30-40 Krag load conundrums

Greetings @akaroa1,
The pressure tested data for the .303 from ADI and especially Hodgdons are useful as well but neither lists a 165 grain projectile. They do list the pressures. I also have some old pressure tested data from Dupont for the .30-40 but it does not include the 165 grain projectile. This is from the mid 1970's and I found it on Load data.com. It doesn't line up with other data though and shows really light loads for IMR4895, a relatively new powder at the time. I should get onto some chronographing over the next couple of weeks so will report more on velocities then. Are there any powders you are interested in?
Regards Grandpamac.

PS. Will have a hunt for 748 and 760 data as well.

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @akaroa1,
The pressure tested data for the .303 from ADI and especially Hodgdons are useful as well but neither lists a 165 grain projectile. They do list the pressures. I also have some old pressure tested data from Dupont for the .30-40 but it does not include the 165 grain projectile. This is from the mid 1970's and I found it on Load data.com. It doesn't line up with other data though and shows really light loads for IMR4895, a relatively new powder at the time. I should get onto some chronographing over the next couple of weeks so will report more on velocities then. Are there any powders you are interested in?
Regards Grandpamac.

PS. Will have a hunt for 748 and 760 data as well.

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@grandpamac more interested in powders available here
But I do have and use W748 and W760 and have a bit of it
My vintage SS 303 goes well on W760 so I'm assuming the 30-40 Krag will like it

Greeting again @akaroa1,
I turned up some pressure tested data for W760. This dates from 1976 or earlier and was repeated in the 2003 Winchester Reloading Components Manual. Their load for the 180 grain projectile in the .30-40 Krag was 44.5 grains of W760 for 2.380 fps at 37,000 CUP. For some reason Hodgdon does not list this in their W760 data. Speer in their No 9 manual lists 43 grains of H414 (actually W760 with a different label) for the 180 grain for 2,034 fps and 45 grains of H414 for the 165 grain for 2,188 fps. These velocities don't line up with the Winchester data even allowing for the 21 inch barrel of the Krag rifle they used. I have found this with the .303 in that pressure tested data gives higher velocities than that from army rifles. My own chronographing with practically new .303 barrels suggests that this is partly due to worn or loose barrels on some army rifles used for developing the loads. My .30-40 barrel is a used .308 target barrel cut of, re threaded and a new chamber cut. The throat and rifling look good and it shoots well. The barrel is also a snug .308 groove so chronographing will be interesting. As an aside the barrel was one of two given to me by the late Tony Loughnan who was heavily involved in the development of the Paki Paki range where I shoot F Class. One of those connections that interest us older chaps.
Regards Grandpamac.

PS. Ken Waters in his 1968 Pet Loads for the .30-40 listed 44 grains of H414 with the 165 grain Sierra for 2,495 fps. He found this load gave excellent accuracy in the 28 inch barrel he used, likely a Winchester 1895.

Just be careful with old H414/W760 data as the modern powders may not be exactly the same as the old.
I researched this ages ago (I'm a W760 fan) and cannot remember if W760 morphed into H414 or the other way round.

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Originally Posted by zimmer

Just be careful with old H414/W760 data as the modern powders may not be exactly the same as the old.
I researched this ages ago (I'm a W760 fan) and cannot remember if W760 morphed into H414 or the other way round.

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W760 is a Winchester powder. H414 is W760 marketed by Hodgdon as W760 also is today. Formally the two powders had slightly different load data but today it is identical. Some early H414 may have been surplus and may not have varied a little more from lot to lot. Some of the data offered today is very old, up to 50 years.
GPM.

Greetings and some info,
There seems to have been a change in the Winchester powders about 1975. their booklet of that year warns handloaders not to use the data for the older powder but refers them to an earlier 1969 booklet. Prior to 1975 W748 and W760 had a BR suffix as shown in my old Lyman Manual, no 45 I think. The 1970 edition of Handloaders Digest does not list the Winchester powders but does list H414 which makes me wonder if the Hodgdons marketed powder came first. History is interesting but can be frustrating as well.
GPM.

Been digging back thru my stuff it looks like H414 became W760, not the other way around when Hodgdon took over the marketing of Winchester Powders around 2005. Winchester had long left the scene and St Marks owned by General Dynamics produces the Winchester line. Hodgdon does own IMR powders.

So before 2005 (?) H414 and W760 were seperate powders. On old powder burning rate charts (guides only) H414 and W760 were apart. W760 faster?? I'll need to find mine and look. Handloader mag used to publish the burning rates charts from time to time. All my old copies are unloved in cardboard boxes.

I have quite a bit of W760. I'll need to dig it out and check the vintage. Don't think it predates Hodgdon involvement.

GPM - what do you believe to be the origin of H414? I have articles about Bruce Hodgdon cheeply buying mil surp powders in railway car quanties and repacking into cannisters but couldn't see H414.

In 1969 Winchester relocated it's factory to St Marks? It had been making powders prior to that from the late 1920's but what sort I don't know. Originally they may have been made from recycled stick powders. In 1969? they started offering 748 BR and 760 BR It is possible they had been producing powder for the military prior to that as 760 seems to be ideal for the .30-06. H414 was introduced in 1967 so it predates the shift and possibly 760 BR (certainly it predates 760) but is likely a surplus powder, production for the Korean war perhaps. The Speer data shows H414 as slightly slower than 760. Comparing a few loads of 760 BR with 760 shows that the BR version is slower as you would expect if that is what H414 is.
GPM.

@grandpamac I used a blend of 308 starting loads, 307 loads and 303 max loads to make an informed decision on a safe starting load for the 30-40
I'm using W760, magnum primers and some 165 grain Nosler BTs

I'm very happy with the results.
Brass is easy to extract and re chambers unsized with only a little push.

Attachment 225490

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

In 1969 Winchester relocated it's factory to St Marks? It had been making powders prior to that from the late 1920's but what sort I don't know. Originally they may have been made from recycled stick powders. In 1969? they started offering 748 BR and 760 BR It is possible they had been producing powder for the military prior to that as 760 seems to be ideal for the .30-06. H414 was introduced in 1967 so it predates the shift and possibly 760 BR (certainly it predates 760) but is likely a surplus powder, production for the Korean war perhaps. The Speer data shows H414 as slightly slower than 760. Comparing a few loads of 760 BR with 760 shows that the BR version is slower as you would expect if that is what H414 is.
GPM.

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@grandpamac I had an interesting experience with an unknown ball powder. Back in the 70s I purchased a couple of thousand milsurp 30-06. Mostly Denver and Twin Cities. I think it ran at around 2c a shot.
I stripped the cartridges and repurposed the 4895, hollow pointed the projectiles, shortened the cases and sized to fit my 308. Reloaded as 308W it made excellent fodder for the goat culls my NZDA branch used to do.
I was busy using an inertia puller (hard work) to pull the projectiles and tipping the powder into an old Erinmore tobacco tin. I wasn't taking much notice but then saw a quantity of ball powder added to the stick 4895.
Sorted out the last projectiles pulled and found them to be tracer. Hadn't noticed that when I put them into the inertial puller.
The 20 round carboard packets were unopened. I never ran into any more tracer rounds but certainly kept a better eye out. Quite bizarre.

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Originally Posted by zimmer

@grandpamac I had an interesting experience with an unknown ball powder. Back in the 70s I purchased a couple of thousand milsurp 30-06. Mostly Denver and Twin Cities. I think it ran at around 2c a shot.
I stripped the cartridges and repurposed the 4895, hollow pointed the projectiles, shortened the cases and sized to fit my 308. Reloaded as 308W it made excellent fodder for the goat culls my NZDA branch used to do.
I was busy using an inertia puller (hard work) to pull the projectiles and tipping the powder into an old Erinmore tobacco tin. I wasn't taking much notice but then saw a quantity of ball powder added to the stick 4895.
Sorted out the last projectiles pulled and found them to be tracer. Hadn't noticed that when I put them into the inertial puller.
The 20 round carboard packets were unopened. I never ran into any more tracer rounds but certainly kept a better eye out. Quite bizarre.

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Greetings @zimmer and all,
The Ball powder may have been WC846. This was used in .303 ammo and possibly others during WW2 and was later marketed as Western BL-Type C by Hodgdon. I used some of that salvaged 4895 and the 150 grain M2 projectiles for target loads in my .308 in which they shot better than anything 150 grain with a boat tail. The components came from a friend whose father had used the salvaged .30-06 cases reformed for his 8mm in the 1960's. Handloaders in those days used a minimum of kit and whatever they could get to keep their rifles going. A different time.
Regards Grandpamac.

Greetings All,
Things have moved along a for the .30-40 Krag loads little without the need for any loud noises as yet. A decision was made to use 150 grain projectiles rather than the 165 grain as I have plenty of the former. The powder will be AR2206H (H4895). Another document search yielded rather more data which was graphed. The Hodgdons (H4895) data together with two loads from Ken Waters (IMR4895) lined up pretty well using 28 and 24 inch barrels. Ken's rifles were two Win 1895 lever actions with one manufactured in the 1980's. Other data using Krag rifles gave slower velocities. From the data it looks as though 39 to 40 grains of AR2206H should give the 2,400 fps I am after. Will let you know how I get on.
Regards Grandpamac.

Well I've just reassembled my 1885 30-40 after bedding the fore end and fitting a 1.5-5 scope instead of the fixed 3x
I turned out to be a moa rifle so I thought the 5x max magnification would be helpful

Got it back on the paper this morning and 100mm high at 100m
This should give me a 200m zero

I will load some more and check things on my 200 and 400m ranges soon

funnily enough Ive just taken my fixed 6x off the trebly and put the fixed 3x on it.....tossed this up for ages but I do not intend to use the trebly over 150 yards and so far most animals have been much less than that..also found some older,cheaper,slightly lower rings which helped align things better.
the things we do when at home and not out hunting.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

funnily enough Ive just taken my fixed 6x off the trebly and put the fixed 3x on it.....tossed this up for ages but I do not intend to use the trebly over 150 yards and so far most animals have been much less than that..also found some older,cheaper,slightly lower rings which helped align things better.
the things we do when at home and not out hunting.

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The M8 3x will find a home on top of something suitably old soon

The 30-40 just exceeded my expectations and should realistically easily be 400m capable
So the 5x will be useful