Sierras new Game changer bullets

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Originally Posted by 300_BLK

.... NZ Ammunition Company supplied me with some H1000 powder manufactured by Hodgdons to try which is very close in burn rate to AR2217...

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According to ADI, AR2217 is H1000 relabelled by Hodgdon.

Thank you for your enquiry with regard to reloading using ADI Sporting powders.
ADI Powders manufacture powders that are distributed exclusively in North America by the Hodgdon Powder Company.
Please find attached a listing of the ADI Powders and their Hodgdon Powder naming.
Extreme caution should be taken and loads should be worked up accordingly. Refer to our website at Home - ADI World Class Powders and Ammunition or our 9th edition handloaders’ guide for more information, warnings and reloading safety.
We thank you for using ADI Sporting Powders.
Yours sincerely,
ADI Technical Centre.

ADI Powder-Hodgdon / IMR naming
Trail Boss-Trail Boss
AR2207-H4198
AR2219-H322
BM2-Benchmark
Bench Mark 8208-8208 XBR
AR2206H-H4895
AR2208-Varget
AR2209-H4350
AR2213H / AR2213SC-H4831 / H4831SC
AR2217-H1000
AR2225-Retumbo
AR2218-H50BMG

I've tried H4350 and AR2209 in my 6.5 CM and they both produced identical velocities on my Labradar. The H4350 container had "Manufactured in Australia" in small print on the label.

An update on some recent discussion with Sierra about the 90gr 6mm GameChanger. I have a good friend in the UK who has just spent a small fortune trying to get these to work in his Tikka, and he asked for some help. I'd been in touch with Sierra before, so I asked some questions...

On the Sierra blog (https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2018/0...-gamechangers/) a reader asked the question we all want to know the answer to:

Attachment 109924

I calculated stability for the typical 1:10" .243 barrel using the JBM calculator, using a value of 0.14" for the plastic tip length. It returned a Miller value of 1.276, which is just below the stability threshold of 1.3. MilSpec stability is 1.5, and a stability value between 1.3 - 1.5 is classed as "marginal" as per the Litz / Berger definition. So my conclusion was that Sierra was flirting with poor accuracy in a wide range of factory .243s with 1:10" twist barrels.

In the US market, the .243 Winchester rifle market is dominated by Remington (1:9⅛") and Savage (1:9¼"). Surprise surprise, these barrels achieve a Miller value of 1.5 with the 90gr GameChanger.

So to my mind, the statement in the Sierra blog by Duane Siercks was misleading. Well, you could suggest its plain wrong.

So I asked his colleague Philip Mahin about this. Mr Mahin said "I have heard both sides of the fence with our new 90gr TGK in a 1-10” twist, some say it works great and others can’t get accuracy because of borderline stability. I do know that a 1-9” twist will stabilize it just fine so it may need to be used in a different firearm [to the 1:10"]".

Eh?

I then took a look at the new Sierra load data app. Sierra has changed something quite fundamental on their .243 Winchester page.

Attachment 109925

Gone is the 1:9⅛ Remington test rifle, replaced by a "universal" 1:8" barrel. I pointed out to the Sierra tech that it is not possible to buy a factory .243 rifle with a 1:8" barrel (their may be one specialist option, but no standard "off the shelf" options from the normal manufacturers.

Attachment 109926

I didn't hear back.

To my mind Sierra is fudging the numbers and presenting a bullet to market that has a high chance of not working in a large number of factory rifles.

It is also worth pointing out that in the past, Sierra has clearly communicated twist requirements on their website, and packaging. There's no mention of required twist rate for the 90gr GameChanger.

Why would they do this?

It will be very very interesting to see (next month) what the Hornady ELD-X 90gr is like in the .243 Win 1:10", as the bullet is slightly shorter, and has a Miller value of... 1.5. Ha!

I've posted this to help get the message out that if you spend $92 on a box of 6mm GameChangers for your 1:10" twist .243 Win, you may well find that they don't work. If you want to try them, I strongly suggest you buy a sample pack first.

yep, sounds a bit dodgey & there's no point in Sierra fudging the data or info provided to shooters 'cos we will find out the truth and word-of-mouth marketing is the strongest impact on customer purchase decisions.
BTW - what about their 7mm and 30 cal 165 gn pills ? Any good for close to intermediate ranges (50 - 500 yrds) ?

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Originally Posted by chainsaw

yep, sounds a bit dodgey & there's no point in Sierra fudging the data or info provided to shooters 'cos we will find out the truth and word-of-mouth marketing is the strongest impact on customer purchase decisions.
BTW - what about their 7mm and 30 cal 165 gn pills ? Any good for close to intermediate ranges (50 - 500 yrds) ?

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Check out BlackWatch on instagram. Some real world testing on expansion/ weight retention vs velocity for the 165 gr 30 cal. projectiles.
B

@shift14 thanks for that I joined Instagram just to take a look... far out they blow massive holes in fallow deer for sure, way too much bullet for those little critters. Way too much damage. I belong to the school of thought that says you want the energy expended inside of the animal and not in the neighbouring country.

Very interesting that 1800fps bullet, the complete lack of expansion does not tally with what the Sierra tech told me, which was that they had tested it down to that velocity with complete expansion.

Will have a chat with the fella at Blackwatch, he's been very approachable in the past would be good to have a conversation about these bullets.

I've managed to get them to shoot ok 1'' or less in a standard .243 barrel (1-10" Tikka). Did have to change powder from the ever reliable 2209 in the .243 to N160 but its done the job.

That's good to hear @Dreamer. Have you had the chance to test accuracy at longer range? Like 300m? 400m? Its possible that a marginally stable bullet (which this is) could start to miss behave quite badly as it slows down, pitching and yawing and increasingly drag. There is a video out there somewhere of the results of this with one of the Bergers shot from a barrel with a marginal twist rate. Good 100m accuracy but really shit down range. It might not matter if you are not planning on shooting stuff at close range though.

@Flyblown shot this group at 400yds this morning bare in mind I haven’t got the rifle sighted in for these and should have used my bigger plate but the first shot hit top left corner then the 2 to the right at the top so they seem to stabilise fine for me.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ff39ecd3ed.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's excellent. So it does appear true, what the Sierra technician said, some 1:10" barrels will, some won't.

This is one of the best results I've seen on the web for the 90gr 6mm bullet.

Bloody good advert for Tikkas as well.

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Originally Posted by Flyblown

That's excellent. So it does appear true, what the Sierra technician said, some 1:10" barrels will, some won't.

This is one of the best results I've seen on the web for the 90gr 6mm bullet.

Bloody good advert for Tikkas as well.

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It's actually a secondhand gunworks fluted tikka barrel screwed on to a Sako A2 in a Ken Henderson stock so a bit of a cross breed :thumbsup: Soon to be rebarreled with a 1-8" bartlien chambered in 6mm creedmoor though.

Have just worked up a load with the 130gn G/C in my 260 carbonlite, 20” barrel and got 2860fps with Superformance. One trip to the range for a ladder test, then another for some groups..done, very easy. Be interestingly to see how they go on deer.

Guys, Check out the new Sierra App. Pretty cool

Bit of an update to this thread guys.
After a year of using the Game Changes myself, and developing a tonne of custom loads with them. 6.5-30 cals. They have proven to be an exceptional bullet.
I haven't developed a load that shoots more than 1/2 MOA and have had several go 1/4.
Performance on Game is exactly what you expect from an expanding bullet. I keep telling guys, in summary, the perform like an accubond, but are generally more accurate, and have a better BC.
I have not loaded 6mm, but have heard tighter twists are required.

I'm looking forward to the day Sierra release heavy options in 30 and 6.5 cals!

Please feel free to email me at info@blackwatchreloading if I can offer any advive from personal experience. Cheers

My only experience is with the 6.5 130gr GC from a Schultz and Larsen 6.5-284. The load I developed produced groups of .24 MOA at 100m that still hold .44 MOA at 400m. So far the only Red Stag I have shot with them was at 300m and I hit him in the neck about 100mm below the head. The exit hole measured about 23mm.
Tech

@300AAC On your Instagram those are some pretty massive exit wound holes on those smaller deer, eh.

A couple are @Flyblown. Different to a Berger explosion. Like i say, more like a accubond. They drop them big time

Attachment 111934

Thank you to @shift14 for sending us this from his recent shoot. I'd call it a day there mate!!

Must take the 243 out for a walk and try the 90 gr GC bullets, trouble is I like the ELD X range so much it's hard to not take one of the rifles shooting those bullets. Still keen to try the 90 gr ELD X when available … any news on this one yet?

Sorry @Mooseman only the 103gr ATM

T

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Originally Posted by 300AAC

Thank you to @shift14 for sending us this from his recent shoot. I'd call it a day there mate!!

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All good, thanks for your help.

Pic of the plate, 590 yds. All Sierra GameChangers. 7mmRM Blaser R8 group lower left

Attachment 111938

6.5x55 in the mighty Blaser R8 upper and lower right groups....sloppy shooting on my part.

B

I spoke to Steve's wholesale last week @Mooseman... they aren't in the current shipment so earliest would be late June. Annoying!

Thanks for that, hope to get an animal with the Game Changers in the mean time.

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Originally Posted by 300AAC

A couple are @Flyblown. Different to a Berger explosion. Like i say, more like a accubond. They drop them big time

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I'm sure they do drop them with exit wounds like that. As a meat hunter I want a bullet to do all the damage internally and preferably not somewhere in the neighbouring district. The GameChanger looks like a very good large game (150kg+++) bullet but gut feel is in 6mm and 6.5mm a softer fragmenting bullet is a better option for fast killing. What has changed in deer design that needs a harder bullet than ProHunter or GameKing?!

Plenty of other options out there for you then @Flyblown... Sounds like you are more than happy with your current selection of pro hunters and gamekings, which, by the way, are legendary bullets! Why not stick with what works for you? Of course what works for you isn't always someone else's cup of tea.
I think you'll find the reason for the discussion on this forum, and this thread in particular, is for those guy's looking for real world experience's of something a bit different.

Cheers

J

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Originally Posted by 300AAC

I think you'll find the reason for the discussion on this forum, and this thread in particular, is for those guy's looking for real world experience's of something a bit different.

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A bit different to what Jared?

Look I see what you're saying, but I just don't buy the underlying design premise that a high BC, hard, controlled expansion style bullet is a great idea, that changes any games. The high bc only helps >400-500m or whatever the relevant range is for the calibre and weight you're looking at. This bullet on our deer at extended ranges - if shot placement isn't spot on - is just going to sail straight through and a lot of the energy is lost. We can agree that proper long range shooting with hard bullets isn't a good idea?

I put my hand up - no, I haven't used them. Happy to be shot down for that reason alone. I can see you're very pro Sierra with a lot of interaction from them on your Instagram, promoting the brand. I love Sierra bullets and have used them for over 30 years, and I think I do know the reason for this thread in particular... to discuss pros and cons of new designs and risks and hopefully sharing a bit of real world experiences with all sorts of bullet designs in specific applications. Some of us will agree that the new kid on the block must be great across the board, others will be quite skeptical, like you were about the ELD-X!

I'm struggling to see what exactly what you are trying to get out of this discussion @Flyblown. It is getting to the point where it feels like you are just posting for the sake of it.
You speak of the bullet making to large of a wound, yet you are concerned of it pin holing? This bullet is not a Barnes. They expand and expand quickly.
You don't think an increased BC is a factor until 500+ yards?.. I would revisit my ballistic charts and consider climate conditions and bullet velocity on a shot of that distance before making a statement like that..

You obviously have strong opinions on a product, by your own admission you have never used...
You have researched the product via promotional material, and social media posts. Again drawing your own conclusions from those posts.
My suggestion to you is if you are so interested in having a strong opinion on any product, try it for yourself, and draw your own conclusions. Then if you still feel the need to voice, your then substantiated conclusions for discussion on a public forum, by all means, fill your boots.

Sierra is not an exclusive product to BlackWatch. Its sold all over the world..
I do like the Game Changers. I am also pro Berger's, Nosler, Federal, Hornady, Barnes and even Swift! I am pro any product that does what it's designed to do, and does it well.

There are so many strengths of so many designs. There is no "one magic bullet' if that is what you are looking for here??

That is the beauty of tailoring the round a rifle for what you want to achieve. You are only limited by your personal skill and knowledge of reloading.
I take a huge amount of pride in the quality of the products I promote and use at BlackWatch, and providing our customers with absolutely honest, real-world experiences, feedback, and where possible, advice. I'm not force feeding you anything. If you don't like it... the answer is simple...

I quite like the colour of the tips. They go well with my latest cammo outfit.

Its all good Jared. Always good to have someone with a strong opinion on stuff to argue with. You are welcome to your view, I will stick with mine, which is based on a little more than just social media and promotional material. Just please make sure you don't make it too personal, no need for that.

@Flyblown you might be interested in this.
Rather then starting a new post this is my results using the sako 7mmRM 165GR Sierra's GameChanger
All i want is a 0 -600m gun doing my bit. With the ammo and reloading shortage i have ended starting with a box of hornady precision ammo and had some good results from a neck shot a 10y to a poor shot at 520y (me not reading drop chart properly resulting in a high shot just under the spin) a couple big body reds at 250y dropping on the spot. Also a couple of not so good shots from my young fella. 1 320y shot drifting a little far back and animal running 100m, also another 200y steep decline and bullet going down front shoulder going 40y requiring a second shot but losing a lot of blood.Also a couple 400y bang flop goats goat and a few deer in between
The eldx doing a lot of damage and 75% projectile staying in the animal

Wanting some cases for latter on i can get some one to reload for me i change over to the sako 165gr Sierra's (i was told sako brass better then hornady for reloading)
My best shot to date is at 480y on a very big red hind going through both shoulders dropping on the spot leaving a inch exit hole.
A red yearling at 400y going through both front shoulders exiting into the hinds neck standing behind it cutting its throat, both animals needed finishing off.
And a neck shot on a fallow at 200y and other red deer in between 200y -400y all in the front quarter of the animals. A couple of bad bullet placements on a couple not going far,ten meters and one very poor shot by myself at around 400y resulting in a lost animal no blood and nothing to go on.
On all animals the Sierra projectile has exited the animal with no more then a inch exit hole still doing damage.


I am a hunting no a target shooter:) and have no idea about reloading but not far away from having enough components to be able to start looking at getting reloading done.