30-40 Krag load conundrums

I have nearly finished a new build 30-40 Krag on an original Winchester 1885 single shot high wall action.
It is going to be set up as an Every Day Carry vintage rifle and will basically be a practical 300m stalking rifle.
Nearly all the gunsmithing has been done. I just need to fit the extractor, make and fit a barrel band, draw file all the octagonal flats, cut and crown the muzzle, get the caliber engraving done and then slow rust blue it all.

There is a bit of time involved in those few things.
So now I turn myself to some loads for this working rifle.
Previously I have only shot cast lead, powder coated gas checked bullets in my SMLE 30-40 Krag.
This rifle will be primarily a jacketed bullet rifle
The options are going to be spitzer soft point type in keeping with it's 300m use and speeds etc

Bullet weights 150, 165 or 180 grains
Think of it as a sedate 308 Winchester running lower 40k psi chamber pressures.

Available powders and reliable data ?
I know a few guys on here have some experience with the Krag and ADI powders
There is plenty of Hogdon data on line, but not whats available in NZ currently.
I don't have much ADI on hand but do have a little 2213SC

Just looking for some ideas from guys running one of these before I look across at the 303 data for some inspiration

Attachment 223398

It weighs 8 pounds even
Wears an old beat up looking Leupold M8 3x which has nice clear glass
Small mounting rail is set up for perfect eye relief for this scope
Rings are a POS and only being used to get it going and get the right clearance for the hammer and thumb fit

Sounds like a job for GRT. Do you have an accurate case capacity in grains of H2O? Barrel length - breech face to muzzle?

165's with 39 grains of AR2219 (if you can find any) for 2400 fps. Bench Mark 2 is very similar in burning rate. 2213SC is safe to use up to 48 grains but will be about 250 fps slower.

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Originally Posted by gundoc

165's with 39 grains of AR2219 (if you can find any) for 2400 fps. Bench Mark 2 is very similar in burning rate. 2213SC is safe to use up to 48 grains but will be about 250 fps slower.

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Gunworks seem to have 2219 in stock and I do have BM2 on hand

My quick google search earlier this morning had identified that 2219 was the sweet spot for the 165 grainers

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Originally Posted by Steelisreal

Sounds like a job for GRT. Do you have an accurate case capacity in grains of H2O? Barrel length - breech face to muzzle?

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@Steelisreal H2o case capacity is 59 grains to the mouth

Barrel is exactly 26"

At this stage I will run with 165s because there are a range of suitable ones available locally

And 2219 is looking good at this stage for a powder with specific data from manufacturer ( despite having a heap of other powders that might be perfect but lack creditable data )

cheers

An old book tells me imr 4064 (ar2208) will do it all from 110 to 220 grains and the oldest adi book reckons 2206h. For 165s 37-42 gr 2208, 33-38 2206h is what I can find

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

@Steelisreal H2o case capacity is 59 grains to the mouth

Barrel is exactly 26"

At this stage I will run with 165s because there are a range of suitable ones available locally

And 2219 is looking good at this stage for a powder with specific data from manufacturer ( despite having a heap of other powders that might be perfect but lack creditable data )

cheers

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And you need to remember 30-40 Krag aka 30 US is considered to be a 40k psi max cartridge due to the original Krag service rifle
The 1885 will happily take a bit more than that and this one does now have a bushed small diameter high pressure firing pin.
But I still intend sticking to the 40k psi max as a 165 @ 2400 will be perfect

I bet a 180gr round nose at 2400 would be perfecter

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Originally Posted by csmiffy

I bet a 180gr round nose at 2400 would be perfecter

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Yes if some 180 round nose were available they would look the part and do the job
But 2400 might be optimistic in a Krag
2300 from the 26" barrel maybe
And it's 1:10" twist for the big bombs

I do have 100x 220 grain Woodliegh's but they are maybe way to tough for my pedestrian speeds

Greetings @akaroa1,
A month or so back I suggested, half jokingly, that I may use my 30-40 Martini in a 300 yard F class shoot. A little later I dug the hole deeper so am now committed. A little while ago I measured the throat on my rifle and found that the 165 grain Hornady Interlock could be seated 1mm from the lands and still have around 7mm of projectile seated in the case. This was as far as I had got when I spotted your OP to this thread. I gave myself a mental clip around the ears and reminded myself that, fortunately for us handloading junkies ammo does not load itself.
A document search of data revealed little I would trust but I knew that the net case capacity of the .30-40 Krag and the .308 Win were close to the same so the velocities and pressure should be similar and the start loads for the .308 would be close to Max in the .30-40. Hodgdon listed a start load of 41 grains of H4895 (AR2206H) for 2,525 fps and 38,600 CUP. This is in a 24 inch barrel, same as my Martini.
I would still like to see some comparable data for the Krag that backed up my assumptions so I was rummaging around in the Load Data dot com website that I subscribe to and found loads by Brian Pearce developed for the .30-40 in a Browning 1895 rifle with a 24 inch barrel. He listed a start load of 33.5 grains of H4895 for 2142 fps and a max of 36.9 grains for 2,326 fps. This is close to what you would expect based on the .308 start load data.
AR2206H was selected as I have plenty of it and it tolerates lighter loads although it does shoot a bit dirty. It has also been used in my .308 rifles for soft target loads, 40 grains and later 38 grains with 150 grain projectiles. Both showed signs of low pressure and could be handloaded endlessly with just neck sizing. There are a few 165 grain projectiles in the shed so I had better get cracking.
Regards Grandpamac.

All loads were for 165 grain projectiles.

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @akaroa1,
A month or so back I suggested, half jokingly, that I may use my 30-40 Martini in a 300 yard F class shoot. A little later I dug the hole deeper so am now committed. A little while ago I measured the throat on my rifle and found that the 165 grain Hornady Interlock could be seated 1mm from the lands and still have around 7mm of projectile seated in the case. This was as far as I had got when I spotted your OP to this thread. I gave myself a mental clip around the ears and reminded myself that, fortunately for us handloading junkies ammo does not load itself.
A document search of data revealed little I would trust but I knew that the net case capacity of the .30-40 Krag and the .308 Win were close to the same so the velocities and pressure should be similar and the start loads for the .308 would be close to Max in the .30-40. Hodgdon listed a start load of 41 grains of H4895 (AR2206H) for 2,525 fps and 38,600 CUP. This is in a 24 inch barrel, same as my Martini.
I would still like to see some comparable data for the Krag that backed up my assumptions so I was rummaging around in the Load Data dot com website that I subscribe to and found loads by Brian Pearce developed for the .30-40 in a Browning 1895 rifle with a 24 inch barrel. He listed a start load of 33.5 grains of H4895 for 2142 fps and a max of 36.9 grains for 2,326 fps. This is close to what you would expect based on the .308 start load data.
AR2206H was selected as I have plenty of it and it tolerates lighter loads although it does shoot a bit dirty. It has also been used in my .308 rifles for soft target loads, 40 grains and later 38 grains with 150 grain projectiles. Both showed signs of low pressure and could be handloaded endlessly with just neck sizing. There are a few 165 grain projectiles in the shed so I had better get cracking.
Regards Grandpamac.

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@grandpamac I was hoping you would come on board with some authoritative real world data on.
Even better if it is with the 165s and ADI powder.
Another bonus you are striving for 300 yard F Class world domination. So you are likely to hand it to me on a winners platter.

I merely want to shoot red deer at 300m so my task should be easier than yours
There isn't much I can do now on the rifle until the barrel is engraved for caliber and twist.
Then I can put in a final burst and get it all put back together and do some load work / hunting with GPMs guaranteed to work load date

cheers

@grandpamac Your idea on 308 starting loads being around max for 30-40 holds some merit

Using Nick Harvey's 9th Edition
I have compared 308 starting loads with 303 max loads and for most of the powders they are the same or very near the same.
The reason to compare with the 303 data is that I consider the 303 and 30-40 to be one and the same in the action I am using.

This useful option to compare starting and max loads will be useful in getting some useful options for powders like W748 and W760 which I have a reasonable amount of, but hadn't found any useful 30-40 specific data on

Greetings @akaroa1,
The pressure tested data for the .303 from ADI and especially Hodgdons are useful as well but neither lists a 165 grain projectile. They do list the pressures. I also have some old pressure tested data from Dupont for the .30-40 but it does not include the 165 grain projectile. This is from the mid 1970's and I found it on Load data.com. It doesn't line up with other data though and shows really light loads for IMR4895, a relatively new powder at the time. I should get onto some chronographing over the next couple of weeks so will report more on velocities then. Are there any powders you are interested in?
Regards Grandpamac.

PS. Will have a hunt for 748 and 760 data as well.

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @akaroa1,
The pressure tested data for the .303 from ADI and especially Hodgdons are useful as well but neither lists a 165 grain projectile. They do list the pressures. I also have some old pressure tested data from Dupont for the .30-40 but it does not include the 165 grain projectile. This is from the mid 1970's and I found it on Load data.com. It doesn't line up with other data though and shows really light loads for IMR4895, a relatively new powder at the time. I should get onto some chronographing over the next couple of weeks so will report more on velocities then. Are there any powders you are interested in?
Regards Grandpamac.

PS. Will have a hunt for 748 and 760 data as well.

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@grandpamac more interested in powders available here
But I do have and use W748 and W760 and have a bit of it
My vintage SS 303 goes well on W760 so I'm assuming the 30-40 Krag will like it

Greeting again @akaroa1,
I turned up some pressure tested data for W760. This dates from 1976 or earlier and was repeated in the 2003 Winchester Reloading Components Manual. Their load for the 180 grain projectile in the .30-40 Krag was 44.5 grains of W760 for 2.380 fps at 37,000 CUP. For some reason Hodgdon does not list this in their W760 data. Speer in their No 9 manual lists 43 grains of H414 (actually W760 with a different label) for the 180 grain for 2,034 fps and 45 grains of H414 for the 165 grain for 2,188 fps. These velocities don't line up with the Winchester data even allowing for the 21 inch barrel of the Krag rifle they used. I have found this with the .303 in that pressure tested data gives higher velocities than that from army rifles. My own chronographing with practically new .303 barrels suggests that this is partly due to worn or loose barrels on some army rifles used for developing the loads. My .30-40 barrel is a used .308 target barrel cut of, re threaded and a new chamber cut. The throat and rifling look good and it shoots well. The barrel is also a snug .308 groove so chronographing will be interesting. As an aside the barrel was one of two given to me by the late Tony Loughnan who was heavily involved in the development of the Paki Paki range where I shoot F Class. One of those connections that interest us older chaps.
Regards Grandpamac.

PS. Ken Waters in his 1968 Pet Loads for the .30-40 listed 44 grains of H414 with the 165 grain Sierra for 2,495 fps. He found this load gave excellent accuracy in the 28 inch barrel he used, likely a Winchester 1895.

Just be careful with old H414/W760 data as the modern powders may not be exactly the same as the old.
I researched this ages ago (I'm a W760 fan) and cannot remember if W760 morphed into H414 or the other way round.

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Originally Posted by zimmer

Just be careful with old H414/W760 data as the modern powders may not be exactly the same as the old.
I researched this ages ago (I'm a W760 fan) and cannot remember if W760 morphed into H414 or the other way round.

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W760 is a Winchester powder. H414 is W760 marketed by Hodgdon as W760 also is today. Formally the two powders had slightly different load data but today it is identical. Some early H414 may have been surplus and may not have varied a little more from lot to lot. Some of the data offered today is very old, up to 50 years.
GPM.

Greetings and some info,
There seems to have been a change in the Winchester powders about 1975. their booklet of that year warns handloaders not to use the data for the older powder but refers them to an earlier 1969 booklet. Prior to 1975 W748 and W760 had a BR suffix as shown in my old Lyman Manual, no 45 I think. The 1970 edition of Handloaders Digest does not list the Winchester powders but does list H414 which makes me wonder if the Hodgdons marketed powder came first. History is interesting but can be frustrating as well.
GPM.

Been digging back thru my stuff it looks like H414 became W760, not the other way around when Hodgdon took over the marketing of Winchester Powders around 2005. Winchester had long left the scene and St Marks owned by General Dynamics produces the Winchester line. Hodgdon does own IMR powders.

So before 2005 (?) H414 and W760 were seperate powders. On old powder burning rate charts (guides only) H414 and W760 were apart. W760 faster?? I'll need to find mine and look. Handloader mag used to publish the burning rates charts from time to time. All my old copies are unloved in cardboard boxes.

I have quite a bit of W760. I'll need to dig it out and check the vintage. Don't think it predates Hodgdon involvement.

GPM - what do you believe to be the origin of H414? I have articles about Bruce Hodgdon cheeply buying mil surp powders in railway car quanties and repacking into cannisters but couldn't see H414.

In 1969 Winchester relocated it's factory to St Marks? It had been making powders prior to that from the late 1920's but what sort I don't know. Originally they may have been made from recycled stick powders. In 1969? they started offering 748 BR and 760 BR It is possible they had been producing powder for the military prior to that as 760 seems to be ideal for the .30-06. H414 was introduced in 1967 so it predates the shift and possibly 760 BR (certainly it predates 760) but is likely a surplus powder, production for the Korean war perhaps. The Speer data shows H414 as slightly slower than 760. Comparing a few loads of 760 BR with 760 shows that the BR version is slower as you would expect if that is what H414 is.
GPM.

@grandpamac I used a blend of 308 starting loads, 307 loads and 303 max loads to make an informed decision on a safe starting load for the 30-40
I'm using W760, magnum primers and some 165 grain Nosler BTs

I'm very happy with the results.
Brass is easy to extract and re chambers unsized with only a little push.

Attachment 225490

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

In 1969 Winchester relocated it's factory to St Marks? It had been making powders prior to that from the late 1920's but what sort I don't know. Originally they may have been made from recycled stick powders. In 1969? they started offering 748 BR and 760 BR It is possible they had been producing powder for the military prior to that as 760 seems to be ideal for the .30-06. H414 was introduced in 1967 so it predates the shift and possibly 760 BR (certainly it predates 760) but is likely a surplus powder, production for the Korean war perhaps. The Speer data shows H414 as slightly slower than 760. Comparing a few loads of 760 BR with 760 shows that the BR version is slower as you would expect if that is what H414 is.
GPM.

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@grandpamac I had an interesting experience with an unknown ball powder. Back in the 70s I purchased a couple of thousand milsurp 30-06. Mostly Denver and Twin Cities. I think it ran at around 2c a shot.
I stripped the cartridges and repurposed the 4895, hollow pointed the projectiles, shortened the cases and sized to fit my 308. Reloaded as 308W it made excellent fodder for the goat culls my NZDA branch used to do.
I was busy using an inertia puller (hard work) to pull the projectiles and tipping the powder into an old Erinmore tobacco tin. I wasn't taking much notice but then saw a quantity of ball powder added to the stick 4895.
Sorted out the last projectiles pulled and found them to be tracer. Hadn't noticed that when I put them into the inertial puller.
The 20 round carboard packets were unopened. I never ran into any more tracer rounds but certainly kept a better eye out. Quite bizarre.

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Originally Posted by zimmer

@grandpamac I had an interesting experience with an unknown ball powder. Back in the 70s I purchased a couple of thousand milsurp 30-06. Mostly Denver and Twin Cities. I think it ran at around 2c a shot.
I stripped the cartridges and repurposed the 4895, hollow pointed the projectiles, shortened the cases and sized to fit my 308. Reloaded as 308W it made excellent fodder for the goat culls my NZDA branch used to do.
I was busy using an inertia puller (hard work) to pull the projectiles and tipping the powder into an old Erinmore tobacco tin. I wasn't taking much notice but then saw a quantity of ball powder added to the stick 4895.
Sorted out the last projectiles pulled and found them to be tracer. Hadn't noticed that when I put them into the inertial puller.
The 20 round carboard packets were unopened. I never ran into any more tracer rounds but certainly kept a better eye out. Quite bizarre.

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Greetings @zimmer and all,
The Ball powder may have been WC846. This was used in .303 ammo and possibly others during WW2 and was later marketed as Western BL-Type C by Hodgdon. I used some of that salvaged 4895 and the 150 grain M2 projectiles for target loads in my .308 in which they shot better than anything 150 grain with a boat tail. The components came from a friend whose father had used the salvaged .30-06 cases reformed for his 8mm in the 1960's. Handloaders in those days used a minimum of kit and whatever they could get to keep their rifles going. A different time.
Regards Grandpamac.

Greetings All,
Things have moved along a for the .30-40 Krag loads little without the need for any loud noises as yet. A decision was made to use 150 grain projectiles rather than the 165 grain as I have plenty of the former. The powder will be AR2206H (H4895). Another document search yielded rather more data which was graphed. The Hodgdons (H4895) data together with two loads from Ken Waters (IMR4895) lined up pretty well using 28 and 24 inch barrels. Ken's rifles were two Win 1895 lever actions with one manufactured in the 1980's. Other data using Krag rifles gave slower velocities. From the data it looks as though 39 to 40 grains of AR2206H should give the 2,400 fps I am after. Will let you know how I get on.
Regards Grandpamac.

Well I've just reassembled my 1885 30-40 after bedding the fore end and fitting a 1.5-5 scope instead of the fixed 3x
I turned out to be a moa rifle so I thought the 5x max magnification would be helpful

Got it back on the paper this morning and 100mm high at 100m
This should give me a 200m zero

I will load some more and check things on my 200 and 400m ranges soon

funnily enough Ive just taken my fixed 6x off the trebly and put the fixed 3x on it.....tossed this up for ages but I do not intend to use the trebly over 150 yards and so far most animals have been much less than that..also found some older,cheaper,slightly lower rings which helped align things better.
the things we do when at home and not out hunting.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

funnily enough Ive just taken my fixed 6x off the trebly and put the fixed 3x on it.....tossed this up for ages but I do not intend to use the trebly over 150 yards and so far most animals have been much less than that..also found some older,cheaper,slightly lower rings which helped align things better.
the things we do when at home and not out hunting.

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The M8 3x will find a home on top of something suitably old soon

The 30-40 just exceeded my expectations and should realistically easily be 400m capable
So the 5x will be useful

Greetings @akaroa1 and @Micky Duck,
The scope on my Martini is a VX1 3 to 9 that I was given. Previously it was aM8 4x. Both scopes have decent eye relief needed for the barrel mounted scope. I also had a Bushnell 10x that I would have liked to use but could not set it back far enough. It crossed my mind that I should try the rifle out on the bench to make sure I have the eye relief right as it was not actually raining today thinking that I would use my fixed bench. After a flash of inspiration I used my portable bench inside the garage looking out through the open door. The weather report is crap for the next week so it may be some time before I actually fire the rifle and sort out some loads. Pity the garage is not pointed in the right direction. I blame the draughtsman. Unfortunately that was me.
Regards Grandpamac.

I finally resolved my load conundrum when Hornady 180 grain RN bullets became available again

Found a load using W760 that the rifle seems to like.
Loaded plenty, checked the sights and decided it would be my primary big game rifle for the summer

Attachment 239736

So 3 days hunting in the West Coast and first evening a hind at 170m became the first victim of the 1885 30-40 U.S. Govt

I did hit it a little higher than I intended
But it dropped in the spot and never moved

Attachment 239737

Rifle and bullet performance was perfect
There were some fragments of copper and lead around the exit hole.
Exactly what I wanted from a big round nose bullet with lots of lead exposed

Attachment 239738

So that's the last of the Christmas shopping done

Knew you would like the bullets performance.its the closest thing I could get to the Winchester 180grn as far as terminal performance goes. Enjoy the venison.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

So 3 days hunting in the West Coast and first evening a hind at 170m became the first victim of the 1885 30-40 U.S. Govt

I did hit it a little higher than I intended
But it dropped in the spot and never moved

Attachment 239737

Rifle and bullet performance was perfect
There were some fragments of copper and lead around the exit hole.
Exactly what I wanted from a big round nose bullet with lots of lead exposed

Attachment 239738

So that's the last of the Christmas shopping done

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Now that's a very nice bang stick.