The answer to my 223 ES pissing and moaning?

So my Bergara 223 is shooting okay ish, getting very close to being MOA for 10 shots. However the ES is still all over the place, 70 to 130 is not uncommon with the same load - 73gn ELDMs with 23.5 of H2206H, in Sako cases (I changed from Lapua in desperation) with Rem 7.5 primers (I also changed from Fed 105s).

I've tried a lot of things both load wize and with rifle mechanics.

Tonight I tried an analytical approach . . . . I put all targets I've shot with the rifle in date order and reviewed them. Nothing spectacular jumps out but I'm wondering if this target tells the tale? It's a seating depth test. Shot at 100M

Attachment 251575

There is a lot of data on the target (not enough to be statistically valid! but beggars can't be chosers sorry @gimp ) but I'm looking at the average velocity, from seated about 10 thou off lands to factory length the average velocity changes by 86 fps, dammed close to what often happens with a 10 shot group.

Any thoughts of "is it related to the problem" and potential solutions?

Thanks
Foster

Have you tried grabbing a random sample of five or six different types of factory loads and trying those for results? Just really to see if the different loads has one type that shines out as 'one hole' groups (and try and reproduce that load if the pill will do what you want) or they all do the same thing in which case for whatever reason the rifle is shooting to it's potential and you either accept it or replace it?

The point I'm making is it might not be anything you're doing, and you seem to be generating a lot of data with fine tuning level changes but all of it seems to me to be very similar and nothing really stands out to me as pointing you to go 'that way, there is your answer'. Changing the seating depth might have resulted in some identifiable velocity figure differences, but your targets tell the story to me. Mean point of impact for each group looks virtually identical from my eyeball assessment?

Have you considered something left field like crimping a few reloads and seeing what the results of that is, noting that a lot of subsonic reload users have found that velocity and accuracy can be a little variable with uncrimped reloads? Or another option - returning to safe level start loads for a few and leaving the pills long to jam in the leade so you take any possible variation in bullet release in the case out of the loop?

I see what you are finding there, other people with .223 load up using a fork and a teaspoon from the cutlery draw and get one hole groups whereas for whatever reason you find 1MOA and that's all she's got. I have had similar things happen in the past, I'm told they call it character building.

I've found my results have improve since I started using a sonic cleaner.

So you tried a lot of things load and rifle wise

What about cases
Particularly case neck tension. Inside reaming and outside turning ?

And I like the sonic cleaner idea

I had case neck tension problems with my Bertram 222R brass. Inside reaming was the answer

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I've found my results have improve since I started using a sonic cleaner.

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Ties in with the subsonic people's findings - a lot of their issues stemmed from variance in bullet release. Seems that sometimes the primer was enough to eject the projectile, other times it needed the powder burn as well. It might be a possible solution - Lee crimp die $29 + shipping from Reloaders? Picked one up in .308 when I was in Aucks last for sub ammo.

Have you tried sorting projectiles base to ogive? I've found the batch of 73's I am loading have quite a few thou of variance. Luckily in my case I am getting acceptable SD for my application.

24.5gr 2206h
PMC once fired brass
S&B SRP
About 3 thou neck tension and seated 1.821 CBTO (more or less 2.26" OAL)

Over 20 shots, on different days the aggragated velocities were 14fps SD if I recall.

I got 12fps SD today validating data at 288m, over 12 shots, everyone hitting centered on a 6" plate. Can't be bothered trying to get better than that.

I'm running into the same issues as you with inconsistent velocity (up to 30sd and 110fps ES) in my 6mmCM. All loaded to very tight tolerance with two different powders, 3 primer types and two different bullets, peterson brass that had good velocity trends on first firing (which tells me it is probably something I've done to the brass), amp annealer, checked for firing pin drag, cleaned the barrel to a spotless.
I'll try a different neck tension technique and then new brass next.
Groupings are great at 100m and only abit more vertical from 300m+
It's bloody frustrating ay!

Whats your rifle? Im sure that my Bergara has at least a wee bit of ignition inconsistency contributing to my issues.

Tikka action, trueflite barrel.

Greetings,
To me the load looks a bit light. Granted the Sako cases are heavy and you may be running into compression issues but I would try upping the charge a little. Many rifles shoot best when close to max.
GPM.

Greetings again,
It crossed my mind that you may be concerned with the heavy Sako cases running the pressure up. I looked at the Hodgdon data for the 75 grain JLK VKD projectile and I am guessing that you are running a 22 inch barrel or close to that. This would mean that your velocity lines up pretty well with predicted so you need not worry about pressure. An additional grain of powder would give around an extra 100 fps. These loads are held to lower pressure for the Semi Auto's so there is a bit of a margin when working with strong bolt actions. In my younger days some pretty hot loads were listed for the .223 which I used without problems often with AR2206 (not the H version).
Regards Grandpamac.

Haha 18" so it's not a light load, I changed back to Fed 205s and the 10 shot average of today's group was 2774 fps with the 73s (from 23.5 of 2206H). Full report upcoming after dinner.

Been a long dinner break, hope you haven't made a meal of it.
Na I'm just chucking cheap & cheerful hornady 55 spcbt, BM2 & rem 7.5 primers & they are grouping half inch at worst, no real idea of speeds or es only wacking paper at 100, need to purchase a chrony, then all turn to :wtfsmilie:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flock

Been a long dinner break, hope you haven't made a meal of it.
Na I'm just chucking cheap & cheerful hornady 55 spcbt, BM2 & rem 7.5 primers & they are grouping half inch at worst, no real idea of speeds or es only wacking paper at 100, need to purchase a chrony, then all turn to :wtfsmilie:

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What did I say about people loading with a fork and spoon haha

what have I often said about chronicgraph ruining a perfectly good load....

Greetings,
Another thought. I believe that the Bergara barrel has a one in nine inch twist and I see that Hornady specifies a one in eight inch minimum twist for the 73 grain ELDM. Perhaps testing with a different projectile might be wise.
GPM.

Try some 55gn projectiles to see if it will group better if not sell it.

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Originally Posted by outdoorlad

Try some 55gn projectiles to see if it will group better if not sell it.

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Yep, grab a few different factory loads and try them out. I feel that that projectile might just not suit that rifle, I think that stability wise it's length over weight and that would seem to be a pill that's on the longer end for mass. It might be on the verge of stability - in that it's flying straight through the paper but giving the mini-wobbles on the way?

There seems to be a lot of info missing here, especially in your case prep process. You say you suspect consistant ignition may be an issue, what do you base that on?
How clean is your barrel? You will always get a bit of speed variation as the barrel heats up.
How do you size the brass?
It looks like you have vertical and horizontal dispersion. Velocity changes should only give vertical.
How accurate is your powder charge?
Is the powder measured at one sitting, does it sit in the thrower day to day.
What sort of rest are you shooting from? Are all the screws torqued correctly? Is your scope OK.
The poor grouping and the velocity spread may not be related but may be separate issues.
Everyone is trying to help but I just think there's too many possibilities with the info at hand

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnd

There seems to be a lot of info missing here, especially in your case prep process. You say you suspect consistant ignition may be an issue, what do you base that on?
How clean is your barrel? You will always get a bit of speed variation as the barrel heats up.
How do you size the brass?
It looks like you have vertical and horizontal dispersion. Velocity changes should only give vertical.
How accurate is your powder charge?
Is the powder measured at one sitting, does it sit in the thrower day to day.
What sort of rest are you shooting from? Are all the screws torqued correctly? Is your scope OK.
The poor grouping and the velocity spread may not be related but may be separate issues.
Everyone is trying to help but I just think there's too many possibilities with the info at hand

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Yes agree... Part of the reasoning behind the suggestion of trying some factory loads - isolate out if it's ammo related or platform-related. If all ammo does it, then it's a rifle or shooter related factor. If the rifle shows a distinct preference for a type of factory ammo, then it's either a component issue, or a reloading process issue.

Greetings
No sign of Tentman today. He is either on his way to Geraldine to get some counselling on chronograph withdrawal from MD or he has had good results yesterday and he is waiting for us all ti stick our necks out so he can cut us down like ripe wheat. Time will tell.
GPM.

Sorry, been socializing and shooting, wot a great weekend!

So here is a target I shot Saturday in very difficult conditions with a gusty, swirly wind across the range. I always make an assessment of how I feel (some days I just know I won't hold to 0.5 moa) and environmental conditions . . . . And Sat had at least 0.5 moa variation built in!

Attachment 251687

This has 10 shots of 73gn reloads ( top centre) 6 rounds of Fiocchi factory 55s (top right) and 10 rounds of Sako factory 55s (bottom left). So yes it has been shot quite a bit with factory ammo. Yes it will mostly put 3 rounds of reloads of factory ammo into 12mm - 20mm groups but we all know 3 shot groups don't tell us much about a rifles accuracy, maybe a kind way to describe 3 shot groups is that "they tell us a rifle is ok to hunt with as long as we are not to fussy.

My reloading techniques are sound, I have other rifle/cartridge combinations that reliably shoot 0.75 moa and without being fussy with things like primer seating depth etc.

I have shot to 300M with the 73s, no sign of stability issues . . . and anyway stabilized or not twist rate won't on its own cause an ES spread.

So looking closer at today's target, the ES is down to 50 fps . . . . Almost acceptable for a 223, 25 fps would be better. The changes made from the 100 fps ES results, I have polished the inside of the bolt body, and made up a firing pin bush that fits inside the mainspring. I have also been focusing on primer seating depth, ensuring I feel the primer seat, then compress the anvil. So some progress I think.

Thanks for suggestions, remember all I'm trying to do is get the ES down at this stage, I think the rifle can eventually be tuned into something pretty good, but there are maybe several more steps to go to get there . . . .

Hmmm. I still think your focus on ES isn't addressing the primary issue - you can have single digit ES and shotgun level accuracy. Those groups are fairly equivalent in pattern and size if not point of impact on the target - if it was mine that would be a sign for me.

If you are needing better on target grouping/performance than this, I don't think your answer lies in this rifle even if you succeed in reducing the ES. However, if this is a personal challenge/project thing, please keep posting the results as it will be interesting to see where you get to with it and if the group sizes shrink if you can get a reduction in ES.

Greetings,
So to summarise the rifle shoots quite well in 10 shot groups which are always larger than 3 or 5 shot groups. Velocity indicates book max pressures once barrel length is allowed for and the projectiles are stable to 300 metres at least. If we did not know what the ES and SD were we would be happy. Now I would be the last person to suggest aiming for perfection was not a noble goal but the law of diminishing returns does apply here. Be happy with what you have but it is still noble to strive for better. The choice is ours and ours alone.
Regards Grandpamac

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings,
So to summarise the rifle shoots quite well in 10 shot groups which are always larger than 3 or 5 shot groups. Velocity indicates book max pressures once barrel length is allowed for and the projectiles are stable to 300 metres at least. If we did not know what the ES and SD were we would be happy. Now I would be the last person to suggest aiming for perfection was not a noble goal but the law of diminishing returns does apply here. Be happy with what you have but it is still noble to strive for better. The choice is ours and ours alone.
Regards Grandpamac

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Haha - great post and yes you are 100% right. Really I am happy but I am just seeking to improve and learn. I've decided I'm too old and tubby to be competitive at PRS, I find F and FTR a bit codified and so that sorta leaves me to find other things to do - trolling 3 shot group methodology etc. and getting the most bang for my buck from what I have at hand!

I'll stick my neck out, I don't think the issue is related to ES. Take the bottom right target as an example. The Sako factory load.... 10 shot group (6 recorded velocities that I can see) largish vertical dispersion but only 35 fps ES (I'm not gonna do the SD math).
Leave out the windage variation as you say there was variable wind, perhaps this is the limit of the setup?For a short, handy little rifle, call it good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tentman

Haha - great post and yes you are 100% right. Really I am happy but I am just seeking to improve and learn. I've decided I'm too old and tubby to be competitive at PRS, I find F and FTR a bit codified and so that sorta leaves me to find other things to do - trolling 3 shot group methodology etc. and getting the most bang for my buck from what I have at hand!

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Me too.
GPM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnd

I'll stick my neck out, I don't think the issue is related to ES. Take the bottom right target as an example. The Sako factory load.... 10 shot group (6 recorded velocities that I can see) largish vertical dispersion but only 35 fps ES (I'm not gonna do the SD math).
Leave out the windage variation as you say there was variable wind, perhaps this is the limit of the setup?For a short, handy little rifle, call it good.

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I'm with you, maybe less neck at risk here haha but you get the idea. Plenty good for most if not all .223 work, and it's not a super dooper out there shooter's caliber so. Having said that I've been known to swap bits like barrels, stocks and triggers out when I can't make a rifle go as good as I think it should.

Have you tried seating them deeper in the case? Some projectiles like some jump especially eldm and eldx!

an update on the 6CM velocities i mentioned in my rifle on the first page:

I kept the main load the same but pulled the expander mandrel out of the F/L die, sized with the usual 2 thou bump. Then used a mandrel (actually the mandrel from a .243win Lee collet die) to expand the necks in a second stage.

The accuracy might be slightly better, which was always good but the velocity over approx 20 shots is now SD 8.5 & ES 30. So definite improvement. I'll skim turn the necks and see if that helps more (because i can and i like tinkering).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roarless20

an update on the 6CM velocities i mentioned in my rifle on the first page:

I kept the main load the same but pulled the expander mandrel out of the F/L die, sized with the usual 2 thou bump. Then used a mandrel (actually the mandrel from a .243win Lee collet die) to expand the necks in a second stage.

The accuracy might be slightly better, which was always good but the velocity over approx 20 shots is now SD 8.5 & ES 30. So definite improvement. I'll skim turn the necks and see if that helps more (because i can and i like tinkering).

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Greetings,
Expanding the case necks with a mandrel or even the standard expander button is a trick used quite often. The advantage is that the base of the case is held square with full support from the shell holder bottom rather than being dragged over the expander with only part of the rim held. You just need to decap first. Neck turning is another matter generally not thought to be much help in a factory chamber so don't do too many before testing.
GPM.

If you can get a decent brass like the Lapua and similar, case neck thickness variation is usually so low as to be more of a brain confidence thing than something you would see a benefit from in a factory or standard hunting chamber. A lot of times, people who are using carbide or bushing dies will drop the expander completely and deprime separately then resize in the body bushing die which can thunk the shoulder if needed as well as doing the neck squeeze while the base of the case is held square. The neck is free to float the bushing to where it needs to be so there isn't a chance of the die pushing the neck out of line (although if the case isn't straight to start with it can't fix it...).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings,
So to summarise the rifle shoots quite well in 10 shot groups which are always larger than 3 or 5 shot groups. Velocity indicates book max pressures once barrel length is allowed for and the projectiles are stable to 300 metres at least. If we did not know what the ES and SD were we would be happy. Now I would be the last person to suggest aiming for perfection was not a noble goal but the law of diminishing returns does apply here. Be happy with what you have but it is still noble to strive for better. The choice is ours and ours alone.
Regards Grandpamac

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Agree 100%. If your not careful you wear out the barrel searching for the perfect load. Not to mention the costs involved.

Edit: have you considered annealing?