I reloaded some 45-70 for my new rifle!

I recently brought a h&r reproduction 1873 trapdoor springfeild it came with dies brass and bullet mold
Casted arround 200 of what im told is its favourite food (450gn Lyman .457) yesterday it was sold to me with 20 rounds of ammo ammo was loaded with 63gn of FFFG black powder and the 450 Lyman .457 bullet which kicked like a mule
So i loaded lighter ones with 45gn of FFG and a cork wad to take up the empty space should make it alot more enjoyable to shoot

I just love the flexibility of black powder aslong as theres no air gaps you can use as little or as much powder as you like

What are you using for Bullet Lubricant?I dip the tip of the projectile in cheap mayonase before I shoot it.No good for hunting but works well on the range,keeps the fouling soft.Many people use water based hand cream but I find Mayo works just as well.

I shoot a original trapdoor and use the Lee .459 Hollow base bullet.Its the one most people use with older Rifles,it "setts up" and helps engrave into the Rifling better.Something you won't have to worry about with your new Barrel.

I shoot a Harrington and Richardson trapdoor (1971 reproduction ) and a pedersoli Sharps Carbine. Load 63 grains FFG, beer coaster wad, bees wax wad, beer coaster wad, 500grain pure lead projectile solid base, sized and lubed with a Lyman sizer, using bees wax, chef aid, lanolin mix lube, I clean with boiling water from the breech end of the barrel and swab out till clean then oil, final swab before oil is done with meths to remove any moisture, shoots 2-3" off hand at 50 metres. Also have a 577/450 martini a 12.17 x 44 rolling block, a 577 cape gun,and 500 BP express double. Enjoy shooting BP and the bigger calibres and the recoil, smoke and smell.

Try dropping your "wad stack" back to just the Beer Coaster Wad and external lube before loading.Don't even size the Bullet.
You might be pleasently supprised with the result.

I cocked around for years with Bees wax cookies,felt wads,milk carton wads,various lubricats,Wool filler,kapok,you name it.Now I load 70grn FG into my Martini Cases,fill the air gap with Foam Backer Rod,dip my loaded rounds into Mayo before loading and at the end of the session scurry around the range collecting my Foam bits to load next time.

I load .600" Round Balls into my Snider cases with 60grn FG and some Bog Paper to take up the Gap.Sniders arn't known for their accuracy anyhow and the .600" Round ball is the best out to 100m that I found from five different Molds and far to much cocking about.

55 grains of powder was the standard carbine load with a 405 gr bullet, 70 grains was the rifle load. I load both for my 84 springfield long rifle. Powder, rolled oats filler then unsized bullet lubed with beeswax preserving wax blend. It can hit a 12 in disc at 250 m in the right hands. Cleaning is a carbon copy of what macca does. Bp is very forgiving ask for advice by all means but experiment till you find what works best for your rifle

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by norsk

Try dropping your "wad stack" back to just the Beer Coaster Wad and external lube before loading.Don't even size the Bullet.
You might be pleasently supprised with the result.

I cocked around for years with Bees wax cookies,felt wads,milk carton wads,various lubricats,Wool filler,kapok,you name it.Now I load 70grn FG into my Martini Cases,fill the air gap with Foam Backer Rod,dip my loaded rounds into Mayo before loading and at the end of the session scurry around the range collecting my Foam bits to load next time.

I load .600" Round Balls into my Snider cases with 60grn FG and some Bog Paper to take up the Gap.Sniders arn't known for their accuracy anyhow and the .600" Round ball is the best out to 100m that I found from five different Molds and far to much cocking about.

---

I've tried other ways bog paper etc, this shoots accurately enough for me and is easy to clean, however take yr point, when the oldies loaded them it was primer, powder, projectile.
The original snide projectile had a hollow cavity in the nose filled with clay I believe, that's why they have accuracy issues?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

55 grains of powder was the standard carbine load with a 405 gr bullet, 70 grains was the rifle load. I load both for my 84 springfield long rifle. Powder, rolled oats filler then unsized bullet lubed with beeswax preserving wax blend. It can hit a 12 in disc at 250 m in the right hands. Cleaning is a carbon copy of what macca does. Bp is very forgiving ask for advice by all means but experiment till you find what works best for your rifle

---

I struggle to get 70 grains in without severe crushing!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maca49

I've tried other ways bog paper etc, this shoots accurately enough for me and is easy to clean, however take yr point, when the oldies loaded them it was primer, powder, projectile.
The original snide projectile had a hollow cavity in the nose filled with clay I believe, that's why they have accuracy issues?

---

There are alot more reasons why that have accuracy "issues" than the Bullet failing to obturate "sett up" into the Bore,but its deffinatly the biggest one.Three of my Bullet molds try to imitate a sphere "conical ball" and none are as accurate as a round ball thats over bore diameter.Still they are fun to shoot and easy to reload for once you get all the bits.

The reason I offered my suggestion of going back to basics with the 45/70 was that I thought that without the wad stack,grease cookie,sheeps wool etc in my 577/450 that it just wouldn't shoot.I knew no better at the time.It shoots well enough with the basic load and the biggest aid to accuracy was finding a Sunderland sight,a windage and elevation adjustable target sight for it.That did 10X more for the accuracy than any load development.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maca49

I struggle to get 70 grains in without severe crushing!

---

70 grains leaves no room for filler in my cases and the bullet (lee 405 gr flat nose) rests on the powder with the crimp groove level with the case mouth. Ive never crimped rounds which is probably why they have lasted so long, the stickyness of the lube keeps the bullets in ok

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by norsk

There are alot more reasons why that have accuracy "issues" than the Bullet failing to obturate "sett up" into the Bore,but its deffinatly the biggest one.Three of my Bullet molds try to imitate a sphere "conical ball" and none are as accurate as a round ball thats over bore diameter.Still they are fun to shoot and easy to reload for once you get all the bits.

The reason I offered my suggestion of going back to basics with the 45/70 was that I thought that without the wad stack,grease cookie,sheeps wool etc in my 577/450 that it just wouldn't shoot.I knew no better at the time.It shoots well enough with the basic load and the biggest aid to accuracy was finding a Sunderland sight,a windage and elevation adjustable target sight for it.That did 10X more for the accuracy than any load development.

---

Ive got some 577 projectiles I think Lyman die, can send a few if you want to try. The 577/450 is a bastard to load, with the neck you have to fill and thats expensive! or use fillers. The original shell was lined with paper to cut the load down. I have a shitload of SPANZ cases and load as 45/70, just as impressive when you pull the trigger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

70 grains leaves no room for filler in my cases and the bullet (lee 405 gr flat nose) rests on the powder with the crimp groove level with the case mouth. Ive never crimped rounds which is probably why they have lasted so long, the stickyness of the lube keeps the bullets in ok

---

Im using Winchester brass and crimp, i do not anneal and get a great life from my shells, I also under size the projectile, I size at 451, thats what the guy I bought the trap door off had set up and he shot for NZ all round the world, so why change? probably just bumps up

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by norsk

What are you using for Bullet Lubricant?I dip the tip of the projectile in cheap mayonase before I shoot it.No good for hunting but works well on the range,keeps the fouling soft.Many people use water based hand cream but I find Mayo works just as well.

I shoot a original trapdoor and use the Lee .459 Hollow base bullet.Its the one most people use with older Rifles,it "setts up" and helps engrave into the Rifling better.Something you won't have to worry about with your new Barrel.

---

using bees wax based lube I make myself I'm not to worried about fouling as I use swiss black powder which is very clean burning for black powder I also wipe the barrel out every 5 shots when shooting so as long as I don't get lead build up in barrel I'm happy

Well I`m still going through testing loads to see what my kiwi sharps likes, black powder wise I use 65-70gr of 3f with a 406 gr and 420gr .459" dia lead bullets lube with bees wax/lanolin/olive oil mix, punches a neat round hole, so my rifling is working. I`m also trying paper patched bullets, so far a 420gr one with 38grs of 3031 is not to bad at 50m , so will see how it goes at 100m. I know it`s a black powder cartridge, but it`s just great fun to shoot with anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maca49

Ive got some 577 projectiles I think Lyman die, can send a few if you want to try. The 577/450 is a bastard to load, with the neck you have to fill and thats expensive! or use fillers. The original shell was lined with paper to cut the load down. I have a shitload of SPANZ cases and load as 45/70, just as impressive when you pull the trigger

---

Ive got spanz ones for the martinis only hold about 55 grains of 2f and the little shoulder makes seating bullets easy. Have had to turn some down to get them chambered in a webly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maca49

Ive got some 577 projectiles I think Lyman die, can send a few if you want to try. The 577/450 is a bastard to load, with the neck you have to fill and thats expensive! or use fillers. The original shell was lined with paper to cut the load down. I have a shitload of SPANZ cases and load as 45/70, just as impressive when you pull the trigger

---

Thanks for the offer of some projectiles.Do your SPANZ cases have the paper in them to reduce the volume?

I have heard of Kynoch cases having some kind of insert to reduce the volume when loaded with Smokeless powder but never heard of original
cases which were made from brass foil having any inserts.
I have loaded a few smokeless rounds using a kapok filler.'went well enough.

SPANZ cases are solid brass machined in a lathe to the basic outside diamensions of a 577/450 case, but it is drilled and machined with a .45 hole parallel side down to the flash hole. IE you load it like a 45/70 as there is no shoulder, you have to fettle the outside to fit them to your chamber being made from solid brass. Once fitted and fired you don't have to size to the chamber again. Made in NZ I think, no longer produced, but easy to copy with a CNC lathe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by homebrew.357

Well I`m still going through testing loads to see what my kiwi sharps likes, black powder wise I use 65-70gr of 3f with a 406 gr and 420gr .459" dia lead bullets lube with bees wax/lanolin/olive oil mix, punches a neat round hole, so my rifling is working. I`m also trying paper patched bullets, so far a 420gr one with 38grs of 3031 is not to bad at 50m , so will see how it goes at 100m. I know it`s a black powder cartridge, but it`s just great fun to shoot with anything.

---

Old line flow computer paper or old Buttuck? Dress pattern paper, get it from OP shops for paper patching

Yep nz made South pacific arms nz think they were based in napier in the 80s made 577/450, and snider cases. Long gone but the cases come up at auctions occasionally and are keenly sought after.

I have a few Snider but use 28g brass shot shells from the states fire formedAttachment 61954

tried out my new loads today recoil was halved and accuracy while only at 50m looked very promising

can also use 28ga plastic hulls in the snider as well

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rambo-6mmrem

can also use 28ga plastic hulls in the snider as well

---

Watch the plastic lining of the barrel, Once used 12g BP in an old DB shotgun, on cleaning I remove a very long condom, scary, BP heat melts the wad and layers it down the barrel, maybe OK if no plastic wad

never use plastic wads always cork or fibre but I use plastic hulls in bp shotgun loads not an issue