Thread: Best/simplest alternative to a ladder chart?

Hi. Im planning a trip to the range for a public night and am thinking of doing a little load development. Ive had you guys say 3 shot group ladder charts are not the best method, but is that the best without a chrono and other gear?

Cheers.

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well you asked...... three shots at each powder level..say half grain apart in bigger than 308 sized case and 1/4 grain if smaller.... set your projectile depth to same as other proven or good load... start at lowest weight and shoot up wards...looking for them pressure signs fellas say dont exist,tight bolt lift,increased noise/recoil, flattened primer.... if get any stop and pull rest of higher charge weights....
then look at your targets...should have three that look good say 40grn 40.5 grn and 41 grn..... bingo load in futre at 40.5grn and be happy camper..DO NOT chronograph load afterwards...be happy you have accurate load and go shoot shit.
by picing the inbetween load of the three youve given yourself a tiny bit of wiggle room for different temperatures or slight case differences etc etc.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

well you asked...... three shots at each powder level..say half grain apart in bigger than 308 sized case and 1/4 grain if smaller.... set your projectile depth to same as other proven or good load... start at lowest weight and shoot up wards...looking for them pressure signs fellas say dont exist,tight bolt lift,increased noise/recoil, flattened primer.... if get any stop and pull rest of higher charge weights....
then look at your targets...should have three that look good say 40grn 40.5 grn and 41 grn..... bingo load in futre at 40.5grn and be happy camper..DO NOT chronograph load afterwards...be happy you have accurate load and go shoot shit.
by picing the inbetween load of the three youve given yourself a tiny bit of wiggle room for different temperatures or slight case differences etc etc.

fuckin ay

It can be a long slow process if you chose 5 powder weights and fire 3 shots of each. At first, you're not really trying to assess the grouping of any one load so you're better to load up one of each powder weight or seating depth and have them only a small step between them. eg if min load listed was 40 gr and the max 45 gr you could do 40gr x3 shots to get the shots close to your aiming point. 41 gr, 42 gr, 42.5 gr, 43 gr, 43.5 gr, 44 gr, 44.3 gr, 43.6 gr, 43.8gr, 45.0 gr. so 13 shots to cover the range. You will need 15 minutes and targets with 12 aiming points at least. Only use this trial to select a standard load of 44gr or less. If you want to use a standard load of say 44.5gr you should test it up to 45.5gr.

I like to have test fired a load 0.5 or 1 grain more than I'm going to use as my standard. The 1 grain margin gives you some safety as you will eventually fire your gun with a drop of water down the barell, a case got hot from being in the sun or a hot chamber, new batch of powder or just a reloading error. Do your testing wearing safety glasses and when others are nearby on the range.

As Mickey Duck says, you will often see shots with several consecutive powder loads fall quite close together and that is the range you want to chose for your first standard load if accuracy is your main concern. To seriously compare the grouping of different loads you need to fire several 5 shot groups of each.

Never less than 5 shot groups prefer 10s for f class 1000m loads i/ we do 25 shots per load .5 gr apart shoot 2 foulers. Then group rest 30 mins then next load. As we get sighters ain't an issue. Hunting , cold barrel 1 shot , who cares if it's 1/2 ,inch low or hi at 200m
Get out , find animal ,get to know their behavior much more important than perfect groups

Google Dan Newberry and OCW (optimum charge weight). This method uses minimal rounds without a chrony and really works if you are mentally disciplined enough not to chase the 3 shot "groups rabbit" that most people ( me included) tend to do.

Originally Posted by Tentman

Google Dan Newberry and OCW (optimum charge weight). This method uses minimal rounds without a chrony and really works if you are mentally disciplined enough not to chase the 3 shot "groups rabbit" that most people ( me included) tend to do.

I just did so. Very interesting read.

Originally Posted by Tentman

Google Dan Newberry and OCW (optimum charge weight). This method uses minimal rounds without a chrony and really works if you are mentally disciplined enough not to chase the 3 shot "groups rabbit" that most people ( me included) tend to do.

Easy way to do this, black target with white cross. You likely won't be able to pick where the bullet landed on each shot unless you get lucky and park it in the white, and more importantly unless you're lucky or got a stupid high mag scope you won't be able to differentiate the holes through the scope even if you start looking. Basically you only shoot to what you can see and can't chase groups even on an unintentional basis.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

DO NOT chronograph load afterwards...be happy you have accurate load and go shoot shit.

I agree with MD apart from the comment re. the chronograph. The range will probably have one you can use, so why not take advantage of it?

Sure, don't get put off an accurate load if it isn't giving you the velocity you'd hoped for, but it is providing you with more information to analyze your results. I assume from the nature of your post that you are relatively new to handloading, so unless you are super-confident in your ability to shoot accurately and read groups, it provides another layer of information. Was that last group a shocker, or did you pull/flinch on one? The speeds may confirm.

Sure, 5 shot groups are better but you'll be pushed for time on a public night to get more than a few charge weights tested if you are shooting that many. And knowing the average velocity of your chosen load is good for determining maximum ethical range, drops etc.

why??? because many a fine load has later been discarded when the numbers say its slow or has too much spread/differences in speed...untill you have the numbers you dont care,its great load..when have numbers=pandoras box is open.

Greetings,
Step one. Buy or borrow a chronograph.
Step two fire one start charge shot and chronograph to validate or otherwise the data you are using.
Decide on the velocity level you are interested in based on the load data corrected for your barrel length and to confirm the likely max charge. This is to detect a hot powder lot or the velocity being higher than the data
Start testing a couple of grains below your confirmed likely max load load (likely book max which you have validated). The best load is likely in this range. Chronograph every load.
Save your components for loads you would be happy with rather than blowing them away on loads you would not.
GPM.
If you would like to share the cartridge and projectile of interest that would help.

Haven’t had time to read this but it use to be no load d on public night so double check that mate

The handloaders range doesnt let you use a chrono on public night. Plus itll be flat out while the roar is on.

I have a chrono but nowhere to use it.

GPM- yeah, i want to conserve components so might start the load dev closer to where i want to finish.

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Greetings @Rn-85,
Thanks for your reply.
A few notes on how I keep myself out of trouble almost all of the time.
Data needs to be the latest that you can find and for the actual projectile (or one very similar) that you intend to use. If you can find three sources then that is great. I mostly use ADI powders and Hornady projectiles so I mostly use the Hodgdons site. Mostly the data agrees pretty well but some of the cartridges I load for, like the 6.5x55 are all over the map. If the data agrees, as it usually does with the .308 and most others, you can be reasonably confident on the velocities and this is what I have found with my .308 rifles.
Military rifles and even factory rifles for military cartridges can also be tricky. I routinely chronograph a test load 2 grains under max for new powder lots and projectiles or a little more for a completely new load. Mostly this comes out as expected but a few years ago I neglected to do this and fired a load of new AR2209 expecting about 2,730 fps but the chrono read 2,850 fps. These days I have a huge amount of chronographed data for the cartridges I load for which generally is consistent with the load data so I don't need to start all that low.
Regards Grandpamac.

Thanks GPM
I want to try dial in a 308 165gr sst load with imr4895. I want to see how that flies for me. Potentially very similar to my 2206h with a slightly different charge.

But still planning out the process at this point.

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