Thread: Pistol powders in rifles question

Hi all. I have a question in regards to using pistol powders in rifle cast reduced loads. Why do some powders require some sort of filler but others don't? Thanks

I've never used fillers in any of my reduced loads except for black powder.
Unique and blue dot are my go to powders for 310 cadet, 3030, 303, 44/40.
It's said the filler keeps the small powder charge up against the primer ensuring ignition, rubbish if your primer can't fill the case with sparks it's stuffed.
In my opinion using dacron etc is likely to put a coat of melted plastic in your bore which I would rather avoid.
If you have access to old reloading books especially lyman ones there's no mention of fillers with any loads.

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

I've never used fillers in any of my reduced loads except for black powder.
Unique and blue dot are my go to powders for 310 cadet, 3030, 303, 44/40.
It's said the filler keeps the small powder charge up against the primer ensuring ignition, rubbish if your primer can't fill the case with sparks it's stuffed.
In my opinion using dacron etc is likely to put a coat of melted plastic in your bore which I would rather avoid.
If you have access to old reloading books especially lyman ones there's no mention of fillers with any loads.

I bought some Trailboss off a dude in Katikati and he showed me how he used a smidgen of cotton off a cotton bud as his filler. Used it on both 223 and 308 rounds.Due to start some 308 as I have the Tok 151 308 pills.

Originally Posted by TeRei

I bought some Trailboss off a dude in Katikati and he showed me how he used a smidgen of cotton off a cotton bud as his filler. Used it on both 223 and 308 rounds.Due to start some 308 as I have the Tok 151 308 pills.

Has he got more TB?

Suggest you do a lot of research on using fillers. Some still use them. They were used a fair bit a few decades back and notable writers published load info. What came up for me is that there were instances reported of detonation in loads with filler used damaging or destroying firearms and causing injury. The real issue was that despite several attempts, such detonation could not be repeated reliably under lab conditions. So no-one knows why the same load with filler has no issues over hundreds of reloads for one person yet can detonate either at a later point for that person or for someone else. That is too loose for me.

I focused on the use of Red Dot in "The Load". Research it for yourself but basically 13gn of (the old) Red Dot in any 30cal cartridge with cast bullets around 200gn producing around 1400- 1600 fps - your mileage may vary.

I found some old ICI Nobel 78 Shotgun powder, a larger flake powder, gives a reliable result of the same order. I use it without issues, so far, in 30-30, 308, 303B for velocities ranging from 900fps to 1800fps the latter being very stout. 1600fps is a sweet spot for me.

It has not detonated - yet. I also use it with great performance and reliability in 45ACP, 38sp and 357mag pistol and LA loads

There is no published load data for this powder.

I have never used fillers.

Others use AP70N in similar fashion.

I am not recommending you do as I do. If you want to go down this path do a lot of research and cross referencing and don't take any one assertion as gospel. Its your eyes, face and fingers you are risking.

Don't go near ball powders or standard rifle powders (SR4759 excepted) for reduced loads with or without fillers. Just don't....

Originally Posted by Jhon

Suggest you do a lot of research on using fillers. Some still use them. They were used a fair bit a few decades back and notable writers published load info. What came up for me is that there were instances reported of detonation in loads with filler used damaging or destroying firearms and causing injury. The real issue was that despite several attempts, such detonation could not be repeated reliably under lab conditions. So no-one knows why the same load with filler has no issues over hundreds of reloads for one person yet can detonate either at a later point for that person or for someone else. That is too loose for me.

I focused on the use of Red Dot in "The Load". Research it for yourself but basically 13gn of (the old) Red Dot in any 30cal cartridge with cast bullets around 200gn producing around 1400- 1600 fps - your mileage may vary.

I found some old ICI Nobel 78 Shotgun powder, a larger flake powder, gives a reliable result of the same order. I use it without issues, so far, in 30-30, 308, 303B for velocities ranging from 900fps to 1800fps the latter being very stout. 1600fps is a sweet spot for me.

It has not detonated - yet. I also use it with great performance and reliability in 45ACP, 38sp and 357mag pistol and LA loads

There is no published load data for this powder.

I have never used fillers.

Others use AP70N in similar fashion.

I am not recommending you do as I do. If you want to go down this path do a lot of research and cross referencing and don't take any one assertion as gospel. Its your eyes, face and fingers you are risking.

Don't go near ball powders or standard rifle powders (SR4759 excepted) for reduced loads with or without fillers. Just don't....

I do have AP70N. Just trying to work out a good load and what existing load data I can use as a reference, min and max load etc.

Originally Posted by Three O'Three

I do have AP70N. Just trying to work out a good load and what existing load data I can use as a reference, min and max load etc.

Start with 10gn. 13-14gn is going to be very close to or over max. Work up slowly. Heavy bolt lift = retreat quickly. Also look for extractor imprint, or a shiny mark. Primers won't tell you much unless they are blown and then you will certainly know

Originally Posted by Three O'Three

I do have AP70N. Just trying to work out a good load and what existing load data I can use as a reference, min and max load etc.

Ap70n is ADI's version of Unique it is sold in the US as Universal standard cast bullet start load is 10 grains in .30 cal rifles with a 180-200 grain bullet,
should not need a filler if the velocity is iractic then a filler will help,
Detonations only happen with small powder charges of very slow burning powder, none have been with fast pistol powders but double loads are the cause
of blown guns, if using fast powder only load one case with powder and seat the bullet don't fill a loading block of cases with powder it will go wrong sooner
than later.

Some powders are sensitive to the position of the powder (when not a full case of it) in relation to the primer, hence why the filler is required to keep the powder back by the primer. I use IMR4198 for reduced recoil youth-type loads in rifles cases, and that powder is not sensitive to the position in the case with reduced loads. Its not a pistol powder as such, but is fast burning, and is commonly referenced for use with cast bullet reduced rifle loads.

I wish 4759 was still available

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

I wish 4759 was still available

Yeah my bit is well locked up lol

@Jhon
Have a look at this post re Nobel's powder data:
https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....rtridge-81222/

Originally Posted by rupert

@Jhon
Have a look at this post re Nobel's powder data:
https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....rtridge-81222/

Yes, you will see me on that thread. I have a full manual for ICI Nobel Rifle & Pistol powders. They did not publish data for Nobel 78 Shotgun Powder in Pistol or rifle as far as I know

Check out a guru's experience:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...use-of-fillers

Originally Posted by rupert

Check out a guru's experience:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...use-of-fillers

IMHO super fast burners including TB don't need a filler. They work fine for subsonic loads and I have never had one that "failed to light".

I suspect the detonations that have occurred are due to double or tipple charging the super fast powder which is an understandable result. I would suggest visually checking all loads.