bit of steel in their hand and 20 hour to get to know and use it professionally, just my guess


Problem is you've described a situation that existed 20 years ago. It simply doesn't exist now.

Just as non shooters judged hunters as idiots who grab a gun and shoot at anything they see, including each other. Or school teachers.

It's an overly simple generalisation, which clouds opinion.

----------


## Maca49

Now it's got worse

----------


## Savage1

> I like how you think that by just joining the police you can change how the whole organization works, that's like saying if you want the country to change, become and politician and you can do it....
> 
> AS IF


You can, how do you think the current leaders started their careers? The current Police Commisioner started as a Constable and went through recruit college. John Key entered parliament in 2002 I believe. It's a bit gutless to think that you can't change it so won't try. Admitting you don't have the personal ability or qualities is different.




> I have a few questions, luckily the man isn't dead, and a number of things were done very wrong in the lead up to this.
> how many officers would normally deploy to a call out,
> is it normal for an armed officer, (with a carbine or long rifle) to be directly involved in detaining the suspect, I can understand a pistol.
> I would have thought, once suspect was cuffed and on ground, that all arms would then be safed, right away, is this the case, or standard practice is.


Could be between four and 20 at a guess.
Yes, every AOS member carries a long except a dog handler, and they've got a dog to control.
All the firearms are on safe until a second or two max before firing.

I believe part of the problem was they had crap slings, this has been remedied as a direct result of this incident.

Tussock I see that you've met a few idiot cops, sadly there are still a few about but they are certainly a very small minority. But you also cut the quote short, you have very little experience in Policing, their training and dealing with criminal element in NZ. If you're ever in Northland give me a shout and I'll take you out for a ride along and introduce you to all of the cops around, you'd probably change your general opinion, I imagine you'd be pretty interesting to have a beer with too.

As for following you on this thread winding all over the place, I'm over it, and my wife is sick of me sitting on the computer.

----------


## Jexla

> I believe part of the problem was they had crap slings, this has been remedied as a direct result of this incident.


I really hope that is the case!

----------


## jim160

> I like how you think that by just joining the police you can change how the whole organization works, that's like saying if you want the country to change, become and politician and you can do it....
> 
> AS IF


Im guessing by that statement, you believe that nothing can be changed so why bother trying.
Forgive me but that is the most gutless thing I have ever heard.  You cant change anything unless you put in the hard yard to make stuff change.

Saying I cant change it so I wont try, is just the cowards way out.  

Im guessing by your tone of your comments that you are a worker that just what they are told and does nothing other than what you are told. Much like a robot.

Im guessing you have not found or even looked of an easier way to do stuff, or recommend a better way of doing things.

Also, how then are Politicians or leaders made if one doesn't become one.  Do you think they are born into it as a birth right.

----------


## kotuku

more fucktards were made idiots by bloody computers than ever dead men by a nz police rounds or has that escaped some of you???

----------


## Jexla

> Im guessing by that statement, you believe that nothing can be changed so why bother trying.
> Forgive me but that is the most gutless thing I have ever heard.  You cant change anything unless you put in the hard yard to make stuff change.
> 
> Saying I cant change it so I wont try, is just the cowards way out.  
> 
> Im guessing by your tone of your comments that you are a worker that just what they are told and does nothing other than what you are told. Much like a robot.
> 
> Im guessing you have not found or even looked of an easier way to do stuff, or recommend a better way of doing things.
> 
> Also, how then are Politicians or leaders made if one doesn't become one.  Do you think they are born into it as a birth right.


You sure took this thread to a whole new level of insults didn't you?
I'll let you assume all you like, you really have NO idea.
I'll also leave that conversation at that and let your true personality shine for all to see.

----------


## jim160

So people cant change the way things are?

I didn't think what I said was unreasonable.  But someone saying that no one can change anything, I think is wrong.

Maybe how I said it was a little harsh, for which I apologise.  It wasn't a personal attack, it was just using the comment.
 @Jexla Sorry for the post.  Didn't mean it personally.

----------


## Savage1

To be fair Jexlas post was pretty stupid and did invite some harsh criticism, jim160's post may have been a bit harsh but jexla's next post came across as very arrogant. 

I always admit when I'm wrong, I take pride in it and it does happen often. With the amount of criticism you throw around jexla you should give it a try. 

F$@k, I'm just feeding this silly thread

----------


## veitnamcam

> To get back to the point of the start of the thread, any person who shoots another accidentally should get the fuc**ng book thrown at them and a nice little holiday at her majesty's expense to boot.
> 
> Reason for that, is that that person will suffer long term life changing injuries at best and worst permanent disability that all of us as NZ taxpayers pay through the eye teeth for and that doesn't even mention the trauma to the victims family members and dependants.
> 
> It just can't happen, and the fact that members of an organised force and even 'more highly trained' members of that force are guilty of the offense is even more damming.  Bad kit is a bullshit excuse, when you hold a potential instrument of death in your hands you are the only person responsible for that instrument.  If I get in my ute (another potential instrument of death) and drive with bald tyres (cheaper than good ones) and slide off the road into a flock of schoolkids and create a war zone, I'm sure that the defective equipment excuse will work for me.
> 
> This is the same as the 1080 bullshit, one rule for government types and one for everyone else.  There is no allowance for different levels of culpability, if I went to chuck a deadly toxin with no antidote around a public area with no lifecycle controls of any sort, I would get my arse thrown in the clink.  
> 
> In the original thread, if a person is put into a trusted position as a member of the force protecting the public (with all of the high standards of training, execution and expectations that entails) and actually creates a situation where that same public is less safe or actually directly threatened, then that person has failed completely in the requirements and the trust placed in them by the public.  There should and must be consequences for the simple fact that if there isn't a consequence, there is nothing to reassure the public that the organisation controlling the force actually takes the public safety component (the reason that the force exists) seriously.


Tripple like.

----------


## Kscott

> To get back to the point of the start of the thread, any person who shoots another accidentally should get the fuc**ng book thrown at them and a nice little holiday at her majesty's expense to boot.
> 
> In the original thread, if a person is put into a trusted position as a member of the force protecting the public (with all of the high standards of training, execution and expectations that entails) and actually creates a situation where that same public is less safe or actually directly threatened, then that person has failed completely in the requirements and the trust placed in them by the public.  There should and must be consequences for the simple fact that if there isn't a consequence, there is nothing to reassure the public that the organisation controlling the force actually takes the public safety component (the reason that the force exists) seriously.


Guilty until proven guilty ? Works well in North Korea.

There were consequences, the officer involved was charge, went to court, and a jury of his peers - THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE IN NAPIER -  acquitted him after hearing the evidence presented after 4 days. Did you read the article or just jump to an angry conclusion ?

Lynch mob mentality ffs  :Omg:

----------


## jim160

> Guilty until proven guilty ? Works well in North Korea.
> 
> There were consequences, the officer involved was charge, went to court, and a jury of his peers - THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE IN NAPIER -  acquitted him after hearing the evidence presented after 4 days. Did you read the article or just jump to an angry conclusion ?
> 
> Lynch mob mentality ffs


Maybe mauser308 should say the same about ALL trials.  the game of trials is the same for all of us.
Even gang members and murderers get off charges at jury trials, so why is it not fair for the police to have the same chances as everyone else.

Its how the justice system works.  Acquittal doesn't mean innocence, just means not proven.

----------


## jim160

> Missing the point much?
> 
> What happens if the next AD or UD goes through a child or pregnant mum-to-be?
> 
> It's sheer dumb luck that it hasn't happened already, not good skill or good management (obviously).  
> 
> Similar situation with a member of the public and an AD or a legitimate self-defense situation for whatever reason, and the person is basically garunteed a conviction to "send and reinforce the firearms safety message to the community".  Or, cost them their house, health through stress, employment, marraige, etc etc just trying to keep their name clear.
> 
> Post what you will, there is no difference between a serving officer and average Jo and Jane Bloggs in that situation yet one gets the 'good ol boy done an oops' treatment and the other gets crushed by whatever means necessary.
> ...


Sorry, but you missed the point.  I said, right or wrong, he went to trial and got acquitted.
He had the same chances as any other person has.  It doesn't matter if he was a cop or not.  If anything he would be at a disadvantage.

If you did the same, actually you wouldn't because you wouldn't arrest anyone.  But if you accidently shot someone, you could go to trial and be found not guilty like anyone else.

Regardless, even if acquitted at trial, they still have the code of conduct which could cause him to lose his job anyway.

But to you, that doesn't matter.  It seems as you believe that if a cop does something wrong, then they are guilty and should get the max penalty.

And you say that people should be locked up for not identifying their target correctly, I agree with that.  Please explain how this relates to the cops rifle getting caught and discharging a round.  He didn't aim it at him and pull the trigger, it was a UD.

But that seems to not matter to some people.

----------


## Towely

> I like how you think that by just joining the police you can change how the whole organization works, that's like saying if you want the country to change, become and politician and you can do it....
> 
> AS IF


Well said and 100% correct. Maybe some of the prize dicks on here will wake up and realise this one day but im not betting thats going to happen any time soon.

----------


## Maca49

I disagree, the right person at the top will change it in a few months, it's the same as any corporate company with all its rules and regulations. Air New Zealand a great example how things can be made better. Fonterras still got a way to go, it needs a change at the top as well!

----------


## screamO

> "What happens if the next AD or UD goes through a child or pregnant mum-to-be?"
> 
> What happens if the pregnant mum-to-be is carrying a puppy and works at a children's hospital? What happens if it goes through the child, through two pregnant mums and exits through a second child? What happens if it goes through the fence of a kindergarten and intercepts a conga line of four year olds head on, killing 12 of them? What happens if the bullet ricocheted off a childs head, into a gas station and through a gas tank, incinerating a buss load of school children from a nice neighborhood, three pregnant woman and some tourists from Europe or America?
> 
> Agoraphobia?


that would be some serious bad luck

----------


## Maca49

Hahahahah heathers his alias? :ORLY:

----------


## Kscott

> Post what you will, there is no difference between a serving officer and average Jo and Jane Bloggs in that situation yet one gets the 'good ol boy done an oops' treatment and the other gets crushed by whatever means necessary.


You've missed the point, the officer WAS charged, went to trial and went through the judicial system exactly the same was any civilian would. If you want to ignore the facts, well no-one can help you. 




> One shooting of an innocent by anyone is inexcusible and unforgiveable, yet it keeps happening.  I don't care who the nut behind the butt is.  They should all be locked up so the message is clear, keep control of the weapon at all times and ID the target correctly.


I know, those bloody hunters who shoot innocent people. Good job we don't tar every single hunter as being such dickheads aye. Hmm, number of people shot by accidental discharge by hunters vs number of people shot by accidental discharge by serving Police officers.  And the number of people who have shot others and are never charged ?

Nice trolling though Mauser.

----------


## jim160

> You've missed the point, the officer WAS charged, went to trial and went through the judicial system exactly the same was any civilian would. If you want to ignore the facts, well no-one can help you. 
> 
> 
> 
> I know, those bloody hunters who shoot innocent people. Good job we don't tar every single hunter as being such dickheads aye. Hmm, number of people shot by accidental discharge by hunters vs number of people shot by accidental discharge by serving Police officers.  And the number of people who have shot others and are never charged ?
> 
> Nice trolling though Mauser.


Its pretty clear what he's getting at.  He just doesn't like Police.  Might even go as far as to say "hate".
When you get to that stage, facts don't mean a thing.

From what I remember, only the handcuffed guy and the Auckland motorway incident are the only ones where people have accidently been shot by Police.
Yet how many hunters have been shot.  Shit, even fathers shoot their own sons.  That's far worse than Police shooting someone in stressful incidents.
But as has been said, we don't taint all hunters do we.  But by mausers theory, we should.

----------


## screamO

Its pretty clear what he's getting at. He just doesn't like Police. Might even go as far as to say "hate".
 When you get to that stage, facts don't mean a thing.
I don't know how to do that small quote stuff, so a bit of cut and paste will have to do.

I think reading between the lines of all this, yes the cops get a bad wrap. Why? well when you have dealt with them on other issues unfortunately the respect thing goes out the window. Now I'm only talking about when I've been the victim (have been on both sides but will leave that for another day), home invasion, theft, stolen goods, willful (spelling?) damage, etc,etc. Three times I can remember I ended up supply all the information to the cops ( I was the only one that wanted to do something about it apparently), which they ended up using to get the crim, so the crim could be told to go home and be a good boy!!!! on two of these issues I ended up feeling like the criminal. Then to top it off when you want a cop they aren't available because there's a funding shortage but there seems to be enough hiding behind the bushes in the school zones and trying to catch everyone out for any little item.
When the road toll is down for a year the cops give themselves a big pat on the back, look at us this is because we patrolled the streets so hard with zero tolerance WTF haven't heard much this year how successful it was. How bad is cruising at 110km's down the road?
Or you have the other end of it, fuckwits out on bail or worse still fuckwits that get some home D.
Now Im not stupid, I know that the blame doesn't lie with the police that we meet every day, its so much higher up the chain and I'm not even going to mention the "car crusher"! But a lot off these cops have such a chip on there shoulder its unbelievable. so yes the majority of the good barstids (mind block) take the shit for it, no different from "all firearms users" are dangerous.
Also I think where some of the digs are coming from is that Policemen (women) are meant to be this highly trained person, they are allowed firearms because they are highly skilled, they are allowed to be in high speed chases because they are highly skilled.
Maybe some of the people that wear the uniform shouldn't take it so personally, its an industry just like everyone else has and there are people within that industry that make it harder for the good buggers.
And no I wouldn't want to be a cop dealing with all those other pricks you have to deal with daily, I have to deal with enough of them as it is.

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## jim160

You say its the Police fault for the poor punishment against the people that stole your shit. How about blaming the justice system and the judge. They pass sentence, not the Police. 

And is if the Police fault they don't have enough staff. How can they be blamed for not been given enough money for staff. 

Seems like you are blaming the wrong people. 

A little unfair to use them as a scapegoat. Yes there are some not so flash police, but majority are very good at their job.

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## screamO

> You say its the Police fault for the poor punishment against the people that stole your shit. How about blaming the justice system and the judge. They pass sentence, not the Police. 
> 
> And is if the Police fault they don't have enough staff. How can they be blamed for not been given enough money for staff. 
> 
> Seems like you are blaming the wrong people.
> 
> 
> A little unfair to use them as a scapegoat. Yes there are some not so flash police, but majority are very good at their job.


You should jump of your high horse and read the part where I blame the people higher up the ladder. But your coment reinforces the rest of what I was saying.

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## Gapped axe

ouch

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## kotuku

tussock-are you accusing me of cultivated ignorance 
cause it sure seems like it.if ,thats if you wanna get personal ,well frankly I couldnt give a proverbial what you may or may not think ,apart from saying you do at times apppear to ramble!goodday to you and the donkey you rode in on!

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## keneff

Remember the mechanic who got fukt in Court because a universal joint he worked on went thru a windscreen and took a driver's head off? Responsibility is the call. This cop should go to jail. full stop.

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## jim160

> Remember the mechanic who got fukt in Court because a universal joint he worked on went thru a windscreen and took a driver's head off? Responsibility is the call. This cop should go to jail. full stop.


Well, the justice system said he was not guilty so he gets to go home.  You can say what you want, but he had a fair trial, and was found not guilty.

The mechanic would have had the same trial, and was found guilty.  That is if he went to trial, I have no idea as I haven't heard about it.  He may have pled guilty, so obviously he would have been convicted.

Did the driver die as a result of his work, or was he injured.  Im guessing he died, given you said it took his head off.  Quite a difference between causing death and causing injury.

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## Jexla

> tussock-are you accusing me of cultivated ignorance 
> cause it sure seems like it.if ,thats if you wanna get personal ,well frankly I couldnt give a proverbial what you may or may not think ,apart from saying you do at times apppear to ramble!goodday to you and the donkey you rode in on!


The king of rambling accuses others of rambling, now I've seen it all.

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## Kscott

> Remember the mechanic who got fukt in Court because a universal joint he worked on went thru a windscreen and took a driver's head off? Responsibility is the call. This cop should go to jail. full stop.


This pesky annoying judicial system we have in NZ  :36 1 5:

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## keneff

It is not just the "Militarisation" of the police - It's the policisation" of the police . That fuckwit O'onnor calls the police the "intimidation arm of government" That should show where they are coming from. If I shot someone because my gear cought and released my safety,I would be busted for incompetence, if nothing else. That cop should face public trial, like anyone else who shot someone.

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## jim160

> It is not just the "Militarisation" of the police - It's the policisation" of the police . That fuckwit O'onnor calls the police the "intimidation arm of government" That should show where they are coming from. If I shot someone because my gear cought and released my safety,I would be busted for incompetence, if nothing else. That cop should face public trial, like anyone else who shot someone.


He was charged by Police. 
He went to trial and was found not guilty.

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## Savage1

> It is not just the "Militarisation" of the police - It's the policisation" of the police . That fuckwit O'onnor calls the police the "intimidation arm of government" That should show where they are coming from. If I shot someone because my gear cought and released my safety,I would be busted for incompetence, if nothing else. That cop should face public trial, like anyone else who shot someone.


I think he's trolling, surely he can't be that ignorant and stupid.

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## Kscott

I learnt a long time ago never to assume anything with people on this forum  :Thumbsup:  including stupidity.

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## kotuku

dont read it if you dont like it pretty boy!youre not too bad yourself at rambling.adios

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## Reindeer

Has this thread actually got a point to it now? 
it seems the points for and against have been discussed thoroughly and its moved into personal attack mode and pistols at 20 paces. 

C'on you guys

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## Recoil

Seems like this Officer's been put through the System and acquitted. May the same process be afforded to any of us in unfortunate circumstances.

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## Kscott

I learnt a long time ago never to assume anything with people on this forum  :Thumbsup:  including stupidity.

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## kotuku

dont read it if you dont like it pretty boy!youre not too bad yourself at rambling.adios

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## Reindeer

Has this thread actually got a point to it now? 
it seems the points for and against have been discussed thoroughly and its moved into personal attack mode and pistols at 20 paces. 

C'on you guys

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## Recoil

Seems like this Officer's been put through the System and acquitted. May the same process be afforded to any of us in unfortunate circumstances.

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## Kscott

I learnt a long time ago never to assume anything with people on this forum  :Thumbsup:  including stupidity.

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## kotuku

dont read it if you dont like it pretty boy!youre not too bad yourself at rambling.adios

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## Reindeer

Has this thread actually got a point to it now? 
it seems the points for and against have been discussed thoroughly and its moved into personal attack mode and pistols at 20 paces. 

C'on you guys

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## Recoil

Seems like this Officer's been put through the System and acquitted. May the same process be afforded to any of us in unfortunate circumstances.

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