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Do any of you know if using a bipod can change the point of impact compared to using a rest or shooting from the sitting position?
I haven’t tested this yet but have a thought that it might ie sighting in using a soft rest then using the bipod.
I’m using one on my 22.
Not if its not attached to barrel
On forestock - no diff than holding with hand
Was watching youtube on 7mm remag shooting out to 700yards. He reckoned he has 1moa lower off bipod than benchrest. Can't remember the video title as I watched too many.... he also said it's different for each rife.
Easiest way to find out is test it, set it up the way you will be shooting it. With a 22 I doubt it will be a huge difference but at least ammo is cheap to find out!
It depends on the bipod and the rifle I think. I've found rifles with soft/flexible fore-ends can be quite inconsistent with Harris style bipods - probably because the bipod is springy and you tend to lean into it, it loads up the springy bipod and flexible stock inconsistently (especially on uneven or loose ground). In some cases the stock can even flex to the point of touching the barrel.
I've never noticed that issue with a good rigid stock on a non spring-loaded bipod.
Shouldn't need to load pressure onto bipod with a 22 anyway though, its not like there is any recoil to think about.
Yep absolutely, it is minimized on a stiff frame/chassis but still evident. As you load the bipod you can change the tension on the bedding, alter the barrel harmonics and you also change the recoil impulse. The more flexable the stock the more noticeable the change. Even a change in shoulder pressure or hand position can effect POI. High recoiling sythetic stocked rifles are most prone to this IME.
On a low recoiling gun like your 22 it should be minimised but its always worth checking on paper.
I checked this with my 7mm08 in plastic stock and found point of impact was indistinguishable from bipod and sandbag/ front rest with rear bag so I use them interchangeably for sighting in . I prefer the sandbag system as I think grouping is a smidgeon better. They are around 1 moa.
Once I go to unsupported prone and sitting my groups are more like 3 moa. With either position using a rest like backpack or post it's more like 2 moa. So, again, a minor change in mean point of impact wouldn't be detectable. I'm very happy to use bipod to sight in even though in principle the point of impact could differ from in use hunting. I dont use a bipod for hunting, only for practicing.
I zero all my rifles off a bipod and i shoot both with and without a bipod and dont see a change. I used to however back when i started using one, ive learned with my plastic stock rifles like my 270 T3x and my 243 Mossberg, pull the rifle in your shoulder and dont load the bipod, if you do it fucks around due to the flex in the stock.
With my walnut stock 308 and my aluminium chassis 6.5 it doesnt matter how much i load the bipod as long as its consistent.
They have very rigid stocks and the 308 has a good bedding job.
I would try by pulling the rifle in your shoulder and not loading the bipod too much and see what happens.
I shoot at NZDA Rotorua from time to time, happy to give you a few pointers on the range if you in the area.
Other thing is i suppose, even thou i dont believe it as variance is usually a result of an improperly set up rifle.
If you are gonne be shooting off i bipod in the field then zero like that, if you are shooting off a bench in the field then zero like that
I don't know many people that pack in a bench!Quote:
Originally Posted by NewbieZAR
As has been said, rifles MAY shoot differently with a bipod. I usually shoot "semi free recoil" and that works for me and mine. (That is not pulling the gun hard into the shoulder and letting it slide/flip off the front hand/rest) Others find that loading the bipod is more effective, or a firmer hold.
When testing ammo/zeroing I do off a bipod, then verify it with a few rounds from field positions, usually no adjustment necessary.
Each rifle is like a woman. Temperamental and with their own peculiarities. Some have nicer curves than others, some like a firm grip, some don't. Some run hot and you need to let them cool off. But feed em right and learn what they like and you're away...(and make sure there's no screws loose or you're in for frustration)
How many people actually take their rifle, move the pressure points around on the forend and see if the POI changes? I do always.
On some rifles it makes a huge difference. The bipod puts huge stress on the bedding unless they feet are perfectly parrallel and perpendicular to the barrel, and on an even surface. The bi-pod acts like a lever and compounds any bedding issues.
5" change at 100m is not out of the question with a plastic stock.
It also depends on the bipod. I used a versapod for years and it was excellent because you could really load it up. Haris is useless. Then I just biffed the bi-pod all together and started using a backpack and sandbag at the range.
I’ll do a test when I next get a chance, since I use the bipod for longer (85 yards) ranges on hares I’ll use the bipod to zero the rifle then try a few shots using a padded rest.
When using the bipod I use my right hand to control elevation at the butt end of things. (Yes, I’m a lefty!)
I have found holding the forend minimises the point of impact shift when shooting with/without bipods on light hunting rifles. they also tend to group better for me when i hold the forend (if i am shooting well and can keep still)
Plenty of good comment ! Something else not mentioned is the way in which the bipod attaches to the forend. Now some experieced shooters reckon to have a 'loose' connection at the bipod attachment point. Or a swivel connection. What this alludes to is all about NOT loading the firearm with stresses. VERY important for consistent accuracy.
Yeah its one of the things I like about the atlas style Bipod, they have enough play to load the bipod and allow enough travel to minimize for end hop without stressing the forendQuote:
Originally Posted by LRP
I have found with a light rifle when shooting off a bipod, the "free" hands position can also make a change. I tried gripping the fore end just in front of the front action screw when using a bipod, made my rifle shoot far better than with it "clamping" over the scope objective.
You never know until you try different positions etc
I don't believe there is really much to gain from a bipod. I like a fabric backpack stuffed with clothes. It sounds rough, but its a hunting field rest. The bag allows you to shape a channel for the rifle to run in, and you can put it anywhere. Crook of a tree branch, between two rocks or on flat ground. A bi-pod interferes with a rifles harmonics and it links the rifle to the surface it is on. A bi-pod on a rock is not the same thing as a bi-pod on dirt. The backpack is always the same.
This topic is part of why there is a huge difference between a range accurate rifle and a field accurate rifle.
I going to put this to the test soon.
I have changed from a heavy rifle with a solid stock to a light weight rifle with a flimsy plastic stock (same caliber) and have noticed a huge difference in impact shift with a bi-pod to the point where I get double groups if I don't load the bi-pod exactly the same each time.
So I am going to do a few 5 shot groups with bi-pod and rear hold, bi-pod forend hold, sandbag rear hold, sandbag forend hold. And see if I note a difference.
All shots done prone I hate shooting off benches.
I know the one I would choose !!!! And if shooting with a "flimsy plastic" stock, good luck with either method.
"flimsy plastic" stock is a Tikka T3, currently deciding to stabilize and bed it or buy new decent stock/chassis.
But for now will find out which works best for current set up.
The Tikka T3 stock is not bad as it is !! That's one of the reasons the T3's go so well. Bad is the likes of the Weatherby Vanguard plastic stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by winaa
The most famous example of the flimsy stock issue has to be the early Rem 700 tactical, which was significantly affected by the front of the stock touching the barrel. Even with the heavy barrel, the harmonics were affected badly enough to throw bullets at 1moa or more, from what should have been a 1/2 MOA platform.
All I can say is that I seem to have more hits with my 17HMR when using a bipod than not....
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You have a point there, mate. Practical accuracy vs theoretical accuracy. I'd be stoked to get a 3" group offhand...Quote:
Originally Posted by tiroatedson
Its not theoretical accuracy. Its field accuracy vs range accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bol Tackshin
If you think about it, trying to set up perfect laboratory style conditions to test the accuracy of your hunting rifle is foolish.
You might be able to take bedding issues (for example) out of the equation somehow, but when you go back to the field they re-appear, so what was the point? You only learned about your range accuracy and you have no idea what your field accuracy was.
This is why I test my zero and my loads from varied field rests.
Here's another thing to think about. Why shoot groups? You can try this and I think you will find I am right. Shoot some 3 or 5 shot groups. Then repeat the same exercise, but this time shoot one round at 3 or 5 individual points instead of a group.
Add up your group sizes and average them.
Then, measure the distance from the point of aim to the point of impact for your 3-5 1 shot attempts. Work out the average, then double the number (turning them back into groups).
You should find that your rifle shot better shooting a single round at a single target than when it was shooting a group.
Remember that a bipod is just an extension to the forestock on the rifle. If the action is bedded and
the barrel free-floated, then a bipod wont make any difference to the point of impact. It cant, its not affecting any part of the barrel. If the rifle barrel sits on pressure points in the forestock, then thats another story altogether.
As far as groups are concerned, my view is that its great if you can shoot tight groups but the reallity is that you'll probably only get one shot, maybe two before an animal takes off, so at that point how valuable is your five shot group??
Its usually the one shot group that puts the venny on the plate.
"Bedded" is a bit like "how long is a piece of string". If the action is sunk into the stock, its bedded. How well varies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bos
A bipod is a lever almost as long as a tire lever. If you lean on your bi-pod then your putting almost a tire lever worth of extra force onto your action screws and bearing points. Enough to remove a wheel nut if you lean on them like I do. Versapod loves it.
That can make a big difference if the bedding is not right for the rifle.
Re the above posts; I do not put pressure on the bipod, I treat it as a rest with my right hand supporting the bottom of the butt-plate, I don’t put much weight on the pistol grip, just hold it firmly enough for a good trigger release.
Err. no. It's the difference between the gun's accuracy, and the gunner's accuracy. Shooting groups off a bench is fine (though most rifles produced today are MOA out of the box anyway, but grampa's .30 not so much)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tussock
There's no logic behind your difference between "shooting one at many targets" and shooting many at one.
THOUGH, cold bore shots can be a bit off the POA.
One method of sniper training I read about (I'll try and find a reference) involved firing one shot per day (!) over a month or three, at a random time, random distance, whatever the weather. THIS is pretty much your hunt scenario.
This works well in a low recoiling platform but in a snappier recoiling rifle will contribute to hop/make it hard to spot your shots. You need to allow some play for the rifle to move in a straight line during the recoil cycle. Light forward pressure achieves this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnwolf
A mistake ive seen many make (and have made myself) is thinking that loading the bipod means putting a bunch of weight into it, not the case. Its a firm but gentle forward pressure.
Fair call Nick. Its all relative. Load it up if u can, but too much and the rifle becomes 'over-stressed', specially if its subject to excessive stock flex. Hence the easiest rifle to operate consistantly well has a stiff stock, and is therefore less sensitive to differing gun-handling technique. A super stiff stock theoretically becomes 'inert' which is to say it will "load up" far less than a horrible one. Its all relative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick-D
Personally, I prefer shooting off a pack or with a sling, or both together. However, in all cases I grip and supportthe rifle firmly in both hands on forend and pistolgrip. I have watched a number of people shooting testing loads at ranges. Some go thru 20 rounds and get a sad face and ask for help. I give them my pack and tell them to fold up the bipod. Most times they shoot much better without the bipod especially off hard ground or bench. However I have also seen a select few who use bipod with a particular technique and shoot very well, usualky with a low recoiling cal like 223 or with a very heavy rifle like f class 12lbs+.
Seems to me that unless the shooter applies a very consistent method of using a bipod with an average weight hunting rifle that a bipod is both a weight and obstructive handicap risk to getting away a good shot. Most hunters carry a day pikau of sorts, which makes an adequate support if time permits. Proper use of a sling is very effective. (My comment for what its worth:)
I have a shooting bench and a 100m range I use for load development at home and after much frustration trying to find the right rest to put on that bench so you know it is not the human factor I purchased a Caldwell ZeroMax Shooting Rest and it has helped heaps in developing a good ammo as I reload my own for the 5 rifles I use. 3 have wooden stocks and 2 have good solid synthetic stocks so no floppy stock in my collection:thumbsup: and the ZeroMax puts no undue stress on any of the rifles when doing load development so that sorts making good ammo out.
I now practice without the fancy rest so in a hunting situation you can actually hit the side of a barn at 100m for this I have set up a set of targets @ 40m and 60m as well as the 100m target for freehand and snap shooting practice and use the bench without a rest on it to try and cover all the different scenarios you come across when out hunting
An old shooting acquaintance years ago had a 338 Winchester which he loved to bits. If you could see it and had the ability to hit it, it was lights out.
BUT he did go through a couple of wooden stocks when he used the bipod. Cant remember if he got a synthetic in the end but he did say he wouldn't shoot it with a bipod on a wood stock anymore
Not quite the same as what you are referring to but I would imagine if the rifle can put stress on the stock with a bipod (not even enough to wreck it) much like Mauser308 has posted, then it could well bugger up your grouping.