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Old boy that passed away left me some 223 rounds that had been fireformed, then bumped 2thou in a Howa. I have a Savage- these rounds would not chamber. Two different rifles, you not comparing apples with apples. My solution although some would say it's risky is --I have a redding body die, it doesn't touch the neck & shell holder is nowhere involved with pressure on the primer, so gently bumped the shoulder on a loaded case. Easy fix for if the shoulder is the problem.
Something I have run into is the case having to much up and down movement in the shell holder. Shell holder touches bottom of die and case movement is enough to stop shoulder being bumped back enough.
LEE lube...throw that tooth paste imitating case stuffing press jamming crap away as far as you can...NOW....RIGHT NOW not tomorrow do it now....
the amount of headaches caused by slighty incorrect use of it is unreal.....(this is the ONLY product made my LEE that I swear at rather than swear by) I know of many stuck cases and eve na ripped out die that could be linked to its use.....
garden variety vasoline is 1000 times easier to use and more reliable as are a multitude of other products
if you look in the thread I bumped you will see a photo of nosler manual discription of patial length resizing... the fact you have said you can turn 1/3 of a turn and then another 1/3 of a turn SUGGESTS you are at least 2/3rds of a turn loose from proper full length sizing contact...eg set your press up till die contacts shell holder then screw in a further turn...... yes this will make your brass as small as it can possibly be...but the buggers will chamber in 99% of cases...
Greetings again,
I am getting the impression the problem you are having is with loaded rounds and wonder if the problem is being created in the seating die. Here is a test for you.
1. Remove the decapping rod and neck expander for your FL die.
2. Wind the FL sizing die down until it touches the shell holder. Back the ram out and wind the die down one full turn further and lock the ring.
3. Full length size with the shell holder making hard contact with the die. You should feel the case shoulder contact the shoulder inside the die and after that the shell holder contacting the die.
4. Chamber the case in your rifle. It should fit.
If not either the die or the chamber is out of spec. If it does chamber then the problem is elsewhere.
Next we look at the seating die.
1. Place a case that is within spec for length in the shell holder with no die in the press and run the ram up the whole way. Put your seating die in the press with the locking ring backed out and carefully turn the die down until you feel the crimping shoulder touch the case.
2. Turn the die back out one full turn and lock the ring.
If the seating die crimp shoulder touches the case mouth this can bulge the case just behind the shoulder and make chambering hard.
You mentioned that your rifle is an M700 and I don't remember Remington ever chambering the 7mm WSM so if this is a replacement barrel the chamber could be quite tight. You mentioned that some rounds will not chamber in your friends rifle which tells me that somewhere in the loading process something is going pear shaped. Keep at it and you will get there.
Regards Grandpamac.
If none of that works try holding the case as high as it will go in the shell holder and slip a feeler guage under it so theres no up and down movement. Remove decapping rod and size.
Always learning, struggling to get accurate seating depths the other day. I tried using my Lee hand press, which did a way better job. Reason the Lee hand press has a physical stop as my main press doesn't and is spongy, solution a piece of plate steel screw into postion so as the make a hard stop, so lever pressure is always repeatable. Helps to get rid of all the linkage travel and is very precise, 1 thou as where before they were ranging by 4 thou.
@chainsaw are you still up here? Ben is only 15 mins from you if do. I remember you were a godsend in finding out the issues with my 284s chamber
Yep, same place. Happy to lend a hand if needed.
My rifle Remington 700 BDL has had a 24" True-Flite barrel fitted, sako extractor and has had some alterations to improve the feeding plus a few other things that wont be playing a part in this issue. i havnt tried my rounds in my friends rifle as he no longer owns a 7mm wsm , it is his once fired brass that he has given me but thats not important right now as non of that brass has been loaded up. its only my own once fired (from MY rifle) brass that has been used to make the rounds that we are dealing with.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandpamac
I will attempt your suggestions this afternoon and report back.
Thanks
Try screw the die down till it touches the shell holder then screw down a little more this sometimes helps
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One question will a sized unprimed brass fit in your chamber.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenTheBuilder
Like Grandpar said screw your die down at least 1 turn past touching the shell holder.
Than try and chamber with no primer.
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@grandpamac i tried the steps as you described and the unprimed case did not fit
what does the fella who put the build together have to say??
I'll ask the question again. Can you corfirm that the case in pic one definitely fits and pic 3 doesn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by BenTheBuilder
If you have a case that fits a few measurements will tell you what the problem ig. eg an oversize web.
i bought the rifle second hand, i didnt do the work, it was carried out buy Hardy rifle engineering in 2016. its not the previous owners problem so i have no intention of bringing it up with him after owning the rifle for 3.5 years
yes you are correct. the round reading 45.86mm fits and the round reading 46.05mm does not.
Skip read to here so probably missed afew details. Of the two cases mentioned in this (above) why is one shorter than the other and why can't you make the longer one the same as the shorter one?Quote:
Originally Posted by BenTheBuilder
Forget about hornady headspace gauges. For a true bumped fit look up "wheeler method "
But that's stuff for further down the track also look up " cam over" on reloading presses.
The trouble you have is that the brass was fire formed to a different sized chamber to yours. You need to get it back to SAAMI specs....then shoot it in your rifle to fire form it to your chamber, only then can you start to "bump" your cases.
hmmmm I seem to recall a certain dog chasing member had a HUGE shitfight involving a rem 700 custom build..and the gunsmith mentioned also sounds familiar....lack of camming ability in 700s of that time being part of issue..... @mikee am I recalling correctly??/Quote:
Originally Posted by BenTheBuilder
OK that's good, you need to do some measurements with your vernier to determine the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenTheBuilder
Is the measurement to the datum on the cases you are attempting to size still longer than your good case. ie has there been any change at all with cranking the die down futher?
yes i do, will have to get back to you with this, the over all length of all the cases are within spec its only appears to be the shoulder measurements thats causing me the greif. ill do some comparisons and take some photos and get back to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmer
i dont think its a rifle issue as am able to chamber my factory ammunition with no issue at all, its far more likely an ammunition issue or my poor techniqueQuote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
so...in laymans terms....your squishing the case back to within spec...BUT the shoulder area SEEMS to be a bit rounded making it slightly over length.... and you cant get rifle bolt to cam over and chamber it..... correct so far???
youve tried the suggested removal of expander bits so the case is being shrunk and left shrunk...but case still appears SLIGHTLY too long...and its not touching chamber anywhere else..checked via vivid colouring in.....
Nope.......... @Micky Duck, you are incorrect my "dog" was not a Hardy built gun. And its issue was reliable extraction or lack of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
Mine was from certain Local "no worries bro" Custom Gun Guy that sold me my brand new customer single shot repeater.
If he is reading this he might like to know that since it was repaired by a proper gunsmith it has fired over another 700 rounds then then re-barreled in same calibre and done another 778 as of this morning all with out one single failure to extract!! Must have been my dodgy reloading after all ...........................................
I would note there was nothing wrong with its accuracy in any way at all which was great it was a crap shoots as to whether or not you could reload reliably.
As far as the original poster goes I still think best course of action is to have an experienced reloader have a look at your setup/proceedures.
I believe Steves Wholesale has Nosler Brass on order for 7WSM but it will be spendy.
now Im going to suggest something.....for purpose of feedback...to weigh up the pros and cons of this course of action BEFORE doing it.
rather than skimming a fly shit off the case holder,why not off base of die???? if your going to set up to bump rather than FLR anyway you arent going to want it touching...we only talking .25 of a mm sort of thing..and it will definately rule in or out that issue...I believe the OP has already purchased a 2nd set of dies..so not like is now dieless.
by creating a SLIGHTLY shorter die..you can make slightly shorter cases..what it seems you need. worst case...you shrink case and fireform /first firing puts it back to same size as all the rest of your cases.
my apologies to Mr Hardy.......your name has been cleared.
Yep, you ned to start using measurements and recording them as you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenTheBuilder
Do you still have factory ammo? Another source of measurement.
You've got to quantify the datum point measurement and if you have managed to shorten that. You said you wound the die down as suggested. Did that make any change at all? How much longer is it than that measurement of the got case in the pic in posting #6?
And did you try the suggested feeler gauges in the shell holder. This will usually gain a bit more sizing if the die has screwed down as far as practicable against the shell holder. The idea is to insert feller gauges between the base of the case and the "floor" of the shell holder, lifting the case up in the shell holder as far as it will go.
We need to establish if it is a too long datum point issue still. If it isn't that we need to look to see if the case is too "fat".
One other question. When you try to close the bolt and don't succeed can you then pull the bolt back without effort or is it semi jammed and needs a hit?
Can you provide links to the wheeler method as there seems to be multiple mentions of this... im assuming you are referring too precision rifle blog ?Quote:
Originally Posted by johnd
also the brass i am working with was fire formed in MY rifle.
yes i have factory ammo i can use as a ref. it is also Winchester so would add some level of transferability to the measurementsQuote:
Originally Posted by zimmer
as for the closing of the bolt. I can pull it back without the need to hit. however it does require a fair amount of force of the hand.
but you got it off your mate...so its not been fireformed in your rifle....its been fired in his....so if the theory is right...and his chamber is looser than yours...the cases you got off him are bigger than yours...and you need to somehow shrink the suckers back small enough to fit in your gun
I think the question reguards to how tight bolt is to reopen is questioning if case is holding against sides of chamber..EG its too fat,not too long...
I haven't read all posts since my last one but I have another question for you.
Do you have any cases that were fired in YOUR rifle / chamber and have not yet been resized ( FL or any other sort of sizing ) ?
If so, could you take one or two of these cases and see if they will chamber normally in your rifle ( even if just slightly tight but as long as you can close the bolt on them ) ?
If they chamber OK, could you then size them through your FL Die, just as you have done so far, and see if they then will NOT chamber giving you the same problem you are having now ?
Then report the result here.
Cheers
I think I will hold off on linking that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenTheBuilder
I might muddy the waters, there is more going on here.... cases fired in your rifle won't fit? And you have sized them as well? Then they must need more than the little bit of sizing you are deploying.
I think you need to get someone around that's familiar with the reloading process.
If you have followed what others have suggested and turned your die downwards a 1/2 turn more .... you should be getting closer to fully sized?
Were these hot loads? What did they extract like? Something is not adding up.
In your first post you say you ran all your once fired brass through the full length sizing die and now it won't fit?
Dumb question, what's the die you are using ...I don't mean what brand... but what's written on the box or the die ? Maybe a photo of the end of the box stating its type etc.
Back at page 1 he loaded up all the brass he fired in his rifle and some wouldn't chamber. He's probably using the pulled ones now so he'll be using his own brass as he statesQuote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
Greetings again @BenTheBuilder,
Although frustrating at the time the difficulties you are having will teach you much.
So to summarise:
1, Factory ammo chambers.
2, Some of your once fired brass from your rifle that you have sized chambers and some does not.
3, The reason seems to be the length to datum being longer on the cases that will not chamber.
So we know that the dies that you have can produce cases that chamber but for some reason do not always.
My suspicion in now on your lube. Micky eloquently stated some reasons to ditch the Lee lube and my experience with it echoes his so if you have not already done so replace it with something better. The 7mm WSM has little body taper and a steep shoulder, both of which require a top lube. I am using the Hornady one shot which some like to bag and the Imperial Sizing Wax seems to be top of the heap but is more expensive. You smooth this on with your fingers to the body and neck, but not the shoulder. The reason in not lubing the shoulder is to prevent lube dents which I think you have experienced. You may have to clean out the interior of your die to stop them. When you are sizing if it gets tight back the case out slightly and then complete the sizing. Take the case out wipe it of and re lube if needed. You should feel the shell holder come to a hard stop when it comes into contact with the die.
To help things along see if you can find an experienced handloader to mentor you through this stage. One thing I suggest that you NOT do is to alter the die or shell holder in any way. They are fine, It is the other ducks that we need to get in a row.
Regards Grandpamac.
Okay another thought occurred to me. You mentioned you bought another set of dies (same brand), did it also come with another shell holder?
If so, and if you have been switching from one holder to the other it is another area where variation can occur (in their depth to the bottom of the die).
If you have two shellholders identify A from B somehow and don't swap them about until you can measure a difference between them .
Homework... look up Redding competition shell holder sets. As GPMac has said don't alter the die or holder by grinding, (if you get it uneven by .002 you have introduced yet another variable)
Ben, find brass that meets the criteria below
1 - Factory round, pull the projectile and dump powder, confirm it fits in your chamber
2- case fired in your chamber, sized and fits back in your chamber
3 - case fired in your chamber, sized but does not fit back in your chamber
4 - case fired in your chamber and has not been resized yet
Then, for all of them, take the following dimensions and record it in a table. Record it in inches also, I.e 2.215”
A - Using the headspace comparator, measure from base to shoulder
B - case neck diameter,
C - case web diameter, measured at the 0.200 datum (if you don’t know what this is, Google it, but basically at a point 0.200 inches up from the base of the case.)
Once you’ve shared those dimensions, we can see where the issue lies.
Just from my small experience loading I have found that the best results are when the die and shell holder match ie same brand, have noticed the headspace on some are different and don't match each other just something small to look at if you haven't already
Just want to say thanks for posts.
Had the exact described issue. After reading posts I did three things. Just a little more lube particularly in the neck, Lowered the die so it was more (tighter) overcamed, paused for a few seconds before releasing the rcbs lever.
All the problems are now gone.
It was driving me MAD.
Thanks
Me too luckily a local to me forum member helped point me in the right direction and also annealed my brass for me to make it easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by glens