Thread: Load issues (blowback) 454 Casull

hopefully you wont need to buy a whole lb.....I know gunworks were selling wee sample jars of powder for stuff all cost...think marmite 2" high and 1" fat.... bought trail boss that way twice,about 50 loads in wee jar LOL.
someone up your neighbourhood will have some to trade/sell/swap ask around and see.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

hopefully you wont need to buy a whole lb.....I know gunworks were selling wee sample jars of powder for stuff all cost...think marmite 2" high and 1" fat.... bought trail boss that way twice,about 50 loads in wee jar LOL.
someone up your neighbourhood will have some to trade/sell/swap ask around and see.

Good point, maybe I’ll start a new thread and ask. Thanks

Greetings Thatguy,
I had a scratch through an old pile of Handloader magazines and turned up an article on the 454 in 1994. The Author made 2 recommendations. First not to reduce 296 loads below start loads. Second was to apply a very firm crimp to the hotter loads. He was using a Freedom Arms revolver so the crimp could have been to stop the projectiles moving forward and jamming the cylinder or it could have been to help the powder ignite properly or both. His loads were fire cracker hot for the freedom revolver and probably excessive in your much weaker Rossi so they will not be mentioned. So one thing that you could try, if you haven't already is a firm roll crimp. Zimmer mentioned this in his post although in his case it did not help. This will need a projectile with a crimp groove. Your seating or crimp die should be able to do this. I should point out that I have zero practical experience in loading pistol cartridges but am an insatiable reader of the Handloader articles.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings Thatguy,
I had a scratch through an old pile of Handloader magazines and turned up an article on the 454 in 1994. The Author made 2 recommendations. First not to reduce 296 loads below start loads. Second was to apply a very firm crimp to the hotter loads. He was using a Freedom Arms revolver so the crimp could have been to stop the projectiles moving forward and jamming the cylinder or it could have been to help the powder ignite properly or both. His loads were fire cracker hot for the freedom revolver and probably excessive in your much weaker Rossi so they will not be mentioned. So one thing that you could try, if you haven't already is a firm roll crimp. Zimmer mentioned this in his post although in his case it did not help. This will need a projectile with a crimp groove. Your seating or crimp die should be able to do this. I should point out that I have zero practical experience in loading pistol cartridges but am an insatiable reader of the Handloader articles.
Regards Grandpamac.

Thanks again. I would need to change projectiles to one with a crimp groove as I’m unable to crimp mine anymore without damaging the brass and bullet.

In the meantime, I’m picking up some lil gun from another member to try. Will maybe circle back to 296 on another day with magnum primers, different projectile and heavier crimp.

As far as load was concerned, I was already at max 28.5gr.

@7mmwsm

Greetings yet again Thatguy,
A bit more fossicking turned up a couple of old Winchester reloading components pamphlets. The latter recommended the standard Winchester small rifle primer and referred to the following warning.

Warning For 296 Powder.
Loads using 296 powder require heavy bullet pull (heavy crimp). Using 296 powder with a light bullet pull (light crimp) may result in squib loads and cause damage to the firearm, shooter and or bystanders.

Winchester also does not give any starting loads for 296. Their max loads are also considerably higher than the current Hodgdon data. Lil gun may be a better option but you may still need a crimp for best results.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings yet again Thatguy,
A bit more fossicking turned up a couple of old Winchester reloading components pamphlets. The latter recommended the standard Winchester small rifle primer and referred to the following warning.

Warning For 296 Powder.
Loads using 296 powder require heavy bullet pull (heavy crimp). Using 296 powder with a light bullet pull (light crimp) may result in squib loads and cause damage to the firearm, shooter and or bystanders.

Winchester also does not give any starting loads for 296. Their max loads are also considerably higher than the current Hodgdon data. Lil gun may be a better option but you may still need a crimp for best results.
Regards Grandpamac.

Thanks for confirming that. Wonder what sort of load they would recommend?

Originally Posted by thatguy

Thanks for confirming that. Wonder what sort of load they would recommend?

Google it. There's lots of info (use at your discretion). It's quite a minefield of info.

I did see one at 35.5 gr Lil'gun. Cannot remember projectile weight.

Originally Posted by thatguy

Thanks for confirming that. Wonder what sort of load they would recommend?

Greetings Again,
I am not sure what projectile you are using as you just say RNFP. The maximum load you quote is for the 250 grain Barnes X projectile. These are solid copper alloy and are very hard. This requires a considerable reduction in powder charge. If you are using a lead core projectile then you would be better to use the Hodgdon data for the 260 grain Freedom Arms projectile which gives a low load of 34 grains of 296. So if you are using a lead core projectile your loads are 5.5 grains under the minimum load. This is dangerous country and I suggest that if you have any unfired loads that you not fire them and pull the projectiles to make them safe.

If you go to Lil gun Hodgdon has loads that approach the 296 loads at much lower pressure. Your Rossi is a derivative of the Winchester 92 and may be marginal in strength compared to the revolver that the data was developed for so Lil gun may be your best choice. The start load for the lead cored 260 grain of 33.4 grains of Lil gun giving 1,744 fps in their test barrel would be a good place to start. This is more velocity than you are likely getting from your current load.
Feel free to ask any questions.
Grandpamac.

grandpamac......tell you something for nothing is case of similar size...trailboss gives HIGHER pressure than other powders for similar velocity...I checked the data four times and yip its still the same.
lil gun worked great for me in both the .410 and the 7.62x39mm

Hi all, tried some new loads on the weekend. Now Lil’Gun with 240gr Hornsby XTPs. With the lighter bullet I was able to load 35-38gr powder, which fills the case up. That did the trick and getting no more blowback, a lot more recoil suggesting proper ignition and case expansion.

3 shots touching out of 5 shot group, at 50yards (using red dot sight for tight bush hunting).
I’ll work on the loads a bit more but keen to see what these XTPs do at the 2000fps it should be going at.
Thanks @MSL for the powder and others for the advise.

Originally Posted by thatguy

Hi all, tried some new loads on the weekend. Now Lil’Gun with 240gr Hornsby XTPs. With the lighter bullet I was able to load 35-38gr powder, which fills the case up. That did the trick and getting no more blowback, a lot more recoil suggesting proper ignition and case expansion.

3 shots touching out of 5 shot group, at 50yards (using red dot sight for tight bush hunting).
I’ll work on the loads a bit more but keen to see what these XTPs do at the 2000fps it should be going at.
Thanks @MSL for the powder and others for the advise.

*Hornady XTPs

@grandpamac, something interesting I just observed from Hodgdon website, which is what I use for data.

For Winchester 296 you can load:
36-38.2gr - with 240gr bullet.
26-28gr - with 250gr bullet.
34-36gr - with 260gr bullet.

I find it strange that the load is so light with a 250gr bullet, but then jumps up again with 260gr bullet. Is it a typo? What does your reloading data say for a 250gr bullet?

I wonder if this is why I had issue - being way under charge....

Sooting of cases is common if you are using a suppressor and nothing to worry about. I have found Winchester ball powders to be very clean burning generally in non-suppressed firearms.

Originally Posted by thatguy

@grandpamac, something interesting I just observed from Hodgdon website, which is what I use for data.

For Winchester 296 you can load:
36-38.2gr - with 240gr bullet.
26-28gr - with 250gr bullet.
34-36gr - with 260gr bullet.

I find it strange that the load is so light with a 250gr bullet, but then jumps up again with 260gr bullet. Is it a typo? What does your reloading data say for a 250gr bullet?

I wonder if this is why I had issue - being way under charge....

Greetings Thatguy,
The reason for the low 250 grain load is the hard projectile that Hodgdon is using in their data. Winchester gave loads of 34 and 36 grains for a 260 grain jacketed soft point and suggested it not be reduced due the possibility of squib loads. The differences are solely due to the hardness of the projectile. If and only if your 250 grain projectile is a softer jacketed type like the JSP you can work up to the loads for the 260 grain. These days projectile of the same weight but different construction often need quite different loads. You might like to go back and re read my earlier posts.
Regards Grandpamac.