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Hi all,
Just starting to think about loading subsonic rounds in my 30-30 (Winchester M94, 16 inch barrel, 1:12 twist). My last 3 shots at deer have been fallow at about 20 metres, and likely to be within 50m most of the time.
Anyone got any info on where to start?
Cheers!
Hi @Cigar
Start buying some Trail Boss powder and get some heavy cast lead bullets. The seller @shooternz might give you some further advice.
-- Basically, since you limit velocity, you have to make up for that with bullet mass, so get the heaviest bullet you can, and cast lead is the key since you can make lead-only bullets BOTH heavy and short -- thus not requiring super fast twist barrels.
- Trail boss is a fast powder useful for reduced loads. DON'T try and make a subsonic load with standard rifle powders unless you know what you're doing... and know about how to avoid chamber detonations, etc.
@Clubbie on the forum recently played with subsonic .308 and did a triple youtube video. He does not comment on the logistics of getting the boolit into the case, flaring the case mouth etc. But just google "boolits" for more info on the practicalities. The loads for .308 Win subsonics will be same for 30/30 Win as they take the same bullet.
Keep us posted.
Arnt they pretty much sub from factory?
Trailboss.
The 30/30 is way above subsonic. Not a magnum cartridge, but not a slouch. Just a bit short of a .303 in power.Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
But I think you mean any TB load. You have to limit TB loads for subsonic performance. Expect a full case to push even a heavy bullet supersonic.
Na I was trying to be funny/smartarse at the cartridges performance....lets face it they are not exactly hotrods these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cordite
Sent from my SM-A320Y using Tapatalk
How many of today's hotrods could do this to a tree and still drop the deer on the other side? :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Attachment 101321
He heh, yes, 30/30 is definitely medium, sorry @Cigar. As for LOWER power... loads of hapless hunters out there using .223s which are only 2/3 power of the 30/30, also .30 BLK, or 7.62x39.. [cordite diving for cover].Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
The 30/30 is one of the perfect cast bullet cartridges 170 grain cast bullets can be shot at the same velocity as jacketed.
@shooternz Robert, would your 200 grainers be likely to be stable subsonic with a 1:12 twist, or would I be better to start with the 151's? They will probably be used in 30-30 and 308, big difference in barrel length (16 and 24 inch) but both have same twist.Quote:
Originally Posted by shooternz
Cheers!
Go with the 151HP they work in both the 200 grain could be too long to feed in the 30/30
the only real difference you will recover more 151 than 200 both exit goats most of the time
check Flyblowns test https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....55/index3.html
Thanks :)
If you have unique, blue dot or sr 4759 powders try 10 grains no filler needed does the business with a 170 gr flat nose at 1150 ish in my 94 rifle. Do get the odd one going supersonic but as I use a powder dipper thats probably the cause.
Don't know if you can use any of my method, but you are welcome to patent it and get rich. I have some of my TB in a ketchup squeeze flip top bottle. I pour it into/over my dipper which in turn is held over a shallow bowl to catch spills. That way the dipper gets filled in a reproducible way. The dippers are made from different bottleneck rifle cases, and for my light round lead ball .303 loads a .22mag case. I level the "dipper" by just tilting it 45degrees, to leave a reproducible amount in the case (some level it with the edge of a credit card).Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Henry
The taller the dipper and the narrower the dipper mouth, the more reproducible results I think, due to less influence of how you level the final bit. But dippers that you actually DIP have to be made wide-mouthed.
So when you see me at the range picking up odd shells and pocketing them, it's not because I'm a collector but for my powder measures. I do have a cheap electronic scale for a rough idea, but accuracy is more dependent on consistent method of filling the dipper.
I will eventually go and get myself a wee powder dispenser. Some dispensers are a bit flaky handling Trail Boss I've heard, TB certainly sticks to anything static or the least oily/moist.
I take this is a suppressed .30/30?
You can play with AP70, which is Universal, and about the same loads as Unique.
9 grains will get you 1400 fps or so with a 150 grain bullet. 8 grains would probably go subsonic.
at a guess having used them (151s) in both 7.62x39mm and .308 I would say using a std primer you will need somewhere between 6-8grns of trailboss in the 30/30.
I bought some Trailboss yesterday and some of shooternz's cast bullets arrived this morning so I'm about ready. I have an expanding die on the way but no doubt there are other DIY ways to flare the case mouth if I get impatient :D
From my limited research (please correct me if I'm wrong), other than flaring the case mouth the reloading procedure is the same as normal? :cave:
But load development is best done backwards, as in start with a full case (but not compressed) and work downwards in charge weight = less risk of a squib load?
I'm having major surgery next week, with 10 days in hospital and 4 or so weeks recovery with no driving, so it will probably be a while before I get to test some loads, but I will post the results when I do.
look forward to seeing your results . . . R
Cigar...Ive loaded them in 7.62x39mm .308 and .30/30 didnt need to flare the case at all,the copper base has enough of a tapered edge they slide in easy enough....Im picking you will end up somewhere around 5.5???grns of Trail boss to go subsonic BECAUSE I use 4.6 for the x39 and 6.4 for the .308 hope that helps.you need a std primer not magnum as I found out...its harder to get subsonic with magnum one...they got just too much grunt and powder levels get silly low...went and looked up what Im using this time...
You're supposed to work out case volume with a projectile seated, and start with 70% of that. It's the point you work up from, but also downQuote:
Originally Posted by Cigar
or use same VOLUME of TB as your normal other powder load......
Thanks, it's good to have an idea of roughly what the load will be so I don't go too low, or stop too high because I think I'm going too low. I'm planning to chrony all shots as i go but that doesn't always work out if the range is busy or I forget to take the chronograph or spare batteries...
Trail Boss does not like to be compressed or to have fillers, My load for .308 sub is 8.5 grs I worked up to 12.0 grs and the accuracy went out the widow,
To work out the start load fill the case to the base of the neck 70% of this is your start load work backwards from there, start without
the surpressor just to be safe the bullets should be stabilised but you never know
Sound advice I have seen the supressor off a 223 where the owner had tried one round with a 77 grain projectile in a 9 inch twist barrel good thing dpts are modular.
First steps this afternoon - working out my starting loads with Trailboss powder.
For the 30-30 using unfired Winchester cases, filled to bottom of neck was 10.8 grains, so starting load about 7.6 grains.
For the 308 using once fired neck sized Lapua cases, filled to bottom of neck was 14.8 grains, so starting load about 10.4 grains.
I will hopefully start loading some rounds over the weekend, at this stage I'm thinking half grain increments:
30-30 from 7.5 down to 5.5 or 5.0,
308 from 10.5 down to 8 or 7.5
Loaded up a few this afternoon, it's going to take a lot of rounds to use 9oz of Trailboss!
Made up 30-30s at 7.5, 7, 6.5, 6 and 5.5 grains of Trailboss, plus some at 8.5 and 9.5 (three of each, except only two at 9.5)
For the 308 I did three each at 10, 9.5, 9, 8.5 and 8 grains.
All using shooternz's 151gr cast bullets, and all crimped.
I might not get subsonic at the lowest charge, but it's a start and if I do get subsonic I didn't want a whole lotta rounds with even lower charges.
The higher loads in the 30-30 are because I decided some reduced recoil loads would be fun for my 14 year old nephew and stepson (two different kids, I didn't marry my sister you sick bastards!). So i want to have a subsonic load, and a max load using Trailboss. The 9.5gr load still has space left in the case.
I found 8.5g trail boss and the 151g the perfect combo in my suppressed A7,I dont bother to crimp or flare the cases,they seem to work fine.
I always crimp for the 30-30 as it is a tube mag lever action and in the past I have had projectiles move deeper into the neck when not crimped.
I crimped the 308 rounds this time mainly because I wondered if the lubed bullets might move in the case neck under recoil.
What recoil, The best expander is the Lyman M die it can flare the mouth just right to fit the gas check in.
I looked at the charts and saw that you get less pressure and more velocity with 2208 than TB in the .45/70 seems weird/wrong but double checked and yip its the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by berg243
Thats right TB is to fast to give good velocity it has the same pressure curve as Black powder it was developed to replace Black powder and duplicate it's performance
the bonus is it is great for subsonic loads, any of the fast to medium powders will give higher velocity in the 45/70 from 2207 to 2208 are better for velocities over 1300fps
Recovery from surgery has been going well, I was hopeful of testing some of the Trailboss 151hp loads this coming Sunday but cyclone Oma may be about to stuff that plan up! :pissed off:
I noticed the necks on the loaded rounds were visibly larger where the projectile is seated. Some quick measurements raised some concern - loaded neck diameter was slightly larger than the neck diameter of fired cases - so this afternoon I did a bit more investigation.
Here is a photo of the rounds, numbers 1, 3 and 5 from the left are the Trailboss rounds, 4 and 6 are other reloads, and number 2 is a factory round.
Attachment 105272
Some neck diameter measurements, in mm as that is what my micrometer measures.
Trailboss rounds 8.45mm
Fired case 8.43mm
Factory round 8.33mm
Reloads (2 types) both 8.34mm
So the necks of the Trailboss rounds are quite a bit larger than normal, and slightly larger than the neck on a fired case.
My concern was that the neck would be too tight in the chamber, but I think I'm okay. The difference between loaded and fired is small, and all rounds chamber okay in the rifle with no obvious marks on the necks. The SAAMI dimensions for case necks are 8.4 to 8.45mm, which I think is a minimum size, is this correct?
Looks like you don't need to neck size your cases for those boolits.
If you find the boolits don't stick well in unsized necks, you can still crimp them but it's not necessary, unless you use a tubular magazine, also the boolit may stick in the chamber if you decide to extract an unfired case that has not either been seated in a tight enough neck or is not crimped.
As long as the rounds chamber freely you are ok, cases spring back a few thou after firing if they didn't they would stick in the chamber,
The problem with sizing dies is that they size the necks down too far and the standard expander button is for jacketed bullets
to get the best out of cast bullets a Lyman M die is required it expands the neck a little more and gives a flare to the case mouth
making seating the bullet easier, a side benefit is it doesn't stretch the neck, I use M dies for all my reloading even when using bushing dies.
I load black powder cartridges without sizing the necks at all. If you chamber a fired case, and slip fit the bullet in then you are good. If you can chamber the rounds your good.
The size of your cast bullet is the relevant thing here.
If you intend loading a tube mag get a lee crimp die, as carlsen says i dont neck size my reloads but do crimp the case with the lee works for me!
Well I made it to the range yesterday, but the 30-30 didn't...a case of too many rifles and too little time. Maybe next month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar
I did try the 308 loads, velocity ranged from 1300fps with 10gr of Trailboss to 1135fps with 8gr, so need to go a bit lower to be subsonic. The magnetospeed picked up all the shots without changing any settings. All loads shot 2 inch or better groups at 50m. They were very pleasant to shoot, and the missus commented how much quieter they were (no suppressor). I enjoyed the boomthwack.... pull the trigger, boom, then hear the "thwack" of the bullet hitting the target :thumbsup:
I finally got the 30-30 to the range today! I started with the 7.5gr load, intending to work downwards from there, but the 7.5gr were already subsonic (1086fps).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar
I tried the 8.5gr (1173fps) and 9.5gr (1243fps), and went a bit lower with 7gr (1042fps) and 6.5gr (not chronyed).
