Reday to find a load...advice please

Hi Guys

Will be starting my reloading career on the weekend so wanted to run what I was planning past the wise heads on the forum

Rifle Howa 308 18" barrel suppressed, due to having slightly stiff bolt turn on chambering Hornady SSt 150 I have been told I probably have a tight chamber. mag length is 2.890"

I am reloading 1x fired Hornady cases
Cases Full sized and trimmed to 2.005
Fiocchi Large Rifle Primers
AR2208 powder
150gr Hornady interlock BTSP
Planning to load to COAL of 2.8"

I am planning the following

Ladder test really to check for Max pressure, don't have a crony...yet. Will only be at 100 so maybe not so much value finding accuracy nodes, as stated really looking for max pressure.

Starting load at 44, going up in .5 increments to 1gr over max at 48gr, max listed at 47C, will stop loading if doesn't fit! Will stop firing once pressure signs evident

After some research seems 46gr is a common sweet load so was thinking of also loading 5 at this weight and seeing if they group ok as long as no pressure signs.

So a good start or have you got a better suggestion

Cheers

Dino

Dino, that all sounds good.

47gr of 2208 is a compressed load in 308, the "C" in 47C, I would not go much higher that that, or be real careful watching for pressure signs, speed is not everything...

Have a look at Optimal Charge Weight as an alternative to ladder

Go slowly, measure lots, have fun :D

If your mag will allow seating out to the lands i found they shot very well there and you get a bit more case volume.



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Thnaks EBF and VC

ebf...have looked at ocw, will definitely give it a go when I can organise a chrony and a longer range, restricted to 100m range here in Dunners so not sure how usefull it would be.

VC, as far as mag length goes if have .090 over recomended cartridge length in my book, I was not sure how much play to have so ammo will cycle through the mag so thought I would try 2.8 to start.

If no joy will have to have a play.

Cheers Guys

Will post a report after I get some pills on paper, not this weekend thought forecast is shit!

Cheers

Dino

100m is plenty enough for OCW, no chrony required

I like it coz it is round robin by design, so evens out things like barrel temp, environmental factors etc.

Also, the initial aim is more about stability rather than hyper accuracy.

If you load a decent spread to start with (max -10, sighters and then 0.7% increments) you will do your pressure ladder at the same time...

Use 2206H for more speed out of the 18". If you are using 150gr there ain't much point spitting out Varget IMO. In saying that, 44gr I think it was of 2208 was getting 2550fps out of my mates 18" Howa with 168gr A max. I tried loading them to 2.8" but the throat in that rifle is way short. Try 208gr A max with RL17 and Winchester brass for good times.

Good luck with your reloading,
I have no idea why you want to find your max pressures when its already been done for you and written in over 50 published hand loading books.

Keep safe and remember ware sum feckn glasses testing your loads..

Hi Guys

Thanks Beavis
I did consider 2206 if 2208 does not pan out as hoped then will give it a crack.

6MMBR
I intend to work up to Max load as stated I believe my rifle has a tight chamber, good for accuracy but can increase pressure, I also use a suppressor, I have been told they can also increase pressure.

I have had ejector marks on factory loads so plan to be careful, I will be looking for a load close to Max pressure wherever that may be below or over stated Max load as written in a book, as stated will be careful and have some experienced help to assist me to do it here on the ground.

Just checkin on the forum as there are a number of guys whos opinion I appreciate having read their posts in regards to reloading



cheers

Dino

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 6MMBR

I have no idea why you want to find your max pressures when its already been done for you and written in over 50 published hand loading books.

Keep safe and remember ware sum feckn glasses testing your loads..

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Because every single rifle and chamber is different...

The idea (which Dino seems to have a firm grip on) is that you test pressure in YOUR rifle, to see where IT starts showing signs of pressure. The reloading manuals are based on a theoretical SAAMI specification, you could have a rifle that shows pressure signs well before the theoretical max load, or you could have a rifle that allows you to load well above the published max load...

Good comment about the safety glasses, also good to wear them when handling primers etc :thumbsup:

Interesting about the 2206h Beavis, some of the F-class guys love it.

I must get a bottle to test, art, too many options to play with :D

Getting around 2650fps out of my 18incher with 150 speer btsp, and 45.8gr of 2208

Would you gain much or any vel with a 150gr running 2206h over 2208 in a 18" ?
I run 2208 for pretty much everything cos I have lots of it and can still get 3200 with 130 barnes out of 22'' no visible mussel flash but can see it on film. Obviously a faster powder would better suit this weight but it still goes well.

I think 2206H is just an all around better option in a short barrel. Much more efficient. 2208 works, just a bit of a waste as you don't get a full burn.

Have you tried back to back for velocity?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebf

100m is plenty enough for OCW, no chrony required

I like it coz it is round robin by design, so evens out things like barrel temp, environmental factors etc.

Also, the initial aim is more about stability rather than hyper accuracy.

If you load a decent spread to start with (max -10, sighters and then 0.7% increments) you will do your pressure ladder at the same time...

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Ahhh, I'm not sure you really grasp the concept behind the OCW process if you think 100mtrs will be ideal.

Only in .223. Velocity gain was significant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beavis

Only in .223. Velocity gain was significant.

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K stands to reason it should be better with lighter weights like 130 125 in 308 but Im not convinced on 150 up unless really short barreled.

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I don't think the load data between the two powders is dissimilar,

150 AR2206H 43.0 2,740 - 45.5 2,870 -
150 AR2208 44.0 2,790 - 47.0C 2,940

Who has an old 85 or 75 barrel.
Ill cut and test with both.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

Ahhh, I'm not sure you really grasp the concept behind the OCW process if you think 100mtrs will be ideal.

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Sharing is caring :D

How do you do it ?

Here are the "original" instructions.
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspa...ons/4529817134

Step 8 - 100 yds

Dino if your chamber.is tight you can expect pressure at lower charge weights (as seen with factory ammo you mention).you may find your sweet spot is a grain less tham amticipated as it will be hitting the pressure/speed combo.with less powder

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebf

Sharing is caring :D

How do you do it ?

Here are the "original" instructions.
OCW instructions - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

Step 8 - 100 yds

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I'll do a proper post/PM when I'm in front of my laptop. Typing longish posts on my phone ruins my life!

I haven't actually seen that link before and I can't argue with anything in it bar the distance.

Pressure, shows as speed, which shows as elevation. Hard to see any conclusive data at only 100mtrs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Proudkiwi

Pressure, shows as speed, which shows as elevation. Hard to see any conclusive data at only 100mtrs.

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Your not taking into account where in the barrel whip the bullet exits . Its entirely possible for a slower bullet to impact higher.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Your not taking into account where in the barrel whip the bullet exits . Its entirely possible for a slower bullet to impact higher.

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I'm not taking into account a shit load of other variables either, regardless I stand by my point.

Focusing purely on the barrel 'whip' in your example Cam, do you think you would be able to determine the effect, if any, on elevation at 100mtrs or would the holes all be so close together on every target that the data was meaningless and indecipherable?

Please don't misunderstand, I am an advocate of the OCW method, I just think that at 100mtrs the targets are going to tell you nothing at all. At 300mtrs plus, you will start to see something useful.

It really depends on your aim i guess. Is it best groups regardless of variable inputs at 100 or 1000 where es has more effect.
I don't personally own a chonograph accurate enough to get into es but sweet spot is obvious enough to me at 100 for further development.
Then its a case of how accurate do i actually need it to be and how fast do i want it.

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What rifle, caliber etc are you shooting proudkiwi ?

You're talking about holes close together. My understanding is that at least in the initial round, OCW is not about group size, but rather distance to aim point. That's why I asked the question in my other thread. VC was onto it, I did not get it, when I got a email response from Dan Newberry, he had put it in terms that I could get my head around.

I'd be gobsmacked if a rifle/shooter manages to shoot cloverleaf groups, all the same distance from aim point, using stepped loads, even at 100 m

By my reading it just a ladder test done at short range with a heap more rounds fired
You are finding a node that 3ish weights shoot similar point of impact... Exactly what a ladder does, but 3x as many rounds fired and due to being at 100 yds, the data is 1/3 of the resolution that that of a 300yd ladder test
So thus 9x the PITA?!? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebf

What rifle, caliber etc are you shooting proudkiwi ?

You're talking about holes close together. My understanding is that at least in the initial round, OCW is not about group size, but rather distance to aim point. That's why I asked the question in my other thread. VC was onto it, I did not get it, when I got a email response from Dan Newberry, he had put it in terms that I could get my head around.

I'd be gobsmacked if a rifle/shooter manages to shoot cloverleaf groups, all the same distance from aim point, using stepped loads, even at 100 m

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No, I'm not talking about group size at all. OCW is basically trying to find the most forgiving node for your rifle where changes in other variables such as temp, or variations in powder throws etc etc have the least amount of impact on your POI.

All I'm saying is that at 100 mtrs the data you are looking for to base your decision on is not as clear as it is at 300mtrs plus.

Have you tried the OCW at 100? Did you get the data you wanted?

Yup, 100m, the average POI (for a group of 3) moved around, and stabilised. To me it looked like there were 2 nodes, I choose the lower one due to getting pressure signs at the higher load.

That middle load of the stabilised lot is the one I am using to do seating depth refinement.

When I'm back from Fiordland, will load another 15 of the original set and repeat @ 200 (my range max) to see if the results are much more obvious

Hi Guys

So completed my ladder looking for pressure signs, working from 44gr 2208 behind 150 interlocks, no pressure signs observed, primers all good and no ejector marks. I have not measured case head expansion dont have a micrometer.

Statistically I know this does not mean much but still was a good day out punching paper
Attachment 14139

So from the ladder test I have a question

My rifle is sighted in for 150sst factory ammo and it shoots to 1.5inches above of aim, about where the 44grain is.

The 150 interlocks have a lower BC, probably nt so relevant over 100m, but at the higher loads is the bullet probably travelling faster than the sst's as it is going over the the point of aim?

Below is a group I tried with the interlocks, not so good, pulled the 1 to the right but the rest felt good, will have to have a bit of a fiddle
Attachment 14140

Cheers Guys

Dino

mmmmm..not sure how the Sako ended up in there...enjoy...lol

Ladder really means nothing at 100yds
You'd see a lot more at 200

yep

all good when you have access to 200m range:thumbsup:

Will travel 40 mins to Bruce range in milton which is 300, maybe even 600, that will test the 4.5 power scope

Cheers

Dino

What charge did you go with for the group?
46 46.5 and47 looked promising on your ladder

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VC

I went with 46. Loaded at 2.800 so by my reckoning 30thou off lands, did not want to seat to close to I get a second opinion on distance to lands.

Lot of guys use it as a go to load, not giving up on the 46, could have walked up the page with barrel heat, I normally shoot 3 shot groups with no problems.

The ladder test was shot 1, walk down mark target, walk back, did not want heat to affect it.

I will load some at 46 and fiddle with seating the pill closer to lands,

I thought I would also try 46.5 and see if the extra 1/2 grain tightens it up

Cheers

Dino

Quote:

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Would you gain much or any vel with a 150gr running 2206h over 2208 in a 18" ?
I run 2208 for pretty much everything cos I have lots of it and can still get 3200 with 130 barnes out of 22'' no visible mussel flash but can see it on film. Obviously a faster powder would better suit this weight but it still goes well.

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In my suppressed 18 incher I got a max velocity with 2208 and 150gn SSTs of 2800fps with a heavily compressed 49gns. Groups around .8 of an inch at 100. With 2206H and the same pill I'm getting the same velocity with 2 grains less powder and accuracy of around .3 MOA at 100. Found 2206H better than H335 in my rifle with the 130gn TTSX also. Same velocities with less pressure signs and similar enough accuracy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike H

In my suppressed 18 incher I got a max velocity with 2208 and 150gn SSTs of 2800fps with a heavily compressed 49gns. Groups around .8 of an inch at 100. With 2206H and the same pill I'm getting the same velocity with 2 grains less powder and accuracy of around .3 MOA at 100. Found 2206H better than H335 in my rifle with the 130gn TTSX also. Same velocities with less pressure signs and similar enough accuracy.

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Interesting.

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Not .308, but when I was messing around with the 68gr Hornady BTHP in my M4, 2208 was yielding pretty poo velocity, around 2450fps with 24.5gr, not a max charge but I don't think adding more powder would have helped much. I switched to 2206H and the start load was doing around 2650fps, worked up to the max 26gr C, and got 2864fps avg, with usable accuracy. This is out of a 16" tube, I'm sold on it for short barrel work - only wish it was powder measure friendly. Will try BM2 when I run out for that reason. I'm pretty sure you would see similar results in a short barrel .308.

Ok Bit of an update

Day off work today so caught the sailing..wahoo, big arse bacon sandwiches, walk the hound...good day head to the range.

Last time out the 46.5 gr group was shit so thought I would push them a little faster and see if they tightened up, turns out was a good guess
Attachment 14457
Attachment 14458
Attachment 14454



So feeling pretty good with that I had also rolled up some Barnes 130s to ladder test, this time 3 shot groups to see if they were printing ok on the way
Attachment 14455
Mmmm...pretty happy with that, next load
Attachment 14459
This load starting to get hot..slight ejector marks and very slight bolt stickiness

Nice thing is this printed at the same height as the 49.5gr load so will load 3 at 49 see how they go for height and load up a few at 49.5 to check the wee group not a fluke.

So seem to be making some progress.

Thanks to all the guys who have chimed in with assistance and answering questions.

Cheers

Dino

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebf

Interesting about the 2206h Beavis, some of the F-class guys love it.

I must get a bottle to test, art, too many options to play with :D

Getting around 2650fps out of my 18incher with 150 speer btsp, and 45.8gr of 2208

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Not just F class....seems popular for 308FTR. Of course then there is 2209 as well....so many options....

Not seen you at Trentham? Shot 2 x no4 Enfields last weekend, great fun even if I sucked.....playing risk with my elbow, but it seems to have healed OK....

Running low loads, 37gr 2208 behind barnual 180gr fmjs. Next time 308 150gr fmjs and 39gr in one and 174gr matchkings with 37.5 gr in the other.

Thinking about PH TX1200 at the moment....fairly cheap....