50 plus Years using Australian Rifle Powders

Greetings All,
In my recent fumbling with BM8208 I realised that it was a little over 50 years since I loaded my first cartridge. It was a .303 with a 180 grain Norma projectile, CCI primer and 34 grains of AR2201 powder. AR2201 powder had been developed about 1960 for use in the 7.62 Aussie ammo for their SLR. It was never a canister powder and its speed varied from lot to lot and not offered directly to the public. It was sold to wholesalers in 30 pound kegs which was then on sold in smaller quantities to the public. Mine came from CAC in a tin like the one below, later used for storing AR2206. The manufacturer provided no loading data but some privately developed data was available. Mine came from Reloading Simplified by Cyril Waterworth.
Attachment 236002
AR2201 was temperature sensitive and did not store well so in the late 1970's a new powder was developed at the request of the Army and three additional powders were added. These were AR2207, AR2206, AR2208 and AR2209. The manufacturer, Mulwex, did not develop data but this was done by members of the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia and published in a small pamphlet by Mulwex dated about 1985. AR2206 was the first of what are now touted by Hodgdon as their extreme powders.
By 1985 my .303 rifles had gone replaced with a .308 (later more than one) and a .223. I had fallen under the influence of Handloader Ammunition Reloading Journal and was using IMR4064 and IMR4895 plus AD2206 once my AR2201 ran out about 1983.
About 1990 the first of my 6.5x55 rifles appeared in the cupboard. Ken Waters had published some loads with the 120 grain projectiles and IMR3031 in his 1987 pet loads and AR2206 was supposedly the same speed. The chronograph revealed that it was much slower and a can of AR2209 was purchased which produced the goods.
Currently all of the powders I use come from ADI, BM8208, AR2206H, AR2209, AR2213SC and AR2217. I will try to pare this list down a little as stocks run out but I can't currently see the need for any others.
Regards Grandpamac.

ADI powders are very good. I have always appreciated that our western cousins have done pretty well keeping Kiwi shooters supplied when the Northern Hemisphere brands have been difficult to obtain. My favourites are among ADI, Alliant and Norma powders. I wouldn't like to be restricted to use of only one powder brand. I guess I enjoy tinkering too much. But if forced to ADI could cover most of my needs with the spectrum of burn speeds their powders offer.

Catching up to you GPM. Been handloading for 40 something years. Don't want to stop.

Started out in 1966. Got one can of 2201 off Dinny Collings around that time but cannot remember using it. Possibly gave it to a mate.
(Correction, I think the can from Dinny may have been 4740, not 2202.)

Loaded the 308 with excellent Nobels 2 until Nobels not longer existed although for some time after the end of that company Belmont continued to sell me Nobels from their cache.
My first 22/250 was loaded with Norma, another excellent accurate powder. Norma disappeared off the market for some time but seems to be back again. I won't be using it again as I found it quite temeperature sensitive, its only downside apart from availability.

Also used a lot of recovered milsurp 4895 in the early days when 30-06 could be bought for 2 cents a round.. A great cheap powder.

In recent years I have gravitated to virtually only use ADI the fact being that with powder shortages the Yankee brands become scarce (non existant) first. Also like the fact that the ADI powders I use are less temperature sensitive than their opposition equivalents.

Still have quite a bit of Reloder 15 (6.5x47L), VVN140 (6mmBR) and W760 (6.5AI) though. Like GPM will pare these down.
The last of my 3031 was used as a garden fertilser after it developed an acrid pong. Unfortunate, as I had a reasonable quantity of it.

Might add that after many years, I'm still learning.
Recently changed my whole reloading method and have stopped using bushing dies. Never too late to change.

I use mainly adi powders 2206h 2208 2209 and another one but I cant remember what it is off the top of my head. Lil gun gets used in the hornets and I bought a deceased estate of powder that has hodg imr and win amongst it that Im playing with. Been reloading about 30yrs

And of course ADI has long since been owned by the French Thales although I've never heard any concerns expressed about this. However, you can understand why the Yanks are getting het up about the Vista sell off.

We are certainly lucky to have a neighbor who makes decent smokeless powder

Also lucky to have excellent Black Powder being made in NZ

Lets just hope they both continue to sell to the public for ever

Now we just need some enterprising chaps to set themselves up to make primers and percussion caps

Ive still got an old paper mulwex manual..when 2213 was brand new....a couple of adi manuals and a thales one somewhere too...might have given that one to Allen????
the oldest one has some really interesting loads in it..like using 2206 in the 270...yip it worked but wasnt great. definately was some load development still going on back then.

Greetings all and thankyou for your likes and replies,
If I am being honest I likely have enough hunting ammo already loaded to see me out which leaves target shooting and pottering with my old soldiers. For this I likely have at least several years supply of components and more than that for powder and primers. Thanks for mentioning IMR4740 Zimmer. I had heard about it but can never seem to find out where. I gather it was a Canadian made surplus powder used in the .303 predating AR2201 and roughly the same speed. Cross referencing the data in the Mulwex pamphlets with later pressure tested data I found some to be quite weak and some fire cracker hot so it would be best to keep it as a curio rather than use any of it. I doubt if any of it was pressure tested.
Regards and thanks again Grandpamac.

My first powder purchase was in 1980, a kilo bag of H4831 so that may have come from over the ditch as well. I think it was 10 or 15 bucks. It went well in my Savage 243 using a whacka mole press untill i learnt about case seperation.

@grandpamac Came across this old document whilst surfing. Lists powders available to Oz and NZ reloaders. How times have changed.
Powders are listed from Page 62 (the booklet pages not the pdf document pages) onwards.
Attachment 236034

4740
Attachment 236036

When I started reloading there still seemed to be some bulk surplus WWII powders around. Usually large containers with no label. Ex various larger calibre weapons. Very much a suck it and see. Some worked some didn't. A miracle heads weren't blown off although in most cases the powders under performed in civilian catridges.

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Originally Posted by zimmer

@grandpamac Came across this old document whilst surfing. Lists powders available to Oz and NZ reloaders. How times have changed.
Powders are listed from Page 62 (the booklet pages not the pdf document pages) onwards.
Attachment 236034

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Greetings @zimmer,
Thanks for that. I have added the load data to my old data file. Based on the inclusion of the 7mm Rem Mag and the price of 7 shillings and sixpence it dates from the mid 1960's. My copy of Reloading Simplified is from 1970 or a little later and has no data for 4740. I remember reading somewhere that handloaders often used the same data for 4740 and 2201 and both powders burnt out their rifle throats at the same rate. I must be a far gone handloading looney when receiving data for some long dead powder fills me with joy.
Regards Grandpamac.

Attachment 236082
I thought we used IMR 4064 at first but this must be pretty old.

Attachment 236083
I did start with the silver 180gr but soon went to 130 which were really good. Ive got half a dozen empty boxes still.

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Originally Posted by zimmer

The last of my 3031 was used as a garden fertilser after it developed an acrid pong. Unfortunate, as I had a reasonable quantity of it.

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Same with IMR4740 here, the nice diethyl ether smell changed to something less pleasant and the interior of the tins rusted out. I had a few tins too, originally from Din no doubt but I think mine came via Neville Orr in UH who also used to handload a bit of ammo for me in the early 90s.

Was the 4740 from pulled 30.06? I thought it might have been? Worked fine for me in the .257 Roberts.

Unwanted powder can be lots of fun for the young 'uns by having their names written in big (cursive) powder letters across the garden, and putting a match to one end, and is even better after dark. Admittedly not so good for the lawn this way though.

Greetings,
I think that 4740 was used in the .303 in Canada.
GPM.

Greetings All,
The Arthritis has been having a bit of a gnaw at me recently so after a few fourpenny jobs this morning I seem to have wound up back at the computer. As mentioned there is a little bit of data for AR2206 0n the ADI site and I thought it might be interesting to see what could be learned from it. As most of you know ADI and Hodgdon have had a long term relationship since around 1986 and most of Hodgdon's extruded powders have been made by ADI since 1993. Hodgdon also appears to have developed the load data for ADI.
There was always a suggestion that AR2201 and later AR2206 was close to the same speed as IMR 3031 and since that powder was now part of the Hodgdon stable It looked like there should be enough data to make a comparison. The ADI data for AR2206 and the Hodgdon data for IMR3031 both have pressure expressed in PSI and were likely developed in the same lab at roughly the same time. For the 50 grain projectile the IMR3031 max load and pressure is lower which may be due to 3031 being a bulky powder so loads of AR2206 developing the same velocity and pressure as the 3031 load were interpolated from the AR2206 data. This is possible as both pressure and velocity are reasonably linear within their normal pressure range.
So what did I find out? Well based on the data AR2206 is a little slower than IMR3031 giving a little more velocity at the same pressure using a little more powder.
So what about AR2201 and AR2206 you ask? To be honest I don't know and I don't think we ever will. Any stocks of AR2201 are now almost 50 years old and the powder was noted for a short shelf life so testing now would be both foolish and pointless. I doubt that any pressure testing was ever done so I think that question is lost to history.
Regards Grandpamac.

My IMR3031 (RIP) shot very well in both my fullbore rifles and my old Sako 308 and my K31 Swiss. The only annoying aspect was about 1 in 10 charges through my RCBS Uniflow powder dispenser would jam/cut a kernel. Not a big issue, just threw those back in the hopper.

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Originally Posted by zimmer

My IMR3031 (RIP) shot very well in both my fullbore rifles and my old Sako 308 and my K31 Swiss. The only annoying aspect was about 1 in 10 charges through my RCBS Uniflow powder dispenser would jam/cut a kernel. Not a big issue, just threw those back in the hopper.

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I BELIEVE that was one of the main reasons that AR2213 BECAME AR2213sc the sc standing for shorter cut when I compare the hodgdon equivilent/same powder of older vintage with newer batch the grain length is about half what it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

I BELIEVE that was one of the main reasons that AR2213 BECAME AR2213sc the sc standing for shorter cut when I compare the hodgdon equivilent/same powder of older vintage with newer batch the grain length is about half what it used to be.

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Quite right,
The short cut version appeared in the US market late in 1994 about the same time as the "New" Varget appeared. We had been using AR2208 aka Varget for almost a decade. ADI had been making the old 4831 for years called 2213H and still does but only for Hodgdon.
Regards Grandpamac.

and heres a funny bit about those two powders.....in the mighty .270w with 130grn projectiles the data for H4831 tops out at 60 grns...but the AR2213sc and 2213 before it both stopped couple of grains lower. smae powder different label. and 60 grns crunches when seating projectile LOL,might be less crunch if could find the old norma 130s as they were tiny compared to other brands...must be denser materials.

Ive got mulwex manual put out by Australian Defence Industries...thats the oldest... ADI #2 #3 AND THALES #5 paper manuals

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

and heres a funny bit about those two powders.....in the mighty .270w with 130grn projectiles the data for H4831 tops out at 60 grns...but the AR2213sc and 2213 before it both stopped couple of grains lower. smae powder different label. and 60 grns crunches when seating projectile LOL,might be less crunch if could find the old norma 130s as they were tiny compared to other brands...must be denser materials.

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Greetings Micky,
Data does vary a bit but I can't find any data from either ADI or Hodgdons that lists anything other than 60 grains of AR2213SC or H4831SC. Current online data is identical and matches that in the 2,000 ADI and 2003 Hodgdons manuals. The data is for the 130 grain Hornady projectile and Winchester cases and may predate the switch to the ADI powder as pressure is in CUP. At the time that H4831SC was introduced to the US Handloader published an article by John Kronfeld. He tested the two powders along side each other in the same rifle with new Winchester cases and found that the 60 grain load and Sierra projectiles gave 3,026 fps with the SC version and 3,005 fps with the older stuff (actually AR2213H). The current on line data lists 3,019 fps. AR2213 and IMR4831 are both faster than AR2213SC so should not be compared with it.
Regards Grandpamac.