# Firearms and Shooting > Reloading and Ballistics >  anealing service

## bully

im just wondering if there is an anealing service in new zealand.
as in send your brass and money in, and get your brass anealed back. ?

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## puku

Yea that would be an awesome service

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## P38

Or you could save your self all the bother and some cash and just do this

Annealing Brass in HD - YouTube

Or This

Annealing/It's not all that complicated - YouTube

Or you could go High Tech and buy or build one of these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy6OwiuWV7A

Cheers
Pete

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## scoped

Hell its not hard as P38 says, i use a 1/4 adapter with a 10mm 1/4" deep socket. ( or whatever fits your case) and put in the drill chuck, then rotate while being heated with a propane torch

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## tui_man2

> Or you could save your self all the bother and some cash and just do this
> 
> Annealing Brass in HD - YouTube
> 
> Or This
> 
> Annealing/It's not all that complicated - YouTube
> 
> Or you could go High Tech and buy or build one of these.
> ...


Because why you can do it yourself they will be all inconsistent so may as well not even do it. Unless you have odd ball cals that you have to fire form or form in forming dies its not worth the effort. I'm most cases the case will be stuffed before then or the price of new brass makes it pointless just get new stuff

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## tui_man2

> Lots of reasons to do it. It is a good idea and it will extend your brass life. 
> 
> The characteristics of your case will change throughout its life span, but that could be mitigated by annealing.


I know that I was meaning there is no half arsed way. Either do it right all timed the same or don't do it all all. Neck tension will be all different from case to case by hand so may as well not bother. . . . . Is easier way to put it 

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## PerazziSC3

yeah i agree with tuiman, the methods ive seem dont seem very scientific, which doesnt seem to go hand in hand with the whole point of reloading, to be precise and measured about everything. But it obviously works for people so meh

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## bully

i was thinking of one of the expensive machines that do it all in a professional manner.
i had a feeling dead eye dick had one. but maybe they just sold the machine once, i dont know.

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## Maca49

Just need to know your colours? And control heat and time? Experience

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## P38

> Just need to know your colours? And control heat and time? Experience


Your onto it Maca.

Your eye is your best tool, watching the colours run and counting to four still works for me.

Tui_man2
Does your new brasscome with the Neck/Shoulder already annealed?

I would be interested to know how much inconsistency you have experienced or measured using any of the above methods.

Here's another method which is precise, confirmed with Tempilaq. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3Ln5ZdCyz8

And pretty simple too.

Cheers
Pete

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## tui_man2

> Your onto it Maca.
> 
> Your eye is your best tool, watching the colours run and counting to four still works for me.
> 
> Tui_man2
> Does your new brasscome with the Neck/Shoulder already annealed?
> 
> I would be interested to know how much inconsistency you have experienced or measured using any of the above methods.
> 
> ...


Still has error but if not shooting far then it wont matter anyway.

Lapua is as good as it gets an it comes annealed ready to load 
Doing it by had is to hit an miss

I have made an are making 4 machines like my one but smaller an nice, i do think it is good to do but have to do it right an all timed the same, an for bigger odd ball cases i have to anneal in the forming stages to work the brass easier

then once all that effort it done i try to keep them good an anneal every 3rd firing to get them all the SAME consistancy.
Found by hand i would have un explained fliers witch LR you dont want.

There are a few machines out there that people would happy pay to do your brass, I would do it but its the sort of thing i would wait till i had a few to make it worth while to do

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## tui_man2

> I'm inclined to think that annealing by a slow bake rather than a blowtorch will work better.
> 
> Your trying to remove defects, any uneven heat distributions will create new defects in the form of grain size contrasts in your neck and shoulder which will lead to at best, uneven stretch and at worst failure.


So you would rather anneal the whole case? That's why you don't need to do it. Or all your brass will be going to the scrap man:rolleyes:

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## scoped

No annealing slowly is bad. You want to only heat the neck and small surrounding area. The more of the case you heat , the softer the rest of the case will get and you dont want the base getting too soft. If you look at lapua brass and how much they are annealed that would be a good guide.

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## P38

Tui_man2

I haven't noticed any inconsistancy using the drill method to anneal my brass, But then I dont shoot long range either.

I especially like to anneal my 25-20wcf brass about every 6 or 7 firings as it's getting hard to get new.
The last batch I bought new was Remmington Brass and not annealed, case length varied a bit too and need trimming.

Which type of annealing machine are you building?

I like the simplicity of the last one I posted and for most needs I'm sure will be accurate enough.

I'm going to build one shortly ... not because I need one but just because I can.

Any excuse to spend an hour or two in the machine shop is a good enough excuse for me.

Cheers
Pete

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## TeRei

Annealing is the best kept secret in reloading. Wonderful how you can resurrect hard brass. Cant understand why people throw away good brass. Possibly because they are lazy or are scared of the hype surrounding this mysterious art.

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## Maca49

A water bath heat, case in,neck out,treat nice straw colour,push over? Annealed, Easy, but I only shoot BP so no real pressure or shock, plenty of heat and corrosion, the bastards still split if I don't

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## Maca49

> You probably dont need to push them over, just let them cool slow.


Push them over and you don't burn yourself!

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## scoped

Thats interesting putting them in the oven. havent heard of that before. But how do you keep the water cool?! To me annealing over a 'longer' period is just asking for trouble if you cant keep the bottom cool enough. But i mean , i reloaded some cases this afternoon, annealing was done and cases cooled in 5 minutes ready to continue. The other thing is how do you heat around the case evenly if they are all standing up in a water tray? Also pushing a hot case over into the water, might mean that one side of the case cools faster than the other.

If i remember rightly, the brass has to get to or reach a certain temperature for it to anneal which i think is why people use temperature indicating fluid for this (You can use a similar method to anneal work hardened aluminuim using the soot from an acetylene torch). And you want to do that without annealing the rest of the case. Also if you get the brass too hot, it will be just as bad for case life as over work hardened brass

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## redbang

What would be a reasonable price to pay for an annealing service, per x100 say ? ?

Thoughts anybody. . . .?

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## Maca49

You could do it commercially with a variable speed conveyor, even heat source and a spray cooll,is there a business op here?

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## Maca49

Courier would make all the money?

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## scoped

its not worth it really, buy a few tools etc and youre sorted forever!

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## Maca49

> its not worth it really, buy a few tools etc and youre sorted forever!


Yep that's my thought as well, but there some" uncoordinated "people out there, I know from the questions I get in my bus

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## TeRei

> You need to protect the rest of the case from the heat, in a bath with cooling liquid.
> 
> Annealing slowly is fine. Believe it or not, cases anneal at room temperature. Just very very slowly. Work hardening is a process where the metal is deformed, and defects accumulate in its crystal structure. In order for metal to stretch smoothly, it needs a nice, homogenous crystal structure, where each atom can slide past the adjacent atoms unimpeded. The defects from deformation (work) created gaps etc where that impede that smooth slide. These correct themselves over time, as the brass goes back to its preferred structure, but its very slow. 
> 
> You can speed up that healing process by heating the metal up. This opens up the crystal structure and lets everything relax back to where it wants to be faster. Fast or slow, the end result is the same. No more defects, and soft, homogenous metal. 5 seconds at 500 degrees or 5 minutes at 150 degrees, same result (I made those numbers up but you get the idea).
> 
> Because it would be more even, my preference would be slow annealing in an even heat, like an oven. Then there is no hot spot like with a blow torch. 
> 
> The you just have to keep the lower part of the case cool. For that you can use a water bath. 
> ...


Not sure you are correct on annealing all the case including the web and over a long time. There is a report on this and I will try to locate it again.

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## TeRei

Look at this for an analysis about all case annealing. Scroll down the paragraph headed OVER ANNEALING /UNDER ANNEALING.

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## TeRei

Sorry forgot to include link

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

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## steven

I can appreciate that if you are not an engineer / techy you have not done anealing in tech but really its pretty easy once you have looked at it. I dont think you can get it to wrong, interesting that mil brass is usually (always?) anealed, they even glue often?

Which leads me to, I had a chat to an experienced reloader & shooter over the weekend, he shoots mil now rather than palma so I dnt think he's as closed lipped as others. Anyway, He seemed to think that neck tension was one of the biggest factors in accuracy. Which suggests to me anealing is important, plus consistant wall thickness, and concentricity, which points me at better quality brass. So prep and care in this area would be where to spend the time by the sound of it.  He likes Lee kit a lot except for the chamfer tool, buy something better.  Thinks the "better" competition stuff is a rip off.  

thoughts?

My one is buy the Lee 50th kit and the lyman vld tool...spend the money saved on a better scope or shooting.

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## gimp

I like the idea of running sane pressures so primer pockets aren't ruined, minimally sizing, and annealing after every so many firings to make my expensive brass last forever

However I don't actually do it as it's too much effort compared to emailing Belmont for more

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## TeRei

> I like the idea of running sane pressures so primer pockets aren't ruined, minimally sizing, and annealing after every so many firings to make my expensive brass last forever
> 
> However I don't actually do it as it's too much effort compared to emailing Belmont for more


How is it too much effort? Drill, propane torch ,socket/adaptor. 5 seconds for 223.

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## Normie

I bought the Lee and the only thing from it I use is the press and powder thrower. I only use the thrower cause it's easy and the press because I can't afford to upgrade yet.

If doing it again I wouldn't buy a kit. I'd get a good press, a set of good digital scales with trickler and all the other accessories all seperately. Plus a load data manual.

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## gimp

> How is it too much effort? Drill, propane torch ,socket/adaptor. 5 seconds for 223.


I'm hell of lazy at brass prep and after the ~10-12 firings my brass lasts for it's basically cost nothing anyway

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## tui_man2

> I'm hell of lazy at brass prep and after the ~10-12 firings my brass lasts for it's basically cost nothing anyway


Like you in most cases its the easier way to be when its getting say get new brass
Only odd ball cases make it really worth while an in the forming stages

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## Maca49

Try 577/450 brass at about $10.00 a case if you can find it. 45/70 about $2.00 I hate losing one

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## gimp

I'm paying $2.20 ish each for 6.5x47

So over ~10 firings it's 22c. I guess if I annealed and say, doubled the brass life (total guess with my nice safe pressure load, not damaging case head/primer pocket - which remains to be seen longer term so far but my old load was loosening them up quite a bit in ~5 firings, also only minimally sizing) I could theoretically save ~$660-880 on brass cost over the life of a barrel (guessing at 3000-4000 rounds) which literally almost pays for a new barrel + fitting.

When my current batch of brass gets there maybe I'll give it a go, worst that can happen is that I have to throw out a heap of brass I was going to toss anyway if it does give inconsistent results

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## Spanners

A couple of us went through the exercise of pricing it a couple of years ago
Long story short, NZ Shooters in general, are too tight to pay for a automated, repeatable and accurate annealing of brass - at 10c a piece you would have to do 10k pieces to even pay for the gear and gas let alone labour or turn a profit.
Noone works for free - especially not me!  :Have A Nice Day: 

I designed and started building a machine about 4 years ago - gave up when I found exactly what I wanted to buy.
2 years later, and I still cant get one off the bloody Sepo...

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## Bagheera

I would go for paying someone with the equipment and a standard process if it is available.

The hand methods I've read about all look pretty hit and miss to me.

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## Wirehunt

Fuck me, it's just annealing, it's not rocket science to get everything even.

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## gimp

Yes, what's the worst that happens if you don't? You've ruined some already ruined brass. Good job, try harder next time.

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## steven

> I like the idea of running sane pressures so primer pockets aren't ruined, minimally sizing, and annealing after every so many firings to make my expensive brass last forever
> 
> However I don't actually do it as it's too much effort compared to emailing Belmont for more


If you have brass you cant be bothered reloading send unwanted 303, 308, 7.62x39 and 54R my way...all gratefully excepted by the poorish...ie me.

;]

PS primers seem to be getting endangered....    :Sad: 

regards

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## gimp

> If you have brass you cant be bothered reloading send unwanted 303, 308, 7.62x39 and 54R my way...all gratefully excepted by the poorish...ie me.
> 
> ;]
> 
> PS primers seem to be getting endangered....   
> 
> regards


Sorry, I don't own terrible calibres.

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## gimp

Yes primers are going to be in short supply here soon as local supplies dry up and the US ban panic effect from 4 months ago starts to hit us. I've got a few thousand stashed so that'll do me for the moment. Buy everything in bulk, before there is an anticipated shortage. Keeps your price down and you don't run out.

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## P38

> Yes primers are going to be in short supply here soon as local supplies dry up and the US ban panic effect from 4 months ago starts to hit us. I've got a few thousand stashed so that'll do me for the moment. Buy everything in bulk, before there is an anticipated shortage. Keeps your price down and you don't run out.


Gimp

Thats exactly why there is shortage.

It's a tail spin effect

People buying in bulk for fear of running out for whatever reason.

Sellers reorder in even greater bulk thinking there's an increase in demand = an increase in profits to be made.

Maunfacturers unable to keep pace with demand creating a real shortage

Panicking people to buy even more and so on.

I got several thousand stashed too.

Buggered if I'm going to miss out.  :Wink: 

Cheers
Pete

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## gimp

> Gimp
> 
> Thats exactly why there is shortage.
> 
> It's a tail spin effect
> 
> People buying in bulk for fear of running out for whatever reason.
> 
> Sellers reorder in even greater bulk thinking there's an increase in demand = an increase in profits to be made.
> ...


Only when everyone buys at once, because of BANPANIC or whatever. I always buy in bulk for cheapness, haven't bought primers in like 2 years, bought several thousand. Same with .22 ammo, just bought 10k rounds of subs in December, 40% cheaper

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## Wirehunt

Depending on the block that would last me around 1-2 months gimp.

If I can't see 30-40G sitting there it's a shortage.

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## steven

> Only when everyone buys at once, because of BANPANIC or whatever. I always buy in bulk for cheapness, haven't bought primers in like 2 years, bought several thousand. Same with .22 ammo, just bought 10k rounds of subs in December, 40% cheaper


What did you pay and what for and where?

Im thinking of buyung at least 5k of 22LR...if there is a decent discount for 10k I'd do that.

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## gimp

I bought it from my local H&F as they offered the best discount for the bulk. Organised a group buy on here and got 25,000 rounds for various people. Really have to keep a group buy pretty local as the stuff costs a fortune to ship

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## tui_man2

Some that I have started for a mate 6.5 284 fired 4 times left, cleaned, annealed an neck sized right.

It's by all means easy to do by hand but if you want neck tensions right for out a wee way there is only one way, the proper way

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## Wirehunt

What do you call the proper way TM2?

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## tui_man2

> What do you call the proper way TM2?


Even heat, even time, so they are all the same an even given if you have it a little differnt each time in set up etc it wont matter if you do it as a batch.

Doing it by hand you can be dirrerent times slightly, different lengths from the flames.

My set up witch ill put up when i have the nicer on the eye model made as mine was tried everyway i could, ill but up a vid, its all on adjustble timers for bigger or smaller cases, 2 flames with 3rd for the bigger cases an when the case hits the beating point on the frame it goes onto another spinner so the case spins to get even heat around the case.

As you can see from the photo they are all very much the same i could put the 300 cases up an they will all look like that.

Like spanners said earlier its not really worth doing it what would you chrage?

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## Wirehunt

They way this lot seem to be talking HEAPS.

Old school method worked well for years, I don't know why people all of a sudden think it doesn't work.

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## tui_man2

> They way this lot seem to be talking HEAPS.
> 
> Old school method worked well for years, I don't know why people all of a sudden think it doesn't work.


It works mate an will extend you life of brass. but past 4-500m expect fliers an erratic groups with un even neck tension, is what im meaning.
Its easy to do, i would happy do it but wont be for free an it wouldnt be worth my while when i could be doing other things

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## Spanners

> They way this lot seem to be talking HEAPS.
> 
> Old school method worked well for years, I don't know why people all of a sudden think it doesn't work.


Why use a rangefinder and a scope that can dial when open sights and holdover has worked for HUNDREDS of year

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## Wirehunt

But that's behind the times Spanners.  Are you living in the dark ages?  338 and Linux is where it's at.

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## P38

> Why use a rangefinder and a scope that can dial when open sights and holdover has worked for HUNDREDS of year


I still use this method when shooting my 110yr old Winchester 

Works for me  :Have A Nice Day:

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## RUNAS

Scary opinions on here about annealing.
Ive been using a twin gas torch setup with 750F Templaq for years, works perfectly.
Longest and worse part of annealing is cleaning the brass first.

Ive thought about offering a service but I just know that if the brass needed to be cleaned to a certain standard before I would do it, it wouldnt be done, Id end up doing it and I'll beat that people would moan their asses off because I charged them for cleaning the brass, I repeat the longest and worse  part of annealing brass cases is cleaning them.

RUNAS

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## SIKAHUNTER

> I still use this method when shooting my 110yr old Winchester 
> 
> Works for me


LOL...is that the one you used on the Taruarau shoot Pete?

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## P38

> LOL...is that the one you used on the Taruarau shoot Pete?


Sure is  :Have A Nice Day: 

Did you notice how I was the only one shooting with iron sights ...... and I still didn't finish last.  :Thumbsup: 

My plan is to take out High Score honours this year  :Have A Nice Day: 

cheers
Pete

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## P38

> My annealing jig is coming along nicely.


What type of design did you settle on Tussock?

I'd be keen to see some pics once your done.

Cheers
Pete

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## tui_man2

> Using the timed blowtorch approach but with a water cooled alloy heat sink to keep the base cool. Rotating with the drill. The heat sink will also keep all the cases at the same point in the flame and at the same angle. Slow, one case at a time, but it should be consistent and safe.


Be good to see how they come up, you going to do the lot or do a batch and test them?

Here's some more I'm doing at moment have 300 down 200 to go, then the forming of shoulder forward. The ones that are not colored the same, I mark them an separate and they become the 300m bush load 


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## TeRei

> Scary opinions on here about annealing.
> Ive been using a twin gas torch setup with 750F Templaq for years, works perfectly.
> Longest and worse part of annealing is cleaning the brass first.
> 
> Ive thought about offering a service but I just know that if the brass needed to be cleaned to a certain standard before I would do it, it wouldnt be done, Id end up doing it and I'll beat that people would moan their asses off because I charged them for cleaning the brass, I repeat the longest and worse  part of annealing brass cases is cleaning them.
> 
> RUNAS


Called SSM cleaning. The only thing you will complain about is how shiny they are.

Found can do 100,223 in an hour and they are better than new i.e. dont overload and get maxi out of your soap and Lemishine.

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## TeRei

> Yes primers are going to be in short supply here soon as local supplies dry up and the US ban panic effect from 4 months ago starts to hit us. I've got a few thousand stashed so that'll do me for the moment. Buy everything in bulk, before there is an anticipated shortage. Keeps your price down and you don't run out.


Always the witty cost accountant. :Thumbsup:

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## TeRei

> Fuck me, it's just annealing, it's not rocket science to get everything even.


This presumes as Wirehunt says and it has been debated before i.e. the finest brass, the finest primers , the finest powder[all loaded in a vacuum sealed room to avoid contamination] the finest projectile [each measured and weighed] but the Houston boys seem to put some of those myths to bed. The sad result is that componentry is then dependent on the absolute perfect detonation and travel from the shooter with its widely variable element called the human finger.

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## veitnamcam

Your all over thinking this, just heat the neck and shoulder red hot and they will all be exactly the same.... Stuffed!  :Grin: 

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## tui_man2

How you get on Tussock?

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## Maca49

> My heat sink is done and sitting on the bench waiting to fire up. I'm in Wellington at the moment but when I'm home it's top priority.
> 
> It looks like it's going to be extremely labor intensive. It fits nicely, I cut the guide hole with my reamer, and it has a stopper so the case ends up in exactly the same place each time, and there is good contact with the heat sink, so the base should be well protected. I will just run a constant RPM and a timer, and maybe get some of that thermometer paint to check my temp is correct. So it's in the same spot each time.
> 
> That's where the fun ends. It will be a matter of cleaning each case individually I think, and fitting it to the drill one at a time. I'm prepared for a long tedious process. Once they are all done, I will go back to just prepping what I shoot and doing small runs, a lot less painful and tolerable for the volumes I run.
> 
> LOVING the steel cased .223 ammo. Thousands of rounds on the shelf and I just grab some and shoot it and I don't look for cases!


So with steel wtf are we discussing annealing for? Problem solved yahoo'

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## TeRei

> Yes primers are going to be in short supply here soon as local supplies dry up and the US ban panic effect from 4 months ago starts to hit us. I've got a few thousand stashed so that'll do me for the moment. Buy everything in bulk, before there is an anticipated shortage. Keeps your price down and you don't run out.


Always the witty cost accountant. :Thumbsup:

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## TeRei

> Fuck me, it's just annealing, it's not rocket science to get everything even.


This presumes as Wirehunt says and it has been debated before i.e. the finest brass, the finest primers , the finest powder[all loaded in a vacuum sealed room to avoid contamination] the finest projectile [each measured and weighed] but the Houston boys seem to put some of those myths to bed. The sad result is that componentry is then dependent on the absolute perfect detonation and travel from the shooter with its widely variable element called the human finger.

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## veitnamcam

Your all over thinking this, just heat the neck and shoulder red hot and they will all be exactly the same.... Stuffed!  :Grin: 

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## tui_man2

How you get on Tussock?

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## Maca49

> My heat sink is done and sitting on the bench waiting to fire up. I'm in Wellington at the moment but when I'm home it's top priority.
> 
> It looks like it's going to be extremely labor intensive. It fits nicely, I cut the guide hole with my reamer, and it has a stopper so the case ends up in exactly the same place each time, and there is good contact with the heat sink, so the base should be well protected. I will just run a constant RPM and a timer, and maybe get some of that thermometer paint to check my temp is correct. So it's in the same spot each time.
> 
> That's where the fun ends. It will be a matter of cleaning each case individually I think, and fitting it to the drill one at a time. I'm prepared for a long tedious process. Once they are all done, I will go back to just prepping what I shoot and doing small runs, a lot less painful and tolerable for the volumes I run.
> 
> LOVING the steel cased .223 ammo. Thousands of rounds on the shelf and I just grab some and shoot it and I don't look for cases!


So with steel wtf are we discussing annealing for? Problem solved yahoo'

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