Thread: overlap between cartridges

This particular one has come up a few times as of late and a discussion with fellow forumite this morning really brought it to the fore.

with the advent of fast twist barrels in some common cartridges allowing much heavier projectiles to be used they almost jump up a bracket in whats expected of them...in particular the fast twist .223 using projectiles 65-80grains.... thats getting into .243 territory all be it at slower speed..... and where does that leave the likes of the 6x45???? dead in the water some might say
there is little the fatter bore can do the skinnier one cant
same argument has gone on forever.
.308w with a 110grn pill for reduced recoil = a .243 pretty jolly nearly and a .270w loaded with 100-110grn projectiles is in same territory but uses more powder to achieve the same thing.and the 25-06 too to some degree
you can always download a bigger cartridge to do what a smaller one will do,but cant always crank smaller one up to match the big boys. the 6.5 thread touched on this rather well
so I guess my point is this

WHY would you now want to rebarrel to something like the 6x45 when you can do pretty much the same thing with a std fast twist .223 with a LOT less mucking around and still have option to run off the shelf ammunition???
other than the why my dog licks its bits answer,I cant think of one
there have been many cartridges created in last few years to run through the AR platform..but if you remove that platform from equasion the cartridge offers sweet fack all that the run of the mill,older cartridges dont already have covered,and if going down custom or rebarrel route where twist rates can be tweaked,the older jobbies arguably stack up better still
with the push for monolithic projectiles we may see need in future for light for calibre to get velocity up..... but same deal still applies,the bigger /older case may do it better.
ramble over,interested to hear your thoughts and experiences

I guess its the same as why do we have different brands of cars. They pretty much all do the same thing. Personal choice, dont like change etc. I never really think about caliber overlap and tend to lean towards the old school cals. Thinking about it now theres a severe overlap with my collection.

Greetings @Micky Duck and @blip,
The reason we have so may new and near duplicate cartridges is because new and different sells. Very few of the new wonder cartridges that have sprouted like weeds over the last few decades offer anything much over older cartridges. In the US the reluctance to use faster twists in existing cartridges has also been a factor until recently. The reason that the US has produced so many cartridges that more or less duplicate continental loadings of older cartridges is a chronic disdain for things not invented in the US. The gaps between cartridges has become so wafer thin, if it exists at all, that most Wildcats produce fail to produce any improvement unless they are loaded to eye watering pressures. I sometimes talk of an "a what" cartridge. This is where the proud owner announces the chambering of his latest bang stick (and possibly mumbling a bit) to which his audience replies "A what?"
Regards Grandpamac.

sort of like the 7x57 and the rigby thing then??? LOL

[QUOTE=Micky Duck;1467332]

From my perspective much of the faster twist rate phenomenon relates to shooting heavier, longer, high BC bullets at very looooong range. A lot of these bullets aren't hunting bullets but are highly accurate, slippery missiles optimised for hitting steel or paper with great reliability way out there. Often these are launched from rifles bearing only superficial resemblence to typical hunting rifles.
I sort of agree with your argument that smaller calibres able to shoot heavier bullets via faster Twist Rate barrels may be a close match for the next cartridge or two up the calibre table but optimal performance may be possible only with bullets specifically for long range shots, and not optimised for killing game. In my mind at least I see two different scenarios. One is the assortment old, standard, proven hunting cartridges, still plugging away and downing game at distances as far as typical guys can confidently shoot, and these cartridges holding their own despite all the recent newcomers crowding into the available market space. The other scenario is all the new fangled cartridge offerings that kinda matches up with all the new techno gadgetry that supports all the current fascination with ultra long range shooting. Personally I'm not into this side of things but don't knock it. There are benefits. Creative manufacturers successfully stimulate market hype that keeps the whole industry rolling along and that's a good thing. Without the high level of user participation we wouldn't have the endless range of product availability ( primers the current exception ) at reasonable costs that we do today that allows many joe average guys to also participate without bankrupting themselves to do so. I would say we shooters have never had it as good as we have over the last 20 years probably.
Another thing happening as an offshoot of the very high BC long range bullet development is that the design concept is being seen more and more in pure hunting bullets ( actually maybe this has been happening for a while ) that are flattening the flight path trajectory of the older designs. My own experience with a couple of the ELD-X bullets ( not necessarily a pure hunting bullet ) is I found it easier and faster working up good handloads for hunting. I realise manufacturing tolerances probably contributes here also.
I'm not worried about the older, well established and proven cartridges disappearing any time soon. Many now are the stuff of legend and have been doing the job of hunting well and reliably. And often, loaded with new powders and bullets they take a step up in performance. On the other hand several of the newer cartridges are likely to disappear as has already happened with a few. I guess the 6.5 Creedmoor is a big exception but it had heaps of support in ammo availability and different manufacturers rifles, different manufacturers reloading componentry so it was easy for joe shooter to get on board. Not every new cartridge has been similarly supported which will doom some to the rubbish bin of history.

The answer is, and will always be, the same. Because you can.

It's an interesting discussion. Especially around what cartridges have the biggest range of application, something to think about if your budget limits you to one or two rifles. .270 win as you mentioned @mickey Duck can go down to a 100 grain varmint load for wallabies & goats, or up to 150/160 grain high-BC for longer ranges and heavier-bodied game. That's why it was my first rifle, but was replaced with a 7WSM when I was gifted a .243 due to the overlap you mention.

I'd be interested to know what it is about these cartridges that make them more versatile... longer/skinnier cases? Necked down a bit from the original? Certain 'sweet spots' of calibres that seem to work with a wider range of weight?

Love a bit of overlap that way yuo have everything covered twice

Good thread : it does seem that alot of the newer hunters with the advent of the internet clips & podcasts of all the "new " calibres : get caught up in the hype of " 50 fps faster " here & "1.5 inches flatter at 500m " there .... Americans are sooo good at hyping up a tiny difference to sell " bigger,better, faster , must have" new rifles that need new ammo, new scopes & rings , new reloading dies .
Otherwise ; how else do you get gun owners that probably have 6+ guns each to buy more gear?

Originally Posted by Gibo

The answer is, and will always be, the same. Because you can.

thats what my dog said.....

When the PPC cartridges came out and started winning everything it dawned on shooters that case design and not just capacity made a huge difference to consistent accuracy. The modern cartridges are all inherently more accurate than their older contemporaries 6XC, 6.5x47, 6.5 Creed, - 300 Norma Mag as examples

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

sort of like the 7x57 and the rigby thing then??? LOL

Exactly.

But people are weird about calibres anyway. I know someeone who rubbishes my .303 as being gutless, and raves about the power of his .300 Blackout....

its been said that the .222remington was so popular with meat hunters and cullers here because it was so much lighter and was so much more accurate that the run of the mill other big cartridge rifles of the time..... I never really worked out what the writers who said this meant...I mean surely the factory ammunition and rifles werent that bad..... then just the other day having a look in my older Nosler manual there was page on using the simple reloading tools ...the LEE whackamole in particular... I recal reading it before but never took too much notice of the photos.....
the group size would have Dannyb in tears....... if that was the NORMAL expectation...and Ive read it in many places it was..... no wonder the wee trebly looked so darn attractive... these new skids on the jock dont have it so easy as things have been pretty sharp for last 30 years by comparison...