6.5 Grendel load trouble shoot

So tested my luck with reloading recently, apparently not so good.
Though getting easy MOA or sub but the speed was way low. With 6.5 Grendel I was aiming for above 2500fps and I was getting around 2200fps.

So the details of load is as below:

Howa mini action 22" barrel suppressed
123gr Amax projectiles
Once fired Hornady brass trimmed to 1.519 to 1.522 inch
COAL 2.327 (I suspect this might be the culprit, as this is a fair bit longer than most COAL I've seen on internet)
IMR8208XBR powder.
I've loaded 28.0gr to 28.3gr, and the fps ranged from 2201 to 2254 fps, on average about 13fps increase per 0.1gr powder increase.

The speed is way too low considering I want a hunting set up. With my limited experience I can only suspect my COAL is fair bit longer than standard 2.250 or 2.260, but would that really create a 300fps drop though?

Dilemma1: My current COAL fits nicely into the magazine and is close to the rifling, I've learnt that's apparently good for accuracy. But I'm really close to the 28.5gr max recommended load, so not sure if it's safe to increase powder above 28.5gr to reach 2500fps.
Dilemma2: I'm running hella low on pills so I don't want to just experiment around and waste what's left. Had piss poor luck on that, even lost a box to postage :TT TT: so if anyone can supply some 123eldm or amax I'd be much obliged. Can pay cash or swap 6.5 147eldm or 308 168 eldm.

Sorry about the lengthy post, any advice or pills would be really appreciated, cheers.
Michael

What chrono? I've had no trouble getting "about" 2500 with 123s and 8208 from a 16" for a mate. Dud lot of powder or dud chrono?

Or ya barrel is 6 inches too long

Id suggest try one over the chrono at 28gr at the 2.250", you might find out some useful information. I dont see it gaining an extra 300fps however. If your happy with .1 gr increments, keep going up until you hit pressure signs( sticky bolt lift, flattening of the primers, ejector stamping, bolt face swiping etc) often book max charge weights are pretty reserved, find your rifles pressure and work with that. You might find a great node over book that is safe in your action.

Gordons Reloading Tool reckons you should be getting more velocity than that (2560fps, but really need actual case capacity). It predicts a shorter COAL of 2.25 would give you another 80fps or so, but would be well overpressure. I would be trying a different chrono as a first step.

It could be the powder lot, or age/humidity exposure.

You have the right components for good rounds. About the best you can get for the grendel in that weight range. Surprised you are getting that length into your mag. I have the same set up and can't get that I don't think from memory.
Have you tested your load vs the expected drop at long range. If you are shooting high it might be your chrono

Im using 26gr 8208 in mine with same projectile for 2350 fps. and out to 350 meters its a real killer! I could go a bit hotter, but from memory .5 gr more showed pressure signs, and as said the terminal performance has been exceptional, so Im not going to worry about it.

Is this the same Howa Mini you purchased from me?

Ive just checked my reloading note book. I used 123gr eldms and 8208.

I have notes saying max mag length was 2.310"

I have data on powder testing from 27.9gr to 28.5gr, all the velocities were 2500+ fps.

It also appears from my seating depth tests it shot tighter groups at oals shorter than max mag length.

Best i tested was a oal of 1.661" base to ogive using my comparator. Which shot under .5 inch at 100 yds. It wasnt suppressed when i had it, so the seating depth tuning of it may well have changed after suppressing, but suppressing it wont have reduced velocity, in fact it should have slightly increased it.

Thanks a lot team
I've checked the chrono, a guy on site put his labradar next to my rifle and the reading was consistent. @GWH yes it's the one I bought from you, it's shot factory ammo amazing, I just wanted to reload for it to squeeze out every last bit of its potential. And yeah suppressor is new.
I might grab a mate that's more experienced and see if I got all my measurements right. Double check I didn't make some silly mistake somewhere.

QuickLOAD 123 gr AM, 28 gr 8208, 2.327" COAL
Attachment 187865
QuickLOAD 123 gr AM, 28 gr 8208, 2.250" COAL
Attachment 187866
QL almost agrees with Gordon's. QL and Hodgdon Reloading Centre say you are getting up near max.
QL doesn't always perfectly predict velocity but its never out by 300 fps.
Likewise would get a more accurate prediction if cartridge water capacity is entered. But for the sake of the exercise these predictions are good enough.
What velocities were you getting with factory ammo?

What scales are you using and are they calibrated? Might be a whole lot less powder going in than you think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zimmer

QuickLOAD 123 gr AM, 28 gr 8208, 2.327" COAL
Attachment 187865
QuickLOAD 123 gr AM, 28 gr 8208, 2.250" COAL
Attachment 187866
QL almost agrees with Gordon's. QL and Hodgdon Reloading Centre say you are getting up near max.
QL doesn't always perfectly predict velocity but its never out by 300 fps.
Likewise would get a more accurate prediction if cartridge water capacity is entered. But for the sake of the exercise these predictions are good enough.
What velocities were you getting with factory ammo?

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Thank you very much and this Quickload looks like an incredibly useful tool.

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Originally Posted by feratox

What scales are you using and are they calibrated? Might be a whole lot less powder going in than you think.

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Hornady 1500 G2, I know it is not that flash but could it be out by that much though?
I did rattle the cartridge after loading them and I gotta admit they sounded like they had a lot of space in there.

I had a set and found they drifted quite a bit between start and finish. Got so pissed off with them they leapt off the bench and flew into the opposite wall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onlyhsh

Thank you very much and this Quickload looks like an incredibly useful tool.

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Gordon's tool does the sameand it's free to download.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by feratox

I had a set and found they drifted quite a bit between start and finish. Got so pissed off with them they leapt off the bench and flew into the opposite wall.

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Quite a rewarding feeling that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onlyhsh

Hornady 1500 G2, I know it is not that flash but could it be out by that much though?
I did rattle the cartridge after loading them and I gotta admit they sounded like they had a lot of space in there.

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We load a very similar load but an 123gr. SST and 8208. Our load is 27.7g and its not compressed but very close, anything over 28g and you could defiantly hear faint crunching when seating the bullet. We also seat a bit deeper however at 2250 COAL. Be careful with 8208 it can spike in pressure quickly especially when your close to the lands. There must be something up with you scales if you can shake and rattle the case ????

Never was able to get good results with my 1500 g2, ended up going balls deep on an autotrickler setup and fuck, what a setup. Reloading is not for the money saver. Gordons Reloading tool is bloody good, download it on the computer and will give you more data than youll ever need

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onlyhsh

Hornady 1500 G2, I know it is not that flash but could it be out by that much though?
I did rattle the cartridge after loading them and I gotta admit they sounded like they had a lot of space in there.

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A decent beam scale might be a more reliable option ...

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Originally Posted by Shamus_

A decent beam scale might be a more reliable option ...

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Yep. Over and over I've pointed this out to new hand loaders. Get a mechanical beam scale. The el cheapo digital with strain gauge innards will let you down with zero drift. And something with a digital read out doesn't mean it's accurate.

Although I've progressed to top end digital (I'm at an age when I can afford it) I've still got my old Ohaus beam in the cupboard. I'll never get rid of it.

Thanks a lot for the tips team. Lesson learnt here: go mechanical or go hellla expensive.
While we are on this buzz, I've got the Hornady calliper as well, is that all good though?:XD:

Yep, Hornady calliper is fine.

Could your powder have gone bad? How old is it? How's it been stored? Has it been left open at any point? The electronic scales are shite and drift all the time but mine never drifted more than about 0.2gr. If yours is similarly crap, this doesn't account for the missing 200-300fps. Bad powder could...

I recall loading for a Howa Mini with 123 ELD-M's and at 28gr of 8208 I was seeing the onset of pressure signs with speeds above 2400.

Do you have any other powders on hand that you could try?

I'm a Mitutoyo man myself which comes about from my trade background.

The Hornady will most likely be a Chinaman. I also have a Chinese digital calliper and it works perfectly OK. It's the one I tend to let lay on the bench amongst other stuff.

My first Chinese calliper I sent back. It failed to measure repeatably. One test I gave it was to open the jaws to a random position, note the reading, zero the display, fully close the jaws and you should see the value you noted with a minus sign. My first Chinese callipers would fail this test roughly once every 5 times and would return a value not even close to the zeroed value.

I don't have personal experience with your Hornadys but they should be fine.

One issue I have heard of and I don't know what brand it was but the particular calliper ate batteries.


Back to your digital scale - have you checked them with a check weight. Use a light 22 cal projectile as a test weight and check each time before, during, after use. Keep that projectile aside. Or make a test weight out of something suitable close to your loading weight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pommy

Yep, Hornady calliper is fine.

Could your powder have gone bad? How old is it? How's it been stored? Has it been left open at any point? The electronic scales are shite and drift all the time but mine never drifted more than about 0.2gr. If yours is similarly crap, this doesn't account for the missing 200-300fps. Bad powder could...

I recall loading for a Howa Mini with 123 ELD-M's and at 28gr of 8208 I was seeing the onset of pressure signs with speeds above 2400.

Do you have any other powders on hand that you could try?

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Sadly got no other powder I could try :(
Did suspect things might have gone wrong but the smell was fine though. The smell test was the only test I found on internet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zimmer

I'm a Mitutoyo man myself which comes about from my trade background.

The Hornady will most likely be a Chinaman. I also have a Chinese digital calliper and it works perfectly OK. It's the one I tend to let lay on the bench amongst other stuff.

My first Chinese calliper I sent back. It failed to measure repeatably. One test I gave it was to open the jaws to a random position, note the reading, zero the display, fully close the jaws and you should see the value you noted with a minus sign. My first Chinese callipers would fail this test roughly once every 5 times and would return a value not even close to the zeroed value.

I don't have personal experience with your Hornadys but they should be fine.

One issue I have heard of and I don't know what brand it was but the particular calliper ate batteries.


Back to your digital scale - have you checked them with a check weight. Use a light 22 cal projectile as a test weight and check each time before, during, after use. Keep that projectile aside. Or make a test weight out of something suitable close to your loading weight.

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Great suggestion mate, I was just looking for check weights to buy, but actually having a projectile would be good to use as a nice and cheap check weight. Cheers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zimmer

Back to your digital scale - have you checked them with a check weight. Use a light 22 cal projectile as a test weight and check each time before, during, after use. Keep that projectile aside. Or make a test weight out of something suitable close to your loading weight.

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I do that with a cheap digital scale I got from aliexpress. I have a 6mm bullet that I use as a check weight every few minutes while measuring powder. 108.4gr everytime, no drift :thumbsup:

really like the 100gn bullets in the grendel
the sierra 100gn flat base hollow point with from 32gn-34gn of cfe 223 was a fantastic combo in my howa
very similar to a 243 but in a mini action prefect hunting rifle

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roarless20

I do that with a cheap digital scale I got from aliexpress. I have a 6mm bullet that I use as a check weight every few minutes while measuring powder. 108.4gr everytime, no drift :thumbsup:

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Nice one.

The other check is to note the negative value the scale displays each time you remove the powder pan from it. I sure you probably already do this.
I have written on both my powder pans their weight to remind me each time I'm setting up and zeroing the scale. eg I have an old Lyman pan that weighs 153.08 grains.

I have a el cheapo electronic scale (balance?) I bought off Tardme years ago. I don't use it to measure powder though. Handy for confirming projectile or case weight. It drifts a tad but I know to expect that.

Mystery solved.
I somehow believed I had a solid measure of the max COAL as 2.328 and rolled with totally (blind) confidence.
Got a more experienced mate measured my max COAL to be around 2.291 and I've loaded a few to 2.280.
Now 28.0gr to 28.3gr of 8208 has put me comfortably in the 2500 zone, no pressure signs yet.
I can finally sleep it bit easier knowing where things went weird :P
Thanks a ton for all the help and suggestions. Definitely learned a lot :)