Thread: Getting ES down with 223

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

I have found the biggest influence on ES is the quality of the brass and neck tension consistency. There is annealing and then there is annealing done properly - big difference.

Agreed. When the annealing "fad" appeared I decided unless I could do it consistantly case to case I wouldn't bother. I never had a need to do it due to split necks. Since gone down first the Benchsource path followed by the AM$.
My last build, 308 FTR and my 6.5x47L I get single figure ES and stunning accuracy, especially the 6.5x47.
My 7.5x55 Swiss I get around 30 fps ES but still great accuracy given the type of rifle.

Wide ES doesn't necessarily mean poor accuracy at close ranges. It's more telling at 1000 yds and on.
Conversely I've had loads with single figure ES that I've scrapped as they didn't perform accuracy wise.

I no longer neck turn except for my tight neck 6.5AI. All my recent builds are no neck turn chambers.

I haven't seen much difference in quality between Peterson and Lapua. Both have the 1/2 thou seam in the neck. The same seam I suspect runs the full case length. I used to get anal and turn this out. It doesn't affect my runout which is <1 thou usually. The Peterson 308 brass is currently parked up as it has reduced capacity over the Lapua. I won't bother getting any more Peterson.

Since AMP I have changed my loading technique. I anneal every firing. FLS using a Forster die (absolutely top quality) with expander removed, and the expand using a 21st Century expander. This process has seen my runout and ES drop very favourably. Previously I neck sized using Redding Comp Bushing dies. My runout with these was not consistant/frustrating. The worst creator of runout I found was Redding Body dies. They just don't support the neck when sizing.

Chasing runout I have been down the Redding Comp dies and Wilson inline dies path. Now that I'm Forster FLSing and then expanding I'm finally in control of neck tension and runout.

Originally Posted by zimmer

The worst creator of runout I found was Redding Body dies. They just don't support the neck when sizing.

Hey Zimmer Always fun talking to you about reloading.

I'm curious about your experience with the Redding body dies. That's what I've been using for years. Do you think the body die somehow introduced runout on the neck or projectile ? I am not sure how that would happen, unless the die itself was cocked at an angle, and the whole case body got skewed... What neck die did you follow the body step with ? My sequence is Redding body, followed by Lee collet neck die, both using Forster cross bolt lock rings.

Originally Posted by ebf

Hey Zimmer Always fun talking to you about reloading.

I'm curious about your experience with the Redding body dies. That's what I've been using for years. Do you think the body die somehow introduced runout on the neck or projectile ? I am not sure how that would happen, unless the die itself was cocked at an angle, and the whole case body got skewed... What neck die did you follow the body step with ? My sequence is Redding body, followed by Lee collet neck die, both using Forster cross bolt lock rings.

I checked fired cases out of the chamber and they had zero runout. Sized in the body die (not just my 308) and there would be a few thou runout. Not much but there. Measured with a 21st Century gauge both on the outside of the neck and inside. Following up with Redding Comp bushing and runout not removed. Tried leaving the bushing floating and also locked down and no difference.

The Forster (or and quality brand) FLSing die totally supports all aspects of the case, the neck cannot move.

Lee Collet dies. Love em. Used up to the time I changed to FLSing everytime. Never had runout issues using the Lee.
Although I still use them on my 223.

Yep, changed to Forster lock rings years ago. Probably didn't have the gear back then to measure improvements but did it as a matter of course to hopefully remove a variable. Like a lot of things, a little bit of this and a little bit of that can gave a cumulative effect so it's a matter of working thru them.

One thing I've noticed, and it's probably spring back, hopefully minimized by annealing is that the neck can have a slight taper front to back on it after sizing. Not helped also hy the sometimes poor quality of bushings. Although seating the projectile should expand the taper uniformly it doesn't always seem to be the case. Runout at the point on the projectile just outside the case neck can be zero whilst at the projectile tip can be lots.
I have honed my seating stems to individual projectiles eg the Juggenauts and this mostly eliminates this.

Originally Posted by zimmer

Agreed. When the annealing "fad" appeared I decided unless I could do it consistantly case to case I wouldn't bother. I never had a need to do it due to split necks. Since gone down first the Benchsource path followed by the AM$.
My last build, 308 FTR and my 6.5x47L I get single figure ES and stunning accuracy, especially the 6.5x47.
My 7.5x55 Swiss I get around 30 fps ES but still great accuracy given the type of rifle.

Wide ES doesn't necessarily mean poor accuracy at close ranges. It's more telling at 1000 yds and on.
Conversely I've had loads with single figure ES that I've scrapped as they didn't perform accuracy wise.

I no longer neck turn except for my tight neck 6.5AI. All my recent builds are no neck turn chambers.

I haven't seen much difference in quality between Peterson and Lapua. Both have the 1/2 thou seam in the neck. The same seam I suspect runs the full case length. I used to get anal and turn this out. It doesn't affect my runout which is <1 thou usually. The Peterson 308 brass is currently parked up as it has reduced capacity over the Lapua. I won't bother getting any more Peterson.

Since AMP I have changed my loading technique. I anneal every firing. FLS using a Forster die (absolutely top quality) with expander removed, and the expand using a 21st Century expander. This process has seen my runout and ES drop very favourably. Previously I neck sized using Redding Comp Bushing dies. My runout with these was not consistant/frustrating. The worst creator of runout I found was Redding Body dies. They just don't support the neck when sizing.

Chasing runout I have been down the Redding Comp dies and Wilson inline dies path. Now that I'm Forster FLSing and then expanding I'm finally in control of neck tension and runout.

Greeting Zimmer,
A most interesting post. I had read that ES was a poor indicator of accuracy at shorter ranges but this and your following post has put more meat on those bones. I guess it comes down from what you can do in handloading to what you need to do to achieve the results that you are after or require. I can't remember ever shooting beyond 300 metres on the range and definitely not in the field, neither of which looks likely to change in the future.
That said, if going through all of the possible steps fills the handloaders heart with joy then why not. There will be no argument from me.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by zimmer

Agreed. When the annealing "fad" appeared I decided unless I could do it consistantly case to case I wouldn't bother. I never had a need to do it due to split necks. Since gone down first the Benchsource path followed by the AM$.
My last build, 308 FTR and my 6.5x47L I get single figure ES and stunning accuracy, especially the 6.5x47.
My 7.5x55 Swiss I get around 30 fps ES but still great accuracy given the type of rifle.

Wide ES doesn't necessarily mean poor accuracy at close ranges. It's more telling at 1000 yds and on.
Conversely I've had loads with single figure ES that I've scrapped as they didn't perform accuracy wise.

I no longer neck turn except for my tight neck 6.5AI. All my recent builds are no neck turn chambers.

I haven't seen much difference in quality between Peterson and Lapua. Both have the 1/2 thou seam in the neck. The same seam I suspect runs the full case length. I used to get anal and turn this out. It doesn't affect my runout which is <1 thou usually. The Peterson 308 brass is currently parked up as it has reduced capacity over the Lapua. I won't bother getting any more Peterson.

Since AMP I have changed my loading technique. I anneal every firing. FLS using a Forster die (absolutely top quality) with expander removed, and the expand using a 21st Century expander. This process has seen my runout and ES drop very favourably. Previously I neck sized using Redding Comp Bushing dies. My runout with these was not consistant/frustrating. The worst creator of runout I found was Redding Body dies. They just don't support the neck when sizing.

Chasing runout I have been down the Redding Comp dies and Wilson inline dies path. Now that I'm Forster FLSing and then expanding I'm finally in control of neck tension and runout.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/shoo...es-from-bipod/

So Froggy got it all wrong? LOL. Best advice I know about biffing the expander father than you can shoot. 2C.

Originally Posted by TeRei

https://www.accurateshooter.com/shoo...es-from-bipod/

So Froggy got it all wrong? LOL. Best advice I know about biffing the expander father than you can shoot. 2C.

This was bad advice the last time I remember you posting it. It still is.