Post "3 shot group" load development

So for those who have watched and understood the implications of Hornady's #50 podcast (or arrived at the same destination by another route!) what's you approach to load development when your first combinations don't work?

It's reasonably obvious that having "chosen the most suitable projectile for purpose" that changing powder would be the first stop. But I've not seen any documented experiences on how many different powders you'd try before going onto the 2nd choice projectile?

For those into this has anyone tried any combinations? Results?

I think this is where being clear and realistic about your requirements comes in. With a better understanding of true precision has to come an acceptance that it will be larger than expected by the zeitgeist. There aren't .25moa rifles. So "doesnt work" might need a good examination

For a future rifle, I will be trying the 108gr ELDM and 2209. If I achieve acceptable large-group precision, say 10rd into .2mil or less, and my target speed (2750-2850) without pressure issues, I'll be done.

If 2209 doesn't work I'll try 2208.

If it doesn't work I'll try 103gr ELDX. If it doesn't work I'll cry and buy Bergers

Up to three different powders in the past. Now i try and do as much research as possible to see what works on others setups before I even start.

I'm more on line with what @gimp is saying above.

It also depends on what the first groups come out like. Say if you try your first powder and projectile combo and it shoots a couple of nice groups over the teast but it's slower than you wanted. Try another powder and see if you can crank it up a bit and still have good grouping.

But if it shoots like a scatter gun, a different powders won't help you.

I’d probably try two sensible powders for the projectile I wanted to use and if neither grouped well I’d move on, maybe 3 if I really wanted to use that projectile, in the past I’ve persisted and in the end wasted components and time. I believe that having a good quality barrel goes a long way to making life easy when it comes to getting an accurate load. The 2 rifles I have with Trueflight barrels shoot very well as well as my Sako’s

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Originally Posted by gimp

For a future rifle, I will be trying the 108gr ELDM and 2209. If I achieve acceptable large-group precision, say 10rd into .2mil or less, and my target speed (2750-2850) without pressure issues, I'll be done.

If 2209 doesn't work I'll try 2208.

If it doesn't work I'll try 103gr ELDX. If it doesn't work I'll cry and buy Bergers

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6mm ARC ?
Barrel length ?

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Originally Posted by gimp

For a future rifle, I will be trying the 108gr ELDM and 2209. If I achieve acceptable large-group precision, say 10rd into .2mil or less, and my target speed (2750-2850) without pressure issues, I'll be done.

If 2209 doesn't work I'll try 2208.

If it doesn't work I'll try 103gr ELDX. If it doesn't work I'll cry and buy Bergers

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The approach will be to load a batch of 10-20 at book max, then if that gives acceptable accuracy and speed, job is complete. Possibly an adjustment up or down of a couple of tenths to adjust speed.

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Originally Posted by gimp

The approach will be to load a batch of 10-20 at book max, then if that gives acceptable accuracy and speed, job is complete. Possibly an adjustment up or down of a couple of tenths to adjust speed.

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Note I've been using this approach recently for a couple of loads and I have yet to find it lacking. Time will tell.

I've been using this method for trialing .223 hunting loads for years, largely out of laziness vs science.

If a projectile won't shoot how I want it at book max for a given powder, I'm not giving up speed to hunt for better accuracy, I just move on.

Going forward I will probably use the load at 10 in grain increments for bigger cartridges. Previously used the 10 shot ladder method to save components.

It seems that sacred cow has been slaughtered.

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Originally Posted by gimp

For a future rifle, I will be trying the 108gr ELDM and 2209. If I achieve acceptable large-group precision, say 10rd into .2mil or less, and my target speed (2750-2850) without pressure issues, I'll be done.

If 2209 doesn't work I'll try 2208.

If it doesn't work I'll try 103gr ELDX. If it doesn't work I'll cry and buy Bergers

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I am comfortably getting 2830fps with the 108 ELD-Ms using 2209 in the 243win.

As few as three or as many as seven relative to the chosen bullet and desired MV.
The very first round of test batch shooting is to identify which powders show best accuracy potential and velocity nodes. No hopers are immediately discarded and results from the most promising one or two powders decide the charges in the next batch of trial loads, usually three different charges for each powder. Perhaps 70% of the time shooting these will show a clear winner and the search for a load stops there. Any further shooting is to validate load consistency and drops if wanted to shoot out to 400 yds. Sometimes I also attempt tweaking the load with COAL adjustment, but not often.
If having tested an initial trial batch as above where nothing at all looks interesting I discard the bullet, select another and start again.

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Originally Posted by Beavis

It seems that sacred cow has been slaughtered.

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https://youtu.be/ohxN3nCzxSw?si=h8b3...Rd6q6t&t=2m46s

But if it shoots like a scatter gun, a different powders won't help you.[/QUOTE]

I was despairing with a new 375 H&H Douglas barrel that I couldn't get to shoot Barnes TSX 300 gn after trying about ten different powders. Usually several powders produce great loads with this bullet. Trying different bullet makes and weights didn't help either. My last ditch attempt was Staball 6.5 with the TSX 300 gn. Wow, it was magic. Suddenly I got great groups and a very consistent load. Happy days.

Very similar to gimp these days.

I look at data and play with GRT to see what a cartridge with however many inches barrel should reasonably top out at. Load ~10 rounds that should give a speed I want that's within that. The precision comes from having a good rifle, using good components, and putting them together consistently.

The ES/SD usually takes care of itself by virtue of using good brass and having a fancy scale. Usually close to if not single digit right off the bat. If it's not then that's usually a sign I could have picked a more suitable powder. But the only ones where I'm really obsessing over getting it down as much as possible now is subsonics, where every foot per second translates to several inches more/less drop when shooting them out to distance.

If something doesn't shoot as tight as expected, there's gonna be a reason why. E.g. I chucked a borescope down one misbehaving rifle and found that about 2" from the muzzle was is a defect with the barrel.

I was despairing with a new 375 H&H Douglas barrel that I couldn't get to shoot Barnes TSX 300 gn after trying about ten different powders. Usually several powders produce great loads with this bullet. Trying different bullet makes and weights didn't help either. My last ditch attempt was Staball 6.5 with the TSX 300 gn. Wow, it was magic. Suddenly I got great groups and a very consistent load. Happy days.[/QUOTE]

There must be more to this, because if all you did was change powder that's bordering on miraculous :D

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for you, amazed too.

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Originally Posted by Rated M for Magnum

I was despairing with a new 375 H&H Douglas barrel that I couldn't get to shoot Barnes TSX 300 gn after trying about ten different powders. Usually several powders produce great loads with this bullet. Trying different bullet makes and weights didn't help either. My last ditch attempt was Staball 6.5 with the TSX 300 gn. Wow, it was magic. Suddenly I got great groups and a very consistent load. Happy days.

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There must be more to this, because if all you did was change powder that's bordering on miraculous :D

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for you, amazed too.[/QUOTE]
@Rated M for Magnum
It was just like a miracle. I almost couldn't believe it but it was real. Two and three sessions following, on different days, and the load was just as good. There might be more to it as you say but I can't explain it. Ouf of interest I tried a couple of the disappointing loads again. Still rubbish.
Since Staball 6.5 was the answer I immediately covered myself by buying 4 lbs of the same batch when a member here advertised it for sale.

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Originally Posted by 30.06king

There must be more to this, because if all you did was change powder that's bordering on miraculous :D

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for you, amazed too.

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@Rated M for Magnum
It was just like a miracle. I almost couldn't believe it but it was real. Two and three sessions following, on different days, and the load was just as good. There might be more to it as you say but I can't explain it. Ouf of interest I tried a couple of the disappointing loads again. Still rubbish.
Since Staball 6.5 was the answer I immediately covered myself by buying 4 lbs of the same batch when a member here advertised it for sale.[/QUOTE]

Nothing beats those jackpot feelings when you're reloading :pacman:

A lot of the pushback on the 'load dev vs. statistics' issur comes from Boomers hating the fact they effectively wasted thousands (if not tens of thousands in today's economy!) on components over the years. Basically conducting an 'experiment' with little to no awareness or control over all the variables.

Even moreso with the fire-formers :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by caberslash

A lot of the pushback on the 'load dev vs. statistics' issur comes from Boomers hating the fact they effectively wasted thousands (if not tens of thousands in today's economy!) on components over the years. Basically conducting an 'experiment' with little to no awareness or control over all the variables.

Even moreso with the fire-formers :thumbsup:

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Not me..I load em up n go shoot stuff.have never struck a load bad enough to blame for me missing. Did have issues due to not cleaning when using black powder..will revisit this soon.