Thread: +p ammo

Your only starting to get going velocity wise, this is from the adi manual they gave 3 levels of load ole actions, 1895 lever and single shot. Or manageable, very stout and ring the chiropractor.
I have a trapdoor and to be honest a 405 grain lump of lead at .22 velocities is pretty emphatic at the short ranges I use it at.

@Pommy .. yeah mate.. that’s why I started this thread… there are a plethora of blokes on here ,,very knowledgeable about how this stuff works… that’s why I’m asking…it becomes knowledge for all of us … other than some of the biased comments from Neanderthals…

yip the three levels have been there forever...you plus P loads are simply factory loads for the top tier guns and in the lawsuit crazy USA its about he only way they could possibly market a load that wont be safe in a old rifle....
same deal with a .12ga solid round.....we all know they rattle down a cylinder bore and accuracy can be improved by making them slightly fatter or pushing then hard enough to open base..obsureate or some such.... so why not make them fatter to begin with??BECAUSE if Noddy Jones fires them in grandads full choke gun he may well injure himself..so the ammunition makers HAVE to make it safe for all chokes/guns
you wouldnt fire a 3 1/2" load in a 2 1/2" gun it wont fit but its perfectly safe to do it the other way around..the extra length is not only great for higher payload its a safeguard.
I guess the old 45/70 45/90 45/110 loads are directly comparable???....... if you could fit a 45/110 charge of nitro in a 45/70 case you MIGHT get away with it in a really strong action but sure would know you had touched it off.
good luck with these,hopefully they work fine and you handle extra whallop ok.....a slip on recoil pad is possibly not silly idea.
I dont like recoil just for the sake of it....hopefully you will be fine.

Originally Posted by Pommy

Yeah I've never heard of any such thing as 45/70 +P.

As akaroa1 says, there's already multiple tiers of 45/70 data. If trapdoor loads are the baseline, then lever action loads are already +P and Ruger No1 loads are +P+. There's overlap between those tiers too with reloading.

So what exactly are they on about saying "+P"? What kinda pressures are they generating and where does that fit in on the scale? Rather than making stuff up, why not stick with the commonly accepted nomenclature and say something much clearer like "only safe for Ruger No1 or equivalent strength modern actions"?

looking at the manual...a 350 at just over 2000fps is top of bottom teir so hot enough to cause issues in old weak action but should be fine in anything modern..but we all know each rifle is different...

+P loads are simply a way to get more performance out of a given chambering. If the firearm can handle the additional pressure, and the load is accurate enough, then why not? My daily carry load for .357 Mag in South Africa was a +P load for a very lightweight projectile (NGA Eliminator). It dealt out rifle-like shock on anything soft, because of the high velocity. It was spectacular to see what it did to milk bottles full of water. Now it isn't everyone's cup of tea, so each to their own. There are people that will ditch a rifle in favour of a "better" calibre, so why not stretch the operational envelope of your existing firearm?

Not a sales gimmick, standard SAAMI spec ammo for 45-70 is kept below 28000psi, to avoid damage to old trapdoor rifles. The +P loads are simply loaded to full potential ie, marlin levergun 40000psi pressure. Differences between the 2 are huge, as a hunting round full power loads are the way to go as long as they're accurate.

Thanks!!

Originally Posted by Bol Tackshin

+P loads are simply a way to get more performance out of a given chambering. If the firearm can handle the additional pressure, and the load is accurate enough, then why not? My daily carry load for .357 Mag in South Africa was a +P load for a very lightweight projectile (NGA Eliminator). It dealt out rifle-like shock on anything soft, because of the high velocity. It was spectacular to see what it did to milk bottles full of water. Now it isn't everyone's cup of tea, so each to their own. There are people that will ditch a rifle in favour of a "better" calibre, so why not stretch the operational envelope of your existing firearm?

Yeah it's a pretty well standardized with many pistol cartridges e.g. 45ACP has a limit of 21,000PSI and 45ACP +P is has limit of 23,000PSI.

There is 257 Roberts (54,000PSI) and 257 Roberts +P (58,000PSI). And people obviously wring the piss out of 6.5x55 in Tikkas these days (although that's not one that's standardized as far as I know). Besides that, "+P'ing" is not really a thing with rifle rounds as they already have much higher pressures than even the spiciest NATO spec 9mm or full house 357's already.

There's nothing saying you cannot stretch the envelope with a 45/70 besides your tolerance to recoil and the strength of the gun. But it already has three tiers to indicate how spicy the rounds are to cater for this. So saying "+P" in the context of 45/70 is a bit redundant and confusing as to what it actually means. +P trapdoor 45/70? Is that like a standard or even a -P lever gun load?? Why not just say "lever gun only"?

What is a Trapdoor rifle?

January 2020. In firearms, a trapdoor is a form of breech-loading mechanism for rifles in which a hinged breechblock rotates up and forward, resembling the movement of a trapdoor. The Springfield models 1865 and 1873 were best known for first employing this type of action.

I did not know this!

my .45/70 is a barrel insert in a .12ga shotgun so I keep loads down to top of trapdoor levels...the recoil if go above that, is rather intense in light single barrel gun...in saying that,once insert is in, it isnt what you would call lightweight.
I tried faster loads but the flinch came back in spades...back loads off and its nice to shoot..and having eyes open and not yanking trigger just has to be better for accuracy LOL.
SUGGESTION for you.....if both loads shoot to similar POI you could top load one of one sort with mag of others..... potent one first with milder for fast follow ups or other way around...mild load that you will shoot well followed by horse power for if that grizzly getting closer yeah right!!!
always thought one of the bakail SxS in .45/70 would be ultimate bush rifle....good accurate load in whatever barrel shoots closest to sights and something a bit milder in other barrel for close up or finishing off.
please let us know how you get on with these loads,be interesting to know.

Originally Posted by A330driver

What is a Trapdoor rifle?

January 2020. In firearms, a trapdoor is a form of breech-loading mechanism for rifles in which a hinged breechblock rotates up and forward, resembling the movement of a trapdoor. The Springfield models 1865 and 1873 were best known for first employing this type of action.

I did not know this!

Trapdoor closed, trapdoor open.
1884 model, made in 1890. The Americans hung on long after other nations had moved on to what had been a conversion system for muzzle loaders. The British pretty quickly moved on from the snider which was similar in principle.

Reminds me of the " Buffalo Bore" ammo people used for Bear defence, it was hard cast projectiles with a load hotter than normal. It worked well apparatus but it kicked like fuck.

No reason to not use your ammo on pigs,but it's going to beat you and the gun up.

So what rifles are all y'all actually shooting? And barrel length please.

Originally Posted by Jhon

So what rifles are all y'all actually shooting? And barrel length please.

Henry 45/70
Barrel Length22"
Barrel TypeOctagon Blued Steel
Rate of Twist1:20
Overall Length41.1"
Weight8.10 lbs.
Receiver FinishPolished Hardened Brass
Rear SightFully Adj. Semi-Buckhorn w/ Diamond Insert
Front SightBrass Bead
ScopeabilityDrilled and Tapped
Scope Mount TypeWeaver 63B
Stock MaterialAmerican Walnut
Buttplate/PadBrass
Length of Pull14"
SafetyTransfer Bar
Best UsesTarget/Hunting/Collector
Embellishments/ExtrasLarge Loop Lever, Side Loading Gate, Sling Swivel Studs

There are several other threads here on the types of 45/70 members have…,actually a fantastic number … barrel lengths range from about 18-22 inches ( correct me if I’m wrong).. many have posted some beautiful pictures of those firearms

+P pistol loads make a lot of sense for self defense depending on the handgun but won't try to bother explaining here. In a 45-70 maybe if you have to kill bears or other dangerous game or you hate your sholder. I would have thought even mild loads would deal with pigs well and truly. Good luck with the work in Patagonia I must go there some day.