Which is louder, a 12 or 410 bore.

I have to ask because although I have a couple of 12's, I have never encountered a 410.

BACKGROUND
I am about to declare war on the increasing plague of blackbirds who have decimated my orchard this season but I want to keep the noise level down as low as possible. It is rural farm land and neighbours are not too close nor likely to be upset, but there is a large commercial garden scenario with public attending and buying on site so,,,,,,,,,,

I do not own a 410 nor have any 410 reloading ability. I Do own a 12 bore and can reload.... with ADI Powder AP 70N

I have a .22 but do not want to use either that nor purchase an air rifle because of the proximity of the plastic houses in the commercial gardens. I doubt that the 12 bore would reach the plastic houses.

QUERY

The shooting distance would not exceed 30 metres and I am having to decide if a smaller powder load with say 8 /9 shot in the 12 bore would be more or less

a.... Loud and / or
b ...effective

than a 410.

Wotcha fink? Suggestions of 12 bore loads also appreciated.

Thank You.

Yeah bird shot ya gotta be pretty close. Be good to do it at nighttime n spotlight there roosting tree.


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What about a 20 gauge? I'm tossing up between 410 or 20 as want something with less kick than a 12.

I saw a second hand suppressed .410 on a shop rack not that long ago, was told it was very very quwiet

I found this info

I found this at a site on hearing loss:

SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)
.410 Bore, 28" barrel 150dB
.410 Bore, 26" barrel 150.25dB
.410 Bore, 18" barrel 156.30dB

20 Gauge, 28" barrel 152.50dB
20 Gauge, 22" barrel 154.75dB
Data: freehearingtest.com

Remember sound pressure levels measured in DB use a logarithmic scale. The 2.5 dB increase, w/ 28" barrels, from a .410 to 20 is significantly more than a linear interpretation of 1.6% might lead one to believe.
zippy13 is offline

From Here It is from 2011 though

3dB is only "slightly louder". You need 10dB to double the loudness but bear in mind those proportions are more relevant to your more std sound levels.

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Originally Posted by Happy Jack

I found this info....SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)
.410 Bore, 28" barrel 150dB
.410 Bore, 26" barrel 150.25dB
.410 Bore, 18" barrel 156.30dB

...........From Here It is from 2011 though

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and using a "copy and paste" from your post, ( thank you) I found this, https://tinyurl.com/ycadz9ao which I think may be where it all came from.....

".410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB. 26" barrel 150.25dB. 18" barrel 156.30dB.
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB. 22" barrel 154.75dB.
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB. 26" barrel 156.10dB. 18" barrel 161.50dB."

SO as my Laurona is a 28 ", then if I am to believe the "data" the noise difference is not substantial, which suggests that I should use the 12 bore.

As all I know about modern powder shotgun loads can be written on the head of a pin and still leave room for "The Lord's prayer," is is possible that reducing the powder and shot ratio load would reduce the noise? After all the shooting range is less than 30 metres.

I have been looking at clay loads https://tinyurl.com/yc2d2buq

#8	Bird/Clay	1.09 grains	0.09	2.29
#8½	Bird/Clay	0.97 grains	0.085	2.16
#9	Bird/Clay	0.75 grains	0.08	2.03

which are defined as using 8 / 9 shot. Any load suggestions for a smaller powder (ADI AP 70 N) and 8/9 shot load?

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Originally Posted by berg243

air rifle something around 700fps and flat head pellets with a scope zeroed for this distance...

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Than you but not an op.tion.

In same barrel length, the difference is academic. Both are loud. You get silencers for 12gg and 410, but I'd just go for a silenced .22 or a reasonable .177 slug gun. From a contamination point if view, you'd be discharging a lot less lead than with your 12gg. Trust me, you don't want to have to quantify and explain the high levels of lead in soil when you subdivide one day.

I use .410 on the starlings and bloody sparrows this year that decided to try and nest in my chimney.
I think they are quieter than the 12ga.
I know that is pretty subjective but they are a little banger versus a bigger one.

.410 is MUCH quieter....much much quieter its a weird sound,the nearest I can get to desribing them is like shooting down a drain pipe....the ultimate quietness is a .410 adaptor in .12ga barrel because ALL the explosion bit happins inside barrel,no flame muzzle blast at all. recoil is next to zero and for under 30 yards a 1/2oz load of #9s should be fine.
possums up trees do not like .410s at all....
now .12ga loads arent all equal either.....you could easily load up some 9s at reduced levels...the reduced recoil load dats will work and because there is less powder there is less bang...the modern ASteel powder is VERY VERY loud....my reloads using it were heaps harsher than factory fodder.
I will look up load data from lyman manual for you if you need it.

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Originally Posted by Bol Tackshin

.............I'd just go for a silenced .22 or a reasonable .177 slug gun..

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Thank you but not an option.

bugger....no data for that powder in my lyman manual...ADI will have data in website.......now my experience with shotgun loads is limited (you know what tech the gear is) Ive found a load near enough to same is good enough...I wont load over what data I find but changing components,eg wads that are similar seems to be ok...and steel loads will be a hell of alot higher pressure than what you are looking at.

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Originally Posted by Happy Jack

What about a 20 gauge? I'm tossing up between 410 or 20 as want something with less kick than a 12.

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dont do it.......for that reason...just change what loads you are using.a .20ga with 1 1/4oz will boot just as much if not more than the 12 with same....more because gun will probably be lighter...and bore being smaller means its a longer column of shot so could be argued has to be pushed harder to achieve the same velocity for payload.
clay loads in .12ga dont kick,low recoil loads dont boot....even lighter payload steel loads kick WAAAAY less than heavy ones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

.410 is MUCH quieter....much much quieter .....................the ultimate quietness is a .410 adaptor in .12ga barrel ..................I will look up load data from lyman manual for you if you need it.

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I had considered a 410 adapter for a 12 ga but observed that the one example on Trade Me last night was more expensive than a brand new 410 single shot shotgun. :>) and my Laurona is an o/u so I would need two >:(

I appreciate your offer to check the Lyman Manual, however, as I have an unopened 500 grm of ADI AP 70 N, I do not want to have to use another powder, nor to go to a heavier shot than 8 just for blackbirds / avian pests. . But, if any subsonic 12 ga loads with 8 / 9 shot exist, I would be very grateful if you can pm me.
Thank You.

you WONT need to go heavier shot....a payload is a payload reguardless of shot size...you MAY need to add a little filler like cork/carboard to fill wad height correctly.
will have dig around and find out what I can suss out.the issue with subsonic is those pellets arent going to pack much punch when they hit.

Same barrel length, 12g much louder

I have shot a mate's 410 which is permanently suppressed and it is damn quiet - if he were to sell it I would buy in a heartbeat

Bloody long thing, mind

I bought these Falcon Subsonics a couple years ago to use on possums around the house. They are very quiet compared to a regular hunting load.
No longer listed on Falcon's website but have seen Eley Subsonic in an unmentionable chain store.

Attachment 140700

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

.....................you MAY need to add a little filler like cork/carboard to fill wad height correctly.
will have dig around and find out what I can suss out.the issue with subsonic is those pellets arent going to pack much punch when they hit.

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I'm using these https://tinyurl.com/yb6zccs9 for the Black powder 12 bore and they can be "cut to length", so no problem with filling.

As for "punch", because the targets are these Attachment 140702

not these:
Attachment 140701

and the general distance will be 20, max 30 metres, I don't anticipate a problem >)

Thank you for the offer of the "dig around" re subsonic assistance.

Target products cowboy action 12 gauge loads would be exactly what you want quiet light and already made.

so....7/8ths is oh just so much betterer than 6/8ths??????? read that again untill it sinks in....... there are a lot of #9s in 6/8ths of an once.

well lets just say Ive shot a shit load of rounds from wee .410s over the years,with the wee gun its all about range n choke. shot column is an interesting one,matters not a hoot on stationary target/2 demention but on flying one if its short and you spot on alll good,if its long and your lead is wrong it MAY actually help you. at 20-30 yards...yeah nah not an issue.

Thanks guys good point on the shot column, being a rifle shooter the shotgun is a whole different science !

I was hoping to use my 8 bore on a few Ducks but I'm told I can't shoot Game Birds with it ?

Have been using a 28g recently around the house a mate lent me as I was talking .410 & it is nice to use .

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Originally Posted by mimms2

Point of order: 12 is a gauge, .410 is a calibre.

You can down-load 12. You still have muzzle blast to deal with (ie, want a supressor) but that's for personal comfort, anyone at a distance will just hear a whump.

.410 is good but at 30y you're pushing it, keep in mind you're only sending 1/2-3/4oz down range compared to 12ga 7/8-1 1/2+
(May be able to choke .410 out, I havent had a good play with it)

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Thank you. As I mentioned, I know diddley squat about shotgun loads so load weights would be helpful.

Having been put into a state of "utter befuddlement" because of replies to my query on shot gun "sizing" I made on another site about a shotgun bore gauge............ Umm how about I use 12 bore from now on..........or "Gauge?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

As an aside, you might find it useful to "train" your blackbirds to be more helpful regarding which trees they decide to attack. We've had a massive issue with rosellas in the past, similar environment with lots of trees in close proximity to stuff that goes crumple/shatter/or high pitched ahhhhh oh my god someone's shooting!!!!...............

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We had in Jaffasville nad one of my greatest delights was to get two with one shotgun blast.... I do use and collect cd/ dvds but was unaware of the fine mono net to create scarecrows. Good idea thank you

Interesting thread.

Interesting also there isnt much sound difference between a .410 and 12 gauge. We shot .410s for years in the cheery orchard when I was a kid, never wore ear protection, didnt think they were all that loud. Maybe thats why my ears are constantly buzzing now.

to further confusdicate you sapper.....the term .12ga or .20ga or 4 ga etc etc comes from the number of BORE DIAMETRE balls of pure lead to the lb......so a four guage chucked 1/4POUND of lead every time you pulled the trigger...... and to make matters worserer still.alot of modern .12ga shotguns actually ARENT .12ga as such anymore.....they have closer to 10ga barrels...back bored etc etc are fancy terms to say barrel diameter is larger than standard...and russian barrels are tighter than english.....eg my single bakail reads 1/4 choke all the way down the bore...well it does 3" back from where old muzzle was before Mr Hacksaw took the choke off....the SxS that got sent into backyard gunsmith/engineer got similar treatment except he was suposed to stop taking thin slices off end of barrel when he got back to 1/4 choke...but as he didnt know barrel was tight to begin with he removed all choke and still hadnt got to right diametre he THOUGHT he shold be at....so when someone says a bakail has over full choke...its not....its got same AMOUNT of constriction,but it starts out tighter so ends up tighter/smaller hole in end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

to further confusdicate you sapper.....the term .12ga or .20ga or 4 ga etc etc comes from the number of BORE DIAMETRE balls of pure lead to the lb......so a four guage chucked 1/4POUND of lead every time you pulled the trigger...... and to make matters worserer still.alot of modern .12ga shotguns actually ARENT .12ga as such anymore.....they have closer to 10ga barrels...back bored etc etc are fancy terms to say barrel diameter is larger than standard...and russian barrels are tighter than english.....eg my single bakail reads 1/4 choke all the way down the bore...well it does 3" back from where old muzzle was before Mr Hacksaw took the choke off....the SxS that got sent into backyard gunsmith/engineer got similar treatment except he was suposed to stop taking thin slices off end of barrel when he got back to 1/4 choke...but as he didnt know barrel was tight to begin with he removed all choke and still hadnt got to right diametre he THOUGHT he shold be at....so when someone says a bakail has over full choke...its not....its got same AMOUNT of constriction,but it starts out tighter so ends up tighter/smaller hole in end.

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Attachment 140748

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tommy

I saw a second hand suppressed .410 on a shop rack not that long ago, was told it was very very quwiet

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I have a friend with one
very quiet, very cool

Quote:

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Originally Posted by berg243

a real quiet option is make an air cannon and load it with size 8 shot...............

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Attachment 140751

Quote:

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Originally Posted by berg243

this is my one for fishing. something like this with a slightly smaller barrel should work ......

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If I understand the concept, the trigger is the ball valve handle. As it will not "action instantly" as when depressing a trigger, I am surprised that the the airflow is immediate and strong enough.
It must require good wadding and perhaps not such a long "barrel" ?

bird roofies....there is thread on it here somewhere....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

bird roofies....there is thread on it here somewhere....

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Not sure if you are referring to ALPHACHLORALOSE PASTE which puts them to sleep if they eat it or the sticky stuff which discourages them from landing on the branch / building as their feet stick to it. Either one, neither are suitable for my orchard.

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

Or there's the non-lethal "environmentally friendly" versions which come at staggering cost.

Bird scaring pistols, shell crackers, gas guns, remote controlled hawks, and the blow up waving-arms figures.....

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Damn........I knew that I shouldn't have thrown out all those inflatable ladies ,
Attachment 140901
just 'cos they developed a leak or went "bang". ....Isn't that just the way,, You never want things you save for years, 'cos "they will come in handy one day " until a week after you throw them out.

https://gunworks.co.nz/shop/item/sup...tgun-sold-out-

Here you go, job done.