With trail boss being a touch hard to come by has anyone used 2206h or h4895 for a .308 sub load? Hogdon lists a load 190gn sub-x but can’t really find a much else about it. Anyone use it?
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With trail boss being a touch hard to come by has anyone used 2206h or h4895 for a .308 sub load? Hogdon lists a load 190gn sub-x but can’t really find a much else about it. Anyone use it?
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I use 2206,
The 308 cases I use were made in Canada by stealthround not sure if they’re still in business.
The cases are made out of aluminium, they have small internal volume, the flash hole comes up to about halfway up the case, the cavity for powder is .308 in diameter and comes down half way down the case. Came with a little short die to only size the neck
180 grain bullet 14 grain 2206
I dont believe you would do it in normal case..there is trail boss around.lots of fellas bought it thinking subs were going to be awesome on deer,wounded an animal or two and the pottle is now in discrace in back of cabinet.
Or use Red Dot or Blue Dot or the equivalent. Lots of options around, and some like them better than Trail Boss as they burn a heap cleaner.
So what powders would make sense to substitute trailboss for subsonic 308 loads?
AP70 and Universal and Unique all mimic Trailboss loads but use less capacity in the case so some caution is required.
Faster powders burn more completely in partially filled cases giving better accuracy.
I reckon a cleaver fella would spin a few of then up on a lathe without too much bother..... great idea,could see it being really useful with some of the big magnums too.....no need for 3000ftlbs to finish off fallow at 2 meters sort of dealQuote:
Originally Posted by Morepork
Yup, I can see a cnc lathe with bar feeder could make a whole bunch in no time
@svt40 what were your light 2206 loads in 6.5x55?
Blue Dot Powder.
used ADI 2206H, but my 'light loads' were 80gr projectiles at ~3000fps, not quite the same application. ADI say 2206H can be downloaded to 60% as a guide - dont know if that would be subsonic or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by -BW-
Greetings,
Hodgdon listed a load for the .308 with the Hornady 190 grain Sub X projectile and 13.3 grains of H4895/ AR2206H for 1,044 fps. I would not try that with a lighter projectile. I used a load of 26 or 28 grains of AR2206H with the 150 grain projectile in my .30-40 (about the same capacity as the .308) and it smoked the cases full length. 32 grains worked fine in my .308 with 155 grain plated projectiles and 1900 fps but did burn a bit dirty. Shot well though.
GPM.
u obviously know what u doing - just be aware of low volume loads in bigger cases - "Flash Over" can happen or secondary explosive effect - I cant remember which one the blokes with the white coats and thick glasses decided on to eventually blame for a burst gun
Greetings @Sharki and all,Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharki
There was a very good article in Handloader decades back dealing with this which the writer called "Secondary Explosion Effect". At the time opinions varied as to whether it existed or not but the writer managed to reproduce at will. The problem seemed to be with slow powders in large cases of small calibre. From memory he was using something like a 6mm-06 and 4831 powder which may have been military surplus. His take on it was that the powder charge ignition stopped or was delayed sometime after the primer ignites allowing the projectile to be driven into the rifling a little before stopping. A rough throat from the hot shot cartridge could also have been a factor. The bulk of the charge then ignited behind the projectile which had almost become a barrel blockage. No problems were found with heavier charges.
A light load of 40 grains of 4895 was used in the .30-06 behind the standard 150 grain projectile as a light practise load and a 200 yard target load for years and I used 38 grains in the .308 for the same purpose without problems. Hodgdons marketed both 4831 and 4895 as milsurp powder from the late 1940's so they will have been aware of all this so we should not go below their loads for H4895/ AR2206H. We also should not use any loads not listed in pressure tested data offered by the powder and projectile companies.
Regards Grandpamac.
From what I have read 4895 can be safely used at 60% of a listed load. So if 60% will put you subsonic all good. Somewhere on the forum there were links to old reloading manuals on-line. The old Lyman manuals have reduced load data
Greetings Again,
Cold and windy today (old age pensioners are sensitive to this) so I dug out the article mentioned above which appeared in 1987. The cartridge was the .240 Gibbs. This is the .25-06 necked down and the shoulder blown forward. Roger Stowers, who wrote the article, started with what he thought was a start load of 49 grains of IMR4831 behind the 105 grain Speer spitzer. Blown primers appeared straight away. Later he found that elevating the muzzle to settle the powder next to the primer eliminated the problem so to me this was an ignition problem. Over time he included H4831 and IMR7828 with the same results and finally increased the powder charge which cured the problem. He also tried seating the projectiles with much more jump to the rifling which had the same effect.
So to summarise the problem was with slow powders that did not fill the case with cases that had very large capacity for the bore. Roger did not mention what primer he used but most data for the smaller .240 Weatherby use magnum primers. I wonder if these may have helped.
Regards Grandpamac.
Thanks for all the info guys, much appreciated.
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Would like to know where some of this Trail Boss is lying around spare. Haven't been able to source any for quite some time now. It does the job just fine for my uses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
Save yourself some grief and ask Shooternz. Knows sub loads in 308 and with his own rollies if you want to kill them dead[er] Latter a phrase by our own MD from the SI. .
13gr of Red Dot was considered the reduced load for cast lead with gas checks - google that one there's a heap of info out about it. Red Dot is a fast shotgun/pistol powder so reduced loads tend to not be susceptible to position sensitivity and don't require a filler - but at the other end don't like being loaded up as the pressure curve is steep (i.e. straight up). Google search a bit more about the options people have used on it and you might find a load that mirrors your barrel length, twist and projectile weight etc etc.
The benefit of trail boss over red dot is it's bulk i.e a near full case is still likely close to subsonic. The shotgun and pistol powders don't have the bulk so need a little more care but the 13gr of red dot in a .308 case with around 165gr cast pills seems to be a fairly consistent performer. But do your research on it as I said especially if you want to adjust the speed you are achieving...
Do a search for article regarding Red Dot powder. Works ok but more finniky than Trail Boss.
"The Load' is 13Grains of Red Dot" by Ed Harris.
ADI no longer advises that a 60% load of AR2206H is safe.
Hodgdon still list 60% loads for H4895 which i think is AR2206H rebranded.
I have used lots of rounds of .308 win with 60% AR2206H and not had an incident, however they are definitely NOT subsonic.
If I remember correctly around 1800fps
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinesdiver
Since when?
Red Dot 700X 800X and AS30 are all nearly as bulky as Trail Boss and in the same burn range I have tried all of them at 8.0 grains in my .308 with the 151HP cast and they are safeQuote:
Originally Posted by No.3
I did not use any fillers and had no issues with ignition,
Greetings,
I was looking for that load data on the Hodgdons site recently but it seems to have disappeared (or I could not find it). The rule is still there but not the data. The latest issue of Rifle had an article by Art Merrill about using reduced loads of H4895 in a 7x57 rolling block to allow endless neck sizing to extend case life and he published the load data in his article. He found that SAAMI had used a very short headspace dimension for the 7mm which resulted in most dies setting the shoulder back around 0.010" resulting in short case life. My own experience with the 6.5x55 showed the same thing. Art called his article "The 60% Solution" and it can be applied to the .303 as well as I have done.
Regards Grandpamac.
Watching this thread intently - Having said those powders work fine, have you tried jacketed proj with these powders at all? Is leading a thing with using boolits in barrels needing scrubbing before returning to jacketed proj use? Hence my reluctance to use for subsonic use...Quote:
Originally Posted by shooternz
Thanks RW !
Ask your self this question do you get leading in your .22RF?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasty Factory Trigger
The 151HP has a gas check which scrapes the bore clean they can handle 1800f, If there is any leading it will be from the copper fouling tearing up the bullet,
All you need to do for cleaning is swab the barrel out with a good bore Solvent and a few patches just like a .22RF
Always something to learn even at my age... :) Great example mate - consider me learned... :) Your experience and wisdom is much appreciated sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by shooternz
Now to source the powders you mentions earlier for some testing...
Lots of old shotgunners around Hamilton, so also keep your eye out for ICI Nobel 78 Shotgun Powder. I've used it a lot in place of Red Dot, AP70N etc. Lovely bulky powder. It is slightly faster than AS30N. Nobel never published data for Pistol loads with N78 so unlike the others mentioned in the thread, its not known for this usage. I used Red Dot load data to work up my loads in Pistol calibres with the start and max both a tad lower. Like all of them it can peak the pressure very quickly. I treat 13 gn in a 30 cal case (cf the original "The Load" of 13gn Red Dot), as very much a max load.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasty Factory Trigger
Have fun.