Thread: .223 for the Roar

Horses for courses. I use 55g .223 for most of my hunting. Never shot a stag in the roar. I’d be inclined to take a bigger cal….if specifically targeting roaring stags/bucks…. Different story if ‘happen’ to come across one whilst after a hind/doe/goat/pig with the mighty .223.

BYW …nice wife for buying a classy rifle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For every single story of a stag absorbing 10lb of big caliber lead and copper there will be 20 stories about a .222 or .223 knocking one over with a single well placed shot. The exception is the former, not the latter.

@JohnDuxbury…

The Speer 70gr is my goto bullet in the .223 when chasing goats and deer. I’ve been using it regularly for about 2 years I guess.

I’ll echo @Tahr’s comments and tell you not to use it for shoulder shots on big stags. I would definitely not want that bullet connecting with the humerus or scapula after heavy shoulder muscles as I couldn’t in all honestly say it would give you the penetration you’d ideally want.

I’ve shot a good number of yearling reds, mature hinds, some very heavy / hairy billy goats and several fallow in recent months, but in all instances I’ve deliberately used a different point of aim - high neck (atlas joint), the crease shot when quartering away, front brisket with deer standing facing me, between the shoulders looking down on the animal. I’m struggling to think of a single instance in any of those shots where the bullet has exited. But in all instances it has been a very fast (mostly instantaneous) kill.

It’s a fantastic wee bullet when used in this manner but definitely not a good choice for a pinning shot through both shoulders. Not something I would take with me if I anticipated some pressured, close range snapshots, I don’t want the 308 for that.

What velocity have you got the 70 grain Speer going in your rifle?

We had this conversation on here a little while ago and I said I would look at the raw Chrono data because I know I had to up the velocity to validate the drop I was getting at 300m, it was quite a lot less than I thought it would be. I actually messaged Spear asking them if they had got the BC right on that bullet but it never got resolved.

anyway I never did go and find the data so give me a little while and I’ll see if I’ve still got it on the one laptop. Note that it is a properly worked up but nonetheless quite hot load. Also 20” barrel.

Either way the adjusted velocity used to match the drop data (using Strelok trajectory validation) is good enough for me to happily place that bullet right where I want it at 250-300m so all’s good. Last time out I was sent on a goat dog tucker mission with instructions to only head shoot and I had no difficulty knocking them over at commendable ranges so I’m happy with the trajectory validation.

With the 70grn and 20" I would be looking for in the 2,900 fps range. But less won't affect the terminal performance much, just the trajectory.

I've only got 2730 fps to work with, with the powders I have.
My fastest load is 2784 with a different powder, but the accuracy goes to hell. (The most accurate is 2677 fps.)

But seriously, I am shooting things at less than a hundred metres, and average would be around 25 metres. I don't really have a trajectory.

Righto. I'm using ADI 2208, a tad above the max book load. I took it to the point of a slight ejector swipe on the cartridge head and then backed off a touch. ADI brass, bullet seated longer than book specs.



When I shot the drop tests, with a 100m zero I was seeing a lot less drop at 200m and 300m that I expected. So I ended up increasing the velocity to 3133fps but I also changed the BC to 0.241 from the published 0.214, which I thought might have been a typo. This is what I asked Speer about but the tech there wasn't convinced. However I remember looking at a couple of other bullets like the Sierra equivalent and they were more like 0.24 so that's what I selected.

Works for me. Dead on at 300m, smoke-a-goat.

Originally Posted by Flyblown

Righto. I'm using ADI 2208, a tad above the max book load. I took it to the point of a slight ejector swipe on the cartridge head and then backed off a touch. ADI brass, bullet seated longer than book specs.

Attachment 193468

When I shot the drop tests, with a 100m zero I was seeing a lot less drop at 200m and 300m that I expected. So I ended up increasing the velocity to 3133fps but I also changed the BC to 0.241 from the published 0.214, which I thought might have been a typo. This is what I asked Speer about but the tech there wasn't convinced. However I remember looking at a couple of other bullets like the Sierra equivalent and they were more like 0.24 so that's what I selected.

Works for me. Dead on at 300m, smoke-a-goat.

...you've got a 16 inch barrel? I cant get anywhere near those velocities with 2208 and my 20 inch barrel. You must have a tighter chamber or bore. With 26 grains of 2208 I get 2784fps. I can get 27.5 grains flush with the top of the case mouth and then I have to heavily compress it, which is doable but it was creeping out a bit later....so I took them apart again. And this is with .223 brass, not the ex mil ADI stuff, (which I understood has less capacity?)
Whats your charge weight for the 3133 fps ?

Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

...you've got a 16 inch barrel? I cant get anywhere near those velocities with 2208 and my 20 inch barrel. You must have a tighter chamber or bore. With 26 grains of 2208 I get 2784fps. I can get 27.5 grains flush with the top of the case mouth and then I have to heavily compress it, which is doable but it was creeping out a bit later....so I took them apart again. And this is with .223 brass, not the ex mil ADI stuff, (which I understood has less capacity?)
Whats your charge weight for the 3133 fps ?

No, I have a 20” barrel (see above).

Charge weight is 26.2gr 2208, 2.240” COAL so longer than the book spec by some margin, so this load isn’t compressed. Remember the 3133fps is an artificially increased velocity to meet the drop tested ballistics (along with the >BC).

Book speeds for the 24” barrel are about the same as my chrono values with the 20”, so a bit faster than I expected but not dramatically so. The Howa barrels have - for me - been faster than other manufacturers from the get go, and get faster as they break in after a couple hundred shots. This is evident not just with the .223 but also my two 6mm rifles and my 6.5mm, they are all faster than their Tikka counterparts for the same approximate load.

Also the brass is Aussie bought Thales retail stuff, not the ex-military spec stuff. It’s stamped ADI but the headstamp isn’t the normal milsurp style, plus the H2O capacity is in line with other non-mil brands. I have a heap of military spec ADI 7.62 brass here and that’s a totally different kettle of fish to normal .308 brass.

And lastly, this batch of 2208 is definitely faster than the previous batch I had, because when I first loaded the 308 with it I got an immediate POI change (higher) and had to re-do the drop tests. It resulted in a re-validated MV about 50fps more than before.

Well if it were me, I’d be choosing the 70gr Speer because of the sectional density. Stags are thick through the engine room, so I’d want as much penetration as I could get. A 50-53gr Barnes may penetrate further, but my gut feel is the wound channel of the 70gr will be wider and bleed faster.

The 70gr is too soft for 100% reliability on big stag shoulders @Hunter_Nick, that’s my take on it. The softness is a positive for engine room shots angled in, avoiding the heavy muscle and bone, but even after avoiding all but a rib bone or brisket the bullets I’ve recovered have been in bits ‘n’ pieces and just the shank remaining.

Technically, according to Speer, its a varmint bullet, these days it’s sold as the “Varmint Soft Point”. But its definitely stouter than a V-Max and Speer say it is “controlled expansion”. (It’s not, it’s just a bit harder than a proper varmint bullet.) So I sectioned one for a look see, whilst the jacket is thin the lead compound is harder than a V-Max, at least in my rudimentary scratch test comparison. So I wouldn’t call it controlled expansion, whereas the bonded Speer Gold Dot I definitely would.

It’s an old school bullet that has been around for years. My yankee cuz put me onto it, he told me that originally it was a popular whitetail bullet before the days of “controlled expansion” and maximum penetration become the fad and everyone wanted bonded bullets and monolithics and big exit holes. I switched to it because it was cheap, available in decent quantities and unfussy, and I prefer softer bullets that mushroom easily and partially fragment.

Use the 70gr Speer. I used them for years out of a 222 and had no issues with stags.
It sounds like you know the rules, aim small, avoid the near side shoulder blade.
You will be astounded how well stays die with such a little projectile.

Well, I have been listening to you guys, so I went back and leaned on my 70 grains loads a little bit. Figuring I cant get enough 2208 in a .223 case to hurt anything too badly, I now have the 70 grainers going 2988fps for a 1.1 inch group.
I figure this is a warmish load. But normal extraction and I can still neck size the cases and use them again. Allowing for the shorter barrel length, it will have to be around the same pressures as the book max.

Sounds like you’re in the ballpark to me. My 6x45 sends a 70gr pill at 2950fps from an 18” barrel. Could go hotter, but not by much, it’s on the ragged edge really….
That’s with H322, a good deal faster powder than 2208. I would have thought that 2206H would be the ticket for heavies in the .223, but I wouldn’t go against @Flyblown on this one.