# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Firearms Registry Consultation Open

## NZShoota

https://www.police.govt.nz/advice-se...try?nondesktop

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## drunk_mexican

What's everybody's thoughts?

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## Cigar

Dumb idea that you if you buy ammunition you have to enter the info on all your firearms in the registry - it will result in an early flood of info and crash the whole system.

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## Doghead

Heaven help us - the amount of information required is detailed.

They expect everyone to update the registry themselves online - I can say "fuck that" - it will be quicker to fill in the forms and make the police update the registry - they then have the responsibilty for keying errors - let them waste their time at the kepboard.

Every temporary transfer of 30 days - well - they best hurry up the licence renewal process or licence holders will be needing to notify thousands of transfers as there licence is not renewed on time.  Do that via hardcopy.

The whole exercise looks to be an expensive exercise in time wasting.

Oh - that proposal is not easy reading.

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## gonetropo

its going to be a fustercluck, and will never be reliable.
and how is it going to work if you lend a rifle to a fellow FAL for a month, do we have to register it to them etc?
its all a load of political bollocks

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## muzza

I wonder what the outcome will be in no significant number of owners offer up the information - in others words , be like Canada and simply not comply?

The fact that macilwraith is involved in this does not fill me with confidence at all.

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## Bol Tackshin

It is what it is,  so I am going to try be as constructive as possible. 

The first statement they make - _" The inclusion of licence holders’ personal and licence details in the Firearms Registry is a necessary first step before the Registry can begin recording details of the arms items you hold. These need to be recorded against the licence holder along with endorsements held."_
This is incorrect. What they need is only your licence number. Your details are all linked in the police system anyway, and adding all your details makes your safety and privacy very vulnerable indeed. Anyone querying the firearms database needs to first access your FAL number via the Police computer system and then use your FAL number to see what firearms are registered. Does that make sense? Think of the missing name, 
 address and phone number as an additional line of defence.

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## Happy Jack

In the final box I asked how much compensation I would get and will that include free guards at my front gate when note I said when not if the register is hacked, other than that I tried to be as constructive as possible with all my I don't agree answers to every question.

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## gonetropo

so how do you enter non English characters if say you own a moisin nagant ?

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## Bol Tackshin

> so how do you enter non English characters if say you own a moisin nagant ?


Valid question, and worth adding to a submission. What about Nazi markings on firearms? That is a serious question.

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## Mooseman

It appears that there is no cost which is good, but then if we have to do the work then that's how it should be.

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## BSA

Everyone should do the hard copy (paper) option. Then any keyboard errors are on them. And it will slow the whole thing down to an absolute crawl.

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## Beavis

Hopefully it gets the ol yeetus deletus with a regime change

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## Micky Duck

> Hopefully it gets the ol yeetus deletus with a regime change


like another added tax on kiwisaver........ difference being FAL holders are a small minority by comparison....and big business isnt going to loose $$$$

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## small_caliber

I wonder what will happen when people with dyslexia fill in the incorrect data?

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## small_caliber

> Hopefully it gets the ol yeetus deletus with a regime change


Wouldn't guarantee that, it will come in next year and given all the expense is upfront it would be political suicide to can it.
Given that the period for a review is shorter than the deadline for all firearms to be registered my guess is that it will be here for 6 years plus at least.

Unless no one complies, and I can't see that happening.

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## outdoorlad

Looks like I have 4yrs and 11months to fill out the paperwork, I wonder how switch barrel firearms (blaser, etc) will be treated/registered?

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## Micky Duck

well that took a good hour to do.....

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## Cigar

> Looks like I have 4yrs and 11months to fill out the paperwork, I wonder how switch barrel firearms (blaser, etc) will be treated/registered?


4 years and 11 months - unless you do something like move house, or buy ammunition!

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## 308

> It is what it is,  so I am going to try be as constructive as possible. 
> 
> The first statement they make - _" The inclusion of licence holders personal and licence details in the Firearms Registry is a necessary first step before the Registry can begin recording details of the arms items you hold. These need to be recorded against the licence holder along with endorsements held."_
> This is incorrect. What they need is only your licence number. Your details are all linked in the police system anyway, and adding all your details makes your safety and privacy very vulnerable indeed. Anyone querying the firearms database needs to first access your FAL number via the Police computer system and then use your FAL number to see what firearms are registered. Does that make sense? Think of the missing name, 
>  address and phone number as an additional line of defence.


Good points
I will submit this too and the point made by someone else about cyrillic characters eg on a Mosin


As with everyone else, it is an absolute boondoggle but that is not what this thread is about

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## gmm

Imagine the fun we could have if we chose to complete the forms written in our choice of language.  I'm of Danish decent, might fill mine out using my original native language.  Might slow the system down somewhat. Dette er min skydevaben ansogning, translation
this is my firearms application.

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## Bol Tackshin

When filling out the submission form,  make sure you tick the box so that your details are not provided to anyone seeking information under the Official Information Act. I can see this happening and people being very unhappy about it after the fact.

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## GDMP

> Hopefully it gets the ol yeetus deletus with a regime change


It will probably end up being binned eventually,just like in Canada....after a bunch of money has been blown on it.

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## Makros

Don't agree with any of it but that aside.
I can see a gap in the process that when you do the initial submission of information or when changing address you must provide the capacity of your storage. No where is there a complimentary process for capturing an upgrade or addition to your storage capacity.
I also believe, despite reading the relevant legislation a few times, that the Arms Act is very vague in whether you need to inform the police when you change the security or add to your security arrangements in your current address.

While not related to the registry. I also have a substantial issue with the requirement to provide my primary care provider as a firearms licences holder. I consider this a significant breach of privacy. I also can see why they may want this information but firmly believe that it is counter productive in the intention. Any licence holder having a mental health, alcohol or drug issue is less likely to seek timely treatment if they are concerned that such seeking of treatment may impact their current and future ability to hold a firearms licence. I know these concerns align with similar concerns raised by the Privacy Commissioner which remain unresolved.

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## Danger Mouse

> I wonder what the outcome will be in no significant number of owners offer up the information - in others words , be like Canada and simply not comply?
> 
> The fact that macilwraith is involved in this does not fill me with confidence at all.


He's a manipulative arsehole

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## Happy Jack

What if you are not registered with any Dr's? I asked in mine what they are going to do to get the gangs to comply

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## Beavis

> Wouldn't guarantee that, it will come in next year and given all the expense is upfront it would be political suicide to can it.
> Given that the period for a review is shorter than the deadline for all firearms to be registered my guess is that it will be here for 6 years plus at least.
> 
> Unless no one complies, and I can't see that happening.


They waste money on stupid shit all the time. Aside from that, I think that it will be US paying for it rather than them anyway.

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## Jukes

I've referenced the previous leak in my submission: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/old-au...WHDBTH4JBPWCY/

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## Ranger 888

Reported in the news 2 days ago, that nobody will be taken to task for leaving the firearms owners private details (which were consequently stolen) in an insecure and abandoned police building. No surprises there. And if the new registry gets hacked as a result of incompetence...?

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## Masperjay

> I wonder what will happen when people with dyslexia fill in the incorrect data?


Nothing will change ! haha

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## Cyclops

> Reported in the news 2 days ago, that nobody will be taken to task for leaving the firearms owners private details (which were consequently stolen) in an insecure and abandoned police building. No surprises there. And if the new registry gets hacked as a result of incompetence...?


The registry will get hacked - not by incompetence - by deliberate illegal access. 

There are about 11-12,000 police staff, sworn and unsworn. 
Almost all are reliable trustworthy people. 
That leaves a few dodgy ones who can't be trusted. 
It will take only one dodgy untrustworthy person the breach the security of the registry. *It will happen.*

Consider the prosecutions for sworn and unsworn staff access to databases in an improper fashion.

*The registry will be the shopping list that gangs will be using.*

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## Makros

> The registry will get hacked - not by incompetence - by deliberate illegal access. 
> 
> There are about 11-12,000 police staff, sworn and unsworn. 
> Almost all are reliable trustworthy people. 
> That leaves a few dodgy ones who can't be trusted. 
> It will take only one dodgy untrustworthy person the breach the security of the registry. *It will happen.*
> 
> Consider the prosecutions for sworn and unsworn staff access to databases in an improper fashion.
> 
> *The registry will be the shopping list that gangs will be using.*


Unfortunately I agree, this system will be breached, eventually, most likely in a way that involved someone with authorised access and therefore security of the database from outside access will be irrelevant.

The blame will be put on the individual who did the illegal sharing of information when this does happen but it will be a failure of the controls of the database which assumes compliance within Police and didn't account for the human factor in security design.

The risk is all on the people that hold firearms licences and not on Police at this point as we will be the ones put in danger from theft and potential assault from people trying to access firearms they know we possess.

I am not comforted by the platitudes provided about the security of the system. I want to see external judicial control on the access of the information which requires a request to access the information on a case by case basis rather than having uncontrolled access made by "authorised people".
At the very least if anyone accesses the information of anything in this registry I want internal accountability on a process on which this access is justified.

Having trained some people on government systems I know the people factor is the weakest link in the strongest designed systems. However the people typically have little information security awareness, training or knowledge and certainly by in large the technological competency of most users is abysmal.

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## Bol Tackshin

The security of the database is definitely a concern. There was the recent Auckland police data theft, but that is chicken feed in term of risk compared to a breach of the incoming database. 

The first breach we should look at is the buy-back one - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...uyback-website Yes, it was disappointing to the police, but their response was even more disappointing to anyone who takes their privacy and security that stems from that seriously!

If you are making a submission, think about this: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...o-gangs-jailed

Yes, they jailed him, but the information cannot be reeled back in once it has been given out. 

The police association's own website (see https://www.policeassn.org.nz/news/c...-seeps-into-nz ) has this to say: _"NOCG crime manager Detective Inspector Paul Newman says that while theres little evidence of systemic corruption within New Zealand, it is increasingly at risk of being exploited by more sophisticated criminal groups.

Organised crime at this level doesnt exist without corruption, he says.

Last year, police exposed baggage handlers at Auckland Airport who were being used by gangs to ensure that drugs brought in via aircraft avoided the normal security screening process. One of the baggage handlers had $250,000 stuffed into the roof cavity of his new home."_

It is cases like this: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-...UAPVR5XTOUXZU/ that concern me - where police have access to something that has value to gangs, some, likely a very small minority, will cave and compromise the integrity of the system. 

It only has to happen once. 

There was a story about a police recruit with gang connections among their immediate family. I can't find a link to it though. Anyone help out here?


We haven't even touched on the other agencies that will have access to the database. If you have any examples of how people have been compromised, please post them. The stronger the message, the better for us.

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## Ranger 888

> The security of the database is definitely a concern. There was the recent Auckland police data theft, but that is chicken feed in term of risk compared to a breach of the incoming database. 
> 
> The first breach we should look at is the buy-back one - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...uyback-website Yes, it was disappointing to the police, but their response was even more disappointing to anyone who takes their privacy and security that stems from that seriously!
> 
> If you are making a submission, think about this: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...o-gangs-jailed
> 
> Yes, they jailed him, but the information cannot be reeled back in once it has been given out. 
> 
> The police association's own website (see https://www.policeassn.org.nz/news/c...-seeps-into-nz ) has this to say: _"NOCG crime manager Detective Inspector Paul Newman says that while there’s little evidence of systemic corruption within New Zealand, it is increasingly at risk of being exploited by more sophisticated criminal groups.
> ...


Google it; it's out there.

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## Bol Tackshin

@Ranger 888 - I spent a fair bit of time and my entire lunch break  on Google today. Hence why I asked for help.

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## Bol Tackshin

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/...n-police-force 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...l-mob-gangster

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckla...6AEYGHRDDXNWY/

All examples of the weakest link in the chain - those very people entrusted to keep shit safe and secure.

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## No.3

So where do we find the definition of what is a major part?  No barrels have serial numbers these days, so if you have a spare tube or two that are a generic part what gives with those?  Where does one find the specifics on entering info - can't see anything about the 'how' of doing it apart from the comments above that you can enter it online or via hardcopy.  It would seem that unless you have one or two thing it's going to be hugely easier for the licence holder to document on paper and take in a ream or two and plonk down on the arms officer's desk...  It is going to be interesting to see how Police handle this as I cannot see them having enough resources to deal with it effectively given the current fiasco with licence renewals.  Ammo being added to the registry is an interesting one as well, are we going to have to account for expenditure?  Manufacture of ammo (reloading)?  As others have stated, firearms already marked with a legal number from the manufacturer that isn't in english or arabic characters - what happens there and who pays to have the firearms re-marked lawfully?  No point remarking a few thousand firearms as A1.  I've seen recently firearms marked with cyrillic characters, turkish, jewish (yiddish), siamese, japanese, chinese, and a couple I have no idea what they were.  

The further down this rabbit hole we get, the less competent and appearing to be 'in touch' with the day to day practicalities, that the powers that be appear to get - I just get the feeling that they think everyone is a deer, bunny and duck hunter with 3 firearms in a rack in their bedroom cupboard.

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## Ingrid 51

> So where do we find the definition of what is a major part?  No barrels have serial numbers these days, so if you have a spare tube or two that are a generic part what gives with those?  Where does one find the specifics on entering info - can't see anything about the 'how' of doing it apart from the comments above that you can enter it online or via hardcopy.  It would seem that unless you have one or two thing it's going to be hugely easier for the licence holder to document on paper and take in a ream or two and plonk down on the arms officer's desk...  It is going to be interesting to see how Police handle this as I cannot see them having enough resources to deal with it effectively given the current fiasco with licence renewals.  Ammo being added to the registry is an interesting one as well, are we going to have to account for expenditure?  Manufacture of ammo (reloading)?  As others have stated, firearms already marked with a legal number from the manufacturer that isn't in english or arabic characters - what happens there and who pays to have the firearms re-marked lawfully?  No point remarking a few thousand firearms as A1.  I've seen recently firearms marked with cyrillic characters, turkish, jewish (yiddish), siamese, japanese, chinese, and a couple I have no idea what they were.  
> 
> The further down this rabbit hole we get, the less competent and appearing to be 'in touch' with the day to day practicalities, that the powers that be appear to get - I just get the feeling that they think everyone is a deer, bunny and duck hunter with 3 firearms in a rack in their bedroom cupboard.




I have been informed that Rotorua Police are advertising for a full time fal screener/interviewer/whatever, with a salary of about $70k. It was suggested I could apply, but Nah. A guy I know who had a similar position reckoned he spent his days interviewing/inspecting firearms related items, then half his evening entering the info onto their database.

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## Cigar

> So where do we find the definition of what is a major part?


Page 37 
major firearm parts [the action (frame, receiver or upper and lower receiver) of a firearm, the 
frame of a pistol, and a calibre conversion component or kit of a pistol

It was defined in one of the recent law changes, pretty sure it was the same definition.

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## No.3

Just read the job description - "experience with firearms may be an advantage but is not necessary".

Shows how much they value and believe in their rhetoric when they don't even think experience with firearms is a pre-requisite.  And they likely won't get many applicants at a starting rate of 62,670 (roughly $30/hour) when you are having to use your own vehicle...

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## vulcannz

First thing I spotted:




> Initially, and every three years, the systems design, implementation and service management complete the Police Certification and Accreditation process, which is directed from Government through the NZ Information Security Manual and the Protective Security Requirements. Accreditation  or formal approval to operate  is provided by the Police Director of Assurance on successfully passing the certification process.


3 years is a long time to renew C&A's. A typical IT system would be 2 years. A sensitive system like this should be done annually (i.e once a year).

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## vulcannz

Also you guys want to see something funny... use this tool: https://www.checktls.com/TestReceiver   . In the email target put police.govt.nz (this doesn't do anything bad, this is a free public tool to help validate email security).

You'll see a report generated that shows that the NZ Police email system uses self signed certificates. Why is this bad? Well it's kind of like making your own drivers license. The certificate is part of the encryption process for communications between email servers. When another system tries to send an email to NZ Police, if it requires strict TLS compliance (which is not uncommon) it will see the self signed certificate and decide to fall back to clear text (unencrypted). It also means an attacker could potentially spoof (fake) being a NZ Police emails server.

This also means it is likely email flowing out from NZ Police has the same issue.

tldr version- NZ Police have a poorly setup and potentially insecure email system. Currently, as in right now, as in the same time they want you to trust them to build a secure registry (which incidentally would like use this email system).

To put this in perspective, to fix this would require the installation of a certificate which would cost ~$11.25 on each server (there are two) and would take less than an hours work.

Also did you guys spot this:



> Police understands that concerns have been expressed about the privacy, security and safety risks associated with multiple agencies accessing the Firearms Registry.


I haven't seen anything about other agencies accessing the firearms register? I wonder who this is or why?

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## Rushy

I have just completed the on line submission.  I added comments and suggestions to every question.  In short, I disagreed with everything on the basis that the registry would provide no tangible benefit to Police or the wider society in New Zealand.  I suggested that Police should trust fit and proper firearms license holders, their clubs, ranges, executors, administrators and others with powers of attorney over their estates, to act appropriately and in accordance with the law.  And Police should redirect their efforts and their budget toward dispossessing gang members, their associates and other non firearms license holders of the firearms that are in their possession.

The underlying tone of my submission was to abandon the registry as it is unnecessarily bureaucratic and will be insecure, will compromise licensed firearms owners, their families and their legitimately held firearms and will ultimately fail and be abandoned.  

Regardless, I believe that the registry will go ahead and only time will enable Police to see that I am correct.

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## Bagheera

Interesting tool, Vulcan.

Waikato Firearms Office 89%


Another govt dept that has suffered severe attack 93%


A commercial system where everyone assumes you sell your data in exchange for free email 97% 


A system that prides itself on security (limited service but free) 100%

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## Cigar

> I have just completed the on line submission.  I added comments and suggestions to every question.  In short, I disagreed with everything on the basis that the registry would provide no tangible benefit to Police or the wider society in New Zealand.  I suggested that Police should trust fit and proper firearms license holders, their clubs, ranges, executors, administrators and others with powers of attorney over their estates, to act appropriately and in accordance with the law.  And Police should redirect their efforts and their budget toward dispossessing gang members, their associates and other non firearms license holders of the firearms that are in their possession.
> 
> The underlying tone of my submission was to abandon the registry as it is unnecessarily bureaucratic and will be insecure, will compromise licensed firearms owners, their families and their legitimately held firearms and will ultimately fail and be abandoned.  
> 
> Regardless, I believe that the registry will go ahead and only time will enable Police to see that I am correct.


The registry has to go ahead by law. The consultation has nothing to do with that aspect, as is explained on the webpage
The scope of the consultation includes:
the specified arms items and the details of those items to be recorded in the Firearms Registry.
the obligations of licence holders and those in possession of specified arms items to provide information to Police for inclusion in the Firearms Registry.
associated provisions that support these changes, including a final date by which licence holders must have registered all their specified arms items.
*Out of scope
The consultation does not cover establishment of the Registry*, access to the Registry by other Agencies, or offences related to the Registry, all of which are already set out in the Act.

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## Cigar

> I haven't seen anything about other agencies accessing the firearms register? I wonder who this is or why?


This has been around since before the first round of submissions on the new - at that stage proposed - laws several years ago.
If I recall correctly, they did drop one govt agency from the original list.

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## Beavis

> Also you guys want to see something funny... use this tool: https://www.checktls.com/TestReceiver   . In the email target put police.govt.nz (this doesn't do anything bad, this is a free public tool to help validate email security).
> 
> You'll see a report generated that shows that the NZ Police email system uses self signed certificates. Why is this bad? Well it's kind of like making your own drivers license. The certificate is part of the encryption process for communications between email servers. When another system tries to send an email to NZ Police, if it requires strict TLS compliance (which is not uncommon) it will see the self signed certificate and decide to fall back to clear text (unencrypted). It also means an attacker could potentially spoof (fake) being a NZ Police emails server.
> 
> This also means it is likely email flowing out from NZ Police has the same issue.
> 
> tldr version- NZ Police have a poorly setup and potentially insecure email system. Currently, as in right now, as in the same time they want you to trust them to build a secure registry (which incidentally would like use this email system).
> 
> To put this in perspective, to fix this would require the installation of a certificate which would cost ~$11.25 on each server (there are two) and would take less than an hours work.
> ...


Customs, MFAT and DoC will have access

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## outdoorlad

Why do DOC & Mfat need access to it?

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## Bol Tackshin

And customs... I don't see why customs needs to know about my firearms when I only own firearms purchased in NZ, and I don't import parts?

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## Cigar

I'm wondering why they want the magazine capacity of any fixed mag firearms in the registry.

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## Danger Mouse

> I'm wondering why they want the magazine capacity of any fixed mag firearms in the registry.


It's getting ready for the next lot of restrictions and confiscation

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## Bol Tackshin

It's an inventory.

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## Happy Jack

> It's an inventory.


Correction, its a shopping list

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## vulcannz

> The registry will get hacked - not by incompetence - by deliberate illegal access. 
> 
> There are about 11-12,000 police staff, sworn and unsworn. 
> Almost all are reliable trustworthy people. 
> That leaves a few dodgy ones who can't be trusted. 
> It will take only one dodgy untrustworthy person the breach the security of the registry. *It will happen.*
> 
> Consider the prosecutions for sworn and unsworn staff access to databases in an improper fashion.
> 
> *The registry will be the shopping list that gangs will be using.*


Don't forget to add in the DoC, MFAT and Customs staff.

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## Cigar

> It's getting ready for the next lot of restrictions and confiscation


That’s the only reason I’ve come up with too.

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## Ingrid 51

> I have just completed the on line submission.  I added comments and suggestions to every question.  In short, I disagreed with everything on the basis that the registry would provide no tangible benefit to Police or the wider society in New Zealand.  I suggested that Police should trust fit and proper firearms license holders, their clubs, ranges, executors, administrators and others with powers of attorney over their estates, to act appropriately and in accordance with the law.  And Police should redirect their efforts and their budget toward dispossessing gang members, their associates and other non firearms license holders of the firearms that are in their possession.
> 
> The underlying tone of my submission was to abandon the registry as it is unnecessarily bureaucratic and will be insecure, will compromise licensed firearms owners, their families and their legitimately held firearms and will ultimately fail and be abandoned.  
> 
> Regardless, I believe that the registry will go ahead and only time will enable Police to see that I am correct.



I too just completed the survey @Rushy, with similar concerns you mentioned. In the early 70s I was involved in checking fal details by doing home visits. Bloody waste of time as the register then was like a Swiss cheese. I honestly cannot see this proposal being successful.

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## muzza

I wonder if there might be some merit in  folk posting their responses to the individual sections ,so that others might have some guidance or assistance in making their own responses?

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## NZShoota

> I wonder if there might be some merit in  folk posting their responses to the individual sections ,so that others might have some guidance or assistance in making their own responses?


COLFO are currently working on a guide for submissions.

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## Ryan



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## chindit

Just done my consultation.
I just can't understand why ammunition is included. I go to the gun club and buy 100 rounds. No internet so all recorded on paper licence seen ect. Then the poor guy/girl that sold me the ammo has to record it on the register when they get home at 9pm (lets say ) My 100 rounds has gone, been used, up in gun smoke. Now old mr plod sees I have purchased 10000 rounds this year, but I have none in my possession. According to our records you purchased 25 rounds of 410 shot gun ammo`yet you do not own a 410. Well I borrowed a 410 and shot a round of skeet. Plod says you borrowed a gun but did not register that that gun was in your possession. Thats because the owner was stood right beside me using my 12 guage. the more you think about all possible scenarios you realize why a register will not work   .Just ammo alone probably accounts for thousands of transactions per day. Can this registry cope.

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## Marty Henry

Only 100 rounds in a day? You can't miss much

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## Bol Tackshin

I reckon that,  like in most things,  I'll be a late adopter. 
Just realised that anyone registering a bolt action Zastava M70 could get a knock on the door as  Zastava M70 is also an AK clone.  :O O:

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## GDMP

Recording ammo sales seems like an idea imported from overseas.....there was a time many years ago when,under federal law, all ammo sales at dealers in the US had to be recorded,but it was eventually dropped as it was a useless requirement and served no real purpose.It will be the same here no doubt,just give it time.

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## outlander

I find myself pondering more often lately, as to how many of us will merely get rid of our guns. With the onset of age and more limitations imposed on shooters, will the powers that be, accomplish their disarming tactics and or what the percentage of it will be. There are some of us who are approaching the daunting renewal process. Perhaps, as is in my case, my firearms are not monetary worth much and will voluntarily be 'handed in'. Anyone had similar thoughts..?

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## Rushy

> Anyone had similar thoughts..?


No! And nor should you.

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## chindit

> Only 100 rounds in a day? You can't miss much


Wish it could be more, want to buy a kidney. Yes I do miss a lot. :Thumbsup:

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## Finnwolf

> I find myself pondering more often lately, as to how many of us will merely get rid of our guns. With the onset of age and more limitations imposed on shooters, will the powers that be, accomplish their disarming tactics and or what the percentage of it will be. There are some of us who are approaching the daunting renewal process. Perhaps, as is in my case, my firearms are not monetary worth much and will voluntarily be 'handed in'. Anyone had similar thoughts..?


Nope.
Fight it all I reckon, make ‘them’ think it’s a bad idea.

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## Ingrid 51

> I'm wondering why they want the magazine capacity of any fixed mag firearms in the registry.


Exactly my feelings too @Cigar. If for example I give details on a  Swedish Husqvarna m38B, then anyone in authority should know they are 6.5x55 cal with a blind 5 shot mag. Without going back through my submission, I recall the proposal requiring carving or other dings on woodwork ffs. Utter b.s.

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## Scott Cowan

Unfortunately you now need a dealers license to lend a fire arm out. its on the police web site and I was also told that by our Hawkesbay arms officer.

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## 308

> Unfortunately you now need a dealers license to lend a fire arm out. its on the police web site and I was also told that by our Hawkesbay arms officer.


Thanks for adding that, I had no idea

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## no1_49er

> voluntarily be 'handed in'. Anyone had similar thoughts..?


Absolutely NOT.
Handed in. To what purpose. So that po po can trash them? Or maybe to add to their own collection/s?
If your thought really is to "hand them in", I'd gratefully take them from you.

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## Mohawk .308

> I find myself pondering more often lately, as to how many of us will merely get rid of our guns. With the onset of age and more limitations imposed on shooters, will the powers that be, accomplish their disarming tactics and or what the percentage of it will be. There are some of us who are approaching the daunting renewal process. Perhaps, as is in my case, my firearms are not monetary worth much and will voluntarily be 'handed in'. Anyone had similar thoughts..?


WTF ? Not a chance mate.

----------


## GDMP

> I find myself pondering more often lately, as to how many of us will merely get rid of our guns. With the onset of age and more limitations imposed on shooters, will the powers that be, accomplish their disarming tactics and or what the percentage of it will be. There are some of us who are approaching the daunting renewal process. Perhaps, as is in my case, my firearms are not monetary worth much and will voluntarily be 'handed in'. Anyone had similar thoughts..?


No doubt thats the whole idea...make everything so difficult that many will just give up.I can think of no other reason for all the new restrictions they are imposing on legitimate firearms usage.

----------


## Marty Henry

> Recording ammo sales seems like an idea imported from overseas.....there was a time many years ago when,under federal law, all ammo sales at dealers in the US had to be recorded,but it was eventually dropped as it was a useless requirement and served no real purpose.It will be the same here no doubt,just give it time.


Purchasing ammunition is a trigger for you having to enter your firearms into the registry as it stands, otherwise you could drag it out till August 2028.
At the ruahine auction there have been large boxes of "significant firearms parts" sold, bolts receivers floorplates etc. These according to the proposal would also need to be recorded in the registry.
If it does come to pass that this is what's mandated I expect a lot of "glory boxes" will either go grey or if registered will be done using written records (as allowed in the proposals) that the police have to enter themselves, decipher poor handwriting and take ownership of transcription errors.
Compliance and civil disobedience in one action.

----------


## outlander

> Absolutely NOT.
> Handed in. To what purpose. So that po po can trash them? Or maybe to add to their own collection/s?
> If your thought really is to "hand them in", I'd gratefully take them from you.


What on earth would you ever do with a 25-303..!?

----------


## Cigar

> Unfortunately you now need a dealers license to lend a fire arm out. its on the police web site and I was also told that by our Hawkesbay arms officer.


Where on the police website?
There is nothing in the laws about this, and something being on the police website doesn't make it law.

----------


## Danger Mouse

> I find myself pondering more often lately, as to how many of us will merely get rid of our guns. With the onset of age and more limitations imposed on shooters, will the powers that be, accomplish their disarming tactics and or what the percentage of it will be. There are some of us who are approaching the daunting renewal process. Perhaps, as is in my case, my firearms are not monetary worth much and will voluntarily be 'handed in'. Anyone had similar thoughts..?


That's the desired outcome from police

----------


## Cigar

> Unfortunately you now need a dealers license to lend a fire arm out. its on the police web site and I was also told that by our Hawkesbay arms officer.


I found the bit on the police website - it only applies to those in the *business* of hiring, lending or otherwise supplying arms items.

----------


## Cyclops

From the Police Consultation document

_4.2 Information on transactions and events that must be recorded in the registry
Proposals for new regulations under the Arms Act 1983 31 August 2022
22
From 24 June 2023, section 95 of the Act provides that details of the following events in relation to
any firearm or other item regulated by or under the Act must be provided to Police by every holder
of a firearms licence or a dealers licence for inclusion in the registry:
a. any sale or supply, excluding a temporary transfer
b. any purchase or receipt, excluding a temporary transfer
c. any importation
d. any exportation
e. any manufacture
f. any theft, loss or destruction.
A temporary transfer is a transfer of possession of a firearm (not being a pistol, restricted weapon,
prohibited magazine or prohibited firearm) of less than 30 day_

Does this clarify the confusion around lending a rifle?

I've recently lent a rifle to another shooter for his grandchildren to use. 
To comply with the temporary transfer rules I will have to see him every 28 days, receive the rifle back and lend it to him again.

----------


## mikee

> From the Police Consultation document
> 
> _4.2 Information on transactions and events that must be recorded in the registry
> Proposals for new regulations under the Arms Act 1983 31 August 2022
> 22
> From 24 June 2023, section 95 of the Act provides that details of the following events in relation to
> any firearm or other item regulated by or under the Act must be provided to Police by every holder
> of a firearms licence or a dealer’s licence for inclusion in the registry:
> a. any sale or supply, excluding a temporary transfer
> ...


Personally I would complete any paper official transfer forms every 28 days and have the lendee do the same just to play them at their game.

----------


## no1_49er

> What on earth would you ever do with a 25-303..!?


Just as I would do with a 25-06. Reload the bugger AND USE IT.

----------


## Eat Meater

> Dumb idea that you if you buy ammunition you have to enter the info on all your firearms in the registry - it will result in an early flood of info and crash the whole system.


I said something similar in my submission.  I also objected to having to notify when my GP changed. When the GP leaves? What if I'm not told and don't need the Dr?When i find out they left?  Same objection.  What if they leave and there are no GPs left in the area? Do i nominally change to one 100kms away who i never see? Will failure to do the box-tick mean i fail a good character test when i renew or get an infringement?
Similar issues with the vague 'contact details' which are separate from address. Does it mean if i change my email or mobile number or drop my landline that i have to update?

What about having to specify the capacity of your safe? Who decides what that is? The manufacturer? Will i then have to buy a new safe if I have 6 guns but a 5 gun safe,  even if i can cram in 6? Me? Who checks that i didn't say "10" when i only have a 5 gun safe?

So much detail that doesn't serve a practical purpose or is vaguely defined.

----------


## small_caliber

> Just done my consultation.
> I just can't understand why ammunition is included. I go to the gun club and buy 100 rounds. No internet so all recorded on paper licence seen ect. Then the poor guy/girl that sold me the ammo has to record it on the register when they get home at 9pm (lets say ) My 100 rounds has gone, been used, up in gun smoke. Now old mr plod sees I have purchased 10000 rounds this year, but I have none in my possession. According to our records you purchased 25 rounds of 410 shot gun ammo`yet you do not own a 410. Well I borrowed a 410 and shot a round of skeet. Plod says you borrowed a gun but did not register that that gun was in your possession. Thats because the owner was stood right beside me using my 12 guage. the more you think about all possible scenarios you realize why a register will not work   .Just ammo alone probably accounts for thousands of transactions per day. Can this registry cope.


Perhaps everyone should get  organised and log in to update their ammunition at a certain time every day to see if the system can cope.
It just records ammunition bought, not used so at the end of 3 years I could have 10,000 rounds against my name but not actually have any of it.





> I said something similar in my submission.  I also objected to having to notify when my GP changed. When the GP leaves? What if I'm not told and don't need the Dr?When i find out they left?  Same objection.  What if they leave and there are no GPs left in the area? Do i nominally change to one 100kms away who i never see? Will failure to do the box-tick mean i fail a good character test when i renew or get an infringement?
> Similar issues with the vague 'contact details' which are separate from address. Does it mean if i change my email or mobile number or drop my landline that i have to update?
> 
> What about having to specify the capacity of your safe? Who decides what that is? The manufacturer? Will i then have to buy a new safe if I have 6 guns but a 5 gun safe,  even if i can cram in 6? Me? Who checks that i didn't say "10" when i only have a 5 gun safe?
> 
> So much detail that doesn't serve a practical purpose or is vaguely defined.


What about when you move and no Dr's are taking on new patients?
My wife recently wanted to change her Dr as her previous Dr retired and she doesn't like the new Dr, so she thought she would transfer to a clinic that was closer to home, problem is no clinics are taking on new patients.

----------


## Ranger 888

Guys, the register (registry?) will go ahead. We may not be happy with it, but it is what it is. BUT we need to express our concerns (see Rushy's comments) about security issues to Police as we participate in the "consultation" process, and also individually make a submission to Nicole McKee. Remember, you have until 12 
October to respond. A good turnout of responses is essential, to show our concern and cement our credibility.

A couple of points: McIllwraith mentions the register will contain "ALL legally held firearms in NZ".....he's dreamin'!  A register will have no relevance or value to Police unless:

1. EVERY firearm in NZ is registered.
2. EVERY transaction is recorded promptly.
3. EVERY transaction is recorded fully and accurately.

The chances of 1. 2. and 3. occurring are....?  When Police realise this, and that may take 10 years, I suspect the register will go the way of the dodo.

I had a dream last night...I dreamed (God forbid this should happen!!) that every LFO submitted their firearms details (online or in hard copy) in the same week, then a lot of them submitted alterations or changes to the information a few weeks later, then a few weeks after that....I woke up in a cold sweat!  Thank goodness that would never happen!!

----------


## Sasquatch

Yeah nah.

Zero *accountability.* 

ZERO trust.

----------


## Ross Nolan

The ammunition component of the register comes, I suspect, from *P*olice *O*f *M*other *E*ngland *E*xtraction...

If you want a look into a future for NZ, check the UK deer hunting website Stalking Directory, especially the legal section. The police can set a limit on how much ammo you can hold, and it is a revocation of license deal if you are over.

I'd REALLY like it if people stopped bringing the sort of attitudes and behaviours that made them want to leave their country with them to this one.

----------


## Moa Hunter

I doubt that any notice will be taken of any submission opposing the register. I doubt it because the Govt. here is following the UN template for small arms control: https://www.un.org/disarmament/wp-co...-2012EV1.0.pdf

"Stopping diversion from civilians. An estimated 75 per cent of small arms are in civilian hands. This encompasses all kinds and categories of arms and owners: security guards' pistols, farmers' shotguns, hunting rifles, collectors' displays, retailers' stocks, gangsters' crime weapons, as well as the many millions of guns sitting in homes and cars around the world for no particular reason or in the general name of security.

Part of this huge private arsenal consists of illegal guns (ie in the hands of people not entitled to possess them) and part consists of legal or semi-legal (grey) guns. Due to lack of data we can only guess at the relative distribution between legal and illegal. We know that many illegal guns came originally from Government stockpiles. Others have come from private owners, either deliberately through trafficking or unintentionally through loss, theft or private transfers. Globally, the private civilian stockpile is less accountable, far less strictly guarded and three times as plentiful as its state counterpart -- all qualities that support easy diversion of weapons to the illegal sector.

The best way to reduce diversion from the civilian stockpile to the illegal market is to reduce the size of the civilian stockpile, slow the arming of the population, and strengthen regulation of civilian ownership. Reducing the number of owners is reducing the number of potential points of diversion. Strengthening controls makes it much harder for guns to migrate into the criminal market. For example, a regulatory framework without firearm registration enables an owner to sell the weapon to a private buyer easily, without having to consider whether the buyer is legally authorized to acquire it. On the other hand, a regime that includes firearms registration necessarily imposes a higher degree of responsibility. The gun is registered in the seller's name with the State; thus the seller cannot transfer the ownership unless the State confirms that the buyer is authorized to acquire the weapon. This measure, firearm registration, is perhaps the single most effective tool in stopping diversion of legal small arms from civilians.

The other provisions are also anti-diversion and anti-trafficking measures, by stopping people from acquiring large numbers of guns and ensuring that the purchase or disposal of a gun is not a decision to be taken lightly. National firearm laws should recognize small arms as a product manufactured for killing, and therefore a product requiring strict control."

----------


## Sasquatch

> I doubt that any notice will be taken of any submission opposing the register. I doubt it because the Govt. here is following the UN template for small arms control: https://www.un.org/disarmament/wp-co...-2012EV1.0.pdf
> 
> "Stopping diversion from civilians. An estimated 75 per cent of small arms are in civilian hands. This encompasses all kinds and categories of arms and owners: security guards' pistols, farmers' shotguns, hunting rifles, collectors' displays, retailers' stocks, gangsters' crime weapons, as well as the many millions of guns sitting in homes and cars around the world for no particular reason or in the general name of security.
> 
> Part of this huge private arsenal consists of illegal guns (ie in the hands of people not entitled to possess them) and part consists of legal or semi-legal (grey) guns. Due to lack of data we can only guess at the relative distribution between legal and illegal. We know that many illegal guns came originally from Government stockpiles. Others have come from private owners, either deliberately through trafficking or unintentionally through loss, theft or private transfers. Globally, the private civilian stockpile is less accountable, far less strictly guarded and three times as plentiful as its state counterpart -- all qualities that support easy diversion of weapons to the illegal sector.
> 
> The best way to reduce diversion from the civilian stockpile to the illegal market is to reduce the size of the civilian stockpile, *slow the arming of the population, and strengthen regulation of civilian ownership. Reducing the number of owners is reducing the number of potential points of diversion.* Strengthening controls makes it much harder for guns to migrate into the criminal market. For example, a regulatory framework without firearm registration enables an owner to sell the weapon to a private buyer easily, without having to consider whether the buyer is legally authorized to acquire it. On the other hand, a regime that includes firearms registration necessarily imposes a higher degree of responsibility. The gun is registered in the seller's name with the State; thus the seller cannot transfer the ownership unless the State confirms that the buyer is authorized to acquire the weapon. This measure, firearm registration, is perhaps the single most effective tool in stopping diversion of legal small arms from civilians.
> 
> The other provisions are also anti-diversion and anti-trafficking measures, by stopping people from acquiring large numbers of guns and ensuring that the purchase or disposal of a gun is not a decision to be taken lightly. National firearm laws should recognize small arms as a product manufactured for killing, and therefore a product requiring strict control."


If you look at what countries have 'signed' up to this ^^^ Under New Zealand, the two agencies are NZ POLICE & Ministry of Foreign Affairs!

And people _still_ can't connect the dots...

----------


## Cigar

> I doubt that any notice will be taken of any submission opposing the register.


Absolutely correct, because this submission process has *nothing to do with the register going ahead or not*. The register is already set in law so the police have to go ahead with it no matter what. 

From the police webpage...
Out of scope
*The consultation does not cover establishment of the Registry*, access to the Registry by other Agencies, or offences related to the Registry, all of which are *already set out in the Act*.

----------


## Ranger 888

> I doubt that any notice will be taken of any submission opposing the register. I doubt it because the Govt. here is following the UN template for small arms control: https://www.un.org/disarmament/wp-co...-2012EV1.0.pdf
> 
> "Stopping diversion from civilians. An estimated 75 per cent of small arms are in civilian hands. This encompasses all kinds and categories of arms and owners: security guards' pistols, farmers' shotguns, hunting rifles, collectors' displays, retailers' stocks, gangsters' crime weapons, as well as the many millions of guns sitting in homes and cars around the world for no particular reason or in the general name of security.
> 
> Part of this huge private arsenal consists of illegal guns (ie in the hands of people not entitled to possess them) and part consists of legal or semi-legal (grey) guns. Due to lack of data we can only guess at the relative distribution between legal and illegal. We know that many illegal guns came originally from Government stockpiles. Others have come from private owners, either deliberately through trafficking or unintentionally through loss, theft or private transfers. Globally, the private civilian stockpile is less accountable, far less strictly guarded and three times as plentiful as its state counterpart -- all qualities that support easy diversion of weapons to the illegal sector.
> 
> The best way to reduce diversion from the civilian stockpile to the illegal market is to reduce the size of the civilian stockpile, slow the arming of the population, and strengthen regulation of civilian ownership. Reducing the number of owners is reducing the number of potential points of diversion. Strengthening controls makes it much harder for guns to migrate into the criminal market. For example, a regulatory framework without firearm registration enables an owner to sell the weapon to a private buyer easily, without having to consider whether the buyer is legally authorized to acquire it. On the other hand, a regime that includes firearms registration necessarily imposes a higher degree of responsibility. The gun is registered in the seller's name with the State; thus the seller cannot transfer the ownership unless the State confirms that the buyer is authorized to acquire the weapon. This measure, firearm registration, is perhaps the single most effective tool in stopping diversion of legal small arms from civilians.
> 
> The other provisions are also anti-diversion and anti-trafficking measures, by stopping people from acquiring large numbers of guns and ensuring that the purchase or disposal of a gun is not a decision to be taken lightly. National firearm laws should recognize small arms as a product manufactured for killing, and therefore a product requiring strict control."


The key sentence here is in paragraph 3: "Reducing the number of owners"....I recall being told by a Police Arms Officer in the late 1980s that there are "far too many firearms out there, and we will do whatever we can to reduce that number". Fair warning, I would have thought.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> The key sentence here is in paragraph 3: "Reducing the number of owners"....I recall being told by a Police Arms Officer in the late 1980s that there are "far too many firearms out there, and we will do whatever we can to reduce that number". Fair warning, I would have thought.


Agreed, perhaps the best counter measure is to promote hunting as an ideal activity for young men with the mental health / youth suicide prevention groups. Getting out in the bush, cooking around a campfire, bringing wild food home and the sense of purpose and success this brings. We need to recruit more hunters and not fight the register - leave that to the ballot box

----------


## Sasquatch

> The key sentence here is in paragraph 3: "Reducing the number of owners"....I recall being told by a Police Arms Officer in the late 1980s that there are "far too many firearms out there, and we will do whatever we can to reduce that number". Fair warning, I would have thought.


Oh yeah and look who's gonna be leading the *charge.*

_“It’s an important opportunity to set out New Zealand’s continued commitment to the multilateral system and international rules based order (AKA The UN & WEF...) ... international cooperation is more important than ever.”_

----------


## Ftx325

talking about security , I see that the theft of the records from the old police station in Akl , the one with all the firearms owners details etc , is not being investigated by the police or ipcc(?) as to how it happened the docs were left in the station etc .... :Wtfsmilie: 

Obviously extremely concerned with security .... 

The register IS going to be a shopping list , no doubt , and going by the above do you really think the cops give a rats backside ??

----------


## Rusky

The only "pros" is that if someone stole your firearms and are registered then your insurance company has the evidence and details required for your insurance claim.

I know of one incident where registered firearms were stolen in Northland. A suspicious vehicle was stopped on the same day in North Shore, and firearms discovered. The firearm owner was contacted to say they were been held by the police and later returned.

----------


## Eat Meater

> Perhaps everyone should get  organised and log in to update their ammunition at a certain time every day to see if the system can cope.
> It just records ammunition bought, not used so at the end of 3 years I could have 10,000 rounds against my name but not actually have any of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about when you move and no Dr's are taking on new patients?
> My wife recently wanted to change her Dr as her previous Dr retired and she doesn't like the new Dr, so she thought she would transfer to a clinic that was closer to home, problem is no clinics are taking on new patients.


Exactly my point. They need to see the fishhooks so they can a. fix them or b. scrap them so the register is actually manageable  
My advice is submit with practical suggestions or real flaws. From experience,  out of scope polemics and nit picking are not taken up.  Practical suggestions or thoughtful critiques get a second look. Be the second

Sent from my SM-J250G using Tapatalk

----------


## Marty Henry

Regarding the GP aspect, if I were a doctor I would be extremely concerned. Basically in the license application and subsequently police are requiring you to conduct a psychology assessment (something you are not trained in) of an individual you may only see once a year and then for only 10 minutes.
They then rely on this assessment as a major part of their grant or deny screening.
If someone subsequently goes off the rails will you be liable.
The issue with rural. GPs us extremely valid. I haven't seen the same Dr in 4 years they're all locums before covid 2 of them were tourists paying for their holiday this way.
You may as well ask the postie for all the value it has.

----------


## Bol Tackshin

> The only "pros" is that if someone stole your firearms and are registered then your insurance company has the evidence and details required for your insurance claim.
> 
> I know of one incident where registered firearms were stolen in Northland. A suspicious vehicle was stopped on the same day in North Shore, and firearms discovered. The firearm owner was contacted to say they were been held by the police and later returned.


Agree,  but if my firearms are stolen,  police will have make, model, serial number and photos the same day. I'm. Happy to provide the info - when they need it.

----------


## GDMP

> The key sentence here is in paragraph 3: "Reducing the number of owners"....I recall being told by a Police Arms Officer in the late 1980s that there are "far too many firearms out there, and we will do whatever we can to reduce that number". Fair warning, I would have thought.


Odd comment.....it was never their job to try and reduce numbers of legally held firearms or legal owners,rather to administer the act impartially.Over the years I have come across Police who were both anti firearms (well,our firearms anyway,not their's) and those who were quite the opposite and were somewhat helpful towards legal owners.

----------


## Ranger 888

> Odd comment.....it was never their job to try and reduce numbers of legally held firearms or legal owners,rather to administer the act impartially.Over the years I have come across Police who were both anti firearms (well,our firearms anyway,not their's) and those who were quite the opposite and were somewhat helpful towards legal owners.


GDMP..I think he was implying that if owners of legally held firearms act NAUGHTILY, they would lose their firearms.

----------


## Rusky

> Agree,  but if my firearms are stolen,  police will have make, model, serial number and photos the same day. I'm. Happy to provide the info - when they need it.


Some people aren't as organized as you.  In fact, the above stolen firearms that were mentioned were reported to police in Whangarei straight away. The paperwork hadn't even been completed before the call from North Shore Police had located them due to the fact they were registered.

----------


## Chilli_Dog

Is there anything in the legislation about  re stamping numbers? For instance a firearm made from several different SMLE parts which all had different numbers... which have been re marked to make a set

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Is there anything in the legislation about  re stamping numbers? For instance a firearm made from several different SMLE parts which all had different numbers... which have been re marked to make a set


My post 87 in this thread has a link to the UN guidelines. Serial no's and there absence / re-stamping is discussed. The number on the receiver is the reference number according the link

----------


## Bol Tackshin

> Some people aren't as organized as you.  In fact, the above stolen firearms that were mentioned were reported to police in Whangarei straight away. The paperwork hadn't even been completed before the call from North Shore Police had located them due to the fact they were registered.


I am far from the most organised bloke on the block... it just takes a few minutes to take a photo of your firearms with your phone, including close-ups of any serial numbers. That way, it just sits on your phone, ready when you need them, or you can download it to an encrypted thumb drive if you don't want the pics available on your phone. You can also email them to yourself. Or, just email yourself the details, so that you have a record. Not difficult, and worth gold when you need it.

----------


## No.3

HAHAHA and down the rabbit hole we go - I have one action body with four serials on it.  In the old times pre and WW1 era the master component was the barrel as the most expensive, time consuming and difficult to make as well as historically the main component in the muzzle loading era.  The barrel got the 'legal' serial number on it, and any time a barrel was fitted with a second hand action body, bolt and funiture as a depot-level repair the action body etc were remarked to match the barrel.  This presents a problem nowadays, when the action (or receiver) is considered the master part and a lot of barrels aren't serialled at all.  No real space to remark the action body after that many numbers so no idea how that's going to work with the majic interegistry.

----------


## Marty Henry

Put them all in, plus the viewers marks broad arrows, cyphers etc let them see how the system copes

----------


## Andygr

> Agreed, perhaps the best counter measure is to promote hunting as an ideal activity for young men with the mental health / youth suicide prevention groups. Getting out in the bush, cooking around a campfire, bringing wild food home and the sense of purpose and success this brings. We need to recruit more hunters and not fight the register - leave that to the ballot box


I agree. Been watching this guy's efforts for a while. Put someone like him together with Mike King and you might get some interesting results.

https://www.facebook.com/NickGoldsmith01

----------


## small_caliber

The law required the police to build a "Firearm" registry.

To me this is the serial number of the firearm nothing more.

They already have my details, my f/l number, the details of my safe, and everything else that is covered when they do a firearms license application or renewal.

I don't see in the law where all this other detail is required to be collected and stored by the police.

In my opinion the firearm registry should be a separate database with the firearms details in it and no personal details, just an identifier so the f/l holders details can be accessed through another database. This would give some security.

When it comes to caliber, marks on stocks etc, does this mean you have to update the details everytime you change a barrel or put another mark on your stock, have it refinished or fit another stock.

To me what the police are proposing seems to be complicated, full of irrelevant detail, and a big overreach on their part.

----------


## vulcannz

> To me what the police are proposing seems to be complicated, full of irrelevant detail, and a big overreach on their part.


Totally agree with this, they are adding undue complexity - and probably cost - to the system. It could open them up to legal action later.

----------


## No.3

Wonder how much of this is the software company looking to generate more 'fries with that' on the building and maintenance of the database software.  The bigger and more convoluted and unweildy the thing, the more maintenance it will need.  And ultimately the less accurate and useful...

----------


## No.3

> The law required the police to build a "Firearm" registry.
> 
> To me this is the serial number of the firearm nothing more.
> 
> They already have my details, my f/l number, the details of my safe, and everything else that is covered when they do a firearms license application or renewal.
> 
> I don't see in the law where all this other detail is required to be collected and stored by the police.
> 
> In my opinion the firearm registry should be a separate database with the firearms details in it and no personal details, just an identifier so the f/l holders details can be accessed through another database. This would give some security.
> ...


Been thinking this same thought - separate all details that could identify someone out and align the master record as the F/L number.  Against that - the database probably isn't useful then for the 'other agencies' that I have no idea what the use of a registry for them is to be fair.  Customs looking at imports and exports - if it's an import it's not yet 'in possession' so not yet on someone's ticket and needing to be entered into the registry so they have no reason to access the database that I can see.  All the necessary paperwork will still need to be completed for import checks, so whats the point of that as a access requirement?

----------


## Cigar

This is what the law says *must* be in the registry, anything else it can be argued is not required by law so shouldn't be included:
94 Content of registry
(1) The following particulars must be recorded in the registry:
(a) the number and date of expiry of every type of licence held by a person under this Act:
(b) every licence holder’s full name, date of birth, and address:
(c) every endorsement on a licence:
(d) every condition on a licence or an endorsement that is additional to conditions imposed by this Act or regulations made under section 74:
(e) the particulars of the make, model, and identifying markings of every firearm, restricted weapon, and prohibited magazine possessed by a licence holder, and of the location of the firearm, restricted weapon, and prohibited magazine, if the particulars are held by the Police:
(f) every particular that regulations made under section 74 require to be recorded in the registry.
(2) The registry may include—
(a) photographs provided under section 34A; and
(b) any other information that the Commissioner considers necessary or desirable—
(i) to ensure that the registry is complete and accurate; or
(ii) for the administration of this Act and regulations made under it; and
(c) any other photographs that the Commissioner considers necessary or desirable.

----------


## Rushy

> This is what the law says *must* be in the registry, anything else it can be argued is not required by law so shouldn't be included:
> 94 Content of registry
> (1) The following particulars must be recorded in the registry:
> (a) the number and date of expiry of every type of licence held by a person under this Act:
> (b) every licence holder’s full name, date of birth, and address:
> (c) every endorsement on a licence:
> (d) every condition on a licence or an endorsement that is additional to conditions imposed by this Act or regulations made under section 74:
> (e) the particulars of the make, model, and identifying markings of every firearm, restricted weapon, and prohibited magazine possessed by a licence holder, and of the location of the firearm, restricted weapon, and prohibited magazine, if the particulars are held by the Police:
> (f) every particular that regulations made under section 74 require to be recorded in the registry.
> ...


Unfortunately 2b means anything they want

----------


## Danger Mouse

> Unfortunately 2b means anything they want


I'd like to see how 2b stacks up with the privacy act

----------


## Bol Tackshin

> Been thinking this same thought - separate all details that could identify someone out and align the master record as the F/L number.  Against that - the database probably isn't useful then for the 'other agencies' that I have no idea what the use of a registry for them is to be fair.  Customs looking at imports and exports - if it's an import it's not yet 'in possession' so not yet on someone's ticket and needing to be entered into the registry so they have no reason to access the database that I can see.  All the necessary paperwork will still need to be completed for import checks, so whats the point of that as a access requirement?


It will be useful enough if they are presented with a FAL.  It is an official photographic ID and positively identifies the person about whose firearms they are making enquiries.

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## Chilli_Dog

Here is another one.... 
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime...ools-customers

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## No.3

> It will be useful enough if they are presented with a FAL.  It is an official photographic ID and positively identifies the person about whose firearms they are making enquiries.


In a lot of places F/L isn't considered an acceptable form of photographic evidence - I suspect because it's issued by Police and not by a directly-controlled Govt department.  Weirdly enough, a NZDF ID is better than the F/L.  The 'accepted' forms of ID are passport, driver's licence, the offical over 18 ID card and stupidly enough as it's not photographic the good old birth cert.  My wife argues the marraige license as well, as she's still running into the old name change deal (I suggested she could change it back if she wasn't happy - she told me where to stick it which I found odd considering the cause of the issue).

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## No.3

And another one is the Police taking photo's of young maori for whatever reason I'm not sure.  Not allowed under privacy rules, you should have heard that fool Cahill.  He's completely convinced Police cannot function without cameras and photo's of everyone - I found his argument a little bizarre to be honest.  It's found to be against the law to take and retain photo's of random young people and Cahill wants the report and all the complaints withdrawn and Police to continue taking happy snaps despite it being against the law.  I think he believes that because it's Police doing it - it makes it OK for them to break the law because they are trying to prevent others from breaking laws and they want to solve crimes?  Weird argument TBH fellow.

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## vulcannz

I found the targeting of specific ethnic groups (Maori) pretty disgusting - I thought we'd gotten past that sort of shit?

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## Eat Meater

> I found the targeting of specific ethnic groups (Maori) pretty disgusting - I thought we'd gotten past that sort of shit?


Nah mate.  If Chris Hipkins showed up at Cabinet without his officials having talked to Maori specifically, Willy Jackson and Mahuta would tell him to go away and come back when he had. 

Identify your target beyond doubt,  because you never miss and I'll be missed

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## no1_49er

Not only is Cahill an Oxygen thief, he's one of life's germs.

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## Rushy

> Not only is Cahill an Oxygen thief, he's one of life's germs.


Oh come on say what you really mean, the arsehole has a face that screams “punch the fuck out of me” and I would love the opportunity to oblige.  At some stage in the news article / interview he said words to the effect that “Police can’t function correctly without using these tools (cameras)”.  Well suck it up buttercup, I can’t function correctly in IPSC 3 gun without my AR15 and Typhoon F12 and even though I was not in breach of any law when using them I had to stop the use of them and give them up.  Fucking dweeb.

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## Chilli_Dog

> And another one is the Police taking photo's of young maori for whatever reason I'm not sure.  Not allowed under privacy rules, you should have heard that fool Cahill.  He's completely convinced Police cannot function without cameras and photo's of everyone - I found his argument a little bizarre to be honest.  It's found to be against the law to take and retain photo's of random young people and Cahill wants the report and all the complaints withdrawn and Police to continue taking happy snaps despite it being against the law.  I think he believes that because it's Police doing it - it makes it OK for them to break the law because they are trying to prevent others from breaking laws and they want to solve crimes?  Weird argument TBH fellow.


I suspect there is more to this than we have been told about, there are probably some reasonably  implications for the facial recognition 'upgrades' that they were looking at a while back. The one that was an extension of an old program so didn't need any input from the human rights peoples

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## small_caliber

> This is what the law says *must* be in the registry, anything else it can be argued is not required by law so shouldn't be included:
> 94 Content of registry
> (1) The following particulars must be recorded in the registry:
> (a) the number and date of expiry of every type of licence held by a person under this Act:
> (b) every licence holders full name, date of birth, and address:
> (c) every endorsement on a licence:
> (d) every condition on a licence or an endorsement that is additional to conditions imposed by this Act or regulations made under section 74:
> (e) the particulars of the make, model, and identifying markings of every firearm, restricted weapon, and prohibited magazine possessed by a licence holder, and of the location of the firearm, restricted weapon, and prohibited magazine, if the particulars are held by the Police:
> (f) every particular that regulations made under section 74 require to be recorded in the registry.
> ...


The Police already have 1a  through 1d
So 1e is the serial number of the firearm, any other details are irrelevant

ie my rifle may be 6mm rem this week, and next week its a 6.5x55, the following week it might be a 243W, the following week it maybe a 7/08
It may have two marks on the stock this month and none next month because I changed the stock or had it refinished

The more detail they include in the more errors there will be.

There is nothing in the law that says the registry has to be a single database, it would be better as two databases, linked by an identifier ie firearms license number.

This would mean anyone targeting the registry would have to hack two databases to get enough details to make the information worthwhile.

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## vulcannz

When do they have to have it running by?

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## muzza

COLFO are conspicuous by their absence with advice , I note....

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## Finnwolf

> COLFO are conspicuous by their absence with advice , I note....


Good point!

BTW There’s an article in today’s Otago Daily Times regarding wife/spouse who is referee for her husband/partner (who is applying for a new/renewal of their FAL) being present while the wife/spouse is being interviewed.

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## Maca49

> Heaven help us - the amount of information required is detailed.
> 
> They expect everyone to update the registry themselves online - I can say "fuck that" - it will be quicker to fill in the forms and make the police update the registry - they then have the responsibilty for keying errors - let them waste their time at the kepboard.
> 
> Every temporary transfer of 30 days - well - they best hurry up the licence renewal process or licence holders will be needing to notify thousands of transfers as there licence is not renewed on time.  Do that via hardcopy.
> 
> The whole exercise looks to be an expensive exercise in time wasting.
> 
> Oh - that proposal is not easy reading.


I like your thinking, support them, like theyve supported us!

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## Marty Henry

I think colfo may be employing the keep your mouth shut and appear an idiot rather than open it and remove all doubt principle. I see they will have a statement guide and legal opinion by the 22nd. I'll reserve judgement till then

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## vulcannz

So the registry legally requires people to enter information kicking off 24 June 2023.... anyone else here with experience with government IT projects think it'll be up and publicly running by then?

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## Happy Jack

> COLFO are conspicuous by their absence with advice , I note....


Apparantly they are putting out a guide to filling in the survey on the 22-9 once their lawyers have vetted it. Seen it on their Farcebook page. Also N McKee was at Wellington long distance shoot with Police minister at the weekend both competing.

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## Woody

Did you notice that every time you buy or dispose of a firearm you have to relist again all those you have previously listed?
 Nearly all of it seems incongruous and repetative. Very onerous for clubs too. I've completed the 40 pages and two hours on I felt disbelief that this extent of attempted change could occur in NZ. It's improperly seeking a lot more than just a register IMO.

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## gonetropo

one word to describe it all FUSTERCLUCK

they couldnt even get b or c right in rego, how do they expect this to work?

one word to describe how this will work out: Canada !

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## Woody

Another issue I commented on was joint ownership. Just as in law, my wife jointly owns our house car boat lawnmower etc. We are both LFO's and FAL holders as is our daughter.  We use whatever suits at the time. Now what?
 Also, if I modify or build a new stock or change a scope mount or recoil pad they propose all sorts of applications and change of description etc for their register! Gee, I do this stuff almost weekly!

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## RUMPY

> Did you notice that every time you buy or dispose of a firearm you have to relist again all those you have previously listed?
>  Nearly all of it seems incongruous and repetative. Very onerous for clubs too. I've completed the 40 pages and two hours on I felt disbelief that this extent of attempted change could occur in NZ. It's improperly seeking a lot more than just a register IMO.


I completed it yesterday and feel the same and made a point as often as possible in the comments about how over the top the detail they are asking for.

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## RUMPY

> one word to describe it all FUSTERCLUCK
> 
> they couldnt even get b or c right in rego, how do they expect this to work?
> 
> one word to describe how this will work out: Canada !


Hahaha,  that was my closing statement. 

"Have a look at how it went for Canada "

Even included a link about the massive cost overrun and inaccuracy of it all. 

Told them to spend their time and money on dealing with criminals.

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## GDMP

> Did you notice that every time you buy or dispose of a firearm you have to relist again all those you have previously listed?
>  Nearly all of it seems incongruous and repetative. Very onerous for clubs too. I've completed the 40 pages and two hours on I felt disbelief that this extent of attempted change could occur in NZ. It's improperly seeking a lot more than just a register IMO.


Its happening because those opposed to firearms have been given a free hand,and there is next to no opposition from the several hundred thousand shooters out there.

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## Ranger 888

Guys, the overriding theme here seems to be we are in agreement the register will end up as a clusterfuck, because it will contain far too much irrelevant detail, will be prone to data entry errors, will be obscenely expensive to establish and maintain, will be a HUGE administrative burden on police and will not actually solve a crime (the last 2 points were the very reasons the last register was dropped in 1983.

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## Three O'Three

A quick history search shows why registry isn't a good idea

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## No.3

> Its happening because those that think there are votes in appearing to be tough on firearms issues but have no idea what they are tampering with have been given a free hand,and there is next to no opposition from the several hundred thousand shooters out there.


Fixed it for you...

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## No.3

> Another issue I commented on was joint ownership. Just as in law, my wife jointly owns our house car boat lawnmower etc. We are both LFO's and FAL holders as is our daughter.  We use whatever suits at the time. Now what?
>  Also, if I modify or build a new stock or change a scope mount or recoil pad they propose all sorts of applications and change of description etc for their register! Gee, I do this stuff almost weekly!


Good points... Can multiple people have a firearm on their ticket to save on transfer BS?

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## Rushy

> Good points... Can multiple people have a firearm on their ticket to save on transfer BS?


People jointly owning a firearm is a reality.  My youngest daughter and I have several B category firearms jointly owned on our endorsements.

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## Danger Mouse

> People jointly owning a firearm is a reality.  My youngest daughter and I have several B category firearms jointly owned on our endorsements.


This is gonna be great. Im going to eat a lot of popcorn watching police fuck this up.

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## gonetropo

its a fuck up before its even started.
they couldnt register b c or e correctly let alone every single firearm from now on in. hell a mate is still waiting for a license for 18 months and all he want to do is get a 10/22 for a vineyard in otago

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## rambo-6mmrem

I have no issues with the Registry in its self 
It’s no Different than Rego on a car you buy a new car you put it in your name….
It also means you have a record of your firearms incase of theft 

Things I am worried about are what if the Registry is hacked or leaked 
It could be used as a shopping list for the criminals

Is there any catches ie are they going to start asking you to justify everything you own etc etc 


The registry it’s self is probably a good thing imo….. as long as the access to the information isn’t abused by the powers that be

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## 7mmwsm

> I have no issues with the Registry in its self 
> It’s no Different than Rego on a car you buy a new car you put it in your name….
> It also means you have a record of your firearms incase of theft 
> 
> Things I am worried about are what if the Registry is hacked or leaked 
> It could be used as a shopping list for the criminals
> 
> Is there any catches ie are they going to start asking you to justify everything you own etc etc 
> 
> ...


The firearm registry will be nothing like vehicle registration.
I can own as many unregistered vehicles as I like. I only need to register those I wish to use in a public place. I can even have unregistered vehicles in a public place with no penalties ie on a trailer.
I'm not threatened with jail for having an unregistered vehicle.
I would perhaps agree with a firearm register if it were the same as vehicle registration (only need to register those I wish to use in a public place) . But then it would be waste of time and money, as it will be anyway.

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## small_caliber

> I have no issues with the Registry in its self 
> It’s no Different than Rego on a car you buy a new car you put it in your name….
> It also means you have a record of your firearms incase of theft 
> 
> Things I am worried about are what if the Registry is hacked or leaked 
> It could be used as a shopping list for the criminals
> 
> Is there any catches ie are they going to start asking you to justify everything you own etc etc 
> 
> ...


But you do know that anyone can change the ownership name of any vehicle, the new owner can report it stolen and the new owner is in the right according to the police.
Will that happen with firearms also?

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## imaca

> I have no issues with the Registry in its self 
> Its no Different than Rego on a car you buy a new car you put it in your name.
> It also means you have a record of your firearms incase of theft 
> 
> Things I am worried about are what if the Registry is hacked or leaked 
> It could be used as a shopping list for the criminals
> 
> Is there any catches ie are they going to start asking you to justify everything you own etc etc 
> 
> ...


Of course there are catches and of course they will start to ask for justification for everything that you own
And of course the registry will be abused by the powers that be, why would you think otherwise?

It's not a shopping list for crims and I wish people would stop using this as an argument against the register.  If crims knew you had a FAL they would just figure out what they want to steal once they get there, there is no selectivity to it.  

It is however a CONFISCATION list for the police/government.
They'll start with some unusual and low volume firearms because "it only impacts a small number of people"
Then some more
Then some more
And so on

The police continue to argue that it will stop the "flow'" of firearms from licensed owners to unlicensed but again, that is only after the fact and I'd warrant you could go a long time between audits and have purchased a lot of firearms in the meantime.  That's your gang initiation passed, a spell inside, a patch and a meth dealership awaits you once you are out.
Or of course, just add a couple of crates of guns to your drug importation order.  

A clusterfuck it will be

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## Woody

I suspect that if they go the way of their proposals it will pretty soon result in an increased ack market and counter productive to a basic register.

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## rambo-6mmrem

> Of course there are catches and of course they will start to ask for justification for everything that you own
> And of course the registry will be abused by the powers that be, why would you think otherwise?
> 
> It's not a shopping list for crims and I wish people would stop using this as an argument against the register.  If crims knew you had a FAL they would just figure out what they want to steal once they get there, there is no selectivity to it.  
> 
> It is however a CONFISCATION list for the police/government.
> They'll start with some unusual and low volume firearms because "it only impacts a small number of people"
> Then some more
> Then some more
> ...


I don’t think otherwise that’s why I said what I said 
I don’t mind the idea of the Registry
If it was used as such 

But I know it will be abused if they decide to ban more guns which they probably will and sadly I don’t think there’s much we can do about it you can bitch moan and protest all you want but they don’t give two fucks about what we think… so yes they will know exactly who’s got what 
But what is the other option keep the gun Illegally and risk your license 
Maybe just me but no firearm no matter how cool or nice is worth loosing your license over

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## imaca

> I don’t think otherwise that’s why I said what I said 
> I don’t mind the idea of the Registry
> If it was used as such 
> 
> But I know it will be abused if they decide to ban more guns which they probably will and sadly I don’t think there’s much we can do about it you can bitch moan and protest all you want but they don’t give two fucks about what we think… so yes they will know exactly who’s got what 
> But what is the other option keep the gun Illegally and risk your license 
> Maybe just me but no firearm no matter how cool or nice is worth loosing your license over


 @rambo-6mmrem I think we are in vigorous agreement!

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## Cigar

> Maybe just me but no firearm no matter how cool or nice is worth loosing your license over


What if they want to take all of them? Then your licence is worth nothing anyway.

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## Woody

The criminally inclined won 't give a damm.

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## Cyclops

> I have no issues with the Registry in its self 
> Its no Different than Rego on a car you buy a new car you put it in your name.
> It also means you have a record of your firearms incase of theft 
> 
> Things I am worried about are what if the Registry is hacked or leaked 
> It could be used as a shopping list for the criminals
> 
> Is there any catches ie are they going to start asking you to justify everything you own etc etc 
> 
> ...


_It isn't if the Registry is hacked or leaked_ - *it is when  it is leaked or stolen.*
When the criminals get their copy of the registry - *and they will* - it becomes their shopping list with the what where and how details. 

Whatever security you have is  meaningless when several large criminals threaten to beat the proverbial out of you our your family if you open your safe(s) for them. Registry might help to subsequently recover or identify your stolen firearms. It won't protect you.

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## Cyclops

> _It isn't if the Registry is hacked or leaked_ - *it is when  it is leaked or stolen.*
> When the criminals get their copy of the registry - *and they will* - it becomes their shopping list with the what where and how details. 
> 
> Whatever security you have is  meaningless when several large criminals threaten to beat the proverbial out of you our your family if you open your safe(s) for them. Registry might help to subsequently recover or identify your stolen firearms. It won't protect you.



That should read  _if you don't open your safe(s)_

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## gonetropo

end of the day if some scumbag has a gun pointed at you or knife at your kids throat etc the safe will get opened. and registration will only add to the extra risk of this happening. only takes one person who has the ability to see the info and who needs the cash or drugs they need to leak the info or some bright bugger who can hack their way into the database and the risk of being held hostage to release our firearms will increase

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## csmiffy

I had a thought that in the old days of the paper registry any sort of sharing through illegal or criminal activity, would be minimised by being more localised but that obviously went to poose recently from sensitive document being left in that abandoned cop shop.
Once online it will be widespread with no doubt.
The biggest reason other than cost that it will fail.
The side notes of almost guaranteed major inaccuracy and just outright lack of ability to actually manage it in a timely manner also does it no favours.
Actually the last point is probably the biggest thing.
They have been struggling to manage licenses.
What's the bet they wont be able to keep up with it from the start to make it work even on that level

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## Danger Mouse

> The criminally inclined won 't give a damm.


And that's what this idiocy always comes down to

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## GDMP

As endorsement holders already know,the current register of restricted items has not been particularly accurate over the years.......can't see why the much larger one will be any different.And this time the problems will affect all license holders not just the relative handful with endorsements.

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## BSA

> As endorsement holders already know,the current register of restricted items has not been particularly accurate over the years.......can't see why the much larger one will be any different.And this time the problems will affect all license holders not just the relative handful with endorsements.


Especially as we all do it in hard copy rather than on-line, and remember we have until 2028. Why on earth should we make it easier for them when they are going far and away out of their way to make it as difficult as it can be for us.

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## Eat Meater

Put all this stuff in your submissions folks. The more holes you can pick in it the better. 
Be as specific as you can and provide ideas on how to get it to work better.

Then if they don't listen at least you tried,  and if they don't then you have a right to complain because you submitted. 

Always identify your target beyond all doubt because you never miss and I will be missed

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## Marty Henry

COLFO  had said they would have a summary up sometime this week.  I will be keen to see this and see if there's anything I overlooked.  Submissions close 14 October so still time to add another to the heap that will be ignored.

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## NZShoota

Link to thread by Percy Jones with COLFO's response

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....egistry-87361/

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## vulcannz

Wonder if Pinnacle Health stored LFO info?

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## TeRei

> Dumb idea that you if you buy ammunition you have to enter the info on all your firearms in the registry - it will result in an early flood of info and crash the whole system.


Wrong. It is part of a scheme to know every bit about how many guns you have and how much ammunition. Inexorably ... you do not need that amount of ammunition and seek for it to be reduced or forfeited. Mark my words.

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## no1_49er

> COLFO  had said they would have a summary up sometime this week.  I will be keen to see this and see if there's anything I overlooked.  Submissions close 14 October so still time to add another to the heap that will be ignored.


Go here  https://www.facebook.com/colfonz/  for their response.

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## Woody

Just seen this from the meeting. 
Regulations discussed, to date only 180 submissions received and given the low response to date there will be no modification of the proposed regulations. PLEASE MAKE YOUR SUBMISSION SO WE MAY HAVE A CHANCE TO INFLUENCE THIS.
  --- So; as it stands; they are intending  IGNORE submissions made so far on the excuse of not enough!  Cripes! Did I waste my time?

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## Cyclops

Got my submission done. 
2.5 hours.
Do it.

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