44-40 Powder choices

I've been loading for a 44-40 Uberti 1873 for a while now.
I have two loads which are very accurate:
AR2207 26grn with 240grn Projectiles. Powder is compressed in this load.
Bullseye 6grn with 200grn projectiles.

The AR2207 load is good but unnecessarily hot for a target load and on the pressure limit I'd consider for the 1873 toggle link action.
The bullseye load is a pleasure to shoot and very, very accurate at 50m (yesterday key holed three shots measured at about .4" group).

However, the bullseye load varies in velocity by 220+ FPS in a load that averages around 990-1000 FPS. As a result I get quite significant vertical dispersion at 100m, it seems to hold together to 50 but the effect is marked at 100m. Enough that I won't be able to hit a target at that distance consistency.
I suspect this is because of the small amount of powder actually in the large case and ignition varies wildly as a result. I also don't like how little powder there is in the case as it would be possible to at least triple charge the cartridge and have no problem seating a bullet - my reloading method avoids this possibility but still irks me.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a powder that will deliver similar velocities to the Bullseye load but has far greater bulk with a powder that might be available.
I know a similar load of Winchester 231 would be about the same velocity but the Lee Volume Measure Density data shows that the volume of a similar charge of Winchester 231 would be smaller than Bullseye which may have the same issue.

black powder LOL.....

What about Trailboss?

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Originally Posted by Cigar

What about Trailboss?

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Would be perfect but doesn't fit in the guise of "with a powder that might be available"

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

black powder LOL.....

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Tempted. But I've no experience with black powder and the cleaning required makes me think I'd rather not.

trailboss for me
Sorry that doesn't help
But my Remington Baby carbine is pretty bloody accurate with 7.0 grains behind a 240 XTP
Well accurate for and 1888 carbine

My go to load is 7 gr of AP70 in 357 mag, 44 mag, 45 LC, 38/40 and 44/40.
I have a powder measure set up and it loads them all and is accurate in them all.

Sounds like, I should keep shooting what I've got and wait until either trail boss or AP70 is available again. Although ADI has notified they have basically stopped development on either of those...

I use 6 grains of WST (the old Winchester 452AA) with the 200 grain lead bullet and it is a good cowboy action load in revolver and carbine. It is about 760 fps in the 5.5" revolver and about 900 fps in a 20" M92 Winchester.

Do you crimp your ammo? It may help reduce the velocity spread.

Trailboss has come up for sale on here occasionally, a small amount makes a lot of ammo.

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Originally Posted by Cigar

Do you crimp your ammo? It may help reduce the velocity spread.

Trailboss has come up for sale on here occasionally, a small amount makes a lot of ammo.

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Certainly do. Lee Factory Crimp on all 44-40. Velocity spread is with crimp.

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Originally Posted by Makros

Sounds like, I should keep shooting what I've got and wait until either trail boss or AP70 is available again. Although ADI has notified they have basically stopped development on either of those...

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I do hope that " stopped development " isn't the same as stopped making trailboss !
They must sell tons of it into the usa

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

I do hope that " stopped development " isn't the same as stopped making trailboss !
They must sell tons of it into the usa

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Propellant Update – ADI World Class Powders and Ammunition
Does sound like it for now.

Your AR2207 load with 26 grains is well within safe limits for the '73. Nothing to worry about there, it was created for use in original '73's and still get proper .44 WCF velocities (You can make the same load with Reloader 7 as well)

There are no other powders with more bulk than these two above. You can play with fillers, semolina or toilet paper tissue for the powders I mention below, they are what I have experimented with, but I found no real joy in it and gave it up and have never returned.

If you want a lighter load for target shooting and what have you, then you need a tin of AP70N which does not seem to be as position sensitive as Bullseye. (Although is is still a bit position sensitive.) (Known as Universal, but can use the same loads as Unique) 8 grains will get you around the speed of sound 1125gps and it very accurate, ten rounds in an inch and a half at 100 metres from a Rossi and a Uberti.
(10 grains will get you 1350 fps(same velocity as the 2207 load) and should be considered max with this powder.

You can also use H4227 which is AR2205, light loads down around 18 grains and high velocity at 24 grains. (Which nearly fills the case) (1750fps in a 24 inch barrelled rifle and 200 grain jacketed bullet)

Crimp all of these loads stoutly to get a good powder burn.


I would avoid Trailboss. It is expensive for what you get, and has higher pressures. I have a bunch of it if someone wants it.


Of course the other solution, is to use black powder. Load 36 grains of 3F into an unsized case, crush it down with a jacketed bullet, (pull the bullet out - unsized case remember) and then load your pure lead bullet on top, and give it a light crimp.
Use Chefade fat as a lube on the bullets. You can mix a bit of beeswax in too, to thicken it up and stop it going off. Don't use commercial lube with black power.

You can shoot jacketed bullets with black powder as well, they work fine for the first few shots, (then run a damp patch through the bore). This time you use sized cases, and seat and compress the powder with the bullet as per normal. (No lube obviously)

You will learn a secret now about the .44-40 - Black powder cleaning is simple and easier than smokeless. The .44-40 case was designed for it and does not allow fouling to blow into the action. You simply pour water down the bore and then run a couple of patches through. Cleaned. Then you oil it like normal. Done.


Basically all I use now is 2207 for hunting AP70N for target shooting and messing around, and black powder loads when I am in the mood. If I wanted a high velocity load I would use 2205 but I have not bothered loading any HV loads for several years. The .44-40 should run at 1300fps. Thats what it does.

If you make any ammo with any of these powders that dont bulk fill the case like 2207 or RE7 do, for hunting applications instead of just banging them off at the range, you will need to learn how to crimp your cases underneath the bullet to stop bullet set back.

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....hooting-71442/

pretty sure ap70 is discontinued? anyway alliant unique is pretty similar burn rate wise, and it does exist, theres not alot of it but it is out there in the wild unlike trailboss

Thats annoying if it's true. If I could have found some Unique I would have got it before AP70, which always seemed to be available. Never seen any Unique in a shop. Black powder is s problem too, and was even before the shortage we're dealing with now.
Well, AR2207 does everything a .44/40 will require. It's about the only powder you CAN find.

I'm tempted by the black powder idea. I know I can get BP unlike all the smokeless alternatives listed - except AR2207.

The 44-40 would definitely be a perfect case to try. Seals chamber well with such a thin brass.

@JohnDuxbury why do you not size the case when loading black powder, just crimp?

Also if I was to shoot lubed cast bullets what's the firing/cleaning regime? Do you need to swab the bore occasionally or is the fouling kept soft, just clean at the end? I target shoot with it rather than hunting and have no desire to hunt with it, I have plenty of other rifles for that. So I could be firing 50+ rounds a session.

Not that I shoot it these days but my '92 gets fed bulk 200gr jacketed projs crimped ahead of 11.5grs of W540, MV 1150. Can't tell you the actual group average but in its day, it was good enough to win local AA shoots.

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Originally Posted by Makros

I'm tempted by the black powder idea. I know I can get BP unlike all the smokeless alternatives listed - except AR2207.

The 44-40 would definitely be a perfect case to try. Seals chamber well with such a thin brass.

@JohnDuxbury why do you not size the case when loading black powder, just crimp?

Also if I was to shoot lubed cast bullets what's the firing/cleaning regime? Do you need to swab the bore occasionally or is the fouling kept soft, just clean at the end? I target shoot with it rather than hunting and have no desire to hunt with it, I have plenty of other rifles for that. So I could be firing 50+ rounds a session.

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With black powder, you should be using pure lead bullets, or a lead mixture with only 1 or 2 % tin. (From solder) Loading with unsized cases stops deforming the bullet. YOu will need to compress the powder - but you cant compress it with a bullet, because you will squash your bullet, so you need to pre compress your powder (I do it with jacketed bullet, and then pull it out, and put a lead bullet in.)

You lube with soft stuff, not the commercial products, you can google what people use for lube but just fat or lard works. (I use chefade and beeswax mixture) The lube keeps the fouling soft, so it is blown out of the bore by the next bullet. (Unlubed Bp fouling otherwise gets hard and caked.)

You have to test your lube and see how well it is keeping the fouling down. You will find that you can shoot a number of shots and then groups open up considerably - your lube has been overhelmed. Then you run a wet patch through the bore to get all the fouling out, and then keep shooting.

Keep fouling down so you can shoot a long string like 30 or 50 rounds is dependant and using a a good soft lube, a bullet that has a groove that carries enough lube, and most of all, good quality black powder. Swiss is the best - most power, burns cleanest. Goex is no longer made. Locally made Nz BP called Holy Smoke, is about the same as Goex. (Lucky for us)

I do not do a lot of target shooting, I am mostly hunting, so I make my bullet and lube so that I can shoot a five round group with no fouling. Thats all I need, then I run a patch between each five round group. If you want to shoot 50 without cleaning you will need high quality powder and a bullet that carries a good amount of lube. (Again - commercial lubes are useless for BP)
Or you can do what I do and just swab out the bore in between every group.
The world of Bp shooting is a bit different than jacketed and smokeless loads and shooting. THere is more to think about, - fouling, and also the composition of your lead mixture, how much tin to use, how much compression of the powder to use. A good load might be a combination of a certain lead mixture, a certain lube and a certain amount of compression. All can affect accuracy.

Dont buy your bullets off Trademe. Commercial bullets are too hard for black powder, they are made from wheelweights or some other horrible thing that has antimony in it. You need soft lead. You do no t need to worry so much about bullet diameter then - pure lead or 1:50 mix bump up even if quite undersized. People make a big deal about bullet casting sizes because they are using hard bullets and shooting them with smokelss. F you do that and the bullet is too small, you get blowby and you will lead your bore. This is not a concern with black powder loads and the proper soft lead bullets.

If you can only get commercial cast bullets, then stick with smokeless loads and use the right size, a thou or two over bore diameter. If you can get pure lead or lead with 1-2% tin, then do the black powder loading. You should try casting yourself if you dont already.

Or use jacketed bullets and BP, as I describe in the earlier post - but you will need to swab the barrel more often. To an extent the hard jacketed bullet will scrape the fouling out with it, but after a few shots you will need to run a damp patch through. Some rifles five shots. Some twenty.

I know it's a bit of a long shot but is the Trail Boss still available?

Thanks.