Thread: .223 Subsonic

So, looked at notes.Howa 16' 1:8 barrel with Sonic 35 suppressor.
AS50N powder. Currently loading 7.3gr powder under 55gr Hornady V-Max. av vel. 1911 fps @ 10m. 5mm/3 shot group @ 50m. Kills goats @50m and reasonably quiet.
Have tried loads from 7-7.9gr. 7gr was still supersonic and 7mm groups, 7.9 was 2026 fps, 7mm group.
Red Dot powder, have tried from 8 down to 4gr powder under same projectiles. 6gr RD was about 1700fps. Can't find target at moment but 4gr is subsonic but ES was a bit erratic. Havn't persisted with this load for now but will try and fine tune at some point. 5gr is super sonic, worked on two magpies at around 50m this morning.
Hope this gives you some idea where to start possibly @BOBINNZ
Don't know if @shooternz on here casts 22 projectiles, gas checked, but he might be worth asking.

woods223 those load levels sort of suggest that your red dot is on par/plurry close to, trailboss..eg a 4-5 grn charge is right on the sound barrier with 55grn pill.
Ive got as50n here too...... that load youve shown is pretty much a magnum/hornet level load ,definately a niche load...great for finishing off stuff without the blast/boom of full noise load.
thanks for looking them up to share.

You're right - the main issue with sub loads in anything is expansion. Effectively with .223 you are attempting to turn it into a .22 rimfire - this requires a bulky fast powder and one of the better options when it's back available is TrailBoss as everyone keeps pointing to. Issues with TB are it's a smokey powder and some have complained that it can leave a lot of crud not sure if that actually affects anything though - and the obvious issues with availability at the moment.

One of the next best options is Red Dot fast pistol and shotshell powder - I'm told it runs about the 70% density of TB range which means it will still be possible to double charge or overcharge a case with it. One of the issues with RD and other super fast powders is that they have an almost 'instant on' pressure curve (read it's near vertical on the graph) then dropping away as the bullet progresses down the barrel so the only thing limiting the amount of pressure in the gun on firing is the amount of powder you put in. Put to much in and you blow up your gun... On the other hand, don't put enough in and you risk the pill not exiting and you blow up your gun on the next firing with an obstructed barrel.

With Red Dot, it appears you can't load too light for ignition and firing pressure hazard purposes though - the only real risk at the low end appears to be insignificant pressure created to kick the bullet out of the barrel leading to an obstructed bore. RD burns so quickly that there doesn't seem to be much risk with the position in the case as used to happen with much slower powders, where the powder lying along the full length of the bottom of the case exposed a LOT more surface area to the primer flame than expected and resulted in a much quicker burn than usual which steepened the pressure curve to dangerous levels. With slower powders, a lot of the powder burn continues outside of the barrel where the increase in pressure just creates noise (muzzle blast) and flash. This is one reason why faster powders can be loaded to be a lot quieter - the lower volume of powder can be consumed in the barrel rather than out in the air.

With these faster powders and slower loads, the general procedure seems to start with finding a safe starting load for the combination of case, bullet, primer and powder which is within 10% or so of max and trying it out for performance. You start with the suppressor removed, checking for stability and velocity and then drop the powder charge slowly until you get to around 1050-1080fps or so. Much slower than that and I'd be concerned about a non-exit (check after each round), but your mileage might vary especially if you're running into large elevation and temperature variations in your shooting areas. Once you hit the velocity you want, it's reliable, and the bullet proves stable then chuck the suppressor back on and test that it functions correctly. Some people have reported that they found the pills went supersonic after rehanging the suppressor on, possibly the bullet was getting a little extra kick in the extra length of contained gas so they had to work the powder charge down a little (but better a bit of a crack than a big boom from a blocked barrel).

As far as the pill - a bit of a hard one as you need a reliable source of soft near-pure lead for expansion at subsonic speeds. A lot of lead like wheel weights has tin in it to improve the flow characteristics of the lead in the mold but that also makes the lead harder. This is where I think the commercial subs are a little lacking nowadays, they chuck tin etc into the brew to be able to cast or stamp the wire cores reliably without quality control issues and sending things back for rework. Ideally you want something will the biggest hole in the end of it you can get, that still fits in the magazine and loads and chambers OK. You don't need aerodynamic performance as subsonic rounds don't travel that far, blunt is good. If it opens to four times the surface area, more the better. Energy transfer is what you want, the ones I was using a while back (don't have the contact details of the guy who was making them unfortunately) were pretty bloody good, he was using a drink can disc as a gas check and loading into .22H cases. Don't know what the mold was either but a plain pill with gas check and hollowpoint. Roughly the junction of the thick post to the thinner wire below the crosshair was the 80m or so aiming mark with a bit of guesstimate at other ranges - surprisingly effective with the option of full house loads at anything longer. More effective than .22LR at any rate.

Forgot to mention in previous post
Have tried Hornady V-Max, Hornady 50gr SPSX #2240,Sierra 55 Spiitzer #1360, Speer Varmint 55SP #4711. All work on goats ok. Currently using V-Max because got given a few packets and they're accurate. The Speer's work equally as well, maybe a bit better. The Sierra's just start bringing the Scotch out in me at $58/100. Have shot about 150 goats so far trialling these loads. Still a work in Progess but satisfied so far.
Trailboss is a far easier powder to work with but I'm tending to save that for my 308 due to lack of supply.

Yep, if you can find a very lightly constructed varmint bullet they often make very acceptable sub loads with quite good controlled expansion at the slower speeds. For a while we were using .218 Bee pills in the Hornet - these were varmint type bullets designed for the .218Bee cases with a meaty flat face and a concave with I recall 6 slits in them - aerodynamics of a cinderblock but bloody awesome terminal effects. Fallow dropped like they'd been hit by lightening. Often didn't take a step... Not sure if these are still available though?

This is where I got my Bluedot load from.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...6/223_Blue_Dot

The Rusa 55gn CMJ projectiles I use appear to work well.
They are accurate in my gun and deform easily as they are copper coated lead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by woods223

So, looked at notes.Howa 16' 1:8 barrel with Sonic 35 suppressor.
AS50N powder. Currently loading 7.3gr powder under 55gr Hornady V-Max. av vel. 1911 fps @ 10m. 5mm/3 shot group @ 50m. Kills goats @50m and reasonably quiet.
Have tried loads from 7-7.9gr. 7gr was still supersonic and 7mm groups, 7.9 was 2026 fps, 7mm group.
Red Dot powder, have tried from 8 down to 4gr powder under same projectiles. 6gr RD was about 1700fps. Can't find target at moment but 4gr is subsonic but ES was a bit erratic. Havn't persisted with this load for now but will try and fine tune at some point. 5gr is super sonic, worked on two magpies at around 50m this morning.
Hope this gives you some idea where to start possibly @BOBINNZ
Don't know if @shooternz on here casts 22 projectiles, gas checked, but he might be worth asking.

Probably should have mentioned that the 7.3gr AS50N load shoots near enough dead on @ 50m without altering scope from normal HV ammo setting for Belmont Black.

Originally Posted by No.3

You're right - the main issue with sub loads in anything is expansion. Effectively with .223 you are attempting to turn it into a .22 rimfire - this requires a bulky fast powder and one of the better options when it's back available is TrailBoss as everyone keeps pointing to. Issues with TB are it's a smokey powder and some have complained that it can leave a lot of crud not sure if that actually affects anything though - and the obvious issues with availability at the moment.

One of the next best options is Red Dot fast pistol and shotshell powder - I'm told it runs about the 70% density of TB range which means it will still be possible to double charge or overcharge a case with it. One of the issues with RD and other super fast powders is that they have an almost 'instant on' pressure curve (read it's near vertical on the graph) then dropping away as the bullet progresses down the barrel so the only thing limiting the amount of pressure in the gun on firing is the amount of powder you put in. Put to much in and you blow up your gun... On the other hand, don't put enough in and you risk the pill not exiting and you blow up your gun on the next firing with an obstructed barrel.

With Red Dot, it appears you can't load too light for ignition and firing pressure hazard purposes though - the only real risk at the low end appears to be insignificant pressure created to kick the bullet out of the barrel leading to an obstructed bore. RD burns so quickly that there doesn't seem to be much risk with the position in the case as used to happen with much slower powders, where the powder lying along the full length of the bottom of the case exposed a LOT more surface area to the primer flame than expected and resulted in a much quicker burn than usual which steepened the pressure curve to dangerous levels. With slower powders, a lot of the powder burn continues outside of the barrel where the increase in pressure just creates noise (muzzle blast) and flash. This is one reason why faster powders can be loaded to be a lot quieter - the lower volume of powder can be consumed in the barrel rather than out in the air.

With these faster powders and slower loads, the general procedure seems to start with finding a safe starting load for the combination of case, bullet, primer and powder which is within 10% or so of max and trying it out for performance. You start with the suppressor removed, checking for stability and velocity and then drop the powder charge slowly until you get to around 1050-1080fps or so. Much slower than that and I'd be concerned about a non-exit (check after each round), but your mileage might vary especially if you're running into large elevation and temperature variations in your shooting areas. Once you hit the velocity you want, it's reliable, and the bullet proves stable then chuck the suppressor back on and test that it functions correctly. Some people have reported that they found the pills went supersonic after rehanging the suppressor on, possibly the bullet was getting a little extra kick in the extra length of contained gas so they had to work the powder charge down a little (but better a bit of a crack than a big boom from a blocked barrel).

As far as the pill - a bit of a hard one as you need a reliable source of soft near-pure lead for expansion at subsonic speeds. A lot of lead like wheel weights has tin in it to improve the flow characteristics of the lead in the mold but that also makes the lead harder. This is where I think the commercial subs are a little lacking nowadays, they chuck tin etc into the brew to be able to cast or stamp the wire cores reliably without quality control issues and sending things back for rework. Ideally you want something will the biggest hole in the end of it you can get, that still fits in the magazine and loads and chambers OK. You don't need aerodynamic performance as subsonic rounds don't travel that far, blunt is good. If it opens to four times the surface area, more the better. Energy transfer is what you want, the ones I was using a while back (don't have the contact details of the guy who was making them unfortunately) were pretty bloody good, he was using a drink can disc as a gas check and loading into .22H cases. Don't know what the mold was either but a plain pill with gas check and hollowpoint. Roughly the junction of the thick post to the thinner wire below the crosshair was the 80m or so aiming mark with a bit of guesstimate at other ranges - surprisingly effective with the option of full house loads at anything longer. More effective than .22LR at any rate.

I am trying to get my head around the reason for using fast burning powders for subsonic and not just lowering the normal powder.

Hi Bob
i use the faster powder because of the short barrel [no flame @ night ]
and also because of a short burn [quick burn ] rate the push behind the pill is just a jab rather than a full power haymaker swing
if using a slow burn powder the push is over the longer length of a long barrel,
but becareful of using a fast burn powder on full loads as the pressure will spike real quick
cheers

Originally Posted by BOBINNZ

I am trying to get my head around the reason for using fast burning powders for subsonic and not just lowering the normal powder.

Lowering the load of a "normal powder" will not work for the following reasons
Smokeless powders burn rate depends on a few things grain size, the use of graphite or other retardent coating and most importantly PRESSURE and dwell time. The higher the pressure the faster the burn rate, retardents are used to control initial burn as is grain size. The idea being a steady increase in velocity and pressure. Shotguns and pistols use much faster burning powders as the requirements are different and a quick boot up the arse works best for them.
A reduced charge of normal powder behind a light bullet will result in inconsistent ignition and lots of unburnt powder in the bore both of which do nothing for accuracy.

This thread really seems to be about solving a non issue. All centre fires that can legally throw a subsonic .22 cal pill are bolt or lever action. Throwing a pill that almost certainly won't expand like a pure lead hollowpoint 22LR sub will. If centrefire semis were still around, they would not cycle with subs.

A .22 semi will permit you to rapidly throw 10 x 42 grain lumps of beautifully expanding lead at whatever quarry you are after.

For a centre fire to be capable of throwing a useful size lump of lead at a pest, you need to be starting at 30 cal.

Only mtcw.

I was purely thinking(maybe not) of sending a double weight of lead at the bunny!! 40gn .22 and 75gn .223. Now looking at placement using Laser on the 22. Going to get me/make me a lump of ballistics gel to see the terminal performance of the ammo I have! Just for piece of mind. Thanx to everyone for your input!

a couple of plastic milk bottles filled with water are much cheaper and will show you similar thing.....
the same comparison has been made with .30calibre subsonics of different weights...if 150s are already going through and through...going to 200grn gains nothing...the hole is still only the same size.

Originally Posted by XR500

This thread really seems to be about solving a non issue. All centre fires that can legally throw a subsonic .22 cal pill are bolt or lever action. Throwing a pill that almost certainly won't expand like a pure lead hollowpoint 22LR sub will. If centrefire semis were still around, they would not cycle with subs.

A .22 semi will permit you to rapidly throw 10 x 42 grain lumps of beautifully expanding lead at whatever quarry you are after.

For a centre fire to be capable of throwing a useful size lump of lead at a pest, you need to be starting at 30 cal.

Only mtcw.

Finishing rounds, or lower report (read virtually silent) for a niche use or on a specific property. There are reasons to make this interesting, one being the ban on rimfire and. 22 hornet on crown land.

Originally Posted by BOBINNZ

I am trying to get my head around the reason for using fast burning powders for subsonic and not just lowering the normal powder.

Reducing slower powders below the posted safe lower limit is dangerous, for two reasons:

One, the more powder available to be ignited by the primer flame the higher the pressure spike before the projectile leaves the muzzle. Slow powders are designed to be held against the base of the case for the powder burn timing to be as designed, which is basically a small surface area which acts as a delay for the burn of the powder column. If you put half the powder in and lay it along the bottom of the case the primer flame hits many, times the number of grains of powder which then all burn at once. It defeats the coatings on the powder designed to control the burn rate, and worst case is spiking the pressure high enough to pop a case or on certain actions even damage the breech. Fast powders all burn at once anyway, so aren't as sensitive to position in the case. The old skool way was to hold small amounts of slow powder against the bottom of the case with an inert filler that was just ejected from the rifle, but it's not an ideal solution.

Two, the powder granules can be ejected prior to being burnt and if they collect in the suppressor it can cause an overpressure of the can when they all decide to finally burn.