Percussion caps !

I'm having an issue with my muzzleloader slow firing and a couple of miss fires when the cap went off but didn't ignite the charge !

Using CCI #11s

Was previously using Holy Smoke FFFG black powder and no issues
I have started using Triple 7 FFFG powder because its easier for in the field on multi day hunts.
But since I have started using the Triple 7 I have been having the slow fires when there are 2 quite distinct noises of the primer and then the charge.
Plus I have had 2 complete miss fires where the charge hasn't gone off. One at a reasonable red stag !!

I'm picking that the Triple 7 needs more ignition than the Black Powder and I need a hotter percussion cap ?
Going away this weekend on a multi day fly in Tahr trip and was still keen to go with the Triple 7 for ease of use.
But will fall back to Black Powder just as happily if I have to ( more drama, more smoke and just a little bit more of an issue to clean etc ).

I note that CCI does a magnum #11 cap But can't see any available in CHCH
I also note that Gun City have a Dynamit Nobel VZ #1075 percussion ( assume its a #11 ) cap available and wonder if anyone has used that and if its rated as Magnum or hotter than the CCIs ?
Can't find any real info on the VZ and hope someone on here has had a play with them.

Cheers

I presume its clean under the nipple

there is a chap on other forum who uses the red plastic ones from the $2 shop....the ones we used in cap guns as kids....... maybe you need a little finer powder under your main charge??? one of the BP gurus will tell you whats wrong soon enough.

I think from a bit of googling that its because the triple 7 has a much higher ignition temperature
Fine in a modern in line muzzleloader but not perfect in my traditional one.

Will go back to BP until i can get some hotter caps

Can you change you nipple size, I don’t know what a #11 is but can you go to a top hat type?
You cap off before loading first up?

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Originally Posted by Maca49

Can you change you nipple size, I don’t know what a #11 is but can you go to a top hat type?
You cap off before loading first up?

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No i load then cap
Carefully put some hammer pressure on to seat the cap
Then carry at thw half cock

777 and Pyrodex need a higher ignition temperature than Black powder. You can dribble a little 4F or 3F black down the barrel first then the 777 on top. Remember to thump the side of your lock when loading before you ram down the Bullet/ball on the powder. This will help with powder getting close to the nipple in the flash channel.
Recently I have been using a few #11 CCI Percussion caps and have had a few that have needed a second hammer strike to set them off. I`m the one who uses the red toy cap gun caps.... hell they seem to just work all the time but wouldn`t be hot enough for 777. Corned home made black powder and they are hard to beat.
Just my opinion but I`d stick to the Black Powder.

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

No i load then cap
Carefully put some hammer pressure on to seat the cap
Then carry at thw half cock

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You need to cap off first shot to dry the chamber of oil etc, otherwise wet powder when loaded?

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Originally Posted by Maca49

You need to cap off first shot to dry the chamber of oil etc, otherwise wet powder when loaded?

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Good info I thought he would have done that bit. With percussion guns I now pull the Nipple and pour a jug of boiling water down the barrel and dry swab before I head out shooting, Put the nipple back in of course.

That triple 7 is based on sugar type chemicals and can leave a lot of crude in the breech area, like tar. I have been using cci`s #11`s and black H/S 3f with no misfirer's form when I started this black smoky stuff. I clean out my oiled barrel with meth's before going to the range, take out the nipple and put the breech end in a container with some meth`s, ramrod and patch then pump it up and down to flush all the oil, crud out. Then with barrel back on the rifle put clean patch on rod, push dawn to breech end, fire two caps and check patch, should be crappy on the end, then you are good to go.

I always double cap before the first load
But i don't put a patch in.
Do you leave the rod in with the patch or put the patch in and hook it out after the caps ?

I will have a session with BP before i go away Saturday
I'm picking all will be well again

Capping before loading is a must imo,putting a little powder down the nipple "just to be sure" for the first shot is also not a bad idea. The no 11 is the small cap as macca49 said the top hat military style caps are larger and have more bang.
I hate pyrodex and 777 they may foul less but are harder to ignite and contain chlorate which breaks down to form salt which is so good for steel. You need to be religious with cleaning with that stuff. BP on the other hand produces potassium carbonate as a residue which is alkaline and actually slows or prevents rusting.

Not sure if it matters with percussion lock primers, but for normal large rifle primers (non magnum primers) Federal uses a slightly hotter burning compound than others. The difference is also why Lee tells users not to use Federal Primers in their hand primer tool - Federals are also more sensitive to static, basically can go off unannounced. So maybe if Federal also makes percussion lock primers they also use similar composition as in their cartridge primers. Just thinking, but I don't know.

Akaroa 1 I leave the rod and patch in the barrel, the caps don`t move it and when I pull it out the face is full of crude, the cap sets of what`s left of the meths so really gets all the gungs out. I have never caped off before loading, that's wasting good money, :XD:, I have a capping thingey I made, put cap on and press it onto the nipple, a bang every time!, dry balling !! what ME. Just for laughs and giggle's I made up a gizmo that screws in place of the nipple, it takes a large rifle primer, so no matter what you load you will get a bang, even with my homebrew!!. :o

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Originally Posted by Tasbay

777 and Pyrodex need a higher ignition temperature than Black powder. You can dribble a little 4F or 3F black down the barrel first then the 777 on top. Remember to thump the side of your lock when loading before you ram down the Bullet/ball on the powder. This will help with powder getting close to the nipple in the flash channel.
Recently I have been using a few #11 CCI Percussion caps and have had a few that have needed a second hammer strike to set them off. I`m the one who uses the red toy cap gun caps.... hell they seem to just work all the time but wouldn`t be hot enough for 777. Corned home made black powder and they are hard to beat.
Just my opinion but I`d stick to the Black Powder.

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I use em too but with a trickle of 4f in the cap. Have never had a misfire

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

BP on the other hand produces potassium carbonate as a residue which is alkaline and actually slows or prevents rusting.

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I'd risk that with sulphur-free BP.

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Originally Posted by Driverman

I use em too but with a trickle of 4f in the cap. Have never had a misfire

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CCI #11 percussion or Toy Caps ??

Toy caps. They are star-caps and they are 8 to a ring and 9 rings to a packet and 4 packets for $2.00. I add a small amount of 4f to the nipple or cap (just a few grains) Too much and it will blow the hammer back . a black powder slam fire .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driverman

Toy caps. They are star-caps and they are 8 to a ring and 9 rings to a packet and 4 packets for $2.00. I add a small amount of 4f to the nipple or cap (just a few grains) Too much and it will blow the hammer back . a black powder slam fire .

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$2 for 4 packs that's cheap , $1 a pack here but still a fraction of the price of CCI #11 percussion caps. When I only use homemade BP the toy caps work fine, if using Goex 2F they can fail to fire the charge from what I remember. I haven`t used Bought powder for quite a while unless its 4f in the flash pan of the flintlock.

Shot a Good sized Billy Goat yesterday but from only about 35yds front on. The ball entered the chest and came out the back end smashing the a back leg. That's not bad penetration. Round ball just made from wheel weight lead.

The way things are going homemade powder, scrounged lead and toy caps might be all we have to use in our large calibre sidelock sniper rifles :(

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Originally Posted by Tasbay

$2 for 4 packs that's cheap , $1 a pack here but still a fraction of the price of CCI #11 percussion caps. When I only use homemade BP the toy caps work fine, if using Goex 2F they can fail to fire the charge from what I remember. I haven`t used Bought powder for quite a while unless its 4f in the flash pan of the flintlock.

Shot a Good sized Billy Goat yesterday but from only about 35yds front on. The ball entered the chest and came out the back end smashing the a back leg. That's not bad penetration. Round ball just made from wheel weight lead.

The way things are going homemade powder, scrounged lead and toy caps might be all we have to use in our large calibre sidelock sniper rifles :(

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Yes if they decide to ban .50 BMG they might come after my .50 cal as well.
It was state of the art in 1840
And can fire a steady 2 rpm

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

Yes if they decide to ban .50 BMG they might come after my .50 cal as well.
It was state of the art in 1840
And can fire a steady 2 rpm

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There is part of the problem if you word it a steady 2 rpm its not as dramatic as 120 rounds an hour. A bit like showing the select comity a 5 shot Mini14 with what is possibly the only 100 round drum mag in the country to impress how sinister they are even though they have been here for about the last 50 odd years and used primarily for hunting.

Akaroa1: Did you get anything with the Muzzleloader Thar hunting?. I have just returned from the Hopkins, saw a few but we got pushed out by the weather.

@Tasbay
I got 1 bull
I missed 1 bull
I passed up a shot at a group of bulls that i wouldn't have been to recover

It was a huge challenge with the muzzleloader
Mainly the short days and having time to get within 100m
I will do it again but still need to work on a few things.
The Lyman deerstalker was perfect for the job.
Lost 1 screw but i really think they were never concieved for whati was doing with it.

We flew
Walked
Climbed
Packrafted

We slept in
Tent
Hut
Rock bivvy

We saw plenty of tahr
Fairly high
Mainly in the north facing country
We saw 40+ bulls but hot the one

I was a bit rusty on mid winter tahr and we made some mistakes
Like not carrying the crampons and ice axe all the time.
After the rain Wednesday it was a nightmare on Thursday.

I would do it again tomorrow

I've had miss firing issues with CCI's before that had nothing to do with the caps but wear and tear on the nipple itself. I now replace the nipples every few years and take some time to check that the hammer face is set to come down square and even on the caps. If the hammer is a little loose on it's pivot that is enough to change things but in general firing nipples are a consumable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

@Tasbay
I got 1 bull
I missed 1 bull
I passed up a shot at a group of bulls that i wouldn't have been to recover

It was a huge challenge with the muzzleloader
Mainly the short days and having time to get within 100m
I will do it again but still need to work on a few things.
The Lyman deerstalker was perfect for the job.
Lost 1 screw but i really think they were never concieved for whati was doing with it.

We flew
Walked
Climbed
Packrafted

We slept in
Tent
Hut
Rock bivvy

We saw plenty of tahr
Fairly high
Mainly in the north facing country
We saw 40+ bulls but hot the one

I was a bit rusty on mid winter tahr and we made some mistakes
Like not carrying the crampons and ice axe all the time.
After the rain Wednesday it was a nightmare on Thursday.

I would do it again tomorrow

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Very Cool. Son and I drove down and up the Hopkins with plans of driving to Dodger hut (12hrs). Unfortunately the river had changed since he was there 2yrs ago so ended up carrying packs 58cal and 7mm08. Lost a day getting in and pushed out with only one days hunting. Thar are not something we get where I live so was enjoyable just to see some. Also noted the dead Wallabys south side of Burks Pass by the road, so they have made it into Mackenzie basin. Nothing stopping them going south now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tasbay

Very Cool. Son and I drove down and up the Hopkins with plans of driving to Dodger hut (12hrs). Unfortunately the river had changed since he was there 2yrs ago so ended up carrying packs 58cal and 7mm08. Lost a day getting in and pushed out with only one days hunting. Thar are not something we get where I live so was enjoyable just to see some. Also noted the dead Wallabys south side of Burks Pass by the road, so they have made it into Mackenzie basin. Nothing stopping them going south now.

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I've heard reliable reports of them getting into the two thumb are so it won't be long before they are in the Rangitata catchment - what a mess.

they are in the Geraldine forestry...have been seen by the kakahu limeworks...heard reports of them in orari river bed.....havent seen them there myself.
quite a few been in south opuha for years,they are in north opuha. they have been in mackenzie basin for years.
if and when acess to private land to hunt is granted the numbers can be kept in check....pretty hard to do so when you cant get access.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

they are in the Geraldine forestry...have been seen by the kakahu limeworks...heard reports of them in orari river bed.....havent seen them there myself.
quite a few been in south opuha for years,they are in north opuha. they have been in mackenzie basin for years.
if and when acess to private land to hunt is granted the numbers can be kept in check....pretty hard to do so when you cant get access.

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Yes, we need access and a common sense plan - all it would take is some good old communication and bit of organising and we (the rec hunting mob) could make a positive contribution to keeping wallabies in check.

I've just been reading up on 777 in .50 muzzle loader (just picked the gun up, waiting for rest of accoutrements) and see that they recommend 209 shotgun primer. Maybe helpful.

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Originally Posted by Scouterkotare

I've just been reading up on 777 in .50 muzzle loader (just picked the gun up, waiting for rest of accoutrements) and see that they recommend 209 shotgun primer. Maybe helpful.

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So you have an inline? not a side lock?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driverman

Toy caps. They are star-caps and they are 8 to a ring and 9 rings to a packet and 4 packets for $2.00. I add a small amount of 4f to the nipple or cap (just a few grains) Too much and it will blow the hammer back . a black powder slam fire .

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For more powerful toy cap primers, take some needle-nose pliers and gently but firmly squeeze a toy cap at the base, and then pour out the contents. Carefully* add contents of two caps into one cap, add drop of denatured alcohol and let dry, then put in the paper disc.

You may use the same to reload (corrosive) Boxer primers if you're really stuck.

*) Eye protection and only mix two caps worth in one place. They ARE hazardous goods.

Look guys, those toy caps use a potassium chloride mix and it is very corrosive, make sure you really give the gun a good clean as it will quickly set up rust in the bore of any rifle. I always press the cap onto the nipple so it`s hard down on it, and unless it`s a dud cap I get a bang every time, I would hate having to try getting a bit of 4f into the nipple hole while out hunting. :omg:

Corrosive primers are no problem with black powder as you use water cold and hot to clean so the salt gets washed out.

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Originally Posted by homebrew.357

Look guys, those toy caps use a potassium chloride mix and it is very corrosive, make sure you really give the gun a good clean as it will quickly set up rust in the bore of any rifle. I always press the cap onto the nipple so it`s hard down on it, and unless it`s a dud cap I get a bang every time, I would hate having to try getting a bit of 4f into the nipple hole while out hunting. :omg:

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I have a tool that is used to prime the nipple. Makes life real easy

Homebrew, any chance of a picture of that gizmo?

I was looking at a doohickey from cabelas that used 209 primers but the chances of getting something through customs is fark all these days. If you could put up a picture of your gizmo l have a fitter who might knock one up for me. Will a flat faced hammer set them off?

209 shotgun primers are a pricey option, ive not yet tried the toy caps but really like the idea. I had one rifle that used the no11 small caps which occasionally misfired unless the nipple was primed with a few grains. I swapped out the nipple for one that took eb musket caps end of problem.
A 209 primer will need a special hammer with a lump on the face to act as a firing pin.

If you are going to continue to use 777 in your cap lock the best thing to use is a 209 shotgun primer. Neil Hayes has the special nipple the holds them. They have a threaded cap that holds them in place with a floating firing pin. Takes me about thirty seconds to change out the normal nipple for the one I got off Neil. Never had a hang fire of missfire since. Another plus is the 209 can't get knocked off the nipple by brush and twigs like the normal caps. Also once the cap is screwed on it is relatively water resistant. These things are a Pedersoli product, about $30.

Cci ones are crap get rws if possible