# Firearms and Shooting > Shotgunning >  "Desperately seeking", no not Susan, a 12 bore load with fibre,not plastic wads.

## Kiwi Sapper

I'm not a Green Party supporter..............................Bother, just had to go and wash my fingers after typing those loathsome words, but having just acquired a " 'tween the wars" period English gun I am looking to create period loads , specifically, using fibre wads as opposed to plastic cup wads.  The "Eley Impax"     https://tinyurl.com/yjxwh22q   is an example which, to quote their Spin Doctor's, 

*" the powders gentle, progressive burn delivers plenty of performance but the sort of barrel pressures your treasured side-by-side will love. * 

A kind and supportive a Wanganui consortium of Wilson's and a client supplied me with some Eley Impax and I have deconstructed one to find their inner secrets and it seems to be the powder.

10.93 grains of "PSB +3." 

I have as much chance of getting, "PSB +3" as *I hope* the Show Pony has of being the Prime Monster after the next election. Anyway, as my gun has a 2 1/2 inch chamber, reloading is the only option which although there is a move away from plastic wads, lacks a correlating move in the listing of fibre loads *with modern day powders*...........mainly 'cos so far, it is cheaper to buy than reload.   Well until the supply dries up.  :>(

SO, has anybody worked up, or is aware of, or is using a 12 bore  2 1/2 chamber, 1 oz or less load *with modern powders?*

If so, please do tell.

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## Marty Henry

Consider target products cowboy action ammunition if it's just for shooting for fun the odd clay target or close bunny or pesky starling. 3/4 oz 900 odd fps from memory. It's roll crimped 2 1/2 inch with fibre wad.

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## Micky Duck

hold the line caller......

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## Micky Duck

well that was interesting....Ive got cowboy action shotsell loaddata for 1oz loads with ap 30 and ap50   think thats the only two...and believe you have some of one????
the load data is with plastic wad........BUT heres a theory for you.....others with more experience feel free to chime in and blast if Im way off track here.....
TRY the load recipe for a 1 oz target load with components you have got BUT take petals off wad,maybe leave just 1/2'' and see how the column LOOKS in your 2 1/2" case.....also,if you roll crimp rather than star crimp you can get away with longer load in shorter chamber BECAUSE there are no case petals to jam into the leade....the shorter ones will still be in the wide chamber section.....I KNOW you can use a 3" roll crimped load in 2 3/4" gun safely....lots of buckshot loads measure up like this.....rio mini mag were the same. by taking the petals off you will reduce the volume of space taken up and it MAY JUST drop column low enough to work
worst case you place an overshot card on top of shot column and add couple of dabs of nail varnish etc to hold it in place inside the case.....

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## Tedz50

Gunworks sell 65mm loads for old shotguns and I use the in my Manton and W Smith and are low pressure loads.

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## Kiwi Sapper

> Gunworks sell 65mm loads for old shotguns and I use the in my Manton and W Smith and are low pressure loads.


My thanks @Tedz50  but I can't locate  them on their web site. Out of stock? Could you please provide the Brand and I will search on that but I am wanting both low pressure and fibre wads. No plastic.

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## Maca49

Have you got brass hulls

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## Kiwi Sapper

> Consider target products cowboy action ammunition if it's just for shooting for fun the odd clay target or close bunny or pesky starling. 3/4 oz 900 odd fps from memory. It's roll crimped 2 1/2 inch with fibre wad.


That sounds a possible,  @Marty Henry but the only NZ supplier Uncle Google throws up is Gunworks and Cowboy doesn't appear on their website.  NIl stock i suspect, so back to seeking a load. 
.
I'm not going to just swap fibre for plastic as I am well aware of the many warnings of unexpected pressure  levels. Very tempting 'tho as the Ely Impax powder load is only 10.93 grains and I could start off at 1/2 that with APS 450 / AS 50 N  and work up as I "hear" that it is one of the more slow burning powders, but again, nothing on the container or IDE Website confirming that ....SIGH

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## Kiwi Sapper

> Have you got brass hulls


Yes,  not the modern day,  but the solid period and in good condition ones.

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## Maca49

> That sounds a possible,  @Marty Henry but the only NZ supplier Uncle Google throws up is Gunworks and Cowboy doesn't appear on their website.  NIl stock i suspect, so back to seeking a load. 
> .
> I'm not going to just swap fibre for plastic as I am well aware of the many warnings of unexpected pressure  levels. Very tempting 'tho as the Ely Impax powder load is only 10.93 grains and I could start off at 1/2 that with APS 450 / AS 50 N  and work up as I "hear" that it is one of the more slow burning powders, but again, nothing on the container or IDE Website confirming that ....SIGH


Ring cousin Wayne at the old Upper Hutt gun shop, him and his wife are into it. I’m sure he will be buying components

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## Micky Duck

in theory swapping fibre in and plastic out should if anything REDUCE pressure.....as its not as good of gas seal.some can leak past fibre wad as doesnt have flared skirt...reading the speil in lyman manual on wad progression last night gave that tit bit of info....

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## Kiwi Sapper

> Ring cousin Wayne at the old Upper Hutt gun shop, him and his wife are into it. Im sure he will be buying components


Hmmmmm. Good idea ....Once the Prime Monster permits us to get back to business, I shall.

Meantime I suppose I could consider using  the black powder loads in the brass hulls which I have for the sbs Hollis and sons hammer 12 bore.

Damn... I need a supplier for Eley Impax.2 1/2

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## Kiwi Sapper

> in theory swapping fibre in and plastic out should if anything REDUCE pressure.....as its not as good of gas seal.some can leak past fibre wad as doesnt have flared skirt..............


Agreed, that sounds logical, BUT I have also been presented with the argument that fibre wads will,  with pressure behind them, compress and expand sideways but plastic will not........My brain hurts.

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## Tedz50

Gun works would be worth a phone call as not every thing is on there websight.
I save my cases and a friend loads them with blackpowder for his W H Tisdall

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## Marty Henry

These are the details for target products who make the cowboy action I mentioned, talk to Simon Brown. He could possibly combine some with an order for wanganui clay target club or send it to Wilson's. 
Fibre wads can be greased if you wish with a light smear of grease on the edges but I don't bother just bang them in and blow them out.
If I was you I'd lay off the thinking a little bit while it's true they do expand to obturate so do plastic wads, but plastic is a bit slipper so a tad of grease may be more for peace of mind.
Contact us
Target Products (1978) Ltd.
OFFICE ADDRESS
31 Treneglos Street
Washdyke 7910

POSTAL ADDRESS
P.O. Box 2145
Washdyke
Timaru 7941
New Zealand

P: 03 688 2126
E: info@targetproducts.co.nz

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## Tedz50

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Gunsmithing & Technical|June 2017

When selecting ammunition, please consider the environmental impact of game shooting. We recommend using paper-case, fibre-wad loads, wherever possible. The cost differential is negligible and the benefits in-keeping with the conservation-minded aims of our sustainable sport.

Original chambers.

English guns of the pre-war period will usually be chambered for 2 1/2″ cases (ammunition now sold as 65mm).

Some wild-fowling and pigeon guns will be chambered for 2 3/4″ cases (ammunition now sold as 70mm).

A few wild-fowling guns were made with 3″ chambers (ammunition now sold as 76mm).

Some English guns, originally made with 2 1/2″ chambers, may have been altered and re-proof tested with 2 3/4″ chambers.

Case Lengths

Imperial                   Metric Equivalents

2 1/2″                         65mm / 67mm /67.5mm

2 3/4″                         70mm

3″                                76mm

This is from BGAC SITE


Suitable Ammunition for British Shotguns

We shoot British 65mm cased ammunition in all our guns (even those with 70mm chambers) We believe that modern ammunition, of quality in 65mm (2 1/2″) cases is equal to all normal game shooting activity. Most people over complicate the issue. As a practical measure, we use Gamebore Regal 28g and 30g 12-bore loads and Gamebore Regal 28g, 16-bore loads. No.6 shot with a fibre wad will kill anything you hit with it within 40 yards and these loads will be kind to your old guns as well.

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## Micky Duck

@Tedz50   maybe get your mate to get in touch directly with @Kiwi Sapper  will help ease his mind...and as your mate is reloading them he will be able to help out with load details for the old gal.....

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## Woody

Out of curiosity;  is duck shooting over water using lead shot and black powder loads legal?

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## Tedz50

We both load 65 gr 2Fg using these wads but I use brass cases.This is the same load and wads I use in my 12 bore Beretta and 13 bore Hollis muzzle loaders as the components used are pretty versatile.I suggest you get in contact with Jeff Brown at beaver grease if you want to reload but for the amount I shoot factory ammo works for the odd walk after a rabbit,plus I prefer muzzle loaders.

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## gsp follower

hunting and fishing manwatu used to have them even 2 inch ones.
deadeyedicks used to stock a fair selection of eleys to

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## Micky Duck

lead over water legal with MUZZLE LOADER....think it still is anyhow.

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## Woody

.ight get a blunderbuss  :Have A Nice Day:

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## Kiwi Sapper

> Attachment 175800Attachment 175801  We both load 65 gr 2Fg using these wads but I use brass cases.This is the same load and wads I use in my 12 bore Beretta and 13 bore Hollis muzzle loaders as the components used are pretty versatile.I suggest you get in contact with Jeff Brown at beaver grease if you want to reload but for the amount I shoot factory ammo works for the odd walk after a rabbit,plus I prefer muzzle loaders.


Thank you for your comments. I am awaiting the arrival of an order of those two types of wads from Track of the Wolf  but they are 11 Bore for a 180 yr old muzzle loader. 

Some time ago, when I came across that article, ( which you posted earlier, #16, ) and I pondered, on it's views on "  The Suitable Ammunition for British Shotguns" , I became a follower, which is why, now that I have an English gun along with a very small amount of Eley Impax,  I wish to attain details of a "load" similar to the Eley Impax. . Hopefully before I run out of the Eley.

But simple as that may sound, it is proving elusive to come by a  fibre wad load using powders available, (not black although I have already mentioned I may have to consider that)  for a 12 Bore, 2 1/2 inch chamber,  28.5 grms load or less and a PSI pressure that is unlikely to trouble a 71 year old E.J. Churchill.  SBS.

I have everything, hulls, primers, over powder wads, column height wads, shot load, over shot wad, crimp sussed, but not the powder.

I do not want to use plastic wads nor powder loads which create high pressures.  If I have to use Black powder and I don't want to in the Churchill, I would use the existing Black Powder, fibre wad, 1 oz load I already use in my 12 bore Hollis and Sons SBS Damascus.

I have been buying for some time from Jeff and the latest of his goodies to arrive are some of his 12 bore hard fibre wads. Are you suggesting that he may have a load "recipe" that meets my wishes? If so I can contact him.

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## Marty Henry

> lead over water legal with MUZZLE LOADER....think it still is anyhow.


Too late for this season now if it isn't

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## Kiwi Sapper

> .ight get a blunderbuss



Nah...........My mental picture of you is that one of these is more your style...........

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## Kiwi Sapper

> These are the details for target products who make the cowboy action I mentioned..........


Plastic wads.....................

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## Micky Duck

so just swap it out for fibre...and be done with it...try it in modern shotgun first....

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## GDMP

Eley still make both 2.5" and 2" 12 bore cartridges with fiber wads,and often with paper cases as well.....if its for a classic older gun surely ordering some of these might be the best bet.Maybe even a group buy?.

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## nowool

safe loading for older 2.5 inch barrels.
https://youtu.be/gHYAltIRL98

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## nowool

> Nah...........My mental picture of you is that one of these is more your style...........
> 
> Attachment 175833


i think i shot one of those last week...one in the wing and the other in the whining

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## nowool

> so just swap it out for fibre...and be done with it...try it in modern shotgun first....


yeah, why don't stuff a 7.62x54 up the chamber of a .303...all 3.11 diameter bullets the same!

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## nowool

> Nah...........My mental picture of you is that one of these is more your style...........
> 
> Attachment 175833


yeah, my mental pic of you is a uneducated WINZ 'client' who has a gun Illegally.

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## Micky Duck

> yeah, why don't stuff a 7.62x54 up the chamber of a .303...all 3.11 diameter bullets the same!


come on fella,thats a bit harsh.......I dont put up suggestions like that lightly and a wad exchange will alter pressure BUT not to gun blow up levels..... an ill fitting fibre wab that wont seal bore as efficently as a plastic skirted wad will have less pressure than the plastic if basic physics are applied......
feel free to correct me if Im wrong.
and for what its worth there is at least one 7.62x54R SMLE around and working fine.....new barrel and all,gets shot out to respectable range too.....

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## Micky Duck

> safe loading for older 2.5 inch barrels.
> https://youtu.be/gHYAltIRL98


PLASTIC WADS........... so you have contributed no more intelligence into discussion as anyone else,nore a solution fitting the brief.

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## Kiwi Sapper

> Eley still make both 2.5" and 2" 12 bore cartridges with fiber wads,and often with paper cases as well.....if its for a classic older gun surely ordering some of these might be the best bet.Maybe even a group buy?.


That I understand and did point out I knew of them in my opening post of this thread.  Further, a kind gun owner , after being approached by Wilson's Hunting and Outdoors supplied me with 50 rounds. Just what I want and which of course could be reloaded after use. 
I also have the ability to reduce hulls greater than 2 1/2 inch to 2 1/2 inch, have suitable wads, an MEC that will reload 2 1/2 inch hulls and suitable shot along with a collection of fired and unfired paper hulls. 

But that still leaves me pondering about a suitable powder.

Charts for "Lead shot English Game Loads" , sourced from Ballistic Products give loads using Hogdons "Titewad" and Alliant Bullseye, but I have neither. However, I do have Trail Boss which the ADI web site states is their comparable product for Bullseye ......_Oohh Errrrrrrrrr......._Dare I? 

https://tinyurl.com/yp4b9d7f

So I'll probably load a couple of hulls with Trailboss ( which I have) in lieu of Bullseye along with Ballistic Products recommended fibre wads and a less than 1 ounce load for a test in a modern day boom stick. When I get up the courage  and trust that no wool doesn't report me to Constable Plod or WINZ. :>)

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## GDMP

Just use the correct powder the recipe calls for....that should go without saying.If you have none then obtain some.

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## Kiwi Sapper

> Just use the correct powder the recipe calls for....that should go without saying.If you have none then obtain some.



*Of course* I must use the correct powder the recipe calls for.
*Of course* I must, if I don't have it, then obtain some.

However, you ignore that I have already pointed out that ADI powders website states that their  Trail Boss is equivalent to Alliant's Bullseye" which is equivalent to IMR's Trail Boss, subject to:

_"Note: This table shows only approximate equivalent values within about 5%. Actual burning rates can vary depending on the calibre, firearm, loading components and practices, as well as from powder lot to lot. As a consequence, it must be understood that Australian Munitions cannot accept any responsibility for the use of this information in any way._"

However, if you can tell me how I can get either Hogdon's Titewad or Alliant's Bullseye then I would be most grateful because the current powder shortages and inability of any of them to be sent around the country is a problem.

Telling me the obvious however, does not attract any gratitude.

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## GDMP

Substituting powders for shotgun reloading is not a good idea,for reasons of safety.Surely you must know that.You assume that the cowboy 2.5" shells are not in stock at Gunworks,have you actually asked?.Most of the shells they stock are not listed on their website....

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## GDMP

Right....this place has them....and Gunworks also has them,at $136 a slab.......https://www.shooterssupplies.co.nz/p...on-22212-slab/

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## Kiwi Sapper

> Right....this place has them....and Gunworks also has them,at $136 a slab.......https://www.shooterssupplies.co.nz/p...on-22212-slab/


Sadly, Not So

Gunworks..............Everything we have is on our website and so I dont think we have what you need sorry

Shooterssupplies........Nil stock.

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## Woody

Have a look at Hogdons HS6 or 7 and aggod look at their other shotgun rl data.

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## Quackers

Ah hs6.. Sim to win 540 powder. I'll have a look I may have some spare of that.

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## Kiwi Sapper

> Right....this place has them....and Gunworks also has them,at $136 a slab.......https://www.shooterssupplies.co.nz/p...on-22212-slab/


 @GDMP  My gratitude and thanks Grant, for your perseverance in locating a couple of slabs of 2 1/2 inch cartridges. The pressure, FPS and shot load are just what I was seeking .The plastic wads I will have to live with until reloading time when I can address that using the information and fibre wads I have obtained from Ballistic  Products.     https://tinyurl.com/yukbbrt2

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## GDMP

Like most things in life,its just a matter of talking to the right person......

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## petepuss

i use winchester aa cases cut to 2.5'', w209 primers ,16.8grains as30n from adi,hard card over powder wad,fiber wad to size for crimp.pressure is less than 7000 psi and velocity is just shy of 1200fps
i have used this load for about 3 years now and have had no problems ,its also a good load for teaching kids as there is stuff all kick

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## Quackers

Anyone no where to source fiber wads from after some for 12 gauge .

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## Micky Duck

anyone heard from kiwi sapper????

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## GDMP

You could try Beaver Grease in ChCh.....Jeff may be able to help you with the 12 ga fibre wads.....

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