Issues Seating Cast Bullets

So tried to do some 300blk reloads with cast 151gr bullets today, didn't go so well......

Using Hornady "custom grade" die set with what I think is a universal 30cal seating die, the bullets have a huge step in the tip from the seating stem.
The die set came with two different seating stems (on for VLD type bullets) but both had the same effect.

The cases are unfired Hornady ones that I ran through the sizing dies.
There seemed to be a bit of resistance when seating the bullets, more than I am normally used to but ususally use a bushing die.

Is this a normal issue to have with cast bullets?
Am I doing something wrong?
Is the seating die rubbish?

Have attached an image, ignore the different seating depths.
Can see the furtherest Right bullet has a bigger step in the tip.

Attachment 179361

Looks like the projectile is contacting the mouth of the seating stem, i have zero experience with cast stuff, but would a piece of stainless rod with a flat end be a better choice as a seating stem? More surface area contacting the nose of the projectile. I personally would get something identical to the current seating stem made up but leave it as solid bar( i hope ive translated what im trying to expalin):D

Many catridges where you use cast bullets use an expanding die after sizing prior to seating. It looks to me like the case mouth is undersized compared to the bullet and then pressure of seating is deforming the bullet.
Might be source of issue?

Need to use a die such as Lymans M die to create a .308 clearance step in the case mouth. I think Lee may do something that will do a similar job.

New brass can be hard to load with the first loading. I run an expander die thru them.

Biggest issue though is probably your seating stem. How well does it fit the tip of the very flat nosed projectile? Not very well I would say.

If you expand your case mouths with something like a M die (I usually go 20 thou deep) you can usually push the projectile in and align it reasonably well before seating. Your seating stems will not align the projectiles say like a spitzer is aligned with a standard seating stem.

Gas checks should be easier to start than straight lead based projectiles.

I use an expanding die when loading cast bullets. It flares the mouth of the case and avoids the bullet being shaved as it’s seated

Yep lee Universal expanding die is your friend bell the case mouth like you do with pistol cartridges
And a seating stem better fitted to the Bullet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beetroot

So tried to do some 300blk reloads with cast 151gr bullets today, didn't go so well......

Using Hornady "custom grade" die set with what I think is a universal 30cal seating die, the bullets have a huge step in the tip from the seating stem.
The die set came with two different seating stems (on for VLD type bullets) but both had the same effect.

The cases are unfired Hornady ones that I ran through the sizing dies.
There seemed to be a bit of resistance when seating the bullets, more than I am normally used to but ususally use a bushing die.

Is this a normal issue to have with cast bullets?
Am I doing something wrong?
Is the seating die rubbish?

Have attached an image, ignore the different seating depths.
Can see the furtherest Right bullet has a bigger step in the tip.

Attachment 179361

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As long as I've been seating cast bullets, only about 12 years, i've found some sort of marking or swaging of the bullet tip a frequent occurrence. If the base of the bullet is a tight fit and shaving is occurring then the effect on the tip is greater. So, as others have said, it is important to adequately flare the case mouth to start the bullet. Even so, using a heavy for calibre cast bullet is always going to occasion more resistance in seating the bullet. You will see the neck brass bulge to the contour of the bullet. The only way I know of avoiding what happens to the tip of the bullet is to form a seating insert to specifically fit the nose of the bullet in question. Most of my dies come equipped to seat jacketed factory bullets with spire points down to rounded soft points. Sometimes the seating stem can be swapped end for end, one end having a larger nose cup than the other. For me, this just makes the ring indentation a little larger. Frankly I ignore such a ring that occurs. Particularly if it is reasonably uniform. For my level of range and hunting use it matters not in terms of accuracy. What is happening on yours it appears is due to a wide variation in ease of seating. Again, flaring the case mouth should give you more uniformity. Another consideration is the relative hardness of your neck brass between cases. If your cases have mixed numbers of firings then the more work-hardened will give more resistance to seating resulting in greater deformation of the bullet tip. Likewise if your bullets have a noticeable variation in hardness which is less likely unless you are mixing batches. Softer ones will deform more. Your options are reasonably straightforward. You could anneal all your cases to uniform the brass hardness. You can flare case mouths all to the same amount to ease starting the bullet. You can ensure the same batch of cast bullets are used anticipating a uniform level of hardness. You can check if you are using the larger cup if your seating stem is double ended. Finally you could probably make a seating stem without much ado to provide a cup that best suits your bullet's nose profile. Maybe a flat base stem would be ok given your projectile is flat nosed. Can only try. And if your seating stem is flat one end, cupped the other, then that is the first thing I would try all else being equal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zimmer

Need to use a die such as Lymans M die to create a .308 clearance step in the case mouth. I think Lee may do something that will do a similar job.

New brass can be hard to load with the first loading. I run an expander die thru them.

Biggest issue though is probably your seating stem. How well does it fit the tip of the very flat nosed projectile? Not very well I would say.

If you expand your case mouths with something like a M die (I usually go 20 thou deep) you can usually push the projectile in and align it reasonably well before seating. Your seating stems will not align the projectiles say like a spitzer is aligned with a standard seating stem.

Gas checks should be easier to start than straight lead based projectiles.

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It does seem like the bullets are a tight fit and lack of boat tail makes starting the bullet difficult.
The gas check is a tighter fit in a fired case than what a normal copper jacket bullet is.

How does flaring work?
Do you need a different seatign die or does the flared part of the case stay flared/the rest of the neck stretches out to the same diameter as the flared section upon seating the projectile?

Measuring the gas check diameter shows it's .311" rather than .308" like my other projectiles, I guess that wont be helping either.

Hi there, for cast bullets you want that oversize as you need the bullet to fill the throat/ball seat or what ever you want to call it.
That is the important part to stop gas getting past the bullet causing gas cutting & a leaded barrel.
The barrel will sort out any sizing needed further down.
The problem you have is like the others have said, you need an M-die or similar to flare the neck & allow easier seating.
I've been making & shooting cast for 35 years so I do have quite a bit of experience with them.
Have won a lot of NZDA shoots using cast 30 cal so they are worth persevering with. Just have to have the patience to work through it with them.
Good luck.:thumbsup:

Thanks, is there any major reason to go the Lyman M vs the Lee Universal die?

They are the same price it seems, lee could be used on other cartridges in the future, but I don't plan to shoot any other cast bullets so not a huge advantage to the Lee.

I got light markings using hornady dies in 308 and very light on 7.62x39mm again hornady dies...... nothing like that last one...interesting its the one pushed in least.....give cases a plurry good champher to help projectile starting..... here is a left field suggestion....maybe TRY sitting a plastic BB /airsoft pellet in HP when seating...it SHOULD enguage the die and push projectile so prevent issue.....not a lot to loose giving it a go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beetroot

Thanks, is there any major reason to go the Lyman M vs the Lee Universal die?

They are the same price it seems, lee could be used on other cartridges in the future, but I don't plan to shoot any other cast bullets so not a huge advantage to the Lee.

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I use the Lee across several calibres. I would not bother personally with a calibre specific one if that is the Lyman.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beetroot

Thanks, is there any major reason to go the Lyman M vs the Lee Universal die?

They are the same price it seems, lee could be used on other cartridges in the future, but I don't plan to shoot any other cast bullets so not a huge advantage to the Lee.

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Although I have never used the Lee Expanding die I think it would be the better bet. I have several Lyman M dies. In 30 cal they expand a section of the neck to .308 ie put a step in it. With your gas check at .311 if an M die was used there would still be some resistance when seating into the start of the neck. The Lee die is different to the M die in that it flares the opening to whatever you need.

I see Gunworks have the Lee. Availabilty of the Lyman probably not so good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zimmer

Although I have never used the Lee Expanding die I think it would be the better bet. I have several Lyman M dies. In 30 cal they expand a section of the neck to .308 ie put a step in it. With your gas check at .311 if an M die was used there would still be some resistance when seating into the start of the neck. The Lee die is different to the M die in that it flares the opening to whatever you need.

I see Gunworks have the Lee. Availabilty of the Lyman probably not so good.

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Never used a Lyman but yeah that is quite a diff process bh the sounds of it. With the Lee, as you say, you just flare the mouth enough to get the bullet started then the bullet does any further required expanding of the neck. Why annealing can become important with cast. I loaded my first of CAC 303B, prob from 1950s, with cast. Got them in ok. 2-3 days later all the necks had split. That's when I had to learn to anneal. Never had a prob after that. Sounds like with the Lyman doing the stretching of the brass there would be a lot less pressure to seat the bullet. So less deformation of the nose.

I bough the Lee Universal expanding die.
Turns out if you flare too much the case mouths are very very tight to chamber...

Hardly need any flaring at all, I just set it so the flare was the diameter of the brass diameter after seating and it worked well.
Had a few marks from the seating stem on the projectiles but nothing major, I doubt enough to have an effect on the projectiles external ballistics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beetroot

I bough the Lee Universal expanding die.
Turns out if you flare too much the case mouths are very very tight to chamber...

Hardly need any flaring at all, I just set it so the flare was the diameter of the brass diameter after seating and it worked well.
Had a few marks from the seating stem on the projectiles but nothing major, I doubt enough to have an effect on the projectiles external ballistics.

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Excellent result.

If you flare to much they also are tight going into the seating die.
I usually crimp as well using Lee's crimp die and this makes nice fitting ammo.

good to hear you got it sorted.
why seated so deeply????
also 2nd case looks to have very crooked neck???whats with that??
looks like you using the .310 sizing stem.... I was using the .308 one without issues with same projectiles so interesting you had issues.must be just the shape of inside of die...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

good to hear you got it sorted.
why seated so deeply????
also 2nd case looks to have very crooked neck???whats with that??
looks like you using the .310 sizing stem.... I was using the .308 one without issues with same projectiles so interesting you had issues.must be just the shape of inside of die...

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I was trying to set up the seating dies and having issues finding a starting point due to the lack of flare.
Haven't seated them that deep now its all sorted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beetroot

I bough the Lee Universal expanding die.
Turns out if you flare too much the case mouths are very very tight to chamber...

Hardly need any flaring at all, I just set it so the flare was the diameter of the brass diameter after seating and it worked well.
Had a few marks from the seating stem on the projectiles but nothing major, I doubt enough to have an effect on the projectiles external ballistics.

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Nope, you flare, seat the bullet then use a crimp die to at least straighten the flare back to level, or, if a crimp is needed, to produce that crimp. You never try and chamber a cartridge with the flare still present. Or yes, you will get chambering issues

You can sometimes get away with just chamfering the case with the chamfering tool. I ended up with all of my 300 cases done this way from new, however they are all made from 223 brass.

I have a lee tool also but as you noted it can be too much if your not careful!