44-40 ammo

Just bought an old marlin lever action, looks like ammo is as rare as hens teeth and prices are through the roof.
Not too sure if its a good idea to put jacketed rounds through this old gun, although copper should still be softer than the steel?
Ive got a pack of the stuff that came with the gun, about 20 rounds or so of modern jacketed ammo and a few older ones with lead rounds, not sure if they have corrosive primers or not.
Is reloading feasible? I dont have any reloading gear, but wonder if its worth talking to someone in a pistol club or black powder club. I expect reloading would be the most economical way to shoot this caliber.

Yes reloading is the most economical way to shoot it, if you can find the brass.
There is bound to be someone up that way who could load some ammo for you.

And I've only ever shot lead through mine.
CAS rules so thats just the way it is.

Lead projectiles are much cheaper also

Reloading is definitely the most economical.
The Winchester 200gr 44-40 jacketed soft point ammo will probably be fine as it is absolutely piss weak.
I've got 80 Rounds of the Factory Winchester ammo. Cost me 139.99 for 50 rounds. I don't use it as I reload and have several hundred rounds on hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jim160

And I've only ever shot lead through mine.
CAS rules so thats just the way it is.

Lead projectiles are much cheaper also

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Yeah no surprises there, I see that gun city has the cowboy rounds, but they still not cheap.
Are the primers the same as other calibers?
I really need to get a reloading press if something turns up. I have some spare brass here too which is good.
Are molds available to cast the bullets? That would even give more cost savings I expect.

PM shooterNZ for cast projectiles.
Think he’s on TM as well
Large pistol primers are the way to go.

@JohnDuxbury knows the secrets for this cartridge/rifle hopefully he will chime in...but do a forum search as there is good thread already on them

Following with great interest

Plenty of reloading done. Me and a mate do a fair bit with Rossi 92s..As above John Duxbury is very knowledgeable. Do the research incl on this forum as the brass needs care especially with smokeless powder loads. A Lee FCD is mandatory if not seating your bullet on Black Powder. I use both lead from shooternz but also 44mag powder coated Hawke River projectiles from Delta Mike. The latter are very uniform, accurate and reliable also pretty cheap. Mate uses a lot of Titegroup loads and seems to have no trouble with bullets recessing in mag tube, using heavy crimp with the Lee FCD. I like AR 2205. John Duxbury got me headed in the right direction. Have fun

I usually load with black powder but also have been using 700X, but that's almost run out so I will be using APS350 once the 700X is gone.
Be interesting to see if there is any unburnt powder with the APS350. There always seems to be unburnt powder with the 700X

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....choices-80481/

heres more great info form this forum not from me but i have used this with great results

What rifle are you reloading for?
Do you know what bore size you have?

If you have a modern rifle then it is most likely you have a .430 bore size. The 200g Hornady XTP is an excellent jacketed bullet. (You can use the 240 grain XTP as well.)

I reload a lot of .44 WCF for two different rifles, with both smokeless and blackpowder. Send me a PM if you want to know anything. For dies, get whatever you like, but make sure you order a Lee crimp die from (Reloaders Supplies) You will need it if you want to crimp your cartridges. (With the thin .44-40 case mouth, other crimps do not work well)

Everything is the same as normal except you have to expand the case mouth a little to seat a bullet. It's not really harder than anything and you wont wreck any cases if your using a Lee crimp die to crimp with..

If you are loading for a lever action, then using a crimp that will hold the bullet is important, again the Lee crimp die is partly the answer, but the best answer is to use a bulk powder load that fills the entire case and supports the bullet, either black powder, or with smokeless use AR2207 or RE7.

Black powder requires you compress the powder. It also requires a soft cast lead bullet, and a soft lube. If the bullet is pure lead (which is what they used) then it doesn't matter what diameter or bore size you have really, it will bump up in the bore with black powder. (But may not with smokeless.)

Despite what the internet says it is still possible to load 40 grains of black powder in a modern case (and always was) there is some old knowledge that has been lost regarding black powder reloading.
Velocity is 1130fps from the '73 and 1200fps from the '92. Shot three deer so far with this load and never got a bullet back despite the soft pure lead and the low velocity. If you want to try blackpowder let me know and I can tell you more if your interested.


Smokeless loads with a 200 grain lead (or jacketed) bullet:

8.5 grains of AP70N (Universal in American books, or a close similar powder to Unique) and a 200 grain bullet is very accurate in both my rifles (ten shots into 1.5 inches at 100 yards.) low powered but accurate about 1120 fps. (Same as a .44 Rimfire - appropriate for a Winchester 66 or a Henry rifle) This will kill a deer just fine, but I consider it a gallery load. Would be good for CAS if that's what your into.

26 grains of AR2207 (H4198) mimics the original Dupont bulk smokeless load introduced in 1895 - the powder fills the case like black powder does, and supports the bullet ( so it doesn't telescope inside the case in a lever action magazine tube) Needs a solid crimp to burn properly. Quite accurate (1.5 inch groups at 100 metres depending on the bullet. XTP's are great.) Excellent smokeless load for the 1873, 1866, and Henry rifles. Velocity is the same as the original .44-40 load - 1380 fps from a Winchester 92, and 1300 fps from my Winchester 73.

This same load can be made with Reloader 7 also, giving a little higher velocity (1400 fps), and yet still suitable for '66's and 73's.

A duplex load of 2 grains of AP70N as a primer under 24 grains of AR2207 will make a cartridge that mimics the high velocity load that Winchester introduced in 1903 and manufactured until WW2. This give 1500-1600fps depending on the rifle. Jacketed bullet only. This is a '92 load only.

24 grains of AR2205 (H4227) will give a high velocity load up near .44 magnum territory with a jacketed bullet. Accuracy is good with an XTP, and velocity is 1680 - 1700fps. This is a '92 load only.


The .44-40 is one of my favourite cartridges. I am not a CAS shooter though, I hunt deer with mine.
Last edited by Carlsen Highway; 18-02-2018 at 11:38 PM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bluecod1967

heres more great info form this forum not from me but i have used this with great results

What rifle are you reloading for?
Do you know what bore size you have?

If you have a modern rifle then it is most likely you have a .430 bore size. The 200g Hornady XTP is an excellent jacketed bullet. (You can use the 240 grain XTP as well.)

I reload a lot of .44 WCF for two different rifles, with both smokeless and blackpowder. Send me a PM if you want to know anything. For dies, get whatever you like, but make sure you order a Lee crimp die from (Reloaders Supplies) You will need it if you want to crimp your cartridges. (With the thin .44-40 case mouth, other crimps do not work well)

Everything is the same as normal except you have to expand the case mouth a little to seat a bullet. It's not really harder than anything and you wont wreck any cases if your using a Lee crimp die to crimp with..

If you are loading for a lever action, then using a crimp that will hold the bullet is important, again the Lee crimp die is partly the answer, but the best answer is to use a bulk powder load that fills the entire case and supports the bullet, either black powder, or with smokeless use AR2207 or RE7.

Black powder requires you compress the powder. It also requires a soft cast lead bullet, and a soft lube. If the bullet is pure lead (which is what they used) then it doesn't matter what diameter or bore size you have really, it will bump up in the bore with black powder. (But may not with smokeless.)

Despite what the internet says it is still possible to load 40 grains of black powder in a modern case (and always was) there is some old knowledge that has been lost regarding black powder reloading.
Velocity is 1130fps from the '73 and 1200fps from the '92. Shot three deer so far with this load and never got a bullet back despite the soft pure lead and the low velocity. If you want to try blackpowder let me know and I can tell you more if your interested.


Smokeless loads with a 200 grain lead (or jacketed) bullet:

8.5 grains of AP70N (Universal in American books, or a close similar powder to Unique) and a 200 grain bullet is very accurate in both my rifles (ten shots into 1.5 inches at 100 yards.) low powered but accurate about 1120 fps. (Same as a .44 Rimfire - appropriate for a Winchester 66 or a Henry rifle) This will kill a deer just fine, but I consider it a gallery load. Would be good for CAS if that's what your into.

26 grains of AR2207 (H4198) mimics the original Dupont bulk smokeless load introduced in 1895 - the powder fills the case like black powder does, and supports the bullet ( so it doesn't telescope inside the case in a lever action magazine tube) Needs a solid crimp to burn properly. Quite accurate (1.5 inch groups at 100 metres depending on the bullet. XTP's are great.) Excellent smokeless load for the 1873, 1866, and Henry rifles. Velocity is the same as the original .44-40 load - 1380 fps from a Winchester 92, and 1300 fps from my Winchester 73.

This same load can be made with Reloader 7 also, giving a little higher velocity (1400 fps), and yet still suitable for '66's and 73's.

A duplex load of 2 grains of AP70N as a primer under 24 grains of AR2207 will make a cartridge that mimics the high velocity load that Winchester introduced in 1903 and manufactured until WW2. This give 1500-1600fps depending on the rifle. Jacketed bullet only. This is a '92 load only.

24 grains of AR2205 (H4227) will give a high velocity load up near .44 magnum territory with a jacketed bullet. Accuracy is good with an XTP, and velocity is 1680 - 1700fps. This is a '92 load only.


The .44-40 is one of my favourite cartridges. I am not a CAS shooter though, I hunt deer with mine.
Last edited by Carlsen Highway; 18-02-2018 at 11:38 PM.

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Ive recently bought an old Marlin 1889, just taken it into the store the other day and told me the rifling is still pretty good.
I had spoken to custom cartridges and he told me to slug the bore to work out the correct size, but ive been told that this bore is still good enough to put the standard sized rounds through it.
I dont know alot about reloading yet, but my friend has all the gear and I could get the right dies if necessary.
I was talking to reloaders supplies and he talked about "large" rifle primers but said they were out of stock and I asked what about pistol primers and he was like, oh yeah that would be the better choice.
Black powder would be more authentic I guess, but the hassle of cleaning the gun afterwards puts me off a little.
Ive got some ammo that came with it, mostly jacketed winchester and a few older rounds that im unsure if they have a corrosive primer or not.

Hi, If you are looking for 44/40 reloading dies I maybe able to help you out, I sourced a Lyman set for customer this week can check if the are any more in stock,
Today I will starting castings for a few orders of 44/40 projectiles 206 grain hollow points
Broncos in Tauranga has Fiocchi large pistol primers in stock at a good price they also so have Alliant Red Dot powder which is very good for medium loads
I have a 1 pound of Alliant Unque and 1 pound Alliant 2400 both good for the 44/40
Email robs.reload@gmail.com
phone 021 02724412

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shooternz

Hi, If you are looking for 44/40 reloading dies I maybe able to help you out, I sourced a Lyman set for customer this week can check if the are any more in stock,
Today I will starting castings for a few orders of 44/40 projectiles 206 grain hollow points
Broncos in Tauranga has Fiocchi large pistol primers in stock at a good price they also so have Alliant Red Dot powder which is very good for medium loads
I have a 1 pound of Alliant Unque and 1 pound Alliant 2400 both good for the 44/40
Email robs.reload@gmail.com
phone 021 02724412

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Thanks, thats good to know, I was just looking at your listings on trademe.
it might still be a good idea to slug the bore, i was told that there is a shipment of Italian stuff coming into the country soon which is supposed to be a good buy for the brass alone.

Here is some of the ammo I've got. The winchester stuff will be fine, but what about these older rounds?
Some of the primers are smaller too, my main concern is if they are corrosive. Have no idea on age.
Attachment 225617
Attachment 225618

Are you sure the Kynoch round stamped 44W is 44-40 and not 44 mag.
They are similar and with that crimp they may look the same but aren't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jim160

Are you sure the Kynoch round stamped 44W is 44-40 and not 44 mag.
They are similar and with that crimp they may look the same but aren't.

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It's stamped .44W doesn't say mag on it but doesn't say WCF either.

I would give it a good buffing and place it on shelf in reloading room,a bit of history,I cringe when think of some of the rare n collectable.12ga rounds Ive used over the years.strip the other rounds down and reuse components...probably safest to fire primers off and replace both them and powder with fresh new ones

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jim160

Are you sure the Kynoch round stamped 44W is 44-40 and not 44 mag.
They are similar and with that crimp they may look the same but aren't.

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The Kynock round has a very old primer like the lower USC CO round both could be Black powder,
the .44 mag is a straight case the 44/40 is bottle necked
I don't think Kynock load the .44 mag

Handloading for the 44-40 is really only cheaper if you already have loading equipment. If you have to equip yourself new, it could take a few thousand rounds to break even. However, for velocity and accuracy, you would be better off loading your own.

It can be a huge learning curve as well...be patient, chalk up a problem to experience and keep going!

The older cartridge can give you problems. If the powder/primers have been compromised, they will not work very well. If the cases have turned brittle with age, they will split longitudinally. The bullets can corrode and stick to the case wall and increase chamber pressures when fired.

Might be best to put them on a shelf and enjoy looking at them.

There is no turning back now... :-)

I might hold off shooting those older rounds then, but I think reloading will still be effective, I want to get a press anyway for loading other calibers.
At $3.60 per round, it's pretty expensive to buy new, especially for plinking.
I know reloading will be cheaper. I just got to get the die set for my friends press.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Old_School

I might hold off shooting those older rounds then, but I think reloading will still be effective, I want to get a press anyway for loading other calibers.
At $3.60 per round, it's pretty expensive to buy new, especially for plinking.
I know reloading will be cheaper. I just got to get the die set for my friends press.

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Yes it is!

I no longer shoot targets as I once did, almost extinct! I load for hunting now and that's about it.

I loaded for years with a single stage press, but now load with a Square Deal press.
Much easier but I've learnt lots along the way. Crushed plenty of cases and figured out that the old cases are a lot thinner and get crushed very easily.

Pretty much all my cases are Starline, with some Winchester amongst them. They last quite well with the lighter smokeless loads and black powder.

But now finding replacement brass is a lot harder.

Looks like I need to find some cheap reloading gear, been told to stay away from anything made by Lee because it's crap apparently.

well THAT information is a load of crap..... LEE makes great reloading gear....always have done

The problem with 44 magnum rounds is they .429-.430 and they can cause excessive pressure in older 44-40s that tend to be .427. You must slug your barrel. 44-40s vary greatly in barrel diameter and you need projectiles that are 1-2 thou greater than your barrel. Jacketed bullets make this even more crucial.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

well THAT information is a load of crap..... LEE makes great reloading gear....always have done

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Totally agree Lee make some of the best gear. I reload black powder 45-70 through to nitro 300wsm and have mostly Lee gear including bullet moulds for most

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

well THAT information is a load of crap..... LEE makes great reloading gear....always have done

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Well that's good to hear if it's true. I've been told by a number of people that their stuff is rubbish, hence their lower cost.
What about bullet moulds, are aluminum ones the best to go for or should I look for steel?

LEE gear is made with cheaper materials but works fine . . for me

LEE molds work fine . . some are outstanding

1st shots with LEE 500grn bullet subsonic yesterday evening.
2 shots 45 yards
3 shots 100 yards just over 1 inch or 27mm
rounds loaded with LEE dies

Attachment 225725:redbullsmiley:
500grn LEE bullet left
405 RCBS right
LEE molds breakin easy and generally speaking are well made for price point and make quality bullets
Attachment 225726

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rossi.45

LEE gear is made with cheaper materials but works fine . . for me

LEE molds work fine . . some are outstanding

1st shots with LEE 500grn bullet subsonic.
2 shots 45 yards
3 shots 100 yards just over 1 inch or 2 7mm
rounds loaded with LEE dies

Attachment 225725:redbullsmiley:

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I was told it's good to spend more on a decent mould.
There are supposed to be good ones out of Europe that cast hollow nose bullets.
I guess I should slug my bore and get the appropriate sized mould for my gun?
The Lee moulds all appear to be the same standard size from what I can tell.
Do I just need a mould, press and the right die to suit the brass?
There seems to be alot of different presses available I'm not really sure what I need to buy.

i will try to answer your questions inbetween watchin the leadup to the isle of man tt 2023 . . . just my opions tho

I was told it's good to spend more on a decent mould.
Nope . . amount you spend means nothing, does the bullet design/mold work in your gun.
Workmanship / quality is nice to use and own but it doesnt mean ya just gotta have it to succeed.
Ask yourself what you want to acheive and have at it . . if you go into this game with i want to save money you will fail unless your goals are very low.

back to the racing . . get back to ya later

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Old_School

I was told it's good to spend more on a decent mould.
There are supposed to be good ones out of Europe that cast hollow nose bullets.
I guess I should slug my bore and get the appropriate sized mould for my gun?
The Lee moulds all appear to be the same standard size from what I can tell.
Do I just need a mould, press and the right die to suit the brass?
There seems to be alot of different presses available I'm not really sure what I need to buy.

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I buy all.my cast projectiles from someone else. I have all the gear to cast my own, but it's cheaper and easier for me to get them from someone else.

The only ones I cast are the .459 projectiles for the 45-70. Because all the ones in the shop are .457 or .458 which don't shoot well in my rifle.

If you have the opportunity, try and load some using other people's gear. I started using the Lyman press, then a Lee, then RCBS, and have ended up using the Dillons and the RCBS single stage.

Expensive gear doesn't always perform the best. My 308 dies are cheap and ugly but are very consistent with loading.

It's a science, and it's always good to have an opportunity to try gear so you know what suits your needs the best.

I use the dillon presses cause I load hundreds at a time, but I still use a single stage to crimp them.

Seek as much advice from many people to get an informed decision on what to get. Everyone has a bias towards certain gear or brands.

If you get all the info, then you end up buying once, rather than buying stuff that doesn't suit.

Like others on here, I've brought stuff on someone else's opinion and didn't suit what I wanted.

Just my opinion.

I guess I should slug my bore and get the appropriate sized mould for my gun?

Yes . . its good info to know

as an example of how things dont always follow the rules . . the bullet / powder combo i used yesterday was i thought a poor choice but it seemed to work.
TRAILBOSS powder i used at the makers max load but was much lower than the charge weight used on the web and to top it off the powder was rubbished by 9 out of 10 shooters.
The bullet nose seemed undersized, in a perfect world it would just touch the bore and ride down the barrel guiding the bullet on its way, the driving bands were not over groove diamater which we all know ya need for decent accuracy . . all n all it didnt seem to offer much in accuracy to get me to the +200 i would like . . but it is a Big heavy bullet which would smash stuff up close and one thing i have learned is give it a go ya just dont know till ya try it . . . keeping in mind ya can fail just as easily

my other great LEE bullet is the 185 grain in my .45Colt it just works in my Rossi . . great on animals and paper.
i have other more expensive molds that are just ok.
so dont get into your mind your going to pick the great mold by listenning to others, you might but dont count on it.

back to the racing . .

Slug the bore so you know what size it is - they varied over the years. (If you only want to shoot bblackpowder, it dopesnt matter what size the bore is, as long as you use pure lead bullets. (not wheelweights etc) with a little bit of tin only. 1 or 2 percent.)
If you are going to shoot smokeless, then the bore size matters. Traditional bore size for the .44-40 is .426-27. Then you have to source traditional .44 40 bulelts. If you are lucky and your bore slugs .430 .431, you will be able to use jacketed bullets made for the .44 magnum. (200- 240 grain ones.)

If you want to shoot lead bullets, then get a mould. Get one from Accurate Molds in the USA. Well priced and they ship quickly. Good molds. Get an aluminum one, with two cavities and get the bullet sized for lead with 2% tin at whatever bore size you want. (They make them to order) Bullets come out bigger or smaller depending on the alloy used. The more tin you put in, the bigger your bullet will be, hence why you have to specficy your alloy when your order teh mold. Get a Lee lead pot. They work well and are cheap.

If you are starting out reloading as well, get a Lee press, and lee .44-40 dies, and get the extra Lee Crimp Die, which is essential for loading the .44-40.

Large pistol primers. I am not sure where you get 44 brass from now, but try Magnum imports / OUtdoors shop in Wellington. They handle the CAS stuff. Or spend a ridiculous amount and buy a box of 50 factory just to get the brass.

Send me a message if you want. .44-40 reloading is a labour of love, but you can do it. Black powder is fun too - and dont worry about cleaning - the 44 40 and your rifle were deisgned for shooting black powder. All you have to do is clean it is pour some hot water down the bore, two patches through, and then a patch of oil until next time. Cleaning BP with this cartrige is much easier than cleaning smokeless, or your modern rifle.

Oh and stop asking that guy at your gunshop questions. He doesnt sound like he is going to be any use to you at all. Send me a Om if you have any questions. For years the .44-40 was my favourite cartridge to reload.

Started on Lee reloading equipment back in the 70's. Went through RCBS, Lyman etc over the decades. Lee works just fine, stay away from the bullet moulds though. They turned to rubbish for me very quickly.

If anyone is still looking I have 500 odd rounds to sell, currently listed on trade me. will do a significant discount if someone buys the whole lot.

@Todidits
Can you pm me re you 44-40