Thread: Inaccurate Cartridges

Another thing to consider, the reloading components available to us seem to have gotten better over the years. I loaded for the same 7x57 for at nearly 30 years, in fairly small quantities, never touched the rifle/scope or its bedding etc. When I first started shooting it in 1985 the best I could do with it was 30mm at 100M. When I gave it away in 2014 it was shooting 19mm groups consistently. I don't think my shooting improved one iota as I got older, the reverse in fact.

Originally Posted by Tentman

Another thing to consider, the reloading components available to us seem to have gotten better over the years. I loaded for the same 7x57 for at nearly 30 years, in fairly small quantities, never touched the rifle/scope or its bedding etc. When I first started shooting it in 1985 the best I could do with it was 30mm at 100M. When I gave it away in 2014 it was shooting 19mm groups consistently. I don't think my shooting improved one iota as I got older, the reverse in fact.

aint that the truth!!!!!!

Could it also be related to how flat shooting a calibre is?

eg a fast calibre such as a 220 Swift will require less adjustment for drop within its given range than other calibres with a more rainbow-shaped trajectory so may start to be referred to as more inherently accurate when really that is just semantics

Any cartridge made by PMC seems to be crap in my opinion, Tried the 308, 223 and 7.62x39 and all shot saucer sized(at least) groups. Put some hornady traing then some American Eagle through the T3 straight after and got 1/2 moa groups so the rifles good.

Steve123.......back in the day before I got reloading gear thats what we fed my poohseventy with. the longest shot on big game I have sussessfully taken was with PMC with the soft lead bit taken off as my mag used to mash them under recoil. first shot at chammy was aimed at spine and trimmed her toenails,giving me "kentucky windage" 2nd shot was all that was needed.....work that out on drop chart and its 350-400yards..... also pmc is plurry good brass.

If you look at the history of some of these cartridges you will find mention time and again how in general it was the rifle and ammunition makers that let them down. It still happens today. Take the 7x57 ammo that is made in the states. They download them because the ammo company's are afraid that they might be used in an old gun that might then blow up, which in turn gets them into litigation because dumb ass didn't check to see that his firearm was up to the task.
But this is aside from the original question that was asked.
I'm sure that if you take any cartridge and built with care a rifle especially for that cartridge you would see results that would make you happier than using a worn out gun with pitted barrel and poor bedding, shit trigger and poor shooting technique.
Take the 303 Bren gun this was found to be too accurate yep that's right. For what it was designed for! As a cover/suppressing fire weapon which is ment to spray bullets around, this weapon would give good to astonishing groups. This was used to good effect against snipers in the Italy campaign by NZ troops.
Again back to the question which is not asking to compare one cartridge against another but is a cartridge accurate!
If it hits what your aiming at then you can't really complain ah

Pretty much any calibre I try to shoot would qualify

Had a remmy 7615 pump gun in .223 for a while, it shot like shit... As has being said more of a rifle issue than a calibre issue..


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Much is made recently of the inherent accuracy of having a short fat powder column. wsm saum br etc
Yet many get great results out of 30-06/6.5 etc

I have no experience to quantify the differences but am interested where this thread will head.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Much is made recently of the inherent accuracy of having a short fat powder column. wsm saum br etc
Yet many get great results out of 30-06/6.5 etc

I have no experience to quantify the differences but am interested where this thread will head.

VC, I'm pretty sure this short fat column primarily promotes efficiency with the powder burn and this leads to being able to finely tuning the accuracy with smaller increments of powder. Some of our bench resters may be able to confirm this

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Much is made recently of the inherent accuracy of having a short fat powder column. wsm saum br etc
Yet many get great results out of 30-06/6.5 etc

I have no experience to quantify the differences but am interested where this thread will head.

@veitnamcam,

The 30/06, despite of any long-powder-column disadvantage if such exists, will have one advantage from its long case length: A LONGER cartridge will more readily line up with the bore axis, which in turn helps its bullet engage with the rifling on-axis.

A bullet which is perfectly balanced on the rifling axis is less like a corkscrewing aerobat before its spin eventually stabilises it at some point of its corkscrew. This is why some large groups often describe circles (with the centre less densely holed, rather than a uniform peppering of holes covering the entire area of a circle).

Originally Posted by Cordite

@veitnamcam,

The 30/06, despite of any long-powder-column disadvantage if such exists, will have one advantage from its long case length: A LONGER cartridge will more readily line up with the bore axis, which in turn helps its bullet engage with the rifling on-axis.

A bullet which is perfectly balanced on the rifling axis is less like a corkscrewing aerobat before its spin eventually stabilises it at some point of its corkscrew. This is why some large groups often describe circles (with the centre less densely holed, rather than a uniform peppering of holes covering the entire area of a circle).

Yes but would be mitigated by close chamber dimensions.

I was hoping someone may have burnt a couple of barrels in a target rig with a long case and gone to a short and fat case in a apples with apples comparison.

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Yes but would be mitigated by close chamber dimensions.

I was hoping someone may have burnt a couple of barrels in a target rig with a long case and gone to a short and fat case in a apples with apples comparison.

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@vietnamcam

Apples for apples, I was thinking of long vs short cartridges, both in military loose chambers. With the exact same tolerances employed, the longer cartridge will of course be more likely to sit on-axis. But how big that effect is for accuracy... who knows.

To help cartridges sit concentric with the rifling bore, some advocate putting a thin O-ring round the base of the cartridge, a couple mm ahead of the rim on rimmed cartridges or extractor groove on non-rimmed cartridges, to help keep the case body centered in the chamber. Helps ensure the bullet engages concentric with the bore. Of course this is also nifty if you reuse cases and that first shot fireforms the brass for your chamber, and only neck sizing from then on. To be completely obsessive, you'd also mark 12 o'clock on the rear face of the cartridge, in case the chamber is assymmetric, and from then always chamber it 12 o'clock up.

the .30/06 is no slouch either....buggered if I would want to be out in the boonies anywhere under say 800yards if someone was peering through a scope ontop of one,even if its over a hundred years old....same goes for the .45/90 and the like.
they could all shoot out to distance its just our expectations and technogatgetry have got so much better/ahead.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

the .30/06 is no slouch either....buggered if I would want to be out in the boonies anywhere under say 800yards if someone was peering through a scope ontop of one,even if its over a hundred years old....same goes for the .45/90 and the like.
they could all shoot out to distance its just our expectations and technogatgetry have got so much better/ahead.

I had a Remington 03-A3 sporter that was an absolute tack driver even with open sights, heavy as the day is long though!
I asked a gunsmith to tap the action for me so I could fit a scope and he refused, reckons they were made from some of the hardest steel out and smiths hate tapping them as it wrecks their gear. Real nice rifle it was.