Help wanted to identify this 22-303 wildcat

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30-12-2023, 08:47 AM
akaroa1

2 Attachment(s)

Help wanted to identify this 22-303 wildcat

I'm looking at buying a rifle chambered for this 303-22 / 22-303 Wildcat

Unfortunately this looks to be the most improved of all the 22-303 Wildcats I have ever seen or found on line

Here is a fired case beside a 303 round

Attachment 240483

And here is a rough drawing of the case dimensions

Attachment 240484

I'm guessing it might be a 22-303 Improved 40º
Which is likely as big as you can go on 303 brass
Neck is short but still one caliber long

Has anyone got any images, specs or data on a case like this ?
I see mention of it only on line but no illustrations

303British.com mention it
It might be in the book "THE ACCURATE LEE ENFIELD "

The rifle comes with some brass and dies
My first thoughts were it will be a barrel burner !
But well I could have fun burning out the barrel anyway and then re barrel it to something a little more sensible

Looking at the case capacity it seems to be slightly larger than the 220 Swift
And I checked with powder and it has 20% more capacity than the 22-250

The rifle will cope just fine because it is the best rifle action ever built.

Next time I visit the gent I will try and prise it out of his hands and give it a test run
And check the barrel twist to see how big a bullet weight it might cope with.

I think when this rifle was built it was all about speed because pre range finders and ballistic calculators and dial up scopes
30-12-2023, 08:51 AM
sportco62

Sure it isnt a 303-22 Sprinter as made in Australia commercially?
30-12-2023, 09:18 AM
grandpamac

Greetings,
I think it might be the .22/303 Full Length (Falcon) cartridge mentioned in Cyril Waterworth's books. He gives loads for a number of powders most of which are obsolete. A max load of 35 grains of IMR3031 with the 50 grain projectile is mentioned with a hair raising velocity but slower powders would likely be preferred.
GPM.
PS It is bigger than the swift and likely with a 14 inch twist barrel.
30-12-2023, 09:39 AM
akaroa1

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportco62

Sure it isnt a 303-22 Sprinter as made in Australia commercially?

@sportco62 No this has a longer body and shorter neck than the Sprinter

At first firing on formed brass the body will have to blow out to the shoulder
It's a shame its the fully improved version of some sort

I guess someone looking for 4000 fps in the day
30-12-2023, 09:41 AM
akaroa1

Quote:

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings,
I think it might be the .22/303 Full Length (Falcon) cartridge mentioned in Cyril Waterworth's books. He gives loads for a number of powders most of which are obsolete. A max load of 35 grains of IMR3031 with the 50 grain projectile is mentioned with a hair raising velocity but slower powders would likely be preferred.
GPM.
PS It is bigger than the swift and likely with a 14 inch twist barrel.

@grandpamac Again even bigger than the Falcon due to the sharper shoulder

I must take a look at the data for the 5.56x57R case from Europe.
They do one and I can't remember what they call it
30-12-2023, 10:21 AM
outlander

There was/is a 6mm Musgrave made in South Africa. I recall the case resembling that quite well.
30-12-2023, 10:24 AM
grandpamac

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaroa1

@grandpamac Again even bigger than the Falcon due to the sharper shoulder

I must take a look at the data for the 5.56x57R case from Europe.
They do one and I can't remember what they call it

It is begging to be called the ".22/303 Full Length Falcon Maximum Ackley Improved" or something like that. Nothing engraved on the barrel I assume.
GPM.
30-12-2023, 10:38 AM
akaroa1

Quote:

Originally Posted by grandpamac

It is begging to be called the ".22/303 Full Length Falcon Maximum Ackley Improved" or something like that. Nothing engraved on the barrel I assume.
GPM.

The vendor is pretty reserved about letting this one go.
Hasn't shot it in a long time
Will likely never shoot it again
Knows I can drive it easily

Really the over capacity case doesn't worry me too much.
The barrel twist and state of the throat will be the deciding factors

It might be a unique variation on the whole improved craze of its time
30-12-2023, 10:46 AM
blip

Its a 22 faf. Aka 22 fast as fuk
30-12-2023, 10:53 AM
akaroa1

Quote:

Originally Posted by blip

Its a 22 faf. Aka 22 fast as fuk

It's will be a FAF to form brass
( fiddly as fuck )
30-12-2023, 11:08 AM
Marty Henry

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaroa1

@grandpamac Again even bigger than the Falcon due to the sharper shoulder

I must take a look at the data for the 5.56x57R case from Europe.
They do one and I can't remember what they call it

The 5.6x61R Vom Hofe super express might also be worth a look
30-12-2023, 02:48 PM
akaroa1

1 Attachment(s)

I've just been forming 225 Winchester brass

So for comparison

22 Hornet
222 Rimmed
225 Winchester formed from 30-30 and neck not blown out until fire forming
22-303 Improved

Attachment 240518
30-12-2023, 07:52 PM
csmiffy

So the guy that has it used to shoot it? Dies he have any idea how to load for it
30-12-2023, 09:19 PM
akaroa1

Quote:

Originally Posted by csmiffy

So the guy that has it used to shoot it? Dies he have any idea how to load for it

Highly unlikely

Having all the stuff and having used it are not the same thing

I have brought a number of vintage rifles with dies, brass, bullets or moulds and they were not correct for the chamber.
Thinking it is something and collecting the parts to shoot it are not the same as shooting it
31-12-2023, 12:50 AM
Dicko

As you would know there are several versions (at least 4) of .303/.22 kicking about.

The full length version was the falcon, based on the original / not improved case. The other FL version on the improved case is likely to be the Epps. Epps was a Canadian dude who created a line of cartridges on a improved case.

Apologies for teaching you to suck eggs.
Dont think I’d want to shoot hot loads in a SMLE.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
31-12-2023, 06:54 AM
sportco62

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...rtridges/29473

I think your case is the 303-22 Sprinter
31-12-2023, 06:55 AM
grandpamac

Greetings all,
Thanks for reminding me about the Epps cartridges @Dicko. One thing that interests me @akaroa1 is where did your sample case come from? I assume that it was shot in the rifle,
Regards Grandpamac.
31-12-2023, 07:07 AM
akaroa1

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportco62

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...rtridges/29473

I think your case is the 303-22 Sprinter

Nope

That site lists
Sprinter 52mm
Wasp 44mm
Falcon 56mm

So this case is essentially a Falcon Improved
31-12-2023, 07:12 AM
akaroa1

Yes reputed to be shot in the rifle

But although I have seen the rifle, case And dies, I have never seen them in the same place at the same time.

They are among tonnage and in vastly different areas of that tonnage.
These things take time to come together
31-12-2023, 08:42 AM
Marty Henry

By your previous comment re the best rifle action ever built and knowing your "fetish" I'm assuming that it's a falling block of some description. Everyone with the possibly exception of myself seems focussed on the weirdo cartridge rather than what it supposedly fits into.
31-12-2023, 09:01 AM
sportco62

Australia and Canada had a bunch of differant 303 cartridges , used in Martini rifles as well as SMLE rifles.

Whilst there are many "official" versions , there are many home-made versions as well. This may be one of those .
31-12-2023, 09:46 AM
Marty Henry

It won't be a martini knowing akaroa, the tipping block is not his favourite action.
31-12-2023, 09:53 AM
akaroa1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

By your previous comment re the best rifle action ever built and knowing your "fetish" I'm assuming that it's a falling block of some description. Everyone with the possibly exception of myself seems focussed on the weirdo cartridge rather than what it supposedly fits into.

1885 need I say more
31-12-2023, 09:56 AM
Marty Henry

Not without steamy pictures.
31-12-2023, 10:01 AM
No.3

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaroa1

Yes reputed to be shot in the rifle

But although I have seen the rifle, case And dies, I have never seen them in the same place at the same time.

They are among tonnage and in vastly different areas of that tonnage.
These things take time to come together

"Tonnage"... :D
31-12-2023, 10:07 AM
akaroa1

Quote:

Originally Posted by No.3

"Tonnage"... :D

A descriptive term for a gun nut who lacks a filter or any form of self restraint
31-12-2023, 11:04 AM
grandpamac

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaroa1

A descriptive term for a gun nut who lacks a filter or any form of self restraint

We all suffer from that to a variable extent. We are just updating our contents insurance so my thoughts have turned to what rifles I actually need. I don't do shotguns. The number seems somewhere between four and six rather than the much larger number that currently reside in my safes. Many of the extras have been given to me or have connections to people that no longer dwell amoung us. Should these be lost then a replacement would not be needed. I should move some of them on perhaps. Maybe.
GPM.
31-12-2023, 11:13 AM
akaroa1

Quote:

Originally Posted by grandpamac

We all suffer from that to a variable extent. We are just updating our contents insurance so my thoughts have turned to what rifles I actually need. I don't do shotguns. The number seems somewhere between four and six rather than the much larger number that currently reside in my safes. Many of the extras have been given to me or have connections to people that no longer dwell amoung us. Should these be lost then a replacement would not be needed. I should move some of them on perhaps. Maybe.
GPM.

Well GPM you know there is a good home at my place should you ever carry through with your thinkings
31-12-2023, 11:56 AM
Kiwi.bloke

You’ve got my dies and reamer… turn the barrel back enough to clean it up into a 225W… lol. Maybe a hint more 1885 ish than having a Commonwealth round in an American rifle! That should open up a whole new avenue of discussion.
31-12-2023, 12:32 PM
-BW-

It’s very cool. I hope you get your hands on the complete set up. Then you can post the range report… I’d love to see what it can do!
31-12-2023, 12:41 PM
akaroa1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwi.bloke

You’ve got my dies and reamer… turn the barrel back enough to clean it up into a 225W… lol. Maybe a hint more 1885 ish than having a Commonwealth round in an American rifle! That should open up a whole new avenue of discussion.

Yeh I could but we are talking turning back a number of threads to re chamber and then throw out all the fore end fit and scope blocks.
I don't want to mess with that Californian Walnut stock

Better plan is go shooting
Wear out the barrel
Fit a new barrel and profile full length tapered octagonal exactly like the one on it.

Trouble is it takes me a long time to wear out a barrel because I'm spoiled for choice
31-12-2023, 12:53 PM
Kiwi.bloke

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaroa1

Yeh I could but we are talking turning back a number of threads to re chamber and then throw out all the fore end fit and scope blocks.
I don't want to mess with that Californian Walnut stock

Better plan is go shooting
Wear out the barrel
Fit a new barrel and profile full length tapered octagonal exactly like the one on it.

Trouble is it takes me a long time to wear out a barrel because I'm spoiled for choice

Yes, no challenge to that statement. I seem to recall there is a cartridge website, they may have it in their DB