Thread: See separation?

Originally Posted by Danny

That was an interesting read @Longranger
In your opinion how important is it to anneal brass? And when?

It is only important if you want accurate loaded brass. Annealing is essential if you FLS and want consistent headspace and neck perfection in both runout and interference fit on the projectile. I do anneal after every firing, but with a proper annealer. Otherwise just carry on and dispose of the brass when the neck splits, then get new annealed brass......by the way the first question needs addressing...why do the manufacturers anneal brass if they consider it an unnecessary step.....?

tahr....what you might try is annealing with a timer, a flame mounted on a movable stop, and a drill in a jig......spin the brass in the drill at the same place on the flame (preferably the body/shoulder junction and the heat will migrate to the neck) and after the necessary time remove the flame, undo the chuck and drop the case into water.....develop a system so the time, flame placement and drill speed are all consistent, and you will be good to go. I am presuming you know how to correctly headspace your brass after sizing......?

Originally Posted by Longranger

It is only important if you want accurate loaded brass. Annealing is essential if you FLS and want consistent headspace and neck perfection in both runout and interference fit on the projectile. I do anneal after every firing, but with a proper annealer. Otherwise just carry on and dispose of the brass when the neck splits, then get new annealed brass......by the way the first question needs addressing...why do the manufacturers anneal brass if they consider it an unnecessary step.....?

tahr....what you might try is annealing with a timer, a flame mounted on a movable stop, and a drill in a jig......spin the brass in the drill at the same place on the flame (preferably the body/shoulder junction and the heat will migrate to the neck) and after the necessary time remove the flame, undo the chuck and drop the case into water.....develop a system so the time, flame placement and drill speed are all consistent, and you will be good to go. I am presuming you know how to correctly headspace your brass after sizing......?

Excellent post, although it's not necessary to drop the case into water once annealed as it doesn't achieving anything of value unless you like drying out wet cases.

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

Excellent post, although it's not necessary to drop the case into water once annealed as it doesn't achieving anything of value unless you like drying out wet cases.

Well its all about mitigating risk.....I do that so the primers don't explode prematurely in my hand.....just kidding....!

Originally Posted by Longranger

It is only important if you want accurate loaded brass. Annealing is essential if you FLS and want consistent headspace and neck perfection in both runout and interference fit on the projectile. I do anneal after every firing, but with a proper annealer. Otherwise just carry on and dispose of the brass when the neck splits, then get new annealed brass......by the way the first question needs addressing...why do the manufacturers anneal brass if they consider it an unnecessary step.....?

tahr....what you might try is annealing with a timer, a flame mounted on a movable stop, and a drill in a jig......spin the brass in the drill at the same place on the flame (preferably the body/shoulder junction and the heat will migrate to the neck) and after the necessary time remove the flame, undo the chuck and drop the case into water.....develop a system so the time, flame placement and drill speed are all consistent, and you will be good to go. I am presuming you know how to correctly headspace your brass after sizing......?

Thanks for this. The head space thing is mystery to me -loaded thousands of rounds and never had a problem until this rifle so never had to worry about it.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Thanks for this. The head space thing is mystery to me -loaded thousands of rounds and never had a problem until this rifle so never had to worry about it.

Some actions allow easier determination of headspace than others.....the key is to strip the bolt so there is no spring resistance and insert a fire-formed case...there should be some resistance to closing the bolt. If that is so then measure with a headspace comparator and record that dimension.....this is a critical dimension to which all other re-sized cases must comply. Re-size to this dimension with the same comparator and test in the chamber.....if the bolt is harder to close than with a fire-formed case then reduce the dimension fractionally with your die until the bolt is closing without effort.....please note re-sizing will initially increase the length of your brass so it should be tight before you get the correct dimension.

My trick is to set the die clamp ring higher than needed, mark it and slowly lower it using the mark as an index until your brass has reached the correct dims....the clamp ring in this scenario is only a stop to ensure you don't go too far down....! In some instances it may be necessary to remove approx 0.025" or more from the base of the die to ensure the shell holder doesn't bottom out on the die before the case is properly sized....!

You also need to know what the internal dimension of those necks are before expanding them again......I would not like to see the die reducing the ID anymore than 0.281"...get another die if that is the result because they appear to be seriously over-worked. Good luck...!

Originally Posted by Longranger

Some actions allow easier determination of headspace than others.....the key is to strip the bolt so there is no spring resistance and insert a fire-formed case...there should be some resistance to closing the bolt. If that is so then measure with a headspace comparator and record that dimension.....this is a critical dimension to which all other re-sized cases must comply. Re-size to this dimension with the same comparator and test in the chamber.....if the bolt is harder to close than with a fire-formed case then reduce the dimension fractionally with your die until the bolt is closing without effort.....please note re-sizing will initially increase the length of your brass so it should be tight before you get the correct dimension.

My trick is to set the die clamp ring higher than needed, mark it and slowly lower it using the mark as an index until your brass has reached the correct dims....the clamp ring in this scenario is only a stop to ensure you don't go too far down....! In some instances it may be necessary to remove approx 0.025" or more from the base of the die to ensure the shell holder doesn't bottom out on the die before the case is properly sized....!

You also need to know what the internal dimension of those necks are before expanding them again......I would not like to see the die reducing the ID anymore than 0.281"...get another die if that is the result because they appear to be seriously over-worked. Good luck...!

Is it possible @Longranger that the cases that had neck separation are actually too long and the end of the neck is tight against the start of the lands ??. I made this mistake after stripping the bolt to find correct reference headspace as you describe and got so carried away I forgot to check case length until I got funny results with headspace. Just wonder what would happen if an overlength case was fired ?

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Is it possible @Longranger that the cases that had neck separation are actually too long and the end of the neck is tight against the start of the lands ??. I made this mistake after stripping the bolt to find correct reference headspace as you describe and got so carried away I forgot to check case length until I got funny results with headspace. Just wonder what would happen if an overlength case was fired ?

No the chamber has a step from the neck to the freebore and there is no way the neck can be near the lands in a bottle neck case...could happen with pistol brass though.

Don't know what would happen but I guess if the case needs to gain some length there would be an adverse reaction...yes that is why I questioned the "shiny" end of the neck...if it is too long there should have been some difficulty loading the round into the breech and if so the reason should be determined....as previously mentioned this exercise should be performed when full length sizing brass AND with loaded rounds to ensure the projectile length is appropriate AND the neck has clearance in the chamber....no more accidents so don't do this after a beer at dinner time....THE FIRING PIN MUST BE OUT AND JUST THE BOLT BODY IN THE ACTION..... Check the overall neck OD of a loaded round and compare with an unsized fire-formed case which will be approx 0.001" smaller than the chamber.....the loaded dimension difference should be at LEAST the fired case OD (this dim is for highly skilled reloaders capable of accurately measuring and maintaining that dim) up to some factory chambers your guess, but I would suggest no more than 0.010" ie 0.004" on my SAUM

However I and still confused about how the neck came to be on the projectile...was it before firing or can I ask..... after firing....?

One should always check max length of the case neck portion of the chamber with the appropriate gauge to know what max trim length should be......how do you know what to trim too otherwise....?

Let us not forget that every chamber reamer has a different result...the same reamer in the hands of different operators will give different results because of barrel steel, lubrication, feed speeds, and or not polishing.....it is up to the reloader to make their brass fit that chamber accurately and in order to do so they must determine certain critical dimensions, and maintain them....enough from me....!

Originally Posted by Longranger

No the chamber has a step from the neck to the freebore and there is no way the neck can be near the lands in a bottle neck case...could happen with pistol brass though.

Don't know what would happen but I guess if the case needs to gain some length there would be an adverse reaction...yes that is why I questioned the "shiny" end of the neck...if it is too long there should have been some difficulty loading the round into the breech and if so the reason should be determined....as previously mentioned this exercise should be performed when full length sizing brass AND with loaded rounds to ensure the projectile length is appropriate AND the neck has clearance in the chamber....no more accidents so don't do this after a beer at dinner time....THE FIRING PIN MUST BE OUT AND JUST THE BOLT BODY IN THE ACTION..... Check the overall neck OD of a loaded round and compare with an unsized fire-formed case which will be approx 0.001" smaller than the chamber.....the loaded dimension difference should be at LEAST the fired case OD (this dim is for highly skilled reloaders capable of accurately measuring and maintaining that dim) up to some factory chambers your guess, but I would suggest no more than 0.010" ie 0.004" on my SAUM

However I and still confused about how the neck came to be on the projectile...was it before firing or can I ask..... after firing....?

One should always check max length of the case neck portion of the chamber with the appropriate gauge to know what max trim length should be......how do you know what to trim too otherwise....?

Let us not forget that every chamber reamer has a different result...the same reamer in the hands of different operators will give different results because of barrel steel, lubrication, feed speeds, and or not polishing.....it is up to the reloader to make their brass fit that chamber accurately and in order to do so they must determine certain critical dimensions, and maintain them....enough from me....!

I had an issue with a 6.5x57AI and Allen Carr did the above to show me excessive head space, it was way out, he had to manufacture and insert some sort of brass collar from memory shot great afterwards. Turkish intermediate length Mauser.

Originally Posted by nor-west

I had an issue with a 6.5x57AI and Allen Carr did the above to show me excessive head space, it was way out, he had to manufacture and insert some sort of brass collar from memory shot great afterwards. Turkish intermediate length Mauser.

The Bartlein on this rifle was reamed by Mitch with a brand new standard spec reamer so I would be very surprised if the case problem has arisen from the 'smithing.