Hi guys, Newbie here. I am looking to reload 223 subsonic. I have bullets from55 to 75 grain. Titegroup and AP70 powder. Anyone with any info on where to start. I have titegroup loads for 77gr 64gr and 55gr
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Hi guys, Newbie here. I am looking to reload 223 subsonic. I have bullets from55 to 75 grain. Titegroup and AP70 powder. Anyone with any info on where to start. I have titegroup loads for 77gr 64gr and 55gr
Hi Bob
Belmont Wanganui do make subsonic .223 ammo from time to time
i pulled one apart 55 grain projectile x 4.10 grain Trail Boss powder
what twist rate is your barrel as this will indicate how heavy your pill will be
and if your look with in this forum pages this topic has been covered with good info
Do you intend to hunt with these or is it just plinking fun
cheers to all
Everyone says Trail Boss. But it is easier to find hens teeth now. From what I have read the Winchester XPR in 223 is 1 in 8 twist. Just hunting bunnies but am finding my .22 subs not keeping them down(shooter error). Lots of adapting post stroke. left trigger right eye and right hand support on a monopod. also cheek weld not consistent. I KNOW everything wrong but I HAVE to do something!!!
Practice more with the .22lr more before hunting with it is the answer. Bunnies should be dead on the spot with it. Poor shot placement with a .223 sub won't perform much better, quite likely worse as the projectiles won't expand very well at subsonic speeds whereas the .22lr projectiles will.
You are using hollow point .22lr ammo I assume?
Don't think you'll do any better with a sub 223 and jacketed projectiles which won't expand on impact compared to a soft lump of lead with a hollow point. Practice with the 22 will I think be better.
I have tried powders Lilgun ,WSF ,AS50N ,, AR 2205 my barrel twist 1: 8 twist and a short bolt action
projectiles range from 45grain HP BEE to 69 grain HTBT
T/Boss is just easy as it fills the case better but one needs to be carful of other powders re double charges // or flash over as there is not enough powder against the primer . Heaver projectile are usually used for subsonic as they have more mass
All good fun but just be careful
cheers
Thanx will do. Yes using hollow subs. May need a better scope. Notice we blame everything else before ourself!!
If u were in SI could spend a day om range with u m8
The solution ain't the ammo or gun
U need to be shown basics and have someone coach u, 2 hrs and then regular practice
223 sub will be worse than 22lr sub
Harder bullet won't expand , smaller wound channel , bunny runs longer
Sure if u ask someone in NI will help out
Anywhere in the head will put them down
Lead pill, whatever you can get 45-50gr or so. Batch weigh the pills to weed out anything weirdly off spec...
As said, trailboss but that's about a year away so next best is Red Dot or similar for bulk (about 70% of TB). You can still double charge with RD but it's more obvious. Be aware such fast powders are dangerous but not like normal rifle loads - the pressure curve is so step you can take the action quickly past safe peak pressure by overcharging with too much powder it burns that quickly. It's very hard to undercharge and cause powder charge related low pressure problems, but you can end up with a pill stuck in the barrel. Do research and you'll find a reasonable amount of info on RD. Bigger cases have a thing called "the Load" for red dot - 13gr of RD powder with a normal-weight pill in a medioum case like a .308 if I recall.
I THINK one of my problems is inconsistent cheek weld as I have no feeling in my right side. Even sighting in with a lazer bore sighter I notice a movement. I am VERY mechanically minded and am trying to think of something to give me the same sight picture every time. The next problem is 3 guns to fit it to. Other idea was a lazer sight and just use the scope to check the position of the lazer dot
Practice putting the rifle to your shoulder with eyes closed, then open them and check your alignment with the sights adjust if needed and repeat, repeat, repeat. If using a scope be aware that unless it has parallax adjustment at short ranges moving your head even slightly will shift the cross hairs on a target.
Yes I try but with no feeling it is almost impossible to get consistency. Will try a laser sight
Hello BOBNZ, A couple of thoughts:
A fella who I know that lives on a lifestyle block has a similar problem to you, in that he cannot shoulder a rifle. He bought a red dot laser and shoots rabbits at 10 - 50 metre quite effectively without shouldering the rifle.
Second thought, another mate (who is able bodied) purchased a super light, carbon fibre tri-pod off of AliExpress for next to nothing. It's a camera tripod. He then purchased a U fitting which screws onto the top of the tripod and is effective shooting off of that. In his case the purchase was necessitated due to the knee high hay grass making it impossible to shoot off a bi-pod, prone. It works well and might remove some of your mechanical challenges.
Third thought is, 12 gauge shotgun off the hip!!! That removes a lot of the mechanics and guess work! I use my pump gun only about 2% of the time, but for a bit of comic relief try taping a NITECORE MH12S 1800 lumens 1" tube, mounted in an OLIGHHT X-WM03 magnetic bracket, onto the front end of a 12 gauge pump, then MOVE as fast as possible over undulating ground. Every time you come over a rise or round a bush its BOOM, BOOM, BOOM! GREAT FUN! I tape it on with 50mm PVC tape even though the advertising says the magnet will hold on a 12 gauge because one night the magnet let go and the torch went flying! I couldn't find it in the dark, but went back the next day and found it at arms length down a rabbit hole! Rabbit's revenge! (PS: I don't shoot of the hip! I'm not Clint Eastwood or a Cowboy!)
Well add a laser ( preferably green ) on pump shottie. No rabbit will survive , also a good home theft deterrant
In this case, suggest checking and confirming the stock 'fit' so that it is the right size and the scope is in the right position. Good fit for a rifle is very important, and very often overlooked. Cheek contact is a factor of stock drop, stock length, pistol grip, cheek pad, recoil pad and cast on or off of the stock centerline. Once that is sorted correctly the next is positioning of the scope for height and eye relief, and setting it up vertical and directly over bore centerline. A scope level to let you know when you are off from holding the rifle vertically would probably help. Once that is sorted the rifle will 'come up' correctly each time, and feel won't come into it too much. Once you have the recipe sorted, you'll probably find you'll want to replicate the fit across each rifle so once from the same stable will probably be the easiest to do this with using the same brand and model of scope.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBINNZ
Getting a forgiving scope with a generous eye box and wide range of eye relief will help too.
Feel is one of the last things that you should go on for shouldering a rifle, as weather (hot/cold), position, clothing, stance, buck fever etc etc all affect your 'feel' at the time.
Hi Bob
Hugh has the right idea hahaa i dont use the 22lr around the house but a 410 @ night with the good led light clamped and focused for its shooting distance any thing in its light beam is dead great for running shots - both eyes open and from the hip
also a good quality red dot has no parallax so as long as it is adjusted to point of impact it will work for the day time
cheers
PERFECT!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharki
I had just purchased a Miro 12g O/U before my stroke (20 rounds) two weeks!! Problem is no control or feeling in the trigger finger!!!! Also have to use subsonic due to dumbass population!!
Sharki cant do that here you have to let them kill you first then you will still be done for having an UNLOADED gun without a bolt in a safe!! Only the criminals have rights!!
Not all subs are created equal.
I had a lot of issues with the 42gr Winchester subs not expanding, basically just performing like solids.
Ive sinced moved to Eley 38gr subs, considerably more accurate and never had an issue with them not expanding.
The Winchesters would pass straight through a possum and ricochet off the tree behind, the Eleys expand nicely even on myna birds.
Thankful for all the info and suggestions re 22 subs BUT I still want to try 223 subs so if anyone has any data they can give or direct me to PLEASE!! I am looking to reload 223 subsonic. I have bullets from55 to 75 grain. Titegroup and AP70 powder. Anyone with any info on where to start. I have titegroup loads for 77gr 64gr and 55gr
well I suggest you try starting with your tightgroup loads you have hard data for....
your AP70 isnt a world away from trailboss so there is possibly data out there for it....definately is the universal load for 30 calibre being 10grns behind pretty much most projectiles....in most milserp 30 cal cases....
its your rifle and your face next to it.....proceed with caution whenever you try something new or assumed.
This data is from the Lyman Reloading Handbook 48th Ed. If you want a complete copy you can download it from here:
https://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Man...ing%20Manuals/
Be warned the pdf file is a 310 mb download. There are more manuals available.
Note. ADI indicate AP70 is about equivalent to Unique & Universal.
Note. Reducing the powder too much may result in bullets not exiting the barrel.
IMHO. Better to just use a 22lr and head shoot.
Attachment 240696
Out on the hill at the moment but I’ll have a look when I get home. But from memory 6gr AS50N under 55gr pill is still well supersonic in my 16” Howa, quiet like a 22rf though. Not too sure I’ve tried it with heavies though.
Note these loads are for cast lead not jacketed projectiles! It's such a shame that SR4759 is no longer made.
The Hodgdon reloading website has data for Titegroup 55gn sub loads for 223.
For my kids, I load 8.0 grains of Alliant Blue Dot under a 55gn Rusa CMJ projectile for 1800 fps out of my Ruger Ranch Rifle with a 16” Barrel.
Sounds like .22 long rifle.
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as you will have noticed most of the loads shown in last few posts are still well above subsonic levels... you are getting down to a stupidly light charge of powder to keep it below speed of sound.
I've never played with reduced loads for jacketed bullets, but have shot a few cast ones. My thoughts are, cast lead either greased or powder coated has a high degree of lubricity (slipperyness) so the bullet gets easily pushed down the bore by even a small charge. A copper jacket is much harder and far less slippery so with a charge required to go subsonic is there a chance of a stuck projectile?
Apart from that you'll get no expansion from something designed to open up at over 2000 fps whereas lead will probably give you a bit of expanson. Someone who uses std jacketed bullets in this application may like to comment and put me straight if needed
right...the headshoot thing has been mentioned more than once on here..... its a rabbit and a .22lr you dont need to headshoot its a massive projectile for a small animal,chest shots kill pretty much instantly.
please bear with my crude maths here. lots of rounding for sake of making point clear and easy
a 40 grain projectile =2.5grams???? something like that..... a 50 grain DOES = 3.2grams,just checked on old sako packet
a rabbit weighs between 750 and 1000grams give or take kitten VS big fat buck/doe Ive shot 4kg hares in the past.
so if for sake of easy/lazy maths we use the 750grams body weight and the 2.5grams projectile weight thats what??? 300/1 or .33% give or take
to put that into perspective and again for sake of lazy maths lets pick a 150lb pig or deer we would have to hit it with HALF A POUND of lead to be doing it in the same ratio!!!!! even the very biggest of smooth bore black powder elephant guns that were in use were normally no bigger than 4 guage or 4 balls to the pound...8 guage was more common...1/8th of a pound
if you hit rabbit even semi well with .22lr it will die quickly enough if hit forward of the last rib.. its simply put a little animal and by comparison a huge projectile....and yes we have all had runners with poor shot placement,thats what follow up shot is for,decent hollow points make a big difference and some of us USED to expand the lips of hollow point to make them expand quicker/more reliably back in the 80s prior to winchester making the power point projectiles,the power points worked well for last 40 years but it seems the newer ones not so much... its still a huge bit of lead and a small body mass.
So, looked at notes.Howa 16' 1:8 barrel with Sonic 35 suppressor.
AS50N powder. Currently loading 7.3gr powder under 55gr Hornady V-Max. av vel. 1911 fps @ 10m. 5mm/3 shot group @ 50m. Kills goats @50m and reasonably quiet.
Have tried loads from 7-7.9gr. 7gr was still supersonic and 7mm groups, 7.9 was 2026 fps, 7mm group.
Red Dot powder, have tried from 8 down to 4gr powder under same projectiles. 6gr RD was about 1700fps. Can't find target at moment but 4gr is subsonic but ES was a bit erratic. Havn't persisted with this load for now but will try and fine tune at some point. 5gr is super sonic, worked on two magpies at around 50m this morning.
Hope this gives you some idea where to start possibly @BOBINNZ
Don't know if @shooternz on here casts 22 projectiles, gas checked, but he might be worth asking.
woods223 those load levels sort of suggest that your red dot is on par/plurry close to, trailboss..eg a 4-5 grn charge is right on the sound barrier with 55grn pill.
Ive got as50n here too...... that load youve shown is pretty much a magnum/hornet level load ,definately a niche load...great for finishing off stuff without the blast/boom of full noise load.
thanks for looking them up to share.
You're right - the main issue with sub loads in anything is expansion. Effectively with .223 you are attempting to turn it into a .22 rimfire - this requires a bulky fast powder and one of the better options when it's back available is TrailBoss as everyone keeps pointing to. Issues with TB are it's a smokey powder and some have complained that it can leave a lot of crud not sure if that actually affects anything though - and the obvious issues with availability at the moment.
One of the next best options is Red Dot fast pistol and shotshell powder - I'm told it runs about the 70% density of TB range which means it will still be possible to double charge or overcharge a case with it. One of the issues with RD and other super fast powders is that they have an almost 'instant on' pressure curve (read it's near vertical on the graph) then dropping away as the bullet progresses down the barrel so the only thing limiting the amount of pressure in the gun on firing is the amount of powder you put in. Put to much in and you blow up your gun... On the other hand, don't put enough in and you risk the pill not exiting and you blow up your gun on the next firing with an obstructed barrel.
With Red Dot, it appears you can't load too light for ignition and firing pressure hazard purposes though - the only real risk at the low end appears to be insignificant pressure created to kick the bullet out of the barrel leading to an obstructed bore. RD burns so quickly that there doesn't seem to be much risk with the position in the case as used to happen with much slower powders, where the powder lying along the full length of the bottom of the case exposed a LOT more surface area to the primer flame than expected and resulted in a much quicker burn than usual which steepened the pressure curve to dangerous levels. With slower powders, a lot of the powder burn continues outside of the barrel where the increase in pressure just creates noise (muzzle blast) and flash. This is one reason why faster powders can be loaded to be a lot quieter - the lower volume of powder can be consumed in the barrel rather than out in the air.
With these faster powders and slower loads, the general procedure seems to start with finding a safe starting load for the combination of case, bullet, primer and powder which is within 10% or so of max and trying it out for performance. You start with the suppressor removed, checking for stability and velocity and then drop the powder charge slowly until you get to around 1050-1080fps or so. Much slower than that and I'd be concerned about a non-exit (check after each round), but your mileage might vary especially if you're running into large elevation and temperature variations in your shooting areas. Once you hit the velocity you want, it's reliable, and the bullet proves stable then chuck the suppressor back on and test that it functions correctly. Some people have reported that they found the pills went supersonic after rehanging the suppressor on, possibly the bullet was getting a little extra kick in the extra length of contained gas so they had to work the powder charge down a little (but better a bit of a crack than a big boom from a blocked barrel).
As far as the pill - a bit of a hard one as you need a reliable source of soft near-pure lead for expansion at subsonic speeds. A lot of lead like wheel weights has tin in it to improve the flow characteristics of the lead in the mold but that also makes the lead harder. This is where I think the commercial subs are a little lacking nowadays, they chuck tin etc into the brew to be able to cast or stamp the wire cores reliably without quality control issues and sending things back for rework. Ideally you want something will the biggest hole in the end of it you can get, that still fits in the magazine and loads and chambers OK. You don't need aerodynamic performance as subsonic rounds don't travel that far, blunt is good. If it opens to four times the surface area, more the better. Energy transfer is what you want, the ones I was using a while back (don't have the contact details of the guy who was making them unfortunately) were pretty bloody good, he was using a drink can disc as a gas check and loading into .22H cases. Don't know what the mold was either but a plain pill with gas check and hollowpoint. Roughly the junction of the thick post to the thinner wire below the crosshair was the 80m or so aiming mark with a bit of guesstimate at other ranges - surprisingly effective with the option of full house loads at anything longer. More effective than .22LR at any rate.
Forgot to mention in previous post
Have tried Hornady V-Max, Hornady 50gr SPSX #2240,Sierra 55 Spiitzer #1360, Speer Varmint 55SP #4711. All work on goats ok. Currently using V-Max because got given a few packets and they're accurate. The Speer's work equally as well, maybe a bit better. The Sierra's just start bringing the Scotch out in me at $58/100. Have shot about 150 goats so far trialling these loads. Still a work in Progess but satisfied so far.
Trailboss is a far easier powder to work with but I'm tending to save that for my 308 due to lack of supply.
Yep, if you can find a very lightly constructed varmint bullet they often make very acceptable sub loads with quite good controlled expansion at the slower speeds. For a while we were using .218 Bee pills in the Hornet - these were varmint type bullets designed for the .218Bee cases with a meaty flat face and a concave with I recall 6 slits in them - aerodynamics of a cinderblock but bloody awesome terminal effects. Fallow dropped like they'd been hit by lightening. Often didn't take a step... Not sure if these are still available though?
This is where I got my Bluedot load from.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...6/223_Blue_Dot
The Rusa 55gn CMJ projectiles I use appear to work well.
They are accurate in my gun and deform easily as they are copper coated lead.
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Probably should have mentioned that the 7.3gr AS50N load shoots near enough dead on @ 50m without altering scope from normal HV ammo setting for Belmont Black.Quote:
Originally Posted by woods223
I am trying to get my head around the reason for using fast burning powders for subsonic and not just lowering the normal powder.Quote:
Originally Posted by No.3
Hi Bob
i use the faster powder because of the short barrel [no flame @ night ]
and also because of a short burn [quick burn ] rate the push behind the pill is just a jab rather than a full power haymaker swing
if using a slow burn powder the push is over the longer length of a long barrel,
but becareful of using a fast burn powder on full loads as the pressure will spike real quick
cheers
Lowering the load of a "normal powder" will not work for the following reasonsQuote:
Originally Posted by BOBINNZ
Smokeless powders burn rate depends on a few things grain size, the use of graphite or other retardent coating and most importantly PRESSURE and dwell time. The higher the pressure the faster the burn rate, retardents are used to control initial burn as is grain size. The idea being a steady increase in velocity and pressure. Shotguns and pistols use much faster burning powders as the requirements are different and a quick boot up the arse works best for them.
A reduced charge of normal powder behind a light bullet will result in inconsistent ignition and lots of unburnt powder in the bore both of which do nothing for accuracy.
