358 Win load help and sggestions

I'm about to start loading for my 358 win. I have dies, made brass from 308 cases, ADI 2208 and trailboss. ( my 243 powders are W760/H414 and supreme 780)
projectiles are 225 game kings which i gave plenty of load data for and

The mystery I need suggestions for is the 357 cal Hornady 158 gr XTP hollow point.
I have load data and COA length info for 180gr sp and 200gr flat nose but the COA is way too long for the XTP's.
I'm thinking of aprox 48gr of 2208 and loading the bullet to the base of the neck still short of the ring around the bullet.

Only looking for aprox 2500fps as that way they will shoot to a similar POI as the GK's out to 200mtr.
Goats, fallow deer, fun shooting etc. Game Kings for tougher animals and out to 300 mtr.
Zq

Ps. why the XTP's? Bullets are less than half the price of the game kings. Want something light for small game (goats) and easy on the shoulder.

I've got some hornady 200grn round nose designed for the 358win you can have and some 357 180 Hp's. I'm in mangawhai.

Let me know the COAL you propose to use and I'll run it in Quickload for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Walker

I've got some hornady 200grn round nose designed for the 358win you can have and some 357 180 Hp's. I'm in mangawhai.

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PM sent thanks

Hi Tentman,
Thanks for that Offer. I will measure then tonight and post the details.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tentman

Let me know the COAL you propose to use and I'll run it in Quickload for you.

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Thanks Tentman

Data for 358 Win
Bullet 158 Gr
COAL 2.3" - 2.4" (Short)
ADI 2208 (Varget) 48 gr
Barrel 20 "
Action Savage 99 (1975 308 rebarreled)
Target velocity 2500 fps

Was looking to keep the OAL length as long as possible but these bullets are short compared to the larger Spire points.
Hornady 357cal 158 gr Hollow Point XTP Bullet BC 0.206 is only 0.671" (17.05mm) long.
Cartridge OAL somewhere between 2.3" - 2.4" (58.5mm - 61mm)
That gives me 6.4mm to 8.8mm of insertion into the neck of the cartridge.
I have got load data from Hodgdon, Lee, Accurate & ADI. It all looks like they got it from the same source.
180 gr Barns and 200 gr Hdy both have a min of 47 gr and a max of 51 gr compressed for a velocity range of 2400-2600.
I dropped 51 grs in into a case and it would have been 3mm from the mouth. How much compression is acceptable.

Thanks
Zq

Here Tis'

Cartridge : .358 Win.
Bullet : .357, 158, Hornady HP/XTP 35750
Useable Case Capaci: 49.634 grain H2O = 3.223 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch = 60.96 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : ADI AR 2208

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 86 38.40 1919 1293 18940 4277 65.6 1.444
-18.0 89 39.36 1970 1362 20203 4462 67.1 1.405
-16.0 91 40.32 2022 1434 21551 4649 68.6 1.368
-14.0 93 41.28 2074 1509 22991 4836 70.1 1.328
-12.0 95 42.24 2126 1586 24527 5024 71.5 1.289
-10.0 97 43.20 2180 1667 26175 5213 73.0 1.250
-08.0 99 44.16 2233 1750 27936 5401 74.4 1.213
-06.0 102 45.12 2288 1836 29825 5588 75.8 1.177
-04.0 104 46.08 2343 1925 31849 5775 77.2 1.142
-02.0 106 47.04 2398 2018 34022 5960 78.6 1.108
+00.0 108 48.00 2454 2113 36360 6142 79.9 1.075
+02.0 110 48.96 2511 2212 38877 6323 81.3 1.044
+04.0 112 49.92 2568 2313 41588 6500 82.6 1.013
+06.0 115 50.88 2626 2419 44518 6675 83.8 0.983
+08.0 117 51.84 2684 2527 47685 6844 85.1 0.954
+10.0 119 52.80 2743 2639 51118 7010 86.3 0.926

mate in sweden uses them for that very reason(cheap cheap specially in bulk).....in a laminated model 7 no less.... beautiful rifle and the BIG european hogs he knocks over with it dont seem to mind.

Hi Tentman,
That's great. Thanks for the information and guidance.
Those number bear out what I was thinking and experiencing. I could not see how 51 gr was going to fit.
Usable case capacity of 49.6 gr looks real.

Looks like I will have to go a grain hotter up to 49 gr to get the 2500 fps I was after.
The nice thing is that the Chamber pressures will be well down at 40,000 psi so I won't be giving the action too much of a hard time.
3.75" high at 100 mtr with a 200 mtr zero.
Virtually the same as the 225 Game kings if I can get them to 2400 fps (staying under 49gr of powder) but the GK's hang in to 300 mtr only 9" low.

Thanks again
Zq

I shoot 225gr serria, with 49g varget for a hunting load, factory Hornardy 200gr are same point of impact at 100m.
I didn't have much luck, with the 140gr and 158gr so far, low and to the left 2-3" at 50m, I was using 15gr trailboss. biggest problem is, I can get consistent feeding from the magazine, with blunt nose pistol bullets.

@Micky Duck there called “Boar” over here old chap:P
You want “Hogs” go to the Sates:D
Yep .358 dose a really nice number on them.:thumbsup:

pigs.poakas.gruntasaurusdeloris/boris.hogs.porkers. all the same thing and a boar has nuts a sow has tits and a barrow (doesnt have one wheel and two handles) was a boar but has had a wee operation so now has no nuts.
they all make bacon mmmmmmmmm bacon.

Well got some rounds down range over the weekend.
158's with 49 gr and 225 with 48 gr of Varget / 2208. (Did try up to 48.5 with the 225.
All worked well. No issues with extraction on the lever etc. Could even re chamber the fired brass just about all the way. (my 243 lever stopped well short without a full resize)
Only issue is that the 158's are well to the left of the 225's. Some more range and chronograph time required.
The 225's definitely have more authority to them at the shooter end of things.
Need to pay more attention to holding the stock to avoid scope eye with them as well. Had a near miss or 2.
Zq

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

pigs.poakas.gruntasaurusdeloris/boris.hogs.porkers. all the same thing and a boar has nuts a sow has tits and a barrow (doesnt have one wheel and two handles) was a boar but has had a wee operation so now has no nuts.
they all make bacon mmmmmmmmm bacon.

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To added to that those are just the English words let's not get into French Spanish Italian Turkish........:XD:

Had the 358win out again this days off, for a ruger it can sure shoot,
horrible gusty windy day, fun whacking the gong, with the 200gr round nose, sure make a splat,
50g varget and 225gr, very accurate for a thumper. 2450fps.
Attachment 88846Attachment 88847
200m, 50mm gp with 225gr, 60mm with the 200gr FTX I am just starting to play with. 50gr varget giving 2525fps, probably need a slightly faster powder.
Attachment 88848

Its pissing me off, that the pictures turn sidewise.

Hi Southernman,
You would have to be pleased with those groups.
I need to get out and get some more range time.
How did you go about getting 50 gr of Varget (or in my case ADI 2208) in a case.
I'm using resized win 308 brass and on the first load even 48 gr is compressed with the 225gr Gamekings. Possibly next time around they may have a bit more space but as I can rechamber a used and unsized case in my lever action I don't expect I will gain much.
Z

without checking manual......maybe the likes of winchester 748 MIGHT be better option as 50 grns will fit in case without issue (do it with .308) the fine ball powder much easier to get into case than big chunky ADI stuff.....really notice it in the poohseventy the difference between win 760 and AR 2213 is unreal LOL.

I use W760 for 87gr and W780 Supreme for my 105 gr projectiles in 243 and it's easy to work with.
My load research for the 358 came back with a max of 49 gr Varget with 225 gr at 2.77" COL and a max of 51gr compressed with 200 gr or lighter projectiles.

Question should be how much compression is acceptable. Even at 48 gr under the 225 gr Game king I am compressing it up to 2 mm. If I drop the powder in slowly and with a little more height I get less compression.

Z

I drop powder from a harrels powder thrower, its a compressed load, and I am seated to Oal of 71.2mm, Hornardy cases.
No problem to compress 50g varget, it has lots of air gaps, In the Hornardy cases, I am about 2mm from the top of the neck, before seating.
50gr Varget with 225 Serria gives me 2450fps, (24" barrel)
49 gr = 2416
48 gr+ 2380,
You will see load data for compressed loads, to about 110%,
Ball powder is finer, but a bit more temp sensitive, and we get -40 in winter and 38 c in summer.
longer drop tube, will allow the powder kernals to pack better,
My rifle is a modern ruger bolt action, I be a bit more weary of hot loading a modern lever,
Your likely at 2300 plus, with a 20" BLR, sight in 2" high and you be dead hold to 250 ish,

Thanks, that's exactly the information i was looking for.
Rifle is a rebarreled 1975 Sav 99. (was a 308)
I don't feel any need to push my lever guns so normally I run them about 1 gr under book recommended max. I do like to work up to 1 shot at book recommended max just so i know i have some head room over my working load.
I was hoping to get to 2400 with the 225gr bullet but no animal in NZ is going to quibble over 50 or 100 fps. won't be out with the chronograph for a few weeks yet.
Z

Well finally made it out with with the chronograph and also was able to test a few rounds out on goats getting some Dog food.
I have one of those basic Alpha Chrony units. I was shooting with it aprox 2 mt from the muzzle with a silencer in place so hopefully I'm not getting errors

158 gr XTP with 12 gr tail boss was at aprox 1440 fps
158 gr XTP with 49 gr 2208 (varget) was at aprox 2550 fps
225 gr HPBT with 48 gr 2208 (varget) was at aprox 2450 fps

Starting to think my chrony is reading a little high however the reading with 49 gr of 2208 under the 158 gr XTP is only 30-40 fps higher than predicted which given that I have added a silencer that may account or some of it.
Zq

As to the goats.
At pistol velocities 1400 fps the 158gr xtp passed through the goats leaving 1" sized exit wounds and significant damage. Goats were small - medium Nannies at 5-40 mtrs.
At the 2550 fps on a medium Nannie at 40 mtr the base exited but under the off side shoulder was a wound 150mm long by 75mm high. Bullet went in just forward of the foreleg and the exit wound went from the throat to back under the shoulder blade.
Zq

sounds like you have got it sorted and that trailboss load is a winner for sub hundred yard stuff...

Trailboss sure will be my go to for goats. the 158gr Xtp at 1400 fps was far less destructive than at 2550 fps or what my 243 loaded with berger's does to the off side of a goat.
it still makes a large free draining hole but without so much meat damage.
Zq

Im the formerly mentioned mate in Sweden, decided to weigh in with some loads for you to try. I use Sierra GK 225gr and Nosler JHP 158gr .357. Both loaded with 45gr Norma 201, the noslers hit about two inches high at 100m. Suppose im a bit late to enter the thread but ill do the best I can to answer any questions you may have. Below are a couple of HOGS and a group with the noslers at 100m. I use my shorty rifle in the bush so dont bother shooting much further, just zero gamekings 1inch low and 357s 1inch high and then mix and match according to what needs shooting.

Attachment 92444

Attachment 92445

Attachment 92446

quick guys hide the pies!!!!!!!! LOL

You tell wifey to hide the pie up Mt Studholme where I wont go looking for them.

Hi Sidelock, thats a nice looking unit you have and some good looking food on the ground.
Did you get them with the Gamekings or the JHP?
Any idea what sort of velocity you are getting
I opted for the 358cal GK's after running into a mob of pig with my 243 last year. I put 3 down but the large boar took a bit of anchoring.

I have not shot anything large with the gamekings yet. Hope to get a spring hunt in got a large Red deer so will try it them them.
As noted the 357cal 158 gr at 2550 would not be much good on a large animal in close but once the velocity drops they work well.
Zane

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZQLewis

Hi Sidelock, thats a nice looking unit you have and some good looking food on the ground.
Did you get them with the Gamekings or the JHP?
Any idea what sort of velocity you are getting
I opted for the 358cal GK's after running into a mob of pig with my 243 last year. I put 3 down but the large boar took a bit of anchoring.

I have not shot anything large with the gamekings yet. Hope to get a spring hunt in got a large Red deer so will try it them them.
As noted the 357cal 158 gr at 2550 would not be much good on a large animal in close but once the velocity drops they work well.
Zane

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I use gamekings for everything with hooves.

357 jhp is an explosive pill in rifle loads, i only use them on fox, badger, cat etc or headshots. Would definately load them for roos and goats if I still lived in NZ. Loaded subsonic with trailboss they mushroom perfectly, highly recommended bullet for such loads.

Dont know how suitable 243w is for big and tough animals, over here 6,5x55 with 156-160gr pills is legal minimum. You can go as low as 140gr but that requires handloading and a fair bit of ”optimism” to reach minimum energy requirements for shooting big game.

My shorty is not keen on building velocity, I get about 2250fps with gamekings and 2400 with noslers, though I know others who use the same loads and they all get 100-200fps more. Not relevant at bush range, I have taken pigs, moose and various deer aswell as small game and know of moose taken past 300m with 225gr gamekings so Im confident that my velocity will be adequate for what I do.

What you can expect to see when a gameking is placed in the boiler room (if the animal doesnt drop) is that whatever you shot KNOWS it was hit. No running 100+ yards as if nothing happened, instead the animal will slowly stagger 20 yards or so and then kneel. Very low meat damage, usually looks like you poked a broom handle through the ribs.

Thanks Sidelock. I'm looking forward to trying the GK's on some Reds alter this year.
Whats your Barrel length?
I consider the 243 as being suitable for most NZ game excluding large boar and cattle. You do need to pick and choose your projectiles however and match them to the game and range.
All good until you get caught out with a soft projectile at short range or a hard one at long range. I can hold 1000 ftlb of energy out to 500 meters with the Bergers or the ELD bullets.
re the 357 cal projectiles, thats my experience as well. at reduced velocities (1400 fps) on goats they blow though with a nice 1" exit hole but speed them up to 2550 fps and they blow up and I assume would be ineffective on large game at short ranges giving surface blow ups.
I want to try then at around 2000 fps on goats to see what sort of penetration I get. Looking for a load suitable for small deer / goats inside 100 mtr when I don't want to use the GK's.
Zq.

Barrel is 18,5”.

If 357s do not satisfy, try a load with 35cal hornady flextip for goats and push it like a 35 remington.

Thanks Sidelock.
probably will buy a box of the 200 gr FTX next time.
the gamekings are a bit much for goats and small deer.
the 357 look like they will be great for turning possums into red mist but that's about it.
The GK will be my primary load. getting about 1.5" groups at 100 mtr with 4x scope prone on a rest.
should get better with practice.
Zq

GK are not at all too much for small deer/goats, ive properly tried it on roe deer and piglets.:thumbsup: Maybe too much for your shoulder. ;)

hehehe re shoulder. Would not want to be firing off large numbers of the 225's at >2400 fps.
It's not too bad, have fitted a good pad and added a moderator and it's not ultra light.
At the range on Sunday I was using a bipod and then my fore arm wrapped through the sling to hold it down tight to the bipod and force it back into my rear bag and shoulder.
This felt quite stable.
I do need a new Bipod as my existing one turned out to not be up to the task. Leg length moved between shots.
Cheer's
Zq
PS will get out in a couple of weeks and try the GK in a goat.
Have run out of goat for dog food so back to store brought stuff for now.

Sidelock is very correct. I nailed a couple of goats yesterday when I went out with my son.
at a range of about 50-70 mtr. Let son take first shot with his older brother's 223.
He had a good rest on the bipod shooting down on to them and neck shot his one.
I only had a sitting shot as the grass was too long. Nailed 2 with body shots.

The end result was my son's goat we took the whole body home.
My 2 we just took bits . One had broken spine and was unzipped from sternum to pelvis.
The other had a 6" hole where it's spine was between the shoulder blade and the exit was full of stomach contents.
End result. Lots of fun but very wasteful. Clean side on body shots or neck/head shots would be fine.
Does give me lots of confidence for tackling larger game.
Think I will pull my 158 gr XTP rounds and as I don't have a lot of confidence in them at high speed.
Will reload them at lower speeds (<2000 fps) for fun shooting etc.
Zq

hmmmm that sounds like a really great wallaby load....varmit red mist on a large scale LOL.

hehe I'm so tempted to keep a few of the 158 gr XTP's at 2550 fps just to "vanish" some possums. On goats I only got about 100-150mm of penetration and complete blowup with no exit hole.
Don't get many wallaby's where I shoot but a mate got some recently around rotoura lakes. Commented on how tough the skin was on the knife edge.