I doubt it must be at 65 ish on the new barrel broken in as per smiths recommendations stopped scrubbing for copper at 50 still virgin brass and a pretty sloppy load until I get to 100 accuracy’s good for the intended use
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I doubt it must be at 65 ish on the new barrel broken in as per smiths recommendations stopped scrubbing for copper at 50 still virgin brass and a pretty sloppy load until I get to 100 accuracy’s good for the intended use
I’m using 42gr of 2208 white river primer and 140gr vld through 16 inch AB3 with stealth suppressor. Good grouping at 100 yd and 2645 fps. Not too much room left in the case but no crunching & rounds sit nicely in the mag.
The primer is worth an extra 15ish FPS over the federal 210 I was using.
Yip the white river seems to sit between 210 and 215 most my loads picked up 10-30fps when I swappedQuote:
Originally Posted by Steven708
FWIW - I'm running 40.2gn 2208 behind 162 ELDM, at 2.800 coal, RWS primer, Win brass. Avg velocity is 2520 in a 20inch barrel which is in line with book max. Seems a useful velocity for that projectile, and sufficiently accurate for hunting out to 500 or so.
Yip using the same load through 16 inch howa.Sacks deerQuote:
Originally Posted by Steven708
Greetings,
Early on a lot of people went to AR2208 and IMR4064 in the 7mm-08 due to the difficulty of getting top loads of 48 to 50 grains of AR2209 in the case. The Hodgdon data for the 139 grain Hornady Interlock is some of the old data. From my notes 42.5 grains of AR2208 (a grain under max) gave 2,710 fps from a 19 inch barrel. 43.5 grains should produce 2,750 fps or a little more. Data for AR2209 is more of a problem due to the change in speed around 2002. The current stuff in the plastic containers will likely take around 1.5 grains less of powder for the same speed based on my test firing in my 6.5. Adding a bit back for the Hodgdons load being below book pressure leads me to a book max load of around 49 grains of new AR2209 for around 2,800 fps in your 19 inch barrel. You will have the data to compare with this. This data is for the 139 grain Hornady interlock only.
Regards Grandpamac.
Staball 6.5 might be worth a look. I’m half a grain under book max and 4 inches shorter than the test barrel and roughly around what the books says velocity should be with a 120grain BT. Accuracy is also excellent.
Some reloaders mistakenly think that compressing powder is somehow a bad thing. I have loaded 51.5 grains with a 140 ballistic tip boat tail, and it compresses fine and stays where it should be. You can load a touch more with a 139 grain interlock.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandpamac
So far 2209 gives faster velocities than 2208/Varget, I dont know why no one else is using 2209 in this cartridge.
I have both old and new 2209. Wtih other cartridges I load with the older powder (.30/06, 9.3 Mauser, 7x57, .243 etc) I am getting consistantly 100-150 fps less in any load than I did with the new powder, and the Hodgdon and ADI data corresponds with the faster powder. I have to bump all my loads up by 1-2 grains to match the modern 2209 powder, so I think that it is quite the opposite.
This rifle is a specific example of this - in this 7mm08 with a 19 inch barrel, with 50 grains of new 2209 and a 139 grain interlock, I am getting 2730 fps. (Book max is 50 grains with a 24 inch barrel for 2900fps, so taking short barrel into account, this is about right.) To match that result with the older powder I have to load 51 grains. So it is consistant with my other loads for other rifles with this powder and the current ADI/Hodgdon data.
(I have a perfect correspondance with the "new" powder matching the ADI data with the results I get in the 9.3x62 I remember in particular. To the point that I use that knowledge - to make cartridges just for sighting in scopes etc I load the same max load from the book, which the velocity I get matches very closely with the data, but swap to the old powder so it make it a bit lighter load which is easiaer on my shoulder because its 200 fps slower...)
I use 2209 in a couple of my 7-08 loads aswell. 120gr NBT and 139gr interlock. The 120nbt load is very compressed.
Still alot of misconception out there about powders & how they work, the “best powder for a short barrel” yarn comes up all the time. Im yet to find a scenario where a the powder that generates the best velocity for a given pressure in a long barrel isnt also the same one that gives the best velocity in the short barrel.
If maximum velocity is the goal the way i approach it is try find the slowest burning powder that you can fit enough of in the case, to the point where ideally you reach your maximum safe pressure just as the load is becoming compressed. Faster burning powders generally take up less volume in the case, slower burning magnum powders take up more. If the powder you use is too slow/bulky for your chosen cartridge/projectile combination, you wont get enough in the case to achieve maximum pressure & therefore velocity. If you choose a powder that has too fast of a burn rate, you will reach maximum pressure whilst still having room in the case for more powder, and you may not achieve the desired velocity(inside safe pressure limits) due to the pressure ramping up to peak fast and then falling off fast so the duration of “push” time on the projectile is shorter. If your able to create a combination where you have the slowest burning powder you can fit enough of in, you can end up in the scenario of having a full case, the same peak pressure as the faster powder burn, but a longer duration of “push” and therefore the best velocity achievable with said cartridge
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I've got some 120bts if you need some.
I thought they were a great pill. We only ran them at 2600fps as a youth load but they would easily drop big reds at 300 yards.
162eldm would be my pick if you want a long range projectile
Greetings again,Quote:
Originally Posted by John Duxbury
Looking at my shelves I have a few 130 grain Speer plus 139 grain interlock and SST, 145 grain Speer and 150 grain Remington projectiles. There is also AR2206H, AR2208 and 3 lots of AR2209. In my archives there is load data from 1980 from Bob Hagel and Ken Waters plus others over the years. I feel some test loads are coming.
Neil.
Iv had a play over the past couple days with 150eldx Iv found unless the the lrab is a stiff load it won’t shoot (I’ll revisit when it’s not my only going rifle) easy enough sub moa accuracy with eldx worst was just over an inch best was .610 I’d normally play further but I can hardly see the target behind the awfully thick reticle on the vx3hd and I’m no comp shooter so thought bugger it il load the .6 load and have a crack at my 4” 400yard plate I loaded 4 shot a peacock at 266 hit it but hit it low using hornady app first shot on gong was a clean miss no idea where it went gongs to small and was hanging on a fence into long grass used applied ballistics for the next shot which told me a .5 moa difference and went 2 from 2 im satisfied I can go hunting its also 100fps faster than the lrab and not seeing the signs on the brass like I was
Further developments after the OP:
Typical. The gun shoots better with the most expensive bullet....
162 grain ELD-M with 41.5g of 2208 at 2633 fps.
https://i.postimg.cc/5t1YZfGs/20250120-115422.jpgupload pictures online
Don’t try bergers then
You def need to try bergers
Greetings,
Perhaps the search is over? I was reading some load tests from 1980 by Bob Hagel in Handloader. He tested loads both in the Remington 700 varmint special with a 24 inch barrel and a Model 788 with a 18.5 inch barrel. His velocity loss with IMR4350 was 150 fps plus or minus a few fps for most of the projectiles he tested including the139 grain Hornady. The early 140 grain factory load was loaded with the 139 grain Hornady and a non canister grade of WW760. It lost 150 fps too.
Regards Grandpamac.
For what its worth, GRT would suggest your somewhere around 10k psi over saami max pressure to get that velocity with the 19” barrel.
McNotty pointed out “no need for superformance” but the reality is loads doing those sorts of speeds using 2208 are without a doubt overpressure no matter which way you look at it, just because theres “no pressure signs” doesnt mean it isnt there. Theres no free lunch when it comes to gaining velocity, you either do it by raising the peak pressure, or extending the pressure curve without increasing the peak, therefore pushing the projectile for a longer duration, switching to a slower magnum powder like superformance being the latter option. It seems alot of people are quite comfortable using some tough brass and pushing things past what the manufacturer deems the safe point. Either that or they just dont realise whats going on and use the “i must just have a fast barrel” excuse
Comparing apples with apples, going to the same 10k psi over saami max with superformance would land you around 2700fps, all else being equal, or ~ 2580fps at saami limits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.5 CRD
Max isn't a brick wall that everybody runs into at the same place. If I had over 70k psi, there would be signs no matter what brand of brass.
I know i have personally been up over 70k and the brass has shown no signs of pressure at all, hence why anyone that has a thorough understanding of internal ballistics will tell you "pressure signs" on brass is a terribly unreliable way of judging pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Duxbury
Where would you suppose you are getting your extra 100fps from then if not extra pressure? You have a given set of metrics as far as barrel length, propellant characteristics and projectile weight. Im not trying to be a dick, genuinely interested
No overpressure isnt a brick wall that you run into...
the other way around... its metal parts hitting your stubborn head at high velocities. And quite frankly, as long as it is only your head I won't loose any sleep over it, despite wishing that everything goes well.
Anybody please: If you run overly hot loads and only rely on the visual appearance of the deformation of a piece of brass with unknown properties: Please do not test these loads at a busy range, only test them at your bros farm where if the gun blows up you only injure yourself and not any innocent bystanders...
Any accident involving multiple people will no doubt eventually lead to tighter regulations for reloaders, and as always will only punish those that actually have a clue of what they are doing...
Attachment 267734
GRT suggests 40gr should be your limit at 2543fps.
I'd just load them to 2500fps and be happy.
If these pressure graphs and things are correct my guess is that a lot of handloads are up over the max pressure for the cartridge. It might even be the majority. Given the absence of blown primers and wrecked brass, let alone catastrophic failures, there must be a quite a safety margin built into components and actions.
But it does beg the question @John Duxbury, does your bro have a farm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by STC
Alright, I'll give you some attention.
Explain to us in as great a detail as you can; what the definition of a maximum load is, for my rifle, for your rifle, and everybody else's rifle, when you know you are at that threshold, what the SAAMI pressures are based on and how accurate the ballistics programs are.
(Also you are assuming I am using this load, and you in particular have done it without checking before being deliberately offensive.)
Yep got the farm. But I am going to find out what range STC shoots at now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Everyone can talk about how their rifles different than the next and every brass/primer/barrel/chamber/excuse till they are blue in the face but at the end of the day regardless of what combination of parts you have, if you have a higher measured velocity than the maximum the load data states for a given barrel length and projectile/powder type (regardless of charge weight), you are over Saami limits. Your rifle isnt special, your barrel isnt "fast". Even if you are at or under a published book max number for your given cartridge, if you are seeing higher velocity than the books states for your barrel length, theres a reason for that gain. It didnt just magically happen. Its happening because theres a higher peak pressure in the chamber than what the manufacturer deemed to be the safe point. It could be for any number of reasons, chamber spec, brass etc, but theres no arguing its there. If your happy running at those higher pressures and believe its safe and dont have any failures, all the power to you but the next guy following in your footsteps led by misinformation might not be so lucky.
For the average reloader that doesnt have access to pressure testing equipment which is the 99% of us, the best tool you can use to judge pressure is a chronograph. What the brass looks like is irrelevant. Alot of the brass available today is tough and wont show any signs of anything wrong untill you are way in the red.
yes. safety margins are usually present in all rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
but they are just that. for safety. Not for inbreeds boasting about what awesome reloaders they are...
Sigh. That's the second time you've written this. People are aware of how to use chronographs. You even know I have one.Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.5 CRD
Quote:
Originally Posted by STC
I'll make it simpler. Please explain to us exactly what a maximum load is. Specifically explain to us the "safety margins that are present in all rifles". Start there. Be useful. Show us your knowledge.
Exactly, you have a chronograph so theres no real excuse, your not flying blind? You can see first hand that when the length of your barrel is taken into consideration, with the projectile and propellant combination you are using, your generating around 100fps more than any published load data max for that powder type & projectile. How do you suppose that extra 100fps is coming about if its not from pressure above and beyond SAAMI limits?Quote:
Originally Posted by John Duxbury
6.5 CRD, I alluded to this on the very first post on this entire thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.5 CRD
Don't you just love being lectured to by young people? I hate everyone under the age of 40.
6.5 CRD has shown great patience in trying to explain it to you. Sadly to no avail. You are either unwilling or unable to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Duxbury
Ill leave it at that and am greatful that I am unlikely to encounter you in any of the shooting ranges I frequent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STC
You really should just apologise.
Its hardly a lecture. Im genuinely interested to understand your thought process because its for the most part the same as most people reloading, often blissfully oblivious to whats really going on. Ive been there and done that, run some extremely hot loads with no idea what i was really getting myself into because the brass looked fine, it was actually @Pommy that enlightened me to the reality of the situation after i put up a post asking for some advise on this very forum, which pushed me to grow a better understanding of internal ballistics. Ill be the first to admit i still have alot to learn, but thats a great thing. Theres always new things to learn, but it seems some are just too hardheaded to do so.
Dear God your still typing. It's exactly a lecture, re-read what you wrote; and an aggressive one too. Your mate STC egging you on, who doesn't know what a max load is anyway, and you blathering on about your tough brass and "manufacturers safe points". It's like listening to school girls on a bus.
Does GRT allow you to input bbl length?
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by chainsaw
