Thread: 300 Ham'R or 30 Apache

Anyone have any experience with either of these running light supers? Seem a bit more suited for supers than the Blackout.

Not sure why you'd bother with this cartridge if you weren't using it in an AR15.
The appeal to 300blk is the ability to use both subs and supers, if you aren't going to use subs then there are bunch of other cartridges with better performance that work in a mini action rifle.
Unless you specifically want to use a mini action rifle with 30cal bullets I'd personally look elsewhere.

Because of another rifles action limitations (TC Contender). Which has pressure limitations but not length limitations like an AR. In a 16.5inch barrel and the fact there now a huge range if 30 calibre bullets that are made for 300blk speeds the 30 cal out preforms most other options due to the lower velocity window in which it preforms the 6MM ARC is the next bet but it still needs around 400fps more velocity on average for the projectile to function at impact.

30/30 comes to mind immediately.... could be a much simpler option to achieve same thing.

309 jdj
https://www.handloadermagazine.com/w...-cartridges-10

Originally Posted by Stocky

Because of another rifles action limitations (TC Contender). Which has pressure limitations but not length limitations like an AR. In a 16.5inch barrel and the fact there now a huge range if 30 calibre bullets that are made for 300blk speeds the 30 cal out preforms most other options due to the lower velocity window in which it preforms the 6MM ARC is the next bet but it still needs around 400fps more velocity on average for the projectile to function at impact.

In your situation then it probably is a fairly good choice, certainly will have more oomph that a 300blk with supers.

If you are hunting at fairly close distances then there's probably little point in trying to go for a zippy 6mm cartridge (the 6x45 would be neat) so 300 hamr would probably be a fine choice. Certainly a huge range of projectiles to play around with.

I guess I'd go through the same thought process of choosing a cartridge, especially consider what factory ammo may or may not be available and what powder is available. I haven't looked much recently but the slower pistol type powders you'd use in 300blk/hamr don't seem to be coming into the country very often (not that its easy to find any powder at the moment).

I have been chewing on the idea of a switch barrel rifle based on a Howa Mini Action with a 223 bolt face and I think the 300 HAM'R/30 Apache/30-223 is a good option for a .30 cal in this platform. From what I have read you can duplicate 30-30 performance from reasonably short barrels.

I was trying to figure out what the most economical cartridge possible would be for deer sized game and below and I think the 300 HAM'R is pretty close.
-Easily available brass
-Small rifle primers
-Pretty much the smallest caliber to effectively use cast bullets, or a good selection of cheap factory projectiles.
-Small high pressure case so you can use smaller amounts of faster powder for the same velocity.

A cast 160gr HP going 2000-2200fps would be a sweet load.

This cartridge does nothing new, but it's still interesting.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

30/30 comes to mind immediately.... could be a much simpler option to achieve same thing.

Nope not even close.

Lower pressure and more case case capacity means incomplete burn with almost all powders with light projectiles that work best in the slow 30 calibres. This in turn leads to suppressor wear and typically higher SD.

I have a 30-30 barrel and trying CFE BLK now but it struggles to fill the case so expecting erratic velocities.

Originally Posted by Friwi

309 jdj
https://www.handloadermagazine.com/w...-cartridges-10

Same issue as above but more extreme. Lower pressures means incomplete burn of powder issue and burnt out suppressors. If you kept a long barrel and had a brake or bare it would likely be a great option but at that stage I'd consider 6.5JDJ etc.

Some interesting options in the JDJ and Bellm lines

I necked a 6.5TCU case up to .30 for a bit of fun. Actuallly looked like a good little case. I would imagine reasonable performance.

I've got a 30-221 (300 BLK) Contender barrelset that Ive been pondering on what to do with for ages.

30-30 has been to the front of my thinking, mainly for practical reasons. Rimless cartridges in the Contender are a pain even though it does extract just fine, and the smaller case the worse it is.

My "main" contender barrel is the 6.8 SPC, 120gn at 2475 - it just plain works to 300M after that its out of snot. Its is fiddly to though.

I think if I was in your situation I'd just persevere with the 30-30, the erractic velocities you mention wont make any practical difference within 300M, and if you looked at some of the older IMR powders, I'm sure you'd fine a better match than the likes of CFEBLK. Cheers

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

30/30 comes to mind immediately.... could be a much simpler option to achieve same thing.

You are so old school in your thinking, every time

Originally Posted by SixtyTen

I have been chewing on the idea of a switch barrel rifle based on a Howa Mini Action with a 223 bolt face and I think the 300 HAM'R/30 Apache/30-223 is a good option for a .30 cal in this platform. From what I have read you can duplicate 30-30 performance from reasonably short barrels.

I was trying to figure out what the most economical cartridge possible would be for deer sized game and below and I think the 300 HAM'R is pretty close.
-Easily available brass
-Small rifle primers
-Pretty much the smallest caliber to effectively use cast bullets, or a good selection of cheap factory projectiles.
-Small high pressure case so you can use smaller amounts of faster powder for the same velocity.

A cast 160gr HP going 2000-2200fps would be a sweet load.

This cartridge does nothing new, but it's still interesting.

Whats the appeal of using cast bullets? Just for the cost saving?
I briefly played with case bullets and found them to be a pain in the arse when loading, that unless I was a very high volume shooter then I'm not sure I'd bother.

If I were limited to a 223 bolt face I'd go for 6x45, maybe 25x45 or 6.5x45 depending on projectile availability.
It's probably just me but I don't see the appeal in a 30cal with such little case capacity.

My thought process is this:
the small case capacity means you either need to go for a very light bullet or put up with lower velocity with a heavier bullet, both result is a cartridge that will have a practical range of 300ish meters, if you are then limiting yourself to 300m then you may as well go go for something like the 6x45.
6x45 will have less muzzle energy but will have a higher BC bullet and higher muzzle velocity that at 300m you'll have performance similar to a 243 at 400-500m which most people would be happy with.
You then get the advantage of less drop and less effected by the wind.

Unless you need a lot of close range energy (like the Americans want for big game or shooting mass pigs with ARs) then I don't see the appeal in the 30/338/45/etc calibre cartridges unless the idea is also do run subsonics. I also think in the current climate where the likes of ADI have stopped producing the less common/popular powders I wouldn't want to get into a cartridge that needs a oddball powder unless I already had a decent supply.

In saying all that in the OPs situation, especially if he already has 30cal bullets and suitable powders, then 30 apache (30-223) would be a good choice as forming of brass is easy and 223 brass is readily available. If the hunting distances are such that 300blk/30-30 would be more than adequate the 30hamr/30-223 are giving you better perforamance with the only downside being burning more powder, which is likely inconsiquential in this siutation.

Originally Posted by Beetroot

Whats the appeal of using cast bullets? Just for the cost saving?
I briefly played with case bullets and found them to be a pain in the arse when loading, that unless I was a very high volume shooter then I'm not sure I'd bother.

If I were limited to a 223 bolt face I'd go for 6x45, maybe 25x45 or 6.5x45 depending on projectile availability.
It's probably just me but I don't see the appeal in a 30cal with such little case capacity.

My thought process is this:
the small case capacity means you either need to go for a very light bullet or put up with lower velocity with a heavier bullet, both result is a cartridge that will have a practical range of 300ish meters, if you are then limiting yourself to 300m then you may as well go go for something like the 6x45.
6x45 will have less muzzle energy but will have a higher BC bullet and higher muzzle velocity that at 300m you'll have performance similar to a 243 at 400-500m which most people would be happy with.
You then get the advantage of less drop and less effected by the wind.

Unless you need a lot of close range energy (like the Americans want for big game or shooting mass pigs with ARs) then I don't see the appeal in the 30/338/45/etc calibre cartridges unless the idea is also do run subsonics. I also think in the current climate where the likes of ADI have stopped producing the less common/popular powders I wouldn't want to get into a cartridge that needs a oddball powder unless I already had a decent supply.

In saying all that in the OPs situation, especially if he already has 30cal bullets and suitable powders, then 30 apache (30-223) would be a good choice as forming of brass is easy and 223 brass is readily available. If the hunting distances are such that 300blk/30-30 would be more than adequate the 30hamr/30-223 are giving you better perforamance with the only downside being burning more powder, which is likely inconsiquential in this siutation.

The appeal of cast bullets to me is guaranteed availability as long as you can find lead. Current projectile situation is exactly why I like the idea of casting. I also enjoy tinkering and I design my own bullets and machine my own molds.
The smaller caliber high velocity cartridges just don't work that well with cast projectiles for larger game and to me a .30 is about as small as you can go and still get decent weight behind a reasonable length projectile.
The fact that you also have a speed limit of around 2200fps adds to the need for weight. 140-160gr seems to perform well at this velocity and it so happens that you can achieve this out of a little case like a 300 HAM'R, thumbs up all round in my books.

Subs are interesting and I have a short 45-70 single shot that I am loading cast 450gr flat nose projectiles at 1050fps which is great fun, but the trajectory and sights limit it to inside 100m realistically.

I have enough high velocity high BC laser beams that can kill to 800m+, cast bullets are the other end of the spectrum and is its own challenge, which I enjoy.

Originally Posted by Stocky

Nope not even close.

Lower pressure and more case case capacity means incomplete burn with almost all powders with light projectiles that work best in the slow 30 calibres. This in turn leads to suppressor wear and typically higher SD.

I have a 30-30 barrel and trying CFE BLK now but it struggles to fill the case so expecting erratic velocities.

I would have thought you would be using 150 plus grains of projectile...the dirty 30 isnt a heck of a lot faster to begin with...the 4 loads I posed from ADI were 1500-1700fps with 150grn cast
the 308 and 7.62x39mm didnt take a heck of a lot different amount of trail boss to go subsonic..I would have thought the 30/30 would slot in between nicely and the long neck just has to help hold cast projectile well to get it off to good start.
there are plenty of powders that will fill the case easily.... and some really cheap,really dirty stuff that likes cast projectiles too....it could even be said the 30/30 was MADE for it LOL....