# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  FMJ on animals

## 2gnscib

Anyone got much experience with FMJ on animals?

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## res

As a general idea it's bad-very very bad, but sometimes certain ammo is ok on some sizes of animals. 
What ammo do you have and what do you want to hunt?

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## P38

My old man used ex army 303 ammo for donkeys years on Deer, Pigs and Goats........ worked ok for him.

When I was an apprentice I made a drill jig for him so he could drill out the tips of the projectiles and turn it into hollow points.

Cheers
Pete

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## Beavis

The Mk VII .303 ammo would tumble ferociously, so I have read. Pretty base heavy with a cardboard or alloy tip.

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## MassiveAttack

Its very iffy particularly if you are planning to shoot goats with 223 FMJ. The normal thing to do I this situation is to pull all the projectiles out and replace them with cheap soft points keeping the same powder charge.

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## Toby

head shots you'll be right

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## P38

> head shots you'll be right


 :Thumbsup: 

Your on to it Toby

Cheers
Pete

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## MassiveAttack

Unless you miss the fairly small brain and shoot it's jaw off, then it's bad, very bad.

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## steven

um might depend on the velocity/range for the 55gr in an ar15?  From what I read at high velocity the 55gr is meant to tumble on impact and split at the canular causing a bad wound just like a softpoint? so same effect as a soft point, but at longer ranges that doesnt happen, it just goes straight through.

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## Beavis

That's how M193 performs inside like 100m, generally. If I had to I would use FMJ. Not really any point if you have any other option.

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## Chris

When I was a bit younger & had bugger all money ,the local gun smith (ex military trained) showed me how to file off the tip of FMJ ammo to perform as well as soft point sporting ammo. 
The trick is to file the point down until the lead core shows ,you can drill a small hole in as well but don't really need to .
We use to get some wicked exit holes with it ,goats mainly & there was a lot of them around here . Cheap ammo to go out & bomb up a big mob & a lot of fun .

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## Marty Henry

Nathan fosters website is a mine of info, he reckons that the norinco 55gr .223 would perform as well as hunting ammo something to do with the bullet design makes it work as Eugene Stoner intended

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## Beavis

Stoner didn’t intend anything with .223. The cartridge was selected for the AR15 after research done at Aberdeen proving ground. Stoner/Sullivan's original intended cartridge was 7.62x51.

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## Monsterbishi

Have used 62gr SS109 on bunnies before, despite going through like a knife through butter (Still made them dead though) it often broke their legs even though the wound didn't connect with any bones.

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## Tararua Phil

I've used fmj through 303,223,7.62x39 on animals up to & including goats but wouldn't recommend it as a general hunting projectile, They killed ok with good placement but would prefer the sp or hollows. I also hollow pointed fmjs to make it cheaper & perform better & they worked well generally. I've never shot deer/pigs with them however.

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## TeRei

> Nathan fosters website is a mine of info, he reckons that the norinco 55gr .223 would perform as well as hunting ammo something to do with the bullet design makes it work as Eugene Stoner intended


Unfortunately he is prone to making claims on calibres he has not used or extensively experimented with.

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## Yukon

I've shot foxes with FMJ that I loaded up for my Sako .222. Unless cleanly headshot, they would run around 80 metres, then drop. Sometimes, their livers would be hanging out of the exit hole. FMJ are only good if the intention is to sell the pelt.

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## northdude

I use to file the tips off the 6.5 ammo I use to use it was wicked how it opened up on animals I managed to get a sample projectile ive got still someware

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## rupert

Northdude: what ammo/bullet were you using? Could you put up a pix of the sample?

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## northdude

it was ex mil ammo I use to get real cheap rarely you see it come up on tm ill see if I can find the sample and get a pic

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## Tasbay

Remember our govt deer cullers were issued .303 jmf and they shot a few deer. Shot most of my life with FMJ ammo in .303 and 7.62x39mm. Had never really shot anything else until I won a national hunting competition with a No4 and FMJ. Won a Mod7 in some new 7mm08 cal for that, it kills deer to.
Some of the guys I have hunted with never shot Deer, Pigs, Whap or Thar with anything else but .303FMJ.

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## Matt2308

Of course a FMJ can and will kill animals...but why would you use FMJ when there are so many better options available?

Even if you have an endless or cheap supply, what's the point of running a greater risk of badly wounding or losing an animal, when a better suited projectile would kill it faster and more humanely in most situations!

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## MassiveAttack

> Of course a FMJ can and will kill animals...but why would you use FMJ when there are so many better options available?
> 
> Even if you have an endless or cheap supply, what's the point of running a greater risk of badly wounding or losing an animal, when a better suited projectile would kill it faster and more humanely in most situations!


+1, show respect for the animals you hunt and do your best to prevent fuck ups.

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## jackson21

Used 7.62 X 39 FMJ out of an AK for rabbits and hares many years ago before they were naughty MSSA rifles. We were quite surprised how shit ammo was at clean kills. Sights designed for shooting at people didn't help as wasn't precision shooting. They were normally running, but 30 shot Banana Mag did as you needed to turn them into a furball sometimes.
A carefully placed .22 win powerpoint out of scoped JW-15 seemed better or 870 12G but not half as much fun.

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## jackson21

My best guess is say a modern SST would have say 3 x potency as a FMJ in same ammo, no data or anything to back up just an opinion. Unless you get into FMJ bullets tumbling, or hollowing out as mentioned above which I would have no idea on....

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## 2gnscib

Interesting the post about filing them flat. Must do some testing.

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## Toby

Be careful, if you file off too much the lead will leave the barrel and the copper jacket could get stuck in the barrel. Next shot could be your last so check the barrel each shot you fire

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## Matt2308

> Be careful, if you file off too much the lead will leave the barrel and the copper jacket could get stuck in the barrel. Next shot could be your last so check the barrel each shot you fire


Don't think that's quite how it will work mate.

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## res

> Don't think that's quite how it will work mate.


It has happened a lot, wether it has killed anyone is another question. 

I have my grandfathers old rifle that has a fucked barrel from this happening. 
My father just clipped the tips off with side cutters for close bush hunting-one day he took to much off. 

Fmj is a misleading name as most jacketed projectiles are formed from "cups" of the jacket material-on fmj the remnants of the open top of the cup is at the back while soft point/hollow point/ballistic tip hunting ammo has it at the front. 
So if you take to much off the front the high psi of the propellant could push the core out. 

You used to be able to buy kits that took a "safe" amount off and created a hollow point. 
I doubt they would be considered safe today.

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## northdude

there was an article in a nz gun mag where they took the projectile out and turned it round and shot it backwards apparently it worked well they were shooting goats with it

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## northdude

hey haven't forgotten the pic I moved a little while ago and havnt come across my recovered projectile collection amongst all my crap yet  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Yukon

> It has happened a lot, wether it has killed anyone is another question. 
> 
> I have my grandfathers old rifle that has a fucked barrel from this happening. 
> My father just clipped the tips off with side cutters for close bush hunting-one day he took to much off. 
> 
> Fmj is a misleading name as most jacketed projectiles are formed from "cups" of the jacket material-on fmj the remnants of the open top of the cup is at the back while soft point/hollow point/ballistic tip hunting ammo has it at the front. 
> So if you take to much off the front the high psi of the propellant could push the core out. 
> 
> You used to be able to buy kits that took a "safe" amount off and created a hollow point. 
> I doubt they would be considered safe today.


It's a long time since I loaded with FMJ, but I'm pretty sure that the base was open, which is the reverse of a softpoint, where the copper covers the base. I can see a situation where the jacket could be left in the barrel if both ends are open.

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## smidey

have a read of this, well worth the time. It speaks about the 223 overall and also what a FMJ does on impact etc
.223 Remington

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## steven

> Nathan fosters website is a mine of info, he reckons that the norinco 55gr .223 would perform as well as hunting ammo something to do with the bullet design makes it work as Eugene Stoner intended


I dont think, or I have seen no proof Stoner knew exactly what the effect would be.  Could be wrong, so if someone has a URL Im interested in reading it. As a target guy I have not paid much attention to the wounding side of it, paper is paper.  Anyway I spent some time digging in my info as I got interested in the Q and my books have quite a lot on it.

The first commonly issued M16 had a 1 in 12 twist (lets ignore the 1 in 14 oopsie) and first, the 55gr FMJ.  From what I have read that bullet only worked because it was only just stable and because of its very high velocity, 3200fps.  So as long as you are above 2500fps the proper/real FMJ is going to split in 2 major pieces at the canalure plus fragment and do a lot of damage, it also reads that it needs to be not over-stabilized.

So shooting the proper 55grain FMJ in a 1 in 12 twist (typical?) 22inch barrelled boltie at a terminal velocity of no less than 2500fps might work very well (<250m?),   Note by 2300fps the bullet is no longer snapping in half by the way from the photos/research I have seen.

There are also FMJs and FMJs.  So Belmont sells what they call seconds, 556nato, 55FMJs at $28 (ish) per 50 strikes me they are cheap, seem pretty accurate from my target testing so could work really well in a bolt gun on an animal below 200 or maybe 250m.  The FMJs in say barnual ammo? I have no idea if it breaks up the same, it might be stronger as its steel jacketed? best avoided I suspect.  If hand loading for a bolt gun, well it looks like you want them as fast as possible to work better.

If you are going to have a go, let us know how you do, I for one am very interested if it works, especially as its cheap!

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## brodster

I tried some FMJ 223 on goats once because I don't like all the wastage from SP. It was only 20m away and took them straight down with vital shots, but the bleeding still wasted a lot of meat and from inspecting the wounds I saw how sensitive it was to shot placement. Have a go and judge for yourself. I don't use them now though, not much point since SP is still cheap, I just use the steel-case Russian stuff which is fine.

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## northdude

found them these are 6.5x55 that had the tips filed

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## timattalon

> It's a long time since I loaded with FMJ, but I'm pretty sure that the base was open, which is the reverse of a softpoint, where the copper covers the base. I can see a situation where the jacket could be left in the barrel if both ends are open.


Quite right. The construction is shown in a diagram here. If you file the top off an FMJ all that is holding the core into the copper jacket (Or full metal jacket) is the shoulder or taper at the front. With the availability of the SP or HP projectiles I would not suggest altering an FMJ into anything else. The risk of damage to the gun and your person is definitely there if it is done wrong. Note that of you take the tip off a FMJ then all you have is a metal tube open at both ends with a heavy core in the middle. The resistance of the rifling in the barrel pulls the hard metal exterior but if that distorts there is nothing pulling the core back hence where it leaves the possibility of having a jacket left in the barrel after the core is gone.

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## Haggie

> Quite right. The construction is shown in a diagram here. If you file the top off an FMJ all that is holding the core into the copper jacket (Or full metal jacket) is the shoulder or taper at the front. With the availability of the SP or HP projectiles I would not suggest altering an FMJ into anything else. The risk of damage to the gun and your person is definitely there if it is done wrong. Note that of you take the tip off a FMJ then all you have is a metal tube open at both ends with a heavy core in the middle. The resistance of the rifling in the barrel pulls the hard metal exterior but if that distorts there is nothing pulling the core back hence where it leaves the possibility of having a jacket left in the barrel after the core is gone.


Ive shot some 303s and 308s  that had the nose pinched off with some pliers, the ballistics resembled a slinky. If you smacked a goat with them tho it was game over.

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## steven

Um, the chances of a jacket being left in the barrel is an almost comical idea to me, I have great difficulty believing it.  Also I dont think lead is poured in but swagged (pressed) in.  

The weakest bullets you are going to get will be cast lead, so taking off the copper jacket of an FMJ at the tip where it sees less force of the spin but leaving the main body shouldnt be an issue.

On top of that a good FMJ that is designed to break up by tumbling, well it just seems casually altering it to remove this capability, odd.

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## Beavis

One of our club members shot a couple of deer recently with 62gr ADI projectiles and said it worked mint. Don't know any other details.

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## shooternz

> Um, the chances of a jacket being left in the barrel is an almost comical idea to me, I have great difficulty believing it.  Also I dont think lead is poured in but swagged (pressed) in.  
> 
> The weakest bullets you are going to get will be cast lead, so taking off the copper jacket of an FMJ at the tip where it sees less force of the spin but leaving the main body shouldnt be an issue.
> 
> On top of that a good FMJ that is designed to break up by tumbling, well it just seems casually altering it to remove this capability, odd.


Go find an old gunsmith and ask him, When I first started shooting I used to hang out at the local gunshop quite a lot the gunsmith that owned it was ex army and had a stack of .303 barrels 
taken of old stuffed Le Enfield's a good number of them had jackets stuck in them, a .303 has 45000 psi pressure when fired so a lead plug is not going to stop it, the lead core is swaged into the jacket
not bonded, as lead is soft and slippery compared to the jacket it will part company with the jacket leaving it in the barrel, FMJ's are not designed to break up that just happens some times go to any range
and you will find FMJ's intact most of them will be bent like bananas the broken up ones are ricochets thats where the tumbling bullets come from not from hitting flesh, any bullet so unstable that it tumbles
on impact is not any use it won't fly straight or penetrate far enough the military is all about putting holes through things if the projectiles break up on light cover they are not of much use,
Also cast lead bullets are harder than the cores of FMJ's bullets general they are pure lead as it is easy to swage into the jackets, soft point bullet cores are some what harder usually 3% antinomy 
is added to pure lead to slow expansion, where a cast bullet is made up of 92% lead 6% antimony 2% tin, If you want cheap bullets use cast ones as long as there are wheel weights and lead flashings
available there will be plenty of cheap bullets,This is what a cast bullet will do if you get it wrong

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## veitnamcam

Looks like you got it right if that's an exit?

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## shooternz

Not really wasted a lot of meat, bullet was to soft for the velocity

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## Nimoy5414

Its mostly depends upon the ammo you have and after that size of animal you are going to hunt.

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## Jexla

Guys, please don't cheap out on killing animals, we need to keep our sport as humane as possible despite what anyone may tell you about FMJ. Keep your FMJ for your steel and paper targets as I do.

Thanks

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## Danny

I will agree with you on that, however I would seriously wonder how many on here who only take home a handful of deer per year would consider using less than the 'best' projectile for the job. It's the one thread I'm always reading up on. It's interesting. 
We are so lucky today with our possible selections. Even the bare-bones SP is effective as and is as cheap as chips. Or chops.

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## Micky Duck

when I first bought my .223 I purchased 100 rounds of the norinco yellow box ammo Nathan Foster talks about to break her in and use for shooting wallabies as we went out every month to feed our dogs (pre big 1080 campaigns) I shot everything from hare to goats with that 100 rounds and everthing I saw backs up what he says...they are a unique round very loud/hot/fast and have "some" recoil unlike my milder reloads...noticeably different to shoot.
so yes SOME fmj works very well on game but a good soft point or barnes will usually do better.
and yes the .303 would shed jacket in barrel, if you saw pink colored material when you "dum dumed" a projectile you chucked it out and didn't do any others with same head stamp.
to say it didn't happen is naïve just have a look around/read a bit more or ask old fellas who have been there and done that.

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## Boaraxa

I remember taking my BSA 303 upto awakino for a weekend goat shooting had 100 odd army rounds to use up....bullets would just go straight through leaving pencil size exit holes if you hit a bone wasn't so bad but got a little disheartening blasing into a mob of goats and watching some of them run off into the scrub and start screaming...FMJ is not really for hunting as said above you could snip the tips off but don't snip to much off you don't want the copper jacket getting left behind inside the barrel...never happened to me but have been warned .

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## steven

There is, or I assume there is a difference between the 223 FMJ of which it is know that it tumbles and fragments on impact acting like a SP (if the velocity is high enough) V a 303Brit which I am not aware has that effect?  Also talking to a lot of old NZers they just bought surplus 303 ammo as it was very cheap, though some used SPs and they mostly never handloaded.

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## Micky Duck

that's an over simplification
many variables to take into effect
all FMJ is not made the same or indeed designed to behave the same way
the tumbling is caused by projectile getting off balance enough to yaw and switch ends thus starting to tumble
too fast of rifling SHOULD stop it..too slow and it happens sooner taken to extreme..too fast could make projectile pull itself apart through centrifugal force etc too slow and it will tumble and key hole straight away...centrifugal force?????? take bullet traveling 3000fps in a 1 in 12" twist........ that's 3000rev per SECOND times by 60 secs per minute = 180,000rpm
projectiles designed to tumble..the MK5?? .303 Has soft light stuff in front of lead core making bullet tail heavy...upon impact it wants to switch ends especially if hit at angle..same can be done by having slow rifling making projectile barely stable in flight.
hope that explains it better.

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## Comfortably_Numb

Same with the russian white/blue box of 7.62x39 m8 effect rounds.
These steel jacket lead cored and copper washed bullets, have an air pocket at the tip, to promote tumbling on impact.

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## hybridfiat

'Way back when' we used what we could get and made the most of it. 
We used FMJs filed or not, because that's all we had. 
Now that is no longer the case.  So, use hunting ammo when hunting.

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