Fussy 243.

Gidday Team.

So thought I'd ask here as a close mate of mine whose a experienced reloader is having trouble with his 243.

Rifle is a howa match 243 24"
Arken 6-24 scope.
suppressor( the Swedish ones that DM sell)
B&C stock.

Projectile- 95gr TMK.
Brass- Norma.
Primer- Fed LR
Powder- Superformance.

Now these are seated 30 thou off the lands from memory( again not my rifle so don't quote me) but this thing will just not Group.

Done a ladder to find a node and then gone and grouped it from there.

Now this thing will not shoot.

Best group is 1 3/4". The hottest group still hasn't found any pressure and their doing 3212fps when I was last out with my mate at the range.

So what we've come to the conclusion of is this rifle does not like those projectiles for some reason unless we are missing something. So perhaps looking at trying a different pill. Like the speer 85gr btsp?

I have no experience with reloading 243s at all so I'm really out of my depth with the calibre.

The other thing yet to be done is to try some factory ammo to see if it's a rifle issue( which we highly doubt but am happy to be proven wrong).

All bases, screws etc are torqued to spec.

The thing that baffles me is the TMK is my go to bullet for 7 and 30 cal and I'm yet to see one that won't shoot it albeit in the said calibres from first hand experience so I'm not sure what the go is with this .243? And help would be highly appreciated

Change pill, change powder or change your expectations, 30 thou off jam/lands is as good a point as any to load to if they fit in the mag.
Personally I would do a charge ladder to find the velocity I need/expect to do what I want it to and then when you find the velocity you want load up as many as your comfortable, in reality 30 has been proven to give statistically relevant results and then shoot them at a target, even if you need to shoot 3-5 at a time then let it cool off, rinse repeat till you've shot them all. That will tell you true accuracy.
Granted if your not comfortable loading up 30 load up 10, if after 10 shots the group is awful it isn't going to get better by shooting another 20 rounds.
If it's shit refer to my opening statement.... "Change pill, change powder or change your expectations"

Some rifles just don't like a given projectile.

You are on the right track trying different factory ammo - find the most accurate one, reload that projectile to the same velocity and fine tune from there. Don't play with the OAL at the same time as you only want a single variable!

Have some different 6mm projectiles here if you want to try different. What twist rate is it?

Aside from the issues around tuning.

The rifle will never shoot the 95gr TMK. That bullet requires a 1:9" twist and Howa .243s come with a 1:10".

The 95gr Targex will stabilise.

@dannyb

He's done a ladder but still hasn't found pressure is all. It's been done with 5 shot groups and letting the barrel cool, bagged front and rear etc. Suppressor off after each string. I was just having a good hard think about; what am I missing here, what's my mate missing about this 243?.
@gimp

We had a look at a few twist rate guides and most of them said the howa with the 1 in 10 twist does up to 100gr? But could you please explain why it would do the targex and not the Sierra as their the same weight? I've never used or seen a targex pill so but are they quite different in ogive etc?

I think going forward he will try the speer 85gr btsp which we will start on this week.

Cheers for the replies folks it got me in particular a bit stumped is all!
@Husky1600#2 thank you for the kind offer. We will see how these Speers go and update you.

The Sierra has a long VLD shape. It requires a 1:9" twist regardless of the weight. Check the box or the Sierra website.

The 90gr ELDX is another good option for a 1:10. The 90gr TGK is marginal in a 1:10 and likely will not work.

The 95gr Targex is a good bullet and has shot well from several 1:10" twist .243s for me - every rifle I have tried it in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock river arms hunter

@dannyb

He's done a ladder but still hasn't found pressure is all. It's been done with 5 shot groups and letting the barrel cool, bagged front and rear etc. Suppressor off after each string. I was just having a good hard think about; what am I missing here, what's my mate missing about this 243?.
@gimp

We had a look at a few twist rate guides and most of them said the howa with the 1 in 10 twist does up to 100gr? But could you please explain why it would do the targex and not the Sierra as their the same weight? I've never used or seen a targex pill so but are they quite different in ogive etc?

I think going forward he will try the speer 85gr btsp which we will start on this week.

Cheers for the replies folks it got me in particular a bit stumped is all!
@Husky1600#2 thank you for the kind offer. We will see how these Speers go and update you.

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If it's shit refer to my opening statement.... "Change pill, change powder or change your expectations"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gimp

The Sierra has a long VLD shape. It requires a 1:9" twist regardless of the weight. Check the box or the Sierra website.

The 90gr ELDX is another good option for a 1:10. The 90gr TGK is marginal in a 1:10 and likely will not work.

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Don't believe this?, put up a really big target and I mean big a1 sized at 200 metres and fire a few rounds at it, go look at the holes if there are any. You'll be a convert

They say you need an 8T for this pill. Notorious for needing specific twist. Fell into that error.

Those TMKs are a fussy projectile and in my experience very few rifles like them

Even some of the older 100 and the 105gn Sierra pill can be loose in a 1:10 tube.

The 90 nbt is a good pill in a 10 twist, and the 95 maybe ok in your barrel.


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Depending on end usage,maybe try some basic cup n core Hornady or speer in 80-90 grn weights. The 87grn Hornady had a huge following for many years.

Try changing the pill. Sometimes a rifle simply wont shoot the pill you want it to....youll have to find what the rifle likes

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Don't believe this?, put up a really big target and I mean big a1 sized at 200 metres and fire a few rounds at it, go look at the holes if there are any. You'll be a convert

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The only thing you will get is heartache unless you have a tight twist. Look at the US gunsites . The common complaint is that Sierra never put bold warnings that they needed a tight Twist. Sierra could have taken a cue from Hammer which clearly states the minimum twist requirements for their projectiles. What is hard about that. Sierra spend all the money on development for a new projectile and ignore a simple thing like twist requirements. Sierra if you read FB get a regular flogging from hunters.

Have you check all the scope ring/ pic rail screws? I had the same problem with my rifle until i found that the rear ring screws are loose. The two which holding the ring to the pic rail. Wasted alot of ammo

Greetings All,
I always get a good laugh when I see a thread where a rifle is described as fussy or doesn't like a particular projectile. Rifles are inanimate objects and don't like or dislike anything. They do however have capabilities. The English landscape architect Capability Brown would trudge around the estate of each commission before reporting back to the owners "These are the capabilities". It is the same with rifles. Things like magazine length, barrel twist and chamber dimensions all have an effect on what the rifle can shoot well. As projectiles are becoming longer even when the same weight we are likely to hear more tales of woe like the one in the OP where significant quantities of components shot down range in a rifle that never was likely to shoot them well in the first place.
Some .243 rifles have faster twists Remington 700 rifles have always had 1 in 9" twists recently increased to 1 in 8". Some may be slower as well. The first question when developing a load should be "What is this rifle capable of shooting well?
GPM.

And whilst I have reloaded very little being a fitter turner in a past life I can say that you could get a barrel that has a different harmonic to a bunch in the same batch.
I've had a piece of steel on the later that was just arse to turn. Lots of vibrations when turning and can make finishing cuts problematic. Even hard spots.
Try everything, slow up-slow down, different speeds/feeds, tips, cutting fluids, bits of wood pressed against the material.
If that one was a barrel it could indeed be very fussy compared to its brethren.
There was some scuttlebutt over the ruger mini14s when they first came out.
Bill Ruger supposedly in a cost cutting measure used a very fast aggressive machining technique on the barrels.
For the most part you do read/hear how a lot of those first rifles were minute of A4 at best. That machining technique could well have put stresses into the barrel.
To qualify that in a very minor way an acquaintance some years ago was culling in the north island. One of his fellow shooters had a mini rebarrelled to 222 as it was issued. Thing started to shoot like a demon.
And back on subject there could be just enough leeway on the barrels that some stabilise hundies but only just. The next one just won't.
I think that's why Nosler do 90 and 95gr BSTs. If one doesn't they other one should

ROCK, help your mate. Howa 243s comes with a 10twist barrel, which will stabilize projectiles to a cetain length.

The 95gr TMk, are longer than the lenght projectile a 10t barrel can stabilise.

I would suggest you mate look into Swift 90gr or Hornady 87s, both will work great in his rifle.

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Originally Posted by Jaco Goosen

ROCK, help your mate. Howa 243s comes with a 10twist barrel, which will stabilize projectiles to a cetain length.

The 95gr TMk, are longer than the lenght projectile a 10t barrel can stabilise.

I would suggest you mate look into Swift 90gr or Hornady 87s, both will work great in his rifle.

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@Jaco Goosen we've gone back to the drawing board. He's ordered some of the speer 85gr btsp and will grab some factory ammo(80gr blue box) to rule out the rifle too. Also looked at the 90gr Eld X but will just try adjusting one variable at a time..
Thanks for the reply. Once I'm back up and running I'll have some work for you too. Cheers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TeRei

The only thing you will get is heartache unless you have a tight twist. Look at the US gunsites . The common complaint is that Sierra never put bold warnings that they needed a tight Twist. Sierra could have taken a cue from Hammer which clearly states the minimum twist requirements for their projectiles. What is hard about that. Sierra spend all the money on development for a new projectile and ignore a simple thing like twist requirements. Sierra if you read FB get a regular flogging from hunters.

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I don't have a box of the 6mm 95 handy, but is it not labeled like this?

The website clearly states 1:9" minimum required

Attachment 261875

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gimp

I don't have a box of the 6mm 95 handy, but is it not labeled like this?

The website clearly states 1:9" minimum required

Attachment 261875

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@gimp

Yep you're dead right it does after we double checked it.

It's just been a learning curve for me with this thread. Like why a 95gr Targex will stabilize and the Sierra won't despite being the same weight albeit different profiles. Thanks for the info I've learnt a bit!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock river arms hunter

@gimp

Yep you're dead right it does after we double checked it.

It's just been a learning curve for me with this thread. Like why a 95gr Targex will stabilize and the Sierra won't despite being the same weight albeit different profiles. Thanks for the info I've learnt a bit!

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An example of the profiles is the heavy for calibre roundnose projectiles.
Like the hornady 117s in 25 cal.
Think that's right.
They are actually quite short for the weight and are meant to stabilise in the slower twist older rifles.
The opposite of the newer high BC long jobbies

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock river arms hunter

@gimp

Yep you're dead right it does after we double checked it.

It's just been a learning curve for me with this thread. Like why a 95gr Targex will stabilize and the Sierra won't despite being the same weight albeit different profiles. Thanks for the info I've learnt a bit!

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Targex make a 105 that will stabilise in a 1:10 (you need to ask for them specifically cos there is a 105 for faster twists too).

i found the 243 tmk pills terrble in me 243- changed to Targex 95g- primo

Out of interest for anyone reading all this it is not bullet weight that decides required twist rate but bullet length!
if there was a heavy enough core material available I could make a 200gr bullet that would stabilise in a 6mm 10" twist barrel as long as the finished bullet length was short enough.
This is also the reason that plastic tip bullets in various calibers wont stabilise as the bullet LENGTH can exceed the barrel twist even though the bullet weight is supposed to work.
Hope this makes sense.
Cheers.

It's the bullet. Unless your mate has an 8 twist he's pushing shit uphill.

I see it's all been said above, you're onto it now.

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Originally Posted by ANTSMAN

i found the 243 tmk pills terrble in me 243- changed to Targex 95g- primo

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My experience too.

Round nose heavy for calibre rule supreme up close.... I do recall 100grn .243 round nose being a thing a few years back...

Greetings All.
Some notes on the 6mm cartridges.
After everything settled down after WW2 and the Korean conflict it was a good time for some new cartridges. Warren Page had been trying to persuade both Remington and Winchester to produce a 6mm cartridge based on a case around the .308 Win or .257 Roberts. He didn't get much responce but later found that both were working on a cartridge. Winchester were thinking of a varmint to deer cartridge and used a 1 in 10" twist on their .243 while Remington were thinking more of a varmint cartridge and went with 1 in 12" in their .244. Big mistake. The .244 tanked in the market and increasing the twist to 1 in 9" plus renaming it the 6mm Remington didn't help. The 6mm Remington is arguably a better cartridge with slightly better performance and load ability but it is gone.
The Brits had brought out a whole bunch of .240 cartridges in the 1920's including one just like the 6mm Remington and one like the 240 Weatherby but these seem to have gone as well.
Now there are heaps of new 6mm cartridges so we will have to see how that turns out.
Regards Grandpamac.

Think I’ve got some factory 100 grain Hornady interlock rounds left lying around I’ll bring them next weekend.

The 100gr Hornady Interlocks will work great in the Howa - I've used them a lot.

87 gr hornady v max shot well in every 243 I've owned, cheers.
But may not be suitable for your application??

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Round nose heavy for calibre rule supreme up close.... I do recall 100grn .243 round nose being a thing a few years back...

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There are heavier than that.
Geco do a 105, don't know if it's a RN
Have seen a 110gr for sale in the past.
Would imagine it would getting close to a RN for that weight

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TARGEX

Out of interest for anyone reading all this it is not bullet weight that decides required twist rate but bullet length!
if there was a heavy enough core material available I could make a 200gr bullet that would stabilise in a 6mm 10" twist barrel as long as the finished bullet length was short enough.
This is also the reason that plastic tip bullets in various calibers wont stabilise as the bullet LENGTH can exceed the barrel twist even though the bullet weight is supposed to work.
Hope this makes sense.
Cheers.

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In the 1850s this was figured out by a bloke called green hill who came up with a formula to calculate the twist rate needed for any bullet length or alternately the longest bullet that will work with a given twist. It completely ignores weight . It also takes into account the projectile speed as as a bullet slows it's rotational speed slows and gyroscopic stability decreases. Which explains the occasional I'm on target at 100 yds but can't hit the target at 200. I know I've been there.

So working on that theory...if a trebly will stabilise a 70 grn Speer happily.anything shorter should work fine??? Trimming a long hollow nose back to the magic length should see it now stable??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

In the 1850s this was figured out by a bloke called green hill who came up with a formula to calculate the twist rate needed for any bullet length or alternately the longest bullet that will work with a given twist. It completely ignores weight . It also takes into account the projectile speed as as a bullet slows it's rotational speed slows and gyroscopic stability decreases. Which explains the occasional I'm on target at 100 yds but can't hit the target at 200. I know I've been there.

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Actually the opposite is true, rpm degrades much less quickly than velocity....so bullets on the verge of stability wobble there way out untill velocity has dropped enough that the rpm will hold them stable.