Thread: Getting ES down with 223

My "heavy hitting" 223 load is sweet as. TMK's over AR2206H with Lapua brass and Federal primers goes great and I get an ES of about 20 past a labradar and it really lets me stretch the 223 out. I've obviously stumbled into a magic sweet spot with this combo though, because I've struggled to get anything nearly as consistent using other components.

Admittedly, I'm using inexpensive brass for other loads, but I can't believe I should need to use the uber premium stuff to get ES down under 100 providing I'm doing everything else right - so I'm left thinking it's mostly to do with the powder/primer/projectile combo.

Have tried workups with a few different 50-55gr projectiles, AR2219, BM2, and AR2206H, CCI 400's, 450's, and Federal 205's. Whilst I've gotten some good groups, nothing has come close to being as consistent as the TMK load. I noticed an improvement when I switched to using a Forster FL die. Neck tension seemed to become a lot more consistent and ES improved... But not enough for my liking.

Anyone noticed a particular change that cut theirs down? I don't notice this problem with larger cartridges.

(PS I know a chrono has ruined many a good load - I don't care, I'm a perfectionist)

Tried them and no statistical improvement. I do aim for nodes but the ES being so high makes them hard to identify. Might get 40 on one trip and load up a few more in case I'm onto something then it'll be over 100 again.

What weight are your tmks? bearing surface area has an influence on powder burn rate which might be a factor here.

I know how to look for all this stuff. The brass is reasonably consistent and I do anneal it. FL sizing with a minimal shoulder bump is more consistent between reloads. My point is the nodes one would expect to find are hidden by the noise.

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

What weight are your tmks? bearing surface area has an influence on powder burn rate which might be a factor here.

69 grains.

The bearing surface on a projectile isn't something we can change though. If you had the same problems I'm seeing and identified that was the cause, how did you work around it?

A ladder test of one shot at each charge weight is statistically utterly worthless. Might as well write the charge weights on a bit of paper and draw them out of a hat - has the same chance of stumbling on to a useful load.

What sample size are you using?
When you do a charge test what increments do you use?
Are you crimping or not?
Are you full length sizing each time and if so how consistent it the shoulder bump?

Gents, thanks for your input. I'm not looking for critique on my reloading and load development processes at this point. Just asking if you've encountered the same issue with 223 then what's worked for you to fix it?

Or if you've chrono'd your own 50-55gr 223 load, what kind of ES/SD are you getting? It might be that what I'm seeing is par for the course.

I hear what you are asking and don't have an answer but I'm hoping @Jakegreen might chip in as he is a low es guru (in other calls it had to be said. . . )

Please, let's not do this here.

Originally Posted by Steelisreal

A ladder test of one shot at each charge weight is statistically utterly worthless. Might as well write the charge weights on a bit of paper and draw them out of a hat - has the same chance of stumbling on to a useful load.

Graphing the speeds will identify the velocity nodes and therefore which charge weight(s) to concentrate on for further devlopement groups.
It's a very efficient method.

I've used the method before with good results. Typically I did three shots per charge weight to give a more detailed graph showing ES/SD/AVG rather than a single data point.

What became clear was that not all powders displayed the flat spots that you're meant to be looking for. Some were basically linear when plotted out. 2208 usually had clear nodes. It wasn't intentional, but I found one the other day with a 308 anyway whilst doing a quick workup to check for pressure; three charge weights across 0.6gr of 2208 produced only 9fps in change in velocity. I plan to repeat that to confirm the result and will probably load a group somewhere in amongst it, assuming it wasn't a fluke.

Anyway, none of the powders I've tried with 50-55gr bullets in 223 produce these flat spots. Or if they are there, the ES/SD is high enough to obscure them.

So yeah.. Other people's chrono results would would be good to compare against.

Originally Posted by Pommy

69 grains.

The bearing surface on a projectile isn't something we can change though. If you had the same problems I'm seeing and identified that was the cause, how did you work around it?

I never had it as a problem but as you mentioned 50 and 55 gr projectiles as well the bearing area increase will have an influence on the pressure/time curve.
My use may be different to yours however.
I gave up loading 223 about 5 years ago when I got into a "bit of pest control" amongst other things. Reloading 100 or more every week became tedious and I found that belmont black gave me all the accuracy and consistency I would ever need at less than half the price.
I have only once bothered to chrony the belmont stuff when I did a drop chart for it.
It gives away 100 fps compared to my old handloads 2950 fps cf 3050 and 10 rounds had an es of 55. I havnt bothered to chrony any since then and there have been a few boxes. Out to 350 yds they all been good enough to hit hare sized target if the winds not too frisky although I do prefer being closer.

Originally Posted by Pommy

Admittedly, I'm using inexpensive brass for other loads, but I can't believe I should need to use the uber premium stuff to get ES down under 100........ But not enough for my liking..... I don't care, I'm a perfectionist)

Kinda contradictory statements.....

I'm a perfectionist also and soon as I switched to Lapua ES dropped to almost single digits.

Ironically, under 350mtrs I didn't notice any real world difference at all to accuracy. YMMV

Also, 53g V-Max, Lapua brass, fed primers and BM2, (will have to check for charge later) for 3300 fps

ES at 12.

Out of an 8 twist Blaser R8 with 20 inch barrel