# Firearms and Shooting > Shooting >  223 for deer hunting?

## sakokid

hey  all has anyone used a .223 for hunting deer? i use a large caliber and recently thought about going smaller. i dont do that long range shooting stuff, close range most of the time. any thoughts ta

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## Gillie

Been using one for years as has my father. Bullet construction is an important choice and even more important is bullet placement otherwise the .223 is fine for deer. As you mention i wouldn't be taking long shots either as they tend to have an adverse effect on bullet placement and energy.

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## Spudattack

Hey Sakokid, 

being from Africa where it is illegal to hunt anything larger than a springbuck with a centrefire .22 I would personally regard a .243 (6mm) as a minimum on deer, especially when you consider it is the hunters responsibility to ensure a quick, clean kill and as little pain and suffering as possible. 

I do realise that others have been using .223s on deer successfully for years, just makes margin for error that much less. Shot placement (as always) and strongly constructed bullets like the Barnes tsx  are crucial.

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## veitnamcam

Iv used one a bit, my father a lot.
As Gillie said with the right pill and proper placement it is fine on deer.

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## Kiwi Greg

> Go to an NZDA range on a Saturday and see just how bad a lot of hunters are with a centerfire. 
> 
> Better a neck shot deer with a .223 than a gut shot deer with a bigger than .243 cal. 
> 
> Trouble starts when, like my brother and his mate did, young guys chest shoot a couple of deer on a 4x4  track and both drop like stones. Clearly the 223 will do it in the right spot. Now they go around telling everybody 223 is heaps for deer.
> 
> It may not go as well next time as they are not careful.


A mate told me about the same sort of thing recently with a few on lookers, young inexperienced guys, etc

Red Deer, 200+ meters, waited until all was just nice, side on, good rest, very experienced shooter, good conditions, relaxed Deer, 223 suppressed Sako tack driver, neck shot, as expected tiny little bang, Deer goes straight down like a sack of spuds, all good.

All the guys  *WOW, 223 is the shit* gotta get me one of those........... Nek Minit.......Bugger

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## LJP

I have always thought the .223 was a rat gun - well until I shot 50 odd goats & half a dozen pigs with a mates 223 loaded with 70gr Berger VLD's. Wow do these bullets perform well on this size game - It seemed as effective as my 243 that I had been using. In cool, calm hands I'd be happy with up to sika sized deer out to 200yds. For a beginner I'd still consider it a rat gun - but hey my views are somewhat distorted as my varmint rifle for magpies & bunnies is a 7mm  :Wtfsmilie:

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## gimp

Yeah using a real bullet helps, not some 55gr shit

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## Munsey

What if you got a standard twist ? 1in 12 ? Is that right ( howa ) can you still throw  those bigger bullets ? .

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## gimp

Nope, you're out of luck

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## Munsey

> Nope, you're out of luck


Cool didn't buy it for deer , but had to ask .

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## A-Bolt

> Yeah using a real bullet helps, not some 55gr shit


My 14 y.o son has shot three red deer with a .223 using 55gr. Two spikers at 120ish metres and a hind at 180m. Worked OK for him.

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## Spudattack

Karamojo Bell shot over a thousand elephant with a 7x57 mauser, still wouldn't call it a great elephant calibre!

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## ARdave

i reckon if u need to ask weather its big enough for you, its not .

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## R93

The little .223 is my favorite cal for spring/summer hunting deer or the like. I have shot more animals with it than any other calibre. I have lost one, due to poor shot placement and to me, that is too many.
I use a shitty little hornady 55gr sp but 99% of my shots are clean shots. 
I never attempt a body shot unless I need the meat and cant get a clean one. I like to know the ground and where the bugger is going to run as well.
You never, ever want to be rushed using one. You need to be patient and deliberate especially in the bush. 
TBH and without trying to sound wanky I reckon you need to have shot a fair few animals before trying to use one exclusively, but you have to start somewhere eh.

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## Gillie

Yep, i would agree with R93 on that. I started with a .303 before i graduated to a .223. Both my father and i use 63gr sierra SMPs and they work great.

Shot while roaring in the bush. Straight in the chest and he dropped on the spot.

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## R93

Far out Gillie, bush? Thats what we call a clearing at home :Grin:

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## sakokid

hey thanks for the info. i have shot plenty of game and always out sniffing around in the scrub. i know how to take my time with shots etc. i just wanted to see what other people thought as i have never used a 223 to hunt deer. i use a 7mm and i have had them run 80m before tipping over. i think its all about shot placement more than what you shoot really.

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## R93

Well you should go for it if your keen. I love using mine. I always know I have made a good shot at whatever range by the loud click sound when ya hit bone.
That and when they fall rather abruptly from your sight picture :Thumbsup:

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## Gillie

> Far out Gillie, bush? Thats what we call a clearing at home


Yep, that is a beautiful spot that one, can easily get a 80m shot in the "bush". Not many deer there but we are successful more often than not 
 :Thumbsup:

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## R93

Just ribbing ya Gillie, but I am sure I have never hunted bush like that. It would be an advantage for the animals as well as they would see my boofhead from even further away :Wink:

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## Gillie

It is an area i have often thought a thermal imaging device would be a huge advantage.

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## kimjon

A .223 will do the job, but a bigger cal will do it better. In saying that, I've shot more animals with a .223 than any other calibre, so they can't be that bad?

I'd say use whatever rifle you have total confidence in and that'll be the one you shoot the best.

kj

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## scoped

What 55gr pills are you guys using on deer? Any luck with the 55gr SGK's?

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## Matt2308

I've shot Muntjac, Roe, Fallow and a few Reds with the .223.  On the smaller species such as Roe it would usually put them down as quickly as my .270 with which ever bullets I used.  On the larger species they would often run quite a way with heart/lung shots and there would rarely be an exit wound so often very little blood trail. 
As others have said, with good bullets and shot placement it will kill them OK but may increase the chances of having to search for them and this will increase the likelihood of loosing them in cover or fading light. 
Also consider you will limit the shots you can take as penetration isn't as good.  This might mean passing up shots that you may have been able to take with a larger caliber such as quartering away shots as the bullet may not reach the vitals. 
The .243 or 6.5x55 are both relatively light recoiling and would be a better choice on deer in most circumstances.
However if you already have the .223 there's no reason not to use it as long as you know it's limitations.

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## leathel

Just got a Marlin 223 for my kids, mainly for goats and targets but it has a 1:9 twist so will be loading the 69 targex pills .... they should work a treat for those and maybee deer down the track.

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## JoshC

I shoot deer all the time with my 223 mainly with Hornady Training Ammo 55gn, as I carry it in my truck and used it most days. I put about 100 rounds through it over the last 3 days just shooting hares, plovers, rabbits etc from the truck. Shot a big hind a couple of weeks back with Malhunting, shoulder shot, 50 yards, she took two steps and keeled over, Substantial internal damage and the pill went right through to the opposite shoulder. The other deer that was with it I shot a bit far back and it travelled 30 yards and keeled over. Farthest shot I have taken a deer with the 223 is 280 metres, ranged, shoulder shot and it was a bang flop. Young deer though. Bullet placement is the key, and conditions need to be good, ie not windy as etc. I've yet to lose one Ive shot with the 223, and have shot dozens. I think they are a versatile wee calibre in experienced hands where the shooter is happy to let an animal walk instead of taking a risky shot. They are a great calibre to shoot alot of rounds out of, say at rabbits and hares etc, and this is great for confidence.

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## Lorne

take nothing for granted with .224 centerfires but with experience, correct shot placement and care for projectile construction you can have some excellent performance on the larger medium sized game.

if you are recoil intolerate or just feel more comfortable with the .224 centerfires it does not limit you in your choice of game in new zealand. although for optimal and consistant performance a premium projectile is required such as the barnes TTSX or scrirrocco swift II which are constructed to allow entry and exit on the largest of red deer at ultra velocities.

i would be wary as a projectile falls below the 2500-2600 FPS mark as massive trauma and hydrostatic shock dwindles under this point of velocity which can lead to prolonged kills in larger animals if you do not have a well placed neck / head shot or sufficent damage through frontal locomotive muscles and the vital organs inside.

ill keep it at that for now as it is a bit of a baffle with bullshit but if you want to know more i will gladly share  :Psmiley:

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## Tahr

Draw a 1.5 inch black dot on a piece of a3 paper. Thats what you need to hit every time you shoot a deer with a .223. Then draw 3 circles about it 4 apart. You need to be inside the first circle with the likes of the 243 through to the standard 6.5mm, and inside the next circle with the .270-30 cal class. If you can only shoot inside the last circle, get closer or practice some more. Or give up, what you are doing is cruel.

I just made that up. But it looks like not a bad rule of thumb by my experience. You can argue the exception, but as I say to my students ask me questions about what is most likely to happen, not about what is least likely to happen.

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## oneshot

If your a good shot and confident then yes, I have shot a shit load of deer with a 223, as has my brother using a 222. Great little bush gun for head and neck shots.

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## gadgetman

> Draw a 1.5 inch black dot on a piece of a3 paper. Thats what you need to hit every time you shoot a deer with a .223. Then draw 3 circles about it 4 apart. You need to be inside the first circle with the likes of the 243 through to the standard 6.5mm, and inside the next circle with the .270-30 cal class. If you can only shoot inside the last circle, get closer or practice some more. Or give up, what you are doing is cruel.
> 
> I just made that up. But it looks like not a bad rule of thumb by my experience. You can argue the exception, but as I say to my students ask me questions about what is most likely to happen, not about what is least likely to happen.


I'd be happy to get inside that out to 250-300m with my 223.

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## tikka

Have shot more deer with a 223 than the other calibre's I've owned and cheap to run.

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## JoshC

Shot a large bodied spiker this morning with my 223, probably 85-90kgs gutted. Shoulder shot, 150yds roughly, 55gn Hornady training ammo. He was walking slightly away from me, hence why I opted for a shoulder/chest shot rather than head/neck. Angled the shot just behind the shoulder, the projectile travelled thru his vitals and stopped just under skin slightly forward of the opposite shoulder blade. It dropped him on the spot, in his tracks, and by the time I walked over to him he was in deer heaven.

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## Scouser

Warning...daft newbie question.....what about barrel length, say an 18" barrel, how far would you be prepared to still shoot..... 

serious question, my .223 has a 1 in 12 twist and is at that length, not confident to use it on deer yet, use my 7-08 for that!

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## Scribe

> Warning...daft newbie question.....what about barrel length, say an 18" barrel, how far would you be prepared to still shoot..... 
> 
> serious question, my .223 has a 1 in 12 twist and is at that length, not confident to use it on deer yet, use my 7-08 for that!


Most all of the contract cullers are using this calibre...Sako shortened and suppressed. Most aerial shooting is carried out using AR15 though you still find the Ruger mini 14 in use.

I have the same 223 1 in 12 twist. Use 55gr. Why are you not confident in shooting a deer???. The killing area is exactly the same as any other hi Powered rifle.

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## JoshC

Mine 1 in 12 twist, 15.5 inch barrel. No trouble shooting deer at ranges out to 200m, sometimes further, most of the time within 100m though. 

It is all about shot placement and knowing yours and your rifles capabilities. Nothing more.

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## Scouser

Thanks guys, im not confident enough about shot placement, as im new, i get the heart palpitations every time i see one, which hasn't been a lot, seen 8, shot at 4, dropped 2.....

first kill, was on a deer farm, dont consider that a hunt, more an eye opener to see whats its like, second kill was a 'roar jobbie' cacking myself and a huge adrenalin rush......

hopefully a quiet stalk will result in me taking a deep breath and a more controlled 'placed' shot....now that the monkey is off my back....certainly hope so!!!!!

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## Happy

@Scribe what rounds are you using? If reloading what projectiles ?

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## R93

> Most all of the contract cullers are using this calibre...Sako shortened and suppressed. Most aerial shooting is carried out using AR15 though you still find the Ruger mini 14 in use.
> 
> I have the same 223 1 in 12 twist. Use 55gr. Why are you not confident in shooting a deer???. The killing area is exactly the same as any other hi Powered rifle.


Most aerial work lately is done with buckshot in my experience. Any shooters with the skill to use a rifle are seriously, few and far between.
Not to bad in the tussock when you can work them up hill and rattle a mag off and fluke a hit.
Plus hunting in low light on flats and slips makes buckshot proves more practical.


Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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## Scribe

> Most aerial work lately is done with buckshot in my experience. Any shooters with the skill to use a rifle are seriously, few and far between.
> Not to bad in the tussock when you can work them up hill and rattle a mag off and fluke a hit.
> Plus hunting in low light on flats and slips makes buckshot proves more practical.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


Yes I had forgotten to include buckshot. I never used it much myself. It was hard to get enough lead into a target in the tall podocarp.

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## veitnamcam

Forgive my ignorance but how do you even see a deer from the air in tall podocarp?

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## Scribe

> @Scribe what rounds are you using? If reloading what projectiles ?


Hi Happy,

I am about to load a batch of 55gr, Nosler, Solid Base, boat tail, Spitzers. I don't know whether you can still buy them now. I have a few less than 100 left.

27.5 gr of BL-C 2. Behind them. I havn't loaded this powder before myself. But recently I was giver 20 rounds to try. They appear fast and accurate.

I have been using Nosler Partitions 60gr but I thought they were a bit hard. I didn't have them going fast enough either I felt.

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## Scribe

> Forgive my ignorance but how do you even see a deer from the air in tall podocarp?
> 
> Attachment 31504


Yes as I was saying that was a problem inn places like the Ureweras where we did a lot of shooting. It was mostly slip and riverbed shooting there. But when a deer carrying a bit of lead made it into the podocarp it was not that easy to finish off unless you had the AR15 handy.

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## Tahr

> Hi Happy,
> 
> I am about to load a batch of 55gr, Nosler, Solid Base, boat tail, Spitzers. I don't know whether you can still buy them now. I have a few less than 100 left.
> 
> 27.5 gr of BL-C 2. Behind them. I havn't loaded this powder before myself. But recently I was giver 20 rounds to try. They appear fast and accurate.
> 
> I have been using Nosler Partitions 60gr but I thought they were a bit hard. I didn't have them going fast enough either I felt.


I've used that load too with various 55 grn bullets. Mainly Lapua when in the trees for a living.  It's an underrated powder. Burns a bit dirty though. Used it in .222 as well.
BL-C2 behaves almost exactly the same as  the new powder CFE223. 

I use 2206sc and 69 grn Targex @ 3k and 2208 and 55grn Barnes @ 3.2k now. Shoot in the same place so I just use the Targex for longer shots. I've used them out to 290 yards, but mainly the Barnes under 200 yards. Barrel 20".

BL-C2 is also excellent in short barrelled 7-08 with 120 and 140 grn.

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## Rushy

> Forgive my ignorance but how do you even see a deer from the air in tall podocarp?
> 
> Attachment 31504


Is that you chomping on the supplejack VC?

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## Scribe

> I've used that load too with various 55 grn bullets. Mainly Lapua when in the trees for a living.  It's an underrated powder. Burns a bit dirty though. Used it in .222 as well.
> BL-C2 behaves almost exactly the same as  the new powder CFE223. 
> 
> I use 2206sc and 69 grn Targex @ 3k and 2208 and 55grn Barnes @ 3.2k now. Shoot in the same place so I just use the Targex for longer shots. I've used them out to 290 yards, but mainly the Barnes under 200 yards. Barrel 20".
> 
> BL-C2 is also excellent in short barrelled 7-08 with 120 and 140 grn.


Thanks Tahr, you have added to my store of knowledge on this powder.

I think you are right about BL-C 2 being known as dirty powder. The early M16 that gave a bit of trouble in Vietnam were burning this powder or a close cousin to it.

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## veitnamcam

> Is that you chomping on the supplejack VC?


no that is bald bob

Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2

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## Rushy

> no that is bald bob
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Solid unit

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## veitnamcam

> Yes as I was saying that was a problem inn places like the Ureweras where we did a lot of shooting. It was mostly slip and riverbed shooting there. But when a deer carrying a bit of lead made it into the podocarp it was not that easy to finish off unless you had the AR15 handy.



Ah I see.

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## veitnamcam

> Solid unit


He is the DonKey (private joke on many levels  :Yaeh Am Not Durnk: )

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## Rushy

> He is the DonKey (private joke on many levels )


Enough said

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## kawekakid

I have 90 grain hollow point loaded for 223 they work well

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## Scribe

> I have 90 grain hollow point loaded for 223 they work well


I have over the years developed an affection for the hollow point. Kawekakid I have been eyeing the hollows that xring is making with interest. I just think a 60gr hollow point projectile would be the best in my rifle.

Mostly this is just intuition but I have this feeling. Up until recently I Have been using the lighter hollow points on deer with good success but I feel they are a bit frangible.

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## jefftrevor

a couple of months ago scribe did a great article on  the 222. seeing the bullet hitting the deer through the scope . when using a 223 with 75 gr to 90 gr bullets is that still possible and also what about a 243 with 85gr. cheers

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## veitnamcam

yes and yes 

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## Scribe

> a couple of months ago scribe did a great article on  the 222. seeing the bullet hitting the deer through the scope . when using a 223 with 75 gr to 90 gr bullets is that still possible and also what about a 243 with 85gr. cheers


I have not had a 223 that I thought would stabilise a 75 to 90 gr so don't use them. Current rifle is 1 in 12 twist so 60's are the highest I go. I have such success with the fast 55's and that is what I am currently loading.

These suit my method of shooting through the ribs admirably. It doesn't take a heavy bullet to break in and the organ damage from the 55gr is something to see. Rib shots give a wide margin of error. (Base of the neck to last rib)

 On a long shot I might hit the shoulder, though I curse the loss of meat as both shoulders are often destroyed.

Now I content myself with one deer at a time. But if I want a second I will shoot the lead animal on the last rib back destroying the liver but keeping it on its feet for the few seconds necessary to kill the other.

Head and neck are a sometimes shot and I have no complaints with the 55's there either.

If I went back to the 243 (though that is not likely now) I would continue to use the 85 sierra HPBT because we had such success with them over the years.

This may be an old fashioned view. But dead is dead and as far as I know there are no degrees of dead. It is a long time since I wounded a deer.

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## jefftrevor

second part of my question is. I bought my rifle brand new 50 years ago, a parker hale 270. it is a great accurate rifle but I have never seen the bullet hit the deer. it is the only rifle I have used is this normal or is it bad technique.I have toyed with the idea of getting a 223 but not if I am not able to see the bullet hit  the deer.

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## Rusky

Never under estimate the mighty 223. Ive shot all my deer with it up to 180-200m and all have been accounted for with the 55gr. Shot placement is key, but it makes you a better hunter I believe.

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## JoshC

> second part of my question is. I bought my rifle brand new 50 years ago, a parker hale 270. it is a great accurate rifle but I have never seen the bullet hit the deer. it is the only rifle I have used is this normal or is it bad technique.I have toyed with the idea of getting a 223 but not if I am not able to see the bullet hit  the deer.


If you are able to follow through on your shot and watch it you should be able to see the bullet impact on the deer. Generally though at closer ranges with a higher powered rifle you won't see the bullet impact as in the time it takes for you to recover from the recoil it has already hit the deer. A rifle with less recoil allows you to watch the shot a bit easier.

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## rambo-6mmrem

nothing wrong with 223 deer cullers used 222 for years.... as others have said shot placement is important as with any rifle but more so as you go down in cal
my advice would be plenty of range time I would do shooting at all distances starting at 25m and working in 25m increments 25,50,75,100,125,150 and so on so and write it all down
for example
25m 1" high
50m 1/2" high
75m 1/4" high
100m dead on
125m 1/4 inch low 
and so on you could even tape the info to your butt for quick reference so you know exactly where your shot is going at said distance so you can be dead on the mark when you need to make it count

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## Gillie

> I have not had a 223 that I thought would stabilise a 75 to 90 gr so don't use them. Current rifle is 1 in 12 twist so 60's are the highest I go. I have such success with the fast 55's and that is what I am currently loading.


Dad and I use the sierra 63gr SMPs - they are simply deadly on deer. As you mention the worst bit about shoulder shooting them is you loose the meat. My 223 is a 1:9 twist and Dad's a 1:12 twist. Both stabilise the 63gr projectiles fine. 




> If I went back to the 243 (though that is not likely now) I would continue to use the 85 sierra HPBT because we had such success with them over the years.


Yep, using these in my .243 at the moment. And I thought my 223 was bad for damaging meat! The 85gr Sierra HPBTs kill stuff dead - very impressed!

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## veitnamcam

You don't automaticly have to discard the shoulders if shot there, usually the actual damage is confined to a 3 inch diameter circle, yes there will be blood between the muscles but the muscles themselves will usually be fine if separated and trimmed.

just saying  :Have A Nice Day: 

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## Scribe

> You don't automaticly have to discard the shoulders if shot there, usually the actual damage is confined to a 3 inch diameter circle, yes there will be blood between the muscles but the muscles themselves will usually be fine if separated and trimmed.
> 
> just saying 
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Some shoulders are of the yearlings I have shot are real bad. I am not picky but I even have trouble persuading the Labs its edible. It smells like meat but it sure doesn't look like or have the texture of meat that I would eat.

Usually a few razor sharp slivers of copper with pulverised shards of bone are mixed in with it that I would hate to bite on or swallow. I gnashed a piece of steel shot recently that nearly knackered a tooth and sent me out of my seat hollering like a Bantu.

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## Rushy

> I gnashed a piece of steel shot recently that nearly knackered a tooth and sent me out of my seat hollering like a Bantu.


Oh the mental image that conjures.  I have broken more than one tooth through sitar experiences.  Not fun at all.

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## Scribe

> Dad and I use the sierra 63gr SMPs - they are simply deadly on deer. As you mention the worst bit about shoulder shooting them is you loose the meat. My 223 is a 1:9 twist and Dad's a 1:12 twist. Both stabilise the 63gr projectiles fine. 
> 
> 
> Yep, using these in my .243 at the moment. And I thought my 223 was bad for damaging meat! The 85gr Sierra HPBTs kill stuff dead - very impressed!


I was wondering if anything over sixty grains would stabilise in the 1.12 twist Gillie. Thanks for that information. Yes those Sierra 85 hollow point can make a mess. Shoot ribs or head and neck.

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## Rusky

Whats the easiest way to work out the twist rate of your barrel if you dont know it?

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## veitnamcam

> Whats the easiest way to work out the twist rate of your barrel if you dont know it?


a tight patch on cleaning rod.
mark its depth and rotation then pull out slowly till it has done one turn and mark.
measure between marks, 12 inches would be 1 in 12 or one turn for every 12 inches.

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## Spudattack

> a tight patch on cleaning rod.
> mark its depth and rotation then pull out slowly till it has done one turn and mark.
> measure between marks, 12 inches would be 1 in 12 or one turn for every 12 inches.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


+1

Or if its a modern rifle google it, most manufacturers will post their twist rates.

What rifle is it?

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## Happy

> Dad and I use the sierra 63gr SMPs - they are simply deadly on deer. 
> 
> Yep, using these in my .243 at the moment. And I thought my 223 was bad for damaging meat! The 85gr Sierra HPBTs kill stuff dead - very impressed!


 @Gillie would you mind sharing powder and starting point load data ?

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## Rusky

Its a ZKK 601 brno 223. I knew how to do the rod thing but have only a pull through so not sure if it will work properly.

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## Carpe Diem

> a tight patch on cleaning rod.
> mark its depth and rotation then pull out slowly till it has done one turn and mark.
> measure between marks, 12 inches would be 1 in 12 or one turn for every 12 inches.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2


Very Useful Cam - especially if you suspect it may have been re-barrelled.

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## Spudattack

> Its a ZKK 601 brno 223. I knew how to do the rod thing but have only a pull through so not sure if it will work properly.



I am pretty sure those had a 1:12 twist.
No, the pull through won't work  :Wink:

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## Gillie

> @Gillie would you mind sharing powder and starting point load data ?


 @Happy

In the 223 with the Sierra 63gr SMPs i am using BM2 powder. Starting For a starting load i would recommend 24gr and work your way from there. 

In the 243 with the Sierra 85gr HPBT i suggest you work with your reloading manual. I am running a relatively hot load with these.

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