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So I shot my first ladder test today.
Some promising results with one load looking like a goer.
This load is half a grain below book max. Can some of you more experienced loaders tell me if the primers look ok it are they getting too flat?
Attachment 168296
Attachment 168297
Groups shot
Attachment 168298
Best load is second column from the left.
[GLOW]Attachment 168299[/GLOW]
I don't see any flat primers and your 27 grain load look great.
Looks fine. I quite often find as you increase the charge the group tightens up. I would be inclined to find out what near max is first, you will start seeing an extractor imprint on the head of the brass and the bolt will become tighter to lift. At this point or just before is generally when the magic starts happening.
Stated book maximum is only a guide as some rifles may reach this a lot earlier and the manufacturer needs to cover there arse. Its not unusual for a good load to be a couple of grains over.
It's great to ask others on here if they are using the same combo you want to use so to give a guide.
Enjoy
@Remmodel7, welcome to the wonderful world of reloading.
Your primers look fine, the outer edges are still nice and round.
Primers are not really a very good indication of pressure. Quite often due to poor headspace, the bottom of the case slams back into the bolt face, resulting in what looks like flat primers, but there is no real pressure issue with the load.
The other thing that catches people out is that guys will see "cratered firing pin strike" when in fact it is nothing more than an oversized firing pin hole in the bolt face.
The thing I use that is a real indicator of pressure is heavy/sticky bolt lift.
Greetings Remmodel7,Quote:
Originally Posted by Remmodel7
As a first time load developer I suggest that you load a small batch at 27 grains and go hunting with it. You can test other loads later. If you can get your load chronographed you can then compare your velocity with your load data (adjusting for barrel length) to see if your components match theirs. This will give an indication of pressure. Gazing at the fired primers will tell you nothing other than one load may be hotter than another and possibly not even that. Ejector marks on the case head tell you that you have gone too far already for your brass. Additionally one three shot group tells you little about the long term accuracy of a load. The average of three groups of three shots each will tell you more. One last thing buy yourself a decent load manual for the projectiles or powder that you use. Some of the older ones from around 30 years ago are good as well. Treat everything you read on the internet including U tube with suspicion unless verified by the load development sections of the manual.
Periodically someone on the forum blows up a rifle due to an overload. The honest ones own up to it, the others perhaps not. Go slowly and make sure you don't go down that road. Happy to answer questions. The Grendel is a great cartridge, wish I had one.
Regards Grandpamac.
Lots of potential showing there...nice work.
Solid work, Let the addiction begin!
There is one piece of brass there, middle row 3rd that has an ejector Mark. Probably no biggie as those around it all look fine.
Keep an eye on signs like that though.
Good luck
Cheers for the help guys.
My load is for the 6.5 Grendel in a howa mini.
123gr eldm 2.280” ( mag length so not sure how far off the lands)
27gr bench mark 2
I think I will load up a few more of the 27 gr loads. I don't have a Chrono but can work it out using applied ballistics although I can't get my es using this.
If I'm happy with the velocity I may leave it at that otherwise I'll keep going up
faark you have good eyes..but yip you are correct,there is one there clear as day....Quote:
Originally Posted by Noswal
Don't worry about velocity just work on the accuracy work up a few 10ths of a grain and see it the accuracy improves or not, then shoot in at 200m and 300m
you can work out the velocity by the drop you get,
I am at Tokoroa if you want to chronograph your load we can go to the TSSC on a weekday if you like, Visitor Fee is $10 for the day
Cheers
Robert.
Notice there is one other case in the 27gr row that has ejector mark too. Think I will just stick around there for a few more loads. I'll shoot a few more groups and shoot at range to work out drop and velocity
Beg, borrow, or buy a chronograph. Without it you’re loading in the dark. As far as I’m aware velocity is the closest approximation to pressure we have. With traditional pressure signs you won’t know if you’re actually over pressure or it’s something else. And when you do see them you’ll could be in excess of 70kpsi. Even with traditional load data you won’t know if you rifle is running under/over pressure or the burn rate on the powder has changed from when the data was published.
@Remmodel7 if you haven't decapping those cases yet could you stick up a photo of them.7Quote:
Originally Posted by Remmodel7
Another indicator that you may be pushing the envelop is loosening primer pockets after only a few firings. This can happen without the extractor wipe or ejector plunger ring appearing. A warning nevertheless.
Primer pockets can be quite tight when the cases are new and will loosen up a bit after firing. If however the primers become super easy to seat there may be a pressure issue.
Otherwise, as stated, try and chrony your loads and compare against a couple of reloading manuals. Taking into account your barrel length.
Also, as pointed out, sadly one 3 shot "group" does not constitute game over. I only ever fire 3 shot strings at the early stages of load development and that is to get a feel for velocities. A series of 5 shot groups is my method. With the strings with progressive increases of charge many times I have jumped a charge and gone to the next charge up because I know the velocities are so low and don't wish to waste components. Those loads come home and are stripped.
I am not a huge fan of ladder testing. Old habits/methods are hard to quit.
Yes realize one group is not definitive but I have to start somewhere. Plan on loading a few more, Checking velocity and looking for pressure signs at that load.Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmer
How do people calculate velocity change compared to book data from a 26" barrel in the load data to my 20” barrel?
You can lose 30fps average per inch loss of barrel. But it varies and can be more or less. A chrono is the best way as too many variables in play between the book and your rifle/shooting circumstances.
Greetings Remmodel7,Quote:
Originally Posted by Remmodel7
I have not found ejector hole marks all that reliable as an indicator of pressure. There can be a slightly rough edge around the hole that makes a mark at normal velocities. Another rifle may show no mark, or any of the other "pressure signs" but expand the case head beyond further use with one shot. I've seen both. In the second case the claim was really good velocity with no pressure signs. Old data that had not been pressure tested was a culprit here as well. Velocity is easily the best indication of pressure that can be used by handloaders. Actual tests of velocity loss v barrel length reduction have shown 20 to 30 fps loss per inch for standard calibres with the smallest cases losing the least. I would figure on 20 fps per inch for your Grendel. Hodgdon/ADI book data for the Grendel is for a 24" barrel so 80 fps would be right.
Regards Grandpamac.
Don't get me wrong, you've made a good start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remmodel7
What projectile are you using?
If you're willing to divulge your load I'll run the numbers thru Quickload.
@Remmodel7 - you better change you name to "Alice" cause you just fell down the rabbit hole! lots of us down here, we even have our own song: "who the fuck is Alice" (points for getting the reference)
@zimmer that would be choice. All data is on the first page half way down. 20” barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmer
@grandpamac.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandpamac
Yes sorry 24” from adi book. From the top of my head I think max load was 2460fps so I'm guessing I should be in the high 2300?
Was hoping for better then that.
I had read that the Grendel being such a short case burns all it's powder and Max velocities can be reached from as little as a 14" barrel.
Ideally I want to use 8208 as my powder but as you will all know it's bloody hard to find anything at the moment. Or if you do in the car of powder get it to you.
Doh, apologies, missed that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remmodel7
Greetings Again Remmodel7,Quote:
Originally Posted by Remmodel7
Max was 27.5 grains of Benchmark for 2,460 fps. You are 0.5 grains below that. Calculating the velocity per grain using the start and max loads gives 94 fps per grain gives 47 fps loss. About the only cartridge that gives max velocity with a 14 inch barrel is the .22 Long Rifle RF so you will loose velocity from the 20 inch barrel. 4 inches at 20 fps per inch (a conservative estimate) gives another 80 fps loss gives a corrected velocity of around 2,330 fps for 27 grains and around 2,380 fps for 27.5 grains. Whoever said max velocities could be achieved in a 14 inch barrel must have a degree in wish full thinking. Only a chronograph will tell you the truth. If you want more velocity a lighter projectile would be needed. Around 2,400 fps with a 123 grain pill is a pretty decent load though.
Regards Grandpamac.
You can borrow my chrony if you want
@Remmodel7 Unfortunately my version of Quickload doesn't have the 123 ELD-M, only 123 gr A-Max and 123 gr SST.
I don't have a Hornady manual so didn't know the expected velocity.
Hodgdon and ADI only list loads for the 123 gr Sierra HPBT. When I tried to replicate their loads in Quickload it gave much higher velocities than either the Hodgdon or ADI data.
That's unfortunately the nature of Quickload. Sometimes its spot on other times you have to frig with it to match your real world results with the results displayed in QL.
Using the 123 gr A-Max (SST gave very similar results) the pressure for a 26 gr load of BM2 is predicted to be 48923 psi versus the Pmax for the cartridge of 52000 psi. Again, because I have no Hornady manual the predicted velocity was not able to be compared to the manual velocity.
The calculated velocity drop for a 20" barrel over a 24" barrel is 86 fps (123 gr A-Max).
yes its right up there with a 7.62x39mm LMFAO.......Quote:
Originally Posted by grandpamac
Don't forget the forum has chronographs for use in both North and South Islands. I have the SI one waiting to go to whoever needs it. I think @EFriz was hoping to collect it from me.
The Hornady Manual Edition Ten has 27.1 of Benchmark max at 2450fps in a 18"barrel the top velocity is 31.2 CFE223Quote:
Originally Posted by Remmodel7
This from the Hodgdons site,https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/rel...2C9694%2C10068
So I went out for a bit of a quick sight in yesterday as there was a possibility of a hunt today.
Only had a brief time during lunch so got myself zeroed
Attachment 168779
Black tape was aiming point.
Next put in 2400 as velocity and shot at 300yards.
Attachment 168780
A bit low so used applied ballistics to calculate velocity.
Came out at 2389fps.
Shot out to 400
Attachment 168784
There was a slight cross wind that I didn't allow for.
Pretty happy with the results so far.
Agreed. Compared to your overall investment in reloading equipment, a budget model chrony is not an expensive addition to your setup, but one of the most essential. I’m not alone in the opinion that you can’t safely load to maximum without comparing actual velocities alongside reloading manual information and other available data, such as brass inspection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnetite
https://www.brownells.com/shooting-a...rod122616.aspx
When I say you can’t safely load to max, technically you can, I probably should say shouldn’t, or that’s it’s less advisable as a practice... just so it doesn’t spark contentious debate lol
Attachment 169438
Tested the hand loads last night. 140yds quartering away shot.
Entry wound
Attachment 169439
Seem to work ok
That’s not much more than an inch group (albeit only 2 shots) at 400 yards, so getting around.3 MOA, whjich is good by any measure. Seems accurate enough to drop a stag, which is what it’s ultimately about. Good work :thumbsup:
Empty case says 6.5 G :DQuote:
Originally Posted by mimms2
