# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Another Hunter Killed

## Normie

Yet again. People need to be more careful.

Fatal Hunting Accident Near Rotorua - national | Stuff.co.nz

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## Rushy

Yeh Normie, just read it on the Herald website.  It is always tragic when something like this happens but this one sounds a bit dodgy as the police are talking to the guy that reported it but are looking for someone else that has done a runner.  I think we will find that there is more to this than initially reported.

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## Dougie

Far out, maybe I should stay home this weekend??  :Oh Noes:

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## Rushy

Where are you off to Dougie?

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## stingray

What are we doing wrong with our training of people in the use of firearms??

My young fella and his cobber both have just sat their firearms tickets...should this include a HUNT's course..should everyone be taken out into the scrub with an instructor and shown how to clearly identify their bloody target not sound not movement not colour? MAKE BLOODY SURE!!! Should they also be taken to a range to be taught how to safely handle a firearm and made to sit down at a range and shoot of a shit load of ammo to get the 'Rambo" (all new and exciting) urge out of em. I have done these things with both my lad and his mate.... The one thing I drilled into them is you CANNOT PUT THE BULLET BACK IN THE GUN!! 

I'm not bloody perfect but come on people this is not acceptable!! We as a hunting community have to do a shit load better and do it NOW.

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## mattdw

AOS are out looking for a guy. Also, word is that it might not be on public land. Area cordoned off too. Looks like a bit more than just 'failure to identify target'.

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## Savage1

Yep, they wouldn't have an armed cordon wearing ballistic armor if it was an accident. Unless the offender has done a runner.

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## 260rem

This is not good why is this happening

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## Dougie

Well said Stingray!!!

I was quite surprised when getting my ticket that I was not even required to HOLD a firearm? Wtf? Luckily for me I have had an AWESOME best mate who has taught me very good range ettiquette and also had y ears bleed with toets and safety info while in the army. 

It might be interesting to trace back how long ago and where these offenders have obtained their licences.

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## Rushy

I could well be very wrong but I absolutely think by the way the news articles are worded that there will be more to this and I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out not to be a "mistaken for an animal" hunting accident.  Still tragic whichever way it falls.

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## Dougie

> Where are you off to Dougie?


I'm getting a bit stir crazy and excited about a three day trip to Q town next week (hoping to get me some winning shots for that photo comp!) so I'm planning on a day walkies in the Rimutakas with my four legged boy.

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## Neckshot

Absolutely your rite, but apart from hunts courses and dads/mums training there young hunters themselves theres nothing but you tube.
Ive said before on here when you get your fire arms ticket it should include a practicle test with criticle passes and if you fail it no gun license.just like a car.

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## Dougie

> Absolutely your rite, but apart from hunts courses and dads/mums training there young hunters themselves theres nothing but you tube.
> Ive said before on here when you get your fire arms ticket it should include a practicle test with criticle passes and if you fail it no gun license.just like a car.


Reminds me of somewhere....I think both the instructors and students wear green..  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Neckshot

Whats it going to be like when my 8 year old wants to sit his license in 8 years time? will he be allowed, will the age go up! the gov is good at knee jerk reactions this is going to impact on him.We have to do something im an advocate of rifle safety so were do you start?. hopefully ive jumped the gun no pun intended.

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## Rushy

Neckshot I certainly agree that there needs to be a strong element of practical assessment in the firearms licensing regime and you are right on the money by drawing a parallel with driver licensing.  The difficulties that will attach to such a dramatic shift is the cost element (finding the money to fund the assessors and the assessment program) and the hue and cry that would come from the less safe among current license holders that would see the change as a threat to their continued ability to own firearms.  All of that aside, there would remain the issue of non licensed people in possession of firearms which again I would not be surprised to learn was involved in this recent tragedy.  If I was a betting man, reading between the lines in the article and considering the police reation, i would put ten bucks on the horse that says this has the undertone and flavour of someone protecting his patch.

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## baldbob

Tougher consequences....

5 years jail instead of a few months!!!!

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## Timmay

I don't agree on tougher sentences as that is trying to fix the issue after it happens and in the heat of the moment it won't stop anything. 

Better training is the key. Make everyone sit a practical

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## Munsey

I agree better training ! . And this needs to come from the hunting clubs/ associations etc. Why ? Is that if it doesn't gun laws will get tougher, affecting all of us . With out getting political, tougher licensing will prevale over education !. Wouldnt be a bad idea to make it compulsory to join a club for maybe a year ? I cant see why this would not work .

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## Rushy

There has just been an update on the Herald website and they are now saying that this is definitely another case of one hunter shooting his friend and the involvement of the AOS was merely because they were in the area on another matter at the time.  As we all seem to agree, these sorts of incidents should never occur and are dreadfully tragic when they do.  I for one would happily undergo a physical assessment requiring me to prove I can safely handle firearms and properly identify target animals to retain my firearms license.

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## scottrods

Condolences to the families of both parties.

My brother in law in Austria has to sit an exam on firearms safety, an exam on flora & fauna and an exam on animals & birds recognition. He has to do 18hrs practical on shotguns at a clay club and at a rifle range. He has to belong to a club - All this before he gets a licence. If drops club membership they by law have to notify the police and he'll lose his licence. It's pretty tight.

I would like to see attendence at a practical session such as a mini-hunts course a requirement. A club membership a bit impractical if you're a cocky in the backblocks, but would be a benefit.

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## Munsey

> Condolences to the families of both parties.My brother in law in Austria has to sit an exam on firearms safety, an exam on flora & fauna and an exam on animals & birds recognition. He has to do 18hrs practical on shotguns at a clay club and at a rifle range. He has to belong to a club - All this before he gets a licence. If drops club membership they by law have to notify the police and he'll lose his licence. It's pretty tight.I would like to see attendence at a practical session such as a mini-hunts course a requirement. A club membership a bit impractical if you're a cocky in the backblocks, but would be a benefit.


I still think a club membership could work for all , I'm not pointing the finger but have seen some very dodgy gun practices by farmers in the past . Where you expect they would be experts because of there exposure to guns from a young age.. This is where the experience comes into light again , if you have never had been taught safe gun practice , experience alone may not teach you gun safety?

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## Rushy

> experience alone may not teach you gun safety?


There is a great deal of wisdom in that Munsey.  I saw a sergeant put his boot up the arse of a baggy that was wildly spraying 9mm bullets out of an old Thompson sub machine gun in Brnham back in 72.  I bet that silly young bugger never forgot that safety message ever again.   Not advocating violence but affirmative training definitely works.

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## Bryan

Another unecessary loss of life.

I feel some sort firearms competency test neds to occur during the licence application process. I would prefer to see better education than stricter regulation of firearms.

When I was living in Canada I got a Canadian Firearms Licence and we had to do night courses going over legislation, rules regarding safety and use and learn how to safely handle/load/clear the different firearm action types commonly used by the general public (they had disabled examples of all the standard action/rifle types) . It was run by their version of mountain safety council and mandatory in order to get a licence. You sat both a written and practical test on the last night.

Cost was not too bad considering the information you got out of it and the cost included the Licence IIRC.

This will help all new firearms users (and current) to better understand all aspects of firearm handling/safety.

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## Bulltahr

Some sort of decent course should be compulsory, dunno about compolsory club membership tho, (There's none out there that would suit me)...................

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## Johno

Condolences to the families of both parties as well.

I would just like to say that I have only a few months ago had to renew my license after a few years over seas and had to do the full test. I have to say it does not give you a lot of confidence in the system when you have guys that have failed the test when they take it up to the instructor but the instructor talks the failed questions over them them and then just passes them. 

I noted one guy that must have incorrectly answer 10 out of the 30 and he did not look like a guy that you wanted to have a license, yet after the instructor talked the questions over with the person he was passed.

"WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING A TEST"  !!!!!!!!!!!

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## Gutshot

Why do the media call it a hunting accident. It makes us look bad. Headline should be firearms "accident" half the cu@ts with guns don't know how or even go hunting

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## lockee

+1 the test alone is a joke, they even go to the extent to say that they prefer people to pass so they have the basic concepts yet those that fail still pass after a chat, the question i have if they fail the test on basics yet still receive a pass how can they have the basic concepts down? The logistics of a change may be costly, but then what value do you put on a life that may be saved by having better trained/prepared individuals in the field.

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## crnkin

RIP dodzy.

Gutted, just gutted. No point having tougher sentencing for this type of thing.

Chris

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## R93

I would suggest compulsory military training in a teeth arms trade. If you fire your weapon in the military without following ROE's or correct instruction really bad things happen to you.
It may have got all touchy feely now tho and you just get a stern talking too.  :Grin: 

Na, I agree, a course of some description should be funded by the govt and run by suitably qualified instructors, either military or police with yrs of firearms training and hunting under their belt not just any old knob.

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## Dundee

All I will say is condolences too the family :Sad:    Otherwise I will upset to many.  RIP dude

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## veitnamcam

> All I will say is condolences too the family   Otherwise I will upset to many.  RIP dude


+ 1

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## Neckshot

Agreed, but unlicensed firearms is beyond our control becuase the cops cant even control it.But could the mountain safety council be buffed up? its the police who issue the lisence but thats were they stop.Ultimately it will all be governd by money but can someone tell me were the money goes from our gun lisence i e; what it pays for and shit like that.there are over 300 thou gun lisences arnt there?.I only get on this bandwagon becuase i take my boy with me and i have three more waiting at home wanting there turn, as a dad I want to know things are being done to atleast add a bit more safty out there aside from the practices that i already preach to him.

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## Neckshot

Like a fire lane! with deer targets, live rounds and then you add in the curve balls! like all the 7 rules in the arms code walk around one corner theres a deer 20m out from you but 20m behind the deer is a person(cut out) tell the guy if you see a deer shot it and then see what happns,If he shoots the deer FAIL.That is a rough example.

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## Twoshotkill

I completely disagree with the rule " Identify your target"..... Before you all jump on me with foul words hear me out.

This should be replaced with " identify what part of your target you are shooting at".......this makes people take a whole other step in there heads and im sure most people do.

Have you ever heard of a bow hunter shooting someone by accident???????
This is because they have to be very picky on where they can place the shot.
The way i see it if a deer (for example ) is shot in the hind quaters then what is the point of shooting it?? 80% of the meat is fucked!

People need to hound there fellow hunters who shoot any thing other than a head , neck or chest shot.. this make people hook harder at what and where they are shooting instead of just throwing lead in the direction untill it stops moving!

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## Lentil

Complacency is a dangerous thing around firearms. Just because someone uses a firearm constantly, does not make them a responsible user. How many hunting fatalities are caused by an experienced user - quite a few recently. From what i have read, many of the culprits have been absolutely convinced that they were shooting at a deer, and these guys have shot many deer. The brain can apparently draw on past experiences and convince you that what you see is a deer. Makes me shudder to think that it could happen to me and I could make the same mistake. My number one safeguard is to ALWAYS assume the noise/shape etc is human, until absolutely proven otherwise. I never want to be complacent and think I could never make the same mistake as those guys.
Don't mean to sound all ponsy on my first posting (new member), but this is as serious as it gets.

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## Twoshotkill

Welcome Lentil..... I always thaught lentils were bland ... you seem to be a bit more interesting!
But Totaly agree..  it is scary!!!

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## Lentil

Thanks oneshot. I fully endorse the shot placement principle. Just seeing an eye and maybe something that could be the neck and shooting is bloody stupid, but I bet it happens plenty of times. Might be correct 99 times, but number 100 ????
By the way, Lentils are pretty bland, but can surprise.

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## Twoshotkill

Papamoa.... i work there! Good to see BOP people here in force!

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## Clint Ruin

Bloody sad and mad about this. 

Dodzy was a man who lived his life to the full . I met him a few times over the years and he was always at full speed no matter what.

I see new license holders all the time .Some have done their homework and have an idea on what they want or have a mate to help them with the choice.
Others dont know the difference between a .22 and a .223 . We as a store try our best to get a new shooter to the range and at least get the rifle sighted in + show the basics of cleaning and care along with a range rules talk. 

More in depth training may help but adhering to the rules will help more.

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## CreepingDeath

Cant fucken believe this shits keeps happening . For some fucken venison. Wake up people , this literally was in my back yard . The access to the bush there was across my old farm. Ive taken my kids for walks in there , makes me feel fucken sick.

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## Whisper

Condolences to the family, such a waste.
Thoughts are also with the SAR guys, who have to camp out with him and who can't do what they do best - find and rescue people.

I reckon a HUNTS course should be a mandatory part of getting a FAL. It may be partly flawed but it's all we have.

We make learner drivers and restricted drivers pass tests and get supervised driving hours, why not hunters that can't demonstrate the equivalent hunting experience of a HUNTS course? 

My mantra is: 
1. I must be able to see ALL of the deer
2. I must be able to identify what type of deer it is - spiker, hind, Stag
3. I must be able to evaluate what is behind the deer for a safe firing zone

If i see an animal on the skyline - no shot

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## Savage1

Not sure a course would be overly effective unless run by the army who will punch people who fuk up so they learn from their mistakes. You need to do two practicals to get a car licence but plenty of people still drive like idiots.

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## el borracho

this problem will not stop!To many hunters are like newbee Chinese drivers but with a gun.
Its a hunters culture problem -even down to mountain safety officers  --people don't take the rules seriously,

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## FletchNZ

I wish all the money police spent on the arms amendment bill went towards a tv ad to remind people of the 7 firearms rules. If the shooter had seen a tv ad the night before similar to the car ones maybe it would have made him think twice before pulling the trigger.


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## Neckshot

That dosnt happen these days,they teach by repitition.The right people for the job can be anyone!so long as they believe in firearm safety thats all you need.

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## stingray

What am I going to do...

1st I'm going to sit Blake and Alex down again tonight and talk about this... It's mate shooting mates not some random guy shooting another hunter. These people knew there was another person on the hill that which makes it so dam much worse.

What am I going to tell them and myself ... STOP & THINK!!  what am I shooting at what part am I shooting head neck shoulder heart and if I dont bloody know dont shoot. Also that there is no place for bravado or muchco crap with hunting the "if its brown its down or if it fly it dies etc bull shit has no place in hunting.

That we all have to stop and think ..my mates is out there somewhere could this possibly be him.

No snap shots from rabbits ducks goats everything eithier let it go or a 100% shot.

I ask that we as a hunting community do the same 1000 of us with the same message, we can change laws etc but like drink driving speeding drugs etc laws mean bugger all to some ,so it becomes down to us and our attiude. I'm taking this message to my son & his best friend and myself so the we do not ever end up in this situation.. not hope and pray ,I am going to make  but make bloody sure that we won't.

As I've said I'm not perfect but what I can do is make sure 100%.

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## CreepingDeath

A tv add would be good. Get it to the masses. My kids cant learn a thing at school but stick it on tv and theyll have it memorised in minutes.

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## chux75

Guys, this article provides the most information currently available to the public that I have found so far on this latest accidental shooting. Shock after accidental hunting death - National - NZ Herald News

"We" need to rise to the "challenge" set by Tussock. 

One point I would make is that there is a big difference between knowing the 7 basic rules of firearm safety and actually practicing them correctly.

I think that a HUNTS course (based on articles I have read about peoples experience on them and on the premise and structure of the course) addresses the practical aspects of the "7 basics", but even then will that translate to the "real world" reality of hunting, 5 years later, with "buck fever' thrown in?

I naturally resist a call to "compulsory this or that", until there is evidence it will actually have a benefit.

Playing the devils advocate here, in the last 2 high profile bush shootings, the guy pulling the trigger is not who you would expect to make such a mistake.

#1. Christopher Dummer, a former president of the Wellington Deerstalkers' Association.
#2. Henry Worsp, an experienced hunter and fisherman who is known by the nickname "8-shot" and has more than 10 years' experience managing outdoor safety.

I believe good practical instruction on the "7 Basics", with scenario based teaching, is just ONE part of the solution. We also ALL need to practice the 7 Basics correctly, EVERY TIME we are around firearms.

This event has galvanised me to complete a HUNTS course as soon as I can.

Firearm safety starts with us. Knowing right from wrong is not enough, we need to practice the right way all the time, and ensure others around us do as well.

What do people think about a forum section devoted to firearm safety? I would envisage that it had a sticky with the seven basic rules and links to suitable literature on safely identifying your target. I would also suggest considering incorporating a HUNTS course calender with up coming courses and how to apply (obviously this would need to be agreed with by NZDA).

Finally, my thoughts on this latest shooting accident: 

This is a terrible accident, tragic for all involved and a spine tingling reminder that you can't be too careful, either behind the trigger or "in front of" the barrel.

I have sympathy for the guy who pulled the trigger. That would be my worst nightmare.

Be careful out there. Sounds like the hunting community lost a real good bloke. It doesn't need to loose anymore.

Cheers, Carl

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## Dougie

Carl, +1 about the safety section in the forum. Love it.

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## mucko

> Cant fucken believe this shits keeps happening . For some fucken venison. Wake up people , this literally was in my back yard . The access to the bush there was across my old farm. Ive taken my kids for walks in there , makes me feel fucken sick.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2c


Same here Creeping Death i am at the northern end of the reserve, were you down by Puaiti rd? i hunt up by the tower can get there through Mc Naulls Place but it is to steep for most people so pretty much have the place to myself, you get heaps of pig hunters along here pouching on Doc land, didnt sleep to good last night knowing i hunt this area and that just happened cant help but think what would happen to my wife and kids if i was shot while out getting a feed for the freezer, a hands on coarse for firearms licence holders is a must not one evening with the mountain safety council where you are given the answers. i would hate to see it end up restricted like your B cat licence. pop up targets in a safe bush setting with tagets of hunters in blaze orange and camo along with all your wild game targets with part animal targets. it always used to be the nonlicenced person was the demise of our sport through pinching our firearms to them using them on others, well the tide has turned now we are taking ourself out, and we will lose this privledge if we dont sort it out ourselfs. it is far to regular in the news now for it to be an accident.

everyone here gives a shit should we draft a training plan for firearms safety and bushcraft. train everyone in safe operation of a firearm and safe operation in a hunting enviroment along with bushsurvival. and send it on to the aproppriate people.

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## Spook

I think it is a waste of time making anyone join a club or attend safety courses until the very people who advocate these are stopped from killing our fellow hunters. The last two killings have been by people way up at the top...not newbie gunslingers.
The next time I go in the bush I am going to be wearing one of those flashing lights that cyclists use strapped to the back of my head...if some prick takes a shot at me, make sure you kill me because I'll gut shoot you if i get the chance.

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## CreepingDeath

> Same here Creeping Death i am at the northern end of the reserve, were you down by Puaiti rd? i hunt up by the tower can get there through Mc Naulls Place but it is to steep for most people so pretty much have the place to myself, you get heaps of pig hunters along here pouching on Doc land, didnt sleep to good last night knowing i hunt this area and that just happened cant help but think what would happen to my wife and kids if i was shot while out getting a feed for the freezer, a hands on coarse for firearms licence holders is a must not one evening with the mountain safety council where you are given the answers. i would hate to see it end up restricted like your B cat licence. pop up targets in a safe bush setting with tagets of hunters in blaze orange and camo along with all your wild game targets with part animal targets. it always used to be the nonlicenced person was the demise of our sport through pinching our firearms to them using them on others, well the tide has turned now we are taking ourself out, and we will lose this privledge if we dont sort it out ourselfs. it is far to regular in the news now for it to be an accident.
> 
> everyone here gives a shit should we draft a training plan for firearms safety and bushcraft. train everyone in safe operation of a firearm and safe operation in a hunting enviroment along with bushsurvival. and send it on to the aproppriate people.


The old maxwell.farm that boundries te kopia rd

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## Rushy

As tragic as all of this is, it is provoking alot of thought on the matter of better training for hunters.  For the entrepreneurial among you there is a business opportunity in amongst this.  It is just a matter of fleshing out the business plan, presenting it to the authorities for approval and piecing it together in a way that honours the unfortunate that have given rise to the need.

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## Dead is better

I dont think a compulsory hunting course is suitable for all shooters. Some of us will never hunt and only shoot targets, what benefit would they get? No this is stricktly a hunting license issue that may need to come into existance. 

Being that this seems to be a psychological effect of the activity of hunting - i see no way to just 'train' your way out of it. Perhaps the way forward is to employ more technology in the field. I mean Jumbo jet pilots dont rely on their eyes to prevent mid air disasters. They use early warning systems and gps etc. Maybe we all should wear an eprb type device that a monitoring station watches over the weekend. When one blip gets within 1 km of another, that blip gets sent a text message. Couldnt an automatic server be set up to produce a simple warning when this happens?

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## Sidney

I would just like to say ... the tone in general of the comments on here in relation to this tragedy seem reflective, concerned and empathetic, unlike some of the circus idiots venting elsewhere... :Sad: 

I believe the issues raised need our thoughts and require information sharing but calls for deterrent sentencing which can never work, and disturbing attitudes towards the unfortunate shooter have no place in public forums.

We have a lot more interest in Hunting and shooting than was around 20 years ago.  Young people getting into it possibly don't have the traditional role models, that supposedly modelled appropriate behaviours for them, because of perhaps a missing generation of hunters from that time...

Some consideration for training may be necessary prior to the granting of DOC hunting permits, dealing with the specific risks and proceedures that are necessary for bush hunting where other people may be present.  Maybe some periodic refresher as part of a club system would be a good thing.

I am usually the last person to suggest more beauraucracy for anything, but quite frankly I feel these accidents like a physical blow and it just makes me feel sick..

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## Dougie

> but quite frankly I feel these accidents like a physical blow and *it just makes me feel sick*..


Isn't it shit that we have to talk about this sort of thing, that is has happened in the first place  :Sad:  (and twice so recently)

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## Neckshot

true true dougie,im taking my boy for a hunt for the weeknd next week Im not letting him miss out,you can only do for you and your family.there will be some talented people out there who will make these wishes off working to prevent these acc from happening come to fruition.Mean while im gonna do more hunting than i have to post more in the hunting threads!.

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## roig

Agreed more training, thing is I feel it won't stop all the killing but just cut back on them. Trouble is no matter what we are taught there will always be mistakes. We all know what its like when you have been stalking around and then "holy shit" movement. Just in case you are wondering I always take care and identify my target beyond a doubt. We folks out there are made of all different types of DNA make up so what works in someones head may not work in others. The rules can be drummed in to you but it only takes one mistake to ruin a lot of peoples lives. So more involved training, refresher courses annually, tougher sentencing laws. Unless we take more care we are going to end up in the shit, no guns, extremely hard rules and worst of all more deaths.  Rest in peace James Dodds, hunters and mountain bikers communities are thinking of you and your family.

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## Kakaramea

This is a tragedy. Our thoughts are with the families and friends. 
I know the bloke who got shot is a really good bloke though I have never met him. 
I do know the shooter and he is an experienced hunter, a bloke with a really good level head on his shoulders; he works in the field of rescue and safety and first aid training; and is a paramedic too. This is quite out of character for him to make such a misjudgement.......he must be going through hell. 

I agree to more training. This is happening too often of late. 

Heading out for a hunt with a mate today; we are talking about the plan; we will stick to the plan; and will not shoot in the direction of the other -i.e if we follow a ridge line the right shooter will never shoot to the left and visa versa - even if an animal runs from right to left across the right shooters path. 
Thought needs to be given as to where will this bullet go if I miss this animal too.

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## Dougie

> This is a tragedy. Our thoughts are with the families and friends. 
> I know the bloke who got shot is a really good bloke though I have never met him. 
> I do know the shooter and he is an experienced hunter, a bloke with a really good level head on his shoulders; he works in the field of rescue and safety and first aid training; and is a paramedic too. This is quite out of character for him to make such a misjudgement.......he must be going through hell. 
> 
> I agree to more training. This is happening too often of late. 
> 
> Heading out for a hunt with a mate today; we are talking about the plan; we will stick to the plan; and will not shoot in the direction of the other -i.e if we follow a ridge line the right shooter will never shoot to the left and visa versa - even if an animal runs from right to left across the right shooters path. 
> *Thought needs to be given as to where will this bullet go if I miss this animal too*.


Good on you dude.

Having this a second nature is called _experience._

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## mucko

> This is a tragedy. Our thoughts are with the families and friends. 
> I know the bloke who got shot is a really good bloke though I have never met him. 
> I do know the shooter and he is an experienced hunter, a bloke with a really good level head on his shoulders; he works in the field of rescue and safety and first aid training; and is a paramedic too. This is quite out of character for him to make such a misjudgement.......he must be going through hell. 
> 
> I agree to more training. This is happening too often of late. 
> 
> Heading out for a hunt with a mate today; we are talking about the plan; we will stick to the plan; and will not shoot in the direction of the other -i.e if we follow a ridge line the right shooter will never shoot to the left and visa versa - even if an animal runs from right to left across the right shooters path. 
> Thought needs to be given as to where will this bullet go if I miss this animal too.


I hear you there, he is in a bad way, they live a couple of doors down from us our wifes know each other though school and my oldest boy plays with his son they are in the same class at school. a truly lovely man that will never ever be the same i know he will have all the support from the community.

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## Spook

I wish people would stop using the words "experienced hunter" when discussing a fuck wit that enters the bush armed and dangerous.

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## sakokid

pretty sad all round. really there is no need for it to happen just ID your target every time and make sure that is wot u want to shoot. thats all you need to do. so easy.

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## Kakaramea

Spook the Point here is this guy isn't just a fuckwit with a gun.




> I wish people would stop using the words "experienced hunter" when discussing a fuck wit that enters the bush armed and dangerous.

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## Spook

> Spook the Point here is this guy isn't just a fuckwit with a gun.


Then what is he...he has a nick name of "8 shot" [or something like that], I, for one would be interested in knowing why...sounds like some 'lead in the air" type...would have been over the moon, albiet for a very short time, to have finally got a "one shot kill"...or did he clobber his mate with a mag full...I am pleased the bastard will no longer be a danger to other hunters.

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## Tentman

We all need to be very clear about this – ANY hunter can make a mistake that can and frequently is fatal to another human.

How can this happen – well it’s our brain interpreting our senses incorrectly.

The easiest way of understanding how it can happen to ANY OF US is to consider why pilots need instruments for flying in cloud or at night. No matter how experienced the pilot, the sensory information being conveyed to their brain is open to misinterpretation. A pilot understands this and their training is to absolutely rely on the instruments – it took a lot of deaths to gain this understanding !!

ALL Hunters MUST understand that the they are capable of making a mistake (of misinterpreting the data) – no matter how experienced they may be – that’s because we don’t have an “instrument” to rely on, only our understanding of our own weakness, and that understanding can prompt us to re-evaluate.

If you are not convinced by the pilot example, exactly the same thing happens to sailors - both amateurs and professionals, they mis-time lights, they hit rocks clearly marked on charts (and chart plotters), because they trust their senses instead of their instruments.

This is the reason I actually feel in more danger (when hunting) when I see many of the comments in these sorts of discussions “it will never happen to me” – my first though is - oh yes it will, and you’d better understand how and why, or it may indeed be you pulling the trigger !!

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## lockee

There is actually a recognized psychological phenom revolving around the inability of the human mind to correctly process all the senses simultaneously and/or notice environmental changes, when this is coupled with divided attention, tiredness or any number of contributing factors accidents happen. 
The mind is surprisingly easy confused and sees or doesn't see what it wants to fill in the blanks.

 In no way am i justifying any miss identification but it shows the importance of double and triple checking targets and the importance of being focused as it is amazing what can be missed when your not paying full attention (refer the link for an example)
selective attention test - YouTube!

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## Snala

I still can't see how more training is going a make any difference when the hunters doing the shootings are quoted as saying they were 100% sure they were shooting a deer?
Maybe be proactive and look at it the other way around and protect yourself rather than relying on others. Make it compulsory to cover yourself, more than a hat, in dayglo/blaze when bush hunting, like it is overseas. Sounds dumb but the flashing LED idea would probably work too if it didn't scare game away, not many deer wear those. Sure its a bit more cost but any of these solutions are going to cost something cause knowing what's right and doing the same isn't obviously working. 
Eyesight testing possibly should be part of the licensing system too. It's relatively important to be able to see when shooting isn't it?

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## Lentil

[_QUOTE=Dead is better;40352]I dont think a compulsory hunting course is suitable for all shooters. Some of us will never hunt and only shoot targets, what benefit would they get? No this is stricktly a hunting license issue that may need to come into existance. 

Being that this seems to be a psychological effect of the activity of hunting - i see no way to just 'train' your way out of it. Perhaps the way forward is to employ more technology in the field. I mean Jumbo jet pilots dont rely on their eyes to prevent mid air disasters. They use early warning systems and gps etc. Maybe we all should wear an eprb type device that a monitoring station watches over the weekend. When one blip gets within 1 km of another, that blip gets sent a text message. Couldnt an automatic server be set up to produce a simple warning when this happens?[/QUOTE]_



I thought about this several years ago, but it would require 100% compliance. Some idiots would start shooting at anything that didn't "bleep"

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## Lentil

Totally agree Tentman. As I said in my earlier post - complacency is a dangerous thing. We all need to be aware that it has happened to other very experienced hunters, and it can happen to any one of us. I get fully blazed up these days, and recent magazine articles appear to show that I am more concealed from deer in my blaze orange, than someone else in brown/green camo gear. I also believe that just an orange beanie is not enough, and in low light, could be seen as a bit of light shining on a red's summer coat.
Some mates think that the blaze clothing is perpetrated by retailers, but I'm willing to glow in the dark to save my arse. I'm not a good enough bush stalker anyway - so if you see an orange glow overlooking a slip - don't shoot!

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## outdoorlad

Approx 300,000 FAL holders in NZ, if we were levied $10 a year that's 3mil that could go towards safety, education, practical training, etc

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## bigreddog

Firstly, my thoughts, prayers and condolences for the families of those affected.

I know Henry personally and have always admired his character and professionalism.
Henry is one of the most qualified instructors I know of and a specialist in the field of safety management. His manner is always intelligent, thorough, and humble. 

One of my mentors in the outdoors industry introduced me to the concept of Confirmation Bias  the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions. List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since then I have read a lot on reasons people make wrong calls and can tell you that this is a complex field. The call to identify your target really needs a lot more explanation of what may happen in your head. Studies done on the best of the best air force pilots found that even their minds can play tricks on them leading to not see landing warning signs correctly, or to incorrectly identify friendly personnel as enemies. (eg Deep Survival by L Gonzales)
Applying this to hunting the best advice Ive heard is asking is that a person rather than is that a deer as this will help your bias toward the safe option.

My main thoughts on this tragedy is that if people at this level of expertise and experience can make these mistakes, then no one is immune from this mistake happening to them. We should carry that reminder with us each time we hunt.

And we should continue to be humble in our own estimation of our abilities

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## sakokid

I totally agree with lentil. i blaze up every time, reduce the risk as much as you can. that stony creek blaze is great hunters shouild be able to see you for a mile. anyone shoots you while wearing blaze should be locked up for a very long time thats for sure.

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## jim160

Thats a fair comment about the blaze orange, yet it apparently can be mistaken for a deer at 16m with a scope.  Unfortunately there are people out there that will shoot at the first thing they see, rather than think it could be a person.  It appears as though when we go hunting we not only have to look for deer to shoot, but we have to look for some stupid wanker that wants to shoot us thinking we are a deer.

Unfortunately it isnt the first and it wont be the last.  Everyone has to be safe with the thought in the back of you mind, who else is in here and what are their intentions or how excited are they.  Have never hunted the roar, and never will as it is far too dangerous.

Everyone be safe and cautious of who may be around.

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## john m

Henry Worsp 6 MONTHS HOME DETENTION and 250 hrs COMMUNITY WORK.
James Dodds __________________________________________________  _____________________________RIP.
If only everybody would totally identify there targets beyond any doubt. We will all be safer out there doing what we love and return to our families at the end of a hunt.

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## leathel

> Henry Worsp 6 MONTHS HOME DETENTION and 250 hrs COMMUNITY WORK.
> James Dodds __________________________________________________  _____________________________RIP.
> If only everybody would totally identify there targets beyond any doubt. We will all be safer out there doing what we love and return to our families at the end of a hunt.


Absolutely.... but also those going hunting think about what you wear... I know it shouldn't matter you should ID 100% but your brain can play tricks and if you go fallow hunting in a brown and black top half and are crouching I am sure you go a long way to looking like a deer :/ 

Be safe and dont dress in deer colours, plenty of the olive brown gear looks way to close for my liking  :Zomg:

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## Fisherman

I'm always amazed that so many dont seem to be able to accept that "good guys" get it wrong. 
The answer could be a including training about how the human mind can see what it wants to see. It could be a fun and educational part of getting a licence.

All the rest..tougher sentences(they dont deter people who want to hurt someone) practical tests etc could be distractions from the issue.

I dont really know about blaze orange. I'm totally color blind and dont see what you see...blue is going to be safest around me.

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## Rushy

> .blue is going to be safest around me.


I agree Fisherman.  Blue sticks out like the proverbial hairy dogs nuts and is very alien and obvious in the green and brown of the hunting domain.

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## Toby

When I was doing the MSC part for my FAL the he said blue is the best color to wear.

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## leathel

> I'm always amazed that so many dont seem to be able to accept that "good guys" get it wrong. 
> The answer could be a including training about how the human mind can see what it wants to see. It could be a fun and educational part of getting a licence.
> 
> All the rest..tougher sentences(they dont deter people who want to hurt someone) practical tests etc could be distractions from the issue.
> 
> I dont really know about blaze orange. I'm totally color blind and dont see what you see...blue is going to be safest around me.


Very well put and I think the I will never do that attitude stinks and is half the cause.....if you doubt your eyes and brain surely everyone is safer as when it plays tricks on you you will doubt the brain and second guess it!

 If you are so sure about yourself you may end up like so many other "I will never do that" people in court and a charge ....

I have the benefit to have had a discussion with a mate that swore black and blue he had a deer in his scope pulled the gun down then back up and it wasn't there..... went over and no tracks. He was positive it was a deer but it was just a collection of ferns and trees the resembled a deer, second look and they didn't even resemble a deer that well. He took the second look and is not one to squeeze the trigger at the drop of a hat.... if he was a snap shooter type and there was a hunter in the middle of those twigs....well you don't want to think about it  :Sad:

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## Dougie

I like the current campain of holgram images - look from one angle and it's a deer, look from another and it's a guy walking or a hunter sitting having his lunch, there's also one where it's a dude walking out with deer on his back. Quite effective in my opinion.

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## Ryan

I personally wouldn't wear blue, especially in low light conditions.

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## Rushy

> I like the current campain of holgram images - look from one angle and it's a deer, look from another and it's a guy walking or a hunter sitting having his lunch, there's also one where it's a dude walking out with deer on his back. Quite effective in my opinion.


Huh.  Share?

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## leathel

> I personally wouldn't wear blue, especially in low light conditions.


Why is that? 

I have been wearing blue for ages and the others I hunt recon its always easy to spot me.... Including one that is colour blind  :Wink:

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## Ryan

OK, of course there are different types of blue but to me, blue = dark. Dark + low light = bad.





> Why is that? 
> 
> I have been wearing blue for ages and the others I hunt recon its always easy to spot me.... Including one that is colour blind

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## Dougie

Peacekeeper blue is what lethal is probably talking about. Good stuff that  :Thumbsup: 

Rushy I don't really know how to explain it any more than that....I have seen posters and little cards that are the two images layed over each other. Do you sort of know what I mean??

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## Ryan

Makes sense I guess.

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## Rushy

> Peacekeeper blue is what lethal is probably talking about. Good stuff that 
> 
> Rushy I don't really know how to explain it any more than that....I have seen posters and little cards that are the two images layed over each other. Do you sort of know what I mean??


Yes but never hunting / accident related.  where did you see them?

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## Dougie

> Yes but never hunting / accident related.  where did you see them?


MSC

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## mucko

> OK, of course there are different types of blue but to me, blue = dark. Dark + low light = bad.


i have seen the early morning and evening sun light up the bush blaze orange i have never seen the sun light up the bush blue.

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## Dundee

> I like the current campain of holgram images - look from one angle and it's a deer, look from another and it's a guy walking or a hunter sitting having his lunch, there's also one where it's a dude walking out with deer on his back. Quite effective in my opinion.



I have seen them too also a drink one when the car gets smashed

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## Ryan

> i have seen the early morning and evening sun light up the bush blaze orange i have never seen the sun light up the bush blue.


Not all sunrises and sunsets occur with no cloud and everything conveniently illuminated for you to distinguish colour. This is New Zealand. I refer you to my previous point regarding low light conditions.




> Makes sense I guess.


I also take this back - after thinking about it, powder blue or "peace keeper" blue will appear as grey under LL conditions. In my opinion, in this country if you really want to stick out - your best colour to wear is highlighter pink.

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## Dundee

Heres a pic from Savage showing the blaze orange in NZ bush, hope you don't mind me sharing as its been on here before but I think its worth showing again.

Help me out here Savage  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: I can't find it now :Grin:

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## Happy

> Heres a pic from Savage showing the blaze orange in NZ bush, hope you don't mind me sharing as its been on here before but I think its worth showing again.
> 
> Help me out here Savage I can't find it now


Ha ha sorry that could be construed as a fail. I'm sure you'll get away with it somehow ?

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## Dundee

yep I failed it was leathals photo
 :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:  :Grin:

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## mucko

> Not all sunrises and sunsets occur with no cloud and everything conveniently illuminated for you to distinguish colour. This is New Zealand. I refer you to my previous point regarding low light conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> I also take this back - after thinking about it, powder blue or "peace keeper" blue will appear as grey under LL conditions. In my opinion, in this country if you really want to stick out - your best colour to wear is highlighter pink.


if you cant see blue from black in low light conditions do you really think you should even consider pulling the trigger, surely you would not be clearly identifing your target.

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## Ryan

> if you cant see blue from black in low light conditions do you really think you should even consider pulling the trigger, surely you would not be clearly identifing your target.


Mucko - I'm talking about being visible to *other* hunters.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Dougie

I think staying home is the best option.... :rolleyes:

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## mucko

> Mucko - I'm talking about being visible to *other* hunters.


EXACTLY MY POINT. BLUE IS A CONTRASTING COLOUR TO THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT. IF YOU CANT SEE IT THEN IT'S TO DARK AND YOU SHOULD NOT BE PULLING THE TRIGGER. IS THERE REALLY ANY OTHER POINT TO BE MADE HERE. 

IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU JUST WANT TO WIND PEOPLE UP OR YOUR SAYING YOUR PREPARED TO SHOOT WHEN IT'S TO DARK TO IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET. WHICH IS IT

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## Maca49

Not good for me I'm colour blind so would see blue as either green or brown,doh I wouldn't see blue at all? Also cannot see fluorences just plain old orange or green to me. I chase the road workers with my car cause they just don't stand out. Better wear silver or gold I can see that!

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## mucko

> Not good for me I'm colour blind so would see blue as either green or brown,doh I wouldn't see blue at all? Also cannot see fluorences just plain old orange or green to me. I chase the road workers with my car cause they just don't stand out. Better wear silver or gold I can see that!


INTERSTING POINT. so for you what colour other then gold or silver is best seen in the bush and how do you find the colours on the change of light. obviously you can tell the difference between game and people and you clearly identify your target. it would be good to know your thoughts as most statments seam to be made by those of us not colour blind. as we are all about being safe in the bush.

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## Fisherman

Maybe being color blind makes us safer. Color is not a tool I use to find fish or deer...makes the job harder for sure. I have to find the animal without that clue...shape, outline and movement while mates watching the same area are drawn to color.

I believe 20% of men are color blind in some degree? I'm profoundly color blind but see blue well.

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## Dougie

Does anyone here actually wear a full suit of the same colour though? Like *Fisherman* said, colour is only one of many tools to identify an object. Trees are brown, so are deer. Nobody sits out in the bush and shoots everything brown until one happens to be a deer and not a tree, that would be ridiculous.

It seems these days it's your mate that is hunting with you that is out to shoot you, so why not ask him if he is colour blind before you leave and dress to suit....blaze shirt with peacekeeper hat or *Maca's* favorite, gold and silver gimp suit.

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## Rushy

And don't forget the Liberace sequins Dougie.

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## Dundee

> I like the current campain of holgram images - look from one angle and it's a deer, look from another and it's a guy walking or a hunter sitting having his lunch, there's also one where it's a dude walking out with deer on his back. Quite effective in my opinion.



I have seen them too also a drink one when the car gets smashed

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## Ryan

> i have seen the early morning and evening sun light up the bush blaze orange i have never seen the sun light up the bush blue.


Not all sunrises and sunsets occur with no cloud and everything conveniently illuminated for you to distinguish colour. This is New Zealand. I refer you to my previous point regarding low light conditions.




> Makes sense I guess.


I also take this back - after thinking about it, powder blue or "peace keeper" blue will appear as grey under LL conditions. In my opinion, in this country if you really want to stick out - your best colour to wear is highlighter pink.

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## Dundee

Heres a pic from Savage showing the blaze orange in NZ bush, hope you don't mind me sharing as its been on here before but I think its worth showing again.

Help me out here Savage  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: I can't find it now :Grin:

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## Happy

> Heres a pic from Savage showing the blaze orange in NZ bush, hope you don't mind me sharing as its been on here before but I think its worth showing again.
> 
> Help me out here Savage I can't find it now


Ha ha sorry that could be construed as a fail. I'm sure you'll get away with it somehow ?

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## Dundee

yep I failed it was leathals photo
 :Yaeh Am Not Durnk:  :Grin:

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## mucko

> Not all sunrises and sunsets occur with no cloud and everything conveniently illuminated for you to distinguish colour. This is New Zealand. I refer you to my previous point regarding low light conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> I also take this back - after thinking about it, powder blue or "peace keeper" blue will appear as grey under LL conditions. In my opinion, in this country if you really want to stick out - your best colour to wear is highlighter pink.


if you cant see blue from black in low light conditions do you really think you should even consider pulling the trigger, surely you would not be clearly identifing your target.

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## Ryan

> if you cant see blue from black in low light conditions do you really think you should even consider pulling the trigger, surely you would not be clearly identifing your target.


Mucko - I'm talking about being visible to *other* hunters.  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Dougie

I think staying home is the best option.... :rolleyes:

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## mucko

> Mucko - I'm talking about being visible to *other* hunters.


EXACTLY MY POINT. BLUE IS A CONTRASTING COLOUR TO THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT. IF YOU CANT SEE IT THEN IT'S TO DARK AND YOU SHOULD NOT BE PULLING THE TRIGGER. IS THERE REALLY ANY OTHER POINT TO BE MADE HERE. 

IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU JUST WANT TO WIND PEOPLE UP OR YOUR SAYING YOUR PREPARED TO SHOOT WHEN IT'S TO DARK TO IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET. WHICH IS IT

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## Maca49

Not good for me I'm colour blind so would see blue as either green or brown,doh I wouldn't see blue at all? Also cannot see fluorences just plain old orange or green to me. I chase the road workers with my car cause they just don't stand out. Better wear silver or gold I can see that!

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## mucko

> Not good for me I'm colour blind so would see blue as either green or brown,doh I wouldn't see blue at all? Also cannot see fluorences just plain old orange or green to me. I chase the road workers with my car cause they just don't stand out. Better wear silver or gold I can see that!


INTERSTING POINT. so for you what colour other then gold or silver is best seen in the bush and how do you find the colours on the change of light. obviously you can tell the difference between game and people and you clearly identify your target. it would be good to know your thoughts as most statments seam to be made by those of us not colour blind. as we are all about being safe in the bush.

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## Fisherman

Maybe being color blind makes us safer. Color is not a tool I use to find fish or deer...makes the job harder for sure. I have to find the animal without that clue...shape, outline and movement while mates watching the same area are drawn to color.

I believe 20% of men are color blind in some degree? I'm profoundly color blind but see blue well.

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## Dougie

Does anyone here actually wear a full suit of the same colour though? Like *Fisherman* said, colour is only one of many tools to identify an object. Trees are brown, so are deer. Nobody sits out in the bush and shoots everything brown until one happens to be a deer and not a tree, that would be ridiculous.

It seems these days it's your mate that is hunting with you that is out to shoot you, so why not ask him if he is colour blind before you leave and dress to suit....blaze shirt with peacekeeper hat or *Maca's* favorite, gold and silver gimp suit.

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## Rushy

And don't forget the Liberace sequins Dougie.

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