7mm-08 reloads extraction issue - thoughts please

Loading for a friend, caliber I don't shoot myself.

Rifle is a Ruger American, low round count. Brass is once fired factory.
FL sized.

Ist batch was loaded with 139gn Hdy Interlock over 43.0gn 2208..Very accurate tight groups, no issues.

2nd batch is 139gn HDY SST over 43.0gn 2208 so same charge, different projectile, same brass, FL sized.

Shooting the first of these at range today they are just as accurate, no issues chambering. Shot a group of 3 and 3rd case would not extract. No issue with bolt lift, just could not pull it back. Tried again after about 3 min and it extracted easily. I then shot my rifle, we went up and checked/patched the target, came back to 100m mound and went again..same thing happened, 2 cases extracted fine, 3rd jammed tight, came free after a few minutes. Left rifle same amount of time, about 20min, shot 3 factory rounds he had, no issue.

So what is going on?

43.5gn is.max load. I'm thinking of dropping to 43.2 or 43.0 but there are no other pressure signs. No heavy bolt lift, primers are normal, no extractor mark on head..

Thoughts please?

seems weird its the third round both times and lets go later..so heat is part of equasion...POSSIBLY the necks are slightly long?? give chamber a good clean and try again perhaps???have you any interlocts to reload and retry..that rules out any other issue and puts issue cleanly on the SST... maybe they are harder jacket so have bumped pressure up.stranger things have happened.....did you set your overall length by using the earlier interloct to set up seating die or not??? could be skinnier front end olglive so if kept all the same the base of projectile may well be deeper into case giving higher pressure...

I found decent accuracy at 42.2-42.5gr 2208 with the 139gr sst.
Isn't abit of crap under the ejector claw which is preventing extraction. Had this happen with a tikka years ago

Unlikely to be a pressure issue if bolt lift is fine.
Strip and clean bolt check condition and function of extractor.

Interlock and sst are the same bullet but one with a plastic tip.

If it happens again, try pushing it out with a cleaning rod, just to see how much resistance there is.

Polish the chamber...

Where did you get your data from? Adi site says 42.2gr as max load and hornady says 41.5gr max load

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Originally Posted by Trav-6mmrem

Where did you get your data from? Adi site says 42.2gr as max load and hornady says 41.5gr max load

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Scratch that, I was looking at 140gr load data not 139gr

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

seems weird its the third round both times and lets go later..so heat is part of equasion...POSSIBLY the necks are slightly long?? give chamber a good clean and try again perhaps???have you any interlocts to reload and retry..that rules out any other issue and puts issue cleanly on the SST... maybe they are harder jacket so have bumped pressure up.stranger things have happened.....did you set your overall length by using the earlier interloct to set up seating die or not??? could be skinnier front end olglive so if kept all the same the base of projectile may well be deeper into case giving higher pressure...

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Thanks Micky, yeah all brass carefully length gauged after FL resizing. Teaching the guy reloading and he did the majority of these under my watchful eye so I'm confident none were missed or incorrect. Flash holes were uniformed, primer pockets cleaned etc etc, the whole enchilada. I do often use a previous round to set the die seating depth but pretty sure this time was set with caliper to Hornady C.O.L. spec. Its the same as the SP at 2.755 but I will check that. There were no issues with chambering the rounds.

The recurrence of the issue on the 3rd firing makes me suspect a bolt or chamber issue with heat. But its quite bizarre really. Need some more leisurely range time. Also a deep clean of bolt

Anyway some things to think about and delve deeper on

Hmmmm seated to same overall length as soft point MIGHT suggest it's maybe a mm deeper in the case.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Hmmmm seated to same overall length as soft point MIGHT suggest it's maybe a mm deeper in the case.

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Yup, will do some .2gn incremental decreases. But having said that, the current load is below max and the max load is for that C.O.L.

A quick Google of Ruger American extractor issues brings up plenty of results....seems a common issue with the rifle.

Greetings,
The SST is a different projectile to the Interlock, Although jacket thickness may be similar the SST is significantly longer. This will push up pressure a little if the projectiles are loaded to the same LOA as the longer projectile takes up some powder space.
I don't think this is the problem however. The fact that the bolt handle can be lifted easily but no pulled back tells me there is no primary extraction. Lifting the bolt handle should cam the case out of the chamber slightly so that the bolt can be pulled back easily. Clearly this is not happening. Whether this is a fault of the particular rifle or is inherent in the design I don't know.
I used 42.5 grains with the 140 grain Remington CL in a 19 inch barrelled 7mm-08 which produced 2,700 fps.
Regards Grandpamac.
PS. I see, as suspected, that the Ruger American is a three lug design. The shorter bolt lift makes it more difficult to produce primary extraction especially in a rifle that sells to a budget price. Dropping the load slightly should help. It would be interesting to know what the two projectile chronographed with the same load.

@Jhon couple of things, when you say no problem with the bolt lift, was it smooth all the way to the top or was there some resistance toward the end of the lift giving a small click?
And assuming you still have the offending cases , if you chamber them again in their current fired state do they give the same resistance on extraction? if they do color them with black felt tip chamber and see where the binding is, this issue normally shows just in front of the web.

Thks team for the later info and suggestions, will get on to it.

Doesn't sound like an ammunition problem.
If the bolt lifts all the way up, the case should come out freely after this. Lifting the bolt up all the way should engage the primary extraction and should move the cartridge back a mm or two. It should then pull easily back.
Sounds like the rifle is missing primary extraction, or the extractor isn't working properly, take it back if it's new.

This might not have been a problem for factory rounds as they may be a bit less pressure, but with hand loads loaded closer to max the brass is expanding a bit more and sticking to the chamber walls a bit, primary extraction should be sufficient to provide you the mechanical advantage to get the case moving. Pulling the bolt handle back should be just removing an already extracted piece of brass from the chamber to eject.

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Originally Posted by Makros

Doesn't sound like an ammunition problem.
If the bolt lifts all the way up, the case should come out freely after this. Lifting the bolt up all the way should engage the primary extraction and should move the cartridge back a mm or two. It should then pull easily back.
Sounds like the rifle is missing primary extraction, or the extractor isn't working properly, take it back if it's new.

This might not have been a problem for factory rounds as they may be a bit less pressure, but with hand loads loaded closer to max the brass is expanding a bit more and sticking to the chamber walls a bit, primary extraction should be sufficient to provide you the mechanical advantage to get the case moving. Pulling the bolt handle back should be just removing an already extracted piece of brass from the chamber to eject.

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what he said

No, my dollar is on excess headspace, as I've had this issue but with a different make of rifle (Rem M7).
@Jhon , remove firing pin and place a single strip of masking tape over the back (case head, where primer is). If the round still chambers, you have the answer.

Solution is either use the elongated (sticky) cases that have come out of the rifle, but suffer shorter case life, set the barrel back or return to point of purchase with headspace gagues as proof.

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Originally Posted by caberslash

No, my dollar is on excess headspace, as I've had this issue but with a different make of rifle (Rem M7).
@Jhon , remove firing pin and place a single strip of masking tape over the back (case head, where primer is). If the round still chambers, you have the answer.

Solution is either use the elongated (sticky) cases that have come out of the rifle, but suffer shorter case life, set the barrel back or return to point of purchase with headspace gagues as proof.

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Ok, excuse my ignorance but why remove the firing pin? Won't it be retracted into bolt on cocking as brass is chambered? Educate me...

Greetings,
I am pretty sure the problem in not head space. The quoted loads are pretty stiff so the cases will be expanded to snugly fit the chamber. Very light loads can produce extraction issues if the cases are under size to start with or the chamber has excessive headspace. The pressure is not high enough to fully expand the brass. This is not the case here. Reducing the load to 42 grains for the SST projectiles may help as this will slightly reduce the case expansion.
GPM.

Thanks GPM, reducing the load is first cab off the rank

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings,
I am pretty sure the problem in not head space. The quoted loads are pretty stiff so the cases will be expanded to snugly fit the chamber. Very light loads can produce extraction issues if the cases are under size to start with or the chamber has excessive headspace. The pressure is not high enough to fully expand the brass. This is not the case here. Reducing the load to 42 grains for the SST projectiles may help as this will slightly reduce the case expansion.
GPM.

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Yes I cant see this being caused by head space either. It is often an issue with the die/chamber relationship. The chamber being on the tight end of the spec and the die on the larger. I talked this through with Harvey Westland some decades ago. Reducing the load should have a positive effect but depending on the tollerances the problem could raise its head again after a few more reloads on the brass depending on the pressure. In Harveys case it was with one of his Bench rest rifles, he checked his dies with pin gauges and tried 4-5 different sets till he found one that would size his cases enough to function reliably at the loads he wanted to run. I sent him a rifle of mine that was also having this issue and he reamed out the chamber wall by a couple of thou which fixed the problem . Iv also used a small base die to good effect in these situations.

Small base dies if you can get them, but the other issue might be a good annealing of the brass. As stupid as it sounds, that might be a cause of this. I had it in an old zkw465 .22 Hornet - hardly something you can get hot loads in! Factory ammo, fine, once fired first reload fine as well. Second and subsequent firings, every second mag at least one would stick and need to be popped out with a cleaning rod. Annealing helped for another couple of reloads.

Part of the issue with it I suspect is the modern dies are a slightly different profile to the early Euro spec chamber and don't quite resize enough. The was no issue with the chamber or action on that rifle, so there may not be on this one either. I would suggest the third firing thing is a coincidental thing and not witchcraft.

A few thoughts.

Does he use WD40 or any other CRC spray can lubricant? Some of this stuff forms a sticky film in the rifle. It can gall up firing pin.

I would give the chamber a good clean & wipe with 3 patches of tissue paper & alcohol.

The giveaway is the case coming free after waiting a few minutes. That to me is soft case expanding with hot load, then when it cools down it releases enough to extract. Ive had it before.

You can try different brass. I used to get that with a .270 when I used Fiochi brass and the time honoured 60 grains of H4831 with 130g SP. Changed brass brands and all fine. Same velocity and accuracy.

I have a 308 with similar issue. I backed the load off till it was stupid slow thinking it was too hot but still had the same problem. In the end it was a headspace issue. My chamber is short. Possibly shorter than SAMMI spec. The problem was solved with FL sizing everything hard. Does factory ammo extract ok? It's a fairly full load at 43g.

Just a thought.

Did you measure all the key data points of the fired cases and compare them? Did anything stand out? How much did the problem case stretch in length and at the base web?

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Originally Posted by Nakihunter

Just a thought.

Did you measure all the key data points of the fired cases and compare them? Did anything stand out? How much did the problem case stretch in length and at the base web?

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Its been on hold until we can get together after.mate had a family bereavement. Elderly person passed so sad but not unexpected. Anyway we are planning on remaking some loads this week. Test them next week. Will measure everything lol

UPDATE.

So sometimes the simplest things are a great place to start. We remade the last x16 rounds. Pulled the projs, dumped and collected the powder, FL sized the cases just to be totally sure, re-seated the primers, re-loaded the powder charge reduced by 0.2gn and re-seated the projectiles to same depth. Then we went out yesterday and collected goat tails. With goats like maggots on a carcass, mate could take a prone position and empty his 3 round mag with consecutive strings. No extraction issues experienced.

So on reflection, as suggested above, the difference in seated depth of the 139gn SST projectile vs the 139gn SP Flat Base may well have been the issue with just tipping the pressure to a level that in this rifle caused the action to somehow lock on the 3rd shot in string until cooled a bit. Which does suggest a mechanical issue either with the action/bolt design or a flaw of some sort in this rifle.

In the end, we found a reliable and accurate load doing the job no issues. And man can those SSTs rip a body up?