So as the title asks...is neck turning worth doing to the brass and just how much effect does it have on accuracy compared to not doing ?
Any thoughts ?
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So as the title asks...is neck turning worth doing to the brass and just how much effect does it have on accuracy compared to not doing ?
Any thoughts ?
Pandora's box :P
Like most things, the answer is "it depends"...
If you want to eke out the last bit of accuracy and precision, then neck tension is the holy grail, and turning does help with consistent neck tension.
Do you batch weigh your brass ?
Do you anneal ?
Do you uniform your flash holes ?
Do you trim ?
Do you batch weigh your projectiles ?
Do you clean and tumble your brass ?
Probably a whole heap of other stuff I'm yet to learn about :D
It all makes a difference but how far fown the rabbit hole do you wanna go ?
What's your end goal ?
If I can get consistent 1/2" groups without doing most of the above I'm pretty happy but I load for hunting not competition.
Greetings Ftx325,
Not generally thought to be a good idea on factory chambers. Makes a loose neck fit even looser. Only called for if the rifle has a tight neck chamber. These are cut that way by the gunsmith so the brass can be turned to get a precise fit. Buying decent quality brass is a much better idea. Sometimes if brass is necked down, especially if the shoulder is set back so the shoulder forms part of the neck, it may be needed. I have struck this twice in 40 years and was solved by a change in brass make.
Regards Grandpamac.
As you all may know I am learning the art of reloading for the 338 and my boss who is a keen long range competition shooter has taken me under his wing.Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyb
As a comp man he has me doing things to my brass I had no idea was required or even possible.
As I write this I am currently resting my hands from neck turning 40 odd of 150 ish cases and also reaming off the flash hole scrag internally. And yes I will apparently be annealing the brass along with several other things.
And after seeing the amount of brass in the container catching the offcuts from the turning I am feeling a little nervous as to whether it is really necessary and worth doing....
I have not seen anyone else mention this procedure or any reloading you tube vids that mentioned it so was curious to know if others do it and whether it actually makes a difference in performance. And it's a hunting rifle which kinda seems a little over the top going to this extent if no real benefits.
I remember doing it with my fingers, hundreds of rounds till 2am to shoot the next day. Bruised fingers and carry on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftx325
Get a drill adapter or something, anything, mechanical.
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Unless your using bushing dies or a tight neck chamber, i wouldn't bother.
I'm having to neck turn my hornady brass in the 300prc, bushing die with inconsistent neck thickness.
Is this just for hunting ammo ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftx325
If so at most I would suggest.
De cap
Clean primer pockets
Anneal (more important for big magnums)
Clean/ tumble if you like post cleaning
Full length size
Trim
Chamfer
And load those bitches up
Others may have other ideas but that is the most I would do for hunting ammo.
It's all I do and for a long time I didn't even do half of that when I started with my 270win.
I use bushing dies and always turn my necks with a K&M turner. I just skim the necks to take high points off and give consistent thickness. Even with Lapua brass there is up to 1.5 thou neck thickness variation. I bump the shoulders to uniform the neck/shoulder junction before turning. I then turn a touch into the shoulder.
Is it worth it? I think so for me, but most would say no. It takes very little time and is easy to do.
I'm using the federal brass I kept from my 250 gr hunting rounds and after measuring the brass and especially after seeing how much brass is being removed during the neck turning process and the vast majority of that from just one side of the neck I am starting to realize how much variation there is from one case to the next even if all the same rounds , from the same box even.
I am certainly starting to understand why reloading can have the potential to improve accuracy simply through consistency , let alone load development....
I never would have thought there would be so much difference from case to case.
These are about the cheapest 338 rounds to begin with but still....
Yeah, well up until the buy back the largest I had owned was a 308 . But I guess the 338 and 45/70 were my way of saying "oh really... we'll see about that" after having my 'to powerful' 223 taken from me... and I have grown to love them both.Quote:
Originally Posted by mimms2
Out of curiosity how accurate are the factory rounds ? That will tell you a lot about how necessary the other stuff is :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftx325
this is just my opinion but if i were you id just concentrate on making basic ammunition and testing it in your rifle first. you may not need to bother with neck turning. Id just use good brass uniform the primer holes and experiment with different wieghts of powder and seating depth
you need to trim to length and debur inside and out first...... but if your reloading guru who is teaching you says to do so...it would be downright rude to not do so while still under his tutorage.... did you ever work out what caused the dings on sized case being chambered??? maybe part of reason he is suggesting it for your rifle.
WHEN you buy LEE case length trimmer you will have handy gizmo to hold base that goes in cordless drill......lots of jobs are much easier then....
Well they are considered to be plinking rounds....Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyb
That's not an easy question to answer. On good days I could put three hurried shots into less than an inch. Two weeks later I couldn't hit a 300 mm plate at 400 mtrs. A month after that I walked rounds out to a km at targets 600 mm square at 200 mtr intervals and got 4 out of 4 on the km plate.
The biggest problem I think is most likely me when it comes to accuracy and being consistent in shouldering the rifle. Being full carbon it weighs about the same as a standard hunting rifle and jumps around which makes life interesting. It shoots alot better from the bipod I have discovered. Whenever I rest it on a sandbag it bounces all over the place under recoil.
But hunting every round I have shot has gone exactly where I wanted it to out to 600+ mtrs.
I seem to shoot better when it counts for some reason....
Hi Micky... pleased to hear from you again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
I'm certainly not going to turn down his help , you are right there. Just seems a bit over the top what he is saying to do , but being a comp shooter I guess he wants to do as much as possible for accuracy and consistency.
And he told me if you want to learn , learn how it's done properly then decide what you want to do or not after you know the full process.... and you can't argue with that logic.....
I really appreciate his helping me out and I am trying to take in as much as possible . I am also lucky he has the appropriate tools for 338 as he shoots a 338 edge so I am counting my blessings there also .
And as for the denting still not conclusive but the boss thinks something to do with ejection of the case. I won't worry to much about that until all the brass is done and sized and will cycle a few through then and see what happens.
If you're just going for gongs then i think this may be past yhe point of diminishing returns for you. But if you're hunting for a .2" reduction in your 100m groups then this can help
I do it on all my brass, including unmentionable 243 range finds. I get bored you see
so far I have only turned .308 cases, it made a measurable improvement. I probably would not bother for a hunting rifle. I was blown away how irregular my Hornady brass was- I have yet to do my Lapua cases but I'm hoping they leave less shavings
I know what conclusion I would be drawing from that :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftx325
At the end of the day it's hunting ammo, I don't believe all the extra steps are necessary.
You will no doubt benefit from the extra trigger time loading affords you but personally I don't think neck turning is somewhere you need to be.
If you were consistently getting 1/2" groups and wanted to cut that down to 1/4" groups maybe I would suggest all the other steps mentioned in my earlier reply but even then it comes down to the shooter and the rifle.
It won't do you any harm to learn but I think when it comes to loading your own rounds at home on your gear it will just be more stuff you need to buy :pacman:
I hear ya danny. I pointed that out to my mentor but his argument was anything that can potentially reduce group size and improve accuracy , particularly hunting at longer ranges, has to be a good thing , and I can't really argue with that logic either .Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyb
And as you say more trigger time will be beneficial for me too and the cost of factory rounds has been a limiting factor there , so hopefully reloading will make the ammo side costs drop off so as I'm not counting every dollar when I cycle one into the chamber. At 7 dollars a round for the ' cheap ' federal I was using that becomes a big number very quickly.....
And I don't think it's all me... I am not the greatest shot in the world by any means but have been shooting for nearly 30 years so not exactly a newbie either... I do think the rounds are a contributing factor also.
I guess in a weeks when I start firing off a few reloads we will see.....
Trust me you wont save a cent you'll just shoot more but that's not a bad thing :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ftx325
In reality you need to be shooting consistently (not just when it counts) before you'll see any benefit at the end of the day your call.
I also learnt a fair bit from a comp shooter ( both loading and shooting) but even he says so much is unnecessary for hunting ammo and he doesn't bother doing it for hunting ammo.
He's right in that doing everything possible has got to help. That's one way of looking at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftx325
The other way is that guns are a dark art and something that is meant to help sometimes has the opposite effect, so everything must be tested.
There's a cascading series of improvements. Major influences are things like powder charge, powder type, projectile type, primer type etc. These give big percentage changes.
The the percentage changes get smaller and smaller and at some point you decide the cut off.
Some people just love to fiddle. Me personally I like reloading but I have 700 cases in my favorite chambering and I'm just pleased to be finished when loading them.
A lot of it is a tedious waste of time and some things are counter productive.
The "do everything because it might help" position means your mentor is basically a masochist. These disturbed individuals just love to reload. The more steps the better.
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That last sentence is the kicker.Quote:
Originally Posted by hamsav
I started shooting a thousand rounds of cheap factory 223 on paper, even though its crappy ammo.
Shoot a crappy load a lot and you can still tighten it up.
The rifle/primer had very long lock time so shooting technique with that rifle/ammo/scope gave heaps of room for improvement. Selling it was even better.
Minute of Dead Thing is actually pretty big. 2" groups are fine for hunting to 300m
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Ah, the old "putting your time into trigger time" whilst is non arguable trigger time for me is weekends so nothing wrong with practicing the best reloading techniques, in preperation, during the week.
Crap ammo is always crap ammo no matter how much trigger time.
And good trigger time is getting out the humble 22 and firing off bricks off hand.
Oh, and I neck turn, where appropriate.
I always stick to.. if you can shoot crap ammo ok it can only get better.
Nah...you might get better, the ammo never will.
I don't waste my time with crap ammo, but what I call crap ammo may be perfectly ok for others.
I think the thing is I have always used my rifles for hunting/shooting at live targets. From possum shooting and paid pest controller at a nursery nailing rabbits and hares , often with on the run headshots , but never been one to go to the range and just shoot except for sighting in a scope.
I find hunting to be my natural environment for shooting and I think instincts take over when you take a shot under that kind of situation. And I don't shoot unless I am confident of a good hit and very rarely have I lost a wounded animal.
Now I know I am pretty good shot with a 22 from my pest control days but I took the lad to an indoor 22 rifle club for a play and I was taking my time with the shots as the gentleman was suggesting and was shooting decidedly averagely. Then I just completely ignored the fact I was at a range and stopped thinking about what I was doing and second guessing every shot and just shot the rifle and started shooting 9 and 10 every shot until my eyes started crapping out. I got told off for not taking my time and shooting to fast but showed I am more accurate if I just point and pull the trigger than spend all day thinking about it. And I believe it is more natural for me that way as that is how i've always shot.
Does that make sense to anyone ?
Yep ive seen some wierd techniques but different things work for different people
Also used to neck turn for a standard 308 chambering.
Read somewhere that the cheap and cheerful Lee collect Neck die, can regulate neck thickness, never measured that, but rounds shoot quarter inch, concentricity is excellent with the lee die and I have use Redding S neck bushing dies, which I sold with the neck turner. Keeping it simple.
Was my statement too cryptic for you? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by hamsav
It is exactly the same for me, could be a reactive-muscle-memory thing maybe ? Moment I over-think it, it turns to custardQuote:
Originally Posted by Ftx325
Anybody that neck turns a hunting rifle is either a F class shooter that can't help themselves or a hunter that reads just enough information to be dangerous.
Do not neck turn a hunting rifle period!
Agree. Unless your a highly competitive benchrest shoot why bother
Why bother cleaning cases, uniforming flash holes, trimming necks, sizing cases, accurately measuring powder, precisely seating primers, selecting a primer, powder, projectile combo your rifle likes, etc, etc? Because they all add up to more accurate shooting.
Aside from the the basics, I feel there is no better way to improve accuracy and consistency than neck turning and bushing dies. Yes, possibly only small improvements, but if someone wants to do it and feels it’s worth the minimal effort, good luck to them.
It doesn't hurt to clean up the necks. It improves accuracy and maybe only removes .001-2" off the fat side of the case. If you continue loading lopsided cases you introduce more and more runout. So It still applies to hunting rifles imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taupohunter
Ive never met an actual benchrest shooter but shooting beyond 700m at an NRA club your ammo has to be as consistant as you can make it.
Well my mentor is both of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taupohunter
He has explained the reason for turning which makes sense to me and as my rifle is for long range hunting and he has the gear to do it I have done all but thirty rounds. The last thirty I have left unturned as an experiment to see if it does have a noticable impact on accuracy at longer ranges and it will be interesting to see just how much effect it has. Probably no more than any inherent variation from my shooting but only one way to find out....
Very interesting comments on here though , and if it was for short range bush rifle I agree there wouldn't be much point in doing it . But for longer ranges I guess every little thing that you can do is worth doing as it must all add up in the end to make a difference , otherwise why not just use factory rounds full stop and save all the time and expense making your own....?
All depends how addicted to shooting you've become. If the shelves are bare then you're down to making 'pew pew' noises. Im now shooting bullets i had my nose turned up at 6 months ago :D
No. Not worth it. I have a Hornady concentricity tool to make sure the bullets are centered - I don't think that makes much difference either.
Correct name should be Concentricity Tool And Consistant Neck Tension Destroyer :P
I considered outside neck turning but realised that unless your chamber was of tight minimum dimensions, it would be pointless because the shoulder bumped / resised cartridge would be centered off the shoulder anyway. I went the route of inside neck reaming only if a donut developed but in addition and / or regardless of that; now always ensure consistent neck alignment and internal even diameter by use of Lee collet neck dies. Annealing will add a little more consistency to neck "tension" on the projectile as well and I anneal brass after around 7th reload.