# Hunting > Game Bird Hunting >  no lead from 2021

## Dino

Much talked about ban is now official

https://fishandgame.org.nz/news/fish...hot-from-2021/

Dino

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## Pointer

Had to happen. Don't think I'll ditch the subgauges though.

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## mikee

Guess I wont be shooting ducks anymore then. Stick with upland and the occasional goose or even just shoot geese and no need for a licence

I wonder who will import all the Sub Guage Non toxic shot. No one is yet.

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## Dino

I have just purchased a 20, 686 silver pigeon and purchased knowing a ban on lead is likely.

Justified it as I will use it for quail.

I only shoot ducks a bit and will try and source some lead equivalent like tungsten. might be expensive but recoil on steel shot out of 12ga is too much for me!

Dino

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## Pointer

Is this ban only over water?

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## Gibo

> Is this ban only over water?


If I read it correctly its to align to the existing ruling as 10&12 , 200M from water

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## Pointer

Oh well business as usual then

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## Gibo

> Oh well business as usual then


410s still all go for lead too  :Have A Nice Day:  for your lil one  :Wink:

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## Pointer

They'll be banned by 2033 too  :Pacman:

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## nightshooter

this how been coming since non-toxic shot came in for 12g,no one was bringing in non-toxic for the 12g until they had to.there will be some good cheap 20g's for sale in the next few year's,time to start saving guy's  :Thumbsup:

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## Danger Mouse

Ironically the US is finding that steel is worse than lead in waterways. it rusts and turns the water orange.

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## carlhurley

fishing sinkers will be next

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## Rushy

> Ironically the US is finding that steel is worse than lead in waterways. it rusts and turns the water orange.


I can remember saying that years ago when steel was first introduced here.

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## Sideshow

What scientific studies have been carried out in NZ that have findings the same as overseas?
Different environments!
Sure shallow lakes you may have a problem. But in general crock of s***!

Why are country's now bring lead back for shooting?

I recon we should all shoot with 1080 doc sees no problem with dropping that in our waterways  :Wtfsmilie:  more damage being done there :ORLY:

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## Maca49

> Guess I wont be shooting ducks anymore then. Stick with upland and the occasional goose or even just shoot geese and no need for a licence
> 
> I wonder who will import all the Sub Guage Non toxic shot. No one is yet.


There'll be none to shoot by then! Steel is wiping out the mallards isn't it?

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## gsp follower

> However hunters using smaller shotguns such as 20 gauge have been exempt, primarily due to the previous* limited availability and high price of non-toxic ammunition for* these guns.


so Bryce Johnson whats changed.
 you said the insignificant number of 20 gauge users was to small to be bothered regulateing. against[



> *New Zealand scientific studies showed the problem was the same here as in overseas countries,” Mr Johnson says.
> *
> Bryce Johnson says extending the non-toxic shot requirement to most shotguns was inevitable.
> 
> Right: 20 Gauge ammunition is coloured yellow to differentiate it from other gauges.
> 
> “*At the moment, nine out of ten of our hunting licence holders already use non-toxic shot because they own 10 or 12 gauge shotguns*. 
> 
> Advances in ammunition manufacture means good quality non-toxic shot is now available for smaller shotguns, so we are asking the small minority left to follow their example,” Mr Johnson says.


1] bullshit how could it be even phil Robertson said how different our birds and hunting conditions/areas were
2] so how many licence holders is that your costing fun fortune and stress as they try and find ammo no bastards gonna bring in for such a tiny market
your tunes changed pretty quick a year or two go stenning and his ilk were fantasists and over stepping their responcibilities to their licence buyers.
same bullshit different idiots :Grin: 
 no supply wrong loads in the wrong shot sizes same as the 12.
mark my words nothing will be learned.

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## FatLabrador

Does anyone hunt gamebirds with a 10 gauge or no of enyone who does. Does this apply to 16 gauges cus there fek all 16 gauge rounds let alone steel

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## Cordite

Here is a link:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14567226

Here is the article summary on the link.  Speaks for itself.  Would you feed one of these ducks your kids, or to your dog?

J Wildl Dis. 2003 Jul;39(3):638-48.

Acute toxicity of lead, steel, and an iron-tungsten-nickel shot to mallard ducks (Anas platyrhynchos).
Brewer L1, Fairbrother A, Clark J, Amick D.

Author information
1  EBA, Inc., P.O. Box 554, 2900 Quakenbush Road, Snow Camp, North Carolina 27349, USA.

Abstract
Twenty mallards (Anas platyrhynchos) of both sexes were dosed by oral gavage with Heavi-Shot (H-S; Environ-Metal, Inc., Sweet Home, Oregon, USA) pellets, 20 with steel shot, and 10 with lead (Pb) pellets, all of equal size. All pellets were fired from a shotgun into an absorbent material, retrieved, and weighed prior to introduction into the ducks. Birds were fed whole kernel corn and grit and observed for signs of toxicity for 30 days following dosing. Hevi-Shot pellets lost an average of 6.2% of their mass and steel shot pellets lost 57% of their mass in the birds' gizzards. Almost all (90%) of the Pb shot dosed birds died before the end of the study, while no mortality was observed in the steel or H-S dosed groups. Even though total food consumption differed between the H-S and steel shot groups, mean bird weight change was not different. There were no significant morphologic or histopathologic abnormalities of the liver and kidney in the H-S and steel shot groups. Results indicated that mallards dosed orally with eight No. 4 H-S pellets were not adversely affected over a 30-day period, and that H-S provides another environmentally safe nontoxic shot for use in waterfowl hunting.

PMID: 14567226 DOI: 10.7589/0090-3558-39.3.638 [Indexed for MEDLINE]

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## gadgetman

> Here is a link:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14567226
> 
> Here is the article summary on the link.  Speaks for itself.  Would you feed one of these ducks your kids, or to your dog?
> 
> J Wildl Dis. 2003 Jul;39(3):638-48.
> 
> Acute toxicity of lead, steel, and an iron-tungsten-nickel shot to mallard ducks (Anas platyrhynchos).
> Brewer L1, Fairbrother A, Clark J, Amick D.
> 
> ...


That is rather misleading. How much shot were they force fed and how does that compare to the amount of lead ingested by birds in the wild? There was a study done here and it worked out that with the sub guage shotguns the likelihood of finding any lead shot in a bird was something like 4/100th of 1%.

It is more about politics to show they are doing something as they push for cleaner waterways from other polluters.

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## gsp follower

> That is rather misleading. How much shot were they force fed and how does that compare to the amount of lead ingested by birds in the wild? There was a study done here and it worked out that with the sub guage shotguns the likelihood of finding any lead shot in a bird was something like 4/100th of 1%.
> 
> It is more about politics to show they are doing something as they push for cleaner waterways from other polluters.


I get the 410 exemption to get kids started but what about people who physicly cant use the 12 and the 410 wouldn't not be useful to for their waterfowling or goose hunting.
seems just as much consideration should be given to keeping older and frail hunters in the field as well.
they know no ones gonna bring in 20/16/28 steel they f&g just don't give a monkeys.
after all duckshooters are nothing but a poor returni and a pain in the arse.
all ways wanting ducks to hunt and  places to put up maimais.
hassling us and doc to keep our creeks waterways and tracks clear anyone would think they pay a 100 buks for the priveledge.
ooh oops

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## Nathan F

Im probably going to get slammed for this but all you pro lead guys need to move on. Its fucking boring to listen too. We have shot hundreds of ducks season after season since the ban was introduced. Sure it took a bit of getting used too 
with different speeds and chokes etc but I reckon it kills as well as anything else when used correctly . By used correctly I mean the right shot charge for the game , Speed , Choke and marksmanship. Concealment is key. Most of my ducks are shot within 15-25 m . Its not going to change and to be frank there are much bigger issues to worry about like firearms amendment recommendations. Are we all going to be crying years after the fact that our semi auto's are gone ?

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## mikee

I dont really give a shit what I shoot out the end of the barrel but I hunt with a 28ga and a 20ga. I would ask where can I buy the non-toxic loads for these?? Anyone................................Anyone......  ..................no. 

When / if they are available at what cost?

 I once got hold of a 1lb bottle of "Nice shot" ,from the USA, which was great stuff but it worked out at $7 worth of shot per cartridge which for duck shooting is madness @ 16 1oz reloads from a 1lb. It was great stuff and killed really well but at a cost. 


Nice Shot Inc

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## gadgetman

> Im probably going to get slammed for this but all you pro lead guys need to move on. Its fucking boring to listen too. We have shot hundreds of ducks season after season since the ban was introduced. Sure it took a bit of getting used too 
> with different speeds and chokes etc but I reckon it kills as well as anything else when used correctly . By used correctly I mean the right shot charge for the game , Speed , Choke and marksmanship. Concealment is key. Most of my ducks are shot within 15-25 m . Its not going to change and to be frank there are much bigger issues to worry about like firearms amendment recommendations. Are we all going to be crying years after the fact that our semi auto's are gone ?


I've never shot game birds with lead. However if changes are made then they must be justified and reasonable. Would you like the powers that be to just say you can no longer have any firearms with no reasons given? With lead shot in sub gauges the numbers simply do not stack up for a ban. So why has it been pushed? It is certainly not justified nor reasonable. This points more to it being used as a political lever for something else.

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## kawhia

i agree with nathan f, move on and protect what we have, it was always going to happen after southland kept pushing the issue and letters were sent to the minister and i would say there's a few guys down there that think they just saved xmas for everyone.
the point not mentioned is the minister stopped short of a total ban on all lead shot in all gauges even outside the game bird season.......yep total ban, and who the hell wanted that ?
what the bright sparks down south don't realise is that once you start banning or losing shit it gives weight to other issues that may suddenly appear........plastic wads and shooting spoonies being my main concern.

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## Nathan F

> I've never shot game birds with lead. However if changes are made then they must be justified and reasonable. Would you like the powers that be to just say you can no longer have any firearms with no reasons given? With lead shot in sub gauges the numbers simply do not stack up for a ban. So why has it been pushed? It is certainly not justified nor reasonable. This points more to it being used as a political lever for something else.


I don't know. I can see pro's and con's on both sides. Im not big on conspiracy theories.

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## gadgetman

> I don't know. I can see pro's and con's on both sides. Im not big on conspiracy theories.


I'm the same on the pros and cons side. From relevant studies there isn't actually that much in favour of steel. One of the big things was the fertility rate of birds dropped with lead in their system. Yet there was also evidence that steel shot resulted in a lot more wounded birds and as a result the number of dead birds increased. The drop in overall bird numbers through the wounding tended to outweighed the drop in fertility. So if the numbers didn't stack up then why was the lead ban introduced?

Any argument about keeping lead out of the environment is really quite irrelevant, it is mined and processed from the environment. It is not a man made substance.

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## gsp follower

> the point not mentioned is the minister stopped short of *a total ban on all lead shot in all gauges even outside the game bird season.*......yep total ban, and who the hell wanted that ?
>  what the bright sparks down south don't realise is that once you start banning or losing shit it gives weight to other issues that may suddenly appear........plastic wads and shooting spoonies being my main concern.


would she have gone that far given the heli shooters wont use steel in the braided river beds??



> *Im probably going to get slammed for this but all you pro lead guys need to move on.* Its fucking boring to listen too. We have shot hundreds of ducks season after season since the ban was introduced. Sure it took a bit of getting used too 
>  with different speeds and chokes etc but I reckon* it kills as well as anything else when used correctly . By used correctly I mean the right shot charge for the game* , Speed , Choke and marksmanship. Concealment is key.


no slamming about it Nathan f here your opinions as valued as anyone elses.
well given ive got 2 boxes of what I'm told is the only available steel 20 gauge ammo in the country remote useful for waterfowl,and steel still cant be used for clays so practise is out,
where would you suggest Nathan f we get the ammo chokes and marksmenship practise??.
would you say the introduction of 12 steel was handled well or did we get a load of mis information by so called sponsored experts that probably cost thousands of wounded waterfowl.
I would darely like to avoid the same mess but given I cant get one supplier to say the will bring in 20 gauge steel let alone the even less used gauges,i cant see that mess being avoided again. 
what am I supposed to do??.buy a 12 I cant use properly because they fucked up and didn't do their job right in the first place.
 or because they created a market for subgauges which they,ve unilateraly decided now is an embarrassment.??
yes steels passable and kills things when you use the right loads and shotsizes but subgauges are way more sensitive to this and there wont be the steel ammo choice of the 12 guareentee it.[img][/img]
just over half these parries were killed with the only 20 gauge steel waterfowl load available 3 inch blackcloud 2,s 
it was not pretty broken wings tight elongated and or uneven patterns out of a quarter choke even.

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## Sideshow

Interesting about plastic wads.
Haven't used them for a number of years here in the U.K. 
All fibre wads. For pheasant and partridge as land owners don't want there ground covered in plastic.

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## mikee

> Interesting about plastic wads.
> Haven't used them for a number of years here in the U.K. 
> All fibre wads. For pheasant and partridge as land owners don't want there ground covered in plastic.



Same I use fibre wads when hunting however the ground(s) I shoot clays on look like a wad delivery truck has had a messy accident

and i have no issue with using Non-Tox shot if only I could buy it locally

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## gqhoon

People seem to have conveniently short memories and forget that prior to the restrictions on 12G lead usage, there was no non-toxic ammo available here, despite it being readily available overseas. Yet once the restrictions were imposed, the importers started bringing it in....so too will it happen next year for sub-gauges. One importer I spoke to has already confirmed such. First, without a demand, there is simply no need to supply.

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## 300CALMAN

I have only ever shot 2 times with lead and only with steel ever since. I can only say that this will push even more to 12G semi autos which is not a bad thing.

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## gsp follower

> People seem to have conveniently short memories and forget that prior to the restrictions on 12G lead usage, there was no non-toxic ammo available here, despite it being readily available overseas. Yet once the restrictions were imposed, the importers started bringing it in....*so too will it happen next year for sub-gauges. One importer I spoke to has already confirmed such.* First, without a demand, there is simply no need to supply.


yep and I remember the cheap nasty shit that was available fiocchi and b&p
I don't doubt you gq but h&f aint interested the suppliiers to the 2 other shops and the hull agent not interested either.
given your example which I remember to be reasonably correct in relation to supply 9 out of 10 waterfowl hunters.
can you honestly say there,l be a rush to supply less than 1 out of 10 hunters.
I hope your right and I'm wrong and supply is widespread and various but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

[/QUOTE] ihave only ever shot 2 times with lead and only with steel ever since. *I can only say that this will push even more to 12G semi autos which is not a bad thing*.[/QUOTE]

id be more inclined that subgaugers might go the 2 3/4 inch steel route and lightweight 12,s those that can afford or want to.
but why 12 gauge semi,s and why would it be a good thing 300calman??

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## A330driver

> Ironically the US is finding that steel is worse than lead in waterways. it rusts and turns the water orange.


If it's possible,could you please reference or produce and article pertaining to that.Not saying it's not true at all.We use steel shot,as we have too,and I have discussed that very issue with game/bird  managnent here in Oregon,their  take is more damage from lead than from steel.The lesser of the two evils.

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## mikee

> id be more inclined that subgaugers might go the 2 3/4 inch steel route and lightweight 12,s those that can afford or want to.
> but why 12 gauge semi,s and why would it be a good thing 300calman??


Because most 12ga hunters seem to think you need to fire shells with heavy payloads and hence recoil which the semi auto will help make manageable.

Personally I see no advantage in a semi as it would seem most regions are restricting to 3 shots or as here in Tasman "no magazine extensions allowed".

I will be sticking with my 20 and 28ga Under and Overs myself

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## EeeBees

> yep and I remember the cheap nasty shit that was available fiocchi and b&p
> I don't doubt you gq but h&f aint interested the suppliiers to the 2 other shops and the hull agent not interested either.
> given your example which I remember to be reasonably correct in relation to supply 9 out of 10 waterfowl hunters.
> can you honestly say there,l be a rush to supply less than 1 out of 10 hunters.
> I hope your right and I'm wrong and supply is widespread and various but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


 ihave only ever shot 2 times with lead and only with steel ever since. *I can only say that this will push even more to 12G semi autos which is not a bad thing*.[/QUOTE]

id be more inclined that subgaugers might go the 2 3/4 inch steel route and lightweight 12,s those that can afford or want to.
but why 12 gauge semi,s and why would it be a good thing 300calman??[/QUOTE]

Personally I see it as a deviant means of one day in time it will be a useful excuse to eliminate semis ... we will follow the track Australia has set ...

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## EeeBees

I am not obviously up to speed on this so I am left wondering what was F&G consultation process with licence holders in this?

I mean to say, poor old F&G ... 150 years anniversary of the introduction of the Mallard into this country and this years licence depicts the Californian Quail ... they cannot even get that right ...

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## gqhoon

> yep and I remember the cheap nasty shit that was available fiocchi and b&p
> I don't doubt you gq but h&f aint interested the suppliiers to the 2 other shops and the hull agent not interested either.
> given your example which I remember to be reasonably correct in relation to supply 9 out of 10 waterfowl hunters.
> can you honestly say there,l be a rush to supply less than 1 out of 10 hunters.
> I hope your right and I'm wrong and supply is widespread and various but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


If retailers and importers can make a dollar on a sale, then they will bring it in. Plain and simple, as that's the sole reason they are in business.

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## EeeBees

_The use of non-toxic shot for waterfowl hunting is already mandatory in many overseas countries, including the United States, Canada, Europe and some Australian states._

"Some" ... only Victoria, South Australia, Tasmania and Northern Territory are permitted ... yet thousands of ducks are shot on the rice in New South Wales ... again a classic example of double standards ...

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## gsp follower

> If retailers and importers can make a dollar on a sale, then they will bring it in. Plain and simple, as that's the sole reason they are in business.


you knpw they cant and wont the hassles of importing ammo the pre ordering needed and the amounts wanted will make it a non starter.
nice of f&g to give us grace period to find something else to use I guess but still a big pain in the arse they,ve got me twice now.



> Personally I see it as a deviant means of one day in time it will be a useful excuse to eliminate semis ... we will follow the track Australia has set ...


never happen EeBees as long as theres 3 inch and bigger steel there,l be semi,s no bugger in his right mind is gonna shoot that shit[ ,3 or 3.5 inch steel ]out of a sxs or u.o :Grin:

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## 300CALMAN

> you knpw they cant and wont the hassles of importing ammo the pre ordering needed and the amounts wanted will make it a non starter.
> nice of f&g to give us grace period to find something else to use I guess but still a big pain in the arse they,ve got me twice now.
> 
> never happen EeBees as long as theres 3 inch and bigger steel there,l be semi,s no bugger in his right mind is gonna shoot that shit[ ,3 or 3.5 inch steel ]out of a sxs or u.o


Simple, most people I know went from pumps or U/Os to a gas operated semi to cut down on the recoil of the nasty steel ammo.

The more people who have semi's the more who will be pissed if the government tries to ban them. I think it will work against an attempt to ban semi's.

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## gqhoon

> you knpw they cant and wont the hassles of importing ammo the pre ordering needed and the amounts wanted will make it a non starter


There is no more hassle to importing 20G steel, as there is 12G steel. 

Those of us who are prepared to adapt, will do some research, buy a few boxes of different ammo, pattern it and familiarise themselves with it. They will practise with cheap 20G steel clay loads to learn the differences in lead required and just get on with it.

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## mikee

> There is no more hassle to importing 20G steel, as there is 12G steel. 
> 
> Those of us who are prepared to adapt, will do some research, buy a few boxes of different ammo, pattern it and familiarise themselves with it. They will practise with cheap 20G steel clay loads to learn the differences in lead required and just get on with it.


I may be doing just that providing i can get hold of some except for the clays practice as steel shot is banned on all NZCTA grounds (safety issues) as far as I am aware. 
Shooting clay's with mate in a paddock with a single trap does not constitute practice in my book

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## gsp follower

> The last two duck shooting 'eye-opener' shoots I attended had no issue with us using steel atleast.


public or private gq club names if you don't mind



> There is no more hassle to importing 20G steel, as there is 12G steel. 
> 
> Those of us who are prepared to adapt, will do some research, buy a few boxes of different ammo, pattern it and familiarise themselves with it. They will practise with cheap 20G steel clay loads to learn the differences in lead required and just get on with it.


oh yea chamber adapters for smaller subgauges oops
 stop being a dick gq if you wanted to start your familiarisation tomorrow you couldn't and to try and bullshit up ''your gonna have lots of choice'' is laughable.
there.l be no such thing as cheap 20 gauge steel



> There is no more hassle to importing 20G steel, as there is 12G steel.


oh ok so they don't have to order it 6 months or more ahead.
 it don't get flown cos its a dg so by boats your only option and even then it don't always go when its supposed to .
cos of only so many dg classifacations allowed or limited room for some classifacations.
 you can get it sent from and to anywhere in the country anytime by any carrier sweet??
wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn. :Grin:

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## gqhoon

> I may be doing just that providing i can get hold of some except for the clays practice as steel shot is banned on all NZCTA grounds (safety issues) as far as I am aware. 
> Shooting clay's with mate in a paddock with a single trap does not constitute practice in my book


Yup, that's the one Mike. I've noted several clay-shooting grounds renewing their Resource Consents or getting them for the first time are being required to use steel, so presumably they're not NZCTA affiliated. The last two duck shooting 'eye-opener' shoots I attended had no issue with us using steel atleast.

One thing we won't be able to avoid unfortunately, is the use of plastic wads in all the steel clay-shooting loads we use. But atleast the photo-biodegradable options are available. They do still look unsightly until they've disappeared though.

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## gqhoon

By my recollection, 20G and 12G steel target loads have been available in NZ since late 2010. At about $120/slab I didn't think it was too expensive?

Have used it at both private and public clay-shoots, with no issue after explaining what it was.

Happy enough to use it on pigeons also.....430 picked up after a mornings shoot, both 12G and 20G steel 7's.

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## gqhoon



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## gqhoon



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## Wirehunt

hahaha  Looks like I've shot my last opening, but frankly I couldn't give a shit.  Duck numbers have been dropping down here for years INCLUDING southland.   Ponds etc that used to shoot very well were a total write off this opening in the heart of southland  :Grin:    So southland f&g should pull their fucking collective heads out of their arses and wake up.
It's more like duckshooters are the sacrificial lambs so they can get more for fishers.  Just saying...

If the cock smokers at f&g think I'm not going to kill rabbits around waterways with lead they are sadly mistaken.  If they even set foot on a property I'm working they will be charged under the H&S act.

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## gsp follower

> Happy enough to use it on pigeons also.....430 picked up after a mornings shoot, both 12G and 20G steel 7's


were they paying for the pleasure



> By my recollection, 20G and 12G steel target loads have been available in NZ since late 2010. At about $120/slab I didn't think it was too expensive?
> 
> Have used it at both private and public clay-shoots, with no issue after explaining what it was.
> 
> Happy enough to use it on pigeons also.....430 picked up after a mornings shoot, both 12G and 20G steel 7's.


yes but I bet you get the clay stuff via guy as he imports shitloads .
does he have any plans to add waterfowl loads to the mix??



> Have used it at both private and public clay-shoots, with no issue after explaining what it was.


so just to be clear you used it to shoot skeet and down the line sporting with no problems??
no telling you to bugger off cos it richochets of the clay houses??



> 3" Steel Magnum Waterfowl 35gram         Steel 2 3/4" 35 gram FPS1350         Steel 2 3/4" 32 gram FPS1450         3" Steel Magnum Waterfowl 35gram   Steel 2 3/4" 35 gram FPS1350   Steel 2 3/4" 32 gram FPS1450   $145.00  $129.00  $125.00                         ___________________________ Sign Up!  Click here to sign up to receive our newsletters and specials by email


the maimai supplies the other main importer of nsi ammo shows no 20 gauge steel??trap or hunting



> We are able to ship items using Mainfreight and Toll to your nearest* main centre.*  
> 
> Before we can ship any ammo, rifles or shotguns we do require you to complete the Police Mail Order Form that can be obtained from any Police Station or downloaded from our site.  This needs to be completed at the Police Station and the Police Officer will then scan the form direct to us once it has been verified.
> 
> *Freight varies from area to area so contact us to get the most up to date freight price to your area.
> *


don't forget there is a multi case minimum order to same as there would be to import it think the hull man 3500 rounds.

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## gqhoon

You really do make a lot of assumptions kwb. Why direct import and just piss off the local importer? The 20G Gamebore Supersteel (or name something like that) was available from Kilwell. B&P stuff from ammo-NZ, and NSI from Maimai Supplies.

Simulated and sporting clays. They don't use Trap or Skeet fields.

I get that you're desperate to make the whole steel 20G thing as arduous as possible and make out the somehow F&G have got it in for you or some shit. But really kwb, you're gonna need to pull your head out of your own arse long enough to get a glimpse of the reality that is currently in front of you. Either adapt and enjoy your sport, or keep ahold of your old ways and get left behind. The choice really is yours.

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## mikee

> You really do make a lot of assumptions kwb. Why direct import and just piss off the local importer? The 20G Gamebore Supersteel (or name something like that) was available from Kilwell. B&P stuff from ammo-NZ, and NSI from Maimai Supplies.
> 
> Simulated and sporting clays. They don't use Trap or Skeet fields.
> 
> I get that you're desperate to make the whole steel 20G thing as arduous as possible and make out the somehow F&G have got it in for you or some shit. But really kwb, you're gonna need to pull your head out of your own arse long enough to get a glimpse of the reality that is currently in front of you. Either adapt and enjoy your sport, or keep ahold of your old ways and get left behind. The choice really is yours.


While I would agree with your sentiments regarding steel, here is the direct quote from the rules of nzcta ( http://www.nzclaytarget.org.nz/cmafi...20book%202.pdfso no steel on their grounds for practice.




> 4-13
> Cartridges. 
> a)
> Before shooting the length of the cartridge 
> must not exceed standard specifications of 
> 70mm. 
> b)
> Shot loads must not exceed 28 grams. A loading tolerance of 0.5 grams will be permitted. 
> c)
> ...


To be fair I have never found any sub guage non toxic available here locally in my region nor were any sotres very helpful. I would like to try it if only I could get it. I'm only a casual duckshooter so would not be buying more than 2-3 boxes a year unlike for clays ammo which would be 2 slabs a month

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## gqhoon

Yup, the NZCTA regs mean you've got to seek out alternative grounds. I've never had a problem finding such up here, a mix of private and public membership associations.

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## gsp follower

> You really do make a lot of assumptions kwb. Why direct import and just piss off the local importer? The 20G Gamebore Supersteel (or name something like that) was available from Kilwell. B&P stuff from ammo-NZ, and NSI from Maimai Supplies.
> 
> Simulated and sporting clays. They don't use Trap or Skeet fields.
> 
> I get that you're desperate to make the whole steel 20G thing as arduous as possible and make out the somehow F&G have got it in for you or some shit. But really kwb*, you're gonna need to pull your head out of your own arse long enough to get a glimpse of the reality that is currently in front of you*. Either adapt and enjoy your sport, or keep ahold of your old ways and get left behind. The choice really is yours.


your so fulla shit gq your eyes are brown,
killwell lists *no 20 gauge steel* nor does nz ammo co or ammo nz or tom dick and fuckin harry incorporated.
the only place your using steel clay loads is setups like treetops  guys [where you undoubtabley get yours from]or practise shoots at those type of setups
I,l have no choice but to adapt but just cos you used to be something in F&g don't try and make out its for our own good and it,l be easy .

----------


## Mike H

Just to clear up a few things for the likes of KWB. There are no minimums required for the importers as far as what their suppliers will provide. I enquired when we were debating this down here originally. In terms of their ordering most will be putting in orders for next season before the end of this season. There'll likely be more choice next season as a result of the rules being indicated now. There is time and if the market demand is there there'll be a supply. One of the big distributors, not a shop, said he'd bring in even one case if I wanted, I just had to do it through a shop on their order so they weren't seen to be cutting out their client. I've personally used Gamebore and Winchester steel in a sub gauge and found it to be fine. You can also find me on Facebook shooting geese with an ounce load of steel 7s! As a result I won't be selling my 20 gauge. 

This bullocks about needing to practice with steel on an NZCTA ground is even more crap. The only possible difference between lead and steel when it comes to getting your eye in is velocity. All you need is a lead load doing similar to the steel load you use. Even then though its mostly in your head. I shoot AA grade in skeet and sporting with lead doing 1200fps. My hunting steel load is doing 1450fps and I can't tell any real difference switching between game and clays. It might be 6 inches difference in lead, within a pattern thats a couple of feet wide. Hunters who switch between lead and steel now when they shoot over land don't seem to have many problems. The only difference is that birds decoying well are miles slower than clay targets and you actually need less lead. You can't learn that on clays, especially DTL or skeet with driven targets. That comes from time in the field and choosing your shots. Learn to hunt, learn to shoot and move on.

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## gsp follower

> In terms of their ordering most will be putting in orders for next season before the end of this season


MM HOW MUCH PRE ORDERING IS THAT 12 MONTHS THAT DONT HAPPEN ACCORDING TO GQ



> One of the big distributors, not a shop, said he'd bring in even one case if I wanted]


SWEET MIKE WHATS YOU SUPPLIERS NAME AND CONTACT DETAILS I,L GIVE HIM A YELL.
IM SURE HE WONT MIND SHIPPING FROM SOUTHLAND CAN I USE SOUTHLAND F&G AS A REFERENCE :Grin: 



> This bullocks about needing to practice with steel on an NZCTA ground is even more crap


just as well a cos you cant
 so practise makes perfect is conditional to  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 



> ]*There are no minimums required for the importers as far as what their suppliers will provide.* I enquired when we were debating this down here originally. In terms of their ordering most will be putting in orders for next season before the end of this season. There'll likely be more choice next season as a result of the rules being indicated now. There is time and if the market demand is there there'll be a supply. One of the big distributors, not a shop, said he'd bring in even one case if I wanted,


so* barry fosters* the *hull agent* iN Christchurch is a liar is he ??
*hunting and fishing * to ?? 
their exact words we have no plans to import 20 gauge steel nor have we imported any .
the ad in the magazine was a mistake [3 inch blackcloud]
whose next on the fizzhog fan club network paul??or guy.
we had a 5 season phase in for the larger gauges and that took 3 years to get decent ammo 5 years by the time we figured out the so called experts were full of shit even tho they claimed to have used it extencively thru their sponsors and the bigger shot sizes were best.
so 7 years on we finally got somewhere with it,
 I don't expect the subgauge story to go any better?
 those with 16,s and 28,s can forget any steel and any non toxic you will be able to get will be subject to massive prices and minimum orders.
IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME BUT FIND GQ/MIKE/F&G BELIEVABLE JUST TRY YOUR LOCAL SUPPLIER YOURSELF.
LET ME KNOW HOW YOU GET ON.
because your so diligent f&g  mike and gq I bet you,ve spoken to target products and asked them to load or think about loading subgauge steel huh.
*adding it to their falcon line or importing fiocchi subgauge steel no .
cos they don't plan to either*.

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## Marty Henry

Switch to depleted uranium, its much heavier than lead and because its not lead it must be safe.

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## kawhia

I think kwb used it as a young fella before switching to lead.

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## kawhia

and indent orders for ammo are completed at the end of the season, and all suppliers have plenty of time to get the first few pallets in time for next season.....and i'm sure i read it correctly that it is to be phased in over a few years anyway ??????

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## gsp follower

> I think kwb used it as a young fella before switching to lead.


 very good kawhia  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
the cost and availability between du and subgauge non toxic will be about the same.
still waiting on that saint of a suppliers details mike MIKE you there mike

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## Mike H

I'm not even going to give KWB the decency of a complete response until I can interpret his diatribe. He must spend a lot of time hacking up people's responses into separate quotes. 

As for Hull, they're a small player here so there may be restrictions on them. One of the suppliers I've talked to actually supplies H & F, another one, one of my good friends works for as a rep, can't get a much better source than that. As to naming them I'm not going to just so he can go annoy the shit out of them. Time will show me to be correct and arguing with a nobody on here won't achieve much. 

I can understand Target Products not getting into the market. Its going to be a smaller market than it is now as most of the sub gauge guys are just going to go back to a 12 gauge. Then again you probably wouldn't have bet on them making steel target ammo but yet they do.

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## mikee

> I'm not even going to give KWB the decency of a complete response until I can interpret his diatribe. He must spend a lot of time hacking up people's responses into separate quotes. 
> 
> As for Hull, they're a small player here so there may be restrictions on them. One of the suppliers I've talked to actually supplies H & F, another one, one of my good friends works for as a rep, can't get a much better source than that. As to naming them I'm not going to just so he can go annoy the shit out of them. Time will show me to be correct and arguing with a nobody on here won't achieve much. 
> 
> I can understand Target Products not getting into the market. Its going to be a smaller market than it is now as most of the sub gauge guys are just going to go back to a 12 gauge. Then again you probably wouldn't have bet on them making steel target ammo but yet they do.


There are way more reasons to use a sub-guage than just the ability to use lead. As I have said I will try non-toxic when I can actually buy it locally and i will give it a fair crack but since i dont really shoot waterfowl much at all then its really moot point. Actually It might mean more flag the sport of duck-shooting and move to other things

You would have thought that F&G would be advocating for the the majority views of its license-holders what ever that may be (however with out seeing any actual numbers the numbers I suspect like all things its been hijacked by the "squeeky wheel minority" 

I really could not give a toss either way all I have ever asked is to be able to buy non toxic loads locally and only time will tell if this actually ever happens but I won't be holding my breath

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## gsp follower

> I'm not even going to give KWB the decency of a complete response until I can interpret his diatribe. He must spend a lot of time hacking up people's responses into separate quotes. 
> 
> As for Hull, they're a small player here so there may be restrictions on them. One of the suppliers I've talked to actually supplies H & F, another one, one of my good friends works for as a rep, can't get a much better source than that. As to naming them I'm not going to just so he can go annoy the shit out of them. Time will show me to be correct and arguing with a nobody on here won't achieve much. 
> 
> I can understand Target Products not getting into the market. Its going to be a smaller market than it is now as most of the sub gauge guys are just going to go back to a 12 gauge. Then again you probably wouldn't have bet on them making steel target ammo but yet they do.


no mikey I just like to dissect peoples bullshit stories piece by piece.




> One of the big distributors, not a shop, said he'd bring in even one case if I wanted


it must be love mike :Grin: 




> As for Hull, they're a small player here so there may be restrictions on them. One of the suppliers I've talked to actually supplies H & f


bullshit cough cough BULLSHIT.
ive talked to 3 separate franchise,es they have no intention of ordering any so that makes your supplier opinion redundant.


> You would have thought that F&G would be *advocating for the the majority views of its license-holders* what ever that may be (however with out seeing any actual numbers the numbers I suspect like all things its been hijacked by the "squeeky wheel minority


you,d think so especialy after mikey and pauly got spanked for jumping the gun and not consulting their licence buyers in the first place.
but no they,ve talked csi and eastern and a few of their other shooting buddies in other regions to support them and they,ve got the numbers now.
you wont see any concrete numbers of 20 gauge users even less chance for the 16 or 28.
 but ok its in but please don't bullshit us its gonna be sunshine and lolliepops



> Time will show me to be correct and arguing with a nobody on here won't achieve much.


are you under the mistaken impression your somebody mike?
unfortunately mike no you just sit alongside somebody at the southland meetings :Grin:

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## Pointer

> There are way more reasons to use a sub-guage than just the ability to use lead. As I have said I will try non-toxic when I can actually buy it locally and i will give it a fair crack but since i dont really shoot waterfowl much at all then its really moot point. Actually It might mean more flag the sport of duck-shooting and move to other things
> 
> You would have thought that F&G would be advocating for the the majority views of its license-holders what ever that may be (however with out seeing any actual numbers the numbers I suspect like all things its been hijacked by the "squeeky wheel minority" 
> 
> I really could not give a toss either way all I have ever asked is to be able to buy non toxic loads locally and only time will tell if this actually ever happens but I won't be holding my breath


So whats the problem? if you only shoot upland, and the odd duck then one box of steel for the 20 wont break the bank. It really is business as usual for upland hunters who use a sub-gauge. 

As for availability, if I can find 2.5 inch shells for a 16 gauge in this fair country, (in Dunedin of all places!) then I'm sure some clever cookie will bring in steel game loads for the 20. I think a few here need to untangle thy titties. It's not like you didn't see it coming, and they've given both shooters and ammo suppliers plenty of time to adapt.

As for the I don't use a 20 just so I can shoot lead, well, lets see how many sub-gauges get punted off on TM soon. And those that would give up duck shooting because they have to use steel probably weren't that keen to start with. If it was your passion you'd find a way to do it.

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## Pointer

And I will add, this is coming from a guy who doesn't own a 12 bore. one 16, two 20s and a 28 bore.

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## mikee

> And I will add, this is coming from a guy who doesn't own a 12 bore. one 16, two 20s and a 28 bore.


I don't have an issue with using it.................................. the issue I have is buying it locally. I don't want to buy a slab only a couple boxes to keep just in case, nordo I want to faf about with ordering it online and paperwork from "the boys we all love and trust" I just want to be able to go to the store buy it and I'm not even meaning cheap, hell I would quite happily buy 2-3 boxes of Bismuth ammo if I could find it

And I already know quite a few guys who have swapped ducks for geese!!

Myself Id swap ducks for clays any day. Quail and Pheasants however I will continue to chase no matter how hard it gets or how the rules change.

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## Pointer

I'm sure it will be available. In fact, a good side business opportunity for someone?

Great thing about the 4 year weaning period is that we'll know by then if steel is available or not. If not,then we can all rush out and buy a 10 gauge  :Have A Nice Day:  I love an excuse to buy another gun...

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## mikee

> I'm sure it will be available. In fact, a good side business opportunity for someone?
> 
> Great thing about the 4 year weaning period is that we I'll know by then if steel is available or not. If not,then we can all rush out and buy a 10 gauge  I love an excuse to buy another gun...


Personally the best thing I can see it I may finally get my SxS 28ga at a reasonable price

----------


## gqhoon

> your so fulla shit gq your eyes are brown,
> killwell lists *no 20 gauge steel* nor does nz ammo co or ammo nz or tom dick and fuckin harry incorporated.
> the only place your using steel clay loads is setups like treetops  guys [where you undoubtabley get yours from]or practise shoots at those type of setups
> I,l have no choice but to adapt but just cos you used to be something in F&g don't try and make out its for our own good and it,l be easy .


Oh really, so I've never been and picked up Gamebore 20G steel direct from Kilwell, and then had trips back over the Mamaku's with 20 slabs making the arse of my ute drag on the ground? Well you'll forgive me for not losing any sleep on that while you unravel the mystery of the Gamebore ghost-ammo then. As I said to Mike via PM, I'm pretty much cleaned out of NSI stuff at the moment and I'm down to the last two slabs of B&P 12G steel target ammo....which according to your research doesn't exist.

And nope, I've never shot at Treetops. Gully-shoots, and sporting is what I enjoy though.

It's a shame that you're not willing to listen to the information that people are freely sharing with you. You're solely focussed on finding excuses on why something couldn't possibly work, instead of using the energy constructively to actually make it work for you. Throwing people's names around like you do, innuendo and unfounded accusations just tells me that you're still looking for someone to blame. Sad really, it doesn't seem worth the negative energy to me.

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## gqhoon

> so* barry fosters* the *hull agent* iN Christchurch is a liar is he ??
> *hunting and fishing * to ?? 
> their exact words we have no plans to import 20 gauge steel nor have we imported any .


I'd be disappointed if that was the response from the Hull Agent. But atleast you know that you don't need to give any of your hard earned cash if he isn't prepared to support the shooters who have supported him in the past.

And no disrespect to the persons you may have spoken to at H&F shops, but the decisions around importing things like ammo (being subject to a fair bit of negotiation, given the volumes they order) is done a fair way up the tree, like at Board level. And since it was their annual conference in Auckland last week, I'd say the important people were busy up there.

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## gsp follower

> I'd be disappointed if that was the response from the Hull Agent. But atleast you know that you don't need to give any of your hard earned cash if he isn't prepared to support the shooters who have supported him in the past.
> 
> And no disrespect to the persons you may have spoken to at H&F shops, but the decisions around importing things like ammo (being subject to a fair bit of negotiation, given the volumes they order) is done a fair way up the tree, like at Board level. And since it was their annual conference in Auckland last week, I'd say the important people were busy up there.


you said yourself gq theres gotta be a demand too make it worthwhile.
plus ive already told you he said a minimum order would apply  for him and me ..
so obviously you and mike have the numbers for 20 gauge users ??
 and if a local maker wouldn't do it without the extra freight and hassle  an overseas importer faces not to mention our high dollar.
why would anyone ??
*what you really don't want to own up to is the fact that if your wrong which I believe you are.
every pump semi or other moderately priced 20 gauge loses 30 t0 50 % of its value the day this becomes law and you cant get waterfowl suitable loads for it.
*less if it say a beretta browning or something of that ilk.
if that turns out to be true gun owners and licence buyers will know exactly whom to thank wont they.
.


> I'm down to the last two slabs of B&P 12G steel target ammo....which according to your research doesn't exist.


why would I be remotely interested in 12 gauge b&p steel in a discussion of subgauge steel you nob :Grin: 



> Oh really, so I've never been and picked up Gamebore 20G steel direct from Kilwell, and then had trips back over the Mamaku's with 20 slabs making the arse of my ute drag on the ground?


minimum order was it ??
I said they have none advertised nor does anyone else

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## Nathan F

You women that shoot sub guages just need to man up and throw your rubbish on the heap where it belongs and get 12ga and get on with it  :Wtfsmilie:

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## Pointer

12 gauge is for the weak. 10 bore is a mans gun!

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## kawhia

3.5 inch 12g killed the 10g.

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## gsp follower

> You women that shoot sub guages just need to man up and throw your rubbish on the heap where it belongs and get 12ga and get on with it


oh Nathan that you never grow old or frail :Grin: 



> 12 gauge is for the weak. 10 bore is a mans gun!3.5 inch 12g killed the 10g.


both are the bastard sons of the same insanity. :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: 
tho I did hear tell of a nationaly ranked presumembly well sponsored sporting shooter shooting magpies with 3.5 inch Remington nitromags in the wairarapa while we were there for the summer goose opening.

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## gonetropo

problem is it will start with no lead for ducks near water etc and end up as a total lead ban. you have to realise the people that make laws and more importantly their advisers are fuckwits

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## gsp follower

> =gonetropo;604145]problem is it will start with no lead for ducks near water etc and end up as a total lead ban. you have to realise the people that make laws and more importantly their advisers are fuckwits


think we.l be okay the sight of people shooting each other with richocheting steel while indulging in the easter bunny hunt or any other rabbit control will keep lead in the game for a while yet.
 same with clay shooting
t


> you have to realise the people that make laws and more importantly their advisers are fuckwits


don't know that I,d characterize everyone involved in these decisions that way.
but I do feel a little tag teamed by some founding members of the reach around club fortunately not the clever ones.

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## mikee

> problem is it will start with no lead for ducks near water etc and end up as a total lead ban. you have to realise the people that make laws and more importantly their advisers are fuckwits


Shortly followed by lead free rifle ammo mark my words, but them we will all either adapt.............................or give up as the case may be

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## Eyesplice

From the F&G Article:
Lead shot will be progressively phased out from 2018 for waterfowl hunting over and around large bodies of water, so by the time the 2021 season begins, all hunters will be using non-toxic shot for this type of hunting, Bryce Johnson says.

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## Gibo

> Shortly followed by lead free rifle ammo mark my words, but them we will all either adapt.............................or give up as the case may be


Barnes  :Grin:

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## gsp follower

> From the F&G Article:
> “Lead shot will be progressively phased out from 2018 for waterfowl hunting over and around large bodies of water, so by the time the 2021 season begins, all hunters will be using non-toxic shot for this type of hunting,” Bryce Johnson says.


sweet we.l give Bryce a ring he,l have asked distributors and importers  about whose gonna take up the slack and supply us??............................not fuckin likely :Grin: 



> Shortly followed by lead free rifle ammo mark my words, but them we will all either adapt.............................or give up as the case may be


we can learn from our cuzzies across the tasman and get used to throwing bent fuckin sticks at them :ORLY:

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## gsp follower

> From: Don Rood <drood@fishandgame.org.nz>
> To:  
> Sent: Thursday, 15 June 2017 11:55 AM
> Subject: Enquiry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


a reply fromf&g and my digs :Grin: 
B]Fish & Game has written to all major ammunition importers and retailers to inform them of the decision.  In addition, the board of Hunting & Fishing has been briefed on the decision.
[/B]
arse about face but no surprises there
B]Some ammunition importers already have non-toxic sub –gauge ammunition available [/B]and internationally, the major ammunition manufacturers in the United States and Europe are already making non-toxic shotgun ammunition in 16, 20, 28 and .410..[/B]
who where and not just gq,s private supply of trap loads at a 20 case minimum

B]The four year phase-in period for the need to use non-toxic shot will allow importers time to adjust their orders and inventory and gauge customer demand for the new ammunition they will need to bring into the country.

[/B] 
give you just enough time to flick your 20 at a lesser loss than if you wait 4 years for this fallacy to happen

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## gsp follower

> *You also ask what information Fish & Game has on how many hunters use sub-gauge shotguns.  A 2009 survey of more than a thousand waterfowl hunters showed that the vast majority – 89% - used 12 gauge shotguns.
> 
> 
> 
> Only four percent said they used a subgauge – most of them were 20gauge users.
> 
> 
> 
> Of the more than a thousand hunters questioned, only five said they used 16g shotguns and three said they used a .410.
> ...


give me fuckin strength a 8 year out of date survey.
.[QUOTEThe importer of Federal ammunition is Sportways and that company can supply two different loads;



Black Cloud Steel 20g 3" 1oz #2 - steel, wad, tightens, patterns, long, range, ... - Sportsways Distributors Ltd



There is also an especially designed 20 ga load for closer range shooting available now in New Zealand;


Black Cloud CLOSE RANGE 20g 3" 1 oz #2 - black, cloud, close, range, put, pellets, ... - Sportsways Distributors Ltd
][/QUOTE]

if its even available I,l know tomorrow but I'm sure they aint cos I bought 3 0f the seven boxes in the country.
but they,re only available in 2,s they kick like 10 bastatrds and are 39 to49 buks a box if you can get them.
as we now know the larger shot sizes are shite for ducks.

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## Micky Duck

what a long winded read...but I waded right through BEFORE adding anything.
1st off target products WERE saying on web site they were bringing out lighter (1oz  7/8th oz ) .12ga loads soon and they didnt happen...... bugger they havent as they work plurry well...been there done that.
2nd steel loads sucked when we first got it..no arguments there,everyone was running scared ant the loads were simply too slow,once speeds got above 1400 fps they worked.
3rd where are the wounded ducks we are supposed to be getting with steel?????? we shoot a lake and have done so for 17 consecutive opeing weekends,this year we found only 1 single wounded bird and that was picked up by my dog,did get 1 single bird from out in the lake but in previous years going back 4 or 5 we would pick up 6-10 each and every time,our son learnt to shoot finishing off woundies from the boat using the wee .410.
4th and last if you want to shoot subguage get off your arse and start putting the hard word on local sports shop to get you in some ammo,or play nice and ask those who say they can get it...

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## Micky Duck

oops forgot to add,we prefer size #2 for ducks now after trying loads of other stuff over that 17 year period
the lake we shoot means we either kill em in close or range gets long quickly, the bigger pellets do this well or miss them completely the chance of a canada or 7 also means big pellets pay off for us.

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## gsp follower

> 3rd where are the wounded ducks we are supposed to be getting with steel?????? we shoot a lake and have done so for 17 consecutive opeing weekends,this year we found only 1 single wounded bird and that was picked up by my dog,did get 1 single bird from out in the lake but in previous years *going back 4 or 5 we would pick up 6-10 each* and every time,our son learnt to shoot finishing off woundies from the boat using the wee .410.
>  4th and last if you want to shoot subguage get off your arse and start putting the hard word on local sports shop to get you in some ammo,or play nice and ask those who say they can get it...


so still with early steel loads??



> 4th and last if you want to shoot subguage get off your arse and start putting the hard word on local sports shop to get you in some ammo,or play nice and ask those who say they can get it


believe me I'm trying outdoor adventure sports[who deals with fiocchi gamebore others], no local hunting and fishing /nationwide ,no, hull importer no minimum orders required to.
agree steel 2,s In 20 gauge fine on geese but the 20 stringing problems mean 3,s and 4,s are going to be needed.
I think we can agree that fast 3 inch 1 ounce payloads of 2 shot aren't the ideal duckload. :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## Micky Duck

gsp follower


yes the early slow steel loads were shite...pure and simple

a 1oz load of steel #2s going 1500fps is a good duck or goose killing load......with the right choke and within sensible range.....as is a 7/8th oz load.
(maybe not the best...for my money the 1 1/8th oz load of #2 or #3 doing 1550fps is pretty plurry hard to go past)
the light loads are plurry LOUD but kill well
been there and prooved it while getting the young fella used to the .12ga
we then went to 30 grm////// 1 1/16thoz factory loads from gamebore   
not because they were better but because making reloads with a old whackamole loader takes time and not all shells resized properly so ok in the single barrel but gave issues at times in other guns.

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## Wirehunt

When I asked a client if they preferred us using copper bullets it was a NO, seems that is worse for the ground than lead.   Now I assume f&g have gotten full toxicology reports on all the metals involved in 'no toxic shot' and it complies with all the organic paperwork.   If not why not?   Has f&g even thought about this?
Walk onto the wrong property with something non-compliant and watch them start jumping, they spend a truckload of cash getting that bit of paper and keeping it.   -Be a shame if they came after f&g-

I catch anyone out rabbiting with me and the dogs using steel and they will probably find their flash gun;
A:  Wrapped around their head.
B:  Having a new extension out of their arse.
C:  A combination of A and B unless I had a flash and thought of something even better to do with said gun.

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## tiroatedson

> they going to bring in 410 non toxic?.stopped duck shooting because of all this bullshit with the non toxic rules have seen /shot less ducks in the last few years but have seen more dead ducks lying around long ways from anyone shooting mainly because the hawks are finding the bodies.if the greenies get their way and duck shooting is stopped how are they proposing to control duck numbers as they will become a major pest within a couple of years poison maybe ?has anyone pointed this out to them.


They don't care. They just want firearms out of private hands. They think big picture and take a long view. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## gsp follower

> gsp follower
> 
> 
> yes the early slow steel loads were shite...pure and simple
> 
> a 1oz load of steel #2s going 1500fps is a good duck or goose killing load......with the right choke and within sensible range.....as is a 7/8th oz load.
> (maybe not the best...for my money the 1 1/8th oz load of #2 or #3 doing 1550fps is pretty plurry hard to go past)
> the light loads are plurry LOUD but kill well
> been there and prooved it while getting the young fella used to the .12ga
> ...


that loadis a cracker doesn't boot to much and is a proven killer on geese and ducks in 2 and 3,s outdoor adventure even had it in 4s to if I remember right.
.the 3 inch 20 gauge blackcloud load pure and simple is a shoulder smackin arsehole of performance in 2 shot on anything smaller than a medium sized Canada goose.
it might be ok in 4shot but believe me shooting at funny angles with it aint much fun if the 2 shot load is anything to go by.


Quote Originally Posted by berg243 View Post 

they going to bring in 410 non toxic?.stopped duck shooting because of all this bullshit with the non toxic rules have seen /shot less ducks in the last few years but have seen more dead ducks lying around long ways from anyone shooting mainly because the hawks are finding the bodies.if the greenies get their way and duck shooting is stopped how are they proposing to control duck numbers as they will become a major pest within a couple of years poison maybe ?has anyone pointed this out to them.




> The only exemption will be for the small bore .410 shotguns which are sometimes used by beginner hunters and for which humane non-toxic shot loads are not available.”




no the 410,s still exempt which raises more questions than it clears up.

what really fucks me right off is f&g are big on science and latest infomation to bash,[ and rightly so] certain areas, and PRACTISES IN FARMING.
but when it comes to us licence buyers  93 buks a year gets us f&g land sold to doc and a rangi bloody survey of 1,000 odd shooters from 2009 and thats considered good enough info and cause ?????
YEA FUCKIN RIGHT

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## Micky Duck

3" 20 guage is a bit of a hard case...sort of like the 3.5" roman candles in the .12ga
you push a big payload out of small bore and its going to hurt,either of those shells with smaller payload wont boot the same.
push a 1oz load out of either and it will be mild...up the .20ga to 1 1/4 and you starting to ask a falcon to fit into a minis parking space,the payload will be longer and harder to get moving as it has to squeeze its way through.
push a 3/4 oz load at 1300fps out of ANY of the guages with same weight shotgun and felt recoil SHOULD be similar the pattern board would be interesting.
trouble is and always has been when you get lightweight gun and feed it heavy loads.

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## gsp follower

> trouble is and always has been when you get lightweight gun and feed it heavy loads


Remington wouldn't know lightweight if it bit them on the arse but even so you feel the buggers :Grin: 



> ...up the .20ga to 1 1/4 and you starting to ask a falcon to fit into a minis parking space,the payload will be longer and harder to get moving as it has to squeeze its way through.


 i,ve shot a lot of the Winchester 20g 3 inch 36 gram copper plated 4s and 3 inch fiocchi 2,s
believe me the bc 3 inch steel load makes these look like pussys in the felt recoil stakes only unfortunately.
I,l try any load they bring if its available in useful shot sizes I hope I'm wrong but my gripe is I doubt we,l get the choice we get in 20 g lead or 12 steel I doubt we,l get f all choice to be honest.

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## Micky Duck

mate if you want a real tooth loosener...try some rem hypersonics (preferably in a shotgun you dont own) faaaark those puppies are naaaaasty. used up the half box I was given and never ever again. they were fed through my pump which was a heavy bitch to begin with and Ive added nearly another lb to that to help dampen recoil. I had 3 or 4 times where I short stroked action....or maybe the shells got shook up so much they didnt feed????? I would hate to think what they would be like in a light single barrel break open gun.
the winchester XPert loads are a nice load and I was stoked to find them at reasonable price this season.

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## gsp follower

funny you should mention hypersonic someone offered a case of them in 12 g 2 shot for 300 buks said maybe I could move them on to some goose hunters or the nzgbh.
guess I know why.
my worst recoil experiences was the 375 h&h a snider carbine  and a 28 inch barrelled 3.5 inch chambered extrema with mammoth 2 ounce loads.
the h&h pushed, the snider lifted you up and said back the fuck up ,the 2 ouncers literaly  hammered  you dizzy and made reconsider you life choices,.
firing 3 rounds left me curled up in the dirt in the foetal position crying for my mum :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## gsp follower

if I remember rightly mikee could give you an idea of the  20 g blackcloud loads behaveior out of an o/u




> Daniel Friedman <daniel@sportways.co.nz>   
> 
> 
> Hi Kevin,
> 
> 
> 
> *Thanks for the enquiry, we currently dont have anything in stock*. If you have a look at the Federal website we could bring in anything that is currently available. Let me know what you are after and I can get some pricing to your local dealer to quote you.
> 
> ...


helpful  emough chap. hopefuly no minimum order required

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## mikee

> if I remember rightly mikee could give you an idea of the  20 g blackcloud loads behaveior out of an o/u


Um yes and I gave them away to someone. Booot was an understatement

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## gsp follower

> Um yes and I gave them away to someone. Booot was an understatement


some poor unsuspecting hick from the Canterbury plains :Grin: 
I went and brought more mikee cos it was the only steel available and was told I needed it for the lake last year.
but that's been sorted and doc are gonna follow f&g rules now til its phased out I guess.
the rem 870 in 20 is no lightweight but some overhead shots with the blackcloud had me thinkin I was shooting 10 gauge out of a tooth pick.
I'm askin the distributor about prarrie cloud fs steel it comes in a 7/8 ounce load of 3s or 4s sounds more accomadating than the heavier black cloud load

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## gsp follower

> I'm askin the distributor about prarrie cloud fs steel it comes in a 7/8 ounce load of 3s or 4s sounds more accomadating than the heavier black cloud load]


sorry that should read prarie storm theres a game and target steel 2 3/4 inch load that should be interesting for decoying ducks pidgeons whatever depending on price.
quoted about 39 buks a box for the prarie storm upland steel load plus maybe some freight 29 for thw 2 3/4 load.which comes in 6s or 7s.
maybe have some by January next year more like febuary  maybe  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:

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## gsp follower

bloody f&g nz council twat says sportways doistributors got some now.?
NO THEY BLOODY AINT MR ROOD NOT A FRICKEN ROUND

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## Mike H

> bloody f&g nz council twat says sportways doistributors got some now.?
> NO THEY BLOODY AINT MR ROOD NOT A FRICKEN ROUND


They did until I brought it all lol.

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## gsp follower

> They did until I brought it all lol.


now i know your fibbing ive heard your as tight as a fishs arse and thats water tight. :Psmiley:  :Wink: 
they never had any mike h ..

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## greghud

i have a bit of federal steel in stock, there is a few options if you want to try some.

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## gsp follower

20 gauge?? what options mate?

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## gsp follower

> The 200m rule may sound like an odd exemption, but it does allow, for instance, hunting waterfowl over paddocks with lead. The Government originally proposed that ALL lead shot be banned for all activities, including ALL upland gamebird hunting, ALL clay target shooting and ALL farm pest control. Fish & Game was successful in having this extreme requirement softened.
> The 200m rule recognises that lead is not a problem away from waterways. Equally, *the smaller number of shotguns of gauges "less than 12" are not a statistically important factor in waterfowl poisoning by lead shot. Black powder exemptions are even fewer in number.* Black powder burns through shotgun wads so it's not really practical to force non* toxic shot upon these shooters when plastic wads are essential to protect bores from most types of non-toxic shot.
> While the 200m rule could be criticised, no one has yet thought up a better rule to fit the circumstances. A complete ban on ALL lead shot is very easy to understand. This is the alternative that was proposed. The concessions have been hard fought for to allow for paddock shooting of ducks and parries especially. Please respect them or we may all find that the original proposal to ban all lead shot may be introduced.
> For more information, please read our Toxic Shot Regulations FAQ.


the hypocrisy is unreal this is still on f&gs website
but this was harder to find



> I use a 20 gauge shotgun. How long can I continue hunting ducks with it? 
> 
> 
> The simple answer is for as long as you like. *If you hunt waterfowl over open water, you will have to use non-toxic shot from 2021. The new rules will be phased in over four years to give game bird licence holders with sub-gauge shotguns like 20 gauges time to get accustomed to the change and make the transition to non-toxic shot. *For the first two seasons – 2018 and 2019 – hunters can use up their existing stocks of sub-gauge lead ammunition. *In 2020, if they are hunting waterfowl on Department of Conservation or Fish & Game controlled land, they will have to use non-toxic shot and nothing else. *From 2021, non-toxic shot will be required for waterfowl hunting over open water in all shotguns except the .410 on all lands, public and private.

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## tiroatedson

My ducks have a fluffy little tail....if they sprout wings ..oh well


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## EeeBees

gsp follower wrote "same bullshit different idiots"

Perhaps "same idiots, different bullshit" ...  :X3: 

The question, I would like to ask is, what do we do with our 20g lead ammo ... dig a nice little hole and bury it ... get a refund ... use it all up 
 shooting clays???

Of course, steel is worse than any lead pellet ... lead pellets are often encapsulated under the skin, steel will bring about gangrene in time ...

Yeah, go ahead and reinvent the frecking wheel ... the wheels on the bus go round and round ... scream like noise ...!!!!

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## Rushy

Eeebees it is with a great deal of regret that I must inform you that we live in a modern over politically corrected world brought about by an ever increasing number of bunny loving, tree hugging, namby pamby, trendy lefty liberals that have decided that is to all of our benefit for society to dumb down and soften our approach to all things fun.  We can either yield to the idiotic changes these uber twats impose or flip them the bird and advise them that we have completely run out of shits to give.  Shoot your lead with gay abandon chick and all power to your right arm as you do.  From this we will now breed a following which will result in a NZHS lead only gathering where we will just shoot the living hell out of anything we choose and collectively say "to hell with these twatish morons.

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## mikee

> gsp follower wrote "same bullshit different idiots"
> 
> Perhaps "same idiots, different bullshit" ... 
> 
> The question, I would like to ask is, what do we do with our 20g lead ammo ... dig a nice little hole and bury it ... get a refund ... use it all up 
>  shooting clays???
> 
> Of course, steel is worse than any lead pellet ... lead pellets are often encapsulated under the skin, steel will bring about gangrene in time ...
> 
> Yeah, go ahead and reinvent the frecking wheel ... the wheels on the bus go round and round ... scream like noise ...!!!!


You could always use it on wabbits, hares and such. Oh and Geese since they are no longer a game-bird. I may be wrong but I thought the ban was only applied when hunting waterfowl? So we can still use it for upland hunting?

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## EeeBees

Thank you, Rushy ... I feel better now!!!   How did people get to be so damn dumb ...

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## EeeBees

What load would you need for a 20g on Canada geese ...?? I know, silly question ...  :Have A Nice Day:

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## gsp follower

ive managed to get 8 boxes of the 1500 ft per sec 7/8 ounce  federal upland steel load in 3,s and 4,s respectively. 
took over 6 months but its here thank christ 39 buks a pkt and hope fuly the early parrie opening will give me some insight into its efficacy. :Grin:

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## veitnamcam

Ban all lead and list em as pests as per the geese.....then I can  shoot them with gmx or barnes :Thumbsup:

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## Marty Henry

Ill be bringing out my hammergun which can only handle black powder, as it seems I can get an exemption. Will just have to organise a spotter to tell me if I hit them.

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## Sideshow

Had a black powder day two years ago on phesant and partridge  :Thumbsup:  now that was some really good fun :Grin:

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## Sideshow

As for dumb down @EeeBees @Rushy well I guess we reap what we sow :ORLY:  they just breed faster :O O:

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## gsp follower

> *What load would you need for a 20g on Canada geese* ...?? I know, *silly question* ...


not at all silly EeBees
 in steel the 3 inch black cloud 2,s are the only real option if you can get them.
but in lead i use  gamebore 2 3/4 inch  30 gram 4,s and or 3,s for close decoying birds with the fiochhi 30 gram load of two,s for the last load or two in the gun.
i used to use the 3 inch fiochhi 36 gram load in 2,s but found it unneccessary mostly, not to mention cheek rattling.
pass shooting geese hell yes the 3 inchers takes up spot 3,4,5, in the mag with 1,and 2, filled by the 2 3/4 inch 30 gram 2,s with a modified choke for all goose hunting.
unfortunatly pass shooting geese flighting off the river to stubble fields is pretty much fucked.
 thanks to constant pressure and greatly reduced goose numbers the birds wont even land in the paddock the want to feed in.
 but stage in paddocks a bit away from them and watch till dark almost for any danger signs and if they see dekes ''forget about it''

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## 7mmwsm

> What load would you need for a 20g on Canada geese ...?? I know, silly question ...


I shot with a guy who used a side by side 20 using 5 and 6 shot lead. He was getting just as many as anyone else, but focusing on head shooting them.

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## R93

> What load would you need for a 20g on Canada geese ...?? I know, silly question ...


4-5 shot works for me. The 20 is my sons gun but I have to buy the ammo and have not seen larger shot than 4,5 and 6 in stores locally. 

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## EeeBees

_I use a 20 gauge shotgun. How long can I continue hunting ducks with it? 


The simple answer is for as long as you like. *If you hunt waterfowl over open water, you will have to use non-toxic shot from 2021. The new rules will be phased in over four years to give game bird licence holders with sub-gauge shotguns like 20 gauges time to get accustomed to the change and make the transition to non-toxic shot. *For the first two seasons – 2018 and 2019 – hunters can use up their existing stocks of sub-gauge lead ammunition. *In 2020, if they are hunting waterfowl on Department of Conservation or Fish & Game controlled land, they will have to use non-toxic shot and nothing else. *From 2021, non-toxic shot will be required for waterfowl hunting over open water in all shotguns except the .410 on all lands, public and private._

Ok ... so a walk for quail with the dog means my ammo is still good to go ...

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## FatLabrador

Better invest in these https://m.ebay.com/itm/12-Gauge-to-4...oAAOSwi0xaH6qq sell them on tm for 3 times the price for 2021 season  :Zomg:

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## mikee

> _I use a 20 gauge shotgun. How long can I continue hunting ducks with it? 
> 
> 
> The simple answer is for as long as you like. *If you hunt waterfowl over open water, you will have to use non-toxic shot from 2021. The new rules will be phased in over four years to give game bird licence holders with sub-gauge shotguns like 20 gauges time to get accustomed to the change and make the transition to non-toxic shot. *For the first two seasons – 2018 and 2019 – hunters can use up their existing stocks of sub-gauge lead ammunition. *In 2020, if they are hunting waterfowl on Department of Conservation or Fish & Game controlled land, they will have to use non-toxic shot and nothing else. *From 2021, non-toxic shot will be required for waterfowl hunting over open water in all shotguns except the .410 on all lands, public and private._
> 
> Ok ... so a walk for quail with the dog means my ammo is still good to go ...


yep thats my interpretation just have to remember if you are down the rriver hunting quail don't shoot at the duck your dog puts up

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## johnd

I wonder how that goes if you are putting down a wounded bird, to ease its suffering. Or do you just walk on by ?

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## gsp follower

> I wonder how that goes if you are putting down a wounded bird, to ease its suffering. Or do you just walk on by ?


most rangers arent arseholes so i think you,d be ok

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