Thread: The Howikka Test Bed

Really to get above 2900 with 77s/80 in hunting length barrels you need everything going for ya, cases with an H20 capacity of at least 31 (both the Geco and old Federal I have do this, some old Hornardy was 31.5) and plenty of mag length.

Looks like you’ve been drinking some of that Rokslide coolaid but I have too . Nice looking setup @Stocky
How do you find that bolt knob? I’m keen to try one on my tikka but have just brought what’s on the aspire model.
I’ve got the same scope and really like it apart from being chunky.


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Originally Posted by Dreamer

Looks like you’ve been drinking some of that Rokslide coolaid but I have too . Nice looking setup @Stocky
How do you find that bolt knob? I’m keen to try one on my tikka but have just brought what’s on the aspire model.
I’ve got the same scope and really like it apart from being chunky.


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In fairness I was convinced of FFP scopes by some kiwis and there weren't too many options with reticles I didn't hate. But the rokslide coolaid just sped up what I was already doing. I stepped down from 308 to 7mm08 to 6.5creed to a braked creed to make my kimbers more shootable and each time found killing arguably got better.

Rokslide and @gimp made a pretty good argument for the 223 and i wanted to be able to shoot more for less. I also use to hunt with the AR a fair bit so know the 223 is capable.

I like the bolt knob. It was primarily a weight savings thing. It was easy to make (for someone with CNC access). If your interested North Canty give me a Bell and you welcome to fondle.

I am going to try a GPO super Compact out as the reticle appears to have very similar subtensions and a few extra features but we will see.

OK so some Data.
The very first session I just shot a few 75 Eld Loads from the Tikka to empty the brass and groups were not great around 3-4inchs at 100yards. But this was ammo that's ridden in my hip belt pocket rattling round for quite a few hunts as backup ammo so I tried to ignore it.
This last session I had to use up the last of some old H4895 I had just enough to load 25 rounds a smidge below my Tikka load. I figured why not see of seating depth had a drastic effect on groups. I was looking for exclusions rather than actual results. To see if a high sample size test was worth while.

All new prepped Sako Brass
2.52" is the lands in the Howa
Tested .20", .60", .100", .140", .180" jump
24 Grains H4895
Rem 7.5 primers

Here are the results

Nothing conclusive but confirmed this is not a combination i will be following up with as it doesn't meet my desired accuracy standard of 1.5moa for 10 shots.
An interesting notes was contrary to conventional knowledge velocity actually consistently reduced with COAL. If I test this further I would do a 15-25 shot groups of 2.38" and 2.46" in round robin and see if there is any significant difference.

So following the idea component changes are the fastest way to get drastic result changes I tested a series of preferable powders. Again an initial exclusion test to pull out loading high sample sizes of powder that fail the requirements in 5 shots.

The following loads are guessed loads based on previous experience.

Results of the 75 ELD M powder test.

All groups an improvement. Whilst not fully statistically significant they all show improvement and could potentially warrant further inspection but whilst they could be representative of the largest group to be expected it's more likely they are average and will grow more as more shots are fired. They are also still above what I ideally wanted. Any of these could be hunted with and allow me to use a projectile i know to work well. Range would be limited due to precision and would require a 30 shot minimum to set a decent zero due to the lack of precision.
No load data for Staball Match and first time loading it so load is pretty weak.
Up until this stage no pressure signs or oddity of note.

Now the less desirable component change. I decided to try the 77 TMKs as I had some on hand and know they are supposed to be very terminally effective. I have less preference due to higher cost, lower availability, lower BC, and less potential MV.

I decided to try all powders I would consider to decide if another projectile needed to be considered.

I open a new (old) bottle of H4895 that was still sealed.

Here are the results:

Still not a big fan of the H4895 so maybe the 75 ELD and the H4895 was the worst starting combo. Maybe coincidence.

The trend shows that this barrel much prefers the 77TMK. Interested to know if something like and 85 hybrid that shares the Tangent Ogive will also shoot better vs the Secant ogive of the VLD.

Shows the downsides of low data sets as not a single powder proves to be better. The SD of the Staball Match is intriguing especially as it should meter well on the progressive. It does need to upped to meet the 2650 I would like as my minimum MV preference to make up for the TMKs lack of BC.

To note all shots fired between 10:30 and midnight. All loads completed on a Dillon 550 Progressive with as thrown charges from my Lyman Powder electronic powder measure.

Plan is to load up some hotter Staball Match loads to try get desired velocity. In the desire for BC performance the 62 ELD VT will also be tried. Likely if the Staball match loads meets my requirements the rest of the Sako brass will be loaded for hunting, in the meanwhile, and testing will shift to some of my other brass. In terms of the most promise I would probably follow up with AR Comp as of the powders that meter throw a powder throw well it has the lowest mean radius.

Very useful data, very good to see it posted. I wish I had the discipline to follow such an approach.

My thinking with the 223 has sorta developed from various calibres I've tried and discarded including 22 and 6mm CM (won't fit in mini size actions, big and a lot of muzzle flip) 6 ARC and Grendel ( had poor bullet performance on game with both). None of the reasons are based on sample sizes big enough to be scientific , or are necessarily logical!

Over 45 years of hunting and the last 10 of being able to build really accurate hunting weight rifles that potentially can reach out to 500M+ with authority (my 6.5×284 for example) I've never actually sent a round past 340M, and have eventually gotten most of the animals I initially lined up on at extended range.

After watching what @gimp and @Tahr have achieved with the 223 and the more recently available projectiles I figured that for me, a 223 was a viable option to 300M+ for me. And I'm now on rifles 3&4 in that quest. 3 was an experiment in "young fella rifles" and is a terrific range rifle but too heavy at nearly 4kgs. #4 is a Schultz and Larsen "Legacy" and it will make the grade, it's accurate, nearly light enough (I see I posted it might make 3.0kgs, it won't, it's gonna finish at more like 3.3) . Anyhoo enough about my stuff.

What I have relearnt from my testing is the benefit of shooting "powder ladders". I It tells you if the projectile is suitable for the rifle. It gives you a max load- I use GRT and load (but not always shoot) to well past book max. It shows if the rifle will tolerate thrown powder charges (that's all I do, a 50 fps ES won't kill accuracy at 300-350M) and it eliminates the "this is accurate now can I just get it to x velocity rabbit hole thinking".

PS. If you are not using GRT I'm happy to run scenarios for you, as long as you provide the input variables including the H20 capacity of a fired case (and I'm nosey, I'd like to know what the Sako brass is compared with others. I have a but of it but am currently using other stuff.

Originally Posted by Tentman

PS. If you are not using GRT I'm happy to run scenarios for you, as long as you provide the input variables including the H20 capacity of a fired case (and I'm nosey, I'd like to know what the Sako brass is compared with others. I have a but of it but am currently using other stuff.

I use GRT as an inital idea. I find it's got incorrect models for lots of projectiles length. But it gives a ballpark of acheiveable velocity and the pressure required. It also doesn't have Staball Match and a few others.
I'm not usually this organized but want to be so going forward I will try use this thread to keep myself sorted.

Originally Posted by Dreamer

that Rokslide coolaid

It's sort of funny cos the "rokslide coolaid" is, in my view, a more obnoxious echo-chamber version of what many of us here have been doing for a very long time !

Originally Posted by Tentman

I've got a Ziess HD5 3-15 coming, supposedly under 500gms/18oz. I'm also getting a Nielson sonic 35 as that should save a useful amount over the DPT.

My stock is walnut and currently 960gms, it might get a few grams removed from under the barrel and the butt.

Barrel is 530mm/21" and I've had the 77s at an honest 2960 but that's pushing 65,000psi according to GRT, which I'm not sure is a good idea in 223 brass. The 2930 is closer to 60,000psi which is a wee bit saner, especially if a cobber grabs a couple of rounds off ya. I'm not worried about brass life, it's a hunting rifle and it's mostly lost anyway. Brass is Geco, it's not showing any pressure signs at all and primer pockets are still good after 3 reloads. The big thing is mag length, I've got 61.5mm which is way more than the Sako 75/85 (with the consequence for them that anything over 2900 requires pressures beyond sensible).

I'm happy as larry shooting things with 80s out to 400+m at 2700-2800fps MV. Bear that in mind - is the extra 100fps worth fighting for ?