200 grain cast bullets in .357 magnum cases

I've successfully reloaded cartridges for three different calibres 'by the book', but now I want to use a heavy projectile that I can't find any suitable data for.

My goal is to have a .357 magnum cartridge which will allow me to shoot 200 grain cast projectiles around 1050 fps. These will be used primarily in a Bergara BA13 single-shot, although if they feed through my Rossi Puma I might use them in that as well.

I have loaded .357 cartridges with subsonic 125 and 158 grain projectiles, and these have worked well on the few goats and pigs that I've shot with them. However I want something with more power before I tackle deer. I know that what I already have would suffice if I am careful, but I'd rather have a bit more energy.

I've played around with subsonics in .303 and .308, and at the time I was bothered by the lack of expansion. While appropriate expansion is a good thing, I now think of all the animals we shot with military .303 bullets that just passed through (although some bullets must have tumbled... and if a bone was hit there could be quite a mess). And, like I said, my 158 grain subsonics have worked well on game and they probably didn't deform much. I haven't managed to find one yet.

Anyway.... that is the background to my project.

Now I'd appreciate any input regarding my desired goal. The projectile is most likely to be cast in a Lee C358-200-RF mould, but I don't yet have the mould and I am open to suggestions. I already have CCI standard small rifle primers, Trail Boss and AP70N powers. The ADI online reloading data stops at 180 grain projectiles. I know that it would be safe to try an uncompressed load of Trail Boss, but I reckon the maximum possible load will not provide the velocity I seek. I have seen some old data suggesting that 6 grains of Alliant Unique or 8.4 grains of Vihtavuori N105 would probably be suitable - but this is old data and I'd prefer to see recently published stuff. I understand that AP70N is close in performance to Unique, but I can't be certain of how things are nowadays.

Browsing the internet, it seems that there are plenty of shooters using 200 grain cast bullets in their .357 magnum firearms. Although I fully understand why, it is frustrating that their reloading recipes aren't freely published in many cases. Some guys are using W296 or Hodgdon H110 which is meant to be equivalent to ADI2205. I've never used this powder, but I'm a little scared of it having read so many warnings about the dangers of 'underloading'... the necessity of using magnum primers with it.... and the way a little bit extra can add a whole lot more pressure. It isn't the sort of thing I want to leave a can of for my grandchildren to inherit. But... if I can be convinced that it will give me a safe load for my project, it is a powder I can get hold of.

I believe it is possible to 'work up' a load using a rifle with a strong action, using common sense in comparing other loads, and working slowly and carefully while all the time looking for signs of excessive pressure. I could do this I guess. I am not an expert.

Thanks in advance... best wishes from Nelson.

I would start with the minimum load for 158grn and work up if I felt like it.

Your 200 grainers will extend a wee bit further into the case,so you will have less volume to worry about.

Are the loads you have found revolver or Rifle loads?
357 can be run pretty hot in a rifle.

Just record what you do,take it slowly and enjoy yourself.

I recently worked up a load for a Rifle without any published data for any powder I can get here.You have a starting point and quite a bit more steel round the breech.

Thanks for the encouraging responses.

I'm not sure whether the data I found for the 200 grain bullets was intended for pistol or rifle.... but I'm thinking the Vihtavuori figures may have been intended for pistols seeing that their internet site seems to list .357 only under pistol data. The estimated pressure for the relevant Alliant loads is 33,900 psi, and the Vihtavuori chart shows 35,000 psi.

I too have trouble with the concept of under-loading. Sure, it can be dangerous if a bullet gets stuck in the barrel and the shooter doesn't realise it.... but apart from that I simply don't get it. Mind you, there are a lot of things I don't know much about yet.

A while back I sent a query to the ADI technical department, asking if I had to use magnum primers with the ADI AR2205. They replied by saying that magnum primers are not necessary for the ignition of their powders... but they did carefully point out that different primers will affect pressure. I'm pretty certain that the standard primers will ignite anything. A couple of days ago I wanted a shell case for doing some volume experiments... but I'd fitted new primers to all my empties. So I loaded a primed case into the 16" Rossi and pulled the trigger. I saw orange flames at the end of the barrel.

I recently wrote ADI another query relating to the 200 grain projectiles. I felt a bit bad bothering them considering that half their continent is on fire, but reloading is pretty important too. I imagine that their response will be a cautious one.

Heh. Just got a response from ADI. It was a nice letter, but did not have the answer I am craving for. They wrote: "Unfortunately we do not have any test load data for .357 Magnum with 200 grain lead
projectiles". They explained that I could experiment with Trail Boss. They did not respond at all to my statement that I had figures for Unique powder which appears on the ADI chart as a close equivalent to ADI AP70N. Fair enough, I understand the position they have to take.

Hi Coote,

I have shot these for years in my 357Mag & 357 Super mag pistols . ADI 2205 is the bully with these.
I'll post them tonight.

Ihmsakiwi... great !! Thank you. Now I need to get the mould. Reloaders don't have them at present. I see there is an Australian crowd selling one on Ebay.

Hi coote
I've had a look and like you didn't find much, someone with quickload should have data for you.
My lyman has pistol data on the 195 cast which could give a starting base.
KH

Thanks Kiwi-Hunter. That information is good food for thought. The 2400 powder gets mentioned a lot, but ADI don't have an exact equivalent... their closest being AR2205, which is very likely the powder I will end up using. I ordered the Lee C358-200-RF mould this afternoon. Hope you are continuing to have fun down in your part of the island. Best wishes....

Yes Coote
I used the 2400 in 357 but only loading 158g.
Tentman+ might be kind enough to run the data in quickload and it should give best powders and what to stay away from.
Ive had tentman run loads for me and in load development its a good tool.
No doubt someone would of played with 200 cast.
I have some 158? cast I want to get rid of.
I am just to used to shooting copper jacket !less mess.
The last lot of 2400 I got off Richard Wilhelm.
KH

What type are the cast projectiles you want to get rid of Kiwi-Hunter?

@Coote, I think ADI should have elaborated a bit better for you.

Anecdote: with a mild load of 2205 and CCI 300's in a 16" 44 Mag, I got globs of unburned powder in the barrel and glowing lumps of it shooting downrange. It took a near max load, a firm crimp, and a CCI 350 before the powder really started doing what it was supposed to.

There's got to be enough sustained heat and pressure in the chamber/barrel to get a powder going properly and sustain the burn, if you want to get the most out of it. So... Will powders ignite with standard primers? Yes, definitely... Is the affect on pressure (i.e. of a magnum primer) that ADI alluded to sometimes necessary to help create the circumstances for certain powders to perform properly in certain applications? Also yes.

Ah, that is good info thanks PommyMcPomFace. Just the sort of thing I need to know. Theory is important, but anecdotes from someone with experience are really valuable. Whereas a lot of reloaders over the years have been pursuing maximum power, all I want for now is a decent subsonic load for the 200 grain bullet. Eventually I am likely to want to play with some gas checks and maximum loads, so anything related to this cartridge is interesting. Things are pretty busy for me for the next few months, but soon I will be collecting the Government Super and I should have plenty of time for playing with bullets.

If I've posted this image before, please forgive me. This is the biggest animal I've bagged with a .357 magnum, and I was just using 125 grain cast bullets (Lee 358-125-RF) at around 1050 fps. The pig was close and one shot to the head did the trick. However I'm keen to get the 200 grain cast subsonics up and running in case I come across a deer... or maybe another pig like this one where I have to take a shoulder shot.

https://i.imgur.com/o9ZaPgr.jpg

@Coote
ADI shows max load of 18gns 2205 with 140gn Hornady FTX projectile. I can tell you from this mornings efforts, the most you will get in the case is 13.5gns assuming you need it to function thru a lever action magazine. No idea what the velocity will be yet
I may have a spare tin of 2205 if you need some as I am looking for max velocity for the 140s

Thanks for that Mikee. When my mould finally arrives my initial experiments will be with AP70N since I have some already.... my first goal is to have some heavy, subsonic loads. After that though, I want to have faster loads for longer ranges where noise isn't a problem. So I might need that 2205 thank you... if you finally decide it is surplus. I dunno what other powder you might use to get that speed, most data I've seen for higher velocities is an AR2205 equivalent.... mind you, I haven't spent much time researching that.

What are you planning to shoot with those 140 grainers?

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Originally Posted by Coote

Thanks for that Mikee. When my mould finally arrives my initial experiments will be with AP70N since I have some already.... my first goal is to have some heavy, subsonic loads. After that though, I want to have faster loads for longer ranges where noise isn't a problem. So I might need that 2205 thank you... if you finally decide it is surplus. I dunno what other powder you might use to get that speed, most data I've seen for higher velocities is an AR2205 equivalent.... mind you, I haven't spent much time researching that.

What are you planning to shoot with those 140 grainers?

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The general idea is I wanted something that was easy carrying and something I could throw in the truck when I am out and about with the dog, just in case we bumped into something a bit bigger than a wabbit.

May try Lil Gun next

Ooh... Simon, that is good data thank you. I've never seen a Vihtavuori book before. I think Kelly Country down here stock some types of Vihtavuori. Much appreciated. And Nigel from Kelly Country was talking to me about Lil Gun recently... so they may be able to get that too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coote

Ooh... Simon, that is good data thank you. I've never seen a Vihtavuori book before. I think Kelly Country down here stock some types of Vihtavuori. Much appreciated. And Nigel from Kelly Country was talking to me about Lil Gun recently... so they may be able to get that too.

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Google “marvin stuart reloading” there is a collection of old school reloading data taken from a number of manuals compiled into a single PDF.
Limited Calibers but there is one for 357 magnum.
Stumbled across it some time back when looking for loads for 7.62x39.


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Thank you Simon, it will be handy. I like the 7.62 x 39. Years ago my Dad got some military-style ammo in that calibre and he converted a couple of Lee-Enfields so they'd shoot it. One of these old rifles had open sights and I was delighted to shoot a deer at maybe 120 yards away with it. The deer was shot through the heart, but it took me a long time to find it. It had fallen in some 'bonsai' manuka not far from where it had been hit. I smelled it before I saw it.

I wonder if CFE BLK might be worth trying

I think CFE BLK would be a good powder to experiment with. Never heard of it until now thanks. I haven't measured the volumes of the cases, but at a glance the 300 Blackout and a .357 magnum don't seem to be too different.

EDIT: Just checked out the Hodgdon data site. That powder seems to be ideal for subsonic loads, and the pressures quoted are relatively low. I reckon it could be the stuff to use if you can't quite fit enough Trail Boss in the case.

The other good book is the RCBS reloading book which had data for the 200 grainer I am sure.
I thought I still had the book but can't locate at present. I may have sold it when I got out of pistols however.

Also check out this site. excellent people and loads of information.

Looking for suggested starting load for 200gr RCBS FN-GC in .357mag w/Hod. Lil'Gun

Thanks Ihmsakiwi. That is an encouraging forum page. There certainly seems to be a heap of enthusiastic reloaders in the USA.

For a long time I wished I could shoot pistols and especially take one out hunting. That hankering diminished after a while, although to this day I'd love to be able to legally carry one in the bush. However, I reckon my little Rossi 92 .357 provides me with a lot of the fun I'd have had with a pistol.... plus, at least for me, it is more likely to hit a target.