Reloading brass hulls for an English Black powder s/b/s 12 gauge.

A simple question, but as I have no local s I can ask, I ask here.


I am reloading, BLACK POWDER FF, card and fibre wads, (no plastic) in period brass hulls for an old English 12 gauge s/b/s. Thanks to the admirable Kingsley Field, I now have a goodly number of brass hulls ranging from 2 ½ to 3 inch. Time to mention that I will not be crimping them for logical and the preservation of vanishing past artifact reasons.


However, I need to establish the chamber size of the “old Girl” as nothing, I repeat NOTHING about chamber size is stamped anywhere on her barrels. I thought that by sliding a rod down from the chamber end of the barrel, I would encounter a “resistance”’ when I reached the “forcing cone” point but no, only a smooooooooooth gradual reduction in size in the gauge until it pops out the spout................ Bother.


She has Extractors and if I insert uncrimped, brass 2 inch, and 2 1/2 inch hulls, the lock closes nicely. Doesn’t want anything to do with uncrimped brass 2 ¾ or 3 inch hulls.


QUESTIONS:......at last I hear you sigh.
1...Am I correct in assuming her optimum chamber capacity is 2 ½?


2..As I have a good collection of other hulls which I am keen to load with different loads, am I again correct in assuming that any loaded brass hull NOT CRIMPED with an overall length of 2 inches up to 2 ½ should be OK?


3... Does this also apply to paper / card / plastic hulls, STAR CRIMPED with an overall PRE FIRED length of up to 2 ½ inches, or do I have to ensure that the after fired overall length does not exceed 2 1/2 inch?


I dwell upon this as I’m a bit concerned about intruding into the “forcing cone” area and producing too much pressure as she has “Twist” barrels which demand my respect.

Also any advice on “adhering” the over shot card to the brass hull seeing I am not crimping, would be appreciated. I thought 4 spots of my bee’s wax lube mix . Wotcha fink?

All comment most appreciated.

old rule of thumb for black powder...equal VOLUMN powder and lead shot........
wee dab of nail varnish will hold better than wax.

you need uncrimped case to fit in chamber with no resistance BECAUSE it needs room to unfold so payload can smoothly get past it....a 3" unfired shell will fit in 2 3/4" chamber..... your trial of 2 3/4" NOT fitting sujests you are correct with 2 1/2"

You are over thinking this and not making much sense.

Load your Brass Hulls in the usual mannor,place a over shot Wad and glue it in place with a Hot Glue Gun.

You are going to have to resize your Brass Hulls after firing.

Or take regular plastic hulls,cut off the star crimp,load them in the usual mannor and roll crimp the over shot wad in place.

Wether they are 2" or two and a half inches wont really make any odds,those to measurements are the cartridge length before firing.

that whackamole MAY resize them for you......wont do them any harm....

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Originally Posted by norsk

You are over thinking this and not making much sense...

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Not unusual. I recall a lady friend telling me i spent too much time thinking. Missed her point altogether, along with other benefits....Sigh

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Originally Posted by norsk

.............Glue it in place with a Hot Glue Gun....

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Good idea, but ...not going to cause pressure problems with the steel twist barrels?

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Originally Posted by norsk

...........You are going to have to resize your Brass Hulls after firing........"

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Eh? The hulls will not be used in another gun so basically at the first fire, I will be fire sizing them. So why do you say I will need to , ".... resize your Brass Hulls after firing..."?

Many Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Sapper

Not unusual. I recall a lady friend telling me i spent too much time thinking. Missed her point altogether, along with other benefits....Sigh





Good idea, but ...not going to cause pressure problems with the steel twist barrels?
No,the largest pressure spike will be when the burning powder begins to over come the weight of the shot,if you are worried about the integrity of the barrels,dont use them.




Eh? The hulls will not be used in another gun so basically at the first fire, I will be fire sizing them. So why do you say I will need to , ".... resize your Brass Hulls after firing..."?

Because like brass cartridges they will expand to the chamber and not return to their original size after firing.My experiance of Brass Hulls is that they need to be resized.I have always used the CBC brand,but gave up and just used plastic hulls from the trap range,cut off the star crimp and put a roll crimp on them.


Many Thanks.

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Greetings Kiwi Sapper,
The problems due to overthinking are minor and will be corrected over time. Problems due to underthinking can be permanent and occasionally terminal. Put me down as plus 1 in the overthinking column.
Regards Grandpamac.

".......Because like brass cartridges they will expand to the chamber and not return to their original size after firing.My experiance of Brass Hulls is that they need to be resized.I have always used the CBC brand,but gave up and just used plastic hulls from the trap range,cut off the star crimp and put a roll crimp on them.........'

No confusion about that, but perhaps I should have added that as well as being non crimped, they also had never been fired. So any expansion to chamber size will not be a problem unless there is a difference in size between the two s/b/s/ chambers, which is unlikely from the English maker. If so, then I will be lazy and just mark them left and right. :>)

If you ever do feel the need to use plastic wads prepare for the fact that they are a little under case size. The only time I use them is with solids. I cut the petal bit and acceleration sponge off and discard them, turn the piston upside down and nest a round ball in it on top of a fibre over powder wad with a card overshot on top. It seems to improve accuracy. By scavenging and recycling wads from the local club I feel I am doing my bit.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

If you ever do feel the need to use plastic wads prepare for the fact that they are a little under case size.............

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Considering the effort required to source a stock of 12 gauge paper hulls, brass hulls, fibre wads and cards, 11 gauge fibre wads and cards to use with the brass hulls, bulk bees wax and a roll crimper, plastic just ain't on the scene.:>)

However, when it comes to the semi auto 12 gauge, well, that's a different era and reality kicks in..

As we are talking 12 gauge, you interest me in mentioning using a "ball." What is the diameter, weight and effective range? I may consider that an alternative to the Lyman slugs.

one of the common sinker sizes is just about perfect....always wondered how it would go with plastic wad attached backwards to rear of it...be like giant shuttlecock.

.669, it was at an auction. I was looking for a 16 gauge mould and this had 16 stamped on it so I bid on it. Get it home and cast some, don't fit! Measure and ah so I trys them in my 12 gauge muzzle loader with 1 thickness of cotton dress shirt as a patch. Shoots a dinner plate group at 50 yards, and about the same in the 12 gauge

Cork floor tiles or even carpet tiles, two wads deep make for a good overpowder wad.

Cornflake box or really any "thin-ish" cardboard shiny side out will do for you overshot wad.

Make a 11 gauge wad punch from a peice of pipe,take care to sharpen just the inside of the pipe.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

....................... I trys them in my 12 gauge muzzle loader with 1 thickness of cotton dress shirt as a patch. Shoots a dinner plate group at 50 yards, and about the same in the 12 gauge

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PING @Marty Henry

As I have just obtained 3 kg of these courtesy of jim160 and and am keen to try them, may I please have your powder loads, both BP and Modern as the TAC 12 is hungry

Having noted your earlier comment re recycling of the dreaded plastic wads,and I have a goodly amount of unused, I shall bear that in what I laughingly call my mind.

Thank You

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Originally Posted by muzza

I recall I used to use denim patches in my muzzleloader - preferably cut from the inner thigh region of ladies jeans cos , you know , when you stuff them in your mouth to spit lubricate them - but you get the general idea.....

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In MY DAY, Ladies had not stooped to wearing "jeans."...However, to this day, I remember the flavour of crinolines.

Put the ball in the palm of your hand,pour enough powder over the ball to just cover it.

That's your starting load.

Crude but it works.

Norsk is right that is a good go to with an unmetered powder flask round balls seem to need more powder than an equivalent weight bullet does. I use 80 grains of 2f in the muzzle loader, and in a single shot shotgun 22 grains of red dot smokeless as I've got a big tin of it and it needs to go somewhere.

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Originally Posted by norsk

Put the ball in the palm of your hand,pour enough powder over the ball to just cover it. That's your starting load..........

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This as a start for APN 70 as well as B.P? I ask because I cannot find a red dot / APN conversion rate.

No No No covering the ball IS ONLY FOR BLACK POWDER NEVER SMOKELESS.
Red dot is faster than ap 70 and looking in my books ap 70n matches unique. My old notes show 26 gr of unique was a load I used with 1 1/4 Oz of shot. A 12 gauge ball weight is about the same but use with caution.
A round ball generally produces lower pressures than a shot charge of similar weight due to the reduced bearing surface and reduced friction,

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

No No No covering the ball IS ONLY FOR BLACK POWDER NEVER SMOKELESS................,

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thanks for the clarification and I will continue to "overthinK, in the gray areas I encounter.

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Sapper

thanks for the clarification and I will continue to "overthinK, in the gray areas I encounter.

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You are being obtuse.

If you seriously thought you could substitute Smokeless to Black powder in equal quantities, then I question your suitability to own firearms in general.

I have given you some practical information on this thread that I myself have used.If you don't like the way it was delivered,stop asking or place me on ignore.

go back and read #2 ........equal volume BP and lead shot.......

With apologies for hijacking thread...but those with relevant knowledge seem to be gathered...are there any reasons why not to use CBC brass hulls with modern smokeless powders in current shotguns? I have a qty of used ones that came from a black powder guy, for both 12 gauge and 410 bore. Also fibre wads, overshot cards and a couple of antique roll crimpers. Latter were prob made for paper hulls I imagine. However, like OP above, I would be reluctant to crimp my brass in the interests of longevity. Overshot cards with glue or varnish would be my preference. Comments? Shotguns in both 12 and 410 are single barrel break action and pretty rugged.

They will be fine.

Brass is a lot stronger than Plastic

Not wanting to argue with you, however, all of my reading/research forever, and I have done a bit, is that the correct references are 12 gauge, 10 gauge, 20 gauge etc, but .410 Bore is the correct nomenclature for that particular calibre in a shotgun.

for example - https://smallboreshotgun.com/about/4...d-development/

It's 63 gauge. However i dont think many gun shops would know what you meant if you asked for a box of them.

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Originally Posted by Jhon

With apologies for hijacking thread...but those with relevant knowledge seem to be gathered...are there any reasons why not to use CBC brass hulls with modern smokeless powders in current shotguns? I have a qty of used ones that came from a black powder guy, for both 12 gauge and 410 bore. Also fibre wads, overshot cards and a couple of antique roll crimpers. Latter were prob made for paper hulls I imagine. However, like OP above, I would be reluctant to crimp my brass in the interests of longevity. Overshot cards with glue or varnish would be my preference. Comments? Shotguns in both 12 and 410 are single barrel break action and pretty rugged.

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look up @Wingmans thread on everlasting .410 shells

and MANY modern .12ga arent really .12ga anymore as they are overbored so closer to what was traditionally a .10ga

but correct they still fire same shells just have little if any forcing cone so pattern nicely and have lower pressure.......you can do same thing if making .410 insert for your larger shotgun....use same drill bit right through...its VERY close to 1/2" pipe diameter...but we wont go into how I know this or will be called redneck AGAIN....

Per the link above, the use of "bore" is a English/European tradition, "Gauge" being the more common American usage where 410 bore is often referred to as 410 Gauge by the uninitiated lol

its not a decimal point...its a bit of #12 lead shot that just rolled there.......seem to have lots of them around the place.....lol.......