Getting ES down with 223

The crosshair on the Nikon currently mounted to my 223 is quite thick and pretty much obscures those dots. I used the BDC to aim at the dots below, so blowing out the aiming point was not an issue. The WSM group hopefully demonstrates that I'm not completely useless behind the trigger (rifle is not zeroed for that load). With a beefier scope and a properly bedded rifle, I'd expect those 223 groups to shrink considerably and I understand *why* they are a bit sub-par currently, so that's OK (the two left hand groups are around 0.8" and the right hand group is around 1.2").

For the purposes of this exercise though, I am more concerned with the velocity data. I'd expect that smaller cases like 223 will inevitably have proportionally higher ES/SD than larger cases, as a similar variation in charge weight or case volume is going to be a greater percentage in terms of change on a smaller charge or smaller case - which effects pressure more thus effects velocity more. Even so, the 223 is approx 25gn of powder vs the WSM's 65gn, that's only 2.6x the capacity in the larger case, and charges are accurate to the kernel in both... yet there's 7x the ES/SD in the 223.

I know we are also dealing with higher velocities in the 223 too and that say a 1% ES from 2800ft/s would be 28 vs a 1% ES from 3300ft/s being 33. That still doesn't account for enough. With the 69gn load doing 3120, the ES is 15-20ft/s, so the 223 clearly is capable of it... just these effing 55gn bullets aren't getting the memo.

If you are getting good ES/SD with 69gr out of the same 223 rifle, could it be something to do with twist rate ?

Have you tried other 55 gr projectiles ?

Yes I've tried 53gn VMax, 50gn Speer TNT's, and 55gn Speer Gold Dots.

In theory the projectile is going to be a little harder to get going down the rifling which might cause a little more of a pressure spike as the bullet spins up, but that would be true of any projectile weight and to my mind should make it easier to get more consistent ignition. How do you think it might negatively effect ES/SD?

Are all the 55gr and lighter projectiles giving you large ES/SD numbers ?

It could be that you are seating the light pills further from the lands, so more time in the freebore giving you inconsistent pressure ? Not something I have a lot of experience with, one of the other guys might have some ideas on this.

I wouldn't expect twist to give you poor ES, more likely poor group sizes. Not like you are using a slow power. I use BM2 for 55/62/69gr in the 223.

Yep, everything's pretty similar. With those Nosler bullets being quite long, seating them out to 2.350" actually gets them pretty close to the rifling.

I am going to try the nylon brush as per the AMP video you linked to. It'll be interesting to see if it follows that more consistent seating force = more consistent neck tention = any change in ES. That's not something I do currently and it's a cheap experiment. For last night's test, the cases all had the necks wiped out with a rag after sizing and trimming - but maybe the brush will clean more thoroughly? Dunno...

I'll try the following with BM2 and Starline brass:

10rds virgin brass (so clean necks), FL sized, wiped
10rds fireformed brass, FL sized, necks wiped
10rds fireformed brass, FL sized, necks brushed

I'll stick with the GM205M primers, so that I'm not changing too many variables.

Shall apply some graphite to the necks for the brushed cases too.

Round 2... 25.6gn Benchmark 2

Skipped the control group with virgin brass, as the first round showed very little difference between new and fireformed (all else being equal)... Plus I was feeling lazy.

Same Forster dies. Same scale. All cases FL sized, trimmed, and wax residue wiped off with a rag. Second set has the extra step of the necks getting a scrub with a nylon brush and a dip in some graphite.

Wiped
3237
3242
3196
3205
3199
3221
3250
3242
3231
ES 54, SD 20.4, AVG 3225

Wiped, scrubbed, graphite
3296
3291
3271
3314
3254
3301
3292
3310
3266
3278
ES 60, SD 19.6, AVG 3287

Interesting thing I note from this is the 62ft/s increase in average speed on the second batch. Not sure how to explain that. First thought was perhaps the powder was acting like moly coating on the bullets... But my understanding is that coating bullets alone will drop velocity which you then recoup (and more) by adding more powder... So there must be something else going on?? Without the 3254 shot, the numbers would be a fair bit better, but I don't think it's fair to exclude it.

Temperature difference perhaps?

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Similarly cold nights between outings. Slow rate of fire with a fan going to stop it getting too hot and rifle allowed to cool completely between strings.

This was the starline brass again.

Slight improvement there with the slower powder, so next up, I'll try BM8208. Might switch brass to PPU too.

It's a conundrum alright :D

I'd be interested to see if your SD numbers differ dramatically for other charge weights. Maybe do 5 shot strings at 24.0, 24.5. and 25.0 ?

And then of course different primers. Wish I had different primers to send you for testing, but I use Fed205M for 223 as well...

When I did something similar in 308 several years ago, I tested Fed 210M, CCI BR2, and RWS. The RWS just about halved SD compared to the others...

Yeah the primers can sure make a difference. I have 400's and 450's I can test. Maybe that'll be a bit further down the line. Take the most promising load from all this testing, then see what effect the three types of primers have.

... Unless someone can save me the time and knows that one particular type fixes everything in 223 like RWS did for you in 308 :)

I have done workups before and failed to find any nodes where ES/SD tightened up considerably with these light bullets.

I've found the remington 7.5 primers work well. I can send you some of you like.

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Thanks for the offer. Let's put a pin in that. I'll do another one or two tests and the best load can go into a primer shootout.

Hey have you tried your loads in another rifle, or try someones else's known "good" loads in yours?? This might eliminate the rifle as a cause??

now that right there is a plurry good point.......

I think the consistency I get with the 69's demonstrates that there's no fault with the rifle. Had some new lapua brass to fireform so chucked together another quick load this evening (1c at the range) and got some good results...

FL sized. Necks wiped.
26.0gn Benchmark 8208
Federal primer
55gn Speer Gold Dot
2.300" COL

3274
3272
3273
3239 (I was giving about 1 min between shots and noted the barrel was a bit warm, so decided to wait 5mins between shots from hereon)
3279
3288
3284
3294
3286

If I blame 3239 on either barrel heat or the government, then the ES is 22 and the SD is 8.2. It's 55 and 16 included, but those other 8 are good enough to warrant further investigation.

So I think next step is to repeat that test with PPU and Starline/ADI to see if the numbers are significantly better or worse.

Whoohoo ! That's more like it.

With your ADI brass, is there any significant crimp on the primer pocket ? That could also potentially be a cause for inconsistent primer seat / ignition. I just use a neck/mouth champher tool to cut out any crimp in the primer pocket.

Be very interesting to see if these results are matched in your other brass :thumbsup:

IVE got CCI & federal match primers if you need some to try.

@ebf I had some 5.56 ADI which had crimped pockets but I removed those and chopped them all down to make 300 blackout cases (where it's since been used to make some really consistent subsonic loads :)).

The remaining ADI I have is the "proper" 223 headstamped stuff which isn't crimped.

Same load (55gn Gold Dot, 26gn 8208, 2.300") tried with different brass:

PPU (fireformed, annealed, FL sized, trimmed, uniformed)
3245
3265
3293
3268
3293
3282

Starline (same treatment)
3301
3337
3370
3329
3317
3322

Starline is lower capacity so the increase in speed was to be expected. Each group has an outlier. With PPU it was the 3245 cold bore shot. With starline, it was the odd 3370 shot in the middle of the string.

PPU: ES 48, SD 18.7, AVG 3274.
Minus outlier: ES 28, SD 13.3, AVG 3280

Starline: ES 69, SD 23.3, AVG 3329
Minus outlier: ES 36, SD 13.6, AVG 3321

Interesting how Lapua isn't performing that much better than PPU. Group sizes were comparable.

Also chrono'd some 300 blackout 110 VMax. Early stages of load dev, so not huge sample sizes. Starline brass and CCI 450's.

20gn AR2205 @ 2.100"
2335
2321
2344
2343
2362
ES 41, SD 14.9, AVG 2341

(next powder redacted because there's no load data whatsoever and it's a dangerously fast stuff. I want no responsibility of anyone trying the combo should it appear in some idiot's search results one day)
Secret sauce 2.050"
Xgn
2116
2119
2148 (case had a flattened primer and later on wouldn't fit into a shell holder so has been discarded)
ES 32, SD 17.7, AVG 2128

X+0.5gn
2169
2174
2180
ES 11, SD 5.5, AVG 2174

X+1gn
2216
2220
2226
ES 10, SD 5.0, AVG 2221

I find this interesting because Starline's 300 blackout and 223 brass is formed from the same basic case. With 300 blackout, right off the bat, I'm getting low double digit ES and single digit SD's (in an even smaller case nonetheless). With their 223, not so much...

I think next step is to do that primer shootout with 223.

Interesting, I have a new 300 Blk bolt gun (that will have to run factory ammo for the foreseeable future until our build is complete)- what barrel length is your Blackout ??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tentman

Interesting, I have a new 300 Blk bolt gun (that will have to run factory ammo for the foreseeable future until our build is complete)- what barrel length is your Blackout ??

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Hey it's a 16.5" Bergara single shot.

Primer Shootout
PPU brass, fireformed, annealed, trimmed, uniformed, necks brushed. 55gn Speer Gold Dot, 25.8gn BM8208, 2.300" COL.

Federal GM205M
3280
DNR
3234
3228
3223
3232
3227
3234
3280
3234
ES 57, SD 22.2, AVG 3244, 0.773"

Attachment 173183

CCI400
3297
3228
3255
3187
3212
3195
3286
DNR
3292
ES 110, SD 44.6, AVG 3244, 1.088"

Attachment 173184

CCI450
3228
3234
3228
DNR
DNR
MISFIRE
3249
3223
3220
3248
ES 29, SD 11.6, AVG 3233, 0.531"

Attachment 173185

So great result there with the 450's. This isn't the first time I've seen 8208 work well with that primer.

Anyone want to buy a brick of CCI 400's? :)

Bonus 300 blackout. 110 VMax, 20.5 AR2205, CCI450, 2.100".

2391
2383
2395
2401
2403
ES 22, SD 8.6, AVG 2395, 0.58"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pommy

Bonus 300 blackout. 110 VMax, 20.5 AR2205, CCI450, 2.100".

2391
2383
2395
2401
2403
ES 22, SD 8.6, AVG 2395, 0.58"

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That's some great results with that 300BLK, what length barrel and twist are you using?
I'm getting similar ES and SD with that same power, using LC and Hornady 223 brass cut down to 300BLK with Fed205 primers and 125gr SST and TMK.
The only this difference is that I weight batch brass into 3 weights classes light, medium and heavy to keep the ES down. If I do this I can get the ES down to 9 on a 10 shot string.
Spent the last few days cutting down and trimming 600 cases for a couple of goat culls coming up in the next few months.

@tikka, 16.5" 1:8 twist. That's seated 0.050" longer and 1 grain over ADI max.

Next I just need to modify a seating stem so it's not munting the bullets under such heavy compression. I think Belmont Magnum Pistol is the same powder as H110 so that would probably get the same kind of speeds without needing to be crunched down.

X+1.5gn of The special sauce I was trying is giving 2261 but it's scattering them all over the place and I doubt it'll tighten up before primers start popping.

Attachment 204544

Thought I'd share some recent success I've had doing a quick workup with 50gr ballistic tips and AR2219.

Disclaimer: I start 0.6gr ABOVE ADI's listed maximum and end up 2.4gr over. You're touched in the head if you clone this without doing a workup. Your rifle is a unique snowflake anyway so just start from scratch rather than using data from forums / fecalbook.

I've had these bullets sat in a box for ages now and figured it was time to either use them or offload them. Since they are light for calibre I went with a fast for calibre powder. I don't want to waste time shooting these things at <3200 since I've got a boringly accurate load with 55gr gold dots that are doing that speed. So I refer to some of my older notes and use GRT to work out where my actual maximum is likely to be and load 10 steps of 0.2gr up to that point, to see how fast I can actually drive them.

PPU once fired brass, annealed, FL sized, tumbled.

Attachment 204545

Charge, AVG, ES, SD
24.6, 3193, 77, 39
24.8, 3226, 31, 16
25,0, 3275, 67, 36
25.2, 3309, 91, 46
25.4, 3365, 30, 17
25.6, 3364, 78, 42
25.8, 3378, 42, 21
26.0, 3428, 18, 9
26.2, 3459, 64, 32
26.4, 3496, 50, 26

Looking pretty average until everything came right at 26.0 grains. Seeing some patterns there with the opening/shrinking of the groups correlating with the ES/SD, I graphed the data:

Attachment 204550

I'll have to try this with a couple more types of bullets in the near future.

Have you tried constant neck tension from a mandrel? I use a mandrel now ( remove the neck expander from all my dies now ) and.expamd the necks after with an apw one from ozark. My es cut by half.

I use mandrels on a couple of other cartridges after sizing with some other dies but haven't found the need with the forster ones. The tension I get is consistently light. I'm not measuring runout but with a single digit SD and 0.086" group, I see nothing to suggest it's off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zimmer

Agreed. When the annealing "fad" appeared I decided unless I could do it consistantly case to case I wouldn't bother. I never had a need to do it due to split necks. Since gone down first the Benchsource path followed by the AM$.
My last build, 308 FTR and my 6.5x47L I get single figure ES and stunning accuracy, especially the 6.5x47.
My 7.5x55 Swiss I get around 30 fps ES but still great accuracy given the type of rifle.

Wide ES doesn't necessarily mean poor accuracy at close ranges. It's more telling at 1000 yds and on.
Conversely I've had loads with single figure ES that I've scrapped as they didn't perform accuracy wise.

I no longer neck turn except for my tight neck 6.5AI. All my recent builds are no neck turn chambers.

I haven't seen much difference in quality between Peterson and Lapua. Both have the 1/2 thou seam in the neck. The same seam I suspect runs the full case length. I used to get anal and turn this out. It doesn't affect my runout which is <1 thou usually. The Peterson 308 brass is currently parked up as it has reduced capacity over the Lapua. I won't bother getting any more Peterson.

Since AMP I have changed my loading technique. I anneal every firing. FLS using a Forster die (absolutely top quality) with expander removed, and the expand using a 21st Century expander. This process has seen my runout and ES drop very favourably. Previously I neck sized using Redding Comp Bushing dies. My runout with these was not consistant/frustrating. The worst creator of runout I found was Redding Body dies. They just don't support the neck when sizing.

Chasing runout I have been down the Redding Comp dies and Wilson inline dies path. Now that I'm Forster FLSing and then expanding I'm finally in control of neck tension and runout.

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https://www.accurateshooter.com/shoo...es-from-bipod/

So Froggy got it all wrong? LOL. Best advice I know about biffing the expander father than you can shoot. 2C.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TeRei

https://www.accurateshooter.com/shoo...es-from-bipod/

So Froggy got it all wrong? LOL. Best advice I know about biffing the expander father than you can shoot. 2C.

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This was bad advice the last time I remember you posting it. It still is.

29 deer for the year so far. Must be doing something wrong. LOL.

One fella I know traced the issue with his reloads to the expander stem. I don't recall the brand of dies but what he found was the expander clamp system was pushing the expander ball off to one side. Being a machinist, he modified the clamping system to allow for lateral float so the first case straightened the expander ball and if the cases were straight the expander floated and aligned itself. Meant a separate decapping die required but worked. So provided its straight the expander in itself doesn't cause any issues that aren't already apparent but if it isn't straight you might have an issue...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TeRei

29 deer for the year so far. Must be doing something wrong. LOL.

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Completely irrelevant.

Yeah you can usually see when it's off-centre by looking up the die from below.

I quite like running the case into the die then lifting the expander so that it's in contact with the the inside base of the neck. This centres it before you tighten it off. Then when you draw the case out, the top of the neck is still supported (and held straight) whilst the expander opens it up. The Forster FLS dies have the expanders high up to let you do this. With other dies it means using a separate decapper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TeRei

29 deer for the year so far. Must be doing something wrong. LOL.

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Horse,water,drink........and all that lol