Federal brass primer pockets??

Doing some load development for my mate @Freezer
He brought a bag of 50 brand new federal brass for 270w
We between me and him have fired arround 30 of the 50 so far
The primer pockets on the new brass was a bit looser than the brass I use in my rifles lapua/norma but not bad
For this next round of loading I decided to use once fired brass as its fireformed
Which I loaded up yesterday evening
I was expecting to lose a couple of cases because the 1st round produced high pressures on about 3 or 4 rounds
Out of 30 cases 3 were not reusable the primer pockets were just to loose to be safe
I was kind of expecting that..

However what I wasn’t expecting is even the ones with Absolutely no pressure signs were already Significantly looser than
New most feel like they might only have one or 2 shots left in them
Surely brass life should be better than 3-4 fireings

Has anyone run into this issue is it a Quality control issue with federal brass
Or is it generally pretty good?

Yep federal brass is the only brass that I've used that I've come across loose primer pockets

What powder are you using ?? This problem is discussed regarding RL26 x 270 on youtube under the title of Hunt Simple

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

What powder are you using ?? This problem is discussed regarding RL26 x 270 on youtube under the title of Hunt Simple

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Superformince with 145 eldx

Forgot to say case stretch is huge also once fired brass needed a bunch of trimming to get down to trim length

Yeah, a few years back since I used Federal brass. Primer pockets were particularly poorly formed with some flash holes off centre. Flash holes were obviously PUNCHED. Overall was not impressed and have never used again.
Later runs may have improved in quality??

I use Lapua, Peterson. Minimal case prep required. Long life expectancy.

Check your degree of brass stretch after the second firing. First firing can be misleading as there is a lot going on - fireforming in maybe a chamber at one end of SAAMI.

Greetings All,
Sounds to me that all your loads are too hot. Traditional pressure signs don't show up on cases until pressures are well over max, 70,000 psi or more. Additionally the Federal cases may have less capacity than other makes. This is certainly the case with .308 cases I have. Might pay to weigh some and find out. Further no chronographed results are mentioned. A chronograph, in my slightly humble opinion, is the best and possibly only way for handloaders to keep track of pressure.
Regards Grandpamac.

+1 with off-centre flash holes.

My PPU 308 cases need trimming after first firing as factory ammo, which I assume is not an overpressure load. More likely cases are near max length new and/or rifles chamber is on the large side of specs.

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings All,
Sounds to me that all your loads are too hot. Traditional pressure signs don't show up on cases until pressures are well over max, 70,000 psi or more. Additionally the Federal cases may have less capacity than other makes. This is certainly the case with .308 cases I have. Might pay to weigh some and find out. Further no chronographed results are mentioned. A chronograph, in my slightly humble opinion, is the best and possibly only way for handloaders to keep track of pressure.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Just reread the OP's posting. Primer pockets loose after one firing even if the brass quality is questionable is a sign of a hot load. And agree, no chronograph (sorry mickeyduck) you are flying blind. I also use a blade micrometer to measure web growth but if the pockets are noticeably expanding no micrometer is needed.

They are honking
2850 from 18” barrel 145gn yes I did have a crony

And yes they are warm loads
But the cases look awesome to the eye
Exactly the same as a factory round fired in this rifle

I really don’t think it’s pressure related or if it is it’s because the brass isn’t good enough quality to handle the jandel

I normally use lapuas or norma and ive never seen that with ether of those brands and ive had some bloody hot loads over the years Obviously you back off Considerably from these once you start getting signs of pressure but I have never ever loosened a primer pocket on the 1st fireing even with very high pressure

The signs I mainly look for is ejector burr or swipe
And tight bolt lift if I get ether of those i back off
I don’t trust primers as a Indicator as I have found major inconsistencies of how primers show
Obviously if there’s gas leaking arround the primer that’s a hole Different story
But that generally comes well after ejector swipe and bolt lift which would have already been backed off


None if these loads had any of that apart from the 3 ive already chucked out which showed some light ejector marks

My 223 brass was doing it with 25gr 2206h and 55gr sp haven't got my book with me but I think it's a pretty average load

Yeah my gut feeling is it’s an issue with federal brass
When you look on you tube and web etc its a common issue with federal brass
That and outrageous amounts of case stretch

This stuff has both

The stuff I used was once fired factory stuff 1st reload pockets seemed looser than I'd experienced 2nd reload you could push a lot of the primers in with your fingers some would even fall back out so if primers go in ok they are hunting rounds that dont matter if you loose the case

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rambo-6mmrem

They are honking
2850 from 18” barrel 145gn yes I did have a crony

And yes they are warm loads
But the cases look awesome to the eye
Exactly the same as a factory round fired in this rifle

I really don’t think it’s pressure related or if it is it’s because the brass isn’t good enough quality to handle the jandel

I normally use lapuas or norma and ive never seen that with ether of those brands and ive had some bloody hot loads over the years Obviously you back off Considerably from these once you start getting signs of pressure but I have never ever loosened a primer pocket on the 1st fireing even with very high pressure

The signs I mainly look for is ejector burr or swipe
And tight bolt lift if I get ether of those i back off
I don’t trust primers as a Indicator as I have found major inconsistencies of how primers show
Obviously if there’s gas leaking arround the primer that’s a hole Different story
But that generally comes well after ejector swipe and bolt lift which would have already been backed off


None if these loads had any of that apart from the 3 ive already chucked out which showed some light ejector marks

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Greetings Again,
I think I may have spotted the problem. Your barrel is 6 inches shorter than the test barrels so 25 to 30 fps loss per inch works out to 150 to 180 fps. Add this to your 2,850 feet per second yo are getting and we have 3,000 to 3,030 fps velocity in a 24 inch barrel. I couldn't find any data for 145 grain projectiles but a quick look for 140 grain projectiles showed no velocity above a little over 2,900 fps. The .270 Win (I am assuming it is not a WSM) is loaded pretty hot and you are hotter than that by a fair bit. Perhaps your chronograph is telling you something that you are not hearing.
Rick Jamison tested brass hardness in a recent issue of Handloader. He found that the Federal brass was about middle of the pack for hardness in both cartridges he tested. This does not mean you don't have a dud batch but there is the velocity.
A couple of other things occurred to me regarding the stretching. First are you full length sizing your new brass before the first load. If so please stop. If the case mouths are a little out of round all that is needed is is to run the expander button in and out of the neck to true it up. If the cases go in the chamber they don't need sizing which just increases the slop and stretching. Last do you full length your fired cases with the die hard down on the shell holder. If so you may wish to back the die of enough so there is the slightest resistance to chambering. This reduces case stretching and reduces the chance of head separations.
A friend had really good velocity from his 6.5 - 06 with no pressure signs. That is until he tried to reload his once fired cases. Not one would hold a primer. His velocity was approaching some .264 Rem Mag Loads. His velocity was above 3,000 fps with the 140 grain projectile. Sound familiar?
Regards Grandpamac.

I have Federal brass in 7mm Rem mag and 223 Rem thats been loaded over 15 times with no primer pocket loosening. Sure it could be a crap batch of brass you have but highly unlikely. Pressure is pressure is pressure. You are overloading, to stretch primer pockets you are well over max. Listen to the other posters here. Saying your not running a hot load wont change things. This is a reocurring theme on this forumn. We have all suffered from the velocity race and ended up destroying brass. All reloading books say approach max loads with caution not go to max and she'll be right.

Its a federal thing. When I had my 260 it came with several boxes of federal premium factory ammunition. Once I had used up some of that I began reloading, had to buy new brass because the primer pockets all felt extremely loose even when only once fired with the factory load

I use to reload federal .270 brass, and while I wouldn't say the primer pockets were loose, it was certainly very easy to seat primers into. My loads were almost always about a grain under book max. So could be a federal thing. However, 2850 fps from a 18" sounds pretty quick to me and probably high pressure.

So we may be looking at high(ish) pressure combined with loose(ish) federal primer pockets....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings Again,
I think I may have spotted the problem. Your barrel is 6 inches shorter than the test barrels so 25 to 30 fps loss per inch works out to 150 to 180 fps. Add this to your 2,850 feet per second yo are getting and we have 3,000 to 3,030 fps velocity in a 24 inch barrel. I couldn't find any data for 145 grain projectiles but a quick look for 140 grain projectiles showed no velocity above a little over 2,900 fps. The .270 Win (I am assuming it is not a WSM) is loaded pretty hot and you are hotter than that by a fair bit. Perhaps your chronograph is telling you something that you are not hearing.
Rick Jamison tested brass hardness in a recent issue of Handloader. He found that the Federal brass was about middle of the pack for hardness in both cartridges he tested. This does not mean you don't have a dud batch but there is the velocity.
A couple of other things occurred to me regarding the stretching. First are you full length sizing your new brass before the first load. If so please stop. If the case mouths are a little out of round all that is needed is is to run the expander button in and out of the neck to true it up. If the cases go in the chamber they don't need sizing which just increases the slop and stretching. Last do you full length your fired cases with the die hard down on the shell holder. If so you may wish to back the die of enough so there is the slightest resistance to chambering. This reduces case stretching and reduces the chance of head separations.
A friend had really good velocity from his 6.5 - 06 with no pressure signs. That is until he tried to reload his once fired cases. Not one would hold a primer. His velocity was approaching some .264 Rem Mag Loads. His velocity was above 3,000 fps with the 140 grain projectile. Sound familiar?
Regards Grandpamac.

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Apologies for this armed hijack, I have a question related to the above: When laddering up to see what velocity a new powder ( superformance) will do, should I only use previously fired and neck sized cases or will using new un-fired Norma cases for load development when getting 'up there' to pressure loads be ok - accepting that they will stretch and need a trim ??

just loaded up some 6.5 06 cases on the weekend the loads were doing 3100fps the primer pockets in these cases were fine but not federal brass

Hey grandpamac, awesome advice and certainly respected but Rambo here is not a new reloader and would have reloaded in the many many thousands of rounds before. For 100 + rifles. He’s runs a tight set up.

Only comment I'll make is velocity isn't everything.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Only comment I'll make is velocity isn't everything.

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If that were true we would all be driving Morris Minors

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

If that were true we would all be driving Morris Minors

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Exactly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Apologies for this armed hijack, I have a question related to the above: When laddering up to see what velocity a new powder ( superformance) will do, should I only use previously fired and neck sized cases or will using new un-fired Norma cases for load development when getting 'up there' to pressure loads be ok - accepting that they will stretch and need a trim ??

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Greetings Moa Hunter,
I think the important thing is to have cases that are all the same, not a mixture of new and fired brass. If you are neck sizing then once fired neck sized brass would be preferable when, as you suggest, you are getting to your top loads as these will be closest in capacity to what you are likely to be using in the field. One thing I suggest, and don't see mentioned often, is a robust search through the available manufacturers load data to get an understanding of what should be possible. With respect to Superformance Hodgdon states that the powder does not work with all cartridges but where it does it works very well. They offer load data for a number of cartridges on their web site but by no means all. Something to consider. Perhaps the cartridges they don't offer data for are not well suited for the powder.
Regards Grandpamac.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings Moa Hunter,
I think the important thing is to have cases that are all the same, not a mixture of new and fired brass. If you are neck sizing then once fired neck sized brass would be preferable when, as you suggest, you are getting to your top loads as these will be closest in capacity to what you are likely to be using in the field. One thing I suggest, and don't see mentioned often, is a robust search through the available manufacturers load data to get an understanding of what should be possible. With respect to Superformance Hodgdon states that the powder does not work with all cartridges but where it does it works very well. They offer load data for a number of cartridges on their web site but by no means all. Something to consider. Perhaps the cartridges they don't offer data for are not well suited for the powder.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Is the manufacturers data actual data or modeled ?? I understand what you mean though, a bit of study combined with a chrony should give an idea of what can be expected safely. Re the Superformance, apparently the powder sold to the public is the same burn rate that is used to load 3006 Factory SF loads and hence why it works well with other 06 derived cases.
And with regard to the OP, I am wondering if seating depth or primer choice is affecting chamber pressure and causing or at least contributing to the primer pocket issue ??

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Only comment I'll make is velocity isn't everything.

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Personally I find accuracy a tad more useful in my rifles over max speed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by northdude

Personally I find accuracy a tad more useful in my rifles over max speed

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Im looking for both

Quote:

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Originally Posted by northdude

Personally I find accuracy a tad more useful in my rifles over max speed

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Your only saying that while getting your blood pressure sorted

I wasn't looking for high blood pressure if I hadn't randomly got a check I'd still be none the wiser

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Originally Posted by northdude

I wasn't looking for high blood pressure if I hadn't randomly got a check I'd still be none the wiser

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What I meant was, that getting up to max loads raises heart rate and blood pressure - same as driving a fast car, a womans inner thigh, letters from IRD etc etc and should be avoided if suffering high BP

Bro grab some Norma as we discussed. Its good in the 270

That’s the plan

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Originally Posted by Gibo

Bro grab some Norma as we discussed. Its good in the 270

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@rambo-6mmrem I learnt today that Federal primers are actually a few thou bigger in diameter than other brands, so maybe the primer pockets are made slightly bigger as well

Federal brass is junk. Bin it and get Norma

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

@rambo-6mmrem I learnt today that Federal primers are actually a few thou bigger in diameter than other brands, so maybe the primer pockets are made slightly bigger as well

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Yep
I primed some brand new norma 7mmrm brass yesterday the primers took double the pressure to seat than the brand new federal brass

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Originally Posted by rambo-6mmrem

Yep
I primed some brand new norma 7mmrm brass yesterday the primers took double the pressure to seat than the brand new federal brass

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How many grns of Hodgdon superprofrmance are you putting behind the ELDX.

Sent from my CPH1903 using Tapatalk

In the 7mm magnum you mean? Useing adi ar2225

Got out with norma brass in the 270 yesterday
All issues gone
Even tryed 0.5gn hotter with no issues

Besides slight primer Craters which just seems to be a thing with this rifle dose it with even mildest of loads