Load Development - Velocity vs Accuracy

Something I've been thinking about for a while now, since I started the process with the 6.5 06 and after some effort (and setbacks), Ive got the 143 gr ELD -X at around 2950 fps and grouping at about .4 - .5. Often there'll be 3 shots through almost the same hole and 2 out to the side marginally
On paper, you'd have to say that this sort of consistent accuracy is all you need right?. I mean its a dead animal out to 500yds plus any day of the week
So does it matter a rats arse if the velocity has an ES of say 40 fps, even if the target doesnt support what the chrony is saying?

a wise man once said."many a good load has been ruined by a chronograph"


let me ask you another question,which will answer your first.
IF you tested that load on paper and had only guestimated velocity with book data...would you be happy with load????? farkin oath you would be.....
go back and pull out Matt n Bruce Grants book "the sharpshooter" what was arguably the bible for hunting semi long range in the days before rangefinders and chronicgraphs were common place.....a ES of 40 wasnt so bad back then ......

Greetings Bos,
Further to what Micky has shared above I also have a question. If you have tested the load out at say 300 yards and there is no vertical stringing then I am with Micky all the way. Chronographs often spit out both extreme spread and standard deviation and these are regarded with great awe by some. Others, myself, Micky and perhaps you regard it interesting but secondary to how the rifle actually shoots. I invite you to join our club.
Regards Grandpamac.

Can I ask what barrel and length you're running in your 06?
If your not shooting past 500 have you considered going to a 130 like the scirocco or berger?
I would be frustrated with a 40fps ES because I have issues but it won't be a problem out to 500

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I used to have good accurate loads, then I bought a Chrony and it all turned to shit. Seems too much info can just confuse things sometimes.
I might start again, and leave the Chrony at home from now on.
Edit; I'm not very smart, so 'kiss' is relevant.
Edit; edit; I know enough to not confuse smart with clever.:ORLY:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings Bos,
Further to what Micky has shared above I also have a question. If you have tested the load out at say 300 yards and there is no vertical stringing then I am with Micky all the way. Chronographs often spit out both extreme spread and standard deviation and these are regarded with great awe by some. Others, myself, Micky and perhaps you regard it interesting but secondary to how the rifle actually shoots. I invite you to join our club.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Invitation wholeheartedly accepted
Being what is considered "old school", I always test a load out to 400 and even as far out as 960 if I need to. So I know how the group is perfoming on paper which must be the ultimate decider, regardless of what the chronograph says.
Technology is great but confidence in repeated bullet placement is what counts

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Originally Posted by R93

Can I ask what barrel and length you're running in your 06?
If your not shooting past 500 have you considered going to a 130 like the scirocco or berger?
I would be frustrated with a 40fps ES because I have issues but it won't be a problem out to 500

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Hardy Carbon wrap 24 inch. I hear what you're saying but sometimes ridge to ridge shots are whats needed, so whether thats 400 or 600, I'll still have a go. Those 143 Gr ELD-X's seem to be prtty brutal

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Originally Posted by Bos

Hardy Carbon wrap 24 inch. I hear what you're saying but sometimes ridge to ridge shots are whats needed, so whether thats 400 or 600, I'll still have a go. Those 143 Gr ELD-X's seem to be prtty brutal

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What powder?

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Originally Posted by R93

What powder?

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Re 22 (55Gr)

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Originally Posted by Bos

Re 22 (55Gr)

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I had a 26" and loaded for a mate with a 24" in 6.5-06
His 24" was as fast as my barrel with same load. N560 worked for us if you get a chance to try it. That is if you haven't already.
I miss my 06.

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Check your spread/grouping at 500 or 600 yards. If it’s 3-5 inch then you can forget the ES out of your chrony, and go hunting. I’ve been running RL25 in my 6506ai and getting 2930 fps with RP brass, ES <10. And 2980 fps with Norma brass but ES is up around 30-40. I settled on the RP and slightly slower speed

What kind of chronograph? If in doubt try some long range target shooting and look at the vertical spread. I have had good results with the 143 eldx in my 260. Im the same as R93 i dont think my OCD would handle that extreme spread, but for some applications it would be more than acceptable.

Out to 500m, a 40fps spread could mean max of 1.5" out = dead deer.
Out to 800m, a 40fps spread could mean max of 4" out = wounded deer.
Out to 1000m, a 40fps spread could mean max of 9" out = miss.

If you ever shoot that far
If you ever shoot deer that far
If YES, nothing beats holes in paper to confirm...

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Originally Posted by JaSa

Out to 500m, a 40fps spread could mean max of 1.5" out = dead deer.
Out to 800m, a 40fps spread could mean max of 4" out = wounded deer.
Out to 1000m, a 40fps spread could mean max of 9" out = miss.

If you ever shoot that far
If you ever shoot deer that far
If YES, nothing beats holes in paper to confirm...

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But then you need to add in the accuracy of the rifle so .4Moa-.5Moa @ 500yards plus muzzle velocity variation. still probably a dead dear.

deer not dear thats some poor spelling

If first shot always goes to point of aim and second shot very close everytime then no problem. You aren't shooting groups into animals! Second shot needs to be close as to make a hit if you stuff up the first. Chances are animal may have moved or you will be rushing before it does so you'll not be as settle as first shot anyway. If on the the other hand you are shooting long distance targets or gongs then you will probably need to address the velocity (+600yds)
So decide if you're going to be shooting deer etc or shooting groups into them. To be honest I cant see anything standing still long enough for you to do that

I've had factory ammo (on the very very rare occassion when I have bought some) give an ES of 27 fps.
One of my goals with handloading is to exceed the performance of factory ammo. A 40 fps ES would mean I should give handloading away. (No, I don't handload/reload to save money.)

And I'm still trying to come to grips with how a (good) chronograph once used, then going fwd destroys groups?? If the group is detroyed it is something the operator is doing.

I have had access to chronographs (and of course in the later years owned my own) since 1967. The one in 1967 was possibly the only one in NZ at the time. It was developed by an NZ uni professor and was nothing like we so easily use nowadays.

The chronograph is just a tool and a safety one at that, which gives you relativity against manufacturers loading charts. It has no hidden mystique, inane evil intelligence. And of course it indicates the quality of your handloading by providing numbers from which ES can be derived. It doesn't create excessive ES, or bad groups, that's up to the handloader/shooter.

well OK then I will answer that there question Mr Zimmer

Joe Bloggs has a load...lets just for arguments sake say 24.5grns of AR2206 behind a 52grn projectile in mixed brass for his .223
Joe has been using this same combination for 20 years and rifle will consistantly put all projectiles into ragged wee group somewhere between 1/2 and 1" all day everyday....animals fall over dead and Joe is happy....UNTILL Joes mate....Blowie buys a chronograph and they test Joes load and find its only going 2900fps which just isnt good enough so Joe pokes more powder in to get projectiles going 3100fps.....
see Joe WAS happy as pig in shit with what he had..... now he has mind game going on,is new load better??? is old load better??? do I need to tweak seating depth??? shit I may need a faster twist barrel to use heavy projectiles...1:8 or 1:7????? this old mini mauser wont handle that ,maybe I need to buy a new rifle????

Joe was much happier just shooting shit.
the group wasnt destroyed....Joes happiness with a perfectly good load was.
title of thread...accuracy Vs velocity.....take away the velocity bit by removing chronicgraph and its a non issue.
and 4" difference at 500 yards ISNT a wounded deer if aiming for high shoulder......its a lower chest/shoulder hit=dead deer.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

well OK then I will answer that there question Mr Zimmer

Joe Bloggs has a load...lets just for arguments sake say 24.5grns of AR2206 behind a 52grn projectile in mixed brass for his .223
Joe has been using this same combination for 20 years and rifle will consistantly put all projectiles into ragged wee group somewhere between 1/2 and 1" all day everyday....animals fall over dead and Joe is happy....UNTILL Joes mate....Blowie buys a chronograph and they test Joes load and find its only going 2900fps which just isnt good enough so Joe pokes more powder in to get projectiles going 3100fps.....
see Joe WAS happy as pig in shit with what he had..... now he has mind game going on,is new load better??? is old load better??? do I need to tweak seating depth??? shit I may need a faster twist barrel to use heavy projectiles...1:8 or 1:7????? this old mini mauser wont handle that ,maybe I need to buy a new rifle????

Joe was much happier just shooting shit.
the group wasnt destroyed....Joes happiness with a perfectly good load was.
title of thread...accuracy Vs velocity.....take away the velocity bit by removing chronicgraph and its a non issue.
and 4" difference at 500 yards ISNT a wounded deer if aiming for high shoulder......its a lower chest/shoulder hit=dead deer.

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Ah, MD, first cab off the rank eh...

You still haven't convinced me how the chronograph is to blame for that. The issue is down to Joe Bloggs not accepting his load for what it is (satisfactory for his purposes) and going off chasing the velocity demon. I have never ever chased velocity over accuracy. That all comes out of the head of Joe Bloggs, not the dumb chronograph.

I would say further, that I have developed some very accurate (evaluated at only 100 yds though) loads which had high ES. I have stopped further development of that load and gone for different powder/primer combinations.

Also keep in mind that although the hunting element is predominant in this forum, it is still a hunting and shooting forum and for many of us we are unfortunately no longer able to enjoy hunting. So shooting becomes our pastime. A satisfactory hunting load has more leeway (except for extreme long range hunting) than a load for say a PRS shooter that he may be happy with or a fullbore shooter etc. Horses for courses.

agree....and Im a bush hobbit who just doest shoot past 350 so the horse doesnt even come into my paddock.......

Greetings All,
We have now drifted into the world of Psychology. Bos is likely wondering what he started. There is no doubt that we all are effected by how we think about things and have to make our own peace with the world as we see it. We also need to keep our aim on the goal of sufficient accuracy for our purposes. A quote I remember from a pistol bulls eye shooter, whose name I have forgotten, seems appropriate.

"If you think that it helps then it does"

Regards Grandpamac.

I use n560 in 6.5-06, what chrony are you using? Are you confident in its readings? Can't really beat a piece of paper at range to confirm drop and group size (if weather will let you) 5 rounds on a target at ~500 sou d like would be a good investment

Well, GPM
Yes. Bos is thinking he's opened a can of worms here, for sure
But what you say is quite right. The morals, do's /dont's, yes's and no's we apply to our hunting and shooting is just an extension of how we are as people and this is the psychology you're referring to.
Reloading is an interesting pastime; some are anal about every little thing, some are not. Most of us fall somewhere in between, depending on the day, which is just fine.
And as far as the topic of this post is concerned; accuracy is probably a greater attribute than speed 90 per cent of the time - thats why we have dial-up scopes isn't it??

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Originally Posted by distant stalker

I use n560 in 6.5-06, what chrony are you using? Are you confident in its readings? Can't really beat a piece of paper at range to confirm drop and group size (if weather will let you) 5 rounds on a target at ~500 sou d like would be a good investment

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