Thread: Old reloading data

Hi all, I have a few boxes of reloads that I loaded back in the 80s and 90s, last box dated in 2000 that were loaded for my 1900 m96 Swedish Mauser. The load is 41 grains 2208 120 Sierra or Speer projectile, cci primer in norma cases. This load was supposed to be a mild load back then,but now modern data list 39 grains as maximum. Has the burning rate of adi powders changed since then or have they reduced the load data to accommodate these aging firearms? I fired off a few rounds a few months ago without any pressure signs, however we fired off some previously on a 40 degree day and the bolt was tight to open on 2 rounds. The ammo was sitting in the sun so would have been very hot. Interested to hear your thoughts regards steve

Greetings @Steverusty,
The Hodgdon/ ADI data is held to a lower pressure due to perceived weaknesses in the M96 action, mostly the lack of a third safety lug. Whether this is justified is open to discussion. AR2208 is a non temp sensitive powder so it may not have been the hot ammo that gave the hard bolt lift. In any case it is not a good idea to leave ammo lying in the sun at any time. The Hodgdon/ ADI data is held down to around 45,000 CUP and it would be wise to stick to that in a 120 plus year old rifle. 30 years ago I fired some pretty hot loads in my M38 6.5, about 2 grains over max with current data. Would I do it today? No. 2 more grains will give you around 100 fps additional velocity. AR2209 has become faster than it was 30 years ago but I have not heard of any change with AR2208.
Regards Grandpamac.

Gday @grandpamac would you pull the projectiles and reduce the load? Not really a problem to do. Thanks Steve

Originally Posted by Steverusty

Gday @grandpamac would you pull the projectiles and reduce the load? Not really a problem to do. Thanks Steve

Greetings @Steverusty,
For me I would but I have become more cautious over the years. John Barsness in one of his articles wrote that it took an additional two grains of powder over the Hodgdon loads to reach the same pressure and velocity as the .260 Rem. I also crunched the numbers on the pressure and the 41 grain load should be developing around 50,000 CUP. Fine in a new rifle but borderline for one as old as yours. An old load from 1985 in the Mulwex data pamphlet lists 42 grains of AR2208 as max. Nosler still lists 41 grains of AR2208/ Varget as max with the 120 grain BT.
One thing I have found with US made FL sizing dies for the 6.5x55 is that they set the shoulder back too far so you might want to adjust your die so the cases just chamber. I got a comparator recently and thought this was the vintage Lyman dies I was using but a new Redding set did much the same thing.
All the best and Regards Grandpamac.

Speer #14 manual cites max 36grains varget for 120gr spitz sp coal 3.000". MV 2603'/s and 24" bbl. Rem brass, which I found similar capacity to norma. Cci200 primer.

Greetings again,
Load data for the 6.5x55 is all over the map. Speer in its No14 manual offered two sets of data, A lighter set for the army rifles and what were supposed to be high pressure loads for stronger actions. About 2011 a second 6.5x55, a Tikka T3 Lite, snuck into my gun safe. As usual for a new rifle all the data I could find was rounded up which I found was all over the place. Some target velocities were calculated based on data for the .260 Rem and case capacities and using some rules that John Barsness had dreamed up some years back. from this and some chronographing it appeared that for AR2208 the supposedly high pressure speer data was more like the medium pressure data in the Hodgdons on line manual. Along the way it was discovered that AR2209 (H4350) had been sped up around 2,000,
Getting back to AR2208 and the 120 grain projectile the 39 grain load giving around 2,800 fps should develop about 45,000 CUP and 36 grains giving a little over 2600 fps should develop a little under 40,000 CUP. This is in line with the velocity recorded by @Woody and interpolated from the Hodgdon data. In short I would not use any load that chronographs over 2,800 fps with the 120 grain in a barrel of 24 inches or more. Velocity is a better indication of pressure than the grains of powder used as I found out with AR2209.
Regards Grandpamac.

no two rifles or chambers are the same..whats safe in one may blow up the next....
start low..work your way up slowly...either 1/2 or 1 grn at a time depeding on how big of case your talking....
a long throat and loose bore will be less pressure than a short throat and tight bore.... so you load according to what YOUR rifle likes...and the only way to find that out safely.....start low and work your way up

old data...new data...mates data..internet data....paper manual data.... at all times try to find 2 if not 3 sets of hard data to confirm what you are going to do then......start lower and work your way up
I hate using up components on paper but with new rifle will still
start lower and work my way up
once you KNOW what your rifle likes/tolerates
you can then make an educated guess as to where on spectrum of a new load your rifle will be happy then you....yip you guessed it
start lower and work your way up.
you dont need to load ten at each load level..1-2-3 is heaps enough... when yo ustart to get pressure signs..or if using chronicgraph..hit higher than expected velocity...stop and pull rest of loads hotter than where you got up to..then drop down a notch and be reasonably happy you are in safe pressure zone..with luck either that load or one slightly below it will have also been a reasonably close group... two birds with one stone sort of deal.
to recap....start low and work your way up.

Greetings All,
This is likely a good time to relate, perhaps re relate, some excitement I inflicted on myself while working up a load for my T3 6.5. I had gathered up all the 6.5x55 data I could find and found it conflicting and some of it very light. John Barsness had recently published his article on The Rules. One of these is that possible velocity increases at 25% of case capacity. After about two pages of calculations I arrived at the conclusion that the 129 grain SST projectile should be able to be driven at around 2,850 fps at the same max pressures as the .260 Rem. A conservative target of 2800 fps was set. There was chronographed data using 45 grains of AR2209 that gave 2,700 fps with the 129 grain SST in my rifle. Stocks of AR2209 were running low so a new canister was purchased and a test load load of 46 grains was chronographed, expecting about 2,750 fps. The chronograph read 2,860 fps. Oops. Further testing showed that current AR2209 is considerably faster than my two previous lots that were manufactured prior to about 2002. These days I routinely chronograph each new lot of powder and thus far have not found significant differences.
The other thing that is often ignored is projectile construction. Recently 129 grain Long Range Accubonds and 129 grain Interlocks with the same powder charge in a 6.5-06. The Accubond LR projectiles produced 100 fps more velocity indicating significantly higher pressure. This explained some of the differences in data I had been pondering over.
Regards Grandpamac.

just as well you started low and worked up then wasnt it...LOL

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

just as well you started low and worked up then wasnt it...LOL

I thought I was but had not factored in the big increase in powder speed. Good thing I didn't change to the long range Accubonds at the same time. That's the good thing about handloading, there is always something new to learn.
Regards Grandpamac.