.44 Mag Crimping

Hi Guys

So I'm reloading .44 mag for the first time - and crimping for the first time as this is the first pistol round I've reloaded. It seemed to go pretty smoothly but when crimping I got a very fine shaving of brass coming off the edge of the case, hair thin - as you can see in the picture. I backed off the die but couldn't find a way to stop it happening. Is this common? Is it a problem? Really not sure. I can easily just wipe the offending piece away with a thumb. Which is what I've done.

Also, just in general, does the crimp look ok?

Cheers

PS .44 mag Bergara single shot with a red dot is a lot of fun!

Attachment 98169

You need to seat with the case level with the top edge of the groove then it will crimp properly But as its a single shot you don't need to crimp and will get better brass life.

^^^ What he said!

I’ve loaded hundreds off 44 rounds and never seen that before.which brand of brass?

It’s Federal American Eagle - factory. Which I bought to get started. But I’ve got a bag of Starline on the way.

Thanks for the tip Cigar and Walker re crimp. I will have to at least straighten up the flare I put in it to seat the projectiles though eh? The dies are RCBS carbide. Maybe they have a sharp edge or something?

Those jacketed bullets don’t really have a crimp groove, so I’m not sure how a roll crimp would work. It does look like it’s overcrimped, but you’ve stated that you have backed it off. You could try a crimp die, which gives a different kind of crimp. Or just not crimp seeing as it’s a single shot.

Maybe I’ll try seating a bullet without flaring the case to seat it and if it goes in ok then I won’t have to crimp

Should work if you chamfer the case mouth, a seperate crimp die is handy I use them on my pistol calibres,

Cheers thanks very much for that and thanks to all!

What powder are you using? I'm using AR2205 with 240gr XTP's and it likes both a decent crimp and a magnum primer in order to get a good burn. I also load subs using Trail Boss (standard primer and just enough crimp to take out the flare).

When your seating die is crimping down on the case whilst it's still trying to seat the bullet at the bottom of the stroke, it's very easy to overdo it, when you're aiming for a heavy crimp. You can end up with the case buckling if you're not careful.

Because of that, and because I am messing the dies each time I want to switch between loads (vs having one load and leaving them set), I've opted to do it on two passes: 1st, leave the body screwed out so that I am only seating the bullet. 2nd, raise the seating stem and screw in the body until I get the desired crimp.

wait till you try the hornady leverlution projectiles !

Hey Pommy I’m using 2205 and 240 XTP also and have some trailboss for subs as well. And that’s the procedure I’ve followed for crimping too. Seemed easier than trying to do it all in one. Are you loading for a single shot or lever action?

Single shot Bergara, just like yourself. I had a red dot on there but, having crappy eyesight, I have just thrown on a VX Freedom to see how she groups at 100m. Surprisingly well!

The 200gr Frontier projectiles over 7.8gr of Trail Boss works beautifully at around 1030fps with an SD of around 10.

If you are going to crimp, seat the projectile so the edge of the case is just below the top of the cannula groove (top being closest to pointy end).
You don't need to crimp much, so try not to overcrimp. To stop projectiles moving in my tube mag 30-30 I only need to roll the case mouth slightly so that projectile can only move as far as the edge of the cannula.

Thanks Cigar that sounds like a plan. I’ll tweak my test loads just lightly. Pommy - snap! Same set up. I still have a red dot on mine. I’ve been umming and ahhhing about a low powered scope but the red dot is such fun. How do you like the VX Freedom? What mag is it?

2-7x33. I'm liking it so far. It's not much heavier than the red dot I had on there. Great little guns with possibly the nicest factory trigger I've ever used.

AS others have said, you are not crimping into the crimp groove of the bullet. Do your flare so you can seat the bullet, but remember you only need enough flare to just get the bullet started. With a jacketed bullet you really don't need much.

I saw that you are loading with 2205. It is necessary to have a good solid crimp when using 2205 so you get a proper burn. So seat the bullet so the top edge of the case mouth fits just underneath the top edge of the bullet cannelure, and give it a heavy crimp. Ignore the shaving your getting, (if you still get it) its not going to be doing anything harmful.
(If you get a few kernels of unburnt powder in the bore, that's fine. 2205 is just like that. It doesn't make any difference.)

Ideally - buy a Lee Crimp die. They only cost about $30. They do the best crimp, and much better easier and more accurate in getting the crimp you want than any roll crimp

Hi Carlsen Highway, thanks very much for that, really helpful. I’m going to follow that advice. I tried some loads on the weekend. I got perfectly acceptable groups at 100m with the red dot. (About 1.5-2”)

9 gn of 2205 seems to be a good sub load, although with the subs I tried, velocity was quite variable - maybe a heavy crimp will help there. I started at 9.3 and went down. Nothing went supersonic and the 9gn was at 990 fps

and for the full power it’s looking like 23.5 gn 2205, at 1720 odd. Velocity was acceptably consistent (low 1709, high 1730) but maybe a heavier crimp will help there.

Oh, and the subs are really quite quiet with the DPT. I’d still wear ear pro at the range but I think in the bush a quick shot might be ok without

They'll be even quieter if you switch to a faster burning powder. AR2205 gives me a nice jet of flame - whereas Trail Boss doesn't, because it burns up in the first few inches of barrel. Less pressure at the muzzle = less work for the suppressor to do = less noise.

If you watch SmarterEveryDay on YT, he did a very interesting video lately with subsonic vs supersonic ammo. Even a subsonic bullet can make the air it's passing through go supersonic as it displaces it. When you start dropping below mach 0.8 that stops happening and things will get even quieter.

It's just a shame the 1:20 twist doesn't stabilise the 300gr pills very well at those kind of speeds.

Why do you want 300grain projectiles? My 280 grain cast bullets will shoot through a pig at 100 metres with a muzzle velocity of 900 fps
and kill them on the spot, another 20 grains won't improve on that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PommyMcPomFace

They'll be even quieter if you switch to a faster burning powder. AR2205 gives me a nice jet of flame

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Whoops didn't make myself clear there - that's 9 gn of Trail Boss for the subs! Interesting about the .8 mach thing, I might try to go for that, get a load at around 850 fps? Would be, what, I guess 50m max for shooting goats or deer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PommyMcPomFace

They'll be even quieter if you switch to a faster burning powder. AR2205 gives me a nice jet of flame - whereas Trail Boss doesn't, because it burns up in the first few inches of barrel. Less pressure at the muzzle = less work for the suppressor to do = less noise.

If you watch SmarterEveryDay on YT, he did a very interesting video lately with subsonic vs supersonic ammo. Even a subsonic bullet can make the air it's passing through go supersonic as it displaces it. When you start dropping below mach 0.8 that stops happening and things will get even quieter.

It's just a shame the 1:20 twist doesn't stabilise the 300gr pills very well at those kind of speeds.

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Shape of bullet has something to do with that. Given equal subsonic / trans-sonic velocities, a spire pointed boat-tail bullet will have less surrounding supersonic waves than a round/flat-nose bullet will. Unfortunately, at subsonic velocities it's generally desirable to have more meplat / flat nose to aid energy transfer / expansion.

Right at subsonic velocity sharp pointy boat-tail bullets are useless, If head shots are the order of the day it does not matter what is used,
for sure kills on animals inside 150 metres the bigger the meplat the better.

What kind of grouping do you get with them? I've read it kind of goes to shit with the super heavies due to not having a fast enough twist.

that's a great vid btw. Just watched it. thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PommyMcPomFace

What kind of grouping do you get with them? I've read it kind of goes to shit with the super heavies due to not having a fast enough twist.

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I don't shoot them only have a 44/40 pistol they are to big for that, A mate uses them in an H&R with a 1:38" gets around an 1" groups at 50m.
bigest problem is the bore diameter they vary from .429" to .432" modern .44 mags have 1:20" twists and will handle 300 grain jacketed bullets
Cast bullets are short for their weight they don't have the jacket which is lighter than lead, also they are softer and reduce pressure with the same powder charge
and won't wear the barre.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shooternz

I don't shoot them only have a 44/40 pistol they are to big for that, A mate uses them in an H&R with a 1:38" gets around an 1" groups at 50m.
bigest problem is the bore diameter they vary from .429" to .432" modern .44 mags have 1:20" twists and will handle 300 grain jacketed bullets
Cast bullets are short for their weight they don't have the jacket which is lighter than lead, also they are softer and reduce pressure with the same powder charge
and won't wear the barre.

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How fast will you push one of your .30 / .303 cast gas checked 204grain boolits, and with what powder?

Best accuracy with cast is around the 1800-1900fps with the Alloy I use, If I source some antinomy and am super careful 3000fps
is possible it has been done in the US, But they are no good for hunting just like FMJ's straight through or shatter,
I prefer to make bullets for hunting much easier,
Powder choice is easy 2206H and 2208 start at 27.00 and work up just go for the best accuracy the HP's will expand at 900fps
the solids 1300fps,

I hate seating dies with grimp built in i much prefer backing the seating die off till it doesn’t crimp then I just run the rounds though a Dedicated crimp die the lee factory crimp dose an awesome job and cheap die to buy
As an extra for your set

Rambo, yes that's the way I do it too.

WillB - I would use AP70N rather than Trailboss for your sub loads. Although if what your doing works, then it works. I have tried sub loads in a .44 Magnum with Trailboss, but I do it with AP70N (Universal/Unique) in the .44-40, which is virtually the same case. 8.5 grains will get you just under the speed of sound with a 200 grain bullet for example, and accuracy is superlative.

(I found Trailboss unpredictable. Its really for Cowboy target shooters, who are not concerned at all with accuracy. The other downside is that Trailboss makes for higher pressures to achieve the same thing AP70 does.)

When dealing with the smaller amounts of powder in a big case, you can get velocity variations depending on which end of the case the powder is sitting in. I have tried filling the rest of the case with cotton wool, or folded toilet tissue. Both sort of worked to flatten out the variation in velocity by holding the powder back against the primer, but gave up on both, because its only good for the range - if you carry them around a lot hunting, and jack them in and out of the chamber, the powder sifts through your filler material, which cant be a good thing. (I pulled a couple of bullets and checked) Range sessions were interesting. Cotton wool and tissue paper flew everywhere.

Cheers for that. I have a big bottle of Trailboss so I guess I’ll work my way through that first. The cases are pretty full with 9 gn TB which is getting me around 900 fps. I’ve loaded a few more to try out but that’s how it’s looking. I got a Lee taper crimp die from Workshop Innovations - arrived in two days, great service - and that does seem to work. It’s good not having to reset the seating die all the time. I’m can still get those curls of brass coming off the lip tho. Maybe once I switch to the Starline that will change.

A common "trick" with low volume loads is to elevate the muzzle before a shot to tip the powder back towards the primer. Not really practical hunting I guess but my go to load for the 3030 is 10 grains of blue dot, no filler and a 180 gr flat point. It chronies 1100 plus or minus 20 and seems un concerned weather the powders on the primer, up the front or along the bottom.

You only have a problem with ignition when you get down around 5.0 grains of powder, we use to shoot 170 grain cast with 3.5 grains of Red dot with a dacron filler
in .308's in the days before suppressors great for practise and rabbits very quiet and good accuracy to 50 metres,
ADI has loads for Trail Boss in the .44 Mag starting at 6.4 grains with a 240 gr cast so 9.0 gr is not going to have any problem igniting

I went to large pistol magnum primers, also thinking that could help with getting full ignition

Can't hurt, only really need them for 296 2400 H110

The problem with loafing is experts can make it sound complicated and very technical when it can be very very simple if you want. Somewhere in between is the sweet spot for most.

Here is KISS lol

https://youtu.be/UeEl9wZyabc

A lot of what loaders do is really "optional".

A basic procedure.
1. De-Prime
2. Clean with cloth or in Aldi ultrasonic cleaner. (Optional) Dry
3. Visual inspection of fired cases looking for signs of pressures, case separation or neck cracking.
4. Anneal every few reloads or as required. (Optional)
5. Lube case including inside neck.and FLRS or neck size.
6. Wash/clean/remove all lube and dry.
7. Trim all cases & debur. (if required)
8. Prime.
9. Powder charge (Weighing charge is optional) scoops?
10. Seat projectile and check length. (OAL)