Thread: 6.5 Creedmoor load development

I have fairly recently entered the world of 6.5 Creedmoor after 20+ years of favouring .308win.
I strayed to this fad/trendy cal with scepticism and apprehension but a lot of curiosity and sat down to watch every youtube vids and read hundreds of forum posts etc

I was torn between a custom build 6.5x47 Lapua or a factory 6.5 creedmoor and was leaning the way of x47 lapua but after finding a cheap platform in Creedmoor I decided that was a better way to cut my teeth on the 6.5cal .

I eventually picked up a Remington 700 Tactical in Creedmoor and some Redding competition dies proceeded to experiment with accuracy and velocity.




Id consider myself an experienced reloader with plenty of match load seasoning but Im am almost embarrassed to say that the Creedmoor cal has challenged me and taught me more it 6 months than my 25+ years of reloading match grade ammo in any other cal.
It has been the hardest to tune load I have ever come across any has been plagued with pressure issues. I think I have tried every brass, powder projectile and primer combo out there available for this cal and very nearly threw in the towel writing it off all together as a bunch of exaggerated online hype.

That was until I tried something a little left field and hit the mother load.
I am almost afraid to mention the powder I use here for the fear it will deplete the NZ supply with its sudden spike of demand.
I can proudly say I have found my Creedmoor load nirvana.

The case is nothing more than a slightly oversized Bench rest style case and actually has a bigger case capacity than the 6.5x47 Lapua which seems to have no drama at the 3000fps mark. This was the mind frame that got my results.

Sure Creedmoor can be loaded to 2600 to 2700fps in 24"+ tubes with fair hunting accuracy using many of the easy to get powders and loading components but when I finally had the break through that combated high pressure and hang fires (powder v/s primer related) I was reaching velocities over 3000fps with 139gr Lapua Scenars with perfect ignition and no dangerous high pressure signs.

I have actually cut my heavy barrel back to 20" from 24" to get the best efficiency/accuracy node to suit this load and have now settled on a ragged hole cutter load of 136gr L Lapua Scenars running at 2910fps at are still supersonic at 1450 yards.

This cal has been an OCD adventure and a fun challenge that has had me pulling my hair out at times but looking back on it I learned so much from it that it has changed that way I look at reloading other cals.

Trade it in for a 270 job tidy

So when you’re ready, I will be first in the queue of those dead keen on hearing all about how you managed it. Sounds like it could be an epic write up, with some potentially quite profound outcomes.

(For those that haven’t been on the 65CM journey, those numbers would rattle a fair few cages, if repeatable in other cheap standard factory rifles, for damn sure.)

Nice

Yip this will be a lengthy thread boys so sit back and grab a brew, Ill add to this write up over the next few days and as time allows


Now before I even start on the journey to velocity and accuracy I need to make very clear that high pressure loads in my rifles are not an option, even more so in this particular project rifle as it was destined to be bedded into a custom Bullpup chassis I have been working on which places my right nostril over the breech.

I guess what Im trying to say is there was no room for error in this process so I needed everything to be right with my final load to feel at ease when pulling that trigger.









During the load development stage I had it set up in MDT LSS chassis and glassed with a Tac Vector Optics Paragon 6-25x55.
I started out with the full 24" 1-8" twist factory Remington tactical profile barrel (same as the varmint). The following months of load testing, chrono work and paper punching was done in this format.

Funny. I’d never thought about the consequences of a catastrophic fail in that config until you mentioned your right nostril. Now I get it.

I guess I also need to mention that I intended from the start to cut this barrel down somewhere between 18" and 20" to keep it a super compact platform in the pup stock and end up at approx 765mm total length without the suppressor.

So with that in mind I grabbed a few powders that I had on the shelf that I thought might achieve decent velocities in a shorter barrel.
I have always favoured ADI AR2208 for my .308's and .223s as they have always grouped the best for me with a variety of rifles and projectiles so that was my first trial along with some 2209 that everyone else seemed to recommend in this cal.




I was loading brand new Lapua small primer brass with federal gold medal match primers and a variety of decent projectiles with modest loads and firing them over a chrono in +2gr icroments until I was happy with a starter load.

So started with lighter loads to fire form the brass to max capacity and to run in the new barrel.
I shot 5 shot groups from a prone position and off front and rear bags for all the initial testing.
I was pleasantly surprised to see all the breaking in groups all under an inch at 100 yards with the best one being a very respectable 5 shots in a 1/2" with 38gr of 2208 behind 130gr Sierra TMKs with a string of 2720fps, 2727fps, 2720fps, 2719fps and 2726fps. Unfortunately my wooden backboard was quite shot up in many of the spot behind these groups so it didnt make for many clean holes to measure centers etc.. take it for what it is and we will move on as its not until the next trip to the range thing got remotely interesting.



Second best groups went to the 139gr Lapua Scenar with 36gr of 2208 shooting a .660" 5 rnd group at 2570fps AV and 11fps ES with the same 139gr Lapua pills nipping at its heels at a .79" group loaded with 41.5gr of 2209. That 5 shot barrage got an AV of 2733fps with a ES of just 6fps. Here's some pics of the targets from that day before I wrote all over them, for what its worth they are 1" squares and my groups were measured CTC. There was a light wind from right to left but it was fairly consistent. I still have this "paper work" as a reference but from here on is where the wheels of my Creedmoor experience really came of....

Started my creedmoor Journey today

So I was happy with the accuracy but with a shortened barrel in mind the velocities were not quite what Id hoped for. This is where I admit I was green when entering into this rocky relationship. I honestly thought this cal could do much better. I kept falling back to my .308 pet loads pushing 150gr pills to 2850fps with very little effort and my trusty old .30BR pushing 130gr pills to the same speeds on a case half the size. I guess I had been reading a lot of 6.5x47 results from guys with 28" tubes spitting them at mach 3 and didnt really think to hard on the possibility of slightly larger capacity Creedmoor case not doing the same on a shorter barrel.



After getting home, documenting my results and looking at the brass I found quite a few anomalies.
Firstly the load of 2209 at 41.5gr behind the 139gr Lapua scenar was noted at the range as too hot. Although a very nice tight group and 6fps ES it had a slightly tight bolt lift, flat primers, sharp edged firing pin craters and a minor ejector ring mark.

Now here is where I must make mention of my Remingtons normal characteristics and in fact nearly every Remington 700 Ive owned with the exception of my early Remington M700 Police LTR that went through remingtons custom shop.
The firing pin hole is over sized so primer cratering is a normal phenomenon in this rifle. I have polished the sharp edges of it to help a little but it is something I live with as I dont see a benefit in personal safety to do the popular bushing mod to it.
The ejectors are also way over sprung and are prone to denting case mouths and scratching up the side walls of your expensive shiny brass as they withdraw from the chamber with way too much side loading... so it got the snip and the face of the ejector was rounded off and polished as was the sharp edged hole it protrudes from.



Now these characteristics all come with new challenges as it makes it much harder to read pressures of your loads from the cases.
Many years of reloading and knowing the M700 action well I took all of this into consideration while working up my next loads.
This is where I warn you all... if you intend to replicate what I am about to share with you, be sure you have a clue what you are doing or stop now as this can be dangerous. I can say now I am at the other end of it that the Creedmoor case though more than one surprise at me along the way that ive never seen before in other cals and if it wasnt for me spotting early signs along the way it could have got nasty.

Now at this point I could post a lot velocities or photos of cases and primers and go through all my ladder load tests I did with various components but I know you will blow past it and skip to the end anyway so instead I will share the following link... this guy spells it out better than I can and I really dont have the time to go through all of my test records and explain the relevance to this load work up.

https://www.primalrights.com/library...nding-pressure

I know this link has been shared here before but it is important right now to every one of you, seasoned expert or beginner reloader, as like I said this case is full of strange surprises nothing short of possessed!
Read it and read it again, understand every bit of it especially the last part where he is testing the Creedmoor case right to total failure.
If you don't spot these pressure signs through all the other "quirks" of your rifles action you are asking for trouble.

Originally Posted by rambo-6mmrem

Attachment 94062
Started my creedmoor Journey today

Congrats! that looks great

I hope it will be a smoother journey than mine was and you can take something from this thread..

@Wingman, which powder or bullet manufacturer were you referring to for load data? Any or all?

There is a big discrepancy between them as you know. For H4350/AR2209 its now 40gr for Hodgdon, whereas Hornady is 41.5gr for the same powder (for a 140gr bullet). Several of the powder manufacturers seem to have reduced their max loads in the last couple years, whilst heaps of BR and other shooters have significantly increased the loads to past 43gr, especially since the advent of Lapua SR brass.

And of course we have popular YouTube channels testing Lapua brass past 43gr, Johnny, 65 Guys, etc.

I wonder if any of the powder or bullet manufacturers have done load testing with the thicker walled Lapua SR brass.

Right, well I am very keen to see the subsequent chapters, keep ‘em coming.

Following!

@Wingman thanks for taking the time to write up your experience. That link is a very well written intro to pressure and one I am very glad I read. I think everyone who reloads or has a mate reload for them needs to read it. I know I will certainly be having a closer look at my fired brass when I get home as I learned a lot in reading that article.

This stage of the development is were it got hairy and disappointing and I very nearly scrapped the cal all together.
From here on my once fired Lapua small primer brass was tumbled OAL trimmed, deburred, uniformed flash holes neck sized only and I bump the shoulders back just a couple of thou.

I ran numerous ladder tests with both the 130gr TMK and the Lapua 139gr Scenar that were the favoured bullets at initial testing, both of which showed great dimension and weight consistency but pressure signs were very early to raise their ugly heads in both 2208 and 2209 powders. The 2208 was expected due to its faster burning properties and max loads for that in my rifle were around the 38.2gr with the 139gr bullet.
The 2209 on the other hand was just disappointing in both early pressure signs and accuracy. Although slower burning than the 2208 it is a little bulkier which meant anything over 41gr had the projectile up against it and bordering on a compressed load.
Something I found out really early with this case even when I tested some slower powders is the adverse pressure gain as soon as the powder was at full case capacity or slightly compressed.
I also noted some aggressive primer cratering with the Federal match primers *(more than my rifles normal rolled crater cause by the loose firing pin hole) and slow ignition on the compressed loads (mild hangfires) so I tried some of the harder capped and hotter CCI primers. I tried the std CCI 400, the hotter CCI 450 SR magnum and the benchrest CCI BR-4 primers all of which reduced the cratoring back to normal levels and showed a lot less flattening around the edges. I had to give the CCI BR-4 the slightest edge over the others but only because it showed a slightly better velocity std deviation than the others although still not as good as the softer Federal gold medal match primers but the trade off for the risk of a punchered primer or hang fire to me was a no brainer.

This month long escapade took me down the road of looking for lighter bullets as I was starting to think the 140gr realm for this cal was optimistic at best and maybe should be left for .260Rem and larger cals.. I was in the mind set that creedmoor will be more suited to the 120gr range.
Even after testing some 123gr Lapua Scenars I have a stack of, (my Grendel's favourite diet) I was left feeling flat as unlike its 139gr big brother the group size with the lighter 123gr bullets opened up as the velocity increased in my rifle and my expectation of this cals long range ballistics faded. I already have a 6.5 Grendel capable of 1000yds with theses 123gr so why do I need a Creedmoor that does the same thing only a little flatter with all the extra powder inefficiencies and headaches it has brought me?



So rather disappointed with the lighter bullets and both the ADI powders I shelved them and went searching for something that may get me a little more velocity in the 130gr to 140gr pills with a shorter barrel but keep the pressure to a minimum.

After a lot of research I found the Sierra web site mentioning some respectively fast loads for the 130gr TMK and 142gr SMK which my rifle seemed to favour, the powder they were listing was Aliant RL16 and RL17. Both seemed to get good speeds but after researching a little deeper the RL16 had better temperature stability and was a little slower burning so should produce slightly lower pressures than the RL17 in the Creedmoor case.
It was ordered and I eagerly awaited its arrival.



While waiting for its arrival I also found the new match bullet, a 136gr Lapua Scenar L bullet which seemed like just what the doctor ordered, a super high BC comparable to the 139gr but shaped a little different in the boat tail and a sharper ogive angle like a Berger match bullet. Many match shooters will know this design can be a lot harder to tune a load for but can be more accurate than its counterpart once all things are equal.

Left to right: Lapua Scenar 123gr, Lapua Scenar 136gr L, Lapua Scenar 139gr



I tried many other bullets and other components along the way but none of them are worth a mention here, just a lot of trial and error like most load development. Ill try and keep just to the relevant info.

It was here that I had my first real win with this cal. The RL16 had arrived and I had worked up some much better velocities with the 139gr Scenars using ladder tests of 0.1gr increments again stopping at the first signs of pressure. The RL16 seems to be the ticket in this cal and I was reaching speeds of 2950fps with only minor pressure signs starting to show, nothing even comparable to the 2209 pushing the same bullet at 2730fps.
However I was noticing the same issue as the ADI powders where pressure spiked as the case got to full capacity and the projectile contacted the powder when seated.
This is where I started doubting the pressure signs I was seeing and started thinking maybe it was the small primer pocket masking a lot of what was actually happening.
To rule this out I picked up some once fired Federal large rifle primed brass and fire formed them to my chamber, they got the same match case prep treatment as the Lapua brass got as well as annealing.




I then loaded them with a Federal gold medal match large rifle primer, this is a primer I have used for about 15 years in many cals and was very familiar with it characteristics in .308win.
I dropped the same lighter charge of 42gr of the RL16 behind some 139gr pills in both the Lapua brass and the Federals and ran them over the chrono.



The Lapua brass shot an average of 2796fps and the Federal shot an average of 2875fps. Same Load, different brass.... 80ish FPS difference in speed between the two, now Im getting somewhere. real world pressure signs I could read with confidence.



(note: the very slight polished wipe mark close to the primer on the lapua brass was from an earlier firing before I polished of the sharp edges on my bolt face)

As you can see the Lapua case still shows no signs of high pressure, yes it has the rolled edge cratoring but as I have explained this is normal in my rifle and is no better with a super light load. Look closely at the edges of the primer and you can see it has barely flatted at all, it still has very rolled edges and there was no wiping or ejector marks which this rifle is prone to showing at the slightest pressure spike. The case grew within normal specs and there was no brass migration or gain in OAL.
In fact I can run this lapua brass as high as 44gr with the RL16 (2950fps ish) before I start to see faint ejector rings and flatter primers in my rifle.

Now let's look at the Federal brass in contrast. It scared me a little and in hindsight I should have worked up from a lighter load with it to start this test. The primer was flat and the crater had sharper edges too. There was a definite ejector ring and wipe on all the federal brass and the bolt had a noticeable drag on the lift. Unfortunately this picture doesnt show the wipe as bad as it was but it was the only pic I took of this test.
Moving on from the obvious signs I started measuring the dimensions of it.. heres where it got ugly.
The primer pockets were stretched to a point where the primers could be seated by a push by hand on a table top.
The case had grown in length, (I didnt document the actual measurement) This brass had the same treatment as the Lapua brass with a neck size only and a slight shoulder bump of a couple of thou so it was not due to excess head space or or over resizing the shoulder etc..
This was an "all cards on the table" very high pressure load brass migration was obvious and the swelling around the base of the cases cup was visible to the naked eye. The case had been pushed well beyond what its natural spring back allowed and pressures were far too high. Continuing on with this load in this brass would eventually result in case head separation and or primer rupture.

The Federal brass is at the front of this pic, Lapua behind it. Look at the dark section at the base of the federal and you can make out the bulge.




Now this part of the test although a little stupid on my behalf taught me something and changed my mindframe to what I now know and put me on a path to find better brass that can cope with what I feel is the Creedmoor's biggest design flaw.. spiking high pressures right as you reach respectable speeds and accurate velocity nodes.

Now I hear you all ask with baited breath "what brass is available that will trump Lapua's offering of the small rifle primer brass that has got me to the results I have so far???....

Originally Posted by Flyblown

@Wingman, which powder or bullet manufacturer were you referring to for load data? Any or all?

There is a big discrepancy between them as you know. For H4350/AR2209 its now 40gr for Hodgdon, whereas Hornady is 41.5gr for the same powder (for a 140gr bullet). Several of the powder manufacturers seem to have reduced their max loads in the last couple years, whilst heaps of BR and other shooters have significantly increased the loads to past 43gr, especially since the advent of Lapua SR brass.

And of course we have popular YouTube channels testing Lapua brass past 43gr, Johnny, 65 Guys, etc.

I wonder if any of the powder or bullet manufacturers have done load testing with the thicker walled Lapua SR brass.

Right, well I am very keen to see the subsequent chapters, keep ‘em coming.

I dont tend to follow any manufacturers data as you all well know every rifle has its own quirks and some can be pushed, some cant.
I start every adventure like this by lots of online reading and browsing the odd data sheet to find a starting point but I dont take anything as gospel until Ive tried it myself.

From experience most bullet and powder manufacturers are very conservative and most BR shooters exaggerate. There is a happy medium but its for the individual to find the safest path.

Something I will go into shortly is the massive variation in pressures with various bullets of different bearing surfaces and thinner jackets etc.
I noted very interesting spikes in pressure with some lighter bullets compared to relatively low pressures with heavier bullets like the 143gr ELDX with the same charge behind them. I was and unusual creedmoor lesson on more powder behind a lighter projectile didnt always equate to more velocity than less powder behind a heavier one