A learned forum member was explaining to me earlier this week that neck tension variations will do this
Printable View
A learned forum member was explaining to me earlier this week that neck tension variations will do this
The new brass is annealed from factory and then I full length size it all so it is as consistent as it can be. I didn't notice any inconsistencies with the amount of force required to seat projectiles and it is something I pay particular attention too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
I don't think this is the issue, I am leaning towards the heavier brass theory. Will load up some more tomorrow an see how I get on
Have you tried necking the case down to .277 then sticking a new barrel on to suit?
It's 2021 now I think it has to be 6.5mm to become betererQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
Well range time is precious and nothing gives good consistent data like a comprehensive ladder test....Hopefully
I have loaded another ladder test with the Starline brass from 57gn to 59.1gn in .3gn increments Hopefully this will give me some better data and results
Attachment 182361
After what can only be described as an incredibly frustrating session at the range plagued by chrono issues there may be at last progress.
I had big issues getting the chrono to work properly so much so that the lower end of my ladder was pretty much useless.
I kept getting bogus readings (literally 1000fps out low) and error messages, accuracy seemed to be inconsistent and I was starting to get really pissed off and contemplated packing up and calling it quits for the day :pissed off:
Finally about half way up my ladder the chrono seemed to be cooperating and the groups for the most part started to show some promise.
Unfortunately I still got some errors on my 2 best groups which meant I could only calculate E.S from 2 rounds on both but the velocities were consistent with charges of the same or very close to the same weight yesterday with the Starline brass.
As far as consistent E.S goes this combo certainly has a sweet spot around 59gn
I need to load a few more up and try get some more data and hopefully similar groups, I note that the P.O.I from yesterday's 59gn group is consistent with todays 59.1n group and also the velocity is about right too considering the charge weight is.1gn more.
Anyway I'll load up pics shortly of the top half of the ladder. Hopefully ge a few more loaded today and get back to the range this afternoon.
57.9gn
Attachment 182394
58.2 only 2 shots registered over the chrono
Attachment 182395
58.5gn dunno what happened here but nothing good
Attachment 182396
58.8gn only 2 shots read over the chrono
Attachment 182397
59.1gn the sweet spot.....Hopefully. again only 2 shots read over the chrono
Attachment 182398
If 59.1 is repeatable you've nailed it.
It has though seemed to get better as you've got faster...Hmmm
humour me if you will good sir.....get blank bit of paper and transpher ALL you shots onto it..... still a very dead deer LMFAO.....
looks like you have her dialed in.....
That's a big if.....:psychotic:Quote:
Originally Posted by jakewire
I'm gonna load up 10 or 12 at that weight and shoot a couple groups and see what happens
I know what your getting at MD and yup inside 300 yards pretty much any of the consistent E.S loads will do, I often shoot well past 300 yards though and it starts to matter a lot more the further out you go. I just want to be sure for those occasions and to have confidence that my rifle and load are consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
LOL.....it will show new to reloaders.....and new to shooters ...that sometimes things arent as bad as may first look.
stoked you having such good results after so little effort...relatively speaking.
Ive only fired 2 rounds of .22lr today...but two hares came home for dog tucker .
YupQuote:
Originally Posted by dannyb
and you've had the 59.3 which wasn't too bad either
I couldn't help myself, I'd load 4 at 59.5 as well , you know, just to see.... just in case :)
Too late I've loaded up my confirmation rounds, off to the range either later today or tomorrowQuote:
Originally Posted by jakewire
More confusion...
Loaded up 12 rounds
Shot 2 foulers and then 2x 5 shot groups
Attachment 182407
Attachment 182408
The velocity has increased to 2760fps with an E.S of 18fps that's a 30fps increase on this mornings loads of the same weight.
I'm starting to wonder if my scales are on the piss.
The accuracy was good and even though the second group opened up a little the barrel was pretty warm after 12 shots.
My Lyman gen 6 has a tendency to drift a little .1-.2 of a gn but I keep an eye on it and dump any charge if the scale drifts.
Starting to make me wonder if it is the culprit, I always let it warm up for at least an hour before using it and I'm getting good E.S just the velocity seems to jump around from batch to batch...
Not like I can go out and buy a chargemaster currently but if anyone local has 1 I can use to test my theory I'd be very grateful, likewise if anyone is selling I'd be very interested ;)
so......are shots grouped together sequential ??? or is it random.....EG did you get the three close together,then the 2
the 2,the 2 and single???
throw a projectile on scales..note its weight...then weigh it multiple times again over time...will soon tell you if scales vary...but seriously .1-.2 of a grain SHOULDNT be your issue.....
I can nearly guarantee that if you are using an optical chronograph you will get a range in data. E.g it might be precise but not accurate. Also a 3 shot group doesn't give you meaningful es data in my opinion.
Also 30fps is like a 1% error in range. You will have larger error with the setup of chronograph each time. Remember its only reading over a very short distance between the censors
.1 .2 of a grain shouldn't make any difference at all in a 60grn case if you are in the middle of a node.
Hence why I loaded up 12 rounds, I just don't understand how the 3 rounds I loaded to the same charge weight this morning were 30fps slower than the 12 rounds I loaded this afternoon.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerazziSC3
2730fps vs 2760fps
Am I worrying about nothing or is there something else going on here ?
There was no P.O.I shift from this morning to this afternoon other than I adjusted the scope 4 clicks left.
And yes optical chrono (caldwell if it matters)
Also an ES of 18fps over 12x shots is pretty good. 9 fps either side doesn't make f all difference
Precision vs accuracy. The never ending battle with optical chronographs (im assuming you are using one).Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyb
You are worried about nothing, assuming you are happy with the accuracy.
Just lock the load in and check drop at range
The second group was shot immediately after the first group and the 2 foulers (7 rounds in total), I noted it was shooting a little left and checked the barrel (it was pretty warm so let it cool down a bit then shoot the other 3 that are closer together and more centered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
The 30fps from morning to afternoon will almost certainly be the chrony, changed light conditions or if you re set it up will do that easy.
This is why we validate drop at range.
sorry I didnt ask that right.....I see 10 holes...so 2x5 shots BUT THERE are clusters of shots on both targets...did the shots make clusters...or was it one here,one there,another here then another there...
top target has 1/2" group x2 OR a 5 shot 1 1/8th" group less than 1" wide
bottom target has 2x 1/4" groups plus a single no mates or group 1" high and 1 1/2" wide
can you see what Im asking now????
I reckon you need to do the Ryan Songhurst patented rifle accuracy testing method and go out and buy a box of federal blue box and check if it can actually stack rounds consistently to begin with before chasing it round and round on paper with varying results. Often I think someone shoots one ok-ish 3 shot group, they may even get two ok-ish with a given load and think they're on the money and then a spanner gets thrown in the works and the rifle stops shooting that load as well or inconsistent data comes back. I think it's strange that it can throw a real big group then only a few tenths later it's on the money and it may actually just be fluking it or such a small node it's always going to be inconsistent short of having 110% reliable data and being able to duplicate that load precisely which the average reloader just won't be able to do. You're dealing with a brand new rifle also and brand new rifles often do silly things for the first couple hundred rounds untill the barrel settles down.
I think the best node for a hunting rifle is the one that's very forgiving and can go half a grain either way without getting too far out of whack and there's no point chasing a load that opens up if you go .3gr either side of it
Yeah the shots that are close together were consecutive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
AND that tells us what???? normally......
what does group stringing vertically USUALLY mean?
what does group stringing horozontally USUALLY mean?
and for a coconut....
what does double grouping NORMALLY/USUALLY mean????
double check the bedding/screw tension
and Mr Sonhurst is 100% right........same as I said redo your sako brass load that was really good...use it as your baseline/check for "sumfin else"playing up.
It shoots sako factory ammo real well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
I think I'm going ok but really need to validate the velocity with something better/more reliably consistent than the optical chrono.
With both the 59 and 59.1gn load I can shoot consistent really good 3 shot groups and have done on 3 different days now.
The varying velocity given by the optical chrono is driving me nuts though, the e.s is always good but the velocities change every time I set the chrono up.
Should have never sold my magnetospeed, I may have to borrow one off a mate to finally get good velocity data.
Never had this issue with magnetospeed and I'm way too poor for a labradar :oh noes:
You can use my labradar if you want. I use it bugger all so you can have it for as long as you want, until I want it back :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyb
Legend Jock :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by PerazziSC3
Just plug it into shoooter and shoot at range then if any variance adjust velocity in app till matches real world results.Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyb
Make sure your zero is absolutely bang on for center and distance first tho.
you are answering your own questions without even knowing it...can shoot 3 shot groups.......... so shoot 3...let it cool and shoot another 3 and call it 6 shot group...MAYBE barrel heats up and causes group to shift...loads of rifles do this.
you can shoot......faaarkin well too....you dont fire more than 3 shots when you are hunting do you????? go on be honest....nah you dont on deer/chammy so having rifle that shoots 1/2" 3 shot groups happily is no problem...you can do it consistantly...you said so.... so do so and be happy,all this component usage is curdling my Scottish blood...LOL.
oh and what was it confusus said???? many a great load has been ruined by a ............
Yup think I need to load 6 more.
Shoot 2x 3 shot groups over the lab radar both from cold bore, see whats what and hopefully call it done
Cheers guys, Jock is coming round tomorrow with his Labradar we shall see what is what :thumbsup:
Well big thanks to @PerazziSC3
Thank you Jock for taking time out of your weekend to help me get this sorted and finally put a few issues to bed that have had me chasing my tail.
Last night I loaded up another 9 rounds at the magic zone 59.1gn
Jock came out with his Labradar to confirm or disprove the velocity discrepancies I was having once and for all.
Once the labradar was all set up, Jock put a few rounds down range with his very nice R93 just to make sure everything was set up right.
Then it was my turn with the Lupo, no pressure not like a profess to be a good marksman :ORLY:
I shot 3x 3 round groups at the same target letting the rifle cool down between each group.
The last 3 round group was shot over both the optical chrono and Jocks labradar for side by side comparison.
Unsurprisingly whilst the optical chrono gave consistent results they were also consistently about 25fps higher than the labradar.
This appears to be the main cause of my misery and frustration, whilst the optical chrono was certainly good at giving me consistent results to work out where my best E.S was the speed indicated on any given day or each time it was set up was only an indication, basically each time I set it up the speed could and did vary depending on lighting, weather, if the chrono was slightly skewed etc etc.
So I guess your all wondering how I got on.....
I shot a 9 round group of 1.6 inches and an E.S of 26fps confirmed avrrage velocity at 2698fps
I'm bloody pleased with that, job done time to load up some hunting ammo and put some venni in the freezer.
Attachment 182434
Also worth noting that each individual 3 shot group was well under MOA and the double group pictured above is indicative of getting up moving around letting the rifle cool down then re setting between each 3 shot group.
well write that load down on the wall with a big fat black vivid felt pen...and FFS stick to it as closely as you can........
well done that man,stoked you finally got it sorted/are happy LOL.
YOUR TARGET ALSO CONFIRMS what I speculated on last night....awesome 3 shot groups.....go forth and be happy happy hunter Mate.
