# Hunting > Hunting >  Decades of 1080.before and after

## flyingpillock

Hi all

Just a very simple wondering Ive had for a while and havent been able to answer for myself with some admittedly fairly shallow diving in the internet.
I loathe 1080 as most of us do and for all of the reasons we are familiar with. However I acknowledge that there is probably nothing else out there that kills as many of its target species (removing the killing of non targeted species, throwing poison into the outdoors etc etc) so I guess its here to stay for a while.
My question is has anyone quantified its long term effectivenessand by that I mean given NZ probably had a good hundred years where pest animals went unchecked outside of trapping etc and obviously needed to time to build from initial  introduction numbers to a healthy population but I wonder what the numbers were from just before the introduction of 1080 into NZ compared to numbers today after continuous cycles of drops.I guess you have to include declining numbers of species they are wishing to protect into the equation but if there were no further drops would the pest population just reach a natural but possibly acceptable population?
Its an over simplistic question I know but Im sure you get my gist.

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## Tahr

OSPRI are not far off (still a few years though) from having 'possum populations at the level where TB will not be able to be sustained in the remaining population. That will lead to NZ _actually_ being TB free.

Also, objectively viewed, the net benefit from DOC 1080 use has been the saving of species. Imagine no 1080 and the total reliance on trapping. And/or bounties. Fairyland.

I'm a supporter of 1080, and hate it.

Hate seeing by-kill like Kea, but we need to look at the big picture and net benefits and not the one-off or infrequent negative events.

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## Barry the hunter

60-70% of NZ bush remains untreated  and has had no treatment in years -so possum numbers are unchecked in so many areas

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## johnd

I think 1080 has been used for the last 50 years at least, so there is a few cycles done. Prior to its introduction other controls in place would have been 
Other poisons (strichnine, aresenic posphorus on rabbit control. Cyanide on possums, dont think they tried anything on ungulants) 
Shooting on everything from rabbits to Deer
Trapping

1080 means different things to different people, some think of only the effect on native plants and birds such as what DOC are tasked with. For others its the effect on Deer  and for some it is the control for agricultural land such as rabbits and yet others will think of it as a TB use.

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## Tahr

> 60-70% of NZ bush remains untreated  and has had no treatment in years -so possum numbers are unchecked in so many areas


Yes.
OSPRI focus on the TB endemic areas and buffers in order to break the links. From OSPRI's perspective a 'possum population with out TB is ok. They know that we will never wipe 'possums and don't particularly care. Pest free NZ isn't their game.

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## CBH Australia

1080 is effective but to achieve effective pest control you need to knock down something like 60% of the population.

It's hard to ever put a dent in a pest population but allowing recreational hunters access does allow them to put in the effort and expense but the agencies suggest it doesn't work but they don't ever qualify their results.

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## Bos

I spent 20 odd years mixing and handling 1080 on a weekly, if not daily basis. In the early days, it was an effective tool in reducing rabbit and possum populations significantly. Back then we were that busy working hard towards the desired outcome, that no-one actually looked at the bigger picture.
Animal control with any poison is only ever short term. With rabbits, once the environment changed and land-use was altered, ( Dairying in the McKenzie basin, irrigation and subdivision in Central Otago)  the need for most large scale 1080 poison operations largely disappeared. Coupled with the calici virus, landowners got some breathing space. Its obvious today that some capitalised on this, while others did not, and thats one of the reasons why there are still high rabbit numbers in some areas.
Possums are a bit different - still the population knock back, but you cant easily change the environment they live in. So on one hand you've got 1080 control due to high numbers (DOC), and also 1080 operations to eliminate Bovine TB from possums and ferrets as vectors (OSPRI, once Animal Health Board)
On top of all this, nowadays you've got lies, deceit, cover-ups and politics playing a part. I don't know of any simple answer, although maintaining the buffer zones seems to be a big step in the right direction. I don't like that 1080 has become the immediate go-to solution, but maybe it was and still is a necessary evil, time will tell.

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## Mohawk .308

> Imagine no 1080 and the total reliance on trapping. And/or bounties. Fairyland.
> 
> .


Imagine no 1080? Te Urewera is a good example of no 1080

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## Tahr

> Imagine no 1080? Te Urewera is a good example of no 1080


Exactly

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...native-species

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## Maca49

When we are fragmented as a nation, what’s the point, we cannot win

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## flyingpillock

Very interesting and balanced replies…I’ll offer this caveat to my next few sentences…I’m
A towny sort who although curses the regularity that some of my fave hunting spots get hit and the plethora of poison signs when taking a roady on the west coast I guess I’ve just accepted it as it is and other than checking the pesticide summary to protect my pooch before heading away then the only other time it’s brought to my attention is when it pops up in the media…and it seems, at least to me it’s discussed there in conjunction almost solely with mast boom and rat populations….very little talk of TB (although I believe Molesworth/Rainbow have/are being treated due tb?)
Also I guess if I could refine my earlier question….how dire was it in the 50s prior to widespread use of aerial 1080….what was the pest population after 100years without 1080 compared to now after 60 yrs of drops…prevalence of tb then and now….native species numbers?
I don’t have any preformed opinions on these questions just honestly interested in seeing the comparisons and the effectiveness (or not) of  the default solution.
Cheers
FP

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## Mohawk .308

> Exactly
> 
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...native-species


That’s the result of giving management of Te Urewera back to Tuhoe, it was always going to happen. You just have to look at the state of the the tracks and huts on the Lake Waikaremoana walk. Leaving the trapping programme up to Tuhoe was always going to end in disaster.

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## Mohawk .308

> Exactly
> 
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...native-species


I didn’t see 1080 mentioned, just lack of trapping operations from the current management

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## Woody

My studied opinion is that had the hundreds of millions of dollars spent by DoC, AHB and regional councils on 1080 poison operations been invested EXPERTLY on ground based trapping ong with timely fully managed stock movement controls and reliable btb testing then we would have eliminated the agricultural threat of btb ma y years ago and achieved well managed wildlands biodiversity with virtually zero negative effects. The socio- economcic spinoffs to rural communities would also be considerable. It has been a costly excersise for NZ that such a narrow focus of opportunities was/were adopted by officialdom and it's hype.

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## HG Man

I grew up on a farm in the middle of the King Country, surrounded by bush, it would be nothing to shoot 100 possums in a night spot lighting driving down the road. And every farm was TB positive. A few deer around, but not many. I was 19 before I saw a northern rata flower. 

Then when I was about 15 they started carpet bombing the surrounding bush with 1080. My old man talked about the green rain, it was everywhere. I'd love to know how many tonnes they dropped.

Now, its been at least a decade since a TB reactor. Prob been that long since I've seen a possum, even in the fruit trees. More deer, goats and pigs than you can shoot, I counted a mob of 13 last time I was out there. 

People talk about trapping it, I've walked that bush probably more than any man ever. Its thick, dense, wet. Its also full of birds, weta, eels, kiwi, bats. Its as close to NZ before man got here as I can imagine. I'd love to take a 'trap instead of 1080' person into it and see what they think. You couldnt even put tracks through most of it.  

I don't like 1080 and I'd love if there as some other solution. But there isn't. And it works.

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## Micky Duck

HG man....where in central king country??? kaitieke was my home for my teen years and my findings are very similar to yours...
but the buffer thing...when we were all out shooting trapping possums there WAS a buffer ...any easy to get to land/farm land got hammered...so it created a buffer.... isnt that what TB control needs??? low numbers of ferals on farm edges. I know of a VERY big station in central north island that has just discovered they have a major TB issue.

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## longshot

@micky
Kaitieke is a pretty remote place to be able to call home,  back in the 70s my old man as a teenager spent a couple seasons living in a hut in the Upper Retaruke on a block that some friends of his from Wellington had bought.  It was a fairly basic existence judging from stories and photos.  Once a week he used to go and do a days work for the Cocky next door in exchange for some eggs and a shower.

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## Moa Hunter

> OSPRI are not far off (still a few years though) from having 'possum populations at the level where TB will not be able to be sustained in the remaining population. That will lead to NZ _actually_ being TB free.
> 
> Also, objectively viewed, the net benefit from DOC 1080 use has been the saving of species. Imagine no 1080 and the total reliance on trapping. And/or bounties. Fairyland.
> 
> I'm a supporter of 1080, and hate it.
> 
> Hate seeing by-kill like Kea, but we need to look at the big picture and net benefits and not the one-off or infrequent negative events.


I have experience gained from working in Canada, a country declared TB free. I used to export CSL ( Australia ) Tuberculin to the USA for skin testing Elk and was involved when domestic Elk in Alberta imported from the US were found to have TB and the infected herds depopulated. From that experience I have a different perspective based on math. A clinical case TB possum will live two weeks, so it has two weeks to infect other possums or cattle. From this it is easy to calculate the probable infection rate factor for a given population density and this is what Ospri does. Unless possums are at a very high density it is obvious that TB cannot be maintained in possums, they die before they spread it. What is ignored is that Cattle are the natural host of Bovine TB and can carry a latent infection for ten years or more before they develop clinical disease and become infectious. During this 'latent carrier' period they do not react to a skin test. ( They do test positive to a BTB test ) A property with latent infections cannot be cleared using the skin test. Depopulation is the only way to clean up a persistently infected herd. Some herds have been 'I 10' status ( infected ten years ) despite annual air drops of 1080. TB is being 'Farmed' and jobs maintained with this slow control rather than elimination.

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## No.3

I've often wondered what the risk of TB in things like rats is - often seen them scavenging carcasses as well as the usual suspects like fruit, cereal, eggs, raw dairy products, water pipes etc etc.  I've seen rats everywhere I've been in the bush - bloody worse than possums or deer.  Also feral cats - they have the ideal traits to cart TB for a long way...

One of the things that isn't often mentioned with 1080 is that it is especially effective on invertebrates and amphibians, both of which are in short supply in a lot of areas.  I have seen it mentioned as an area requiring further study in many reports, but as yet never seen an actual report on it and the likely effects on biodiversity in that section of the fauna.  Every action has a consequence, and while saving native species is worth it there is a concern that we might be unknowingly doing damage at the other end.

One of the main objections to 1080 is the hugely political and financial nature of it and the neverending battle which seems to be a 'managed partial success' model to keep everyone thinking that we are winning this war and keeping on spending while we do it.

There are a lot of areas that have been dropped with 1080 only to have all the baits destroyed 3-5 days later with the next rain cycle, and a lot of the places that people quote as impossible to treat via ground methods are actually not that bad.  Sure you are limited to carrying capabilities and it will be a long term input of labour and resources rather than a 2-day spray, pray, fly away job - but against that station-protected baits have the potential to maintain efficiacy for weeks if not months against in some cases days for topdressed applications.

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## HG Man

> HG man....where in central king country??? kaitieke was my home for my teen years and my findings are very similar to yours....


Bit north of there, Ohura way. Family hails from down that way, have spent plenty of time in that neck of the woods. 

The buffer issue, I don't really know enough about it really.

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## Copelli

> I grew up on a farm in the middle of the King Country, surrounded by bush, it would be nothing to shoot 100 possums in a night spot lighting driving down the road. And every farm was TB positive. A few deer around, but not many. I was 19 before I saw a northern rata flower. 
> 
> Then when I was about 15 they started carpet bombing the surrounding bush with 1080. My old man talked about the green rain, it was everywhere. I'd love to know how many tonnes they dropped.
> 
> Now, its been at least a decade since a TB reactor. Prob been that long since I've seen a possum, even in the fruit trees. More deer, goats and pigs than you can shoot, I counted a mob of 13 last time I was out there. 
> 
> People talk about trapping it, I've walked that bush probably more than any man ever. Its thick, dense, wet. Its also full of birds, weta, eels, kiwi, bats. Its as close to NZ before man got here as I can imagine. I'd love to take a 'trap instead of 1080' person into it and see what they think. You couldnt even put tracks through most of it.  
> 
> I don't like 1080 and I'd love if there as some other solution. But there isn't. And it works.



So from what you're saying the 1080 has been (very) effective against possums, but not against deer, goats and pigs. But isn't this what we hunters want? - i.e. poison drops NOT wiping out deer populations etc? So, has 1080 in fact been the the Bogey Man we all love to hate?

I'm confused.

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## HG Man

> So from what you're saying the 1080 has been (very) effective against possums, but not against deer, goats and pigs. But isn't this what we hunters want? - i.e. poison drops NOT wiping out deer populations etc? So, has 1080 in fact been the the Bogey Man we all love to hate?
> 
> I'm confused.


I think a lot of people are pretty selective about the facts they acknowledge. Every knows about the native birds that do get killed and oh boy do the anti-1080 crowd love to talk about that. But they always forget to mention that any by-kill is more than made up by successful breeding after predator numbers have dropped. 

My 2 cents.

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## Woody

Benifits would be greater using trapping.

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## tetawa

Pureora Forest has had more than it's share of 1080, possums still live there happily waiting for the next drop. Knocks them back but doesn't eradicate. Many bait stations in one area I roam lucky to have been attended once in 3 years.

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## Mohawk .308

They’d be a lot better off putting all their efforts into off shore islands for our endangered species, at least making them predator free could actually be achievable. NZ predator free 2050 is a laughable.

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## kruza

This timeline traces the introduction of pest mammal species to New Zealand, the use of 1080 for pest control and how advances in science and technology have improved how we use it.
https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/inte...rol-a-timeline

Interesting. Not bogged down with data. Good simple overview.

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## sore head stoat

> They’d be a lot better off putting all their efforts into off shore islands for our endangered species, at least making them predator free could actually be achievable. NZ predator free 2050 is a laughable.


I am not 100% confident that it is achievable but I sure as hell wouldnt say its laughable and right the idea off completely. 

10 yrs ago did you think they would have self re setting traps that only needed a battery change every 6 months ?  Did you ever imagine they would of had traps that had audio attraction powers ? Do you think that in the near future you will have live capture traps that can identify what species is in the trap and that the trap will select if it is the correct species and thus spring the trap shut and send a signal by remote sensor or even  kill the species selected and reset itself ?

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## Mohawk .308

> I am not 100% confident that it is achievable but I sure as hell wouldnt say its laughable and right the idea off completely. 
> 
> 10 yrs ago did you think they would have self re setting traps that only needed a battery change every 6 months ?  Did you ever imagine they would of had traps that had audio attraction powers ? Do you think that in the near future you will have live capture traps that can identify what species is in the trap and that the trap will select if it is the correct species and thus spring the trap shut and send a signal by remote sensor or even  kill the species selected and reset itself ?


It’s good to have dreams but do you honestly think NZ could get rid of every rat in the country? What about those trap shy rats?
A great goal to have but let’s put a bit of reality around it. It’s a bit like smoke free 2025. A great goal to have but everyone with half a clue knows it will never happen.

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## Tahr

> They’d be a lot better off putting all their efforts into off shore islands for our endangered species, at least making them predator free could actually be achievable. NZ predator free 2050 is a laughable.


This alternative view might resonate with you then. They don't go so far as to say the policy is laughable though.

https://conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.c...111/conl.12593

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## ANOTHERHUNTER

Easiest way to hammer pests is to make them worth decent money. Look at the deer population from the 1930s ( granted it was war time) , then in the 1980s when they were pretty scarce because of meat hunting and farming , till  now they are out of control again . as they have minimal value for some strange reason.

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## Micky Duck

I believe it would be of far better econimic and practicle value to make little islands of sanctuary all over the show,wherever geography lends itself to doing it and nuke those areas really hard to kill off all the bad species then reintroduce the desirable ones....and keep them pest free manually,trap ,shoot,monitor....
they would end up acting as nurseries with excess populations going out into big brave dangerous world.
I believe the trick to keeping possum numbers down is a big hit then continual bait stations ,trapping or shooting....  as said before if you want buffer zones,make it economically viable and attractive to go after them possums either full time or full on part time...the bounty idea has been bandied about for years... just as an EG ...the Beemans...Mr &Mrs   go out and trap possums,pluck the fur and sell the bodies..now if you gave them say $2-5 per set of ears ASWELL..... it really starts to add up....
the cockies kids would start to run trap line again.... and so what if road kill gets scalped and handed in??? its a dead possum=a good possum
people would only target the easy country,others will say...again so what??? thats the buffer zone you WANT TARGETED,its the landscape with cattle on it or close by.

why I detest 1080 is Ive seen how it kills dogs....its really ugly to put it mildly.... dogs are very suseptable and it only takes a tiny bit of poison or dead carcass to kill a dog.... family friend lost 16 dogs in one night,while they were overseas representing NZ in sport.....possum bodies had been bought from regular supplier...what no one knew was that a person had collected bodies from a 1080 drop zone....sold them to possum buyer and the rest is history.

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## bigbear

> Easiest way to hammer pests is to make them worth decent money. Look at the deer population from the 1930s ( granted it was war time) , then in the 1980s when they were pretty scarce because of meat hunting and farming , till  now they are out of control again . as they have minimal value for some strange reason.


If they had put a bounty on possom 20 years ago there would be shit loads less then there is now, its pretty hard to justify a night shoot at the moment time you pay for ammo and time plucking and i don't need to take travel cost.

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## Mohawk .308

> If they had put a bounty on possom 20 years ago there would be shit loads less then there is now, its pretty hard to justify a night shoot at the moment time you pay for ammo and time plucking and i don't need to take travel cost.


That might knock the possum numbers down but what about the real villain? The rat..

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## sore head stoat

> Its good to have dreams but do you honestly think NZ could get rid of every rat in the country? What about those trap shy rats?
> A great goal to have but lets put a bit of reality around it. Its a bit like smoke free 2025. A great goal to have but everyone with half a clue knows it will never happen.


With current technology no I dont think predator free 2050 is possible but do you think trap technology will continue to improve ?

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## No.3

Fark we'll never de-rat NZ.  Not with the numbers in urban and urban/rural interface areas...

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## Black Rabbit

> I am not 100% confident that it is achievable but I sure as hell wouldnt say its laughable and right the idea off completely. 
> 
> 10 yrs ago did you think they would have self re setting traps that only needed a battery change every 6 months ?  Did you ever imagine they would of had traps that had audio attraction powers ? Do you think that in the near future you will have live capture traps that can identify what species is in the trap and that the trap will select if it is the correct species and thus spring the trap shut and send a signal by remote sensor or even  kill the species selected and reset itself ?


Those type of traps, has already in the market, but not with all the features as you mentions. To put it together, 8 months tops for prototype, back to back tests, go to market in two years of time. How hard it could be, just question of market size, how willing this govt want to move to real environment free solution

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## Mohawk .308

> With current technology no I dont think predator free 2050 is possible but do you think trap technology will continue to improve ?


Definitely, those good nature traps are great and I’m sure they will only improve. Rats are cunning bastards though, just try and catch a trap shy one. Bloody near impossible unless you shoot it

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## TeRei

The issue being how rats reproduce from a young age similarly like stoats. For sheer versatility as a hunter the stoat would be hard to beat anywhere in the world. When they can run up sheer rock faces it is a sight to behold. My dogs years ago "killed" a stoat [like in giving it a sizeable munching] It lay knackered on the river bed and we turned around and it was gone.

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## Micky Duck

> Fark we'll never de-rat NZ.  Not with the numbers in urban and urban/rural interface areas...


not to mention..it only takes two to jump ship and we back to scratch again.

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## Woody

Rat populations get a partial knockback after 1080 poison drops but then breed rapidly to far exceed the original population within 18 months. The phenomenon known as rat irruptions.

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## Black Rabbit

> I have experience gained from working in Canada, a country declared TB free. I used to export CSL ( Australia ) Tuberculin to the USA for skin testing Elk and was involved when domestic Elk in Alberta imported from the US were found to have TB and the infected herds depopulated. From that experience I have a different perspective based on math. A clinical case TB possum will live two weeks, so it has two weeks to infect other possums or cattle. From this it is easy to calculate the probable infection rate factor for a given population density and this is what Ospri does. Unless possums are at a very high density it is obvious that TB cannot be maintained in possums, they die before they spread it. What is ignored is that Cattle are the natural host of Bovine TB and can carry a latent infection for ten years or more before they develop clinical disease and become infectious. During this 'latent carrier' period they do not react to a skin test. ( They do test positive to a BTB test ) A property with latent infections cannot be cleared using the skin test. Depopulation is the only way to clean up a persistently infected herd. Some herds have been 'I 10' status ( infected ten years ) despite annual air drops of 1080. TB is being 'Farmed' and jobs maintained with this slow control rather than elimination.


Wise man, you are. It like British once before award for every cobra caught in India, then Indians started to farm cobra, And zero covid policy in NZ and in China, both for political gain. Once started something, you can `t stop it immediately, like stopping a 60 cars of train. Those big players, person sits behind front...China still run massive PCR test, lockdown, why? Despite coming election, one day, in a city like Akl, can generate 20,000,000 dollars per day to contribute to GDP and those profiteer who has accesses.

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## sore head stoat

> Rat populations get a partial knockback after 1080 poison drops but then breed rapidly to far exceed the original population within 18 months. The phenomenon known as rat irruptions.


Got a link ?

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## Woody

Not sure if this website still rxists but try  googleing rat irruptions. Or www.1080science.co.nz

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## No.3

> Got a link ?


Yeah there is info out there - I used to have a hardcopy of a paper on it.  Quite staggering how resilient the little bastards are, and how responsive they are to population pressures.  The phrase "cunning as a rat" didn't happen by accident!  The self-management aspect of the species to respond to events outside their species' control is actually quite frightening, if an event causes them to run out of sufficient food they simply eat each other until things level back out...

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## Mohawk .308

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/...80-poison-drop

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## sore head stoat

> Not sure if this website still rxists but try  googleing rat irruptions. Or www.1080science.co.nz


Yip I googled ship rat irruptions and came up with this https://www.doc.govt.nz/globalassets...al/casn318.pdf

I couldnt find anywhere in that paper where it says 1080 can cause ship rat irruptions. What I did find is that they are caused by food supply .

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## sore head stoat

> https://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/...80-poison-drop




https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC11...jo-pollard.htm

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## kruza

Im not sure why baited drops with some form of sterility compounds arnt done. Animals wouldn't know they couldnt produce offspring and if there is no ill effect from eating baits, that they notice they keep eating,this encouragres more wary animals its safe. If the cost is high intially it must balance out over time.
 Dont know what hb council did but I havent seen a possum on this farm since they did their big eradicaton program. ( bait stations on farm are topped up with poison baits a couple times a year but still no possums)
Truthfully though im glad its worked, I miss going out for a few hours a couple of times a week possum shooting.

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## Mohawk .308

> https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC11...jo-pollard.htm


I wouldn’t expect anything less from DoC.

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## Moa Hunter

I think feral cats are a bigger problem than in the past - that is they have gotten bigger. Cats readily eat possum but they were a little small and light to kill an adult possum. I speculate that cats have selected towards a bigger cat, better matched to possums as a primary food source.
With an unlimited food source in possums ( easy for a cat to catch a possum a night) I expect that we will see more and more of these genetically adapted big cats in the bush to the detriment of Kiwi and Weka, Blue Duck etc

I have only once ever seen a possum eating flesh, but I have seen very high bird populations alongside very high possum numbers. They do bugger the bush and the avian food supply but from observation they seem to be a very minor predator.

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## Barry the hunter

after nearly 35 years in the industry I can clear up some of the ideas put foward here 1) a bounty  - will never work  why  a) cannot be specifically targeted to where its needed - lets say you have a block of bush with the last population of a very rare bird - how can paying for a possum shot on a farm or rural road possibly help -70% of bush in NZ receives no money or control -what little money there is is targeted to where its needed- b) to achieve  effective control 95%  + of possums must be removed -a bounty would only take out less than 10% in any given area  and even then that's very  optimistic - some Scientists put it as low as 3-4%  - the remaining possums will breed faster than the extremely small no a bounty would achieve  -a bounty is a complete waste of money and will achieve nothing and DOC know it  . Sterility control - not there yet and DOC are not going to aerially sow a sterile bait even if we had it when they can sow 1080 and kill possums end of story - we may see a change in that but there is very little money going into research - no we are stuck with 1080 for now - all we can do is keep them honest - deer repellant in all areas of popular recreational hunting -no 1080 near water supplys

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## No.3

Problem with the water supplies one is every area is a water supply catchment in NZ, and the steeper the country the further out the baits have to be.  Bounty isn't a full solution but the biggest objection is the lack of statistics, accountability and the politics of it (money removed from the pockets of a small number of individuals and spread out at a lesser amount to a larger number of people).  We have to accept that this stopped being about best outcomes for the environment a long time ago.

Pest control in NZ is NOT JUST POSSUM.  This is the biggest issue with 1080 - some of the biggest bird predators are not targetted by poison drops and until we get onto that aspect of it we just are not going to get to predator free anything.

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## Woody

> Yip I googled ship rat irruptions and came up with this https://www.doc.govt.nz/globalassets...al/casn318.pdf
> 
> I couldnt find anywhere in that paper where it says 1080 can cause ship rat irruptions. What I did find is that they are caused by food supply .


In other words aerially poisoning enhances rats food supply. Very clever eh.  (Then they breed to higher numbers than pre poison drop ay   :Have A Nice Day:

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## HG Man

> Im not sure why baited drops with some form of sterility compounds arnt done. Animals wouldn't know they couldnt produce offspring and if there is no ill effect from eating baits, that they notice they keep eating,this encouragres more wary animals its safe. If the cost is high intially it must balance out over time.


Thats gene editing or modification and the Greens don't like that. Plus there are concerns that the edited genes could infect other populations, like possums in Australia and mustelids in Nothern Hemisphere. Personally, I couldn't give 2 shits what the Greens think, nor do I care about other countries. 

It would make Predator 2050 into Predator 2035.\

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## sore head stoat

> In other words aerially poisoning enhances rats food supply. Very clever eh.  (Then they breed to higher numbers than pre poison drop ay



No mast years enhance the food supply, then the rats breed like buggery.

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## Woody

They drop lots of poison on masting afeas ay--

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## No.3

> No mast years enhance the food supply, then the rats breed like buggery.


It's a little more complicated than that, as different species 'mast' at different times.  The 'mega mast' events they keep going on about I am told come about through multiple species going to seed one after the other.  Knocking competition out of the running helps the rats, but also multiple litters throughout a year with warm temps and ample food just explodes things more.  Rats are capable of reproducting at around the 10-weeks mark, gestation of 3 weeks and rinse and repeat.  Efficient...

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## sore head stoat

> It's a little more complicated than that, as different species 'mast' at different times.  The 'mega mast' events they keep going on about I am told come about through multiple species going to seed one after the other.  Knocking competition out of the running helps the rats, but also multiple litters throughout a year with warm temps and ample food just explodes things more.  Rats are capable of reproducting at around the 10-weeks mark, gestation of 3 weeks and rinse and repeat.  Efficient...


It may be a "little" more complicated than that but it is basically that.. rats breed like buggery when there is truck loads of feed.

----------


## Remmodel7

> I grew up on a farm in the middle of the King Country, surrounded by bush, it would be nothing to shoot 100 possums in a night spot lighting driving down the road. And every farm was TB positive. A few deer around, but not many. I was 19 before I saw a northern rata flower. 
> 
> Then when I was about 15 they started carpet bombing the surrounding bush with 1080. My old man talked about the green rain, it was everywhere. I'd love to know how many tonnes they dropped.
> 
> Now, its been at least a decade since a TB reactor. Prob been that long since I've seen a possum, even in the fruit trees. More deer, goats and pigs than you can shoot, I counted a mob of 13 last time I was out there. 
> 
> People talk about trapping it, I've walked that bush probably more than any man ever. Its thick, dense, wet. Its also full of birds, weta, eels, kiwi, bats. Its as close to NZ before man got here as I can imagine. I'd love to take a 'trap instead of 1080' person into it and see what they think. You couldnt even put tracks through most of it.  
> 
> I don't like 1080 and I'd love if there as some other solution. But there isn't. And it works.


Yup exactly same thing for me in the king country..
Seeing a wood pigeon was a rarity but now we see mobs of up to 25.
Unfortunately for me it's a necessary evil. It's not the poison it's the application however I don't see any other viable options.

----------


## Sideshow

I must say thats a very sad report that @Tahr posted.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...native-species
Read it twice.
Just sad that all the hard work of the 90's that those guys put in has gone to waste.

----------


## MB

Reality check. Te Urewera is no longer part of NZ in terms of governance. Time to move on.

----------


## Woody

It really is unfortunate that that Nth Urewera project which concentrated on permanent trap lines and pest species specific trapping to be very successful without using aerial poisons has been neglected. It was the most promising viable alternative management concept avoiding the use of 1080 poison. It should have set the path for Tuhoe future environmental management of the Te Urewera. The political tenderfooting since is pitiful.
  Same for the rest of NZ too

----------


## Sideshow

I wonder what the DOCs budget for the trap work that was carried out in that area at the time of hand over was? 
Add inflation and what it would have been now, would this equal the 2m more that there asking for on top of what they already get??

----------


## HarryMax

> ....I'm a supporter of 1080, and hate it....


Couldn't have put it better myself. If there was anything else that was effective I would support that instead. 

Little interest piece - there was a project to make a virus that would make the TB vectors (possums/stoats etc) infertile but funding was cut.

Source - I used to work for the Animal Health Board, over a decade ago now - it's now Ospri.

To expand on the TB thing, as far as I know we are the only country in the world that has TB infected herds and cattle and deer and is still allowed to export meat. Australia and America had it but managed to eradicate it.

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## Maca49

Reading through this thread, it would seem there’s to much money in 1080?

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## Rusky

> Little interest piece - there was a project to make a virus that would make the TB vectors (possums/stoats etc) infertile but funding was cut.


That there is the nail in the coffin and the only way forward for full pest eradication as far as I'm concerned.

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## Woody

The actual costs averave over $60 per hectare. If they offered that for gridded trapping the ques for the career would be very long; and they know it. The cost would be paid out per three to four years  so employees working over ratational areas would still achieve a substantial income.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> I must say thats a very sad report that @Tahr posted.
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...native-species
> Read it twice.
> Just sad that all the hard work of the 90's that those guys put in has gone to waste.


It was always going to happen unfortunately. It was a huge mistake to hand over management of Te Urewera to Tuhoe.

----------


## sore head stoat

> The actual costs averave over $60 per hectare. If they offered that for gridded trapping the ques for the career would be very long; and they know it. The cost would be paid out per three to four years  so employees working over ratational areas would still achieve a substantial income.


The actual costs average over $60 per ha... is this one 1080 operation ? What does the $60 include ? 

Lets talk all species, how many hectares do you think one trapper [using traps only] can control and get all pests down to the level a 1080 operation will achieve ? cost of traps per ha ?

----------


## Woody

One operation. Includes rc ad.in poison aircraft and manpower. The AHB audit reported  $57 per ha way back in 2012 and up to $85 in remote areas.

----------


## HG Man

> The actual costs averave over $60 per hectare. If they offered that for gridded trapping the ques for the career would be very long; and they know it. The cost would be paid out per three to four years  so employees working over ratational areas would still achieve a substantial income.


Whats the per hectare cost of cutting tracks, carrying in traps and the checking/rebaiting of them? I'd say at least 10x that. I don't think its quite the career you imagine.

----------


## Average-Lad

The more area's we can band together to do hunter lead pest control through trapping then the less area's will get hit by 1080... I'd hope at least. 

Rakia herd is at risk right now for planned 1080 drops in the coming months, I wonder if we had good trapping happening in lots of the valleys if that would have changed things. Or maybe trapping will never be enough on its own?

----------


## sore head stoat

> The actual costs averave over $60 per hectare. If they offered that for gridded trapping the ques for the career would be very long; and they know it. The cost would be paid out per three to four years  so employees working over ratational areas would still achieve a substantial income.


How many ha can one trapper trap [no toxins] covering all species as a full time job ?

----------


## Woody

Been thru all this in past threads and not going to write it all over again. In very simple terms for you each trap position will cater for 2 ha. A 100 position grid line will cover 200 ha over  a disyance of 10000m or 10 km. Repeat the monitoring of these positions around three times. 
Work it thru. Allow time for line cuutting of permanent grid type pattrrn adjusted for catchment shape. It had been done before and should become a fully formalised system elsewhere.

----------


## sore head stoat

> Been thru all this in past threads and not going to write it all over again. In very simple terms for you each trap position will cater for 2 ha. A 100 position grid line will cover 200 ha over  a disyance of 10000m or 10 km. Repeat the monitoring of these positions around three times. 
> Work it thru. Allow time for line cuutting of permanent grid type pattrrn adjusted for catchment shape. It had been done before and should become a fully formalised system elsewhere.




My presumption is you are talking about Doc type kill traps targetting mustelids and rats ? 
Well if you think a trap every 2 ha will cover rats you have no chance. North Island forest , a male rat has a range of 1.1ha , females the range was down as low as 0.3 ha. That is a shit load of rats [particularly females] that will never even see your trap ! 

 What density will you use on cats and type of trap ? Possums and type of trap ?

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## Woody

200 ha per 10km line = $13,000+ . @ $65+.
Plenty of leeway and time. Go figure. Kill rat another comes along. Put 10  rat traps around each position etc. It's called initiative..

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## sore head stoat

> 200 ha per 10km line = $13,000+ . @ $65+.
> Plenty of leeway and time. Go figure. Kill rat another comes along. Put 10  rat traps around each position etc. It's called initiative..


so now we have up to 11 traps per ha ??

No there is not plenty of lee way and sure as there aint plenty of time if you strike a mast year... you wont be able to get around your traps quick enough. They will be full 2hrs after you have checked them or the bait will off been eaten off by mice...

----------


## longshot

At work we get through about 30-40 DOC 250 traps per day.  It gets time consuming when you do it properly (don’t touch the bait with hands,  clean out the soupy hedgehog,  grub the grass off the entryway of the trap but not too deep to leave a puddle)  This is with a drive time of <30 minutes to sight.  The running cost of an employee is ~$500 per day.  (wages/vehicle/training/ppe etc)  Servicing cost per trap per day works out at around $15.  

I do about 50 a24 per day on my volunteering on my day off.  That’s a pretty big day.  Going from the above you could say $10 per service for A24 traps.

Transport to sight is often the biggest thief of time,  if you’re not trapping close to the road the numbers above go out the window.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Been thru all this in past threads and not going to write it all over again. In very simple terms for you each trap position will cater for 2 ha. A 100 position grid line will cover 200 ha over  a disyance of 10000m or 10 km. Repeat the monitoring of these positions around three times. 
> Work it thru. Allow time for line cuutting of permanent grid type pattrrn adjusted for catchment shape. It had been done before and should become a fully formalised system elsewhere.


Possums aren't evenly spread across forest, they use ridges and have legs to get there so I agree pretty easy to run bait stations or trap lines that will keep numbers down. After all it is because of ground based poisoning (cyanide) and traps that kept the possum population low over the whole of NZ for years until the anti fur green lobby buggered the market.

----------


## Moutere

> Possums aren't evenly spread across forest, they use ridges and have legs to get there so I agree pretty easy to run bait stations or trap lines that will keep numbers down. After all it is because of ground based poisoning (cyanide) and traps that kept the possum population low over the whole of NZ for years until the anti fur green lobby buggered the market.


In regard to possums only: rather than just keep numbers down, bureaucrats and bean counters can opt for aerial application that can approach and sometimes achieve statistical 100% kills. Post application monitoring typically ran at around 97-100 percent in my experience.  Not to mention the rat by-kill.
Its a fiscal no brainer.
In my opinion the fur industry kept a cap on possum numbers just like government cullers kept a cap on deer numbers post war, a loosing battle.

----------


## Woody

Take $65 per ha off the aerial poison indistry and offer it to ground based and see what happens. Money talks. E.g. The deer wars. Enterprising businesses and people might surprise the currrent thinking.

----------


## HarryMax

I thought an issue of relying on traps is the inaccessibility/lack of tracks/general denseness of large sections of the bush.

That is a big factor right?

----------


## Moutere

> Take $65 per ha off the aerial poison indistry and offer it to ground based and see what happens. Money talks. E.g. The deer wars. Enterprising businesses and people might surprise the currrent thinking.


Exactly. Money talks. 
The deers wars came and went. Now deer numbers steadily increase without the same magnitude of pressure from private enterprise as cost, compliance and complexity increase and markets change with the passage of time.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> In regard to possums only: rather than just keep numbers down, bureaucrats and bean counters can opt for aerial application that can approach and sometimes achieve statistical 100% kills. Post application monitoring typically ran at around 97-100 percent in my experience.  Not to mention the rat by-kill.
> It’s a fiscal no brainer.
> In my opinion the fur industry kept a cap on possum numbers just like government cullers kept a cap on deer numbers post war, a loosing battle.


I dont have the records anymore but in a nutshell, when skin prices were very high the annual export sales through PGG and Wilson Neil of dried skins ( 1970's - mid 80's ) were declining each year because pressure on the possum population was greater than reproduction could support. There was not a square metre of bush anywhere that hadn't been poisoned or trapped. Every winter thousands of blokes headed into bush camps, many being flown in. As an example a friend of mine spent three months in the Mungo, tents and skin drying shelters flown in. Wool packs of dried skins flown out most graded 'firsts'
There is no question that 1080 drops reduce possum populations better than anything else which is a positive but there are negatives as well and continual drops are very injurious to birds and invertebrates.

----------


## Woody

Agreed. However the pest problem costs are not directly linked to any market. The heli shooting of deer was never subsidised by govt either and if this were the generally case today I have no doubt there would be more of it done. There may be a few especially targeted areas but these just serve to demonstrate there are alternatives to aerial poison.

----------


## Moutere

> continual drops are very injurious to birds and invertebrates.


But not as continual as predation. 
But I guess that is part of the complexity of this debate as sometimes the driver is TB control and sometimes it is conservation. 
My overriding opinion is that if aerial poisoning are too injurious to a block of land, then bird/wildlife sanctuaries wouldn’t work and thrive like they do. 
Blue ducks aren’t thriving in the Able Tasman at the moment through natural processes..

----------


## Moa Hunter

> But not as continual as predation. 
> But I guess that is part of the complexity of this debate as sometimes the driver is TB control and sometimes it is conservation. 
> My overriding opinion is that if aerial poisoning are too injurious to a block of land, then bird/wildlife sanctuaries wouldn’t work and thrive like they do. 
> Blue ducks aren’t thriving in the Able Tasman at the moment through natural processes..


Where are the sanctuaries ( with good expanding bird populations ) that get aerial poisoning all the time ?

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## Moutere

Where are the areas immune to declining native species without poisoning?

You know as well as I do there is no point in repeat poisoning if there are no predators.

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## Moutere

> Take $65 per ha off the aerial poison indistry and offer it to ground based and see what happens. Money talks. E.g. The deer wars. Enterprising businesses and people might surprise the currrent thinking.


How would you put and individual or crew into the Karamea bend, mobilise and sustain the operation for $65/ Ha?

----------


## Woody

I dont know the Karamea bend so cant comment on that specific.  Looking back over my 60 years as an adult I see patterns of historical devolution of wild animal control and the factors influencing that. Amongst those devolvements are human and bureaucratic and fiscal influences particularly from officialdom which imo restricted much in the way of innovation characterised by other private enterprise. Self sustaning bureaucracies. I think without the use by official bureaucrats of the jaw breaker bits preventing funding of free enterprise to address the issues sensibly we would today be seeing a vastly more efficient management of both game animals and pests.

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## Moa Hunter

> How would you put and individual or crew into the Karamea bend, mobilise and sustain the operation for $65/ Ha?


What is the poison drop frequency / return ?

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## Moutere

> What is the poison drop frequency / return ?


Wouldn’t have a clue, hazard a guess at 4 or five years?

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## Woody

Amusing ay. I can recall DoC and AHB Assurring the ERMA review of 1080 (2007) that frequency would  ot need to exceed once in 7 years. They spun it big time.

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## ebf

> Where are the sanctuaries ( with good expanding bird populations ) that get aerial poisoning all the time ?


MH, continued aerial poisoning is not really how the sanctuary model works.

They tend to do initial aerial drops to eradicate pest species within a fenced off area, and then go into a "maintenance mode" where the emphasis is more on tracking tunnels, regular sweeps with mustelid detection dogs and monitoring of the bird population to identify any incursions. Obviously a lot of work on the sidelines to maintain and check fences etc.

Some of the older sanctuaries (Karori) had fences where the mesh design allowed juvenile mice to enter. In those sanctuaries there is a yearly ground based bait operation (Brodifacoum ?) to deal with mice.

I am not aware of any of the fenced sanctuaries that continue with aerial poisoning once the initial pest knock-down is done.

The expanding bird population at places like Zealandia, Pukaha, Maungatauteri and Orokonui is well documented.

----------


## johnd

We need to release more Lions and Tigers. That would take care of the pesty Deer. (and poachers) when the deer are gone the rats and possums would be next.

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## Woody

Cougars could be interesting  :Have A Nice Day:

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## johnd

We have cougars already @Woody,  in some of the pubs usually is where they hide at night....very predatory too!  :Wink:

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## Woody

Set them loose bro ! Just train em not to eat carrots.

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## Happy Jack

Having been involved with the Nelson sanctuary since my wife was their first ever paid employee, they did an initial drop of Brodificum as soon as possible after the fence was finished and then a second drop a few weeks later. It should never need doing again as if they have a breach of the monitored fence they rapidly initiate a trapping and monitoring plan in the localised area.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> MH, continued aerial poisoning is not really how the sanctuary model works.
> 
> They tend to do initial aerial drops to eradicate pest species within a fenced off area, and then go into a "maintenance mode" where the emphasis is more on tracking tunnels, regular sweeps with mustelid detection dogs and monitoring of the bird population to identify any incursions. Obviously a lot of work on the sidelines to maintain and check fences etc.
> 
> Some of the older sanctuaries (Karori) had fences where the mesh design allowed juvenile mice to enter. In those sanctuaries there is a yearly ground based bait operation (Brodifacoum ?) to deal with mice.
> 
> I am not aware of any of the fenced sanctuaries that continue with aerial poisoning once the initial pest knock-down is done.
> 
> The expanding bird population at places like Zealandia, Pukaha, Maungatauteri and Orokonui is well documented.


I have nothing but admiration for the fenced sanctuaries and no criticism at all. I think we are discussing the continued poisoning drops over open bush areas.

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## Moutere

> Having been involved with the Nelson sanctuary since my wife was their first ever paid employee, they did an initial drop of Brodificum as soon as possible after the fence was finished and then a second drop a few weeks later. It should never need doing again as if they have a breach of the monitored fence they rapidly initiate a trapping and monitoring plan in the localised area.


That was kind of my point earlier, they get a far heavier initial and follow up dose at their inception, with no obvious long term negative effects.
Also with a far more persistent toxins than sodium fluoroacetate.

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## Barry the hunter

just thought would pass on some tips about rat trapping gleaned from many years of work on them - A young lady did a thesis on what was the best prefeed lure for rats so it was no 1) peanut butter 2)  white chocolate buttons  3) Marzipan icing   way down the list were what one might think such as cheese and bacon - but prefeeding was very important - very cautious feeders - little taste first - then again and again until caution over and gobble - incidentally mice never get past the cautious taste regime that's why so hard to poison - most people go wrong with putting out a heap of bait and thinking yup rats gone - no little bit little bit little bit and once strong feeding then wham -good luck

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## Woody

I've been using cahe traps about the place and once aged a bit they catch rsts well with peanut butter bait. I usually smear a very thin trail into the cage as well, as enticement.  I have also caught several birds especially thrushes and waxeyes in the cage traps and easily release them unharmed.

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## Moa Hunter

> Having been involved with the Nelson sanctuary since my wife was their first ever paid employee, they did an initial drop of Brodificum as soon as possible after the fence was finished and then a second drop a few weeks later. It should never need doing again as if they have a breach of the monitored fence they rapidly initiate a trapping and monitoring plan in the localised area.


I dont think that Brodi is airdropped anymore ? Been a few problems:
  The impacts of brodifacoum-poisoning operations
on populations of non-target species that might have
eaten baits have been monitored in several studies.
Three indigenous bird species (western weka,
Stewart Island weka, and pukeko) have been severely reduced in poisoned areas. For example, the
entire population of western weka on Tawhitinui
Island was exterminated by consumption of Talon®
50WB intended for ship rats, which they obtained
by reaching into bait stations, by eating baits dropped
by rats, and by eating dead or dying rats (Taylor
1984). About 80-90% of the Stewart Island weka on

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Having been involved with the Nelson sanctuary since my wife was their first ever paid employee, they did an initial drop of Brodificum as soon as possible after the fence was finished and then a second drop a few weeks later. It should never need doing again as if they have a breach of the monitored fence they rapidly initiate a trapping and monitoring plan in the localised area.


I dont think that Brodi is airdropped anymore ? Been a few problems:
  "The impacts of brodifacoum-poisoning operations
on populations of non-target species that might have
eaten baits have been monitored in several studies.
Three indigenous bird species (western weka,
Stewart Island weka, and pukeko) have been severely reduced in poisoned areas. For example, the
entire population of western weka on Tawhitinui
Island was exterminated by consumption of Talon®
50WB intended for ship rats, which they obtained
by reaching into bait stations, by eating baits dropped
by rats, and by eating dead or dying rats (Taylor
1984). About 80-90% of the Stewart Island weka on etc "

----------


## Moutere

Yes, Brodifacoum was used and aerially applied for the Brook Sanctuary. 
As have most other of the offshore predator free islands.

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## Stocky

> So from what you're saying the 1080 has been (very) effective against possums, but not against deer, goats and pigs. But isn't this what we hunters want? - i.e. poison drops NOT wiping out deer populations etc? So, has 1080 in fact been the the Bogey Man we all love to hate?
> 
> I'm confused.


Very area, season, density dependent as seen by the molesworth study seeing 90+% kill rate in deer and even pretty bloody high with deer repellant.

----------


## Tahr

> Very area, season, density dependent as seen by the molesworth study seeing 90+% kill rate in deer and even pretty bloody high with deer repellant.


From OSPRI to me... 14/09/21

I am writing to update you on our TBfree aerial operations at* Molesworth & Muller Stations* this winter.  
OSPRI’s TBfree programme is continuously reviewing operational effectiveness and seeking to reduce environmental impacts and we have completed trialling of aerial low sow baiting and deer repellent over approximately 70,000 total hectares at Bush Gully, Tarndale, Saxton and Severn blocks. 
From recent findings of possum control trials undertaken by Manaaki Whenua Landcare Research, we have learned 100% of radio collared possums across all treatment areas were eradicated within 5 days of the aerial 1080 operation. The possum control work was timed to coincide with the start of winter to enable quicker detoxification of aerial 1080 baits.  
This approach has proved to be successful and will support our long-term goal of reducing possum numbers to sustainable levels so that the cycle of wildlife TB infection in cattle herds at Molesworth will be broken. 
Manaaki Whenua Landcare Research undertook deer repellent trials to investigate how OSPRI can minimise impacts on feral deer and reduce mortality rates following aerial pest control operations. Orillion bait incorporated with deer repellent (Prodeer) was spread across the entire treatment area and the results show that it has performed well in the Molesworth high country environment.   

SUMMARY OF RESULTS:  
·       Possum kill: Possum control efficacy was high under all three baiting treatments. 100% collared possum mortality is reported to have happened within 5 days of the aerial operation commencing.  
·       Deer by-kill: In the Bush Gully & Tarndale blocks (standard 2kg/ha broadcast) 39 radio collared deer were confirmed present in the block at the time of the aerial operation. Of the 39, 2 deer died on the day of the aerial operation, indicating an estimated incidental by-kill of 5.1%  
Researchers also observed 358 non-collared deer within the treatment area, 351 were alive, 7 dead.

----------


## Shamus_

So by-kill of deer is either 90+% or 5% ...

----------


## No.3

> Exactly. Money talks. 
> The deers wars came and went. Now deer numbers steadily increase without the same magnitude of pressure from private enterprise as cost, compliance and complexity increase and markets change with the passage of time.


The markets for venison still exist for one example - however they have been severely constrained due to large areas where animals cannot be taken for consumption due to the risk of residual levels of poison detecable in the animal products.  Any shipment heading overseas needs to be at zero detectable, or the entire shipment is canned which couold run many tens of containers.  Financial suicide to risk it...  I know of a few outfits that could start up export tomorrow if not for the risk - this is the same as recently found with 1080 detectable residues in certain honey products.  

Poisoning is a solution, that is true but the answer I don't think is solely poisoning and solely 'uncontrolled' air dropping as the broadcast method.  Applying the bait by station, logging/documenting and either disposing or recovering of carcasses, and recovery of unused baits as well as funding a research regime for testing and establishing levels of residual poisons across the feral populations would go a long way towards allowing a commercial control mechanism to restart.  Against that - you have a lot of potential for spatial conflict on increasing numbers of people wanting to utilise a shrinking allocation for resource (this is the same problem with commercial/recreational fisheries in a nutshell).

----------


## No.3

> just thought would pass on some tips about rat trapping gleaned from many years of work on them - A young lady did a thesis on what was the best prefeed lure for rats so it was no 1) peanut butter 2)  white chocolate buttons  3) Marzipan icing   way down the list were what one might think such as cheese and bacon - but prefeeding was very important - very cautious feeders - little taste first - then again and again until caution over and gobble - incidentally mice never get past the cautious taste regime that's why so hard to poison - most people go wrong with putting out a heap of bait and thinking yup rats gone - no little bit little bit little bit and once strong feeding then wham -good luck


Intersting - the little sods here would not touch peanut butter at all.  Never tried icing but did try almonds - no joy from them either.  White chocolate buttons I suspect would get non-target bycatch and that would likely end up in an argument with the missus (kids fingers hahaha).  No, the go to trap bait for me now is either apple with skin or pear.  Maybe avo if I'm short - lesson being I think is feed the little ratty bastards on what they are expecting to find as food and you don't suffer the same level of bait caution.

----------


## Happy Jack

> Yes, Brodifacoum was used and aerially applied for the Brook Sanctuary. 
> As have most other of the offshore predator free islands.


It certainly was aerial dropped there. Not only did my wife work for them but I also knew the managers of the campground right next to the sanctuary at the time

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Intersting - the little sods here would not touch peanut butter at all.  Never tried icing but did try almonds - no joy from them either.  White chocolate buttons I suspect would get non-target bycatch and that would likely end up in an argument with the missus (kids fingers hahaha).  No, the go to trap bait for me now is either apple with skin or pear.  Maybe avo if I'm short - lesson being I think is feed the little ratty bastards on what they are expecting to find as food and you don't suffer the same level of bait caution.


They love grain and seeds, that's why flour works so well - visual + smell. One night driving back over Otira I saw at least 30 possums out on the road eating grain that had come off a truck that day. This was at a time when there weren't that many koons about and it was uncommon to see more than two for the whole trip. Flour + icing sugar + lure was always the pre-feed for cyanide lines, I think the flour did the luring and the cinnamon, eucalyptus, aniseed etc etc just made the possumer happy

----------


## Tahr

> So by-kill of deer is either 90+% or 5% ...


That’s obtuse. The 5 percent death rate is with repellent. The higher by kill rates are without repellent at max sow rate.

----------


## Finnwolf

> Intersting - the little sods here would not touch peanut butter at all.  Never tried icing but did try almonds - no joy from them either.  White chocolate buttons I suspect would get non-target bycatch and that would likely end up in an argument with the missus (kids fingers hahaha).  No, the go to trap bait for me now is either apple with skin or pear.  Maybe avo if I'm short - lesson being I think is feed the little ratty bastards on what they are expecting to find as food and you don't suffer the same level of bait caution.


M
Sultanas are my go-to bait, sometimes with a smear of peanut butter.

----------


## Moutere

> The markets for venison still exist for one example - however they have been severely constrained due to large areas where animals cannot be taken for consumption due to the risk of residual levels of poison detecable in the animal products.  Any shipment heading overseas needs to be at zero detectable, or the entire shipment is canned which couold run many tens of containers.  Financial suicide to risk it...  I know of a few outfits that could start up export tomorrow if not for the risk - this is the same as recently found with 1080 detectable residues in certain honey products.  
> 
> Poisoning is a solution, that is true but the answer I don't think is solely poisoning and solely 'uncontrolled' air dropping as the broadcast method.  Applying the bait by station, logging/documenting and either disposing or recovering of carcasses, and recovery of unused baits as well as funding a research regime for testing and establishing levels of residual poisons across the feral populations would go a long way towards allowing a commercial control mechanism to restart.  Against that - you have a lot of potential for spatial conflict on increasing numbers of people wanting to utilise a shrinking allocation for resource (this is the same problem with commercial/recreational fisheries in a nutshell).


My comparison to the wild venison market was that even with big pressure and big private enterprise the deer endured.
Possums and rats are no different and I would also challenge anecdotal evidence that possums ever declined significantly due to the fur market.

I do however agree that aerial poison is only a tool that one day needs to give way to other maintained control methods. I am genuinely heartened be the inroads being made in the Perth Valley for example.
I am not pro, nor against. Maybe indifferent to a necessary tool.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> My comparison to the wild venison market was that even with big pressure and big private enterprise the deer endured.
> Possums and rats are no different and I would also challenge anecdotal evidence that possums ever declined significantly due to the fur market.
> 
> I do however agree that aerial poison is only a tool that one day needs to give way to other maintained control methods. I am genuinely heartened be the inroads being made in the Perth Valley for example.
> I am not pro, nor against. Maybe indifferent to a necessary tool.


What do you believe was the maximum possum population total in NZ ?

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## No.3

Only needs to be 'controlled' sufficiently to allow native populations to flourish though, remembering that a level of browse is desirable to ensure regen and spread of certain species' seeds.  'Uncontrolled' populations of deer (or to put it the other way deer populations controlled by the available levels of food) are insanely damaging to bush and prevent a lot of flora replacement from growing through.  Possum, rat, cat, and mustelid have the potential to be more damaging on native bird as especially cats and mustelids don't have other options for food when birds and eggs run out...

Conversely 'uncontrolled control' leads to issues with bykill, species damage and non-tracked effects (invertebrates, amphibians, bats, aquatic) so there has to be an acceptable level of where we say that's it we've cracked it.

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## Moutere

> What do you believe was the maximum possum population total in NZ ?


Anecdotally?

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## Moa Hunter

> Anecdotally?


From your previous :'Possums and rats are no different and I would also challenge anecdotal evidence that possums ever declined significantly due to the fur market'.

We need a base number to work from

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## Moutere

> From your previous :'Possums and rats are no different and I would also challenge anecdotal evidence that possums ever declined significantly due to the fur market'.
> 
> We need a base number to work from


No, you need a number it seems.

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## No.3

Bit like the numbers of sheep quoted in NZ - a very well educated, scientifically generated wild arsed guess!

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## Moa Hunter

> No, you need a number it seems.


I wish to consider your previously stated challenge, on what numbers ( evidence ) is it based ?

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## Micky Duck

well allow me to wade on in here....
when thousands of possums were being shot,poisoned or whacked on the noggin with a 16oz claw hammer,the population was being lowered daily..... they would however have still been rooting like rabbits in the rooting season and repopulating country,HOWEVER.... there was less possum poontang to be doing the funky chicken than there would have been had the said shooting poisoning and noggin whacking been happening..so LOGIC WOULD SUGGEST the population was lowering by degrees


and I do not believe you need a degree   to conclude that all the shooting,poisoning and noggin whacking was helping lower the poulation

and again I do not believe you need a degree  to conclude that doing more shooting,poisoning and noggin whacking would still help to lower the population again....

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## Moutere

> Bit like the numbers of sheep quoted in NZ - a very well educated, scientifically generated wild arsed guess!


Bingo, gold star right there.

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## Happy Jack

The trust trying to eradicate Grey squirrels in the UK are making huge inroads with a bait that sterilises them from what I have read somewhere recently (wish I could remember where) and I have long advocated that is what we should be pushing for rather than poison.

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## Eat Meater

> The trust trying to eradicate Grey squirrels in the UK are making huge inroads with a bait that sterilises them from what I have read somewhere recently (wish I could remember where) and I have long advocated that is what we should be pushing for rather than poison.


This is good.  It bypasses the issue with GMO to ensure eg a possum/rat only produces male offspring. The issue there is if a rat gets on a ship it could be all over for the country they get to. 

Always identify your target beyond all doubt because you never miss and I will be missed

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