# Hunting > Firearm Safety >  Firearms in Vehicles

## 7RMBoy

Hey team,

Got a question for the more educated;

What are the laws around leaving a firearm unattended in a vehicle? 

For example im on my way to the range and need to stop at the shops and leave the rifle in the locked truck?

Or a more extreme example of a mate and I go hunting, both bring a rifle and then decide we only want to take 1 with us. Can we leave the rifle in the car if we take the bolt for it with us?

Please advice, 

cheers,

7RMBoy

----------


## Cyclops

From the Arms Code (2013) 
https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/def...-code-2013.pdf

_



			
				Car
  You may not leave a firearm in an unattended vehicle. 
    Unattended means no-one is in,  near or able to watch the vehicle.
 If possible,  make the firearm inoperable e.g.  by taking out the bolt. 
  You cannot drive a vehicle on a road with a loaded firearm. 
   This includes the magazine  it must be empty.
 Even on private property it is dangerous to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle, 
   or to get in or out of the vehicle with a loaded firearm. 
  Be careful when moving your firearm in or out of a vehicle.  
   Treat it as loaded.  Do not point it at yourself or at anyone else.  
   Do not pull it towards you by the muzzle.
			
		

_ 

That's the official version. 
*The law is an arse.*

How well will it work if you need to go to the bank (or cafe) on your long trip?
You take your firearms soft or hard case with you. 
The bank won't let you in. 
Nek minute the AOS come racing around the corner .....

A practical, but illegal solution is to always take your bolt(s) with you when you leave the vehicle. 
Then, at least, you're leaving an inoperative firearm in the locked vehicle. Cover/hide the firearm too.

----------


## 7RMBoy

> From the Arms Code (2013) 
> https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/def...-code-2013.pdf


So where they say “if possible, make the firearm inoperable” does that mean you ‘can’ leave it unattended if i take the bolt with me? Or is it just a blanket no? Seems to contradict itself there

----------


## bigbear

just a blanket no. not even meant to leave a vehicle and go in to a public toilet.

----------


## Cyclops

> So where they say “if possible, make the firearm inoperable” does that mean you ‘can’ leave it unattended if i take the bolt with me? Or is it just a blanket no? Seems to contradict itself there


No. 




> _Car
> • You may not leave a firearm in an unattended vehicle.
> ‘Unattended’ means no-one is in, near or able to watch the vehicle.
> _


Though it may or may not be what many practical firearm owners do.

----------


## 7RMBoy

Cheers for that guys. Guess the law doesn’t make practical sense as often as it should

----------


## Mr Browning

> Car
> • You may not leave a firearm in an unattended vehicle.
> ‘Unattended’ means no-one is in, near or able to watch the vehicle.
> • If possible, make the firearm inoperable e.g. by taking out the bolt.
> • You cannot drive a vehicle on a road with a loaded firearm.
> This includes the magazine – it must be empty.
> • Even on private property it is dangerous to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle,
> or to get in or out of the vehicle with a loaded firearm.
> • Be careful when moving your firearm in or out of a vehicle.
> ...


I wonder how many of these the police actually break this on a daily basis.

Sadly, this is a load of bollocks and leaves shooters/hunters with no choice but to potentially break the law. You cant leave it unattended, yet you cant take it with you, what a load of bollocks, just shows these clowns who make the law really have no fucking common sense.

----------


## Cigar

You would have to be pretty dumb to leave a rifle in a vehicle while you went hunting, I heard of two hunters vehicles broken into on Sunday, parked beside a major highway, and only a couple of km from where I parked on Friday. You would get no sympathy from the police, or from me.

----------


## 7RMBoy

Not saying it’s been done mate, just a hypothetical situation on the legality of it. But i hear you, wouldn’t be something i’d do

----------


## 40mm

Take it with you, in a bag.

----------


## Ingrid 51

I asked the Police about leaving firearms in my vehicle whilst walking thru Local botanical gardens. Response was just dont go too far away. FFS! My solution is to hard case the rifle and tow it behind me in one of those shopping trundlers little old ladies use. I use the same rig for transporting up to three hard cases from car park down to range at local TECT facility. Works a treat and Im old enough to shrug off the sniggers. Paid $2 for the brand new trundler at garage sale.

----------


## Finnwolf

> From the Arms Code (2013) 
> https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/def...-code-2013.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> That's the official version. 
> *The law is an arse.*
> 
> How well will it work if you need to go to the bank (or cafe) on your long trip?
> ...


The way the law is written it seems to to have taken into account Finnwolfs, Bergaras etc...bolts indeed!

----------


## 40mm

> I asked the Police about leaving firearms in my vehicle whilst walking thru Local botanical gardens. Response was “just don’t go too far away.” FFS! My solution is to hard case the rifle and tow it behind me in one of those shopping trundlers little old ladies use. I use the same rig for transporting up to three hard cases from car park down to range at local TECT facility. Works a treat and I’m old enough to shrug off the sniggers. Paid $2 for the brand new trundler at garage sale.



Put musical instrument stickers all over your hard case.
It will look like a keyboard case etc.

And don't take any advice or instruction from the police unless it is in writing and signed/dated etc.

----------


## MB

This aspect of the law is a total pain in the arse. There have been a few threads about it recently. Not sure what they do in other countries.

----------


## Maca49

If it don't work,it don't work. It's a joke and mature fwits make laws like this? At times I have to secure my firearms in the back of a ute, I have no choice, when there is four or five of them and some in their own cases! I can't fix stupid? I just do my best :Cool:

----------


## Maca49

> This aspect of the law is a total pain in the arse. There have been a few threads about it recently. Not sure what they do in other countries.


They carry them in the states, either open or concealed haha

----------


## Nugget connaisseur

When i had my AR15 and was on a hunting trip and ended up going out for tea. I brought it into the restaurant broken down in a backpack, left the ammo and bolt in the car. 
That's the one good side of a takedown rifle i guess. Just dont go toilet and leave the backpack there.

Toying with the idea of swapping out my T3 308 for a takedown bergara for similar reason. But no real gain apart from a few more grams.

----------


## norsk

> This aspect of the law is a total pain in the arse. There have been a few threads about it recently. Not sure what they do in other countries.


Norway:

If you remove a part vital to the firearms operation it ceases to be a firearm.So just take the bolt/slide/forearm off it and take it with you.

If you have an approved gunsafe bolted to your car,you can leave assembled firearms in it.

----------


## Moa Hunter

Consider how a Judge would view the case of firearms in a vehicle if it was brought before them.
If the owner had taken all practical steps to stow their firearms in a way that meant they could not be removed easily from the vehicle and misused and had stowed their firearms in the same manner as the Police themselves do in vehicles I think the case would be dismissed.
That means a lock box, a cable lock through the action, chamber flag and ideally disabled firearm with bolt removed. Not hard to make a carpet lined lockbox from 20mm ply.
I carry firearms in a vehicle with a cable lock, chamber flag and bolt removed. What happens if there is a Police checkpoint for a nut job with a firearm or I am involved in an accident and Police have to clear the scene ?

----------


## 10-Ring

It's not hard, just use common sense. If you have to make an urgent toilet stop or catch a maggot pack, make sure your vehicle is locked and the firearm out of sight and as a precaution take the bolt with you if it's a bolt action. You could also inform the cashier, if it's a petrol station to keep an eye on your vehicle.

----------


## MB

A farmer I know always carries his .308 on the back seat of his truck. He went down to Auckland for the first time in 20 years or something. Left the rifle in it's usual place, thinking nothing of it. Inevitably his car got broken in to overnight. They stole everything apart from the .308. Silly bugger!

----------


## MB

> Consider how a Judge would view the case of firearms in a vehicle if it was brought before them.
> If the owner had taken all practical steps to stow their firearms in a way that meant they could not be removed easily from the vehicle and misused and had stowed their firearms in the same manner as the Police themselves do in vehicles I think the case would be dismissed.
> That means a lock box, a cable lock through the action, chamber flag and ideally disabled firearm with bolt removed. Not hard to make a carpet lined lockbox from 20mm ply.
> I carry firearms in a vehicle with a cable lock, chamber flag and bolt removed. What happens if there is a Police checkpoint for a nut job with a firearm or I am involved in an accident and Police have to clear the scene ?


You're probably right, but I would rather avoid being up before a judge in the first place.

----------


## MB

> It's not hard, just use common sense. If you have to make an urgent toilet stop or catch a maggot pack, make sure your vehicle is locked and the firearm out of sight and as a precaution take the bolt with you if it's a bolt action. You could also inform the cashier, if it's a petrol station to keep an eye on your vehicle.


It's not hard if you're just driving to/from your hunting trip, but if you're doing a road trip or doing the campervan thing with bit of hunting thrown in, it gets more complicated.

----------


## 10-Ring

A lot of people have a secure firearms lockup in their caravans and campervans.

----------


## Shadowsol

has disappointed the wife a few times when I have said nah sorry cant do that, cant leave the car - If we're off hunting normally only stop at a servo or cafe that I can park in front of with sight of the car. Ensure nothing left in plain sight etc etc

I am looking for a 4x4 hunting wagon of some variety - I will likely install a lockup in that - If your rifle is unloaded, disabled and secured to the same standard as required at home I cant see you being in trouble for that.

----------


## Steve123

> has disappointed the wife a few times when I have said nah sorry cant do that, cant leave the car - If we're off hunting normally only stop at a servo or cafe that I can park in front of with sight of the car. Ensure nothing left in plain sight etc etc
> 
> I am looking for a 4x4 hunting wagon of some variety - I will likely install a lockup in that - If your rifle is unloaded, disabled and secured to the same standard as required at home I cant see you being in trouble for that.


Worst part is now days it's illegal to leave someone in the car while you go for piss unless they have a licence.

----------


## Kiwi Sapper

> ........................*The law is an arse.*
> 
> How well will it work if you need to go to the bank (or cafe) on your long trip?
> You take your firearms soft or hard case with you. 
> The bank won't let you in. 
> Nek minute the AOS come racing around the corner .....


Perhaps not. 

Today, I took my 1900's 12 gauge hammer, rolled wire barreled shotgun to the gunsmith for his opinion on safety for firing. I had expected to leave it with him but he did the task on the spot and I had to take it away....which was a little inconvenient as supermarket shopping was next on my "to do list".

I decided not to leave it in the car, nor go home and then return to the Countdown supermarket,  so slung the gun inside the padded bag diagonally across my back and wheeled the trolley around, completed the shopping, did the check out after waiting in queue, had a discussion with check out supervisor re undercharging and all  with no "looks" or questions.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Perhaps not. 
> 
> Today, I took my 1900's 12 gauge hammer, rolled wire barreled shotgun to the gunsmith for his opinion on safety for firing. I had expected to leave it with him but he did the task on the spot and I had to take it away....which was a little inconvenient as supermarket shopping was next on my "to do list".
> 
> I decided not to leave it in the car, nor go home and then return to the Countdown supermarket,  so slung the gun inside the padded bag diagonally across my back and wheeled the trolley around, completed the shopping, did the check out after waiting in queue, had a discussion with check out supervisor re undercharging and all  with no "looks" or questions.
> 
> Attachment 159144


All good and well you didn't get stopped, but for me I will have a visible cable lock and chamber flag 'when I take a gun to town' as well as the gun bag. Better that than being in the wrong place at the wrong time say during an AOS response and getting a 'black mark' for carrying a complete firearm that could be stolen from your person while you are bent over checking the cucumbers.

----------


## BSA

"Thou Shalt Not Leave Firearms In An Unattended Vehicle".
So says NZ's Arms Code. Is it legislated in Law or a directive from those who administer the NZ Arms Code. I daresay if it was to reach a Courtroom a Judge would adjudicate on circumstances. ie What constitutes an "Unattended" vehicle. The best analogy is the Richard Lincoln case whereby he carried his Firearm(s) into a public toilet rather than leave them in an unattended vehicle as per the letter of the "Code". A complaint was made, Lincoln was arrested by Police Officers ignorant of the Law/Code but after much ado was dismissed in a Court of Law, incidentally after much obfuscation, delivery of false testimony, and outright lying by the Police Officers involved. It is a very interesting case to read. I assume this will have to be tried again given the new legislation coming into effect from 24/12/2020. Remember folks 95% of NZ Police Officers are completely ignorant of the Laws they are paid to enforce. Read the Rules and know your Rights and be prepared for a world of grief if you happen to be the "Guinea Pig" in another test case.

----------


## Ftx325

> Perhaps not. 
> 
> Today, I took my 1900's 12 gauge hammer, rolled wire barreled shotgun to the gunsmith for his opinion on safety for firing. I had expected to leave it with him but he did the task on the spot and I had to take it away....which was a little inconvenient as supermarket shopping was next on my "to do list".
> 
> I decided not to leave it in the car, nor go home and then return to the Countdown supermarket,  so slung the gun inside the padded bag diagonally across my back and wheeled the trolley around, completed the shopping, did the check out after waiting in queue, had a discussion with check out supervisor re undercharging and all  with no "looks" or questions.
> 
> Attachment 159144


That could be a useful side effect of a large chunk of the general public not knowing one end of a firearm from the other. As long as it is in a case they may not recognise it for what it is and get in a panic expecting lead to start flying .

Any one know of a guitar case going cheap ?      :Pacman:

----------


## MB

My Bergara is 80cm fully assembled. Short enough not to draw attention. Broken down, you could take it anywhere. It's a shame I have to conceal it as if I'm doing something wrong, but that's the way things are now.

----------


## Ground Control

Out of sight in a locked pelican case in locked vehicle  , bolt comes with me if I leave the vehicle to go into shop etc .
That doesn’t mean I would leave it overnight etc , just for short periods away from the car .

----------


## Micky Duck

good luck getting past the great big black dog sitting in car with rifle.......and even better luck doing so without me hearing the screams as she takes hunk out of arm....wife n I pretty good at taking turns waiting in wagon if we have bangstick onboard....

----------


## #the creeper

> You would have to be pretty dumb to leave a rifle in a vehicle while you went hunting, I heard of two hunters vehicles broken into on Sunday, parked beside a major highway, and only a couple of km from where I parked on Friday. You would get no sympathy from the police, or from me.


Hey Cigar, rough region or on which highway.....not looking for info on ya spot

----------


## Cigar

> Hey Cigar, rough region or on which highway.....not looking for info on ya spot


Kaimai summit, SH29

----------


## Kiwi Sapper

> That could be a useful side effect of a large chunk of the general public not knowing one end of a firearm from the other. As long as it is in a case they may not recognise it for what it is and get in a panic expecting lead to start flying .
> 
> Any one know of a guitar case going cheap ?


SHITt.....You gotta "Chicago Piano"?

----------


## Kiwi Sapper

> All good and well you didn't get stopped, but for me I will have a visible cable lock and chamber flag 'when I take a gun to town' as well as the gun bag. Better that than being in the wrong place at the wrong time say during an AOS response and getting a 'black mark' for carrying a complete firearm that could be stolen from your person while you are bent over checking the cucumbers.



If you read my post again you may  see that i wrote " slung the gun inside the padded bag diagonally across my back.

Cucumbers or grapes, I suspect that I would be aware of anyone trying to remove it from me.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> If you read my post again you may  see that i wrote " slung the gun inside the padded bag diagonally across my back.
> 
> Cucumbers or grapes, I suspect that I would be aware of anyone trying to remove it from me.


I didnt miss the gunbag. I would like to know what would happen if you were stopped by the Police, who then asked to see the firearm. I am sure that would of shrunk your zucchini and grapes. Do you have acceptable legal cause to carry it in the fruit and vege dept ?? Is it carried in a manner that prevents it being used if stolen etc etc.
We all know the law is an ass but that doesnt excuse us from acting in a sensible way and leaving the firearms securely locked to a structure in the car with a part removed. If it was me, with a shotgun I would of taken the barrels with me in the gunbag and left the rest locked and covered in the car

----------


## Cordite

> From the Arms Code (2013) 
> https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/def...-code-2013.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> That's the official version. 
> *The law is an arse.*
> 
> How well will it work if you need to go to the bank (or cafe) on your long trip?
> ...

----------


## Moa Hunter

> 


Thanks for posting link Cordite. Under offenses 'Carrying or possessing a firearm without a lawful, proper and sufficient purpose' Is hunting organic Broccoli in the supermarket 'proper and sufficient purpose' ? This is written in a way that Police have some discretion. The Police I know would take a dim view of firearms being carried into ordinary shops and not consider the purpose sufficient.
Lets all be sensible and keep our noses clean. Build a lock box for your vehicle

----------


## gadgetman

> Thanks for posting link Cordite. Under offenses 'Carrying or possessing a firearm without a lawful, proper and sufficient purpose' Is hunting organic Broccoli in the supermarket 'proper and sufficient purpose' ? This is written in a way that Police have some discretion. The Police I know would take a dim view of firearms being carried into ordinary shops and not consider the purpose sufficient.
> Lets all be sensible and keep our noses clean. Build a lock box for your vehicle


Carrying to avoid breaking the specific law of leaving it in an unattended vehicle must be considered a lawful reason. That is the inference of the specific law.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Carrying to avoid breaking the specific law of leaving it in an unattended vehicle must be considered a lawful reason. That is the inference of the specific law.


Well Billy Joe, I have a song for you and Cordite and Kiwi Sapper https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rc...tr3xT_-g3LdWJV

----------


## Cordite

> "Thou Shalt Not Leave Firearms In An Unattended Vehicle".
> So says NZ's Arms Code. Is it legislated in Law or a directive from those who administer the NZ Arms Code. I daresay if it was to reach a Courtroom a Judge would adjudicate on circumstances. ie What constitutes an "Unattended" vehicle. The best analogy is the Richard Lincoln case whereby he carried his Firearm(s) into a public toilet rather than leave them in an unattended vehicle as per the letter of the "Code". A complaint was made, Lincoln was arrested by Police Officers ignorant of the Law/Code but after much ado was dismissed in a Court of Law, incidentally after much obfuscation, delivery of false testimony, and outright lying by the Police Officers involved. It is a very interesting case to read. I assume this will have to be tried again given the new legislation coming into effect from 24/12/2020. Remember folks 95% of NZ Police Officers are completely ignorant of the Laws they are paid to enforce. Read the Rules and know your Rights and be prepared for a world of grief if you happen to be the "Guinea Pig" in another test case.


My take in this case is that it was a certainty Lincoln would get the AOS called on himself, since he carried the slung semi in and out of, first a petrol station shop, and then secondly in and out of the public toilet, in Palmerston I think.  Left plenty time for a police response and they caught up with him somewhere South of Christchurch.  And he proved in court that the law is an ass and in the process demonstrated that cops lie and fabricate evidence. Police would of course only do that to people they've already determined are bad, so we are all safe-as-in-China from such happening to ourselves.

As it is, law society is a law to themselves, it is a private club, and they did not want to admit him in part based on this stunt, so what is legal is not necessarily OK for your career.  One law degree wasted, and one man with study debts he can't pay.  Don't hear much about RL these days, maybe he is keeping his head down sweeping the floors in some lawyer's office hoping to get in with the Law Society's good graces again.  Freedom of speech, even if perfectly legitimate, does not apply to everyone.

----------


## MB

> Lets all be sensible and keep our noses clean. Build a lock box for your vehicle


It's sensible for sure, but not legal.

----------


## Mohawk .308

> Consider how a Judge would view the case of firearms in a vehicle if it was brought before them.
> If the owner had taken all practical steps to stow their firearms in a way that meant they could not be removed easily from the vehicle and misused and had stowed their firearms in the same manner as the Police themselves do in vehicles I think the case would be dismissed.
> That means a lock box, a cable lock through the action, chamber flag and ideally disabled firearm with bolt removed. Not hard to make a carpet lined lockbox from 20mm ply.
> I carry firearms in a vehicle with a cable lock, chamber flag and bolt removed. What happens if there is a Police checkpoint for a nut job with a firearm or I am involved in an accident and Police have to clear the scene ?


I like the look of these (if you have a Ute)

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00...g?v=1609822459

----------


## gadgetman

> Well Billy Joe, I have a song for you and Cordite and Kiwi Sapper https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rc...tr3xT_-g3LdWJV


Since the law is so specific any reasonable person must conclude that taking the firearm with you is the only legal option. Avoiding breaking such a specific law must be considered reasonable reason.

I think the only way to get better laws is for Police to be tied up wasting a lot of time and effort with people obeying stupid laws. Police seem to be driving a lot of law changes nowadays so give them incentive to improve things.

----------


## gadgetman

> My take in this case is that it was a certainty Lincoln would get the AOS called on himself, since he carried the slung semi in and out of, first a petrol station shop, and then secondly in and out of the public toilet, in Palmerston I think.  Left plenty time for a police response and they caught up with him somewhere South of Christchurch.  And he proved in court that the law is an ass and in the process demonstrated that cops lie and fabricate evidence. Police would of course only do that to people they've already determined are bad, so we are all safe-as-in-China from such happening to ourselves.
> 
> As it is, law society is a law to themselves, it is a private club, and they did not want to admit him in part based on this stunt, so what is legal is not necessarily OK for your career.  One law degree wasted, and one man with study debts he can't pay.  Don't hear much about RL these days, maybe he is keeping his head down sweeping the floors in some lawyer's office hoping to get in with the Law Society's good graces again.  Freedom of speech, even if perfectly legitimate, does not apply to everyone.


One of the big things was they obtained a search warrant on the grounds of Lincoln appearing in a poor mental state (without qualifications to do so), yet they deemed him fit enough to answer questions.

----------


## Danger Mouse

> One of the big things was they obtained a search warrant on the grounds of Lincoln appearing in a poor mental state (without qualifications to do so), yet they deemed him fit enough to answer questions.


The judge slammed the cops in that case. I'm pretty sure two got done for perjury

----------


## Danger Mouse

https://www.saviorequipment.com/prod...15946694688858

----------


## Cordite

> https://www.saviorequipment.com/prod...15946694688858




Thanks for the link to the above image.  Wonder if they also sell that rifle with serbian or cyrilic tipp ex scribbles on it.  Yes, I know, bad taste.

Anyway, best is a base guitar case, it will accommodate all rifles, even a full length Type 38, though not with its bayonet attached.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Since the law is so specific any reasonable person must conclude that taking the firearm with you is the only legal option. Avoiding breaking such a specific law must be considered reasonable reason.
> 
> I think the only way to get better laws is for Police to be tied up wasting a lot of time and effort with people obeying stupid laws. Police seem to be driving a lot of law changes nowadays so give them incentive to improve things.


I dont read the law as being 'so specific'. I read 'proper and sufficient purpose' to mean that there is room for the Police to make a call on the situation and decide that there is 'insufficient' purpose.  Where is @Sidney to please clear this up ??

----------


## Sidney

Technically Lincoln was correct at the time....

There is a technical breach to not have the rifle in your possession outside of your own security provisions at your home address.

Clearly its a catch 22, the trick will always be how you manage the ambiguity.  If the police feel that your have been responsible in securing your firearm, out of sight, inoperable locked inside an otherwise secure vehicle while you got to the toilet, or to obtain a meal, all whilst minimising the time away and perhaps seeking to remain in eyesight of the vehicle - then you are probably fine until you run into the arsehole who wants to get technical with you.

I guess Lincoln was being that guy... at the other end of the spectrum.  I am not sure that he wasn't making a legitimate point, by pointing out the idiocy technically forced on us and the poor defensive bombastic inarticulate little policeman that day couldn't deal with it... But the willingness of the police to misrepresent, lie and fabricate evidence as a result of not liking effectively being held to account for trying to act outside of the law, is a warning to us all.

A dangerous game to play as all found out I guess...

Its very unfortunate that we have such power hungry regulators who believe that they should always hold the power but be the distributors of discretion.  They want us exposed continually and therefore controllable.  I am firmly of the position that society should only hold enough power to prevent disaster, not to subject individuals to punitive control.

Everywhere around me, I run into people who seem happy with the state having that power - its rather sickening, particularly when you consider that the state is supposed to be subject to the people in a democracy, not the other way around.

----------


## Ranger 888

You, as a responsible firearms user, should plan your trip so as to minimise the likelihood of having to leave the (disabled) firearm in your vehicle. Come on guys, as John Key would say, "it's not rocket surgery"...

----------


## Sidney

Actually if my firearm is in a locked vehicle and I have not been negligent in the manner it is stored or visible, then the crime is committed by the offender who breaks in and steals it.  Not me.

But the way the law is at the moment, you are the criminal, you are the most likely to get prosecuted because apprehending the actual criminals is a whole lot harder.  Understanding that is not rocket surgery either... and neither is it equitable.

The transference of responsiblity to those who have not acted or been negligent, or have not intended harm, to either prevent criminality, or to call to account for some unfortunate event is a fricken national sport for the emotionally affected and simple.

Someone must be held accountable is the catch cry of the stupid.  We are riddled with this stuff, its pathetic, its neither preventative or remedial its simply retribution... and is about the exercise of force on otherwise compliant citizens.

Don't sanction stupidity.... the cost is more that we can understand...

----------


## Ryan

> Everywhere around me, I run into people who seem happy with the state having that power - its rather sickening, particularly when you consider that the state is supposed to be subject to the people in a democracy, not the other way around.


^This.

----------


## Kiwi Sapper

> Anyway, best is a base guitar case, it will accommodate all rifles, even a full length Type 38, though not with its bayonet attached.
> 
> Attachment 159222



AN interesting picture of Ariska 38s in British hands which initially had me pondering how it came to be, but eventually, the "little gray cells" finaly obliged. Does your source say which training troop / unit it is who appear in the your picture and when /where it was taken?

----------


## Cyclops

> You, as a responsible firearms user, should plan your trip so as to minimise the likelihood of having to leave the (disabled) firearm in your vehicle. Come on guys, as John Key would say, "it's not rocket surgery"...


You're kidding aren't you? 

Or do you never drive far from home? 

My longest single day drive to a competition is 6 1/2 hours. 
I don't plan to stay in the vehicle for 6 1/2 hours. 
I need a break, food and liquids over that time.

----------


## Cigar

> You're kidding aren't you? 
> 
> Or do you never drive far from home? 
> 
> My longest single day drive to a competition is 6 1/2 hours. 
> I don't plan to stay in the vehicle for 6 1/2 hours. 
> I need a break, food and liquids over that time.


I doubt he is kidding, because he is right. I think you are misinterpreting what he has written. He says "minimize the liklihood", not eliminate. As in go to the toilet, get food or petrol whatever, but don't load up your car with all your hunting or competition gear then drive 5 minutes to your local supermarket and spend half an hour inside getting your groceries (or go to the movies!). Do that beforehand. Different story if you live in the wop-wops though and its not practical to do separate trips.

----------


## Cordite

> AN interesting picture of Ariska 38s in British hands which initially had me pondering how it came to be, but eventually, the "little gray cells" finaly obliged. Does your source say which training troop / unit it is who appear in the your picture and when /where it was taken?


Picture is from this forum page:  https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/...risaka-rifles/  Appears to show some territorial army soldiers during WW1. 

The venerable 6.5x51SR (usually called 6.5x50 for some reason) was adopted by the British early 1900s and some 150,000 of the t-38 rifle saw rear-guard action with the British army in WW1, purchased from the Japanese via middle-men as a stop gap while more SMLEs were manufactured.  Official designations were Rifle Magazine .256 inch, Pattern 1900 (Murati, Type 30) taking round nose ammo, and Pattern 1907, the T38 (an improved rifle worked over by Colonel Nambu) which was sighted in for spitzer ammo.

The adoption of these two rifles and the EXACT copying of the Pattern 1900's bayonet as the P1907 bayonet explains how the heck the British army came to adopt a samurai sword!  Everything Japanese was actually cool those years after the Japanese licked the Russians. How fickle.

Another link to a PDF with details: http://www.armsregister.com/articles...sh_service.pdf

Here is an article, The .256" British, a lost opportunity.  Bemoaning the British army failing to adopt a perfect calibre.  Aside from being a long action cartridge, the 6.5 Jap is arguably an ideal military cartridge with muzzle energy 1.5 times the 5.56x45 NATO and would do just fine with a boat tail.

I'm waffling. (-:

----------


## Ftx325

Well I for one don't see an issue with leaving a firearm in your car as long as the vehicle is registered , because apparently registration is a magical anti theft barrier (sarc)

----------


## Moa Hunter

> You're kidding aren't you? 
> 
> Or do you never drive far from home? 
> 
> My longest single day drive to a competition is 6 1/2 hours. 
> I don't plan to stay in the vehicle for 6 1/2 hours. 
> I need a break, food and liquids over that time.


I agree with Ranger 888. Make sammy's, fill a flask, stop at a roadside layby on the way. To me that is 'responsible' and planning put together.

----------


## Moa Hunter

This is the only image that I can find of a Police vehicle lockbox - I dont know if it is current. Surely if we transport our firearms in a manner equivalent to the manner in which the Police themselves transport ( and leave unattended ) firearms we are covered. If we are considered to be breaking the law, then we are breaking it no more and no less than the Police must be breaking the law ?? https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&ur...r4kDegUIARCBAQ

----------


## distant stalker

I asked about this and the taking the bolt with you was explained as for those "rock and a hard place" situations, needing to go to the toilet, going in to pay for gas etc" there's a pragmatic element where if you could demonstrate the necessity you could expect understanding, if you were just demonstrating desire/preference i don't think it would be so well recieved. There are some tough situations like when you are in accommodation while traveling and need to go out for food, chain and padlock can be handy but not always good spots to lock things up

----------


## Got-ya

No way I'm taking the bolt out or my BLR or a Winny 94 or Rossi 92, Marlin levers anyone?
Yes I can put a cable lock through the action but lets face it that will last 5 seconds with an angle grinder and a cutoff blade. Not all of us use or want bolt action tomato sticks.

----------


## OBRIEN

I recall a news story about a guy from timaru, that was driving to Christchurch to deliver his gun to a gunsmith, 
Rather than leave it unattended in his vehicle (a violation of the arms regulations 1992) he brought it with him when he stopped into to the public toilets in Ashburton, and was arrested by police for Carrying or possessing firearms, etc, except for*lawful,*proper, and sufficient purpose. (A violation of the arms act)

To my knowledge the arms regulations don't include prescribed penalties or offenses but for a violation of them and police can decide your no longer a fit and proper person. 
The arms act 1983 does have offenses sections with fines and prison time, Possible on conviction. 
So faced with possible arrest and criminal charges or a regulatory infraction and possible loss of licence which should you choose?

----------


## Ftx325

In the old days I used to travel to hanmer and greymouth from Nelson regularly with my 308 in a soft gun bag strapped to the side of my motorcycle . Stops for fuel included and no one used to bat an eyelid .
Doubt that would be possible any more .

----------


## Moa Hunter

> I recall a news story about a guy from timaru, that was driving to Christchurch to deliver his gun to a gunsmith, 
> Rather than leave it unattended in his vehicle (a violation of the arms regulations 1992) he brought it with him when he stopped into to the public toilets in Ashburton, and was arrested by police for Carrying or possessing firearms, etc, except for*lawful,*proper, and sufficient purpose. (A violation of the arms act)
> 
> To my knowledge the arms regulations don't include prescribed penalties or offenses but for a violation of them and police can decide your no longer a fit and proper person. 
> The arms act 1983 does have offenses sections with fines and prison time, Possible on conviction. 
> So faced with possible arrest and criminal charges or a regulatory infraction and possible loss of licence which should you choose?


The Police use a lock box. They cant remove the bolts from Bushmasters easily. The only solution for us I can see, is to copy the Police and use a lock box and where the bolt cannot be removed use a trigger lock as well. I believe that a judge would have to dismiss a charge of leaving a firearm in an unattended vehicle if the defense was that the firearm was secured in a way identical to that used by the Police

----------


## Louie

I recall a guy who was sitting his FAL test with me say that he had lost his license years back after buying a gun from H&F, stopping for a pie on the way home and being broken into while in the bakery. Granted that's a dumb as fuck thing to do, but it does suggest if the wrong people know you have a firearm in your vehicle - they will follow you and wait for an opportunity to take it.

I know we're currently getting spanked by the law, but some of these rules are pretty self explanatory.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> went down that path with the local AO , nope because gun laws apply to firearm license holders but not police or armed forces in carrying out their occupation . so you can have a lock box in your vehicle but the rules still apply as in not leaving unattended firearms in your vehicle .


The AO might say that but what would a Judge say ?? With a suitably made secure lock box ( equivalent to a home safe ) the firearms wont be stolen or seen and that is the goal surely

----------


## Danger Mouse

> The Police use a lock box. They cant remove the bolts from Bushmasters easily. The only solution for us I can see, is to copy the Police and use a lock box and where the bolt cannot be removed use a trigger lock as well. I believe that a judge would have to dismiss a charge of leaving a firearm in an unattended vehicle if the defense was that the firearm was secured in a way identical to that used by the Police


Police are exempt from the arms act so it doesn't matter

----------


## Cigar

A judge would be bound by what the law says, which is that it is illegal to leave firearms in an unattended vehicle.
A lockbox is useless if they steal the vehicle.

----------


## Micky Duck

its illegal to smoke a cigarette inside a company vechille........ever seen anyone fined /arrested/sacked for doing so???????

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Police are exempt from the arms act so it doesn't matter


I think it does matter how the Police transport firearms because it sets a precedent and example.

----------


## Micky Duck

yeah but they have had...how many is it now??? pinched in last couple of years....so we are actually BETTER at firearm security in trasit than they are..... maybe they should be copying us...LOL.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> A judge would be bound by what the law says, which is that it is illegal to leave firearms in an unattended vehicle.
> A lockbox is useless if they steal the vehicle.


A well constructed lockbox is far from useless if it cannot easily be opened and the vehicle is recovered quickly after being abandoned with valuables removed as often happens. I have never heard of Police firearms being taken from a locked storage box, but Police vehicles are stolen quite often

----------


## Micky Duck

didnt it happen last year???as loxbox keys were on car keyring???

----------


## Moa Hunter

> didnt it happen last year???as loxbox keys were on car keyring???


Well if it did, all I can say is there's no helping some people and hopefully those officers are now doing clerical work and dont breed

----------


## bunji

> A well constructed lockbox is far from useless if it cannot easily be opened and the vehicle is recovered quickly after being abandoned with valuables removed as often happens. I have never heard of Police firearms being taken from a locked storage box, but Police vehicles are stolen quite often



Here you go,happened in 2019 -

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122...-and-gun-theft

----------


## Micky Duck

> Edit - now here's an idea - you flog a car with a firearm in it, automatic possession of a firearm while unlicensed, possession of firearm parts while unlicensed, and hopefully possession of ammunition while unlicensed over and above unlawfully taking the vehicle and breaking and entering etc.


so the judge will hand down sentence of FIVE slaps across wrist with wet bus ticket Vs the usual one????

----------


## gadgetman

> so the judge will hand down sentence of FIVE slaps across wrist with wet bus ticket Vs the usual one????


But they will be consecutive slaps, where one slap covers the whole five.

----------


## gadgetman

> A well constructed lockbox is far from useless if it cannot easily be opened and the vehicle is recovered quickly after being abandoned with valuables removed as often happens. I have never heard of Police firearms being taken from a locked storage box, but Police vehicles are stolen quite often


Well of the three vehicles I've had stolen in about five years only one was recovered. And it doesn't take long for them to steal one.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Well of the three vehicles I've had stolen in about five years only one was recovered. And it doesn't take long for them to steal one.


Perhaps I haven't explained my position clearly, that being 'The taking of all reasonable steps' to prevent the thieft of firearms and not putting oneself in a situation where a firearm is carried in public potentially causing alarm etc.
Granted the law is incomplete on the matter of firearms transport, but that does not mean that responsible owners cannot go beyond what is required to secure their firearms. Mine are locked to the vehicle when in transit. If I have to leave the vehicle the bolt is carried on my person

----------


## gadgetman

> Perhaps I haven't explained my position clearly, that being 'The taking of all reasonable steps' to prevent the thieft of firearms and not putting oneself in a situation where a firearm is carried in public potentially causing alarm etc.
> Granted the law is incomplete on the matter of firearms transport, but that does not mean that responsible owners cannot go beyond what is required to secure their firearms. Mine are locked to the vehicle when in transit. If I have to leave the vehicle the bolt is carried on my person


But it is illegal to do so. It is clearly stated in the statutes. Therefore taking with you to avoid breaking such a clearly laid out law must be a legitimate purpose.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> But it is illegal to do so. It is clearly stated in the statutes. Therefore taking with you to avoid breaking such a clearly laid out law must be a legitimate purpose.


I repeat: It is not illegal to have a lockbox. It is not a rigid section of law. It is written to allow the Police discretion ' Carrying or possessing a firearm without a lawful, proper and sufficient purpose'. The Police get to make a call on 'sufficient purpose'. A non discretionary section would likely be in regard to blood alcohol levels. Good luck taking your firearm into the BNZ, I will leave mine in the vehicle, parked in sight, in a lock box, bolt removed. Tell us how you get on at the bank testing 'legitimate purpose'

----------


## Kiwi Sapper

> But it is illegal to do so. It is clearly stated in the statutes. Therefore taking with you to avoid breaking such a clearly laid out law must be a legitimate purpose.


And if it is entirely disguised as in a soft or hard carry bag/  case and if a bolt weapon, the bolt is removed and locked in your car, (Am I wrong in assuming that firearms parts do not have to be stored the same way as the firearm,? if so then in your pocket), then an arguable  and reasonable defence exists if Plod is having a bad hair day and you end up in court.

----------


## OBRIEN

Its not a crime to leave a firearm unattended in a vehicle, in that you shouldn't receive criminal charges and be at risk of a fine/prison sentence, 
but it is a breach of the Arms Regulations 1992 section 19 which requires you to take reasonable steps to secure firearm against theft. One of the suggested reasonable steps is not leaving the firearm unattended in a vehicle. 
This is a condition of your licence. 
So get caught leaving a firearm unattended in your car and your license can be revoked. 

If caught out through some sort of unusual circumstances, and your faced with the choice of "do I carry a firearm around in public or do I leave it in an unattended vehicle." For example your car breaks down and you have to walk to somewhere to find a phone to call for help. What do you do? 

The irony is its less likely your firearm would be stolen if you're in control of it but,
Carrying it would put you at risk of breeches of the Arms Act 1983 with the risk of prosecution, fines, prison sentence and loss of licence.

The law creates a situation where to avoid alarming some gun fearing member of the public you are motivated to actually leave it in the vehicle as a situation with the lower personal risk but higher risk of it falling in to a criminals hands.

----------


## gadgetman

> I repeat: It is not illegal to have a lockbox. It is not a rigid section of law. It is written to allow the Police discretion ' Carrying or possessing a firearm without a lawful, proper and sufficient purpose'. The Police get to make a call on 'sufficient purpose'. A non discretionary section would likely be in regard to blood alcohol levels. Good luck taking your firearm into the BNZ, I will leave mine in the vehicle, parked in sight, in a lock box, bolt removed. Tell us how you get on at the bank testing 'legitimate purpose'


According to the Act.




> 3Act to bind the Crown
> (2)
> Nothing in this Act renders unlawful the carriage or possession of arms items, ammunition, or explosives
> 
> (ii)
> a member of the Police or an armourer employed or engaged by the Police; or
> (iii)
> a person employed by the Police to provide firearms training to members of the Police; or


The restrictions imposed by the act do not apply to Police, so what they do does not mean we can also do. If that was the case then why don't you go out and obtain an AR15? See how that goes for you!

According to the Regulations.




> 19Conditions relating to security precautions
> 
> (2)
> On and after 1 July 1993 the reasonable steps required by subclause (1)﻿(c) shall include
> 
> (c)
> ensuring that no firearm in the holders possession is left in a vehicle that is unattended.


Although it is not illegal to have a lock box it is still technically illegal to leave a firearm in a lockbox in an unattended vehicle for *us*. As has been pointed out to you many times also, the law is the law, the regulations are the law. Discretion would have to take into account actions to avoid breaking the law.

----------


## Moa Hunter

> According to the Act.
> 
> 
> 
> The restrictions imposed by the act do not apply to Police, so what they do does not mean we can also do. If that was the case then why don't you go out and obtain an AR15? See how that goes for you!
> 
> According to the Regulations.
> 
> 
> ...


Rather than becoming pedantic about the law which everyone I expect agrees does not make allowance for unexpected situations ( rushed trip to A&E following a hunting accident), some of us are trying to present a practical solution that 1) keeps the firearms safe and 2) does not result in a breach of ' proper and sufficient purpose ' and 3) if the situation were examined by a judge, would be found that all reasonable and practical steps had been taken in the circumstances.
Is it the high protein part of your diet that has changed you from reasonable and mellow to aggressive Gadget ? Get some spuds and Kumera into ya !

----------


## gadgetman

> Rather than becoming pedantic about the law which everyone I expect agrees does not make allowance for unexpected situations ( rushed trip to A&E following a hunting accident), some of us are trying to present a practical solution that 1) keeps the firearms safe and 2) does not result in a breach of ' proper and sufficient purpose ' and 3) if the situation were examined by a judge, would be found that all reasonable and practical steps had been taken in the circumstances.
> Is it the high protein part of your diet that has changed you from reasonable and mellow to aggressive Gadget ? Get some spuds and Kumera into ya !


The diet is moderate (normal) in protein, not high. 

I'm just laying out the rules of the silly game. The best option is to get a more reasonable law.

The fudge room is in your 'proper and sufficient reason'. The stated laws are fixed. Again, any reasonable person would have to conclude that if it is stated that you cannot leave the firearm in an unattended vehicle that the intention of the law makers was that you must take it with you. Avoiding breaking a very specific law would have to be a proper and sufficient reason.

----------


## OBRIEN

> Rather than becoming pedantic about the law which everyone I expect agrees does not make allowance for unexpected situations ( rushed trip to A&E following a hunting accident), some of us are trying to present a practical solution that 1) keeps the firearms safe and 2) does not result in a breach of ' proper and sufficient purpose ' and 3) if the situation were examined by a judge, would be found that all reasonable and practical steps had been taken in the circumstances.
> Is it the high protein part of your diet that has changed you from reasonable and mellow to aggressive Gadget ? Get some spuds and Kumera into ya !


in the event of an emergency, it would be reasonable to expect medical treatment to take precedence over the need to secure your firearm against theft from a vehicle, 
bleeding to death so you don't leave your gun unattended wouldn't be reasonable so if police did try revoke your license in that sort of circumstance then your lawyer would have pretty solid ground to appeal.

----------


## gadgetman

The unfortunate thing with the 'Lincoln' case was that Police provided enough fodder that the Judge could quash the charges without having to address the daftness of the law that Lincoln was attempting to test.

----------


## Cordite

> This is the only image that I can find of a Police vehicle lockbox - I dont know if it is current. Surely if we transport our firearms in a manner equivalent to the manner in which the Police themselves transport ( and leave unattended ) firearms we are covered. If we are considered to be breaking the law, then we are breaking it no more and no less than the Police must be breaking the law ?? https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&ur...r4kDegUIARCBAQ


Someone already answered your post, but here is the actual drawer safe used by NZ Police. I'd not go for exactly that, but instead lock the firearm in the car _in a concealment_ and the bolt would still come with me if detachable. 





(But I'd not carry half a shotgun around. English police shot Harry Stanley who carried a table leg in a plastic bag. His offense was being Scottish, which someone had mistakenly mistaken for him having an Irish accent and their AOS got called in. I mean, it would be OK shooting someone for _actually_ being Irish, no?)

----------


## Moa Hunter

> Someone already answered your post, but here is the actual drawer safe used by NZ Police. I'd not go for exactly that, but instead lock the firearm in the car _in a concealment_ and the bolt would still come with me if detachable. 
> 
> 
> Attachment 159875
> 
> 
> (But I'd not carry half a shotgun around. English police shot Harry Stanley who carried a table leg in a plastic bag. His offense was being Scottish, which someone had mistakenly mistaken for him having an Irish accent and their AOS got called in. I mean, it would be OK shooting someone for _actually_ being Irish, no?)


Agree on carrying bolt on person. I think shooting the Irish (southern) is going a bit far but following the lead of the American Eugenics society and sterilising them is completely acceptable.

----------


## small_caliber

> The unfortunate thing with the 'Lincoln' case was that Police provided enough fodder that the Judge could quash the charges without having to address the daftness of the law that Lincoln was attempting to test.


Now the question is Did the police do that intentionally because they didn't want the law tested, which would highlight the ineptitude of the law makers and the police, and also set a precedence that we could all base our actions on.

Until someone "tests" the law and gets a judge to make a ruling we can only base our actions on what we think is right, and how many times have firearms been left in a vehicle while going for a feed or stopping at a toilet and people haven't been caught?

The only time that someone is likely to get caught is when the vehicle or firearm gets stolen.

----------

