Fl sizer not sizing the neck?

I have a set of 6.5x55 dies, I think they are rcbs, and for the life of me I can't work out why the cases I run through them won't hold the projectiles. There is almost no neck tension, to the point where I can gently push the loaded bullet into the bench and the projectiles just slides deeper into the case. I've never run into this before, and I've tried setting up the die again but it doesn't work. It does the same thing with virgin Norma brass, as well as once fired S and B ammo. I've loaded for dozens of rifle calibres over the years and this is the first time I've had this. Any thoughts?

Pull the die apart and see if it needs a bushing in it


Or look for a crack in the die around the neck area

Or, has the brass been neck turned

Or, is the expander ball the wrong size

How many times has the brass been worked

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Originally Posted by blip

How many times has the brass been worked

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One lot of brand new brass, and one packet of once-fired

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Originally Posted by 7mmsaum

Pull the die apart and see if it needs a bushing in it


Or look for a crack in the die around the neck area

Or, has the brass been neck turned

Or, is the expander ball the wrong size

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The brass hasn't been neck turned, but I'll take the die apart again tonight

Greetings,
The problem is likely that the dies are old and designed for the thicker continental brass. More recently the US and some continental brass is thinner and does not size the necks enough. Unfortunately new dies are the fix. Unfortunately there is another problem. Both my sets of 6.5 dies set the shoulder back too much and you will need to carefully set the die to avoid this. I use a +.010" shell holder for my T3 and need to set the die back further still for other rifles. This is due to US arrogance about things not invented there. I was reading the other day about the same problem with 7x57mm.
Regards Grandpamac.

Went out to the shed to check,
Both the Lyman FL and RCBS Neck dies resize Norma or Lapua case necks just enough to hold the projectile but nowhere enough for Winchester cases. These dies were purchased in the early 1990's. The recently purchased Redding FL dies size everything. I anm almost certain that this is your problem.
GPM,

I guess thats the beauty of using redding dies, you can buy the correct bushing to suit.

Greetings @tommygun,
A possible solution, short of a whole new die set, is to buy a Lee collet neck die. You could use your current FL sizing die for the bodies and size the necks as a separate operation. You would need to anneal the necks of the cases from time to time as hard brass results in oversize necks and loose projectiles.
GPM.

How did you go with this @Tommy.gun

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @tommygun,
A possible solution, short of a whole new die set, is to buy a Lee collet neck die. You could use your current FL sizing die for the bodies and size the necks as a separate operation. You would need to anneal the necks of the cases from time to time as hard brass results in oversize necks and loose projectiles.
GPM.

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Second try.
How did you go @tommygun?

Or u can only neck size with a collet die

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Originally Posted by Sharki

Or u can only neck size with a collet die

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We'd still like to know what the OP found. Learning for all.......

indeed would like to know too

one suggestion not made, that I can see anyway, try removing the expander ball and see if they are still too loose or are now too tight..its POSSIBLE the ball is too large,2 minutes with some fine wetn dry paper and cordless drill will fix that and make whole operation smoother at same time. amazing how much difference just sanding corners off that ball does. slips in and out like a well greased .....(male appendage) up a slack.......(female opening)
hows that for being PC on a Monday morning??? and no Im not talking powder coated either,that would just be kinky.

Measured the three expander balls on my various 6.5x55 dies and they are all 6.65mm or close to it or about 0.05mm under projectile dia.

i have a couple of sets of dies you can have a play with and see if theres a problem with your dies i travel to dunedin regularly i have them in my swap meet pile so no rush to geyt them back one set of lee one set of hornady mabe a neck sizing die there to not sure though

Attachment 240128Attachment 240129

This has been on the back burner for a while, but today I just ran into the same issue with my 303 dies. I am possibly going insane. I've never had this before with other Lee dies that I've used a lot more. Both offending dies are Lee RGB ones, I've cleaned and lubed them both, but no improvement. There is little resistance in seating bullets, to the point where the arm almost falls due to gravity alone on the second half of the stroke. It must be just sizing the very end of the neck, as it feels finger tight, but it I seat to the cannelure, the bullet spins and wiggles. I'm wondering if it's maybe even the brass. I just noticed it's all European, Norma and S&B for both 6.5x55 and 303, could a different spec for thickness be the cause? Again, some of this stuff is new, once fired brass, so I doubt it's all getting work hardened and needs anealed already.

Merry Christmas etc.

Do you have good measuring gear? Measure the diameter of the expander ball, the neck thickness of the brass (times 2 for both sides of the neck) and add together. Compare to the inside measurement of the neck sizing area of the die and also the diameter of the bullet you are wanting to use and this will give you an idea of whats going on. The other one is size one case and mark it with tape and place to one side. Then take the expander ball/decapping pin out of the die and run another case through the die and again mark with tape (I use masking tape and write on them).

Try and push a bullet into both cases, if the bullet won't fit into the case that went through without the expander ball but drops into the standard resized case then you are getting to much expansion of the case neck off the expander ball when you are removing the sized case out of the die. If the pill drops into both cases the same, it would be most likely that you aren't getting enough resizing on the case necks i.e. the neck thickness is insufficient for the specification of that die. If you are finding that the case without the expander ball going through it grips the bullet but the expanded case doesn't - there are two situations that might be at play here one being the expander ball is too big and expanding the case too much, the second being that the brass is springing up too much for the size of the expander ball.

Ive had this happen with some once fired greek 303. No matter what you did it wouldnt size the neck down. I annealed it and I was back in buisness

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Originally Posted by blip

Ive had this happen with some once fired greek 303. No matter what you did it wouldnt size the neck down. I annealed it and I was back in buisness

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I havnt had the issue. But often hear about this and other sizing issues. Annealing is usually the fix.

Update on this issue. I annealer the 303 cases, and cleaned the die, and it still won't size with enough neck tension to be more than finger tight when I seat a bullet.

Other than the bullets somehow being 308cal and labeled incorrectly at the factory, I can't make sense of how this is happening. Maybe the mandrel is out of spec, I will try to measure it today.

OK, the expander ball on the 303 FL die is 0.3095, the inside of the case mouth of the offending case is 0.3105 and the outside of the mouth is about 0.336".

I measured the expander ball on my 50 plus year old Lyman .303 dies and came up with 7.88 mm (0.3102") so I suspect your dies are not reducing the neck enough or the projectiles are too small. Your inside case mouth dia is larger than your expander ball and barely larger than your projectiles which you may want to measure as well. Projectiles I have measured are around .311" for military and .312" for other. Projectiles for the Russian round would be too small.
GPM.

Worth trying to sand down the expander ball by a couple thou?

Been out in the shed. The dia of sized cases with the neck expanded ran from 0.335" CAC down to 0.331" Winchester so the problem is the die not reducing the neck enough to allow the expander to do its job. CAC cases with the slightly undersize Greek projectile seated 0.335". My Lee loader reduces the OD of sized cases to 0.331". This is way less than your die delivering 0.336".
That is the problem identified. The fix is a new die either FL or perhaps a Lee collet die.
GPM.

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Originally Posted by tommygun

Worth trying to sand down the expander ball by a couple thou?

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Won't help as the die is under sizing the neck. As with the 6.5x55 the problem is sloppy US tolerances and arrogance about non US rounds. Using a Lee collet neck sizing die, which will require neck annealing every few loads to work well, together with your existing die as a body die if and when needed could be your best and cheapest option. PM me for more detail if you wish.
GPM.

I think Lee advise against annealing. Can lead to collapsed necks on the collet die.

We're the dies purchased new?
If used perhaps the previous owner honed them.

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Originally Posted by johnd

I think Lee advise against annealing. Can lead to collapsed necks on the collet die.

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I looked up the instructions and Lee talk about the possibility of excessively annealed cases collapsing in the shoulder but do not advise against annealing. The problem with hard necks. in the collet die, is the additional spring back leaves the necks too large to grip the projectile firmly.
GPM.

Ahh yes �� my recall was hazy good that you still have the instructions

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Originally Posted by tommygun

OK, the expander ball on the 303 FL die is 0.3095, the inside of the case mouth of the offending case is 0.3105 and the outside of the mouth is about 0.336".

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Greetings,
Out of interest I ran a scrap case into my old Lyman .303 FL sizing die with the the expander assembly removed. The outside dia of the neck measured about .329" compared to yours at 0.336". It is pretty clear that your FL die is the problem and the neck is not being sized enough.
Regards Grandpamac.
Another thought. You measured the inside of the neck at .3105" from memory. It is likely that only the mouth of the case is that size and the balance of the neck is larger. Seating a projectile would meet light resistance but would be loose in the neck as you discovered.

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings,
Out of interest I ran a scrap case into my old Lyman .303 FL sizing die with the the expander assembly removed. The outside dia of the neck measured about .329" compared to yours at 0.336". It is pretty clear that your FL die is the problem and the neck is not being sized enough.
Regards Grandpamac.
Another thought. You measured the inside of the neck at .3105" from memory. It is likely that only the mouth of the case is that size and the balance of the neck is larger. Seating a projectile would meet light resistance but would be loose in the neck as you discovered.

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Yes, the only tight part of the neck is the first half mil or so back from the mouth, it's finger tight if that part is holding the sides of the bullet, but if I seat it to the cannelure it pops into the cannelure and is completely loose.

contact LEE directly....they are a good firm thats been around for a long time...Ive got two sets of RGB dies and really do rate them highly .22-25and 222 so they arent all craphola.... maybe as has been suggested yours just have wrong diamentions (the euro vs yank thing perhaps?) Lee might just stump up and send you new set with tighter neck so your cases are being shrunk down enough.its got to be worth a crack Nigel.....